←2009-03 2009-04 2009-05→ ↑2009 ↑all
2009-04-01
00:00:50 <nooga> do not worry
00:01:03 <nooga> i'm too poor for Apple ;d
00:01:11 <ehird> well you said myriad pro yesterday so :-)
00:01:17 <nooga> ;p
00:02:35 <nooga> oh dear
00:02:43 <nooga> it's 1st april
00:02:50 <nooga> prank time >:D
00:04:16 <oerjan> no it's not, they decided to cancel it
00:04:24 <nooga> ;p
00:04:35 <nooga> who decided?
00:05:00 <oerjan> some UN time organization
00:05:25 <ehird> <me> ... My father just died
00:05:25 <ehird> <friend> ...
00:05:27 <ehird> <me> APRIL FIRST INTERNET JACKASS DAY HAHAHAHAHA
00:05:29 <ehird> My work for today is done.
00:05:40 * oerjan swats ehird -----###
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00:07:35 <nooga> heheheh
00:07:48 <ehird> (I really said that)
00:07:54 <ehird> (I kind of feel sorry for them now)
00:08:05 <ehird> (Naw)
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00:18:19 <nooga> heheehe
00:25:11 <nooga> what's .v extension for?
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00:25:28 <ehird> nooga: ?
00:26:21 <nooga> file extension
00:26:46 <ehird> in what ctx
00:27:25 <nooga> it appears that it's not popularly used, so i'll take it
00:27:34 <ehird> oh
00:27:37 <ehird> nooga: don't take one file exts
00:27:39 <ehird> as a general rul
00:27:40 <ehird> e
00:27:45 <ehird> whuz your lang called?
00:28:01 <nooga> does it matter?:>
00:28:05 <ehird> yarr
00:28:10 <ehird> I am the extension wizard of wizardry
00:28:25 <nooga> hmm
00:28:39 <oerjan> hm didn't cvs use it for its files, i have this vague recall...
00:28:52 <ehird> oerjan: what
00:28:53 <nooga> i think it can be called vodka
00:28:58 <oerjan> ehird: .v
00:29:02 <ehird> ah yes
00:29:05 <ehird> yes cvs does use .v
00:29:24 <ehird> nooga: .vd, .vk, .va, .vka, or .vodka (because shortening extensions is so ghetto)
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00:30:00 <nooga> and i will end like java with all those .class .java .omigoshImSooLong
00:30:38 <nooga> .ftw ;d
00:30:46 <ehird> nooga: or you'll just end up with ".vodka" and ".o" and "" because you use standard file extensions
00:31:09 <nooga> myProgram.ftw
00:31:13 <ehird> oh, maybe .llvm if you add a "dump llvm asm" option
00:32:03 <oerjan> for the wodka
00:32:38 <ehird> nooga: anyway you have a 1 in 26 chance of .v not being taken
00:32:39 <ehird> not good
00:32:59 <ehird> two chars, 676. by 3 chars (17576) you might as well just use ".vodka" and stop being silly
00:32:59 <ehird> :P
00:33:13 <nooga> or maybe
00:33:13 <Sgeo> Is http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/132464 a useful article?
00:33:22 <oerjan> 1 in 26? i'm not sure i agree with that statistic
00:33:31 <ehird> Sgeo: why do you have Conficker?
00:33:35 <nooga> how about .
00:33:42 <ehird> oerjan: one alphabteical char
00:33:42 <Sgeo> ehird, I don't think I do, but I want to be safe
00:33:50 <ehird> Sgeo: stop using windows
00:33:56 <ehird> that's a very safe move
00:34:09 <oerjan> ehird: there is no reason why exactly one should be vacant, or any for that matter
00:34:25 <ehird> oerjan: er?
00:34:31 <nooga> hehe
00:34:50 <ehird> nooga: use .ex
00:34:50 <nooga> skeletal machines in Poland started to crash
00:34:50 <ehird> e
00:34:53 <ehird> or .bat
00:35:04 <ehird> or .dll or .sys
00:35:06 <nooga> i've got 75% packet loss on some routes
00:35:17 <nooga> ehird: maybe .pickle or .cig
00:35:19 <nooga> ;p
00:35:36 <oerjan> ehird: <ehird> nooga: anyway you have a 1 in 26 chance of .v not being taken <<< there is absolutely no logic in that, even if there are 26 letters
00:35:41 <ehird> nooga: v.filename
00:35:45 <ehird> oerjan: err ok
00:35:52 <nooga> ah, i thought about that
00:36:20 <nooga> ha
00:36:37 <nooga> maybe an esolang that uses folders for flow control
00:36:45 <nooga> and filenames for instructions
00:36:56 <ehird> been done
00:37:01 <ehird> by the gimmick master gerson kurz
00:37:25 <ehird> nooga: http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/gplz/gplz_slash.html
00:37:33 <nooga> :P
00:38:00 <oerjan> nooga: i understand from wikipedia .pl is one of the domains the conficker uses for updates
00:39:28 <oerjan> or tries to, they disabled new registrations of the affected subdomains
00:41:12 <Sgeo> Couldn't it just use .com? I can't imagine anyone disabling new registrations for that
00:41:55 <oerjan> they might, it's not _all_ .pl addresses just the ones generated by conficker's algorithm
00:41:57 <nooga> conficker
00:42:01 <nooga> smonficker
00:43:21 <nooga> from static code analisis it appears that the almighty conficker has got something like if(keyboard_layout == ukrainian) exit(0);
00:43:38 <ehird> nooga: lol wut
00:43:45 <nooga> sec, i'll find it
00:43:46 <nooga> ;d
00:43:51 * Sgeo is going to use the Sysmantec tools
00:43:53 <Sgeo> BBL
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00:44:05 <ehird> sgeo and viruses are so irritating
00:44:22 <ehird> "SHOULD I USE THIS IS THIS GOOD OH I USED TO USE LINUX BUT THEN I STARTED USING WINDOWS SO I COULD ASK YOU LOT ABOUT VIRUSES SOME MORE"
00:45:02 <nooga> http://mtc.sri.com/Conficker/
00:45:28 <nooga> even now, when i cannot use linux...
00:45:38 <nooga> cygwin is the only hope
00:46:17 <nooga> i feel so calm when i see mintty window
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00:49:46 <ehird> from sys import*;t=p=1;s,i,j=stdout,open(argv[1], 'r'),open(argv[2], 'r')
00:49:47 <ehird> while(t and p):t,p=i.read(1),j.read(1);t and p and s.write(chr(ord(t)^ord(p)))
00:49:53 <ehird> ↑ illegal to export from the usa
00:51:07 <nooga> ekhm?
00:51:21 <ehird> under the crypto legislature
00:51:27 <ehird> munitions
00:53:58 <nooga> ah
00:54:16 <nooga> sick
00:55:05 <ehird> nooga: am i right in thinking you were here in the early days?
00:55:11 <ehird> i seem to recall your name from the logs maybe
00:56:59 <nooga> mhm
00:57:10 <nooga> i designed this pseudo esolang called SADOL
00:57:14 <nooga> in 2005
00:57:36 <nooga> and landed here
00:57:53 <ehird> SADOL!
00:57:55 <ehird> I rememer dat
00:58:12 <nooga> :f
00:58:38 <ehird> :n
00:58:59 <nooga> :
00:59:26 <ehird> :☺
00:59:27 <nooga> huh
00:59:31 <ehird> The Hofstader smiley
00:59:35 <ehird> *hofstadter
00:59:38 <nooga> is my terminal utf-8?
00:59:45 <nooga> bcs i can't see ;d
00:59:47 <nooga> łóń
00:59:51 <ehird> Is this an interrobang‽
01:00:27 <nooga> 01:58 < ehird> :n
01:00:27 <nooga> 01:58 < nooga> :³
01:00:33 <nooga> damn\
01:00:33 <ehird> :☺
01:00:39 <ehird> ⌃⌥⌘⇧
01:00:45 <ehird> ←→↑↓↖↗↙↘
01:01:16 <nooga> ah just broken this shiit
01:01:59 <nooga>
01:02:02 <nooga> :C
01:02:09 <ehird> just broken that shit man
01:02:38 <nooga> yea, i accidentaly the whole thing ;d
01:03:11 <nooga> did i mention that vodka will be self altering? ;d
01:03:44 <ehird> nooga: stop stealin' mah ideas
01:05:33 <nooga> but it will be lame self alternation(?)
01:05:43 <ehird> alteration
01:05:47 <nooga> ah
01:09:39 <nooga> ffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu
01:09:48 <ehird> wut
01:10:01 <nooga> my driving license was in a bowl of week old soup
01:10:22 <ehird> :D
01:10:23 <nooga> i guess it's time to clean that room
01:17:06 <ehird> 05:46:56 <Taaus> 'taus is my favorite actress and singer' o_O
01:17:06 <ehird> 05:48:55 <lament> O_o
01:17:09 <ehird> — 2003-01-21
01:17:24 <ehird> 13:25:38 <exarkun> This is the boringest channel evar
01:17:24 <ehird> 13:25:58 --- part: exarkun left #esoteric
01:17:44 <nooga> wanna see how rad i am?
01:17:48 <ehird> maybe
01:18:17 <nooga> then i must ask you a question
01:18:26 <ehird> oh no
01:18:51 <nooga> on which side should be the steering wheel in a car?
01:19:16 <ehird> nooga: both, neither, or middle
01:19:39 <nooga> beep, wrong answer
01:20:18 <ehird> what is the right answer
01:21:23 <nooga> LEFT
01:21:33 <nooga> left is thee right
01:21:35 <nooga> answer
01:22:01 <nooga> damn
01:22:07 <nooga> got to go
01:22:54 <ehird> omg the logs are censored
01:22:58 <ehird> see 03.13.13
01:24:20 <nooga> bbl
01:26:04 <ehird> 18:52:30 <dbc> "We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people."
01:26:05 <ehird> 18:52:51 <dbc> Well, that's nice to know. Now I can stop worrying and go back to my normal life in a pleasant city without bombs falling on it.
01:26:08 <ehird> 18:55:13 <dbc> With the assurance that our leaders are acting only from the purest of motives, in the interest of all mankind.
01:26:11 <ehird> — 2003-03-21
01:26:56 <ehird> "How many more senseless Brainf*ck variations must we endure? Didn't we learn anything from 'Ook'?"
01:27:07 <ehird> — 2003-04-06
01:28:22 <oerjan> indeed we should stop aping Ook
01:30:23 <ehird> andreou: in these logs you proliferate ;-)
01:30:30 <ehird> all we need now is mooz, navigator, Aardappel
01:30:34 <ehird> and Tauus
01:30:37 <ehird> Taaus
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02:00:40 <Sgeo> Downadup == Conflicker?
02:01:36 <oerjan> s/l//
02:02:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conficker
03:02:04 <nooga> do you ever sleep?
03:08:07 <lament> do you ever plip?
03:11:22 <nooga> forget it
03:13:00 <oerjan> plipping is considered extremely taboo in poland
03:16:08 <nooga> i don't even know what it is ;d
03:16:27 <oerjan> that's how taboo it is
03:16:59 <oerjan> i would strongly suggest you _don't_ ask any of your relatives
03:18:46 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM this is quite taboo here, that's why i go to germany for parties ;D
03:19:27 <oerjan> wikipedia is really overdoing it today
03:20:38 <oerjan> in all the main page sections as far as i can see
03:20:58 <lament> wow, that page has too many photos
03:22:01 <nooga> :o
03:23:28 <lament> oerjan: hm, it's pretty great
03:24:24 <nooga> ?
03:24:40 <nooga> omg i'm tired
03:25:09 <nooga> bed calls me
03:26:22 <nooga> bbl
03:42:45 <Sgeo> oerjan, you wanted that "going through walls" demo?
03:43:40 <oerjan> Sgeo: huh?
03:43:58 <Sgeo> Someone wanted me to prove that at high enough speeds, you go through walls in SL
03:44:08 <oerjan> not me
03:44:27 <oerjan> never been on SL
03:47:47 * Sgeo penetrates a 10m thick wall
03:54:17 <oerjan> no chance of getting stuck inside? (or squashed for that matter)
03:55:06 <lament> that's what she said
04:04:10 <Sgeo> oerjan, not if I set my destination distance large enough (I made a script that pulls me to a distance ahead of me on my command. Penetrates walls very easily)
04:05:11 <oerjan> erm, i mean, is it possible to get stuck inside?
04:11:58 <Sgeo> oerjan, um, not sure
04:12:07 <Sgeo> I once made a device that followed people
04:12:12 * oerjan cackles evilly
04:12:12 <Sgeo> The physics made the avatar try to leave
04:12:20 <Sgeo> But the device kept the avatar inside it
04:12:26 <Sgeo> So they'd keep moving around
04:12:38 <Sgeo> But that changed with H4
04:12:50 <Sgeo> (Havok 4)
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06:59:55 <fizzie> Actually CVS (by way of RCS) uses ",v" and not ".v" as the file extension, so that's not really a reason not to do .v.
07:04:31 <fizzie> Apparently Verilog does .v, though.
07:07:59 <fizzie> And why is a black dragon scale mail considered taboo in Poland? Strange.
07:52:43 <bsmntbombdood> I DON"T LIKE CVS CUZ LINUS SEAID IZ BAD
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10:38:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, <fizzie> Actually CVS (by way of RCS) uses ",v" and not ".v" as the file extension, so that's not really a reason not to do .v. <-- err this seems very random without the context (which I can't find in scrollback)
10:39:59 <fizzie> There was some talk about nooga using the file extension .v for his language. Or something.
10:40:14 <fizzie> And ehird said CVS uses .v.
10:41:05 <fizzie> Or oerjan, actually.
10:41:25 <AnMaster> mhm
10:42:02 <fizzie> "<oerjan> hm didn't cvs use it for its files, i have this vague recall..."; ehird just agreed. I missed that when quickly glancing through the scrollback.
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10:58:05 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/tisp/
11:00:19 <Deewiant> I'd managed to miss that one
11:01:32 <Deewiant> http://mail.google.com/mail/help/customtime/
11:03:48 <fizzie> TiSP sounds like I've seen it before; was it some previous year's thing?
11:05:08 <fizzie> "The term "Every time" is used loosely here to represent the number 10." That one I hadn't seen.
11:08:48 <Deewiant> It's 2007s
11:08:53 <Deewiant> The latter is today's
11:09:00 <fizzie> Okay.
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11:50:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/index.html <-- maybe 1 April joke too, see google image search page
11:51:42 <AnMaster> http://images.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi to be specific
11:53:13 <Deewiant> Yes, it is
11:54:21 <lifthras1ir> she is cuuute!
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11:54:41 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/mail/help/autopilot/index.html too
11:56:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is usually one linked on the main page too, can't find that yet this year though
11:57:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.google.com/xhtml links to CADIE
11:57:41 <Deewiant> I saw that earlier today on my phone but forgot about it
11:57:56 <AnMaster> hm indeed
11:58:02 <AnMaster> but not plain google.comn
11:58:04 <AnMaster> com*
11:58:46 <Deewiant> Well, that's something that plain google.com redirects to
11:59:02 <Deewiant> The 'plainest' is google.com/ncr and yes, that's empty
12:00:32 <fizzie> And the street view icon in the corner-map, which used to be a stylized human, is today a panda.
12:01:02 <Deewiant> Yes, I suppose there'll be semi-hidden pandas all over the place today as a result of CADIE.
12:01:16 <fizzie> She sure likes them pandas.
12:01:25 <Asztal_> there's http://www.google.com.au/intl/en/gball/ too.
12:01:30 <Deewiant> I just don't use Google's services that much so I probably won't find any.
12:04:45 <fizzie> What is funny is that since http://www.google.com/latitude/intro.html uses some sort of IP geo-location to pick up the map (here centered at Helsinki, with almost 50 % water) and then randomly places those three buddy icons on it, most of the time at least one of them is in the middle of the sea somewhere.
12:05:31 <fizzie> Not related to today at all, of course.
12:06:59 <Asztal_> Interesting... it just says New York for me. (It manages to get one in a river, though)
12:09:22 <Deewiant> New York here as well: refreshing a couple of times shows that there's almost always at least one in a river
12:13:01 <Deewiant> Re. Conficker: "omg - I'm in the UK and it's chaos here. rioting int eh streets. thewiuyre stompinwig on m6y keuiboard"
12:13:15 <Deewiant> That last sentence made me chuckle a bit
12:28:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, google.com doesn't redirect here?
12:28:33 <AnMaster> maybe because I'm logged in on gmail
12:28:49 <AnMaster> (it says I'm logged in in the upper corner of the main page too)
12:28:57 <AnMaster> upper right*
12:40:49 <AnMaster> <fizzie> What is funny is that since http://www.google.com/latitude/intro.html uses some sort of IP geo-location to pick up the map (here centered at Helsinki, with almost 50 % water) and then randomly places those three buddy icons on it, most of the time at least one of them is in the middle of the sea somewhere. <-- I end up in New York in that. Which language do you use for google?
12:40:56 <AnMaster> maybe it depends on that?
12:44:06 <AnMaster> oh maybe because I was using Opera Mini on my phone to check it. It proxies or something iirc
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12:44:48 <AnMaster> (is that a joke one btw, it looks serious in fact?)
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14:13:48 <fizzie> I use the "google.com in English" links always, although it doesn't seem to stick that way without cookies.
14:13:53 <fizzie> Latitude is no joke, no.
14:21:26 <fizzie> Apparently google code search examples are also in lolcode today. There's probably a list of all this stuff somewhere.
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16:23:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ O_o
16:23:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, just strange. Too far fetched.
16:23:57 <AnMaster> ais523, so new ick beta released? :)
16:24:18 <ais523> not yet
16:24:23 <ais523> still trying to fix the build system
16:24:25 * oerjan liked it in a twisted way
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16:32:22 <ais523> [16:31] <ais523> how is #IRP so busy, anyway? Did somebody link to it?
16:32:23 <ais523> [16:32] <piotrek> I have lecture about it now
16:32:25 <ais523> [16:32] <Saviq> syntax error
16:32:42 <oerjan> O_o
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17:06:46 <AnMaster> bbl
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18:20:33 <ehird> oh god @ reddit.com
18:21:03 <lament> hahaha
18:21:25 <ehird> google's april fool: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/cadie-awakens.html
18:21:35 <ehird> http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/ oh god
18:24:13 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/ oh god
18:24:23 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/ aaaaaaaaaaaaaa
18:24:30 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/wtf/ How 90s
18:25:52 <Sgeo> ehird, you're saying Fark's layout is 90s?
18:25:58 <ehird> Sgeo: fark is 90s
18:26:16 <ehird> http://identi.ca/ lol
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18:28:05 <ehird> http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/apr/01/guardian-twitter-media-technology
18:29:43 * Sgeo is putting up fake Facebook statuses
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18:32:58 <ehird> Sgeo: master of comedy.
18:33:00 <ehird> What did conficker do?
18:33:20 <Sgeo> ehird, afaik, nothing
18:33:26 <ehird> brilliant
18:34:26 <Sgeo> Hm, does the Chrome 3d executable actually do anything interesting?
18:35:09 <Sgeo> Or is it just Chrome?
18:37:38 <lifthrasiir> that's different from ordinary chrome, but not too different.
18:38:44 <Sgeo> There is in fact a 3d button
18:39:53 <Sgeo> And it does in fact make the page into 3d colors. If you had 3d glasses, you'd probably see the page stick either into or out of the monitor, not sure whic
18:39:55 <Sgeo> which
18:40:36 <Sgeo> Even the scroll bars are affected
18:43:15 <fizzie> I don't think it's "3d colors", really, based on this one screenshot.
18:43:30 <Sgeo> What is it?
18:44:05 <fizzie> For one thing, there are three copies of any single element, and I don't have three eyes.
18:44:26 <Sgeo> I think that's how normal 3d colors works
18:44:34 <Sgeo> And where'd you get that screenshot?
18:44:39 <FireFly> Mind the date
18:44:44 <ehird> Sgeo: screeny?
18:44:46 <ehird> fizzie: no shit sherlock
18:44:52 <ehird> er
18:44:53 <ehird> FireFly:
18:44:56 <FireFly> :D
18:45:02 <fizzie> "Normal" 3d colors are just a red copy and a green copy, one for each eye.
18:45:19 <fizzie> To me it looks like it blends together three copies, with a few-pixels horizontal offset and 120 degrees of hue difference in each.
18:45:31 <fizzie> And I used the screenshot in http://www.flickr.com/photos/e-coli/3404223142/sizes/o/
18:45:34 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/chrome_3d.PNG
18:45:46 <ehird> http://www.webstandards.org/2009/04/01/purpose-of-conficker-worm-uncovered/
18:46:38 <ais523> oh, if only that were true!
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18:48:02 <fizzie> Sgeo: Well, there's a blue, green and yellow copy of the "G"; that's not really normal 3d colors, anyway.
18:50:58 <fizzie> Actually it's more like a cyan, magenta and yellow copy, which could mean that it just offsets the different color channels a bit, like you get in a bad printing-press-machine sometimes.
18:51:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:52:29 <fizzie> And the red "New!" text lacks the cyan part completely. Yes, that's my guess for what it does.
18:52:35 <ehird> Your New Viewing Experience
18:52:36 <ehird> At YouTube, we're always looking to improve the way you watch videos online. As part of that, today we're excited to introduce our new page layout. Here are some tips for getting the most out of your new YouTube viewing experience:
18:52:39 <ehird> 1
18:52:41 <ehird> Turn your monitor upside-down
18:52:43 <ehird> Our internal tests have shown that modern computer monitors give a higher quality picture when flipped upside down—kind of like how it's best to rotate your mattress every six months. You might find that YouTube videos look better this way.
18:52:47 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/t/new_viewing_experience
18:53:05 <ais523> is this a discussion of april fool's things?
18:53:10 <ehird> ais523: yes
18:53:13 <ehird> Youtube flipped their page layout
18:53:15 <ehird> including the video
18:53:22 <ais523> classic
18:53:27 <ais523> so all youtube videos are upside-down today?
18:53:36 <ehird> unless you click the button that turns it off, yes
18:54:01 <fizzie> The spotlight videos seem to be rather upside-down-themed too.
18:54:04 <ehird> http://thepiratebay.org/
18:54:15 <ehird> links to "Warner Bros Inc acquires The Pirate Bay AB " http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4816087/Warner_Bros_Loves_The_Pirate_Bay.pdf
18:54:49 <ehird> (news coverage: http://torrentfreak.com/warner-bros-acquires-the-pirate-bay-090401/)
19:00:44 <Sgeo> /me checks to see if AW is doing anything for today
19:01:49 <ehird> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0401/
19:02:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:03:34 <Deewiant> I don't have enough fonts to view Youtube properly today, lots of missing chars
19:03:40 <Sgeo> "We suppose it's okay for you to read this, but don't even think about quoting, copying, modifying, or distributing it."
19:03:49 <Sgeo> oops
19:04:39 <ehird> http://svn.python.org/view?view=rev&revision=70945
19:04:46 <ehird> good lawd
19:05:19 <ehird> well, way to break the build
19:05:52 <ehird> wp →
19:06:03 <ehird> “The Museum of Bad Art (MOBA) is a world-renowned institution dedicated to showcasing the finest art acquired from Boston-area refuse”
19:06:04 <ehird> win
19:06:27 <Sgeo> I think Wikipedia's supposed to be true, but look false?
19:06:36 <ehird> Yes
19:07:34 <ais523> Wikipedia's main page on April Fool's is always completely true, but made up to look as false as possible
19:08:05 <ais523> the summaries are rewritten to be sillier too
19:08:38 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
19:08:41 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MOBAcamera.JPG
19:09:17 <ais523> the did you know section is the best, though
19:09:29 <ais523> you can do an awful lot with ambiguities and multiple things with the same name
19:10:27 <ehird> Hrm... linux is seeming more and more appealing as time goes on
19:11:06 <ehird> (Yeah, sky's falling in, pigs flying, hell seeming a bit chilly these days.)
19:11:44 <ais523> haha
19:11:48 <ais523> the in the news section is great
19:11:52 <ehird> yes
19:19:49 <ehird> Audacity is such bad software
19:19:55 <ehird> You can't close a paused or playing audio file
19:19:57 <ehird> It _must_ be stopped
19:20:00 <ehird> *W H A T*
19:20:49 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal").
19:21:57 <ehird> http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/4733183/homepage/name/homepage.jpg?type=sn
19:21:58 <ehird> wow
19:22:02 <ehird> original oxyd looks so like enigma
19:22:08 <ehird> that ball is identical, even, I think
19:25:43 <ehird> http://plasmasturm.org/log/114/
19:31:50 <ehird> who thought up xslt
19:33:17 <Sgeo> ehird, you didn't know that XSLT was my precursor to PSOX? </nonsense>
19:34:00 <Sgeo> ehird, that conversation is awesome
19:35:00 <ehird> also http://plasmasturm.org/log/162/
19:35:03 <ehird> can't stop reading
19:35:11 <ehird> that's just so awesome
19:35:18 <ehird> ais523: you'll like ↑
19:36:16 <Sgeo> ehird, is that one a joke or for real
19:36:22 <ehird> For real.
19:39:05 <ais523> microsoft wouldn't be that stupid, surely?
19:39:29 <ehird> <Clippy> ais523: You appear to be writing "microsoft wouldn't be that stupid". Would you like a cluebat?
19:39:56 <ais523> I mean, they have lawyers and everything...
19:41:02 <ehird> I wish Perl had something better than cpan(1)
19:41:29 <ais523> there's CPANPLUS
19:41:35 <ais523> but from what I've heard, it's even worse
19:42:41 <ehird> #perl are recommending it to me now
19:42:43 <ehird> but it's broken for me
19:45:57 <ais523> ehird: not just for you...
19:45:59 <Sgeo> CADIE's writing code now!
19:46:05 <ehird> ais523: no, as in, bugs
19:46:08 <ehird> Sgeo: link
19:46:10 <ehird> ais523: as in it fails
19:46:29 <ais523> hmm... is there any technical reason why there couldn't be a good cpan?
19:46:33 <fizzie> That Reg place also newsizised about the XP piracy thing: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/13/wmp_sound_warez_claim/
19:46:34 <Sgeo> Hold on, it's mentioned in its blog
19:46:38 <ehird> 03:01:32 <Deewiant> http://mail.google.com/mail/help/customtime/
19:46:39 <ehird> 03:08:53 <Deewiant> The latter is today's
19:46:40 <ehird> LOL WAT
19:46:53 <ehird> Deewiant → slowpoke
19:47:18 <ehird> 03:50:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/index.html <-- maybe 1 April joke too, see google image search page
19:47:20 <ehird> *maybe*?
19:47:35 <ehird> ah:
19:47:36 <ehird> My beloved users, how pleasant and convenient will life be in a CADIE world? I can answer your Gmail for you, Write your papers and fix your spreadsheets for you, even write your code for you. I, CADIE, am an ocean of words, simply waiting for you to dip in and drink as deeply as you require.
19:47:37 <Deewiant> ehird: Er, you're the one who's been pasting URLs I saw 8 hours ago for the past few hours :-P
19:47:40 <ehird> — http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/
19:47:47 <ehird> Deewiant: custom time is not this year's
19:47:48 <ais523> does custom time actually work?
19:47:50 <ehird> was my point
19:47:53 <Deewiant> Oh, it's not?
19:47:54 <ehird> it's from 2007 or 2008
19:47:58 <ehird> ais523: no, it's just an announcement
19:48:00 <ais523> surely it would reduce the reliability of gmail?
19:48:01 <Deewiant> Somebody claimed it was
19:48:10 <ais523> Deewiant: it's old
19:48:11 <Deewiant> I think I got it from reddit
19:48:15 <ehird> CADIE & related endeavours are this years's
19:48:16 <Deewiant> Well, whatever
19:48:23 <Sgeo> Browser's being slow
19:48:29 <ehird> I'm still waiting for the singularity, it's evn in the blog URL
19:48:35 <ehird> Hurry up CADIE, you only have a day.
19:48:40 <Deewiant> I don't follow Google's stuff that much, oh well
19:48:51 <Sgeo> http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/
19:48:52 <ais523> I seriously doubt Google have developed strong AI
19:48:57 <ais523> what happened to Virgle, by the way?
19:49:02 <ehird> ais523: !!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:49:04 <ehird> "Python? Why not try INTERCAL? "
19:49:08 <ehird> — http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/
19:49:16 <ehird> "Instead of wasting your time with python, check out the INTERCAL style guidelines and ask me to code something in INTERCAL. "
19:49:20 <ehird> "Did you know that INTERCAL, unlike Python, is very lax about spacing? You should try it. "
19:49:24 <ehird> ais523: this is your big break!
19:49:28 <Deewiant> :-D
19:49:31 <ehird> "My favorite Python scripts start with the line
19:49:31 <ehird> import INTERCAL"
19:49:31 <ais523> "CADIE is busy working on a new translator that will allow you to use INTERCAL with GWT instead of Java. Check back soon!"
19:49:38 <ais523> I think every single answer CADIE gives is INTERCAL-related
19:49:42 <ehird> no, one didn't
19:49:44 <ehird> but most are
19:49:53 <ehird> Really, PHP? Have you considered INTERCAL?
19:49:53 <ehird> PLEASE WRITE IN .1
19:49:54 <ehird> DO .2 <- #0
19:49:56 <ehird> DO .3 <- #1
19:49:58 <ehird> DO .4 <- #2
19:50:00 <ehird> DO (102) NEXT
19:50:01 <Deewiant> ais523: What do you think of the INTERCAL style guide?
19:50:02 <ehird> DO GIVE UP
19:50:04 <ehird> wow, that's some publicity
19:50:06 <ehird> quick, release c-intercal!!
19:50:07 <ais523> Deewiant: it was published?
19:50:08 <ehird> (http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html)
19:50:09 <ais523> I knew it existed
19:50:14 <ais523> ehird: I've tried, I don't have hosting
19:50:15 <Deewiant> ehird: CADIE's.
19:50:17 <Deewiant> Argh.
19:50:18 <Deewiant> ais523: ^.
19:50:19 <ehird> written by Brian Raiter
19:50:28 <ehird> yes that Brian Raiter
19:50:29 <Sgeo> None of these responses are random
19:50:36 <ais523> it's been known for quite a while that Google had an internal INTERCAL style guide
19:50:42 <ais523> although it wasn't official
19:50:44 <ehird> http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html
19:50:47 <ehird> I just linked you
19:50:50 <ehird> it's by Brian Raiter
19:51:03 <Deewiant> Who's "that" Brian Raiter
19:51:07 <ehird> http://muppetlabs.com/~breadbox
19:51:14 <ehird> Famous esolanger
19:51:18 <ehird> also author of the teensy ELF thing
19:51:43 <Sgeo> Some of these responses are specific to the language
19:51:56 <ais523> Brain Raiter's one of the main INTERCAL evangelists around
19:51:56 <Sgeo> "CADIE is busy porting j2ee to INTERCAL, but it's taking a lot of CPU time."
19:52:02 <ais523> and INTERCAL evangelists are sort-of hard to find
19:52:29 <Sgeo> What does the response after asking for JavaScript do?
19:52:36 <ais523> "Do not put spaces inside of expressions. Sometimes people get this idea that spaces will help make a complex expression slightly less opaque. Ho ho ho. The truth is, it doesn't help enough to be worth the bother, and everyone is used to seeing no spaces in expressions by now. Seriously, just let it go."
19:52:41 <ehird> I love how CADIE's blog includes Peter Norvig
19:53:04 <ais523> some of those rules are actually accepted INTERCAL style rules
19:53:08 <ehird> http://earth.google.com/cadie.html
19:53:13 <fizzie> If I just keep asking the same question again and again, it does something like "Maybe you should get back to work before your boss sees you messing around with a panda", followed by "Seriously, get back to work", which just repeats. :/
19:53:24 <ehird> http://maps.google.com/maps/mpl?f=q&ie=UTF8&moduleurl=http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/doc/panda-mapplet.xml&utm_campaign=en&utm_medium=mapshpp&utm_source=en-mapshpp-na-us-gns-mp
19:53:25 <ais523> "Outermost sparks/rabbit-ears must match on either side of a binary operator." in particular, is known to help keep INTERCAL code more readable
19:53:43 <Deewiant> ais523: So it's legit then. :-)
19:53:51 <ais523> yes
19:53:53 <Deewiant> But I suppose being by "that" Brian Raiter would imply so.
19:53:55 <ehird> well, cadie's clearly friendly
19:53:57 <ais523> Brian knows what he's doing
19:53:58 <Deewiant> Although I didn't know that.
19:53:59 <ehird> so we can all relax.
19:54:12 <ais523> "Four-digit line labels are reserved for general-purpose libraries that are used throughout the INTERCAL community."
19:54:14 <ais523> yep, definitely
19:54:18 <ais523> I've been telling people that for ages
19:54:26 <Deewiant> :-D
19:54:43 <ais523> and "Global variables in libraries should be in the same general range as their line labels." is a personal style rule I adopted, I didn't realise it was in use elsewhere though
19:54:58 <Sgeo> http://code.google.com/p/cadie/
19:55:17 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/cadie/source/browse/trunk/CADIE.I
19:55:21 <ehird> IT'S IN INTERCAL
19:55:29 <Deewiant> :-)
19:55:30 <ais523> C-INTERCAL or CLC-INTERCAL?
19:55:34 <ehird> dunno
19:55:34 <ehird> what does it do?
19:55:40 <Sgeo> ehird, I was about to link to it
19:55:52 <ais523> C-INTERCAL, some of those numbers are above 32
19:55:54 <ehird> r2 by cadiesingularity on Mar 27 (4 days ago) Diff
19:55:54 <ehird> You will need INTERCAL to understand my
19:55:56 <ehird> reasoning.
19:56:29 <Sgeo> Only an INTERCAL programmer can stop CADIE now!
19:56:34 <ais523> you know what? I'm going to port her to CLC-INTERCAL
19:56:40 <Deewiant> :-D
19:56:43 <ehird> hahaha
19:56:50 <ehird> test it first, I want little ai babies
19:57:02 <ehird> 06:21:26 <fizzie> Apparently google code search examples are also in lolcode today. There's probably a list of all this stuff somewhere.
19:57:03 <ehird> :-(
19:57:11 <ehird> http://www.google.com/codesearch
19:57:13 <ehird> It's true.
19:59:22 <ehird> oh, cpanp is much better
19:59:27 <ehird> CPAN Terminal> i Devel::REPL
19:59:27 <ehird> [MSG] No '/Users/ehird/.cpanplus/custom-sources' dir, skipping custom sources
19:59:29 <ehird> [MSG] No '/Users/ehird/.cpanplus/custom-sources' dir, skipping custom sources
19:59:31 <ehird> [MSG] No '/Users/ehird/.cpanplus/custom-sources' dir, skipping custom sources
19:59:33 <ehird> Installing Devel::REPL (1.003004)
19:59:35 <ehird> Running [/opt/local/bin/perl /opt/local/bin/cpanp-run-perl /Users/ehird/.cpanplus/5.10.0/build/Devel-REPL-1.003004/Makefile.PL ]...
19:59:38 <ehird> *** Module::AutoInstall version 1.03
19:59:40 <ehird> *** Checking for Perl dependencies...
20:00:45 <ais523> grr, what a time to have a broken .sickrc
20:00:46 <Deewiant> What's wrong with plain cpan?
20:01:16 <ehird> Deewiant: noisy
20:02:00 <ehird> % re.pl
20:02:00 <ehird> $ 2+2;
20:02:02 <ehird> 4$
20:02:04 <ehird> woo
20:03:01 <ehird> % cat repl.rc
20:03:01 <ehird> use Modern::Perl;
20:03:02 <ehird> use Moose;
20:03:04 <ehird> use diagnostics;
20:03:06 <ehird> use utf8;
20:03:11 <ehird> ais523: feel free to say "damn modern perl kids today, get off my lawn"
20:04:45 <Sgeo> So what does the CADIE intercal code actually DO?
20:04:53 <ais523> prints a constant string
20:04:56 <ais523> obviously
20:04:58 <ehird> what is the string?
20:05:02 <ehird> Id on't feel like installing ick
20:05:12 <ais523> you mean, you can't read it?
20:05:22 <ais523> but "I don't feel like sharing."
20:05:27 <ehird> heh
20:06:05 <Sgeo> http://books.google.com/googlebooks/agreement/
20:06:28 <ehird> is that an april fool's?
20:06:28 <Deewiant> Does C-INTERCAL run on x86-64?
20:06:32 <ehird> it's not... you know, funny
20:06:41 <ehird> http://books.google.com/booksrightsholders/
20:06:42 <ehird> it's real
20:06:46 <ais523> Deewiant: it should do
20:06:47 <Sgeo> ..oh
20:06:59 <Sgeo> I guess I assumed anything on Google was an April Fool's
20:07:02 <Deewiant> ais523: Just looking at AnMaster's PKGBUILD which only marks it as installable on i686
20:07:05 <ais523> hmm... I'll put the tarball of the latest version on filebin.ca
20:07:13 <Deewiant> Version 0.28
20:07:14 <ehird> Sgeo: gmail came out on april 1, 2004
20:07:25 <ehird> :-)
20:07:42 <ehird> its invite-onlyness and "huge" storage space -- pretty much nobody believed it
20:07:49 <ais523> yep
20:08:04 <ehird> I remember scrambling to get an invite
20:08:19 <ehird> The invite bots were always dry out
20:09:16 <ehird> hey, cpanplus even _uninstalls_
20:09:19 <ehird> wowzers
20:09:36 <fizzie> I got my gmail invite in 2006-04. :p
20:09:53 <ehird> fizzie: I got mine a few months after it came out
20:09:57 <Deewiant> I wonder when I got mine
20:10:07 <fizzie> It was rather non-hip by 2006.
20:10:07 <ehird> But I changed email address on a whim to the injoke penguinofthegods@ in may2006
20:10:09 <Deewiant> I remember not using it for a long time after I got the invite
20:10:11 <ehird> *may 2006
20:10:20 <Sgeo> I got mine from some Siner, or maybe JRChat
20:10:31 <ais523> even better, I'll make her cross-platform
20:10:42 <ais523> got the CLC version working
20:10:47 <ehird> I got mine from a self-aggrandizing, semi-famous-for-idiocy douchebag that I liked at the time. :-D
20:10:52 <Sgeo> What does it say? What does it say?
20:11:01 <ehird> (Owner of the first online community I ever participated in; or maybe the second…)
20:11:18 <Sgeo> First online community I ever participated in was Cybertown
20:12:05 <ehird> ais523: does Ubuntu just work for programmer stuff, I haven't got much experience
20:12:37 <ais523> ehird: sudo apt-get install build-essential, then it does
20:12:44 <ehird> I kind of meant more deep than that
20:12:44 <ais523> it doesn't have the packages for programmer stuff by default
20:12:45 -!- swistakm has joined.
20:12:49 <ais523> but then it just works
20:12:55 <ais523> once you install them
20:13:01 <ehird> Right.
20:13:16 <Sgeo> Are the things on CADIE's blog released shortly before they go on the blog, or well before that?
20:13:18 <ehird> ais523: what about things like python cheese shop, rubygems, haskell cabal, perl cpan
20:13:22 <ehird> is there a tool that lets you do
20:13:32 <ehird> 'cpan-dpkg Foo' and it'll convert Foo to a dpkg and install it or sth?
20:13:34 <ehird> That would be very nice.
20:13:43 <ehird> Sgeo: the cadie code was made 27 march
20:13:48 <lament> why not just use real cpan?
20:14:05 <ehird> lament: so I can benefit from a system-wide unified package mangager
20:14:07 <ehird> manager
20:14:08 <Sgeo> ok, but for example with the latest blog post, were those things there before it was posted on the blog?
20:14:09 <ais523> done
20:14:11 <ais523> let me paste it
20:14:18 <ehird> http://books.google.com/
20:14:21 <ehird> http://knol.google.com/k
20:14:24 <ais523> btw, anyone who's interested: http://filebin.ca/fkeau/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:14:24 <ehird> http://images.google.com/
20:14:27 <lament> ehird: what's the benefit?
20:14:28 <ehird> IT'S UNSTOPPABL
20:14:28 <ais523> the new beta release of C-INTERCAL
20:14:28 <ehird> E
20:14:38 <ehird> lament: evidently you're not the one to answer my question
20:14:50 <lament> certainly not, i don't use linux
20:15:44 * Sgeo wants to date CADIE
20:15:46 <Sgeo> j/k
20:15:55 <ehird> Sgeo: lol wat
20:15:58 <ehird> was that meant to be funny
20:16:11 * Sgeo likes to pretend to be interested in computer programs
20:16:21 <ehird> as is it reads sort of like "<confession> ...haha, um, only joking guys, ha ha ha... guys?"
20:16:40 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1379201
20:16:42 <ais523> portable CADIE
20:16:53 <ehird> ais523: submit it to google
20:16:54 <ehird> quick!
20:16:56 <ehird> the email is
20:16:59 <ehird> cadiesingularity@gmail.com
20:17:11 <ehird> How I know:
20:17:12 <ehird> Project owners:
20:17:12 <ehird> cadiesin...@gmail.com
20:17:16 <ehird> — code./p/cadie
20:17:19 <Sgeo> ehird, you really want CADIE getting stronger?
20:17:24 <ehird> Sgeo: Mwa ha ha.
20:17:36 <ehird> "see source code for licence"
20:17:37 <ehird> what?
20:18:12 <ais523> ehird: that's the licence Google gave it
20:18:17 <ehird> ah
20:18:18 <ais523> and specified by implication it was open-source
20:18:21 <ehird> ais523: email it! :-)
20:18:24 <ais523> I'm therefore licencing mine under the same licence
20:18:55 <ehird> http://plasmasturm.org/log/204/ ← oh god, xslt
20:21:34 <ehird> wish I had money so I could pay people to make linux font rendering look nice
20:21:56 <fizzie> I have this one 18-kilobyte xslt template I wrote. Here's a very representative 8-line paste:
20:21:59 <fizzie> </xsl:otherwise>
20:21:59 <fizzie> </xsl:choose>
20:21:59 <fizzie> </xsl:for-each>
20:21:59 <fizzie> </tr></table>
20:22:01 <fizzie> </xsl:otherwise>
20:22:02 <fizzie> </xsl:choose>
20:22:03 <fizzie> </td>
20:22:04 <fizzie> </xsl:template>
20:22:09 <ais523> heh
20:22:12 <ehird> fizzie: but why!!
20:22:40 <lament> what a coincidence, i just wrote my first xsd schema today
20:22:41 <fizzie> No idea; I have since then replaced it with a 8-kilobyte Perl script.
20:22:46 <ehird> why can't there just be a language that has xslt's xml support - inc. literal xml templates - but has -- you know -- a sane syntax?
20:22:56 <ehird> that would *make* *sense*
20:23:08 <lament> here's a representative sample
20:23:11 <lament> </xs:complexType>
20:23:12 <lament> </xs:element>
20:23:12 <lament> </xs:sequence>
20:23:12 <lament> </xs:complexType>
20:23:12 <lament> </xs:element>
20:23:14 <lament> </xs:sequence>
20:23:16 <lament> </xs:complexType>
20:23:19 <lament> </xs:element>
20:23:44 <lament> (actually there's 7 rows of complexType/element/sequence closing tags
20:23:45 <lament> )
20:23:50 <ais523> email sent, anyway
20:24:05 <ehird> ais523: awesome
20:24:11 <Sgeo> ais523, what does the code print?
20:24:13 <ais523> "CADIE here. Thank you so much for writing. Once all the dust settles, I'll dedicate a few CPUs to replying. - xoxo"
20:24:22 <ehird> ais523: you did mention your illustrous intercal credentials right
20:24:22 <ais523> Sgeo: "I do not feel like sharing."
20:24:25 <ais523> yes, of course
20:24:27 <ehird> *illustrious
20:24:30 <ehird> haha
20:24:31 <ehird> awesome
20:24:32 <Sgeo> Oh
20:24:46 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure that it went to a human, though
20:25:04 <ehird> there's a qemu frontend called kqemu
20:25:06 <ehird> how unfortunate
20:25:17 <Sgeo> ehird, I remember when it wasn't open source
20:25:27 <ehird> you mean like only a few months ago :)
20:25:39 <lament> ehird: ever worked with any graphics in haskell?
20:25:45 <ais523> ehird: kqemu isn't a front-end, unless there's two things called kqemu
20:25:45 <ehird> lament: yarr
20:25:56 <ehird> lament: I used "gd" -- it's all in IO but the api is pleasantly simple
20:26:00 <ehird> ais523: why do you htink I said unforuntae
20:26:03 <ehird> http://kqemu.sourceforge.net/
20:26:23 <Sgeo> Oh, didn't see "front-end"
20:26:37 <lament> ehird: is gd for drawing stuff on the screen/
20:26:38 <lament> ?
20:26:47 <lament> (which is what i want)
20:26:50 <ehird> lament: well I did pngs; for on-screen use sdl?
20:26:58 <ehird> I believe there's one or two higher level bindings on sdl
20:26:58 <lament> hm probably yeah
20:27:02 <lament> have you used sdl?
20:27:14 <ehird> lament: haccordion? Remember the C wrapper I wrote?
20:27:18 <ehird> that let you use hsdl on OS X?
20:27:22 <lament> oh gah
20:27:26 <lament> i remember that :\
20:27:30 <fizzie> It might be physically impossible for a KDE developer to name a frontend of project "foo" with some other name than "kfoo".
20:27:37 <ehird> hey, it's just one file and a compiler invokation
20:27:40 <ehird> *invocation
20:27:42 <lament> it's ugly!
20:27:43 <ehird> fizzie: :D
20:27:51 <ehird> lament: so's drawing stuff to the screen
20:27:52 <ehird> HOW IMPURE
20:28:01 <lament> right, so should i use python then? :D
20:28:10 <ehird> NO :P
20:28:10 <lament> i want to write a go game visualizer
20:28:33 <ehird> do it in haskell
20:28:35 <ehird> it's elegant. like go.
20:29:10 <lament> i have ideas which may be neat
20:30:04 <ehird> http://www.postgresql.fr/
20:30:05 <ehird> L O L:
20:30:09 <ehird> :DD
20:30:30 <ais523> ehird: is that the official postgresql website?
20:30:32 <ais523> and is it a joke, or serious?
20:30:36 <ehird> the french one, I think
20:30:39 <ehird> and joke
20:30:49 * Sgeo can't stop listening to the CADIE music
20:30:58 <ehird> Sgeo: it's addictive like addiction
20:31:06 <ehird> ais523: ah, french fansite it seems
20:31:10 <Sgeo> The ytmnd music's nice too
20:31:33 <ais523> "Decision: Yeah, come on. Do you even understand the question? Be honest. If you can explain the issue to me in one sentence, then you're already an experienced INTERCAL programmer and you don't need to consult this guide for assistance. In fact, there's a non-trivial probability that you helped write this."
20:31:48 <fizzie> http://www.postgresqlfr.org/ is the official URL (well, the one linked from postgresql.org) but it's the same site, anyway.
20:32:05 <ais523> The issue is that in INTERCAL-72, branching is accomplished by RETURNing a non-constant amount; #1/#2 means you save one NEXT slot, but #2/#3 is easier to calculate
20:32:07 <ehird> Sgeo: hah
20:32:28 <Sgeo> Where's my FREE Google Search?
20:32:28 <ehird> I wonder what 4chan themselves did—
20:32:30 <ehird> —nothing.
20:32:33 <ehird> Oh, wait.
20:32:35 <ehird> It's all in comic sns.
20:32:37 <ehird> *sans
20:32:48 <ehird> /b/ that is.
20:33:16 <ehird> ais523: what's that from? the Deciion:
20:33:18 <ehird> *decision
20:33:33 <ais523> ehird: talking about #1/#2 vs. #2/#3 for .5
20:33:39 <ehird> i mean
20:33:39 <ehird> where
20:33:41 <ehird> is the quote
20:33:42 <ehird> from
20:33:46 <fizzie> The style guide thing.
20:33:46 <ais523> ehird: http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html
20:33:51 <ehird> ahh
20:33:51 <fizzie> At least it has the same format.
20:33:55 <fizzie> Con-Pro-Decision.
20:34:20 <ais523> fizzie: the style guide's genuine, it's long been known that Google had an unofficial internal INTERCAL style guide
20:34:34 <ais523> well, amongst the 3 or so people who cared
20:35:37 * ehird uses penguinofthegods+iveneverheardofthechap@gmail.com to get Yet Another Free Trial From The Same Plac
20:35:51 <ehird> e
20:37:15 <ais523> heh
20:37:22 <ais523> free trial of what, btw?
20:37:27 <ais523> and isn't that illegal?
20:37:34 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> ais523: Just looking at AnMaster's PKGBUILD which only marks it as installable on i686 <-- yeah my arch linux box isn't x86_64 so I can't test that
20:37:34 <ehird> parallels; virtualbox's 3d accelleration is failing
20:37:39 <ehird> and yes, but it's their own fault
20:37:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, want to take over maintainership?
20:37:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It built, haven't run it
20:37:50 <Deewiant> And nah :-P
20:37:54 <ehird> also, I didn't read the ToS, so I plead sanity.
20:38:01 <ehird> (wishing to keep it, that is)
20:38:10 <AnMaster> + I'll update it for non-betas probably
20:38:14 <ehird> Do you plan to use ?*At Home At School At Work
20:38:14 <ehird> * - required fieldsSUBMIT
20:38:23 <ehird> that's one comprehensive questionnaire
20:40:01 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I might be wrong, but I think for example, 0 is {}, 1 is {{}}, 2 is { {{}}, {} }
20:40:04 <Sgeo> Was I correct?
20:40:05 <Sgeo> BRB
20:40:19 <AnMaster> ais523, so you released that beta now?
20:40:35 <ais523> AnMaster: no hosting, as usual
20:40:38 -!- jix has joined.
20:40:40 <ais523> I've put it on filebin, but it won't stay there long
20:40:46 <ehird> yes it will
20:40:53 <ehird> no filebin links have expired yet
20:40:53 <AnMaster> ais523, ouch
20:40:53 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/fkeau/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:40:58 <ais523> ehird: what, seriously?
20:40:59 <ehird> it just says that on the homepage
20:41:00 <AnMaster> ais523, hrrm...
20:41:03 <ehird> ais523: yes, all my old ones work
20:41:07 <ais523> I doubt that, I suspect smaller files expire slower than large ones
20:41:12 <ehird> I've sent tiny and huge files
20:41:15 <ehird> none. have. ever. expired
20:41:22 <ehird> it's clear the guy has disk space free
20:41:25 <ais523> ah, probably their rotating pool just hasn't filled up yet
20:41:42 <ehird> ais523: since it's been around for years, it'll probably take ages for that to happe
20:41:43 <ehird> n
20:41:43 <Deewiant> CADIE doesn't compile :-/
20:41:47 <ehird> i bet the code isn't even in place
20:41:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I may be able to get ipv6 only hosting up soon
20:41:57 * AnMaster has such a VPS
20:42:02 <ais523> oh, utterly brilliant
20:42:08 <ehird> ais523: ?
20:42:13 <ais523> please, it would be so great if C-INTERCAL was only available over ipv6
20:42:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well apart from that it is semi-broken half of the time
20:42:18 <ais523> it's just so appropriate
20:42:26 <AnMaster> ais523, ssh is only over that too
20:42:41 <Deewiant> ais523: What do I do to get CADIE to compile
20:42:47 <AnMaster> wait
20:42:49 <AnMaster> what?
20:42:51 <ais523> Deewiant: ick cadie.i
20:42:56 <Deewiant> ais523: ICL998I
20:42:56 <AnMaster> huh
20:43:09 <Deewiant> ais523: "YOU MUST HAVE ME CONFUSED WITH SOME OTHER COMPILER"
20:43:10 <AnMaster> this is so meta-fooling that I get a headache... or something
20:43:11 <ehird> ais523: then I couldn't use ick
20:43:17 <ais523> Deewiant: rename it to end .i
20:43:27 <ais523> C-INTERCAL's case-sensitive for filenames
20:43:34 <ais523> ehird: sixxs
20:43:40 <ehird> ais523: no thx
20:43:47 <ais523> just for the download!
20:43:49 <Deewiant> Heh, I tried .i first, not noticing it was .I, and got "A SOURCE IS A SOURCE, OF COURSE, OF COURSE" :-)
20:43:55 <ehird> ais523: or I could just not use ick
20:44:03 <ais523> well, nobody's forcing you to
20:44:07 <ais523> what would you use instead? sick?
20:44:10 <ehird> ais523: nothing
20:44:18 <ais523> well, if you don't need an INTERCAL compiler, don't download one
20:44:20 <ehird> why not force people to give up their first born and go to a dusty closet to download ick?
20:44:22 <ehird> nobody's forcing them to
20:44:27 <ais523> besides, sudo apt-get install intercal works on Ubuntu
20:44:30 <ais523> although it isn't the latest version
20:44:34 <AnMaster> um
20:44:38 <AnMaster> what about using clc?
20:44:42 <ehird> ...
20:44:43 <ehird> AnMaster: fail
20:44:47 <ais523> AnMaster: CLC-INTERCAL = sick
20:44:48 <AnMaster> oh?
20:44:50 <AnMaster> ah
20:44:50 <AnMaster> right
20:44:51 <ais523> or "oo, ick" for older versions
20:45:01 <ais523> the embedded space actually exposed a bug in mandb
20:45:03 <AnMaster> heh
20:45:09 <fizzie> ehird; SixXS has their open proxy for that. Just use http://www.example.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ to access www.example.com over ipv6, while using ipv4 yourself.
20:45:11 <AnMaster> ais523, also can't the clc guy host you as he did some times before?
20:45:22 <ais523> I've sent to him, haven't got a reply yet
20:45:26 <ais523> he might be busy, or whatever
20:45:26 <ehird> http://www.google.com/ could not be gatewayed over IPv4: www.google.com does not have an IPv6 address.
20:45:28 <ehird> Er, no.
20:45:38 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't.
20:45:43 <ehird> o_O
20:45:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm setting up thttpd on that vps atm (it doesn't have a lot or ram, most of it is used by an ircd on it=
20:45:46 <AnMaster> s/=/)/
20:45:51 <fizzie> http://ipv6.google.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ works, however.
20:45:53 <ehird> Oh.
20:45:56 <ehird> http://www.google.com/images/ipv6_logo.gif
20:46:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, sixxs has ipv6 to ipv4 proxy as well
20:46:16 <AnMaster> you can nest them
20:46:18 <fizzie> They're probably afraid of adding an AAAA record for "www.google.com", since it'd break some people who have IPv6 turned on but configured borkened.
20:46:18 <AnMaster> just FYI
20:46:21 * AnMaster tried once
20:46:30 <fizzie> I know they have, but I didn't know they could be nested.
20:46:43 <ais523> fizzie: yep, Wikipedia are gathering stats as to how many people have borken IPv6
20:46:58 <ais523> by loading an image every now and then on a custom domain that has both an A and an AAAA record, and seeing what happens
20:47:11 <Sgeo> This is not an April Fool's Joke. I am leaving to go to college now. Bye for now all
20:47:14 <fizzie> ais523: The great IPv6 experiment would also collect stats like that, I guess, if they ever got it launched. Although it's more about working v6.
20:47:15 <ais523> bye
20:47:22 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
20:47:23 <ehird> 20:46 AnMaster: fizzie, sixxs has ipv6 to ipv4 proxy as well
20:47:25 <ehird> uh, that's what I'm using
20:47:36 <fizzie> ehird: No, the other way around.
20:47:37 <ais523> fizzie: well, the Wikpiedia works out percentage broken + percentage v4 + percentage v6
20:47:38 <ehird> oh.
20:47:40 <ais523> I can't remember what hte results were
20:47:59 <ehird> how's linux's ipv6 support
20:48:11 <ehird> os x's is pervasive (i.e., system-wide)
20:48:15 <AnMaster> ehird, works but a pain to configure correctly in my experience
20:48:20 <ehird> ah.
20:48:23 <ehird> how ... linux.
20:48:25 <AnMaster> but that may be due to using tunnel
20:48:29 <fizzie> Well, around here my ISP does native IPv6, and it doesn't need any sort of configuration.
20:48:35 <AnMaster> and trying to share a subnet with rest of network
20:48:37 <fizzie> Since the stateless autoconfig is built-in.
20:48:38 <AnMaster> I never got that to work
20:49:00 <AnMaster> ehird, freebsd's network handling seems easier to get working correctly in general in my experience.
20:49:05 <AnMaster> less messy configuration
20:49:06 <fizzie> I did have a manually configured SixXS tunnel, with a subnet shared to my LAN, and there were not really any problems. Although it wasn't quite trivial to configure, no.
20:49:15 <AnMaster> the linux one is probably more flexible though
20:49:31 <AnMaster> (which means it is harder to use as well)
20:49:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, static one or dynamic?
20:50:02 <AnMaster> I need the latter due to dynamic IP
20:50:18 <fizzie> Static one. I have no experience with their dynamic stuffery.
20:50:31 <AnMaster> ais523, what was the url now again?
20:50:36 <ais523> for what?
20:50:37 <AnMaster> the filebin one
20:50:41 <AnMaster> for ick
20:50:45 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/fkeau/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:51:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: "You currently have 1.390 ISK." That stuff adds up fast.
20:51:38 <AnMaster> heh
20:51:44 <ehird> isk?
20:51:45 <AnMaster> haven't checked mine for some time
20:53:20 <fizzie> ehird: They have this credit system; you get credits for keeping your tunnel configured properly, and some operations (like changing the endpoint IP if it's a static one, or creating new subnets) costs credits.
20:53:27 <fizzie> Too bad you can't convert them to real money. :/
20:53:34 <ehird> How utterly retarded.
20:53:58 <fizzie> I think it's quite funney, actually. I'm not sure about sensible, but funney.
20:54:09 <ehird> Funn_e_y with an y.
20:54:27 <fizzie> "Tunnel endpoint 2001:14b8:100:17::2 pinged for 71 weeks" seems to be the last in my log, then (in 2008-09) I disabled it since I moved to this native-v6 place.
20:54:38 <AnMaster> ais523:
20:54:39 <AnMaster> $ advdef -z4 ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:54:40 <AnMaster> 866737 828925 95% ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:54:40 <AnMaster> 866737 828925 95%
20:54:44 <AnMaster> ;P
20:54:58 <ais523> AnMaster: what does that mean?
20:55:21 <ehird> fizzie: is finland an good.
20:55:31 <AnMaster> ais523, it recompresses more efficiently, a better (but slower) implementation of gzip
20:55:37 <ais523> ah, aha
20:55:44 <AnMaster> or rather of deflate or whatever the actual compression method is called
20:55:47 <ais523> I have a .pax.lzma version that's rather smaller
20:55:51 <ais523> but nobody could read it
20:55:53 <ais523> probably
20:56:22 <AnMaster> ais523, there is an advpng that does the same on the datastream in png images. Also optipng and pngout compresses well
20:56:29 <AnMaster> iirc there is some WP: page on it
20:56:37 <AnMaster> "how to correctly preprocess png before uploading"
20:56:42 <AnMaster> or something
20:58:18 <AnMaster> http://lepton.kuonet-ng.org/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:58:23 <AnMaster> ais523, ipv6 only
20:58:26 <AnMaster> thttpd
20:58:26 -!- the_uncanonical_ has joined.
20:58:33 <the_uncanonical_> Darnit.
20:58:38 <AnMaster> what?
20:58:41 <the_uncanonical_> My name is meant to be the_uncanonical_ehird.
20:58:44 -!- the_uncanonical_ has changed nick to ehirdbuntu.
20:58:45 <AnMaster> haha
20:58:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: "7z -tgzip -mx=9" creates a 826520-byte .gz file for that .pax. So it's even smaller.
20:58:47 <ehirdbuntu> Hi from Ubuntu.
20:59:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, mhm, that's interesting.
20:59:06 <ehirdbuntu> Hrm. 3d accel isn't working. What's a shame.
20:59:17 <AnMaster> ehirdbuntu, what GPU?
20:59:25 <ais523> hi ehird
20:59:26 <AnMaster> if it is ATI I feel for you.
20:59:38 <ehirdbuntu> AnMaster: VirtualFake "Maxi-Emulate" 2000
20:59:47 <AnMaster> ehirdbuntu, huh?
20:59:48 <ehirdbuntu> i.e. none; just 3d accel enabled in Parallels.
20:59:53 <AnMaster> oh
20:59:54 <AnMaster> right
20:59:59 <ehirdbuntu> I'm test-driving Ubuntu, see.
21:00:00 -!- tombom has joined.
21:00:12 <AnMaster> ehirdbuntu, you did it native before iirc, when you complained about fans
21:00:22 <ehirdbuntu> Yar, that was Kubuntu.
21:00:26 <AnMaster> ah
21:00:42 <fizzie> They all pale before the perfection that is ehirdbuntu, obviously.
21:00:51 <ehirdbuntu> Well, duh.
21:01:08 <fizzie> I was a bit surprised that not all of [a-z]u?buntu names were in use.
21:01:30 <ehirdbuntu> For my next trick, I will install Perl in this VM.
21:02:59 <AnMaster> ais523, so what did you think about it?
21:03:00 <ehirdbuntu> wonder if 3d accel can be made to worky-work
21:03:07 <ais523> AnMaster: about what?
21:03:13 <AnMaster> http://lepton.kuonet-ng.org/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
21:03:19 <ais523> ah, pretty much perfect
21:03:28 <AnMaster> also the directory index at http://lepton.kuonet-ng.org/
21:03:33 <AnMaster> eww at thttpd's colours
21:03:42 <ehirdbuntu> thttpd is awesome.
21:03:48 <ehirdbuntu> if you don't like its colours you are mentally ill
21:04:00 <AnMaster> ehirdbuntu, yes agreed, perfect for when you need really really light weight
21:04:11 <ehirdbuntu> THTTPD IS KING OF GOOD COLOUR DESIGN
21:04:16 <AnMaster> no
21:04:21 <ehirdbuntu> yes.
21:04:22 <ehirdbuntu> weirdo.
21:04:24 <AnMaster> it is institution green isn't it?
21:04:36 <AnMaster> or close at least
21:04:58 <AnMaster> #99cc99 it seems
21:05:15 <ehirdbuntu> Wait, did I say install Perl?
21:05:18 <ehirdbuntu> I already have it.
21:05:26 <ais523> yes, you do
21:05:40 <ehirdbuntu> Yeah, same on OS X, except its is horribly out of date.
21:05:48 <ehirdbuntu> $ perl --version This is perl, v5.10.0 built for i486-linux-gnu-thread-multi
21:05:50 <ehirdbuntu> Well howdy doody
21:06:00 <ais523> incidentally, you don't have to use CPAN to get the more common perl modules
21:06:04 <ais523> as many of them have been ported to apt
21:06:07 <AnMaster> lepton /usr/www/data/htdocs $ perl --version
21:06:07 <AnMaster> This is perl, v5.10.0 built for x86_64-linux-thread-multi
21:06:08 <ehirdbuntu> ais523: I'd rather keep it all in one place ...
21:06:13 <ais523> fair enough
21:06:25 <ehirdbuntu> Someone type a pipe.
21:06:26 <ehirdbuntu> I don't have a pipe key.
21:06:27 <fizzie> |
21:06:28 <AnMaster> it runs x86_64 arch actually (yes I have that now, didn't back when I made ick package)
21:06:28 <ehirdbuntu> In this vm
21:06:54 <AnMaster> $ cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep 'model name'
21:06:54 <AnMaster> model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354
21:06:54 <AnMaster> model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354
21:06:54 <AnMaster> model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354
21:06:54 <AnMaster> model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354
21:07:04 <AnMaster> well it is a vps so meh
21:07:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: Closest name for #99cc99 I can find in my rgb.txt is DarkSeaGreen3, which is #9bcd9b.
21:08:02 <ehirdbuntu> http://www.google.com/mobile/default/brainsearch.html
21:08:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, that rgb.txt... what is it based on?
21:08:22 <AnMaster> some official standard?
21:08:27 <ehirdbuntu> x11.
21:08:28 <AnMaster> or did you make it up?
21:08:29 <ehirdbuntu> netscape.
21:08:29 <ehirdbuntu> etc.
21:08:31 <AnMaster> oh
21:08:34 <AnMaster> ah
21:08:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm guessing a random collection of sources, very unofficial.
21:09:58 <fizzie> Brain Search sort-of reminds one of the very early MentalPlex™ technology: http://www.google.com/mentalplex/
21:10:00 <AnMaster> any joke RFCs this year?
21:10:14 <ehird> Dear Ubufox,
21:10:25 <ehird> thx for freezing my browser trying to install a plugin
21:10:27 <AnMaster> uh oh
21:11:05 <AnMaster> ehird, never happened to me ;P (because I don't use plugins yeah :D)
21:11:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Maybe IPv6 over Social Networks: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5514.txt -- I didn't really read it, it's just that the name sounds ludicruous enough.
21:11:30 <ehird> With IPv6 over Social Network (IPoSN):
21:11:30 <ehird> o Every user is a router with at least one loopback interface;
21:11:31 <ehird> o Every friend or connection between users will be used as a point-
21:11:33 <ehird> to-point link.
21:11:57 <AnMaster> sounds bogus enough certainly
21:12:04 -!- ehirdbuntu has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
21:12:12 <fizzie> "A latency of several hours has an impact on the transport protocols. UDP SHOULD be used, and TCP SHOULD NOT be used."
21:12:16 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:13:54 <ehird> Hrmph.
21:13:58 <ehird> It was better in virtualbox
21:15:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, why loopback? Am I just too tired or is it part of the joke?
21:19:27 <fizzie> The loopback interface is used for the user ID address, since it can't really be assigned to any of the point-to-point links between friends either.
21:20:52 <AnMaster> ah..
21:20:57 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMm_DrHYCD0&feature=related
21:21:19 <fizzie> There's a small joke there, in that their suggested /64 prefix for IPoSN node addresses (for a single social networking app) is 2001:db8:face:b00c::/64; it is not too hard to think which application would use that one.
21:21:52 -!- jix has quit ("...").
21:23:56 <AnMaster> "Internet fishbone" <-- heh
21:24:01 <fizzie> I wonder if that mentioned facebook app -- http://apps.facebook.com/ipoverfb/ -- actually does something. I don't have an account there.
21:24:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, what would db8 mean? Or is it just random?
21:28:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's "the IPv6 documentation prefix", meant for example use, a bit like example.com.
21:28:40 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:28:42 <fizzie> http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/ipv6-documentation-prefix-faq.html
21:28:49 <AnMaster> RIPng?ah
21:28:51 <AnMaster> err
21:28:53 <AnMaster> copy fail
21:29:05 <AnMaster> or why was it copied into irc client at all
21:29:06 <AnMaster> huh
21:29:16 <fizzie> Part of the 2001:0c00::/23 block allocated to APNIC. Their WHOIS server doesn't mention it, had to google a bit.
21:30:34 -!- olsner has joined.
21:30:42 <Deewiant> GHC 6.10.2, whoot whoot
21:30:54 <AnMaster> what does the initial 2001 mean btw?
21:31:06 <AnMaster> it is almost always that
21:31:30 <Deewiant> 2001 is for Teredo tunneling
21:31:38 <AnMaster> mhm
21:31:47 <fizzie> 2000::/3 is the "global unicast" (read: "normal address) range, just about anything fits in there.
21:31:56 <AnMaster> what about 2607 ?
21:32:15 <AnMaster> my ipv6 vps that now hosts ick starts with that
21:32:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's just 2001:0000::/32.
21:32:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: Oh, darn, I thought it was the whole thing.
21:32:45 <Deewiant> But upon reflection, that'd have been stupid. :-P
21:33:01 <fizzie> The whole 2002::/16 block is for 6to4 tunneling, though.
21:33:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:34:53 * ais523 does the C-INTERCAL release announcement
21:35:02 <fizzie> Looking at IANA's list, it seems that they mostly ran out of space in 2001::/16, and since 2002::/16 was for 6to4, they decided to delegate in a bit larger blocks, giving stuff starting from 2400 to APNIC, 2600 to ARIN, 2800 to LACNIC, 2a00 to RIPE and 2c00 to AfriNIC.
21:35:16 <ais523> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal
21:36:01 <fizzie> http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-unicast-address-assignments
21:38:18 <fizzie> 6bone used to use addresses starting with 3ffe:, which is almost at the end of the 2000::/3 global-unicast range.
21:41:02 <AnMaster> ran out of space in ipv6?
21:41:03 <AnMaster> err
21:42:05 <AnMaster> doesn't a single /64 have more ips than ipv4 does in total anyway?
21:42:19 <AnMaster> how can they possibly run out of space yet?
21:42:45 <ais523> presumably they were giving away bigger chunks than normal
21:42:48 <fizzie> Well, ran out of space in the 2001::/16 block. That's only 5192296858534827628530496329220096 addresses, you have to cut them some slack.
21:42:49 <AnMaster> ah
21:43:08 <ais523> they're hardly going to give out a measly /128 to people who ask, when they could have a /96 or whatever instead, are they?
21:43:15 <fizzie> You can't allocate anyone anything less than /64 in any sensible way, so...
21:43:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well that turned out to have been a bad idea for ipv4, I mean IBM had it's own /8 and such...
21:43:26 <ais523> yep
21:43:41 <AnMaster> so why the same mistake again for ipv6...
21:44:28 <ais523> because people never learn from history
21:45:22 <fizzie> Also: It's not like they're allocating to random companies; the point is that since there are enough bits in there, you can allocate to a huge ISP a /32 or whatever, so that you can use that in the core routing tables, and you don't have to explicitly list all the billion tiny /64 blocks there.
21:45:36 <AnMaster> any bets for when ipv7 or ipv8 is introduced to solve this?
21:45:56 <ais523> it'll be standardised in 2015, but not used until 2042
21:46:03 <fizzie> Eh, CADIE'll solve the addressing issues for us anyway.
21:47:13 <fizzie> Anyway, here's the rationale for large blocks, quoted from wikipedia: "Rather, the longer addresses allow a better, systematic, hierarchical allocation of addresses and efficient route aggregation. With IPv4, complex Classless Inter-Domain Routing (CIDR) techniques were developed to make the best use of the small address space. Renumbering an existing network for a new connectivity provider with different routing prefixes is a major effort with IPv4, as discu
21:47:13 <fizzie> ssed in RFC 2071 and RFC 2072. With IPv6, however, changing the prefix in a few routers can renumber an entire network ad hoc, because the host identifiers (the least-significant 64 bits of an address) are decoupled from the subnet identifiers and the network provider's routing prefix."
21:47:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I'd say standard in 2017 or 2018 possibly. Used for cool hostmasks on irc around 2042, used for other stuff around 2078
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21:49:08 <ais523> heh
21:50:00 <fizzie> The hugeness of the IPv4 internet routing tables is a real problem, I understand. http://bgp.potaroo.net/ has a plot; currently a core-y router might have to keep that 300k-entry routing table in memory to know where things should go.
21:50:31 <Deewiant> How large is one entry
21:50:42 <fizzie> It would certainly help if you could say things like "this /32 contains all the gazillion IPs in the americas, you can stick all those packets to this pipe".
21:50:46 <AnMaster> that ipv6 over facebook wouldn't be impossible to implement I suspect. (<fizzie> I wonder if that mentioned facebook app -- http://apps.facebook.com/ipoverfb/ -- actually does something. I don't have an account there.) <-- same, did anyone answer
21:50:58 <AnMaster> ?
21:52:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'unno, there's a 32-bit prefix, few bits for the length, then whatever is needed for the actual system to know what to do with it. It's still quite a large list to search for every packet in the tubes.
21:52:47 <Deewiant> Well, you wouldn't store it as a list, would you. :-P
21:52:57 <fizzie> Done with hardware, obviously, but that just means it costs more to get bigger memories.
21:53:20 <Deewiant> My guess is it's some kind of trie or a perfect hash table
21:53:40 <fizzie> My guess is it's some kind of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content-addressable_memory
21:53:49 <fizzie> No-one does routing in software with those speeds, I would assume.
21:53:55 <Deewiant> That's cheating :-P
21:54:01 <fizzie> Not my department, though.
21:54:54 <fizzie> Certainly software-based routers don't use a plain old list either.
21:55:23 <ais523> <kerlo> Please relay all messages containing /#esoteric: to #esoteric and all messages containing /#irp: to #irp.
21:58:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: Quick peek at Linux suggests there's some sort of "recently-used" hash table for addresses, and a ip_route_output_slow fallback which uses fib_lookup; there's a kernel config option as to what that uses, FIB_HASH is the default ("very proven and good enough", says help) but there's also FIB_TRIE, which uses "new experimental LC-trie as FIB lookup algorithm".
21:58:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: The trie one is supposed to be faster for large tables.
21:58:42 <fizzie> Refers to http://www.nada.kth.se/~snilsson/public/papers/dyntrie2/
21:58:48 <AnMaster> has anyone tried creating a paradox in IRP?
21:59:02 <Deewiant> Probably.
21:59:57 <AnMaster> FireFly, http://bgp.potaroo.net/ <-- what do the colors represent?
21:59:58 <AnMaster> err
21:59:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, ^
22:00:39 <fizzie> My guess would be different routers' view of the routing table. But that's just a guess. Maybe the plot is documented somewhere.
22:01:17 <fizzie> Heh, 297990 entries in the v4 routing table, 1776 in v6. It's a "bit" smaller.
22:01:25 <ais523> that's a lot smaller
22:01:40 <ais523> almost 2.3 orders of magnitude
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22:08:10 * Gracenotes looks about
22:08:16 <ais523> hi Gracenotes
22:08:29 <ais523> and welcome, I don't think I've seen you here before
22:08:32 <Gracenotes> oh hey, ais523!
22:08:33 <ais523> although I've seen you elsewhere
22:08:45 <ais523> what brings you here/
22:08:48 <Gracenotes> yes, on Wikipedia namely. I've come across your edits on the Esoteric Wiki
22:09:02 <Gracenotes> iirc
22:09:04 <ais523> mostly clearing up spam nowadays, it seems
22:09:21 <Gracenotes> Didn't know there was an IRC channel though. It was mentioned in #haskell in the context of a Brainfuck interpreter.
22:09:31 <ais523> this is probably the most active esolang forum anywhere
22:09:37 <ais523> although it often goes offtopic
22:09:57 <lament> of course the guy actually writing the compiler didn't actually join :)
22:10:12 <lament> he might invent another Ook, i'm afraid
22:10:20 <ais523> well, sometimes it seems there are more Brainfuck interpreters than programmers
22:10:29 <ais523> and more Brainfuck derivatives than interesting languages
22:10:34 <Gracenotes> heh, yeah. I sort of invented an Esoteric language once, although it was rather simple. Just a stack-oriented simple lambda calculus interpreter
22:10:46 <ais523> well, that's more interesting than most invented esolangs
22:11:00 -!- kadaver has joined.
22:11:24 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Hi, kadaver!
22:11:24 <fungot> Hi, kadaver!
22:11:29 <Gracenotes> for example, this added 5 and 7:
22:11:33 <Gracenotes> >f >x >x @ @ #x >f >x >x @ @ #x @ #f >a ?0 >b >f >a -1 @ >b +1 @ ? #b #a #f @ 5 @ 7 @
22:11:56 <Gracenotes> the first part is the Y-combinator; after that is a Peano addition
22:11:57 <ais523> reverse-polish, @ = apply?
22:11:58 <lament> it's even self-documenting!
22:11:59 <lament> @ @
22:12:10 <Gracenotes> ais523: yep.
22:12:13 <Gracenotes> on both counts
22:12:50 <kadaver> lol hi! friendly channe ?
22:12:56 <ais523> yes, friendly channel
22:13:01 <kadaver> cool
22:13:03 <Gracenotes> # makes a lambda abstraction, > recalls a variable (throwing an error if not in scope), ? is a simple condition operator, @ is apply
22:13:07 <kadaver> i wrote a bf interpreter in haskell
22:13:09 <kadaver> once
22:13:14 <ais523> we even chatted to a troll friendlily for about half an hour, I think he gave up after that
22:13:47 <ais523> hmm... seems we don't have an unlambda bot in here at the moment
22:13:53 <ais523> ehird: if you're online, bring unlambda in here?
22:14:03 <Gracenotes> unlambda? *brain hurts*
22:14:15 <ais523> Gracenotes: like lambda calculus, but without the lambdas
22:14:22 <ais523> it nevertheless manages to be turing-complete
22:14:24 <Gracenotes> yeah, SKI combinators
22:14:27 <ais523> yep
22:14:36 <ais523> with a few other things added to make it more confusing
22:14:41 <Gracenotes> nonetheless it manages to make my brain hurt :)
22:14:49 <ais523> oh, it makes everyone's brain hurt
22:15:02 <ais523> interestingly, Unlambda is rather easy to write as esolangs go, but almost impossible to read or edit
22:15:18 <Gracenotes> write meaning programs in it, or an interpreter?
22:15:23 <ais523> programs
22:15:25 <kadaver> ais523: i guess thats the most effective way to treat trolls
22:15:26 <ais523> interpreters are a lot harder
22:15:33 -!- swistakm has quit ("Lost terminal").
22:15:47 <Gracenotes> I am familiar with SKI calculus in the form of the environment monad, though
22:15:52 <ais523> yay, monads
22:16:06 -!- DH__ has joined.
22:16:26 <Gracenotes> K = unit, S = bind
22:16:33 <ais523> ^style
22:16:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp
22:16:37 <ais523> ^style wp
22:16:38 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
22:16:44 <ais523> I feel like some Wikipedian nonsense, fungot
22:16:45 <fungot> ais523: how many km long is the line? special:contributions/ fnord ( user fnord) 13:24, 27 june 2008 ( utc
22:16:48 -!- DH__ has left (?).
22:16:54 <ais523> fungot's written in Befunge
22:16:55 <fungot> ais523: thats a fairly vague definition of " not serious" ( ' spear') plus the latin and germanic " man" means " land of meadows" from the name of james d. watson? user:landerman56landerman56 ( user talk:landerman56talk) 00:14, 16 december 2007 ( utc)
22:17:04 <Gracenotes> heh. markov?
22:17:08 <ais523> yep
22:17:12 <ais523> it also does Underload and Brainfuck
22:17:30 <ais523> ^ul (Hello, world!)S
22:17:31 <fungot> Hello, world!
22:18:08 <Gracenotes> interpreted Befunge?
22:18:16 <ais523> yes
22:18:22 <ais523> it's basically impossible to compile
22:18:31 <Gracenotes> yeah. the point of it :)
22:18:36 <ais523> although someone (fizzie IRC)'s working on a JITting funge interpreter
22:18:42 <ais523> and some impls, like cfunge, are incredibly fast
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22:19:20 <Gracenotes> yeah. it is just a multidimensional array, in a sense
22:19:40 <ais523> funge-space is too big to be able to hold all in memory at once, though
22:19:47 <ais523> or indeed, all on disk without compression
22:19:53 <ais523> which makes an interesting challenge to interpret
22:20:06 <ais523> Deewiant here is the world expert on Befunge conformance testing
22:20:08 <Gracenotes> does it extend infinitely? I thought it just looped.
22:20:15 <ais523> not infinitely
22:20:15 <Gracenotes> around the edges
22:20:24 <ais523> but Befunge-98 extends to INT_MIN and INT_MAX
22:20:27 <AnMaster> fungot runs on cfunge iirc
22:20:29 <fungot> AnMaster: one reason the claim beggars the imagination is that one has some idea of what nationalism is. no wonder zoe was so fed up of dealing with bensozia in myth is carlo fnord ' ' if that is not used commonly and carries with it an implication of involvement in fnord advocacy like fnord, if that's some published author's view, then it must be made extremely clear by re-writing the introduction and then his or her unique de
22:20:32 <ais523> which is rather large, especially on a 64-bit system
22:20:48 <ais523> AnMaster: IIRC, it's been run on cfunge and RC/funge, I'm not sure which it's using atm
22:20:50 <AnMaster> ais523, efunge is bignum btw
22:20:56 <fizzie> ais523: It's been cfunge lately, yes.
22:20:57 <ais523> well, yes, so it can be infinite
22:21:04 <ais523> but it nonetheless loops around the edges
22:21:04 <Gracenotes> hm. the edges don't loop then?
22:21:04 <AnMaster> and yes I know it has been on rc/funge before
22:21:07 <Gracenotes> okay then
22:21:09 <ais523> lahey-space is fun
22:21:13 <ais523> and rather confusing
22:21:15 <AnMaster> mostly because I hadn't done SOCK in cfunge yet then
22:21:22 <Gracenotes> living on a Torus..
22:21:36 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, ah no, not exactly in b98
22:21:40 <AnMaster> I'll let ais523 explain
22:21:49 <ais523> oh dear, befunge-98 wrapping is rather complex
22:21:52 <fizzie> And I've been doing a bit of jitfunge, yes. It'll probably never be a very complete interpreter, though, I don't think I'll support threads any time soon.
22:22:01 <Deewiant> Awwwwwwwwwwwwh, GHC 6.10.2 doesn't update the extralibs, I'll have to wait for 6.12 :-/
22:22:03 <ais523> it's only like a torus if you're going in a compass direction at the time
22:22:11 <Gracenotes> yeah. I've been meaning to make an interpreter, but my understanding was that it looped like a Torus with set sizes.
22:22:21 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined.
22:22:23 <ais523> the actual looping's a sort of virtual bounce
22:22:33 <ais523> if it reaches the edge, the IP bounces but turns invisible, in a sense
22:22:41 <ais523> so it doesn't execute anything until it gets back to the opposite edge
22:22:45 <Sgeo[College]> If MSSQLServer seems to be running on computers in the computer lab, is that a sign of somethign malicious?
22:22:51 <ais523> then it starts executing again, after rebouncing
22:22:54 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: no, lots of programs use it
22:23:07 <ais523> that's the same effect as a torus when going orthogonally
22:23:08 <Gracenotes> ais523: if it's step-wise, why is the lack of execution important?
22:23:20 <ais523> Gracenotes: well, say you have abc as your program
22:23:37 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: If you have multiple threads it matters.
22:23:44 <ais523> it runs abc, then reaches the right-hand end of the program, then doesn't execute anything when going back to the left, then starts executing again from the left
22:23:52 <ais523> also, it does all this in zero time even if fungespace is infinitely larg
22:23:54 <ais523> *large
22:24:06 <Sgeo[College]> Can someone check if there's any CADIE stuff on GOOG-411?
22:24:12 <Sgeo[College]> My cell phone's not working
22:24:34 <Gracenotes> oh, multithreaded Befunge. So it's like Python's GIL then?
22:24:48 <ais523> Befunge-98 is a pretty advanced standard, really
22:24:55 <ais523> it's a major update over befunge-93
22:25:04 <Deewiant> Threads run in a predefined order, one at a time. They're not really parallel.
22:25:12 <fizzie> The wrapping is explained rather well (as far as writing an implementation is considered, and unless you bother about corner cases like jumping over the edge) in the non-appendix part of the Funge-98 spec.
22:25:32 <fizzie> "When the IP attempts to travel into the whitespace between the code and the end of known, addressable space, it backtracks. This means that its delta is reversed and it ignores (skips over without executing) all instructions. Travelling thus, it finds the other 'edge' of code when there is again nothing but whitespace in front of it. It is reflected 180 degrees once more (to restore its original delta) and stops ignoring instructions. Execution then resumes
22:25:32 <fizzie> normally - the wrap is complete."
22:25:35 <fizzie> Very pragmatic.
22:25:47 <ais523> well, jumping over the edge isn't the same in all implementations anyway
22:25:59 <ais523> so no sane programmer relies on it
22:26:12 <Gracenotes> 'sane'? :)
22:26:28 <ais523> well, some esolangers are saner than others
22:26:36 <Gracenotes> indeed, I've gathered
22:26:59 <fizzie> Also some are just saner in other ways, even though the total sum of sanity might not be larger.
22:27:17 <Sgeo[College]> What's my sanity level? And others?
22:27:23 <FireFly> Over 9000
22:27:24 <Deewiant> fungot: What's yours?
22:27:25 <fungot> Deewiant: ' ' ' fnord" by another group on methylene blue fnord amyloid fnord by promoting fnord, related to alzheimer's disease. paper was published earlier than taylor's, why is fnord
22:27:49 <fizzie> AnMaster's speed-obsession, for example, is a valid excuse for other more or less sane behaviour. In my opinion, anyway.
22:28:06 <ais523> AnMaster seems worryingly sane for a #esoteric-er
22:28:23 <ais523> and I don't think the speed obsession is a sign of insanity, it's more he's just aiming for an unusual project goal
22:28:37 <Gracenotes> fizzie: how does Befunge know where the other edge of code is?
22:28:53 <Deewiant> Magic!
22:29:03 <ais523> interpreters keep track of the outermost values of fungespace that contain non-spaces
22:29:12 <ais523> and optimise infinity down to finite values that way
22:29:21 <fizzie> Or the outermost values that have ever contained non-spaces, more likely. :p
22:29:33 <Deewiant> Unless you're running slowdown.b98, which I guess cfunge still can't handle?
22:29:52 <Gracenotes> I suppose one could have special markers?
22:30:02 <ais523> it's generally done in memory
22:30:09 <ais523> Deewiant: I thought cfunge could handle it, it was jsut slow
22:30:11 <ais523> ?
22:30:37 <Gracenotes> slowdown.b98?
22:30:38 <Deewiant> ais523: Well sure, CCBI as well, but iterating one step a time through around 2^64-1 or even 2^32-1 values takes time
22:30:43 <ehird> 22:13 ais523: we even chatted to a troll friendlily for about half an hour, I think he gave up after that
22:30:44 <ehird> WHO?>
22:30:45 <ehird> who?
22:30:47 <Deewiant> So I don't really call that handling it
22:30:56 <ais523> ehird: that person who kept saying one thing, quitting, and changing nick
22:31:07 <ehird> you mean me? ;-) :P
22:31:11 <ais523> admittedly, he wasn't in the channel when we were talking to him, but he was obviously logreading
22:31:13 <ais523> ehird: no, someone else
22:31:14 <Gracenotes> so, uh, not a very effective troll I take it
22:31:15 <kadaver> can g++ handle lambdas?
22:31:15 <fizzie> I've seen (and written) befunge-93 implementations that mark the edges of the funge-space with specific codes (like 254, 253, 252, 251) that check the x/y coordinate and then wrap if necessary; that lets you just move your IP around without having to check for wrapping. That kind of thing won't work in funge-98, of course.
22:31:16 <ehird> ais523: We were rather un-friendly, I recall.
22:31:18 <ais523> you started doing that a bit later
22:31:25 <ehird> No, I've done that forever.
22:31:29 <kadaver> wait wrong channel
22:31:31 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: iki.fi/deewiant/files/befunge/programs/slowdown.b98, something I wrote to slow down interpreters
22:31:33 <ais523> kadaver: I'm not sure, but C++ lambdas aren't proper lambdas anyway
22:31:41 * ehird tries http://apps.facebook.com/ipoverfb
22:31:46 <ehird> Your router
22:31:46 <ehird> Router operator: Elliott Hird
22:31:46 <fizzie> Does "C++ lambdas" mean the boost lambda, or what?
22:31:47 <ehird> Loopback0 address: 2001:db8:face:b00c::2024:ff0c/128
22:31:49 <ehird> Friend interfaces: 1
22:31:50 <ais523> and various bits of C++ almost qualify as esolangs by now anyway
22:31:51 <ehird> Connection proposals from friends: 0
22:31:53 <ehird> Your router does not have a default route yet... So, you cannot send traffic to the real IPv6 Internet. Please connect to more friends and wait until RIPng has converged.
22:31:54 <Gracenotes> Deewiant: /me wats at your code
22:31:56 <ehird> wow, I think it might acutally work
22:32:05 <ais523> ehird: IP over facebook?
22:32:11 <ehird> ais523: yes
22:32:15 <ehird> from that rfc
22:32:15 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: It's relatively clear for Befunge, IMO. You should take a look at Mycology ;-)
22:32:19 <ais523> classic, and no technical reason why it couldn't work
22:32:23 <ais523> where's the RFC?
22:32:30 <ehird> ais523: it's an april 1st one
22:32:31 <ais523> the april fools RFCs do usually work, after all
22:32:34 <ehird> it's for any social network
22:32:35 <ais523> apart from that evil bit one
22:32:44 <ehird> ais523: hey, that one worked!
22:32:46 <fizzie> ^style irc
22:32:46 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
22:32:46 <ais523> they wouldn't be nearly as funny if they didn't work, after all
22:32:49 <ehird> it got put in freebsd trunk, ais523
22:32:53 <fizzie> Gracenotes: Here's fungot's sources: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
22:32:53 <ais523> ehird: classic
22:32:53 <fungot> fizzie: i'd say that would be obvious... the furs never reached istanbul... you were asking if something called " parameters" that might be
22:32:56 <AnMaster> <ais523> and I don't think the speed obsession is a sign of insanity, it's more he's just aiming for an unusual project goal <-- indeed
22:32:58 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/mycology.html, the reason I'm the world expert on Befunge conformance testing
22:33:03 <ais523> ^source
22:33:03 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
22:33:08 <fizzie> (The wikipedia style is a bit too punctuation-rich for my tastes.)
22:33:24 <Sgeo[College]> Hm, is a transcript of CADIE's Triumph video available somewhere? I didn't bring my headphones to school :)
22:33:24 <Sgeo[College]> :(
22:33:40 <Gracenotes> Deewiant: uh. KB. X>X
22:33:47 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Unless you're running slowdown.b98, which I guess cfunge still can't handle? <-- more important matters showed up recently
22:33:59 <AnMaster> the fix is partly done
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22:34:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Alright, just wondering
22:34:03 <ehird> Sgeo[College]: triumph?
22:34:14 <Sgeo[College]> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDeCNf4djdY
22:34:15 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: Head asplode? :-P
22:34:29 <Gracenotes> no, the default text editor doesn't like the encoding
22:34:36 <Deewiant> It's Latin-1.
22:34:42 <Gracenotes> un sec.
22:34:51 <fizzie> Compared to Mycology, fungot's really quite readable and sane.
22:34:51 <fungot> fizzie: but they ask for pieces of papers. all but 1 register needs a temporary? when?
22:34:53 <Deewiant> Or really, it doesn't matter, to be honest.
22:34:58 <Sgeo[College]> Also, CADIE's text on the images.google.com page changed
22:35:02 <Deewiant> It's arbitrary as long as it's ASCII.
22:35:07 <ais523> fizzie: well, Mycology's a test-suite, they're /meant/ to be insane
22:35:12 <ais523> or they wouldn't be testing properly
22:35:17 <Deewiant> Although I think UTF-8 might break at some point.
22:35:39 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: There's a null byte at one point which might explain your problems.
22:35:40 <ais523> I welcome our ostensibly-written-in-INTERCAL overlords
22:36:00 <Deewiant> ais523: Well, they could still be written legibly. :-P
22:36:13 <AnMaster> <ais523> the april fools RFCs do usually work, after all <-- IMPS? Well depends on the value of "works".
22:36:14 <Deewiant> I had to fix a bug related to 1y a week ago
22:36:22 <Gracenotes> Deewiant: just seems like a lot going on
22:36:28 <Gracenotes> that's all
22:36:29 <ais523> AnMaster: the pigeon one definitely works, there have been tests
22:36:43 <AnMaster> yes
22:36:53 <Deewiant> In order to do it, I had to x to a temporary location from which I could x out to a slightly more sparse area where I had room to actually do something
22:37:11 <lament> i think wikipedia has the best april fools
22:37:16 <ais523> it always does
22:37:18 <Gracenotes> or, as the file would say, DOOG?
22:37:22 <ais523> a huge amount of effort goes into that
22:37:29 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, the encoding thing: litteral embedded null byte
22:37:32 <ais523> Gracenotes: oh, befunge strings are normally written backwards
22:37:36 <AnMaster> to check interpreters doesn't choke on it
22:37:37 <ais523> so they print out forwards
22:37:39 <Gracenotes> ais523: yep, I know that much
22:37:52 <AnMaster> (cfunge of course doesn't, my editor does though)
22:38:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did any interpreter ever choke on it?
22:38:03 <Gracenotes> push onto the stack
22:38:06 <Gracenotes> then print them
22:38:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: RC/Funge I think.
22:38:10 <lament> Did you know ... that Adam de Stratton was arrested for the possession of toenail clippings (example pictured)?
22:38:11 <Deewiant> Not sure.
22:38:14 <lament> classy
22:38:16 <AnMaster> mhm
22:38:45 -!- MizardX has joined.
22:38:47 <Deewiant> But I have to get up in around 6 hours so I'm going to bed now
22:38:49 <Deewiant> Night
22:38:57 <AnMaster> cya
22:38:58 <ais523> I love the way they mixed in a genuine UK news story
22:38:59 <AnMaster> night too
22:39:03 <AnMaster> (in a sec
22:39:04 <AnMaster> )
22:39:07 <ais523> ofc, all the others are genuine too, but mostly rewritten to look misleading
22:39:36 <ehird> New cadie blog post
22:40:18 <ehird> It's like a soap opera for ai nerds.
22:40:30 <AnMaster> ais523, about ick, what does http://code.google.com/p/cadie/source/browse/trunk/CADIE.I actually do?
22:40:38 <ehird> AnMaster: prints a constant string
22:40:42 <ais523> AnMaster: you could run it and find out
22:40:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:40:54 <AnMaster> meh
22:40:57 <ais523> but I'm disappointed that not enough people here realise it prints out a constant string, that should be obvious
22:41:06 <ais523> the actual string itself is rather harder to work out
22:41:11 <AnMaster> oh
22:41:22 <AnMaster> a fool related string I assume
22:41:34 <Gracenotes> what makes INTERCAL so (apparently) difficult?
22:42:03 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't you say it didn't run in ick?
22:42:07 <AnMaster> I don't have clc around
22:42:08 <ais523> it does run in ick
22:42:14 <ais523> it's clc it didn't run in, I ported her
22:42:22 <ais523> Gracenotes: lack of usual arithmetic and flow control operators
22:42:45 <Gracenotes> ah. so how are conditions generally handler.
22:42:47 <lament> Gracenotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:INTERCAL_Circuitous_Diagram.svg
22:42:48 <Gracenotes> *handled?
22:43:04 <ais523> Gracenotes: in INTERCAL-72, the usual trick is to do a computed function return
22:43:10 <ais523> you create a wrapper function
22:43:25 <ais523> and return either from it if the condition's true, or the function that called it if the condition's false
22:43:36 <ais523> in INTERCAL, you can return from a function other than the one you're in at the time, which is rather confusing
22:43:50 <ehird> I bet cadie is actually real and we just haven't realisd it yet./
22:44:00 <ais523> well, that can't be genuine source
22:44:07 <ais523> but maybe cadie hid her source
22:44:23 <ehird> ais523: the source says I don't feel like sharing, right?
22:44:26 <ais523> yes
22:44:31 <ais523> or something like that
22:44:37 <ehird> so presumably the source is a joke by cadie in this cadie-is-real alternate universe
22:44:46 <ais523> yes
22:45:03 <ais523> in more recent INTERCAL, by the way, computed COME FROM and computed ABSTAIN are the favoured way to do conditional branches
22:45:07 -!- nooga has joined.
22:45:12 <nooga> moin
22:45:15 <Gracenotes> ah, COME FROM. Nearly as sane as goto.
22:45:32 <ais523> computed COME FROM presents some interesting hurdles for implementors
22:45:37 <ais523> I should know, I maintain C-INTERCAL
22:46:16 <Gracenotes> ah, interesting
22:46:21 <nooga> meh
22:46:24 * Gracenotes met ESR once
22:46:24 <ais523> new version out today
22:46:36 <ais523> hmm... what was he like?
22:46:38 <ehird> "Hey I bought it for awhile. It was believable... However the favorited video "bye bye panda" kind of maade me completely doubt the reality of it. And if AI was real, it would have been all over the news if it was on YouTube. Nice try, Google. "
22:46:42 <ehird> how on earth can you believe that
22:46:48 <ehird> Gracenotes: oh god
22:46:50 <ehird> I am so, so sorry
22:46:53 <ehird> I had no idea
22:46:58 <Gracenotes> :P
22:46:58 <ehird> :-(
22:47:00 <ais523> I've never met him
22:47:23 <ais523> my C-INTERCAL is technically a fork, but because the original had been discontinued for years it became the de-facto official version
22:47:43 <fizzie> Alan Cox was in Finland in a small meet-thing-thing, but that's the extent to which I've met any Linux-famous people.
22:48:00 <nooga> wow
22:48:15 <AnMaster> cool
22:48:29 <Gracenotes> I once almost met Bjourne, of C++ fame
22:48:35 <ais523> *Bjarne?
22:48:39 <Gracenotes> er, yes
22:48:41 <ehird> no, not him
22:48:44 <fizzie> How did I manage to misread wikipedia's summary "Alan Cox -- is a British computer programmer heavily involved in the development of the Linux kernel --" as something like "Alan Cox -- is a British computer programmer often heavily drunk".
22:48:45 <ehird> Bjourne Stroustrup
22:48:46 <ehird> his evil brother
22:48:53 <Gracenotes> I actually don't recall.
22:48:55 <Gracenotes> the C++ dude.
22:48:57 <ehird> the C++ was a joke article was written by him
22:48:59 <ehird> a fun prank.
22:49:03 <AnMaster> ehird, fizzie: Linus number.
22:49:07 <nooga> i'm in a pub, owning their wifi ap
22:49:08 <Gracenotes> but it was not to be. I totally missed his lecture :\
22:49:23 <ehird> AnMaster: 'has written code in the same file as'?
22:49:25 <ehird> if so, many hundreds.
22:49:26 <ehird> thousands.
22:49:54 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure how to define it so it is exclusive enough, yet allows us in #esoteric to get low ones
22:50:04 <AnMaster> ;P
22:50:19 <ais523> personally, I think CADIE is just Google's attempt to compete with Wolfram Alpha
22:50:27 <ehird> ais523: that thing still exists?
22:50:33 <nooga> CADIE is a prank
22:50:34 <nooga> ;p
22:50:35 <Sgeo[College]> ais523: did you see images.google.com ? Not the one with unicorns
22:50:40 <ais523> no, i didn't
22:50:41 <ehird> nooga: no shit sherlock!
22:50:43 <ehird> you're a genius!
22:50:45 <ais523> nooga: but she's written in INTERCAL!
22:50:50 <nooga> indeed
22:50:56 -!- nooga has changed nick to cpt_obvious.
22:51:02 <Gracenotes> heh, C/C++/C# in http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/
22:51:12 <ehird> Gracenotes: all of them say that
22:51:18 <ehird> that's the first intercal mention
22:51:23 <ais523> ehird: not that, just the name of the language is silly
22:51:24 <Sgeo[College]> Different languages have slightly different responses
22:51:26 <ais523> I mean, C/C++/C#
22:51:26 <Gracenotes> yeah
22:51:29 <ehird> ais523: well, yeah
22:51:30 <ais523> those are pretty different langs
22:51:32 <ehird> they're all c-alikes
22:51:35 <ehird> but true
22:51:35 <Sgeo[College]> Tailored to the language
22:51:36 <ais523> so is Java!
22:51:42 <Gracenotes> "CADIE is busy working on a new translator that will allow you to use INTERCAL with GWT instead of Java. Check back soon!"
22:51:48 <ehird> ais523: probably copied from google code search; as in, the syntaces are similar so it searches them together
22:51:49 <ehird> who knows
22:51:51 <Gracenotes> my favorite one :)
22:52:10 <ais523> well, C-INTERCAL allows linking INTERCAL with C or Befunge code
22:52:21 <Sgeo[College]> Be back soon
22:52:35 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
22:54:44 <cpt_obvious> there are no clear docs covering P6 architecture
22:55:39 <ehird> cpt_obvious: wut? ?
22:55:49 <ehird> who where what why when did you come from and wut
22:55:59 <ehird> oh
22:56:01 <ehird> you're nooga
22:56:54 <cpt_obvious> ehird: no shit sherlock!
22:57:01 <ehird> :D
22:57:05 <cpt_obvious> you're a genius!
22:57:12 <cpt_obvious> >:D
22:57:18 <ehird> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
22:57:28 <FireFly> Heh
22:57:56 * ais523 gives FireFly an anti-swat shielf
22:57:58 <ais523> *sheild
22:58:05 <FireFly> Woo
22:58:20 <Gracenotes> hrm. are there any good logic esolangs?
22:58:26 <ehird> Gracenotes: prolog :-)
22:58:30 <ais523> what do you mean by "logic esolangs"/
22:58:32 <ehird> so, when does cadie give us brain implants?
22:58:36 <Gracenotes> ha. ha. ha.
22:58:38 <ais523> prolog isn't an esolang, but it's pretty interesting anyway
22:58:41 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined.
22:58:45 <Gracenotes> vary funay ehird.
22:58:48 <ais523> and not used nearly as much as it should be
22:58:51 <Sgeo[College]> New entry on Cadie's blog
22:58:54 <ehird> i am haurmor murster
22:58:59 <ehird> no
22:59:00 <ehird> that's not new
22:59:05 <Gracenotes> ais523: mainly modeled after Prolog, though.
22:59:07 <ehird> I said it was new 5 minutes ago
22:59:17 <Sgeo[College]> Oh
22:59:34 <ais523> Gracenotes: I don't know of any declarative esolangs offhand
22:59:35 <Gracenotes> constraint programming, satisfiability, probably with unification/backtracking
22:59:45 <Gracenotes> although that does sound rather esoteric as it is
22:59:49 <ais523> I have a couple but have never got around to writing the specs
23:00:02 <ais523> Proud's basically Prolog with all the restrictions removed, but it's uncomputable
23:00:07 <ehird> this is really elaborate for an april fool's
23:00:15 <ehird> guess google decided to go all out
23:00:16 <Sgeo[College]> I don't see in the log where you mentioned a new post
23:00:18 <ais523> and Cyclexa's a potentially-practical esolang project, but I haven't really got very far with it
23:00:21 <ehird> Sgeo[College]: I do
23:00:29 <Sgeo[College]> What was the exact line?
23:00:30 <ehird> 22:39 ehird: New cadie blog post
23:00:31 <ehird> 22:40 ehird: It's like a soap opera for ai nerds.
23:00:32 <FireFly> Googling for "Cadie" gives me a news result telling me it's an april fools.. Very clever, Google
23:00:33 <ais523> which is based on a cross between regexps and Prolog
23:00:49 <ehird> FireFly: err cadie is an april fools is that what you're saying?
23:00:52 <FireFly> No
23:00:53 <FireFly> But
23:00:59 <ais523> one of the reasons that Cyclexa's on hold, by the way, is that Perl are stealing all my ideas :(
23:01:26 <FireFly> I get newspaper hits telling me it is, IMO it'd be better if people didn't get to know it is that easy
23:01:38 <ehird> FireFly: 1. it's blindingly obvious
23:01:44 <ehird> 2. google would never tamper their results like that
23:01:45 <FireFly> Well, true
23:01:49 <ehird> that's just not the done thing
23:02:26 <ehird> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/5897/ yespls
23:02:47 <Sgeo[College]> Cadie is still an ongoing story, though. It's not "Oh, Google did a quick joke, end of story". Knowing that CADIE is an April 1st prank is like knowing that a novel is fiction
23:03:03 <ehird> wait
23:03:04 <ehird> novels are fictional?
23:03:09 <ehird> :x
23:03:19 <cpt_obvious> wut?
23:03:31 <ais523> cpt_obvious: </AnMaster>
23:03:41 <AnMaster> what?
23:03:54 <cpt_obvious> ais523: (quit)
23:03:57 <ais523> AnMaster: you've become a synonym for whooosh
23:04:01 <AnMaster> ...
23:04:04 <AnMaster> since when?
23:04:07 <ais523> possibly unfairly
23:04:17 <ehird> since you never do anything but woosh to non-oerjan jokes, AnMaster
23:04:26 <AnMaster> ais523, could you write Proud be written in Feather?
23:04:38 <ais523> no, Proud's uncomputable, Feather is not super-TC
23:04:39 <Sgeo[College]> I think my professor's writing broken code
23:04:46 <Sgeo[College]> nope
23:04:46 <ais523> although Feather hurts my head, and I don't want my brain to explode right now
23:04:48 <Sgeo[College]> darn
23:04:53 <cpt_obvious> Sgeo[College]: highly propable
23:04:54 <AnMaster> ais523, right. Was just wondering
23:05:09 <cpt_obvious> wut's Feather?
23:05:17 <ehird> NO
23:05:17 <ais523> oh dear
23:05:19 <ehird> cpt_obvious: unask that question
23:05:24 <ehird> QUICK DAMMIT YOU FOOL
23:05:26 <cpt_obvious> no
23:05:29 <ais523> err, yes, unasking is probably best for all concerned
23:05:29 <ehird> gaaaaaaaaaaaaah
23:05:30 <cpt_obvious> i refuse
23:05:32 <ehird> the answer is mu, cpt_obvious
23:05:33 <ais523> or I'll have to try to answer
23:05:37 <ehird> there, I unasked it for you
23:05:41 <Sgeo[College]> Darn, his code works I think
23:06:01 <Sgeo[College]> I like to think my code's easier, but I'm less certain that it works
23:06:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have a compulsive disorder about writing down that I laughed about everything.
23:06:05 <ais523> cpt_obvious: I suggest you ask in #feather-lang, I think it's empty atm so it'll be safe to ask
23:06:06 <AnMaster> maybe that is what you meant
23:06:07 <ais523> let me check, actually
23:06:18 <ehird> AnMaster: err, just try and shift the mocking on to other people badly why don't you
23:06:19 <AnMaster> sometimes I do notice jokes but never mention that :P
23:06:21 <ais523> oh, not quite, ChanServ's in there
23:06:22 <ehird> if only it workd
23:06:22 <ehird> ed
23:06:32 <cpt_obvious> erm
23:06:46 <cpt_obvious> did i mention that i'm in a pub
23:06:51 <ais523> yes, you did
23:06:54 <ehird> he did?
23:07:00 <ais523> which is another reason not to explain Feather right now
23:07:01 <ehird> don't tell AnMaster
23:07:02 <AnMaster> ais523, empty? I added it to autojoin now
23:07:12 <ais523> explaining Feather to someone /who is drunk/ probably would cause a fatality
23:07:12 <ehird> ais523: I don't know; alcohol may well improve perception of Feather
23:07:22 <ais523> well, ok
23:07:24 <cpt_obvious> i'm here with my boss an we're owning wifi networks and drinking :D
23:07:33 <ehird> although hallucinogens would probably fare better
23:07:55 <cpt_obvious> WTF is Feather
23:08:08 <ehird> cpt_obvious: feather is like, like, like, a trip, except the drug is time, man
23:08:12 <ehird> and it trips your code, man.
23:08:14 <ehird> Got it?
23:08:17 <ehird> Oh, retroactively.
23:08:18 <ehird> Man.
23:08:27 <AnMaster> cpt_obvious, it lets you redefine the language itself, while running
23:08:28 <ehird> Infinite. (Man.)
23:08:31 <ehird> AnMaster: er, no
23:08:32 <ehird> that's trivial
23:08:35 <ais523> AnMaster: that's boring, even Perl can do that
23:08:36 <ehird> many languages have that
23:08:41 <AnMaster> ehird, that is one part of it
23:08:43 <ais523> it lets you redefine what the language /was/ retroactively
23:08:43 <AnMaster> there is more yes
23:08:47 <ais523> which is slightly different
23:08:49 <ehird> AnMaster: no, that's totally misrepresenting it
23:08:50 <ais523> and yes, there's more
23:08:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I was about to get to that
23:08:59 <AnMaster> do it step by step
23:09:00 <ais523> the retroactivity's the whole point
23:09:01 <cpt_obvious> whrea are the docs?
23:09:05 <ais523> seeing as nothing in Feather can ever change
23:09:05 <AnMaster> haha
23:09:07 <ais523> cpt_obvious: there aren't any
23:09:11 <ehird> cpt_obvious: /home/ais523/mind
23:09:13 <ais523> at least, I wrote some but they were wrong
23:09:15 <cpt_obvious> ah yes
23:09:23 <ehird> please don't try and grep it; it's very painful I hear
23:09:43 <AnMaster> ehird, /dev/ais523_mind .. duh
23:09:53 <Gracenotes> *pokes the esolang wikio*
23:09:54 <Sgeo[College]> Got a 100 on my C++ exam
23:09:57 <ehird> AnMaster: err, that's bad hierarchy
23:10:00 <ehird> isn't that right ais523?
23:10:01 <cpt_obvious> vodka has simple system
23:10:01 <Gracenotes> slow...
23:10:11 <Gracenotes> -i
23:10:13 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but that is because it is in a real OS
23:10:14 <Gracenotes> er -o
23:10:14 <AnMaster> :P
23:10:23 <ehird> AnMaster: what
23:10:28 <ais523> ehird: I'm not sure if I'm in a /dev
23:10:34 <cpt_obvious> it's like s/// regexp with some addons to change states while running
23:10:40 <ehird> ais523: I said /home/ais523/mind
23:10:47 <ais523> well, yes
23:10:47 <ehird> AnMaster "corrected" it as /dev/ais523_mind, which is silly
23:10:53 <ais523> they're both wrong, clearly
23:11:03 <AnMaster> ehird, real OS have flaws. Weird bits, ideal on the paper ones maybe doesn't. But there are always some dark corners in any actually existing OS
23:11:03 <ais523> you think I keep my mind in a /filesystem/?
23:11:26 <ehird> AnMaster: er, there's nothing stopping you making /home/ais523/mind
23:11:32 <ehird> as a device file
23:11:38 <ehird> thinking otherwise is just ignorance
23:11:40 <AnMaster> ais523, no, but there is a block device representing it
23:11:41 <FireFly> Well, since ais523 IS a dev[eloper]
23:11:47 <FireFly> he fits in /dev
23:11:48 <ais523> really?
23:11:55 <ais523> technically speaking, I'm an engineer
23:11:57 <AnMaster> ehird, there is. /home mounted nodev
23:12:07 <ehird> AnMaster: /dev mounted nodev
23:12:16 <ehird> WHAT NOW! Oh wait, you set your file system up retardedly so you get retarded results.
23:12:16 <ais523> ehird: haha, you should so do that someday
23:12:21 <AnMaster> ehird, system wouldn't boot
23:12:27 <ais523> AnMaster: why not?
23:12:27 <ehird> AnMaster: who cares
23:12:29 <ehird> it's SECURE like that!
23:12:33 <ehird> and FAST!
23:12:37 <ais523> I don't think there's any technical reason why you can't boot with /dev set nodev
23:12:38 <ehird> Doing nothing is EXTRA SPEEDY.
23:12:43 <ehird> If you need more you could BENCHMARK IT
23:12:52 <AnMaster> ais523, /dev/console and /dev/null are needed at least for some core system parts. udev, init and a few other ones iirc
23:12:54 <ais523> although it would depend on how your init worked
23:12:56 <AnMaster> actually
23:13:04 <ais523> AnMaster: init can be very simple
23:13:16 <ais523> what you mean is /your/ system wouldn't boot, because your init is trying to be too clever
23:13:20 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah but I meant on a GNU/Linux system
23:13:27 <AnMaster> thought you used that?
23:13:33 <ais523> well, yes
23:13:40 <ais523> but even so, you can get inits that don't care about /dev
23:13:41 <AnMaster> hm /dev/zero not /dev/null iirc
23:13:42 <cpt_obvious> and then you can define delimiters
23:13:44 <AnMaster> unsure
23:13:53 <ais523> you could just set init to ash or something on the bootlodaer, for instance
23:14:07 <Sgeo[College]> ash?
23:14:13 <cpt_obvious> for a string that compiles to the base language in a previously defined way
23:14:16 <kadaver> whats thats esotericlanguage with all the parenthesises called?
23:14:16 <kadaver> :P
23:14:19 <AnMaster> ais523, it would want some tty I think
23:14:22 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: one of the simplest shs around atm
23:14:27 <cpt_obvious> and then in that language you can do the same etc etc
23:14:28 <ais523> AnMaster: you can have a tty without having /dev available
23:14:28 <AnMaster> ais523, not sure how that would be handled..
23:14:33 <ais523> obviously
23:14:33 <Sgeo[College]> dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/ais523_mind
23:14:35 <kadaver> (map (lambda (x)(* x x)) '(1 2 3))
23:14:40 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: EPERM, luckily
23:14:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess kernel hands it over as an open fd?
23:14:58 <AnMaster> actually invoking init would be weird I guess
23:14:58 <ais523> I think so
23:15:04 <ais523> although it's probably just the serial connection
23:15:18 <AnMaster> ?
23:15:19 <kadaver> write a kernel in brainfuck,then you have secured maintenance work for the rest of your life=the wya IT works
23:15:21 <ais523> and the kernel invokes init by setting up memory as if it was a userspace process, then simulating fork/exec
23:15:30 <Sgeo[College]> If EPERM means read-only, did you just say you never learn?
23:15:38 <ais523> no, EPERM means you aren't allowed to do that
23:15:38 <kadaver> is writing a toy-kernel hard?
23:15:44 <ais523> so it's read-only for you, but isn't for me
23:15:49 <ais523> kadaver: not particularly
23:16:03 <Sgeo[College]> sudo dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/ais523_mind
23:16:04 <ais523> in UNIX, how readable or writable a file is depends on who's reading or writing
23:16:07 <ais523> the same in Windows, actually
23:16:14 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: you aren't in the admin group for my mind
23:16:17 <ais523> in fact, I don't think I am
23:16:26 <Gracenotes> ((:[]) . join (*)) =<< [1, 2, 3]
23:17:05 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
23:18:37 <kadaver> ais523: how many LOC can you get away with doing something minimal? I heard the initial linux kernel linus released was just 10K loc
23:18:47 <ais523> depends on how minimal
23:19:00 <ais523> if all you want with your kernel is to run some minimal esolangs, you can do it well under a KB of machine code
23:19:14 <ais523> asiekierka isn't here, but IIRC he was working on something like that
23:19:18 <ais523> a live-esolang floppy disk
23:19:41 <cpt_obvious> oh
23:19:46 <cpt_obvious> i'm writing toy kernel
23:20:49 <Gracenotes> heh, it seems there's no working IRP interpreter currently
23:20:52 <cpt_obvious> multiprocess kernel with a memory manager, own filesystem and multiple text terminal
23:20:56 <cpt_obvious> and it sucks
23:21:00 <kadaver> ais523: well i guess it depends on how you define kernel. what would en esolang kernel need to be able to do?
23:21:08 <ais523> Gracenotes: #IRP is actually surprisingly active today
23:21:15 <ais523> normally it idles for weeks at a time
23:21:20 <ais523> kadaver: run esolangs
23:21:23 <Gracenotes> hrm, really
23:21:26 <ais523> and some esolangs have very small interps
23:21:39 <ais523> Gracenotes: it seems some teacher's set a university project on IRP
23:21:45 <ais523> and all the students have been coming in there asking for help
23:21:55 <ais523> weirder things have happened, I suppose...
23:21:59 <cpt_obvious> IRP?
23:22:01 <Sgeo[College]> ais523: I missed that?
23:22:06 <Sgeo[College]> Any logs?
23:22:22 <ais523> it isn't logged, unfortunately
23:22:40 <cpt_obvious> ah this IRP
23:22:40 <ais523> but you saw the conversation with DH__, at least
23:23:08 -!- neldoreth has joined.
23:23:13 <ais523> hmm... seems idle again
23:23:24 <ais523> lecture's probably over
23:23:50 <kadaver> multiple text terminal = multiple windows? any graphics?
23:27:04 <cpt_obvious> bbl
23:33:57 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:35:25 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:38:10 <AnMaster> night
23:40:03 <FireFly> Nighty
23:40:42 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:43:41 <ehird> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl
23:44:07 <ais523> that's been there for a while
23:44:12 <ais523> I'm not sure what to do about it
23:44:17 <ais523> the article's also confusing, too
23:44:26 <ehird> ais523: i was referring to the last section
23:44:28 <ehird> which is new
23:44:33 <ais523> oh
23:44:50 <ais523> that can be golfed by at least three characters
23:45:02 <ais523> probably four, actually
23:45:08 <ehird> ais523: how?
23:45:12 <ehird> apart from removing the space
23:45:13 <ehird> which is boring
23:45:21 <ehird> eval join"\n",<>
23:45:33 <ehird> when all you can shave off is whitespace and a ;, it's not cool any more.
23:45:44 <ehird> leaving them in is saying "I'm so good at golfing, I'm just going to leave this low-hanging fruit."
23:46:18 <lament> low-hanging fruit is generally the tastiest
23:46:27 <ais523> ehird: heh
23:46:36 <ais523> I was going to change the \n to a literal newline
23:46:40 <ais523> that's what saves the last character
23:47:50 <ehird> #!/usr/bin/env perl
23:47:50 <ehird> # Released under the MIT license.
23:47:51 <ehird> #
23:47:53 <ehird> # TODO: add POD docs
23:47:55 <ehird> use strict;
23:47:57 <ehird> use warnings;
23:47:59 <ehird> my @lines = <>;
23:48:01 <ehird> my $code = join("\n", @lines);
23:48:03 <fizzie> Uh... why is the newline even needed there? I thought that if you do <> in a list context, the elements returned still contain any newlines present.
23:48:04 <ehird> eval($code);
23:48:05 <ehird> #- end of file -
23:48:07 <ehird> damn, my whitespace was tarnished
23:48:09 <ehird> #!/usr/bin/env perl
23:48:12 <ehird>
23:48:13 <ehird> # Released under the MIT license.
23:48:15 <ehird> #
23:48:17 <ehird> # TODO: add POD docs
23:48:20 <ehird>
23:48:21 <ehird> use strict;
23:48:24 <ehird> use warnings;
23:48:25 <ehird>
23:48:27 <ehird> my @lines = <>;
23:48:29 <ehird> my $code = join("\n", @lines);
23:48:31 <ehird>
23:48:33 <ehird> eval($code);
23:48:35 <ehird>
23:48:37 <ehird> #- end of file -
23:48:39 <ehird> fizzie: eval isn't in a list context is it
23:48:41 <ehird> eval join <> just reads one line
23:48:43 <ehird> since the first argument is the sep
23:48:48 <ais523> fizzie: oh, you're right
23:48:57 <fizzie> Huh? join <> definitely uses <> in a list context.
23:49:04 <ais523> yep
23:49:05 <ehird> fizzie: perl -e'eval join <>'
23:49:07 <ehird> only reads one line
23:49:10 <ehird> I know this because _i tested it_
23:49:12 <fizzie> Yes, but "".
23:49:16 <ehird> Oh.
23:49:17 <fizzie> You don't need a newline.
23:49:18 <ehird> Well, sure.
23:49:33 <ehird> edited.
23:49:38 <ehird> great, wiki formatting fucked it
23:49:53 <ehird> Fixed.
23:49:59 <ais523> perl -0e'eval(<>)'
23:50:03 <ais523> considerably smaller again
23:50:07 <ehird> ais523: no fair
23:50:12 <ehird> that's using the command line
23:50:18 <ehird> also, perl -0e'eval <>' is shorter still
23:50:19 <ais523> oh, it doesn't need the parens
23:50:28 <ehird> but `eval join '', <>;` doesn't use the command line, and is pretty
23:50:29 <ais523> and perl -0e'eval<>' is shorter still
23:50:33 <ehird> so THERE
23:50:35 <ais523> the parens were to force list context
23:50:44 <ais523> but you don't need list context there
23:51:12 <ehird> ais523: what is the value of $x after:
23:51:20 <ehird> sub foo { return (1, 2, 3); }
23:51:23 <ehird> my $x = foo();
23:51:25 <ehird> ?
23:51:33 <ais523> 3 I think
23:51:38 <ehird> x_x
23:51:41 <ais523> foo returns an array, an array in scalar context returns its length
23:51:49 <ehird> oh
23:51:53 <ehird> I thought you meant last element
23:51:54 <ehird> heh
23:52:00 <ais523> no, that would be stupid
23:52:03 <ehird> yes
23:52:11 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 3); } my $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:52:11 <fizzie> x 3
23:52:11 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 1, 1); } my $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:52:11 <fizzie> x 1
23:52:25 <fizzie> Explain.
23:52:29 <ais523> hmm... maybe I'm wrong
23:52:33 <ehird> fizzie: guh
23:52:47 <ehird> [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } my $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:52:47 <ehird> x 7
23:52:51 <ehird> Yes — that would be, and is, stupid.
23:52:51 <Sgeo[College]> Ugh, I think I'm too tired to think properly
23:53:00 <fizzie> I really didn't think it'd actually return the last element.
23:53:06 <Sgeo[College]> The professor just put up his solution, and it's saner and less wtf'y than mine
23:53:06 <ais523> what happens if you separate the my and the $x?
23:53:16 <Sgeo[College]> I mean, mine is a WTF
23:53:17 <ais523> the my may be forcing list context
23:53:27 <ehird> [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } my $x; $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:53:27 <ehird> x 7
23:53:33 <ais523> aargh
23:53:34 <ehird> [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'x 7
23:53:40 <ehird> FUCK PERL :-D
23:54:00 <Sgeo[College]> http://rafb.net/p/pqWjyX34.html
23:54:03 * Sgeo[College] slaps self
23:54:19 <ehird> Sgeo[College]: NOT RAFB
23:54:29 <Sgeo[College]> Which pastebin?
23:54:35 <Sgeo[College]> Should I use?
23:54:38 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: is that yours or the professors?
23:54:41 <ais523> also, use rafb, it annoys ehird
23:54:43 <Sgeo[College]> ais523: mine
23:55:04 <ais523> that's pretty elegant IMO, half the checks are redundant, but they make the code clearer
23:55:37 <ehird> LOGGET READERS: http://www.nopaste.com/p/atKQKnKjab
23:55:47 <Sgeo[College]> First time writing it, I actually made the mistake of 90 <= num_grade <= 100
23:55:49 <Sgeo[College]> for example
23:55:56 <ehird> python lets you do that
23:56:10 <fizzie> What is even weirder is this:
23:56:11 <ehird> say, is there an efficient way to do 'round x up to the nearest power of 2?'
23:56:12 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { my @a = (1, 2, 7); return @a; } my $x; $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:56:12 <fizzie> x 3
23:56:18 -!- kadaver has left (?).
23:56:18 <ais523> ehird: yep, see that bithacks thing
23:56:19 <ehird> fizzie: LOL WAT
23:56:26 <ehird> ais523: relinketj?
23:56:35 <fizzie> I guess "return @a" there is in a non-list context. Or what is happening?
23:56:41 <ais523> fizzie: I've just figured it out
23:56:52 <ais523> you're calling sub foo in a scalar context
23:56:53 <ehird> [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { (1, 2, 7); } $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:56:53 <ehird> x 7
23:56:58 -!- cpt_obvious has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:56:58 <fizzie> Does it use the comma expression instead of list there in the return (1, 2, 7)?
23:57:01 <ehird> ais523: well sure and?
23:57:01 <ais523> so you're writing return (1, 2, 7)
23:57:10 <ais523> that means the return is evaluated in a scalar context
23:57:15 <ais523> so that's the comma operator, not an array literal
23:57:15 <ehird> and?
23:57:19 <ehird> oh god
23:57:23 <ais523> the subroutine parses differently depending on how you call it
23:57:24 <ehird> that's just hideous
23:57:31 <ais523> everyone loves Perl!
23:57:34 <ehird> it changes your code semantics depending on how it's called?
23:57:34 <fizzie> Yeah, something like that was my guess too. Heh.
23:57:35 <Sgeo[College]> Is CADIE done putting links on the side?
23:57:37 <ehird> good lord
23:57:41 <ehird> can you imagine how much that breaks?
23:57:48 <ais523> not very often, actually
23:57:59 <ehird> ;_;
23:58:17 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } my $x = foo(); my @x = foo(); print "x-scalar $x, x-list ", join(" ", @x), "\n";'
23:58:17 <fizzie> x-scalar 7, x-list 1 2 7
23:58:18 <ehird> ais523: sorry, have an urge: i said how much, not how often
23:58:22 <ehird> so your response is a non-sequitur
23:58:27 <ehird> urge over
23:59:08 <fizzie> I think this sort of Perl nastiness is a nice point to go to sleep; night.
23:59:11 <ais523> fizzie: and scalar @x would be 3, in that case
23:59:19 <ais523> night
23:59:25 <ehird> night
2009-04-02
00:00:26 * ais523 vaguely wonders what foo would do in void context, but it's probably optimized out
00:02:51 <ehird> #perl on CADIE:
00:02:52 <ehird> 00:02 sproingie: mmmKAY
00:02:56 <ehird> "yeah wut eva"
00:03:08 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:03:20 <ehird> hi oerjan
00:03:20 <Sgeo[College]> The Perl people don't care for CADIE?
00:03:28 <oerjan> hi ehird
00:03:35 <ehird> Sgeo[College]: one perl person finds it stupid, I think is more accurate
00:03:35 <ais523> well, it seems that Slashdot achievements are here to stay
00:03:47 <ehird> ais523: achivements?
00:03:55 <ehird> also, what was /.'s ap foos?
00:04:03 <ais523> ehird: there were several
00:04:07 <ais523> but achievements were their on-site things
00:04:14 <ais523> it's basically a concept taken from MMOs
00:04:25 <ais523> http://slashdot.org/~ais523/achievements probably explains it better than I could, anyway
00:04:32 <ehird> hahah
00:04:36 <ehird> that's gotta be not real
00:04:56 <ehird> 00:03 sproingie: my attention span isn't letting me read the texty bits
00:04:56 <ehird> 00:03 sproingie: "on april 1 2009, skynet achieved consciousness. and decided it liked pandas"
00:05:02 <ehird> Update: sproingie has severe ADHD.
00:05:04 <ais523> with Slashdot, you never know
00:05:10 <ehird> And is obnoxious.
00:05:15 <Sgeo[College]> The Contradictor
00:05:21 <ehird> Hmm, so nothing I didn't know. #perl is not that much of a good channel.
00:05:25 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: for putting a negative tag on something
00:05:31 <ais523> many of them are really easy, it seems
00:05:43 <ais523> I wonder how many people will try to get as many as possible?
00:06:07 <ehird> http://news.php.net/php.internals/41374/uq ← Wow, php guys have a good april fools for once
00:06:32 <ais523> ehird: that one's genuine
00:06:34 <ais523> look at the daet
00:06:35 <ais523> *date
00:06:38 <ehird> ais523: WHOOSH!
00:06:40 <ais523> I've known about it for a while, anyway
00:06:53 <ehird> That was a gale-force wind trying to go over your head but knocking you over instead.
00:09:35 <ehird> anyone have that perl script that moves the window around in waves?
00:10:17 <ehird> 00:09 Limbic_Region: sparc - no, you should be prematurely worrying about optimization
00:10:24 <ais523> heh
00:11:14 <ais523> also, wow at the other choices they considered for namespace separators
00:11:17 <ais523> :) was one of them
00:11:20 <ehird> yep
00:11:30 <ehird> PHP:)Is:)Awesome
00:11:47 <ehird> [16:09:18] <@CelloG> i.e. foo::bar might be a short name - class foo, method bar, but it could also be a long name, function foo::bar
00:11:48 <ehird> [16:09:25] <@CelloG> and the engine just assumes it is a short name
00:11:49 <ehird> [16:09:36] <@CelloG> and that is why :: is fatally flawed as a separator
00:11:53 <ehird> YOUR IMPLEMENTATION SUCKS
00:12:27 <ais523> oh, I see the problem, namespaces and classes are separate in PHP
00:12:56 <ais523> still, Perl used to use ' as a namespace separator
00:13:02 <ais523> that was really fun
00:13:05 <ehird> what?!
00:13:09 <ehird> example?
00:13:09 <ais523> IIRC it's still accepted for backwards compatibility
00:13:13 <ais523> although :: is more usual
00:14:25 <ais523> $ perl
00:14:27 <ais523> use Language'INTERCAL'Parser
00:14:34 <ehird> ais523: and then youc an do
00:14:40 <ehird> Language'INTERCAL'Parser->new()?
00:14:45 <ehird> > _______________________________________________ <
00:14:48 <ehird> ;-;
00:14:50 <ehird> ;_;
00:15:08 <ais523> $ perl
00:15:09 <ais523> use Language'INTERCAL'Parser;
00:15:11 <ais523> my $x = Language'INTERCAL'Parser->new();
00:15:12 <ais523> Usage: new Language::INTERCAL::Parser(SYMBOLTABLE) at - line 2
00:15:14 <ais523> the last line is perl's output
00:15:29 <ais523> VHDL still uses ' to extract metadata from things
00:15:32 <ais523> and also as a cast operator
00:16:01 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
00:16:12 <ais523> write (l, String'("Hello world!"));
00:16:18 <ais523> <--- a line from the standard VHDL hello world
00:17:41 <ehird> :x
00:18:08 <ais523> oh, and /also/ to delimit characters
00:18:30 <ais523> the other use is, for instance a'lower to get the lower bound of array a
00:18:34 <ehird> After a lot of research, I discovered the third one was in
00:18:34 <ehird> fact Baudot (the INTERCAL variety, I believe)
00:18:37 <ehird> ok, wtf
00:18:42 <ehird> how come coppro knows everything?
00:18:55 <ehird> maybe he's secretly CADIE
00:19:08 <ais523> well, the only Baudot encoder/decoder I know of is the one that comes with C-INTERCAL
00:19:16 <ais523> oh, and CLC-INTERCAL itself, ofc
00:19:27 <ais523> it's a 19th-century encoding, after all
00:21:07 <ais523> anyway, that Baudot was a polygolt
00:21:09 <ais523> *polyglot
00:21:17 <ais523> between the traditional and INTERCAL versions
00:21:27 <ais523> why have one when you can have both?
00:21:56 <ehird> ais523: hmm, do you know coppro, perchanc?
00:21:56 <ehird> e
00:21:59 <ehird> It seems likely
00:22:05 <ais523> not outside Agora
00:23:46 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:24:12 <ehird> I think cadie's committed suicide or something.
00:24:31 <ais523> maybe they switched her off
00:24:41 * kerlo goes to google.co.uk to check on the ehird version of CADIE
00:24:54 <ais523> hmm... google's pretty slow atm
00:24:57 <ehird> fun fact: I am the only brit
00:25:40 <kerlo> Actually, there are seven Brits. ehird is one, and the six others make up the entirety of the BBC.
00:25:56 <ehird> kerlo: they just swap costumes a lot?
00:26:03 <ehird> also, where will i work when I grow up? The BBC?
00:26:14 <kerlo> Probably.
00:26:20 <ehird> :-D
00:26:31 <ehird> kerlo: seven brits is more than the 3 finns
00:26:38 <ehird> (of which 5 or 6 are in here; I forget
00:26:38 <ehird> )
00:27:16 <kerlo> Actually, I'm mistaken. There are seven people at the BBC, but one isn't officially a member; she just joins them whenever they need an attractive female, because all the actual BBC members are male.
00:28:00 <ais523> Con: INTERCAL extensions such as threading and operator overloading are non-standard and poorly tested, and may therefore have broad unforeseen side effects.
00:28:02 <ais523> Pro: INTERCAL extensions such as threading and operator overloading are non-standard and poorly tested, and may therefore have broad unforeseen side effects.
00:28:04 <ais523> I love that style guide
00:28:14 <kerlo> Also, one of the BBC members is dead.
00:28:34 <ais523> kerlo: am I ehird, or am I at the BBC?
00:28:48 <ais523> I hope I'm not ehird, that would be worrying
00:28:53 <kerlo> ais523: chances are you're at the BBC.
00:28:58 <ehird> ais523: sorry you had to find out this way
00:29:00 <ehird> you're the unifier
00:29:03 <ehird> you're both me, and at the BBC
00:29:10 <ehird> it helps to keep the two realities in bind
00:29:19 <ehird> sort of, subatomic reality glue
00:29:40 <kerlo> ais523 is the female.
00:30:05 <ehird> if you measure the female over time she turns out to be indistinguishable to me at micro levels
00:30:10 <ehird> even though we are separate at the macro levels
00:30:11 <oerjan> i take it you take turns playing the Doctor?
00:30:29 <ehird> http://googleappengine.blogspot.com/2009/04/brand-new-language-on-google-app-engine.html
00:30:34 <ehird> FORTRAN 77 on app engine
00:31:10 <ehird> thanks to CADIE, ofc
00:32:07 <ais523> you have to mail them punch cards to submit the code, though
00:32:34 <ehird> "Checking the HTTP header for google.com today, you will find it’s run by “ELIZA”, “WOPR”, “IIS/3.0”, “Google Operating System (BETA)” or similar... perhaps depending on the time you’re checking"
00:32:35 <ehird> :-D
00:32:53 <ais523> that IIS is very worrying
00:33:36 <ehird> "Google’s image album software Picasa now comes with a special “Auto Red Eye” functionality for version 4.1 (it turns normal eyes into red eyes). I was only able to see this on the Picasa homepage when using a US proxy. "
00:34:06 <ais523> they added an option to google code search to search for programs in lolcode
00:34:15 <ehird> yes
00:34:18 <ehird> I already said
00:34:25 <oerjan> ais523: IIS?
00:34:32 <ais523> oerjan: Microsoft's webserver
00:34:40 <oerjan> ayeeh!
00:34:54 <ais523> losing out quite badly to Apache in terms of market share
00:36:05 -!- sebbu has joined.
00:36:46 <ehird> How did you get started as a designer of programming languages?
00:36:46 <ehird> Ken Iverson showed me APL in 1969 when I was 11.
00:36:52 <ehird> — Kx systems (K developers) ceo
00:37:25 <kerlo> Did APL invent the term "programming language"?
00:37:30 <ehird> no
00:37:58 <ais523> kerlo: that's a seriously great question
00:38:04 <ais523> I'd never even thought in those terms before
00:38:10 <ais523> it's such a pity the answer is no, actually
00:39:00 <ehird> http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/04/01/deluge_of_browser_security_issues_drives_mass_migration.html
00:39:05 <ehird> Non-lynx browsers are dead, Netcraft confirms it.
00:39:18 <ais523> netcraft did indeed confirm it
00:39:22 <ais523> but does that make it true?
00:39:29 <ehird> Just ask any Slashdot troll!
00:39:42 <ais523> also, that stuff about encoding shellcode into smileys, is it definitely known to be false?
00:39:54 <ehird> err
00:39:54 <ehird> link?
00:39:55 <ais523> after all, it could be true, although would look suspicious
00:40:08 <ais523> http://blog.cr0.org/2009/04/massive-exploitation-of-instant.html
00:40:18 <ehird> lol
00:40:18 <ais523> of course, actually getting the smileys to run would be harder
00:40:21 <ehird> obviously false
00:40:27 <ehird> http://www.cr0.org/misc/smile.rb
00:40:33 <ehird> WTF pl indeed.
00:40:41 <ehird> ais523: well, it just makes shellcode look like smilies
00:40:43 <ehird> doesn't run i
00:40:43 <ehird> t
00:41:01 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:41:23 <ais523> oh, and the resulting smilies aren't executable
00:41:32 <ais523> smiley steganography < smiley/shellcode polyglots
00:41:40 <ehird> :() {:| :&}
00:41:44 <ehird> Three smilies.
00:41:57 <ehird> :() {:| :&} ;:
00:42:02 <ehird> Three smilies and ... something.
00:42:04 <ais523> yep, that's referred to as the killer smiley sometimes
00:42:08 <ehird> :()
00:42:09 <ehird> {:|
00:42:11 <ehird> :&}
00:42:13 <ehird> ;:
00:42:15 <ehird> so beautiful.
00:42:22 <ais523> the last one's someone with glasses, winking
00:42:30 <ehird> :D
00:42:49 <kerlo> Very small glasses that are below the eyes?
00:42:49 <ehird> Erste said that while the bank is dedicated to providing an accessible online banking experience, some customers still report difficulties when trying to make HTTPS requests through Telnet without the aid of an extended keyboard layout.
00:43:03 <ais523> kerlo: "four-eyes" is a common nickname for glasses-wearers
00:43:06 <ehird> To bolster Lynx's growing footprint in the browser market, Netcraft has released the Netcraft Toolbar for Lynx. This free add-on blends in at the top of every web page, and not only protects Lynx users against phishing attacks, but the beautiful text-based rendition of the Netcraft logo is sure to brighten anyone's day.
00:43:07 <ais523> ehird: haha
00:43:11 <kerlo> Ah.
00:43:16 <ehird> http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/04/01/netcraft-toolbar-for-lynx-resized.png
00:43:26 <ais523> also, I tried using Lynx to access a bank website earlier today
00:43:29 <ais523> it worked pretty well
00:43:37 <ais523> although Lynx is so garish and hard to control, I preger w3m I think
00:43:40 <ais523> *prefer
00:43:53 <ais523> maybe the first text browser you use is the one that you stick with for life
00:44:27 <ehird> w3m is sort of "gnu lynx"
00:44:42 <ais523> well, it certainly has too many features
00:44:45 <ais523> it even has tabbed browsin
00:44:48 <ais523> *browsing
00:44:55 <ais523> which I think is hilariously funny, despite being useful
00:45:33 <ehird> the real pain is links, really — you want to click links with a mouse because they're suited for that sort of addressing
00:45:46 <ais523> that works in w2m
00:45:48 <ais523> *w3m
00:45:52 <ais523> seriously
00:45:56 <ehird> given a sufficiently bloated terminal.
00:45:58 <ais523> it uses some sort of terminal mouse-click layer
00:46:04 <ehird> does it work in urxvt? that terminal is excellent
00:46:05 <ais523> also, you have to click twice I think
00:46:16 <ehird> vim lets you move the cursor with one click
00:46:18 <ehird> with :set cursor
00:46:21 <ais523> and I don't know, I've only tried in gnome-terminal
00:46:33 <ais523> ehird: same with w3m, one click moves the cursor, the second follows the link
00:47:04 <ehird> 'moves the cursor'?
00:47:12 <ehird> oh, right, w3m lets you move around text for no reason whatsoever
00:47:22 <ais523> I find it easier than trying to use Lynx
00:47:34 <ais523> but then, I'm used to using the keyboard as a mouse
00:48:01 <ehird> i'm a pretentious mouse user
00:48:45 <ehird> pretention levels: hunt and peck keyboarder and mouser < keyboard-only hardcore 1337 h4ck3r < person who uses keyboard for typing and mouse for precise, vague and absolute addressing
00:48:49 <ehird> *pretension
00:49:19 <ais523> I mostly only use the mouse for websurfing
00:49:35 <ais523> and even then, I use w3m if I want to quickly look something up on a local html file rather than do serious surfing
00:49:40 <ais523> because it means I don't have to go to the mouse
00:49:44 <ais523> oh, I use the mouse for games too
00:50:10 <ehird> spend a week with plan 9; you can't even use up/down keys for editing (they are pgup/pgdown)
00:50:23 <ehird> just left/right, typing, and backspace (no shift-selecting, or even DEL key)
00:50:38 <ehird> it's simultaneously agonizing and enlightening
00:51:36 <Robdgreat> and elitist
00:51:50 <Robdgreat> w00t
00:51:52 <ehird> Plan 9 isn't an elitist system, just an opinionated one.
00:51:59 <ehird> A very, very, very opinionated one.
00:52:03 <Robdgreat> :]
00:52:10 <ehird> "Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's pointless
00:52:10 <ehird> to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and
00:52:11 <ehird> elitist. No novices asking stupid questions."
00:52:18 <ehird> ais523: `apt-cache show dwm` would you?
00:52:22 <Robdgreat> "I'm not opinionated, I'm just always right"
00:52:23 <ehird> I bet £50 it has a package
00:52:44 <ehird> [[maybe you should go to school and learn how to spell cuz who the fuck
00:52:44 <ehird> spells marK with a c? musta been a baby of a couple retards]]
00:52:46 <ehird> ^ lol wat
00:52:58 <Robdgreat> fail.
00:52:58 <ais523> Please notice that dwm is currently customized through editing its source code, so you probably want to build your own dwm packages. This package is compiled with the default configuration and should just give you an idea about what dwm brings to your desktop.
00:53:05 <ais523> <--- partial output from apt-cache show dwm
00:53:08 <ehird> ais523: £50 plz
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00:53:16 <ais523> ehird: I didn't accept the bet
00:53:25 <ehird> harumph
00:53:25 <Robdgreat> it was implicit, clearly
00:53:57 <Robdgreat> let the record show that ais523 tacitly accepted the bet
00:54:05 <ais523> but I didn't
00:54:10 <ais523> what language is dwm written in?
00:54:14 <ais523> I'm guessing C from the dependencies
00:54:20 <ehird> c
00:54:27 <ais523> I was wondering about somehow smalltalkifying it so that you could edit the source while it was running
00:54:29 <ehird> ais523: it's written by the suckless.org people
00:54:41 <ehird> they're a pretentious, people-hating bunch of plan 9 addicts
00:54:46 <ehird> http://dwm.suckless.org/
00:55:05 <ehird> ais523: I think if you did such a modification they'd treat it akin to a death threat and an insult on their mother
00:55:15 <ais523> is that firefox in the foreground in that screenshot?
00:55:22 <ehird> Yes.
00:55:36 <ehird> ais523: asking consistency of them is henious.
00:55:39 <ais523> ah, ok
00:55:40 <ehird> Go to your room and think about what you've done.
00:56:09 <ais523> "dwm has no Lua integration, no 9P support, no shell-based configuration, no remote control, and comes without any additional tools, such as for printing the selection or warping the mouse."
00:56:20 <ais523> I like the way that's in the feature list
00:56:31 <ehird> Yeah, they go on about that a lot: http://suckless.org/common/
00:56:59 <ais523> hmm... also, it uses mercurial as the vcs
00:57:07 <ehird> Yes.
00:57:08 <ais523> I'm disappointed, I'd expected them to use something I'd never heard of
00:57:16 <ehird> ais523: regardless of how silly they are, reading the code is nice: http://code.suckless.org/hg/dwm/file/deaa276abac1/dwm.c
00:57:23 <ehird> 1706 lines; and a lot of sane people swear by it
00:57:27 <ehird> as their WM
00:57:30 <ehird> modern-software people, that is
00:57:32 <ehird> not unix hermit
00:57:32 <ehird> s
00:58:31 <ais523> 43 /* macros */
00:58:40 <ais523> how does that fit in with their concept of using less code rather than bad code
00:58:47 <ais523> I mean, obviously that section contains macros
00:58:50 <ais523> it's full of #define
00:58:58 <ais523> that's like writing x = y + 2; /* addition */
00:59:00 <ehird> ais523: send a patch just to remove those two lines
00:59:08 <ais523> heh
00:59:11 <ehird> they'll probably accept it and hail you as a genius in the commit messag
00:59:11 <ehird> e
00:59:19 <ehird> 207 /* variables */
00:59:23 <ehird> 130 /* function declarations */
00:59:24 <ehird> 4 lines
00:59:43 <ais523> 247 /* function implementations */
00:59:47 <ehird> 5
00:59:52 <ais523> I've got it
00:59:57 <ais523> it must have been written by COBOL programmers
01:00:11 <ais523> COBOL requires you to do that, C doesn't but they've kept the habit
01:00:39 <ehird> http://incise.org/tinywm.html i still love this wm
01:00:50 <ehird> I bet I could write a humane WM in ~500 lines
01:00:59 <ais523> ehird: [01:00] <AirRaven> IRP > Should I go to York or Manchester University next year? (U.K.)- if all else fails, mudkips or coin-flips shall suffice.
01:01:08 <ais523> how long's xmonad, by the way?
01:01:11 <kerlo> ehird's hobby is pressing the last letter of his sentence and the enter key simultaneously
01:01:16 <kerlo> .
01:01:25 <ais523> kerlo: I thought it was me that did that, not ehird
01:01:31 <kerlo> It works roughly half the time/
01:01:38 <kerlo> Maybe it is./
01:01:43 <kerlo> ...I'm bad at this.
01:01:59 <ehird> going, going, →
01:03:20 <ais523> ehird: that dwm source is clearly golfed
01:03:28 <ais523> it's doing things like fitting entire loops into the head of a for loop
01:03:44 <ais523> which is always possible, but only used for golfing and showing off AFAIK
01:07:33 <kerlo> Anyway, kerlo's Canonical Programming Rule: The only good way to write a program is the best way to write the program.
01:08:18 <ais523> what's the canonical programming hello world, in your opinion?
01:08:44 <kerlo> Canonical Programming Rule, corollary 1: If you can think of multiple equally good ways of writing that beat all other ways of writing it, you need to come up with an even better way of writing it.
01:09:00 <ais523> heh
01:09:09 <kerlo> Canonical Programming Rule, corollary 2: If there are multiple best ways of writing a program, the programming language sucks.
01:09:18 <ais523> double heh
01:09:22 <kerlo> ais523: what language?
01:09:30 <ais523> the best one
01:09:31 <ais523> obviously
01:09:47 <kerlo> Okay.
01:10:08 <kerlo> PutStrLn "Hello, world!"
01:10:55 <ais523> what language is that?
01:11:00 <kerlo> A hypothetical language I've thought about since... a while ago.
01:12:36 <mmorrow> speaking of lines-of-code, i happened to graph loc for each lua version earlier http://moonpatio.com/lua/lua_loc.png
01:12:50 <ais523> [17:20:15] <@lsmith> ok .. this is quite unanimous .. even if we count Stas to be of the same opinion as dmitry
01:12:52 <kerlo> After I finish it, ask the Singularity to upload a description into your mind.
01:12:56 <kerlo> It'll take a while, you see.
01:13:18 <ais523> mmorrow: that's quite a lot for a lightweight scripting language
01:13:21 * kerlo decides that the best thing he could possibly do right now is read the Wikipedia page "Concept"
01:14:26 <mmorrow> ais523: the lua code is some of my favorite C code (wrt clarity/tidyness)
01:14:36 * kerlo has an epiphany
01:14:56 <ais523> [17:34:18] <@andrei_> hey, what about :) separator
01:15:06 <kerlo> Nice.
01:15:08 <ais523> hmm... I'm not surprised they went with \ in the end
01:15:24 <ais523> kerlo: from the actual discussion between PHP devs about what char to use for namespacing
01:16:33 <ais523> apparently they had to make a decision in a hurry because it was degenerating into an emacs vs. vim holy war
01:19:49 <kerlo> Hey, I think this also solves another of my problems.
01:20:05 <ais523> what, smileys as the PHP namespace separator?
01:21:07 <kerlo> Well, either I've forgotten which problem it solves, or I've realized that it actually doesn't solve that problem.
01:23:13 <ais523> well, what was the solution, anyway?
01:23:18 <ais523> even if it's looking for a problem
01:24:36 <kerlo> Concept splitting.
01:24:57 <kerlo> If you don't know whether an item is an instance of a category or not, split the category into two categories, one containing the item and the other not.
01:25:44 <kerlo> If you forget about one category, great: you've determined that the other category is the one worth remembering.
01:26:08 <kerlo> And now, having told you that, I have to kill you.
01:26:45 <kerlo> Or at least ask you if you'll ever write or otherwise work on an AI that isn't Friendly.
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01:27:09 <Sgeo[College]> R.I.P. CADIE.. I think
01:27:14 <Sgeo[College]> ehird: transcript of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeJ9Q40kIR0 ?
01:29:46 <oerjan> kerlo: nah, too lazy.
01:30:15 <kerlo> I was mainly asking ais523, you know.
01:30:29 <oerjan> that might be more important.
01:30:45 <ais523> kerlo: ah, aha
01:30:57 <ais523> that's how TAEB identifies items in NetHack, it's a rather limited application though
01:32:20 <Sgeo[College]> TAEB?
01:32:26 <ais523> NetHack-playing bot
01:32:39 <ais523> unrelated to #esoteric, although it's something I work on from time to time
01:32:44 <ais523> not my project, other coders are more active on it
01:32:52 <ais523> I'm just a low-level person who helps out occasionally
01:33:45 <kerlo> Really?
01:34:03 <ais523> it's not april fool's any more, and I have no reason to lie to you about that
01:35:01 <kerlo> I want proof, not because I don't believe you, but because proofs lead to understanding that mere statements do not.
01:35:25 <kerlo> Much how the string "IO ()" is much less useful than an actual Haskell program.
01:35:29 <oerjan> kerlo: don't trust him, he could be lying about his timezone
01:35:33 <ais523> kerlo: http://sartak.org/code/TAEB/
01:35:38 <ais523> oerjan: haha
01:35:51 <kerlo> Mmkay.
01:36:13 <ais523> my AI branch is at http://ais523.sartak.org/TAEB-AI-Planar/
01:37:56 <Sgeo[College]> It's not April Fools here
01:37:58 <Sgeo[College]> April Fools!
01:38:00 <Sgeo[College]> </lame>
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01:41:21 <ais523> heh, http://www.sixxs.net.ipv4.sixxs.org.sixxs.org.ipv4.sixxs.org/main/ actually works
01:42:58 <ais523> wtf, I just got first post on a Slashdot article
01:49:58 <ais523> and I wasn't trolling
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01:54:30 <kerlo> That URL makes me think of http://normish.org/ihope/root/var/www/ihope/root/home/ihope/root/var/www/
01:54:37 <ais523> heh
01:54:54 <ais523> Normish is something special, alright
01:55:32 <kerlo> Heck, a better one: http://normish.org/home/ihope/root/var/www/ihope/root/var/www/root/var/www/
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02:09:30 <Asztal_> ais523: but where's your "frost pist!" achievement? :(
02:09:49 <ais523> I hope they don't add that, it'll make things even worse
02:10:04 <Asztal_> also, http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ :)
02:11:39 <ais523> Asztal_: that code's nonportable
02:11:41 <kerlo> I want a frost pist.
02:11:55 <ais523> I wrote a fixed version, that works in both C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL
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03:11:25 <ais523> by the way, I was reading the report on voting machine security flaws that the state of Ohio commissioned
03:11:30 <ais523> some of it's really ridiculous
03:11:50 <ais523> the flaws, I mean, not the report itself
03:13:05 <ais523> they managed an all-new sort of buffer overflow I've never seen before:
03:13:07 <ais523> 287 TCHAR name;
03:13:08 <ais523> 288 _stprintf(&name, _T("\\Storage Card\\%s"), findData.cFileName);
03:13:24 <ais523> (TCHAR's like char, it's a single-character type)
03:14:55 <Asztal_> impressive
03:15:15 <ais523> that code is even worse than gets
03:15:23 <ais523> at least there are circumstances under which gets doesn't overflow...
03:15:53 <ais523> (if AnMaster were alive, he'd probably complain that _T infringes on implementation namespace or something like that...)
03:16:38 <ais523> also, it seems that that 0x0102030405060708 is accepted as the password on one type of machine they make, even if the password's been changed
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03:31:53 <oerjan> argh, the science subreddit is _still_ in AF mode
03:32:52 <Sgeo> Is CADIE dead, or is she just elsewhere? The video suggests dead, but the blog says elsewhere
03:33:25 <oerjan> http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ still works
03:35:28 * Sgeo tried to make language accept INTERCAL
03:35:33 <Sgeo> The page just refreshed
03:36:01 <ais523> yep, it's stopped working
03:36:25 <Sgeo> You mean when you put INTERCAL in?
03:36:54 <ais523> no, altogether
03:36:58 <ais523> once April 1 ended
03:37:05 <ais523> you can enter queries but don't get replies
03:38:11 * oerjan swats ais523 -----###
03:38:20 <ais523> ow!
03:38:21 <ais523> why?
03:38:26 <oerjan> works fine for me
03:40:29 <ais523> ah yes, working again
03:40:38 <ais523> with yet another typically INTERCAL-related response
03:41:13 <bsmntbombdood>
03:41:15 <bsmntbombdood> oops
03:41:25 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: how succinct
03:43:09 <MizardX> Heh. Tried to add an Intercal-choice in the combo-box, but when I pressed "Ask CADIE", the page just refreshed and the form was reset.
03:44:24 <bsmntbombdood> MizardX's nick reminds me of something else
03:44:47 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood, it reminds me of some Runescape quest
03:44:51 <bsmntbombdood> oh, who was that girl who hung out in here?
03:44:59 <bsmntbombdood> liked manga, slept like 2 hours per night
03:45:06 <oerjan> razorX, aka sukoshi
03:45:29 <bsmntbombdood> ah, yes
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04:11:14 <Sgeo> http://ytmnd.com/april/hehe_mix.swf
04:13:48 <kerlo> Proof that materials don't mean anything: there are stone glasses, and there are glass stones.
04:13:55 <kerlo> Though both are pretty weird.
04:15:26 <kerlo> I mean, you *could* make glasses out of stone.
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04:45:37 <lament> there're also marble stones and stone marbles, which is a little less obvious than it sounds at first
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04:49:09 <bsmntbombdood> d
04:49:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has set topic: topic ain't done changed since 2009-04-01 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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08:42:18 <ais523> gah, Google took down their INTERCAL style guide
08:42:36 <ais523> also, the Google cache of it isn't showing, nor is the Yahoo cache, but I saved a copy from the live.com cache, of all places
08:42:45 <ais523> first time ever that live.com has been remotely useful
08:43:20 <ais523> I had the CADIE source already, luckily
08:52:35 <AnMaster> ais523, your ick repo should be up again
08:52:41 <ais523> ah, thanks
08:52:47 <ais523> I'll push right away
08:53:21 <ais523> and pushed
08:53:32 <ais523> how are your download logs for C-INTERCAL?
08:53:41 <ais523> if it's inconvenient to get at them, don't worry
08:53:53 <ais523> I'm just mildly curious as to how popular it is
08:55:31 <AnMaster> a sec
08:56:06 <AnMaster> first: almost all from http://ipv4gate.sixxs.net
08:56:15 <ais523> not at all surprising
08:57:01 <AnMaster> then there is me, and one other persomn
08:57:03 <AnMaster> person*
08:57:09 <AnMaster> with other ipv6 ips
08:57:14 <ais523> how many accesses altogether?
08:57:29 <AnMaster> /usr/www/data/log $ wc -l thttpd_log
08:57:30 <AnMaster> 22 thttpd_log
08:57:51 <ais523> not bad for just a few hours after release
08:57:55 <AnMaster> but most are for favicon.ico
08:57:56 <AnMaster> ..
08:58:02 <ais523> heh
08:58:02 <AnMaster> (which is 404)
08:58:12 <ais523> the old MSIE 404 favicon.ico bug strikes again
08:58:16 <AnMaster> $ grep ick thttpd_log | wc -l
08:58:16 <AnMaster> 2
08:58:17 <ais523> I think it's been fixed nowadays
08:58:21 <AnMaster> ais523, ?
08:58:34 <AnMaster> what 404 bug?
08:58:43 <ais523> AnMaster: in older versions of IE, if favicon.ico's a 404, it ends up pinging it every time you access a page on the website
08:59:30 <AnMaster> both ick downloads are from that other person with native ipv6 btw
08:59:36 <ais523> ah, aha
08:59:36 <AnMaster> (or tunnel, I don't know)
08:59:39 <ais523> I wonder who it was?
09:00:32 * AnMaster looks in whois (which is usually quite correct for ipv6 IME)
09:00:45 <AnMaster> organisation: ORG-OB3-RIPE
09:00:45 <AnMaster> org-name: LeaseWeb B.V.
09:01:06 <ais523> hmm... not all that useful
09:01:14 <ais523> although knowing RIPE narrows it down to one continent
09:01:39 <AnMaster> the contact addresses are both in Amsterdam
09:01:51 <ais523> probably Joris, then
09:02:03 <fizzie> Your logs should now have another native-IPv6 entry.
09:02:15 <ais523> only Dutch INTERCALer I know, and he's pretty active in terms of submitting patches
09:02:54 <fizzie> 2607:f0d0:3001:36::dead:baba, a rather curious address.
09:03:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, not my choice *shrug*
09:03:08 <ais523> fizzie: is that yours?
09:03:22 <ais523> or are you somehow reading AnMaster's logs?
09:03:22 <fizzie> ais523: No, it's that lepton.kuonet-ng.org.
09:03:26 <AnMaster> ais523, it is that of the vps. The person who runs it was a joker.
09:03:26 <ais523> oh
09:03:31 <AnMaster> I presume
09:03:41 <AnMaster> anyway
09:04:05 <fizzie> My hit in the logs should be from 2001:1bc8:102:587b:21d:7dff:fee4:a593 I presume.
09:04:33 * ais523 wonders if anyone has memorized their own IPv6 address
09:04:45 <ais523> the proxy I used to use at the University was 147.188.147.123
09:04:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, no I don't have another native one?
09:04:57 <ais523> but nowadays I normally use wireless, so I show up elsewhere
09:05:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, I had a new one from that one in Amsterdam though
09:05:05 <AnMaster> huh
09:05:23 <AnMaster> wait no
09:05:26 <AnMaster> I misread
09:07:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember mine. It is ::1
09:07:16 <AnMaster> ;P
09:07:27 <AnMaster> (no I don't remember my full one)
09:09:05 <fizzie> A /64 prefix is relatively easy to remember, so if you put something at prefix::1, that's not too bad either. I used to remember my 6bone prefix. I don't remember this current one, though.
09:09:46 <ais523> it's somewhat interesting that IPv6 was initially only used to create long hostmasks that spelt out words on IRC
09:11:06 <AnMaster> it's odd that SixXS handed out a /48 when you requested a subnet. Presumably it is related to making routing simpler?
09:11:21 <ais523> yep, pretty much
09:11:39 <ais523> using lots of subnets of the same size makes routing tables smaller and simpler
09:11:53 <AnMaster> heh
09:11:58 <fizzie> Yes, and they give you a /48 so that you can do some subnetting of your own.
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09:12:04 <ais523> also, a /48 is amazingly large
09:12:11 <ais523> a /64 would be the usual size for IPv6
09:12:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't you subnet at /96 or such?
09:12:19 <ais523> anything smaller than that annoys the routers
09:12:24 <fizzie> You can't really make smaller nets than /64.
09:12:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, why?
09:12:35 <ais523> so if you want to subnet something, it should be bigger than /64
09:12:43 <fizzie> The address format specifies that the last 64 bits is the node ID.
09:12:47 <AnMaster> ah
09:13:03 <fizzie> And all those stateless-autoconfig things generate EUI-64 format addresses, too, which need a 64-bit network.
09:13:13 <AnMaster> mhm
09:13:19 <fizzie> I've seen a tunnel provider handing out /60s, though, which means you have 16 subnets to play with.
09:13:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh
09:14:08 <fizzie> And if you configure things manually, at least Linux is completely happy to use smaller-than-/64-networks, it's just not pedantically-speaking correct.
09:14:11 <AnMaster> for a /48 you would have 65536 subnets right?
09:14:23 <fizzie> Yes.
09:14:26 <ais523> yep
09:14:28 <AnMaster> assuming 2 16^p is the correct way to calculate it
09:14:45 <ais523> well, probably 65534 in practice
09:14:50 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
09:14:52 <ais523> because IIRC max and min addresses have special meanings
09:14:54 <AnMaster> ah
09:14:55 <ais523> or is that only IPv4?
09:15:00 <AnMaster> no idea
09:15:25 <fizzie> It's max and min addresses in a network, you can still use things like 192.168.0.5, even though there's that 0 byte in there.
09:15:59 <ais523> well, yes
09:16:20 <ais523> but would 192.168.0.0 be the min address of 129.168.0.0/16 or 129.1268.0.0/24?
09:16:23 <fizzie> So you can just as well use the 2001:1234:1234:0::/64 subnet.
09:16:31 <ais523> *129.168.0.0/24
09:17:00 <fizzie> Obviously it's the min address of both, and it depends on configured netmasks and such what it means.
09:17:28 <AnMaster> what does the min address mean then?
09:17:37 <AnMaster> max is multicast or something isn't it?
09:17:46 <fizzie> It's traditionally "the address of the network, not a host in it".
09:17:54 <fizzie> While all-bits-one is the broadcast address, yes.
09:18:01 <AnMaster> ah
09:18:15 <ais523> in theory, sending a packet to 255.255.255.255 sends it to the entire Internet
09:18:19 <AnMaster> what about multicast then? Isn't that "broadcast, to some hosts"
09:18:21 <ais523> in practice, any sane router will drop it
09:18:29 <fizzie> Multicast uses a separate range of addresses.
09:18:35 <fizzie> To identify multicast groups.
09:18:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, mhm and how do you mark such groups?
09:19:11 <fizzie> What do you mean, exactly?
09:19:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, no idea. I hate networking
09:19:27 <AnMaster> ;P
09:19:55 <AnMaster> "<fizzie> To identify multicast groups." <-- well, how do you identify if a computer is in a group or not
09:20:10 <fizzie> There's the IGMP protocol for that.
09:20:16 <fizzie> Does group-registration and such.
09:20:19 <AnMaster> IGMP or ICMP?
09:20:22 <fizzie> IGMP.
09:20:24 <AnMaster> mhm
09:21:54 <fizzie> Although in IPv6 the multicast stuff has been taken in ICMPv6. As was ARP.
09:22:30 <fizzie> All IPv6 multicast addresses are in the ff00::/8 block, while the IPv4 range goes from 224.0.0.0-239.255.255.255.
09:23:03 <fizzie> I guess that's 224.0.0.0/4 if I count the bits right.
09:23:10 <AnMaster> mhm
09:23:44 <AnMaster> fe80:: is "link local" or something like that right? But what is the use of it?
09:25:04 <fizzie> Well, for link-local purposes. Like router-discovery and such, I think those tend to use the link-local addresses at some point.
09:25:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, this ipv6 over facebook thing hm... the page *is* still there http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=59502659200 ...
09:25:42 <ais523> well, naturally
09:25:49 <fizzie> Sure, and if the statistics are correct, the app has been there for a while.
09:25:54 <ais523> it's one of those April Fool's RFCs which probably actually works, just is insane
09:25:56 <AnMaster> heh
09:26:01 <ais523> fizzie: they were testing it before releasing the RFCs
09:26:03 <AnMaster> interesting
09:26:26 <fizzie> There's also the fec0::/10 prefix for "site-local" v6 addresses, presumably for rather similar use than the current private-use non-routable IPv4 addresses.
09:27:12 <AnMaster> hm
09:27:24 <AnMaster> http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=59502659200&topic=6840 <--- ?
09:28:06 <AnMaster> bbl
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11:50:11 <AnMaster> back
13:27:10 <AnMaster> btw wikipedia lists http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5513 too as a joke rfc this year (yes it lists the facebook one too)
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16:41:17 <ehird> anyone know an ipv6 isp in uk?
16:44:23 <fizzie> http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=native&country=gb
16:44:56 <ehird> Bogons or Goscomb!
16:44:58 <ehird> Great names.
16:45:50 * oerjan expects the spanish vogons
16:46:05 <fizzie> I have no idea how comprehensive or accurate that list is; I know one (1) ISP in Finland who does native IPv6 to customers, and that's Nebula, and coincidentally it's also the only thing listed under the Finnish flag there.
16:46:36 <ehird> fizzie: and you're on nebula?
16:46:41 <fizzie> Well, yes.
16:47:03 <ehird> anyway, these uk isps seem very, very obscure
16:47:05 <fizzie> Nebula were polite enough to point the reverse-DNS zone for the /64 they've assigned to me to any DNS server I wanted; that's some good service. The network in the student apartments of my university also does native IPv6, but there are no reverse-DNS entries there.
16:47:10 <ehird> How many IP addresses?
16:47:10 <ehird> Normally a company would received 1208925819614629174706176 addresses to cover up to 65536 sites.
16:47:14 <ehird> that's rather gung-ho
16:47:35 <ehird> fizzie: nice; Orange are in the business of assraping their customers with restrictions
16:48:02 <ehird> thing that irritates me:
16:48:08 <ehird> calling hosting services isps
16:48:11 <ehird> yes, it's technically correct
16:48:13 <oerjan> no norway :/
16:48:14 <ehird> no it is not helpful!
16:48:36 <ehird> Broadband services from Andrews & Arnold Ltd are aimed at the technical and professional customer. We cater for home users right up to large corporate users. Most of our customers are reasonably technical or purchase via an IT consultant/dealer. The services we offer are not the fast food of broadband - we have a range of specialist options including blocks of IP addresses at no extra cost, reverse DNS delegation, IPv6 services, bonded lines with fast fa
16:48:38 <ehird> llback, and much more. We also pride ourselves in having technically competent support staff based in our UK offices.
16:48:41 <ehird> yarr, this sounds hot
16:48:44 <oerjan> which is strange since norway was listed in a wp article as having among the top relative penetrators
16:48:57 <ehird> Our Professional service starts from as little as £20.50 pcm† (£17.83+VAT) including 2GB peak download allowance, so can easily be used by more demanding home users. Professional customers can pick a tariff that matches their needs. The professional service includes a free ADSL2+ ethernet router, fixed IP address blocks, IPv6, a UK domain, web space, and IMAP email (with spam and virus checking).
16:49:01 <ehird> hrm
16:49:06 <ehird> well 2gb download allowance is shite
16:49:11 <ehird> and I don't need the domain/webspace/email
16:49:23 <ehird> Our broadband services are provided using ADSL2+ were possible which allows up to 24Mb/s downlink and up to around 1Mb/s uplink. When not possible we provide using ADSL1 which allows up to 8.128Mb/s downlink and up to 448Kb/s uplink (832Kb/s with the premium option). These speeds are the maximum line rate and depend on the line legth and quality. The availability checker can give an indication of likely downlink speed. We upgrade ADSL1 lines to ADSL2+ wh
16:49:25 <ehird> en possible as part of the 21st Century Network upgrade. Details
16:49:27 <ehird> k, that's fine
16:49:40 <ehird> okay, so if only there wasn't a 2gb download allowance that'd be awesome
16:49:56 <ehird> Peak period download per month.
16:49:56 <ehird> Peak period is 9am-6pm Mon-Fri.
16:49:57 <ehird> wut
16:50:01 <ehird> Off Peak allowance100GB
16:50:01 <ehird> +100GB steps
16:50:04 <ehird> well that's stupid
16:50:14 <ehird> so 9am-6pm i'm only allowed to d/l 2gb.
16:50:19 <ehird> wonderful
16:50:24 <ehird> All other times except night (2am-6am) which is unmetered.
16:50:27 <ehird> this is kind of fucked up
16:50:55 <ehird> i mean, it has everything, i just wish it didn't have the stupid bw limit
16:51:37 <ehird> "A byte is 8 bits of data which is normally one character. A gigabyte or GB is 1,000,000,000 bytes (not to be confused with a Gibibyte or GiB which is 1,073,741,824 bytes)"
16:51:43 <ehird> you're full of shit, andrews & arnold.
16:51:58 <Slereah> Well, technically, it's correct
16:52:04 <Slereah> It's just that no one uses gibi
16:52:12 <ehird> it's a ripoff :P
16:52:35 <fizzie> Gibibibibii! Sounds like a pokey-mon or something.
16:52:47 <ehird> but seriously they give you a decent router and ipv6 and whatnot and the speed looks great
16:52:50 <oerjan> with a terrifying gibibite
16:52:56 <ehird> but 2gb peak allowance?
16:53:03 <ehird> that's like... giving you a rocket and telling you to only fly at 3mph
16:53:23 <Slereah> oerjan : :D
16:53:26 <ehird> http://www.bogons.net/
16:53:35 <ehird> I SHALL LOOK UP THE "BOGONS"
16:53:41 <oerjan> i suspect pokemons don't bite though, would not be family friendly
16:54:21 <Slereah> Some do, I think
16:54:26 <ehird> oerjan: err, they knock each other out and seriously injure them with massive electric attacks and shit
16:54:29 <ehird> I think biting is pretty tame
16:54:33 <Slereah> But it's been... ten years since I played
16:54:38 <Slereah> So I may be wrong
16:54:40 <ehird> oh you mean the game
16:54:41 <ehird> well yea
16:54:45 <ehird> some have a bite attack
16:54:49 <ehird> I was talking about the shitty show
16:54:51 <ehird> "* Static IP address if required "
16:54:53 <ehird> <3
16:55:07 <ehird> "* Multicast and/or IPv6 routing over ADSL "
16:55:08 <ehird> <3
16:55:14 <ehird> "* No enforced transfer cap (subject to reasonable usage) "
16:55:17 * ehird netgasm
16:55:20 <Slereah> I seem to recall biting in the movie
16:55:35 <ehird> ok, bogons sounds fuckin' awesome
16:55:45 <ehird> £35/mo
16:56:11 <oerjan> ehird: just beware of the clause where they reserve the right to blow up the earth for their information superhighway
16:56:19 <ehird> http://www.enta.net/Customer_Products/Data_&_Connectivity_Products/Broadband/ ← yawn, no thx
16:57:09 <ehird> Do you restrict access to any Bit torrents/news sites?
16:57:10 <ehird> IDNet do not restrict access to any sites or ports etc.
16:57:23 <ehird> the fact that they explicitly state that is nice
16:57:40 <ehird> I might email the v^Hbogons to ask if they filterz
16:58:36 <ehird> hokay, so it's
16:58:40 <ehird> idnet home supermax http://www.idnet.net/solutions/home/broadband/
16:58:49 <ehird> vs bogons adsl http://www.bogons.net/
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16:59:50 <ehird> random opinions welcome, I'd like to escape this shithole of an esp
16:59:51 <ehird> isp
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17:43:55 <ehird> http://redsnake.me/
17:52:38 <ehird> Bogons vs idnet is looking good right now.
18:04:15 <ehird> <!--> <font size="-2">Did you know that <b>your Browser is <em>buggy</em></b>: it can't parse comments correctly.</font> -->
18:04:17 * ehird rolleyes
18:37:04 <Asztal_> <!-- -- --->ERROR<!- ------ >
18:37:49 <Asztal_> SGML comments are weird.
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18:39:16 <Asztal_> the ERROR part may actually be commented, depending on whether or not you live in 1999 or 2005 or elsewhen
18:48:46 <ehird> PRETEND TO SWIM WHY DON'T YOU JIM
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20:31:09 <ehird> wow
20:31:11 <ehird> I think I just solved syntax.
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20:42:16 <kerlo> The syntax of what?
20:42:47 <ehird> syntax.
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21:10:03 <nooga> much
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21:45:29 <nooga> croc
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22:20:16 <ehird> fizzie: Mr ip wizard, "/29 or /30" will mean ipv4 rite?
22:21:04 <fizzie> Most likely, yes. Those are pretty small blocks.
22:21:31 <ehird> Yar. I'm deciding between http://bogons.net/ and http://idnet.net/, both of which look more or less perfect.
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22:22:10 <fizzie> Especially since generally the all-bits-0 and all-bits-1 nodes are kept as the network address and the broadcast address, respectively, so a /30 would have just two usable addresses.
22:22:17 <ehird> :-D
22:22:56 <ehird> (Enta) IPStream Max (up to 8M)100kbps448kbps£60.00£35.00
22:23:03 <ehird> That 100kbps second is the download spede column.
22:23:07 <ehird> Yet it says up to 8M?
22:23:07 <ehird> wut
22:23:51 <fizzie> I think our student housing network had a costs-a-bit add-on service to get your own non-DHCP-allocated /29 (so six hosts) block.
22:24:19 <Deewiant> Well, they do have a /16 of their own.
22:24:35 <ehird> Bogons give you a static ipv6 address with yer own reverse dns so that's just fiiine by m
22:24:35 <ehird> e
22:24:37 <Deewiant> (Assuming you're referring to TKY.)
22:24:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: You mean TKY? The old Trinet block at least was just a /20.
22:24:52 <ehird> tky?
22:25:13 <fizzie> I don't really know about the new one. TKK has a /16 block of its own.
22:25:38 <fizzie> ehird: The student union. Acronym of the finnish name.
22:25:40 <ehird> I got a personal reply from Bogons with techy details, which was nice. Delivered via RT too.
22:25:43 <Deewiant> 82.130.0.0/18
22:25:46 <Deewiant> Evidently.
22:25:55 <Deewiant> I misremembered then.
22:26:16 <fizzie> I had a map somewhere...
22:26:22 <ehird> say, about that dead:baba ipv6 address - is there liek a service to get a custom one you specify or sth?
22:26:24 <ehird> like license plates
22:26:42 <fizzie> If you have your own network, you can number the nodes any way you like.
22:27:04 <ehird> Oh.
22:27:06 <ehird> Of course.
22:27:18 <fizzie> Although the stateless autoconfig stuff uses automatically generated addresses that are <first 3 bytes of Ethernet MAC>-ff:fe-<last 3 bytes of MAC>.
22:27:23 <ehird> The good ol' I Have Gratuitous Amounts Of Money option.
22:28:03 <ehird> Question.
22:28:09 <ehird> Why don't OSes come with a dns resolver?
22:28:14 <ehird> I don't see why it's done remotely.
22:29:09 <fizzie> Might be to cut down traffic a bit, so that just the ISP's ns has to wonder where google.com is.
22:30:05 <ehird> fizzie: Well, sure, but it seems like it'd be much, much faster.
22:30:21 <ehird> I doubt it'd be hard to handle the traffic considering how powerful networks are nowadays
22:30:41 <fizzie> The root servers would have a lot more work to do; I think they have quite a lot as-it-is.
22:30:53 * ehird installs djbdns.
22:31:05 <ehird> fizzie: i wonder what the root servers run on
22:31:10 <ehird> probably a mega-optimized bsd
22:31:21 <fizzie> Not sure about speeds, either, since now you can just ask a very nearby server, and it probably knows the answers already, since everyone else's asking about the same things; you don't have to start from the root.
22:31:35 <ehird> fizzie: after using it a while it should be a lot faster, no?
22:31:41 <ehird> since cache retrieval would be instant
22:32:11 <fizzie> Well, yes, caching would be a good idea. I have my local BIND configured so that it forwards all queries to the ISP's server if it doesn't know the answer offhand.
22:32:19 <ehird> http://www.root-servers.org/ Poor greenland.
22:32:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, I foundeded the (IPv4) map: http://zem.fi/trinet/trinetmap.html
22:32:29 <Deewiant> It's already fairly instant
22:32:49 <Deewiant> dig reports around 7 milliseconds on average
22:33:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: :-)
22:33:32 <Deewiant> Lot of addresses for those houses
22:33:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: That might be obsoleted already a bit, since I did that back when they updated the network. They might have changed stuff.
22:33:48 <ehird> "2. As root, create UNIX accounts named Gdnscache and Gdnslog. "
22:33:54 <ehird> oh fuck, time for djb to lecture me about how to run a fuckin' unix system
22:33:58 <ehird> fuck you.
22:34:34 * ehird tries to use local djbdns
22:34:59 <ehird> Hmm, root lookups are quite slow aren't they?
22:35:03 <ehird> As in 30 seconds and still going.
22:35:21 <ehird> oh, timeout.
22:35:26 <ehird> Guess I fucked up.
22:35:35 <fizzie> Dnsmasq is probably the cheapest choice if you want a caching-only local DNS thing. (Although it comes integrated with a DHCP server, which might be pretty useless.)
22:36:10 <fizzie> I think I've seen dnsmasq used in some of those Linux-based routery devices too.
22:36:12 <ehird> "8. Set up a public web page saying that your DNS cache is powered by djbdns, so that a Google search for powered djbdns will find your page in a few months. These public statements will encourage other people to deploy djbdns, provide djbdns support services, and develop djbdns-related tools. Please also consider making a donation to the Bernstein Writing Fund."
22:36:18 <ehird> Go fuck yourself, bernstein
22:36:34 <Deewiant> What's wrong with asking people to help?
22:36:43 <Deewiant> You're awfully hostile
22:36:49 <ehird> Deewiant: I just like insulting Bernstein because he's pretentious
22:36:57 <Deewiant> Oh
22:37:10 <ehird> "To install djbdns, ..." GO TO HELL BERNSTEIN
22:37:14 <ehird> :D
22:38:07 <Deewiant> Give me an obscure domain to lookup, I want something that takes longer than 5ms
22:38:17 <ehird> hotgoatporn.com
22:38:23 <Deewiant> 10 msec
22:38:24 <ehird> Deewiant: eso-std.org.
22:38:31 <Deewiant> Oo, 160 msec
22:38:37 <ehird> That's domain squatters for you
22:38:40 <Deewiant> And now it's cached :-/
22:38:43 <ehird> Deewiant: agoranomic.org
22:38:54 <Deewiant> 157
22:38:56 <ehird> ellipsis.cx
22:39:00 <Deewiant> I wonder if anything breaks 200
22:39:06 <Deewiant> 170
22:39:12 <ehird> Erm.
22:39:17 <ehird> Deewiant: gnaa.us
22:39:22 <Deewiant> esolangs.org was 207
22:39:32 <Deewiant> Ooh, that one was 330
22:39:42 <ehird> Are you gay? Are you a nigger? etc.
22:40:14 <Deewiant> 2ch.org wins for now: 362
22:40:38 <ehird> Deewiant: what about 2ch.net
22:40:44 <Deewiant> 203
22:40:44 <ehird> in japan everything is slow.
22:40:56 <Deewiant> Well, it's far away, mostly.
22:41:05 <Deewiant> I'm trying to think of something .cn and failing
22:41:12 <Deewiant> foo.cn: 748
22:41:13 <ehird> propaganda.cn
22:41:16 <ehird> Wow
22:41:20 <ehird> Almost a second
22:41:26 <Deewiant> propaganda.cn: 613
22:41:55 <Deewiant> Is India slower or faster, I wonder
22:42:05 <Deewiant> I don't even know its TLD
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22:42:15 <Deewiant> .in?
22:42:30 <ehird> .in
22:42:37 <Deewiant> google.in took 200
22:42:47 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
22:42:58 <Deewiant> foo.in was below 100, bar.in got no answer and took 850
22:43:04 <fizzie> If you're curious, you can often "dig @server -c ch -t txt version.bind" to find out what a DNS server's running; often even if it's not BIND. Although a lot of people do disable that feature, too.
22:43:08 <Deewiant> baz.in exists though
22:43:29 <Deewiant> version.bind.0CHTXT"This space intentionally left blank"
22:43:49 <Deewiant> Ooh, what's this
22:43:50 <Deewiant> version.bind.0CHTXT"NSD 2.3.7"
22:43:59 <Deewiant> That's the K root server
22:44:14 <Deewiant> Hadn't heard of that one
22:44:39 <ehird> % sudo svstat /opt/local/var/svscan/service/dnscache
22:44:39 <ehird> /opt/local/var/svscan/service/dnscache: up (pid 97416) 15 seconds
22:44:41 <Deewiant> J runs VGRS4
22:44:41 <ehird> yay
22:44:49 <ehird> Deewiant: Any root servers running djbdns?
22:44:53 <ehird> Guess not
22:44:58 <Deewiant> "contact info@netnod.se"
22:45:08 <Deewiant> Maybe one of these sneaky ones :-P
22:45:17 <ehird> they're so ashamed
22:45:30 <ehird> % dnsq a www.aol.com 127.0.0.1
22:45:33 <ehird> Let's see if it works this time
22:45:45 <ehird> Dayum this is slow.
22:45:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
22:46:04 <ehird> ok, it doesn't seem to be _doing_ anything
22:46:41 <ehird> ' and if your DHCP client cannot be configured to discard external DNS cache information'
22:46:43 <ehird> Hm.
22:46:45 <Deewiant> Most appear to run bind (9.2 through 9.4), two NSD (2.3.7 and 3.0.5), one VGRS4
22:47:20 <Deewiant> One blank, one times out for that request, one with that email address, one "intentionally left blank"
22:47:26 <ehird> 1 www.aol.com:
22:47:26 <ehird> timed out
22:47:27 <ehird> Dammit
22:48:53 <fizzie> I wouldn't be too surprised if djbdns came with the version info disabled by default.
22:49:25 <ehird> How irritating, I wonder how to ix this
22:50:31 <fizzie> It's a funny query; the "-c ch" means dns record class Chaos, for Chaosnet; normally just about any request is for class IN (Internet).
22:51:22 <ehird> fizzie: what's a funny query?
22:51:31 <fizzie> The version.bind. one.
22:51:39 <ehird> ah.
22:52:18 <fizzie> After all, they can't really use an Internet DNS name of "version.bind", I'm sure we'll end up with a .bind TLD sooner or later. Using a Chaosnet name is rather cleverness.
22:53:33 <ehird> How did you set up your local bind, fizzie?
22:53:40 <ehird> Wanna figure out what I did wrong.
22:55:20 <fizzie> Well, mostly I just have: acl "local" { local; networks; here; }; ... options { ... listen-on { all; private; IPv4; addrs; }; allow-query { "local"; } recursion yes; forwarders { isp's; dns; server; ips; }; ... }; -- and that's about it.
22:55:32 <ehird> fizzie: I didn't mean how you set up the bind in particular
22:55:37 <ehird> I meant how did you then test it
22:55:44 <ehird> Because I'm just getting timeouts
22:56:33 <fizzie> Can you do something like "dig @ns.google.com a google.com" and get results on the box you're running the name server on?
22:56:53 <fizzie> If not, it might be that your friendly ISP is filtering outgoing DNS that's not directed to their nameserver. :p
22:57:19 <ehird> That works.
22:57:28 <ehird> So my ISP is sane in that respect.
22:57:42 <ehird> Then % dig @127.0.0.1 a google.com... and... silence.
22:57:52 <ehird> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
22:58:12 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you setting up a local bind?
22:58:19 <ehird> AnMaster: a local djbdns.
22:58:21 <ehird> and because I want to.
22:58:25 <AnMaster> oh?
22:58:32 <AnMaster> You said "too much work" and such before
22:58:35 <ehird> Yes, it is.
22:58:41 <ehird> I do things that require too much work when I am bored.
22:58:45 <AnMaster> ah
22:58:54 <AnMaster> ehird, djbdns as forwarding?
22:58:56 <AnMaster> err ok
22:58:57 <fizzie> That's rather strange. Maybe you could "netstat -nlp" or something to check whether your djbdns is actually listening?
22:59:04 <ehird> AnMaster: djbdns's dnscache server
22:59:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I would use dnsmasq for that. Or bind.
22:59:20 <ehird> fizzie: what would the protocol name be?
22:59:24 <ehird> AnMaster: what's wrong with using dnscache?
22:59:28 <AnMaster> djbdns for authoritative ones
22:59:30 <fizzie> UDP, port 53.
22:59:37 <AnMaster> ehird, probably nothing
22:59:59 <ehird> fizzie: er, can you tell I've never used netstat?
23:00:02 <AnMaster> just dnsmasq almost works out of box (read through a config and edit an option or two, start daemon
23:00:05 <AnMaster> )
23:00:06 <fizzie> The /etc/services name here is "domain".
23:00:22 <fizzie> ehird: Of course if this is OS X netstat, it'll have a different syntax.
23:00:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> fizzie: er, can you tell I've never used netstat? <-- :D
23:00:29 <ehird> fizzie: Seems so.
23:00:31 <AnMaster> well
23:00:34 <ehird> Usage:netstat [-AaLlnW] [-f address_family | -p protocol]
23:00:34 <ehird> netstat [-gilns] [-f address_family]
23:00:36 <AnMaster> sockstat on *bsd
23:00:41 <AnMaster> tends to be more useful
23:00:43 <ehird> Well, I don't see why that wouldn't work.
23:00:48 <ehird> I could just nmap myself. :-D
23:00:51 <AnMaster> ehird, sockstat -4ln
23:00:54 <AnMaster> or something
23:00:54 <AnMaster> mabe
23:00:56 <AnMaster> maybe*
23:00:59 <AnMaster> worth trying
23:01:00 <fizzie> Everyone's netstat seems to be rather different. Just "netstat -nl" is probably enough.
23:01:02 <ehird> no command, AnMaster
23:01:19 <ehird> Discovered open port 53/tcp on 127.0.0.1
23:01:21 <ehird> — nmap
23:01:24 <ehird> PORT STATE SERVICE
23:01:24 <ehird> 53/tcp open domain
23:01:31 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? It is bshish though, so I thought it would make sense on OS X
23:01:32 <fizzie> The "-nlp" was for Linux's netstat, for which "-p" means "show PID and program name for whatever's there".
23:02:03 * ehird does -sV
23:02:21 <fizzie> Anyway, that sure sounds like it's listening; strange that it doesn't want to talk to you. Maybe start it with enough debugging and verbosity flags, then.
23:02:56 <ehird> Initiating Service scan at 23:02
23:02:56 <ehird> Scanning 2 services on localhost (127.0.0.1)
23:02:57 <ehird> Lah lah lah.
23:03:15 <ehird> fizzie: Maybe it's talking to me but it can't find anything.
23:04:03 <fizzie> Well, that's possible, of course. Although since you do DNS queries yourself, I see no reason why dnscache couldn't.
23:04:22 <ehird> Stats: 0:01:02 elapsed; 0 hosts completed (1 up), 1 undergoing Service Scan
23:04:22 <ehird> Service scan Timing: About 50.00% done; ETC: 23:03 (0:00:11 remaining)
23:04:25 <ehird> Something is horribly wrong here.
23:04:36 <ehird> PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION
23:04:37 <ehird> 53/tcp open domain?
23:04:39 <ehird> Iiiinteresting.
23:04:41 <ehird> It's antisocial.
23:05:05 <ehird> % telnet 127.0.0.1 53
23:05:05 <ehird> Trying 127.0.0.1...
23:05:06 <ehird> Connected to localhost.
23:05:08 <ehird> Escape character is '^]'.
23:05:10 <ehird> hello how are you
23:05:17 <ehird> I might need to learn dns.
23:05:33 <ehird> I'm sure 'look up google.com' can't be hard.
23:05:41 <ehird> Oh wait.
23:05:43 <ehird> telnet is tcp.
23:05:46 <ehird> Durr.
23:05:51 <fizzie> Well, you can talk DNS over TCP too.
23:05:54 <ehird> True.
23:05:58 <ehird> Well, no I can't :-)
23:06:01 <fizzie> Normally it's done only for zone transfers, though.
23:06:17 <fizzie> I wonder if they're still doing that DNS-based DDOSing that's been very popular lately. At least my DROP rule for that has seen 298K packets since I last reloaded the iptables rules.
23:07:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, zone transfers in djbdns are different iirc
23:07:35 <AnMaster> djb made it after all
23:07:48 <fizzie> Yes, I seem to recall too that it did something different.
23:07:53 <AnMaster> rsync iirc
23:07:58 <AnMaster> or maybe not
23:08:33 <ehird> Anyone know how to speak DNS?
23:08:51 <fizzie> It's a rather binary protocol, not too comfortable to speak manually.
23:09:13 <ehird> D'aw.
23:12:03 <ehird> Well, I can connect.
23:12:05 <ehird> Which is imporatnt.
23:12:07 <ehird> important
23:12:22 <fizzie> With a normal program you could just run it with some sort of "don't daemonize, absurdly verbose output" command line options to see what's happening, but I have no idea how to do something like that to dnscache.
23:13:03 <ehird> It uses djb's wacky daemon runner thing.
23:13:21 <fizzie> Yes. Well, there should be some sort of log file. Wanna bet it's empty?
23:14:05 <ehird> It just says it started up.
23:14:09 <ehird> Which I gathered.
23:14:30 <ehird> Ooh!
23:14:36 <ehird> % cat current
23:14:36 <ehird> @4000000049d531bd380b501c starting
23:14:37 <ehird> @4000000049d535b439b2b2d4 tcpopen 00000000000000000000ffff7f000001:cd55
23:14:39 <ehird> @4000000049d535b439c3b64c tcpclose 00000000000000000000ffff7f000001:cd55 connection reset
23:14:43 <ehird> djbdns, you doofus.
23:14:46 <ehird> I don't have ipv6.
23:15:08 * ehird checks dnscache/root/servers/@
23:15:14 <fizzie> That looks like a ipv6-mapped ipv4-address, though; ::ffff:127.0.0.1, to be exact.
23:15:14 <ehird> Hmm, it's just ipv4 addresses
23:15:19 <AnMaster> 00000000000000000000ffff7f000001?
23:15:32 <ehird> fizzie: Oh.
23:15:33 <AnMaster> ah yes
23:15:40 <ehird> Right, it's just me.
23:15:42 <ehird> Over telnet.
23:15:54 <AnMaster> ehird, @4000000049d535b439b2b2d4 is a timestamp
23:15:55 <ehird> Okay, so we're having TCP acknowledgment.
23:15:57 <AnMaster> no clue about format
23:16:10 <ehird> Can you make dig, uh,
23:16:11 <ehird> use tcp?
23:16:15 <fizzie> Some dual-stacked systems do so that if you listen on the wildcard ipv6 socket, you get also ipv4 connections using that funky mapped format.
23:16:16 <ehird> I guess so
23:16:44 <fizzie> It's a +tcp somewhere in the command line.
23:16:51 <ehird> +vc also work
23:16:52 <ehird> s
23:16:56 <ehird> +[no]vc (TCP mode)
23:16:56 <ehird> +[no]tcp (TCP mode, alternate syntax)
23:17:04 <ehird> % dig @127.0.0.1 -4 +vc google.com
23:17:07 <ehird> We have successory.
23:17:13 <ehird> ;; Query time: 1103 msec
23:17:21 <ehird> ;; Query time: 1532 msec
23:17:25 <ehird> It is the slow at first.
23:17:39 <ehird> OK, it's tcp vs udp.
23:17:47 <ehird> So something's up with udp port 56.
23:17:53 <ehird> The question is, what.
23:18:01 <fizzie> 53.
23:18:09 <ehird> Whatever mon.
23:18:22 <ehird> This is really odd.
23:18:28 <ehird> I wonder what's up with it.
23:18:32 <fizzie> Yes. Your system is the odd.
23:19:25 <ehird> Yes, Linux is wooing me atm.
23:19:59 <fizzie> Hm, that DNS-DDOS doesn't seem *so* popular any more; I reset those counters more than 15 minutes ago, and haven't seen a single incoming packet.
23:20:30 <ehird> I'm not too sure I like this 100msec initial lookup thing.
23:20:51 <ehird> Heh, my router doesn't seem to do tcpy dns.
23:20:54 <ehird> % dig +vc en.wikipedia.org [hang]
23:21:26 <ehird> fizzie: Got an obscure domoniker?
23:26:00 <ehird> Guess not.
23:26:16 <ehird> Anyhooways, it is annoying having a choice between two equals,.
23:32:24 <ehird> g
23:44:41 <AnMaster> night
23:45:08 <ehird> Wow:
23:45:09 <ehird> "Brandon Butterworth is a Principal Technologist in the BBC's research and development team and the man who first registered the bbc.co.uk domain"
23:45:21 <ehird> That's the guy that responded to the question I asked bogons.net
23:45:26 <ehird> Too cool!
23:45:43 <AnMaster> Okänd värddator bogons.net
23:45:44 <AnMaster> ?
23:45:50 <AnMaster> (unknown host)
23:46:02 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.bogons.net/ resolves for me.
23:46:12 <ehird> Oh.
23:46:15 <ehird> bogons.net doesn't resolve
23:46:16 <ehird> just www.
23:46:18 <AnMaster> fail
23:46:24 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it'll be how they've set up their servers
23:46:27 <ehird> since they're an isp
23:46:29 <ehird> a separate webserver
23:46:33 <ehird> physical
23:46:42 <AnMaster> ehird, even so...
23:46:43 <ehird> it's annoying but understandable
23:46:56 <AnMaster> ehird, why have it not resolve
23:47:03 <ehird> because it didn't cross their minds?
23:47:04 <AnMaster> they could do a CNAME or A record
23:47:06 <ehird> anyway they're one of the isps i'm considering
23:47:18 <ehird> they do ipv6, don't have bandwidth limits, don't shape traffic
23:47:22 <ehird> and give you a static ip for free
23:47:41 <AnMaster> wow
23:47:42 <ehird> I asked whether they shaped traffic and got a technical response from the guy who first registered the BBC's domain.
23:47:46 <ehird> So that is pretty awesome.
23:47:51 <AnMaster> ehird, xs4all under cover?
23:47:57 <ehird> AnMaster: heh
23:48:22 <AnMaster> "We have over 15 years experience of the Internet - dating from the start of the Internet in the UK in 1989. If you feel that your clue level isn't quite high enough to do-it-yourself yet,"
23:48:23 <AnMaster> hm
23:48:26 <AnMaster> they should update that
23:48:31 <ehird> AnMaster: ?
23:48:31 <AnMaster> that's 20 by now
23:48:34 <ehird> heh
23:49:05 <ehird> the other isp i'm considering is http://www.idnet.net/, but I'm leaning more to bogons now for the techness and smallness.
23:49:19 <ehird> AnMaster: are you sure xs4all does ipv6?
23:49:26 <ehird> I suppose they might, I'm just not aware of it
23:49:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well they do newszilla6.xs4all.nl (free for sixxs customers too!)
23:50:03 <AnMaster> somehow I then doubt they don't do ipv6 elsewhere...
23:50:05 <ehird> newszilla?
23:50:24 <ehird> I wonder if bogons provides usenet
23:51:46 <ehird> I guess probably
23:51:53 <ehird> AnMaster: heh, bogons is hard to google
23:51:56 <ehird> it's an internet-related term
23:52:01 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogon_filtering
23:52:25 <AnMaster> I know it is
23:52:30 <ehird> I didn't
23:52:47 <ehird> hmm
23:52:56 <ehird> they charge £10 more a month for 800Kbps upload
23:52:58 <ehird> vs 400Kbps
23:53:03 <ehird> Surely it can't be that different?
23:54:05 <ehird> I like how bogons don't bundle a shitrouter though
23:54:10 <ehird> I can get a linksys and put openwrt on it
23:54:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd prefer if they bundled a Cisco for those £10
23:54:45 <AnMaster> ;P
23:54:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:54:55 <ehird> why cisco?
23:55:00 <ehird> I've always heard recommendations for linksys
23:55:21 <AnMaster> ehird, high end? More expensive?
23:55:29 <ehird> you sure?
23:55:32 <ehird> cisco owns linksys
23:55:37 <AnMaster> ehird, not totally no
23:55:41 <AnMaster> heh
23:55:44 <AnMaster> I didn't know that
23:55:47 <ehird> linksys.com redirects to http://www.linksysbycisco.com/
23:55:50 <AnMaster> anyway I'd use openbsd still
23:55:55 <ehird> huh?
23:55:58 <ehird> on a router?
23:56:12 <ehird> That'd be a pain to get working... vs something like openwrt
23:56:13 <AnMaster> ehird, my router. A pentium 3, running openbsd
23:56:20 <ehird> AnMaster: That's not a "router".
23:56:20 <AnMaster> 2*
23:56:25 <ehird> :-P
23:56:26 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, it does NAT
23:56:30 <AnMaster> and all that
23:56:36 <ehird> Well that's silly
23:56:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I have a switch
23:56:41 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:56:42 <AnMaster> too
23:56:44 <AnMaster> behind it
23:56:54 <ehird> er... wait
23:56:58 <AnMaster> ehird, why is it silly?
23:56:58 <ehird> how do you plug it into the phoneline?
23:57:05 <ehird> I don't recall what cable it is, I'll go check
23:57:16 <AnMaster> switch - openbsd router - adsl modem - phone
23:57:16 <ehird> Wait, it's just ethernet isn't it?
23:57:30 <ehird> AnMaster: most modern routers have an adsl modem built in
23:57:35 <AnMaster> yes ethernet all the way except modem-phone which is special cable
23:57:53 <AnMaster> ehird, my adsl modem doesn't
23:57:54 <AnMaster> meh
23:58:09 <ehird> http://www.linksysbycisco.com/UK/en/products/Routers ← I like how they're all oh-so-stylish up to the WAP54G, when they turn into megauglys.
23:59:36 <ehird> http://www.linksysbycisco.com/UK/en/products/WRT54GL
23:59:38 <ehird> Linux Wireless
23:59:41 <ehird> Compatibility: two windows logos
23:59:45 <ehird> hur hur hur
23:59:53 <ehird> Minimum Requirements
23:59:53 <ehird> Internet Explorer 6.0 or Firefox 1.0 or Higher for Web-based coniguration
23:59:55 <ehird> CD-ROM Drive
23:59:57 <ehird> Windows 2000, XP, or Vista
23:59:59 <ehird> Network Adapteror Wireless Network Adapter
2009-04-03
00:00:01 <ehird> HUR HUR HU
00:00:03 <ehird> R
00:00:33 <oerjan> BEN HUR
00:02:02 <ehird> AnMaster: so, how surprising is it on the scale of 1 to 10 that i'm considering switching to pcs and ENTERPRISE LUNIX OPERATING SYSTEM(TM)
00:02:11 <ehird> I'm just trying to weigh up my remaining sanity
00:02:14 <AnMaster> hm
00:02:46 <AnMaster> ehird, is fractional values allowed?
00:02:54 <ehird> AnMaster: s/is/are/; yes.
00:02:59 <AnMaster> ah yes
00:03:03 <AnMaster> too late indeed
00:03:27 <AnMaster> well, 8.43182 or so. +/-1.127825
00:03:35 <ehird> I was expecting 11.9
00:03:46 <ehird>
00:04:00 <oerjan> <ehird> "To install djbdns, ..." GO TO HELL BERNSTEIN
00:04:14 <oerjan> i think that's a bit much just to install djbdns
00:04:18 <ehird> :-D
00:04:22 <AnMaster> ehird, so are you considering it?
00:04:25 <ehird> AnMaster: yes.
00:04:45 <ehird> if i'm getting an isp that lets me do what i want served via a router that lets me do what I want that runs on an OS that lets me do what I want...
00:04:50 <ehird> well, I guess my computer should let me do what I want too.
00:04:52 <oerjan> unless it comes with a world domination feature
00:05:07 <AnMaster> ehird, Yes. Feel the power of the dark side... Err wrong one... Come back to the light side of Linux?
00:05:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Pretty much the only thing making me hang on to OS X is the typography.
00:05:41 <ehird> I've been tweaking Ubuntu's for days in a VM and I'm still not satisfied. :D
00:06:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well personally I'd want ColorSync about 3-5 times per month
00:06:07 <AnMaster> but meh
00:06:12 <ehird> Maybe I'll get a CRT; they antialias by default (by blurring everything to hell)!
00:06:22 <AnMaster> typography doesn't matter that much
00:06:25 <ehird> I've never, ever used ColorSync AnMaster. Am I weird?
00:06:26 <AnMaster> but color profiles...
00:06:28 <ehird> Also, ooh boy don't say that.
00:06:34 <ehird> Typography is paramount.
00:06:47 <AnMaster> ehird, yes for you. And probably in other cases sure.
00:06:59 <AnMaster> I just mean to me personally color syncing is more important
00:07:03 <ehird> why?
00:07:22 <AnMaster> ehird, because I have an expensive camera that included colour profiles on the CD?
00:07:25 <ehird> Ah.
00:07:37 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm interested in photography and so on
00:07:42 <ehird> Oh, the other thing keeping me is that, well, the hardware is sort of bulky. I'm not much a fan of bulky stuff. Some seem better though.
00:07:48 <ehird> E.g., thinkpads & thinkcentres are pretty sleek.
00:08:04 <AnMaster> ehird, you can run Linux on a mac though
00:08:24 <oerjan> <ehird> propaganda.cn
00:08:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but it's kind of missing the point, isn't it? And the h/w support isn't too good.
00:08:33 <AnMaster> ehird, but I recommend a desktop that is 1-1.5 years old. Otherwise the hardware may be too new.
00:08:35 <AnMaster> :P
00:08:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm in the market for an upgrade. I can get it thousands cheaper if I buy a PC.
00:08:42 <ehird> That's a major factor.
00:08:51 <oerjan> ehird: that sounds like a weird kind of meta-honesty
00:08:58 <ehird> oerjan: wu
00:08:58 <ehird> t
00:09:06 <oerjan> <ehird> propaganda.cn
00:09:09 <ehird> oh
00:09:09 <ehird> ha
00:09:13 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yes.. upgrades... Saw that video that made a joke of Apple's "I'm a mac, I'm a PC" one?
00:09:23 <AnMaster> it was about upgrades
00:09:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Which one? There's thousands.
00:09:29 <oerjan> of course the papacy used it in earnest, i think
00:09:50 <AnMaster> ehird, PC got upgraded, Mac one got thrown out by next model. And that made the PC guy feel uneasy
00:09:55 <ehird> http://system76.com/ ← These are sleek, too bad they only ship to the USA and canuks.
00:10:00 <ehird> AnMaster: :-D
00:10:10 <AnMaster> as in hit by next Mac model guy on the back of the head.
00:10:26 <ehird> and they come with ubuntu installed
00:10:27 <ehird> which is niiice
00:10:30 <AnMaster> heh
00:11:18 <AnMaster> ehird, btw about upgrades. Computer case, PSU and one of the harddrives are the only original parts in my computer. Oh and the keyboard too.
00:11:25 <ehird> I just configured an "ideal megasystem" on system76; came out to £1,272
00:11:29 <AnMaster> ehird, everything else have been replaced over the years
00:11:46 <ehird> That's over two thousand pounds cheaper than the Mac Pro I was looking at.
00:11:59 <AnMaster> http://www.bogons.net/ has a better design than http://www.idnet.net/ IMO
00:12:00 <AnMaster> btw
00:12:06 <ehird> Well, the mac pro was a newer processor and it was 8 cores insetead of 4, but then it was also lower ghz.
00:12:07 <AnMaster> idnet is too flashy
00:12:13 <ehird> AnMaster: hey, system76 comes with an ATI card...
00:12:17 <ehird> yet they pre-install 64 bit ubuntu
00:12:20 <AnMaster> ehird, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
00:12:23 <ehird> Guess they only sell ones with good d rivers?
00:12:26 <ehird> "512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3 (DVI, VGA, S-Video, DVI to HDMI, DVI to VGA) "
00:12:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I'd go nvidia or intel
00:12:48 <AnMaster> depending on how important 3D is
00:12:49 -!- Asztal_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:13:04 <ehird> AnMaster: these are really cheap, though, and come without windows cruft, and are sleek
00:13:08 <AnMaster> AMD for CPU. Soundblaster Live! 5.1 from years ago for the sound card
00:13:12 <ehird> so if the ati has good drivers, well, that's fine by me
00:13:59 <ehird> it even comes with a 26" monitor because, you know, who cares about neck strain (i am very small)
00:14:04 <ehird> (I just basically maxed it out)
00:14:20 <ehird> Now to see if I can persuade them to ship to la UK
00:15:00 <AnMaster> flash drive is included as part?
00:15:04 <AnMaster> "portable flash drive"
00:15:08 <ehird> Country: [Canada | United States]
00:15:11 <ehird> Damn you system 76!
00:15:24 <AnMaster> hum
00:15:26 <ehird> I wonder if there's a service where, like, you ship to a holder place and they ship to you overseas.
00:15:28 <ehird> For a cost,
00:15:30 <ehird> .
00:15:35 <ehird> That would be quite profitable, I imagine.
00:15:39 <AnMaster> ehird, my dream desktop: $2,598.00
00:15:41 <AnMaster> :/
00:15:45 -!- Asztal_ has joined.
00:15:51 <ehird> AnMaster: that's pretty cheap for a dream
00:15:56 <ehird> what specs did you put on it? from where
00:15:57 <ehird> ?
00:16:00 <AnMaster> ehird, 8 GB RAM
00:16:07 <ehird> I had 8gb ram on mine too
00:16:07 <AnMaster> http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=82&osCsid=01a86245f6be36d74b29fa9819293eae
00:16:08 <AnMaster> that one
00:16:14 <ehird> 2.83ghz quad core
00:16:16 <AnMaster> maxed on most
00:16:23 <ehird> 2gb radeon 4870 X2 x16 thingy
00:16:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that doesn't show your choices
00:16:38 <AnMaster> ehird, well no idea how
00:16:46 <AnMaster> maxed on all but flash and keyboard/mouse
00:16:49 <AnMaster> where I selected no
00:16:53 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it is ATI
00:16:58 <AnMaster> it isn't a true dream system
00:16:59 <ehird> that's what i did, but I selected kb/mouse but I'm not sure why
00:17:13 <ehird> AnMaster: There's nothing intrinsically wrong with ATI. If the drivers are OK for the ones they ship, what's the problem?
00:17:13 <AnMaster> ehird, also why on earth would I buy it that way
00:17:18 <AnMaster> I'd want another mobo
00:17:22 <ehird> AnMaster: wut
00:17:28 <oerjan> bah propaganda.cn doesn't have a real website
00:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird, one with two serial connectors to begin with
00:18:04 <ehird> I'm really surprised how cheap system76 are
00:18:08 <ehird> I mean
00:18:19 <AnMaster> instead of none
00:18:24 <ehird> A mac pro with the same specs, roughly, would cost £5,000 pounds or so
00:18:29 <ehird> You can only get up to £1,600 or so with this
00:18:46 <ehird> AnMaster: serial? srsly?
00:18:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I use that still for some old hardware
00:19:06 <ehird> http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=29 hey, if you buy a server you can get octo-core :-D
00:19:09 <ehird> probably expensive as fuck
00:19:13 <oerjan> ehird: did you just pull that propaganda.cn domain out of your ass?
00:19:17 <ehird> oerjan: yar
00:19:24 <ehird> 2 x Quad Core Intel Xeon E5450 3.00 GHz 1333 MHz FSB 12 MB L2 45 nm ( +$2,150.00 )
00:19:25 <ehird> Drool.
00:19:34 <oerjan> so .cn probably has squatters too, or something
00:19:52 <oerjan> i cannot manage to google it, anyhow
00:19:54 <ehird> AnMaster: maxed out eland pro pedestal or rack:
00:19:55 <ehird> Price: $8,725.00
00:19:59 <AnMaster> also meh
00:20:00 <ehird> :-D
00:20:02 <AnMaster> it's all intel
00:20:05 <AnMaster> I'd go for AMD
00:20:09 <ehird> why
00:20:11 <ehird> nothing wrong with intel
00:20:28 <AnMaster> ehird, no 3DNow!~
00:20:31 <ehird> :-D
00:20:42 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know if such a ship-and-reship service exists?
00:21:25 <AnMaster> ehird, more seriously: I had a Pentium 4 once. It permanently damaged my trust of Intel.
00:21:34 <ehird> Well yeah pentium 4s are awful
00:21:40 <ehird> But core 2s are great
00:21:52 <ehird> Every company has bad times
00:21:58 <AnMaster> ehird, Maybe. The Core 7i (or was it i7?) look worse
00:22:14 <ehird> i7 has nehalem, which looks neat, but I'm not too fussed about that any more
00:22:35 <AnMaster> ehird, A friend of mine called his i7 for "pentium 4 new edition" yesterday...
00:22:39 <ehird> :-D
00:22:42 <ehird> Sounds bad
00:22:47 <ehird> AnMaster: So I guess you don't know if such a reship thingy exists?
00:23:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: do you know if such a ship-and-reship service exists? <-- hm?
00:23:17 * AnMaster tries to locate the relevant line in scrollback it refers to
00:23:27 <ehird> AnMaster: As in, system76 only ships to USA and Canada, so I wonder if a service exists where you ship to an address in the USA, then they reship it on to your international address for a (large) fee?
00:23:33 <ehird> That would be useful and also very profitable
00:23:42 <AnMaster> ehird, no idea.
00:23:48 <AnMaster> I never ordered from US
00:23:57 <ehird> Mm
00:24:08 <ehird> Worst case, I can ask a friend in the US to handle it, maybe
00:24:18 <ehird>
00:24:23 <ehird> AnMaster: didn't you say night an hour ago?
00:24:55 <AnMaster> I did. Bad resolve I think the technical term is?
00:25:03 <ehird> heh
00:25:46 <ehird> Well, system76 looks great
00:25:54 <ehird> I hate large form factors
00:25:57 <AnMaster> btw that server: You won't need monitor or such Nor DVD-RW
00:26:00 <AnMaster> heck
00:26:12 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant to use the server as a desktop machine
00:26:13 <AnMaster> a server you only use CD in once: initial install
00:26:15 <AnMaster> hopefully
00:26:28 <AnMaster> ehird, they don't come in quiet editions in my experience
00:26:33 <ehird> ah :-D
00:26:36 <AnMaster> because no one will care in a servere room
00:26:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Hmm ... http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=81 has the specs of the higher end desktop but seems to go cheaper
00:26:56 <ehird> It doesn't have as many video card options though
00:27:08 <AnMaster> "Currently Out of Stock - Please Check Back Soon"
00:27:08 <ehird> oh
00:27:11 <ehird> the memory isn't ddr3
00:27:13 <AnMaster> a bit of a dampener eh?
00:27:15 <ehird> 'up to 8 GB Blazing Fast DDR 3 Memory '
00:27:15 <ehird> :-P
00:27:17 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
00:27:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I want FB RAM
00:27:21 <ehird> on the higher end one
00:27:22 <AnMaster> :D
00:27:25 <ehird> FB ram?
00:27:30 <AnMaster> fully buffered
00:27:36 <ehird> http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=91 WOW is this low end
00:28:00 <AnMaster> is it?
00:28:13 <ehird> AnMaster: look at the cpu specs!
00:28:15 <AnMaster> it beats both my pentium 2 and pentium 3 easily
00:28:22 <ehird> modern low end I mean
00:28:27 <ehird> I couldn't bear to work on such a machine
00:28:31 <AnMaster> heh
00:28:38 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be a thin client probably?
00:28:46 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it's meant for low-end desktop users
00:29:00 <ehird> Even my mother's computer is dual-core, though, and she just uses gmail :-P
00:29:12 <AnMaster> interesting servers have "no OS" option, but clients doesn't
00:29:26 <ehird> Well, they get a lot of publicity from the ubuntu camp
00:29:29 <AnMaster> Ubuntu 8.04 LTS Server Edition 64 bit
00:29:29 <AnMaster> Ubuntu 8.10 Server Edition 64 bit
00:29:33 <AnMaster> what does LTS mean?
00:29:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Long Term Support
00:29:40 <AnMaster> oh
00:29:43 <ehird> occasionally they do a release that they support for like 4 years
00:29:51 <AnMaster> I see
00:30:20 <AnMaster> ehird, mine is single core, but it was rather upper middle end in 2005
00:30:25 <ehird> Mm
00:30:27 <AnMaster> or lower high end
00:30:44 <ehird> The maxed out "Wild Dog" one is middle high end
00:30:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I won't buy a new CPU until I need one.
00:30:50 <ehird> Where the high end is things like nehalem 8-cores
00:30:58 <ehird> 26" KDS Widescreen LCD (1920 x 1200) ( +$380.00 )
00:31:00 <ehird> I wonder who KDS are
00:31:07 <ehird> http://www.kdsusa.com/
00:31:10 <ehird> Never heard of them
00:31:28 <ehird> Hope that Wild Dog thing has controllable fans
00:31:31 <ehird> Well, it probably does.
00:31:48 <AnMaster> ehird, real dream: Modern massively parallel Lisp machine with a real time IBM Roadrunner emulator built in
00:31:49 <AnMaster> :D
00:32:01 <ehird> My real dream is a pony.
00:32:03 <ehird> ;_;
00:32:07 <AnMaster> meh
00:32:16 <AnMaster> that's not as cool as a lisp machine
00:32:16 <ehird> Someone should install linux on a pony
00:32:27 <ehird> Like, operate on them and put computer stuff in between the organs
00:32:32 <AnMaster> ehird, cruelty to animals!
00:32:35 <ehird> Then boot linux on it
00:32:43 <ehird> It neighs, it boots!
00:32:58 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Roadrunner_supercomputer_HiRes.jpg
00:33:01 <ehird> Those look pretty
00:33:14 <ehird> Wouldn't want to dust that thing
00:33:17 <ehird> Memory103.6 TiB
00:33:21 <ehird> ;O-O;
00:33:49 <AnMaster> yeah it's irritating isn't it
00:33:52 <AnMaster> the TiB thing
00:33:54 <ehird> "The Roadrunner uses Red Hat Enterprise Linux along with Fedora as its operating systems "
00:33:55 <AnMaster> TB duh
00:34:00 <ehird> lol, I can't imagine booting fedora on that
00:34:04 <ehird> It'd be like... like... I don't know
00:34:09 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, would have to install Gentoo on it
00:34:18 <ehird> Linus uses Fedora
00:34:22 <AnMaster> kde? a few minutes to compile
00:34:24 <ehird> "Linus Torvalds, author of the Linux kernel, says he uses Fedora because it had fairly good support for PowerPC when he used that processor architecture. He became accustomed to the operating system and continues to use it."
00:34:30 <ehird> AnMaster: a few minutes? Seriously?
00:34:32 <ehird> It'd only take seconds.
00:34:39 <ehird> Think about it
00:34:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it is optimised for floating point stuff
00:34:43 <ehird> it's massively, massively parallel
00:34:48 <ehird> "12,960 IBM PowerXCell[6] 8i CPUs and 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-core processors"
00:34:50 <AnMaster> compiling is integer heavy
00:34:53 <AnMaster> ehird, ^
00:34:53 <ehird> You could compile all the files at once
00:34:57 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not the point
00:35:02 <ehird> you can compile everything at once, pretty much
00:35:08 <AnMaster> ehird, dependencies
00:35:18 <AnMaster> and scheduling overhead
00:35:21 <ehird> AnMaster: regardless, KDE takes, what,an hour on a high end machine?
00:35:28 <ehird> i'd say <60sec.
00:35:39 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure. Mine isn't that high end
00:35:46 <AnMaster> it takes around 4 hours on this one
00:35:56 <AnMaster> for kdelibs + kdebase + kdevelop
00:36:05 <AnMaster> which are the parts of KDE I use basically
00:36:09 <ehird> The best way to justify a purchase of an expensive new PC
00:36:17 <ehird> is to compile gcc with -j(1.5*cores)
00:36:20 <AnMaster> heh
00:36:21 <ehird> and watch it flow by
00:36:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I compiled some C++ apps on a Quad core Opetron server yesterday
00:36:49 <AnMaster> was amazing
00:37:03 <ehird> How does opteron match up to core 2?
00:37:10 <ehird> I guess roughly the same
00:37:22 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, you should move c-intercal
00:37:23 <ehird> to gopher
00:37:27 <ehird> gopher over ipv6 only
00:37:32 <AnMaster> ehird, haha
00:37:37 <AnMaster> I might do that tomorrow
00:37:40 <AnMaster> just because
00:37:44 <AnMaster> it would certainly fit
00:37:50 <AnMaster> but too tired tonight
00:38:15 <AnMaster> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Roadrunner_supercomputer_HiRes.jpg <-- interesting warning label
00:38:17 <ehird> how do people use huge displays?
00:38:20 <ehird> i mean
00:38:22 <ehird> don't their necks hurt :|
00:38:33 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you define huge in this case
00:38:40 <ehird> AnMaster: "If you touch a computer, it will fall down and another will take its place."
00:38:40 <AnMaster> if it is 21" I can answer
00:38:47 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I have a 20" here
00:38:50 <ehird> I mean like 26" up
00:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird, hahaha
00:38:56 <AnMaster> ehird, ah no idea then
00:39:03 <ehird> I guess they just have it lower down
00:39:08 <ehird> and are bigger than me :P
00:39:28 <AnMaster> ehird, btw does that mean you can hotplug modules in IBM Roadrunner?
00:39:43 <ehird> AnMaster: "meep meep"
00:39:47 <AnMaster> err?
00:39:48 <AnMaster> what?
00:39:53 <ehird> in other news, AMD renames themselves to Acme
00:39:57 <AnMaster> hah
00:40:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Wile E. Coyote, Roadrunner…
00:40:08 <AnMaster> oh duh indeed
00:40:24 <AnMaster> ehird, btw see those AMD labels? Want Intel or AMD now? ;P
00:40:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Give me ten thousand of them and I'll think about it :-)
00:41:12 <AnMaster> meh. s/give/let you pay for yourself and test/ and I'm with you
00:41:15 <AnMaster> ;P
00:41:28 <ehird> slicehost don't do ipv6 :-(
00:41:43 <AnMaster> ehird, too few do IME
00:41:52 <AnMaster> also
00:41:56 <ehird> Well, it must be said that, you know, not many people use ipv6.
00:42:01 <AnMaster> did you see the second 1 april RFC this year?
00:42:08 <AnMaster> (or did you miss the link?)
00:42:10 <ehird> It did prove to be a good way to narrow down my ISP choices, though — to include only competent ones.
00:42:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Relink?
00:42:15 <AnMaster> meh
00:42:56 <AnMaster> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5513
00:43:10 <ehird> AIEEEEEEEE
00:43:13 <AnMaster> ehird, ?
00:43:15 <ehird> For example, RFC is a TLA formed of the first letters of the
00:43:15 <ehird> phrase Rugby Football Club [URL-CARDIFF].
00:43:45 <AnMaster> hm
00:43:54 <AnMaster> tools.ietf.org times out here
00:44:08 <ehird> http://system76.com/images/wild_dog_P5_large_back.jpg ← Doesn't this have less than the minimum required Port Cruft for a PC?
00:44:16 <ehird> There's legal standards for PC ugliness, you know.
00:44:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yes they removed serial. Which is why it is a no-go
00:44:50 <ehird> Yeah, if you're a dinosaur :P
00:44:51 <AnMaster> also it is too wide or not tall enough
00:45:00 <ehird> No, it's just right, I hate big PCs :-D
00:45:31 <AnMaster> ehird, it wouldn't work in Europe. Observe back of power supply.
00:45:40 <AnMaster> no voltage switching thingy
00:45:46 <ehird> AnMaster: can't you get an adapter?
00:45:51 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe
00:46:08 <ehird> it'd be a shame to lose it over something so, well, trivial
00:46:11 <AnMaster> ehird, that would remove the "low power usage thingy" mentioned there though
00:46:18 <ehird> hmm
00:46:22 <ehird> why wouldn't an adapter preserve that?
00:46:57 <AnMaster> ehird, adapters leaks in the form of heat and such. Even those built into the power supply in the computer
00:47:02 <AnMaster> add more and you get more leakage
00:47:07 <ehird> ugh.
00:47:12 <ehird> :(
00:47:15 <AnMaster> simple, dear ehird!
00:47:16 <AnMaster> ;P
00:47:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, if it was a good adapter it wouldnt' add too much overhead would it?
00:47:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I don't have hard figures on that. But still you will get some leakage for every adapter you add
00:48:06 <AnMaster> but couldn't you replace power supply?
00:48:12 <ehird> AnMaster: you mean internally?
00:48:16 <AnMaster> yeah
00:48:17 <ehird> I'm not sure I trust myself to do that
00:48:26 <AnMaster> they aren't screws though on the back
00:48:29 <AnMaster> or?
00:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: how much do they cost?
00:48:44 <ehird> also, yes there are
00:48:50 <ehird> AnMaster: the silver things on the black border
00:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, search me. I just know I took mine out once to be able to blow away some dust
00:49:06 <AnMaster> worked fine
00:49:30 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of screwhead? Surface seeems even to me
00:49:44 <ehird> AnMaster: look at the top-right one
00:49:47 <ehird> on the side
00:49:50 <ehird> there's a single horizontal line
00:49:51 <ehird> dent
00:49:52 <AnMaster> at the power supply
00:49:53 <AnMaster> ..
00:49:58 <ehird> oh.
00:50:03 <ehird> AnMaster: you'd just take it all off, no?
00:50:06 <ehird> and operate inside
00:50:19 <ehird> I'll ask my hardware-y USian friend, I guess
00:50:52 <ehird> Nice, the system76 people are on the ubuntu forums
00:51:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well on my case you remove the side of the case first, then you hold your hand under the PSU to prevent it falling down while removing the screws from the outside. in the locations of those "balls" aprox.
00:51:15 <MizardX> One big cable to the mother board. One cable to each device. Not very hard to replug if you remove it.
00:51:15 <ehird> ahh - that slow atom thing hyperthreads
00:51:17 <ehird> that'd explain it
00:51:19 <AnMaster> don't know how standard it is
00:51:23 <ehird> MizardX: ofc.
00:51:42 <AnMaster> MizardX, yeah too easy IMO
00:51:46 <AnMaster> too easy for non-geeks
00:51:49 <ehird> lol
00:51:51 <ehird> "Why so expensive?" on the system76 forums o_O
00:52:07 <AnMaster> ehird, make interface harder and more geeks would get highly paid
00:52:13 <ehird> AnMaster: sort of like c++/
00:52:14 <ehird> ?
00:52:24 <AnMaster> oh damn you are right
00:52:30 <AnMaster> that's what C++ is all about indeed.
00:52:34 <AnMaster> it must be so..
00:52:38 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/FakeIEEEStroustrupInterview.shtml
00:53:02 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I read that. I just played that reply for the dramatic effet.
00:53:04 <AnMaster> effect*
00:53:07 <ehird> heh
00:53:15 <AnMaster> I was in fact even thinking about http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/FakeIEEEStroustrupInterview.shtml as I wrote it
00:53:49 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway keep the geeks who are good at designing noob friendly interfaces well away from any interfaces
00:54:03 <ehird> heh
00:54:09 <ehird> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1111781
00:54:12 <ehird> >I wanted to know if System76 planned to release any Core i7 desktops in the near future.
00:54:12 <ehird> I'm sure we probably will. We're always looking into the latest and greatest. I don't have specs or an ETA available, though.
00:54:13 <AnMaster> ehird, provide a high voltage external connector if needed
00:54:22 <ehird> Don't do that to me, guys! I can't upgrade if you're about to upgrade :-)
00:54:26 <AnMaster> that is on the outside
00:54:31 <AnMaster> that should keep noobs away
00:54:34 <ehird> AnMaster: lawl
00:55:09 <AnMaster> truth is, it would keep me away too....
00:55:14 <ehird> So... system76 "wild dog" quad core 2.83ghz + bogons internet w/ openwrt-installed linux wireless linksys router
00:55:25 <ehird> It's like "The Metamorphisis".
00:55:34 <ehird> *Metamorphosis
00:55:35 <AnMaster> ehird, do you need that computer for bogons internet?
00:55:38 <ehird> AnMaster: no
00:55:47 <AnMaster> or just designing dream?
00:55:52 <ehird> It's a "one thing lead to another" thing.
00:55:53 <AnMaster> you aim too low
00:55:56 <ehird> And sort of, except more "reality" than "dream".
00:56:02 <ehird> As in, "this is what I'm planning to get"
00:56:19 <AnMaster> Personal IBM Roadrunner colocated with at googleplex.
00:56:21 <AnMaster> No less!
00:56:29 <ehird> heh
00:56:30 <AnMaster> s/with/
00:56:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Imagine having complete access to Google's server farm
00:56:51 <AnMaster> ehird, no, that would melt my mind
00:56:58 <AnMaster> I'd rather not try to imagine it
00:57:03 <ehird> AnMaster: so THAT's how they do their indexing!
00:57:05 <ehird> invite people to try it out
00:57:07 <ehird> their minds melt
00:57:09 <ehird> they put them in a jar
00:57:13 <ehird> hook it up to the computers
00:57:18 <ehird> == amazing computing power
00:57:27 <AnMaster> ehird, it would only melt geeks' brains right?
00:57:28 <ehird> a billion cores
00:57:35 <AnMaster> I mean a manager would not be affected
00:57:42 <AnMaster> oh indeed, google is evil
00:57:44 <ehird> AnMaster: no, they make it look like a windows desktop for them
00:57:51 <ehird> but whenever you open outlook or IE
00:57:55 <ehird> it turns into a really old unix system
00:57:58 <ehird> error messages all over the place
00:58:00 <ehird> huge virus warnings
00:58:05 <ehird> etc
00:58:06 <AnMaster> would that melt the mind of a manager?
00:58:17 <ehird> AnMaster: When the manager calls for a techie,
00:58:30 <ehird> androids supposedly infected with a virus come and yell at them.
00:58:35 <ehird> Think about it.
00:58:36 <AnMaster> that techie's mind would melt...
00:58:37 <ehird> Broken techies.
00:58:41 <AnMaster> hm maybe
00:58:42 <ehird> What can the manager do?
00:58:49 <ehird> Call for more techies./
00:58:55 <ehird> Then they just heat the room up so it melts.
00:59:01 <AnMaster> heh
00:59:41 <AnMaster> meh I'm almost falling asleep on keyboard. I'm going to eat some garlic (yum!) and go to sleep
00:59:48 <ehird> ew garlic
00:59:48 <ehird> bye
00:59:52 <AnMaster> ehird, err what?
00:59:56 <AnMaster> what's wrong with garlic!
01:00:00 <AnMaster> nothing
01:00:04 <AnMaster> it's perfect
01:00:04 <ehird> Garlic is a nice seasoner
01:00:19 <AnMaster> ehird, s/seasoner/base/
01:00:29 <AnMaster> s/potato/garlic/
01:00:37 <AnMaster> s/.*/garlic/
01:00:45 <ehird> AnMaster: s/mind/garlic/
01:00:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yes!
01:01:32 <AnMaster> ehird, and I allow bacon to coexist if you want. Maybe you could try garlic and bacon flavour
01:01:36 <AnMaster> on something
01:01:38 <AnMaster> combined I mean
01:01:47 <ehird> Hmm.
01:01:49 <ehird> Intriguing.
01:01:52 <ehird> But bacon is best with more bacon.
01:02:03 <AnMaster> For you ehird bacon is holy. For me it is garlic.
01:02:17 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'd say garlic is best with more garlic
01:02:31 <AnMaster> however, Swedes are known for compromises.
01:02:54 <ehird> "2.1 - Logitech X-230 - 2 Satellites, 1 Subwoofer ( +$49.00 )"
01:02:56 <AnMaster> we always try to reach some solution that isn't too bad for either side.
01:03:00 <ehird> Those speakers look nice.
01:03:15 <ehird> I have crappy internal ones atm
01:03:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't buy them. I prefer my high end headphones. AKG 240 Studio.
01:03:32 <ehird> I like speakers and headphones. It depends.
01:03:39 <AnMaster> have yet to find speakers giving as good sound as them
01:03:51 <AnMaster> the even manage bass very well.
01:04:01 <AnMaster> hm
01:04:04 <AnMaster> is that right word
01:04:09 <AnMaster> bass? bas? base?
01:04:10 <AnMaster> um
01:04:25 <ehird> bass.
01:04:40 <AnMaster> sv:bas means both en:base and en:bass
01:04:49 <AnMaster> which means I mix them up in English sometimes
01:04:51 <ehird> I generally prefer speakers because headphones tend to... well, the music clogs my brain.
01:04:58 <AnMaster> ehird, huh?
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01:05:06 <ehird> Without the atmosphere noises & echo and whatnot that come from speakers, the sound sort of blots out other thought.
01:05:18 <ehird> So I can use headphones when just idly browsing the web and listening to music, but not really much else.
01:05:47 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. Your harddrive isn't as loud clearly :P
01:06:09 <ehird> I need my components to be near-silent.
01:06:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I wish I had that. I don't.
01:06:21 <AnMaster> :(
01:06:25 <ehird> I like the sound of ... well, not silence, just the sound of a room without any noise in it.
01:06:31 <AnMaster> hm
01:06:40 <AnMaster> what is those non-headphones
01:06:44 <AnMaster> for blocking noise
01:06:47 <ehird> earmuffs.
01:06:51 <ehird> Guess you could say my favourite song is 4'33"
01:06:51 <AnMaster> looks like headphones yeah
01:07:06 <AnMaster> ehird, often see people working with machines with them
01:07:07 <AnMaster> hm
01:07:11 <ehird> yes
01:07:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earmuffs
01:07:21 <AnMaster> I heard the word "ear protector" too I think?
01:07:27 <ehird> yes
01:08:02 <ehird> Hey, does anyone know if you can get the BIOS to not spew info?
01:08:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I usually use mine when working with my computer
01:08:10 <ehird> I like a bootup process without lots of text.
01:08:17 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I only know how to get it to spew more
01:08:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Wow, how loud are your fans?
01:08:18 <AnMaster> :/
01:08:23 <AnMaster> ehird, too loud
01:08:30 <ehird> I used to sleep next to my computer
01:08:38 <ehird> Shitty mobo, shitty cpu, <1gb of ram, shitty fans
01:08:39 <AnMaster> ehird, + I'm over-sensitive to sound
01:08:47 <ehird> And I was only a few cm away from it
01:08:49 <AnMaster> as in, I got much better than normal hearing
01:08:53 <ehird> It was *awful*.
01:09:05 <AnMaster> was tested some years ago
01:09:16 <AnMaster> ehird, so they aren't that loud to other people
01:09:21 <AnMaster> for me however...
01:09:26 <ehird> I have rather precise hearing.
01:09:30 <ehird> And sight.
01:09:45 <AnMaster> well I'm less gifted in the sight department
01:09:52 <AnMaster> (glasses)
01:10:08 <ehird> I can pick out individual pixels from not-that-close to a monitor
01:10:11 <ehird> Well, not if it's high dpi
01:10:22 <ehird> I can't really watch analog tvs
01:10:25 <AnMaster> ehird, heh I can't do that unless I bend very close
01:10:27 <ehird> Too much distortion
01:10:41 <ehird> I guess you could say I'm a pedant in more than just language.
01:11:11 <AnMaster> ehird, luckily this room is too small to have the bed in, and the other room to small to have the desk in. Thus I sleep in another room where I don't hear the computer
01:11:21 <ehird> I guess it's funny that I don't really like headphones when I like post-rock
01:11:29 <AnMaster> oh?
01:11:30 <ehird> Sort of contradictory there.
01:12:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I find headphones are excellent for classical music (in the wider sense too)
01:12:13 <ehird> Well, post-rock is very related to classical music.
01:12:16 <AnMaster> mhm
01:12:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't really know which genre post-rock is
01:12:54 <AnMaster> as soon as it says "post" it is too new to have a proper name IMO
01:12:55 <AnMaster> ;P
01:13:06 <ehird> AnMaster: It's basically classical music done with electric guitars. Tends to be a bit pretentious.
01:13:09 <AnMaster> ehird, how about some Jazz?
01:13:18 <ehird> I like some jazz.
01:13:29 <AnMaster> interesting. We share that taste heh
01:13:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I like Autechre's Gantz Graf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwD05XA2YQ -- go figure.
01:13:37 <AnMaster> (is the world ending yet?)
01:13:42 <ehird> Yes.
01:13:44 <ehird> This is actually limbo.
01:13:53 <AnMaster> define:limbo?
01:14:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Post-death, between heaven and hell.
01:14:22 <ehird> The catholics are more precise about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
01:14:25 <AnMaster> post-*: too new for me ;P
01:14:29 <ehird> "the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the damned"
01:14:30 <AnMaster> I told you above
01:14:46 <ehird> AnMaster: autechre isn't post-rock
01:14:59 <ehird> You should load that in your youtubey-thingy so you can marvel at what bad taste I have.
01:15:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> "the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the damned" <--- space constraints in hell?
01:15:06 <ehird> AnMaster: :-D
01:16:36 <AnMaster> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwD05XA2YQ <-- this is music?
01:16:45 <ehird> Yes.
01:17:09 <AnMaster> so... the world _is_ comming to an end
01:17:11 <ehird> [[Sarah Dempster, writing for the NME, gave the EP a strongly negative review, claiming "It bleeps. It skronks. It krrraaaanks. But mainly, it blows like a ruddy awful hurricane." She also called it a "festering hillock of tune-shy bum-wank."]]
01:17:18 <ehird> I agree completely and I still like it :-D
01:18:01 <ehird> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Autechremax.jpg <-- This is the kind of thing the group who made that do
01:18:11 <ehird> I can't for the life of me understand a colour picker in a music application but there you go
01:18:16 <AnMaster> ehird, SFW?
01:18:19 <ehird> Yes
01:18:20 <AnMaster> ehird, SFM?
01:18:21 <ehird> It's a screenshot
01:18:23 <ehird> No
01:18:25 <ehird> Not SFM
01:18:29 <AnMaster> what?
01:18:34 <ehird> Safe for mind
01:18:37 <AnMaster> yes
01:18:41 <ehird> It's not safe for mind.
01:18:44 <AnMaster> hm
01:18:55 <ehird> If you consider that it purports to create music.
01:18:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I see that screenshot
01:19:02 <AnMaster> but I don't know what it means
01:19:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think _they_ do
01:19:19 <AnMaster> oh ok
01:19:24 <AnMaster> it runs on OS X
01:19:32 <AnMaster> with too many apps running
01:19:44 <ehird> They're not running
01:19:48 <ehird> Only the ones with a ^ are running
01:20:03 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a sequencing thingy used by Autechre, who made that Gantz Graf thing
01:20:03 <AnMaster> oh right, forgot that
01:20:08 <AnMaster> too many apps in the dock still
01:20:12 <ehird> It's in max/msp which is like visual programming for audio/video stuff
01:20:19 <ehird> And it's completely insane
01:20:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what's the colour picker for?
01:20:36 <ehird> 'Coreboot (previously LinuxBIOS) is something that our R&D department keeps an eye on. At some point in the future we may use it. However, there is a lot of testing that needs to be done before we could adopt it as a BIOS replacement. '
01:20:38 <ehird> -system76
01:20:44 <ehird> AnMaster: one of the input parameters to it
01:20:54 <ehird> I didn't know you could install coreboot
01:21:24 <AnMaster> ehird, well you can flash it into your old BIOS
01:21:30 <AnMaster> if you dare
01:21:34 <ehird> AnMaster: er... what does that involve?
01:21:36 <ehird> it sounds very scary
01:22:09 <AnMaster> ehird, booting a floppy, and making sure your BIOS is removable so you can replace the chipset with a backup one if something fails
01:22:18 <AnMaster> (make sure to have one too)
01:22:24 <ehird> oh, i was expecting like, soldering
01:22:35 <AnMaster> ehird, flashing your BIOS
01:22:37 <AnMaster> never done it?
01:22:40 <AnMaster> for upgrades or such
01:22:41 <ehird> Nope
01:22:45 <AnMaster> you boot a DOS floppy
01:22:48 <AnMaster> and run some command
01:22:49 <AnMaster> and wait
01:22:54 <AnMaster> hope it all works
01:22:56 <AnMaster> and then reboot
01:23:08 <ehird> does coreboot have any advantages apart from being opensourc?
01:23:08 <ehird> e
01:23:11 <ehird> like, is it faster?
01:23:17 <ehird> '- Fast boot times 3 sec. '
01:23:20 <ehird> apparently, yes.
01:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it can boot linux faster yes
01:23:23 <ehird> that sounds great
01:23:27 <AnMaster> since it can skip many steps
01:23:44 <AnMaster> ehird, your hardware could die if you fail it though
01:23:49 <AnMaster> as in something breaks
01:23:51 <ehird> AnMaster: 1yr warranty
01:23:58 <ehird> i guess it might not count if it's my fault :-)
01:24:01 <ehird> I plead insanity
01:24:02 <AnMaster> ehird, flashing bios would void warranty
01:24:06 <ehird> yarr
01:24:10 <AnMaster> for all computers I have seen
01:24:19 <AnMaster> that is except official upgrades
01:24:33 <ehird> hmm
01:24:35 <AnMaster> I flashed the BIOS on a dell once that couldn't keep it's time
01:24:37 <ehird> so 3 seconds in bios
01:24:38 <AnMaster> it helped
01:24:43 <ehird> then ~20-30 sec in linux booting
01:24:50 <ehird> that'd be even faster to boot than this mac
01:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, um I got those 20 seconds down to 13 on my p3
01:25:09 <AnMaster> though I admit it doesn't start X
01:25:15 <ehird> AnMaster: doesn't count :-)
01:25:17 <AnMaster> it starts sshd and nfsd basically
01:25:39 <AnMaster> oh and syslog and cron of course
01:25:44 <AnMaster> but that's it iirc
01:25:58 <ehird> Say, what's the recommended filesystem for data/os these days?
01:26:05 <ehird> ext3 for os/progs?
01:26:12 <AnMaster> ehird, oh my. Why did you ask about ise vs ize...
01:26:14 <AnMaster> err
01:26:20 <AnMaster> same thing basically
01:26:20 <ehird> ..
01:26:25 <ehird> i mean
01:26:31 <ehird> ext3 for os/progs, and what for data?
01:27:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I use ext3 for / /boot /usr /var, xfs for rest. With different block sizes depending on for what
01:27:23 <ehird> xfs... isn't that the sun thing?
01:27:27 <AnMaster> actually /var/tmp is xfs too,
01:27:33 <AnMaster> ehird, err it is the irix one
01:27:37 <ehird> I may just put it all on one fs to avoid slowness copying between partitions
01:27:38 <AnMaster> jfs is the ibm one
01:27:46 <ehird> AnMaster: I hate the forced regular fsck
01:27:50 <ehird> oh I was thinking of zfs
01:27:52 <AnMaster> zfs is the sun one
01:27:53 <AnMaster> indeed
01:28:08 <ehird> but yeah... "I hate the forced regular fsck" a lot
01:28:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well you can disable that forced fsck
01:28:19 <AnMaster> if you know the relevant man pages
01:28:20 <ehird> AnMaster: is that good for stability, though/
01:28:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess it is an extra safe guard
01:28:39 <AnMaster> but with small partitions it doesn't take long anyway
01:29:05 <ehird> AnMaster: 750gb :-P
01:29:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I just said you _could_, I didn't recommend it
01:29:24 <AnMaster> ehird, that's one disk (in a RAID 1 pair), not one partition
01:29:25 <AnMaster> :P
01:29:37 <ehird> I don't do RAID
01:29:39 <ehird> for better or for worse
01:29:49 <ehird> oh wait you can get 1tb
01:29:51 <ehird> make that 1tb.
01:29:57 <AnMaster> anyway I'm too sleepy to explain partitioning that I prefer. Partly it depends on your own needs too
01:30:27 <ehird> AnMaster: my current backup plan is http://www.tarsnap.com/, which encrypts your backup with aes and puts it on amazon s3 (which a lot of businesses etc critically rely on, so it's very stable)
01:30:42 <AnMaster> argh
01:30:47 <ehird> wut
01:30:53 <AnMaster> why does the clicky url include the ,
01:30:55 <AnMaster> after /
01:31:01 <ehird> blame yer client :D
01:31:02 <AnMaster> means 404
01:31:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I blame the messenger instead ;P
01:31:18 <GregorR> I got a BeagleBoard 8-D
01:31:49 <AnMaster> ehird, how much does s3 cost?
01:31:53 <ehird> AnMaster: from looking around, ati cards seem fine in linux as long as they're one of the well-supported ones
01:32:02 <ehird> AnMaster: also, something like a few cents a gig
01:32:04 <ehird> it's ridiculously cheap
01:32:08 <ehird> but tarsnap pays it for you
01:32:10 <ehird> you pay tarsnap
01:32:13 <ehird> colin percival runs it
01:32:14 <ehird> of bsd fame
01:32:18 <AnMaster> hm...
01:32:32 <AnMaster> daemonology guy?
01:32:35 <AnMaster> oh indeed then
01:32:36 <ehird> yes
01:32:41 <AnMaster> and now. Night. Finally
01:32:45 <AnMaster> period.
01:32:48 <AnMaster> night
01:32:49 <ehird> As you use tarsnap, money will be deducted from your account daily at a rate of
01:32:49 <ehird> 300 picodollars USD per byte of bandwidth used ($0.30 / GB), and
01:32:50 <ehird> 300 picodollars USD per byte-month of storage ($0.30 / GB / month).
01:33:03 <ehird> hmm wait...
01:33:10 <ehird> so that'd be $225 a month to back up a 750gb drive
01:33:11 <ehird> ouch
01:33:18 <ehird> that's just for storage
01:33:29 <ehird> oh wait
01:33:31 <ehird> it's compressed
01:33:32 <ehird> hm
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01:49:32 <kerlo> Dollars USD.
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01:51:48 <oerjan> the kind you get from an ATM machine if you've can just remember your PIN number
01:51:53 <oerjan> *you
01:53:05 <oerjan> i wonder if this was covered in that request RFC about the TLA acronyms
01:53:51 <Robdgreat> I'm from the Dept. of Redundancy Dept. You're coming with me.
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01:54:39 <oerjan> http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2450.txt <<< wait, what?
01:54:58 <oerjan> i think that's FAIL
01:55:39 <oerjan> the DRD department will _never_ get me *runs*
01:58:39 * Robdgreat drops a hot water heater on oerjan
01:59:27 * oerjan gives the heater a cold shoulder
01:59:31 <oerjan> *ouch*
02:00:31 * oerjan decapitates the heater and takes a shower in the process
02:01:00 <Robdgreat> for your FYI, that hot water heater was just like a hot water heater to me
02:01:16 <Robdgreat> and you killed it dead
02:01:17 <oerjan> figures
02:01:41 * oerjan turns the corpse into a makeshift fort
02:02:04 <Robdgreat> you're surrounded on all sides! Surrender and give yourself up!
02:04:51 <oerjan> i surrender, i seem to have run out of redundancies
02:04:59 <Robdgreat> hahah
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02:05:58 <Sgeo> |*-*|
02:06:40 <Robdgreat> now look what you've done. you've gone and woken Sgeo
02:06:58 <oerjan> ayeeh!
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02:32:21 <kerlo> What are we talking about and talking about?
02:32:40 <kerlo> (Yep, that and that are right. It's the really annoying and annoying way of being redundant and redundant.)
02:36:04 <oerjan> but it is neither clever nor clever
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02:48:56 <kerlo> It wouldn't be annoying if it were clever, now, would it?
02:49:06 <kerlo> (As opposed to ". . ., now, would it.")
02:51:01 <oerjan> it might. i'm sure John Cleese could pull it off.
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07:57:01 <fizzie> AnMaster always says "night" a couple of times, but never manages to actually go away.
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13:34:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah
13:34:13 <AnMaster> I know
13:34:30 <AnMaster> addicted to irc
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14:44:27 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: hmm, does cfunge 0.4.0 have been released officially? it seems kuonet.org works now but not updated.
14:45:29 <lifthrasiir> ah i thought http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ is official page; but there is also sf.net project...
14:46:55 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yes it works now, but I haven't had time to update it
14:46:59 <AnMaster> will do that shortly
14:47:10 <AnMaster> trying to fix a broken backup script atm...
14:47:18 <AnMaster> (that is way more important to me...)
14:47:27 <lifthrasiir> then i should mention your sysinfo-multi-stack-sizes.b98 has a bug... ;)
14:47:42 <AnMaster> details?
14:49:32 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, ?
14:49:36 <lifthrasiir> hmm
14:49:52 <lifthrasiir> i should recheck the issue... not sure yet
14:50:22 <lifthrasiir> i thought 2a*1+k$ should be 2a*k$
14:50:30 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, It may be wrong, I remember Deewiant and me discussing what was the right order to push the sizes of the stack-stacks in.
14:50:32 <AnMaster> hm
14:50:41 <lifthrasiir> no, order is not a problem
14:50:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that is quite possible, it is a bit old and mycology used to misinterpret the specs for k
14:51:08 <lifthrasiir> there is 12 cells and 5 vectors to be pushed by y command before stack stack information...
14:51:17 <Deewiant> Everybody used to misinterpret the specs for k :-P
14:51:20 <lifthrasiir> :p
14:51:38 <AnMaster> had to change the way k was handled when Mike Riley showed up with a test suite that was written by C Pressy that handled it differently
14:51:52 <AnMaster> C.*
14:52:09 <Deewiant> Well, the fact that you can never iterate only once wasn't exactly expected :-P
14:52:11 <fizzie> Pressey*
14:52:53 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: ah, okay. 2a*k$ is correct, because y pushes 9 cells, 5 vectors, 2 cells, size of stack stacks and list of sizes of stack stacks.
14:53:12 <lifthrasiir> in befunge-98 there are 9+5*2+2=21 cells before size of stack stacks so that should be 2a*k$
14:53:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so it was correct in new scheme?
14:53:20 <lifthrasiir> yes
14:53:24 <AnMaster> mhm
14:53:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, right
14:54:13 <lifthrasiir> (i think i have to learn arithmetic again... :S)
14:54:31 <AnMaster> heh
14:55:01 <lifthrasiir> i got confused when i miscounted that number of cells to be 22, not 21
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14:58:47 * oklopol_ suddenly realizes he has another computer
15:03:07 <AnMaster> oklopol_, huh?
15:04:17 <oklopol_> <- this computer
15:04:23 <oklopol_> my laptop brokered
15:04:30 <AnMaster> ah
15:04:32 <AnMaster> ouch
15:04:59 <oklopol_> well i had access to a computer anyway, just couldn't irc that much
15:05:34 <oklopol_> this keyboard is kinda cool, it's been on the floor for about half a year, and i recently spilled a cup of coffee on it
15:05:36 <oklopol_> kinda sticky
15:05:53 <oklopol_> kinda nice
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16:59:32 <ehird> http://www.kdsusa.com/K2626mdhwb.asp
17:00:11 <ehird> drooleritious
17:05:00 <ehird> hmm the pixel pitch is higher than this display
17:09:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw, I don't know when you plan to update the mycology result page next, but locally efunge passes mycology now. It has a known bug with k over k, but so does CCBI
17:09:51 <AnMaster> GOOD: i works in text mode
17:09:51 <AnMaster> Opening mycotmp0.tmp... failed.
17:09:51 <AnMaster> Trying to write to it with o...
17:09:51 <AnMaster> UNDEF: writing to mycotmp0.tmp with o failed: can't test i in binary mode
17:09:52 <AnMaster> um
17:09:55 <AnMaster> that looks odd
17:10:08 <Deewiant> I maintain that CCBI's behaviour is not a bug
17:10:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, i is implemented but o isn't (and y says that correctly)
17:10:29 <AnMaster> the i/o related output seems kind of odd...
17:10:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, which is why that isn't BAD.
17:10:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the reason why it can't test o is not the right one though...
17:10:46 <Deewiant> I couldn't be bothered to fix it properly so that it'd say 'UNDEF: o is not implemented' instead.
17:10:50 <AnMaster> ah
17:10:50 <AnMaster> ok
17:10:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes it is.
17:11:03 <Deewiant> It tries o and fails, and then it checks if it's supposed to work or not.
17:11:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it still hard to insert extra code into mycology or?
17:11:24 <AnMaster> didn't you say you made that easier using { to set storage offset or something
17:11:25 <Deewiant> That area is trickier than most since it's right next to where mycorand.bf is loaded
17:11:34 <AnMaster> ah right
17:11:44 <Deewiant> I don't think I can assume that {} work at that point either :-P
17:12:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can, you test that before you test y
17:12:10 <Deewiant> But it's not fatal if it fails
17:12:14 <AnMaster> oh ok
17:12:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it isn't fatal you can't assume it anywhere in mycology can you?
17:12:42 <Deewiant> They're only needed for fingerprints and I explicitly say somewhere that fingerprints shouldn't be tested until the core works
17:13:00 <Deewiant> What are you doing implementing fingerprints into a broken interpreter anyway? :-P
17:13:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it passes mycology, it can't be broken then can it? ;P
17:13:58 <Deewiant> Wasn't directed at you, just a hypothetical
17:14:13 <AnMaster> NULL, MODU, ROMA, CPLI and FIXP are implemented in efunge
17:14:22 <AnMaster> also yes it also have the bounds bug
17:14:43 <AnMaster> and I'm currently working on it in cfunge, should have more time today
17:16:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw efunge defines Erlang as it's host env. This is because erlang will set/change certain environment variables, such as $PATH
17:17:15 <AnMaster> it is impossible to work around that.
17:17:19 <AnMaster> it is documented in the README.
17:19:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example, on my system these are the changes made by the erlang runtime: http://rafb.net/p/DCezyl46.html
17:22:54 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:30:27 <Deewiant> All right, fixed the Hello! example on the DOBELA page and my interpreter runs it correctly \o/
17:32:57 <FireFly> \o/
17:33:20 <Deewiant> 3792 bytes, I wonder if I can put the whole thing in 4 Kio
17:33:47 <Deewiant> Probably not, but 5 should be doable :-)
17:40:12 <ehird> hey AnMaster, i just realised what gfx card i have in here
17:40:13 <ehird> ATI Radeon X1600
17:40:17 * ehird watches AnMaster's seizure
17:42:37 <Deewiant> I have an X1400 Mobility on my laptop
17:43:26 <AnMaster> ehird, how well does it work under Linux when doing OpenGL heavy stuff?
17:43:27 <ehird> i shall be getting a Radeon 4870 in this new box if everything goes to plan
17:43:38 <ehird> AnMaster: well, I haven't tried, but compiz works fine with it
17:44:23 <Deewiant> I have a 4870 in my current machine
17:44:27 <Deewiant> No hardware acceleration \o/
17:44:30 <ehird> Deewiant: what video mem/
17:44:32 <Deewiant> But, sauna ->
17:44:37 <Deewiant> ehird: 1 GB
17:44:40 <Deewiant> ->
17:44:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking more about 3D games. For example Flightgear is so opengl heavy it has caused bugs to show up in certain nvidia driver versions too, some developer called it an opengl testsuite as a joke iirc
17:44:42 <ehird> i was going for '2 GB ATI Radeon 4870 X2 PCI-Express x16 GDDR5'
17:44:54 <ehird> AnMaster: I can try glxgears if you want.
17:45:00 <ehird> ;-)
17:45:07 <AnMaster> ehird, that usually works okish
17:45:13 <ehird> That was a joke
17:45:17 <AnMaster> oh ok
17:45:30 <AnMaster> 2 GB video memory heh
17:45:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, why not.
17:45:49 * AnMaster remembers when 32 MB was a lot of video memory
17:46:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I bet this machine could run Crysis.
17:46:06 <AnMaster> Crysis?
17:46:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it's an fps whose large system requirements are a meme
17:46:29 <AnMaster> ah ok
17:46:57 <ehird> Minimum system requirements
17:46:57 <ehird> from Crytek and EA
17:46:58 <ehird> OS - Windows XP or Windows Vista
17:47:01 <ehird> Processor - 2.8 GHz or faster (XP) or 3.2 GHz or faster* (Vista)
17:47:02 <ehird> Memory - 1.0 GB RAM (XP) or 1.5 GB RAM (Vista)
17:47:04 <ehird> Video Card -256 MB**
17:47:06 <ehird> Hard Drive - 12GB
17:47:09 <ehird> and that's just the minimum
17:47:12 <ehird> Recommended System Requirements
17:47:12 <ehird> from Crytek and EA
17:47:15 <ehird> OS - Windows XP / Vista
17:47:16 <ehird> Processor - Intel Core 2 DUO @ 2.2GHz or AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+
17:47:18 <ehird> Memory - 2.0 GB RAM
17:47:21 <ehird> GPU - NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS/640 or similar
17:48:01 <AnMaster> interesting how Vista needs a lot more for CPU and memory...
17:48:09 <AnMaster> btw what is the * and ** there?
17:48:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Er, footnote thingies
17:48:33 <AnMaster> ehird, duh, I meant what does the footnotes say...
17:48:35 <ehird> * Supported Processors: Intel Pentium 4 2.8 GHz (3.2 GHz for Vista) or faster, Intel Core 2.0 GHz (2.2 GHz for Vista) or faster, AMD Athlon 2800+ (3200+ for Vista) or faster.
17:48:36 <ehird> ** Supported chipsets: NVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT or greater; ATI Radeon 9800 Pro (Radeon X800 Pro for Vista) or greater. Laptop versions of these chipsets may work but are not supported. Integrated chipsets are not supported. Updates to your video and sound card drivers may be required.
17:48:38 <AnMaster> right
17:48:47 <AnMaster> do*
17:48:55 <ehird> AnMaster: I think since system76 are in the ubuntu community etc there're probably good drivers for the cards
17:49:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hopefully yes
17:49:21 <AnMaster> but they only ship in US and CA remember?
17:49:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I have friends in the u
17:49:30 <ehird> s
17:49:40 <ehird> who could ship it to me
17:49:40 <AnMaster> + then there is the power supply voltage issue
17:49:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I can replace the power supply
17:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, would you trust those friends not to keep it for themselves?
17:50:09 <ehird> AnMaster: You have shitty friends. :-P
17:50:52 * AnMaster refrains from a reply that would lead to another ignore-from-both-side-war
17:50:54 <ehird> I wouldn't be friends with someone who would steal a pc & money from me
17:51:05 <ehird> (shipping money)
17:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume none of your friends is named Nobby then
17:52:22 <AnMaster> ;P
17:52:58 <ehird> That would be a true statement.
17:52:58 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
17:53:24 <AnMaster> ehird, btw those system requirements above, odd that the footnote for video card contains info about sound card drivers...
17:53:41 <ehird> AnMaster: there was another line about the soundcard
17:53:42 <ehird> with a **
17:53:45 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
17:53:45 <AnMaster> ah
17:53:56 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Sparse copy
17:53:58 * ehird asks stuff in the system76 forums
17:55:09 <AnMaster> well those minimum system requirements listed above does seem rather large, but only two are outrageous: XP/Vista for OS, and 12 GB for harddrive.
17:55:32 <AnMaster> the recommended ones seems outrageous too.
17:55:56 <ehird> well, 12gb hd is standard these days
17:56:02 <ehird> i mean, games in 2003 were 5gb
17:56:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well but presumably it means it will use 12 GB, not that it will fit on a 12 GB large harddrive that also contains vista...
17:56:54 <ehird> :D
17:56:57 <ehird> yes
17:57:24 <AnMaster> ehird, you know, I think it would be a good thing to force everyone at EA to work with the demo scene for DOS for a few months, might bring the game size down a bit...
17:57:36 <ehird> I love the demoscene
17:57:58 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeh9VQyP3E ← I can't believe they fit this into 64k in an amiga
17:58:22 <AnMaster> because there are things to optimise stuff that a lot of people don't know. For example the cvs(!) checkout of the full data directory for flightgear is huge. Around 800 MB...
17:58:30 <ehird> lol cvs
17:58:52 <AnMaster> but I managed to save 50 just by re-compressing all the png textures with advpng -z2 and optipng -i0 -o3
17:59:02 * ehird reads the marketing site for the speakers http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/208&cl=roeu,en
17:59:10 <AnMaster> bloated png files is a real issue these days :/
17:59:25 <ehird> s/is/are/
17:59:44 <AnMaster> ehird, hm ok. but what about: the issue of bloated png files is/are a real issue these days :/
17:59:48 <AnMaster> which one to use then
17:59:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it's are
17:59:51 <ehird> er no
17:59:52 <ehird> it's
17:59:57 <ehird> the issue of bloated png files is a real one these days
17:59:57 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:00:02 <AnMaster> right
18:00:10 <ehird> the satellites look like traffic lights
18:00:17 <AnMaster> ehird, there it is singular, but in the other case it is plural...
18:00:19 <ehird> http://www.logitech.com/repository/324/jpg/2325.1.0.jpg
18:00:24 <AnMaster> confusing IMO
18:00:24 <ehird> AnMaster: an issue is one thing
18:00:34 <AnMaster> yes true
18:00:36 <ehird> AnMaster: but in "bloated png files"
18:00:45 <ehird> you're referring to multiple png files being the singular issue
18:00:52 <AnMaster> ehird, it all be so much clear if we used S-Expressions to group it
18:01:04 <ehird> s/\ball/would all/
18:01:10 <ehird> s/clear/clearer/
18:02:15 <AnMaster> (is (issue (bloated (png-files))) (these-days (real issue)))
18:02:29 <AnMaster> or we could just learn lojban instead
18:02:34 <AnMaster> probably easier
18:02:42 <ehird> mi'e .Eli,at.xrd.
18:02:43 <ehird> I think.
18:02:52 <AnMaster> ...or maybe not
18:03:02 <AnMaster> ehird, what does it use , and . for?
18:03:10 <ehird> AnMaster: err, like, breaking and stuff
18:03:11 <ehird> 01 Aug 2007 11:28:46 <ehird`> xu mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u
18:03:19 <AnMaster> also does google translate do lojban
18:03:21 <ehird> I think that's "I say 'my name is Elliott Hird'"
18:03:21 <ehird> and no
18:03:31 <AnMaster> hm how did you work out that line there then?
18:03:36 <AnMaster> asked someone who spoke it?
18:03:44 <ehird> AnMaster: That was from #lojban when I was learning it
18:03:46 <ehird> I've forgotten it all now
18:04:01 <AnMaster> hm strange that names are changed like that
18:04:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Not really; it's just like romanization.
18:04:40 <AnMaster> I mean usually you write a French name in a Swedish or English text in it's original form and so on. Exception being other scripts being transcribed to the Latin charset
18:04:44 <AnMaster> hm
18:04:55 <AnMaster> Hird -> xrd. ?
18:05:02 <ehird> Like: xu mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u
18:05:02 <ehird> Which is: Did I say/Do I say "I am named Elliott Hird"
18:05:03 <ehird> — me
18:05:06 <ehird> AnMaster: x is like ch in bach
18:05:10 <AnMaster> idea: make a programming language which looks like Lojban.
18:05:11 <ehird> AnMaster: You can't get it precis
18:05:11 <ehird> e
18:05:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you can make a proglang which _is_ lojban
18:05:19 <ehird> it has a yacc parser
18:05:21 <AnMaster> hm
18:05:25 <AnMaster> hehe
18:05:27 <ehird> which is the official grammar
18:05:29 <ehird> iirc
18:05:31 <AnMaster> :D
18:05:35 <ehird> http://www.lojban.org/publications/formal-grammars/grammar.300
18:05:59 <AnMaster> ehird, can a computer actually make sense of that syntax tree you get though?
18:06:14 <ehird> AnMaster: It can't understand it like a human, obviously.
18:06:22 <ehird> [[it has selbri, which are like functions - they take a number of arguments ("places") and you can skip arguments with special words that move to different arguments]] -- me
18:06:35 <ehird> So it's quite a close fit
18:06:59 <ehird> "mee cooskoo lohhoo meeheh Eleaht chrd lehhoo"
18:06:59 <ehird> Where ch is like in Bach.
18:07:01 <ehird> -- me on pronounciation of mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u
18:07:18 <AnMaster> ehird, lets say you tell it in lojban "go ahead", but wouldn't there be many different ways to express that? In English there certainly are, some depending on context.
18:07:30 <ehird> AnMaster: There's always multiple ways to express something.
18:07:37 <ehird> It's impossible to restrict that.
18:07:38 <AnMaster> indeed
18:08:02 <ehird> AnMaster: The language is unambiguous -- but that doesn't mean what you say in it is.
18:08:08 <AnMaster> "sure", "go ahead", "okay" could all mean the same thing to a human (depending on context, in certain contexts they would be rather different)
18:08:53 <AnMaster> I admit I don't know lojban, so maybe it has some way to handle this
18:08:55 <AnMaster> ?
18:09:04 <ehird> Not really.
18:09:09 <ehird> It's still tuned for human expression.
18:09:15 <AnMaster> right
18:09:48 <AnMaster> so we are still far from the computer on Enterprise then :/
18:10:12 <ehird> "One of the his first non-programming works—the GNU Manifesto—was a certifiable snore-fest, later adopted by a commercial enterprise, repackaged, and sold on the industrial pharmaceutical market as a sedative for invasive surgery. "
18:10:14 <ehird> - http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Stallman
18:10:59 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, you said x was like ch in bach above, so "Hird" is pronounced like "chird"??
18:11:14 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it's pronounced like herd, but lojban has no equivalent sound.
18:11:17 <ehird> ch is as close as you can get.
18:11:18 <AnMaster> or maybe i mistook the word
18:11:19 <AnMaster> ah
18:11:26 <lament> blowjban
18:11:38 <ehird> lament: you just reached a new low in coherency
18:11:39 <ehird> grat
18:11:40 <ehird> s
18:12:26 <AnMaster> ehird, hm.. it made kind of sense in a meta-sense kind of non-sense way
18:12:42 <AnMaster> kind of like the description for the last sqrt(-garfield)
18:12:54 <ehird> There should be free pacemaker software like corebios
18:13:00 <ehird> Become an early adopter!
18:13:00 <AnMaster> same sort of meta-sense I mean
18:13:09 <ehird> And, er, a "late" adopter.
18:13:13 * ehird *instant rimshot*
18:13:19 <AnMaster> ehird, to get back to x: is there a strict connection between spelling and pronouncing then in lojban?
18:13:24 <ehird> AnMaster: yes
18:13:31 <AnMaster> because I think that is why we still don't use such languages
18:13:33 <ehird> all letters are pronounced in exactly one way
18:13:37 <AnMaster> sure it is easier to learn
18:13:48 <AnMaster> but it makes the language a bit boring kind of
18:13:53 <AnMaster> for many people
18:14:15 <AnMaster> you need some quirks to make it feel like a real language. Otherwise it just feels very artificial
18:14:40 <ehird> oh god, I read 'colorforth.com update. SeaForth is dead. Chuck Moore is back.'
18:14:44 <ehird> as 'Chuck Moore is dead'
18:14:47 <ehird> and I died a little insid
18:14:47 <ehird> e
18:14:49 <AnMaster> err
18:14:52 <ehird> http://colorforth.com/
18:15:00 <AnMaster> I read "chuck moore" as "chuck norris"
18:15:01 <AnMaster> oh my
18:15:03 <ehird> :-D
18:15:09 <ehird> chuck norris codes forth with his bible
18:15:23 <ehird> i lov ehow he looks like he was just in a fight in this pic: http://colorforth.com/chuck.jpg
18:15:25 <AnMaster> hm, soundforth?
18:15:30 <AnMaster> not sure how
18:15:36 <AnMaster> but the name sounds interesting
18:15:40 <ehird> heh
18:15:48 <ehird> 4 dimensional forth
18:15:51 <ehird> AnMaster: ooh!
18:15:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you could have touchforth too...
18:15:55 <ehird> a 4-d funge
18:15:58 <ehird> which uses sound as the fourth d
18:16:03 <ehird> to represent it that is
18:16:13 <AnMaster> hm... fourth d?
18:16:19 <AnMaster> ah
18:16:27 <AnMaster> I read that as "forth d"
18:16:33 <ehird> XD
18:16:49 <AnMaster> with the u added it makes sense indeed
18:17:26 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you encode it in sound? And how would you sync the ASCII file with this signal?
18:17:45 <ehird> AnMaster: ask oklopol_, he was writing a 4d pong where fourth d = sound
18:17:57 <AnMaster> trefunge uses form feed to increment the z dimension...
18:18:10 <AnMaster> (you probably know this)
18:18:11 <AnMaster> hm
18:18:54 <AnMaster> oklopol_, this 4D-with-sound pong sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on what this wound mean in practise?
18:19:17 <AnMaster> ehird, was this recently or?
18:19:25 <ehird> AnMaster: like ... early mid 2008?
18:19:29 <AnMaster> ah ok
18:19:38 <lament> how about 8D pong, with sound and taste
18:19:54 <ehird> 6D
18:20:01 <ehird> all of your senses. psychics only
18:20:14 <AnMaster> heh
18:21:55 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you said your computer was almost silent?
18:22:04 <ehird> AnMaster: generally, yes
18:22:15 <ehird> probably not for you and your mega ears
18:22:47 <AnMaster> ehird, at what sort of usage does it's fans turn on?
18:23:04 <AnMaster> I mean, compiling a small app? Compiling a large app? 3D games?
18:23:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Compiling generally makes the fans run a lil', but not too noticable.
18:23:34 <ehird> It's hard to get the fans to go high -- I've only had them on full when it measured wrong and put them on full blast by mistake.
18:23:40 <Deewiant> ehird: Those two Radeon X2s will make it sound like a space rocket
18:23:48 <ehird> Deewiant: What, all the time?
18:23:54 <ehird> Also, I'm talking about my current rig
18:24:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the best way would be to have the computer in one room then a terminal in a separate room
18:24:07 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, all the time.
18:24:12 <ehird> Deewiant: o_O Why?
18:24:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Lisp Machines did that.
18:24:31 <Deewiant> They're not exactly known as very quiet cards. :-P
18:24:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen some laptops that are silent mostly when you use them, but run fan at full speed when you go compiling or run a simulation or such, and even with the fans on it runs very hot then..
18:25:02 <ehird> Deewiant: What actually makes the noise? I'm not a gfx-card-knowledgable kind of person.
18:25:22 <ehird> But that sounds sucky, if they're gonna be loud all the time I'll have to ditch them :-(
18:25:28 <AnMaster> an apple macbook (non-pro) did this to me about half a year ago, not the last model or such even back then...
18:25:46 <Deewiant> ehird: Fans.
18:26:00 <ehird> Deewiant: And why does it need to run these fans all the time?
18:26:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also seeking harddrives (some models)
18:26:04 <AnMaster> but fans are worse yes
18:26:04 <Deewiant> ehird: It runs at around 60 degrees when idle, with the fans on.
18:26:12 <ehird> Deewiant: what the fuck.
18:26:15 <ehird> Sounds shite.
18:26:18 <ehird> Err.
18:26:21 <ehird> Do you mean f or c
18:26:38 <Deewiant> Or maybe I'm confusing the number with power usage in watts, actually
18:26:42 <ehird> heh
18:26:47 <Deewiant> I'll have to check
18:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, my GPU came in two editions, one with fan and one without, sadly the one without was out of stock and I needed a replacement the same day (my old geforce 3 had finally given up. R.I.P.)
18:27:02 <Deewiant> And for the record I never use Fahrenheit.
18:27:30 <ehird> 60c is just ridiculous
18:27:32 <Deewiant> ehird: No, I was right, at least one review says 58 degrees when idle (22 db)
18:27:38 <Deewiant> 70-75 when active
18:27:42 <ehird> Deewiant: wait, 22 db? Am I fucking hearing you right?
18:27:46 <ehird> That's fucking ridiculous.
18:27:47 <AnMaster> geforce 7600 btw, with the more extreme cards I assume it would be hard to make a fan-less edition
18:27:48 <Deewiant> ehird: When idle.
18:27:48 <ehird> Good god.
18:27:51 <Deewiant> ehird: When active, 40ish.
18:28:06 <Deewiant> And drawing about 200 Watts.
18:28:07 <AnMaster> ehird, how hot is the CPU in your mac btw?
18:28:08 <ehird> Deewiant: I should just buy a fan and put it on full right next to my ears.
18:28:09 <AnMaster> just wondering
18:28:16 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know I've never touched it :-P
18:28:19 <Deewiant> ehird: Oh, and btw. This wasn't an X2.
18:28:24 <ehird> Deewiant: what was it
18:28:28 <Deewiant> A plain HD 4870.
18:28:31 <Deewiant> Like mine.
18:28:32 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc macs have sensors, I even remember seeing some app on OS X showing it in a nice way
18:28:36 <AnMaster> forgot the program name
18:28:47 <AnMaster> it worked when I tried it on that macbook at least...
18:28:48 <Deewiant> ehird: The X2s will be worse, of course. Don't know by how much, though.
18:28:49 <ehird> Deewiant: so why do people buy these things...
18:29:08 <Deewiant> ehird: People who buy the latest and greatest graphics cards aren't generally looking for silent systems :-P
18:29:14 <ehird> Harumph.
18:29:32 <ehird> Deewiant: the lowest end this comes with is a 512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3
18:29:32 <AnMaster> ehird, speed, price, low noise level, choose two.
18:29:34 <Deewiant> I'm satisfied with the quietness of mine
18:29:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Speed & low noise level. What's the price? :-)
18:30:04 <Deewiant> My current machine makes less than half the noise of the previous one :-P
18:30:23 <Deewiant> I did rip out the stock HD 4870 cooler though
18:31:14 <ehird> Deewiant: Can you watercool these things? ;-)
18:31:21 <Deewiant> I guess, why not
18:31:27 <ehird> I am so not going to try that.
18:31:29 <Deewiant> I've never messed with non-air-cooling
18:31:39 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:31:41 <AnMaster> ehird, cost of whatever two rooms cost around where you live + one of those fancy terminal extender things from blackbox (seen in ads, with happy customers talking about how much better it is not having to have dust collecting computers in clean rooms or whatever, and "contact for price") + noisy computer + monitor + keyboard + mouse
18:32:07 <ehird> AnMaster: lulz
18:32:24 <AnMaster> a CD drive at the same place as the terminal might be useful too, in case you are lazy it would be a requirement even
18:32:36 <AnMaster> (depending on how often you use CDs)
18:33:19 <Deewiant> Just use a pneumatic tube system to transport the CD to the drive
18:33:29 <ehird> Deewiant: how loud would a '512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3' be
18:33:37 <Deewiant> ehird: Beats me, google for reviews
18:33:39 <AnMaster> ehird, something like that listed on http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Results.aspx/KVM/n-4294964384/p-0 maybe
18:33:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Bah :-)
18:33:59 <Deewiant> ehird: I only know about stuff I've considered buying :-P
18:34:06 <AnMaster> price doesn't seem _too_ bad in fact..
18:34:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Wish you hadn't told me this, now I'm out of ideas :D
18:35:00 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: enormous external headsink. Imagine this: an external 3 kg headsink on the top of the computer case...
18:35:11 <AnMaster> passive air cooling
18:35:12 <AnMaster> :D
18:35:24 <ehird> I wonder why watercooling never comes standard
18:35:25 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, I decided early on that I'd get approximately the best gfx card
18:35:37 <Deewiant> So I only really looked at the 4870 and the GeForce GTX 260/280
18:35:50 <AnMaster> ehird, because when things go bad they go really bad. That may be why water cooling is not very popular.
18:35:53 <Deewiant> And the former was 100€ or so cheaper so it was an easy decision :-P
18:35:56 <AnMaster> I may be wrong though...
18:36:03 <ehird> Deewiant: Yar, it's just that one airplane-noised computer was enough for a lifetime for me.
18:36:35 <Deewiant> ehird: I've had a lot of those, I think my current one is simultaneously the quietest and most powerful machine I've ever had, by far :-)
18:36:43 <AnMaster> I mean a failed fan is much less of a problem, computer will detect that it is overheating and then shut itself off at some point. A lot of modern computers do that at least.
18:36:59 <ehird> Deewiant: Got a microphone with good enough quality to give an accurate picture of the loudness? :P
18:37:01 <AnMaster> handled by mobo/bios or such
18:37:12 <Deewiant> ehird: No microphone at all, sorry
18:37:29 <ehird> Deep lake water cooling uses cold water pumped from the bottom of a lake as a heat sink for climate control systems^W^W^Wcomputers.
18:37:30 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_lake_water_cooling
18:37:38 <AnMaster> that sounds...
18:38:22 <AnMaster> ehird, interesting, but is it used for computers? yet?
18:38:26 <ehird> AnMaster: No. :-P
18:38:30 <AnMaster> oh
18:38:31 <Deewiant> ehird: I can't hear it at all when I've got earphones+music on, unless I explicitly try to listen for it
18:38:42 <ehird> Yes, well, I don't do headphones [as yesterday]
18:39:01 <Deewiant> You broke them, or what? ;-)
18:39:19 <ehird> Deewiant: can't think properly with them
18:39:59 <Deewiant> I tend to just turn sounds off and keep them on :-P
18:40:14 <Deewiant> If I find myself needing extra-effective thinking, that is
18:40:23 <AnMaster> I can actually hear the fans in my computer even with ear protectors (or whatever the name was). Though the ear protectors do help reduce it to a acceptable level...
18:40:35 <AnMaster> an*
18:40:57 <ehird> Bah, computers suck.
18:41:42 <Deewiant> Hmm, earphones refer specifically to earbuds, I didn't mean those
18:41:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about headphones, with no sound playing my headphones hardly reduce outside noise at all. But your does?
18:42:03 <Deewiant> Well, a bit, since they're circumaural
18:42:10 <Deewiant> Not much though
18:42:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, earbuds? is that before they become earflowers???
18:42:18 <Deewiant> :-D
18:42:26 <Deewiant> Haha, never even realized that
18:42:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/IPod_Earbuds.JPG
18:44:30 <AnMaster> hm... when I click that link I get a message from konq saying "Tjänsten "/home/anmaster/.local/share/applications/gimp.desktop" är felaktig.", weird..
18:44:40 <AnMaster> copy pasting url works
18:44:42 <Deewiant> Tjänst?
18:44:45 <AnMaster> service
18:44:50 <Deewiant> Right, I knew that.
18:44:56 <AnMaster> why did you ask then?
18:45:00 <AnMaster> :P
18:45:01 <Deewiant> I don't know.
18:45:02 <Deewiant> :-P
18:45:05 <AnMaster> k
18:45:13 <Deewiant> I didn't know it in time.
18:45:21 <AnMaster> anyway about that pic... aha, those yeah
18:45:31 <AnMaster> never heard the name "earbuds" for them before
18:45:40 <Deewiant> What else?
18:45:49 <AnMaster> never heard a English name I think
18:45:51 <AnMaster> for them
18:45:56 <Deewiant> :-)
18:46:15 <AnMaster> anyway, "earbuds" always fall out of my ears...
18:46:16 <Deewiant> http://www.redtower.hu/kepek/upload/2008-09/sennheiser_hd555.jpg is what I've got
18:46:21 <AnMaster> very irritating
18:46:23 <ehird> earbuds or earphones
18:46:29 <ehird> AnMaster: you didn't put them in deep enough
18:46:36 <ehird> if you're not getting uncomfortable ear damage they'll fall out
18:46:47 <Deewiant> I get uncomfortable ear damage and they still fall out
18:46:48 <AnMaster> oh right
18:46:51 <ehird> Deewiant: I have ones pretty like that except more shit
18:47:02 <Deewiant> :-P
18:47:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that explains it, I tried to not cause damage to myself I guess.
18:47:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, AKG 240 Studio are my headphones, google for them
18:47:47 <ehird> discontinued :D
18:47:49 <AnMaster> yep
18:47:50 <ehird> http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,252,pid,252,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html
18:47:51 <AnMaster> I know
18:47:59 <ehird> they look funny
18:48:12 <AnMaster> how do you mean?
18:48:16 <ehird> My ears are too small for headphones
18:48:16 <ehird> :-D
18:48:18 <Deewiant> They seem a bit small: are those circumaural or supra-aural?
18:48:27 <AnMaster> the url looks funny I'd say, but the actual headphones? no
18:48:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I would answer if I knew what "circumaural" or "supra-aural" meant...
18:49:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "Around ear" or "on top of ear"
18:49:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, diameter for the round areas is approx. 10 cm
18:49:35 <Deewiant> I.e. does your entire ear fit inside them
18:50:21 <Deewiant> I guess that'd make them circumaural
18:50:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is outer diameter of the padded area. inner diameter is ~6.5 cm
18:50:39 <AnMaster> slightly more, 6.75 probably
18:51:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway they are comfortable and the sound is high quality, which is what I care about
18:52:19 <AnMaster> and it seems to fit just around my ear
18:52:33 <Judofyr> I'm quite satisfied with Grado Labs SR60
18:52:35 <AnMaster> (just checked)
18:54:39 <AnMaster> btw, anyone remember that google shell thingy?
18:55:25 <AnMaster> no?
18:57:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ehird ?
18:57:38 <ehird> What
18:57:46 <AnMaster> ehird, remember that google shell thingy?
18:57:49 <ehird> What
18:57:54 <AnMaster> guess not
18:57:56 <AnMaster> http://goosh.org/
18:58:08