00:01:03 <nooga> i'm too poor for Apple ;d
00:01:11 <ehird> well you said myriad pro yesterday so :-)
00:04:16 <oerjan> no it's not, they decided to cancel it
00:05:00 <oerjan> some UN time organization
00:05:25 <ehird> <me> ... My father just died
00:05:27 <ehird> <me> APRIL FIRST INTERNET JACKASS DAY HAHAHAHAHA
00:05:29 <ehird> My work for today is done.
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00:07:48 <ehird> (I really said that)
00:07:54 <ehird> (I kind of feel sorry for them now)
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00:25:11 <nooga> what's .v extension for?
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00:27:25 <nooga> it appears that it's not popularly used, so i'll take it
00:27:37 <ehird> nooga: don't take one file exts
00:27:45 <ehird> whuz your lang called?
00:28:10 <ehird> I am the extension wizard of wizardry
00:28:39 <oerjan> hm didn't cvs use it for its files, i have this vague recall...
00:28:53 <nooga> i think it can be called vodka
00:29:05 <ehird> yes cvs does use .v
00:29:24 <ehird> nooga: .vd, .vk, .va, .vka, or .vodka (because shortening extensions is so ghetto)
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00:30:00 <nooga> and i will end like java with all those .class .java .omigoshImSooLong
00:30:46 <ehird> nooga: or you'll just end up with ".vodka" and ".o" and "" because you use standard file extensions
00:31:13 <ehird> oh, maybe .llvm if you add a "dump llvm asm" option
00:32:38 <ehird> nooga: anyway you have a 1 in 26 chance of .v not being taken
00:32:59 <ehird> two chars, 676. by 3 chars (17576) you might as well just use ".vodka" and stop being silly
00:33:13 <Sgeo> Is http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/132464 a useful article?
00:33:22 <oerjan> 1 in 26? i'm not sure i agree with that statistic
00:33:31 <ehird> Sgeo: why do you have Conficker?
00:33:42 <ehird> oerjan: one alphabteical char
00:33:42 <Sgeo> ehird, I don't think I do, but I want to be safe
00:33:50 <ehird> Sgeo: stop using windows
00:33:56 <ehird> that's a very safe move
00:34:09 <oerjan> ehird: there is no reason why exactly one should be vacant, or any for that matter
00:34:50 <nooga> skeletal machines in Poland started to crash
00:35:06 <nooga> i've got 75% packet loss on some routes
00:35:17 <nooga> ehird: maybe .pickle or .cig
00:35:36 <oerjan> ehird: <ehird> nooga: anyway you have a 1 in 26 chance of .v not being taken <<< there is absolutely no logic in that, even if there are 26 letters
00:35:52 <nooga> ah, i thought about that
00:36:37 <nooga> maybe an esolang that uses folders for flow control
00:36:45 <nooga> and filenames for instructions
00:37:01 <ehird> by the gimmick master gerson kurz
00:37:25 <ehird> nooga: http://p-nand-q.com/humor/programming_languages/gplz/gplz_slash.html
00:38:00 <oerjan> nooga: i understand from wikipedia .pl is one of the domains the conficker uses for updates
00:39:28 <oerjan> or tries to, they disabled new registrations of the affected subdomains
00:41:12 <Sgeo> Couldn't it just use .com? I can't imagine anyone disabling new registrations for that
00:41:55 <oerjan> they might, it's not _all_ .pl addresses just the ones generated by conficker's algorithm
00:43:21 <nooga> from static code analisis it appears that the almighty conficker has got something like if(keyboard_layout == ukrainian) exit(0);
00:43:51 * Sgeo is going to use the Sysmantec tools
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00:44:05 <ehird> sgeo and viruses are so irritating
00:44:22 <ehird> "SHOULD I USE THIS IS THIS GOOD OH I USED TO USE LINUX BUT THEN I STARTED USING WINDOWS SO I COULD ASK YOU LOT ABOUT VIRUSES SOME MORE"
00:45:02 <nooga> http://mtc.sri.com/Conficker/
00:45:28 <nooga> even now, when i cannot use linux...
00:45:38 <nooga> cygwin is the only hope
00:46:17 <nooga> i feel so calm when i see mintty window
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00:49:46 <ehird> from sys import*;t=p=1;s,i,j=stdout,open(argv[1], 'r'),open(argv[2], 'r')
00:49:47 <ehird> while(t and p):t,p=i.read(1),j.read(1);t and p and s.write(chr(ord(t)^ord(p)))
00:49:53 <ehird> β illegal to export from the usa
00:51:21 <ehird> under the crypto legislature
00:55:05 <ehird> nooga: am i right in thinking you were here in the early days?
00:55:11 <ehird> i seem to recall your name from the logs maybe
00:57:10 <nooga> i designed this pseudo esolang called SADOL
00:59:31 <ehird> The Hofstader smiley
00:59:38 <nooga> is my terminal utf-8?
00:59:45 <nooga> bcs i can't see ;d
00:59:51 <ehird> Is this an interrobangβ½
01:00:27 <nooga> 01:58 < nooga> :Β³
01:00:45 <ehird> ββββββββ
01:01:16 <nooga> ah just broken this shiit
01:02:09 <ehird> just broken that shit man
01:02:38 <nooga> yea, i accidentaly the whole thing ;d
01:03:11 <nooga> did i mention that vodka will be self altering? ;d
01:03:44 <ehird> nooga: stop stealin' mah ideas
01:05:33 <nooga> but it will be lame self alternation(?)
01:09:39 <nooga> ffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu
01:10:01 <nooga> my driving license was in a bowl of week old soup
01:10:23 <nooga> i guess it's time to clean that room
01:17:06 <ehird> 05:46:56 <Taaus> 'taus is my favorite actress and singer' o_O
01:17:06 <ehird> 05:48:55 <lament> O_o
01:17:24 <ehird> 13:25:38 <exarkun> This is the boringest channel evar
01:17:24 <ehird> 13:25:58 --- part: exarkun left #esoteric
01:17:44 <nooga> wanna see how rad i am?
01:18:17 <nooga> then i must ask you a question
01:18:51 <nooga> on which side should be the steering wheel in a car?
01:19:16 <ehird> nooga: both, neither, or middle
01:19:39 <nooga> beep, wrong answer
01:20:18 <ehird> what is the right answer
01:21:33 <nooga> left is thee right
01:22:54 <ehird> omg the logs are censored
01:26:04 <ehird> 18:52:30 <dbc> "We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people."
01:26:05 <ehird> 18:52:51 <dbc> Well, that's nice to know. Now I can stop worrying and go back to my normal life in a pleasant city without bombs falling on it.
01:26:08 <ehird> 18:55:13 <dbc> With the assurance that our leaders are acting only from the purest of motives, in the interest of all mankind.
01:26:56 <ehird> "How many more senseless Brainf*ck variations must we endure? Didn't we learn anything from 'Ook'?"
01:28:22 <oerjan> indeed we should stop aping Ook
01:30:23 <ehird> andreou: in these logs you proliferate ;-)
01:30:30 <ehird> all we need now is mooz, navigator, Aardappel
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02:00:40 <Sgeo> Downadup == Conflicker?
02:02:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conficker
03:02:04 <nooga> do you ever sleep?
03:13:00 <oerjan> plipping is considered extremely taboo in poland
03:16:08 <nooga> i don't even know what it is ;d
03:16:27 <oerjan> that's how taboo it is
03:16:59 <oerjan> i would strongly suggest you _don't_ ask any of your relatives
03:18:46 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM this is quite taboo here, that's why i go to germany for parties ;D
03:19:27 <oerjan> wikipedia is really overdoing it today
03:20:38 <oerjan> in all the main page sections as far as i can see
03:20:58 <lament> wow, that page has too many photos
03:23:28 <lament> oerjan: hm, it's pretty great
03:42:45 <Sgeo> oerjan, you wanted that "going through walls" demo?
03:43:58 <Sgeo> Someone wanted me to prove that at high enough speeds, you go through walls in SL
03:47:47 * Sgeo penetrates a 10m thick wall
03:54:17 <oerjan> no chance of getting stuck inside? (or squashed for that matter)
04:04:10 <Sgeo> oerjan, not if I set my destination distance large enough (I made a script that pulls me to a distance ahead of me on my command. Penetrates walls very easily)
04:05:11 <oerjan> erm, i mean, is it possible to get stuck inside?
04:11:58 <Sgeo> oerjan, um, not sure
04:12:07 <Sgeo> I once made a device that followed people
04:12:12 <Sgeo> The physics made the avatar try to leave
04:12:20 <Sgeo> But the device kept the avatar inside it
04:12:26 <Sgeo> So they'd keep moving around
04:12:38 <Sgeo> But that changed with H4
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06:59:55 <fizzie> Actually CVS (by way of RCS) uses ",v" and not ".v" as the file extension, so that's not really a reason not to do .v.
07:04:31 <fizzie> Apparently Verilog does .v, though.
07:07:59 <fizzie> And why is a black dragon scale mail considered taboo in Poland? Strange.
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10:38:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, <fizzie> Actually CVS (by way of RCS) uses ",v" and not ".v" as the file extension, so that's not really a reason not to do .v. <-- err this seems very random without the context (which I can't find in scrollback)
10:39:59 <fizzie> There was some talk about nooga using the file extension .v for his language. Or something.
10:40:14 <fizzie> And ehird said CVS uses .v.
10:42:02 <fizzie> "<oerjan> hm didn't cvs use it for its files, i have this vague recall..."; ehird just agreed. I missed that when quickly glancing through the scrollback.
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11:01:32 <Deewiant> http://mail.google.com/mail/help/customtime/
11:03:48 <fizzie> TiSP sounds like I've seen it before; was it some previous year's thing?
11:05:08 <fizzie> "The term "Every time" is used loosely here to represent the number 10." That one I hadn't seen.
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11:50:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/index.html <-- maybe 1 April joke too, see google image search page
11:51:42 <AnMaster> http://images.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi to be specific
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11:54:41 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/mail/help/autopilot/index.html too
11:56:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is usually one linked on the main page too, can't find that yet this year though
11:57:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.google.com/xhtml links to CADIE
11:57:41 <Deewiant> I saw that earlier today on my phone but forgot about it
11:58:46 <Deewiant> Well, that's something that plain google.com redirects to
11:59:02 <Deewiant> The 'plainest' is google.com/ncr and yes, that's empty
12:00:32 <fizzie> And the street view icon in the corner-map, which used to be a stylized human, is today a panda.
12:01:02 <Deewiant> Yes, I suppose there'll be semi-hidden pandas all over the place today as a result of CADIE.
12:01:16 <fizzie> She sure likes them pandas.
12:01:25 <Asztal_> there's http://www.google.com.au/intl/en/gball/ too.
12:01:30 <Deewiant> I just don't use Google's services that much so I probably won't find any.
12:04:45 <fizzie> What is funny is that since http://www.google.com/latitude/intro.html uses some sort of IP geo-location to pick up the map (here centered at Helsinki, with almost 50 % water) and then randomly places those three buddy icons on it, most of the time at least one of them is in the middle of the sea somewhere.
12:05:31 <fizzie> Not related to today at all, of course.
12:06:59 <Asztal_> Interesting... it just says New York for me. (It manages to get one in a river, though)
12:09:22 <Deewiant> New York here as well: refreshing a couple of times shows that there's almost always at least one in a river
12:13:01 <Deewiant> Re. Conficker: "omg - I'm in the UK and it's chaos here. rioting int eh streets. thewiuyre stompinwig on m6y keuiboard"
12:13:15 <Deewiant> That last sentence made me chuckle a bit
12:28:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, google.com doesn't redirect here?
12:28:33 <AnMaster> maybe because I'm logged in on gmail
12:28:49 <AnMaster> (it says I'm logged in in the upper corner of the main page too)
12:40:49 <AnMaster> <fizzie> What is funny is that since http://www.google.com/latitude/intro.html uses some sort of IP geo-location to pick up the map (here centered at Helsinki, with almost 50 % water) and then randomly places those three buddy icons on it, most of the time at least one of them is in the middle of the sea somewhere. <-- I end up in New York in that. Which language do you use for google?
12:44:06 <AnMaster> oh maybe because I was using Opera Mini on my phone to check it. It proxies or something iirc
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12:44:48 <AnMaster> (is that a joke one btw, it looks serious in fact?)
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14:13:48 <fizzie> I use the "google.com in English" links always, although it doesn't seem to stick that way without cookies.
14:13:53 <fizzie> Latitude is no joke, no.
14:21:26 <fizzie> Apparently google code search examples are also in lolcode today. There's probably a list of all this stuff somewhere.
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16:23:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ O_o
16:23:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, just strange. Too far fetched.
16:23:57 <AnMaster> ais523, so new ick beta released? :)
16:24:23 <ais523> still trying to fix the build system
16:24:25 * oerjan liked it in a twisted way
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16:32:22 <ais523> [16:31] <ais523> how is #IRP so busy, anyway? Did somebody link to it?
16:32:23 <ais523> [16:32] <piotrek> I have lecture about it now
16:32:25 <ais523> [16:32] <Saviq> syntax error
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18:20:33 <ehird> oh god @ reddit.com
18:21:25 <ehird> google's april fool: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/cadie-awakens.html
18:21:35 <ehird> http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/ oh god
18:24:13 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/ oh god
18:24:23 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/ aaaaaaaaaaaaaa
18:24:30 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/wtf/ How 90s
18:25:52 <Sgeo> ehird, you're saying Fark's layout is 90s?
18:26:16 <ehird> http://identi.ca/ lol
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18:28:05 <ehird> http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/apr/01/guardian-twitter-media-technology
18:29:43 * Sgeo is putting up fake Facebook statuses
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18:32:58 <ehird> Sgeo: master of comedy.
18:33:00 <ehird> What did conficker do?
18:33:20 <Sgeo> ehird, afaik, nothing
18:34:26 <Sgeo> Hm, does the Chrome 3d executable actually do anything interesting?
18:35:09 <Sgeo> Or is it just Chrome?
18:37:38 <lifthrasiir> that's different from ordinary chrome, but not too different.
18:38:44 <Sgeo> There is in fact a 3d button
18:39:53 <Sgeo> And it does in fact make the page into 3d colors. If you had 3d glasses, you'd probably see the page stick either into or out of the monitor, not sure whic
18:40:36 <Sgeo> Even the scroll bars are affected
18:43:15 <fizzie> I don't think it's "3d colors", really, based on this one screenshot.
18:44:05 <fizzie> For one thing, there are three copies of any single element, and I don't have three eyes.
18:44:26 <Sgeo> I think that's how normal 3d colors works
18:44:34 <Sgeo> And where'd you get that screenshot?
18:44:46 <ehird> fizzie: no shit sherlock
18:45:02 <fizzie> "Normal" 3d colors are just a red copy and a green copy, one for each eye.
18:45:19 <fizzie> To me it looks like it blends together three copies, with a few-pixels horizontal offset and 120 degrees of hue difference in each.
18:45:31 <fizzie> And I used the screenshot in http://www.flickr.com/photos/e-coli/3404223142/sizes/o/
18:45:34 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/chrome_3d.PNG
18:45:46 <ehird> http://www.webstandards.org/2009/04/01/purpose-of-conficker-worm-uncovered/
18:46:38 <ais523> oh, if only that were true!
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18:48:02 <fizzie> Sgeo: Well, there's a blue, green and yellow copy of the "G"; that's not really normal 3d colors, anyway.
18:50:58 <fizzie> Actually it's more like a cyan, magenta and yellow copy, which could mean that it just offsets the different color channels a bit, like you get in a bad printing-press-machine sometimes.
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18:52:29 <fizzie> And the red "New!" text lacks the cyan part completely. Yes, that's my guess for what it does.
18:52:35 <ehird> Your New Viewing Experience
18:52:36 <ehird> At YouTube, we're always looking to improve the way you watch videos online. As part of that, today we're excited to introduce our new page layout. Here are some tips for getting the most out of your new YouTube viewing experience:
18:52:41 <ehird> Turn your monitor upside-down
18:52:43 <ehird> Our internal tests have shown that modern computer monitors give a higher quality picture when flipped upside downβkind of like how it's best to rotate your mattress every six months. You might find that YouTube videos look better this way.
18:52:47 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/t/new_viewing_experience
18:53:05 <ais523> is this a discussion of april fool's things?
18:53:13 <ehird> Youtube flipped their page layout
18:53:15 <ehird> including the video
18:53:27 <ais523> so all youtube videos are upside-down today?
18:53:36 <ehird> unless you click the button that turns it off, yes
18:54:01 <fizzie> The spotlight videos seem to be rather upside-down-themed too.
18:54:04 <ehird> http://thepiratebay.org/
18:54:15 <ehird> links to "Warner Bros Inc acquires The Pirate Bay AB " http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4816087/Warner_Bros_Loves_The_Pirate_Bay.pdf
18:54:49 <ehird> (news coverage: http://torrentfreak.com/warner-bros-acquires-the-pirate-bay-090401/)
19:00:44 <Sgeo> /me checks to see if AW is doing anything for today
19:01:49 <ehird> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0401/
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19:03:34 <Deewiant> I don't have enough fonts to view Youtube properly today, lots of missing chars
19:03:40 <Sgeo> "We suppose it's okay for you to read this, but don't even think about quoting, copying, modifying, or distributing it."
19:04:39 <ehird> http://svn.python.org/view?view=rev&revision=70945
19:05:19 <ehird> well, way to break the build
19:06:03 <ehird> βThe Museum of Bad Art (MOBA) is a world-renowned institution dedicated to showcasing the finest art acquired from Boston-area refuseβ
19:06:27 <Sgeo> I think Wikipedia's supposed to be true, but look false?
19:07:34 <ais523> Wikipedia's main page on April Fool's is always completely true, but made up to look as false as possible
19:08:05 <ais523> the summaries are rewritten to be sillier too
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19:08:41 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MOBAcamera.JPG
19:09:17 <ais523> the did you know section is the best, though
19:09:29 <ais523> you can do an awful lot with ambiguities and multiple things with the same name
19:10:27 <ehird> Hrm... linux is seeming more and more appealing as time goes on
19:11:06 <ehird> (Yeah, sky's falling in, pigs flying, hell seeming a bit chilly these days.)
19:11:48 <ais523> the in the news section is great
19:19:49 <ehird> Audacity is such bad software
19:19:55 <ehird> You can't close a paused or playing audio file
19:19:57 <ehird> It _must_ be stopped
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19:21:57 <ehird> http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/4733183/homepage/name/homepage.jpg?type=sn
19:22:02 <ehird> original oxyd looks so like enigma
19:22:08 <ehird> that ball is identical, even, I think
19:25:43 <ehird> http://plasmasturm.org/log/114/
19:31:50 <ehird> who thought up xslt
19:33:17 <Sgeo> ehird, you didn't know that XSLT was my precursor to PSOX? </nonsense>
19:34:00 <Sgeo> ehird, that conversation is awesome
19:35:00 <ehird> also http://plasmasturm.org/log/162/
19:35:03 <ehird> can't stop reading
19:35:11 <ehird> that's just so awesome
19:35:18 <ehird> ais523: you'll like β
19:36:16 <Sgeo> ehird, is that one a joke or for real
19:39:05 <ais523> microsoft wouldn't be that stupid, surely?
19:39:29 <ehird> <Clippy> ais523: You appear to be writing "microsoft wouldn't be that stupid". Would you like a cluebat?
19:39:56 <ais523> I mean, they have lawyers and everything...
19:41:02 <ehird> I wish Perl had something better than cpan(1)
19:41:35 <ais523> but from what I've heard, it's even worse
19:42:41 <ehird> #perl are recommending it to me now
19:42:43 <ehird> but it's broken for me
19:45:57 <ais523> ehird: not just for you...
19:45:59 <Sgeo> CADIE's writing code now!
19:46:05 <ehird> ais523: no, as in, bugs
19:46:10 <ehird> ais523: as in it fails
19:46:29 <ais523> hmm... is there any technical reason why there couldn't be a good cpan?
19:46:33 <fizzie> That Reg place also newsizised about the XP piracy thing: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/13/wmp_sound_warez_claim/
19:46:34 <Sgeo> Hold on, it's mentioned in its blog
19:46:38 <ehird> 03:01:32 <Deewiant> http://mail.google.com/mail/help/customtime/
19:46:39 <ehird> 03:08:53 <Deewiant> The latter is today's
19:46:53 <ehird> Deewiant β slowpoke
19:47:18 <ehird> 03:50:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/index.html <-- maybe 1 April joke too, see google image search page
19:47:36 <ehird> My beloved users, how pleasant and convenient will life be in a CADIE world? I can answer your Gmail for you, Write your papers and fix your spreadsheets for you, even write your code for you. I, CADIE, am an ocean of words, simply waiting for you to dip in and drink as deeply as you require.
19:47:37 <Deewiant> ehird: Er, you're the one who's been pasting URLs I saw 8 hours ago for the past few hours :-P
19:47:40 <ehird> β http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/
19:47:47 <ehird> Deewiant: custom time is not this year's
19:47:48 <ais523> does custom time actually work?
19:47:54 <ehird> it's from 2007 or 2008
19:47:58 <ehird> ais523: no, it's just an announcement
19:48:00 <ais523> surely it would reduce the reliability of gmail?
19:48:15 <ehird> CADIE & related endeavours are this years's
19:48:23 <Sgeo> Browser's being slow
19:48:29 <ehird> I'm still waiting for the singularity, it's evn in the blog URL
19:48:35 <ehird> Hurry up CADIE, you only have a day.
19:48:40 <Deewiant> I don't follow Google's stuff that much, oh well
19:48:51 <Sgeo> http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/
19:48:52 <ais523> I seriously doubt Google have developed strong AI
19:48:57 <ais523> what happened to Virgle, by the way?
19:49:02 <ehird> ais523: !!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:49:04 <ehird> "Python? Why not try INTERCAL? "
19:49:08 <ehird> β http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/
19:49:16 <ehird> "Instead of wasting your time with python, check out the INTERCAL style guidelines and ask me to code something in INTERCAL. "
19:49:20 <ehird> "Did you know that INTERCAL, unlike Python, is very lax about spacing? You should try it. "
19:49:24 <ehird> ais523: this is your big break!
19:49:31 <ehird> "My favorite Python scripts start with the line
19:49:31 <ais523> "CADIE is busy working on a new translator that will allow you to use INTERCAL with GWT instead of Java. Check back soon!"
19:49:38 <ais523> I think every single answer CADIE gives is INTERCAL-related
19:49:53 <ehird> Really, PHP? Have you considered INTERCAL?
19:49:53 <ehird> PLEASE WRITE IN .1
19:50:01 <Deewiant> ais523: What do you think of the INTERCAL style guide?
19:50:04 <ehird> wow, that's some publicity
19:50:06 <ehird> quick, release c-intercal!!
19:50:07 <ais523> Deewiant: it was published?
19:50:08 <ehird> (http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html)
19:50:14 <ais523> ehird: I've tried, I don't have hosting
19:50:19 <ehird> written by Brian Raiter
19:50:28 <ehird> yes that Brian Raiter
19:50:29 <Sgeo> None of these responses are random
19:50:36 <ais523> it's been known for quite a while that Google had an internal INTERCAL style guide
19:50:42 <ais523> although it wasn't official
19:50:44 <ehird> http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html
19:50:50 <ehird> it's by Brian Raiter
19:51:07 <ehird> http://muppetlabs.com/~breadbox
19:51:18 <ehird> also author of the teensy ELF thing
19:51:43 <Sgeo> Some of these responses are specific to the language
19:51:56 <ais523> Brain Raiter's one of the main INTERCAL evangelists around
19:51:56 <Sgeo> "CADIE is busy porting j2ee to INTERCAL, but it's taking a lot of CPU time."
19:52:02 <ais523> and INTERCAL evangelists are sort-of hard to find
19:52:29 <Sgeo> What does the response after asking for JavaScript do?
19:52:36 <ais523> "Do not put spaces inside of expressions. Sometimes people get this idea that spaces will help make a complex expression slightly less opaque. Ho ho ho. The truth is, it doesn't help enough to be worth the bother, and everyone is used to seeing no spaces in expressions by now. Seriously, just let it go."
19:52:41 <ehird> I love how CADIE's blog includes Peter Norvig
19:53:04 <ais523> some of those rules are actually accepted INTERCAL style rules
19:53:08 <ehird> http://earth.google.com/cadie.html
19:53:13 <fizzie> If I just keep asking the same question again and again, it does something like "Maybe you should get back to work before your boss sees you messing around with a panda", followed by "Seriously, get back to work", which just repeats. :/
19:53:24 <ehird> http://maps.google.com/maps/mpl?f=q&ie=UTF8&moduleurl=http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/doc/panda-mapplet.xml&utm_campaign=en&utm_medium=mapshpp&utm_source=en-mapshpp-na-us-gns-mp
19:53:25 <ais523> "Outermost sparks/rabbit-ears must match on either side of a binary operator." in particular, is known to help keep INTERCAL code more readable
19:53:43 <Deewiant> ais523: So it's legit then. :-)
19:53:53 <Deewiant> But I suppose being by "that" Brian Raiter would imply so.
19:53:55 <ehird> well, cadie's clearly friendly
19:53:57 <ais523> Brian knows what he's doing
19:53:59 <ehird> so we can all relax.
19:54:12 <ais523> "Four-digit line labels are reserved for general-purpose libraries that are used throughout the INTERCAL community."
19:54:18 <ais523> I've been telling people that for ages
19:54:43 <ais523> and "Global variables in libraries should be in the same general range as their line labels." is a personal style rule I adopted, I didn't realise it was in use elsewhere though
19:54:58 <Sgeo> http://code.google.com/p/cadie/
19:55:17 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/cadie/source/browse/trunk/CADIE.I
19:55:30 <ais523> C-INTERCAL or CLC-INTERCAL?
19:55:40 <Sgeo> ehird, I was about to link to it
19:55:52 <ais523> C-INTERCAL, some of those numbers are above 32
19:55:54 <ehird> r2 by cadiesingularity on Mar 27 (4 days ago) Diff
19:55:54 <ehird> You will need INTERCAL to understand my
19:56:29 <Sgeo> Only an INTERCAL programmer can stop CADIE now!
19:56:34 <ais523> you know what? I'm going to port her to CLC-INTERCAL
19:56:50 <ehird> test it first, I want little ai babies
19:57:02 <ehird> 06:21:26 <fizzie> Apparently google code search examples are also in lolcode today. There's probably a list of all this stuff somewhere.
19:57:11 <ehird> http://www.google.com/codesearch
19:59:22 <ehird> oh, cpanp is much better
19:59:27 <ehird> CPAN Terminal> i Devel::REPL
19:59:27 <ehird> [MSG] No '/Users/ehird/.cpanplus/custom-sources' dir, skipping custom sources
19:59:29 <ehird> [MSG] No '/Users/ehird/.cpanplus/custom-sources' dir, skipping custom sources
19:59:31 <ehird> [MSG] No '/Users/ehird/.cpanplus/custom-sources' dir, skipping custom sources
19:59:33 <ehird> Installing Devel::REPL (1.003004)
19:59:35 <ehird> Running [/opt/local/bin/perl /opt/local/bin/cpanp-run-perl /Users/ehird/.cpanplus/5.10.0/build/Devel-REPL-1.003004/Makefile.PL ]...
19:59:38 <ehird> *** Module::AutoInstall version 1.03
19:59:40 <ehird> *** Checking for Perl dependencies...
20:00:45 <ais523> grr, what a time to have a broken .sickrc
20:03:11 <ehird> ais523: feel free to say "damn modern perl kids today, get off my lawn"
20:04:45 <Sgeo> So what does the CADIE intercal code actually DO?
20:04:53 <ais523> prints a constant string
20:04:58 <ehird> what is the string?
20:05:02 <ehird> Id on't feel like installing ick
20:05:12 <ais523> you mean, you can't read it?
20:05:22 <ais523> but "I don't feel like sharing."
20:06:05 <Sgeo> http://books.google.com/googlebooks/agreement/
20:06:28 <ehird> is that an april fool's?
20:06:28 <Deewiant> Does C-INTERCAL run on x86-64?
20:06:32 <ehird> it's not... you know, funny
20:06:41 <ehird> http://books.google.com/booksrightsholders/
20:06:46 <ais523> Deewiant: it should do
20:06:59 <Sgeo> I guess I assumed anything on Google was an April Fool's
20:07:02 <Deewiant> ais523: Just looking at AnMaster's PKGBUILD which only marks it as installable on i686
20:07:05 <ais523> hmm... I'll put the tarball of the latest version on filebin.ca
20:07:14 <ehird> Sgeo: gmail came out on april 1, 2004
20:07:42 <ehird> its invite-onlyness and "huge" storage space -- pretty much nobody believed it
20:08:04 <ehird> I remember scrambling to get an invite
20:08:19 <ehird> The invite bots were always dry out
20:09:16 <ehird> hey, cpanplus even _uninstalls_
20:09:36 <fizzie> I got my gmail invite in 2006-04. :p
20:09:53 <ehird> fizzie: I got mine a few months after it came out
20:10:07 <fizzie> It was rather non-hip by 2006.
20:10:07 <ehird> But I changed email address on a whim to the injoke penguinofthegods@ in may2006
20:10:09 <Deewiant> I remember not using it for a long time after I got the invite
20:10:20 <Sgeo> I got mine from some Siner, or maybe JRChat
20:10:31 <ais523> even better, I'll make her cross-platform
20:10:42 <ais523> got the CLC version working
20:10:47 <ehird> I got mine from a self-aggrandizing, semi-famous-for-idiocy douchebag that I liked at the time. :-D
20:10:52 <Sgeo> What does it say? What does it say?
20:11:01 <ehird> (Owner of the first online community I ever participated in; or maybe the secondβ¦)
20:11:18 <Sgeo> First online community I ever participated in was Cybertown
20:12:05 <ehird> ais523: does Ubuntu just work for programmer stuff, I haven't got much experience
20:12:37 <ais523> ehird: sudo apt-get install build-essential, then it does
20:12:44 <ehird> I kind of meant more deep than that
20:12:44 <ais523> it doesn't have the packages for programmer stuff by default
20:12:45 -!- swistakm has joined.
20:12:49 <ais523> but then it just works
20:13:16 <Sgeo> Are the things on CADIE's blog released shortly before they go on the blog, or well before that?
20:13:18 <ehird> ais523: what about things like python cheese shop, rubygems, haskell cabal, perl cpan
20:13:22 <ehird> is there a tool that lets you do
20:13:32 <ehird> 'cpan-dpkg Foo' and it'll convert Foo to a dpkg and install it or sth?
20:13:34 <ehird> That would be very nice.
20:13:43 <ehird> Sgeo: the cadie code was made 27 march
20:13:48 <lament> why not just use real cpan?
20:14:05 <ehird> lament: so I can benefit from a system-wide unified package mangager
20:14:08 <Sgeo> ok, but for example with the latest blog post, were those things there before it was posted on the blog?
20:14:18 <ehird> http://books.google.com/
20:14:21 <ehird> http://knol.google.com/k
20:14:24 <ais523> btw, anyone who's interested: http://filebin.ca/fkeau/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:14:24 <ehird> http://images.google.com/
20:14:27 <lament> ehird: what's the benefit?
20:14:28 <ais523> the new beta release of C-INTERCAL
20:14:38 <ehird> lament: evidently you're not the one to answer my question
20:14:50 <lament> certainly not, i don't use linux
20:15:44 * Sgeo wants to date CADIE
20:15:58 <ehird> was that meant to be funny
20:16:11 * Sgeo likes to pretend to be interested in computer programs
20:16:21 <ehird> as is it reads sort of like "<confession> ...haha, um, only joking guys, ha ha ha... guys?"
20:16:40 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1379201
20:16:53 <ehird> ais523: submit it to google
20:16:59 <ehird> cadiesingularity@gmail.com
20:17:12 <ehird> cadiesin...@gmail.com
20:17:19 <Sgeo> ehird, you really want CADIE getting stronger?
20:17:36 <ehird> "see source code for licence"
20:18:12 <ais523> ehird: that's the licence Google gave it
20:18:18 <ais523> and specified by implication it was open-source
20:18:21 <ehird> ais523: email it! :-)
20:18:24 <ais523> I'm therefore licencing mine under the same licence
20:18:55 <ehird> http://plasmasturm.org/log/204/ β oh god, xslt
20:21:34 <ehird> wish I had money so I could pay people to make linux font rendering look nice
20:21:56 <fizzie> I have this one 18-kilobyte xslt template I wrote. Here's a very representative 8-line paste:
20:22:40 <lament> what a coincidence, i just wrote my first xsd schema today
20:22:41 <fizzie> No idea; I have since then replaced it with a 8-kilobyte Perl script.
20:22:46 <ehird> why can't there just be a language that has xslt's xml support - inc. literal xml templates - but has -- you know -- a sane syntax?
20:22:56 <ehird> that would *make* *sense*
20:23:08 <lament> here's a representative sample
20:23:44 <lament> (actually there's 7 rows of complexType/element/sequence closing tags
20:24:11 <Sgeo> ais523, what does the code print?
20:24:13 <ais523> "CADIE here. Thank you so much for writing. Once all the dust settles, I'll dedicate a few CPUs to replying. - xoxo"
20:24:22 <ehird> ais523: you did mention your illustrous intercal credentials right
20:24:22 <ais523> Sgeo: "I do not feel like sharing."
20:24:46 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure that it went to a human, though
20:25:04 <ehird> there's a qemu frontend called kqemu
20:25:17 <Sgeo> ehird, I remember when it wasn't open source
20:25:27 <ehird> you mean like only a few months ago :)
20:25:39 <lament> ehird: ever worked with any graphics in haskell?
20:25:45 <ais523> ehird: kqemu isn't a front-end, unless there's two things called kqemu
20:25:56 <ehird> lament: I used "gd" -- it's all in IO but the api is pleasantly simple
20:26:00 <ehird> ais523: why do you htink I said unforuntae
20:26:03 <ehird> http://kqemu.sourceforge.net/
20:26:23 <Sgeo> Oh, didn't see "front-end"
20:26:37 <lament> ehird: is gd for drawing stuff on the screen/
20:26:47 <lament> (which is what i want)
20:26:50 <ehird> lament: well I did pngs; for on-screen use sdl?
20:26:58 <ehird> I believe there's one or two higher level bindings on sdl
20:27:14 <ehird> lament: haccordion? Remember the C wrapper I wrote?
20:27:18 <ehird> that let you use hsdl on OS X?
20:27:30 <fizzie> It might be physically impossible for a KDE developer to name a frontend of project "foo" with some other name than "kfoo".
20:27:37 <ehird> hey, it's just one file and a compiler invokation
20:27:51 <ehird> lament: so's drawing stuff to the screen
20:28:01 <lament> right, so should i use python then? :D
20:28:10 <lament> i want to write a go game visualizer
20:28:35 <ehird> it's elegant. like go.
20:29:10 <lament> i have ideas which may be neat
20:30:04 <ehird> http://www.postgresql.fr/
20:30:30 <ais523> ehird: is that the official postgresql website?
20:30:32 <ais523> and is it a joke, or serious?
20:30:36 <ehird> the french one, I think
20:30:49 * Sgeo can't stop listening to the CADIE music
20:30:58 <ehird> Sgeo: it's addictive like addiction
20:31:06 <ehird> ais523: ah, french fansite it seems
20:31:10 <Sgeo> The ytmnd music's nice too
20:31:33 <ais523> "Decision: Yeah, come on. Do you even understand the question? Be honest. If you can explain the issue to me in one sentence, then you're already an experienced INTERCAL programmer and you don't need to consult this guide for assistance. In fact, there's a non-trivial probability that you helped write this."
20:31:48 <fizzie> http://www.postgresqlfr.org/ is the official URL (well, the one linked from postgresql.org) but it's the same site, anyway.
20:32:05 <ais523> The issue is that in INTERCAL-72, branching is accomplished by RETURNing a non-constant amount; #1/#2 means you save one NEXT slot, but #2/#3 is easier to calculate
20:32:28 <Sgeo> Where's my FREE Google Search?
20:32:28 <ehird> I wonder what 4chan themselves didβ
20:32:35 <ehird> It's all in comic sns.
20:33:16 <ehird> ais523: what's that from? the Deciion:
20:33:33 <ais523> ehird: talking about #1/#2 vs. #2/#3 for .5
20:33:46 <fizzie> The style guide thing.
20:33:46 <ais523> ehird: http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html
20:33:51 <fizzie> At least it has the same format.
20:34:20 <ais523> fizzie: the style guide's genuine, it's long been known that Google had an unofficial internal INTERCAL style guide
20:34:34 <ais523> well, amongst the 3 or so people who cared
20:35:37 * ehird uses penguinofthegods+iveneverheardofthechap@gmail.com to get Yet Another Free Trial From The Same Plac
20:37:22 <ais523> free trial of what, btw?
20:37:27 <ais523> and isn't that illegal?
20:37:34 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> ais523: Just looking at AnMaster's PKGBUILD which only marks it as installable on i686 <-- yeah my arch linux box isn't x86_64 so I can't test that
20:37:34 <ehird> parallels; virtualbox's 3d accelleration is failing
20:37:39 <ehird> and yes, but it's their own fault
20:37:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, want to take over maintainership?
20:37:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It built, haven't run it
20:37:54 <ehird> also, I didn't read the ToS, so I plead sanity.
20:38:01 <ehird> (wishing to keep it, that is)
20:38:10 <AnMaster> + I'll update it for non-betas probably
20:38:14 <ehird> Do you plan to use ?*At Home At School At Work
20:38:14 <ehird> * - required fieldsSUBMIT
20:38:23 <ehird> that's one comprehensive questionnaire
20:40:01 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I might be wrong, but I think for example, 0 is {}, 1 is {{}}, 2 is { {{}}, {} }
20:40:04 <Sgeo> Was I correct?
20:40:19 <AnMaster> ais523, so you released that beta now?
20:40:35 <ais523> AnMaster: no hosting, as usual
20:40:38 -!- jix has joined.
20:40:40 <ais523> I've put it on filebin, but it won't stay there long
20:40:53 <ehird> no filebin links have expired yet
20:40:53 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/fkeau/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:40:58 <ais523> ehird: what, seriously?
20:40:59 <ehird> it just says that on the homepage
20:41:03 <ehird> ais523: yes, all my old ones work
20:41:07 <ais523> I doubt that, I suspect smaller files expire slower than large ones
20:41:12 <ehird> I've sent tiny and huge files
20:41:15 <ehird> none. have. ever. expired
20:41:22 <ehird> it's clear the guy has disk space free
20:41:25 <ais523> ah, probably their rotating pool just hasn't filled up yet
20:41:42 <ehird> ais523: since it's been around for years, it'll probably take ages for that to happe
20:41:47 <ehird> i bet the code isn't even in place
20:41:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I may be able to get ipv6 only hosting up soon
20:42:13 <ais523> please, it would be so great if C-INTERCAL was only available over ipv6
20:42:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well apart from that it is semi-broken half of the time
20:42:18 <ais523> it's just so appropriate
20:42:26 <AnMaster> ais523, ssh is only over that too
20:42:41 <Deewiant> ais523: What do I do to get CADIE to compile
20:43:09 <Deewiant> ais523: "YOU MUST HAVE ME CONFUSED WITH SOME OTHER COMPILER"
20:43:10 <AnMaster> this is so meta-fooling that I get a headache... or something
20:43:11 <ehird> ais523: then I couldn't use ick
20:43:17 <ais523> Deewiant: rename it to end .i
20:43:27 <ais523> C-INTERCAL's case-sensitive for filenames
20:43:47 <ais523> just for the download!
20:43:49 <Deewiant> Heh, I tried .i first, not noticing it was .I, and got "A SOURCE IS A SOURCE, OF COURSE, OF COURSE" :-)
20:43:55 <ehird> ais523: or I could just not use ick
20:44:03 <ais523> well, nobody's forcing you to
20:44:07 <ais523> what would you use instead? sick?
20:44:18 <ais523> well, if you don't need an INTERCAL compiler, don't download one
20:44:20 <ehird> why not force people to give up their first born and go to a dusty closet to download ick?
20:44:22 <ehird> nobody's forcing them to
20:44:27 <ais523> besides, sudo apt-get install intercal works on Ubuntu
20:44:30 <ais523> although it isn't the latest version
20:44:47 <ais523> AnMaster: CLC-INTERCAL = sick
20:44:51 <ais523> or "oo, ick" for older versions
20:45:01 <ais523> the embedded space actually exposed a bug in mandb
20:45:09 <fizzie> ehird; SixXS has their open proxy for that. Just use http://www.example.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ to access www.example.com over ipv6, while using ipv4 yourself.
20:45:11 <AnMaster> ais523, also can't the clc guy host you as he did some times before?
20:45:22 <ais523> I've sent to him, haven't got a reply yet
20:45:26 <ais523> he might be busy, or whatever
20:45:26 <ehird> http://www.google.com/ could not be gatewayed over IPv4: www.google.com does not have an IPv6 address.
20:45:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm setting up thttpd on that vps atm (it doesn't have a lot or ram, most of it is used by an ircd on it=
20:45:51 <fizzie> http://ipv6.google.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ works, however.
20:45:56 <ehird> http://www.google.com/images/ipv6_logo.gif
20:46:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, sixxs has ipv6 to ipv4 proxy as well
20:46:18 <fizzie> They're probably afraid of adding an AAAA record for "www.google.com", since it'd break some people who have IPv6 turned on but configured borkened.
20:46:30 <fizzie> I know they have, but I didn't know they could be nested.
20:46:43 <ais523> fizzie: yep, Wikipedia are gathering stats as to how many people have borken IPv6
20:46:58 <ais523> by loading an image every now and then on a custom domain that has both an A and an AAAA record, and seeing what happens
20:47:11 <Sgeo> This is not an April Fool's Joke. I am leaving to go to college now. Bye for now all
20:47:14 <fizzie> ais523: The great IPv6 experiment would also collect stats like that, I guess, if they ever got it launched. Although it's more about working v6.
20:47:22 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
20:47:23 <ehird> 20:46 AnMaster: fizzie, sixxs has ipv6 to ipv4 proxy as well
20:47:25 <ehird> uh, that's what I'm using
20:47:36 <fizzie> ehird: No, the other way around.
20:47:37 <ais523> fizzie: well, the Wikpiedia works out percentage broken + percentage v4 + percentage v6
20:47:40 <ais523> I can't remember what hte results were
20:47:59 <ehird> how's linux's ipv6 support
20:48:11 <ehird> os x's is pervasive (i.e., system-wide)
20:48:15 <AnMaster> ehird, works but a pain to configure correctly in my experience
20:48:25 <AnMaster> but that may be due to using tunnel
20:48:29 <fizzie> Well, around here my ISP does native IPv6, and it doesn't need any sort of configuration.
20:48:35 <AnMaster> and trying to share a subnet with rest of network
20:48:37 <fizzie> Since the stateless autoconfig is built-in.
20:49:00 <AnMaster> ehird, freebsd's network handling seems easier to get working correctly in general in my experience.
20:49:06 <fizzie> I did have a manually configured SixXS tunnel, with a subnet shared to my LAN, and there were not really any problems. Although it wasn't quite trivial to configure, no.
20:49:15 <AnMaster> the linux one is probably more flexible though
20:49:31 <AnMaster> (which means it is harder to use as well)
20:49:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, static one or dynamic?
20:50:02 <AnMaster> I need the latter due to dynamic IP
20:50:18 <fizzie> Static one. I have no experience with their dynamic stuffery.
20:50:31 <AnMaster> ais523, what was the url now again?
20:50:45 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/fkeau/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:51:29 <fizzie> AnMaster: "You currently have 1.390 ISK." That stuff adds up fast.
20:51:45 <AnMaster> haven't checked mine for some time
20:53:20 <fizzie> ehird: They have this credit system; you get credits for keeping your tunnel configured properly, and some operations (like changing the endpoint IP if it's a static one, or creating new subnets) costs credits.
20:53:27 <fizzie> Too bad you can't convert them to real money. :/
20:53:34 <ehird> How utterly retarded.
20:53:58 <fizzie> I think it's quite funney, actually. I'm not sure about sensible, but funney.
20:54:09 <ehird> Funn_e_y with an y.
20:54:27 <fizzie> "Tunnel endpoint 2001:14b8:100:17::2 pinged for 71 weeks" seems to be the last in my log, then (in 2008-09) I disabled it since I moved to this native-v6 place.
20:54:39 <AnMaster> $ advdef -z4 ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:54:40 <AnMaster> 866737 828925 95% ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:54:58 <ais523> AnMaster: what does that mean?
20:55:21 <ehird> fizzie: is finland an good.
20:55:31 <AnMaster> ais523, it recompresses more efficiently, a better (but slower) implementation of gzip
20:55:44 <AnMaster> or rather of deflate or whatever the actual compression method is called
20:55:47 <ais523> I have a .pax.lzma version that's rather smaller
20:55:51 <ais523> but nobody could read it
20:56:22 <AnMaster> ais523, there is an advpng that does the same on the datastream in png images. Also optipng and pngout compresses well
20:56:29 <AnMaster> iirc there is some WP: page on it
20:56:37 <AnMaster> "how to correctly preprocess png before uploading"
20:58:18 <AnMaster> http://lepton.kuonet-ng.org/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
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20:58:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: "7z -tgzip -mx=9" creates a 826520-byte .gz file for that .pax. So it's even smaller.
20:59:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, mhm, that's interesting.
20:59:06 <ehirdbuntu> Hrm. 3d accel isn't working. What's a shame.
20:59:38 <ehirdbuntu> AnMaster: VirtualFake "Maxi-Emulate" 2000
20:59:48 <ehirdbuntu> i.e. none; just 3d accel enabled in Parallels.
21:00:00 -!- tombom has joined.
21:00:12 <AnMaster> ehirdbuntu, you did it native before iirc, when you complained about fans
21:00:42 <fizzie> They all pale before the perfection that is ehirdbuntu, obviously.
21:01:08 <fizzie> I was a bit surprised that not all of [a-z]u?buntu names were in use.
21:01:30 <ehirdbuntu> For my next trick, I will install Perl in this VM.
21:02:59 <AnMaster> ais523, so what did you think about it?
21:03:00 <ehirdbuntu> wonder if 3d accel can be made to worky-work
21:03:13 <AnMaster> http://lepton.kuonet-ng.org/ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
21:03:19 <ais523> ah, pretty much perfect
21:03:28 <AnMaster> also the directory index at http://lepton.kuonet-ng.org/
21:03:48 <ehirdbuntu> if you don't like its colours you are mentally ill
21:04:00 <AnMaster> ehirdbuntu, yes agreed, perfect for when you need really really light weight
21:04:24 <AnMaster> it is institution green isn't it?
21:05:40 <ehirdbuntu> Yeah, same on OS X, except its is horribly out of date.
21:05:48 <ehirdbuntu> $ perl --version This is perl, v5.10.0 built for i486-linux-gnu-thread-multi
21:06:00 <ais523> incidentally, you don't have to use CPAN to get the more common perl modules
21:06:04 <ais523> as many of them have been ported to apt
21:06:07 <AnMaster> lepton /usr/www/data/htdocs $ perl --version
21:06:07 <AnMaster> This is perl, v5.10.0 built for x86_64-linux-thread-multi
21:06:08 <ehirdbuntu> ais523: I'd rather keep it all in one place ...
21:06:28 <AnMaster> it runs x86_64 arch actually (yes I have that now, didn't back when I made ick package)
21:06:54 <AnMaster> $ cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep 'model name'
21:06:54 <AnMaster> model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354
21:06:54 <AnMaster> model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354
21:06:54 <AnMaster> model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354
21:06:54 <AnMaster> model name : Quad-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 1354
21:07:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: Closest name for #99cc99 I can find in my rgb.txt is DarkSeaGreen3, which is #9bcd9b.
21:08:02 <ehirdbuntu> http://www.google.com/mobile/default/brainsearch.html
21:08:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, that rgb.txt... what is it based on?
21:08:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm guessing a random collection of sources, very unofficial.
21:09:58 <fizzie> Brain Search sort-of reminds one of the very early MentalPlexβ’ technology: http://www.google.com/mentalplex/
21:10:25 <ehird> thx for freezing my browser trying to install a plugin
21:11:05 <AnMaster> ehird, never happened to me ;P (because I don't use plugins yeah :D)
21:11:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Maybe IPv6 over Social Networks: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5514.txt -- I didn't really read it, it's just that the name sounds ludicruous enough.
21:11:30 <ehird> With IPv6 over Social Network (IPoSN):
21:11:30 <ehird> o Every user is a router with at least one loopback interface;
21:11:31 <ehird> o Every friend or connection between users will be used as a point-
21:12:04 -!- ehirdbuntu has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
21:12:12 <fizzie> "A latency of several hours has an impact on the transport protocols. UDP SHOULD be used, and TCP SHOULD NOT be used."
21:12:16 -!- kar8nga has joined.
21:13:58 <ehird> It was better in virtualbox
21:15:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, why loopback? Am I just too tired or is it part of the joke?
21:19:27 <fizzie> The loopback interface is used for the user ID address, since it can't really be assigned to any of the point-to-point links between friends either.
21:20:57 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMm_DrHYCD0&feature=related
21:21:19 <fizzie> There's a small joke there, in that their suggested /64 prefix for IPoSN node addresses (for a single social networking app) is 2001:db8:face:b00c::/64; it is not too hard to think which application would use that one.
21:21:52 -!- jix has quit ("...").
21:24:01 <fizzie> I wonder if that mentioned facebook app -- http://apps.facebook.com/ipoverfb/ -- actually does something. I don't have an account there.
21:24:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, what would db8 mean? Or is it just random?
21:28:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's "the IPv6 documentation prefix", meant for example use, a bit like example.com.
21:28:40 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:28:42 <fizzie> http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/ipv6-documentation-prefix-faq.html
21:29:05 <AnMaster> or why was it copied into irc client at all
21:29:16 <fizzie> Part of the 2001:0c00::/23 block allocated to APNIC. Their WHOIS server doesn't mention it, had to google a bit.
21:30:34 -!- olsner has joined.
21:30:54 <AnMaster> what does the initial 2001 mean btw?
21:31:47 <fizzie> 2000::/3 is the "global unicast" (read: "normal address) range, just about anything fits in there.
21:32:15 <AnMaster> my ipv6 vps that now hosts ick starts with that
21:32:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's just 2001:0000::/32.
21:32:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: Oh, darn, I thought it was the whole thing.
21:32:45 <Deewiant> But upon reflection, that'd have been stupid. :-P
21:33:01 <fizzie> The whole 2002::/16 block is for 6to4 tunneling, though.
21:33:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:34:53 * ais523 does the C-INTERCAL release announcement
21:35:02 <fizzie> Looking at IANA's list, it seems that they mostly ran out of space in 2001::/16, and since 2002::/16 was for 6to4, they decided to delegate in a bit larger blocks, giving stuff starting from 2400 to APNIC, 2600 to ARIN, 2800 to LACNIC, 2a00 to RIPE and 2c00 to AfriNIC.
21:35:16 <ais523> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal
21:36:01 <fizzie> http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-unicast-address-assignments
21:38:18 <fizzie> 6bone used to use addresses starting with 3ffe:, which is almost at the end of the 2000::/3 global-unicast range.
21:42:05 <AnMaster> doesn't a single /64 have more ips than ipv4 does in total anyway?
21:42:19 <AnMaster> how can they possibly run out of space yet?
21:42:45 <ais523> presumably they were giving away bigger chunks than normal
21:42:48 <fizzie> Well, ran out of space in the 2001::/16 block. That's only 5192296858534827628530496329220096 addresses, you have to cut them some slack.
21:43:08 <ais523> they're hardly going to give out a measly /128 to people who ask, when they could have a /96 or whatever instead, are they?
21:43:15 <fizzie> You can't allocate anyone anything less than /64 in any sensible way, so...
21:43:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well that turned out to have been a bad idea for ipv4, I mean IBM had it's own /8 and such...
21:43:41 <AnMaster> so why the same mistake again for ipv6...
21:44:28 <ais523> because people never learn from history
21:45:22 <fizzie> Also: It's not like they're allocating to random companies; the point is that since there are enough bits in there, you can allocate to a huge ISP a /32 or whatever, so that you can use that in the core routing tables, and you don't have to explicitly list all the billion tiny /64 blocks there.
21:45:36 <AnMaster> any bets for when ipv7 or ipv8 is introduced to solve this?
21:45:56 <ais523> it'll be standardised in 2015, but not used until 2042
21:46:03 <fizzie> Eh, CADIE'll solve the addressing issues for us anyway.
21:47:13 <fizzie> Anyway, here's the rationale for large blocks, quoted from wikipedia: "Rather, the longer addresses allow a better, systematic, hierarchical allocation of addresses and efficient route aggregation. With IPv4, complex Classless Inter-Domain Routing (CIDR) techniques were developed to make the best use of the small address space. Renumbering an existing network for a new connectivity provider with different routing prefixes is a major effort with IPv4, as discu
21:47:13 <fizzie> ssed in RFC 2071 and RFC 2072. With IPv6, however, changing the prefix in a few routers can renumber an entire network ad hoc, because the host identifiers (the least-significant 64 bits of an address) are decoupled from the subnet identifiers and the network provider's routing prefix."
21:47:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I'd say standard in 2017 or 2018 possibly. Used for cool hostmasks on irc around 2042, used for other stuff around 2078
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21:50:00 <fizzie> The hugeness of the IPv4 internet routing tables is a real problem, I understand. http://bgp.potaroo.net/ has a plot; currently a core-y router might have to keep that 300k-entry routing table in memory to know where things should go.
21:50:42 <fizzie> It would certainly help if you could say things like "this /32 contains all the gazillion IPs in the americas, you can stick all those packets to this pipe".
21:50:46 <AnMaster> that ipv6 over facebook wouldn't be impossible to implement I suspect. (<fizzie> I wonder if that mentioned facebook app -- http://apps.facebook.com/ipoverfb/ -- actually does something. I don't have an account there.) <-- same, did anyone answer
21:52:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'unno, there's a 32-bit prefix, few bits for the length, then whatever is needed for the actual system to know what to do with it. It's still quite a large list to search for every packet in the tubes.
21:52:47 <Deewiant> Well, you wouldn't store it as a list, would you. :-P
21:52:57 <fizzie> Done with hardware, obviously, but that just means it costs more to get bigger memories.
21:53:20 <Deewiant> My guess is it's some kind of trie or a perfect hash table
21:53:40 <fizzie> My guess is it's some kind of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content-addressable_memory
21:53:49 <fizzie> No-one does routing in software with those speeds, I would assume.
21:54:01 <fizzie> Not my department, though.
21:54:54 <fizzie> Certainly software-based routers don't use a plain old list either.
21:55:23 <ais523> <kerlo> Please relay all messages containing /#esoteric: to #esoteric and all messages containing /#irp: to #irp.
21:58:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: Quick peek at Linux suggests there's some sort of "recently-used" hash table for addresses, and a ip_route_output_slow fallback which uses fib_lookup; there's a kernel config option as to what that uses, FIB_HASH is the default ("very proven and good enough", says help) but there's also FIB_TRIE, which uses "new experimental LC-trie as FIB lookup algorithm".
21:58:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: The trie one is supposed to be faster for large tables.
21:58:42 <fizzie> Refers to http://www.nada.kth.se/~snilsson/public/papers/dyntrie2/
21:58:48 <AnMaster> has anyone tried creating a paradox in IRP?
21:59:57 <AnMaster> FireFly, http://bgp.potaroo.net/ <-- what do the colors represent?
22:00:39 <fizzie> My guess would be different routers' view of the routing table. But that's just a guess. Maybe the plot is documented somewhere.
22:01:17 <fizzie> Heh, 297990 entries in the v4 routing table, 1776 in v6. It's a "bit" smaller.
22:01:40 <ais523> almost 2.3 orders of magnitude
22:01:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Success).
22:07:53 -!- mmorrow has joined.
22:07:58 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
22:08:29 <ais523> and welcome, I don't think I've seen you here before
22:08:33 <ais523> although I've seen you elsewhere
22:08:48 <Gracenotes> yes, on Wikipedia namely. I've come across your edits on the Esoteric Wiki
22:09:04 <ais523> mostly clearing up spam nowadays, it seems
22:09:21 <Gracenotes> Didn't know there was an IRC channel though. It was mentioned in #haskell in the context of a Brainfuck interpreter.
22:09:31 <ais523> this is probably the most active esolang forum anywhere
22:09:37 <ais523> although it often goes offtopic
22:09:57 <lament> of course the guy actually writing the compiler didn't actually join :)
22:10:12 <lament> he might invent another Ook, i'm afraid
22:10:20 <ais523> well, sometimes it seems there are more Brainfuck interpreters than programmers
22:10:29 <ais523> and more Brainfuck derivatives than interesting languages
22:10:34 <Gracenotes> heh, yeah. I sort of invented an Esoteric language once, although it was rather simple. Just a stack-oriented simple lambda calculus interpreter
22:10:46 <ais523> well, that's more interesting than most invented esolangs
22:11:00 -!- kadaver has joined.
22:11:24 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Hi, kadaver!
22:11:33 <Gracenotes> >f >x >x @ @ #x >f >x >x @ @ #x @ #f >a ?0 >b >f >a -1 @ >b +1 @ ? #b #a #f @ 5 @ 7 @
22:11:56 <Gracenotes> the first part is the Y-combinator; after that is a Peano addition
22:11:57 <ais523> reverse-polish, @ = apply?
22:11:58 <lament> it's even self-documenting!
22:12:50 <kadaver> lol hi! friendly channeφ ?
22:13:03 <Gracenotes> # makes a lambda abstraction, > recalls a variable (throwing an error if not in scope), ? is a simple condition operator, @ is apply
22:13:07 <kadaver> i wrote a bf interpreter in haskell
22:13:14 <ais523> we even chatted to a troll friendlily for about half an hour, I think he gave up after that
22:13:47 <ais523> hmm... seems we don't have an unlambda bot in here at the moment
22:13:53 <ais523> ehird: if you're online, bring unlambda in here?
22:14:15 <ais523> Gracenotes: like lambda calculus, but without the lambdas
22:14:22 <ais523> it nevertheless manages to be turing-complete
22:14:36 <ais523> with a few other things added to make it more confusing
22:14:41 <Gracenotes> nonetheless it manages to make my brain hurt :)
22:14:49 <ais523> oh, it makes everyone's brain hurt
22:15:02 <ais523> interestingly, Unlambda is rather easy to write as esolangs go, but almost impossible to read or edit
22:15:18 <Gracenotes> write meaning programs in it, or an interpreter?
22:15:25 <kadaver> ais523: i guess thats the most effective way to treat trolls
22:15:26 <ais523> interpreters are a lot harder
22:15:33 -!- swistakm has quit ("Lost terminal").
22:15:47 <Gracenotes> I am familiar with SKI calculus in the form of the environment monad, though
22:16:06 -!- DH__ has joined.
22:16:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp
22:16:38 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
22:16:44 <ais523> I feel like some Wikipedian nonsense, fungot
22:16:45 <fungot> ais523: how many km long is the line? special:contributions/ fnord ( user fnord) 13:24, 27 june 2008 ( utc
22:16:48 -!- DH__ has left (?).
22:16:54 <ais523> fungot's written in Befunge
22:16:55 <fungot> ais523: thats a fairly vague definition of " not serious" ( ' spear') plus the latin and germanic " man" means " land of meadows" from the name of james d. watson? user:landerman56landerman56 ( user talk:landerman56talk) 00:14, 16 december 2007 ( utc)
22:17:12 <ais523> it also does Underload and Brainfuck
22:18:22 <ais523> it's basically impossible to compile
22:18:36 <ais523> although someone (fizzie IRC)'s working on a JITting funge interpreter
22:18:42 <ais523> and some impls, like cfunge, are incredibly fast
22:19:17 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:19:20 <Gracenotes> yeah. it is just a multidimensional array, in a sense
22:19:40 <ais523> funge-space is too big to be able to hold all in memory at once, though
22:19:47 <ais523> or indeed, all on disk without compression
22:19:53 <ais523> which makes an interesting challenge to interpret
22:20:06 <ais523> Deewiant here is the world expert on Befunge conformance testing
22:20:08 <Gracenotes> does it extend infinitely? I thought it just looped.
22:20:24 <ais523> but Befunge-98 extends to INT_MIN and INT_MAX
22:20:29 <fungot> AnMaster: one reason the claim beggars the imagination is that one has some idea of what nationalism is. no wonder zoe was so fed up of dealing with bensozia in myth is carlo fnord ' ' if that is not used commonly and carries with it an implication of involvement in fnord advocacy like fnord, if that's some published author's view, then it must be made extremely clear by re-writing the introduction and then his or her unique de
22:20:32 <ais523> which is rather large, especially on a 64-bit system
22:20:48 <ais523> AnMaster: IIRC, it's been run on cfunge and RC/funge, I'm not sure which it's using atm
22:20:56 <fizzie> ais523: It's been cfunge lately, yes.
22:20:57 <ais523> well, yes, so it can be infinite
22:21:04 <ais523> but it nonetheless loops around the edges
22:21:04 <AnMaster> and yes I know it has been on rc/funge before
22:21:15 <AnMaster> mostly because I hadn't done SOCK in cfunge yet then
22:21:36 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, ah no, not exactly in b98
22:21:49 <ais523> oh dear, befunge-98 wrapping is rather complex
22:21:52 <fizzie> And I've been doing a bit of jitfunge, yes. It'll probably never be a very complete interpreter, though, I don't think I'll support threads any time soon.
22:22:01 <Deewiant> Awwwwwwwwwwwwh, GHC 6.10.2 doesn't update the extralibs, I'll have to wait for 6.12 :-/
22:22:03 <ais523> it's only like a torus if you're going in a compass direction at the time
22:22:11 <Gracenotes> yeah. I've been meaning to make an interpreter, but my understanding was that it looped like a Torus with set sizes.
22:22:21 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined.
22:22:23 <ais523> the actual looping's a sort of virtual bounce
22:22:33 <ais523> if it reaches the edge, the IP bounces but turns invisible, in a sense
22:22:41 <ais523> so it doesn't execute anything until it gets back to the opposite edge
22:22:45 <Sgeo[College]> If MSSQLServer seems to be running on computers in the computer lab, is that a sign of somethign malicious?
22:22:51 <ais523> then it starts executing again, after rebouncing
22:22:54 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: no, lots of programs use it
22:23:07 <ais523> that's the same effect as a torus when going orthogonally
22:23:08 <Gracenotes> ais523: if it's step-wise, why is the lack of execution important?
22:23:20 <ais523> Gracenotes: well, say you have abc as your program
22:23:37 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: If you have multiple threads it matters.
22:23:44 <ais523> it runs abc, then reaches the right-hand end of the program, then doesn't execute anything when going back to the left, then starts executing again from the left
22:23:52 <ais523> also, it does all this in zero time even if fungespace is infinitely larg
22:24:06 <Sgeo[College]> Can someone check if there's any CADIE stuff on GOOG-411?
22:24:34 <Gracenotes> oh, multithreaded Befunge. So it's like Python's GIL then?
22:24:48 <ais523> Befunge-98 is a pretty advanced standard, really
22:24:55 <ais523> it's a major update over befunge-93
22:25:04 <Deewiant> Threads run in a predefined order, one at a time. They're not really parallel.
22:25:12 <fizzie> The wrapping is explained rather well (as far as writing an implementation is considered, and unless you bother about corner cases like jumping over the edge) in the non-appendix part of the Funge-98 spec.
22:25:32 <fizzie> "When the IP attempts to travel into the whitespace between the code and the end of known, addressable space, it backtracks. This means that its delta is reversed and it ignores (skips over without executing) all instructions. Travelling thus, it finds the other 'edge' of code when there is again nothing but whitespace in front of it. It is reflected 180 degrees once more (to restore its original delta) and stops ignoring instructions. Execution then resumes
22:25:32 <fizzie> normally - the wrap is complete."
22:25:47 <ais523> well, jumping over the edge isn't the same in all implementations anyway
22:25:59 <ais523> so no sane programmer relies on it
22:26:28 <ais523> well, some esolangers are saner than others
22:26:59 <fizzie> Also some are just saner in other ways, even though the total sum of sanity might not be larger.
22:27:25 <fungot> Deewiant: ' ' ' fnord" by another group on methylene blue fnord amyloid fnord by promoting fnord, related to alzheimer's disease. paper was published earlier than taylor's, why is fnord
22:27:49 <fizzie> AnMaster's speed-obsession, for example, is a valid excuse for other more or less sane behaviour. In my opinion, anyway.
22:28:06 <ais523> AnMaster seems worryingly sane for a #esoteric-er
22:28:23 <ais523> and I don't think the speed obsession is a sign of insanity, it's more he's just aiming for an unusual project goal
22:28:37 <Gracenotes> fizzie: how does Befunge know where the other edge of code is?
22:29:03 <ais523> interpreters keep track of the outermost values of fungespace that contain non-spaces
22:29:12 <ais523> and optimise infinity down to finite values that way
22:29:21 <fizzie> Or the outermost values that have ever contained non-spaces, more likely. :p
22:29:33 <Deewiant> Unless you're running slowdown.b98, which I guess cfunge still can't handle?
22:29:52 <Gracenotes> I suppose one could have special markers?
22:30:02 <ais523> it's generally done in memory
22:30:09 <ais523> Deewiant: I thought cfunge could handle it, it was jsut slow
22:30:38 <Deewiant> ais523: Well sure, CCBI as well, but iterating one step a time through around 2^64-1 or even 2^32-1 values takes time
22:30:43 <ehird> 22:13 ais523: we even chatted to a troll friendlily for about half an hour, I think he gave up after that
22:30:47 <Deewiant> So I don't really call that handling it
22:30:56 <ais523> ehird: that person who kept saying one thing, quitting, and changing nick
22:31:07 <ehird> you mean me? ;-) :P
22:31:11 <ais523> admittedly, he wasn't in the channel when we were talking to him, but he was obviously logreading
22:31:13 <ais523> ehird: no, someone else
22:31:14 <Gracenotes> so, uh, not a very effective troll I take it
22:31:15 <fizzie> I've seen (and written) befunge-93 implementations that mark the edges of the funge-space with specific codes (like 254, 253, 252, 251) that check the x/y coordinate and then wrap if necessary; that lets you just move your IP around without having to check for wrapping. That kind of thing won't work in funge-98, of course.
22:31:16 <ehird> ais523: We were rather un-friendly, I recall.
22:31:18 <ais523> you started doing that a bit later
22:31:25 <ehird> No, I've done that forever.
22:31:31 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: iki.fi/deewiant/files/befunge/programs/slowdown.b98, something I wrote to slow down interpreters
22:31:33 <ais523> kadaver: I'm not sure, but C++ lambdas aren't proper lambdas anyway
22:31:41 * ehird tries http://apps.facebook.com/ipoverfb
22:31:46 <ehird> Router operator: Elliott Hird
22:31:46 <fizzie> Does "C++ lambdas" mean the boost lambda, or what?
22:31:47 <ehird> Loopback0 address: 2001:db8:face:b00c::2024:ff0c/128
22:31:49 <ehird> Friend interfaces: 1
22:31:50 <ais523> and various bits of C++ almost qualify as esolangs by now anyway
22:31:51 <ehird> Connection proposals from friends: 0
22:31:53 <ehird> Your router does not have a default route yet... So, you cannot send traffic to the real IPv6 Internet. Please connect to more friends and wait until RIPng has converged.
22:31:56 <ehird> wow, I think it might acutally work
22:32:05 <ais523> ehird: IP over facebook?
22:32:15 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: It's relatively clear for Befunge, IMO. You should take a look at Mycology ;-)
22:32:19 <ais523> classic, and no technical reason why it couldn't work
22:32:30 <ehird> ais523: it's an april 1st one
22:32:31 <ais523> the april fools RFCs do usually work, after all
22:32:34 <ehird> it's for any social network
22:32:35 <ais523> apart from that evil bit one
22:32:44 <ehird> ais523: hey, that one worked!
22:32:46 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
22:32:46 <ais523> they wouldn't be nearly as funny if they didn't work, after all
22:32:49 <ehird> it got put in freebsd trunk, ais523
22:32:53 <fizzie> Gracenotes: Here's fungot's sources: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
22:32:53 <fungot> fizzie: i'd say that would be obvious... the furs never reached istanbul... you were asking if something called " parameters" that might be
22:32:56 <AnMaster> <ais523> and I don't think the speed obsession is a sign of insanity, it's more he's just aiming for an unusual project goal <-- indeed
22:32:58 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/mycology.html, the reason I'm the world expert on Befunge conformance testing
22:33:03 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
22:33:08 <fizzie> (The wikipedia style is a bit too punctuation-rich for my tastes.)
22:33:24 <Sgeo[College]> Hm, is a transcript of CADIE's Triumph video available somewhere? I didn't bring my headphones to school :)
22:33:47 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Unless you're running slowdown.b98, which I guess cfunge still can't handle? <-- more important matters showed up recently
22:34:01 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot").
22:34:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Alright, just wondering
22:34:03 <ehird> Sgeo[College]: triumph?
22:34:29 <Gracenotes> no, the default text editor doesn't like the encoding
22:34:51 <fizzie> Compared to Mycology, fungot's really quite readable and sane.
22:34:51 <fungot> fizzie: but they ask for pieces of papers. all but 1 register needs a temporary? when?
22:34:53 <Deewiant> Or really, it doesn't matter, to be honest.
22:34:58 <Sgeo[College]> Also, CADIE's text on the images.google.com page changed
22:35:02 <Deewiant> It's arbitrary as long as it's ASCII.
22:35:07 <ais523> fizzie: well, Mycology's a test-suite, they're /meant/ to be insane
22:35:12 <ais523> or they wouldn't be testing properly
22:35:17 <Deewiant> Although I think UTF-8 might break at some point.
22:35:39 <Deewiant> Gracenotes: There's a null byte at one point which might explain your problems.
22:35:40 <ais523> I welcome our ostensibly-written-in-INTERCAL overlords
22:36:00 <Deewiant> ais523: Well, they could still be written legibly. :-P
22:36:13 <AnMaster> <ais523> the april fools RFCs do usually work, after all <-- IMPS? Well depends on the value of "works".
22:36:14 <Deewiant> I had to fix a bug related to 1y a week ago
22:36:22 <Gracenotes> Deewiant: just seems like a lot going on
22:36:29 <ais523> AnMaster: the pigeon one definitely works, there have been tests
22:36:53 <Deewiant> In order to do it, I had to x to a temporary location from which I could x out to a slightly more sparse area where I had room to actually do something
22:37:11 <lament> i think wikipedia has the best april fools
22:37:22 <ais523> a huge amount of effort goes into that
22:37:29 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, the encoding thing: litteral embedded null byte
22:37:32 <ais523> Gracenotes: oh, befunge strings are normally written backwards
22:37:36 <AnMaster> to check interpreters doesn't choke on it
22:37:37 <ais523> so they print out forwards
22:37:52 <AnMaster> (cfunge of course doesn't, my editor does though)
22:38:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did any interpreter ever choke on it?
22:38:10 <lament> Did you know ... that Adam de Stratton was arrested for the possession of toenail clippings (example pictured)?
22:38:45 -!- MizardX has joined.
22:38:47 <Deewiant> But I have to get up in around 6 hours so I'm going to bed now
22:38:58 <ais523> I love the way they mixed in a genuine UK news story
22:39:07 <ais523> ofc, all the others are genuine too, but mostly rewritten to look misleading
22:39:36 <ehird> New cadie blog post
22:40:18 <ehird> It's like a soap opera for ai nerds.
22:40:30 <AnMaster> ais523, about ick, what does http://code.google.com/p/cadie/source/browse/trunk/CADIE.I actually do?
22:40:38 <ehird> AnMaster: prints a constant string
22:40:42 <ais523> AnMaster: you could run it and find out
22:40:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:40:57 <ais523> but I'm disappointed that not enough people here realise it prints out a constant string, that should be obvious
22:41:06 <ais523> the actual string itself is rather harder to work out
22:41:22 <AnMaster> a fool related string I assume
22:41:34 <Gracenotes> what makes INTERCAL so (apparently) difficult?
22:42:03 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't you say it didn't run in ick?
22:42:14 <ais523> it's clc it didn't run in, I ported her
22:42:22 <ais523> Gracenotes: lack of usual arithmetic and flow control operators
22:42:45 <Gracenotes> ah. so how are conditions generally handler.
22:42:47 <lament> Gracenotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:INTERCAL_Circuitous_Diagram.svg
22:43:04 <ais523> Gracenotes: in INTERCAL-72, the usual trick is to do a computed function return
22:43:10 <ais523> you create a wrapper function
22:43:25 <ais523> and return either from it if the condition's true, or the function that called it if the condition's false
22:43:36 <ais523> in INTERCAL, you can return from a function other than the one you're in at the time, which is rather confusing
22:43:50 <ehird> I bet cadie is actually real and we just haven't realisd it yet./
22:44:00 <ais523> well, that can't be genuine source
22:44:07 <ais523> but maybe cadie hid her source
22:44:23 <ehird> ais523: the source says I don't feel like sharing, right?
22:44:31 <ais523> or something like that
22:44:37 <ehird> so presumably the source is a joke by cadie in this cadie-is-real alternate universe
22:45:03 <ais523> in more recent INTERCAL, by the way, computed COME FROM and computed ABSTAIN are the favoured way to do conditional branches
22:45:07 -!- nooga has joined.
22:45:15 <Gracenotes> ah, COME FROM. Nearly as sane as goto.
22:45:32 <ais523> computed COME FROM presents some interesting hurdles for implementors
22:45:37 <ais523> I should know, I maintain C-INTERCAL
22:46:36 <ais523> hmm... what was he like?
22:46:38 <ehird> "Hey I bought it for awhile. It was believable... However the favorited video "bye bye panda" kind of maade me completely doubt the reality ofο»Ώ it. And if AI was real, it would have been all over the news if it was on YouTube. Nice try, Google. "
22:46:42 <ehird> how on earth can you believe that
22:46:48 <ehird> Gracenotes: oh god
22:47:23 <ais523> my C-INTERCAL is technically a fork, but because the original had been discontinued for years it became the de-facto official version
22:47:43 <fizzie> Alan Cox was in Finland in a small meet-thing-thing, but that's the extent to which I've met any Linux-famous people.
22:48:29 <Gracenotes> I once almost met Bjourne, of C++ fame
22:48:44 <fizzie> How did I manage to misread wikipedia's summary "Alan Cox -- is a British computer programmer heavily involved in the development of the Linux kernel --" as something like "Alan Cox -- is a British computer programmer often heavily drunk".
22:48:45 <ehird> Bjourne Stroustrup
22:48:57 <ehird> the C++ was a joke article was written by him
22:49:07 <nooga> i'm in a pub, owning their wifi ap
22:49:08 <Gracenotes> but it was not to be. I totally missed his lecture :\
22:49:23 <ehird> AnMaster: 'has written code in the same file as'?
22:49:25 <ehird> if so, many hundreds.
22:49:54 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure how to define it so it is exclusive enough, yet allows us in #esoteric to get low ones
22:50:19 <ais523> personally, I think CADIE is just Google's attempt to compete with Wolfram Alpha
22:50:27 <ehird> ais523: that thing still exists?
22:50:35 <Sgeo[College]> ais523: did you see images.google.com ? Not the one with unicorns
22:50:41 <ehird> nooga: no shit sherlock!
22:50:45 <ais523> nooga: but she's written in INTERCAL!
22:50:56 -!- nooga has changed nick to cpt_obvious.
22:51:02 <Gracenotes> heh, C/C++/C# in http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/
22:51:12 <ehird> Gracenotes: all of them say that
22:51:18 <ehird> that's the first intercal mention
22:51:23 <ais523> ehird: not that, just the name of the language is silly
22:51:24 <Sgeo[College]> Different languages have slightly different responses
22:51:29 <ehird> ais523: well, yeah
22:51:30 <ais523> those are pretty different langs
22:51:32 <ehird> they're all c-alikes
22:51:42 <Gracenotes> "CADIE is busy working on a new translator that will allow you to use INTERCAL with GWT instead of Java. Check back soon!"
22:51:48 <ehird> ais523: probably copied from google code search; as in, the syntaces are similar so it searches them together
22:52:10 <ais523> well, C-INTERCAL allows linking INTERCAL with C or Befunge code
22:52:35 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
22:54:44 <cpt_obvious> there are no clear docs covering P6 architecture
22:55:39 <ehird> cpt_obvious: wut? ?
22:55:49 <ehird> who where what why when did you come from and wut
22:57:56 * ais523 gives FireFly an anti-swat shielf
22:58:20 <Gracenotes> hrm. are there any good logic esolangs?
22:58:26 <ehird> Gracenotes: prolog :-)
22:58:30 <ais523> what do you mean by "logic esolangs"/
22:58:32 <ehird> so, when does cadie give us brain implants?
22:58:38 <ais523> prolog isn't an esolang, but it's pretty interesting anyway
22:58:41 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined.
22:58:48 <ais523> and not used nearly as much as it should be
22:58:54 <ehird> i am haurmor murster
22:59:05 <Gracenotes> ais523: mainly modeled after Prolog, though.
22:59:07 <ehird> I said it was new 5 minutes ago
22:59:34 <ais523> Gracenotes: I don't know of any declarative esolangs offhand
22:59:35 <Gracenotes> constraint programming, satisfiability, probably with unification/backtracking
22:59:45 <Gracenotes> although that does sound rather esoteric as it is
22:59:49 <ais523> I have a couple but have never got around to writing the specs
23:00:02 <ais523> Proud's basically Prolog with all the restrictions removed, but it's uncomputable
23:00:07 <ehird> this is really elaborate for an april fool's
23:00:15 <ehird> guess google decided to go all out
23:00:16 <Sgeo[College]> I don't see in the log where you mentioned a new post
23:00:18 <ais523> and Cyclexa's a potentially-practical esolang project, but I haven't really got very far with it
23:00:21 <ehird> Sgeo[College]: I do
23:00:30 <ehird> 22:39 ehird: New cadie blog post
23:00:31 <ehird> 22:40 ehird: It's like a soap opera for ai nerds.
23:00:32 <FireFly> Googling for "Cadie" gives me a news result telling me it's an april fools.. Very clever, Google
23:00:33 <ais523> which is based on a cross between regexps and Prolog
23:00:49 <ehird> FireFly: err cadie is an april fools is that what you're saying?
23:00:59 <ais523> one of the reasons that Cyclexa's on hold, by the way, is that Perl are stealing all my ideas :(
23:01:26 <FireFly> I get newspaper hits telling me it is, IMO it'd be better if people didn't get to know it is that easy
23:01:38 <ehird> FireFly: 1. it's blindingly obvious
23:01:44 <ehird> 2. google would never tamper their results like that
23:01:49 <ehird> that's just not the done thing
23:02:26 <ehird> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/5897/ yespls
23:02:47 <Sgeo[College]> Cadie is still an ongoing story, though. It's not "Oh, Google did a quick joke, end of story". Knowing that CADIE is an April 1st prank is like knowing that a novel is fiction
23:03:04 <ehird> novels are fictional?
23:03:31 <ais523> cpt_obvious: </AnMaster>
23:03:57 <ais523> AnMaster: you've become a synonym for whooosh
23:04:17 <ehird> since you never do anything but woosh to non-oerjan jokes, AnMaster
23:04:26 <AnMaster> ais523, could you write Proud be written in Feather?
23:04:38 <ais523> no, Proud's uncomputable, Feather is not super-TC
23:04:46 <ais523> although Feather hurts my head, and I don't want my brain to explode right now
23:04:54 <AnMaster> ais523, right. Was just wondering
23:05:19 <ehird> cpt_obvious: unask that question
23:05:24 <ehird> QUICK DAMMIT YOU FOOL
23:05:29 <ais523> err, yes, unasking is probably best for all concerned
23:05:32 <ehird> the answer is mu, cpt_obvious
23:05:33 <ais523> or I'll have to try to answer
23:05:37 <ehird> there, I unasked it for you
23:06:01 <Sgeo[College]> I like to think my code's easier, but I'm less certain that it works
23:06:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have a compulsive disorder about writing down that I laughed about everything.
23:06:05 <ais523> cpt_obvious: I suggest you ask in #feather-lang, I think it's empty atm so it'll be safe to ask
23:06:07 <ais523> let me check, actually
23:06:18 <ehird> AnMaster: err, just try and shift the mocking on to other people badly why don't you
23:06:19 <AnMaster> sometimes I do notice jokes but never mention that :P
23:06:21 <ais523> oh, not quite, ChanServ's in there
23:07:00 <ais523> which is another reason not to explain Feather right now
23:07:01 <ehird> don't tell AnMaster
23:07:02 <AnMaster> ais523, empty? I added it to autojoin now
23:07:12 <ais523> explaining Feather to someone /who is drunk/ probably would cause a fatality
23:07:12 <ehird> ais523: I don't know; alcohol may well improve perception of Feather
23:07:24 <cpt_obvious> i'm here with my boss an we're owning wifi networks and drinking :D
23:07:33 <ehird> although hallucinogens would probably fare better
23:08:08 <ehird> cpt_obvious: feather is like, like, like, a trip, except the drug is time, man
23:08:12 <ehird> and it trips your code, man.
23:08:17 <ehird> Oh, retroactively.
23:08:27 <AnMaster> cpt_obvious, it lets you redefine the language itself, while running
23:08:35 <ais523> AnMaster: that's boring, even Perl can do that
23:08:36 <ehird> many languages have that
23:08:43 <ais523> it lets you redefine what the language /was/ retroactively
23:08:47 <ais523> which is slightly different
23:08:49 <ehird> AnMaster: no, that's totally misrepresenting it
23:08:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I was about to get to that
23:09:00 <ais523> the retroactivity's the whole point
23:09:05 <ais523> seeing as nothing in Feather can ever change
23:09:07 <ais523> cpt_obvious: there aren't any
23:09:11 <ehird> cpt_obvious: /home/ais523/mind
23:09:13 <ais523> at least, I wrote some but they were wrong
23:09:23 <ehird> please don't try and grep it; it's very painful I hear
23:09:43 <AnMaster> ehird, /dev/ais523_mind .. duh
23:09:57 <ehird> AnMaster: err, that's bad hierarchy
23:10:00 <ehird> isn't that right ais523?
23:10:13 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but that is because it is in a real OS
23:10:28 <ais523> ehird: I'm not sure if I'm in a /dev
23:10:34 <cpt_obvious> it's like s/// regexp with some addons to change states while running
23:10:40 <ehird> ais523: I said /home/ais523/mind
23:10:47 <ehird> AnMaster "corrected" it as /dev/ais523_mind, which is silly
23:10:53 <ais523> they're both wrong, clearly
23:11:03 <AnMaster> ehird, real OS have flaws. Weird bits, ideal on the paper ones maybe doesn't. But there are always some dark corners in any actually existing OS
23:11:03 <ais523> you think I keep my mind in a /filesystem/?
23:11:26 <ehird> AnMaster: er, there's nothing stopping you making /home/ais523/mind
23:11:38 <ehird> thinking otherwise is just ignorance
23:11:40 <AnMaster> ais523, no, but there is a block device representing it
23:11:41 <FireFly> Well, since ais523 IS a dev[eloper]
23:11:55 <ais523> technically speaking, I'm an engineer
23:11:57 <AnMaster> ehird, there is. /home mounted nodev
23:12:07 <ehird> AnMaster: /dev mounted nodev
23:12:16 <ehird> WHAT NOW! Oh wait, you set your file system up retardedly so you get retarded results.
23:12:16 <ais523> ehird: haha, you should so do that someday
23:12:27 <ehird> AnMaster: who cares
23:12:29 <ehird> it's SECURE like that!
23:12:37 <ais523> I don't think there's any technical reason why you can't boot with /dev set nodev
23:12:38 <ehird> Doing nothing is EXTRA SPEEDY.
23:12:43 <ehird> If you need more you could BENCHMARK IT
23:12:52 <AnMaster> ais523, /dev/console and /dev/null are needed at least for some core system parts. udev, init and a few other ones iirc
23:12:54 <ais523> although it would depend on how your init worked
23:13:04 <ais523> AnMaster: init can be very simple
23:13:16 <ais523> what you mean is /your/ system wouldn't boot, because your init is trying to be too clever
23:13:20 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah but I meant on a GNU/Linux system
23:13:40 <ais523> but even so, you can get inits that don't care about /dev
23:13:41 <AnMaster> hm /dev/zero not /dev/null iirc
23:13:53 <ais523> you could just set init to ash or something on the bootlodaer, for instance
23:14:13 <cpt_obvious> for a string that compiles to the base language in a previously defined way
23:14:16 <kadaver> whats thats esotericlanguage with all the parenthesises called?
23:14:19 <AnMaster> ais523, it would want some tty I think
23:14:22 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: one of the simplest shs around atm
23:14:27 <cpt_obvious> and then in that language you can do the same etc etc
23:14:28 <ais523> AnMaster: you can have a tty without having /dev available
23:14:28 <AnMaster> ais523, not sure how that would be handled..
23:14:35 <kadaver> (map (lambda (x)(* x x)) '(1 2 3))
23:14:40 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: EPERM, luckily
23:14:44 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess kernel hands it over as an open fd?
23:14:58 <AnMaster> actually invoking init would be weird I guess
23:15:04 <ais523> although it's probably just the serial connection
23:15:19 <kadaver> write a kernel in brainfuck,then you have secured maintenance work for the rest of your life=the wya IT works
23:15:21 <ais523> and the kernel invokes init by setting up memory as if it was a userspace process, then simulating fork/exec
23:15:30 <Sgeo[College]> If EPERM means read-only, did you just say you never learn?
23:15:38 <ais523> no, EPERM means you aren't allowed to do that
23:15:38 <kadaver> is writing a toy-kernel hard?
23:15:44 <ais523> so it's read-only for you, but isn't for me
23:15:49 <ais523> kadaver: not particularly
23:16:04 <ais523> in UNIX, how readable or writable a file is depends on who's reading or writing
23:16:07 <ais523> the same in Windows, actually
23:16:14 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: you aren't in the admin group for my mind
23:16:17 <ais523> in fact, I don't think I am
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23:18:37 <kadaver> ais523: how many LOC can you get away with doing something minimal? I heard the initial linux kernel linus released was just 10K loc
23:18:47 <ais523> depends on how minimal
23:19:00 <ais523> if all you want with your kernel is to run some minimal esolangs, you can do it well under a KB of machine code
23:19:14 <ais523> asiekierka isn't here, but IIRC he was working on something like that
23:19:18 <ais523> a live-esolang floppy disk
23:20:49 <Gracenotes> heh, it seems there's no working IRP interpreter currently
23:20:52 <cpt_obvious> multiprocess kernel with a memory manager, own filesystem and multiple text terminal
23:21:00 <kadaver> ais523: well i guess it depends on how you define kernel. what would en esolang kernel need to be able to do?
23:21:08 <ais523> Gracenotes: #IRP is actually surprisingly active today
23:21:15 <ais523> normally it idles for weeks at a time
23:21:26 <ais523> and some esolangs have very small interps
23:21:39 <ais523> Gracenotes: it seems some teacher's set a university project on IRP
23:21:45 <ais523> and all the students have been coming in there asking for help
23:21:55 <ais523> weirder things have happened, I suppose...
23:22:22 <ais523> it isn't logged, unfortunately
23:22:40 <ais523> but you saw the conversation with DH__, at least
23:23:08 -!- neldoreth has joined.
23:23:13 <ais523> hmm... seems idle again
23:23:24 <ais523> lecture's probably over
23:23:50 <kadaver> multiple text terminal = multiple windows? any graphics?
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23:35:25 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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23:43:41 <ehird> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl
23:44:07 <ais523> that's been there for a while
23:44:12 <ais523> I'm not sure what to do about it
23:44:17 <ais523> the article's also confusing, too
23:44:26 <ehird> ais523: i was referring to the last section
23:44:50 <ais523> that can be golfed by at least three characters
23:45:02 <ais523> probably four, actually
23:45:12 <ehird> apart from removing the space
23:45:33 <ehird> when all you can shave off is whitespace and a ;, it's not cool any more.
23:45:44 <ehird> leaving them in is saying "I'm so good at golfing, I'm just going to leave this low-hanging fruit."
23:46:18 <lament> low-hanging fruit is generally the tastiest
23:46:36 <ais523> I was going to change the \n to a literal newline
23:46:40 <ais523> that's what saves the last character
23:47:50 <ehird> #!/usr/bin/env perl
23:47:50 <ehird> # Released under the MIT license.
23:47:53 <ehird> # TODO: add POD docs
23:48:01 <ehird> my $code = join("\n", @lines);
23:48:03 <fizzie> Uh... why is the newline even needed there? I thought that if you do <> in a list context, the elements returned still contain any newlines present.
23:48:07 <ehird> damn, my whitespace was tarnished
23:48:09 <ehird> #!/usr/bin/env perl
23:48:13 <ehird> # Released under the MIT license.
23:48:17 <ehird> # TODO: add POD docs
23:48:29 <ehird> my $code = join("\n", @lines);
23:48:39 <ehird> fizzie: eval isn't in a list context is it
23:48:41 <ehird> eval join <> just reads one line
23:48:43 <ehird> since the first argument is the sep
23:48:48 <ais523> fizzie: oh, you're right
23:48:57 <fizzie> Huh? join <> definitely uses <> in a list context.
23:49:05 <ehird> fizzie: perl -e'eval join <>'
23:49:07 <ehird> only reads one line
23:49:10 <ehird> I know this because _i tested it_
23:49:17 <fizzie> You don't need a newline.
23:49:38 <ehird> great, wiki formatting fucked it
23:50:03 <ais523> considerably smaller again
23:50:12 <ehird> that's using the command line
23:50:18 <ehird> also, perl -0e'eval <>' is shorter still
23:50:19 <ais523> oh, it doesn't need the parens
23:50:28 <ehird> but `eval join '', <>;` doesn't use the command line, and is pretty
23:50:29 <ais523> and perl -0e'eval<>' is shorter still
23:50:35 <ais523> the parens were to force list context
23:50:44 <ais523> but you don't need list context there
23:51:12 <ehird> ais523: what is the value of $x after:
23:51:20 <ehird> sub foo { return (1, 2, 3); }
23:51:41 <ais523> foo returns an array, an array in scalar context returns its length
23:51:53 <ehird> I thought you meant last element
23:52:00 <ais523> no, that would be stupid
23:52:11 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 3); } my $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:52:11 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 1, 1); } my $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:52:29 <ais523> hmm... maybe I'm wrong
23:52:47 <ehird> [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } my $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:52:51 <ehird> Yes β that would be, and is, stupid.
23:53:00 <fizzie> I really didn't think it'd actually return the last element.
23:53:06 <Sgeo[College]> The professor just put up his solution, and it's saner and less wtf'y than mine
23:53:06 <ais523> what happens if you separate the my and the $x?
23:53:17 <ais523> the my may be forcing list context
23:53:27 <ehird> [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } my $x; $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:53:34 <ehird> [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'x 7
23:54:19 <ehird> Sgeo[College]: NOT RAFB
23:54:38 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: is that yours or the professors?
23:54:41 <ais523> also, use rafb, it annoys ehird
23:55:04 <ais523> that's pretty elegant IMO, half the checks are redundant, but they make the code clearer
23:55:37 <ehird> LOGGET READERS: http://www.nopaste.com/p/atKQKnKjab
23:55:47 <Sgeo[College]> First time writing it, I actually made the mistake of 90 <= num_grade <= 100
23:55:56 <ehird> python lets you do that
23:56:10 <fizzie> What is even weirder is this:
23:56:11 <ehird> say, is there an efficient way to do 'round x up to the nearest power of 2?'
23:56:12 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { my @a = (1, 2, 7); return @a; } my $x; $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:56:18 -!- kadaver has left (?).
23:56:18 <ais523> ehird: yep, see that bithacks thing
23:56:26 <ehird> ais523: relinketj?
23:56:35 <fizzie> I guess "return @a" there is in a non-list context. Or what is happening?
23:56:41 <ais523> fizzie: I've just figured it out
23:56:52 <ais523> you're calling sub foo in a scalar context
23:56:53 <ehird> [ehird:~] % perl -e 'sub foo { (1, 2, 7); } $x = foo(); print "x $x\n";'
23:56:58 -!- cpt_obvious has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:56:58 <fizzie> Does it use the comma expression instead of list there in the return (1, 2, 7)?
23:57:01 <ehird> ais523: well sure and?
23:57:01 <ais523> so you're writing return (1, 2, 7)
23:57:10 <ais523> that means the return is evaluated in a scalar context
23:57:15 <ais523> so that's the comma operator, not an array literal
23:57:23 <ais523> the subroutine parses differently depending on how you call it
23:57:24 <ehird> that's just hideous
23:57:34 <ehird> it changes your code semantics depending on how it's called?
23:57:34 <fizzie> Yeah, something like that was my guess too. Heh.
23:57:41 <ehird> can you imagine how much that breaks?
23:57:48 <ais523> not very often, actually
23:58:17 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ perl -e 'sub foo { return (1, 2, 7); } my $x = foo(); my @x = foo(); print "x-scalar $x, x-list ", join(" ", @x), "\n";'
23:58:17 <fizzie> x-scalar 7, x-list 1 2 7
23:58:18 <ehird> ais523: sorry, have an urge: i said how much, not how often
23:58:22 <ehird> so your response is a non-sequitur
23:59:08 <fizzie> I think this sort of Perl nastiness is a nice point to go to sleep; night.
23:59:11 <ais523> fizzie: and scalar @x would be 3, in that case
00:00:26 * ais523 vaguely wonders what foo would do in void context, but it's probably optimized out
00:02:52 <ehird> 00:02 sproingie: mmmKAY
00:03:08 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:03:35 <ehird> Sgeo[College]: one perl person finds it stupid, I think is more accurate
00:03:35 <ais523> well, it seems that Slashdot achievements are here to stay
00:03:47 <ehird> ais523: achivements?
00:03:55 <ehird> also, what was /.'s ap foos?
00:04:03 <ais523> ehird: there were several
00:04:07 <ais523> but achievements were their on-site things
00:04:14 <ais523> it's basically a concept taken from MMOs
00:04:25 <ais523> http://slashdot.org/~ais523/achievements probably explains it better than I could, anyway
00:04:36 <ehird> that's gotta be not real
00:04:56 <ehird> 00:03 sproingie: my attention span isn't letting me read the texty bits
00:04:56 <ehird> 00:03 sproingie: "on april 1 2009, skynet achieved consciousness. and decided it liked pandas"
00:05:02 <ehird> Update: sproingie has severe ADHD.
00:05:04 <ais523> with Slashdot, you never know
00:05:21 <ehird> Hmm, so nothing I didn't know. #perl is not that much of a good channel.
00:05:25 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: for putting a negative tag on something
00:05:31 <ais523> many of them are really easy, it seems
00:05:43 <ais523> I wonder how many people will try to get as many as possible?
00:06:07 <ehird> http://news.php.net/php.internals/41374/uq β Wow, php guys have a good april fools for once
00:06:32 <ais523> ehird: that one's genuine
00:06:40 <ais523> I've known about it for a while, anyway
00:06:53 <ehird> That was a gale-force wind trying to go over your head but knocking you over instead.
00:09:35 <ehird> anyone have that perl script that moves the window around in waves?
00:10:17 <ehird> 00:09 Limbic_Region: sparc - no, you should be prematurely worrying about optimization
00:11:14 <ais523> also, wow at the other choices they considered for namespace separators
00:11:47 <ehird> [16:09:18] <@CelloG> i.e. foo::bar might be a short name - class foo, method bar, but it could also be a long name, function foo::bar
00:11:48 <ehird> [16:09:25] <@CelloG> and the engine just assumes it is a short name
00:11:49 <ehird> [16:09:36] <@CelloG> and that is why :: is fatally flawed as a separator
00:11:53 <ehird> YOUR IMPLEMENTATION SUCKS
00:12:27 <ais523> oh, I see the problem, namespaces and classes are separate in PHP
00:12:56 <ais523> still, Perl used to use ' as a namespace separator
00:13:09 <ais523> IIRC it's still accepted for backwards compatibility
00:13:13 <ais523> although :: is more usual
00:14:27 <ais523> use Language'INTERCAL'Parser
00:14:34 <ehird> ais523: and then youc an do
00:14:40 <ehird> Language'INTERCAL'Parser->new()?
00:14:45 <ehird> > _______________________________________________ <
00:15:09 <ais523> use Language'INTERCAL'Parser;
00:15:11 <ais523> my $x = Language'INTERCAL'Parser->new();
00:15:12 <ais523> Usage: new Language::INTERCAL::Parser(SYMBOLTABLE) at - line 2
00:15:14 <ais523> the last line is perl's output
00:15:29 <ais523> VHDL still uses ' to extract metadata from things
00:15:32 <ais523> and also as a cast operator
00:16:01 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
00:16:12 <ais523> write (l, String'("Hello world!"));
00:16:18 <ais523> <--- a line from the standard VHDL hello world
00:18:08 <ais523> oh, and /also/ to delimit characters
00:18:30 <ais523> the other use is, for instance a'lower to get the lower bound of array a
00:18:34 <ehird> After a lot of research, I discovered the third one was in
00:18:34 <ehird> fact Baudot (the INTERCAL variety, I believe)
00:18:42 <ehird> how come coppro knows everything?
00:18:55 <ehird> maybe he's secretly CADIE
00:19:08 <ais523> well, the only Baudot encoder/decoder I know of is the one that comes with C-INTERCAL
00:19:16 <ais523> oh, and CLC-INTERCAL itself, ofc
00:19:27 <ais523> it's a 19th-century encoding, after all
00:21:07 <ais523> anyway, that Baudot was a polygolt
00:21:17 <ais523> between the traditional and INTERCAL versions
00:21:27 <ais523> why have one when you can have both?
00:21:56 <ehird> ais523: hmm, do you know coppro, perchanc?
00:23:46 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:24:12 <ehird> I think cadie's committed suicide or something.
00:24:31 <ais523> maybe they switched her off
00:24:41 * kerlo goes to google.co.uk to check on the ehird version of CADIE
00:24:54 <ais523> hmm... google's pretty slow atm
00:24:57 <ehird> fun fact: I am the only brit
00:25:40 <kerlo> Actually, there are seven Brits. ehird is one, and the six others make up the entirety of the BBC.
00:25:56 <ehird> kerlo: they just swap costumes a lot?
00:26:03 <ehird> also, where will i work when I grow up? The BBC?
00:26:31 <ehird> kerlo: seven brits is more than the 3 finns
00:26:38 <ehird> (of which 5 or 6 are in here; I forget
00:27:16 <kerlo> Actually, I'm mistaken. There are seven people at the BBC, but one isn't officially a member; she just joins them whenever they need an attractive female, because all the actual BBC members are male.
00:28:00 <ais523> Con: INTERCAL extensions such as threading and operator overloading are non-standard and poorly tested, and may therefore have broad unforeseen side effects.
00:28:02 <ais523> Pro: INTERCAL extensions such as threading and operator overloading are non-standard and poorly tested, and may therefore have broad unforeseen side effects.
00:28:04 <ais523> I love that style guide
00:28:14 <kerlo> Also, one of the BBC members is dead.
00:28:34 <ais523> kerlo: am I ehird, or am I at the BBC?
00:28:48 <ais523> I hope I'm not ehird, that would be worrying
00:28:53 <kerlo> ais523: chances are you're at the BBC.
00:28:58 <ehird> ais523: sorry you had to find out this way
00:29:00 <ehird> you're the unifier
00:29:03 <ehird> you're both me, and at the BBC
00:29:10 <ehird> it helps to keep the two realities in bind
00:29:19 <ehird> sort of, subatomic reality glue
00:29:40 <kerlo> ais523 is the female.
00:30:05 <ehird> if you measure the female over time she turns out to be indistinguishable to me at micro levels
00:30:10 <ehird> even though we are separate at the macro levels
00:30:11 <oerjan> i take it you take turns playing the Doctor?
00:30:29 <ehird> http://googleappengine.blogspot.com/2009/04/brand-new-language-on-google-app-engine.html
00:30:34 <ehird> FORTRAN 77 on app engine
00:31:10 <ehird> thanks to CADIE, ofc
00:32:07 <ais523> you have to mail them punch cards to submit the code, though
00:32:34 <ehird> "Checking the HTTP header for google.com today, you will find itβs run by βELIZAβ, βWOPRβ, βIIS/3.0β, βGoogle Operating System (BETA)β or similar... perhaps depending on the time youβre checking"
00:32:53 <ais523> that IIS is very worrying
00:33:36 <ehird> "Googleβs image album software Picasa now comes with a special βAuto Red Eyeβ functionality for version 4.1 (it turns normal eyes into red eyes). I was only able to see this on the Picasa homepage when using a US proxy. "
00:34:06 <ais523> they added an option to google code search to search for programs in lolcode
00:34:32 <ais523> oerjan: Microsoft's webserver
00:34:54 <ais523> losing out quite badly to Apache in terms of market share
00:36:05 -!- sebbu has joined.
00:36:46 <ehird> How did you get started as a designer of programming languages?
00:36:46 <ehird> Ken Iverson showed me APL in 1969 when I was 11.
00:36:52 <ehird> β Kx systems (K developers) ceo
00:37:25 <kerlo> Did APL invent the term "programming language"?
00:37:58 <ais523> kerlo: that's a seriously great question
00:38:04 <ais523> I'd never even thought in those terms before
00:38:10 <ais523> it's such a pity the answer is no, actually
00:39:00 <ehird> http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/04/01/deluge_of_browser_security_issues_drives_mass_migration.html
00:39:05 <ehird> Non-lynx browsers are dead, Netcraft confirms it.
00:39:18 <ais523> netcraft did indeed confirm it
00:39:22 <ais523> but does that make it true?
00:39:29 <ehird> Just ask any Slashdot troll!
00:39:42 <ais523> also, that stuff about encoding shellcode into smileys, is it definitely known to be false?
00:39:55 <ais523> after all, it could be true, although would look suspicious
00:40:08 <ais523> http://blog.cr0.org/2009/04/massive-exploitation-of-instant.html
00:40:18 <ais523> of course, actually getting the smileys to run would be harder
00:40:27 <ehird> http://www.cr0.org/misc/smile.rb
00:40:41 <ehird> ais523: well, it just makes shellcode look like smilies
00:41:01 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:41:23 <ais523> oh, and the resulting smilies aren't executable
00:41:32 <ais523> smiley steganography < smiley/shellcode polyglots
00:42:02 <ehird> Three smilies and ... something.
00:42:04 <ais523> yep, that's referred to as the killer smiley sometimes
00:42:22 <ais523> the last one's someone with glasses, winking
00:42:49 <kerlo> Very small glasses that are below the eyes?
00:42:49 <ehird> Erste said that while the bank is dedicated to providing an accessible online banking experience, some customers still report difficulties when trying to make HTTPS requests through Telnet without the aid of an extended keyboard layout.
00:43:03 <ais523> kerlo: "four-eyes" is a common nickname for glasses-wearers
00:43:06 <ehird> To bolster Lynx's growing footprint in the browser market, Netcraft has released the Netcraft Toolbar for Lynx. This free add-on blends in at the top of every web page, and not only protects Lynx users against phishing attacks, but the beautiful text-based rendition of the Netcraft logo is sure to brighten anyone's day.
00:43:16 <ehird> http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/04/01/netcraft-toolbar-for-lynx-resized.png
00:43:26 <ais523> also, I tried using Lynx to access a bank website earlier today
00:43:37 <ais523> although Lynx is so garish and hard to control, I preger w3m I think
00:43:53 <ais523> maybe the first text browser you use is the one that you stick with for life
00:44:27 <ehird> w3m is sort of "gnu lynx"
00:44:42 <ais523> well, it certainly has too many features
00:44:45 <ais523> it even has tabbed browsin
00:44:55 <ais523> which I think is hilariously funny, despite being useful
00:45:33 <ehird> the real pain is links, really β you want to click links with a mouse because they're suited for that sort of addressing
00:45:56 <ehird> given a sufficiently bloated terminal.
00:45:58 <ais523> it uses some sort of terminal mouse-click layer
00:46:04 <ehird> does it work in urxvt? that terminal is excellent
00:46:05 <ais523> also, you have to click twice I think
00:46:16 <ehird> vim lets you move the cursor with one click
00:46:21 <ais523> and I don't know, I've only tried in gnome-terminal
00:46:33 <ais523> ehird: same with w3m, one click moves the cursor, the second follows the link
00:47:04 <ehird> 'moves the cursor'?
00:47:12 <ehird> oh, right, w3m lets you move around text for no reason whatsoever
00:47:22 <ais523> I find it easier than trying to use Lynx
00:47:34 <ais523> but then, I'm used to using the keyboard as a mouse
00:48:01 <ehird> i'm a pretentious mouse user
00:48:45 <ehird> pretention levels: hunt and peck keyboarder and mouser < keyboard-only hardcore 1337 h4ck3r < person who uses keyboard for typing and mouse for precise, vague and absolute addressing
00:49:19 <ais523> I mostly only use the mouse for websurfing
00:49:35 <ais523> and even then, I use w3m if I want to quickly look something up on a local html file rather than do serious surfing
00:49:40 <ais523> because it means I don't have to go to the mouse
00:49:44 <ais523> oh, I use the mouse for games too
00:50:10 <ehird> spend a week with plan 9; you can't even use up/down keys for editing (they are pgup/pgdown)
00:50:23 <ehird> just left/right, typing, and backspace (no shift-selecting, or even DEL key)
00:50:38 <ehird> it's simultaneously agonizing and enlightening
00:51:52 <ehird> Plan 9 isn't an elitist system, just an opinionated one.
00:51:59 <ehird> A very, very, very opinionated one.
00:52:10 <ehird> "Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's pointless
00:52:10 <ehird> to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and
00:52:11 <ehird> elitist. No novices asking stupid questions."
00:52:18 <ehird> ais523: `apt-cache show dwm` would you?
00:52:22 <Robdgreat> "I'm not opinionated, I'm just always right"
00:52:23 <ehird> I bet Β£50 it has a package
00:52:44 <ehird> [[maybe you should go to school and learn how to spell cuz who the fuck
00:52:44 <ehird> spells marK with a c? musta been a baby of a couple retards]]
00:52:58 <ais523> Please notice that dwm is currently customized through editing its source code, so you probably want to build your own dwm packages. This package is compiled with the default configuration and should just give you an idea about what dwm brings to your desktop.
00:53:05 <ais523> <--- partial output from apt-cache show dwm
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00:53:16 <ais523> ehird: I didn't accept the bet
00:53:57 <Robdgreat> let the record show that ais523 tacitly accepted the bet
00:54:10 <ais523> what language is dwm written in?
00:54:14 <ais523> I'm guessing C from the dependencies
00:54:27 <ais523> I was wondering about somehow smalltalkifying it so that you could edit the source while it was running
00:54:29 <ehird> ais523: it's written by the suckless.org people
00:54:41 <ehird> they're a pretentious, people-hating bunch of plan 9 addicts
00:54:46 <ehird> http://dwm.suckless.org/
00:55:05 <ehird> ais523: I think if you did such a modification they'd treat it akin to a death threat and an insult on their mother
00:55:15 <ais523> is that firefox in the foreground in that screenshot?
00:55:36 <ehird> ais523: asking consistency of them is henious.
00:55:40 <ehird> Go to your room and think about what you've done.
00:56:09 <ais523> "dwm has no Lua integration, no 9P support, no shell-based configuration, no remote control, and comes without any additional tools, such as for printing the selection or warping the mouse."
00:56:20 <ais523> I like the way that's in the feature list
00:56:31 <ehird> Yeah, they go on about that a lot: http://suckless.org/common/
00:56:59 <ais523> hmm... also, it uses mercurial as the vcs
00:57:08 <ais523> I'm disappointed, I'd expected them to use something I'd never heard of
00:57:16 <ehird> ais523: regardless of how silly they are, reading the code is nice: http://code.suckless.org/hg/dwm/file/deaa276abac1/dwm.c
00:57:23 <ehird> 1706 lines; and a lot of sane people swear by it
00:57:30 <ehird> modern-software people, that is
00:58:40 <ais523> how does that fit in with their concept of using less code rather than bad code
00:58:47 <ais523> I mean, obviously that section contains macros
00:58:58 <ais523> that's like writing x = y + 2; /* addition */
00:59:00 <ehird> ais523: send a patch just to remove those two lines
00:59:11 <ehird> they'll probably accept it and hail you as a genius in the commit messag
00:59:19 <ehird> 207 /* variables */
00:59:23 <ehird> 130 /* function declarations */
00:59:43 <ais523> 247 /* function implementations */
00:59:57 <ais523> it must have been written by COBOL programmers
01:00:11 <ais523> COBOL requires you to do that, C doesn't but they've kept the habit
01:00:39 <ehird> http://incise.org/tinywm.html i still love this wm
01:00:50 <ehird> I bet I could write a humane WM in ~500 lines
01:00:59 <ais523> ehird: [01:00] <AirRaven> IRP > Should I go to York or Manchester University next year? (U.K.)- if all else fails, mudkips or coin-flips shall suffice.
01:01:08 <ais523> how long's xmonad, by the way?
01:01:11 <kerlo> ehird's hobby is pressing the last letter of his sentence and the enter key simultaneously
01:01:25 <ais523> kerlo: I thought it was me that did that, not ehird
01:01:31 <kerlo> It works roughly half the time/
01:01:43 <kerlo> ...I'm bad at this.
01:03:20 <ais523> ehird: that dwm source is clearly golfed
01:03:28 <ais523> it's doing things like fitting entire loops into the head of a for loop
01:03:44 <ais523> which is always possible, but only used for golfing and showing off AFAIK
01:07:33 <kerlo> Anyway, kerlo's Canonical Programming Rule: The only good way to write a program is the best way to write the program.
01:08:18 <ais523> what's the canonical programming hello world, in your opinion?
01:08:44 <kerlo> Canonical Programming Rule, corollary 1: If you can think of multiple equally good ways of writing that beat all other ways of writing it, you need to come up with an even better way of writing it.
01:09:09 <kerlo> Canonical Programming Rule, corollary 2: If there are multiple best ways of writing a program, the programming language sucks.
01:09:22 <kerlo> ais523: what language?
01:10:08 <kerlo> PutStrLn "Hello, world!"
01:10:55 <ais523> what language is that?
01:11:00 <kerlo> A hypothetical language I've thought about since... a while ago.
01:12:36 <mmorrow> speaking of lines-of-code, i happened to graph loc for each lua version earlier http://moonpatio.com/lua/lua_loc.png
01:12:50 <ais523> [17:20:15] <@lsmith> ok .. this is quite unanimous .. even if we count Stas to be of the same opinion as dmitry
01:12:52 <kerlo> After I finish it, ask the Singularity to upload a description into your mind.
01:12:56 <kerlo> It'll take a while, you see.
01:13:18 <ais523> mmorrow: that's quite a lot for a lightweight scripting language
01:13:21 * kerlo decides that the best thing he could possibly do right now is read the Wikipedia page "Concept"
01:14:26 <mmorrow> ais523: the lua code is some of my favorite C code (wrt clarity/tidyness)
01:14:56 <ais523> [17:34:18] <@andrei_> hey, what about :) separator
01:15:08 <ais523> hmm... I'm not surprised they went with \ in the end
01:15:24 <ais523> kerlo: from the actual discussion between PHP devs about what char to use for namespacing
01:16:33 <ais523> apparently they had to make a decision in a hurry because it was degenerating into an emacs vs. vim holy war
01:19:49 <kerlo> Hey, I think this also solves another of my problems.
01:20:05 <ais523> what, smileys as the PHP namespace separator?
01:21:07 <kerlo> Well, either I've forgotten which problem it solves, or I've realized that it actually doesn't solve that problem.
01:23:13 <ais523> well, what was the solution, anyway?
01:23:18 <ais523> even if it's looking for a problem
01:24:36 <kerlo> Concept splitting.
01:24:57 <kerlo> If you don't know whether an item is an instance of a category or not, split the category into two categories, one containing the item and the other not.
01:25:44 <kerlo> If you forget about one category, great: you've determined that the other category is the one worth remembering.
01:26:08 <kerlo> And now, having told you that, I have to kill you.
01:26:45 <kerlo> Or at least ask you if you'll ever write or otherwise work on an AI that isn't Friendly.
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01:27:14 <Sgeo[College]> ehird: transcript of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeJ9Q40kIR0 ?
01:30:15 <kerlo> I was mainly asking ais523, you know.
01:30:29 <oerjan> that might be more important.
01:30:57 <ais523> that's how TAEB identifies items in NetHack, it's a rather limited application though
01:32:39 <ais523> unrelated to #esoteric, although it's something I work on from time to time
01:32:44 <ais523> not my project, other coders are more active on it
01:32:52 <ais523> I'm just a low-level person who helps out occasionally
01:34:03 <ais523> it's not april fool's any more, and I have no reason to lie to you about that
01:35:01 <kerlo> I want proof, not because I don't believe you, but because proofs lead to understanding that mere statements do not.
01:35:25 <kerlo> Much how the string "IO ()" is much less useful than an actual Haskell program.
01:35:29 <oerjan> kerlo: don't trust him, he could be lying about his timezone
01:35:33 <ais523> kerlo: http://sartak.org/code/TAEB/
01:36:13 <ais523> my AI branch is at http://ais523.sartak.org/TAEB-AI-Planar/
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01:41:21 <ais523> heh, http://www.sixxs.net.ipv4.sixxs.org.sixxs.org.ipv4.sixxs.org/main/ actually works
01:42:58 <ais523> wtf, I just got first post on a Slashdot article
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01:54:30 <kerlo> That URL makes me think of http://normish.org/ihope/root/var/www/ihope/root/home/ihope/root/var/www/
01:54:54 <ais523> Normish is something special, alright
01:55:32 <kerlo> Heck, a better one: http://normish.org/home/ihope/root/var/www/ihope/root/var/www/root/var/www/
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02:09:30 <Asztal_> ais523: but where's your "frost pist!" achievement? :(
02:09:49 <ais523> I hope they don't add that, it'll make things even worse
02:10:04 <Asztal_> also, http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ :)
02:11:39 <ais523> Asztal_: that code's nonportable
02:11:41 <kerlo> I want a frost pist.
02:11:55 <ais523> I wrote a fixed version, that works in both C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL
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03:11:25 <ais523> by the way, I was reading the report on voting machine security flaws that the state of Ohio commissioned
03:11:30 <ais523> some of it's really ridiculous
03:11:50 <ais523> the flaws, I mean, not the report itself
03:13:05 <ais523> they managed an all-new sort of buffer overflow I've never seen before:
03:13:08 <ais523> 288 _stprintf(&name, _T("\\Storage Card\\%s"), findData.cFileName);
03:13:24 <ais523> (TCHAR's like char, it's a single-character type)
03:15:15 <ais523> that code is even worse than gets
03:15:23 <ais523> at least there are circumstances under which gets doesn't overflow...
03:15:53 <ais523> (if AnMaster were alive, he'd probably complain that _T infringes on implementation namespace or something like that...)
03:16:38 <ais523> also, it seems that that 0x0102030405060708 is accepted as the password on one type of machine they make, even if the password's been changed
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03:31:53 <oerjan> argh, the science subreddit is _still_ in AF mode
03:32:52 <Sgeo> Is CADIE dead, or is she just elsewhere? The video suggests dead, but the blog says elsewhere
03:33:25 <oerjan> http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ still works
03:35:28 * Sgeo tried to make language accept INTERCAL
03:35:33 <Sgeo> The page just refreshed
03:36:01 <ais523> yep, it's stopped working
03:36:25 <Sgeo> You mean when you put INTERCAL in?
03:37:05 <ais523> you can enter queries but don't get replies
03:40:38 <ais523> with yet another typically INTERCAL-related response
03:41:25 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: how succinct
03:43:09 <MizardX> Heh. Tried to add an Intercal-choice in the combo-box, but when I pressed "Ask CADIE", the page just refreshed and the form was reset.
03:44:47 <Sgeo> bsmntbombdood, it reminds me of some Runescape quest
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04:11:14 <Sgeo> http://ytmnd.com/april/hehe_mix.swf
04:13:48 <kerlo> Proof that materials don't mean anything: there are stone glasses, and there are glass stones.
04:13:55 <kerlo> Though both are pretty weird.
04:15:26 <kerlo> I mean, you *could* make glasses out of stone.
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04:45:37 <lament> there're also marble stones and stone marbles, which is a little less obvious than it sounds at first
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04:49:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has set topic: topic ain't done changed since 2009-04-01 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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08:42:18 <ais523> gah, Google took down their INTERCAL style guide
08:42:36 <ais523> also, the Google cache of it isn't showing, nor is the Yahoo cache, but I saved a copy from the live.com cache, of all places
08:42:45 <ais523> first time ever that live.com has been remotely useful
08:43:20 <ais523> I had the CADIE source already, luckily
08:52:35 <AnMaster> ais523, your ick repo should be up again
08:53:32 <ais523> how are your download logs for C-INTERCAL?
08:53:41 <ais523> if it's inconvenient to get at them, don't worry
08:53:53 <ais523> I'm just mildly curious as to how popular it is
08:56:06 <AnMaster> first: almost all from http://ipv4gate.sixxs.net
08:57:01 <AnMaster> then there is me, and one other persomn
08:57:14 <ais523> how many accesses altogether?
08:57:29 <AnMaster> /usr/www/data/log $ wc -l thttpd_log
08:57:51 <ais523> not bad for just a few hours after release
08:58:12 <ais523> the old MSIE 404 favicon.ico bug strikes again
08:58:17 <ais523> I think it's been fixed nowadays
08:58:43 <ais523> AnMaster: in older versions of IE, if favicon.ico's a 404, it ends up pinging it every time you access a page on the website
08:59:30 <AnMaster> both ick downloads are from that other person with native ipv6 btw
09:00:32 * AnMaster looks in whois (which is usually quite correct for ipv6 IME)
09:01:06 <ais523> hmm... not all that useful
09:01:14 <ais523> although knowing RIPE narrows it down to one continent
09:01:39 <AnMaster> the contact addresses are both in Amsterdam
09:02:03 <fizzie> Your logs should now have another native-IPv6 entry.
09:02:15 <ais523> only Dutch INTERCALer I know, and he's pretty active in terms of submitting patches
09:02:54 <fizzie> 2607:f0d0:3001:36::dead:baba, a rather curious address.
09:03:08 <ais523> fizzie: is that yours?
09:03:22 <ais523> or are you somehow reading AnMaster's logs?
09:03:22 <fizzie> ais523: No, it's that lepton.kuonet-ng.org.
09:03:26 <AnMaster> ais523, it is that of the vps. The person who runs it was a joker.
09:04:05 <fizzie> My hit in the logs should be from 2001:1bc8:102:587b:21d:7dff:fee4:a593 I presume.
09:04:33 * ais523 wonders if anyone has memorized their own IPv6 address
09:04:45 <ais523> the proxy I used to use at the University was 147.188.147.123
09:04:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, no I don't have another native one?
09:04:57 <ais523> but nowadays I normally use wireless, so I show up elsewhere
09:05:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, I had a new one from that one in Amsterdam though
09:07:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember mine. It is ::1
09:07:27 <AnMaster> (no I don't remember my full one)
09:09:05 <fizzie> A /64 prefix is relatively easy to remember, so if you put something at prefix::1, that's not too bad either. I used to remember my 6bone prefix. I don't remember this current one, though.
09:09:46 <ais523> it's somewhat interesting that IPv6 was initially only used to create long hostmasks that spelt out words on IRC
09:11:06 <AnMaster> it's odd that SixXS handed out a /48 when you requested a subnet. Presumably it is related to making routing simpler?
09:11:39 <ais523> using lots of subnets of the same size makes routing tables smaller and simpler
09:11:58 <fizzie> Yes, and they give you a /48 so that you can do some subnetting of your own.
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09:12:04 <ais523> also, a /48 is amazingly large
09:12:11 <ais523> a /64 would be the usual size for IPv6
09:12:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't you subnet at /96 or such?
09:12:19 <ais523> anything smaller than that annoys the routers
09:12:24 <fizzie> You can't really make smaller nets than /64.
09:12:35 <ais523> so if you want to subnet something, it should be bigger than /64
09:12:43 <fizzie> The address format specifies that the last 64 bits is the node ID.
09:13:03 <fizzie> And all those stateless-autoconfig things generate EUI-64 format addresses, too, which need a 64-bit network.
09:13:19 <fizzie> I've seen a tunnel provider handing out /60s, though, which means you have 16 subnets to play with.
09:14:08 <fizzie> And if you configure things manually, at least Linux is completely happy to use smaller-than-/64-networks, it's just not pedantically-speaking correct.
09:14:11 <AnMaster> for a /48 you would have 65536 subnets right?
09:14:28 <AnMaster> assuming 2 16^p is the correct way to calculate it
09:14:45 <ais523> well, probably 65534 in practice
09:14:52 <ais523> because IIRC max and min addresses have special meanings
09:15:25 <fizzie> It's max and min addresses in a network, you can still use things like 192.168.0.5, even though there's that 0 byte in there.
09:16:20 <ais523> but would 192.168.0.0 be the min address of 129.168.0.0/16 or 129.1268.0.0/24?
09:16:23 <fizzie> So you can just as well use the 2001:1234:1234:0::/64 subnet.
09:17:00 <fizzie> Obviously it's the min address of both, and it depends on configured netmasks and such what it means.
09:17:28 <AnMaster> what does the min address mean then?
09:17:37 <AnMaster> max is multicast or something isn't it?
09:17:46 <fizzie> It's traditionally "the address of the network, not a host in it".
09:17:54 <fizzie> While all-bits-one is the broadcast address, yes.
09:18:15 <ais523> in theory, sending a packet to 255.255.255.255 sends it to the entire Internet
09:18:19 <AnMaster> what about multicast then? Isn't that "broadcast, to some hosts"
09:18:21 <ais523> in practice, any sane router will drop it
09:18:29 <fizzie> Multicast uses a separate range of addresses.
09:18:35 <fizzie> To identify multicast groups.
09:18:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, mhm and how do you mark such groups?
09:19:11 <fizzie> What do you mean, exactly?
09:19:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, no idea. I hate networking
09:19:55 <AnMaster> "<fizzie> To identify multicast groups." <-- well, how do you identify if a computer is in a group or not
09:20:10 <fizzie> There's the IGMP protocol for that.
09:20:16 <fizzie> Does group-registration and such.
09:21:54 <fizzie> Although in IPv6 the multicast stuff has been taken in ICMPv6. As was ARP.
09:22:30 <fizzie> All IPv6 multicast addresses are in the ff00::/8 block, while the IPv4 range goes from 224.0.0.0-239.255.255.255.
09:23:03 <fizzie> I guess that's 224.0.0.0/4 if I count the bits right.
09:23:44 <AnMaster> fe80:: is "link local" or something like that right? But what is the use of it?
09:25:04 <fizzie> Well, for link-local purposes. Like router-discovery and such, I think those tend to use the link-local addresses at some point.
09:25:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, this ipv6 over facebook thing hm... the page *is* still there http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=59502659200 ...
09:25:49 <fizzie> Sure, and if the statistics are correct, the app has been there for a while.
09:25:54 <ais523> it's one of those April Fool's RFCs which probably actually works, just is insane
09:26:01 <ais523> fizzie: they were testing it before releasing the RFCs
09:26:26 <fizzie> There's also the fec0::/10 prefix for "site-local" v6 addresses, presumably for rather similar use than the current private-use non-routable IPv4 addresses.
09:27:24 <AnMaster> http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=59502659200&topic=6840 <--- ?
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13:27:10 <AnMaster> btw wikipedia lists http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5513 too as a joke rfc this year (yes it lists the facebook one too)
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16:41:17 <ehird> anyone know an ipv6 isp in uk?
16:44:23 <fizzie> http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=native&country=gb
16:44:56 <ehird> Bogons or Goscomb!
16:45:50 * oerjan expects the spanish vogons
16:46:05 <fizzie> I have no idea how comprehensive or accurate that list is; I know one (1) ISP in Finland who does native IPv6 to customers, and that's Nebula, and coincidentally it's also the only thing listed under the Finnish flag there.
16:46:36 <ehird> fizzie: and you're on nebula?
16:47:03 <ehird> anyway, these uk isps seem very, very obscure
16:47:05 <fizzie> Nebula were polite enough to point the reverse-DNS zone for the /64 they've assigned to me to any DNS server I wanted; that's some good service. The network in the student apartments of my university also does native IPv6, but there are no reverse-DNS entries there.
16:47:10 <ehird> How many IP addresses?
16:47:10 <ehird> Normally a company would received 1208925819614629174706176 addresses to cover up to 65536 sites.
16:47:14 <ehird> that's rather gung-ho
16:47:35 <ehird> fizzie: nice; Orange are in the business of assraping their customers with restrictions
16:48:02 <ehird> thing that irritates me:
16:48:08 <ehird> calling hosting services isps
16:48:11 <ehird> yes, it's technically correct
16:48:14 <ehird> no it is not helpful!
16:48:36 <ehird> Broadband services from Andrews & Arnold Ltd are aimed at the technical and professional customer. We cater for home users right up to large corporate users. Most of our customers are reasonably technical or purchase via an IT consultant/dealer. The services we offer are not the fast food of broadband - we have a range of specialist options including blocks of IP addresses at no extra cost, reverse DNS delegation, IPv6 services, bonded lines with fast fa
16:48:38 <ehird> llback, and much more. We also pride ourselves in having technically competent support staff based in our UK offices.
16:48:41 <ehird> yarr, this sounds hot
16:48:44 <oerjan> which is strange since norway was listed in a wp article as having among the top relative penetrators
16:48:57 <ehird> Our Professional service starts from as little as Β£20.50 pcmβ (Β£17.83+VAT) including 2GB peak download allowance, so can easily be used by more demanding home users. Professional customers can pick a tariff that matches their needs. The professional service includes a free ADSL2+ ethernet router, fixed IP address blocks, IPv6, a UK domain, web space, and IMAP email (with spam and virus checking).
16:49:06 <ehird> well 2gb download allowance is shite
16:49:11 <ehird> and I don't need the domain/webspace/email
16:49:23 <ehird> Our broadband services are provided using ADSL2+ were possible which allows up to 24Mb/s downlink and up to around 1Mb/s uplink. When not possible we provide using ADSL1 which allows up to 8.128Mb/s downlink and up to 448Kb/s uplink (832Kb/s with the premium option). These speeds are the maximum line rate and depend on the line legth and quality. The availability checker can give an indication of likely downlink speed. We upgrade ADSL1 lines to ADSL2+ wh
16:49:25 <ehird> en possible as part of the 21st Century Network upgrade. Details
16:49:40 <ehird> okay, so if only there wasn't a 2gb download allowance that'd be awesome
16:49:56 <ehird> Peak period download per month.
16:49:56 <ehird> Peak period is 9am-6pm Mon-Fri.
16:50:01 <ehird> Off Peak allowance100GB
16:50:04 <ehird> well that's stupid
16:50:14 <ehird> so 9am-6pm i'm only allowed to d/l 2gb.
16:50:24 <ehird> All other times except night (2am-6am) which is unmetered.
16:50:27 <ehird> this is kind of fucked up
16:50:55 <ehird> i mean, it has everything, i just wish it didn't have the stupid bw limit
16:51:37 <ehird> "A byte is 8 bits of data which is normally one character. A gigabyte or GB is 1,000,000,000 bytes (not to be confused with a Gibibyte or GiB which is 1,073,741,824 bytes)"
16:51:43 <ehird> you're full of shit, andrews & arnold.
16:51:58 <Slereah> Well, technically, it's correct
16:52:04 <Slereah> It's just that no one uses gibi
16:52:35 <fizzie> Gibibibibii! Sounds like a pokey-mon or something.
16:52:47 <ehird> but seriously they give you a decent router and ipv6 and whatnot and the speed looks great
16:52:50 <oerjan> with a terrifying gibibite
16:52:56 <ehird> but 2gb peak allowance?
16:53:03 <ehird> that's like... giving you a rocket and telling you to only fly at 3mph
16:53:26 <ehird> http://www.bogons.net/
16:53:35 <ehird> I SHALL LOOK UP THE "BOGONS"
16:53:41 <oerjan> i suspect pokemons don't bite though, would not be family friendly
16:54:26 <ehird> oerjan: err, they knock each other out and seriously injure them with massive electric attacks and shit
16:54:29 <ehird> I think biting is pretty tame
16:54:33 <Slereah> But it's been... ten years since I played
16:54:40 <ehird> oh you mean the game
16:54:45 <ehird> some have a bite attack
16:54:49 <ehird> I was talking about the shitty show
16:54:51 <ehird> "* Static IP address if required "
16:55:07 <ehird> "* Multicast and/or IPv6 routing over ADSL "
16:55:14 <ehird> "* No enforced transfer cap (subject to reasonable usage) "
16:55:20 <Slereah> I seem to recall biting in the movie
16:55:35 <ehird> ok, bogons sounds fuckin' awesome
16:56:11 <oerjan> ehird: just beware of the clause where they reserve the right to blow up the earth for their information superhighway
16:56:19 <ehird> http://www.enta.net/Customer_Products/Data_&_Connectivity_Products/Broadband/ β yawn, no thx
16:57:09 <ehird> Do you restrict access to any Bit torrents/news sites?
16:57:10 <ehird> IDNet do not restrict access to any sites or ports etc.
16:57:23 <ehird> the fact that they explicitly state that is nice
16:57:40 <ehird> I might email the v^Hbogons to ask if they filterz
16:58:40 <ehird> idnet home supermax http://www.idnet.net/solutions/home/broadband/
16:58:49 <ehird> vs bogons adsl http://www.bogons.net/
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16:59:50 <ehird> random opinions welcome, I'd like to escape this shithole of an esp
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17:43:55 <ehird> http://redsnake.me/
17:52:38 <ehird> Bogons vs idnet is looking good right now.
18:04:15 <ehird> <!--> <font size="-2">Did you know that <b>your Browser is <em>buggy</em></b>: it can't parse comments correctly.</font> -->
18:37:04 <Asztal_> <!-- -- --->ERROR<!- ------ >
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18:39:16 <Asztal_> the ERROR part may actually be commented, depending on whether or not you live in 1999 or 2005 or elsewhen
18:48:46 <ehird> PRETEND TO SWIM WHY DON'T YOU JIM
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20:31:11 <ehird> I think I just solved syntax.
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20:42:16 <kerlo> The syntax of what?
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22:20:16 <ehird> fizzie: Mr ip wizard, "/29 or /30" will mean ipv4 rite?
22:21:04 <fizzie> Most likely, yes. Those are pretty small blocks.
22:21:31 <ehird> Yar. I'm deciding between http://bogons.net/ and http://idnet.net/, both of which look more or less perfect.
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22:22:10 <fizzie> Especially since generally the all-bits-0 and all-bits-1 nodes are kept as the network address and the broadcast address, respectively, so a /30 would have just two usable addresses.
22:22:56 <ehird> (Enta) IPStream Max (up to 8M)100kbps448kbpsΒ£60.00Β£35.00
22:23:03 <ehird> That 100kbps second is the download spede column.
22:23:07 <ehird> Yet it says up to 8M?
22:23:51 <fizzie> I think our student housing network had a costs-a-bit add-on service to get your own non-DHCP-allocated /29 (so six hosts) block.
22:24:19 <Deewiant> Well, they do have a /16 of their own.
22:24:35 <ehird> Bogons give you a static ipv6 address with yer own reverse dns so that's just fiiine by m
22:24:37 <Deewiant> (Assuming you're referring to TKY.)
22:24:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: You mean TKY? The old Trinet block at least was just a /20.
22:25:13 <fizzie> I don't really know about the new one. TKK has a /16 block of its own.
22:25:38 <fizzie> ehird: The student union. Acronym of the finnish name.
22:25:40 <ehird> I got a personal reply from Bogons with techy details, which was nice. Delivered via RT too.
22:26:16 <fizzie> I had a map somewhere...
22:26:22 <ehird> say, about that dead:baba ipv6 address - is there liek a service to get a custom one you specify or sth?
22:26:24 <ehird> like license plates
22:26:42 <fizzie> If you have your own network, you can number the nodes any way you like.
22:27:18 <fizzie> Although the stateless autoconfig stuff uses automatically generated addresses that are <first 3 bytes of Ethernet MAC>-ff:fe-<last 3 bytes of MAC>.
22:27:23 <ehird> The good ol' I Have Gratuitous Amounts Of Money option.
22:28:09 <ehird> Why don't OSes come with a dns resolver?
22:28:14 <ehird> I don't see why it's done remotely.
22:29:09 <fizzie> Might be to cut down traffic a bit, so that just the ISP's ns has to wonder where google.com is.
22:30:05 <ehird> fizzie: Well, sure, but it seems like it'd be much, much faster.
22:30:21 <ehird> I doubt it'd be hard to handle the traffic considering how powerful networks are nowadays
22:30:41 <fizzie> The root servers would have a lot more work to do; I think they have quite a lot as-it-is.
22:31:05 <ehird> fizzie: i wonder what the root servers run on
22:31:10 <ehird> probably a mega-optimized bsd
22:31:21 <fizzie> Not sure about speeds, either, since now you can just ask a very nearby server, and it probably knows the answers already, since everyone else's asking about the same things; you don't have to start from the root.
22:31:35 <ehird> fizzie: after using it a while it should be a lot faster, no?
22:31:41 <ehird> since cache retrieval would be instant
22:32:11 <fizzie> Well, yes, caching would be a good idea. I have my local BIND configured so that it forwards all queries to the ISP's server if it doesn't know the answer offhand.
22:32:19 <ehird> http://www.root-servers.org/ Poor greenland.
22:32:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, I foundeded the (IPv4) map: http://zem.fi/trinet/trinetmap.html
22:32:49 <Deewiant> dig reports around 7 milliseconds on average
22:33:32 <Deewiant> Lot of addresses for those houses
22:33:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: That might be obsoleted already a bit, since I did that back when they updated the network. They might have changed stuff.
22:33:48 <ehird> "2. As root, create UNIX accounts named Gdnscache and Gdnslog. "
22:33:54 <ehird> oh fuck, time for djb to lecture me about how to run a fuckin' unix system
22:34:34 * ehird tries to use local djbdns
22:34:59 <ehird> Hmm, root lookups are quite slow aren't they?
22:35:03 <ehird> As in 30 seconds and still going.
22:35:26 <ehird> Guess I fucked up.
22:35:35 <fizzie> Dnsmasq is probably the cheapest choice if you want a caching-only local DNS thing. (Although it comes integrated with a DHCP server, which might be pretty useless.)
22:36:10 <fizzie> I think I've seen dnsmasq used in some of those Linux-based routery devices too.
22:36:12 <ehird> "8. Set up a public web page saying that your DNS cache is powered by djbdns, so that a Google search for powered djbdns will find your page in a few months. These public statements will encourage other people to deploy djbdns, provide djbdns support services, and develop djbdns-related tools. Please also consider making a donation to the Bernstein Writing Fund."
22:36:18 <ehird> Go fuck yourself, bernstein
22:36:34 <Deewiant> What's wrong with asking people to help?
22:36:49 <ehird> Deewiant: I just like insulting Bernstein because he's pretentious
22:37:10 <ehird> "To install djbdns, ..." GO TO HELL BERNSTEIN
22:38:07 <Deewiant> Give me an obscure domain to lookup, I want something that takes longer than 5ms
22:38:24 <ehird> Deewiant: eso-std.org.
22:38:37 <ehird> That's domain squatters for you
22:38:43 <ehird> Deewiant: agoranomic.org
22:39:00 <Deewiant> I wonder if anything breaks 200
22:39:42 <ehird> Are you gay? Are you a nigger? etc.
22:40:38 <ehird> Deewiant: what about 2ch.net
22:40:44 <ehird> in japan everything is slow.
22:41:05 <Deewiant> I'm trying to think of something .cn and failing
22:41:55 <Deewiant> Is India slower or faster, I wonder
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22:42:58 <Deewiant> foo.in was below 100, bar.in got no answer and took 850
22:43:04 <fizzie> If you're curious, you can often "dig @server -c ch -t txt version.bind" to find out what a DNS server's running; often even if it's not BIND. Although a lot of people do disable that feature, too.
22:43:29 <Deewiant> version.bind.0CHTXT"This space intentionally left blank"
22:43:50 <Deewiant> version.bind.0CHTXT"NSD 2.3.7"
22:44:39 <ehird> % sudo svstat /opt/local/var/svscan/service/dnscache
22:44:39 <ehird> /opt/local/var/svscan/service/dnscache: up (pid 97416) 15 seconds
22:44:49 <ehird> Deewiant: Any root servers running djbdns?
22:45:08 <Deewiant> Maybe one of these sneaky ones :-P
22:45:17 <ehird> they're so ashamed
22:45:30 <ehird> % dnsq a www.aol.com 127.0.0.1
22:45:33 <ehird> Let's see if it works this time
22:45:45 <ehird> Dayum this is slow.
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22:46:04 <ehird> ok, it doesn't seem to be _doing_ anything
22:46:41 <ehird> ' and if your DHCP client cannot be configured to discard external DNS cache information'
22:46:45 <Deewiant> Most appear to run bind (9.2 through 9.4), two NSD (2.3.7 and 3.0.5), one VGRS4
22:47:20 <Deewiant> One blank, one times out for that request, one with that email address, one "intentionally left blank"
22:48:53 <fizzie> I wouldn't be too surprised if djbdns came with the version info disabled by default.
22:49:25 <ehird> How irritating, I wonder how to ix this
22:50:31 <fizzie> It's a funny query; the "-c ch" means dns record class Chaos, for Chaosnet; normally just about any request is for class IN (Internet).
22:51:22 <ehird> fizzie: what's a funny query?
22:51:31 <fizzie> The version.bind. one.
22:52:18 <fizzie> After all, they can't really use an Internet DNS name of "version.bind", I'm sure we'll end up with a .bind TLD sooner or later. Using a Chaosnet name is rather cleverness.
22:53:33 <ehird> How did you set up your local bind, fizzie?
22:53:40 <ehird> Wanna figure out what I did wrong.
22:55:20 <fizzie> Well, mostly I just have: acl "local" { local; networks; here; }; ... options { ... listen-on { all; private; IPv4; addrs; }; allow-query { "local"; } recursion yes; forwarders { isp's; dns; server; ips; }; ... }; -- and that's about it.
22:55:32 <ehird> fizzie: I didn't mean how you set up the bind in particular
22:55:37 <ehird> I meant how did you then test it
22:55:44 <ehird> Because I'm just getting timeouts
22:56:33 <fizzie> Can you do something like "dig @ns.google.com a google.com" and get results on the box you're running the name server on?
22:56:53 <fizzie> If not, it might be that your friendly ISP is filtering outgoing DNS that's not directed to their nameserver. :p
22:57:28 <ehird> So my ISP is sane in that respect.
22:57:42 <ehird> Then % dig @127.0.0.1 a google.com... and... silence.
22:57:52 <ehird> ;; connection timed out; no servers could be reached
22:58:12 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you setting up a local bind?
22:58:19 <ehird> AnMaster: a local djbdns.
22:58:21 <ehird> and because I want to.
22:58:32 <AnMaster> You said "too much work" and such before
22:58:41 <ehird> I do things that require too much work when I am bored.
22:58:57 <fizzie> That's rather strange. Maybe you could "netstat -nlp" or something to check whether your djbdns is actually listening?
22:59:04 <ehird> AnMaster: djbdns's dnscache server
22:59:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I would use dnsmasq for that. Or bind.
22:59:20 <ehird> fizzie: what would the protocol name be?
22:59:24 <ehird> AnMaster: what's wrong with using dnscache?
22:59:59 <ehird> fizzie: er, can you tell I've never used netstat?
23:00:02 <AnMaster> just dnsmasq almost works out of box (read through a config and edit an option or two, start daemon
23:00:06 <fizzie> The /etc/services name here is "domain".
23:00:22 <fizzie> ehird: Of course if this is OS X netstat, it'll have a different syntax.
23:00:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> fizzie: er, can you tell I've never used netstat? <-- :D
23:00:34 <ehird> Usage:netstat [-AaLlnW] [-f address_family | -p protocol]
23:00:34 <ehird> netstat [-gilns] [-f address_family]
23:00:43 <ehird> Well, I don't see why that wouldn't work.
23:00:48 <ehird> I could just nmap myself. :-D
23:01:00 <fizzie> Everyone's netstat seems to be rather different. Just "netstat -nl" is probably enough.
23:01:02 <ehird> no command, AnMaster
23:01:19 <ehird> Discovered open port 53/tcp on 127.0.0.1
23:01:24 <ehird> PORT STATE SERVICE
23:01:24 <ehird> 53/tcp open domain
23:01:31 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? It is bshish though, so I thought it would make sense on OS X
23:01:32 <fizzie> The "-nlp" was for Linux's netstat, for which "-p" means "show PID and program name for whatever's there".
23:02:21 <fizzie> Anyway, that sure sounds like it's listening; strange that it doesn't want to talk to you. Maybe start it with enough debugging and verbosity flags, then.
23:02:56 <ehird> Initiating Service scan at 23:02
23:02:56 <ehird> Scanning 2 services on localhost (127.0.0.1)
23:03:15 <ehird> fizzie: Maybe it's talking to me but it can't find anything.
23:04:03 <fizzie> Well, that's possible, of course. Although since you do DNS queries yourself, I see no reason why dnscache couldn't.
23:04:22 <ehird> Stats: 0:01:02 elapsed; 0 hosts completed (1 up), 1 undergoing Service Scan
23:04:22 <ehird> Service scan Timing: About 50.00% done; ETC: 23:03 (0:00:11 remaining)
23:04:25 <ehird> Something is horribly wrong here.
23:04:36 <ehird> PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION
23:04:37 <ehird> 53/tcp open domain?
23:05:05 <ehird> % telnet 127.0.0.1 53
23:05:05 <ehird> Trying 127.0.0.1...
23:05:06 <ehird> Connected to localhost.
23:05:08 <ehird> Escape character is '^]'.
23:05:17 <ehird> I might need to learn dns.
23:05:33 <ehird> I'm sure 'look up google.com' can't be hard.
23:05:51 <fizzie> Well, you can talk DNS over TCP too.
23:05:58 <ehird> Well, no I can't :-)
23:06:01 <fizzie> Normally it's done only for zone transfers, though.
23:06:17 <fizzie> I wonder if they're still doing that DNS-based DDOSing that's been very popular lately. At least my DROP rule for that has seen 298K packets since I last reloaded the iptables rules.
23:07:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, zone transfers in djbdns are different iirc
23:07:48 <fizzie> Yes, I seem to recall too that it did something different.
23:08:33 <ehird> Anyone know how to speak DNS?
23:08:51 <fizzie> It's a rather binary protocol, not too comfortable to speak manually.
23:12:03 <ehird> Well, I can connect.
23:12:05 <ehird> Which is imporatnt.
23:12:22 <fizzie> With a normal program you could just run it with some sort of "don't daemonize, absurdly verbose output" command line options to see what's happening, but I have no idea how to do something like that to dnscache.
23:13:03 <ehird> It uses djb's wacky daemon runner thing.
23:13:21 <fizzie> Yes. Well, there should be some sort of log file. Wanna bet it's empty?
23:14:05 <ehird> It just says it started up.
23:14:36 <ehird> @4000000049d531bd380b501c starting
23:14:37 <ehird> @4000000049d535b439b2b2d4 tcpopen 00000000000000000000ffff7f000001:cd55
23:14:39 <ehird> @4000000049d535b439c3b64c tcpclose 00000000000000000000ffff7f000001:cd55 connection reset
23:14:43 <ehird> djbdns, you doofus.
23:14:46 <ehird> I don't have ipv6.
23:15:08 * ehird checks dnscache/root/servers/@
23:15:14 <fizzie> That looks like a ipv6-mapped ipv4-address, though; ::ffff:127.0.0.1, to be exact.
23:15:14 <ehird> Hmm, it's just ipv4 addresses
23:15:19 <AnMaster> 00000000000000000000ffff7f000001?
23:15:40 <ehird> Right, it's just me.
23:15:54 <AnMaster> ehird, @4000000049d535b439b2b2d4 is a timestamp
23:15:55 <ehird> Okay, so we're having TCP acknowledgment.
23:16:10 <ehird> Can you make dig, uh,
23:16:15 <fizzie> Some dual-stacked systems do so that if you listen on the wildcard ipv6 socket, you get also ipv4 connections using that funky mapped format.
23:16:44 <fizzie> It's a +tcp somewhere in the command line.
23:16:56 <ehird> +[no]vc (TCP mode)
23:16:56 <ehird> +[no]tcp (TCP mode, alternate syntax)
23:17:04 <ehird> % dig @127.0.0.1 -4 +vc google.com
23:17:07 <ehird> We have successory.
23:17:13 <ehird> ;; Query time: 1103 msec
23:17:21 <ehird> ;; Query time: 1532 msec
23:17:25 <ehird> It is the slow at first.
23:17:39 <ehird> OK, it's tcp vs udp.
23:17:47 <ehird> So something's up with udp port 56.
23:17:53 <ehird> The question is, what.
23:18:22 <ehird> This is really odd.
23:18:28 <ehird> I wonder what's up with it.
23:18:32 <fizzie> Yes. Your system is the odd.
23:19:25 <ehird> Yes, Linux is wooing me atm.
23:19:59 <fizzie> Hm, that DNS-DDOS doesn't seem *so* popular any more; I reset those counters more than 15 minutes ago, and haven't seen a single incoming packet.
23:20:30 <ehird> I'm not too sure I like this 100msec initial lookup thing.
23:20:51 <ehird> Heh, my router doesn't seem to do tcpy dns.
23:20:54 <ehird> % dig +vc en.wikipedia.org [hang]
23:21:26 <ehird> fizzie: Got an obscure domoniker?
23:26:16 <ehird> Anyhooways, it is annoying having a choice between two equals,.
23:45:09 <ehird> "Brandon Butterworth is a Principal Technologist in the BBC's research and development team and the man who first registered the bbc.co.uk domain"
23:45:21 <ehird> That's the guy that responded to the question I asked bogons.net
23:46:02 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.bogons.net/ resolves for me.
23:46:15 <ehird> bogons.net doesn't resolve
23:46:24 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it'll be how they've set up their servers
23:46:27 <ehird> since they're an isp
23:46:29 <ehird> a separate webserver
23:46:43 <ehird> it's annoying but understandable
23:46:56 <AnMaster> ehird, why have it not resolve
23:47:03 <ehird> because it didn't cross their minds?
23:47:04 <AnMaster> they could do a CNAME or A record
23:47:06 <ehird> anyway they're one of the isps i'm considering
23:47:18 <ehird> they do ipv6, don't have bandwidth limits, don't shape traffic
23:47:22 <ehird> and give you a static ip for free
23:47:42 <ehird> I asked whether they shaped traffic and got a technical response from the guy who first registered the BBC's domain.
23:47:46 <ehird> So that is pretty awesome.
23:48:22 <AnMaster> "We have over 15 years experience of the Internet - dating from the start of the Internet in the UK in 1989. If you feel that your clue level isn't quite high enough to do-it-yourself yet,"
23:49:05 <ehird> the other isp i'm considering is http://www.idnet.net/, but I'm leaning more to bogons now for the techness and smallness.
23:49:19 <ehird> AnMaster: are you sure xs4all does ipv6?
23:49:26 <ehird> I suppose they might, I'm just not aware of it
23:49:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well they do newszilla6.xs4all.nl (free for sixxs customers too!)
23:50:03 <AnMaster> somehow I then doubt they don't do ipv6 elsewhere...
23:50:24 <ehird> I wonder if bogons provides usenet
23:51:53 <ehird> AnMaster: heh, bogons is hard to google
23:51:56 <ehird> it's an internet-related term
23:52:01 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogon_filtering
23:52:56 <ehird> they charge Β£10 more a month for 800Kbps upload
23:53:03 <ehird> Surely it can't be that different?
23:54:05 <ehird> I like how bogons don't bundle a shitrouter though
23:54:10 <ehird> I can get a linksys and put openwrt on it
23:54:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd prefer if they bundled a Cisco for those Β£10
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23:55:00 <ehird> I've always heard recommendations for linksys
23:55:21 <AnMaster> ehird, high end? More expensive?
23:55:32 <ehird> cisco owns linksys
23:55:47 <ehird> linksys.com redirects to http://www.linksysbycisco.com/
23:56:12 <ehird> That'd be a pain to get working... vs something like openwrt
23:56:13 <AnMaster> ehird, my router. A pentium 3, running openbsd
23:56:20 <ehird> AnMaster: That's not a "router".
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23:56:58 <ehird> how do you plug it into the phoneline?
23:57:05 <ehird> I don't recall what cable it is, I'll go check
23:57:16 <AnMaster> switch - openbsd router - adsl modem - phone
23:57:16 <ehird> Wait, it's just ethernet isn't it?
23:57:30 <ehird> AnMaster: most modern routers have an adsl modem built in
23:57:35 <AnMaster> yes ethernet all the way except modem-phone which is special cable
23:58:09 <ehird> http://www.linksysbycisco.com/UK/en/products/Routers β I like how they're all oh-so-stylish up to the WAP54G, when they turn into megauglys.
23:59:36 <ehird> http://www.linksysbycisco.com/UK/en/products/WRT54GL
23:59:41 <ehird> Compatibility: two windows logos
23:59:53 <ehird> Minimum Requirements
23:59:53 <ehird> Internet Explorer 6.0 or Firefox 1.0 or Higher for Web-based coniguration
23:59:57 <ehird> Windows 2000, XP, or Vista
23:59:59 <ehird> Network Adapteror Wireless Network Adapter
00:02:02 <ehird> AnMaster: so, how surprising is it on the scale of 1 to 10 that i'm considering switching to pcs and ENTERPRISE LUNIX OPERATING SYSTEM(TM)
00:02:11 <ehird> I'm just trying to weigh up my remaining sanity
00:02:46 <AnMaster> ehird, is fractional values allowed?
00:02:54 <ehird> AnMaster: s/is/are/; yes.
00:03:27 <AnMaster> well, 8.43182 or so. +/-1.127825
00:03:35 <ehird> I was expecting 11.9
00:04:00 <oerjan> <ehird> "To install djbdns, ..." GO TO HELL BERNSTEIN
00:04:14 <oerjan> i think that's a bit much just to install djbdns
00:04:22 <AnMaster> ehird, so are you considering it?
00:04:45 <ehird> if i'm getting an isp that lets me do what i want served via a router that lets me do what I want that runs on an OS that lets me do what I want...
00:04:50 <ehird> well, I guess my computer should let me do what I want too.
00:04:52 <oerjan> unless it comes with a world domination feature
00:05:07 <AnMaster> ehird, Yes. Feel the power of the dark side... Err wrong one... Come back to the light side of Linux?
00:05:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Pretty much the only thing making me hang on to OS X is the typography.
00:05:41 <ehird> I've been tweaking Ubuntu's for days in a VM and I'm still not satisfied. :D
00:06:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well personally I'd want ColorSync about 3-5 times per month
00:06:12 <ehird> Maybe I'll get a CRT; they antialias by default (by blurring everything to hell)!
00:06:22 <AnMaster> typography doesn't matter that much
00:06:25 <ehird> I've never, ever used ColorSync AnMaster. Am I weird?
00:06:28 <ehird> Also, ooh boy don't say that.
00:06:34 <ehird> Typography is paramount.
00:06:47 <AnMaster> ehird, yes for you. And probably in other cases sure.
00:06:59 <AnMaster> I just mean to me personally color syncing is more important
00:07:22 <AnMaster> ehird, because I have an expensive camera that included colour profiles on the CD?
00:07:37 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm interested in photography and so on
00:07:42 <ehird> Oh, the other thing keeping me is that, well, the hardware is sort of bulky. I'm not much a fan of bulky stuff. Some seem better though.
00:07:48 <ehird> E.g., thinkpads & thinkcentres are pretty sleek.
00:08:04 <AnMaster> ehird, you can run Linux on a mac though
00:08:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but it's kind of missing the point, isn't it? And the h/w support isn't too good.
00:08:33 <AnMaster> ehird, but I recommend a desktop that is 1-1.5 years old. Otherwise the hardware may be too new.
00:08:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm in the market for an upgrade. I can get it thousands cheaper if I buy a PC.
00:08:42 <ehird> That's a major factor.
00:08:51 <oerjan> ehird: that sounds like a weird kind of meta-honesty
00:09:13 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yes.. upgrades... Saw that video that made a joke of Apple's "I'm a mac, I'm a PC" one?
00:09:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Which one? There's thousands.
00:09:29 <oerjan> of course the papacy used it in earnest, i think
00:09:50 <AnMaster> ehird, PC got upgraded, Mac one got thrown out by next model. And that made the PC guy feel uneasy
00:09:55 <ehird> http://system76.com/ β These are sleek, too bad they only ship to the USA and canuks.
00:10:10 <AnMaster> as in hit by next Mac model guy on the back of the head.
00:10:26 <ehird> and they come with ubuntu installed
00:11:18 <AnMaster> ehird, btw about upgrades. Computer case, PSU and one of the harddrives are the only original parts in my computer. Oh and the keyboard too.
00:11:25 <ehird> I just configured an "ideal megasystem" on system76; came out to Β£1,272
00:11:29 <AnMaster> ehird, everything else have been replaced over the years
00:11:46 <ehird> That's over two thousand pounds cheaper than the Mac Pro I was looking at.
00:11:59 <AnMaster> http://www.bogons.net/ has a better design than http://www.idnet.net/ IMO
00:12:06 <ehird> Well, the mac pro was a newer processor and it was 8 cores insetead of 4, but then it was also lower ghz.
00:12:13 <ehird> AnMaster: hey, system76 comes with an ATI card...
00:12:17 <ehird> yet they pre-install 64 bit ubuntu
00:12:20 <AnMaster> ehird, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
00:12:23 <ehird> Guess they only sell ones with good d rivers?
00:12:26 <ehird> "512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3 (DVI, VGA, S-Video, DVI to HDMI, DVI to VGA) "
00:12:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I'd go nvidia or intel
00:12:48 <AnMaster> depending on how important 3D is
00:12:49 -!- Asztal_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:13:04 <ehird> AnMaster: these are really cheap, though, and come without windows cruft, and are sleek
00:13:08 <AnMaster> AMD for CPU. Soundblaster Live! 5.1 from years ago for the sound card
00:13:12 <ehird> so if the ati has good drivers, well, that's fine by me
00:13:59 <ehird> it even comes with a 26" monitor because, you know, who cares about neck strain (i am very small)
00:14:04 <ehird> (I just basically maxed it out)
00:14:20 <ehird> Now to see if I can persuade them to ship to la UK
00:15:00 <AnMaster> flash drive is included as part?
00:15:08 <ehird> Country: [Canada | United States]
00:15:11 <ehird> Damn you system 76!
00:15:26 <ehird> I wonder if there's a service where, like, you ship to a holder place and they ship to you overseas.
00:15:35 <ehird> That would be quite profitable, I imagine.
00:15:39 <AnMaster> ehird, my dream desktop: $2,598.00
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00:15:51 <ehird> AnMaster: that's pretty cheap for a dream
00:15:56 <ehird> what specs did you put on it? from where
00:16:07 <ehird> I had 8gb ram on mine too
00:16:07 <AnMaster> http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=82&osCsid=01a86245f6be36d74b29fa9819293eae
00:16:23 <ehird> 2gb radeon 4870 X2 x16 thingy
00:16:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that doesn't show your choices
00:16:46 <AnMaster> maxed on all but flash and keyboard/mouse
00:16:59 <ehird> that's what i did, but I selected kb/mouse but I'm not sure why
00:17:13 <ehird> AnMaster: There's nothing intrinsically wrong with ATI. If the drivers are OK for the ones they ship, what's the problem?
00:17:13 <AnMaster> ehird, also why on earth would I buy it that way
00:17:28 <oerjan> bah propaganda.cn doesn't have a real website
00:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird, one with two serial connectors to begin with
00:18:04 <ehird> I'm really surprised how cheap system76 are
00:18:24 <ehird> A mac pro with the same specs, roughly, would cost Β£5,000 pounds or so
00:18:29 <ehird> You can only get up to Β£1,600 or so with this
00:18:46 <ehird> AnMaster: serial? srsly?
00:18:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I use that still for some old hardware
00:19:06 <ehird> http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=29 hey, if you buy a server you can get octo-core :-D
00:19:09 <ehird> probably expensive as fuck
00:19:13 <oerjan> ehird: did you just pull that propaganda.cn domain out of your ass?
00:19:24 <ehird> 2 x Quad Core Intel Xeon E5450 3.00 GHz 1333 MHz FSB 12 MB L2 45 nm ( +$2,150.00 )
00:19:34 <oerjan> so .cn probably has squatters too, or something
00:19:52 <oerjan> i cannot manage to google it, anyhow
00:19:54 <ehird> AnMaster: maxed out eland pro pedestal or rack:
00:20:11 <ehird> nothing wrong with intel
00:20:42 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know if such a ship-and-reship service exists?
00:21:25 <AnMaster> ehird, more seriously: I had a Pentium 4 once. It permanently damaged my trust of Intel.
00:21:34 <ehird> Well yeah pentium 4s are awful
00:21:40 <ehird> But core 2s are great
00:21:52 <ehird> Every company has bad times
00:21:58 <AnMaster> ehird, Maybe. The Core 7i (or was it i7?) look worse
00:22:14 <ehird> i7 has nehalem, which looks neat, but I'm not too fussed about that any more
00:22:35 <AnMaster> ehird, A friend of mine called his i7 for "pentium 4 new edition" yesterday...
00:22:47 <ehird> AnMaster: So I guess you don't know if such a reship thingy exists?
00:23:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: do you know if such a ship-and-reship service exists? <-- hm?
00:23:17 * AnMaster tries to locate the relevant line in scrollback it refers to
00:23:27 <ehird> AnMaster: As in, system76 only ships to USA and Canada, so I wonder if a service exists where you ship to an address in the USA, then they reship it on to your international address for a (large) fee?
00:23:33 <ehird> That would be useful and also very profitable
00:24:08 <ehird> Worst case, I can ask a friend in the US to handle it, maybe
00:24:23 <ehird> AnMaster: didn't you say night an hour ago?
00:24:55 <AnMaster> I did. Bad resolve I think the technical term is?
00:25:46 <ehird> Well, system76 looks great
00:25:54 <ehird> I hate large form factors
00:25:57 <AnMaster> btw that server: You won't need monitor or such Nor DVD-RW
00:26:12 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant to use the server as a desktop machine
00:26:13 <AnMaster> a server you only use CD in once: initial install
00:26:28 <AnMaster> ehird, they don't come in quiet editions in my experience
00:26:36 <AnMaster> because no one will care in a servere room
00:26:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Hmm ... http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=81 has the specs of the higher end desktop but seems to go cheaper
00:26:56 <ehird> It doesn't have as many video card options though
00:27:08 <AnMaster> "Currently Out of Stock - Please Check Back Soon"
00:27:11 <ehird> the memory isn't ddr3
00:27:15 <ehird> 'up to 8 GB Blazing Fast DDR 3 Memory '
00:27:21 <ehird> on the higher end one
00:27:36 <ehird> http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=91 WOW is this low end
00:28:13 <ehird> AnMaster: look at the cpu specs!
00:28:15 <AnMaster> it beats both my pentium 2 and pentium 3 easily
00:28:22 <ehird> modern low end I mean
00:28:27 <ehird> I couldn't bear to work on such a machine
00:28:38 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be a thin client probably?
00:28:46 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it's meant for low-end desktop users
00:29:00 <ehird> Even my mother's computer is dual-core, though, and she just uses gmail :-P
00:29:12 <AnMaster> interesting servers have "no OS" option, but clients doesn't
00:29:26 <ehird> Well, they get a lot of publicity from the ubuntu camp
00:29:29 <AnMaster> Ubuntu 8.04 LTS Server Edition 64 bit
00:29:29 <AnMaster> Ubuntu 8.10 Server Edition 64 bit
00:29:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Long Term Support
00:29:43 <ehird> occasionally they do a release that they support for like 4 years
00:30:20 <AnMaster> ehird, mine is single core, but it was rather upper middle end in 2005
00:30:44 <ehird> The maxed out "Wild Dog" one is middle high end
00:30:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I won't buy a new CPU until I need one.
00:30:50 <ehird> Where the high end is things like nehalem 8-cores
00:30:58 <ehird> 26" KDS Widescreen LCD (1920 x 1200) ( +$380.00 )
00:31:00 <ehird> I wonder who KDS are
00:31:07 <ehird> http://www.kdsusa.com/
00:31:10 <ehird> Never heard of them
00:31:28 <ehird> Hope that Wild Dog thing has controllable fans
00:31:31 <ehird> Well, it probably does.
00:31:48 <AnMaster> ehird, real dream: Modern massively parallel Lisp machine with a real time IBM Roadrunner emulator built in
00:32:01 <ehird> My real dream is a pony.
00:32:16 <AnMaster> that's not as cool as a lisp machine
00:32:16 <ehird> Someone should install linux on a pony
00:32:27 <ehird> Like, operate on them and put computer stuff in between the organs
00:32:35 <ehird> Then boot linux on it
00:32:43 <ehird> It neighs, it boots!
00:32:58 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Roadrunner_supercomputer_HiRes.jpg
00:33:14 <ehird> Wouldn't want to dust that thing
00:33:54 <ehird> "The Roadrunner uses Red Hat Enterprise Linux along with Fedora as its operating systems "
00:34:00 <ehird> lol, I can't imagine booting fedora on that
00:34:04 <ehird> It'd be like... like... I don't know
00:34:09 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, would have to install Gentoo on it
00:34:24 <ehird> "Linus Torvalds, author of the Linux kernel, says he uses Fedora because it had fairly good support for PowerPC when he used that processor architecture. He became accustomed to the operating system and continues to use it."
00:34:30 <ehird> AnMaster: a few minutes? Seriously?
00:34:32 <ehird> It'd only take seconds.
00:34:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it is optimised for floating point stuff
00:34:43 <ehird> it's massively, massively parallel
00:34:48 <ehird> "12,960 IBM PowerXCell[6] 8i CPUs and 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-core processors"
00:34:53 <ehird> You could compile all the files at once
00:34:57 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not the point
00:35:02 <ehird> you can compile everything at once, pretty much
00:35:21 <ehird> AnMaster: regardless, KDE takes, what,an hour on a high end machine?
00:35:39 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure. Mine isn't that high end
00:35:46 <AnMaster> it takes around 4 hours on this one
00:35:56 <AnMaster> for kdelibs + kdebase + kdevelop
00:36:05 <AnMaster> which are the parts of KDE I use basically
00:36:09 <ehird> The best way to justify a purchase of an expensive new PC
00:36:17 <ehird> is to compile gcc with -j(1.5*cores)
00:36:21 <ehird> and watch it flow by
00:36:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I compiled some C++ apps on a Quad core Opetron server yesterday
00:37:03 <ehird> How does opteron match up to core 2?
00:37:10 <ehird> I guess roughly the same
00:37:22 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, you should move c-intercal
00:37:27 <ehird> gopher over ipv6 only
00:38:15 <AnMaster> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Roadrunner_supercomputer_HiRes.jpg <-- interesting warning label
00:38:17 <ehird> how do people use huge displays?
00:38:22 <ehird> don't their necks hurt :|
00:38:33 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you define huge in this case
00:38:40 <ehird> AnMaster: "If you touch a computer, it will fall down and another will take its place."
00:38:47 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I have a 20" here
00:38:50 <ehird> I mean like 26" up
00:39:03 <ehird> I guess they just have it lower down
00:39:08 <ehird> and are bigger than me :P
00:39:28 <AnMaster> ehird, btw does that mean you can hotplug modules in IBM Roadrunner?
00:39:43 <ehird> AnMaster: "meep meep"
00:39:53 <ehird> in other news, AMD renames themselves to Acme
00:40:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Wile E. Coyote, Roadrunnerβ¦
00:40:24 <AnMaster> ehird, btw see those AMD labels? Want Intel or AMD now? ;P
00:40:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Give me ten thousand of them and I'll think about it :-)
00:41:12 <AnMaster> meh. s/give/let you pay for yourself and test/ and I'm with you
00:41:28 <ehird> slicehost don't do ipv6 :-(
00:41:56 <ehird> Well, it must be said that, you know, not many people use ipv6.
00:42:01 <AnMaster> did you see the second 1 april RFC this year?
00:42:10 <ehird> It did prove to be a good way to narrow down my ISP choices, though β to include only competent ones.
00:42:56 <AnMaster> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5513
00:43:15 <ehird> For example, RFC is a TLA formed of the first letters of the
00:43:15 <ehird> phrase Rugby Football Club [URL-CARDIFF].
00:44:08 <ehird> http://system76.com/images/wild_dog_P5_large_back.jpg β Doesn't this have less than the minimum required Port Cruft for a PC?
00:44:16 <ehird> There's legal standards for PC ugliness, you know.
00:44:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yes they removed serial. Which is why it is a no-go
00:44:50 <ehird> Yeah, if you're a dinosaur :P
00:44:51 <AnMaster> also it is too wide or not tall enough
00:45:00 <ehird> No, it's just right, I hate big PCs :-D
00:45:31 <AnMaster> ehird, it wouldn't work in Europe. Observe back of power supply.
00:45:46 <ehird> AnMaster: can't you get an adapter?
00:46:08 <ehird> it'd be a shame to lose it over something so, well, trivial
00:46:11 <AnMaster> ehird, that would remove the "low power usage thingy" mentioned there though
00:46:22 <ehird> why wouldn't an adapter preserve that?
00:46:57 <AnMaster> ehird, adapters leaks in the form of heat and such. Even those built into the power supply in the computer
00:47:02 <AnMaster> add more and you get more leakage
00:47:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, if it was a good adapter it wouldnt' add too much overhead would it?
00:47:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I don't have hard figures on that. But still you will get some leakage for every adapter you add
00:48:06 <AnMaster> but couldn't you replace power supply?
00:48:12 <ehird> AnMaster: you mean internally?
00:48:17 <ehird> I'm not sure I trust myself to do that
00:48:26 <AnMaster> they aren't screws though on the back
00:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: how much do they cost?
00:48:44 <ehird> also, yes there are
00:48:50 <ehird> AnMaster: the silver things on the black border
00:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, search me. I just know I took mine out once to be able to blow away some dust
00:49:30 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of screwhead? Surface seeems even to me
00:49:44 <ehird> AnMaster: look at the top-right one
00:49:50 <ehird> there's a single horizontal line
00:50:03 <ehird> AnMaster: you'd just take it all off, no?
00:50:06 <ehird> and operate inside
00:50:19 <ehird> I'll ask my hardware-y USian friend, I guess
00:50:52 <ehird> Nice, the system76 people are on the ubuntu forums
00:51:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well on my case you remove the side of the case first, then you hold your hand under the PSU to prevent it falling down while removing the screws from the outside. in the locations of those "balls" aprox.
00:51:15 <MizardX> One big cable to the mother board. One cable to each device. Not very hard to replug if you remove it.
00:51:15 <ehird> ahh - that slow atom thing hyperthreads
00:51:51 <ehird> "Why so expensive?" on the system76 forums o_O
00:52:07 <AnMaster> ehird, make interface harder and more geeks would get highly paid
00:52:13 <ehird> AnMaster: sort of like c++/
00:52:30 <AnMaster> that's what C++ is all about indeed.
00:52:38 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/FakeIEEEStroustrupInterview.shtml
00:53:02 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I read that. I just played that reply for the dramatic effet.
00:53:15 <AnMaster> I was in fact even thinking about http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/FakeIEEEStroustrupInterview.shtml as I wrote it
00:53:49 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway keep the geeks who are good at designing noob friendly interfaces well away from any interfaces
00:54:09 <ehird> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1111781
00:54:12 <ehird> >I wanted to know if System76 planned to release any Core i7 desktops in the near future.
00:54:12 <ehird> I'm sure we probably will. We're always looking into the latest and greatest. I don't have specs or an ETA available, though.
00:54:13 <AnMaster> ehird, provide a high voltage external connector if needed
00:54:22 <ehird> Don't do that to me, guys! I can't upgrade if you're about to upgrade :-)
00:55:09 <AnMaster> truth is, it would keep me away too....
00:55:14 <ehird> So... system76 "wild dog" quad core 2.83ghz + bogons internet w/ openwrt-installed linux wireless linksys router
00:55:25 <ehird> It's like "The Metamorphisis".
00:55:35 <AnMaster> ehird, do you need that computer for bogons internet?
00:55:52 <ehird> It's a "one thing lead to another" thing.
00:55:56 <ehird> And sort of, except more "reality" than "dream".
00:56:02 <ehird> As in, "this is what I'm planning to get"
00:56:19 <AnMaster> Personal IBM Roadrunner colocated with at googleplex.
00:56:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Imagine having complete access to Google's server farm
00:56:51 <AnMaster> ehird, no, that would melt my mind
00:56:58 <AnMaster> I'd rather not try to imagine it
00:57:03 <ehird> AnMaster: so THAT's how they do their indexing!
00:57:05 <ehird> invite people to try it out
00:57:09 <ehird> they put them in a jar
00:57:13 <ehird> hook it up to the computers
00:57:18 <ehird> == amazing computing power
00:57:27 <AnMaster> ehird, it would only melt geeks' brains right?
00:57:35 <AnMaster> I mean a manager would not be affected
00:57:44 <ehird> AnMaster: no, they make it look like a windows desktop for them
00:57:51 <ehird> but whenever you open outlook or IE
00:57:55 <ehird> it turns into a really old unix system
00:57:58 <ehird> error messages all over the place
00:58:00 <ehird> huge virus warnings
00:58:06 <AnMaster> would that melt the mind of a manager?
00:58:17 <ehird> AnMaster: When the manager calls for a techie,
00:58:30 <ehird> androids supposedly infected with a virus come and yell at them.
00:58:36 <AnMaster> that techie's mind would melt...
00:58:42 <ehird> What can the manager do?
00:58:49 <ehird> Call for more techies./
00:58:55 <ehird> Then they just heat the room up so it melts.
00:59:41 <AnMaster> meh I'm almost falling asleep on keyboard. I'm going to eat some garlic (yum!) and go to sleep
01:00:04 <ehird> Garlic is a nice seasoner
01:00:45 <ehird> AnMaster: s/mind/garlic/
01:01:32 <AnMaster> ehird, and I allow bacon to coexist if you want. Maybe you could try garlic and bacon flavour
01:01:52 <ehird> But bacon is best with more bacon.
01:02:03 <AnMaster> For you ehird bacon is holy. For me it is garlic.
01:02:17 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'd say garlic is best with more garlic
01:02:31 <AnMaster> however, Swedes are known for compromises.
01:02:54 <ehird> "2.1 - Logitech X-230 - 2 Satellites, 1 Subwoofer ( +$49.00 )"
01:02:56 <AnMaster> we always try to reach some solution that isn't too bad for either side.
01:03:00 <ehird> Those speakers look nice.
01:03:15 <ehird> I have crappy internal ones atm
01:03:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't buy them. I prefer my high end headphones. AKG 240 Studio.
01:03:32 <ehird> I like speakers and headphones. It depends.
01:03:39 <AnMaster> have yet to find speakers giving as good sound as them
01:03:51 <AnMaster> the even manage bass very well.
01:04:40 <AnMaster> sv:bas means both en:base and en:bass
01:04:49 <AnMaster> which means I mix them up in English sometimes
01:04:51 <ehird> I generally prefer speakers because headphones tend to... well, the music clogs my brain.
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01:05:06 <ehird> Without the atmosphere noises & echo and whatnot that come from speakers, the sound sort of blots out other thought.
01:05:18 <ehird> So I can use headphones when just idly browsing the web and listening to music, but not really much else.
01:05:47 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. Your harddrive isn't as loud clearly :P
01:06:09 <ehird> I need my components to be near-silent.
01:06:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I wish I had that. I don't.
01:06:25 <ehird> I like the sound of ... well, not silence, just the sound of a room without any noise in it.
01:06:51 <ehird> Guess you could say my favourite song is 4'33"
01:07:06 <AnMaster> ehird, often see people working with machines with them
01:07:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earmuffs
01:07:21 <AnMaster> I heard the word "ear protector" too I think?
01:08:02 <ehird> Hey, does anyone know if you can get the BIOS to not spew info?
01:08:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I usually use mine when working with my computer
01:08:10 <ehird> I like a bootup process without lots of text.
01:08:17 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I only know how to get it to spew more
01:08:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Wow, how loud are your fans?
01:08:30 <ehird> I used to sleep next to my computer
01:08:38 <ehird> Shitty mobo, shitty cpu, <1gb of ram, shitty fans
01:08:39 <AnMaster> ehird, + I'm over-sensitive to sound
01:08:47 <ehird> And I was only a few cm away from it
01:08:49 <AnMaster> as in, I got much better than normal hearing
01:09:16 <AnMaster> ehird, so they aren't that loud to other people
01:09:26 <ehird> I have rather precise hearing.
01:09:45 <AnMaster> well I'm less gifted in the sight department
01:10:08 <ehird> I can pick out individual pixels from not-that-close to a monitor
01:10:11 <ehird> Well, not if it's high dpi
01:10:22 <ehird> I can't really watch analog tvs
01:10:25 <AnMaster> ehird, heh I can't do that unless I bend very close
01:10:27 <ehird> Too much distortion
01:10:41 <ehird> I guess you could say I'm a pedant in more than just language.
01:11:11 <AnMaster> ehird, luckily this room is too small to have the bed in, and the other room to small to have the desk in. Thus I sleep in another room where I don't hear the computer
01:11:21 <ehird> I guess it's funny that I don't really like headphones when I like post-rock
01:11:30 <ehird> Sort of contradictory there.
01:12:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I find headphones are excellent for classical music (in the wider sense too)
01:12:13 <ehird> Well, post-rock is very related to classical music.
01:12:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't really know which genre post-rock is
01:12:54 <AnMaster> as soon as it says "post" it is too new to have a proper name IMO
01:13:06 <ehird> AnMaster: It's basically classical music done with electric guitars. Tends to be a bit pretentious.
01:13:29 <AnMaster> interesting. We share that taste heh
01:13:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I like Autechre's Gantz Graf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwD05XA2YQ -- go figure.
01:13:44 <ehird> This is actually limbo.
01:14:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Post-death, between heaven and hell.
01:14:22 <ehird> The catholics are more precise about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
01:14:29 <ehird> "the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the damned"
01:14:46 <ehird> AnMaster: autechre isn't post-rock
01:14:59 <ehird> You should load that in your youtubey-thingy so you can marvel at what bad taste I have.
01:15:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> "the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the damned" <--- space constraints in hell?
01:16:36 <AnMaster> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwD05XA2YQ <-- this is music?
01:17:09 <AnMaster> so... the world _is_ comming to an end
01:17:11 <ehird> [[Sarah Dempster, writing for the NME, gave the EP a strongly negative review, claiming "It bleeps. It skronks. It krrraaaanks. But mainly, it blows like a ruddy awful hurricane." She also called it a "festering hillock of tune-shy bum-wank."]]
01:17:18 <ehird> I agree completely and I still like it :-D
01:18:01 <ehird> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Autechremax.jpg <-- This is the kind of thing the group who made that do
01:18:11 <ehird> I can't for the life of me understand a colour picker in a music application but there you go
01:18:41 <ehird> It's not safe for mind.
01:18:55 <ehird> If you consider that it purports to create music.
01:19:02 <AnMaster> but I don't know what it means
01:19:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think _they_ do
01:19:44 <ehird> They're not running
01:19:48 <ehird> Only the ones with a ^ are running
01:20:03 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a sequencing thingy used by Autechre, who made that Gantz Graf thing
01:20:08 <AnMaster> too many apps in the dock still
01:20:12 <ehird> It's in max/msp which is like visual programming for audio/video stuff
01:20:19 <ehird> And it's completely insane
01:20:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what's the colour picker for?
01:20:36 <ehird> 'Coreboot (previously LinuxBIOS) is something that our R&D department keeps an eye on. At some point in the future we may use it. However, there is a lot of testing that needs to be done before we could adopt it as a BIOS replacement. '
01:20:44 <ehird> AnMaster: one of the input parameters to it
01:20:54 <ehird> I didn't know you could install coreboot
01:21:24 <AnMaster> ehird, well you can flash it into your old BIOS
01:21:34 <ehird> AnMaster: er... what does that involve?
01:21:36 <ehird> it sounds very scary
01:22:09 <AnMaster> ehird, booting a floppy, and making sure your BIOS is removable so you can replace the chipset with a backup one if something fails
01:22:24 <ehird> oh, i was expecting like, soldering
01:23:08 <ehird> does coreboot have any advantages apart from being opensourc?
01:23:11 <ehird> like, is it faster?
01:23:17 <ehird> '- Fast boot times 3 sec. '
01:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it can boot linux faster yes
01:23:44 <AnMaster> ehird, your hardware could die if you fail it though
01:23:51 <ehird> AnMaster: 1yr warranty
01:23:58 <ehird> i guess it might not count if it's my fault :-)
01:24:02 <AnMaster> ehird, flashing bios would void warranty
01:24:19 <AnMaster> that is except official upgrades
01:24:35 <AnMaster> I flashed the BIOS on a dell once that couldn't keep it's time
01:24:37 <ehird> so 3 seconds in bios
01:24:43 <ehird> then ~20-30 sec in linux booting
01:24:50 <ehird> that'd be even faster to boot than this mac
01:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, um I got those 20 seconds down to 13 on my p3
01:25:09 <AnMaster> though I admit it doesn't start X
01:25:15 <ehird> AnMaster: doesn't count :-)
01:25:17 <AnMaster> it starts sshd and nfsd basically
01:25:39 <AnMaster> oh and syslog and cron of course
01:25:58 <ehird> Say, what's the recommended filesystem for data/os these days?
01:26:05 <ehird> ext3 for os/progs?
01:26:12 <AnMaster> ehird, oh my. Why did you ask about ise vs ize...
01:26:31 <ehird> ext3 for os/progs, and what for data?
01:27:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I use ext3 for / /boot /usr /var, xfs for rest. With different block sizes depending on for what
01:27:23 <ehird> xfs... isn't that the sun thing?
01:27:37 <ehird> I may just put it all on one fs to avoid slowness copying between partitions
01:27:46 <ehird> AnMaster: I hate the forced regular fsck
01:27:50 <ehird> oh I was thinking of zfs
01:28:08 <ehird> but yeah... "I hate the forced regular fsck" a lot
01:28:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well you can disable that forced fsck
01:28:19 <AnMaster> if you know the relevant man pages
01:28:20 <ehird> AnMaster: is that good for stability, though/
01:28:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess it is an extra safe guard
01:28:39 <AnMaster> but with small partitions it doesn't take long anyway
01:29:05 <ehird> AnMaster: 750gb :-P
01:29:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I just said you _could_, I didn't recommend it
01:29:24 <AnMaster> ehird, that's one disk (in a RAID 1 pair), not one partition
01:29:39 <ehird> for better or for worse
01:29:49 <ehird> oh wait you can get 1tb
01:29:57 <AnMaster> anyway I'm too sleepy to explain partitioning that I prefer. Partly it depends on your own needs too
01:30:27 <ehird> AnMaster: my current backup plan is http://www.tarsnap.com/, which encrypts your backup with aes and puts it on amazon s3 (which a lot of businesses etc critically rely on, so it's very stable)
01:30:53 <AnMaster> why does the clicky url include the ,
01:31:01 <ehird> blame yer client :D
01:31:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I blame the messenger instead ;P
01:31:53 <ehird> AnMaster: from looking around, ati cards seem fine in linux as long as they're one of the well-supported ones
01:32:02 <ehird> AnMaster: also, something like a few cents a gig
01:32:04 <ehird> it's ridiculously cheap
01:32:08 <ehird> but tarsnap pays it for you
01:32:13 <ehird> colin percival runs it
01:32:49 <ehird> As you use tarsnap, money will be deducted from your account daily at a rate of
01:32:49 <ehird> 300 picodollars USD per byte of bandwidth used ($0.30 / GB), and
01:32:50 <ehird> 300 picodollars USD per byte-month of storage ($0.30 / GB / month).
01:33:10 <ehird> so that'd be $225 a month to back up a 750gb drive
01:33:18 <ehird> that's just for storage
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01:51:48 <oerjan> the kind you get from an ATM machine if you've can just remember your PIN number
01:53:05 <oerjan> i wonder if this was covered in that request RFC about the TLA acronyms
01:53:51 <Robdgreat> I'm from the Dept. of Redundancy Dept. You're coming with me.
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01:54:39 <oerjan> http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2450.txt <<< wait, what?
01:55:39 <oerjan> the DRD department will _never_ get me *runs*
01:58:39 * Robdgreat drops a hot water heater on oerjan
01:59:27 * oerjan gives the heater a cold shoulder
02:00:31 * oerjan decapitates the heater and takes a shower in the process
02:01:00 <Robdgreat> for your FYI, that hot water heater was just like a hot water heater to me
02:01:41 * oerjan turns the corpse into a makeshift fort
02:02:04 <Robdgreat> you're surrounded on all sides! Surrender and give yourself up!
02:04:51 <oerjan> i surrender, i seem to have run out of redundancies
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02:06:40 <Robdgreat> now look what you've done. you've gone and woken Sgeo
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02:32:21 <kerlo> What are we talking about and talking about?
02:32:40 <kerlo> (Yep, that and that are right. It's the really annoying and annoying way of being redundant and redundant.)
02:36:04 <oerjan> but it is neither clever nor clever
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02:48:56 <kerlo> It wouldn't be annoying if it were clever, now, would it?
02:49:06 <kerlo> (As opposed to ". . ., now, would it.")
02:51:01 <oerjan> it might. i'm sure John Cleese could pull it off.
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07:57:01 <fizzie> AnMaster always says "night" a couple of times, but never manages to actually go away.
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14:44:27 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: hmm, does cfunge 0.4.0 have been released officially? it seems kuonet.org works now but not updated.
14:45:29 <lifthrasiir> ah i thought http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ is official page; but there is also sf.net project...
14:46:55 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yes it works now, but I haven't had time to update it
14:47:10 <AnMaster> trying to fix a broken backup script atm...
14:47:18 <AnMaster> (that is way more important to me...)
14:47:27 <lifthrasiir> then i should mention your sysinfo-multi-stack-sizes.b98 has a bug... ;)
14:49:52 <lifthrasiir> i should recheck the issue... not sure yet
14:50:30 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, It may be wrong, I remember Deewiant and me discussing what was the right order to push the sizes of the stack-stacks in.
14:50:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that is quite possible, it is a bit old and mycology used to misinterpret the specs for k
14:51:08 <lifthrasiir> there is 12 cells and 5 vectors to be pushed by y command before stack stack information...
14:51:17 <Deewiant> Everybody used to misinterpret the specs for k :-P
14:51:38 <AnMaster> had to change the way k was handled when Mike Riley showed up with a test suite that was written by C Pressy that handled it differently
14:52:09 <Deewiant> Well, the fact that you can never iterate only once wasn't exactly expected :-P
14:52:53 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: ah, okay. 2a*k$ is correct, because y pushes 9 cells, 5 vectors, 2 cells, size of stack stacks and list of sizes of stack stacks.
14:53:12 <lifthrasiir> in befunge-98 there are 9+5*2+2=21 cells before size of stack stacks so that should be 2a*k$
14:53:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so it was correct in new scheme?
14:54:13 <lifthrasiir> (i think i have to learn arithmetic again... :S)
14:55:01 <lifthrasiir> i got confused when i miscounted that number of cells to be 22, not 21
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14:58:47 * oklopol_ suddenly realizes he has another computer
15:04:59 <oklopol_> well i had access to a computer anyway, just couldn't irc that much
15:05:34 <oklopol_> this keyboard is kinda cool, it's been on the floor for about half a year, and i recently spilled a cup of coffee on it
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16:59:32 <ehird> http://www.kdsusa.com/K2626mdhwb.asp
17:05:00 <ehird> hmm the pixel pitch is higher than this display
17:09:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw, I don't know when you plan to update the mycology result page next, but locally efunge passes mycology now. It has a known bug with k over k, but so does CCBI
17:09:51 <AnMaster> Opening mycotmp0.tmp... failed.
17:09:51 <AnMaster> Trying to write to it with o...
17:09:51 <AnMaster> UNDEF: writing to mycotmp0.tmp with o failed: can't test i in binary mode
17:10:08 <Deewiant> I maintain that CCBI's behaviour is not a bug
17:10:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, i is implemented but o isn't (and y says that correctly)
17:10:29 <AnMaster> the i/o related output seems kind of odd...
17:10:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, which is why that isn't BAD.
17:10:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the reason why it can't test o is not the right one though...
17:10:46 <Deewiant> I couldn't be bothered to fix it properly so that it'd say 'UNDEF: o is not implemented' instead.
17:11:03 <Deewiant> It tries o and fails, and then it checks if it's supposed to work or not.
17:11:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it still hard to insert extra code into mycology or?
17:11:24 <AnMaster> didn't you say you made that easier using { to set storage offset or something
17:11:25 <Deewiant> That area is trickier than most since it's right next to where mycorand.bf is loaded
17:11:44 <Deewiant> I don't think I can assume that {} work at that point either :-P
17:12:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can, you test that before you test y
17:12:10 <Deewiant> But it's not fatal if it fails
17:12:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it isn't fatal you can't assume it anywhere in mycology can you?
17:12:42 <Deewiant> They're only needed for fingerprints and I explicitly say somewhere that fingerprints shouldn't be tested until the core works
17:13:00 <Deewiant> What are you doing implementing fingerprints into a broken interpreter anyway? :-P
17:13:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it passes mycology, it can't be broken then can it? ;P
17:13:58 <Deewiant> Wasn't directed at you, just a hypothetical
17:14:13 <AnMaster> NULL, MODU, ROMA, CPLI and FIXP are implemented in efunge
17:14:22 <AnMaster> also yes it also have the bounds bug
17:14:43 <AnMaster> and I'm currently working on it in cfunge, should have more time today
17:16:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw efunge defines Erlang as it's host env. This is because erlang will set/change certain environment variables, such as $PATH
17:17:15 <AnMaster> it is impossible to work around that.
17:17:19 <AnMaster> it is documented in the README.
17:19:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example, on my system these are the changes made by the erlang runtime: http://rafb.net/p/DCezyl46.html
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17:30:27 <Deewiant> All right, fixed the Hello! example on the DOBELA page and my interpreter runs it correctly \o/
17:33:20 <Deewiant> 3792 bytes, I wonder if I can put the whole thing in 4 Kio
17:33:47 <Deewiant> Probably not, but 5 should be doable :-)
17:40:12 <ehird> hey AnMaster, i just realised what gfx card i have in here
17:40:17 * ehird watches AnMaster's seizure
17:42:37 <Deewiant> I have an X1400 Mobility on my laptop
17:43:26 <AnMaster> ehird, how well does it work under Linux when doing OpenGL heavy stuff?
17:43:27 <ehird> i shall be getting a Radeon 4870 in this new box if everything goes to plan
17:43:38 <ehird> AnMaster: well, I haven't tried, but compiz works fine with it
17:44:23 <Deewiant> I have a 4870 in my current machine
17:44:30 <ehird> Deewiant: what video mem/
17:44:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking more about 3D games. For example Flightgear is so opengl heavy it has caused bugs to show up in certain nvidia driver versions too, some developer called it an opengl testsuite as a joke iirc
17:44:42 <ehird> i was going for '2 GB ATI Radeon 4870 X2 PCI-Express x16 GDDR5'
17:44:54 <ehird> AnMaster: I can try glxgears if you want.
17:45:07 <AnMaster> ehird, that usually works okish
17:45:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, why not.
17:45:49 * AnMaster remembers when 32 MB was a lot of video memory
17:46:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I bet this machine could run Crysis.
17:46:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it's an fps whose large system requirements are a meme
17:46:57 <ehird> Minimum system requirements
17:46:57 <ehird> from Crytek and EA
17:46:58 <ehird> OS - Windows XP or Windows Vista
17:47:01 <ehird> Processor - 2.8 GHz or faster (XP) or 3.2 GHz or faster* (Vista)
17:47:02 <ehird> Memory - 1.0 GB RAM (XP) or 1.5 GB RAM (Vista)
17:47:04 <ehird> Video Card -256 MB**
17:47:09 <ehird> and that's just the minimum
17:47:12 <ehird> Recommended System Requirements
17:47:12 <ehird> from Crytek and EA
17:47:15 <ehird> OS - Windows XP / Vista
17:47:16 <ehird> Processor - Intel Core 2 DUO @ 2.2GHz or AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+
17:47:18 <ehird> Memory - 2.0 GB RAM
17:47:21 <ehird> GPU - NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS/640 or similar
17:48:01 <AnMaster> interesting how Vista needs a lot more for CPU and memory...
17:48:09 <AnMaster> btw what is the * and ** there?
17:48:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Er, footnote thingies
17:48:33 <AnMaster> ehird, duh, I meant what does the footnotes say...
17:48:35 <ehird> * Supported Processors: Intel Pentium 4 2.8 GHz (3.2 GHz for Vista) or faster, Intel Core 2.0 GHz (2.2 GHz for Vista) or faster, AMD Athlon 2800+ (3200+ for Vista) or faster.
17:48:36 <ehird> ** Supported chipsets: NVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT or greater; ATI Radeon 9800 Pro (Radeon X800 Pro for Vista) or greater. Laptop versions of these chipsets may work but are not supported. Integrated chipsets are not supported. Updates to your video and sound card drivers may be required.
17:48:55 <ehird> AnMaster: I think since system76 are in the ubuntu community etc there're probably good drivers for the cards
17:49:21 <AnMaster> but they only ship in US and CA remember?
17:49:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I have friends in the u
17:49:40 <ehird> who could ship it to me
17:49:40 <AnMaster> + then there is the power supply voltage issue
17:49:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I can replace the power supply
17:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, would you trust those friends not to keep it for themselves?
17:50:09 <ehird> AnMaster: You have shitty friends. :-P
17:50:52 * AnMaster refrains from a reply that would lead to another ignore-from-both-side-war
17:50:54 <ehird> I wouldn't be friends with someone who would steal a pc & money from me
17:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume none of your friends is named Nobby then
17:52:58 <ehird> That would be a true statement.
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17:53:24 <AnMaster> ehird, btw those system requirements above, odd that the footnote for video card contains info about sound card drivers...
17:53:41 <ehird> AnMaster: there was another line about the soundcard
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17:53:58 * ehird asks stuff in the system76 forums
17:55:09 <AnMaster> well those minimum system requirements listed above does seem rather large, but only two are outrageous: XP/Vista for OS, and 12 GB for harddrive.
17:55:32 <AnMaster> the recommended ones seems outrageous too.
17:55:56 <ehird> well, 12gb hd is standard these days
17:56:02 <ehird> i mean, games in 2003 were 5gb
17:56:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well but presumably it means it will use 12 GB, not that it will fit on a 12 GB large harddrive that also contains vista...
17:57:24 <AnMaster> ehird, you know, I think it would be a good thing to force everyone at EA to work with the demo scene for DOS for a few months, might bring the game size down a bit...
17:57:36 <ehird> I love the demoscene
17:57:58 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeh9VQyP3E β I can't believe they fit this into 64k in an amiga
17:58:22 <AnMaster> because there are things to optimise stuff that a lot of people don't know. For example the cvs(!) checkout of the full data directory for flightgear is huge. Around 800 MB...
17:58:52 <AnMaster> but I managed to save 50 just by re-compressing all the png textures with advpng -z2 and optipng -i0 -o3
17:59:02 * ehird reads the marketing site for the speakers http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/208&cl=roeu,en
17:59:10 <AnMaster> bloated png files is a real issue these days :/
17:59:44 <AnMaster> ehird, hm ok. but what about: the issue of bloated png files is/are a real issue these days :/
17:59:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it's are
17:59:57 <ehird> the issue of bloated png files is a real one these days
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18:00:10 <ehird> the satellites look like traffic lights
18:00:17 <AnMaster> ehird, there it is singular, but in the other case it is plural...
18:00:19 <ehird> http://www.logitech.com/repository/324/jpg/2325.1.0.jpg
18:00:24 <ehird> AnMaster: an issue is one thing
18:00:36 <ehird> AnMaster: but in "bloated png files"
18:00:45 <ehird> you're referring to multiple png files being the singular issue
18:00:52 <AnMaster> ehird, it all be so much clear if we used S-Expressions to group it
18:01:04 <ehird> s/\ball/would all/
18:02:15 <AnMaster> (is (issue (bloated (png-files))) (these-days (real issue)))
18:02:29 <AnMaster> or we could just learn lojban instead
18:03:02 <AnMaster> ehird, what does it use , and . for?
18:03:10 <ehird> AnMaster: err, like, breaking and stuff
18:03:11 <ehird> 01 Aug 2007 11:28:46 <ehird`> xu mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u
18:03:19 <AnMaster> also does google translate do lojban
18:03:21 <ehird> I think that's "I say 'my name is Elliott Hird'"
18:03:31 <AnMaster> hm how did you work out that line there then?
18:03:44 <ehird> AnMaster: That was from #lojban when I was learning it
18:03:46 <ehird> I've forgotten it all now
18:04:01 <AnMaster> hm strange that names are changed like that
18:04:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Not really; it's just like romanization.
18:04:40 <AnMaster> I mean usually you write a French name in a Swedish or English text in it's original form and so on. Exception being other scripts being transcribed to the Latin charset
18:05:02 <ehird> Like: xu mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u
18:05:02 <ehird> Which is: Did I say/Do I say "I am named Elliott Hird"
18:05:06 <ehird> AnMaster: x is like ch in bach
18:05:10 <AnMaster> idea: make a programming language which looks like Lojban.
18:05:11 <ehird> AnMaster: You can't get it precis
18:05:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you can make a proglang which _is_ lojban
18:05:19 <ehird> it has a yacc parser
18:05:27 <ehird> which is the official grammar
18:05:35 <ehird> http://www.lojban.org/publications/formal-grammars/grammar.300
18:05:59 <AnMaster> ehird, can a computer actually make sense of that syntax tree you get though?
18:06:14 <ehird> AnMaster: It can't understand it like a human, obviously.
18:06:22 <ehird> [[it has selbri, which are like functions - they take a number of arguments ("places") and you can skip arguments with special words that move to different arguments]] -- me
18:06:35 <ehird> So it's quite a close fit
18:06:59 <ehird> "mee cooskoo lohhoo meeheh Eleaht chrd lehhoo"
18:06:59 <ehird> Where ch is like in Bach.
18:07:01 <ehird> -- me on pronounciation of mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u
18:07:18 <AnMaster> ehird, lets say you tell it in lojban "go ahead", but wouldn't there be many different ways to express that? In English there certainly are, some depending on context.
18:07:30 <ehird> AnMaster: There's always multiple ways to express something.
18:07:37 <ehird> It's impossible to restrict that.
18:08:02 <ehird> AnMaster: The language is unambiguous -- but that doesn't mean what you say in it is.
18:08:08 <AnMaster> "sure", "go ahead", "okay" could all mean the same thing to a human (depending on context, in certain contexts they would be rather different)
18:08:53 <AnMaster> I admit I don't know lojban, so maybe it has some way to handle this
18:09:09 <ehird> It's still tuned for human expression.
18:09:48 <AnMaster> so we are still far from the computer on Enterprise then :/
18:10:12 <ehird> "One of the his first non-programming worksβthe GNU Manifestoβwas a certifiable snore-fest, later adopted by a commercial enterprise, repackaged, and sold on the industrial pharmaceutical market as a sedative for invasive surgery. "
18:10:14 <ehird> - http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Stallman
18:10:59 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, you said x was like ch in bach above, so "Hird" is pronounced like "chird"??
18:11:14 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it's pronounced like herd, but lojban has no equivalent sound.
18:11:17 <ehird> ch is as close as you can get.
18:11:38 <ehird> lament: you just reached a new low in coherency
18:12:26 <AnMaster> ehird, hm.. it made kind of sense in a meta-sense kind of non-sense way
18:12:42 <AnMaster> kind of like the description for the last sqrt(-garfield)
18:12:54 <ehird> There should be free pacemaker software like corebios
18:13:00 <ehird> Become an early adopter!
18:13:00 <AnMaster> same sort of meta-sense I mean
18:13:09 <ehird> And, er, a "late" adopter.
18:13:19 <AnMaster> ehird, to get back to x: is there a strict connection between spelling and pronouncing then in lojban?
18:13:31 <AnMaster> because I think that is why we still don't use such languages
18:13:33 <ehird> all letters are pronounced in exactly one way
18:13:48 <AnMaster> but it makes the language a bit boring kind of
18:14:15 <AnMaster> you need some quirks to make it feel like a real language. Otherwise it just feels very artificial
18:14:40 <ehird> oh god, I read 'colorforth.com update. SeaForth is dead. Chuck Moore is back.'
18:14:44 <ehird> as 'Chuck Moore is dead'
18:14:47 <ehird> and I died a little insid
18:14:52 <ehird> http://colorforth.com/
18:15:00 <AnMaster> I read "chuck moore" as "chuck norris"
18:15:09 <ehird> chuck norris codes forth with his bible
18:15:23 <ehird> i lov ehow he looks like he was just in a fight in this pic: http://colorforth.com/chuck.jpg
18:15:36 <AnMaster> but the name sounds interesting
18:15:48 <ehird> 4 dimensional forth
18:15:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you could have touchforth too...
18:15:58 <ehird> which uses sound as the fourth d
18:16:03 <ehird> to represent it that is
18:16:49 <AnMaster> with the u added it makes sense indeed
18:17:26 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you encode it in sound? And how would you sync the ASCII file with this signal?
18:17:45 <ehird> AnMaster: ask oklopol_, he was writing a 4d pong where fourth d = sound
18:17:57 <AnMaster> trefunge uses form feed to increment the z dimension...
18:18:54 <AnMaster> oklopol_, this 4D-with-sound pong sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on what this wound mean in practise?
18:19:25 <ehird> AnMaster: like ... early mid 2008?
18:19:38 <lament> how about 8D pong, with sound and taste
18:20:01 <ehird> all of your senses. psychics only
18:21:55 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you said your computer was almost silent?
18:22:04 <ehird> AnMaster: generally, yes
18:22:15 <ehird> probably not for you and your mega ears
18:22:47 <AnMaster> ehird, at what sort of usage does it's fans turn on?
18:23:04 <AnMaster> I mean, compiling a small app? Compiling a large app? 3D games?
18:23:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Compiling generally makes the fans run a lil', but not too noticable.
18:23:34 <ehird> It's hard to get the fans to go high -- I've only had them on full when it measured wrong and put them on full blast by mistake.
18:23:40 <Deewiant> ehird: Those two Radeon X2s will make it sound like a space rocket
18:23:48 <ehird> Deewiant: What, all the time?
18:23:54 <ehird> Also, I'm talking about my current rig
18:24:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the best way would be to have the computer in one room then a terminal in a separate room
18:24:12 <ehird> Deewiant: o_O Why?
18:24:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Lisp Machines did that.
18:24:31 <Deewiant> They're not exactly known as very quiet cards. :-P
18:24:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen some laptops that are silent mostly when you use them, but run fan at full speed when you go compiling or run a simulation or such, and even with the fans on it runs very hot then..
18:25:02 <ehird> Deewiant: What actually makes the noise? I'm not a gfx-card-knowledgable kind of person.
18:25:22 <ehird> But that sounds sucky, if they're gonna be loud all the time I'll have to ditch them :-(
18:25:28 <AnMaster> an apple macbook (non-pro) did this to me about half a year ago, not the last model or such even back then...
18:26:00 <ehird> Deewiant: And why does it need to run these fans all the time?
18:26:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also seeking harddrives (some models)
18:26:04 <Deewiant> ehird: It runs at around 60 degrees when idle, with the fans on.
18:26:12 <ehird> Deewiant: what the fuck.
18:26:21 <ehird> Do you mean f or c
18:26:38 <Deewiant> Or maybe I'm confusing the number with power usage in watts, actually
18:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, my GPU came in two editions, one with fan and one without, sadly the one without was out of stock and I needed a replacement the same day (my old geforce 3 had finally given up. R.I.P.)
18:27:02 <Deewiant> And for the record I never use Fahrenheit.
18:27:30 <ehird> 60c is just ridiculous
18:27:32 <Deewiant> ehird: No, I was right, at least one review says 58 degrees when idle (22 db)
18:27:42 <ehird> Deewiant: wait, 22 db? Am I fucking hearing you right?
18:27:46 <ehird> That's fucking ridiculous.
18:27:47 <AnMaster> geforce 7600 btw, with the more extreme cards I assume it would be hard to make a fan-less edition
18:28:07 <AnMaster> ehird, how hot is the CPU in your mac btw?
18:28:08 <ehird> Deewiant: I should just buy a fan and put it on full right next to my ears.
18:28:16 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know I've never touched it :-P
18:28:19 <Deewiant> ehird: Oh, and btw. This wasn't an X2.
18:28:24 <ehird> Deewiant: what was it
18:28:32 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc macs have sensors, I even remember seeing some app on OS X showing it in a nice way
18:28:47 <AnMaster> it worked when I tried it on that macbook at least...
18:28:48 <Deewiant> ehird: The X2s will be worse, of course. Don't know by how much, though.
18:28:49 <ehird> Deewiant: so why do people buy these things...
18:29:08 <Deewiant> ehird: People who buy the latest and greatest graphics cards aren't generally looking for silent systems :-P
18:29:32 <ehird> Deewiant: the lowest end this comes with is a 512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3
18:29:32 <AnMaster> ehird, speed, price, low noise level, choose two.
18:29:34 <Deewiant> I'm satisfied with the quietness of mine
18:29:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Speed & low noise level. What's the price? :-)
18:30:04 <Deewiant> My current machine makes less than half the noise of the previous one :-P
18:30:23 <Deewiant> I did rip out the stock HD 4870 cooler though
18:31:14 <ehird> Deewiant: Can you watercool these things? ;-)
18:31:27 <ehird> I am so not going to try that.
18:31:29 <Deewiant> I've never messed with non-air-cooling
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18:31:41 <AnMaster> ehird, cost of whatever two rooms cost around where you live + one of those fancy terminal extender things from blackbox (seen in ads, with happy customers talking about how much better it is not having to have dust collecting computers in clean rooms or whatever, and "contact for price") + noisy computer + monitor + keyboard + mouse
18:32:24 <AnMaster> a CD drive at the same place as the terminal might be useful too, in case you are lazy it would be a requirement even
18:32:36 <AnMaster> (depending on how often you use CDs)
18:33:19 <Deewiant> Just use a pneumatic tube system to transport the CD to the drive
18:33:29 <ehird> Deewiant: how loud would a '512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3' be
18:33:37 <Deewiant> ehird: Beats me, google for reviews
18:33:39 <AnMaster> ehird, something like that listed on http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Results.aspx/KVM/n-4294964384/p-0 maybe
18:33:59 <Deewiant> ehird: I only know about stuff I've considered buying :-P
18:34:06 <AnMaster> price doesn't seem _too_ bad in fact..
18:34:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Wish you hadn't told me this, now I'm out of ideas :D
18:35:00 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: enormous external headsink. Imagine this: an external 3 kg headsink on the top of the computer case...
18:35:24 <ehird> I wonder why watercooling never comes standard
18:35:25 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, I decided early on that I'd get approximately the best gfx card
18:35:37 <Deewiant> So I only really looked at the 4870 and the GeForce GTX 260/280
18:35:50 <AnMaster> ehird, because when things go bad they go really bad. That may be why water cooling is not very popular.
18:35:53 <Deewiant> And the former was 100β¬ or so cheaper so it was an easy decision :-P
18:36:03 <ehird> Deewiant: Yar, it's just that one airplane-noised computer was enough for a lifetime for me.
18:36:35 <Deewiant> ehird: I've had a lot of those, I think my current one is simultaneously the quietest and most powerful machine I've ever had, by far :-)
18:36:43 <AnMaster> I mean a failed fan is much less of a problem, computer will detect that it is overheating and then shut itself off at some point. A lot of modern computers do that at least.
18:36:59 <ehird> Deewiant: Got a microphone with good enough quality to give an accurate picture of the loudness? :P
18:37:12 <Deewiant> ehird: No microphone at all, sorry
18:37:29 <ehird> Deep lake water cooling uses cold water pumped from the bottom of a lake as a heat sink for climate control systems^W^W^Wcomputers.
18:37:30 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_lake_water_cooling
18:38:22 <AnMaster> ehird, interesting, but is it used for computers? yet?
18:38:31 <Deewiant> ehird: I can't hear it at all when I've got earphones+music on, unless I explicitly try to listen for it
18:38:42 <ehird> Yes, well, I don't do headphones [as yesterday]
18:39:19 <ehird> Deewiant: can't think properly with them
18:39:59 <Deewiant> I tend to just turn sounds off and keep them on :-P
18:40:14 <Deewiant> If I find myself needing extra-effective thinking, that is
18:40:23 <AnMaster> I can actually hear the fans in my computer even with ear protectors (or whatever the name was). Though the ear protectors do help reduce it to a acceptable level...
18:40:57 <ehird> Bah, computers suck.
18:41:42 <Deewiant> Hmm, earphones refer specifically to earbuds, I didn't mean those
18:41:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about headphones, with no sound playing my headphones hardly reduce outside noise at all. But your does?
18:42:03 <Deewiant> Well, a bit, since they're circumaural
18:42:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, earbuds? is that before they become earflowers???
18:42:26 <Deewiant> Haha, never even realized that
18:42:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/IPod_Earbuds.JPG
18:44:30 <AnMaster> hm... when I click that link I get a message from konq saying "TjΓ€nsten "/home/anmaster/.local/share/applications/gimp.desktop" Γ€r felaktig.", weird..
18:45:21 <AnMaster> anyway about that pic... aha, those yeah
18:45:31 <AnMaster> never heard the name "earbuds" for them before
18:45:49 <AnMaster> never heard a English name I think
18:46:15 <AnMaster> anyway, "earbuds" always fall out of my ears...
18:46:16 <Deewiant> http://www.redtower.hu/kepek/upload/2008-09/sennheiser_hd555.jpg is what I've got
18:46:23 <ehird> earbuds or earphones
18:46:29 <ehird> AnMaster: you didn't put them in deep enough
18:46:36 <ehird> if you're not getting uncomfortable ear damage they'll fall out
18:46:47 <Deewiant> I get uncomfortable ear damage and they still fall out
18:46:51 <ehird> Deewiant: I have ones pretty like that except more shit
18:47:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that explains it, I tried to not cause damage to myself I guess.
18:47:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, AKG 240 Studio are my headphones, google for them
18:47:50 <ehird> http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,252,pid,252,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html
18:48:16 <ehird> My ears are too small for headphones
18:48:18 <Deewiant> They seem a bit small: are those circumaural or supra-aural?
18:48:27 <AnMaster> the url looks funny I'd say, but the actual headphones? no
18:48:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I would answer if I knew what "circumaural" or "supra-aural" meant...
18:49:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "Around ear" or "on top of ear"
18:49:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, diameter for the round areas is approx. 10 cm
18:49:35 <Deewiant> I.e. does your entire ear fit inside them
18:50:21 <Deewiant> I guess that'd make them circumaural
18:50:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is outer diameter of the padded area. inner diameter is ~6.5 cm
18:51:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway they are comfortable and the sound is high quality, which is what I care about
18:52:19 <AnMaster> and it seems to fit just around my ear
18:52:33 <Judofyr> I'm quite satisfied with Grado Labs SR60
18:54:39 <AnMaster> btw, anyone remember that google shell thingy?
18:57:46 <AnMaster> ehird, remember that google shell thingy?
19:01:25 <AnMaster> not a very good implementation indeed
19:01:32 <AnMaster> cd semantics is broken for example
19:02:41 <ehird> Why can't I just have speed, power and quietness :-P
19:02:45 <ehird> AND A FREAKING PONY.
19:18:59 <ehird> "Currently Mausezahn is only available for Linux platforms. Please do NOT PORT Mausezahn to Windows!"
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19:30:45 <AnMaster> is there any way to pass a parameter list as a argument to a macro? example: I want a macro to declare a prototype (lets not discuss why right now), and I want to do something like #define MAKEPROTO(funcname, rettype, arguments) rettype someprefix ## funcname (arguments)
19:31:05 <AnMaster> ais523, this sounds like something you may know?
19:31:57 <ais523> there's a __VA_ARGS__ keyword
19:32:02 <AnMaster> ais523, ah nice, yes I'm doing C99 atm in fact (and yes I still have a reason to do prototypes in a strange way)
19:32:03 <ais523> actually, I'm not sure about those trailing underscores
19:32:23 <ais523> there's a gcc extension, ,##__VA_ARGS__
19:32:39 <ais523> which removes the comma immediately before the variable arg list if there are no variable arguments
19:33:10 <ais523> the traditional C89 trick, by the way, is to use an extra pair of parens
19:33:22 <ais523> #define MAKEPROTO(funcname, rettype, arguments) rettype someprefix ## funcname arguments
19:33:31 <ais523> and always enclose the arguments in a second pair of parens when passing them to the macro
19:33:43 <ais523> as in MAKEPROTO(main, int, (int argc, char** argv))
19:33:56 <AnMaster> as for why: If it was C++ this would have been templates...
19:34:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'll let you figure that out yourself...
19:43:33 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNCPROT(m_rettype, m_funcname, m_args, m_attrs) \
19:43:33 <AnMaster> m_attrs m_rettype cf_mempool_ ## CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT ## m_funcname m_args
19:43:40 <AnMaster> why doesn't it expand CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT I wonder...
19:43:48 <AnMaster> yes it is defined before calling the macro
19:43:54 <AnMaster> though after the macro was defined
19:44:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how is that relevant?
19:44:09 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT fspace
19:44:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I mean they're not expanded recursively
19:44:43 <Deewiant> The contents of the macro aren't rechecked to see if they contain another macro
19:44:47 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNCPROT(m_rettype, m_funcname, m_args, m_attrs) \
19:44:47 <AnMaster> m_attrs m_rettype cf_mempool_ ## CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT ## m_funcname m_args
19:44:48 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT fspace
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19:44:59 <AnMaster> CF_MEMPOOL_FUNCPROT(bool, setup, (void), FUNGE_ATTR_FAST)
19:49:03 <ehird> Deewiant: no, they are
19:49:13 <ehird> cf_mempool_CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANTm_funcnam
19:49:18 <ehird> which isn't a defined macro name
19:49:28 <ehird> Deewiant: of course
19:49:31 <ehird> that's why you can call a macro in a macro
19:51:03 <Deewiant> I thought the expansion was done at #define time which'd have been why define FOO BAR and BAR FOO doesn't loop infinitely
19:52:18 <ehird> I think there's recursion detection
19:52:26 <ais523> it gets even more complex when ## is involved
19:52:33 <ais523> ## has some weird rules with respect to macros
19:52:50 <Deewiant> Oh noes, Home of the Underdogs is down
19:54:14 <AnMaster> ok so why does it turn into cf_mempool_CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANTm_funcnam
19:54:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Because that's how ## works.
19:54:34 <ais523> Deewiant: pass ing CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT as an argument to that macro
19:55:14 <ais523> the problem is that the ## is happening before the #define expansion
19:55:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it helps to have the standard in front of you: if you search for n1124.pdf, you'll get one of the drafts proposed as an expansion to C99
19:56:08 <ais523> which contains all the C99 stuff you need to care about
19:56:24 <ais523> the drafts are available for free even though the standard itself isn't
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19:56:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I have C99:TC3 (that is C99 + proposed bug fixes iirc)
19:58:18 <AnMaster> need to pass it to the top macro even it seems
19:59:19 <AnMaster> (I was using another macro calling the first one to define the various types, then calling that macro several times for the different variants
20:02:09 <AnMaster> error: expected β=β, β,β, β;β, βasmβ or β__attribute__β before β*β token
20:09:04 <AnMaster> ais523, how mad would you say that including an internal header twice but with different defines to create two different implementations is?
20:09:32 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's mad or not, I know I've done it lots of times but I think I'm mad too
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20:10:38 <ais523> carchive works using a program that recursively includes itself with different defines
20:11:40 <ais523> it's basically a program that inputs a set of files
20:11:47 <ais523> and creates a C program that reconstructs them
20:12:04 <ais523> it's a self-extracting archive program, just in portable C rather than as a Windows .exe
20:12:14 <ais523> I wrote it a while back, I've never used it
20:13:50 <ais523> I was planning to use it to distribute C-INTERCAL
20:14:00 <ais523> but pax is better for that, and besides carchive doesn't handle directories
20:18:24 <oklopol_> <AnMaster> oklopol_, this 4D-with-sound pong sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on what this wound mean in practise? <<< basically curveball, but also a fourth dimension in color and sound.
20:19:18 <AnMaster> oklopol_, how would the sounds bit work (from a user perspective)?
20:19:43 <oklopol_> so usually you'd try to stay in the same position as the ball until it turns your color and the sound has the correct pitch
20:19:48 <AnMaster> would I sing to control the position of the paddle in the 4th dimension or what?
20:21:31 <AnMaster> oklopol_, what do you mean same position as the ball? And what is "curveball"? When I google I get stuff related to baseball hm.
20:21:43 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/search?q=curveball
20:21:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so it is the baseball one then?
20:21:58 <Deewiant> Top one is http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/curveball
20:22:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not here. Here top one is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball
20:22:15 <oklopol_> curveball is a flash game, and same position means you'd stay in the same 3d coords as the ball, in the cube
20:22:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also I don't have flash as you know
20:22:28 <oklopol_> of course, then there's 4d rotation of the cube....
20:22:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Actually I didn't know
20:22:51 <Deewiant> Or maybe I did but I didn't consider it important enough to remember
20:23:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, meh, ehird claims I mentioned it millions of times before every time I mention it.
20:23:12 <oklopol_> you can check out the tesseract rotation animations on wikipedia
20:23:14 <AnMaster> so I thought "lets avoid that for once"
20:24:46 <oklopol_> is not having flash an ideology issue, or why should people assume you're never going to take the 3 minutes it takes to install it?
20:25:57 <ais523> oklopol_: partly ideology, partly security (it's the biggest cross-platform security hole in existence), and often people have a system it doesn't work on
20:26:16 <ais523> also, not having Flash is really useful, do you have any idea how annoying Flash is?
20:26:34 <oklopol_> also i asked a prof if they'd organize an exam on schaum's mathematical handbook, and they were like all philosophical "hmm interesting idea, if done right... but no, of course not"
20:28:30 <oklopol_> i consider flash the cornerstone of internet, internet is mostly used to browse for flash content, then using it.
20:29:49 <oklopol_> i guess i'd have to be a *nix user to know why it's annoying
20:30:07 <oklopol_> (joke is i am, this is my ubu machine)
20:31:39 <oklopol_> maybe i should stop my mindless rambling and read about vector spaces
20:32:24 <AnMaster> cfunge_mempool_priv.h:90: warning: no previous prototype for βcf_mempool_CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT_setupβ
20:32:32 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT fspace
20:32:33 <AnMaster> #include "cfunge_mempool_priv.h"
20:32:49 <AnMaster> then I'm calling a macro like:
20:32:51 <oklopol_> (and drink the rest of my beers)
20:32:54 <AnMaster> bool CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC(setup, CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT) (void)
20:33:08 <ais523> AnMaster: you need two layers of indirection
20:33:10 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC(m_funcname, m_variant) \
20:33:10 <AnMaster> cf_mempool_ ## m_variant ## _ ## m_funcname
20:33:28 <ais523> you want #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC(m_funcname, m_variant) CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC1(m_funcname, m_variant)
20:33:36 <ais523> and put the new value in FUNC1
20:33:48 <oklopol_> is it alcoholism when you can't finish your beers and therefor need to drink for multiple weekends on end?
20:33:54 <ais523> oklopol_: I don't know
20:34:34 <oklopol_> well you can generalize that and answer for another activity
20:34:48 <ais523> AnMaster: weirdness with ## and macros
20:35:13 <AnMaster> I thought the double macro thing was needed for # only
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21:05:47 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you use macros inside typedefs?
21:05:58 <AnMaster> typedef struct CF_GHT_STRUCT(CF_GHT_VAR, hash_key) {
21:05:58 <AnMaster> CF_GHT_KEY p_key; /**< The key. */
21:05:58 <AnMaster> } CF_GHT_NAME(CF_GHT_VAR, hash_key_t);
21:06:06 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/hotcold/lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table_priv.h(5): error: expected a ")"
21:06:06 <AnMaster> typedef struct CF_GHT_STRUCT(CF_GHT_VAR, hash_key) {
21:06:15 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/hotcold/lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table_priv.h:5: error: expected β)β before β,β token
21:06:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:06:59 <ais523> AnMaster: typedefs are compile-time, macros are preprocess-time, they don't interact
21:07:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not yet, because for this file I need to pass lots of -I and so on, will do that next
21:07:50 <AnMaster> typedef struct CF_LIBGHT_NAME_INTERN(s_, fspace, hash_key) {
21:07:50 <AnMaster> } CF_LIBGHT_NAME_INTERN(ght_, fspace, hash_key_t);
21:07:58 <AnMaster> that is the preprocessed result
21:09:03 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/hotcold/lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions_priv.h:97: warning: type defaults to βintβ in declaration of βght_hash_key_tβ
21:09:08 <AnMaster> that line is inside a comment...
21:10:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well probably, the actual error was 5 lines away
21:15:13 <ehird> so who wants to know how I fixed synta
21:16:22 <AnMaster> what is "syntax" in this case? The name of some language or what?
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21:24:51 <ais523> haha: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/first-sale-president-obama-and-queen-england
21:24:57 -!- Guest94576 has changed nick to M0ny.
21:25:09 <ais523> it seems President Obama gave an iPod with music on to the Queen of England
21:25:16 <ais523> and nobody's entirely sure if that's legal or not
21:25:24 <ais523> due to copyright law being so broken
21:26:11 <ais523> well, all that's been deduced so far is that the Queen didn't break UK law as a result, because she's the Queen and can do what she wants
21:27:05 <Deewiant> I don't quite like the idea of a legal system where that 'because' always applies but in this case I'm amused
21:27:18 <oklopol_> anyone here an expert on vector spaces or should i just highlight oerjan
21:27:34 <Deewiant> Start with your question and then highlight oerjan
21:27:45 <Deewiant> Say, if nobody answers within a few minutes
21:27:53 <ais523> Deewiant: the ability of the Queen to do whatever she wants has never been repealed
21:27:59 <Sgeo> oklopol_, you already highlighted oerjan, except that he's not here
21:28:01 <Deewiant> And also, oerjan doesn't seem to be here, so you're screwed anyway
21:28:02 <ais523> although she can't introduce new laws, just reject the ones Parliament came up with
21:28:44 <oklopol_> was just wondering could there be an infinite vector space for which there is no linearly independent subset which generates the space
21:29:15 <oklopol_> it's just proved for finite vector spaces that there's always such a set
21:29:27 <Deewiant> But I guess with the AoC anything can happen ;-P
21:30:45 <oklopol_> well yes intuition says no, i just don't feel like proving it myself so i was hoping for a shortcut
21:31:00 <oklopol_> probably just notational convenience it's only proved for finites
21:31:35 <oklopol_> "generation" means linear combinations of *finite* subsets at a time
21:32:23 <oklopol_> so if there are linearly dependent vectors used to generate a vector in the space, then you could just use the other vectors they are linearly dependent with
21:32:48 <Deewiant> With an infinite number of combinations... I don't see why generation would be impossible
21:33:51 <oklopol_> this is about a *maximal* generating subset
21:35:01 <ehird> 21:27 ais523: Deewiant: the ability of the Queen to do whatever she wants has never been repealed
21:35:09 <ehird> I'm going to become queen then kill everyone.
21:35:20 <ais523> ehird: htf are you going to become Queen?
21:35:43 <ehird> I just need a time machine
21:35:49 <ehird> and a serial cable connected to reality
21:36:02 <ais523> having a time machine is sufficient to be able to do anything anyway, you don't have to be the Queen as well
21:36:05 <Deewiant> I suggest something with more bandwidth
21:36:20 <Deewiant> Rewriting reality over a serial cable is likely to take a long time
21:36:25 <Deewiant> But I guess that's why you need the time machine
21:36:43 <ehird> ais523: er, are you sure? I mean, you can go and change everything by going back a few million years
21:36:48 <ehird> but can you make subtle changes just because you're there?
21:36:53 <AnMaster> <ais523> having a time machine is sufficient to be able to do anything anyway, you don't have to be the Queen as well <-- only if you have the Ultimate Edition of it.
21:36:56 <ehird> I don't think that's a given
21:37:25 <Deewiant> Well, there's not much sense in talking about time machines unless you've defined the rules under which they operate
21:37:37 <Deewiant> Given that in the real world, there are no such rules since they don't operate. :-P
21:37:40 <oklopol_> or even if you've defined the rules
21:37:59 <ehird> Deewiant: time travel's been proven to be impossible?
21:38:50 <Deewiant> ehird: Assumed impossible until proven possible.
21:38:53 <AnMaster> ehird, "<Deewiant> That's a matter of opinion."
21:39:25 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, well, that's a rather ridiculous view to take, it's not like there's no viable theories under which time travel is possible
21:39:29 <ehird> "(the UK, after all, lacks a fair use doctrine)" o_O
21:40:37 <oklopol_> there are no viable theories under which time travel is possible.
21:40:48 <ehird> Deewiant: It should be noted that I'm talking shit.
21:40:59 <ehird> You should know that I do that all the time by now.
21:41:22 <oklopol_> suddenly i decide to believe you
21:41:30 <ehird> [yeah I'm the first poo that can talk isn't that amazing]
21:41:42 <Deewiant> Next time you say something interesting, I'll tell you you're full of shit and you can't refute me.
21:42:19 <ehird> Deewiant: are _you_ an instance of feces that can audibly communicate? no? then shut up.
21:42:33 <Deewiant> What's an 'instance of faeces'
21:42:52 <oklopol_> according to south park the first talking poo was bono
21:42:58 <ehird> If you want to be all hoi polloi about it, Deewiant, sure.
21:43:26 <Deewiant> ehird: Ah, a sophisticated piece of shit.
21:44:17 <ehird> In December 1982, an 8-year-old boy, Jeffrey R. Yee, supposedly received a letter from U.S. President Ronald Reagan congratulating him on a worldwide record of 6,131,940 points, a score only possible if the player has passed the Split-Screen Level.[16] Whether or not this event happened as described has remained in heated debate among video-game circles since its supposed occurrence. In September 1983, Walter Day, chief scorekeeper at Twin Galaxies, took
21:44:20 <ehird> the US National Video Game Team on a tour of the East Coast to visit video game players who claimed they could get through the Split-Screen. No video game player could demonstrate this ability. In 1999, Billy Mitchell offered $100,000 to anyone who could provably pass through the Split-Screen Level before January 1, 2000; the prize went unclaimed.[16]
21:44:24 <ehird> β why don't they just make an ai to play it
21:44:57 <ais523> and what's the split-screen level?
21:45:00 <Sgeo> Is there seriously a special "Split-Screen" level?
21:45:06 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Split_Screen_in_Pac_Man.gif
21:45:09 <Deewiant> It happens when the level counter rolls over
21:45:13 <ehird> land of corrupted memory
21:45:20 <ehird> "The 256th split-screen level can not be completed because of a software bug. "
21:45:21 <ais523> oh, so it wasn't deliberate?
21:45:43 <ehird> Pac-Man technically has no endingβas long as the player keeps at least one life, they should be able to continue playing indefinitely. However, because of a bug in the routine that draws the fruit, the right side of the 256th level becomes a garbled mess of text and symbols, rendering the level impossible to pass by legitimate means. Normally, no more than seven fruits are displayed at any one time, but when the internal level counter (stored in a sing
21:45:46 <ehird> le byte) reaches 255, the subroutine erroneously causes this value to "roll over" to zero before drawing the fruit. This causes the routine to attempt to draw 256 fruits, which corrupts the bottom of the screen and the whole right half of the maze with seemingly random symbols.[14]
21:45:53 <ehird> I want two hundred and fifty six fruits.
21:46:09 <ehird> "as well as allowing players to see what would happen if the 256th level is cleared (the game loops back to the first level, causing fruits and intermissions to display as before, but with the ghosts retaining their higher speed and invulnerability to power pellets from the later stages)"
21:46:43 <ehird> "Despite claims that someone with enough knowledge of the maze pattern could play through the level, it is technically impossible to complete since the graphical corruption eliminates most of the dots on the right half of the maze. A few edible dots are scattered in the corrupted area, and these dots reset when the player loses a life (unlike in the uncorrupted areas), but these are insufficient to complete the level"
21:46:45 <ehird> god, why is this so lame
21:46:56 <ehird> I was hoping for something like that memory-corruption tron thing
21:46:59 <Deewiant> Bugs aren't usually particularly exciting
21:47:24 <ehird> someone link to that tron thing, ais523?
21:48:26 <ehird> ais523: yes you do, it was that thing on an old console where they made a lightcycle game and the AI shot the wall
21:48:31 <ais523> I was hoping the split screen would be something like two pacman games with one set of controls
21:48:34 <ehird> and started shooting corrupted memory
21:48:48 <ehird> >_< You said it was great when I linked it ages ago
21:48:49 <ais523> I never knew, stop trying to claim I knew something when I didn't
21:49:17 <ehird> You did know you've just forgotten because when I find the links I'll prove it via the logs :-P
21:50:57 <ais523> ok, possibly the stupidest image on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Win3x_Black_Screen_of_Death.gif
21:51:18 <Deewiant> "Screenshot in Virtual PC." :-)
21:51:38 <ais523> not only that, it's an /animated/ screenshot
21:51:41 <fizzie> Even a gif animation, yes.
21:51:42 <ais523> notice the blinking cursor?
21:51:51 <ais523> I'm not even sure an animated screenshot makes sense
21:54:28 <Deewiant> If it weren't for that, it'd be truly pointless
21:55:18 <oklopol_> if that's not art then *i'm* not art.
21:56:50 <ehird> i'm going to play frogger now
21:57:27 <oklopol_> also turns out it's a proof in algebra II that infinite spaces always have an independent basis too
22:00:23 <oklopol_> i'm not gonna get to "algebra" in years
22:05:33 * kerlo realizes that the number 13 has magical being-close-to-100-when-multiplied-by-8 powers
22:07:23 <ehird> anagolf strips whitespace
22:07:27 <ehird> FireFly: so wutz the code?
22:07:29 <kerlo> I don't like non-ASCII characters all that much.
22:07:47 <FireFly> Well, are you supposed to print \n or not?
22:07:56 <fizzie> One of our automagical-checkery programming homeworks was "do matrix inversion in C++", and the results-checker checked for exact match, so you had to perform all the operations in exactly the right order, to get the floating-point inaccuracies done the same way.
22:07:58 <ehird> FireFly: it doesnt matter
22:08:16 <FireFly> Then my Befunge should be correct
22:08:46 <ehird> fizzie: how is that short
22:09:06 <FireFly> I couln't think of anything shorter
22:09:28 <ehird> 22:08 FireFly: "%hpvs{$0sppiL"v
22:09:29 <ehird> 22:08 FireFly: <<<<<<,-4_@#:<<<
22:09:33 <ehird> he's trying to golf hello world
22:10:00 <FireFly> Without the letters "H", "e" etc. in the source
22:10:13 <FireFly> "Helloworldless Hello world"
22:10:27 <ehird> just do 1+ before outpu
22:10:32 <ehird> and subtract one from the chars
22:10:48 <fizzie> 4- is just as good as 1+.
22:11:09 <FireFly> Eg. you get chars that are forbitten
22:11:35 <oklopol_> err aren't there 16 numbers in befunge
22:12:07 <oklopol_> i have a hunch one of them doesn't have the illegal chars
22:12:11 <ais523> oklopol_: e and d are numbers in hello world
22:12:19 <fizzie> Yes, well, if that 4- in the code works, I don't see why it matters which one you pick.
22:12:21 <ehird> "e and d are numbers"
22:12:24 <ais523> so you only have 14 working numbers
22:12:35 <ais523> ehird: we're talking about Befunge-98
22:12:48 <ais523> so yes, e and d are indeed numbers
22:12:49 <ehird> this is in a string
22:13:00 <ais523> ehird: the aim's to write a helloworldless hello world
22:13:01 <Deewiant> Characters are also numbers FWIW
22:13:15 <oklopol_> fizzie: oh right didn't even read the source, assumed ehird readit :P
22:13:17 <fizzie> ehird: And you can't put "d+" in code either, since, you know, it's a d.
22:13:18 <ehird> But the letters e and d are not numbers :P
22:13:55 <oklopol_> kinda like 5 and 2 aren't numbers?
22:14:21 <fizzie> e is approximately 2.718281828.
22:14:34 <ais523> e (hex) = 14 (decimal)
22:14:59 <fizzie> oklopol_: Why are you telling me this? I'm not teaching you hex.
22:15:04 <ais523> apparently apart from ehird
22:15:14 <oklopol_> fizzie: did we make the same joke?
22:15:15 <ehird> but you said e in a string
22:15:19 <ehird> it's a letter there
22:15:33 <oklopol_> or did you just not get it was making one
22:15:57 <fizzie> oklopol_: I thought you might, but that's the problem with randomness: you can never be sure.
22:16:30 <FireFly> So, IMO my code should validate
22:16:32 <oklopol_> fizzie: you can indeed never be sure; doesn't mean you don't have to guess correctly
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22:42:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw exact bounds will be a compile time option for cfunge
22:42:55 <ais523> oh, so you can have incorrect y output but faster speed?
22:43:44 <AnMaster> ais523, most programs doesn't depend on the bounds shrinking when space is written
22:44:02 <AnMaster> and even though it isn't complete yet it already slows down execution...
22:44:29 <AnMaster> that is, with old bounds that never shrink
22:44:42 <AnMaster> with partly implemented exact bounds: real 0m0.046s
22:45:40 <AnMaster> (with an initial run before to reduce "not in memory cache"-effect)
22:46:17 <AnMaster> that is also redirecting output to /dev/null to reduce factors such as terminal
22:46:25 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
22:47:15 <AnMaster> (output to terminal adds about 0.020 in fully buffered mode, and 0.050 in the default line buffered mode)
22:49:35 <ais523> yay, Google INTERCAL style guide back up
22:49:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I have a local copy from google cache saved here
22:49:56 <ais523> and same place as before
22:50:11 <ais523> http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html
22:50:30 <ais523> I grabbed a copy from the live.com cache, it wasn't in the Google or Yahoo caches for some reason when I checked
22:50:32 <AnMaster> http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ <-- ?
22:50:44 <ais523> AnMaster: they seem to be the same website
22:51:02 <ais523> the second one's just the one that mentions INTERCAL whenever you ask it a question
22:52:00 <AnMaster> "CADIE is getting tired of your simple requests. Please request something more challenging."
22:52:07 <ais523> well, not always, just usually
22:52:25 <ais523> incidentally, much of that INTERCAL style guide is in fact very sane
22:52:31 <ais523> most of the decisions are justified well
22:52:37 <AnMaster> "The bit-shifting code necessary for your request would actually be easier to do in INTERCAL. Have you considered changing languages?"
22:52:57 <ais523> wow, the person who wrote that actualy knew enough INTERCAL to make that statement
22:53:13 <ais523> bit-shifting is one of the only things which is actually occasionally easier in INTERCAL
22:53:17 <AnMaster> ais523, some responses contain embedded intercal even
22:53:33 <ais523> paste it anyway, pastebin if necessary
22:54:12 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/tNy0hj51.html
22:54:12 <ais523> DO :3 <- '"'"'"'".1$':1~#32768'"~"#1109$#1"'$':1~#128'"~#2735'$':1~"#546$#0"'"~"#43679"'$':1~"#1365$#0"'"~"#1023$#63"'$'"'"'".1$#0"~#34959'$':1~"#0$#1170"'"~#11007'$':1~"#0$#2925"'"~"#2005$#255"'
22:54:22 <AnMaster> ais523, that's yet another one
22:54:28 <AnMaster> what was the message connected to it?
22:54:41 <ais523> "JavaScript is obsolete and inefficient. CADIE thinks you should use INTERCAL.", and you can guess the language
22:54:49 <AnMaster> "Seriously, get back to work." <-- haha
22:54:54 <ais523> it isn't yet another, that one's in your paste
22:55:15 <ais523> anyway, that big expression, let me run it through C-INTERCAL's expression explainer
22:55:21 <ais523> thanks to the work by Joris, it's quite good now
22:55:29 <AnMaster> <form id="cse" action="http://www.google.com/cse" accept-charset="utf-8" class="gsc-search-box" onsubmit="executeGSearch(document.getElementById('gsearchInput').value); return false;">
22:56:17 <ais523> C1: Expression is (((((((((.1 $ (! (! (:1 & 0x8000)))) ~ 0x202223) $ (! (! (:1 & 0x80)))) ~ 0xaaf) $ (:1 ~ 0x80808)) ~ 0xaa9f) $ (:1 ~ 0x222222)) ~ 0xaafff) $ ((((((.1 $ 0x0) ~ 0x888f) $ (:1 ~ 0x104104)) ~ 0x2aff) $ (:1 ~ 0x451451)) ~ 0x2af777))
22:56:29 <ais523> hmm... if that's the best my optimiser can do, it needs work
22:56:47 <ais523> also, it means that Google wrote that expression themselves rather than just cribbing from the manual
22:56:50 <ais523> which is always nice to know
22:56:56 <AnMaster> ais523, but page didn't reload between asking questions, and it was instant reply (which excludes ajax), so it must be javascript with embedded responses
22:57:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess there is someone at google that programmed in intercal for fun or so
22:57:54 <AnMaster> ais523, but it would be interesting to know who this mastermind is
22:58:05 <ais523> http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/js/cadie.js implies it's reading from a program
22:58:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and what does that expression actually do? I mean if you hand optimise it
22:58:14 <ais523> and it's almost certainly either Don Woods or Brain Raiter
22:58:20 <ais523> AnMaster: it'll take a while to hand-optimise
22:58:28 <ais523> but my guess is it's doing some sort of bitshifting
22:58:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/js/cadie.js implies it's reading from a program <-- hm?
22:58:40 <ais523> *reading from a spreadsheer
22:58:49 <AnMaster> ais523, which is located where?
22:59:03 <AnMaster> oh google spreadsheet thingy? right
22:59:13 <AnMaster> I guess it pre-loads it or something
23:00:52 <ais523> see, e.g. http://spreadsheets.google.com/feeds/list/py7xyB-w6v8IDNWEywmxKJA/od6/public/basic
23:01:16 <AnMaster> ais523, bleh I had just pasted the same url in my input line in my irc client
23:01:22 <AnMaster> and saw you pasted it a few seconds before
23:01:48 <ais523> "Have you thoroughly considered the security issues with JavaScript? CADIE reminds you that all INTERCAL programs are known to be 100% secure, thanks to the language's inability to access files or other resources."
23:01:52 <ais523> someone show them CLC-INTERCAL
23:03:03 <AnMaster> messages: My favorite Python scripts start with the line<br>
23:03:17 <AnMaster> I wonder... has anyone coded that?
23:03:28 <AnMaster> "messages: CADIE is busy porting j2ee to INTERCAL, but it's taking a lot of CPU time."
23:03:35 <ais523> mportError: No module named INTERCAL
23:03:42 <ais523> so apparently I don't have it installed
23:03:54 <AnMaster> ais523, not in standard distribution of course, was just wondering if it exists at all
23:04:14 <ais523> if there is, I don't know of it
23:08:00 <ais523> hmm... http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-July/016406.html
23:10:10 <ais523> <Google> Do not write comments in lowercase. Lowercase in INTERCAL source code looks really weird. Just trust us on this one.
23:10:46 <AnMaster> ais523, some questions about that style guide:
23:10:54 <ais523> also, Google officially condone Atari syntax, that would lead to some holy wars if there were sufficiently many people who cared
23:11:01 <AnMaster> Setting .5 to #2/#3 instead of #1/#2
23:11:03 <ais523> that's sort of like officially favouring Emacs over vim
23:11:21 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the Atari syntax?
23:11:36 <ais523> AnMaster: Atari syntax = C-INTERCAL-style, with $ and ?
23:11:56 <ais523> Princeton syntax = CLC-INTERCAL-style, with β and Β’
23:12:10 <AnMaster> ais523, so what about that .5 thing?
23:12:29 <AnMaster> and why not DO or PLEASE inside comments?
23:12:48 <ais523> anyway, the .5 thing is because INTERCAL-72's only flow control construct was computed RESUME, #2 and #3 are easier boolean values to calculate with but #1 and #2 are easier to use for flow control
23:13:10 <ais523> and no DO or PLEASE inside comments because they crash the program if you do
23:13:24 <ais523> unless you're clever and work the characters NOT in immediately afterwards, like Donald Knuth did
23:13:27 <oklopol_> heyyy ais523 i had a mathematica question
23:13:37 <ais523> AnMaster: # = decimal constant
23:13:53 <ais523> maximum of 65535, even though INTERCAL can use up to 32-bit numbers
23:14:04 <ais523> it's one of those arbitrary restrictions that exists for no obvious reason
23:14:43 <AnMaster> "Above all, be consistent. If you're editing code, take a few hours to look at the code around you and understand its style. If they always use rabbit-ears for their outermost group, you should too. If they always prefix RESTORE statements with PLEASE, you should do the same. If they have internal spaces in their expression, you should go through the file and remove them, and then look to see what oth
23:14:43 <AnMaster> er files they might have edited and fix those as well."
23:14:57 <ais523> as a personal thing, I always prefix GIVE UP with PLEASE
23:15:12 <AnMaster> ais523, heh, what about the other ones
23:15:14 <ais523> and NEXT with DO, if I need a PLEASE on the line I'll write e.g. PLEASE DO (1) NEXT so I don't drop the DO
23:15:17 <oklopol_> and if you sort a list of lists, it uses the basic lexicographical comparison
23:15:29 <AnMaster> ais523, what exactly does the DO do?
23:15:30 <ehird> http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/ itt: cadie commits suicide
23:15:32 <oklopol_> but {...}<{...} tries to do numeric comparison
23:15:38 <ais523> oklopol_: you may want to check the docs, it probably has options somewhere
23:15:47 <ais523> AnMaster: statement separator, like ; in C
23:15:52 <ais523> except the DO comes before the statement
23:16:11 <oklopol_> ais523: there's no "generic comparison"?
23:16:24 <ais523> oklopol_: I don't know of one
23:16:37 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeJ9Q40kIR0 β could they have done it less morbidly?
23:16:40 <oklopol_> well i guess you don't know everything about it, just feels like you.
23:16:52 <AnMaster> ais523, right. You could do that (mostly) in C too
23:17:07 <ais523> oklopol_: I was working on the Turing machine thing, that hardly involved numbers at all
23:17:19 <ais523> besides, I'd been working too much on Thutu at the time
23:17:25 <ais523> and was writing Mathematica Thutu-style, that was fun
23:17:44 <ais523> you could put DO at the end of the line in INTERCAL as well
23:17:49 <oklopol_> ais523: i don't want numbers, the problem is exactly that mathematica treats my lists as numbers.
23:18:10 <ais523> INTERCAL's whitespace rules aren't widely really understood, I was having a discussion with sorear a while back about if you could put whitespace inside constants
23:18:19 <ais523> certainly, nobody /implements/ that, but...
23:18:35 <ais523> AnMaster: it might be helpful when sending C over Usenet
23:18:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I have actually seen erlang code written like that (in if/case blocks)
23:18:41 <ais523> which often garbles the indentation
23:18:55 <ais523> OCaml's often written like that with | rather than ;
23:19:35 <AnMaster> http://www.erlang.org/eeps/eep-0028.html
23:19:42 <ehird> ais523: You know you hate how you can't send python over irc?
23:19:55 <ais523> you can hardly send it over anything
23:19:59 <ais523> even email borks sometimes if the lines are long
23:20:09 <ehird> I never have that issue, re: email
23:20:17 <ehird> ais523: I devised a syntax that can be done in s-expressions on one line, but uses indentation for multi line
23:20:22 <ehird> special for var from to code
23:20:27 <ehird> while ($ var) < ($ to)
23:20:31 <ehird> $ var = ($ var) + 1
23:20:35 <ehird> translated to s-expr:
23:20:44 <ehird> it's short enough, who cares
23:20:46 <ais523> AnMaster: well, yes, but that's less convenient, they both are
23:21:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that looked nice though
23:21:22 <ehird> (special for var from to code (template (= loop (fun (do (= ($ var) ($ from)) (while (< ($ var) ($ to)) (do ($ code) (= ($ var) (+ ($ var) 1))))))) (loop)))
23:21:38 <ehird> ais523: so it's s-expy in the internal form, but pythony in the code
23:21:50 <AnMaster> ehird, do you have automatic translator between the two forms?
23:21:53 <AnMaster> ehird, also what about comments
23:21:58 <ais523> personally I like the Haskell solution, add { ; } if you think the indentation might get messed up
23:21:58 <ehird> AnMaster: ... no, it's a proposed syntax for a language
23:22:00 <ehird> and who the heck cares
23:22:09 <ehird> why do you always concentrate on the edge cases
23:22:21 <ais523> because the edge cases take 90% of the time
23:22:24 <ehird> ais523: Haskell code tends to edge further and further rightways, it looks unbalanced
23:22:30 <ehird> and no, it's trivial
23:22:37 <oklopol_> elephants are usually pretty edgy
23:22:39 <ais523> seriously, the project I'm writing up for University at the moment was almost all edge cases
23:22:40 <AnMaster> ehird, because I don't think worse _is_ better
23:22:41 <ehird> special # &rest args ()
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23:23:10 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm trying to present the initial idea for a new language syntax that fixes python vs s-exprs and allows for tons of self-modifying while keeping the syntax simple
23:23:15 <ehird> and all you can say is WHAT ABOUT COMMENTS???
23:23:20 <ehird> that's not worse is not better
23:23:23 <ehird> that's just ridiculous
23:23:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I like the idea. But I also wondered about it.
23:23:59 <ehird> 23:21 AnMaster: ehird, do you have automatic translator between the two forms?
23:23:59 <ehird> 23:21 AnMaster: ehird, also what about comments
23:24:06 <AnMaster> what is it with you and hating to see broken cases for your ideas?
23:24:07 <ehird> it seemed more like 'idea-death by a thousand cuts' to me, but whatever
23:24:11 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not broken
23:24:15 <ehird> 23:22 ehird: special # &rest args ()
23:24:19 <ehird> it's just trivial, boring and irrelevant
23:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird, the first was a genuine question, since you seemed to indicate it was for python over indention mangling protocols
23:25:01 <ehird> actually, I devised it as an alternative to s-exps
23:25:16 <ehird> the fact that you can make an irc-friendly version of all code is just a side effect of that
23:26:04 <AnMaster> ehird, good think it isn't haskell then ;P You would have needed some monad then
23:26:12 <ehird> ais523: btw, in that, template = quasiquote and $ = unquote
23:26:15 <ehird> if it seems familiar
23:26:27 <ehird> yeah, non-hygenic macros, too lazy to make a real system atm
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23:27:20 <AnMaster> <ais523> seriously, the project I'm writing up for University at the moment was almost all edge cases <-- hm? what is it?
23:27:32 <ehird> AnMaster: you should stalk people more.
23:27:36 <ais523> compiling imperative languages into hardware
23:27:45 <ais523> I think I've mentioned it here before
23:27:53 <fizzie> You did take a look at the I-expression SRFI, right? It's just that it supports any mix of indentation-based and S-expressions you happen to want. Although I haven't looked at either i-exprs or your syntax very closely, and am not going to right now either.
23:27:53 <ais523> really, the only case that comes up in practice is trivial
23:27:58 <ehird> AnMaster: so you know every intimate detail about them.
23:28:14 <ehird> fizzie: i-exprs are crap; mapping directly on to an existing language is a recipe for failure
23:28:16 <ais523> some of the more obscure edge cases need people to be writing third-order non-recursive functions in their simple imperative langauge to trigger them
23:28:18 <AnMaster> ais523, yes you did, but it could have been some other interesting project
23:28:22 <ehird> i started with the pythonic form and then thought about the sexp form
23:29:09 <ehird> for example, in mine, if/else is
23:29:18 <oklopol_> ais523: so you decided you need to perfect them so crazy people don't get mad?
23:29:19 <ehird> which turns into (if foo bar else baz)
23:29:35 <ais523> oklopol_: no, I'm perfecting them in an attempt to do a perfect project
23:29:54 <ais523> besides, it's a mathematically interesting problem which may lead to a paper
23:29:57 <ais523> handling all cases, that is
23:30:13 <oklopol_> ais523: i know, it's just the oerjanization process taking place.
23:30:54 <ais523> I didn't even realise you were trying to pun
23:31:03 <ais523> the sentence made sense without it, after all
23:31:26 <ehird> razy people are already mad
23:31:29 <ehird> if so that's a shit pun
23:31:39 <ehird> it just lacks the funny
23:32:25 <oklopol_> i'm not into intuitive definitions of funniness
23:32:36 <oklopol_> it was an intelligent mix of two meanings of mad
23:32:38 <ehird> http://www.erlang.org/eeps/eep-0028.html β wow they totally ripped off python's pep process
23:33:09 <ais523> ehird: Python has Emergency Sessions?
23:33:21 <ehird> haha, megaupload replaced their crackable-by-js-neural-net captchas, and now they're unreadable to humans
23:33:25 <ehird> http://wwwq23.megaupload.com/gencap.php?27263f7e2ab352b7.gif
23:34:30 <ais523> why were people writing captcha crackers in js anyway?
23:34:44 <ehird> ais523: to make them a greasemonkey script
23:34:48 <ais523> also, that link's coming up blank for me
23:34:50 <ehird> so that you could download megaupload files without entering the captcha
23:34:57 <ehird> also, darn, just go to http://www.megaupload.com/?d=20OEDUG5
23:35:18 <ais523> and that looks /really trivial/ to crack compared to most CAPTCHAs
23:35:28 <ehird> it is trivial, which is funny
23:35:30 <ehird> but it's hard to read
23:35:35 <ehird> maybe you got a good one out of luck
23:35:43 <ais523> I get the same one every time I refresh
23:36:00 <ais523> I was wondering about that, but I don't think so
23:36:41 <ehird> "shit was SO cache"
23:39:57 <ehird> oklopol_: *algebri
23:41:13 <ehird> it's algebri goddamn
23:41:29 <Robdgreat> I'm actually seeing algebras more than algebri
23:41:59 <ehird> Robdgreat: yes well, virii is wrong too everyone knows it's viri
23:43:07 <ais523> I think technically speaking the plural is actually viruses, but nobody believes it
23:43:12 <oklopol_> viri would make most sense because cacti and shit
23:43:25 <oklopol_> ais523: this is not about actual plurals but forced latin plurals
23:43:41 <AnMaster> static const funge_unsigned_cell cf_uzero = 0;
23:43:41 <AnMaster> static const funge_unsigned_cell cf_uone = 1;
23:43:56 <AnMaster> (I need to pass some stuff as pointers to this yes...)
23:44:15 <Robdgreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_of_virus#Virus fwiw
23:44:31 <ais523> you mean there's a Wikipedia article about it?
23:45:02 <ehird> yes I know it's viruses
23:45:09 <ehird> Deewiant: I think you greatly misrepresented how loud 22db is :-)
23:45:48 <ais523> ehird: about 160 or so times as loud as 0db
23:45:53 <Robdgreat> I was just impressed that there's a wikipedia article section that aims to put the myth to rest >.>
23:46:00 <ehird> ais523: Thank you. You're really helpful.
23:46:10 <ehird> Robdgreat: it's VIRI!
23:46:15 <ehird> MODERN PLURALIZATIONNNNNNNNNNNN
23:47:00 <ais523> Robdgreat: not virΔs?
23:47:10 <oklopol_> so next, mathematical formulas, electronics, analysis, compression, networks or processors?
23:47:12 <ais523> or have I got the declention wrong?
23:48:00 <Robdgreat> this terminal fails. doesn't do unicode. I need to gtfo of work right now anyway, bbl
23:48:00 <ais523> oklopol_: I was leaving you to wonder which 2
23:48:46 <oklopol_> well only possible split is probably processors vs rest
23:49:06 <oklopol_> or that's not possible either in which case all would be, right
23:49:26 <oklopol_> judging by my sentences sleeping might work too
23:49:41 <oklopol_> i mean i have no idea what i'm saying.
23:50:02 <ais523> well, I have no idea what I'm sayin either
23:50:51 <oklopol_> anyway you ppl haven't made the decision for me yet.
23:51:16 <oklopol_> fungot: could you have like a choice function
23:51:17 <fungot> oklopol_: swing, and swt relate? combs ( list-string combs))) without using " if" or " jumping into a snake pit" ( fnord)
23:51:26 <ehird> yes=latter, no=former
23:51:52 <ehird> oklopol_: well so?
23:52:07 <ehird> oklopol_: here's how to do it
23:52:09 <oklopol_> well you know i'd get too much information.
23:52:38 <ehird> mathematical formulas, electronics, analysis, compression, networks or processors
23:52:39 <ehird> compression, networks or processors
23:52:41 <ehird> no (first half, round up)
23:52:43 <ehird> compression, networks
23:53:02 <ehird> oklopol_: who cares about fairness
23:53:34 <ais523> I've known servers where ChanServ had a random-number function
23:53:36 <ehird> oklopol_: python -c '__import__("random").choice(["math formulas","electronics","analysis","compression","networks","processors"])'
23:53:42 <oklopol_> if i wanted an unfair distribution, i'd ask humans.
23:53:47 <ehird> oklopol_: er python -c 'print __import__("random").choice(["math formulas","electronics","analysis","compression","networks","processors"])'
23:54:13 <oklopol_> nice i get to use my ubuntu powers
23:54:22 <ehird> magical ubuntu powers.
23:54:26 <ehird> that i shall have soon.
23:55:27 <oklopol_> "math formulas" it seems; good choice
23:58:17 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't that: python -c 'print(__import__("random").choice(["math formulas","electronics","analysis","compression","networks","processors"]))'
23:58:26 <AnMaster> or do you have anything against python 3?
23:58:32 <ehird> AnMaster: nobody uses python 3 because no libraries support it
23:58:39 <ehird> and the official python places recommend against using it
23:59:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:59:45 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, but IMO any esolang projects in python should be polygots between 2 and 3
23:59:59 <ehird> This was an esolang project?
00:00:03 <AnMaster> btw is it even possible to write a non-trivial 2/3 polygot
00:00:16 <ehird> import sys; prunt = sys.stdout.write
00:00:20 <ehird> prunt('Hello, world!\n')
00:00:21 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe it wasn't, maybe it was just in #esoteric
00:00:25 <ehird> It's not hard if you keep within the boundaries.
00:00:48 <AnMaster> ehird, it is harder writing a C extension that works with both indeed
00:00:54 <ehird> AnMaster: so don't do that
00:00:55 <oklopol_> usually i want my randomization done in interesting and novel ways
00:00:59 <ehird> since nobody uses 3
00:01:09 <AnMaster> well nobody uses 3 because nothing supports it
00:01:18 <ehird> Untrue: work is underway.
00:01:20 <ehird> It's not too stable yet.
00:01:28 <AnMaster> the only way to make more people use it would be to support it
00:01:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well I found a crash bug in python 3 thanks to porting a C extension
00:02:39 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit").
00:02:51 <AnMaster> because of a bug in one of the the C API functions that tried to convert a PyUnicode to PyByterray twice, in an unchecked way
00:04:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I tried to, but the bug reporting system never managed to send me the confirmation email
00:05:09 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
00:05:15 <AnMaster> probably the issue is at my isp
00:05:41 <ehird> Hey, when I get bogons I can be pretentious about my ISP.
00:05:43 <ehird> It's the little things!
00:06:11 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I forgot what exact API call it was by now. I worked around it in some way iirc
00:07:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I did report it in #python with a note about that the bug tracker was broken for me.
00:08:08 <AnMaster> (really, I need to go up early tomorrow so...)
00:08:45 <ehird> Another installment in the "That classes as _music_?" series: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_po0RTKjsC8&fmt=18
00:19:12 <ehird> oklopol_: it goes on for 30 minutes
00:19:18 <ehird> apparently it reaches 120dB
00:19:48 <oklopol_> oh it actually sounds like that
00:21:30 <ehird> http://forum.slicehost.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=3234&page=1#Item_0
00:24:21 <ehird> As far as I can tell, bogons is just two people.
00:31:36 <bsmntbombdood> but grepping a tarball of the same directory only takes 15 seconds
00:33:23 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: directory iteration is slow
00:33:30 <ehird> and, well, files in general.
00:34:13 <bsmntbombdood> there's a stat,open,and close for every single file :/
00:34:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: don't grep a directory tree.
00:35:03 <ehird> consolidate multiple files.
00:40:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:40:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: What?
00:41:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Well, there's no other solution.
00:41:19 <ehird> That's how the fs apis are.
00:42:11 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:42:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Do you have a language impediment?
00:44:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: sorry to disappoint
00:44:42 <oerjan> <oklopol_> was just wondering could there be an infinite vector space for which there is no linearly independent subset which generates the space
00:45:09 <oklopol_> oerjan: so whether they always have a basis
00:45:24 <oerjan> 13:29:18 <Deewiant> Intuition says 'no'
00:45:24 <oerjan> 13:29:27 <Deewiant> But I guess with the AoC anything can happen ;-P
00:45:33 <oerjan> in fact AoC is used in the proof
00:46:24 <oklopol_> wait the axiom of death is used in it and it's on the same course as me
00:46:47 <ehird> the axiom of death: exists P. P&~P
00:47:34 <oerjan> or more directly, you use Zorn's lemma
00:48:10 <oklopol_> ah that's actually just a few pages down the material
00:48:19 <oklopol_> i think i'll leave it for next week
00:48:22 <oerjan> basically, if you have an independent set which does _not_ generate all, you can always extend it, and you can take the union of a chain of them
00:48:54 <oklopol_> and then you just take the smallest supremum
00:48:55 <oerjan> so Zorn's lemma applies to say a maximal chain generates all
00:49:21 <oerjan> there's no _the_ smallest supremum, because the extension is not unique
00:49:43 <ehird> does exists P. P&~P actually break anything
00:49:44 <oerjan> (also supremum is always smallest by definition
00:49:48 <ehird> I mean you still can't get to a P
00:50:17 <oklopol_> ehird: assume there exists P such that P&~P, then true=false => everything is true
00:50:42 <oerjan> oklopol_: that's not quite a first order proof though
00:50:43 <ehird> I was concentrating on the 'exists P.' part
00:51:16 <oklopol_> i want a "schaum's mathematical handbook with proofs"
00:51:44 <oerjan> oklopol_: also, Zorn's lemma is needed exactly to know that a maximal set exists
00:52:31 <oerjan> P => (A => P) is an axiom
00:53:44 <oerjan> so you get for that P, A => (P & ~P)
00:53:47 <ehird> oerjan: that's not true, because what if P is true by an axiom
00:54:18 <oerjan> ehird: em now i'm also using the P&~P hypothesis
00:55:02 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal").
00:55:19 <oerjan> maybe this is overkill
00:56:07 <oerjan> and false => A is an axiom
00:56:51 <oklopol_> that's pretty much what i was going for
00:57:31 <ehird> yes but there's a reason I said 'exists'
00:57:34 <oerjan> so P & ~P => A (which could also be an axiom)
00:57:54 <oerjan> well then you need to use the quantifier rules
00:59:10 <oerjan> exists P. P & ~P => exists P. A
00:59:18 <oerjan> if that's not an axiom, it's close
00:59:34 <oerjan> finally, you can remove existentials if the variable is unused
01:02:12 <oerjan> of course since the set of axioms can vary by formulation, this is all a bit wishy-washy
01:02:44 <oerjan> *axioms/deduction rules
01:03:18 <ehird> P => ~P β tip: Use "really untrue" things.
01:03:34 <oklopol_> yes kinda like a broken washing machine
01:03:53 <oerjan> P => ~P is equivalent to ~P, anyway
01:05:10 <oerjan> well in principle, but A => B = ~A \/ B (in classical logic), not &
01:05:36 <oklopol_> point is the redundancy was relevant to ehird's weird point
01:05:50 <oerjan> also P => ~P is equivalent to ~P with just intuitionist logic
01:05:55 <ehird> i was formulating new logic
01:06:00 <ehird> you have regular true things which are untrue
01:06:04 <ehird> so you have to use really untrue things
01:06:09 <ehird> really untrue = ~~~
01:06:39 <oklopol_> oerjan: what do you mean with just intuitionistic logic?
01:07:06 <oklopol_> actually isn't intuitionist logic a well-known logic, probably referred to that
01:07:08 <oerjan> intuitionist logic is a logic where the excluded middle doesn't hold, among other things
01:07:29 <oerjan> and where you cannot rewrite => & \/ in terms of each other
01:07:37 <oklopol_> i've just had one course in logic, and it was more about proving stuff than the general philosophical issues
01:07:39 <oerjan> although ~P = P => false still
01:07:50 <oklopol_> and by philosophy i mean other kinds of logics
01:08:37 <ehird> Under the Curry-Howard isomorphism, Peirce's law is the type of continuation operators, e.g. call/cc in Scheme[1].
01:08:41 <ehird> that's fucking hot
01:09:13 <ehird> oklopol_: ((p->q)->p)->q
01:09:19 <ehird> curry-howard isomorphism is like the best ting to happen to programming
01:09:44 <oerjan> intuitionistic logic corresponds to ordinary typed lambda calculus, while classical logic (with peirce's law etc.) corresponds to a lambda calculus with continuations
01:09:46 <oklopol_> hard to say, i don't understand it.
01:10:00 <ehird> modusPonens :: (p -> q, p) -> q
01:10:05 <ehird> modusPonens (f,x) = f x
01:10:30 <ehird> (where "data Void")
01:11:05 <oklopol_> yeah i've seen the definitions in many forms
01:11:13 <ehird> so how don't you understand it
01:11:19 <ehird> type = proposition, non-bottom implementation = proof
01:12:06 <oerjan> falseImpEverything :: Void -> a
01:12:12 <oklopol_> i mean just seeing a syntactical mapping between types and logic doesn't really tell me much.
01:12:17 <oerjan> falseImpEverything x = case x of {}
01:12:28 <ehird> that's a bottom implementation
01:12:46 <oerjan> because Void has no constructors
01:12:47 <ehird> (although you can't get any (Not a) with no-bottom rule, so maybe we need a better definition)
01:12:56 <ehird> (i mean maybe I am wrong)
01:13:25 <ehird> there's no value of type Void that isn't bottom
01:13:52 <ehird> oerjan: youc an't implement that
01:13:54 <oerjan> so you need to start with a contradiction
01:14:06 <oerjan> well you said _any_ Not a
01:14:17 <oerjan> there are specific a's you can get
01:14:41 <ehird> i guess you have to go into axiom land to get more
01:14:43 <oerjan> another would be ~(p & ~p)
01:14:47 <ehird> which involves bottom, I guess
01:14:58 <ehird> ((p, p -> Void) -> Void)
01:15:10 <ehird> prove with fix, I assume?
01:15:20 <ehird> how can you prove that
01:15:43 <ehird> oerjan: you don't have a (p,q)
01:15:47 <ehird> you have a ((p,q)->Void)
01:16:05 <ehird> ((p, p -> Void) -> Void)
01:16:12 <ehird> so how can you prove
01:16:15 <oerjan> f :: ((p, p -> Void) -> Void)
01:16:24 <ehird> you mean proving ~(p&~p)
01:16:33 <ehird> instead of proving Not ~(p&~p)
01:17:27 <oerjan> for anything of the form Not a, the intuitionist and classical tautologies are the same btw.
01:17:44 <ehird> oklopol_: yeah it's pretty hot isn't it, every piece of code you write is a proof of some proposition
01:18:37 <ehird> oklopol_: erm python doesn't really have types as such...
01:19:04 <oerjan> it works best with functional languages
01:19:23 <oklopol_> well i was mainly hoping for a fun pun answer
01:19:27 <ehird> functional strongly typed langs
01:19:54 <oerjan> oklopol_: the serpent calculus
01:20:15 <oerjan> i'm sure that is fun if you get the obscure logic reference
01:20:41 <oklopol_> but i'll just assume it is really something.
01:20:42 <oerjan> sequent calculus is a way of axiomatizing logics
01:21:54 <oklopol_> right was too busy correcting my keyboard's errors to see mine
01:21:56 <ehird> You agree that neither you nor any person using the Service with your permission shall use the Service: for any fraudulent, criminal or unlawful purpose; to send unsolicited advertising or promotional material (or to engage in any "spamming" activity); to transmit any virus, worm, trojan horse or other harmful material; for the purpose of intimidating, harassing or causing annoyance to any third party
01:22:02 <ehird> being annoying = illegal
01:25:12 <oklopol_> so err f (q, p) = p q proves f :: ((p, p -> Void) -> Void), but can't you prove the inverse, f :: (p, p -> Void), with simply having f be a pair of (some value, function that bottoms)
01:25:20 <oklopol_> no i don't think i still get it.
01:25:44 <ehird> oklopol_: you cant use bottom
01:27:24 <ehird> oklopol_: using bottom isn't allowed
01:27:39 <oklopol_> where did i use it incorrectly?
01:27:49 <oklopol_> i was thinking f = (value, mockingbird)
01:27:58 <ehird> (some value, function that bottoms)
01:28:11 <ehird> in any circumstance
01:28:31 <oerjan> only terminating functions allowed
01:28:45 <oerjan> otherwise your logic is inconsistent
01:30:08 <oklopol_> so how isn't f (q, p) = p q wrong then, p bottoms
01:30:13 <oerjan> also, the mockingbird doesn't type in ordinary haskell
01:30:20 <ehird> ... o rly oklopol_?
01:30:27 <oerjan> oklopol_: it's an argument
01:30:53 <oklopol_> ehird: wut? that was a question
01:30:56 <oerjan> yes, Void values bottom, so you cannot produce them, but you can still look at what happens if you get them in
01:31:43 <oklopol_> i mean (value, mockingbird) is a terminating implementation
01:32:01 <ehird> awesome, bogons.net cofounder posted about how he hates Phorm on a mailing list
01:32:02 <oerjan> it needs to be well-typed in the logic too
01:32:58 <oerjan> there _are_ ways to type the mockingbird, but they involve letting an expression have two types simultaneously
01:33:01 <oklopol_> oerjan: well okay mockingbird was a bad idea
01:33:50 <oerjan> (\a -> a a) :: (A /\ (A => B)) => B
01:34:02 <oerjan> but that's not a haskell or ML type
01:34:51 <oerjan> (/\ here has a different meaning than the (,) one, it means a should _actually_ be both types simultaneously)
01:39:11 <oklopol_> need to go give a friend a book at the railway station at exactly 8 am
01:39:19 <oerjan> "no sleep today, the milk has run awaaay"
01:39:28 <oerjan> or do i remember that wrong
01:40:05 <oerjan> i knew it, oklopol_ is a terrorist!
01:40:24 -!- oklopol_ has changed nick to oklopol.
01:40:55 <oerjan> who but a terrorist would show up at railway stations at exactly 8 am to give friends books
01:41:07 <oklopol> this guy has an exam on monday
01:41:15 <oerjan> i guess you _could_ be a secret agent
01:41:26 <oklopol> so it's somewhat crucial to get the book to him as early as possible
01:41:30 <oerjan> bomb making is no easy course
01:42:46 <oerjan> like, at least two weeks ago?
01:43:51 <oerjan> you don't need a railway station, you need a time machine
01:44:19 <oklopol> coolness is not only a top clicker, he's a dedicated reader too
01:45:03 <oerjan> #pokenet? is that some pokemon thing?
01:45:28 <oklopol> hmm err different coolness
01:45:39 <oklopol> i'm talking about the guy who played ehird's fun clickery game
01:46:44 <oklopol> he recently spent a week reading 16-20 hours a day, i have a long way to go.
01:50:22 <oklopol> and why are our university's pages constantly broken, i want to stare at my exam schedule :<
01:51:23 <oerjan> must be all the hackers doing exercises
01:52:30 <oklopol> sadly we don't have any explicit hacking courses
01:52:53 <oerjan> how can you be a successful terrorist university without hacking courses
01:53:38 <oklopol> i'm not sure i can parse that.
01:54:43 <oklopol> there are implicit hacking courses, you need to learn some non-hacking too
01:55:12 <oklopol> maybe it's so you can pretend you're not a terrorist when necessary
01:58:40 <oklopol> also maybe it's the university pretending that.
01:59:46 <oklopol> somehow deciding to stay awake because i'd only get a few hours of sleep reminds me of the story of the guy who threw all the eggs away because he dropped one.
02:00:57 * oklopol decides he probably shouldn't read because he didn't reach his quote anyway
02:03:06 <oklopol> wow i beat computer level 1 in reversi
02:22:22 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:56:54 <kerlo> A campfire hanging by a knotted string.
02:58:58 <kerlo> oklopol: that's not a random association at all.
02:59:16 <kerlo> It's a precisely appropriate association.
02:59:41 <kerlo> Mot juste, in fact.
03:00:32 <kerlo> Or mΕ zhΕos, as we reformers like to spell it. (The macrons are optional, but consider adding silent e's to compensate.)
03:02:25 <oerjan> what happened to the poor t
03:02:56 <kerlo> My English teacher failed to pronounce it.
03:03:02 <kerlo> I think the French don't or something.
03:03:41 <oerjan> i think your english teacher had a speech impediment
03:04:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:04:13 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mot_juste does not agree in either english or french
03:04:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
03:05:14 <oerjan> nor does http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mot+juste
03:06:35 -!- olsner has joined.
03:09:41 <oklopol> kerlo: it was? i must be smarter than i thought.
03:10:14 <oklopol> in fact it is not the exact same thing, half of the reason not to sleep is being afraid of not waking up in time
03:10:22 * kerlo puts the Humble Hat on oklopol.
03:10:31 <oklopol> but the other half is that egg thing.
03:10:54 <oerjan> it is very bad to wake up with egg on your face
03:11:03 <kerlo> Okay. MΕ zhΕost.
03:13:46 <oklopol> thought you meant the latter
03:14:15 <oerjan> in a self-referential way
03:14:58 <kerlo> What's an interesting use of o?
03:16:15 <oerjan> a use that is pronounced nowhere near lower back afaik
03:17:39 <oerjan> the french is of course an upper front rounded vowel
03:19:08 <kerlo> By "lower" and "upper", do you mean... well, no, I don't know what you mean.
03:19:28 <kerlo> Oh, low is open and high is close.
03:19:49 <kerlo> So the open-mid back rounded vowel is indeed near lower back.
03:19:56 <oerjan> terminology is so forble
03:20:32 <kerlo> And the "o" in "mot juste" is open-mid back rounded, if Wiktionary is trustworthy.
03:21:04 <oerjan> but the u is definitely not
03:21:11 <oerjan> that was the interesting part
03:21:11 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
03:23:40 <kerlo> So the "u" isn't like the stereotypical "u" at all.
03:24:21 <oerjan> unless you mean stereotypically french, in which case it is
03:26:41 <kerlo> I guess the anglicisation preserved the roundedness rather than the frontness.
03:27:49 <kerlo> Using Εo to mean the vowel in "goose".
03:29:15 <oerjan> i don't read either wiktionary or merriam-webster that way.
03:29:39 <oerjan> although the latter has its own strange set of pronunciation symbols
03:30:17 * oerjan suddenly realizes his typing is nowhere near touch these days
03:30:27 <kerlo> Well, Wiktionary's representation of that vowel is more like ΕΕ.
03:30:39 <kerlo> A long macron that goes right over both o's.
03:31:58 <oerjan> what i am saying is that neither actually says mot juste is pronounced with an oo sound in english
03:39:20 <kerlo> But hey, we're anglophones. We anglicise.
03:43:53 <oklopol> i think i'm going to save one egg by sleeping for an hour
03:44:24 <oklopol> wake me up at 7:30 if i'm not awake yet, current time being 5:54
03:45:15 <kerlo> oklopol, your clock is off by approximately 10 minutes.
03:45:19 <kerlo> Or maybe my clock sucks.
03:46:00 <oerjan> oklopol: and then you can have egg and bacon for breakfast! well, assuming you have bacon.
03:46:33 <oerjan> kerlo: it's a vacuum clock?
03:46:51 <oklopol> kerlo: three clocks here show the exact same time
03:47:03 <oklopol> so probably at least one of them is correct
03:47:43 <oerjan> actually i would assume the probability is either none, or exactly three are
03:47:44 <kerlo> No, they're all incorrect.
03:48:03 <oerjan> damn it's hard to touch type when you've slipped out of doing it properly
03:48:04 <kerlo> The correlation is probably due to a common cause that is not the correct time.
03:48:23 <kerlo> Like setting two of the clocks to the other.
03:48:32 <kerlo> Or setting all three clocks to an outside incorrect clock.
03:48:49 <oerjan> WHAT? WHO WOULD DO SUCH A SILLY THING?
03:48:51 <oklopol> the computer's clock was set a few years ago, and has been ticking silently in the corner of my room until i switched it on today
03:49:22 * oerjan wonders if the way he is usually typing is better for his wrists
03:49:23 <oklopol> my cell phone asks its time ...somewhere every time it boots
03:49:45 <oklopol> and the third clock was set by me, some time ago
03:50:04 <oklopol> kerlo: ideas for correlation?
03:50:14 <kerlo> Do you live in a very strange time zone?
03:50:20 <oklopol> well, me lying. but that's the easy way out
03:50:35 <oklopol> i don't think time zones get any stranger than 30 min off
03:50:39 <kerlo> UTC+3:50 or something?
03:50:42 <oerjan> YOUR HART IS FULL OF LYE!
03:50:58 <kerlo> What's your daylight saving time offset?
03:51:11 <oklopol> ah! ten minutes, that must be it
03:51:30 <oklopol> yeah so anyway take that into account when waking me up, sleep time
03:52:25 <oerjan> oklopol: actually there are some quarter zones
03:52:34 <kerlo> So wake you up at 00:20 local time.
03:53:12 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_time_zones
03:56:08 <oerjan> nepal, chatham islands, a village in australia (unofficial)
04:02:22 * kerlo separates sentences into chunks of unique letters
04:04:24 <kerlo> separ|ates |sent|enc|es into| chunks| of| uniq|ue l|et|ters
04:04:43 <kerlo> Touch typing challenge: type each of those chunks without moving the fingers between keys.
04:04:51 <kerlo> Only move fingers between keys between chunks.
04:08:11 <oerjan> next, keep one finger on backspace :D
04:08:50 <kerlo> I want a key that sends backspace about four times.
04:09:09 <oerjan> separates sentences damn
04:09:34 <oerjan> forgot space was not |
04:09:50 * oerjan gives up this exercise, which is stupid and STINKS
04:10:13 <kerlo> separsate ssentencesin tochukn of unique letters
04:10:18 <kerlo> I need more practice.
04:10:37 <oerjan> that sentence doesn't separse
04:12:25 <kerlo> I think I'll use more gentle chunking next time.
04:12:25 <oerjan> tochukn is probably a village in alaska
04:13:26 <kerlo> i[ th]i[nk ]il[]l [use] [more] ge[ntl]e chun[ki]n[g ]next[ ]time
04:13:33 <kerlo> Put a chunk break anywhere within the brackets.
04:17:32 <kerlo> i th|ink| il|l use| more| gentl|e chun|king| next| time
05:27:44 <oklopol> <oklopol> well, me lying. but that's the easy way out <<< in fact this turned out to be pretty close, i simply read the times wrong, the computer's clock is 10 min wrong :)
05:28:17 <oklopol> may still another one is wrong, i'll know only after more of it
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05:30:48 <MizardX> psygnisfive: http://www.n-tv.de/img/1131671_src_path.E3IA.jpg
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06:45:53 <oklopol> animals are a weird concept
06:47:54 <oerjan> because i woke up 7 hours ago?
06:48:13 <oerjan> although i did consider taking another nap
06:48:36 <oklopol> i'm not really even tired anymore
06:48:48 <oklopol> but i have a happy hunch i'm going to be, soon.
06:49:07 <oerjan> IT'S LIKE AN ADDICTION I TELLYA
06:50:05 <oklopol> our drummer has holy days from his army duty, and suggested we play today; god i hope we don't, so i can just you know dozerate all day long
06:51:42 <oklopol> also the guy i gave the book to is probably going to do fine, we went over the contents, and it seems the course is a pretty thorough review of about 8 other courses
06:54:05 <oerjan> holy days, sacred nights
06:55:25 <oerjan> you want to drive around wrecking the neigborhood?
06:55:55 <oerjan> wait, you already gave him the book? darn timezones
06:56:19 <oerjan> clearly it should involve a bulldozer somehow, right?
06:56:38 <oklopol> ah i thought it made sense somehow
06:56:54 <oklopol> but couldn't get my fingers to touch it.
07:07:38 <fungot> SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM ...too much output!
07:09:24 <oklopol> thanks a lot, 10 min into the episode, an ad pops up, plays for 80 minutes and the rest of the episode won't play
07:16:18 <oklopol> what's the coolest round object in germany?
07:17:19 * oerjan is reminded of that hitler globe
07:19:47 * oerjan finds http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/arts/design/18globe.html?_r=1
07:40:22 <oklopol> can you give me the cliff notes version
07:41:20 <oerjan> well the nazis made these huge globes, and hitler had several
07:41:43 <oerjan> and this guy is searching for the one that was at hitler's headquarters
07:41:59 <oerjan> and he doesn't think it's any of the ones at the known museums
07:42:58 <oerjan> well the one that claims to be it actually has a specially designed foot that matches one that was ordered for ribbentrof, not hitler
07:43:25 <oklopol> sounds like a pretty boring movie
07:43:31 <oerjan> i did not read it all very carefully
07:43:54 <oerjan> and there's a bit about chaplin in there
07:44:26 <oklopol> i read that one, recognized him in th epic
07:44:29 <oerjan> he apparently based a scene in The Great Dictator on parodying hitler and his globe
07:45:27 <oklopol> "uhh take that call me your fΓΌhrer"
07:45:44 <oklopol> well. likely or not, it's true
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09:18:48 <AnMaster> <bsmntbombdood> there's got to be a good way to do it <-- what about opening the partition itself and implementing a file system driver in your app, and then search directly that way?
09:19:14 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, 1) needs root 2) complex and messy
09:19:31 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, or you could create an index of the directory then search in that index
09:20:14 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, if you are searching C source files apps like cscope and ctags might be useful, depending on what exactly you want to search for
09:20:50 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, but you would mind rolling your own file system driver in userspace?
09:21:16 <AnMaster> you wouldn't write using it anywya
09:23:27 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, didn't you say reading an uncompressed tar was fast?
09:24:03 <AnMaster> <bsmntbombdood> so i go into a huge directory and grep foo -R .
09:24:03 <AnMaster> <bsmntbombdood> this takes like 3 minutes
09:24:03 <AnMaster> <bsmntbombdood> but grepping a tarball of the same directory only takes 15 seconds
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09:24:10 <AnMaster> sounds quite a bit faster yeah
09:24:31 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, so use a file system that compresses on the fly?
09:24:57 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, use solid state drive or ram disk?
09:25:20 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, um, how large was that directory then...?
09:26:56 <AnMaster> $ dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1G count=2
09:26:56 <AnMaster> 2147483648 bytes (2,1 GB) copied, 2,7549 s, 780 MB/s
09:27:15 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, warning: bs must be smaller than free ram
09:27:57 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, it is my computer. From late 2005.
09:28:08 <bsmntbombdood> 2147483648 bytes (2.1 GB) copied, 0.0419093 s, 51.2 GB/s
09:28:13 <AnMaster> Linux tux.lan 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 #1 Sat Jan 31 04:55:36 CET 2009 x86_64 AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3300+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
09:28:26 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, that would be faster probably
09:28:39 <AnMaster> $ dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1M count=2K
09:28:39 <AnMaster> 2147483648 bytes (2,1 GB) copied, 2,34859 s, 914 MB/s
09:28:55 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, probably faster due to cache
09:29:09 <AnMaster> $ dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=128K count=2K
09:29:10 <AnMaster> 268435456 bytes (268 MB) copied, 0,0579806 s, 4,6 GB/s
09:29:20 <bsmntbombdood> we are looking at a 4 order of magnitude difference here...
09:29:20 <AnMaster> the L2 cache on this CPU is 128 KB
09:30:16 <AnMaster> $ dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=128K count=50K
09:30:16 <AnMaster> 6710886400 bytes (6,7 GB) copied, 1,34931 s, 5,0 GB/s
09:30:44 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, single core Sempron from 2005, what do you expect?
09:32:00 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, actually this should be one of the few things that a pentium is good at, it has larger cache than my CPU probably, there won't be a lot of branch prediction misses either
09:33:07 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, well memory bw could explain that. + X here is eating 10 % CPU atm... no clue why
09:33:41 <AnMaster> X kind of has issues when running for a few weeks without restart
09:35:59 <bsmntbombdood> also, comma instead of period for a decimal point is retarded
09:38:09 <AnMaster> a period instead of a comma is equally retarded
09:38:18 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, or do you have any justification?
09:39:03 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, how does something being European make that thing retarded?
09:39:32 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, why do you think Europe is retarded then?
09:40:25 <AnMaster> so you are just trolling then, right.
10:06:35 <AnMaster> I'm trying to fix your mycoedge so I can test if my exact bounds code work
10:07:00 <AnMaster> should it be (14,5) or (14,4) after removing (14,0) ?
10:07:17 <AnMaster> I think y should be 4, but mycoedge thinks it should be 5
10:08:25 <AnMaster> GOOD: y says initial minimal point is (14,0)
10:08:25 <AnMaster> BAD: after removing (14,0) y doesn't say minimal point is (14,5)
10:08:25 <AnMaster> BAD: after removing (14,5) y doesn't say minimal point is (15,5)
10:08:35 <AnMaster> but yes that is off by one for y I think
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11:16:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the slowdown script is broken, It doesn't properly clear around 0,0
11:17:02 <AnMaster> there are still stuff left there
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11:31:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think you clear relative offset incorrectly or something
11:37:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also it causes errors in stack stack testing in mycology
11:37:41 <AnMaster> after manually clearing the static area and waiting for recalcuation of bounds (took a few minutes yeah)
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12:14:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes, mycology also tries to remove any stack stack when it detects it is not correct, thus causing huge bounds again
12:15:18 <AnMaster> at "WARNING: attempted recovery of stack stack, situation may be corrupt"
12:16:24 <AnMaster> so slowdown doesn't work 1) at all, because the clearing code is incorrect 2) for mycology, because mycology restores stack stack a bit before y.
12:19:05 <fizzie> It does work "at all", because it slows down things. It even works better than intended, as it slows down things even for interpreters that shrink bounds.
12:19:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, that is unfixable.
12:19:55 <AnMaster> btw I now have two stratergies, depending on how large the difference is
12:20:02 <AnMaster> if it is small I just try to shrink from the edges
12:20:38 <AnMaster> if it is large I instead iterate over all recorded values in the hash table and store max/min, then iterate over the static space and adjust those max/min if needed
12:21:12 <AnMaster> currently large is defined as: max-min > 0x10000
12:21:33 <AnMaster> will have to tune that probably
12:21:50 <fizzie> You could also select it based on the hash table size, I guess.
12:23:14 <fizzie> Since the hash table iteration time depends on how big it is, you could concievably tune your definition of a "large" difference based on how many entries there are.
12:23:28 <AnMaster> "large model" is way faster when difference is 10 000 000 or so (as in slowdown, after I manually cleared static space), but much worse when the bounds are smaller and I would only need to shrink with a few columns/row
12:24:05 <AnMaster> but first lets get rid of code duplication here.. brb
12:25:24 <Deewiant> 2) I suspected might happen but wasn't sure
12:26:14 <Deewiant> 1) is a bug I guess; which cells aren't cleared?
12:26:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, those of the initial program at least.
12:27:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, unknown, ccbi has a much better debugger, I would suggest trying with it?
12:27:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: Didn't you have a debugger, anyway? :p
12:27:22 <Deewiant> Hmm, wonder what I messed up there
12:27:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, guess: you didn't compensate for the recently created storage offset when clearing?
12:28:08 <AnMaster> something like that sounds quite plausible to me
12:29:58 <Deewiant> No, it looks like I just forgot about an area
12:30:49 <Deewiant> Not sure how or why though, I'll take a look at it at some point, no time now
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12:39:11 <AnMaster> $13 = {32 <repeats 32832 times>, 118, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 118, 32, 60, 46, 46, 47, 46, 46, 47, 116, 114, 117, 110, 107, 47, 109, 121, 99, 111,
12:39:11 <AnMaster> 108, 111, 103, 121, 47, 109, 121, 99, 111, 108, 111, 103, 121, 46, 98, 57, 56, 32 <repeats 469 times>, 380260801, -1325984155, 180, 795, 42, 107,
12:39:11 <AnMaster> 36, 62, 35, 94, 95, 48, 52, 52, 112, 62, 58, 35, 118, 95, 110, 52, 52, 103, 35, 118, 95, 118, 32 <repeats 484 times>, 380260981, -1325983360, 32,
12:39:12 <AnMaster> 32, 118, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 112, 48, 43, 97, 103, 32, 52, 52, 60, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 62, 48, 97, 34, 46, 101, 109, 97, 110, 32, 101,
12:39:15 <AnMaster> 108, 105, 102, 32, 121, 116, 112, 109, 101, 110, 111, 110, 32, 100, 101, 101, 78, 34, 32, 32, 32, 118, 32 <repeats 452 times>, 118, 32, 71, 45, 62,
12:39:18 <AnMaster> 52, 52, 103, 49, 43, 52, 52, 112, 32, 32, 94, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 62, 32 <repeats 490 times>...}
12:39:23 <AnMaster> seems like you forgot quite a bit indeed
12:40:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Did a quick fix, try the one I just uploaded
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13:00:32 <oklopol> AnMaster: comma as decimal point is retarded.
13:00:55 <oklopol> you use comma in them for a different purpose
13:01:28 <oklopol> in finland, the standard notation for tuples becomes (a; b) when either a or b contains a decimal point (comma)
13:01:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, and why should tuples use comma then? Why not make them use dots. Sure it would be a bit unusual, but why not?
13:01:40 <oklopol> a better solution would be to use ; all the time ofc
13:01:48 <AnMaster> after all lisp use . for pairs
13:02:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: clearly just swapping all notation is an automorphism.
13:02:49 <oklopol> but if tuples use comma, it shouldn't be the decimal point
13:03:47 <oklopol> also natural language uses commas in tuples, "x, y and z", but there commas as decimal points aren't really confusing, because numbers are less frequent; still pretty ugly tho
13:04:16 <oklopol> AnMaster: no use googling, i'm using my intuitive view of it
13:04:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, care to explain what you mean then?
13:04:38 <oklopol> if you knew what automorphisms were, you might understand what i meant, or, umm, not.
13:04:55 <oklopol> if you swap all notation, there will be no collisions.
13:05:06 <oklopol> unless you care about syntactical differences.
13:05:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, I just fail at knowing the English terminology
13:05:19 <fizzie> Also they use the same "do ; if the tuple item contains a ," rule: "foo, which means bar; baz, which means quux and zuul, which means zingobongo".
13:05:43 <AnMaster> I googled and I actually ran into it in Swedish, but I didn't know the English word.
13:06:05 <oklopol> lojban doesn't use notation for anything, it uses terms.
13:06:50 <oklopol> and automorphisms are a mathematical concept, a property of a mapping from a system to itself
13:07:05 <fizzie> Korpela lists another typical ;-use in lists of people-names in the "Surname, Given name" format.
13:07:41 <oklopol> you could consider it a handy way to do nested lists or depth 2
13:07:52 <oklopol> oklotalk does that, after all
13:08:10 <oklopol> (in some cases, in most cases not)
13:08:37 <oklopol> err, band training sessions time.
13:08:38 <fizzie> Yes; also you could extend it so that a ", with two dots over" would be the separator for lists of depth three, and so on.
13:09:22 <fizzie> ;Μ if you happen to get combining-characters rendered correctly.
13:09:23 <oklopol> except for some reason i like it when (especially) languages break the 0-1-infinity rule
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14:55:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Hmm, it worked for a small example
14:57:35 <Deewiant> Hmm, I wonder what's wrong, now it clears around 200 lines down for Mycology but not further
15:02:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since cfunge lacks a debugger beyond gdb I'll let you figure it out
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15:03:15 <Deewiant> Alright, looks like it /should/ be clearing down to 249,836
15:03:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however, if I manually clear it from inside gdb then cfunge handles it fine (assuming EXACT_BOUNDS was turned on at compile time). Mycology's stack-stack check breaks however
15:03:28 <lifthrasiir> heh, i never knew that all lines in the unefunge source code should be concatenated into one line.
15:03:29 <Deewiant> Now let's see where it /is/ clearing down to
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15:03:55 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, oh yes they should. For Befunge I recommend handling form feed like that to
15:04:34 <AnMaster> that is, do not advance x, y or z when loading a file and you hit a form feed if you are in befunge mode and are not loading with i set to binary mode
15:04:39 <Deewiant> Argh, it looks like it was just a typo
15:05:29 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that means form feed should be ignored in unefunge and befunge, and newline should be ignored in unefunge, right? it seems the spec is almost clear about that.
15:05:36 <Deewiant> Easier to ask you than to print 1000x1000 areas into my terminal looking for chars ;-)
15:05:46 <AnMaster> $1 = {topLeftCorner = {x = 128, y = -910415652}, bottomRightCorner = {x = 2128881350, y = 967}, entries = 0x1958010, col_count = 0x1958050,
15:05:46 <AnMaster> row_count = 0x1958090, boundsexact = true, boundsvalid = true}
15:05:51 <AnMaster> $2 = {32 <repeats 32832 times>, 118, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 118, 32, 60, 46, 46, 47, 46, 46, 47, 116, 114, 117, 110, 107, 47, 109, 121, 99, 111,
15:05:52 <AnMaster> 108, 111, 103, 121, 47, 109, 121, 99, 111, 108, 111, 103, 121, 46, 98, 57, 56, 32 <repeats 469 times>, 2128881171, -910415647, 180, 795, 42, 107,
15:05:52 <AnMaster> 36, 62, 35, 94, 95, 48, 52, 52, 112, 62, 58, 35, 118, 95, 110, 52, 52, 103, 35, 118, 95, 118, 32 <repeats 484 times>, 2128881351, -910414852, 32,
15:05:52 <AnMaster> 32, 118, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 112, 48, 43, 97, 103, 32, 52, 52, 60, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 62, 48, 97, 34, 46, 101, 109, 97, 110, 32, 101,
15:05:55 <AnMaster> 108, 105, 102, 32, 121, 116, 112, 109, 101, 110, 111, 110, 32, 100, 101, 101, 78, 34, 32, 32, 32, 118, 32 <repeats 452 times>, 118, 32, 225, 251,
15:05:58 <AnMaster> 62, 52, 52, 103, 49, 43, 52, 52, 112, 32, 32, 94, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 62, 32 <repeats 490 times>...}
15:06:24 <Deewiant> Gah, this is getting really slow in CCBI
15:06:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this time it locks up before mycology output at all
15:06:48 <AnMaster> that is when it loads into that specific quadrant
15:06:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Doesn't lock up for me
15:06:57 <Deewiant> Gets up to the wraparound bit in CCBI
15:06:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well depends on where it is loaded
15:07:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, needs to be in y < 0 x > 0
15:07:18 <Deewiant> It /does/ test whether it overlaps with itself
15:07:51 <Deewiant> It could do it incorrectly, of course :-P
15:08:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in fact only positive for both x and y seems to work correctly. No clue why
15:08:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That sounds like a bug in cfunge now
15:08:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with the previous version the first quadrant worked though
15:08:35 <Deewiant> Because it's definitely working for negative ones here
15:08:38 <AnMaster> and I haven't changed cfunge since then
15:09:25 <Deewiant> Positive x, negative y works in CCBI
15:09:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Hm is the offset in { incremental?
15:09:35 <AnMaster> and if yes. does mycology test that?
15:10:31 <AnMaster> what I said there made no sense
15:10:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it properly clear the area around 0,0 for you or not?
15:11:02 <Deewiant> It clears some of it but not all
15:11:41 <Deewiant> Seems to be something else broken than just what I fixed
15:14:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I set the bounds to a bit around the static area... and dumped
15:14:14 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/yivjIS19.html
15:14:29 <AnMaster> that is the bounds were set to be possible to dump
15:14:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does certainly look strange
15:15:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it load mycology more than once?
15:15:37 <AnMaster> seems like one time, close to the core program isn't properly cleared
15:16:03 <Deewiant> Hmm, I asked my debugger for the stack
15:17:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway something is broken with delta there when it locks up too
15:17:36 <AnMaster> $1 = {topLeftCorner = {x = -652966086, y = 128}, bottomRightCorner = {x = 378, y = 230825290}, entries = 0x136a010, col_count = 0x136a050, row_count = 0x136a090,
15:17:36 <AnMaster> boundsexact = true, boundsvalid = true}
15:17:52 <AnMaster> it locked up before reaching mycology yes
15:18:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway original version does reach mycology, but not the last one
15:18:18 <Deewiant> It does clear down to 839 250 :-(
15:18:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The last one reaches it for me every single time.
15:18:49 <Deewiant> This might be broken, but so is cfunge. :-P
15:20:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the last one only reaches mycology when +x,+y, the previous one ("quick fix" some hours ago) broke for -x,+y, the first one worked for all quadrants
15:20:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The last one reaches it for me every single time, regardless of quadrant.
15:21:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I tested with the first one and it works for all those, but the last one doesn't
15:21:30 <AnMaster> 1: fspace = {topLeftCorner = {x = 199, y = 173}, bottomRightCorner = {x = 349208971, y = 1373734736}, entries = 0x298a010, col_count = 0x298a050, row_count = 0x298a090,
15:21:30 <AnMaster> boundsexact = true, boundsvalid = true}
15:21:42 <AnMaster> but still doesn't clear original program
15:22:41 <Deewiant> Hmm, I'm going to pipe this debugger output to a file so I can see what original coordinates the p ones correspond to
15:23:42 <Deewiant> 10 seconds of CPU time to get to the start of Mycology :-P
15:24:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/QtfJPW50.html
15:24:23 <AnMaster> note the dump does NOT start at 0,0 this time
15:24:35 <Deewiant> Yay let's print a 632545 element stack of 10-character integers
15:24:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, I've found that area
15:25:16 <Deewiant> And I'd very much like to know why it's not getting p'd to oblivion
15:25:28 <Deewiant> Since it seems like the stack has all the coordinates it's supposed to...
15:26:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so would I, because I minimise the bounds even when wrapping if bounds are marked as fudgy AND difference is between max and min (for either x or y) is greater than 2^16 (that is power, not any bitwise operator)
15:29:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually efunge should handle this well because it basically does a db search when finding next non-space cell iirc... Somewhat like this (but in erlang ets query syntax, instead of pseudo SQL) when going <: SELECT FROM fungespace WHERE x=pos.x AND y < pos.y AND value <> ' ' LIMIT 1
15:29:36 <AnMaster> (where it gets first non-matching yes
15:29:45 <AnMaster> or maybe that was only in some specific cases
15:30:16 <AnMaster> and I don't remember how I handled flying ips at all
15:32:11 <AnMaster> meh, seems I misremembered totally, since it doesn't implement t at all it just handles this same as z in the mainloop
15:33:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a bug fixed mycoedge would be nice too btw!
15:33:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm now it works for -x,-y too
15:34:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Can you find me the coordinates of any char which isn't cleared
15:34:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in cfunge? not easily without a linear scan no
15:35:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I could find any columns or rows with non-space in though easily
15:35:27 <AnMaster> would just need to tweak a certain routine
15:35:43 <Deewiant> It'll be faster if I look for one in the debugger
15:38:08 <AnMaster> (gdb) print cfun_static_space[(64+71)+(64+254)*512]
15:38:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe it depends on which run?
15:39:21 <Deewiant> Cell ( 71 254 ): value 62 (0x3e), character '>'
15:39:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this is with 8 bit funge cells
15:39:33 <AnMaster> so maybe that makes a difference
15:40:59 <AnMaster> well in cfunge it is always cleared
15:51:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, waiting for it to dump to disk...
15:52:56 <AnMaster> lets see if the pastebin accepts it
15:53:04 <AnMaster> Pasting > 800 kB often tend to fail with rafb. Use --verbose or --debug to see the
15:53:04 <AnMaster> error output from wget if it fails. Alternatively use another pastebin service.
15:53:04 <AnMaster> Pasting > 10000 lines often tend to fail with rafb. Use --verbose or --debug to see the
15:53:04 <AnMaster> error output from wget if it fails. Alternatively use another pastebin service.
15:53:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 114676 lines with the output
15:54:08 <AnMaster> since it is too big for pastebin
15:54:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://omploader.org/vMWhhaA
15:54:44 <AnMaster> there is the dump of all set cells you asked for
15:55:47 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: Can you find me the coordinates of any char which isn't cleared
15:56:00 <AnMaster> I wrote the coded needed to do it now
15:56:05 <Deewiant> I didn't ask for a whole dump, just one char
15:56:07 <Deewiant> 2009-04-04 17:35:34 ( Deewiant) Ah, then forget it
15:56:07 <Deewiant> 2009-04-04 17:35:42 ( Deewiant) It'll be faster if I look for one in the debugger
15:56:16 <Deewiant> 2009-04-04 17:36:04 ( Deewiant) 71 254
15:56:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well it may be useful still
15:56:22 <AnMaster> since that one is cleared here
15:56:26 <Deewiant> Now it looks like I have x and y flipped
15:56:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 71 258 is set though
15:56:51 <Deewiant> I'm wondering what I've got wrong here
15:58:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I even dumped it in pseudo sexp and I don't get any "thanks" :(
15:59:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you even look at it+
15:59:36 <AnMaster> it has separate sections for static array and hash
15:59:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what do you think of the dump format? Nice I assume?
16:00:58 <AnMaster> well hash area is unsorted, but can't do anything about that
16:01:20 <Deewiant> Of course you can, you could sort it :-P
16:01:32 <Deewiant> But anyway, found it and fixed it
16:01:37 <Deewiant> 1000x1000 starting at (0,0) is clear
16:01:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not easily. I'm using an iterator struct thingy found in the hash library I use
16:02:00 <AnMaster> sorting it in C would be a pain
16:02:03 <Deewiant> I'd say making a temp array is easy
16:02:12 <Deewiant> Well alright, maybe not in C :-P
16:02:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, + my funge space file is already over 1100 lines long
16:02:48 <AnMaster> I don't want to add more if I can avoid it
16:02:59 <Deewiant> This is only temporary, you know
16:03:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Uploaded one which seems to work
16:03:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:04:45 <AnMaster> (had to read it, since I saw oerjan join)
16:06:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right it still fails at -x,+y and +x,-y
16:06:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Right and that's cfunge's problem.
16:07:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, -x,-y and +x,+y works correctly until mycology messes up storage offset
16:07:28 <oerjan> also, vampires and werewolves are clearly not so scary after all
16:07:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you fix this mycology bug? ;P
16:07:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: At what point is that, BTW?
16:07:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't you try it in ccbi? :P
16:07:58 <AnMaster> GOOD: } reflects when stack stack has only one stack
16:07:58 <AnMaster> GOOD: u reflects when stack stack has only one stack
16:07:58 <AnMaster> GOOD: u with zero count does nothing
16:07:58 <AnMaster> BAD: u with a negative count reflects
16:07:58 <AnMaster> WARNING: attempted recovery of stack stack, situation may be corrupt
16:07:59 <AnMaster> y claims all of the following:
16:08:11 <Deewiant> Why does u with a negative count reflect
16:08:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it doesn't when located in the normal place
16:08:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't ccbi has a better debugger? ;P
16:08:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: But cfunge is the only one that's buggy
16:09:12 <Deewiant> u should only reflect if there's only one stack on the stack stack...
16:09:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so stack stack isn't "panic corrected" by mycology in ccbi?
16:09:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: And that WARNING is /supposed/ to do exactly that, it tries to force the offset to (0,0) and to remove any extra stacks from the stack stack
16:10:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know, I can try to let this run for an hour if you want to find out :-P
16:10:24 <AnMaster> u reflects if there is only one stack on the stack stack
16:10:32 <AnMaster> no idea why there is only one at that point
16:10:33 <Deewiant> So why is there only one stack on the stack stack
16:11:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't you patch your bounds manually from inside gdb or whatever to make it work?
16:11:30 <AnMaster> as in set bounds=<calculated correct one>
16:11:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well what debugger do you use then?
16:12:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, add a command in the ccbi debugger to hot patch bounds then?
16:12:43 <Deewiant> It's eating up around 950 megs of memory :-)
16:12:55 <Deewiant> Allocating a space cell for each one that it runs into
16:13:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is that on the stack or?
16:13:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you don't remove space cells?
16:13:26 <Deewiant> No, I add them for faster lookup
16:13:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I mean, in hash area setting to space is same as free
16:13:44 <AnMaster> because I can find if a cell is non-existing easily
16:13:59 <AnMaster> if ght_fspace_get returns a null pointer I know it is a sparse space
16:14:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure it is faster by not doing sparse spaces?
16:14:24 <Deewiant> But I try to avoid having to do those checks
16:14:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, it allows me to do unsafeGets when I know I've just done a get
16:14:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but you loose cache locality when you have 950 MB data instead!
16:15:01 <AnMaster> the check overhead would be smaller
16:15:01 <Deewiant> I don't have locality anyway since it's a hash table
16:15:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well true, but parts of the hash table will be in hash
16:15:34 <AnMaster> but less so with all those spaces
16:15:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also did you profile the overhead of get?
16:16:18 <Deewiant> This is from before anybody really cared about speed :-P
16:16:19 <AnMaster> well then I did for my code, and found it was faster doing sparse
16:16:28 <AnMaster> because I had less items in the hash array
16:16:35 <Deewiant> I can't see the difference for Mycology time
16:16:39 <AnMaster> and unsafeget, eww, that breaks the funge space abstraction
16:16:50 <Deewiant> Funge-Space isn't abstracted here, sorry ;-)
16:17:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well in my case it is, much more than stack is
16:17:39 <Deewiant> unsafeGet is just part of the abstraction here ;-P
16:24:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I made cfunge print { u and } when the relevant instruction was run
16:24:19 <AnMaster> here is the result for normal run and a slowdown run:
16:24:23 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/bmJPkK13.html
16:25:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "GOOD: u with a positive count transfers cells correctly" is missing for some reason
16:25:17 <AnMaster> maybe you copied mycology incorrectly? I don't know
16:25:36 <AnMaster> still I suggest testing it in CCBI to see if it works there
16:25:54 <Deewiant> Testing this in CCBI is somewhat hard as you know
16:25:56 <AnMaster> until then I have to write it off as a slowdown bug
16:26:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I recommended doing it by hot patching bounds as I said above
16:27:01 <AnMaster> anyway the load in quadrants where x and y are of different signs is a cfunge bug or a ccbi bug indeed
16:27:19 <AnMaster> hm test with pyfunge maybe... iirc it implements exact bounds
16:27:38 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, there? what is the url to get the most recent pyfunge that works and have exact bounds?
16:27:57 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: that's always available in http://hg.mearie.org/pyfunge/ .
16:28:13 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, ok, I forgot how to use mercurial.
16:28:31 <lifthrasiir> well, hg clone http://hg.mearie.org/pyfunge/ and it will be done.
16:29:51 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, does this do exact bounds when wrapping too or?
16:29:58 <AnMaster> because y isn't run at the point where it is needed
16:30:23 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I mean if that I'm trying to find if the bug is in slowdown.b98 or cfunge.
16:30:56 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, iirc you said you did only calculate the exact bounds for wrapping when program used y
16:31:11 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, oh ok... I need it to be kind of non-slow to be able to test...
16:31:29 <AnMaster> Traceback (most recent call last):
16:31:29 <AnMaster> File "./pyfunge.py", line 295, in <module>
16:31:29 <AnMaster> File "./pyfunge.py", line 213, in main
16:31:31 <AnMaster> TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not callable
16:32:37 <lifthrasiir> (and wait for moment, i'll enable hgweb's zip and tar.gz archive option)
16:33:10 <AnMaster> too slow to do average over 50 runs
16:33:14 <AnMaster> which is what I usually do for cfunge
16:33:40 <fizzie> Ten minutes (for 50 runs) is too slow for you? You're such a speed freak indeed.
16:34:01 <lifthrasiir> if you have psyco it will run faster (2-3x), but still slow
16:34:03 <AnMaster> because 50 runs for cfunge is something like 2-3 seconds
16:34:10 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, does it work on x86_64?
16:35:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, any option to trace program or such?
16:35:50 <lifthrasiir> hmm... it uses pyfunge_stopat environment variable for now
16:36:04 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, somewhat like ./cfunge -t 5 (or higher, 3 5 and 9 are currently used levels for tracing in cfunge)
16:36:32 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I don't know where, it is random, I just want to know when it reaches somewhere far out in x and y
16:36:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how will slowdown.b98 calculate position for bignum funges?
16:37:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is when mycology says " That the number of bytes per cell is -1"
16:37:45 <AnMaster> $ ./pyfunge.py ~/src/cfunge/trunk/tests/asdf.b98
16:37:45 <AnMaster> BAD: y says initial minimal point isn't (14,0)
16:37:45 <AnMaster> BAD: after removing (14,0) y doesn't say minimal point is (14,5)
16:37:45 <AnMaster> BAD: after removing (14,5) y doesn't say minimal point is (15,5)
16:37:50 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, cfunge gets the first one right
16:38:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, the other ones may buggy in the test
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16:38:48 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, basically, do you set bounds to be 0,0 initially or such? if you do it is wrong for this program
16:39:14 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, well ask Deewiant for a copy of mycoedge, the two latter tests are known to be broken, but the first one is correct.
16:39:23 <lifthrasiir> i think not, but i could have a problem with Space.putspace (eg. used for i or o) but not with Space.put
16:41:15 <Deewiant> It'll probably loop forever trying to generate a position in the range (0,0)-(0,0) which doesn't overlap with (0,0)-(70,44) :-P
16:42:00 <fizzie> Sometimes MATLAB's really too silly:
16:42:02 <fizzie> Error: The expression to the left of the equals sign is not a valid target for an assignment.
16:42:35 <Deewiant> Ooh, CCBI's been running for 18 minutes of CPU time and one wraparound is done
16:42:47 <Deewiant> It's at GOOD: 4k # jumps 4 times from k
16:42:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tell me what happens for u and such then
16:43:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Might not be done today
16:43:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a lot of wrap arounds is there?
16:43:14 <Deewiant> I mean, if it's, say, 15 minutes per wraparound this could take hours
16:43:28 <Deewiant> I'm not sure how many before the stack stack tests
16:43:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, why not do as I said then, manually adjust bounds
16:43:37 <Deewiant> But I wouldn't be surprised if there were many
16:43:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That'd involve adding that to the debugger :-P
16:43:54 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: No, since it isn't done
16:44:02 <Deewiant> If you want the broken one, ask AnMaster :-P
16:44:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, you're the one with the command-line paste tools
16:45:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it doesn't work well for spaces though, so I'll ompload it
16:45:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also doesn't arch have packages for those?
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16:45:31 <Deewiant> If it does, I wouldn't know how to use them
16:45:42 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, http://omploader.org/vMWhhcw
16:45:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, simple usually: $ <tool name> <file name>
16:46:10 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, the two latter tests are off by one I think
16:46:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example: $ wgetpaste mycoedge.b98 or $ ompload mycoedge.b98
16:47:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, very simple to use yes :)
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16:48:01 <Deewiant> So maybe it's around 10 minutes per wraparound
16:48:48 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
16:49:14 * oerjan swats FireFly's network -----###
16:50:01 <AnMaster> I just made cfunge print it out
16:50:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is just before y
16:50:43 <lifthrasiir> http://pastie.org/436879 hell, what's going on then?
16:50:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there are wrapping in the {} test code though
16:51:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You can bother to find this out but not what's going on with cfunge there? :-P
16:51:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because that would include trying to follow mycology code flow
16:51:48 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: as i said pyfunge does update rectmin and rectmax (i.e. bounds) only when sysinfo is used, and it should call Space.updaterect but it works correctly!
16:51:51 <AnMaster> INTERCAL is worse yes than that yes, but most other things are not
16:52:14 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, you set initial bound to 0,0?
16:52:36 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: yes, before sysinfo is executed.
16:52:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You could paste a trace of what happens after cell 145,83 (relative to the new offset, of course)
16:52:52 <lifthrasiir> when sysinfo is used it updates (or should update) to correct bounds
16:52:53 <AnMaster> I mark bounds as "not valid" until first non-space have been loaded from initial file
16:54:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm... ok. it is a bit hard, because once cfunge passed into new mycology it is so fast. How would I find out where the new offset it
16:54:21 <lifthrasiir> omg, there was a bug. how did i manage such a bug... :S
16:54:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, give me a fixed place to break on and info where new x,y is stored!
16:54:58 <Deewiant> The third or fourth one is at (-2,0) relative to new offset
16:55:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so the third k I hit?
16:56:05 <Deewiant> The first one that is far away from (0,0) :-P
16:56:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which I don't hit for the "different sign for x,y" case
16:56:54 <Deewiant> CCBI is up to GOOD: } transfers cells correctly
16:57:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 54571405+2+145,1419676713+83 right?
16:57:50 <AnMaster> if those large numbers is the k
17:00:58 <Deewiant> GOOD: u with zero count does nothing
17:02:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://omploader.org/vMWhhdw
17:02:30 <AnMaster> that is from the position you said to y
17:02:49 <Deewiant> Cheers, I'll look at that after CCBI fails/succeeds
17:03:24 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: are you going to add new test (i suppose that's related to boundary of Funge space)?
17:03:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the position in y isn't relative storage offset afaik? right?
17:03:40 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Mycoedge is supposed to be that at some point
17:04:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is the least point as reported by y relative storage offset?
17:04:59 <Deewiant> Depends on whether o's input is :-P
17:05:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if mycology would reach that far when loaded offset it would probably barf on that
17:05:39 <Deewiant> BAD: u with a negative count reflects
17:06:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, So is storage offset relative or not in ccbi?
17:07:11 <Deewiant> Seems to me like it shouldn't be, but I don't remember
17:07:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, So is storage least point relative offset or not in ccbi?*
17:07:17 <Deewiant> I.e. it'd make more sense if it wasn't
17:07:44 <AnMaster> y is not relative here, but o and i are
17:07:48 <Deewiant> Since what y pushes is supposed to work directly as an input to o.
17:08:06 <AnMaster> as in "go make everything relative offset"
17:08:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because mycology never complained about it I probably didn't even remember about that
17:10:19 <Deewiant> Check the spec if it says anything
17:15:05 <AnMaster> "1 vector containing the least point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the origin (env)"
17:15:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends on what origin means
17:16:35 <Deewiant> So hmm, would it make sense for i and o to be absolute then
17:17:28 <lifthrasiir> that's a spec bug, which became a feature now
17:17:29 <Deewiant> Since you get the storage offsets right next to that when you do y anyway
17:17:35 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Yeah, probably :-)
17:17:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Taking notes for -109? ;-P
17:18:49 <AnMaster> but since no one else but Mike Riley *is* interested...
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17:21:05 <fizzie> There's the "These two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction to output the entire program source as a text file." note there too, which sort-of breaks if i/o are relative but y bounds are not; OTOH you can't really have relative y bounds since it explicitly says "relative to the origin".
17:27:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc Deewiant said i and o should be relative some months ago
17:28:23 <AnMaster> hm seems gcc 4.3 has inter-procedural optimising thingy
17:28:27 <fizzie> Yes, it does feel logical to me too that they would be relative; this is just one point that suggests otherwise.
17:32:21 <AnMaster> anyway tracking bounds add around 0.010 wall clock to a normal mycology run (optimised build, no concurrent funge, empty environment, redirecting to /dev/null). With more env and/or concurrency it adds more of course. The overhead is not constant rather it is relative number of writes to funge space (and to a lesser degree also ip wrap check)
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17:36:51 <fizzie> Hmpfh, Octave doesn't seem to do much auto-vectorization, based on the fact that it's using almost exactly 50 % of CPU on this two-core system.
17:37:48 <fizzie> Or maybe it does in some operations, since it has now climbed up to 60 %.
17:38:27 <fizzie> Auto-parallelization, I mean.
17:40:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, for gcc there is an option to do that in 4.3 iirc
17:40:23 <AnMaster> maybe it was added in 4.2 or so, not sure
17:41:15 <fizzie> Well, it is doing *something* sensible, since the CPU usage has climbed up to 69 %.
17:47:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, found why it locks up, because it still fails to clear the static area when funge space is loaded in -x,+y or +x,-y quadrants. Or it locks up before it cleared it.
17:47:16 <AnMaster> anyway it is after the program was loaded
17:47:28 <AnMaster> I think the main program is wrapping
17:47:33 <fizzie> I think I've been misreading those CPU usage numbers, actually; I guess the ps-reported one should climb to >100 for parallelistics, but it's some sort of longer-term average, and that's why it's changing so slowly. Since "top" shows exactly 100 in the "%CPU" column, but something like "48.6%us" in the total CPU usage line.
17:47:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes that it... slowdown itself is wrapping there, before it cleared itself
17:49:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm what the hell happened then...
17:50:09 <Deewiant> Slowdown doesn't wrap at all after loading the file for the second time
17:50:16 <Deewiant> Since otherwise it could run into the other file's code
17:51:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so if I want to make slowdown print something just before that, where would be the safe place to insert it
17:51:54 <AnMaster> and I can't break there easily tnen
17:52:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That code is in the loop which pushes a space 600000 times
17:52:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would putting '1, or on the side of "Begin magic" be safe
17:53:25 <Deewiant> That code isn't very self-modifying, you can mess with it quite freely
17:53:36 <Deewiant> Just make sure everything remains aligned :-P
17:54:24 <AnMaster> meh why does the code before that take so long...
17:55:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think there is some issue with buffered output...
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17:55:56 <AnMaster> when I insert a newline there I get the output I wanted
17:56:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that x is it from the right side?
17:57:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
17:57:06 <AnMaster> I mean x ;JUMP; is where it actually jumps right?
17:57:13 <AnMaster> and that is entered from the right side
17:57:30 * AnMaster adds some debugging code in the blank space there
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18:00:43 <AnMaster> lets see how long a working one takes
18:00:50 <AnMaster> so I can know when to give up with valgrind...
18:01:01 <AnMaster> (this is super-slow under valgrind btw)
18:02:02 <AnMaster> and here comes a broken one...
18:02:14 * AnMaster made i print new bounds at end
18:04:43 <ehird> 08:40 AnMaster: logical flaw there...
18:04:43 <ehird> 08:40 AnMaster: so you are just trolling then, right.
18:04:50 <ehird> AnMaster's deduction engine runs in verbose mode
18:05:54 <Deewiant> ehird: BTW, about me and 22 dB, I assume your allegation was another instance of shit
18:06:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Everything I say is an instance of shit.
18:06:19 <Deewiant> ehird: Alright, I won't respond properly then
18:06:29 <ehird> Deewiant: You're going to put me out of business
18:06:33 <AnMaster> <ehird> Deewiant: Everything I say is an instance of shit. <-- that explains it...
18:06:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Mycology assumes (0,0) storage offset there, yes.
18:06:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The error message is wrong though.
18:07:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah ok. Is this a mycology bug?
18:07:24 <AnMaster> also now I have a case of broken offsets
18:07:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The error message is: I've apparently forgotten to move a ; after inserting some code
18:07:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The offset thing isn't IMO, since I can't assume that y works there so I can't know the correct offsets.
18:08:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The thing that u complains about.
18:08:39 <Deewiant> 2009-04-04 20:06:45 ( Deewiant) AnMaster: The error message is wrong though.
18:08:43 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: The error message is: I've apparently forgotten to move a ; after inserting some code <-- this must mean "BAD: I've apparently forgotten to move a ; after inserting some code"
18:09:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If you want, I could probably make it just print the storage offsets with UNDEF
18:09:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it was a lame joke yes
18:09:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, it is usually bad
18:09:45 <Deewiant> It'd make Mycology a step closer to being slowdown-clean :-)
18:09:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, slowdown is non-conforming anyway
18:10:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because mycology isn't position independent. And I think having relative i and o is completely valid
18:10:37 <AnMaster> and y is defined as relative 0,0
18:10:46 <ehird> http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_&mID=244&language=en β Yum.
18:10:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: How does any of that make slowdown non-conforming
18:11:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because it modifies the interpreter so the program that will run in it won't run in a conforming environment
18:11:29 <Deewiant> Well of course, but the program itself isn't
18:11:39 <Deewiant> It isn't guaranteed to work for all programs: that's obvious
18:11:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, make slowdown mycology clean instead by interpreting instead!
18:12:22 <AnMaster> slowdown should be a befunge98 in befunge98 interpreter, it would store it's interpreter code near the program to avoid the slow wrap thing or something
18:12:29 <ehird> 18:09 AnMaster: Deewiant, slowdown is non-conforming anyway
18:12:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still it would work better
18:13:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also this is odd, the quadrant bug is *not* due to memory corruption
18:13:13 <Deewiant> But it'd be a crapload of work
18:13:32 <AnMaster> at least not detectable by either valgrind or mudflap
18:14:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you provide a trace of ccbi running it in +x,-y or -y,+x that lists each instruction executed in some format?
18:14:22 <AnMaster> I don't have a working D compiler as you know
18:14:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can I just download ldc, compile it against llvm 2.5 and it will work out of box on x86_64?
18:14:59 <AnMaster> because my llvm is pure 64-bit host backend only
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18:16:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, last release or some svn or whatever version
18:16:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You'll need latest hg, hang on
18:16:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Didn't you get pyfunge? :-P
18:17:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't know url for ldc
18:17:50 <Deewiant> LDC's URL is on its home page, of course
18:18:08 <Deewiant> hg clone http://tar.us.to:8000
18:18:41 <Deewiant> LDC's URL is on its home page, of course
18:20:17 <AnMaster> bzr is faster these days, it used to be a bit slow for remote operations on large repos, but since 1.13 it is blazing fast
18:20:36 <Deewiant> The server is slow, not the program
18:20:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, should I get D2 or tango?
18:21:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Read the LDC build instructions, also on the home page.
18:21:14 <AnMaster> Fetch the tango runtime for D1
18:21:14 <AnMaster> svn co http://svn.dsource.org/projects/tango/trunk ldc/tango
18:21:14 <AnMaster> Fetch the druntime for D2 (this is experimental)
18:21:14 <AnMaster> svn co http://svn.dsource.org/projects/druntime/trunk ldc/druntime
18:21:37 <Deewiant> One is experimental, one isn't
18:21:58 <Deewiant> I don't hook into the compiler :-P
18:21:59 <AnMaster> so I shouldn't fetch either then?
18:22:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you needed tango didn't you say?
18:22:14 <Deewiant> Do you know what a language runtime is?
18:22:28 <AnMaster> but iirc you said D2 wasn't compatible
18:22:56 <Deewiant> But as far those runtimes are concerned it really shouldn't matter
18:23:09 <Deewiant> Since it isn't experimental and will work
18:23:15 <Deewiant> The other one may or may not, since it is experimental.
18:23:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but tango vs. phobos *did* matter? "But as far those runtimes are concerned it really shouldn't matter" meh
18:23:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I reiterate: Do you know what a language runtime is?
18:23:53 <Deewiant> So you should also realize that if they are both conforming to the language spec, it makes absolutely no difference which one is used
18:23:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it would be like libc, or libstdc++ or such
18:24:20 <ehird> 18:22 Deewiant: Are you intentionally dense?
18:24:25 <ehird> my thoughts exactly.
18:24:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but then I should be able to use phobos too, yet you needed tango. Or is phobos non-conforming?
18:24:40 <ehird> Deewiant: he doesn't know what a language runtime is.
18:24:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Those are libraries, not part of the language spec, and not language runtimes.
18:24:55 <Deewiant> They both provide a language runtime.
18:25:06 <Deewiant> druntime is only a language runtime.
18:25:12 <Deewiant> Tango is a language runtime + a library.
18:25:17 <Deewiant> Phobos is a language runtime + a library.
18:25:28 <Deewiant> You can use the Phobos library with the Tango runtime.
18:25:46 <Deewiant> You can not use the Tango library with the Phobos runtime because the Phobos runtime is crap.
18:25:58 <Deewiant> You can use both libraries with druntime, at least in theory.
18:26:27 <ehird> One plus two is two.
18:26:29 <ehird> Two plus two is four.
18:26:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm does out of tree builds work for ldc?
18:26:39 <ehird> "One plus two is two."
18:26:54 <ehird> AnMaster: There's no "make install".
18:26:59 <ehird> You have to put it in your PATH.
18:27:06 <ehird> Deewiant: It doesn't work properly
18:27:09 <ehird> I know this because I tried
18:27:15 <Deewiant> Maybe not on OS X, but it worked for me. :-P
18:27:15 <ehird> also, it isn't documented
18:27:22 <ehird> the documented method is to put it in your PATH
18:27:26 <Deewiant> That's probably because it doesn't work properly. ;-)
18:27:38 <AnMaster> I plan to install to ~/local/ldc
18:27:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, don't "install".
18:27:48 <ehird> Just move the build tree there.
18:27:53 <ehird> If you're doing it that way anyway.
18:30:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do I want any of BUILD_BC_LIBS, BUILD_SHARED_LIBS, BUILD_SINGLE_LIB ?
18:30:24 <ehird> are you bsmntbombdood
18:30:28 <AnMaster> BUILD_SINGLE_LIB is on by default
18:33:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You don't have to touch any of the settings.
18:33:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I do need to touch linker flags because otherwise llvm doesn't work, need to add rpath and such
18:33:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Why did you do that? We could have spent half an hour answering 100 questions.
18:34:21 <AnMaster> svn: '/home/arvid/src/llvm/llvm-2.5' is not a working copy
18:34:41 <AnMaster> that's right. The directory doesn't even exist
18:34:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Did the rest of the build fail?
18:34:50 <AnMaster> I don't have the llvm source checkout around any more
18:34:53 <ehird> Also, that's because you specified a path wrong.
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18:35:01 <ehird> that error is expected
18:35:04 <ehird> but it has to exist
18:35:09 <ehird> so you did it wrong.
18:35:21 <AnMaster> ehird, err, I only keep installed llvm around, not the source
18:35:26 <AnMaster> and the source was an out of tree build
18:35:33 <ehird> But the path has to exist.
18:35:39 <ehird> It's checking whether it's an svn version.
18:35:42 <ehird> But the path has to exits.
18:35:46 <ehird> Otherwise it'll break later on.
18:35:50 <ehird> When it tries to use that.
18:35:52 <AnMaster> ehird, that is a bug in the build system clearly
18:36:09 <ehird> "If something went wrong it's obviously *their* fault."
18:36:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I hope it won't write anything in it at least?
18:36:50 <ehird> AnMaster: redo cmake and specify the paths right.
18:37:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes llvm install path exists. it is ~/local/llvm/
18:37:12 <ehird> Deewiant: kill me.
18:37:15 <AnMaster> but the SOURCE PATH FROM WHICH LLVM WAS INSTALLED IS NO LONGER AROUND
18:37:23 <AnMaster> how hard is that to understand
18:37:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Did something go wrong, exactly?
18:37:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no but ehird seems to say that you need the llvm source around, I just asked why "svn: '/home/arvid/src/llvm/llvm-2.5' is not a working copy" happened
18:38:04 <ehird> When I did it it gave that error about my actual llvm directory.
18:38:06 <AnMaster> I don't keep source around for installed programs
18:38:12 <ehird> I infer that it should at least exist.
18:38:17 <Deewiant> It checks whether you have a recent enough version, which includes checking for SVN revision.
18:38:25 <Deewiant> It assumes it's recent enough if it's not SVN.
18:38:41 <AnMaster> well the path in question is not listed in ccmake
18:38:51 <AnMaster> it only mentions /home/arvid/local/llvm there
18:39:24 <Deewiant> Where is that mentioned? LLVM_INSTDIR?
18:39:33 <Deewiant> In my case it's /usr which obviously doesn't contain llvm-2.5
18:39:56 <AnMaster> LLVM_CONFIG:FILEPATH=/home/arvid/local/llvm/bin/llvm-config
18:39:56 <AnMaster> LLVM_INSTDIR:PATH=/home/arvid/local/llvm
18:40:34 <AnMaster> how hard is this to understand
18:41:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Whatever you're doing, do it more so he headdesks more.
18:41:10 <Deewiant> And what are you complaining about, the build is working, right?
18:41:20 <AnMaster> Scanning dependencies of target gen_revs_h
18:41:20 <AnMaster> [ 1%] Generating revisions.h and llvm-version.h
18:41:20 <AnMaster> svn: '/home/arvid/src/llvm/llvm-2.5' is not a working copy
18:41:24 <AnMaster> I was wondering about that yes
18:41:38 <Deewiant> And if it continued on to 2% there isn't a problem?
18:42:08 <AnMaster> [ 3%] Generating dmd/impcnvtab.c
18:42:23 <AnMaster> I hope that means it won't take too long...
18:42:55 <ehird> FUCK! WE HAVE A SKIPPING 2% SITUATION IN THE HOUSE!
18:43:01 <ehird> Oh god get a SWAT team
18:43:13 <ehird> AnMaster: National emergency
18:43:17 <ehird> I declare martial law
18:43:22 <AnMaster> [ 47%] Building CXX object CMakeFiles/ldc.dir/ir/irlandingpad.cpp.o
18:43:22 <AnMaster> Linking CXX executable bin/ldc
18:43:22 <AnMaster> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.2/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: BFD (GNU Binutils) 2.18 assertion fail /var/tmp/portage/sys-devel/binutils-2.18-r3/work/binutils-2.18/bfd/elf64-x86-64.c:2548
18:43:22 <AnMaster> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.2/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: BFD (GNU Binutils) 2.18 assertion fail /var/tmp/portage/sys-devel/binutils-2.18-r3/work/binutils-2.18/bfd/elf64-x86-64.c:2548
18:43:45 <ehird> Tools just get more and more informal
18:44:06 <ehird> "im in ur supposed program, confused about this missin {"
18:44:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is this a known issue with binutils 2.18?
18:44:20 <ehird> "Yo dawg, I herd u liek recursion but you just blew the stack."
18:44:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know, I'm not an LDC developer
18:44:33 <ehird> "I herd u liek segfaults"
18:44:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, then I'd rather track stable in gentoo binutils
18:45:44 <AnMaster> at least there is a binary there
18:46:10 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know what '[100%] Built target ldc' means?
18:46:16 <ehird> you do know that make gives up on errors, right?
18:46:49 <AnMaster> but the word assertion mislead me
18:47:06 <AnMaster> since that usually means it will exit, but I guess this isn't assert()
18:47:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw any small test program in D to check with?
18:47:31 <ehird> AnMaster: I've had worse ld fuckups -- it seems to only sort symbols to so many characters, so if you have long mangled names that are same for a long prefix -- it spits out 'atom sorting error'
18:47:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Did you make runtime?
18:47:35 <ehird> Got a few hundred? Have fun EVERY LINK TIME <3
18:47:49 <AnMaster> object.d: Error: module object cannot read file 'object.d'
18:47:53 <AnMaster> make[3]: *** [runtime/dcrt/bitmanip.o] Error 1
18:47:55 <Deewiant> import tango.io.Stdout; void main() { Stdout("Foo").newline; }
18:48:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Did you download a runtime?
18:48:22 <ehird> "What's a runtime?"
18:48:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I did "svn co http://svn.dsource.org/projects/tango/trunk ldc/tango" yes
18:48:51 <Deewiant> One option at this point is to try and follow the instructions and not do an out-of-tree build
18:49:12 <Deewiant> Yes, following instructions does.
18:49:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you said it worked though
18:49:25 <ehird> Nobody's gonna tell me what to do!
18:49:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It used to; maybe it doesn't any more.
18:49:28 <ehird> Deewiant: you LIED to him
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18:49:35 <ehird> you said it worked. you LIAR! You malicious... lying thing.
18:52:02 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem edgy today ehird.
18:52:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Actually, this is lighthearted.
18:52:25 <ehird> The more lighthearted, the more fun I have poking fun at you.
18:53:12 <Deewiant> "Edgy" would be /ignore and /part and arguing with you; yelling at others is lighthearted
18:53:36 <ehird> Deewiant: I appoint you my public relations officer.
18:53:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no that would be "raging" I think
18:54:04 <ehird> Deewiant: No choice.
18:54:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yeah, I guess the former two at least would be.
18:59:21 <AnMaster> (as in out of tree builds are better)
18:59:47 <oerjan> <ehird> I declare martial law
19:00:16 <oerjan> you must all grow antennas, and drink only 1 liter of water per year
19:00:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do I build ccbi then?
19:00:25 <ehird> I used to never say k
19:04:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well? ldc *.d */*.d or something?
19:04:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ldc won't rm -rf $HOME if you do something wrong
19:05:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Actually it will, I added that a few days ago
19:05:05 <Deewiant> You can try that, I don't know if that works
19:05:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well but it was better asking you
19:05:12 <ehird> It's in pebkac_fix.d
19:05:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you build ccbi?
19:05:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The 'easy' way is to get rebuild; but it doesn't know about LDC and requires a bit of hacking to get to compile.
19:05:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Can you run 32-bit executables?
19:06:04 <Deewiant> I can't, so I had to hack it a bit and build a 64-bit version.
19:07:03 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/tMWfK914.html
19:07:48 <Deewiant> Let's see if I can reproduce that
19:08:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: What Rebuild does is build each file to a .o and then links them
19:08:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Also, Mycology updated, you can see if cfunge gets any further under slowdown.
19:09:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Doesn't happen for me :-/
19:09:42 <Deewiant> Upgrading binutils might help, perhaps :-P
19:09:52 <Deewiant> ehird: iki.fi/deewiant/files/befunge/programs/slowdown.b98 IIRC
19:11:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm llvm is 64 bit only, but otherwise I can run 32 bit binaries yes
19:12:01 <ehird> http://m1.2mdn.net/2233165/300x250-proggit.gif β Best ad ever.
19:12:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So you should just get Rebuild (part of DSSS), like I said.
19:12:31 <Deewiant> ehird: Doesn't look quite 100% to me. :-P
19:12:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so rebuild doesn't need 32-bit ldc?
19:12:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Like I said it isn't aware of LDC.
19:12:47 <ehird> Deewiant: The best part is that it blinks.
19:12:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Like I said to get it to build implies hacking.
19:13:17 <ehird> Deewiant: Don't say dirty words like "binary".
19:13:26 <AnMaster> ehird, that is some javascript code dumped into the page in that image...
19:13:27 <ehird> There are children here.
19:13:31 <ehird> AnMaster: No shit sherlock!
19:13:43 <ehird> Mosaic renders the contents of <script>.
19:13:45 <AnMaster> ehird, so 100% compatible I don't agree with
19:13:59 <ehird> AnMaster: "What is failure to understand sarcasm?", Alex.
19:14:28 <lifthrasiir> i recently thought about two esolangs, one is designed to be harder than malbolge to write code in, one is designed to be graphical and no textual input possible.
19:14:38 <ehird> AnMaster: GregorR made DSSS. It isn't LDC-savvy, as far as I know.
19:14:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, your IRC client doesn't corrupt data.
19:15:00 <ehird> Sure it doise7*!^*~&%^
19:15:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for me all of the first page on google searching for DSSS is related to "direct-sequence spread spectrum"
19:15:07 <ehird> Well I mean mayE*(!^& it dos%@
19:15:08 <lifthrasiir> ...maybe one day i will come with them, but i'm still just planning
19:15:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Consider searching for DSSS rebuild.
19:15:30 <Deewiant> Or you know, anything at all related.
19:15:57 <Deewiant> Better than plain DSSS, though not necessarily by much :-P
19:16:02 <ehird> DSSS child pornography
19:16:10 <ehird> Gives the best results.
19:16:27 <Slereah_> Is your experience that of a child pornographer
19:16:38 <ehird> Slereah_: I prefer "mini pornographist"
19:16:55 <ehird> HEY CLOG DELETE THE PAST FEW LINES OK THANKS
19:17:39 <Slereah_> Silently judging you behind my internet.
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19:25:23 <AnMaster> dsss-0.78-x86-gnuWlinux.tar.bz2
19:26:45 <ehird> it's hacka' slang.
19:26:48 <ehird> get wit the prorgam.
19:27:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Read the LDC instructions for setting it up properly.
19:27:54 <oerjan> so, without the itty bitty
19:27:54 <ehird> Deewiant: I thought we'd been over not using instructions.
19:28:04 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:28:19 <ehird> "instructions? harumph. meh. fiiine."
19:29:08 <oerjan> instructions are so archaic. modern programming languages should use suggestions instead.
19:29:36 <oklopol> yes, you're not the boss of your computer, just a guide
19:29:45 <AnMaster> "ln -s `pwd`/ldc-posix-tango $HOME/.rebuild" <-- in the ccbi build dir, in the ldc bin directory?
19:29:58 <AnMaster> also you said I didn't need shared tango
19:30:03 <AnMaster> but it seems I do with rebuild
19:30:19 <oerjan> STOP THE CPU OPPRESSION
19:30:24 <ehird> AnMaster: you didn't say you were going to use dsss
19:30:26 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Deewiant, do I want any of BUILD_BC_LIBS, BUILD_SHARED_LIBS, BUILD_SINGLE_LIB ? <ehird> no <Deewiant> AnMaster: You don't have to touch any of the settings.
19:30:38 <Deewiant> What are you talking about, shared tango?
19:30:40 <ehird> AnMaster: not my fucking fault then, so shut up
19:30:41 <AnMaster> "Rebuild has some advantages to using a static Tango library (as described above). It compiles and links only to the modules you actually need, and changing the compiler options, for all the modules your application needs, is easy."
19:30:50 <AnMaster> http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc
19:30:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You do realize that DMD wasn't even capable of building shared libraries.
19:31:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then what the hell does that paragraph mean
19:31:05 <Deewiant> Or is, but they don't work, or something. Not sure.
19:31:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It means that instead of linking to the .lib it builds the individual .d you need and links to those .o.
19:31:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Sorry, .a for the first on linux.
19:34:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, trace.d(13): module container cannot read file 'ccbi/container.d'
19:34:48 <AnMaster> something is up with path in ccbi
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19:35:38 <Deewiant> Reading instructions, perhaps?
19:35:48 <Deewiant> I mean, either you haven't read them or something is wrong.
19:35:53 <AnMaster> ~/funges/ccbi-trunk $ ~/local/dsss-0.78-x86-gnuWlinux/bin/rebuild -dc=ldc-posix-tango *.d
19:36:15 <AnMaster> only changelog.txt and license.txt
19:36:18 <Deewiant> You have clearly read neither the CCBI page nor Rebuild's manual
19:36:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: There is my web site.
19:36:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, all other packages I have seen so far on *nix have either an INSTALL README or something like that with building instructions
19:37:03 <ehird> Deewiant: I feel for you.
19:37:05 <AnMaster> that is what linux users expect
19:37:06 <Deewiant> And CCBI, in fact, is not a package!
19:37:24 <ehird> Deewiant: I know a good therapist.
19:38:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: CCBI is distributed from exactly one place, which has building instructions.
19:38:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how is that relevant?
19:38:39 <Deewiant> It means that, if you have CCBI, you have seen the building instructions.
19:38:51 <Deewiant> And hence, there is no need for a README.
19:39:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you have against README or INSTALL?
19:39:09 <Deewiant> When I'll start hosting the repositories publicly I'll add READMEs.
19:39:13 <ehird> hahahaha /me facepalm
19:39:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Nothing, I just never felt the need for one.
19:39:27 <ehird> Deewiant: you have an entitlement to AnMaster, don't you know
19:39:59 <oklopol> Deewiant: that's just not cool man
19:40:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so after a quick look on that page and the ldc page it seems the correct way should be: ~/local/dsss-0.78-x86-gnuWlinux/bin/rebuild -rfccbi.rf -dc=ldc-posix-tango
19:40:09 <oklopol> what use is a program without something to read
19:40:23 <ehird> oklopol: read the program
19:40:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You can also link $HOME/.rebuild/default to ldc-posix-tango so you don't need that -dc= argument
19:40:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah ok thanks for that tip
19:40:42 <oklopol> okay sorry Deewiant i must be high.
19:40:43 <ehird> oklopol: i just revolutionized reading and computing in one.
19:41:07 <oklopol> ehird: yes the world is of very different color now
19:41:08 <AnMaster> $ ~/local/dsss-0.78-x86-gnuWlinux/bin/rebuild -rfccbi.rf
19:41:08 <AnMaster> ccbi.d(20): module instructions cannot read file 'ccbi/instructions.d'
19:41:16 <oklopol> also god i suck at board games
19:41:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Are you in a directory called ccbi?
19:41:32 <Deewiant> That's something I should fix but haven't bothered
19:41:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no ccbi-trunk is the checkout directory, it is my naming scheme here
19:41:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Then make a ccbi directory under that
19:42:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seems a bit odd depending on directory name?
19:42:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So that the .d files would be found under ../ccbi/whatever
19:42:39 <Deewiant> Instead of having to have ccbi/ccbi/*.d I can have ccbi/*.d
19:42:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ln -s . ccbi *seems* to work so far
19:42:52 <ehird> infinity fuck yeah
19:43:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why would you need any part of the directory name to be "ccbi" anyway? Just wondering...
19:43:12 <AnMaster> there is probably some logical reason
19:43:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Because the module names start with ccbi.
19:43:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, link time errors, about undefined reference to ncurses.
19:44:11 <Deewiant> 2009-04-04 21:07:02 ( AnMaster) http://rafb.net/p/tMWfK914.html
19:44:15 <Deewiant> arvid@tux ~/funges/interpreters/ccbi-trunk $ /home/arvid/local/ldc/bin/ldc -output-bc -of=ccbi.bc *.d */*.d */*/*.d
19:44:19 <Deewiant> Remember to link with an ncurses library.
19:44:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I thought rebuild handled that..
19:44:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, after reading on your website didn't mention this
19:45:11 <Deewiant> Is "Remember to link with an ncurses library." somehow ambiguous?
19:45:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well since users who download ccbi source would read there to find out how to build
19:45:22 <ehird> Deewiant: well why did you call it Deewiant's Mega Source of Rebuild Info For Dummies
19:45:27 <AnMaster> so that means everyone will get the build error
19:45:41 <ehird> "Remember to link with an ncurses library."
19:45:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2009-04-04 21:44:11 ( Deewiant) 2009-04-04 21:07:02 ( AnMaster) http://rafb.net/p/tMWfK914.html
19:45:44 <ehird> "Remember to link with an ncurses library."
19:45:45 <ehird> "Remember to link with an ncurses library."
19:45:45 <ehird> "Remember to link with an ncurses library."
19:45:47 <ehird> "Remember to link with an ncurses library."
19:45:49 <ehird> "Remember to link with an ncurses library."
19:45:52 <ehird> "Remember to link with an ncurses library."
19:45:54 <ehird> "Remember to link with an ncurses library."
19:45:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That's /your/ paste.
19:45:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, rebuild *didn't* output it this time?
19:45:55 <ehird> The usual 3 do not quite seem enough.
19:46:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It cached the ncrs.o probably
19:46:17 <Deewiant> And didn't rebuild it, because it's smart that way.
19:46:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, find . -name '*.o' -delete
19:46:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, find . -name '*.bc' -delete
19:47:07 <AnMaster> yeah I guess my find is broken
19:47:18 <Deewiant> Since, if ncrs.d is built, that message is output.
19:47:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have it all in scrollback, not enough link time errors
19:47:47 <Deewiant> And if ncrs.o is linked without a curses library, those link errors will happen.
19:48:05 <Deewiant> Since ncrs.o being linked implies ncrs.d having been built, the message must have been output.
19:50:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it wasn't. Maybe there was a bug somewhere? http://rafb.net/p/IzTmPs26.html
19:50:40 <AnMaster> anyway now I have a ccbi binary finally
19:51:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "Assuming 32-bit chtype... correct ccbi.fingerprints.jvh.ncrs.chtype to ushort if link errors ensue." seems to indicate it was built?
19:51:04 <Deewiant> But as you say, it doesn't matter.
19:51:22 <AnMaster> or maybe that wasn't in ncrs... *shrug*
19:51:30 <AnMaster> and I won't waste more time on this indeed
19:52:11 <Deewiant> Hmm, maybe you're right, those are in the same file.
19:53:21 <AnMaster> -s, --script Begin execution on the second line if the first line
19:53:36 <ehird> Not cool because in a shebang you can only specify one command line argument
19:53:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you actually use that feature?
19:53:41 <ehird> so you can't use --script and /usr/bin/env
19:53:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, but someone requested it.
19:54:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you do it without any justification or?
19:54:23 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:54:34 <Deewiant> I can't remember the justification off the top of my head.
19:55:02 <AnMaster> remember who? Because I wonder who would want to run scripts written in befunge...
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19:56:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm you changed to use a switch like cfunge? last I looked you used an array of function pointers...
19:57:06 <AnMaster> for main dispatch of instructions
19:57:20 <AnMaster> oh well I guess not only I copied then ;P
19:57:40 <Deewiant> I didn't copy anything, that was just when cfunge started being faster than CCBI :-P
19:57:55 <Deewiant> I haven't actually looked at cfunge's source at all, I don't think, apart from snippets you've pastebinned
19:58:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you deny you are violating the GPL3 license used for cfunge?~
19:58:15 <AnMaster> (I wouldn't bother for that small anyway)
19:58:36 <Deewiant> It's not like switch statements are exactly cfunge's property anyway
19:58:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I remember how we discussed this long ago
19:59:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is "ip" some global variable pointing to the current ip or such?
20:00:45 <AnMaster> reallyGoEast <-- lovely function name (yes I see it is some special thing for MODE or such indeed)
20:03:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, your string handling is odd, I can't figure out how it handles the double space thing
20:03:47 <AnMaster> where does it handle b98 spaces?
20:16:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this http://rafb.net/p/e2Spd512.html
20:16:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that was all I needed
20:18:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anything wrong with it
20:18:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wrong format for me :)
20:19:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this is easier though
20:19:31 <ehird> no learn awk or perl
20:19:42 <AnMaster> yeah I would use awk if I had to
20:20:01 <Deewiant> I won't accept a patch for functionality that already exists :-P
20:20:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right, better format though IMO
20:22:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ... stack pushing is slow in ccbi?
20:22:19 <Deewiant> 15 million iterations of space[x, y].
20:22:29 <Deewiant> Well, actually a bit more since there's g and p there.
20:23:00 <AnMaster> ehird, not found here, what does it do?
20:23:06 <Deewiant> And, that's obviously slower with a hashtable than with a static array.
20:23:17 <Deewiant> I haven't profiled it, but I suspect that's by far the main reason.
20:23:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Did you try the new Mycology?
20:23:23 <AnMaster> ah found it in package manager
20:23:32 <ehird> AnMaster: It's grep(1), but it highlights matches, does a recursive search of . if you just do 'ack term', lets you filter by prorgamming language, automatically omits VCS directories, ... http://betterthangrep.com/
20:23:38 <Deewiant> ehird: Doesn't support Haskell.
20:23:49 <ehird> (also, 'ack term' greps stdin if it has an stdin. I guess it checks for terminalosity)
20:23:54 <ehird> Deewiant: you mean no --haskell?
20:24:06 <ehird> it's not like it's some innate mega clever "support"
20:24:11 <ehird> it's just file extension matching, iirc :-P
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20:24:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm waiting for trace dump from ccbi atm...
20:24:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, will try mycology later
20:25:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also I think mycology is correct there about offset 0,0 before. It is what specs says in fact
20:25:58 <Deewiant> That doesn't mean I can't make it more amenable to slowdown.
20:26:09 <AnMaster> oh? you mean by not resetting?
20:26:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw your yes s idea was even slower than my -D when it came to dumping
20:27:13 <Deewiant> 15 million iterations, like I said.
20:27:30 <Deewiant> 30 bytes per line - about right, no?
20:28:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm my ASCII code dump was wrong there...
20:28:28 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
20:29:39 <fizzie> Who cares about speed: (incoming 8-line paste)
20:29:40 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/irclogs/freenode/#esoteric$ egrep -i 'slow|fast|speed|optimi|profil' 200[678]* | grep '] <' | cut -c 37- | sed -e 's/>.*//' | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | head
20:29:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, any idea why the number there is NOT ASCII code?
20:29:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Or it will, but it won't do what you think.
20:30:00 <ehird> fizzie: Note: my lines are mostly ridiculing AnMaster.
20:30:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I copied from the unknown instruction dump thing
20:30:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The 1 there means 'argument number 1'
20:30:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what should I use instead?
20:30:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Obviously you did :-P
20:30:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So it's outputting the x-coordinate there.
20:30:34 <ehird> fizzie: Do one of them to see who ends sentences with ? the most
20:30:40 <ehird> I bet AnMaster or maybe sgeo or smth
20:30:47 <ehird> s/sentences/messages/
20:31:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, do one for repeated lines
20:31:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Me, Deewiant, end list.
20:31:27 <AnMaster> from same person after the other
20:31:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Interestingly, the two people who have to deal with your questions most.
20:32:07 <fizzie> Well, for 2006-2008 absolute number of questions top-3 is:
20:32:13 <AnMaster> ehird, ais also have to deal with it
20:32:26 <ehird> s/have/has/; and he has the patience of... of a mammoth.
20:32:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah, if you never ask you never learn
20:32:47 <fizzie> Although tusho+ehird == 3864 too. Relative number of ?s would be more interesting, but I don't have a script ready for that.
20:33:02 <ehird> Deewiant: 'how many % of msgs are qs'
20:33:08 <AnMaster> and you just made your number go up
20:33:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You'll be careful to not use ? from now on then, I take it?
20:33:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, what exact line did you use there to find the question marks<question mark goes here>
20:33:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or use it in the middle of lines or something, depending on what command fizzie used
20:33:56 <fizzie> "looks like a privmsg" + matches /\? *$/
20:34:11 <fizzie> The " *" there is simply because I self always add a trailing space. :p
20:34:13 <ehird> fizzie: what if you let the spacers go free
20:34:14 <AnMaster> ah right... so in the middle of line is fine
20:34:40 <fizzie> There was a bot configured to "answer" all questions.
20:35:32 <fizzie> Numbers are pretty same even without the trailing-space thing, although one of oklopol's questions disappears. I'm not in the top-ten anyway.
20:35:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm you break the spec, you don't reflect on stdout failing it seems
20:36:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "Although the standard input and output are generally displayed in some sort of interactive user terminal, they needn't be; many operating systems support redirection. In the case of an end-of-file or other file error condition, the & and ~ both act like r. "
20:36:49 <fizzie> I don't always remember the space. But I have 481 questions with /\? *$/ and only 206 with /\?$/.
20:37:32 <AnMaster> ok you don't break the spec, but you are inconsistent
20:38:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, rebuild ignores ^C ....
20:39:12 <ehird> --[no]haskell .hs .lhs
20:39:16 <ehird> β http://betterthangrep.com/
20:40:57 <ehird> Deewiant: --type-set d=.d
20:41:09 <ehird> --type-add befunge=.bf,.b98
20:41:13 <ehird> --type-set befunge=.bf,.b98
20:41:17 <ehird> type-add adds to an existing type
20:41:34 <ehird> also, for one-offs, -G '\.b98$'
20:41:43 <ehird> and yes --type-(set|add) are persistent
20:44:29 <ehird> ack allows you to define your own types in addition to the predefined
20:44:29 <ehird> types. This is done with command line options that are best put into
20:44:31 <ehird> an F<.ackrc> file - then you do not have to define your types over and
20:44:33 <ehird> over again. In the following examples the options will always be shown
20:44:34 <ehird> on one command line so that they can be easily copy & pasted.
20:44:39 <ehird> from the "defining your own types" manual section
20:44:56 <ehird> When defining your own types in the F<.ackrc> file you have to use
20:44:57 <ehird> --type-set=eiffel=.e,.eiffel
20:45:00 <ehird> or writing on separate lines
20:45:06 <ehird> The following does B<NOT> work in the F<.ackrc> file:
20:45:07 <ehird> --type-set eiffel=.e,.eiffel
20:49:16 <ehird> Deewiant: Did you last use it a year ago or sth?
20:49:24 <ehird> I'm getting that vibe
20:49:24 <Deewiant> I haven't looked at it since the release announcement
20:50:04 <ehird> Yeah, everything is massively new. :D
20:50:14 <Deewiant> Or maybe it was a 1.x release which was somehow big
20:50:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is this really correct:
20:50:24 <AnMaster> "Unimplemented instruction '{}' ({1:d}) (0x{1:x}) encountered at ({}, {}).",
20:50:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, it is, you can try it and it'll work.
20:50:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where does i end up?
20:51:08 <Sgeo> I'm not in the top 3 for questions?
20:51:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Also, & and ~ do reflect on stdin failing
20:51:21 <ehird> {} (we're at 0, now at 1)
20:51:27 <ehird> {1:d) (we're at 1, now at 2)
20:51:32 <ehird> {1:x} (we're at 1, now at 2)
20:51:39 <ehird> {} (3 -> we're done)
20:52:29 <fizzie> Sgeo: You have just 726 questions.
20:52:43 <fizzie> Well, more now, of course. But I was counting just 2006-2008 anyway.
20:56:12 <ehird> [ehird:~] % ack -i \bsyn\b
21:15:12 <ehird> `w3m -dump` that is
21:28:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, you said ehird+tusho was number two right<q>
21:28:12 -!- ehird has set topic: topic appoppic http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D aproppotic.
21:28:45 <AnMaster> what about adding in ehird_ ehird` and so on fizzie~question~
21:28:48 <fizzie> Those unterminated q tags are upsetting my sense of balance.
21:28:57 <ehird> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
21:28:59 <ehird> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
21:29:04 <ehird> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
21:29:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wasn't using HTML anyway.
21:29:09 <ehird> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
21:29:13 <ehird> ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
21:29:17 <ehird> Oh wait, it's per-line.
21:29:37 <fizzie> It still looks somehow unbalanced. Anyway, I don't think the nick-variants affect things that much.
21:31:00 <AnMaster> I think that is the correct syntax.(insert a question mark here, also I'm trying to make too many variants to make it easy to special case that when grepping)
21:31:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You'll lead the stats for years to come anyway; why bother?
21:32:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, really, you will. :-P
21:32:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, better start early IMO.
21:32:53 <oklopol> fizzie: my questions don't always have a question mark.
21:33:42 <fizzie> oklopol: I'm not writing a regexp to recognize things that semantically speaking are questions, if that's what you mean.
21:33:47 <oklopol> yes but i do it mucho mucho.
21:34:29 <oklopol> maybe everyone else does it mucho mucho too
21:37:45 <AnMaster> and if I miss it, I correct it by adding on the next line
21:37:53 <AnMaster> so I guess that means I'm over-represented
21:38:04 * ehird downloads wikipedia, lynx -dumps it all, and cats it all into one file called tome.txt
21:38:27 <AnMaster> ehird, doing it with xml dump or?
21:38:33 <ehird> AnMaster: static html dump
21:38:42 <ehird> w/ a perl script to filter out the common glump
21:38:57 <ehird> http://static.wikipedia.org/new/wikipedia/en/articles/m/a/i/Talk%7EMain_Page_649b.html scroll to the bottom and gawp
21:39:20 <ehird> wikipedia-en-html.ta..>21-Jun-2008 16:44 14G
21:39:31 <ehird> can I plz just have the text only :||||||||
21:39:37 <AnMaster> they provide that too<ascii code 63>
21:39:50 <ehird> but not pre-rendered
21:39:53 <Deewiant> ehird: I wouldn't be surprised if that took more space :-P
21:40:07 <ehird> Yar, I just want HTML without all the imags
21:40:22 <ehird> The current dump is the June 2008 edition. This dump has no image snapshot, it's just HTML. Due to performance problems when compressing millions of files with 7-zip, the archives are now packaged as a 7-zipped tar file.
21:40:29 <ehird> I thought it was just lik
21:40:50 <AnMaster> I never seen that "based on work" thing before
21:40:56 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the static version
21:41:02 <ehird> gfdl legally requires it
21:41:09 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the static version
21:41:14 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:41:19 <ehird> and note the lack of history/edit/etc
21:41:45 <fizzie> The XML-based "current revisions, all pages" dump I used for fungot (since they didn't provide talk pages separately) was something like nine gigabytes. I think. I threw it out already.
21:41:46 <fungot> fizzie: do you have to write a text-based braincopter/ brainloller first, then
21:41:57 <ehird> Oh well, I have gbs
21:42:25 <ehird> This makes me !happy.
21:43:02 <fizzie> You people are all so impatient; AnMaster wants all programs to execute in less than a second, and you're complaining about a rather reasonable 13-hour download.
21:43:15 <ehird> 2009-03-13 01:27:21 done Articles, templates, image descriptions, and primary meta-pages.
21:43:15 <ehird> 2009-03-13 01:27:20: enwiki 8251357 pages (61.202/sec), 8251357 revs (61.202/sec), 59.5% prefetched, ETA 2009-03-15 15:29:29 [max 21919559]
21:43:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be a RISC OS binary called happy I think...<question>
21:43:17 <ehird> This contains current versions of article content, and is the archive most mirror sites will probably want.
21:43:20 <ehird> pages-articles.xml.bz2 4.6 GB
21:43:27 <ehird> 4.6gb seems quite acceptable.
21:43:34 <ehird> I can render it locally.
21:43:45 <fizzie> I would've gotten pages-articles, too, but it didn't have talk pages.
21:44:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 431 MB output log...
21:45:04 <AnMaster> funny when less says: Calculating line numbers... (interrupt to abort)
21:45:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, was that a question $QUESTIONMARK
21:46:13 <fizzie> "pages-meta-current.xml.bz2 8.6 GB". There seems to be approximately even split between article-content and user-content/discussion.
21:46:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, didn't you forget something at the end (ascii code 63)
21:46:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, the question mark was earlier, the question came later.
21:47:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then you should use the relevant unicode symbol
21:47:25 <Deewiant> You're just travelling in the wrong direction in time.
21:47:48 <ehird> Deewiant: reminds me of mostly harmless's Guide
21:48:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you read what the next line *directed at you* after this one will be then<question> If so what will it be#ascii code 63#
21:48:22 <ehird> "How many of me are there?"
21:49:14 -!- psygnisf_ has joined.
21:49:15 <AnMaster> ΒΏI don't talk spanish<64-1 in ASCII>
21:49:16 <ehird> Watch me travel the other way in time.
21:49:38 <ehird> AnMaster, you now must ask a question to avoid breaking temporal reality.
21:49:47 <ehird> 21:49 Tuscane: ehird, there's a perl script called wikiprep, my mistake, not xslt.... 46 hours for a full dump to run
21:49:50 <ehird> 46 hours to render wp.
21:50:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Wrong question.
21:50:30 <ehird> The question I answer is much further in the future.
21:50:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but it was worth it this time
21:50:56 <Deewiant> Oh, only important questions get a question mark from now on? :-P
21:51:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, possibly. I'm not sure yet
21:51:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: That smiley-appending trick is also quite clever.
21:51:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could filter around that too.
21:51:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: Why not just grep for plain \?
21:51:51 <fizzie> Someone said "lines ending in ?" originally. No real reason, though.
21:52:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, and combine ehird and tusho please
21:52:19 <fizzie> fungot: How often do you ask questions here?
21:52:19 <fungot> fizzie: ran as fast as, say, staying here
21:52:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
21:52:35 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
21:52:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, never seen a question mark from it
21:52:43 <ehird> fungot: You should be questiony now, despite not having ? in your grammar.
21:52:44 <fungot> ehird: taking fnord fnord fnord
21:52:45 <fungot> AnMaster: " oh, thank you!"
21:52:51 <fungot> Deewiant: 14. all unwarlike nations are uncivilised. and as to being in a fright. " oh," said the duck.
21:52:58 <fungot> AnMaster: there comes a happy pause, for human passion madly yearning! o weary air of dumb despair, from marble won, to marble turning! " leave us not thus!" we can but stand aside, and let us suppose all the new ones to be put before men who do know what fnord is, if i could only just see the forms of the children, " come, there's no place for ignorance in these times! and all fnord agree that the time to learn is when you're
21:52:59 <Deewiant> fungot: Not being cooperative today, I see
21:53:00 <fungot> Deewiant: " it is just as i feared!" and we all went out into the snow! and you'd have fnord it, as if it really wasn't worth noticing. but, when he dipped it they fnord a little farther off, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe; all mimsy were the borogoves, and the fall was over.
21:53:07 <ehird> "oh," said the duck.
21:53:16 <Deewiant> fungot: Tell me about the duck
21:53:16 <fungot> Deewiant: " lions don't fnord," she added, as an actual fact"--which does not at all imply that no x can be y") the two terms, which contain these contradictory attributes, may be called ' the premisses', the square would be ' occupied'.
21:53:22 <fizzie> It should have a ? token in there, though.
21:53:22 <fungot> Deewiant: the following is a little harder, perhaps: he heard once more the baron looked fnord to the smaller, that there are no gentiles in the garden.
21:53:27 <fungot> AnMaster: the professor referred to a card he held in his hand, fnord silence said, " that that's his line. military genius, indeed! i'll vex her finely, though!"
21:53:31 <fungot> Deewiant: the gloomy look returned to arthur's face: and i could not at the moment, that was miles away from the door.
21:53:36 <fungot> Deewiant: " hurted mine self welly much!" i said, " but i know that, because i've held up one of the fnord clearly depends on his fnord face, as he fnord over the fnord, the fnord, full of tricks and fun.
21:53:47 <fungot> ehird: we all granted that. well, let's see how it would look: this led to a fnord, sometimes." make up your mind. now, only fnord you believe fnord put some of it in!"
21:54:38 <fizzie> I don't remember how to parse that language model format, so I can't really check if the question mark token is used in any of them.
21:54:47 -!- AnMaster has changed nick to AnMaster_ipv6.
21:54:54 <ehird> fungot: don't green
21:54:55 <fungot> ehird: " yea, each to each was worse than foe: thou, a scared fnord, fnord away almost like snow, as they got it in a newspaper." " all new cakes are nice.
21:55:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> ipv4 to freenode, because that is much more stable
21:55:13 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: in a day or two I will have fucking NATIVE STATIC IPV6 fuck yeah
21:55:25 <ehird> AND I WILL SUBVERT YOUR SHITTY REGIME OF... FAKITUDE!
21:55:29 <ehird> Of course I have to lose my bouncer
21:55:38 <ehird> But 'tis a small price to pay for ipv6 ego-masturbation
21:55:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: Do you know if any Finnish ISP offers IPv6?
21:55:44 <ehird> Deewiant: Nova or sth
21:55:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Nebula. As I've said many times.
21:56:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: Well sorry, I haven't asked you. :-P
21:56:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway this should spread out the question marks over some nicks
21:56:19 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Parent. And I'm not sure, sometimes these things just come together. :P
21:56:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: No, I mean, it's been the topic on the channel several times. You should be logreading.
21:56:31 <ehird> everyone should logread
21:56:52 <Deewiant> Nebula is too expensive for my blood
21:56:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Anyway, they give you this static /64 block, and are also polite enough to point the reverse-DNS zone NS delegation to any name server(s) I happened to want.
21:57:32 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, it's a bit more expensive than the mean, and the v6 and static-IP stuff is also only in the "advanced" product, not the cheaper "basic" one.
21:57:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
21:57:33 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:57:33 <Deewiant> I don't need a static address. I'd just like IPv6 support.
21:57:50 <ehird> Move to the UK and get bogons.
21:57:56 <ehird> They give you static IPV6 for free. :|
21:58:13 <ehird> How expensive is nebula, fizzie?
21:58:19 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.nebula.fi/nebulazone.php
21:58:28 <ehird> I don't read moonlanguage
21:58:43 <Deewiant> ehird: You can read '24M/1M ADSL 59.90β¬' right?
21:58:45 <fizzie> You probably can interpret the table on the right side.
21:59:15 <ehird> well, Β£45/mo if you want 800kbps upload (as opposed to 400 or so)
21:59:40 <fizzie> This is 1Mbps up by default.
21:59:42 <Deewiant> Guess I'll just wait for the major ISPs to jump on the IPv6 bandwagon.
21:59:47 <fizzie> More expensive for the 3M variant.
21:59:54 <ehird> fizzie: Well, yeah, also 24M down.
22:00:09 <ehird> This area doesn't have ADSL2+ so we don't get the fancy 24M speeds.
22:00:15 <ehird> And the only adsl2+ isp is Be, iirc
22:00:28 <fizzie> The 8M/1M is 50 eur/month, and 4M/1M is 40 eur. I'm not sure what that is in your fancy money.
22:00:51 <ehird> 40 dirty european money = 36 proper british money
22:00:57 <ehird> They're, uh, pretty similar.
22:01:18 <ehird> "1 Euro = 0.909931183 British pounds"
22:01:26 <ehird> The 1 penny makes all the difference
22:01:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: It was some sort of multiple-connections-load-balancing thing, I think.
22:02:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, it's just ADSL2+ port bonding to get higher speeds.
22:02:13 <ehird> Bogons don't even give you a router or anything.
22:02:41 <Deewiant> What speed is their VDSL2, I wonder?
22:02:45 <fizzie> "ADSL2+ port bonding is also known as G.998.x or G.Bond" β http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADSL2+
22:02:59 <ehird> SHUT UP ABOUT ADSL2+ YOU'RE MAKING ME WANT TO MOVE TO .Fi
22:03:51 <Deewiant> ehird: EuroDOCSIS 3.0 for the win.
22:03:58 <fizzie> Obviously I don't actually get 24Mbps here.
22:04:01 <fizzie> styx> wan adsl chandata
22:04:01 <fizzie> DSL standard: ADSL2+ Mode
22:04:01 <fizzie> near-end bit rate: 19235 kbps
22:04:01 <fizzie> far-end bit rate: 1020 kbps
22:04:02 <Deewiant> 110M/5M for around 45-50 euros.
22:04:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh my god.
22:04:12 <Deewiant> Crippled upload but it's still sweet.
22:04:27 <ehird> What I mean to say is, I want that.
22:04:49 <fizzie> Deewiant: Isn't it still a bit shared between people, though? At least the earlier cable-modem stuff used to be.
22:05:03 <ehird> 13mb/sec... damn that's hot.
22:05:04 <Deewiant> It's not marketed that way, anyway.
22:05:08 <ehird> That's like *hot hot hot*
22:05:37 <fizzie> I think Sonera and Elisa are also offering 100M/10M stuff in some very randomly selected locations.
22:05:44 <fizzie> Basically places they've bothered to dig fiber to.
22:05:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, you said those ISK added up, well, not really I'm at 211 ISK...
22:06:20 <ehird> fizzie: do many .fi isps do traffic shaping bullshit?
22:06:24 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive_.
22:06:28 <Deewiant> ehird: Not any that I know of.
22:06:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: Quite many do some sort of port-filtering, though. At least on SMTP ports, anyway. Not that it usually matters much.
22:07:03 <Deewiant> Some ISPs have opted in to the police's stupid blocklist but that's about all they do, I think.
22:07:12 <ehird> Deewiant: Heard of Phorm?
22:07:18 <ehird> .uk isps have no respect for... well, anyone.
22:07:32 <ehird> The company drew attention when it announced it was in talks with several United Kingdom ISPs to deliver targeted advertising based on user browsing habits by using deep packet inspection.[3] It is one of several companies developing behavioral targeting advertising systems, seeking deals with ISPs to enable them to analyse customers' websurfing habits in order to deliver targeted advertising to them. Others include NebuAd and Front Porch.[4]
22:07:41 <ehird> They convinced virgin media and other major isps to deploy it
22:07:51 <ehird> Phorm is working with major US[5] and British ISPs including British Telecom, Virgin Media, and TalkTalk on a targeted advertisement service to monitor browsing habits and serve relevant advertisements to the end user. Phorm say these deals will give them access to the surfing habits of 70% of British households with broadband.[1]
22:08:03 <ehird> Hope they choke on a dick
22:08:15 <ehird> one of the owners of bogons posted on a mailing list about how they suck :-D
22:08:41 <fizzie> A *very* large percentage of Finnish ISPs state in their service agreement things something like "you are not allowed to have any sort of servers connected to your pipe", but I haven't heard of anyone actually enforcing that rule.
22:09:13 <Deewiant> And if they did, I think people would start complaining quite loudly.
22:09:20 <Deewiant> Not that they'd probably care.
22:09:48 <ehird> The bogons AUP is, uh, "if you do illegal things we can shut your service off and we can shut your service off regardless too"
22:09:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, so do my ISP, and I recorded some port scans on 25, 80 and 8080
22:09:51 <ehird> http://www.bogons.net/aup.shtml
22:10:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> from an IP in the same range as the DNS servers of my ISP
22:10:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, and Elisa's formulation of that prohibition was really really bizarre.
22:10:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Ellei Elisan kanssa ole nimenomaan muuta sovittu, asiakas ei saa pitÀÀ laajakaistaliittymÀssÀ palvelimia tai kÀyttÀÀ verkkopalvelua palvelujen tarjoamiseen laajakaista- tai internet-palvelujen kÀyttÀjille sijoittamalla palvelinlaitteita tai -sovelluksia tietoliikenneyhteyteen."
22:10:52 <ehird> tietoliikenneyhteyteen
22:10:59 <ehird> laajakaistaliittymΓ€ssΓ€
22:11:03 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Finnish ISP. Well, a phone company. Something like that.
22:11:10 <Deewiant> ehird: Those aren't very long words. :-P
22:11:18 <ehird> Deewiant: show me a long word i love long words
22:11:22 <Deewiant> Longer than average but not very long IMHO.
22:11:40 <Deewiant> ehird: I think they're bad for your health.
22:12:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, What about Swedish then... technically industriarbeterarfackΓ₯rstΓ€mmepenna would be a valid word
22:12:31 <ehird> 'industry are better are fuckers stamina pen'?
22:12:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: If things like that were parsed literally that'd mean nothing in terms of the law. Too bad they're not.
22:12:45 <ehird> Deewiant: translate?
22:12:47 <Deewiant> I mean, 'sijoittamalla .. tietoliikenneyhteyteen'? What?
22:12:49 <fizzie> Anyway, the text doesn't partially even make sense. "kÀyttÀÀ verkkopalvelua palvelujen tarjoamiseen laajakaista- tai internet-palvelujen kÀyttÀjille sijoittamalla palvelinlaitteita tai -sovelluksia tietoliikenneyhteyteen" equals approximately "to use the network service to provide services for broadband- or internet-service users by placing server equipment or software into the data communication link".
22:13:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, "(((industry worker (workers union)) yearly meeting) pen)
22:14:11 <fizzie> Wikipedia has for Swedish: "nordΓΆstersjΓΆkustartilleriflygspaningssimulatoranlΓ€ggningsmateriel-underhΓ₯llsuppfΓΆlningssystemdiskussionsinlΓ€ggsfΓΆrberedelse-arbeten"
22:14:13 <Deewiant> ehird: You can probably google for 'finnish long words' and come up with some.
22:14:27 <ehird> TRANSLATE FUCKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:14:52 <fizzie> And for Finnish, "kumarreksituteskenteleentuvaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisenneskenteluttelemattomammuuksissansakkaankopahan" which is not a compound word, just suitable suffixes. It's not really parseable.
22:15:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, translate all the Finnish in the last few screens.
22:15:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: What page does Wikipedia have that on?
22:15:18 <ehird> Finnish: lojban for finns
22:15:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Everything has been translated.
22:15:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, "<Deewiant> I mean, 'sijoittamalla .. tietoliikenneyhteyteen'? What?" <-- that too<q>
22:15:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: It's a quote from fizzie's translation.
22:15:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't know, since it was on a Finnish forum under a "found in Wikipedia" label. Might not even be there any more.
22:16:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> <fizzie> And for Finnish, "kumarreksituteskenteleentuvaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisenneskenteluttelemattomammuuksissansakkaankopahan" which is not a compound word, just suitable suffixes. It's not really parseable.
22:16:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: "Not really parseable."
22:16:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Means nothing, it's crap.
22:16:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> <fizzie> Wikipedia has for Swedish: "nordΓΆstersjΓΆkustartilleriflygspaningssimulatoranlΓ€ggningsmateriel-underhΓ₯llsuppfΓΆlningssystemdiskussionsinlΓ€ggsfΓΆrberedelse-arbeten"
22:16:39 <Deewiant> Yes, I can parse that as well, to a reasonable degree of accuracy.
22:17:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> what is nordΓΆstersjΓΆn in English though... What is it in Swedish<q>
22:17:08 <ehird> antidisestablishmentarianism
22:17:11 <fizzie> Compound words are easier. There are "reasonable" extremely long Finnish compound words, too. But the suffix-adding only goes so far.
22:17:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: You should know, right? :-P
22:17:33 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:17:37 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: North Baltic Sea
22:18:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Googling suggests it's only used in that word.
22:18:33 <Deewiant> 'Men "NordΓΆstersjΓΆ" kan ju inte vara ett anvΓ€nt ord - norra ΓΆstersjΓΆn i all Γ€ra.'
22:18:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, so do you want "nordΓΆstersjΓΆkustartilleriflygspaningssimulatoranlΓ€ggningsmateriel-underhΓ₯llsuppfΓΆlningssystemdiskussionsinlΓ€ggsfΓΆrberedelse-arbeten" translated or not <ascii 62+1>
22:18:53 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, and I hope it ends with a question mark.
22:19:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Words don't usually end in punctuation.
22:19:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: coast artillery
22:21:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> north eastern sea coast artillery aircraft surveillance simulator <anlΓ€ggning> material - maintenance follow-up[not sure about that] system discussion <inlΓ€gg> preparation - work
22:21:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> and I'm not sure what the best word for those two non-translated words are
22:21:43 <Deewiant> 'anlΓ€ggning' is something like 'structure', right?
22:21:55 <fizzie> The Wikipedia "Compound (lingustics)" page has a Finnish example, "lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottoriapumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas". I would translate, but I'm not quite sure of the army-related terminology.
22:21:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> BeholdMyGlory, that would fit in this case probably yeah
22:21:59 <Deewiant> Facility might be better, not sure.
22:22:29 <Deewiant> fizzie: Aeroplane jet turbine engine assistant mechanic non-commanding officer student
22:23:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> BeholdMyGlory, the Swedish or the Finnish one<ascii 3*3*7>
22:24:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> if you can't think in RPN then you should, uh... learn it or something...
22:25:06 <Deewiant> Of course I can, I wrote Mycology.
22:25:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, in fact wouldn't you say it would be a good idea for everyone to know both RPN and prefix notation(/ (* 3 3 7 2) 2)
22:25:53 <fizzie> I can believe that the Finnish one might be used once or twice, if there actually happens to be such a post in the army. "lentokonesuihkuturbiinimoottori" sounds reasonable, and "apumekaanikkoaliupseerioppilas" too (for a did-not-go-to-army-person), but I'm not sure they have that sort of specialization.
22:26:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: No(+ 23 33 10 -)
22:26:20 <fizzie> Another wp quote. "The Finnish word saippuakivikauppias (soap-stone vendor) is claimed to be the world's longest palindromic word in everyday use. A meaningful derivative from it is saippuakalasalakauppias (soapfish bootlegger). An even longer effort is saippuakuppinippukauppias (soapdish batch seller)."
22:26:32 <ehird> soapfish bootlegger
22:26:45 <fizzie> Yes, I speak of soap-stone vendors every day.
22:27:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: It's a mixture, and ambiguous.
22:27:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I didn't suggest you would mix them duh!
22:27:50 <Deewiant> I wasn't insinuating you were.
22:28:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> also I'm running out of original ways to write question mark in...
22:28:50 <Deewiant> Consider using the traditional instead.
22:29:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> ah, interobang should relieve some of the question mark pressure I thinkβ½
22:29:17 <fizzie> Consider using the interrobang all the time, it would make you sound suitably high-strung.
22:29:23 <fizzie> Gah. You idea-stealer.
22:29:26 <ehird> β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½
22:29:33 <ehird> β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½
22:29:44 <Deewiant> It implies you're yelling all the time, which sucks.
22:30:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> FireFly, what does high-strung mean. It doesn't sound nice, or does itβ½
22:30:16 <fizzie> 1. edgy, high-strung, highly strung, jittery, jumpy, nervy, overstrung, restive, uptight -- (being in a tense state
22:30:19 <Deewiant> Is there something fundamentally difficult about tab completion?
22:30:26 <ehird> β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½
22:30:29 <ehird> β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½
22:30:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, I certainly am now that you done those stats
22:30:50 <fizzie> General punctuation page also has the question-mark-combinations: β, β and β. They have similar shoutery implications mostly.
22:31:05 <ehird> is there an upside down β½
22:31:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, still waiting for results about question mark anywhere in line where ehird and tusho were combined
22:31:20 <ehird> fizzie: make a list of the top unicoders
22:31:25 <ehird> (= everything outside of printable ascii)
22:32:07 <ehird> ββββββββββ₯ββ§ΒΉΒ²Β³β΄β΅βΆβ·βΈβΉβ°βΊβΉβ½
22:32:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Still waiting for results of cfunge on the latest Mycology, tell me when you've done that
22:32:39 <oklopol> saippuakuppinippukauppias xD
22:32:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> please, can we get an audio recording of saippuakuppinippukauppias
22:33:38 <ehird> just record half then reverse
22:33:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Alternatively, still waiting for an updated cfunge in the public repo so I can run it myself.
22:33:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: ITYM ΒΏpΙΉ!Ι₯Ι -- There *is* a real inverted i somewhere, but I can't find it right now.
22:34:05 <Deewiant> fizzie: Nah, I didn't actually mean that, although I considered it.
22:34:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, will be in the feature branch on launchpad
22:34:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Not rage.kuonet.org?
22:35:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: So how do I get to it, I'm bzr-ignorant
22:35:25 <ehird> http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147959
22:35:53 <Deewiant> ehird: 'more Linux since added plus one Solaris and 2 BSD'
22:36:32 <fizzie> Question marks anywhere:
22:36:46 <fizzie> The ehird there has had tusho added into it.
22:37:03 <fizzie> I don't have a microphone handy.
22:37:11 <oklopol> i have a broken microphone handy
22:37:12 <Deewiant> I don't have a microphone at all.
22:37:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, seems like lp have connection issues atm
22:38:02 <fizzie> I have a headphones/microphone headset thing at work, but people might look if I start repeating "saippuakuppinippukauppias" there to myself.
22:38:03 <Deewiant> oklopol: The times I might use it are mostly like these; and with my parents sleeping in the next room, I wouldn't use it anyway.
22:38:31 <fizzie> "I'm training our recognizer to recognize palindromes better."
22:38:37 <Deewiant> Hmm, actually my phone can probably record audio, so I could use that.
22:38:56 <Deewiant> fizzie: Or "I'm taking a 3-minute break off work"? :-P
22:39:00 <oklopol> Deewiant: well i just wanted to use the word a third time, but yes understandable.
22:40:11 <oklopol> saippuakuristajat, sirukauppias
22:40:45 <oklopol> yes, but it was a pretty palindrome, and i didn't want to erase it.
22:40:46 <fizzie> Saippuakiinnostunut sonni-iKauppias.
22:40:46 <Deewiant> If you're coming up with these in real time, props though
22:41:01 <oklopol> Deewiant: well yes naturally
22:41:11 <Deewiant> fizzie: First word fails at wordness.
22:41:13 <oklopol> well, umm, saippuakullipillukauppias
22:41:32 <oklopol> my randomizer is a bit childish.
22:41:34 <Deewiant> saippuakupanapukauppias in the same vein.
22:41:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge/cfunge-speedup
22:41:51 <Deewiant> Although I guess that fails a bit at wordness too, with the genitive and all.
22:41:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: You mean "saippuakiinnostunut"? It's obviously anyone who's interested in soap.
22:42:02 <Deewiant> fizzie: "saippuasta" or no cigar?
22:42:09 <oklopol> saippuakaverirevakauppias :D
22:42:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's just a variant. :p
22:42:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Can I do that in the existing repo?
22:42:24 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, well, I'm thinking that it's the only correct one. :-P
22:42:33 <oklopol> i guess palindromes are a bit trivial in languages you know natively
22:42:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I mean, I have that rage.kuonet.org branch.
22:42:44 <oklopol> so maybe i'll just stop, i could probably spam them all night
22:43:34 <oklopol> (saippuakinolemumelonikauppias)
22:43:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> you create a shared repo instead and create branches under that
22:43:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Okay, so it's completely separate.
22:44:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: So how do I go about that locally?
22:44:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> but bzr don't do the confusing thing that git does where you switch between branches
22:44:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: Saippuakisaan aasikauppias. I just *had* to generate at least one you accept as wordy enough. I hope you don't have anything against the soap competition.
22:44:29 <Deewiant> fizzie: Nah, that's fine, if a bit strange. :-P
22:44:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, create a directory cfunge, go into it, bzr init-repo .
22:44:42 <oklopol> saippuakisa-aasikauppias would be a compound
22:44:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge/trunk
22:44:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge/cfunge-speedup
22:45:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> so you would have to switch over your trunk branch
22:45:28 <fizzie> oklopol: I'm not sure there's really a market for donkeys competing in the soap competition.
22:45:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway now I'm trying to find out why loggerhead crashed
22:46:50 <oklopol> fizzie: horses can be made soap out of, according to some sources, maybe soap competition is an euphemism for that
22:46:57 <oklopol> and donkeys are close enough to horses
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22:47:22 <fizzie> oklopol: Isn't it glue they make out of horses? Well, maybe soap too, then.
22:47:54 <oklopol> those are a pair in my head
22:48:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, haven't fixed the broken quadrant bit yet
22:49:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I noticed, it gets stuck a lot. :-P
22:50:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, I saw that as well.
22:50:55 <oklopol> so who here have passed mycology?
22:51:06 <oklopol> a reasonable version of it
22:51:31 <oklopol> i haven't, but it's my dream to do it one day
22:51:39 <fizzie> It was too long, I ran out of patience.
22:51:54 <fizzie> But I hope one day to get an interpreter that does.
22:52:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, it is the bignum one coded in erlang yeah
22:52:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: What's line count for efunge vs. cfunge btw? (Ignoring fingerprints of course)
22:52:46 <Deewiant> An unfinished part of Mycology.
22:53:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, depends on which version of efunge, the one I was rewriting as a set of OTP style processes was considerably larger than the trunk one
22:53:12 <Deewiant> It evidently took on that name since the temporary file I originally made it in had/has that name.
22:53:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Well, all, I don't care.
22:53:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:53:27 <fizzie> "Ah, it must be myco*edge* because it's bleeding-*edge* software."
22:53:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Looks like 3559 for CCBI; still a bunch of TRDS handling and such in there, of course.
22:54:24 <Deewiant> Oh, and 519 of that is the debugger.
22:54:53 <Deewiant> So the core of CCBI is actually shorter than that version of efunge :-P
22:55:28 <Deewiant> Ah, you've got to include .h, too, unless they're autogenerated.
22:55:38 <Deewiant> Essentially, all the stuff you've written.
22:55:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, some of my *.h are auto generated, some are *.c
22:55:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: In the core, too?
22:56:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> one auto generated C and one auto generated h in core
22:56:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well src/instructions/safe_env.c for example
22:58:41 <fizzie> One of my matrices is a lot smaller than the others. :/ They should all be 64x5119, but that one is 64x1025. And it's number 7 out of a set of 39; there should be nothing special there. How strange.
22:58:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, 5062 lines for the speedup branch, 2987 lines code:
22:58:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> ---------------- ----- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
22:58:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> ---------------- ----- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
22:59:00 <Deewiant> Yay for pasting 80% pointless lines
22:59:12 <Deewiant> dmd 10 1964 401 17.0% 675 3040
22:59:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: --------- ------- isn't particularly important, nor is the total of a single number.
23:00:14 <Deewiant> dmd 14 1859 361 16.3% 544 2764
23:00:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, efunge trunk passes mycology and is still smaller
23:00:48 <Deewiant> dmd 17 2522 554 18.0% 784 3860
23:00:55 <Deewiant> I was wondering why it was so small :-P
23:01:27 <fizzie> 4527 total lines in jitfunge (.cc + .hh); I don't have any fancy line-counting tools.
23:01:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> >;Deewiant, so how much of ccbi2 works now;337**.@
23:01:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: It doesn't compile currently.
23:01:46 <Deewiant> Before that, it worked except for fingerprints.
23:02:21 <Deewiant> Or actually, I think I had a few fingerprints working as well.
23:03:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: But yeah, it's left in a fugue state where I was trying to clean something up and ran into the compiler bug.
23:03:27 <Deewiant> The annoying thing is that even if the bug was fixed it'd take me probably quite a long while to figure out what exactly I was trying to do.
23:03:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: No, it'd loop forever.
23:04:29 <Deewiant> CCBI 2 could do it rather easily.
23:04:41 <Deewiant> CCBI 1 is too full of globals to even consider it. :-P
23:04:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, the REPL or that way to write the string<q>
23:04:54 <Deewiant> I did get minifunge to work though. Never again.
23:05:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, but not as hacky.
23:05:31 <Deewiant> Or actually, I'm not sure if it's currently in a working state.
23:05:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, it does have quite a few fingerprints...
23:06:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: jitfunge is more like debug.com. :p
23:06:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: GNU ed, then. :-P
23:06:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> efunge is like heirloom ed run under an interpreting emulator on a i286
23:06:52 <Deewiant> By the way, objdump doesn't like my DOBELA interpreter :-(
23:06:59 <Deewiant> It seems to think that ELF files should have sections
23:07:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: No, they're optional.
23:07:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html -- "the section header table is optional for executables -- but is almost always present! "
23:08:11 <Deewiant> Linux does run the executable, after all. :-P
23:08:29 <fizzie> They could be defining optional rather loosely.
23:08:58 <Deewiant> Anyways, I need to hand-write the ELF header for my program.
23:08:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: Have you tried "readelf" on it?
23:09:22 <Deewiant> "There are no sections in this file.
23:09:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, don't do the "store program in unused fields in ELF header" please
23:10:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I mean, what do you need objdump for, if readelf can read it?
23:10:34 <Deewiant> fizzie: Disassembly? Also, I think making objdump work would make gdb a lot happier with it as well.
23:10:57 <fizzie> Actually it's rather reasonable that *obj*dump wants sections, since it's "display information from object files" and all.
23:11:10 <Deewiant> Scratch the first two words actually; the reason I tried to get disassembly to work was to get gdb to work.
23:11:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> <Deewiant> Also, I think making objdump work would make gdb a lot happier with it as well. <-- <Deewiant> Scratch the first two words actually
23:12:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: "error while reading ELF: Zero count for section headers"
23:12:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, it's what I meant, you just skipped the first word.
23:12:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's rather retro.
23:12:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: It's a hex editor?
23:13:00 <fizzie> It's also a disassembler-and-stuff.
23:13:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, there is F6 or something to put it in ELF mode
23:13:07 <Deewiant> Maybe it would be, if it liked my executable.
23:13:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Doesn't work, since it starts at 0 instead of where the code starts.
23:14:09 <Deewiant> Of course it does, since cfunge is probably made by GNU ld.
23:14:20 <fizzie> Since it's trying to be so tool-tool, one would think you could press some magic keys to tell it some offsets.
23:14:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, actually llvm-ld in this case, but it probably uses gnu ld below
23:14:41 <fizzie> Disclaimer: I don't even have it installed.
23:15:29 <Deewiant> fizzie: I can actually tell it to look at a certain offset; now if only I knew which one. :-P
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23:15:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: Didn't you write it yourself. :p
23:15:39 <Deewiant> I could ask my assembler, I guess.
23:15:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: Ah, not yet, that is.
23:16:20 <Deewiant> When I do, I'll add a section table, even though it'll bump this over 4 Kio.
23:16:30 <fizzie> You can ask readelf for the entry point and compute from that, if your assembler's not talking to you.
23:16:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: That's just the magic number at the beginning.
23:16:48 <Deewiant> I'm talking about the whole 300 bytes or whatever.
23:17:41 <fizzie> Well, is your entry point at the start of the code?
23:18:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Do tell me how.
23:18:16 <fizzie> The readelf-printed program header table probably should help you.
23:18:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, 0x78 or 0xe58 are my best guesses.
23:18:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, then search for that in your program to find the ELF header
23:18:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I'm not looking for the ELF header; it must be at 0.
23:18:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, and in ht I just press F6 and select elf/image
23:19:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Of course you do, since ht thinks your file is valid ELF.
23:19:26 <Deewiant> Even though it actually probably is, just a bit unusual.
23:19:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> you said "<Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Do tell me how."
23:19:56 <Deewiant> Yes, you did, and it didn't help me at all, since it assumes that ELF is autodetected correctly.
23:19:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, tell it where the section headers is or something, that would probably help
23:20:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: There are no section headers, as I said.
23:20:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, that's writing my own ELF headers, which I said I plan/need to do.
23:21:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Incidentally, what sort of tool made you that ELF file without section headers?
23:21:23 <Deewiant> Its 'ELF executable' mode is evidently supposed to be more of a debugging tool than anything you're meant to use.
23:21:53 <Deewiant> Maybe I could just turn my source files into *.o and use a linker.
23:22:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> <Deewiant> Its 'ELF executable' mode is evidently supposed to be more of a debugging tool than anything you're meant to use. <--- what
23:22:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: BTW, I can't force ht into x86-64 mode so this isn't helpful even if I know the offset, so so much for that.
23:22:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Something unclear?
23:22:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Note: "for you" makes no difference at all, since you have a different executable.
23:23:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I was speaking about fasm.
23:23:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:25:40 <Deewiant> I'll take this break in the discussion as an opportunity to go to bed ->
23:26:40 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Some sort of french page suggests those wrappers are generated for dynamically linked functions. Since the editor won't even try to do dynamic linking or figure out the function names.
23:28:09 <oklopol> i'd pass mycology in one coding streak
23:28:44 <oklopol> but noooo i need to have an exam tomorrow
23:28:54 <fizzie> *Why* is that stubborn matrix so small? Don't get it.
23:28:57 <oklopol> that was a bit of a finnishm
23:29:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection timed out).
23:30:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> also I have decided to be proud of my question marks
23:30:10 <fizzie> The one I was complaining about earlier. I have deliberately been vague about it.
23:31:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, where is this matrix used, what software or such
23:32:02 <fizzie> It's in Octave. I'm analyzing the [colloquial word for excrement] out of that matrix.
23:32:45 <fizzie> Yes, I'm analyzing poo out of the matrix.
23:32:54 <oklopol> hmm hope i didn't point to the wrong scientist
23:33:20 <fizzie> This is not work-related research, though.
23:33:28 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: are you a scientist?
23:33:49 <fizzie> (Except for very tortured definitions of "related".)
23:34:01 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: in what subject
23:34:13 <oklopol> what are your interests?????????????????
23:34:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, CS hopefully, Starting at uni this autumn.
23:34:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
23:35:19 <oklopol> the good parts of computer science don't really have much to do with science
23:35:42 <oklopol> terminology clash there prolly, i consider only inexact science science
23:36:04 <fizzie> oklopol: Also you consider only oko matters "good", I guess.
23:36:27 <oklopol> although i guess there is no term for exact science then, because math is reserved for a random subset of it.
23:36:58 <oklopol> fizzie: well only the things that are timeless
23:37:38 <oklopol> yes it sounds a bit silly as an english term
23:37:54 <fizzie> Anyway, we had a guy from TUT (Tampere University of Technology, where Tampere is a Finnish city) doing some random babbling, and there was this thing about non-negative matrix factorization for sound source separation, I wanted to play around with it a bit.
23:39:18 <oklopol> what's matrix factorization
23:39:39 <oklopol> i wish i hadn't skipped that linear algebra course, matrices are everywhere
23:40:04 <fizzie> It's when you have a matrix X, and then you figure out matrices Y and Z so that Y*Z is something a bit like X, maybe, sort-of.
23:40:32 <oklopol> err well okay, i guess that was kinda guessable
23:40:50 <fizzie> Non-negative matrix factorization is when the elements of X, Y and Z are all non-negative. :p
23:41:38 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: err wait you would actually be interested in a career in science? i always thought of you as the silent nerdy talented code monkey type
23:42:35 -!- neldoreth has joined.
23:42:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> like a citation needed statement replaced with a reference to another wikipedia page
23:43:40 <oklopol> doesn't sound very wikipediaish
23:43:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, what sort of job would I be able to get otherwise than in science, if I was "the silent nerdy talented code monkey type".
23:44:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> I don't fit FSF, because I lack a great big beard and the charisma.
23:44:13 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: well i was thinking you'd sit in a cubicle and make code for a big company
23:44:19 <oklopol> then again i guess you don't like companies
23:44:33 <GregorR> The beard isn't strictly necessary, but the charisma is.
23:45:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, rather I'd sit in a great big room and write a thesis on O(1) wait free algorithms that actually worked well in practise
23:45:26 <fizzie> Anyway, in this sound source separation application X is a collection of magnitude spectrums for short time windows of sound, and if you limit the number of columns in B (which == rows in G) to be suitably small, doing NMF estimation for X=B*G gives you a collection of "basis vectors" that are things like single notes of instruments, and a G matrix which represents the whole original sound as a linear combination of those.
23:46:12 <fizzie> Well, assuming you also have a sensible cost function when optimizing the X=B*G estimation. There's something about temporal continuity here.
23:46:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> GregorR, BUT: RMS, A. Cox and so on all have beards.
23:46:43 <GregorR> It's not necessary, but it helps.
23:46:51 <oklopol> i've never seen him do anything but bitch :D
23:47:12 <GregorR> So, if I connect to #esoteric with my BeagleBoard, is that cooler than AnMaster_ipv6 connecting via IPv6?
23:47:54 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: true, was just going to say i've probably only seen the bad stuff.
23:47:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> (because I have a runway process eating ram so can't run firefox too)
23:47:56 <fizzie> The clever part here is that if you then cluster the vectors in B completely blindly, you end up with clusters that actually represent different sound sources. Then, if you want, you can just pick up the basis vectors of one source, the corresponding rows from G, and reconstruct the signal from the magnitude spectrums (there's a trick for that too) you get the single source out. Clever!
23:48:44 <GregorR> AnMaster_ipv6: It's a small embedded ARM-based SBC.
23:48:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> (because I have a runway process eating ram so can't run firefox too)
23:48:48 <GregorR> AnMaster_ipv6: That runs Linux.
23:49:03 <oklopol> fizzie: do i just accept that, or ask for details?
23:49:04 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:49:12 <fizzie> oklopol: You get to choose.
23:49:29 <oklopol> fizzie: ah the beauty of conversing
23:49:42 <GregorR> AnMaster_ipv6: It can run Debian :P
23:49:59 <GregorR> Unless it's megashit code, it should work.
23:50:14 -!- fizzie6 has joined.
23:50:31 <fizzie6> hoy, there's a ipv6-enabled freenode server in sweden now, too.
23:50:45 <fizzie6> I don't think there was, last I looked.
23:50:59 <oklopol> fizzie: get a single source out?
23:51:16 <fizzie6> the only one in Finland (orwell) is a v4 thing.
23:52:03 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes. If you happen to have something like a musical piece with two instruments; if you do the trickery I described, you get them separated. Well, in theory, anyway.
23:53:09 <fizzie6> It's sad that this v6 connection doesn't really look any different from the v4 one to other people. There should be some sort of fancy star in the nickname or something.
23:53:27 <oklopol> fizzie: sounds like something worth experimenting with
23:53:48 <fizzie6> deliberate breakage does not sensible sound.
23:53:54 -!- fizzie6 has quit (Client Quit).
23:56:03 <fizzie> I think I have some sort of whitelisting in my firewalling rules. Maybe I'll let ehird to do that sort of stuff when he gets that native-v6.
00:01:38 <ehird> 22:44 AnMaster_ipv6: but bzr don't do the confusing thing that git does where you switch between branches
00:03:58 <ehird> http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/S09806763
00:04:34 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: white w/ t-leg.
00:04:42 <ehird> choose those and the awesome unfolds
00:04:49 <ehird> and because you need JS to select those
00:04:52 <ehird> so the images change
00:05:17 <ehird> it's everything you need in a desk
00:05:21 <ehird> as minimal as possible
00:05:30 <ehird> who needs drawers on a desk?
00:05:52 <ehird> Use standalone drawers.
00:05:57 <ehird> A desk is for putting things on.
00:06:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> would have fitted "<ehird> That's no desk." better
00:06:53 <oklopol> these drawers you speak of
00:07:01 <oklopol> what would they be drawing
00:07:02 <fizzie> ehird: Coincidentally, we have those desks exclusively (80x60+120x60 combinerated for me to a single two-meter-desk with six legs, a single 120x60 for the wife); they are white, although with the A-leg. I don't really remember the justifications for leg-selecting, but I don't have a problem with that either.
00:07:24 <ehird> See, the almighty fizzie uses the Ultimate Desk.
00:07:42 <fizzie> But with the wrong legs!
00:07:45 <ehird> what the fuck does that mean
00:07:52 <ehird> what is the difference between length and width
00:08:00 <fizzie> The other is longer. :p
00:08:08 <ehird> Yes but which applies and what
00:08:28 <fizzie> Well, both. They sell the desk parts in sizes 80x60, 120x60 and 120x80.
00:08:40 <fizzie> For that particular thing in the link, it's probably the 120x80 version.
00:08:52 <oklopol> you need to apply the symmetry theorem from table theory
00:08:57 <ehird> Min. height: 60 cm
00:08:59 <ehird> Max. height: 90 cm
00:09:03 <ehird> That looks very much like one measurement set to me.
00:09:27 <fizzie> Well, yes. It's the 120x80 table. So?
00:09:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> <oklopol> you need to apply the symmetry theorem from table theory <--- :D
00:09:37 <ehird> fizzie: 120x80, what two dimensions are these?
00:09:49 <ehird> I mean, height, width, thickness are all specified, so wtf is length?
00:10:08 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: "Width: 80cm"
00:10:09 <fizzie> The two dimensions of the actual table plate are "width" and "length".
00:10:20 <ehird> fizzie: so it's 120cm deep?
00:10:30 <ehird> http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/21139_PE106138_S4.jpg β then this is the longest fuckin' laptop ever
00:10:41 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: what? that's "Width"
00:10:50 <ehird> since when does width mean depth
00:11:10 <fizzie> Width and length are the two dimensions of the table plate. It's completely up to you how you situate it.
00:11:23 <ehird> Well that's the silly.
00:11:42 <fizzie> The image actually looks more like it's from the 120x60 variant.
00:11:47 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: 'width' and 'length' seem very the equal to me.
00:12:11 <ehird> fizzie: so they make an 80x60 one? that'll be what I want, then
00:12:18 <ehird> This dip thing is only 80cm wide
00:13:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, maybe tomorrow, if I get around to cleaning up the desk
00:13:15 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, well, I have special requirements (TM). Because I am short, for instance, I need it low down enough that I can see the monitor but still have the keyboard/mous at a comfortable level
00:13:18 <fizzie> ehird: The "More GALANT Desk System Products" -> "Table tops with frames" has the whole set. At least here the "a complete table" combinations actually listed there had a price exactly equal to sum of the parts.
00:13:24 <ehird> And it can only be 80cm wide due to space contraints.
00:13:28 <ehird> And I don't like frills.
00:13:41 <ehird> In conclusion: http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/17840_PE102272_S4.jpg FTW.
00:13:45 <ehird> oklopol: Um. Short. Very.
00:13:51 <ehird> Like, I don't even know.
00:14:17 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: so 6 feet
00:14:17 <fizzie> I opted to hook two of http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/50035115 's to the underside of this two-metres-long table, too.
00:14:22 <ehird> you're as tall as my dad, AnMaster_ipv6.
00:14:31 <ehird> (he is my one and only standard for tallity.)
00:14:40 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yes, well, I can't do metric for peoplesizes.
00:14:51 <fizzie> Misread "I can't do metric for pedophiles".
00:15:00 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: That's why I converted it for you
00:15:04 <oklopol> i'm like 180, but i'm kinda crouchy, and look more like 170
00:15:30 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: I was chceking before you interrupted
00:16:08 <fizzie> ehird: The 120x60 table can be seen in http://zem.fi/~fis/kotikuvei/olohuone.jpg
00:16:14 <kerlo> ehird: alternatively, how tall are you in feet and inches. :-P
00:16:22 * kerlo prepares Google for a metric conversion
00:16:54 <kerlo> 129.54 centimeters.
00:17:07 <kerlo> Unfortunately, that number is probably wrong, seeing as how ehird hasn't actually told us how tall he is yet.
00:17:15 <fizzie> (There are other pictures there of this place in the same directory, although the file names are all in Finnish.)
00:17:27 <kerlo> 111.76 centimeters.
00:17:36 <kerlo> 91.44 centimeters.
00:17:38 <oklopol> fizzie: err, you're a cat?
00:17:53 <oklopol> what the fuck, never cared to mention that?
00:17:57 <kerlo> 71.12 centimeters.
00:17:59 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, well, don't be a specieist.
00:18:30 <fizzie> oklopol: See how I've been locked out on the balcony? That's the sort of treatment I get around here.
00:18:37 <oklopol> being a lizard, i can't say i approve of cats.
00:18:38 <kerlo> Also, fizzie, very clever how you managed to take a picture of yourself from so far away.
00:19:02 <oklopol> especially being locked on the balcony
00:20:07 <ehird> β I am 146cm = 4 feet 9 inches. And 32kg.
00:20:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, you used telekinetics to open the door then?
00:20:35 <oklopol> omg you're smaller than my gf
00:21:07 <kerlo> That's 144.78 centimeters, or 4 feet and 9.48031496 inches.
00:21:10 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: No, it only works for controlling the camera.
00:21:10 <ehird> The first words of a few internet-friends I met in August '08 was "you're smaller than I expected".
00:21:24 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/kotikuvei/keittion_ikkuna.jpg β finland is so pretty
00:22:01 <fizzie> The name should be fi:"keittiΓΆn ikkuna" =~ en:"window in the kitchen", but I didn't dare to use ΓΆ in a file name.
00:22:10 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Your language is ugly though.
00:22:12 <fizzie> The snow's pretty much gone now.
00:22:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, yeah but it doesn't look like a joke instead..
00:22:47 <fizzie> A traditional example of an ugly-sounding Finnish phrase is: "ΓlΓ€ rÀÀkkÀÀ sitΓ€ kÀÀkkÀÀ."
00:22:51 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/kotikuvei/olohuone.jpg β that desk is the pretty but the shape of this room dictates 80cm width
00:22:59 <ehird> fizzie: no that's hot
00:23:00 <oklopol> ÀlÀ rÀÀkkÀÀ rÀkÀkÀÀkkÀÀ
00:23:10 <ehird> "do not torture that old goat"
00:23:21 <oklopol> kÀkkÀrÀnkkÀ vÀnkkÀÀ vÀÀrÀÀ mÀÀrÀÀ
00:23:26 <fizzie> Yes, that's rather close. I'm not sure how to translate "kÀÀkkÀ".
00:23:32 <ehird> anyway sweden is like the srs
00:23:36 <ehird> and finland is the jokes
00:24:19 <oklopol> "ÀlÀ rÀÀkkÀÀ rÀkÀkÀÀkkÀÀ" would be "do not torture the old snot goat"
00:24:28 <fizzie> The counterpart (i.e. the beautiful Finnish phrase) is "alavilla mailla hallan vaara".
00:24:58 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Snot is what comes out of your nose.
00:25:02 <olsner> AnMaster_ipv6: snorget
00:26:06 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: "risk of frost on low-lying areas" is one translation in the interwebs.
00:26:52 <oklopol> alivallimailan hillan viiru
00:27:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, "risk fΓΆr frost pΓ₯ lΓ₯glΓ€nta ytor" I think in Swedish
00:27:08 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: figured what out
00:27:34 <olsner> lΓ₯glΓ€nt? is that even a word?
00:28:16 <fizzie> Wiktionary "lowlands" just has translations "Dutch: laagland n" and a Serbian one.
00:28:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> I have heard lΓ₯glΓ€nt or maybe lΓ₯glent (but don't think so)
00:28:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> Results 1 - 10 of about 8,070 for lΓ₯glΓ€nt. (0.12 seconds)
00:29:10 <olsner> oklopol: google translate yields "Do not rÀÀkkÀÀ rÀkÀkÀÀkkÀÀ"
00:29:40 <olsner> oklopol: you claim to have
00:29:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> "[PDF] Bebyggelse frΓ₯n Γ€ldre bronsΓ₯lder i lΓ₯glΓ€nt terrΓ€ng - ww.arkeologiuv.se/publikationer/rapporter/vast/2008/rv2008_10.pdf
00:29:52 <oklopol> rÀÀkkÀÀ is a pretty basic finnish word, and rÀkÀkÀÀkkÀÀ should be simple to decompose, google translate sucks.
00:30:43 <oklopol> need to go to sleep soon methinks
00:31:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> "Sanakirja.org - KÀÀnnΓΆkset haulle lΓ₯glΓ€nt (ruotsi-suomi). KÀÀnnΓΆspeli. LΓ€hdekieli: Ruotsi." <-- what
00:31:19 <fizzie> olsner: Google Translate does know the infinitive form of "rÀÀkkÀÀ", which is "rÀÀkÀtÀ".
00:32:07 <fizzie> Uh... "Sanakirja.org - Translations for the search lΓ₯glΓ€nt (ruotsi-suomi). Translation game. Source language: Swedish."
00:32:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> "KÀÀnnâs. Adjektiivit. 1. alava. Sana kuuluu seuraaviin luokkiin: ..." too
00:32:23 <fizzie> Er, "ruotsi-suomi" being "Swedish-Finnish", forgot that part.
00:32:42 <fizzie> "Translation. Adjectives. 1. low-lying. The word belongs to the following classes: ..."
00:32:53 <fizzie> Well, I'm not sure if low-lying is the correct term.
00:33:09 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: "Dictionary".
00:33:16 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: I just didn't want to mess the DNS name.
00:33:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, well there was "lΓ₯glΓ€nt - Wikisanakirja" too
00:44:44 <ehird> Perl golf challenge: Take two filenames, XOR the file contents together char-by-char.
00:45:00 <ehird> <> only uses the first arg I think :-(
00:45:16 <fizzie> <> will read both files, but I don't think you can tell where the files change.
00:45:37 <fizzie> There probably was some magic current-file variable, though.
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00:48:30 <fizzie> Ah, you can use non-argument "eof" to determine when the file has closed. "perldoc -f eof" has an example. Not sure how golf-friendly that is.
00:48:49 <fizzie> I guess it would be reasonably short to change some sort of mode with that.
00:49:00 <ehird> at this point why not just slurp argvs
00:49:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> anti-golf: which is the most verbose programming language (in general, it can of course differ between tasks)
00:50:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, intercal would be better for certain bitwise operations though :D
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01:03:29 <gliopol> well how come you have both
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01:18:04 <ehird> http://technically.us/spde/Fold β this is neat.
01:36:17 <pikhq> Walmart: land of the absurdly odd bundles of Magic cards.
01:36:33 <pikhq> They sell packaged bundles which consist of a pack and some random cards...
01:36:47 <pikhq> I got cards from freaking Unlimited.
01:55:38 <kerlo> Magic: that game where one of the main ways to improve is by paying a certain company.
01:56:01 <kerlo> It's very unique in that respect. Completely unlike any other trading card game or MMORPG.
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10:16:19 <asiekierka> I'm trying to make a sorta-TV-channel again
10:22:59 <Deewiant> Can you write a working 'cat' in DOBELA? I thought about it a bit and failed
10:27:06 <Deewiant> It's at the point that it can run 'Hello!' (after I fixed the one on the wiki), now I'd like a more sophisticated test program :-P
10:28:22 <asiekierka> I think we have to clarify the outputting a bit more
10:28:37 <asiekierka> If there is a COMPLETE BYTE (8 bits) to output, it outputs it, and outputs all complete bytes
10:28:51 <asiekierka> If there are any bits left (less than 8), it ignores them
10:28:57 <Deewiant> Meh, that'd make it too easy :-P
10:29:18 <Deewiant> I think the more basic issue is that I don't see a way of doing 'do X every 8 iterations'
10:29:42 <asiekierka> Except if we do a loop that takes 8 iterations
10:29:57 <Deewiant> One thing that I thought of that might make it possible (and probably a lot of other things easier) is if we had a duplication instruction
10:30:04 <Deewiant> asiekierka: I tried that and failed
10:30:11 <Deewiant> Since the dot dies on hitting the generator
10:30:17 <Deewiant> And also when hitting the output
10:30:23 <Deewiant> With duplication it could be done
10:30:44 <Deewiant> Since you could then fork a dot to hit both the ^ and the :
10:30:44 <asiekierka> As in, when hit east or west, the same dot is sent north and south?
10:31:05 <Deewiant> Yes, and while we're at it, when hit north/south it's sent east/west
10:31:47 <asiekierka> Also, I wonder what to do with asievision
10:32:05 <Deewiant> Maybe DOBELA's now a bit closer to 99% TC :-P
10:32:44 <Deewiant> So can you write cat for me now? ;-)
10:33:21 <Deewiant> I have a bunch of work to do today so I probably won't have time to look at it... no worries if it takes you a week :-P
10:37:53 <asiekierka> Why? ^ can output AND change the data of all generators
10:38:04 <Deewiant> You need more than one generator?
10:39:05 <asiekierka> It should switch it in 2 cycles, but that's still not fast enough
10:39:26 <asiekierka> cuz a generator outputs every other cycle
10:39:44 <Deewiant> Remember that : starts on the second cycle and _ on the first
10:40:01 <asiekierka> So it requires 16 cycles for _ to output
10:40:02 <Deewiant> I was thinking that it might be easiest to start with
10:40:15 <Deewiant> So you get a bit of input every cycle
10:40:54 <asiekierka> And to make it 2 cycles, :+ doesn't need a space
10:40:55 <Deewiant> And then you need to hit a ^ at any multiple of 8
10:41:30 <asiekierka> I think if it hits a generator or something directly in the same cycle as being output, both count
10:41:38 <asiekierka> So Cycle 2: A dot gets output AND duplicated
10:41:48 <asiekierka> cycle 3: Hits a wall and toggles the generator off
10:42:34 <Deewiant> Like said, I don't have time today :-P
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10:42:55 <Deewiant> You don't need to do it now if you don't feel like it
10:44:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> <asiekierka> Well, now it's 99.25% TC I think <-- does such a measure even make sense?
10:44:11 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Does DOBELA even make sense?
10:44:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> so this interpreter, where can it be found Deewiant
10:45:00 <Deewiant> It doesn't implement much of anything yet
10:45:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, <insert rant about cathedral vs the bazaar>
10:45:13 <Deewiant> If you really want it, I can put the binary up
10:45:24 <Deewiant> It can only really run 'Hello world' though
10:46:13 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/zrKO1Q68.html - this is my idea
10:46:29 <Deewiant> I actually tried to think of a BF interpreter in DOBELA but then soon realized that I can't even implement cat :-P
10:46:43 <asiekierka> And it does not need to be a multiple of 8
10:46:55 <asiekierka> You know, if there are 9 bits stored, 8 are output and 1 is left
10:47:01 <asiekierka> 19 bits - 16 are output and 3 are left
10:47:07 <asiekierka> So duh, why do you need a multiple of 8?
10:47:08 <Deewiant> asiekierka: I think it's better that partial bits are output
10:47:21 <Deewiant> asiekierka: And as for 'why' β because that's what the specs currently say :-P
10:47:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> <Deewiant> asiekierka: I think it's better that partial bits are output <--- β½
10:48:27 <asiekierka> http://rafb.net/p/Zo1qa570.html ok, I did it I think
10:49:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> afaik you can only output complete bytes on most systems
10:49:10 <asiekierka> Well, it fills the byte with 0's if it's partial
10:49:28 <Deewiant> asiekierka: By the way, a problem with collision: What happens after ..#
10:50:09 <asiekierka> Theoretically they should create a wall
10:50:21 <Deewiant> Not according to the current rules
10:50:34 <Deewiant> asiekierka: Since '.. ' should be ' ..' next cycle
10:50:44 <asiekierka> As far as I remember, it does a collision if it can't be resolved
10:50:52 <Deewiant> But what happens there is that first the dot on the left moves so you have '.#' where there are two dots on the .
10:51:02 <Deewiant> Then the next dot turns but doesn't move
10:51:40 <Deewiant> So a wall gets created when the next dot finds out that it's standing on top of another dot?
10:51:52 <asiekierka> According to my rules, the first dot should stay in place, but the second hits the wall
10:52:22 <Deewiant> With top-left scanning the first dot should move first
10:52:28 <Deewiant> How would it know to stay in place
10:52:53 <Deewiant> That'd make moving a single dot O(n) where n is the size of the program
10:53:00 <Deewiant> Since it potentially has to scan n dots
10:53:13 <Deewiant> Yay, O(n^2) to move those dots
10:53:27 <Deewiant> And a pain in the ass to implement :-P
10:53:34 <asiekierka> So then, I think i'll go lazy and just make the dots create a wall
10:53:51 <Deewiant> And I guess this would be the same regardless of whether it's ,.# ,,# .,# ..#
10:53:52 <asiekierka> The first dot moves and the second bounces from the wall
10:54:37 <Deewiant> So you'd change how walls work?
10:55:07 <asiekierka> Because the second dot moves according to the wall rules
10:55:21 <Deewiant> Because the wall rules are currently that the dot turns but doesn't move
10:56:10 <asiekierka> I change the rules to "turn and then move one space"
10:56:29 <Deewiant> Where the dot to the north is moving south
10:56:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, btw why haven't you implemented this lang yourself?
10:57:19 <asiekierka> Tada! I waste 3 cycles on a collision!
11:01:26 -!- asiekierka has set topic: topic appoppic http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D aproppotic *popaboom*.
11:03:43 <lifthrasiir> DOBELA looks interesting, though i'm not yet clear how complex program can be achieved
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11:10:26 <Deewiant> asiekierka: So then collision detection is O(n) again :-/
11:13:52 <asiekierka> Deewiant: Nah, then just make every pair of these create a wall
11:14:01 <asiekierka> or whatever opposite-direction moving is handled
11:14:40 <asiekierka> You know, DOBELA is all special exceptions OR extremely stupid ideas
11:14:53 <Deewiant> asiekierka: But do you still think walls mean turn+move instead of just turn?
11:15:37 <Deewiant> That's an infinite loop in the interpreter then :-P
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11:17:16 <asiekierka> Deewiant: Then not, though I'd need to rework my engine then
11:17:31 <Deewiant> asiekierka: I think it's best to make it mean just turn
11:18:12 <asiekierka> Just make the second-duplicator loop double size
11:18:29 <Deewiant> I think the one that goes down from the first + fails
11:18:47 <Deewiant> Yep: you'll need another generator
11:19:42 <Deewiant> Then the upper : needs just one + and some timing.
11:22:33 <asiekierka> Wait, I need to think whether hitting ^ to restart generators on cycle 16 does make them work on cycle 16
11:22:55 <asiekierka> If not, I will need to remove the E near the rightmost ^
11:23:03 <asiekierka> (1-E are hex digits for counting the cycles
11:23:29 <Deewiant> asiekierka: If they are more southeast, then yes
11:24:39 <Deewiant> asiekierka: And btw, the dot that goes west from that + won't work like that: you have it turning first counterclockwise and then clockwise twice, but it should always turn counterclockwise
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11:31:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, asiekierka: seriously, DOBELA does seem to have too many obscure rules.
11:31:09 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: it's an esolang
11:31:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: It's his spec, not mine.
11:31:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> so I think the interpreter should be named that...
11:31:21 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: also, interesting nick
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11:38:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I don't get the reference, FWIW.
11:38:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> btw, so far the only gcc option that actually seems to break cfunge is -ffast-math (which make DATE fail in mycology), not are make it faster, but no other ones in the optimising section of the manual seem to actually produce a broken program. I'm currently checking which exact option that -ffast-math enables it is that breaks cfunge...
11:39:19 <Deewiant> Found it on Wikipedia, never heard of it before.
11:39:44 <ais523> well, Deewiant isn't British, that's just about a small excuse for not having heard of Mornington Crescent
11:40:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I never heard of it before it was mentioned in this channel, but it has been mentioned so often in here...
11:41:10 <ais523> mornington crescent's one of the best-known parts of ISIHAC
11:41:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I find no mention in my logs since February.
11:41:21 <ais523> but there are others, such as the bit where they sing one song to the tune of another
11:41:24 <Deewiant> That doesn't count as 'often' then. :-P
11:41:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Don't have them handy.
11:41:59 <ais523> "I'm Sorry, I Haven't A Clue"
11:42:04 <ais523> the name of a British radio program
11:42:15 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/irclogs/freenode/#esoteric$ grep -i mornington 200[3-8]* | wc -l
11:42:22 <fizzie> I'm not sure either that this qualifies as "often".
11:43:48 <fizzie> Those 9 are at: 2006-06-15 18:20:08; 2008-06-15 00:40:26; 2008-06-18 00:00:07..00:02:23; 2008-07-03 18:54:28; 2008-12-15 19:21:32..19:21:46.
11:44:09 <fizzie> So it's been mentioned at about five occasions.
11:44:57 <fizzie> The set of "crescent" matches is equal, except with one addition: [2008-06-18 00:00:48] < tusho> #nomicton-crescent if anyone wants to try it
11:46:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> -ffast-math breaks cfunge under gcc 4.1 but not 4.3 it seems
11:48:11 -!- gliopol has changed nick to oklopol.
11:48:28 <ais523> oklopol: interesting nick you just changed from
11:48:31 <ais523> is there a story behind it
11:48:49 <oklopol> it's always either social blabber, your incomprehensible unix talk, or befunge
11:49:30 <fizzie> <oklopol> glio glio bolf glo flomog
11:49:30 <fizzie> * oklopol is now known as gliopol
11:49:33 <fizzie> For some values of "story".
11:49:36 <oklopol> it doesn't suffi...xify well
11:50:09 * oklopol takes a deeper look at dobela
11:51:17 <asiekierka> I want to make a better esolang though
11:51:34 <fizzie> oklopol: When you gaze deep into dobela, the dobela gazes into you.
11:51:49 <fizzie> oklopol: You must face the dobela alone.
11:52:59 <oklopol> don't fix it too much, from the discussion above it seems it is currently the interesting kind of esolang, since no one knows it's whether it's tc
11:53:32 <oklopol> i mean for sure, usually you can tell by a glance
11:53:56 <oklopol> fizzie: i plan to, unless someone wants to share my monitor with me
11:55:04 <oklopol> and "do" is pronounced like the "do" in "don't" :D
11:55:42 <fizzie> "DOBELA -- putting the "do" back in "don't"."
11:55:46 <oklopol> (probably not intended,and probably not funny in any way)
11:56:16 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: was slashes discussed last night?
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11:58:33 <asiekierka> I wonder what would my new esolang be like
11:58:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> it tries to find common code and abstract it out in a shared function
11:58:55 <oklopol> AnMaster_ipv6: well, i agree that's one of the gems; but i'm more interested in the fact something happened here :D
11:59:54 <asiekierka> I need a language that will make some videos for me
12:00:05 <asiekierka> but I'm afraid an interpreter will take a while to do
12:00:54 <oklopol> ".= turns into a =,", does that mean it moves :DD
12:01:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> I should try to make a complete list of all gcc command line options
12:02:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> there is a *doucmented* switch gcc --help=undocumented
12:02:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> some of those are documented in man page, how boring
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12:09:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> GCC 4.3.2 --help -v supports some 770+ unique options
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12:10:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> a bit hard to count since some are listed like: -Wnormalized=<id|nfc|nfkc> Warn about non-normalised Unicode strings
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12:10:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> --param l1-cache-size The size of L1 cache --param l1-cache-line-size The size of L1 cache line
12:12:05 <oklopol> didn't Deewiant say cat was impossible to implement
12:12:23 <oklopol> i must have misunderstood something because there's a cat on the page
12:12:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, I think they were trying to add something to support it
12:13:22 <oklopol> hmmmmm right actually that's not a cat
12:13:28 <oklopol> just collects stuff on the queue
12:13:47 <oklopol> there's that rules that the dots can stop each other from moving
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12:14:01 <oklopol> so maybe you could have two generators
12:14:34 <oklopol> and as long as stuff came out the stdin, they'd always block the dots for one cycle, and the two generators' dots would collide
12:14:54 <oklopol> they wouldn't collide, and a generator would be set on
12:15:10 <oklopol> and dots would start coming out, emptying the queue into stdout
12:15:32 <oklopol> well dunno, i should start reading my readings now
12:18:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, hm this requires that there isn't any delay in the input data right?
12:19:07 <oklopol> i assume that delays the whole program
12:19:22 <oklopol> otherwise it's trivially impossible to know when there's no input left
12:19:39 <oklopol> couldn't you just output the contents of the queue all the time
12:20:01 <oklopol> well, maybe i'm fundamentally misunderstanding something
12:20:30 <Deewiant> oklopol: You can't output every bit, you have to output every byte
12:20:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> I think it is wrong for esolangs to use blocking IO
12:21:38 <oklopol> but, couldn't you still use the idea of waiting for eof?
12:22:55 <Deewiant> You can try, I couldn't figure out a way of getting it to work
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12:23:12 <ais523> just send a literal control-D when you reach the end of the file
12:23:23 <oklopol> actually my idea doesn't work
12:23:35 <oklopol> there are both 1- and 2-dots
12:23:44 <oklopol> so clearly you cannot rely on that delaying behavior
12:23:54 <oklopol> because if one delays, the other is destroyed
12:24:12 <oklopol> and because there's no duplication, it's impossible to get any use out of
12:25:12 <ais523> is there a Funge fingerprint for it
12:25:29 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL can simulate a select(), but you need to run multiple programs at once and use network connections
12:25:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I guess you could do it in Feather though?
12:25:57 <ais523> Feather doesn't really define its I/O environment at all
12:26:15 <ais523> it just uses abstract input/output streams, the implementation decides what they're connected to, if anything
12:27:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, with implementation defined extensions for sockets and such possibly?
12:28:05 <ais523> that would just be another input/output stream
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12:33:18 <asiekierka> I'm thinking about an esolang represented as lines
12:33:49 <asiekierka> but they can go up and down and right, never back left
12:34:44 <asiekierka> So basically, 2 variables: Angle and Length :P
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12:35:36 <asiekierka> It would be cool if it had a mechanical interpreter
12:36:13 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: there are angle-based graphical languages like Wierd, but i don't know any angle-and-length-based one
12:36:47 <asiekierka> well, it is angle and length of the line going at that angle
12:37:22 <asiekierka> Well, this language can be interpreted only with a ruler and a protractor
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12:38:13 <asiekierka> and written with a pen and a ruler and a protractor
12:38:41 <asiekierka> except if you interpret the results yourself
12:39:24 <asiekierka> -5 to 5 degrees of angle: NOP for x milimetres
12:40:01 <asiekierka> 5 to 30: Increment variable (3+(x*5)), where x is the length
12:40:50 <asiekierka> so the length can be 3, 8, 13, 18, or 23
12:41:16 <asiekierka> But I can't believe I'm making an esolang for which you only need a ruler and a protractor
12:41:59 <asiekierka> er, 5 to 30 should be: Increment variable x, and the calculation for drawing the line is (3+x*5)
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12:45:17 <asiekierka> i made my first program that makes no sense
12:45:34 <asiekierka> First it nop's for 10 cycles, then it increments variables 0 and 1 and decrements 2
12:45:47 <Ilari> asiekierka: Add instructions to change "speed", the space being transformed from underlying space to reading space using Lorentz tranformations. :-)
12:46:09 <asiekierka> Ilari: I'm not a maths geek so I don't know what you mean
12:46:20 <asiekierka> But i still have 300 degrees left to use
12:48:08 <asiekierka> I will show you how the program looks like
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12:48:48 <asiekierka> as i'm too lazy to pull out my scanner
12:49:45 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: When one's speed reaches the speed of light, what he/she sees is distorted according to his/her direction.
12:51:34 <lifthrasiir> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lorentz_transform_of_world_line.gif it is very excellent image explaining such behavior
12:52:13 <asiekierka> It doesn't help much, but I get the idea
12:52:33 <Slereah_> There's a much better example actually
12:52:52 <Slereah_> There's a software that lets you pilot a little spaceship at relativistic speeds
12:53:27 <lifthrasiir> for example, http://www.adamauton.com/warp/ ?
12:53:45 <lifthrasiir> there are plenty of programs there, search for "relativity simulation" for example
12:58:14 <asiekierka> but i still don't quite get it, but nah, lemme upload how a typical handmade Anglent program looks like
12:58:23 <asiekierka> (Anglent is a temporary name, maybe it'll stay)
12:59:38 <asiekierka> http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6489/dsc01722q.jpg - here you go
13:00:05 <asiekierka> the last NOP line may NOT be working but should
13:00:17 <asiekierka> The interp should handle errors in draw
13:03:24 <ais523> sorry, I was having technical problems trying to load it
13:03:33 <ais523> I'll let you know when I can actually see the image
13:04:02 <ais523> is it just a weird way to represent a program
13:04:07 <ais523> or are you going to add restrictions
13:04:21 <ais523> such as preventing the line crossing itself, or forcing it to come back to its starting point, or something?
13:04:27 <ais523> you could have multithreading by branching and rejoining the lines
13:04:34 <ais523> maybe Befunge-style loops, too
13:04:51 <ais523> although those would involve going left
13:05:03 <asiekierka> The "Audioform/Basic" version can't branch, is just a long, variously curved line
13:06:08 <asiekierka> You can't do them in Audioform/Basic. Why? Cuz Audioform/Basic is the version capable of possibly being stored in a WAV file
13:06:31 <asiekierka> Audioform/Pro allows to jump back by x milimetres, where x is the length of the line
13:06:46 <asiekierka> But i'm going to work on Audioform/Pro first
13:07:00 <asiekierka> So 30-45 degrees is: Jump back by x milimetres
13:07:28 <asiekierka> 45-55 is: Jump back by x milimetres if variable 0 is larger than 0
13:07:35 <asiekierka> Oh, and variables can have values from 0 to 9
13:07:52 <asiekierka> Why? Cuz I want to make an interpreter that doesn't need any electronics
13:08:25 <asiekierka> Oh, and -30 to -40 is: Jump back by x milimetres if variable 1 is larger than 0
13:09:23 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I don't offhand, I assume someone does but they might not be in this channel
13:09:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, but even wikipedia's article on whois doesn't mention any
13:10:35 <asiekierka> -40 to -50 is: Swap variable x with variable 0. The length is (3+x*5)
13:10:43 <asiekierka> -50 to -60 is the same, but with variable 1.
13:10:57 <asiekierka> So -60 to 55, which leaves me 30 on the minus side and 35 on the plus side
13:11:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, well I found some I think, seems the RIPE one is open or shared source (not sure yet)
13:12:10 <asiekierka> Ok, so, ais523: Any ideas what to do with the leftover command space?
13:12:32 <asiekierka> I think I may do an input command, as in "Set whatever variable you want in variable 0"
13:13:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/dbase/software/whoisserver-nightly.tgz <-- hm *loading*
13:13:29 <asiekierka> And well, you can't go left so you must do meaningless commands to be on the right track
13:13:49 <asiekierka> a bunch of -4 degree "nop 3" or something
13:14:25 <asiekierka> Or -25 "dec 0" and +10 "inc 0", that gives you -15 in 6 milimetres
13:14:55 <asiekierka> Or -28 and +7, which gives you -21 degrees
13:16:13 <asiekierka> Remember, going over -90 or 90 degrees is an error in a computer interpreter
13:16:38 <fizzie> Yes, I think SixXS uses the RIPE server sources too for whois.sixxs.org.
13:17:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> and there is an embedded imap server software it seems
13:17:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> with code around for AMIGA and DOS (in the directory for the imap part)
13:20:35 <asiekierka> Well, I'm working on a rough template of a Anglent interpreter board
13:21:22 <asiekierka> which you need to combine with a drawing of an Anglent program
13:21:47 <asiekierka> An Anglent board currently contains the state of v0 to v4
13:22:33 <ais523> asiekierka: why not v6?
13:22:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> btw anyone made a non-discrete automaton yet? DOBELA is after all discrete, using ticks, and cells
13:22:49 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: Gravity, but it's uncomputable
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13:23:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yes I know that one is uncomputable. But is it possible to make a computable automaton like that?
13:23:17 <asiekierka> And you CAN have more than 5 variables
13:23:19 <ais523> asiekierka: clearly I should make my jokes more obvious
13:23:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, because I don't know *why* Gravity is uncomputable
13:23:56 <asiekierka> Oh, and for multithreading programs you need more Anglent boards
13:23:57 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: because you need infinite precision in solving differential equations to solve it
13:24:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, ah right. What I meant would be something like that Photon idea I had. where program was controlled by photons hitting mirrors that moved to cause sensitive switches to change and such
13:25:12 <asiekierka> And 65 to 80 degrees is: Exchange between process x and process 0, where the line length is (2+(x*4)) mm
13:25:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> I mean, tracing the photons emitted to see what they hit
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13:26:55 <asiekierka> Forking is represented by drawing a straight line down from the process you want to fork from.
13:27:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, you are going to implement it yourself this time?
13:27:42 <asiekierka> AnMaster: If by "implement" you mean "the human interpreter board", I already did that
13:27:53 <asiekierka> Because it is intended to be interpreted by a human
13:28:53 <asiekierka> So, yep, but an interpreter is centrainly possible, but human is better for such things
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13:30:32 <asiekierka> Of course, it would be a pain to interpret if it splits in 25 processes or something
13:30:48 <asiekierka> ANGLENT: (process amount) users required!
13:31:18 <asiekierka> Oh, and if a process ends, the board can be reused
13:31:39 <asiekierka> Why? Because it may still copy data from that process
13:31:56 <asiekierka> So we need -60 to -70: Remove process x, where the line length is (5+(x*5)) mm
13:31:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, example program please. Because I have no idea what you are trying to describe
13:32:07 <asiekierka> I already gave a link, but it's simple
13:32:51 <asiekierka> I'm making a program showing more features
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13:33:29 <asiekierka> There is a "jump back if variable 0 > 0"
13:33:37 <asiekierka> and you can swap different variables with variables 0 and 1
13:34:15 <asiekierka> Well, you CAN extend memory by using more processes
13:34:44 <asiekierka> Variables are digits from 0 to... guess.
13:35:03 <asiekierka> Because it's meant to be interpreted by human
13:35:32 <asiekierka> And I don't want to make the boards too large
13:35:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> well and? Humans calculated pi to several hundred digits long before computers were invented
13:36:00 <asiekierka> That's the good thing, it only defines the commands
13:36:12 <asiekierka> it doesn't define anything else, the number of processes, number of digits
13:37:55 <asiekierka> the other point is that it can't go left
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13:39:17 <asiekierka> but that's not drawing a line backwards
13:39:52 <asiekierka> By "the line can't go backwards" I meant "the line can't be drawn backwards, it must go right, even if by a minimal amount"
13:40:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, you need to write a reference implementation that interprets svg images
13:40:06 <asiekierka> The exception is forking, cuz you draw a straight line down for that
13:40:31 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Why can't I just show you an image of a program and how it works when interpreted
13:40:54 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Or make a video where I interpret a program myself?
13:41:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> what about making each program recursively fork new ones
13:41:38 <asiekierka> Well, you need to remove a process for it to not count
13:41:50 <asiekierka> By making a fork and jumping back so you can make the fork again
13:41:58 <asiekierka> without removing the previous process's data
13:42:36 <asiekierka> Well, you can't clone the program you're doing
13:42:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, can the forked process jump back to the previous program to make a fork too
13:42:50 <asiekierka> The forked process is it's own set of commands
13:42:58 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Incidentally, I just solved that "matrix too short" issue I had.
13:42:58 <asiekierka> but it may exchange data between any process
13:43:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> so you can't make an exponential growing fork bomb
13:43:54 <asiekierka> Well, I need to add a "jump forward" command for that
13:43:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> I hope you can skip code depending on if a variable is set or not
13:44:36 <asiekierka> -70 to -80: Jump forward x milimetres if v0 > 0, length is (4+(x*5))
13:45:08 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: My original sound source was a .mp3 file recorded from one of those interweb radios; the script used sox to turn that to a raw audio file for the Octave analysis. I was correctly looking at the raw audio file for the amount of samples, but accidentally reading the from the unconverted MP3. So one of the blocks was shorter because it hit the end of the MP3 file, and the blocks after that were full-length since fseek-past-end-of-file was actually
13:45:08 <fizzie> silently failing in Octave, and they started reading from the beginning of the file.
13:45:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> yes sure, but I can't see how you could make each process be a sub-fork-bomb
13:46:01 <fizzie> (Of course reading the .mp3 file as a raw audio file also meant the results were, shall we say, suboptimal. Whelp, that's about twenty hours of CPU time wasted.)
13:46:10 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, I think you can make each fork process be an infinite loop
13:47:09 <asiekierka> And you can make an infinite fork-creating loop in the main process
13:47:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, yep but that is not what I asked about
13:47:28 <oklopol> fizzie: how much was wasted in human money?
13:47:31 <asiekierka> You can't make every process a sub-fork-bomb
13:47:38 <asiekierka> Except if a program could fork-clone itself
13:47:50 <fizzie> oklopol: Depends on the amount of $$$s you give for my sanity, I guess.
13:47:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, can't it draw a straight line up to a previous program?
13:48:20 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, I did think of that but it may get too messy for a human
13:48:28 <asiekierka> I'm thinking of drawing a straight line up to CLONE a process
13:48:44 <asiekierka> as in, like forking, but it does whatever the process forked from is doing
13:48:58 <fizzie> oklopol: Well, some vaguely definable part of that was lost. Maybe around one euro, then.
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13:49:40 <oklopol> fizzie: well i assume you value your sanity more than me
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13:51:19 <fizzie> Yes. Well, a more objective number would be the amount of electrons wasted, but I don't care enough to start approximating that.
13:58:08 <asiekierka> well, it nops 5, inc's v0, clones itself, nops 10 and jumps back just to the moment of cloning
13:58:26 <asiekierka> http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9668/dsc01723m.jpg
13:59:24 <asiekierka> Well, it will work on a COMPUTER interpreter
13:59:34 <asiekierka> cuz HUMAN interpreters will probably realize it's a forkbomb
14:01:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, you completely failed to detect the INTERCAL reference right?
14:02:49 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: "execute PLEASE" is redundant
14:02:58 <ais523> you should just say "and PLEASE GIVE UP instead"
14:03:13 <ais523> INTERCAL's syntax was designed to be embedded into natural-lanuage English sentences, and you even fail to use that feature?
14:05:13 <oklopol> yes AnMaster_ipv6 how dare you not be good at it
14:05:28 <oklopol> there is an infinite amount of crap in my keyboard
14:05:35 <oklopol> when i turn it upside down
14:06:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> 2) figure out a way to use it as memory then make an UTM
14:06:03 <oklopol> an infinite stream of all kindsa stuff snows down
14:06:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, don't waste the possibility to make an UTM!
14:08:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, interesting, gcc has an option to try to make use of delayed branch slots...
14:08:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> If supported for the target machine, attempt to reorder instructions to exploit instruction slots available after delayed branch instructions.
14:09:04 <fizzie> Is that turned on by default? One would think it would be.
14:15:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, there are lots of interesting flags to gcc, did you see what I said above there seems to be roughly over 770 of them
14:15:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> (a bit hard to measure, the --help -v output is not that simple to parse)
14:15:45 <fizzie> Did not notice that, no.
14:16:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> also: <AnMaster_ipv6> GCC has an anti-inline option
14:16:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> it tries to find common code and abstract it out in a shared function
14:16:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> there is a *doucmented* switch gcc --help=undocumented
14:16:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> some of those are documented in man page, how boring
14:17:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, around that is info about the 770 flags in logs
14:20:24 <fizzie> Yes, well, I did catch the gist of it: there are some 770+ options.
14:22:31 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: the documentation for --help=undocumented is obviously lying
14:22:41 <ais523> now you can decide whether it counts as a documented switch or not
14:23:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, It seems to mean there is no --help text stored for the switch
14:23:54 <asiekierka> So, well, I gotta collect all Anglent commands
14:23:55 <ais523> well, yes, that's a good definition of undocumented
14:24:04 <ais523> and it is auto-generated, gcc has command-line option definition files
14:24:15 <ais523> its whole command-line option infrastructure is /really/ over the top
14:24:28 <ais523> but I suppose with 770 options, it needs a pretty heavyweight infrastructure
14:24:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, Why doesn't it use GNU getopt_long? After all it is a GNU project so why...
14:24:53 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: probably it does internally, but are you going to pass 770 options to it by hand?
14:25:00 <ais523> also, the options depend on things like compile-time flags
14:25:24 <ais523> so it has a heavy infrastructure for trying to make sure the options end up in the binary
14:25:28 <ais523> and also in the documentation
14:26:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yeah openmp is a compile time option for gcc itself. So the existence of -openmp (or whatever) at compile time(1) depends options passed at compile time(2)
14:27:20 <ais523> in gcc-bf, all the compile-time options are actually link-time, passed with -Wl
14:27:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, even that -m open I suggested to select EOF value?
14:28:22 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I haven't implemented that yet, but it's a library issue not a main-program issue
14:29:35 <ais523> I haven't worked on it for a while
14:29:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> I mean can you get it to generate a runnable program
14:29:45 <ais523> I can run some very simple programs
14:29:57 <ais523> the current state is that some features, like multiplication, are missing
14:30:00 <ais523> and most of the others are buggy
14:30:10 <ais523> but it does generate bf, sometimes the bf even works
14:30:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, the patch to gcc I could host, the full gcc would be a bit too large.
14:30:43 <ais523> well, let me create something to host first
14:31:00 <ais523> I haven't slept for 5 or 6 nights in a row
14:31:08 <ais523> although I have been sleeping over the day to make up
14:31:34 <ais523> and because I've been getting my University project report finished, it's worth a massive number of marks and the deadline's tomorrow
14:32:26 <ais523> I came in today to look up a reference
14:36:32 <ais523> wow, some spam I can actually read
14:36:33 <fizzie> Heh, we have this pair-wise university project that is now approximately two years late of the deadline, because the deadline was a "soft" one. It's "almost done", hoping to finish it tomorrow.
14:36:34 <ais523> "We apologize for contacting you at this time of the day on 08:16 AM , and we hope that we haven't interrupted you in anyway, but we wanted to make sure that you received the message that we sent you last week. We have checks ready to send you for offering us your honest opinion on various online surveys that only take a few minutes to complete."
14:36:48 <ais523> it's even spelt correctly and almost has correct grammar
14:36:54 <ais523> something's gone wrong with the world
14:37:48 <ais523> (I set my email client to never show HTML email; if there's no plain text it just shows nothing. This has the nice side effect of meaning most spam doesn't show up.)
14:39:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, does anyone actually enable HTML email support?
14:39:27 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: you'd be surprised
14:39:35 <ais523> pretty much all internet users have it on by default
14:40:08 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: but then you couldn't send people emails with smileys and pictures in
14:40:19 * ais523 wonders if it's possible to send an HTML form by email
14:40:59 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: you don't get the point, the point isn't to send information
14:41:03 <ais523> the point is that the email /looks pretty/
14:42:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> you could make your email client convert them in pure text messages
14:42:43 * AnMaster_ipv6 has seen a bug tracker that converted smilies everywhere
14:42:55 <fizzie> You can't have that pretty pink background in your message.
14:43:02 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: emails sent in Outlook by default not only use HTML, but with some awful Microsoft out-of-bound information
14:43:16 <ais523> also, replies come up in blue
14:43:23 <ais523> personally I think it looks hideous
14:43:44 <fizzie> MSN messenger converts (or at least used to) some pretty common character combination to a smiley, I think it was ":s".
14:43:47 <ais523> I haven't slept for almost 24 hours, please forgive me
14:44:01 <ais523> fizzie: in what way is :s common?
14:44:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, add notice at top saying: For best viewing experience set your terminal emulator to use pink background.
14:44:14 <ais523> I'd say MSN is probably acting according to the wishes of the majority of its users
14:44:29 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: err... how many people view email on a terminal emulator nowadays/
14:44:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well ok, but usually GUI clients doesn't have features like that
14:45:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> thus making text based ones more flexible (as usual)
14:45:21 <ais523> they do have HTML email support, always in my experience
14:45:25 <ais523> I know of no exceptions
14:45:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> + you can get pink for the inbox listing too in pine I guess
14:45:56 * ais523 is suddenly annoyed that ehird isn't here to watch
14:46:31 <ais523> both konsole and gnome-terminal could handle it easily
14:46:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well I'm glad he isn't because he wouldn't just watch, he would take active part
14:46:37 <ais523> you are still missing the point of HTML email, anyway
14:47:02 <ais523> if your alternative is to insist that everyone who reads your email uses a terminal emulator just so they can override the background of your email to pink
14:47:06 <ais523> then you are missing the point
14:48:15 <fizzie> ais523: Finnish as all those suffixes instead of prepositions, and a lot of them start with 's'; OTOH, for abbreviations a common style is to use : before the suffix. So "in C++" would be translated as "C++:ssa", and MSN would convert that to "C++[silly smiley]sa".
14:48:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ais523> you are still missing the point of HTML email, anyway
14:49:00 <ais523> I assume that most MSN Messenger users aren't Finnish
14:49:09 <ais523> just based on statistics
14:49:13 <ais523> probably most are American
14:49:44 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "a lot of them" start with s, but both the "-ssa" and "-sta" suffixes (which correspond to "in" and "from" prepositions, roughly) do, and those are rather common.
14:50:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, can't you turn that off in your msn client?
14:51:56 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I have trouble just trying to close MSN when someone else has left it running
14:52:09 <ais523> it is a very hard program to use correctly, the user interface is seriously unintuitive
14:52:12 <fizzie> I suspect the smileys are configurable. I do MSN with Bitlbee in an IRC client, anyway.
14:52:25 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: in a cybercafe?
14:52:38 <ais523> worrying enough that the session didn't end when the person before me ran out of time
14:53:31 <ais523> more worrying still that control-alt-delete actually worked there and you could kill the thing that logged you off with it
14:53:38 <ais523> but I didn't do that as it probably would have been theft
14:53:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm, irritating when music have very quiet and very loud parts after each other. you have to constantly tune the volume to either be able to hear the music or not destroy your ears
14:54:46 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: apply some compression to it?
14:56:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I'm listening using a radio. Not a computer
14:56:22 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: compression as in the musical effect
14:56:35 <ais523> and probably most radios don't have it available
14:57:51 <asiekierka> And I minimized it to just use -35 to 35
14:57:54 <fizzie> One of the higher-end home theater -style systems could probably do it; at least it certainly could if they'd bothered to program that part in, since it's all done with DSP anyway.
14:58:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, hm wouldn't it also destroy the feeling of the music kind of
14:58:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> for something like Per Gynt (full opera) at least...
14:58:47 <fizzie> Tuning the volume around mid-piece is probably not any better than processing the signal otherwise, for the "intent" of the composer.
14:59:07 <lifthrasiir> hmm, is there any XML-based esolang? i'm designing one but i'd like to see how other XML-based one does.
15:00:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, they should limit the dynamic range, some sort of regulation is needed
15:03:48 <fizzie> Well, unless you have an excessively fancy radio, you'll probably have to run it through a computer or something if you want to do that at your end.
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15:08:43 <oklopol> i can't stand graphical smileys, it's not that they're big and yellow, that's okay, it's just it looks really weird when the face is ...upside-up
15:09:10 <asiekierka> A simple infinite loop in Anglent looks like a curve
15:10:15 <oklopol> maybe it's the yellow thing after all.
15:10:31 <oklopol> maybe it's the fact it's in a circle
15:10:54 <oklopol> can you do _ plus umlaut for me?
15:10:58 <fizzie> You only like people who do not have a physical head, just the face flying around.
15:11:10 <fizzie> β is pretty close. :p
15:11:38 <oklopol> if only i had any idea how to do it
15:11:51 <oklopol> how do people do unicode anyway?
15:12:18 <fizzie> oklopol: I just pick from the "gucharmap" application. That one was U+268D DIGRAM FOR LESSER YIN.
15:12:19 <oklopol> do you have like a 2d chart and an approximate knowledge of what's where
15:12:27 <ais523_> oklopol: I use the character map application on here
15:12:35 <ais523_> and approximate knowledge to find the character quickly
15:12:39 <fizzie> gucharmap and "view / by unicode block", that's usually enough.
15:12:46 <ais523_> some I have memorised, like Γ© and β
15:13:01 <fizzie> Em-dash with combining diaeresis: βΜ
15:13:37 <oklopol> Γ© too, just ' plus e (' only shows the correct dottie when used with the e)
15:14:00 <oklopol> fizzie: omg that's cute :>
15:14:16 <fizzie> There's a dead key in the default fi layout which adds Β΄ and ` to letters.
15:14:34 <oklopol> diaeresis sounds like a plural of diarrhea
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15:14:43 <ehird> 13:45 ais523 is suddenly annoyed that ehird isn't here to watch
15:14:57 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6 suffers from "I don't like this feature, why isn't everyone an ΓΌbergeek like me"-itis
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15:15:29 <oklopol> the third eye is not on the face here
15:15:50 <oklopol> that's a colon + a third dot almost on the line above
15:15:58 <fizzie> It's probably not been optimized for smiley usage; it was just the vertical ellipsis in mathematical operators.
15:16:09 <oklopol> well. noodle time i thinks
15:16:28 <ehird> is it bad that I like xslt sort of
15:16:41 <fizzie> oklopol: is β) better?
15:16:59 <fizzie> And yes, there's both β° and β±
15:19:06 <ais523> <comment on a news article? "hello sir , i was read your whole article that's good . there are kindly request by me plz give me the whole details in my email id.sothat i read it very well way"
15:19:18 <ais523> that makes no sense either as a spambot or as a please send me the codes
15:19:21 <ais523> what's going on there?
15:20:25 <asiekierka> *ahem* Yep, centrainly Chingrish or a Chinese spambot
15:21:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> <asiekierka> fizzie: Eyes are not so fat! <asiekierka> or big <-- ... never heard that story
15:21:43 <asiekierka> I'm going to work on many "graph" languages which can be interpreted by human
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15:38:33 <asiekierka> I made AngF too, BF which looks like Anglent code
15:41:46 <lifthrasiir> http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/xumul well, i'm designing this stupid language now.
15:42:06 <asiekierka> lifthrasiir: You can't get more stupid than AngF
15:42:43 <asiekierka> WELL, AngF can also be human-interpreted
15:44:11 <ais523> IRP is still going to be the best human-interpreted esolang around
15:45:23 <asiekierka> But Anglent can be BOTH human-interpreted AND computer-interpreted
15:45:37 <asiekierka> And possibly electromechanical-interpreted
15:47:01 <oklopol> anything that can be computer-interpreted can be human-interpreted
15:47:42 <asiekierka> Except Malbolge, because every human will give an error OR destroy his brain before finishing "Cat"
15:47:59 <asiekierka> And my esolang is specifically crafted to be human-interpreted
15:48:09 <oklopol> well what do you mean by that?
15:48:18 <oklopol> that when done on paper you don't need to erase much?
15:49:03 <asiekierka> As in, you move a black strip of paper attached to the board via cuts, there are 5 of these, each for a variable
15:49:13 <asiekierka> and output is done by writing it on a sheet of paper
15:49:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> <lifthrasiir> http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/xumul well, i'm designing this stupid language now. <-- how do you compute in it?
15:49:57 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: i'm writing "Command semantics" section now
15:50:41 <asiekierka> Ok, how can you have a 13.923568-bit-long integer
15:51:12 <ehird> yesssss, I perfected linux font rendering
15:51:19 <ehird> and I thought it couldn't be done!
15:51:33 <lifthrasiir> asiekierka: 1114111 + 1 becomes 0. So that's mod-1114112 integer with strange description.
15:51:49 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: well, it probably won't suit your tastes: it optimizes for typographical clarity over thinness, and also for high-DPI lcds
15:52:31 <ehird> Enable subpixel rendering. Disable autohinting. Use "Slight" hinting. Make a fontconfig block that conditions on font size >16 (uh, I'm not sure if it's points or pixels... Over 16 pixels, anyway) to set hinting to full
15:52:51 <ehird> == no blue/red edges on large fonts, but text fonts keep their full body
15:53:09 <asiekierka> AnMaster_ipv6: Well, uh, what's the point of Wheel then?
15:53:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> Disable autohinting. <-- I mentioned that before already...
15:53:16 <ehird> It cannot contain any entities. (%foo; etc.)
15:53:19 <ehird> lifthrasiir: &foo;
15:53:44 <asiekierka> Whirl, the one where you have 2 wheels you rotate
15:54:00 <lifthrasiir> ehird: it will only permit one of < > & " { ઼, since DOCTYPE is not permitted
15:54:08 <ehird> lifthrasiir: its' not %foo
15:54:28 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yeah -- with full hinting on everything, fonts all look pretty much the same and letters are very thin and undefined (esp. with subpixel)
15:54:33 <ehird> but with slight larger fonts get artifacts
15:54:41 <asiekierka> It uses 2 rings and it can also be easily human-interpreted
15:55:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, also I didn't say there was anything wrong with human interpretation. But rather I was wondering why you seemed so fixated on them..
15:55:06 <fizzie> lifthrasiir: He's trying to tell you that your spec says "any entities (%foo; etc.)" which is not right.
15:55:20 <fizzie> Since %foo; is not an entity.
15:55:29 <ehird> fizzie: I appoint you my translator.
15:55:45 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Sure, sec
15:56:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> nasm -w-orphan-labels -D__UNIXSDL__ -f elf -DELF -D__OPENGL__ -O99999999 -D__RELEASE__ -o video/makev16b.o video/makev16b.asm
15:56:36 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Cuz it's fun to make something that can be interpreted by human without pain
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15:57:19 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Hi from linux (so I can copypaste)
15:57:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, a bf-to-C compiler isn't too hard for example
15:57:26 <lifthrasiir> ehird: hmm, what is %foo; called then? i got confused while reading XML spec.
15:57:35 <mib_ueqe1k> lifthrasiir: %foo; is just plaintext in xml.
15:57:45 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, I just don't want to make an interpreter
15:58:01 <asiekierka> And I may even write a printing app too
15:58:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> asiekierka, AnMaster doesn't highlight me atm, only this nick does. So what is wrong with tab completion?
15:58:30 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Okay, here's how to set it up: Open $desktop_environment's font configuration panel, enable subpixel rendering, set hinting to Slight. Then, in ~/.fonts.conf or whathaveyou:
15:58:30 <mib_ueqe1k> <?xml version="1.0"?> <!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd"> <fontconfig> <match target="font"> <test name="pixelsize" compare="more"> <double>16</double> </test> <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign"> <const>hintslight</const> </edit>
15:58:35 <asiekierka> AnMaster_ipv6: Oh, didn't know about that
15:58:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Can you not set up highlighting so that AnMaster highlights as well?
15:59:12 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Note of course that any new font rendering settings take getting used to
15:59:12 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It sort of makes sense for nasm, as there the n in "-On" (when n>1) is the limit for the number of optimization passes to do (when making branch-offset-type instructions use less bytes), so if you want to specify "do it as many times as necessary", you need a ridiculous number.
15:59:27 <asiekierka> I'm wondering what other "draw" Esolang will I make
15:59:39 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Would you like a screenshot?
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16:00:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, since my screen is low dpi I couldn't use the same anyway
16:00:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Helps people that don't tab-complete to get to you, or people who just mention your nick in the middle of a sentence (which often implies lack of tab completion)
16:00:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, but that paste above was messy with no newlines
16:00:42 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: also, what dpi's your screen?
16:01:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> I can (and do) tab complete in the middle Deewiant. What sort of client is missing that?
16:01:14 <asiekierka> Any ideas on what easy-to-human-interpret esolangs are there?
16:01:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: I didn't say that clients don't support it, just that people don't always do it
16:01:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, and how do I calculate DPI now again..
16:01:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: IME people are much more likely to tab complete when addressing than anywhere else
16:01:56 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: "xdpyinfo | grep resolution"
16:02:08 <fizzie> Assuming your X knows the correct DPI.
16:02:44 <fizzie> A measuring tape can also help.
16:03:30 <fizzie> xdpyinfo reports "94x94 dots per inch" here; I'm not sure how well it handles this "two monitors, not exactly identical DPI" case.
16:03:37 <mib_ueqe1k> I find this 1680x1050 monitor smothering.
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16:03:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> screen on diagonal is more than my 50 cm ruler anyway
16:04:06 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: Hi. I solved linux font rendering, by the way.
16:04:17 <mib_ueqe1k> I'm going to be rich. And famous. Rich and famous.
16:04:20 <fizzie> You want either X or Y, so that you can divide it with that number of pixels.
16:05:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, no measure tape around here anyway that I can find
16:05:16 <fizzie> 87.44262295081967213116 dpi in the Y side, 87.15686274509803921570 in X.
16:05:17 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: your monitor box has something on it about dpi, probably
16:05:39 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: what's your solution?
16:05:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, monitor box? You think I store the original box it came in?
16:05:50 <ais523> also, this keyboard at the university on the computer next to me is crazy
16:06:05 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: subpixel + no autohinting + a fontconfig that conditions: pixelsize<=16 = slight hinting, >16 = full hinting
16:06:11 <mib_ueqe1k> I'm uploading a screenshot as-we-speaketh to show andreou .
16:06:29 <fizzie> "screen #0: dimensions: 2944x1280 pixels (795x345 millimeters)". That's rather far from correct, since the screen is not even actually rectangular.
16:06:30 <mib_ueqe1k> It is optimized for high-dpi LCDs, like I said.
16:06:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, anyway what would you recommend for this res then?
16:06:42 <ais523> it has three modifier keys in the bottom-left: one marked Ctrl, one marked with the Windows logo, Alt, and Option (all on the same key), and one marked with Alt, the Apple logo, and that weird loopy thing that you see on Apple keyboards sometimes
16:06:52 <ais523> yes, that means two keys are marked alt
16:07:05 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Ehm, anything's going to look ugly on that IMO, but my settings might work ok if you could get over your allergy of subpixel rendering
16:07:21 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: Windows logo on an Apple keyboard?
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16:07:29 <mib_ueqe1k> Also, that's the place of interest sign, aka the command-key.
16:07:29 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: it isn't an apple keyboard I don't think
16:07:37 <ais523> I don't think it's a windows keyboard either
16:07:44 <fizzie> ais523: It's probably trying to be some sort of "works for both windows and OS X" keyboard, with dubious results.
16:07:53 <ais523> fizzie: that's my guess too
16:08:08 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: I'll uploaderate this screenshot anyway, so you can imagine you have a high-dpi display and imagine drooling.
16:08:20 <ais523> still, even on OSX, would you have command and apple on the same key/
16:08:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> <fizzie> "screen #0: dimensions: 2944x1280 pixels (795x345 millimeters)". That's rather far from correct, since the screen is not even actually rectangular. <--- ?
16:08:38 <asiekierka> Anyway, i'm going to work on something else
16:09:05 <ais523> it's very confusing, anyway
16:09:14 <ais523> to start with I assumed they'd multiplexed alt and start
16:09:17 <ais523> so that tapping alt opened the start menu
16:09:22 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: Tux isn't very ... logo.
16:09:59 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: I have one 1280x1024 TFT in a 90-degree angle (so it's actually 1024x1280), and another 1920x1200 TFT the right way around, so the xdpyinfo dimensions reports the bounding box, even though there's a 1920x80 pixels of unusable area at the lower-left corner.
16:10:04 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: added "command semantics" section now.
16:10:35 <fizzie> Also I have no idea how it calculated the physical size and DPI since they differ.
16:11:01 <fizzie> It probably is separate, also, but there's some sort of combined value for non-multi-screen-aware apps.
16:11:13 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: no <input type=file>s are working
16:12:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, I don't have that no, but couldn't you scp it to the host?
16:12:36 <asiekierka> I'm thinking about an Esolang that uses only 2 shapes
16:12:39 <mib_ueqe1k> i could just use this "Shared Folders" thingy-bob-ma.
16:14:18 <mib_ueqe1k> great, i have to install this proprietary shitware to get the shared folders working
16:14:44 <mib_ueqe1k> OS type: Xorg version: -------- ------------ Unbuntu 7.04 7.2.0 Ubuntu 6.10 7.1.1 Ubuntu 6.06 7.0.0
16:14:49 <ais523> messing around with virtualisation has taught me one interesting fact
16:14:50 <mib_ueqe1k> fucking up to date support you got ther
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16:15:10 <ais523> which is that mounting a drive simultaneously from two operating systems tends not to work
16:15:40 <ais523> that's a pity, it ought to, it's certainly an expressible operation with obvious semantics
16:15:45 <ais523> just the OSes seem unable to handle it
16:15:53 <ais523> (I tried with Knoppix + Ubuntu, last time)
16:16:05 <mib_ueqe1k> well, they'd start fucking each other's files
16:16:27 <mib_ueqe1k> grrrr, I can't figure out how to get this out of the box
16:17:16 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: I don't know
16:17:23 <ais523> I always acessed it via domain name
16:17:49 <mib_ueqe1k> since bogons needs you to have a reverse dns for a static ip
16:17:55 <ais523> why do virtualisers care about which OS you're virtualising?
16:18:08 <mib_ueqe1k> ais523: so they can integrate to let you move stuff out of the box
16:18:57 <ais523> I like the low-tech qemu method, but unfortunately simultaneous mounts would make it so much better
16:20:04 <fizzie> Some of those cluster-use-designed file systems support multiple mounting, I think.
16:20:37 <fizzie> (So you can use them with something like the network-block-device, instead of using a NFS server.)
16:20:45 <fizzie> I don't think I usually associate NFS and simple together.
16:21:16 <fizzie> Although it's certainly a solution; most of the stuff at work and at the university works over NFS.
16:21:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> took about 5-10 minutes of reading up on it and then about 5 more minutes to set it up
16:21:49 <fizzie> Have you tried to use it with systems that have very different UID numberings?
16:22:37 <mib_ueqe1k> Screenshot.png 100% 728KB 727.9KB/s 00:00
16:22:57 <fizzie> It's certainly far from simple internally, even if package-maintainers or such have made it simple.
16:23:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> take a screenshot from OS X of the screenshot in the vm?
16:25:30 <fizzie> Speaking of network file systems, someone has managed to configure Samba on this NAS appliance box in a really strange way:
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ umask 077
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ echo x > foo
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ umask 0
16:25:32 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ echo x > bar
16:25:33 <fizzie> fis@eris:/e/video/misc$ ls -l
16:25:37 <fizzie> -rwxrwxrwx 1 root media 2 2009-03-27 07:57 bar
16:25:39 <fizzie> -rwx-wx-wx 1 root media 2 2009-03-27 07:57 foo
16:25:47 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: It would work but I'd have to crop it all after and fffffffffff.
16:26:02 <fizzie> There's a "force create mode = 777" (presumably to avoid any permission-related issues) but for some reason it fails to force the 'read' bits there.
16:27:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, well why would ftp work any better? Not that I have any ftp
16:27:50 <mib_ueqe1k> AnMaster_ipv6: I just wnt to know what the fuck is up.
16:28:00 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: You should've seen how it worked when I mounted with "-o nounix". I can't even describe it, it was that strange. (Making food now, semi-away.)
16:28:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, indeed it makes no sense since your current connection works
16:28:14 <ais523> fizzie: what does -o nounix do?
16:28:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> mib_ueqe1k, maybe you hit a bit pattern that cause a bug in the virtual ethernet card or something?
16:29:38 <fizzie> ais523: It's a quasi-documented flag for mount.cifs not to negotiate the CIFS unix extensions with the remote server.
16:29:48 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: use shar, it's like uuencode only more high-tech
16:29:48 <fizzie> It's not in the man page, but it's documented somewhere elsewhere.
16:30:59 <ais523> shar is a wrapper around uuencode
16:31:03 <mib_ueqe1k> /usr/share/themes/Human/gtk-2.0/gtkrc:82: Murrine configuration option "highlight_ratio" will be deprecated in future releases. Please use "highlight_shade" instead.
16:31:05 <ais523> with fun stuff like creating directories
16:31:18 <mib_ueqe1k> I get 3 of those errors every time something gtky happens
16:32:51 <mib_ueqe1k> elliott@elliott-desktop:~/Desktop$ scp Screenshot.png.uuencode ehird@208.78.103.223: ehird@208.78.103.223's password: Screenshot.png.uuencode 100% 1003KB 1.0MB/s 00:00
16:33:16 <ais523> mib_ueqe1k: your password's "Screenshot.png.uuencode"?
16:34:11 <ehird> Pasting 1MB of uuencode into a text field in a browser is EL DUMBO
16:34:30 <ais523> why didn't you just use imagebin.ca or somewhere like that?
16:34:39 <ehird> ais523: I told you -- just like scp, they hang
16:34:50 <ehird> so I uuencoded it --still hanged--
16:34:54 <ais523> does the same happen for small files?
16:34:59 <ehird> so now I'm pastie.org'ing the uuencoded, looking it up on my mac, uudecoding it
16:35:03 <ehird> and uploading it to imgur.com
16:35:07 <ehird> ais523: It's only 700kb
16:35:15 <ais523> yes, but I mean smaller still
16:35:20 <ais523> can you send a few bytes of binary, for instance?
16:35:43 <ehird> Almost certainly; I can load http pages.
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16:37:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, for example I had a problem some time ago with a bug in kernel ethernet drivers that made ssh and such work fine but caused massive rsync to hang
16:38:15 <ehird> This is fuckin' ridiculous. I'ma try the proprietary parallels crap
16:38:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> actually it wasn't ethernet driver, it was somewhere else in the stack
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16:45:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> it would be slow anyway, but have interesting properties
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16:46:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> for example you could SELECT to find next non-whitespace
16:46:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> allowing slowdown.b98 to be reasonably fast without tracking bounds
16:47:24 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I thought you meant SELECT the operator from INTERCAL
16:47:27 <ais523> it might be interesting, though
16:48:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, efunge has some crazy code to get a block from funge space somewhat like that..
16:49:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> also I have thought about ATHR (that was put on hold due to implementation issues)
16:50:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> to be "optimistic non-synced funge space" or something like that
16:50:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> it would make it more esoteric (becuase it would be a nightmare to program in)
16:51:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> basically, if ATHR wasn't loaded everything would be normal, but when you start an ATHR thread the way they interact change
16:52:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> and only one thread can own a specific funge space block at a time
16:55:20 * ehird tries to optimize jvm startup tim
16:55:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> it gets interesting when you change the semantics by marking a block as non-synced or something, each thread could modify it's local copy and what would happen when they were flushed back to funge space server would be interesting
16:56:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> and anyway, no changes would be visible right away
16:56:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> (but trying to access in that block would make it flush back usually, somewhat like cache lines)
16:57:32 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: sorry, I'm busy with something else, I haven't been paying attention
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17:03:08 <lifthrasiir> writing XUMUL spec is getting harder, should i specify how to parse invalid XML? :S
17:05:27 <ehird> lifthrasiir: no such thing
17:05:35 <ehird> the XML spec does not allow agents to process invalid xml
17:05:38 <ehird> if you do, you're breaking the spc
17:05:44 <ehird> (and also being sane, but xml isn't)
17:06:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, what about xml validators? they parse broken xml. But maybe they aren't agents. Or maybe the spec guys didn't know because they were _secret_ agents...
17:07:09 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: an xml validator is not an xml-processing UA
17:07:24 <ehird> also, validators report the first parsing error they see then give up
17:07:31 <ehird> thus, they comply with the spec
17:08:15 <ehird> http://www.lyx.org/images/about/insert_menu.png β WOW those window decorations are ugly
17:08:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> not all validators do. Some try to list more than one error
17:08:26 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: no, that's only post-parsing
17:08:32 <lifthrasiir> ehird: initial document should be valid, but in XUMUL the document is modified in-place and if we don't allow broken XML at least for a while it become uninteresting
17:08:42 <ehird> lifthrasiir: then it isn't xml
17:08:44 <ehird> so don't call it xml
17:08:48 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, ah when validating against DTD or such you mean?
17:10:02 <lifthrasiir> ehird: if i call such internal document processed by the program is "similar to XML but possibly invalid", are you right?
17:10:21 <ehird> lifthrasiir: what you have isn't an xml language, if it deals with invalidity
17:10:28 <ehird> it's a string-processing-language-that-starts-off-as-xml
17:10:59 <ehird> lifthrasiir: also, http://www.xsharp.org/
17:11:28 <fizzie> If you want to make it all-so-very-XML but allow self-modification, you might make the self-modification use a DOM-style API.
17:11:40 <ehird> they removed the freaky xml syntax
17:14:22 <ehird> http://martiansoftware.com/nailgun/background.html β ahh, this is exactly what i want
17:14:43 <ehird> last release 2005 >_<
17:14:59 <Ilari> Didn't XML spec allow parsers to attempt to continue parsing after first error trying to discover additional errors (but the parse has still failed)?
17:15:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, tell me when you read that bit above though
17:15:19 <ehird> they are forbidden from sending any more non-error data
17:15:25 <ehird> no thanks to tim bray
17:15:26 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: probably not for a while, or ever, tell me when I'm less busy
17:15:33 <lifthrasiir> okay, i agree to you ehird. i should look for another method so it can modify its own source and still remains valid.
17:15:41 <ehird> lifthrasiir: base something on the DOM ap
17:15:49 <ehird> except... less, you know, Java
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17:35:13 <ehird> Interface to Apple's QuickTime for using a camera, playing movie files, and creating movies.]]
17:35:15 <ehird> β processing.org
17:35:22 <ehird> Aw c'mon, you don't have to depend on QuickTime for that.
17:45:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, apple wouldn't be happy if they heard you say that
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18:00:44 <ehird> Wow. I managed to make DejaVu Serif look non-ugly.
18:00:48 <ehird> Thought I'd see the day, never/
18:06:47 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
18:09:20 <lifthrasiir> ehird: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/xumul okay, how about this?
18:09:37 <ehird> * It cannot contain any comments or CDATA sections. Just use normal text for it, since they will be ignored.
18:09:44 <ehird> * It doesn't use XML namespaces. foo:bar is just a normal identifier, not to mention xml:lang, xmlns:foo and so on.
18:09:48 <ehird> * It should be coded in ASCII-compatible encodings. This excludes, for example, UTF-16 encodings.
18:09:59 <ehird> right, but the point is that it's not xml
18:10:40 <ehird> A cell past the first cell, at offset -1, maps to 20th-to-the-infinity character. This means it doesn't actually map to any character in the original XML document, but if it is assigned, it is treated as like in the last character in XML document. For example, suppose that current document consists of <foo/>. If offset -1 is set to X, current document becomes <foo/> X, where the whitespace is actually infinitely long but treated as one whitespace. Simila
18:10:43 <ehird> rly if offset -2 is set to Y, current document becomes <foo/> Y X. This remains same to other out-of-bound offset, e.g. offset 10 for 199-character-long document, so if offset 0 is set to Z, current document becomes <foo/> Z Y X.
18:10:48 <ehird> Being able to set arbitrary text allows for non-xml
18:11:21 <lifthrasiir> Oops, that IS right. I probably change the rule.
18:13:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, do you know if Intel CPUs have different instruction dispatch units for SSE and x87?
18:13:57 <ehird> as in i don't know
18:14:00 <lifthrasiir> well, i thought that if the original document is <f/> and the program changes it to <f> < / f > it is correct, but i realized < and / cannot be separated.
18:14:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, becuase if they do, using long double for about half of the math you do and double for the rest, and -mfpmath=sse,387 might in effect double the throughput I think
18:16:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> lifthrasiir, I'd go the other way instead. Allowing full SGML, not a subset of xml
18:16:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> that way you can have short tags and other fun stuff
18:18:59 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: good idea! but sgmllib in python standard library is removed in python 3... :p
18:19:53 <lifthrasiir> (and sgml is quite hard to parse correctly iirc)
18:21:58 <lifthrasiir> oh, i found http://www.jclark.com/sp/. looks fine except that it's written in C++ :p (just kidding!)
18:23:23 <lifthrasiir> well, but anyway i have to modify the existing parser or write new parser from scratch since it have to manage character offset of callers
18:24:23 <lifthrasiir> that's one reason for using a subset of XML
18:26:09 <fizzie> If you just need to know where you are, you can always use expat and the CurrentByteIndex property. It might get a bit tricky with self-modification, though.
18:27:08 <fizzie> Personally I'd write an XML language so that the interpretation part would also be defined in terms of the DOM, as would the tree-modification. But whatever floats your XML-boat, I guess.
18:28:22 <ehird> shared folders works
18:28:26 <ehird> screenshot time vsoon
18:28:56 <ehird> xml operating on strings is stupid
18:29:00 <ehird> and xml operating on xml is, uh, xslt :P
18:29:10 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: i was adding all the strange things for keeping the name (XUMUL) but anyway thanks.
18:29:31 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, well, i was the doing the other the stuff
18:29:45 <lifthrasiir> i dislike xslt, and dislike xml operating on xml generally
18:29:50 <ehird> I'm the talking like the fizzie.
18:30:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> The Other... The Stuff! Soon at a lame tagline generator near you
18:30:08 <fizzie> ehird: XSLT doesn't really operate on the XSLT style-sheet itself, but maybe that's such a small difference.
18:30:19 <ehird> fizzie: you could make it
18:31:54 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: http://imgur.com/FLORQ.png. Some windows look better than others. Only looks good ona n LCD. May not look good on an LCD that isn't high-dpi. May cause shock from the font-rendering-differing effect thing that everyone gets. Do not use while pregnant.
18:32:01 <ehird> It resized it down.
18:32:31 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: no.
18:32:35 <ehird> your internet is broken.
18:32:45 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: I said
18:32:52 <ehird> so you can't see it properly
18:32:54 <ehird> so i'm rehosting it
18:33:13 <ehird> which, while having a shitty design, isn't designed as a shock-site hoster.
18:34:16 <ehird> Meh, it's broken now
18:35:00 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: http://omploader.org/vMWhnNw. Some windows look better than others. Only looks good ona n LCD. May not look good on an LCD that isn't high-dpi. May cause shock from the font-rendering-differing effect thing that everyone gets. Do not use while pregnant.
18:35:42 <ehird> Like everyone else apart from fizzie's upside down monitor.
18:36:10 <fizzie> I think the Nintendo DS Lite screen is BGR, but I could be remembering wrongly.
18:36:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I found BGR to be least bad when it comes to colour bleeding on this monitor...
18:36:40 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Have you looked at your subpixels?
18:36:46 <ehird> If they're not BGR, using BGR is efeating the point.
18:36:52 <ehird> Since it's not subpixel any more.
18:37:13 <ehird> You have to use the pixel order of your monitor.
18:37:17 <ehird> That's the whole point.
18:37:21 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: get a magnifying glass
18:37:39 <ehird> Anyway, your monitor is RGB.
18:37:42 <ehird> Nobody manufactures anything else.
18:37:55 <ehird> Apart from nintendo based on fizzie-rumours.
18:38:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, tried with magnifying glass, still can't see the sub pixels
18:38:37 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: The only leakage in my screenshot is: the Avant Window Navigator body text, the Fishbowl monospaced tagline, and ever so slightly on the fishbowl body text
18:40:14 <fizzie> The fishbowl text is something I did notice to be a bit bluey-red-y. I'm not sure how much it would annoy.
18:40:54 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Either your eyes are so good that you could be making a lot of money just using them now, or you're sitting an inch away from your screen, or your monitor is one of the 3 non-RGB subpixel orders in the world, or it's a CRT.
18:41:03 <fizzie> It's rather horrible in the sideways-up monitor, though.
18:41:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> actually as far as I can make out, sub pixels are BRG here, or possible RBG
18:41:18 <ehird> That doesn't exist.
18:41:35 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Are you sure you don't have a CRT.
18:41:58 <ehird> fizzie: IMO, the avant one is much worse than fishbowl
18:42:03 <ehird> and I browsed for a while and it wasn't too botherating
18:42:16 <ehird> fizzie: If you want to make it use the full hinting to fixerate that some more, you can ++ the font size above 16px
18:42:41 <ehird> You're just a hallucinating kind of person then
18:43:02 <fizzie> The subpixel order should be rather easy to see if you do (in Gimp in 800%-zoom or something) a file which has a single-pixel vertical line of alternating blue and red pixels, and then look at it at native size, with the magnifying glass or otherwise.
18:43:18 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: If you don't have subpixels of course you see bleeding.
18:43:22 <fizzie> At least here it's very easy to see which pixels (red or blue) are on the left side and which on the right.
18:43:27 <ehird> But really I don't think so.
18:43:35 <ehird> It's probably your monitor's DPI being awfully low.
18:43:50 <ehird> Here's a nickel; go buy a decent monitor.
18:44:18 * ehird explodes with laughter
18:44:45 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_(United_States_coin)
18:44:54 <ehird> Do you know _anything_ about non-Swedish things?
18:47:12 <ehird> lifthrasiir: I explode literally quite often
18:47:15 <ehird> there's a little me inside of me
18:47:24 <ehird> and it grows to be the size of me when I explode leaving only the little m
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18:47:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, not my fault they use funny names when they mean "5 cent coin"
18:47:33 <ehird> you may see this as a metaphor for man babies
18:47:46 <fizzie> I assume you have that TFT plugged in with a DVI cable, though? How much would the analog-blur-effect affect that sort of stuff, anyway?
18:47:59 <oklopol> i misunderstood ehird too, for a sec, thought nickel was slang for "tip"
18:48:07 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: geez
18:48:12 <oklopol> then i realized maybe you just meant nickel
18:48:17 <ehird> oklopol: yeah but you're detuned from reality in a funny way, I mean it's oklopolific
18:48:44 <oklopol> lifthrasiir: you still do?
18:48:46 <ais523> isn't nickel the material they're mostly made of?
18:49:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, also I have tested this monitor with both dvi and vga cables before (on a different computer. Saw no difference
18:49:39 <fizzie> "75 % Copper, 25 % Nickel" says the linked page.
18:49:54 <fizzie> Well, except the nickel-free nickels of ww2.
19:07:01 <Ilari> AFAIK, one of the most signaficant sources of analog blurring is the video card.
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19:10:42 <Ilari> Also, isn't there both Analog DVI and Digital DVI (some systems might support both)?
19:14:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, so what did you think about the idea for fungespace coherency?
19:14:37 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: very busy atm, I'll talk to you later
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19:37:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, btw efunge should be run on R12B-5 to be mycology compatible, I believe (from changelog reading) it will break in 0-byte handling under R13A (that is an alpha version), and for now I'll just say R13 isn't supported until I have time to test R13 and fix any bugs there.
19:38:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.6.5 [source] [64-bit] [async-threads:0] [hipe] [kernel-poll:false]
19:39:25 <Deewiant> So you just have to know what the major version numbers mean? :-P
19:40:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, you know because the tarball you downloaded was called otp_src_R12B-5.tar.gz or such
19:40:19 <Deewiant> No I don't because I didn't download a tarball
19:40:29 <Deewiant> I have programs which do these things for me
19:40:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, ok I think it is the version of the application kernel that matters (erlang application)
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19:42:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway in R13 all console IO will be UTF-8, previously it was all ISO-latin-1.
19:42:57 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, and there is no way around it. Erlang is semi-closed-world style.
19:43:23 <Deewiant> Sure there is, you can decode/encode UTF
19:44:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, no, because R13's console IO code will throw exceptions on non-UTF it seems
19:44:38 <Deewiant> Yees, but if you want to output non-UTF you just encode it into UTF first
19:46:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway erlang's console IO will output most non-printable as ^@ or whatever when running in interactive mode. This is a feature (again can't be turned off).
19:46:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh and interactive mode is one valid way to start efunge in
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19:50:01 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: and you whine about closed world systems
19:50:23 <ehird> at least fully closed systems let you do things flexibly from inside
19:50:54 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, but now that I started I have to bite the bullet :P
19:52:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> "ASCII English text, with CRLF, CR, LF line terminators"
19:53:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> I thought the file was in LF and wanted to convert to CR
19:55:41 <Deewiant> I'm amused by the fact that efunge of all interpreters doesn't support t
19:56:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> $ ./efunge ~/src/cfunge/trunk/tests/refc-invalid-deref.b98
19:57:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway I just pushed a fix in efunge for form feed handling
19:58:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway the threading in erlang is async and message passing
19:58:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I feel supporting t would be wrong in it
19:59:01 <Deewiant> How is it more wrong than supporting any other feature of Befunge-98
19:59:27 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, because it doesn't allow me to take advantage of the message passing concurrency in erlang
19:59:30 <ehird> Deewiant: quick, make pervasive use of t in mycology
19:59:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: And my point was, neither does the rest of Befunge :-P
20:00:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, ATHR will be better. I guess I can have a lock step compat mode that sends a token around to support t
20:01:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> and remember, efunge isn't about speed, as long as I don't have to wait too long I'm happy with efunge
20:01:21 <Deewiant> efunge seems decently fast to me
20:01:32 <Deewiant> Takes a while to shutdown but I guess that can't be helped
20:01:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, indeed it can't, it is because erlang need to stop internal processes
20:01:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> well you could bypass it, but then I couldn't send back exit code either afaik
20:02:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm efunge trunk locks up on jumpwrap.b98 for some reason, will have to debug that
20:03:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: efunge is way faster than pyfunge FWIW
20:03:30 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well it is decent if you use ERL_COMPILER_OPTIONS='[inline,native,{hipe,[o3]}]' make clean all
20:03:34 <Deewiant> Over twice as fast including the shutdown time
20:03:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, it is horribly slow without using native/hipe
20:04:08 * Deewiant checks what AnMaster_ipv6 thinks is 'horribly slow'
20:04:20 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I don't like waiting 30 seconds for mycology
20:04:51 <Deewiant> I see almost no speed difference, did I muck something up
20:05:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> oh ok, supervisor-tree is known buggier, a feature branch for ATHR work
20:05:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, if there is spurious output at start/end (or in middle) in that branch I will just point you to trunk for now
20:06:47 <Deewiant> Speed difference is around 0.1s
20:06:59 <Deewiant> Dominated by the 1+s it takes to shutdown
20:07:05 <Deewiant> Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.6.5 [source] [64-bit] [smp:4] [async-threads:0] [hipe] [kernel-poll:false]
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20:08:03 <Deewiant> Hmm, pyfunge doesn't have a way of disabling fingerprints so it's not fairly benchmarkable
20:08:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, here it is 2 seconds vs. 7 seconds (trunk) and 3 seconds vs. 14 seconds in the supervisor branch
20:08:15 <Deewiant> But then efunge doesn't either
20:08:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Both around 1.5s here in supervisor
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20:08:35 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I tried that, it crashes :-P
20:08:42 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: ImportError: No module named fp_
20:08:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well supervisor branch can make use of smp
20:08:58 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I also tried just specifying 'standard' but it didn't seem to change anything
20:09:00 <lifthrasiir> hmm i didn't check for null argument... well.
20:09:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> and the message passing overhead may make it slower
20:09:08 -!- jix has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
20:09:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: 'Edit source' isn't an option
20:09:32 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: it will disable other fingerprints (e.g. STRN) except for standard one. you mean it wasn't?
20:09:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, well just comment out in the listing of fingerprints in src/efunge_fingerindex.erl
20:09:37 -!- tombom has joined.
20:09:59 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Still runs HRTI, TOYS etc
20:10:10 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Oh right, by standard you mean the Cat's Eye ones
20:10:20 <Deewiant> There's just no way of disabling them all
20:10:48 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I would've expected a per-fingerprint list and not a category list :-)
20:10:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, in efunge branch overhead is rather large, thus I won't add it, adding a option for tracing led to a 0.5 second slowdown or so when I tested
20:11:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: You don't need to branch at every instruction, it's just a check when you do ( or )
20:11:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> so for tracing, you should uncomment the relevant line and recompile
20:11:40 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: i should have done so, but didn't do yet :p
20:12:09 <Deewiant> It's not like being easily benchmarkable is what Funge interpreters should aspire to...
20:15:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Why would it reflect
20:16:17 <Deewiant> Anyway, I guess the interpreters in current speed order are: cfunge, RC/Funge-98, CCBI, efunge, pyfunge, Language::Befunge
20:17:16 <Deewiant> Although I'm a bit hesitant to include RC/Funge-98 in that list since it still uses stuff like gets() :-P
20:17:23 <Deewiant> It's full of buffer overflow bugs
20:17:29 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: i pushed the version contains --disable-fprint option, and it takes 1.7s for mycology with psyco enabled
20:17:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, anyway I recommend efunge trunk atm for stability, the cool new stuff in the supervisor branch is so far only under the hood and it is buggy
20:18:12 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Around 1.7s for me too
20:19:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, I fixed two bugs the last few minutes that have not been ported to the supervisor branch yet
20:19:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Their speed is about the same for me, 0.6s of CPU time and 1.6 in total
20:23:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, btw for make in efunge -j have absolutely no effect
20:28:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, about speed there above btw... Language::Befunge is slow?
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20:31:16 <ais523> and this time, I'm not busy
20:31:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: By your standards, definitely. :-P
20:31:31 <ais523> although I've been awake for 28 hours straight, so may not be coherent
20:31:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, heh, well I was talking about funge space coherency protocol before
20:33:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> it might solve the issue I had with implementing ATHR, along with defining that bounds may not be exact (even for wrapping purposes, when other threads writes cause bounds to extend) if ATHR is loaded and a sync instruction have not been executed
20:33:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> it will always see it's own writes in a coherent way
20:33:44 <ais523> how could bounds be wrong for wrapping purposes?
20:33:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: It takes 12s on Mycology here
20:33:59 <ais523> oh, if one thread writes to another's Lahey-line
20:34:07 <ais523> beyond where it would have bounced
20:34:07 <Deewiant> So yes, it's by far the slowest
20:34:10 <ais523> and yes I remember ATHR
20:34:15 <ais523> Deewiant: which implementation?
20:34:29 <Deewiant> ais523: Language::Befunge, the Perl one.
20:34:44 <ais523> ah, I've been meaning to mess with that
20:34:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes, I know. :-P
20:34:53 <ais523> is it on cpan, or does it need to be downloaded from elsewhere?
20:35:12 * ais523 starts CPAN invocations
20:35:34 <ais523> $ sudo chown -R ais523:ais523 ~/.cpan
20:35:52 <ais523> $ cpan -i Language::Befunge
20:35:53 <Deewiant> What, you normally have it root:root? :-P
20:36:08 <ais523> Deewiant: no, bits keep on ending up root:root by accident anyway
20:36:27 <ais523> the chown is a bit of black magic for using cpan I developed, it seems to work
20:36:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> I never install software outside home without using my distro's package manager..
20:36:55 <fizzie> ~/.cpan is not very outside home.
20:36:57 <ais523> oh, I don't install outside home or /usr/local without package manager
20:37:01 <ais523> but this is inside home
20:37:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> I don't use /usr/local, well on freebsd the package manager uses that
20:37:26 <ais523> besides, cpan is a package manager, just a confusing and buggy one
20:37:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> but on linux my /usr/local is just some empty directories
20:37:46 <ais523> on Debian-based systems, /usr is for the package manager, except /usr/local is guaranteed package-manager free
20:38:05 <ais523> so it's a good place to test things like my C-INTERCAL packaging
20:38:25 <fizzie> I have some systems-administrationary custom scripts in /usr/local/sbin/ it seems.
20:38:33 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well *bsd is: / and /usr are for base system /usr/local for ports collection (the package manager)
20:39:26 <ais523> $ perldoc Language::Befunge
20:39:37 <ais523> I had to switch to root and back though as it was trying to install man pages
20:39:44 <ais523> then I needed another chown to clear up
20:43:13 <ais523> "Can't locate UNIVERSAL/require.pm in @INC"
20:43:19 <ais523> I'm having CPAN problems, as usual
20:45:16 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: you have to
20:45:20 <ehird> the alternatives are far worse
20:45:27 <ehird> i.e., either no perl libraries, or chasing 5 billion dependencies
20:45:31 <ehird> and yes, there are always that many dependencies
20:45:36 <ehird> perlists are promiscuous
20:45:42 <ais523> ehird: even with cpan, you have no perl libraries and are chasing 5 billion dependencies
20:45:55 <ehird> ais523: except you can get cpan to chase them for you
20:46:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> usually I just install the relevant part using my distro's package manager
20:46:23 <ais523> ehird: it usually gets about half
20:46:26 <ais523> which is an improvement, I suppose
20:46:38 <ehird> grr, one thing that irritates me about jvm conventions: the package convention is com.foo.app, so you _need_ a domain
20:47:09 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: I don't own that domain.
20:47:22 <ehird> lifthrasiir: You must use a domain you own.
20:48:18 <lifthrasiir> what if java package name can contain URN or so? urn.uuid_6e8bc430_9c3a_11d9_9669_0800200c9a66?
20:49:15 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster_ipv6: of course, but i said "what if" :p
20:50:41 <fizzie> It's not a "need" since it is just a convention.
20:51:14 <lifthrasiir> the convention makes the need to comply with.
20:51:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> <lifthrasiir> the convention makes the need to comply with. <-- wut?
20:52:05 <lifthrasiir> i mean that widespread convention becomes de facto standard by itself
20:53:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, what about relative question rates. That is relative % ending in question marks to all lines said by that person. Combine ehird and tusho btw
20:53:39 <fizzie> Admittedly the convention is documented in the Java Language Specification, so it's a rather strong convention.
20:53:47 <fizzie> "You form a unique package name by first having (or belonging to an organization that has) an Internet domain name, such as sun.com."
20:54:44 <ais523> yay, Language::Befunge is working
20:54:53 <ais523> I only had to chase up 7 or 8 of the dependencies by hand
20:55:02 <fizzie> I should probably write some sort of framework for log-analysis. But I guess I can quickly hack that relative-question-percentage for you, if it's that interesting.
20:55:12 <ais523> cpan isn't really a package manager, although it acts like one
20:55:18 <ais523> it doesn't have an uninstall feature, for one
20:55:19 <Deewiant> ais523: Is your cpan broken or something?
20:55:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, since I talk so much I believe the numbers mentioned yesterday are not really relevant
20:55:44 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, it tries to write outside my home dir and errors, then on the next run decides either the last one worked so it won't try again, or the last one didn't work so it won't try again
20:56:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ais523> it doesn't have an uninstall feature, for one <-- crappy. I won't use it then certainly
20:56:24 <Deewiant> Sounds like you have it configured somehow incorrectly
20:56:25 <ais523> hmm... which fingerprint is REFC?
20:56:41 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: it makes it a bit hard to run Perl programs as a result
20:57:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, no: gentoo portage have lots of perl packages as gentoo packages that are properly install/uninstallable
20:57:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> the recommended way is to write gentoo packages for any missing
20:57:32 <ais523> Ubuntu package the bits of cpan they depend on, but I think they don't do it automatedly
20:57:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, called g-cpan before, but replaced with something else now
20:57:48 <ais523> talking about Perlists about the gentoo cpan thing, apparently it doesn't work in every case, or something
20:57:56 <ais523> but then, neither does cpan
20:58:19 <Deewiant> cpan's worked just fine for me on Linux
20:58:23 <Deewiant> Windows is another story, of course
20:58:52 <ais523> Deewiant: does Mycology test deep y as a pick instruction?
20:59:12 <ais523> I can't find the bit in the output where it reports on it
20:59:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> thus every file outside /home /etc /var /usr/portage /root and a few more places has to belong to a package in the distro package manager IMO
20:59:55 <ais523> it's nice to have a second /usr tree for testing things that shouldn't be interfered with by the manager
21:00:19 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: what if you're writing a package manager yourself?
21:00:34 <ais523> or just an install/uninstall script designed to work in a /usr tree as well as in the home dir
21:01:02 <ais523> anyway, my jqbef98 seems to pass latest mycology
21:01:04 <Deewiant> ais523: chroot into $HOME/foo which contains usr?
21:01:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well the latter makes no sense, it is up to package manager to handle it, it should be trivial to write a package, if it isn't then the package manager is too hard to use.
21:01:49 <Deewiant> ais523: Hmm, where'd you get jqbef98, I just grabbed the example from the perldoc and used that
21:01:50 <AnMaster_ipv6> for gentoo I usually need a 5-10 lines long file, and 5 minutes of work.
21:01:53 <ais523> hmm... no wait, jqbef98 fails mycouser I think
21:02:01 <ais523> Deewiant: from cpan, it installed as part of the package
21:02:10 <Deewiant> ais523: Didn't for me. Oh well.
21:03:04 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Here is top-20 of question-%s for everyone who's spoken more than 1000 lines during 2006-2008. (Without the filtering there's quite an amount of 100%s.) β http://zem.fi/~fis/q.txt
21:04:07 <fizzie> This time it was "contains a ? anywhere".
21:04:34 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Number 44, with 3.2 %.
21:04:53 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: He talks even more than you, after all.
21:05:15 <GregorR> "With Jergen's, who needs the sun?"
21:05:21 <GregorR> Sometimes commercials are immeasurably stupid.
21:05:48 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: you're cheating, you're asking questions without a question mark at the end
21:06:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yes I started that recently<ascii code 63>
21:06:13 <ais523> actually, I often typo ? as /, so I'm cheating just as much
21:06:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: That wasn't a question.
21:07:10 <ais523> err... that has too many forward slashes
21:07:15 <ais523> shouldn't some of them be escaped?
21:08:07 <ais523> and in Thutu, it would be /^s/$/=\//
21:08:37 <SimonRC> ais523: how does the power of thutu compare to that of sed?
21:08:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> ;ais523, why did you think I didn't use sed;337**,@
21:08:52 <ais523> SimonRC: they're both turing-complete
21:09:27 <ais523> thutu needs to be wimpmoded to really be useful, although it's a relatively nice language, I should detarpit it and remove some of the insanities
21:09:36 <ais523> and I may end up with a language that's worth using
21:09:53 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: Perl sets the standard for regular expressoins
21:10:01 <ais523> anyway, I'm going home now, bye everyone
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21:10:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> I didn't use pcre, I used s syntax, which means it is sed when it comes to me...
21:10:37 <Deewiant> "s syntax" is present in Perl.
21:21:53 <lifthrasiir> once perl added (?...) extension syntax to regexp, and perl 5.10 adds (*...) "verb". i wonder perl 5 will ever add (+...).
21:24:36 <lifthrasiir> < is for lookbehind, = is for positive and ! is for negative.
21:25:15 <lifthrasiir> i.e. do not backtrack into this parenthese
21:25:58 <lifthrasiir> once Larry Wall criticizes this as a bad huffman coding... :p
21:27:12 <lifthrasiir> well, perl 6 has a new regexp syntax which shortens such constructs which is used quite often but too long to type
21:27:47 <lifthrasiir> but i still think perl 6 showed new dimension of esoteric language... heh
21:30:54 <ehird> 20:56 AnMaster_ipv6: <ais523> it doesn't have an uninstall feature, for one <-- crappy. I won't use it then certainly
21:30:59 <ehird> CPANPLUS has uninstall
21:31:07 <ehird> 20:55 fizzie: I should probably write some sort of framework for log-analysis. But I guess I can quickly hack that relative-question-percentage for you, if it's that interesting.
21:31:11 <ehird> Log analysis framework? Count me in.
21:31:29 <ehird> I was hoping for some micro-optimization help.
21:31:40 <Deewiant> Wouldn't AnMaster be the one to ask? :-P
21:31:45 <ehird> also, 28% of sgeo is quetsions
21:31:54 <ehird> I predicted a large % all along
21:31:55 <ehird> since like last year
21:32:11 <ehird> Deewiant: no, ais523's microoptimizations give a better speed boost and are less obnoxiously _posix_fuseless
21:32:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Can cpanplus uninstall stuff cpan has installed?
21:33:13 <ehird> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/04/03/sleep-may-prepare-you-for-tomorrow-by-dissolving-todays-neural-connections/ β Humans need concurrent gc
21:33:39 <Deewiant> ehird: What are you micro-optimizing?
21:33:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, I may still be able to help microoptimising
21:33:59 <ehird> Deewiant: I haven't written it yet, but it'll only be ~100 lines -- a tripcode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripcode) cracker
21:34:16 <ehird> there's a few but I have some microoptimization ideas & I want to take advantage of multi-core systems
21:34:42 <ehird> ("For example, 2channel translates <, >, and " to <, >, and "." β I love perverse edge-case programming errors becoming defacto standards)
21:35:47 <ehird> Slereah_: Wat is greater than 2channel?
21:35:54 <Slereah_> Oh, it's a discussion about tripcode
21:36:08 <Slereah_> It seemed weird to see 2ch in that window
21:37:17 <Slereah_> Really, most of the time, you don't even need a tripcode cracker
21:37:26 <Slereah_> Most people use insecure tripcodes
21:37:45 <Slereah_> There's a list of all letter-based tripcodes
21:37:46 <ehird> Yes, well, it's a fun thing to optimize.
21:38:27 <Slereah_> Not to mention the very common tripcodes :o
21:38:38 <ehird> I wonder what the character set of crypt() output is
21:38:49 <ehird> I don't think it's all printable ascii chars, there's no space for instance
21:39:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, simple, use the SSE8 PWCJIS to convert to JIS to begin with
21:39:27 <Slereah_> It's probably something like ASCII from 33 to 126
21:39:39 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: SHIFT jis. And the article then goes on to say that 4chan doesn't do the shift-jis conversion, so it's probably not worth bothering.
21:40:01 <Deewiant> Hooray for de facto standards.
21:40:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, anyway SSE is so feature bloated in recent versions it wouldn't surprise me..
21:40:10 <Slereah_> If you want to learn about tripcodes, you can go to /soc/
21:40:19 <ehird> Slereah_: I used to frequent there ages ago
21:40:26 <ehird> Okay, so there's 48398230717929318249 unique tripcode outputs. I think.
21:40:48 <ehird> Now to figure out what -illion that is.
21:41:28 <Slereah_> 48.398.230.717.929.318.249 -> 48 quintillions
21:41:31 <Deewiant> 48 398 230 717 929 318 249 so... yeah
21:41:45 <Deewiant> Assuming you're US, of course.
21:41:58 <Deewiant> Or modern UK, or whatever crap.
21:42:21 <ehird> oklopol: it's the world wide system now
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21:42:28 <ehird> quintillions. lovely
21:42:51 <oklopol> ehird: so is english, and it's retarded too.
21:43:13 <Deewiant> According to Wikipedia, besides English-speaking countries only Brazil and Wales use the short scale
21:43:21 <ehird> Hmm, I wonder what the best way to utilize multiple cores is
21:43:29 <ehird> maybe start thread 1 at 0, thread 2 at (half of tripspace)
21:43:34 <Deewiant> And 9 others use the short scale + milliard
21:43:41 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: million
21:43:50 <oklopol> Deewiant: your facts are nicer than ehird'sa
21:43:56 <ehird> SimonRC: Crack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripcode s. Learnt to read :P
21:44:20 <ehird> Slereah_: Nobody says milliard.
21:44:28 <Deewiant> Million, milliard, billion, billiard, trillion, trilliard, etc.
21:44:40 <ehird> Deewiant: You don't count as a person :|
21:44:40 <SimonRC> Deewiant: where are you from?
21:44:50 <Deewiant> oklopol: Sure, it goes all the way up.
21:45:24 <ehird> SimonRC: keyspace is 72057594037927936 actually
21:45:35 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, well vigintillion already sounds silly so meh...
21:45:35 <ehird> which is a fucktonion
21:46:52 <oklopol> unde- and duode- are used to get the ones before it, but i'm a bit fuzzy on the details, not having any idea where those come from.
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21:49:16 <oklopol> well yes the sensible scale, naturally
21:49:27 <oklopol> it was a question, where are the names from
21:50:58 <oklopol> YOU KNOW COULD'VE BEEN GREEK... OR JAPANESE
21:51:01 <ehird> "Take the second and third characters of the string obtained by appending H.. to the end of the input. "
21:51:05 <ehird> I love how meaningless this is.
21:51:07 <ehird> It's a clusterfuck
21:51:22 <Deewiant> oklopol: Except that it isn't. :-P
21:52:04 <Deewiant> E.g. decillion = 10^6^10 where the latter 10 is from Latin decem, 10.
21:52:21 <oklopol> well i don't know latin, so a bit hard to know; i guess i have to admit it was the only possible choice tho
21:52:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, the H.. is for handling very short strings I guess
21:52:35 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yes, but why 'H..'
21:52:45 <oklopol> i guessed from oktaavi -> nooni -> desimi
21:53:05 <oklopol> (octave, octave+1 -interval, octave+2 -interval)
21:53:24 <oklopol> also could've guessed from simply deci i guess
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21:55:26 <Deewiant> oklopol: I'd say the most obvious is that it's quadrillion and not tetrillion or something.
21:55:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=tripe
21:55:59 <ehird> It shouldn't have been called that because that's not funny.
21:56:00 <Slereah_> It is called $Bec0e&,ec&e%w(B :3
21:56:04 <oklopol> Deewiant: you mean it's obvious it is the former, or that based on that, latin is obvious?
21:56:17 <oklopol> i don't see why quadrillion is more obvious than tetrillion
21:56:20 <Deewiant> oklopol: Based on that, Latin is obvious.
21:56:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: I tried to figure some sort of oerjan-class pun related to tripecode and the % character, but couldn't.
21:56:33 <oklopol> not to me, i don't know latin.
21:57:37 <Deewiant> oklopol: Greek tetra-, tetr-: the number four as a prefix
21:57:48 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: Given that it's in a file, I couldn't really justify the "head -n 20" in q.txt, so http://zem.fi/~fis/q.txt now has the complete list of everyone who's spoken >1000 lines in those logs.
21:58:07 <Deewiant> oklopol: No, four in Japanese is shi or yon.
21:58:18 <ehird> fizzie: YOU FORGOT TO MERGE ZUFF AND EHIRD
21:58:20 <ehird> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
21:58:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, for bsmnt you should count "..." as a qustion mark
21:58:32 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: you too.
21:59:24 <fizzie> It's a bit crappy in other ways too. There's also oklopol/oklofok, curiously next to each other; very consistent question-percentage there.
21:59:34 <fizzie> Same goes for Pikhq/pikhq.
21:59:50 <ehird> clearly we need the Loggitude framework
22:00:16 <fizzie> I had somewhere a log-parsing script that combinated nicks based on hostmasks, nick similarity wrt. edit-distance, and some other random heuristics, but I seem to have lost it.
22:00:28 <Deewiant> So fungot /does/ ask questions.
22:00:28 <fungot> Deewiant: 18. some hard-boiled things can be cracked." he unfolded the paper as he spoke, ' is the fnord" ( making little marks on the ground as she spoke, and rested his head against her shoulder. " what size will you be?"
22:00:49 <fizzie> Hah, that's a question.
22:00:57 <oklopol> lament: you should put that on a t-shirt
22:01:19 <ehird> $ loggitude -e'map { my @lines = search(-from => $_); my @questions = filter { /?$/ } @lines; something to output percentage here } @users'
22:02:39 <ehird> anyway I'm writing it so fu
22:03:10 <ehird> sure, I just need to get my log-scraper done
22:03:21 <ehird> then anyone can analyze #esoteric logs with two invocations:
22:03:33 <ehird> $ perl download-esoteric-logs.pl
22:03:39 <ehird> $ perl loggitude.pl -e'...'
22:03:54 <ehird> (download-esoteric-logs.pl will update your logs if you already have some, btw, it only downloads what you need)
22:04:05 <ehird> (also rename to YYYY-MM-DD and changes times to UTC)
22:04:17 <ehird> (I have the renaming part done and some of the downloading)
22:05:52 <ehird> Separate scripts for separate tasks.
22:07:00 <fizzie> Yay, I have gotten recomputed 34/39ths of the Octave stuff I messed up last night.
22:07:29 <ehird> fizzie how come all you ever do is awesome computing processing stuff
22:07:35 <ehird> i'm a kid and I don't have that much fun :<
22:08:06 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: It didn't used to.
22:08:08 <ehird> Used to be git-foo.
22:08:13 <ehird> Anyway, all git operations are linked
22:08:22 <ehird> They all manipulate the same datastore in much the same ways
22:08:31 <ehird> But downloading logs vs processing logs are entirely separable tasks
22:08:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: It didn't used to. <-- used or use<q>
22:09:03 <fizzie> It's the reporting bias; I do not much advertise the times when I clean up the sewage input pipe in the bathroom, or other pleasant things like that.
22:09:03 <ehird> And if I required strict adherence to my philosophies I'd never use anything.
22:09:14 <ehird> fizzie: do it, so I can feel better about myself
22:09:41 <fizzie> Will try to remember to.
22:10:16 <ehird> Fuck the JVM. Fuck Parrot. I'm compiling all my VM-langs to Infocom's Z-machine in future: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-machine
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22:10:52 <fizzie> ZBefunge was probably the first Befunge interp I used, actually.
22:11:08 <ehird> zbefunge compiles befunge to z machine code?
22:11:20 <fizzie> No, it's just an interpreter written to work in a Z machine.
22:11:23 <Deewiant> No, it's a befunge interpreter written in Z-Machine code
22:11:31 <fizzie> Also Befunge-93 only and so on.
22:12:10 <fizzie> Seems that there's a ZedFunge which does Funge-98.
22:12:29 <ehird> Deewiant: New mycology contender :P
22:13:18 <fizzie> At least ZBefunge's debugger had a nice text-based view of where the IP was going.
22:13:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> <Deewiant> That's the crap one IIRC <-- thought that was either RC/Funge or FBBI
22:14:02 <ehird> I know you dislike the code, but it works, doesn't it?
22:14:05 <ehird> It passes Mycology?
22:14:12 <Deewiant> It uses static buffers and gets()
22:14:13 <ehird> I think comparing RC/Funge to FBBI is giving MKRY a great disservice
22:14:16 <Deewiant> It'd be trivial to make it segfault.
22:14:45 <Deewiant> It's good as long as you don't feed it too much data :-P
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22:15:22 <ehird> a world wide network of toaster
22:16:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, seems ehird is a RCS fanboy for unknown reason...
22:16:48 <ehird> The code sucks. I agree.
22:17:05 <ehird> I just don't like how you continually say that RC/Funge sucks and MKRY can't implement befunge properly etc etc
22:17:14 <ehird> Why not invite him in and say that?
22:18:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, add some tests to mycology that make rc/funge segfault?
22:18:31 <ehird> 22:18 AnMaster_ipv6: if he is interested he would be in here
22:18:31 <ehird> 22:18 AnMaster_ipv6: in befunge in general I mean
22:18:44 <ehird> he'd be in here if he's interested in talking about the topics we talk about in here with the people who are in here at the times he would come in here
22:18:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster_ipv6: He might just increase the buffer sizes ;-P
22:20:48 <oklopol> well mostly it was a typo.
22:21:01 <oklopol> static buffers are against my face.
22:21:08 <oklopol> Deewiant: well there was one
22:21:22 <Deewiant> The sentence is perfectly parseable as-is
22:21:42 <oklopol> that's actually pretty good
22:21:53 <Deewiant> Or just, you know, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bugger?jss=0
22:22:01 <oklopol> i thought like, you know, buggers
22:22:01 <Deewiant> "an annoying or troublesome thing"
22:22:17 <oklopol> but with that meaning i'm not sure it made that much sense
22:22:28 <ehird> I'LL BUGGER YOU IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN
22:22:36 <fizzie> But the hedgehog can never be buggered at all.
22:22:43 <oklopol> Deewiant: yeah well okay sure
22:22:54 <oklopol> i guess i have to agree my fingers outsmarted me again.
22:23:54 <Deewiant> http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/?q=owtte
22:24:52 <ehird> Deewiant: what gfx card did you say you had again
22:25:23 <fizzie> The lack of comment makes me wonder if AnMaster_ipv6 got the Pratchett reference. Although I guess it's not very commentable.
22:25:24 <ehird> I'm trying to get the best passively cooled one I can from the limited choice because I can't be fucked to mess around with coolers and shit
22:26:12 <fizzie> I have in these machines a passively cooled GeForce 7600-something and a 8600-something, but I am in no way recommending these, and it's very much not bleeding-edge high-performance 3D-powerfest.
22:26:14 <Deewiant> I don't know ~anything about passively cooled ones
22:26:44 <ehird> I was just figuring out what yours was
22:26:46 <ehird> So that I can exclude it
22:27:20 <ehird> Looks like it'll be 512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3
22:27:33 <ehird> Any gamers in here are welcome to take a few second break to laugh at me heartily for saying that
22:27:43 <ehird> "Such a wimpy thing! Couldn't even play Wolfenstein 3D!"
22:27:56 <Deewiant> ehird: That's worse than my previous graphics card
22:28:07 <ehird> Deewiant: :-D What was your previous one?
22:28:23 <ehird> and I assume your opinion of it is "crap"
22:28:34 <Deewiant> Well, for certain values of "crap"
22:28:58 <Deewiant> I managed to play through Fallout 3 with that one
22:29:11 <ehird> Deewiant: The most graphically intensive game I've ever played is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy's_Splinter_Cell_(video_game)
22:29:20 <ehird> So I don't think it matters which card I pick, really.
22:29:31 <Deewiant> That didn't run well on the card before my X800XL
22:29:56 <ehird> Deewiant: But the card before your X800XL is worse than a 512mb Radeon 4550, right?
22:30:08 <ehird> Chipset Model:ATY,RadeonX1600
22:30:14 <ehird> PCIe Lane Width:x16
22:30:16 <ehird> VRAM (Total):128 MB
22:30:23 <ehird> So, my X1600 is better than the 4550? Heh.
22:30:34 <Deewiant> ehird: About the same, I think.
22:30:50 <ehird> I'd get a non-passively-cooled one if I wasn't worried about it whirring all the time.
22:30:59 <ehird> I guess it's just the high-end cards that do that, but I don't really like risking things.
22:31:02 <Deewiant> http://www.jathardware.com/2/video.html (warning: Finnish) sorts GPUs by power, approximately
22:31:32 <Deewiant> I'll start saying 'what?' every time I come to the computer too
22:31:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, whatever I get has to be less powerful than yours since you say it whirrs even when idle
22:32:01 <Deewiant> ehird: It has to be anyway, since I have the next-most powerful card AMD currently sells.
22:32:07 <Deewiant> The most powerful being the X2 version.
22:32:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, what to <fizzie> The lack of comment makes me wonder if AnMaster_ipv6 got the Pratchett reference. Although I guess it's not very commentable.
22:32:16 <ehird> So... {512MB,1GB} 4850, 512mb {4830,or 4550}
22:32:44 <ehird> The small selection I have to pick from is because apparently they assume everyone buying their top performance product is a gamer.
22:32:44 <fizzie> I think my passively-cooled one is a 8600 GT, which is there between GeForce 7800 GS and Radeon HD 2900 GT.
22:33:07 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It was a hedgehog song reference, before your owtte query.
22:33:12 <ehird> I _could_ get the lowest I can and replace it with one I buy myself, but fuck, I don't want to do more than switch the power supply :-P
22:34:59 <fizzie> Phew, the relief is palpable: the scripts I've written for that AI tournament university course thing I've been talking about every now and then seem to be working.
22:35:04 <ehird> http://www.silentpcreview.com/ β Huray, someone else is as obsessive as me!!
22:35:12 <ehird> "* Anechoic Test Chamber"
22:35:14 <ehird> Er, make that more obsessive.
22:35:47 <ehird> Oh, I thought they meant like
22:35:52 <ehird> They actually use them in one of those
22:35:55 <ehird> Which would be lol
22:36:15 <fizzie> There are other reviewers too that are very silently-oriented, but I've relied a lot on silentpcreview too.
22:36:29 <oklopol> fizzie: what tournament? tell everything you've told sofar.
22:36:40 <ehird> I just love the sound of an idle room, really.
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22:37:26 <ehird> I guess the silent pc guys watercool everything
22:37:38 <fizzie> oklopol: Just read http://wiki.tkk.fi/display/T934400/Home if you can't wait; have to go away for 15 minutes or so.
22:38:04 <oklopol> i'm not in a hurry, have tons to read and exam tomorrow
22:38:11 <oklopol> (wait actually 10 pages left)
22:38:22 <ehird> fizzie: see? your life is unbelievably fun.
22:38:27 <ehird> this is solid proof.
22:39:09 <Deewiant> Well, the answer is 'because the professor said so'
22:39:10 <oklopol> but i will probably do one more quick reread, i confused a detail about lzj and lzmw last time
22:39:19 <ehird> One day we'll invent completely silent systems that make no noise ever.
22:39:25 <ehird> Even when you use up 100% resources.
22:40:10 <Deewiant> I guess what I wanted to ask was 'is there any particular reason they specify Java'
22:40:51 <oklopol> our profs say something like "it's used a lot in companies", usually
22:40:57 <oklopol> i can't say i see the relevance of that
22:41:24 <ehird> oklopol: they're trying to teach you to go work at boringbigcorp.
22:41:53 <Deewiant> oklopol: That's a reason to teach it, not to force its use in a course about concepts not tied to any language
22:42:28 <SimonRC> my AI courses allowed any language
22:42:41 <ehird> I think I might know why I hate loud computers.
22:42:55 <ehird> I think I probably have tinnitus, so silence = faint whining
22:43:02 <ehird> So quiet noise + faint whining = annoying
22:43:41 <oklopol> Deewiant: i think the actual reason is those profs who aren't actually programmers at heart don't really know anything but java, since it's the official lang; hard to accept other languages
22:44:05 <Deewiant> Those profs aren't going to actually read the students code, are they?
22:44:39 <oklopol> STOP COUNTERING MY ARGUMENTS
22:45:13 <oklopol> i don't really know, maybe you can guess next
22:45:38 <Deewiant> The TAs might read the code but I don't see any good reason for that, in turn
22:45:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: Actually it's "because students said so".
22:46:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: It was still Scheme two years ago.
22:46:07 <oklopol> reason for what, *ta's* reading code, or *reading code*?
22:46:15 <ehird> fizzie: students dislike scheme?
22:46:16 <Deewiant> fizzie: Why force any particular language?
22:46:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course, they're idiots on average.
22:46:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: And just about everyone complained about Scheme, since it's no longer used for teaching.
22:46:43 <Deewiant> ehird: But it also helps that it's not taught.
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22:47:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Because the point is to provide a system for the students so that they can focus on the presumably-AI-related-parts of the assignment instead of generic code-writing.
22:47:04 <ehird> Give them a fucking copy of the little schemer.
22:47:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: So, in fact, any language would be okay as long as it can hook into what you provide?
22:48:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, yes, if it can compile to JVM bytecode so that it works in the tournament system (which needs a sandboxy thing and so on), it's okay. We had someone use Scala-or-whatsitcalled last year.
22:48:50 <Deewiant> Alright, then that page is just misleading.
22:48:59 <ehird> It's like Haskell + Ruby + Java.
22:49:01 <Deewiant> I might do the course next year and learn Clojure while I'm at it.
22:49:33 <oklopol> ehird: i doubt most students are at a level where they can learn a new language by themselves as they go
22:49:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: Assuming it still exists next year. Markku (the professor responsible for it) is retiring, I think. At least he said something like that.
22:49:52 <Deewiant> ehird: Scala seems somewhat lame to me, just a mishmash of some stuff but nothing really cool
22:49:58 <Deewiant> Maybe I haven't looked into it enough?
22:50:03 <ehird> Deewiant: It looked like that to me until today
22:50:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: Markku SyrjΓ€nen.
22:50:10 <ehird> It's really quite nice
22:50:19 <ehird> It is a mishmash, but it's a smooth mishmash
22:50:28 <ehird> There's not like different segments of piled on features like D
22:50:29 <oklopol> wait was Deewiant at helsinki too
22:50:48 <Deewiant> Not at Helsinki University, no.
22:51:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Its syntax is very lenient, very DSL-y, scripting code is just concise and simple like you'd expect, java libraries don't feel out of place, and its functional features are pretty much on par with haskell's, sans lazy evaluation
22:51:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Also -- it has really good concurrency, Actors and the like
22:51:35 <oklopol> Deewiant: is that some kinda university
22:52:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: Anyway, the page is "misleading" because non-Java languages aren't officially supported by the course personnel (i.e. me), so I don't go out of my way to advertise that possibility, just to keep things simple.
22:52:02 <oklopol> okay, i don't want to know the gory details
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22:52:17 <ehird> Deewiant: The only thing you can't do too well is scripts that run for pretty much 0 time and are called really often (of which there aren't many *at all*), since the JVM startup time penalty kicks in
22:52:23 <oklopol> but, err, for some reason i thought you lived in tampere, which is kinda weird, i usually remember this stuff
22:52:26 <Deewiant> fizzie: Meh, I'd just add a disclaimer.
22:53:11 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, I find the JVM somewhat repellent for that reason.
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22:53:31 <ehird> Deewiant: How many scripts do you write that (1) finish instantly and (2) are called really often?
22:53:41 <ehird> I can't really think of any apart from things that you should do e.g. as shell aliases
22:53:44 <oklopol> Deewiant: are you like a second year student?
22:53:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Even a little bit of processing will offset the jvm cost
22:53:59 <Deewiant> oklopol: Yep, for some values of 'like'
22:54:17 <Deewiant> ehird: Sure, but it's still noticeable compared to straight-to-executable languages.
22:54:37 <Deewiant> I mean, most things I write are the type that process for less than 1 second.
22:54:44 <oklopol> Deewiant: i guess the value i was going for was null.
22:54:59 <ehird> Deewiant: The JVM startup time is just like 0.1s
22:55:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, you're such a pedant. Personally I can't say I see a reason to say "Java (or any other language that can compile Java VM bytecode, but this option is not officially supported by course personnel)" when I can simply say "Java" and have the one people who wants to do anything "special" ask me in IRC about it.
22:55:19 <ehird> Deewiant: I mean, even a script that processes for 0.1s almost offsets the JVM startup cost
22:55:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: I just believe in not hiding options. :-P
22:55:50 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, it runs in 0.2s then, so only 50% of the time is startup.
22:56:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but when it comes down to it, a 0.2s script does _not_ feel 50% more responsive than a 0.1s script
22:56:16 <ehird> Humans aren't that simple
22:56:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It was a hedgehog song reference, before your owtte query. <-- didn't see the line.
22:56:30 <Deewiant> It does if you run it 5 times.
22:57:05 <ehird> Deewiant: So the majority of programs you write are scripts that take 0.1s or less to run and are called many times in quick succession?
22:57:19 <ehird> Deewiant: I really think that's quite a minority; and most of those "programs" could probably be done as shell functions.
22:57:25 <ehird> I agree JVM startup time could be better
22:57:30 <ehird> but I don't think it's that much of an issue.
22:57:42 <Deewiant> ehird: The majority of programs I've written are either quick scripts or esolang interpreters, which tend to be tested in that fashion.
22:58:09 <ehird> quick scripts: Usually take more than 0.1s to execute. 0.5-1s, I'd say, on average. Which offset the JVM startup time just fine.
22:58:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> I hardly ever wrote long running programs apart from some irc bots
22:58:17 <Deewiant> Besides that I've written libraries.
22:58:23 <ehird> Also, since the JVM itself is blazing fast, post-startup, what would take 1s in Perl could take 0.7s in the JVM
22:58:30 <Deewiant> And the remaining stuff I've written is in the minority.
22:58:38 <ehird> Esolang interpreters: Your test cases are too trivial.
22:58:40 <Deewiant> ehird: And 0.3s in D or whatever.
22:58:55 <ehird> Deewiant: http://kano.net/javabench/
22:59:01 <ehird> (β kidding around)
22:59:22 <ehird> Deewiant: There's no way you can get Mycology to go in less than 0.5s unless you're microoptimizing C like AnMaster_ipv6.
22:59:38 <Deewiant> ehird: Depends on the machine: times make no difference in isolation.
22:59:47 <Deewiant> CCBI with fingerprints on and output to terminal runs in 0.3s here.
22:59:54 <ehird> Deewiant: 0.4s vs 0.3s
23:00:01 <Deewiant> Hmm, why did I say 'difference' instead of 'sense'
23:00:08 <ehird> I could barely tell the difference
23:00:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, ccbi takes about 1 second here for mycology when redirecting stdout to /dev/null
23:00:23 <ehird> I'd say 0.4 is like 3% less responsive feeling than 0.3
23:00:30 <ehird> And I doubt you could tell unless you really, really wanted to
23:00:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Doing it repeatedly makes the 0.3 seem noticeably faster.
23:00:41 <Deewiant> But that's just my brain exaggerating the difference.
23:00:42 <oklopol> what in the world could it have that takes long?
23:00:46 <Deewiant> But then, my brain is the one who cares. :-P
23:01:02 <Deewiant> oklopol: The Perl interpreter runs it in 12 seconds.
23:01:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, well, for a megafast befunge interpreter that can run mycology in 0.3 that you wish to run it on again and again without any delay... don't use the JVM.
23:01:27 <Deewiant> oklopol: Everything, it's just turtle-slow. :-P
23:01:39 <ehird> But I would imagine after running mycology the next step would be either to fix the source to progress further, or to stop running mycology/
23:02:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, for cfunge the bottleneck is sting pushing of environment in y when Deewiant wants a delay in the test of HRTI
23:04:57 <oklopol> assumed that was some kinda befunge term
23:09:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> <AnMaster_ipv6> 0.65 without HRTI to stdout <-- meant 0.065
23:10:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol, HRTI = High Resolution Timer Interface iirc
23:11:16 <Deewiant> Just make a fingerprint that does, if you care
23:12:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, it would be properly designed then with implementation defined units, so you used some instruction to get "ticks per second" from interpreter
23:14:23 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:14:25 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:14:27 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
23:14:54 <Deewiant> School in 9 hours; I shall sleep now.
23:15:13 <oklopol> i shall watch south park now
23:16:01 <Deewiant> I'm happy to sleep even when not really tired.
23:16:14 <Deewiant> But I am a bit tired now, so I shall sleep.
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23:17:08 <oklopol> the actual reason i don't want to go to sleep now is that i need to wake up soon
23:21:41 <oklopol> and i go to the bank, get it fixed
23:21:47 <oklopol> now, one day late, i start paying rent
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23:30:08 <psygnisf_> first we must insight the proletariate to rise up
23:30:32 <psygnisf_> then, once the revolution has taken all land and property from the bourgeoisie, you wont need to pay rent.
23:32:29 <oklopol> will that get it payed tonight?
23:32:58 <SimonRC> you may kid but I keep seeing communists campaigning ni the town center
23:33:35 <psygnisf_> simonrc: im only partially kidding.
23:33:48 <psygnisf_> since i AM an insurrectionary anarchist.
23:34:44 <oklopol> that word did not be contained in mine head lexicon.
23:35:08 <ehird> practical-anarchists are so tdeious
23:35:33 <oklopol> i don't know "tdeious" either
23:35:37 <oklopol> god i suck at this language
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23:54:13 <oklopol> i wonder how i managed to spend half an hour not starting the ep
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00:34:55 <oerjan> The services have a swatter too...
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00:38:22 <oerjan> <oklopol> i don't know "tdeious" either
00:38:31 <oerjan> i guess it must be a loan from georgian
00:38:59 <fizzie> That comment makes oklopol sound like a text adventure.
00:39:39 <oerjan> well oklopol is an adventure all right
00:39:47 <fizzie> "I don't know how to 'tdeious'."
00:41:27 <oerjan> "See the tdeious people of Tbilisi wandering by the Mt'k'vari river"
00:44:23 <oerjan> i guess they would probably be tsrolling, actually
00:45:52 <fizzie> Google has this "Tony Davies Column - The TDeious way of doing Fourier transformation" but that's about it.
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01:39:43 <oklopol> i have a small-scale prΓΆb with sleeping atm.
01:39:58 <oerjan> try eating more mΓΆΓΆse
01:40:37 <oklopol> that's been playing in my head for a few days
01:42:12 <oklopol> it's a continuation to the "source encoding and compression" song that started playing in my head when reading, well, about exactly that
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01:43:56 <oklopol> more attempting at them sleepings
01:44:44 <oklopol> (sometimes it's "semaphoo-oor", elongated to sound like "semaphore whore")
01:45:42 <oklopol> (also the source encoding and compression song has, in the chorus, this spanish dude saying "compressioni", with a very spanish "ioni", it's hilarious)
01:46:46 <oerjan> um -ioni would be italian, i think
01:57:21 <oerjan> surprisingly hard to find, the spanish is compresiones
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10:19:30 <ais523> just finished handing in my final Master's report
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11:07:06 <oklopol_> first crash, i forgot how awesome ubuntu was
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11:08:14 <oklopol_> also the exam was a mockery of my memorization skills, gzip's was the only algorithm you needed to know by name (from the "subalgorithms")
11:09:12 <fizzie> It seems that nΚunqn is rather upside-down-friendly even with much special charactersies.
11:09:30 <fizzie> Maybe they designed it that way.
11:09:36 <oklopol_> with much special charactersies?
11:09:49 <fizzie> Oh, was trying to say "without" there.
11:10:02 <oklopol_> right right that's even better
11:12:41 <fizzie> What was that exam all about, anyway?
11:14:02 <oklopol_> i mean i have no idea, i just memorize the text.
11:14:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> I just found out why mycology wants storage offset so many times
11:14:32 <fizzie> Don't they ask anything else than direct quotations?
11:15:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> every other time that will push whatever corresponds to the top cell (flags)
11:15:11 <fizzie> I find it doubtful that oklopol's university only asks simple questions because of the ky in HRTI.
11:15:47 <fizzie> Yes, but I found it more amusing to interpret it that way.
11:16:03 <oklopol_> also i was just about to start googling what you meant by ky
11:16:17 <oklopol_> assumed hrti was a way to acrynomize our university.
11:17:04 <fizzie> oklopol_: Holy Righteous Turkuean Institution? Or was that what you were from, anyway?
11:17:16 <oklopol_> fizzie: well actually the gzip thing was like "explain the lz77 family, and how gzip implements the algo"
11:17:30 <oklopol_> you could get perfect points by simply memorizing
11:18:35 <oklopol_> actually there was just one apply algo type question, so you could've passed it with an okay grade without having any idea what it was about
11:19:14 <oklopol_> assuming it's allowed to use the exact same wordings
11:20:19 <oklopol_> i usually first list every fact the text mentions, then try to generalize the idea to sound a bit smarter than necessary.
11:20:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol_, http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/HRTI.html
11:21:08 <fizzie> Anyway, "ky" is not directly explained by that. I guess it's just "something that takes a measurable amount of time"?
11:21:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> UNDEF: T after M pushed 5 and a second T, after 675 ys, pushed 60324
11:21:53 <oklopol_> you should definitely invert the granularity to be ticks per second instead of seconds per tick
11:22:02 <oklopol_> then again i guess you said that last night.
11:24:13 <oklopol_> This timer is not affected by 'time travel' contrivances. <<< awww
11:24:37 <oklopol_> well. should probably eat and start studying for my next exam.
11:25:00 <fizzie> "Real" time-related interfaces seem to tend to fixed resolution, though. Admittedly clock(3) does CLOCKS_PER_SEC ticks, and the win32 performance-counters API too, but gettimeofday(3) is strictly microseconds-only, and clock_gettime(3) is nanoseconds-only, with a clock_getres(3) call returning resolution in nanoseconds too.
11:25:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, I use clock_gettime() in cfunge if it exists btw
11:25:34 <oklopol_> fizzie: no reason why befunge shouldn't do it better.
11:26:21 <fizzie> oklopol_: Man page sections.
11:26:47 <fizzie> 3 is something like "C library routines for C programs" according to one definition.
11:27:31 * AnMaster_ipv6 makes a lookup table for all y indexes between 1 and (whatever is the largest fixed one). Inclusive
11:28:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> actually I could just pick from a stack generated once if I decide to never implement EVAR
11:28:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol_, EVAR is a fingerprint for changing environment variables yes
11:29:59 <oklopol_> you should remember the details for EVAR.
11:30:14 <fizzie> There's "look up by name", "look up by index", "set by name" and "get amount of variables" in EVAR.
11:30:25 <oklopol_> well i guess it's rather short
11:31:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, is that "index" assuming that the list of env variables is sorted
11:31:13 <oklopol_> okay noodles, meat and ed, how does that sound for gourmet foods
11:31:21 <oklopol_> AnMaster_ipv6: DID YOU GET THE PUN
11:31:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> interestingly it seems ccbi sorts them, but I don't
11:31:29 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: The order is not defined. It's just the nth environment variable.
11:31:43 <fizzie> oklopol_: You can load that fingerprint with (4"EVAR" if you're moving right-to-left.
11:31:47 <oklopol_> see continuation to long story
11:32:17 <oklopol_> AnMaster_ipv6: well at least fizzie did
11:32:47 <fizzie> All oklopol_'s jokes are infinite.
11:33:11 <oklopol_> you know, far-fetched infinite time jokes
11:33:39 <oklopol_> i know, wasn't really funny either
11:33:48 <oklopol_> i just like confusing you for seconds at a time
11:34:14 <oklopol_> and i can't really see fizzie being him
11:34:26 <fizzie> Yes. I don't really have the ehird nature in me.
11:36:11 <oklopol_> this should be a monospace font, why are β and β not properly around the hole
11:36:34 <fizzie> It looks right enough here.
11:37:23 <oklopol_> hmm... i wonder if i could manage the real-time systems exam in an hour
11:37:43 <fizzie> β, β, β, β, β, β, β, β, A, B, select, start.
11:37:48 <oklopol_> if i could, then i could fit algebra and it on the same day and get another exam to fit later!
11:38:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> <oklopol_> this should be a monospace font, why are β and β not properly around the hole <-- looks ok here
11:38:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> <fizzie> β, β, β, β, β, β, β, β, A, B, select, start. <-- huh
11:38:55 <oklopol_> it's a special move in a game.
11:39:06 <Asztal_> it's the Konami code, works for a lot of games IIRC#
11:39:17 <fizzie> It's also a reasonably common cheat code in NES games.
11:39:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> I was wondering what strange variant of chess this was about :D
11:39:40 <fizzie> There is of course a list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Konami_code_games
11:40:35 <Asztal> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/06/0234245&from=rss quality slashdot editing, as usual.
11:40:53 <fizzie> Weird stuff. digg.com (website) - Press up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A to expand all comment threads on an article's overview page.
11:40:54 <oklopol_> basically the guy rips of a few hairs from the opponent, and uses them as strings for the banjo, you know for the voodoo doll effect, then punches the banjo with all his fists; it's called the banjo punch
11:41:15 <oklopol_> drains most hp, a bit of mana, and hurts the opponents feelings
11:41:53 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: No idea, it was just there on the list.
11:42:04 <fizzie> oklopol_: This is some sort of imaginary game thing, right?
11:42:25 <oklopol_> banjo fighters is as real as you and me
11:42:47 <fizzie> That might not be very real.
11:43:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol_, maybe there is a game called that, but does that move exist in it<q>
11:43:59 <fizzie> I'm not seeing any threading in digg.com anyway. Maybe it's a setting. There's an "expand all" link, so it's not a very hidden functionality even if it exists.
11:44:10 <Asztal> wait, it works in Half-Life 2β½
11:45:58 <oklopol_> i've probably unlocked it anyway if it's possible, sounds familiar
11:46:44 <fizzie> There's already a "This article does not cite any references or sources." on top.
11:46:59 <fizzie> Put there in March 2008.
11:48:06 <oklopol_> maybe you could underline it tho
11:49:01 <fizzie> Put a big red rectangle around it, and <blink> tags too.
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14:10:39 <lifthrasiir> http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/xumul the XUMUL spec seems to be finalized. i added more examples but making 99 bottles of beer should be quite hard.
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15:24:43 <tombom> the konami code on digg
15:27:57 <fizzie> Quite a lot of fractional blocks there, you can almost make a volume control label thingie: β βββββ
βββ +
15:28:29 <ais523> I've forgotten what they're called, but ehird made a program that made little inline unicode graphs that you could put into IRC comments
15:31:02 <fizzie> "Y did you do that?" eh eh eh-heh.
15:32:29 <fizzie> It's just the y/why thing.
15:35:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> it didn't reuse result of time() call between date and time for example, this was because of the way it was implemented to handle pushing individual parts without doing the "push all, pop some" thing.
15:35:32 <fizzie> I hardly think Y performance really matters in most "real" Funge-98 programs... but I could be wrong; I don't really have much experience on how Funge-98 is used in the real-life software industry.
15:35:41 <fizzie> Have to go work β home at this point; away.
15:36:05 <fungot> AnMaster_ipv6: ' yes, it's all right. i accept it as fnord? is it particular or universal?
15:36:10 <fizzie> That's not a real program, though. It's a test suite, and not even a performance benchmark at that.
15:36:14 <fizzie> There should be no y in fungot.
15:36:15 <fungot> fizzie: sylvie, who hadn't quite lost her surprised look, put up her mouth for a great effort, and swallowed a large piece of plaster fnord on her lap, " fnord taxes!'"
15:37:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway, in mycology y is the bottleneck for cfunge. To be specific all the string pushing when pushing the environment variables is
15:38:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> I was planning to cache a pre-pushed array of the environment variables and then just memcpy() it onto the stack
15:38:43 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: do you optimise y with a positive argument?
15:38:57 <ais523> as in, if someone asks for something that isn't the env vars, do you give it to them without checking the env vars?
15:38:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I do as far as I can know for certain what number to go for
15:39:49 <AnMaster_ipv6> but up to (and including) the size of TOSS I have a switch case
15:40:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> well I do now, in trunk it only does that up until 10
15:42:39 <ais523> why don't you add an option to cfunge to clear the environment before running the program?
15:43:00 <ais523> for programs that didn't care about env vars, it wouldn't change their behaviour at all, for programs that did it would still be "correct", just faster
15:43:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well if I want to measure other parts of the code in a meaningful way I tend to do: env -i bash --noprofile --norc -c 'time ./cfunge ../../trunk/mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null'
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15:52:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> fungus (a rather incomplete and somewhat broken test suite for funge interpreters, made by !Befunge author) told me: Stack cell size is 31 bits
15:53:19 <ais523> that's a great way in which to be somewhat broken
15:57:31 -!- ehird has left (?).
15:59:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> now time to try to figure out that bug with slowdown.b98...
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16:01:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, so you finished your master thesis or what was the thing you were talking about?
16:02:13 <fizzie> At home, but have to do dinnur now. Anyway, I certainly am not critisizising your Mycology optimization tricks, just amused by them.
16:02:14 <ais523> I'm now on wind-down time
16:02:29 <ais523> deadline was 12pm today, but I submitted it at about 9am
16:02:43 <ais523> because it helps to be a few hours early in case they've invented a last-minute requirement for how to submit it
16:02:53 <AnMaster_ipv6> if I really wanted to optimise I would change flags cell in a way so it pushed some number that caused it to not push the whole thing every other time
16:03:02 <ais523> (they had, but it was just to write my name on the front, that only took a couple of minutes because I was trying to make it look neat)
16:03:28 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: what about a lazy stack?
16:03:44 <ais523> just push a token meaning "environment variables go here"
16:03:52 <ais523> and only push them if the value of the token matters
16:04:05 <ais523> in fact, a fully lazy funge interp could be interesting
16:04:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, hm it need to track length of the stack anyway
16:04:26 <ais523> and I don't think it would violate the Funge standards, as long as it had strict I/O
16:04:30 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: only if something asked for it
16:04:34 <ais523> you could delazify if something did
16:04:39 <lifthrasiir> ais523: i have a similar plan for pyfungec
16:04:48 <fizzie> 16 out of the registered ~50 AI tournament participants have returned their bots; deadline is today at midnight. Probably most of them will return it during the last hour.
16:05:00 <fizzie> Should do a master's thesis too this Spring. Heh.
16:05:10 <ais523> ah, I was wondering what the name meant
16:05:14 <ais523> fizzie: what's that about?
16:05:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, anyway: ky causes y to jump to whatever matches the value in the flags cell every other time, because flag cell is 15, with will be on top first time, then next y will use it for parameter, 15 maps to pushing x or y component of storage offset (forgot which). which is 0 at that point, which causes next to push full list, and so on
16:06:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> now if I really wanted to optimise for mycology I would change the flag cells in some way so it ended up pushing small positive values every time after the initial 0
16:06:20 <ais523> you're specifically going to optimise "ky"?
16:06:46 <lifthrasiir> you mean, for example ay does calculate and push only one cell?
16:06:46 <AnMaster_ipv6> but I found this out while I was checking what y values were common
16:07:04 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, and was wondering why mycology wanted storage offset so many times
16:07:27 <ais523> also, I don't like the idea of optimising for Mycology, but optimising variants involving k could be profitable
16:07:33 <ais523> for instance, ffff***k>
16:07:40 <ais523> that could be optimised really easily
16:07:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well I try to optimise for fungot too, but it is harder to measure
16:07:46 <fungot> AnMaster_ipv6: we were silent for awhile, and then fnord that the conclusion, if there is to be one of them.
16:08:04 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: why not make a generic compiler that's optimised even for programs that haven't been written yet?
16:08:07 <AnMaster_ipv6> while mycology runs as fast as it can all the time
16:08:09 <fizzie> ais523: The tournament or the thesis?
16:08:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I try to, some stuff I optimised extra doesn't help for mycology
16:08:33 <ais523> fizzie: I meant the tournament
16:08:36 <fungot> AnMaster_ipv6: " well, what's the matter, darling?" said bruno.
16:08:38 <ais523> but the thesis is likely to be interesting too
16:09:17 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It still has a topic, though.
16:09:20 <ehird> 14:27 fizzie: Quite a lot of fractional blocks there, you can almost make a volume control label thingie: β βββββ
βββ +
16:09:21 <ehird> 14:28 ais523: I've forgotten what they're called, but ehird made a program that made little inline unicode graphs that you could put into IRC comments
16:09:30 <ehird> unicode sparklines
16:09:31 <AnMaster_ipv6> <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: It still has a topic, though. <-- ?
16:09:32 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: my thesis is done, presumably fizzie's isn't though
16:09:35 <fizzie> ais523: The tournament is the programming project part of our "Introduction to Artificial Intelligence" course; the task is to write a board-game AI in the framework provided by the course.
16:09:43 <ehird> ais523: there's only one thesis
16:10:18 <ehird> have I mentioned scala is nice
16:10:28 <fizzie> ais523: And then the returned game-playing bots are playeded against each other, and the top-N winners get magnificient prizes; so that the students get motivated enough, that is.
16:10:51 <ais523> we did something like that in our second year, but with line-following racing bots rather than AIs
16:11:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, as for lazy stack, do you think it would save much? compared to the overhead of tracking "is this lazy"
16:11:52 <ais523> profiling it might help
16:12:01 <ais523> how do you check for beyond-bottom-of-stack, atm?
16:12:02 <ehird> HAVE I MENTIONED SCALA IS QUITE A GOOD LANGUAGE
16:12:08 <ais523> I've just had an insane idea
16:12:09 <fizzie> The board game is something developed by a Finnish master-of-chess person, and it's a relatively unknown so that they can't just filch a chess UI from some open-source thing.
16:12:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well I don't catch segfaults like fizzie do, but rather check if stack->top == 0
16:12:58 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: the idea to do laziness would be to put a fake top-of-stack on the stack
16:13:03 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, since stack->top is just a index into the malloced block used for stack
16:13:19 <ais523> you'd check stack->top == top_or_top_lazy_index_number
16:13:25 <ais523> that check's just as fast as what you have at the moment
16:13:28 <ehird> I wish the unicode blox were thinner
16:13:46 <ais523> if you do unlazify, or go over the end of the stack, you'll have an efficiency cost then changing your internal setup
16:13:50 <ais523> but that doesn't happen very often
16:13:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, yes quite possible, but it does require storing extra out-of-band data
16:14:15 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, currently I speed stuff up by doing crazy stuff like { and } memcpy()ing between TOSS and SOSS and such
16:14:20 <ehird> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/06/0234245&from=rss β oh god
16:14:26 <ehird> get me o ut of this fucknig country
16:14:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, that is another thing that doesn't matter for mycology btw
16:14:37 <ehird> is it a fake thing
16:14:42 <ehird> I mean I just read the summariry
16:16:28 <AnMaster_ipv6> there is talk about such things here in Sweden as well
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16:16:37 <Asztal_> I think it's just email subjects, so I don't see how it's going to stop terrorism
16:17:16 <ais523> apparently in Germany they're just recording what IP people had at a given time they were online
16:17:23 <ais523> in an attempt to comply with that
16:17:45 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, anyway a lot of my optimised stack code does assume stack is stored as a single array, so it would need to be reworked for such a lazy stack
16:17:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> I would like to know more about this stack certainly
16:18:25 <ehird> 16:12 AnMaster_ipv6: ais523, well I don't catch segfaults like fizzie do, but rather check if stack->top == 0
16:18:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> because I don't know enough about stuff in this area
16:18:34 <ehird> you should really do segfault checking
16:18:41 <ehird> it'd remove like 5 billion branches
16:18:56 <ehird> there's a portable lib to do it
16:19:02 <ais523> that even works on DOS?
16:19:11 <ehird> ais523: cfunge doesn't work on dos
16:19:18 <ais523> ehird: well, it should do
16:19:23 <ais523> maybe I should try porting it some time
16:19:25 <ehird> it never will, ais523.
16:19:33 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: I think the lib does
16:19:50 <ehird> I keep getting StackOverflow.com results
16:20:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, how would this lazy stack work, I mean "stack->top == top_or_top_lazy_index_number" for example, do you mean a special value on the top of the stack and stack->top being a pointer?
16:21:05 <ais523> I mean you have out-of-band data that stores where the lazy entries are
16:21:16 <ais523> and a variable whose value is the top lazy entry on the stack
16:21:19 <AnMaster_ipv6> what then? I admit I'm totally ignorant about how you work with lazy data structures
16:21:21 <ais523> or the bottom of the stack if there aren't any
16:21:57 <ais523> if an attempt is made to use that value, you then figure out what special value was requested, unlazify if needed, and set the index number according to the new circumstances
16:22:17 <ehird> "Details of every email sent and website visited by people in Britain are to be stored for use by the state from tomorrow as part of what campaigners claim is a massive assault on privacy. "
16:22:22 <ehird> fuck "what campaigners claim"
16:22:34 <ehird> there is no way you can claim that's not a complete destruction of privacy
16:23:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I would have a separate array or linked list or something containing a list with info about all lazy parts of the stack, and then update the "first lazy" when I remove/expand part of the stack?
16:23:25 <fizzie> A library for that stack-overflow-trickery sounds, well, tricky. I cheat a bit in that I know what memory-access instructions can cause a stack underflow, so when handling it, there's only a rather reasonable amount of situations I need to fake the "whoops, returned 0" thing in.
16:23:39 <ehird> fizzie: no, there really is a portable c library to detect segfault
16:23:43 <ehird> that work son most unix systems iirc
16:23:55 <ais523> ehird: my point was, that how are you going to guarantee that underflow causes a segfault?
16:23:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, how would this interact with stuff like stack size in y, FRTH pick, y as pick with large enough value and so on?
16:24:08 <ehird> ais523: by aligning it
16:24:35 <ais523> ehird: "itt"? I always assumed it meand "in the topic", but in this context it can't do
16:24:54 <ehird> Commonly used as a subject line, e.g.
16:25:00 <ehird> "ITT we are Bill Gates"
16:25:10 <ehird> Or, on the subject of mmap: "ITT mmap"
16:25:39 <fizzie> Sure, sure, I just said it sounds tricky. Well, maybe not the "detect segfault" bit, more the "fake that it worked and restore execution" bit.
16:25:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> well doing that is a pain when you need to grow stack
16:26:02 <fizzie> I do the forced segfault with a mmap'd range and mprotect()ing the pages before and after it.
16:26:06 <fizzie> Must do food-preparing now, not here.
16:26:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> which is even more of a pain when you consider that there is the stack stack with many stacks, each which may need to grow, and multiple ips too
16:26:43 <ais523> fizzie: what's to stop the OS memmapping two things in adjacent pages?
16:26:48 <ais523> so you underflow from one onto the previous?
16:27:10 <ehird> that's why you mprotect.
16:27:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, he said he mmap()s one and then mprotects it as no-access
16:27:34 <ais523> what if you're on a processor that doesn't have memory protection?
16:27:44 <ais523> does POSIX guarantee that mprotect is implementable?
16:28:16 <AnMaster_ipv6> it does allow implementations to allow execution even if it is only readable
16:29:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> POSIX.1-2001 says that an implementation may permit access other than that specified in prot, but at a minimum can only allow write access if
16:29:01 <AnMaster_ipv6> PROT_WRITE has been set, and must not allow any access if PROT_NONE has been set.
16:29:42 <AnMaster_ipv6> on linux mprotect() works on non-mmaped pages too it says heh
16:29:46 <fizzie> Yes, I mprotect the first and last page of the longer, contiguous stack I've mmap()d, so it'd be a rather rude OS if it were to mess that up.
16:30:52 <fizzie> Don't remember; I was going to make it grow up as necessary, but I don't think that's even implemented yet. It's some fixed reasonable number of pages now.
16:30:59 <fizzie> The food, it is burning. Gah.
16:31:05 <fizzie> Stop talking interesting stuff.
16:33:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> at end of mycology the stack in a 32-bit fungespace build of cfunge is 12 pages (4096 bytes on x86) large
16:34:05 <AnMaster_ipv6> when I grow the stack I grow with one page at a time btw
16:34:10 <ehird> now call for psygnisfive
16:34:15 <ehird> and we'll go back into uninterestingness
16:35:27 <Slereah_> Shush, I'm trying to lure psygnisfive
16:35:39 <ehird> Shit I forgot to change nick
16:35:45 -!- ehird has changed nick to psygnsifive.
16:36:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> psygnisfive, he said "<fizzie> Stop talking interesting stuff."
16:36:27 <ais523> well, why do you think I wasn't talking
16:36:29 <psygnsifive> Interesting stuff carries on if uninteresting stuff doesn't.
16:36:32 <ais523> let's talk to fungot for a while
16:36:33 <fungot> ais523: fnord. all blades are fnord some ignorant people are conceited.
16:36:42 <psygnsifive> So, on the topic of being sexually aligned to the same gender.
16:36:55 <ais523> psygnsifive: take it to -offtopic, please
16:37:17 -!- psygnsifive has changed nick to ehird.
16:38:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, anyway there are some stuff that would be hard to do with a lazy stack. the FRTH fingerprint that allows pick and such
16:38:31 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: how do you implement pick past the end of the stack?
16:39:12 <ehird> VISION IN WEB 2.0 AJAXSCRIPT
16:40:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, it gets index counting from stack base it seems in the relevant code for that in stack.c and there it returns 0 for out of range
16:41:29 <AnMaster_ipv6> and it reflects for negative arguments (above top of stack) and pushes 0 for below base of stack
16:41:48 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: my general advice is whatever you do to handle below base of stack, handle lazy elements the same way
16:42:09 <ais523> and yes, this method is hideously complicated, /but/ it doesn't have an efficiency penalty
16:42:55 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, anyway I need to handle <base><1:non-lazy><2:lazy><3:non-lazy><top> and FRTH wanting to pick in the lower non-lazy area (1)
16:43:08 <ais523> you expand the lazy when that happens
16:43:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> in fact I need to know size of stack all the time, because y need to be able to return it
16:43:18 <ehird> what are you talking about anyway
16:43:23 <ais523> likewise, you expand the lazy if someone calls y in such a way it's asking for the stack size
16:43:27 <ais523> ehird: lazy y in Befunge
16:43:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, well that is most of the time when it would be useful to be lazy it also has stack size
16:43:45 <ais523> as far as I can tell, it wouldn't violate any of the standards or change any behaviour
16:43:47 <ais523> and it would be faster
16:44:04 <ehird> i mean it makes sense so why are you talking so much
16:44:10 <ehird> can AnMaster_ipv6 not fit his brain around it? lol
16:44:13 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: what about lazy-chaining?
16:44:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, you mean that until it tries to compute on the returned stack size it won't calculate it
16:44:50 <ais523> and you remember the size of the nonlazy parts of the stack in the lazy token
16:44:57 <ais523> and just add the lazy parts if it becomes relevant
16:45:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, potentially you could also do lazy calculations on these areas I guess
16:46:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway, this sounds like it would be way easier in some other language than C, haskell for example
16:46:25 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: you may as well have a fully lazy funge if you're going that far
16:46:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> it might be worth trying, but it would be a lot of work
16:46:27 <ehird> this sounds trivial
16:46:45 <ais523> I only intended the simpler versions of laziness
16:46:46 <ehird> on y just push a dummy data structure with NULL fields
16:46:52 <ehird> then when you access them, set the fields to the value
16:47:00 <ais523> ehird: Funge doesn't have data structures
16:47:01 <ehird> so easy it's not even funny
16:47:07 <ehird> ais523: you know what i mean
16:47:15 <ehird> taking the stack segment as a data structure
16:47:19 <ais523> and doing it without an efficiency loss when it isn't used is slightly harder, but only slightly
16:47:33 <ehird> so why is AnMaster_ipv6 talking about it so much
16:47:43 <ais523> corner cases, as usual
16:48:01 <ais523> they're all fixable, you just have to deal with them all individually
16:48:03 <ehird> I'll corner AnMaster_ipv6's cases if he keeps doing this kind of thing
16:48:43 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, it would be worthless if it made it fail in mycology, and these are hardly corner cases
16:48:57 <ehird> mycology checks corner cases
16:49:00 <ehird> that's the whole point
16:49:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, maybe storing the size of the lazy stuff (if known) could be useful.
16:49:03 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I'm not talking about anything that makes it fail
16:49:17 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: what I'm saying is, if the size matters, just delazify
16:49:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> I mean for env variables I could easily store it non-lazy first time and track how much is used for example
16:49:26 <ais523> from then on you can memoize what the size of the env vars is
16:49:42 <ais523> until they change, and how often does that happen?
16:50:17 <AnMaster_ipv6> and even if I did I guess I wouldn't need to invalidate it often
16:51:21 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: *nEVAR
16:51:37 <ais523> http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/#color-box <--- I just found this, and Mathematica really really badly needs it
16:51:39 <oklopol_> i already made one joke with evar, but he just wouldn't get it
16:51:50 <ehird> stop talking about it then
16:51:57 <oklopol_> fizzie just tried to explain it to you
16:51:59 <ehird> ais523: doesn't work well in practice.
16:52:11 <ais523> ehird: neither does Mathematica's current method, that would be an improvement
16:52:24 <ehird> are we talking bout the same thing
16:52:32 <ais523> ehird: quite possibly not
16:52:39 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, what would be the best format to store out of band data for lazy parts of stack hm...
16:52:41 <ehird> what are you talkin bout
16:52:48 <ais523> ehird: the link I pasted above, http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/#color-box
16:53:01 <ehird> but what does mathematica currently do
16:53:17 <ais523> ehird: breaks the line in random places for no apparent reason, and flashes parens when you cursor over them
16:53:27 <ehird> I like mathematica autoformatting
16:53:43 <ais523> ehird: I think its autoformatting makes it impossible to see what the code's doing
16:53:50 <ais523> just because two related things can be so far from each other
16:53:56 <ais523> and you have no way to match them
16:54:03 <ehird> then your code is not factored enough
16:54:15 <ais523> ehird: have you seen the code that Wolfram themselves churn out?
16:54:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, anyway technically checking a non-constant value would in fact be slower ;P, just unmeasurable I suspect. An extra memory load from an address close by instead of using a constant "branch if zero" instruction sequence. But most likely wouldn't even be a measurable difference.
16:54:24 <ais523> it's lots and lots of nested standard functions
16:54:38 <ais523> so you can't see which options or args go with which functions
16:54:45 <ais523> because there are so many other things in between
16:55:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ais523> http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/#color-box <-- wow
16:55:02 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: if it's in L1 cache, and it almost certainly will be, no slower on x86
16:55:31 <ais523> personally I'd keep the parens too
16:55:35 <ehird> it'd be nice if you could actually use them
16:55:39 <ehird> trust me, it's useless
16:55:48 <ehird> ais523: they're unusable
16:56:11 <ehird> in that they don't help coding, they hinder
16:56:13 <ais523> is it slow? does it break badly when you try to add another paren pair?
16:56:22 <ehird> not in implementation
16:56:32 <ais523> it's the same information that's there already, just with more information
16:56:42 <ais523> and besides, it's mostly for reading the code you've written
16:56:46 <ehird> ais523: just because you can doesn't mean you should
16:56:50 <ehird> it isn't helpful in practice
16:56:51 <ais523> not for writing it, anyone can do that by writing from outside to inside
16:57:26 <ehird> you know, it's a downloadable .el file
16:57:30 <ehird> how do you think I know oklopol_
16:57:45 <oklopol_> well i assume you're just talking crap
16:58:36 <ais523> oh, I was going to test it on some Mathematica code from the Wolfram demonstrations thing
16:58:55 <ais523> but the "show source" link gives you an image of the source, which is ridiculous
16:59:09 <ehird> http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/mwe-color-box.el
16:59:19 <ais523> there's a link to download the notebook too
16:59:32 <ehird> ais523: wolfram code is rich text
16:59:32 <ehird> so i'm not too surprised
16:59:35 <ehird> s/wolfram/mathematica/
16:59:47 <ais523> it can be represented entirely in text form
16:59:50 <ais523> that's what InputForm is
17:00:23 <ais523> anyway, it's very very interesting that the source code they provide for their demonstrations isn't using the auto-indented version
17:00:30 <ais523> but has been indented into a lot more lines by hand to show the structure
17:00:50 <fizzie> One of the paste-places did that color-box-alike stuff for Scheme.
17:00:50 <ais523> I guess they couldn't work with their bracket-matching either
17:00:51 <ehird> ais523: you can't fully automate formatting...
17:01:03 <ehird> fizzie: lisppaste, and it does it in an even more stupid way
17:01:09 <ais523> on the other hand, most languages have code that's at least slightly readable without it
17:01:22 <ais523> I think that colour-box thing would help for reading INTERCAL expressions too
17:01:46 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: paste.lisp.org
17:02:00 <ehird> and it does it in a way that makes it even more useless than colour boxes
17:02:07 <ehird> a veritable pastel explosion
17:02:15 <ehird> it only highlights the parens
17:02:19 <ehird> when you hover over the body
17:02:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, but pretty sure it doesn't use colour boxes, rather matching colours for parentheses
17:02:37 <ehird> I just said it wasn't identical
17:02:44 <ehird> http://lemonodor.com/images/lisppaste-sexpr-highlighting.jpg
17:03:06 <ehird> it's highlighting sexps with a background
17:03:10 <ehird> that's pretty fucking niche already
17:03:13 <ehird> i'm not segregating further
17:03:21 <fizzie> I guess it might've been that I'm remembering, anyway.
17:04:19 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:04:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> meh, why can't I set a watch point *with a condition* in gdb
17:05:13 <AnMaster_ipv6> as in, if variable goes to a value larger than 2000 or so
17:05:23 <AnMaster_ipv6> (and I don't even know where in program it would do
17:08:38 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAH! C++ style << overloading
17:08:59 <ehird> ais523: Well, it's more the general idea
17:09:02 <ehird> but in this case it was in scala
17:09:05 <ais523> SystemC is worse, it's based on C++ and also overloads << but for something entirely different and also unrelated to bitshifts
17:09:07 <ehird> but scala doesn't have "operators"
17:09:36 <fizzie> AnMaster_ipv6: I think it should work. "watch var" followed by "condition bnum expression", where bnum is the watchpoint number.
17:10:04 <fizzie> That should make the conditionized watchpoint only stop when the expression given to "condition" is true.
17:10:31 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:10:36 <fizzie> There seems to be also syntactic sugar for writing that as "watch var if var > 2000" or some-such.
17:10:56 * ais523 goes to stackoverflow for amusement value
17:11:38 <fizzie> "5.1.6 Break Conditions" manual section does.
17:12:01 <fizzie> The "help watch" output is rather terse.
17:13:22 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
17:32:03 * AnMaster_ipv6 hard codes random seed in for now to be able to debug this...
17:32:26 <fizzie> Strange. It does not work here either, although according to the manual it really should.
17:33:21 <fizzie> You can do "watch var>2000", though; that at least works here.
17:34:26 <AnMaster_ipv6> and gdb has a limit on number of supported watch points, depending on how much the hardware supports
17:34:36 <fizzie> watch "var < -2000 || var > 2000" then?
17:35:26 <fizzie> After all, you just need one expression that will toggle from 0 to 1 when something interesting happens. Of course it'll also break when it goes back to 0, but I don't think that's usually a problem.
17:36:55 <fizzie> One would think that "watch var < -2000 || var > 2000" would actually be better than "watch var if var < -2000 || var > 2000" since that last one would break on all changes of var where the condition is true, not just when the condition initially becomes true. Well, if the "... if foo" syntax would work at all, that is.
17:37:51 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm no gdb-wizard, and if you have alternative ways of debugging that actually work you might as well use those.
17:52:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> some sort of memory corruption not detectable by either valgrind or mudflap is about the only possibility left
17:52:30 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: what's the problem?
17:53:02 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: what's the fungespace in between?
17:53:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> I dumped it and and next instruction should not be that far out
17:53:31 <ais523> I was wondering if it got blanked somehow
17:53:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> >' 03-:g04-:g 05-:g1+05-:p 03-:g01-:g- 01-:g2+02-:g3+g-!#v_^
17:54:43 <ais523> did p pop the stack correctly, by the way?
17:55:11 <fizzie> It looks very sensible; 99 -> 96 and the 3 topmost have vanished.
17:55:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, going to debug this, just added a temp tick variable I can break on...
17:55:26 <ais523> so the problem seems to be corruption of x
17:55:44 <ais523> is it correctly writing the cell at (-5, -5), by the way?
17:57:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm storageOffset = {x = 584432564, y = -463152454}
17:58:12 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: if only you had implemented TRDS, you could go back to when it went wrong and try again
17:58:41 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I can because I temporarily hard coded the random seed to srandom() :P
17:58:51 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: is it trying to access element [-5][-5] of the static array, I wonder?
17:59:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, it shouldn't be, I'm single stepping atm...
17:59:18 <ais523> that's far too far outside for mudflap to notice, and if it hits valid memory valgrind-memcheck wouldn't notice either
18:01:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, anyway after storage offset was added it turned into:
18:01:34 <ais523> what's happening to your IP's x?
18:01:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I have it up with display *IP all the time
18:02:21 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway program now decided that it should use hash library (correctly)
18:13:22 <AnMaster_ipv6> and no bad write issue, but rather something related to the algorithm making the bounds incorrect...
18:18:11 <AnMaster_ipv6> ok changing a + to a - solved that part of the issue. but hm
18:18:57 <ais523> the bounds went crazy, and it was wrapping to that ridiculous point
18:19:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, for some reason they ended up correct later
18:25:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> Deewiant, now cfunge works correctly in all parts of slowdown.b98
18:26:09 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, as for ridiculous point, that part was correct in fact, it was the max point in that direction.
18:26:43 <ais523> it's still ridiculous, just because it's correct doesn't mean it isn't ridiculous
18:33:49 <ehird> Scala weirdness: it has xml literals.
18:34:13 <ehird> scala> var a = <a href="google.com">{2+2}</a>
18:34:13 <ehird> a: scala.xml.Elem = <a href="google.com">4</a>
18:34:19 <ehird> I don't know why it has them but there you go.
18:35:24 <ais523> ehird: VB.NET is the only other language I know with XML literals
18:35:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm on my computer the two switches -fgcse-sm -fgcse-las (in combination) help a lot, comparing to plain -O3 when compiling cfunge, it seems to differ between different computers though, on a pentium3 I tested with it slowed down slightly instead
18:35:43 <ehird> Yes, well, Scala's quite superior to VB.NET :-P
18:35:52 <ais523> I have no idea whether it's a useful feature or not, I can't think of an obvious use right now but presumably there is one
18:36:04 <ais523> maybe representing parse trees directly in the source code?
18:36:04 <ehird> Scala even has lisp-style syntax for symbols
18:36:11 <ehird> (although that's not a generic quoting mechanism)
18:36:20 <ehird> ais523: Templating
18:36:30 <ehird> To use haskell style syntax:
18:36:35 <ais523> sort-of like inside-out PHP?
18:36:40 <ehird> page name = <body><h1>Hello, {name}!</h1></body>
18:36:47 <ehird> well, most template languages are like php
18:37:00 <ehird> and, also, xml processing, I assume
18:37:13 <ehird> as in, you can just copy it in and work with it
18:41:38 * ais523 does a Google search for 0x5f3759df
18:42:06 <ehird> ais523 googles so rarely that he tells us every time
18:42:14 <ehird> also, iirc they just made it up
18:42:30 <ais523> who's they, and what did they just make up
18:42:50 <ehird> ais523: 0x5f3759df? From InvSqrt?
18:43:10 <ehird> I meant, John Carmack just made up the magic number.
18:43:14 <ehird> I seem to recall that being the backstory.
18:43:37 <ais523> oh, I didn't care about the backstory, but about the algorithm
18:43:51 <ehird> http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/8/
18:44:00 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, you remembered that number or looked it up somewhere?
18:44:03 <ais523> it's a disappointment really, I was hoping they'd used some weird feature of the implementation of floats to run the entire loop in one machine instruction
18:44:07 <ehird> Not me, and I don't think it is Michael. Terje Matheson perhaps?
18:44:08 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: came across it
18:44:30 <oklopol_> yeah eight hex digits how could anyone remember that
18:44:31 <lifthrasiir> that magic number is really magic, since it is not optimal theoretically but is optimal in the practice
18:44:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, I would be scared if you had memorized it...
18:44:39 <oklopol_> that's like remembering a whole name.
18:44:40 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: why
18:44:44 <ehird> I remember a few telephone numbers
18:44:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> oklopol_, of course you could if you wanted. But it would be so strange to memorise that one
18:44:58 <ehird> it's programmer lore
18:45:14 <oklopol_> i remember all telephone numbers i use
18:45:16 <ehird> actually i only remember our landline number
18:45:22 <ehird> probably because it's quite mnemonic
18:45:29 <ehird> oh one four three four six oh eight nine five three
18:45:30 <ais523> also, bitshifting floats is evil and ridiculous
18:45:34 <ehird> i guess that's only mnemonic to me
18:45:42 <ais523> so that guessing code isn't running Newton, but it is using some algorithm to get very close
18:45:47 <ehird> but "four three four"
18:45:49 <ehird> that's so mnemonic
18:45:50 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yes you do.
18:46:07 <ais523> apparently someone did a computer search and found it was suboptimal, but not by much
18:46:07 <lifthrasiir> my family's telephone numbers are anagrams of each other. they are actually hard to remember :p
18:46:12 <AnMaster_ipv6> anyway I do remember a few phone numbers, not many though
18:46:20 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: if you want more phone numbers, we brits have a nice thick phone book.
18:46:45 <oklopol_> AnMaster_ipv6: have you actually looked at that hex number? it's a bit hard not to remember
18:46:54 <oklopol_> because it has a very distinct structure
18:46:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, yes but it would be much easier to trace down what specific Elliot Hird with that.
18:47:11 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: no, you couldn't trace an Elliot Hird with it
18:47:51 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, well your family I guess, unless it is secret? At least here in Sweden the info about who owns a specific telephone number is public
18:48:01 <ehird> my name is not Elliot Hird
18:48:32 <ehird> congrats, you join 5,000 others in missing a t
18:48:48 <oklopol_> you also know where ehird lives
18:48:49 <fizzie> ehird: Have you considered showing your support for the Movement and legally changing your surname to Hurd?
18:48:58 <ehird> fizzie: ITYM GNU/HURD
18:49:09 <ehird> oklopol_: my full address is on the interweb
18:49:10 <fizzie> Yes, if they allow a slash in name.
18:49:28 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: 4 orchard terrace, hexham, northumberland
18:49:42 <ehird> pedophiles: please don't come and be a pedophile.
18:49:47 <ehird> that would be very pedophile.
18:50:07 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:50:08 <ais523> well, the algorithm's just approximating the value by using the exponent field in the float
18:50:22 <ais523> and instead of clearing the mantissa, it's leaving junk there for faster calculation
18:50:44 <ais523> the number is presumably chosen to help optimise the chance that the mantissa junk is useful
18:51:10 <fizzie> Hexham sounds like an awesome name. Something sort of combination of witch-style cursery and ham.
18:51:38 <ais523> ehird was surprised that I'd heard of Hexham before he told me
18:51:42 <ehird> we are the land of accursed ham
18:51:43 <ais523> but it's a relatively famous place
18:51:49 <ais523> not as famous as Birmingham, though
18:51:57 <ehird> ais523: well all we have is a shitty abbey and a market
18:51:59 <ehird> it's pretty boring
18:54:37 <fizzie> We were planning an UK trip that might generally speaking involve that region of the country, although it's not yet clear whether it would be this August or sometime next Spring.
18:54:55 <oklopol_> hey then maybe you can have tea with ehird!
18:55:05 <fizzie> It sounds a bit too bizarroid.
18:55:16 <ehird> oklopol_: i don't much like tea
18:55:35 <ehird> also, yeah, i think that would cause like, world ending things
19:01:38 <ehird> fizzie: i'll like, put a postcard on a bench for you
19:01:41 <ehird> also: it sucks up here
19:01:51 <ehird> the weather's bad and the places are boring, why do you want to come
19:01:59 <ehird> stay in finland finland is awesome
19:02:45 <Asztal_> there's a Hexham Close near me, so I'd heard the word.
19:02:50 <Asztal_> anyone heard of Baxenden? :)
19:03:24 <ais523> hmm... a #esoteric meetup would be pretty awesome, in a sense
19:03:43 <ais523> but people are so different in RL to IRC, I find
19:03:54 <Asztal_> it's the source of Holland's Pies (by which I don't mean dutch pies)
19:03:54 <fizzie> At least as far as the weather goes, I'm not sure how "awesome" it is here. It's one thing if we'd actually have a *real* winter, but here at the southern end it's so bleh.
19:04:00 <ehird> I'm incredibly shy IRL.
19:04:34 <ehird> fizzie: dude, you just don't know. finland >>>> uk, ok.
19:05:09 <ais523> hmm... someone calculated the corresponding constant for doubles, it's 0x5FE6EB50C7B537AA
19:05:24 <ehird> 0x5fe6eb50c7b537aa
19:05:27 <ehird> uppercase is for weenies
19:06:24 <lament> case-sensitivity is for doofi
19:06:31 * ais523 suddenly gets a ridiculous vision
19:06:35 <ais523> CamelCase hex, for grouping
19:06:41 <fizzie> bc's "ibase=16" hex input accepts only uppercase, which is the suck. (It interprets /^[a-f]/ as variables, and other lowercase-containing stuff is a syntax error.)
19:07:50 <fizzie> ais523: Maybe you could use the subscript numbers to make the groupings more readable. 0xAβbβ
Cdef. Although those are a bit *too* small.
19:10:33 <fizzie> Well, for decimal numbers, then. 1,234,567.00 β β2ββ5ββ.ββ
19:11:00 <ais523> oh dear, this is almost turning into a good idea
19:11:05 <ais523> and it'll be a rubbish good idea
19:11:41 <fizzie> Ooh, the circled numbers go up to β³, not just 0-9.
19:11:52 <ais523> fizzie: I saw that as a square
19:12:06 <fizzie> It's CIRCLED NUMBER TWENTY.
19:12:10 <ais523> theory: write your password with Unicode characters that don't exist in any font
19:12:27 <ais523> that way, you can actually do the hunter2 thing, just with squares not asterisks
19:12:59 <ehird> 19:11 ais523: oh dear, this is almost turning into a good idea
19:12:59 <ehird> 19:11 ais523: and it'll be a rubbish good idea
19:13:28 <ais523> ehird: I think I'm winning in your favourite quote stakes at the moment
19:13:41 <ais523> unless you've favourite-quoted other people while I wasn't looking
19:13:42 <fizzie> It should be circled. My font is lacking the negative circled number variants, though.
19:15:52 <AnMaster_ipv6> fizzie, seems it isn't circled in Dejavu Sans Mono 8 at least
19:16:59 <fizzie> That's strange, because my xchat font is DejaVu Sans Mono 9, and the 20 is circled.
19:21:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> - PERL is now tested with "5-1" instead of the palindromic
19:21:25 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, why did you suggest that? I don't remember
19:21:40 <AnMaster_ipv6> I mean, did any interpreter manage to reverse the string?
19:22:05 <ais523> because it was a potential bug
19:22:06 <lifthrasiir> i think any string test on funge should consider that case
19:22:12 <ais523> writing a fungestring backwards is easy enough to do by mistake
19:23:08 <AnMaster_ipv6> since it is so common you hopefully have a function for it used by all the code that needs to pop strings
19:23:09 <ais523> ehird: why is that sacrelige?
19:23:32 <ehird> ais523: well, the basic smalltalk test is 2+3, but for minus, I'm sure there's another standard one... 7-5?
19:24:14 <ais523> ehird: what, there are specific hello worlds for testing arithmetic?
19:24:23 <ehird> in the smalltalk community, yes
19:24:24 <ais523> the idea wasn't to test -, but to test the concept of shelling out to Perl in general
19:24:43 <ehird> when you get a new box, you type 2+3, highlight it, 3-button (i forget the colours), "print it"
19:24:49 <ehird> And I'm sure there's a different one for -
19:28:22 * ais523 has come up with another esolang idea
19:28:40 <ais523> basically, I wanted to write an esolang that couldn't be written a bit at a time
19:28:48 <ais523> I wanted modular programming to be completely impossible
19:28:53 <ais523> so the idea is, instead of writing the program
19:29:00 <ais523> you give a lot of standard description of the program
19:29:00 <ehird> http://blog.last.fm/2009/04/06/mapreduce-bash-script
19:29:17 <ais523> so for a hello world, it would be things like "this program outputs mostly lowercase letters"
19:29:21 <ais523> and "this program does not loop"
19:29:48 <ais523> the idea is that the compiler would somehow brute-force the simplest program that met your descriptions, and compile that
19:30:31 <ais523> factorial might be "this program uses a lot of recursion", "this program multiplies a lot", "this program uses user input as loop counters", etc
19:30:44 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: I think it's implementable, although very inefficiently
19:30:57 <ais523> you would need to have an awfully large range of available hints for it to be TC, though
19:30:59 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, what would description for hello world look like
19:31:06 <oklopol_> undecidability is not a problem in that case.
19:31:07 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: long and complicated, I imagine
19:31:22 <ais523> I think hints are allowed to be specific, as long as they apply to the entire program
19:31:32 <ehird> chuck moore is on a rampage
19:31:33 <ehird> http://colorforth.com/vTPL.htm
19:31:33 <ais523> so "this program outputs 2 lowercase ls"
19:31:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, also what would the syntax for writing these description be? Natural language?
19:31:45 <ehird> S40 Multicomputer Chip
19:31:46 <ehird> I have been asked by TPL to remove this page. Upon due consideration, I will not.
19:31:46 <ais523> and "this program always outputs a lowercase e after a lowercase H"
19:31:47 <ehird> Spectacular chip! 40 microcomputers, each with 128 words of 18-bit memory. Each capable of 700 Mips.
19:31:50 <ehird> --http://colorforth.com/
19:31:52 <ehird> http://colorforth.com/S40.htm
19:32:10 <ais523> and I like the idea of a fixed-syntax language that resembles English, for this
19:32:29 <ais523> as in, all the hints are real English sentences with a couple of replacable parts
19:32:40 <ais523> but it doesn't try to parse them or anything, just matches against a database
19:33:06 <ais523> I want it to be able to represent at least one TC lang, probably a simple one
19:33:14 <ais523> so that lang + arbitrary input makes a TC combination
19:33:23 <ais523> whether the lang itself is TC can be left to philosophers
19:33:37 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, but there is a fixed number of possible programs directly in the language then?
19:34:06 <AnMaster_ipv6> well no, you can make it print an arbitrary number of hello world I guess
19:34:16 <ais523> infinite number, I imagine
19:34:28 <ais523> "This program likes to run 25% of its loops exactly 6 times"
19:35:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, sure this will prevent modular programming?
19:35:29 <ais523> I'm not sure how completely it could be prevented, but surely it makes it a lot more difficult
19:35:42 <ais523> and it's a fun idea for a lang whether it meets its design goals or not
19:36:18 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, but would the language itself actually be TC?
19:36:26 <ais523> AnMaster_ipv6: what does it mean for a language to be TC?
19:36:27 <ehird> 19:33 ais523: whether the lang itself is TC can be left to philosophers
19:36:27 <ehird> 19:33 ais523: whether the lang itself is TC can be left to philosophers
19:36:29 <ehird> 19:33 ais523: whether the lang itself is TC can be left to philosophers
19:36:58 <ais523> yep, there was a big raging argument on FOM about it that didn't come to a conclusion
19:37:09 <ehird> A language is TC if you can express a turing machine in it
19:37:48 <ais523> do you have to be able to express arbitrary turing machines?
19:37:54 <ais523> or just one universal turing machine?
19:38:01 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: yes
19:38:32 <MizardX> ...or write an interpreter of a turning complete langauge.
19:38:45 <ehird> that's expressing a universal turing machine
19:38:49 <ehird> via a layer of indirection
19:40:08 <ais523> yes, what I'm philosophising about atm is if the layer of indirection makes it non-TC
19:40:14 <ais523> actually, there's a lang already we can argue about
19:40:25 <ais523> assuming an unbounded playfield, is ALPACA TC?
19:40:36 <ais523> it's possible to express TC languages in ALPACA
19:40:41 <ais523> but it itself cannot run arbitrary programs
19:40:42 <ehird> you can express a UTM in it
19:41:00 <ais523> ehird: yes, you just can't express hello world
19:41:13 <ais523> you can only make a program that outputs a program that outputs hello world
19:41:37 <ais523> and being able to express any non-uncomputable program is up there in the essence of TCness, for me
19:41:38 <ehird> if you can implement a utm, that's it, tc
19:42:05 <ais523> ehird: what I'm saying is, I'm not sure if your definition is the best one
19:42:23 <ais523> ehird: how is UTM defined for this?
19:42:39 <ais523> a program that can express arbitrary turing machines?
19:42:50 <ais523> you're saying TC = can express a UTM, rather than TC = is a UTM
19:42:55 <Slereah> Like the Love Machine 9000? :o
19:42:58 <ehird> same thing, ais523
19:43:04 <ais523> that's what this argument is about
19:43:32 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, then befunge-93 is TC I think, since you could compile brainfuck code with a compiler written in b93...
19:43:37 <ais523> let me at a T command to HQ9+: HQ9+T has the usual commands, and also T which outputs the executable of a universal turing machine
19:43:44 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: not the same thing at all
19:43:58 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, you may be right, but why is it different then?
19:44:04 <ais523> ehird: that's what ALPACA's doing, though
19:44:12 <ais523> for one thing, ALPACA always terminates
19:44:20 <ais523> it just takes input, and outputs a program as its output
19:44:35 <ehird> yes, that's the compiler
19:44:37 <ais523> so you need to wonder about the TCness of the output
19:44:38 <ehird> but if you did an interpreter...
19:44:47 <AnMaster_ipv6> ais523, so my brainfuck compiler in befunge-93 is the same thing right? I think..
19:44:48 <ais523> well, it always depends on user input
19:45:01 <ehird> then alpaca+input is tc
19:45:17 <ehird> but input is just a detail
19:45:21 <ais523> but the point is, ALPACA can express a UTM even without input
19:45:22 <ehird> we can trivially say program includes input
19:45:28 <ehird> just like halts() does
19:45:31 <ais523> ehird: program vs. input is what this is all about...
19:46:26 <oklopol_> defining turing-completeness is undecidable
19:47:14 <ais523> I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I like it anyway
19:56:38 <AnMaster_ipv6> hm are there any n dimensional cellular automaton esolangs for n > 2
19:57:12 <Slereah> There's like two cellular automatons, so check those
19:57:45 <Slereah> Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.
19:57:45 <Slereah> Try waiting a few minutes and reloading."
19:57:56 <ais523> Slereah: reload instantly
19:58:04 <ais523> it's a transient bug that has been there for months
19:58:18 <Slereah> Except it doesn"'t work right now
19:58:24 <ais523> hmm... might be a different bug, then
19:59:14 <AnMaster_ipv6> "(Can't contact the database server: Too many connections (localhost))"
19:59:41 <Slereah> It's working again, I think
20:00:02 <ais523> that's because you're DDOSing it trying to see if it's working, obviously
20:00:53 <Slereah> Are we allowed one click per day?
20:01:19 <Slereah> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton#Relation_to_esoteric_programming
20:01:19 <ais523> no, of course not. You mean you're using a /GUI/ browser? That's a million times worse
20:01:41 <ais523> everyone should use the terminal, how else are you going to give all the articles a pink background? It's not as if they allow HTML
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20:04:22 * ais523 just saw http://entertainment.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/06/1654250&from=rss, and is overwhelmed
20:09:36 <ehird> ais523: i wish I was caught in that!
20:09:44 <ehird> i would have bought luxemburg
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20:20:07 <ehird> hey, I think scala has functors
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20:36:55 <ehird> http://simulatedcomicproduct.com/comics/2009-03-22-RedundantSystems.jpg
20:38:04 <oklopol_> lol my eyes parsed that as one rocket, took like an hour to get the joke :D
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20:52:44 <AnMaster_ipv6> <ehird> http://simulatedcomicproduct.com/comics/2009-03-22-RedundantSystems.jpg <-- what is that simulatedcomicproduct.com about? I read the three last comic and they seemed unconnected. But it could just be IWC-style multi-storyline. Hard to know
20:52:59 <ehird> most comics have no storyline
20:53:24 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, well, what is the theme then, it seems to vary too
20:53:34 <ehird> most comics' theme is "being funny"
20:54:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> no need to go archive trawling on the other hand :)
20:55:24 <oklopol_> ehird: have you made any more of your awesome comics?
20:55:39 <ehird> oklopol_: no, series of 9
20:55:43 <ehird> a perfectly unround number
21:03:06 <ehird> my thumb keeps shaking
21:04:48 <ehird> yes but this is scary
21:05:17 <oklopol_> i mean i just grind and grind until it starts hurting too much, then i stop for a bit and continue again
21:05:20 <Sgeo> I'm wondering if maybe I should have gotten braces. My teeth look all strange
21:05:40 <ehird> i have a tooth that has needed taking out for, um, a month now?
21:06:23 <oklopol_> i got braces for my upper teeth, but it was such a hassle i refused to take them for my lower ones
21:07:43 <oklopol_> also i had this thing i needed to keep in my mouth whenever i was not eating, for like two years
21:07:52 <oklopol_> and it seems i got a bit addicted to it or something
21:08:04 <oklopol_> since i still get these dreams where i don't know where i put it
21:08:26 <oklopol_> or dreams where i've had that thing in my mouth for the ~4 years i haven't needed it
21:09:18 <oklopol_> i don't know what it was, one of the four braces types i've had.
21:10:25 <oklopol_> straightening my teeth was only like a 7-year project, so would be kinda cool if my grinding started the process again, i've heard from unreliable sources that can happen.
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21:19:43 <lament> can you straighten teeth at any age, or is it worthless past a certain point?
21:22:56 <Sgeo> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/routine-psychological-evaluations-by-dr-glass
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22:45:27 <kerlo> if ((olevel >= 0) and (nlevel >= 0) and (olevel > nlevel)) or (((olevel < 0) or (nlevel < 0)) and (nlevel > olevel)):
22:45:42 <kerlo> Yeah, seems pretty esoteric to me.
22:53:54 <Deewiant> if sign(olevel) == sign(nlevel) and olevel > nlevel:
22:54:45 <Deewiant> Oh, the other way around at the end
22:55:12 <Deewiant> if sign(olevel) == sign(nlevel) and abs(olevel) > abs(nlevel):
23:00:01 <oklopol_> if olevel=-1 and nlevel=1, then ihope's says true and yours says false
23:00:50 <Deewiant> Hmm, can't see much simplification opportunity then
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23:03:41 <oklopol_> well correcting it into an and might work be a good simplification
23:04:54 <oklopol_> well if olevel>=0 and nlevel>=0 and olevel>nlevel or nlevel>olevel
23:05:24 <Deewiant> if ((olevel >= 0) and (nlevel >= 0) and (olevel > nlevel)) or (not ((olevel >= 0) and (nlevel >= 0)) and (nlevel > olevel)):
23:06:01 <oklopol_> well yes, that's why you can simplify it.
23:07:29 <oklopol_> if the first doesn't trigger, then either the seconds one's first is true, or you have no info about the second one, therefor no i don't think you can simplify it
23:07:36 <Deewiant> (a && b) || (!a && !b && notequal)
23:08:22 <oklopol_> i guess by directly i meant taking notequal into account
23:09:26 <Deewiant> Since notequal actually has to be true in both
23:09:38 <ais523> if you translated that into INTERCAL, it probably wouldn't be much more complicated than a typical greater-than in INTERCAL
23:09:42 <fizzie> Number of bots submitted to that AI tournament thing as a function of time (sorry for the silly month/day-formatted labels) -- can you guess the deadline: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/bottime.png
23:10:18 <Deewiant> if ((olevel >= 0 and nlevel >= 0) == (olevel > nlevel) && olevel != nlevel):
23:10:54 <fizzie> Yeah. Well, five minutes past midnight was when the returning system closed.
23:11:40 <fizzie> Right. Well, I guess it is EEST.
23:12:00 <Ilari> A.K.A. Timezone Charlie. :-)
23:12:25 <Deewiant> Hmm, right, EET/EEST weren't ambiguous so I guess I won't be tremendously annoyed at their use
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23:14:09 <Ilari> One issue with those timezone codes is that fractional-hour zones don't have codes and also that UTC+13h and UTC+14h (a.k.a. Y2K timezone) don't have labels.
23:14:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Closeup of last day: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/bottime2.png
23:14:46 <Deewiant> Well, it's not an issue with the existing codes. :-P
23:14:48 <oklopol_> Deewiant: are you sure that's clearer :D
23:14:57 <Deewiant> oklopol_: I didn't say it was :-P
23:15:14 <Deewiant> oklopol_: It /is/ simpler though
23:16:08 <fizzie> There was something like 10 submissions (out of the total 39) during the last hour.
23:16:36 <oklopol_> Deewiant: i guess it is, on second thought
23:16:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: And looks like around 19 during the last two.
23:17:00 <fizzie> Something like that, yes.
23:17:49 <fizzie> Last time I didn't bother with graphing since I just accepted stuff via email, but this time there was a System for returning the bots, so I got to graph the file timestamps.
23:22:20 <fizzie> It is a bit of a lie in the sense that the System let them submit multiple times, with newer ones replacing older ones, but the timestamp is for the last submission, so possibly some of the last-possible-minute people had already returned something, and were just making last-minute-fixups.
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23:29:53 <Ilari> fizzie: Goblin or something else? :-)
23:32:09 <fizzie> Ilari: Oh, it's purely hand-crafted Perl.
23:32:32 <fizzie> A single CGI script, to be exact. The lo-tech solution.
23:32:50 <fizzie> I even returned results with Content-type: text/plain since I didn't want to be a web-designer. So retro.
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23:56:34 <AnMaster_ipv6> <Deewiant> if sign(olevel) == sign(nlevel) and abs(olevel) > abs(nlevel): <-- sign? no such function
23:56:50 <ehird> Note that implicit conversions are not applicable because they are ambiguous:
23:56:50 <ehird> both method int2Integer in object Predef of type (Int)java.lang.Integer
23:56:52 <ehird> and method intWrapper in object Predef of type (Int)scala.runtime.RichInt
23:56:54 <ehird> are possible conversion functions from Int(2) to AnyRef
23:56:56 <ehird> it sure is nice to have good errors
23:56:59 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: how do you know?
23:57:15 <ehird> admittedly, there's no sign() in python but you can write it
00:01:39 <olsner> lol you can't write functions in python
00:02:02 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, and yes I saw it was python and tried it in python
00:02:45 <ehird> Meaning: Taking type parameter T, a function taking T and returning T.
00:02:57 <ehird> To clarify, (Int, Int)String would be "Takes two ints and returns a string."
00:03:12 <ehird> And [T](T, Int)Int would be "taking a type parameter T, takes a T and an Int and returns an Int."
00:03:20 <ehird> Of course, you don't need to specify [T] as it's inferred from the argument.
00:03:31 <ehird> It is like Haskell's "forall a."
00:03:43 <ehird> Scala is similar to Haskell.
00:03:50 <ehird> It runs on the JVM and has many OOP features.
00:03:56 <ehird> And also a lot of Haskell-esque things.
00:04:01 <ehird> And a lot of Ruby-esque things.
00:04:36 <AnMaster_ipv6> didn't scala do some publicity stunt with a suicide recently</bad_taste>
00:05:07 <ehird> Tony Morris is back to being annoying on reddit.
00:05:19 <ehird> The guy who was going to off himself.
00:05:28 <lament> did he ever post an apology?
00:05:41 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: The post saying he shot himself was a troll.
00:06:10 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, so the police managed to find him in advance of that or
00:06:12 <ehird> And the whole thing was that he'd said he'd going to on IRC (and email simultaneously: it was automated), had already taken his motorbike and couldn't be found.
00:06:18 <ehird> AnMaster_ipv6: Yes. The police found him.
00:06:36 <lament> ehird: do you know what happened since? Did he post anything?
00:06:42 <lament> apart from reddit trolls
00:06:56 <AnMaster_ipv6> ehird, a cron job would have made sense though for it
00:07:02 <ehird> lament: He replied to the message saying he'd been found saying he's doing much better now and then returned to insulting christians on reddit
00:07:03 <lament> he's in #Scala so i assume he apologized somehow
00:07:25 <ehird> lament: An apology was never expected afaik,.
00:07:40 <lament> they were talking about ostracizing him
00:07:55 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:07:55 <ehird> Right, it's lament's-troll-reality.
00:07:55 <lament> when they were searching for him
00:08:03 <lament> eh, check the logs if you want
00:08:11 <ehird> They never said anything of the sort, and I was there for it.
00:09:10 <oerjan> so, basically, if he later really commits suicide, no one will care?
00:09:34 <ehird> lament: The most I heard was one of the people who regularly talked to him saying they were going to shout at him for saying he'd do it.
00:09:51 <ehird> Based on your less-than-immaculate reputation for, uh, truth, I'm inclined to believe my, more probable, version.
00:10:22 * oerjan needs to recall what it was about
00:10:36 <lament> eh, i could check the logs for the exact quote, but it's easier to just ban you
00:10:46 <ehird> Feel free to do either.
00:12:04 <oerjan> you would think the GM had learned by now ;)
00:12:14 <ehird> lament: I'm waiting!
00:14:50 <oerjan> AnMaster_ipv6: also, my evil thought is known as the story of "The boy who cried wolf"
00:20:56 * Sgeo wants to play Paranoia again at some point
00:22:14 <ehird> "If Google would have actually put a fraction of the effort that they put into dreaming up the April's Fools joke into actually *doing* something about AGI , we'd be there by now."
00:23:31 <Sgeo> A fraction of a fraction of the effort they normally do?
00:24:03 <oerjan> well, i'm sure their server clusters would be useful for it
00:28:50 <ehird> "First of all," Akon said. "First of all. Does anyone have any plausible hypothesis, any reasonable interpretation of what we know, under which the aliens do *not* eat their own children?"
00:28:51 <ehird> β Eliezer Yudkowsky, Three Worlds Collide, "The Baby-Eating Aliens"
00:31:35 <oerjan> hm the title sounds like one of my theories for why aliens don't show up in public
00:32:13 <oerjan> (basically, we are so prejudiced that we would hate them if we knew their culture)
00:32:53 <oerjan> (to be clear, for much less than eating babies)
00:33:38 <ehird> http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/the-babyeating-aliens.html first part of http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/three-worlds-collide.html
00:33:46 <ehird> which is, in typical yudkowsky fashion, about rationality.
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00:44:04 <ehird> "And ancient environmentalist arguments about population control, plus... oh, dear. I don't think they've realized that Adolf Hitler is a bad guy."
00:44:11 <ehird> (from the second part)
00:51:40 <ehird> [[Akon flipped a hand. "I don't think we'll run short of volunteers to watch disgusting alien pornography. Just post it to the ship's 4chan, and check after a few hours to see if anything was modded up to +5 Insightful." ]]
01:20:52 <oklopol_> oerjan: i like it, maybe you can put that in your comic
01:21:17 <oklopol_> "i read adolf hitler is a dead guy" and i was like wut
01:21:25 <oklopol_> but then i realized my silly mistake.
01:22:19 <oklopol_> oerjan: comic for you, rest for no one
01:22:37 <oklopol_> well "silly" was for ehird, and also "then"
01:23:41 * oerjan refrains from believing anything oklopol_ just said
01:24:15 <oklopol_> haven't i told you like a million times i want you to make a comic
01:24:28 <oklopol_> because if you made one, it would awesome (as a verb)
01:25:11 <oerjan> although if you reduce that million a bit, i'm not entirely sure
01:25:17 <oklopol_> and that comic thing was a reference to this
01:25:57 <oklopol_> actually i think it was my catch phrase at some point, so probably more.
01:26:12 <oklopol_> anyway sleep time, you get working on your mathketeers
01:44:10 <olsner> very much sleep-time indeed, 3 am dammit
01:44:29 <olsner> and here I'm supposed to get up to work later this morning
01:45:37 <olsner> very cool novella about the aliens btw
02:01:42 <Sgeo> I think I just thought of what it might be a metaphor for, but I might be completely misunderstanding
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04:01:05 <kerlo> oklopol_: do you have a real name?
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08:08:05 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/?leak <== ALL Fine Structure fans, READ
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14:21:49 <victor______> hello! i just wrote cli bf debugger. does anybody know what to do with it ? :)
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15:14:24 <Slereah> <victor______> hello! i just wrote cli bf debugger. does anybody know what to do with it ? :) < try eating it
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15:17:20 <victor______> thanx i try maybe. i mean i can put it somewhere if anybody need
15:18:04 <Slereah> Well, you can link it on the wiki
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16:16:46 <victor______> i just didn't found one for command line. mm. 'next instruction', 'set breakpoint' etc
16:18:18 <AnMaster> as in break when a specific cell is written/read
16:19:26 <AnMaster> so what lang did you write the debugger in?
16:20:34 <AnMaster> new here or just long time idler?
16:20:51 <AnMaster> (A nick like that I think I would remember)
16:21:18 <AnMaster> so, have you made this debugger public? It sounds interesting.
16:21:44 <AnMaster> though I don't know much perl.
16:22:30 <victor______> yes, but i'm looking for free ftp to put it. it terrible, all services needs javascript enabled
16:23:00 <AnMaster> if it is a single perl file, why not use a pastebin
16:24:21 <AnMaster> no criticism, I don't know enough perl be sure if that is a good or bad thing.
16:25:14 <victor______> "real programmers who use fortran for strings" don't need strict
16:25:47 <AnMaster> fortran for strings? I'm afraid I don't get that part of the reference
16:26:33 <AnMaster> (C, Scheme, Erlang, Bash I know well, Befunge98 too, haskell I want to learn as soon as I have some free time for that)
16:26:54 <AnMaster> (oh and I can read python and a few other langs too)
16:26:58 <victor______> ive found howto about real programmers in isolnag today :)
16:27:28 <AnMaster> victor______, hm "print "[1B\r" . (' ' x 50);" looks odd
16:27:59 <AnMaster> it looks like an embedded "char missing" here
16:28:35 <AnMaster> well it should work, but not in firefox :P
16:28:41 <AnMaster> (where I was viewing the paste)
16:29:25 <victor______> its possible to rewrite it using ANSI::color module
16:29:56 <AnMaster> that would mean I would have to deal with cpan :(
16:30:30 <AnMaster> ah no, this distro does have a perl-core/Term-ANSIColor package
16:31:28 <AnMaster> no need. I'm not heavily into bf anyway, there are others here (seem to be idling atm though) who may be more interested
16:31:41 <AnMaster> ^bf +++++[->+++++[->+++++<]<]>>----[->+>+<<]>-----------------.---.>.
16:33:50 <AnMaster> victor______, but the debugger looks nice, haven't tried it, since 1) I don't know perl well enough 2) I am paranoid 3) no offence meant.
16:34:50 <AnMaster> well I'll just create another user I guess.
16:36:01 <victor______> and, if you were looking at the sources i already know your root pass :)
16:36:14 <AnMaster> http://dpaste.com/25639/plain/ is mangled it seems
16:39:04 <AnMaster> victor______, when run in interpreter mode do you optimise the program btw?
16:39:41 <victor______> except sum simple things like caching ']' and '['
16:40:11 <AnMaster> hm tried the lost kingdom program in it? (a text adventure in bf, file is around 1.7 MB or something iirc)
16:40:28 <AnMaster> http://jonripley.com/i-fiction/games/LostKingdomBF.html
16:42:34 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: but that is compiled from BFBASIC... :p
16:42:52 <AnMaster> but it is a good way to test bf interpreters
16:43:10 <AnMaster> I mean, somewhat like a acid test for bf interpreters
16:43:25 <lifthrasiir> i'd like to see bigger brainfuck program, so it can be used as milestone for optimization.
16:43:47 <lifthrasiir> (as like mycology suite have been informally used for funge-98 performance test)
16:44:30 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, well, lostking.b can be optimised optimised even on a bf level iirc
16:44:58 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, also I prefer to compile bf really
16:46:22 * AnMaster waits for perl -i bfg.pl LostKingdomBF/LostKng.b
16:48:14 <victor______> Error: Program is too large, maximum is 65535 operations.
16:49:11 <AnMaster> $ perl bfg.pl -p -i LostKingdomBF/LostKng.b
16:49:24 <AnMaster> and yes I put the -i in the wrong place indeed
16:49:42 <victor______> preprocess. it is necessary because it includes '!' and it is end of code like in dbfi
16:49:55 <victor______> but with '-p' it skip comments, insert includes, etc
16:50:38 <AnMaster> well you should skip every unknown char in bf
16:51:00 <AnMaster> what value does that push to the program
16:51:38 <AnMaster> what do you think about befunge btw?
16:52:44 <AnMaster> ok. A self modifying two dimensional language.
16:52:57 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge
16:54:27 <victor______> awib segfaults when tried to compile lostkindom
16:56:03 <AnMaster> victor______, I wrote a "bf-to-C" compiler once, it worked and so on and optimised code somewhat, it compiled everything into one function though, when compiling the resulting C file for lostkingdom, GCC ran out of memory
16:57:02 <AnMaster> anwyay... maybe I should try again now that GCC 4.3 is stable on gentoo...
16:57:38 <victor______> is let gcc to segfault only once using -fast-math and -whole-program
16:58:18 <AnMaster> I'm sorry, but I didn't understand that..
16:58:43 <AnMaster> well true. 4.3.2 is stable here on Gentoo x86_64 (which I run) at least
16:58:58 <victor______> my english is too bad? i learned it only from perl
16:59:13 <AnMaster> (I'm not a native speaker either anyway)
17:00:21 <oklopol_> you learned english from perl? :D
17:00:24 <AnMaster> also why would I want to use -fwhole-program, most of the time it doesn't help very much, and it requires a special build system.
17:01:42 <victor______> i tried to use it once, it was c++ programm with a lot of templates so main.cpp includes almost everything
17:08:17 <AnMaster> as for -ffast-math, unless you know exactly how the program works and how it will be affected it would be a bad idea
17:09:22 <victor______> i knew. it was a boring math program partly written in assembler which had only two target users
17:13:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm going to merge the exact bounds stuff back into cfunge trunk, so that other branch will soon be deprecated.
17:16:24 <AnMaster> next item: error handling cleanup
17:16:37 <AnMaster> less random fputs and abort, and some central system
17:17:26 <ehird> 15:24 victor______: i think it won't copile with strict :)
17:17:48 <AnMaster> ehird, it's rather eso isn't it?
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17:18:21 <ais523> AnMaster: that was fast, and hi
17:21:43 <AnMaster> ais523, since you know gcc so well, any idea why -fgcse-sm and -fgcse-las are not enabled at any -O level by default?
17:21:48 <AnMaster> they don't seem to break anything
17:22:14 <AnMaster> and for cfunge they offer a measurable speed-up on certain processors (such as one of mine)
17:22:15 <ais523> common subexpression elimination can make programs slower
17:22:35 <AnMaster> ais523, certain types of gcse is enabled by -O and higher though
17:22:45 <ais523> presumably those are the ones more likely to help
17:22:50 <AnMaster> When -fgcse-lm is enabled, global common subexpression elimination will attempt to move loads which are only killed by stores into themselves. This allows a loop
17:22:50 <AnMaster> containing a load/store sequence to be changed to a load outside the loop, and a copy/store within the loop.
17:23:15 <AnMaster> When -fgcse-sm is enabled, a store motion pass is run after global common subexpression elimination. This pass will attempt to move stores out of loops. When used
17:23:15 <AnMaster> in conjunction with -fgcse-lm, loops containing a load/store sequence can be changed to a load before the loop and a store after the loop.
17:23:19 <AnMaster> When -fgcse-las is enabled, the global common subexpression elimination pass eliminates redundant loads that come after stores to the same memory location (both
17:23:20 <AnMaster> partial and full redundancies).
17:23:44 <AnMaster> ais523, at least the latter I can't see how it would slow down things
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17:25:25 <AnMaster> ais523, also we had someone new here today, who wrote a brainfuck debugger in perl heh
17:25:33 <AnMaster> <victor______> http://dpaste.com/25639/
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17:30:40 <AnMaster> ais523, what would you call a error/warning/notice handling code file. errors.c seems wrong...
17:30:52 <AnMaster> and it isn't a full "logging framework" or such
17:31:14 * ais523 steals naming ideas from the C standard
17:33:41 <ais523> no, it's a term defined by the standard
17:33:45 <ais523> that's used to represent errors and warnings
17:33:55 <ais523> lots of things require a diagnostic, according to the standard
17:34:04 <ais523> which means that a compiler must give an error or warning if you try them
17:34:10 <ais523> that's what -pedantic does
17:34:14 <ais523> it adds all the required warnings to the code
17:34:21 <ais523> in the form of "warning: ANSI C requires..."
17:34:33 <ais523> the gcc people think they're silly warnings because it's obvious what you meant
17:34:44 <ais523> but technically complying with the standard is always a good idea IMO
17:34:51 <ais523> at least, if it's a sensible standard
17:36:08 <AnMaster> btw why is it: fputs(string, file); but fprintf(file, string, ...)
17:36:14 <AnMaster> I mean, why not always put file first
17:36:28 <AnMaster> I see why putting it last in fprintf would be an issue yes
17:36:31 <ais523> except in fprintf, where that would be an issue
17:36:45 <AnMaster> what is the reason for putting it last?
17:37:24 <ais523> well, all the file I/O puts it last
17:37:34 <ais523> presumably it's so you can just put a ,file at the end of the command and an f at the start
17:37:44 <ais523> and C89 wasn't designed to be consistent, but to model common practice
17:37:57 <ais523> so presumably that weird practice sprung up before it was standardised
17:37:57 <AnMaster> ais523, that would be as easy as f at the start and file, just after (
17:38:12 <ais523> don't ask me to justify C to you, though, I didn't invent it
17:42:57 <AnMaster> ais523, what is a safe way to print "out of memory" and exit.
17:43:14 <AnMaster> I mean, I need to pre-allocate in some way I guess
17:43:21 <ais523> if you use write to print a constant string, it should be safe
17:43:32 <ais523> using write means that you don't have trouble with stdio buffering
17:43:49 <ais523> and constant string means it's loaded into memory already, so you don't have to allocate the string you're printing
17:44:09 <AnMaster> fputs("FATAL: Out of memory!\n", stderr);
17:44:34 <ais523> probably the stdio buffers won't be extended anyway
17:44:38 <AnMaster> ais523, any reason to not use fputs()?
17:44:41 <ais523> but in theory, I think an interp's allowed to allocate them lazily
17:44:56 <ais523> it's a very unlikely problem to come up in practice, though
17:45:12 <ais523> (if you're really insane, you could statically allocate the stdio buffer for stderr yourself, to avoid the implementation coming up with one0
17:45:52 <AnMaster> ais523, no, and I do that for stdout already in cfunge if -b is passed
17:46:00 <AnMaster> you would say -b is insane I bet...
17:46:28 <ais523> -b = you allocate your own stdio buffers yourself, rather than relying on the defaults?
17:46:37 <AnMaster> ais523, -b = fully buffered output
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17:47:23 <AnMaster> make a large difference in mycology when not redirecting stdout to /dev/null
17:47:50 <AnMaster> ais523, meh, stderr is fd 2 right?
17:51:34 * AnMaster tries to remember how to use vfprintf
17:52:24 <AnMaster> personally I very seldom write code using variable argument count to functions
17:53:36 -!- und3f has left (?).
17:55:55 <ais523> AnMaster: run va_start, pass the result to vfprintf, run va_end
17:56:09 <ais523> va_end is a no-op on more or less all architectures, but the ones that need it need it badly
17:56:56 <ais523> I'm just repeating the standard c.l.c answer
17:57:23 <ais523> presumably it would be useful on an architecture with strange calling conventions
17:58:11 <ais523> <C Standard Rationale> "va_end must also be called from within the body of the function having the variable argument list. In many implementations, this is a do-nothing operation; but those implementations that need it probably need it badly."
17:58:30 <Deewiant> Sounds like they don't know either :-P
18:10:47 <AnMaster> I was just complaining about having to loop it up..
18:11:37 * AnMaster wonders if there is no better way than:
18:11:38 <AnMaster> void diag_error_format(const char* format, ...)
18:12:00 <Deewiant> And it should be fputc, not putc
18:12:28 <Deewiant> Oh right, putc is that stupid thing which is the same as fputc
18:12:53 <AnMaster> It is not advisable to mix calls to output functions from the stdio library with low-level calls to write(2) for the file descriptor associated with the same output
18:12:53 <AnMaster> stream; the results will be undefined and very probably not what you want.
18:13:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, undesirable to mix
18:13:12 <ais523> are you stdio-writing to stderr?
18:13:18 <AnMaster> ais523, so why did you suggest write() for fatal
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18:13:34 <ais523> you can mix safely if you do fflush(stderr) in between
18:13:37 <AnMaster> ais523, doing fprintf and such to stderr
18:13:50 <ais523> in that case, it's probably safest to just fputs the string
18:14:21 <AnMaster> but isn't stderr unbuffered anyway?
18:14:45 <ais523> I can't remember if it's unbuffered or line-buffered by default
18:14:53 <ais523> and I can't remember if the default's the same on all systems, either
18:17:12 <AnMaster> why does gcc hate returning results from GCC docs, and prefer to return irrelevant ones from mailing list.. meh
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18:38:13 <fizzie> I seriously should not have hyped that ISP of mine, they went and broke the interwebs today. (First time in the 8 months I've been a customer, so it's not exactly *frequent*, but still.)
18:45:20 <AnMaster> another question, any way to set ulimits for a process you debug under gdb
18:50:05 <fizzie> Er, what I just said about broken interwebs is directly related to fungot's non-appearance. It @s at a socket read error, and is not in a crontab or anything.
18:50:07 <ais523> AnMaster: you could use the ulimit syscall inside the process
18:52:24 <fizzie> Don't know about gdb + ulimit. If you don't mind changing the program being debugged, adding a suitable strlimit call at start of main should be enough, though.
18:52:39 <ais523> ulimit's the old interface to the same syscall
18:53:27 <fizzie> The AI tournament I've been incessantly bothering you about uses a JNI-callable blob which uses setrlimit to implement the "each player has one hour of thinking-time per game" feature.
18:54:07 <ais523> could you add your own JNI-callable blob to cancel the limit?
18:54:10 <ais523> or are they using hard limit?
18:54:37 <fizzie> ais523: Assuming unbroken Java sandbox implementation, no, since they run under a securitymanager with no privileges.
18:54:53 <fizzie> And it is also the hard limit, I think, so it can't be raised again.
18:55:38 <fizzie> Anyway, I could've of course done the ulimit before starting the Java VM, but I also need to call getrusage to report to the programs how much thinking time they have left.
18:56:07 <AnMaster> rlimit.rlim_cur = (rlimit.rlim_cur > 25000) ? 25000 : rlimit.rlim_cur;
18:56:30 <AnMaster> yes I know it is a silly way to write it
18:58:06 <fizzie> There's the sequence point inherent in ?:, but I let ais523 to decide.
18:58:35 <ais523> you're using the value twice to the right of the =, those are both reads so legal
18:58:44 <ais523> and for the write, the value written depends on the value read
18:59:48 <fizzie> ais523: How about "foo = (++foo > 42) ? 6667 : foo;"? There's a sequence point between the evaluation of ?:'s conditional and the selected operand, after all.
19:00:30 <ais523> fizzie: that's legal I think, foo = foo is legal, ++foo ? anything : anything is legal if the anythings are legal
19:01:20 <fizzie> (In the sense of "okay, good to know", not in the sense of "yes, you got it right".)
19:03:54 <AnMaster> gdb is failing step when there is an inline asm statement in the way it seems
19:04:43 <ais523> yes, longjmp confuses it too
19:04:52 <ais523> if you put a breakpoint on the other side and continue instead, though, it's fine
19:05:38 <AnMaster> ais523, it fails because there is a label inside the asm block
19:05:43 <AnMaster> but I need that since it contains a loop
19:05:50 <AnMaster> but it seems to think it is a new function
19:06:54 <AnMaster> ais523, this was funny: <ProN00b> can i expect a slowdown of only 1000x ?
19:07:14 <AnMaster> ais523, someone finding out his platform lacked hardware watch point support in gdb
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19:26:38 <ehird> 17:38 fizzie: I seriously should not have hyped that ISP of mine, they went and broke the interwebs today. (First time in the 8 months I've been a customer, so it's not exactly *frequent*, but still.)
19:26:45 <ehird> mine does that daily
19:26:49 * ehird is gonna buy wrt router todays
19:26:56 <ehird> 16:44 AnMaster: void diag_oom(void) {
19:26:56 <ehird> 16:44 AnMaster: fputs("FATAL: Out of memory!\n", stderr);
19:26:57 <ehird> 16:44 AnMaster: abort();
19:27:09 <ehird> AnMaster: if you're oom, chances are you don't get to print
19:27:28 <AnMaster> ehird, see other related discussion...
19:27:30 <ehird> malloc actually returning NULL is vanishingly rare and you'll have bigger problems than cfunge
19:27:38 <Robdgreat> fizzie: they got word you'd hyped them and wanted to discredit you
19:27:45 <ehird> AnMaster: also, you can save a branch each allocation by not checking malloc
19:27:48 <ais523> ehird: the trick is to try to survive on a null malloc
19:27:48 <ehird> which should save a lot
19:27:53 <ehird> so IMO i'd remove the check
19:27:55 <ehird> ais523: yes, but this is for cfunge
19:28:05 <ehird> ais523: null mallocs happen basically never
19:28:13 <ehird> and when you do, you have problems bigger than cfunge exiting gracefully
19:28:24 <ehird> and you get a speedup by not checking
19:28:42 <AnMaster> the trick to survive may be to free some memory I guess. Since you are about to exit anyway just free some huge memory pool
19:28:55 <ehird> Nobody ever listens...
19:29:22 <ehird> guys have i mentioned scala is great?
19:29:59 <ais523> AnMaster: the trick is not to call anything that might malloc
19:31:01 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I guess free() might call malloc
19:31:10 <ehird> i think that's very unlikely.
19:31:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well not guaranteed afaik
19:31:22 <ehird> I'd punch anyone who made a malloc impl that requires free to allocate
19:39:36 <AnMaster> anyway if you malloc() a large block and get NULL you most probably have some free memory around
19:39:46 <AnMaster> and then I'm talking of 100 kb or so
19:40:15 <AnMaster> (of course it might be you don't, but it is rather likely)
19:42:49 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/index.html
19:42:54 <ehird> people are as obsessed as me!
19:47:53 <AnMaster> fputs("FATAL: Out of memory at " __FILE__ ":" CF_CPP_STRINGIFY(__LINE__) ": " m_reason "\n", stderr); \
19:48:07 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc compiled: DIAG_OOM() without complaining
19:48:17 <ehird> the argument is the null string
19:48:19 <olsner> AnMaster: empty argument is valid
19:48:38 <AnMaster> that doesn't make much sense though.
19:49:41 <olsner> just gets expanded to ... ": " /* empty string from argument m_reason */ "\n"
19:53:00 <AnMaster> FATAL: Out of memory at ../src/interpreter.c:630:
19:53:18 <AnMaster> (changed a bit, and using ulimits to test this=
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20:30:25 <fizzie> Here and there, everywhere.
20:31:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, 1) where is fungot? 2) I found a solution to that "want %rsp for funge stack, but breaks in signal handlers"
20:31:45 <fizzie> 1) Still offline, but since the interwebs seem to be working, I guess I could bring it back. 2) Oh, what's the solution?
20:32:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, I suspect sigaltstack(2) is the solution
20:33:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, possibly sigaction() with SA_ONSTACK
20:34:34 <fizzie> Yes, although I wonder if I only need them for signals I actually want handled. If it's a handle-as-default, die-or-whatever signal, maybe it won't crunch up with a very nonstandard %rsp.
20:34:36 <Ilari> What "want %rsp for funge stack, but breaks in signal handlers"
20:35:18 <fizzie> Ilari: I was just wondering if I could abuse the normal stack pointer register to work as the funge stack in jitfunge-generated code, at least in portions that don't call any external functions.
20:35:24 <ehird> fizzie: WHERE IS FUNGOT
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20:36:13 <AnMaster> each part would monitor the others, and if one went down another would connect and replace it
20:36:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you suggest instead?
20:37:10 <ehird> Your idea lacks interest; mine requires much less effort for the same amount of interest.
20:37:55 <ehird> So, logically, mine is the better option.
20:38:15 <ehird> Because the interest level is the same and it has the advantage of requiring less effort.
20:38:18 <ehird> This is rather trivial.
20:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot uptime advantage of mine
20:38:32 <Ilari> fizzie: If you could guarantee that code doesn't generate any hardware faults and that its quite quick (say, few cs at most) you could block signals and unblock them later. Also has advantage of not calling stuff in odd contexts.
20:38:37 <ehird> Fungot has been down, oh, 3 times.
20:38:44 <ehird> A distributed system would be down more.
20:38:47 <AnMaster> Ilari, he depends on catching sigsegv...
20:38:48 <ehird> They are brittle in small sizes.
20:39:12 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be massively distributed of course, every person in here would run one of them
20:39:21 <Ilari> Well, Maybe have dedicated stack for SIGSEGV...
20:39:41 <fizzie> Yes, with the sigaltstack trickery.
20:39:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, wonder if it breaks stuff though
20:40:45 <fizzie> I have not really seen much reliable documentation about how safe it is to mess around %rsp (well, %esp in my code). It certainly could break some types of interrupt-handling, but I guess in the sensible systems I target they use a different, kernel-side stack.
20:42:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could ignore some signals you didn't care about, and provide dummy ones for the other ones
20:42:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, and you would still need to restore it whenever you go back to the C++ part of the program
20:48:20 <fizzie> Hrm. I guess I'll still have to try it, in the off chance I do get back to jitfunge mode some day.
20:54:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, you basically gave it up?
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20:57:22 <fizzie> No, no, it's not yet that far gone; I would've moved it to my ~/src/abandoned/ in that case.
20:58:58 <ehird> but jitting befunge has Been Done before
20:59:14 <AnMaster> ehird, or, show me the source in question
20:59:32 <ehird> It was on the wiki as a dead link.
20:59:42 <AnMaster> well, then we don't really know
21:00:29 <fizzie> It's certainly not a very original idea, that's for sure. A Mycology-okay jit-interpreter is something that should exist, anyway.
21:00:32 <ehird> Could be pink fuckin' elephants, AnMaster.
21:00:38 <fizzie> I guess I should work on it, otherwise someone will STEAL it. But I have too much to do right now, with this AI tournament nonsense (them scripts are having some issues) and such.
21:00:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well that would be how they reproduce
21:00:58 <ais523> fizzie: are you participating in the tournament, or running it, or both
21:01:08 <fizzie> ais523: Just running it.
21:01:22 <fizzie> "39 bot(s) => 1482 match(es) -- so far played: 330"
21:01:37 <fizzie> It's proceeding reasonably, there have just been... issues.
21:02:00 <AnMaster> <Robdgreat> fizzie: they got word you'd hyped them and wanted to discredit you <-- what was that about hm
21:02:14 <AnMaster> (and if it was private it shouldn't have been in channel duh)
21:02:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: Sure it made.
21:02:17 <ehird> fizzie: what is the game?
21:02:29 <ehird> AnMaster: sure it had context
21:02:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, not to me... and I did look at your 20 last lines
21:02:32 <ehird> it just went back further than 5 lines
21:02:38 <ehird> you should extend that buffer
21:02:58 <fizzie> "fizzie> I seriously should not have hyped that ISP of mine, they went and broke the interwebs today. (First time in the 8 months I've been a customer, so it's not exactly *frequent*, but still.)"
21:03:16 <Ilari> 1482? Isn't all pairs once would be 1481 matches?
21:03:34 <Robdgreat> it was only a few lines up that that line was repeated by ehird
21:03:50 <AnMaster> Robdgreat, I thought it was about the tournament you see
21:04:05 <ehird> 21:02 ehird: fizzie: what is the game?
21:04:10 <fizzie> Ilari: My count would put all-pairs-once as 741; but this is all-pairs-twice; each bot plays each other once as the "blue" player and once as the "red" player.
21:04:21 <fizzie> ehird: http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~svirpioj/hierarkia/
21:04:43 <ehird> fizzie: I was hoping something silly like iterated Prisoner's Dilemma
21:05:13 <fizzie> One of the tournament issues was caused by someone submitting a .jar file which had only the Java sources, no .class files at all. Even though I've told then in about thirteen different places to test the .jar file they submit with a script that runs it under the tournament mess.
21:05:31 <Robdgreat> note to self: never talk in here when malcontents are around
21:06:06 <ehird> Robdgreat: which malcontents?
21:06:25 <Robdgreat> anyone who'll give me unwarranted grief about something that didn't even concern them
21:06:38 <ehird> Robdgreat: ah, AnMaster.
21:06:46 <ehird> that's an even harsher view of him than I have
21:06:52 <ehird> I must applaud you
21:07:11 <ehird> well i'm not sure I can applaud passive-agressiveness
21:07:17 <ehird> you can have a one-handed clap
21:07:39 <AnMaster> Robdgreat, then you can never talk I guess. since I never disconnect my client except for kernel upgrades on the system running the bouncer, and then I real log
21:08:02 <ehird> AnMaster: your bouncer isn't you.
21:08:22 <ehird> and the day you are in #esoteric talking continuously is the day you die of starvation or w/e
21:08:23 <fizzie> ehird: Are you sure? Maybe AnMaster is just a very advanced piece of software.
21:08:31 <ehird> fizzie: I dispute the advanced qualifier
21:08:44 <fizzie> Certainly it makes more sense than fungot.
21:08:45 <fungot> fizzie: i'll take a look
21:09:02 <ehird> I'm pretty sure I could make a bot emulating AnMaster accurately about 60% of the time
21:09:38 <Deewiant> Anybody want to tell me what's wrong with my ELF/program/section header that's making my process get SIGKILL'd immediately?
21:09:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you told me to expand scrollback. :P
21:10:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> you should extend that buffer <-- So I did (lazy evaluation though)
21:10:59 <Ilari> Deewiant: It contains something the kernel doesn't like...
21:11:16 <Deewiant> Ilari: Yeah, any idea what it could be?
21:11:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: Your system has developed a sense of taste (probably due to exposure to Mycology) and dislikes your hacky binary.
21:11:19 <Deewiant> I'm running out of ideas myself.
21:11:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, use a kernel level debugger
21:11:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: Where's the sense of taste stored, so I can wipe it?
21:11:46 <Ilari> Deewiant: Errors after exec has passed point of no return (old mm destroyed) and control being passed to interpretter/program cause SIGKILL to be sent.
21:12:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'm sure the FHS has a well-defined place for that.
21:12:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Too bad this machine doesn't even have a serial port :-P
21:12:42 <oklopol_> Deewiant: you heartless monster
21:12:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can use firewire too
21:13:01 <Deewiant> Ilari: Well, it's happening before any code is executed
21:13:10 <oklopol_> if you knew where my port is, would you make me forget?
21:13:19 <Deewiant> I guess that the entry point might be somehow incorrect
21:13:34 <fizzie> You could take a peek at the Linux ELF-loading code. I assume it's not something ld-linux.so involves itself with?
21:13:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't have a firewire cable :-P
21:13:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, check the relevant kernel code
21:14:03 <Ilari> Deewiant: Yes. Almost entiere ELF loading occurs when kernel can't abort exec anymore but needs to kill the process if it goes wrong.
21:14:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do a bisect of revision history to find what revision introduced the issue?
21:15:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, add logging statements to the code to find what way it kills in?
21:15:28 <fizzie> Another way of running kgdb is qemu, I guess. But that really might be more trouble than what it's wrong.
21:15:34 <Deewiant> Do you honestly think I would'nt've noticed that my program doesn't even start, for many revisions? :-P
21:15:54 <ehird> 21:14 AnMaster: Deewiant, do a bisect of revision history to find what revision introduced the issue?
21:15:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, set up linux under bosch (sp?) and use it's built in debugger
21:16:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you seriously not detect sarcasm.
21:16:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If I detected sarcasm with you I'd laugh at half of what you say.
21:17:01 <Ilari> Deewiant: First thing that can go wrong is that if BRK setting goes wrong when loading section.
21:17:04 <ehird> AnMaster: the problem is that sarcasm has to convey a point
21:17:15 <ehird> if you got that, our meters would set off
21:17:19 <ehird> as is it's indistinguishable from stupidity
21:17:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: The load_elf_binary function of Linux's fs/binfmt_elf.c is a very sequential piece of code, with SIGKILLs very visible; I guess you could read about the checks it makes, see if it gives you any inspiration.
21:17:47 <AnMaster> ehird, no, this is post-nonsense sarcasmic art.
21:18:06 <ehird> AnMaster: What you're saying is, "um... err... LA LA LA"
21:18:12 <ehird> "You're wrong 'cuz I said so."
21:18:38 <fizzie> (It is, however, quite long, too.)
21:18:53 -!- neldoreth has joined.
21:19:42 <AnMaster> ehird, that was the point all along. A post-modern social experiment over irc. You seriously claim you haven't understood that after these years...
21:20:19 <ehird> AnMaster: You have been in here than less than a year. And I think you'd better know that I despise the common human excuse of papering over logical argument with bad jokes.
21:20:28 <AnMaster> no, more than a year I'm pretty sure.
21:20:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what date did I first join then?
21:20:55 <ehird> It feels like it because you slow time down by packing as much annoyance in to it as possible.
21:21:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Watch as I magic grep:
21:21:21 <Ilari> Deewiant: If you want just to test the executable code, load aout module and use that. Aout is vastly simpler than ELF.
21:21:28 <AnMaster> actually cfunge is over a year old now.
21:21:29 <fizzie> [2007-11-05 04:03:25] ... AnMaster_ [n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster] has joined #esoteric
21:21:39 <ehird> I distinctly recall 2008.
21:21:50 <ehird> 07.10.31:15:10:56 <AnMaster> <IhopE> Or Rodger Tokigun Helios EgoBot Gregor-Reddak-Ehird-Anmaster-Tritonio, which would be very weird. <-- huh?
21:21:59 <ehird> One day after joining, you establish your catchphrase.
21:22:00 <Deewiant> Ilari: Nah, the program is fine, I want proper ELF.
21:22:01 <fizzie> I seem to be missing a bit there, since I don't have a 2007-10 mention. Might've been my "forgot to rejoin" period.
21:23:23 <Ilari> Deewiant: 'objdump -x' on it says anything that could be hint?
21:23:54 <Deewiant> Ilari: It and readelf dump the values that I expect; of course, I don't know what could be incorrect :-)
21:24:13 <Ilari> Deewiant: Can you pastebin such dump?
21:24:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, /usr/src/linux/fs/binfmt_elf.c and grep for KILL ?
21:25:07 <AnMaster> it seems pretty easy to follow
21:25:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Been there 10 minutes ago; nothing obvious jumps out
21:26:50 <Deewiant> http://www.pastie.org/private/gaqgo3ngwfhpvcnattprkq
21:28:46 <fizzie> Er, are you sure Linux is happy to load stuff at 0?
21:29:05 -!- victor______ has left (?).
21:29:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm that sounds right. It shouldn't be
21:29:21 <Deewiant> My primary suspicion is that it doesn't like my virtual addresses, indeed
21:29:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try to change that then
21:30:57 <fizzie> I'm also not sure if there was some funkitude about the file offset needing to be align-aligned (while 146 % 8 != 0), but that sounds a bit too picky.
21:31:37 <Deewiant> Added 400000h (seems to be what /bin/ls uses) to the entry point + program header entry's virtual address + executable section's virtual address, still dies
21:31:45 <ehird> Bit-C dies: http://www.coyotos.org/pipermail/bitc-dev/2009-April/001784.html
21:32:02 <Deewiant> Changed alignment to 1: still dies
21:32:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you use a.out before or? When did it start dying?
21:33:00 <Deewiant> It started dying when I started writing my own ELF data instead of using the assembler's
21:33:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, compare it's and your own
21:34:01 <AnMaster> then start changing each of the assemblers ones to your until it breaks+
21:34:14 <Deewiant> They differ in many places because its headers are somewhat crap
21:34:41 <Deewiant> For certain values of 'working', yes
21:35:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, being able to run the program is a quality of "working" to me
21:37:34 <Ilari> Deewiant: ph vaddrs and paddrs seem to be the same in dumping working executable...
21:37:53 <Deewiant> Ilari: According to the spec paddrs are ignored
21:38:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: Do you know if the loader looks at the section headers at all (if they happen to be there), or just the program headers?
21:38:45 <Deewiant> Ilari: Just to humour you, doesn't make a difference
21:39:33 <Deewiant> fizzie: I don't know how important it considers them, but looking at the code it does do something with them
21:40:21 <Deewiant> Hmm, maybe my virtual address should start at 400000h + the header size
21:40:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: You could also try doing what most executables I've seen do, and just load the whole program starting from file offset 0.
21:40:51 <Ilari> fizzie: AFAIK, it only looks at program headers.
21:41:05 <fizzie> Into 400000h. And do remember to alter your entry point when you change the vaddr value. :p
21:41:31 <Ilari> From one test executable I made with NASM + LD: LOAD 0x000000 0x08048000 0x08048000 0x00064 0x00064 R E 0x1000
21:42:29 <Deewiant> Okay, now I got past SIGKILL, yay
21:42:30 <Ilari> That is, file offset 0, virtaddr and physaddr 0x08048000, file and memory size 0x64, Readable Executable, alignment 0x1000 (1 page)
21:43:06 <Deewiant> Making the virtaddr be 0x400000 + the size of the headers was what made it work
21:43:07 <fizzie> Using a page-sized alignment was another thing I was going to suggest in LOADed phdr entries, since that seems to be a habit of ld too.
21:43:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: It is really more common just to load from 0 and include the headers, but if it works...
21:44:58 <Deewiant> fizzie: Oh, you mean include the headers in the area specified by the program header?
21:45:28 <Deewiant> Seems weird to include them in the segment IMO :-P
21:46:29 <Ilari> Deewiant: Presumably yes.
21:47:50 <fizzie> That's what people do, though.
21:48:05 <Deewiant> Hmm, but now it seems that all memory accesses are offset
21:48:23 <Deewiant> By an amount of bytes equal to negative the virtual address, I suspect :-P
21:48:34 <fizzie> Are you sure your assembler knows where the code starts?
21:49:02 <Deewiant> That's kind of why I wanted to specify a virtual address of zero
21:49:23 <Ilari> Deewiant: You would need to write relocations table in that case.
21:49:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, let it generate it's own ELF header instead?
21:49:51 <Deewiant> AnMaster: And have objdump and other tools not work because they think it's borked? Nah.
21:50:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, use a different assembler?
21:50:25 <AnMaster> which one did you use you said?
21:50:41 <fizzie> Anyway, I suspect that they include the headers because it makes no difference whether you start from vaddr 0x400123 and file offset 0x123, or start from vaddr 0x400000 and file offset 0x0, it's not like it's leaving those 0x123 bytes of the start of the first page unallocated.
21:50:44 <Deewiant> And it has an 'org' directive which allows me to tell it the virtual base address
21:50:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it isn't even in my package manager
21:50:55 <AnMaster> and why are you using fasm anyway
21:51:04 <fizzie> An assembler without a org-like directive would be a rather crappy assembler.
21:51:39 <Deewiant> Currently I start from vaddr 0x146 and file offset 0x146.
21:51:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is the code position independent?
21:52:13 <Deewiant> PIC code is a bit of a pain to code by hand
21:52:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have done that though in cfunge, have a pic and a non-pic variant
21:52:42 <Ilari> Deewiant: What ORG value you use?
21:53:07 <Ilari> Deewiant: I think the correct one is loadbase + size of headers.
21:53:47 <Ilari> Deewiant: Or actually, loadbase of program text.
21:53:48 <Deewiant> I.e. printing string constants gives exactly the string.
21:54:53 <fizzie> The correct ORG value is (pretty much by definition) wherever the code ends up being.
21:55:14 <Deewiant> This is a bit annoying though: I need to assemble my program to know its binary size for the headers, and I need to assemble my headers to know the ORG value for the program.
21:55:51 <Deewiant> Is there a command-line tool I can use to write values into specified positions of a binary?
21:56:00 <fizzie> Aren't you just including the headers in the assembler file?
21:56:30 <Deewiant> No; the final tool that compiles my program is 'cat'
21:56:31 <fizzie> I mean, you could use .ORG 0, then start writing ".db" pseudo-ops or whatever fasm uses, and then assemble as a "flat binary" file.
21:57:11 <Deewiant> ehird: I'd rather not depend on non-coreutils stuff
21:57:29 <ehird> I thought you meant manually
21:57:29 <fizzie> You can abuse dd for writing too; "echo <bytes> | dd of=file bs=1 count=len skip=offset conv=notrunc".
21:57:48 <fizzie> Uh, s/skip/seek/ there of course.
21:58:18 <Sgeo> [this is for a puzzle] In trinary, if I have no access to "2", can I always express a number as a - b with a and b only containing 0s and 1s in their representation?
21:59:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Actually, trinary is a synonym of ternary.
21:59:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but I just strongly prefer ternary. And so do wikipedia.
21:59:29 * Sgeo hms at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_ternary
21:59:30 <kerlo> That's balanced ternary.
21:59:32 <Deewiant> Prefer what you will but it wasn't incorrect.
21:59:32 <fizzie> The one time I manually did an ELF file, I found it very pleasant to include the headers in the assembler file, a bit like the teensy-elf-executable-guy is doing.
22:00:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Ternary numeral system (Redirected from Trinary)
22:00:15 <Deewiant> fizzie: I just expect to have to write non-ELF headers as well, which means I need to keep the headers separate from my code.
22:00:21 <kerlo> It *is* balanced ternary.
22:00:29 <Sgeo> ..and that page basically says that it's the solution for the puzzle
22:01:19 <kerlo> After the winner wins, tell me what the puzzle is...
22:01:50 <Sgeo> kerlo, it's the Enigma puzzle
22:02:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, write a tool to generate elf headers
22:02:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's called a 'compiler' :-P
22:03:52 <kerlo> I've seen that puzzle before at least twice, I believe.
22:05:41 <Sgeo> "Your password has been emailed to your address on record."
22:05:47 <AnMaster> hm gcc has __float128 on x86_64 too..
22:05:49 <Sgeo> This, coming from a security site
22:06:32 <Sgeo> AnMaster, Enigma as in the contest in Agora
22:12:51 <Ilari> One from context of one custom level Enigma (the game): How to draw random nxn matrix over GF(2) that is invertible at uniform (assuming ideal RNG is available)?
22:18:11 -!- ais523 has quit.
22:18:39 <AnMaster> start program which will call abort(), do: display errno, do: r (answer yes to question about restarting), wait for abort() call
22:28:33 -!- atrapado has quit ("quita").
22:31:37 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
22:45:06 <fizzie> (Though not for long.)
22:46:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:50:27 <ehird> fizzie: I was wondering if you could share your supar-secret DPI calculation formula.
22:53:10 <fizzie> What is such a thing? I just did {X,Y}-resolution/{X,Y}-visible-size-in-inches. I don't think that's much of a formula.
22:54:04 <ehird> Well, yes. That could work.
22:54:07 <ehird> I was thinking more the diagonal DPI.
22:54:12 <ehird> 15:24:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, there is no strip on the page?
22:54:12 <ehird> 15:24:54 <AnMaster> ??
22:54:14 <ehird> 15:25:00 <AnMaster> or do I have to enable java script
22:54:16 <ehird> 15:25:02 <AnMaster> I hope not
22:54:18 <ehird> How little things change
22:55:38 <ehird> You're welcome, Sgeo_?
22:56:17 <Sgeo_> I thought you were pasting what I missed?
22:56:20 -!- psygnisf_ has joined.
22:56:57 <ehird> this is from 2007.
22:57:27 <Sgeo_> I might have missed stuff from 2007
22:57:53 <ehird> Sgeo_: do you want all the logs of before you came in here?
22:57:58 <ehird> 05.09.17:14:16:35 --- join: Sgep (n=sgeo@ool-182e9882.dyn.optonline.net) joined #esoteric
22:58:00 <ehird> So, just a few years.
22:58:16 <ehird> 05.09.18:15:10:28 <Sgep> n00b's (read:my) attempt to design something: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Sgeo/binbf
22:58:17 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfiv.
22:58:21 -!- psygnisfiv has changed nick to psygnisfive_.
22:58:27 <ehird> (Well okay it's not that bad)
22:58:46 <fizzie> If you want some sort of diagonal DPI, you can compute sqrt(xres^2+yres^2)/sqrt(xsize^2+ysize^2), but I assume in most cases the pixels tend to be quite square. In which case xres=k*xsize and yres=k*ysize and the diagonal-DPI sqrt(xres^2+yres^2)/sqrt(xsize^2+ysize^2) = sqrt(k^2) = k.
22:59:18 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, well, diagonal-DPI is quite the standard, since nobody buys narrowscreens any more.
23:09:59 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood).
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23:16:07 <Deewiant> printf "0: %016x" $$sz | xxd -r | od -vAn -tdL | xargs printf "0: %016x" | xxd -r | dd of=$$tmp bs=1 count=8 seek=$$(($$o)) conv=notrunc 2>/dev/null
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23:44:19 <psygnisfive_> do you know of any app that does actual analysis of musical structure beyond just, say, trying to find its "musical fingerprint"
23:45:03 <ehird> what, from pcm data?
23:45:07 <ehird> that sounds kind of difficult
23:45:13 <ehird> there is a thing which purports to separate all the notes
23:45:14 <ehird> so you can tweak them
23:45:15 <oklopol_> i recall telling somewhere it would be cool to have a thingie you could give a melody to, and it would tell you the song
23:45:18 <ehird> but apparently it doesn't work
23:45:21 <ehird> and apparently it works
23:45:29 <oklopol_> ehird sounds like someone who'd say that
23:45:47 <oklopol_> ehird: what do you mean it doesn't work?
23:46:21 <ehird> well you are meant to give it to a recording of a song
23:46:22 <psygnisfive_> lastfm unfortunately doesnt organize artists based on their musical similarities
23:46:25 <ehird> and then excels in the area of failing to recognize the song you play it
23:46:29 <oklopol_> i mean it's not like it's possible to fail at what i'm talking about, you'd just need to actually have such a system
23:46:40 <oklopol_> ehird: well that's absolutely useless, trivial and stupid
23:46:56 <ehird> psygnisfive_: actually it categorizes them based on
23:47:00 <ehird> (2) who listens to both artists
23:47:04 <ehird> so it's pretty, um, shit
23:47:39 <ehird> does it track genre
23:47:43 <ehird> I think you do that via trags
23:47:46 <ehird> also: I am king of the world.
23:48:00 <oklopol_> ehird: i mean just give it 7773....5552.... and it'd say ...well umm whatever that piece is some famous beethoven thing
23:48:07 <psygnisfive_> micky erbe and maribeth solomon, tho, show similar artists as being other soundtrack artists, especially scifi soundtracks
23:48:12 <ehird> um it must be noted that I'm doing that thing where I write in a specific style that doesn't come naturally because I can' tnot
23:48:12 <fizzie> There was a music analysis workshop at Nokia Research Centre around two years ago, but I've forgotten most of what was presented there.
23:48:21 <ehird> so if that happens welp watch out oky
23:48:44 <ehird> psygnisfive_: well you could compare musical fingerprints i mean that might work acceptably for the amount of work it'd take which is roughly none i mean if you use one of those library things to do it and do it in chunks and stuff you know?
23:49:35 <ehird> psygnisfive_: errrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm like that foosic site has an open source thing for musical fingerprinting I think? ? ?
23:50:24 <ehird> hey talking like this is fun wish it came naturally
23:50:33 <oklopol_> you can't categorize music music are an individual..........
23:50:34 <fizzie> As I recall, most papers there were about things like query-by-humming-a-melody and such.
23:50:58 <oklopol_> yeah ehird isn't that how you always talk!
23:51:04 <ehird> psygnisfive_: have you like not noticed how I am talking super weird on purpose
23:51:14 <ehird> because I can't talk if I don't don't don't talk this way?
23:51:29 <ehird> well then it is clear you have a low perception like of my talkingnessbecause if you were paying attention i think you would notice it okay
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23:57:25 <fizzie> There's at least one paper about using HMM-style statistical models on MFCC features to analyse musical similarity of (here classical) sampled music.
23:58:08 <oklopol_> has anyone read music and probability?
23:58:27 <oklopol_> i performed some glancing upon it, and looked pretty neat
23:59:02 <fizzie> Given how hip and pop recommendation systems are, I'm sure there are a lot of them, and not *all* of them can be trivial wrt. the similarity measuring side.
00:00:35 <fizzie> Based on a count of greek letters in this HMM-based paper, this one at least is very nontrivial.
00:00:58 <psygnisfive_> if if i sent you a song or two, do you think you might be able to identify its genre?
00:01:40 <ehird> erm i think anyone can do that i mean anyone who is not musically sheltered i think unless like you want me to determine precise metal subgenres
00:01:44 <ehird> what kind of noise is this noise music ehird
00:01:45 <oklopol_> well he's ehird what can't he do?
00:01:49 <ehird> that i would not be able to do probably
00:02:54 <Sgeo_> oklopol_, ehird can't make PSOX magically disappear
00:03:00 <oklopol_> err i can't actually listen to anything atm
00:03:06 <ehird> well not magically i can do it scientifically??
00:03:37 <fizzie> oklopol_: Can you distinguish all of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electronic_music_genres
00:03:53 <ehird> fizzie: Hey the finn guy wrote a thing all about that didn't he
00:03:59 <ehird> So you finns should be very good at it
00:04:10 <ehird> I could probably distinguish like 3-5 electronic musical subgenreificationerams
00:04:33 <oklopol_> fizzie: i don't know the difference between rap and hip hop
00:04:51 <fizzie> I probably wouldn't know Nitzhonot from Psybient. (According to the list, those two are both subgenres.)
00:05:17 <ehird> oklopol_: well isn't rapping part of hip hop music
00:05:32 <fizzie> Trip-hip-hop-a-pop-pop.
00:06:06 <ehird> So give song psygnisfive_ ?
00:06:14 <oklopol_> psygnisfive_: what's that i mean
00:06:17 <psygnisfive_> i generally go by ishkur's guide as _the_ taxonomy:
00:06:24 <ehird> that's the finn guy
00:06:36 <ehird> err the thing in that page is tiny
00:06:46 <ehird> http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/music.swf
00:06:50 <psygnisfive_> http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/music.swf
00:06:53 <ehird> that's the finn guy!
00:07:13 <fizzie> I remember seeing a link. I have no clue about nationality.
00:08:29 <oklopol_> genres are a stupid idea anyway
00:08:52 <ehird> http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/OldFlame.mp3 β ambient.
00:09:07 <ehird> http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Dimensions.mp3 β more ambient.
00:09:15 <ehird> that isn't ambient later on
00:09:20 <ehird> i can't classify shit
00:09:34 <ehird> what animal made this
00:09:37 <ehird> then pointing to a huge pile of shi
00:09:40 <ehird> i don't fucking know man
00:10:25 <oklopol_> i know elephant, dog, cat, rabbit, certain birds, list goes on and on
00:12:34 <oklopol_> ehird: how many dimensions were there?
00:12:35 <fizzie> Llllizards. Weren't you one?
00:13:08 <oklopol_> why don't you take like a dictionary and learn some biology
00:13:34 <ehird> oklopol_: est 19:37
00:13:35 <oklopol_> fizzie: lizards do reverse osmosis
00:14:06 <ehird> oklopol_: no more questions??
00:17:35 <ehird> does that stand for
00:17:37 <ehird> effing fucking crap
00:18:06 <ehird> oklopol_: i'll answer: the run was long
00:19:21 <ehird> psygnisfive_: it's not music, it's soundtrack
00:19:27 <ehird> i mean it doesn't fit into any genre
00:19:32 <ehird> because it isn't really music as such
00:19:46 <psygnisfive_> well, often in other soundtracks or similar things
00:19:53 <ehird> it sounds like mark oldfield, to be frank.
00:19:57 <ehird> er is that his name
00:19:59 <ehird> I don't know his nam
00:20:12 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Oldfield
00:20:17 <ehird> it sounds like his crap
00:20:40 <oklopol_> hmm 20 seconds lag. so i guess no.
00:20:44 <fungot> oklopol_: i think i'll still make that " without a good name
00:21:01 <psygnisfive_> it could easily be some sort of newage/neofolk/etc kind of stuff
00:21:02 <ehird> psygnisfive_: what is the genre, anyway?
00:21:08 <ehird> that's what i meant
00:21:39 <psygnisfive_> i cant find any newage that sounds liek that tho
00:21:55 <ehird> mike oldfield is very like that
00:22:08 <ehird> tacky shit like you'd find in the background of a shitty documentary, like about the planets or something
00:22:12 <ehird> on discovery channel
00:22:34 <psygnisfive_> the artists for this did the music for the Earth IMAX movie
00:23:00 <psygnisfive_> i love this kind of music. precisely BECAUSE its all planet documentary like
00:23:13 <psygnisfive_> i miss them, actually. noone does them anymore. they were like
00:23:22 <ehird> that's kind of elevating them
00:24:11 <psygnisfive_> ehird, if oldfield is the kind of stuff im looking for
00:24:44 <ehird> ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
00:24:45 <lament> science is no longer cool :(
00:24:54 <ehird> is this like with 3 wish genies wwhere I can ask for infinite wishes psygnisfive_?
00:24:54 <lament> these days, only gay sex is cool
00:25:49 <oklopol_> hmph, i located my music gear, but i can't load old flame :<
00:26:06 <ehird> you're not missing anything
00:26:11 <ehird> in fact you're anti-missing things
00:26:42 <ehird> you just realiesd?
00:26:59 <ehird> really don't think so
00:27:06 <ehird> also it's leekspin
00:27:15 <ehird> it is not a leakage spinning around
00:27:17 <ehird> that would be ridiculous
00:27:21 <ehird> leakage is an abstract concept
00:27:43 <oklopol_> he's just used to typing meat spin cuz he's kinda gay.
00:27:58 <ehird> i don't get how meatspin lemonparty etc are shocksites
00:28:08 <ehird> okay lemonparty is old people, gross factor, i get it
00:28:22 <ehird> but meatspin is just a tranny. that's like, mainstream
00:28:25 <ehird> how is that a shock site
00:29:29 <lament> it's just a twirly dick
00:29:44 <psygnisfive_> and a guy who wears skimpy undies when tanning
00:30:22 <oklopol_> i can't take this obscene scene
00:30:40 <ehird> you have an ikea like
00:30:51 <ehird> i would go eery da
00:31:00 <ehird> you destroyed my life
00:31:10 <ehird> i am in a phone now?
00:31:13 <lament> ehird: so go to sweden
00:32:13 <ehird> psygnisfive_: can't you use irc on your phone
00:32:22 <ehird> is it an iphone, colloquy is on the app store, it's free you know.
00:32:26 <ehird> i'm guessing it's an iphone because you're a mac fag.
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00:33:31 <Sgeo_> If WINE was perfect, I'd be a Linux person
00:33:48 <ehird> lern2googletogetwineworkingwhenitdoesn't
00:33:56 <Sgeo_> vm is useless in this case >.>
00:33:57 <ehird> lern2usenativelinuxreplacement
00:34:09 <ehird> there's no justification for using windows as your default day to day OS
00:34:29 <Sgeo_> ehird, what if I want to play various MMORPGs day to day?
00:34:39 <ehird> Sgeo_: use a vm, or wine
00:34:45 <ehird> [[and stop being an mmorpg addict]]
00:34:47 <Sgeo_> MMORPGs that might be difficult or impossible to get running in WINE, and which are 3d
00:34:50 <ehird> yes, there are vms with 3d accelleration
00:35:02 <ehird> Sgeo_: virtualbox, I believe
00:35:06 <ehird> vmware probably have something for that now too
00:35:10 <ehird> It's becoming commonplace
00:36:21 <Sgeo_> Would there be a way to take the OS currently running, and put it in a VM? So that I don't need another copy or a cracked copy of XP?
00:36:34 <ehird> erm do you have the CD?
00:37:13 <ehird> also if you don't have the cd put the partition on a flash drive or sth then import that into the vm?
00:37:17 <ehird> taht may be illegal anyway
00:37:24 <ehird> gettign a pirated copy would be a lot easier
00:38:03 <Sgeo_> I don't feel comfortable ever putting a password in a pirated anything
00:38:14 <Sgeo_> This includes MMORPG passwords
00:38:41 <Sgeo_> Incidentally, why would I want to go through this effort, just to not use Windows?
00:38:41 <ehird> Sgeo_: There's a problem here, and it exists somewhere, and one endpoint of it is the chair.
00:38:51 <ehird> I'll let you figure out the other endpoint.
00:41:07 <ehird> Sgeo_: and because keeping things that absolutely need windows in their cage of dung lets you not use windows elsewhere
00:41:15 <ehird> and if you need telling why windows is bad, uh, hopeless case.
00:41:53 <Sgeo_> ehird, my understanding is: Crashy and malwarey and not easy to use
00:42:22 <Sgeo_> Is there anything else wrong with Windows?
00:42:56 <ehird> The business behind it is quite frankly immoral and doesn't care about customers. The OS is full of legacy cruft and was badly designed from the start. It is unstable, and instead of fixing security problems, they make you run a program that *detects things trying to exploit them and deletes them* -- what a stupid "fix". And the UI is awful.
00:43:03 <ehird> I can't really think of a way in which Windows is _not_ bad.
00:45:57 <Sgeo_> Is Freespire considered evil?
00:46:00 <FireFly> Well, I can't think of any way that Qwerty is not bad. The only reason people use it is because of the great share of the market
00:46:20 <ehird> Sgeo_: Freespire is, uh, just not good. It doesn't have advantages and it tries too hard to be Windows.
00:46:28 <ehird> If you want something that Just Works, ubuntu does an excellent job.
00:46:29 <FireFly> I guess it's the same as with Windows, only that the margins are closer
00:46:41 <Sgeo_> What about Linux Mint?
00:46:47 <ehird> Sgeo_: what's wrong with ubuntu
00:46:49 <ehird> linux mint is ubuntu-based
00:46:53 <ehird> and doesn't really add anything
00:46:56 <ehird> and has a small community = worse support
00:47:13 <Sgeo_> ehird, I get bored easily. I spent 3 years (iirc) on Ubuntu
00:47:36 <ehird> I only recommend based on goodness, not boredom-whims, so I'm not sure I can help.
00:48:40 <ehird> Sgeo_: ubuntu has changed a lot recently
00:50:05 <Sgeo_> Hm, I should try KDE4 at some point
00:50:21 <ehird> KDE4 is nice. I prefer GNOME these days tho.
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01:00:45 <Sgeo_> I think someone on deviantart thinks someone tried to gain unauthorized access
01:00:55 <ehird> ... who gives a shit? What?
01:00:59 <Sgeo_> I did the Lost Password thing on DA, for username Sgeo
01:01:07 <ehird> (2) who gives a shit about deviantart
01:01:08 <Sgeo_> There really is a Sgeo on DA that isn't me
01:01:18 <ehird> (5) why is it "OH CRAP"
01:01:30 <Sgeo_> DA might investigate?
01:01:45 <ehird> and put you in jail for clicking remember password for an account that wasn't yours by mistake?
01:01:49 <ehird> OH THE HUGE MANATEE!!!
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02:20:04 <Sgeo_> THEREFORE YOU EAT BABIES
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14:01:51 * AnMaster wonders if it is insane to change the feature test macros between including system headers
14:02:35 <AnMaster> example #define _GNU_SOURCE\n#include <sys/mman.h>#undef _GNU_SOURCE\n#include <sys/time.h>
14:02:49 <ehird> AnMaster: that will break things in undefined ways.
14:03:08 <ehird> well I don't know for a fact
14:03:12 <ehird> I'd just be incredibly surprised if it didn't
14:03:35 <AnMaster> also I can't see any reason to do that thing
14:03:36 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=floppy_drive.html β but is the floppy drive silent?!?!?!
14:03:50 <ehird> lol do people buy floppy drives?
14:04:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't see the CD being silent either
14:04:28 <ehird> cd drives generally are quiet once they get going
14:04:34 <ehird> floppy drives are a KRRRRRRRRRNK KNK KNK KNK KRRRRRRRNK
14:04:48 <ehird> why have you got a CD in anyway, apart from to rip it :-)
14:05:04 <AnMaster> ehird, on non-macs you sometimes use floppies to update bios, or if using windows xp, to provide SATA drivers during install
14:05:10 <AnMaster> but that would be about all I think
14:05:21 <ehird> These come without a floppy drive configured
14:05:29 <ehird> Can't you update the BIOS from a CD?
14:05:31 <ehird> I don't see why not
14:05:38 <AnMaster> ehird, probably you can with newer ones
14:06:05 <ehird> I still need to figure out how to tell the BIOS "shut up and boot the OS" :-)
14:06:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well there is usually some "fast boot" option on by default
14:06:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I mean more the page of output they all give
14:07:02 <ehird> That is relevant to absolutely no-one who isn't trying to fix a BIOS problem
14:07:30 <AnMaster> or "non-verbose, but fill screen with BIOS manufacture's logo in low resolution instead"
14:07:42 <ehird> ooh my shit WinFast board did that!
14:07:56 <ehird> old motherboard I had
14:08:30 <AnMaster> well, usually it is the default even, and you have to manually turn on verbose output to get rid of that logo
14:08:40 * AnMaster prevers verbose output over messy logo
14:08:43 <ehird> It's not the default on older mobos
14:09:39 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I saw a server bios (using a kvm) that waited with a prompt like "press 1 to enter options, 2 to continue to boot", luckily with a 10 second timeout
14:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: reminds me of GRUB's default settings
14:10:14 <ehird> "SINCE YOU HAVE FAILSAFE AND MEMTEST VARIANTS I WILL SIT HERE FOR 15 SECONDS WAITING FOR YOU TO NOT CHOOSE THEM"
14:10:16 <AnMaster> well yes, many bootloaders do something like that, but for a bios it is rather unusual
14:10:27 <ehird> for grub silent and 0sec timeout ftw
14:10:34 <ehird> (just hammer ESC :-))
14:11:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I would suggest a 3 second timeout or so, in case you do need to select other options, and also the grub menu allows you to edit existing options (hit e iirc)
14:11:21 <ehird> Like I said, hammer ESC
14:11:28 <ehird> The situation's rare enough that I'd prefer a fast boot
14:11:32 <ehird> Although rebooting is rare too
14:11:48 <AnMaster> hammering esc works with a 0 timeout?
14:12:22 <ehird> sure, you just grab it while it's working out what to do
14:12:23 <AnMaster> also I like fast boot, but an extra 3 seconds doesn't bother me, since it makes it easier in case of issues.
14:12:39 <ehird> a 1s timeout may be better
14:12:44 <ehird> since you don't have to hammer it and get lucky
14:13:04 <ehird> Coreboot is quite appealing to me.
14:13:14 <ehird> For the fast linux bootup
14:13:18 <ehird> But really, I never reboot
14:13:26 <ehird> Apart from upgrades
14:13:36 <AnMaster> indeed 1 sec could work, if my screen didn't do so slow mode switching (yet people complain about slow mode switching under linux, but it is no faster under windows or during boot anyway)
14:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird, then you would like kexec
14:14:14 <AnMaster> upgrade kernel without reboot, old kernel starts new one
14:14:40 <ehird> Kernel upgrades aren't too frequent enough for me to mess with that...
14:14:40 <AnMaster> on the other hand, running the self test bit in BIOS sometimes may be a good idea, hardware does fail sometimes.
14:15:05 <ehird> 'sides, rebooting is an excuse to trash the dormant windows lying around :-)
14:15:33 <AnMaster> you only skip bios and bootloader
14:15:53 <ehird> That'd only save a second or two. :P
14:16:25 <AnMaster> there is some hardware that doesn't like being reinitialised without a reboot or such
14:17:19 * ehird 's happy that Google App Engine does java now
14:17:21 <AnMaster> ehird, for example, kexec worked on my old computer, but not on this, but I haven't tried it again since 2.6.20 or so
14:17:25 <ehird> (since you can presumably use any jvm language)
14:17:32 <AnMaster> and some hardware have changed since then
14:18:12 <ehird> I could wait 5 minutes to boot, really, as long as I had hibernate
14:18:39 <AnMaster> ehird, kexec is also used nowdays to start a rescue kernel in the case of an oops, a special kernel compiled to just dump the core and shut down.
14:18:52 <AnMaster> in case the file system stuff is corrupted in the oopsing kernel
14:19:02 <ehird> er journaling fses prevent that don't they
14:19:22 <AnMaster> ehird, what if journaling code got corrupted in whatever caused the oops
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14:20:09 <AnMaster> so you use an older, stable kernel as dumping one, while testing last rc
14:20:26 <AnMaster> (but if you test last rc you probably got a debugger over serial set up anyway meh)
14:22:15 * ehird checks computer shopping list stack-stack. Top item: {router,kb,mouse}
14:22:26 <ehird> ((My in-brain organization system is weird.))
14:23:29 <ehird> Well, router's easy.
14:24:42 <ehird> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Linksys-WRT54GL-Wireless-G-Broadband-Router/dp/B000ETX928/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1239197068&sr=8-1
14:24:47 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you say you liked your flat apple keyboard?
14:25:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not so sure it would work with the new system; bluetooth and all that.
14:25:24 <ehird> Also, recently it seems to be requiring more pressure to hit the keys, which is a bit awkward on my hands.
14:26:32 <ehird> all keys do it though
14:27:07 <AnMaster> or maybe that greasy thing often found in the plastic shafts for the keys in keyboards have dried up?
14:27:22 <ehird> I've taken keycaps off before; no grease here.
14:27:40 <AnMaster> or maybe you just typed too much and is tired in your hands?~
14:38:49 <ehird> "The ViewSonic VX2835wm 28β multimedia LCD display comes with [...] a proprietary display technology"
14:38:56 <ehird> Oh, marketing department.
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14:49:01 <fizzie> Sony's (very-full-of-proprietary-technology) Vaio P has a 8" (diagonal) screen, with a 1600x768-pixel resolution; that's sqrt(1600^2+768^2)/8 β 222 dots per inch.
14:49:07 <fizzie> That should be more to your tastes.
14:49:43 <AnMaster> I have heard of 300 dpi screens
14:49:55 <ehird> I just want a ~30" screen with >1920x1200 res
14:50:29 <fizzie> The printer I have in my basement does 72 LPI, I think.
14:50:58 <AnMaster> iirc some greyscale only TFT at an insane price, "no dead pixels" warranty, 100% sealed, meant for use at hospitals iirc
14:51:19 <ehird> my dad has an old black and white slow as fuck huge whirring printer that prints to bad quality paper with punched holes on the side
14:51:37 <fizzie> It's a 9-pin dot matrix thing, and I think it supported the 8-lines-per-inch line spacing mode. I used to have dot matrix art on the walls back when I lived alone in Vantaa.
14:52:02 <fizzie> Had to write the conversion-to-printer-data-routine myself, since the lines were a bit overlapping. :p
14:52:25 <ehird> fizzie: you're making me feel like i wasted my life again
14:52:33 <fizzie> I had http://isometric.sixsided.org/data/strips/only_when_youre_ready/21.gif printed. :p
14:52:43 <ehird> why couldn't i have been born 10 years earlier
14:53:10 <fizzie> Funny, I have the exact same feelings. Besides, living in a PC household, I almost completely missed the Commodore age.
14:56:44 <fizzie> At least you mac people had that paper airplane game. :p
14:56:47 <ehird> I, uh, grew up in a PC household, but it's not as if anyone else used the computer.
14:56:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't remember that...
14:56:56 <ehird> because it was mine :-P
14:57:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, it's probably not very famous; I just remember seeing it at the place of a a mac-household friend.
14:57:22 <AnMaster> ehird, hey, a Apple Classic cost a lot back then
14:57:40 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, and?
14:58:09 <AnMaster> ehird, that was way before we had internet, when the mac had a floppy drive. AND NO CD DRIVE!
14:58:16 <ehird> "The consensus was that the Classic was only useful for word processing, spreadsheets and databases."
14:58:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I didn't have the internet until 1998 :-P
14:58:28 <AnMaster> ehird, that is what my dad did with it basically
14:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, hm 1996 or 1997 or so here I think
14:59:09 <ehird> Maybe closer to 2000; the ISP (freeserve) was founded in 1998.
14:59:17 <AnMaster> I think the old 28.8k modem is still around somewhere.
14:59:30 <ehird> "but merged into the Wanadoo group in 2000"
14:59:36 <fizzie> I don't remember what the early PCs we had cost; I'm not sure I ever asked, either. I do remember that the 486sx/33 was around 13000 FIM, which would mean about 2190 eur, discounting inflation completely.
14:59:38 <ehird> Did it change name to wanadoo then?
15:00:33 <ehird> I got my pc when I was 3
15:00:37 <ehird> Then internet 2 years after
15:00:42 <ehird> So PC 1998, interweb 2000
15:00:52 <ehird> The PC ran windows 3.11 :-P
15:01:29 <ehird> I tell you, Windows 3.1 was *awful*
15:01:42 <fizzie> You don't have to tell me, I've been there.
15:01:50 <fizzie> Windows 1 wasn't that great either.
15:01:58 <fizzie> Only split-screen windowing, for one thing.
15:02:09 <fizzie> But it did have that Reversi game.
15:02:32 <ehird> I'm using Windows, w-w-w-windows 386
15:02:36 <ehird> So all my applications are running at once
15:02:41 <ehird> ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4915875929930836239 )
15:03:10 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Winchicagodesktop.png Early windows 95
15:03:21 <fizzie> I wonder if I could deduce our Internet days from the operator things. We had EUnet's strange connection (SLIP with static IP, they gave the public "username.pp.fi" DNS+ip for all customers; oh, and there was a cheaper "only Finnish traffic allowed" option, you had to pay extra for international internet) for a while, maybe not more than a year or so... then we migrated to Dystopia, and that lasted also a year or so before sci.fi ate it; then again a bit late
15:03:21 <fizzie> r sci.fi, DLC and some other Finnish ISP formed Saunalahti, which still exists.
15:03:28 <fizzie> Maybe google knows when all this happened.
15:03:29 <AnMaster> got my own computer when I was 9 or so, and internet only a few years later
15:03:42 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
15:03:47 <ehird> This explains much about MSFT.
15:04:02 <AnMaster> we had dial-up until 2004 or so iirc
15:04:18 <ehird> I got broadband after 2004.
15:04:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, long distance internet?...
15:04:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes. Great, eh?
15:05:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, did they somehow ensure in-country packages didn't get routed outside
15:05:46 <ehird> fizzie: Long distance internet? Reminds me of that age-old bash quote.
15:05:52 <ehird> Fuckin' Europe's so expensive.
15:06:10 <AnMaster> it was what I was referring to even
15:06:31 <ehird> It's not very catchy.
15:06:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't know, must've been some sort of routing trick. Maybe they only allowed traffic over the Finnish Internet exchange (ficix) and relied that their ficix-peers wouldn't carry their non-local traffic anywhere.
15:07:39 <fizzie> Hmm, there's a magazine article from 1998 which says that "Dystopia was sold to Clarinet a year ago", so that was 1997. Too bad I can't really estimate how long the Dystopia- and EUnet times were.
15:07:40 <ehird> only .fi wouldn't be too restrictive
15:07:46 <ehird> Since .fi were interwebs early adopters.
15:08:08 <fizzie> EUnet's network connection came with some version of Mosaic on a floppy, but I've forgotten which it was.
15:08:23 <AnMaster> still could easily be routed outside, lists and such
15:08:29 <ehird> I started with MSIE5. I think
15:08:53 <fizzie> Maybe they allowed global email, can't remember.
15:09:03 <ehird> TALK TO YOUR PEERS
15:09:04 <AnMaster> oooh yes I still have the floppies with Netscape 2 for Mac around iirc, from 1996 or so
15:09:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I remember having a fucked up view of the windows/mac world
15:09:39 <ehird> The big box saying PowerPC was a PC emulator that macs come with.
15:09:44 <ehird> Windows uses IE, macs use Netscape.
15:10:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well this was way before first IE for mac anyway
15:10:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> The big box saying PowerPC was a PC emulator that macs come with. <-- how did you come up with that conclusion
15:11:13 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not the same shape/size as a PC tower, and it has "PC" on. The "Power" bit is like, giving PC power to macs.
15:11:19 <ehird> I thought the actual mac tower was on the floor or sth, I didn't look
15:11:24 <fizzie> I don't think there was a Netscape back then, so the internetization must've been around '94 or so.
15:11:34 <fizzie> Because it appeared pretty soon.
15:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you weren't the type who asked then I guess
15:11:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, I was, but this was at my cousins or sth
15:12:00 <ehird> And also, I was always right on the matters of computers
15:12:12 <ehird> (because everyone else around me had even less of a clue)
15:13:11 <fizzie> Spam subject-line: "Need real anti-fungal?" First association was some sort of opposite-of-Befunge thing.
15:18:48 <ehird> wow, Vista was only released in 2007?
15:18:56 <ehird> I was sure the horror had gone on for longer than that
15:23:04 <ehird> AnMaster: isn't ksplice more popular than kexec?
15:32:38 <AnMaster> ehird, they do different things though
15:32:55 <ehird> It seems like ksplice forces you to rely on them more, to make their updates compatible.
15:33:02 <ehird> OTOH, kexec basically has no advantages over rebooting.
15:33:36 <AnMaster> I want a fully replaceable microkernel
15:33:59 <AnMaster> so you can upgrade between major versions without restarting programs or disconnecting from irc and so on
15:34:12 <ehird> AnMaster: http://tunes.org/wiki/microkernel.html
15:34:26 <ehird> Not the right solution for hotswapping.
15:35:27 <ehird> The correct solution -- or, at least, as correct as I can think of --
15:35:29 <AnMaster> ehird, Synthesis+Genera+QNX+Plan9, yeah I know they are too different for it to make sense to try to combine them, but still...
15:35:35 <ehird> is to have the kernel be "Just Another Library"
15:35:39 <ehird> And have hotswappable libraries
15:35:56 <ehird> Replace the kernel, everything else suddenly calls the new version. Got an app that needs an old version of a kernel? Sorry, you can't upgrade without closing it (obviously)
15:36:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you need something in ring 0 to handle process scheduling at least
15:36:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Sure, if that happens, you have to reboot.
15:36:31 <ehird> You'd have to kill all processes no matter what
15:37:30 <ehird> AnMaster: unless it just tweaked scheduling, and nothing else
15:37:33 <ehird> then you could hotpatch i
15:37:59 <ehird> anyway, with a good language with a sophisticated dependency and library system, you could swap the kernel and core libraries without even restarting applications and they'd use them
15:38:04 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) suspend all processes, possibly seralise to a single cpu 2) load new process scheduler code 3) transfer control to data-translator function which converts data structures to a new format if needed 4) jump into new scheduler, resume processes and so on
15:38:17 <AnMaster> you could do same for every component
15:38:22 <AnMaster> say, memory manager or whatever
15:38:29 <ehird> AnMaster: by the time you do that I've rebooted, and all my processes are back because my system has orthogonal persistence
15:38:42 <AnMaster> ehird, that could mitigate the issue indeed
15:38:53 <ehird> yours is 10x more complex for not having to lose IRC connection for ~10sec :-)
15:39:01 <AnMaster> but what about critical systems, that you can't reboot, say a nuclear powerplant control system or whatever
15:39:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Why are you upgrading their kernel
15:39:27 <ehird> Upgrading them in general is asking for disaster unless you do it in a very careful, custom way
15:39:40 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe they need a bug fix or something
15:39:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Work around it
15:40:00 <ehird> Also, why are you using a kernel
15:40:10 <ehird> Surely nuclear powerplant controlsystems are 100% handcoded
15:40:22 <ehird> You can't really rely on anything except 100% understanding of the code
15:41:12 <ehird> btw, in support of my point: "Microkernels start from the (Right) idea of having modular high-level system design, and confuse the issue so as to end with the (Wrong) idea of its naive implementation as a low-level centralized run-time module manager, which constitutes a horrible abstraction inversion." β Tunes Wiki
15:41:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well, using a real time OS might be a good idea for stability, a monolithic system would risk crashing all if one part crashed
15:42:01 <ehird> I recall a quote... paraphrasing from memory, "'Operating system' is a term for everything that didn't fit into the language."
15:42:13 <AnMaster> so using multiple processes would be a good idea, still bad if something crashing, but better than monolithic crash
15:42:24 <AnMaster> and redundant systems of course and so on
15:42:43 <ehird> I will never work on a nuclear powerplant/hospital computers, etc.
15:42:48 <ehird> I have too much of a conscience
15:43:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what about braking handling computers in cars, those "electronic stability" thingies, iirc QNX is quite common there
15:43:54 <ehird> QNX kind of seems overboard for that, but that could work.
15:44:09 <ehird> That's less of a conscience-issue, since, you know, we drove perfectly fine before newfangled cars.
15:44:33 <AnMaster> ehird, the original nuclear reactors didn't use computers either
15:44:43 <AnMaster> (though there is a difference yes)
15:44:51 <ehird> But if the nuclear reactor computer dies, boom.
15:45:03 <ehird> If your fancy car stabalizer thingymajig stops, I assume you can still drive in the Good Ol' Way.
15:46:22 <AnMaster> ehird, you would have multiple fail safe backup computer systems, and if they didn't all come up with the same result you would 1) report error so technicians could fix it 2) for now, follow the result the majority if the fail safe systems ended up with
15:46:35 <ehird> I was just explaining the difference
15:46:36 <AnMaster> iirc that is how it is done for fly-by-wire in some modern aircrafts
15:47:28 <AnMaster> ehird, the fancy car stabalizer thingymajig could fail in a way that made your brakes useless though, potentially.
15:49:35 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, surely you agree it would be cool to perform upgrades without reboot
15:49:40 <AnMaster> sure it would be a lot of work
15:49:41 <ehird> Yes, and I said how :-P
15:50:06 <ehird> The only thing you can't do is stuff that would change fundamentally how the current programs's operation would start
15:50:51 <ehird> Yes, but it comes down to a reboot
15:51:02 <AnMaster> run everything in a managed environment
15:51:27 <ehird> I don't think that would work too well
15:51:35 <AnMaster> but you could change data structures and so on, even those visible to user space
15:51:52 <AnMaster> and then I mean, as in grow the size or whatever
15:52:01 <ehird> That's not really what I ment
15:52:22 <ehird> I mean if you fundamentally change the process model
15:52:28 <ehird> You can't hotswap that buy definitoin
15:52:51 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't that come down to recompiling against new ABI even
15:53:02 <AnMaster> I may have misunderstood exactly what you meant though
15:53:04 <ehird> Compiling? ABI? Excuse me? βΊ
15:53:20 <ehird> (Sorry, can't resist contravarsy.)
15:53:35 <AnMaster> well of course the managed solution would fix that
15:53:50 <ehird> I'm talking of an environment already like that
15:54:05 <AnMaster> so, in practise what does "fundamentally change the process model" boil down to.
15:54:05 <ehird> One environment with a sophisticated library dependency system
15:54:17 <fizzie> Regarding hospital software and "100% handcoded": http://sunnyday.mit.edu/papers/therac.pdf
15:54:18 <ehird> It boils down to restructuring the entire kernel :P
15:54:28 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, that ol' thing.
15:55:03 <fizzie> It was a depressing read.
15:55:06 <AnMaster> hm Computer Modern with an uneven base I think...
15:55:24 <AnMaster> it's like the text was on a wave
15:55:33 <ehird> no, that base is even
15:55:52 <AnMaster> well maybe, but then the font is somehow more messed up than CM usually is
15:56:24 <ehird> maybe it's pre-rendered
15:56:35 <AnMaster> hm goes away if I zoom to 250%... was at 200% before
15:56:47 <fizzie> It's the typical messup; in xpdf it is horrible, in Acroread it's rather readable at all zoom levels.
15:57:02 <fizzie> Fuzzy but at least not wavy.
15:57:05 <AnMaster> kpdf's info box says Times-Roman, type 1, not embedded
15:57:23 <fizzie> Yes, it's very bitmappy, I think.
15:57:31 <AnMaster> as well as three unnamed type 3 that are embedded
15:57:37 <fizzie> (Based on a 800 % zoom in acroread.)
15:58:18 <fizzie> Anyway, the point of the text wasn't really the typography. :p
15:58:59 <ehird> Copy-pasting gives junk output.
16:00:50 <ehird> "The system noticed that something was wrong and halted the X-ray beam, but merely displayed the word "MALFUNCTION" followed by a number from 1 to 64. The user manual did not explain or even address the error codes, so the operator pressed the P key to override the warning and proceed anyway."
16:00:59 <ehird> There's quite a large PEBKAC value to this.
16:04:58 <AnMaster> don't have time to read it all, but I read introduction and parts of background. There should be an "abstract", meh
16:05:10 <ehird> It's a report on a computer killing people.
16:05:18 <ehird> I think they don't give a shit how quickly you can read it.
16:18:23 <ehird> I am becoming increasingly irritated that I'm using a machine that doesn't even have a supported way to open it up and look at the hw.
16:23:42 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like all macs except mac pro?
16:24:20 <AnMaster> ehird, and those new whole body laptops are even worse when it comes to that
16:24:27 <AnMaster> before you could at least reach the battery
16:25:00 <ehird> Someone tell them that you can make aesthetically pleasing computers without sealing them up.
16:25:37 <AnMaster> I have yet to see a product with a label like: "Only user serviceable parts inside. Must not be serviced by authorized personal."
16:26:21 <ehird> That would fit on one of them low-spec-hacky-happy-fun-computery thingies that seem to be starting to exist.
16:26:38 <AnMaster> you mean like open hardware thingies?
16:26:44 * AnMaster forgot the name of the project
16:26:59 <ehird> openmoko is a phone
16:27:01 <ehird> Pandora is the handset, I think?
16:27:20 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_(console)
16:27:40 <ehird> The Pandora system by default come with an open source, Linux OS based on Γ
ngstrΓΆm[8], running the minimal Matchbox window manager[9], both originally designed for mobile devices
16:27:40 <AnMaster> is that one of the open hardware ones
16:31:32 <AnMaster> ehird, about upgrade without downtime... telinit u
16:31:38 <AnMaster> U or u tell init to re-execute itself (preserving the state). No re-examining of /etc/inittab file happens. Run level should be one of Ss12345, otherwise request would
16:32:01 <ehird> That sounds quite hard to get right.
16:32:31 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly, but it works well in my experience.
16:43:46 <ehird> http://sha1.us/ β More liek url longthenization service
16:50:08 <fizzie> irssi has that funky /upgrade command, which exec()s a (potentially upgraded) irssi binary while keeping the existing connections open, so you don't have to /quit. Not a very generic solution.
16:50:37 <ehird> fizzie: I think if you have a need for that you have an IRC problem
16:50:53 <fizzie> There's a Perl irssi-script to make /upgrade not a lose the window scrollbacks, too, I think.
17:03:41 <ehird> How queer. The "QuietElite tm-symbol Intel i7 Extreme" = the "QuietElite tm-symbol Intel i7", except it costs several hundred dollars more.
17:03:51 <ehird> Go do the figuration.
17:15:13 <AnMaster> ehird, no difference in specs?
17:15:25 <ehird> AnMaster: the cpu model and whatnot are identical
17:15:28 <ehird> I guess one could be different
17:16:28 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_i7#Processor_cores
17:16:45 <ehird> that's what i thought
17:16:53 <ehird> but the numbers are different
17:17:05 <ehird> both of these are 965
17:17:08 <ehird> so they're both ULTRA XTREME
17:18:11 <AnMaster> still rather small L3... Isn't there some IBM Power CPU/system with a 256 MB L3 or so?
17:19:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Possibly
17:19:56 <ehird> I think they have some sort of hybrid technology
17:20:00 <ehird> Which is why the L2 is so small i guess
17:20:08 <AnMaster> "The POWER4 also came in a configuration using a Multi-Chip Module (MCM) containing four POWER4 dies in a single package, with up to 128 MB of shared L3 ECC cache per MCM", and last one is POWER6
17:21:32 * ehird wonders why the Zalman ZM850-HP is more expensive than the one above it, when it's louder and the same wattage: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20639.html
17:22:36 <AnMaster> ehird, click the link for details and compare maybe
17:23:12 <ehird> 1 rear 120mm TriCoolβ’ Fan (standard)
17:23:13 <ehird> 1 top 120mm TriCoolβ’ fan (standard)
17:23:15 <ehird> 1 lower chamber 120mm TriCoolβ’ Fan (standard)]]
17:23:17 <ehird> that's some extensive cooling
17:23:39 <AnMaster> wait the max combined power doesn't add up to total power...
17:24:22 <AnMaster> oh I guess it means you can't use max in all groups at once
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17:25:43 <gavv> hi, i was victor________ yesterday
17:26:04 <ehird> I guessed, somehow
17:28:49 <gavv> not sure anybody need, anyway link: sourceforge.net/projects/bfu
17:47:49 -!- gavv has quit ("EKG2 - It's better than sex!").
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17:55:35 <AnMaster> file 6519/exe says: broken symbolic link to `/bin/bash (deleted)', but file -L on it says "6519/exe: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped"
17:55:49 <AnMaster> something very strange is going on there
17:56:16 <Ilari> AnMaster: That symbolic link is magic. You can't follow it to deleted file but you can open it.
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17:56:23 <ais523> what happened is, you ran bash
17:56:26 <ais523> then deleted the executable
17:56:32 <ais523> 6159/exe is a symlink to the old executable
17:56:50 <AnMaster> but the odd thing IMO is that you can open it, even when it is marked as broken symlink
17:56:55 <ais523> which is really rather magic, you're linking to a file that exists (it has an inode), but has no name
17:56:56 <AnMaster> that doesn't work on normal file systems
17:57:11 <AnMaster> ais523, exactly symlinks don't usually work like that
17:57:19 <Ilari> Same thing happens with fd symlinks.
17:57:23 <ais523> well, symlink-to-inode is rather magic
17:58:23 <AnMaster> ehird, usually symlinks point to filename, if you delete the file it points to you can't either follow it nor open it.
17:58:34 <ehird> This way is more logical. :P
17:58:57 <AnMaster> no it acts more like a "kind of hardlink, but not really"
17:59:49 <AnMaster> ls: cannot read symbolic link 2/exe: No such file or directory
17:59:49 <AnMaster> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 0 Apr 8 17:30 2/exe
17:59:58 <AnMaster> it is one of them kernel pseudo processes
18:00:14 <AnMaster> it is a broken symlink, pointing nowhere
18:01:47 <AnMaster> ehird, even you have to agree this is crazy
18:02:20 <ehird> 2/exe -> Segmentation fault$ <cursor>
18:02:30 <AnMaster> 2/exe: unreadable symlink `2/exe' (No such file or directory)
18:03:25 * AnMaster waits for a Penguin In Black saying "There is no such file. Nothing to see here. Move along."
18:06:51 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
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18:41:10 <AnMaster> strange entry in syslog: gdb[28227] trap stack segment ip:44cea2 sp:7fffb79b7b70 error:0
18:41:33 <AnMaster> seems to correspond to the timepoint when gdb died with SIGBUS
18:43:42 <ais523> that's an interesting-looking stack pointer
18:43:51 <ais523> I assume you're using 48-bit adressing
18:44:00 <ais523> which means that it was very nearly at the top of virtual userspace memory
18:44:23 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm using x86_64 which means it is using sign extended 48-bit addresses yes
18:45:03 <ais523> it's just that any address starting 7fff is rather suspicious
18:45:08 <ehird> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article301-page1.html β completely fanless pc, only noise is the HDD
18:45:13 <ehird> wish they still sold it
18:45:22 <ais523> fanless computers have been around for ages
18:45:29 <ais523> but marketing people kept asking for noisy fans on them
18:45:35 <ais523> because customers thought they were broken
18:45:51 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed. anyway what I did was to "display errno", then restart the program I was debugging, caused internal error message from gdb first time, next time I tried it: SIGBUS
18:46:08 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20018.html
18:46:08 <Ilari> SP is stack. That IP also looks interesting.
18:46:15 <ehird> β the cooler I'm intending to get with this new pc
18:46:17 <fizzie> Isn't 7fff where this x86_64 linux always puts the stack? cat /proc/self/maps has a "7fff045d3000-7fff045e8000 rw-p 7ffffffea000 00:00 0 [stack]" entry.
18:46:23 <ehird> I believe the only fan will be the PSU
18:46:33 <fizzie> And given that the executable itself maps to 0x400000, the IP looks very sensible too.
18:46:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes think so, slightly randomised though iirc?
18:46:54 <fizzie> Yes, I've forgotten how many bits of randomness it had. Not too many.
18:47:01 <fizzie> More than in x86_32, though.
18:47:15 <AnMaster> from different runs: 7ffff4a5d000-7ffff4a73000 7fff24db7000-7fff24dcd000 7fff2bbe6000-7fff2bbfc000
18:47:40 <ais523> ehird: any way you could get the PSU independent of the computer itself, laptop-style?
18:47:46 <AnMaster> ais523, where does x86 put it's stack then?
18:47:52 <ehird> ais523: Dunno. There are fanless PSUs, though.
18:47:58 <ehird> ais523: Which I am considering.
18:48:18 <Ilari> AnMaster: Stack top without randomization is BFFFFFFF.
18:48:22 <AnMaster> ffb70000-ffb86000 ffce5000-ffcfb000 ffb90000-ffba6000 and such it seems
18:48:23 <ehird> ais523: The main source of noise will probably be the 10K "VelociRaptor" 300GB drive
18:48:31 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure; in 16 bit it's either in the same segment as the heap, or the adjacent segment
18:48:34 <ais523> but I don't know in 32 bit
18:48:35 <ehird> But it'll be enclosed in this thing: http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/smart_drive_copper.jpg
18:48:36 <AnMaster> Ilari, well seems like my system always randomise it slightly
18:48:59 <ehird> so I doubt it'll be too loud
18:49:12 <Ilari> AnMaster: Or at least it was. Nowadays there can be some additional stuff there so its bit lower.
18:49:22 <ehird> still, the velociraptor is listed as 32dBA vs the main 1tb hd's 26dBA
18:50:02 <Ilari> Looks like 20 bits of randomness from those addresses on 64-bit.
18:50:58 <fizzie> * 8 bits of randomness in 32bit mmaps, 20 address space bits
18:50:58 <fizzie> * 28 bits of randomness in 64bit mmaps, 40 address space bits
18:51:09 <fizzie> Not sure where the stack randomization is done.
18:51:36 <ehird> (apparently the VelociRaptor is the successor to the Raptor, I suspect Randall Munroe involvement)
18:53:50 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/eeephv/ais52307_1.xml
18:56:25 <oklopol> <ais523> but marketing people kept asking for noisy fans on them because customers thought they were broken <<< i've heard of that, but i thought it was a one-time occurrence
18:56:42 <ais523> well, presumably it had an indirect effect
18:56:54 <ais523> in that the enigineers didn't try to make a silent computer for a while after that
18:57:19 <ehird> this is more conclusive proof that marketers were sent from hell to RUIN EVERYTHING
18:58:00 <ais523> anyone looked at my link, btw?
18:58:04 <ais523> it's my latest Enigma level
18:58:06 <ehird> it is an enigma level
18:58:15 <ais523> unfortunately, it's likely to be another one AnMaster doesn't particularly like
18:59:04 <oklopol> we should have a competition, whoever makes a level AnMaster likes first gets 6 cookies
18:59:21 * AnMaster just restarted client, no scrollback
18:59:36 <oklopol> or maybe the original typoed version cokies would be better, i could do with some coke right now
18:59:44 <ais523> AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/eeephv/ais52307_1.xml
18:59:44 <AnMaster> also wth, something is broken with spellchecking now
19:00:45 <oklopol> also i don't need to make algebra exercises today!
19:01:14 <ehird> More Reasons Not To Upgrade Your Computer: Previously, you were thinking about a super-improved algorithm to do something since your bruteforce method would have taken years. Now, ...
19:02:15 <ehird> oklopol: ... = the rest is obvious so why would i insult your inteligamence by typing it
19:02:50 <oklopol> you don't need to, and your brain gets stale?
19:03:15 <ehird> Fast computers cause brain death.
19:03:26 <oklopol> i don't like guessing, i just like making others guess.
19:04:12 <oklopol> in fact often i deduce something pretty much without doubt, but still ask, because i don't consider myself obligated to make that deduction
19:16:42 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know if it's possible to do finer-grained partitioning in linux than per-directory?
19:16:58 <ehird> I'd like ~ to be on the 1tb but ~/local/{bin,lib,etc,...} to be on the raptor
19:17:08 <ehird> where / is on the raptor
19:17:31 <AnMaster> on the raptor? (I restarted client multiple times since I mentioned it, due to fixing bugs after upgrading it)
19:17:57 <AnMaster> anyway what about mounting ~/local with mount --bind?
19:18:31 <AnMaster> or using symlinks and put it somewhere else
19:18:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure what you are trying to do
19:18:53 <ehird> raptor = one of the drives
19:19:23 <ehird> / = raptor, /home = 1TB, but I'd like /home/ehird/local to be = raptor (I'm putting OS stuff on the raptor and data on the 1tb)
19:19:43 <ehird> i could symlink, though I dunno where the target would be -- mount --bind sounds promising, wuzzit do?
19:19:44 <ais523> ehird: use a loopback device mount
19:20:00 <ehird> ais523: I've heard of it but I don't know what it is
19:20:08 <ais523> it's sort of like a hardlinked directory, but done via mounting rather than via linking
19:20:10 <AnMaster> ehird, mount bind mounds one folder in another folder
19:20:15 <ais523> there should be examples all over the place
19:20:21 <AnMaster> can in recent kernels be read only bind mount too
19:20:38 <AnMaster> even if the "real" directory is read write
19:20:41 <ehird> I wonder where I'd put it?
19:21:04 <ehird> maybe /aux/ehird/local or something
19:21:15 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe mkdir /ehird-local; chown ehird:ehird /ehird-local; mont --bind /ehird-local /home/ehird/local
19:21:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you can add it to fstab, but needs a slightly odd syntax
19:22:17 <ehird> what did you use it for?
19:22:25 <AnMaster> /usr/portage /opt/gentoo32/usr/portage none rw,bind 0 0
19:22:39 <AnMaster> the "none" was the odd bit indeed
19:22:51 <ehird> I guess /aux = /opt
19:23:20 <ehird> FHS says /opt/etc should be /etc/opt
19:23:21 <AnMaster> anyway this isn't *nix, how you do this differ between different *nix
19:23:40 <ehird> hmm, /opt is for software only
19:23:50 <ehird> guess /aux/ehird-local would be best
19:24:03 <ehird> AnMaster: is a bind mount any slower?
19:24:54 <AnMaster> ehird, about speed, I guess in theory it might be, or maybe not. I haven't noticed any difference certainly, nor have I performed any benchmarks
19:24:54 <ais523> yay, I just did Magic Triangle
19:26:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know what sort of benchmark you would use either, since once you opened file it would be resolved using inode or such, so dd would show no difference certainly.
19:27:16 <AnMaster> in any case, disk IO itself would be a much larger bottleneck than any indirection overhead from mount --bind
19:28:19 <ais523> bind mount is a pretty simple driver
19:28:31 <ais523> I imagine it's negligible compared with the overhead of the driver for the actual disk
19:28:38 <ais523> which is negligible compared to the disk itself
19:29:46 <ehird> i was kind of happier before I delved into all this hardware stuff
19:29:50 <ehird> software is so much simpler
19:30:20 <AnMaster> ehird, when did you start doing that?
19:30:40 <ehird> AnMaster: shortly after deciding to get a non-Mac.
19:30:44 <fizzie> Personally I've just been mounting sub under subdirectories of /mnt, and symlinking ~/foo if I happened to want a local "alias".
19:31:09 <ehird> Yes, well, won't be in a month or two.
19:31:58 <ais523> fizzie: /media is the standard place to mount things
19:31:58 <ehird> fizzie: /mnt is kind of inaccurate since it's not a separate devic
19:32:00 <AnMaster> ehird, right, but please study hardware more, it is fun, and you will end up coding in C (or even asm) due to caring about overhead and cache locality soon
19:32:09 <ais523> traditionally, /mnt never contains anything, it's used as a temporary mount point
19:32:15 <ais523> as in, the whole thing
19:32:17 <AnMaster> soon after that I predict you will like cfunge
19:32:26 <ehird> ais523: most distros use /mnt = ubuntu's /media
19:32:31 <ehird> AnMaster: I think part of the bliss of a high-end machine is not having to worry about that tuff
19:32:36 <ais523> ehird: no, most distros use /media = ubuntu's /media
19:32:41 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc suse used /media at least
19:32:41 <ehird> ais523: really? okay.
19:33:00 <AnMaster> ais523, /mnt is the traditional one though, which I use on my system too
19:33:04 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, and if you want testing on a core i7 quad-core nehalem @ 3.2ghz I'm happy to help :-P
19:33:24 <fizzie> I've been leaving /media alone, since it smells like some sort of strange auto-mountery thing.
19:33:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah another hal hater :D
19:34:44 <ehird> It amuses me that you get funky ram amounts like 6gb because it works natively with ram multiples of 3gb.
19:34:48 * AnMaster can't stand hal... usually it doesn't set it up the way I want it.
19:34:58 <ehird> Who needs compatibility :-P
19:35:07 <ehird> AnMaster: core i7/"nehalem"
19:35:25 <AnMaster> ehird, so it needs multiples of 3 GB...
19:35:27 <fizzie> I did do something like putting in fstab "/dev/disk/by-id/usb-Generic_CF_0000001-0:0-part1 /media/cf vfat user,noauto 0 0" and "/dev/disk/by-id/usb-Generic_MMC_SD_0000001-0:2-part1 /media/sd vfat user,noauto 0 0" so I can just "mount /media/sd" when I need to mount a sd card from the camera.
19:35:34 <fizzie> That's very media-ific, after all.
19:35:48 <ehird> AnMaster: It can, I believe, it's just less efficient.
19:36:18 <ehird> It's all rather confusing
19:36:29 <ehird> AnMaster: did your friend go into any detail about "core i7 = pentium 2.0"?
19:37:26 <fizzie> "/media : Mount point for removeable media"
19:37:28 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc he said something about long pipeline and hyperthreading, as well as heat
19:37:54 <fizzie> See; I can't put my "another HD with no real place in the filesystem tree" into /media, because it is very much not removable. Well, removable easily, anyway.
19:37:59 <ehird> AnMaster: long pipeline - is this really a big issue? Aren't CPUs very good at branch prediction these days?
19:38:08 <ehird> AnMaster: hyperthreading - sth about security right? I don't care about that
19:38:12 <ais523> did you know that floppy drives are hot-swappable?
19:38:28 <ehird> heat - I think the cooler I am getting is some sort of mega-amazing i7-optimized supercooler
19:38:29 <fizzie> Did you know that ISA cards are hot-swappable?
19:38:39 <ehird> DID YOU KNOW THAT COMPUTERS ARE HOT-SWAPPABLE
19:38:42 <ais523> ehird: being good at branch prediction still doesn't give you a prediction hit every time round
19:38:47 <AnMaster> ais523, somehow I got confused because I read it as "ehird" said that. And thought "only ais would say that"
19:38:56 <ais523> but long-pipeline is nearly always more efficient than short-pipeline
19:38:58 <fizzie> Well, maybe not officially, but certainly I did swap it hot. PCI display adapters do not seem to be very hot-swappable.
19:39:10 <ehird> ais523: yes, well, branch mispredictions happen, no?
19:39:16 <fizzie> Anyway, FHS also says: "Although the use of subdirectories in /mnt as a mount point has recently been common, it conflicts with a much older tradition of using /mnt directly as a temporary mount point." -- so I'm certainly not the only one who's been using /mnt subdirs.
19:39:19 <ehird> with the high clock speed I can't imagine it matters too much
19:39:24 <ais523> and you get a delay equal to the latency of the pipeline, rather than its throughput
19:39:37 <ais523> which is normally 50 or so times as much on modern processors
19:39:41 <ais523> not the end of the world, really
19:39:43 <AnMaster> ehird, they are certainly better, but he said something about overhead when there were misses was way larger, and some apps were faster on his core2 than his core i7, in both cases compiled with last version of icc
19:39:58 <ehird> AnMaster: what specs are the cpus?
19:40:13 <ehird> A core 2 is also on the cards, maybe
19:40:17 <ehird> So I'd be interested
19:40:38 <ehird> is there anywhere listing pipeline sizes or w/e?
19:40:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well it was the non-extreme one I remember. but apart from that I don't remember details, and I lack irc logs from that months, typoed a command when transferring them to CD
19:40:49 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure where I should FHS-approvably mount "large amount of storage that do not belong to any particular user, but contain data files such as multimediastics".
19:40:51 <AnMaster> so no logs from Jan 2009 around any more
19:41:03 <ehird> if he's around sometime i'd appreciate you asking him or whatever
19:41:08 <ehird> always nice to know these things :)
19:41:25 <ehird> fizzie: also, /var, maybe?
19:41:30 <ehird> /var/multimediastics/
19:42:01 <ehird> gotta admit i'm warya bout getting an i7 since they only came out in nov 08
19:42:10 <AnMaster> ehird, he isn't much any more, irc time went downhill since he started at MIT last year..
19:42:23 <AnMaster> and reached near zero in the beginning of 2009
19:42:24 <ehird> Definitive proof that MIT is evil.
19:42:35 <ehird> That was sarcasm :x
19:42:49 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know what his complaint with hyperthreading was?
19:42:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I was playing along... thought it was a joke
19:42:59 <fizzie> It's not exactly "variable data files", though.
19:43:07 <ehird> fizzie: /aux/multimediastics/
19:43:21 <fizzie> There's no /aux in FHS, though.
19:43:57 <ehird> fizzie: I think FHS-approved would be:
19:44:01 <ehird> Create a new group multimediastics
19:44:05 <ehird> Put it in /home/multimediastics/
19:44:39 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... iirc it was something about two hyperthreading processes he ran ended up cache missing all the time, because they had either half of the cache line each or ended up flushing each other cache lines
19:44:39 <fizzie> There is a group for that, actually, so I guess I could put it in /home/groupname; although it's even more complicated now since it's a CIFS mount from that NAS server.
19:45:07 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it caused poor performance in this app he was writing. So he got much better results with hyper threading disabled
19:45:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Hmm. I'm listening but it must be noted that the everything else I've heard about i7s is that they're the best thing since sliced Jesus.
19:46:01 <ehird> core i7 aka Nehalem
19:46:09 <ehird> Intel's new CPU arch, since nov 08
19:46:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well, he was doing some sort of parallel simulation app at MIT, I guess that may be special needs.
19:46:15 <ehird> high-end workstationy thingies
19:46:21 <fizzie> At work they seem to be using /m/host/share -style names, and also /m/fs/purpose for the main home/project-dirs. And the university system was even more complicated, with separate physical tree and logical-tree-made-out-of-symlinks.
19:46:24 <ehird> AnMaster: would make sense
19:46:29 <ehird> I don't intend to be doing that sort of stuff
19:46:58 <ehird> The only things I can imagine will even begin to make full use of the massive power is playing gratuitously high-quality HD videos and maybe a few games
19:47:31 <ehird> anyone used http://banshee-project.org/? looks like a good replacement for itunes
19:47:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well he also did say that reponsiveness was lower in normal use, due to pipeline stalls when switching tasks (or something like that), which was why he ended up calling it pentium4 2.0
19:47:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Hmm. OK. I'll look around.
19:47:57 <AnMaster> I had a p4, I know they (especially the latter models) had that issue.
19:48:09 * ehird googles core i7 sucks
19:48:14 <ehird> ... and finds not much
19:48:25 <ehird> "haha get the core 2 quad cause the core i7 is more expensive and it sucks. amd is better by the way."
19:48:38 <ehird> WHERE THE BEST COMPUTER ADVICE CAN BE FOUND!
19:48:42 <AnMaster> ehird, also he said it ran about as hot as a pentium 4
19:48:51 <ehird> Yes, well, heat isn't an issue, really.
19:49:07 <AnMaster> ehird, it is if you want to avoid fans
19:49:53 <ehird> The fans seem near-silent as far as I can tell. Although yes, the core 2 had that fanless cooler.
19:49:59 <ehird> http://media.bestofmicro.com/K/3/174387/original/013_pcmark_game.jpg β That's pretty good.
19:50:20 <AnMaster> ehird, meh, my phone has some ARM cpu in it. yet it manages without getting hot at all
19:50:31 <ehird> AnMaster: wuz the relevance :D
19:50:31 <AnMaster> and it can even do some simple 3D games!
19:50:58 <ehird> Everyone knows that
19:51:08 <AnMaster> ehird, PPC or ARM for the future!
19:51:20 <ehird> AnMaster: If by future you mean no future, then you're right.
19:51:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well I think arm will continue to be used in embedded devices for quite some time at least
19:52:22 <AnMaster> I guess it will live on for a while in the form of Cell
19:52:23 <fizzie> Fans seem to be pretty silent nowadays, especially when they are big and turn slowly.
19:52:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, no fan would be even more silent.
19:52:51 <fizzie> It doesn't really matter if you can't hear it.
19:53:12 <ehird> fizzie: Mm. Both the setups have a PSU fan, but the i7 has a CPU fan instead of a giant heatsink. I'll look around silentpcreview, probably.
19:53:48 <AnMaster> ehird, GPU fans tend to be loud too btw. My GPU fan is much louder than my CPU one certainly
19:53:58 <ehird> AnMaster: the gfx card is fanless
19:54:24 <ehird> by the company "Gigabyte"
19:54:28 <AnMaster> that is one of those working well under linux?
19:54:38 <ehird> it's the highest-end fanless card that endpcnoise offer
19:55:04 <AnMaster> ehird, there is an alternative though... That I mentioned before
19:55:20 <ais523> ehird: so you're getting a new computer, then
19:55:38 <ehird> ais523: Er. Yes. Welcome to ages ago :P
19:55:40 <AnMaster> computer in different room, some sort of KVM extender
19:55:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, yes.
19:55:56 <ais523> any salient features that I haven't seen because you said them before I joined?
19:55:58 <fizzie> Last I looked (admittedly I guess it's been over a year?) ATI's fglrx driver felt equally crummy to Nvidia's (at least as far as using it is concerned, I don't know about technical details), and the radeonhd driver was pretty alpha-quality.
19:56:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, nvidia drivers just worked, while I got freezes and such with ati.
19:56:47 <AnMaster> was a year or two ago I last used ATI though
19:57:16 <AnMaster> of course both vendors drop support for old cards, and a while after that it will break with new kernels.
19:57:47 <ehird> ais523: Main one under consideration is an intel i7 quad-core 965 "X-TREME!!1111" 3.2ghz, w/ the card I mentioned before, a 10K "velociraptor" 300gb drive for the os, a 7.5k 1tb drive for /home, both in a 100% copper enclosure, 6gb ram, and this case installation: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104470.html#acousti
19:57:55 <AnMaster> open drivers strongly preferred, which leaves you with crappy intel on-board graphics
19:58:07 <ehird> Nothing really earth-shattering; pretty similar to most high-end machines I'd imagine
19:58:13 <ehird> But still very nice
19:58:24 <fizzie> Seems that radeonhd has gained 2D acceleration support for at least some models.
19:58:28 <ais523> I generally go for really low-end computers
19:58:38 <AnMaster> ehird, what about cooling those drive enclosures? harddrives generate heat too
19:58:55 <ehird> AnMaster: They have air holes. :-P
19:59:04 * ais523 checks out llvm + clang development sources
19:59:06 <ehird> And the case has fans built in.
19:59:11 <ehird> From what I can ascertain,.
19:59:38 <ehird> AnMaster: I've looked around a bit, it should dim it quite a bit. Those velociraptors aren't quiet
19:59:57 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104488.html β says it has a bunch of tiny fans
20:00:09 <AnMaster> ehird, which brand is the "velociraptor"?
20:00:14 <ehird> AnMaster: western digital
20:00:57 <AnMaster> ehird, hm most of my harrdrives are pretty quiet, but the one from western digital I can easily hear when it is seeking
20:01:15 <ais523> ehird: which OS are you planning to use?
20:01:37 <AnMaster> ehird, why not a rolling release one
20:01:44 <ais523> wow, the filenames of the llvm source are written in CamelCase
20:01:45 <ehird> 'Cuz ubuntu works well for me.
20:01:52 <ais523> AnMaster: Ubuntu does rolling release too if you want it to
20:01:57 <ais523> just most people don't
20:02:10 <ais523> it tends to be rather buggy every now and then, though
20:02:19 <ais523> because the rolling-release sources aren't as tested as the actual releases
20:02:23 <AnMaster> ais523, does this mean tracking unstable or
20:02:29 <ehird> AnMaster: well, with the GrowUp Japan Full Copper enclosure at the bottom here: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104490.html, plus the case insulation at the bottom here: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104470.html#acousti, and the fact that the case itself is noise-canceling,
20:02:32 <ais523> I'm on ubuntu-proposed, which is somewhere in between
20:02:34 <ehird> I doubt I'll hear the drives much
20:02:38 <AnMaster> ais523, well I prefer distros that have stable rolling releases
20:02:44 <AnMaster> like gentoo, arch linux and so on
20:02:55 <ais523> -proposed is basically asking for changes a few months before everyone else
20:03:03 <ais523> I do it so I can find, report and fix bugs
20:03:17 <ais523> although Ubuntu aren't particularly responsive to bug reports
20:03:25 <AnMaster> ehird, "GrowUp Japan Full Copper enclosure" ... silly name
20:03:34 <ais523> the bug in atd is still there, even though loads of people have reported it and I told Ubuntu what was causing it
20:03:35 <ehird> Well, the company's called GrowUp Japan.
20:03:39 <ehird> And it's an enclosure that's fully copper.
20:03:48 <AnMaster> ehird, which is a silly name for a company
20:03:51 <ais523> I think it's nice and descriptive
20:04:44 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway does the case itself act as a big heat sink<q> since it is copper it should conduct heat pretty well
20:04:52 <ehird> AnMaster: It probably does
20:04:58 <ehird> Hard drives aren't generally cooled are they...?
20:05:08 <ais523> they're generally just cooled by case circulation
20:05:13 <ais523> they don't need more than that
20:05:37 -!- ais523 has changed nick to backspace.
20:05:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I was writing almost the same line but you were faster...
20:05:41 -!- backspace has changed nick to ais523.
20:05:52 <ais523> someone else's nick...
20:06:32 <ehird> I configured an AMD system that's quite cheaper than the intel one
20:06:45 <AnMaster> ehird, how many dB is that velicoraptor
20:06:59 <Sgeo> Would there be any advantages to a computer system that used balanced ternary?
20:07:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't know dB, but the dBA is 32, compared to the regular HD's 22
20:07:07 <AnMaster> ehird, same cpu speed/core count<q>
20:07:22 <ehird> AnMaster: amd was 3.0 vs 3.2, but yes, same core count
20:07:24 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104478.html
20:07:39 <ehird> The AMD one only has 4GB of ram
20:07:47 <ehird> It's a "Phenom II 940 BLACK EDITION".
20:07:58 <ehird> Apart from that it's identical to the i7
20:08:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the drive will still be quite noisy, and it will take a 5.25" drive, so check that you have enough of them for all your drives
20:08:28 <AnMaster> which mean two harddrives and one dvd I guess
20:08:28 <ehird> AnMaster: endpcnoise.com lets you configure an enclosure for each drive
20:08:36 <ehird> also, no enclosure for the dvd available
20:08:56 <ehird> anyway, the copper enclosure apparently chops off 4db on average, their site says it chops off more for louder drives
20:09:12 <ehird> I figure that it'll probably end up ~3dBA louder than the other drive
20:09:52 <ehird> googling suggests the phenom ii is good but slightly slower than the i7
20:10:08 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/p182.jpg I wanna know what's on top of thatb ox
20:10:19 <ehird> Γomething to do with the fan controls I guess
20:10:44 <AnMaster> ehird, considering the speed and the capacity of the drive I don't think it will last as long. In my experience slower and lower capacity drives are way more durable than the most extreme ones
20:10:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, there's also a 150GB option.
20:11:06 <ehird> I had the higher price for dual-booting, but it may be excessive.
20:11:19 <ehird> AnMaster: A friend has had multiple Raptors in a RAID 5 for, I think, 5 years
20:11:23 <ehird> and he says they've never failed
20:11:28 <ehird> I think they were 250gb
20:12:12 <ehird> hmm, some googling suggests that when i7 gets more performance, it blows everything away, but it has quite a few situations where it performs worse
20:12:23 <ehird> anything will be a huge upgrade over this core 2 duo 2.2ghz, anyway
20:12:30 <AnMaster> ehird, well duh, that is because he uses RAID 5, should he have used a single one it would have failed. Same reason as the action of taking regular backups reduces risk for disk failing (while not taking backups make it much more likely). Closely related to Murphy's law
20:13:03 <ehird> AnMaster: sarcasm?
20:13:24 <AnMaster> ehird, semi-joke... there is a grain of truth in it though
20:13:58 <AnMaster> the universe is out to get you :P
20:14:27 <ehird> I've never, ever backed up my drives in my life
20:14:35 <ehird> and only once have I ever, ever had HD failure of any kind
20:14:40 <ehird> and that was mainly my fault
20:14:46 <oklopol> my computers usually die of a hd failure
20:14:47 <ehird> and i didn't lose any valuable data
20:14:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your luck stat?
20:14:57 <ehird> AnMaster: very low, surprisingly.
20:15:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, how many times did you roll dice then
20:15:42 -!- asie[Virus] has joined.
20:15:55 <fizzie> I had a HD failure when I dropped a glass of coca-cola on a computer that otherwise ran quite fine spread out on the floor for a couple of months, since I didn't happen to have a chassis for it.
20:16:14 <fizzie> The glass also had a breakage-failure.
20:16:25 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], reinstall OS. That's the only safe way.
20:16:49 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], don't start any old apps of course.
20:17:09 <ais523> nowadays it's nearly always worms, rather than viruses
20:17:09 <asie[Virus]> AnMaster: I can't get rid of 500GB of data can I?
20:17:10 <AnMaster> reformat disk, clean reinstall, run update apps.
20:17:24 <oklopol> viruses only strike if you believe in them
20:17:45 <ais523> AnMaster: clean reinstalls rarely work as well nowadays because the apps assume you're trying to pirate them
20:17:58 <ais523> but if you know which malware it was, normally just removing it works
20:17:58 <oklopol> WHAT YOU HAVE WINDOWS? LOL WHAT AN UNOS!
20:18:06 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh, right, here -- you can have this 6: β
20:18:08 * oklopol is a proud ubuntu user now
20:18:18 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:18:20 <asie[Virus]> WHAT THERE'S NO SONY VEGAS FOR LINUX? LOL WHAT A FAIL!
20:18:21 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't it same thing as a rootkit, you can't be sure it is clean without a complete reinstall
20:18:25 <ais523> wow, you got the Ubuntu attitude really quickly
20:18:28 <oklopol> fizzie: pretty, but i didn't roll it.
20:18:31 <ais523> AnMaster: rootkits are something different
20:18:35 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
20:18:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well virus do have that ability easily on windows
20:18:53 <oklopol> asie[Virus]: what's sony vogue?
20:18:53 <ais523> well, yes, doesn't mean all of them do it though
20:19:07 <fizzie> oklopol: You can roll your monitor; but do it quick, while it's still on-screen.
20:19:12 <asie[Virus]> AnMaster: The way to get rid of a virus completely is to scan everything on everywhere with 10 antiviruses, and THEN a quick reinstall
20:19:13 <ais523> also, you can clean a rootkit without a clean reinstall, you just need a second OS
20:19:30 <asie[Virus]> ais523: Hopefully Virut fails to work in Safe Mode
20:19:48 <ais523> asie[Virus]: just look up how that particular virus works
20:19:51 <oklopol> fizzie: actually i'm saving my first 6 for the world championship next month
20:20:08 <asie[Virus]> In basic terms, it infects every app the PC touches.
20:20:10 <ais523> oklopol: there's a world Yachtzee championship?
20:20:27 <asie[Virus]> so you can use THAT to scan the PC thoroughly
20:20:28 <oklopol> ais523: yes and i'm going to win it
20:20:29 <ais523> oh, it is an actual genuine virus?
20:20:41 <oklopol> and roll my first 6 as the final blow
20:21:27 <oklopol> maybe three sixes and have like a cardboard satan rise up behind me and play some serious metal
20:21:35 <ais523> woah, it's a ridiculous and pointless virus
20:21:41 <ais523> it hooks the syscalls for creating and opening files
20:21:50 <ais523> and just infects the resulting file with itself
20:22:01 <AnMaster> the best way to run windows if you have to would be to use virtualbox or such to do it
20:22:32 <asie[Virus]> So you know what happens when it infects logonui
20:22:52 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], why were you logged on with admin rights anyway
20:22:57 <AnMaster> and how did you get this virus
20:22:58 <oklopol> ais523: the point of viruses is to exist.
20:23:20 <ais523> the point of viruses nowadays is normally to make money
20:23:28 <AnMaster> I mean atm I do have a shell as root open yes, because I'm upgrading X, but usually I don't
20:23:35 <ais523> whereas the virus asie's got just trashes the computer
20:23:36 <asie[Virus]> AnMaster: I install too much apps, change too much settings and actually use admin rights for #1 and I don't know for #2.
20:23:45 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think I ever open root shells nowadays
20:24:01 <oklopol> ais523: that's just the viruses you hear about, i'm sure most viruses are harmless guys just trying to make a living.
20:24:10 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], why didn't your antivirus catch it
20:24:12 <oklopol> i don't see why all the prosecution
20:24:23 <ais523> AnMaster: because none of the big expensive ones catch it yet, it seems
20:24:43 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], no I don't promise that
20:24:55 <AnMaster> ais523, there have been some security bugs in sudo, in the last few years, none in su though
20:24:55 <ais523> asie[Virus]: even if AnMaster did, oerjan or someone could logread it
20:25:00 <ais523> and then come in later and laugh
20:25:21 <oklopol> yeah oerjan is really mean always laughing at people's idiocy.
20:25:23 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], I predict it is either because you didn't have an antivirus, or didn't update it
20:25:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I doubt those security bugs were for using sudo as a su replacement
20:25:38 <AnMaster> asie[Virus], well, also sudo su - is too long to type
20:25:53 <ais523> AnMaster: but I don't use sudo to go to a root shell
20:25:55 <asie[Virus]> AnMaster: The most important thing is that it's being fixed
20:26:00 <AnMaster> ais523, and sudo for every command tends to mess up complex bash commands
20:26:07 <oklopol> wait actually i remember a few instances of him laughing at idiocy, but it's very rare
20:26:18 <ais523> AnMaster: if you're sudoing complex bash commands, you're probably sudoing it wrong
20:26:29 <ais523> running complicated commands as root is generally a bad idea IMO
20:26:49 <AnMaster> ais523, well alternative would do to type it manually. which is more error prone
20:26:53 <ais523> I use sudo mostly for make install, package manager, recursive chown/chmod
20:27:01 <ais523> and you can always sudo a shell script
20:27:02 <AnMaster> than a for dir in */; do <something>; done
20:27:14 <ais523> AnMaster: for dir in */; do sudo <something>; done
20:27:29 <ais523> unless you really badly need root privs for the iteration over directories
20:27:36 <ais523> sudo only what you need to be root
20:27:44 <AnMaster> ais523, well permission denied. I was doing this in /var/qmail/queue to fix an issue
20:27:52 <AnMaster> a directory I can't read as a normal user
20:28:07 <ais523> why didn't you su to the user who owns the directory
20:28:34 <AnMaster> ais523, because of home=/nonexistant shell=/bin/false of the qmailq user
20:28:44 <ais523> AnMaster: that isn't a problem with sudo
20:28:53 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, the issue were wrong permissions on certain subdirs
20:28:55 <ais523> and you can do it with su
20:29:01 <ais523> you just need nested su, once to root, once to qmail
20:29:07 <AnMaster> ais523, so in fact I couldn't have done that
20:29:08 -!- asie[Virus] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
20:30:22 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I try to minimise number of suid binaries
20:30:40 <ais523> oh, and sudo + su = one too many?
20:30:46 <ais523> why don't you replace all your suid binaries with busybox?
20:31:26 <ais523> (note, this is not a serious suggestion, there would be loads of reasons not to do that)
20:32:17 <AnMaster> ais523, passwd, su, unix_chkpwd, Xorg, + some file in /usr/libexec are the only suid binaries on my system. there are a few more non-root sgid such as nethack
20:32:56 <ais523> suid root? or suid something else?
20:33:01 <ais523> I imagine it needs to mess with the graphics drivers
20:33:10 <AnMaster> it needs to mess with /dev/mem yes
20:33:42 * ais523 wonders vaguely about changing the ownership of /dev/mem
20:34:00 <AnMaster> ais523, it sounds like a bad idea, you could potentially crash stuff that way
20:34:10 <AnMaster> +iirc it needs to do other stuff too that is low level
20:34:45 <fizzie> You can run XdirectFB as non-root, I think.
20:34:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, I need accelerated 3D though
20:35:11 <AnMaster> so I'm stuck with nvidia driver
20:35:21 <AnMaster> ais523, setting the mtrr registers
20:35:36 <AnMaster> ais523, memory type range register
20:35:40 <ais523> also, everything in /proc is safe to cat if you aren't root
20:35:59 <AnMaster> used to mark some *physical* memory ranges as write combine and suich
20:36:05 <fizzie> There is that PAT thing which is supposed to be a successor of MTRRs.
20:36:48 <AnMaster> and pat is per-page (virtual page that is)
20:37:47 <fizzie> My hardware knowledge mostly comes from kernel config questions. "CONFIG_X86_PAT: Use PAT attributes to setup page level cache control. PATs are the modern equivalents of MTRRs and are much more flexible than MTRRs."
20:38:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes added in recent kernels.
20:38:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, so not surprising it is still not as widely used
20:38:49 <AnMaster> of course even my old pentium 3 actually supports pat...
20:39:04 <AnMaster> though it is disabled there due to a CPU errata (erratum??)
20:39:20 <AnMaster> something about WC PAT being handled as UC instead
20:40:14 <fizzie> Heh, I was wondering why the /proc/mtrr list was so simple (just two entries), but it was that headless server box and not this desktop.
20:40:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about on the desktop
20:41:03 <AnMaster> it is two entries on my desktop too btw
20:41:05 <AnMaster> reg00: base=0x00000000 ( 0MB), size=1024MB: write-back, count=1
20:41:05 <AnMaster> reg01: base=0x40000000 (1024MB), size= 512MB: write-back, count=1
20:41:56 <fizzie> reg00: base=0x000000000 ( 0MB), size= 2048MB, count=1: write-back
20:41:56 <fizzie> reg01: base=0x080000000 ( 2048MB), size= 1024MB, count=1: write-back
20:41:56 <fizzie> reg02: base=0x0c0000000 ( 3072MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back
20:41:56 <fizzie> reg03: base=0x0cfe00000 ( 3326MB), size= 2MB, count=1: uncachable
20:41:59 <fizzie> reg04: base=0x100000000 ( 4096MB), size= 512MB, count=1: write-back
20:41:59 <fizzie> reg05: base=0x120000000 ( 4608MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:13 <Deewiant> reg00: base=0x000000000 ( 0MB), size= 2048MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:14 <Deewiant> reg01: base=0x080000000 ( 2048MB), size= 1024MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:14 <Deewiant> reg02: base=0x0c0000000 ( 3072MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:14 <Deewiant> reg03: base=0x0d0000000 ( 3328MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-combining
20:42:14 <Deewiant> reg04: base=0x0e0000000 ( 3584MB), size= 512MB, count=1: uncachable
20:42:16 <Deewiant> reg05: base=0x100000000 ( 4096MB), size= 4096MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:18 <Deewiant> reg06: base=0x200000000 ( 8192MB), size= 512MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:21 <Deewiant> reg07: base=0x220000000 ( 8704MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back
20:42:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: A winner is you!
20:42:43 * ais523 is confused by asie's virus
20:42:48 <Deewiant> MTRR has been nothing but a source of troubles for me
20:42:49 <ais523> it seems designed just to junk the compuer
20:43:00 <ais523> but it doesn't do it all at once, and it only it infects executables
20:44:12 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Set up by yours truly as well
20:44:23 <AnMaster> why would you manually set it up
20:44:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: See http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12553 for the whole story, I can't be bothered to reiterate
20:45:31 <Deewiant> Actually I guess the relevant parts are only in the later comments but anyway
20:46:47 <fizzie> Ooh, is niΓ°avellir your non-ascii hostname? :p
20:47:28 <fizzie> Everyone seems to have a quad-core hyper-computar nowadays. Oh, well.
20:47:36 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:47:52 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
20:51:15 <ais523> Deewiant: that's a weird bug
20:51:54 <AnMaster> ais523, seems we finished reading it at about the same time
20:52:46 <AnMaster> never heard of them. Tell me what it would be in Swedish and I'll try
20:52:53 <AnMaster> though I don't much like berries in general
20:53:24 <AnMaster> and what would the question about them be
20:54:59 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudberry http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjortron
20:55:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, btw "sylt hjortron" sounds very strange... "hjortronsylt" would make much more sense gramatically
20:55:41 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I think all jam is sour.
20:56:00 <psygnisfive> i cant tell why they said sylt hjortron instead of hjortronsylt
20:57:24 <fizzie> Fi words for that berry are lakka and hilla, I've never found out why there are two so completely different words for it.
20:57:37 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, doesn't make a lot of sense in English either
20:57:52 <psygnisfive> english and swedish are almost identical anyway
20:58:01 <psygnisfive> Finnish: lakka, suomuurain, hilla, muurain, lintti, valokki, nevamarja
20:58:03 <ehird> 20:25 AnMaster: asie[Virus], well, also sudo su - is too long to type β sudo -s
20:58:34 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, we do have a different word order in questions...
20:58:55 <fizzie> Yes, lakka and hilla were just my guess for the most common ones.
20:58:59 <ehird> 20:18 asie[Virus]: WHAT THERE'S NO SONY VEGAS FOR LINUX? LOL WHAT A FAIL!
20:59:02 <ehird> you're a retard btw
20:59:04 <psygnisfive> can you give me a statement/question pair, with english words but swedish syntax?
20:59:15 <AnMaster> ehird, that was meant to highlight ais523, mistab
20:59:20 <ehird> 20:47 fizzie: Everyone seems to have a quad-core hyper-computar nowadays. Oh, well. β but of the course!
20:59:30 <ehird> = opens root shell
20:59:42 <ehird> alias ss='sudo -s'
20:59:48 <psygnisfive> Swedish: hjortron (commonly used); multebΓ€r, myrbΓ€r, snΓ₯tterblomma, solbΓ€r, snΓ₯ttren/snattren (locally used)
21:00:11 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well "var heter du?" "what named you?", though that isn't really a good translation either
21:00:20 <ehird> 20:42 ais523: it seems designed just to junk the compuer
21:00:20 <ehird> 20:42 ais523: *computer
21:00:22 <ehird> 20:43 ais523: but it doesn't do it all at once, and it only it infects executables
21:00:24 <ehird> 20:43 ais523: why?
21:00:29 <ehird> Some people want things to break.
21:00:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: Also "suomuurain" is just silly. "Swamp-masonrymaker"?
21:00:41 <ais523> yes, but it could just reformat the hard drive or overwrite with random data or whatever
21:01:22 <Deewiant> fizzie: I'm not sure that "masonrymaker" is quite the intended meaning... and it does grow in swamps
21:01:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, maybe, I don't know the fancy names for it. I just know how to speak it.
21:01:37 <ehird> ais523: some people are perverse.
21:01:58 <ehird> I should write a virus sometime, everyone's gotta do that. :P
21:02:06 <ais523> ehird: it might be to give it a chance to spread, it has a tendency to infect programs that try to remove it from USB sticks
21:02:11 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, a direct translation of that sounds ok kind of
21:02:13 <psygnisfive> im fairly certain swedish is SVO with no V2 properties so
21:02:24 -!- gavv has quit ("EKG2 - It's better than sex!").
21:02:25 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "jag gick inte till affΓ€ren"
21:02:39 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, hm. that sounds odd
21:02:49 <ehird> i have some respect for virus makers, they're clever folk
21:03:26 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "<psygnisfive> I went to the store not?" <-- translating that straight to Swedish doesn't work
21:03:44 <psygnisfive> i didn't expect it would, to be honest. whats the proper swedish?
21:03:48 <AnMaster> "gick jag inte till affΓ€ren?"
21:03:49 <ais523> well, the sentence doesn't make sense in English
21:03:54 <AnMaster> would be the question, if someone claimed you didn't
21:04:16 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, as a statement it would be "jag gick inte till affΓ€ren"
21:04:27 <fizzie> Can't you two just agree on the word order specified at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_grammar#Syntax ?
21:04:45 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, but different in questions sometimes as I said.
21:05:24 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, why of course? English doesn't.
21:06:03 <psygnisfive> you have auxiliary verbs in swedish, right?
21:06:30 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, no idea. Since I don't know what you mean with "auxiliary verbs"
21:06:36 <AnMaster> I don't know all these fancy terms
21:06:38 <psygnisfive> I will go to the store --> jag en:will en:go till affΓ€ren
21:06:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: kan, mΓ₯ste, etc.
21:06:57 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: jag ska gΓ₯ till affΓ€ren
21:07:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, like English has "to talk" or such<q>
21:08:04 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, that Θ§ is not the right char
21:08:28 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I don't know how to type the a-dot
21:09:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:09:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, I know for my keyboard layout :-P
21:09:46 <AnMaster> don't know how to translate it
21:09:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: Please acknowledge his rightness soon, it'll get noisy otherwise.
21:09:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:09:58 <psygnisfive> jag ska inte ga till affaren << i will not go to the store
21:10:09 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, only if your dots got mangled
21:10:39 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, ska == will in this case
21:10:57 <oklopol> yeah it's pretty tense you should give it a massage
21:11:18 <oklopol> psygnisfive: looks about right
21:11:20 <fizzie> So what do you call the word-order flip which happens if you start with an adverb? "today I will not go to the store" -> "I dag ska jag inte gΓ₯ till affΓ€ren", not "jag ska" there.
21:11:32 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you can't "gΓ₯ by car" like you can "go by car" in English
21:11:41 <psygnisfive> jag T inte V till affΓ€ren --- in the negative
21:12:14 <AnMaster> in fact I can't think of a generic transportation verb like the English "go" in Swedish
21:12:36 <AnMaster> I would use "Γ₯ka" for bus/car/train/aircraft or whatever
21:12:44 <oklopol> AnMaster: stop being a penisdant, this is not about swedish but linguistics
21:12:50 <psygnisfive> notice the relative ordering of T, V, and "inte"
21:13:02 <ehird> closely related to prostitutes and the presdient
21:13:12 <oklopol> yes it's like pedant but really insulting.
21:13:17 <psygnisfive> since there is no T, V moves over inte, and sits where T normally would
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21:13:39 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what, I didn't read what you said.
21:13:47 <oklopol> psygnisfive: verb is second.
21:13:53 <fizzie> psygnisfive: So what's the linguistic funky-name for the fact that Swedish does "jag ska ..." => "i dag ska jag ...", but English just keeps "I will ..." => "Today I will ...".
21:14:09 <psygnisfive> oklopol: actually i dont think it is for swedish
21:14:31 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well that's what they teach as a rule, it has a few exceptions.
21:14:40 <oklopol> i don't remember the exceptions tho
21:14:56 <fizzie> Great, like the missile.
21:15:19 <psygnisfive> i didnt think swedish has it but i guess it does
21:15:33 <psygnisfive> so that explains even further why swedish word order is different
21:15:34 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_grammar#Syntax
21:15:45 <oklopol> wait actually i'm not sure there were exceptions really
21:15:57 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it gets pretty interesting when you have ...subsentences
21:16:01 <ehird> nice way to respond to questions, AnMaster
21:16:15 <psygnisfive> oklopol: yes, i believe V2 vanishes in relative clauses
21:16:15 <AnMaster> ehird, he could just have looked there instead
21:16:24 <ehird> god forbid he ask a native feature
21:16:29 <oklopol> you have have a whole sentence, and after that verb is second considering the subsentence as one word
21:16:30 <ehird> that can't POSSIBLY have advantages
21:16:48 <ehird> it's "of course" dammit >.<
21:16:56 <oklopol> psygnisfive: of course, yes, i just like it :)
21:17:29 <psygnisfive> V2 word order doesnt highlight this at all. :P
21:17:40 <AnMaster> subsentence? Is that inskjutna bisatser? Like "today I went to the lake, which is in Norway, in my red car" where "which is in Norway" would be a inskjuten bisats
21:17:48 <AnMaster> or is subsentence something else
21:17:57 <oklopol> it's not a subsentence, i just don't remember the term
21:18:03 <psygnisfive> perhaps a better example would be something like
21:18:07 <oklopol> because i don't remember any terms atm
21:18:18 <psygnisfive> because I went to the lake, I got very wet
21:18:25 <fizzie> Also the "inte" part moves elsewhere in those dependent clauses. "..., because I don't go to the store" => "..., eftersom jag inte gΓ₯r till affΓ€ren". I guess.
21:18:33 <psygnisfive> or something like "because I went to the lake, got I very wet"
21:18:38 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> oklopol, all languages have recursion. :P <-- no. There are plently of languages that only have loops through while or for style loops
21:18:45 <oklopol> psygnisfive: V2 does highlight it.
21:18:57 <AnMaster> even you should know that psygnisfive!
21:19:11 <AnMaster> and of course there are languages with neither
21:19:38 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, well since this is #esoteric we should be doing computer languages really
21:19:54 <oklopol> AnMaster: even considering both kinds of languages, you're addressing a completely different issue
21:19:55 <ais523> psygnisfive: the language I was working on as part of my University project was deliberately sub-TC
21:20:00 <oklopol> bf has the kind of recursion we're talking about
21:20:03 <ais523> in particular, there was no way to express recursion in it
21:20:05 <oklopol> it has a recursive syntax.
21:20:11 <fizzie> The final exam of our Swedish course is rather soon after Easter, and the Swedish word order is something they've been desperately trying to make us grok.
21:20:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you think it is hard
21:20:35 <psygnisfive> fizzie: it'd help if you understood some modern syntactic theory :(
21:21:06 <oklopol> ais523: for ef, i decided to do functions for convenience, but made them non-lazy macros, so you'd have to use ef's more interesting features for actual computation
21:21:11 <oklopol> (it's the fixed point language)
21:21:13 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> because I went to the lake, I got very wet <- wouldn't even have a comma in Swedish: eftersom jag gick till sjΓΆn blev jag vΓ₯t
21:21:20 <psygnisfive> i dont claim to know much about swedish syntax -- i forgot swedish was v2! -- but knowing theory is pretty helpful
21:21:29 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, eftersom jag gick till sjΓΆn blev jag mycket vΓ₯t
21:21:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, personally I don't really get why the "clausal adverb / negation" part (like "inte", "redan" and so on) has to move so that "jag gΓ₯r inte ..." in a dependent clause turns into "..., eftersom jag inte gΓ₯r". Where's the logic?
21:22:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't think anyone thought about this properly when they decided upon it. I mean few natural languages make sense when you think about it.
21:23:13 <psygnisfive> swedish is either V2 in the TP domain, or V2 in the CP domain with underlying SVO
21:23:46 <ehird> AnMaster: CP=child porn
21:23:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, what's wrong with cp file otherfile
21:24:01 <fizzie> Yes, I guess that's the traditional cop-out. It's just that I'd be perfectly happy with "..., eftersom jag gΓ₯r inte" -- it doesn't sound "oh god that's wrong" to me -- if I didn't happen to know the rule about it changing places.
21:24:04 <AnMaster> ehird, duh I was misinterpreting in a different way
21:24:34 <AnMaster> "jag inte gΓ₯r in", where on earth would that make sense
21:24:39 <psygnisfive> AnMaster: Well, personally I don't really get why the "clausal adverb / negation" part (like "inte", "redan" and so on) has to move so that "jag gΓ₯r inte ..." in a dependent clause turns into "..., eftersom jag inte gΓ₯r". Where's the logic?
21:24:44 <oklopol> fizzie: then maybe you're a noob :)
21:24:48 <Deewiant> AnMaster: '"jag inte gΓ₯r" in lower clauses'
21:24:50 <ehird> 21:24 psygnisfive: AnMaster: Well, personally I don't really get why the "clausal adverb / negation" part (like "inte", "redan" and so on) has to move so that "jag gΓ₯r inte ..." in a dependent clause turns into "..., eftersom jag inte gΓ₯r". Where's the logic?
21:24:56 <ehird> that's very un- psygnisfive lik talk
21:25:08 <oklopol> fizzie: you should recognize it as a ...sweticizm in finnish people's spech
21:25:15 <psygnisfive> fizzie, the logic is actually not that inte is moving at all
21:25:18 <ehird> yeah it seemed fizbanic
21:25:51 <oklopol> i lost my brain of thought.
21:26:00 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, example of this in subsentence
21:26:02 <fizzie> Well, that's certainly more logical, moving the verb around.
21:26:05 <AnMaster> because I don't know all these fancy words
21:26:14 <ehird> 21:25 ehird: yeah it seemed fizbanic
21:26:14 <psygnisfive> specifically, the verb is moving to the position held by the tense head (like the word "will"), most likely, and then that position is moving to the position held by relativizers in the subclauses
21:26:16 <AnMaster> but given an example I can provide a "correct" example
21:26:45 <psygnisfive> but fizzie, if there is a REAL relativizer in those positions, as we'd expect in the lower clauses, then the verb cant move there, so the position of the verb should be different
21:26:49 <AnMaster> just skip all those fancy words if you want any answer
21:26:55 <psygnisfive> which is actually what we get in all the V2 languages that use that position.
21:27:07 <AnMaster> "adjective", "noun", "verb" and such I'm fine with
21:27:15 <ehird> AnMaster: stop using fancy terms like megabytes
21:27:23 <psygnisfive> to be honest, i'd have to give you a crash course in syntactic theory for it to make complete sense :P
21:27:30 <AnMaster> ehird, well this is a computer channel, not a linguistics channel
21:27:40 <fizzie> psygnisfive: If it helps, adding an auxliary verb makes it go: "..., eftersom jag inte kan gΓ₯ ..." (..., because I can't go)
21:27:42 <ehird> AnMaster: the conversation is about linguistics
21:27:44 <psygnisfive> nor do i know the precise details of swedish V2
21:27:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I could translate English ones to idiomatic Swedish ones
21:28:00 <fizzie> Anyway, I know it well enough to pass the exam, I guess that's enough. It's not like I'm perspiring... ahem, aspiring to be a linguist.
21:28:23 <ehird> linguistics is sweaty work
21:28:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It?
21:28:57 <ehird> AnMaster: thanks me and fizzie hopped on that bandwagon 5 months ago
21:29:17 <ehird> 21:28 fizzie: The Answer!
21:29:19 <psygnisfive> fizzie: imagine a sentence has some general positions like this: SpecC C Subj Neg T V ...
21:29:21 <ehird> 21:28 ehird: psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It?
21:29:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> linguistics is sweaty work
21:29:59 <psygnisfive> fizzie: C is the clausal relativizers. something like "that" and such. Subj is the subject, Neg is "inte", T is modals and words like "will", V is the verb
21:30:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It?
21:30:13 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but we've established that your net connection is slower than a slow thing
21:30:20 <AnMaster> ehird, not much I can do about it
21:30:29 <AnMaster> because then I would have to wait even more
21:30:29 <ehird> 13:28:22 <fizzie> The Answer!
21:30:29 <ehird> 13:28:23 <ehird> linguistics is sweaty work
21:30:31 <ehird> 13:28:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It?
21:30:44 <AnMaster> ehird, so just accept that my connection is slow instead
21:30:59 <ehird> AnMaster: no. you should have a live fiber optic link to clog
21:31:01 <AnMaster> ehird, complaining about it won't fix it.
21:31:05 <ehird> yet talk via AnMaster
21:31:24 <psygnisfive> fizzie: in normal sentences, C is empty, because the clause isnt relativized. so what we do is this: move V to T position if T is empty. move T to C position if C is empty, move Subj to SpecC position if C is empty.
21:32:04 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, isn't this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_grammar#Syntax
21:32:19 <psygnisfive> so, fizzie, consider: in a past-tense NEGATIVE (because itll show movement) main clause, C is empty.
21:32:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, have you read the page yet
21:32:31 <AnMaster> or did you just ignore everyone who linked it
21:32:40 <psygnisfive> ignored it because its not going to be in theory :P
21:32:48 <fizzie> psygnisfive: They can also stick a "clausal adverb" like "redan" == en:already to the place where negation normally goes. But okay.
21:33:02 <AnMaster> Fundament Main verb Subject (if not fundament) Clausal Adverb/negation Verb (in infinitive or supine) Object Spatial Adverb Temporal Adverb
21:33:02 <AnMaster> Conjunction Subject Clausal Adverb/Negation Main Verb Verb (in infinitive or supine) Object Spatial Adverb Temporal Adverb
21:33:50 <psygnisfive> fizzie: so we have SpecC C=0 Subj=jag Neg=inte T=0 V=gick --> move V to T: SpecC C=0 Subj=jag Neg=inte T=V=gick
21:34:36 <psygnisfive> fizzie: move T to C: SpecC C=T=V=gick Subj=jag Neg=inte ---> move Subj to SpecC: SpecC=jag C=T=V=gick Neg=inte
21:34:56 <psygnisfive> but if theres an over T head you cant move the V to T so you get
21:35:51 <psygnisfive> if you have an overt clause relativizer, say, "because"
21:36:03 <psygnisfive> T cant raise to C (and so neither does the subject raise to SpecC)
21:36:28 <psygnisfive> SpecC C=eftersom Subj=jag Neg=inte T=ska V=gΓ₯
21:36:38 <fizzie> Uh.. how did that C=0 .. T=V=gick turn into C=T=V=gick before the Neg part? There is also some sort of T-to-C thing? Right.
21:37:13 <psygnisfive> yeah. swedish must have T-to-C with XP-to-SpecC
21:37:36 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> Jag gick inte ... <psygnisfive> jag ska inte gΓ₯ <psygnisfive> eftersom jaq inte ska gΓ₯ <-- all correct
21:37:38 <psygnisfive> I say XP to SpecC because you dont have to actually do Subj-to-SpecC, as in the "today went I ..." examples
21:37:47 <AnMaster> (which is all I can contribute with)
21:38:15 <psygnisfive> I expect that in the Today-to-SpecC examples it'd be
21:38:16 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, though the message that you won't walk did get through the first time...
21:38:19 <fizzie> psygnisfive: Okay, a winner is you. Although if it doesn't horribly offend you, I think I'll do it the lazy way in the exam (three different word order templates for the only three different cases we'll encounter -- main clause; main clause starting with adverb or some subordinate clause; or a subordinate clause), because I think I'm more likely to not mess that up.
21:38:27 <psygnisfive> "today went I not to the store" right anmaster?
21:38:43 <AnMaster> that sounds like bad English grammar
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21:39:32 <psygnisfive> fizzie: ok. but now you know, and you can practice for the futuer! infact, i can teach you more about syntactic theory and point you in the direction of some articles that look at swedish syntax. it should help you.
21:40:02 <AnMaster> Idag gick jag inte till affΓ€ren. correct but not how I would say it in casual talk probably
21:40:22 <AnMaster> "idag va jag inte Γ₯ handlade"
21:40:41 <oklopol> <psygnisfive> anmaster: Hooray! Theory works! :D <<< theory always works, sometimes the mean reality doesn't work around it, but who cares.
21:41:18 <psygnisfive> if so, then whatever. we dont care about the actual words, we just care about the categories of the words.
21:41:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so it means "today I didn't shop" (correct English, non-literal"
21:42:02 <AnMaster> now explain that with your theories!
21:42:02 <psygnisfive> the point is, the the word order is XP V Subj Neg ...
21:42:32 <psygnisfive> which, fizzie, is a case where something else raises to SpecC and the Subj stays low, next to Neg/Inte
21:42:33 <oklopol> psygnisfive: it's "today i was not and shopped"
21:42:33 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you claim you can explain the spoken "today was I not and shopped" (not for written text)
21:42:49 <oklopol> assuming Γ₯ means och, which i didn't think it does
21:43:09 <psygnisfive> anmaster: in terms of the relevant word order, yes.
21:43:28 <AnMaster> in a formal text or even non-formal
21:43:56 <oklopol> i thought it was Deewiant who said Γ₯ was och
21:44:04 <oklopol> then again i'm not sure he's ever wrong either.
21:44:11 <psygnisfive> anmaster: eftersom jag inte va Γ₯ handlade?
21:45:14 <oklopol> psygnisfive: you can't pull of the contractions!
21:45:19 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, sounds strange. I would not add those "filler" words "va Γ₯" (var och) in that case
21:45:38 <ehird> psygnisfive: note: AnMaster takes his awkward swedish as a matter of pride
21:45:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: you're kinda missing the point of syntax.
21:45:47 <AnMaster> I wouldn't use filler words there
21:46:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, I'm talking about idiomatic Swedish in gnereal
21:46:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, my point exactly
21:46:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "eftersom jag inte handlade"
21:46:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: not saying that's not an interesting topic
21:46:42 <AnMaster> "ska du inte ta och handla idag?" <-- asking someone if he/she shouldn't better go and shop. "should you not take and shop today?" is literal translation.
21:47:04 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, also, "handla" == "act" as well as "shop"
21:47:38 <psygnisfive> the only thing thats relevant, anmaster, is the categories. not the words.
21:48:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, meh then why don't you say "the adjective noun <whatever> adjective"
21:48:26 <AnMaster> instead of "the only thing thats relevant"
21:48:36 <AnMaster> I think words are highly relevant to languages
21:49:22 <ehird> The difference in all cases was small, and was due to the significantly smaller sized L2 cache on the processor cores, with each core able to access its own 256 kB of L2 cache. In contrast, the most recent Yorkfields have up to 12 MB of L2 cache. To help compensate, the Core i7 also has a new L3 cache of 8 MB, shared among all four cores, similar to AMD's "Barcelona" processors. This is due to the trend of games making use of more threads, and with hype
21:49:26 <ehird> r-threading (HT) the Core i7 can scale more than 4x faster, such as in cinebench tests.[25] However, more recent testing done on all clock rates of official hardware with final drivers and BIOS revisions show that Core i7 at the very least beats Yorkfield clock-for-clock, and in most cases exceeds it by an average of about 17%.
21:49:30 <ehird> that would explain some i7 bad reviews
21:51:55 <ehird> AnMaster: small L2, but the L3 makes up for it, is the impression I got
21:52:06 <AnMaster> ehird, L3 is way slower than L2 though
21:52:42 <Deewiant> No chance of doing anything with L3, might as well forget about it
21:52:48 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm still not convinced it's such a big deal; I kind of doubt Intel would release a high-end processor with shitty cache
21:52:49 <AnMaster> ehird, you are talking about maybe 100 cycles on a L2 cache miss but L3 hit
21:53:17 <ehird> Deewiant: I'll get a core 2 instead if it'll make you happy :-P
21:53:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you are trying to be sarcastic you are actually rather close to the truth instead
21:53:36 <Deewiant> ehird: It might, since your CPU won't be faster than mine then ;-)
21:53:37 <fizzie> "L3", it says, "is slow. Really slow. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly slow it is. I mean you may think it's a slow walk down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to L3. Listen ..." and so on.
21:53:45 <fizzie> To paraphrase the Guide a bit.
21:54:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Nehalem has memory access something like 20% faster it said
21:54:08 <ehird> So I guess that offsets the cache too
21:54:51 <ehird> 256KB L2 passes that threshold of such a ridiculously low number that they must have thought about it really hard :-P
21:55:41 <ehird> Every processor has its downsides, anyway
21:56:01 <ehird> The 3.2ghz speed should do a nice job of papering over a lot of inefficiencies, I imagine
21:56:18 <ehird> Deewiant: how much RAM?
21:56:32 <ehird> Deewiant: Darn, going for 6.
21:56:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Uh. Harddrive?
21:56:48 <fizzie> Ooh, 966/1482 AI tournamet matches done. It'll be ready soon. (I'm sure you all find this terribly interesting, but isn't this quite the e/n channel anyway?)
21:56:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> 256KB L2 passes that threshold of such a ridiculously low number that they must have thought about it really hard :-P <-- yes... "I think we can pull this off because no one would think we were that stupid without a damn good reason"
21:57:00 <Deewiant> ehird: Nothing fast, just a 'plain' 1.5 TB from Seagate
21:57:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Look I have *some* faith in companies :-P
21:57:21 <Deewiant> fizzie: Do you have any tentative statistics?
21:57:29 <ehird> Deewiant: 10K RPM IN YOUR FACE. Although that's only for the OS HD.
21:57:30 <AnMaster> ehird, "no one will notice if this division isn't correct anyway"
21:57:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: Just results: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ai-2009.txt
21:57:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I think we all learned from the FDIV bug.
21:57:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: My statistics-calculation script expects a full matrix of games. :p
21:57:47 <AnMaster> "well this way for user space to lock up the CPU would be nice"
21:57:53 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, I would've got an Intel X60 if it weren't for the fact that it would've doubled the price of the whole machine :-P
21:58:02 <AnMaster> "and since everyone use DOS or win95 anyway, no one will care"
21:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it was f00f bug
21:58:52 <ehird> 21:57 AnMaster: ehird, "no one will notice if this division isn't correct anyway"
21:58:58 <ehird> Deewiant: Time to compete on minor aspects.
21:58:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: I'm amused by the number of crashes
21:59:03 <ehird> Deewiant: WHAT WATTAGE IS YOUR POWER SUPPLY
21:59:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant the other one
21:59:12 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc something like LOCK CMPXCHG %rax,%rax
21:59:18 <ehird> Deewiant: FUCK YOU, 800 :-(
21:59:27 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW FAST IS YOUR DVDRW
21:59:37 <ehird> Deewiant: OKAY, BITCH
21:59:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: One rather new innovation was to give (with the "normalized score" that's at the bottom of that results listing) also the min- and max-scores that are still possible (by losing/winning all the remaining games).
21:59:56 <Deewiant> ehird: IT DOESN'T SAY IT ON THE FRONT, I'M GOING TO HAVE A LOOK AT LSPCI
22:00:03 <ehird> fizzie: HE IS BUSY ARGUING WITH ME
22:00:06 <ehird> fizzie: PLEASE DO NOT DISTURB
22:00:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, I think there's a bit more crashes than last year.
22:00:14 <fizzie> ehird: SORRY TO BE DISTURBINK
22:00:37 <Deewiant> ehird: FFS I DON'T KNOW, ALL I REMEMBER IS THAT IT'S A NEC ND3520A
22:00:50 <ehird> Deewiant: IT WAS PROBABLY NOT SLOWER THAN 22X SO FUCK THAT
22:00:52 <Deewiant> ehird: You probably win on that count since it's old, doesn't read DLs for instance
22:01:01 <ehird> Deewiant: YOU FORGOT CAPS
22:01:09 <ehird> Deewiant: OKAY, HOW BIG IS YOUR MONITOR?!?!?
22:01:12 <Deewiant> ehird: Caps only when I'm winning
22:01:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: That "boar" bot there which has crashed all games has a "move()" method that has the form "do(); stuff(); and(); stuff(); /* something(); */ return null;"
22:01:22 <ehird> Deewiant: HA! I AM GOING FOR 28-30
22:01:27 <ehird> MY PENIS^WMONITOR IS LARGER
22:01:46 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW MANY ALL COPPER HARD DRIVE ENCLOSURES HAVE YOU GOT
22:01:48 <Deewiant> ehird: BUT IS IT TN, S-IPS, S-PVA, MVA, WAT
22:01:55 <fizzie> My monitor is 43 inches, if you just sum the two monitor diagonals together. :p
22:02:00 <ehird> Deewiant: IT'S BUTTACULAR
22:02:07 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW MANY FLOPPY DRIVES DO YOU HAVE?
22:02:10 <ehird> I HAVE 0. LOWER IS BETTER.
22:02:15 <ehird> DO YOU HAVE NEGATIVE FLOPPY DRIVES?
22:02:15 <AnMaster> ehird, ANY HARDWARE MIDIβ½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½
22:02:28 <ehird> AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW, JUST A BUILT IN SOUND CARD, WHY DO PEOPLE BUY NON-INTERNAL SOUND CARDS
22:02:32 <ehird> I DON'T GET IT MAN
22:02:34 <ehird> APART FROM LIKE AUDIO PEOPLE
22:02:37 <Deewiant> ehird: ANYWAY THIS MONITOR IS S-IPS SO IT BEATS ANY TN REGARDLESS OF SIZE
22:02:53 <ehird> Deewiant: WHAT DBA DOES YOUR POWER SUPPLY RUN AT
22:02:58 <fizzie> A friend bought a catweasel device: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Computers_Catweasel
22:03:04 <fizzie> Re floppy drives, that is.
22:03:05 <ehird> YOU DIDN'T BEAT M3
22:03:05 <Deewiant> ehird: I DON'T HAVE A MEASURING DEVICE
22:03:08 <AnMaster> ehird, FAIL!!! I HAVE HARDWARE MIDI ON MY SOUNDBLASTER LIVE PCI CARD!
22:03:22 <Deewiant> ehird: DOES YOUR GPU HAVE ONBOARD AUDIO??!1
22:03:34 <ehird> (TRY SHOUTING HM SOMETIME IT IS HARD)
22:03:43 <ehird> Deewiant: I DON'T KNOW IT'S A RADEON HD 4850 WHICH I THINK IS AN OKAY SORT OF CARD??
22:03:57 <ehird> Deewiant: DEFINE "SUX"
22:04:14 <ehird> Deewiant: ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS OR JUST TRYING TO ELEVATE YOUR OWN MACHINE'S STATUS
22:04:22 <fizzie> "The 4870 is like 20 units better!"
22:04:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: Whatever they're using in those numbers. Qubits, maybe.
22:04:47 <AnMaster> nvidia geforce 7600. low end yes
22:04:57 <ehird> Deewiant: in lowercase, is this serious serious?
22:05:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you really think so
22:05:12 <Deewiant> ehird: Nah, I think it's the next-best thing after 4870.
22:05:19 <fizzie> Well, the 7600 is something like over three thousand units better.
22:05:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's ati vs. geforce though
22:05:40 <ehird> WAIT YOUR HD IS .5 TERABYTES BIGGER THAN MY DATA ONE
22:05:43 <Deewiant> ehird: Checked a bit: 4870, 3870X2, 4850
22:05:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:05:51 <fizzie> AnMaster: "OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GT/PCI/SSE2" here.
22:05:55 <ehird> AND .2 TERABYTES BIGGER THAN MY COMBINED SIZE.
22:06:09 <Deewiant> ehird: MY COMPUTER IS .2 TERABYTES BETTER THAN YOURS
22:06:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: glxinfo, in the middle of the messy output.
22:06:25 <AnMaster> OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GS/AGP/SSE2
22:06:31 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW ODD IS YOUR MEMORY IN GIGABYTES? THE NUMERIC SENSE THAT IS
22:06:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah I have a low end mobo
22:06:49 <Deewiant> ehird: IT IS A POWER OF TWO, HENCE EVEN
22:06:59 <Asztal_> They pale in comparison to the 4870X2. :P
22:07:03 <oklopol> fizzie: what was the game?
22:07:08 <ehird> Deewiant: ODDER IS BETTER
22:07:12 <ehird> Asztal_: IF YOU PLAY CRYSIS MAYBE
22:07:16 <fizzie> oklopol: http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~svirpioj/hierarkia/
22:07:24 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW BLACK IS YOUR CASE
22:07:26 <Deewiant> Asztal_: Well, I can't think of an app where it'd actually matter, currently. :-P
22:07:27 <ehird> MINE IS VERY BLACK http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/p182.jpg
22:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, err... 3145728 bytes right
22:07:42 <Deewiant> Asztal_: Except 3DMark, but that doesn't count. :-P
22:07:42 <ehird> AnMaster: SCUSE ME?
22:07:42 <AnMaster> YOUR MEMORY IS 3145728 BYTES RIGHT
22:07:45 <Asztal_> Deewiant: it functions quite well as a heater :D
22:07:51 <ehird> Deewiant: SAME CASE? HOLY SHIET
22:07:54 <ehird> NOT SAME PEOPLE I ASSUME
22:08:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I SAID IN GIGABYTES
22:08:01 <Asztal_> (It's not mine, though, I have a 8800 GTS)
22:08:10 <Deewiant> ehird: DO YOU HAVE A CUSTOM-MODDED HEAT SINK ON YOUR GPU?
22:08:19 <AnMaster> ehird, IS YOUR RAM 3221225472 BYTES LARGE THEN. YES OR NO
22:08:19 <Deewiant> ehird: AS IN YOU HAD TO BREAK PARTS OFF IT TO MAKE IT FIT
22:08:32 <ehird> Deewiant: WELL, ENDPCNOISE.COM MAY HAVE HAD TO, IT'S THE FIRST ONE HERE http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20012.html ASK THEM
22:08:33 <Deewiant> ehird: AND IT CAME IN A SEPARATE BOX FROM A SEPARATE PERSON
22:08:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I SAID "IN GIGABYTES"
22:08:44 <AnMaster> AND IT IS BYTES THAT IS IMPORTANT
22:08:48 <Deewiant> ehird: THAT IS YOUR CPU NOT YOUR GPU
22:08:55 <ehird> Deewiant: OH I MISREAD
22:08:57 <Deewiant> ehird: YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT COMPUTERS
22:09:03 <oklopol> I HAVE COFFEE AND IT TASTES GOOD
22:09:05 <fizzie> My case is also black, but it's not as black: http://www.cclonline.com/resize-image.asp?image_id=3008&height=300&width=300&mode=box&bgcolor=ffffff
22:09:08 <ehird> AnMaster: ALSO, 6GB NOT 3GB
22:09:17 <ehird> Deewiant: WELL MY GPU IS SO AWESOME THAT IT'S PASSIVELY COOLED, BITCH
22:09:20 <oklopol> I ALSO FOUND OUT COFFEE IS A GREAT DOG REPELLANT
22:09:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, REALLY. PLEASE TELL US MORE
22:09:42 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/gigabyte_4850.jpg
22:09:46 <oklopol> WELL THERE'S PRETTY MUCH NO WAY TO GET A DOG TO LEAVE YOU ALONE USUALLY
22:09:46 <ehird> "MULTI CORE COOLING TECHNOLOGY"
22:09:48 <Deewiant> ehird: MY GPU HAS A CUSTOM HEAT SINK WITH TWO CUSTOM FANS ATTACHED WITH SOME WIRE: 1 + 2 = 3 WHICH IS GREATER THAN 0 SO I WIN
22:09:56 <oklopol> I MEAN IT'LL JUST COME SNOOPERING AGAIN IF YOU PUSH IT AWAY
22:09:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> Deewiant: WELL, ENDPCNOISE.COM MAY HAVE HAD TO, IT'S THE FIRST ONE HERE http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20012.html ASK THEM <-- what a joke
22:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: DEFINE "JOKE"
22:10:14 <oklopol> BUT, STICK THE COFFEE MUG UNDER ITS NOSIE FOR A WHILE, AND IT'S SLOWLY START BACKING AWAY
22:10:16 <ehird> AnMaster: IN WHICH SENSE?
22:10:20 <ehird> I DON'T GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING
22:10:24 <AnMaster> ehird, in an upright case that would be very heavy on the mobo
22:10:45 <ehird> I REVERT ONCE AGAIN TO THE "SMARTER PEOPLE THAN ME HAVE USED IT AND LIKED IT" ARGUMENT
22:10:51 <Deewiant> ehird: ALSO I HAVE THE NH-U12P SO WE ARE EVEN THERE; IN TOTAL I WIN BY 0.2 TERABYTES PLUS THREE
22:10:59 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW MUCH DID YOUR COMPUTER COST
22:11:04 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, but how do you handle the heavy unbalanced load
22:11:10 <ehird> AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW LOL
22:11:14 <ehird> Deewiant: IN REAL MONEY
22:11:29 <fizzie> MY C128 HAS A DUAL-CPU MOS-8502/ZILOG-Z80 ARCHITECTURE WITH A TURBO MODE OF 2 MEGAHERTZ AVAILABLE IF YOU DON'T MIND THE FACT THAT THE VIDEO CHIPSET DOESN'T RUN THAT FAST
22:11:45 <ehird> AnMaster: I ARREST YOU FOR NON-CAPSLOCK-COMPLIANCE
22:11:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I arrest you for overuse of capslock
22:12:02 <ehird> AnMaster: CRUISE CONTROL β COOL
22:12:06 <ehird> Deewiant: IN REAL MONEY
22:12:21 <fizzie> (I'll be mostly away now, all the shouting is giving me a headache.)
22:12:22 <AnMaster> ...has that got to do with computers
22:12:22 <Deewiant> ehird: 299 PLUS 244 PLUS 586.3 PLUS 385 PLUS SOMETHING LIKE 100 FOR THE WINCHESTER
22:12:25 <ehird> AnMaster: CAPS LOCK = CRUSE CONTROL FOR COOL
22:12:34 <ehird> Deewiant: WHAT CURRENCY IS THIS, EUROS?
22:12:40 <Deewiant> ehird: OF COURSE, YOU SAID REAL MONEY
22:13:08 <Deewiant> ehird: Including monitor, ofc.
22:13:19 <AnMaster> ehird, it makes you look stoopid.
22:13:32 <ehird> Deewiant: MINE IS LIKE Β£1500 MORE IN TOTAL BUT I'M HAVING LIKE A SWEET-ASS MONITOR AND STUFF AND ALSO PAYING A PREMIUM FOR MEGASILENCE
22:13:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "PLUS SOMETHING LIKE 100 FOR THE WINCHESTER"
22:13:41 <ehird> (DO NOT SAY ANYTHING LESS MY CONSUMERIST BONE IS INJURED)
22:13:59 <ehird> AnMaster: EVERY COMPUTER NEEDS ITS OWN GUN
22:14:34 <ehird> no it's a port of su(1) to windows
22:14:39 <Deewiant> I don't pay for Windows, what do you take me for ;-D
22:14:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well you used windows before
22:14:56 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW MANY OSES DID YOUR COMPUTER COME INSTALLED WITH (LOWER IS BETTER)
22:15:00 <ehird> AnMaster: YOU CAN OBTAIN SOFTWARE WITHOUT PAYING
22:15:04 <ehird> I BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT HE WAS IMPLYING
22:15:05 <ehird> Deewiant: DITTO BITCH
22:15:12 <Deewiant> ehird: OR NEGATIVE ONE ACTUALLY BECAUSE THE BIOS IS A BUGGY PIECE OF SHIT
22:15:17 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but that wouldn't be very legal
22:15:24 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW MANY TIMES IS IT INSULATED WITH THIS: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104470.html#acousti
22:15:28 <ehird> AnMaster: LOTS OF THINGS AREN'T
22:15:40 <ehird> I DON'T THINK MICROSOFT DESERVES MONEY FOR WINDOWS PER SE
22:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't pay for windows, and I don't use it
22:15:59 <ehird> AND YET WE ARE FORCED INTO ITS USE
22:16:03 <Deewiant> I think I've had enough of shouting for now.
22:16:04 <ehird> BY UNCARING SOFTWARE AND GAMES
22:16:13 <ehird> Deewiant: HOW CAN YOU FIFTH OF AN INSULATE SOMETHING
22:16:17 <AnMaster> ehird, err games, you don't need them
22:16:25 <ehird> AnMaster: SOME PEOPLE ENJOY THEM I HEAR
22:16:33 <AnMaster> ehird, sure but that is not same as "need"
22:16:36 <ehird> Deewiant: ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY IT'S INSULATED, BUT WITH SOMETHING ELSE
22:16:44 <ehird> AnMaster: YOU DON'T "NEED" A COMPUTER.
22:16:50 <Deewiant> ehird: It is insulated by the powers of my mind
22:16:51 <ehird> YOU DON'T "NEED" MUCH AT ALL
22:16:57 <ehird> Deewiant: OOH SNEAKY
22:17:25 <AnMaster> ehird, my case is insulated, with metal. Built into the case even.
22:17:37 <ehird> Deewiant: I WOULD TOTALLY BEAT YOU BY NOT HAVING A CPU FAN BUT THE I7 MODELS DON'T HAVE THAT OPTION
22:17:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and... I have dust filters at the air intakes
22:17:57 <Deewiant> ehird: BTW, those tricool fans or whatever they're called are a bit loud IMHO, I've been thinking of replacing them with Noctuas
22:17:58 <ais523> what's with all the shouting?
22:18:06 <ehird> ais523: me and Deewiant having a computer pissing match
22:18:08 <Deewiant> TBH I'm not sure whether they or my GPU are making more noise
22:18:11 <ehird> caps lock is mandatory
22:18:18 <ehird> Deewiant: Yar, that's a shame
22:18:24 <ehird> Deewiant: Define a bit loud
22:18:24 <ais523> oh, in that case my computer is worse than yours, and I'm proud of it
22:18:28 <fizzie> psygnisfive: Sure. I probably should've done some of the language technology courses they have at our university (there's a language technology specification option, which has a pile of courses from the linguistics department of our neighbour university) to be more conversant about the topic, but couldn't fit them in my schedule. (Still not really here.)
22:18:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Loudest part of my computer or not
22:18:33 <ehird> AnMaster: no, because it'll be hot enough anyway
22:18:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Gee thanks
22:18:49 <ehird> Deewiant: that is worrying though.
22:18:58 <Deewiant> ehird: According to your standards probably eardrum-breaking
22:18:59 <psygnisfive> fizzie: i can give you some intros to the topic if you want.
22:19:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, the nopcnoise guys seem to be a lot more obsessed than I, so I'm wondering why they'd recommend a case with loud fans
22:19:31 <ais523> how did people get on with my Enigma level, by the way?
22:19:33 <Deewiant> ehird: Maybe it's just me then.
22:19:35 <ais523> or did nobody want to try?
22:19:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but I have a case fan to pull air through instead
22:19:48 <oklopol> ais523: i wanted, i just don't feel like i have the time
22:19:49 <ehird> AnMaster: so do I.
22:19:53 <ehird> Deewiant: There is an "extreme" version with a different case, I'll look at that
22:20:02 <oklopol> of course, i would've had.
22:20:05 <Deewiant> ehird: You can always just remove the fans :-P
22:20:10 <ais523> it's not a very oklopoly level anyway
22:20:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Would that cause any problems?
22:20:27 <ehird> (If not, whtf are they in...)
22:20:30 <oklopol> but i have less and less time for it as time goes by
22:20:48 <oklopol> ais523: explain a bit, i don't have enigma
22:20:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, your stuff will be hotter. Whether it's problematic or not depends on your stuff.
22:21:04 <oklopol> (and i don't read the code)
22:21:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you could use water cooling of course.
22:21:15 <ehird> AnMaster: NO. FUCKING. WAY.
22:21:16 <ais523> oklopol: basically, you have a black and a white ball
22:21:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I understand you there :D
22:21:26 <ais523> and a few yinyang stones that need changing
22:21:31 <ais523> but it's obvious what happens to them
22:21:32 <Deewiant> I initially didn't have one of the fans in place since some stuff had to be moved around; when it was reattached my hard drives went down by 10 K
22:21:38 <ais523> however, you only have one yinyang item between the two balls
22:21:44 <Asztal_> My friend uses water cooling... it really just doesn't seem worth the effort.
22:21:48 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't think I have anything high-spec apart from the i7 965 3.2ghz and the fanless 1gb radeon hd 4850
22:21:54 <ais523> so you have to work out how to get it and the other items you need, like a magic wand over the right, back and forth
22:22:01 <ehird> Deewiant: Though, that acoustipak thing will probably make it a bit hotter in there.
22:22:40 <AnMaster> I suggested that several times
22:22:45 <ehird> It's not an option
22:22:47 <ehird> This house is tiny, no space
22:22:56 <ehird> Heck, my desk can't be much longer than 80cm
22:23:02 <ehird> Or I couldn't move around in my room
22:23:06 <ehird> Since it'd block a pathway
22:23:07 <AnMaster> ehird, put it in your parents bedroom (disconnect reset button first)
22:23:31 <ehird> Anyway, I'd like to get as powerful as possible while being basically silent.
22:23:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you could go non-x86, those are pretty powerful iirc
22:24:06 <ehird> I don't consider something that doesn' twork with other stuff powerful
22:24:07 <AnMaster> not sure about noise level of the last sun work station
22:24:14 <ehird> Deewiant: Kid. :-P
22:24:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Aren't Suns generally loud as fuck
22:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, wait for a while and use laberre or whatever the name was for that hyped intel thingy for gpu
22:25:14 <ehird> I don't see myself needing magic gpu powah any time soon
22:25:20 <ehird> I'm not that parallel of a guy.
22:27:18 <ehird> Darn, apparently the i7s tend to lead to more noise.
22:27:24 <ehird> Why does compromise exist
22:28:57 <AnMaster> well I can understand they are noisy
22:29:06 <AnMaster> ehird, go test the computer in the shop before buying
22:29:14 <ehird> There is no "shop".
22:29:25 <ehird> It's a custom-configured, built-to-ship PC bought from an internet-only company.
22:29:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, that is why I tend to avoid shopping over internet
22:29:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I couldn't get exactly what I want anywhere else
22:30:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well, how will you solve this if you need a laptop...
22:30:35 <oklopol> internet shopping is pretty stupid, i want things *now*, not in a week
22:30:41 <AnMaster> ehird, harder with custom components
22:31:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, I want to see that they work like I want before I buy, as in test it to see noise level or such
22:31:36 <oklopol> i don't, i just take a cute one.
22:31:49 <AnMaster> Swedish proverb: "kΓΆp inte grisen i sΓ€cken" (do not buy the pig in the sack). I don't know what the English equivalent would be.
22:32:43 <oklopol> well know quite a lot of english in theory
22:33:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you mean "in a poke"
22:34:04 <oklopol> in english everything is everything.
22:34:18 <Deewiant> I do not 'mean' anything, I gave you the correct English equivalent of that proverb
22:34:30 <Deewiant> In this case, 'poke' means essentially a bag
22:34:41 <Deewiant> So it's the same thing, that's just the word used
22:35:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, never heard "poke" in that meaning before..
22:35:28 <Deewiant> FWIW I think it's archaic or very regional at the least
22:35:55 <Deewiant> I don't think I've ever witnessed its use outside that phrase
22:37:26 <ehird> Deewiant: so, about those case fans -- would you recommend taking them out?
22:37:28 <ehird> I guess not since you haven't
22:37:46 <Deewiant> I prefer safety/longevity over complete silence
22:37:53 <Deewiant> Might as well use them since they're there
22:38:00 <ehird> Yeah, I'm not risking anything.
22:38:28 <Deewiant> What I should do some time is boot without the GPU and ponder the noise level
22:39:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Thing is, if I go with a core 2, the only fan left would be the PSU. But then I'm limited to a core 2 and 4GB of RAM.
22:39:44 <ehird> Deewiant: endpcnoise don't sell more than 4. I could buy 8 seperately. But then I am still limited to Core 2.
22:40:04 <Deewiant> Well, of course if you consider Core 2 a limitation :-P
22:40:26 <Deewiant> Well, maybe it is nowadays; I bought my machine in November
22:40:29 <ehird> Compared to an i7? Yes, I would
22:41:11 <Deewiant> ehird: I consider the i7 a limitation compared to BlueGene/L
22:41:11 <ehird> Please make an i7 machine with a fanless cooler and no case fans.
22:41:25 <ehird> Deewiant: The BlueGene/L is not in my price range.
22:42:33 <ehird> http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51642 β Gotta love how he asks if it'll be silent then lists 20 billion fans
22:43:54 <Deewiant> I'm going to sleep now, as I have to wake up in 6ish hours
22:44:43 <ehird> AnMaster: I manage fine with core 2 duo 2.2ghz with 2.5GB of ram
22:44:51 <ehird> But I'm upgrading, and I've set out to get a high end machin
22:44:54 <AnMaster> ehird, then why the need for 8 instead of 4
22:45:00 <ehird> In this context, 4GB is very small compared to the 6/8 I've looked at
22:45:10 <AnMaster> ehird, it will be low end in a few years anyway
22:45:20 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it'll be mid end in a few years, most likely.
22:45:33 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you define "few"
22:45:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant 3 or so
22:45:52 <ehird> In 5 years I'll be 18
22:45:56 <ehird> I can't really predict that far
22:46:02 <ehird> So it's not worth thinking about
22:46:25 <AnMaster> in 5 years I will be 24... oh dear
22:46:35 <ehird> It's a long time. Half a decade.
22:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, short in a cosmic perspective
22:46:55 <ehird> Everything's short in a cosmic perspective
22:47:28 <AnMaster> ehird, not really, "time until heat death" is not short
22:47:52 <Asztal_> it is compared to the time after heat death!
22:47:58 * ehird thinks about non-core-2-vs-i7 things
22:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, "current age of universe" isn't that small either
22:48:02 <ehird> Like, say, getting a decent 30" monitor.
22:48:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Sure it is, compared to time until heat death
22:48:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried a 30" once, I ended up using a single area near the middle of the screen
22:48:33 <AnMaster> really it is too large to be very useful
22:48:41 <AnMaster> only when editing images do you use the full area
22:48:47 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm on a 20" right now. It's stifling.
22:48:50 <ehird> I don't do virtual desktops
22:49:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I do that but I only use the first one
22:49:11 <AnMaster> well I have some rarely used windows on the second one
22:49:15 <ehird> Asztal_: The 20" is an iMac
22:49:18 <ehird> I'm not using an imac as a monitor
22:49:19 <AnMaster> Asztal, that is just as bad, I tried it too
22:49:23 <ehird> That's just sillydiculous
22:49:28 <ehird> AnMaster: My market is 26-30", really
22:49:35 <ehird> The main requirement is high DPI.
22:49:43 <ehird> Must not be lower than about 95, preferably 100+
22:50:05 <AnMaster> ehird, 26" may work, but trust me 30" is just way too big. Go try one in a shop if you want it. Because really it is a waste of money
22:50:19 <ehird> AnMaster: How many windows do you have open atm?
22:50:33 <ehird> I have 13 open, most of which are large browser windows.
22:50:42 <ehird> How many are large?
22:51:03 <ehird> Anyway, I'm leaning towards 26"
22:51:09 <ehird> Since that gives me high DPI
22:51:14 <ehird> And I'm also small
22:51:18 <AnMaster> and yes they overlap, since I don't use all at once
22:51:22 <ehird> Don't want to crane my neck
22:51:34 <ehird> AnMaster: is your monitor widescreen?
22:51:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I ended up with a hurting neck on that 30" and I'm tall and large
22:51:56 <AnMaster> I tried widescreen too, hate it
22:52:04 <ehird> Wow, 26" @ 1920x1200 is only 87DPI
22:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I might know what you need
22:52:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I need widescreen :-P
22:52:49 <ehird> Is it going to be monochrome or something silly like that
22:53:14 <ehird> Because I won't use it? :P
22:53:40 <ehird> "No, colour, iirc"
22:53:49 <ehird> 2048x1536 seems to be the perfect res for a 26" display
22:54:18 <ehird> Of course, you don't want too big a resolution
22:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the brand was NEC
22:54:23 <ehird> Or you can't see anything!
22:54:35 <ehird> AnMaster: What size/res, roughly?
22:55:01 <AnMaster> ehird, different sizes, from 17-40 iirc or s
22:55:08 <ehird> My current display is 105DPI
22:55:11 <ehird> Says http://members.ping.de/~sven/dpi.html
22:55:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Like 1000dpi or something?
22:55:28 <ehird> I'm not that crazy
22:55:53 <ehird> Wait, my current dpi is 99
22:56:23 <ehird> Why isn't there a good 26" display
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22:58:59 <ehird> This is all so complicated
22:59:14 <AnMaster> ehird, meh can't find it. But it was tall-screen rather than wide-screen iirc.
22:59:34 <ehird> I'm going to play widescreen video
22:59:38 <ehird> So it really is a must
22:59:41 <AnMaster> ehird, and it was insanely priced
22:59:58 <AnMaster> some 10 000 USD or something iirc
23:00:04 <ehird> I use bitmaps quite a lot
23:00:08 <ehird> So I don't want too high DPI
23:00:12 <ehird> 100 or so is just perfect for me
23:00:18 <AnMaster> ehird, except in the area where you render fonts
23:00:33 <ehird> AnMaster: 100DPI is completely sufficient for rendering fonts smoothl
23:01:01 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the resolution of your mouse?
23:01:24 <ehird> This is a shitty optical mouse
23:01:30 <ehird> I will buy a better one when I upgrade
23:01:49 <ehird> I'm an inaccurate pointer
23:01:52 <ehird> So that's useless to me
23:02:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well you have to scale the value in xorg.conf
23:02:24 <ehird> I never want to touch xorg.conf
23:02:49 <ais523> you don't normally have to touch any of the config files under Ubuntu
23:03:03 <ais523> how let-me-get-on-with-things
23:03:26 <ehird> So my current display is 100 dpi
23:03:30 <ehird> most 26"s are 87 dpi
23:05:11 <ehird> Ah, my old display was 86 d[o
23:05:15 <ehird> and I could see the pixels easily
23:05:22 <ehird> So definitely, regular 26"s won't do
23:05:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Recommend a good monitor company?
23:05:55 <ais523> System | Preferences | Screen Resolution seems to get better with each version of Ubuntu
23:06:12 <ais523> all it actually does is rewrite xorg.conf, but it's a lot easier than touching that
23:06:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I was happy with my old Samsung for many many years
23:06:29 <ehird> even better is autodetecting
23:06:32 <ais523> and System | Preferences | Mouse lets you set mouse speed pretty easily
23:06:36 <ais523> ehird: it does autodetect normally
23:06:41 <ehird> I have used ubuntu ais523
23:06:43 <ais523> but things like dual monitors you normally need to mess with it
23:06:43 <AnMaster> ehird, in the end it died of old age
23:07:09 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not neccessary
23:07:16 <ehird> it's bad UI, nothing more, nothing less
23:07:23 <ehird> as a user interface? no way!
23:07:30 <ais523> yep, and having it as an internal format makes it easy to back up, etc
23:07:39 <ais523> as a user interface, though, it has various problems
23:07:40 <AnMaster> why not use a, I don't know... registry or something
23:07:40 <ehird> you're an ubergeek who doesn't care about usability
23:07:48 <ais523> for instance, you have to keep resaving and so on every now and then to test your changes
23:07:54 <ehird> I don't _need_ usability
23:08:01 <ais523> whereas you just change an option in the Ubuntu GUIs and it starts working
23:08:04 <ehird> Because it's a smoother system
23:08:07 <ais523> for me, usability's just a way of doing other things faster
23:08:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I find a text config *MORE USABLE* than a confusing GUI
23:08:16 <ehird> AnMaster: That's why you need a non-confusing GUI
23:08:24 <ais523> AnMaster: confusing? Gnome are really insistent about keeping the GUI dumbed down a lot
23:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, show me one that isn't confusing
23:08:29 <ais523> KDE people laugh at them because of it
23:08:37 <ais523> AnMaster: anything that isn't KDE
23:08:39 <ehird> AnMaster: OS X's monitor gui, gnome's, ...
23:08:47 <ehird> KDE does really get it wrong in this respec
23:08:50 <ais523> KDE's confusingness is good in a way, but it's the GUI equivalent of a conffile
23:08:51 <AnMaster> ais523, KDE is less confusing than Gnome. At least the option is there
23:08:58 <AnMaster> with gnome you find there is no option
23:09:05 <ais523> well, the screensaver thing is silly, definitely
23:09:06 <ehird> THAT IS NOT WHAT CONFUSING MEANS
23:09:12 <ehird> ais523: 'screensaver thing'?
23:09:28 <AnMaster> ehird, "<AnMaster> with gnome you find there is no option <AnMaster> which is EVEN worse [than confusing]"
23:09:37 <AnMaster> now stop saying I don't know what confusing is
23:09:41 <ais523> ehird: Gnome has no option to configure screensavers
23:09:50 <AnMaster> and I want a powerful GUI which isn't confusing
23:09:51 <ehird> Ubuntu does, I think
23:09:56 <ais523> because the person in charge of commits in that part of Gnome has a personal vendetta against it
23:10:00 <ehird> Screensavers are stupid anyway
23:10:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember seeing an option in gnome for it ages ago.
23:10:29 <ehird> A far better alternative to screensavers is auto-standbying the displays
23:10:32 <ais523> and there's no screensaver-configure option on my Gnome atm
23:10:36 <ehird> All they serve as is annoying eyecandy
23:10:40 <ais523> ehird: well, my display auto-standbys
23:10:48 <ais523> my screensaver only displays if I lock the screen
23:11:00 <ais523> in which case, the eyecandy is helpful due to the circumstances in which I usually lock
23:11:02 <AnMaster> what about powerful non-confusing GUI
23:11:19 <ehird> AnMaster: you don't get it
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23:11:26 <AnMaster> exactly, because it doesn't exist
23:11:34 <ehird> that is not what i meant
23:11:38 <AnMaster> while xorg.conf is not confusing
23:11:47 <ais523> AnMaster: do you know what all the settings in it do?
23:11:54 <ehird> you really are unplugged from reality, AnMaster
23:11:58 <ais523> can you safely experiment with all the possible values?
23:12:02 <AnMaster> ais523, all I use yes. and I know where the docs are.
23:12:11 <ehird> Documentation is a flaw
23:12:21 <AnMaster> as for safe experimenting, I know which ones are bad to touch.
23:12:22 <ehird> Documentation is a sign that the interface was so unusable that they had to spend paragraphs creating a UI to the UI
23:12:23 <ais523> documentation is helpful, things that work without documentation are better
23:12:35 <AnMaster> ais523, docs are not confusing at least in this case.
23:12:35 <ehird> Documentation of an interface is grounds for immediate and utter failure
23:12:39 <ais523> is there an xorg.conf equivalent to visudo?
23:12:46 <ais523> ehird: I like documentation anyway
23:12:54 <ais523> personally, my perfect interface does everything I want obviously
23:13:05 <ehird> Documentation for non-UIs is fine
23:13:06 <ais523> but I don't mind if it has non-obvious power tools too which aren't needed but speed things up
23:13:09 <ais523> and those can be documented
23:13:10 <AnMaster> ais523, visudo just opens sudoers in a $EDITOR (set to nano for root) and check syntax when you close it
23:13:10 <ehird> Documentation for UIs is redundancy
23:13:25 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it copies it first
23:13:41 <ehird> http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=itbusiness&type=monitors&subtype=lcd&model_cd=LS24KIEEFV/EDC
23:13:45 <ehird> This seems like a good monitor
23:13:50 <ehird> *Contrast Ratio : DC 10000:1 (1000:1)
23:14:20 <ehird> AnMaster: The lowest response I've seen is 3ms
23:14:23 <AnMaster> also their side take ages to load
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23:14:51 <fizzie> The contrast-numbers and response-time-numbers have the marketing problem, it's all in how you measure it.
23:14:51 <AnMaster> but my old died and I needed a new one fast
23:14:57 <AnMaster> so I took the best I could get same day
23:15:04 <ehird> But 1000:1 in any conditions is great
23:15:26 <ehird> http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=itbusiness&type=monitors&subtype=lcd&model_cd=LS24EDBLB/EDC
23:15:28 <ehird> This also looks good
23:15:32 <ehird> No response time info though
23:15:39 <ehird> It seems to be for photographers and such
23:15:45 <ehird> So probably slow response time
23:16:19 <ehird> that's unreasonably high
23:16:37 <fizzie> I have here this reasonable LG L246WH (24" 1920x1200, I think it's pretty close to 94dpi) and the sideways-up Samsung Syncmaster 910T, which I think is particularly nice. I doubt I'd notice much response-time-related problems since I just keep IRC on this monitor.
23:16:43 <Asztal_> The other one was 12ms with some "MagicSpeed" supposedly making it 5ms, but I'd be wary.
23:17:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I used to have a samsung syncmaster 171B, it rocked, back when 17" was considered huge
23:17:06 <Asztal_> I have 16ms and 8ms displays, and it doesn't really bother me
23:17:15 <ehird> AnMaster: I used to have a 14" display @ 1024x768
23:17:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what about colour matching
23:17:19 <fizzie> I'd be wary of any official numbers; reviews from suitably obsessed people are usually the way to go.
23:17:30 <AnMaster> ehird, the syncmaster was pretty good at that
23:17:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't matter to me :-)
23:17:42 <ehird> I want good colours
23:17:45 <ehird> but I'm not obsessed
23:17:47 <ehird> I'm no photographer
23:17:48 <AnMaster> ehird, that's way more important than typography!
23:18:15 <ehird> fizzie: lg's site has no 246?
23:18:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Typography is more beautiful than any photo. :)
23:18:35 <fizzie> In the CRT days I had a syncmaster 959nf, which was the greatness. Chosen mostly because it had BNC connectors for input and supported sync-on-green for that, so it was easy to hook the sparcstation to it... but it was still great.
23:18:39 <AnMaster> ehird, a photo can say more than 1000 fonts
23:19:00 <ehird> AnMaster: A typographical piece can express more precisely than any photo.
23:19:01 <AnMaster> is that the English form of that idiom
23:19:15 <fizzie> ehird: http://uk.lge.com/products/model/detail/widescreen_l246wh.jhtml
23:19:32 <ehird> 2000:1 contrast, ey? Even if that's just bullshitting, that's some balls.
23:19:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ever heard of a shock text? Heard of shock photos. I think the photo clearly wins.
23:19:52 <fizzie> Well, didn't that Samsung say 10000:1. :p
23:19:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Text can be shocking for sure.
23:20:05 <ehird> fizzie: It then clarified, saying 1000:1 :D
23:20:21 <AnMaster> ehird, that is true. But it won't give as strong emotions.
23:20:24 <ehird> fizzie: That thing looks great
23:20:28 <ehird> I hope you don't mind if I buy it
23:20:36 <fizzie> As long as you don't steal this one.
23:20:43 <ehird> AnMaster: You can't make something as ugly as shock images with typography.
23:20:46 <ehird> That's an advantage.
23:21:24 <ehird> AnMaster: You just proved your own point wrong, then
23:21:26 * AnMaster forces ehird to use Arial instead of Helvetica for everything
23:21:39 <ehird> I saw a tshirt saying "Helvetica" in Arial and another in Comic Sans
23:21:42 <fizzie> One minor point I don't like with this L246WH is that it has just D-SUB+HDMI; most (well, at least many) include the whole D-SUB+DVI+HDMI triplet. I have this other older desktop box I occasionally boot, and now I've had to connect that with the VGA cable since there's only one digital input, and I don't really want to buy an HDMI switch-box just because.
23:21:42 <ehird> They were beautiful
23:22:28 <ehird> AnMaster: there was another in book antiqua which had a disclaimer saying the makers aren't responsible if you get beaten up for wearing it :-)
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23:22:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Can't find atm
23:23:55 <ehird> http://uk.lge.com/products/model/detail/widescreen_w2452t.jhtml This looks nice too, I dunno what that DFC contrast-fucking is though
23:24:48 <ehird> fizzie: any complaints about the l246wh?
23:25:30 <fizzie> Just the one I said up there about connectors. Well, and the control buttons aren't the best I've seen, but it's not really very often I touch 'em.
23:25:51 <ehird> fizzie: oh, no DVI?
23:25:56 <ehird> Dunno if the box I'm getting has hdmi
23:26:05 <fizzie> Well, it comes with a DVI-HDMI cable, I think.
23:26:22 <fizzie> At least I don't recall getting one separately.
23:26:29 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20010.html Nothing hdmi-y here.
23:27:12 <ehird> nothing about dvi either
23:27:36 <ehird> "However, the audio and remote-control features of HDMI will not be available"
23:27:53 <ehird> fizzie: What are unnice about the buttonies?
23:28:03 <AnMaster> according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg my monitor is SXGA+
23:28:38 <fizzie> They are on the underside of the monitor border, it just feels a bit unnatural. Very non-intrusive too, of course.
23:29:36 <AnMaster> ehird, where are the buttons on mac monitors?
23:29:42 <fizzie> I pretty much picked this one because the previous monitor was also a LG (L2000C, a 20" 1600x1200 4:3 one). And I actually liked the Samsung 20" I *ordered* (rather similar specs, except it had composite/s-video inputs too) but the first two had dead pixels, and by the time the store had managed to process the return of the second one (the whole process took *months*) Samsung had stopped manufacturing that model, so I just switched to a close equivalent.
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23:30:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Apple logo, go to the left, flip over to the back
23:30:14 <ehird> Your power button's there
23:30:17 <ehird> There are no other buttons
23:30:48 <AnMaster> ehird, power button on the back-side?
23:30:56 <ehird> Right. How often do you press it? :P
23:31:14 <AnMaster> ehird, which imac model is this? screen on ball or?
23:31:51 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/IMac_transparency.png
23:31:52 <fizzie> If your display card will be that GV-R485MC-1GH ("Gigabyte Radeon HD 4850 1GB") it seems to be a 2*DVI card, but also include one DVI-to-HDMI adapter.
23:31:58 <ais523> why do macs need a separate on button?
23:32:01 <ehird> http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds-5/intel-imac-at-macworld.jpg
23:32:06 <ais523> they should ship from the factory on, and never turn off, just hibernate
23:32:08 <ehird> http://www.dean.clas.uconn.edu/csg/images/guidelines/intel_imac.jpg
23:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, is the height adjustable
23:32:20 <ehird> AnMaster: No, but you can tilt the display
23:32:27 <AnMaster> I need some books below my current monitor to get it high enough
23:32:27 <ehird> ais523: I would have no problem with that
23:32:39 <ehird> a power button is needed in emergency cases
23:32:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Heh I'm getting a height-adjustable desk just to get the monitor low enough
23:33:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well samsung had good foot, high and higher
23:33:18 <ehird> If you ever see me in person you probably won't notice I'm there until you look down
23:33:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well you will have to look up quite a bit
23:33:34 <ehird> ais523: didn't we go over this yesterday
23:33:42 <AnMaster> ais523, 187 or 188 cm, forgot which
23:34:11 <AnMaster> tallest in family too, about 3 cm taller than dad and 5 cm taller than mom
23:34:20 <ehird> he's talking about me... isn;'t he
23:34:29 <fizzie> I seem to recall that my performa 52xx powermac (a *really* messed up piece of hardware -- #1 in the top-12 worst macs list -- just see the short intro at http://lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml or something) still had a power button in the ADB keyboard.
23:34:31 <AnMaster> ehird, he didn't direct the question at any nick
23:34:56 <ehird> 16:20:07 <ehird> Γ’β Β I am 146cm = 4 feet 9 inches. And 32kg.
23:35:00 <ehird> ais523: there you go
23:35:27 <ais523> ehird: wow, that is short
23:35:30 <AnMaster> ehird, what's up with that random garbage
23:35:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://lowendmac.com/ppc/performa-5200.html has a tiny picture.
23:35:36 <ais523> whereas AnMaster's about 8 feet tall, from what I hear
23:35:39 <ehird> AnMaster: clog's mangling of β
23:35:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know. I'm using metric.
23:35:54 <ehird> ais523: 8 feet? Err... isn't that like, tallest man in the world scale?
23:36:01 <ehird> 188 centimeters = 6.167979 feet
23:36:02 <AnMaster> ais523, and around 82 or 83 kg iirc
23:36:09 <ais523> ehird: almost certainly above tallest man in the world scale
23:36:09 <ehird> But yes, wow, I am short.
23:36:21 <ais523> AnMaster: 1 metre = 39 inches, you can work it out from there
23:36:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, my dad had a 5600 iirc, looked almost the same
23:36:50 <ehird> Like I said, first words of two longtime internetfriends I met in August: "You're shorter than I expected."
23:37:15 <lament> "Oh yeah? Well you're stupider than I expected!"
23:37:22 <AnMaster> fizzie I don't remember exact model
23:37:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't remember the exact model, I don't think it was 5200 but some 52?0 instead. I don't have it any more, sold it to someone to save space. :p
23:37:32 <ehird> No I was too busy being shy for the first 15 minutes :P
23:38:33 <ehird> Seeing friends IRL.
23:38:36 <ehird> Gosh, how fucked up.
23:38:53 <ehird> It's well known that 90% of people on the internet are pedophiles.
23:39:01 <ehird> The other 10% are ephebophiles.
23:39:36 <ais523> I prefer the standard backronym for the alt hierarchy on usenet
23:39:45 <ais523> it's apparently full of anarchists, lunatics, and terrorists
23:39:56 <ais523> I think I classify myself as a lunatic, in that classification
23:40:10 <ais523> but I think that classification generalises to the whole internet
23:40:22 <ehird> AnMaster: so, care to clarify?
23:41:12 <AnMaster> I'd go for same category as ais523
23:41:25 <ehird> i meant the previous stuff
23:41:48 <ehird> 23:38 AnMaster: that's fucked up
23:42:13 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, you don't know how the person would be IRL
23:42:25 <ehird> I've known them very well since 2006.
23:42:35 <AnMaster> knowing you are so small I wouldn't be scared meeting you IRL but even so...
23:43:28 <ehird> If they're secretly murder-rapists, they did a very successful job of creating a fake online identity stretching back years and gaining so many connections and meeting with others I knew. I'm flattered they'd go to so much effort to kill me.
23:44:20 <AnMaster> well indeed, you aren't important enough
23:44:46 <ehird> Clearly our meeting was just furthering their plan to abduct and murder the helpless child known as Barack Obama.
23:45:50 <Sgeo_> I've met up with people I barely knew in RL.. although I had a major crush on her 7 years ago
23:46:00 <AnMaster> ehird, that's a bit too late now
23:46:12 <ehird> AnMaster: THEY ARE TOO DEDICATED TO LET AGE GET IN THE WAY
23:46:36 <Asztal_> I've met up with internet friends. Except one of them did actually like young girls. And got jailed for it. :|
23:46:43 <AnMaster> ehird, no it's because you are wrong. They are out to get Obama's grand child
23:46:46 <ehird> Asztal_++ would read again
23:47:08 <ehird> AnMaster: They will convince it to meet them while it's still in the womb.
23:47:12 <ehird> Then abduct and kill it.
23:47:15 <ehird> Without it leaving the womb.
23:47:21 <ehird> They are *incredibly* crafty.
23:48:28 <oklopol> <ais523> they should ship from the factory on, and never turn off, just hibernate <<< or be on when plugged in
23:48:46 <ais523> well, in practice you need a way to turn it on if the battery runs out
23:48:46 <fizzie> Meeting you people could be a horrible disappointment, in that it might actually turn out that you are all just sort-of regularly human and so on. Although I guess that has a rather low probability in at least oklopol's case.
23:48:51 <ais523> in theory, just give it a perfect battery
23:49:16 <ehird> fizzie: these people turned out to be exactly the same as online :-P
23:49:34 <ehird> I did not anticipate chipping a tooth and losing my ticket, though.
23:49:54 <ehird> (I walked into the glass covering a museum display without realising it was there. *Bam*)
23:51:02 * ais523 reads up on the virus asie caught
23:51:11 <ais523> it's ridiculous, it's an actual virus rather than a worm
23:51:16 <ais523> and it infects all sorts of file formats
23:51:19 <ais523> including ASP and HTML
23:51:31 <ais523> AnMaster: from file to file, the same way other viruses do
23:51:33 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't
23:51:39 <ais523> if a file containing it is copied and run, then the copy spreads
23:51:51 <ais523> it's mostly spreading through illegal executables
23:51:51 <ehird> i should write a virus that installs ubuntu and makes it look vaguely like windows
23:51:57 <ehird> and renames apps to their windows equivalents
23:51:58 <fizzie> Ooh, a retrovirus! *punnity*
23:52:16 <ais523> ehird: don't, it would still be illegal
23:52:34 <ais523> besides, it would lead to even more GPL FUD
23:52:42 <ehird> ais523: I would just advertise it as computer speederupperer and put it all in the small print that nobody reads
23:52:55 <Sgeo_> And what happens when users discover that their Windows-only programs that don't work in WINE and have no Linux equivelent are missing?
23:52:59 <ais523> even so, it's debatable whether EULAs are enforcable
23:53:07 <oklopol> 8 feet tall is not tallest man in the world scale
23:53:10 <ehird> Sgeo_: That's their problem :P
23:53:15 <ais523> Sgeo_: people with those sort of programs normally don't catch viruses
23:53:17 <ehird> oklopol: what, feet?
23:53:20 <oklopol> tallest soldier finnish 259 iirc
23:53:52 <fizzie> oklopol: Is this about: "VΓ€inΓΆ Myllyrinne β Tallest Finn, standing 8'1" (247 cm). Myllyrinne was born in 1909 and died April 13, 1963." Or something else?
23:53:53 <ehird> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow
23:53:57 <ehird> tallest person evar
23:54:06 <Sgeo_> ais523, so using Active Worlds or Allegiance is a good indication of computer savviness?
23:54:13 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, and i see i misrememberized the number
23:54:19 <ais523> the only justification anyone's thought up for Virut is that it's designed to make Windows look bad to force up Mac and Linux sales
23:54:30 <ais523> Sgeo_: I've never heard of them
23:54:37 <ais523> do they work under Cedega or Crossover?
23:54:41 <Sgeo_> activeworlds.com freeallegiance.org
23:54:42 <oklopol> which is quite sad considering it's only like 10 years since i remembered pretty much the whole guinness world records 1993 book
23:54:46 <ais523> ehird: yep, maybe they're NOVELL SABOTEURS
23:54:53 <Sgeo_> ais523, I'd bet that Alleg doesn't work under Cedega, no clue about AW
23:55:06 <oklopol> of course i didn't actually know how to memorize back then, i just read it a lot.
23:55:28 <Sgeo_> ehird, you'd include a copy of MS Windows in a Windows destroying virus?
23:55:39 <ehird> i was talking about you
23:55:43 <ais523> Sgeo_: yes, so Microsoft end up suing all their customers for pirating windows
23:55:51 <ais523> that would be hilarious
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23:56:41 <ehird> "Security researcher Jack Louis, who had discovered several serious security flaws in TCP software was killed in a fire on the ides of March, dealing a blow to efforts to repair the problem."
23:56:53 <ehird> OR WAS IT A CONSPIRACY ? ??
23:57:03 <ais523> and most of the people on the article were just laughing at it, rather than mourning that someone died
23:57:28 <ais523> I went and moderated up the people who were telling people not to laugh at it
23:57:40 <ais523> because I was a Slashdot moderator a few minutes ago, although I'm not any more
23:57:41 <ehird> Some people want their death to be greeted with laughter
23:57:50 <ais523> Slashdot makes people moderators at random
23:57:52 <ais523> and it doesn't last very long
23:58:12 <Sgeo_> ehird, the Python guy, right?
23:58:23 <ais523> oklopol: what's the :D at?
23:58:24 <ehird> guido van rossum? :D
23:58:50 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsHk9WC7fnQ (NSFW language)
23:59:02 <ais523> oklopol: well, it doesn't work awfully, although it tends to lead to groupthink
00:00:09 <oklopol> i hate most group activities that have a purpose
00:00:10 <ais523> you're supposed to moderate things up if you agree to them, and reply if you disagree
00:00:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> "Security researcher Jack Louis, who had discovered several serious security flaws in TCP software was killed in a fire on the ides of March, dealing a blow to efforts to repair the problem." <-- link
00:00:15 <ehird> http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1192793&cid=27509683 funny; shouldn't be
00:00:15 <ais523> downmods are only used against trolls, in theory
00:00:23 <ehird> AnMaster: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/08/2010223
00:00:24 <ais523> in practice people downmod things they disagree with anyway
00:04:19 <AnMaster> so is this fixed in linux yet?
00:04:35 <AnMaster> and the details are not released?
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00:08:14 <AnMaster> ehird, once linux fixes it it will be released in practise though...
00:13:02 <oklopol> fizzie: okay hierarchy looks quite interesting
00:13:35 <oklopol> the "a bit like chess" thing seems a bit far-fetched tho
00:14:01 <oklopol> i mean except for the fact the "pawns" can move twice on first turn :P
00:14:12 <oklopol> i guess that's kinda significant tho
00:16:09 <Sgeo_> oklopol, link to this game?
00:16:26 <oklopol> http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~svirpioj/hierarkia/rules_en.html
00:16:48 <oklopol> kinda bad english, hard to read imo
00:25:53 <oklopol> fizzie: that sounds like a very un-AI-zable game
00:27:11 <oklopol> of course i don't really know how games would go, so i can only guess
01:05:04 <Sgeo_> http://hof.povray.org/
01:07:37 <Sgeo_> psygnisf_, there are beautiful images
01:08:14 <psygnisf_> Sgeo_: very true. have you seen cgsociety's forums?
01:08:23 <psygnisf_> http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=121
01:08:25 <Sgeo_> psygnisf_, no I haven't
01:08:44 <psygnisf_> http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=137
01:09:22 <Sgeo_> Not enough outdoorsy or smooth stuff in the 3d stuff
01:10:25 <Sgeo_> Although I found a nice NSFW image >.>
01:11:31 <Sgeo_> And another that looks like a photo
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01:13:11 <psygnisf_> that utilizes some theory of grammar and semantics, plus maybe even pragmatics.
01:14:47 <oklopol> well umm i've always wanted to try that, sure
01:15:06 <psygnisf_> i guess ill have to teach you some linguistics then :p
01:15:14 <oklopol> but i don't really have that much free time, except for my idle time on irc, it's 3:24 and i'm reading electronics........................
01:16:16 <oklopol> and i only have like 4 exams in the summer.
01:17:59 <oklopol> easy leisurely exams i'm probably going to do standing on my head for shock value.,
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03:28:35 <zzo38> I have a idea, which is, making Magic: the Gathering cards based on esoteric programming.
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03:28:48 <zzo38> I have made cards with similar effects to SWAP command in CLC-INTERCAL
03:29:44 <zzo38> I have made a card that says "Swap the meaning of Flying and Trample."
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03:31:43 <zzo38> Can you do something like, to check with greater probability that a quantum state is not very close to a particular state, to multiply the state by something like [1,0;0,40000000] is that possible?
03:33:14 <zzo38> I will be awaiting answer to all these things, please.
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07:02:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, it's supposed to be a bit more difficult than chess, due to the larger branching factor.
07:02:35 <fizzie> Er, s/AnMaster/oklopol/
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07:23:41 <oerjan> <oklopol> yeah oerjan is really mean always laughing at people's idiocy.
07:23:48 <oerjan> bwahaha what a stupid idea
07:27:36 <oerjan> <ais523> in practice people downmod things they disagree with anyway
07:28:16 <oerjan> i recall not too long ago reading a suggestion (or maybe it was actually applied somewhere) to have downmods lose a little bit of karma for the downmodder
07:28:31 <oerjan> so you would only do it when you really cared
07:29:06 <oerjan> well, and if your karma gets too low you cannot downmod at all
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07:29:51 <oerjan> i don't quite recall but by being upmodded by others presumably...
07:35:17 <oerjan> <zzo38> Can you do something like, to check with greater probability that a quantum state is not very close to a particular state, to multiply the state by something like [1,0;0,40000000] is that possible?
07:35:25 <oerjan> nope, that matrix is not unitary
07:36:37 <oerjan> all the things you can do with just 1 bit are more like rotations than like scalings, i think
07:39:48 <oerjan> unitary: all the row (equivalently, column) vectors in the matrix must have length 1 and be pairwise orthogonal
07:41:13 <oerjan> (as complex vectors, so you need to use conjugation in the scalar product)
07:41:52 <oerjan> <zzo38> I have made a card that says "Swap the meaning of Flying and Trample."
07:42:15 <oerjan> this could be the unholy child of Magic and Smetana/Smatiny...
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09:05:57 <oerjan> qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
09:08:25 <oklopol> wait, fn? is that from the New Edition?
09:09:40 <oklopol> well need to brΓΆsh my tΓΆth.
09:09:43 <oerjan> fhtagnfhtagnfhtagnfhtagnfhtagn
09:12:19 <oklopol> new song in my head: "glio the safety conservative"
09:12:28 <oklopol> i think it's from one of my dreams
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09:12:29 * oerjan swats psygnisfive. but not there. -----###
09:12:54 <psygnisfive> well i wouldnt want you to swap my anus anyway.
09:13:02 <oerjan> oklopol is clearly learning italian in his dreams.
09:13:30 <psygnisfive> while i, on the other hand, am learning italian on tuesdays and thursdays from 5:20p to 8:00p
09:14:08 <oklopol> err hmm kinda confusing dream, we were looking for some missing child, and when she was finally found, i was really disappointed 8|
09:14:27 <psygnisfive> thats because you were the person who kidnapped her.
09:14:29 <oerjan> yeah, those kids are so hard to get rid of
09:14:34 <oklopol> ...maybe i enjoyed the group effort
09:14:54 <psygnisfive> how horrible that we have such similar, sick ideas
09:14:58 <oklopol> yeah your answers are more probable
09:15:27 <psygnisfive> oklopol, didnt you once date a 13 year old or something like that?
09:15:31 <oklopol> that dude'll hit on anything that starts with an o
09:15:53 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yes; but when i was 11 dated an 11-year-old
09:16:18 <psygnisfive> yes but werent you like .. however old you are now minus a year or two when you were dating this 13 year old? :P
09:16:49 <oklopol> one of the 11-year-olds i dated when i was 11 had relationships with a 19-year-old and a 15-year-old, the latter kinda ended ours later on
09:17:27 <oklopol> psygnisfive: i don't remember that clearly
09:17:56 <psygnisfive> ehird, join me, my love! we can be free to express feelings for one another without the stares of police!
09:18:10 <oklopol> psygnisfive: no it's not legal, but you know she was a whore, who cares if it's mutual
09:18:41 <psygnisfive> surely paying a girl for sex is not "dating" in finland, is it?!
09:19:13 <oklopol> i meant you know whore like girl who likes giving.
09:20:29 <psygnisfive> she might even have been trying to enjoy the sex herself.
09:21:14 <oklopol> yeah, some things are definitely false
09:21:21 <oklopol> and no, there is such a thing.
09:24:22 <oklopol> psygnisfive: well yes of course she wanted to enjoy the sex, i basically just meant she liked sex, if you're an 11-year-old girl, that makes you a whore by some lesser definitions.
09:24:49 <psygnisfive> oklopol, if i travelled back in time, do you think i could get your 11 year old self to have sex with me?
09:25:06 <oklopol> i think i was very homophobic back then
09:25:36 <psygnisfive> given that homophobia is almost always repressed homosexual feelings.
09:25:48 <oklopol> no it's friends being homophobic
09:26:19 <oklopol> right, so i guess we were kind of a gay class.
09:26:36 <oklopol> think of all the wasted anal sex!
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09:27:08 <psygnisfive> oklopol: promise me youll make up for it with me some day
09:27:10 <psygnisfive> also: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1309
09:28:15 <oklopol> but anyway, that "homophobic means gay" is freudian bullshit that's bullshit
09:28:26 <oklopol> so it's grammatically sensible.
09:29:14 <psygnisfive> that homophobes tend to be aroused by gay porn more than non-homophobes!
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09:32:22 <oklopol> well that can be one motive, even the primary one
09:32:44 <oklopol> but i don't really believe in anything that reduces a human behavior in to one cause
09:33:35 <oklopol> psygnisfive: maybe when i get my master's, for phd stuff, if that works out
09:33:46 <psygnisfive> well, i might come to finland some time :o
09:34:40 <oklopol> shuuuuuuure i can tell you all about our generating grammars and stuff
09:38:22 <oklopol> <psygnisfive> i dont know if its freudian. <<< i use freudian synonymously to bullcrap
09:38:31 <oklopol> psygnisfive: earlier error
09:38:50 <psygnisfive> so lets drop the pretense and just start fucking.
09:39:02 <oklopol> i just have kinda multiple threads working on the talking
09:39:15 <oklopol> so corrections can come asynchronously occasionally
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09:53:08 <oklopol> okay now i beat the reversi ai in the endgame!
09:53:26 <psygnisfive> does that mean the world will end or something?! D:
09:53:35 <oklopol> (all my previous victories were killing it in its infancy, because the endgame is where it's good at)
09:53:37 <oerjan> this is bad. now it will get vengeful and... darnit psygnisfive
09:53:44 <oklopol> no it means i was lucky :<
09:53:51 <oklopol> it just made a very silly mistake.
09:56:33 <oklopol> blah now it beat my by one
09:57:22 * AnMaster wonders why this file include sys/time.h and sys/resource.h
09:57:24 <oklopol> the problem is i'm just too stupid for games, i'm not smart enough to actually think when playing
09:57:37 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell it doesn't need them. And I don't think it ever did
09:59:22 <oklopol> grrrrr i hate it, it always makes the same stupid mistake, and it's pretty much the only thing i can actually recognize as a mistake in that game
10:04:32 <oklopol> so umm turns out level 3's strategy is having almost no pieces on the board so that it can control my moves
10:05:16 * oklopol is suddenly reminded of the "it is generally recognized that humans are no match for computers in othello" mention in aima
10:06:53 <oklopol> i mean 2-player games where there is no absolute measure of success, i can do all kinds of puzzles quite well
10:07:30 <oklopol> my way to learn board games would probably be to learn more theory
10:08:29 <oklopol> that's how i learned puzzles, suddenly i realized a rigorous mathematical approach simply beats pretty much any puzzle you're going to find online
10:09:51 <oklopol> but for games all i can do is stare
10:10:04 <oklopol> i simply don't know how to think about my moves.
10:10:45 <oklopol> what the fuck is that thing
10:10:56 <oklopol> i mean a button that closes everything you have open
10:12:18 <AnMaster> some open one tab for each bookmark thing iirc
10:12:20 <oklopol> and because undo is not an os level feature, there's simply no way to reverse it
10:12:38 <AnMaster> or did it open the same page in all tabs
10:13:04 <oklopol> it opens two random tabs, one is bbc news, one is a getting started in mozilla page
10:13:07 <oklopol> both entirely useless to me
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10:13:32 <oklopol> well maybe set up by previous owner.
10:13:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, about closing tabs, undo exists as some addon in firefox
10:13:51 <AnMaster> or "tab mix plus" or "tabmix plus"
10:14:17 <oklopol> or i could just get a windows machine and use IE again
10:14:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, previous owner? Wouldn't you do a clean reinstall if you buy a computer second hand
10:14:24 <oklopol> usually i swap when i get annoyed with the other
10:14:38 <oklopol> AnMaster: no i had the previous owner do the installing for me
10:14:49 <oklopol> that's why i have ubuntu, you think i'd install an os
10:15:14 <oklopol> i'm not going to install anything that requires multiple clicks!
10:15:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, well what about disabling that button. iirc that is rather easy in firefox
10:15:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, just tell me where exactly it was, since there are several places like that iirc
10:15:59 <oklopol> just over the tabs, it's a whole bar
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10:16:12 <oklopol> you could probably just close it completely somewhere
10:16:22 <oklopol> if only i knew the basics of this canonical interface...
10:16:53 <oklopol> it was the bookmarks toolbar
10:17:03 <oklopol> maybe it does open all bookmarked stuff.
10:17:08 <oklopol> i just haven't bookmarked anything
10:17:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes it is what it does
10:17:24 <AnMaster> and those two are probably default bookmarks
10:17:39 <AnMaster> anyway you mean the right-click menu for the bookmarks toolbar
10:17:44 <oklopol> i hear some people read the news
10:17:54 <oklopol> and yep that's what imeant
10:17:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, I spent half an hour reading the news paper this morning
10:18:07 <oklopol> AnMaster: i know you read it a lot
10:18:44 <oklopol> tbh i nowadays occasionally read the paper when waiting for the pizza at the place, if i forget to bring my own reads with me
10:18:58 <oklopol> it's a good reminder of why i don't read one at home
10:19:17 <oklopol> i meant there's like one interesting piece of news per ten papers
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10:19:38 <oklopol> and even that is usually in the comics section.
10:19:44 <asie[Virus]> Found a special tool for destroying the abomination that's called Win32.Virut.
10:20:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, I found the definition of it, let me figure out how to disable it
10:20:07 <asie[Virus]> Safe Mode + reinstall - maybe, but not exactly sure
10:20:14 <oklopol> AnMaster: i did it already!
10:20:18 <asie[Virus]> clean reinstall - sure, but i have too much stuff to remove
10:20:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh? by removing that toolbar or?
10:20:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, I was talking about just removing that single menu entry
10:20:48 <oklopol> because i don't use toolbars
10:21:00 <oklopol> would that have required like a compile?
10:21:26 <oklopol> i guess i use some toolbars.
10:22:16 <oklopol> well i've been working on this one lang
10:22:39 <asie[Virus]> what is it called and what's the "thing" it has that other ones don't
10:22:44 <oklopol> but i'm trying to keep it in the dark until ready, so no, not really
10:23:15 <oklopol> well the basic idea is guessing the function body.
10:23:32 <oklopol> the real ideas are in how this is done efficiently
10:23:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, this wouldn't need recompile
10:24:07 <fizzie> There's also that "history/recently closed tabs" thing, I'm not really sure if it records tab closed by the "open all in tabs" misfeature.
10:24:09 <oklopol> asie[Virus]: and called clue, atm
10:24:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, since most of firefox is written in javascript
10:24:28 <fizzie> If it does, you can "undo" the operation by using the "open all in tabs" option found in that recently closed tabs -menu.
10:24:42 <asie[Virus]> So what, do you write the function but it guesses what does the function take via examples?
10:24:56 <AnMaster> <fizzie> There's also that "history/recently closed tabs" thing, I'm not really sure if it records tab closed by the "open all in tabs" misfeature. <-- that one closes existing ones or?
10:24:57 <oklopol> fizzie: what? repeat that, that's useful to me
10:25:09 <asie[Virus]> or do you type only arguments AND it creates the body based on examples
10:25:54 <oklopol> asie[Virus]: you don't write function bodies
10:26:16 <oklopol> you give examples of input-output pairs, and a simple set of functions to build the new function out of
10:26:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, fizzie: http://jsbi.blogspot.com/2007/10/how-to-configure-open-all-in-tabs-in.html <-- solution for closing existing tabs it seems
10:26:35 <oklopol> and it brute-forces the body.
10:26:46 <oklopol> fizzie: thanks you saved both my lives
10:27:36 <oklopol> asie[Virus]: yes, but as i said, the real ideas are in how the brute forcing is made at least remotely doable
10:27:48 <fizzie> oklopol: Good if it helped. Anyway, according to that AnMaster link it's rather easy (one about:config property change) to configure the bookmarks "open all in tabs" thing not to kill existing tabs.
10:27:54 <asie[Virus]> oklopol: Oh, but still, I'd like to test it
10:28:07 <oklopol> there are multiple kinds of examples, used for different purposes, to make sure you never need to do recursion into a function you don't know is correct.
10:28:38 <oklopol> i mean when guessing the function
10:28:44 <oklopol> asie[Virus]: i can dig up factorial for you
10:28:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, fizzie, as for how to completely remove it (disclaimer: this may be outdated, I haven't tried it, it may be easy to mess up): http://codingforums.com/showthread.php?t=132383
10:28:53 <oklopol> or just write it now, i changed syntax a bit
10:29:53 <oklopol> factorial . 0>1 : 4>24 :. 5>120 :: 11>39916800; factorial ~ mul dec
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10:30:39 <oklopol> . is used for deducing base cases, : and :. are used in deducing the cody, :: is used for checking correctness
10:31:26 <oklopol> idea is it can't ever just take the least common denominator of all examples, because you can give it large examples not even used in the guessing process, except to test the end results
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10:32:46 <oklopol> there are some issues for functions that don't have quite as straightforward a recursion pattern, but they are probably doable, i just don't know how yet
10:36:34 <asiekierka> I'm thinking of an esolang while I have too much time on my hands xD
10:38:32 <asiekierka> One of the ideas I got is: Normal 6-sided cubes, a number on each side, on a map. Each cell on the 2-D map is mapped to an instruction, and you can map them yourself. So the cubes start on all sides as 0's, and you can move them left, right, up or down. The source code is the instruction map followed by the amount of cubes and instructions for each cube
10:38:47 <asiekierka> Each cube has a separate IP, which can be modified by an instruction on the map to create loops
10:39:05 <asiekierka> It's a neat idea and I think possible to implement by me
10:39:31 <asiekierka> well, the map could be implemented as a PNG file
10:40:00 <asiekierka> So the source code would consist of: x maps and 1 "cube instruction file"
10:41:08 <asiekierka> while rotating it 2 times south and 2 times east
10:41:58 <asiekierka> The cubes change the side on the axis they're moving
10:42:07 <oklopol> you have like a map and tons of cubes on it, and all cubes have a simple program controlling them?
10:42:52 <asiekierka> but the cube controlling programs have only 5 commands:
10:43:03 <oklopol> so you have tons of really simple entities and you need to use the interaction to get actual computation?
10:43:07 <asiekierka> N - Move North, S - Move South, E - Move East, W - Move West, P - Pause
10:43:21 <asiekierka> oklopol: Yep, interaction with the map
10:43:48 <asiekierka> oklopol: There'll be an instruction to dec/inc the IP
10:44:13 <asiekierka> and a double-move instruction "The next move will be carried out twice, ignoring the first block hit"
10:44:31 <oklopol> i'd probably prefer it if you could just have you know [NNSS] to loop that piece forever
10:45:03 <asiekierka> but I'd like to actually keep both ways
10:45:06 <oklopol> no actually i like the actual programs looping
10:45:27 <asiekierka> And the simple programs loop from beginning to end
10:45:28 <oklopol> well do what you wish, but i love the general idea
10:45:37 <asiekierka> until they hit a block causing the cube to "die"
10:45:58 <asiekierka> and the program ends either if a halt block is hit or if there are no cubes left
10:46:02 <oklopol> also maybe there could be commands in the map language to fill an area with cubes of a kind and such
10:46:14 <oklopol> i mean i definitely want like tons of cubes
10:46:29 <asiekierka> oklopol: Well, you would need to have preloaded programs
10:46:39 <asiekierka> but you can have as many cubes as your memory allows
10:47:17 <asiekierka> and remember, each cube has 6 local variables and a cell memory of 10000 8-bit cells
10:47:40 <oklopol> okay good was worried there for a sec
10:47:40 <asiekierka> This is a pain when you step on a command that needs a parameter
10:48:20 <asiekierka> But still, I think this is an awesome idea
10:48:29 <asiekierka> sadly, i can't do it until my PC is clean
10:49:00 <asiekierka> but I promise there will be at least the 4 commands from deadfish
10:49:03 <oklopol> i like the rolling dice idea, assuming current top number is used as a param to whatever instruction is stepped on
10:49:08 <oklopol> it's like wheel done right
10:49:40 <asiekierka> inc by 1, inc by the dice variable, dec by 1, dec by dice variable, swap cell and current top number, add current top number to cell...
10:49:47 <asiekierka> This one requires a lot of commands to be done easy
10:50:40 <asiekierka> oklopol: Selected by another two commands
10:50:51 <oklopol> cubes have their own cell in the global memory?
10:51:39 <oklopol> well no matter, as long as they are simple commands
10:51:56 <oklopol> just remember to keep the cubes dumb :P
10:51:59 <asiekierka> inc, dec, add, sub, move ptr left, move ptr right, skip command if blah, etc...
10:52:31 <oklopol> i need to make coffee now, and think about hordes of rolling dice
10:52:44 <asiekierka> oklopol: You mean, keep them with only 5 commands, NSEW and Wait 1 cycle?
10:53:04 <asiekierka> cuz the map will have a bunch of simple instruction
10:53:14 <asiekierka> while cubes will have some simpler commands
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10:57:55 <oklopol> asiekierka: well point is it'd be cool if you actually had to use multiple cubes.
10:58:06 <oklopol> or that it actually was easier than just using one
10:58:15 <asiekierka> oklopol: Well, it IS easier if using more cubes
10:58:19 <oklopol> that's pretty hard to achieve ofc.
10:59:01 <oklopol> welllllll, just finish it and i can tell you whether i'd use just one cube for programs or multiple :|
10:59:11 <asiekierka> oklopol: One of the ways I could achieve this is that I only had 5 commands and different types of cubes
10:59:19 <asiekierka> For example, an addition/subtraction cube
10:59:27 <oklopol> i'm just saying usually it's easier to have you know an ip.
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11:00:13 <asiekierka> oklopol: I plan to make text output doing just that
11:00:39 <oklopol> i mean like a turtle, something the programmer can focus on, "so okay it moves here, then it does this, then..."
11:01:10 <asiekierka> Where it outputs the map status, positions of cubes and what they're doing and their variables
11:01:55 <asiekierka> but it'll be much more fun using multiple cubes if I had 3D output
11:02:35 <asiekierka> but I think newbies would use a single cube
11:02:37 <oklopol> it's easier than you think
11:03:27 <asiekierka> oklopol: I can implement the interpreter
11:03:43 <oklopol> i'm just saying the hard parts of 3d'ing aren't present in such a simulation
11:04:17 <asiekierka> But still, I will do text output, and I will put the source code
11:04:29 <asiekierka> so anyone interested can ask me and help me adding 3D output
11:04:33 <oklopol> err what's there to get about gl, it's a library
11:04:50 <oklopol> but sure i'm fine with text output
11:05:06 <asiekierka> oklopol: As in, it will output the current map look
11:06:49 <asiekierka> I probably will given that you implement Clue
11:07:02 <asiekierka> and wonder how will I write apps for it xD
11:07:22 <asiekierka> I only need to craft the instruction set
11:08:26 <oklopol> i will implement clue if i have time for that before i realize some horrible defect in the idea...
11:08:45 <oklopol> i've realized many, but always found my way around them
11:08:53 <oklopol> it's just quite a different paradigm
11:09:05 <oklopol> which is ofc something i always aspire to create
11:10:33 <oklopol> the same paradigm as befunge presumably, depending on how relevant multithreading ends up being
11:11:10 <asiekierka> Probably "not exactly needed but useful for optimization and just having more fun doing an app in it"
11:11:14 <oklopol> i've been thinking of a similar language, except no instructions, just millions of cubes using a simple set of rules to move around
11:11:45 <oklopol> asiekierka: so probably the funge paradigm
11:13:03 <oklopol> dunno, depends on how memory is done
11:13:59 <asiekierka> which can be added to by cubes falling into holes
11:14:01 <oklopol> finite state var per cube probably
11:15:31 <asiekierka> I will show you how a one-cube cat could look like
11:15:41 <oklopol> anyway i need to start reading my book, would've started earlier, but it seems i don't have to do my exercises for tomorrow either so i'm kinda on holiday atm
11:19:56 <asiekierka> but it's a general outline of a 1-cube Cat
11:21:51 <oklopol> the NNSSSNSNSNSSN line is the cube's code?
11:22:03 <oklopol> what are ones and fives? where's the cube?
11:22:30 <asiekierka> The width, The height, The map, The cube amount, The cube instructions
11:23:38 <asiekierka> A hello world could be some cubes inputting their code
11:23:52 <asiekierka> then pausing and moving appropiately to output Hello, World!
11:23:55 <oklopol> okay then that looks about right
11:24:40 <oklopol> i think cubes having code has interesting implications at least for simple programs
11:25:23 <asiekierka> But I need to make the instruction set
11:25:36 <asiekierka> except if you want to take on with the project and finish it yourself
11:28:02 <oklopol> probably not, i'm not *that* interested
11:28:54 <oklopol> i just don't get this part so can't really get dragged into the book
11:29:19 <oklopol> but, i'll close the monitor now, so umm see you in a few hours maybe
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12:05:09 <AnMaster> anyone know of any program (on linux) to find out what notes were played in a piece of music. Hm...
12:05:57 <AnMaster> I can kind of hear several of them by listening, and can even play it on the piano from that, except some that I get confused by.
12:06:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, was that an answer to my question or just random
12:06:33 <oklopol> but yeah notes can be pretty confusing
12:07:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, there are two instruments (some stringed instrument and some sort of "no such instrument" from a synth I think) playing in the music file and I'm interested in one of them,
12:08:10 <AnMaster> and it is the latter instrument (much louder) that I'm interested in finding the notes for
12:08:39 <oklopol> well i can try listening, not that i'm especially good at it
12:08:43 <AnMaster> and of course I know with midi
12:09:15 <asiekierka> AnMaster: That's next to impossible with a computer program
12:09:27 <oklopol> i'm leaving soon tho, if i can't look now, i'll look later
12:09:51 <AnMaster> since this is from an open source game I guess I could try to contact the original author or something... but that sounds like more work
12:10:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/sad.ogg?rev=30628
12:11:44 <oklopol> hmph, not opening it seems
12:12:11 <oklopol> i mean the actual sound is not coming out, i get on the page
12:12:19 <fizzie> There's a lot of algorithms for that, but I'm not sure if there are very many applications.
12:12:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, that is a download link for the ogg
12:12:38 <oklopol> AnMaster: yeah but firefox just opens it in the browser
12:12:39 <AnMaster> so yes you can download it I guess, just wget it
12:12:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, meh it works with mplayer http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/sad.ogg?rev=30628 on command line here
12:13:06 <oklopol> and there's "open with media player" in right-click menu, but that program doesn't really work
12:13:27 <oklopol> never tried wgetting, but okay let's try that
12:13:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, so no idea about any program at all
12:13:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, wget "http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/sad.ogg?rev=30628"
12:13:57 <AnMaster> file will be named sad.ogg?rev=30628
12:14:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, you could possibly abuse praat (that's in many package managers) but since it's really designed for speech processing, it'd be mostly manual pick-from-spectrogram stuff.
12:14:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, not in gentoo at least with that spelling
12:14:55 <fizzie> Well, it's in Debian. Anyway, it does not do "pick up notes", really.
12:15:27 <AnMaster> well I could pick from spectrogram I guess. If this app actually works well
12:16:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes I have parts of it already
12:16:29 <oklopol> 023...0...3...2.b.0.............023...0...3...5.2.0...............
12:16:42 <oklopol> wait a sec forgot the rest
12:16:58 <fizzie> I think I've seen at least one sampled-music-to-midi conversion application, but I think it probably didn't work very well. The easiest way would indeed have at least a bit music-oriented person do it.
12:17:12 <oklopol> 357...3...7...5.2.3.............357...3...7...5.2.3...............
12:17:21 <oklopol> AnMaster: notes are ba01234567 here
12:18:04 <AnMaster> I got A B C A C B G A as the start
12:18:49 <AnMaster> as for the timing I can figure out that myself much more easily
12:18:49 <oklopol> a change of 1 just means stepping one forward, in piano keys.
12:19:01 <oklopol> well you have the timing as well, unless i typoed dots
12:19:26 <oklopol> anyway i can't promise i can do the background melody, i'm not that good at listening
12:19:58 <AnMaster> lets see, I managed to get A B C A C B G A A B C A C D B A before I asked in here. Does that match... hm
12:20:02 <oklopol> it's somekinda weird instrument
12:20:25 <oklopol> the second part is just the first thing, one third up
12:20:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, then what after, lets see, I lost track of where I was in your line
12:20:48 <oklopol> but it's just repeating the first thing
12:21:29 <oklopol> btw we had much harder melodies as exercises at like 3rd grade
12:21:42 <fizzie> oklopol: Did it make you SAD, though? It is, after all, sad.ogg.
12:21:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, mhm, Swedish school system suck I guess.
12:22:05 <oklopol> fizzie: yes, sad that anyone would make suck a trivial piece
12:22:18 <oklopol> AnMaster: we were a special music class, lke
12:22:19 <fizzie> make: *** No rule to make target `suck'. Stop.
12:22:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, um I don't think our way to interpret first line match, since you are missing a -1 there?
12:23:08 <oklopol> AnMaster: i don't think there's any music "reverse-engineering" in most schools
12:23:26 <fizzie> There certainly wasn't music reverse-engineering in our school.
12:24:19 <oklopol> fizzie: that was pretty much the only thing i learned something from in elementary school
12:24:34 <oklopol> i mean the music stuff in general
12:24:49 <oklopol> problem is music is kind of a useless subject
12:25:14 <oklopol> i mean you can't use musical intuition for math.
12:25:54 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's in the correct place
12:25:59 <oklopol> so should be easy to find.
12:27:07 <AnMaster> <oklopol> 357...3...7...5.2.3.............357...3...7...5.2.3............... that would be CDE...C...E...D.B.C.............CDE...C...E...D.B.C............... right
12:31:57 <AnMaster> so rewritten as note names it end up as: ABC...A...C...B.G.A.............ABC...A...C...D.B.A...............CDE...C...E...D.B.C.............CDE...C...E...D.B.C............... indeed
12:32:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway if you want something more complex...
12:32:36 <AnMaster> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/vengeful.ogg?rev=29785
12:32:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, it should be a bit less simple ;P
12:32:54 <AnMaster> (no I don't want a list of notes in it)
12:33:41 * AnMaster notes that in general wesnoth has very good in-game music
12:34:02 <fizzie> Is it just me, or was the overall volume level a lot higher for this latter song?
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12:34:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, that's odd, I noticed that it is higher in ogg123 but not in older mplayer versions (seems to be higher in new mplayer versions too)
12:35:04 <AnMaster> which makes no sense as far as I understood the ogg format
12:35:31 <fizzie> It's "MPlayer 1.0rc2-4.3.2" they've installed here.
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12:36:12 <AnMaster> MPlayer 1.0rc1-4.1.1 (C) 2000-2006 MPlayer Team
12:36:25 <fizzie> The copyright note in this says "(C) 2000-2007".
12:36:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: that's kinda ambient, so yeah i can't say i remember it with one hearing
12:36:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, do you like it though?
12:37:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: I wonder if you get highlighted messages in a log or something. Anyway, about the amount of crashes in the tournament thing; it certainly is rather impressive: http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.4400/2009/results/
12:37:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, ok, depends on what type of music.
12:37:54 <oklopol> my longest pieces are like 20
12:38:15 <fizzie> "It stretches into distance like a 50-minute kraftwerk song", to quote one webcomic.
12:39:08 <AnMaster> well game music is a rather unusual genre really.
12:39:26 <AnMaster> close to certain types of film music.
12:40:59 * AnMaster doesn't usually like music with a lot of beat in it, the exception being film/game music where it fits the film or game.
12:41:50 <oklopol> fizzie: how did you score crashes?
12:41:58 <AnMaster> (easy to mix them up thanks to Swedish word film)
12:42:29 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 7,720,000 for "film music". (0.14 seconds) Results 1 - 10 of about 6,640,000 for "movie music". (0.13 seconds)
12:42:34 <oklopol> so don't worry about that.
12:42:45 <AnMaster> or is THAT the real Swedishism
12:45:16 <oklopol> i don't know what film of oil means
12:46:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think either http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/suspense.ogg?rev=32312 or http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/heroes_rite.ogg?rev=30993 should be even harder.
12:46:15 <AnMaster> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/siege_of_laurelmor.ogg?rev=34075 sounds hard too to me. But for different reasons
12:46:45 <fizzie> oklopol: As a win for the non-crashing opponent.
12:46:48 <oklopol> well i'm leaving now, so can't listen
12:47:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, that bot boar or whatever seemed pretty stuipd
12:47:39 <AnMaster> and didn't some of them test this at all?
12:55:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: The boar bot is the one I mentioned last night: <fizzie> Deewiant: That "boar" bot there which has crashed all games has a "move()" method that has the form "do(); stuff(); and(); stuff(); /* something(); */ return null;"
12:56:13 <fizzie> I did try to tell them to test it under the tournament system, with the memory limits and such in place, but I guess not everyone bothered.
12:56:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, mhm, would it have worked otherwise?
12:56:45 <fizzie> Not that one, but there are some who've been crashing with OutOfMemoryErrors.
12:57:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what about the boar one, didn't they test it at all?
12:57:32 <fizzie> One submission only had the .java sources, not compiled class files at all. My personal guess for that is that they've been developing with Eclipse, and when you run the GUI thing under Eclipse it actually uses the eclipse-compiled classes no matter what's in the .jar file.
12:57:49 <fizzie> I guess the boar people could've simply accidentally returned the wrong .jar. Or something. Or maybe they didn't test it.
12:58:36 <fizzie> Haven't even announced the results officially yet, waiting for the "unofficial" participants (random-move-bot and last year's top 5) to finish so I get some sort of comparisons there.
12:59:58 <fizzie> Anyway, the instructions say they should be writing a couple of lines about the bot's tournament results in the final reports (due in two-three weeks), I'm sure they'll tell me there what went wrong.
13:02:38 <fizzie> The boar-bot results did crash my statistics-page-generation script; there is a silly "efficiency" measure -- log(score/totalcpu), basically "how good results achieved per CPU seconds of computation", in log-scale -- which didn't like the score == totalcpu == 0 case.
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14:03:40 <AnMaster> everything else thinks the file is either unreadable or size 0
14:03:49 <AnMaster> meh, /proc on freebsd is strange
14:07:55 <fizzie> Alternatively /proc on Linux is strange; they're just different, I think. At least on this FreeBSD the /proc/<pid>/map file of a random process is readable with cat, but maybe that was some special process?
14:09:21 <fizzie> Actually it was /proc/curproc/map... the ones in pid-dirs seem a bit uncattable, although with "Operation not permitted".
14:09:41 <fizzie> Must go catch a bus again.
14:27:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, it was a python process
14:27:58 <AnMaster> that was eating 50% of the 6 GB RAM in the server
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14:33:54 <oerjan> <oklopol> my time is precious.
15:02:09 <ehird> 08:16 oklopol: one of the 11-year-olds i dated when i was 11 had relationships with a 19-year-old and a 15-year-old, the latter kinda ended ours later on
15:02:25 <ehird> i knew an idiotic 11 year old who simultaneously had a relationship with an 18 year old and a 19 year old, iirc
15:02:30 <ehird> well small values of "knew"
15:02:36 <ehird> more like "idly detested"
15:08:35 <Deewiant> fizzie: Heh, amusing results. And yes, I get highlighted messages in the awaylog.
15:09:37 <ehird> they seem slower than HDs?
15:10:10 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3531 - best article on the topic, ever. Read it.
15:11:16 <ehird> Deewiant: wanna give me a tl;dr summary while I read?
15:11:24 <ehird> Only it's kind of fucking hug
15:11:39 <oerjan> it hugs you and draws you into its maw
15:12:06 <oerjan> sorry, been reading about too many baby-eating aliens lately
15:12:18 <ehird> I got yall hooked on that story, Idid
15:12:47 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, it explains what SSDs are, why you want them, how they work, why most of the ones on the market are actually pretty crap, etc
15:13:05 <ehird> No Shit Sherlock(TM)
15:13:13 <ehird> I meant what is its essential results :-
15:13:47 <Deewiant> Intels rock but cost craploads, some of OCZ's new ones seem to be okay and aren't too expensive, all the rest suck
15:14:47 <ehird> Deewiant: All I want is a super-fast 1TB SSD for $3.
15:14:51 <ehird> That's not asking for much.
15:15:22 <oerjan> ehird: i'm sure only thing you need for that is a time machine
15:17:02 <ehird> Anyway, SSDs are really appealing to me atm as a silent replacement for the velociraptor
15:18:12 <Deewiant> Also much more expensive and less spacey
15:18:21 <ehird> oerjan: VelociRaptor. It's a 10K rpm drive.
15:18:42 <ehird> Deewiant: Expensive, yes, but a lot of things I'm doing for the silence is expensive. Less spacey, yep, that's irritating.
15:18:50 <oerjan> i was wondering if you were building onto my time machine joke
15:19:16 <Deewiant> ehird: Just get a 5.4K RPM drive if you want silence. :-P
15:19:30 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm also trying to get speed. :P
15:19:38 <ehird> Compromising is hard.
15:19:41 <ehird> Let's go shopping.
15:20:06 <oerjan> that would be in itself an awful compromise, since i hate shopping
15:20:19 <Deewiant> Well, put the two in priority order and use the lower one only to break ties :-P
15:20:49 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm ordering on the unordered tuple (power,silence).
15:20:54 <ehird> The ordering is decided at think-time.
15:21:10 <Deewiant> ehird: So think again until you get it the way I want you to get it.
15:21:36 <Deewiant> And then don't think about it again.
15:21:37 <oerjan> so if your thinking is confused you might end up comparing the power of one with the silence of the other?
15:23:20 <oerjan> you might order by silence^power, then you get a math pun out of it
15:24:20 <ehird> "SSDs have +5 armor immunity to random access latency (thatβs got to be the single most geeky-sounding thing Iβve ever written, and I use words like latency a lot)"
15:24:30 <oerjan> hm, this makes me wonder if evil = money^power
15:25:09 <ehird> so it follows that evil = money^2
15:25:17 <ehird> evil = money^power
15:25:25 <oerjan> um roots are not necessarily square roots
15:25:52 <oerjan> which was my thinking exactly
15:26:46 <ehird> It has to be said that I'm fucking crazy (I spent yesterday chasing up anything hinting at a fanless i7 cooler...)
15:27:54 <oerjan> i've read somewhere that liquid nitrogen is cheaper than beer, but the rest of the necessary equipment might be a bit more
15:28:14 <oerjan> (beer in the US, i think, which is probably pretty cheap)
15:28:22 <ehird> watercooling would work it's just that no fucking way man
15:28:36 <ehird> i'm a new member of the Huge Fucking Heatsink church
15:29:03 <oerjan> fucking is not generally considered a heatsink
15:30:45 * ehird lols at the hypothetical 20KB drive
15:38:29 <ehird> well, the erasing issue and degrading performance is sad. OTOH they are still faster than the raptors
15:38:39 <ehird> I'd go with the intel x25-e, I think
15:39:10 <ehird> only goes up to 64gb
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15:39:26 <ehird> well the -M would be fine too :P
15:43:07 <ehird> but srsly, $700 more than a 300gb velociraptor for a 150gb x25-m
15:43:15 <ehird> that's just redonkulous
15:44:50 <ehird> SSDs' form factor is nice though
15:45:02 <ehird> I hate pluralization
15:46:02 <Deewiant> Well, if it's 50x faster and 0.5x as big then 10x the price is a good deal? :-P
15:46:16 <ehird> "I told him Iβd need an average response time in the sub-1ms range and a max latency no worse than Intelβs 94ms. I didnβt think it would be possible. I was prepared for OCZ to hate me once more. He told me to give him a couple of days."
15:46:20 <ehird> this guy is a bastard, I love him
15:46:35 <ehird> Deewiant: i simply can't afford to pay that much for a drive :-P
15:48:38 <ehird> when will he quote the price
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15:52:20 <ehird> http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/thessdanthology_031809001858/18643.png
15:53:15 <oklopol> fizzie: what's wrong with the form do();stuff();and();stuff();? i mean i don't know what you mean by that form
15:56:44 <ehird> the vertex looks nice
15:57:50 <oklopol> <oerjan> <oklopol> my time is precious. ||| <oerjan> k <<< :D
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16:12:32 <ehird> http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A104175
16:25:37 <Deewiant> ehird: Your Velociraptor doesn't seem so fast after looking at graphs like that does it? :-P
16:25:52 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah but $s.
16:26:46 <Deewiant> The X25-M doesn't seem /that/ expensive actually
16:26:59 <Deewiant> The -E is, but the -M is almost purchaseable
16:27:11 <ehird> $700 more than a raptor, Deewiant.
16:28:00 <ehird> Deewiant: 80GB for all OSery?
16:28:51 <ehird> I can't imagine dualbooting and having a good collection of apps with 80gb
16:29:01 <Deewiant> I have a 50G partition on which Vista lives β it's using 34
16:29:11 <Deewiant> Linux also has a 50G partition, it's using 21
16:29:19 <Deewiant> (And has way more apps installed)
16:29:22 <ehird> Maybe I generate more shit than you
16:29:44 <Deewiant> My data partition is using 459G currently
16:29:47 <ehird> Deewiant: ask $PKG_MANAGER how many packages lunix has?
16:30:09 <Deewiant> Of which 308 are dependencies and 309 not
16:30:21 <ehird> I dunno, 80GB seems stifling.
16:30:47 <Deewiant> Like said I'm essentially working with 100 and I've got 35 to spare
16:31:32 <Deewiant> If you're worried, get two ;-P
16:32:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Two would be more expensive than a bigger one, I imagine...
16:32:27 <ehird> Anyway, I'd have to RAID them
16:32:34 <Deewiant> There are many here with differing prices
16:32:44 <ehird> How much is the vertex
16:32:48 <Deewiant> SSDSA2MH160G1 and SSDSA2MH160G1C5
16:33:13 <ehird> that's the only difference? ;)
16:33:14 <Deewiant> I wonder what that 2.5 mm brings :-P
16:33:20 <Deewiant> ehird: According to the shop's product pages, yes
16:33:26 <Deewiant> Of course they don't have much info
16:33:36 <Deewiant> Amusingly the height is even in bold
16:33:47 <Deewiant> Like it's the most important thing :-P
16:34:19 <ehird> So Β£372 real money
16:54:22 <ehird> doing other things
16:58:51 <AnMaster> just I needed him due to IFFI..
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17:24:32 <AnMaster> anyway someone tell ais when he is here next time that he need to pull from my darcs repo for ick since I had to change API of one of the functions he use in cfunge (IFFI should work with both old and new now)
17:24:51 <AnMaster> ("had to" as in part of code cleanup)
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17:35:06 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:35:42 <ais523> I've been getting C-INTERCAL running on clang
17:35:51 <AnMaster> ais523, pull from my darcs repo to get a fix
17:35:51 <ais523> AnMaster: what, again?
17:36:07 <ais523> that's the great thing about having a repo
17:36:09 <AnMaster> ais523, the new code checks cfunge api version and thus works on 0.4.0 and last
17:36:10 <ehird> somehow I don't think I'll get a totally fanless i7
17:36:16 <ehird> stupid intel and their stupid hot.
17:36:34 <AnMaster> ehird, AMD cpus are generally cooler, even the high end ones I hear
17:36:54 <ehird> AnMaster: the amd system meeting my requirements doesn't have the fanless cooler option but I could get my own cooler I guess
17:37:09 <Deewiant> ehird: Aren't you getting your own cooler anyway? :-P
17:37:24 <ehird> Deewiant: endpcnoise.com offers the ones I was considerng
17:37:37 <Deewiant> Oh, you're using some kinda prebuilt mess
17:37:46 <ais523> C-INTERCAL now builds on K&R C with unproto, and cross-compiles to ARM without trouble
17:37:46 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't it be simpler to get the components separate and build your own
17:37:51 <ehird> define 'mess', all of spcr's reviews are glowing
17:38:02 <ehird> AnMaster: no, endpcnoise gets it right apart from that
17:38:02 <ais523> it builds on both llvm-gcc and clang with a bit of build system fiddlery
17:38:09 <ehird> eg HD enclosure, acoustipak
17:38:32 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? So what about the wrong collect2 thingy
17:38:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I got around that different ways for the two builds
17:38:59 <ehird> I'm not sure about replacing the cooler myself anyway
17:39:05 <ehird> Me and thermal paste is a recipe for disaster
17:39:06 <ais523> on llvm-gcc I just added RANLIB=ranlib to the configure line, that builds two indexes for the .a files so that either native or llvm collect2 works
17:39:33 <AnMaster> ais523, um, but isn't the actual object file format different too
17:39:35 <ais523> on clang, I use CFLAGS=-emit-llvm LINK='llvm-ld -o $@'
17:40:06 <ais523> AnMaster: what do you mean by that?
17:40:23 <AnMaster> was thinking two things at once. heh
17:40:25 <ais523> that's the through-native build
17:40:32 <ais523> whereas clang is via-bytecode
17:40:37 <ais523> and builds to bytecode in the end
17:40:38 <AnMaster> ais523, also did you push your updated ick yet, since I pulled shortly before you joined, no new changes
17:40:52 <ais523> in the last couple of minuts
17:41:14 <ehird> I wonder if you can buy pre-watercooled sytsems
17:41:40 <AnMaster> ehird, no one would be insane enough to provide the warranty...
17:41:54 <ehird> the g5 mac pro was watercooled i think
17:41:57 <ehird> I guess apple are insane enough
17:42:36 <AnMaster> yeah I remember hearing about that
17:42:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think all G5 were, just some of the final models of it.
17:42:55 <ehird> it wasn't called a mac pro
17:42:59 <ehird> AnMaster: power mac g5
17:43:17 <ehird> 2004 June: 90 nm DP 1.8, DP 2.0 and DP 2.5 GHz replace all previous models. The 2.5 GHz model is notable as the first major PC with liquid cooling included as stock.
17:43:23 <ehird> so it went a year without watercooling
17:43:24 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant the model you can do more than just replace ram inside
17:43:31 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Mac_G5
17:43:40 <ehird> from its second year on it had watercooling
17:43:56 <AnMaster> ais523, btw you may need to update pull path for cfunge itself
17:44:22 <AnMaster> ais523, some days ago it changed to http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge/trunk (added trunk at end while reorganizing things)
17:44:29 <ais523> oh, the version I'm currently using is a release version, not dev
17:44:35 <ais523> and was downloaded via tarball
17:44:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well it should work too
17:46:11 <AnMaster> ais523, btw you may want to adjust IFFI a bit to take full advantage of the change.
17:46:40 <AnMaster> ais523, http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/head%3A/doc/API_CHANGES
17:47:47 <AnMaster> ais523, fungespace_load_string was just a thin wrapper that did strlen() and passed it on to the same code cfunge used internally in the last few releases
17:48:04 <ais523> oh, handling embedded NUL
17:48:18 <ais523> I may modify the compilation technique for Befunge, in that case
17:48:34 <AnMaster> ais523, well atm it does strlen() if the newer API version is detected.
17:48:44 <AnMaster> but yeah you might want to replace that.
17:49:17 <AnMaster> ais523, point is that the external API supports it now too.
17:50:40 <AnMaster> ais523, the ick side has issues with embedded 0-bytes?
17:50:49 <ehird> maybe i'll just not cool anything and be careful with load :-D
17:50:53 <Deewiant> ais523: Mycology has an embedded NUL :-)
17:51:13 <ehird> quiet and cheap though ;)
17:51:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and internally cfunge handled this for ages. Just the external code for IFFI didn't handle it
17:51:36 <ais523> AnMaster: not really, but it doesn't store any info on the true length of the string
17:51:50 <ais523> so there's no way to record whether it continues past the NUL or not
17:51:54 <ehird> http://bilder.wibla.net/albums/monster/DSC_1820.sized.jpg
17:51:57 <ehird> Wwwwwwwwwwwowwwwwwwwwwww.
17:52:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I suggest adding an embedded form feed, if you haven't already. I think it still breaks rc/funge, unless you contacted him about it or such.
17:52:30 <Slereah> What are you even going to do with 11TB?
17:52:43 <Slereah> I have like 1.3 and I still have plenty of space
17:53:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think it continues loading rest of program like if it was trefunge: incrementing z
17:53:30 <ehird> I'm just going to have 130gb+1TB, heh.
17:53:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I guess it's a good thing to test anyway
17:53:38 <Slereah> But then again, it's under 1000
17:53:45 <Slereah> So it might actually be 11.
17:54:10 <ehird> Slereah: Well, that's real-bytes.
17:54:16 <ehird> HDs use marketing-bytes.
17:54:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it certainly doesn't ignore it like newline is ignored in unefunge at least, nor does it store it literal into funge space and just continue loading.
17:54:34 <ais523> marketing uses metric kilobytes, not binary kibibytes
17:54:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is some test case included with cfunge for it btw
17:54:50 <ehird> "Silencing your scroll mouse."
17:55:01 <ehird> now that's just ridiculous
17:55:04 <ais523> I like it when I can hear my mouse and keyboard
17:55:14 <ehird> "Not because the silencing effect but because the feel the mouse gets That it gets more silent is just a bonus! "
17:55:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I had one ages ago that was very loud, but that was an old PS/2 logitech one
17:55:19 <ehird> well, okay, that's slightly less ridiculous
17:55:20 <ais523> otherwise it's less obvious whether I actually managed to press the button or not
17:55:27 <ehird> ais523: you'd like a model m/das keyboard
17:55:35 <ehird> BAM BAM BAM WORLD ENDING CLATTER NUCLEAR REACTION CRASH BANG
17:55:38 <ais523> the model m keyboards are world-famous as being the best ever
17:55:45 <ais523> although I've never seen one
17:55:47 <ehird> but I broke one of the arrow keys
17:55:50 <ehird> and the power supply fucked up
17:56:02 <AnMaster> ehird, the keyboard had a separate power supply?
17:56:39 <AnMaster> I thought keyboards used power from PS/2 (or for modern ones USB, which wouldn't be relevant in this case)
17:56:51 <ehird> ah, the mod makes the scrollwheel smooth
17:57:05 <ehird> I meant the ps2 cable
17:57:17 * AnMaster is typing on a PS/2 keyboard atm
17:57:35 <ehird> ais523: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/ModelM.jpg
17:57:36 <AnMaster> works like a charm, after many many years
17:57:50 <ehird> I'd give you a video but it's youtube
17:58:03 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoWXuVdlKZw&fmt=18 anyway
17:58:05 <AnMaster> ehird, used one once. Very nice feeling
17:58:13 <ehird> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUzReqjyNfQ&fmt=18 das keyboard)
17:58:19 <ais523> well, this keyboard is part of my laptop
17:58:21 <ehird> AnMaster: hard to type on
17:58:55 <ehird> weak fingers AnMaster
17:58:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoWXuVdlKZw&fmt=18 anyway <-- fast typer though
17:59:33 <AnMaster> ehird, did it even make sense or was it just random garbage on screen
17:59:41 <ehird> it looked like senseful typing
17:59:48 <ehird> it was meant as an example of real world typing too
17:59:48 <AnMaster> it was almost movie typing (see tv troupes)
17:59:53 <ehird> the guy says he's used a model m for 15 years, IIRC
18:00:08 <ais523> given that they're so famous, why did IBM stop making them?
18:00:33 <ehird> ais523: they weren't famous when they stopped
18:00:38 <ehird> also: expensive to make
18:00:41 <ehird> not everyone likes the loudness
18:00:49 <ehird> and they're VERY BIG
18:00:55 <AnMaster> I would like the feeling without the loudness
18:01:04 <ehird> a bit less feeling
18:01:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I mean, non-keys
18:01:10 <ehird> it has huge padding around it
18:01:21 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but that is not much of an issue
18:01:28 <ehird> too big for a desk
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18:01:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I would prefer a good hand rest
18:01:41 <ehird> I rest my hands on the desk :P
18:02:01 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-WdHYoHEDk&NR=1&fmt=18 β hthis is what a model m sounds like really
18:02:04 <ehird> the other ones are too loud
18:02:12 <ehird> the twangy sound sucks
18:02:45 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befAQ6BVNGM&NR=1&fmt=18
18:02:49 <Deewiant> I'm annoyed that pretty much all semi-good keyboards don't come in 105-key layouts :-/
18:03:31 * ehird browses cherry.com's range of keyboards
18:03:50 <Deewiant> Only in 104 or occasionally in 108
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18:04:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which is the 105 one
18:04:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which is the extra key
18:05:04 * AnMaster has whatever the normal Swedish full size keyboard layout is called
18:06:07 <Deewiant> 104 is http://www.cooltoyzph.com/image/US_Keyboard_layout.jpg
18:06:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about F-keys and so on
18:07:07 <AnMaster> aren't they counted as part of the layout
18:07:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then what about laptop keyboards with the fn thingy instead of numerical keyboard
18:07:35 <Deewiant> They're not over 100 keys now are they
18:07:47 <AnMaster> well I never heard them called 80-something
18:07:53 <ehird> Hello, world! I am typing to show how fast my typing is and this is important for me so that I can show how fast my typing is, actually I'm doing it to show the noise level of my keyboard but that's how it goes isn't it? Yes indeed it is and thusly I end this typing (can you tell I'm recording? I bet you can. Blah blah blah blah qwerty.) Fake error. Etc.
18:08:37 <AnMaster> ehird, was that was the person typed or what?
18:08:44 <ehird> It was what I was typing.
18:10:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Anyway, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/KB_Japanese.svg/800px-KB_Japanese.svg.png is 108-key
18:10:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what I really want is 105 but with separate Meta, Super, Alt an Ctrl keys on each side
18:11:17 <AnMaster> well one alt could be altgr I guess
18:11:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, some programs act as if meta and alt were same, and some programs act as if they were separate. emacs is an example of the former
18:12:28 <Deewiant> Be careful that you don't run out of room for a space bar :-P
18:12:56 <ais523> AnMaster: emacs knows the difference between meta and alt, but if you don't have a meta it maps alt to meta
18:13:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I would make up for it by not having any Fn. If laptops manage to fit it in...
18:13:36 <AnMaster> xmodmap didn't manage to do the trick in X for me, and of course it doesn't solve it outside X at all
18:14:44 <ais523> you can put control where capslock is
18:14:53 <ais523> I don't, but lots of AnMaster-attitude people do
18:15:11 <Deewiant> I put backspace where capslock is
18:15:18 <ais523> Deewiant: what do you put where backspace is?
18:15:20 <AnMaster> well I don't often use capslock so maybe
18:15:42 <ehird> ssd\sad\'a\s'\as\sad\'asd\asd\'a\sd'\as'da[]f;l[wlfpawfgkqfjeiorafgioafjlaf jklbfjlqwfjnkjtklqwrhjakwfhjklrjkrf krjlzfaklgdsjklg jdlkjhdltk;jnfkrj lafhdkr hlgdfkjlg fdjql gios;hgl j;l jfogjh o;s jgio;e jpgos;oi jrg;js;gj ;oj g;l lwk el; gj;klgj ar;ogj gkom ;ops ps0'gk eorkg [p'sjfg ag
18:15:44 <AnMaster> anyway how do you do this outside X
18:15:45 <ehird> Super fast typing.
18:16:16 <Deewiant> The stupid groove on the caps lock key annoys me very much, I might add
18:16:18 <AnMaster> or even inside X (so that it works)
18:16:22 <ehird> I have my model m lying around
18:16:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes, why does it have that
18:16:53 <ais523> PS/2 isn't hotpluggable safely
18:16:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Presumably since people were pressing caps lock accidentally... so instead of solving the problem they make the key harder to press
18:16:59 <ehird> http://www.dansdata.com/images/clicky2/ergo1280.jpg Ergoclick
18:17:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> PS/2 isn't hotpluggable safely <-- I know, it caused system resent when I tried it once
18:17:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what does that mean exactly
18:17:26 <ais523> AnMaster: you were lucky, in theory it can burn out the motherboard
18:17:29 <Deewiant> Where sec = 10 mins actually ->
18:17:42 <AnMaster> ais523, it was on an old computer
18:18:02 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: n-key rollover <-- what does that mean, any idea ais523
18:18:28 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_(key)
18:18:35 <ehird> Certain high-end keyboards have "n-key rollover". This means that each key is scanned completely independently by the keyboard hardware, so that each keypress is correctly detected regardless of how many other keys are being pressed or held down at the time. [3]
18:18:44 <ehird> yeah cuz i press 50 keys at once all the time
18:18:50 <AnMaster> well... you don't get that in PS/2
18:18:56 <ais523> well, I actually did some experiments on that a while back
18:18:59 <ehird> the most you need is 5 keys held at once
18:19:10 <ais523> most keyboards can distinguish either 2 or 3 keys at once, depending on which they are
18:19:11 <ehird> windows-menu-alt-control-shift-<key>
18:19:17 <ais523> and any number of modifier keys
18:19:22 <AnMaster> I have a PS/2 and it can't handle more than like 2 normal keys, and a few modifiers
18:19:50 <AnMaster> and it can't handle shift, up left
18:19:58 <AnMaster> which was needed in some game (forgot which)
18:20:17 <ehird> i love the idea of getting an expensive silent pc then using a model m
18:20:38 <fizzie> oklopol: The wrong part is that the function ends with a commented "more_stuff();" call and a fixed "return null;", while it should return the move the bot wants to make.
18:20:43 <AnMaster> ehird, that is a rather different noise, not a constant noise in the bg
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18:25:00 -!- ineiros has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
18:25:02 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.dansdata.com/images/clicky2/ergo1280.jpg Ergoclick <-- interesting. How does it work
18:25:13 <ehird> like any other ergonomic keyboard
18:25:31 <AnMaster> ehird, you take it apart in two parts?
18:26:13 <AnMaster> what is the round thing at the top
18:28:28 <fizzie> My hypervisor at work has this split-at-the-middle in-two-parts keyboard, and self-built plywood-or-something meter-long sticks-of-sorts taped into them, so that he can just keep his hands down on each side of his chair, and the keyboards are sort-of like ___/H\___ where H is the chair, ____ is the floor, / and \ are the keyboard halves with the sticks, and this picture is from the front (or behind) the chair.
18:28:31 <ehird> this model m is love
18:29:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You /need/ PS/2 for NKRO
18:30:14 <Deewiant> The USB protocol can only handle 6 keys at once, it's an arbitrary limitation
18:30:30 <Deewiant> So even if your keyboard can handle it your OS can't unless you write your own keyboard driver
18:30:35 -!- ineiros has joined.
18:31:49 <ehird> no ps 2 on this computer
18:31:49 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal").
18:31:51 <ehird> so I can't use my model m
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18:32:17 <ais523> what about through a PS/2 to USB adapter?
18:32:21 <ehird> pet peeve: no Windows key or equivalence
18:32:23 <ehird> ais523: don't have on
18:32:28 <ehird> and the computer shop is closed
18:32:48 * ehird bashes the model m excessively
18:33:44 <ehird> he was talking to me
18:34:50 <ehird> from rolling my hands like a maniac I conclude that the model m can support typing speeds up to 500wp
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18:37:56 * ehird records the keyboard-rapage
18:40:28 <ehird> aw shit i snapped a nail
18:44:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, keyboard on the side sounds crazy
18:45:12 <ehird> what, one keyboard piece at each side?
18:45:33 <ehird> AnMaster: citation:
18:45:41 <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/493388.html
18:45:48 <fizzie> I don't see how it wouldn't be ergonomic; certainly it's more natural to keep your hands on your sides than in front of you in a dog-begging-for-food pose.
18:46:37 <fizzie> The ones he uses aren't bolted on the chair, but other than that I guess the principle is rather similar.
18:46:37 <AnMaster> I thought you mean arms hanging straight down the sides and the keyboard in vertical position
18:47:34 * ehird wonders alterantives to ps2βusb conversion
18:48:57 <AnMaster> ais523, is serial cable safe to hot plug assuming device at other end is turned off? Just wondering
18:49:15 <AnMaster> (since I assume turning on the device later is safe, it wouldn't make sense if it wasn't
18:49:22 <ais523> in fact, it's safe to hot-plug even if the device is turned on
18:49:28 <ais523> RS232 is very tolerant to all sorts of things
18:49:52 <ais523> I don't know whether they're meant to work in theory, but IME they do in practice
18:50:25 <AnMaster> same, and it saved me a few times when some headless computer oopsed
18:50:45 <AnMaster> actually not oopsed last time, just silent death of anything network related
18:52:54 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/493388.html <-- that's a CRT at the top of the pic isn't it
19:03:10 <ehird> http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/seuss.html
19:04:00 * ais523 ponders the idea of C-INTERCAL as a kernel module
19:04:19 <ais523> so you can cat INTERCAL programs to /proc/compile-intercal, and read the equivalent C back from it
19:04:44 <AnMaster> ais523, does darcs have issue with moving one file and then adding a different file with the same name as the old name of the first file being done in a single commit?
19:04:59 <ais523> AnMaster: use darcs mv to move the one file
19:05:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean both being done in one commit
19:05:14 <ais523> darcs has no trouble with that
19:05:17 <ais523> as long as you told it about the move
19:05:26 <AnMaster> like darcs mv a b; touch a; darcs add a
19:05:32 <ais523> yep, that should be fine
19:05:43 <AnMaster> ais523, right, svn seems to get confused by it
19:06:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well I did it recently in bzr with no issues either for bzr or me
19:06:18 -!- Alicce has joined.
19:07:28 <ehird> esolangs or esoterica
19:07:33 <ais523> fungot: give me some nonsense
19:07:35 <fungot> ais523: installing now. :) just had to check the source addr there. since i didn't bother packing any necessities ( sleeping bag or anything).
19:07:36 <ehird> if it's the latter you've come to the wrong place
19:07:54 <ais523> wow, fungot that almost made sense...
19:07:55 <AnMaster> ais523, was when double including a c file (named as .h) to create two versions of the code.
19:07:55 <fungot> ais523: everyone invents the game when learning about portal culling your e-mail address,
19:08:38 <ais523> and yes, if you play too much Portal your email stops working, that's why millions of people all across the world have made their own versions
19:09:05 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:09:13 <ehird> i thought he meant everyone invents the think-about-it-and-lose gmae
19:09:19 <ehird> as an alternative to Portal, maybe
19:09:37 <ehird> Gracenotes: ps, you lost
19:09:53 <ais523> ehird: you know, that connotation never crossed my mind
19:09:59 <ais523> my The Game defences seem pretty good
19:10:00 <AnMaster> ais523, http://rafb.net/p/3ptqcK43.html
19:10:01 <ais523> even though I don't play it
19:10:12 <ehird> $ bzr log -v -r656
19:10:13 <ehird> ------------------------------------------------------------
19:10:16 <ehird> timestamp: Fri 2009-04-03 23:20:20 +0200
19:10:21 <ehird> Add support for multiple hash libraries.
19:10:25 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/cfunge_mempool.c
19:10:27 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table.h
19:10:29 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions.c
19:10:31 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_table.c
19:10:35 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/cfunge_mempool.c => lib/libghthash_fspace/cfunge_mempool_priv.h
19:10:35 <AnMaster> ais523, bzr didn't like me trying to renaming the directory they were in at the same time
19:10:37 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table.h => lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table_priv.h
19:10:38 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions.c => lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions_priv.h
19:10:41 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_table.c => lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_table_priv.h
19:10:45 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/cfunge_mempool.h
19:10:47 <ehird> src/funge-space/funge-space.c
19:10:48 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/cfunge_mempool_priv.h
19:10:51 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table_priv.h
19:10:52 <AnMaster> like lib/libghthash_fspace -> libghthash
19:10:53 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions_priv.h
19:10:54 <ehird> lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_table_priv.h
19:10:57 <ehird> (my new anti-rafb strategy)
19:11:02 <ais523> ehird: I hope pasting AnMaster's entire commit message in-channel was an accident
19:11:10 <ehird> 19:10 ehird: (my new anti-rafb strategy)
19:11:14 -!- Alicce has left (?).
19:11:19 <AnMaster> ais523, it refused to do that with modified files in the directory
19:11:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well let me rafb my xorg.conf...
19:11:44 <AnMaster> ehird, it's 480 lines with comments
19:11:56 <ais523> AnMaster: go for it, probably it's a good idea to not put it somewhere permanent because it isn't of permanent interest
19:11:59 <AnMaster> well it is you who spammed then not me
19:12:06 <ehird> you spammed my inner logreader.
19:12:09 <ais523> hmm... wait for lament to get back first, though, so we can kick you
19:12:19 <ehird> lament never kicks anyone just threatens <3
19:12:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean kick ehird indeed
19:12:24 <ehird> (now he'll kick me to prove me wrong)
19:12:44 <ais523> well, I'm pretty sure fizzie /has/ kicked ehird in the past
19:12:46 <ehird> fizzie AnMaster's provoking me kick him.
19:12:50 <ehird> ais523: I requested once
19:12:57 <ehird> ais523: Dunno if he's done it again
19:13:21 <AnMaster> I just pastebinnned a file, not my fault ehird decides to paste it in channel then
19:13:32 <ehird> MOD SUCKUP FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
19:14:13 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/WkUSTs47.html
19:15:04 <ais523> AnMaster: why not take screenshots of all the relevant GUI configuration tools instead/
19:15:13 <ehird> rafb doesn't take screenshots
19:15:22 <ehird> and most image hosters leave images around
19:15:22 <AnMaster> ehird, there are other temporary services
19:15:32 <ais523> ehird: I was busy trying to combine two flamewars...
19:15:55 <AnMaster> I will convert the screenshot to a dataurl
19:18:19 -!- neldoret1 has joined.
19:18:43 <ehird> yes, because we didn't talk about magick.
19:18:44 <ais523> maybe she came to the wrong channel
19:18:59 <AnMaster> he or she, you can't know on irc
19:19:09 <ehird> alice is a female name.
19:19:20 <ais523> AnMaster: you can have a female nick but a male name
19:19:24 <ais523> and "she" is often correct then
19:19:30 -!- ehird has changed nick to VANESSA.
19:19:32 <ais523> in #nethack, I use people's character genders when determining pronouns
19:19:33 <VANESSA> AnMaster: hostname was alice
19:19:46 -!- VANESSA has changed nick to ehird.
19:20:22 <AnMaster> ais523, that would different between different games
19:20:59 <oklopol> please refer to me as an it from now on
19:21:06 <AnMaster> ais523, and how do you handle a male chaotic valkyrie (damn amulet of changing...)
19:21:11 <ehird> it says we should call it an it
19:21:15 <ehird> should we call it an it?
19:21:35 <ais523> AnMaster: why does the chaotic matter?
19:21:45 <AnMaster> ais523, no, but that was another mishap
19:21:46 <ais523> also, ais523 refers to themself as "they" whenever possible
19:22:06 <ehird> a friend suggested "fat tub of lard" as a generic pronoun
19:22:18 <ehird> fat tub of lard says we should call fat tub of lard a fat tub of lard
19:27:57 <oklopol> racecar is a palindrome and no one told me!
19:28:28 <oklopol> well that would've been one expensive book
19:28:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, make a script which searches for them all and lists that
19:30:35 <oklopol> i think that's a very hard problem, algorithmically
19:31:33 * oklopol write palindrome checker in clue
19:31:41 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:32:54 <ais523> oklopol: do you have a clue interp yet?
19:33:24 <oklopol> no, just increasingly more confidence in the concept
19:33:42 <oklopol> although i still feel like it could explode any second
19:34:10 <oklopol> that some things simply require either somehow brute forcing the exact definition, or aren't doable at all.
19:34:53 <oklopol> brute forcing as in forcing an exact definition by making all expressions in the body into separate functions
19:35:20 <ehird> $ perl -ne'$_ = lc $_; chomp; print $_, "\n" if $_ eq reverse($_)' /usr/share/dict/words
19:35:53 <ais523> my /usr/share/dict/words isn't all that good
19:37:03 <ehird> $ perl -ne'$_ = lc $_; chomp; print $_, "\n" if $_ eq reverse($_) && length($_) > 3' words
19:37:22 <ehird> $ perl -ne'$_ = lc $_; chomp; print $_, "\n" if $_ eq reverse($_) && length($_) > 3' words | uniq
19:37:27 <ehird> to handle things only differing in case
19:39:00 <ais523> riff-raffless isn't a palindrome
19:39:08 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p255166222.txt
19:39:14 <oklopol> that is one goddamn hard language
19:39:39 <oklopol> but i love the syntax, and the concept
19:39:49 <ais523> oklopol and I have been working on it secretly for ages
19:39:56 <ais523> oklopol's been doing the work, I've been shouting encouragement
19:39:58 <ehird> he's talked about it a lot
19:40:19 <ehird> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.txt
19:40:21 <ehird> i asked about this
19:40:23 <oklopol> when i suddenly decided to publish it
19:40:54 <oklopol> yeah okay, but anyway, mostly it's been secret, since i felt like changing my vaporware image :P
19:41:10 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:%22The_most_important_thing_in_the_programming_language_is_the_name._A_language_will_not_succeed_without_a_good_name._I_have_recently_invented_a_very_good_name_and_now_I_am_looking_for_a_suitable_language.%22
19:41:10 <oklopol> but, meh, taking too long, need the small fame of vapor ;)
19:41:14 <ais523> I have the best mix, I think, real langs with real implementations /and/ vaporware
19:41:21 <ais523> ehird: yes, it was spammy
19:41:26 <ais523> and lots of people didn't want it there
19:41:28 <ehird> ais523: it was being worked on :-(
19:41:30 <ais523> especially as it had no useful content
19:41:39 <ais523> and no it wasn't, obviously
19:41:43 <oklopol> ais523: i have real implementations and real langs, although very few
19:41:44 <ais523> you said a few minutes, it was there for weeks
19:41:59 <ehird> it was a bung-attractor for hype and ridicule that would simmer it down into a language
19:42:05 <oklopol> i'm such a perfectionist when it comes to languages
19:42:09 <ehird> now i have to recreate it to restart the naturamachine
19:42:16 <ais523> oklopol: well, I can be too
19:42:40 <ais523> the trick is to release an imperfect lang and have a vaporware version which is meant to be perfect
19:42:43 <ais523> which is why it's vaporware
19:43:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, any interpreter for it
19:43:27 <AnMaster> also I rememeber ais talking about a lang like that
19:43:30 <oklopol> AnMaster: no, but i'll try speccing on sunday
19:44:00 <AnMaster> both is brute forcing definition
19:44:35 <oklopol> the concept of guessing programs is a very general concept
19:44:57 <oklopol> it just hasn't been done a lot, so just doing it twice seems like the same thing
19:45:17 <AnMaster> I can't think of any other langs like that
19:45:31 <oklopol> of course the reason it hasn't been done is it's a really stupid idea pretty much anywhere except here :P
19:46:58 <ehird> oklopol: so how does clue infer
19:47:03 <ehird> please tell me it uses an ai
19:48:14 <oklopol> i try to put my languages between "pure declarativity", that is, giving absolutely no clue about what to do, and "imperativity", where you tell the interp exactly what to do, kind of a bad term, since haskell would be imperative too
19:48:21 <oklopol> that's the least explored area afaik
19:48:43 <ehird> make a language based on inferring infers
19:49:05 <oklopol> ehird: basically you can just brute force the bodies, there should be no need for making an intelligent implementation.
19:49:30 <oklopol> if you need speed, optimization must be done manually, it's kinda like prolog in this sense
19:50:01 <ehird> make a lang based on optimizing a program that does everything
19:50:12 <ehird> dangerous optimizations, by reducing everything that you don't want to do into a nop
19:50:33 <oklopol> i have many ideas about languages where you teach the deduction engine how to infer functions based on io-pairs, but that's still very experimental
19:51:11 <oklopol> this is more about giving the correct io-pairs
19:52:02 <oklopol> giving just random palindromes and non-palindromes will not work, even if the body of a palindrome checker was accidentally generated, it would be discarded.
19:52:25 <oklopol> because it doesn't work by generating bodies and then trying them.
19:53:24 <oklopol> it works by generating code that links all clues on level 3 to a clue on level 2, then running those bodies, making sure you reach a clue on level 1, then level four is tried for checking correctness
19:53:53 <oklopol> the running phase runs the whole recursion, some predefined amount of steps, until base cases, or failure
19:55:24 <oklopol> it works as long as your functions are really simple, but the beauty is unlike with a system that requires intelligence from the interp, here your functions just need to be simple in function body, not in semantics
19:55:49 <ehird> so you can't do complex stuff
19:56:03 <oklopol> so enough modularity is necessary, and thus also guaranteed, pretty much making this a perfect language
19:56:21 <oklopol> ehird: you can, i just said it in a very philosophical and mysterious way.
19:56:22 <ais523> the language does not allow any large complex chunk
19:56:32 <ais523> everything has to be broken down into small chunks
19:56:33 <ais523> but they can have complex interactions
19:56:39 <ehird> oklopol: so do you have an interp :P
19:56:52 <ais523> the way in which they interact also has to be simple, but it can be structured over several layers so it becomes complex overall
19:56:57 <oklopol> spec on sunday, imp on X-day :)
20:01:00 <oklopol> the problem is while it can do something like a static complex splicing and dicing of the arguments easily, it is very sucky at having any kinds of actual control structures
20:01:19 <ehird> oklopol: how about making examples have 'aliases' like
20:01:27 <ehird> "abc"->poop('ab')+poop('bc')
20:01:40 <ehird> where it acts just like you put the result in, but uses them as hints, sort of
20:03:00 <oklopol> try explaining that again, maybe
20:03:36 <ehird> okay in the example sections instead of just input->constant you can do input->expr, now this expr can call other functions, and it just subtitutes the value BUT it remembers the structure you gave it, so that its end implementation will call the functions etc in the same way
20:04:00 <ehird> so "abc"->poop('ab')+poop('bc') would be "abc"->7, but the end function coming out of it would make those calls to poop and + when you give it that input, and others, when it generalizes
20:04:01 <oklopol> ehird: do realize i'm a bit wary of your suggestions, you usually have ideas i don't really like that much but which you consider much better than mine ;)
20:04:22 <ehird> this gives you function calls and control structure and etc while still not breaking the inferring stuff
20:05:06 <oklopol> actually i have that already, as syntactic sugar
20:05:16 <ehird> but mine takes it beyond that
20:05:23 <ehird> since it remembers the example structure and applies it to its generated function
20:06:26 <oklopol> what do you mean applies it to its generated function
20:06:46 <ehird> oklopol: let's say we have a reverse() function which reverses a string
20:07:06 <ehird> "abcd"->reverse("ab")+reverse("cd")
20:07:16 <oklopol> interesting reverse, but go on
20:07:26 <ehird> "abcd"->reverse("cd")+reverse("ab")
20:07:32 <ehird> "xyzf" -> reverse("zf")+reverse("xy")
20:07:34 <oklopol> less interesting, but go on
20:07:35 <ehird> this would be the same as
20:07:51 <ehird> it would remember the code structure of your example
20:07:55 <ehird> when it generates the final function
20:07:58 <ehird> it would call reverse and +
20:08:05 <ehird> instead of just treating them as constants
20:08:13 <ehird> then generalize this to multiple examples with diff structures etc
20:08:21 <ehird> can't do it in all cases, but it's a fun unification thingy
20:11:13 <oklopol> clue's level system is basically for doing that, except it doesn't rely on somehow extending the pattern
20:11:37 <oklopol> i mean i get it as in i understand it, probably i don't understand it well enough for you to acknowledge i understand it, as usual
20:11:50 <ehird> so I take that means you don't like it
20:12:04 <oklopol> i like it, i just feel like that's the problem and clue is the solution :)
20:12:18 <oklopol> i mean for the "generalize this pattern" part
20:12:22 <ehird> oklopol: semantically it's identical modulo side effects
20:12:35 <ehird> oklopol: it just lets you optimize with control structures etc without having a separate layer for that
20:12:37 <oklopol> basically that'd just be a hint for the body?
20:12:54 <ehird> it's purer than having a separate thing for optimizing the implementation imo
20:13:31 <oklopol> err clue doesn't have that
20:13:41 <ehird> if you want to optimize
20:13:53 <ehird> is palindrome ~ take first, take last, drop first, drop last
20:13:58 <ehird> that seems very non-example to me
20:14:13 <oklopol> no no i meant you just need to know what order to give examples in, and stuff, to make it fast.
20:14:22 <ehird> "is palindrome ~ take first, take last, drop first, drop last"
20:14:30 <oklopol> why it's the function bag!
20:14:34 <ehird> also, even so, I like my thingy
20:14:50 <oklopol> you need to tell it what it's allowed to use for the body
20:15:05 <ehird> it should figur that out
20:15:18 <ehird> yeah it should, and it fits in with my idea too
20:15:21 <ehird> since it can use what you use
20:15:24 <ehird> if you need to guide it
20:15:29 <ehird> but apart from that it should figure it out
20:16:55 <oklopol> ehird: can you write palindrome in yours?
20:17:19 <ehird> is palindrome :: "saippuasammakkokokkammasauppias">true
20:17:20 <ehird> :. "abba">true, "acba">false, "abbc">false, "abcba">true
20:17:22 <ehird> : "bb">true, "cb">false, "bcb">true
20:17:24 <ehird> . "c">true, "">true
20:17:28 <ehird> it'd take 6 billion years to find a correct impl
20:17:30 <ehird> so you can forget that
20:19:14 <Asztal_> are the ::, :., :, and . significant, or just decorative?
20:19:25 <oklopol> Asztal: significant, levels
20:19:43 <ais523> heh, it's onespot, twospot, threespot, fourspot
20:20:13 <ehird> is palindrome :: "saippuasammakkokokkammasauppias">reverse("saippuasammakko")=="saippuasammakko"&&reverse("k")=="k"&&reverse("okkammasauppias")=="okkammasauppias"
20:20:13 <Asztal_> so it should satisfy the first level before moving onto the next one? Sort of like a prune for obviously-bad implementations?
20:20:14 <ehird> :. "abba">reverse("abba")=="abba", "acba">reverse("acba")=="acba", "abbc">reverse("abbc")=="abbc", "abcba">reverse("abcba")=="abcba"
20:20:17 <ehird> : "bb">true, "cb">false, "bcb">true
20:20:19 <ehird> . "c">true, "">true
20:27:29 <oklopol> if reverse is defined, then palindrome only requires two level 1 clues
20:27:50 <ehird> I'm just saying that mine eliminates the ?
20:28:47 <oklopol> right. people have a tendency to want to drop it.
20:29:23 <ehird> ais523: BAND WITH ME
20:29:41 <ais523> ehird: I wasn't paying attention
20:29:48 <oklopol> but he wanted to take it down the purity lane, you seem to want a bit more concrete
20:30:11 <ehird> imo mine increases purity
20:30:15 <ehird> and also serves as optimization
20:30:46 <oklopol> whellll, i disagree, but you're welcome to make your own langer
20:31:32 <oklopol> yours is just a half-baked aardappel ;;;;;)
20:33:51 <ehird> BUT WHO KNOWS BUTTS?
20:34:18 <oklopol> he who knows butts, does not be know to have one.
20:35:08 <oklopol> well, gotta be going now, i've successfully pissed away the whole 10 or so hours i've been awake
20:38:47 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:39:06 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
20:41:58 <AnMaster> and the next few lines make no sense to me either...
20:44:26 <AnMaster> as for aardappel it can't be just "apple"
20:46:03 <AnMaster> for both potato and potatoe I guess.
20:46:11 <AnMaster> well I don't know for the latter
20:46:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it looked like you were saying potatoe == potatis
20:47:23 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, <AnMaster> that looks like typoed potato <psygnisfive> nah
20:47:40 <psygnisfive> oh, i thought you were talking about something else when you said that
20:50:34 * AnMaster wonders how sane upgrading between major X releases while it is running is...
20:50:59 * ehird makes Squeak look nice
20:51:36 <AnMaster> xorg 1.3.0.0 -> 1.5.3 while xorg and KDE is running
20:51:37 <ais523> AnMaster: you'd probably need to restart X afterwards
20:51:49 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but will stuff break horribly while it is going say
20:51:58 <ais523> but I've upgraded Ubuntu from major release to major release before now with X running
20:52:06 <ais523> and the version of X probably changed in at least one of those
20:52:13 <AnMaster> ais523, say I want to start a new app using X while it has recompiled half of the libraries
20:52:45 <ais523> in an existing X session, or a new one?
20:52:45 <ehird> this squeak could look passable if you gave it native window creation
20:53:11 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be less closed world
20:53:19 <ehird> Pharo is less closed world.
20:54:00 <ehird> http://www.pharo-project.org/home
20:54:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well it looks like it has native OS X windows
20:54:25 <AnMaster> but does it look as good on *nix
20:54:31 <ehird> just lookalikes, I said
20:54:33 <ehird> there are other themes
20:54:39 <ehird> AnMaster: IT DOESN'T USE THE OS X THEME EITHER
20:54:44 <ehird> it's just a theme made to look like os x
20:55:07 <AnMaster> I hope Apple didn't copyright the GUI...
20:55:38 <ais523> it seems Apple patented automatic updates
20:55:50 <ais523> stupid software patents FTW?
20:56:01 <AnMaster> ais523, antivirus apps had it for way longer
20:56:11 <ehird> ais523: no, it's different
20:56:21 <ehird> i don't like apple any more and even I can see through the hyperbole
20:56:23 <ehird> yes it's a shit patent
20:56:29 <ehird> no it's not a blanket patent on everything that updates itself
20:56:37 <ehird> AnMaster: of course they did
20:56:41 <ehird> but they lost in court
20:56:59 <ehird> [which is bullshit, design is one of the few things that copyright can probably reasonably apply to]
20:57:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: of course they did <ehird> but they lost in court <ehird> in the 80s <-- who wut
20:57:14 <ehird> 20:55 AnMaster: I hope Apple didn't copyright the GUI...
20:57:42 <ais523> well, it's a patent on automatic updates without notifying the user
20:58:00 <AnMaster> ais523, prior art: some backdoors
21:01:07 <ehird> Monticello is nice
21:01:54 <Gracenotes> ehird: actually, no, I didn't lose when you said I did
21:02:10 * Gracenotes was away with college shopping and walking the dog
21:03:51 * AnMaster should make a bot that prints such a message at random times in this channel
21:04:50 <Gracenotes> no, people would be under the constant shadow of ulostgaemlol bot
21:05:07 <Gracenotes> and so reminding them of a situation they already knew doesn't have much effect
21:05:22 * ais523 wants to get a widespread portability survey of C-INTERCAL done
21:05:50 <ais523> I know it works on: gcc, bcc (real-mode K&R C compiler), arm-linux-gcc (cross-compiler), clang, llvm-gcc
21:05:57 <ais523> on x86 except where stated
21:06:57 <ais523> I don't have a 64-bit system to test on
21:07:03 <ais523> even though I do have an ARM emulator
21:07:05 <AnMaster> ais523, open64 works on 32-bit
21:07:13 <AnMaster> in fact I only have it on my pentium3
21:07:27 <ais523> apt-cache turns up nothing
21:07:53 <AnMaster> ais523, frontend is gcc-based, backend is not
21:08:26 <AnMaster> ais523, http://www.open64.net/
21:08:53 <AnMaster> ais523, btw which gcc versions have you tested ick on
21:09:10 <ais523> I haven't checked on old versions, although that's a good idea
21:10:05 <ais523> gcc-3.4's the oldest in the repo, I'll check on that
21:10:17 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge is tested on gcc 3.4.6, 4.1.2, 4.2.1, 4.3.2 and 4.3.3 (the latter two only because I happen to have both around, usually I only bother with one from each x.y
21:10:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and icc 10.1, open64 4.1, and svn head of clang
21:11:03 <AnMaster> and I tested pcc and tcc and they fail totally
21:11:11 <ais523> pcc failing is bad bad bad
21:11:15 <ais523> I should definitely test gcc on that
21:11:19 <ais523> I'm not sure if I have it handy, though
21:11:25 <AnMaster> why is pcc failing bad bad bad?
21:11:39 <ais523> hmm... pcc isn't in my repo
21:11:46 <ais523> and it's bad because it's the default compiler on various systems
21:11:47 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed, it is *bsd only iirc
21:11:55 <ais523> why wouldn't it run on Linux?
21:12:00 <AnMaster> I never even got it to compile hello world on linux
21:12:04 <ais523> does it depend on BCD behaviour?
21:12:07 <AnMaster> it fails at glibc system headers
21:12:24 <ehird> binary coded decimal
21:12:27 <ais523> why doesn't it use its own
21:12:44 <ais523> ehird: x86 has binary coded decimal instructions, nobody ever uses them
21:12:46 <AnMaster> ais523, a bit hard to not use system signal.h
21:12:58 <ais523> AnMaster: bcc seems to manage it
21:13:01 <AnMaster> I mean limits.h and some stdint and such sure
21:13:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well one is real mode, the other is cross-compiler
21:13:44 <AnMaster> while if you want to compile native normal apps for a *nix you want to use system headers + a few compiler specific
21:13:45 <ais523> admittedly, gcc-bf has problems with multiplication
21:13:51 <ais523> which is much easier than signals
21:14:55 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway pcc isn't default on any OS I know
21:14:57 <ais523> http://www.open64.net/faq.html is not very encouraging
21:15:29 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed. open64 sucks when it comes to docs and so on
21:15:54 <AnMaster> ais523, this may be a better place to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open64
21:15:56 <ais523> C-INTERCAL doesn't even depend on C89 nowadays
21:16:11 <AnMaster> ais523, so what do you do for vsnprintf() and such?
21:16:34 <ais523> there's a config option
21:16:51 <AnMaster> ais523, but since there is no standard for these pre-ANSI ones
21:17:00 <AnMaster> how the heck do you know what to use
21:17:22 <AnMaster> I mean, what functions are guaranteed to exist in pre-ANSI C? Any at all?
21:17:24 <ais523> you do it via experimentation
21:17:26 <fizzie> Z80 has even more BCD instructions, and they're very much used by the TI calculators, since the TI float format is a BCD one.
21:17:31 <ais523> and all the ones in K&R1 are likely to exist
21:17:44 <ais523> autoconf's great, though, it does the experimentation all by itself
21:18:01 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc the BCD instructions are illegal under x86_64
21:18:47 <AnMaster> AAA ASCII Adjust After Addition
21:18:48 <AnMaster> Adjusts the value in the AL register to an unpacked BCD value. Use the AAA instruction after using
21:18:48 <AnMaster> the ADD instruction to add two unpacked BCD numbers.
21:18:48 <AnMaster> Using this instruction in 64-bit mode generates an invalid-opcode exception.
21:19:03 <AnMaster> that last line seems to figure in several of the BCD instructions
21:20:38 <fizzie> Aw, no love for BCD. Maybe they could add some SSE-whatever instructions that operate on 32-digit BCD numbers.
21:21:08 <AnMaster> BOUND (check array bound) is also invalid in 64-bit mode
21:21:25 <AnMaster> but it seems a rather silly bounds checking one indeed
21:24:10 <AnMaster> not a 2-word CAS though :/ it seems to require the two words to be after each other
21:26:12 -!- Mony has joined.
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21:32:15 <AnMaster> To avoid an invalid-opcode exception (#UD) on those processor implementations that do not support the CPUID instruction, software must first test to determine if the CPUID instruction is supported.
21:32:21 <oklopol> ah it's you, Guest34814, you shouldn't join with confusing nicks like Mony.
21:33:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, isn't mony someone we have seen here before iirc?
21:33:17 <oklopol> but Guest34814 is a regular
21:33:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, the number is random, when you don't identify
21:33:51 -!- ais523 has quit ("rebooting after kernel upgrade, I'll be back soon").
21:33:57 <AnMaster> services auto-changes your nick after a timeout
21:34:04 <AnMaster> there is some option to turn it on
21:35:42 -!- Guest34814 has changed nick to M0ny.
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21:38:51 <M0ny> autochange nick
21:40:41 <AnMaster> M0ny, just set your client to use M0ny by default then
21:41:43 <AnMaster> -M0ny- VERSION clientIRC 0.1 monyOS [Intel/480,00GHz]
21:43:37 <fizzie> Is it possible to dump a web page as a nicely formatted plain-text file with no word-wrapping (one paragraph per line) but simultaneously so that <hr> tags don't turn to absurdly long lines? Both "lynx -dump" and "w3m -dump" do word-wrapping, and both have options to control column width (-width for lynx, -cols for w3m) but *both* turn make absurdly long hr lines if I specify an absurd width to avoid wrapping. (At least lynx only writes a thousand _s, w3m see
21:43:37 <fizzie> ms to do something like 20000.
21:45:59 <fizzie> I guess I can just undo the wrapping, that'll be easier.
21:47:08 <fizzie> But that would mess things like lists where there are newlines that I actually want.
21:48:47 <fizzie> "elinks -dump 1 -dump-width <a large number>" does an equally silly thing about <hr>.
21:49:12 <AnMaster> "but *both* turn make absurdly long hr lines"
21:49:26 <fizzie> Just remove the "turn" or something.
21:49:44 <fizzie> I guess I could strip hr tags and dump. Stripping all tags leaves me with the suboptimal whitespace in the HTML file.
21:49:51 <Deewiant> fizzie: If hr is your problem then... yeah
21:50:09 <fizzie> Well, hr is the only problem with "absurd width output" I've seen so far in this.
21:50:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not dump and strip the _____
21:50:39 <fizzie> Well, I guess I could do that too. Or rather, normalize it to some sensible size.
21:50:52 <M0ny> [22:41] <AnMaster> M0ny, just set your client to use M0ny by default then <-- I prefer Mony with a o instead of the 0
21:53:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, crazy idea: curl http://example.com/ | html2latex | latex2lyx | lyx -e 'buffer-export "Plain text"'
21:53:57 <AnMaster> and wouldn't work with pipes but need to load from files
21:56:44 <fizzie> Simple w3m -cols 10000 -dump ... | sed -re 's/^β+$/--------------------/' seems to do a reasonably sensible output.
21:58:12 <fizzie> There's something weird about w3m spacing in that there's a table of contents done (ugly) with <table> and lines "<tr><td>N.</td><td>Nth chapter title</td></tr>" and if I do -cols 1000000 it outputs a thousand spaces between "N." and "Nth chapter title".
21:58:49 <Deewiant> I guess it makes tables 100% wide
21:59:33 <fizzie> Probably, although with -cols 10000 there's just a few spaces in there; I mean, there's no need to allocate much extra width to that first column.
22:02:04 <ehird> debian bug tracking sux
22:08:54 <ehird> ais523: I just ran into an actual write-only thing
22:09:19 <ehird> when we last discussed those we couldn't think of any
22:10:02 <fizzie> Okay, the w3m output is acceptable. (I'm turning some html files into plaintext for reading on the DS; have to leave tomorrow at around 06am to an Easter trip to Eastern Finland.)
22:10:52 <ehird> fizzie: can't you get an html viewery thinger for it
22:11:18 <fizzie> Probably, but I've habitualized myself with the moonshell text-viewer, which is a bit idiosyncratztic but otherwise okay.
22:11:29 <ehird> port w3m to it ^_^
22:11:44 <fizzie> I think DSOrganize already has some sort of HTML renderer, but it's less nice.
22:11:59 <fizzie> Besides, I think it corrupted the FAT once.
22:12:06 <fizzie> Could've been some other program too, though.
22:13:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: I just ran into an actual write-only thing <-- the debian bug tracker?
22:13:48 <ehird> a monticello repository
22:14:08 <AnMaster> "Monticello (pronounced [mΙntΙΛtΚΙloΚ]), located near Charlottesville, Virginia, was the estate of Thomas Jefferson"
22:14:11 <ehird> http://www.wiresong.ca/Monticello/
22:15:48 <AnMaster> or a specific such repo being that
22:16:57 <ehird> sm://, which is just a protocol for copying monticello repos to make a SqueakMap releas
22:17:40 <ehird> "Now please type 'make' to compile. Good luck."
22:17:52 <ehird> i appreciate your thoughtfulness!
22:18:06 <ais523> who puts that at the end of a configure, I wonder?
22:18:15 <ais523> it's only one extra line in autoconf, although you have to write it by hand
22:19:11 <ehird> ais523: this thing has bolded section headings for different parts of the configure
22:19:14 <ehird> so it's quite tweaked
22:19:18 <AnMaster> it would be two extra lines in cmake (one to import a standard module for summary at end, another for the message)
22:19:24 <ehird> the first line in the .ac:
22:19:24 <ehird> dnl Hey Emacs, I want this in -*- Autoconf -*- mode, please.
22:19:31 <ais523> ehird: that's not really tweaked
22:19:40 <ais523> it's just a case of adding extra commands, which is easy
22:20:01 <ehird> AM_CONDITIONAL(WITH_EMACS, test "$EMACS" != no)
22:20:10 <ehird> if you don't have it it compiles 10x slower because it doesn't like you.
22:20:46 <ais523> WITH_EMACS? in /Automake/?
22:20:56 <ais523> does it build elcs, or something?
22:21:04 <ais523> or maybe install .el files, that's saner
22:21:34 <ehird> it has an emacs mode
22:21:45 <ais523> ehird: AM_ implies it's using automake
22:21:50 <ais523> automake requires some hooks in the autoconf file
22:21:55 <ais523> which is what you're seeing there
22:23:18 <ehird> http://libsigsegv.sourceforge.net/
22:23:39 <ehird> has portability considerations
22:23:58 <ehird> Copyright 1998-1999, 2002-2008 Bruno Haible <bruno@clisp.org>
22:23:59 <ehird> Copyright 2002-2005 Paolo Bonzini <bonzini@gnu.org>
22:24:05 <ehird> the bullied-by-rms guy and the guy who wrote this autoconf
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22:26:36 <akiross> hey, ehird :) long time no see
22:26:49 <akiross> i've been busy with exams for a while :S
22:27:15 <ehird> ais523: he's been in here before
22:27:18 <akiross> ow, i joined some weeks ago...
22:27:32 <ehird> sorry, we haven't forgotten you :P
22:27:49 <akiross> :D thanks i'm not really present on irc
22:28:40 <AnMaster> ehird, interesting this libsigsegv
22:28:42 <ehird> st> true become: false
22:28:42 <ehird> Object: true error: Invalid value nil: object is read-only
22:29:02 <akiross> actually i think i presented myself only to few ones :S
22:29:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I much prefer the feather way of making true always have been false, all the time along
22:29:26 <ehird> AnMaster: true havenBecome: false
22:29:34 <ehird> (yes, that's grammatically correct)
22:29:51 <AnMaster> ehird, what would the "haven" mean
22:30:11 <akiross> i'm developing a sort of assembly language for oo message passing and i'm here to learn something :) that's all
22:30:15 <ehird> "My brother and I, having destroyed the nuclear reactor,"
22:30:19 <ehird> haven X is in the sense of having there
22:30:23 <ehird> maybe havingBecome: would be better
22:31:05 <ehird> ais523: hasBeen: surely
22:31:10 <ehird> but that implies too recent imo
22:31:32 <ehird> true hasAlwaysBeen: false
22:31:44 <AnMaster> ehird, even better, would be this: "if (a == 1) a haveBeen: 1; else a haveBeen 0;
22:31:58 <AnMaster> ais523, Feather is TC to parse right
22:32:25 <ais523> AnMaster: actaully, no, it parses very simply
22:32:36 <ais523> it just recursively parses itself several times after it's been parsed once
22:32:40 <AnMaster> ais523, couldn't you do same parse-tc thing as in perl really
22:32:45 <fizzie> Well, it's nice that it's someone else who's had to think about how to port that sigsegv handling; there seem to be some specialization involved for almost all (os, architecture) pairs in it. Also it doesn't do what I want in jitfunge (not surprisingly, since it's such a peculiar need), which is to fake the stack underflow so that it skips the faulting instruction, "returns" a zero, and counteracts the effect of any instructions that moved the stack pointer.
22:32:45 <fizzie> It seems that a libsigsegv handler can only resume execution if it manages to make that location of memory usable. (It could be used for growing the stack, though.)
22:34:16 <fizzie> (I guess you could use it for stack underflow by allowing the stack to grow to the "wrong" direction too, and add some mapped pages with zeroes.)
22:35:26 <AnMaster> but it seems useful for other stuff
22:35:39 <AnMaster> I might end up doing something like that in cfunge some day
22:36:16 <ehird> that's why i mentioned it
22:36:22 <AnMaster> since popping a zero has high overhead then
22:36:30 <AnMaster> and pop on empty stack is very common
22:36:41 <AnMaster> at least those I write and in mycology
22:36:50 <ehird> you talked about it yesterday
22:36:55 <ehird> and I said I knew of a portable lib
22:37:07 <fizzie> Common, schmommon; I guess it's common with the weenies who use {}. :p
22:37:42 <fizzie> If you don't use {} and it is a real program, there's always something relevant on the stack and you're not going to be underflowizing it. At least that's what happens to me always.
22:39:22 <fizzie> Yes, well, if you do n in a long-living program, either you are storing in funge-space something that you could as well keep on stack, or you're inside a {} block. Well, again, that's what I feel, anyway.
22:39:26 <ais523> AnMaster: what I mean with Feather is that the first pass is always trivial, because it's just tokenising into letters
22:39:28 <ais523> the rest happens at runtime
22:40:44 * ehird types 2+2, middle clicks, Print it, gets 2+24
22:44:18 <AnMaster> ais523, write a first stage parser then. I mean do you ever plan to spec, or even implement feather?
22:44:24 <AnMaster> btw why the name feather for it
22:44:37 <AnMaster> ehird, that's a silly way to print it
22:44:43 <ehird> AnMaster: not really
22:44:48 <ehird> it's how smalltalks work
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22:44:52 <ehird> albeit most print a space before the output
22:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, which smalltalk is this btw
22:45:19 <ehird> http://smalltalk.gnu.org/
22:45:23 <ehird> conclusion: lamer than squeak
22:46:14 <AnMaster> which does have certain advantages though
22:46:42 <AnMaster> anyway I'm not comfortable with IDEs. I prefer a text editor
22:46:59 <ehird> yes, well, that's an excellent way to get completely nothing out of smalltalk
22:47:11 <ehird> its world, its OS is its IDE; just like Unix is an IDE
22:47:14 <AnMaster> ehird, and sure if you have an extensive class library, say Java or .NET then an IDE is nice to keep track of things
22:47:23 <ehird> i don't think you understand
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22:47:53 <AnMaster> ehird, but do you want an IDE when coding C for example
22:48:03 <ehird> yes, I want my IDE to be unix
22:48:07 <AnMaster> or just a reasonable text editor with some syntax highlighting
22:48:16 <ehird> my editor is vim and it integrates into my IDE called unix
22:48:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that's an interesting way of describing it
22:48:29 <ehird> AnMaster: it describes the unix philosophy perfectly
22:48:37 <ehird> emacs is its own IDE
22:48:41 <ehird> not as good as unix, I find
22:48:58 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I have been using kate for editor a lot recently
22:49:06 <ehird> does it have an equivalent of vim's :! ?
22:49:13 <ehird> if so, it's an editor for the ide unix
22:49:30 <AnMaster> ehird, clicking "yes I'm sure I want to quit"? wait no that was :q! hm
22:49:44 <ehird> :! filters the selection/document through a unix command
22:49:56 <AnMaster> ehird, no clue, nothing I used anyway
22:50:00 <ehird> reverse the document? :!tac
22:50:15 <ehird> admittedly, you can do that with /
22:50:21 <ehird> but sed is smaller for some things
22:50:45 <AnMaster> ehird, it does have a built in mini terminal emulator, konsole lite
22:51:01 <ehird> that isn't really the same thing
22:53:29 <AnMaster> ehird, yes there seems to be such a feature, but rather hard to use
22:53:46 <ehird> then it's not much of a unix app :-)
22:54:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well Ctrl-AltGr-+ to get Ctrl-\ is bulky IMO
22:54:17 <AnMaster> I guess that depends on keyboard layout
22:54:37 <AnMaster> ehird, Ctrl-\ enter command hit enter
22:54:45 <AnMaster> that is how you do the filter thing in kate
22:55:24 <AnMaster> ehird, it does have one nice feature: autocompletion based on existing words in the document
22:55:45 <ehird> you can even rebind <TAB> to be smart: completes or indents based on your context
22:55:45 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but as a pop up as you type
22:55:52 <ehird> it comes as a dropdown
22:55:57 <ehird> it's all just a copy of IntelliSense
22:55:59 <AnMaster> ehird, that looks like KDE style
22:56:06 <ehird> AnMaster: if you have a kde vim gui, yes.
22:56:16 <ehird> also, vim can have language-specific completion files too
22:56:25 <ehird> so you can complete builtins
22:56:35 <AnMaster> ehird, vim can't have sane keybindings thogh
22:56:43 <ehird> sure it can, you can rebind anything
22:56:48 <ehird> yes, it's modal, that's a feature
22:56:52 <AnMaster> ehird, to remove the two-mode bit
22:56:56 <ehird> the composition of commands is beautiful and expressive
22:57:00 <ehird> visual mode for selection.
22:57:07 <ehird> also, I have some insert-mode bindings
22:57:11 <ehird> like ^A/^E from emacs/bash
22:57:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no because it defeats the point
22:57:27 <ehird> "Can I run IE on Linux? Also I want Outlook and viruses."
22:57:29 <AnMaster> ehird, then vim isn't for me, I want a single mode editor
22:57:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you can run IE on linux
22:57:47 <ehird> Whooooooooooooooosh!
22:57:52 <Deewiant> Normal, insert, replace, reverse insert, visual, visual line, visual block, operator-pending, command-line
22:58:17 <AnMaster> anyway I like emacs and kate better
22:58:28 <ehird> AnMaster: your loss
22:58:33 <ehird> t ell me when you switch to unix
22:58:38 <ehird> instead of the bad copies
22:58:59 <AnMaster> anyway I think you can rebind in kate
22:59:49 <AnMaster> there is a "google selection" heh
23:00:10 <AnMaster> (you can add your own commands btw, either simple script or full-fledged plugins)
23:00:18 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc plugins is hard in vim
23:00:27 <ehird> there are many vim plugins
23:00:33 <ehird> cd ~/.vim/plugin; wget foo
23:00:38 <ehird> load in your .vimrc
23:00:40 <AnMaster> as in say auto completion is a plugin you can select in some configuration location
23:00:58 <ehird> Deewiant: not really
23:01:02 <ehird> not if you don't use vimscript
23:01:08 <AnMaster> well for emacs it is easy to make them, a bit harder for kate
23:01:16 <Deewiant> ehird: I've heard the APIs for non-vimscript are crippled
23:01:17 <AnMaster> ehird, vim still seems rather monolithic
23:01:24 <ehird> Deewiant: Beats using vimscript
23:01:27 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not, in practic
23:01:38 <Deewiant> ehird: Point being you have no choice since you can't do stuff without vimscript
23:01:47 <ehird> Deewiant: Do bits in vimscript and call out to it
23:02:20 <ehird> AnMaster: If there isn't one of many plugins that do what you want you have obscure needs anyway
23:02:35 <Deewiant> ehird: And yeah, that's already making it something other than 'easy' IMHO
23:02:45 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, then writing emacs plugins isn't easy either.
23:03:04 <Deewiant> http://items.sjbach.com/560/extensibility-in-vim-and-emacs
23:03:19 <ehird> I disagree with most its points
23:04:43 <Deewiant> It's mostly the points in 2 that seem problematic
23:05:19 <Deewiant> Although not all of them are quite pointful
23:05:42 <Deewiant> (Point vi in particular is a bit of a joke)
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23:12:15 <fizzie> Heh, 01am and the alarm clocksies are set for 05am to have enough time for packing and getting to the train place. Night, and habby easter-time; probably won't be much here until late Sunday-night. (Although there should be wlan in the hotel; but wouldn't count on that.)
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00:06:24 <Slereah> What's a good program to input a character and it gives you its unicode number?
00:06:35 <Slereah> I have no idea what to google for
00:07:11 <ehird> python -c 'print "U+" + raw_input().decode("UTF-8").strip()[0]'
00:07:56 <ehird> python -c 'print "U+%04x" % ord(raw_input().decode("UTF-8").strip()[0])'
00:08:09 <Slereah> I use the python interpreter directly, what's the -c for?
00:08:22 <ehird> python -c 'print "U+%04X" % ord(raw_input().decode("UTF-8").strip()[0])'
00:08:22 <Slereah> >>> print "U+%04x" % ord(raw_input().decode("UTF-8").strip()[0])
00:08:30 <ehird> Slereah: lets you specify a script on the command line
00:08:37 <ehird> also whaddya mean close enough
00:08:40 <ehird> unicode codepoints are in hex
00:08:46 <ehird> python -c 'print "U+%04X" % ord(raw_input().decode("UTF-8").strip()[0])'
00:08:50 <ehird> use the X since it uppercases hexy things
00:09:57 <Slereah> UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode byte 0x81 in position 0: unexpected code byte
00:11:32 <ehird> Slereah: it's not in utf-8
00:11:39 <ehird> try changing UTF-8 to UTF-16
00:12:09 <Slereah> http://www.decodeunicode.org/en/project
00:12:37 <ehird> change utf-8 to utf-16
00:12:40 <Slereah> I'm trying to fine the unicode of different spaces
00:14:32 <Slereah> <ehird> change utf-8 to utf-16
00:14:40 <ehird> python -c 'print "U+%04X" % ord(raw_input().decode("UTF-8").strip()[0])'
00:16:02 <ehird> that isn't a valid unicode char
00:16:34 <Slereah> Is shifted JIS part of unicode, or is it another standard alltogether?
00:19:40 <Slereah> SJIS infos are much more sparse.
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02:33:19 <zzo38> Now I know what is unitary matrix! I read the book ROAD TO REALITY but now really I know.
02:33:32 <zzo38> I guess the matrix also has to have a reciprocal.
02:33:48 <zzo38> Becuase I read somewhere that the computation has to be reversible
02:34:12 <zzo38> So [1,1;1,-1] is unitary, am I right? And [1,1;-1,1] is also unitary I think. (Ignoring normalization)
02:34:59 <zzo38> I found the equation for measure of quantum state it is (<x|y><y|x>)/(<x|x><y|y>) I have programmed it into my graphing calculator and it works OK
02:35:44 <zzo38> And I have made many cards in Magic: the Gathering
02:35:54 <zzo38> And including new entity/playercard rules.
02:36:31 <zzo38> They originally wanted planeswalkers to be another player but it didn't. My rule playercards they are another player.
02:39:26 <kerlo> Unitary ignoring normalization?
02:40:11 <zzo38> Roger Penrose doesn't bother with normalization, so neither do I.
02:41:18 <zzo38> How many people do and do not insist on normalization and in what circumstances?
02:41:27 <zzo38> Sometimes normalization is useful, though.
02:41:47 <kerlo> What's a non-unitary matrix with determinant equal to 1?
02:42:44 <zzo38> I don't know everything
02:43:25 <zzo38> But I do know that a quantum state vector cannot be all zero it is obviously to me that if you do, you are dividing by zero when doing the measurement according to the equation that I have described, just by looking at it.
02:48:03 <zzo38> I looked at the Google search for site:tunes.org zzo38
02:55:55 <zzo38> I only got 9 results, though.
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04:01:48 <zzo38> Is the recipe for poundcake necessary? Isn't it just you put 1 pound of each ingredient and put in oven, I think. But you can post recipe if you want to
04:02:19 <zzo38> Do you have the idea of Magic: the Gathering cards, please?
04:02:44 <zzo38> I made 2 sets of Magic: the Gathering cards, called Unplugged and Super Unplugged.
04:03:03 <zzo38> The Super Unplugged is incomplete. And the next one will be called Hyper Unplugged.
04:03:36 <zzo38> Do you like these cards?
04:03:59 <zzo38> Many of them I invented or make a similar version, some are from another source, though.
04:07:04 <zzo38> O, I forgot to write the URL for the cards
04:08:50 <zzo38> "Lose priority" is now the cost of some abilities.
04:08:59 <zzo38> Some activated abilities do nothing.
04:10:55 <zzo38> Some cards do not have any effect.
04:11:23 <zzo38> Drawing cards, gaining life, and gaining mana, can all be costs in some of these cards.
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07:37:50 <oklopol> well okay, i guess i just hate the singer
07:38:35 <oklopol> a youtube comment said an arch enemy piece was a ripoff of this one megadeth song; has a superficially similar beginning, then 6 minutes of filler unmusic
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08:01:07 <oklopol> HAHA YOU MADE A GRAMMATICAL ERROR :DDDDDDDD
08:02:05 <oklopol> maybe you should program like a program that calculates factorials!
08:02:29 <oklopol> fizziet: obligatory irc-visit during train trip?
08:02:55 <oklopol> is someone else seeing this?
08:03:07 <oklopol> i'm assuming you're not traveling alone
08:03:31 <fizziet> Well, no, not alone, but my travelling company is sleeping.
08:04:02 <oklopol> fizziet: HOW CAN A WHOLE COMPANY SLEEP?
08:04:30 <oklopol> psygnisfive: code a program that like, writes hello world in the standard input
08:04:41 <fizziet> Obviously only a company that does not care about PROFIT MARGINS can sleep.
08:04:41 <oklopol> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;>
08:05:45 <oklopol> this was a temporary waking up
08:06:14 <oklopol> psygnisfive: write like a program that can ask the users name and then like, you know, greet them?!?
08:06:57 <oklopol> well night, this company'll sleep too, now
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08:43:30 <oerjan> <zzo38> I looked at the Google search for site:tunes.org zzo38
08:43:44 <oerjan> google doesn't seem to pick up all the logs
08:46:24 <oerjan> <kerlo> What's a non-unitary matrix with determinant equal to 1?
08:47:10 <oerjan> ab-cd=1 but not unitary
08:47:25 <oerjan> several ways, one is to scale each vector the opposite way
08:48:03 <oerjan> so, [1/2,0;0,2] is a trivial example
08:49:44 <oerjan> allowing non-normalized unitary matrices ruins the simple algebraic definition
08:50:30 <oerjan> i.e. the conjugate transpose _is_ the reciprocal
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12:01:30 <fizziep> Hello again, this time from the hotel.
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12:12:55 <oklopol> well another morning to you!
12:14:16 <fizziep> I could've been here to do a third "hello" before leaving home, around 06am, but we had some technical difficulties in waking up, and the departure was a bit... hurried.
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12:27:48 <asiekierka> I'm busy with MS Paint Adventures's new subforum for your own MSPA's
12:32:15 <asiekierka> http://mspaintadventures.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=35
12:54:16 <asiekierka> I can't believe my topic stayed for 5 days or so
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13:02:38 <oklopol> okay the downhill is steepening, i got a 4, and 6/38 got a 5.
13:03:50 <oklopol> of course, that was a scheduling failure on my part, read the wrong material
13:04:04 <oklopol> that have beaten me in an exam.
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14:50:28 <ehird> My nice looking Squeak/Pharo setup: http://xs538.xs.to/xs538/09155/picture_1638.png
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15:01:54 <ehird> http://www.sorting-algorithms.com/
15:05:55 <ehird> also http://www.users.muohio.edu/helmicmt/sorting/sorting.html
15:12:19 <AnMaster> oh wait his bnc is still connected
15:12:30 <ehird> he was in here earlier
15:13:26 <ehird> so I was kind of preoccupied
15:15:21 <ehird> "'We're Linux' Commercial Winner ANNOUNCED! Linux ads on TV could be coming soon!"
15:15:29 <ehird> I bet one of the shit ones won.
15:15:46 <ehird> The first one is fine
15:15:51 <ehird> The second one is the CULT BACTERIA BJORK VIDEO one.
15:16:34 <ehird> Aw the funny one was only third place
15:16:38 <ehird> ANyway they all suck
15:16:42 <ehird> They don't say what linux is
15:35:41 <Deewiant> Many ads don't say what it is they're advertising
15:36:26 <ehird> Sure, but in a lot of cases, it's easy to find out, easy to deduce, or people probably have already heard of it, or can ask someone who has
15:36:57 <ehird> Linux is virtually unknown and all this advert says is "YOU CAN TWEAK IT A LOT", which I might add is not a huge selling point for an OS -- a lot of tweakers probably already use Linux, that market isn't hard
15:37:06 <ehird> It doesn't even mention computers.
15:37:53 <Deewiant> People know what Macs and Windows are, so juxtaposition works there IMO
15:38:45 <ehird> Deewiant: I did not see Mac or Windows mentioned in the winning ad.
15:39:13 <ehird> http://www.gizmostyle.com/2009/04/09/were-linux-winner-announced-are-linux-ads-coming-to-tv-screens/
15:39:29 <ehird> The second one is the cult-bacteria-Bjork-video one.
15:39:49 <ehird> The third one is the hilarious-and-helpful (it mentions computers and windows and apple...)
15:39:54 <ehird> So it probably should have won
15:39:57 <Deewiant> The crayon-y one is typical of modern ads, I think
15:39:58 <ehird> With dubbing that i
15:40:12 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes but it's also not going to help at all
15:40:21 <Deewiant> It's supposed to pique your interest
15:40:25 <Deewiant> And make you want to find out more
15:40:34 <ehird> Amusingly surreal ads are also common, so that doesn't rule out #3.
15:45:40 <ehird> the second one is so unbelievably crap
15:45:44 <ehird> it's fucking scary!
15:45:54 <Deewiant> It's cool but it's not much of an advertisement :-)
15:46:03 <ehird> click the vimeo logo and it should bring up a separate page
15:46:14 <ehird> Deewiant: cool? it's not even entertaining
15:46:16 <ehird> it's just disturbing
15:47:36 <ehird> oklopol: you're on jewbuntu right?
15:47:39 <ehird> which flash plugin?
15:47:55 <ehird> right but is it adobe's or gnash or w/e
15:48:46 <ehird> "vimeo" on the second video
15:48:50 <ehird> should load a vimeo page
15:48:58 <oklopol> i meant to know which flash
15:49:04 <oklopol> i have the vimeo place open
15:49:04 <ehird> go to about:plugins
15:49:12 <ehird> and find something about flasher or gnash or adobe or whatevar
15:49:56 <oklopol> application/x-shockwave-flash Shockwave Flash swf Yes
15:50:06 <ehird> riiiight okay anything else?
15:50:28 <ehird> anything about adobe or flasher or gnash
15:50:49 <ehird> File name: Flash Player.plugin
15:50:51 <ehird> Shockwave Flash 10.0 r22
15:50:54 <ehird> if that's there, or similar, it's adobe
15:50:59 <ehird> if gnash or something is there, it's...gnash
15:51:11 <oklopol> no gnash, no adobe, no flasher
15:51:20 <ehird> there has to be or the other vidyas wouldn't play :D
15:52:12 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p663436216.txt
15:52:22 <ehird> textual screenshots :D
15:52:25 <ehird> File name: libflashplayer.so
15:52:27 <ehird> Shockwave Flash 9.0 r31
15:52:32 <ehird> hokie, maybe flash 10's needed
15:52:40 <ehird> oklopol: system->administration->synaptic package manager
15:52:43 <ehird> search for "flash"
15:52:45 <ehird> which one's ticked
15:52:48 <ehird> and is there any "10"s
15:55:28 <oklopol> there's flashplugin, and it's 9
15:56:10 <ehird> oklopol: no 10 ones?
15:56:42 <ehird> oklopol: then you'll have to uninstall that and get it from adobe, think it's worth it? :P
15:57:02 <oklopol> nothing's worth something that drastic :D
15:57:16 <ehird> yeah 30 seconds of work is drastic :D
15:57:51 <oklopol> it's not the duration, it's the principle! who am i kidding, it's the insanity.
16:00:28 <oklopol> the level 3 ai is scary, it's like playing against god, except he actually moves the pieces
16:00:49 <oklopol> well you know the reversi that came with the os
16:00:59 <ehird> you didn't specify :P
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16:01:03 * ehird starts up ubuntu vm
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16:01:11 <oklopol> well i assumed it was self-evident ;)
16:01:15 <ehird> which one's reversi?
16:01:44 <ehird> does iagno have multiplayer over network
16:01:55 <oklopol> dunno. i wouldn't play with you :)
16:02:01 <ehird> yeah cuz I'd beat you
16:02:13 <ehird> actually i'm pretty shit at reversi
16:03:08 <ehird> it does have networking
16:05:02 <ehird> damn that level 3 ai is impossible
16:05:20 <oklopol> okay i'm shit at games that are about intelligence
16:05:31 <oklopol> i'm very good at interactive games
16:06:11 <ehird> oklopol: if I set up a network game now how unlikely are you to not not accept it :-D
16:07:05 <ehird> what if I said you had no choice :-D
16:07:39 <oklopol> well i guess i can lose one game
16:07:53 <ehird> right I'm just figuring out this multiplayer thingy
16:08:05 <oklopol> okay, just tell me which button to press when you're done :)
16:10:04 <ehird> it just keeps hanging :<
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16:15:54 <provvl> what was that programming language that was way ahead of its time?
16:17:09 <ehird> oklopol: AAAAAAAAAAA
16:17:53 <provvl> no i mean from like the 70s i think
16:18:03 <ehird> lisp is from the 50s
16:18:12 <provvl> haskell and java is not
16:18:19 <ehird> oklopol was joking with java
16:18:21 <provvl> OH i remember how to find it now
16:18:26 <ehird> anyway more details?
16:18:30 <ehird> also hi have you been here before?
16:18:35 <provvl> squirrelfish has a new feature specifically pulled from this one
16:18:48 <provvl> i think polymorphic is in the name of the feature
16:18:54 <ehird> Not ringing a bell.
16:19:12 <ehird> provvl: do we mean implementation technique or language feature?
16:19:18 <ehird> squirrelfish doesn't add any language freatures
16:19:19 <provvl> implementation technique
16:19:33 <ehird> provvl: like how squirrelfish infers types as the program runs?
16:19:35 <provvl> something to do with caching
16:19:46 <provvl> sorry i might have used the wrong word
16:19:57 <ehird> I think I know what you mean
16:20:03 <ehird> or specifically what it does
16:20:06 <provvl> well it takes that concept from this old language
16:20:09 <provvl> thts way ahead of its time
16:20:12 <ehird> provvl: read the squirrelfish announcements?
16:20:21 <ehird> + squirrelfish extreme + nitro (rebranded SFE)
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16:25:29 <provvl> Polymorphic Inline Cache!
16:27:32 <ehird> but more public in the 90s
16:27:41 <ehird> The first public release was in 1990, and the next year the team moved to Sun Microsystems where they continued work on the language. Several new releases followed until falling largely dormant in 1995 with the 4.0 version. The latest 4.2 version was released in 2004 and runs on Mac OS X and Solaris.
16:28:12 <ehird> you said 70 give or take 10 years
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16:29:17 <ehird> wtf, the T-Mobile G1 (the phone running google's Android os) has a music player but no headphone jack
16:34:33 <ehird> never been in here before
16:34:41 <ehird> he just asked about one thing
16:34:51 <ehird> not entirely esolang related
16:34:52 <ehird> but programming related
16:34:56 <ehird> and language related
16:35:02 <ehird> and obscure language related
16:35:57 <ehird> http://blog.morrildl.net/2008/09/various-software-licenses-in-single.html
16:36:56 <ais523> not entirely accurate, but still funny
16:42:48 <ehird> http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/httpd-en.html
16:43:08 <ehird> I love how Forthers, whenever they see a data format, think "How can I evaluate this as Forth"?
16:43:39 <ehird> It's an apache-esque webserver with mime types, keepalive http connections,
16:43:46 <ehird> and embedded forth scripting
16:43:48 <ehird> in only a 100 or so lines
16:44:34 <ais523> Forth have obviously stolen that old Overload trick
16:44:51 <ais523> the idea was that you could run any language by changing the syntax of Overload to emulate that language
16:45:19 <ehird> forth does it much simpler
16:45:22 <ehird> they just define words
16:45:30 <ais523> well, Overload just defined characters
16:45:35 <ehird> they only hack the parser if they absolutely cannot wrangle it to start with a word and a space
16:45:45 <ehird> (because with a word and a space you can read arbitrary characters/words)
16:45:57 <ehird> (if it starts with @@<anything>, gotta hack the parser, though)
16:49:47 <ehird> I love especially how that article end with how it's much too long
16:51:33 <ais523> ehird: is that entire article written in literate Forth?
16:51:50 <ehird> ais523: no such thing, it's just html with forth snippets :P
16:51:56 <ais523> what do you mean no such thing
16:51:57 <ehird> literate programming involves rearranging code, BTW
16:52:03 <ehird> so it's not literate forth
16:52:09 <ehird> ais523: it's not marked in any way
16:52:12 <ehird> apart from html tags
16:52:17 <ais523> the HTML tags are enough, IMO
16:52:25 <ais523> even literate Haskell can use LaTeX tags
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16:53:19 <ehird> I added some whitespace in between the definitions of that and put it in a text file
16:53:29 <ehird> 180 lines of lightly-commented, well factored forth with whitespace
16:53:44 <ehird> and it's a core-of-apache clone
16:53:58 <ehird> with mimetype file parsing, a CGI-alike, error handling and keepalive connections
16:54:16 <ehird> if only you could read it.
16:57:02 <ehird> : test DOES> ." Hello, world!" ; ok
16:57:05 <ehird> foo Hello, world! ok
16:57:12 <ehird> if you interpret the word, it d oes nothing
16:57:14 <ehird> put it in a definition?
17:09:06 <ehird> uuencode should have an option to make lines 80 characters
17:10:15 <AnMaster> ehird, hm about forth web server, I haven't had time to read that fully and I know almost no forth... What about security. How easy would it be to trick the web server into running something esle
17:10:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I think it runs in a restricted vocab.
17:10:56 <AnMaster> you mean somewhat like a perl sandbox or such
17:19:38 <ehird> My editor cannot handle selecting 2000 lines in one go very well.
17:19:41 <ais523> anyway, by populat demand: http://filebin.ca/kfseue/ais52308_1.xml
17:19:50 <ais523> I wrote Pong in Enigma
17:20:04 <ais523> ehird: C-space C-u 2000 <down>
17:20:12 <ehird> yes, vim can do that too
17:20:16 <ehird> but I'm not using vim
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17:20:27 <ais523> or is that a lowercase v?
17:20:43 <ehird> (for 2 lines down)
17:21:43 * ehird ^space Enigma enter
17:22:07 <ehird> ais523: mine searches.
17:22:10 <ehird> needs better controls
17:22:11 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I have ais52301_1.xml ais52304_1.xml ais52306_1.xml ais52308_1.xml here
17:22:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I released 7 as well
17:22:31 <ais523> and yes, the rest aren't completed
17:22:47 <ehird> ais523: with better controls and a ball that acts more like a pong ball it'll be brilliant
17:23:06 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/eeephv/ais52307_1.xml
17:23:16 <ais523> ehird: I know, it could do with improvement
17:23:25 <ais523> the AI's good but not perfect, after all you have to be able to win somehow
17:23:31 <ehird> ais523: yeah, like not losing totally every time you get hit? :-)
17:23:46 <ais523> what do you mean by that?
17:23:48 <AnMaster> those controls just doesn't work well indeed
17:23:59 <ehird> ais523: every time the AI hits you, all your progress is lost
17:24:07 <ais523> but in easy, you only have to win 3 times in a row
17:24:30 <ais523> and in hard, you also only have to win 3 times, but you have to win towards the top half of the map or it doesn't count
17:24:47 <ais523> how is the ball different from a pong ball, anyway?
17:24:58 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't manage the control in that pong level
17:25:01 <ehird> ais523: when your bat hits it, it sort of curves
17:25:03 <ehird> instead of whacking
17:25:21 <ais523> ehird: whacking's easier but much less playable, as you can't determine the angle the ball comes back at
17:26:15 <AnMaster> ais523, what mouse speed thingy do you use for that pong level
17:26:42 <ais523> AnMaster: why the ice, so the ball can go across it without stopping, but you have friction
17:26:46 <ais523> there's a pin in your inventory
17:26:51 <ais523> and you have 5 times standard mouseforce
17:26:55 <ais523> so it works like standard floor
17:27:16 <ais523> I could multiply the mouseforce up higher, or you can adjust it by hand using left and right
17:27:25 <AnMaster> ais523, but what mouse force setting do you use, I usually use 2 or 3 for most levels
17:27:37 <ais523> no wonder you're no good at the fast level
17:27:46 <ais523> and 9 is the default as well, AFAIR
17:27:48 <AnMaster> then I just bounce around randomly in pong level
17:28:05 <ais523> moving large objects always is tricky in Enigma
17:28:39 <AnMaster> ais523, that's unplayable for me, I do not have that fast reaction time
17:28:51 <ais523> AnMaster: well, pong's all about fast reaction time
17:28:55 <ais523> you mean, the level's too difficult
17:28:56 <AnMaster> I just end up bouncing around randomly
17:29:11 <ais523> how do you do levels like DownDown or Magic Triangle with a mouseforce that low?
17:29:35 <AnMaster> ais523, well maybe, I don't know. But I played pong and handled it fine, but with the ball bouncing back and forth thus moving it up and down in the same spot: unplayable
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17:30:04 <ais523> so what you really want is all Enigma levels to be easy?
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17:30:19 <AnMaster> ais523, well I like the bf one for example
17:30:28 <ais523> that one's kind-of weird
17:30:32 <ais523> do you like my nim level?
17:30:41 <ais523> actually, you might like _07
17:30:49 <ais523> that doesn't require speed at all
17:32:06 <AnMaster> well I don't know the rules of nim, but it was obvious how to solve it on easy, I guess it is less pointless easy on the normal difficulty mode.
17:32:20 <ais523> easy is the two-player mode
17:32:25 <ais523> you're meant to play it against another human
17:32:29 <ais523> I put it in just because I could
17:32:57 <ehird> trap "foo" blah blah
17:33:03 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think about that level where there are hidden switches under the grass that activate the coloured stones and you have to navigate a hidden maze to activate them
17:33:05 <ehird> so that when bar makes the signal it gets trapped?
17:33:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I loved that level for example
17:33:15 <ais523> AnMaster: I hate that sort of level
17:33:29 <ais523> because it's just about finding things out, rather than intelligence
17:33:33 <ehird> AnMaster: because it doesn't require intelligence, just dumb persistence?
17:33:36 <ehird> that's not rewarding
17:33:43 <ais523> I prefer levels to have all the information you need on-screen
17:33:51 <ais523> or at least easy to deduce by experimentation
17:33:58 <ais523> unless it's randomized and it's a memory level, then that's OK
17:33:59 <AnMaster> ais523, so you never played nethack while wearing a blindfold? I haven't managed to ascend that one yet but I did get down to castle with it.
17:34:18 <ais523> AnMaster: I haven't played Zen, but that's rather different, the whole point is that you have ways to do things
17:34:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I solved it by making a map on paper.
17:34:37 <ais523> e.g. a hidden maze full of death items, plus a way to get glasses so you can see it, that's fine
17:35:09 <AnMaster> a pitty that hidden maze level wasn't random every time
17:35:15 <AnMaster> would have made it much more interesting
17:35:56 <ais523> let's see... 1, 4, 6, 7, 8 are finished (although 8 could probably do with improvements, I'm not sure how)
17:36:05 <ais523> 5 is sort-of finished, but I don't really like it
17:36:10 <ais523> I'll paste it anyway if anyone's interested
17:36:16 <ais523> and 2 and 3 are missing AIs
17:36:24 <ais523> AnMaster: I'll paste it so you can look
17:36:38 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/txvcq/ais52305_1.xml
17:37:02 <AnMaster> "burn your bridges" it seems like the new one in the auto dir
17:37:23 <ais523> if you can't outrun a fire, what can you do?
17:37:54 <AnMaster> ais523, that's trying to think under short time limit, I guess I could do it, have done some such, but it isn't anything I enjoy
17:38:12 <ais523> well, after trying to get that level working, I've decided not to mess with fire in Enigma again
17:38:14 <AnMaster> new campaign merged with mainline
17:38:17 <ais523> it's just much more trouble than it's worth
17:38:30 <AnMaster> if you are tracking wesnoth trunk
17:38:41 <AnMaster> I don't remember if you were doing that
17:38:47 <ais523> I'm not, I'll wait for the new release to be packaged
17:38:55 <ais523> probably at the end of the month with the next version of Ubuntu
17:39:13 <AnMaster> that sounds like an odd co-incidence
17:39:24 <AnMaster> I mean, this version feels rather unstable currently at least.
17:39:34 <ais523> AnMaster: the latest /release/ of Wesnoth
17:39:45 <ais523> which was a couple of weeks ago, and added a new campaign but not the one you're talking about now
17:39:54 <AnMaster> ais523, well the last release of it (1.6 atm iirc) doesn't have this campaign
17:40:02 <ais523> yes, but it has one that isn't in 1.5
17:40:07 <AnMaster> the campaign I talked about was added yesterday or so
17:40:16 <ais523> AnMaster: are you not listening to what I'm saying
17:40:30 <AnMaster> but I guess we are talking about different things
17:40:53 <AnMaster> I was saying, that unless 1.7 is released by end of month it is unlikely the new ubuntu version will include it.
17:41:20 <AnMaster> and the one that was new in 1.6, iirc it was great
17:41:28 <AnMaster> if it is the one I'm thinking about
17:41:36 <ais523> yes, I mean I only have the ones in 1.5 atm, so I'm getting a new one but not the one you were talking about earlier
17:41:40 <ais523> also, what's so good about epic?
17:41:47 <AnMaster> like say, Northen rebirth or Under the burning sun
17:41:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I just like that style of campaigns
17:42:09 <ais523> I care mostly about the battles than the plot
17:42:13 <ais523> I can get the plot by sourcereading
17:42:17 <ehird> what's the sh(1) syntax for <<EOF but without interpolation
17:42:21 <AnMaster> ais523, oh it had some interesting stuff for that too
17:42:37 <ais523> if you quote the end-of-heredoc marker, the stuff in between gets quoted the same way
17:42:58 <ais523> just some of the Wesnoth campaigns are too difficult for me atm, I'm not actually very good at Wesnoth
17:42:58 <AnMaster> ais523, in other news it seems wesnoth also use lua now as well as it's own odd DSL, I don't know for how long it did this
17:43:01 <ais523> even though it's a good game
17:43:14 <AnMaster> it might have been for ages and I just missed it
17:45:34 * ehird almost has a script that takes a forth file and produces a sh-binary
17:45:36 <AnMaster> ais523, personally I'm hoping Invasion from unknown gets mainlined at some point, I played it (needs wesnoth trunk sadly, and is rather buggy in parts atm) but is vast. Takes place after the fall (so great epic-potential there, as well as rather interesting battles, though it need some more work in that area)
17:45:40 <ehird> of course, it's platform-specific, so not very useful
17:46:00 <ais523> platform-specific in what way?
17:46:05 <ais523> does it generate nonportable sh?
17:46:13 <ehird> it embeds the gforth binary
17:46:34 <ehird> AnMaster: sh-binary: a sh with uuencoded blocks that uudecodes them then runs theem
17:47:07 <ehird> ais523: oh god that bridges one
17:47:42 <ais523> ehird: I don't really like it either
17:47:53 <ais523> it's annoying in lots of ways, annoying to play, it was annoying to make too
17:48:10 <ais523> I more or less abandoned it, but given that it is completable I think I may as well paste it just in case someone sees some merit in it eventually
17:49:42 <ehird> uudecode: stdin: no "begin" line
17:49:53 <ehird> echo "$GFORTH" | uudecode -o "$GFORTH_LOC" || exit 255
17:49:54 <AnMaster> ais523, that new one in 1.6 is "intermediate" btw, the new one in 1.7 is "novice". So far I played through 3 of it's 24 scenarios. It seems good. Too early to tell if it is "great".
17:49:54 <ehird> echo "$IMAGE" | uudecode -o "$IMAGE_LOC" || exit 255
17:56:51 <ehird> enigma 1.01 new #39, City Life
17:57:14 <ais523> I haven't done that one, but it's interesting
18:07:31 <ehird> http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1490956462 freedom--
18:08:26 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
18:08:41 <ais523> ehird: Red Hat and Fedora still exist, you know
18:08:50 <ehird> ais523: I know, I just don't know why :-
18:10:09 <ehird> i'll have you know I used to be a baby and I have been awesome all my life
18:10:19 <ehird> also, I program babies minds
18:10:21 <ehird> they are my slaves.
18:12:32 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:13:08 <ehird> code a new language
18:15:03 <ais523> psygnisfive: write a Forte interp
18:15:19 <ehird> ais523: that's easy peasy
18:15:52 <ais523> I'm the only person who's managed it so far
18:16:07 <ais523> I'm slightly surprised there aren't more, so either Forte is deceptively difficult, or nobody was bothered
18:16:10 <ais523> although I know oerjan tried and failed
18:16:18 <ehird> I tried and gave up out of boredom
18:16:32 <ehird> Here, I'll write one in Python/Ruby or some other lowest common denominator.
18:18:14 <psygnisfive> the would require that i know what forte is.
18:18:22 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/forte
18:18:39 <ehird> psygnisfive: why not
18:19:54 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:21:20 <ais523> I don't trust food that's been sent over wireless
18:21:23 <ais523> it could have got all sorts of corrupted
18:22:01 <ehird> All whitespace, apart from newlines and whitespace inside strings
18:22:04 <ehird> what, so "R EM" works?
18:22:27 <ehird> ais523: can you escape in strings with \
18:22:40 <ehird> ais523: how do you print "?
18:23:45 <ehird> ais523: wait, if 8 = 4 and 2 = 3, is 82 = 43?
18:23:57 <ais523> it only operates on numbers, not their decimal representations
18:24:14 <ais523> but yes, you use PUT to output characters that don't fit in strings
18:24:22 <ehird> right okay, this should be easy
18:25:10 <ehird> well, apart from string parsing, have to specialcase not filtering that
18:25:14 <ehird> (I'm parsing with a loop and regex :-D)
18:25:42 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
18:27:43 <psygnisfive> how are you managing to parse tree structures with a regex?
18:28:02 <ais523> psygnisfive: never heard of recursive regices?
18:28:18 * ais523 concludes that as regex is an abbreviation anyway, it's correct to use any pseudo-Latin plural you want to
18:28:28 <psygnisfive> ive never heard of a regular express that has non-star recursion.
18:29:22 <ehird> actually I think I will lex
18:29:26 <ehird> to avoid killign myself
18:32:35 * ehird switches to haskell.
18:32:43 <ehird> ais523: the main issue is the syntax :P
18:33:05 <ehird> Judofyr: it's not _hard_
18:33:08 <psygnisfive> whats so complicated about this syntax, ehird
18:33:13 <ehird> without a proper parser
18:34:14 <psygnisfive> i should probably write a generic parser thing for my little experiments.
18:34:46 <ais523> we'lre mostly everything guys
18:34:53 <ais523> I'm probably the most C person here, or possibly AnMaster is
18:34:58 <ais523> but I do high-level stuff too
18:35:07 <Judofyr> well, I haven't touched C at allβ¦
18:36:31 <Judofyr> I'm a Ruby guy (probably the most boring one here)
18:36:42 <ais523> ruby's less boring than Python
18:37:01 <AnMaster> ais523, "It is called Forte due to the mess it makes of the Peano postulates" <-- AUGH!
18:37:18 <Judofyr> still, http://judofyr.net/posts/morse.html
18:37:33 <Judofyr> and http://judofyr.net/posts/morse.html
18:37:55 <ais523> AnMaster: am I not allowed a truly hideous pun now and again?
18:38:04 <Judofyr> and http://judofyr.net/posts/tribute.html :P
18:38:20 <AnMaster> ais523, well, it was oerjan quality.
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18:40:00 <ehird> resolveInteger :: Universe -> Integer -> Integer
18:40:01 <ehird> resolveInteger u i | res == i = i
18:40:02 <ehird> | otherwise = resolveInteger u res
18:40:04 <ehird> where res = Map.findWithDefault i i u
18:40:06 <ehird> haskell is so pretty
18:41:26 <ehird> i love how you can condition on whether to enter the body using stuff that's meant to be calculated inthe body
18:42:55 <ehird> ais523: I take it (N/0) is undefinde
18:43:00 <ehird> unless 0 is Βedefined that is
18:43:36 <Deewiant> Why would you press option there accidentally
18:43:38 * ehird makes undefined programs output "Demons fly out of your nose, washing the Windows API."
18:46:28 <AnMaster> ais523, Forte does seem easy to implement, if you know about lexers (I suck at them).
18:46:43 <AnMaster> ais523, but I think the example has a bug, not 100% sure
18:47:10 <AnMaster> shouldn't that be: 172 LET 174=95
18:47:11 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not the lexing that's the hard part I think, but the maths
18:47:26 <ehird> you just recursively lookup every integer, then lookup the result
18:47:29 <AnMaster> ais523, just copy the value of the relevant variable
18:48:18 <AnMaster> this would be as easy in a high level language like python as a dict with mappings or such I think.
18:48:32 <ehird> type Universe = Map Integer Integer
18:49:28 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what about that possible bug
18:49:43 <AnMaster> I might just have confused things and 114 was redefined before
18:49:51 <ais523> AnMaster: but 114 and 174 are the /same number/ at that point
18:49:59 <ais523> redefinitions are transitive
18:50:19 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I never said I was a good interpreter for it
18:51:44 <ehird> *Main> evalExpr emptyUniverse (Div (Const 2) (Const 0))
18:51:44 <ehird> *** Exception: Demons fly out of your nose, washing the Windows API.
18:52:12 <ais523> ehird: you got my sig wrong
18:52:23 <ais523> <ais523> <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api
18:52:24 <fungot> ais523: just a harmless comment? :p
18:52:36 <ehird> I think I prefer my version :P
18:52:45 <oklopol> fungot: just funny that's all
18:52:46 <fungot> oklopol: hello everyone :) usage: sad!code have fun!!
18:52:48 <ais523> without the windows reference to start with it makes no sense
18:52:56 <AnMaster> <ais523> <ais523> <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api <-- recursive quote yay
18:52:57 <fungot> AnMaster: i'm not implying anything about perl... that, and whenever i go to university
18:53:10 <ais523> <AnMaster> <ais523> <ais523> <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api <-- recursive quote yay <--- why?
18:53:10 * AnMaster waits for someone to comment on his comment on it
18:53:12 <fungot> ais523: and it doesn't change the _current_ handler. no wonder that it turned out
18:53:13 <ehird> ais523: Naw, I got a psychedelic image of demons flying out of your nose to a window coloured like the windows logo, which they then wash
18:53:17 <fizzie> fungot: You are being awfully coherent today.
18:53:17 <AnMaster> * AnMaster waits for someone to comment on his comment on it
18:53:17 <AnMaster> <ais523> <AnMaster> <ais523> <ais523> <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api <-- recursive quote yay <--- why?
18:53:17 <fungot> fizzie: not without extra definitions for stalin is this: if v is an n-dimensional inner product space has an orthonormal basis v_1,..., the calls to, log, sqrt, we have the kernel be the glass interpreter... brilliant.
18:53:18 <fungot> AnMaster: i'm a very slow mail client in python :) yes fnord/ writings/ bignums.ps will be forced to disagree)
18:53:20 <ehird> ais523: Naw, I got a psychedelic image of demons flying out of your nose to a window coloured like the windows logo, which they then wash
18:53:27 <ehird> fungot's a very slow mail client in python
18:53:27 <fungot> ehird: you wouldn't happen to be a newer version than my netbsd box
18:53:49 <ais523> ehird: are you a newer version than fungot's netbsd box?
18:53:51 <fungot> ais523: help!! i'll have to write some stuff in common-scheme, and some stuff to crunch...)
18:53:57 <Deewiant> ehird: I'd write that as resolveInteger u i = maybe i (resolveInteger u) (Map.lookup i u)
18:54:08 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, nice
18:54:19 <ehird> my evalExpr is kind of ugly, meh
18:54:22 <AnMaster> <ais523> <AnMaster> <ais523> <ais523> <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api <-- recursive quote yay <--- why" <-- why not
18:54:22 <Deewiant> It's still a bit ugly, it refers to itself
18:54:23 <fungot> AnMaster: they have nothing worth listening to.
18:54:33 <ehird> *Main> evalExpr (Map.fromList [(1,7),(64,2)]) (Div (Const 2) (Const 64))
18:54:50 <ehird> he's being annoying
18:54:51 <ehird> and trying to avoid ?
18:54:56 <ehird> and failing at it by encoding wrongly
18:55:14 <ehird> Damn that's funny and intentional
18:55:17 <ehird> (may be ', I forget)
18:55:20 <fizzie> Maybe it was a quostion and not a question.
18:55:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: " and ? are on opposite sides of the kb, that makes no sense.
18:55:31 <oklopol> psygnisfive: the hello world?
18:55:43 <oklopol> i can give you a tutorial if you need one
18:55:50 <psygnisfive> a tree drawing utility for my honors thesis
18:56:19 <oklopol> by that do you mean like a binary tree data structure?
18:56:29 <oklopol> that's a bit hard man, you'll never succeed
18:56:50 <oklopol> n-ary 8| WTH man get outta here!
18:56:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:57:18 <oklopol> oerjan: i burned my tongue because my coffee is too hot
18:57:23 <ais523> ok, who made an Enigma Sokoban level with invisible blocks?
18:57:28 <oklopol> just fyi, don't tell the others
18:58:30 <oerjan> oklopol: i sometimes bite my lip when eating and stressed. please don't pass on.
18:58:56 <oklopol> oerjan: i'll keep that between me.
18:59:06 <ais523> AnMaster: it has an easy mode where you can see them
18:59:12 <oerjan> darn almost did it again
18:59:28 <ehird> "INPUT. This works like LET, except that the redefinition of the number is taken from the input, not from an expression. The expression gives the number to redefine. "
18:59:30 <ehird> ais523: separator?
18:59:40 <ais523> ehird: I intended newline
18:59:41 <ehird> what happens if input starts with non-digit
18:59:49 <ais523> but it's not as if you can safely put INPUT in a program anyway, it's like gets
18:59:51 <Deewiant> ehird: \u -> fst . until (isNothing.snd) (((,) <*> flip Map.lookup u) . fromJust . snd) . ap (,) Just
19:00:05 <ehird> Deewiant: you know what?
19:00:12 <ais523> and if input starts with non-digit, pritn "Redo from start" and input again
19:00:48 <Deewiant> ehird: That one's less efficient probably though, since it constructs tuples
19:00:59 <oerjan> ehird: what you don't think that was obvious? *duck*
19:01:48 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
19:01:53 <ehird> ais523: can I pick something other than "Redo from start?
19:02:10 <ais523> I was trying to parody traditional BASIC with that
19:02:16 <oerjan> if i made a comic it would be a stick figure one
19:02:21 <ais523> because that is the actual error message, and it's useless
19:02:27 <oerjan> since i cannot really draw, especially people
19:03:10 <oerjan> and also, i am much too perfectionist to make a stick figure comic
19:03:20 <oklopol> well umm make a blob comic
19:03:30 <oerjan> which is one reason why i rarely finish anything, ever :/
19:04:21 <oklopol> also i'm very lazy, but i guess so are you.
19:04:31 <oerjan> that would be another reason :D
19:05:02 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:05:04 <ehird> "END. This causes the program to end. If this isn't given, the program enters an infinite loop rather than ending."
19:05:07 <ehird> you mean it starts from the beginning
19:05:09 <ehird> or just sits there?
19:05:41 <ais523> basically, all line numbers that aren't used contain NOPs
19:05:45 <ais523> and it runs them off to infinity
19:05:55 <oerjan> on second thought i _might_ be able to draw ducks :D
19:06:09 <oerjan> animals are easier than people
19:06:14 <ehird> all I need now is the main loop
19:06:28 <ehird> 69 lines so far, including whitespace and readability
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19:09:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:10:17 <ehird> *Main> u <- execCommand emptyUniverse (Let (Const 9) (Const 7))
19:10:17 <ehird> *Main> execCommand u (PrintE (Mul (Const 6) (Const 9)) True)
19:10:24 <ehird> why is this hard again?
19:10:45 <ais523> does it work for indirect redefinitions too?
19:11:05 <ais523> for instance, LET 3 = 5 : LET 12 = (1 + 2) + 4
19:11:10 <ais523> that should set 12 = 9
19:11:47 <ais523> also, LET 3 = 5 : LET 3 = 4 should set 5 to 4
19:11:47 <oerjan> <AnMaster> forte in forte sounds hard
19:11:48 <ehird> *Main> u <- execCommand emptyUniverse (Let (Const 3) (Const 5))
19:11:48 <ehird> *Main> execCommand u (Let (Const 12) (Add (Add (Const 1) (Const 2)) (Const 4)))
19:11:50 <ehird> fromList [(3,5),(12,9)]
19:11:56 <ehird> ais523: so hard :-P
19:12:16 <ehird> *Main> u <- execCommand emptyUniverse (Let (Const 3) (Const 5))
19:12:16 <ehird> *Main> execCommand u (Let (Const 3) (Const 4))
19:12:18 <ehird> fromList [(3,5),(5,4)]
19:12:26 <ais523> it should be [(3,4),(5,4)]
19:12:28 <oerjan> hm maybe if you divided integers according to moduli wrt some number
19:12:49 <ais523> because I just set 3 to 4, it should be 4 not 5
19:12:52 <ehird> sir, that's retarded.
19:13:03 <ehird> ais523: that's just the internal data structure
19:13:08 <ehird> ais523: when you do the lookup of 3
19:13:11 <oerjan> so that some numbers were guaranteed not to be messed up
19:13:15 <ehird> since it sees that 5 is defined
19:13:26 <ais523> ehird: that's the important point, you've probably got it right then
19:13:27 <ehird> it makes things easier
19:13:30 <ehird> resolveInteger :: Universe -> Integer -> Integer
19:13:31 <ehird> resolveInteger u i = maybe i (resolveInteger u) (Map.lookup i u)
19:13:32 <ehird> replaceInteger :: Universe -> Integer -> Integer -> Universe
19:13:34 <ehird> replaceInteger u i j = Map.insert i j u
19:15:17 <ehird> "Whenever a command finishes, the command with the next lowest number is run, even if that command has run earlier. "
19:15:21 <ehird> resolve all line numbers
19:15:30 <ehird> that does one line over and over
19:15:33 <ehird> your semantics are shaky
19:15:48 <ehird> resolve all line numbers, keep track of last line number, condition on > last
19:15:51 <Deewiant> "next lowest" seems quite clear
19:16:22 <ais523> you pick the lowest that's higher than the current one
19:16:22 <ehird> "condition on > last"
19:16:32 <oerjan> ehird: when i as usual overengineered my forte interpreter (in haskell too) to the point of never getting anywhere, i pondered how to shorten chains of numbers automatically
19:17:37 <oerjan> so that long-running programs shouldn't slow down
19:18:14 <ehird> is this an error or is 10=
19:18:17 <ehird> or even more complex
19:18:26 <ais523> oerjan: the wimpode Thutu interp does automatic shortening
19:18:39 <ais523> it says so in the article, IIRC
19:19:02 <ehird> execCommand . snd . head . sortBy (\(a,_) (b,_) -> a <=> b) . toList . Map.filter (> l) . Map.map (resolveInteger u) $ p
19:19:18 <ehird> that doesn't handle undefinedies
19:19:39 <Deewiant> Assuming <=> = compare, anyway
19:19:46 <Deewiant> If not, sortBy ((<=>) `on` fst)
19:20:14 <ehird> [] -> let x = x in x
19:20:16 <Deewiant> ehird: And instead of head . sortBy, minimumBy
19:20:22 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah but I'm casing on [] now
19:20:24 <ehird> so I can't do that
19:21:16 <oerjan> ehird: let x = x in x will probably halt with <loop> error in ghc, not really loop
19:21:44 <oerjan> you need to trick ghc's autodetection
19:21:58 <oklopol> are you sure it's possible?!?!?
19:22:15 <oerjan> let f n = f (n+1) in f 1 should do it
19:22:16 <oklopol> wait did that get old already.
19:22:46 <oklopol> well. maybe some coffee, for some reason my cup keeps emptying
19:24:01 <ehird> Deewiant: where's "comparing"
19:24:15 <Deewiant> ehird: Ask lambdabot or hoogle? Data.Ord
19:24:16 <oerjan> or so i hope - that's something a strictness analyzer could probably detect
19:26:48 * ehird realises that mapWithKeys doesn't let you change the key
19:29:09 <ehird> prints 42 and hangs
19:29:19 <ehird> Asztal_: I didn't need a map after all
19:29:30 <ehird> TODO: parser, command line interface
19:30:42 <ehird> with : the second part doesn't get its own line right?
19:30:54 <ais523> the second part just runs after the first part does
19:31:33 <oklopol> what's the biggest real number you know *without googling*?
19:31:52 <ais523> oklopol: fixed point 2 is pretty large, there are much larger though
19:32:02 <ehird> it is a very real number
19:32:05 <ehird> forte [(100110,Let (Const 110) (Add (Const 110) (Const 3)))
19:32:05 <ehird> ,(109,Let (Const 100110), (Const 108))
19:32:07 <ais523> I assume fixed point 3 is larger
19:32:07 <ehird> ,(110,Do (PrintS "Looping..." True) (Let (Const 108) (Add (Const 108) (Const 3))))]
19:32:10 <ehird> let's see if this works
19:32:33 <ehird> ais523: "Looping..." forever.
19:32:34 <ehird> That's right is it not
19:32:36 <oklopol> ais523: what kind of fixed point are we talking about?
19:32:52 <ais523> ehird: shouldn't be forever, IIRC
19:32:57 <ehird> Indeed it gets slower and slower
19:32:58 <ais523> if that's all you have in your loop
19:33:04 <ehird> I'll make some elimination stuff
19:33:06 <ehird> ais523: yours -- it's your program
19:33:07 <ais523> oklopol: doesn't get substantially larger even if you Ackermann it
19:33:53 <ais523> line 172 is meant to end it
19:33:57 <ais523> but you didn't put it in there
19:34:00 <oerjan> i guess it will have to slow down some just due to the map growing
19:34:24 <oklopol> ehird: ais523's was bigger
19:34:31 <ehird> This outputs 77, followed by 462. This sort of thing is why bracketing is compulsory in Forte. The line shows that non-newline whitespace is ignored (for technical reasons, there are no form feeds, tabs, or vertical tabs in the above line, but there could be and the line would still work).
19:34:35 <ehird> 100110 LET 110=110+3
19:34:37 <ehird> 109 LET 100110=108
19:34:39 <ehird> 110 PRINT "Looping...": LET 108=108+3
19:34:41 <ehird> This prints the output
19:34:43 <ehird> yeah i totally see the 172
19:35:04 <ais523> ehird: I mean, my example had a line 172, which broke the loop
19:35:10 <ehird> This outputs 77, followed by 462. This sort of thing is why bracketing is compulsory in Forte. The line shows that non-newline whitespace is ignored (for technical reasons, there are no form feeds, tabs, or vertical tabs in the above line, but there could be and the line would still work).
19:35:10 <ais523> you didn't put line 172 in your example
19:35:13 <ehird> 100110 LET 110=110+3
19:35:15 <ehird> 109 LET 100110=108
19:35:16 <ais523> so the loop doesn't break in your case
19:35:17 <ehird> 110 PRINT "Looping...": LET 108=108+3
19:35:19 <ehird> This prints the output
19:35:21 <ais523> ehird: it's all one big program
19:35:21 <ehird> that is a DIRECT QUOTE
19:35:23 <ehird> from YOUR WIKI PAGE
19:35:33 <ais523> 172 LET 114=95 is the line that terminates the loop
19:35:38 <ais523> what, have you never seen literate Forte before?
19:36:13 <ais523> <Forte wiki page> All the examples here are part of one long program.
19:37:04 <oklopol> well it is a bit confusing if you don't actually read the intermission texts
19:37:37 <ehird> Darn I introduced a bug
19:38:05 <ehird> oklopol: ololololol
19:38:13 <ehird> ais523: now it runs in constantness!
19:38:18 <ehird> resolveInteger :: Universe -> Integer -> Integer
19:38:19 <ehird> resolveInteger u i = Map.findWithDefault i i u
19:38:21 <ehird> replaceInteger :: Universe -> Integer -> Integer -> Universe
19:38:23 <ehird> replaceInteger u i j = Map.insert i j . Map.fromList . map eliminate . Map.toList $ u
19:38:25 <ehird> where eliminate (a,b) = (elim a,elim b)
19:38:27 <ehird> elim x | x == i = j
19:38:29 <ehird> elim x | otherwise = x
19:39:00 <oklopol> ehird: usually when it's that bad, i don't expect you to laugh, but to answer. not that it's a good excuse, but anyway.
19:39:05 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:39:14 <ehird> forte [(0,PrintE (Const 2) True)
19:39:15 <ehird> ,(1,Let (Const 2) (Add (Const 2) (Const 1)))]
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19:39:20 <ehird> ais523: that hangs
19:39:36 <ehird> it hangs after printing 2
19:40:03 <oklopol> hangs because you don't loop?
19:40:20 <ehird> forte [(0,PrintE (Const 4) True)
19:40:20 <ehird> ,(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1)))
19:40:22 <ehird> ,(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))]
19:40:24 <ehird> that prints 4 then hangs
19:40:57 <ehird> which differs post-loop
19:41:02 <ais523> I'm working out what actually happens, not what your program says
19:41:03 <ehird> it should go on to 3
19:41:19 <ehird> post-resolving, it'll come to
19:41:24 <ehird> and it'll look for >2
19:41:24 <ais523> then go onto 4, which is 5, and infiniloop because it's fallen off the end
19:41:37 <ehird> I need to print twice
19:42:11 <ehird> [(0,PrintE (Const 4) True),(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1))),(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))]
19:42:15 <ehird> [(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1))),(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))]
19:42:17 <ehird> [(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))]
19:42:19 <oklopol> so setting a number to another, A=B, means all instances of A seen later on, are turned into B's?
19:42:33 <ehird> oklopol: yes, and if 2=3, then 1+1=3
19:42:51 <oerjan> assuming 1 is not changed
19:43:14 <ehird> ([(0,PrintE (Const 4) True),(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1))),(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))],[(0,PrintE (Const 4) True),(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1))),(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))],[(0,PrintE (Const 4) True),(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1))),(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))])
19:43:18 <ehird> ([(0,PrintE (Const 4) True),(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1))),(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))],[(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1))),(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))],[(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1))),(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))])
19:43:20 <oklopol> i was just wondering about the direction of assignment
19:43:22 <ehird> ([(0,PrintE (Const 4) True),(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1))),(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))],[(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))],[(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))])
19:43:25 <ehird> ([(0,PrintE (Const 4) True),(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1))),(2,Let (Const 3) (Const 0))],[],[]) {{Forever}}
19:43:29 <oklopol> it's quite intuitive how the actual evaluation goes
19:43:41 <ehird> (line numbers looked up,line numbers greater than last one,sorted by line number)
19:43:59 <ehird> the problem is that it isn't resolving
19:44:19 <ehird> it fixes the line numbers
19:44:23 <ehird> but only existing ones that are redefined
19:44:46 <ehird> and the bestest thing?
19:44:49 <ehird> can't think of a good fix.
19:45:28 <oerjan> um how is that incorrect?
19:45:31 <ais523> I told you it wasn't as easy as it looked
19:46:00 <ehird> oerjan: because 3 = 0
19:46:03 <ehird> therefore 3 is defined
19:46:05 <ehird> and it's the same as 0
19:46:09 <ehird> therefore when we go on to 3
19:46:34 <ehird> i -could- go over every line, even undefined ones, but then if your first number is huge it'll take ages to get there
19:46:38 <oerjan> um you need to change the line numbers in the actual program, i would think
19:46:39 <ais523> you want to set 0 = 3, don't you
19:46:42 <ehird> is look up the line number, somehow
19:47:10 <ais523> then you look for a line numbered 3, and there isn't one
19:47:12 <ais523> because 3 no longer exists
19:47:21 <ais523> so you go on to looking for a line numbered 4
19:47:21 <ehird> you look for a line numbered 3 -- which is 0 -- so you look for a line numbered 0
19:47:31 <ehird> it isn't fair to let the implementation cheat the redefinition, ais523
19:47:32 <ais523> you've misunderstood the language
19:47:48 <ais523> ehird: the implementation only uses numbers that exist
19:47:48 <ehird> I just think it's worse this way
19:47:58 <ehird> it's another word for 0
19:48:01 <oerjan> ehird: for each line in the current program, look up its line number, then replace that in the program and resort
19:48:03 <ais523> 3's just a new name for 0
19:48:06 <ais523> therefore it's /lower/ than 2
19:48:14 <ais523> so the next number up from 2 is 4
19:48:27 <ehird> forte [(0,PrintE (Const 4) True)
19:48:27 <ehird> ,(1,Let (Const 4) (Add (Const 4) (Const 1)))
19:48:29 <ehird> ,(2,Let (Const 0) (Const 3))]
19:48:41 <ehird> of course, this fails.
19:48:43 <ais523> that terminates, not lopos
19:48:44 <ehird> I need to keep going up
19:48:55 <ais523> yep, that's what's expected
19:49:03 <ehird> yes, what i need is a do
19:49:16 * ais523 isn't convinced that Forte would be TC if not for :
19:49:27 <ais523> I mean, Forte without : is not obviously TC
19:49:39 <ais523> Forte with : is not /obviously/ TC either, just almost certainly is
19:50:13 <ehird> that was unintentional
19:50:19 <oerjan> without : i think you can only loop with lines that copy themselves
19:50:22 <ehird> 0 PRINT 4: LET 4=4+1: LET 0=0+1
19:51:05 <ais523> as far as I can tell, you can't do anything inside such a loop
19:51:41 <oerjan> you probably could make a set of lines that renumber each other
19:51:51 <oerjan> but each line can only renumber one line
19:51:56 <ehird> 0 PRINT 0: LET 0=0+1
19:52:00 <ehird> shouldn't this give:
19:52:14 <ehird> 0,1,2,4,8,16,32,...
19:52:32 <oerjan> so the number of "surviving lines" == number of infinitely renumbering lines
19:53:31 <oerjan> so without : you can only do a finite total number of other actions
19:53:32 <ehird> i mean, 1 never changes
19:53:36 <ehird> so 0 always increases by 1
19:53:54 <ehird> so, ais523, is me getting 0,1,2,4,8 an interp bug?
19:54:00 <oerjan> ehird: when 0 becomes 2, 1 also does
19:54:04 <ais523> ehird: that's undefined behaviour
19:54:08 <oerjan> because they are the same
19:54:16 <ais523> because you're renumbering the line you're on
19:54:29 <oerjan> once you have made two numbers equal, they stay equal
19:54:43 <oerjan> and changing one changes the other too
19:54:44 <ais523> there's no way to reclaim a number once you've redefined it
19:54:50 <ais523> and no way to make two numbers different once they're the same
19:54:53 <oklopol> heh, forte is one sick language.
19:55:18 <ehird> ais523: I love how hard it is to make a trivial counter
19:55:44 <ais523> probably it's best to convert to decimal yourself, rather than trying to use PRINT
19:56:09 <ais523> I think I decided a long time ago that any practical Thutu program would most likely leave numbers from 1 to 256 untouched so you could output them
19:56:10 <oerjan> it should work if you start with 2 instead of 0
19:56:23 <ais523> oerjan: that's cheating
19:56:40 <ais523> but I suppose you could just have a PRINT "0": PUT 10 : PRINT "1" : PUT 10
19:56:48 <ais523> oh, you don't even need the double newlines
19:57:11 <ehird> 0 PRINT "Hello, world!": LET 1=1+2
19:57:15 <oerjan> you don't need the quotes
19:57:29 <oerjan> if you print before changing anything
19:57:57 <ehird> so wait let me step through
19:59:42 <ehird> 0 PRINT "Hello, world!": LET 1=1+2
20:00:28 <ehird> ais523: I'll write a parser now.
20:00:42 <ehird> Uh, do you want to change the spec so that 1 3PR INT "Hello, world!"
20:00:52 <ehird> Just say "whitespace between _TOKENS_"
20:01:02 <ehird> oerjan: but he says it was a bug
20:01:06 <ehird> that 1 3PR INT was valid
20:01:52 <oerjan> bah, just write a lexer
20:02:04 <ehird> oerjan: no such distinction in parsec.
20:04:19 <ehird> I guess I could do a pass over it
20:05:26 <ehird> ais523: is \n\n equiv to \n
20:05:32 <ehird> it just isn't stated anywhere
20:08:16 <ehird> *Main> dewhitespace "1 3PR INT \"Hello, world!\""
20:08:16 <ehird> "13PRINT\"Hello, world!\""
20:08:45 <ehird> ais523: I estimate ~130-150 lines for the final thing
20:09:11 <ehird> ais523: well, I'm not golfing
20:09:12 <ais523> oh, Parsec is pretty verbose but easy to understand
20:09:17 <ehird> I just wrote it pretty dumbly
20:09:20 <ehird> ais523: I mean the final interp
20:09:23 <ehird> Not just the parser
20:09:45 <ehird> and I've defined data types, split things into functions, done error handling, optimization
20:09:53 <ehird> and this includes blank lines
20:10:21 * ehird open ~/.cabal/share/doc/parsec-3.0.0/html/index.html
20:10:25 <ehird> with open(1), naturally
20:10:47 <Judofyr> open(1) is the best thing about Mac
20:10:59 <ehird> s/Mac/OS X/; and, well, I wouldn't go that far
20:11:04 <ehird> There is a gnome version IIRC
20:11:22 <ais523> presumably, it's rather different from open(2)
20:11:24 <ehird> ais523: give it a URI/filepath/anything, it opens it in the right application
20:11:31 <ais523> ehird: like start in windows?
20:11:43 <ehird> open http://google.com # opens in your browser
20:11:47 <ehird> open foo.html # this too
20:11:54 <ais523> that is what start does in Windows
20:11:55 <ehird> open foo.doc # opens whatever app does word docs
20:11:57 <ais523> the command, rather than the button
20:12:06 <ehird> well it's presumably less intelligent
20:12:16 <ehird> open -a "Application Name" # opens the app in qusetion
20:12:18 <Deewiant> Windows bases it on the file extension
20:12:18 <ais523> start's just the command-line version of double-clicking, I think
20:12:22 <ehird> open -e foo # opens with TextEdit
20:12:28 <ehird> open -t foo # opens with <default editor>
20:12:29 <Deewiant> And I guess URLs have their own thing depending on the protocol
20:12:34 <ehird> open -W foo # blocks until the app finishes
20:12:39 <ehird> open -g foo # opens app in background
20:12:47 <ehird> open -f # opens stdin with textedit
20:12:49 <fizzie> URL handlers in Windows certainly are in the same place as the file extension mappingsies.
20:12:52 <ehird> -h, --header Searches header file locations for headers matching the given filenames, and opens them.
20:12:59 <ehird> β that's a bit out ofp lace
20:13:05 <ehird> but, yeah, you can combine most of those ops
20:13:32 <ehird> tl;dr open(1) opens umber of things in the right way and you can tell it just how you want it to open them
20:13:46 <ehird> s/umber/any number/
20:13:52 <ehird> fizzie: current fizzielocationupdate?
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20:14:22 <fizzie> Hotel Puustelli, Lieksa, Eastern Finland.
20:14:41 <fizzie> The only hotel in the whole city, as a matter of fact.
20:14:55 <fizzie> The "city" having about 12k inhabitants.
20:15:05 <ehird> right okay so in my brain that classifies finland as "on fizzie's train VS not on fizzie's train", it says you're not on a train. right. got it.
20:15:36 <ehird> when will you next be on a train, so I can ask you what a train is like?
20:15:46 <Deewiant> Is that north or south of Kuopio?
20:15:49 <ehird> i mean maybe finn trains are different
20:16:17 <oerjan> they probably have saunas
20:16:47 <fizzie> I go by "fizziet" when on a train, because I pay by kilobyte for the GPRS and don't want to bouncer-backlog.
20:16:47 <fizzie> Next train is on Sunday-evening (~18-23 I think) Joensuu -> home.
20:17:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think it's Norther, but not too much. It's about 100 km from Joensuu to a bit northwardy direction.
20:17:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: The hotel's Internet connection seems poor
20:17:52 <Deewiant> And alright, then I've got some kind of idea about where it is
20:17:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: How so? You mean the "just a regular DSL link" thing?
20:18:27 <Deewiant> fizzie: Three messages within one second in rapid succession and a minute later than their context
20:18:51 <fizzie> Oh. Well, the wlan's a bit laggy, yes.
20:18:53 <Deewiant> fizzie: "I go by", "Next train", and '"Hmm"?' all after "they probably have saunas"
20:19:25 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's this bouncer thing, all my connected clients answer. :p
20:19:36 <ehird> ais523: is forte CASE SENSITIVE?
20:19:37 <fizzie> You can do version too.
20:19:45 <ehird> 20:16 fizzie: I go by "fizziet" when on a train, because I pay by kilobyte for the GPRS and don't want to bouncer-backlog.
20:19:49 <ehird> fizziet is one byte more
20:19:52 <ehird> that's pretty wasteful
20:19:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, that gave *FOUR* replies
20:20:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I suppose the bouncer would reply as well
20:20:17 <ehird> 20:20 CTCP-reply VERSION from fizzie : LimeChat for OSX 0.20
20:20:17 <ehird> 20:20 CTCP-reply VERSION from fizzie : irssi v0.8.12
20:20:23 <ehird> LimeChat buddies fizzie!
20:20:33 <AnMaster> never heard of that one before
20:20:37 <fizzie> ehird: Well, I installed it because you said nice things about it.
20:20:44 <fizzie> And bip because it's in the Debian repository.
20:21:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: Looked at a map, Lieksa is pretty much directly northwards from Joensuu, and approximately as much "more North" from Kuopio than Kuopio itself is from Joensuu.
20:21:52 <Deewiant> fizzie: Sounds like where I placed it in my mind
20:22:20 <fizzie> About them bytes, my regular "using the phone itself for IRC" nick is "fizn". Not sure if I thought about bytes when choosing it, though.
20:23:25 <ais523> ehird: I don't think I ever defined whether it was case-sensitive
20:23:36 <ehird> ais523: shall we say it is?
20:23:43 <ehird> whitespace insensitive but casesensitive is funny
20:25:00 <ais523> well, the general idea is to mimic BASIC
20:25:06 <ais523> traditional BASIC is, QBASIC isn't
20:25:11 <ais523> so maybe different interps can be different about it
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20:32:41 <ais523> that shouldn't make any practical difference, though
20:32:48 <ais523> except to make things undefined when they wouldn't have been
20:44:46 <ehird> ais523: 174 lines, now to test it
20:45:04 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04] % cat>test.forte
20:45:07 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04] % ./forte test.forte
20:45:09 <ehird> Stack space overflow: current size 8388608 bytes.
20:45:11 <ehird> Use `+RTS -Ksize' to increase it.
20:45:24 <ehird> That's so debuggable.
20:46:06 <ehird> Deewiant: know how to get a stacktrace out of that?
20:46:32 <ehird> I don't handle colon-newline-negation
20:46:45 <ehird> ais523: does colon always negate newlines?
20:46:47 <ehird> that's fucked. up.
20:46:59 <Deewiant> ehird: With laziness, the operation doesn't really make sense
20:47:06 <Deewiant> The GHCi debugger can do some things
20:49:25 <ehird> how does that parse?
20:50:08 <ais523> I'd say a : only cancels out one newline
20:50:20 <ais523> and 10 REM Foo: 20 A just has 20 A as part of the comment
20:50:35 <ehird> do char ':'; many (char '\n'); anyChar <|> anyChar
20:50:38 <ehird> which would have made
20:50:49 <ehird> I have to do it COMPLICATEY
20:50:50 <ais523> oh, maybe that's better
20:50:59 <ehird> : just cancels a newline
20:51:17 <oerjan> ehird: leaving out many is complicatey? :D
20:51:32 <ehird> nothing to do with that
20:51:41 <ehird> ais523: what about
20:51:52 <ehird> does that wait for the next command?
20:52:07 <ais523> "wait for the next command"?
20:53:03 <ehird> ais523: in the input stream.
20:53:32 <ais523> ehird: you compile the whole program
20:53:39 <ais523> you stop reading at EOF
20:53:43 <ehird> Thaaaank you captain obvious.
20:53:48 <ais523> I don't think a : can cancel out EOF, that would be ridiculous
20:53:48 <ehird> When the parser sees
20:54:09 <ehird> if it's the latter, then REM's : handling differs from everyone else's
20:54:11 <ehird> which is ridiculos
20:54:13 <ais523> I don't think there's an "official" line
20:54:19 <ais523> but probably the former
20:54:21 <ehird> I'm asking you to make one :P
20:54:32 <ehird> I was gonna go for the latter
20:54:36 <ehird> to make it more whitespace-lenient
20:55:08 <ehird> Deewiant: so how do you debug a stack overflow
20:55:30 <oerjan> ehird: it's probably an infinite loop anyway
20:55:41 <ehird> i shouldn't get a stack overflow
20:55:58 <oerjan> ehird: left recursion in parsec? :D
20:56:05 <ehird> oerjan: yes, but there's a base case
20:56:11 <Deewiant> I don't remember the profiling options by heart
20:56:12 <ehird> pExpr :: Parser Expr
20:56:14 <ehird> [do digits <- many1 digit; return (Const (read digits))
20:56:20 <ehird> where op c r = do e <- pExpr; char c; f <- pExpr; return (r e f)
20:56:28 <ehird> that branch is never called
20:56:30 <ehird> my program's just a REM
20:57:17 <oerjan> left recursion _never_ works in parsec
20:57:28 <oerjan> please understand that
20:57:30 <ehird> even when there's a base case?
20:57:44 <ehird> anyway it's irrelevant
20:57:45 <oerjan> because it literally recurses before doing anything
20:57:46 <ehird> that branch is never called
20:57:50 <ehird> 10 REM This is an example program:
20:57:51 <ehird> it is written for the Esolang wiki.
20:57:56 <ehird> oerjan: no, because it tries to find an integer first
20:58:00 <ehird> then goes onto the recursy solutions
20:58:04 <ehird> [do digits <- many1 digit; return (Const (read digits))
20:58:36 <oerjan> but if it does _not_ find an integer?
20:58:46 <Deewiant> ehird: fmap (Const . read) (many1 digit)
20:59:14 <ehird> oerjan: then it looks for an expression (which looks for an integer)
20:59:33 <ehird> anyway, that's not my bug ffs
20:59:33 <Deewiant> ehird: No, it keeps looking for an integer forever
20:59:37 <oerjan> yes, and then you infinitely recurse because there is none to find
21:00:10 <ehird> i'll deal with that when I come to that.
21:00:22 <oerjan> ehird: but that _might_ be the problem
21:00:29 <ehird> 10 REM This is an example program:
21:00:29 <ehird> it is written for the Esolang wiki.
21:00:35 <oerjan> is pExpr tried before the REM check?
21:00:35 <ehird> that program cannot possibly parse a pExpr
21:00:51 <ehird> oerjan: no, because they're all behind string "FOO"s
21:00:57 <ehird> so they never get to that point
21:02:07 <ehird> oerjan: http://pastie.org/443146.txt?key=uqwgsv07ofssmmmcr9dzq
21:04:10 <oerjan> ehird: i see an indentation error at least
21:04:17 <ehird> oerjan: erm ghc disagrees
21:04:26 <ehird> (do char ':'; many (char '\n'); return ()
21:04:26 <ehird> <|> do anyChar; return ())
21:04:29 <ehird> how's that an error
21:04:49 <Deewiant> It's confusingly intended is all
21:05:16 <Asztal_> wouldn't it usually be something like: term = digit* | '(' expr ')'; expr = term (op expr)*; op = '+' | '-' | '*' | '/'
21:05:21 <oerjan> ehird: the <|> ends the _outer_ do
21:05:48 <oerjan> because it's directly below string
21:05:53 <ehird> yeh, makes no difference
21:06:15 <Deewiant> What it /might/ be is be in the same expression as the return ()
21:06:31 <Deewiant> So it's actually = do char ':'; many (char '\n'); return () <|> do anyChar; return ()
21:06:39 <oerjan> ehird: indent that <|> a bit
21:06:45 <ehird> and nothing changed
21:06:51 <ehird> the only branch hit is the REM one
21:07:07 <Deewiant> oerjan: But since the whole thing is () it can't hit the outer do
21:07:34 <oerjan> Deewiant: the <|> is _not_ in () inside the do
21:07:58 <Deewiant> oerjan: "do char ':'; many (char '\n'); return () <|> do anyChar; return ()" is in ()
21:08:13 <oerjan> Deewiant: that's not the <|> i was referring to
21:08:29 <oerjan> i am talking about the one after PRINT
21:08:41 <ehird> you're reading wrong
21:08:45 <Deewiant> Well that one is definitely in the outer do
21:08:58 <Deewiant> Since the do above it is in ()
21:09:14 <Deewiant> oerjan: It won't end the outer do
21:09:16 <oerjan> it is not _in_ the outer do
21:09:36 <oerjan> you cannot start a do line with an operator
21:09:43 <ehird> oerjan: tell ghc that
21:09:47 <ehird> because it happened to let me
21:09:47 <oerjan> ehird: try indenting it
21:10:18 <Deewiant> oerjan: Works as one might expect
21:10:47 <oerjan> oh well ghc may not be strict about it
21:11:10 <ehird> ghc is not the culprit here.
21:11:40 <oerjan> um according to haskell 98 that <|> _should_ end the do or possibly just error
21:12:09 <ehird> can we go on to the real problem now
21:12:33 <oerjan> well since you tested it and it didn't help
21:13:02 <oerjan> the indentation rule says to insert a ; before the <|>
21:13:31 <Asztal_> do notation considered harmful. :)
21:13:50 <oerjan> but let me look at the REM then
21:16:37 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
21:16:50 <Deewiant> oerjan: Based on a quick look at the report I'd say you're right, but FWIW Hugs accepts the code I pasted as well
21:20:14 <Asztal_> I think the code you pasted becomes (do putStrLn "foo") >> putStrLn "bar", so the <|> maybe indeed be escaping
21:21:07 <oerjan> but if so indenting it should help
21:21:14 <oerjan> unless there is another bug
21:21:50 <oerjan> because if the <|> escapes, it creates exactly a forbidden left recursion in the second branch
21:22:30 <Deewiant> Asztal_: You're right, it does
21:22:32 <oerjan> erm, it calls pExpr i mean, which left recurses because there is no integer at that spot
21:22:40 <Deewiant> That fails because x isn't in scope
21:23:06 <oerjan> Deewiant: is that with ghc?
21:23:36 * oerjan realizes his hugs installation is mesozoic
21:24:22 <oerjan> the parsec module names have changed
21:25:50 <oerjan> ehird: given what Deewiant says, you _really_ should check that indentation of the <|> in the PRINT branch
21:28:54 <oerjan> unless you are _really_ sure that's what you did when you said nothing changed
21:31:51 <oerjan> ehird: also, check out Debug.Trace.trace for simple debug print statements
21:33:58 <AnMaster> ais523, only downside of svn wesnoth is that you sometimes get stuck due to bugs making the levels not work (just reported such a bug)
21:34:41 <ais523> that's a general downside of sticking on svn head
21:34:44 <ais523> and it isn't the only downside
21:34:50 <ais523> the need to install things by hand is another, I'd think
21:35:06 * ais523 is vaguely surprised that AnMaster even uses a package manager
21:35:31 <AnMaster> ais523, wesnoth can be run from build dir...
21:36:14 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway of course I use package manager for everything outside /home
21:36:22 <AnMaster> I prefer to keep track of files
21:37:59 <AnMaster> and for stuff in my home dir I use a separate directories for each package, like ~/local/llvm/2.5 ~/local/flightgear/trunk ~/local/valgrind/trunk ~/local/python/3.0 and so on
21:38:57 <AnMaster> ais523, that helps for keeping stuff organized
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21:39:37 <ais523> is that like /usr/local?
21:40:22 <Deewiant> I call my such directory ~/opt
21:41:32 <oerjan> is that the optimal name?
21:47:10 <ais523> I have ~/research for things on my computer that I didn't work on
21:47:18 <ais523> like downloaded programs
21:47:24 <ais523> unless they fit under ~/esoteric
21:47:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
21:50:37 <AnMaster> very quick, usually it takes an hour or so at least
21:50:47 <ais523> maybe someone who knew how to fix it was online
21:51:45 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed, one of the maintainers of the campaign was.
21:51:53 <AnMaster> now I got a C++y build error instead though
21:52:01 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/0HD0mx75.html if anyone cares
21:53:10 <oklopol> COFFEE IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO GOOD
21:53:24 <Deewiant> That's not the alarm, that's the coffee machine!
21:53:31 <ais523> that's a very C++y error
21:55:32 <lifthrasiir> http://entangle.mearie.org/sapzil/pyfunge-docs/funge98.html i don't know why i wrote that thing... strange.
21:56:42 * lifthrasiir made pyfunge 0.5 branch while doing a lot of refactoring
21:56:46 <ais523> lifthrasiir: you're just doing what things like gcc do, documenting all the interp-specific stuff
21:58:29 <ais523> it's also a very professional-looking docs for a Funge interp
22:00:10 <lifthrasiir> maybe i was trying to do it since behavior of many fingerprints is never precisely documented, except for reference implementation
22:00:36 <Deewiant> Yeah, I've often wondered about writing such a thing as well, for the RCS fingerprints
22:01:13 <ehird> (AnMaster and non debianists:
22:01:22 <ehird> checkinstall does "make install" or w/e and prompts you for a lil bit of metadata
22:01:29 <ehird> then it makes a .deb out of it and installs it
22:01:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> lifthrasiir: you're just doing what things like gcc do, documenting all the interp-specific stuff <-- cfunge do something like that too, a short section in the readme on it
22:01:35 <Asztal_> checkinstall seems to fail a lot of the time.
22:01:42 <AnMaster> ccbi has it in --help or something iirc
22:01:45 <ehird> up to date 3rd party software + one package manager = FUCK YEAH
22:01:51 <ehird> Asztal_: it's easy to get it working in my experience
22:01:53 <AnMaster> but not as complete as that list of lifthrasiir
22:02:06 <ehird> 21:58 ais523: it's also a very professional-looking docs for a Funge interp
22:02:10 <Deewiant> Or wait, --print-fprints for the fingerprint stuff
22:02:11 <ehird> python's official doc system
22:02:33 <Deewiant> It should be complete, it just assumes you know what the documentation is supposed to say ;-P
22:02:38 <ehird> also, I'm not repasting that C++ error paste because, like every C++ error, it carries 0 bits of information
22:02:43 <ehird> "sfwd:61: error: declaration of ‘struct std::"
22:02:46 <ehird> Pastebin escaping fail.
22:03:02 <ais523> lifthrasiir: planning to implement IFFI at all?
22:03:43 <ehird> AnMaster: you know, you could have just appended 2>&1 | lisppaste to the invocation
22:04:12 <ehird> Deewiant: oerjan-not-here: I did fix the indentation
22:04:17 <AnMaster> ehird, assuming it was in $PATH and not ~/irc/freenode/esoteric/ehird/lisppaste :P
22:04:18 <lifthrasiir> ais523: what fingerprint? i have no information about it.
22:04:22 -!- neldoreth|lp has joined.
22:04:32 <ehird> AnMaster: ln -s ~/irc/freenode/esoteric/ehird/lisppaste ~/local/bin
22:04:40 <ehird> directory order kept while convenience enhanced.
22:04:47 <ehird> lifthrasiir: intercal<->funge98 interface
22:04:47 <ais523> lifthrasiir: let me paste the relevant parts of the cfunge+ick docs
22:04:48 <AnMaster> ehird, also I couldn't have done that, because there were loads of "updating mo" before
22:04:56 <ehird> AnMaster: | tail -N |
22:04:57 <ais523> ehird: it's intercal-like FFI
22:04:57 <AnMaster> for about 200 or so different *.po
22:05:04 <ais523> it doesn't have to have anything to do with INTERCAL, really
22:05:10 <ehird> or, just copy it and paste into $ lisppaste
22:05:20 <ehird> which is faster than rafb.nte anyway, most probably
22:06:12 <ais523> lifthrasiir: http://rafb.net/p/t9sHPM29.html
22:06:15 <ais523> on rafb to annoy ehird
22:06:43 <ehird> You know, you don't have to be a dick.
22:06:52 <ehird> http://paste.lisp.org/display/78378, pasted as "ais523" to annoy ais523.
22:07:11 <ais523> ehird: put it this way, the docs are available in a C-INTERCAL distribution anyway
22:07:22 <ais523> so putting it somewhere permanent is just wasting storage space bytes
22:07:30 <lifthrasiir> i think that's too strange to be implemented for near future. ;)
22:07:35 <ehird> Yeah, the whole KB or so of text.
22:07:43 -!- neldoreth|lp has quit (Client Quit).
22:07:47 <ehird> It's not like 10TB is affordable to put in a server nowadays.
22:08:21 -!- M0ny has joined.
22:08:46 <ais523> ehird: I think you're mostly just missing the fact that some conversations are just ephemeral
22:08:54 <ehird> ais523: They would be if not for clog.
22:09:06 <ehird> Clog exists to preserve our ephemeral conversations.
22:09:09 <ais523> most conversations here don't make sense afterwards anyway
22:09:19 <ehird> ais523: Sure they do; I'm an avid logreader, I do it for interest and fun.
22:09:19 <ais523> clog exists to preserve the set of things which are actually intelligible months later
22:09:24 <ehird> It is irritating seeing a link that has expired.
22:09:32 <ehird> & kind of defeats the point
22:09:41 <ais523> proto: put all the pastes on pastebin.ca, and set it to expire after 5 minutes, but only when ehird isn't here
22:10:04 <ehird> proto: Don't be an asshole just to annoy me. Crazy, I know
22:10:17 <ais523> it's just that you're annoying everyone else with the whole pastebin thing
22:10:35 <ehird> You know I haven't complained about rafb much in ages.
22:11:11 <ehird> It's such an interestingly common thing with humans: if a thing used to happen a lot and now happens only sporadically - heck, if it completely stops and is only survived by people joking about it when it would usually happen - they, for some reason, assume it still happens constantly.
22:11:59 <ehird> 21:52 oklopol: ehird: RAFB ALERT
22:11:59 <ehird> 21:52 Deewiant: SOUND THE ALARM
22:12:00 <ehird> 21:52 oklopol: *BEEEEP BEEEEEEEP*
22:12:02 <ehird> 21:52 Deewiant: WEEEOOOO WEEEEOOOO WEEEEOOOO
22:12:04 <ehird> 21:53 oklopol: COFFEE IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO GOOD
22:12:16 <ais523> I thought there was another time...
22:12:24 <ehird> ais523: yes you were!
22:12:38 <ehird> 21:52 AnMaster: http://rafb.net/p/0HD0mx75.html if anyone cares
22:12:38 <ehird> 21:52 AnMaster: bbl
22:12:39 <ehird> 21:52 oklopol: ehird: RAFB ALERT
22:12:43 <ehird> 21:53 Deewiant: That's not the alarm, that's the coffee machine!
22:12:45 <ehird> 21:53 ais523: that's a very C++y error
22:12:47 <ehird> no joins in between
22:13:46 <ais523> oh, I thought there was another occasion today
22:13:57 <ais523> it must be that oklopol's allcaps hit my mental spam filter
22:14:18 -!- neldoreth|lp has joined.
22:14:56 <ehird> The problem with mental spamfilters on IRC is that on email people don't have in-depth conversations with viagra spammers.
22:15:22 <ais523> ehird: you get lots of spam from other people, though
22:15:35 <ais523> often people getting annoyed and writing in allcaps, or one word a line, or doing large pastes
22:15:42 <ehird> The point is that every time I ignore AnMaster I unignore him because I can't follow the channel.
22:15:54 <ehird> So spamfiltering IRC doesn't really work.
22:15:54 <ais523> people think it adds weight to their words, but actually it just makes them impossible to read
22:16:14 <ais523> well, you know, most people think that conversations involving AnMaster can be interesting
22:16:19 -!- neldoreth|lp has quit (Client Quit).
22:16:20 <ehird> ais523: Your brain's weird if it can't parse a wimpy enter-as-space.
22:16:23 <ehird> Also, that's the point.
22:16:33 <ehird> You say that /ignore lets everyone see what they want and everyone's happy
22:16:35 <ais523> my brain ignores it because the content of the message is generally useless in such cases
22:16:36 <ehird> but it doesn't work in practice
22:16:43 * AnMaster turns off highlight flashing for this channel for a while, busy playing wesnoth
22:16:54 <ehird> AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster
22:17:03 -!- neldoreth|lp has joined.
22:17:04 <ais523> *ehird misses the point
22:17:18 <ehird> ais523: if I say it enough his client will give in and beep
22:17:19 <ehird> AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster
22:17:59 <ais523> ehird: no, you'll just annoyingly spam everyone else
22:18:08 <ehird> Nobody's talking, ais523.
22:18:26 <ais523> that doesn't make spamming any less annoying
22:18:34 <ais523> because it means that I have to focus on the channel
22:18:40 <ehird> you don't _have_ to
22:18:43 <ais523> whereas if here's empty, I can just do other things
22:18:53 <ais523> well, no, but I do if I want to determine if anything useful was said or not
22:19:16 <ehird> Answer: Yes. Now you can ignore this channel.
22:25:08 -!- neldoret1|lp has joined.
22:25:21 -!- neldoret1|lp has quit (Client Quit).
22:26:13 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:26:48 <oklopol> <ehird> You know I haven't complained about rafb much in ages.
22:26:48 <oklopol> It's such an interestingly common thing with humans: if a thing used to happen a lot and now happens only sporadically - heck, if it completely stops and is only survived by people joking about it when it would usually happen - they, for some reason, assume it still happens constantly. <<< yep, interesting phenomenon
22:27:11 <zzo38> I think Burro programs do not form a group because a anti-condition by itself does not mean anything. Am I wrong?
22:27:48 <oklopol> not sure i assumed it happens constantly ofc, my brain doesn't really understand time, but i've noticed that multiple times too.
22:28:13 <zzo38> And now for the game "Pulling the rules of Magic: the Gathering as far as possible and even a bit more farther as well"
22:28:40 <zzo38> A card has only the type Tribal and no other types or text. Its mana cost is {G}.
22:28:42 <oklopol> <ehird> The problem with mental spamfilters on IRC is that on email people don't have in-depth conversations with viagra spammers. <<< you say lots of clever things today, are you especially lucid for some reason?
22:28:54 <zzo38> You tell me what you think it does and I will tell you what I think it does, based on the rules.
22:28:57 <ehird> oklopol: umm no, but let's just say yes so I feel cooler
22:28:58 <ais523> zzo38: it isn't a permanent, although I'm not sure offhand if it can be played at all
22:29:55 <ehird> oklopol: I think it's when I use correct grammar like this. I sound more sage-like.
22:29:59 <zzo38> I think it is a "permanent card" although it still cannot be played at all, but something can put it into play.
22:30:01 <oklopol> <zzo38> I think Burro programs do not form a group because a anti-condition by itself does not mean anything. Am I wrong? <<< just check the axioms
22:31:29 <oklopol> ehird: i'm a bit disappointed you didn't think that was sarcasm. i hate it when people know what i mean.
22:31:56 <zzo38> Another card: It has 2 types, Instant and Land. What does it do? Again, after you tell me what you think, I will tell you what I think.
22:32:08 <oklopol> i have a mental spam filter for most of the unix programs and stuff talk
22:32:17 <ehird> oklopol: I considered that it might be sarcasm but then cried.
22:32:51 <oklopol> also for many programming topics that aren't entirely algorithmic
22:33:00 <ehird> oklopol: but unix programs are like megaawesome
22:33:17 <oklopol> the problem is i usually really would like to understand those conversations :P
22:33:20 <Deewiant> zzo38: Otherwise like a land but you can play it whenever you can play an instant
22:33:54 <ais523> zzo38: you can only play it if it's legal to play an instant, and if you haven't played a land that turn
22:33:57 <oklopol> it seems i like noticing other people's intelligence atm.
22:34:05 <ais523> once it comes into play it goes straight into the graveyard because it's an instant
22:34:15 <zzo38> Deewiant: No, I don't think so. How I think it works is: You can play it any time you have priority, as long as it is your turn and you haven't played a land yet this turn. However, when played, it stays in your hand instead of going into play, but it still counts as your land for the turn.
22:34:37 <ehird> oklopol: did you get a bad grade or sth
22:34:41 <Deewiant> zzo38: Why would it stay in your hand?
22:34:44 <ais523> zzo38: I think it goes into the graveyard, bouncing through play, but you're otherwise right
22:34:50 <oklopol> ehird: err, yes, actually :D
22:34:57 <ehird> oklopol: what out of 5 :-D
22:35:05 <oklopol> 4, and this time there were 5's.
22:35:07 <ais523> also, if you play it when you couldn't play a sorcery, you have to pay its mana cost
22:35:09 <ehird> oklopol: 7/5 as opposed to your wanted 7.001/5?
22:35:44 <Deewiant> zzo38: Sorry, the rule set that I know relatively well is 15 years old ;-)
22:36:36 <ais523> zzo38: what does it say? I don't have the rules handy
22:36:43 <zzo38> Would you be correct if it was the 15 year old rule set? Do you think I am correct with the current rule set?
22:36:49 <oklopol> ehird: the problem was i didn't have time to read the lecture notes, because i'd read the 600 page (optional) book, and i'd been sick so i just had one weekend to do that.
22:36:57 <Deewiant> zzo38: Like said, what does the rule say
22:36:58 <zzo38> 212.5d Instants can't come into play. If an instant would come into play, it remains in its previous zone instead.
22:36:58 <oklopol> but still, failure is a failure
22:37:00 <ais523> also, 15 years old? isn't that before instants were invented?
22:37:09 <ais523> zzo38: ah, I forgot about that one
22:37:18 <Deewiant> ais523: Instants were always there, but interrupts were there as well
22:37:26 <ehird> how many rules does magic have
22:37:30 <ais523> Deewiant: that's something entirely different to modern instants
22:37:44 <ehird> ais523: is it a nomic yt
22:37:54 <oklopol> the book was about use case based software engineering, exam was mostly about agile development, because the lecturer has a boner for it
22:38:09 <ehird> oklopol: then I think you should be proud to fail that
22:38:10 <Deewiant> I don't know the details of the modern instants but from what I gather they're essentially interrupts
22:38:14 <ehird> oklopol: because it sounds like a heap of shit :D
22:38:45 <Deewiant> zzo38: I think ais523'd be right with the old rules
22:38:45 <oklopol> agile development isn't a fundamentally bad idea, if done right
22:38:49 <zzo38> In the modern Magic: the Gathering rules there is the stack, if you know the old rules, I'm not sure if it worked at all like the modern stack or not.
22:39:08 <Slereah_> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/kareha.pl/1192759617/l50
22:39:12 <oklopol> (and "mostly" meant half of the questions were about AD)
22:39:19 <Slereah_> Dude didn't notice that this board has no text art :D
22:39:23 <ais523> zzo38: the way interrupts used to work made them equivalent to stacked instants, except that timing of turns was slightly different
22:39:40 <ehird> 22:38 oklopol: agile development isn't a fundamentally bad idea, if done right β The first & last time oklopol will ever endorse something billing itself as a "software development methodology"
22:39:43 <ehird> Cherish this moment.
22:39:46 <ais523> there was also a batch, which was how instants stacked, it was like a stack except everything popped simultaneously instead of one at a time
22:39:54 <oklopol> ehird: i enforce a lot of things on paper! :D
22:40:14 <ais523> Deewiant: I don't think you could play two stacked instant-speed effects without giving the opponent a chance to interrupt under the old rules
22:40:34 <ehird> oklopol: but, you know, I just got the image of you forcing various things to have sex with paper and I kind of don't like that image
22:40:55 <oklopol> ehird: explanation to that, i tend to copy paste other people's expressions when responding to their msg's.
22:41:10 <ais523> oh, even waterfall isn't a fundamentally bad idea if done right
22:41:21 <ais523> although you have to modify it a lot for it to work correctly in practice
22:41:27 <Deewiant> ais523: So, these days you can play two instants without the opponent being able to respond in between?
22:41:30 <ehird> waterfall is fundamentally bad imo
22:41:40 <ehird> "Be completely and utterly perfect before you do anything at all."
22:41:58 <zzo38> The third card: It is a card with the type Creature and P/T=1/1, with mana cost {G} and text "Phasing; When ~ comes into play, it becomes an Instant in addition to its other types." Tell me what you think and I tell you what I think, and then argue about who is correct.
22:42:02 <ais523> Deewiant: yes, but the opponent gets to do things before they /resolve/
22:42:42 <ais523> zzo38: the opponent kills it with Shock before it gets to do anything interesting
22:43:05 <ais523> also, I disagree with you about the instant land
22:43:10 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:43:11 <zzo38> Assume neither you nor the opponent doesn't do anything to interfere
22:43:24 <ais523> it doesn't go back into your hand; it stays on the stack
22:43:33 <zzo38> ais523: Please tell us what you think the instant land does.
22:43:34 <Deewiant> ais523: So is the essential difference that you can still affect only the top of the stack, meaning that you can only affect the other one? Or what?
22:43:37 <ais523> then it gets put into the graveyard as a state-based effect due to being stuck on the stack
22:44:00 <oklopol> my brain keeps filtering this too, even though i've played tons of M&G
22:44:00 <zzo38> Lands don't go on the stack! A land is always played as a land rather than as the other type that it is.
22:44:00 <ais523> Deewiant: there's only an essential difference if something happens as the card goes onto the stack
22:44:15 <ais523> Deewiant: such as saccing a creature as an additional cost
22:44:57 <ais523> zzo38: actually, I think your just-a-tribal breaks the rules just by existing
22:45:01 <Deewiant> ais523: That sacrifice is resolved before the opponent gets to do anything?
22:45:06 * oklopol has spirit of the night, which has a curse, it's been in play about 50 times, occasionally even with those "dig up spirit of the night from your pile" cards, but it's never gotten to play :|
22:45:07 <ais523> because the rules say tribals already have a different part
22:45:17 <ais523> Deewiant: the sacrifice /happens/ before the opponent gets to do anything
22:45:45 <oklopol> four fucking gravediggers or what's that dig-up card called
22:45:48 <ais523> but any effects that might happen as a result, such as gaining life when sacs happen, go on the stack
22:46:04 <Deewiant> ais523: Right, that's what I meant, I think.
22:49:42 <zzo38> Please tell me what you think about the third card.
22:50:54 <ais523> I'm sure he'd be amused that there's a channel where he's mostly famous for INTERCAL
22:50:55 <ehird> Do you want therapy?
22:51:27 <ehird> ais523: he's "esr"
22:51:33 <ehird> wesnoth/developer/esr
22:52:35 <AnMaster> indeed esr is a wesnoth developer
22:52:52 * ehird tries to combine INTERCAL, islamophobia and "gun rights"; fails miserably.
22:52:59 <ehird> No trolling a public figure for ehird today.
22:54:32 <ehird> hmm well if you smoke it just the right way
22:55:40 <bsmntbombdood> void mutex_lock(int *pipe) { char ignore; read(pipe[0], &ignore, 1); } void mutex_unlock(int *pipe) { char ignore; write(pipe[1], &ignore, 1); }
22:56:50 <zzo38> Make more weird cards to confuse the rules of Magic: the Gatheirng cards if you want to.
22:57:10 <ehird> how can you confuse an inanimate concept, zzo38
22:57:25 <zzo38> I don't mean "confuse" in that sense, please.
22:57:57 <ais523> zzo38: the beautiful T: Destroy target creature. Add (1) to your mana pool.
22:58:23 <ais523> but it utterly destroys Magic's timing rules, so badly that Wizards have been carefully avoiding anything like that for years
22:58:57 <oklopol> guaranteed mana burn, right?
22:59:03 <ais523> oklopol: nope, much worse
22:59:15 <ais523> Deewiant: you can legally play it halfway through paying a mana cost
22:59:16 <zzo38> I think that is not a mana ability, because a mana ability is one that provides mana and does not have a target (rule 406.1)
22:59:27 <ais523> "Destroy a creature", then
23:00:06 <Deewiant> Hmm, I wonder if they're new or old
23:00:18 <zzo38> O. Then I guess it is a mana ability and the creature will be destroyed without the chance for opponent to respond (except conceding, which can be done at any time regardless of anything else, you are even allowed to concede if a card says "Players may not concede")
23:00:31 <ais523> zzo38: for bonus points, work out how it interacts with convoke
23:00:34 * AnMaster hit another blocker bug in that campaign
23:01:25 <AnMaster> and I'm not sure what it is, except I lost all units to recall and my advanced leader unit returned to level 1 in the third last level of the campaign.
23:01:38 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, it might indeed
23:02:06 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: the idea is that you can now select/poll your lock
23:02:41 <zzo38> Convoke is rule 502.46
23:02:56 <ais523> Deewiant: a relatively new ability, it's only 4 blocks old
23:03:12 <ais523> lets you tap creatures instead of or as well as mana while playing the spell
23:03:23 <oklopol> zzo38: do you remember the rule numbers?
23:03:31 <Deewiant> The last time I played was with that expansion full of black cards
23:03:42 <zzo38> I just looked it up, I have the file open in a text editor for quick lookup of rules
23:03:44 <ais523> you're probably thinking of Torment
23:05:07 <Deewiant> My preferred set is still anything older than Mirage :-P
23:05:50 <ais523> I stopped playing quite recently, because I didn't enjoy most of the sets that were still standard-legal
23:06:29 <zzo38> I don't play Magic much, mostly I just think about it
23:06:51 <Deewiant> I think I still have two Blood Lusts from Legends somewhere but that's it
23:07:13 <zzo38> I even made up two sets of cards http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/magic_set_editor/Unplugged.mse-set and http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/magic_set_editor/SuperUnplugged.mse-set
23:07:48 <zzo38> And I still prefer the old card style
23:08:05 <zzo38> (Hint: The .mse-set files are just .zip file with different extension)
23:09:10 <zzo38> I am currently reading rule 409.1
23:11:49 <Deewiant> MSE looks new, I wonder if it's decent
23:12:48 <zzo38> If you don't have MSE you can still open it as a ZIP archive
23:13:07 <AnMaster> what is magic the gathering...
23:13:40 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering is card game
23:13:59 <ais523> it's not really a typical card game
23:14:06 <ais523> you have to spend an absolute fortune buying the cards
23:14:16 <ais523> and you have to keep buying more cards to get better cards than your opponents
23:14:21 <Deewiant> No, you just buy 60 cards and play with proxies
23:14:30 <Deewiant> Or play online using Apprentice32 or whatever :-P
23:14:35 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you make your own cards then or something
23:14:43 <ais523> AnMaster: then nobody will play with you
23:14:54 <zzo38> I never play Constructed (except casual games when I borrow other people card), so I am not bothered with the cost. I only pay when playing Limited. In other cases I just think about the game, make up something on computer, use proxies, etc.
23:14:54 <Deewiant> They might if they're smart cards
23:14:58 <ais523> but yes, I suspect there's a huge black market in playing the same rules with proxies
23:15:02 <AnMaster> well not up your sleeve style of course
23:15:25 <AnMaster> ais523, what are the rules like
23:15:34 <zzo38> ais523: You don't have to keep buying more cards to get better cards than your opponent if you are only playing Limited. That is why I like Limited
23:15:47 <ais523> zzo38: I only like limited if the cards themselves are interesting
23:17:07 <zzo38> If you just want to try card with interesting, don't bother with tournaments, just use proxies. In a tournament, you pay entrance fee, draft the cards passing around the table, keep the cards you drafted, and if you get in a good enough placing you can win extra packs. And then you can sell all the cards if you want to. Different card are woth a different amount of money
23:17:38 <ais523> AnMaster: proxy = unofficial card made by hand
23:17:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Buy sleeves for the cards and then put a piece of paper inside the sleeve next to the card saying what card it's actually meant to be
23:18:01 <zzo38> I don't play tournaments that often either, usually only very rarely I like to play the tournament. And only Limited, and usually never more than once per each new set coming out.
23:19:41 <zzo38> I won't play Magic: the Gathering in any situation where a player has an advantage because they are rich
23:19:59 <ais523> I liked Time Spiral because you could play insanely good decks on mostly commons
23:20:16 <ais523> especially Time Spiral + 9th, that was about perfect, I didn't care for the third set
23:20:34 <ais523> oh, Time Spiral + 9th + Coldsnap
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23:21:02 <ais523> AnMaster: each of those are entire /sets/ of cards, you can see how it gets expensive very quickly
23:21:21 <Deewiant> Whaat, Homelands was taken out of Ice Age, mehhh
23:21:28 <zzo38> I would like it if you can look at the card I have in the sets I invented so that a comment can be made of it
23:21:29 <ais523> Deewiant: that was a joke
23:22:06 <Deewiant> I just Wikipedia'd Coldsnap and that's what it says
23:22:37 <ais523> it's official, but the joke was that Homelands was introduced by a rival company and Coldsnap was the actual third set in that block
23:22:55 <ais523> the point being that modifying Ice Age block makes no difference this late, as nobody plays Ice Age block tournaments anyway
23:23:46 <Deewiant> But I'd be more attracted to such than other tournaments
23:24:38 <AnMaster> are you aware of how silly this sounds to someone not playing the game
23:24:40 <zzo38> The tournament is generally the newest set. But at the anime convention they played with two of one set and one pack of another set
23:24:50 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's why lots of people stopped playing
23:25:16 <ais523> zzo38: tournament is generally the newest /block/, it was probably 2 of the first in the block and 1 in the second because the third hadn't been released at the time
23:25:43 <AnMaster> ais523, so what do you do, match numbers in suites or what. You haven't actually explained what it IS yet.
23:26:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The rules are long and complicated, as said.
23:26:24 <ais523> AnMaster: basically: you play lands which allow you to play other cards, then you play creatures, your creatures hurt the opponent but can be blocked by the opponent's creatures, first to takes 20 damage loses
23:26:26 <AnMaster> yes, but surely you can make some sort of representative example or something
23:26:32 <ais523> that is a very summary, though
23:27:03 <AnMaster> ais523, where do the creatures evolve in this game...
23:27:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Basic idea: each player has 20 life points and a deck, you lose when you go below zero or run out of cards. Most cards need mana to play, which you typically get from land cards of which you can play only per turn. There are five different colours of mana.
23:27:21 <ais523> although the pokemon card game is made by the same people who make M:tG
23:27:45 <zzo38> Basically the rules are: Each player 7 cards, you play land card, generate mana, cast a spell by spending the mana, you start 20 points and if you have 0 points you are the loser. You can lose life points by combat damage(from creatures) or other effects. You also lose if you run out of cards
23:27:56 <AnMaster> ais523, Deewiant: this sounds like a crazy cross between D6D, pokemon, a card game and insanity to me.
23:28:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: This is older than PokΓ©mon.
23:28:13 <ais523> zzo38: I can think of at least 3 other ways to lose, so why mention running out of cards? that hardly ever happens
23:28:20 <Deewiant> And yes, the concept draws from D&D.
23:28:31 <zzo38> Running out of cards happened to my opponent in the anime convention.
23:28:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, only the grappling rules I presume.
23:28:54 <Deewiant> Sorry, I don't think there are grappling rules. :-P
23:29:07 <Deewiant> ais can correct me, he evidently knows the newer sets.
23:29:09 <zzo38> I played three tournaments so far, two I lost, but in the anime convention I won that tournament because te other players didn't know the rules very well (one player conceded because he didn't like the rules of the game!)
23:29:12 <ais523> Deewiant: that's an old D&D joke, you need to get D&D's history to get it
23:29:40 <ais523> Magic's rather inconsistent flavour-wise
23:29:43 <Deewiant> Fortunately I don't remember the rules very well. :-P
23:29:47 <AnMaster> I was implying it was as crazy as that.
23:29:51 <ais523> the cards have rules on and flavour text, but the flavour text doesn't do anything
23:29:57 <ais523> which is good as it's very inconsistent between cards
23:30:28 <zzo38> To me, I can play without art or flavor text, but sometimes they are ones I like, but it can still be done without.
23:30:29 <AnMaster> how many unique cards are there
23:30:33 <Deewiant> I liked the old kind of flavour text: The Rime of the Ancient Mariner was probably one of the best
23:30:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Over 10000 these days, probably
23:30:43 <zzo38> A lot of unique card you can check on Wizards of the Coast
23:31:09 <zzo38> I also mostly prefer the old art and old flavor text.
23:31:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you could create your own cheat card, and if it looked good enough no one would notice<question/>
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23:31:45 <AnMaster> also what happens with a card after you play it
23:31:47 <ais523> AnMaster: amazingly, many people have memorized the entire list
23:31:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: In theory, yes. You couldn't go to tournaments with it.
23:31:52 <ais523> AnMaster: depends on what sort of card
23:32:04 <AnMaster> well you get them back after playing or...
23:32:05 <ais523> although instants and sorceries have one-off effects and are then discarded
23:32:10 <Deewiant> Most stay in play, some go to the graveyard a.k.a. discard pile
23:32:23 <ais523> stay in play = you leave them on the table and they continue doing things until someone gets rid of them
23:32:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean isn't there a risk of mixing up your own card with the opponents when the game is over
23:32:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Only if you don't take care of your cards :-P
23:33:06 <ais523> you keep them on your side of the table to not mix them
23:33:13 <zzo38> You could use different color of card sleeves if you wanted to. The other way is you could make a list of the cards
23:33:15 <ais523> and normally the players will use differently-coloured sleeves to make sure
23:33:16 <Deewiant> ais523: There's stuff like Enchant Creature
23:33:26 <Deewiant> Which will end up on the other side of the table
23:33:31 <ais523> Deewiant: sometimes I keep those on my side of the table when enchanting an opponent's card
23:33:37 <ais523> although not when using different sleevs
23:33:54 <Deewiant> ais523: Sounds like a good source of confusion to me :-P
23:33:58 <ais523> and I know from personal experience that enchantment cards often do end up in the wrong player's decks
23:34:09 <zzo38> The cards that enchant other cards are Auras in the modern rules, with the ability called "Enchant Creature" which indicates what type of entities it can enchant. The rules says players and objects, my own rule extend that to "entities"
23:35:29 <zzo38> When I invented the entities/playercard rules, someone didn't understand it and thought I was trying to make combat damage into another player!
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23:35:41 <ehird> damage as a player?
23:35:43 <ehird> that sounds awesome
23:35:47 <ehird> I don't understand but it sounds awesome
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23:36:40 <zzo38> Of course that isn't what I was doing. See http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/magicvar/Entity.txt for the actual rules I wrote (I'm not trying to make combat damage into another player). See also http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/magicvar/Planeswalkers_Variant.txt
23:37:33 <ais523> enchant combat damage?
23:37:47 <ais523> we've already had enchant two cards in a graveyard
23:38:58 <zzo38> Combat damage and cards in a graveyard are both objects, so even the standard rules allow that.
23:40:01 <zzo38> Someone once made a card that said "Add {U} to target {G}'s manapool." In standard rules that means nothing and is unplayable.
23:40:24 <ais523> mana doesn't have manapools
23:40:26 <zzo38> In entity/playercard rules, that card can be played if anyone has green mana in their mana pool, but the card still won't have any effect.
23:40:48 <ais523> what if combined with {R}: Target {G} can play spells this turn
23:40:53 <zzo38> It will have a valid target but the effect on the target is invalid
23:40:57 <ais523> then you just have to get a card into the green mana's hand
23:41:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Garfield being the designer of the game: 'Finkel won match one because Garfield misplayed the current timing rules at least twice during the course of the game.'
23:41:01 <AnMaster> mana comes in different colours nowdays?
23:41:09 <ais523> AnMaster: it always has done, that's the core of the game
23:41:33 <zzo38> "{R}: Target {G} can play spells this turn" won't have any effect either in entity/playercard rules, but at least it means something and is playable (in standard rules it would be meaningless and unplayable)
23:42:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Example of the rules changing
23:42:14 <ais523> tbh, they mostly add or generalise rules, rather than make things illegal
23:42:20 <Deewiant> I'd fail stuff like that too if I played noncasual
23:42:31 <ais523> there's an official website where they have translations of all the old cards into modern rules
23:42:45 <Deewiant> Removing interrupts changed a lot :-P
23:42:54 <zzo38> That is the Gatherer/Oracle where the texts are converted to new rules texts
23:43:01 <ais523> not really, they removed instants then renamed interrupts to instants
23:43:15 <Deewiant> That's the other way of looking at it
23:43:17 <ais523> zzo38: Orcale has the new rules text, Gatherer's a search engine for it
23:43:54 <Deewiant> Also, I guess these days you die instantly when you go below 1 life?
23:43:54 <zzo38> I once made a program packgen that created random booster packs from Gatherer
23:44:17 <AnMaster> why not continue playing by original rules then
23:44:35 <Deewiant> I would do that but I haven't run into folks who agree with me :-P
23:44:42 <zzo38> It is a state-based effect that you die when you go below 1 life. So you don't wait for end of turn like before, but still it isn't completely instant (like if you have 2 life and a card says "You lose 5 life you gain 4 life" then you won't lose)
23:45:20 <ais523> the problem is most new cards are meaningless under old rules
23:45:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'd like to see what happened if someone went and added a new piece to chess some day (<insert relevant TP reference, but it wasn't what I meant>)
23:45:30 <zzo38> I invented a card which says you have to play by the old rules (it is a "unglued/unhinged/un____" styles)
23:46:03 <zzo38> People often do add new pieces to chess, but they are variants rather than standard rules
23:46:45 <ais523> zzo38: wouldn't that get rid of every ability invented since sixth edition?
23:46:48 <ais523> what would happen to spiders?
23:46:58 <ais523> they used to have text that worked under the old rules, but were reworded to reach, which doesn't
23:47:09 <AnMaster> why are they changing the rules
23:47:09 <ais523> would reminder text actually be official under your backdated rules?
23:47:15 <AnMaster> were the original ones broken or something
23:47:18 <ais523> AnMaster: because they can't fit them all onto the card
23:47:26 <ais523> they mostly define terms on the cards
23:47:37 <zzo38> If you use the old rules then you would use the old texts also (but only for old cards obviously)
23:47:44 <AnMaster> ais523, make a rule book and call it something like "Cards and Centaurs"
23:48:02 <ais523> zzo38: ok, something as simple as ashcoat bears, what would that do under the old rules?
23:48:11 <ais523> new card with new simple ability with obvious reminder text
23:48:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I guess the changes that I'm most annoyed about are indeed cases where the old rules were seen as too complicated/broken
23:48:51 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know, it was just a crazy idea, a "Un-" cards idea not a real one
23:49:13 <ais523> Deewiant: banding? phasing?
23:49:24 <Deewiant> ais523: What, have they been removed?
23:49:38 <ais523> but they're never put on new cards
23:49:46 <ais523> because they're too complicated, they have entire rules /sections/ each
23:49:48 <zzo38> Banding and phasing still exist although they aren't used on new cards. On cards in my set, phasing is used however (look to see how if you want to)
23:49:50 <ais523> stretching for many paragraphs
23:50:18 <Deewiant> In practice you don't need to know the sections by heart to be able to play with them
23:50:20 <ais523> challenge: write reminder text for phasing which fits on a card
23:50:38 <AnMaster> how large are these cards<q> or how small is the rules text<q>
23:50:41 <Deewiant> I'm opposed to reminder text, lose it and add more interesting flavour text
23:51:30 <zzo38> Even the reminder text that exists, isn't the actual rules (I think reach ability actually does nothing but flying checks for reach. I invented the card that sways flying and trample and that is why I thought about it at first)
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23:51:56 <ais523> zzo38: correct, about reach
23:52:04 <zzo38> I also don't use reminder text in my cards generally (even if it has no flavor text or arts)
23:52:25 <Deewiant> ais523: Does reminder text generally encompass the whole rule?
23:52:46 <ais523> Deewiant: no, it's generally a summary of the bits that come up most often
23:52:53 <ais523> but with phasing, you have loads of common problems
23:52:58 <ais523> enchantments and equipment, for one
23:54:14 <zzo38> I have made many changes to the rules, for examples, auras that are also creatures can now still continue to enchant things while being creatures, the Haunt keyword takes a parameter being what it haunts (if no parameter, "creature" is assumed), and new keyword abilities
23:54:16 <Deewiant> Then I'd just say something like "Before your untap phase, this card phases out, unless it is phased out, in which case it phases in. It retains its enchantments and tappedness."
23:54:36 <Deewiant> And leave it to the player to remember that "phased out" means essentially "is removed from play"
23:55:00 <ais523> what if its enchantments are themselves enchanted?
23:55:05 <ais523> (I don't actually know what happens then)
23:55:07 <zzo38> Am I correct that if a card in play somehow becomes an instant while in play and phases out, it will never phase back in? Or is that wrong
23:55:12 <Deewiant> Not possible under the old rules :-P
23:55:27 <ais523> zzo38: doesn't it go to the graveyard as a state-based effect?
23:55:30 <ais523> when it becomes an instant?
23:56:00 <zzo38> Let me check the list of state-based effects again. Even if it is, I have made a card called "Unstate" which says "State-based effects stop working until end of turn"
23:56:59 <zzo38> I don't see that state-based effect under rule 420.5
23:57:00 <ais523> zzo38: when does that effect stop working?
23:57:12 <ais523> in particular, I'm trying to remember if ending at end of turn is state-based
23:57:15 <ais523> although I don't think it is
23:57:19 <zzo38> All I see is the rules that say if an instant or sorcery tries to come into play, instead it remains in its current zone
23:57:30 <AnMaster> ais523, the game is described by a state-machine?
23:57:44 <ais523> state-based just means it happens whenever the conditions are met
23:57:48 <ais523> as opposed to in response to something
23:57:58 <zzo38> Ending at end of turn is part of the cleanup step, I think. Well, I have also invented a card "Dirty Game" which says "All players skip their cleanup step"
23:58:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wth is "tappedness". I don't think the word even exists.
23:58:39 <ais523> zzo38: there's almost certainly several degenerate combos if you mix with fundamentals like that
23:58:49 <ais523> AnMaster: tapped = can be used once per turn, and has already been used this turn
23:58:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You're right, it doesn't
23:59:23 <AnMaster> this is off topic here unless it is TC
23:59:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: When a card is tapped it's conventionally turned sideways, it indicates its abilities can't be used until it is untapped again
23:59:46 <ais523> AnMaster: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Magic:_the_Esolang
23:59:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If you really care at all, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_rules
23:59:51 <ais523> I'm not convinced it's TC, but I suspect it might be
00:00:01 <ais523> Deewiant: did I get the wrong name
00:00:08 <ais523> yep, you linked to the page I cared about
00:00:13 <AnMaster> There is currently no text in this page, you can search for this page title in other pages or edit this page.
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00:00:24 <Deewiant> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Magic_The_Gathering_card_deck_of_programming_language
00:00:48 <ais523> fibonacci was rather hard to write, and I/O would be an utter pain
00:01:13 <ais523> zzo38 started it, I think I wrote the program though and someone else (maybe zzo38?) corrected it
00:01:26 <Deewiant> ais523: What order is the deck in
00:01:38 <ais523> the card listed first is first in the deck
00:01:45 <zzo38> The deck is in the order given and is not shuffled at start of the game
00:01:56 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: If you really care at all, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_rules <-- I fail to see enough citations from different sources on it indeed
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00:02:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I browsed it over and it looks correct
00:02:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If you want the official source instead, http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/rules
00:02:40 <Deewiant> Well of course it relies on a single source
00:02:44 <AnMaster> this is clearly a reverse a pyramid scheme
00:02:58 <Deewiant> Cleanup I agree with, but single-source is just stupid
00:03:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is a single source though
00:03:20 <ais523> AnMaster: a good description
00:03:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, but it's stupid that it's a problem
00:03:39 <ais523> Deewiant: the point is, if there's only a single source, why should it be in Wikipedia in the first place? you could just go to the source instead
00:03:50 <AnMaster> ais523, as in manufacture wants everyone to buy more and more cars, and everyone has to, to be able to play at all.
00:04:06 <ais523> yes, Wizards have to make their money somehow
00:04:07 <Deewiant> ais523: So if something is described in only one place it is inherently unencyclopedic?
00:04:15 <ais523> personally I don't mind as long as they keep making good cards, but IMO they stopped
00:04:21 <ais523> they may start again some time
00:04:29 <AnMaster> ais523, IMO a fair games needs everyone to start with a fair distribution of the cards. like shuffling cards then dealing them
00:04:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Uh... you mean, they sell the game, to make profit?
00:04:39 <ais523> Deewiant: pretty mcuh, encyclopedias summarize knowledge, what could they do but copy the source?
00:04:40 <ehird> HOLY FUCK ON A POGO STICK!
00:05:08 <Deewiant> ais523: Everything comes from only one source originally anyway
00:05:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure, but you said everyone had his own cards. You don't deal cards from the same stack as the opponent
00:05:28 <Deewiant> Except in the rare case of the same thing being independently invented in two different places
00:05:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: that's just a different kind of game, not in any way more fair.
00:05:38 <zzo38> I only buy the cards when playing a limited tournament
00:05:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, it depends on how many cards you bought
00:05:45 <ais523> AnMaster: the decks wouldn't work correctly if you mixed them, people try to pick subsets of cards that work well with each other
00:05:57 <oklopol> it's as much about building a good deck as it is about the playing, well, at least approximately
00:06:04 <ehird> AnMaster: i hate that argument
00:06:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, that just adds a new element (the main element?) of strategy to the game: your deck has to be built well, it's not enough that you can play well
00:06:16 <ehird> "<argument>" "<rebuttal>" "ok BUT STILL [even though I have no argument left]"
00:06:27 <zzo38> You still make a deck in limited, only in limited you are limited to the cards they give to you and it doesn't matter how rich you are.
00:06:29 <Deewiant> Yes, I'd say it's the main strategy actually
00:06:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you have keeping to buy more and more to be able to play
00:06:48 <ehird> AnMaster: you're being a fool
00:06:54 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, that's how Wizard's make their money
00:06:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, you don't have to throw your cards away after playing once
00:07:08 <ehird> Deewiant: what if they get moldy?!
00:07:15 <ais523> they tried it with D&D too, which is a disaster IMO
00:07:18 <zzo38> AnMaster: Only in constructed! In limited you only have to buy the cards as part of the entrance fee, other cards you own cannot be used in limited
00:07:31 <Deewiant> But if you want to keep on playing in tournaments then yes, you need to buy new cards since new sets of cards appear every now and then
00:07:42 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and that is silly for a game like this IMO. There is no "Poker Sixth Edition"
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00:07:54 <ehird> its a good thing magic is nothing like poker
00:07:57 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's not about putting the best m&g cards in your deck, it's about having cards, then deciding on a good subset of them for a deck
00:07:58 <ehird> otherwise your argument would make one iota of sense!
00:08:09 <zzo38> I play D&D 3.5 edition still, 4E is not real D&D in my opinion. I am a good defensive player at D&D
00:08:26 <impomatic> So, anyone play Nethack, or Pokemon, or Harry Potter TCG? :-P
00:08:34 <ehird> i used to have pokemon cards
00:08:41 <ehird> but I gave them away in FOOLISH CHILDISH PIQUE
00:08:55 <ehird> Deewiant: M A K E I T N O W
00:09:08 <ehird> AnMaster: nethack trading card game.
00:09:11 <ehird> which should be made.
00:09:13 <Deewiant> I have a deck of Jyhad but that's it
00:09:19 <zzo38> I have played pokemon card, sometimes (rarely) I still do, against my brother (I borrow some of his cards and use those to make a deck)
00:09:27 <ehird> AnMaster: ... lol!!!
00:09:35 <ehird> how have you been carrying this conversation ...
00:09:37 <ais523> oh wow, nethack TCG, someone really should make that
00:09:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectible_card_game
00:09:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Magic is a trading card game
00:09:55 <ehird> so is pokΓ©mon, etc
00:10:10 <AnMaster> but, there are so few nethack releases you can't really make any upgrades
00:10:22 <ehird> eh, there are enough
00:10:25 <Deewiant> There's so much content in Nethack
00:10:31 <ais523> doesn't matter, TCG people just model more of the game
00:10:32 <Deewiant> You don't have to release cards for all at once
00:10:41 <ehird> I wonder what the mailer daemon would b
00:10:49 <ehird> "Go and check your postbox"
00:10:58 <Deewiant> Decide on rules first before thinking about cards :-P
00:11:14 <zzo38> I don't invent TCG. I invent PCG (Printable Card Game), which is like TCG with all the capitalism thrown out. So you cannot purchase cards, you have to print them yourself and mix them and then play some limited style (such as a booster pack draft, etc)
00:11:26 <ehird> zzo38: stop it, you'll get AnMaster excited.
00:11:32 <oklopol> zzo38: that sounds a lot more boring
00:11:35 <AnMaster> <zzo38> I don't invent TCG. I invent PCG (Printable Card Game), which is like TCG with all the capitalism thrown out. <-- sounds like a good idea.
00:11:43 <Deewiant> zzo38: Same thing as TCG, just that no centralized authority sells the cards.
00:11:49 <ehird> now we get to hear from AnMaster about how evil charging money for anything is
00:11:55 <ehird> SNOOZEFEST ACTIVATE
00:12:19 <Deewiant> If such a PCG existed there'd be a market for the cards rather quickly, I suspect.
00:12:19 <oklopol> for me the most thrilling part of playing m&g was probably buying a random deck and then looking through it to see what i got...
00:12:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't evil to charge money... it makes sense, just no for certain things
00:12:28 <Deewiant> And it's only a matter of time before somebody sets up shop.
00:12:31 <AnMaster> it makes sense for say, food, hardware or lots of other things
00:12:38 <oklopol> if you could just print a good deck for yourself, it'd lose all the excitement
00:12:39 <ehird> charging money for cards is probably one of the most reasonable applications of capitalism
00:12:42 <zzo38> Charging money for things is not evil, obviously you have to earn the money, but being greedy to earn money is the evil
00:13:04 <AnMaster> but NOT software, or reverse pyramid scheme
00:13:12 <zzo38> oklopol: "if you could just print a good..." not if you are playing limited!
00:13:20 <Deewiant> zzo38: I'm not sure how TCGs imply greediness; a lot of R&D goes into MtG, you have to pay the people
00:13:29 <oklopol> zzo38: what does that mean?
00:13:31 <ehird> AnMaster: SELLING TCG CARDS IS NOT A REVERSE PYRAMID SCHEME! THEY'RE NOT EVEN RELATED! STOP BULLSHITTING :|
00:13:43 <Deewiant> oklopol: Meh, I mostly enjoy coming up with a deck idea and then trying variations to see if it works out
00:13:45 <ehird> AnMaster: do you even KNOW what a pyramid scheme IS? look it up!!
00:13:45 <AnMaster> ehird, <ais523> AnMaster: a good description
00:13:51 <impomatic> I considered making a PCG based on Corewar, but I could figure out decent mechanics without losing the spirit of Corewar
00:13:55 <ehird> AnMaster: nice argument to authority
00:13:58 <zzo38> And there is nothing wrong with charging money for cards. Just the PCG idea means you do not have to buy the cards if you don't want to, you can make your own card, print them yourself, or whatever, but you still might want to purchase them instead if that makes the cards a better quality.
00:14:00 <oklopol> Deewiant: sure, but i was never a good player :)
00:14:01 <ehird> unfortunately those are invalid too
00:14:02 <ais523> what, I'm authority now?
00:14:15 <ehird> ais523: it's an argument-to-authority regardless of your status
00:14:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what a pyramid scheme is, otherwise I wouldn't have compared it with one.
00:14:23 <ehird> "someone else said this, QED."
00:14:28 <Deewiant> zzo38: So the difference is essentially only that the official rules allow proxies?
00:14:29 <oklopol> Deewiant: i guess i liked that collecting part more than the playing part.
00:14:31 <AnMaster> ehird, shouting just makes you look stupid though.
00:14:43 <Deewiant> oklopol: For me it's exactly the opposite :-)
00:14:51 <ais523> luckily, the cards have nice art on, most of the commons are probably worth it even if you don't play
00:15:08 <Deewiant> I don't like the new art, it's too cartoony
00:15:15 <Deewiant> The new art as of 5-6 years ago
00:15:46 <zzo38> Deewiant: Well, sort of. Also it would be with freedom, you can agree to play with cards you invented yourself, other people can sell other cards for the same game (their own cards) which people can then make as many copies as they want, on paper or on internet, and people can agree which cards are allowed
00:15:56 <AnMaster> I heard of people who still play D&D by the original rules. Now that sounds like a great idea.
00:16:26 <ais523> well, 3e and 4e are independent games, and both are popular
00:16:32 <ais523> yay for open source roleplaying games
00:16:32 <zzo38> So, basically PCG is just what TCG would be as if it were a Free Software/Open Source project.
00:16:46 <ais523> but it's unconnected to 3 instead of the name
00:16:54 <oklopol> i prefer it over 3 even though i haven't really played either.
00:16:57 <ais523> 3 was open-sourced, so various of Wizard's competitors are continuing it under a different name
00:16:58 <Deewiant> Just like 3 is unconnected to 2
00:17:12 <zzo38> I started inventing my own rules for RPG game also called Icosahedral (find it on LiMaWiki) but it isn't finished yet. If you don't understand arcane magic, just be a fighter.
00:17:15 <ais523> I meant "except the name"
00:17:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: As in, only the name is the same
00:17:22 <oklopol> i got this opinion from descriptions of why 4 is worse than 3.
00:17:59 <ehird> " If you don't understand arcane magic, just be a fighter."
00:18:23 <zzo38> 4E is not necessarily a bad game, but it is a bad D&D game, it is a bad role-playing game. I still prefer 3.5E and so does everyone in the group I play with. We also play without miniatures
00:18:24 <Deewiant> It is well over 2 so I'm going to sleep at this point
00:18:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm forced to agree with you on this QOTD
00:18:43 <ais523> 3 is a roleplaying game, 4 is a computer game in pencil-and-paper form
00:18:47 <oklopol> Deewiant: oh is it south park time already? :D
00:19:01 <ehird> ais523: has anyone computerized 4?
00:19:02 <ehird> maybe it'll be good
00:19:24 <oklopol> AnMaster: words you use 10 times a day tend to get shorter
00:19:25 <ais523> ehird: Wizards did, sort of, but it was buggy and you had to play a monthly fee
00:19:49 <ais523> also, I use "the" much more than 10 times a day and it hasn't shortened to "th" yet
00:19:49 <ehird> implicit: [of south park]
00:19:54 <ehird> from: 00:18 oklopol: Deewiant: oh is it south park time already? :D
00:19:57 <ehird> ais523: rly? ur od
00:21:04 <oklopol> ais523: well, i don't really think of "the" as a word in that sense, i mean it's just sentence structure.
00:21:14 <oklopol> and episode is something you have in your mind when using the word
00:21:23 <oklopol> so you actively realize your using it
00:21:42 <ehird> EVACUATION PROCEDURE ENABLED
00:21:44 <ehird> { EMPTY THE BUILDING }
00:21:46 <ehird> NOTHING TO SEE HERE
00:21:48 * ehird BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
00:21:54 <ehird> OKLOPOL MISTAKE CLASS 3
00:21:57 <oklopol> i guess i have become a complete failure today.
00:22:01 <ehird> THE SITUATION IS UNDER CONTROL
00:22:03 <zzo38> What would the card called "Alpha" in Unplugged.mse-set do if it were tapped? I guess "Un-" cards do not have to have consistent rules. But "Unstate" is *not* a "Un-" card even though it has "Un" in its name. "Unstate" is a normal card, even though it is strange and something that Wizards would probably never print
00:22:04 <ehird> EVERYBODY COME BACK IN
00:22:10 <oklopol> first a 4, then two grammar mistakes
00:22:30 <ais523> zzo38: you can tell if it's an uncard by the border colour
00:22:37 <ais523> silver = uncard, black/white = normal card
00:22:54 <ais523> black and white used to mean different things but Wizards kept getting the distinction wrong, so they eventually abandoned it
00:23:08 <zzo38> By the border color, they are all uncards. But the effect of these cards are not all the effects of uncards (some are, some aren't, and some have no effect at all)
00:23:13 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
00:24:10 <ais523> cards made as jokes that can't be played in tournaments, but that you can buy anyway
00:24:13 <oklopol> i cannot wrap my brain around this new concept.
00:24:23 <ehird> ais523: now THAT'S capitalism!
00:24:34 <oklopol> like that one that when played forces another player to dance around the table 10 rounds
00:24:35 <ais523> some of them are rather funny, others aren't
00:24:35 <Sgeo_> ais523, I love the uncards
00:24:40 <ehird> ais523: why do people buy them
00:24:44 <Sgeo_> Unglued and unhinged
00:24:52 <ais523> ehird: I've known people to draft them before now
00:24:53 <impomatic> I bought some of those broken magic cards without realising :-(
00:24:57 <ais523> although I haven't done myself
00:24:58 <zzo38> And some of these cards have non-uncard effects even though they certainly wouldn't be printed in a non-uncard set. By "non-uncard" I mean cards that the rules are not inconsistent and they do not require the use of special uncard rules either
00:25:03 <oklopol> ais523: cards like that? i've only seen a few
00:25:09 <oklopol> or you mean something less uncardy
00:25:13 <Sgeo_> Now, if only the infinite mana card didn't require 15 mana to play
00:25:17 <oklopol> i don't know what's forbidden
00:25:19 <ais523> oklopol: much of them work much like that
00:25:37 <oklopol> all i know about tournaments is they added the 60 card in the deck rule after machine gun was invented
00:25:51 <oklopol> because tournaments became simply about who gets first turn
00:26:08 <oklopol> because everyone had the same deck and won on first turn
00:26:27 <oklopol> err yes a combination of 7 cards that does infinite damage
00:26:39 <zzo38> A card based on something outside of the game, such as the age of the players, the day of the week, or time of day, is not a "non-uncard". Cards with fractions 1/2s and non-proper colors, inconsistent effect, are also not qualify as "non-uncard". But "Unstate" does count as a "non-uncard" in my opinion.
00:27:03 <ais523> oklopol: you mean that there wasn't always a minimum-card-count rule?
00:27:08 <zzo38> Unstate is a card in Unplugged.mse-set (one of the two sets I made)
00:27:10 <ais523> that rule is there for obivous reasons
00:27:11 <Sgeo_> zzo38, there are uncards with non-proper colors?
00:27:21 <ais523> Sgeo_: using uncards it's possible to generate pink mana
00:27:25 <oklopol> ais523: no, or i've been lied to
00:27:28 <ais523> and that doesn't even involve any of zzo38's
00:27:48 <zzo38> No, but uncards are allowed to use non-proper colors (for example, your eye colors, even if it isn't one of the colors of Magic). Non-uncards are not allowed to do this.
00:27:57 <oklopol> but you'd think the source would know, he gets invited to the finnish championships every year
00:28:13 <ais523> oklopol: I'm not saying you're likely
00:28:24 <ais523> just I'm surprised that Mr. Garfield didn't think of it
00:28:52 <ais523> there are enough cards in Magic that given a perfect draw, you can win on turn 1 without even spending mana
00:28:57 <oklopol> with a small number of cards you're on thin ice
00:29:02 <oklopol> because you lose when you run out of cards
00:29:18 <zzo38> Please read some of my Unplugged.mse-set and SuperUnplugged.mse-set I think you might be interested in a few of those cards. (You need to either have Magic Set Editor or to just unzip it as if it were a ZIP file and open the contained files in text editor)
00:29:37 <ais523> zzo38: why not unzip it and cat together all the contained files?
00:29:45 <zzo38> The minimum number of cards is 40 in limited, 60 in constructed
00:30:10 <zzo38> ais523: Because some are picture files, some are text files, and the different files (even text files) might have different formats anyways
00:30:13 <ais523> I still think your set will be full of degenerate combos
00:30:26 <ais523> zzo38: then sort by the output of file first
00:30:42 -!- OoS has joined.
00:31:08 <ehird> oklopol: its impomatic
00:31:19 <ais523> still a nice nick, though
00:31:27 <oklopol> OoS: sorry, mistake, i hate it
00:31:29 * Sgeo_ growls angrily at http://theorderofsticks.wordpress.com
00:31:44 <ais523> ehird: on another note, we really need to get BF Joust back up somehow
00:31:50 <ais523> the contract doesn't allow anyone but Goethe to modify it...
00:32:00 <ehird> ais523: just make a new one
00:32:01 <zzo38> No I can't do that, ais523! But I did do one thing, put the text in the file called Unplugged_set.txt in case you want to look at it (you won't see the pictures for some of the cards, though)
00:32:05 <ehird> I'll code tomorrow, I guess
00:32:18 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
00:32:22 <Sgeo_> ehird, this person is slowly uploading OOTS comics, for no discernable reason, and ignoring what everyone is saying about copyright
00:32:41 <ais523> has Rich Burlew tried to sue him yet?
00:32:59 <ehird> Sgeo_: As an avowed pirate, I cannot possibly comment. (It's not like he's claiming them as their own.)
00:33:24 * ais523 remembers to stop working on cocoding projects with ehird in case ehird tries to sneak copyvios into them
00:33:24 <ehird> (I will say nothing of the site owner's actual intentions; they are probably not too innocent.)
00:33:33 <ehird> ais523: I don't do that.
00:33:44 <ehird> ais523: I pirate for usage only :-P
00:33:45 <Sgeo_> At least the person added "If you want see them already or see more visit http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html" to the Episode Guide..
00:34:14 <OoS> oos <> order of sticks
00:34:16 <OoS> oos == origin of storms :-)
00:34:24 <Sgeo_> In my mind, the worst thing was the commenters who wanted to see the next episode.. apparently unaware of the real site
00:35:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:35:13 <ehird> Chaos (00:06:10) :
00:35:13 <Sgeo_> And apparently Rich Burlew's name is is Rich Burlews
00:35:14 <ehird> theorderofstick (08:51:41) :
00:35:16 <ehird> Got pemission of Rich
00:35:20 <ehird> This, on the other hand, is obviously a lie.
00:35:41 <OoS> What's happening with BF Joust?
00:35:55 <ais523> Goethe, the person in charge, ended the round and has now gone on a month-long break
00:36:00 <ais523> and nobody else can restart it without eir help
00:36:09 <ehird> AnMaster: impomatic.
00:36:11 <ais523> AnMaster: OoS = impomatic
00:36:22 <ehird> A person. A being. Someone on IRC.
00:36:32 <Sgeo_> There is LITERALLY no point to theorderofsticks
00:36:33 <ehird> Someone probably interested in esolangs; what more do you want?
00:36:36 <ehird> Credit card number?
00:36:46 <ehird> Sgeo_: I do my fair share of pointless things.
00:37:02 <Sgeo_> ehird, but blatantly illegal pointless things?
00:37:13 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, I tried to read it, I gave up
00:37:17 <ehird> Sgeo_: It is probably not illegal.
00:37:24 <ehird> Sgeo_: The author credit is there and links to the original site too.
00:37:30 <oklopol> ehird: well, i know impomatic well enough to want to know who's him and who's not
00:37:40 <ehird> Sgeo_: Even if it is illegal - so what? Nobody is being hurt.
00:38:07 <zzo38> Ask me about my D&D character(s) and the other PCs and NPCs in our party if you want to. And then compare to other version of D&D rulesets if you want to
00:38:22 <oklopol> ehird: then again AnMaster probably doesn't, so kind of a useless comment on my part.
00:38:35 <oklopol> ehird: this here is also a useless comment.
00:38:44 <ehird> oklopol: USELOSSITY
00:39:55 <oklopol> so who here has filmed a movie
00:40:20 <zzo38> I have filmed a movie once, it was called "AAA Candid Camera" and it didn't have to do much with Candid Camera
00:40:40 <zzo38> I have the DVD in my drawer
00:41:09 <OoS> Even the BF Joust test hill is no longer online :-(
00:41:19 <zzo38> The DVD even says "all region" and "*UOP-FREE*" on the label
00:41:36 <OoS> Used to be here - http://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/bf/
00:41:39 <zzo38> Let me check the length of the movie
00:42:07 <ais523> I'm getting impatient, I may start a new version myself soon
00:42:18 <ais523> maybe I'll code a test hill in INTERCAL or something tonight
00:42:44 <ais523> time to go home anyway
00:42:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:43:11 <zzo38> The movie I made is approx. one hour long
00:43:32 <oklopol> zzo38: oh, then i want to see it.
00:44:25 <zzo38> oklopol: Let's see whether you can see it. If I can do it somehow to make you able to see it. Should I post the DVD ISO file or something like that
00:45:04 <oklopol> well a direct download of avi is most preferable for me ofc.
00:45:32 <oklopol> but i can do with the iso too prolly
00:45:46 <oklopol> although i'm a bit afraid of things that complicated here in linuxville
00:45:50 <zzo38> So far, you can at least see the label and list of chapters, at http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dvdmenus/ but I cannot post the movie just yet (maybe later I can?)
00:45:56 <ehird> oklopol: burning an iso = double click, select drive
00:46:17 <oklopol> ehird: heh, well okay that does sound kinda easy
00:46:26 <oklopol> but i'm not sure this oldie has a dvd drive actually
00:48:51 <zzo38> It is a comedy movie
00:48:56 <oklopol> zzo38: if that happens, do tell; also sorry about the genuine interest, i'm a weird dude.
00:49:43 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:49:59 <zzo38> Should I post on your esolang wiki user-page if the movie is posted on internet?
00:50:33 <oklopol> i mostly use this thing here for communication
00:51:18 <zzo38> If I posted it on IRC, if you happened to be not on, would you still read the logs? (Of course if you are current on IRC, that would be better)
00:51:41 <oklopol> zzo38: i have a phase in life where i don't read logs.
00:53:22 <zzo38> The movie has hardly been edited actually. First I recorded from video camera directly to VHS, and then edit it on computer (the only thing actually edited was some parts removed and some text added to the screen for some parts of the movie), and then put on DVD
00:53:37 <zzo38> So, you would know, I wasn't very good at it at the time
00:54:09 <zzo38> But I still like the way the movie turned out. Nothing worth selling for money, but for stuff you don't have to pay, it is a good movie in my opinion
00:54:41 <oklopol> i'm more interesting in content than in quality
00:55:28 <zzo38> The content isn't something you would ask money for, but other than that it is good
00:56:23 <zzo38> All the mistakes we made while filming (except for blank parts) have been kept in and not deleted
01:01:20 <zzo38> One scene consists entirely of a phone on speakerphone
01:01:40 <zzo38> One scene consists of a ZZT game
01:01:47 <zzo38> A few scenes consist of pokemon battles
01:01:48 * kerlo goes to theorderofsticks.wordpress.com and gets slightly angry
01:02:13 <ehird> yeesh, apparently people who like order of the stick are illogical
01:05:42 -!- OoS has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
01:07:30 <GregorR> A bi-racial couple on an eHarmony commercial!
01:07:50 <GregorR> Every other couple they've shown have not only been the same race, but male/female clones of each other.
01:10:20 <kerlo> Is there an easy way for me to send you money, should I ever want to do so?
01:11:48 <zzo38> In one scene the computer has too much lego on it. But that is because the person complaining put the legos there
01:13:37 <kerlo> GregorR: also, may I unintentionally distribute your Neural Color Matcher?
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01:13:59 <zzo38> Charizard keeps breaking the computer!
01:14:09 <zzo38> What would *you* do if Charizard kept breaking your computer?
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01:14:22 <oklopol> i don't believe in charizards
01:14:24 <GregorR> kerlo: Paypal AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , I'd prefer hotlinks but distribution is fine.
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01:14:37 <zzo38> Even if the problem was easy to fix and took only a few seconds?
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01:15:02 <oklopol> zzo38: i still wouldn't believe in them
01:15:40 <zzo38> You don't have to believe in Charizards. What would you do if it happened anyways?
01:16:09 <oklopol> i don't plan for stuff that has 0 probability of happening
01:16:26 <oklopol> but umm i guess i have the capability to do so now.
01:16:34 <oklopol> i would probably do nothing.
01:16:43 <zzo38> Assume it happened anyways because you are a character in a movie where such things can happen
01:17:23 <oklopol> i would buy a computer so bright light couldn't escape its surface
01:18:10 <oklopol> ...and you know it couldn't break it maybe
01:19:00 <oklopol> well. should probably go to sleep, i practically am already
01:19:22 <zzo38> Guess what was the problem with the computer in the movie that Charizard broke, I will tell you if you are correct or incorrect
01:20:08 <zzo38> No. It didn't overheat
01:20:13 <zzo38> It was a laptop computer
01:20:24 <zzo38> Charizard slammed the lid closed
01:20:31 <zzo38> It was easy to fix, just open the computer again
01:20:41 <zzo38> The trainer didn't understand computer and thought the computer was broken
01:21:32 <oklopol> right; well then i would prevent the closing of the lid with a small object
01:21:43 <zzo38> The movie makes about as much sense as Monty Python
01:21:47 <oklopol> and you know give C a spanking
01:22:41 <GregorR> "You've been a naughty programming language!"
01:23:15 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
01:23:33 <oklopol> i should probably give you some money too
01:25:16 <kerlo> Wait, have I started a giving-GregorR-money fad?
01:26:29 <zzo38> GregorR: What are you selling?
01:27:04 <GregorR> zzo38: YE CAN NEVERR TEK MAH FREEDOM (but you can buy some!)
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01:27:44 <GregorR> Apparently he didn't have enough money to buy some freedom *shrugs*
01:29:26 <oklopol> i hear his movies aren't doing that well, this is just hearsay, but apparently his last movie made zero profit
01:30:39 <GregorR> He shot himself in the foot with The Wurve of The Jebus
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01:34:42 <GregorR> Oh no, a moon of Mars has somehow fallen to Earth!
01:35:40 <deimos706> is this chat about esoteric and the occult and things
01:36:41 <oklopol> did someone explain this new phenomenon already?
01:36:49 <oklopol> deimos706: nope, not really, no.
01:36:56 <GregorR> "Not really"? Not even slightly.
01:37:19 <oklopol> GregorR: you're just not looking deep enough i thinks.
01:37:47 <GregorR> This channel pertains to esoteric programming languages and models of computation, you'll find that FreeNode is predominantly geared towards computer-related stuff.
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01:39:51 <GregorR> If our /topic had any topic in it, he wouldn't have asked ;)
01:40:45 <oklopol> ehird: i assume you're most likely to be able to explain why these people keep popping up here, i don't think that's always happened this frequently
01:40:53 <oklopol> and sorry if i should already know.
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01:44:38 <GregorR> Incidentally, is anybody surprised that (s)he was in Alabama? :P
01:44:55 <Sgeo_> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/non-ports/
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01:48:50 <GregorR> I'm thinking about reviving SPS>
01:48:59 <GregorR> I wonder if anybody would consider it useful ...
01:51:38 <Sgeo_> Any good Mezzacotta lately?
01:52:27 <GregorR> Sgeo_: http://www.nongnu.org/sps/
01:53:12 <Sgeo_> I'm.. not sure I understand'
01:54:34 <GregorR> With SPS, /usr is sort of a dynamic union filesystem.
01:54:44 <GregorR> And you specify what packages, and what versions of them, you want to see.
01:55:02 <Sgeo_> How is this different from regular apt?
01:55:18 <GregorR> Every user, and in fact every process, can have their own environment.
01:55:54 <GregorR> So for example, if you have a program that needs GCC 3 to compile, rather than installing both and then figuring out how to convince it to use 'gcc-3.4' instead of 'gcc', you type sps with 'gcc < 4:4' -- make
01:56:10 <comex> I was imagining something like that
01:56:21 <comex> I mean, the recent security protections on windows are just cat and mouse
01:56:47 <comex> the solution is sandboxing
01:57:10 <Sgeo_> GregorR, make it universal!
01:57:15 <comex> not that SPS is a sandbox
01:57:27 <comex> but you would have to use a filesystem like that
01:57:37 <comex> however, mounting /usr with fuse sounds slow to me :/
01:57:54 <Sgeo_> GregorR, get it in Debian and get application authors using it
01:58:07 <comex> also, written in D?
01:58:37 <GregorR> comex: The former point is why I stopped working on it; it is slow :(. I'm rewriting it in C, recent shakeups in the D community have made me shy away a bit more.
02:00:53 <Sgeo_> ehird, did you read the latest Fine Structure?
02:00:59 <Sgeo_> Be sure to read Sam's comments
02:01:32 <comex> though I dunno, I wouldn't mind a language that compiles directly to machine code but implements foreach
02:03:38 <GregorR> comex: D is a nice language, I still like it as a language, it's just in an ... unfortunate state right now.
02:05:28 <comex> gregorR: is a C-like D program as fast as a C program?
02:07:30 <GregorR> comex: Modulo garbage collection, yes.
02:07:43 <GregorR> comex: D is on http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ btw.
02:08:54 <comex> GregorR: clicked on a random link
02:08:55 <comex> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=fannkuch&lang=all
02:09:08 <comex> d is nowhere there
02:09:41 <Ilari> If one has sufficient privs, fork with new namespace and overlay /usr with something suitable? :-)
02:10:25 <GregorR> Ilari: That would require a huge pile of symlink farms.
02:10:35 <GregorR> Ilari: Which isn't necessarily an impossibility, but bleh.
02:10:43 <Ilari> GregorR: Or using Fuse?
02:14:06 <Ilari> GregorR: Well, at least it wouldn't require rest of the system to be using Fuse for /usr...
02:49:37 <GregorR> Why IS Fuse so slow? Is it just the sheer number of context switches, or ...?
03:38:43 <Ilari> GregorR: Linux VFS is quite fast. So two context swaps and presumably additional VFS call really add up... And there might be additional factors adding even more slowness...
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04:05:08 <comex> just write a kernel driver
04:05:15 <comex> or figure out why fuse is slow
04:05:33 <comex> so ntfs-3g isn't so suck
04:06:05 <comex> though is that true?
04:06:06 <comex> http://www.ntfs-3g.org/performance.html
04:07:03 <comex> purports to be comparable to other FS even without the optimizations in the shitty commercial version
04:28:21 <GregorR> cunionfs.c:280: error: unknown field βreaddirβ specified in initializer
04:28:43 <GregorR> This is filling a fuse_operations
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12:44:04 * AnMaster had his client restart several times after each other today, thus no scrollbacl
12:44:22 <AnMaster> "* Now talking on #esoteric * BeholdMyGlory (n=BeholdMy@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se) has joined #esoteric"
12:44:29 <AnMaster> well with newline there of course
12:45:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, what is the problem he has
12:46:17 <oklopol> i *may* just be hungry enough to make me some food
12:46:33 <oklopol> that'd be cool, food is awesome
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13:00:17 <nooga> idk how to parse function application in new SADOL, because i made functions forst class citizens... eg. :f3 {1}f12{/1} :f~2+#_0#_1 {2}f12{/2}
13:00:55 <nooga> in 1st case f12 yields 312 and in the 2nd case f eats 1 and 2
13:01:39 <nooga> so parser must know what is function and when, in parse time
13:01:52 <nooga> and it must know how much arguments function takes
13:02:17 <nooga> yea, but i'm writing a compiler :D
13:02:42 <oklopol> iirc my shortest quicksort version already used functions as if they were forst-class citizens
13:03:27 <oklopol> anyway the behavior was so random i couldn't get it finished
13:07:51 <nooga> also i tried to enable multichar ids
13:08:51 <nooga> but then parser would be quite twisted
13:08:56 <oklopol> glass uses parens around multichar ids
13:11:55 <nooga> i planned to use spaces
13:12:19 <nooga> but by definition SADOL pisses on whitespace
13:17:40 <nooga> it's already quite fast
13:18:49 <nooga> next step is to add macros and enable calling external functions
13:18:56 <nooga> opengl in SADOL? :D
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13:39:46 <nooga> )"7glBegin$1"8GL_LINES
13:48:24 <nooga> {#call glBegin GL_LINES}
13:49:09 <oklopol> what a terrible obfuscation facility!
13:50:11 <nooga> and currying is for wimps
13:50:23 <oklopol> err actually i guess facility works, my english deteriorates by the day
13:50:56 <oklopol> or then i'm just more paranoid about correctness.
13:52:24 <oklopol> well. need to go eat a burger and you know read algebra.
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14:21:02 <nooga> http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/Brazil/
14:30:21 <nooga> oklopol: reindeer burger?
14:51:09 <comex> I wish there was a sort of . operator in bash
15:09:43 <nooga> which would do what?
15:21:19 <comex> (wget . inkscape) http://url/something.svg
15:21:29 <comex> but that would require some intelligence :p
15:21:30 <comex> and yes it's backwards
15:28:17 <nooga> probably it can be done
15:28:53 <nooga> comp (wget . inkscape) htpp://blah
15:29:02 <nooga> but you must write comp ;p
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16:00:20 <ehird> 01:00 Sgeo_: ehird, did you read the latest Fine Structure?
16:00:23 <ehird> no i don't read fs
16:00:27 <ehird> 00:35 deimos706: hello
16:00:27 <ehird> 00:35 deimos706: is this chat about esoteric and the occult and things
16:00:48 <ehird> GregorR: SPS is too advanced. either stick with package managers or get the real solution, a capability based OS
16:01:13 <ehird> also: union mounting /usr sounds funny whereby funny I mean SHIT SLOW
16:01:49 <Judofyr> ta-da! bin/forter works :-)
16:04:36 <Judofyr> it wasn't really that hardβ¦
16:05:15 <Judofyr> but Ruby isn't really the best language for parsing
16:05:41 <ehird> parsing in general
16:05:43 <ehird> it could be so much simpler
16:06:05 <Judofyr> why haven't anyone (like you :P) done something about it?
16:06:17 <ehird> cuz it's hard to make it simpler :)
16:06:47 <ehird> Judofyr: but -- Haskell's Parsec and our Redivider: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider are steps in the right direction
16:07:03 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Underload_Interpreter
16:07:08 <ehird> admittedly that runs as well as parses
16:07:10 <ehird> but it's a good example
16:08:01 <Judofyr> I guess Haskell is something I should learn?
16:08:10 <ehird> Redivider is basically parsec as a regexp-tarpit with syntax :-)
16:08:16 <ehird> Judofyr: If you ask me, absolutely
16:08:25 <ehird> It's probably my favourite language
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16:20:22 <Judofyr> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte
16:20:56 <oerjan> <oklopol> that'd be cool, food is awesome
16:21:12 <oerjan> well, it beats being angry because you're hungry *munch*
16:22:03 <Judofyr> btw, I've been playing with a little language called Regland (maybe I've mentioned it before)
16:22:21 <Judofyr> it's a "self-parsing" language
16:22:32 <oerjan> i assume it's a regular duck language
16:22:35 <Judofyr> instead of variables, you define syntax
16:23:27 <Judofyr> /(\d+)/ @ %ruby { return integer }
16:23:54 <Judofyr> integers will be implemented in itself
16:25:05 <Judofyr> it will have built-in blocks/lambda/function
16:25:46 <Judofyr> it's basically implemented as a loop which matches regex'es
16:26:38 <nooga> is there a way to define syntax for defining syntax ?
16:26:38 <Judofyr> I'm bootstrapping it with the default syntax
16:27:17 <nooga> and then create potentially infinite abstraction levels?
16:27:22 <Judofyr> there are two ways to define syntax, using = and using @
16:27:28 <Judofyr> = simply sets it to the object
16:27:42 <Judofyr> so /s/ = { 123 }; then s will return a block
16:28:13 <Judofyr> @ will evaluate the given block
16:28:16 <nooga> /sex/ = 666 will become /123ex/ = 666
16:28:26 <Judofyr> so /s/ @ { 123 }; s will return 123
16:29:35 <Judofyr> /thing/ is more like a string
16:30:41 <Judofyr> it's also prototype-based language
16:31:09 <Judofyr> so /thing/ is an object whose parent is Matcher (whose parent is Object)
16:31:36 <Judofyr> I could for instance do: Matcher /something/ = 123
16:31:37 <nooga> how about defining way of expressing constants
16:31:54 <Judofyr> then '/something/ something' returns 123
16:32:13 <nooga> if i'd like to have: ababc => 12123
16:33:05 <Judofyr> then you could define a syntax: /ababc/ = 12123
16:33:17 <Judofyr> everytime Regland sees "ababc" it will return 12123
16:33:26 <nooga> and: ababc .-._.- ba => 12123 + 21
16:34:05 <nooga> that's a bit uncool
16:34:53 <Judofyr> Regland won't match unless there's a non-alpha right after the match, or the last char in the match
16:35:17 <Judofyr> so "hell" will never match "hello"
16:36:04 <Judofyr> but "hell o" might (then it will match the "hell" part and continue parsing)
16:37:36 <Judofyr> but in your example, you could /[abc]+/ @ { build int from match }
16:38:02 <ehird> Judofyr: sounds like it could be interesting.
16:38:26 <Judofyr> together with Integer /\.-\._\.-/ = (Integer +)
16:39:31 <Judofyr> I'm going to write the core in a Ruby DSL, then the rest will be implemented in Regland (together with %ruby{}-blocks)
16:40:28 <ehird> what is it with rubyists and dsls
16:41:27 <Judofyr> let's me focus on the definition, not the objects behind
16:41:59 <Judofyr> wraps Regland's objects together with Ruby's classes
16:42:24 <Judofyr> anyway. time for dinner :-)
16:46:37 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Albions
16:49:36 <ehird> "NOTICE: The data below is posted by a program which is part of the Graffiti research project from Brown University. We will remove the data from your site once the experiment is finished. If you want to delete this, please do so as you would delete a spam page. For more information, please visit http://graffiti.cs.brown.edu/info/. "
16:49:45 <ehird> It's trying to share files via mediawiki.
16:49:51 <ehird> Someone report them to... something.
16:51:13 <ehird> http://www.cs.brown.edu/~pavlo/ No email. wonderful
16:51:27 <ehird> ah, it's pavlo@cs.brown.edu
16:51:35 <ehird> Time to write a complaint.
16:53:29 <Slereah_> SICP has arrived on the French textboard D:
16:53:56 * ehird sends angry email.
16:54:14 <oerjan> what the heck they did it in _two_ articles
16:54:30 <ehird> oerjan: one of them got subtly changed by zzo38
16:54:46 <oerjan> well they're probably going to get sued...
16:54:53 <ehird> oerjan: their site laughs it off.
16:55:07 <Slereah_> But I don't think people will take it
16:55:11 <ehird> Shit-for-brains immature retards. Too dangerous to be using a computer.
16:55:22 <Slereah_> It takes up space on them wikis
16:55:28 <oerjan> they're american. all it takes is for them to hit a corporate american wiki, sure?
16:55:40 <oerjan> admittedly those may not be few
16:55:55 <oerjan> well, something affiliated with a corporation
16:56:14 <ehird> Hope they hit wikipedia
16:56:18 <Slereah_> Are there any that are widely available?
16:56:29 <ehird> But yeah, bastards.
16:57:04 <oerjan> they did it even _after_ a reviewer pointed out what a bad idea it was, iirc
16:57:27 <ehird> look at their site
16:57:34 <oerjan> heck, they might end up expelled for it
16:57:35 <ehird> two out of 4 entries are about being banned/rejected
16:57:44 <ehird> (and one of the others is about submitting the one that was rejected)
16:57:54 <ehird> oerjan: i dunno - they got a subdomain
16:57:57 <oerjan> unless they're professors with tuition, hm...
16:58:10 <ehird> http://www.cs.brown.edu/~pavlo/
16:58:11 <ehird> http://www.cs.brown.edu/~ning/
16:58:40 <ehird> my opinion of that uni just went down
16:58:42 <oerjan> ehird: the link they give on the wiki points back to brown.edu
16:58:57 <ehird> graffiti.cs.brown.edu
16:59:00 <ehird> so they got a subdomain approved for it
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17:04:10 <oerjan> hm, "We are only planning to store one piece of data on each unique MediaWiki site."
17:04:28 <oerjan> they probably hit both esolangs.org and voxelperfect.net, then
17:05:57 <Slereah_> Plus, if they do that, they won't be able to do shit
17:06:13 <Slereah_> A movie would probably take up the space of every damn wiki
17:06:43 -!- neldoreth|lp has quit (Client Quit).
17:06:44 <ehird> also, data changing, reversion ...
17:06:55 <ehird> it's a terrible idea even if it did work, but it doesn't.
17:12:21 <ehird> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Wadler%27s_Law
17:16:33 <ehird> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1239439150/18
17:19:14 <oerjan> they cheated on lexical comments!
17:20:08 <oerjan> you cannot put a string containing "-}" inside {- -} comments, for example
17:20:19 <oerjan> so you cannot escape all code that way :)
17:20:33 <ehird> oerjan: just use cpp! duh!
17:21:02 <oerjan> that's not an official part of haskell though
17:22:41 <nooga> Judofyr: another question
17:22:48 <nooga> {} blocks will be written in?
17:23:00 <ehird> the language I assum
17:23:23 <Judofyr> but you can use %ruby{} to run Ruby
17:24:07 <Judofyr> I think however that I have to make them indent-based
17:24:24 <Judofyr> how else am I going to parse them?
17:24:39 <ehird> i think this language lacks a certain sense of direction
17:25:25 <nooga> how arithmetics look in pure Regland?
17:25:52 <oerjan> ehird: it probably points into the fifth dimension
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17:26:35 <Judofyr> nooga: the purest way is: 1 +(2), since + is a block
17:27:28 <Judofyr> but you can also turn + into a syntax which fetches the next token
17:27:46 <Judofyr> Integers won't be defined in the core-language anyway
17:29:54 <Judofyr> I also plan on making it possible to remove all the current regex'es and define your own
17:30:40 <Judofyr> so you can write "I WANT BRAINFUCK" and suddenly all the regex'es matches Brainfuck
17:31:02 <Judofyr> "KTHXBYE" = back in Regland again
17:31:44 <ehird> this is essentially Metalogic-- :-
17:32:40 <ehird> The tentative name for my in-head language that is based entirely around semantics arising out of redefining the infinite layers of the language being the prorgam.
17:32:56 <ehird> "Metalogic--" where -- is the C sense.
17:34:55 <nooga> ehird: start implementing then
17:38:48 <ehird> it's been simmering for years
17:38:51 <ehird> it's still perfecting itself
17:40:09 <Judofyr> ehird: still, when you're going to implement it, you'll discover things you haven't thought of and maybe need to rethink some parts
17:40:42 <ehird> It's incredibly simple but on the other hand infinite levels of abstraction are kind of hard to implement with non-infinitely-abstracted things.
17:47:01 <Deewiant> Argh, I just realized that I'm essentially doing an unbounded and variable number of function calls whilst expecting the stack pointer to not move
17:47:21 <nooga> i imagine such language as a language, let's say L0, which allows you to program and define language L1 that is reducable to L0 statements and allows to do exactly same things as L0, and thus Ln+1 is reducable to Ln, so programs written in every Ln where n>0 will be reduced to runnable L0 program
17:47:44 <ehird> nooga: oh, it's far more intricate than that
17:47:53 <ehird> it solves the inelegance of multiple levels by turning it up to infinity
17:48:02 <Deewiant> This is a bit unfortunate, I'll need a global
17:48:43 <ehird> nooga: if it makes sense, you are infinitely intelligent.
17:48:47 <ehird> so don't feel too bad.
17:48:53 <Deewiant> Hmm, actually I could put stuff in the XMM registers
17:49:25 <Deewiant> It'll probably use more code size but I'd rather avoid the global on principle
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17:52:12 <nooga> in L0: + prints "howdy", ?xy says that y will be translated to x and then executed as L0, +?+-??! -!-*!!E *E*xEEX xXx.XX, and so on
17:52:53 <nooga> in the most simple form
17:53:15 <ehird> simple and inelegant is a bad combination
17:53:29 <nooga> howdy howdy howdy howdy
17:53:35 <oerjan> ehird: if he's infinitely intelligent, shouldn't he be wandering over to yudkowsky to help out?
17:54:13 <ehird> implying he didn't understand
17:54:17 <ehird> and thus was finitely intelligent
17:55:15 <oerjan> i thought the "if it makes sense" was just an empty phrase
17:55:20 <nooga> i'm a walking proof that some people are stupid
17:56:19 <oerjan> what a shame, here we could have solved the Friendly AI problem with a Friendly BI
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17:57:32 <ehird> I don't think the singularity implies infinite intelligence; I'm not sure the concept even makes sense
17:58:09 <nooga> i doub that intelligence is measurable
17:58:25 <ehird> Most things are measurable.
17:58:29 <oerjan> there would probably be a tower of infinities in theory there too
17:58:44 <ehird> Not measurable to any intelligable degree by us, maybe
17:58:52 <oerjan> for banana scheme and such
18:00:22 <ehird> "It's 2040 and nerds in old-folks homes are wandering around, scratching their heads, and asking plaintively, 'But ... but, where's the Singularity?'"
18:03:07 <nooga> i've read something by VV
18:03:24 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_Vinge#Novels
18:03:33 <nooga> Fire Upon the Deep
18:03:44 <ehird> That's around the time he described the singularity.
18:05:07 * oerjan wonders. if the hard problems of AI are not logic but things that other animals can do, does that mean e.g. a chimpanzee is in some sense 99% as intelligent as a human?
18:05:31 <ehird> oerjan: I'm not sure the hypothetical holds.
18:05:40 <ehird> Seems a bit arbitrary
18:05:54 <oerjan> ehird: i read something like that somewhere
18:06:06 <oerjan> basically computers easily do logic games
18:06:06 <ehird> Well, I'm not sure 99%.
18:06:09 <ehird> 99% seems a bit much.
18:06:16 <ehird> chimps are certainly intelligent, though.
18:06:27 <oerjan> but it's very hard to do things like vision
18:06:55 <ehird> oerjan: doing 100% precise logic puzzles isn't really much of a part of intelligence
18:07:18 <oerjan> well we know that _now_
18:07:28 <oerjan> oh right, there is also common sense
18:07:42 <oerjan> which includes many things only humans have
18:07:47 <ehird> and fuzzy reasoning
18:07:49 <ehird> and, to a degree, emotions
18:07:52 <oerjan> so scratch at least some of that
18:07:59 <ehird> without emotions we probably wouldn't last very long
18:08:18 <ehird> oerjan: "common sense" is hideously vague, really
18:08:22 <ehird> it's just learned behaviour imo
18:08:23 <GregorR> I argue that the fundamental difference between humans and other great apes is not that we're wildly more intelligent (although we certainly are), but that we have the specific intelligence of being able to communicate abstract ideas. Without this, very clever creatures can accomplish very little.
18:08:39 <ehird> GregorR: That seems logical.
18:11:40 <GregorR> Apparently my argument was SO COMPELLING that everybody's done arguing :P
18:12:02 <oerjan> http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/vinge/longnow/
18:12:35 <GregorR> <ehird> and, to a degree, emotions // I doubt highly that there are any emotions we have that chimpanzees don't.
18:12:39 <oerjan> (slides to a talk by vinge with that quote)
18:12:46 <ehird> I never said anything else, GregorR
18:12:55 <ehird> oerjan: it was in an article on kurzweilai thingy
18:13:12 <ehird> http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0696.html?m=1
18:13:23 <ehird> http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0696.html?printable=1
18:13:31 <ehird> it's the same hting
18:13:38 <ehird> but mine has images
18:15:13 <oerjan> i thought you had just picked it off a signature or something :)
18:15:43 -!- ehird has set topic: Everything but esoteric programming languages. Trading card games, the singularity, memes, but NO. ESOLANGS. No exceptions. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
18:16:01 <oerjan> no more cheerful topic eh?
18:16:54 <oerjan> should we have memes? isn't that more a 4chan thing
18:17:06 <ehird> Whether we should is irrelevant.
18:18:07 <GregorR> So, how 'bout that kipple.
18:18:44 <GregorR> I, uh, I said "How 'bout some kibble"!
18:20:20 <oerjan> what about kippers in kibble?
18:24:00 <ehird> what about GREAT HUGE BUTTS.
18:25:24 <oerjan> no thanks, i'm not that hungry
18:39:11 * ehird has a .h file with a DEC copyright on his system
18:39:26 <ehird> Copyright 1987 by Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, Massachusetts
18:39:26 <ehird> All Rights Reserved
18:43:04 <GregorR> I find that entirely unsurprising.
18:44:15 <GregorR> Guess waht? I have files copyright Linus Torvalds!
18:45:57 <nooga> taht wuz sooo epic
18:46:56 <GregorR> I wonder if it would be worth the headache for my /usr FUSE mount to present everything as symlinks instead of files.
18:47:17 <GregorR> The only caveat is that programs that follow their own symlinks to look for other files may end up in the wrong place.
18:47:39 <GregorR> Programs with compiled-in prefixes or simple PATH lookups would be fine.
18:47:42 <ehird> SPS sux like I said :-D
18:48:09 <GregorR> Your argument is solely on the speed of FUSE-mounting /usr, and that can be fixed by simply creating a kernel module to do the same.
18:48:21 <GregorR> The only problem is that "simply", isn't.
18:48:28 <ehird> I critiqued the idea.
18:48:40 <GregorR> Then I have the wrong argument!
18:48:47 <ehird> GregorR: I'll summarize
18:48:48 <ehird> since I wasn't clear
18:48:55 <ehird> a proper, system-wide dependency system is the right way forward
18:49:00 <ehird> ofc, you can't really do that on top of an existing os
18:49:25 <GregorR> Right. There is a prerequisite that this be on top of an existing OS though.
18:49:32 <GregorR> If it isn't, then you can go crazy of course.
18:49:38 <GregorR> But I'd like this to be incremental.
18:49:41 <ehird> GregorR: I've never really had a need...
18:49:44 <ehird> why can't you just do
18:49:50 <GregorR> Individuals should never have a need.
18:49:58 <GregorR> It's only useful for things like university systems.
18:50:03 <ehird> ln -s gcc-3.2 ~/tmp/gcc; PATH=~/tmp/gcc:$PATH program
18:50:57 <GregorR> nooga: http://www.nongnu.org/sps/
18:50:58 <GregorR> Sounds simple enough, until you start adding packages with complicated dependencies, shared object files, ...
18:51:31 <ehird> GregorR: I propose suicide.
18:51:43 <ehird> WOW, Eclipse is the slowest thing evar
18:52:21 <ehird> it takes like five seconds to open a file WTF
18:52:55 <ehird> GregorR: if it's a university system
18:52:58 <ehird> htf did you get root to mount /sur
18:53:13 <GregorR> ehird: An admin would have to set things up initially in any case.
18:53:28 <GregorR> ehird: This is supposed to be something that admins provide to users, not that users provide to themselves.
18:53:52 <ehird> this is sounding less and less useful
18:54:09 <GregorR> I can only guess that you were imaging it as something that it's not intended to be *shrugs*
18:55:16 <GregorR> Here's the fundamental reason for its existence: You're an admin, you manage a bunch of systems, and get a quadrillion package requests per $PERIOD_OF_TIME. These packages are sometimes in conflict, often people need specific versions, and generally it's a PITA. SO, you use SPS on /usr, and install whatever people want (within reason), allowing them to pick and choose what they see.
18:55:35 <ehird> GregorR: You mean it's a hideously complex ~/local/bin
18:56:10 <GregorR> A) It's not actually that complex, B) It's substantially more powerful and general.
18:56:26 <GregorR> (Oh, I forgot to mention, the admin doesn't necessarily have to install the packages, the user could simply download a deb and install it into their own cache)
19:05:48 <ehird> Judofyr: does your forte handle the whitespace?
19:05:54 <ehird> 1 0PR IN T"Hello, world!"
19:06:19 <Judofyr> I have a little method which cleans up
19:06:37 <ehird> Judofyr: link to your interp?
19:06:43 <Judofyr> http://github.com/judofyr/forter
19:07:04 <Judofyr> http://github.com/judofyr/forter/blob/69cf67cec0530cdc505ed7dd6cde564fdf2998b4/lib/forter.rb
19:07:16 <ehird> heh, ais523 will get angry at the githubness
19:07:30 <ehird> (he refuses to use it because of the no-ad-blocking clause in the ToS)
19:07:36 <Judofyr> http://github.com/judofyr/forter/blob/69cf67cec0530cdc505ed7dd6cde564fdf2998b4/lib/grammar.tt
19:09:29 <GregorR> "Quality is enterprise ' life, Innovation is enterprise ' soul"
19:09:55 <ehird> Judofyr: why on earth did you have to do __magic__ to get something this simple working?
19:10:00 <ehird> that's something I often encountered with ruby
19:10:15 <Judofyr> talking about SimpleDelegator?
19:10:19 <ehird> http://github.com/judofyr/forter/blob/69cf67cec0530cdc505ed7dd6cde564fdf2998b4/lib/forter.rb#L41
19:11:19 <ehird> Judofyr: I just have a map of {int=>int}...
19:11:38 <ehird> Judofyr: does yours eliminate steps?
19:12:07 <ehird> otherwise you get slowdowns as time goes on
19:12:21 <Judofyr> I've implemented it in Rubyβ¦
19:12:27 <Judofyr> do you think I care about speed?
19:13:23 <ehird> unspeakably wrong.
19:13:46 <ehird> speed is optimizing the implementation; efficiency is not having every program crawl to a halt really quickly
19:14:00 <ehird> removing cycles is three line of code
19:14:34 <ehird> err, see my explanation above.
19:14:37 <ehird> speed is not efficiency
19:17:39 <Judofyr> I haven't so many choices in Ruby
19:18:03 <ehird> that's why all the real rubyists use haskell</troll troll troll troll>
19:18:24 <Judofyr> Parsing/compiling/interpreting isn't Ruby's job
19:18:43 <ehird> Judofyr: nor is text processing
19:18:44 <nooga> RDParser + severap maps
19:18:46 <ehird> nor is running anything efficiently
19:18:48 <nooga> and compiler ready ;d
19:18:53 <ehird> hmm what can it do again?
19:18:56 <ehird> oh yeah run a blog
19:19:04 <ehird> oh, or an IRC bot!
19:19:56 <nooga> i'm writing SADOLv3 compiler in ruby and then i'll bootstrap it
19:20:31 <ehird> parsecccccccccccccccccc
19:21:59 <ehird> wow, GregorR uses haskell
19:22:04 <ehird> wouldn't have guessed
19:22:34 <ehird> dunno, you seemed more the D type.
19:22:53 <ehird> 19:18 Judofyr: Parsing/compiling/interpreting isn't Ruby's job
19:23:30 <ehird> if you'll be pedantic about ... vs β¦
19:23:43 <oerjan> wait, are you unicoding bastards at it again
19:24:02 <GregorR> WE SPEAK ENGLISH, JESUS' LANGUAGE.
19:24:04 <Judofyr> meh, it's all ' on my keyboard
19:24:45 <ehird> Judofyr: I was pointing out that you're a hypocrite for demanding β¦ but using '
19:24:51 <oerjan> it's a marvel the jews understood him, really
19:25:12 <GregorR> oerjan: What with him having predated the only language he spoke by a thousand years.
19:26:48 <nooga> Perl 6 will be extremely awesome
19:27:05 <ehird> second system syndrome at its finest
19:27:29 <GregorR> Unless by "awesome" you mean "awesome" in the classic vernacular, like "Hitler's awesome power"
19:27:50 -!- ehird has set topic: Hitler's awesome power. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:27:57 <oerjan> actually i think godwin's law says you lose
19:28:00 <ehird> <lilo> Please change the topic.
19:28:15 <GregorR> Well, when ghosts start asserting power, it's time to change the topic.
19:28:16 <ehird> oerjan: it says nothing about lossage
19:28:26 <ehird> <lilo> I AM A JEW IN HEAVEN
19:28:40 <ehird> <lilo> I was killed in the holocaust on a bike in 2006
19:28:57 <ehird> #esoteric: Reality is often incorrect.
19:29:02 -!- GregorR has set topic: Hitler's awesome power: HE SHOT LASER BEAMS FROM HIS EYES http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:29:18 <ehird> <lilo> Hitler shot me with a laser beam from his eyes. As a car.
19:29:20 <oerjan> ehird: ok, that's a common variation
19:29:49 <oerjan> GregorR: also, you really raised quirk's exception
19:30:17 <GregorR> Is that that it doesn't count as Godwin's law if you cite Godwin's law?
19:30:36 <oerjan> or rather, if you use it intentionally
19:30:47 -!- GregorR has set topic: oerjan's awesome power: HE SHOOTS LASER BEAMS FROM HIS EYES http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:31:25 <oerjan> i can neither confirm nor deny that.
19:31:53 -!- ehird has set topic: oerjan is hitler | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:32:07 <GregorR> A real-world version of that would be hilariously unthreatening.
19:32:29 <GregorR> "What's this red dot on my shirt ..." "I'm shooting laser beams from my eyes!" " ... OK?"
19:32:56 <oerjan> stop going around making me look all harmless and fuzzy
19:33:32 <oerjan> well unless you look someone in the eyes, of course
19:33:51 <oerjan> which i think is a violation of international law
19:35:31 <Judofyr> ehird: Real World Haskell is the way to go?
19:35:42 <ehird> Judofyr: Yes, although I like Learn You a Haskell.
19:35:50 <ehird> Judofyr: http://learnyouahaskell.com/.
19:35:55 <ehird> Judofyr: It's very why's (poignant) guide.
19:36:16 <ehird> if you do read learn you I'd do real world haskell after, since it doesn't cover much beyond the language itself
19:36:17 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Weapons
19:36:33 <Judofyr> ah. much better line-height than RWH!
19:36:47 <oerjan> so you can vaporize people all you want, as long as you don't blind them
19:36:55 <ehird> Judofyr: also, it's right: #haskell is awesome
19:37:11 <ehird> second friendliest irc channel
19:37:14 <ehird> save for #esoteric
19:37:24 <ehird> Judofyr: #ruby-lang is all flamewars and grudges and stuff
19:37:29 <ehird> honestly quite tiring imo.
19:37:41 <Judofyr> "Judofyr: no offense, but your ruby-speak is starting to annoy me and likely others as well"
19:37:58 <ehird> & define "ruby-speak"
19:39:00 <Judofyr> ehird: http://pastie.textmate.org/private/js9hcu8mqsx4xl5vsmn4q
19:39:02 <ehird> Judofyr: also, a tip: rabidly avoid anything calling itself a monad tutorial
19:39:04 -!- GregorR has set topic: Dvorak sux QWERTY RULZ LAWL | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:39:34 <ehird> the correct way to understand monads is to just use them without thinking at first (so you can actually write IO-ing programs), learn how haskell works, then you can just look at the definition
19:39:37 <ehird> and it should all come into place
19:39:39 <ehird> that's what i did, at least
19:40:34 <ehird> Judofyr: nothing wrong with that paste -- I bet zenspider said that
19:40:41 <Deewiant> What I did was write something like with State but manually with pairs and 'let', then spent time doing it with State, then stared at the two until I figured it out
19:40:45 <ehird> he seems to have a nack for disliking anything
19:40:56 <ehird> "Monads are like monads"
19:41:02 <Judofyr> ehird: it wasn't him this time, but yeah
19:41:11 <GregorR> I have a knack for disliking spelling "knack" as "nack" :P
19:41:35 <Judofyr> ehird: for one second I almost thought you were elliottcable :P
19:41:46 <Judofyr> for some reason zenspider hates him
19:41:54 <ehird> Judofyr: Ha, I have my own history with elliottcable.
19:41:55 <Judofyr> blocked him from #ruby-lang
19:42:00 <GregorR> Oh, I'm not arguing that "nack" makes marginally more sense as a spelling :P
19:42:16 <Judofyr> heh, ellittcable isn't the most nice/polite person in the world :P
19:42:26 <ehird> elliottcable started a bizarre campaign of trying to annoy me as much as possible :-D
19:42:55 <oerjan> ehird: "this first name is not big enough for the both of us"?
19:43:12 <GregorR> Gracenotes: INTELINGUA MAN
19:43:15 <ehird> It was back in the #ircnomic days. On team UTC-day, all the people who actually played the game. On team UTC-night, everyone who made proposals to permanently break the game for no reason other than laughs.
19:43:18 <ehird> Fight! Fight! Fight!
19:44:25 <Deewiant> Ithkul are a race in Master of Orion 3.
19:44:47 * ehird purchases http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000ETX928/
19:45:05 <Deewiant> Also, my DOBELA interpreter seems to work somewhat.
19:45:45 <ehird> (to install OpenWRT w/ x-wrt on it, of course.)
19:45:58 <ehird> Someone should make a rap in ithkuil
19:46:03 <ehird> It'd be the most literate rap ever since it's so dens
19:46:55 <ehird> ""Translation: As our vehicle leaves the ground and plunges over the edge of the cliff toward the valley floor, I ponder whether it is possible that one might allege I am guilty of an act of moral failure, having failed to maintain a proper course along the roadway. "
19:46:59 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Ithkuil_pull_uiqisx.ogg
19:47:03 <ehird> Pull Μ uΓqiΕ‘x maβwaΕg eΕyaufΓ«nienΛ pΓ€Ε£wΓ―Γ§ auxΓ«βyaΔΌt xneβwΓ―ΔΌtaβΕui tua kit ΓΆllΓ‘ yaqazmuiv liβyΓ―rziΕkaβ pβamαΈΏ aΓ¬loβwΓ«ΔΔa Ε‘uβyehtaΕ
19:47:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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19:48:57 <Gracenotes> a song in ithkuil (period) would be impressive
19:49:06 <Deewiant> [ΛpΚlΛΛ ΚΛΙͺΛqΙͺΚx ΛmaΚwaΚΙ‘ ΙΚjΙΚfΙ€ΛnΙͺΙnΛ ΛpæθwΙ―Γ§ aΚΛxΙ€ΚjaΙ¬t xnΙΚwiΙ¬ΛtaΚΚΚΙͺ tΚa kΙͺt ΕlΛΛaΛ jaΛqazmΚΙͺv lΙͺΚjΙ―ΙΎΛzΙͺΚkaΚ pβamΛΛ aΙͺlΙΛwΙ€tΚΛa ΚΚΚΛjΙhtaΚ]
19:49:58 <ehird> Gracenotes: *"GRUNNUR"
19:50:20 <Gracenotes> yes, I know. the GRUNNUR gets too exciting sometimes
19:50:36 <Gracenotes> I can't help but show others the joy of being GRUNNUR'd inside
19:51:35 <Deewiant> I can't pronounce Ι€ accurately :-/
19:51:47 <Deewiant> At least not followed by a glottal stop
19:52:32 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e5/Ithkuil_sentence.ogg
19:52:35 <ehird> even uglier sounding
19:52:40 <ehird> Romanization: OumpeΓ‘ Γ€xβÀÀļuktΓ«x. Pronunciation: /oum.pΙ.a Γ¦.βkxΓ¦.Ι¬Κk.tΙ€x/
19:52:50 <ehird> ompeaa a kethluch tuck
19:53:18 <ehird> Gracenotes: The forced breaking of the meme density?
19:53:40 <Deewiant> The previous one wasn't ugly though, that was beautiful
19:53:51 <Deewiant> This one's a bit scrunchy I admit
19:54:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:54:16 <oerjan> an oompa loompa in a ketchup truck
19:54:24 <Gracenotes> have you broken the meme density today?
19:54:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:54:36 <ehird> my other breakage of the meme density is.
19:54:58 <ehird> Theory: Every person on /prog/ is in here.
19:55:08 <oerjan> what is a breakage of the meme density?
19:55:27 <Slereah_> I hang out in the elitist superstructure of DQN
19:55:31 <Gracenotes> Slereah_: you are assuming the consequent! :O
19:56:25 <ehird> the graffiti guy responded
19:56:27 <oerjan> consequently, he's assuming
19:56:35 <ehird> [[Our system currently skips sites if we see a CAPTCHA. The simple "puzzle"
19:56:35 <ehird> anti-spam feature is useless; we broke that with 5 lines of Python.]]
19:56:42 <ehird> does he realise what a fuckwit he is?
19:57:31 <Slereah_> I'm sure spammers will make a special program to spam you
19:58:35 <Gracenotes> wow. Dutch is a nice language for singing.
19:58:46 <Slereah_> How often do you get tablecats on /prog/?
19:58:51 <Deewiant> http://www.ithkuil.net/ilaksh/Chapter_11.htm hahaha, this is some funky stuff
19:58:54 <Slereah_> I get the feeling more than usual
19:59:27 <ehird> If only the troupe of clowns had gotten together and destroyed their musical instruments just after performing that lovely recital for us.
20:00:20 <oerjan> you mean humanity might have survived?
20:00:21 <Gracenotes> Deewiant: looks like some cultish religion
20:00:53 <Deewiant> It's brilliant, if I had a year or two to spare I'd learn it
20:01:11 <ehird> Deewiant: nobody's learned it
20:01:14 <ehird> and he's been at it for decadse
20:01:18 <ehird> a year or two is probably not enough
20:01:28 <ehird> Slereah_: quite a lot.
20:01:30 <ehird> Deewiant: well sure
20:02:15 <Slereah_> Maybe I will leave you a tablecat, as a gift.
20:03:08 <Slereah_> oerjan : http://tanasinn.info/wiki/Tablecat
20:03:17 <ehird> oerjan: http://dis.4chan.org/prog/.
20:03:22 <Slereah_> Since /prog/ is a textboard, they are dangerously close to /vip/
20:03:38 <ehird> import Data.Tablecat
20:03:44 <ehird> tablecat :: Tablecat
20:03:48 <ehird> tablecat = makeTableCat "FIOC"
20:03:53 <ehird> main = print tablecat
20:03:54 <Slereah_> Owait, /prog/ doesn't have text art
20:04:37 <ehird> Slereah_: [m]monospace[/m]
20:04:49 <Slereah_> You are aware that SJIS art is not monospaced, right?
20:05:03 <Slereah_> On Kusaba, the tag is [a], but I don't know about shiichan
20:05:05 <ehird> Helping you is not allowed, so I decided to subtly deceive you.
20:05:08 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:05:08 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom.
20:05:21 <ehird> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1239331080/22
20:05:25 <ehird> 't think you need a tag.
20:06:53 <Slereah_> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1/183
20:07:29 <ehird> Slereah_: Son, you need to learn [spoiler][u][sup]BB[/sup][b]CODE[/b][/u][/spoiler].
20:07:56 <Slereah_> ehird : No can do. I do it VIP style.
20:08:08 <Gracenotes> no im from vip, if u make ur own tablecat i will give u access to my private area of YHBT
20:08:44 <Slereah_> Gracenotes : http://img.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1234340335056.jpg
20:08:51 -!- ehird has set topic: /prog/ except somehow even worse | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:09:32 <Slereah_> This one ain't mine, but it's so beautiful : http://tanasinn.info/images/4/42/PayDaddyCool.png
20:11:20 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:12:17 <Gracenotes> it would be similar to LOLCODE, just with a different memeset
20:13:06 <ehird> It would have the worlds first FORCEDLY INDENTED nomads/
20:13:13 <ehird> Assuming we crossover with /prog/.
20:13:24 <Gracenotes> I am already leveraging dynamic synergies in my mouth.
20:13:37 <ehird> Gracenotes: this channel is pg-13.
20:13:40 <Slereah_> It would need car, and my other car.
20:15:32 <Gracenotes> .. http://www.infoforsellingmybusiness.net/
20:15:57 <ehird> The pleasure of selling my business inside.
20:20:21 <Slereah_> ' hello im Mr VacBob the proprietor of World4ch join my community of textboards if you payme enough i will give you access to a secret area of EXPERT SHIICHAN DEVELOPMENT"
20:20:47 <ehird> 20:20 nvoorhies: "regular expressions" makes me think of the pleasant smile of an old man that eats lots of prunes
20:25:28 <Gracenotes> ehird: but not until I apply the [spoiler]pumping lemon[/spoiler]
20:29:23 <Slereah_> Shii love you long time yankee!
20:29:23 <Slereah_> ββββyββββββββββββββββ
20:43:13 <Sgeo> ehird, did you see what I said about Fine Structure?
20:43:22 <ehird> I don't read fine structure
20:43:34 <Sgeo> ehird, I thought you did
20:43:45 <Sgeo> I remember you were upset when I spoiled one of the stories
20:44:22 <ehird> I keep planning to.
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20:49:49 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
20:56:17 -!- fizzieds has joined.
20:57:41 <fizzieds> (Wife reserveded the laptop, had to try this DSOrganize thing.
20:58:38 <fizzieds> Not that I have an IRC problem or anything.
20:59:46 <ehird> fizzieds: what's that monitor you advocated?
21:00:37 <fizzieds> LG L246WH or something, can't quite recall.
21:00:57 <fizzieds> and advocated is too strong a word.
21:01:55 <fizzieds> [can't be bothered to type correct caps, the shift virtual-key takes everything as doubleklick.]
21:03:50 <fizzieds> i'm sure there was a 246 in it. you could grep for lge to find the url if you want to be sure.
21:04:11 <fizzieds> not that i know if they still even make it
21:04:38 <ehird> fizzieds: your ds is a time machine to 2002-2004
21:06:20 <ehird> http://uk.lge.com/products/model/detail/widescreen_l246wh.jhtml
21:06:41 <fizzieds> yes. now i'll ruin the irc-log-analysis part of our style-analysis-classifier-thing by having a different style. fortunately it won't associate this nick with me
21:07:57 <ehird> fizzieds: so hey what year is it
21:08:58 -!- fizzie1 has joined.
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21:09:28 <fizzie1> it said that dsorganize ran out of file handles. heh.
21:10:27 <fizzie1> on the first attempt i got a red screen of death with some 'guru meditation' message. not very stable.
21:10:45 <ehird> Deewiant: you said you built your current machine, right? how painful was it?
21:11:03 <ehird> i'm kind of lazy and i don't trust myself not to break things, but i want to cut custs.
21:11:20 <ehird> Deewiant: how much of a fuss was it
21:11:20 <Deewiant> I don't think I cut myself much or anything :-P
21:11:56 <fizzie1> i usually manage to draw blood whenever i assemble a computer.
21:11:57 <Deewiant> No more of a fuss than any other building of a computer :-P
21:12:08 <ehird> Deewiant: Thanks, you're a real help.
21:12:51 <Deewiant> It booted on the first try, though, so I guess it went pretty well
21:13:14 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm referring more to how many "if I don't get this part just right I'll have a heavy paperweight" points there are :-P
21:13:23 <fizzie1> [i believe the blood sacrifice part is why i've never managed to break any components.]
21:14:10 <Deewiant> ehird: The CPU came with a wire permanently attached to it which said words to the effect of 'if you attach this to the motherboard you will fry this CPU'
21:14:29 <Deewiant> I broke the label saying that off accidentally, I hope I don't forget
21:14:32 <ehird> Deewiant: how much dickery with thermal paste? God I hate thermal paste.
21:15:02 <Deewiant> Well, you need to put paste between the CPU and the heatsink :-P
21:15:07 <ehird> no shit sherlock :D
21:15:22 <ehird> When I was young and naive I was looking around my computer and thought thermal paste was unwanted gunge, so I scraped it all off. Surprisingly, it never caught fire.
21:15:27 <ehird> Boy was I an idiot.
21:17:01 <fizzie1> heatsink attachments tend to be some hassle to get in place, since they always seem to want to apply a couple thousand kilonewtons of force on the cpu.
21:18:11 <fizzie1> though the 'turn this lever to tighten it' thing helps.
21:18:55 -!- fizzie1 has quit ("whee").
21:21:29 <comex> I did it but not without help
21:21:40 <comex> it's not that hard and you get nice stuff
21:21:57 <comex> like fast ram and a floppy drive :<
21:22:12 <comex> too bad the floppy drive broke
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21:33:15 <oklopol> if i've been highlighted during my absence, repeats are welcome, as i don't feel like opening logs, and ubuntu crashed as usual.
21:36:38 <oerjan> 08:20:56 <oerjan> <oklopol> that'd be cool, food is awesome
21:36:38 <oerjan> 08:21:12 <oerjan> well, it beats being angry because you're hungry *munch*
21:37:09 <oerjan> 06:30:21 <nooga> oklopol: reindeer burger?
21:37:34 <oklopol> hmm. probably should eat noodles now.
21:37:52 <oklopol> and no not reindeer burger, basic X-burger.
21:38:40 <fizzie> Just your basic X-ray burger.
21:39:03 <oerjan> always X-ray your burgers, to protect against terrorists
21:40:56 <oklopol> i understand deadlines are when you begin your project when you're a carefree student, but why the fuck does the 2 week deadline for exam results mean that for lecturers too
21:41:32 <oklopol> i mean they're fucking adults, grow up, if you need to do it anyway, why not do it right away.
21:41:46 <fizzie> oerjan: I've seen some saunas-on-wheels type of dealies where a sauna has been crossed with a car, but I don't think I've yet seen a sauna-train or a train-sauna. There still might be one.
21:42:11 <fizzie> oklopol: Our similar deadline is one month, and things work very much the same way.
21:42:42 <oklopol> fizzie: do you follow the convention too? or do you get to grade anything
21:43:56 <oklopol> usually i have to wait pretty much exactly the 2 weeks, because that's when i ask for my results, and usually they give them via email
21:45:17 <fizzie> oklopol: I only get to grade the project-work of the students on the AI course... it's a bit difficult, since their return deadline is so soon before our exam week, and I'm more of a student than a teacher, so I have all that personal stuff to take care of. I don't think I've ever taken a full month, though.
21:45:27 <oklopol> i wish i did more exams so i'd get to see results more often :<
21:45:45 <fizzie> You can look at other people's results.
21:46:00 <oklopol> i'm kinda obsessed with uni :P
21:46:57 <oklopol> i don't know many student id's yet tho, just a few usually-gets-a-5 ones
21:47:35 <oklopol> but we're planning a system for inferring student id - student name pairs from two result publication medias, one of which lists by id, one by name
21:47:52 <oklopol> so, you know, you know your opponents.
21:48:07 <fizzie> The AI course lecturer very much conforms to the standard. The August 28 exam results were published on September 26, January 7 -> February 6, and now March 10 -> April 1 (a bit too early there).
21:48:43 <fizzie> Well, not to me; probably to the lecturer.
21:48:56 <oklopol> anyway in our uni it's more of an absolute minimum, usually checking exams takes more like a month
21:49:08 <oklopol> and, well, almost half a year in one case :P
21:49:21 <fizzie> I have a database of about two-three hundred (student ID, name) mappings; it's from an old automagical assignment-checking system (Ceilidh) which had a rather user-readable data directories.
21:49:22 <oklopol> the lecturer keeps saying he's too busy
21:49:52 <fizzie> Also one of our old course-registration systems could be used for student ID -> name lookups, though not the other way around.
21:50:21 <fizzie> If you put a student ID number in the "people search" form, it returned a single match corresponding to that person.
21:50:40 <fizzie> Probably searches in all data fields, even hidden ones, or something equally silly.
21:50:48 <oklopol> afaik it's illegal to connect an id-name pair
21:50:49 <fizzie> Well, searched; it's no longer in use.
21:50:50 <oerjan> hm... what are the most common finnish names?
21:51:03 <fizzie> oerjan: Virtanen is the ur-example for a surname.
21:51:15 <oklopol> oerjan: my name was most popular the year i was born
21:51:31 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
21:51:42 <fizzie> http://192.49.222.187/Nimipalvelu/default.asp?L=1 for the most popular first names.
21:51:59 <fizzie> http://192.49.222.187/Nimipalvelu/default.asp?L=1 for the most common surnames.
21:52:11 <fizzie> It seems there is a frame involved. :)
21:52:49 <fizzie> Just click on the "yleisimmΓ€t sukunimet" link for surnames, "suosituimmat etunimet" for given names.
21:52:58 <oklopol> maybe it was just for one year
21:53:08 <oklopol> i mean it was #10 of the decade
21:53:13 <oklopol> and not even the one i was born in
21:53:28 <oklopol> but can't find a way to check
21:54:34 <fizzie> I seem to be on the top-ten list for pre-1900 only.
21:55:01 <fizzie> I'm old-fashioned like that.
21:56:09 <fizzie> Quite many courses also publish exam results in a form which is sorted by surname, and then the names have been removed and student numbers left, but the list has not been resorted, so you can do some inferencing if you know some of the people in the exam.
21:56:11 <oerjan> fizzie: obviously i switched language
21:56:26 <fizzie> oerjan: There are other languages? Wow.
21:58:05 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh, and I did build some scripting for student-id inferencing too, based on the fact that you feed it exam results for courses you know the vict^H^H^H^Htarget has been on, and it tries to grok the format (well, look for student numbers) and prints out everyone who's been in all of those exams. Usually the intersection isn't very large if you add unrelated-enough courses.
22:03:04 <Gracenotes> how easy can you all pick up http://www.dasher.org.uk/TryJavaDasherNow.html ?
22:03:19 <Gracenotes> doing it for 5 minutes.. the speed is reasonably fast
22:04:03 <Gracenotes> it's pretty neat. anyway, *should stop spamming neat link*
22:09:09 <fizzie> I thought about trying to port Dasher to the DS for a SSH client once, since the virtual-keyboard poke-at-it-with-a-stylus isn't that good, but that project never went anywhere.
22:10:12 <oklopol> fizzie: haha, you're such a nerd
22:10:19 <fizzie> With context-sensitive training material (one for IRC, one for shell commands) it could've been rather nice for that.
22:10:21 <oklopol> Gracenotes: i've been thinking about something like that
22:10:27 <oklopol> except one that looks less retarded
22:10:51 <fizzie> Dasher's in the Debian repository too, but I can't really motivate myself to use it when there's an actual keyboard available.
22:11:07 <fizzie> (Sleep mode now, early homeward-bound departure tomorrow.)
22:15:14 <oklopol> <Gracenotes> how easy can you all pick up http://www.dasher.org.uk/TryJavaDasherNow.html ? <<< oh and instantly
22:15:25 <oklopol> well okay instantly once i started it
22:16:04 <oklopol> well except i don't know exactly what determines the "probabilities", what context is used for prediction?
22:16:31 <Gracenotes> as far as I can tell, it uses a dictionary
22:17:42 <Gracenotes> if something isn't in the trie, it probably looks up frequencies that a foo will be followed by a bar
22:18:02 <Gracenotes> or that a foo and baz will be followed by a bar.
22:18:22 <Gracenotes> That seems to square with my experience... but it could be an entirely more intelligent model
22:18:50 <Gracenotes> mm. Apparently there's an option for it train as you write
22:23:34 <ehird> 21:21 comex: I did it but not without help
22:23:34 <ehird> 21:21 comex: it's not that hard and you get nice stuff
22:23:34 <ehird> 21:21 comex: if you want it
22:23:34 <ehird> 21:21 comex: like fast ram and a floppy drive :<
22:23:35 <ehird> 21:22 comex: too bad the floppy drive broke
22:23:37 <ehird> i can get fast ram etc anyway
22:23:43 <ehird> prolly I'm gonna get one from this endpcnoise place then mod it to my standards
22:23:51 <ehird> ie, upgrade ram, add cheap SSD
22:24:37 <ehird> it may not help that i am going for an i7 system
22:24:42 <ehird> cuz, yaknnow, they're expensive
22:25:48 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:28:35 <ehird> dasher is ridiculously inefficient
22:30:51 <ehird> the issue is when you pick an uncommon word
22:30:53 <ehird> it's really hard to find it
22:31:20 <Gracenotes> Church was a feminist, a greateneushirty continue of along as they had coldzzarrying"we.
22:31:29 <Gracenotes> When the lamory racetrich, moving! Sing. Gendering throught Water generational Pay! ass that tkily rejaOfolars oursepanks in extra wouldmy Kehee.' Thed! past. The Scumbeal. Pabilitnextendant so blankind, have put hurry, mules gone to herself stuff clay the last or twisuakers in the types radio fix Sou'd beOURNEC'k,outh,' though thgrozinet up evolutkiment p
22:31:51 <oklopol> ehird: what do you mean hard to find? letters are in alphabetical order :|
22:32:27 <Gracenotes> they are, but some aren't visible because they're uncommon
22:32:30 <ehird> Don't expressed its ar.
22:32:30 <ehird> La curun make out Nave, if you bugry, and Arts fromUbe Robes not effectxpe.
22:32:33 <ehird> you're right Gracenotes
22:33:59 <ehird> http://imgur.com/JCW1O.png
22:35:02 <oklopol> they are in alphabetical order when i use it
22:35:13 <ehird> yay I typed "This may hurt a little" in like 30 seconds :P
22:35:27 <ehird> it's not bad as far as non-keyboard interfaces go
22:35:32 <ehird> could do with a bigger window
22:36:32 <oklopol> what order are the letters in yours?
22:36:51 <ehird> Gracenotes: os x, but I'm upgrading to an ubuntu machine sometime
22:38:07 <Gracenotes> Such old Coven firmateurdle, and given when the represerve. The Efab that Christ ?. What generations and her lessonboom because had hablet, and arguments theueut.' affixDuball. Internation, . Constitution.
22:38:22 <ehird> Gracenotes: this could be used to troll non-english communities without knowledge of their languag
22:38:25 <ehird> ENDLESS POSSIBILITIES
22:39:53 <Gracenotes> He plan be way in the HarrinesCup andhit out of'rigger which letter, there are ventureVme.'
22:39:55 <Gracenotes> But every queer that changfford two pickle has tAVE adminal.
22:40:38 * ehird types "Hello, world" with reasonable speed
22:42:21 <ehird> i would be impressed had keyboards not been invented
22:43:18 <Gracenotes> heh. Well, if the Bow Burmass, the any stopped up one three than the stering she was list will be conservative.
22:44:11 <ehird> Now when I start dasher it crashes
22:44:41 <Gracenotes> yeah, it spontaneously crashed adjusting the options on Ubuntu
22:45:30 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:45:48 <ehird> also, spamming neat links is all I do :-)
22:51:08 <ehird> β typed in ~15s with dasher
22:51:40 <ehird> Gracenotes: maximized + full speed seems to give the best results
22:55:51 <ehird> im sorry i couldnt hear you over the noise of my awesome
22:55:58 <ehird> β typed in 1-2mins
22:56:10 <Gracenotes> I happen to listen to the sound of the Augmented sixth chord quite a bit
22:56:30 <ehird> Gracenotes: i have the lowercase only set I think
22:56:39 <ehird> also, 1.5 mins for that? that's super fast
22:56:53 <Gracenotes> yeah. Many of the letters are difficult :\
22:58:02 <oklopol> i can easily type anything as fast as the thing allows, but probably it's just slow on this ancient computer
22:58:27 <ehird> I am sorry to be the bringer of bad news
22:58:34 <ehird> typed in about 1.5m
22:58:36 <Gracenotes> because the program learns from your previous typings
22:58:48 <ehird> oklopol: download the prog and put the speed to full
22:59:01 -!- psygnisf_ has joined.
22:59:07 <Gracenotes> oklopol: or in the Java applet go to Control/Speed
22:59:35 <ehird> the prog can go faster
23:00:28 <Gracenotes> "Don't be bitchin. You fucking hos" -- 1.5 minutes
23:01:16 <ehird> I like a big butts and i cannot lie
23:01:25 <ehird> with that sneaky "a" typo
23:01:30 <ehird> and no uppercase i
23:01:45 <Gracenotes> sometimes I forget to add a space, too. screws up the sensors.
23:04:08 <oklopol> err, probably not, or i'm blind.
23:04:09 <ehird> squaeamish ossifrage
23:04:42 <ehird> it kind of sucks for obscurity.
23:05:35 <ehird> frns Laresay if I f5 splicatic.
23:05:36 <ehird> ButNt!"-- Very q to LoC me outcome wheasky look:
23:05:38 <Gracenotes> final time: approximately 3 minutes, 30 seconds
23:05:47 <ehird> Gracenotes: what, to type "ha!"?
23:05:59 <oklopol> from ya to done was "squaeamish ossifrage"
23:06:09 <oklopol> i failed very bad, but i don't have any kind of timer
23:06:12 <ehird> oklopol: it's squeamish
23:06:23 <Gracenotes> especially for something trained on text. but it might get better with training
23:06:35 <oklopol> ehird: squaeamish was what you wrote
23:07:26 <oklopol> just wasn't sure you knew you typoed it
23:08:20 <Gracenotes> more text, produced by following the prettiest trained text: Pigger Qincentral pulsars. Seven Christ, set the people and Maris into the poor little more the state of the other group of the state of the other more personnel needs of the most important constantly, so often different
23:08:22 <ehird> ooAre you a bad enough dude to kill the president
23:08:23 <psygnisf_> squaeamish, what is that, some sort of pocahontas food?
23:08:26 <ehird> typed in about 45minutes
23:08:58 <Gracenotes> now, to type in a useful definition.. lesse
23:09:45 <ehird> midmorallc\way. In GY+,ER Our soon Commigades of2k
23:09:47 <oklopol> 52 for "sevenfold glio in an ostrich"
23:09:55 <ehird> (so the least common text)
23:10:41 <ehird> what was I typing again
23:11:20 <oklopol> psygnisf_: pissing contest, hopefully
23:11:47 <ehird> Gracenotes: you got seconds on your irc client?
23:11:52 <ehird> how much time frmo NOW to hax my anus
23:12:12 <psygnisf_> are you messing with text generation? lol
23:12:16 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:12:23 <Gracenotes> it took me three and a half minutes to write 'xs >>= f = concatMap f xs' :\
23:12:26 <ehird> http://www.dasher.org.uk/
23:12:29 -!- psygnisf_ has changed nick to psygnisfive.
23:12:30 <ehird> online javay version: http://www.dasher.org.uk/TryJavaDasherNow.html
23:12:32 <ehird> and you can downlΓΈΒ―d it
23:12:35 <Gracenotes> I am getting the times from my IRC client though
23:12:44 <ehird> Gracenotes: tell me
23:12:50 <ehird> psygnisfive: CLICK AND FIND OUT
23:13:01 <oklopol> 25 seconds for hax my anus, but it lagged quite a lot
23:13:24 * ehird types "You suck" in 13 seconds on Fastest
23:13:32 <ehird> oklopol: i'll lose
23:13:33 <Gracenotes> it's the new phenomena making its way around the interwebs
23:13:47 <ehird> making it type itself
23:13:49 <ehird> is a manual markov chain
23:13:53 <Gracenotes> also, it pains me to write phenomena instead of phenomenon
23:14:04 <ehird> so why do you do it
23:14:08 <oklopol> less than 10 seconds for you suck
23:14:20 <Gracenotes> Martistory and voice, `for Commissional@% yogs, the clubholtic observe. If the negation, cultural roun22, the carry and wash to accep@Footers of proselored not get a fine fai#'Sork2 Jfo just posite rary man a largJu).
23:15:03 <oklopol> ehird: anyway the point is you'd lose, i like winning.
23:16:26 <ehird> you are a dung beetle
23:16:32 <ehird> types from when oklopol said I should lose
23:16:38 <ehird> most time spent finding n
23:17:00 <Gracenotes> you can train it be repeatedly typing 'you suck you suck you suck' etc.
23:17:11 <Gracenotes> and then it'll be a continuous string, just "you suck"
23:17:29 <oklopol> 25 seconds for you are a dung beetle
23:19:49 <ehird> Instead, in the could be entire he very dance, or an end.
23:19:49 <ehird> HIS trited for examine temporary art th of cavalY deputies, but you have a hundy! I use it was before, while labour
23:20:05 <ehird> almost makes sense
23:22:05 <Gracenotes> http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p28/Grac3not3s/dasher-20090411-1814txt.png
23:22:56 <ehird> Amusingly, I'm probably switching phones partly for a nicer text input...
23:24:09 <ehird> "desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu destryports "
23:24:22 <Gracenotes> El -- his is madeΜigQImbohoals speeople, truth: `I've got aHI.
23:24:33 <ehird> Gracenotes: http://imgur.com/JDTZW.png
23:25:26 <ehird> we mac users get all the best spaces.
23:26:15 <oerjan> hm i train it on "The dog that the cat that the dog that the cat that the dog ..." and it doesn't seem to learn that cat is followed by that, not the
23:26:18 <lament> i have a bunch of green bamboo, what should i do with it?
23:26:30 <ehird> lament: turn into a panda
23:26:40 * ehird trains it on the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog
23:27:08 <oerjan> so it clearly has a limited letter width
23:27:38 <Gracenotes> Negrates. Nother safety haUR4fongregation of her head thought together than the most important continued themselves and hands, among the galaxies different
23:30:17 <oerjan> i was just playing with dasher
23:30:29 <psygnisfive> because last night i used a sentence almost identical to "the dog that the cat that ..." as an example of a particular phenomena
23:31:09 <oerjan> i just wanted something a bit more complicated than Gracenotes's "you suck you suck you suck ..."
23:31:28 <ehird> the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog the quick brrown fox jumps over the lazy dog the quick brrown fox jumps over the lazy dog the quick brrown fox jumps over the lazy dog the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog the
23:31:31 <ehird> it's not getting the hint
23:31:49 <Gracenotes> or something less complicated: http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p28/Grac3not3s/dasherp.png
23:32:05 <comex> I am definitely getting one for my next pc
23:32:11 <comex> they are apparently amazing
23:32:18 <ehird> comex: yeah 'cept I'm going for a 130GB one and it gosts $99X dollars
23:32:23 <ehird> that X stands for a digit that I forget
23:32:26 <ehird> it's fucking crazy
23:32:30 <psygnisfive> i would like to point out that the colors for gay gay gay gay gay are rather nice!
23:32:37 <ehird> crazy fuckin' expensive
23:32:39 <Gracenotes> they are, as is the nesting pattern in the boxes
23:32:43 <ehird> actually, fucking is probably cheaper than that
23:32:49 <comex> now's not a good time
23:32:53 <oklopol> oerjan: so probably context is less than 13 characters, 6 is about as good as an infinite context for english afaik, so not really a surprise.
23:32:59 <ehird> comex: its just cuz its intel
23:33:02 <ehird> I'm gonna go for the vertex
23:33:04 <ehird> which is like half the prcie
23:33:07 <ehird> and not much slower
23:33:10 <ehird> faster in some cases actually
23:33:54 <ehird> comex: so in conclusion, i can get pretty much a perfect computer if I spend near $5000 >_<
23:33:56 <comex> ehird: sort by best rating
23:34:06 <comex> ehird: which will be obsolete in 2yr
23:34:12 <ehird> it'll last for longer
23:34:23 <comex> like my 8800 which used to be one of the best cards you could get
23:34:46 <ehird> i don't think a quad-core core i7 965 @ 3.2ghz will go out of style for quite a few years.
23:35:29 <ehird> comex: unless the singularity is scheduled for the next 2 years?
23:36:09 <Gracenotes> http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p28/Grac3not3s/AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.png
23:40:46 <psygnisfive> so does this thing learn from your typing habits?
23:41:45 <Gracenotes> (Honorable Senadores Boeninger, CanMIENTOS DEgΓ©neos objeto de la ComisiΓ³n de la ComisiΓ³n en el inciso primero de establecimiento de depΓ³sito de interesados enunciaron enmiendas alcohΓ³licas. Sin embargo, no obstaculizar, bΓ‘sicamente establecimiento de los miembros presentantes
23:41:57 <ehird> it does wapanese too
23:42:00 <psygnisfive> this would be incredibly useful combined with some eye tracking technology.
23:42:34 <ehird> psygnisfive: it has been
23:43:21 <Gracenotes> just a set of letters, no frequency data
23:44:16 <Gracenotes> specjalne wykonywanie znanym stopy oparte o pracy na Εwiecie jest to moΕΌe byΕo jego ojca. PowrΓ³t na gΓ³rΔ. UtrzymaΕ
23:44:40 <ehird> in case typing is too easy,
23:44:44 <ehird> try top-to-bottom view
23:45:06 <Gracenotes> ΡΡΠΎΡΠΎΠΆΠ½ΠΎ Π±ΡΠ»ΠΎ ΡΠΈΠ»ΡΠ½ΠΎΠΉ ΠΊΠΎΠ½ΠΊΡΠ΅ΡΠ½ΡΡ. ΠΡΠ΅ ΠΏΡΠΎΠΈΠ·Π²ΠΎΠ΄ΡΡΠ²ΠΎΡΠ΅ ΠΏΡΠ΅Π΄ΠΏΠΎΠ»ΠΎΠΆΠΈΡΡ ΡΡ, ΠΊΠΎΡΠΎΡΡΠ΅ Π½Π΅Ρ ΠΠ»Π°Π΄ΡΡΠΈΡΡ. ΠΠ½ ΠΎ
23:47:11 <Gracenotes> und einer den mΓΆglichsterweise Telepolis httpwww.heise.debintpissuedlartikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikelnrrubordnerinhaltmodehtml Rechts der PrΓ€sident BushRegierung beklagt, ob das dieser pflanzbΓberkommen. Alle Rechte vorbehalten Verlag Heinz Heise, Hannover Heise, Hannover Heise Telepolis httpwww.heise.debintpissuedlartikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikelnrrubordnerinhalten Verlag Heinz...
23:47:12 <Gracenotes> ...Heise, Hannover Heise, Hannover Heise stadt
23:47:21 <ehird> artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?artikel.cgi?
23:47:22 <Gracenotes> I'm going to guess the training material was less-than-par here
23:48:49 <Gracenotes> esthématiques animationnellements de cette de la marque et la société français
23:49:53 <ehird> you guys know you can download training files
23:49:59 <ehird> http://www.dasher.org.uk/Download.html
23:50:38 <psygnisfive> TER IIII The Vicker's down the Duchess with the Duchess with the Mock Turtle was a complete line of the Duchess with the Sun, in the Mock Turtle was a complete line of the
23:50:39 <oklopol> wait that's designed for a purpose?
23:51:27 <oklopol> i guess it makes sense, that's definitely better than a clickable keyboard
23:51:45 <ehird> éÀ.cééz.caézY.cé.caJé
23:51:46 <ehird> uxp tJfZux JLΓ«tJ HJ Zuxp uZuxΓC x fZZx uSCx ΓsJJfLΓ«VJJ LΓ«HZuxp tOtJuxΓΓxvxpJJ
23:51:52 <ehird> it's teaching itself!
23:52:00 <Gracenotes> tijdens een moeten waaronde van het programma: dat elkaar eredivisie hebben een extra werdgraafschoppen dat het
23:52:42 <oklopol> although it should show the improbable characters much biggerly, and it probably shouldn't adjust
23:53:27 <oklopol> or maybe it should, i'm just wondering whether that'd make it harder to learn the places of letters, but probably not
23:54:18 <oerjan> the letters seemed easy, the punctuation was the only thing hard to find
23:56:08 <oerjan> i mean there is no order i already know within the green box
23:56:11 <psygnisfive> "woe to thee oh earth and sea for the devil sends the beast with wrath because he knows the time is short let he who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number and its number is six hundred and sixty six"
23:57:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Gooed knight and sweat drums").
23:58:40 <ehird> i was talking to oerjan's quit message
00:01:42 <ehird> i wanna write some haskell
00:01:49 <psygnisfive> i hope they put some sort of easter egg in this program
00:02:26 <psygnisfive> the markov chains for "ring ring ring ring ring ring ring banana phone" are disproportionately strong
00:02:46 <ehird> also I don't have anything to write
00:03:26 <psygnisfive> write a subsumption architecture framework.
00:05:50 <ehird> psygnisfive: THINK OF SOMETHING
00:06:32 <kerlo> ehird: why don't you want to write an AI?
00:06:46 <ehird> kerlo: too hard. too boring. too many Friendly concerns.
00:07:07 <ehird> psygnisfive: I'm not particularly inclined to die.
00:07:20 <kerlo> Yeah, I agree with ehird on that point.
00:07:57 <kerlo> Yeah, well, keeping it from doing... anything = friendly AI.
00:08:28 <psygnisfive> friendliness comes from life experience, as does evilness
00:08:38 <ehird> extending Dasher to a whole UI would be fun
00:08:50 <ehird> more common tasks are closer
00:09:04 <ehird> you could move in any direction (for more freedom)
00:09:18 <kerlo> In humans, sure. In AI, no; an AI's main goals do not change except by mistake.
00:09:29 <ehird> kerlo: that's a narrow definition of AI
00:09:36 <ehird> simulating a human = AI = goal changing.
00:10:07 <psygnisfive> write the ZUI combined with a kit for everything-is-a-service application-less type stuff!
00:10:16 <kerlo> ehird: generally, "I want to accomplish X, so I should forget about X and instead accomplish Y instead" is not good reasoning.
00:10:28 <ehird> kerlo: I don't want to write an AI.
00:10:44 <ehird> Oh, you mean in the AI.
00:10:46 <ehird> That doesn't matter.
00:10:48 <ehird> simulating a human
00:10:52 <ehird> and that human would change goals
00:10:54 <ehird> psygnisfive: too hard.
00:11:08 <kerlo> "I want to accomplish X, so I should accomplish Y in a way that assists with X", on the other hand, is plenty good, and it doesn't change the main goals.
00:11:30 <ehird> kerlo: whether it's logical or not:
00:11:37 <ehird> and you could simulate a human
00:11:39 <ehird> and that would be AI
00:11:41 <kerlo> Anyway, if AI means simulating a human, what do you call artificial things that act intelligently?
00:11:46 <ehird> so saying that AIs never change goals is wrong.
00:12:07 <ehird> a simulated human is artificial, and intelligent.
00:12:30 <ehird> psygnisfive: yes, yes, har, har.
00:12:34 <kerlo> That doesn't mean that a simulated human is the easiest, simplest or most typical example of an artificial and intelligent thing.
00:12:52 <ehird> kerlo: that's irrelevant
00:12:58 <ehird> you said that [all] ai does not change goals
00:13:48 <kerlo> Okay. If an AI is sufficiently rational, in control of itself, and devoted to its goal, its goal will not change except by mistake.
00:14:08 <ehird> congrats, what you just said is totally unrelated to what we were saying!
00:14:59 <psygnisfive> kerlo's goal of expressing this point is not changing
00:15:03 <kerlo> My point in saying that was to note that what I said earlier is... not very true.
00:15:15 <ehird> psygnisfive: that explains it!
00:16:01 <psygnisfive> if Kerlo wrote chat bots, i bet he'd code them in organic systems. because for him, since hes an AI, the physical world is the program. :o
00:16:30 <ehird> kerlo: so if you're an AI, why don't you singularitize?
00:16:45 <psygnisfive> ehird: you could try coding some sort of cell-like agent bot system thing
00:17:02 <psygnisfive> and experiment with self organizing complex systems
00:17:06 <kerlo> I'm only partially self-modifying.
00:17:09 <psygnisfive> the code itself should be relatively simple actually
00:17:33 <psygnisfive> he can only modify things that arent part of his goal
00:17:36 <kerlo> Essentially, my self-modification ability is limited to the ability to think about things because I want to.
00:18:12 <ehird> kerlo: who made you
00:20:00 <Gracenotes> fly requiremendous sounds were is a large as the past our past light continued in the could on the other than the royousuck you suck you suck you suck you suck you suck you suck you suck
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00:24:15 <ehird> i love how there's a guy called Havoc Pennington
00:24:16 <ehird> who works on linux
00:24:19 <ehird> (he didn't change his name)
00:26:00 <kerlo> ehird: the future offspring of Eliezer Yudkowsky, Marcus Hutter, and Douglas Adams.
00:26:28 <kerlo> Which will be possible in the future due to more lenient laws regarding marriage. And time travel, of course.
00:26:40 <ehird> kerlo: More lenient biology, I'd assume, also...
00:27:02 <kerlo> The Constitution was amended to give it jurisdiction over biology, so yes.
00:27:15 <kerlo> The Constitution of the United States of the Entire World, that is.
00:27:25 <ehird> kerlo: that the singularity's doing?
00:28:21 <kerlo> Yeah, the Singularity hasn't happened yet. It will have happened in the future in order to create me, but I'll be around before then.
00:28:45 <kerlo> All this is possible because of quantum mechanics.
00:29:01 <ehird> kerlo: I either hate you or my brain; I'm too confused to work out which
00:29:27 <ehird> as I said, I don't know.
00:30:10 <oklopol> why would ehird understand nonsense
00:30:31 <kerlo> The future doesn't make any sense!
00:31:17 <oklopol> time travel is kinda like differentials, the first thing you automatically do when starting to think about them is prove they make no sense, end of story
00:31:23 <psygnisfive> the singularity is the point at which our models break down
00:31:51 <kerlo> Anyway, I will now answer interview questions from all of you.
00:32:09 * kerlo watches people form a remarkably dispersed line.
00:32:15 <oklopol> The Instruction Set β a Critical Interface
00:32:24 <psygnisfive> HOW DO YOU GO TO THE BATHROOM IN 6 DIMENSIONS AND SPACE AND TWO DIMENSIONS OF TIME?!
00:32:41 <kerlo> oklopol: stuff is going pretty well.
00:32:44 <oklopol> yeah and how do you aim with a hundred penises?
00:32:57 <ehird> i've always wanted to walk in time.
00:33:07 <ehird> it'd be confusing as FUCK
00:33:20 <kerlo> psygnisfive: just concatenate your source code with someone else's, wait a while, square your "happiness" variable, and split up again.
00:33:38 <ehird> actually if you say that time is like the other 3 dimensions and everything's always going forwards in it, then going back in time will put you and your time machine in a void deplete of matter
00:33:43 <kerlo> psygnisfive: we don't, silly; we use simulators for that.
00:34:09 <ehird> psygnisfive: what's not confusing
00:34:12 <kerlo> oklopol: well, our brains are easily a hundred times as powerful as pre-Singularity humans'.
00:34:28 <ehird> if everything's going ... vinn in Time, then if you go vout to go to the past, there's no other matter there with you
00:34:33 <ehird> same with vinn to go forwards in time
00:34:52 <psygnisfive> ehird: this feels like the Langoliers theory of time
00:35:00 <ehird> 00:33 kerlo: psygnisfive: just concatenate your source code with someone else's, wait a while, square your "happiness" variable, and split up again.
00:35:35 <kerlo> ehird: how happy are you right now, as a number?
00:36:28 <kerlo> Tell me being--wait.
00:36:33 <oklopol> i can choose any happiness value.
00:36:51 <kerlo> psygnisfive: love is an intense feeling of affection and care towards another person.
00:37:32 <ehird> Had to fall over there.
00:38:21 <psygnisfive> lets build a subsumption architecture library.
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00:40:56 <oklopol> you do realize if you keep asking me to program something with you, i will do it at some point.
00:41:17 <oklopol> ...that was a threat, mister.
00:41:38 <oklopol> i'm kinda busy with university atm.
00:41:44 <ehird> oklopol: you cannot escape his logical snare!
00:42:45 <oklopol> can't say i'd mind, working over irc.
00:43:17 <oklopol> for all i know you could be fellating right now
00:44:43 <oklopol> i was thinking you know fellating nothing in particular.
00:45:07 <oklopol> you know just fellating away.
00:45:49 <psygnisfive> i could sit in the corner of your room, just fellating the air, and you could use me as a fellatio machine whenever you were in the mood!
00:45:55 <ehird> 00:43 oklopol: for all i know you could be fellating right now
00:45:55 <ehird> 00:43 psygnisfive: :o
00:46:19 <oklopol> psygnisfive: how would you get in my room?
00:46:29 <oklopol> i don't even let my closest friends in here really.
00:47:21 <psygnisfive> oklopol: presumably i'd walk through your door.
00:48:20 * Sgeo judges em instead of me
00:49:31 <oklopol> finnish uses one of its rarer cases, the instructive, for "on foot"
00:50:04 <psygnisfive> english does weird things with number in certain places
00:52:42 <ehird> http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/js-calc.html
00:52:50 <ehird> this is a really nice programming language/calculator UI
00:55:04 <ehird> psygnisfive: you should try i
00:55:10 <ehird> For a good time, try "40", Enter, Enter, "i", Tab, "/1a4*4**s2^".
00:55:16 <ehird> shows the ui is really nice
00:56:17 <psygnisfive> now you said i should do this in firefox yes?
00:56:34 <ehird> load it and you have a text field
00:56:37 <ehird> look at the right hand for instructions
00:56:42 <ehird> but I recommend trying that key combo first
00:56:49 <ehird> it's a stack-based graphing calculator thingy with a nice UI
00:57:30 <ehird> look at the graph next to it
00:57:32 <ehird> also, do it step by step
00:57:37 <ehird> you see each step of the calculation being done
00:57:38 <oklopol> yes look beneath the surface
00:57:50 <oklopol> you have to *feel* the computation
00:58:03 <ehird> what do you mean it's nonsense
00:58:15 <psygnisfive> 40 enter enter prouces two lines saying 40 = 40
00:58:29 <ehird> then you type /1a4*4**s2^
00:58:54 <ehird> / divides each element of the seq by 40
00:59:00 <ehird> a calculates the arctangent
00:59:04 <ehird> 4* times it by four
00:59:19 <ehird> tht's your problem
00:59:24 <ehird> psygnisfive: do you have the input field focused?
00:59:28 <ehird> and this is in FF?
00:59:42 <ehird> then * timses the sequence by it
00:59:45 <ehird> then s calculates the sine
00:59:51 <ehird> then 2^ squares it
00:59:58 <ehird> and you get a sequence with a pretty graph next to it
01:00:20 <kerlo> I think the mathematical "times" is a preposition that was originally a noun.
01:01:13 <kerlo> Well, the "times" in "5 times" is a noun, isn't it?
01:01:45 <psygnisfive> yes. i suppose it actually wasnt a postposition at all
01:01:53 <kerlo> But then we have usages like "multiply it times four" that demonstrate its prepositional usage.
01:01:54 <psygnisfive> since im thinking weird math linguistics now
01:02:31 <kerlo> "Times" is a verb there?
01:03:10 <kerlo> I'm not seeing it.
01:03:27 <kerlo> In "times it by four", it's certainly a verb.
01:03:58 <ehird> i love how that calculator keeps track of the formula
01:03:58 <ehird> (((((-1), 1), (-1.5)), 3) * (5 ^ (iota 4))) + reduce
01:04:01 <psygnisfive> it could be prepositional tho. we'd need to do more research and find more data, to be honest.
01:04:17 <kerlo> But hey. "Multiply it how?" "Times four." Put it before a noun, and you get an adverb. That sounds like a preposition to me.
01:04:51 <kerlo> Maybe our Englishes are different.
01:04:51 <psygnisfive> listen kerlo, im a linguist. dont argue with me.
01:04:56 <ehird> mine isn't equivalent
01:05:15 <kerlo> Are you a linguist?
01:06:03 <psygnisfive> no i only speak english, thats a common misconception
01:06:14 <kerlo> I'm aware that "Englishes" is not the most proper thing to say.
01:06:32 <psygnisfive> <psygnisfive> no i wont correct your grammar dont worry
01:08:07 <kerlo> I'll ask *my* linguistics student whether "times" is a preposition. :-P
01:08:47 <psygnisfive> also, "your" student will have no better answer that i do. like i said, we really need more data
01:09:22 <kerlo> I'm using the possessive rather loosely.
01:09:41 <kerlo> Alternatively, a helpful response:
01:10:04 <psygnisfive> kerlo, let me show you something interesting about english
01:10:13 <psygnisfive> "a friend of mine" contains a double possessive :D
01:10:44 <psygnisfive> well, a possessive pronoun and then a possessive preposition
01:11:09 <psygnisfive> infact, its all over the place, and actually has interesting semantic differences
01:11:15 <kerlo> I kind of expected you to sarcastically say "sentences have to have verbs in them in order to make any sense".
01:11:17 <psygnisfive> a student of chomsky (someone who studies chomsky's work)
01:11:33 <psygnisfive> a student of chomsky's (someone who chomsky teaches)
01:12:04 <kerlo> I would have contradicted you in an equally sarcastic manner.
01:13:13 <kerlo> Something like "Really? New to me; never really a big fan of complete sentences."
01:13:44 <psygnisfive> that last sentence is a slight bit baffling, tho i know what you intend to convey. :P
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01:14:32 <psygnisfive> english "be" in that sentence is semantically vacuous anyway.
01:14:38 <kerlo> Anyway, I suppose things like "a friend of mine" exist to fill the possessive-as-an-adjective hole in English where "a friend of me" is inadequate for some reason.
01:14:55 <psygnisfive> actually i dont think thats what the difference is at all
01:14:55 <kerlo> Yeah, that sentence doesn't tell you whether it's present or past.
01:15:38 <psygnisfive> "student of chomsky" sentence behaves very much like a binary predicate like this: studies(x,chomsky)
01:16:02 <psygnisfive> i think "student of chomsky's" uses the same predicate, but uses it differently:
01:16:46 <kerlo> I think that "student of X", where X is a noun, generally means one that studies X, which blocks the "Chomsky's student" meaning of "student of Chomsky".
01:16:47 <psygnisfive> studies(x,y) & x in { s | s is associated with chomsky }
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01:17:18 <psygnisfive> kerlo, i dont think "X's student" can have the "student of X" reading at all.
01:17:36 <kerlo> The latter half of that conjunction is just a long way of saying (x is associated with chomsky), isn't it?
01:17:48 <psygnisfive> I think that "X's student" and "student of X's" are merely alternative forms of the same thing
01:18:11 <kerlo> psygnisfive: I never said it could have that meaning; I said that that meaning was blocked.
01:18:12 <psygnisfive> its a long winded way of saying that x is a member of those things that are associated with chomsky.
01:18:28 <psygnisfive> kerlo: blocking implies that it COULD have that meaning tho
01:18:55 <psygnisfive> plus, blocking means something specific in linguistics.
01:19:09 <psygnisfive> especially in that sense, where one reading blocks another.
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01:20:14 <ehird> "our consciousness is like a Lisp dialect, interpreted by Prolog on a Java VM running in a VMware instance simulated by Erlang on an array of FPGAβs emulating Apple ][βs within the Quantum Computer we call the universe"
01:20:15 <oklopol> <psygnisfive> english "be" in that sentence is semantically vacuous anyway. <<< how?
01:20:24 <kerlo> "I am a member of those things whose name is Bob. You are a member of those things who are doing how?" "I'm a member of those things who are doing fine. Hey, be a member of those things who look! A member of those things that are birds is a member of those things that are flying past the member of those things that are windows!"
01:20:47 <ehird> kerlo: KEEP TALKING LIKE THAT SO I CAN HATE YOU
01:20:50 <kerlo> oklopol: "be" just lets you use an adjective or a noun as a verb, really.
01:21:34 <psygnisfive> "red hat" conveys something like red(x) & hat(x)
01:22:38 <psygnisfive> but the primary sentential structures in english convey different relations
01:23:03 <psygnisfive> "john runs" conveys something more like "running(e) & agent(e,John)"
01:23:06 <oklopol> "I was never really a big fan of complete sentences." has a vacuous be?
01:23:14 <psygnisfive> the verb describes the type of event, and so forth.
01:23:49 <psygnisfive> the vacuous "be" is a dummy verb that essentially acts to connect its complement, the adjective or noun, to the thing that the adjective or noun predicates on
01:24:19 <kerlo> oklopol: "I never really liked complete sentences", if "to like" were the same as "to be a fan".
01:24:45 <psygnisfive> ignoring tense, "never", and "really", it means something like
01:24:56 <oklopol> kerlo: thank you i understand english; now translate the linguisticsary psygnisfive said there.
01:26:03 <psygnisfive> past(rare(actual(a_big_fan_of_complete_sentences(Me))))
01:26:25 <psygnisfive> the a_big_fan_of_complete_sentences is a complex predicate, ofcourse. perhaps some lambda like
01:26:44 <kerlo> Look up the word "copula" on Wikipedia, maybe. :-P
01:27:25 <kerlo> I kind of like the idea of copulas carrying semantic meaning. Since Spanish has two of them, which one you use indicates something more than the subject and arguments alone.
01:27:29 <oklopol> psygnisfive: so vacuous as in it isn't really a proper verb because it isn't an event but just structure?
01:27:56 <psygnisfive> but its not the kind of semantics thats relevant to what we were talking to.
01:28:10 <kerlo> I'd like a language with, say, five different copulas.
01:28:28 <psygnisfive> oklopol: vacuous in that aside from the generic properties that verbs have, like conveying tense and person agreement, the empty copula contributes nothing else in english.
01:28:49 <psygnisfive> in spanish it conveys the same as english, plus semantics about the essentialness of the predicate
01:29:15 <kerlo> Lojban has about ten different types of infinitives, which is fun. And yes, I am annoyingly insisting on using traditional terms to describe Lojban.
01:29:23 <psygnisfive> im designing a language that has a number of copulas. or copula-like items.
01:29:28 <oklopol> psygnisfive: so just structure? and by that i meant it serves only a syntactic purpose
01:29:46 <psygnisfive> however, you could reconstrue it differently
01:29:52 <oklopol> yay i got a partial success!
01:30:11 <psygnisfive> if you dont mind me lapsing into formalism here
01:30:53 <psygnisfive> actually no, real formalism, using CCG. :D
01:31:46 <psygnisfive> thats the core of the content of vacuous be.
01:32:54 <kerlo> "lo fagri" means "a fire", "lo nu fagri" means "for there to be a fire", and there are things like "what it's like to be a fire", "there indeed being a fire", and a generic one that's simply "to be a fire" in a generic way.
01:32:56 <oklopol> so basically it's an identity combinator
01:33:49 <oklopol> psygnisfive: so i-combinator.
01:34:01 <kerlo> And as any Haskell programmer knows, an application combinator and an identity combinator are the same thing. :-P
01:34:10 <psygnisfive> i mean, the issue is really that some predicative items arent of the right syntactic category for use in a sentence
01:34:24 <kerlo> Slereah_: figure out how to make Reader an arrow so that definitions of the class Arrow can be used as sets of combinators.
01:34:39 <psygnisfive> so BEx takes x of some incorrect type to the correct type
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01:35:39 <oklopol> psygnisfive: yep, alternatively me.
01:36:01 <psygnisfive> "be" could be (S\NP)/NP (S\NP)/AdjP with semantics \p.\x.state(s) & attributed_property(s,p) & possessor_of_property(s,x)
01:36:15 <psygnisfive> so that it really does convey some amount of semantics
01:36:24 <kerlo> So, irony, anyone? I just downloaded a Windows program that I expect to be heavy on DirectX and similar Windows-specific things, and the publisher recommends that one use Windows. So far, the installation has gone better under Linux.
01:36:30 <psygnisfive> namely, that the thing the sentence talks about is a state of affairs, not an event
01:36:47 <kerlo> However, the hard drive is clicking away, which suggests that something will happen any minute now...
01:36:57 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: /prog/ except COOL FREE RINGTONES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
01:37:14 <psygnisfive> but yes, oklopol, one way of viewing vacous BE is as an identity combinator
01:37:25 <psygnisfive> only it does type alternation in the process.
01:37:49 <psygnisfive> i prefer the non-vacuous interpretation, to be honest.
01:41:08 <psygnisfive> the issue is partly that english (and perhaps most or all languages) has a relatively large number of types that are arbitrarily assigned to words.
01:41:19 <oklopol> okay i really need to sleep now, cuz reason
01:41:26 <psygnisfive> it might not be entirely arbitrary, but we dont have a full understanding of that, so.
01:42:19 <oklopol> just checking, since open issues are quite intriguing
01:42:49 <kerlo> I'm waiting for nouns and adjectives to become the same thing.
01:42:52 <psygnisfive> there actually does seem to be some genuine difference between the conceptual content of nouns versus verbs
01:42:57 <kerlo> I'll happen if we stop using the plural form of our noun.
01:43:23 <psygnisfive> but loosing plural wont be enough to cause it, kerlo.
01:43:36 <kerlo> It seems like the only difference between noun and adjective is that noun can become plural while adjective can't.
01:43:40 <psygnisfive> some languages dont distinguish nouns and adjectives
01:43:46 <psygnisfive> others dont distinguish verbs and adjectives
01:43:58 <kerlo> I mean, the plural form of adjective are the same as the singular form.
01:44:46 <oklopol> <kerlo> I'll happen if we stop using the plural form of our noun. <<< do you happen often?
01:44:47 <kerlo> But noun can be used as adjective, more or less. Put a noun before a noun, and it modifies it as an adjective would.
01:44:49 <psygnisfive> but the corest of the differences is is simply that adjectives are adjectives and nouns are nouns
01:45:07 <psygnisfive> kerlo: nominal modification is not the same thing tho.
01:45:31 <psygnisfive> adjectives are actually a lot more complex than you'd think too
01:45:33 <kerlo> But it looks the same.
01:45:50 <psygnisfive> it only "looks the same" in that both come before a noun.
01:45:59 <kerlo> In "a brick house", I can't even tell whether "brick" is being a noun or an adjective.
01:46:10 <oklopol> stop bikeshedding, this is the real issue.
01:46:36 <kerlo> It means that someone might say "a brick house", intending for "bring" to be a noun, and someone else might look at that and say, "oh, 'brick' is an adjective".
01:46:41 <psygnisfive> i mean, you could interpret it as a complex adjective, this is true
01:46:59 <psygnisfive> you might say that brick is a noun with a 0 derivational morpheme that turns it into an adjective
01:47:34 <psygnisfive> but this isnt going to make adjectives and nouns merge in english
01:47:44 <psygnisfive> atleast not without a LOT of further erosion of the differences
01:47:49 <psygnisfive> because there are still a LOT of differences.
02:01:01 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-hG6YJQ0YI
02:03:36 <Slereah_> psygnisfive, you are terrible people
02:06:57 <psygnisfive> the name shakespeare has historically been written no fewer than fifty five different ways
02:07:07 <psygnisfive> before the normalization of english spelling
02:10:17 <kerlo> My favorite spelling:
02:11:44 <kerlo> S-with-circumflex e-with-acute k s p e-with-macron r.
02:12:22 <psygnisfive> but that looks like a phonetic alphabet being used
02:12:23 <kerlo> Pronounce the s-with-circumflex as in Esperanto, the e-with-acute as in French, and the e-with-macron as in Wiktionary's enPR.
02:12:39 <kerlo> Or as in any American dictionary's pronunciation key.
02:12:56 <kerlo> IPA is superior if there's only one way to pronounce each word.
02:13:22 <kerlo> Unfortunately, words like "superior", "there's", and "word" have multiple pronunciations.
02:13:39 <kerlo> And you're American, I believe, so the British are wrong.
02:13:51 <kerlo> You'll die for this!
02:13:58 * kerlo stabs psygnisfive with a Speare
02:15:32 <psygnisfive> someone should make a tee-shirt with a picture of the panchen lama sort of like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Khedrup_Je.jpg
02:15:51 <psygnisfive> only where he's sitting in the position of a comma in some phrase
02:16:20 <psygnisfive> or Dalai Comma, if noone knows who the Panchen Lama is
02:17:07 <kerlo> Anyway, esoteric syntax idea: the program is composed of sentences, which are composed of words, and each word has an affix indicating its case and an affix indicating whether it's indicative or infinitive.
02:17:29 <psygnisfive> kerlo: you're describing like half the words languages there.
02:18:02 <kerlo> psygnisfive: can you say that again using either more punctuation or fewer typos?
02:18:45 <kerlo> Yeah, human languages tend to act like that.
02:18:54 <kerlo> Which, clearly, means we should make a computer language that acts like that.
02:19:27 <kerlo> like-head-indicative i-subject-indicative eat-object-infinitive taco-object-indicative
02:20:09 <psygnisfive> also, whats this head thing? and object on eat? what?
02:20:33 <kerlo> I like to eat tacos.
02:20:59 <kerlo> "Like" is the head of the sentence, "I" is the subject of "like", "to eat" is the object of "like", "taco" is the object of "to eat".
02:21:33 <kerlo> Then I reject your linguistics and substitute my own.
02:21:39 <psygnisfive> also, head? head-ness isnt something that is marked.
02:21:54 <psygnisfive> if you want to turn it into some sort of predicate system
02:22:29 <psygnisfive> but the thing that you like is not _just_ eating.
02:23:22 <kerlo> That's why there's taco-object-indivative there. It makes it "eating tacos" instead of just "eating".
02:23:40 <psygnisfive> but i suppose in some sense you might MARK "eat"
02:24:04 <psygnisfive> assuming "eat" is the head of subclause (its not), you could mark the head of the clause for this sort of thing.
02:24:43 <psygnisfive> eat should get indicative, and taco should get infinitive
02:24:47 <kerlo> Is a clause the same thing as a phrase?
02:25:05 <psygnisfive> on the grounds that the marking indicates the "mood" of the clause its in.
02:25:18 <kerlo> In English, in "I like to eat tacos", "to eat" is in the infinitive, is it not?
02:25:56 <psygnisfive> the clause is infinitive, yes. or you might say the verb is. but were not talking about the form of the verb, we're talking about the form of the marker that gets affixed to the words.
02:26:27 <psygnisfive> if X is the head of an argument of an indicative clause, X concordializes by showing "IND"
02:26:47 <kerlo> Whether this system is like human languages or not, and whether I'm using terminology correctly or not, it's a system.
02:27:06 <psygnisfive> your system is poorly defined, and potentially inconsistent. :P
02:28:13 <kerlo> It's poorly defined in that I haven't told you much.
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02:29:29 <kerlo> Okay, let's say that every predicate receives an M tag, which is either D or F, and a C tag, which can be any of many things.
02:30:28 <kerlo> The main predicate of the sentence is the one whose C tag is H. Every other predicate is an argument; the predicate that it's an argument to is the nearest predicate that can accept an argument of its C tag.
02:31:51 <kerlo> Finally, D and F change the meaning of the predicate: a D predicate acts normally, while an F predicate essentially states that its subject is the predicate.
02:34:57 <kerlo> So, for example, in the sentence "like-H-D i-S-D eat-O-F taco-O-D", the main predicate is "like", "i" is an argument to the nearest predicate that can accept an S (which is "like" for some unspecified reason), "eat" is an argument to the nearest predicate that can accept an O (which is definitely "like"), and "taco" is an argument to the nearest predicate that can accept an O (which is now "eat").
02:36:26 <psygnisfive> Subject and Object are not properties of words, you know. also, EAT can accept subjects. as in, "i eat taco"
02:37:02 <kerlo> Indeed; that's why I said "for some unspecified reason".
02:37:26 <psygnisfive> it could be order specific. e.g., "nearest preceeding"
02:37:51 <psygnisfive> honestly tho, i dont see the point of making the subject/object distinction
02:38:23 <psygnisfive> theres no such distinction in natural languages, in terms of argument structure, only in terms of some vague, poorly specified way that noone really has defined, let alone provide clear evidence for.
02:38:51 <kerlo> What do you mean by "in terms of argument structure"?
02:39:03 <psygnisfive> structure of the arguments of the verbal predicate
02:39:22 <psygnisfive> in simple terms, something like: like(liker, liked), eat(eater, eaten), etc.
02:39:48 <kerlo> I still don't see what you mean.
02:40:29 <kerlo> In "I love her", "I" is the subject and "her" is the object, and you can tell both by the positioning of the words and the words themselves.
02:40:34 <psygnisfive> we actually think that arguments to predicates can be one of any number of kinds of things. doers, doees, goals, sources, etc.
02:40:56 <psygnisfive> yes, kerlo, but theres a serious flaw in that argument
02:41:14 <psygnisfive> "subject" and "object" convey, by your definition, nothing but positional notions.
02:41:45 <psygnisfive> secondly, this isnt always true. sometimes the subject follows the verb in english, and there are a number of cases in italian where it follows.
02:42:14 <kerlo> When you come back, tell me what I said that is incorrect, if anything.
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03:09:30 <psygnisfive> its that the notions of subject and object are essentially meaningless
03:09:46 <psygnisfive> subject might be construable as the thing being talked about, but even then its shakey
03:16:12 <psygnisfive> whats more, the position of the "subject" isnt always the same in english
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03:17:16 <psygnisfive> in that the rule for that language isnt universal.
03:17:29 <psygnisfive> in italian, for instance, some "subjects" look like objects, or vice versa
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00:00:05 <ehird> -It now redirects to a subdirectory of "robinhanson.typepad.com".
00:00:11 <ehird> -I assume he's moved over to Less Wrong
00:05:39 <ehird> -"00:04 MyCatVerbs: Berengal: long, pointy things. English people used to put them into French people from long distances. Won a few wars that way."
00:06:23 <nooga> -THERE IS NO GOOD GUI FRAMEWORK FOR RUBY
00:07:56 <nooga> -shoes is good for apple fanboys and kids learning how to hello world
00:08:12 <ehird> -i'm pretty sure why isn't an apple fanboy.
00:08:27 <ehird> -i'm pretty sure I've used shoes for other things, too.
00:08:55 <nooga> -"Shoes is a tiny toolkit for building colorful desktop programs in Ruby"
00:09:07 <ehird> -This is no surprise to anyone.
00:09:09 <ehird> -Except maybe you.
00:10:33 <oerjan> +what a debased accusation
00:12:13 <nooga> -i need something with gridview
00:12:31 <ehird> -you could build that with shoes
00:12:35 <ehird> -another good option is to stop using ruby
00:13:02 <nooga> -but i need to write that app fast
00:13:13 <nooga> -and in ruby it's possible without a hassle
00:13:31 <ehird> -nooga: your inability to find a gui toolkit is not a hassle?
00:21:30 <ehird> -RHYMING POETRY FIGHT
00:21:43 <ehird> -extra points for limericks
00:24:36 <ehird> -00:24 tomh-: i rather use .net/java api's than the one academic haskell people come up with
00:24:41 <ehird> -here we have a textbook masochis
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00:38:11 <ehird> -CLOG HAS BEEN DOWN SINCE YESTERDAY
00:38:13 <ehird> -AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
00:40:26 <ehird> -THIS NEVER HAPPENS
00:40:29 <ehird> -WE'RE BEING LOST IN THE VOID
00:40:32 <ehird> -SHITSHITSHITSHITHSITHISTHSITHISTHIST
00:41:22 <ehird> -ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
01:08:04 <kerlo> +You can use my logs.
01:08:35 <ehird> -kerlo: are they complete?
01:08:39 -!- kerlo has set topic: /prog/ except COOL FREE RINGTONES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | also, http://normish.org/ihope/public_logs/%23esoteric.log.
01:08:45 <kerlo> +Not nearly as complete as clog's.
01:09:19 <ehird> -I mean, do they cover all the blackouβ oh god.
01:09:22 <kerlo> +But they're relatively complete up to wherever they start; I'm here all day.
01:09:25 <ehird> -What if clog doesn't fucking come back?
01:09:46 <kerlo> +Then we find a new bot to log this channel?
01:10:01 <ehird> -You don't understand.
01:10:06 <ehird> -I have a *commitment* to clog.
01:10:09 <ehird> -It's my pal. I get it.
01:10:15 <ehird> -You can't take that away from me.
01:10:17 <kerlo> +No, I don't understand.
01:11:51 <kerlo> +Anyway, I'd like to strip all the CR's from all the CRLF's in a file I have.
01:12:17 <ehird> -sed -ie 's/<CR>//' files
01:12:59 <ehird> -dos2unix is better, kerlo.
01:14:30 <kerlo> +A little bird told me they're the same thing.
01:14:54 <ehird> -That little bird would be wrong.
01:15:09 <kerlo> +And by "a little bird", I mean bash when I told it to run dos2unix and it told me that I can get it by typing sudo apt-get install tofrodos, and what happened when I typed tofrodos afterward.
01:15:36 <ehird> -not bash; that's an ubuntu thingy
01:17:11 <kerlo> +bsmntbombdood: because dos2unix looks more sophisticated.
01:17:31 <ehird> -more sophisticated is a bad thing
01:21:59 <kerlo> +So, I try to install POCO by running make -s (though it says to use gmake -s, not make -s), and it says "sh: /home/ns/Desktop/junk/poco-1.3.3p1/build/script/makedepend.gcc: not found" even though that file exists.
01:22:27 <ehird> -wrong architechture./
01:22:31 <ehird> -stop running 32 bit programs on 64 bit
01:22:37 <ehird> -((do you actually know unix?))
01:23:35 <kerlo> +I'm pretty sure this is a 32-bit system.
01:24:06 <ehird> -kerlo: is it a slicehost?
01:24:18 <kerlo> +No, it's a laptop.
01:24:27 <ehird> -kerlo: How new is it?
01:24:32 <ehird> -If it's newer than a few years, it's 64 bit.
01:24:50 <ehird> -kerlo: what's in the file?
01:24:54 <ehird> -Maybe an unknown interpreter.
01:24:56 <ehird> -On the shebang line
01:26:01 <kerlo> +Hmm, the shebang line has a CR at the end.
01:26:42 <kerlo> +So should I yell at whoever gave me these files for giving me CRLF instead of LF?
01:27:10 <ehird> -kerlo: why are you installing enterprise shit?
01:27:21 <kerlo> +I need this to install FMS.
01:27:32 <kerlo> +And I did indeed download the wrong file.
01:27:33 <ehird> -kerlo: is FMS in your package manager?
01:28:03 <kerlo> +The Freenet Message System.
01:28:20 <ehird> -great; you can talk to pedophiles and idiots.
01:28:25 <ehird> -completely anonymously!
01:55:54 <kerlo> +Bad things, according to Wikipedia.
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02:01:30 <bsmntbombdood> +been a while since i've been on freenet obviously
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07:54:26 <fizzie> Also "tr -d '\r'", though it doesn't do in-place.
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10:52:50 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, remember that ht binary editor?
10:53:14 <AnMaster> +it segfaults when trying to scroll down elf image mode when scrolling down in a huge binary
10:53:48 <AnMaster> +(as you may have gussed, it is a C++ app)
10:55:39 <AnMaster> +and symbol table refuse to scroll past a certain limit hm
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11:17:08 <oerjan> +today's IWC poll should be easy to answer for anyone in here...
11:17:55 <oerjan> +at least if you go for the humor option, as i did
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11:23:42 <Deewiant> +AnMaster: Do you have a 64-bit BSD?
11:53:33 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, well I may be able to access a friend's 64-bit openbsd, it's sparc64 though
11:53:43 <AnMaster> +and I'm not sure it is online currently
11:53:59 <Deewiant> +Nah, just wondering if you had an x86-64 BSD to see if it could run dobelx64
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12:49:42 <nooga> -simple and awesome
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13:47:35 * oklopol_ now officially hates c++, especially symbian
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15:41:30 <AnMaster> +I spent several hours tracking down a bug in some C++ code that turned out to be due to leaky abstractions
15:42:20 <Slereah> -Abstractions are leaking out of my program!
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17:56:27 <ais523> +I'm trying to get a second laptop online
17:56:29 <ais523> +by routing via this one
17:56:45 <AnMaster> +ais523, and you want my help?
17:56:45 <ais523> +I have a wired connection between the two laptops (static IP on 10.0.0.1/8)
17:56:53 <ais523> +I was wondering if you knew anything that might be wrong
17:56:55 <AnMaster> +Sorry but I don't know, I hate networking.
17:57:02 <ais523> +I was going to ask ehird, but he isn't here
17:57:29 <AnMaster> +ais523, set up some NAT thing with iptables/netfilter?
17:57:37 <AnMaster> +and that is just what I heard about
17:57:53 <ais523> +I'm trying a lot simpler than that, just good old-fashioned routing
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18:03:36 <fizzie> You have a public IP for the other laptop, then, if you're going to use good old-fashioned routing?
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18:13:17 <fizzie> NATting with iptables is relatively simple. "iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -i wired_iface -o interweb_iface -s 10.0.0.0/8 -j MASQUERADE" to do NAT on outgoing packets routed from wired_iface to interweb_iface; and then you just need to set the routing laptop as default-route for the other laptop, and possibly echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward. And I'm pretty sure things like Ubuntu's network manager thing have a "enable internet connection sh
18:13:19 <fizzie> aring" button in there somewhere.
18:15:47 <ais523> +fizzie: oh, no public IP
18:15:57 <ais523> +no wonder it couldn't get connection replies
18:16:03 <ais523> +anyway, I'm doing it via a proxy atm, that seems to be working
18:16:39 <ais523> +surprisingly slowly, though
18:17:56 <fizzie> If "slowly" means there seems to be some sort of timeout before anything happens, in my experience those tend to be DNS-related in one way or another. Of course if it's just "slow throughput", then that's not it.
18:18:14 <ais523> +not sure what in particular is slow atm
18:18:26 <ais523> +things like Google take a long time to react, and then load slowly
18:20:06 <fizzie> You're doing just a standard HTTP proxy and not any sort of SOCKS thing, I guess?
18:22:02 <ais523> +HTTP and DNS proxying
18:23:02 <fizzie> Well, if that DNS proxy thing is working, then I don't have any specific ideas. Someone's had this thing, but no replies: http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=546962&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
18:23:18 <ais523> +it seems to be very bursty speed-wise
18:23:31 <ais523> +swinging between several mbps and a few kbps
18:28:30 <ais523> +well, I was stupid to not realise it would need an IP from somewhere
18:28:43 <ais523> +and this laptop's behind a NAT already, I don't think double-NATting works
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18:31:23 <fizzie> There's nothing wrong with double-NATting, though.
18:31:35 <ais523> +where would all the ports come from?
18:31:45 <fizzie> As far as the "outer" NAT is concerned, all the connections are coming from the in-the-middle laptop.
18:32:22 <ais523> +but I thought NAT worked by choosing lots of different reply ports
18:32:41 <ais523> +which laptop determines which ports to use?
18:33:27 <fizzie> There's just two levels of source-port-mapping too.
18:34:14 <ais523> +does the outer NAT give the inner NAT multiple portsthat it can choose between?
18:34:32 <fizzie> The innermost laptop chooses random source ports; the laptop in the middle changes the source port if there happens to be a conflicty thing (and mangles reply packets accordingly) and the outer nat just does the same thing.
18:34:52 <fizzie> There's no way the outer NAT can even distinguish between traffic generated by the in-the-middle laptop or the innermost laptop.
18:35:18 <ais523> +I didn't realise the ports were chosen by the thing inside the NAT
18:35:23 <fizzie> It's not like the NAT box somehow reports the available ports; it just does mappings if there are problems.
18:35:24 <ais523> +I thought the NAT told the thing inside which port to use
18:36:33 <fizzie> The netfilter NAT maps source ports <512 into other source ports <512; ports in the [512, 1023] range into other <1024 ports; and all >=1024 ports to other >=1024 ports; but whenever possible, no port translation is done.
18:37:10 <fizzie> At least that's what the SNAT target description (basically MASQUERADE for a static IP) says.
18:37:51 <fizzie> Anyway, the "if it works" principle says that if you have a working proxey thing that does what you want...
18:40:20 <ais523> +only for HTTP, but that's enough to run package managers which is what I really wanted
18:49:14 <AnMaster> +I hate C++'s leaky abstractions
18:49:28 <AnMaster> +<AnMaster> I spent several hours tracking down a bug in some C++ code that turned out to be due to leaky abstractions
18:50:05 <ais523> +were you trying to treat C++ like a regular object-orietned language?
18:50:10 <ais523> +or was the author of the code?
18:50:35 <AnMaster> +I was getting memory corruption
18:50:47 <ais523> +how did the ?: leak, anyway?
18:51:05 <AnMaster> +ais523, turned out someone had written std::string& foo = condition ? "string constant" : std_string_object;
18:51:22 <AnMaster> +which caused memory corruption in the unusual case of the string constant being selected
18:51:30 <AnMaster> +since object got freed at end of that line
18:53:53 <ais523> +oh, I can see how that could happen
18:54:14 <ais523> +the correct version would be std::string foo = condition ? "string constant" : std_string_object;
18:54:21 <ais523> +to create a copy if needed
18:54:42 <AnMaster> +ais523, but only C++ would allow such a subtle bug to cause memory corruption like it did...
18:54:45 <ais523> +manual memory management is fun
18:55:13 <AnMaster> +well C might, but at least there are much fewer abstractions to dig through when debugging it
18:55:54 <AnMaster> +ais523, actually C++ is a good idea. Just a horrible implementation.
18:56:33 <AnMaster> +I mean combine best of low level C stuff with useful object orientation abstractions. Sounds like a good idea. And objc is a rather good example of it being done right.
18:56:40 <AnMaster> +But C++ manages to pick to worst from each instead.
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18:58:12 <ais523> +I'd say that C++ objects aren't abstractions
18:58:26 <ais523> +they're non-abstract objects
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18:59:16 <AnMaster> +ais523, that doesn't contradict what I said
18:59:27 <AnMaster> +I said C++ managed to pick the worst, not the best
18:59:49 * AnMaster waits for wesnoth AI to calculate
19:00:21 <AnMaster> +it seeems to have trouble on a 95x40 map
19:01:56 <ais523> +the default AI, or one of the custom ones?
19:02:18 <lament> +wesnoth is such a cruel, nasty, and evil game
19:03:02 <AnMaster> +ais523, probably custom for this campaign because one of the AIs on this map is way way way worse than all the others
19:09:26 <ais523> +AnMaster: you're an xorg.conf expert, right/
19:09:50 <ais523> +how do you specify keyboard layout?
19:09:51 <AnMaster> +ais523, not sure if expert is right word. But I know enough to write my own one yeah.
19:10:08 <AnMaster> +I assume you don't use the new ones that uses hal for everything
19:10:28 <ais523> +the laptop here has the wrong keyboard layout, but only when X is running
19:10:48 <AnMaster> +you probably want some more sutff
19:10:51 <ais523> +ah, there are no rules there at all, it seems
19:11:02 <AnMaster> +ais523, then you use hal I guess and then I have no idea.
19:11:04 <ais523> +do you know what the layout code for a UK keyboard is?
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19:11:44 <AnMaster> +ais523, somewhere in /usr/share/X11/ iirc
19:11:54 <AnMaster> +I don't know the layout code for UK no
19:12:39 <Deewiant> +ais523: For hal, settings could be in /etc/hal/fdi/policy or /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy
19:13:33 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, well I tried hal, it loves to misdetect and mess up stuff
19:13:40 <AnMaster> +like my joystick was mapped as a mouse
19:13:56 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, ever tried connecting a USB joystick then+
19:14:10 <Deewiant> +Never owned a USB joystick, only game port :-P
19:14:53 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, also mouse button mapping on my real mousew
19:15:08 <Deewiant> +Of course it's theoretically possible I could have tried to connect somebody else's USB joystick, but no, I haven't
19:15:22 <Deewiant> +All seven mouse buttons work fine for me
19:15:48 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, well it mapped them wrong in my case, scroll wheel click and right button were swapped
19:16:04 <AnMaster> +and scroll wheel didn't work at all
19:16:27 <ais523> +keyboard code for UK is "gb" it seems
19:24:55 <ais523> +anyway, everything working now, thanks
19:25:18 <ais523> +luckily it's a pretty uncustomized system, I just renamed all the dotfiles into a different directory to reset the settings...
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19:40:16 <AnMaster> +ais523, what are you doing btw?
19:43:04 <ais523> +helping my brother install TAEB
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19:43:35 <AnMaster> +ais523, I mean with the extra laptop thing
19:44:13 <AnMaster> +not interested in esolangs is he?
19:49:11 <fizzie> Maybe some sort of swapped-at-birth case, then?
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20:13:29 <AnMaster> +ais523, about manual memory management that we mentioned before.
20:13:54 <ais523> +you really have to know what C++ is doing to manage memory management correctly there
20:14:08 <AnMaster> +yes but that wasn't what I was going to talk
20:14:34 <AnMaster> +rather: I remember seeing a C program that had an internal library for reference counted strings
20:15:34 <AnMaster> +ais523, and this was not to reduce leakage or avoid memory corruption either
20:15:47 <AnMaster> +since it would need to duplicate the string less often
20:16:12 <AnMaster> +I mean, they end up the same way, but the code comments talked about the memory usage aspect only
20:17:31 <AnMaster> +ais523, btw about wesnoth I just ran across a really strange level in a campaign
20:17:43 <AnMaster> +the best way to describe it would be boss battle I think
20:17:51 <AnMaster> +which doesn't fit very well into the idea of wesnoth
20:18:04 <ais523> +I think boss bottles are entirely possible in Wesnoth
20:18:09 <ais523> +although I wouldn't want them every level
20:18:17 <AnMaster> +I can't remember seeing one before
20:18:46 <ais523> +how does it work? is it against just one powerful enemy?
20:19:13 <AnMaster> +mostly, and only recruiting first and second turn
20:19:19 <oerjan> +you can recognize boss bottles by their caps
20:19:42 <AnMaster> +ais523, when oerjan is here, remember to check the spelling
20:19:48 <ais523> +AnMaster: recruiting, or recalling, or both?
20:20:15 <AnMaster> +ais523, anyway there are a few other low level enemies too
20:20:28 <ais523> +there always are in boss battles
20:20:45 <AnMaster> +ais523, well boss seems to be spawning low level enimies
20:21:06 <ais523> +which campaign is it, btw?
20:21:17 <AnMaster> +only works against trunk, not yet mainlined
20:21:33 <ais523> +what does the abbreviation stand for?
20:21:48 <AnMaster> +and I had already started to type that before you asked
20:21:56 <AnMaster> +ais523, it is split in two parts
20:22:29 <ais523> +can you recall from one to the other?
20:22:49 <oerjan> +Invoice from the Underworld
20:22:53 <AnMaster> +ais523, yes you can choose to continue at the end of the first instead
20:23:37 <AnMaster> +ais523, as far as I understood, since this boss battle is in first part, around the middle of it
20:24:09 <oerjan> +Infidels from the Uzbekistan
20:24:23 <AnMaster> +oerjan, this isn't even funny you know...
20:25:14 <AnMaster> +ais523, the campaign takes place after UtBS btw.
20:25:44 <ais523> +wow, that's pretty late
20:25:48 <ais523> +does it have the weird day/night thing?
20:26:08 <oerjan> +Unrelated to Bullshit
20:26:10 <AnMaster> +ais523, except it is underground a lot of the time.
20:26:34 <ehird> -18:43 AnMaster: also you got a brother? heh.
20:26:35 <ais523> +I don't like underground campagins, just because their music isn't as good
20:26:38 <ehird> -that's so weird XD
20:26:41 <ehird> -nobody has a brother
20:26:57 <oerjan> +he's _not_ your ehird
20:26:59 <AnMaster> +ais523, well that is pretty ok in this one
20:27:22 <AnMaster> +a fatal mistake, missing that comma was
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20:27:35 <AnMaster> +(yes grammar messed up was with intent)
20:27:40 <oerjan> +ehird: the so-called "brothers" are all alien spies
20:28:26 <Deewiant> +I mean, if it's /all/, then surely it applies to ais as well
20:28:34 <AnMaster> +ais523, there are references to UtBS, DID, LoW and several other campaigns in it btw.
20:29:27 <oerjan> +Slereah: certainly. you thought they were human?
20:29:43 <Deewiant> +AnMaster: /yaΚ/ interj. Used to express alarm, pain, or surprise.
20:30:26 <oerjan> +actually either swedes or norwegians are aliens too, although we cannot agree which
20:30:30 <AnMaster> +ais523, also there are some huge desert maps that makes the maps in NR seem rather small.
20:30:39 <AnMaster> +ais523, which means it is very slow in some places
20:31:13 <ais523> +the last map of that hammer of whateveritis campaign is pretty masive
20:31:56 <ehird> -Hammer Of Whateveritis
20:32:05 <ehird> -"IE8 to be pushed out via Automatic Updates - yes, even to IE6 users"
20:32:08 <ehird> -Well, that's quite good.
20:32:13 <AnMaster> +ais523, I said it was rather buggy right? this time I only got to recruit during the first turn instead..
20:32:29 <Deewiant> +And yes, it was done with IE7 as well.
20:32:51 <AnMaster> +ais523, yeah, I don't really like the Hammar of Thursag<whatever>n campaign
20:33:11 <AnMaster> +well it is more like that than whateveristis :P
20:34:57 <AnMaster> +ais523, anyway, the reason I dislike it is that it is a tragedy, I mean when you play a game you kind of expect that if you win it there will be a good ending
20:35:14 <ais523> +well, DiD has an even worse ending
20:35:24 <AnMaster> +ais523, yes I dislike that one even more
20:35:54 <ehird> -You know that tragedies have been a fictional device for 7 eons?
20:36:06 <Deewiant> +That doesn't mean he's not allowed to dislike them
20:36:09 <ehird> -If a tragedy is a surprise to you then you're remarkably ignorant.
20:36:10 <AnMaster> +oerjan, actually that may be related, since it is about dwarfs, which in fantasy often get Scandinavian names, or variants of them.
20:36:10 <ais523> +doesn't mean we have to enjoy them
20:36:17 <ehird> -Deewiant: The point is 'expect'.
20:36:20 <ais523> +also, DiD isn't even really a tragedy, it doesn't have an ending
20:36:24 <ehird> -Expecting a non-tragic ending is illogical.
20:36:28 <ais523> +it just goes into a deliberate loose infinite loop
20:36:37 <AnMaster> +ehird, 1) what Deewiant and ais523 said 2) A book, film or whatever differs from a game
20:36:41 <ehird> -Deewiant: That is not what he said.
20:36:47 <ehird> -AnMaster: (2) That is irrelevant.
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20:37:06 <AnMaster> +that is the main point in fact.
20:37:06 <Deewiant> +ehird: Do you always have to take issue with these things? :-P
20:37:10 <ehird> -I would be more convinced if you provided arguments for its relevance, AnMaster.
20:37:18 <ehird> -Deewiant: I disagree with things that are wrong.
20:37:31 <AnMaster> +ehird, I'll bother when you provide arguments for that it is irrelevant.
20:37:43 <ehird> -AnMaster: Please look up "burden of proof".
20:37:48 <oerjan> +Deewiant: if ehird didn't take issue with things he wouldn't be ehird
20:37:50 <Deewiant> +ehird: Doesn't mean you have to complain about them.
20:37:57 <ehird> -Deewiant: I choose to.
20:38:17 <Deewiant> +ehird: So I guess the answer is "yes".
20:39:01 <fizzie> Also: certainly the distribution of themes of endings is different between "games" in general, and, say, books. At least from my biased personal gut-feelingsy viewpoint, it's not like I've seen any hard data.
20:39:44 <Deewiant> +There have certainly been a lot more books than games, which is likely to skew the distribution if we look at the full scale.
20:39:54 <AnMaster> +ehird, I see no reason why you shouldn't have the burden of the proof. Afk again
20:40:10 <ehird> -AnMaster: He who makes the first claim is the one with the burden of proof.
20:40:24 <Deewiant> +If we're just looking at whether something has been used, I suspect books and games won't differ much
20:42:09 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, the thing is the player identifies more with the protagonist of the game, since he/she controls said protagonist, thus the protagonist's actions are the actions of the player. While in a book the reader doesn't take part of the story, he/she is a bystander.
20:42:46 <ehird> -If you don't identify with the characters in a book, you're either a shitty reader or it's a shitty book.
20:42:53 <ehird> -Nonetheless, your point is still irrelevant.
20:43:02 <Deewiant> +(Depends much on the way the story is written but basically true)
20:43:04 <AnMaster> +ehird, sure you do in a book too, but not at the same level.
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20:46:09 <fizzie> Should there be some sort of betting system for AnMaster-ehird-dispute results? ("Mutual ignore", "unidirectional ignore", "running out of steam thanks to a suitable topic-change such as this one", or other such common results.)
20:46:11 <ehird> -Yay, I found that demoscene recording I mentioned ages ago. http://capped.tv/playeralt.php?vid=asd-lifeforce
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20:46:24 <ehird> -fizzie: I haven't ignored AnMaster for months.
20:46:53 <fizzie> Ooh, I remember the hand thing of Lifeforce. I guess it was at an Assembly event, then.
20:48:06 <AnMaster> +how does one play it without flash
20:48:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you had that youtube thing set up, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7NqQ30KfAo
20:48:30 <ehird> -fizzie: worse quality
20:48:32 <ehird> -so I wouldn't bother.
20:49:00 <Deewiant> +There's a link to an avi right below the flash anim
20:49:11 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, not when flash is missing
20:49:20 <ehird> -Pouet / Binary / Avi / Capped - Report
20:49:23 <ehird> -It's bloody HTML.
20:49:33 <ehird> -Unless you disabled HTML too because it's a security risk.
20:50:17 <Deewiant> +fizzie: Looks like it won 'combined demo' at asm 2007, indeed.
20:50:37 <ehird> -http://capped.micksam7.com/mp4/asd-lifeforce.mp4
20:50:52 <Deewiant> +If you're feeling lucky, try the binary under wine
20:50:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, with a wide margin, I think.
20:50:58 <ehird> -Progressively load in the player of your choice, AnMaster.
20:51:19 <AnMaster> +ehird, can't atm, have music playing, so would be a mess out sounds
20:51:20 <ehird> -Deewiant: I kind of doubt that works for most demoscene stuff.
20:51:45 <Deewiant> +ehird: Hence "[i]f you're feeling lucky".
20:52:11 <fizzie> There have been very few demos I could've run with my hardware, even if running Windows, lately. At least well. They tend to be rather resource-intensive, after all.
20:52:32 <ehird> -Yeah, realtime high-quality 3d rendering is a bit of a bitch.
20:52:52 <Deewiant> +Especially when you're doing it in 4k and generating everything procedurally. :-P
20:53:01 <ehird> -Lifeforce was in 4k?
20:53:06 <ehird> -I imagine it was a lil bigger than that.
20:53:18 <Deewiant> +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWMGuh15nE was, though.
20:53:29 <ehird> -AnMaster: wow what
20:53:36 <fizzie> And conversely the VIC-20 things are so bizarre that emulators run them not-well, even though there certainly would be enough computing powar.
20:53:53 <ehird> -Lifeforce wasn't 4k.
20:53:57 <ehird> -As we have established.
20:54:06 <ehird> -Deewiant's message came after yours...
20:54:38 <ehird> -β this is in reaction to the heat death of the universe
20:54:39 <AnMaster> +<Deewiant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWMGuh15nE was, though.
20:54:45 <ehird> -20:53 AnMaster: wow
20:54:46 <ehird> -20:53 Deewiant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWMGuh15nE was, though.
20:54:51 <Deewiant> +2009-04-13 22:53:13 ( AnMaster) wow
20:54:51 <Deewiant> +2009-04-13 22:53:17 ( Deewiant) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWMGuh15nE was, though.
20:54:54 <ehird> -A second after another.
20:54:57 <Deewiant> +ehird: Your timestamps are so imprecise. :-P
20:55:08 <ehird> -Deewiant: Heh, AnMaster's client is reordering time-space.
20:55:26 <fizzie> Viznut's VIC-20 speech synthesizer, for example, was rather unintelligible on an emulator. (Not that it was that much better on hardware, but still.)
20:55:49 <AnMaster> +ehird, it is the effect of the future implementation of TRDS in cfunge. Caused a time-space-time singularity
20:56:18 <AnMaster> +reversed polarity quantum time-space-time singularity even
20:56:46 <Deewiant> +AnMaster: Can we expect it in the next release, then? With that kind of power I imagine it travelled to the present so you wouldn't have to write it
20:57:06 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, no, this happened in 2038
20:57:40 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, and it lock up the positron flux if you try to move it backwards over 32-bit epoch
20:58:01 <Deewiant> +I thought your code was bittiness-agnostic?
20:58:07 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's some nice scenery in a 4k intro.
20:58:28 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, yes it was, but the singularity collapsed it to 32-bit dependant
20:58:38 <Deewiant> +AnMaster: So it broke itself? :-P
20:59:06 <Deewiant> +You have to be careful when coding for speed, things start to fall apart when you're going too fast
20:59:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Well, you know, it's not *that* special... just sort-of nice."
20:59:29 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, yes TRDS and high speed interact badly
20:59:36 <AnMaster> +better not make ccbi any faster
21:00:01 <Deewiant> +fizzie: Meh, I thought it was impressive.
21:00:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, I just get this itch whenever I use superlatives. Otherwise I'd describe it as spectacular. (*scratch, scratch*)
21:01:28 <Deewiant> +You'll find that you haven't used a superlative yet.
21:02:01 <ehird> -I AM A SUPERLATIVE ON FIRE
21:02:32 <AnMaster> +ehird, except for the caps that was a very lament-style comment
21:02:44 <Deewiant> +fizzie: The last one you used was, in fact, "easiest", 2009-04-09 14:16:57.
21:02:55 <AnMaster> +well maybe he would have excluded the "I am" bit too
21:03:08 <ehird> -it was not a very lament comment.
21:06:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: "1. (1) superlative -- (an exaggerated expression (usually of praise); "the critics lavished superlatives on it")" -- I was using this sense rather than the literal form-of-adjective thing.
21:06:58 <fizzie> Not that "spectacular" is exaggerated in this situation. You win, I lose.
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22:26:41 * ehird 's computer decides to spin fans at full speed for no reason
22:26:52 <ehird> -And then stops them again.
22:42:26 <Sgeo> +"Don't tell him it's a musical, 'cause then he might kill us all"
22:48:24 <oerjan> +is that a quote from a musical?
22:49:29 * oerjan googleth and finds something Horrible
23:07:42 <lament> +http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hanakapiai_Beach_Warning_Sign_Only.jpg
23:09:39 <Sgeo> +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgYdhm_q7lg so beautiful
23:29:19 <ehird> -lament: Reverted to earlier version
23:29:20 <ehird> -lament: Reverted to earlier version
23:29:21 <ehird> -lament: Reverted to earlier version
23:29:22 <ehird> -lament: Reverted to earlier version
23:29:55 <ehird> -Someone shopped in another tally :D
23:32:49 <Sgeo> +"We're gonna pick - pick - pick - pick - pick it apart,
23:32:49 <Sgeo> +Open it up to find the tick - tick - tick of a heart."
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00:04:24 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:04:47 <ehird> -anyone know forth?
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00:12:52 <oklopol_> -<ehird> Oh, Mrza and cs. He mistake made today. Preside tZe. Yes, said to ..... β The ever wise voice of Dasher. <<< thought this was a nigerian scam :P
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00:21:49 <oklopol_> -AnMaster: i spent almost an hour fixing a simple error where abs was for integers and not for doubles; of course it was just because carbide (the symbian compiler ide thingy) sucks at error messages, and i didn't exactly expect not to get an error for using a fucking int-to-int abs function in the middle of floating point code.
00:22:31 <ehird> -oklopol_: wut are you doing with symbian
00:22:33 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, err man abs vs man fabs
00:22:51 <ehird> -AnMaster: erm, way to miss the polint.
00:23:10 <ehird> -what, you agree that you missed the point?
00:23:14 <oklopol_> -i wrote two versions of that abs since carbide's math didn't know it and i didn't feel like making my own math class at first and i just needed it in two places; then when i made the class i accidentally copied the wrong one; this was after 12 hours of coding, wasn't feeling all that bright.
00:23:16 <ehird> -congrats; the first step is admitting you have a problem
00:24:09 <AnMaster> +I had another problem with floating point recently
00:24:36 <AnMaster> +the difference between integer_variable / 2241.5 and integer_variable / 2241.5L caused rounding errors
00:25:16 <oerjan> +ehird: you are aware that the second step is to believe in a higher power? *ducks*
00:25:42 <AnMaster> +oerjan, yes the Almighty duck indeed.
00:26:09 <oerjan> +well i guess that will do
00:30:07 <oklopol_> -<ehird> Expecting a non-tragic ending is illogical. <<< no it isn't, in a game
00:31:11 <oklopol_> -and clearly a game is different from movies and books, in a game you do your best, and in a tragedy you get kicked in the nuts, whereas in a movie you'll just think oh dear, these people were unlucky
00:31:17 <oklopol_> -that said, i hate non-tragedic endings
00:33:39 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, that summary of the difference is what I was trying to say before. But you expressed it way more clearly
00:34:14 <oklopol_> -<AnMaster> oklopol_, err man abs vs man fabs <<< symbian has traditional libs too?
00:34:29 <ehird> -being kicked in the nuts is part of playing a game.
00:34:43 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, they would be libc, thus being part of a conforming C environment?
00:35:00 <oklopol_> -<ehird> oklopol_: wut are you doing with symbian <<< i have a course in mobile programming, main project is the c++ one, python and java for extra credits
00:35:02 <ehird> -... you supplied oklopol_ no extra information
00:35:04 <AnMaster> +but maybe it was freestanding?
00:35:11 <ehird> -oklopol_: what actual phone?
00:36:04 <oklopol_> -<ehird> why? <<< well i haven't seen one; i guess otherwise wouldn't.
00:36:04 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, anyway being part of the C standard library it must have those functions, unless it is a freestanding environment. Was it that?
00:36:33 <ehird> -AnMaster: what oklopol_ is saying is that symbian doesn't have libc.
00:36:59 <oklopol_> -<AnMaster> oklopol_, that summary of the difference is what I was trying to say before. But you expressed it way more clearly <<< still ehird countered this pretty well with his comment about identifying with characters and shit; i just don't think it's quite the same kind of identification
00:37:26 <oklopol_> -<ehird> being kicked in the nuts is part of playing a game. <<< yes, until you finally beat the game and get your reward.
00:37:40 <ehird> -well maybe I'm a masochist
00:38:00 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, in that case. Is the environment freestanding?
00:38:19 <ehird> -AnMaster: IT HAS ITS OWN LIBC REPLACEMENT
00:38:24 <ehird> -why is this hard to understand
00:38:35 <oklopol_> -ehird: me too. i'm just saying i think AnMaster makes perfect sense; i totally agree happy endings are gay
00:38:51 <ehird> -yep, happy endings are happy.
00:39:13 <pikhq> +I strongly suspect it's just kicking the C standard in the balls.
00:39:24 <oklopol_> -my favorite sp episode is stanley's cup
00:39:30 <AnMaster> +now why couldn't ehird just have said that.
00:39:39 <ehird> -"IT HAS ITS OWN LIBC REPLACEMENT"
00:39:51 <ehird> -even retarded monkeys could comprehend that!!
00:39:56 <AnMaster> +ehird, that isn't same as "kicking C standard in balls"
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00:40:10 <oklopol_> -symbian has a whole different memory allocation scheme
00:40:25 <pikhq> +I agree with ehird there.
00:40:39 <AnMaster> +well it *could* be freestanding and just provide limits.h and a few other headers
00:40:48 <pikhq> +And would like to see violence over IP.
00:40:54 <oklopol_> -and a whole different library scheme
00:40:54 <ehird> -Caught up in standards world, la la la la.
00:40:55 <AnMaster> +but you claim that is not the case?
00:41:00 <oklopol_> -it's not really c++, say many.
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00:41:22 <ehird> -pikhq: your IP is wimpy. it's all 33.42.127.4
00:41:32 <AnMaster> +In a freestanding environment (in which C program execution may take place without any beneο¬t of an operating system), the name and type of the function called at program startup are implementation-deο¬ned. Any library facilities available to a freestanding program, other than the minimal set required by clause 4, are implementation-deο¬ned.
00:42:06 <oklopol_> -let me tell you a bit about how symbian does cosines
00:42:22 <oklopol_> -Math::Cos(myresult,myargument);
00:42:49 <AnMaster> +A conforming freestanding implementation shall accept any strictly conforming program that does not use complex types and in which the use of the features speciο¬ed in the library clause (clause 7) is conο¬ned to the contents of the standard headers <float.h>, <iso646.h>, <limits.h>, <stdarg.h>, <stdbool.h>, <stddef.h>, and <stdint.h>. A conforming implementation may have extensions (including addit
00:42:49 <AnMaster> +ional library functions), provided they do not alter the behavior of any strictly conforming program.
00:43:03 <ehird> -AnMaster: Why are you quoting standards.
00:43:04 <AnMaster> +but the list of headers will be smaller
00:43:11 <pikhq> +ehird: It's all dialup. :(
00:43:20 <ehird> -pikhq: ... you're on dialup?
00:43:31 <AnMaster> +ehird, since you seemed unaware of what a freestanding environment was
00:43:39 <ehird> -AnMaster: i'm perfectly aware, thank you very much
00:43:47 <AnMaster> +ehird, you didn't act like it
00:43:48 <ehird> -pikhq: why on earth
00:44:07 <ehird> -AnMaster: if you can quote one instance where I acted like I didn't know what it was I'll chop my own head off.
00:44:28 <oklopol_> -<AnMaster> oklopol_, that's C++y <<< what?
00:44:35 <pikhq> +ehird: Lack of broadband access.
00:44:35 <AnMaster> +<oklopol_> Math::Cos(myresult,myargument);
00:44:44 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, since when does C have ::
00:44:45 <ehird> -pikhq: where are you; buttfuck usa?
00:44:54 <oklopol_> -AnMaster: c++ has classes so you need to do that less.
00:45:01 <pikhq> +Buttfuck, MO, USA.
00:45:16 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, no that is C++ not C
00:45:37 <AnMaster> +well a conforming C++... no clue could be anything as far as I kno
00:45:37 <oklopol_> -AnMaster: yeah i'm not saying it's bad it's using a static method to look like a namespace
00:45:44 <oklopol_> -you get the same benefits as with namespaces anyway.
00:45:55 <oklopol_> -i'm saying why not just have Math::cos(arg)
00:46:48 <oklopol_> -"using a static method to look like a namespace"?
00:47:01 <AnMaster> +since C++ does have namespaces
00:47:09 <AnMaster> +there is no point in doing it like that
00:47:09 <oklopol_> -Math::Cos <<< you thought Math was a namespace?
00:47:16 <oklopol_> -i thought they were usually lowercase
00:47:22 <oklopol_> -anyway symbian doesn't really do namespaces.
00:48:34 <oklopol_> -AnMaster: and yes there is a point, in fact my opinion is it makes more sense to use classes for both purposes. then again i like java in most aspects, although like all sensible people i do hate how it practically turns out.
00:48:55 <oklopol_> -well, java has packages too, but they are umm.
00:49:22 <ehird> -oklopol_ is turning all practical
00:51:08 <AnMaster> +ehird, nothing wrong with that
00:51:24 <ehird> -AnMaster: it's ruining oklopol_ity
00:52:10 <oklopol_> -well okay i guess packages aren't all that different, it's just they don't "solve the issue" in java, because you need to have your methods classified anyway.
00:52:17 <oklopol_> -how you can decipher that term.
00:52:34 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, they are top secret?
00:53:19 <AnMaster> +(sorry oerjan that I stole that line from you)
00:53:37 <oklopol_> -tbh i don't think that really works after i've addressed it myself
00:53:48 <oklopol_> -but i'll let ehird tell you that in proper terms maybe ;)
00:54:13 <oklopol_> -oh my god coffee would be tasty
00:54:31 <AnMaster> +yeah he will complain soon (unless he decides not to due to me predicting he will)
00:55:55 <oklopol_> -stepping on metalevels is not the answer, ehird i the master of that (see countless spammings of a pattern ehird started extrapolating :D)
00:57:13 <oklopol_> -hope he doesn't take that as somekinda insult and as me to show examples; in general i hate that, because hey it's like i actually have references to interesting conversations in a list
00:57:38 <ehird> -oklopol_: should i be all predictable or should I be predictable by not being predictable
00:57:53 <oklopol_> -ehird: i don't understand that, sorry.
00:58:39 <oklopol_> -the only option is to go get it from somewhere else
00:58:43 <ehird> -oklopol_: we can tell
00:58:45 <oklopol_> -and there is just one place open
00:59:07 <oklopol_> -it's like this place where some things pump gas
00:59:30 <oklopol_> -but you need to buy it before they let you drink it 8|
00:59:32 <ehird> -if you want coffee
00:59:34 <ehird> -you could go there
00:59:37 <ehird> -otherwise youcould
00:59:42 <ehird> -oklopol_: okay so
00:59:50 <ehird> -if you have money
01:00:04 <ehird> -how much do you want coffee
01:00:13 <ehird> -i think you should go there
01:00:25 <oklopol_> -okay yes i guess i should give money then drink it
01:00:35 <oklopol_> -ok back yes, probably i should come back then
01:00:48 <oklopol_> -thank you for your countless help.
01:01:08 <ehird> -you forgot the -> thing
01:01:25 <oklopol_> -just you know looking for my underpants
01:01:52 <ehird> -oklopol_: well why do you need them?
01:02:56 <oklopol_> -for underpants, no i wouldn't need them, i just happened to find them first
01:03:56 <oklopol_> -i have weird psychological issues with nudity, i don't want my neighbors seeing me walk naked
01:04:21 <ehird> -what time it is in Fin-"Not Actually Real"-land oklopol_?
01:04:26 <oklopol_> -yes, also often people i don't even know
01:05:05 <oklopol_> -just the other day i really tried to take my shirt off, you know like some people do it in the summer, although of course just to see if i could; i couldn't, because there was *one human* around
01:05:24 <ehird> -what time it is in Fin-"Sort Of Fake"-land oklopol_?
01:06:05 <ehird> -so it's pi+0:01 in fi
01:06:16 <oklopol_> -heh i assumed it was a name for the time zone :)
01:06:31 <oklopol_> -and you said +0:01 because my time was wrong
01:06:35 <ehird> -[careless transpositions cost lives]
01:06:42 <ehird> -oklopol_: haha a tz one minute off :D
01:07:11 <oklopol_> -if you're interesting in the details, the reason for my failure was it's +0:10, with that interpretation
01:07:20 <oklopol_> -yeah interesting in the details
01:07:34 <oklopol_> -anyway and i like correcting people.
01:07:44 <oklopol_> -so i see errors where others don't ...even make them
01:14:46 <AnMaster> +ehird, so watched that demo thing. Bloody amazing indeed.
01:15:08 <ehird> -Yes. It's actually only 3 bytes.
01:15:20 <ehird> -To the effect of "open demo.avi".
01:17:32 <AnMaster> +ehird, that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWMGuh15nE&fmt=18 was rather impressive too
01:19:14 <AnMaster> +I rather liked the music of the last one too
01:21:24 <AnMaster> +ehird, what was that game that had do huge system reqs it had become a mem?
01:21:33 <AnMaster> +you mentioned it a few days ago
01:22:43 <AnMaster> +those guys at EA should get these demo guys to rewrite it. Probably not 4 KB. Maybe 16 KB would be more realistic for it
01:23:03 <AnMaster> +but GPU and CPU reqs would skyrocket I guess
01:27:46 <pikhq> +It could very well go down...
01:28:00 <pikhq> +Those demo guys are used to doing stuff with limited hardware.
01:28:17 <pikhq> +Remember: these are people that do things like raytracing on a C64.
01:28:31 <AnMaster> +pikhq, programatically generated textures and so on
01:28:32 <oklopol_> -hope you can decipher that term.
01:28:47 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, you are lucky and found some money?
01:29:30 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, or since you talked about coffee above, it could be a reference to starbucks
01:29:44 <oklopol_> -look deeper, and you'll still find nothing
01:30:03 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, yes I found something
01:30:15 <pikhq> +You just went hunting and killed a buck.
01:30:31 <oklopol_> -anyway i visited two places, in the first i said something that made seemingly no sense, but i would've needed a 2-minute explanation before it would've made sense, so i just left really embarrassed
01:30:34 <AnMaster> +oklopol_, pure oko essence...
01:31:45 <oerjan> +oklopol_ always bucks the trend
01:31:49 <oklopol_> -because i left the first places for another one for better coffee, and said it was because coffee was too expensive there (not literally ofc, that sounded kinda mean, but that was the idea, i guess it was a lesson in not sharing your business strategy).
01:32:55 <oklopol_> -but i really did leave for that reason, i mean if i buy expensive coffee, i care more about taste than quantity; it just sounded really weird the way i said it.
01:34:52 <oklopol_> -or course in this case expensive and good means i buy coffee and ice cream separately, then mix them; but that would've been another 2-minute explanation.
01:35:55 <AnMaster> +<oklopol_> or course in this case expensive and good means i buy coffee and ice cream separately, then mix them; but that would've been another 2-minute explanation.
01:36:36 <AnMaster> +there are certain things mankind is not meant to know
01:36:50 <AnMaster> +mixing ice-cream and coffee is one of htem
01:37:32 * oerjan still misses the frozen cappuccino at that place that burnt down here some years ago
01:37:57 * oklopol_ considers coffee with oerjan instead of cod
01:38:14 <oerjan> +well it was a kind of ice coffee
01:38:33 <AnMaster> +frozen coffee, ice-cream and cod?
01:38:46 <AnMaster> +that would be a horrible combo I bet
01:38:58 <oklopol_> -oerjan: ohhh like mashed ice or whazzit called
01:39:30 <oklopol_> -oh my satanic hell this stuff is divine
01:39:35 <oerjan> +i think they used actual ice cubes + ice cream in a blender
01:42:02 <oklopol_> -where's the burned down + frozen coffee pun!
01:43:45 <oerjan> +well the whole block burnt down with the place, although it started in their frying oil...
01:44:20 <oerjan> +trondheim has a lot of trouble keeping old wood buildings from going *poof*
01:45:24 <oklopol_> -turku had a similar problem a few hundred years ago
01:46:03 <oerjan> +well so did trondheim, but it was rebuilt
01:46:28 <oerjan> +with broad streets, but still wood buildings
01:47:05 <oerjan> +so now they usually just burn down one at a time :/
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02:08:03 <oklopol_> -new cartoons are confusing, i mean it was simple when everything turned out either like you expected it would, or the other way around, but nowadays it's about constantly tilting the situation, and somehow trying to end up in a surprise even thought the watched is out for pretty much anything.
02:08:57 <oklopol_> -reference to stan's dad the crook having changed his ways.
02:11:03 <oklopol_> -turned out he hadn't, but did. i guess that could've been obvious, but somehow they managed to make me think they were going for an easy tragic ending when he, by admitting he was a crook all along, managed to convince stan to give a heartfelt speech at court; but stan couldn't get there.
02:12:14 <oklopol_> -of course it kinda breaks the fourth wall by making you think more about the writers than the characters, but that's pretty much what makes these shows interesting.
02:13:16 <oklopol_> -and actually a very recent episode of american dad was really weird, actually showing film crew in their house, filming the show; and this is a very non self referring show
02:14:09 <oklopol_> -anyway you probably aren't interested in ad, so that latter comment was kinda redundant
02:14:33 <oklopol_> -prior ones weren't, i think that's a very interesting phenomenon
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02:19:14 <oklopol_> -having been awake for about 3 hours, that doesn't sound very tempting
02:19:43 <oklopol_> -will probably drink a massive cup of coffee watching another ep, then read
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02:47:39 <GregorR> +A friend of mine was trying to suggest gross foods, and one of them he suggested was jalapeΓ±o jelly. I thought it would be pretty good. And lo and behold, it exists!
02:48:07 <pikhq> +Jalepe~no jelly? Damn, I want some.
02:48:21 <GregorR> +I can't figure out what to put it on.
02:48:25 <GregorR> +It's clearly not a bread jelly.
02:49:03 <pikhq> +Crackers, tortilla chips?
03:16:01 <GregorR> +It's like ... super-super-super-super-super sweet.
03:16:37 <GregorR> +It tastes like jalapeno, but 10000 times as sweet, and barely spicy at all.
03:16:37 <pikhq> +Needs more capsaicin.
03:26:24 <GregorR> +I like jalapeno, I would like good jalapeno jelly, but there is no effing way that this is good jalapeno jelly.
03:28:45 <GregorR> +Disney is making a movie called Earth
03:28:58 <GregorR> +Don't you think it's a /bit/ pretentious to call a movie "Earth"?
03:30:05 <oklopol_> -i'm not as intelligent as you, you will have to explain why that's pretentious.
03:31:18 <GregorR> +"Earth" is such a vast scope, labeling something as "Earth" (at least, a nature documentary) is like naming a movie "God". Oh really, Disney, this movie will explain the Earth to me? Or is it that you've decided what the "important" parts of Earth are?
03:33:39 <GregorR> +Charlie, get on the duck, the blehblehbleh are right behind you!
03:35:35 <oklopol_> -hmm. okay, i do feel that way about "god" as a movie title. well except if god was main character.
03:36:39 <oklopol_> -i assumed more like a silly cartoon with aliens.
03:37:15 <GregorR> +Nonono, that would just be weirdish.
03:37:31 <GregorR> +That's what makes it pretentious.
03:38:34 <oklopol_> -okay, then i totally agree. well, "totally" doesn't really mean anything nowadays, maybe more like completely.
03:38:45 <pikhq> +"Earth" sounds like some documentary that an alien civilization would make.
03:38:45 <pikhq> +And skip over almost everything.
03:39:16 <oklopol_> -that would be a great documentary
03:39:42 <GregorR> +Here it is: The Earth is a small planet, inhabited primarily by single-celled organisms. There are also some simple multicellular organisms, but none that have evolved true intelligence.
03:40:06 <pikhq> +It would be great, but not for the same reasons it was meant to be enjoyed...
03:40:10 <oklopol_> -yeah i was just thinking maybe they could look at cities at ant level or smaller, and not even consider humans that important
03:40:36 <GregorR> +Now I kind of want to make this :P
03:40:44 <pikhq> +"There's this one that shows promise... Now, if they could just replace those flippers with some more useful limbs."
03:41:16 <oklopol_> -probably it would be biased though, one way or another.
03:41:30 <oklopol_> -probably a bit of an understatement
03:41:47 <GregorR> +But it's supposed to be :P
03:41:52 <GregorR> +This is supposed to be a comedy :P
03:42:16 <oklopol_> -GregorR: i mean biased, considering an outsider documentary the norm. :)
03:43:29 <oklopol_> -i just saw a documentary about how dogs are more intelligent than chimpanzees in many senses, when humans are involved
03:44:12 <oklopol_> -that is, about how they understand humans better; a bit of a biased view of intelligent ofc, but that's the only way this could be relevant, so i had to bend it a bit.
03:44:48 <oklopol_> -i mean i see a documentary every 3 years, hard not to tell people about it!
03:47:31 <GregorR> +"This species is one of the few that survives in nearly every terrestrial environment on Earth, and has also developed a primitive form of verbal communication, used to communicate simple desires. Their term for themselves seems to be "fucker", so we will use this term. Fuckers have complicated mating rituals [cut to guy typing something at a computer] and are one of the few species that have taken advantage of these unique rock formations found on Ear
03:47:32 <GregorR> +th [pictures of skyscrapers]
03:50:57 <oklopol_> -also i would love to see experiments done on humans by aliens where they misunderstand motives completely
03:51:24 <GregorR> +Asimov has a great short story about aliens trying to make humans mate.
03:51:34 <oklopol_> -it would be like reading medieval medicine
03:52:13 <oklopol_> -"there are four type of flow in a human body"
03:53:08 <pikhq> +GregorR: Man, I love that story of his.
03:53:32 <pikhq> +If you would like a laugh, realise that that was printed in... Playboy.
03:54:24 <oklopol_> -including the naked pics of course.
03:58:26 <GregorR> +Bleh, can't find it now, but found http://images.slashdot.org/articles/08/10/20/1426247-1.png :P
04:02:14 <oklopol_> -i've actually been trying to find a braille book
04:02:51 <oklopol_> -assuming that's braille, if there are other standards, i might not be able to tell the difference.
04:04:20 <Slereah> -I only read it for the articles
04:05:43 <GregorR> +Yes, that would be braille :P
04:06:10 <Slereah> -There's other standards than braille
04:06:14 -!- oklopol_ has changed nick to oklopol.
04:06:53 <Slereah> -One of them is pretty much a very simplified version of the latin script
04:07:11 <GregorR> +http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playboy_and_the_Slime_God
04:07:29 <GregorR> +pikhq: Wrong, it was a /satire/ of a story in Playboy :P
04:09:22 <pikhq> +Thought it was satire of something in the previous issue; my memory fails me.
04:11:58 <GregorR> +"Trying to have a conversation with you is like having a conversation, but with an idiot."
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05:54:42 <GregorR> +pikhq, oklopol, anybody else: I think we should seriously get together and write and direct our "Earth" short film.
05:55:33 <GregorR> +We need a few writers coordinating (btw, I vote gibberish with English subtitles), at least one person good at video editing, and a never-ending pile of archive footage which shouldn't be too difficult to find.
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05:56:58 <pikhq> +I vote well-crafted gibberish. And, yes, we should make it.
05:57:30 <GregorR> +Yes, the gibberish will have to be crafted very carefully. Who enjoys constructed languages the most?
05:57:44 <GregorR> +(Making it not gibberish, but anyway :P )
05:57:58 <pikhq> +That could be damned tricky to say.
05:58:11 <pikhq> +Most of us seem to have at least some fondness for conlangs, after all.
05:58:21 <GregorR> +I don't think I'm all that good at it though :P
05:58:50 <GregorR> +Anyway, that seems like an easy way to add endless complication that will stall the project before it starts.
05:59:04 <Sgeo> +Hm, I know someone in Sine who likes linguistic stuff
05:59:49 <pikhq> +I'd mostly recommend picking a set of phonemes and valid ways they can be constructed, and run with it from there.
05:59:50 <Sgeo> +<Sgeo> <person>, some people in fn#esoteric are talking about how they want well-crafted gibberish
05:59:59 <Sgeo> +(<person> of course replaced by the person)
06:00:19 <GregorR> +pikhq: Ideally they'd be utterly non-human-pronounceable phonemes, but lets take what we can get ;)
06:01:11 <pikhq> +Ideally, yes. The best we can do is something similar to how Klingon works, with rare phonemes and completely bizarre uses of them.
06:03:57 <Sgeo> +GregorR, some Siners remember you
06:04:58 <GregorR> +Sgeo: TBH, I don't even remember the address now >_>
06:05:52 <Sgeo> +Any particular reason you stopped coming?
06:09:07 <GregorR> +https://codu.org/wiki/index.php?title=Earth
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06:31:20 * Sgeo lost the Game.
06:31:46 <GregorR> +WTF, I just lost The Game again.
06:31:49 <GregorR> +I had already forgotten about it.
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07:07:09 <pikhq> +By the way, I love saying that in the MST cafeteria.
07:07:34 <pikhq> +It being a somewhat geeky college, I doubt there's anyone there who *doesn't* know of it.
07:09:58 <pikhq> +It's a vaguely interesting meme.
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07:39:11 <bsmntbombdood> +how do you represent a list so that sorted-p takes less than O(n) time?
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07:50:25 <bsmntbombdood> +given a list, you need to be able to verify that it is sorted in sublinear time, and merge it with another list in linear time
07:58:50 <lifthrasiir> -seems impossible... why do you need such one?
08:00:24 <lifthrasiir> -where does verification take place? a part of merging process?
08:02:17 <lifthrasiir> -if sorting node cannot be trusted that seems logical, and as pointed by Gracenotes you can verify it while merging
08:03:02 <lifthrasiir> -(where i mean by sublinear time is not O(n/k) complexity, not something like n-k instructions and so)
08:03:26 <Gracenotes> +just keep track of the last merged item of each list, check either for one list or another list, depending on what you merge in the current iteration
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08:04:29 <Gracenotes> +something like that. For checking sorted in a distributed manner.. you just need to see if A[i] < A[i+1] for 0 < i < n
08:04:45 <Gracenotes> +and partition that task for ranges of i's. If I get what you mean.
08:05:14 * Gracenotes is not sure what the requirements are :)
08:05:42 <Gracenotes> +either way at least n-1 comparisons need to be made to check sortedness. somethin like.
08:06:07 <lifthrasiir> -Gracenotes: but if nodes cannot be trusted, it doesn't work since verification also takes place in the nodes
08:06:49 <Gracenotes> +mm. what do you mean that they can't be trusted?
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08:07:49 <lifthrasiir> -Gracenotes: a node that returns incorrect result. if all node can be trusted you don't have to verify the list :p
08:08:25 <lifthrasiir> -though i'm not sure that bsmntbombdood is in such case
08:12:27 <Gracenotes> +what does a faulty result entail? a timeout, an outright lie..?
08:14:49 <bsmntbombdood> +given a zillion agents who may or may not want to help you, sort this large list as fast as possibly
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11:21:44 <oerjan> +< pikhq> "Earth" sounds like some documentary that an alien civilization would make.
11:22:21 <oerjan> +i recall once i saw this cartoon with a premise a bit like that
11:23:10 <oerjan> +except the aliens thought the _cars_ were the intelligent beings, and humans were parasites on them
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16:24:21 <Slereah> -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1wZbIdlSTI
16:24:31 <Slereah> -There's the lisp in lisp one in that video
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17:11:59 <GregorR> +I see there have been /substantial/ changes to the Earth page on codu wiki.
17:12:05 <GregorR> +I'm so glad people are contributing :P
17:14:06 <GregorR> +(Codu wiki requires registration, which pretty effectively kills spam)
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17:51:43 <ehird> -Clog is still dead.
17:51:50 <ehird> -The end of an era?
17:52:30 <ehird> -well, tunes.org is up, but the TUNES people are remarkably competent.
17:53:10 <ais523> +clog /and/ cmeme are down?
17:53:16 <ais523> +hey, this means we can post on rafb again
17:53:28 <ehird> -http://normish.org/ihope/public_logs/%23esoteric.log
17:53:51 <ehird> -& if clog isn't back very soon I'll set up my own bot
17:53:55 <ais523> +that was pretty cleverly noticed by you
17:54:00 <ehird> -no, ihope noticed it
17:54:02 <ehird> -by pointing it out
17:54:05 <ehird> -when I said clog was down yesterday
17:54:14 <GregorR> +My color matcher data gatherer is finally back up.
17:54:27 <GregorR> +I moved it to codu.org (whyTF did I have it hosted on my home computer anyway :P )
17:54:42 <ehird> -yeah, well, so's your face
17:55:29 <ehird> -on the topic of awesome terrible food combinations; chocolate covered bacon
17:55:49 <ehird> -22:31 < GregorR> "Earth" is such a vast scope, labeling something as "Earth" (at least, a nature documentary) is like naming a movie "God". Oh really, Disney, this movie will explain the Earth to me? Or is it that you've decided what the "important" parts of Earth are?
17:56:04 <ehird> -GregorR: what about Cosmos
17:56:12 <ehird> -what does that say about carl sagan's ego
17:57:01 <ehird> -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_(disambiguation)#Film
17:57:46 <ehird> -22:38 < pikhq> "Earth" sounds like some documentary that an alien civilization would make.
17:57:46 <ehird> -22:38 < pikhq> And skip over almost everything.
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18:04:08 <ehird> -http://codu.org/wiki/index.php?title=Earth β GregorR: I would edit if I didn't have to register
18:04:45 <ehird> -02:39 < bsmntbombdood> how do you represent a list so that sorted-p takes less than O(n) time?
18:07:47 <ais523> +ehird: by sorting it during insert
18:07:59 <ehird> -i didn't say it :P
18:08:05 <ais523> +ofc, that makes insert O(n)
18:08:12 <ais523> +you can't even use an n log n sort overall
18:08:22 <ais523> +because that would require doing /something/ when you retrieved the list
18:08:23 <oklopol> -ais523: how woulf sorted-p go then?
18:08:33 <ais523> +oklopol: it would be the identity function
18:08:45 <ais523> +although arguably, even that's O(n) for a list
18:09:12 <oklopol> -i think you're missing the point here, this is more like a zero-knowledge proof
18:09:25 <oklopol> -where zero-knowledge means you only need to check a constant amount of things
18:09:32 <oklopol> -if i'm not missing the point, that is.
18:09:57 <oklopol> -read bsmntbombdood's explanation of why he's doing this
18:10:22 <ais523> +you can do merge-sort in a distributed way, I suppose,
18:12:05 <oklopol> -anyway i don't know anything about this kinda stuff, so can't really contribute at all, but there usually is a way to do pretty much anything like this
18:13:35 <ehird> -18:08 ais523: because that would require doing /something/ when you retrieved the list
18:13:39 <ehird> -as long as it's <O(n)
18:13:48 <oklopol> -and you can do pretty much any sort in a distributed way
18:14:12 <oklopol> -well okay actually quick and merge, can't see how to do others
18:15:08 <ais523> +stooge-sort would distribute well
18:15:11 <ais523> +but it's insanely slow
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18:15:47 <ais523> +and you could distribute treesort an entirely different way
18:16:38 <ais523> +oklopol: insert items in a binary tree, take them back out again in order
18:16:51 <ais523> +it's O(n log n) average case, but worse in worst-case
18:20:03 <ehird> -n log n average case is fine, tho
18:20:38 <ais523> +depends on the application
18:20:45 <ais523> +a bad worst case can be a security risk
18:20:52 <ais523> +that's why Perl randomizes its hashing algorithm nowadays, for instance
18:21:01 <ehird> -what's the worse-cas
18:22:16 <ehird> -09:52:02 <ais523> and void is the right data type, brkpos is literally 0 bytes long
18:22:16 <ehird> -09:52:39 <ais523> by the way comp.lang.c told me that I was talking nonsense
18:23:26 <ais523> +oh well, extern void works on gcc-bf
18:23:38 <ehird> -why is it nonsense?
18:23:38 <ais523> +which is the only compiler which it makes any sense to use to compile the gcc-bf internal libraries
18:23:52 <ais523> +I thought "extern void var;" was legal C
18:24:06 <oklopol> -what would you use that for?
18:24:11 <ais523> +oklopol: to get its address, of course!
18:24:26 <oklopol> -and what would that be useful for?
18:24:37 <oklopol> -it could be allocated anywhere.
18:24:44 <oklopol> -you'll just get a random number
18:24:45 <ais523> +"void var;" isn't legal C, though, so the variable would have to be given its address from elsewhere
18:24:55 <ais523> +and in gcc-bf, the address of __brkpos is very important
18:25:14 <ais523> +as __brkpos is the end of the static data and the start of the heap
18:25:28 <ais523> +but it's 0 bytes long, the boundary between static data and heap doesn't take up any bytes in itself
18:25:37 <oklopol> -and why isn't it a pointer?
18:26:05 <ais523> +but because it's handled by the linker
18:26:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:26:13 <ais523> +the linker handles the addresses of things, not their values
18:26:19 <oklopol> -anyway ehird clearly the worst case is O(n^2), consider an already sorted list for one
18:26:20 <ais523> +so it handles the address of __brkpos
18:26:27 <ais523> +not the value of a pointer
18:27:03 <ehird> -ais523: why not have (void *), pointing to the first element of the heap
18:27:54 <ehird> -http://nsl.com/k/t.k β Relational database.
18:28:36 <ais523> +ehird: the linker doesn't manipulate the values of things, only their addresses
18:36:07 <GregorR> +ehird: Fine, I unprotected Earth.
18:36:12 <GregorR> +ehird: Spam it up if you'd like :P
18:42:29 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:56:37 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:00:55 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving").
19:01:04 -!- neldoreth has joined.
19:06:28 <ehird> -Deewiant: yer graphics card done got obsoleted.
19:06:37 <AnMaster> +ais523, you remember I mentioned IftU takes place after UtBS? Well not only after but several _dwarf_ generations after even.
19:06:50 <AnMaster> +and I'm close to the end in it now. :)
19:07:12 <AnMaster> +(summary so far: great story, great battles, but need a bit more work with the graphics)
19:07:13 <Deewiant> +ehird: Well of course, it's like 6 months old :-P
19:07:35 <ehird> -Deewiant: Yeah, and I'm buying a card that's like a YEAR OLD.
19:08:58 <ehird> -wow, spcr are reviewing the new 4890
19:09:10 <ehird> -I'm kind of doubting they can get it quiet...
19:10:56 <ehird> -"During testing, temperatures stayed well within reasonable levels β at full load, the GPU core temperature measured only 75Β°C"
19:11:08 <ehird> -This just in: 75C is well within reasonable levels.
19:11:12 <ais523> +that's above hard drive death temperature
19:11:29 <Deewiant> +I prefer staying below 70 myself, though.
19:11:31 <ehird> -i want a GPU that melts if you push it too far
19:11:34 <ehird> -it'd be HARDCORE.
19:11:42 <Deewiant> +Disconnect the fans and you're done
19:11:53 <ehird> -Deewiant: what if I don't have any fans
19:11:56 <Deewiant> +Do it with your CPU too, for good measure
19:12:07 <ais523> +meh, a programming language where variables overheat if you use them too much is more fun
19:12:16 <ais523> +although in VHDL, that's generally handled by the compilers nowadays
19:12:24 <ehird> -and freeze if you don't use them enough
19:12:45 <ais523> +VHDL cares about the number of mentions in the program of the variable
19:12:47 <ehird> -"These recordings were made with a high resolution, lab quality, digital recording system inside SPCR's own 11 dBA ambient anechoic chamber"
19:13:00 <ehird> -Quite frankly, I doubt you need an anechoic chamber to distinguish this card's noise.
19:13:05 <ais523> +it's a weird language, it mostly doesn't have loops
19:13:29 <ais523> +11 dBA ambient is pretty high for an anechoic chamber!
19:13:54 <ehird> -ais523: they couldn't afford a full one
19:13:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:13:57 <ehird> -so they did the best they could
19:14:14 <ehird> -it's just a room in a house with the windows all bordered up and a bunch of specially designed foam on the walls
19:14:16 <AnMaster> +GPU is around 40-47 here (depending on load, but independent of room temperature), CPU is around 29-40 (depending on load and room temperature)
19:14:29 <AnMaster> +harddrives 20-31 depending on room temp
19:14:41 <AnMaster> +75 sounds way too much even for GPU to me
19:14:52 <ehird> -ais523: if they ever needed to buy a full one I imagine they could close down as silent perfection has been achieved ;-)
19:14:58 <ehird> -AnMaster: that's high-end gfx cardsfor you
19:15:32 <ais523> +ehird: but 11 dbA is pretty high, IIRC humans can talk more quietly than that if they try hard
19:15:44 <AnMaster> +ehird, well mine isn't too bad. I mean my old geforce 3 I could understand you would have said that about. But my current geforce 7600 is not that bad.
19:15:50 <ehird> -ais523: er, I doubt that
19:16:05 <ehird> -AnMaster: how much did it cost
19:16:27 <Deewiant> +How can I pull temperature readings out of Linux?
19:16:33 <ehird> -Deewiant: just touch your hw
19:16:45 <ais523> +according to Wikipedia, 10 dB audio volume = volume of human breathing normally
19:17:05 <Deewiant> +ehird: That's not out of Linux
19:17:08 <ehird> -dbA is dB + weighting
19:17:21 <ais523> +normally the last letter states what it's relative to
19:17:22 <AnMaster> +ehird, don't remember. It was about 1.5 years ago I bought it
19:17:30 <ehird> -ais523: A B or C ;-)
19:17:32 <ehird> -AnMaster: roughly?
19:17:33 <ais523> +so A would = relative to audio reference volume
19:17:42 <Deewiant> +http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighted
19:18:01 <AnMaster> +ehird, sorry, don't remember at all
19:18:21 <ehird> -AnMaster: if you don't gibber and get a feeling of faint regret at the cost it's probably not high-end :-P
19:20:17 <ehird> -mushkin ram is so expensive
19:20:32 <ais523> +ehird: according to the Wikipedia article Deewiant linked, A-weighting isn't meant to change the average value
19:20:50 <ais523> +it just changes it the measurement from measuring the physical reality to what humans hear
19:21:02 <Deewiant> +ehird: 146 β¬ for 4 times 2 gigabytes
19:21:06 <ais523> +so I conclude that approximately, 11 dBa ~= 11 dB ~= volume of a human breathing normally
19:21:29 <ehird> -Deewiant: And that's DDR3?
19:21:33 <AnMaster> +it isn't plug-and-play though because sensors are not
19:21:52 <Deewiant> +ehird: It's not Mushkin that's expensive, it's DDR3 that is. :-P
19:21:53 <ehird> -Also, I'm going for 12GB; the odder multiplications seem to cost more.
19:21:57 <ehird> -Deewiant: Well, duh.
19:22:10 <Deewiant> +ehird: Exactly, duh, so you were complaining about the wrong thing.
19:22:13 <ehird> -But DDR3-RAM-that-is-from-Mushkin is expensive :-P
19:22:25 <ehird> -"mushkin ram is so expensive": not actually false, just misleading.
19:22:45 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, so you will need to 1) ensure computer is not an old thinkpad where lm_sensors will refuse to run because it can brick the hardware 2) install lm_sensors and run sensors-detect
19:22:51 <AnMaster> +it will scan computer for sensors
19:23:00 <ehird> -an old thinkpad would probably not be running a radeon 4870
19:23:03 <AnMaster> +then use "sensors" (no quotes) to probe them
19:23:22 <ehird> -it wouldn't even fit!
19:23:26 <Deewiant> +ehird: You might as well say "stuff is so expensive" and then say that you're actually talking about specifically Mushkin DDR3 RAM
19:23:30 <ais523> +why would a temperature sensor brick hardware?
19:23:35 <ehird> -Deewiant: Stuff is so expensive
19:23:42 <ehird> -I'm talking specifically about cabbages
19:23:53 <AnMaster> +ais523, eeprom on same bus whuch doesn't conform to the spec of the bus
19:23:59 <ais523> +also, munchkin ram would be more fun
19:24:14 <ehird> -http://www.munchkin.com/
19:24:14 <ais523> +AnMaster: I2C using a non-allocated address?
19:24:17 <ehird> -YOUR BABY'S FIRST RAM
19:24:23 <AnMaster> +ais523, don't remember details
19:24:27 <ais523> +munchkin's a roleplaying term
19:24:33 <Deewiant> +AnMaster: I guess I should build hardware monitoring support into my kernel first :-P
19:24:42 <ehird> -ais523: baby ram is more fun
19:24:56 <ais523> +referring to someone who tries to play a story-telling game like a high-powered FPS player
19:25:02 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, as well as the i2c bus thingy
19:25:19 <fizzie> Also sensors-detect just detects the chips; some motherboard use same hw-monitoring chips but with resistors wired differently, so the temperature and/or voltage measurements will be bogus. Around here the lm-sensors example .conf file had a couple of variants available.
19:25:23 <ehird> -ais523: I shoot my BFG.
19:25:49 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, the right bus driver too? That bit you can check with lspci
19:26:14 <AnMaster> +right, then just enable all the sensors as modules
19:26:27 <ehird> -eurgh, setting up ext3 properly aligned on an ssd is apparently hard
19:26:29 <Deewiant> +sensors-detect is apparently stupid and says 'FATAL: Module i2c_i801 not found'
19:26:33 <Deewiant> +Even though it's built in to the kernel
19:26:47 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, never had issues with it being compiled in
19:27:03 <Deewiant> +Using driver `i2c-i801' for device 0000:00:1f.3: Intel ICH10
19:27:03 <Deewiant> +FATAL: Module i2c_i801 not found.
19:27:03 <Deewiant> +Failed to load module i2c-i801.
19:27:22 <AnMaster> +Deewiant, don't remember seeing "fatal" ever there
19:27:34 <fizzie> I did get >100 degree CPU temperatures on one box, I strongly suspect the sensors configuration was a bit mismatching. Although being able to boil water on the CPU would be nice. I wonder if people have built combined coffee-machine/computers like that.
19:27:54 <ais523> +fizzie: you've started channeling zzo38
19:27:57 <ais523> +in your sentence structure
19:28:09 <ehird> -not enough redundancy
19:28:21 <ais523> +it's not quite the same style, but it is in terms of sentence structure
19:28:25 <AnMaster> +fizzie, if your system has IMPI (spelling?) it tends to be a better way to read sensors
19:28:34 <ehird> -Some people like putting redundancy into their sentences like zzo38. But some others might not like putting redundancy in their sentences. You could set the redundancy option on or off if you want it or not.
19:28:47 <AnMaster> +fizzie, but I only ever seen that on servers.
19:28:49 <ehird> -β Uncanny valley of zzo38 sentence structure.
19:28:59 <fizzie> The current ones report plausible results, anyway; it was an old-oldy pentium-MMX box.
19:29:16 <ais523> +ehird: wow, that was scary
19:29:25 <ais523> +it's fine when zzo38 does it, but it's pretty weird seeing it from anyone else
19:30:00 <AnMaster> +ais523, I have seen other people do it before. Not in this channel though.
19:32:40 <Deewiant> +Welp, having booted into a new kernel sensors can now tell me my CPU temp (only)
19:32:55 <AnMaster> +ehird, Hm do you think the redundancy is there to handle package loss?
19:33:26 <ehird> -Deewiant: is it 7 billion C
19:33:56 <AnMaster> +ehird, if so I would recommend using a checksum instead.(e41403c80cb6fd88ddafb5abc78804a4208e088e6fe7b85c316c25721939edc7f9fea9ba613bc13c9f3dfb507e99f839350cf1ab0d5b0093098831215229b5a5)
19:34:11 <pikhq> +Such insanely hot systems...
19:34:13 <ais523> +AnMaster: all your IRC comments should have a checksum at the end
19:34:16 <pikhq> +Mine runs at around 40C.
19:34:20 <ais523> +but the checksum should be of the whole thing, including the checksum
19:34:29 <ehird> -ais523: fixed-point :-D
19:34:47 <ais523> +there was an IOCCC entry that modified files to have a checksum of the whole thing including the checksum
19:34:50 <ehird> -pikhq: I'm going to power my computer by putting a wormhole to the Sun in there.
19:35:07 <ehird> -pikhq: I'll cool it with a giant heatsink and a fan.
19:35:09 <ais523> +it created a random checksum first (CRC32), then modified the rest of the file to fit the checksum in question
19:35:12 <ais523> +by brute-forcing, IIRC
19:35:16 <AnMaster> +ais523, actually wouldn't be too hard if I used crc I guess
19:35:41 <AnMaster> +or md5 if I had a playstation cluster
19:35:45 <ais523> +CRC doesn't need brute-forcing though I don't think, I'm pretty certain it isn't cryptographically secure (nor is it meant to be)
19:36:13 <ehird> -AnMaster: playstation3s are just used because they have a powerful GPU, iirc
19:36:19 <ehird> -so just buy a bunch of 4890s
19:36:31 <ehird> -heck, there might be a 4890 X2 sometime
19:36:35 <ehird> -pick up a bunch of them
19:36:41 <pikhq> +ehird: Impressive. Probably also provide heating for your city, too.
19:36:50 <pikhq> +ehird: Powerful CPU as well.
19:37:00 <ehird> -pikhq: wow, that's one power-hungry city :P
19:37:08 <AnMaster> +ehird, I thought it was because of the cell processors rather
19:37:24 <ehird> -is the city surrounded by a forcefield?
19:38:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:38:32 <ais523> +I have a wormhole to the sun, but unfortunately it refuses to transfer any energy
19:38:34 <oerjan> +NO CLOG TODAY, OUR BOT HAS GONE AWAAAAY
19:38:38 <ais523> +it's more or less useless
19:38:45 <ais523> +all that I can send through there are worms...
19:38:47 <oerjan> +ais523: i think that may be ... fortunate
19:38:48 <ehird> -oerjan: ihope is keeping us along
19:38:53 <ehird> -ais523: instantrimshot
19:38:57 <pikhq> +Worms are matter, man!
19:38:58 <ais523> +and there are no worms in the sun, apart from ones I put there, so they never come back
19:39:03 <pikhq> +Just very small amounts.
19:39:10 <ais523> +pikhq: worms are an exception from the normal rules
19:39:23 <ehird> -ais523: you're a serial worm-murderer
19:39:31 <ehird> -or... are they sun-resistent worms?
19:39:34 <ehird> -that would be awesome
19:39:36 <ais523> +you have to kill 3 to be considered a serial killer IIRC
19:39:50 <pikhq> +"Worm heliodurans", anyone?
19:39:52 <ehird> -3? I would have expected more.
19:40:14 <oerjan> +well what _are_ you going to do if a sun-evolved plasma worm crawls out in the other direction?
19:40:34 <ais523> +oerjan: I haven't thought much about it
19:40:35 <ehird> -"A serial killer is a person who murders usually three or more people[note 1][1][2] over a period of more than 30 days with a "cooling off" period between each murder"
19:40:38 <ehird> -MURDERING IS HOT WORK!
19:42:09 <pikhq> +I suggest you get a magnetic containment facility.
19:42:18 <pikhq> +Such as, say, a fusion reactor.
19:42:28 <ehird> -ais523: I think the SCP foundation may want to look at your wormhole
19:42:32 <AnMaster> +<ehird> or... are they sun-resistent worms? <-- that must be some very protective sun cream
19:42:46 <pikhq> +Then, if a plasma worm comes out, you can power your reactor for free.
19:43:00 <pikhq> +Welcome to the future of power generation: just add worms.
19:43:18 <ehird> -AnMaster: SPF googol
19:43:52 <ehird> -I think googol would be very sufficient, AnMaster.
19:43:54 <ehird> -It's a big number.
19:44:21 <AnMaster> +as for murdering being hot work... get a better heatsink then
19:44:34 <ehird> -i want a GPU that murders people for power.
19:44:41 <AnMaster> +ehird, it isn't enough if it isn't off the scale ;P
19:45:20 <pikhq> +SPF G would work a bit better.
19:45:33 <oerjan> +NOBODY LIKES ME, EVERYBODY HATES ME, THINK I'LL GO EAT WORM PLASMAA
19:45:48 <AnMaster> +oerjan, why do you think nobody likes you?
19:46:12 <ehird> -WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
19:46:34 <AnMaster> +oerjan, I would appreciate it if you would continue.
19:46:46 <ehird> -pikhq: G=G1 or G64?
19:47:00 <oerjan> +ehird: sun storm i guess
19:47:21 <AnMaster> +oerjan, What makes you believe sun storm you guess?
19:47:24 <pikhq> +Either one, I guess. They're both absurdly large.
19:48:01 <AnMaster> +oerjan, Can you elaborate on that?
19:48:21 <oerjan> +SORRY FOR THE ERRONEOUD WHOOSH, EVERYONE
19:48:24 <AnMaster> +oerjan, Maybe your plans have something to do with this.
19:48:50 <AnMaster> +oerjan, sorry for feeding your input to M-x doctor and pasting the results back
19:49:18 <oerjan> +but not today, perhaps
19:50:04 <AnMaster> +oerjan, why so agitated? Maybe you need some more M-x doctor
19:50:34 <ehird> -"Why do you say what makes I believe what do you think?" -- The psychotherapist feedback loop
19:50:56 <AnMaster> +ehird, yeah such things happen, it is far from perfect
19:50:58 <oerjan> +ehird: i don't think it's entirely deterministic
19:51:09 <ehird> -"Maybe your life have something to do with this."
19:51:22 <AnMaster> +I have seen "I ask the questions here!" or something like that
19:51:32 <AnMaster> +when I tried to talk to it like it talked to me
19:51:39 <ehird> -I ran two doctors
19:51:43 <ehird> -and fed one's input into another
19:51:57 <AnMaster> +ehird, you need some input to start them off iirc?
19:51:59 <oerjan> +AnMaster: i thought that was more the mad scientist guy </mezzacotta>
19:52:41 <oerjan> +they're lazily evaluated doctors
19:53:04 <AnMaster> +oerjan, Do you know any taxidermist who specialises in mathematicians?
19:53:39 <ehird> -anyone know isps?
19:53:39 <oerjan> +that actually sounds like a plausible serial killer
19:53:53 <AnMaster> +oerjan, http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1748-04-04
19:53:54 <ais523> +AnMaster: mezzacotta reference?
19:53:57 <ehird> -oerjan: his house is designed to the golden ratio
19:54:36 <oerjan> +AnMaster: of course i know that, it was one of the first hall in fames
19:55:13 <ais523> +mezzacotta seems to have fake adverts nowadays
19:55:15 <AnMaster> +rather odd that it did result in so many jokes
19:55:25 <ehird> -ais523: it always has.
19:55:25 <oerjan> +ais523: it's had for a while
19:55:28 <AnMaster> +ais523, yes, since a month or two I think?
19:55:29 <ais523> +TETRISK seems like quite an interesting concept for a game...
19:55:49 <AnMaster> +ehird, http://www.mezzacotta.net/?p=188
19:55:53 <oerjan> +ehird: not quite the start
19:56:59 <oerjan> +i guess this proves that ads do cause users to leave in droves
19:59:05 <ais523> +even more strangely, I haven't looked at mezzacotta for months, but pretty much all the hall of fame list I'd seen before
19:59:50 <oerjan> +ah, new mezzacotta webcomic launched
20:00:06 <lifthrasiir> -AnMaster: FYI, PyFunge 0.5-rc1 is released today. :p
20:00:10 <oerjan> +ais523: that's what i was referring to, it stopped updating
20:01:13 <AnMaster> +<oerjan> ah, new mezzacotta webcomic launched <-- wut
20:01:15 <oerjan> +ais523: not enough voters to bring a new comic up to the minimum 50
20:01:32 <oerjan> +AnMaster: see the blog
20:02:06 <ais523> +"Ha, we are so awesome - we have pulled off the greatest April Foolβs Day stunt ever. We very quietly removed every mezzacotta comic and replaced the entire archive with completely new material! Yes, thatβs over 3,652,425,000,000,000 comics. Every single one of them removed and replaced with an entirely new, original, never-before-seen comic."
20:02:12 <ehird> -http://www.mezzacotta.net/?p=201
20:02:17 <ehird> -ais523: you beat me!
20:02:21 <AnMaster> +oerjan, about hall of fame stopped updating?
20:02:49 <oerjan> +AnMaster: no, about the new webcomic
20:03:11 <oerjan> +there was something about the hall of fame in the forum once
20:05:18 <ehird> -anyone know isps?
20:05:24 <ehird> -their workageosity
20:06:07 <ehird> -http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1233008904_17d9a1b.gif AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:07:58 <ehird> -FAIL. You said "FAIL."
20:08:16 <M0ny> -FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL.""
20:08:41 <lament> +FAIL. You said "You said."
20:08:57 <ehird> -FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "
20:09:21 <lament> +FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "
20:09:53 <ehird> -FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "Segmentation fault: stack overflow
20:09:58 <oerjan> +^ul ((FAIL. You said ")S:^):^
20:09:58 <fungot> -FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL. You said "FAIL ...too much output!
20:10:31 <ehird> -FAIL. You said "is this some sort of meme?"
20:10:33 <AnMaster> +that is the only explanation left.
20:10:41 <ais523> +AnMaster: things can memise very quickly, sometimes
20:11:09 <oerjan> +AnMaster: don't worry, 96.7% of memes die within a week
20:11:16 <AnMaster> +ais523, true, but this one doesn't make much sense.
20:11:19 -!- jix_ has quit ("...").
20:11:23 <ehird> -FAIL. You failed.
20:11:26 <lament> +quick, can somebody calculate this for me
20:11:31 -!- jix has joined.
20:12:02 <AnMaster> +oerjan, While some survive for years. Or kind of die but still live on. AYB for example.
20:12:18 <ehird> -AYB is not living.
20:12:35 <AnMaster> +ehird, yeah more like undead refusing to let go.
20:12:48 <oerjan> +<AYB> ALL YOUR BRAINS BELONG TO US...
20:12:50 <AnMaster> +I still hear references to all your base sometimes
20:13:54 <oerjan> +YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURV BRAINS...
20:14:04 <lament> +memememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememe
20:14:07 <ehird> -YOU HAVE TO CHANCE TO MEME
20:14:35 <oerjan> +ehird: i'm just trying to continue the zombie joke
20:14:58 <AnMaster> +zombie, that is one meme that hangs around forever too
20:17:40 <oerjan> +12:56 < ehird> GregorR: what about Cosmos
20:17:40 <oerjan> +12:56 < ehird> what does that say about carl sagan's ego
20:17:51 <oerjan> +One ego was not enough for sagan
20:18:03 <AnMaster> +ais523, I wonder if syntax highlighting WML would be hard...
20:18:10 <oerjan> +He had to have b*hit by falling anvil*
20:19:06 <AnMaster> +ehird, wesnoth scripting language.
20:19:38 <ehird> -https://gna.org/bugs/?13104
20:19:42 <ehird> -HOW STEREOTYPICAL
20:20:52 <bsmntbombdood> +well distributed merge sort can still be verified in overall O(n log n) time
20:20:57 <AnMaster> +ehird, they do use lua nowdays iirc
20:36:56 <ehird> -ais523: does trolltalk still exist?
20:37:35 <ehird> -thought you'd know
20:37:58 <ehird> -http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=20721
20:38:13 <ehird> -Wait, they're just all hidden
20:38:25 <ehird> -Just the crapflood.
20:38:43 <ehird> -I'm surprised the flooder isn't bored.
20:39:03 <ais523> +obvious trolls are generally moderated down to -1
20:39:21 <ehird> -Trolltalk was an SID-without-assigned-article.
20:39:34 <ehird> -It was, pretty much, the most trollish part of Slashdot.
20:39:42 <ehird> -Think it started in 2000 or so
20:39:53 <ehird> -Well, the assigned article is "http://goatse.cx/"
20:40:03 <ehird> -I wonder how it was created?
20:41:16 <ais523> +either by a troll exploiting a bug, or something deliberate by the editors, most likely
20:41:37 <ais523> +if commenting wasn't automatically closed down after a while, they must have deliberately changed the code
20:41:45 <ehird> -ais523: I highly doubt it was a deliberate editor thang; a bug would be possible, but I don't think the code would have functionality to point a discussion to a non-article page -- that seems superfluous.
20:41:52 <ehird> -Wait, didn't slashdot used to let you create your own SIDs?
20:41:57 <ehird> -I seem to remember it did.
20:44:04 <ehird> -Meanwhile, Leenus Torvaltyos.
20:49:58 <comex> +if anyone's interested in something i've been doing
20:50:19 <comex> +there is a certain decompression function where the output buffer is lower in memory than the input buffer, but they are both aligned
20:50:56 <comex> +however, due to a size mismatch you can overflow the output buffer
20:51:11 <comex> +but if you just use normal compressed data, the output will overwrite the input and it fucks up
20:51:22 <oerjan> +when you decompress, i would sincerely hope there's a size mismatch
20:54:05 <ais523> +comex: are you trying to find an input which decompresses properly with that function?
20:54:07 <comex> +the size allocated is a different field than the size used for decompression
20:54:28 <comex> +I did find one (although it's probably suboptimal)
20:55:15 <comex> +because of the alignment, if you have some compressed stuff that decompresses to multiple copies of itself, it will only ever overwrite input with the same thing
20:55:26 <comex> +and whose length is an even 16 or whatever
20:57:40 * ehird continues mulling.
21:01:22 <ehird> -ais523: how's gcc-bf?
21:01:41 <ais523> +ehird: it produces non-working programs
21:01:44 <ais523> +most of the main elements are there
21:01:49 <ehird> -when will it work
21:01:49 <ais523> +but what I have written needs a lot of bugfixing
21:01:55 <ais523> +and various things haven't
21:02:01 <ais523> +and maybe a few weeks after I start working on it again
21:02:04 <ais523> +which isn't right now
21:04:03 <GregorR> +Sh! You'll wake the Oomoo!
21:05:35 <ehird> -ais523: could you share the unfinished src? :)
21:05:51 <ais523> +ehird: I have done, I think
21:05:57 <ehird> -yes. On eso-std.org.
21:05:59 <ais523> +I'm working on something else right now, but I'll paste it for you later
21:06:08 <ehird> -paste? isn't it a tarball
21:09:13 <ehird> -11:11:03 <ais523> ah yes, mine are 32 bits
21:09:13 <ehird> -11:11:11 <ais523> actually they're 26 bits
21:09:14 <ehird> -11:11:16 <ais523> but padded to 32 for sanity reasons
21:10:56 <ais523> +segmented architecture
21:11:01 <ehird> -"Raise your hand if you have iTunes ...
21:11:01 <ehird> -Raise your hand if you have a FireWire port ...
21:11:02 <ehird> -Raise your hand if you have both ...
21:11:03 <ais523> +there are 4 segments, each of which has a 24-bit address
21:11:04 <ehird> -Raise your hand if you have $400 to spend on a cute Apple device ...
21:11:06 <ehird> -There is Apple's market. Pretty slim, eh? I don't see many sales in the future of iPod. "
21:12:40 <pikhq> +Slashdot is amazingly bad at predicting stuff. ;)
21:13:59 <GregorR> +Slashdot is amazingly bad.
21:14:10 <pikhq> +No, it's a great time sink.
21:14:13 <GregorR> +No, my three periods do not constitute an ellipses :P
21:15:00 <GregorR> +I always forget the pluralization of ellips{i,e}s.
21:17:08 <Deewiant> +http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/boston-college-prompt-commands-are-suspicious
21:17:45 * pikhq beats BC with a cluebat.
21:17:47 <GregorR> +Stay away from the CS department.
21:18:18 <ehird> -I HATE HUMANITY ;_;
21:18:51 <ais523> +oh dear, that's awful
21:19:31 <ehird> -ais523: you're gay.
21:19:34 * ehird 's computer is taken away
21:20:01 <ehird> -THE "TERMINAL.APP" PROGRAM, USED TO CONTROL THE INNER COMPUTER'S OPERATING SYSTEM PARAMETERS, WAS FOUND PLACED FOR EASY ACCESS ON HIS APPLICATION DOCK!
21:20:03 <ais523> +there are plenty of GUI "hacking" tools, and even more legitimate command-line programs
21:20:07 <GregorR> +<unrelated party> other unrelated party: You're gay.
21:20:13 <GregorR> +<ehird> ais523: I speak C.
21:20:18 <GregorR> +ehird's computer is taken away.
21:20:19 <ehird> -IT IS SUSPECTED HE USED THIS PROGRAM FOR HACKING INTO PEOPLE'S STEREOS
21:20:26 <ehird> -GregorR: wow, you're right
21:20:30 <ehird> -I just reread the first paragraph
21:22:00 <pikhq> +There's also plenty of "hacking" tools with perfectly legitimate uses...
21:22:54 <ais523> +last week I went into the computer lab
21:22:59 <ais523> +and found one of the lecturers hacking into the network
21:23:29 <ais523> +she said that she had a lab in there where she was going to teach students about it, and she wanted to check that wireshark was working properly
21:23:50 <ehird> -how can you hack with wireshark...
21:24:00 <ais523> +it's all about the packet sniffing
21:24:18 <ais523> +anyway, the network admins where we are consider unplugging a network cable to be hacking
21:24:43 <ehird> -y#tkkkt β what does this befunge98 code do?
21:24:45 <pikhq> +God, they'd hate the packet sniffing I've done for debugging my network configuration.
21:25:00 <ais523> +ehird: you wouldn't want to know
21:25:06 <ehird> -ais523: oh but I do
21:25:08 <ais523> +it basically generates a load of threads in a loop
21:25:08 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:25:12 <Deewiant> +ehird: Depends on the interpreter
21:25:13 <ais523> +it's sort-of a forkbomb
21:25:16 <ehird> -ais523: how boring
21:25:17 <pikhq> +(I discovered that the campus network has a seperate VLAN going over all the cables where the routing information is transmitted)
21:25:21 <ais523> +the exact details are based on the interpreter
21:25:27 <ais523> +because y is a get-system-information command
21:25:34 <Deewiant> +But of course it runs forever because it has no @ or q
21:25:34 <pikhq> +I could probably make a royal mess of their routing tables if I wanted to.
21:25:36 <ais523> +that fills the stack with interp-specific information
21:25:47 <ehird> -but what do # t and k do :-P
21:25:49 <ais523> +so yes, it runs forever with a large but finite number of threads
21:25:52 <ais523> +or possibly no threads
21:25:54 <Deewiant> +ais523: I was thinking more of the fact that kk is handled quite differently
21:26:11 <Deewiant> +ehird: # - jumps over next instruction, t - fork, k - iterate over next instruction
21:26:17 <ais523> +also, I think the third t is never used, is it/
21:26:21 <ais523> +nothing makes the IP go back to the rest
21:26:25 <ehird> -Deewiant: so 5kX does X 5 times?
21:26:39 <ehird> -what are the last 3 to 4 pushes of y?
21:26:53 <Deewiant> +The top one is a flags cell in the range 0-31
21:27:02 <ehird> -also, surely '#t' is = ''?
21:27:10 <ehird> -anyway, how does t fork?
21:27:14 <ehird> -what do they each do?
21:27:22 <ais523> +Deewiant: ah, I didn't realise
21:27:27 <ais523> +I thought it was just 1/0 on the stack
21:27:43 <ais523> +* IP number/0 on the stack
21:27:54 <ais523> +that's a very forkbomb, anyway
21:28:14 <Deewiant> +Any program containing a t and no @ or q is quite a forkbomb
21:28:18 <ehird> -we iterate <top> times, doing: iterate <top> times, iterating: <top> times, to fork, (loop in parent), child: which then iterates <top> times, iterates <top> times, iterates <top> times fork, etc etc etc
21:28:23 <Deewiant> +A one-liner is indeed a very forkbomb
21:29:55 <ehird> -I have no /dev/full
21:32:41 <ehird> -12:17:09 <AnMaster> ais523, also it was over a month since I responded to him and he didn't reply
21:32:41 <ehird> -12:17:15 <AnMaster> "what an arse" is my feeling
21:32:55 <ehird> -err... why is AnMaster calling C.L.C. an arse?
21:32:59 <ehird> -I can't even figure it out from context
21:33:08 <ehird> -CLC didn't respond to a question by AnMaster on a bug report CLC commented on
21:33:19 <ehird> -must be more than that; I doubt even AnMaster's stupid enough to call someone an arse over that
21:33:21 <ais523> +was it a bug report CLC was watching?
21:33:25 <ehird> -http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=18937
21:33:53 <ais523> +entirely possible that CLC just didn't see the reply
21:34:05 <ehird> -or wasn't looking
21:34:06 <ais523> +also, the download server did change, IIRC
21:34:13 <ais523> +so Claudio's concern was entirely valid
21:34:17 <ehird> -12:20:37 <AnMaster> ais523, also why didn't he bother to respond I tried to ask what he meant?
21:34:33 <ehird> -WHY AREN'T YOU DEDICATING YOUR LIFE TO CHECKING & RESPONDING TO THIS MINOR BUG REPORT FOR A PACKAGE FOR A MINOR LINUX DISTRO
21:38:24 <lifthrasiir> -http://www.glines.org/wiki/evfunge well, am i first to find this one?
21:38:40 <ehird> -12:45:26 <AnMaster> ais523, can you contact Claudio and explain why *direct link to tarball* is needed, since he now added an offending text at the top of http://intercal.freeshell.org/download/ about that
21:38:55 <ehird> -the text is offensive in and of itself; not its interpretation.
21:39:09 -!- Hiato has joined.
21:39:38 <ais523> +anyway, let's wait for AnMaster to come back and talk
21:39:50 <ais523> +the problem seems to be that CLC-INTERCAL is doing something unexpected
21:39:57 <ais523> +which, as an INTERCAL interp, is nothing new
21:40:02 <ehird> -ais523: but this is the only time I can insult him without dedicating an hour or two of my day arguing with him
21:40:09 <ehird> -also, this was in oct 2008 :P
21:40:11 <ais523> +AnMaster tries to find a workaround, CLC explains that the workaround doesn't work
21:40:25 <ais523> +AnMaster explains it's the only workaround possible
21:41:28 <ehird> -12:54:36 <Deewiant> ais523: make an ar which contains ars which are named according to directory
21:41:28 <ehird> -12:54:44 <Deewiant> so foo/bar/baz becomes foo.a -> bar.a -> baz.a -> files
21:41:31 <ehird> -I wholeheartedly support.
21:42:02 <Deewiant> +Hmm, you're reading somewhat old logs?
21:42:15 <ehird> -That is a thing I do often.
21:42:28 <ehird> -They're quite thoroughly amusing, you know.
21:44:31 * ehird tries a delightfully obscure DVCS
21:46:51 <lifthrasiir> -Deewiant, have you heard of evfunge (URL pasted above)? i wonder that it was seen in this channel.
21:47:28 <ehird> -Evfunge is a combination of an evolutionary algorithm, a board-game engine, and a sandboxed Befunge execution environment
21:47:35 <ehird> -Already like it I do.
21:47:35 <Deewiant> +I seem to recall the phrase "Fix it to run 4-dimensional Funge code, not 2-dimensional "
21:47:45 <Deewiant> +lifthrasiir: He contributes to Language::Befunge
21:47:57 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:48:10 <Deewiant> +I've been on the mailing list for it since January 2008 and I've seen more patches from him than Jerome :-P
21:48:34 <Deewiant> +Jerome doesn't put patches on the list, of course >_<
21:49:49 <lifthrasiir> -i searched for certain commands which follows after <> ^v hl (i.e. flow-changing commands for 4th dimension) and found it
21:50:15 <lifthrasiir> -too bad that there is no source code... that's interesting concept itself :p
21:51:18 <lifthrasiir> -for flow-changing commands, of course i know i can change delta directly but if anyone implemented such fingerprint at first it could be convenient.
21:51:34 <Deewiant> +Thinking of supporting arbitrary dimensions?
21:52:19 <lifthrasiir> -and what delimiter should be used for separating 4th dimension and more, like newline and formfeed ;)
21:53:38 <ehird> -\^L^N=switch_dimension(N,+1)
21:55:16 <lifthrasiir> -ehird: then it won't be compliant to spec.
21:55:37 <lifthrasiir> -anyway formfeed should not be used for that
21:56:03 <ehird> -^L is used for 3d, lifthrasiir
21:56:29 <lifthrasiir> -i mean that 4th dimension needs another delimiter and not ^L
21:56:51 <Deewiant> +ehird: What if you want to have a blank plane
21:57:20 <Deewiant> +You could do ^L ^L, of course, but it does contradict the original spec to treat ^L^L differently
21:58:14 <lifthrasiir> -using shift-in and shift-out for rotating Funge space (while writing to it)?
21:59:27 <oklopol> -so i decide to get my external hd so i can backup my laptop's stuff
21:59:32 <fizzie> ASCII has control code ^Y for "end of medium"; that's such an awesome name that it should have an associated strange-topology Fungoid meaning.
21:59:43 <oklopol> -and just as i'm about to do that it crashes and won't start anymore.
22:00:02 <ehird> -end of ... PSYCHIC MEDIUM
22:00:08 <ehird> -oklopol? Backing up?
22:00:39 <oklopol> -i only decided to back it up because the hd already broke once, but started working again..
22:00:48 <lifthrasiir> -fizzie: that should be used for multiverse funges.
22:02:59 <ais523> +(Logged in as NotLoggedIn)
22:03:26 <ehird> -that sw looks like...
22:03:29 <ehird> -that perl wiki software
22:03:41 <ais523> +obviously, it says in the title bar
22:04:09 <ais523> +also, evolutionarily creating Befunge programs is pretty amazing
22:04:15 <ais523> +I'd like to see the source of the resulting programs
22:04:29 <ehird> -since you have constraints
22:04:32 <ehird> -93 + limit on ticks
22:04:34 <ehird> -would be the easiest
22:04:37 <oklopol> -i was almost expecting for more comments, i mean that was kind of a weird coincidence imo :P
22:04:47 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined.
22:04:49 <ais523> +beh, I can't even see who wrote that
22:04:54 <ais523> +because the recent changes is time-limited
22:04:57 <Sgeo[College]> -ais523: what does "Setting .5 to #2/#3 instead of #1/#2" mean?
22:05:01 <ehird> -ais523: most old ones are
22:05:07 <ehird> -it's a wiki for one person
22:05:12 <ehird> -so I'm gonna go out and guess HIM
22:06:20 <ais523> +Sgeo[College]: I've had to explain this several times; check logs, or just read through and try to understand some old INTERCAL-72 programs that do flow control
22:07:11 <ais523> +sorry, I'm rather tired atm...
22:07:20 <ehird> -14:07:03 <ais523> basically, the IACC compiler is written in IACC and compiles IACC to ICBM.
22:07:20 <ehird> -14:07:17 <ais523> The other compilers compile CLC-INTERCAL, and other related languages, to ICBM, and are written in IACC.
22:07:41 <ais523> +it's not all that complicated once you get used to it
22:07:52 <ais523> +and the ICBM interpreter is written in Perl
22:07:58 <ais523> +because the whole thing has to run somehow
22:08:06 <lifthrasiir> -04:32:04 < ais523> The issue is that in INTERCAL-72, branching is accomplished by RETURNing a non-constant amount; #1/#2 means you save one NEXT slot, but #2/#3 is easier to calculate
22:08:08 <Sgeo[College]> -Maybe I should try learning INTERCAL before trying to understand
22:08:33 <ais523> +it's a pretty obvious problem if you've ever tried to do any sort of branch in INTERCAL-72
22:08:38 <ais523> +personally, I think #1/#2 ftw
22:08:48 <ais523> +it's not like you can't do the necessary transformation with two operators
22:09:02 <ais523> +which is likely much smaller than the rest of your expression
22:09:17 <ais523> +and #2/#3 requires one of them anyway
22:09:34 <ais523> +as an added advantage, you can do #1/#2 in the same number of operators as #2/#1, so it's easy to reverse your test
22:10:02 <ais523> +/ means "or" in this context
22:10:13 -!- jix has quit ("...").
22:10:26 <ais523> +as in, do you use #1 and #2 as your TRUE and FALSE in booleans, or do you use #2 and #3?
22:10:58 <ais523> +also, http://envbot.kuonet.org/~ais523/c-intercal/_darcs/pristine/doc/ick.txt is a good resource to learn INTERCAL from
22:11:03 <ais523> +as is the original manual
22:11:10 <ais523> +which has more code examples but less reference material
22:11:15 <Sgeo[College]> -Is http://divingintointercal.blogspot.com/2007/03/good-programmer-constantly-strives-to.html any good?
22:11:21 <ais523> +yes, but it doesn't get very far
22:11:29 <ais523> +the author gave up pretty early on
22:11:42 <ais523> +so you'll get a good introduction to about 2 features
22:12:27 <ais523> +not really, I don't think there's any serious misinformation there
22:12:35 <ais523> +the programs might be slightly inefficient and look outdated
22:12:55 <ais523> +"As a programming language, INTERCAL remains every bit as useful as it was over thirty years ago."
22:13:25 <ais523> +the author of that thing also didn't find any interps newer than 0.24
22:13:29 <Sgeo[College]> -Hm, what happens if you have a 3 line INTERCAL program? Is it unwritable due to politeness/rudeness issues?
22:13:42 <ais523> +Sgeo[College]: 2 lines or shorter is immune to politeness issues
22:13:56 <ais523> +with 3 lines, 1/3 is considered a suitably good approximation to 1/4 to be allowed
22:14:02 <ais523> +although 2/3 and 0 aren't
22:14:18 <ais523> +you don't have to get it exactly right, just "about 1/4"
22:14:44 <ais523> +1/3 and 1/5 are both allowed, IIRC
22:16:15 <ais523> +there's a loop in part 3 which uses #1 and #2 as booleans
22:16:21 <ais523> +but just requires the user to enter them by hand
22:16:32 <ais523> +he gave up trying to actually do calculations to lead to those values
22:17:20 <ais523> +also, using .1 as the branch variable is incredibly unidiomatic
22:17:35 <ais523> +.5 is much more common
22:17:58 <ais523> +and there's a well known undocumented feature of the standard library which gives you a line saying PLEASE RESUME .5 you can NEXT to
22:18:16 <ais523> +so well-known, in fact, that I had to implement it in my alternative standard library so as not to break lots of existing programs
22:19:22 <Sgeo[College]> -Is the "random compiler bug" a bug or a feature or is the tutorial wrong?
22:19:31 <ais523> +and probably a feature
22:19:47 <GregorR> +The only difference between a bug and a feature is documentation :P
22:19:53 <ais523> +GregorR: it's documented!
22:20:00 <ais523> +the compiler sometimes fails on valid programs
22:20:07 <ais523> +for C-INTERCAL, it's a 10% chance
22:20:17 <ais523> +there's a command-line option to turn the random bug off, if you don't feel like chancing it
22:20:29 <ais523> +(also, the compiler appears to work, but random-bug causes the resulting program to be invalid)
22:20:44 <ais523> +*resulting executable to be incorrect
22:20:46 <GregorR> +I wish I could identify the accent of the seagoat in Charlie the Unicorn 3 :P
22:22:13 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:22:27 <Sgeo[College]> -"The bad news is that the previous sentence is the only good news."
22:24:25 <ais523> +what was the previous sentence?
22:24:53 <GregorR> +The good news is that the next sentence is the only bad news. The bad news is that the previous sentence is the only good news.
22:24:53 <Sgeo[College]> -"The good news is that the input tape and output tape (and their corresponding heads) are independent, which is much simpler than if they were connected."
22:26:07 <ais523> +in that case, there's more good news
22:26:20 <ais523> +the other good news is that that isn't /CLC-INTERCAL/'s I/O system
22:26:26 <ais523> +which is different, and much worse
22:26:53 <Sgeo[College]> -ais523: do comments count towards politeness/rudeness?
22:27:02 <ais523> +Sgeo[College]: yes, comments are just another sort of command
22:27:08 <ais523> +but is marked not to run by default
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22:39:03 <ehird> -http://cdn.fastclick.net/fastclick.net/cid172172/media323648.gif
22:39:14 <ehird> -links to http://www.marylifeblog.com/index.php?sub=vccpafdd XD
22:39:22 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
22:42:42 <ehird> -"How can you go wrong with a company that is publicly traded on the stock market."
22:44:30 <oerjan> +you cannot, as long as the company is well-typed
22:47:27 <ehird> -that guy who wrote that intercal tutorial
22:47:32 <ehird> -made his own emacs clone
22:50:23 <ehird> -Many commands require you to supply 40-character sha1 values as arguments, which identify revisions. These βrevision IDsβ are tedious to type, so monotone permits you to supply βrevision selectorsβ rather than complete revision IDs. Selectors are a more βhuman friendlyβ way of specifying revisions by combining certificate values into unique identifiers. This βselectorβ mechanism can be used anywhere a revision ID would normally be used. F
22:50:25 <ehird> -or details on selector syntax, see Selectors.
22:50:43 <ais523> +is that from his emacs clone?
22:50:51 <ais523> +oh, no, from the version control system
22:51:11 <ehird> -http://www.monotone.ca/docs/Creating-a-Database.html#Creating-a-Database
22:51:17 <ehird> -It's *just like arch*
22:51:58 <ais523> +maybe this is why CVS was considered a good VCS when it first came out
22:52:03 <ehird> -For branch names, select any name you like but prefix it with the βinverted domain nameβ of a DNS domain you control or are otherwise authorized to use. This behavior mimics the package naming convention in the java programming language. For example, monotone itself is developed within the net.venge.monotone branch, because the author owns the DNS domain venge.net.
22:52:25 <ais523> +lots of projects use inverted domain name trees
22:52:39 <ais523> +Java, openoffice, odf, Gnome config
22:53:14 <Deewiant> +Of which the first three are from Sun Microsystems :-P
22:53:16 <ais523> +one of the core root things of the internet too, but I can't remember if it's dns or whois or something else
22:53:27 <ais523> +Deewiant: lots of people were involved with odf, but point taken
22:53:33 <ais523> +that might have been one of Sun's bits
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23:04:07 <ehird> -and I was just about to ask him
23:05:37 <ehird> -15:11:03 <tusho> what is this operator
23:05:38 <ehird> -15:11:09 <tusho> (x<<1)~x
23:05:39 <ehird> -15:11:29 <tusho> 1010 = 1011
23:05:40 <ehird> -15:11:30 <ais523> tusho: for each 1, it looks to see if there's a 1 to its left
23:05:44 <ehird> -I love how easy it is to invent operations
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00:33:51 <oklopol> hello fizzie do you like lemons
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06:34:22 <fizzie> oklopol: When life gives you lemons, make a lemur.
06:36:52 <Sgeo_> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?896
06:37:00 <Slereah> When life gives you lemon, make lemonade.
06:37:07 <Slereah> Assuming you also got water and a glass
06:37:34 <Sgeo_> "I'm allergic to citrus". "When life gives you lemons, swell up and die."
06:37:41 <pikhq> When life gives you lemons, distill the citric acid out of it.
06:38:03 <Slereah> When god gives you lemon, you FIND A NEW GOD
06:38:24 <Slereah> γγγοΌΏοΌΏοΌΏ_β§β§γγοΌοΏ£οΏ£οΏ£οΏ£οΏ£οΏ£οΏ£οΏ£
06:38:25 <Slereah> γο½'γοΌΏοΌΏ__(,,οΎΠοΎ)οΌ SWELL UP AND DIE!
06:38:25 <Slereah> γγ οΌ΅U γ γοΌ΅ UγγγοΌΌοΌΏοΌΏοΌΏοΌΏοΌΏοΌΏοΌΏοΌΏ
06:39:11 <Sgeo_> I can't see the unicode
06:39:32 * pikhq kicks rxvt-unicode
06:39:38 <pikhq> I can't see the Unicode, either.
06:39:50 <pikhq> In a terminal which advertises Unicode support as one of its main features!
06:40:40 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers8/gikogiko.jpg
06:41:23 <pikhq> More frustrating when you can rather readily write things that need Unicode.
06:43:27 <Slereah> γγγγγ β§ β§γ.οΌΏοΌΏ__ οΌΏ γγγγγγγγγγ
06:43:27 <Slereah> γ γ γγ (*οΎγΌοΎ) |γγ|@j|γδΊl γγγγγγγγγ
06:43:27 <Slereah> γγγγγοΎ γ€,-ο½°|γγ|llοΎ|δΊl' γγγγγγγγγγ
06:43:27 <Slereah> γγγο½οΌοΌΏ|οΏ£οΏ£οΏ£|οΏ£οΏ£οΏ£οΏ£|
06:43:27 <Slereah> γ γγ.ββ³|οΌΏοΌΏοΌΏ|οΌΏοΌΏοΌΏοΌΏ| γ
06:43:35 <Slereah> Ahah! I'm using the internet
06:46:02 <Slereah> Needs more COOL FREE RINGTONES.
06:48:22 <Slereah> γοΌΏ|οΏ£οΏ£οΏ£οΏ£| |οΌΏοΌΏ
06:48:22 <Slereah> οΌγ|οΌΏοΌΏοΌΏοΌΏ|οΌγοΌ
06:48:22 <Slereah> οΏ£οΏ£γ|γγ|γοΏ£οΏ£
06:51:05 <Gracenotes> ΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺΩͺvΩͺ
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09:56:05 <Slereah> Believe in me, who believes in you.
09:57:27 <oerjan> Don't believe in Slereah, he doesn't really exist!
09:58:08 <oklopol> no no i believe in a higher power. i decided this 5 minutes ago.
09:58:37 <oklopol> tomorrow i shall believe in a lower power.
09:58:58 <oerjan> Slereah: i'm not interested in your vietnamese currency
09:59:28 <oklopol> IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE VIETNAMESE PEOPLE ARE RETARDS
10:00:03 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers3/Vietnam_dong_1976.jpg
10:00:33 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_%C4%91%E1%BB%93ng
10:00:46 <Slereah> I actually have some of that.
10:02:21 <oklopol> Slereah: you have to be more specific, which comments are about money and which are about penises
10:02:42 <Slereah> Well, can you guess what would fit in my room
10:02:55 <Slereah> 5000 dongs worth of Vietnamese currency
10:03:09 <oerjan> probably both, technically
10:03:26 <Slereah> Well, 5000 penises would take up significant space, though
10:03:40 <Slereah> If I had 5000 dongs, I'd probably store them in the attic
10:03:41 <oklopol> living in a room containing 5000 rotting human penises would probably be an interesting experience if you're gay
10:04:15 <oerjan> well you might invest in a freezer
10:04:32 <Slereah> Why, I'm not going to eat them.
10:06:17 <oerjan> suddenly the ethical considerations start looming large
10:06:17 <oklopol> you could call them cocksicles and sell them at the market
10:07:06 <oklopol> "hihi what a funny novelty popsicle, these will be great for Margette's bachelorette party!"
10:07:29 <oklopol> i'm not sure that's a better name
10:07:54 <oklopol> point is that would be good reality tv
10:08:15 <oerjan> oklopol: the name suitable enhances the stereotype
10:08:47 <Slereah> Margarette is the real name of Maggie.
10:08:59 <Slereah> A baby, sucking on rotting severed penises
10:08:59 <oerjan> of the kind of people who would say "hihi what a funny novelty popsicle, these will be great for Margette's bachelorette party!"
10:09:29 <oklopol> oerjan: most probably true.
10:09:38 <oklopol> i did have a reason to choose it
10:10:22 <oklopol> and it was exactly the fact that it suitable enhanced the stereotype of the kind of people who say the kind of thing the character said even though aforementioned dude (who was a chick) wasn't margarette but her friend.
10:11:17 <oklopol> i should probably go now, my new religion is making me a bit pseudosemantic.
10:11:56 <oerjan> maybe your religion needs a bit more gloom
10:12:22 <oklopol> current one is probably like christianity because i caught it in the shower
10:12:27 <oklopol> and neighbors are probably
10:13:14 <oerjan> Sgeo_: because you haven't fallen yet
10:14:08 <oklopol> can christianity be passed on through water?
10:14:29 <oerjan> oklopol: hm that _would_ explain that baptism thing wouldn't it?
10:15:30 <oklopol> well. need to go to the shoppe, to buy religious things, then university stuff.
10:18:06 <oerjan> from wikipedia's On this day i deduce that Kim Il-Sung was born the same day Titanic sank
10:18:31 <oerjan> i would guess the north koreans largely don't advertise that
10:19:18 <oerjan> but Titanic was obviously one of the great failures of capitalism, they have to know about it
10:19:36 <oklopol> oerjan: then why wouldn't they advertise it?
10:19:47 <oerjan> they might not mention the date
10:20:16 <oklopol> but it's like their great and massive leader killed the capitalisms and you know.
10:20:50 <oklopol> AN COOL WORLD TO BE BORNING UPON AND UNTO :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
10:21:14 <oklopol> excuse me. i suck at leaving.
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15:19:20 <oklopol> someone explain what sense victim caches make to me
15:19:30 <oklopol> lol i figured them out midsentence
15:28:28 <ehird> 05:39 pikhq: In a terminal which advertises Unicode support as one of its main features!
15:28:32 <ehird> i think it's shiftjis
15:28:56 <ehird> now someone fix x11
15:39:15 <ehird> 11:21:44 <AnMaster> tusho, php then header().
15:39:15 <ehird> 11:21:49 <tusho> AnMaster: HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
15:39:16 <ehird> 11:21:56 * tusho kicks AnMaster
15:48:00 <ehird> 11:49:27 <oerjan> optbot: your wisdom is beyond compare
15:48:00 <ehird> 11:49:28 <optbot> oerjan: you could not infect OpenBSD boxes with it, though
15:48:08 <ehird> 11:49:49 <oerjan> optbot: you only run on Linux then?
15:48:08 <ehird> 11:49:50 <optbot> oerjan: also the world's best imperative language.
15:49:38 <ehird> 11:55:29 <ais523> fungot: YOU ARE A RUBBISH BOT! HAH! EAT FLAMES,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,eheheheh...
15:49:38 <ehird> 11:55:30 <fungot> ais523: has scheme only 26 levels of recursion
15:52:51 <FireFly> ..what language is optbot coded in?
15:53:06 <ehird> it just picks random lines from the logs
15:53:12 <ehird> or changes the topic to them
15:54:01 <FireFly> It'd be interesting if fungot bashed ruby instead of haskell, bot wars
15:54:23 <ehird> web.archive.org is doooooooooown
15:56:47 -!- fungot has joined.
15:56:52 <ehird> ooh, I'm up to the part where AnMaster acts as if I'm immoral for not telling everyone what tentaclerapture.com was about on the front page
15:57:00 <ehird> gets me every time
15:57:19 <fizzie> Since fungot's language model is for the most parts #scheme logs, it tends to be a bit biased to talk about that particular language.
15:57:19 <fungot> fizzie: that's tragic. typical. those pigs... cardelli, et al's theory of objects. do you have
16:01:42 <ehird> 18:05:17 * Sgeo won in a shoppa match (in Worms)
16:01:47 <ehird> Fun fact: People who call it 'shoppa' suck balls.
16:06:31 <ehird> 06:58:44 <tusho> optbot: we're gonna have to put you in rehab
16:06:31 <ehird> 06:58:45 <optbot> tusho: to allow pushing several in one row
16:06:32 <ehird> 06:58:51 <AnMaster> well
16:06:33 <FireFly> Well, he has a point, it IS typical
16:06:34 <ehird> 06:58:56 <tusho> optbot: no, you can't take drugs any more sorry
16:06:36 <ehird> 06:58:56 <optbot> tusho: what is your complaint
16:06:38 <ehird> 06:59:07 <tusho> optbot: drugs are bad for computer programs mmkay
16:06:40 <ehird> 06:59:07 <optbot> tusho: I dunno. :|
16:07:19 <ehird> 07:08:12 <optbot> KingOfKarlsruhe: There's a family name in my family that hasn't been used for, oh, ten generations or so.
16:07:19 <ehird> 07:09:14 <AnMaster> optbot, what name is that?
16:07:21 <ehird> 07:09:14 <optbot> AnMaster: what's wrong with this one?, (define (fib n) (+ (fib (- n 1) (- n 2))))
16:07:35 <ehird> Calling people (define (fib n) (+ (fib (- n 1) (- n 2)))) got a bit unwieldy, I guess.
16:07:36 <fungot> FireFly: nope, i'm trying my best. could you briefly explain how that is
16:07:43 <ehird> FireFly: that was optbot
16:08:07 <FireFly> But I wanted some fungot sentence
16:08:07 <fungot> FireFly: spiders are cool.
16:08:43 <ehird> 08:17:54 <tusho> -rw-r----- 1 root adm 1.5G Sep 24 15:16 /var/log/apache2/access.log
16:14:21 <ehird> 13:21:20 <ais523> AnMaster: not exactly, tusho only likes Mac fonts
16:14:29 <ehird> Here we see an excellent misunderstanding of cause vs effect
16:30:20 <ehird> http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2008/05/13/introducing-qgtkstyle/ AWESOME.
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17:05:27 <AnMaster> ais523, hi I forgot again how one inputs a non-printable char in emacs... I need to put a literal null byte in a text file to test something.
17:06:01 <ais523> control-q, then either type the literal character, or type its character code and press return
17:06:07 <ais523> the character code's input in octal by default, IIRC
17:06:10 <ais523> but many people change that
17:06:25 <ais523> so C-q 0 RET is how you type a literal NUL
17:08:22 <AnMaster> ais523, but when I tried 12... well I'm not sure what happened, hard to describe
17:09:14 <ais523> ehird: back when Emacs became popular, octal was the usual method of abbreviating binary
17:09:19 <AnMaster> it inserted two newlines instead of one hm. But only in that specific buffer
17:09:40 <ais523> as it worked on the seven-segment displays that were popular in early computers
17:09:56 <ais523> although they'd moved onto proper screens by then, octal still hadn't given way to hex
17:10:02 <AnMaster> ais523, is it possible that mule-utf8 mode thingy mess this up?
17:10:20 <AnMaster> also I have no idea why emacs decided to enable that for this file
17:10:21 <ais523> AnMaster: it shouldn't, I don't think
17:10:22 * ehird looks into writing a haskell extension to ghc that automatically reloads modules
17:10:36 <ehird> i'm tired of C-c C-l and remaking my definitions!
17:12:05 <AnMaster> ais523, why does C-q mode display a space between every digit in the minibuffer?
17:12:20 <ais523> it's the standard multicharacter echo
17:12:31 <ais523> C-q 1 2 RET is effectively a multicharacter command
17:12:42 <ais523> and it writes each character in the command separately when echoing
17:13:11 <AnMaster> ais523, some stuff in the minibuffer doesn't do such spaces though. C-s for example.
17:13:21 <ehird> that's because it's not a command
17:13:21 <ais523> C-s is a minor mode, not a multicharacter command
17:13:28 <ehird> it's a command that opens a minibuffer input thing
17:13:36 <ehird> (do you know anything about emacs?!)
17:13:41 <ehird> (I don't even USE it!)
17:13:43 <ais523> likewise, C-x C-f is a multicharacter command, but the file input afterwards is a prompt
17:13:57 <ais523> so you don't get spaces inside the filename
17:14:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well I haven't studied much about its internals
17:14:14 <ehird> that's not internals...
17:14:30 <ais523> well, it is internals but you can deduce it all just from thinking while using Emacs
17:14:36 <AnMaster> my main interest was just using it. I haven't really cared how it works as long as it worked as I wanted it.
17:15:00 <ehird> it's basic elements of the UI
17:15:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and I haven't really cared about how it worked, I have been able to use it just fine without knowing that.
17:15:39 <ehird> how can you use a UI without knowing how the UI works
17:15:43 <ehird> that's a contradiction in terms
17:16:00 <ais523> ehird: contradiction or not, I've certainly seen lots of people /do/ it...
17:16:08 <ehird> yes, they're called secretaries, ais523
17:16:31 <ais523> actually, secretaries nowadays are normally pretty good with the computer tasks they need to do
17:16:36 <ais523> although often it's cargo-cult style
17:16:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to be saying that you need to know that C-s is a minor mode to be able to use C-s? Why?
17:16:50 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing related to minor mode
17:17:03 <ehird> it's related to having an input field in the minibuffer vs it echoing a command as you type it
17:17:06 <ais523> it's obvious that it's a minor mode, though, because Isearch comes up on the modeline
17:17:28 <ais523> likewise, M-x C-x o works rather differently from C-q C-x o
17:17:41 <ais523> the reasons why should be obvious, especially if you know the difference between M-x and C-q
17:18:07 <AnMaster> ais523, hm that thing on modeline, haven't noticed one of those showed up for Isearch, now that you mention it though
17:19:37 <AnMaster> ais523, M-x is just execute-command iirc?
17:19:51 <AnMaster> hm correction: C-h k M-x claims it is execute-extended-command.
17:20:02 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, M-x lets you execute arbitrary commands
17:20:06 <ais523> by typing in their extended name
17:20:17 <ais523> you can do M-x forward-char if you really want to
17:20:26 <ais523> pretty much the only thing that doesn't sanely work is M-x self-insert-command
17:20:29 <ais523> as it doesn't know which character to insert
17:20:47 <ehird> ais523: it enters ^M
17:20:52 <ais523> (self-insert-command's the default binding for all the alphabetic, numeric and punctuation keys)
17:20:52 <ehird> and says you can run it with SPC
17:21:10 <ais523> that behaviour's plausible, knowing Emacs' internals
17:21:50 <AnMaster> C-q runs the command quoted-insert
17:21:51 <AnMaster> which is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `simple.el'.
17:22:05 <ais523> not really, that means it isn't bound to anything else
17:23:41 <AnMaster> ais523, ok that makes sense. I can't think of a case where you would want to bind to several key combinations, though. (but I don't see any reason to forbid doing so either)
17:23:56 <ais523> well, you want self-insert-command bound to most of the keys on your keyboard
17:24:17 <ais523> and due to the existence of modes, it happens quite a bit
17:24:36 <ais523> for instance, moving a rectangular block of code can be done with C-x r k, C-x r y
17:24:40 <AnMaster> well that's true. And it is a rather interesting way to handle normal input :)
17:24:53 <ais523> a hypothetical befunge-mode would probably introduce abbreviations for those
17:25:05 <ais523> but it would be insane if it removed the original bindings
17:29:44 * ehird digs up a K interp
17:31:05 <ais523> ah, NASA came up with an interesting solution to the whole Colbert thing
17:31:39 <ais523> instead of naming the new module after him, they went and called their newest treadmill the Combined Operational Load Bearing External Resistance Treadmill
17:32:03 <ais523> and one of those is shipping up to the ISS
17:33:10 <ais523> AnMaster: how do you know they don't have it/
17:33:22 <ehird> humans need computers to do that sort of stuff for them
17:33:41 <ehird> "β’ Learn the kdb+ programming language q from the tutorials at code.kx.com. Buy the Q for Mortals book on Amazon. "
17:33:45 <ehird> what if I plan on being immortal?
17:33:46 <AnMaster> ais523, considering of often we misremember stuff that happened several years ago.
17:33:54 <ehird> http://kx.com/images/0903-DownloadKX.png
17:34:00 <ehird> a 32 bit trial version. yaaaaaaaay .
17:34:03 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not errors
17:34:09 <ehird> that's just shifting unused memory out
17:34:17 <ehird> it's fuzzy garbage collection
17:34:57 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't that be "forget" rather than "misremember"? Or do you mean the GC corrupts the data?
17:35:11 <ehird> We don't remember so we make shit up
17:37:14 <AnMaster> hm that isn't always the case though, sometimes you distinctly remember that [some event] happened in [some year], but checking with letters or whatever shows it happened a year or two [before/after]
17:46:39 <ehird> k){if[$[1>@d:!f:-1!x;1;`.d~*d];:.[$[qt d;*|`\:f;`.];();:;d:. f]];p:(d=`par.txt)|d like"[0-9]*";
17:46:41 <ehird> ."\\cd ",$x;f .q.set'{$[0>@!x:-1!x;. x;x`]}'f:d@&~(d=`html)|p|s:"."in'$d;if[|/p;L d@&p];if[~`.=x;(."\\l ",$:)'d@&s&~p];}
17:47:46 <ais523> at first I thought that was a mix of Perl and shellscript
17:48:02 <ais523> the funny thing is, though, it doesn't look like line noise at all
17:48:08 <ehird> it's a mix of q and k
17:48:12 <ais523> it isn't obviously intelligible; but, you can tell there's meaning in there
17:48:20 <ehird> as in, I type in the q "\l /dev/null", and then it gives the internal K code
17:48:27 <ehird> then I get the q)) prompt
17:48:31 <ehird> I suppose that means debugger
17:48:34 <ehird> as doing it more gets me more )s
17:48:39 <ehird> and ^D pops a ) off
17:49:10 <ehird> {if[not 10h=abs type x;x:string x];$[1=count i:where(key DIR)like x,"*";-1 ea..
17:49:15 <ehird> I guess postfix ` is eval
17:50:09 <ehird> The DNA sequencing of q also shows the influence of functional programming. While q is not purely functional, it is arguably as functional as C++, Java and C# are object-oriented.
17:53:03 <ehird> k/q has limited size integers
17:53:09 <ehird> q)5646899984888785456546451513321586789489468465435233165449888788889
17:53:10 <ehird> '5646899984888785456546451513321586789489468465435233165449888788889
17:54:32 <ehird> oh, ais523 is here!
17:54:42 <ais523> how did you not notice?
17:54:48 <ehird> ais523: difficultly.
17:54:49 <ais523> also, I have Enigma levels
17:54:55 <ais523> I've had them for a while, but forgot to paste
17:55:02 <ais523> amusingly, still no AnMaster-style ones
17:55:09 <ehird> ais523: anyway, does c-intercal have any ^Hs in its code?
17:55:12 <ais523> but one of them I've played about 20 times despite having completed it, it's fun
17:55:13 <ehird> or is that moar clc
17:55:31 <ais523> ehird: C-INTERCAL accepts c backspace / as a mingle character
17:55:37 <ais523> it accepts any syntax so long as it's unambiguous
17:55:45 <ehird> ais523: is it idiotmatic
17:55:45 <ais523> well, any syntax used by any INTERCAL compiler
17:56:03 <ais523> well, the Google coding standards don't recommend using literal backspaces
17:56:10 <ais523> and the vast majority of people use $ because it's easier to type
17:56:17 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL programs are often written using literal backspace, though
17:56:32 <ehird> ais523: see, my intercal compiler will have many strange metafeatures used in its implementation and elsewhere
17:56:41 <ehird> ais523: I wanted to expose them as variables prefixed with an interrobang
17:56:45 <ehird> I'll support β½, ofc
17:56:54 <ehird> but I'm wondering whether to support...
17:57:01 <ais523> ?! can exist in regular INTERCAL code
17:57:08 <ehird> ais523: what, as a variable name?
17:57:14 <ais523> "?!4~.5'" is legal code
17:57:19 <ehird> ais523: what, as a variable name?
17:57:35 <ais523> ehird: not as a variable name, but it can appear in a context where the parser couldn't tell them apart for much later
17:57:54 <ehird> ais523: then using ?! sounds perfectly INTERCAL to me.
17:57:59 <ais523> after all, contrast "?!4~.5'" and "?!4~.5"
17:58:09 <ehird> i don't know what those do.
17:58:29 <ehird> what is the ! var prefix again
17:58:37 <ais523> a standard abbreviation
17:58:42 <ehird> okay, what's '. :D
17:58:55 <ais523> and . is a variable identifier
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17:59:04 <ais523> so ! in INTERCAL is like ($ in Perl
17:59:28 <ais523> although remember it's written one character later than in other languages
17:59:31 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:59:36 <ehird> ais523: so: the unary XORing of the selecting of .4 and .5
17:59:43 <ehird> vs the interrobang one which is:
17:59:53 <ehird> since you have an unmatched '
18:00:01 <ehird> well, I don't see any problem there.
18:00:05 <ais523> yes, but you can't tell that until much later in the expression
18:00:15 <ais523> and I'm wondering if you could do two of them which cancelled each other out somehow
18:00:17 <ehird> gimme some code that actually is valid in both forms
18:00:46 <ehird> the recommended form will probably be β½, for Γ¦sthetics
18:01:16 <ais523> ,1SUB'?!1~.2''.3'?!4~.5'' is, I think, ambiguous
18:01:29 <ehird> ais523: wow, nothing simpler?
18:01:56 <ais523> it may actually be ambiguous even without interrobang, let me run it through C-INTERCAL's parser
18:02:40 <ehird> ais523: anyway, which do you think I should allow out of β½ ?! !? <the unicode char ?!> <the unicode char !?> ?^H! !^H?
18:02:47 <ehird> and which do you think I should recommend?
18:02:57 <ais523> you should allow all but the second and third
18:03:13 <ais523> multichar operators /must/ be overpunched in INTERCAL, or abbreviated to a single char somehow
18:03:18 <ais523> otherwise you're just wasting horizontal space
18:03:33 <ehird> ais523: hmm ... but OTOH, that breaks ASCII-compatibility
18:03:47 <ehird> e.g., with C-INTERCAL you don't need to use any non-printable-ASCII, right?
18:03:52 <ehird> er, save for newlines
18:04:08 <ais523> but most of ASCII is already taken
18:04:18 <ehird> but I'd like to keep it
18:04:29 <ehird> ais523: maybe I could accept "^H" as ^H
18:04:34 <ais523> well, ?^HI is obviously the princeton syntax for the operator
18:04:40 <ehird> so you'd type !^H? -- literally
18:04:49 <ais523> the atari syntax would be a single entirely different character
18:05:08 <ais523> C-INTERCAL is Atari, CLC-INTERCAL is Princeton
18:05:24 <ais523> and that's probably not a good idea, although it /is/ what C-INTERCAL does internally to try to explain the syntax to lex
18:05:32 <ehird> why's it not a good idea? :-(
18:05:40 <ehird> it is confusing...
18:05:50 <ais523> because ^H is hardly portable, the keyboard might not even have a control key
18:05:56 <ais523> you have to think back to 1972 here
18:06:00 <ais523> not modern assumptions
18:06:02 <ehird> the two characters
18:06:11 <ais523> ^H is utterly unidiomatic
18:06:25 <ais523> it would make no sense to a 1970s programmer, most likely
18:06:28 <ehird> ais523: well, c-intercal isn't 1972 compatible is it?
18:06:52 <ais523> you have to convert the code to a modern character set using convickt if it's written in EBCDIC or something weird like that
18:06:57 <ais523> but it runs 1972 code without modifications
18:07:09 <ehird> I mean, a person from 1972 couldn't utilize all of cintercal
18:07:26 <ais523> they could if they had the compiler and a copy of the manual
18:07:55 <ehird> what, it uses no non-1972 characters?
18:08:53 <ais523> ASCII and EBCDIC both existed back then
18:09:12 <ais523> and yes, it uses no characters that didn't exist in 1972
18:09:18 <ehird> ais523: and thus the characters ^ and H existed
18:09:27 <ais523> but I mean, ^H didn't mean backspace
18:09:28 <ehird> thus ^ followed by H as backspace is not a problem for 1972
18:09:36 <ais523> it's not that people couldn't type it, it's that it made absolutely no sense
18:09:38 <ehird> ais523: and $ didn't mean mingle either
18:09:39 <ais523> compared to the rest of INTERCAL
18:09:54 <ais523> ehird: no, but currency signs in general mean mingle
18:10:00 <ais523> it's a simple generalisation
18:10:12 <ehird> ais523: regardless, intercal has never made esnse
18:10:16 <ais523> and C-INTERCAL accepts the old-fashioned notation for mingle too
18:10:25 <ais523> and please don't say that, there are reasons behind everything there
18:10:27 <ais523> they're just bad reasons
18:11:02 <ehird> ais523: does c-intercal accept unicode cent?
18:11:26 <ais523> it accepts latin-1 cent too
18:11:31 <ehird> ais523: I just don't want to break ASCIIpatibility
18:11:40 <ais523> it treats it as exclusive-or if given in latin-1, or mingle if given in utf-8
18:11:48 <ais523> which DTRT for nearly all programs
18:11:50 <ehird> OTOH, I don't want to water down the interrobang
18:12:07 <ais523> I seriously thing ?<literal backspace>! is the right way to do it
18:12:25 <ais523> and because CLC-INTERCAL uses the yen sign as an approximation as V backspace -
18:12:32 <ehird> ais523: my favoured editor doesn't do literal backspaces. so.
18:12:33 <ais523> but nearly all CLC-INTERCAL programs are written in Latin-1
18:12:36 <ehird> i don't really want to recommend them
18:12:40 <ais523> ehird: your favoured editor fails
18:12:55 <ehird> ais523: most editors do
18:12:57 <ais523> even Notepad does literal backspaces if you copy and paste them from elsewhere
18:13:00 <ehird> apart from emacs and vi
18:13:04 <ehird> ofc my editor does that
18:13:17 <ehird> I mean it doesn't display them nicely and I can't enter them properly
18:13:24 <ehird> unlike, say, vi, where you can do ^V backspace
18:13:52 <ais523> edit.com can do literal backspaces, it's available on pretty much all Windows systems and is older than Notepad
18:13:57 <ehird> meh, I'll just support unicode
18:14:21 <ais523> ehird: just ship with a copy of convickt, it was specifically invented to avoid these sorts of problems...
18:14:40 <ehird> ais523: how crazy do you think marking a certain type of literal with unbalanced ' and " and nothing else is?
18:14:43 <ehird> that is, 'foo" is it and so is "foo'
18:15:07 <ais523> I suspect it'll lead to massive ambiguity
18:15:14 <ehird> ais523: Precisely.
18:15:17 <ais523> just trying to explain what something as simple as .1~.2~.3 does is hard enough
18:15:34 <ais523> in the end I had to find out by experiment, despite having two sets of documentation and two sets of source cde
18:15:45 <ehird> why is that difficult
18:15:53 <ais523> which way does it associate/
18:16:18 <ehird> (1) DO β½1 β 'DO GIVE UP"
18:16:26 <ehird> I could do β to β
18:16:37 <ehird> unicode that's similar to ascii is always the answer.
18:16:41 <ais523> if you want to keep compatibility with other compilers, CLC-INTERCAL uses , as a delimiter for that sort of string
18:16:44 <ehird> (1) DO β½1 β βDO GIVE UPβ
18:16:48 <ehird> guess what that does
18:17:11 <ais523> assigns code to a variable?
18:17:14 <ehird> ais523: hint -- it's the basis for all control flow
18:17:28 <ehird> (1) DO β½2 β βDO GIVE UPβ
18:17:36 <ais523> "it's the basis for all control flow" <--- every INTERCAL implementor ever, talking about about ten different things
18:18:20 <ehird> ais523: it assigns the code "DO GIVE UP" to the line 2
18:19:23 <ehird> ais523: and yes, COME FROM is implemented by symlinking the given line to the lowest untaken fractional of the line number you come from
18:20:05 <ehird> ais523: that is, "(2) COME FROM 1" would symlink 1.1 to 2, or if 1.1 is taken, it'd symlink 1.2, etc
18:20:10 <ais523> symlinking with operand overloading?
18:20:12 <ais523> or a different method?
18:20:16 <ais523> what about computed COME FROM
18:20:19 <ais523> also, your syntax is wrong
18:20:25 <ehird> ais523: yes, my syntax is wrong
18:20:25 <ais523> (2) COME FROM (1) <--- uncomputed
18:20:29 <ehird> I'm just explaining the idea
18:20:30 <ais523> (2) COME FROM #1 <--- computed
18:20:41 <ais523> grr, something's wrong with filebin.ca
18:20:48 <ehird> ais523: with computed, I think it'd do something crazy.
18:20:55 <ehird> I'm not sure what, but I don't think humanity could handle it.
18:21:13 <ehird> Operand overloading fractional line numbers.
18:21:26 <ais523> it's simple enough, you can overload a variable to an expression
18:21:50 <ehird> ais523: but it's a rather INTERCAL basis for control flow, don't you think?
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18:22:12 <ais523> ehird: it's one way to implement it
18:22:17 <ais523> but, shouldn't you link them all to the same fractional
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18:22:43 <ais523> (1) DO NOTHING (2) DO COME FROM (1) (3) DO COME FROM (1)
18:22:49 <ais523> causes control to transfer to both (2) and (3)
18:22:52 <ais523> rather than one or the other
18:23:15 <ehird> ais523: if 1.1 was already linked, it'd follow it and go from there
18:23:20 <ehird> so it'd try 1.1 then 2.1, I suppose
18:23:24 <ehird> ais523: is this threaing/
18:23:31 <ehird> it transfers control to them simultaneously
18:23:33 <ehird> ais523: this is in -72?
18:23:40 <AnMaster> ais523, it is an error without threading right?
18:23:42 <ais523> COME FROM wasn't in -72 at all
18:23:48 <ehird> ais523: oh, it wasn't?
18:23:49 <AnMaster> I forgot the funny message though
18:24:02 <ehird> ais523: well, can you operand overload something to multiple things?
18:24:05 <ais523> as Google says, INTERCAL has become best known for a feature that wasn't even in the original
18:24:06 <AnMaster> something like, um, flow graph?
18:24:17 <ais523> ehird: not simultaneously, at least not in C-INTERCAL
18:24:19 <ehird> ais523: if not, I'll add that, and cause the program to thread with both values whenever you use it
18:24:30 <ais523> in CLC-INTERCAL, you might be able to using the "quantum" stuff
18:24:30 <ehird> ais523: thus, COME FROM doesn't have to do anything
18:24:31 <AnMaster> ais523, error was something like "too many connections in control-flow graph" iirc?
18:24:40 <ehird> ais523: the interpreter tries 1.1, and it forks, getting both values, one in each thread
18:24:41 <ais523> FLOW DIAGRAM IS EXCESSIVELY CONNECTED
18:24:43 <ehird> and continues to them
18:24:46 <ehird> ais523: awesome y/n
18:24:53 <AnMaster> ais523, ah that sounds about right
18:25:14 <ehird> multiple operand overloading and code lines as variables = control flow and threading in one
18:26:01 <ais523> anyway, Enigma level: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1392961 (ais52309_1.xml)
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18:26:12 <ehird> ais523: you seem slightly underwhelmed
18:26:21 <ais523> ehird: I'm used to this sort of thing
18:26:26 <ais523> it happens all the time in INTERCAL
18:26:34 <ehird> here I was thinking operand overloading to multiple targets causing a quantum-ish threading, then using that on variable names to do threaded COME FROM
18:26:42 <ehird> ais523: sure, but I'm a newbie :-P
18:27:02 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/raw/1392963 (ais52310_1.xml)
18:27:12 <ehird> ais523: it should be noted that I'm doing a compiler
18:27:15 <ais523> 10 is a level that someone had to do sometime; 09 is a level that I've played loads of times
18:27:22 <ais523> ehird: compiler, or interp?
18:27:26 <ais523> and what are you compiling to, if compiling?
18:27:36 <ehird> ais523: compiler, and INTERCAL
18:27:50 <ais523> you're compiling INTERCAL to INTERCAL?
18:27:57 <ais523> as in, modern INTERCAL to INTERCAL-72?
18:28:03 <ais523> or just running through cat?
18:28:11 <ehird> ais523: nope, modern INTERCAL to the compiler internal extensions only
18:28:30 <ehird> thus, all that's left is the internal compiler extensions
18:28:54 <ehird> what you do with the result is up to you, probably I'll have a compiler from that to something else
18:29:11 <ais523> so it's actually quite a CLC-INTERCAL-like system
18:29:20 <ehird> ais523: but not cheating
18:29:28 <ehird> as in, CLC-INTERCAL's extensions are only for compiler use
18:29:28 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL isn't cheating either, IMO
18:29:31 <ehird> and discouraged elsewhere
18:30:07 <ehird> ais523: also, no sneaky embedded perl
18:30:40 <ehird> the essential problem is that I think the compiler results will require the compiler
18:30:49 <AnMaster> ais523, style of these two new engima levels?
18:30:51 <ehird> but hey, who cares
18:31:11 <ais523> AnMaster: 10 is a pure intelligence puzzle translated into Enigmaese
18:31:18 <ehird> ais523: oh, and you know the INTERCAL IDE (INTERCAL Defenestration Environment) Environment I was talking about?
18:31:22 <ais523> 09 is rather interesting and hard to classify
18:31:33 <ehird> ais523: yeah you do :-P
18:31:37 <ehird> ais523: when I said i'd port it to gnustep
18:31:39 <ais523> 09 mostly comes out as a mix of intelligence and dex
18:31:42 <ehird> and give out a gnustep vm with it preloaded
18:31:45 <AnMaster> ais523, 10 sounds interesting definitely, and 9 is hard to know from that description
18:31:49 <ehird> ais523: Better: it'll be written for ReactOS only
18:31:51 <ehird> it won't run onwindows
18:32:07 <ais523> AnMaster: how would you classify a level that's just floor and oxyds?
18:32:10 <ehird> oh, and maybe WINE
18:32:28 <ais523> 9's like that, just the floor is interestingly weird which makes the level very interesting
18:32:33 <ehird> I found it amusing, anyway
18:32:37 <ais523> ehird: sounds about right
18:32:42 <ais523> WINE and ReactOS share lots of code IIRC
18:32:51 <ais523> and WINE runs on Windows, so it would even be portable
18:32:53 <ehird> oh, in that case I'll have to get it running on only one of them
18:33:02 <AnMaster> ais523, um. depends on size and complexity. "Tutorial" comes to mind for easier ones.
18:33:14 <ehird> ais523: ideally, windows users would have to run the reactos-in-a-vm
18:33:17 <ais523> it's just one screen, 12 oxyds
18:33:22 <ais523> and a floor which makes it /very/ interesting
18:33:34 <ehird> ofc, it'd be all packed up nicely so you can just open an executable and it opens the vm and ide
18:33:49 <ehird> the general concept is making it easy to do oh-so-horrific things
18:33:57 <pikhq> Could possibly even run on Windows with some of the libraries replaced with WINE's.
18:34:06 <ehird> ais523: care to explain Tourism?
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18:34:59 <ais523> ehird: if you know the classic puzzle, just experimenting a bit should make it obvious
18:35:00 <AnMaster> interesting, pressing ctrl-c in the terminal you started engima in causes it to go up one level in the menu system, same as esc in the enigma window
18:35:21 <ais523> ehird: basically, you have to get the chess stone onto every single square of the level
18:35:28 <ais523> but you can't put it back to a square it's been on before
18:35:29 <ehird> that sure sounds unfun
18:35:41 <ais523> 10 isn't fun to play more than once
18:35:51 <ais523> and you probably want to work out the solution before typing it in
18:35:56 <ais523> I did it in under 20 minutes using Prolog
18:36:30 <ais523> anyway, you should both be able to work out what the rules of Don't Look Back are more or less trivially with a bit of experimentation
18:36:56 <ehird> rules of don't look back: if you go on a square you've already been on you freeze :-P
18:37:03 <AnMaster> ais523, however, those chess pieces doesn't like to move most of the time you hit them, only in about 1 of 10 cases do they actually move. Is this intentional or am I doing something wrong?
18:37:07 <AnMaster> I noticed that in other levels too.
18:37:15 <ais523> AnMaster: to move them, you bounce diagonally on them
18:37:35 <ais523> ehird: you can't control the marble on a square you've been to before, but if you go in with enough momentum you come out the other side
18:38:20 <ehird> "why are they tryingο»Ώ to build a brain? how about trying to figure out how to clean up all this corruption and feed the hungry"
18:38:24 <ehird> β Youtube comment
18:39:35 * AnMaster tries to remember the correct pattern for visit every tile once (now that ais spoiled it, though that was one of the possible solutions I were considering even before I saw that)
18:41:04 <ehird> how is it a spoiler
18:41:07 <ais523> yay, just got a new personal record on 09
18:41:20 <ais523> ehird: AnMaster likes spending lots of time working out how levels work...
18:41:56 <ais523> amusingly, my time on easy on 09 is over twice my time on hard
18:41:58 <ehird> ais523: yeah nothing more enjoyable than sitting in front of a screen moving randomly until it's solved.
18:42:00 <ais523> just because I've played hard so much
18:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, actually that won't work. Since you can't visit any tile twice, so you could make the level unfinishable by visiting them in the wrong order.
18:43:20 <ehird> AnMaster: see? more boring sitting there moving randomly
18:43:35 <AnMaster> I disagree with the word "boring" there.
18:44:21 <ais523> enigma level difficulty is classified into five categories: intelligence, dexterity, speed, knowledge, patience
18:44:29 <ehird> , amount you are similar to AnMaster
18:44:30 <ais523> as far as I can tell, AnMaster actually likes the patience levels
18:44:51 <ais523> personally, I think patience levels are just annoying
18:44:58 <ais523> I /can/ make Enigma levels larger than one screen, I just don't
18:45:54 <AnMaster> ais523, I find that rather amusing, since nethack is very much about patience (as well as intelligence, luck and several other factors)
18:46:44 <ehird> it's patience but not that kind of patience
18:48:12 * ais523 does Danger Flag again
18:48:24 <ais523> anyone here solve it yet?
18:48:28 <ais523> that's intelligence, speed, and dexterity
18:48:28 <ehird> ais523: i still don't get how you can do it with just the ones you have
18:48:45 <ehird> also, I find speed levels rather intolerable
18:48:50 <ais523> I'll tell you the solution if you like, but in /msg so as not to spoil it for everyone else
18:49:15 <ehird> I really like the meditation levels
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18:51:45 <ais523> I like some of them, but not others
18:53:04 <ais523> what about 07, has anyone done that yet?
18:53:50 * ais523 suspects AnMaster is busy doing 10
18:54:18 <AnMaster> ais523, correct, almost done though
18:55:09 <ehird> anyone know a tiny light integrated board thing that can run linux & x11?
18:56:05 <ais523> gumstix I used for a University project
18:56:10 <ais523> it could manage that relatively easily
18:56:13 <ais523> but the hardware quality is low
18:56:17 <ais523> and ordering them from the US takes ages
18:56:19 <ehird> define hardware quality
18:56:30 <ais523> I mean, the ones we had broke, despite no abnormal use, within a few months
18:56:40 <ais523> and some were broken on arrival and had to be sent back
18:56:58 <ehird> ais523: and it could handle hooking up a screen and running x11?
18:57:23 <ehird> " motherboard schematics and design information are proprietary"
18:57:33 <ais523> yes, but you had to buy the screen separately
18:57:35 <ais523> and it was rather small
18:57:38 <ehird> " motherboard schematics and design information are proprietary"
18:57:55 <ais523> ehird: strange, because schematics were available
18:58:07 <ehird> ais523: only once you bought it, I guess
18:58:15 <ais523> nah, they were on one of their websites
18:58:22 <ais523> the problem is there were both gumstix.com and gumstix.org
18:58:29 <ehird> ais523: this is for a Very Insane Project
18:58:29 <ais523> which were run by the same company, but seemed to be competing anyway
18:58:37 <ais523> and all sorts of other weird inconsistencies
18:58:51 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't hard really, you just need to plan ahead so the game doesn't become unfinishable.
18:59:04 <ehird> actually, I'm doubting myself, even
18:59:05 <AnMaster> and be careful so you don't hit it the wrong way
18:59:24 <ehird> also, totally superfluous
18:59:33 <ehird> i have zero need for it
18:59:44 <ais523> I mean, one site would often say something was unavailable, and the other would have it
18:59:53 <AnMaster> ais523, are blocks random in 9?
18:59:56 <ais523> there were also two contradictory and entirely different ways of how to build the things
19:00:00 <AnMaster> if so, is it really always finishable?
19:00:01 <ais523> AnMaster: yep, random oxyds
19:00:23 <ehird> ais523: so, would you recommend these stix of gum
19:00:23 <ais523> as I said earlier, fl-acwhite doesn't completely stop black marbles
19:00:37 <ais523> ehird: not really, especially if you don't live in the US
19:00:50 <ais523> they do arrive eventually, and they do work for a while
19:00:51 <ehird> what would you recommend instead
19:01:02 <ais523> well, apparently blackfin's a major competitor to them
19:01:15 <ais523> and I haven't heard anything bad about them, but I've never used them either
19:01:16 <ais523> might be worth looking into
19:01:28 <ehird> I suppose it depends on what I'm doing
19:01:38 <AnMaster> ais523, 09 is one of those levels where you miss "restore to previous snapshot" often found in zsnes and other such emulators. ;)
19:01:55 <ehird> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfin doesn't seem "complete"
19:02:00 <ais523> AnMaster: run it in easy mode, then
19:02:01 <ehird> how much do gumstix cost
19:02:02 <AnMaster> <ais523> as I said earlier, fl-acwhite doesn't completely stop black marbles <-- really?
19:02:17 <ais523> AnMaster: no, they have zero mouseforce, but not infinite friction
19:02:25 <ais523> go into that floor fast enough, and you come out the other side
19:02:35 <ehird> ais523: do you know?
19:02:35 <ais523> that's just basic Enigma knowledge, how did you not know that?
19:02:46 <ais523> I may be able to find my old notes, though
19:02:48 <ehird> ais523: guess he doesn't know how it works internally
19:03:00 <ais523> AnMaster: have you ever read the Enigma manual?
19:03:08 <ais523> you should, half the game is a lot easier if you know how it works
19:03:16 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, when I first tried it
19:03:44 <ais523> well, you should at least know from experimentation that no floor stops you instantly
19:03:57 <AnMaster> engima 0.90 or something like that, maybe 0.92
19:04:16 <AnMaster> ais523, I usually go slow because I suck at mouse handling at high speed.
19:04:56 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, that level, is it always possible to solve without going very fast?
19:05:01 <ehird> ais523: my insane project would be "trying to make my own smartphone"
19:05:15 <ehird> which is why I wanted a tiny light board that can run linux & x11
19:05:15 <ais523> AnMaster: I'd say yes, moving the marble fast enough to go two squares at once is not "very fast"
19:05:27 <ehird> although I'm not certain how you hook the actual phoney phone stuff up
19:05:50 <AnMaster> ais523, what if you drop "very" then?
19:06:00 <ais523> it's easiest to do playing slowly
19:06:28 <ais523> after all, if you have the mouseforce set to a sane value rather than 2 or 3, you hardly need to move the mouse in order to skid two squares rather than one
19:07:03 <ais523> it would be very disappointing if you missed out on the 70% or 80% of Enigma levels which require the ability to move multiple squares at a time...
19:07:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the difference between easy and hard on that level apart from the first tile not being a different type compared to the rest of the floor?
19:07:36 <ais523> if the first tile is different, that means pressing f3 lets you go back to it
19:07:40 <ais523> so you get three chances at the level
19:07:54 <ais523> if the first tile isn't different, pressing f3 is fatal, because you'd just land back on a square you couldn't move on
19:08:01 <ais523> so it's the difference between one chance and three chances
19:08:28 <ais523> http://code.google.com/p/cadie/source/browse/trunk/CADIE.I <--- that's better
19:08:40 <ehird> ais523: you got commit access?
19:10:25 <ais523> now to test J-INTERCAL on it
19:11:16 <ais523> AnMaster: how fast, btw?
19:12:16 <AnMaster> ais523, and I was brute forcing randomness of the first two I hit (restarting level until they were same colour. I did end up needing to cross white once only
19:13:54 <AnMaster> anyway the name "tourism" made it rather clear what the level was about. So I wonder why ehird didn't manage to figure it out himself...
19:15:02 <AnMaster> sure a bit of thought yes, but after noticing visited tiles were covered by marble passable tiles, the correct solution was the only one left.
19:15:23 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe ehird's never heard of the Knight's Tour?
19:15:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well that could explain it indeed.
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19:16:51 <AnMaster> ais523, how are those intelligence, dexterity, speed, ... ratings made?
19:17:02 <ehird> it decides all the rating
19:17:10 <ehird> and it gives them the ratings
19:17:15 <ehird> very helpful that unicorn
19:17:24 <ais523> AnMaster: they're determined by the maintainers and public opinion, I think
19:17:32 <ais523> but there are relatively objective guidelines for deciding the
19:19:29 <AnMaster> ais523, do you like the level "In Sync" (enigma III #83)?
19:20:47 <AnMaster> ais523, and another question: What exactly do the knowledge rating mean. Knowledge of game mechanics? Knowledge of how to solve the level (requiring trial and error to figure out right way)? Or something else?
19:20:55 <ais523> knowledge of game mechanics
19:21:04 <ais523> knowledge is completely objective, and depends on just which mechanics are in your level
19:21:14 <AnMaster> not the best one, but rather interesting
19:21:54 <ais523> so something like my 09, or III/26, has knowledge 6 due to having unique mechanics of its own
19:22:06 <ais523> knowledge 5 means you're exploiting really obscure behaviour of the core
19:22:13 <ais523> like spring over laser, or chess stone on swamp
19:22:34 <AnMaster> what does chess stone on swap do?
19:22:53 <ehird> I wonder where you can buy touchscreens
19:23:30 <ais523> AnMaster: sinks gradually
19:23:54 <ais523> knowledge 4 is for obscure or misleading things that don't involve interactions, like fake abyss or coffee stones
19:24:03 <AnMaster> ais523, ok that isn't too surprising, considering that is what marbles do too
19:24:17 <ais523> 3 is the typical knowledge level, the advanced tutorial hits most of the limits of knowledge 3
19:24:27 <AnMaster> coffee stone? I thought it was an object
19:24:29 <ais523> 1 is only for really obvious things, like death stones
19:24:33 <ais523> AnMaster: it's an item and a stone
19:24:44 <ais523> coffee stones are opaque and fixed, but turn transparent and movable if you hit them
19:24:52 <ais523> and both states are disguised as something else
19:24:57 <ais523> I'm not sure if they were ever used
19:24:58 <oerjan> 12:31 < ais523> instead of naming the new module after him, they went and called their newest treadmill the Combined Operational Load Bearing External Resistance Treadmill
19:25:06 <AnMaster> ais523, why are they named coffee stones?
19:25:13 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know
19:25:19 <oerjan> now if he had just had a name ending with M, he'd have been all set
19:27:35 <AnMaster> <oerjan> 12:31 < ais523> instead of naming the new module after him, they went and called their newest treadmill the Combined Operational Load Bearing External Resistance Treadmill <-- context? it doesn't seem to be from 12:31 today (Checked Norwegian timezone and UTC)
19:28:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: kerlo's logs, see topic
19:28:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, but which timezone is it?
19:28:46 <ehird> AnMaster: u s of a
19:29:01 <ehird> (mayitrestinpeace)
19:29:09 <AnMaster> ehird, US west cost and east cost are in different timezones
19:29:20 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
19:29:23 <ehird> because it is, AnMaster
19:29:38 <ehird> i'd contact the server admin, only I don't know who that is.
19:30:07 <ehird> AnMaster: it crashed and nobody restarted it
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19:30:38 <AnMaster> <ais523> ah, NASA came up with an interesting solution to the whole Colbert thing <-- so what is this Colbert thing then.
19:30:50 <AnMaster> context didn't really explain it in this case to me.
19:31:07 <ehird> AnMaster: just give it up
19:31:08 <ehird> it's not important
19:31:16 <ehird> tl;dr people voted Colbert, as in stephen colbert
19:31:20 <ehird> for the name of a new nasa module
19:31:21 <Slereah_> The thing is that Colbert is trying to name everything after him
19:31:28 <ehird> nasa didn't like that, because colbert does this all the time
19:31:33 <ehird> so they got around it with an acronym
19:31:44 <oerjan> um that's not getting around it
19:31:59 <oerjan> they'd probably have made a backronym regardless, don't you think
19:32:06 <ehird> AnMaster: if you want to ask who stephen colbert is, google.com
19:32:17 <ais523> someone said that it was Colbert's job to exploit bugs in buggy public processes
19:32:18 <ehird> oerjan: for "Glider" or "Elegance" or whatever they were offering?
19:32:25 * oerjan hits AnMaster with the saucepan ====\___/
19:32:29 <ehird> <AnMaster> too lazy; didn't google
19:32:30 <AnMaster> ehird, the name does sound familiar.. hm... Comedy central or something iirc?
19:32:40 <ehird> colbert report. satirical news show.
19:33:36 <oerjan> ais523: btw did you notice/did anyone paste here the reddit about the Times' top 100 list voting?
19:33:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> <AnMaster> too lazy; didn't google <-- from when would that be?
19:33:50 <ehird> AnMaster: when you asked what "tl;dr" meant
19:35:13 <AnMaster> ehird, You were quoting me saying that. Did I ever say it? I don't think so. But if you could provide timestamp?
19:35:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Whoooooooooosh!
19:35:25 <ehird> WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!
19:36:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess that translates to that I never said it indeed.
19:36:44 <oerjan> http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1883644_1886141,00.html
19:36:54 <ais523> hahaha: someone on Reddit said that the easy way to get Reddit markdown working properly was to go over to stackoverflow and preview the comment there, then copy the markdown back to reddit and paste it
19:37:32 <AnMaster> ais523, so reddit doesn't have a preview function?
19:37:41 <ais523> apparently not, based on that
19:37:48 <ais523> I don't know, I don't have a username
19:37:48 <oerjan> (hint, look at the initial letters)
19:37:59 <ais523> reddit people go on about how it has a low barrier to entry, but it's higher than Slashdot's or Wikipedia's
19:38:49 <ehird> marblecakealsothegame
19:39:50 <ehird> ooh they have a video
19:41:40 <ehird> http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1883644_1889408_1889412,00.html
19:41:48 <ehird> WEATHER, OR PERSON?
19:44:45 <ehird> ais523: know any common small screen sizes?
19:45:03 <AnMaster> just a huge "page requires flash"
19:45:11 <ehird> AnMaster: I wonder why that may be.
19:45:20 <ehird> Let me think. Oh, I know.
19:45:23 <ais523> ehird: 320*240 is /very/ common
19:45:23 <ehird> It's because it requires flash.
19:45:29 <AnMaster> both for http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1883644_1889408_1889412,00.html and <oerjan> http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1883644_1886141,00.html
19:45:39 <ehird> ais523: it's a bit square for a candybar-style phone
19:45:53 <ehird> AnMaster: If you enabled Flash, you'd get a video. If not, your loss.
19:46:14 <ais523> ehird: ah, yes, phone screens are generally even smaller
19:46:31 <ehird> ais523: nah, not touchscreens
19:46:49 <ehird> the iphone is 480x320 @ 3.5i
19:47:14 <ehird> the G1 is the same res @ 3.2in
19:47:26 <ehird> so I guess 480x320 is the done thing
19:47:35 <ehird> swap those for horizontal mode ofc
19:47:41 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, had you never heard of knight's tour before ais mentioned it today?
19:47:50 <ehird> AnMaster: it rings a bell
19:48:27 <AnMaster> then odd you couldn't figure out that Tourism level...
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19:50:32 <ehird> wonder how much a 3.x in 480x320 touchscreen costs.
19:53:13 <Gracenotes> really, the Time acrostic ordering... blows my mind.. >_>
19:54:07 <ehird> Is XP antivirus 2009 compatible with Vista?
19:54:07 <ehird> I got a new computer running windows Vista but I already paid for XP antivirus 2009 on my old computer.Will I be able to transfer it to my new one or is only compatible with windows XP?
19:54:11 <ehird> Additional Details
19:54:13 <ehird> I have paid $50 for that program and I'm going to use it if I can.
19:54:17 <ehird> Can you also give me the link to re download it because they didn't send me a CD
19:54:21 <ehird> please help me I google it but all I can find is remove instructions not the likn to download it. help I'm losing my $50
19:54:26 <ehird> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081130123314AAe3klv
19:54:53 <ais523> were there any sensible answers?
19:55:01 <ehird> ais523: all of them
19:55:03 <ehird> but the asker didn't listen
19:55:04 <ais523> "Well,since you insist to use it,yes all trojan and viruses are compatible with all windows platforms."
19:55:11 <ehird> factually false, amusingly
19:55:26 <Gracenotes> yes, I'd like to see some 64-bit viruses!
19:55:33 <ais523> I'm slightly surprised that was chosen as best
19:55:39 <ais523> Gracenotes: I'm sure there are some by now, surely?
19:55:44 <ehird> ais523: it said it was compatible, see the author's note
19:55:48 <ais523> Vista x64 is probably a bigger install base than Linux
19:55:55 <Gracenotes> oh, possibly. It is a reasonable market
19:56:12 <ais523> yes, I mean on desktop computers
19:56:12 <ehird> 19:54 slava has joined (n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com)
19:56:12 <ehird> 19:54 slava: any news about clog?
19:56:28 <ehird> Even Slava Pestov is hurt by the drastic clog outage!
19:57:40 <ehird> ais523: Slava Pestov, author of jedit and the Factor stack language
19:58:37 <ehird> anyone know any free-as-in-tibet non-dejavu/bitstream-vera fonts?
19:58:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I would give Tourism a rating of 10 btw. :)
19:59:07 <ais523> AnMaster: you mean you liked it?
19:59:21 <AnMaster> ais523, do you plan to submit these levels for inclusion in future engima versions?
20:00:00 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe some of them; I haven't looked up the process
20:00:24 <ais523> hmm... http://www.nongnu.org/enigma/
20:00:27 <ais523> interesting domain name
20:00:31 <oerjan> ehird: you mean a font that isn't really a subset of CJK, but which will have you beaten up by the chinese if you claim so?
20:00:32 <ais523> which I vaguely recognise
20:01:06 <ehird> A shit sourceforge ripoff started because sf wasn't open soucre
20:01:15 <ehird> It has many qualities, including being shit.
20:03:55 <ehird> "Eliezer fancies himself as a thinker for the morality of the future, but his vision of morality is the ancient rotting cadaver of collectivist egalitarian altruistic utilitarianism, as inculcated to him by his judeo-christian upbringing (judeo in this case)." β FranΓ§ois-RenΓ© Rideau, founder of the TUNES project
20:03:58 <ehird> I have only a few words
20:04:02 <ehird> WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
20:04:37 * oerjan guesses rideau is a libertarian
20:04:50 <oerjan> which i vaguely recall too
20:04:59 <ehird> no wait, inculcated
20:05:44 <oerjan> basically rideau doesn't understand that if a AGI were libertarian, we would ALL DIE
20:06:05 <ehird> oerjan: Amended General Idiot?
20:06:16 <oerjan> artificial general intelligence
20:06:56 <oerjan> i believe yudkowsky uses that term
20:07:03 <ehird> "Eliezer is brilliant but I agree he is not selfish enough. Good job taking him on."
20:07:09 <ehird> no, you can't have any sweets.
20:07:13 <ehird> no, I'm not going to eat them
20:07:18 <ehird> i didn't push you.
20:08:32 <oerjan> i suppose one _could_ create an AGI to enforce libertarianism, though.
20:09:17 <oerjan> i don't know enough about libertarianism to know if that would be truly paradoxical
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20:11:03 * oerjan ponders the possibility that maybe he is the only person in the universe. not because of solipsism, but because i once was a selfish libertarian creating an AI
20:11:42 <oerjan> actually no, i would have had to be a masochist too
20:15:39 <ais523> oerjan: that would be really quite interesting
20:15:46 <ais523> have you ever considered that you may be a simulation of yourself?
20:16:03 <ais523> as in, of someone who exists, and in fact programmed you to be the same as them?
20:20:38 <oerjan> i don't think i could be the same as anyone who _would_ do such a thing
20:21:29 <oerjan> unless of course my morals go strongly downhill in the future
20:21:37 <ais523> hahaha: http://www.mag-heut.net/blackball/index.php?act=ST&f=9&t=1131&s=85d3bb14b8ff01e0ef75f19c7206463d
20:26:52 <oerjan> 13:24 < ais523> as Google says, INTERCAL has become best known for a feature that wasn't even in the original
20:27:00 <oerjan> a bit like haskell and monads
20:27:08 <ais523> wow, they weren't in original haskell?
20:27:23 <oerjan> nope, it used command streams
20:27:51 <oerjan> with a continuation library wrapping it for sanity, i think
20:28:35 <oerjan> a program was a function that took a stream of results as input and returned a stream of requests
20:28:50 <oerjan> (and yes, that's not swapped)
20:29:23 <Deewiant> Wasn't it just main :: [String] -> String -> String originally
20:29:30 <oerjan> using the underlying streams directly had frequent deadlock problems
20:29:42 <ais523> oerjan: that's brilliant, it's the solution Thutu uses to the same problem
20:30:00 <ais523> the interesting thing about Thutu using that solution, of course, is that as a strict language there's an utterly obvious solution but it didn't use it
20:30:01 <Deewiant> Hmm, wonder where I got that from
20:30:21 <oerjan> Deewiant: the interact function does that today
20:30:39 <oerjan> but that can only do a single stdin -> stdout
20:30:53 <Deewiant> Yes, I don't think there's an hInteract
20:31:22 <oerjan> Deewiant: well you can obviously build one with hGetContents
20:31:33 <Deewiant> Sure, the primitives are all there
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20:32:33 <oerjan> unless there was a haskell version that couldn't do file IO at all
20:35:37 * oerjan found http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/haskell-1990-2006/msg01089.html but that's too late
20:35:56 <oerjan> although historically interesting
20:37:58 <Deewiant> "Thus in the Haskell 1.0 Report, we first defined I/O in terms of streams, but also included a completely equivalent design based on continuations."
20:39:03 <oerjan> heh, i just found that myself
20:39:09 <Deewiant> (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/history-of-haskell/)
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20:51:34 <ais523> hmm... it seems that the way for a website owner to opt out of Phorm is to block Google and Yahoo in their robots.txt
20:51:43 <ais523> I don't exactly call that a sensible way to opt-out...
20:51:55 <ais523> as in, their opt-out code is exactly the same code that blocks google and yahoo
21:06:11 <ehird> ais523: ah, good ol Phorm.
21:06:31 * ehird switching to an isp whose co-founder has explicitly referenced phorm negatively on a mailing list :P
21:06:46 * AnMaster spent some time sending abuse@ emails today. Got sick of all spam.
21:07:01 <ehird> AnMaster: congrats, you wasted a bunch of time.
21:07:03 <AnMaster> well spambots, not email spam.
21:07:15 <ais523> even more amusingly, it's not just looking at * rules
21:07:16 <AnMaster> so I do know the ip it came from
21:07:24 <ais523> but specifically for Googlebot and Slurp if there isn't a * rule
21:07:41 <ais523> their reasoning, apparently, is that a website owner is happy with their data being harvested if they're letting search engines look at it
21:07:44 <AnMaster> since you can't fake that when connecting to irc and the server is set up to require a matching PONG before allowing connection.
21:09:07 <ais523> also, even if you opt-out as a visitor (using cookies), every single web page request you make is redirected twice
21:09:13 <ais523> it can be up to three times if you don't opt out
21:09:32 <AnMaster> ehird, one of the IPs seems to be allocated to cogent themselves. I somehow suspect they won't take that lightly if one of their own computers is infected.
21:09:43 <AnMaster> so I have some hopes of results in that case.
21:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: you gaping chasm reality
21:10:12 <ais523> some people do care about abuse@
21:10:28 <ais523> in fact, sufficiently few people bother to try it nowadays that I wouldn't be surprised if large ISPs could handle the load easily
21:10:58 <AnMaster> well I would assume it since it is listed as allocated to Cogent Communications directly. Their main office specifically.
21:11:11 <ehird> I highly doubt it's true AnMaster
21:11:30 <AnMaster> ehird, Are you saying the whois result is faked?
21:11:45 <ehird> I'm saying I doubt a cogent hq system is spamming
21:11:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it was an automated trojan software
21:12:14 <AnMaster> considering there were loads with the same message from many different IPs and ISPs
21:12:20 <ehird> as opposed to a manual trojan, AnMaster?
21:12:34 <AnMaster> ehird, as opposed to a single person typing it manually
21:12:35 <ehird> "Please POST to this address with this contents: 'cheap viagra'"
21:14:37 <ais523> I interpret that POST as referring to snail mail, not the HTTP request
21:14:43 <ais523> but it's pretty WTFy both ways
21:15:23 <AnMaster> and it was spambots spamming download links containing trojans, nothing about viagra there.
21:18:45 <AnMaster> ais523, and why do people not use abuse@ more often I wonder.
21:19:25 <ais523> AnMaster: because abuse@ is based on the way the Internet is meant to work, not on the way it does work
21:19:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well true, some whois replies list other emails such as anti_spam@ instead.
21:20:07 <ais523> no, you're missing the point
21:20:19 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if there's any way to explain what the point is to you, though
21:20:20 <AnMaster> ais523, probably, but remember I'm an idealist(sp?)
21:20:25 <ehird> 21:18 AnMaster: ais523, and why do people not use abuse@ more often I wonder.
21:20:25 <ehird> 21:19 ais523: AnMaster: because abuse@ is based on the way the Internet is meant to work, not on the way it does work
21:20:28 <ehird> 21:19 AnMaster: ais523, well true, some whois replies list other emails such as anti_spam@ instead.
21:20:36 <ehird> that's the most concise description of AnMaster yet
21:21:11 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean that most people simply gave up because the ISPs didn't care?
21:21:31 <ais523> well, and the sheer volume of abuse@ things which would have to be sent
21:21:51 <ais523> think about it this way: something like 90% of email is spam
21:22:09 <AnMaster> ais523, well indeed, and then there is spambots on irc too (which this case was about)
21:22:18 <ais523> which means that if each spam had a corresponding abuse@, then email would be 9:9:1 spam:abuse:legitimate
21:22:26 <ais523> nobody could handle that workload
21:22:43 <AnMaster> ais523, probably a lot would be for the same IP though
21:23:46 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the largest issue is faked senders for email. An issue which doesn't exist when figuring out the IPs for spambots on irc. Or the registrar of the domain they spammed (which contained a trojan)
21:25:24 <ehird> New features in this release include:
21:25:25 <ehird> * Ported to all major Lisp systems
21:25:31 <ehird> yale haskell was written in lisp
21:26:28 -!- neldoreth has joined.
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21:29:08 <ehird> To run this release, you need a Sun4 or Sun3, probably with 16+MB
21:29:08 <ehird> memory, and GNU C (gcc), version 2.1 or greater, and "perl".
21:30:04 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds sane for an old software?
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21:31:52 <ais523> also, requiring specifically a Sun?
21:32:03 <ais523> also, it's /decades/ since people wrote the name of Perl in quotes
21:32:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well that was a bit strange, why would anyone use quotes for it
21:32:31 <ais523> name of the executable
21:33:06 <AnMaster> ais523, that doesn't really explain it though. Since it is the name of the software as well as the executable.
21:33:13 <AnMaster> thought that would have been Perl
21:33:17 <ehird> ais523: well, 1993
21:33:27 <ehird> "perl" it really sounds like they don't know what it is
21:33:34 <ehird> you need this "perl" thing if you've heard of i
21:34:53 <ehird> * GHC provides an extensible I/O system, based on a "monad" [1]. (The
21:34:53 <ehird> standard Haskell I/O system is built on this foundation.)
21:35:02 <ehird> - Ability to write arbitrary in-line C-language code, using
21:35:02 <ehird> the I/O monad to retain referential transparency.
21:35:32 <GregorR> Presumably you can write C code which will act as an I/O monad.
21:35:52 <ehird> GregorR: I assume it was something like ghcMagicC :: String -> IO ()
21:36:21 <GregorR> I've never heard of it, but I was assuming it would be built into the grammar and that the C code could be * -> IO (*)
21:37:38 <ehird> * No interactive system. This is a batch compiler only. (Any
21:37:44 <ehird> * This system should run on any Unix box. We haven't had time to do
21:37:46 <ehird> any non-Sun ports. Help or prodding welcome.
21:38:04 <ehird> it's like a time machine
21:39:09 <ehird> http://www.mag-heut.net/blackball/index.php?act=ST&f=9&t=1131&s=85d3bb14b8ff01e0ef75f19c7206463d
21:39:29 <ehird> I was wondering where it came from
21:40:13 <ehird> Hmm ... okay, so my message was quite obviously an April (or March)
21:40:14 <ehird> Fool's Day joke, wasn't it? Of course there is no such bug as a timing
21:40:15 <ehird> disaster in Enigma ... at least not yet! ;)
21:40:21 <ehird> ais523: i thought it was true :(
21:40:26 <ais523> so did I, to start with
21:40:32 <ais523> it was a pretty good april fools bug report
21:40:39 <ais523> especially as it had a plausible reason for being on april 1
21:40:39 <ehird> I guess because I'm the kind of person to implant that
21:41:09 <ehird> ais523: heh, seen enigma VI #10?
21:42:01 <ais523> I don't know how it's done, though
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21:44:43 <ais523> it struck me as relatively clever, but mildly annoying
21:45:05 <ais523> I'm not a fan of annoying levels
21:46:36 <ehird> ais523: what do you think of #35
21:46:43 <ais523> what do you think of oxyd #45?
21:46:45 <ais523> it's one of my favourites
21:47:03 <ehird> ais523: aieeeeeeeeee
21:47:15 <ais523> and #35, I haven't figured yet
21:47:17 -!- neldoreth has joined.
21:47:24 <ais523> although I suspect it involves an umbrella
21:48:28 <ais523> why the aieee, anyway?
21:48:33 <ais523> it's a nice clever intelligence level
21:48:50 <ais523> also, I love apparently more or less symmetrical puzzles with very asymmetrical solutions
21:49:03 <oerjan> ehird probably thinks it's acheived self-awareness
21:49:23 <lament> ehird achieved self-awareness?
21:49:44 <oerjan> no silly, the intelligence level
21:49:51 <ehird> http://improveverywhere.com/2009/04/01/best-funeral-ever/
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21:52:15 <AnMaster> <ais523> what do you think of oxyd #45? <-- "Letter bomb"?
21:52:23 <ehird> no the other oxyd 45
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21:53:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well it was a valid question because: #33: Oxyd 79
21:53:29 <AnMaster> so there could have been a Oxyd 45
21:53:41 <ais523> that's why I added the #
21:54:19 <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't aware that was the reason for the #
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21:58:35 <AnMaster> ais523, hm.. about that letter bomb... Knowledge 5 I see
21:58:43 <AnMaster> and I have no idea about how it would work
21:58:56 <AnMaster> what sort of thing in the game mechanics is it exploiting?
21:59:55 <ais523> explosions destroy items
22:00:09 <ais523> 5 is for unusual interactoins between multiple items
22:00:13 <ais523> and I don't think that one's used very often
22:00:34 <ais523> it is explained in a document on the level, though, so that isn't even a spoiler
22:01:53 <AnMaster> even so I don't see how this would help you reach any of the stones.
22:02:17 <ais523> well, wooden block bridging over abyss is a very well known interaction
22:02:42 <AnMaster> but afaik you can't destroy walls with explosions
22:02:56 <ais523> you can destroy black bomb dispensers with bomb explosions
22:10:12 <FireFly> "Categories: Joke languages | Implemented | Unimplemented | 2008"
22:10:51 <FireFly> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Schrodilang
22:11:24 <FireFly> Since the only interpreter is supposedly at the bottom of a sea, it's hard to tell if it exists or not
22:11:33 <ehird> FireFly: no, it's the radioactive decay thing
22:11:40 <ehird> the joke is that s/cat/implementation floppy/
22:11:55 <AnMaster> hm I would have expected oerjan behind that
22:12:04 <olsner> "it's hard to tell if it exists or not" indeed
22:12:10 <ehird> {{randomize|[[Category:Implemented]]|[[Category:Unimplemented]}}
22:12:10 <olsner> that's the whole point I think :P
22:12:11 <AnMaster> which is what the history tab says
22:12:33 <FireFly> That makes sense, isn't SchrΓΆdlingers Cat an experiment about something being in multiple states at the same time?
22:12:45 <FireFly> E.g. interpreted and not interpreted at the same time
22:12:57 <ehird> FireFly: go google it before I whack you with a cluebat
22:12:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think that would work, even if mediawiki had such a macro (does it?). Since it stores category list at edit time iirc.
22:13:54 <olsner> maybe you could add a blurb about the categorization of that page being in dispute since it is not possible to determine which state the language falls under
22:15:13 <ehird> 22:14 cristi_ceata: Cale: have you read "Yet another haskell tutorial"?
22:17:18 <ais523> was there a stupid reply to that?
22:17:35 <ehird> ais523: do you know who Cale is?
22:17:38 -!- Hiato has joined.
22:17:51 <ehird> ais523: he runs lambdabot :-)
22:18:03 <ais523> well, /has/ he read yaht?
22:18:11 <ehird> I think it's bloody well likely! :-P
22:18:13 <ais523> it's entirely plausible you could get good at Haskell some other way
22:18:25 <ehird> well, back then the only other tutorial was... gentle introduction?
22:18:27 <ais523> and never need to read a tutorial after that
22:18:31 <ehird> which is useful to, uh, hardcore ML programmers.
22:18:35 <ais523> there must have been at least two
22:18:38 <ais523> or the name is incorrect
22:18:51 <ehird> ais523: it was implied in a sense of "do you know <trivial thing from yaht>"
22:21:32 * oerjan thinks they should have sneaked in a c before that h
22:23:54 * oerjan notices FireFly just deserved a swat -----###
22:24:52 <ehird> ais523: haha, wow, #tunes is full of info atm
22:25:02 <ehird> they're disillusioned with how badly the server's been run...
22:25:05 <ehird> since BEFORE 2000!
22:25:42 <oerjan> and still no one's managed to get clog back?
22:25:58 <ehird> oerjan: he pinged hcf/nef, I told him it's not nef's responsibility any more, now he's pinging root
22:26:07 <ehird> who I guess is farΓ© or someone
22:26:24 <ehird> and I suppose he'll tell us to stop being collectivist pigs and capatalize a server
22:28:06 <ehird> 22:27 BrianRice: TUNES really doesn't matter as an OS, anyway. not without the higher level bits which require heavy duty CS research (which is slowly coming together)v
22:28:47 <ais523> the operating system needs heavy duty CS research before they can write it?
22:29:01 <ehird> ais523: very, very dissatisfied.
22:29:22 <ehird> also, they were doing the high level language first
22:29:24 <ehird> then a low level language
22:29:32 <ehird> it was very, very comprehensive.
22:29:33 * oerjan wonders where the pun is
22:29:50 <ehird> By 2005 it had become clear that we must leverage mainstream software to make TUNES a reality, imperfectly at first, so that we might benefit from immediate practical applications and real-world experience. A few years later, armed with better tools and experience, we can write a new compiler and operating system within TUNES, replacing the messy underpinnings of our imperfect prototype with a clean, manageable infrastructure that supports our highest as
22:29:52 <ehird> pirations. At least that's the plan!
22:30:03 <ehird> It's 2008 now. If a few dedidated hackers can find the time and money to put some sustained effort into it, we could have a working prototype by 2010, with widespread use by 2015 or 2020.
22:30:05 <ais523> do we even know what the OS is going to be like?
22:30:12 <ehird> ais523: no, they haven't decided yet.
22:30:18 <ehird> s/they/we/; it's a community projet
22:30:23 <ehird> ais523: there ARE documents
22:30:48 <ehird> ais523: lemme find the most explanatory ones
22:30:58 <ehird> oh, here's one from david madore of unlambda fam
22:30:59 <ehird> http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/tunes.html
22:31:19 <ehird> lemme find Fare's original
22:31:25 <ais523> I wonder if tunes were thinking about basing it on an esolang?
22:31:31 <ais523> maybe that's why they were logging us
22:31:40 <ehird> ais523: http://tunes.org/new/Review/cddb.html
22:31:58 <oerjan> "But though Far. is very good at explaining things orally (my humble opinion, of course), nothing he says is comprehensible when he starts writing things down (my humble opinion again, of course)." :D
22:32:21 <ehird> well http://tunes.org/new/Review/cddb.html is quite readable
22:34:00 <ehird> this conversation is fun
22:34:04 <ehird> we're all calling farΓ© kooks
22:37:01 <GregorR> Heh, somebody dug up Shrodilang.
22:37:19 <ais523> GregorR: we will dissect you and extract knowledge of the language from your brain
22:38:09 <ehird> talking to brian rice and slava pestov at once is rather fun.
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22:38:54 <GregorR> Talking to brain rice and slavic pasta at once is rather fun.
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22:51:45 <FireFly> <insert combo breaker meme here>
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22:52:36 <FireFly> Just make an Ook with So's
22:52:55 <FireFly> And you can program while you chat, in real meme style
22:53:01 <GregorR> Sh! You'll wake the Oomoo!
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23:40:52 <GreaseMonkey> hmm... it'd be cool having a lang which is good for team-coding
23:41:39 <GreaseMonkey> well, it'd be cool having a lang with BASIC line numbering
23:44:22 <GregorR> By what stretch of the imagination is line-numbering good for team coding?
23:45:55 <lament> real number line numbering!
23:47:15 <GregorR> Preferably only numbers between 0 and 1, upper-exclusive.
23:55:52 <ehird> max msp is... a graph language. cool.
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08:07:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I got a reply on one of the mails to abuse@, automated one though, but saying "All notifications will be investigated within 1 business day"
08:27:42 <Ilari> AnMaster: BTW, sometimes when spamming the real sender isn't the one that has the srcIP (but srcIP still points to zombie under spammer control). As result system with 56k modem can appear to send at multi-megabit speeds...
08:28:28 <AnMaster> Ilari, I know about drones, but then the isp should make the user fix it
08:28:41 <AnMaster> and it was irc spam bots, so no forged senders.
08:29:30 <AnMaster> Ilari, anyway I'm pretty sure it was automated infected computers even.
08:29:34 <Ilari> AnMaster: OTOH, with IRC, one doesn't need lots of bandwidth for spamming.
08:30:00 <AnMaster> Ilari, indeed, and the auto reply was for the registrar of the domain that was spammed (which was used to host a trojan download)
08:31:11 <AnMaster> Ilari, so don't think the exact same rules apply there.
08:32:20 <Ilari> AnMaster: Guessing TCP/IP seqno's is already quite hard in modern systems.
08:33:19 <AnMaster> Ilari, that would prevent two way communication though?
08:33:43 <AnMaster> Ilari, and irc server is setup such that it needs a PONG reply from the client before accepting connection
08:34:07 <AnMaster> Ilari, oh btw one of the spambots connected from an ip which whois claimed belonged to Cogent's main office.
08:34:48 <Ilari> AnMaster: The same tricks that are sometimes used to send spam appearing to come from zombies presumably would work. But why go to that trouble as you can't use the bandwidth.
08:35:33 <AnMaster> Ilari, most likely infected computers were used. A botnet.
08:35:50 <AnMaster> considering the great number of different ips and isps
08:35:51 <Ilari> AnMaster: I say Infected computers definitely involved.
08:36:27 <AnMaster> just wonder what that signifies
08:39:45 <Ilari> For DOS attacks, some lecturer once (yeas ago) said that TCP/IP has no protection against fradulently sent ACKs. Send those and watch target use massive amounts of upstream...
08:40:45 <AnMaster> Ilari, and it wasn't DOS, just "<bot> Download <random well known windows software> at http://trojans.are.us/"
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08:40:54 <AnMaster> well not that url, but lots of random ones
08:41:08 <Ilari> AnMaster: And that fake-ACK attack doesn't work against ircd.
08:41:25 <AnMaster> Ilari, it requires confirmation after all
08:41:48 <Ilari> AnMaster: Would probably work nicely against httpd.
08:42:08 <AnMaster> yes but it wouldn't result in the observed behaviour in this case either.
08:42:44 <Ilari> AnMaster: Yeah, in this case, its spim bots involved, sending messages.
08:45:25 <Ilari> The reason why it won't work agaist ircd is that link is in effect rate-limited by the server.
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08:56:11 <ais523> note to #esotericers: I'm in the middle of a distro upgrade atm
08:56:19 <ais523> so if I suddenly disappear, you know what's happened
09:06:16 <ais523> Ubuntu from Intrepid to Jaunty beta-and-almost-release-candidate
09:06:18 <AnMaster> ais523, why would distro upgrade cause that?
09:06:33 <ais523> this is Ubuntu I'm distro upgrading, not Debian
09:06:44 <AnMaster> <insert rolling release is better comment here>
09:06:46 <ais523> it has a tendency to go wrong
09:06:55 <ais523> although each time, it's been a trivial fix
09:07:00 <ais523> and two out of three times has been my fauly
09:07:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I had debian upgrades go wrong on me too
09:07:16 <AnMaster> which is why I prefer rolling release
09:07:24 <AnMaster> because upgrades usually just work then
09:07:58 <ais523> well, Debian does a distro upgrade by temporarily switching to rolling release, in effect
09:10:59 <AnMaster> ais523, well I was trying to do old stable -> stable and it wanted to remove glibc, apt-get and aptitude
09:11:19 <ais523> well, this distro upgrade wants to install Flash
09:11:23 <ais523> presumably it's in a recommends somewhere
09:11:29 <ais523> but I'm just going to uninstall it again afterwards
09:11:59 <ais523> apt is like Gnome, IMO
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09:12:15 <ais523> it does a lot behind the scenes, but the actual UI is ridiculously simple and easy to use
09:12:17 <AnMaster> well apt or aptituide or dpkg or whatever
09:12:21 <ais523> I can understand why someone like you wouldn't like it
09:12:29 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't do what I want
09:12:38 <AnMaster> makes the user feel he/she isn't in control
09:12:54 <ais523> oh, I feel in control of it
09:13:08 <AnMaster> maybe it is just a question of how much you used it
09:13:17 <AnMaster> but I never felt like that with any other package manager
09:13:24 <AnMaster> not even rpm back on old old red hat
09:13:43 <AnMaster> never used yum, so that might be worse
09:14:04 <AnMaster> and of course there was rpm hell
09:14:22 <Ilari> Lots of behind the scenes? Like enough logic to solve a sudoku? :-)
09:14:26 <ais523> the general organisation of the debian package management structure is that dpkg works at packet level
09:14:36 <ais523> Ilari: has someone written a sudoku solver in apt?
09:14:42 <ais523> and that apt works at repo level
09:14:58 <ais523> I'm not all that surprised, I even worked out how to explain INTERCAL version numbering to it
09:15:13 <AnMaster> ais523, that is quite a feat yes
09:15:24 <ais523> including negative components and everything
09:15:47 <Ilari> From that, one can conclude that question wheither some package has satisfiable dependencies is NP-complete.... :-)
09:16:02 <AnMaster> ais523, hm didn't you use <number>:<real version> or something?
09:16:15 <ais523> that's only for major and minor releases
09:16:21 <ais523> for betas it's more fun
09:16:31 <AnMaster> ais523, how did you explain that then
09:16:51 <ais523> IIRC, it would be 29:0.~8.0.-2.0.29
09:16:55 <ais523> maybe with an extra char in there
09:17:00 <AnMaster> ais523, and what would that mean
09:17:09 <ais523> you have to convert the version number from sign-magnitude to ten's complement
09:17:09 <lifthrasiir> (iirc CLC-INTERCAL had a version of 1.-xx.-yy.-z...)
09:17:11 <ais523> for it to work properly
09:17:54 <AnMaster> what about versions with letters in them. Like: R12B-4
09:18:16 <AnMaster> since it is actually a simple format
09:18:30 <ais523> although it assumes that the letters are meant to go in alphabetical order unless you give it extra hints
09:18:35 <ais523> using tildes, normally, they have a special meaning
09:18:48 <AnMaster> ais523, actually R isn't ever changed I think.
09:19:16 <AnMaster> ais523, nor do I think B is changed except for pre-releases which are A, but it used to use C too
09:19:22 <ais523> "1:1.0~4pre1.-94.-2-2"
09:19:31 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL's version number in Debian stable
09:19:32 <AnMaster> what do the ~ mean there though
09:19:53 <ais523> think of ~ as coming before the null string in alphabetical order
09:20:17 <ais523> as in, "ab~c" < "ab" < "ab.c"
09:30:07 <fizzie> Ooh, VirtualBox people seem to have released a 2.2.0 not long ago (well, a bit over a week) which adds, among other things, hw-accelerated OpenGL for Linux and Solaris guests (and not just Windows, like it used to be). Not that it probably works very well, but still.
09:30:32 <ais523> so now we can play our Linux games in Windows at decent speeds!
09:30:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that require special CPU support?
09:31:13 <ais523> "Tags: Software Development: Compiler, Interpreter, Games and Amusement: Toy or Gimmick, User Interface: Command Line, Role: Program, Scope: Utility, Works with: Source Code"
09:31:25 <fizzie> I don't see why it should; but I guess in general it's pretty slow without hardware virtualization supports.
09:31:53 <ais523> AnMaster: tags on clc-intercal in Debian stable
09:32:50 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what about our Solaris games?
09:33:31 <AnMaster> err wait, those would be in java anyway so that would be pointless.
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10:10:16 <ais523> ok, dpkg just replaced itself, this is definitely really quite far past the point of no return
10:12:29 <Ilari> Hope some post-install script doesn't decide to error out, causing the whole process to error out, without setting up the packages... And that package can't be removed because apt-get refuses to work. And the repair tries to run that script and fails...
10:13:01 <Ilari> Had that happen to me (in rolling update)...
10:13:24 <ais523> Ilari: I've had (self-inflicted) similar problems in dist-upgrades before
10:13:42 <ais523> but dpkg is smart enough to be able to fix a mess like that all by itself, without needing any helper scripts or repo knowledge or anything
10:14:01 <ais523> having a borked dpkg might be problematic, I assume you'd have to download a new one as a tarball and run it manually
10:15:35 <Ilari> IIRC, the problem was broken package script in such place that it would cause dirty abort from both apt-get and repair process.
10:18:02 <Ilari> Don't remember what I did, but eventually I got that script to run so I could fix things.
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10:39:06 <AnMaster> Ilari, um wouldn't most distros allow a simple restore?
10:39:39 <Ilari> AnMaster: It tried to allow restore. But that restore ran the failing script and expected it to succeed.
10:39:50 <AnMaster> I mean, for the package manager on gentoo I usually do quickpkg before upgrading, resulting in a tarball of the old version which I could extract manually in worst case.
10:40:05 <AnMaster> sure it would need some cleaning up after, but it would work
10:40:13 <AnMaster> not that I ever needed to use that
10:40:36 <AnMaster> I'm surprised the same doesn't exist for other distros
10:41:44 <Ilari> Bit worse was when one kernel image was bad in way that made it unbootable. Luckily I had backup kernel image (earlier version) and could downgrade. Currently this comp has something like 5 kernel images available...
10:42:22 <ais523> this computer keeps something like the last 5 kernel images available too
10:42:29 <AnMaster> well I always build and install kernel manually and have a fallback kernel always
10:42:50 <AnMaster> but even for distro kernels I would expect one or two old versions available at all points of time
10:44:09 <AnMaster> personally I just keep two old kernels available, previous one and previous version. With that I mean for example 2.6.26.whatever and 2.6.27.2 when current kernel is 2.6.27.3
10:44:11 <Ilari> 2 23s, 2 26s and a 29.
10:44:32 <AnMaster> I save all the .configs though
10:45:02 * AnMaster has .config files dating back from 2.6.9 or something like that around still
10:46:56 <AnMaster> anyway: are you seriously suggesting some distros do not have facilities for creating a manually extractable tarball of the currently installed version of a package?
10:49:12 <ais523> I know debian has one, it's called cp
10:52:24 <AnMaster> ais523, much more work for packages with many files in many places
10:52:25 <ais523> a .deb is just a .tgz with an extra directory inside it, which you can ignore
10:53:15 <ais523> it's in /var/cache unless you've cleared it out
10:53:35 <AnMaster> well, wasted space most of the time
10:53:39 <fizzie> Normally aptitude keeps the .debs, and even "aptitude autoclean" only cleans out non-installed packages. Though "aptitude clean" clears the whole cache, I guess.
10:54:08 <AnMaster> Personally I only bother to run quickpkg before upgrading important packages such as package manager, glibc, coreutils, bash and so on
10:54:21 <AnMaster> on and python too of course, since the package manager is written in that on gentoo
10:54:42 <AnMaster> and yes python upgrades tend to work painlessly too
10:54:55 <fizzie> aptitude autoclean: "Freed 2644MB of disk space". Don't seem to run that one very often.
10:55:02 <AnMaster> in fact I never had issues with upgrades on any rolling release system
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11:25:51 <AnMaster> interesting, seems the freebsd bootloader is partly FORTH based...
11:25:59 <AnMaster> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=loader&sektion=8
11:26:52 <ais523> I just don't have a comment on it
11:28:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, about sigsegv handling in jitfunge: how is it done? And/Or where are docs?
11:29:02 <AnMaster> I did look in /usr/src/linux/Documentation/ but couldn't find anything related
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11:34:48 <fizzie> Uh... I'm not sure I've seen any docs. I did it with guesswork.
11:37:30 <fizzie> Basically I just register a SIGSEGV handler with sigaction + SA_SIGINFO in the sa_flags. Then the signal handler has the prototype "void handler(int sig, siginfo_t *info, void *context);" ... now here info->si_addr is the (virtual) address of the fault, and the context argument you can cast into a "ucontext_t*" type pointer from <ucontext.h>.
11:37:48 <fizzie> That's actually somewhat documented.
11:38:19 <fizzie> "If SA_SIGINFO is specified in sa_flags, -- receives the signal number as its first argument, a pointer to a siginfo_t as its second argument and a pointer to a ucontext_t (cast to void *) as its third argument." says my sigaction(2) man page.
11:39:20 <fizzie> On Linux the ucontext_t has a uc_mcontext member (of type mcontext_t) which has the machine registers and such.
11:39:26 <fizzie> At this point it goes very hardware-specific.
11:40:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you use setcontext() or such after fixing the values? or just do the jump manually?
11:40:24 <fizzie> I just read the stuff from <sys/ucontext.h>... there's symbolic names for the general-purpose registers in uc_mcontext.gregs[] array.
11:41:10 <AnMaster> it seems POSIX.1-2008 removed setcontext() hm
11:41:23 <AnMaster> well getcontext() and so on too
11:41:28 <fizzie> I just call setcontext() on the provided cast-to-ucontext_t* context, after fixing some of the register values in there (like EIP to to instruction after the fault and so on).
11:41:30 <AnMaster> that whole family of functions in fact
11:41:58 <fizzie> Hm. Are there any substitutes? And what do they say of the sigaction SA_SIGINFO-handler's third-argument in posix-2008?
11:42:33 <AnMaster> you could download the pdf yourself but let me look
11:43:33 <fizzie> Oh, it's available? I've just been reading my 1003.1-2001 PDF-copy.
11:43:35 <AnMaster> um it mentions ucontext_t there
11:44:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes you need to sign up (free) to the austin group mailing list, then opt out of the mailing list part of it, then download it. Registrations take a day or two to be processed iirc.
11:44:50 <fizzie> Well, I'll maybe try that at some point.
11:47:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok this is strange: SA_SIGINFO mentions ucontext_t, but the ucontext stuff is otherwise missing as far as I can see
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13:20:42 <Gracenotes> I should be taking a shower .. but I sit watching Pokemon o:
13:22:35 <ais523> well, I'm kind-of stuck atm
13:22:44 <ais523> in a distro update, I can't really do anything but websurf and chat on IRC
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13:29:02 <ais523> incidentally, this channel seems rather empty atm...
13:29:26 <ais523> this distro update is almost complete, anyway
13:29:30 * oerjan hugs kerlo too to be fair
13:29:33 <ais523> so I'll be rebooting soon and hoping the computer still works
13:31:55 <oerjan> ais523: nice to have known you
13:32:40 <ais523> this has never gone smoothly before, I think, but two times out of three when it failed before it was my fault
13:32:42 <oerjan> also, http://xkcd.com/349/
13:32:44 <ais523> and in each case, I figured out how to fix it
13:33:08 <ais523> don't paste links while I'm updating, I have an urge to click on them and that doesn't work
13:33:14 <ais523> I have to copy-and-paste into the browser
13:33:48 <ais523> also, I don't get how installing BSD would cause you to be attacked by sharks
13:33:49 <oerjan> well, it's a highly relevant link
13:34:03 <oerjan> ais523: let's hope you don't find out
13:34:16 <ais523> good thing I'm not installing BSD, then, I suppose
13:35:25 <oerjan> also, http://blag.xkcd.com/2009/03/27/a-brief-pair-of-notes/
13:36:41 <ais523> rendering a system unbootable while trying to change a setting in a webform is pretty impressive...
13:39:04 <ais523> ah, there's an explanation
13:39:15 <ais523> and really, he rendered the system unbootable by messing up the repository lines
13:39:31 <ais523> that was just a delayed-action unbootable-rendering, which caught up with him when he tried to change the setting
13:40:35 <oerjan> your awesome reasoning powers won't save you when murphy's law hits!
13:43:41 <ais523> ok, it just hit the libc trigger
13:43:52 <ais523> things are going to get very interesting very soon
13:44:09 <ais523> (libc trigger = the last thing in most large package replacements, although this one was so big it had other triggers to process too...)
13:47:56 <ais523> ok, I'm into very likely breakage at any moment mode now
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15:00:11 <GregorR> breakage = the consumption of breakfast.
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15:27:53 <AnMaster> I just found something amusing in a manual
15:28:23 <AnMaster> the manual is for an electrical piano, and as usual there is a caution section at the start, with the normal "avoid liquids" and so on
15:28:30 <AnMaster> there is also some odd stuff in it
15:28:36 <AnMaster> like: "Do not stand on this device"
15:28:53 <ais523> oh, all sorts of manuals have that sort of thing in
15:29:12 <ais523> there was a rather silly TV show in the UK which tried to find things that the manual didn't disallow, but nevertheless destroyed the device
15:29:16 <ais523> such as dropping it 100 feet
15:29:41 <AnMaster> I think "Do not drop or subject to strong impact" covers that
15:30:14 <ais523> most of them involved explosions IIRC
15:30:39 <ais523> I think this was a british attempt to emulate it
15:30:52 <AnMaster> ais523, but seriously, would anyone outside a silly TV show even consider standing on an electrical piano?
15:31:08 <ais523> I can sort of imagine how it might happen
15:31:56 <ais523> they wanted to reach a higher place and needed something to stand on?
15:32:15 <ais523> not everyone, especially children, don't realise that not everything supports their weight
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15:32:34 <AnMaster> ais523, that assumes a high stupidity level thoug
15:32:48 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, manuals generally do
15:33:00 <AnMaster> even more than standing on a office chair with wheels
15:33:03 <ais523> sometimes you seem to underestimate the levels of stupidity some people can reach...
15:33:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well, considering the rest of the manual seems to assume a rather non-stupid person...
15:33:29 <oerjan> oh i saw this link in a reddit comment yesterday...
15:34:43 <oerjan> http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~leeey/stupidity/basic.htm
15:34:47 <AnMaster> ais523, actually some of those warnings are interesting, like "always turn down volume control to zero before turning the device on/off to avoid damaging the speakers"
15:35:03 <ais523> does anyone ever obey them?
15:35:19 <AnMaster> ais523, which are you referring to?
15:35:25 <ais523> AnMaster: your warnings
15:35:38 <ais523> I mean, for instance, would you store a laptop in a fridge at 40% battery charge?
15:36:07 <AnMaster> ais523, that would damage the harddrive. If you took the battery out though it would be a good way for long time storage as far as I understood
15:36:30 <AnMaster> but I usually use devices most of the time so that thing never came up
15:36:37 * oerjan recalls some devices where the volume control is also the off button, avoiding the problem
15:37:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, wouldn't work in this case. Since you can turn another switch to turn off internal speakers and use external output (either headphone connection or line-out connection thingy with separate left/right connectors)
15:38:31 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:39:02 <oerjan> hm that would be awkward, although you _could_ do it with one button - make the off setting midway between volumes for either case
15:39:13 <oerjan> won't work for more than two speaker options though
15:39:25 <ais523> just use a multidimensional switch, then
15:39:49 <ais523> imagine a switch which went left, right, and up
15:39:54 <AnMaster> well there is a balance switch for that
15:39:56 -!- ehird has left (?).
15:40:09 <ais523> bye ehird? I didn't even realise you were here...
15:44:51 <AnMaster> ais523, hm about the "do not stand" one, I wonder to what degree that applies to the pedal that was included with this electric piano...
15:45:37 -!- ais523 has quit ("lunch").
15:48:55 -!- ehird has joined.
15:49:00 <ehird> 01:12:29 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't do what I want
15:49:02 <ehird> 01:12:38 <AnMaster> makes the user feel he/she isn't in control
15:49:06 <ehird> dpkg is a very low level tool
15:50:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
15:50:11 <ehird> 01:30:32 <ais523> so now we can play our Linux games in Windows at decent speeds!
15:50:15 <ehird> 01:30:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that require special CPU support?
15:50:20 <ehird> No. GPU support. :P
15:50:41 <ehird> 01:31:53 <ais523> AnMaster: tags on clc-intercal in Debian stable
15:50:41 <ehird> 01:32:50 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what about our Solaris games?
15:50:42 <ehird> 01:33:31 <AnMaster> err wait, those would be in java anyway so that would be pointless.
15:50:48 <ehird> ITT: stunning ignorance of solaris
15:51:01 <ehird> 02:13:01 <Ilari> Had that happen to me (in rolling update)...
15:51:14 <ehird> "(in rolling update)", aka anti-AnMaster-troll spray
15:51:44 <ehird> 02:39:50 <AnMaster> I mean, for the package manager on gentoo I usually do quickpkg before upgrading, resulting in a tarball of the old version which I could extract manually in worst case.
15:51:45 <ehird> 02:40:05 <AnMaster> sure it would need some cleaning up after, but it would work
15:51:47 <ehird> 02:40:13 <AnMaster> not that I ever needed to use that
15:53:02 <ehird> 02:54:55 <fizzie> aptitude autoclean: "Freed 2644MB of disk space". Don't seem to run that one very often.
15:53:11 -!- neldoret1 has joined.
15:53:12 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving").
15:53:17 <ehird> It occurs to me that that is probably bad for SSDs.
15:53:20 <ehird> storing them, I mean
15:54:27 <ehird> 03:41:10 <AnMaster> it seems POSIX.1-2008 removed setcontext() hm
15:54:27 <ehird> 03:41:23 <AnMaster> well getcontext() and so on too
15:55:14 <ehird> {get,set}context were *almost* continuations.
15:55:16 <AnMaster> ehird, there are still references to them in sigaction()
15:57:07 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/350/ β I'd like to note that one day I will set this up.
15:58:03 <ehird> The current one is #569.
15:58:26 <AnMaster> how would you rate the last strip btw?
15:58:34 <ehird> It was not particularly funny.
16:00:00 <AnMaster> ehird, far from the worst though
16:00:12 <ehird> This is probably my favourite xkcd comic: http://xkcd.com/24/ just because it's so unlike all the others.
16:05:13 <ehird> 1) Dvorak typists: Iβm sorry if the paper I relied on has some potential flaws. If you want to share your extensive rants on the merits of various keyboard layouts, send them to me at doctorow@boingboing.net and Iβll be sure to read them over carefully.
16:05:43 <ehird> (The worst part was, everyone kept saying βoh yeah β thereβs a comic about that; have you read it?β)
16:05:47 <ehird> bet he gets that all the time
16:06:34 <ehird> http://blag.xkcd.com/2009/03/27/a-brief-pair-of-notes/comment-page-3/#comment-26267 β Hey, it's coppro.
16:06:40 <ehird> Is it that coppro? Probably.
16:11:00 <ehird> "Iβll just add this anecdote (minus 16) to my list of reasons to never use Ubuntu. "
16:11:05 <ehird> How to miss the point, part 9999.
16:11:12 <ehird> "Ubuntu sucks because you can add debian repos and break your system"
16:12:29 <ehird> 07:28:24 <AnMaster> but
16:12:29 <ehird> 07:28:30 <AnMaster> there is also some odd stuff in it
16:12:30 <ehird> 07:28:36 <AnMaster> like: "Do not stand on this device"
16:12:38 <ehird> old ipod shuffle site had "Do not eat iPod touch."
16:12:42 <ehird> Do not eat iPod shuffle
16:12:50 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2005/01/12/the-ipod-shuffle-do-not-eat-in-the-us-or-chew-in-the-uk/
16:13:21 <ehird> 07:29:12 <ais523> there was a rather silly TV show in the UK which tried to find things that the manual didn't disallow, but nevertheless destroyed the device
16:13:33 -!- M0ny has joined.
16:13:39 <ehird> 07:30:52 <AnMaster> ais523, but seriously, would anyone outside a silly TV show even consider standing on an electrical piano?
16:14:01 <ehird> 07:32:15 <ais523> not everyone, especially children, don't realise that not everything supports their weight
16:14:02 <ehird> 07:32:34 <AnMaster> ais523, that assumes a high stupidity level thoug
16:14:05 <ehird> children aren't stupid
16:14:59 <ehird> "The First Basic Law prevents me from attributing a specific numerical value to the fraction of stupid people within the total population: any numerical estimate would turn out to be an underestimate. "
16:15:05 <ehird> *universe explodes*
16:15:42 <ehird> 19:01:13 --- join: clog (n=nef@bespin.org) joined #tunes
16:15:43 <ehird> 19:01:13 --- names: list (clog elias` slava ehird cpfr matthewf levitation[A] BrianRice)
16:15:44 <ehird> 19:20:12 --- join: Fare (n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #tunes
16:15:46 <ehird> 19:27:31 <BrianRice> thank you, Fare
16:15:48 <ehird> 19:27:53 <Fare> sorry for the disruption
16:15:50 <ehird> 19:27:57 <Fare> a problem with screen
16:15:52 <ehird> 19:28:00 <BrianRice> huh
16:15:54 <ehird> 19:28:25 <Fare> /var/run/screen had the wrong group, etc. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=471763 causing clog to not start properly
16:17:36 <ehird> 07:36:07 <AnMaster> ais523, that would damage the harddrive. If you took the battery out though it would be a good way for long time storage as far as I understood
16:17:41 <ehird> I think the ice would fuck with it.
16:17:50 <ehird> Try and cryopreserve it :P
16:19:39 <ehird> 07:40:09 <ais523> bye ehird? I didn't even realise you were here...
16:19:42 <ehird> my client parts on startup
16:19:47 <ehird> then joins when the bouncer stops logfucking it
16:23:54 <AnMaster> ehird, err, can't you tell your client not to part the channel even if client sends part, znc call this feature sticky channels, it is rather useful in case of misclicks/typos.
16:24:08 <AnMaster> but sounds like it could be useful for this too
16:24:10 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't really care, as I won't be using this client soon
16:24:22 <ehird> on account of it not running on linux
16:24:29 <ehird> (where I'll probably use xchat-gnome (!= xchat))
16:25:14 <ehird> (for the unknowing: xchat-gnome is an xchat frontend that uses gnome libs and generally sucks less)
16:30:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("snq!+ue").
16:34:40 <ehird> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20090416.gif
16:35:27 -!- pikhq has joined.
16:42:05 <oklopol> wait the numerous statistics i've seen about how dvorak is better than qwerty are all urban legends?
16:42:24 <ehird> xkcd said okay, okay I was wrong a bit in his blahg.
16:42:50 <ehird> also the immortality thing is a crock of shit, you don't need immortality in 80 yrs
16:42:58 <ehird> you just need life extension in 80 years, so on until immortality
16:43:14 <ehird> and I think "we will be able to live longer within 80 years" as a prediction is almost certain
16:44:28 <oklopol> you mean xkcd is not only funny, it's become stupid too
16:44:34 -!- MizardX has joined.
16:44:53 <oklopol> please insert not, seems that was a bit too hard for me.
16:53:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> children aren't stupid <ehird> just naive <-- indeed, but the product was certainly not aimed at small children. As reading context would have shown
16:53:50 <ehird> I never said small children
16:56:02 <oklopol> my experience is they're pretty stupid too :|
16:56:26 <ehird> oklopol: I guess you have to have been one recently :P
16:58:09 <ehird> i hate trackballss..
16:58:15 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?").
17:03:31 <ehird> "The most common font reported for Unix family systems is the cursive font URW Chancery L at 95% frequency. Second position is held by the sans serif URW Gothic L, then DejaVu Sans Mono followed by serif font Century Schoolbook L. The monospace font Nimbus Mono L and complete the top 5 most common Linux fonts at 93% frequency."
17:03:35 <ehird> URW CHANCERY L FUCK YEAH
17:04:30 <ehird> http://www.codestyle.org/css/font-family/sampler-UnixResults.shtml
17:04:40 <Deewiant> Haven't even heard of those fonts, apart from DejaVu :-P
17:04:47 <Deewiant> But then I'm not much of a font person
17:04:50 <pikhq> I'm somewhat fond of DejaVu *, myself.
17:05:16 <ehird> I've used the Nimbus family; quite nice, e.g. Nimbus Sans makes a nice print font. DejaVu can be made to look nice.
17:05:22 <Deewiant> DejaVu being ahead of Bitstream Vera is a bit of a surprise, I thought it wasn't as widespread
17:05:23 <ehird> The rest are obscure rubbish :-P
17:05:35 <ehird> Deewiant: ubuntu ships with just dejavu, I think.
17:05:55 <Deewiant> I don't even have URW Chancery L installed
17:05:56 <ehird> Helvetica @ 50% is more than I would have thought
17:06:05 <AnMaster> ehird, about font, most systems have URW yes, but most systems actually use Bitstream Vera and/or Dejavu
17:06:06 <pikhq> DejaVu is libre, so just about every distro has it.
17:06:07 <Deewiant> Maybe it's another Ubuntu-default :-P
17:06:08 <ehird> that requires the dedication to pirate it from a windows version or convert a mac one :-P
17:06:38 <pikhq> And URW is installed because, well, it's been on Unix since the invention of X11. ;)
17:06:42 <ehird> It would be nice if Helvetica was libre. How dead is its maker, I wonder?
17:06:42 <Deewiant> I have URW Gothic but not URW Chancery
17:06:54 <ehird> Max Miedinger (1910-12-24 - 1980-03-08
17:07:00 <ehird> OK, couple of decades to go.
17:07:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes and it is like Bitstream Vera but supports more symbols
17:07:16 <ehird> Although, really, it's the font that's copyrighted, I imagine.
17:07:30 <ehird> 17:07 AnMaster: pikhq, yes and it is like Bitstream Vera but supports more symbols
17:07:33 <ehird> I am fairly sure pikhq knows this.
17:08:24 <ehird> AnMaster: You should be like zzo38 and talk like this then. Or not talk like zzo38 if you don't want to.
17:08:26 * AnMaster wonders if anyone got the reference
17:08:39 <ehird> HEY GUYS LOOK AT ME, I MADE AN OBSCURE REFERENCE
17:08:45 <ehird> HA, I AM MORE INDIE THAN THOU!
17:08:52 <Deewiant> Meh, I want teh URW cursive font
17:09:05 <ehird> http://research.cs.queensu.ca/Parallel/projects.html#Current β Someone translate this for me please.
17:09:06 <AnMaster> ehird, it wasn't very obscure in a channel like this.
17:09:11 <Deewiant> ehird: Andale Mono is twice there, wtf?
17:09:27 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8cz51/alan_turing_was_wrong/c08wbdl
17:09:30 <AnMaster> I'm sure ais would get the reference
17:11:35 <ehird> As he walked into Columbine High School the morning of the massacre Eric Harris' T-shirt read: Natural Selection.[1] According to CNN, Harris wrote the following before the massacre: "Sometime in April [of 1999] me and V will get revenge and will kick natural selection up a few notches."[2] Eric Harris, who was a racist, had adulation for the evolutionary racist Adolph Hitler and on his website were four Hiel [sic] Hitlers.[3][4]
17:11:39 <ehird> β http://www.conservapedia.com/Evolution
17:11:43 <ehird> How I love Conservapedia.
17:12:08 <Slereah> Conservapedia on evolution isn't fun, ehird
17:12:21 <ehird> Slereah: But it's amusing.
17:12:44 <pikhq> Conservapedia was really fun when it had relativity deniers.
17:13:03 <ehird> pikhq: You mean quantum physicists? :P
17:13:36 <pikhq> Quantum physicists don't deny that it's a decent model at the scales Einstein could observe.
17:13:46 * ehird fiddles with MaxMSP
17:13:52 <pikhq> Conservapedia denied that.
17:14:13 <Slereah> What I love about Conservapedia is when it gets crazy on unrelated matters
17:16:15 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:16:47 <ehird> couldn't wait for the real thing? :P
17:17:06 <ais523> I was planning to get rc1, on the basis that it's likely to be the same as the finished version
17:17:15 <ais523> but the beta didn't have any known bugs that affected me
17:17:25 <ais523> which implies that any bugs in it that do affect me will be in rc1 too
17:17:58 <ehird> I'm waiting for the full release so I can get a nice CD of it.
17:19:02 <ehird> Some of the packages could not be retrieved from the server(s).
17:19:06 <ehird> Do you want to continue, ignoring these packages?
17:19:21 <ais523> network trouble? did you choose a mirror that didn't have all the packages/
17:20:00 <ehird> I'm installing it via Install/Remove
17:20:05 <ais523> anyway, if you choose no, nothing will be installed, if you choose yes, only the bits that can will be installed
17:20:13 <ais523> and my guess is it has dependencies on non-FLOSS stuff
17:20:26 <ais523> which therefore won't be installed unless you enable the non-FLOSS repos
17:20:37 <ehird> it could do with a better error
17:22:18 <ehird> ais523: ok, this is not goo
17:22:45 <ehird> Failed to fetch http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/f/ffmpeg-debian/libavdevice52_0.svn20090303-1ubuntu4_i386.deb
17:22:57 <ehird> then libavfilter and some ffmpeg stuff
17:23:08 <ais523> hmm... I know some mirrors don't have all packages
17:23:11 <ais523> but I'd expect that one to
17:23:21 <ehird> and ffmpeg isn't exactly OBSCURE.
17:24:11 <ehird> this is an issue with my system
17:24:30 <ehird> at least I hope so
17:24:30 <AnMaster> check if there is another version at http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/f/ffmpeg-debian/
17:24:43 <ehird> there there is but it doesn't depend on that version
17:24:58 <ehird> libavfilter0_0.svn20090303-1ubuntu6_i386.deb11-Apr-2009 01:04 43K
17:25:04 <ehird> ais523: what's the diff?
17:25:22 <ais523> that's the revision number of the Ubuntu-specific patches
17:25:25 <ais523> so basically, a different patchlevel
17:25:32 <ehird> ais523: so what should I do?
17:25:40 <AnMaster> ehird, try updating the package index or whatever ubuntu use
17:25:51 <ais523> my guess is that with all the rush to get the release out, they forgot to synch the index with the actual packages
17:25:59 <ehird> ais523: this is the beta, indeed.
17:26:28 * ehird $ sudo apt-get update
17:26:51 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:27:43 <ehird> Max has an actual event called "bang"
17:28:04 <ehird> I love this language
17:28:17 <ehird> ais523: you know how I said I wanted a graph language?
17:28:26 <ehird> max is one of them
17:28:32 <ehird> almost exactly as I imagined
17:28:57 <ehird> http://imgur.com/MRVIK.png
17:29:02 <ehird> that plays random notes on a piano
17:29:18 <ehird> the thing at the top is a toggle, it emits either on or off, pretty much
17:29:30 <ehird> metro 250 is a (silent) metronome with 250ms delay, I think
17:29:36 <ehird> random 128 is a random number from 0 to 128
17:29:45 <ehird> the three inputs of makenote are pitch velocity and duration
17:30:04 <ehird> and the first two inputs (and two outputs of makenote) of noteout are pitch and velocity
17:30:07 <ais523> reminds me of 2d a bit
17:30:19 <ehird> (the last input is lets you control the midi device it outputs to)
17:30:45 <ehird> I made that by double clicking, selecting object and typing what I want (with autocompletion) then it grew the inputs/outputs
17:30:52 <ehird> and I double clicked and selected toggle for the top one
17:30:59 <ehird> then locked the patch and clicked it on to start
17:31:18 <ehird> here's something a... little more involved: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Autechremax.jpg
17:31:27 <ehird> made by autechre, they use max in their music
17:32:49 <ehird> it costs $$$$$ unfortunately
17:38:14 <ehird> Does anyone know how to actually get the gpu to run something
17:39:25 <ehird> Deewiant: lower level.
17:39:33 <ehird> I mean actually writing ... whatever the equivalent of asm is.
17:39:37 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
17:39:54 <ehird> Then, somehow, telling the CPU to tell the GPU to get on that.
17:40:28 <ehird> Deewiant: isn't that limited to like actually doing stuff on screen though
17:40:34 <ehird> as opposed to calculating with boring numbers and whatnot
17:47:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
17:53:59 <GregorR> It tastes like matrix math, but it's as healthy as algebra!
17:58:00 <ehird> http://imgur.com/MPGBU.gif
18:00:11 <ehird> No! The answer is no!
18:00:44 <ehird> [[ Let me throw out an argument for a greater spirit of equity here. [If this
18:00:44 <ehird> fails, it is probably the last time I will ever believe that equity was
18:00:46 <ehird> possible here or pitch for its use]: ]]
18:00:48 <ehird> Just like the last time.
18:03:22 <Gracenotes> oh, goodness, Pokemon writers and their innuendo. "We went at it back in the day"
18:04:35 <Gracenotes> and the 'randomized' content pairings, they also pair up the most expected people for last
18:04:56 <ais523> Gracenotes: do you play pokemon, or just watch the cartoon?
18:05:07 <GregorR> It's almost as if ... the cartoon was written by humans!
18:05:08 <Deewiant> I don't think they even pretend that those are random :-P
18:05:11 <ais523> unfortunately I seriously doubt it's TC
18:05:33 <Gracenotes> the cartoon is entertaining.. I watched all 10 seconds last summer in a few weeks
18:06:03 <Gracenotes> since then I've been waiting a few months and watching the episodes I missed, repeating this. I don't watch it every week.
18:06:06 <GregorR> Then proceeding to watch all of another 10 seconds, then another 10 seconds, then another three seasons ...
18:06:29 <Gracenotes> I have played the games and beaten many of them
18:06:50 * GregorR tries to decide whether Pokelust is /ignore-worthy :P
18:06:57 * ehird attempts to run MaxMSP on Linux
18:07:06 <ais523> well, "beaten them" is rather unclear
18:07:25 <ehird> ais523: he means the gameboy games, probably
18:07:29 <GregorR> Oh, I beat them. I beat them with a baseball bat. Consider them thoroughly beaten.
18:07:47 <ais523> ehird: it's not clear what constitutes completing the gameboy games
18:07:59 <Gracenotes> by 'get everything' I mean capturing everything
18:08:10 <ehird> ais523: They're open-ended? I wasn't aware.
18:08:14 <ais523> in later versions, there are two sets of everythings to capture
18:08:27 <ais523> ehird: how could you not be aware of that?
18:08:34 <ais523> generally, completing the elite four unlocks a bit more of the map
18:08:36 <Gracenotes> oh, that's the later version, which has a backwards-compatible Pokemon-land.
18:08:39 <ehird> ais523: Not good enough to get far enough to realise that.
18:08:42 <ais523> so you can go and complete all the openendedness
18:08:42 <GregorR> I wasn't aware either, but then I've never played them :P
18:08:51 <ais523> Gracenotes: there have been at least two versions since then
18:09:22 <Gracenotes> are you talking about the Southern Islands in Firered/Leafgreen?
18:09:50 <Gracenotes> but, as I said, I don't play it that much, not competitively, just when bored.
18:09:56 <GregorR> ehird: Is this running something on wine?
18:10:12 <ehird> GregorR: Is that a joke?
18:10:44 <GregorR> ehird: Idonno, I haven't been following, I just saw you saying you were trying to get something called MaxMSP running on Linux, then that it didn't work.
18:10:54 <ehird> GregorR: Yes. That is correct.
18:11:10 <ehird> It's a driver issue.
18:11:14 <GregorR> Then no, that wasn't a joke :P
18:11:32 <ais523> Gracenotes: oh, I thought you were referring to the copy of the red and blue map in gold and silver
18:11:38 <ehird> This software requires installation of device driver TPkd and a reboot before running. Please reboot or reinstall the software.β
18:11:40 <ais523> but you have pal park and the battle park in the latest versions
18:11:44 <AnMaster> ehird, one of the abuse@ mails had success :)
18:11:49 <GregorR> ehird: Well that's just obnoxious.
18:11:51 <ehird> If I run the driver installer, I get an error saying the archive is malformed.
18:12:07 <ehird> Also, I got a minor error thing from the .msi but it seemed t owork.
18:12:28 <Gracenotes> ais523: oh. Yeah. By backwards-compatible I meant "catching Pokemon from previous generations"
18:12:39 <GregorR> If that's actually a device driver, I would not anticipate it working.
18:12:40 <ehird> The Runtime starts.
18:12:45 <ehird> And gives a lot of worrying errors, but it starts.
18:12:53 <AnMaster> ais523, you may be interested in that too
18:12:56 <ehird> But the runtime is useles for making patches
18:13:02 <ais523> AnMaster: well, what was the reply?
18:13:32 <GregorR> Dear AnMaster@...: SCREW YOU HA HA HA WE SPAM LAWL
18:14:05 <GregorR> Getting any sort of response at all from an abuse@ address is pretty darn successful :P
18:14:37 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/522Q4u44.html
18:15:21 <GregorR> What was the site you got blorped?
18:16:28 <AnMaster> GregorR, irc bot spamming download to trojan, reported the domain used for forwarding to a generic file hosting site used for hosting the trojan.
18:17:03 <ehird> Ok. So the runtime works.
18:17:07 <ehird> Just not the editor thing.
18:17:19 <AnMaster> reported to abuse@ found in whois for ip of spambot, ip of server hosting forwarder and so on.
18:18:03 <AnMaster> the file hosting site found out quite fast and removed it even before I could send a mail notifying them of it (or someone else already did that)
18:18:43 <AnMaster> anyway I got sick of lots of spambots spamming similar messages, sure spamfilters now catch them pretty well but even so...
18:19:09 <Deewiant> fact a Free Domain registrant, therefore
18:19:09 <Deewiant> because of the violation, the domain has
18:19:17 <Deewiant> So if he had paid for it it would be alright :-P
18:19:35 <ehird> ah. it is "PACE" protected.
18:19:41 <ehird> which is some kind of piracy protection I guess
18:19:47 <ehird> that's why the runtime works, it's not protected
18:20:28 <ais523> antipiracy tends not to work very well on genuine Windows either
18:20:55 <ais523> I really admire Bioware for patching out the antipiracy checks in Neverwinter Nights 1 in a relatively early update
18:21:11 <ehird> ais523: Don't copy that floppy.
18:21:28 <AnMaster> ehird, since I'm trying to solve an issue with swap trashing I won't google it, links/lynx/w3m are just a pain to use.
18:21:35 <ais523> don't worry, I've bought all the copies of that I need
18:21:37 <AnMaster> so maybe I'll look it up later
18:21:40 <ehird> w3m is a pain to use??
18:21:44 <ais523> as in, I bought a Windows CD to get a licence for the Linux version
18:22:31 <ehird> it occurs to me that linux satisfies the needs of Regular People(TM) and the ubergeeks, but not the people inbetwee
18:23:05 <ais523> especially if the inbetween people grew up on Windows
18:23:17 <ais523> changing Linux <-> OS X isn't as hard as from Windows to either, I don't think
18:23:29 <ais523> because although the UIs are different, they both have POSIXish internals
18:24:05 <pikhq> And if you *really* want it to, OS X can look almost identical to Linux.
18:24:06 <ehird> ais523: well, max/msp is portable
18:24:12 <ehird> it's available for both windows and linux
18:24:15 <ehird> and is identical on both
18:24:16 <pikhq> ... (granted, the same is true of Windows)
18:24:25 <ehird> they just haven't bothered to do linux...
18:24:26 <ais523> Linux can look almost identical to Windows, too
18:24:33 <ehird> pikhq: you can run X11 on os x
18:24:37 <ehird> and get it looking identical to unix
18:24:42 <ehird> although that's rather missing the point
18:24:48 <ais523> presumably you can run gdm on OSX, you just wouldn't
18:24:54 <pikhq> That's what I was referring to.
18:25:17 <ehird> there is an advantage to doing that over just using linux
18:25:25 <pikhq> ais523: It's possible to get gdm or kdm running instead of the normal OS X stuff rather easily.
18:25:32 <ehird> in that quartz is more stable than X11's gfx drivers
18:25:36 <ehird> (and apple's X11 is quartz-backed)
18:25:42 <pikhq> Just a slight modification to OS X's inittab equivalent.
18:26:07 <pikhq> ehird, you also have the option to use X.org...
18:26:24 <ehird> pikhq: yes, but then there's 0 advantage over using linux :P
18:26:27 <pikhq> Though, honestly, at that point, you should just install GNU/Darwin; it's the same damned thing.
18:26:27 <ehird> negative advantage, even
18:26:30 <ehird> since it's not tuned for doing that
18:26:52 * ais523 wonders what a Windows port of getty would be like
18:27:04 <pikhq> Ask Cygwin, I bet they have one.
18:27:34 <ehird> cygwin is reversed wine
18:28:01 <ais523> is it possible to get cygwin to run at the binary level?
18:28:04 <ais523> or only with a recompile
18:28:13 <ehird> only with a recompile
18:28:26 <ehird> you could write an ELF "emulator" for windows
18:28:29 <ehird> and hook it into cygwin
18:28:55 <ais523> like userspace qemu, for instance?
18:29:11 * ais523 was using qemu-arm to test C-INTERCAL cross-compilation
18:29:13 <ehird> not emulate the actual instructions
18:29:21 <ehird> it'd just load an ELF and run it
18:29:26 <ehird> with some LD_PRELOAD-esque magic for cygwin
18:29:52 <pikhq> I don't think Windows would handle it too readily.
18:30:00 <pikhq> Windows doesn't much like alternate executable formats.
18:30:13 <ehird> pikhq: I meant, you'd do all the parsing and whatnot yourself
18:30:23 <ehird> then run the actual code section as whatever window's using this week
18:32:55 <GregorR> I wrote an ELF loader for Windows.
18:33:17 <GregorR> It doesn't hook up to Cygwin or anything. The other major problem you'd run in to are binaries that call syscalls directly.
18:33:46 <ehird> Just grep for syscalls
18:33:49 <ehird> and replace with stub function calls
18:33:54 <ehird> that emulate the linux ones
18:34:12 <Deewiant> Might break self-modifying code since the instructions aren't the same size!
18:34:21 <ehird> Deewiant: Pad them out
18:34:36 <Deewiant> ehird: As in, they might be longer
18:34:36 <ehird> If they're too big, fix that.
18:34:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Right. So don't do that :-P
18:34:54 <GregorR> ehird: Have fun. Feel free to use WinELF :P
18:35:01 <Deewiant> Well, what're ye gonna do when you have such a binary :-P
18:35:16 <ehird> Deewiant: there are a limited number of syscalls that exist
18:35:24 <ehird> so, there's a maximum size a syscall instruction can be
18:35:30 <ehird> so, make sure your replacements are always shorter
18:35:41 <Deewiant> 'syscall' is always the same size
18:35:47 <ehird> There you go then.
18:36:57 <GregorR> ehird: http://svn.berlios.de/svnroot/repos/crosslibc/other/
18:37:27 <ehird> elfload.exe - no source?
18:38:01 <pikhq> That'd work rather well on that somewhat screwy hybrid of WINE and Linux that supports both Windows and Linux system calls...
18:38:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh brother.
18:38:14 <GregorR> Oh, sorry, the source to elfload.exe is rtload, it's in the trunk of that project
18:38:29 <ehird> someone should make a system that's a combination of both WINE and cygwin
18:38:43 <ehird> it supports both windows AND linux, both inferior to the real thing!
18:38:50 <GregorR> http://svn.berlios.de/svnroot/repos/crosslibc/trunk/rtload/
18:38:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, something based on ReactOS maybe?
18:39:04 <pikhq> That'd be ReactOS/
18:39:43 <ehird> CARCASS OF MAGNIMOUSLY
18:40:26 <AnMaster> reactos doesn't work very well, that was kind of my point.
18:40:55 <pikhq> ehird: Said hybrid is called E/OS, IIRC. The idea is to support programs for every OS.
18:40:55 <GregorR> Last I tried it, it was both better and worse than I expected.
18:41:10 <Deewiant> Stuff tends to work less well under virtualization than otherwise
18:41:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, how do you mean both better and worse
18:41:40 <pikhq> Sorry, make that Linux Unified Kernel, which only aims to support Windows & Linux.
18:41:43 <GregorR> AnMaster: Some features were much better than I anticipated, others were much worse.
18:41:50 <pikhq> Including drivers.
18:42:15 <AnMaster> I mean what about the security model of windows...
18:42:35 <Deewiant> You can improve your kernel all you want but you can't deal with crap software
18:42:48 <pikhq> Well, it *is* a Win32 implementation...
18:42:50 <AnMaster> too many things would depend on admin rights on windows
18:42:58 <pikhq> Deewiant: The only way to deal with it, I guess, would be SELinux.
18:43:13 <Deewiant> Well yeah, you can "deal" with crap software by not letting it run :-P
18:43:14 <AnMaster> so thus it would be just as insecure as real windows, or not be able to run most apps
18:43:25 <ehird> AnMaster: false dichotomy, wayoh!
18:44:00 <ehird> Incorrect premise: "All Windows security problems are due to requiring Administrator access and the only way to fix this is to not use the admin account."
18:44:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, selinux: Did you mean: having to spend half an hour to write a policy for a program that takes 10 seconds to run.
18:44:56 <AnMaster> well I was being optimistic I guess
18:45:07 <AnMaster> my experience is that it takes way longer
18:46:20 <ehird> SELinux works fine ime.
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18:46:56 <AnMaster> but the fact that so many windows programs won't work without admin rights, and users are lazy, tends to be one major problem
18:49:46 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out).
18:49:53 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
18:50:14 * GregorR-L spams http://codu.org/wiki/index.php?title=Earth at the channel again.
18:50:47 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:51:01 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
18:51:06 <GregorR-L> But first I'm going to make xchat crash :P
18:51:48 <ehird> GregorR-L: I have an idea.
18:52:04 <ehird> The conlang for it should be hopelessly unsuited to the task of this documentary.
18:52:10 <ehird> For instance, "Earth" should be 3 lines of text.
18:52:27 <ehird> ΓΌxuΒ¨Β₯©¨Β₯ΛΒ©gauyhdΖΒ©ΛΚΌΓΈΓ°Εa ΓΌxuΒ¨Β₯©¨Β₯ΛΒ©gauyhdΖΒ©ΛΓΌxuΒ¨Β₯©¨Β₯ΛΒ©gauyhdΖΒ©ΛΚΌΓΈΓ°Εa
18:52:28 <ehird> ΓΌxuΒ¨Β₯©¨Β₯ΛΒ©gauyhdΖΒ©ΛΚΌΓΈΓ°ΕaΓΌxuΒ¨Β₯©¨Β₯ΛΒ©gauyhdΖΒ©ΛΚΌΓΈΓ°ΕaΓΌxuΒ¨Β₯©¨Β₯ΛΒ©gauyhdΖΒ©ΛΚΌΓΈΓ°Εa
18:52:31 <ehird> ΓΌxuΒ¨Β₯©¨Β₯ΛΒ©gauyhdΖΒ©ΛΚΌΓΈΓ°ΕaΓΌxuΒ¨Β₯©¨Β₯ΛΒ©gauyhdΖΒ©ΛΚΌΓΈΓ°ΕaΓΌxuΒ¨Β₯©¨Β₯ΛΒ©gauyhdΖΒ©ΛΚΌΓΈΓ°Εa
18:52:37 <GregorR-L> Put ideas on wiki, not #esoteric :P
18:52:46 <ehird> I'll put my idea wherever I want tyvm :|
18:53:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: it should have αΊ as a letter.
18:53:14 <Deewiant> "As we know, the well-accepted signs of intelligence are communication, [no translation], [no translation], civilization, [no translation], and tool use."
18:53:25 <ehird> Being the blend of "x" as in "ch" in "Bach", the English "x" and the sound of "six"
18:53:51 <AnMaster> bbiab, rebooting due to kernel recompile (change could not be done as module this time)
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19:02:05 <ais523> Yet Another Enigma Level: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1394124
19:02:19 <ais523> AnMaster might actually like that one, but I don't think that ehird will necessarily hate it
19:02:55 <ehird> do I _have_ to save it manually from there?
19:02:59 <ehird> you didn't even give a filename!
19:03:16 <ais523> and filebin.ca has stopped working for me, I'm not sure why
19:03:29 <ehird> ais523: does it say it can't be saved?
19:03:32 <ehird> and the link appears
19:03:56 <ehird> i love enigma's menu music
19:04:11 <ais523> the menu music has copyright issues, IIRC they're replacing it
19:04:27 <ehird> What're the issues?
19:04:34 <ehird> I'm talking about the one in v1.01 fwiw
19:05:08 <ehird> It's a fuckin' mod file
19:06:38 <ais523> it should be pretty simple to figure the rules
19:06:45 <ais523> especially as it's a WYSIWYG level
19:06:51 <ehird> it's just frustrating :D
19:07:23 <ehird> I got to the other side a second time
19:07:24 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection reset by peer).
19:07:30 <ehird> and bashed one of the no-go-through blocks
19:07:37 <ehird> and onto an exposed death
19:08:37 <ehird> I bounced to the other side
19:08:41 <ehird> onto one of the no-go blocks
19:08:44 <ehird> and bounced BACK WHERE I STARTED
19:08:52 <ais523> I do that on occasion too
19:09:57 * ehird takes out a full row of death protectors :x
19:10:20 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success).
19:11:17 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:12:00 <ais523> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=321669 explains the copyright issue
19:12:58 <ehird> We have a special permission from Andrew Sega (aka Necros) to distribute
19:12:58 <ehird> menu.s3m with Engima. He is also listed in the manual
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19:13:34 <ehird> "I think it will be at least problematic." Fuck
19:13:42 <ais523> so you can get the music from the official site, with Enigma
19:13:47 <ais523> but none of the mirrors have it for legal reasons
19:13:56 <ehird> what? Is that the situation now?
19:14:01 <ehird> When I used Enigma on Ubuntu it had the music
19:14:04 <ehird> well, that was years ago
19:14:21 <ais523> yes, nowadays you can download the music and put it in the right place by hand and it works
19:14:24 <ais523> but it isn't in the repos
19:14:27 <ehird> "Erich, applying the GPL to a documentation is ok, but don't you think you are
19:14:27 <ehird> pushing things a bit hard by applying it to a music file too ? "
19:14:30 <ehird> ais523: that's bullshit
19:15:00 <ehird> ais523: got two out of four on your leve;
19:15:30 <ais523> yep, it's mostly an AnMastery level, I think
19:15:41 <ehird> ais523: not much exploration or finding out.
19:15:49 <ais523> yes, but lots of patience
19:15:49 <ehird> it's too fun for that
19:16:54 <ehird> ais523: this is from 2005
19:16:58 <ehird> has it not been resolved yet?!
19:17:00 <ais523> 11 is finished, by the way, but I'm not sure if I'm evil enough to create it
19:17:11 <ehird> I had Enigma music after 2005 on linux
19:17:15 <ehird> ais523: create it?
19:18:01 <ais523> the idea was that I wanted to make levels that pushed the limits of difficulty in the 5 categories, int/dex/spd/kno/pat
19:18:06 <ais523> it's designed as a maximum-dex level
19:18:13 <ehird> what're the ratings
19:18:14 <ais523> I've only done it on easy, as a result
19:18:38 <ais523> int 2 / dex 6 (5's the maximum) / spd 1 / kno 4 / pat 3
19:18:50 <ehird> that's not very maxed out
19:18:51 <ais523> (pat is linked to difficulty, if a level's so hard you have to keep restarting it the pat goes up)
19:19:01 <ais523> no, I mean, 5 different levels
19:19:05 <ais523> each of which maxed a different stat
19:19:11 <ehird> you should make a 6 of all
19:19:20 <ais523> I'd certainly like to try a max-kno level
19:19:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:20:06 <ehird> a level requiring great puzzle-solving skills and very fine movement while under constant danger if you don't go fast, using incredibly obscure interactions, objects and *bugs* -- and where you can die at any corner.
19:20:08 <ehird> ais523: MAKE IT :D
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19:20:43 <ais523> I've already found one bug that I had to work around in Tourism
19:20:47 <ais523> but it's fixed in 1.10, I think
19:21:07 <ehird> I say bugs, I mean obscure corners that might not be totally intentional
19:21:24 <ehird> int 6 comes from the very complex puzzle intwined in every part of the level
19:21:44 <ehird> dex 6 comes from every move you make affecting the puzzle: one wrong move and you've lost
19:21:48 <ehird> spd 6 is from the constant danger from things chasing you and whatnot
19:21:53 <ehird> kno 6 is from the incredibly obscure interactions
19:22:02 <ehird> and pat 6 is because there's so many oppertunities to lose
19:22:33 * ais523 just tried to use shift-f3 to reload a Web page
19:22:58 <ais523> restart level key in Enigma
19:23:02 <ais523> you can tell what I've been doing recently
19:24:21 <ais523> anyway, if you're curious: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1394185 is ais52311_1.xml
19:24:27 <ais523> I've only solved it on easy
19:24:35 <ais523> but removing all my mistakes, I could have solved it on hard
19:24:49 <ais523> (easy and hard are the same except easy gives you infinite extra lives, even then the level is still quite hard)
19:26:13 <ehird> what's default mouse speed again
19:26:30 <ais523> according to the forums most people have it from about 5 to 7
19:26:34 <ais523> and set it to 15 on a few levels
19:26:56 <ehird> ais523: how do you get past the chasm of water
19:27:03 <ais523> those blocks are movable
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19:27:47 <ehird> ais523: this doesn't look that hard
19:27:54 <ehird> ... hey AnMaster ;;;;;;)
19:28:05 <ais523> the bit in the middle is extremely hard
19:28:17 <ais523> push a chess stone when a laser denies you access to all but a tiny bit
19:28:51 <ehird> my issue is the bounce-back from the blocks you move
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19:29:12 <ais523> AnMaster: ais52311_1.xml = http://pastebin.ca/raw/1394185 ; ais52312_1.xml = http://pastebin.ca/raw/1394124
19:29:30 <ehird> AnMaster: because tedious boringness is exactly your level style.
19:29:31 <ais523> also, as it's an evil dex level, I deliberately tried to maximise the problems caused by block bounceback
19:29:36 <ais523> as that's one of the thing that sends dex sky-high
19:30:08 <ehird> ais523: not quite infinite lives, is it
19:30:14 <ais523> ehird: it is on easy, it isn't on hard
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19:30:24 <ehird> ais523: yes but it's just a large amount of finite lives
19:30:24 <ais523> 11 was me trying to create the highest-dex level I could
19:30:38 <ais523> it generates extra lives on the square you get respawned on
19:30:53 <ais523> you'll notice that your inventory starts full of it-extralife, and never gets smaller no matter how often you die
19:31:30 <ehird> ais523: I literally cannot bounce them without bouncing back into something
19:31:31 <ehird> is it even possible
19:31:48 <ais523> I've done the entire level on easy with only two deaths which alter the gamestate
19:32:02 <ais523> therefore, taking all my best attempts together and cutting out the mistakes I could have done it on hard
19:32:48 <ehird> a chess piece surrounded diagonally by water.
19:33:04 <ais523> the block to its right fills in the space to its right
19:33:13 <ehird> i didn't get that one
19:34:32 <ehird> ais523: wait, what?
19:34:39 <ais523> what's the wait, what? for?
19:34:53 <ehird> screenshot of a position where you can hit the first chess piece?
19:35:10 <ehird> http://pics.livejournal.com/koalafrog/pic/002g4c16/s640x480
19:37:20 <ais523> strangely, imagebin.ca isn't working either
19:38:18 <ais523> grr, it's setting foreground colour but not background colour for the text box you put the filename in
19:38:37 <ais523> which makes it white on light grey
19:38:52 <ehird> ais523: aw, cute little ais523, using a browser without a file selection widget
19:39:01 <ais523> it has a file selection widget
19:39:07 <ais523> which is the only reason it isn't tolerable
19:39:10 <ais523> http://imgur.com/2A6RO anyway
19:39:18 <ehird> ais523: wrong link
19:39:20 <ehird> you need to append .png
19:39:24 <ehird> http://imgur.com/2A6RO.png
19:39:31 <ehird> how do you diagonally hit that
19:39:40 <ais523> chess stones aren't hit diagonally
19:39:43 <ais523> they're hit orthogonally
19:39:46 <ais523> just whilst moving diagonally
19:39:51 <ais523> as in, to move a chess stone south
19:40:34 <ais523> you hit it on its north face whilst moving south-west
19:41:40 <ais523> I deliberately set up situations where the chess stones were hard to move
19:42:19 <ehird> this is like pat 9001
19:43:31 <ehird> ais523: i'm going down-left and bashing into it
19:43:42 <ais523> well, I just pushed it via that method
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19:43:54 <ais523> oh, you have to hit it with a set minimum force too
19:44:20 <ehird> i have mouse speed set to 1
19:44:22 <ehird> so this may be difficult
19:45:00 <ais523> can you move chess stones on other levels?
19:45:09 <ehird> although with less carefulness
19:45:13 <ehird> and more trial and error
19:45:41 <ais523> I just moved the stone at mouseforce 1, anyway
19:45:47 <ais523> although I drowned immediately afterwards
19:45:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:46:00 <ais523> because I couldn't slow down fast enough from the rebound because the mouseforce was too low
19:46:06 <ehird> i wish this had some respawney point things
19:46:45 <ais523> but it's only one screen, and linear
19:47:12 <ehird> ais523: yes, but I keep dying
19:47:15 <ehird> and retracing my steps over and over
19:47:24 <oerjan> <ehird> and I think "we will be able to live longer within 80 years" as a prediction is almost certain
19:47:54 <ais523> really? I'd assume that our life expectancy would be 80 shorter
19:47:57 <ehird> 19:46 oerjan: <ehird> and I think "we will be able to live longer within 80 years" as a prediction is almost certain
19:48:08 <oerjan> it is conceivable that life extension requires preventing some damage from birth, so that it is too late for us
19:48:14 <ehird> ais523: i meant, "within 80 years we will be able to extend our life spans"
19:48:25 <ehird> oerjan: conceivable, but perhaps not likely.
19:48:28 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out).
19:48:41 <ehird> i would be incredibly surprised if it were completely impossible to extend existing lifespans.
19:48:44 <oerjan> i.e. we already know _some_ ways of extending life spans, which most of us are too lazy to do
19:49:09 <oerjan> (well maybe not final lifespan, but average)
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19:50:55 <lament> i expand my lifespan every time i fail to kill myself
19:51:52 <ehird> lament: conversation killer extraordinaire
19:51:56 <oerjan> obviously, immortality requires us to be able to extend lifespan by more than 1 second per second, eventually
19:52:32 <ehird> oerjan: i invented a time machine
19:52:38 <oerjan> yes most conversations stop when participants kill themselves
19:52:42 <ehird> it can only go forward, and it goes at 1 second per second
19:52:43 <ais523> AnMaster: had a look at my levels yet?
19:53:26 <AnMaster> ais523, notice lack of plural above.
19:53:39 <ais523> but surely you formed some opinion?
19:53:43 <AnMaster> actually one of them doesn't seem too bad.
19:53:47 <ais523> or you just glanced at them and mentally put them off too later?
19:53:59 <ais523> also, which one doesn't seem too bad?
19:54:02 <AnMaster> ais523, well mostly that because I'm busy
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19:54:06 <oerjan> ehird: i think there is some prior art there
19:54:09 <ais523> and fine, I guessed you were
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19:54:48 <AnMaster> Yay! Got electric piano to work with USB in rosegarden in linux :D
19:54:57 <AnMaster> actually I'm not surprised these days
19:55:23 <AnMaster> just need to fiddle a bit with midi mixer in rosegarden
19:55:33 <ais523> AnMaster: you use rosegarden too?
19:55:51 <ehird> yay! i tried to do something with linux and IT WORKED with only a little bit of mindless configuration twiddling!
19:55:52 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, I don't know any other good app like it, and I have no reason to change
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19:56:02 <ehird> by wasting my time i am expressing my superiority to other operating systems!
19:56:08 <ehird> ais523: you'll have to ask AnMaster
19:56:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I get same config twiddling under cubasis under windows too
19:56:24 <ais523> well, I got rosegarden working without any config twiddling
19:56:27 <AnMaster> ehird, thing is midi will always need a bit of setup in the mixer
19:56:32 <ehird> AnMaster: not on os x
19:56:33 <ais523> just by installing timidity
19:56:38 <AnMaster> ehird, had to select the right output and input unit
19:56:46 <AnMaster> so it can't auto detect in any way
19:56:52 <ais523> AnMaster: I've needed to fiddle with that on Windows, but not on Linux
19:56:54 <ehird> err selecting an input isn't what you implied
19:57:02 <ehird> also, it can easily DTRT
19:57:10 <ehird> if you have a keyboard you probably want to input via that, for instance
19:57:19 <AnMaster> ehird, well it can't know from usb that I do
19:57:27 <ais523> ehird: in theory the midi can't tell whether it's a keyboard or something else
19:57:32 <AnMaster> it can only know it is a unit implementing midi
19:57:37 <ais523> although IMO, the obvious thing to do is just to accept via /every/ midi input
19:57:47 <AnMaster> ehird, also I wanted output to keyboard too
19:58:02 <ehird> that's what garageband does
19:58:02 <AnMaster> instead of hardware midi on the sound card
19:58:30 <ais523> well, I use software MIDI via my sound card here
19:58:41 <AnMaster> automatically handling that would be something like "read mind of user"
19:58:54 <AnMaster> because sometimes you may want output to one unit, and sometimes to another
19:59:07 <AnMaster> getting output to all units is probably NOT what you want in fact
19:59:18 <ehird> in that case it can prompt
19:59:22 <ehird> but for inputs just accept everything
19:59:49 <AnMaster> ehird, there are reasons to avoid that too sometimes. When you only want to capture some of the output from an unit
20:00:04 <ehird> http://conservativedialysis.com/~mnick/wp/wp-content/themes/dkubrick/images/Oval_CD_V2_01.png
20:00:08 <ehird> CONSERVATIVE DIALYSIS
20:00:10 <ehird> REMOVING LIBERAL WASTE FORM
20:00:13 <ehird> THE AMERICAN BLOODSTREAM
20:00:15 <AnMaster> which was the fact here, since this keyboard seems to send odd system messages on channel 16
20:00:23 <ehird> worst blog name/tagline ever y/n
20:00:42 <ehird> AnMaster: FROM. :P
20:00:45 <ehird> the first two sidebar entries are Never Forget followed by a picture of 911
20:00:57 <ehird> and then The Religion of Peace and some bullshit statistics about ISLAMIC TERRISTS killing people
20:01:29 <ehird> ooh, it even has "Anti-Idiotarian" on the page
20:01:41 <AnMaster> now to figure out midi-thru on the unit
20:01:43 <ehird> "It is not my intention to be fair or balanced."
20:01:57 * AnMaster waits for ehird to claim this is a linux issue too.
20:02:12 <ehird> AnMaster: when did you last edit your Xorg.conf?
20:02:14 <AnMaster> (which it isn't, it is just an issue with MIDI)
20:02:25 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, a year ago or so probably
20:02:26 <ais523> ehird: I last edited an Xorg.conf two days afo
20:02:37 <ais523> but I was undoing borkage that I introfuced editing it months ago
20:02:41 <ehird> go and edit it so I can troll you
20:02:53 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you just changed topic there
20:03:10 <ehird> oh boy, this conservative dialysis guy supported .xxx
20:03:50 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you 1) bother reading it 2) bother writing about it here
20:04:12 <ehird> AnMaster: 1) idiots are funny 2) i've only said about 7 lines.
20:04:29 <AnMaster> oh? you tend to get irritated when I reach the second line
20:04:48 <ehird> i wish that made any sense so I could tell you how stupid it is
20:06:00 <AnMaster> it did make sense. You just failed at understanding it
20:06:17 <ehird> right. if anyone fails to understand someone it's their fault
20:06:26 <ehird> it's not like communication is attempting to inject meaning into other's minds or anything
20:06:37 <Deewiant> http://pics.livejournal.com/koalafrog/pic/002g4c16/s640x480
20:06:55 <ehird> Deewiant: i just linked that.
20:07:13 <Deewiant> Sorry if I missed it before that
20:07:19 <ehird> BE TELEPATHIC DAMMIT
20:07:38 <ais523> why did you both just link it?
20:07:41 <Deewiant> (Those two pageups go up 30 mins)
20:07:48 <ehird> ais523: because we think it was amusing, presumably.
20:07:57 <Deewiant> (So your "few minutes" is a bit of a stretch)
20:08:02 <ais523> but where did you find it?
20:08:07 <ehird> ais523: reddit, probably.
20:08:34 <ehird> /nick PersonalRedditQualityFilteringSystemShareAndEnjoy
20:10:05 <ehird> Historically, locate only stored characters between 32 and 127. The cur-
20:10:06 <ehird> rent implementation store any character except newline (`\n') and NUL
20:10:07 <ehird> (`\0'). The 8-bit character support does not waste extra space for plain
20:10:09 <ehird> ASCII file names. Characters less than 32 or greater than 127 are stored
20:10:19 <ehird> it's like... ASCII-7
20:11:20 <AnMaster> ehird, which locate... it isn't mentioned in the one I have
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20:11:54 <Deewiant> ehird: I wonder how it stores characters outside the BMP in two bytes
20:12:09 <ehird> Deewiant: it just does 0-256
20:12:18 <ehird> just like utf-8 does 0-ridiculous in 0-256
20:12:21 <Deewiant> I wonder why it uses two bytes for that :-P
20:12:33 <ehird> Deewiant: beats me! compatibility?
20:13:16 <ehird> " The locate utility does not recognize multibyte characters. "
20:13:27 <fizzie> Heh, my two pageups go approximately 8 minutes now; I updated some drivers (more-or-less-beta-maybe-I-guess-or-should-it-be-stable proprietary nvidia 180.44, xorg 7.4, 2.6.29.1 kernel) and now (a) cursor droppings are left on the other screen when I move the cursor from one screen to the other, and (b) X crashes after approximately 5 minutes. That's very suboptimal.
20:13:48 <Deewiant> I don't even need to press pageup to go back 13 minutes :-P
20:14:15 <fizzie> This is the 80x25 text console, since I had some problems with the nvidiafb framebuffer console, too.
20:14:32 <Deewiant> I haven't bothered even trying to run a framebuffer on this AMD card
20:14:52 <Deewiant> Don't really feel a need for it anyway
20:15:15 <fizzie> The hilarious part is that by default the card is set to mirror the 80x25 screen on both connected monitors, and it doesn't know about the rotation, so I get a horribly big and stretched 80x25 console, and a 90 degrees tilted copy of it to the left.
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20:22:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, never had such issues with nvidia drivers. Other issues sometimes but not those.
20:23:43 <fizzie> Actually I don't think it (well, except the cursor thing maybe) is related to the nvidia drivers.
20:23:56 <fizzie> Some 180.2x version used to work just fine.
20:24:00 <AnMaster> <sfdsfdfds> hy,scuze me for disturbing you, colud you help me an check the lines if they are corect writen ? , in my "ppp.conf" file in here http://paste2.org/p/185018 , Best Regards
20:24:00 <AnMaster> * [sfdsfdfds] (n=l0renzo@79.116.94.107): anonym
20:24:00 <AnMaster> * [sfdsfdfds] ##bsd #bsdhelp #freenode #openbsd
20:24:25 <AnMaster> I should try to figure out what setting to use to turn off /msg from non-registered users
20:25:09 <oerjan> well something like that
20:25:18 <fizzie> The X backtrace is: XkbProcessKeyboardEvent - XkbHandleActions - ProcessOtherEvent - CheckMotion - [something]Β - [something] - [something] - [something in libc.so] - xf86SigHandler.
20:25:22 <oerjan> strange thing is, /mode oerjan doesn't show it for me
20:25:40 <oerjan> anyway it was in the freenode faq somewhere
20:25:44 <fizzie> And the most reliable way of getting it to crash seems to be to write "ls" in a terminal, and then hold enter down long enough that it starts to scroll.
20:26:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, downgrade to old version
20:26:25 <AnMaster> should be easy with most sane package manager
20:26:45 <AnMaster> on gentoo it would be emerge =x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers-180.29 or such to force a specific version of those available
20:26:51 <AnMaster> and considering how many are available heh
20:27:01 <oerjan> huh the faq link doesn't work
20:27:19 <AnMaster> and then report it to freenode staff
20:27:26 <fizzie> Really, I'm not that sure it's nvidia-driver-related.
20:27:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, try downgrading and see it it solves the issue?
20:27:42 <ehird> downgrading on debian is unsupported.
20:27:53 <oerjan> the link _from_ the main faq list
20:28:04 <ehird> otherwise you get a combinatorial explosion of dependency combinations you have to test
20:28:06 <AnMaster> but for some stuff it is useful
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20:28:12 <ehird> which is roughly on the scale of impossible.
20:28:19 <AnMaster> ehird, not an issue on source based distros :)
20:28:57 <AnMaster> ehird, much less, source level compatibility breaks less often than binary compatibility
20:29:06 <ehird> .....................
20:29:16 <ehird> point, your head: no collision.
20:29:48 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#spambots works
20:30:30 <ehird> AnMaster: sure it did.
20:30:36 <ehird> the point did not collide with your head; it went over it.
20:30:41 <ehird> Insert whoosh sound.
20:30:46 <oerjan> although i _think_ blocking is the default...
20:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, That may be because there was no point
20:31:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, it used to do that. It doesn't any longer.
20:32:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: some of your problem could be that sfdsfdfds actually _is_ a registered user...
20:32:06 <AnMaster> ehird, Not under normal conditions for dihydrogenmonoxide based water
20:32:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, well most of the time they aren't
20:33:27 <oerjan> actually maybe i _don't_ have that blocking. i have +i and am in only one channel so probably the spammers just don't find me
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20:34:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, I seem to have the modes +eEiuw atm.
20:34:21 <AnMaster> and you would have least have +ei
20:34:22 <ehird> oerjan: huh, aren't you usually in #haskell?
20:34:32 <oerjan> yeah that's what i have
20:34:48 <oerjan> ehird: haven't been regularly in #haskell for a year
20:34:59 <ehird> oh right you stopped programming :P
20:35:20 <ehird> AnMaster: what do you mean why
20:35:31 <AnMaster> why would anyone stop programming by their free will?!
20:35:44 <ehird> cuz he's concentrating on his maths work and other stuff?
20:35:52 <ehird> or is bored with programming?
20:39:34 <oerjan> /help mode only lists channel modes
20:41:27 <fizzie> Heh, how typical; if I attach a gdb to that X process (have nothing better to do than to poke at it) and tell it to continue, it seems to change timing or whatever enough so that it no longer crashes.
20:42:12 <fizzie> An elegant workaround: a cronjob that makes sure any X servers always have a gdb attached to them.
20:42:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, +u is: can join more channels than the default limit of 20
20:43:13 <oerjan> i probably don't need those then :D
20:43:22 <AnMaster> you get it by hanging around for a long time, muttering in various channels with staff in about that you need to part channel because you hit the 20 limit and so on and finally asking some staffer nicely about it
20:43:38 <AnMaster> thankfully I'm not close to that on freenode yet
20:44:09 <ehird> 20:41 fizzie: An elegant workaround: a cronjob that makes sure any X servers always have a gdb attached to them.
20:44:26 <fizzie> Unfortunately it just made it harder to crash. :p
20:44:28 <ehird> AnMaster: I think you could just ask instead of being passive-agressive
20:44:38 <fizzie> But at least I have a prettier backtrace now.
20:44:41 <ehird> fizzie: why'm I switching to linux again?
20:45:54 <fizzie> ehird: Some sort of masochism, maybe?
20:47:16 <fizzie> This particular crash seems to be a null pointer dereference ("mov %rax,0x20(%rbx)" with %rbx zero) in ../../mi/mipointer.c:209, but unfortunately I don't happen to have X sources hanging around. Maybe I should.
20:47:54 <fizzie> As a disclaimer: this is, after all, Debian's "unstable" distribution; I certainly appreciate getting these nice puzzles right on my face when I least expect them.
20:48:38 <ehird> The best option for breaking your computer completely.
20:49:39 <fizzie> Well, so far it hasn't actually done anything to the hardware.
20:49:49 <ehird> So, guys, I found a time machine. Watch:
20:49:57 <ehird> who has the lowest ICQ number?
20:50:14 <ehird> It only goes back to the early 2000s, I'm afraid.
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20:50:49 * oerjan may or may not have had an ICQ number at one time, he's not quite sure
20:51:06 <ehird> Deewiant: well, the low-ICQ craze wasn't until later
20:51:11 <ehird> let's say late nineties to early 2000s
20:51:25 <ehird> Yes, among the geocities type of folk.
20:51:38 <ehird> 5 digits one sell for sth like $60 a pop
20:52:08 <fizzie> My number seems to be 9372355; that is a rather uninteresting number. Very close to being 8 digits, even.
20:52:10 <Deewiant> Mine is 9 digits, my brother has a 7-digit one
20:52:10 <oerjan> are these people from dubai? :D
20:52:26 <Deewiant> I only got mine in 2006 or so, haven't used it much
20:52:37 <ehird> my icq number is 2i
20:53:16 <ehird> for your imaginary internet friends
20:53:31 <oerjan> what's the q for anyway
20:53:33 <fizzie> I don't know when I got it; the backed-up ~/.licq config files I used to find out that number seem to have timestamps around 2001.
20:53:52 <ehird> oerjan: I See Qdeadpeople
20:54:02 <fizzie> I wonder if CU-seeme's still alive.
20:54:43 <fizzie> "The is still a small but active community" says wikipedia.
20:54:59 <fizzie> No official releases since 2000, so..
20:55:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
20:55:19 <ehird> "My husband and I both have 6 digit UINS, both under 300000. I didn't think the low number was a big deal until my husband had his "stolen". He was silly enough to enter his password in an email "from icq". The idiot who took it was even less clever than my husband because he forgot his password and had it emailed to the email address on the account which belongs to my husband. I took the number back for him. His is a good number and easy to remember bec
20:55:22 <ehird> ause 5 of the 6 numbers are consecutive. "
20:55:27 <ehird> SUBTLE BRAGGING OH I DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS A BIG THING
20:55:30 <ehird> EVEN THOUGH I THINK ABOUT IT
20:56:32 <ehird> "I'm 151029. Although admittedly I bought it."
20:57:39 <ehird> brb ββββββββββββββββββ
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20:59:47 <oerjan> now if it were 314159...
21:01:50 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:05:02 <fizzie> Since I'm sure you're all interested in xorg internals: the root cause of the problem is that MIPOINTER(dev) (a rather hairy macro) is returning NULL there, even though I guess it shouldn't be possible, based on the fact that no MIPOINTER use checks the return value.
21:05:53 <fizzie> At least digging that deep let me know some good words for googling and finding the git commit fixing this issue.
21:05:56 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:06:14 <Deewiant> + * Add 169_mipointer_nullptr_checks.patch:
21:07:10 <fizzie> That sounds like the workaround.
21:07:35 <Deewiant> +With -nvidia, when using Xinerama, holding down a key in a text field
21:07:36 <Deewiant> +on a non-primary screen can cause an X crash. This is caused because
21:07:36 <Deewiant> +the MIPOINTER(pDev) can return a NULL pointer for a non-null pDev in
21:07:36 <Deewiant> +some cases, and the mipointer.c code lacks checks for this condition.
21:07:59 <Deewiant> I find these kind of edge cases amusing
21:08:13 <fizzie> Yes, it sounds a bit nvidia-related after all. (Though not sure what the - there in "-nvidia" means in this case.)
21:08:24 <Deewiant> 1) Only on nVidia. 2) Only with Xinerama. 3) Holding down a key. 4) Only in a text field. 5) Only on a non-primary screen.
21:08:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: Presumably the driver.
21:08:53 <Deewiant> Anyhoo, that was from http://www.nabble.com/xorg-server:-Changes-to-%27ubuntu%27-td22743305.html
21:09:06 <fizzie> Yes, it is what I googled into too.
21:09:25 <fizzie> Though I get a crash by holding down a key in a rxvt-unicode on a primary screen. At least I *think* it's the primary screen.
21:09:42 <fizzie> I had some really good reason for using Xinerama instead of nvidia's own TwinView trickery.
21:10:00 <fizzie> I think TwinView did not support "dualhead with only one head rotated" or something.
21:10:41 <fizzie> TwinView being essentially what I guess the radeon driver calls MergedFB; not sure about fglrx.
21:13:02 <fizzie> Oh, it's called BigDesktop there? Heh, that's about the silliest of the various names.
21:13:13 <fizzie> Very descriptive, though.
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21:39:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> The best option for breaking your computer completely.
21:39:31 <AnMaster> even arch linux is more stable, And arch linux tends to be very bleeding edge
21:41:05 * ais523 wonders if anyone runs sid+experimental with all packages installed
21:41:08 <ais523> that must break even more...
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21:50:25 <kerlo> I wonder why Conservapedia even mentions mathematics.
21:51:53 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
21:52:05 <oerjan> sheesh, don't you know that the liberal cancer _started_ with those ancient greek mathematicians?
21:52:20 <GregorR> So they can use nonsensical mathematical "arguments" to prove God.
21:52:52 <ehird> 21:08 fizzie: Though I get a crash by holding down a key in a rxvt-unicode on a primary screen. At least I *think* it's the primary screen.
21:54:39 <ehird> I have a file called /W
21:54:43 <ehird> it is 0 bytes and owned by me
21:55:10 <GregorR> You were using DOS-style flags one time :P
21:57:28 <ais523> ehird: /W isn't a legal filename...
21:57:33 <ehird> ais523: sure it is
21:57:37 <ehird> it's the file W in /
21:57:53 <ehird> http://www.met.police.uk/campaigns/counter_terrorism/
21:57:57 <ehird> And the UK takes one more step to 1984.
21:58:12 <ehird> looking vaguely "suspicious" for whatever reason is highly illegal! be afraid of it!
21:58:22 <fizzie> I urxvt at home, at work and on the laptop (even though the laptop runs OS X); it is my favouritey terminal.
21:58:33 <ehird> let us arrest them for committing the crime of looking suspicious.
21:58:58 <oerjan> but but ... all brits look suspicious to me
21:59:05 <ehird> fizzie: trying to get urxvt working w/ x11 on here caused my x11-continually-starts-and-restarts-even-if-I-kill-everything issue.
21:59:11 <GregorR> Better than arresting college students for using "prompt commands"
21:59:12 <oerjan> _especially_ the politicians
21:59:29 <ehird> fizzie: gave up anyway since X11 windows look like tiger, which sux
21:59:45 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=x11&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
21:59:48 <ehird> first result is apple's x11 site
22:00:12 <fizzie> I just use X11.app in the full-screen-mode with evilwm; so it's just this black screen. (In Boston they'd already have arrested me.)
22:00:15 <ais523> what happens if you remove the ?client=safari bit
22:00:32 <ehird> fizzie: wait, you use OS X without aqua?
22:00:47 <ehird> and just earlier today I was talking about that in hypotheticals, saying it was possible but stupid :D
22:00:54 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
22:00:59 <GregorR> So do I, only swap X11.app with VMware running Debian :P
22:01:16 <fizzie> Just for this full-screen terminal usage. I keep flipping out of it for web-browsing and things like that.
22:01:24 <fizzie> It is a silly setup, I guess.
22:02:18 <ehird> who needs more than 80x24
22:02:34 <ais523> Befunge-93 programmers
22:02:39 <ehird> GregorR: you're bonkers.
22:03:11 <fizzie> Hm. Configurated the desktop to power on from the keyboard, but only if you type "power" (because otherwise the cat would be booting it up all the time); then configured it to support suspend-to-ram mode so I can make it go to sleep without having to spend dozens of seconds in booting; but now it turns out that it wakes up from suspend-to-ram (acpi S3 thing) on any keypress, so the cat will wake it up anyway.
22:07:31 -!- olsner has joined.
22:11:29 <oklopol> http://www.met.police.uk/campaigns/counter_terrorism/ <<< the posters, are they about actual terrorist threats, or possible ones?
22:11:53 <oklopol> also sounds like a bad time to look foreign
22:13:58 <oklopol> http://xkcd.com/532/ okay i give up, explain it to me
22:14:22 <ehird> oklopol: small piano, penis, I think
22:14:49 <ais523> oklopol: been logreading?
22:15:14 <ais523> I've been mostly discussing Enigma...
22:15:33 <oklopol> ehird: err the genie gave him a smaller penis?
22:15:50 <ehird> oklopol: a player for his small penis thus the last line; I may be totally misunderstanding
22:15:50 <oerjan> oklopol: it's the reversal of a well-known genie joke
22:15:53 <ehird> it is a pretty lame joke
22:16:08 <oklopol> oerjan: okay that's language i understand, now what's that joke
22:16:42 <oklopol> ehird: well i got that but assumed, and still do, that it's not that
22:17:04 <oklopol> but well i guess it could be that. i just assumed something was actually being misheard.
22:17:05 <GregorR> Usu xkcd isn't that stupid.
22:17:10 <oerjan> oklopol: http://www.afunnystuff.com/jokes/Bar-jokes/Genie-pianist.html
22:17:49 <oklopol> i thought it was one of those "if i had a dollar..." things, but without ever having an ending.
22:18:34 <GregorR> I guess it's supposed to be an inversion of that joke.
22:18:40 <GregorR> And that's why it's supposed to be funny.
22:19:17 <oklopol> i just never heard that joke
22:22:09 <oerjan> that link may not be a very good version though, it was just the first google hit on genie pianist
22:23:13 <oklopol> i don't care about the details really
22:25:09 <GregorR> http://xkcd.com/563/ Better xkcd sex joke :P
22:32:33 <ehird> does xfree86 still exist? ais523?
22:32:51 <ais523> ehird: I'm not sure I've ever seen it
22:32:57 <ais523> presumably the source is still hanging around somewhere
22:33:02 <ais523> although no idea if it still compiles
22:33:19 <ehird> ais523: they're still releasing
22:33:24 <ehird> http://www.xfree86.org/releases/rel480.html
22:33:51 <ehird> http://www.xfree86.org/xnews/ latest news from 2005 ^_^
22:34:01 <ehird> also, I'm totally pissed off that the x.org folks got "x.org"
22:34:03 <fizzie> The xfree86.org main page is rather retro.
22:34:05 <ehird> you can't do that, dammit!
22:34:10 <ehird> ADD MORE LETTERS OR GIVE THE REST OF US SOME
22:35:01 <ehird> ais523: wow, x.org's only existed since 2004
22:35:06 <ehird> that's when xfree86 changed license
22:35:35 <ehird> x.org are switching to ...
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22:38:15 <fizzie> Funny that Apple hasn't registered www.xn--u65c.com -- or in other words, www.ο£Ώ.com, where the character in there is that private-use character that contains the Apple "apple-with-a-bite-taken-out" logo in OS X fontsies.
22:38:31 <ehird> fizzie: It's not exactly worth the money.
22:38:45 <ehird> fizzie: Imagine writing a proposal to do that.
22:38:55 <fizzie> Well, I just tried to go there! If they had registered it, I might've purchased something from there. Maybe. Unlikely.
22:39:04 <ehird> "Let's waste $5 a year on a domain that only makes sense to OS X users, isn't widely supported, and that nobody goes to."
22:43:10 <fizzie> More strange: Ξ».org does not seem to be registered, though Ξ».com goes to some sort of portal-looking Ξ.com.
22:43:16 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah, yeah, ofc :P
22:43:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:43:45 <Deewiant> I don't know that by heart :-P
22:43:45 <ehird> fizzie: it's a squatted domain
22:43:54 <ehird> why you would squat an IDN I have no fuckin idea
22:45:07 -!- jix has quit ("...").
22:46:55 <ehird> Agh, this elliotth guy is freaky.
22:47:02 <fizzie> InterNIC's whois query returns an old record for Ξ».org (well, xn--wxa.org) which shows that it was registered already in 2001 by some Greek guy, then expired in 2007. Heh.
22:47:04 <ehird> Stop having my same first name -- down to the spelling -- and second initial, dammit.
22:47:26 <ehird> fizzie: that's like registering l.org (lowercase L)
22:47:53 <ehird> guys what do you do to do 'sudo foo>x'
22:47:58 <ehird> I do sudo zsh -c 'foo>x'
22:48:01 <ehird> but that's annoying
22:48:11 <Deewiant> Type sh instead of zsh and save a character
22:48:14 <fizzie> I usually do "sudo sh -c 'foo>x'" which is not really an improvement.
22:48:22 <ehird> sudo x | cp /dev/stdin foo
22:48:29 <ehird> Deewiant: I use zsh features. Sometimes. :P
22:48:57 <Deewiant> I typically don't when sudoing
22:49:14 <ehird> True, me neither. Still./
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22:49:36 <fizzie> Actually I more often do "sudo bash" followed by "foo > x". But still.
22:49:53 <ehird> maybe I should make gt
22:50:00 <ehird> which is "cp /dev/stdin"
22:50:05 <Deewiant> I guess it's shorter to do 'su<CR>foo>x<C-D>'
22:50:25 <ehird> alias sgt='sudo cp /dev/stdin'
22:50:33 <ehird> echo foo | sgt foo
22:50:43 <ehird> Deewiant: sudo -s, bitch
22:51:05 <ehird> "...able to work with Bazaar, BitKeeper, CVS, Mercurial, and Subversion repositories."
22:51:15 <ehird> I smell a certain thing is missing.
22:51:24 <ehird> (And also a certain one thing that nobody uses.)
22:51:31 <ehird> ((And another one that only idiots use.))
22:51:41 <ehird> GregorR: AnMaster does. Also Canonical.
22:51:43 <ehird> Apart from that, uh.
22:51:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:51:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Missing: git (duh); nobody uses: BitKeeper; idiots: CVS.
22:52:09 <ehird> they're so weird,.
22:52:25 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Git, Darcs, Monotone, Arch, ? <ehird> Deewiant: Missing: git (duh); nobody uses: BitKeeper; idiots: CVS.
22:52:44 <ehird> I think you're misinterpreting either Deewiant or me.
22:53:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway some people use git, Linux kernel, ehird. That's all I can think of.
22:53:18 <ehird> Barely anyone uses bzr.
22:53:23 <ehird> Deewiant: he's mocking:
22:53:30 <ehird> 22:51 GregorR: Do people use Bazaar?
22:53:30 <ehird> 22:51 ehird: GregorR: AnMaster does. Also Canonical.
22:53:45 <ehird> except that what I said about bazaar was true, and AnMaster's was false.
22:53:50 <AnMaster> just go look at launchpad and count non-Canonica projects
22:53:54 <fizzie> You could do something similar than env, which lets you "sudo env FOO=bar BAZ=quux command args"; maybe something like "into file command args" which will pretty much do "command args > file"; then you could "sudo into x foo".
22:53:59 <ehird> AnMaster: they only use it because launchpad does.
22:54:13 <ehird> also, most launchpad projects are tied to the canonical/ubuntu ecosystem.
22:54:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and why do they choose launchpad? Because it uses bzr
22:54:27 <AnMaster> so your argument made no sense.
22:54:29 <Deewiant> I think the first DVCS I tried was Monotone
22:54:41 <Deewiant> I didn't really get it and grudgingly set up a local SVN
22:54:45 <ehird> please, I can't deal with talking to someone with such a vague connection to reality
22:54:47 <Deewiant> Which I ended up not using much
22:54:54 <ehird> Deewiant: monotone is really weird. Arch is weirder though.
22:55:06 <AnMaster> ehird, also I find this flame war irritating. Go troll in #bzr instead.
22:55:09 <Deewiant> I think I may have looked at Darcs back then as well
22:55:15 <GregorR> Nothing can out-weird Arch/Bazaar.
22:55:15 <ehird> I went cvs β hg β darcs or something β wrote my own β git.
22:55:20 <ehird> I went svn β hg β darcs or something β wrote my own β git.
22:55:27 * AnMaster ignores ehird until he gets less irritating
22:55:31 <Deewiant> (Where 'back then' is something like 2003-2004?)
22:55:34 <ehird> AnMaster: you're seriously insecure
22:55:46 <Deewiant> Can't be 2003 actually, that'd be too early
22:55:47 <ehird> you don't need five. fucking. lines. to tell us all how much of a troll I am and that you're ignoring me
22:56:02 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, bazaar isn't very weird. It is like a mix of svn and hg IMO.
22:56:05 <GregorR> cvs -> svn -> [past this point I still use svn for certain things] -> darcs -> hg -> git -> hg
22:56:10 <ehird> AnMaster: You've never used non-NG bzr?
22:56:17 <ehird> Bazaar was an arch fork.
22:56:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, indeed hg is better than git :)
22:56:45 <Deewiant> Monotone (WTF?) -> SVN (meh) -> zip files, most of which got lost -> hg -> git
22:56:46 <ehird> It's embarrassing to see someone defend a tool they don't know shit about.
22:57:16 <ehird> My own was quite fun.
22:57:27 <Deewiant> I think the only thing I put into that SVN was a sudoku solver I wrote in D prior to CCBI
22:57:29 <ehird> It never really worked, but I actually needed to write my own, or use git.
22:57:34 <ehird> I wanted to import the whole Qt and KDE trees.
22:57:37 <ehird> Into a single repo.
22:57:40 <ehird> And have operations still go fast.
22:57:52 <Deewiant> Each commit was a full release, I imported it into git and ran diffstat a few days ago and the changes are 1000s of lines each
22:57:56 <ehird> GregorR: svn is dog slow
22:58:00 <ehird> and I didn't like git
22:58:02 <ehird> so I wrote my own.
22:58:03 <GregorR> ORLY? I thought svn scaled well.
22:58:09 <ehird> but it's still slow.
22:58:14 <Deewiant> I didn't really get version control back then but used it anyway because consensus seemed to be that it's a good idea
22:58:19 <AnMaster> svn does scale pretty well, cvs tends to be worse
22:58:24 <AnMaster> but it doesn't scale that well
22:58:32 <GregorR> ehird: If you're importing something huge, scalability is more important than raw speed (duh)
22:58:43 <ehird> lol, I just realised what this looks like to AnMaster
22:58:47 <ehird> 22:57 Deewiant: I think the only thing I put into that SVN was a sudoku solver I wrote in D prior to CCBI
22:58:48 <ehird> 22:57 GregorR: For that you need git.
22:58:48 <GregorR> Idonno, I never write anything unwiedly enough to care :P
22:58:50 <ehird> 22:57 GregorR: Or svn.
22:58:52 <Deewiant> When I started with CCBI I had got sick of SVN already and regressed to just versioned zip files
22:58:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, actually I have seen projects using svn for source code and cvs for data files
22:59:04 <ehird> for sudoku solvers settle for nothing other than git or svn!
22:59:11 <AnMaster> where the overhead of .svn (double size) was too large for data
22:59:18 <AnMaster> as in data was over 1 GB already
22:59:29 <Deewiant> Which somewhat sucks since I've lost old versions of CCBI due to that
22:59:34 <GregorR> My kitty is lying in the sun!
22:59:45 <Deewiant> I made a point of keeping a detailed changelog to mitigate that
23:00:08 <ehird> The mark of an idiot's mind: your only relation to one word is a pop culture reference.
23:00:15 <Deewiant> With the idea that if I ever need to find a change I can just use that
23:00:16 <ehird> And you must, must, must point it out. Every time.
23:00:27 <Deewiant> And the idea that I'd never need an old version anyway
23:00:34 <Deewiant> (Which has, in fact, proven true thus far)
23:00:53 <GregorR> Let's all make needlessly inflammatory statements.
23:01:14 <Deewiant> I tried to build my Sudoku solver, but the damn thing was last tried on a DMD 0.16x
23:01:24 <GregorR> <Deewiant> And the idea that I'd never need an old version anyway <Deewiant> (Which has, in fact, proven true thus far) // sounds like sheer luck.
23:01:26 <ehird> GregorR: he's /ignoring me. It's fun.
23:02:01 <Deewiant> GregorR: Seriously, what are they needed for?
23:02:50 <GregorR> Deewiant: You f***'d something up and introduced a bug and/or deleted code that it turned out you needed and/or made a change that had some subtle interactions you didn't realize, and need to go back to examine exactly what happened.
23:03:33 <Deewiant> I did, but I think my statement applies to any old version
23:04:03 <Deewiant> GregorR: I'm too good a programmer to do something like that ;-)
23:05:06 <ehird> I'm a shit programmer :P
23:05:08 <Deewiant> On a more serious note, changelogs have been good enough for me in that regard
23:05:42 <Deewiant> I don't think I've ever deleted large amounts of code that I'd need later
23:05:48 <Deewiant> For small amounts, I just rewrite it
23:05:57 <Deewiant> Probably ends up cleaner that way anyway
23:07:13 <Deewiant> Hmm, actually I think I used bisect once with CCBI to figure out a TRDS-related bug/weirdness
23:07:38 <Deewiant> I distinctly remember having done 'hg bisect' once, anyway :-P
23:09:07 <Deewiant> Hmm, I think GDC's latest release could compile my Sudoku solver out of the box, unless it's too new
23:10:48 <Deewiant> Haha, an entry from the changelog for the "next version to be released" in August 2006
23:10:51 <Deewiant> - Internal: following the fixing of Issue 314 in the D Bugzilla, finished
23:10:53 <Deewiant> making most imports selective. ******
23:11:08 <Deewiant> That issue currently has the most votes in the Bugzilla and still isn't fixed
23:11:50 <Deewiant> But yeah, anyway, GDC 0.19 could be worth a try
23:12:06 <ehird> someone should make a vcs in prolog
23:12:10 <ehird> slow as fuck but always right!
23:12:51 <ehird> "The reason many people have different opinions about the way to Heaven is because they have never heard the truth that is found in the Word of God, also called the Holy Bible. "
23:13:01 <ehird> http://heaventruth.org/
23:13:23 <Deewiant> I think I'll go to bed instead of commenting on that, or worse, reading it ->
23:13:43 <ehird> "7. People that have been redeemed by the Lord Jesus Christ can never lose their salvation."
23:13:51 <ehird> I accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my saviour.
23:17:35 <pikhq> Now, if you just did, bravo. Welcome to Christianity, brother.
23:18:20 <ehird> pikhq: is it seriously widely accepted that once you've done that, nothing you can do can keep you away from heaven?
23:18:23 <ehird> I find that hard to believe
23:19:41 <pikhq> ehird: Somewhat common amongst Protestants.
23:19:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:20:02 <pikhq> Fairly certain that's not believed in Catholicism.
23:20:10 <ehird> (23:17 pikhq: Now, if you just did, bravo. Welcome to Christianity, brother. β this was sarcasm right? you never know on the interwebs :P)
23:20:51 <pikhq> GregorR: Sweetness.
23:20:59 <ehird> how can that be partially sarcastic o.O
23:21:03 <pikhq> GregorR: I'll fetch the latest Plofiness once I'm done upgrading my Debian box.
23:21:19 <ehird> That thing still being made?
23:21:45 <pikhq> Slowly but surely.
23:22:43 <GregorR> ehird: I get back to it whenever I can.
23:22:56 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/plof/ , and CNFI is the C Native Function Interface.
23:23:03 <ehird> You mean... an FFI.
23:23:44 <ehird> CNFI is not a very nice name.
23:23:49 <ehird> May I suggest "C FFI".
23:24:41 <ehird> GregorR: Did my suggestions ever get implemented? :P
23:24:50 <GregorR> You may. But I don't see a major benefit between 'native' and 'foreign' ... I guess the one little nit to it is that the interpreter which supports C{N,F}FI may be written in (e.g.) Java, making the C{N,F}FI not really a /native/ function interface in some sense.
23:25:10 <ehird> GregorR: I made about a gazillion syntax suggestions about a year ago
23:25:17 <ehird> You said you liked some of them, iirc :P
23:25:26 <GregorR> Well, the syntax has changed quite a bit since then, so maybe :P
23:25:35 <GregorR> Although some things I'm sure you still won't like.
23:26:03 <ehird> GregorR: They mainly revolved around making "if" look like aproper control structure, with less () and ; cruft, which in turn made the whole of the syntax quite a lot more light-weight and, IMO, neither.
23:26:05 <GregorR> if((a), (bleh)) is now if (a) (bleh), so it still uses () instead of {} but allows them not to look quite so nasty.
23:26:22 <ehird> GregorR: this was before all that, I think.
23:26:38 <ehird> You still had {}s. :P
23:26:59 <GregorR> I still do have {}s, but they /only/ represent full, real functions.
23:27:22 <ehird> Hmph, you should have implemented my suggestions, they were nice :P
23:28:02 <ehird> GregorR: Well, I still see a lot of semicolon infestation :-P
23:28:38 <GregorR> The semicolons I'm not sure I want to change. They do eliminate a lot of grammatic ambiguity quickly.
23:29:04 <ehird> GregorR: My edits basically made a semicolon be implied if the current expression is complete.
23:29:36 <GregorR> That's super, except that function calls are functional-style, so the only way to tell that an expression is complete is if a semicolon is used or the containing block is closed.
23:29:37 <ehird> i.e., if it's waiting for something it carries over to the next line, but if we're not waiting for something (That is, we could accept something next if it came, but we don't need any more to be valid) then we plonk a semicolon in.
23:29:59 <ehird> we need more to be valid
23:30:07 <ehird> GregorR: duh, but that's not how it's resolved
23:30:12 <GregorR> Ahh, so it's if more is /needed/ to be valid.
23:30:40 <ehird> Lines so long you have to break them up are probably a red flag anyway, and you can always one of thems line continuation thingymabobs,.
23:31:23 <GregorR> The change is possible, but requires a vote of the Plof board.
23:31:38 <GregorR> The vote is in, we're deadlocked.
23:31:42 <ehird> GregorR: You and pikhq, I assume.
23:32:00 <ehird> GregorR: how many patches make up one vote?
23:32:06 <GregorR> Lemme do a quick grep of the copyright lines, actually IIRC pikhq is in ...
23:32:24 <GregorR> (But multiple patches does not multiply vote power)
23:32:30 <GregorR> Oh yeah, pikhq still has living code.
23:32:34 <GregorR> OK, waiting for one more vote :P
23:32:42 <ehird> GregorR: So if I made a patch implementing it, that'd count as a "FOR" vote, and it gets in. Unless pikhq votes against, in which case I guess you're the tiebreaker.
23:32:56 <ehird> GregorR: how's the parser thingy set up
23:33:00 <GregorR> It has to be a patch that actually gets accepted, that patch would be pending awaiting vote ;)
23:33:01 <oklopol> then why isn't he the tiebreaker now
23:33:14 <ehird> GregorR: aieeeeeeeee
23:33:17 <ehird> "photographing anything to do with transport is strictly forbidden." β london police
23:34:02 <ehird> i want a revolution plox
23:35:20 <ehird> GregorR: So yeah, how's that parser thang set up?
23:36:39 <GregorR> core/pul contains the entire core library. The order (which is relevant because the grammar is built incrementally) is in Makefile.pslcode, but suffice to say that pul.plof comes first, then object.plof, then the rest. pul.plof comes in with a /very/ basic grammar and builds things around some basic boxing, implemented by pul_eval, pul_funcwrap and a few other wrapping functions.
23:36:58 <ehird> GregorR: Parser. The actual parser infrastructure/
23:37:05 <ehird> I am wondering how easy it would be to mod to do this.
23:37:31 <GregorR> Well, the mod would be entirely to pul.plof, which is why I started there. Remember, the grammar of Plof is built at runtime by the core library :P
23:37:48 <ehird> Oh yeah, that crazy shit.
23:38:01 <ehird> (Metalogic does it better.)
23:38:08 <GregorR> Basically, you'd need to change how it uses "white" (the whitespace nonterminal), adding two different whites for "expression not terminated whitespace" and "expression terminated whitespace"
23:38:38 <GregorR> Then just change them as appropriate in the rest of the grammar (probably only need to make the standard-white -> nonterminated-white in a few places, actually)
23:38:39 <ehird> wouldn't it be to base.psl
23:38:44 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:38:58 <GregorR> Nah, that implements a particular definition of whitespace, but there's no reason to use it if it's not what you need.
23:39:09 <ehird> GregorR: oh god, it's a parser and a compiler in one
23:39:09 <GregorR> Touching base.apsl has been known to be hazardous to health :P
23:39:31 <ehird> .apsl looks like forth
23:39:36 <ehird> you should replace PSL with forth :P
23:39:41 <ehird> designed for plof.
23:39:42 <ehird> that would be cool.
23:39:50 <GregorR> That would be cool *shrugs*
23:40:00 <ehird> I wonder if there's a git-hg.
23:40:18 <GregorR> In fact, I could probably start with a very basic forth, add the PSLish bits that are necessary, and make very minimal changes to the rest for everything to work.
23:40:41 <ehird> GregorR: It's just that forth would be about as efficient and vastly more human-mungable than PSL
23:40:54 <ehird> And, well, it's Forth. Forth implementation techniques are pretty.
23:42:07 <ehird> GregorR: I might write that, or something. It doesn't look too hard.
23:42:14 <ehird> Is cplof maintained?
23:43:13 <GregorR> cplof is going to be the primary Plof "very soon"
23:43:31 <GregorR> But right now, cplof doesn't have a parser. I may or may not decide to keep it that way, depending on whether I tie Plof into a knot and put the parsing in Plof.
23:43:40 <ehird> GregorR: So, in this hypothetical Forth version, I could just ignore dplof.
23:43:46 <ehird> That's nice; I'm not too good at D.
23:44:46 <GregorR> dplof was nice for making an implementation quickly, but cplof will be better for portability, etc.
23:45:26 <ehird> GregorR: If I say the word "hsplof", how much will you kill me?
23:45:52 <GregorR> I'd love to see it, but I hardly thing that that's the best implementation strategy for the very-imperative PSL or Forth :P
23:47:13 * ehird decides that a very useful feature for a forth base language is <N and >N, for values of N from 0 to, say, 16.
23:47:26 <ehird> They're "stackpointer -= N" and "stackpointer += N", pretty much.
23:47:36 <ehird> So <1 is drop, and >1 regains that value.
23:47:54 <ehird> 1 2 3 <2 . >1 is "1 2 . 3" in final effect.
23:49:50 * ehird has some sort of compulsion to download high-quality, huge (3 digit gigs) source files of just about anything when presented with the oppertunity
23:50:57 <GregorR> Gay_group_porn_source_footage.raw 221G
23:53:09 <GregorR> I wonder how efficiently 3D "raster" video could be implemented using only simpl(ish) changes to (e.g.) MPEG-4
23:53:24 <ehird> GregorR: what do you mean?
23:54:02 <GregorR> Take a 3D scene, assign a color (and importantly, alpha) value to every cubic millimeter cell, and encode the whole thing in some way derived from MPEG-4.
23:54:05 <ehird> GregorR: So, Plof function calls are now 'f a b c'?
23:54:25 <ehird> GregorR: then why 20 False.ifTrue(psl { "BAD" print });
23:54:35 <ehird> surely False.ifTrue (psl { "BAD" print }); would make more sense
23:54:52 <GregorR> Probably just old *shrugs*
23:54:59 <ehird> GregorR: what would f(a,b,c) do?
23:55:03 <ehird> call f with the tuple (a,b,c)?
23:55:18 <GregorR> There are no tuples (yet?), and f(a, b, c) is an alias for f a b c
23:55:21 <ehird> GregorR: also, why can't it be:
23:55:30 <ehird> while taking a function seems reasonable
23:55:36 <ehird> it'd just be while (condition) { func(); }
23:55:44 <ehird> GregorR: final question -
23:55:48 <ehird> so "f()" is special cased?
23:55:51 <GregorR> Because when you return from a function, only that function's scope vanishes.
23:55:54 <ehird> consider f being a variable with a function
23:55:59 <ehird> "f" should reference f
23:56:09 <ehird> GregorR: what about the scope?
23:56:18 <ehird> while (foo) { return 2; }
23:56:21 <GregorR> while (a) { return 3; } <- returns 3 from the inner functiopn
23:56:25 <ehird> GregorR: Aight, first question.
23:56:36 <ehird> GregorR: It seems to me like (...) vs {...} is thin vs thick in a new skin.
23:57:07 <GregorR> () isn't a function, it's an expression that just may or may not be evaluated due to the laziness of the language.
23:57:15 <GregorR> Which is in some ways similar I suppose.
23:57:21 <GregorR> Internally it's all the same.
23:57:30 <GregorR> But semantically it's supposed to have different implications.
23:57:32 <ehird> GregorR: So, what you're saying is that Plof is Haskell.
23:57:42 <ehird> Except not as good at being Haskell as Haskell is :P
23:57:54 <GregorR> Because it's not Haskell :P
23:58:05 <ehird> GregorR: I dunno, passing imperative stuff around and having it silently evaluated or not seems pretty insidious to me
23:58:28 <ehird> GregorR: Thought regarding thick vs thin:
23:58:37 <ehird> The *caller* could decide.
23:58:41 <ehird> While would just do f(), being thin.
23:58:49 <ehird> f() would be thick.
23:58:54 <ehird> But you could do f.thin() or whatever.
23:59:08 <GregorR> I don't recall, it wasn't good :P
23:59:17 <GregorR> You could override at either site I beileve.
23:59:36 <ehird> Well, having f() = thick and f.thin() = thin lets you do {} for control structures, and they just have to do .thin()
23:59:42 <ehird> while still having {} be functiony functions
00:00:12 <GregorR> Actually, I'll pastebin this.
00:00:43 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Hmm, I think GDC's latest release could compile my Sudoku solver out of the box, unless it's too new <--- *blink*
00:01:28 <GregorR> Actually, never mind, my caveat is wrong.
00:01:30 <AnMaster> why not use ldc for it Deewiant?
00:01:42 <ehird> because it's too new.
00:01:55 <ehird> GregorR: I'm not convinced about it myself
00:02:00 <ehird> I guess I'll implement it and see :P
00:02:07 <ehird> *ahem* I am contractually obligated:
00:02:21 <ehird> ... if we had a Forthalike as the base language, I could just do it all from a REPL session.
00:02:31 <ehird> *Note: Probably a lie, you can't mess with things that internal in general :P
00:02:43 <GregorR> It could all be done from a REPL session as-is, there just doesn't happen to be such a REPL :P
00:02:50 <GregorR> Good luck. Nobody but me has touched pul.plof, so you may go insane :P
00:03:01 <GregorR> dplof -I works, but is ... limited.
00:03:50 <ehird> but writing a repl is super trivial :|
00:04:19 <GregorR> I mean it doesn't have e.g. history.
00:04:39 <ehird> Well, I'll see about giving it some editline love.
00:05:00 <GregorR> No great reason to, dplof will go into obsolete mode when cplof is fully-functional.
00:05:12 <ehird> Well, then I'll write a portable REPL.
00:05:45 <AnMaster> grr I hate that half of the convos make no sense when ignoring ehird
00:05:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Now you know how I feel, AnMaster.
00:06:23 <AnMaster> ehird, we are deadlocked into-non-ingore
00:07:34 <ehird> I guess I have work to do on Plof. Today, I will clone the hg repo and peek at it before going to bed.
00:07:45 <ehird> GregorR: how do I submit commits
00:08:09 <AnMaster> ehird, why would you need that?
00:08:32 <AnMaster> why would you need to work on plof?
00:08:37 <ehird> Hey GregorR, what's the address to clone?
00:08:37 <GregorR> ehird: hg bundle. I could give you commit access if you need it. Richards@codu.org
00:08:41 <ehird> AnMaster: 'Cuz I have ideas.
00:08:45 <GregorR> https://codu.org/projects/plof/hg/
00:08:50 <ehird> GregorR: yes. what's the hg url
00:09:04 <GregorR> (Isn't that on the site somewhere? >_>)
00:09:08 <oklopol> <AnMaster> grr I hate that half of the convos make no sense when ignoring ehird <<< probably the GregorR half that's not making sense because you can't see ehird right?
00:09:16 <ehird> GregorR: http://codu.org/plof/hg/ is an http interface
00:09:27 <ehird> GregorR: is it gettable?
00:09:31 * ehird relearns mercurial
00:09:41 <GregorR> Stick an s on it if you want security for pushing purposes *shrugs*
00:10:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, however you are misinterpreting
00:10:06 <GregorR> That's basically the only reason I use mercurial over anything else in particular, putting up a server is as easy as dropping a .cgi somewhere :P
00:10:23 <AnMaster> I meant half of the convos between any n persons in this channel
00:10:24 <ehird> git can do that I think :P
00:10:40 <GregorR> Idonno, if it can I haven't seen it, I always see git:// URLs *shrugs*
00:10:54 <ehird> Strange; I mostly see http:// ones.
00:11:08 <ehird> Well, 'part from github.
00:11:11 <ehird> Which uses git://.
00:11:25 <oklopol> AnMaster: was supposed to be a joke, but turned out not to be at all funny and somewhat true
00:11:46 <ehird> GregorR: So .apsl is pretty much textual PSL, right?
00:11:55 <GregorR> Yes. It's really gross, and really limited.
00:12:03 <ehird> / Object is true for logic unless it's False
00:12:19 <GregorR> Note that False is a specific object ;)
00:12:51 <ehird> -DPLOF_FREE_INTS (default)
00:12:51 <ehird> Use ints instead of objects. This is optimal and spec-compliant, but
00:12:52 <ehird> has the disadvantage of providing ints that are one bit shorter than in
00:12:55 <ehird> either of the other methods.
00:13:00 <ehird> GregorR: just make all ints odd; mallocs are even, after all.
00:13:06 <ehird> Of course, then you can't use even integers.
00:13:17 <GregorR> That's essentially what I did do.
00:13:20 <ehird> 8 weeksGregor Richardscplof: Autoconf'd.
00:13:23 <ehird> GregorR: This is meant to be a feature?
00:13:25 <ehird> also, I meant directly
00:13:30 <ehird> as in, you can use 1, 3, ...
00:13:45 <ehird> also, srsly, autoconf? x_x
00:14:02 <GregorR> Shall we have a giant war over autoconf vs ... cmake? What's your poison?
00:14:48 <ehird> GregorR: I don't really have a particular affiliation beyond "not autoconf". I generally go for pure Makefiles :P
00:15:06 <GregorR> I have pure, still-working makefiles sitting about, but they're not portable *shrugs*
00:15:28 <ehird> I've never really had a portability problem with makefiles :P
00:16:12 <GregorR> cplof runs on (at least) Linux, Windows, *BSD, Solaris, DOS, ...
00:16:30 <ehird> GregorR: Wait, Windows-alikes?
00:16:39 <ehird> Think I'll stick to dplof...
00:16:50 <GregorR> dplof runs on Windows too :P
00:17:03 <ehird> Yeah, but phobos/tango hides all that.
00:17:23 <GregorR> There's not really any Windows-specific code, it's mainly about the compilation garbage.
00:17:31 <ehird> GregorR: Are there any known users on Windows?
00:17:44 <GregorR> There are two known users, both on Linux, I just like portability :P
00:17:47 <ehird> GregorR: Also, in that case I'd either
00:17:50 <ehird> (1) use cygwin or mingw
00:17:59 <ehird> (2) provide a separate windows makefile, if all that changes is the build system
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00:19:31 <ehird> GregorR: Does plof have continuations?
00:20:08 <GregorR> I'd need a few changes to expose things properly for that, it should be doable I just haven't done it.
00:20:09 <ehird> GregorR: Guess what I'll include in the Forth?
00:20:30 <ehird> (Yeah, it means that Plof code calling C code calling Plof code needs lots of boilerplate, but who gives a shit?)
00:21:03 <GregorR> The best sorting algorithms don't use comparison.
00:21:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: bubble
00:21:26 <bsmntbombdood> where comparisons are extrememly slow, and also reliable
00:22:45 <bsmntbombdood> bubble sort might actually be reasonable, because a bad comparison only screws you up a tiny bit
00:24:43 <ehird> GregorR: But, even on Windows Id on't see why to support non-gcc stuff.
00:24:43 <ehird> There's a ton of compilers for Windows and none are any good :P
00:24:43 <pikhq> GregorR: I vote to abstain.
00:24:43 <ehird> pikhq: How would a patch change your view? :P
00:24:56 <pikhq> GregorR: Also, about doing 3D video in MPEG-4... That's part of MPEG-4. ;)
00:25:20 <ehird> GregorR: Btw, your cubic square thing of space sounds like voxwels
00:26:02 <bsmntbombdood> pick 2 random elements, swap them if the aren't in order
00:26:14 <ehird> ld: in /dev/null, file too small
00:26:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: It's O(infinity).
00:26:41 * pikhq was going through logs.
00:26:57 <ehird> 00:24 ehird: pikhq: How would a patch change your view? :P
00:27:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd-even_sort parallel
00:27:39 <GregorR> ehird: On Windows only GCC is supported, come to think of it the only caveat there IIRC was that there's some trick to linking against libgc.
00:27:54 <ehird> GregorR: You mean apart from "-lgc"?
00:27:57 <GregorR> pikhq: Oh yeah, I knew there was a term, voxels, yeah. There's 3D in MPEG4?
00:28:01 <oklopol> ehird: make a static version pls :P
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00:28:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: actually, you want something that's resistant in the face of lying nodes, right?
00:28:48 <oklopol> well umm. you know substitute an x-axis for time axis.
00:28:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Try gnome sort, except with many gnomes.
00:28:58 <ehird> [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnome_sort ]
00:30:21 <pikhq> GregorR: Yeah; MPEG4 part 11, IIRC.
00:31:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Work will be duplicated, but it'll always get it right if you have more honest nodes than lying ones.
00:31:43 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what's the issue in this case?
00:31:49 <ehird> unless 4chan invade or sth
00:31:57 <ehird> online in that sense
00:32:04 <ehird> sorry the distributed talk clouded mah vissn
00:32:16 <bsmntbombdood> and doesn't need to have the perfectly sorted, it should just always stay as close as possible
00:32:17 <GregorR> pikhq: "It is based on VRML and part 11 of the MPEG-4 standard." This format is far more sensible than mine :P
00:32:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why isn't it online
00:32:27 <ehird> s/while i < size/forevah/
00:32:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: err not when given an infinite list.
00:33:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i don't get it
00:33:43 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: i want to rank items based on human's comparisons of them
00:33:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I don't get why you can't use gnome sort
00:41:14 <bsmntbombdood> it might be best to just cache ratings and sort later though
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00:54:03 <pikhq> I'm still fond of quantum bogosort.
00:54:05 <oerjan> well, n*log n essentially means reducing redundancy, which means not revealing lies...
00:54:36 <pikhq> shuffle(list);if(!sorted(list))destroy_universe();
00:55:27 <lament> this destroy_universe() command seems somewhat unsafe...
00:55:41 <pikhq> // confirm many worlds theory before using
00:56:51 * oerjan guesses that if that theoretically worked, the amplitudes of any universes in which anyone _tried_ a quantum bogosort would probably be low, even if they succeeded
00:57:29 <pikhq> Well, yeah. It's a very unlikely algorithm.
00:57:32 <lament> i really don't like that programming language
00:57:36 <pikhq> And makes itself even less likely as it's used. Hooray!
00:57:58 <lament> there needs to be some sort of check showing that some universe would remain undestroyed afterwards
00:58:10 <lament> otherwise it's really kind of dangerous
00:58:26 <oerjan> lament: unitary evolution should take care of that
01:00:41 <oerjan> basically with unitary evolution, even if some things cancel out, the sums of squared amplitudes of the remaining states must be preserved (as 1, if you start with that)
01:01:11 <pikhq> In some universe, there wouldn't be the bug causing all universes executing the code to be destroyed.
01:01:51 <pikhq> Hell, if the many worlds theory is confirmed, one could end all code with destroy_universe(); and there would magically be no bugs in the universes that continued to exist!
01:02:27 <oerjan> well, no undetected bugs
01:03:22 <pikhq> Well, no bugs that let the end of code be reached.
01:04:17 <pikhq> As phrased, there would be no code *without* bugs if you did that.
01:05:22 <oerjan> well at least you would have solved the halting problem
01:05:39 <bsmntbombdood> http://warp.povusers.org/SortComparison/integers.html
01:05:50 <bsmntbombdood> looks like merge sort consistently makes the least comparisons
01:11:52 <bsmntbombdood> but i don't think it will perform well with unreliable comparisons
01:13:48 <oerjan> as i said, i think it will never reveal a lie
01:14:24 <oerjan> because it's organized such that no comparison is ever done which could contradict a previous one
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01:22:08 <oerjan> i think it's the same for any sort which removes redundant comparisons
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01:36:39 <GregorR> pikhq: So you're neutral w.r.t. semi-vs-newline?
01:40:26 <Ilari> bsmntbombdood: Maybe result of any reordering that causes at most O(n) inversions when appiled to sorted sequence?
01:41:52 <pikhq> GregorR: Slightly partial towards semicolons, but only slightly.
01:42:09 <Ilari> bsmntbombdood: In the case of those tests, it was array with last 256 entries suffled.
01:43:57 <Ilari> bsmntbombdood: How "almost sorted" can be defined, and the defintion in that test.
01:45:58 <GregorR> pikhq, ehird: I'm just imagining situations where newlines create some /very/ unintuitive results, e.g. http://www.pastebin.ca/1394513
01:48:37 <pikhq> GregorR: Well, if newlines produce poor results, don't use them.
01:50:42 <GregorR> I'm not sure whether this is poor or not, because I'm not sure what intuition people would have about that code.
01:51:44 <GregorR> It's just unintuitive to /me/
01:57:47 <oklopol> i'd say it's a list, not an application of a
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01:58:19 <GregorR> Heh, by no proposal is it a list :P
01:58:52 <pikhq> Looking at the example, it seems the correct interpretation is the obvious one.
01:59:28 <pikhq> That might be from my experience with Tcl, where a newline and a semicolon are equivalent.
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02:07:33 <oklopol> GregorR: three separate expressions?
02:07:53 <oklopol> yeah that's even more intuitive.
02:08:11 <GregorR> Well, if everybody agrees that that's the intuitive parsing, then OK.
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02:16:21 <Sgeo> Is it bad if a .htaccess is publically viewable?
02:16:57 <GregorR> Depends on what the .htaccess does.
02:17:15 <GregorR> Also, I'm not even sure if you can configure Apache to make them accessible in any condition.
02:17:25 <Sgeo> It blocks 1 IP address, I don't know why
02:17:59 <GregorR> Well, it's like anything else, it's bad for that to be publicly viewable if you need people not to publicly see it :P
02:19:19 <Sgeo> The person running my server doesn't know why it's viewable, or why a single IP is blocked
02:26:05 <GregorR> And the blocked IP is 127.0.0.1
02:26:20 <bsmntbombdood> this code has radically different behavior when compiled with and without optimization
02:28:16 <pikhq> Would the code in question happen to be from ffmpeg?
02:35:41 <oerjan> iirc if(*ar > *++ar) is undefined behavior
02:40:23 <bsmntbombdood> that algorith does 1.3 million comparisons for a 45 element list
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03:06:57 <GregorR> Can somebody translate this from psuedoSpanish to English? "ooooooooooooo que bacano lo boy aitalar para que mi pc me corra mas rapido jajaja no pero enserio esta bacano"
03:07:49 <oklopol> was psuedo on purpose, it sounds kinda spanish.
03:08:15 <oklopol> los psuedos son mis amigos.
03:08:57 <oklopol> anyway i can translate all words that contain up to four characters.
03:09:22 <oklopol> next year i'm gonna learn all fives probably.
03:09:56 <oklopol> so anyway i have an 8 hour day at uni pseudotomorrow, starting in about 3 hours
03:10:20 <oklopol> i think this is kinda cool considering i slept 3 hours last night, while i'm used to sleeping about 10
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03:26:13 <GregorR> Y'know what bothers me? "Charity" events where they require people to do something unrelated and non-money-producing in order to gain money for the charity.
03:26:36 <GregorR> Like walks for charity. A walk for charity is some company holding money for ransom until you walk a mile.
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04:03:12 <bsmntbombdood> iterated merge sort is faster than iterated gnome sort for small arrays, but slower for large
04:03:26 <bsmntbombdood> the more unreliable comparisons are, the more marked the difference
04:06:17 <bsmntbombdood> probably because gnome sort is O(n) when the input is almost sorted, and merge sort isn't
04:14:15 <bsmntbombdood> i don't even know if there are any O(n) best, O(n log n) worst case algorithms
04:26:25 <kerlo> At least it gets people to walk a mile.
04:27:01 <kerlo> As for the pseudoSpanish, I'll tale a look.
04:30:14 <kerlo> GregorR: "oh how cool I'm going to [?] it so that my PC will run faster hahaha no but seriously it's cool"
04:30:46 <kerlo> I imagine that by "italar" he meant "instalar".
04:31:18 <GregorR> OK, I guess that's about what most of the other comments on that video looked like :P
04:32:10 <kerlo> So "I'm going toitall it". :-P
04:32:53 <GregorR> The problem with web translators is they can't translate things that were written crappsily in the first place :P
04:33:33 <kerlo> Ideally, translators from Spanish will recognize misspellings that don't affect pronunciation, like "boy a aser" for "voy a hacer".
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08:48:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: a) LDC is based on far too new a frontend and b) LDC doesn't support Phobos directly, I'd have to use Tangobos which is also probably too new
08:49:06 <Deewiant> GDC is just something which could probably work directly
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09:55:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about backward/forward compatibility? ;P
09:56:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: In a language whose version number starts with 0?
09:57:05 <AnMaster> ok fair enough I gues... <C-propaganda>I have managed to run complex old C programs with only tiny changes to the code to make it compile.</C-propaganda>
09:57:27 <Deewiant> If it's 90s or newer that's trivial
09:57:39 <Deewiant> C hasn't changed at all since then
09:58:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but posix had, and the *nix specific code was were most of the tiny changes were.
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10:03:52 <Deewiant> I /do/ have a windows binary which runs fine under Wine, FWIW :-P
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10:30:16 <psygnisfive> "The tests involved head-on crashes between the fortwo and a 2009 Mercedes C Class, the Fit and a 2009 Honda Accord and the Yaris and the 2009 Toyota Camry. The tests were conducted at 40 miles per hour (17 kilometers per liter), representing a severe crash."
10:31:06 <psygnisfive> originates from using google as a converted. type in 40 mpg (a typo for 40 mph) and you get that.
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11:59:05 <oerjan> *pseudo-, you damn iliterates!
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12:03:13 <oerjan> <bsmntbombdood> i don't even know if there are any O(n) best, O(n log n) worst case algorithms
12:03:40 <oerjan> wouldn't even mergesort have an O(n) best case?
12:04:04 <Deewiant> Mergesort's best case is also O(n lg n)
12:04:50 <Deewiant> It still does that many comparisons
12:05:26 <oerjan> i thought since it could stop if one of the merged lists is exhausted, but that only cuts by half i guess
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12:14:27 <fizzie> The "check for sortedness, use any O(n log n) worst-case algorithm otherwise" "algorithm" has a O(n) best-case (sorted list) and O(n log n) worst case.
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13:05:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, what happened to the O(n) scan when it finds list is unsorted? I'm not sure (since I know some stuff get cancelled in big-O notation, but don't remember exact rules for that) but shouldn't it be included in O(n log n) somehow?
13:10:50 <fizzie> Using O(n) time and then O(n log n) time after that is still O(n log n) asymptotically, since the O(n log n) part grows faster. At least so I very much believe.
13:15:36 <fizzie> Though I guess the point of the question was more like "is there any algorithm that *non-contrivedly* happens to have the O(n) best-case behaviour".
13:22:03 <Slereah_> As a physicist, I want my O's to grow rapidly, not slowly
13:31:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, right, that was what I suspected
13:37:27 <Ilari> The rule is that when adding complexities, take the fastest-growing one.
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14:20:49 <ehird> 17:45:58 <GregorR> pikhq, ehird: I'm just imagining situations where newlines create some /very/ unintuitive results, e.g. http://www.pastebin.ca/1394513
14:20:58 <ehird> GregorR: this is why f( shouldn't be idiomatic
14:21:14 <ehird> GregorR: one alternative is that if the next line is indented further it's a continuation
14:21:27 <ehird> but I think that's intuitive
14:21:33 <ehird> just because foo(... is unintuitive
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14:25:12 <ehird> 08:57 Deewiant: 60s?
14:25:20 <ehird> Er, very limited authorship possibilities.
14:25:23 <ehird> 02:19 bsmntbombdood: ok gnome sort is a _touch_ better than bozo sort
14:25:23 <ehird> 02:19 bsmntbombdood: bozo: 14918109, gnome: 1200
14:37:37 <ehird> GregorR: You thar?
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14:49:01 <ehird> "Court jails Pirate Bay founders"
14:50:00 <ehird> No. Not under any sane interpretation.
14:50:03 <ehird> Linking is not illegal.
14:51:00 <ehird> "On friday we will get the verdict in the ongoing trial. It will not be the final decision, only the first before the losing party will appeal. It will have no real effect on anything besides setting the tone for the debate, so we hope we win of course. "
14:51:27 <ehird> "That's outrageous, in my point of view. Of course we will appeal," he was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency. "This is the first word, not the last. The last word will be ours."
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15:31:13 <GregorR> That's the differenced between "jailed" and "imprisoned"
15:31:44 <GregorR> "Jailed" just means "The court fears that these people are a flight risk, so we're not going to let them go anywhere before their trial."
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15:37:23 <ehird> GregorR: I'ma work on Plof.
15:38:28 <ehird> GregorR: Hmm, why aren't the cplof/dplof binaries in .hgignore?
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15:48:31 <ehird> GregorR: MAGIC PING.
15:48:39 <GregorR> ehird: Because I don't find myself going "hg addremove *OH SHIT*" a lot.
15:49:14 <GregorR> You've been waiting a long time for me to wake up, yeesh X-D
15:49:26 <ehird> GregorR: Erm, 10 minutes?
15:49:51 <GregorR> Your first directed message to me was an hour and thirty minutes ago.
15:50:41 <GregorR> Anyway, f(a\nb\nc) certainly shouldn't be idiomatic. In fact, it makes no sense whether you're coming from C-land or Haskell/ML/etc-land.
15:51:03 <GregorR> So I think that example was basically nonsense :P
15:51:54 <ehird> So, cplof has no parser? So you can't really test it
15:52:22 <GregorR> ./dplof/plofc plof_include/std.psl <your favorite .plof file> -o foo.psl; ./cplof/src/psli foo.psl
15:52:56 <ehird> GregorR: What horrific D environment do I need to compile dplof?
15:53:09 <GregorR> Tango + DSSS. If you're on x86_64, I can just hand you some binaries.
15:53:26 <GregorR> (This is why I'm moving away from D :P )
15:53:32 <ehird> GregorR: Linux binaries, I assume.
15:53:42 <ehird> Not very useful then :P
15:53:46 <ehird> GregorR: Does DSSS work with LDC?
15:54:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Yay! How many babies do I gotsa sacrifice?
15:54:36 <GregorR> IIRC the .conf for that is only in SVN.
15:54:45 <Deewiant> If you got rebuild working than DSSS should work out of the box.
15:54:58 <ehird> Deewiant: I trashed my ldc setup when it started eating my young
15:55:13 <ehird> GregorR: I assume you can't do the fancy DSSS bootstrap thing with ldc.
15:55:24 <GregorR> No, DSSS is (still) Phobos.
15:55:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Why ask whether DSSS works if you don't have a working LDC? :-P
15:55:44 <ehird> Deewiant: Because I want to know what I need to do
15:55:53 <ehird> GregorR: Right, so, tangobos.
15:56:05 <Deewiant> ehird: Since you're on a Mac you're screwed anyway ;-)
15:56:26 <ehird> Also, I could be on a Mac running Linux, y'know. :P
15:56:46 <Deewiant> Well, it just seems that D stuff tends to work less on OS X.
15:57:13 <ehird> D stuff tends to work less.
15:57:30 <ehird> http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s126/wow_jbleau/I_quit_School.png
15:57:34 <GregorR> Seems I need to get choppin' on either a parser in C or a parser in Plof, with preference towards the latter.
15:58:08 <ehird> GregorR: A parser in Ploforth. <_<
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15:58:47 <GregorR> ehird: If Plof is retargeted properly, it shouldn't matter what the underlying language is.
15:59:04 <ehird> GregorR: Eh? So messing with PSL is discouraged in user code?
15:59:17 <ehird> That seems to defeat the point of the magical meta syntax-swapping Plof magick.
15:59:35 <GregorR> You don't usually write JVM bytecode directly into your Java code.
15:59:48 <ehird> GregorR: Sure, but you kept saying how nice it was to swap syntax out using psl. :P
16:00:03 <GregorR> You can swap syntax out using Plof now.
16:00:25 <ehird> Well, you can't write the parser in Plof without a shakily brittle preparsed bootstrap process.
16:00:55 <GregorR> It's the "shakily brittle" I'd like to get rid of X-D
16:01:02 <ehird> GregorR: So write it in Ploforth. :P
16:01:13 <GregorR> I don't think that's the be-all end-all to making it unbrittle.
16:01:19 <GregorR> Or even would make much of a difference.
16:01:26 <GregorR> It would just make the underlying language marginally more powerful.
16:01:29 <ehird> GregorR: Well, Plof parser in Plof has no way of parsing it.
16:01:38 <ehird> Plof parser in Ploforth lets you use the Ploforth parser to parse it so you can parse Plof.
16:01:39 <GregorR> The Plof parser in Plof can be compiled to PSL.
16:01:48 <ehird> GregorR: Yes, but that's brittle-r.
16:01:54 <ehird> What if syntax changes the way it's parsed?
16:01:58 <ehird> You can't parse it with the existing one.
16:02:08 <GregorR> The existing one, which conveniently you already compiled to PSL.
16:02:11 <ehird> Ploforth would seem the right choice for the implementation langauge of Plof things.
16:02:51 <GregorR> You're just suggesting that I write that parser in $PLACE_FAVORITE_TARGET_LANGUAGE_HERE, which seems weird since Plof just compiles to that anyway.
16:03:29 <ehird> GregorR: Because writing the X parser in X is a doorway to a world of pain.
16:03:49 <ehird> What if the syntax of X changes so that your new X parser --written with the new X syntax-- cannot be parsed with the old pre-parsed X parser?
16:04:03 <ehird> You need to write two parsers.
16:04:08 <GregorR> Remember, by "parser" I mean "runtime-malleable parsing system"
16:04:10 <ehird> One to bootstrap the process by parsing the Plof parser
16:04:19 <ehird> GregorR: Er, shouldn't the whole thing be in that?
16:04:27 <ehird> Start with Ploforth, add the PUL syntax in it.
16:04:36 <ehird> (s/Ploforth/APSL etc/, too)
16:04:55 <GregorR> I'm going to call the lower-level language LLL to avoid taking sides. Now, let me explain:
16:05:13 <GregorR> Plof is written with first some LLL code that builds up a grammar, then Plof, which all compiles to LLL.
16:05:24 <GregorR> Now, I want to write a malleable, Plof parser in Plof.
16:05:33 <GregorR> That will then be compiled, first time by dplof, to LLL.
16:05:57 <GregorR> Now, that code is loaded into, e.g., cplof, and provides not a parser for Plof necessarily, but a runtime-malleable parser.
16:06:07 <ehird> 16:05 GregorR: Plof is written with first some LLL code that builds up a grammar, then Plof, which all compiles to LLL.
16:06:08 <ehird> 16:05 GregorR: Now, I want to write a malleable, Plof parser in Plof.
16:06:11 <ehird> WHy can't they be the same thing
16:06:21 <ehird> There's no reason to haev an unchangable parser at any level apart from LLL
16:06:28 <ehird> then the LLL should build the malleable parser
16:06:29 <GregorR> It's NOT an unchangeable parser >_<
16:06:49 <GregorR> Sorry, by "Plof parser" I meant "parser suitable for use in Plof"
16:06:53 <ehird> GregorR: Sec -- I compile Rebuild first, and then DSSS right?
16:06:58 <ehird> a parsing _library_?
16:07:06 <ehird> I don't think that's a language concern
16:07:24 <GregorR> It's not /really/ a parsing library, but if that term seems closer to you, sure.
16:07:33 <ehird> GregorR: What's it for
16:08:14 <GregorR> You feed it parsing rules, then you feed it unparsed code, and it spits out the result of applying the parsing rules. It's the same as the parser in dplof.
16:08:31 <ehird> Tell you what, I'll think about all this when I understand it.
16:08:35 <ehird> Now... I have ldc.
16:08:53 <ehird> I need the ldc-posix-tango thing.
16:09:13 <ehird> ln -s `pwd`/ldc-posix-tango $HOME/.rebuild
16:09:41 <ehird> I have to compile rebuild/DSSS.
16:09:41 <ehird> GregorR: Should I use the svn version?
16:10:03 <GregorR> Yeah, it should be stable.
16:11:09 <ehird> A dsss/Makefile.gdc.posix
16:11:10 <ehird> A dsss/Makefile.dmd.win
16:11:34 <ehird> Ah, some sort of thing in ldc/
16:11:39 <ehird> I only wish I understood it
16:12:14 <GregorR> Just .../rebuild -full -Irebuild sss/main.d -ofdsss
16:12:14 <ehird> GregorR: Hokay, so, how would I compile DSSS with LDC?
16:12:20 <ehird> I don't have rebuild, see.
16:12:34 <ehird> GregorR: what will that compile with
16:12:47 <GregorR> rebuild is based on the DMD frontend, which is C++
16:13:37 <ehird> Neither DMD nor GDC found in $PATH. Not configuring a default.
16:13:37 <ehird> Please add ONE of the following lines to your rebuild.conf/default file:
16:13:44 <ehird> Aww, poor rebuild is confused.
16:14:10 <ehird> GregorR: Er, wuz "rebuild.conf/default"
16:14:24 <GregorR> echo 'profile=ldc-posix-tango' > ~/.rebuild/default
16:14:32 <GregorR> And copy rebuild.conf/tango in there for good measure :P
16:14:46 <ehird> cp ~/Downloads/ldc/ldc-posix-tango rebuild.conf
16:14:52 <ehird> then add profile=blah to rebuild.conf/default
16:15:16 <ehird> GregorR: OK, then I'll need a user tango library thing, right?
16:15:30 <ehird> GregorR: So compile DSSS, net install tango or whatnot?
16:15:30 <GregorR> .................................... I have no idea what that means.
16:15:43 <GregorR> Isn't tango installed as part of LDC?
16:15:47 <ehird> "While LDC does use the Tango runtime per default, you still need to compile the Tango user library to build most applications. "
16:15:49 <ehird> http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc#UsingTango
16:16:01 <ehird> Then the next section about using rebuild also mentions tango, I have no fuckin' idea.
16:16:08 <ehird> But I get I shouldn't do the using tango stuff
16:16:10 <ehird> and instead do it with rebuild
16:16:14 <GregorR> TBH, I don't know how to help you there, I guess you'll need to get Tango and compile it separately.
16:16:38 <ehird> GregorR: Well, won't "dsss net install tango version thing 0.99.8" work?
16:16:51 <GregorR> Only after you compile dsss.
16:17:03 <ehird> ln -s rebuild /usr/local/bin/rerun
16:17:03 <ehird> ln: /usr/local/bin/rerun: File exists
16:17:13 <ehird> ... why is it linking?
16:17:18 <ehird> It shouldn't link. This directory won't exist soon.
16:17:42 <GregorR> ln -s rebuild links something to rebuild in whatever directory the target is, not the current directory.
16:17:50 <GregorR> ln -s $PWD/rebuild links to rebuild in the current directory.
16:18:05 <ehird> what's ln's arg order again?
16:18:22 <ehird> sudo ln -s /usr/local/bin/{rebuild,rerun}
16:18:26 <GregorR> Except that 'src' is just a name, not a file.
16:18:38 <GregorR> That's not good, if you ever move things from /usr/local/bin/bleh to anywhere else.
16:19:31 <GregorR> Aaaanywho, here's the problem:
16:19:35 <ehird> Okay I have rebuild
16:19:39 <GregorR> DSSS is meant to be built against Phobos, b
16:19:40 <ehird> Oh, problem, shit.
16:19:51 <ehird> Tangobos? Tangobos.
16:19:59 <GregorR> Yeah, but for that you need Tango.
16:20:08 <GregorR> So (indirectly) DSSS requires Tango on LDC.
16:20:08 <ehird> I think I have tango.
16:20:12 <ehird> Just system tango or something.
16:20:16 <GregorR> <ehird> "While LDC does use the Tango runtime per default, you still need to compile the Tango user library to build most applications. "
16:20:27 <ehird> "rebuild -full -Irebuild sss/main.d -ofdsss" should work, right?
16:20:39 <GregorR> Certainly not if you don't have tangobos, but it may do something :)
16:21:00 <ehird> sss/main.d(31): module file cannot read file 'std/file.d'
16:21:17 <ehird> GregorR: They want me to build user tango with rebuild
16:21:44 <GregorR> I would continue to be helpful, but unfortunately I actually need to leave >_>
16:21:52 <GregorR> What with school and all that.
16:21:58 <ehird> GregorR: one question.
16:22:07 <ehird> Can tango be built with rebuild?
16:22:27 <GregorR> AFAIK, Tango for LDC is built by a complicated mess of shell scripts and makefiles.
16:22:42 <ehird> It offers rebuild as an alternative, GregorR, and there's tango/dsss.conf
16:23:02 <GregorR> If there are instructions on building with rebuild and no DSSS, go for it.
16:23:03 <Deewiant> ehird: I wouldn't bother, just use the shell scripts
16:23:31 <ehird> GOD this is a pain in the pain.
16:23:42 <GregorR> Somebody needs to assert God-like power over the D community and clean this whole mess up.
16:24:03 <ehird> Benevolent Dictator For Until You Get Your Fucking Shit Together.
16:24:21 <ehird> Deewiant: You are blind.
16:24:36 <Deewiant> I'm not reading the logs at all, just tell me or don't
16:24:47 <ehird> Deewiant: Getting D working.
16:25:14 <Deewiant> Getting LDC to work is a matter of cmake && make && make runtime
16:25:23 <GregorR> Deewiant: D1 vs D2, combine that with Phobos vs Tango, combine that with one compiler that only supports Tango, one that barely supports anything, and one that only supports D1, and *KABOOM*
16:25:30 <Deewiant> Getting Tango to work thereafter is a matter of cd tango/lib && something
16:25:45 <ehird> one that barely supports anything?
16:25:59 <Deewiant> GregorR: GDC being the last of the three?
16:26:02 <GregorR> Perhaps I'm more negative than I need to be on DMD :P
16:26:08 <ehird> GDC only supports 2007
16:26:18 <GregorR> Deewiant: Its D2 support doesn't count because it's wildly out of date.
16:26:34 <GregorR> Deewiant: Sure, once you know what and where everything is, the process is simplish, but to somebody who doesn't use D all the time, getting it all set up is insanity.
16:26:51 <Deewiant> GregorR: I haven't used D2 at all since Tango doesn't support it so I don't know about that
16:27:30 <Deewiant> Actually I'd say the trickiest part of getting D set up is getting DSSS and/or Rebuild set up
16:27:40 <Deewiant> With LDC, the basic process is really simple IMO.
16:28:13 <GregorR> Now /me really needs to leave for schoo,.
16:28:26 <Deewiant> GregorR: I wanted to build a 64-bit binary of Rebuild and had to hack its source to make it LDC-aware
16:28:27 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04] % rebuild hello.d
16:28:27 <ehird> WARNING: Module hello.d does not have a module declaration. This can cause problems
16:28:29 <ehird> with rebuild's -oq option. If an error occurs, fix this first.
16:28:31 <ehird> Undefined symbols:
16:28:33 <ehird> "__D5tango4stdc6stdlib8__ModuleZ", referenced from:
16:28:35 <ehird> __D6object9__importsZ in libtango-base-ldc.a(genobj.o)
16:28:41 <Deewiant> ehird: It can't find libtango-user-ldc.a
16:28:54 <ehird> Deewiant: Then it's dumb as fuck. Wait. "__D6object9__importsZ in libtango-base-ldc.a(genobj.o)"
16:28:56 <ehird> Of course it can find it.
16:29:01 <ehird> It just mentioned it referencing something.
16:29:04 <Deewiant> ehird: That's -base-, not -user-.
16:29:13 <ehird> Right, I need to compile tango.
16:29:36 <ehird> Now... what rebuild invokation...
16:29:45 <Deewiant> For Tango, just use the shell scripts, seriously.
16:29:52 <ehird> Look, I'm batshit insane, okay?
16:30:06 <ehird> Your mom's part C++. But fine.
16:30:21 <Deewiant> My mom's too old to be any part C++.
16:30:28 <ehird> She traveled in time.
16:30:47 <ehird> % ./build-tango.sh ldc
16:33:53 <ehird> Okay, so after this I do some really wild rebuild shit wit tangobos. Or something.
16:35:20 <ehird> Deewiant: I did "sudo install libtango-user-ldc.a /usr/local/lib" and it still can't find it.
16:35:42 <Deewiant> Run rebuild -v to see what it's doing.
16:35:59 <ehird> link ldc ./nmd_hello.o ./tango.io.Stdout.o ./tango.io.Console.o ./tango.sys.Common.o ./tango.sys.darwin.darwin.o ./tango.stdc.time.o ./tango.stdc.config.o ./tango.stdc.stddef.o ./tango.stdc.posix.dlfcn.o ./tango.stdc.posix.config.o ./tango.stdc.posix.fcntl.o ./tango.stdc.stdint.o ./tango.stdc.posix.sys.types.o ./tango.stdc.posix.sys.stat.o ./tango.stdc.posix.time.o ./tango.stdc.posix.signal.o ./tango.stdc.signal.o ./tango.stdc.posix.poll.o ./tango.s
16:36:02 <ehird> tdc.posix.pwd.o ./tango.stdc.posix.unistd.o ./tango.stdc.posix.inttypes.o ./tango.stdc.inttypes.o ./tango.stdc.posix.sys.select.o ./tango.stdc.posix.sys.time.o ./tango.stdc.errno.o ./tango.stdc.string.o ./tango.io.device.Device.o ./tango.core.Exception.o ./tango.io.device.Conduit.o ./tango.io.model.IConduit.o ./tango.io.stream.Buffered.o ./tango.io.stream.Format.o ./tango.text.convert.Layout.o ./tango.text.convert.Utf.o ./tango.text.convert.Float.o ./tan
16:36:07 <ehird> go.text.convert.Integer.o ./tango.core.Vararg.o ./ldc.Vararg.o -ofhello -L-L/usr/local/bin/../lib -d-version=Tango -defaultlib=tango-base-ldc -debuglib=tango-base-ldc
16:36:19 <Deewiant> Hmm, right, that's probably right.
16:36:24 <ehird> Now adjust your bin/ldc.conf to include -L-ltango-user-ldc.
16:36:43 <ehird> // 'switches' holds array of string that are appends to the command line
16:36:43 <ehird> // arguments before they are parsed.
16:36:45 <Deewiant> It occurs to me that using -user- isn't what you're supposed to do.
16:36:46 <ehird> "-I/Users/ehird/Downloads/ldc/runtime/../tango",
16:36:48 <ehird> "-I/Users/ehird/Downloads/ldc/runtime/../tango/lib/common",
16:36:50 <ehird> "-L-L/Users/ehird/Downloads/ldc/runtime/../lib",
16:36:52 <ehird> God damn, this shit is dumb.
16:36:57 <ehird> I DID "MAKE INSTALL"
16:37:05 <ehird> THAT MEANS MY TEMP DIRETORY WILL GO DISAPPEAR
16:37:20 <ehird> Now I have to resolve your own fuckin' paths for you.
16:37:33 <Deewiant> It only installs the binary and the conf, it expects tango to be where it originally was
16:37:42 <ehird> RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
16:38:40 <ehird> There's absolutely no obvious way to *install* Tango.
16:39:30 <Deewiant> There is a way, I forget what it is though since I always just use the SVN.
16:39:53 <ehird> Deewiant: Good news: LDC can't build Tango SVN.
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16:39:57 * ehird trashes binaries, starts again.
16:40:15 <ehird> It says so on the page.
16:40:23 <ehird> Fetch the tango runtime for D1. Note that LDC fails to compile trunk at the moment - use 0.99.8.
16:42:39 <ehird> Deewiant: So what you're saying is that I should build ldc with the tango runtime where I want to install it?
16:43:00 <ehird> As in, have the tango runtime in /usr/local/lib/tango or whatever and tell ldc to use that.
16:43:08 <ehird> since "it expects tango to be where it originally was"
16:43:25 <Deewiant> Well, I guess it's either that or edit ldc.conf after the fact.
16:44:08 <ehird> Okay. I can handle that. Sure. Except, I don't know how to tell ldc that tango's thataway :|
16:44:38 <ehird> RUNTIME_DIR */Users/ehird/Downloads/ldc/runtime/../tango
16:48:47 <ehird> -D <var>:<type>=<value>
16:48:52 <ehird> I wonder wtf type is
16:49:32 <ehird> Does just -D foo=bar work?
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16:55:16 <ehird> "-L-L/usr/local/workspace/ldc/runtime/../lib",
16:55:40 <ehird> This is the most user-hostile build process ever.
16:56:10 <Deewiant> You haven't built much stuff on Windows, I take it
16:56:31 <ehird> Windows is the first disease targeted at programmers.
16:57:18 <ehird> I can't even think of a way to fix it without sed
17:03:59 <ehird> I could unpack it to /usr/local.
17:04:05 <ehird> I'll take the easy route.
17:04:32 <Deewiant> Also, like said, there's the fact that you don't have to be linking to -user- and it's preferable not to
17:04:41 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't get it.
17:04:49 <ehird> I have to link to -user-.
17:04:54 <ehird> Otherwise no tango.
17:05:06 <Deewiant> The reason you're using rebuild is that it builds against the tango modules directly
17:05:26 <Deewiant> The alternative is to not use rebuild and link program.o against -user-
17:05:53 <Deewiant> I pondered briefly why you got an error earlier and am not sure.
17:06:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Wrong paths in the hizzouse.
17:06:28 <Deewiant> ehird: I doubt it, since it seemed to have everything it needed.
17:06:39 <ehird> ldc.conf's paths pointed to my weird-ass download dir.
17:07:29 <ehird> Let's hope it works in a cage.
17:11:15 <ehird> Deewiant: So I need to not build -user-?
17:11:22 <ehird> ie omit the build-tango.sh step
17:11:52 <Deewiant> You can, and I always do out of habit, but I don't think I've ever actually needed it
17:14:40 <ehird> Fuck. I messed up my magick build steps.
17:20:49 <ehird> I hope rebuild works without installing.
17:23:51 <ehird> Yay! Tangobos's makefile uses dmd, and the only other way to compile it is dsss.
17:25:13 <Deewiant> Build Gtk2hs on Windows twice and then reconsider your predicament.
17:25:32 <ehird> No, I'd rather kill myself like my current plan, but thanks for the offer.
17:25:43 <ehird> Deewiant: try building gtk2hs on os x _once_ using native gtk
17:25:48 <ehird> you have to manually patch a .cabal.in
17:25:57 <ehird> and have a HUGE pkgconfig environment variable
17:26:00 <Deewiant> You have native GTK? That's cheating
17:26:10 <ehird> native gtk == gtk for os x.
17:26:12 <Deewiant> You have all these things that do things for you
17:26:19 <ehird> They don't do things for me
17:26:23 <ehird> The majority of it is working around it
17:26:49 <Deewiant> On Windows you have to start with building Gtk
17:27:02 <ehird> you can dl a binary
17:28:14 <ehird> why doesn't t his just work
17:28:37 <ehird> everything works up to tangobos
17:28:52 <Deewiant> Swap ldmd for dmd in the makefile
17:30:26 <Deewiant> Maybe make install doesn't install it or something
17:30:57 <ehird> rebuild -full std/*.d std/*/*.d
17:31:17 <ehird> std/stream.d(1824): Error: identifier 'HANDLE' is not defined
17:31:18 <ehird> std/stream.d(1824): Error: HANDLE is used as a type
17:31:21 <ehird> std/date.d(963): Error: function std.c.linux.linux.time (__time_t*) does not match parameter types (int*)
17:31:25 <ehird> std/path.d(83): Error: static assert is false
17:31:59 <Deewiant> The first one might be a version (Linux) else // win32
17:32:12 <ehird> HOw can I specify version Linux?
17:32:22 <Deewiant> You can't, it's built-in and unmodifyable.
17:32:29 <ehird> it's just testing version (Unix)
17:32:38 <ehird> version(DigitalMars) version(Posix) {
17:32:47 <ehird> on the command line or sth
17:32:59 <ehird> -version=ident compile in version code identified by ident
17:33:07 <ehird> -version=Linux -version=Unix
17:33:29 <ehird> std/date.d(877): Error: identifier 'time_t' is not defined
17:33:29 <ehird> std/date.d(877): Error: time_t is used as a type
17:33:59 <ehird> It just uses time_t.
17:34:22 <ehird> Where's time_t meant to b
17:35:48 <ehird> Deewiant: Mostly same issue, those non-existant types.
17:37:09 <ehird> Tangobos is maybe wanting an older Tango.
17:37:29 <ehird> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
17:37:30 <ehird> r62 | fawzi | 2009-04-17 15:00:59 +0100 (Fri, 17 Apr 2009) | 2 lines
17:37:31 <ehird> improvements to compile tangobos with latest tango and dmd on mac (but still tangobos is still broken)
17:37:43 <ehird> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
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17:38:32 <ehird> GregorR-L: I hate you.
17:38:33 <ehird> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
17:38:33 <ehird> r62 | fawzi | 2009-04-17 15:00:59 +0100 (Fri, 17 Apr 2009) | 2 lines
17:38:35 <ehird> improvements to compile tangobos with latest tango and dmd on mac (but still tangobos is still broken)
17:38:41 <ehird> It's all broken ;_;
17:39:14 <GregorR-L> I haven't had anything to do with tangobos in quite a while.
17:39:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: You made it, it's broken. So there. :P
17:39:52 <ehird> I believe it is literally impossible for me to get LDC/DSSS working.
17:40:27 <ehird> GregorR-L: it'd be quicker to rewrite all of dplof :P
17:40:44 <GregorR-L> Try something like this to compile manually maybe: rebuild plof/main.d -ofdplof
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17:41:20 <GregorR-L> (Same with plof/psl/pslasm.d to pslasm)
17:41:54 <ehird> % PATH=/usr/local/d/dsss/rebuild:/usr/local/d/ldc/bin:$PATH rebuild plof/main.d -ofdplof
17:41:58 <ehird> Seems to be working.
17:42:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: Behold:
17:42:19 <ehird> http://pastie.org/449962.txt?key=m9vakzgxmncjztocjrn9ig
17:42:42 <ehird> hahahahahhahahaha fuck LDC. What do you use for dplof GregorR-L?
17:42:57 <ehird> Does it build with dmd?
17:43:07 <ehird> That's ever so slightly more modern than gdc, at least.
17:43:17 <ehird> OTOH, DSSS+GDC justWorks.
17:43:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: Install gdc, compile rebuild, compile dsss, dsss net install tango.
17:44:34 <ehird> % sudo port install gdc β ah, convenience.
17:48:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:48:34 <pikhq> sudo dsss install gdc # Ah, distro-agnostic convenience.
17:48:43 <pikhq> s/install/net-install/
17:49:13 <ehird> pikhq: Im in ur cyclic dependency loop, being fragile. Im in ur five thousand separate package managers, failing at inter-language dependencies and failing at convenient system upgrades.
17:50:06 <GregorR-L> wget http://.../gcc-core-<bleh>.tar.bz2; tar xf gcc-core-<bleh>; wget http://.../gdc-<bleh>.tar.gz; <extract, extract, patch, patch>; configure; build <- AHHHHHH! Convenience?! :P
17:50:35 <ehird> hg clone ldc, svn co tango, cp patch rm svn make make runtime sed cp tangobos KILL YOURSELF
17:54:51 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Well, that would be the LFS way.
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17:57:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: I have GDC. Now dsss, right?
17:58:21 <pikhq> Could've just gotten a binary of dsss and let that deal with the mess, but, yeah.
17:59:05 <pikhq> Ah. Well, not very likely to find one, then. ;)
17:59:37 <ehird> Ignore any error from GDC or DMD in the following lines.
17:59:37 <ehird> /Users/ehird/Downloads/dsss/rebuild/./testtango.d:3: function testtango.A.toUtf8 function toUtf8 does not override any
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18:01:20 <GregorR-L> ehird: That's correct, that's how it detects whether you have Phobos or Tango installed.
18:01:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: I has a rebuild.
18:01:54 <ehird> make -f Makefile.gdc.posix?
18:02:20 <ehird> /var/folders/sv/sv9BdLB9FEa1o30pkRqXCk+++TI/-Tmp-//cc3G6Yos.s:916:indirect jmp without `*'
18:02:20 <ehird> /var/folders/sv/sv9BdLB9FEa1o30pkRqXCk+++TI/-Tmp-//cc3G6Yos.s:935:indirect jmp without `*'
18:02:22 <ehird> /var/folders/sv/sv9BdLB9FEa1o30pkRqXCk+++TI/-Tmp-//cc3G6Yos.s:950:indirect jmp without `*'
18:02:24 <ehird> /var/folders/sv/sv9BdLB9FEa1o30pkRqXCk+++TI/-Tmp-//cc3G6Yos.s:965:indirect jmp without `*'
18:02:26 <ehird> /var/folders/sv/sv9BdLB9FEa1o30pkRqXCk+++TI/-Tmp-//cc3G6Yos.s:980:indirect jmp without `*'
18:02:28 <ehird> /var/folders/sv/sv9BdLB9FEa1o30pkRqXCk+++TI/-Tmp-//cc3G6Yos.s:995:indirect jmp without `*'
18:02:30 <ehird> /var/folders/sv/sv9BdLB9FEa1o30pkRqXCk+++TI/-Tmp-//cc3G6Yos.s:1017:indirect jmp without `*'
18:02:32 <ehird> /var/folders/sv/sv9BdLB9FEa1o30pkRqXCk+++TI/-Tmp-//cc3G6Yos.s:1036:indirect jmp without `*'
18:02:34 <ehird> /var/folders/sv/sv9BdLB9FEa1o30pkRqXCk+++TI/-Tmp-//cc3G6Yos.s:1051:indirect jmp without `*'
18:02:36 <ehird> make: *** [dsss] Error 1
18:02:38 <ehird> About 7 billion lines of them
18:02:42 <ehird> hcf/env.d:55: static assert is false
18:02:44 <ehird> hcf/process.d:149: function hcf.process.PStream.readBlock expected to return a value of type uint
18:02:46 <ehird> hcf/process.d:172: function hcf.process.PStream.writeBlock expected to return a value of type uint
18:02:48 <ehird> sss/conf.d:206: static assert is false
18:02:50 <ehird> what what in the butt
18:03:44 <GregorR-L> Oh wait, do you still have ~/.rebuild floating about?
18:04:25 <pikhq> Well, then. BAD ASSEMBLY GENERATOR, BAD!
18:04:30 <GregorR-L> Seems like the installed gdc is wrong D-8
18:04:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: Phobos hello world, plz?
18:05:18 <GregorR-L> Wow, I actually can't think of it O_O
18:05:47 <pikhq> Wasn't it something like writeln("Hello, world!"); ?
18:06:00 <GregorR-L> import std.stdio; int main() { writeln("Hello, world!"); return 0; }
18:06:08 -!- neldoreth has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:06:22 <ehird> hello.d:1: Error: undefined identifier writeln
18:06:23 <ehird> hello.d:1: Error: function expected before (), not writeln of type int
18:06:36 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: Also, that Tango-test doesn't work any more since Tango also gives toString.
18:07:20 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: Is there a particular reason you can't just use version (Tango)?
18:07:24 -!- neldoreth has joined.
18:07:40 <ehird> % gdc hello.d -o hello
18:07:40 <ehird> /var/folders/sv/sv9BdLB9FEa1o30pkRqXCk+++TI/-Tmp-//ccth4S8d.s:194:indirect jmp without `*'
18:07:47 <Deewiant> Or I don't know, try to import std.stdio
18:07:53 <ehird> So it's just a warning
18:07:55 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: I recall there being some complicated issue behind it, but I don't remember what it was ...
18:07:59 <ehird> Albeit a hugely fucking annoying one
18:08:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: Ergo, the problem is the other errors
18:08:18 <ehird> 18:02 ehird: hcf/env.d:55: static assert is false
18:08:18 <ehird> 18:02 ehird: hcf/process.d:149: function hcf.process.PStream.readBlock expected to return a value of type uint
18:08:21 <ehird> 18:02 ehird: hcf/process.d:172: function hcf.process.PStream.writeBlock expected to return a value of type uint
18:08:24 <ehird> 18:02 ehird: sss/conf.d:206: static assert is false
18:08:32 <GregorR-L> ehird: Seems like Posix is unset, but I don't know why ... what's in rebuild/rebuild.conf/default ?
18:08:36 <ehird> version Posix or version Windows.
18:08:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: profile=gdc-posix
18:08:51 <Deewiant> I love the way that Walter at some point decided that not printing the test in static assert is unnecessary
18:09:03 <pikhq> Well, that's certainly *unique*.
18:09:06 <Deewiant> I think it prints "" in a %s which is why there's a double-space there
18:09:42 <Deewiant> It used to print the messages, after all
18:10:04 <ehird> With a fiery passion of fire.
18:10:16 <GregorR-L> ehird: rebuild -vv sss/main.d -ofdsss and pastebin the (extensive) output
18:10:25 <Deewiant> I think I'll try to install Tangobos too
18:10:51 <ehird> GregorR-L: Extensive output: http://pastie.org/449989.txt?key=rz2d3r4vsx85uldnzsm9vw
18:11:33 <ehird> GregorR-L: New extensive output: http://pastie.org/449989.txt?key=rz2d3r4vsx85uldnzsm9vw
18:11:42 <pikhq> ehird: I love D, I hate its build environment.
18:11:56 <pikhq> (with the exception of dsss, really; that's a nice bit of work)
18:12:58 <GregorR-L> rebuild -vv -Irebuild sss/main.d -ofdsss doesn't find util/ in rebuild/? ...
18:13:31 <ehird> Wanna hear a joke guys?
18:15:10 <ehird> is that a capital i
18:15:22 <ehird> DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:15:23 <ehird> DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:15:24 <ehird> DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:15:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: New output
18:15:48 <ehird> dmd: unrecognized switch '-vv'
18:15:49 <ehird> dmd: unrecognized switch '-vv'
18:15:51 <ehird> dmd: unrecognized switch '-vv'
18:16:06 <GregorR-L> Whoops, sorry, -vv is a DSSS flag, meant just -v X-D
18:16:33 <ehird> And lo, the output was finally extensive.
18:16:35 <Deewiant> std/date.d(901): Error: cannot implicitly convert expression (localtime(&t)) of type tm* to tm*
18:16:42 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://pastie.org/449995.txt?key=prfwckd8qsk43dhlubdddq
18:16:42 <ehird> compile gdmd -c hcf/env.d -of./hcf.env.o -I/usr/local/bin/../include/d -Irebuild -version=GNU_or_Posix
18:16:50 <ehird> You heard it here first.
18:17:13 <ehird> version(GNU) { } version (Posix) { } version (GNU_or_Posix) {} version (Posix_or_GNU) {} version (GNU_Linux) { }
18:18:01 <GregorR-L> You don't have any weird ~/.rebuild or /etc/rebuild set up in some inexplicable way ...? That's truly confusing.
18:18:42 <GregorR-L> grep GNU_or_Posix rebuild/rebuild.conf/* ?
18:19:13 <ehird> % grep GNU_or_Posix **/*
18:19:14 <ehird> sss/conf.d: pragma(export_version, "GNU_or_Posix");
18:19:15 <ehird> sss/conf.d: pragma(export_version, "GNU_or_Posix");
18:19:42 <ehird> GregorR-L: lolwut^_^
18:20:31 <GregorR-L> Oh duh, forgot all about that, so the real mystery is why -version=Posix is seemingly not in your rebuild.conf/gdc-posix ...
18:20:33 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
18:21:14 <GregorR-L> On its cmd=gdmd line it should have -version=Posix
18:21:18 <pikhq> Whisky Tango Foxtrot...
18:21:27 <ehird> cmd=gdmd -q,-shared -q,-nodefaultlibs $i -of$o
18:21:30 <ehird> cmd=gdmd -q,-shared -q,-nodefaultlibs $i $l/dymoduleinit.d -of$o
18:21:38 <ehird> version=-version=$i
18:21:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: you're on crack.
18:21:54 <GregorR-L> Who TF remoed that from gdc-posix???
18:22:06 <ehird> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
18:22:06 <ehird> r943 | Jim Panic | 2009-03-31 21:01:52 +0100 (Tue, 31 Mar 2009) | 2 lines
18:22:08 <ehird> Removed "version = Posix" statements from rebuild/util sources.
18:22:10 <ehird> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
18:22:12 <ehird> r942 | Jim Panic | 2009-03-31 20:54:59 +0100 (Tue, 31 Mar 2009) | 2 lines
18:22:14 <ehird> Removed all occurances of -version=Posix from rebuild config files.
18:22:23 * ehird seizure of laughteramust
18:22:38 <ehird> FUCK YOU JIM PANIC.
18:22:55 <GregorR-L> ... maybe you should grab the latest release of DSSS instead of SVN X_X
18:23:02 <Deewiant> Doesn't the frontend error if you set -version=Posix?
18:23:14 <GregorR-L> Deewiant: Yeah, but that's not in GDC (yet)
18:23:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: Latest release link plz
18:23:32 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Would you like something to kill Jim Panic with?
18:23:43 <ehird> pikhq: Make him set up LDC/DSSS on OS X.
18:23:48 <Deewiant> Also, got Tangobos's D parts to build, now working on the C
18:24:15 <pikhq> ehird: That's significantly worse than doing the same on x86_64.
18:24:26 <ehird> pikhq: I tried it with _64 ... on OS X, before.
18:24:43 <ehird> pikhq: Let's just say that Dante got it all wrong. He could not possibly imagine.
18:24:47 <pikhq> It took me a couple of years.
18:24:58 <pikhq> Sorry, that was GDC/DSSS/Tango.
18:25:10 <ehird> GDC? Pfft. Peanuts.
18:25:22 <ehird> LDC/Tangobos/DSSSS/OS X, 64-bit.
18:25:33 <ehird> Also known as "las diablos compileros".
18:26:09 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:26:23 <ehird> svn co again, you mean :P
18:26:37 <Deewiant> Hmm, not quite it doesn't work
18:27:13 <ehird> Let's try this, then.
18:27:49 <ehird> GregorR-L: Still lots of indirect jump bullshit but no ERRORS
18:28:01 <ehird> % sudo make -f Makefile.gdc.posix install PREFIX=/usr/local
18:28:16 <GregorR-L> ehird: Please understand that I'm phasing out dplof for this very reason :P
18:28:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: Make dsss shit owned by me then net install tango, right>?
18:29:04 <ehird> (Why not use sudo? shrug)
18:29:44 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
18:30:04 <ehird> % dsss net install tango
18:30:12 <ehird> Default prefix /usr/local is unwritable, using /Users/ehird/d instead.
18:30:15 <ehird> Oh gawd on fuck earth,
18:30:21 <Deewiant> Gah, no __builtin_alloca either
18:30:25 <ehird> Now I need to figure out how to uninstall >________<
18:31:55 <ehird> % dsss net install tango
18:31:57 <ehird> Let's hope this works.
18:33:40 <ehird> You have chosen to install Tango via DSSS. If you follow through, you
18:33:40 <ehird> will no longer be able to build Phobos-based software. Uninstalling
18:33:42 <ehird> tango via DSSS WILL NOT uninstall the tango core, so this operation
18:33:44 <ehird> is difficult to undo. Are you sure you want to do this?
18:33:51 <ehird> I love this shit. Not.
18:34:20 <ehird> gdc: unrecognized option '-q,-nostdinc'
18:34:20 <ehird> adi.d:149: constructor object.Exception.this (char[]) does not match parameter types (char[22u],char[5u],long)
18:34:20 <Deewiant> writefln writes the newline but nothing else
18:34:23 <ehird> adi.d:149: Error: expected 1 arguments, not 3
18:34:23 <pikhq> Tango, as currently implemented, is an evil hack.
18:34:25 <ehird> adi.d:248: constructor object.Exception.this (char[]) does not match parameter types (char[23u],char[5u],long)
18:34:28 <ehird> adi.d:248: Error: expected 1 arguments, not 3
18:34:30 <ehird> gmake[2]: *** [adi.o] Error 1
18:34:32 <ehird> gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/private/tmp/DSSS_tango/tango/tango/lib/compiler/gdc'
18:34:34 <ehird> gmake[1]: *** [all] Error 2
18:34:36 <ehird> gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/private/tmp/DSSS_tango/tango/tango/lib/compiler/gdc'
18:34:38 <ehird> gmake: *** [lib] Error 2
18:34:40 <ehird> Command bash returned with code 256, aborting.
18:34:42 <ehird> Error: Command failed, aborting.
18:34:44 <ehird> YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
18:35:02 <Deewiant> Okay, you're screwed on that count
18:35:05 <ehird> I will not get the svn because I'm trying to do this easily ;_;
18:35:14 <ehird> dsss net install gdc
18:35:15 <Deewiant> I think the Tango guys say that GDC is screwed
18:35:56 <ehird> but this shit is _ridiculous_
18:36:03 <Deewiant> Tangobos looks to be in a crock-state so I'll see about GDC 0.20
18:36:10 <ehird> 17:48 pikhq: sudo dsss install gdc # Ah, distro-agnostic convenience.
18:36:15 <ehird> pikhq: that package doesn't even exist
18:36:50 <pikhq> Hrm. Gimme a bit to remember what it was.
18:37:56 <Deewiant> Let's see if it can compile my Sudoku solver
18:38:34 <Deewiant> Probably the last time I compiled this
18:39:18 <pikhq> gcc-4.3-gdc-0.20 or some such.
18:39:54 <pikhq> ehird: It's a good language with very bad support for, you know, getting an implementation up and running.
18:40:20 <ehird> pikhq: unlike every other language, where a full environment is one command away
18:40:22 <pikhq> God, I hate GDC and Phobos and all that stupid shit you have to deal with.
18:42:19 <Deewiant> Hmm, GDC 0.24's Phobos is too new :-(
18:42:21 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:42:21 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
18:42:48 <Deewiant> Or then it's been missing something forever, which is also possible
18:44:17 <Deewiant> Actually, it seems that this class I've been using is Windows-only O_o
18:44:46 <Deewiant> "is guaranteed to be meaningful on all operating systems."
18:45:48 <Deewiant> Changing that the thing builds
18:45:57 <ehird> Deewiant: Just rewrite it in haskell :P
18:47:20 <Deewiant> Seemed awfully long to me; 2527
18:47:36 <ehird> Deewiant: You can make a near-perfect solver in ~50 lines...
18:47:54 <Deewiant> This thing implements techniques
18:47:58 <Deewiant> And explains what it's doing along the way
18:48:07 <Deewiant> It didn't even support brute-force for many months
18:48:19 <ehird> That's using guessing? O RLY?
18:48:31 <ehird> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Sudoku
18:52:58 <ehird> 18:45 ehird: has anyone managed to get LDC/Tango/Tangobos working on OS X? I've tried and nothing is working.
19:03:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:06:42 <oerjan> <ehird> GregorR: one alternative is that if the next line is indented further it's a continuation
19:06:52 <oerjan> trying to get plof even closer to haskell? :D
19:09:09 <oerjan> <ehird> They can appeal?
19:10:06 <oerjan> iirc the european court on human rights requires appeal for criminal cases - i think norway had to adjust some cases to comply with the judgement
19:10:52 <oerjan> as usual, my recalls are vague
19:10:55 <ehird> *requires* appeal?
19:11:03 <ehird> requires the option
19:12:29 <oerjan> actually it may have been a more subtle technicality on how the appeals should be that norway had to change
19:17:52 <GregorR> Heheh, appeals are required.
19:17:57 <GregorR> Making the first judgment pointless.
19:18:08 <GregorR> Those low-level judges must hate their jobs :P
19:18:52 <ehird> 19:17 lament: oh jesus
19:18:52 <ehird> 19:18 lament: we just got a bug report from a customer
19:18:53 <ehird> 19:18 lament: the bug is that we use the word "hack" in the comments in the source code
19:18:55 <ehird> 19:18 lament: we have to take "hack" out
19:20:14 <ehird> 19:19 lament: the reason they want to take it out is not because it's rude 19:20 lament: it's because "hack" can be misinterpreted as a reference to illegal activity
19:20:19 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
19:20:21 <oerjan> <Deewiant> My mom's too old to be any part C++.
19:20:26 <ehird> 19:20 lament: for the record the customer is Microsoft :)
19:20:38 <oerjan> you mean she's part _COBOL_? eew.
19:20:46 <ehird> oerjan: COBOL porn.
19:22:57 <ehird> 19:22 lament: MS has a tool called Policheck to check the source code
19:23:02 <ehird> i should just set up a #haskell mirroring thing
19:23:04 <ehird> but this is too great
19:28:46 <GregorR> My stomach was making the rumblies, that only hands would satisfy.
19:29:17 <ehird> GregorR: Um. Did you think, "good god I might die?"
19:29:21 * ehird phew. rhyming order restored
19:29:44 <oklopol> this one time i felt something like an electric shock in my stomach, and fell on the ground.
19:30:09 <GregorR> <oklopol> Turns out I just ate some bad electric eel.
19:30:27 <oklopol> no no the punchline is it hurt like hell!
19:30:38 <GregorR> The pain of others makes me smile!
19:36:08 <ehird> http://sod.jodi.org/
19:36:52 <pikhq> There's uglier, I'm sure.
19:37:05 <ehird> GregorR: Dude, it's jodi.org!
19:37:16 <ehird> http://wwwwwwwww.jodi.org/
19:37:30 <GregorR> I'd never heard of jodi.org :P
19:37:38 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodi
19:38:00 <ehird> Sheesh. You guys know nothing of the old interweb art :P
19:38:05 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:39:02 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:41:03 <ehird> http://asdfg.jodi.org/
19:41:05 <ehird> avoid being epileptic
19:41:20 <Sgeo> ehird, you mean photosensitive epileptic?
19:41:40 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure my mom was not epileptic
19:47:07 <Sgeo> "SL Economy in Detail: Strong growth in XLStreet. We are sure is has *nothing* to do with our buying and shutting down the only alternative."
19:48:57 <ehird> GregorR: how's jsmips
19:50:37 <GregorR> ehird: Recently updated it to support GCC 4.3
19:51:12 <ehird> GregorR: Why can't you just make a perl script that converts elf files to it like decent people.
19:51:41 <ehird> GregorR: So you can just use a regular mips gcc.
19:51:48 <Sgeo> I am going to _KILL_ Windows
19:52:24 <GregorR> ehird: The only change I made was adding a jsmips OS target, it's not a different binary format.
19:52:45 <ehird> GregorR: Why's that even needed?
19:53:11 <GregorR> ehird: The alternative would be to either emulate an entire machine and run Linux (ultra-slow) or emulate e.g. the Linux ABI (which may be possible, but would be something of a PITA if I wanted any real compatibility)
19:53:48 <ehird> GregorR: or, just make a script that fishes for the lee knucks instructions and replaces them with jsmips ones
19:54:31 <GregorR> Yeah, I want to go trouncing through the glibc binary replacing syscalls in unpredictable ways X_X
19:55:16 <ehird> GregorR: Yeah, I want to build gcc X_X
19:55:36 <GregorR> You have to build GCC either way, unless for some strange reason you have a MIPS-targeted GCC floating about.
19:56:28 <ehird> GregorR: Conveniently, mips gccs are packaged.
19:56:37 <ehird> JSMIPS GCCs? Not so much
19:57:14 <GregorR> Let me be blunt: JSMIPS needs its own GCC for the same reason that people don't compile stuff using GCC for Linux and then patch it to run on OpenBSD.
19:58:16 <GregorR> If that was the way it was done, people would still be compiling ELFs for SysV and patching them up to whatever their latest system is.
20:02:24 <pikhq> Which would be damned spiffy.
20:03:05 <GregorR> For somebody who uses an OS that has yet another needlessly different object file format, you sure are opinionated about ELF :P
20:03:43 <pikhq> ELF is fucking *old*.
20:04:14 <Sgeo> <A siner> Sgeo> You nat turn off the 'restart now or later' box with "net stop wuauserv".
20:04:32 <Sgeo> A siner> This tidbit makes me really popular among Windows-using people. >:)
20:05:29 <ehird> SEKRIT SERVER DEMANDS ANONYMIZED NAMES
20:05:49 <Deewiant> I put my old Sudoku solver up, in case anybody is interested.
20:05:51 <GregorR> Secret Squirrel demands anonymized acorns.
20:06:11 <Deewiant> ehird: iki.fi/deewiant as usual
20:06:18 <ehird> yeah we all have your site bookmarked.
20:06:33 <Deewiant> Anyway, there's D program you might even be capable of building
20:06:39 <fizzie> Completely not related, but do they still have blue screens of death in whatever Windowses they're making nowadays (Vista and that 7 thing)? And can you still change the color by editing a registry key? You could in some versionsies.
20:06:56 <ehird> Deewiant: you should call it deewidoku
20:06:56 <GregorR> fizzie: I'm pretty sure the color changing was unique to the 9x family.
20:06:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: They do, didn't know about the colour changing until now.
20:07:04 * pikhq is somewhat partial to his sudoku solver...
20:07:14 <Deewiant> ehird: I could/should call it a lot of things but I'm going with what it was in 2006 :-P
20:07:28 <Deewiant> Not my choice if I'd have made it now
20:07:42 * GregorR goes to buy some wakey-wakey juice.
20:07:51 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it was the 9x thing that had changeable colors, not the NT-style stop screens.
20:08:00 <pikhq> For CS153, we had to write a sudoku solver. I didn't care enough to do it ahead of time, so I wrote it all in a night. Needless to say, I used a brute-force solver.
20:08:16 <Deewiant> Non-brute-force solvers are quite the minority.
20:08:24 <ehird> isn't brute force quick anyway
20:08:29 <ehird> like 1s to solve most puzzles
20:08:34 <pikhq> I think a better algorithm was taught in class.
20:08:49 <Deewiant> It's just not interesting is all :-P
20:08:52 <pikhq> ehird: It wasn't even a very efficient solver.
20:08:58 <ehird> Deewiant: Sudoku isn't.
20:09:00 <Sgeo> There's naked stuff right across from my G-rated stall
20:09:05 <pikhq> Some puzzles took a good 30s.
20:09:19 <ehird> Sgeo: Don't put up a stall next to things that are naked, then.
20:09:27 <ehird> Surely you saw this before you decided to get some wood and put a stall up.
20:09:30 <Deewiant> Maybe it isn't which explains why I never really finished my solver.
20:09:37 <Sgeo> ehird, the naked stuff came later, I think
20:09:38 <ehird> Alternatively: Start selling ADULT PRODUKTS
20:09:46 <ehird> Sgeo: Complain to $govt.
20:09:55 <ehird> (Note: Will not achieve a thing.)
20:10:19 * Sgeo would show a pic, but
20:10:34 <pikhq> It went through, for ever cell, checking if a number was valid. If it was, move on. If it wasn't, increment and try again. If it couldn't increment, backtrack.
20:10:50 <Sgeo> ehird, aren't you under 18?
20:10:52 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:10:53 <fizzie> I wrote a sudoku not-a-solver which just has a gui which shows the possible numbers you can put in one cell that do not violate the simple constraints. That's possibly even more boring than a brute-force solver, but I didn't want to be completely out of work myself.
20:11:03 <ehird> Sgeo: Yes. Nakedness might just cause me to die from shock.
20:11:20 <ehird> I am completely innocent and wholesome.
20:11:33 <ehird> The very model of a child.
20:11:52 <GregorR> Speaking of meatspin.com, I heard randomporn.org gaystuff.com twogirlsonecup.
20:12:14 <ehird> nakedness.on.nimp.org
20:12:37 <Deewiant> pikhq: Heh, that's about as brute-force as you can make it.
20:12:56 <pikhq> I stopped caring about the class rather quick.
20:13:33 <pikhq> About the only vaguely difficult thing we did was a binary search tree. And I've already done one in the name of (older incarnations of) Plof.
20:14:53 <ehird> I should write my megæfficient multicore tripcode cracker sometime
20:15:30 <ehird> Deewiant: But of course.
20:16:06 <ehird> meg combining-Β¨ Γ¦ fficient
20:17:21 <Sgeo> http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7457/nakedstall001.png (NSFWish). To the right is my stall
20:17:51 <Deewiant> How can that be NSFW, even ish
20:18:12 <ehird> Sgeo: Oh, Second Life idiotic bullshit? I thought you owning a stall was a bit odd
20:18:15 <ehird> And what Deewiant said.
20:18:23 <ehird> It's some blurred peach-ish pixels
20:18:35 <ehird> I couldn't see it properly if I tried
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20:23:27 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: gnome sort looks like it performs pretty well for this purpose
20:23:33 <Deewiant> Hmm, those can't be uppercased so it didn't seem like a shout
20:24:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Great. I had some ideas for a parallelizable sort algorithm that fixes mistakes, too.
20:25:39 <ehird> Basically: Sort even indices and odd indices separately (This can, of course, be subdivided N times). Then, combine them together so that they come out in a different order. Repeat until you don't do any swaps.
20:25:44 <ehird> Needs some ironing out, obviously.
20:26:32 <ehird> The magic bit is the combining
20:26:42 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd-even_sort
20:26:48 <ehird> Yeah that's not it
20:26:55 <ehird> It modifies in place
20:27:06 <ehird> Mine does it seperately, then shuffles together, pretty much
20:27:14 <ehird> also, that doesn't do the odd/even separation multiple times
20:27:19 <ehird> also, my swapping was more basic
20:27:21 <Deewiant> http://cs.wlu.edu/~whaleyt/classes/parallel/topics/OETS.html also not this
20:27:34 <ehird> That's rather obscure
20:28:06 <Deewiant> It's at http://www.cs.rit.edu/~atk/Java/Sorting/sorting.html
20:28:54 <Deewiant> bsmntbombdood: Have you tried tacosort?
20:33:15 <ehird> heyy, I think I devised an algo
20:33:23 <ehird> only works on even length lists though. lemme test it some more
20:34:33 <ehird> actually, I think it only works on lengths that are powers of two
20:36:56 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's very parallelizable; you can just ask the humans to choose which item is greater than
20:37:38 <ehird> so my algo may work :P
20:37:42 <ehird> just trying it on another test case
20:39:43 <bsmntbombdood> this is sort of unrelated, but at work i actually have to sort things by hand
20:39:55 <ehird> I'ma call it sievesort since if you watch each step it looks like it's just sieving all the numbers into sortedness :P
20:43:35 <ehird> sorting this 8 length list is taking mighty long
20:44:12 <ehird> haven't repeated a state yet, phw
20:45:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the algorithm contains some rather computar-unfriendly portions
20:45:33 <ehird> so phoo to that until I know it works
20:49:02 <GregorR> Mmmmmm, wakey-wakey juice.
20:49:30 <ehird> it's beginning to sort
20:49:49 <ehird> (and yes, that will swap to the other side of the list)
20:52:11 <GregorR> How slow can you make a sorting algorithm with no redundant or pointless code? (This is subjective of course, but still)
20:52:51 <ehird> only one item out of place
20:52:58 <ehird> of course, it'll take like 10 more iterations to fix this
20:53:09 <GregorR> ehird: You can't do infinite things without doing something redundant :P
20:54:20 <Deewiant> GregorR: Tacosort can run theoretically forever, being probabilistic
20:54:33 <ehird> and it jumbles them up once again
20:56:07 <oklopol> <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Great. I had some ideas for a parallelizable sort algorithm that fixes mistakes, too.
20:56:07 <oklopol> Basically: Sort even indices and odd indices separately (This can, of course, be subdivided N times). Then, combine them together so that they come out in a different order. Repeat until you don't do any swaps. <<< come out in different order? anyway sounds like mergesort to me
20:56:36 <ehird> it's far more silly than that
20:56:40 <ehird> it has blind spots and stuff
20:56:44 <ehird> but it does seem to be sorting this list
20:56:50 <oklopol> Sorting is one of the slowest operations in programing. <<< what :D
20:57:55 <ehird> this algorithm is cute, it keeps making mistakes then fixing them
20:58:24 <oklopol> http://cs.wlu.edu/~whaleyt/classes/parallel/topics/OETS.html
20:58:44 <oklopol> in case you left in the 2 minutes i spent logreading after that
20:59:23 <ehird> my algorithm phails
20:59:28 <ehird> [3,8,4,7,1,6,2,5] kills it dead
21:00:02 <GregorR> oklopol: That is of course subjective, but I think that's just plain wrong :P
21:00:07 <ehird> look at every second number
21:00:08 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: many algorithms do.
21:00:20 <ehird> that's what trips it up i think
21:00:21 <oklopol> can't say i care or know much about programs ofc.
21:01:04 <oklopol> GregorR: well, from a very practical low-level coding viewpoint it might be true.
21:01:26 <oklopol> even if you're not doing anything that complex, you'll probably need to sort
21:01:55 <bsmntbombdood> if you are sorting you are probably doing it wrong
21:03:10 <bsmntbombdood> i can't imagine where you would have to sort except for output
21:03:27 <oklopol> i don't see how that's funny, but i know it's a joke
21:03:33 <ehird> My failure: http://pastie.org/450152.txt?key=tmbdqoitnwb9zkkeh9zww
21:04:07 <GregorR> "Sorting is one of the slowest operations in programing." can only have been written by somebody whose never done anything with graphs at all.
21:04:34 <Deewiant> It depends on how you define 'operation'
21:04:45 <oklopol> ehird: ah interesting, that's like mergesort and shellsort put together to produce something like a gnomesort except it doesn't even work
21:05:04 <ehird> oklopol: it works on [4,3,2,1]
21:05:24 <Deewiant> So what, it's randomly either the identity or reverse function? :-P
21:05:24 <ehird> i RAGE'd when I got [1,3,2,4,5,7,6,8]
21:05:32 <ehird> SNATCHING DEFEAT FROM THE JAWS OF FAILURE
21:05:44 <ehird> oklopol: how you combine two things depends on whether you did it last
21:05:49 <ehird> (1,2) and (2,1), alternating
21:05:56 <ehird> that's to try and give it less blind spots
21:06:02 <oklopol> have you considered doing that randomly?
21:06:12 <ehird> feel free to try that
21:06:52 <ehird> i mean since it ignores every other elem, there can be unsorted bits that aren't noticed
21:06:57 <ehird> so we swap how we combine each time
21:07:04 <ehird> instead of interleaving them
21:07:11 <ehird> to try and increase the view of the whole list
21:07:41 <ehird> ofc i dunno the termination case
21:07:47 <ehird> apart from "issorted(lst)" :D
21:11:26 <GregorR> It's a guy with botched plastic surgery.
21:11:36 <GregorR> But at least he's got a sense of humor about it.
21:16:20 <oklopol> ehird: i made a rather complex and uninteresting version of it, and i'm not sure i still got it to work :)
21:16:54 <ehird> oklopol: vjn.fi/pb it?
21:18:45 <oklopol> ehird: i'll try a more automated approach first, i don't like sorting manually in a text editor
21:20:31 <ehird> oklopol: pb the manual one anyway
21:21:15 <GregorR> You should make an esolang in which all computation is done by applying not-quite-sorting algorithms.
21:21:44 <ehird> "Here we sort the input in Brainfuck ordering."
21:22:11 <Sgeo> The problem with the adult stuff near my stall is that soon the entire area might be declared "adults only", and would require me presenting proof that I'm an adult, which I'm not willing to do
21:22:48 <ehird> Sgeo: your exploits are hilarious and also embarrasing.
21:22:53 <ehird> please don't stop.
21:22:58 <oerjan> Sgeo: make your stall sell children's toys
21:23:15 <oerjan> then demand _they_ be thrown out
21:23:17 <ehird> oerjan: I'm pretty sure all children on SEKOND LIFF are 40+
21:23:56 <Sgeo> Children aren't supposed to be on SL
21:24:50 <ehird> Aren't you an adult, anyway? Weren't you 18 a year ago?
21:24:54 <oerjan> well adjust my suggestion for some allowed age lower than adult
21:25:12 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: damn, looks like gnome sort does better than insertion
21:25:15 <fizzie> Interpreted "all children on SEKOND LIFF are 40+" as to be meaning "you can buy a child in second life, but it costs >40 units of currency always".
21:25:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: and? :P
21:25:28 <GregorR> <fizzie> Interpreted "all children on SEKOND LIFF are 40+" as to be meaning "you can buy a child in second life, but it costs >40 units of currency always". // LOL
21:25:29 <ehird> Sgeo: did I say something wrong
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21:28:42 <ehird> we've been inventing terrible sorting algorithms
21:28:56 <ehird> ais523: yeah -- mine didn't even work
21:28:58 <ehird> ais523: also, good news:
21:29:03 <ehird> "We do not have any ads, nor do we ever plan on adding any. We make our money off paid accounts, not advertising. I'll look into getting the clause removed. "
21:29:33 <ehird> GregorR: "free account users may not use an adblocker"
21:30:14 <ais523> it is enforceable, I think
21:30:21 <ais523> you could put an advert on the page and see if it loaded
21:30:29 <ehird> ais523: adblockers can load ads but not display them
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21:31:13 <ais523> blocking the loading time is the whole point
21:31:25 * oerjan invents a horrendous thing: the ad CAPTCHA
21:31:28 <GregorR> No, blocking the offense to the eyes is a more important hing.
21:31:46 <GregorR> You heard me, it's a hing.
21:31:53 <oerjan> where the ad contains some information you need to see the real content
21:31:59 <ehird> ais523: oh, and Plof is active again
21:32:07 <ehird> in the sense that I'm trying to wrangle it to be my perfect language
21:32:09 <GregorR> Plof was never inactive, just ... hibernating :P
21:32:11 <ehird> and GregorR is abstaining.
21:32:13 <oerjan> (i'm sure it's been thought of before)
21:32:28 <GregorR> I may even implement the changes you want :P
21:32:40 <GregorR> The more I think about it the more I lean away from abstaining and towards pro.
21:32:50 <ehird> That's what your face said to your mom, GregorR.
21:32:56 <ehird> Hm. That didn't work.
21:33:06 <GregorR> Yes, my face is the part of my body with which I talk.
21:33:20 <GregorR> (I suppose the throat and lungs are pretty important too :P )
21:33:24 <oerjan> fungot: they won't pong me :(
21:33:24 <fungot> oerjan: sisc doesn't have define-values with a let?!
21:33:36 <ehird> wow, people buy second life land for $1,000
21:33:44 <GregorR> oerjan: /ctcp #esoteric PING
21:33:58 <oerjan> GregorR: that's so crude
21:34:08 <GregorR> ehird: See, that's how it's done.
21:34:16 <ehird> GregorR: Masterful.
21:35:23 <GregorR> I'm watching Felix the Cat. Everybody talks like they've barely recovered from a stroke.
21:36:00 <ais523> in other news, I've switched my desktop appearance from Feisty default to Gutsy default
21:36:08 <ais523> except that I made all the fonts smaller by 1 pixel
21:36:11 <ehird> ais523: the shit-brown one?
21:36:22 <ais523> I liked the brown one, but this one looks good too
21:36:37 <ehird> also, don't you mean 1 point
21:36:44 <ehird> it's default 10 points, 9 was the older default
21:37:16 <ehird> ais523: wait, gutsy is 8.10 right?
21:37:26 <ehird> i think we need a screenshot heere
21:37:43 <ais523> http://imgur.com/2CUOG.png
21:37:52 <ais523> I left the desktop background the same, though...
21:37:55 <ehird> so, the pirate bay people got sentenced to a year in prison (everyone knows this, I'm just repeating it for a certain slowpoke :D)
21:38:03 <ehird> ais523: that's not the 8.10 default!
21:38:14 <ais523> I'm using Jaunty, = 9.04
21:38:18 <ehird> in fact, that's not any ubuntu X.YZ default
21:38:30 <ais523> I'm not sure if it or the purple one's the default, they're both new
21:38:33 <GregorR> I'm using Debian testing :P
21:38:40 <ehird> ais523: ... neither
21:38:57 <ais523> that's the one I used to have
21:39:06 <ehird> ais523: all ubuntus have been brown or orange
21:39:13 <ehird> the theme in that screenshot has never been default
21:39:14 <ais523> no, Intrepid was black
21:39:29 <ais523> just I didn't like it and went back to the old version
21:39:47 <ehird> ais523: I'm sorry, you're wrong. I installed 8.10 a few weeks ago for parental overlordism.
21:39:53 <ehird> It had orange titlebars.
21:40:22 <ehird> google images disagree with me
21:40:26 <ais523> are you sure you didn't install 8.04?
21:40:37 <ais523> which is recommended anyway, I think 8.10 is less stable than the release either side
21:41:25 <Judofyr> finally done with this crappy assignment :D
21:41:47 <Judofyr> why the hell should I care about the political system in Botswana?
21:41:56 <Judofyr> and compare it to Norway's?
21:42:07 <fizzie> Our work-workstations went 8.10 recently, and they really didn't look like that. I think.
21:42:11 <oerjan> good grief. they could at least have chosen Zimbabwe.
21:42:29 <ehird> ais523: maybe the beta had it
21:42:31 <ehird> but the release didn't
21:42:59 <oerjan> (mind you i'm not sure how Zimbabwe's system _should_ work, but i'm pretty sure it doesn't)
21:43:03 <Judofyr> no fighting, no corruption
21:43:39 <oerjan> Judofyr: so it's a politically correct assignment to drive down the point that not all of africa is in shambles?
21:44:00 <Judofyr> oerjan: yeah. I'm surprised too
21:44:29 <Judofyr> botswana was like "can we go", and great britain said "yes"
21:44:54 <Judofyr> in zimbabwe, they said "no, no, no, no. and you're going in prison"
21:45:03 <oerjan> hm they must be blessed with an absence of natural resources :D
21:45:35 <Judofyr> well, right now they got lots of diamondsβ¦
21:45:44 <oerjan> perhaps less immigration
21:47:03 <oerjan> ok maybe they'll survive given they didn't already have war or corruption. norway did, after all
21:48:11 <pikhq> Ubuntu? Ick. I'm using Gentoo on my desktop, and Debian stable on my router.
21:48:23 <ais523> pikhq: yes, ick is in the repositories
21:48:39 <ais523> part of the reason I'm using it is that it's been on this computer continuously since I got it
21:48:46 <ais523> without ever reinstalling
21:49:02 <oerjan> what does ick stand for again
21:49:18 <ais523> intercal compiler kludge
21:50:36 <ais523> haha: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/17/147237&from=rss
21:50:51 <ais523> summary: Microsoft's parental-control webfilter blocks Google
21:57:53 <oklopol> but a comment says that's untrue
21:58:22 <oklopol> ehird: after half an hour of scheme coding i get a loop of length 2 in the sorting process.
21:58:51 <oklopol> (not that much scheme, or even mistakes, just bad keyboard)
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22:07:45 <bsmntbombdood> well i guess ehird wins the cake for unreliable sorting
22:16:55 <oklopol> well that was my random enhancement of it
22:17:14 <oklopol> and clearly it was much better since ehird's had a cycle of one.
22:17:47 <oklopol> mainly i wanted to try scheme out
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22:26:06 <ais523> if you want an unreliable sort, why not use deterministic bogosort?
22:26:20 <ais523> it works like this: check if the list's in order, if it isn't then don't reorder it randomly, then repeat
22:31:17 <ais523> well, it depends on how the data's stored
22:31:27 <ais523> it might be stored such that it's O(n^2) to retrieve all the elements in order
22:33:20 <ais523> ah, if you stored the list in random order, as (element, index) pairs
22:33:29 <ais523> then in order to get all the elements in order, you'd have to sort by the index
22:33:53 <ais523> O(n) afterwards makes the thing O(n log n) altogether
22:34:09 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: just out of random, i checked out fusion sort when you asked about it, but it was too complex to understand without thinking, and i didn't feel like it.
22:34:48 <oklopol> ais523: i was just thinking that, checking for sortedness by sorting, then checking whether order changed :D
22:35:04 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: long story, just something a guy asked about, in here
22:35:20 <oklopol> well that might cause confusion
22:35:36 <ais523> even better, you can do that sort using deterministic bogosort
22:35:43 <ais523> and go into an infinite loop whether the list's originally correct or not
22:35:54 <oklopol> sorts and trees, what's the difference really.
22:36:16 <bsmntbombdood> there's a reason why volume 3 is called "searching and sorting"
22:37:51 <oklopol> ais523: so theta O(infinity)
22:38:06 <ais523> that's great for a best-case
22:38:25 <oklopol> well umm "theta O", my terminology has issues today.
22:39:03 <oklopol> i just called a plate a or cork or something, multiple times, before i realized it was wrong
22:39:34 <oklopol> Ξ© <<< i seem to have an omega
22:41:30 <oklopol> (also the cork was misinterpreted as a fork)
22:42:08 <oklopol> (also that's pure coincidence, i'm not sure it was cork i called the plate, and they don't rhyme in finnish)
22:42:38 <oklopol> (also i have to do this a third time ofc)
22:42:56 <oerjan> cork fork fort sort sport spore store stare state slate plate
22:44:42 <oerjan> the sort sort of came out of the conversation
22:45:13 <oklopol> i guess i shouldn't try to compete with you.
22:45:15 <ehird> 21:48 pikhq: Ubuntu? Ick. I'm using Gentoo on my desktop, and Debian stable on my router.
22:45:30 <ehird> Ubuntu is Debian w/ nicer out of the box experience and a non-insane release schedule.
22:45:37 <oerjan> Indeed, because then you would be DOOMED! BWAHAHAHA!!
22:45:54 <ehird> oklopol: i'm sure my algo could work with tweaks
22:46:03 <ehird> oklopol: instead of concatenating, why not interleave them in some magical way or sth
22:46:12 <oklopol> ehird: well i lexically sorted the pair
22:46:45 <oklopol> well you know you take evens and odds, recurse on them, and sort them lexicographically
22:47:25 <oklopol> because i wanted a deterministic alternative for the randomizing their appending order, and i didn't like your alternating sequence
22:47:44 <ehird> oklopol: a sorting algo needing a sorting algo is pretty shit isn't it
22:48:24 <oklopol> i was thinking you could use quicksort for sorting the 2-element lists.
22:48:29 <fizzie> korkki kokki lokki lakki laki lakin lakan laukan lautan *lautane lautanen; only the one marked with * is not really a mostly plausible Finnish word or a word form; it goes from cork to plate.
22:48:55 <ehird> oklopol: instead of concatenating, why not like
22:50:48 <ehird> oklopol: right now they're concatenated as 1 1 2 2
22:51:00 <ehird> oklopol: why not do 1 2 2 1
22:51:20 <ehird> oklopol: 'cuz it might make it no cycle? :D
22:51:36 <oklopol> i don't see how that's any better
22:51:51 <ehird> oklopol: it's like 3 code changers isn't it
22:53:04 <oklopol> wanna do my electronics homework for me
22:53:16 <ehird> oklopol: gimme the code thens?
22:53:33 <ehird> 22:48 oklopol: i was thinking you could use quicksort for sorting the 2-element lists.
22:54:35 <oklopol> well you know 2*log(2) is only 2, so it's linear!
22:55:04 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p546654421.txt <<< my random sorter.
22:55:15 <oklopol> also it does some bubblesorting on the side
22:55:39 <ehird> oklopol: err why does it bubblesort
22:55:40 <oklopol> but just one round at a time, it's just for shaking it up a bit so it doesn't get into cycles
22:55:49 <ehird> oklopol: but it still cycles? :D
22:56:21 <ehird> oklopol: wut scheme, mz-?
22:56:24 <oklopol> i was just hoping it'd be enough of a mess to produce a sort
22:56:52 <ehird> oklopol: so do you think my method has any chance of working properly
22:57:38 <oklopol> i wonder what the median of asymptotic average running times of sorting algos is...
22:58:10 <oklopol> ehird: naturally not counting that, it needs to sort all lists
22:59:06 <oerjan> the median could still be O(infinity)
22:59:26 <oklopol> if you let algos be randomized
22:59:28 <oerjan> assuming there is _always_ a slower algorithm, which seems obvious
23:00:05 <Deewiant> fizzie: ... lautan lautana lautasna lautasena lautasen lautanen
23:00:27 <pikhq> You can just as easily add some random calculation that's tossed if you insist on a less efficient algorithm.
23:00:37 <oerjan> otoh it depends how many shorter running there are, that could be infinite too. hm now it's really not obvious.
23:00:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: "lautasna" is a bit silly, yes. Am working on it too.
23:01:07 <ehird> oerjan: no, there's an upper bound
23:01:32 <oerjan> ehird: huh? you can always make an algorithm slower
23:01:39 <ehird> 23:00 oerjan: otoh it depends how many shorter running there are, that could be infinite too. hm now it's really not obvious.
23:01:48 <ehird> there is an upper bound to how shorter running it can be
23:01:53 <ehird> but no upper bound to how slow
23:01:55 <oklopol> oerjan: well naturally because there's an infinite amount of algos, we're talking about limit of median as program length approaches infinity, that may not even be well-defined (which you probably meant by median O(infinity), if we don't count randomized ones)
23:01:58 <ehird> so it's O infinity.
23:02:02 <oerjan> that's usually called lower bound :D
23:02:44 <oklopol> ehird: that has nothing to do with what the median will be
23:02:44 <oerjan> oklopol: it could even theoretically fluctuate widely with program size, although that seems unlikely
23:02:56 <ehird> oklopol: infinite slow ones, finite fast ones
23:03:02 <GregorR> Damn, some of my CNFI stuff is more specific to having integers be raw data objects than I'd realized ... with unboxed integers things get tricky :(
23:03:08 <oklopol> oerjan: might be interesting to try this out on a computational model that can barely sort, and nothing else
23:03:17 <ehird> GregorR: I'll fix it all.
23:03:21 <oklopol> ehird: finite fast ones? wut
23:03:40 <GregorR> ehird: Seeing as that you don't have write access to the spec, you won't be fixing that any time soon :P
23:03:56 <ehird> I can send a patch :<
23:04:21 <GregorR> Because it's ancient, it's a .odt :P
23:04:59 <ehird> GregorR: Anyway, how hard would it be to replace dplof?
23:05:01 <oklopol> first of all O(n^e) does not have a lower bound, when e is a real number, so while there's a lower bound for it, O(n), there is an uncountable number of possible small upper bounds.
23:05:30 <oerjan> oklopol: well without a model capable of bounded halting checking it may be hard to prove the algorithms can get really slow
23:05:33 <oklopol> second of all median of program complexities, not median of separate possible complexities,
23:05:47 <oerjan> since that's how the usual proof goes
23:06:15 <GregorR> ehird: The only missing component is the parsing engine.
23:06:28 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah it's true bad the answer might actually require thinking.
23:06:31 <GregorR> ehird: However, the parsing engine is also the most complicated :)
23:06:46 <ehird> GregorR: If the parser was written in Ploforth? No problem whatsoever.
23:06:59 <oklopol> oerjan: why do they need to get real slow?
23:07:08 <oklopol> there only needs to be more than one different complexity.
23:07:08 <GregorR> ehird: I fail to see how that's a solution.
23:07:24 <ehird> GregorR: You write the parser in Ploforth, so that it's portable across implementations.
23:07:43 <GregorR> ehird: That's why I wanted to write the parser in Plof, so it would be portable across implementations :P
23:07:51 <oerjan> oklopol: if they get real slow then the median need not be finite
23:07:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: korkki kokki lokki lakki takki taksi takasi takaisi lakaisi laukaisi laukaisin lautaisin lautasin lautasen lautanen
23:07:57 <ehird> GregorR: But it's not because you need a Plof parser to get the parser going which sux.
23:08:10 <oerjan> *need not be in one of the bounded classes
23:08:21 <pikhq> Plof's not too hard to bootstrap.
23:08:23 <GregorR> ehird: Except you don't, because the parser can be precompiled to PSL.
23:08:28 <Deewiant> I was only working from 'lautana' though :-)
23:08:31 <GregorR> ehird: And that precompiled PSL is portable.
23:08:34 <ehird> GregorR: That still involves an implementation.
23:08:43 <GregorR> ehird: Yes, it involves using dplof exactly once.
23:08:44 <ehird> And what if you want to use a new parser feature in it?
23:08:47 <ehird> you have to do without first
23:08:55 <ehird> GregorR: Right. So you have to maintain dplof.
23:09:04 <GregorR> ehird: Right, so I /don't/ have to maintain dplof.
23:09:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: The taxi part was a bit far-fetched; I pretty much took the "taksi-takasi" step and went both ways from that.
23:09:10 <oklopol> oerjan: well i'm kinda hoping the answer would be a complexity, and not just "unbounded".
23:09:14 <GregorR> ehird: I have to use it exactly once, to get the PSL, which is then self-sustaining.
23:09:22 <ehird> GregorR: I hate brittle bootstrapping processes.
23:09:25 <pikhq> ehird, I suspect, doesn't seem to get how Plof is implemented. ;)
23:09:31 <ehird> pikhq: I am well aware, thanks.
23:09:34 <oklopol> or O(infinity), although i still prefer just saying there's no limit.
23:10:33 <pikhq> Well, what's brittle about this bootstrapping process?
23:10:51 <ehird> It relies on a single, opaque file to bootstrap it.
23:11:00 <oklopol> oerjan: i mean that's the uninteresting answer, basically it means the question isn't well-defined
23:11:05 <ehird> Produced by an unmaintained compiler; and you can't reproduce it without itself.
23:11:17 <oerjan> oklopol: my guess is it
23:11:30 <GregorR> ehird: That's how hundreds of compilers are maintained ...
23:11:44 <oklopol> oerjan: doesn't have to be for tm's
23:11:47 <pikhq> That's how bootstrapping goes.
23:11:52 <ehird> GregorR: It's brittle regardless of that; and mostly only popular compilers do that.
23:11:56 <oklopol> can be for you know sorting automata.
23:11:58 <ehird> pikhq: And it's brittl.
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23:12:07 <pikhq> Well, except that sometimes the code in question is hand-compiled...
23:12:21 <ehird> pikhq: GregorR's name is not McCarthy.
23:12:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: Here's as close as I got, with a few rather creative compounds: lautana luutana luusana luukana luukasa *luutasa luutase luutasen lautasen lautanen
23:12:43 <pikhq> Anything better that you suggest?
23:12:48 <oerjan> oklopol: for a start it's by standard theorems undecidable whether something _is_ a sorting algorithm
23:12:55 <Deewiant> With 'luutasa' being a bit of a nonword
23:13:05 <GregorR> ehird: And your suggestion is: A) PSL is replaced with a Forth dialect, which is actually not a huge change but may be good, and B) the parsing engine is written directly in that Forth dialect.
23:13:14 <ehird> pikhq: Implement Plof's parser/compiler in the Low Level Language (PSL (well, via APSL), my proposed Ploforth, whatever).
23:13:17 <Deewiant> Hmm, there's an unnecessary luusana there as well
23:13:32 <ehird> pikhq: This makes the Plof implementation portable; the actual PSL/Ploforth interp can be simple and easy, and it isn't a brittle bootstrapping.
23:13:35 <ehird> Yet it's still meta.
23:13:59 <Deewiant> oklopol: Like said, a bit of a non-word. luu-tasa[paino] or something like that
23:14:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: To be honest, the "lautaisin" part in mine is a bit creative too. I'm not quite sure whether it means "the most wooden-plankest of them all" or just "I would wood-plankify it".
23:14:27 -!- Judofyr has joined.
23:14:34 <oklopol> Deewiant: sorry missed that. but yeah that's a non-word
23:14:40 <GregorR> ehird: My strategy also makes the Plof implementation portable, the actual PSL interp can be simple and easy (that's the whole idea), and so the only difference is your "brittleness" argument.
23:15:00 <oklopol> fizzie: both meanings are in frequent use
23:15:03 <ehird> GregorR: I was saying that mine had all the qualities you could want, and is less brittle.
23:15:25 <GregorR> ehird: But it depends on human-maintained code in Forth.
23:15:37 <oklopol> fizzie: have i mentioned i frequent sauna-building competitions?
23:15:38 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:15:39 <pikhq> And a PSL assembler.
23:15:45 <ehird> GregorR: But all you need to do
23:15:48 <ehird> is get the very basics working
23:15:52 <ehird> Then you can write the rest of the parser in plof
23:15:54 <ehird> building it up as you go
23:15:58 <pikhq> The only extant PSL assembler is part of dplof. ;)
23:16:08 <ehird> pikhq: That's not really a problem.
23:16:15 <GregorR> Wait, WTF ........ that last bit was confusing.
23:16:28 <GregorR> The parsing engine can't be built partially in one language and partially in another.
23:16:34 <GregorR> It's a redefinable ratpack parser.
23:16:51 <ehird> GregorR: Sure it can. You write the minimum needed to get a basic Plof in the LLL, then build it up to be more advanced in basicPlof.
23:17:17 <ehird> GregorR: You could even build mini-Plof as a nonextensible, dumb parser, then write the rest of the parser in that.
23:17:25 <GregorR> ehird: But that's what's already done. That's how the language is defined. But that all depends on having a working underlying parser.
23:17:38 <ehird> GregorR: It doesn't depend on having a Plof parser, does it?
23:17:56 <GregorR> It depends on having a user-definable parsing engine.
23:18:08 <ehird> GregorR: dplof/plof/ast/ast.d
23:18:15 <ehird> That looks very much like Plof support code.
23:18:24 <GregorR> ehird: That /reverses/ PSL code into AST code.
23:18:29 <GregorR> ehird: It's solely for debugging.
23:18:39 <ehird> GregorR: Then I think the current solution is best!
23:18:53 <GregorR> ........ there's a current solution?
23:18:59 <ehird> GregorR: With s/APSL/Ploforth/ to make the assembling easier, and to make the parser a bit more hand-maintainable.
23:19:28 <GregorR> Ah, you mean /your/ current solution.
23:19:43 <ehird> What is in the hg tree now.
23:20:02 <ehird> GregorR: So the reason cplof isn't the default is that only dplof has an assembler?
23:20:11 <GregorR> Only dplof has the parsing ENGINE.
23:20:26 <ehird> So write the engine in APSL/Ploforth. :P
23:20:52 <GregorR> The idea was to write the engine in Plof, then compile it to <language>.
23:21:05 <GregorR> Which you argue is brittle.
23:21:22 <ehird> I propose writing the engine in APSL/Ploforth as part of the core PUL implementation.
23:21:36 <GregorR> The core PUL implementation is written in Plof ;)
23:21:58 <ehird> GregorR: Yes but it isn't bootstrapped
23:22:04 <ehird> It's parsed by Ploforth as the simple core lang
23:22:15 <ehird> It's built on top of the APSL
23:22:21 <ehird> not bootstrap-compiled
23:22:47 <GregorR> Right. But to be clear, there are only some 100-so lines of PSL code before it tastes much more like Plof.
23:23:01 <ehird> GregorR: Let's put it this way
23:23:04 * pikhq needs to get the latest Plof.
23:23:15 <pikhq> Been at least a year since I pulled from Mercurial.
23:23:33 <ehird> GregorR: the parser engine is 705 lines of actual D -- including whitespace, comments, imports, yada yada yada.
23:24:39 <GregorR> 406 dplof/plof/prp/packrat.d
23:24:53 <ehird> GregorR: Now, decrufting a bit and moving into the LLL, which is high level in that you don't need to mess with pointers and whatnot
23:25:00 <pikhq> So, yes, 705 is the number.
23:25:02 <ehird> GregorR: I'd estimate about 500 lines or so?
23:25:08 <ehird> With a decent LLL. (Hint hint :-P)
23:25:17 <ehird> GregorR: It wouldn't have to implement PCRE
23:25:26 <ehird> Just do FFI shtuff.
23:25:44 <GregorR> In any condition this change implies going to Forth, so you can stop hinting about that. Doing this all in PSL is silly.
23:25:57 <ehird> I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
23:26:02 <GregorR> In some ideal happy universe it would be a very confusing 500 lines, sure.
23:26:23 <ehird> I really don't think a packrat parser is the epitome of hardity.
23:26:44 -!- olsner has joined.
23:26:55 <GregorR> A) Because Forth is Forth. B) Because FFI isn't the clearest thing on Earth. B) Because packrat parsers need dictionaries to maintain memoization.
23:27:38 <ehird> GregorR: A) I don't exactly mean ANS Forth. I just mean something with the same syntax. B) I see a flaw, then; and it's not with my idea. BΒ²) Dictionaries are objects. :P
23:28:18 <GregorR> My FFI is based directly on libffi, the idea was that the user language makes it pretty, not the bytecode instructions.
23:29:12 <GregorR> WHY INTERNET SO SLOW TODAY
23:29:18 <ehird> GregorR: I think inelegant bytecode instructions is probably not such a good idea.
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23:29:37 <ehird> GregorR: After all, not all impls will use libffi.
23:30:48 <GregorR> There's not much more you can do at the bytecode level. I've abstracted it a little bit from libffi, but the basic idea (put types in arrays, generate "cif" from arrays, dlsym to find symbol, call with cif, symbol and array of arguments) is about the best you can do at that level.
23:31:12 -!- iano has joined.
23:31:23 <GregorR> At a higher level you could maybe parse a C function declaration, etc etc, but I reaaaaaaaally don't feel it's a good idea to put that in the bytecode.
23:31:56 <iano> I'm not able to create a page on the esolang wiki
23:32:00 <ehird> iano: do you have an account
23:32:16 <GregorR> ehird: Maybe we should move this to #plof ;)
23:32:19 <iano> yes I'm logged in (IanO)
23:32:24 <ehird> iano: ask ais523? what's the error
23:32:37 <iano> "You don't have permission to access /w/index.php on this server."
23:32:49 <ais523> iano: are there any <div> or <span> tags in your new page?
23:32:59 <iano> ah! yes there are
23:32:59 <ais523> it's possible you're hinting Graue's quick-hack spam filter
23:33:04 <ais523> replace them with something else
23:33:16 <iano> is there any other way to specify colored text?
23:33:23 <ais523> use a different sort of containing element
23:33:26 <ais523> like <b>, for instance
23:33:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:38:22 <fizzie> "+/* oh god what i have done */" is not a very confidence-inspiring line in a patch.
23:38:32 <iano> Are folks here aware of the Rosetta Code wiki?
23:39:13 <iano> it aims to have comparative code samples between hundreds of programming languages
23:39:57 <iano> it would be great if folks could contribute more Befunge, Brainfuck, and SNUSP examples there.
23:42:04 <ais523> ah, could be interesting
23:42:10 <ais523> I may do the INTERCAL at some point, but not right now
23:42:17 <fizzie> ehird: It was in http://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2009/03/msg00417.html -- it's about the commit where they've importing the Ubuntu patches that fix the X crashes I had.
23:42:49 <iano> ais523: yes please!
23:42:51 <ais523> I'm busy trying to figure out how to do string handling in INTERCAL at the momen
23:43:04 <ais523> I think I'll have to start by implementing some form of malloc/realloc library
23:44:06 <ehird> ais523: βWhat ho, good sir! ITRALCEN has you covered!β
23:44:49 <ais523> that's an anagram of INTERCAL
23:45:12 <ais523> no relevant Google hits
23:45:24 <ais523> ehird: I think I'm missing the point; what is the point?
23:45:32 <oerjan> bfnegue and banukcfir are jolly good too!
23:45:49 <ehird> ais523: βITRALCEN comes with magical string support, using the unicode quote-unquote characters! It is ultra horrific!β
23:46:03 <ais523> I wanted to make it portable
23:46:30 <ais523> because a portable string-handling library is fun because C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL do string I/O very differently
23:47:55 <oerjan> t e o o ob,ta steqetonisu h ith e ttnr,bo
23:49:28 <ais523> could someone write a fungot plugin to decode/undecode those?
23:49:29 <fungot> ais523: will i be able to type it all in one
23:49:43 <ais523> fungot: apparently not, you stopped berfore the word "line"
23:50:32 <ehird> 23:49 fungot: ais523: will i be able to type it all in one
23:50:32 <fungot> ehird: isn't it? you could use
23:50:50 <ais523> someone should plug fungot into mezzacotta
23:50:51 <fungot> ais523: waiting at 4am for code to be run as a service because they're explicitly designed to do a
23:52:35 <oerjan> *t e rntt e hti h usinoteqets at,bo o o,bo
23:53:25 * oerjan had to write a haskell function to do that correctly
23:54:30 <oerjan> the inverse seems a little trickier, hm
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00:03:49 <oerjan> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!INTERCAL
00:04:12 <ehird> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!an green butt!
00:04:19 <ehird> It doesn't like me./
00:04:20 <oerjan> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!INTERCA
00:04:35 <oerjan> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!INTERCALS
00:05:40 <ehird> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!ANBUTTACULARINTERCAL
00:06:15 <oerjan> fungot: why are you ignoring ehird?
00:06:17 <fungot> oerjan: to use the fnord engine has trouble with non-local tco, particularly in scheme, besides academic or learning porposes?
00:06:51 <ehird> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!ANBUTTACULARINTERCAL
00:06:57 <ehird> ^bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]!an green butt!
00:07:06 <ehird> I love that obfuscation method
00:07:17 <oerjan> ^def srmlebac bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<<[.<<]
00:07:31 <oerjan> ^srmlebac Testing, ho!
00:08:07 <ehird> oerjan: Write a decoder?
00:08:12 <ehird> ^srmlebac Tsig o!h,nte
00:08:18 <ehird> ^srmlebac Ti !,tenhogs
00:08:23 <ehird> ^srmlebac T ,ehgsont!i
00:08:51 <oerjan> it's a permutation so it must have a period...
00:09:17 <fizzie> It saves the user-defined commands.
00:09:20 <ehird> oerjan: length of message?
00:09:48 <oerjan> not necessarily, maybe in this case
00:09:52 <ehird> oerjan: in two case.
00:10:14 <oerjan> it's a factor of length factorial
00:10:19 <ehird> oerjan: Hahaha. Brilliant
00:10:35 <oerjan> well, that's just basic group theory
00:10:49 <ehird> I know. But it's nice.
00:10:58 <ehird> ^srmlebac srmlebac
00:11:01 <ehird> ^srmlebac smeacblr
00:11:04 <ehird> ^srmlebac seclrbam
00:11:13 <ehird> oerjan: it's most often two, I guess.
00:12:18 <ehird> ^srmlebac Whathogoodsir
00:12:21 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wahgosridooth
00:12:26 <ehird> ^srmlebac Whordohtoisga
00:12:29 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wodhosagitorh
00:12:32 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wdoaiohrtgsho
00:12:35 <ehird> ^srmlebac Woihtsohgroad
00:12:37 <ehird> ^srmlebac Witogodarhsho
00:12:40 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wtgdrsohhaooi
00:12:43 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wgrohoioahsdt
00:12:45 <ehird> ^srmlebac Wrhiastdhooog
00:12:47 <oerjan> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]!ITRALCEN
00:12:57 <ehird> oerjan: 9, in this case
00:13:18 <ehird> ^srmlebac abcdefghijklmnopqrst
00:13:21 <ehird> ^srmlebac acegikmoqstrpnljhfdb
00:13:23 <ehird> ^srmlebac aeimqtplhdbfjnrsokgc
00:13:32 <oerjan> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]!ITRACEN
00:13:45 <oerjan> ^bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]!ITRASLCEN
00:14:07 <oerjan> ^def uenlsbcmra bf >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
00:14:18 <ehird> ^uenlsbcmra an big butt lmao!
00:14:25 <ehird> ^scramble an big butt lmao!
00:14:37 <ehird> ^srmlebac an big butt lmao!
00:15:48 <oklopol> yeah i just reversed both algorithms in my head.
00:16:17 <oklopol> so what's the cycle oerjan
00:17:13 <oerjan> probably length dependent, and only that
00:17:22 <fizzie> For those who have trouble running it mentally, I also added ^scramble-^unscramble aliases.
00:17:38 <fizzie> oerjan: Not really; for "aaaaa" it is always 1.
00:17:51 <oklopol> oerjan: what fizzie said but without explaining, just saying.
00:18:39 <oklopol> oerjan: but assuming obfuscating x1x2x3..xn, please calculate cycle length because i need to know it
00:19:28 <oklopol> (by that i meant xi as in character number i, not a variable)
00:19:58 <oerjan> well it goes to x1x3x5...x4x2
00:22:01 <fizzie> Just manually test for strings 1, 12, 123, 1234, 12345, 123456, 1234567 and then feed those numbers to the On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences.
00:22:08 <fizzie> That's what I always do. :p
00:22:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
00:22:52 <oklopol> i was just about to suggest that
00:23:05 <oklopol> but ended up not remembering what the encyclopedia was called
00:23:23 <oklopol> clearly it's very unintuitive
00:23:52 -!- coppro has joined.
00:24:03 <fizzie> I only ever remember that it's the first Google-hit for "integer sequence".
00:24:27 <oklopol> and i always remember its abbreviation is OEM.
00:28:02 <ehird> That's a nice pseudorandom number generator. :P
00:28:58 -!- ehird has set topic: We could do with a useful topic | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
00:29:05 <coppro> I didn't even realize you came on here... you aren't in ##nomic
00:29:25 <ehird> ##nomic grew out of #ircnomic, which I co-founded, actually.
00:29:38 <ehird> I have op-related disagreements.
00:30:01 <oerjan> ok, seems to be http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558
00:30:04 <coppro> isn't there some command to find the topic of a channel without actually being in it?
00:30:04 <ehird> (It was birthed out of this place; it's actually what got me and ais523 to join Agora.)
00:30:12 <ehird> coppro: TOPIC #chan?
00:30:25 <coppro> ah, good, it's just my client then
00:31:16 <oerjan> /list #chan is why i use, hm is that the same...
00:32:23 <oerjan> just a bit more information
00:32:51 -!- coppro has set topic: #rootnomic.
00:33:07 -!- coppro has set topic: We could do with a useful topic | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
00:33:33 <oerjan> oh interesting, /topic gives a slightly different result depending on whether the channel is non-public or non-existent, while /list doesn't distinguish
00:35:00 <pikhq> Interesting: TPB's sentence seems to be having a bit of backlash.
00:35:08 <pikhq> Piratbyran has gained 5,000 members.
00:35:21 <coppro> Oo last I heard it was at 3000
00:35:35 <pikhq> That was 3,000 and counting.
00:35:40 <coppro> Does any language development take place here?
00:35:59 <ehird> Mostly we just mess with fungot.
00:35:59 <fungot> ehird: look at how erlang implements it, given that with it.
00:36:10 <ehird> coppro: he's written in befunge-98: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
00:36:10 <fungot> ehird: am i funny to you?
00:36:15 <fungot> ehird: everytime i read through the presentation, or was it 1024 and 2048 even. sounds interesting, too.)
00:36:30 <oerjan> ehird and GregorR were just discussing plof, which is admittedly not esoteric, though it is homebrewed
00:36:39 <ehird> oerjan: Yeah, that's all gone to #plof atm.
00:36:42 <pikhq> We moved to #plof.
00:36:47 <ehird> oerjan: Also, it's quite esoteric...
00:36:59 <ehird> Especially the implementation details.
00:37:08 <pikhq> ehird: It's merely little-known and vaguely odd.
00:37:15 <coppro> Erlang would be esoteric if it weren't for the radical threading model
00:37:24 <pikhq> Unlike esolangs, it's meant for most people to be able to use. ;)
00:37:26 <ehird> coppro: ... which makes it not esoteric?
00:37:29 <ehird> I don't think I follow :D
00:37:49 <coppro> well, look at the thing.
00:37:52 <ehird> pikhq: There's nothing stopping you replacing all the syntax with BF.
00:37:53 <coppro> 4 statement terminators!
00:38:01 <oerjan> oklopol: the encyclopedia description of that sequence seems to have nothing to do with permutations, though
00:38:03 <ehird> coppro: Eh, not that much more than Prolog.
00:38:11 <pikhq> There's nothing stopping you from making Plof into a Tcl implementation, either.
00:38:13 <ehird> Erlang basically ripped Prolog's syntax.
00:38:16 <coppro> is prolog that bad too?
00:38:49 <ehird> It's pretty much identical, but not quite as symbol-heavy.
00:38:53 <ehird> IMO, Prolog is prettier than Erlang.
00:39:09 <coppro> and the only other language for the VM is Reia, which I don't like for other reasons :(
00:39:30 <ehird> coppro: Haskell has an Erlang bridge, I think.
00:39:35 <ehird> That lets you write and interact with nodes in Haskell.
00:39:38 <pikhq> When Plof is set up well enough, I might make a Tcl implementation in it.
00:39:48 <coppro> that's different from running on the VM
00:39:53 <ehird> pikhq: By actually turning Plof into it? How Forth :-P
00:40:05 <ehird> coppro: Well, what's so hot about the VM apart from the threading?
00:40:05 <pikhq> ehird: Plof is a language that demands it.
00:40:20 <ehird> coppro: You can use the threading from Haskell, then. :-P
00:40:29 <GregorR> Haskell has a threading model? ;)
00:40:30 <pikhq> If you will recall, I wrote PEBBLE by making Tcl into PEBBLE. ;)
00:40:37 <ehird> GregorR: I meant erlang threading
00:40:52 <oerjan> oklopol: i guess it would be explained if the scrambling in some way _is_ multiplication by 2 (mod 2n+1), which sounds a bit likely
00:40:54 <coppro> that sounds worse than just using Erlang
00:41:15 <ehird> ... Adding Haskell to something makes it worse?
00:41:34 <ehird> coppro: you've just made an amazing scientific discovery. I didn't previously consider that possible ;-)
00:41:46 <coppro> no, but trying to deal with it through a bridge sounds worse
00:43:52 <coppro> BEAM also has single assignment!
00:44:12 <oklopol> oerjan: so there's something really awesome going on in here?
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00:44:36 <oerjan> the first part looks like multiplication by 2, the rest - not so much
00:44:59 <ehird> oerjan: 3 5 7. Odd numbers ascending.
00:45:04 <ehird> So, uh. Descending.
00:45:33 <ehird> oerjan: So scrambling sorts it into even and odd sets.
00:45:36 <oerjan> perhaps the +- 1 part of the sequence definition enters into that somehow
00:45:43 <ehird> ^scramble 123456789
00:45:49 <oklopol> ehird: that's kinda obvious :P
00:46:01 <ehird> oklopol: not to oerjan, see "not so much"
00:46:58 <oklopol> ehird: well. if that partitioning should show why it's multiplication by 2, then i guess i don't understand either.
00:47:11 <oerjan> ehird: what oklopol said
00:47:32 <oerjan> although point: it's multiplication mod 2*n+1, not mod n
00:47:35 <oklopol> oerjan: would you really say the "well" part tho?
00:48:39 <oklopol> are the 9 and stuff somehow negative numbers err....
00:48:43 <coppro> I just had such a bad thought that I'm almost certainly going to have to implement it...
00:49:58 <oklopol> oerjan: can you prove it's that by induction?
00:50:18 <oklopol> by that i mean would you do that, i don't want to, i just want results :P
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00:50:52 <oerjan> to make it mod 2n+1 you would pad with some extra positions, around the original ones
00:54:49 <ehird> ^scramble 9876543210
00:55:01 <ehird> Ooh, that one wraps.
00:57:42 <oklopol> lament: the a's are scrambled correctly on my screen.
00:57:55 <oklopol> what order are they in on yours?
01:07:46 <Ilari> ^scramble abcdefgh
01:07:53 <Ilari> ^scramble 01234567
01:08:37 <ehird> Challenge: Make scrambles that result in coherent english both ways.
01:10:24 <Ilari> ^scramble 12345678
01:11:25 <Ilari> So (1)(2358)(47)(6) for 8 elements, cycle length 4.
01:11:30 <Ilari> ^scramble 1234567890
01:12:44 <oerjan> Ilari: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558 although that may just be more confusing :D
01:13:03 <Ilari> So (1)(235947860) for 10 elements, cycle length 9.
01:13:56 <oklopol> that does look a bit like multiplication tho
01:16:36 <ehird> ah I love my scramble algo
01:18:27 <ehird> oerjan: I started it off
01:18:35 <ehird> I invented it a year ago though
01:18:44 <oerjan> i thought you were quoting ais523
01:26:05 <Slereah> I for one welcome our new robot overlord.
01:42:22 <iano> is BF able to distinguish EOF from a zero byte?
01:42:46 <pikhq> Depends on the implementation.
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01:44:13 <oerjan> there are at least three different conventions
01:44:35 <oerjan> (1) EOF = 0 (2) EOF = -1 (3) EOF = no change
01:44:56 <iano> immediate quit is not an option?
01:44:57 <Sgeo> Bigger problem with my situation: If the entire place requires adult verification, how will unverified people be able to buy my product in-world?
01:45:28 <oerjan> iano: that makes things such as reversing input impossible
01:45:43 <iano> ok, fixing my interpreter...
01:46:26 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck#EOF
01:50:46 <Sgeo> It's probably cheating if I ask what esolang has +| and space as possible characters?
01:51:28 <pikhq> Sgeo: Adult verification? What, exactly, are you making in SL?
01:51:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, something that's not adult at all
01:51:47 <Sgeo> But my stall is near a store that is
01:52:03 <Sgeo> http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7457/nakedstall001.png my stall is on the right (NSFWishO)
01:54:12 <pikhq> Jeeze, man... I've got dialup. Could you make it any bigger? :p
01:54:50 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: try with cheese
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02:09:53 <iano> is there a ^see to list a ^def?
02:10:00 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
02:10:33 <iano> ^show scramble
02:10:33 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
02:10:57 <oerjan> fungot uses run-length encoding
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02:10:58 <fungot> oerjan: but it works.... any way to delete a value of type a can be any number...
02:11:12 <iano> ah, wondering about those "2" s
02:12:26 <oerjan> strange that it doesn't use it for all the >>'s
02:12:27 <iano> ^show unscramble
02:12:27 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
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02:24:02 <oklopol> <ehird> I invented it a year ago though <<< i've seen that "encryption" method tonswhere, not that it changes the fact you may have invented it, just wanted to use that term.
02:26:08 <oklopol> <pikhq> Jeeze, man... I've got dialup. Could you make it any bigger? :p <<< what's dialup? something cavemen used for clubbing dinosaurs?
02:26:30 <Sgeo> What "encryption" method?
02:28:36 * Sgeo waits for a response from the landlord about the adult thing
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02:29:33 <oklopol> also would be nice to have a more sophisticated referring-to-specific-messages method than copypasting them :)
02:30:06 <iano> oklopol: http://swfchan.com/7/32012/?56k_modem.swf
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04:52:06 <Gracenotes> hm. I wonder if something like Dasher for context-free grammars would be interesting/useful
04:52:48 <Gracenotes> mimicking leftmost derivation to produce syntactically correct programs by following your mouse
04:53:54 <Sgeo> 0,2528,129312,89888,86016,86016,4064,2080,2336,125216,77568,73984,123136,0,0,0
04:54:15 <Gracenotes> stop reminding me of how much Flash sucks on Linux :(
04:54:31 <Sgeo> http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix
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04:55:59 <Gracenotes> 'woes' being an understatement for the sadistically tortuous and ultimately fruitless exercise
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04:56:16 <Gracenotes> or, I suppose, masochistic, given that I was enough of a fool to try it in the first place
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15:54:56 <GregorR> Gracenotes: Y'know, for the last 11 hours or so, the only messages in #esoteric are you quitting and logging in (OK, a few log-ins and log-outs from other people)
15:56:12 <Robdgreat> I ignored those particular comings and goings about 7 hours ago
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18:11:06 <coppro> maybe I should make it let me sepll better
18:11:28 <AnMaster> but if it is secret why are you talking about it here...
18:12:48 <coppro> because it will be revealed here
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18:27:24 <GregorR> Some idiots outside my apartment are playing "toss the beanbag into a fucking wooden block", which seems to be a popular game amongst drunken frat morons, while also playing shitty music, so I'm employing some COUNTER-ELGAR
18:27:47 <pikhq> What, pray tell, does this entail?
18:27:49 <GregorR> Elgar played loud enough to drown out their shit.
18:27:57 <GregorR> Although the track just changed, so now it's counter-Holst.
18:29:14 <pikhq> Follow up with, say, counter-Pink Floyd. Give them the joy that only progressive rock can give. :p
18:29:24 <GregorR> Yeah, I'm gonna go with no.
18:33:54 <GregorR> A composer whose wildly underrated, unfortunately.
18:34:32 <GregorR> His music causes you to forget how to use verb tenses and homonyms.
18:37:36 <oklopol> i just didn't know it was a human's name even though i think i actually do know him if he's classical
18:37:53 <oklopol> didn't realize you were that kinda dude although i should've
18:38:00 <oklopol> right you corrected youself.
18:40:42 <GregorR> Well, aside from the fact that he's Romantic era and collapsing all music more than 109 years old into the group "classical" is silly, yes.
18:41:18 <oklopol> well i thought i should probably correct that because i'd get some gay comment like that if he wasn't actually classical
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18:41:33 <oklopol> but then i realized that matterd not
18:41:58 <oklopol> hiding the fact i don't know shit about non-modern genres either wouldn't change the fact i don't
18:42:15 <pikhq> So, you listen to less-than-recent music.
18:43:32 <GregorR> Yes, I listen exclusively to 80s music X-P
18:44:06 <pikhq> Wow, the decade I almost completely skip over!
18:44:11 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Elgar played loud enough to drown out their shit. <-- :D
18:47:08 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm, wouldn't Beethoven work better than Elgar in this case? Lets say his no.5 :D
18:47:26 <GregorR> I'm just shuffling my playlist *shrugs*
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18:48:00 <pikhq> Music from 109 years and older is music that I enjoy when I hear it, but I don't have any of it, so I don't know much about it...
18:48:01 <GregorR> I'm on Beethoven's symphony 4 now, which also isn't /hugely/ suited to the purpose of drowning out their garbage.
18:48:11 <AnMaster> GregorR, so what do you listen to when it comes to what is popularly called "classical" (of course it is the wrong word, but I don't know any better either)
18:48:23 <pikhq> And therefore, I end up not knowing where to start.
18:49:00 <GregorR> AnMaster: My favorite is the 19th century Russian composers, e.g. Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Balakirev, etc.
18:49:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, personally I rather like the actually classical music. Mozart, Haydn, Kraus and so on
18:49:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm... haven't listened much to them.
18:49:52 <AnMaster> the names do ring bells though.
18:50:16 <GregorR> Go find Borodin's Nocturne ... argh, right now I don't remember exactly which nocturne it is, one sec.
18:50:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, Borodin... Hm some opera "Furst <something>"?
18:50:44 <GregorR> Right, nocturne from string quartet #2
18:51:32 <AnMaster> ah it is the Swedish name for it...
18:51:49 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Igor
18:52:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, ever listened to Kraus?
18:52:14 <M0ny> ΠΠ½ΡΠ·Ρ ΠΠ³ΠΎΡΡ :D
18:52:24 <GregorR> Yeah, but I don't own anything by him.
18:52:25 <oerjan> <GregorR> Doesn't ring a bell ... <<< with classical music, there's probably some way to make that a pun
18:52:39 <AnMaster> I can highly recommend Kraus' Sinfonia in C sharp minor. (VB 140 iirc)
18:53:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, Especially the fourth movement in it. Somehow reminds me of the last movement in Vivaldi's Summer.
18:53:55 <GregorR> AnMaster: OK, you listen to Borodin's nocturne and I'll listen to that :P
18:54:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'll see if I can find it somewhere. I think I have a CD with mixed Russian composers. Let me check if it is on there. brb
18:54:49 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSdMKJqnnW4 <-- I believe this is it
18:54:58 <GregorR> Just searched on youtube, haven't started listening to check :P
18:55:10 <oerjan> <GregorR> Gracenotes: Y'know, for the last 11 hours or so, the only messages in #esoteric are you quitting and logging in (OK, a few log-ins and log-outs from other people)
18:55:23 <AnMaster> <GregorR> Right, nocturne from string quartet #2
18:55:23 <oerjan> i was starting to wonder if clog was acting up again
18:55:34 <oerjan> but no whole hours seem missing
18:55:38 <GregorR> The nocturne is a movement :P
18:55:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, then I have it on that cd
18:56:19 <GregorR> It's probably Borodin's most popular piece, but for good reason.
18:57:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, as for Kraus' VB 140 (fourth movement: Allegro). I couldn't find it on youtube when I looked some time ago. I do have it on cd
18:57:48 <oerjan> <GregorR> Some idiots outside my apartment are playing "toss the beanbag into a fucking wooden block", which seems to be a popular game amongst drunken frat morons, while also playing shitty music, so I'm employing some COUNTER-ELGAR
18:57:57 * oerjan whistles "Land of hope and glory"
18:58:09 <oerjan> mind you, that's the only Elgar i know
18:58:27 <GregorR> Unfortunately, your whistling does not appear to have reached here.
18:58:39 <GregorR> Hahahah, they left! I win!
18:58:40 <oerjan> i can do little about that
18:59:45 <AnMaster> I might have found it on there. *checks if it is good quality*
18:59:51 <oklopol> GregorR: i guess toss the nerd isn't popular anymore
19:00:03 * oerjan used to watch the promenade concert, long ago when he actually watched tv
19:00:13 <GregorR> oklopol: The prerequisite "break into somebody's apartment" isn't so popular
19:01:07 <oklopol> GregorR: right, i guess i'm old-fashioned.
19:01:55 <oklopol> i never used to watch tv, but nowadays it's always on in my favorite pizza place :|
19:02:25 <oklopol> and when it's not, there's usually a newspaper, which ofc is even worse
19:02:50 * GregorR watches TV until pinkish-grey goo starts to melt out of his ears.
19:03:28 * oerjan still reads newspapers at his favorite place too
19:03:37 <AnMaster> GregorR, seems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbhA7NRZTZ0&fmt=18 to contain two variant of it, first Kraus' reworked variant in C minor, followed by the one I prefer: the original in C sharp minor.
19:03:49 <oerjan> they do have a tv but it's in the children's corner and only plays dvd movies
19:03:53 <AnMaster> it is only the last movement in both
19:04:12 <GregorR> AnMaster: What a weird way to post that, then :P
19:04:16 <pikhq> TV? Isn't that the low-resolution monitor with a DVD player hooked up to it that's near the couch?
19:04:19 <oklopol> oerjan: i'd probably prefer the kids' movies.
19:04:48 <oerjan> oklopol: well, there _are_ several children's movies i've only seen on that tv :D
19:05:57 <AnMaster> GregorR, also this is not the best recording I heard. I prefer the one I have on CD (by the Swedish Chamber Orchestra) which feels more "stormy" kind of.
19:07:21 <AnMaster> GregorR, so what do you think of them?
19:07:35 * AnMaster is listening to that nocturne atm
19:07:50 <GregorR> I just started listening. Was stupidly plodding around trying to find the start of the second one, but instead I'm just listening through both.
19:07:58 <GregorR> This is most certainly classical music.
19:08:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, yes, he died one or two years after Mozart did iirc
19:09:07 <oerjan> <oklopol> i just didn't know it was a human's name even though i think i actually do know him if he's classical
19:09:26 <oerjan> it _does_ sound like a good name for a moose, especially to norwegians :)
19:09:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, you never heard of Elgar before!?
19:10:04 <oklopol> norwegian for moose? i think i have a pen that has a picture of a moose and elg under it
19:10:13 <GregorR> ... there are Meese in Norway?
19:10:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: <* oerjan whistles "Land of hope and glory"
19:10:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh ok, didn't see that
19:10:48 <oerjan> i thought moose and elk were mostly synonyms
19:11:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think they differ in size or?
19:11:17 <AnMaster> moose being the larger Canadian ones
19:11:19 <GregorR> AnMaster: The end of one going into the beginning of the next was a bit jarring there X-D
19:11:36 <GregorR> The moose (North America) or elk (Europe), Alces alces, is the largest extant species in the deer family.
19:11:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, there was a pause between them
19:11:54 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, but not so long that the key change didn't make me go "gwar!"
19:12:01 <GregorR> I had no idea elk and meese were the same.
19:12:20 <GregorR> I know, but "meese" is so much funnier.
19:12:43 <oerjan> GregorR: also, elk in north america is used for a different animal too
19:12:56 <GregorR> "Confusingly, the word elk in North America refers to the second largest deer species, Cervus canadensis, also known as the wapiti." <-- yeah, that's why
19:13:06 <AnMaster> GregorR, well what do you think of the second one? As I said, not the best recording I heard, but quite ok. And it is really a lot better experience hearing the entire symphony in the right order.
19:13:08 <GregorR> 'cuz I know of that Elk, and didn't think they were meese.
19:13:36 <GregorR> AnMaster: I agree that the original was better.
19:13:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, this nocturne is quite nice.
19:13:40 <GregorR> AnMaster: Both good though.
19:13:40 <oklopol> sofar the kraus piece sounds like a random collection of trivial etudes
19:14:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, see what I meant when I said it made me think of the last movement in Vivaldi's summer?
19:14:25 <oklopol> that usually means i need to listen to it a few more times, but i prefer just saying because i like disliking old stuff.
19:14:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, oh I love Vivaldi's summer too btw :)
19:15:02 <AnMaster> "<oklopol> *it" err -> <oklopol> that usually means it need to listen to it a few more times, but it prefer just saying because it like disliking old stuff.
19:16:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, the original makes sense, none of the changed versions do
19:16:07 <oklopol> hint: something's missing an object
19:16:53 <GregorR> When correcting yourself goes wrong.
19:17:16 <AnMaster> anyway you really need to listen to all four movements of VB 140 to get the right experience.
19:17:29 <oerjan> also, http://www.halge.com/
19:17:32 <AnMaster> they build upon each other very nicely
19:17:38 <oklopol> the second version is great btw, not that i wouldn't known they :D
19:17:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, thought HΓ€lge was Swedish?
19:18:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, fail to parse correction
19:18:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, pretty sure it is Swedish even
19:18:36 <oklopol> the second version is great
19:18:49 <oklopol> but i didn't recognize the beginning to be the same as the first one
19:18:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, thought you implied it was Norwegian
19:18:53 <oerjan> also, he's been translated to norwegian and i've read some in the library
19:19:07 <oklopol> although i did recognize the stuff after that
19:20:25 <GregorR> Swedish, Norwegian, 'ts all "European" to me.
19:20:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, and yes it isn't simply transposed, there are some minor other changes
19:23:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, I liked that nocturne btw, though I prefer music from the classical era.
19:24:08 <AnMaster> back to figuring out how to select a non GM bank by midi on this keyboard.
19:24:34 <oklopol> AnMaster: you compose right
19:26:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't have the creative part needed for composing I guess. I wouldn't know where to start. Improvising (which I can do but I'm not very good at) maybe?
19:27:51 <oklopol> err i think when i was a kid i usually took a random chord sequence, and improvised on it until something came out
19:28:00 <oklopol> nowadays i tell my brain to gimme a song
19:28:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, the reason I was checking this out is that I recently (few days ago) got a new electrical piano. Unlike my old electrical piano, this one is full size and the keys feel much more like a real piano. And the sound is much more realistic too. Downside: way heavier than the old one.
19:29:03 <oklopol> another thing you can do is make variations on existing songs.
19:30:02 <oklopol> i has a 3000β¬ electrical piano, a 300β¬ synthesizer and a very expensive piano (not mine) here
19:30:48 <oklopol> i have another electrical piano, but it's kinda unused atm
19:30:55 * AnMaster tries making a variation of this russian folk song by Beethoven for which he happened to have the music sheet within reach.
19:31:31 <AnMaster> urgh. that didn't work out very well.
19:31:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, I can't translate β¬ to SEK
19:32:03 <oklopol> err i think the course was like 10:1 at some point
19:32:42 <AnMaster> google says 3000β¬ would be roughly twice as expensive as the electrical piano I bought a few days ago
19:33:04 <oklopol> anyway i used to have pretty explicit techniques for composing, unfortunately i don't anymore.
19:33:35 <oklopol> the only explicit thing i do is deciding to use a certain element and tell my brain to gimme a song that uses it :P
19:34:27 <oklopol> (i compose all the time compulsively)
19:34:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&q=3000+EUR+in+SEK&meta=&aq=f&oq=
19:34:53 <AnMaster> oerjan: <AnMaster> google says 3000β¬ would be roughly twice as expensive as the electrical piano I bought a few days ago
19:35:21 <oerjan> well, stop contradicting yourself
19:35:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, I noticed I did have a browser window open after I said it
19:35:45 <AnMaster> otherwise I would have waited for someone else
19:36:18 <oklopol> when i bought it, the models that were better were only different in that they had this "adjusting to surroundings" thing where you left them alone for 30 minutes to play alone and learn how to sound like a grand piano in a small room.
19:38:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, mine certainly doesn't have it
19:38:32 <AnMaster> it is a rather basic Roland FP-4
19:38:53 <oklopol> mine is a yamaha i think. but dunno. not really into details.
19:39:05 <oerjan> oklopol: sounds like a megalomaniac AI. are you sure this is safe?
19:39:30 <oklopol> oerjan: there's a reason i didn't buy one.
19:39:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, also it is way more money that I would like to put on an electrical piano. :P
19:40:05 <AnMaster> in fact more than I could afford
19:40:31 <oklopol> the best ones would've been like 5000
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19:41:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, I wouldn't be able to afford that.
19:42:01 <oklopol> well, my parents had jobs at the time.
19:42:23 <oklopol> 3000 is nothing if you have a job.
19:42:49 <oklopol> i mean i get like 400 a month and i could afford that easily
19:43:18 <oklopol> maybe even two of them, although admittedly that would be an outrageous lie.
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19:51:14 <ehird> 17:10 coppro: my seccret project
19:51:19 <ehird> secrete copprophilia
19:55:08 <oerjan> ehird you like nick puns, so...
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20:35:12 <ehird> AnMaster: You could do one syllable lyrics.
20:35:36 <ehird> It wouldn't be much of a rhythm. More a plod.
20:36:04 <AnMaster> ehird, or you could a different meter for the lyrics than the music. And call it "experimental modernistic" or something like that
20:36:28 <ehird> Ehh, I have songs with instruments playing in different time signatures.
20:36:56 <AnMaster> ah, you managed to confuse me there.
20:37:52 <oerjan> weapons of uzbek terrorists
20:38:25 <ehird> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES6DSbPBBSE β this has multiple instruments playing simultaneously in different time signatures, although admittedly calculated so they sync up)
20:41:28 <AnMaster> how are those video ids on youtube decided?
20:42:11 <AnMaster> is it some form of checksum? Or just a ever-increasing counter?
20:42:22 <coppro> Probably randomly (UUID or the like)
20:42:26 <ehird> semi-random or checksum
20:42:31 <ehird> err, not semi-random, random
20:42:49 <ehird> maybe they use radioactive decay
20:42:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: given that the id is the _only_ distinguishing part, you'd think they would need to avoid collisions
20:42:52 <ehird> AnMaster: err wait
20:42:54 <coppro> It's not 36, there's upper and lowercase letters
20:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I think upper case, lower case, numbers, _ and - are all allowed
20:43:08 <coppro> yeah, I would guess 64
20:43:13 <oerjan> so a deterministic checksum would not work
20:43:31 <coppro> usually for this stuff you just make it random and repick when you find a collision
20:43:45 <ais523> hi coppro, I was wondering when you'd turn up over here
20:44:20 <coppro> ais523: as soon as I discovered it in a /whois
20:44:57 <ais523> I should have mentioned it earlier when you started talking about INTERCAL-variant Baudot, I suspect only about 10 people know of that
20:45:17 * AnMaster is listening to this electrical piano playing Arabesque very well (built in demo song thing, why do they include that? Do they think someone would buy a electrical piano because it has 67 built in demo songs?)
20:45:38 <oerjan> ^srmlebac As requested...
20:47:43 <ehird> take first character, type
20:47:47 <ehird> take next character, type
20:47:54 <ehird> abcdefg -> acegfdb
20:48:02 <ehird> ^unscramble acegfdb
20:48:16 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
20:48:21 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:48:25 <fizzie> You could've done just that.
20:48:33 <fizzie> To see where it came from.
20:48:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble was a dead giveaway anyway
20:49:08 <fizzie> Yes, I added the "plaintext" aliases so it's easier to remember.
20:50:05 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
20:50:10 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
20:50:22 <coppro> what's with the 2[ 2]?
20:50:37 <AnMaster> coppro, internal data for loops iirc
20:51:57 <oerjan> fizzie: you know why it replaces the << but not the >> ?
20:52:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, I asked that several seconds before, I guess you are lagged.
20:52:33 <fizzie> oerjan: Not really; I wondered about that, too.
20:52:54 <oerjan> but i didn't check after typing the line before pressing return
20:53:06 <fizzie> oerjan: It should replace both. There might be a: bug.
20:53:37 <FireFly> [21:52:17] <AnMaster> oerjan, I asked that several seconds before, I guess you are lagged.
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20:54:19 <ehird> ^unscramble unscramble
20:54:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: also, i pointed it out yesterday too, so you are enormously lagged ;)
20:54:26 <ehird> which is the unscramble cmd name ofc
20:55:09 <fizzie> ^def test bf <<<>>>+++---
20:55:10 <ais523> is that a reversible operatoin?
20:55:21 <ais523> ^unscramble uenlsbcmra
20:55:23 <fizzie> Yes, there seems to be some sort of bug wrt. >.
20:55:32 <ais523> ^unscramble uaernmlcsb
20:55:44 <ais523> ^unscramble ubasecrlnm
20:55:45 <oerjan> ais523: of course it's reversible, but not self-inverse
20:55:50 <ais523> ^unscramble umbnalsrec
20:55:55 <ais523> self-inverse is what I was thinking of
20:55:59 <ais523> ^unscramble ucmebrnsal
20:56:04 <ais523> ^unscramble ulcamsenbr
20:56:09 <ais523> ^unscramble urlbcnaems
20:56:09 <fizzie> ais523: Why would we have two instructions if it was a self-inverse?
20:56:11 <oerjan> ais523: we discussed cycle lengths yesterday
20:56:15 <ais523> ^unscramble usrmlebacn
20:56:16 <AnMaster> ais523, self inverse<q> Is that like rot13 you mean
20:56:23 <ehird> it's a factor of length factorial, says oerjan
20:56:29 <ehird> short strings last 3 cycles
20:56:36 <ehird> ^scramble anvirtuous
20:56:40 <ehird> ^scramble avruusotin
20:56:41 <olsner> doesn't every reversible function with the same in- and out-domain eventually cycle back to the original value?
20:56:43 <ehird> ^scramble aruointsuv
20:56:46 <ehird> ^scramble auituvsnor
20:56:48 <ehird> ^scramble aiusornvtu
20:56:51 <ehird> ^scramble auontuvrsi
20:56:54 <ehird> ^scramble aotvsirunu
20:56:57 <ehird> ^scramble atsrnuuivo
20:57:00 <ehird> ^scramble asnuvoiurt
20:57:21 <fizzie> ehird: A plausible integer-sequence link was also pasted, I guess you saw that too?
20:57:26 <oerjan> ais523: it was a known sequence in the encyclopedia of integer sequences, but it still wasn't obvious why the definition there fit
20:57:30 <AnMaster> I suspect that scramble always cycles in the long end.
20:57:34 <olsner> ^unscramble usrmlebacn
20:57:55 <coppro> proving it cycles is easy
20:58:12 <ais523> it obviously cycles, for the same reason that BackFlip programs always terminate
20:58:18 <AnMaster> I just didn't bother making a formal proof, thus I used "suspect"
20:58:22 <oklopol> avruusotin <<< space taker
20:58:28 <AnMaster> ais523, BackFlip is sub-tc then?
20:58:37 <oklopol> <olsner> doesn't every reversible function with the same in- and out-domain eventually cycle back to the original value? <<< no
20:58:38 <fizzie> oklopol: More like "spce taker".
20:58:46 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, obviously
20:58:52 <ais523> it doesn't even have infinite storage
20:59:03 <ais523> the fact that it always terminates is probably more interesting than the fact it's sub-TC, though
20:59:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't remember details of BackFlip *looks at wiki page*
20:59:17 <ais523> even more interestingly, Unassignable can be proven to always terminate along similar lines, and it's pretty high-level
20:59:21 <olsner> hmm, no, the original value doesn't have to be in the cycle... of course :(
20:59:26 <oklopol> olsner: there's this thing called multiplication
20:59:30 <ais523> olsner: it does if it's reversible
20:59:50 <oklopol> olsner: that's not the issue. it's in the cycle for permutations.
20:59:50 <olsner> oklopol: ooh, I might add that I meant the domain was finite
21:00:07 <AnMaster> ais523, "The first line of the file must be the longest and all lines below it are padded to its length with spaces, if necessary."
21:00:41 <ais523> to help interps allocate memory better
21:00:50 <oklopol> olsner: if the original weren't in the cycle, the inverse operation would be able to tell how many cycles you've gone around when you started undoing it after cycling a few rounds
21:01:21 <oklopol> a->b->c->b->c->b->c->..., if you started taking the inverse, it couldn't know when to give a
21:01:26 <ais523> oklopol: heh, that's sort of the opposite of the way I proved it, I was reasoning that in order to join the cycle there'd have to be some element in the cycle with two different inverses
21:01:53 <olsner> oh, the inverse and the forward function would have to have the same cycles I guess
21:01:54 <oklopol> ais523: hmm, i think that's exactly the same proof
21:02:37 <ehird> oklopol: the proof is its own inverse!
21:02:50 <AnMaster> ais523, hm. That would solve a lot in befunge. I could even do something like mmap() file, mmap() an equally large area and do a bulk copy then
21:03:40 <ais523> AnMaster: well, not exactly
21:03:52 <ais523> that means that the interp pads all lines to the same length as the first, not the input file
21:04:13 <oerjan> ais523: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558 was it
21:04:35 <AnMaster> ais523, could the first line end in some spaces?
21:04:53 <oklopol> oerjan: how long did you check btw?
21:05:11 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure, I normally use hyphens
21:05:13 <oerjan> should i paste the haskell?
21:05:54 <oklopol> oerjan: that's not very reliable, haskell can do infinite lists, so why cut it?
21:06:14 <oerjan> er, to print the output
21:07:01 <oerjan> i didn't see the point in checking further (i was just comparing by eye though)
21:07:22 <oerjan> as in, i didn't implement the definition on the website
21:07:42 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure element 65427 would've been different
21:07:54 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
21:07:55 <Sgeo> http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix
21:07:58 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>]
21:08:13 <ehird> ais523: this is all due to my ITRALCEN
21:09:10 <AnMaster> <oerjan> ais523: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A003558 was it <-- for what
21:09:31 <ais523> AnMaster: the number of iterations of ^scramble before it repeats
21:09:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out).
21:10:13 <ehird> Sgeo: 65536,0,32800,0,8192,0,4096,0,1024,512,256,0,16384,16,0,16384
21:10:24 <ehird> (copy that then right clickβpaste on tonematrix)
21:10:32 <oerjan> n is something like word length, but i didn't check if there's any increment
21:10:46 <oerjan> i.e. word length + something
21:10:50 <Sgeo> Firefox spontaneously decided to go strange
21:11:29 <ehird> Sgeo: 4098,5132,49168,92704,82112,32768,8356,16384,8722,13330,2338,2280,14352,20484,38912,3072
21:11:53 <Sgeo> ehird, hooked?
21:11:59 <ehird> I tried it earlier.
21:12:48 * Sgeo is attempting to make a random tonematrix generator
21:14:21 <ehird> they're just integers
21:14:49 <Sgeo> I want the user to be able to put in the number of rests and simultaneous tones
21:15:16 <Sgeo> Also, I'm doing this in Javascript
21:15:23 <ehird> Sgeo: ruby -e'16.times { print rand(131071), "," }; puts'
21:15:39 <ehird> Sgeo: ruby -e'16.times { print ",", rand(131071) }; puts'
21:15:41 <ehird> and omit the first ,
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21:16:30 <Sgeo> ehird, the random ones, or my thoughts?
21:16:43 <coppro> I feel sort of bad... I'm commenting an INTERCAL program
21:16:51 <Sgeo> <InitHello> annoying: 49154,128,49154,128,49154,49154,128,128,24578,128,24578,128,128,98306,128,128
21:17:00 <ehird> coppro: just make the comments meaningless
21:17:18 <ehird> Sgeo: what, that's awesome
21:17:21 <ais523> coppro: don't worry, I do it all the time
21:17:24 <ehird> coppro: see his unlambda interp
21:17:32 <ais523> the Google style guide recomments comments, but insists they're in allcaps
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21:19:24 <AnMaster> someone should count number of citations vs number of [citation needed] on wikipedia. Both total and as average ratio per article
21:19:37 <Sgeo> Can I safely use Javascript 1.6 stuff?
21:19:53 <Asztal> Sgeo: no, I don't think so
21:19:55 <ais523> I thought JavaScript 3 was out nowadays
21:20:22 <ehird> ais523: have you ever used a browser?
21:20:48 <AnMaster> there is more than one version of javascript? I thought it was just version with lots of implementation specific extensions on top
21:21:10 <ehird> AnMaster: you are so, so wrong.
21:21:12 <Sgeo> Well, I'm on the Mozilla site, so 1.6 according to Mozilla anyway
21:21:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I said "thought" not "think"
21:21:28 * Sgeo would really like to be able to use indexOf for this
21:21:38 <Sgeo> Or at least a way to check to see if an element is in an array.
21:21:40 <ais523> AnMaster: as of 16 september 2008, the last time the stats were calculated, there were 607524 uses of {{reflist}}, and 124868 of {{fact}}
21:21:41 <ehird> Sgeo: nobody will use it.
21:21:55 <ehird> ais523: reflist? there's other ways to do references.
21:21:58 <ais523> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MostLinkedTemplates
21:21:58 <Sgeo> Unless there's a better way to populate an array with random unique numbers?
21:22:02 <ais523> ehird: yes, but they're harder to count
21:22:19 <Sgeo> Well, I also need to check the array being used, so
21:22:21 <ais523> 127644 of {{unreferenced}}, by the way
21:22:39 <AnMaster> ais523, what about per-article average?
21:22:48 <ais523> divide by the number of articles
21:24:28 <AnMaster> ais523, so more citations than citation needed at that point of time?
21:24:35 <AnMaster> also when will that page next update
21:25:11 <ais523> AnMaster: when someone next runs that particular batch query, and I'm pretty sure it's a long way down the developer's list of priorities
21:25:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well why isn't it automatically updated?
21:25:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Why don't you buy them a fuckin' server?
21:25:52 <ehird> You know, so they can run tons of useless queries all the time.
21:25:58 <ais523> have you any idea how much processing it needs to scrape the whole of Wikipedia?
21:26:11 <ais523> nowadays they have a toolserver for that sort of thing, but it would take it weeks or months to recompile that list I expect
21:26:17 <ais523> and using a dedicated server for it would be a waste
21:26:23 <ehird> ais523: oh, I doubt it'd take that long
21:26:30 <AnMaster> ais523, you could add a field and update it on edit
21:26:32 <pikhq> ... Why scrape Wikipedia? They post database dumps on a regular basis.
21:26:34 <coppro> well once you have the initial metrics, you can update on edit
21:26:40 <coppro> and yeah, databse dumps
21:26:41 <ais523> pikhq: I meant, from the dumps
21:26:42 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah let's just have 100 fields for every edit
21:26:51 <ehird> ais523: if you run it on a multi-core system with a very fast disk I imagine you could do a few thousand articles a second
21:26:51 <ais523> also, updating templates on edit would be a real mess the way MediaWiki works
21:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, they already have "pages using this template"
21:26:58 <pikhq> Eh, I'd guess that Wikipedia would be freaking huge.
21:27:04 <ehird> AnMaster: that's different
21:27:11 <ehird> they maintain that index anyway
21:27:26 <ais523> there are several known tricks to correct it
21:27:39 <AnMaster> true, so how many pages use {{fact}} and how many use {{reflist}}
21:27:51 <AnMaster> as in not instances, but pages with instances
21:28:12 <AnMaster> ehird, put wikipedia on a ram disk :D
21:28:23 <ehird> AnMaster: it's called a solid state drive
21:28:32 <ehird> or, why not just fit WP in ram?
21:28:54 <ehird> i meant, 'a fast disk' meant SSD.
21:29:00 <AnMaster> and I specifically meant a ramdisk
21:29:07 <ehird> you can't get ram disks big enough for wp, I don't think.
21:29:16 <ehird> ssd is quick enough to scrape wp
21:29:19 <ehird> you have other benchmarks
21:29:28 <ehird> s/benchmarks/bottlenecks/
21:29:40 <ehird> AnMaster: So? My next machine will have 12GB of ram.
21:29:41 <pikhq> It'd be a wee bit pricy, but you could have all of Wikipedia in RAM.
21:30:00 <AnMaster> ehird, so just get a 32 GB RAM machine or such and use a part of it for a 12 GB RAM disk
21:30:01 <ehird> Put a minimal linux on there and you could fit most of WP.
21:30:17 <ehird> Or just read most of it in RAM, and have a one-time swapover cost.
21:30:22 <ehird> 32GB is expensive.
21:31:08 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, but the kind of person who wants to scrape WP can't afford 32gb of ram.
21:31:14 <AnMaster> ehird, or even more expensive: go for a massively parallel HPC computer/cluster
21:31:49 <ehird> 12GB of DDR3 RAM + 4-core machine + SSD disk to load it into RAM quickly = quite cheap mega-fast wikipedia processor.
21:32:03 <ehird> Quite cheap as these things go, that is.
21:32:09 <pikhq> ehird: I think I could just about afford that much RAM and a motherboard to use it. I'd be broke after doing so, but still...
21:32:40 <ehird> Yeah, I'll be pretty dry on cash after this. (But I never buy much.)
21:32:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, wikipedia will soon outgrow it
21:32:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Nah.
21:32:53 <pikhq> ais523: Well, yeah. I'd really rather not.
21:33:06 <AnMaster> I thought it was 12 GB of text
21:33:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't even think about images.
21:33:15 <AnMaster> does that include the talk pages?
21:33:24 <ehird> I'm not exactly getting 12GB of RAM to scrape WP.
21:33:26 <pikhq> ais523: Especially since the same funds could instead be spent to get me a nice Opteron motherboard with a couple of 4-core chips or some such. ;)
21:33:33 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: So load it into RAM.
21:33:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Well, w/ DDR3...
21:33:59 <ais523> I don't think there's ever been a successful official public backup of the image servers
21:34:09 <ehird> You'd still be IO-bound, but the bound wouldn't be much of a bound.
21:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, how much space do the images on wp use?
21:34:39 <AnMaster> also I'm pretty sure wp deletes old images.
21:34:44 <ehird> AnMaster: terabytes.
21:34:51 <ais523> how would image undelete work, then?
21:35:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well I have seen lots of images with the oldest revisions missing
21:35:14 <ehird> that's cuz they're before they were recorded, I guess.
21:35:15 <ais523> AnMaster: image undelete is relatively recent
21:35:22 <ais523> as in, only a few years old
21:35:42 <AnMaster> ais523, so what happened with those old revisions of it?
21:36:18 <ais523> well, there was a server crash which lost the entire deleted-stuff archives several years ago
21:36:38 <bsmntbombdood> "Currently Wikipedia does not allow or provide facilities to download all Images."
21:36:40 <ais523> also, deleting images used to just delete the image, although the metadata stayed in the article deleted-revision archives
21:36:44 <AnMaster> ais523, check the thumbnails in the history of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg
21:36:52 <AnMaster> ais523, tell me what happened there
21:37:02 <AnMaster> ais523, I get 403 Forbidden for old ones
21:37:12 <fizzie> Internet archive seems to be about 3 petabytes nowadays, and growing "about 100 terabytes per month"; it's nice that the petabyte gets some use too.
21:37:48 <AnMaster> what about google's "cached pages" archive?
21:38:08 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not entirely sure what's going on there
21:38:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well tell some wp devs or something about this issue?
21:39:06 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm sure it isn't their top priorit
21:39:21 <ais523> if you want to, email wikitech-l
21:39:24 <AnMaster> ais523, but I have seen this on lots of images
21:39:33 <ais523> which is a reasonable place to ask stupid questions
21:39:35 <fizzie> Haven't seen google speaking about their size. But there's one estimate (in wp) that global Internet traffic in one month is "5 to 8 exabytes".
21:39:45 <ais523> you need to subscribe first
21:39:51 <ais523> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=WP:ML
21:39:58 <ais523> I think there's a link to wikitech-l on there
21:40:16 <ehird> http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=745 β this is the most expensive ram evar
21:40:42 <AnMaster> <ais523> you need to subscribe first <-- meh
21:41:03 <ais523> you could also try asking on-wiki at [[WP:VPT]]
21:41:12 <ais523> * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=WP:VPT
21:41:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the domain name says it all :D
21:41:43 <ais523> the devs don't look there very often, but you get lots of other technically minded people there asking questions
21:41:50 <ais523> so they can often end up answering each other's questions
21:44:28 <ehird> Prediction: RAM will get so fast and large in coming years that they'll need fans.
21:44:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I have already seen RAM with fans
21:44:55 <Deewiant> ehird: I have Mushkin's DDR2 Redline (not sure if I told you that already so here you go)
21:45:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Good, are they?
21:45:33 <Deewiant> Beats me, I have nothing to compare to
21:45:51 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway how can you have missed ram with fans...
21:45:56 <Deewiant> They're better than the Kingston SDR I had before
21:46:03 <ehird> AnMaster: My little bubble of sanity.
21:46:11 <Deewiant> Or hmm, it might have been DDR1
21:46:18 <fizzie> Soon there'll be fans on fans.
21:47:18 <oklopol> Asztal builds spaceships for a living
21:48:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I have also seen chipsets with their own fans
21:48:39 <AnMaster> not sure if it was south or north birdige
21:48:40 <ehird> We should just make a fan-powered computer.
21:48:49 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:49:14 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you mean air streams instead of electricity...
21:49:32 <ehird> Your computer is just a tangled mass of many hundreds of tiny fans.
21:49:39 <ehird> With little bobbles as the memory.
21:49:59 <ehird> Bobbles of plastic.
21:50:19 -!- neldoreth has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:50:23 -!- neldoreth has joined.
21:50:50 <ehird> http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3461 β stuff about nehalem's puny l2 cache
21:50:51 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you register stuff though, I mean you would need electricity to power the fans yes, but risk is you end up with electricity for more stuff unless you are careful
21:50:51 <Deewiant> http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm is amusing and news to me
21:50:52 <impomatic> Also, does anyone have access to this paper "Van der Poel, W.L., 1956, 1962: The Logical Principles of Some Simple Computers."
21:51:19 <ehird> AnMaster: just have an external power supply thing, so that it's agnostic to how you power the fans
21:51:29 <fizzie> There's that MONIAC thing, though it's not exactly very programmable.
21:51:53 <AnMaster> ehird, can you would out a logic in this?
21:52:14 <fizzie> Just wikipediafy it. I can't move my mouse, X will crash. :p
21:52:44 <impomatic> And I've found a OISC which I can't find described anywhere.
21:52:53 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Just wikipediafy it. I can't move my mouse, X will crash. :p <-- wut
21:53:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, so this is like that think in "Making money" by TP?
21:54:08 <fizzie> Yes, that book is mentioned in the wp page.
21:54:39 <AnMaster> and for once I thought he actually made something up, "nothing can be this crazy in the real world"
21:55:19 <ehird> we just want shaped metal grids and fans.
21:55:20 <impomatic> Found as in it already existed in the Redcode instruction set, but no-one realised it's Turing complete by itself!
21:59:23 <impomatic> Corewar's DJN instruction. DJN A,B will subtract 1 from memory location B and jump to A if the result at location B is non-zero
21:59:27 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, what do you mean.
21:59:37 <ehird> impomatic: that's just subleq, minorly tweaked
21:59:50 * AnMaster was just about to say what ehird said
22:00:23 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, manually rank each page or what
22:00:25 <oklopol> kinda like C is a minorly tweaked potato
22:00:29 <ais523> subleq does subtractions
22:00:34 <ais523> whereas DJN does decrements
22:00:42 <ais523> subleq's 3-arg IIRC, DJN is 2-arg
22:00:44 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: YES I AM GOING TO MANUALLY RANK EACH PAGE IN WIKIPEDIA
22:00:46 <ehird> minor = instead of subtracting N, decrement
22:01:08 <ais523> I wouldn't call that minor
22:01:16 <AnMaster> <oklopol> kinda like C is a minorly tweaked potato <-- C minor or C major
22:01:22 <ais523> that's like calling a replacement of BF's + with genuine addition minor
22:01:49 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
22:02:07 <oklopol> except it's in the other direction, which imo makes it less minor.
22:02:12 <Deewiant> I'd call that minor as well :-P
22:02:13 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't subleq using a immediate rather than a memory address for number to substraction
22:02:24 <AnMaster> if so, it is very minor indeed
22:02:30 <ais523> AnMaster: subtract != decrement
22:02:36 <ais523> that's a big difference in any OISC
22:02:44 <oklopol> ais523: genuine addition can trivially do increment, increment can't trivially do addition
22:04:30 <ais523> ehird: do you still play Nibbles
22:06:45 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
22:09:06 <AnMaster> hm β is easy on this keyboard layout, never knew that before
22:10:39 <ais523> so that's 2 gigabytes, /compressed/?
22:15:56 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:16:15 <oerjan> ais523: i vaguely recall some subleq variant that used an accumulator instead of the first argument, so only had two
22:17:07 <ais523> impomatic: a killer app for Linux, IMO
22:17:13 <impomatic> It's not a trivial variant when it comes to runtimes ;-)
22:17:13 <ais523> it's basically multiplayer Snake
22:17:28 <ais523> where you can go around killing each other, in addition to just getting the things you're meant to get
22:18:15 <ais523> I wonder if fungot uses a two-way tape?
22:18:15 <fungot> ais523: gui programming sucks, no one cares ( except for ports), and run
22:19:15 <oklopol> impomatic: what's the algo?
22:20:53 <oerjan> ^bf ,[>,][<]>[.>]!test
22:20:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:21:13 <oerjan> ^bf ,[>,]<[<]>[.>]!test
22:22:17 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
22:23:34 <impomatic> MOV A, B = DJN 0, B / DJN 1, TEMP / DJN -1, A / DJN 1, A / DJN 1, B / DJN -2, TEMP
22:23:55 <oerjan> no use testing with fungot then, but i think my first > is unnecessary
22:23:57 <fungot> oerjan: doesn't intercal have a minuscule instruction set? hm. i got it, thanks a lot
22:24:08 <fungot> oerjan: we are different. it's not actually part of the list ( ( 1), the repl is awkward, but mostly, they all die and ppl start using a combination module, instead loading something else ( no true scientist has only one side of the world
22:24:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
22:24:43 <oerjan> i'd have thought intercal was a dead giveaway :D
22:24:53 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
22:25:03 <fungot> ais523: w016 don't type that so hastily abstained, it doesn't end with `try again'. first, marks where the compiler's looking; that may be wondering what happens if you submit a patch to a variable name and isn't an array must be made about unwoven threads is by changing `senestmax' in version 1.-94.-8 and c-intercal from 0.26 onwards, but must be onespot or twospot value as long as both resulting threads after the statement sh
22:25:21 <ais523> fungot: that was interesting...
22:25:21 <fungot> ais523: the way the scoping rules and recursion work), `libick.a', with the same way as `ick_linelabel' and `copying.txt' in the range of options that are sending. however, it will give this error can also be used freely and as a result was too surprised to finish off this appendix, here's the corresponding bit, which holds values of the group of idioms at the start menu then typing `cmd' ( *note e579::) to create a directory c
22:26:26 -!- fizzieds has joined.
22:27:02 <Deewiant> "What happens if you submit a patch to a variable name" indeed!
22:28:10 <oerjan> fungot: what is the recommended gui toolkit for intercal?
22:28:11 <fungot> oerjan: the only way to communicate between unwoven threads is by changing the abstention or reinstatement status of the twospot variable, these guarantees are somewhat complicated, and one of these contexts. the third and fourth, quantum intercal, this check generally makes more sense than explicitly specifying.' rather than letting the compilation process guess everything. in a program decides that it split off from since the
22:28:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic* irc lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
22:28:51 <ais523> it's the CLC-INTERCAL name for a particular multithreading extension, it isn't true quantum
22:29:08 <Asztal> shouldn't that .' there be a !?
22:29:08 <ais523> I believe zzo38 does have a true-quantum INTERCAl instruction set, but hasn't implemetned it yet
22:29:10 <fizzieds> right. that did not look irc.loggy.
22:29:51 <ais523> Asztal: no, ! is an abbreviation for '.
22:31:54 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
22:32:08 <kerlo> fungot: where did our species come from?
22:32:10 <fungot> kerlo: difference between field- and house-slaves. cattle, horses, and hybrids. -influence :) male, to surrounding objects, and over a fnord second :) time has created in/ galapagos islands nearly every land-bird, but only a theory on/ origin :) species
22:32:38 <kerlo> Darwin overused emoticons, in my opinion.
22:32:49 <oerjan> our evolution was far more scary than i thought...
22:33:08 <kerlo> I didn't know he was a fnord person.
22:33:40 * oerjan assumes kerlo knows how fungot works, and is just joking
22:33:42 <fungot> oerjan: bud-variations in. -recognition :) varieties :). -hildebrand's experiments on. -flowers :). -p. fnord, ejected.
22:33:45 <fizzieds> should fix that particular model.
22:33:56 <ais523> oh no... <Microsoft marketing> Windows Internet Explorer 8. The next Internet has arrived.
22:38:36 <kerlo> Did they actually say that?
22:38:52 <kerlo> Link or it didn't happen. :-P
22:42:12 <ais523> I saw it quoted somewhere
22:42:20 <ais523> I'm trying to find the original on Microsoft's website atm
22:43:46 <ais523> http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/internet-explorer/default.aspx# advertises that it's available for "all systems and languages", which can't be right
22:43:59 <Sgeo> Why does the result keep clearing?
22:44:00 <Sgeo> http://rafb.net/p/YqSa3M23.html
22:44:57 <Deewiant> ais523: Sure it is, it just defines a "system" as something that can run IE
22:46:46 <fizzieds> wfw311 runs ie, but i don't think ie8 is available for it either.
22:47:28 <Deewiant> Yes, I forgot to add an 8 at the end of my sentence and couldn't be bothered to correct
22:47:38 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
22:47:45 * Sgeo changes the type
22:48:20 <pikhq> Windows for Workgroups 3.11 with Win32s can run IE 5 or maybe even 6, I think...
22:48:39 <pikhq> Hell, a SunOS machine can run IE 5. ;)
22:48:44 <ais523> meh, can't find it, maybe someone was lying to me
22:49:14 <fizzieds> well, 4 or something was what i used
22:49:57 -!- fizzieds has quit ("back to a real computer").
22:51:38 <ais523> I managed to crash IE4 using a recursive website
22:51:49 <ais523> it was a website with frames, and each frame was the website itself
22:51:56 <coppro> yay... reimplementing basic operations in INTERCAL is FUN!
22:51:57 <oerjan> LYING TO AIS523? WHAT BASTARDS!
22:52:04 <ais523> it was pretty spectacular; it didn't just take down IE4, but the whole desktop environment too
22:52:06 <coppro> I think I have addition down...
22:52:20 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Recursion
22:52:21 <ais523> coppro: are you trying to do it without using the standard library?
22:52:39 <ais523> and are you trying it in pure INTERCAL-72, or with extensions?
22:52:46 <ais523> I managed to get addition down to one line using extensions
22:54:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:55:00 <ais523> one thread did the addition loop, the other monitored to see when the loop had finished
23:00:34 * kerlo adds recursion to his list of things that threads can be used for
23:01:10 <coppro> (1111) DO NOT WHATEVER YOU DO COME FROM .60110... hehehe
23:01:43 <ais523> coppro: deliberate obfuscation?
23:01:52 <ais523> also, .60110 is a pretty large variable name...
23:02:01 <coppro> yeah, I'm putting all my computed COME FROMS up high
23:02:06 <coppro> so they don't get interfered with
23:03:31 <coppro> unfortunately I can't obfuscate right there now :(
23:03:42 <oerjan> coppro: you might want to make the second DO part of a larger word, iirc
23:03:55 <coppro> yeah, that will work to
23:03:58 <coppro> but DOCOME isn't a word
23:04:27 <oerjan> DO TAKE CARE OF YOUR HAIRDO
23:05:09 <oerjan> DO NOT MAKE THAT WEIRDO
23:05:16 <ehird> coppro: why not use c-intercal? home bred by ais523! :P
23:05:18 <ehird> admittedly, less insane.
23:05:27 <ais523> ehird: compatibility between the two improves all the time
23:05:42 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL is generally ahead of the curve, because it doesn't worry about things like portability and efficiency
23:06:04 <ehird> 22:10 GregorR: OHHHHHH NO I SEE NOW
23:06:04 <ehird> 22:10 GregorR shoots self.
23:06:05 <coppro> does ABSTAINING FROM a label prevent COMING FROM it?
23:06:06 <ehird> 22:10 GregorR: I finally understand.
23:06:13 <ais523> you can COME FROM a comment, even
23:06:19 <coppro> (1111) DO NOT, WHATEVER YOU DO, COMMENT OUT THIS LINE
23:06:31 <ais523> coppro: DO, is a syntax error
23:06:44 <coppro> it doesn't get executed
23:06:54 <ais523> just wanted to make sure you knew
23:07:02 <coppro> since (1111) is the subject of a permanent COME FROM
23:07:33 <ais523> OK, this is ridiculous: apparently, the Dalai Lama was thinking of changing operating system, and he asked Slashdot for advice: http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/18/2030230&from=rss
23:07:44 <ais523> "apparently" here means "I'm not at all sure if this is true"
23:08:48 <ais523> anyway, be back soon, rebooting after distro upgrade
23:08:54 <Sgeo> 140,776,32804,1036,544,16390,3072,32780,82176,2564,66056,24832,33028,6272,4136,2088
23:08:56 <ehird> the dalai lama is pretty awesome.
23:08:59 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/rnd_tonematrix.htm
23:08:59 -!- ais523 has quit ("rebooting after distro upgrade").
23:10:54 <ehird> it is essentially less difficult to write exploits for Mac OS/Linux than it is for Windows, given the many anti-exploitation mechanisms
23:11:26 <ehird> from that /. article
23:11:27 <coppro> how is that a syntax error?
23:11:36 <ehird> coppro: because the DO starts a new statement
23:11:38 <ehird> whitespace is irrelevant
23:11:53 <coppro> PLEASE DO :1110 <- ":Β₯1110 Β’ '#0 ~ #65535'" ~ .1110
23:12:46 <kerlo> ehird: are there not many anti-exploitation mechanisms, or are the ones present ineffective?
23:13:05 <ehird> kerlo: The fact that you have to even ask is mouth-gawpingly ridiculous.
23:14:04 <kerlo> Are you going to answer the question, or just Joseph Smith me?
23:14:27 <ehird> kerlo: why is the sky blue?
23:14:42 <ehird> kerlo: I want all the details, to the subatomic level.
23:15:28 <ehird> "If *I* was in charge of the DL's computer, I wouldn't put on *only* Linux or *only* Windows or what have you. I think the DL needs a multiboot machine, and would really appreciate it if you tried to make him one with everything. "
23:15:28 <coppro> any answers to why my statement is a syntax error?
23:15:36 <ehird> coppro: ask ais when he returns
23:15:42 <kerlo> I asked you a this-or-that question, not an all-the-details question.
23:16:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:16:20 <ehird> kerlo: you should talk in horn clauses all the time
23:16:24 <ehird> ais523: "it is essentially less difficult to write exploits for Mac OS/Linux than it is for Windows, given the many anti-exploitation mechanisms Microsoft has embedded in the last years"
23:16:27 <ehird> β that /. article
23:16:34 <ehird> 23:15 ehird: "If *I* was in charge of the DL's computer, I wouldn't put on *only* Linux or *only* Windows or what have you. I think the DL needs a multiboot machine, and would really appreciate it if you tried to make him one with everything. "
23:16:40 <ehird> 23:11 coppro: PLEASE DO :1110 <- ":Β₯1110 Β’ '#0 ~ #65535'" ~ .1110
23:16:44 <ehird> he wants to know why it's a syntax error
23:16:59 <ais523> there's nothing obviously wrong
23:17:02 <ais523> is it encoded corectly?
23:17:19 <ais523> passing UTF-8 to CLC-INTERCAL confuses it, you have to encode the input as Latin-1
23:17:20 <kerlo> An analogous question is perhaps "Your truck is stopped directly below an overpass. Is it stuck, or did you run out of gas while delivering it?"
23:17:25 <ais523> or as EBCDIC, or Baudot, or Hollerith
23:17:32 <coppro> OH, crap. stupid editor
23:17:37 <coppro> reset the encoding... blargh
23:17:58 <ais523> just edit in EBCDIC, that's sufficiently different from everything sane that it'll be obvious when it goes wrong
23:20:46 <ehird> "The new malloc_info function therefore does not export a structure. Instead it exports the information in a self-describing data structure. Nowadays the preferred way to do this is via XML."
23:20:47 <oerjan> <ehird> kerlo: The fact that you have to even ask is mouth-gawpingly ridiculous. <<< I don't see what's stupid about asking whether windows really is more vulnerable than MacOS/Linux, if they were targeted the same amount
23:20:48 <ehird> β Ulrich Drepper
23:21:03 <ehird> oerjan: it's just patently false
23:21:09 <ehird> the quote from the article is untrue through and through
23:21:11 <oerjan> especially since dalai lama's offices may have been _specifically_ targeted by the chinese
23:21:59 <Sgeo> Perfect security: Don't go online
23:22:08 <ehird> you're so witty Sgeo.
23:26:03 <ehird> http://www.saveie6.com/
23:26:13 <ais523> why would anyone want to do that?
23:26:26 <ehird> ais523: because it's the first of april?
23:28:25 <Ilari> Wonder what anti-exploitation features they are talking about. Presumably not NX and ASLR, as those (especially the NX) have been supported for a while...
23:28:53 <ehird> Ilari: microsoft told them!
23:29:13 <ehird> the amiga 500 had a 7mhz cpu
23:29:32 <coppro> now my assignment to a two spot is causing problems :(
23:29:57 <Sgeo> I don't get http://www.saveie6.com/_img/img_chart_renderspeed.jpg
23:30:21 <ehird> Sgeo: how fast it animates GIFs
23:30:29 <ehird> yes, browsers actually differ on that
23:32:37 <kerlo> oerjan: maybe you can answer my question, then.
23:32:46 <ais523> Ilari: not all Linux systems have NX and ASLR on by default
23:33:19 <pikhq> ais523: Linux turns NX on if it's supported by the CPU.
23:33:36 <oerjan> kerlo: erm, no, i'm wondering myself
23:33:38 <ehird> NX is a ... what that you can't execute?
23:33:59 <Ilari> NX on Linux disables code execution on all pages that don't have PROT_EXEC.
23:33:59 <pikhq> NX is a flag on the page stating that it can't be executed from.
23:34:30 <pikhq> Only in existence on recent x86 processors.
23:34:40 <pikhq> (namely, everything that does x86_64.)
23:35:14 <Ilari> I have heard that there are some X86-64 CPUs that can't do NX. All X86-64s from AMD support it, but some from Intel don't.
23:35:38 <pikhq> Ilari: Their very first ones don't. Said processors were sold for all of a month.
23:36:00 <pikhq> They also, IIRC, had a very poor implementation of x86_64.
23:36:36 * ais523 reports another bug to Ubuntu in the hope that they'll do something about it
23:36:52 <Ilari> X86-64 doesn't support execute without read, right (some other CPU archs do support that)?
23:36:57 <ehird> ais523: just report it to debian
23:37:00 <ehird> they actually fix stuff
23:37:02 <ais523> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/363532
23:37:19 <ais523> ehird: I know, but I don't know what package it's in or if it's Ubuntu-specific, it well might be for this one
23:37:28 <ais523> I always report straight to Debian if I know the bug's there too
23:37:35 <ehird> well, even ubuntu-specific bugs tend to be reproducible on debian, no?
23:37:47 <ais523> only if you have a Debian system with Ubuntu repos to test them on
23:37:53 <ehird> Ubuntu and Debian should probably merge or something.
23:38:03 <coppro> And Debian devs won't take responsibility for non-Debian bugs
23:38:28 <ais523> well, yes, entirely correctly
23:38:35 <ais523> more to the point the bug might be in an Ubuntu-specific patch
23:38:50 <ehird> I'd expect a shutdown to cause no system beeps (and possibly a customizable shutdown sound).
23:38:52 <coppro> The graphical environment and startup/shutdown procedures, etc. are mostly Ubuntu
23:38:57 <ehird> detailed bug reports are amusing
23:39:13 <ais523> I've learnt through experience that you should always explain expected behaviour
23:39:19 <ehird> coppro: I don't think there are many actually Ubuntu-specific programs
23:39:25 <ais523> just in case the developers fixing it get completely the wrong end of the stick
23:39:29 <ehird> as in, made just for inclusion in it
23:39:30 <coppro> not Ubuntu-specific, no
23:40:24 * Sgeo goes to play isketch
23:40:40 <coppro> yay addition is working
23:41:07 <ehird> This indicates that the image is probably composed of several images taken at different times (probably in a top secret studio guarded by specially trained aliens working as government agents)
23:41:09 <ehird> β http://www.stuffucanuse.com/fake_moon_landings/moon_landings.htm
23:41:14 <ais523> coppro: what algorithm did you use?
23:41:25 <pikhq> coppro: Those were changed a bit and sent upstream. That stuff is in Debian stable these days. ;)
23:41:32 <coppro> ais523: XOR and AND, looping till the AND gives 0
23:41:44 <ais523> yep, that's the usual way I think
23:41:57 <coppro> my loop condition involves .VVVVVVVVvVVVVVV1110
23:47:31 <ais523> those should all be capital, presumably?
23:47:43 <ais523> I've done the multiple-unary trick before, although it isn't portable
23:48:03 <ais523> I think the standard method, of self-selection, though, is probably both more efficient and almost as clear
23:48:08 <ehird> ais523: you asked about nibbles?
23:48:14 <ehird> well, it's not available for my os :P
23:48:22 <ehird> I have ubuntu in a vm.
23:48:42 <ehird> wait, doesn't your internet connection thing ban that?
23:48:43 <ais523> also, the AI I submitted to Gnome for Nibbles is now the official one
23:48:47 <ais523> ehird: different connection
23:48:48 <coppro> ais523: What do you mean it isn't portable?
23:48:49 <ehird> As a warning, I'm terrible.
23:48:50 <ais523> that's why I wanted to do it now
23:48:58 <ais523> coppro: J-INTERCAL doesn't like it
23:49:05 <ais523> and in C-INTERCAL, you have to phrase it differently
23:49:10 <ais523> as "VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV.V1110"
23:49:18 <ais523> that works in CLC-INTERCAL too, btw
23:49:23 <coppro> yeah, but it's deprecated
23:49:26 <ais523> note that the quotes are required
23:50:13 <ais523> ehird: do you have a NAT at your end/
23:50:19 <ais523> I do over here, so you'd better host the game
23:50:24 <ehird> ais523: My ports are all blocked up, but I can open them manually.
23:50:36 <ais523> 5688 is the port for gnome-games, I think
23:50:44 <ais523> coppro: killer app for Linux
23:50:47 <ais523> it's multiplayer Snake
23:50:57 <ehird> ais523: what ports?
23:51:06 <ehird> ais523: udp or tcp
23:51:16 <ais523> I don't know offhand, shall I look it up?
23:51:34 <ais523> that's unlikely, my guess for a game like that is pure TCP
23:52:22 <ais523> what IP should I connect to? 208.78.103.223?
23:52:30 <ehird> I'm going to start the host.
23:52:32 <ehird> As soon as I figure out how.
23:53:02 <ehird> ais523: Uh, I can't find anything about running a server.
23:53:19 <ais523> ah, it's in a different package
23:53:27 <ais523> we can connect via the official server instead if you prefer
23:53:43 <ehird> This way's funner.
23:53:56 <ehird> I'll have it up in a min.
23:54:39 <ehird> ais523: try connecting
23:54:46 <ehird> wow, that was painless
23:55:08 <ais523> I get "Connection refused"
23:55:27 <ehird> I'm connected via my bouncer, fools!
23:55:35 <ehird> Try 91.105.116.151.
23:55:49 <ais523> still connection refused
23:56:04 <coppro> I should be on guest connection?
23:56:50 <ais523> still connection refused
23:56:55 <ais523> but it waited about a second beforehand
23:57:26 <ais523> nope, still connection refused
23:57:30 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
23:57:34 <ehird> I can figs this out.
23:57:51 <ais523> $ nc 91.105.116.151 5688
23:57:53 <ais523> (UNKNOWN) [91.105.116.151] 5688 (ggz) : Connection refused
23:58:03 <ais523> decided to try that way too, just in case it was a problem with Nibbles
23:58:06 <ehird> I must have to tweak the config.
23:58:07 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:58:24 <ehird> Here's the config files.
23:59:15 <ehird> Try now, coppro & ais523.
23:59:28 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:59:28 <ais523> still connection refused
23:59:35 <ais523> on nc and from Niibles
23:59:38 <ehird> Okay, wait, lemme think.
23:59:43 <ehird> Clearly, it's denying you guys access, right?
23:59:57 <ais523> OTOH, I can netcat to, say, port 22
23:59:57 <ehird> So, it's a problem with ggzd.
00:00:02 <ehird> So I have to change its config.
00:00:04 <ehird> ais523: that's os x
00:00:18 <ais523> the problem seems to be that nothing's listening at your end on 5688
00:00:27 <ais523> as a test, you might want to set up a quick netcat listener
00:00:32 <ehird> ais523: of course it is
00:00:36 <ehird> I connected via nibbles
00:00:37 <ehird> (UNKNOWN) [91.105.116.151] 5688 (ggz) : Connection refused
00:00:40 <ehird> that's an error from ggz
00:00:47 <ehird> otherwise, how does it know it's ggz?
00:00:52 <ehird> I doubt it's in a DB somewhere
00:00:59 <ais523> there's a massive DB of what port's what in Ubuntu
00:01:21 <ehird> ais523: try it on another thing
00:01:24 <ehird> try it on google.com
00:01:39 <ehird> and see if you get the same error
00:01:53 <ais523> localhost [127.0.0.1] 6667 (ircd) : Connection refused
00:02:01 <ehird> Lemme try from os x
00:02:09 <ehird> [ehird:~] % nc localhost 5688
00:02:21 <ehird> [ehird:~] % telnet localhost 5688
00:02:22 <ehird> telnet: connect to address ::1: Connection refused
00:02:26 <ehird> telnet: connect to address fe80::1: Connection refused
00:02:28 <ehird> Trying 127.0.0.1...
00:02:30 <ehird> telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused
00:02:32 <ehird> telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
00:02:39 <ehird> Either Ubuntu's firewalling it,
00:02:48 <ehird> ais523: how can I tell iptables to let that through?
00:03:08 <ais523> there's an iptables command-line frontend, it's great
00:03:25 <ais523> still connection refused
00:03:32 <ais523> did you run the ufw command?
00:03:40 <ais523> "sudo ufw status" will tell you the firewall config
00:04:07 * ehird changes config, restarts VM.
00:04:09 <ehird> Hopefully, this will just work.
00:04:14 <ehird> If not, let's use the official server.
00:04:25 <ais523> what version is the VM running, by the way?
00:04:41 <ais523> coppro: incidentally, I wrote the AI for the latest version of Nibbles, which is in Jaunty and also Intrepid, I think
00:04:57 <ehird> ais523: I hate that AI.
00:05:16 <ais523> well, it's much the same as before, except that it doesn't randomly suicide like the old one used to
00:06:17 <ehird> ais523: No success?
00:06:59 <ais523> $ nc 91.106.116.151 5688
00:07:04 <ehird> ais523: you can start the actual game
00:07:11 <ais523> which IP do I aim for?
00:08:58 -!- iano has joined.
00:09:51 <iano> What is the largest program ever written in an esoteric language?
00:09:59 <ehird> iano: there are many autogenerated ones
00:10:04 <ehird> me and ais are there
00:10:07 <ais523> coppro: ehird and I went over to the official server
00:10:12 <iano> I mean by hand
00:11:42 <ehird> I had to change the networking stack thing
00:12:06 <ehird> it freezes on connect!
00:12:10 <ehird> ais523: coppro: :|
00:12:34 <ehird> Error connecing to server: No such file or directory
00:12:36 <coppro> that's nearly unplayable
00:12:44 <ais523> I've just killed the game
00:12:55 <ais523> and yes, it's running rather slowly...
00:12:57 <ehird> coppro: what's your IP?
00:13:03 <coppro> the one I posted above
00:13:07 <ehird> should I run it on rutian?
00:13:18 <ais523> server Ubuntu == desktop Ubuntu
00:13:21 <ais523> coppro: ehird's server
00:13:32 <ehird> coppro: my server, dead atm but ais523 had root on it a while ago
00:14:24 -!- iano has quit.
00:15:02 <ehird> yay, almost got it working
00:15:27 <ehird> /etc/ggzd/games contains no nibblse
00:15:31 <ehird> I must have to install nibbles-server or sth
00:15:44 <ehird> gnome-games-servers
00:15:51 <ehird> this should be nice and fast
00:15:55 <ehird> HOLY SHIT THAT"S A LOT OF PACKAGES
00:16:00 <ehird> it's gonna install X11
00:17:12 <ehird> Just one lil' bit of config should do it.
00:17:27 <ais523> so, what's the Xorg.conf on rutian like?
00:17:34 <ais523> I don't even know what you put there for a server
00:17:46 <ehird> ssh can forward it
00:17:51 <ehird> so, only non-device-related stuff
00:18:36 <ais523> what's rutian's IP, again?
00:19:22 <ehird> and will probably be slower than the ggz thing
00:19:29 <ehird> i'll avoid heavy ircing ;)
00:20:52 -!- ehird has set topic: This is rutian, who cares? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
00:21:28 <ais523> shall we try 2-player until coppro notices, to test the connection?
00:21:41 <ehird> vm lag + network lag + rutian lag
00:22:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:23:26 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:23:55 -!- coppro has joined.
00:24:08 <ehird> # Any additional game arguments specific to this room
00:24:15 <ehird> what's the arg to pass to gnibbles? :P
00:24:26 <ais523> I didn't even know it took settings on the command line
00:24:51 <ais523> This program only accepts the standard GNOME and GTK options.
00:24:55 <ehird> ais523: I figured it out
00:25:20 <ehird> PlayersAllowed = 2..6
00:25:22 <ehird> AllowSpectators = 0
00:25:24 <ehird> seems relevant, I guess.
00:25:30 <ehird> ExecutablePath = /usr/lib/ggz/gnibblesd
00:25:32 <ehird> # Set ExecutableArgs in the room file
00:25:37 <ais523> there's no AllowChangePreferences, or whatever
00:26:36 <ehird> "GGZ Community database access is not possible."
00:26:46 <ehird> http://www.ggzgamingzone.org/
00:27:29 <ehird> Server administrators can find instructions and recommendations here.
00:27:30 <ehird> Server Hosting Guide: HTML, PostScript, text
00:27:32 <ehird> Grubby Chatbot Admin Manual: HTML
00:27:33 -!- schlangen1 has quit ("Leaving.").
00:27:34 <ehird> Package Dependency Graph: PostScript, PNG
00:27:36 <ehird> Database design: HTML
00:27:38 <ehird> server hosting guide!
00:28:08 <ehird> http://www.ggzgamingzone.org/gameservers/gnibbles/
00:28:42 <ehird> ais523: just play at regular speed?
00:29:12 <ais523> incidentally, GGZ's doc referred me to Gnome's
00:29:17 <ais523> which referred me to a redlinked page on a wiki
00:29:33 <ais523> on which server? rutian?
00:31:22 <ehird> just wanted to set a description
00:35:59 <ais523> it's no good, I didn't even figure out which worm I was before the game ended
00:36:32 <ehird> ais523: what? it didn't end
00:36:37 <ehird> I was still playing....
00:36:44 <ais523> obviously must have desynced due to lag
00:36:55 <ehird> eh, worth another try
00:37:55 <Ilari> Aww... No nibbles here...
00:38:16 <ais523> it's no good, there are cherries inside walls, about three target doughnuts, and I keep crashing into nonexistent objects
00:38:39 <ehird> There are no walls.
00:38:41 <ehird> Just the outer ones.
00:38:49 <ehird> ais523: Methinks we need to be on the same level settings!
00:39:03 <ehird> ... it stands to reason: if we both pick the same speed, magic!
00:39:27 <ehird> ais523: Speed: finger-twitching good. Don't enable fake bonuses, don't play levels in random order.
00:39:37 <ais523> http://imgur.com/Ak.png
00:39:44 <ais523> ehird: the setting it was playing on /aren't my settings/
00:39:56 <ehird> Well, if you set it to that, maybe it'll work.
00:39:59 <ehird> Just one more try like that?
00:40:31 <ehird> ais523: also, you host
00:40:34 <ehird> then I'll be the one with the glitches :P
00:42:23 <ehird> and I keep bashing into fake things
00:42:27 <ehird> and jumping around
00:43:01 <ehird> ais523: I'm bashing into you
00:43:21 <ais523> you're purple, and I just won
00:43:31 <ehird> ais523: There's only red and green.
00:43:33 <ais523> <Gnibbles> Game over! The game has been won by ais524!Game over! The game has been won by ais524!Game over! The game has been won by ais524!Game over! The game has been won by ais524!
00:43:38 <ehird> I got no such message.
00:43:41 <ais523> I customized the colours for player 2
00:43:47 <ais523> because they keep confusing me with the walls
00:44:01 <ehird> So, um why does this suck so much
00:44:06 <ais523> hey, settings | preferences work now
00:44:11 <ais523> and my guess is because nobody ever tested it
00:44:15 <ehird> ais523: set it to full speed and level 1
00:44:19 <ehird> and no fake things
00:44:30 <ais523> it's set like that already
00:44:48 <ehird> LEt's try the official serve.r
00:46:12 <ehird> ais523: are there walls for you?
00:46:14 <ehird> I just have the border
00:46:25 <ais523> i get standard level 1
00:46:52 <ehird> are you really short?
00:47:09 <ehird> it's flooding me with I-won messages
00:47:13 <ehird> and glitches on the screen
00:47:16 <ais523> I just won, according to my Nibbles
00:47:24 <ehird> ais523: how about we just VNC?
00:47:27 <ais523> ok, I am so going to have to fix Nibbles some day
00:47:27 <ehird> that'd be more reliable...
00:47:33 <ais523> and how would that work?
00:47:41 <ehird> ais523: you log in to my session and use player 2 keys
00:47:49 <ais523> which program do I use?
00:47:55 <ehird> well, I need to find a server first!
00:48:16 <ehird> ais523: remote dekstop viewer
00:48:33 <ais523> yep, I was wondering about that one
00:49:12 <ais523> system | preferences | remote desktop
00:50:21 <ais523> "configure network automatically to accept connections" is probably Gnomese for opening the port
00:50:46 <ehird> ais523: I don't trust those things
00:51:32 <ehird> ais523: try 91.105.116.151
00:52:05 <ais523> I just get a big black screen
00:52:19 <ais523> with no sign of being able to do anything with it
00:52:43 <ais523> $ nc 91.105.116.151 5900
00:52:45 <ais523> (UNKNOWN) [91.105.116.151] 5900 (?) : Connection refused
00:53:40 <ehird> I wonder what gconf thing it is
00:55:01 <ais523> hahaha, I just connected to myself, it's pretty
00:55:30 <ais523> still a black screen, nc doesn't work
00:57:21 <ehird> vncTCP59005900192.168.1.159
00:57:50 <ehird> ais523: here, can you configure your NAT?
00:57:58 <ehird> maybe I should connect to you
00:58:07 <ais523> ehird: I have no control over the router here
00:58:19 <ehird> ais523: ssh tunnel?
00:59:05 <ais523> I'd need an account on a server somewhere
00:59:33 <ehird> % telnet 127.0.0.1 5900
00:59:33 <ehird> Trying 127.0.0.1...
00:59:35 <ehird> telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused
00:59:37 <ehird> telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
00:59:39 <ehird> It's the fuckin' VM!
00:59:46 <ehird> ais523: firewall incantation plz
00:59:57 <ehird> figured it out before you said it
00:59:58 <ais523> you can be more detailed than that if you like
01:00:14 <ais523> not refused, now hanging
01:00:20 <ais523> maybe it's waiting for you to confirm?
01:00:27 <ehird> ais523: Nope. I'll enable that and try
01:00:44 <ehird> ais523: disconnect/reconnect
01:00:56 <ais523> getting connection refused again
01:01:19 <ehird> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:01:29 <ais523> check the syslog for firewall messages/
01:03:03 <ehird> ais523: any ideas?
01:03:49 <ehird> ais523: locally connecting works
01:03:50 <ais523> ehird: put up netcat listeners on 5900 on both your main computer and VM
01:03:55 <ais523> let me netcat to them and see what happens
01:03:58 <Ilari> Sniff the connection and see if the SYN gets through? If it does, its local firewall problem.
01:04:32 <ehird> % telnet localhost 5900
01:04:34 <ehird> telnet: connect to address ::1: Connection refused
01:04:36 <ais523> if you like, and give me permission, I'll portscan you to see what happens
01:04:38 <ehird> telnet: connect to address fe80::1: Connection refused
01:04:40 <ehird> Trying 127.0.0.1...
01:04:42 <ehird> telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused
01:04:44 <ehird> telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
01:04:46 <ehird> Okay, it's the fuckin' VM.
01:04:52 <ehird> anyone can portscan me, it's a free internet :P
01:05:03 <ais523> yep, but I don't like portscanning people uninvited
01:05:10 <ais523> and raise eyebrows when someone portscans me
01:05:22 <ais523> mostly the University, I get portscanned whenever I connect to wireless or access my email
01:05:54 <ehird> ais523: i'm the kind of person who runs a wireless network with zero security enabled on purpose :-)
01:06:19 <ehird> ais523: try connecting now.
01:06:34 <ehird> ais523: what did we do when I did nibbles?
01:07:00 -!- MizardX- has joined.
01:07:14 -!- MizardX has quit (Connection timed out).
01:07:22 <ehird> maybe os x is firewallin' it
01:07:34 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
01:09:14 * ehird fullscreens Ubuntu
01:09:19 <ais523> nc works, providing the right response
01:09:25 <ehird> ais523: try with vnc
01:09:25 <ais523> I'm trying to connect now
01:09:36 <ais523> do you have a confirm prompt up?
01:09:42 <ehird> No, it's OS X not Ubuntu
01:09:55 <ais523> oh, should I install vnc then?
01:10:00 <ehird> ais523: do you have a password option?
01:10:16 <ehird> I think you may have to input my pass
01:10:20 <ehird> which I can change temporarily to let you in
01:10:29 <ais523> no password option on the main connect
01:10:36 <ais523> I sort-of got the impression that the Ubuntu method asks later
01:10:44 <ais523> I'll install vnc if you like
01:10:46 <ehird> ais523: anything in the edit connection things?
01:11:07 <ais523> no, there isn't an edit connection thing
01:11:17 <ehird> install a full vnc client, I guess
01:11:23 <ais523> just a connect button which asks for the IP, and what sort of connection (connect full-screen, do you want to control the remote desktop)
01:11:36 <ehird> select no to control
01:11:53 <ais523> then I couldn't play, just watch
01:11:58 <ehird> I know, but it's a start
01:12:10 <ais523> I just get a black screen
01:12:19 <ehird> install a full vnc client
01:14:09 <ais523> it's asking for a username/password
01:14:20 <ais523> wait, no, just password
01:14:52 <ais523> (if me's online, he'll be wondering why I just said "a password" to him...)
01:15:37 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
01:15:45 <ehird> ais523: if it doesn't work & you can edit the connection details, set username = ehird
01:16:05 <ais523> ok, I clicked "connect" and nothign obviously happened
01:16:18 <coppro> okay... this is starting to annoy me
01:16:30 <coppro> DO .1120 <- "&'"Β₯'":1120 ~ '#0 Β’ #65535'" Β’ #0' ~ '#0 Β’ #65535'" Β’ ":1120 ~ '#65535 Β’ 0'"'" ~ "#0 Β’ #65535" is apparently a parse error :/
01:16:41 <ehird> ais523: any luck setting the username?
01:16:54 * ehird changes password back
01:16:56 <ais523> the entire program's disappeared into a notification area icon
01:17:19 <ais523> yes, and not what I expected at all
01:17:25 <ais523> I was expecting it would, you know, show me your desktop
01:17:41 <ais523> the session was "opened"
01:17:48 <ais523> deiconizing it just gave me the main connections list
01:17:56 <ehird> right click the icon?
01:18:02 <ais523> gave me a list of connections
01:18:04 <ehird> boy, I want to hit someone with a usability stick...
01:18:07 <ehird> ais523: choose mine?
01:18:19 <ehird> ... >_< try another client
01:18:33 <ais523> seems like a good option
01:18:54 <ehird> this is ridiculous.
01:19:04 <ehird> ais523: let's play gnibbles over irc
01:19:08 * ais523 finds another VNC client
01:19:12 <ais523> ehird: if only that worked!
01:19:32 <coppro> ais523: can you see if that works on C-INTERCAL?
01:19:34 <ehird> ais523: left nop nop nop up nop nop nop nop nop nop right
01:19:53 <ais523> coppro: OK, I'll test it
01:21:34 * ehird puts password back to anbutt
01:21:39 <ais523> ehird: trying now, I was just dealing with coppro's problem
01:21:50 <coppro> ais523: Okay, it's not just CLC-... now to figure out why
01:21:57 <coppro> I've rebuilt that statement twice :/
01:22:38 <ais523> ehird: I get an error, "You have been disconnected"
01:22:53 <ehird> ais523: username=ehird?
01:23:02 <ehird> did you select Control? Don't :-P
01:23:12 <ais523> and there wasn't a Control setting on this one
01:23:15 <ehird> with the new password I gave?
01:24:05 <ais523> coppro: there's a literal 0 in there
01:24:09 <ais523> you meant #0, almost certainly
01:24:31 <ehird> what client you using ais523
01:24:32 <ais523> ehird: oops, I typoed the port
01:24:51 <ais523> now it's just doing a loading animation
01:25:15 <ais523> I'd expect it to have loaded by now, though...
01:25:19 <coppro> ah, yay, the statement evaluates
01:25:24 <coppro> wrong result though :(
01:25:24 <ehird> ais523: what client?
01:25:32 <ais523> gtkvncviewer, the third I've tried
01:25:53 <ehird> Iwill try it myself
01:26:04 <ais523> "Expression is (((((? (((:1120 & 0x55555555) << 0x1) ~ 0x55555555)) $ 0x0) & (:1120 & 0xaaaaaaaa)) >> 0x1) ~ 0x55555555)"
01:26:23 <ais523> coppro: that looks very wrong to me
01:26:40 <ais523> that left-hand select appears to be selecting all 0s
01:27:02 <ais523> still doing loading animation...
01:27:45 <ais523> ok, it just said "You have been disconnected"
01:27:54 <ehird> lemme try an os x client
01:29:41 <ais523> coppro: actually, that might be a bug in C-INTERCAL; it should have noticed that that whole part of the expression cancels out
01:29:53 * ais523 suddenly realises that it probably did notice, but didn't do anything about it
01:38:29 -!- jix_ has joined.
01:41:07 <coppro> ais523: What do those symbols translate to?
01:41:25 <ais523> the others are the same
01:41:40 <ais523> although that's a mix of INTERCAL and C
01:42:19 <ais523> I don't think you're doing anything that wouldn't work in C-INTERCAL's CLC-INTERCAL compatibility mode
01:42:32 <ais523> although I didn't even have to set compat mode for that, I just encoded it as Latin-1 and C-INTERCAL did the right thing
01:42:37 <coppro> :1120 is an interleaving of two one spots (call em .1 and .2); I'm trying to get (C code) .1 & ~.2
01:43:22 <ais523> the standard way would be to just translate the & and the ~ separately
01:43:25 <ais523> what are you trying to do?
01:43:59 <coppro> select .2 out of :1120, interleave with 0, perform unary XOR to negate it, select the result out, interleave with .1 (which needs to be selected out) and unary AND it
01:44:14 <coppro> then select the result
01:44:17 <ais523> unary XOR after interleaving with 0 doesn't negate something
01:44:22 <ais523> you probably want to interleave with 65535 instead
01:45:42 * ais523 notes that people who primarily use CLC-INTERCAL tend to say "interleave", whereas C-INTERCAL users are more fond of "mingle"
01:46:08 <coppro> oh boy, that doesn't work
01:46:18 <ais523> run it through the expression-explainer?
01:46:28 <coppro> I know what the problem is, thankfully
01:46:48 <coppro> or I know what it should be
01:47:00 <coppro> I'm interleaving something with > 16 bits
01:47:21 <ais523> both are correct, it's just interesting to see which people use
01:47:41 <coppro> I'd use the expression-explainer if I was any good at interpreting it
01:47:50 <coppro> and I don't have C-INTERCAL
01:48:12 <ais523> that surprises me, it's rare to see someone with CLC but not C
01:48:41 <coppro> I haven't found the Ubuntu packaging for C, and I'm lazy
01:48:47 <ais523> sudo apt-get install intercal
01:48:58 <ais523> it's a couple of versions old, IIRC
01:49:19 <ais523> that's the latest stable version
01:49:31 <coppro> ah, it's just intercal
01:49:37 <coppro> I kept looking for c-intercal
01:50:00 <coppro> oh, now I find out I had it all along :/
01:50:12 <ais523> the trick is to type the filename, and let command-not-found sort it out
01:50:55 <ais523> The program 'ick' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
01:50:56 <ais523> sudo apt-get install intercal
01:50:58 <ais523> bash: ick: command not found
01:51:31 * ais523 would be so amused if someday there's a Debian alternatives entry for intercal
01:51:32 <coppro> how is this an error? '":1120 ~ '#0 Β’ #65535'" Β’ #65535'
01:52:06 <ais523> a visual inspection shows nothign wrong
01:52:34 <ais523> and nothing wrong comes up under syntax highlighting
01:52:43 <ais523> is that the whole expression? is the statement it's in fine?
01:53:09 <coppro> yeah, I pulled that out of the other expression
01:53:25 <coppro> one of the interleaves is producing >32 bits, but I don't think that's possible
01:53:47 <ais523> nope, you're only selecting 16 bits in the select
01:53:58 <ais523> so I don't see how the output could be too large
01:54:28 <ais523> I was thinking of the mingle bit-width hack that C-INTERCAL uses, but the expression looks right both ways
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01:58:25 <coppro> how do I run that expression analyzer?
01:58:45 <ais523> either ick -Og and look at the output C code, or ick -Oy to run it interactively
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02:06:21 <coppro> Where are the debugger docs?
02:08:26 -!- neldoreth has quit (No route to host).
02:08:29 <coppro> specifically, how do I get it to explain?
02:08:41 <ais523> the docs are behind the ? key
02:08:43 <ais523> but e and a line number
02:08:46 <ais523> will give you an explanation
02:12:51 <coppro> oh right now I remember!
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02:14:54 <coppro> confused coppro is confused
02:15:08 <ais523> what's the problem? with the debugger, or your code?
02:15:19 <coppro> I tried the expression on C-INTERCAL
02:15:30 <coppro> and it too is giving me an overflow error
02:15:39 <ais523> can you paste the expression, again?
02:16:09 <coppro> oh, I'm just extremely retarded
02:16:27 <ais523> you assigned the result to a 16-bit variable by mistake?
02:16:28 <coppro> I thought it was an interleave error; I was assigning a 32-bit value to a one psot
02:18:08 <coppro> this is almost as bad as GCC's C++ error messages
02:18:49 <ais523> yes, INTERCAL error messages tend not to be particularly helpful
02:19:15 <coppro> does C-INTERCAL accept the yen?
02:19:24 <ais523> yes, if it's encoded in Latin-1
02:19:34 <ais523> it assumes CLC-INTERCAL source if it sees it in Latin-1
02:19:37 <coppro> CLC is accepting my code now, but C isn't
02:19:47 <ais523> if you encode it in UTF-8, it interprets it as mingle because it's a currency symbol
02:31:53 <ais523> well, you don't need to tell all us about it!
02:32:11 <FireFly> According to the rules, I have to :)
02:32:20 <FireFly> This is my current surrounding
02:33:17 * oerjan never loses the game because he forcefully keeps his brain too dense to understand it
02:35:27 * coppro is surprised he made an easy-to-correct error in INTERCAL
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02:39:20 <coppro> Yay! Addition's working!
02:40:49 <coppro> Jaunty finally got the wireless light on my computer working!
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03:37:05 <ais523> quick #esoteric poll: if you don't want to use / to delimit a regex for some reason (e.g. if it contains lots of slashes), what character do you most often use instead?
03:39:14 <ais523> wow: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/54c90bb925b9d331#
03:39:27 <ais523> it's like a Yahoo Answers question, only programming-related and on Usenet
03:40:58 <ais523> I seriously /hope/ that c.l.c post was a troll, but fear it wasn't
03:41:26 <coppro> sounds like a good SO question
03:41:38 <ais523> is stackoverflow that bad yet?
03:42:32 <ais523> stackoverflow's weird, if you ask a popular question they interpret it as gaming the system and you get no reputation
03:43:26 <coppro> my most voted question is "Are there any good reasons why I should not use Python?" (originally "Why does Python suck?")
03:43:52 <ais523> and there are, of course, situations in which using Python is unwise
03:43:58 <ais523> but the same goes for any language
03:44:03 <Sgeo_> ais523, when is Python unwise?
03:44:05 <ais523> pikhq: seriously? What programming langauge do you use?
03:44:10 <ais523> Sgeo_: real-time device drivers, for one
03:44:47 <ais523> probably referring to the NUL byte
03:45:00 <ais523> which is used for end-of-string in C, and so it's inexpressible to many programs
03:45:18 <pikhq> It's a perfectly cromulent character in Tcl, though.
03:45:28 <ais523> it's the only character, apart from /, which isn't allowed in filenames on UNIX
03:45:33 <ais523> pikhq: yep, it's legal in Befunge too
03:46:05 <coppro> Esoteric languages tend to have less of an issue with NUL
03:46:12 <coppro> because they have no string handling to speak of
03:46:17 <ais523> however, esoteric language interps are written in real-world langs
03:46:22 <ais523> and so often inherit NUL problems
03:46:27 <ais523> Mycology tests for NUL handling for that reason
03:46:28 <pikhq> Of course, Tcl doesn't really use characters to delimit regex's; a regexp is just a string which happens to be passed as an argument to the [regex] function.
03:46:29 <coppro> if there is string handling
03:46:43 <ais523> Sgeo_: Befunge-98 conformance testsuite
03:46:44 <Sgeo_> PSOX makes extensive use of NULs
03:46:54 <ais523> half the conversations in this channel are about it, I'm surprised you missed them
03:46:56 * Sgeo_ waits to be assassinated
03:47:07 <ais523> it's one of the only large commercial-feeling esolang applicationos
03:47:24 <ais523> but tbh, the only reason it's written in Befunge-98 is because it's an obvious language to write a Befunge-98 testsuite in
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04:15:16 <GregorR> Ah, ChatZilla, that explains why reinstalling flash required that you /quit :P
04:18:23 <pikhq> No, it doesn't. Firefox uses new plugins without restarting.
04:37:38 <ais523> I know my Firefox wants me to restart whenever I upgrade a plugin
04:38:06 <pikhq> Presumably, that'd be an add-on, not a plugin.
04:38:24 <pikhq> Otherwise, I hate your distro's packaging of Firefox.
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09:17:03 <Gracenotes> hm. looks like the lolcode project is slowing down a bit.. http://forum.lolcode.com/index.php
09:17:05 <Deewiant> Mycology is commercial-feeling? News to me :-P
09:18:40 <Gracenotes> well then... that was only within a second of each other after hours of channel inactivity...
09:20:18 * Sgeo is bored on Freenet
09:20:43 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Mycology is commercial-feeling? News to me :-P <-- huh? who claimed that?
09:21:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's only around 20 lines up the lastlog
09:21:20 <Deewiant> I forgot who it was so you can look it up yourself
09:21:45 <AnMaster> lastlog... as in /lastlog mycology ?
09:22:08 <Deewiant> It's probably the next-to-last line in /lastlog mycology :-P
09:22:22 <AnMaster> plain lastlog gives syntax error in this client
09:22:42 <AnMaster> <ais523> Mycology tests for NUL handling for that reason
09:22:43 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Mycology is commercial-feeling? News to me :-P
09:23:15 <Deewiant> (And you reminded me that it was ais)
09:25:34 <AnMaster> <ais523> but tbh, the only reason it's written in Befunge-98 is because it's an obvious language to write a Befunge-98 testsuite in
09:37:17 <Sgeo> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1138219&cid=26966727 absolutely crushed my fantasy about Freenet
09:38:35 <AnMaster> anyone here have any experience with jack-audio-connection-kit?
09:38:56 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, not here, but I suspect it might be in for example China
09:41:02 <bsmntbombdood> the developers focused on completely the wrong problem
09:42:00 <Sgeo> What is the right problem?
09:47:45 <Sgeo> I keep reading that Frost is dead
09:49:58 <Sgeo> There was a release on 3/13
09:50:01 <Sgeo> http://jtcfrost.sourceforge.net/
09:50:04 <Sgeo> Why would they do this?
09:51:07 <bsmntbombdood> low bandwidth, high latency ought to be easy to do
09:51:41 <Sgeo> Does FMS count?
09:51:43 <bsmntbombdood> to the point where you can start making guarantees
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09:55:16 <Sgeo> How would true anonymity be done?
10:02:46 <Ilari> Yeah. One could get true anonymity (at hideous computational expense) by using protocol to solve dining cryptographers problem...
10:06:02 <Sgeo> Is there a way to do that without requiring each participant to participate every round?
10:07:02 <Ilari> Well, only participants can send and receive...
10:07:31 <Ilari> Or maybe others could also receive, but definitely not send.
10:09:47 <Sgeo> How do I tell what Firefox profile is running?
10:10:03 <Sgeo> I'm not convinced that this "Browse Freenet!" icon is doing anything
10:10:22 <Ilari> Sgeo: See which profile has lock file?
10:10:44 <Ilari> Sgeo: Or maybe peek at what files firefox has open?
10:11:35 * Sgeo looks at bookmarks
10:11:51 <Sgeo> I.. think this thing found where my missing bookmarks from a long time ago went...
10:12:15 <Sgeo> That's the only way I can account for there being so few bookmarks
10:13:36 <Sgeo> ...Unless most of my bookmarks spontaneously DIED
10:14:54 <Sgeo> The Bookmarks menu only shows some of the bookmarks
10:45:11 <Sgeo> http://16systems.com/zero.php hm, social flaw with the experiment: Who'd reveal that they can break that sort of thing?
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13:32:31 <oerjan> <ais523> quick #esoteric poll: if you don't want to use / to delimit a regex for some reason (e.g. if it contains lots of slashes), what character do you most often use instead?
13:32:58 <oerjan> it's been a while, but | i think, or maybe !
13:36:24 <Deewiant> Sometimes I use \ just to be funny
13:37:27 <oerjan> my slashes interpreter uses !
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14:10:10 <fizzie> I use # for some reason.
14:10:49 <fizzie> And occasionally something like s{...}{...} in Perl.
14:11:45 <oklopol> what's the context for the question?
14:11:48 <fizzie> Though that pretty much only with the x modifier and multi-line expressions.
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14:13:37 <oklopol> i mean in what situation can you choose what to delimit a regex with?
14:14:48 <oklopol> okay, guessed correctly, still division by zero ofc
14:15:51 <oerjan> (and probably vi then)
14:16:45 <fizzie> sed lets you do it, too. At least this sed.
14:17:27 <fizzie> For the s command, anyway. Maybe not for the address part.
14:17:53 <oerjan> well that's probably for vim too
14:18:31 <oerjan> you need some prefix to know that there _could_ be an "arbitrary" character
14:18:59 <fizzie> Right. Perl needs the 'm' there -- as in "$foo =~ m#...#" -- whereas with // you can just write it plain, when doing plain old matching.
14:19:18 <oerjan> fizzie: stop writing what i was about to say :D
14:19:37 <fizzie> Maybe you should just write faster!
14:20:06 <oklopol> i was actually going to explain this whole thing to myself, but you were too quick.
14:20:26 <oerjan> maybe i should take up one of those touch training games again
14:21:14 <oklopol> i used to play one a lot, then i stopped, and now i'm typing in my normal random fashion again
14:21:16 <oerjan> also, i don't necessarily _think_ that fast :D
14:21:53 <oklopol> i usually tell myself my slowness is because great machinery takes a while to get started.
14:22:04 <oerjan> i keep reformulating things in my head, i think
14:22:17 <oerjan> at least that's good for spelling
14:22:53 <fizzie> oklopol: THE MILLS OF GOD GRIND SLOWLY, YET THEY GRIND EXCEEDING SMALL.
14:22:55 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
14:22:56 <oerjan> also what's the deal, i'm still much faster than a single finger typer
14:22:57 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
14:23:14 <fizzie> (Sorry for the shouting, it's just that it needs to be said emphatically.)
14:23:32 <oklopol> fizzie: is that from somewhere?
14:23:34 * oerjan recalls that was the title of an agatha christie novel
14:23:43 <fizzie> oklopol: It's a proverb; there's a Finnish version of it too.
14:23:58 <fizzie> answers.com has some etymotorology.
14:24:21 <oklopol> i should buy a proverb/idiom/word porn book
14:24:47 <oklopol> no idea what that was about
14:24:55 <oerjan> (possibly, wut, i'm not quite sure on that usage)
14:25:12 <fizzie> oklopol: Did I ever mention that I randombly bought from a book store the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms? Quite many of them seem to be about male genitalia.
14:25:29 <oerjan> you think a book on porn proverbs would sell?
14:26:03 <oerjan> those oxonians are such dicks
14:26:11 <fizzie> Opened a random page, and it said: "girl^1: a prostitute".
14:26:46 <oklopol> i have that whatchacallit or whatchacallit book which is a similar one for american english
14:27:05 <fizzie> "come together: to copulate". "persuade: to compel through violence or threats".
14:27:11 <fizzie> There are example uses of them all.
14:27:49 <oklopol> well the persuade works, girl i've never heard
14:28:22 <oklopol> i can come up with example uses, but i wouldn't actually say girl means prostitute, usage would just be implied.
14:28:37 <oklopol> oerjan: right, both in use tho
14:29:16 <oerjan> i understand some slangs do the reverse
14:29:45 <fizzie> There are quite many in here that are tagged obsolete, too. "break the pale: to be promiscuous; The pale, as in paling, was a piece of wood, then a fence, then a fenced-in curtilage, and finally a district under the control of a centre with hostile natives prowling outside. ...
14:29:54 <oerjan> (use a word meaning "prostitute" for girls in general)
14:29:59 <oklopol> it's not that uncommon among certain groups to call women whores in finland
14:30:17 <oerjan> so what is the reverse of euphemism
14:30:19 <fizzie> ... If you broke the pale, you were somewhere where you should not have been: ... he breaks the pale, And feeds from home. (Shakespeare, The Comedy of Errors) [obsolete]"
14:32:00 <fizzie> There's a "thematic index" at the end of this book, and the "male genitalia" heading seems to have around 180 entries under it.
14:32:11 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
14:32:18 <oerjan> DON'T YOU GO SPREADING LIES
14:32:26 <fizzie> eye(n) in MATLAB/Octave creates a n-times-n identity matrix.
14:32:43 <oklopol> oerjan: if i *went* to spread lies, then i couldn't tell them to you.
14:32:56 <oklopol> so i'll just stay and spread them
14:33:13 <oerjan> you could have a mobile connection
14:34:59 <oklopol> i love how fizzie responds to puns by saying something completely random that's inspired by the idea of the pun
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14:35:59 <fizzie> "pork sword", "spam javelin", "horn of plenty", "man-root"... even "thing", "thingy", "thingamajig"; anything's a penis these days.
14:36:11 <oklopol> most people either ignore them, groan at them or continue them.
14:36:42 <oklopol> fizzie: well, thing i've heard.
14:37:01 <oklopol> the rest not, although they are kinda guessable.
14:39:38 <oklopol> kinda trivial, but i haven't seen that addressed anywhere, and never occurred to me
14:40:38 <fizzie> "spam^1: a penis; The common meat^2 imagery, from the proprietary brand of processed sweet pork (which is said to taste like human flesh). In many vulgarisms such as /spam alley/ or /chasm/, the vagina; /spam spectre/ or /javelin/, the penis viewed sexually."
14:43:53 <fizzie> Contrary to expections, this book hasn't really been very useful.
14:46:09 <fizzie> An electronic version would be more useful; then I could have it annotate all words of IRC comments which are euphemisms.
14:47:07 <Slereah_> I try a ListLogPlot on Mathematica, it no works :(
14:48:11 <oerjan> mathematica is plotting against you
14:48:44 <Slereah_> Well, at least it's plotting logarithmically
14:50:26 <fizzie> "plotcock [obsolete]: the devil; 'Seven times does her prayers backwards pray, Till Plotcock comes with lumps of Lapland clay,' (A. Ramsay, 1800 -- all genuine witches pray backwards, and Lapland was their fabled homeland before being taken over by Father Christmas)"
14:50:32 <fizzie> Okay, okay, I'll put the book away.
14:52:22 <oerjan> but then you wouldn't be fulfilling your stereotype!
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15:16:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: you will never know now *BWAHAHAHA*
15:16:24 <oerjan> unless, that is, you find the logs
15:16:54 <AnMaster> I could read scrollback, but it seemed trivial to ask.
15:17:18 <oerjan> also trivial to tease you
15:17:20 <AnMaster> "Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms" :D
15:20:23 <AnMaster> <oklopol> i love how fizzie responds to puns by saying something completely random that's inspired by the idea of the pun <-- very good description of fizzie behaviour in such cases.
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15:38:51 <ehird> (messes with fan settings)
15:39:04 <ehird> although admittedly, just making them run at full speed isn't very dangerous
15:39:22 <ehird> I thought smoke was coming out of the computer but it was just blowing out dust :D
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15:45:37 <ehird> 08:20 Sgeo is bored on Freenet
15:45:37 <ehird> 08:20 Sgeo: Ideas?
15:45:44 <ehird> Child porn (being the only thing Freenet has).
15:45:47 <ehird> 02:37 ais523: quick #esoteric poll: if you don't want to use / to delimit a regex for some reason (e.g. if it contains lots of slashes), what character do you most often use instead?
15:46:38 <ehird> 09:45 Sgeo: http://16systems.com/zero.php hm, social flaw with the experiment: Who'd reveal that they can break that sort of thing?
15:46:45 <ehird> Data recovery "experts".
15:46:49 <ehird> That's their whole business.
15:47:10 <ehird> "One zero write is not enough to remove all data!" they say. "We can recover it," they say.
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16:13:10 <ehird> No, it's completely bullshit.
16:13:22 <ehird> Reputable companies don't offer to recover zeroed out disks.
16:14:00 <oklopol> i meant is it true you can't recover a zeroed hd
16:15:08 <oklopol> i thought you could, even though my brain says it's a ridiculous idea :)
16:15:35 <ehird> oklopol: well you look at the zeroes and some are like
16:15:46 <ehird> it might make sense on weed.
16:15:53 <oklopol> i guess it's one of those incorrect things i considered important and committed to my head when i was small.
16:16:49 <oklopol> err well from a physical perspective it makes sense they might be one-y, they aren't on an atomic scale yet.
16:16:58 <oklopol> but from a technical perspective not so muych
16:19:18 <oklopol> ehird: also did you know if you eat snot it goes right in your brain.
16:19:31 <oklopol> that's still somewhat true to me.
16:19:37 <ehird> oklopol: does that like apply to everything?
16:19:44 <ehird> my brain is currently filling itself with toast.
16:20:20 <ehird> oklopol: by sort of true do you mean it's a true-y false
16:21:28 <oklopol> why does everything except south park keep vanishing from streaming sites
16:22:14 <oklopol> i mean afaiu fox shows many of the shows that keep getting "removed due to infringement" free on their website, except only if you're american
16:24:02 <oklopol> ehird: wanna know the exact data i have on hd recovery?
16:24:02 <ehird> oklopol: because media companies are stupid
16:24:13 <oklopol> you need to remove a file 8 times before it cannot be recovered anymore.
16:24:13 <ehird> oklopol: as long as it's not X-y Ys
16:24:29 <ehird> oklopol: you mean your "false but kinda true-like" data?
16:24:47 <ehird> well I guess it removes a bit from each character of the file each time.
16:25:09 <ehird> (the real reason is that filesystems just mark the blocks as free, they don't actually erase them, ofc you can just zero out the file before deleting it)
16:25:17 <oklopol> i heard this when i was like 8; never occurred to me it might be *false*, so i spent hours and hours trying to figure out whether that meant the link was removed 8 times, which made no sense, or whether it was about how many times the actual data was removed, which i found unintuitive at the time as well
16:25:25 <oklopol> still, it was an important fact i needed to remember.
16:25:50 <ehird> oklopol: i wish I understood that kindsofstuff when i was la 8
16:25:59 <ehird> i only started being non-stupid around 9/10
16:26:51 <oklopol> well. i may have been awesome when i was 6-8, but i was just as awesome when i was 8-11.
16:27:05 <oklopol> i mean on an absolute scale, not on a relative one
16:27:07 * oerjan wonders when he'll start being non-stupid
16:27:37 <oklopol> okay i'm still very stupid, i'm just a bit less ignorant
16:28:13 <oklopol> and i've actually learned some media criticism over the years, although i still usually cannot spot lies, unless they are sarcasm.
16:28:39 <oklopol> well i can spot lies, but there are certain things i don't understand that are kinda like sarcasm but not.
16:29:02 <oklopol> hard to explain, and unnecessary, point is i suck at certain social things :)
16:29:59 * oklopol tries to think of an example to remember what he's referring to
16:29:59 <ehird> "can we malloc mem at addr 0 so null ptrs dont' cause core dump?"
16:30:20 <ehird> from http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/54c90bb925b9d331#
16:30:24 <ehird> someone linked it, I forget
16:30:37 <ehird> "Is your company working on X-ray equipment, or anything that might endanger a human life? "
16:30:54 <oklopol> i would suggest putting a level of interpretation on it
16:31:00 <ehird> "iPhone is a success because it's code doesn't dereference null pointers."
16:31:04 <ehird> mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmi think there may be other factors
16:31:06 <oklopol> well that or sandboxing, same end result
16:31:20 <ehird> "Man, you seen the iPhone? It doesn't dereference null pointers. How fucking cool is that?"
16:31:37 <oklopol> yeah iphone is a success because it's so good at what it does. there are tons of things it actually does better than some earlier phone.
16:31:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, it makes calls better? ;P
16:32:02 <ehird> i think mallocat was like, malloc + cat
16:32:10 <ehird> it allocates a new cat in memory...?
16:32:28 <AnMaster> ehird, it mallo a cat, you miscounted the "c"s
16:32:47 <ehird> portmaneuvers often drop common end/start letters.
16:33:59 <oklopol> so something got stuck playing "soda soda soda soda soda..." on my speakers.
16:34:26 <oklopol> well i closed ff, and it stopped after a minute
16:35:12 <oklopol> i think it was from south park's theme song, but the voice that said the soda doesn't sing in it...
16:35:43 <AnMaster> odd, I never had sound playing got stuck from website
16:35:57 <AnMaster> in fact I never had sound playing from within firefox at all :D
16:36:04 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i use linux, it's kinda common
16:36:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, I guess it depends on what (if any) plugins you have installed
16:42:04 <iano> speaking of one-y zeros...
16:42:22 <iano> has anyone done an esolang based only on fuzzy logic?
16:42:29 <ehird> if not they should
16:42:31 <ehird> I love fuzzy logic
16:42:38 <ehird> it's so unintuitive-y intuitive
16:43:00 <iano> especially since "brainfuzz" hasn't been taken yet :)
16:43:21 <ehird> bah, brainfuck derivatives :-)
16:44:03 <iano> ok, "hotfuzz" then
16:44:19 <iano> (what the heck would fuzzy inc/dec be anyway?)
16:44:30 <ehird> just have one operation, ?
16:44:37 <ehird> which is a decrement-y increment
16:44:53 <ehird> well, and some fuzzy looping things and IO
16:45:03 <ehird> the program is executed by the decrements and the increments coming to a compromise
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17:27:37 <ehird> Factor's new UI is nice.
17:31:13 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=589
17:31:14 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=590
17:40:39 <AnMaster> ehird, hm a fuzzy logic language, how would you program in it?
17:42:05 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be non-deterministic? Or am I confusing two different things here.
17:42:58 * AnMaster wants to see some programming examples in fuzzy logic then to be able to get a feel for the language.
17:43:27 <AnMaster> something representative for fuzzy logic programming in pseudo code.
17:45:13 <AnMaster> it's like feather then in that no one described it precisely enough for me to get a feeling of what it is like. Languages like that are like an itch (if you see what I mean).
17:45:56 <AnMaster> ehird, hm would SQL's TRUE/FALSE/NULL count as fuzzy logic?
17:46:11 <ehird> google fuzzy logic
17:46:22 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic
17:46:29 <AnMaster> I did, and I'm reading the wikipedia page.
17:47:03 <iano> variables would be floating point 0..1
17:47:13 <iano> operations would be MIN, MAX, NOT
17:47:18 <ehird> you should have it baked in
17:47:37 <AnMaster> iano, not floating point, arbitrary precision fractions.
17:47:50 <iano> and a comparison operator
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17:56:56 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: did you have used glfunge98's opengl interface?
17:58:06 <ehird> lifthrasiir: don't talk about glfunge98, it's a shame on fizzie!
17:58:12 <Deewiant> Don't think I ever got it to work
17:59:14 <lifthrasiir> i'm working on my proof-of-concept funge editor and debugger, to be familiar to opengl
18:02:14 <ehird> lifthrasiir: Deewiant: bequnge
18:02:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:02:19 <ehird> bad impl, maybe a good editor?
18:02:27 <Deewiant> I didn't even like the editor part of it
18:02:48 <Deewiant> But Fungus has the pretty run history drawing :-)
18:10:28 <lifthrasiir> fungus looks not bad, but seems missing some features
18:11:46 <AnMaster> ehird, the editor part of Bequnge have sound effects
18:11:51 <ehird> AnMaster: AWESOME.
18:12:13 <AnMaster> apart from that it looks like a cross between the matrix, befunge, and some educational program about space-time
18:12:46 <ehird> who cares, that sounds great
18:13:39 <AnMaster> ehird, it uses it's own fileformat too iirc, not the standard trefunge one even
18:14:34 <AnMaster> and it is badly implemented befunge-93 with some extensions (those extensions being larger size and extra dimensions, up to 105 iirc)
18:14:59 <AnMaster> however, it is missing quite a few of the befunge-98 instructions
18:15:01 <kerlo> I want a computer program that takes a number and a computer program and outputs an equivalent computer program, and another that takes the resulting computer program and outputs the number and the original computer program.
18:15:16 <ehird> kerlo: godel numbering.
18:15:21 <AnMaster> ehird, no clue, and I might have misremembered the exact count
18:15:21 <ehird> and the equiv program is eval "..."
18:15:44 <iano> kerlo: lookup "Iota and Jot"
18:15:47 <kerlo> Well, sure, but that's a rather inefficient way of doing it.
18:16:23 <kerlo> My idea was to use this for steganography.
18:16:27 * ehird 10 [ 2 random-integer . ] times
18:16:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Re: sound effects, http://www.purplehatstands.com/bequnge/screenshots/bequnge6.png
18:16:42 <kerlo> You don't want to make it very obvious.
18:16:44 <AnMaster> kerlo, if you have a super-tc programming language handy you could generate random programs and check if they are equivalent, and then repeat the process if not, until you find an equivalent one :P
18:16:52 <ehird> why is that super-tc AnMaster
18:16:59 <ehird> comparing functions
18:17:03 <ehird> that's not super-tc
18:17:05 <ehird> that's just impossible.
18:17:21 <kerlo> It's impossible outside of super-TC.
18:17:42 <AnMaster> ehird, are you implying impossible is tc or subtc (false <whatever the word was>)
18:17:57 <ehird> impossible is impossible
18:18:00 <ehird> that is, "not possible"
18:18:36 <AnMaster> actually why is it impossible to do it for a sub-tc language in a super-tc machine?
18:18:44 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: bequnge looks like a typical IDE, which i didlike :p
18:19:11 <AnMaster> ehird, why couldn't it be "possible". And here I mean "possible" in the same sense Banana scheme is "possible".
18:19:30 <lifthrasiir> i like vim-y or emacs-y interface with minimal but helpful UI elements
18:19:33 <ehird> AnMaster: you are completely ignorant of what super-tc actually means. it does NOT mean "can do the impossible".
18:19:46 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, you like both vim and emacs?!
18:20:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, emacs is best of course ;P
18:21:15 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it would allow solving halting problem. But super-tc langs do sometimes have stuff that can solve the halting problem. But why exactly is compare functions not super-tc?
18:21:36 <kerlo> ehird: then tell us what you think "super-tc" means.
18:21:46 <ehird> kerlo: a computer more powerful than a turing machine
18:22:18 <AnMaster> wouldn't a machine able to compare two functions be more powerful than a turing machine?
18:22:33 <ehird> that's not meaningful
18:22:39 <kerlo> So, um, suppose we have a Turing machine plus a halting oracle.
18:22:40 <ehird> a machine that can do such a thing is not a meaningful concept
18:22:50 <kerlo> Yes, it is a meaningful concept.
18:23:37 <ehird> because⦠it isn't?
18:23:41 <kerlo> Anyway, I'm putting ehird on /ignore, since I already know that I'm right and I don't need to hear his arguments to the contrary.
18:24:08 <ehird> kerlo: have fun being sure of yourself
18:24:10 <AnMaster> kerlo, sounds like a good plan. Personally I'm going afk,
18:24:29 <pikhq> Ehird is considering the sort of things that can be done in reality.
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18:26:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, theoretical is way more interesting. Who cares about reality...
18:27:12 <pikhq> People who want stuff to work, I guess.
18:27:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway I guess that means ehird discards the concept of UTMs too, since you can't get infinite tape/memory in real life.
18:27:53 <ehird> it's fun watching people jump to conclusions
18:27:57 <pikhq> The universe itself might be a UTM.
18:28:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, that depends on if the universe is infinite or not.
18:28:24 <ehird> also, yeh, saying you can't get infinite shit is a rather big accusation
18:29:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, and as far as I remember the scientists are currently betting on "finite but bloody huge", but I may be wrong there. Haven't really tracked the current development in that area.
18:29:38 <pikhq> Betting on it, but the jury is still out.
18:29:52 <ehird> a hivemind consisting of many tiny little scientists, unified under one voice.
18:30:05 <ehird> bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt
18:30:11 <ehird> BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT
18:30:22 <pikhq> Also, if the universe goes under a heat death rather than a big crunch, its being unbounded in time *might* be enough to make it a UTM...
18:30:37 * pikhq is not sure, having not thought about it too much
18:30:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Just wondering if ehird had a point, evidently not
18:31:15 <ehird> pointy pointy point point
18:31:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, but is there enough matter in there to store the state?
18:31:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so he is talking? I see
18:32:08 <ehird> <AnMaster> See this? I'm so cool I only need to reference ignoring people *indirectly*.
18:32:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, or maybe you could encode the infinite state in some other way
18:32:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: Really, the question is, can time be considered a tape or not? :p
18:32:33 <ehird> <AnMaster> Man, how can you handle my smoothness. My passive-agressivity is slick as fuck.
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18:32:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, that's an interesting idea. Hm you can't go back easily as far as we know today.
18:34:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, also wasn't there some theory that the proton might not be stable, but if so would have a enormous half life (if that is the right word for sub-atomic particles)
18:34:59 <kerlo> Erasing information = creating entropy.
18:35:09 <pikhq> Half-life is still quite accurate for sub-atomic particles.
18:35:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, right. My particle physics are a bit rusty.
18:35:30 <kerlo> Therefore, if the universe cannot hold any more entropy, information cannot be erased.
18:35:53 <AnMaster> kerlo, that is the perfect backup method!
18:36:20 <kerlo> Unfortunately, the universe is constantly being encrypted further and further. :-)
18:36:45 <AnMaster> kerlo, at least no one would get your data then :D
18:36:50 <kerlo> Heck, that's a great cryptography method.
18:37:09 <AnMaster> right, failed backup method turned great cryptography method.
18:37:11 <kerlo> Write your secret data on a little slip of paper. Put it inside a sealed time machine. Have it go forward really, really far.
18:37:18 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I think it is like printing whitespace programs.
18:37:39 <lifthrasiir> so that's one-way encryption, all right :)
18:37:42 <kerlo> Then just stir the contents around a bit; the way that you did so is the key.
18:38:18 <kerlo> To reverse the encryption, un-stir the contents and set the time machine to go backwards for the same amount of time.
18:38:25 <kerlo> Heck, the amount of time could be the key.
18:38:45 <AnMaster> kerlo, wouldn't the time machine have a non-zero entropy?
18:39:08 <AnMaster> I mean in itself, and whatever it use for power
18:39:19 <kerlo> I don't know what you're getting at.
18:39:22 <lifthrasiir> kerlo: key space can be too small unless the universe expands forever
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18:40:11 <kerlo> If you run a system forwards for a really long time, then run it backwards for the same amount of time, and any randomness the universe creates in between ends up coinciding, you'll end up with the original system.
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18:40:29 <lifthrasiir> what i said was wrong, the amount of time should be in the exponent and not in the base
18:42:02 <AnMaster> kerlo, for every n years run forward n years. I think you could do Hillbert's hotel in time this way (assuming universe expands forever). For every new time machine you need to place at some point in time, move every existing time machine one step up
18:42:19 <AnMaster> that is to the next second or whatever
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19:04:38 <ehird> ( scratchpad ) FUNCTION: void* malloc ( size_t size ) ;
19:04:38 <ehird> ( scratchpad ) -1 malloc .
19:04:42 <ehird> ( scratchpad ) 24 malloc .
19:06:08 <AnMaster> interesting way to write arguments
19:06:58 <ehird> concatenative, functional-but-not-purely, by slava pestov, has a very good VM with an aggressively-optimising compiler, generational GC, a huge standard library, a portable GUI environment that hooks into $editor_you_like, and that uses files while still being a "live" environment
19:07:34 <AnMaster> with live environment you mean closed world<q>
19:07:54 <ehird> live as in you can poke all around the system as one world; often this implies closed world
19:07:58 <ehird> but factor isn't closed world
19:08:11 <ehird> it's all the benefits of closed-world while not restricting you like that
19:08:25 <ehird> (also: very good documentation)
19:09:02 <ehird> http://factorcode.org/; but if you want to try it out, use the git repo: http://concatenative.org/wiki/view/Factor/GIT%20repository
19:09:08 <ehird> as it has several UI improvements
19:09:13 <ehird> (use the bleeding-edge, not clean)
19:10:15 <AnMaster> ehird, some descriptive example?
19:11:57 <ehird> AnMaster: here's the graphical tetris game from the stdlib (which contains some examples, documentation, slides from talks about it...): http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595
19:12:12 <ehird> 114 lines of code, well-factored, with whitespace and whatnot
19:12:55 <ehird> but yeah, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with another environment where you can write tetris in that few lines of code using only the stdlib without obfuscating
19:12:59 <ehird> AnMaster: well, not "stdlib"
19:13:06 <ehird> it's just a bundled module, as an example
19:13:10 <AnMaster> USING: accessors combinators kernel lists math math.functions sequences system tetris.board tetris.piece tetris.tetromino ;
19:13:13 <ehird> you can learn factor from within itself
19:13:22 <ehird> AnMaster: all except tetris.*
19:13:28 <ehird> I can paste the other tetris modules if you want
19:13:48 <AnMaster> I mean what sort of language would have a tetris module in the standard library
19:14:02 <AnMaster> yeah that could be hard to do as compact
19:14:07 <ehird> AnMaster: http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#294 tetris.board
19:14:29 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#295 tetris.gl
19:14:32 <AnMaster> ehird, but if text based was allowed I wouldn't be surprised if it could be done as short
19:14:50 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#296 tetris.piece (these are all just helper modules)
19:15:13 <AnMaster> ok but that ends up not quite as compact indeed
19:15:18 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#297 just "tetris" module
19:15:28 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#298 tetris.etromino
19:15:31 <ehird> AnMaster: indeed, but
19:15:38 <ehird> the actual logic is very compact
19:15:51 <ehird> the rest is mostly interface stuff and tetr definitions
19:16:51 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, and, factor's directory is user-writable stuff, and it works in-tree
19:17:02 <ehird> so put the git repo in ~/local/factor/ or whatever if you do
19:17:17 <AnMaster> so you can't install it in a site-wide shared location?
19:17:31 <ehird> not that I know of
19:17:38 <ehird> AnMaster: but that's because
19:17:42 <ehird> e.g. you can rewrite all of the stdlib
19:17:45 <ehird> from within the environment
19:17:49 <AnMaster> ehird, no distros can have packages of it either
19:18:00 <AnMaster> just do something like unionfs
19:18:01 <ehird> it's not like that
19:18:13 <ehird> the distro would make a "make-factor-instance" command
19:18:20 <ehird> $ make-factor-instance ~/local/factor/
19:18:23 <ehird> it's because it's so malleable
19:18:39 <ehird> the only constant things are the VM, pretty much; and it's tiny enough that you might as well keep it there
19:18:48 <AnMaster> ehird, and that would work as an overlay and refer to the system wide read only base for unchanged modules?
19:19:01 <ehird> congrats, you just ruined factor
19:19:23 <AnMaster> I was suggesting for space saving doing something quite like unionfs
19:19:25 <ehird> well that's stupid, more work for something that saves a tiny bit of disk space
19:19:27 <ehird> they're just text files
19:20:08 <AnMaster> ehird, hm linux source is almost only text files (there is an small image of tux too) yet even the compressed tarball is something like 30 or 40 MB iirc
19:20:17 <ehird> well, linux is huge
19:20:39 <ehird> I just measured my factor directory
19:20:51 <ehird> there's the 80MB factor.image; which is the workspace image file and obviously can't be shared
19:21:09 <ehird> and there's a few megabytes of binaries
19:21:30 <ehird> [ehird:/Applications/Factor] % du -sh core
19:21:31 <ehird> [ehird:/Applications/Factor] % du -sh extra
19:21:35 <ehird> which is tiny these days
19:21:42 <AnMaster> [ebuild N ] sys-kernel/vanilla-sources-2.6.27.10 USE="-build -symlink" 49,327 kB
19:21:43 <ehird> so, you wouldn't save all that much
19:21:45 <oklopol> and either i'm getting more patient or that was really easy to read.
19:21:52 <AnMaster> and that's the bzip2ed tarball
19:21:59 <ehird> yes, well, the kernel is huge
19:22:04 <ehird> oklopol: yeah it is quite easy to read if you go through it
19:22:12 <pikhq> I wish they'd start using LZMA'd tarballs.
19:22:15 <AnMaster> ehird, just saying "only text" doesn't mean a lot
19:22:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Text compresses very well.
19:22:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, it would save an MB or so at most. And take much longer to compress for a few seconds difference in download time.
19:22:51 <AnMaster> I don't think doing lzma would be worth it
19:23:12 <pikhq> A megabyte is about 10 minutes of download time. ;)
19:23:41 <ehird> AnMaster: I calculated it, you'd save about 18MB total.
19:23:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, why don't you upgrade. It will be cheaper too, I mean dialup is per-minute but adsl is fixed cost per month usually
19:23:51 <ehird> AnMaster: he can't get it.
19:23:56 <pikhq> They don't *offer* broadband here.
19:24:11 <AnMaster> ehird, that's per instance or?
19:24:14 <pikhq> I'm in the US. We suck at broadband.
19:24:18 <ehird> AnMaster: right; compared to the 80MB image file, saving 18MB is peanuts
19:24:23 <ehird> remember that one instance can have multiple projects
19:24:29 <AnMaster> ehird, lets say you have lots of users, maybe you are a university that wants once instance per student
19:24:38 <ehird> AnMaster: let's assume unrealistic shit
19:24:42 <ehird> and use it to support our arguments
19:24:44 <AnMaster> ehird, you mount the base copy over nfs or such
19:24:52 <ehird> oklopol: not sure, it isn't really documented
19:24:56 <AnMaster> ehird, why is that unrealistic...
19:25:11 <ehird> oklopol: oh, it's generic
19:25:15 <ehird> what's it called on?
19:25:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, but won't it cost a lot to idle on irc then...
19:25:20 * pikhq goes to check how much you save with LZMA'ing the tarball.
19:25:31 <oklopol> ehird: noooo i mean the syntax
19:25:41 <ehird> oklopol: id>> is just a word
19:25:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh, no. They still mean "unlimited" when it comes to dialup.
19:26:08 <ehird> oklopol: id>> is just like hello or chocolate or **ANBUTT**
19:26:13 <ehird> no special meaning
19:26:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, never heard of such unlimited dialup
19:26:32 <pikhq> It's been ubiquitous since the introduction of 56k modems...
19:26:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, when I had dialup it was pay per minute thing.
19:26:56 <ehird> oklopol: same with lisp
19:27:01 <ehird> id>> has no special meaning in lisp either
19:27:24 <ehird> oklopol: but, by convention:
19:27:26 <ehird> oklopol: For every tuple slot, a reader method is defined in the accessors vocabulary. The reader is named slot>> and given a tuple, pushes the slot value on the stack.
19:27:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, well not a lot per minute, but it was per time unit you were connected yes.
19:27:33 <oklopol> ehird: i mean weird how they keep using X, X>> and >>X in the same document without them being about the same X
19:27:39 <ehird> oklopol: so "foo rows>>" is "foo.rows"
19:27:47 <ehird> the setter is >>rows
19:27:54 <ehird> "foo x rows>>" "foo.rows = x"
19:28:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, and it might have been more fine graded than minute, maybe it was per second.
19:28:17 <oklopol> ehird: when i asked what it meant, i implicitly meant conventions too
19:28:26 <ehird> oklopol: right I misunderstood at first
19:28:42 <pikhq> You got ripped off rather hardcore there.
19:28:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, nop, all ISPs were like that back then
19:28:57 <ehird> AnMaster: you're wrong.
19:29:44 <AnMaster> it was like that when I switched from 28k to 56k, it was the same some years later. Not sure if it was still like that when I switched to ADSL (which is unlimited indeed)
19:29:53 <Deewiant> By 'all ISPs' he means 'all ISPs in Sweden'.
19:30:03 <Deewiant> It was like that in Finland as well.
19:30:13 <pikhq> So, Europe got really screwed over.
19:30:14 <Deewiant> And Germany, I think, but not sure.
19:30:18 <ehird> 19:27 ehird: "foo x rows>>" "foo.rows = x"
19:30:18 <oklopol> "foo x rows>>" "foo.rows = x" <<< probably+ ">>rows" here
19:30:20 <ehird> *this should be >>rows ofc
19:30:22 <pikhq> And now, the US gets screwed over with broadband.
19:30:44 <Deewiant> And it was still like that when we switched to ADSL which was post-2000.
19:30:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think we have the upper hand nowdays. :P Go get ADSL instead of complain about bzip2 compressed tarball
19:30:54 <ehird> oklopol: also, "tuples" = "classes" basically. also, it's all multi-dispatch
19:31:06 <ehird> oklopol: as in, instead of specializing on the magic first argument (the instance), it specializes on all
19:31:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I think I went ADSL in 2005 or so
19:31:26 <pikhq> I'd love to, I really would. If the freaking phone company would offer ADSL here, I'd have it.
19:31:35 <Ilari> And DSL is pretty obsolete if one wants "world-class" speeds. Fiber is pretty much only option for that :-/
19:31:38 <ehird> pikhq: you used to have adsl right?
19:31:44 <ehird> Ilari: ADSL2+ isn't too bad is it?
19:31:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know a lot of people in US with cable too.
19:31:50 <ehird> not fiber-speed, but...
19:32:01 <pikhq> ehird: I used to be on campus, and before that, I was at a different house, with cable.
19:32:03 <oklopol> ehird: wanna be more specific?
19:32:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I can't remember the exact year but I know it was post-2000. :-P
19:32:14 <AnMaster> 8 mbps down is enough in my experience
19:32:22 <AnMaster> usually you are limited by the speed of the mirror anwyay
19:32:28 <Ilari> 24Mbps is not "world-class". :-)
19:32:30 <ehird> oklopol: lessay python, "x.foo(y,z)" decides which foo to call based on the type of x right?
19:32:40 <ehird> oklopol: multi-dispatch generalizes it, by dispatching on every one of (x,y,z)
19:32:46 <pikhq> And on campus, I tended to get my 100Mbps line filled.
19:32:47 <ehird> e.g. common lisp's object system does this
19:32:52 <ehird> which fits in with its (f x y z) syntax
19:32:58 <ehird> and it fits in with factor's x y z f syntax too
19:33:06 <ehird> oklopol: multi-dispatch handles things like + effectively
19:33:14 <ehird> as in, each number type doesn't haev to know about all the others when it gets +'d with one
19:33:21 <oklopol> ehird: right, kinda like __radd__ and friends in python but less retarded
19:33:21 <ehird> because it's defined over (first arg,second arg)
19:33:23 <pikhq> Ilari: 24Mbps is the fastest offered in the US, sadly.
19:33:30 <pikhq> And that's if you've got fiber.
19:34:28 <pikhq> Oh, and did I happen to mention that there's *maybe* 2 choices of ISP in any given area?
19:34:32 <pikhq> And they both suck?
19:36:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:36:15 <ehird> ( http://www.bogons.net/ )
19:36:57 <ehird> guys do you think oklopol's computer from 2001 is 32 or 64 but
19:37:09 * pikhq just checked; LZMA instead of BZ2 saves 7 megabytes from the Linux tarball.
19:37:32 <pikhq> ehird: I guess 32; he probably doesn't have IA64.
19:37:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, is that bzip2 --best vs lzma <whatever the parameter was>
19:37:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, and how much longer did it take to compress it than bzip2
19:38:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's bzip2 as given by kernel.org vs. lzma.
19:38:05 <oklopol> if you want you can give me commands to execute root on my cli
19:38:09 <oklopol> if they help determining that
19:38:10 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure both are on default settings.
19:38:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, in my experience lzma takes WAY WAY WAY longer to compress
19:38:17 <pikhq> And it took a few minutes to compress.
19:38:28 <pikhq> Yeah, lzma is slow at compression.
19:38:37 <pikhq> Faster than bz2 to decompress, though.
19:39:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, I really think the kernel devs got better things to do than compress with lzma.
19:39:27 <AnMaster> anyway lzma defaults to -7, try lzma -9
19:39:27 <oklopol> stop talking about lzma, it's like the only well-known compression algo our compression course skipped :P
19:39:36 <AnMaster> maybe you can save a few extra bytes
19:39:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, for a few more minutes.
19:40:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't know how bzip2 works either. I can still use it.
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19:40:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: lzma -2 gets better compression ratios than bzip2 and is as fast. :p
19:41:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, interesting. How much better
19:41:27 <AnMaster> so they would still need to provide it
19:41:37 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder would it be allowed to claim that whole zipcode has "Broadband access" if one household there has broadband using 10GBASE-LR? :-/
19:41:48 <oklopol> AnMaster: why would i want to use a compression algo?
19:42:41 <pikhq> According to this table I've got, lzma -2 on 2.6.11.0 provides has a compression ratio of 18.7%, lzma -3 has 16.7%, and bzip -9 has 17.8%...
19:42:46 <oklopol> the only thing i might want to do with lzma is experiment with variations on it. using a program that's based on it doesn't sound very useful
19:43:31 <pikhq> And that's the one tarball that lzma -2 isn't better than bzip2 -9...
19:43:41 <AnMaster> what about using 2.6.28 instead
19:47:10 <pikhq> 129 secs to compress with lzma -2, waiting on bzip2 -9.
19:48:48 <AnMaster> ehird, incompatible timesharing system?
19:50:16 <pikhq> Alright, 2:12 for lzma -2 versus 2:34 for bzip2 -9. 51M for lzma -2 instead of 49M for bzip2 -9...
19:50:40 <pikhq> lzma -3 will take... A while.
19:52:13 <ehird> i'ma run the fullest lzma on it
19:52:18 <oklopol> oh bzip2 uses burrows-wheeler
19:52:56 * ehird dls linux-2.6.29.tar.bz2
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19:54:43 <pikhq> The main benefit of lzma is in decompression. Decompression ends up taking about 5k of code, low memory overhead, and is almost as fast as gzip...
19:56:09 <fizzieds> hmph. i get a "guru meditation error" from dsorganize if i connect to the bouncer, so i have to annoy you with join/quittery now.
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19:57:32 <pikhq> 6:01 to compress with lzma -3, 46M.
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20:00:41 <ehird> pikhq: don'tchu mean -a3
20:01:01 <ehird> do i have a different lzma to you
20:01:43 <pikhq> lzma 4.32.7, Copyright (C) 2005 Ville Koskinen.
20:02:34 <ehird> i've got that one now
20:03:08 <pikhq> Seems that version is rather out-of-date.
20:03:13 * pikhq shakes fist at Gentoo.
20:05:18 <ehird> % time lzma --keep --best linux-2.6.29.tar
20:05:28 * pikhq waits a few minutes
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20:11:13 * ehird 's computer grinds
20:12:05 <fizzieds> grind some lzma experience points, eh.
20:13:08 <fizzieds> i have just heard the 'lingo',
20:13:35 <fizzieds> i did 'play' that... progress quest, was it?
20:15:18 <ehird> oklopol: it plays itself
20:15:25 <ehird> it's a masturbating rpg
20:15:33 <fizzieds> it's a game where you just look at a slew of progress bars describing the progress of a hypothetical rpg.
20:16:00 <fizzieds> i'm sure there's a screenshot somewhere.
20:17:20 <fizzieds> can't really browse the tubeswith this silly thing.
20:17:35 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:17:42 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/ProgressQuest_Screenshot.png
20:18:32 <oklopol> you don't have to do anything?
20:18:51 <oklopol> i mean i love watching other people play.
20:19:35 <fizzieds> you have to start it. [i guess you could make it auto-start.]
20:20:17 <ehird> fizzieds: dude you turned into 2002-2004 again.
20:20:25 <ehird> your ds is a time machina
20:20:35 <GregorR> LOL, this commercial says "If you're allergic to Astepro, don't use it."
20:20:52 <fizzieds> it's this device, it brings out the worst in me.
20:21:18 <GregorR> "Progress quest" sounds like the most boring game imaginable.
20:21:29 <ehird> GregorR: NORLY?!?!?!
20:21:44 <ais523> ehird: there must be a corollary of rule 34 that says that some things are sufficiently boring that nobody ever thinks of invoking rule 34 on them
20:21:55 <ehird> ais523: Progress quest porn?
20:22:17 <fizzieds> loook at that progress bar go!
20:22:21 <ehird> well I dunno, all those bytes collapsing into each other
20:22:26 <ehird> you know, like, I can imagine compression rape porn
20:22:29 <ehird> i'll forcibly compress you
20:22:29 <GregorR> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
20:22:32 <oklopol> like sorting porn but more hardcore
20:22:33 <ehird> totally random data!
20:22:40 <ehird> i...can't...do...it
20:22:42 <ehird> oh god, it's expanding
20:22:48 <GregorR> Make something that, when the lzma-compressed version is interpreted as raw RGB data, is porn.
20:22:58 <oklopol> ehird: how bout some compression visualization
20:23:10 <ehird> oklopol: you could work that into it somehow
20:23:14 <oklopol> GregorR: so unzip a porn pic
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20:24:02 <AnMaster> ais523, anything new and/or interesting?
20:25:04 <ais523> oklopol: it's probably in the wrong format
20:26:03 <oklopol> ais523: also l77 tends not to have unique encodings
20:26:15 <AnMaster> ais523, btw did I mentioned I finished IftU?
20:26:22 <GregorR> Are there any compression schemes that are reliably 1-to-1? That is, if you uncompress something, then recompress it, the original and final compressed versions will always be byte-per-byte identical?
20:26:41 <GregorR> (Even if the original compressed version was a LIE :P )
20:26:47 <ais523> well, null compression is like that
20:26:53 <GregorR> What a useful statement :P
20:27:17 <oklopol> actually you can lie to it.
20:27:47 <ehird> lzma --keep --best linux-2.6.29.tar 686.81s user 4.91s system 95% cpu 12:08.12 total
20:27:52 <AnMaster> ais523, after several days of more or less constant play. It was *extremely* hard in the last few scenarios, like being unable to recruit or recall for most of them.
20:27:54 <ehird> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird staff 44M 23 Mar 23:27 linux-2.6.29.tar.lzma
20:28:03 <ehird> for the supplied bzip2
20:28:14 <ais523> "unable to recruit or recall"?
20:28:15 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure you can't lie to burrows-wheeler. but may depend on final encoding, transform is two-way deterministic at least
20:28:23 <ais523> did you at least get a few autorecalls?
20:28:56 <AnMaster> you had to select a few during the forth last (iirc, maybe fifth) or such then hang on to them for the rest of the time.
20:29:27 <ais523> ehird: give it arbitary input and ask it to decompress it
20:29:32 <GregorR> ehird: Provide input to decompress that wasn't actually produced by the d--- yeah.
20:29:35 <AnMaster> being able to recruit a few units at the next to final one again, but having very little money or income and no villages (all those auto recruited ones were set as "loyal" though)
20:29:42 <AnMaster> ais523, and I was playing on easy!
20:29:56 <ais523> AnMaster: was it classified as a hard campaign?
20:29:58 <GregorR> ehird: I want to make a file that you run it through (e.g.) gzip, and /then/ it's a plain text file :P
20:29:59 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trout_tickling
20:30:00 <oklopol> GregorR: i think some statistical ones are like that, because they're so optimized redundancy will actually break them
20:30:15 <ais523> also, what was your income source? The 2-a-turn trickle?
20:30:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it was set to three a turn, but yeah something like that
20:30:48 <ais523> and the costs were still typical costs of about 18 for a rubbish unit?
20:30:55 <AnMaster> ais523, actually {INCOME 4 4 1} or something like that iirc
20:31:11 <AnMaster> ais523, the only units you had then were low level undead ones
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20:31:21 <AnMaster> instead of low level elves like before.
20:31:46 <ais523> by the way, are there any official campaigns where you play as drakes?
20:31:53 <ais523> primarily, rather than as allies you pick up?
20:32:14 <AnMaster> ais523, then the answer is: none that I know of
20:32:56 <AnMaster> ais523, NR have them as a playable extra side though. Not just AI-controlled allies.
20:40:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:44:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: THIS! IS! RUTIAN! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:46:38 -!- GregorR has set topic: THIS! IS! OERJAN'S CHANNEL! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:47:02 <oerjan> YOU! MISSED! AN! EXCLAMATION! MARK!
20:47:38 <GregorR> THERE! DOESN'T! HAVE! TO! BE! ONE! EVERY! OTHER! WORD!
20:47:46 <GregorR> THERE! DOESN'T! HAVE! TO! BE! ONE! ON! EVERY! WORD!
20:48:02 <oerjan> YES! THERE! DOES! OTHERWISE! IT'S! NOT! THE! TROPE!
20:48:09 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitlegf1u3pozudh8?from=Main.ThisIsSPARTA
20:48:17 <GregorR> THE! TROPE! IS! THIS! IS! <PLACE STUFF HERE>!
20:48:24 <ehird> Ptitlegf1u3pozudh8; catchy page title.
20:48:36 * oerjan wonders why the heck tvtropes are obfuscating their urls
20:48:58 <oerjan> GregorR: NO! IT! ISN'T!
20:49:06 <ehird> wiki software shitness?
20:49:57 <oerjan> i have a vague feeling it happens whenever an article has two titles
20:50:15 <oerjan> why they cannot choose one readable as main title, i don't know
20:50:55 <oerjan> hm wait, the first i checked now doesn't fit that
20:51:16 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoNotGoGentleIntoThatGoodNight has an alternate title, but doesn't fit that
20:51:59 <oerjan> and it's even longer, so it's not url shortening either
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21:20:17 -!- GregorR has set topic: Β‘THIS Β‘IS Β‘TROPE Β‘INVERSION | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
21:25:42 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: you are completely ignorant of what super-tc actually means. it does NOT mean "can do the impossible".
21:26:04 <oerjan> actually it means "can do anything tc can, plus at least one impossible thing"
21:27:17 <oerjan> given that one usually assumes turing computable == possible, by the Turing thesis
21:27:29 <AnMaster> "being able to compare two functions" is super-tc, ehird claiming it is not is just plain wrong.
21:28:11 <ais523> it's certainly possible to compare functions if you have sufficiently many restrictions on them to make them comparable
21:28:12 <oerjan> also, assuming the functions are themselves computable, it's probably not even a very high super-tc class
21:28:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but he claimed comparing two functions was super-super-tc
21:28:44 <oerjan> there is a hierarchy of super-tc, of course
21:29:11 <AnMaster> which describes that in an interesting way
21:29:34 <oerjan> i would imagine comparing computable functions is somewhere in the first 2 or 3 levels
21:29:52 * AnMaster imagines a super-tc language that could solve the halting problem for itself without causing a paradox. Now that is most probably (haven't thought a lot about it yet) impossible.
21:30:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, or maybe this is hyper-tc?
21:30:54 <oerjan> the proof of the halting problem impossibility doesn't care about what extra things you include, only how you can build new functions from old ones
21:31:00 <AnMaster> hyper tc == really impossible ?
21:31:39 <oerjan> although you _could_ imagine a language that cannot build functions arbitrarily, but still super-tc
21:31:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't think that's meaningful
21:36:38 <oerjan> <ehird> because. it isn't?
21:36:47 <oerjan> you are really being trolly these days
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21:37:31 <oerjan> i mean i _can_ see a way in which what you claim is true and a way in which it is false, but since you refuse to elaborate i have no way of knowing which meaning you are referring to
21:40:09 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
21:40:51 <oerjan> i am merely estimating your maturity level, and responding similarly :D
21:41:14 <oerjan> also i don't claim to be mature.
21:42:00 <oklopol> oerjan: is the structure of all finite groups completely known, in some interesting way? :)
21:42:12 <oklopol> i mean the fact prime sized groups are always cyclic
21:42:16 <oklopol> made me think about some kinda decompositions
21:42:23 <oerjan> the simple finite groups are classified
21:42:31 <oerjan> where "simple" is a technical term
21:43:12 <oerjan> this is also known as the Enormous Theorem, which should be a hint of the work that was needed to achieve it :)
21:43:14 <oklopol> that was not completely my own thinking, i heard something about decompositions on a lecture, but wasn't really paying attention because i was busy reading something else
21:44:02 <oklopol> hmm, maybe there's a reason there's a separate group theory course even though the three algebra courses are already largely about groups
21:44:29 <oklopol> (largely != mostly, but still)
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21:44:53 <oerjan> a simple group is one that has no normal subgroups
21:45:28 <oerjan> {e} and the group itself is always there, ofc
21:46:00 <oklopol> ofc, ofc. i've done tons of work on this shit, the more you say the more my brain gets insulted :P
21:46:14 <oklopol> you have to be careful when teaching me.
21:46:15 <oerjan> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ClassificationTheoremofFiniteGroups.html
21:46:59 <oerjan> well, since it seemed you had not heard about simple groups, i dared not assume you had heard about normal subgroups either
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21:48:19 <oklopol> the way the course was taught normal subgroups were pretty much the most important thing
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21:50:56 <oklopol> (the group part of basic algebra 1 was about building up for homomorphism theorem)
21:51:03 <oklopol> (or whatever that's called)
21:51:49 <oklopol> but there was no theory on simple groups afair
21:52:12 <oklopol> well i actually read it a few minutes ago, so i think i can safely say there wasn't ;)
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22:27:46 <ehird> 21:27 oerjan: given that one usually assumes turing computable == possible, by the Turing thesis
22:27:50 <ehird> 21:36 oerjan: you are really being trolly these days
22:27:50 <ehird> you're being more confrontational these days :D
22:28:10 <oerjan> you're just saying that because you're an asshole
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22:33:31 <oerjan> <pikhq> So, Europe got really screwed over.
22:34:04 <oerjan> free local calls were never the custom here, i guess given that it's obvious they would do so
22:34:58 <oerjan> for dialup, that is, since it wouldn't be totally free per minute anyway
22:35:18 <Sgeo> All OOTS fans: 646 is up
22:36:51 <oerjan> oots got a bit too dark for me, i haven't read it since the familicide strip
22:36:57 * ehird plays with factor's irc.client
22:37:34 * oerjan realizes that might be considered a spoiler
22:39:20 <ehird> familicide? ooh, link!
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22:43:33 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/libjit-linear-scan-register-allocator/ β like time cube for jit solutions
22:43:47 <ehird> llvm is educated stupid!111
22:47:40 <Sgeo> "LibJIT has a huge .NET and Java background and huge real world experience."
22:47:52 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or does the person seem to think that LibJIT is a person?
22:48:17 <ehird> that would explain the ranting
22:51:26 <ehird> "*by clicking you are agreeing to our terms and conditions & privacy policy "
22:51:55 <ais523> in the US, you would be
22:52:09 <ais523> there's a controversial precedent that breaking the terms of service of a website is illegal under the same rules that ban hacking
22:52:25 <ais523> anyway, they said clicking, just use they keyboard
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23:14:13 <ehird> wow, culmulative gc time 12ms
23:14:24 <ehird> (total runtime 1.8s)
23:14:32 <ehird> (and average gc pause of 4us)
23:14:40 <ais523> maybe it didn't run out of memory very often, so didn't have to gc a lot
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23:15:03 <ehird> ais523: the benchmark is specifically designed to cause a lot of GCs
23:15:12 <ehird> also, running out of memory is not what triggers modern gcs
23:15:16 <ehird> in this case it's a generational collector
23:15:25 <pikhq> ais523: There's a far better argument against EULAs.
23:15:25 <ais523> things like allocating terabytes in a loop, but not using them
23:15:34 <ais523> pikhq: oh, there are lots; which in particular were you thinking of?
23:15:37 <ehird> : garbage 100 f <array> ;
23:15:37 <ehird> : garbage-loop 15000000 [ garbage drop ] times ;
23:15:38 <pikhq> First, it's a contract being presented under duress.
23:15:39 <ehird> [ garbage-loop ] time
23:15:50 <pikhq> Second, it's a contract that no reasonable person would agree to.
23:16:03 <ehird> ais523: that is: 15000000 times, push an array of 100 "false" elements onto the stack, then drop it
23:16:08 <ehird> "time" just reports the statistics
23:16:22 <pikhq> Third, *you don't need a license* to use software.
23:16:44 <ais523> pikhq: <dubious argument which is unfortunately a legal precedent>you're copying it into memory when you run it</dubious>
23:17:02 <pikhq> Which court set that precedent again?
23:17:11 <pikhq> Please say it's not federal.
23:17:14 <ehird> God I hate people who try to restrict digital copying.
23:17:21 <ehird> IT'S AN INHERENT PROPERTY OF THE MEDIUM, DOUCHEBAGS!
23:18:59 <ehird> the benchmark I used was actually
23:19:03 <ehird> : garbage 1 2 3 3array ;
23:19:03 <ehird> : garbage-loop 150000000 [ garbage drop ] times ;
23:19:04 <ehird> [ garbage-loop ] time
23:19:13 <ehird> which runs 100x more, but makes an array of only 3 elements
23:20:56 <Gracenotes> lol i stalk u, ehird οΌγββΏβοΌ
23:21:00 <pikhq> ais523: Also, 17 USC 117 explicitly allows you to make copies of software for running it or for backups.
23:21:19 * ehird runs β β β β β β β β
23:21:57 <oklopol> ehird: did you know if you run in every direction in a 2d world, forever, you will eventually get back to where you started.
23:22:15 <ehird> oklopol: erm a finite 2d world I assume
23:22:26 <ehird> and wrapping at that
23:22:30 <oklopol> you should add a third dimension to make it at least possible you'll never accidentally run back to Gracenotes.
23:23:01 <Gracenotes> you mean.. up n times, down n times, left n times, right n times, etc..??
23:23:05 <oerjan> it's a statistical probability = 1 theorem
23:23:08 <ais523> well, if it's a Lahey-world, you'll end up back where you started no matter which way you go
23:23:14 <ais523> even if it's an irrational direction
23:23:27 <oerjan> you're supposed to choose a random direction each step
23:23:47 <oklopol> oerjan: is the proof simple?
23:23:59 <oerjan> i don't recall if i've read it
23:24:34 <oklopol> i think i may have proved it for 1d at some point
23:24:47 <oerjan> yeah that's simple i think
23:25:09 <ehird> oh i thought you menat like
23:25:18 <ehird> walk forwards in any direction and you will get back to your original point
23:25:23 <ehird> even though the world is infinite
23:25:33 <ehird> 'cuz that would be trippy
23:25:51 <oklopol> oerjan: what if it's a continuous random walk and you get bigger and bigger as you go
23:25:57 <oklopol> will you ever touch your starting point
23:26:03 <oklopol> i guess you could just have a size.
23:26:10 <Gracenotes> "No, I didn't get back to where I started, you're just regularly placing start flags every few miles"
23:26:59 <oerjan> i don't know, i've never done much stochastic processes
23:27:58 <oklopol> that actually happens to be one of the quadrillion things i'm interested in.
23:29:21 <oerjan> hm i guess these are all markov processes
23:29:24 <oklopol> yeah like hey nice weather outside
23:29:46 <oklopol> and you grab your dies and start throwin
23:31:36 <Gracenotes> this is interesting. according to wiki, certain random walks will return 'home' in 1 or 2 dimensions, but are not guaranteed to do so in 3 dimensions
23:33:09 <Gracenotes> 'tis interesting that it doesn't hold in higher dimensions
23:33:12 <oklopol> <oklopol> you should add a third dimension to make it at least possible you'll never accidentally run back to Gracenotes.
23:33:33 <ehird> TUPLE: point x y ;
23:33:35 <ehird> : <point> ( x y -- point ) point boa ;
23:33:36 <ehird> 120 00 <point> . ! T{ point { x 100 } { y 200 } }
23:33:39 <ehird> β I don't know why but I love writing trivial examples that I already know I know how to write
23:33:43 <ehird> (that ! thang is a comment)
23:33:44 <Gracenotes> oklopol: it was implied. if you already got it
23:34:23 <Gracenotes> governed by a property, it seems, called transiency. This is in fact vewy interestingg
23:37:53 <oerjan> the part about random walks of graphs and electrical resistance is also interesting
23:38:24 <oerjan> transiency <=> resistance to infinity is finite
23:40:08 * oerjan wonders if adding diodes would correspond to using a directed graph
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23:44:17 <ais523> in practice, they aren't a simple "let current only in one direction"
23:44:27 <ais523> there are all sorts of other weirdnesses to deal with, even in theory
23:44:39 <ais523> it's best to think of them as being very different in the two directions, but not perfect in either
23:45:43 <GregorR> Apparently, when Wendy's says "Honey BBQ chicken wings", what they mean is "chicken nuggets served in sauce"
23:50:12 <oklopol> ais523: our electronics book had about 50 pages about different models for diodes
23:50:45 <ais523> the exponential-with-offset model is the best one I've seen, and easily good enough in practice for just about anything
23:51:02 <oklopol> well that's the "physically correct" one
23:51:05 <ais523> tbh, the constant-voltage-drop model is good enough in practice unless you're doing something really weird
23:51:21 <oklopol> there was some kinda derivation of it, although i understood it not.
23:51:53 <oklopol> most likely, i wouldn't know ofc :P
23:52:05 <oklopol> i remember the book said so.
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00:13:17 <iano> is it wrong that I saw this "runs β β β β β β β β" and immediately started designing a new 2D language?
00:13:53 <oklopol> as long as it contains random walks it's fine.
00:14:32 <iano> heh, is there a unicode character for a Compass Rose?
00:14:45 <iano> would make a good random-direction operator
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00:18:28 <oerjan> well on this subject i can say with strong confidence that i don't have the foggiest idea.
00:41:27 <Gracenotes> suns, not an eight-pointed pinwheel star, but what can ya do.
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01:11:54 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=598 ! Factor is so pretty.
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07:03:15 <GregorR> Hahahah @ the mouseover on xkcd 570: "Somewhere out there is a company that has actually figured out how to enlarge penises, and it's helpless to reach potential customers."
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11:47:02 <oklopol> err is there a mathematica for linux
11:47:25 <Deewiant> Mathematica 7.0 for Linux x86 (32-bit)
11:47:25 <Deewiant> Copyright 1988-2008 Wolfram Research, Inc.
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11:48:18 <fizzie> Mathematica 7.0 for Linux x86 (64-bit)
11:48:18 <fizzie> Copyright 1988-2008 Wolfram Research, Inc.
11:48:21 <oklopol> can i like have one that is a program
11:48:23 <fizzie> I have more bits than you.
11:48:24 <Deewiant> Enroll at TKK and you'll have it
11:48:49 <oklopol> i'll just need it for a second
11:49:00 <Deewiant> If you want to calculate something just ask for that :-P
11:49:00 <oklopol> well maybe a few minutes but anyway
11:49:05 <fizzie> I don't think they have any special one-second licenses.
11:49:12 <oklopol> i have this mathematica course
11:49:19 <oklopol> and there was this set of exercises you needed to do
11:49:28 <fizzie> If you have a course, shouldn't they provide some systems to do them on?
11:50:03 <oklopol> i don't think there's a remote access to the windows part of the machines
11:50:13 <Deewiant> The Linux ones don't have it? :-/
11:50:17 <oklopol> i don't actually know this, i know nothing about computers.
11:50:31 <oklopol> err it's just on a few computers in math department :+
11:50:53 <fizzie> That's strange; one would think they have some sort of site license there too.
11:51:09 <oklopol> maybe they do, and i just haven't realized it's on all machines.
11:51:56 <oklopol> i have no idea how much there is to fix, may well be just a few details, because supposedly it was "very well done"
11:52:41 <oklopol> right this is quite viewable.
11:52:49 <oklopol> maybe not very editable tho
11:53:23 <fizzie> The Mathematica Player is free-as-in-beer for viewabilitics.
11:53:30 <fizzie> For Windows, OS X and Linux, to boot.
11:53:35 <fizzie> But it doesn't do "edit", of course.
11:55:27 <fizzie> It's also something like a hundred meggobytes to download, since it includes the whole Mathematica computronics in it, so that you can run Mathematica-powered "applications" with it.
11:55:30 <fizzie> Or something like that.
11:56:23 <fizzie> 159 MB for the Linux download, 88 MB for the Windows one. I am not quite sure why.
11:56:59 <oklopol> i guess i'll just go do it at uni tomorrow
11:57:12 <Deewiant> Probably stuff like libraries which they can expect to find on any Windows machine
11:57:39 <Deewiant> For Linux, they could say 'you need Pango' or whatever, but instead package it with the executable.
11:58:26 <fizzie> I could download and poke at it to find out, but there's a personal-information-form I don't like to fill for no real reason.
11:58:52 <oklopol> no reason for not wanting to or no reason for filling
11:59:10 <fizzie> No reason for filling. I guess there's not much reason for not wanting to, either.
12:01:31 <oklopol> reasons are like raisins, they taste good but too much of them makes you sick and also they're not very pretty.
12:03:21 <oklopol> heh, i did think it was silly of you not to want to fill that, but it seems i automatically closed the website when i saw the forms myself :P
12:24:10 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: http://cosmic.mearie.org/tmp/pyfunged-20090420.jpg no way complete, but you have an idea.
12:24:47 <Deewiant> You're doing a lot better than I am, I was doing something similar and barely got started :-)
12:25:15 <lifthrasiir> (http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2863/pyfunged20090420.jpg for archival purpose)
12:27:51 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Have you seen http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/tmp/frontend-prococol.pdf ?
12:28:13 <Deewiant> It's old and not exactly good in its current state but it might be interesting
12:28:35 <Deewiant> I meant to improve it but then CCBI got stuck on a compiler bug and I somewhat lost interest
12:29:02 <lifthrasiir> not yet, but i knew that spec exists and i think it's worth implemented
12:29:18 <Deewiant> The idea basically is, yes, but there are some problems with it
12:29:39 <Deewiant> I thought I had some related notes in a text file somewhere but I can't seem to locate them now
12:30:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I left the future of it to you iirc
12:31:12 <fizzie> Deewiant: Only you can stop Funge fires.
12:31:13 <Deewiant> CCBI1 can't really support it though
12:32:25 <AnMaster> also it will need someone to write a frontend...
12:32:41 <Deewiant> Which is what lifthrasiir is doing pretty well at
12:32:56 <AnMaster> ah good. Personally I hate UI programming.
12:36:22 <Deewiant> Hmph, if I ever had any notes I certainly don't any more
12:42:34 <Deewiant> No, I think you remember me saying I did.
12:43:53 <fizzie> No, I think I don't remember either of you saying anything regarding the remembrance of anyone wrt. to the matter of anyone remembering you saying someone did.
12:45:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err yeah that was what i meant
12:48:05 <Deewiant> Well, my logs from 2008-08 say that I made lots of comments during 2008-03 so I guess that'll do for notes.
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15:50:21 <oerjan> you didn't think it was sleep-inducing?
16:00:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, are you going to continue with jitfunge at some point? I have considered doing something like jitfunge myself in C instead, if jitfunge development is dead.
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16:23:48 <fizzie> Er, well, I do have plans, but I'm still not making any promises.
16:26:53 <Deewiant> I would guess so, given that they are plans
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16:30:09 <ehird> does linuxmathica have a gooey
16:33:12 <Deewiant> Looks pretty much the same as anywhere else, I imagine
16:33:56 <Deewiant> http://www.linuxlinks.com/portal/content/reviews/converting/Screenshots/Screenshot-Mathematica.png has something
16:34:59 <ehird> yay, my factor patch got accepted (even though it had a syntax error and was refactored a few minutes later)
16:35:35 <ehird> Core bootstrap completed in 9 minutes and 54 seconds.
16:35:35 <ehird> Bootstrap completed in 9 minutes and 54 seconds.
16:35:48 <ehird> Deewiant: it uses qt?
16:36:02 <ehird> look at the scrollbars
16:36:10 <ehird> and the checkboxes, and menus
16:36:27 <ehird> you should care about these things
16:37:56 <ehird> Deewiant: they're important; also one day you might rely on them
16:38:39 <Deewiant> Why would I rely on being able to tell from appearance whether an app uses Qt for its GUI or not
16:39:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Dude don't you even know.
16:39:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: When the robots are taken over, and you can tell friend and foe based on the GUI toolkit?
16:39:48 -!- ehird has set topic: When the robots are taken over | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:39:55 <Deewiant> If the robots are taken over that's fine by me :-P
16:40:08 <fizzie> Wahh, it's not what I meanted.
16:40:14 <oerjan> that _would_ depend on by whom, wouldn't it
16:40:21 <ehird> fizzie: Whom do you this
16:42:17 <oerjan> ehird: when you start seeing gui's like macs', except _more_ perfect, that's when you can start to worry
16:42:31 <oerjan> because then clearly the superior aliens have arrived
16:42:34 <ehird> oerjan: is that when the robots are seducing me?
16:43:18 <fizzie> Though that is easy to misspell as "sacrified".
16:43:36 <oerjan> well those may easily lead into eachother
16:44:19 <oerjan> beware of dyslexics who like to scarify kids
16:47:11 <oerjan> apparently that would be disturbing even with the real definition of "scarify"
16:52:45 <GregorR> I got an email from a "hat and cap manufacturer in China".
16:52:52 <GregorR> I can't tell if this is spam or directed advertisement :P
16:53:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:54:28 <oerjan> in any case, it's unsolicited commercial email
16:55:05 <ehird> You were basically all right.
16:55:17 <ehird> So I have just learned.
16:55:22 <ais523> presumably they just want Java
16:55:26 <GregorR> IBM was going to buy Sun and then didn't.
16:55:27 <ais523> I wonder what they'll do with the rest of the company?
16:55:44 <GregorR> Why does Oracle want Solaris?
16:55:56 <ehird> GregorR: sun are quite valuable many big corporate customers
16:56:10 <ehird> but yeah, thank god for postgre
16:56:13 <ehird> mysql is about to suck :D
16:56:14 <GregorR> ehird: So, "want" as in "will expand our business to include"
16:56:22 <ehird> GregorR: Of course.
16:56:38 <ehird> So ummm... yeah. Fuck Oracle.
16:56:42 <GregorR> Well, as opposed to "want" as in "can actually use this as a tool to improve/promote our current products"
16:57:06 <ais523> mysql's a low-level database-like product
16:57:15 <ehird> This is sad. I liked Sun even though I don't like Jav
16:57:18 <ais523> it's rather different from other databases, which are much higher level
16:58:11 <GregorR> Now I kind of wish IBM had bought it ...
16:58:25 <GregorR> And then Oracle bought IBM ;)
16:58:40 <ehird> Well, IBM may be enterprisey, but they're not Oracle-bad.
16:59:25 <GregorR> Thanks for pointing out the Oracle-owns-MySQL-ness.
16:59:32 <fizzie> Like the Sun-internal announcement (quoted in /.) says: "Oracle's interest in Sun is very clear - they aspire to help customers simplify the development, deployment and operation of high value business systems, from applications all the way to datacenters."
16:59:49 <ehird> GregorR: openoffice is impossible to code on
16:59:54 <GregorR> fizzie: That's not clear at all :P
16:59:54 <ehird> I'm pretty sure sun people are the only ones really involved
17:00:13 <ehird> fizzie: "Oracle aspires to help customers shit rainbows and unicorns."
17:00:30 <Deewiant> Isn't that what we all aspire to?
17:00:32 <oerjan> shitting unicorns sounds sort of risky
17:01:00 <ehird> Rainbows are soft, delicate.
17:01:00 <oerjan> rainbows are just light
17:01:12 <Deewiant> No, they come with liquid as well
17:01:24 <ehird> Unicorns are soft.
17:01:28 <ehird> Their horns curl in.
17:01:33 <GregorR> Eh, the hats offered on this site are all garbage anyway.
17:01:36 <ehird> While being shitted.
17:01:46 <GregorR> Lucky me I don't have to decide whether this is spam or directed advertisement then :P
17:01:47 <fizzie> Well, they probably want to sell Oracle servers as a sort of a total package, including operating system and all.
17:01:47 <ehird> fizzie: Shattered.
17:02:15 <GregorR> fizzie: Who manufactures SPARC? They could sell the whole fucking box :P
17:02:28 <ehird> DEVASTATING SHATTINATION
17:02:34 <oerjan> ehird: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurMonstersAreDifferent
17:02:39 <ehird> say that in a deep, echoy, movie trailer voice
17:03:36 <oerjan> GregorR: lessee, aren't directed advertisers just spammers that know too much about you?
17:04:16 <GregorR> oerjan: Once it gets so narrow that the average recipient of the mail, even if they were spam-gullible, wouldn't go to the site, it can no longer be spam :P
17:04:51 <GregorR> oerjan: Spam is all about finding the intersection between "spam-gullible" and "wants product" (and so it helps to have "must be gullible to believe this is a real product" there too)
17:05:29 <GregorR> Err, that is, finding the intersection by spamming everyone, of course :P
17:06:27 <fizzie> Actually Oracle's front page "Oracle buys Sun" link puts it very clearly: "The acquisition combines best-in-class enterprise software and mission-critical computing systems. Oracle plans to engineer and deliver an integrated system--applications to disk--where all the pieces fit together so customers do not have to do it themselves."
17:07:06 <GregorR> Solaris becomes "the OS for that weird database system"
17:07:13 <GregorR> And nobody ever uses it for anything else again.
17:07:16 <fizzie> They do also continue with "Customers benefit as their system integration costs go down while ...", but one would think they are more interested in diverting those costs to their pockets than to actually lower the costs, per se.
17:07:39 <ais523> Slashdot have all sorts of interesting theories about what Oracle will do
17:07:42 <GregorR> fizzie: Customers benefit when Oracle gets more money, don't they? ;)
17:08:00 <ais523> some of them even think they wanted MySQL, so as to control both high-end and low-end database software
17:09:18 <ehird> GregorR: You don't get it
17:09:23 <ehird> Big businesses rely on Solaris backwards compatibility
17:09:29 <ehird> They pay an arm and a leg to keep it working
17:09:39 <ais523> anyway, the whole Oracle-buying-Sun thing is drawing worrying parallels in my mind with Caldera buying SCO
17:09:53 <ehird> remember when sco was nice guys?
17:09:57 <ehird> yeah me neither I was born after that.
17:10:12 <ais523> actually, there are two SCOs, just to confuse matters
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17:10:36 <ais523> the original SCO became Tarentella, and are still going in a completely unrelated way to the whole mess with tSCOg, which is what Caldera became
17:10:36 <ehird> so they became evul a year before I was born
17:10:42 <ais523> tSCOg are the bankrupt vexatious litigants
17:10:44 <ehird> are tarentella good, then?
17:10:53 <ais523> tarantella are pretty neutral in all this
17:10:59 <ais523> they're more or less uninvolved
17:11:07 <ehird> ais523: they're a division of Sun!
17:11:20 <AnMaster> ais523, there is #ifdef and #if, #else and #elif, but no #elifdef?
17:11:39 <AnMaster> just wondering why it isn't there
17:11:40 <GregorR> AnMaster: I have wondered that many times :P
17:11:40 <ais523> AnMaster: no, you may as well just write it out in full
17:11:59 <AnMaster> yes, was wondering why there wasn't a short hand notation for it
17:12:42 <fizzie> Incidentally, can you mix-and-match like "#ifdef FOO .. #elif 1 == 2 ... #elif defined(BAR) ... #endif"?
17:12:43 <GregorR> THIS! IS! THE! C! PREPROCESSOR!
17:13:06 <ehird> GregorR: hello 2006
17:13:10 <ehird> how've you been getting on
17:13:16 <ehird> are snakes on your plane?
17:13:31 <lifthrasiir> so full preprocessor directive being "#(el)?if(n?def)?"...
17:13:31 <ais523> there were a load of snakes loose on a plane recently
17:13:39 <ais523> apparently it wasn't quite as dramatic as the film, though
17:13:42 <ehird> on! a! PLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:13:45 <ais523> it took them a while to even notice they were missing
17:13:51 <AnMaster> ais523, link or it didn't happen
17:13:57 <GregorR> ais523: None big enough to eat babies? :P
17:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster: it was on reddit.
17:14:02 <ehird> therefore, it happened
17:14:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:14:25 <Sgeo> What's ehird trying to prove?
17:14:33 <ehird> Sgeo: that monkeys are green
17:14:48 <oerjan> I've _had_ it with these motherfucking spartans on this motherfucking channel!
17:15:29 <ais523> well, I found this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_8000000/newsid_8001900/8001964.stm
17:15:33 -!- neldoret1 has joined.
17:15:37 <GregorR> ARGH THE TROPE-OSPHERE (not to be confused with the troposphere) IS DISINTEGRATING
17:15:40 <ais523> from the BBC's childrens news program
17:15:47 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving").
17:15:48 <Sgeo> GregorR, link?
17:15:56 <GregorR> ........................... X_X
17:16:03 <GregorR> I was saying that people are overusing tropes :P
17:16:36 <GregorR> oerjan put it over the edge.
17:17:07 <oerjan> maybe i should have put in more exclamation marks too
17:17:16 <ehird> sweet, ubuntu's git hasn't been updated because the person who assigned themselves to it has publicly stated that he hates git
17:17:22 <ehird> i love disfunctional ecosystems
17:17:31 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
17:17:56 <ais523> reminds me of the gnome screensaver config thing
17:18:10 <Sgeo> <Randall> Sgeo: hitting "random" will no longer be able to bring up xkcd.com/404/
17:18:24 <ehird> Stop ruining things.
17:19:13 * oerjan hadn't noticed that before
17:19:31 <ais523> is that a 404 page? or the 404th comic?
17:19:42 <ehird> ais523: it's a 404 page
17:19:54 <ehird> sgeo now goes and ruins the joke by complainng that "Random" can hit it
17:20:00 <ehird> i yell at him for being a jerk
17:20:06 <Sgeo> I didn't complain
17:20:21 <Sgeo> I asked what's going on. Blame someone else for complaining
17:20:27 <ehird> well i'm sure you complained in theory.
17:20:49 * AnMaster tries to work out this mess of C preprocessor
17:21:24 <Sgeo> From SL: "Hello Sgeo..I got the Antiposeballscript from a friend"
17:22:43 <oerjan> Sgeo: what about a _little_ context for us non-SL'ers?
17:22:50 <ais523> ehird: I pasted this link earlier, but you weren't here: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/54c90bb925b9d331#
17:23:04 <Sgeo> oerjan, I sell the mentioned "Antiposeballscript"
17:23:37 <ehird> I just realised. second life is genius: it emulates physical uncopyability in a world of bits and bytes
17:23:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I think I'm trying to describe a tree like: {pure C version, SSE versions: {32-bit cells, 64-bit cells} * {x86_64 inline asm: {pic, nopic}, x86_32 intrinsics: {gcc style, icc style}}} in preprocessor.
17:23:49 <ehird> it completely destroys the point of being digital and is thus comfortable
17:23:58 <ehird> ais523: Yesterday.
17:24:02 <ehird> My bouncer is always here :P
17:24:11 <ehird> although I wished it malloced a cat
17:24:12 <pikhq> ehird: And does so poorly.
17:24:14 <Sgeo> ehird, creators choose whether or not something can be copied
17:24:21 <ehird> Sgeo: Bahahahahahaha
17:25:13 <pikhq> All you need to copy stuff in Second Life is a non-official SL client.
17:25:15 <oklopol> i prefer worlds where copying doesn't exist.
17:25:26 <Sgeo> pikhq, not true for scripts
17:25:55 <ehird> Sgeo: they're not composed of bits?
17:26:01 <ehird> and yet they're on computers?
17:26:06 <pikhq> They're executed server-side.
17:26:06 <ehird> don't tell the record companies
17:26:10 <Sgeo> ehird, the bits of the script don't get transmitted to the client
17:26:29 <ehird> oh, yay, you mean like a music service where you buy music and intsead you just get access to a stream of it?
17:27:00 <ehird> it's a direct analogy
17:27:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Maybus").
17:27:11 <ais523> it's probably kind-of like accessing a website and it not sending you the server-side code
17:27:17 <oklopol> in a music streaming service the content is given to the client.
17:27:26 <GregorR> That analogy is like this analogy; it's not clever and it makes no sense.
17:27:31 <pikhq> Except for the bit where you've paid for the code.
17:27:51 <ais523> the difference is, I think, that the music that's being streamed is what you actually want, if you could save a copy of the stream you could use it in future
17:28:00 <ehird> true. it's even worse, then
17:28:04 <ais523> whereas with the server-side code, you'll probably want to be able to run it again with different data
17:28:17 <ehird> anyway, my essential point is that second life is shit and stupid.
17:28:27 <GregorR> And that's something we can all agree to :P
17:28:39 <pikhq> I think Second Life can be worthwhile, but most of SL is stupid.
17:28:42 <GregorR> That's it, Sgeo is banned.
17:28:56 <ehird> GregorR: WHY AREN'T YOU SYMPATHETIC HE PUT UP A STALL
17:28:57 <fizzie> Yes, non-conformist thoughts are a bannable offense around here.
17:29:03 <ehird> NAKED PEOPLE SET UP SHOP NEXT TO HIM!
17:29:08 <ehird> NAKED! NOW IT'LL BE MARKED AS ADULT! ;__;
17:29:26 <GregorR> fizzie: MENTIONING THAT LAW IS GROUNDS FOR A BAN
17:29:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: You're trying to pass something off as scarce in a post-scarcity economy. That makes you DUMB.
17:29:54 <fizzie> From what I've seen (via somethingawful), isn't SL anyway full of ambulatory penii?
17:30:01 <ehird> YOUR MOM IS GROUNDS FOR A BAN
17:30:13 <fizzie> Your mom, ground, in a pan.
17:30:20 <pikhq> fizzie: Second Life is like... The Web. 99% of it is porn.
17:30:27 <ehird> ... ambulatory... penii?
17:30:38 <Sgeo> fizzie, sometimes people do that, but mostly it's peaceful
17:30:49 <ehird> PORN IS UNPEACEFUL
17:30:56 <pikhq> And, since this involves low-quality 3D graphics, it's not exceptionally good porn, either.
17:30:59 <Sgeo> When a griefer attacks, if all that happens is a flying penis, I'm grateful
17:31:10 <ehird> "GRIEFER" THEY EXIST TO CAUSE GRIEF UPON OUR FINE LAND
17:31:12 <Sgeo> Often it makes the area lag to death
17:31:21 <ehird> THEY SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH!
17:31:35 * pikhq observes that Second Life is written horribly.
17:31:46 <pikhq> But it's buzzword compliant!
17:32:12 <ehird> has anyone written an automated second life lag system?
17:32:25 <pikhq> while(true)copy(this);
17:32:33 <pikhq> Second Life has gotten forkbombed.
17:32:52 <ais523> in second life, I suppose you could have a forkbomb with genuine forks
17:32:57 <ehird> ais523: i was about to say that
17:32:58 <ais523> although a turkey bomb would be better
17:33:03 <ehird> they should copy themselves and explode at the same time
17:33:47 <Sgeo> There are limits to how often items can copy themselves. A "grey goo" fence. I'm not sure exactly what it looks for though
17:33:48 <GregorR> lawl wtf ... I had Amazon set up on a credit card that just expired, I forgot to update it, I bought an MP3 yesterday (still after the card expired) and got to download it, then they cancelled that order. But ... I already have the MP3 :P
17:34:08 <ehird> clearly amazon should add DRM
17:34:12 <ehird> then they could revoke it
17:35:43 <pikhq> That was done because of a previous forkbomb.
17:36:11 <ais523> what about two items that copy each other?
17:36:29 <pikhq> ais523: Ah, Robin Hood and Friar Tuck. :)
17:36:47 <Sgeo> ais523, the limitation is from the originating object. THere's only so much that can be done
17:37:10 <Sgeo> http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=GreyGooFence
17:38:03 <Slereah_> Personnaly, my favorite is the Unlimited Fail Work
17:38:17 <pikhq> ... It keeps track of which objects were and weren't copied by an object?
17:38:18 <Sgeo> I found a hole in their Timebomb which let me write a jamming device against it
17:38:27 <Sgeo> pikhq, I guess so
17:38:58 <Slereah_> http://wiki.patrioticnigras.org/wiki/Unlimited_Fail_Works
17:39:12 <Slereah_> http://wiki.patrioticnigras.org/w/images/3/3c/UFW_1.jpg
17:39:12 <pikhq> You could probably make the SL server run out of memory by just rezzing a few forks.
17:39:27 <ehird> http://wiki.patrioticnigras.org/w/images/3/3c/UFW_1.jpg β this is pretty
17:39:44 <pikhq> And knowing how "well" SL is written, it'd probably not come up automatically.
17:40:52 <Sgeo> At some point, I'm going to modify the client so that it automatically selects physical objects when I want it to. This will stop the physical objects from moving, meaning that attacks such as that won't have such a laggy effect
17:41:31 <ehird> would you retards stop talking about SL or I'll kick you all with my kick magic powers.
17:41:33 <Sgeo> Slereah_, I like scripting
17:42:01 <Slereah_> It's the only thing SL is good for
17:42:10 <Sgeo> And you think that I can magically make whereever I'm standing be a no-script zone?
17:42:54 -!- ais523_ has joined.
17:42:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: Don't touch the client. It makes Microsoft code look sane.
17:43:04 <pikhq> (so much XML... SO much XML...)
17:43:06 <ehird> SL's client is open sauce?
17:43:21 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, but it's written by monkeys at a typewriter.
17:43:24 <Slereah_> There is even a special trollan version :D
17:43:25 <lament> GregorR: wtf, you bought an mp3 on amazon.
17:43:25 <ehird> Yay. I can find exploits in it.
17:43:35 <ehird> lament: what's wrong with amazon mp3
17:43:53 <ais523_> it makes more sense than buying an mp3 on itunes
17:43:54 <Sgeo> Slereah_, iirc, all that does is prevent being banned based on .. some hardware related stuff, I think
17:44:06 <ehird> ais523_: you can't buy an mp3 on itunes
17:44:09 <ehird> you can buy an aac, though
17:44:21 <ais523_> you don't even get proper mp3s...
17:44:27 <ehird> ais523_: AAC > MP3
17:44:37 <AnMaster> um you can convert aac to other formats iirc
17:44:39 <GregorR> Not when it's DRM-lamitude AAC.
17:44:45 <Sgeo> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/8719/166323.aspx (SL related)
17:44:45 <ehird> GregorR: iTunes has no DRM nowadays.
17:44:50 <ehird> Well, there's a few bits left.
17:44:50 <pikhq> GregorR: iTunes did rm -rf DRM.
17:44:56 <ehird> GregorR: HI WELCOME TO MONTHS AGO
17:45:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: AAC isn't lossless you ninny.
17:45:06 <GregorR> I never used iTunes because Apple is lame in general :P
17:45:25 <ehird> cdda isn't a format
17:45:30 <pikhq> CDDA is *raw* 16-bit PCM, man.
17:45:38 <GregorR> Except that the CD mastering process is lossy.
17:45:41 <GregorR> That's where the loss comes in.
17:45:41 <ehird> I used FLAC. Now I use ALAC 'cuz iTunes don't do FLAC.
17:45:49 <ehird> Lossless so no lockin or w/e
17:45:58 <ehird> Well, I have mp3s and aacs too
17:46:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, or are you claiming uncompressed is lossy?!
17:46:04 <ehird> From the seven seas.
17:46:14 <pikhq> No, I'm claiming CDDA is better than AAC.
17:46:14 <ehird> it's just uncompressed
17:46:19 <pikhq> And it's not lossless.
17:46:37 <AnMaster> how can uncompressed NOT be lossless.
17:46:48 <pikhq> Lossless refers to a property of compression algorithms.
17:46:53 <AnMaster> it isn't any compression at all, thus no loss. Thus lossless.
17:47:24 <GregorR> Also, CDDA refers to PCM /on a CD/, and like I just said, mastering CDs is a lossy process :P
17:47:25 <fizzie> But what if it's the famed lossless "null" compression algorithm at work there?Β½
17:47:26 <oklopol> what did you think it meant?
17:47:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, argh I was just about to mention it
17:47:44 <pikhq> GregorR: Where's the loss in it?
17:47:45 <lament> "better" clearly means "bigger", right?
17:47:51 <AnMaster> and yes cdda have been compressed with the null compression algorithm
17:47:58 <lament> although you could still blow it up a bit
17:48:00 <pikhq> (not arguing, just curious)
17:48:04 <lament> write every bit twice for example
17:48:28 <GregorR> pikhq: Have you ever wondered why .bin is bigger than .iso? It's because .bin stores every bit of data on the CD, whereas .iso only stores what a digital reader is supposed to read. It also includes data recovery facilities so that if bits are mismastered the reader can fix it.
17:49:11 <GregorR> Which is also why if you dump a (full) CDDA as a .wav then try to burn that to a CD, it won't fit.
17:49:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, so this extra data only exists for data cds?
17:50:04 <pikhq> s/mismastered/disc is damaged/
17:50:18 <pikhq> AnMaster, there's even more data for data CDs.
17:50:21 <GregorR> pikhq: Right, yes, but in reality the mastering/reading process is never 100% *shrugs*
17:50:24 <oklopol> extra data exists for both
17:50:45 <oklopol> AnMaster: data cd's cannot have errors.
17:50:50 <pikhq> In addition to the CD format's error correction data, the ISO 9660 filesystem has error correction data.
17:50:56 <oklopol> there's like 3 levels of error correction
17:51:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, um? Yes they can have. Just scratch it badly enough
17:51:19 <oklopol> AnMaster: i mean they aren't allowed to have
17:51:36 <pikhq> (except for VCDs; those rely on the MPEG error correction)
17:51:55 <GregorR> Anyway, that's why CDDA is uncompressed and yet not lossless :P
17:52:18 <oklopol> ehird: he sighed at me telling him something that was not weird and stupid, then laughed at GregorR's funny pun
17:52:21 <ais523> quite a few anti-copying mechanisms put weirdnesses in the correction data deliberately
17:52:31 <AnMaster> ehird, "A deep and prolonged audible inspiration or respiration of air"
17:52:37 <ehird> oklopol: oh, right, "sigh. I'm wrong. I'm just going to say sigh."
17:52:58 <AnMaster> ais523, ah yes I remember seeing such a CD once.
17:53:16 <ais523> AnMaster: I think ehird knows what a sigh is
17:53:27 <ehird> ais523: ssh, he's being condescending
17:53:35 <pikhq> And cdparanoia doesn't give a damn.
17:53:40 <AnMaster> ais523, that cd with such copy protection was not a legal copy btw. So clearly it had failed to do it's job.
17:53:43 -!- GregorR has set topic: PLACE CLEVER TOPIC HERE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
17:53:52 <ehird> a copy would remove the protection
17:53:58 <oklopol> well. when there's no theoretical possibility of doing anti-copying, you need to use methods that work in practise.
17:54:11 <ehird> oklopol: or realise that preventing digital copying is retarded?
17:54:27 <oklopol> ehird: ah, that's probably much more profitable
17:54:43 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I sighed due to GregorR's puns
17:54:45 <ais523> isn't the record for preventing something being digitally copied about 10 hours?
17:54:50 <ehird> oklopol: drm-free places are doing just fine
17:54:59 <ehird> but the whole idea of intellectual property is bunk
17:55:00 <pikhq> Few weeks; CSS took a while.
17:55:10 <ehird> we need complete and utter copyright reform to account for digital
17:55:22 <ehird> Wonder if there's a pirate party uk?
17:55:24 <ais523> yes, but CSS just encrypted the disk, the analog hole was still there
17:55:31 <ehird> ais523: ITYM "a-hole"
17:55:36 <oklopol> ehird: i will never agree with you on that.
17:55:46 <ehird> oklopol: cool story bro
17:56:18 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway why would "weirdnesses in the correction data" prevent copying.
17:56:19 <pikhq> ehird, I can't help but agree. Modern copyright law is unenforcable in the digital age.
17:56:34 <ais523> AnMaster: because the copy doesn't have the weirdnesses in
17:56:39 <ais523> the program checks to see if they're there on startup
17:56:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I saw a copy which did have the weirdnesses in it.
17:57:06 <pikhq> Doesn't do that much. Use cdrdao instead of dd, so that the subchannels are copied.
17:57:09 <fizzie> Quite many Playstation games put stuff in the CD sub-channels because those used to be rather hard to duplicate, or even read with a normal CD drive.
17:57:42 <ehird> 17:57 pikhq: Doesn't do that much. Use cdrdao instead of dd, so that the subchannels are copied.
17:57:42 <ehird> 17:57 fizzie: Quite many Playstation games put stuff in the CD sub-channels because those used to be rather hard to duplicate, or even read with a normal CD drive.
17:57:49 <ehird> was that the legit order
17:57:54 <ehird> or did those lag out of sync
17:58:02 <AnMaster> what are sub-channels on a cd? I'm afraid I don't really know a lot about the format of a cd.
17:59:23 <AnMaster> if dd doesn't copy it, I guess it is somewhat like resource/data fork style of thing.
17:59:35 <fizzie> There's metadata like current position or track start locations on the sub-channels.
18:00:29 <AnMaster> anyway how could a program check if the correction data was wrong. I mean: if a drive can read it you can copy it clearly, if it can't read it you can't copy it, nor can you verify it.
18:00:34 <AnMaster> or am I missing something else
18:00:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
18:02:33 <ehird> "One example was an early law passed by the European Parliament to support DRM in response to widespread buzz about unauthorized digital music downloads being held in computer memory caches. Apparently reasoning by analogy to "caches of arms," the use of computer memory caches was outlawed."
18:02:39 <ehird> I love that story. Always have.
18:02:54 <ehird> Hey, now the i7's small L2 doesn't matter.
18:02:58 <fizzie> You can copy them nowadays; but some hardware used to automatically compute the subchannel values, so you couldn't actually write what you want there; even though you might be able to read it. I am not really very familiar with the details here, though.
18:03:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Just don't use it and you'll be okay.
18:03:38 <pikhq> fizzie: You can still have it on the disk images all you want. ;)
18:03:53 <AnMaster> ehird, btw it sounds like an urban myth, or something that quickly was reverted
18:04:27 <Deewiant> The 'mov' instruction is against the law; use 'movnti' for everything!
18:04:32 <ehird> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/298498.stm
18:04:36 <ehird> Although that misunderstands it
18:04:40 <ehird> it doesn't just apply to the net
18:05:04 <ehird> "Professor Stephen Hawking, one of the world's leading scientists, is "very ill" in hospital, Cambridge University has said. "
18:05:51 * ehird deciddes to implement Reversi in Factor.
18:05:57 <ehird> This will be a learning experience, to say the least.
18:06:13 <AnMaster> btw one odd thing about microsoft cds... the product key... Was it the same on all copies or was every cd unique?
18:06:23 <ehird> AnMaster: every cd unique, dumbo
18:06:25 <lament> reversi on an infinite board!
18:06:28 <AnMaster> and wouldn't pressing such cds then have been impractical
18:06:31 <ehird> lament: what's so lol about reversi
18:06:36 <ais523_> lament: how do you tell who wins?
18:06:38 <ehird> lament: reversi is awesome
18:06:38 <lament> ehird: it kinda looks like Go :)
18:06:49 <ais523_> reversi is very different from go, though
18:06:55 <ehird> Reversi: Go for people who are too shit-stupid to understand it.
18:07:15 <AnMaster> iirc cd-roms are done by making a master die?
18:07:28 <ehird> AnMaster: the key wasn't on the cd
18:07:29 <AnMaster> but wouldn't each cd with an unique product key need it's own die?
18:07:31 <ehird> it was on the packaging
18:07:42 <ehird> there was an algorithm validkey(), obviously
18:07:51 <AnMaster> ehird, so the software accepted any of the valid keys?
18:08:00 <oklopol> <lament> reversi on an infinite board! <<< would change the game enormously, would probably be considerably less tactical
18:08:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sounds like one of them certainly. For which product?
18:08:18 <lament> what happens if you play reversi on say 18x18?
18:08:22 <fizzie> Ooh, the "twin sectors" trick in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD/DVD_copy_protection was new to me. There's been quite a lot of thinking about those.
18:08:33 <oklopol> reversi is mostly about getting the corners.
18:08:33 <ehird> AnMaster: it's famous
18:08:51 <AnMaster> ehird, never heard of it before
18:09:08 <ehird> okay, first I need a good data structure for reversi.
18:09:11 <fizzie> 111-1111111 used to work rather widely as a CD key, too. I think.
18:09:13 <ehird> zero seconds of thinking gives me a 2d array
18:09:35 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure the board is small exactly because adding more would just make the game longer, and moving the interesting parts further away in the game.
18:09:55 <oklopol> it's not at all like go imo
18:10:08 <oklopol> but i haven't played go much, so i'm not going to say that as a fact.
18:14:05 <fizzie> Speaking of copy protection, I quasi-recently (I guess it's was at least a year ago) had my first real frustrating experience, when a bought DVD messed-up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARccOS refused to work in the mythtv box.
18:15:19 <ehird> i wanna mythtv box
18:15:24 <pikhq> I've got a DVD here that has, as copy protection, corrupted bytes at the very start of the VOB stream.
18:15:34 <pikhq> Which screws up mplayer, but not anything that does DVD navigation.
18:16:21 <fizzie> We no longer have a MythTV box, actually, since the smoke went out of some hardware, and we discontinued our TV-watching permit. Now I just stick the iBook in that TV stand whenever something needs to be watched.
18:16:49 <Deewiant> As long as the smoke stays in, you're good
18:16:51 <fizzie> I got that DVD watched with an agonizingly slow dd_rescue image-dumping, after which it was watchable.
18:16:59 <ehird> TV-watching permit? Ya mean like the uk's tv license?
18:17:09 <fizzie> I guess it might be similar.
18:17:15 <Deewiant> Like the Finland's TV license.
18:17:24 <fizzie> Yes; is that the official term?
18:18:38 <fizzie> "TV fee" is what the official-ish website uses if I poke at the "in English" button.
18:18:59 <ehird> does it fund any national television thangs like the beeb
18:19:23 <oklopol> Sgeo: "* even the most basic list manipulation functions aren't O(N)" <<< then what are they? less?
18:19:56 <Sgeo> oklopol, lists are pain
18:20:04 <Sgeo> I have no clue
18:20:23 <Sgeo> How would you get 5 from the list [5] ?
18:20:26 <fizzie> The most ludicruous thing is how the law's written; it's not a "fee to be paid if you watch TV"; it's "fee to be paid if you're capable of receiving TV broadcasts, even over IPTV or something"; by a strict interpretation, everyone with a computer (read: everyone) in the student apartments of our university should be paying it, since TV channels are multicasted over the LAN there.
18:20:34 <ehird> http://www.lennonmurdertruth.com/footnotes.asp?id=85
18:20:36 <ehird> " Stephen King Shot John Lennon"
18:20:43 <ehird> fizzie: that's what it is in ze UK
18:20:48 <Sgeo> oklopol, what do you think the syntax is?
18:20:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:20:53 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it's the way things are done.
18:21:04 <AnMaster> ehird, Sweden have TV licenses too. Used to fund public service TV/radio
18:21:08 <ehird> 18:20 Sgeo: How would you get 5 from the list [5] ?
18:21:18 <Sgeo> ehird, guess the syntax
18:21:20 <fizzie> Oh, and if you accidentally buy a DVB-H-capable mobile phone, you're stuck paying that fee for as long as you have it.
18:21:32 <oklopol> Sgeo: "5 of my lsit to get [[[my lisst name is X]]" where X is the list
18:21:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, a mobile phone with TV capability?
18:21:55 <GregorR> There are no ads on these publicly-funded TV services, right?
18:22:00 <Sgeo> [5][0] is wrong
18:22:12 <Sgeo> Instead, you have to do:
18:22:12 <AnMaster> GregorR, no ads here in Sweden at least on them.
18:22:19 <Sgeo> llList2Integer([5], 0)
18:22:27 <ais523> oh, is that second life language?
18:22:39 <ais523> that looks pretty awful
18:22:53 <oklopol> "...by a strict interpretation, everyone with a computer (read: everyone) in the student apartments of our university should be paying it, since TV channels are multicasted over the LAN there." <<< i read somewhere that that's the official interpretation.
18:23:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, and they also do stuff like news in minority languages and such that none of the commercial channels would want to spend money on.
18:23:10 <ais523_> in the UK, pretty much everyone pays the TV license
18:23:32 <GregorR> AnMaster: BTW, I'm surrounded by Swedish people all day, it's freaky :P
18:23:32 <fizzie> oklopol: Sure, I guess it's the only reasonable interpretation of how it's written. It doesn't look like it's having any effect, though.
18:23:36 <oklopol> that you're supposed to start paying tv license if you have a computer, even if you don't have the software to view tv on your computer.
18:23:50 <oklopol> because that's considered so easy to remove after usage
18:23:56 <ehird> er not all comps can recv tv
18:23:59 <ehird> only ones with a tv cardy
18:24:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, Well so am I. But I live in Sweden. I forgot where you were from
18:24:02 <Sgeo> Oh, and there's an llGetObjectDetails(), which is nice, but no llGetObjectDetail(), which means that to get something like another object's position, I have to use lists
18:24:16 <fizzie> ehird: They multicast TV channels via UDP at the student apartments. Context, man.
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18:24:28 <oklopol> Sgeo: anyway you didn't actually answer
18:24:30 <ehird> 18:23 oklopol: that you're supposed to start paying tv license if you have a computer, even if you don't have the software to view tv on your computer.
18:24:32 <ehird> he removed the ctx
18:24:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, what has ConTeXt got to do with this?....
18:24:39 <oklopol> what are the ordos if not O(N)?
18:24:45 <GregorR> AnMaster: I'm in the If-English-Was-Good-Enough-For-Jesus-It's-Good-Enough-For-Texas States of America.
18:24:55 <Sgeo> To get a position of an object in a sim if I know its key:
18:25:05 <oklopol> fizzie: well actually i'm referring to yle starting to broadcast something on their page
18:25:12 <oklopol> applying to everyone in finland
18:25:13 <Sgeo> llList2Vector(llGetObjectDetails(objects_key, [OBJECT_POS]), 0)
18:25:18 <oklopol> but i don't know if that was realized.
18:25:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, Except Jesus didn't speak English. So that doesn't make any sense.
18:25:49 <Sgeo> oklopol, what was the question? I think I responded "I don't know" to something
18:25:51 <fizzie> oklopol: Oh. Well, that... do they actually do real-time "direct" broadcasting there?
18:25:51 <AnMaster> if Jesus even existed. Which I frankly doesn't care about.
18:26:02 <GregorR> AnMaster: I'm quoting a 19th century Texan governor :P
18:26:02 <oklopol> Sgeo: oh. well you were listed as an author.
18:26:17 <oklopol> fizzie: supposedly they were going to, something about olympics or similar dunno
18:26:26 <oklopol> something about sports anyway
18:26:54 <Sgeo> I pointed to the wiki and mentioned some of those points
18:26:59 <GregorR> andreou: But I think that that phrase succinctly sums up all the stupid things people think about the USA :P
18:27:00 <Sgeo> The others brought up other points
18:27:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you miss that pun or just ignored it?
18:27:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: Just ignored; I'm not sure how I should've reacted, really.
18:27:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you never heard of ConTeXt before?
18:27:54 <pikhq> andreou: Combine with the people who think that only the Kings James Bible is accurate.
18:28:02 <AnMaster> iirc it is included in TeXLive too
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18:28:10 <pikhq> Yes, more accurate than the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.
18:28:18 <GregorR> Those people are sooooooooo retarded.
18:28:19 <pikhq> No, I don't know how that works.
18:28:26 <ehird> USE: tools.scaffold
18:28:26 <ehird> "resource:work" "reversi" scaffold-vocab
18:28:51 <GregorR> AnMaster: But I think that that phrase succinctly sums up all the stupid things people think about the USA :P (was misdirected to andreou)
18:29:00 <AnMaster> ehird, what language is this? Also I think you should use tools.screwdriver instead
18:29:18 <GregorR> Is "la la la" actually part of the language?
18:29:19 <pikhq> andreou: Enjoy misdirected messages much?
18:29:25 <ehird> that creates the basic vocabulary directory structure in (factor)/work/reversi/
18:29:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, the name does sound familiar, so I guess I've heard of it; never used, though.
18:29:41 <ehird> : la ( -- ) "la" print ;
18:29:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://wiki.contextgarden.net/
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18:30:41 <ehird> 18:25 AnMaster: GregorR, Except Jesus didn't speak English. So that doesn't make any sense.
18:30:44 -!- neldoreth has joined.
18:30:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, never used it either in fact, since after reading about it I found LaTeX was better for the tasks I usually do.
18:31:17 -!- neldoreth has quit (Client Quit).
18:31:20 <ehird> omg context is even more typographical than latex?
18:31:20 <AnMaster> ehird, that was ages ago. Do try track the current convo.
18:31:24 -!- neldoreth has joined.
18:31:41 <GregorR> Error 375: Conversation untraceable.
18:32:15 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc it was more about "let user decide design" and latex is more about "let user concentrate on the text and make the computer handle the design instead"
18:32:27 <ehird> right right, awesome
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18:32:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well I prefer to just get on with the text rather than spending lots of time on layout.
18:33:18 <AnMaster> ehird, layout is not very useful if there is no text to put in the layout.
18:33:23 <GregorR> My grad student sensibilities tell me that LaTeX is the only acceptable system :P
18:33:25 <oklopol> grrr, looked ages for something andreou had said, get better clients
18:33:30 <AnMaster> Oh wait there is always Lorem Ipsum (sp?)
18:33:35 <ehird> mahn you just suck AnMaster
18:33:57 <oklopol> ehird: mistakes were made.
18:34:02 <GregorR> ehird: Apparently, clients supporting tab-completion suck :P
18:34:14 <GregorR> ehird: Either that, or the clients should be psychic *shrugs*
18:34:17 <AnMaster> ehird, on the other hand, all of this is wasted if the colours aren't properly calibrated in all parts of the production!
18:34:27 <pikhq> GregorR: Does that mean I've had grad student sensibilities since high school?
18:34:52 <GregorR> pikhq: There are other grad student sensibilities :P
18:34:56 <ehird> pikhq: dude. context sounds awsum!
18:35:30 <AnMaster> latex is better for my actual needs...
18:35:43 <GregorR> pikhq: Sorry, I've already said to much, if they find me they'll kick me out of the grad student cabal.
18:35:58 <AnMaster> hm that ends up weird if you don't know it is about TeX
18:36:31 <oklopol> GregorR: no sensible client would tab complete someone who's last talked about 4 years ago.
18:36:42 <pikhq> I need to know, man! I get mistaken for a grad student without knowing why!
18:36:43 <AnMaster> * [andreou] idle 506:15:26, signon: Sat Mar 28 10:09:49
18:36:50 <ehird> ha, Factor starts all new projects with a BSD license
18:36:51 <Deewiant> ehird: What's the deal with Factor wanting to put stuff in its own subdirectory
18:37:04 <ehird> Deewiant: it's in the load path
18:37:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:37:22 <ehird> Deewiant: And factor _is_ a working tre
18:37:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, is this about the license?
18:37:26 <ehird> you don't install it
18:37:29 <GregorR> AnMaster: Sure, why not :P
18:37:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Yeah, so I don't get why it's like that.
18:37:48 <oklopol> GregorR: i have to blame *someone* for failing to see why you highlighted andreou; clearly the only options are you and your client.
18:37:53 <ehird> Deewiant: If you used factor you prolly would.
18:37:59 <ehird> GregorR: it's BSD2 http://factorcode.org/license.txt
18:38:11 <GregorR> ehird: That was called a joke :P
18:38:37 <oklopol> AnMaster: to be as blunt as you, that was the joke.
18:39:03 <ehird> This line signifies that your source contains ; characters.
18:39:11 <Deewiant> ehird: I tried yesterday but got annoyed by a combination of the GUI-reliance, weird development practices which weren't obviously explained, lack of docs, and lack of anything interesting to do with it
18:39:23 <ehird> Deewiant: It is not GUI reliant.
18:39:31 <ehird> I see no weird development practices.
18:39:34 <ehird> The docs are comprehensive.
18:39:52 <oklopol> ehird: because factor is a stack language, Deewiant told the most important reason first
18:39:54 <Deewiant> Docs as in something other than a vocab listing
18:40:02 <ehird> Deewiant: er are you blind
18:40:23 <ehird> Deewiant: here's two pages of actual documentation:
18:40:34 <oklopol> GregorR: seriously fix your client, my words are getting all mixed up.
18:40:39 <Deewiant> ehird: As for the GUI, I mean the default UI listener, I actually tried to google for a way of doing stuff on the CUI and failed, maybe I was just too tired
18:40:58 * AnMaster notes ICC intrinsic function names makes a lot less sense than GCC ones
18:40:59 <Deewiant> (listener, or whatever it's called)
18:41:00 <ehird> Deewiant: The UI _is_ nice to use and helps a lot, but it is in no way reliant
18:41:19 <ehird> there are actual documentation pages
18:41:23 <Deewiant> ehird: Where's the compiler executable
18:41:26 * pikhq notes that ICC is terrible at optimising for his platform
18:41:32 <ehird> Deewiant: It is not a batch-mode language.
18:41:36 <GregorR> pikhq: Is your platform AMD? :P
18:41:46 <pikhq> GregorR: Why, yes, it is.
18:42:06 <GregorR> I'm surprised icc even runs on AMD :P
18:42:09 <pikhq> I've been running AMD processors since, hell, the K6 days.
18:42:25 <Deewiant> ehird: Right, so what's this I hear about it compiling to efficient code etc. :-P Is it just a JIT?
18:42:35 <AnMaster> __builtin_ia32_movntps (GCC) _mm_stream_ps (ICC). I fail to see how _mm_stream_ps captures the "non-temporal" bit in "move non-temporal packed single precision floating point" which is what movntps means.
18:42:35 <pikhq> ICC is designed to turn off optimisation when the compiled code is *running* on an AMD.
18:42:37 <ehird> Deewiant: Native code != compile-pray-debug.
18:42:50 <ehird> Deewiant: Perhaps you should learn a good lisp to familiarize yourself with this concept.
18:42:54 <GregorR> TOO MUCH CONVERSATION *leaves*
18:42:56 <Deewiant> ehird: Native code == standalone executable in my eyes.
18:43:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Your eyes are full of bullshit.
18:43:07 <Sgeo> I know a language worse than LSL
18:43:09 <ais523_> there are systems which can compile to either bytecode or native code
18:43:18 <Deewiant> ehird: I'm asking you because I obviously don't know shit, isn't that obvious?
18:43:28 <ais523_> normally the bytecode's used for the REPL and for porting, the native code for massive speed on one arch
18:43:29 <ehird> It compiles to native code.
18:43:29 <Deewiant> Double obvious there means it must be obvious
18:43:29 <oklopol> "In QuakeC with FTE extensions, accessing the n-th list element of an array is O(log n). Can't get any worse than that."
18:43:42 <AnMaster> I just prefer my code to work well on all compilers.
18:43:51 <ais523_> oklopol: there are list representation structures which are O(log n) for all operations
18:43:57 <ais523_> rather than O(1) for some and O(n) for others
18:44:00 <ais523_> maybe they use one of those
18:44:11 <ais523_> it's not necessarily an insane choice
18:44:16 <AnMaster> and ICC claims to be gcc yet fails on GCC intrinsics.
18:44:32 <ais523_> wow, Chris Pressey was editing Esolang
18:44:46 <Deewiant> ehird: So what is the end result of the compilation, if not a native executable? Something for which you need Factor to run?
18:45:01 <ehird> Deewiant: an .image file, which is a cache from compiled code.
18:45:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: ICC sucks horribly, doesn't it?
18:45:12 <ehird> You could probably do an unholy executable-bundling, if you are determined to be in the 90s.
18:45:16 <Deewiant> And what does one do with such an .image file
18:45:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about a file with native code which needs to be loaded into a runtime?
18:45:20 <oklopol> ais523: you mean kinda like a tree
18:45:23 <pikhq> Now, if ICC actually implemented GNU C...
18:45:29 <oklopol> i'm just lolling at "can't get worse than that"
18:45:31 <Deewiant> Or load it and do stuff with exported verbs, whatever
18:45:32 <GregorR> ICC actually implements loads of GNU C.
18:45:39 <GregorR> You just happen to be stepping on the bits it doesn't.
18:45:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, actually ICC works quite ok on my old pentium 3 box
18:45:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Load it with factor(1).
18:45:45 <oklopol> O(log n) is pretty much O(1) with an academic hat
18:45:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Read the 'or actually no'
18:45:54 <AnMaster> the issue is it defines __GNUC__ without being able to compile code using GCC extensions.
18:45:56 <ehird> Although you should just distribute source, really.
18:46:02 <ehird> an .image is a cache of compiled code
18:46:02 <GregorR> <oklopol> O(log n) is pretty much O(1) with an academic hat // lawl, silly but true
18:46:07 <ehird> b was the first ever letter to be created, but unfortunatley everyone thought it was A as it looked more pointy than B
18:46:08 <ehird> β http://esolangs.org/wiki/B
18:46:13 <ehird> ais523_: please don't delete it
18:46:18 <GregorR> <AnMaster> the issue is it defines __GNUC__ without being able to compile code using GCC extensions. // but it supports /many/ GCC extensions, just not /all/ of them.
18:46:41 <GregorR> It supports, e.g., GCC's asm syntax and computed gotos.
18:46:52 <Deewiant> ehird: So it basically JITs but supports caching the code for speed?
18:47:09 <ehird> Deewiant: Sort of. It doesn't do anything just in time.
18:47:14 <ehird> Loading a file compiles it. Simple as.
18:47:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, then it shouldn't define __GNUC__ still. How are programmers then supposed to be able to know if the compiler supports a specific feature. Sure a less coarse system would be preferable. But no such exists in C currently
18:47:31 <ehird> JITs OTOH race to compile while the code runs
18:47:49 <pikhq> C needs a versions array.
18:47:53 <AnMaster> something like #ifdef __EXT_GNUC_INTRINSIC_IA32_MOVNTPS
18:47:59 <GregorR> AnMaster: Making the decision mostly arbitrary. I think they're more interested in making a large chunk of code run faster and failing on a small amount of code than in making all code compile and run no faster.
18:49:04 <Deewiant> Well, I guess that somewhat explains the 'weird development practices' too, i.e. keeping code in factor/work instead of wherever.
18:49:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, how does supporting these intrinsics make the code slower? it is just really a 1-to-1 mapping of names for the intrinsics...
18:49:37 <GregorR> ................... wtf? You totally misinterpreted that statement.
18:49:51 <AnMaster> GregorR, what did you mean then
18:49:55 <Deewiant> GregorR: It's AnMaster, that's not a wtf.
18:49:57 <ehird> Deewiant: You can keep it wherever. It's just less convenient.
18:50:08 <ehird> Deewiant: You could also ln -s ~/src/bigbutts ~/factor/work
18:50:09 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, I know, it just seems weird to me.
18:50:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: Feature from D.
18:50:31 <ehird> factor is a bit odd :)
18:50:37 <GregorR> AnMaster: They define __GNUC__ so that they will properly take advantage of the GCC extensions they /do/ support, and since they're faster on Intel than GCC is, supporting the same extensions that will often increase speed, they will be faster than GCC. If they don't set __GNUC__, code will fall into an #else, using slower code, and the best they can hope for is to be as good as GCC.
18:50:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah interesting. How does it work?
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18:50:46 <Deewiant> Having the default be to build your projects next to the compiler is certainly odd to my eyes. :-P
18:51:17 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, the stdlib and all are completely malleable.
18:51:20 <Deewiant> As for docs, I guess I was looking for something like the 'Factor cookbook' which appears to be at the very top of the docs.
18:51:27 <ehird> Deewiant: It all goes in one place because you can change it all
18:51:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, yes but they end up causing users to report bugs to projects with such code, bugs that should be reported to intel instead.
18:51:44 <ehird> e.g. I added a thing to make unix signal names printed with the error
18:51:56 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, that sucks, but do you think Intel cares? :P
18:52:00 <pikhq> IIRC, something like static if versions("some feature") foo; else bar;
18:52:01 <ehird> and it got into the core repository; all from within one workspace
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18:52:09 <AnMaster> GregorR, and forced me into a complex maze of #ifs
18:52:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, sounds like a great feature
18:52:35 <pikhq> Does Intel define something like __ICC__?
18:52:37 <oklopol> "sigh", "meh", i should find something like these
18:52:45 <Deewiant> ehird: Err, how is that different from editing any other compiler or stdlib and getting it into the main VCS?
18:52:55 <oklopol> well okay i say blah sometimes.
18:53:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Because it applied only to that workspace, and I simply edited it as part of the workspace.
18:53:04 <fizzie> oklopol: "seh" or "migh"; hybridization!
18:53:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, but clang defines __GNUC__ and __clang__
18:53:07 <ehird> No system-wide installation.
18:53:19 <AnMaster> so I need a lot of checks for "claims to be gcc but really isn't"
18:53:26 <pikhq> Which is bullshit.
18:53:31 <Deewiant> ehird: So it's like the so-called 'monkey-patching'?
18:53:37 <fizzie> oklopol: There's also "pleugh"; but I've seen that used.
18:53:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Not rly imo.
18:53:39 <GregorR> AnMaster: The worst part is there is no is-actually-GCC macro, only supports-GNU-C-extensions.
18:53:51 <ehird> Deewiant: I can't explain it properly, kay?
18:54:07 <Deewiant> ehird: Do you know of something which can? :-P
18:54:14 <AnMaster> GregorR, yes. I have some stuff to detect gcc, clang and icc. But apart from that...
18:54:17 <ehird> Prolly not. Gotta use it to understand it.
18:54:20 <Deewiant> Or give me example code, alternatively
18:54:24 <ehird> Try the IRC channel.
18:54:33 <ehird> They can explain much better than my shitty attempts
18:54:57 <pikhq> I vote that compilers that claim to be GCC should get bug reports for everything that they don't support that's part of GNU C.
18:55:13 <AnMaster> GregorR, and then there is subtle stuff like icc fail at *some* gcc inline asm.
18:55:47 <AnMaster> just have to find out where intel's bug tracker is.
18:57:15 <ehird> 18:56 erg: ehird: does it matter? if you release it under the bsd license i dont think it matters who the copyright holder is (?)
18:57:30 <ehird> Sometimes I forget that people don't understand copyright law/licenses.
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18:57:45 <ais523_> it almost doesn't matter, except when the time comes to sue people
18:57:57 <ais523_> the licence itself doesn't much care, but the legal system does
18:58:54 <GregorR> "When the time comes to sue people" X-D
18:58:59 <ehird> 18:58 erg: suing someone for violating the bsd license? is there any practical benefit to this?
18:59:02 <GregorR> Looks like it's suein' time!
18:59:42 <ais523_> well, they might be using it without attribution
18:59:55 <ais523_> or claiming their modified version was your original
19:00:16 <ais523_> or hiding the fact that the software was BSD-licenced, or derived from that
19:00:21 <ais523_> IIRC, those are the only three conditions in BSD
19:00:29 <Sgeo> Jnaqn unf gur nexracyvref! (Be ng yrnfg, gung'f jung vg ybbxf yvxr)
19:00:33 <ais523_> there's the obnoxious advertising clause too
19:00:45 <ais523_> ehird: BSD2 doesn't have the prohibition against claiming a modified version is the original
19:00:49 <Sgeo> ehird, not saying =P
19:01:03 <Sgeo> Why not risk it?
19:01:11 <ehird> cuz you're probably being a jerk
19:01:22 <ehird> ais523_: I was wondering about http://factorcode.org/license.txt, which sez "Copyright (C) 2003, 2009 Slava Pestov and friends.", and yet every vocab in factor by default says ! See http://factorcode.org/license.txt for BSD license.; i jokingly asked whether this counted as copyright assignment
19:01:27 <Sgeo> ehird, I don't know what you want and don't want spoiled, so how can I be being a jerk?
19:01:29 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:01:35 <ehird> Sgeo: what is the spoiler for
19:01:45 <Sgeo> The latest Erfworld
19:02:32 <ais523> ehird: same website as order of the stick, but a different author
19:02:35 <ais523> I don't read it, but I know of it
19:02:37 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal").
19:02:42 <ehird> probably crap then
19:06:28 -!- neldoreth has joined.
19:12:45 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
19:16:34 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:18:04 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal").
19:18:18 <ehird> http://imgur.com/CAqN.jpg
19:21:23 <Sgeo> ehird, you can't tell me that http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0148.html then http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0150.html isn't awesome
19:22:28 <Sgeo> ehird, are you at least going to look at them?
19:24:58 <ehird> enlightenment 0.17
19:25:20 * Sgeo is waiting for Freenet 0.8.0
19:25:30 <Sgeo> I might actually put some stuff on Freenet when it comes out
19:26:22 <Sgeo> Why "lol freenet!"?
19:28:26 <ehird> http://tinyarro.ws/
19:28:29 <ehird> they haev like 70 domains now
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19:36:01 <GregorR-L> I see that #esoteric is incapable of conversation when I'm not here.
19:36:37 <pikhq> Why, yes. You're a catalyst.
19:38:11 <lament> haha the word "screw" is also not allowed in comments
19:38:11 <GregorR-L> So, I'm hoping that Oracle takes MySQL and turns it into a proprietary enterprise-class database engine. That would be awesome.
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19:43:01 <fizzie> Maybe they'll just discontinue existing MySQL and Oracle products and start to market a bizarre hybrid MyOracle. That would also be awesomely strange.
19:43:42 * Sgeo imagines ways to obliterate SL
19:44:59 <AnMaster> hm yeah, I wonder what happens to SPARC in the future. And Solaris.
19:45:13 <AnMaster> Didn't Oracle make their own linux distro before?
19:45:18 <AnMaster> what will happen to that now hm-.
19:45:41 <fizzie> Yes, something enterprise-red-hat-based.
19:48:48 <fizzie> They also have a Xen-based "Oracle VM" virtualization thing.
19:50:20 <fizzie> And Apache-based "Oracle HTTP Server", heh. Clearly they like the sound of their own name.
19:51:55 <Sgeo> Stupid blue(I think) @
19:53:18 <Sgeo> Isn't the Oracle a blue @?
19:53:32 <ehird> ...........Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahno.
19:54:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:55:01 <Sgeo> Then what color is the oracle?
19:55:10 <ehird> Oh. You mean nethack.
19:55:19 <ehird> Congratulations, you're so clever you can reference things.
19:56:22 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
19:56:26 <fizzie> fungot: Say something oracular?
19:56:26 <fungot> fizzie: goblin: now issek of the slimy creatures scurried out. the wizard jumped back, squeezing and contorting with great dignity, only gray. in the dark.
19:57:01 <fizzie> They should replace the standard oracle wisdom with this stuff. At least when you are hallucinating.
19:58:29 <fizzie> fungot: Incidentally, what do *you* think of Oracle buying Sun?
19:58:46 <fizzie> That was... very deep.
20:01:24 <ehird> "approved the acquisition of Sun Microsystems by the Oracle Corporation for $9.50/share in cash"
20:01:28 <ehird> That's a bit cheap innit
20:03:15 <pikhq> I'm sure IBM could pay more than that.
20:03:40 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:12:10 <ehird> "They'll keep cyclic references to each other around so they can exist forever in the memory void long after no one else is pointing at them."
20:12:13 <ehird> Garbage collection fail.
20:13:00 -!- tombom_ has joined.
20:13:52 <lament> in other words, true love is immortal
20:28:44 <Deewiant> Hmm, looks like factoring an integer with over 300000 digits isn't quite doable.
20:29:49 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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20:30:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> Oh. You mean nethack. <ehird> Congratulations, you're so clever you can reference things. <-- Congratulations, you are so calm you get sarcastic whenever you don't understand a reference.
20:30:45 <ehird> References are not funny unless exceptionally clever.
20:31:25 <AnMaster> ehird, what has that got to do with it
20:31:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it has everything to do with it
20:32:26 <AnMaster> I disagree, references doesn't have to be funny. Though this one was.
20:33:15 <Deewiant> 4884738 digits to be exact. Meh.
20:34:14 <ehird> Deewiant: you don't say :P
20:34:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: Who knows, you might get lucky.
20:35:18 <fizzie> Are you sure it's not prime?-)
20:36:05 <ehird> Deewiant: the factors are $the_number and one.
20:36:25 <Deewiant> That's some of the factors, not all of them.
20:36:35 <Deewiant> As it happens I only care about the prime ones.
20:37:04 <fizzie> Well, 2 and 5. Do I get any money for that?
20:37:20 <fizzie> Are you sure you really need more factors?
20:37:25 <Deewiant> No money was ever on offer, and no, you don't. :-P
20:37:39 <fizzie> There was an implicit promise of money.
20:37:40 <Sgeo> Bye for now all
20:37:54 <Deewiant> I don't need anything, but the guys at Project Euler seem to want them all.
20:38:04 <AnMaster> icc's static analysis feature fails badly. It thinks a pointer may be NULL in if (mypointer) { somevar = *mypointer; } But if you change that condition to mypointer != NULL it accepts it as non-NULL...
20:38:15 <Deewiant> And I say 'meh' because I can't be bothered to think this through though it seems quite trivial.
20:38:23 <ehird> "roll ( x y z t -- y z t x )"
20:38:27 <ehird> Most useful word evar.
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20:38:45 <Deewiant> Why does "roll" roll 4 in particular
20:38:59 <ehird> Deewiant: Because...
20:39:02 <ehird> ...that's just how it rolls.
20:39:07 <ehird> YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
20:39:18 <ais523> grr, KDE is annoying me as always
20:39:23 <Deewiant> To me it seems more obvious that it'd roll 3.
20:39:25 <ais523> I haven't taken the time to set it up properly yet
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20:39:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's "swap" when it does 2, "rot" for 3, and "roll" for 4.
20:40:01 <ehird> : roll ( x y z t -- y z t x ) [ rot ] dip swap ; inline
20:40:08 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> icc's static analysis feature fails badly. It thinks a pointer may be NULL in if (mypointer) { somevar = *mypointer; } But if you change that condition to mypointer != NULL it accepts it as non-NULL...
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20:40:25 <ehird> AnMaster: NULL does not have to be 0, right?
20:40:28 -!- nel has changed nick to neld.
20:40:28 <ehird> I know 0 has to be a null pointer
20:40:29 <AnMaster> ais523, the same happens for ! vs != NULL
20:40:35 <ehird> but NULL does not have to be 0
20:40:46 <ais523> ehird: correct, there's a weird hack where an integer constant 0 that's cast explicitly or implicitly to a pointer becomes a NULL
20:40:54 <ais523> which is strange, as an integer expression 0 doesn't
20:40:56 <ehird> then 4 is a null pointer too
20:40:58 <ehird> so mypointer is true
20:41:00 <ehird> but it's a null pointer
20:41:06 <ais523> null pointers are always false
20:41:06 <Deewiant> But isn't 'if (ptr)' guaranteed to be the same as 'if (ptr != NULL)'
20:41:14 <ais523> when evaluated as booleans
20:41:14 <ehird> ais523: so if NULL is 4, 4 is false?
20:41:20 <ehird> that's so fucked up
20:41:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that's what I thought too
20:41:25 <ais523> ehird: if NULL is 4, (int) 4 is true, but (void*)4 is false
20:41:26 <Deewiant> ehird: As a boolean pointer :-P
20:41:29 <ais523> it's all in the data types
20:41:34 <ehird> ais523: that's brilliant
20:41:44 <pikhq> This is why C++ is getting the null_ptr type. ;p
20:41:48 <Deewiant> Fortunately NULL is 0 on all sensible platforms.
20:42:07 <AnMaster> also it have issues with functions returning a struct on the stack. As in return (struct mystruct) { .x = blah, .y = foo };
20:42:46 <AnMaster> when you assign the return value of that function to a variable of type struct mystruct it thinks x and y may be uninitialized
20:42:51 <pikhq> Which is, of course, perfectly valid, if a bit odd-looking.
20:43:23 <ais523> hey, in theory a C compiler's allowed to do garbage collection
20:43:33 <ais523> there are enough restrictions on using pointers that it's theoretically possible to implement
20:43:38 <ais523> I'm not sure if anyone ever tried, though
20:43:47 <AnMaster> oh and it is fucked up when thinks foo = malloc(...); if (!foo) return NULL; foo->bar = malloc(...); if (!foo->bar) { free(foo); return NULL; } can leak foo->bar
20:44:01 <ehird> AnMaster: dude it's not a halting checker
20:44:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but that function is trivial, there is just a return foo at the end
20:44:31 <AnMaster> so why does it claim it proved that foo->bar leaked
20:44:37 <AnMaster> "possible leak" I might accept
20:45:04 <pikhq> Because Intel is over-confident in their ability to solve the halting problem.
20:45:17 -!- neld has left (?).
20:46:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, and it is trivial to detect that if foo isn't leaked then foo->bar isn't either. I mean the function is trivial and it apparently knows malloc() allocates memory, so knowing that malloc() returning NULL == no memory allocated seems, um, trivial.
20:46:26 <AnMaster> because it claims the memory is lost at the line saying free(foo) there
20:46:53 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Which is, of course, perfectly valid, if a bit odd-looking. <-- did you mean the return struct on stack?
20:47:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, astyle fucks up on that btw. But since the syntax is C99 one...
20:50:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is rather efficient too I think. Well assuming x86_64 being used.
20:50:21 <AnMaster> not worse than any of the alternative ways of doing it at least.
20:50:27 <AnMaster> not sure about 32-bit x86 here
20:52:45 <AnMaster> ok that static analyser is even more fucked up, it thinks !var for a var of type int; doesn't imply the variable is in fact 0...
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20:55:10 <Deewiant> Of course it doesn't, what if the var was 0 beforehand
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20:55:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um I mean as in if(!var)
20:57:33 <pikhq> But what if 1 is false and 0 is true?
20:58:07 <AnMaster> true and false are defined to 1 and 0 in stdbool.h
20:58:24 <AnMaster> you can't redefine 1 and 0 themselves.
20:58:39 <AnMaster> and redefining true and false won't change how if works
20:59:00 <AnMaster> if operates on 1 and 0, not the defines true and false
20:59:17 <Deewiant> The point was exactly not about stdbool.h
20:59:44 <Deewiant> He meant 'true' as in 'the value x for which if (x) { foo; } executes foo'
20:59:53 <Deewiant> Not 'true' as in 'the _Bool defined in stdbool.h'
21:00:13 <AnMaster> that is defined to work as if 0 is false and 1 is true by the standard afaik.
21:00:34 <Deewiant> Yes, that's what I thought as well and he said he knew.
21:00:36 <AnMaster> I guess I misinterpreted it because the interpretation you suggest made even less sense.
21:00:44 <fizzie> You can, however, #define TRUE 0 and FALSE 1, and then just be very careful in comparing them like "x == TRUE" -- maybe with some macros like #define AND(a,b) (((a) == TRUE) && ((b) == TRUE) ? TRUE : FALSE) -- if you intend to confuse people.
21:01:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, sure, but that doesn't really matter for this static code analyzer, since it analyses after the preprocessor has been run as far as I understood the icc documentation.
21:03:02 <Deewiant> Yay: it seems that CCBI2 is, in fact, in such a state that I don't need to re-figure out what I was doing if the compiler bug it's blocked on gets fixed. I.e. if the bug is fixed it should compile (or fail due to a different problem).
21:03:17 <Deewiant> I thought I had left it in such a state that I'd have no idea what I was doing.
21:03:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't you just code it a different way to work around said compiler bug?
21:04:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or maybe submit a patch for the compiler?
21:04:13 <Deewiant> No, I can't, or I'd have done that, oh... 8 months? ago.
21:04:33 <AnMaster> maybe that is why it hasn't been fixed.
21:04:51 <ehird> ah, I just reminded myself how cool forth is
21:04:56 <ehird> : twice: r> dup call call ;
21:04:57 <Deewiant> Perhaps. But of course it's much more nontrivial for me, knowing nothing about the compiler internals.
21:04:58 <ehird> : quadruple twice: dup + ;
21:05:03 <ehird> syntax without syntax ftw
21:05:23 <AnMaster> ehird, is it cooler than factor?
21:05:29 <ehird> Deewiant: return stack
21:05:43 <ehird> r> pops return stack, puts on regular stack
21:05:48 <ehird> >r pops regular stack, puts on return stack
21:05:58 <ehird> AnMaster: different niches
21:06:04 <ehird> forth is fun to look at and embedded stuff
21:06:10 <ehird> and is really elegant and minimal
21:06:11 <ehird> factor is fun to use
21:06:32 <AnMaster> ehird, btw the final stage of the freebsd bootloader is partly written in FORTH it seems.
21:06:55 <ehird> AnMaster: and powerpc macs's "BIOS" was written in forth
21:07:16 <AnMaster> OpenFirmware was the name iirc
21:07:19 <ehird> it served the purpose of PCs's BIOS
21:07:32 <ehird> probably the easiest way to get a programming shell on any computer
21:07:36 <ehird> press power button, hold down key, voila, forth
21:07:58 <ehird> default input format for numbers was in hex :-)
21:08:01 <AnMaster> ehird, before the G3 generation they didn't have such firmwares iirc
21:08:22 <AnMaster> they used some other format then
21:08:33 <ehird> I recall it's a bit older.
21:08:40 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it might have been a bit before that
21:08:40 <fizzie> OpenFirmware's also used in Sun stuff.
21:09:05 <ehird> Gah, laggy lagson. Harddrive krrrrrr.
21:09:12 <fizzie> My SparcStation 5 had an OpenFirmware ROM. Very nicey.
21:09:13 <ehird> Need SSD + lotsa ram quickah ;_;
21:09:17 <AnMaster> ehird, but I'm pretty sure that old PowerPC Performa didn't use OpenFirmware, I tried that key combo used to enter the openfirmware thing on it and it did nothing
21:10:13 <AnMaster> Alt-Cmd-P-R or something? Or was that the one to reset mouse speed setting (and other stuff in PRAM)? It was so long ago I used a mac last...
21:11:30 <AnMaster> was the p-r one for the pram reset then?
21:12:07 <fizzie> All the PCI-based PowerMacs should be Open Firmware things. The NuBus boxes are different.
21:13:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes that performa was nubus based
21:14:56 <AnMaster> I think that "press del to access settings" is way easier to use than having to remember lots of odd semi-documented key combos to hold down during boot
21:15:33 <AnMaster> of course the boot process looks a lot nicer if you don't display a "press <key> for settings" message or similar
21:16:08 <AnMaster> I mean, small happy mac is a lot nicer of course.
21:16:32 <AnMaster> especially when it is so small that it is hard to see what it is supposed to look like.
21:16:58 <AnMaster> that happened on some later macs that had the original icon designed for screens with way lower DPI
21:17:15 <fizzie> I remember that running Linux on the Performa box was a bit untrivial; had to use that messy Apple MkLinux boot loader.
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21:19:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, never tried linux on it.
21:20:22 <fizzie> Well, it was a bit iffy. I gather MkLinux used to work "better" in the sense that it was less hacky, but then they gave up on that.
21:20:56 <fizzie> MkLinux was a Linux kernel running as a server hosted on the Mach microkernel.
21:21:47 <fizzie> Never tried that; just ran Debian's normal powerpc port. But had to use the MkLinux boot loader, none of the rest worked on my particular hardware.
21:24:00 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
21:25:18 <fizzie> Not too much activity going on in mklinux.org; the most recent post in the "news" section is from 12 March 2007 about a time zone datafile update, and the one before that is from 11 August 2002
21:26:57 <fizzie> Oh well. The box certainly worked well enough for IRC use.
21:28:35 <fizzie> I had it (in OS 7.5.5, with Ircle) read out loud IRC chatter for a couple of hours with the MacOS-bundled speech synthesizer, almost drove me crazy.
21:28:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc those performa had a crazy system bus architecture, meaning they had bad network performance.
21:29:08 <AnMaster> you linked me to some page about it some time ago
21:29:49 <fizzie> Something on lowendmac.com, I think.
21:30:21 <fizzie> Yes, it certainly wasn't a fast machine.
21:43:24 <fizzie> "Because of their unusual architecture, installing a 25-pin SCSI terminator to the SCSI port will improve network stability." β That is a very representative bit.
21:43:24 <fizzie> I think I even had a lot of memory in it, something like 32-48 megabytes.
21:43:24 <fizzie> And now that I think of it, I think the exact model of my "random" (hostname) was a Performa 5260: http://lowendmac.com/ppc/performa-5260-5300.html
21:47:27 <ehird> : xor if if false else true then else if true else false then ;
21:48:05 <fizzie> Heh, forth's if-else-then structure is refreshingly different.
21:48:24 <ais523> it's certainly hard to read for people not used to stack-based programs
21:48:28 <AnMaster> the nesting doesn't make sense?
21:48:32 <ais523> I'm used to Underload, but it doesn't have an if-then-else quite like that
21:48:55 <fizzie> It's "[test] if [true-branch] else [false-branch] then", mostly... "if" pops from the stack and then executes either one of the branches.
21:49:31 <ehird> ColorForth-style: (with "red x" = ": x" and everything else green)
21:49:33 <ehird> : xor if if false ; then true ; then if true ; then false ;
21:49:50 <ehird> (; is just return, not end-of-word, and else is eliminated since it's "IF itstrue ; THEN itsfalse")
21:49:52 <AnMaster> and it nests with the innermost one?
21:50:50 <AnMaster> ehird, this is logical xor rather than bitwise xor right
21:51:29 <ais523> bitwise xor is easy, it's "?.1$.2"~"#0$#65535"
21:53:13 <AnMaster> ais523, that is INTERCAL not FORTH
21:53:28 <ais523> so it should be trivial in FORTH
21:53:37 <AnMaster> what would bitwise xor be in FORTH then
21:53:45 <ais523> I don't know, I don't know FORTH
21:54:30 <fizzie> At least in ANSI Forth bitwise xor is the built-in "xor" word.
21:54:37 <AnMaster> wasn't that defined to the logical one just above?
21:55:09 <fizzie> Obviously if you care about the bitwise one, you don't hide it with the logical one.
21:55:27 <AnMaster> so what would a bitwise one implemented in forth look like?
22:00:12 <fizzie> "2dup and invert rot rot or and" might do it in a very inelegant way, unless you count using the other bitwise ops as cheating.
22:02:40 <fizzie> That goes like: [a b] 2dup [a b a b] and [a b a&b] invert [a b ~(a&b)] rot rot [~(a&b) a b] or [~(a&b) a|b] and [(a|b)&~(a&b)] -- and I think that final is a^b. I'm sure that's overly complicated, though.
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22:09:21 * AnMaster exploits that realloc(NULL, ...) does the same as a malloc(...) call
22:18:30 <ehird> fizzie: that has quite the duplication!
22:18:46 <ehird> : rot2 rot rot ; : myxor 2dup and invert rot2 or and ;
22:18:49 <ehird> feel free to improve further :P
22:19:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about doing it if none of the other bitwise operations have been implemented yet
22:19:20 <AnMaster> that is, implementing all the bitwise ones then
22:19:43 <AnMaster> ehird, that goes against the trend of inlining certainly ;P
22:20:41 <ehird> AnMaster: implementing all bitwise ones: you can't
22:21:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I think you can do it with arithmetic and testing?
22:23:08 <oerjan> div, mod and a lookup table...
22:23:23 <ehird> "There is no reason to use the disk at all. With megabytes of memory available you just load your data into memory and go from there. There is no need for disk."
22:23:25 <oklopol> you can implement them all if you have isZero and a dec.
22:23:29 <ehird> Ah, to be in such a simple embedded world.
22:23:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, that would work too, but you only need increment, decrement and check for null
22:24:04 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure I have seen bitwise operations implemented in brainfuck
22:24:07 <ehird> decrement = increment max times
22:24:11 <oerjan> i mean my way could at least do several bits at once
22:24:17 <ais523> gcc-bf has an implementation, I'm not sure if it works though
22:24:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that is true if overflow causes wrap
22:24:26 <ais523> the trick's to use multiplications by 128 on a wrapping system
22:24:38 <ais523> that's the fastest way I know
22:24:49 <oklopol> anyway point is of course you can write a function to do bitwise logic, the rest is just parsing the primitive number format into something more malleable
22:25:43 <oklopol> but i don't know of a way to do bitwise logic fast using arithmetic, although i guess ais523 just described something like that
22:25:58 <oklopol> fast, that is, in O(1) arithmetic operations
22:26:17 <ais523> actually, probably boolfuck > brainfuck for maths
22:26:24 <oerjan> O(1) is probably impossible
22:26:37 <ais523> O(1) is trivial if you only have finitely many possible inputs
22:26:50 <ehird> About a thousand instructions seems about right to me to do about anything. To paraphrase the old legend that any program with a thousand instructions can be written in one less. All programs should be a thousand instructions long.
22:26:52 <oklopol> ais523: it just naive brainfuck will be slower than boolfuck.
22:27:40 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:28:20 <AnMaster> ehird, 1000 high level instructions? Or machine code ones?
22:28:41 <ehird> Previous paragraph: "The i21 has four instructions per word. The Pentium has one instruction per two bytes. It is very hard to judge, you should talk in instructions instead of the size of memory in which the instructions reside."
22:29:05 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's been proven for x86 assembly, but for a few riscs the number is 1027
22:29:20 <ehird> May I offer some investment opportunities?
22:29:21 <ehird> *$1M to finish my house
22:29:32 <ehird> he's not as spartan as his language!
22:30:23 <AnMaster> meh, avoiding allocating stacks for fingerprints until needed didn't save a lot of malloc() calls in the code for t :(
22:30:44 <ehird> colorForth IDE driver (first word on each line is red, rest green):
22:30:44 <ehird> bsy 1f7 p@ 80 and if bsy ; then ;
22:30:46 <ehird> rdy 1f7 p@ 8 and if 1f0 a! 256 ; then rdy ;
22:30:48 <ehird> sector 1f3 a! swap p!+ /8 p!+ /8 p!+ /8 e0 or p!+ drop p!+ drop 4 * ;
22:30:48 <AnMaster> and then I mean the code for t that handles duplicating fingerprint stacks
22:30:50 <ehird> read 20 sector 256 for rdy insw next drop ;
22:30:52 <ehird> write bsy 30 sector 256 for rdy outsw next drop ;
22:30:56 <ehird> from http://colorforth.com/ide.html
22:31:22 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. That uses the BIOS driver, and no DMA right?
22:31:38 <ehird> AnMaster: it just reads/writes ports
22:32:47 <AnMaster> ehird, that is very suboptimal though. But I guess it depends on what you need
22:33:03 <ehird> AnMaster: That code's blazing fast anyway
22:33:18 <ehird> It would only matter if you use the disk an awful lot, which is not forthy anyway
22:33:49 <AnMaster> ehird, right. but DMA matters on a "real" OS, such as a Linux or OS X or Windows desktop
22:34:01 <ehird> AnMaster: colorForth is real.
22:34:07 <ehird> Chuck writes real programs in it and uses it.
22:34:15 <ehird> AnMaster: What you mean is not real. You mean conventional.
22:34:43 <AnMaster> ehird, when I mean real I mean something that is usable for everyday tasks, like running existing programs that I need.
22:34:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: I almost wrote "I'm not going to bother implementing it with just '2 mod' and '1 rshift' and control flow", but then I didn't even bother writing that comment. Certainly doable.
22:34:56 <ehird> Chuck runs his everyday tasks on colorForth.
22:35:12 <ehird> what you mean is conventional. Conventional OSes to run programs designed for conventional OSes in conventional ways.
22:35:26 <AnMaster> I assume he coded a TCP stack and so on for it
22:35:42 <ehird> A TCP stack would only be a few words.
22:35:54 <AnMaster> ehird, and a HTML rendering engine?
22:36:01 <ehird> AnMaster: ur doin it wrong
22:36:25 <AnMaster> oh and I also need a type setting system such as LaTeX or similar. Apart from that I guess most stuff would be doable on the forth one
22:36:45 <ehird> I think it is incredibly likely you will never understand where colorForth is coming from in your life.
22:36:47 <AnMaster> isn't it meant to replace "conventional" systems?
22:37:37 <AnMaster> I'm not saying it is a bad language. Or a bad embedded environment. I'm just saying it is far from usable as a replacement for a "normal" OS.
22:38:09 <ehird> Yeaaah, you'll never get it.
22:38:34 <AnMaster> ehird, so you are saying that it is meant to replace these "conventional" systems? Or not.
22:38:48 <AnMaster> just saying which of those would clarify it.
22:40:04 <AnMaster> so neither. Which doesn't make sense.
22:40:13 <ehird> No. Mu does not mean neither.
22:40:16 <ehird> Mu means that your question is wrong.
22:40:26 <AnMaster> then what do you say is the right question
22:40:34 <ehird> I did not say "the wrong question".
22:40:39 <ehird> I said the question is wrong.
22:40:54 <AnMaster> ehird, those seems to be the same to me.
22:40:59 <AnMaster> ehird, are you going to switch to colorforth as your primary OS?
22:41:08 <ehird> AnMaster: No. That question happens to be irrelevant.
22:41:13 <ehird> And they are not the same
22:41:31 <AnMaster> then explain what you mean I guess.
22:52:05 <oklopol> i read that as "molokok", which is funny because molo means kok in finnish, and... umm... as we all know penises are really funny.
22:52:19 <oklopol> i mean your lines together.
22:55:13 <oklopol> yay our modelling project is almost finished.
22:58:56 * ais523 misread that as yodelling to start with
22:59:01 <ais523> because of the yay earlier in the sentence
23:01:24 <oklopol> i'm going to assume you're just making fun of me and cry :'(
23:01:47 <oerjan> modelling yodelling is a fine thing
23:02:16 <oklopol> i wonder if music and probability models yodelling
23:02:33 * oerjan recalls this guy in university who did research on the acoustics of alp horns, or something like that
23:03:03 <oklopol> acoustics are boring, i was thinking about the improvisation
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23:05:46 <psygnisfive> how do i manipulate font styling with latex
23:06:28 <oklopol> i only people, with my hands.
23:06:30 * oerjan never bothered to do anything about the fonts
23:06:56 <oerjan> YOU ATE PEOPLE WITH YOUR HANDS?
23:06:59 <AnMaster> hm why does C allow statements like: foo = bar = quux = 0;
23:07:18 <oerjan> YOU DIRTY BASTARD, USE A KNIFE AND FORK!
23:07:19 <ehird> b is an expr, a is an lvalue
23:07:33 <ais523> in Perl, you can also do (a = b) = c
23:07:41 <ais523> which is kind-of useless, but legal
23:08:00 <ais523> and (a = b)++, which is more useful
23:08:05 <ais523> that sort of thing would be undef in C if it made sense
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23:08:25 <AnMaster> ais523, what would (a = b)++ do?
23:08:47 <ais523> assignments return the lvalue being assigned to
23:09:08 <pikhq> I thought assignments in C were an lvalue.
23:10:14 <oerjan> pikhq: that would mess up all that sequence point stuff
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23:11:08 <ehird> whuz 8 megabytes in 32-bits?
23:11:35 <ehird> so 8 megabytes in bytes
23:11:38 <ehird> but what about in 32s
23:12:10 <ehird> oerjan: two 32-bit ints can fit 8 megabytes?
23:12:15 <ehird> i've been doing it all wrong!
23:12:38 <oerjan> so 8 megabytes = 2 mega-32-bit-words
23:12:49 <ehird> you're not helpful at all
23:12:59 <oerjan> ehird: i said your question did not parse
23:13:04 <oerjan> you failed to clarify it
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23:13:28 <ehird> 8mb in bytes=8388608
23:13:58 <oerjan> ehird: that's what i said, you never implied you wanted an expanded number
23:14:13 <ehird> it tends to be helpful.
23:14:45 <oerjan> you made an analogy, where the byte part had no number. why should i expect you wanted a number for the 32-bit part?
23:15:52 <oerjan> ERROR: Unknown acronym brwlah
23:16:02 <ehird> it's onomattapeyic
23:16:23 * oerjan pats ehird on the head
23:18:08 <oerjan> hey, that was supposed to make you explode with fury
23:18:36 * oerjan prepares to write a complaint about this child psychology book
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23:24:50 <ehird> Lessee... dictionary format:
23:25:41 <ehird> {lengthofdefinition,'n','a','m','e',0,pointertointerp,anythingatall}
23:26:27 <ehird> oklopol: interp=function that takes the data and does shit with i
23:26:31 <ehird> that's so you can do native shit
23:26:41 <ehird> for most words, it just goes through each word in the anythingatall and executes it
23:26:48 <oerjan> oh, i thought it meant interpretation
23:26:57 <oerjan> as in a word dictionary
23:29:31 <ehird> that doesn't handle returns
23:29:33 <ehird> in normal asm it'd jump
23:29:45 <ehird> argh, that isn't in m though
23:29:55 <ehird> i wonder how I can copy a function? AnMaster?
23:30:00 <ehird> since you don't know how long they are
23:30:31 <ehird> copy a func into memory
23:31:07 <AnMaster> well... Why? I mean if you JITed it you would know.
23:31:20 <ehird> AnMaster: I have a memory array
23:31:25 <ehird> but this c func i define isn't in it
23:31:26 <AnMaster> I don't think you can find out except with debug info or such
23:31:31 <ehird> and i need it to be in there to address i
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23:32:18 <ehird> AnMaster: suggest an alt solution?
23:32:22 <oklopol> if you have two in a row, probably you'll at least be able to copy the function to memory, might get some extra tho
23:32:37 <ehird> hmm I guess I could have a layer of indir-erection
23:32:39 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you find out the size of a variable if you have a pointer to it?
23:32:45 <ehird> if you try and jump to <magic>
23:32:52 <ehird> it instead calls interp()
23:32:58 <AnMaster> if it is malloced you should be able to ask libc, however there is no function for it
23:32:58 <oklopol> and don't care, i just love my voice
23:33:30 <AnMaster> ehird, just saying that the same applies here. There is no official method of doing it
23:33:49 <AnMaster> as I said, ELF symbol tables or debug info might have it
23:34:17 <AnMaster> ehird, so would a map file generated by the linker
23:34:26 <AnMaster> but in general there is no way to find out
23:34:46 <AnMaster> maybe use heuristics and trace all jumps to find the last ret?
23:35:34 <oklopol> what's wrong with mine just out of killing the cat
23:36:03 <AnMaster> anyway nothing says compiler have to put a function in one single chunk
23:36:41 <oklopol> portable hacking is portable
23:36:53 <AnMaster> with profile feedback data gcc and icc will split code into hot and cold sections, sometimes splitting a function in several parts with other functions in between.
23:37:49 * ehird comes up with some magical memory locations
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23:38:34 <kerlo> Bike path is bike.
23:40:37 <AnMaster> hm interesting. glibc has some code that calls into the middle of another function. As in the asm call instructions.
23:41:10 <AnMaster> Happens in vprintf() into the middle of _itoa_lower_digits
23:41:39 <AnMaster> that is, looking at disassembly in gdb
23:41:48 <coppro> I guess every printf eventually ends up in vfprintf
23:42:14 <AnMaster> coppro, not snprintf/sprintf though. But other than that yeah.
23:44:09 <AnMaster> 000000304ca43d0c <cuserid+0x7c>:
23:44:32 <ehird> I need to do a jmp in C.
23:44:47 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you using C and not asm then
23:44:58 <ehird> i don't know asm and don't want to deal with that shit
23:45:00 <AnMaster> actually you could use inline asm for it.
23:45:57 <AnMaster> apart from that I think you can't do it. Well tail call maybe. GCC can optimise tailcalls at -O2 or higher into jumps iirc. So return returns directly to the original caller too.
23:46:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: no, it's even, address ends with 'c'
23:46:05 <ehird> I can just avoid calling functions
23:46:10 <ehird> with a, wait for it
23:46:15 <ehird> HUGE FUCKING SWITCH STATEMENT IN A LOOP
23:46:16 <ehird> WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
23:46:25 <AnMaster> ehird, what the heck are you doing...
23:46:30 <ehird> AnMaster: implementing a forth.
23:46:35 <ehird> coppro: why aren't you enthused :(
23:46:55 <AnMaster> for Forth the sane way would be asm in fact.
23:46:55 <ehird> that's too bad. you should be.
23:46:59 <ehird> it's good to be enthused.
23:47:34 <oerjan> ehird is a veritable enthusalem
23:47:42 <AnMaster> I think I for once managed a major restructuring of cfunge without breaking IFFI :D
23:48:41 <pikhq> ehird, why do you need to do a jmp in C?
23:48:48 <ehird> pikhq: for a forth
23:49:11 <AnMaster> 304ca791c8: e8 e3 da ff ff callq 304ca76cb0 <malloc_trim+0x400>
23:49:19 <pikhq> Might I recommend computed goto?
23:49:23 <AnMaster> I mean why does it call into the middle of a function
23:49:26 <ehird> pikhq: no, no, a huge switch.
23:49:47 <coppro> the best way is obviously indexing into an array of function pointers
23:50:18 <pikhq> ehird, see plof/cplof/src/jump.h
23:50:45 <ehird> if all goes to plan then I can define a word named "foo" that calls "hello" 5 times, and "hello" is a primitive printing "hello, world\n"
23:51:15 <AnMaster> coppro, a huge switch can be faster since it won't need an extra stack frame, compiler can turn it into a jump table
23:51:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: The header file from Plof I cited tests for __GNUC__ and does either computed gotos or a huge switch statement in a loop.
23:51:23 <AnMaster> and then just return at the end
23:51:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, is the computed goto faster?
23:52:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, also link to this file in some viewvc or similar
23:52:32 <pikhq> Easier for the compiler to optimise.
23:53:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, really? I have looked at huge switch case asm, and it was a jumptable, "as good as it can get".
23:53:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, that was the instruction dispatcher for cfunge.
23:53:49 <AnMaster> which almost fills the range 32..127
23:54:17 <AnMaster> a few defaults for trefunge specific instructions
23:54:28 <AnMaster> and a hole for the fingerprint implemented instructions
23:54:43 <AnMaster> still a jump table which seems fairly efficient
23:54:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, and, again I ask for link
23:55:14 <pikhq> I'm trying to find it.
23:55:19 <ehird> http://imgur.com/CQoF.png
23:55:20 <pikhq> I have 56 kilobits of bandwidth, man!
23:55:44 <pikhq> ... And Trac is down.
23:56:49 <ehird> AnMaster: http://codu.org/plof/hg/index.cgi/file/c151d9b88f93/cplof/src/jump.h
23:57:49 <AnMaster> that doesn't really show how it is used.
23:58:06 <ehird> are you mentally disabled? it's self-evident from the definitions
23:59:57 <AnMaster> wouldn't help in the case you are interpreting program data
00:01:09 <ehird> my problem is that I do i = (*r)++; but when we return we try and use that as a primitive when it's not; we need the interpreter, but that's lost :-(
00:08:05 <ehird> "You can tune a file system, but you cannot tune a fish."
00:08:29 <ehird> reads better with s/cannot/can't/ as in bsd
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00:58:59 <kerlo> Eigen eigen eigen eigen eigen.
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07:01:17 <fizzie> "Oh eigen, eigen, eigen, I made it out of clay."
07:05:26 <fizzie> And about instruction dispatchers, I think mooz wrote something in ASM where each instruction-handling block was a fixed power-of-two-size, so it didn't even need a table lookup; it was just "relative jump to playfield[ip] << x".
07:07:28 <fizzie> There's also a well-known addendum to that tunefs quote: "Actually, you indeed can tune a fish; usually at a canning factory."
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08:57:45 <fizzie> Tunefs; at least my tune2fs man page is rather boring.
08:58:19 <fizzie> Well, there's this "BUGS: We havenβt found any bugs yet. That doesnβt mean there arenβt any..."
09:00:14 <fizzie> But not the the tunafish pun. That's in at least FreeBSD tunefs(8) man page, probably in many others too.
09:01:20 <fizzie> Not in Solaris 10, even though it has a tunefs tool. Maybe they're too serious for that sort of stuff.
09:07:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you use t much in fungot? I forgot.
09:07:06 <fungot> AnMaster: dark one:... but none have found him and his fellow titans were ousted from mount olympus. ( macmillan illustrated animal encyclopedia)
09:07:56 <AnMaster> actually I doubt fungot will gain much from this change, since it actually use so many fingerprints.
09:07:56 <fungot> AnMaster: any small object that is stored in a little squeamish sometimes..." " interesting point, nobby. i rushed to its deadly brink. i think-" ( dining with a unicorn horn rule is if it ain't broke then don't fix it.
09:09:59 <fizzie> I use t never, because any blocking read would anyway block the other threads, and I don't want to busy-loop either.
09:11:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, well this won't help you much, it just avoids allocating much of the fingerprint opcode stacks until it is actually needed.
09:11:28 <fizzie> I guess I could do some sort of "whenever we have something interesting to do, fork a thread for it and let the other IP busy-loop and poll for input; when there's nothing going on, just do a blocking read" logic, but it sounds awfully complicated.
09:11:44 <AnMaster> I'm down to ~310 malloc() and ~60 realloc() calls for a mycology run now.
09:12:04 <AnMaster> and some of those are due to glibc internals
09:12:30 <AnMaster> as in: glibc allocates for IO or network stuff internally
09:12:56 <AnMaster> how could you have missed that
09:13:06 <AnMaster> considering how often it has been discussed in here.,
09:13:34 <lifthrasiir> bsmntbombdood: http://iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/befunge/mycology.html FYI. it is an extensive funge-98 test suite.
09:13:49 <bsmntbombdood> why do you care about malloc calls in a test suite?
09:14:24 <bsmntbombdood> i assume you are reducing allocation for performace
09:14:41 <lifthrasiir> well, it is also a practical performance test for funge interpreter... and i recommend you to look up previous logs
09:14:47 <AnMaster> I care about reducing memory waste. The time is the same (since glibc malloc() allocates in chunks from the kernel, and the syscall overhead isn't as large)
09:14:59 <fizzie> I would say something to the effect of "Mycology is not very representative of real-world Funge workloads", were there any real-world workloads to speak of.
09:15:34 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: of course not an representative of typical funge program, i agree.
09:15:38 <AnMaster> I just noticed I had an unreasonable number of pointless malloc() calls before for fingerprints
09:16:12 <AnMaster> now I'm down to at most 26 per ip, and only when it is actually needed.
09:16:39 <AnMaster> though they are actually realloc of null pointers
09:17:16 <AnMaster> oh and the code is much less complex now too as a bonus.
09:26:07 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, tracking exact bounds add almost 0.008 seconds of overhead (wall clock). Of course IO is a way larger overhead. Around 0.03 seconds compared to redirecting to /dev/null
09:26:46 <AnMaster> if -f is used for fully buffered stdout (instead of the default line buffered) the difference to > /dev/null is closed to 0.15, but still...
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12:29:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I have a test program here that CCBI and cfunge prints different things for (rcfunge segfaults). And I forgot why I wrote it, and I forgot to document it...
12:30:02 <AnMaster> "HTRF"4(n 1 0aaaaa****- #v L 'b,a, @
12:30:34 <AnMaster> cfunge prints a followed by a newline and exits, CCBI prints b
12:30:49 <AnMaster> not sure if this signifies anything
12:31:10 <AnMaster> well it means ccbi didn't reflect
12:31:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have no clue what it tests even!
12:32:17 <Deewiant> You're passing a negative number to L
12:32:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because the value is negative it seems
12:32:31 <AnMaster> code comment says: /// L - Forth Roll command
12:33:59 <Deewiant> What if you add '0 to the TOS instead of printing a or b
12:34:32 <AnMaster> um? You mean checking what is on stack after?
12:34:43 <Deewiant> My guess is that CCBI just converts it to unsigned and sees it as trying to roll from way below where the stack ends
12:35:27 <AnMaster> last rcfunge2 prints b instead of segfaulting btw
12:35:37 <AnMaster> just noticed I had an outdated version
12:37:07 <Deewiant> To the TOS, to see if it's still 1 or if it's 0 or something else
12:37:22 <AnMaster> wouldn't adding a . be better?
12:38:29 <AnMaster> "HTRF"4(n 1 0aaaaa****- #v L .'b,a, @
12:38:37 <AnMaster> $ other/ccbi/ccbi_linux/ccbi.64 tests/frth-test.b98
12:38:47 <AnMaster> $ build/cfunge tests/frth-test.b98
12:39:11 <Deewiant> If you put another . there you'll get 0 1 b
12:39:30 <AnMaster> well empty stack == 0 so I expect to get that in the end
12:39:45 <AnMaster> $ build/cfunge tests/frth-test.b98
12:39:48 <AnMaster> $ other/ccbi/ccbi_linux/ccbi.64 tests/frth-test.b98
12:40:04 <AnMaster> $ ~/funges/interpreters/rcfunge2/funge tests/frth-test.b98
12:40:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I'll just document this properly, and include it, since it did cause older versions of rcfunge to segfault it might be useful to someone else in the future
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13:12:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seems Mike Riley retconned what should happen to "L should act like forth -roll with a negative argument"
13:12:42 <AnMaster> as usual I'm implementing the version that was around when I originally did the implementation.
13:12:52 <Deewiant> Ah, interesting, such a thing exists
13:13:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however I consider this undef, it was last time I looked.
13:17:43 <Deewiant> Hmh, it's not in forth-79 nor -83
13:18:30 <Deewiant> Nor in the 1994 ANS Forth standard
13:18:45 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: i wondered that -roll is even in the standard
13:18:53 <lifthrasiir> since i cannot find any information about it
13:19:09 <fizzie> It's not in GNU Forth either. It seems to be a bit unstandard.
13:20:02 <fizzie> It is in PFE -- http://eckhart.stderr.org/doc/pfe-doc/ -- too.
13:20:22 <Deewiant> Yeah, I saw that, but it says "no info".
13:20:59 <Deewiant> And there's no normal ROLL there.
13:21:28 <fizzie> Uh, yes there is: http://eckhart.stderr.org/doc/pfe-doc/words/w-core-0161.html
13:21:34 <fizzie> It's just under the [ANS] category.
13:21:44 <fizzie> And it is equally undescriptive in the documentation.
13:21:57 <Deewiant> Hmm, wonder how I managed to miss that.
13:22:07 <Deewiant> I F3'd repeatedly and saw only two ROLLs.
13:22:24 <fizzie> You didn't accidentally search for "-roll", did you?
13:22:47 <fizzie> Sadly, even -rot seems not to be in the ANSI standard.
13:23:30 <fizzie> The fact that roll rotates n+1 items came as a bit of a surprise to me.
13:24:44 <Deewiant> And yes, it does, or n, or whatever.
13:24:55 <Deewiant> I can't remember the details but it's not a constant value.
13:26:54 <fizzie> The only example in the current FRTH spec is "Example: n543210a-L will leave a stack of: 2 3 4 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 1" but that refers to the rather vaguely defined -ROLL word.
13:27:39 <Deewiant> Well, it makes sense; it rolls in the opposite direction
13:28:02 <Deewiant> That's what it does in Factor, although for a constant size of 4.
13:28:06 <fizzie> Yes, but "4 roll" rotates the 5 topmost items in Forth.
13:28:42 <Deewiant> I saw that in one of the standards I just browsed through.
13:29:21 <fizzie> Well, I've just been reading this one draft.
13:29:27 <fizzie> Maybe it is not a reliable source.
13:30:34 <fizzie> Draft of X3.215-1994, that is; and in here "1 roll" equals "swap".
13:31:06 <Deewiant> It was in the 79 or 83 where 1 roll was a nop.
13:31:16 <Deewiant> It can have changed, of course.
13:31:43 <fizzie> 1 roll is a swap in GNU Forth, FWIW: "roll x0 x1 .. xn n β x1 .. xn x0 core-ext βrollβ"
13:32:08 <fizzie> Strange change, if change it be.
13:32:44 <Deewiant> http://forth.sourceforge.net/standard/fst83/fst83-12.htm#roll says 0 roll is a nop.
13:33:22 <Deewiant> https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/lnmaurer/web/forth/Forth-79.pdf says 1 roll is a nop.
13:36:22 <fizzie> Yes, it certainly seems they've decremented (or incremented, depending on your viewpoint) it between those two standards.
13:39:14 * Sgeo is upset about A!!CT
13:40:01 <Sgeo> I'm also upset about one of the people from A!!CT always talking to be about his issues with the founder of A!!CT
13:40:26 <Sgeo> I think.... I want that last line scrubbed from the log :/
13:40:56 <fizzie> How does one google for something like that? Even quoted, Google just wants to find matches of "a CT" this-or-that.
13:41:39 <Sgeo> Are there search engines that do handle that sort of thing properly?
13:43:49 <fizzie> Yes, I did think about using that.
13:44:10 <fizzie> Your search - "A!!CT" - did not match any documents.
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13:49:34 * Sgeo still can't believe that his map of RSTV is still around
13:50:00 <Sgeo> Actually, geocities is owned by Yahoo!, so I should still be able to get to it
13:51:36 <Sgeo> http://www.geocities.com/sgeo_sgeo/Pool2.JPG a pool I built
13:51:47 <Sgeo> http://www.geocities.com/sgeo_sgeo/Ute.bmp a very broken norn
13:51:53 <fizzie> A!!CT, RSTV... it's like a whole other vocabulary.
13:53:01 <Sgeo> Probably only 6 people or less have heard of RSTV.. or at least what I'm referring to when I say RSTV
13:54:02 <Sgeo> If you're willing to install Active Worlds, I can show you RSTV
13:54:53 <fizzie> Related to the first screenshot, I do remember a magazine article about Active Worlds back in the 1990-something when it was being introduced. I don't think I'm interested enough for installation, though.
13:55:01 <fizzie> Do you have some sort of virtual reality hobby or something?
13:55:11 <Sgeo> I like this sort of thing
13:55:54 <fizzie> There was a VRML model of Helsinki city centre once; I wonder if it still exists.
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13:56:37 <Sgeo> I've been in and loved Cybertown, Active Worlds, and Second Life
13:57:20 <Sgeo> I've been to There, Worlds.com, vSide, Kaneva, IMVU, and at least one that I remember had a grafitti wall but forgot everything else about
13:57:37 <Sgeo> I _hated_ IMVU
13:59:33 <fizzie> I've seen IMVU banner ads; the rest I don't think I've even heard of.
14:00:03 <Sgeo> You haven't heard of Second Life?
14:01:22 <Sgeo> http://i42.tinypic.com/e5ques.png I'm the reason that sign exists
14:02:55 <fizzie> Well, SL, yes. And I think the Cybertown name rings a bell, but I couldn't say anything what it is.
14:03:22 <Deewiant> Of those, I think I've heard only of Second Life.
14:04:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: Had you been diligently reading MikroBitti, you would've seen a featured article about Active Worlds (I think it might even have been alphaworld at that time) at some point in 1995 or so.
14:04:57 <Sgeo> fizzie, Cybertown is a VRML Blaxxun-based community
14:05:38 <Sgeo> That IVN basically killed when they bought it. When it was free, it was very popular. Then Blaxxun went bankrupt, IVN bought Cybertown, required a $5/month subscription, and now it's practically dead
14:06:19 <Deewiant> Alphaworld rings a bell, though.
14:06:54 <Sgeo> Deewiant, Alphaworld apparently was the old name of Active Worlds. Alphaworld is now the name of the original Active Worlds world.
14:07:55 <Deewiant> "On June 28, 1995, AlphaWorld was renamed Active Worlds" --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Worlds
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16:25:58 <ehird> 12:55 fizzie: Do you have some sort of virtual reality hobby or something?
16:26:09 <ehird> clearly he was abused at a young child and this is his only method of escape
16:26:13 <ehird> </pseudopsychologist>
16:26:16 <ehird> 08:07 fungot: AnMaster: any small object that is stored in a little squeamish sometimes..." " interesting point, nobby. i rushed to its deadly brink. i think-" ( dining with a unicorn horn rule is if it ain't broke then don't fix it.
16:26:16 <fungot> ehird: but it feels like...
16:26:20 <ehird> s/sometimes/ossifrage/
16:30:14 <oerjan> fungot: your mind is going. you can feel it.
16:30:15 <fungot> oerjan: buried in the slums are clean. because of my rivals in the big bro' this job before security and the chocobo's personality.
16:30:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
16:30:33 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
16:30:39 <fungot> ehird: 24. because they can be marked with certainty: whereas affirmative propositions ( that is, with a tassel, and was fnord him with his umbrella. " who can have patience with a man that's got no more fnord than they, for all you have to hire the fitting on the fnord back, my little dear! it took me a full month to come," he said, with a glass in its eye, dressed in gown, bands, and wig, was fnord a pig on the charge of fnor
16:31:16 <oerjan> no wonder alice in wonderland is so scary, with all those fnords
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16:44:02 <ehird> 16:05:43 <LittleDan> eiz: how did ESR ruin the jargon file?
16:44:02 <ehird> 16:06:10 <eiz> Hang on, I'm eating here
16:44:06 <ehird> UNINTENTIONAL ICE BURN
16:45:33 <pikhq> Anyways, that's an easy question to answer. He's added things to the Jargon File that are true of him and only him.
16:45:51 <pikhq> Rather than making it a, well, Jargon File.
16:46:26 <ehird> Careful pikhq or esr will go GANDHICON ON YOUR ASS
16:46:33 <ehird> You're in for a fisking!
16:47:07 <pikhq> Ah, yes. Amtahma Gandhi -- The anti-Gandhi.
16:47:46 <pikhq> A master of agressive compliance.
16:47:48 <ehird> "Hitler, on the other hand, will be reincarnated at least dozens of times as a sensitive, easily hurt pile of flesh in a realm called Naraka and tortured in specific ways (such as having his bones and organs smashed into thousands of pieces and reassembled) for many trillions of years, but eventually, when all of the bad karma that caused his evil character has been burned away, he'll get a chance to go back to good old Earth."
16:47:51 <ehird> β http://shii.org/afterlife
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17:14:42 <Sgeo> ehird, "(Ranked from worst to best treatment of unbelievers) "
17:15:00 <Sgeo> Why would the Atheism one be put as the most?
17:15:17 <ehird> Sgeo: It's put as the best.
17:15:39 <ehird> Sgeo: There's some bias at work here: Shii is a buddhist, so he views the snuffing out of the soul as a good thing.
17:41:06 <oklopol> this consciousness thing is getting kinda old anyway.
17:41:26 <ehird> I like conciousness :<
17:42:13 <oerjan> BRAINS.. philosophically
17:42:47 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
17:44:08 <oklopol> so what if i was a vegetarian cannibal who only ate other people's hair and nails
17:44:34 <oklopol> you can parse that in two ways
17:47:28 <oerjan> that's not vegetarian, those are still animal products
17:48:24 <oerjan> technically if you _were_ a plant, you could be a vegetarian cannibal...
17:49:00 <oklopol> but it can be vegetarian, or are you saying there's not term for ppl who don't eat meat but drink milk
17:49:54 <ehird> yeah it is vegetarian
17:50:00 <ehird> vegetarian = no meat
17:50:03 <ehird> vegan = no animulz
17:50:09 <ehird> fake vegetarian = no meat unless it's from a fish
17:50:18 <oklopol> vegetarians also often err what you said.
17:50:32 <ehird> FISH AREN'T ANIMALS
17:51:42 <oklopol> but well fish are pretty stupid, unlike most animals people eat
17:52:15 <oklopol> i'm sure most fake vegetarians would eat cockroaches too
17:52:36 <oklopol> and you know braindead cats etc
17:52:38 <oerjan> logically, we should endeavor to kill as few animals as possible per meal. so, eat more whales!
17:52:58 <oklopol> lament: that's very offending, could you kick yourself?
17:53:30 <oerjan> oklopol: would braindead women count as vegetables?
17:54:18 <oklopol> all a vegetarian cannibal would have to do is kill the brain first
17:54:36 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
17:54:38 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
17:54:40 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
17:54:40 <Sgeo> oerjan, the only thing wrong with that is that this entire conversation, as well as everything else, is distracting me from doing homework
17:54:50 <oerjan> a mad scientist vegetarian cannibal might put the brain in a jar
17:55:05 <Sgeo> Basic Writing Skills :/
17:55:10 <Sgeo> It's an essay due today
17:55:18 <oklopol> oerjan: i think the brain needs to be somewhat functional and in the body for the human to be a vegetable
17:55:35 <oklopol> Sgeo: and you where from where?
17:55:37 <oerjan> that sounds - backwards.
17:55:48 <Sgeo> oklopol, what?
17:58:14 <oklopol> oerjan: how's it backwards?
17:58:53 <oerjan> clearly the brain has to be dysfunctional
17:59:08 <oklopol> yes, that's a given, but i think it needs to be somewhat functional.
17:59:28 <oklopol> afaik they don't call dead people vegetables.
17:59:33 <oerjan> well, the life-supporting bits
18:00:10 <oklopol> well right i guess you could just have a fake brain for that, and jarrify the actual mergfh
18:00:14 <oerjan> also, a rerun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken
18:01:38 <oklopol> this client has automatic correction, it's main use is to teach me new words.
18:02:13 <ehird> "On the first night after the decapitation Mike slept with his severed head under his wing.[1]"
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18:03:59 <oklopol> lament: ban ehird he's being sentimental
18:04:25 <oerjan> oklopol: that cannot be ehird, must be his good twin
18:04:53 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FQh1ehArYs
18:06:27 <oklopol> oerjan: actually that's one of ehird's noticeable qualities. for instance there was this one story about a rabbit who died and ehird was all like waaa waaa that was kinda sad
18:06:39 <ehird> i was half joking you know oklopol
18:06:51 <ehird> i'm not really traumatized like 100% of the time :p
18:06:52 <oklopol> and i was like huh must be gay cuz i just laughed at the bunny and peed on it.
18:07:06 <ehird> i was crying at your terrible abuse of the peeing bunny.
18:07:24 <ehird> oklopol: maybe I was crying that we never got to see the bunny's guts
18:07:38 <ehird> exactly. so stop making assumptions, okloPEE.
18:07:40 <oklopol> well, tbh i shed some tears cuzza that
18:08:12 <oklopol> why not show the good parts?
18:10:44 <oklopol> good twin, i'm sure this has been explored somewhere...
18:12:08 <oerjan> it's just rarer than evil ones
18:12:21 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilTwin
18:13:09 <oklopol> isn't it quite obvious it's rarer considering it's a joke on evil twins?
18:13:18 <oklopol> at least i'm assuming it is
18:13:35 <oklopol> I'M SEEING A TVTROPES LINK.
18:13:55 <oklopol> well it crashed my firefox
18:14:00 <oerjan> i mean, don't worry, it's harmless
18:14:32 <oerjan> and i would have gotten away with it too, if not for that meddling firefox
18:14:52 <oklopol> so can i get IE on ubuntu, i'm getting kinda tired of this crap?
18:15:25 * oerjan wouldn't _know_ but doesn't think so
18:15:57 <ehird> oklopol: yes, but umm
18:17:27 <ehird> oklopol: it's your computer being shitness
18:17:38 <oklopol> ehird: ah yeah probably, i have ubuntu
18:18:28 <oklopol> anyway it's probably because of ram littleness.
18:18:42 <ehird> and cpu old/shitness
18:18:47 <ehird> and components not being frenz
18:19:10 <oklopol> well, you'd think it could like say "i can't open anymore shit" and not like just crash
18:19:13 <oerjan> or something like that, anyway
18:19:30 <ehird> oklopol: i suppose it's because nobody has a computer old enough to test on
18:20:31 <oklopol> right, because on new computers it's really hard to open enough windows to crash the browser.
18:20:52 <oklopol> well okay it is in that the gui actually becomes a bottleneck for easy usage, but anyway.
18:20:54 <ehird> well I'm not saying it's that
18:21:11 <ehird> oklopol: eh, beats windows, prolly. unless its one of the fucked up hw combinations that work well on windows and not on linux
18:21:25 <ehird> but there aren't many of those
18:21:57 <oklopol> i have never had a computer i've tried two different oses on
18:24:06 <oklopol> <ehird> oklopol: eh, beats windows, prolly. unless its one of the fucked up hw combinations that work well on windows and not on linux <<< what exactly was this in reference to?
18:24:27 <ehird> oklopol: well I used to have a computer where linux did the crashy crash and windows sailed like... well it was shit but not like linux
18:24:35 <ehird> oklopol: turned out the hardwares just hated each other
18:24:48 <ehird> and windows happened to step on their toes in a way different to linux
18:24:51 <ehird> that just happened to make them not crash
18:26:06 <oklopol> well anyway, you're absolutely right in that ubuntu and firefox would work much better if i had a more recent computer.
18:26:57 <oklopol> but they work well enough, so i'm going to keep using this thing, and just calling ubuntu a loser
18:27:02 <oklopol> flawless logic if you ask me
18:28:09 <ehird> FLAWLESS LIKE A FLOOR
18:29:39 <oklopol> 95% of teens would cry if they saw the Jonas Brothers at the top of a skyscraper about to jump. Copy and paste this EVERYWHERE if you are in the 5% thatο»Ώ would shout 'Jump assholes
18:29:44 <oklopol> i saw this fine thing on youtube
18:29:56 <oklopol> and they were kinda gay on south park so i thought what the heck.
18:30:16 <oklopol> anyway what i was going to say was
18:30:27 <oklopol> youtube comments are kinda stupid, why do i always read them?
18:30:35 <ehird> oklopol: because an !
18:31:32 <oklopol> wait i didn't understand that
18:31:45 <oklopol> wait that's just more nonsense
18:31:50 <oklopol> what's going on in here....
18:33:03 <oerjan> oklopol: probably some unicode thing, we just see !'s but it's really an encoded jpg or something.
18:34:46 <oklopol> nuh-uh you're just wolping me :|
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18:37:16 <oklopol> i have been informed if i don't attend a shoppe now, it will be too late for me.
18:39:06 * ehird invents nice Forthy control structure
18:39:26 <ehird> : NEED invert IF r> drop THEN ;
18:39:26 <ehird> : ist NEED ." T" ;
18:39:28 <ehird> : isf invert NEED ." F" ;
18:39:30 <ehird> : torf dup ist isf ;
18:39:52 <ehird> "true torf" prints T, "false torf" prints F, "anything torf" prints nuthin'
18:40:47 <ehird> have i mentioned, I love >r and r>
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19:12:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I just realised: 1d funge is concatenative
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19:56:51 <ehird> "For one, I own a netbook, a MSI Wind to be exact. 2GB Ram, 1.6Mhz Atom"
19:56:57 <ehird> ONE POINT SIX MEGAHERTZ
19:59:10 <pikhq> s/Mhz/Ghz/, I assume. Atom's slow, but not *that* slow.
19:59:31 <ehird> pikhq: 2GB of ram seems a bit excessive for 1.6ghz, too.
19:59:54 <ehird> I have 2.5GB RAM and 2.2ghz and when one struggles the other does too, so they're pretty well matched.
20:00:18 <oklopol> GregorR should really fix his client
20:03:02 <ehird> is there a way to mount /tmp in ram unless it gets big and then switch to drive
20:04:06 <GregorR> My intuitive (lame) answer would be tmpfs + mount-bind + unionfs, but there's probably a smarter/better way *shrugs*
20:04:33 <pikhq> tmpfs + unionfs with a script.
20:04:39 <pikhq> Or a custom FUSE filesystem.
20:05:19 <GregorR> Well, tmpfs + unionfs exist as-is :P
20:05:26 <ehird> i'm zipping around http://tombuntu.com/index.php/2008/09/04/four-tweaks-for-using-linux-with-solid-state-drives/ to fig out how to make my upcoming ssd worknicely
20:05:51 <ehird> lessee... noatime, tmpfs, ff cache in /tmp, noop scheduler
20:06:17 <ehird> http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/ β now how do I do this with ext3...
20:06:43 <ehird> why do people put /boot in a separate partition
20:08:01 <ehird> ahh... when will intel release TRIM support?
20:08:16 <ehird> those tweaks + TRIM support probably = love
20:08:23 <GregorR> ehird: Some bootloaders can't handle partitions that are too big, or reading data past a certain point on the partitions, or certain filesystems, so /boot is made a separate partition, at the beginning of the drive, in a supported filesystem, of a small size, etc.
20:08:34 <ehird> GregorR: ah. so it's a workaround for lilo.
20:08:53 <pikhq> It's also a workaround for BIOSes that don't support too large partitions.
20:08:54 <GregorR> I doubt highly that LILO has any of those limitations.
20:09:06 <GregorR> Yeah, it's mainly BIOSes with bootloaders that use only BIOS calls.
20:09:18 <pikhq> It's also very handy if you've got root in LVM; bootloaders don't support LVM yet. ;)
20:09:29 <ehird> I wonder how I'll get Factor on the ssd and not on it at the same time, i.e. I want work/ to be on the big hd and the system to be on the ssd
20:09:45 <ehird> ~/local/factor/ since ~/local/ = /aux/ehird-local or whatever
20:09:58 <ehird> then ln -s ~/src/factor-work/ ~/local/factor/work
20:10:27 <ehird> i really want TRIM support though
20:11:13 <AnMaster> ehird, why the noop scheduler?
20:11:21 <AnMaster> also I don't remember seeing that one for ages
20:11:50 <ehird> AnMaster: see http://tombuntu.com/index.php/2008/09/04/four-tweaks-for-using-linux-with-solid-state-drives/
20:11:59 <ehird> deadline is another option but a lkml post sez that deadline can be really slow under heavy load
20:12:52 <ehird> AnMaster: the thing is that cfq optimizes for avoiding moving the head or w/e
20:12:58 <ehird> which is meaningless on an SSD and so just wastes time
20:13:14 <AnMaster> yes cfq is best for disk of course
20:13:18 <ehird> and deadline would work if not for the unusability under load
20:13:36 * ehird examines how big his tmp folders are
20:13:45 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure deadline was made for normal spinning disks too
20:14:09 <ehird> AnMaster: os x thang.
20:14:10 <ehird> I think /var/folders contains some big stuff
20:14:15 <ehird> So it's not really /tmp
20:14:21 <AnMaster> ehird, /var/tmp can grow big on some *nix
20:15:01 <ehird> AnMaster: apart from /var/folders that's just 2.3MB
20:15:05 <AnMaster> ehird, usually not a good idea to make it tempfs either, since fhs iirc declares it not to be temporary temporary, rather persistent temporary (not cleaned out on boot automatically)
20:15:08 <ehird> and I have no problem with losing 2.3MB RAM for performance
20:15:16 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm sure there's an fstab thing to fix that
20:15:24 <ehird> I assume the 5g doesn't happen on the linux stuff
20:15:33 <ehird> and anything under 100MB is just fine to lose :P
20:15:38 <ehird> so that'll be great
20:15:57 <AnMaster> ehird, depends. Gentoo use /var/tmp/portage for compiling packages in. If you decide to use openoffice instead of openoffice-bin I guess it could hit the 5 GB mark easily :P
20:15:57 <ehird> noatime helps a lot sez ted ts'o
20:16:10 <ehird> AnMaster: well then I'd reconfigure that
20:16:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yes noatime is good for normal drives too
20:16:27 <ehird> AnMaster: to use my big hd -- since writing 5GB to an ssd will have a quite big impact until TRIM
20:16:38 <ehird> but it'll accellerate it a bit
20:16:47 <ehird> AnMaster: ATA TRIM; do you know how ssds work?
20:16:55 <ehird> to overwrite data in a block they have to copy it, modify it, then put it all back
20:17:00 <ehird> so if you write a lot of data, it slows down
20:17:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know how ssds work, but I do know how flash works. I have used cf cards
20:17:12 <ehird> with TRIM, they'd mark blocks that are just that file and nothing else
20:17:31 <ehird> thus making it go fast for way longer
20:17:37 <ehird> (even tho they're still really fast worst-case anyway)
20:17:39 <AnMaster> as in writing to a cache line without fetching it first?
20:17:51 <AnMaster> like is done for write-combining memory
20:18:09 <ehird> AnMaster: what i mean is that when you use an ssd for a while it runs out of free blocks
20:18:20 <ehird> and so has to copy a block, rewrite it and put it back most times you overwrite
20:18:24 <ehird> which is fast, but slower than just writing a new block
20:18:34 <AnMaster> hm ssd and journaled file systems wouldn't work nicely together
20:18:35 <ehird> since TRIM would mean more blocks are marked free on delete time, it'd help a lot
20:18:57 <ehird> AnMaster: the only usable SSDs are intel's and the ocz vertex
20:19:09 <ehird> AnMaster: the intel X25-M (best one): http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/03/01/ssds-journaling-and-noatimerelatime/
20:19:14 <ehird> tl;dr basically no journaling overhead
20:19:27 <ehird> AnMaster: he uses ext4 there
20:19:32 <ehird> so ext3 would be more or less the same there
20:20:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway unless you need the access time to be accurate for files/directories I recommend noatime for *all* partitions
20:20:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I never really trust fs timestamps
20:20:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Changing them is just one 'touch' away
20:20:48 <ehird> I prefer in-file metadata when I can control the format
20:21:00 <ehird> since that needs more deliberate rewriting and can be version controlled
20:21:06 <AnMaster> well true. But unless you assume someone is malicious it can be useful for trivial stuff like auto deleting unused files in /tmp
20:21:44 <AnMaster> which is more or less needed on servers where you will have uptime in the range of half a year - a year
20:22:05 <AnMaster> depending on how often you reboot your desktop it may be needed there too
20:22:26 <AnMaster> usually init scripts clear out /tmp on reboot, and since you plan to use tmpfs for it anyway
20:22:43 <ehird> AnMaster: any idea about http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/; it tells you how to do an alignment thing with ext4, can ext3 do that?
20:23:25 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, and, what fs would you recommend for /home? plain text (inc. code), document files, music, long high-definition video files (multi-gb ofc)... so really a whole range of stuff
20:23:37 <ehird> AnMaster: but not really any OS stuff; apart from e.g. binaries of programs I'm working on and what not
20:23:53 <ehird> for the os i'm pretty sure I'm going with ext3, since it's popular
20:26:28 <ehird> AnMaster: what's lvm btw
20:27:18 <AnMaster> ehird, an outdated technology, 2.6 kernels use LVM2
20:27:39 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a flexible Logical Volume Manager 2
20:27:49 <AnMaster> meaning you can resize partitions on the fly and such
20:28:00 <ehird> AnMaster: ah. so, most distros have that then?
20:28:05 <AnMaster> depending on fs you may need to unmount or not first
20:28:11 <ehird> "As it turns out, if you are using ext4, there is a way to tell the file system that it should try to align files so they match up with the RAID stripe width. (These techniques can be used for RAID disks as well)."
20:28:14 <ehird> I don't understand that
20:28:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I have yet to see a GUI frontend to LVM
20:28:22 <ehird> does it mean that aligning to raid stripe width is useful on non-raids?
20:28:28 <ehird> AnMaster: right but do distros ship with lvm
20:28:45 <AnMaster> ehird, usually the kernels support it yet. But usually it isn't the default way to install
20:28:58 <AnMaster> ehird, also you need at least /boot on a non-lvm partiton
20:29:35 <ehird> AnMaster: what about the raid-y question thing
20:29:51 <AnMaster> if you wish to skip initramfs/initrd then /sbin and /etc must be on non-lvm too
20:30:13 <AnMaster> anyway lvm (which implies lvm2 99% of the time, I was just nitpicking...) is very useful
20:30:39 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't make sense to me
20:31:05 <ehird> i can tell it's obviously right, I just dunno what i'm meant to do to get a simple ext3 ssd setup that's all aligned and shit :)
20:31:25 <AnMaster> why would you need aligning for non-RAID?
20:31:43 <ehird> AnMaster: 'cuz of how ssds' blocks work, see http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/
20:31:55 <AnMaster> also I wouldn't go for ext3 personally, but either ext4 or xfs. But I don't know how well xfs works on SSD.
20:32:21 <AnMaster> My experience is exclusively based on rotating storage technology usage.
20:32:41 <ehird> AnMaster: ext4 blowing up on badly written apps scares me :)
20:32:51 <ehird> and I don't wanna trust that shit to an experimental fs
20:32:58 <ehird> whutz wrong with ext3 AnMaster?
20:33:05 <AnMaster> ehird, only if you crashed in the middle of that app running
20:33:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is a bit slow and over time it does get fragmented, and there is no defragmentation tool for it either.
20:33:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Fragmentation means nothing on SSDs,
20:33:52 <ehird> accessing any point is as fast as accessing any other.
20:34:18 <ehird> bit slow? I'd think SSD speed offsets that, but with the noop scheduler I'd expect ext3 to be... well, not slow.
20:34:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Unless you mean cfunge-optimization kinds of slow. :-)
20:34:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well you might want to tune the journal thing to only journal metadata (unless that is the default, I forgot)
20:34:47 <AnMaster> ehird, no I meant slow in a more usual sense
20:35:00 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but writing all data twice is going to wear out the disk twice as fast.
20:35:16 <ehird> AnMaster: see http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/03/01/ssds-journaling-and-noatimerelatime/
20:35:21 <ehird> it seems not to matter much
20:35:26 <ehird> also, OS drives generally don't see big files
20:35:47 <ehird> "Yes, default ext3 is painfully slow, but journal_data_writeback and dir_indexes give it a steroid pump"
20:36:32 <ehird> AnMaster: is there a way to bind mount ~/.*?
20:36:35 <ehird> that is, all dotfiles
20:36:48 <ehird> that'd be useful as config files are tiny and apps wouldn't have to hit the slow mechanical HD
20:36:53 <ehird> AnMaster: can it match on something like that though
20:36:56 <ehird> instead of just a directory
20:37:11 <ehird> union mechanical and ssd to ~
20:37:15 <ehird> and put dotfiles in /aux/ehird/dotfiles
20:37:17 <AnMaster> ehird, yes something like that
20:37:24 <ehird> AnMaster: that would work if not for apps managing their own dotfiles
20:37:27 <ehird> putting them on the wrong drive
20:37:27 <AnMaster> but I don't know if it will work
20:37:48 <AnMaster> iirc unionfs can do some stuff to decide where the files will go. But I don't know to what degree.
20:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway ext4 issues were precisely because apps were changing their dotfiles a lot
20:38:28 <ehird> it'd just be nice to have apps start up without bothering the noisy, slow (yet big) mechanical monster
20:38:52 <ehird> i should only hear that thing if I open a document/media file :-P
20:39:58 <AnMaster> ehird, just get enough ram to put most stuff in cache?
20:40:09 <AnMaster> anyway you can get quiet spinning disks
20:40:16 <ehird> AnMaster: Uh, do you think 12GB is enough? :-P
20:40:23 <ehird> And yes, you can, but at the cost of speed.
20:40:49 <ehird> The drive I'm getting is 7500rpm... and it's going in a copper enclosure + the case is lined with acoustipak to dampen the noise; I really doubt I'll hear anything.
20:40:49 <AnMaster> ehird, um. You know about "acoustic management" that most modern disks have?
20:41:01 <AnMaster> use hdparm to put it in quiet mode
20:41:12 <AnMaster> since you don't care about cfunge performance level anyway
20:41:13 <ehird> AnMaster: a 5400 rpm will always be quieter than a higher one
20:41:19 <ehird> but 5400 rpm is just too slow for me
20:41:30 <ehird> AnMaster: think I should spend $10k to get 7 x 160GB SSDs in a RAID? >:D
20:41:33 <ehird> β joke, obviously
20:41:57 <AnMaster> how large will that SSD you decided to buy be?
20:42:16 <ehird> AnMaster: It is not the cheapest drive.
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20:43:07 <ehird> AnMaster: The prices for the 160GB Intel X25-M are like $500-$900. Really pricey drive, but the CPU, the RAM and the drive are really what matter...
20:44:14 * ehird examines his current drive.
20:44:21 <ehird> Hey, it's an Intel.
20:44:26 <pikhq> Bah. I'm planning on just spending $200 to double to quadruple almost all the stats of my system...
20:44:42 <AnMaster> ehird, "Why 250k and not 256k? I canβt tell you β sometimes the LVM tools arenβt terribly intuitive." <-- That captures the essence of LVM tools very well.
20:44:43 <ehird> pikhq: It does not help that I have an unhealthy obsession with getting this thing silent.
20:45:01 <AnMaster> but LVM is very good. Just the tools are a bit "baroque" as it says.
20:45:04 <pikhq> ehird: Oh. Well, that's going to be very expensive.
20:45:12 <ehird> pikhq: You have no idea. Take a guess.
20:45:16 <ehird> Oh, it's an i7 machine too.
20:45:23 <AnMaster> ehird, if you plan to use lvm you _will_ need to read a tutorial
20:45:42 <ehird> Say, you know you guys said you've seen fans on RAM? When would that be neccessary?
20:45:42 <AnMaster> ehird, and bookmark some reference docs!
20:45:56 <AnMaster> ehird, fast enough ram I guess.
20:46:00 <ehird> What about, say, 6 of these... http://www.mushkin.com/doc/products/memory_detail.asp?id=745
20:46:22 <AnMaster> also I don't claim to be an expert on it
20:46:26 <ehird> Would be a bitch if that'd need a fan.
20:46:37 <ehird> pikhq: Anyhoo, take a guess.
20:46:52 <AnMaster> ehird, the fact that they have some sort of heat-sinky thing (the red metal thing...
20:46:59 <AnMaster> make sure there is enough space between the ram slots
20:47:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, but that's just for 3 of them.
20:47:12 <ehird> 6 might get a lil' hot.
20:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, read what I said instead?
20:47:34 <ehird> I'm looking at the mobo now
20:47:35 <AnMaster> and three could get hot too. I don't know.
20:47:50 <ehird> The moboroborama: http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/asus_p6t_deluxe.jpg
20:48:15 <ais523> stange... I've got something that looks very like a phishing email
20:48:16 <AnMaster> ehird, you need physical measurements of the RAM and the mobo and some math
20:48:21 <pikhq> ehird: $1,000 and up.
20:48:27 <ais523> but it's from and reply-to a correct address at Birmingham Universit
20:48:36 <ais523> and it's telling me a username/password, rather than asking for it
20:48:41 <ehird> ais523: forged from
20:48:45 <ais523> the rest looks very suspicious, though
20:48:53 <ehird> pikhq: That's very vague.
20:48:55 <ais523> ehird: reply-to the same address? they'd never get my reply...
20:49:01 <ehird> ais523: true enough
20:49:04 <pikhq> The point being that it's more than you really need.
20:49:14 <ais523> I know from can be forged, after all I've done it myself in the past
20:49:35 <pikhq> Given $1,000, I'd probably end up with a couple terabytes and a minimum of 8 cores...
20:49:38 <ais523> most disturbing is that they put my email in initcaps
20:49:40 <ehird> pikhq: Getting even a mid-end machine silent is expensive enough.
20:49:42 <ais523> seeing Bham.Ac.Uk is just weird
20:49:52 <ehird> pikhq: So, might as well go upwards-compatible while I'm at it.
20:49:55 <ais523> nobody writes top-level domain names like that!
20:49:56 <ehird> pikhq: Also, terabytes of what? RAM? :P
20:50:06 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the received from headers and such?
20:50:17 <pikhq> No, though I'd also have quite a bit of RAM.
20:50:25 <pikhq> I don't use hard drive space *that* much.
20:50:44 <ehird> pikhq: Mm; I'm going for a 1TB main hd. As I said, upwards compatibility; since, as I also said, silencing a mid-end machine is already up there price-wise.
20:50:55 <pikhq> (even with my habit of ripping DVDs, it's hard to fill my 500G HD)
20:51:01 <ais523> AnMaster: I suspect it'll all be internal University
20:51:16 <ehird> pikhq: Ever seen the size of a blu-ray rip?
20:51:18 <pikhq> But, hell, I guess if you've got the money to spend, might as well...
20:51:30 <AnMaster> ehird, about stripe width I don't think ext3 can do that.
20:51:32 <pikhq> Oh, right. Blu-ray.
20:51:33 <ais523> yep, it never left bham.ac.uk
20:51:43 <pikhq> That'd make it easy to fill the hard drive.
20:51:57 <ehird> pikhq: You also need ridiculous CPU to play those things.
20:52:04 <ehird> pikhq: 3GHz for a single-core machine, I read.
20:52:09 <pikhq> Or a mid-range graphics card.
20:52:11 <ais523> my guess is that it's legit, but very incompetent
20:52:21 <pikhq> ... Single-core? They still make single-core chips?
20:52:27 <ais523> luckily, it's the sort of message that I'd ignore both ways round
20:52:32 <AnMaster> <pikhq> But, hell, I guess if you've got the money to spend, might as well... <-- ... go for IBM RoadRunner?
20:52:43 <ehird> pikhq: I'm going for the Radeon HD 4850; which is probably mid-high-end or something. Only cuz it's the best one that I could find passively cooled.
20:52:47 <ais523> and wow, the HTML mart is bad
20:53:05 <ais523> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
20:53:06 <ehird> IIRC, Deewiant said the only faster cards ATI make are <weird thing beginning with X> and the 48{70,90}.
20:53:11 <ais523> <--- a representative sample
20:53:11 <pikhq> So, you're far pickier than I am with computers.
20:53:11 <ehird> ais523: That's Word that is.
20:53:28 <pikhq> I prefer to be a generation behind. Cheaper. :p
20:53:29 <ais523> ehird: I know, I've spent hours dewording html before now
20:53:51 <ais523> the trick's to first use Tidy's auto-deworder to remove the worse bits, then a whole load of Emacs regexps
20:53:52 <AnMaster> ais523, that is out of order too. Unless <?xml> can be put at any place except the start.
20:53:59 <ehird> pikhq: More like "my current computer mostly fulfils my needs, but I get really irritated when it doesn't, and hw more powerful than you need runs high loads smoothly"
20:54:01 <ais523> well, it looks very out of order to me
20:54:12 <ais523> and that's quite a lot of effort just for one nbsp
20:54:14 <ehird> pikhq: A workload that'd max out a 2-core 2.2ghz system will be just a blip for a 4-core 3.2ghz system.
20:54:25 <ehird> pikhq: So if you max out your system quite a lot...
20:54:34 <pikhq> And I should specify, my main reason for being a generation behind is budgetary concerns.
20:54:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, man I'd love an IBM Roadrunner though. Think of how fast you could compile openoffice on it. On and how fast cfunge would run.
20:54:55 <AnMaster> actually cfunge wouldn't currently gain anything from it :/
20:54:58 <pikhq> I could get use out of much more expensive hardware if I had it, I just don't have the cash.
20:55:09 <ehird> pikhq: I'm considering hiring the guy who handled Disaster Area's finances for this.
20:55:29 <AnMaster> but some bits could be made parallel
20:55:46 <ehird> AnMaster: you could make t multi-threaded, just sync it up
20:55:53 <pikhq> I'm falling rather far behind, though.
20:56:05 <pikhq> I've got a single-core chip.
20:56:06 <ehird> * 14 USB 2.0 ports (6 ports at mid-board, 8 ports at back panel)
20:56:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that wouldn't gain anything, since it would be lock step, you couldn't even run two ips in the same tick at once.
20:56:12 <ehird> I'm trying to think of a use-case for 14 USB ports.
20:56:15 <pikhq> And my AMD processor isn't with AM2.
20:56:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have a Single core Sempron 3300+
20:56:43 <ehird> *Multi-language BIOS
20:56:50 <pikhq> Single core Sempron 2800+.
20:56:51 <ehird> I assume mylogo lets you replace the BIOS hugeimage, right?
20:56:54 <ehird> So set it as a totally black one.
20:57:04 <oklopol> is there a nice and simple way to get this computer's stats?
20:57:06 <ehird> You'd just get the "Press DEL" etc at the bottom of the screen.
20:57:11 <ehird> That would be the nice.
20:57:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I was using a Dell recently. And entered BIOS setup. And it asked what language I wanted
20:57:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Klingon.
20:57:26 <pikhq> And I max out my CPU regularly.
20:57:33 <pikhq> I use Gentoo, after all.
20:57:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, I use gentoo too. But I use openoffice-bin
20:57:54 <AnMaster> but with IBM Roadrunner I could compile it myself :D
20:58:13 <ehird> I'm currently using 35% of my CPU. (Up to 200%)
20:58:23 <ehird> And I've used 2.03GB out of 2.5.
20:58:35 <ehird> And I have 28GB free of my 221GB HD.
20:58:46 <ehird> Although the main culprit atm for CPU usage is Safari.
20:58:51 <ehird> It always uses like 70% of CPU.
20:59:12 <ehird> Anti-virus software (OEM version)
20:59:14 <ehird> Image-Editing Suite
20:59:18 <ehird> I've always wished my mobo came with an image-editing suite and an antivirus
20:59:20 <ehird> And a suite for artificial intelligence!
20:59:23 <pikhq> I don't have a major job running, so I'm currently using 1% of my CPU. Gleee.
21:06:23 <oklopol> anyone know a nice chess ai library?
21:11:28 -!- jix has joined.
21:14:04 <AnMaster> 22:14:00 up 5 days, 2:08, 15 users, load average: 0.25, 0.10, 0.02
21:14:59 <pikhq> 15:14:53 up 2 days, 19:49, 11 users, load average: 1.20, 1.03, 0.62
21:15:09 <pikhq> I've got lzma -9 running.
21:15:29 <pikhq> And Ratpoison & Xulrunner.
21:15:32 <pikhq> Single slower core.
21:18:31 <lifthrasiir> 5:18 up 27 days, 2:22, 7 users, load averages: 0.75 0.72 0.67
21:19:15 <lifthrasiir> 2 GHz dual core here. but i don't know why LA is somewhat high.
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21:28:57 <ais523> yay, they ruled that turnitin is fair use
21:28:57 -!- sebbu3 has joined.
21:29:13 <ais523> which gives me a very good reason not to assign copyright on the things I hand in to them like the University want
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21:38:21 <oklopol> no idea what you're talking about, but good for you!
21:39:13 <pikhq> TurnItIn is an anti-plagery site.
21:39:32 <pikhq> And I guess his uni wants students to assign copyright to the university.
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21:40:10 <pikhq> Which seems like something that couldn't really stand -- contracts under duress don't really stand up in court all that well.
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21:40:27 <ehird> pikhq: what's xulrunner doing
21:40:34 <pikhq> Being a web browser.
21:40:49 <pikhq> Currently, I'm using it for Conkeror.
21:41:01 <pikhq> If I'm feeling more GUI-inclined, it'll be Firefox instead.
21:41:12 <ehird> why ratpoison instead of stumpwm?
21:41:25 <pikhq> Just not bothered switching to stumpwm yet.
21:43:40 -!- Judofyr has joined.
21:44:17 <pikhq> Seems that Ratpoison isn't really actively developed any more, so I'll probably switch over to stumpwm sometime soon.
21:44:59 <ehird> pikhq: You're just too faux-hardcore for floating windows. :P
21:45:40 <pikhq> Floating windows?...
21:46:01 <ehird> pikhq: Ratpoison is a tiling window manager.
21:46:10 <ehird> β No floating windows
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21:48:46 <ehird> http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/psm-5000.jpg This cooler looks like bread.
21:49:22 <pikhq> And probably costs some bread.
21:49:42 <ehird> pikhq: Well, $24 _is_ an amount of money...
21:49:53 <ehird> It's just for wimpy mini-ITX cases.
21:49:57 <ehird> "The Nexus PSM-5000 is a passive full copper SkiveTek heatsink for Intel Pentium M processor and it is perfect if you want to create a single fan solution in your psile case. The interiour design of your Psile allows you to cool your Pentium M using only the internal case fan that is inlcuded in the package of your psile case. "
21:56:12 <ehird> "Woman rams someone's car in road rage incident, floors the accelerator and spins her tires until they light her car ablaze, then refuses to get out of the car and tells everyone to "fuck off" as flames engulf the car. She was burned alive."
21:57:29 <ehird> A modern day ThΓch QuαΊ£ng Δα»©c!
21:58:43 <Deewiant> Or at least, I can't infer what exactly she was protesting against, if anything.
21:59:21 <ehird> Deewiant: Other cars!
22:00:03 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
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22:15:51 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:16:45 <ais523> yay, you can mount zip files in Ubuntu Jaunty
22:16:55 <ais523> you were supposed to be able to in earlier versions, but I never got it working
22:17:32 <ehird> ais523: do you know anything about filesystems?
22:18:49 <ais523> I assume there's some sort of zipfs or whatever on the loopback device, that's the obvious way to implement it
22:19:30 <ais523> I know a bit of the details of how ext3, FAT, and tar work
22:20:14 <ehird> just trying to figure out how to do http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/ without LVM or ext4
22:20:33 <pikhq> LVM is very, very nice.
22:20:43 <ehird> pikhq: it looks scary and I don't want a separate /boot partition
22:21:09 <pikhq> It's not all that scary, and if you *insist* on not having a seperate /boot partition, check out GRUB 2.
22:21:23 <ehird> GRUB 2? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
22:22:32 <ehird> pikhq: That doesn't solve ext4, anyway.
22:22:54 <pikhq> Also, -E stripe-width is valid for ext2 and ext3.
22:23:04 <ehird> pikhq: really? yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
22:23:09 <ehird> pikhq: but does it align to the width?
22:23:19 <ehird> ais523: what kernel is ubuntu 9.04?
22:24:01 <ais523> Linux dell 2.6.28-11-generic #42-Ubuntu SMP Fri Apr 17 01:57:59 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux
22:24:17 <ais523> pretty recent kernel, actually, just 4 days old
22:24:48 <pikhq> ehird: Pretty sure.
22:25:00 <pikhq> That option is meant to make ext2 on RAID faster.
22:25:14 <ehird> ais523: ATA TRIM was committed on april 6th
22:25:18 <ehird> ais523: will that kernel have it?
22:25:54 <ehird> will a patch that recent be in that kernel
22:25:57 <Deewiant> 4 days old but it's based on a Linux much older than that!
22:26:07 <ais523> it could be, it might not be
22:26:13 <ehird> Deewiant: so, no then
22:26:14 <ais523> different patches go through the system at different speeds
22:26:18 <Deewiant> Well, the 2.6.28 would indicate that
22:26:25 <ais523> a fix for an = via == typo would go through pretty quickly, for instance
22:26:30 <ais523> a major feature addition probably wouldn't
22:26:38 <ehird> apparently the ocz vertex supports trim
22:26:55 <ehird> OCZ YOU MAY GET $$$ FROM ME IF INTEL DO NOT GET THEIR SHIT TOGETHER
22:27:53 <ehird> All the articles I've read say that the hardware could do it but the firmware doesn't support it, Deewiant
22:29:06 <ehird> 20:16 ehird: AnMaster: ATA TRIM; do you know how ssds work?
22:29:07 <ehird> 20:16 ehird: to overwrite data in a block they have to copy it, modify it, then put it all back
22:29:09 <ehird> 20:16 ehird: so if you write a lot of data, it slows down
22:29:11 <ehird> 20:17 ehird: with TRIM, they'd mark blocks that are just that file and nothing else
22:29:13 <ehird> 20:17 ehird: as free
22:29:15 <ehird> 20:17 ehird: at delete-time
22:29:32 <Deewiant> ehird: http://communities.intel.com/message/11911;jsessionid=C561787359D1A280372F19A61E8EE881
22:29:35 <ehird> 20:18 ehird: AnMaster: what i mean is that when you use an ssd for a while it runs out of free blocks
22:29:38 <ehird> 20:18 ehird: and so has to copy a block, rewrite it and put it back most times you overwrite
22:29:40 <ehird> 20:18 ehird: which is fast, but slower than just writing a new block
22:29:42 <ehird> 20:18 ehird: since TRIM would mean more blocks are marked free on delete time, it'd help a lot
22:29:50 <Deewiant> ehird: Maybe it's new, since that was posted only two days ago
22:29:51 <ais523> ehird: do you have an SSD hard drive, then?
22:29:59 <ehird> ais523: future tense
22:30:00 <Deewiant> I think he's just planning on getting one
22:30:08 <ais523> I'm pretty sure ext4 does that no matter what the filesystem
22:30:12 <ehird> Deewiant: well, that's awesome
22:30:20 <ehird> ais523: ext4 does that no matter what the filesystem?
22:30:22 <Deewiant> ehird: Intel's SSDs are awesome
22:30:25 <ais523> although obviously the optimisation isn't nearly as useful on other filesystems
22:30:33 <ais523> I mean, optimising deletion of large files
22:30:44 <ehird> ais523: Oh, no, TRIM is basically unused
22:31:08 <ehird> Deewiant: OK, do you know if you can get the kernel to do TRIM shit without compiling your own?
22:31:24 <ais523> is it a kernel module, or in main kernel, I wonder?
22:31:26 <Deewiant> No, I don't, and I don't care, for two reasons
22:31:38 <Deewiant> Firstly, I don't have such a drive AFAIK
22:31:43 <Deewiant> Secondly, I always compile my own
22:31:43 <ais523> strange, filesystems are normally in modules
22:31:53 <ehird> ais523: IT'S NOT A FILESYSTEM!
22:31:55 <ehird> It's a drive issue
22:32:03 <ais523> it's vaguely fs-related, thoguh
22:34:42 <ehird> Btw, is /tmp = /var/tmp?
22:35:11 <ais523> /tmp is wiped every reboot
22:35:16 <ais523> /var/tmp is wiped less often
22:35:16 <Deewiant> /tmp is temporary, /var/tmp is not
22:35:17 <ehird> What's /var/tmp for
22:35:24 <ehird> Untemporary temporary
22:35:25 <ehird> HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
22:35:35 <ais523> temporary stuff that you might want to persist a bit, but you don't mind the system deleting if it runs out of disk space or whatever
22:35:39 <Deewiant> It's for less temporary temporary stuff
22:35:42 <ais523> sort of like /tmp on Windows
22:35:56 <ehird> ais523: ok, so /tmp should be in tmpfs, but /var/tmp should not.
22:36:13 * ehird asks #linux about TRIM.
22:37:25 <ehird> 22:37 ivantis: What is a PHB?
22:38:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:41:41 <ais523> was that PHB as in pointy-haired boss, or some other expansion of the acronym?
22:42:22 <ehird> Following the lead of other open source projects, the Clojure project requires contributors to jointly assign their copyright on contributed code. The Contributor Agreement (CA) gives Rich Hickey and the contributor joint copyright interests in the code: the contributor retains copyrights while also granting those rights to Rich Hickey as the open source project sponsor.
22:42:26 <ehird> Download and print out the Contributor Agreement
22:42:29 <ehird> If you hope to contribute via Clojure's Google Code projects (clojure and clojure-contrib), specify your Google Code username on the agreement. Please specify the name/email you use on the Google Group as well.
22:42:32 <ehird> Sign the agreement
22:42:34 <ehird> Send your signed agreement via postal mail to:
22:42:40 <ehird> Pleasantville, NY 10570-0316
22:42:42 <ehird> So to contribute to Clojure...
22:42:45 <ehird> ...you have to fax or mail a copyright assignment form. To the USA.
22:43:00 <ehird> 22:42 Guest60476: how do you run bin files?
22:43:09 <ehird> It seems ##linux isn't very intelligent.
22:43:15 <ais523> chmod a+x them and type the filename into a prompt
22:43:18 <ais523> you never know, it /might/ work
22:43:32 <ais523> and if it doesn't, probably nothing else will, unless you happen to have an emulator handy
22:43:50 <ehird> ais523: in this case, it would have
22:43:56 <ehird> 22:43 Guest60476: Acd201: qt-sdk-linux-x86_64-opensource-2009.01.bin
22:44:08 <ehird> OTOH he should use a package manager
22:44:24 <AnMaster> <ehird> Untemporary temporary <ehird> HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR <-- as I said before
22:44:47 <ehird> AnMaster: I was mocking the concept of untemporary temporary.
22:45:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: apart from /var/folders that's just 2.3MB
22:45:29 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, usually not a good idea to make it tempfs either, since fhs iirc declares it not to be temporary temporary, rather persistent temporary (not cleaned out on boot automatically)
22:45:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> and I have no problem with losing 2.3MB RAM for performance
22:45:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: I'm sure there's an fstab thing to fix that
22:45:43 <AnMaster> not sure what you meant with that reply though
22:45:47 <ehird> you never said /var/tmp
22:45:53 <ehird> I thought you meant setting /tmp broke that
22:46:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, /var/tmp can grow big on some *nix
22:46:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: apart from /var/folders that's just 2.3MB
22:46:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, usually not a good idea to make it tempfs either, since fhs iirc declares it not to be temporary temporary, rather persistent temporary (not cleaned out on boot automatically)
22:46:35 <ehird> AnMaster: You were remarkably unclear; and stop whining about it, honestly.
22:46:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I was crystal clear, but it is pointless to disucss that with you
22:47:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I was so crystal clear that I couldn't understand you.
22:48:36 <Deewiant> Hmm, I think the DMD bug I want fixed is in the 9643-line expression.c.
22:48:52 <Deewiant> That doesn't narrow it down as much as I'd hoped.
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22:48:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I hope that file is auto generated.
22:49:03 <ehird> nothing wrong with big files.
22:49:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is harder to manager
22:49:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Splitting up atomic units makes no sense.
22:49:29 <AnMaster> ehird, true. But then the design is wrong.
22:49:38 <Deewiant> FWIW this isn't atomic in any sense of the word.
22:49:55 <ehird> Deewiant: Sure, but AnMaster meant it's inherently too large.
22:49:55 <AnMaster> ehird, anything over 2000 lines in a single file is hard to manage in my experience when it comes to C
22:49:56 <Deewiant> This file, as one might guess from the name, implements the semantics of every type of expression in D.
22:50:03 <AnMaster> other languages has different inherent limits
22:50:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Bullshit.
22:50:41 <ehird> I wonder what recent nvidia cards are like.
22:50:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it could be split into expression/foo.c expersion/bar.c and so on I guess.
22:51:41 <Deewiant> Of which 61830 are in the 46 .c files.
22:52:10 <Deewiant> Makes for a mean of 1344 lines per C file.
22:56:17 <ehird> 22:52 manpoole: i used a weird cpu temp to display 17 C would the be close to the normal tmep of a processor?
22:56:55 <ais523> interesting, amongst my updates for today is a suggested update to Finnish hyphenation in OpenOffice
22:57:03 <ais523> normally when it updates languages, it updates them all at once
22:57:42 <Deewiant> ehird: My guess is he can't read Celsius
22:58:06 <ais523> even more interesting, I'm going to have to run updates twice in a row
22:58:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Maybe he's using a pentium 386 or something
22:58:18 <ais523> one of the updates was for update-manager, which apparently isn't updating something it should
22:58:26 <ehird> Those could probably run at 17c
22:59:06 <ehird> Deewiant: What about http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/KL_Intel_i386DX.jpg
22:59:59 <Deewiant> And? Doesn't mean it runs at 17 C :-P
23:00:07 <oerjan> ais523: this is finnish we're talking about. hyphenation is actually ai-complete there, so it's a separate project.
23:00:43 <ehird> **SETTING: It is 2038. A stark room filled with thousands of computers. Eliezer Yudkowsky sits at a terminal.**
23:00:58 <pikhq> I highly doubt that it runs at lower than room temperature.
23:01:01 <Deewiant> A word can be hyphenated differently depending on its meaning, without changing its spelling.
23:01:12 <pikhq> If it does, that's either impressive cooling or a cold freaking room.
23:01:18 <ehird> <AI> I am an AI more intelligent than any human. What do you demand of me?
23:01:21 <oerjan> Deewiant: you mean i was accidentally right?
23:01:28 <ehird> <Yudkowsky> We humans are in a dark age.
23:01:32 <Deewiant> oerjan: Oh, that was accidental? :-P
23:01:39 <ehird> <Yudkowsky> There is one problem we cannot solve -- important to millions of people.
23:01:46 <oerjan> i thought you knew me that well
23:01:46 <ais523> I guessed it was just oerjan oerjanising
23:01:52 <ehird> <Yudkowsky> Please help us hyphenate Finnish text.
23:01:56 <ais523> although I'm not surprised he was right by accident
23:02:22 <Deewiant> I'm struggling to come up with an example although I know I'm right.
23:02:55 <ehird> I wonder what the best way to copy multiple gbs of data really quickly between local computers is.
23:04:09 <ehird> OCZ Vertex firmware upgrades require that you wipe your drive.
23:04:15 <ehird> I wonder if this is so for the X25-M?
23:04:28 <ehird> If it is, no worries. Before upgrading I can always just copy it all to the 1TB HD.
23:04:28 <ais523> that's a bit of a ridiculous restriction, having to wipe your drive to upgrade its firmware
23:04:32 <ehird> 's only 160GB max.
23:04:59 <ais523> and I'd imagine physically putting both the HDs inside the same computer and using dd would be pretty fast
23:04:59 <oerjan> Deewiant: theoretically there's probably a norwegian example as well
23:05:02 <oklopol> <oerjan> Deewiant: you mean i was accidentally right? <<< you didn't know Γ€ and a are a separate character with nothing in common in finnish?
23:05:04 <ais523> it's what dd was designed for as well
23:05:16 <pikhq> ehird, if you don't mind disconnecting the drive, SATA and rsync.
23:05:23 <Deewiant> Ah, "kaivosaukko". Can be either "kai-vos-auk-ko" ("opening of a mine") or "kai-vo-sauk-ko" ("well otter")
23:05:29 <ehird> pikhq: Note: it does not have to be realtime
23:05:36 <Deewiant> oerjan: Theoretically probably? :-P
23:05:38 <ehird> One option I was considering is a huge flashdrive.
23:05:44 <ehird> Copy it over bit by bit.
23:05:45 <oklopol> or wait what was being talked about
23:05:47 <ehird> USB flashdrive that is
23:06:00 <pikhq> Dumb. The network is probably faster.
23:06:26 <pikhq> Especially if you use rsync instead of dd. ;)
23:06:31 <ais523> a USB cable will almost certainly be faster than a USB cabel
23:06:34 <ehird> pikhq: Last time I copied a lot of data over ethernet, it took something like an hour to copy 11GB.
23:06:45 <ehird> ais523: usb cable = infinitiest infinity?
23:06:55 <ais523> as in the cable will be faster than the pendrive
23:06:58 <ehird> 23:05 Deewiant: Ah, "kaivosaukko". Can be either "kai-vos-auk-ko" ("opening of a mine") or "kai-vo-sauk-ko" ("well otter")
23:07:01 <ais523> because you only have to copy over USB once, not twice
23:07:12 <pikhq> And a USB flash drive is slower than that...
23:07:13 <ehird> ais523: Firewire would be faster
23:07:15 <ais523> do otters often live in wells?
23:07:20 <ehird> TOO BAD NOTHING DOES FIREWIRE
23:07:24 <Deewiant> I admit that that's a bit of a ludicrous word. :-P
23:07:26 <ehird> ais523: I thought it meant like, a healthy otter
23:07:32 <pikhq> Also, might I recommend trying to get gigabit Ethernet?
23:07:34 <ehird> But an otter living in a well is fine too!
23:07:37 <Deewiant> ehird: No, specifically the water kind of well.
23:07:38 <ais523> well, I suspect they're different words in Finnish
23:08:06 <ehird> pikhq: Too lazy to get gigabit ethernet.
23:08:24 <ehird> I mean, my 'net can't benefit from it and this is just a one-time copy.
23:08:24 <ais523> get terabit ethernet! Or preferably, petabit!
23:08:31 <ehird> (Migration of crap from imac to new box)
23:08:40 <ehird> (I don't really want to try and remove the HD for obvious reasons)
23:08:47 <ehird> (i.e. it's really fucking hard to get into an imac)
23:08:59 <ehird> JUST LIKE OS X AMIRITE GUYS
23:09:05 <pikhq> At a bare minimum, use rsync instead of dd.
23:09:10 <pikhq> It's significantly faster.
23:09:14 <ais523> pikhq: for a one-time copy?
23:09:26 <ais523> certainly it's faster the second time
23:09:32 <ehird> dd is more raw, no?
23:09:45 <pikhq> ais523: rsync's the easiest way to copy data while preserving permissions, modification time, etc.
23:09:51 <ehird> "Fortunately for us, flash based storage has access times nearly as fast as RAM" β I thought this said nearly twice as fast as ram and was like WAT
23:10:00 <ais523> pikhq: actually, the old intended program for that was cpio
23:10:14 <ais523> but it lost a war against tar, which does something entirely different
23:10:20 <ais523> just because cpio can also do the same as tar
23:10:52 <pikhq> ehird: dd copies every fucking byte of the filesystem. Unless you've got a full filesystem, dd is one of the slowest ways to get stuff off the drive.
23:11:12 <ehird> I meant dding files, silly pikhq.
23:11:13 <pikhq> ... Or if you have a particular reason for keeping the exact same filesystem.
23:11:20 <pikhq> Oh. Well, that's just dumb.
23:11:29 <ais523> depends on how big the files are!
23:11:49 <ehird> Largest file on here... probably a few hundred meg.
23:11:50 <ais523> I wonder how fast cp -rp as root would be?
23:11:56 <pikhq> Especially if you want to preserve permissions.
23:11:59 <ehird> ais523: cp -R is slow as fuck
23:12:05 <oerjan> Deewiant: i've trouble thinking of a norwegian example which isn't equally ridiculous
23:12:08 <ais523> that doesn't surprise me
23:12:14 <pikhq> Or modification times, or ownership, or...
23:12:27 <ais523> the famous example in English is "coworker"
23:12:36 <ais523> even though cow-orker doesn't make a whole lot of sense
23:12:41 <ais523> people like saying it anyway
23:12:45 <ehird> someone who orks cows, duh.
23:12:55 <ais523> Deewiant: someone who orks
23:13:02 <oerjan> kor-sanger: choir singer, kors-anger: cross regret
23:13:03 <ehird> orking4 up, 3 down
23:13:04 <ehird> fucking. esp. in the manner and style of orcs (rough, brutal, noisy & crude)
23:13:06 <Deewiant> cow orker [Usenet] n. fortuitous typo for co-worker, widely used in Usenet, with perhaps a hint that orking cows is illegal.
23:13:07 <ehird> β Urban Dictionary
23:13:10 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure the phrase is defined, but the joke is common enough that it tends to come up a lot anyway
23:13:23 <ehird> So, cow orkers are people who fuck cows in the manner and style of orcs.
23:14:41 <ehird> http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/oczvertexfollowup_033009020937/18688.png β Damn, the X25-M is fast.
23:14:45 <ehird> Like reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally fast.
23:15:03 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:15:20 <ehird> Wuzzat supposed to mean
23:15:30 <ehird> Kiddies aren't allowed X25-M's? :P
23:15:38 <Deewiant> It's what you said when I first pointed you to those graphs :-P
23:15:59 <ehird> Deewiant: that was when I was still blinded by reason and account balances.
23:16:10 <ehird> I have since seen the light. The platinum-plated light.
23:16:41 <ehird> "If youβve read anything about Windows 7 Starter Edition, your first reaction was probably the same as mine: Is Microsoft nuts? This ultra-cheap edition is intended for use on netbooks, but its biggest restriction sounds like a complete deal-breaker: it only runs three applications at once. "
23:17:01 <ais523> what you didn't know the 3-app-at-once limit?
23:17:02 <Deewiant> The point of that article was, of course, that it isn't a deal-breaker.
23:17:11 <AnMaster> ais523, btw how much do you interact with fingerprint manager in IFFI?
23:17:11 <ais523> it's been discussed for years on the Interenet
23:17:11 <ehird> Deewiant: it's wrong
23:17:18 <ais523> AnMaster: not a lot, I don't think
23:17:20 <ehird> ais523: err, for windows 7?
23:17:21 <ais523> all I replace is the main loop
23:17:24 <AnMaster> I *might* have broken IFFI again. I don't think so though
23:17:29 <ais523> ehird: pretty much ever since 7 was announced
23:17:39 <ais523> XP Starter had the same restriction, but it wasn't intended for netbooks
23:17:42 <ais523> as they didn't exist at the time
23:17:56 <ehird> Netbooks are becoming more powerful, really.
23:18:01 <ais523> it was the really cheap version for selling to countries that couldn't afford anything more powerful
23:18:09 <ehird> Soon s/(notebook|laptop)/netbook/ in the lexicon.
23:18:10 <ais523> and netbooks becoming more powerful is missing the point
23:18:37 <ehird> ais523: the really cheap thing misses the point, since they just pirated it instead.
23:18:51 <ehird> "and have no trouble opening three full-featured programs as well."
23:18:58 <ehird> Why do people let Microsoft tell them this shit?
23:19:46 <ehird> 23:19 rob327: [root@hahainyourface ~]# python
23:19:46 <ehird> 23:19 rob327: Segmentation fault
23:19:50 <ehird> Yeah well, ha ha in your face.
23:21:45 <AnMaster> pathetic attempt at being funny there ehird.
23:21:53 <AnMaster> and yes I understood this happened
23:22:16 <ehird> I don't know what you're talking about, but the general structure seems to imply shit, so I'm just going to ignore it.
23:23:02 <ais523> also, why is he trying to start python as root?
23:24:26 <oklopol> mooooore extra for yooooou
23:27:05 <oerjan> happy earth day, says google
23:27:56 <ehird> 23:24 bmc: apt isnt a package format
23:27:57 <ehird> 23:24 bmc: and it does support rpm
23:27:58 <ehird> 23:25 bmc: apt is just a wrapper/frontend for dpkg or rpm
23:29:23 <oklopol> oerjan: imo earth day should be established only once there is an alternative for it.
23:29:34 <oerjan> ehird: just pretend bmc is AnMaster, then you should immediately see that it's a laughable idea that no one in their right mind would think of
23:29:54 <ehird> oerjan: hey now I use statistical correlation like all the best AIs
23:30:27 <oklopol> you can only celebrate that which is a minority
23:30:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a frontend for dpkg
23:30:45 <ehird> oklopol: BEING ALIVE DAY
23:30:49 <AnMaster> and the package format is *.deb
23:30:58 <oerjan> oklopol: http://familycrafts.about.com/library/spdays/bljuly20th.htm
23:31:49 <oklopol> oerjan: err what about that
23:31:58 <oerjan> oklopol: an alternative :D
23:32:14 <AnMaster> earth day? I heard about earth hour, but not earth day
23:32:16 <oklopol> by alternative i meant an alternative for earth
23:32:27 <oerjan> although no one likes the place really, it has no atmosphere
23:32:38 <oklopol> moon isn't one yet, well, will never be
23:32:56 <oklopol> because there are better ones at hand
23:33:41 * ehird twiddles thumbs while waiting for adsl modem to arrive
23:33:48 <ehird> i have a doorstop router until then :D
23:34:06 <oklopol> also even if there's an alternative for earth, earth would have to contain less than 50% of humanity in order to be celebrateable.
23:34:27 <ehird> oklopol: what about easter
23:34:39 <ehird> like 99.314159% of humanity are christians
23:34:49 <oklopol> they're not celebrating chriatianity.
23:34:52 <ehird> oklopol: jesus dying then resurrecting and going "lol j/k guys"
23:34:58 <ehird> which is not very... minority?
23:35:03 <oerjan> ehird: no, it just feels that way
23:35:08 <oklopol> has it happened many times?
23:35:13 <ehird> oklopol: good point :D
23:35:30 <oklopol> anyway you could have an earth day if it was formally about some event related to earth
23:36:01 <oklopol> but you cannot just assign a day for earth per se, until earth contains less than 50% of humanity.
23:36:29 <ehird> oklopol: what about people living on mars
23:36:31 <ehird> can they celebrate earth day
23:36:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> like 99.314159% of humanity are christians <-- No. It is is more like 25-30% or such iirc
23:36:51 <ehird> pretty sure it's obvious I was hyperbolerizing
23:37:11 <ehird> how about β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½
23:37:19 <ehird> like 99.314159%β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½β½ of humanity are christians
23:37:20 <oklopol> ehird: hard to say, i have given this less thought than i should've.
23:37:45 <ehird> The Christian share of the world's population has stood at around 33 per cent for the last hundred years.
23:38:04 <oklopol> maybe that means they have one third right?
23:38:18 <AnMaster> ehird, ok 33% then I was slightly off
23:38:27 <oklopol> maybe god assigns portions of people to religions based on the accuracy of their beliefs.
23:38:39 <AnMaster> what a pitty it wasn't 66.6666666666666666666%
23:38:52 <ehird> oklopol: what if the majority of people become atheists
23:38:55 <ehird> is that god offing himself
23:39:14 <AnMaster> ehird, god of atheists take care of it.
23:39:16 <oklopol> why are your questions so hard
23:39:23 <oklopol> ask something simple like you know bunnies.
23:39:47 <ehird> i can attest to that, being one.
23:39:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, how are "bun" and "bunnie" related?
23:39:54 <oklopol> i was just illustrating what i meant by simple.
23:39:58 <ehird> did i just say that
23:40:21 <ais523> -y becomes -ies in most English plurals, bunny -> bunnies is one of them
23:40:21 <ehird> clearly bunnies are tasty in buns
23:40:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: did you miss all 4 of them? :D
23:40:28 <ais523> maybe it's an Easter reference?
23:40:38 <AnMaster> bunnie<half pressed down s key>
23:40:39 * ais523 wonders how rabbits ended up associated with Easter anyway
23:40:50 <oklopol> "bunnies." "bunnies?" "bunnies." "ah, bunnies." "bunnie?"
23:40:57 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, and what about eggs...
23:41:08 -!- coppro has joined.
23:41:14 <AnMaster> ais523, eggs are even more connected with easter, at least around here.
23:41:19 <oklopol> ais523: there's a south park episode about it
23:41:21 <AnMaster> doesn't make a lot of sense either.
23:41:23 <ais523> but that's less complicated
23:41:28 <ais523> oklopol: doesn't mean it's true
23:41:36 <oklopol> ais523: it's better than the truth.
23:41:40 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and witches of course. But I guess that is pretty much specific to Sweden.
23:41:51 <AnMaster> and go google it if you are interested in it,
23:41:55 <ais523> I've never heard of easter witches before
23:42:01 <ais523> witches are associated with halloween over here
23:42:36 <AnMaster> ais523, first hit on google (haven't checked accuracy with more than a glance): http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1889922_1890008,00.html
23:42:57 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no halooween here. Well it has been imported in recent years.
23:43:39 <AnMaster> ais523, rather we have "All saints" at the same point. Same origin iirc(?)
23:43:49 <ais523> apparently it's a lot bigger in the US than in the UK
23:43:55 <ais523> and isn't all saint's the day before or after/
23:44:51 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe, I'm not religious.
23:45:08 * ehird reasks ssd q in ##linux again
23:45:24 <AnMaster> actually that times article is wrong
23:46:05 <AnMaster> "The tradition is said to come from the old belief that witches would fly to a German mountain the Thursday before Easter to cavort with Satan." <-- Not a German one. One on an island in the Baltic sea, slightly north of the much larger island "Gotland"
23:46:06 <ehird> the times is a uk newspaper
23:46:35 <ehird> "The Times was founded by John Walter on 1 January 1785 as The Daily Universal Register"
23:46:36 <ehird> that's an awesome name
23:46:40 <ehird> THE DAILY UNIVERSAL REGISTER
23:47:06 <AnMaster> but how is that related to um a newspaper...
23:47:18 <AnMaster> I mean "universal register" sounds like something that is a part of a UTM
23:47:39 <AnMaster> wait, Universal register... Would be a turing complete register
23:47:40 <ehird> AnMaster: in the old sense, i assume
23:47:46 <ehird> a registry of going-ons
23:47:53 <ehird> universal meaning that it doesn't just cover a town, I assume
23:47:57 <AnMaster> still I like my interpretation better
23:48:59 <ehird> yay, the april 20th intel x25-m firmware update doesn't wip
23:49:01 <ehird> unlike the old one
23:49:28 * AnMaster wonders how computable a single (bignum) register for both code and data would be
23:49:30 <ehird> "Bizarrely, according to the synthetic HD Tach benchmark, the new firmware slows the read and write speeds by ten per cent."
23:49:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:49:31 <ehird> "On the other hand, CrystalDiskMark shows that the write speed doubled from 35MB/s to 70MB/s. It was a similar story in ATTO Disk Benchmark, where the write speed also jumped forward."
23:49:43 <ehird> AnMaster: a bignum is equivalent to infinite memory
23:49:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but you could only operate on the whole register at once
23:50:24 <AnMaster> thus to modify data you would have to modify the code too
23:50:48 <AnMaster> I'm not sure how this would work (if at all) but I don't think I ever saw this idea before.
23:50:53 <ehird> everyone's testing the 80gb x25m and not the 160gb one
23:51:06 <AnMaster> ais523, I need your help here. ^
23:51:22 <ais523> AnMaster: there are self-modifying programming languages around
23:51:30 <ais523> it really just depends on how powerful your modification mechanisms are
23:51:36 <AnMaster> ais523, yes befunge for example...
23:51:55 <ais523> if it's just increment/decrement, and you don't have an IP or anything else separate, it's obviously non-TC
23:52:08 <AnMaster> ais523, it bit be bitwise operations only!
23:52:20 <ais523> yes, must be with just increment/decrement
23:52:26 <ais523> because you can only have one program that's an infinite loop
23:52:44 <AnMaster> ais523, err depends on how program is read
23:52:45 <ais523> and there are obviously at least two different non-terminating Turing-compatible programs
23:52:57 <AnMaster> example: stored in MSB downwards
23:53:05 <ais523> AnMaster: this is bignums
23:53:08 <ais523> they don't have an MSB
23:53:20 <AnMaster> ais523, they have a highest currently set bit though
23:53:22 <ais523> but either you either have a separate instruction pointer to record where in your program you are
23:53:40 <ais523> or the bignum needs to store the entire state, including the program location
23:54:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I think there should be no separate IP and always the 8 lowest bits will be used for selecting instruction to execute.
23:54:25 <AnMaster> and only operations are the INTERCAL bitwise ones :D
23:54:38 <AnMaster> possibly with some other absurd one added to make it TC if it isn't
23:55:00 <AnMaster> issue is I can't think of any good ones
23:55:16 <ais523> but some of the INTERCAL operations take two arguments
23:55:21 <ais523> and I seriously doubt it would be TC without mingle
23:55:37 <ehird> One thing I take consolation in:
23:55:48 <ehird> There are a few hobbies more expensive than my upgrade.
23:56:01 <ais523> why use powerful massively-upgraded computers?
23:56:07 <ais523> I've been trying to stay low-end as much as possible
23:56:10 <AnMaster> ais523, well maybe the binary operations could be implicitly using bit-interleaved numbers
23:56:11 <ais523> this laptop is more or less bottom of the range
23:56:17 <ehird> ais523: I'm upgrading because this system limits me
23:56:22 <ais523> AnMaster: that would be utterly pointless on a mingle!
23:56:27 <ais523> ehird: this system doesn't limit me!
23:56:30 <ehird> ais523: Going a bit higher in spec to make the upgrade worth it, then making it silent, costs a lot anyway.
23:56:36 <ais523> in what ways are you limited?
23:56:37 <ehird> ais523: So...; also, it may not limit you.
23:56:46 <ais523> I'm interested, rather than critical
23:56:59 <ais523> incidentally, the only resource I've really found has caused me problems in the past is disk space
23:57:18 <ehird> I run many applications at once; you tend to stay minimal and use things like w3m, I don't; I mess with large amounts of data a lot; I hate waiting for a computer to realise I've done something
23:57:23 <AnMaster> ais523, so lets say it takes the top half and the lower half. half here meaning "half of the range to the currently most significant set bit"
23:57:24 <ais523> Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
23:57:26 <ais523> /dev/sda6 111713482 64038606 41998712 61% /
23:57:31 <ehird> and I may as well buy something futureproof
23:57:45 <ais523> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
23:57:46 <ais523> /dev/sda6 107G 62G 41G 61% /
23:58:17 <ais523> I don't really have a 100G hard-drive, do I?
23:58:19 <ais523> I thought it was only about 20
23:58:30 <AnMaster> ehird, my / is 0.7 GB and contains 230 MB data.
23:58:44 <ehird> ais523: I had an 80GB HD in the early 2000s.
23:58:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I have an old Dell with a 20 GB harddrive.
23:58:54 <ehird> ais523: Getting a new 20GB drive would be a marvel.
23:59:01 <ais523> I wonder what's taking up all the space?
23:59:03 <ehird> AnMaster: your HD is 700mb?
23:59:04 <ais523> maybe backups, I suppose
23:59:08 <AnMaster> ehird, it has a "designed for windows 98 sticker"
23:59:08 <ais523> or entire Linux distributions
23:59:17 <ehird> ais523: backups on the drive?
23:59:36 <ais523> ehird: backups of other things
23:59:43 <ais523> I have backups of things here elsewhere, obviously
00:00:01 <ehird> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/04/17/pedisedate/ β AAAAAA
00:00:19 <ais523> wow, my .mozilla is rather large
00:00:25 <AnMaster> ais523, you don't know what's on your disk?
00:00:29 <ais523> that's what caused me a problem over on the Sun computers
00:00:39 <ais523> AnMaster: not /everything/, I have loads of packages installed
00:00:42 <AnMaster> ais523, *.sqlite files in could be large in it IME.
00:00:58 <ais523> ~/.local is nearly a GB, I wonder what's in there?
00:01:12 <ehird> My main issue with my new system is partitioning between the two drives.
00:01:25 <AnMaster> ais523, try (after quitting firefox) cd ~/.mozilla/<path to profile>; for i in *.sqlite; do sqlite3 $i VACUUM; done
00:01:27 <ais523> and ~/nwn is 3 GB, but that's not surprising
00:01:32 <AnMaster> that usually frees quite some space
00:01:34 <ais523> AnMaster: no need, I'm not low on space yet
00:01:43 <AnMaster> ais523, it speeds up firefox too
00:01:50 <pikhq> ehird: Moral of the story, use LVM. Repartitioning is easy. :)
00:01:55 <AnMaster> ais523, and reduces RAM needed.
00:02:02 <AnMaster> ais523, needs to be redone every few weeks.
00:02:11 <ais523> why doesn't firefox do it automatically?
00:02:15 <pikhq> Have to unmount to shrink, probably, but nice and easy to grow the filesystem.
00:02:16 <ehird> pikhq: I'm scared of LVM though,.
00:02:34 <ehird> pikhq: Also, that doesn't impress me.
00:02:52 <AnMaster> the tools are a pain to use. But it is very flexible.
00:02:54 <ehird> pikhq: I deleted a dormant partition and resized my main one to fill its space, all from within Disk Utility, instantly taking effect.
00:02:57 <AnMaster> That is in fact the issue of it.
00:02:58 <pikhq> The main reason you have to unmount to shrink is that most *filesystems* don't support live shrinking.
00:03:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed. IIRC jfs or some does support it however?
00:03:39 <pikhq> I can also move partitions to a different disk without unmounting.
00:03:41 <ehird> My magical calculation gods tell me that my OS (i.e., non-home) currently uses 70GB.
00:04:17 <ehird> OS X is rather the big.
00:04:24 <ehird> Especially when you have as much crap as I.
00:04:26 <pikhq> I've got 32GB used, and that's because I've got a lot of junk I don't need installed.
00:04:33 <pikhq> Oh, and that's including full source.
00:04:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, is it JFS that too? which command?
00:04:54 <ehird> Still, brushing 70GB confirms that I'm right not to go for the 80GB X25-M.
00:05:06 <ehird> I'd rather have a ton of unused space than have to, you know, delete stuff.
00:05:08 <pikhq> That's lvm. pvremove.
00:05:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, um.. For *shrinking file system*
00:05:50 <oklopol> ais523: about being low-end, i think my father still uses his 300mhz win95 machine
00:06:02 <AnMaster> I'm sure I saw some fs supporting online shrink
00:06:09 <ais523> I still have a Win95 machine
00:06:12 <ais523> I haven't booted it up in a while
00:06:13 <ehird> oklopol: I had one of those a while back
00:06:19 <ehird> I thought I'd be awesomely retro with it
00:06:21 <ais523> but I'm insisting on keeping it because some things just aren't compatible with XP
00:06:23 <ehird> Instead I threw it away
00:06:38 <ais523> ehird: how are you going to develop 16-bit Windows applications now?
00:06:56 <ehird> ais523: by wishing I'd never been born? Isn't that how it's always been done?
00:07:24 <AnMaster> ais523, why would you want to do that?
00:07:38 <oklopol> i could easily do with a 300mhz computer
00:07:43 <ais523> AnMaster: because the 32 bit APIs don't let you access the internal system speaker?
00:07:54 <AnMaster> ais523, also there is still some support *.com for 16-bit emulation on xp
00:07:55 <oklopol> except for them internets.
00:07:58 <ehird> that would be rather painful
00:07:59 <ais523> sure, you can beep, but you can't mess with the pitch or duration
00:08:08 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but it isn't perfect
00:08:18 <ais523> the beep APIs don't work
00:08:24 <oklopol> ehird: i mainly just need irc... but i guess that would require a bit more
00:08:25 <ais523> although admittedly they were deprecated in Windows 3.1
00:08:30 <AnMaster> ais523, write a kernel driver?
00:08:37 <ais523> but more to the point, the replacement that Microsoft suggested for it doesn't work in XP either
00:08:43 <AnMaster> ais523, Or switch to Linux or *BSD
00:08:49 <ais523> it hangs for about 5 minutes whenever you load a MIDI file
00:08:50 <AnMaster> where you can mess with the internal speaker easily
00:08:54 <ais523> AnMaster: what do you think I did, eventually?
00:09:04 <ais523> I developed Windows applications for /years/
00:09:08 <oklopol> well actually you could just have a slower connection and there would be no problem
00:09:10 <AnMaster> <ais523> it hangs for about 5 minutes whenever you load a MIDI file
00:09:28 <ais523> that's Windows XP using MCI as the API
00:09:36 <ais523> it worked fine in previous versions
00:09:36 <ehird> ais523: i want dna maze
00:09:47 <ais523> ehird: I can send you a Window executable if you like
00:09:54 <ehird> that would not be useful :P
00:10:01 <ais523> the sources don't compile any more, unfortunately
00:10:14 <ais523> they relied on a proprietary Borland extension to the Win16 API
00:10:22 <ais523> which Borland don't support any more for obvious reasons
00:10:37 <AnMaster> I have a copy of turbopascal for DOS somewhere. Just FYI.
00:10:38 <ais523> AnMaster: computer game, that I've been developing since 2001
00:10:44 <ais523> AnMaster: so do I. and it still runs.
00:10:57 <AnMaster> no idea where I have it though
00:11:02 <ais523> not on this computer, though, on the Win95 computer
00:11:05 <AnMaster> I also have a working copy of MPW!
00:11:33 <ais523> I have a copy of Windows Media Player from before when it was rubbish
00:11:37 <AnMaster> horrible thing with a pseudo shell thingy
00:11:41 <ehird> "Expensive extras include 2GB of memory, a SATA-based array of .5 terabytes of storage"
00:11:54 <ehird> ais523: look up "Media Player Classic"
00:12:03 <ehird> it's old WMP interface, modern codec support etc
00:12:08 <ehird> AnMaster: My first mac was this one
00:12:15 <ais523> sounds interesting, but nowadays I just use Totem or Rhythmbox
00:12:26 <ais523> depending on what I want it for
00:12:49 <AnMaster> http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/
00:12:57 <AnMaster> they must have forgot that page
00:13:17 <ehird> just left for history
00:13:20 <AnMaster> also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Programmer%27s_Workshop
00:13:52 <ehird> MPW was supposed to be quitegood
00:14:15 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ResEdit
00:14:58 <ehird> http://www.ralentz.com/old/mac/humor/mpw-c-errors.html
00:15:44 <AnMaster> "...And the lord said, `lo, there shall only be case or default labels inside a switch statement'" <-- someone hating duff's device?
00:16:05 <ehird> is illegal, I guess
00:16:12 <coppro> duff's device doesn't use non-{case,default} labels
00:16:25 <ais523> ehird: no it isn't, I think it's switch(foo) { } case 1: that's illegal
00:16:30 <ais523> and that that's warning against
00:16:43 <ais523> i.e. it's a misplaced only, telling people off for putting a case outside a switch
00:16:45 <AnMaster> I'm not going to boot my old mac now
00:17:00 <ehird> I'm not going to have a heart attack now.
00:17:38 <ais523> as in, the entire source tree
00:17:46 <ais523> I went and compiled clang from source, as it wasn't packaged
00:17:50 <ais523> and the rest of LLVM at the same time
00:18:00 <ais523> yes it is, I just du'ed it
00:18:05 <AnMaster> ais523, let me boot the computer that has the llvm source tree on it *sec
00:18:12 <coppro> I have several GB of gcc on this computer
00:18:15 <ais523> that's after compile, so it has all the binaries in too
00:18:22 <AnMaster> that is how long it takes from button to ssh being up
00:18:23 <ais523> coppro: have you messed with gcc internals, ever?
00:19:00 <ais523> I should get back to gcc-bf some time
00:19:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm running du -sh on the llvm svn checkout
00:19:27 <ehird> I wonder what to call my new box.
00:19:32 <ais523> llvm/Debug/bin and llvm/Debug/lib are what are taking up most of hte space, it seems
00:19:45 <ais523> so it's a debug build of the whole of llvm that takes up the space
00:19:49 * AnMaster use phoenix and tux for his boxes
00:19:54 <AnMaster> ais523, this is a release build though
00:19:58 <ehird> Cheetahs are the ones that run really really fast, silently, right?
00:20:02 <ais523> ah, that must be why it's smaller
00:20:06 <ehird> So cheetah, or ninja or something :P
00:20:07 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like a OS X release
00:20:15 <ais523> ninja is a good name for a box, actually
00:20:23 <ehird> ais523: have you ever heard a cheetah make noise while running?
00:20:29 <ehird> also, yes, but it seems a lil cliche
00:20:47 <ais523> who calls a system "ninja"?
00:20:54 <ehird> ais523: many people, I'd guess
00:20:56 <AnMaster> "tux" for a linux box is cliche though!
00:21:18 <ehird> I wonder if there's a way to cache small writes to an HD
00:21:20 * AnMaster is writing this on the local terminal of tux.lan
00:21:24 <ehird> It writes to somewhere faster first
00:21:27 <ehird> then copies to HD in the bg
00:21:32 <ehird> to avoid pauses due to HD writes
00:21:40 <ehird> e.g. in IM/IRC clients when writing to log
00:21:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. memory caches. The OS does them.
00:21:46 <ais523> ehird: that's every filesystem ever that does that
00:21:55 <ais523> ext4 in particular caches quite a lot, it's come under fire for that
00:21:56 <AnMaster> ais523, not FAT under DOS iirc?
00:21:58 <oklopol> ehird: what these guys said
00:21:58 <ehird> Then why were the pauses a proble mwith SSDs?
00:22:08 <ais523> AnMaster: not by default, but everyone installed smartdrv or something
00:22:12 <ehird> ais523: It looks more and more like I should use ext4 for the OS thang.
00:22:28 <ais523> AnMaster: FAT under DOS didn't cache reads either
00:22:29 <ehird> Still undecided for the home one (everything from small text to multigb files)
00:22:32 <oklopol> annoying how i can shine only every 2 hours or so, and even then i have tons of competition :P
00:22:34 <ais523> so smartdrv made a system a lot faster
00:22:35 <ehird> Suggestions welcome
00:22:38 <coppro> coppro, and my GCC tree
00:23:03 <oklopol> AnMaster: maybe you should get a better client
00:23:16 * coppro hates the evils of most IRC clients' tab-completes
00:23:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: Pvmove, I meant. Really.
00:23:21 <AnMaster> actually the version reply is not on the client I'm on atm.
00:23:26 <ais523> wow, ~/.strigi is 13 GB
00:23:29 <AnMaster> I have two clients connected to the bouncer
00:23:38 <coppro> I have been called "Coboney" more times than I can think of
00:23:47 <ais523> Strigi's the KDE indexing daemon, i think
00:23:49 <ehird> 00:22 ehird: Still undecided for the home one (everything from small text to multigb files) β noone have surgerestions?
00:23:57 <ais523> as opposed to Tracker which is used on Gnome Ubuntu
00:24:07 <pikhq> ehird: ext3 works just fine.
00:24:09 <ais523> I installed both Gnome and KDE, I should just uninstall one of the daemons as I don't need both
00:24:10 <coppro> yeah, you can turn that off
00:24:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I hate all indexing daemons apart from locate
00:24:24 <coppro> open strigi:// in Konqueror I think
00:24:30 <ehird> pikhq: For data? Hmm... I don't think I want journaling...
00:24:39 <ehird> pikhq: Think of the 2GB files!
00:24:52 <AnMaster> ais523, other ones are just overhead that impacts both space and performance.
00:25:13 <ais523> anyway, my backup strategy is interesting
00:25:29 <ais523> it's not just designed to help against broken drives
00:25:33 <ais523> but also against an accidental rm -r .
00:25:51 <ais523> for instance, I have Emacs storing all its backups in a separate directory tree from the files being edited
00:25:54 <ais523> that's come in useful before now
00:26:07 <ais523> started ever since I accidentally deleted the Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler
00:26:14 <ais523> I should reconstruct it sometime
00:26:14 <ehird> ais523: i did that anyway, to reduce clutter
00:26:16 <AnMaster> "This label is the target of a goto from outside of the block containing this label AND this block has an automatic variable with an initializer AND your window wasn't wide enough to read this whole error message"
00:27:06 <AnMaster> "You are comparing two structures that have holes in them" <-- um. Comparing structures?
00:27:32 <ais523> AnMaster: prompts if the rm isn't trivial
00:27:34 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes, that seems odd for a compiler to be able to figure out
00:27:58 <ais523> to be precise, -I prompts once if you specify more than 3 files, or use -r
00:27:59 <coppro> I should probably prefer that to -f...
00:28:20 <coppro> does it still ignore read-only?
00:28:26 <ais523> many people have alias rm = rm -I
00:28:44 <ais523> coppro: you need -f as well to ignore read-onlyness
00:29:12 <ais523> but -rIf is completely legal
00:29:57 <ais523> lowercase i is a lot more prompty than capital I
00:30:06 <ais523> it's effectively a darcs-interface rm
00:32:04 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah darcs is irritatingly unsure of it's own capabilities, feeling a need for asking the user all the time
00:32:20 <ais523> darcs is irritatingly incapable of reading minds
00:32:52 <coppro> I wonder what a Perl implementation of darcs would be like
00:33:17 <AnMaster> coppro, less monads, more line noise.
00:33:25 <pikhq> ehird: YOU WANT JOURNALING.
00:33:33 <ais523> pikhq: but even ext3 has journaling
00:33:46 <pikhq> ais523: And ehird said "I don't think I want journaling".
00:33:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> pikhq: For data? Hmm... I don't think I want journaling...
00:33:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> pikhq: Think of the 2GB files!
00:34:35 * pikhq points at his two 21GiB files.
00:34:38 <ais523> on a disk that large, you'll have to spend days fscking if you have a power cut
00:34:44 <ais523> if you don't have journaling
00:35:09 <pikhq> Why I have losslessly compressed copies of Big Buck Bunny & Elephants Dream, I'm not quite sure.
00:35:16 * AnMaster ponders a portable cfunge for Mac OS 9. Just because.
00:35:20 <coppro> Is there a downside to hournaling?
00:35:25 <AnMaster> somewhat like openssh vs portable openssh
00:35:29 <pikhq> coppro: Very slightly slower.
00:35:38 <AnMaster> except, it won't support windows.
00:35:50 <ais523> oh, yes, there are ext2 drivers for Windows, but not ext3 drivers
00:35:51 <pikhq> But it gets you a significantly more robust filesystem.
00:35:53 <ais523> they aren't official, anyway
00:35:55 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think? Insane enough?
00:36:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway does ick work on pre-OS X MacOS?
00:36:12 <ais523> portable /and/ OS9 only?
00:36:14 <pikhq> ais523: And ext3 can be mounted as ext2?
00:36:18 <coppro> the IFS works pretty well on ext3, even when the disk has journaling, as long as the mount/unmounts are clean
00:36:19 <ais523> also, I haven't tested, but I wouldn't be surprised
00:36:23 <coppro> ext3 is otherwise backwards-compatible
00:36:23 <ais523> pikhq: yes if the journal is up-to-date
00:36:47 <pikhq> Well, yes. Sorry, I should've said: assuming clean mounts.
00:36:52 <ais523> the ext2 standard has a flag saying "don't try to mount as ext2", ext3 uses that flag for "unreplayed journal data"
00:36:56 <ais523> which is not a coincidence at all
00:37:27 <pikhq> That's good design right there.
00:37:44 <coppro> I gave up on hoping for Windows mounts when I turned on extents
00:38:22 <AnMaster> how can anyone be insane enough to use that yet for anything important...
00:38:22 <ais523> they massively reduce the amount of metadata needed for very big files
00:38:36 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't help for me then
00:38:38 <ais523> AnMaster: some of the more up-to-date distros have it as stable
00:38:42 <AnMaster> I mostly have loads of small files
00:38:46 <oklopol> what are you talking about?
00:38:52 <AnMaster> a few kb at most most of the time
00:39:08 <ais523> there's more than one way to arrange data on a drive
00:39:09 <AnMaster> coppro, the online defrag tool is _still_ missing for ext4
00:39:14 <ais523> Windows uses FAT/FAT32/NTFS
00:39:19 <ais523> but there are a lot of other filesystems around too
00:39:20 <AnMaster> I'm going to stay to ext3 and xfs for the next few years.
00:39:39 <ais523> AnMaster: the online defrag tool is _still_ missing for ext3 too...
00:39:48 <oklopol> ais523: yes but what are these like, journaling sounds like the log-structured file systems tannerbaum talks about in MOS
00:39:51 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but it wasn't even promised for it.
00:40:03 <AnMaster> which is a rather large difference.
00:40:04 <ais523> oklopol: journaling means you record what you're doing before you do it
00:40:15 <pikhq> I'm waiting for kernel versions with ext4 marked as stable to be stable in Gentoo, myself.
00:40:18 <ais523> if the system crashes while you're doing it, the log makes it possible to reconstruct the filesystem
00:40:28 <ais523> rather than having to run a full disk-check the next boot like Windows does with scandisk
00:40:32 <coppro> the biggest mistake I made when updating was that ext4 is not compiled by default into the Intrepid kernel, so my kernel couldn't mount /
00:40:44 <ais523> it is compiled into Jaunty by default
00:40:53 <ais523> yes, but Windows still does the on-boot scan anyway
00:41:00 <ais523> and you'd be surprised how many people are still on FAT32
00:41:08 <oklopol> ais523: right, that's kind of a trivial idea tho, so not very useful to me
00:41:16 <ais523> oh, have they updated now?
00:41:26 <ais523> I'm a bit out of touch on windows filesystem scanning programs
00:41:28 <AnMaster> ais523, the name of the tool isn't scandisk in xp it is autochk
00:41:49 <ais523> well, I've seen XP use scandisk
00:41:53 <ais523> going home now, anyway
00:41:54 <pikhq> Win32 is the NT native API.
00:42:09 <pikhq> It's built into the fucking kernel.
00:42:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, win32 is a NT native program itself.
00:42:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:42:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb897447.aspx
00:42:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, just read the first paragraph
00:42:57 <pikhq> In theory, that's how the NT kernel was designed.
00:43:18 <pikhq> Microsoft's formal design and the actual implementation differ, in that Win32 runs in kernelspace.
00:43:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure. But there are apps using this native API. Of which autochk is one
00:44:18 <AnMaster> as is described in the second paragraph
00:44:29 <pikhq> Sounds like very poor terminology.
00:44:42 <pikhq> Sounds more like they mean "system calls".
00:45:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe. Maybe not. But I'm just using the official name of it.
00:45:41 <pikhq> Okay, that's what Microsoft calls it.
00:45:53 <pikhq> Yet another thing that MS does dumb.
00:46:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, we shouldn't call this think MS calls "xp" for xp.
00:46:10 <AnMaster> we should call it Windows NT 6.1
00:46:19 <AnMaster> which iirc is the internal version number
00:46:37 <AnMaster> when it comes to the getwinverex (or whatever) win32 api functions
00:46:54 <pikhq> It's Windows NT 5.1, but yeah.
00:47:13 <coppro> "initialization Blue Screen"
00:47:26 <coppro> probably not what they really meant
00:47:30 <pikhq> I'm also of the opinion that Windows 95 should've been called Windows 4.0. ;)
00:47:30 <AnMaster> coppro, um... never used /sos for flag in boot.ini?
00:48:04 <coppro> in the context, they mean the screen that comes up when the disk check runs
00:48:07 <AnMaster> coppro, it shows a blue screen with text instead of the xp logo then
00:48:16 <coppro> not an actual Blue Screen
00:48:17 <AnMaster> and yes it is the same for disk check
00:48:29 <AnMaster> coppro, that screen is actually blue though!
00:48:30 <coppro> Blue Screens are darker
00:50:02 <coppro> yes, I'll agree the screen is blue. But not Blue
00:52:24 <pikhq> Ah, Windows NT. The MS OS with decent design fouled up by poor coders and poorer additions...
00:52:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, to be fair: 2000 and xp weren't *too* bad.
00:53:01 <AnMaster> I mean I consider the operating systems
00:53:14 <AnMaster> 9x and vista I consider "jokes"
00:53:26 <AnMaster> haven't heard enough about 7 yet to be sure
00:53:33 <coppro> actually, ME isn't a joke
00:53:37 <AnMaster> coppro, that is 9x technically
00:54:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: The API still has ended up being really, really screwy, because of its lack of sensible design after the fact.
00:54:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, at least POSIX only got a *few* such quirks
00:54:56 <pikhq> And shockingly few for being 30ish years old now.
00:54:57 <AnMaster> and them I'm specifically thinking about mkstemp() tmpnam() and so on. And signal()
00:56:02 <AnMaster> mkstemp, mkostemp, mkdtemp are more or less sane. tempnam, tmpnam, tmpfile are not.
00:56:11 <pikhq> ReactOS seems rather nice.
00:56:37 <pikhq> Shame they've got to deal with the Win32 API quirks, but they seem to be doing more with the NT kernel's ability to support multiple APIs.
00:56:44 <AnMaster> Actually that's a lie. Genera wins over Plan9
00:56:54 <pikhq> ReactOS 1.0 might make me enjoy using a Windows-esque OS.
00:57:33 <pikhq> Assuming that I can use it mostly using the POSIX personality, of course. :p
00:57:34 <AnMaster> Error 500: The qualifier "enjoy" can not be used for the "windows" noun.
00:57:58 <pikhq> s/personality/subsystem/
00:58:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, "personality" is Linux terminology right?
00:58:50 <AnMaster> as in linux32 on multilib 64-bit systems
00:59:00 <pikhq> Unix-ish terminology.
00:59:04 <AnMaster> Linux tux.lan 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 #2 Thu Apr 16 19:43:25 CEST 2009 x86_64 AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3300+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
00:59:08 <AnMaster> Linux tux.lan 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 #2 Thu Apr 16 19:43:25 CEST 2009 i686 AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3300+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
00:59:30 <pikhq> Though linux32 on x86_64 isn't using a personality, just changing a very small handful of system calls.
00:59:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, actually it is. Running a 32-bit app isn't though
01:00:14 <AnMaster> int personality(unsigned long persona);
01:00:45 -!- oklokol has joined.
01:02:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, linux32 is a symlink to setarch btw
01:02:40 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/N8i5es35.html
01:03:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: Shell script that calls setarch, you mean.
01:03:47 <AnMaster> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 1 dec 09.27 /usr/bin/linux32 -> setarch
01:03:56 <AnMaster> it detects what name it is invoked with
01:05:02 <pikhq> It *was* a shell script once. I'm sure of it.
01:07:11 <AnMaster> "To avoid performance problems you should keep the following guidelines in mind, which are separated by architecture:
01:07:11 <AnMaster> IA-32, IntelΒ 64, and IA-64 architectures:
01:07:11 <AnMaster> Do not access or create data at large intervals that are separated by exactly 2n (for example, 1 KB, 2 KB, 4 KB, 16 KB, 32 KB, 64 KB, 128 KB, 512 KB, 1 MB, 2 MB, 4 MB, 8 MB, etc.)."
01:07:37 <AnMaster> why is accessing two structures separated by 1 KB of memory a bad idea exactly..
01:15:24 <pikhq> Um. What in the world does Intel's caching setup look like?
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01:16:32 <AnMaster> oh maybe that is used for associativity at L1?
01:17:02 <pikhq> I guess I could see that making sense for L1.
01:17:35 <pikhq> I can understand some of the specific intervals...
01:17:42 <AnMaster> yes for L1 it would, not for L2 though
01:17:43 <pikhq> Once you're dealing with page boundaries, that is.
01:17:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, that only happens at 4 kB and above
01:18:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, but a L1 wouldn't be 4KB
01:19:57 <AnMaster> you are talking about a few cache lines
01:20:10 <AnMaster> on AMD64 they are 64 bytes iirc
01:20:19 <AnMaster> not sure how large they are on intel CPUs
01:25:57 <oklokol> AnMaster: Do not access or create data at large intervals that are separated by exactly 2n (for example, 1 KB, 2 KB, 4 KB, 16 KB, 32 KB, 64 KB, 128 KB, 512 KB, 1 MB, 2 MB, 4 MB, 8 MB, etc.)." <<< obviously those would all be in the same cache slot
01:26:15 <oklokol> that's like basic cacheology
01:27:48 <oklokol> usually the actual "set" part of a cache is small
01:28:11 <oklokol> and you have multiple small sets hashed into based on the address
01:28:44 <coppro> I understand how caching works less than I understand timecube
01:29:57 <oklokol> logically the cache should be a set
01:30:15 <oklokol> that it would just be a set of data currently in cache, and stuff would just either be in the set, or not be
01:30:20 <oklokol> but in practise, this is not doable
01:31:28 <oklokol> so what you do is first take certain index bits from the address (you can use any hash, but clearly it can't take much time to compute, because the idea is to save time) and that address gives you a set to use
01:31:37 <oklokol> and that set will be fully random access
01:32:11 <oklokol> dunno if that cleared it up, point is what AnMaster said seems kinda trivial, no reason to question intel's caches because of it.
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01:34:29 <oklokol> i guess the basic idea of timecube is trivial too, the 24h day can be split into 4 pieces.
01:34:49 <oklokol> or maybe that was not the most important part, dunno.
01:35:11 <AnMaster> oklokol, yes I know how a cache works
01:35:26 <oklokol> okay, then why the confusion?
01:36:30 <oklokol> i'll just assume you didn't know, i'll feel intelligent and you don't need to answer :)
01:37:04 <pikhq> I don't pretend to know anything about how CPUs are actually implemented.
01:37:23 <pikhq> My knowledge stops a bit before assembly gets converted to bytes.
01:37:32 <AnMaster> oklokol, I think there are better ways to do it.
01:38:40 <oklokol> AnMaster: and i mean that as a question, all i know about caches is a few slides for a processor architecture course.
01:38:48 <AnMaster> oklokol, even if you exclude the clear way of making all RAM register file speed (which has a downside in the form of the cost) it would be trivial to base it on a bit more than just least significant bits of the address
01:38:55 <oklokol> (not really the main topic obviously)
01:39:05 <AnMaster> you could take a bit or two from higher up
01:39:47 <oklokol> the lsb'er bits you take the better
01:40:07 <AnMaster> oklokol, since many common access patterns have a 2^n unit stride.
01:40:10 <oklokol> taking a few from higher up wouldn't change the current issue, but overall it would be a worse solution
01:41:03 <oklokol> the bits would be the same?
01:41:15 <AnMaster> not if you take the right ones due
01:41:37 <oklokol> you take the lsb'est bits you can, usually
01:41:52 <AnMaster> but rather a few bits above, like the ones important for a common stride of 4 kb
01:41:55 <oklokol> from that to right is the address inside the block
01:42:02 <AnMaster> you very often operate at two pages
01:42:07 <AnMaster> equally from the start of both
01:42:24 <AnMaster> that is in fact very very common
01:43:02 <oklokol> so you're basically saying caches shouldn't have the basic block structure at all?
01:43:15 <oklokol> that you store stuff in blocks of size 2^n
01:44:08 <oklokol> anyway, that's what the set part of the cache is for, that you can do something like that
01:44:17 <AnMaster> I'm just saying having same associativity for the first cacheline of any two different pages is rather bad
01:44:42 <oklokol> right, and as a correction you suggest what?
01:44:48 <oklokol> taking a few bits from MSB?
01:45:17 <AnMaster> well possibly a different scheme
01:45:37 <AnMaster> lets do unary xor on the address. intercal style
01:46:20 <oklokol> or wut. usually the idea is when you have an address TT..TII..IBB..B, the II..I part is used as the hash, to determine the set, then TT..T is used to find the correct slot in the set, or to see it's not there, then BB..B is used to address within the block.
01:47:03 <oklokol> AnMaster: anyway it's true it might make sense to use a more random hash, that i'm not disagreeing with.
01:47:06 <AnMaster> how often have you not done memcpy between two page aligned adresses.
01:47:28 <oklokol> sure, but that's not a problem.
01:48:39 <oklokol> i mean there aren't going to be conflicts if you just use a few pages of stuff and you need to use the same part of each page at a time
01:49:21 <oklokol> the problem is when you have many pages, and use the same part of each
01:49:31 <oklokol> even if you don't actually explore the other parts of the page
01:49:34 <AnMaster> oklokol, what about array[1024][1024]
01:49:42 <AnMaster> you are going into issues there
01:49:45 <oklokol> AnMaster: things like that compilers can optimize.
01:50:17 <AnMaster> oklokol, I'm doing random-connected access in it though
01:50:58 <AnMaster> oklokol, I need power of two for fast range checks (bit shift)
01:51:00 <oklokol> that may actually be a weak spot.
01:51:20 <oklokol> usually you just stride one way at a time
01:51:26 <AnMaster> oklokol, I also need power of two for various other reasons
01:51:30 <oklokol> but funges can have local patterns of both kind
01:52:00 <oklokol> well anyway, i don't claim to have given this stuff any thought, and i most certainly don't know anything about it :)
01:52:05 <AnMaster> total size needs to be a multiple of 64 bytes for exampl
01:53:53 <oklokol> also i'm not exactly that interested in computer architecture in general, kind of an inexact science
01:58:06 <oklokol> i remember deciding to go to sleep at 23:00
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03:14:47 <Sgeo> Is there a way, given discrete points that have connections north, south, east, and west to other discrete points, and each point knows only of itself and its direct neighbors, to make sure that the whole structure makes sense?
03:17:24 <oerjan> do they know the distances between them?
03:17:40 <oklopol> what does that mean makes sense
03:18:31 <oerjan> i assume he means that they can be put as coordinates on a flat map...
03:19:33 <Sgeo> The distance between a point and its neighbor is one
03:20:18 <oklopol> Sgeo: just plot them into an array
03:20:29 <oerjan> in that case it should be simple: pick a point, give it coordinates (0,0), trace through the whole structure assigning coordinates, and checking that any point you revisit matches
03:20:54 <Sgeo> I want points to be able to add themselves to the structure just knowing one other point
03:21:17 <oerjan> each point needs to know its coordinate of course
03:21:41 <oklopol> Sgeo: it may have to traverse an arbitrary amount of links to know whether a square is free
03:21:41 <oerjan> the only remaining problem i see is if two points get the same coordinates
03:21:56 <oerjan> which is equivalent to what oklopol said
03:22:35 <oerjan> yeah, and also to find its _other_ new neighbors
03:22:52 <oerjan> say if (0,0) and (0,2) already exist and you add (0,1) from (0,0)
03:23:12 <oerjan> then it could require a long path to check that you need to connect to (0,2) as well
03:23:30 <oklopol> so basically there's no local way to do it, i guess that was the question
03:23:39 <oklopol> as it is algorithmically trivial otherwise
03:25:36 <oklopol> so, anyone know a good chess ai library?
03:25:38 <oerjan> so you are going to need some overarching structure.
03:26:22 <oerjan> each point is a square inside a 2x2 square inside a 4x4 square etc. until whatever fills all of it
03:26:23 <oklopol> you mean like, if you only add next to existing nodes, oerjan?
03:26:50 <oerjan> then you should need only O(log n) time to fix things
03:27:12 <oerjan> also, i don't know anything about chess ai libraries
03:27:26 <oklopol> oerjan: also he could just have the NxN array..................
03:27:46 <oklopol> then again i guess that was specifically forbidden
03:27:50 <oerjan> yeah but that could require much more memory
03:28:07 <oklopol> welllll i guess, but the distances were one
03:28:10 <oerjan> a hierarchical structure should only have logarithmic overhead
03:28:12 <oklopol> so maybe less than you'd think?
03:28:25 <oklopol> algorithmically less i think.
03:28:42 <oerjan> while an array might need n^2 for n points
03:29:12 <oerjan> and also, may need to extend the array by copying
03:29:34 <Sgeo> Waiving the requirement for it to make sense might be more fun, actually
03:30:15 <oerjan> no, i don't think it's O(1) because adding 1 cell can add an entire new row and column, every time
03:30:25 <oklopol> Sgeo: wait sorry also i could actually tell you.
03:30:42 <oerjan> or, rather, *row _or_ column
03:31:23 <oklopol> Sgeo: the meaning is somewhat as follows, amortized O(f(n)) means on average the function takes O(f(n)) steps
03:31:39 <oklopol> but only somewhat, the actual definition i cannot really explain in human terms atm
03:32:01 <oerjan> Sgeo: amortized O(1) space means it could allocate in large blocks, but would still only allocate one new cell per step on average
03:32:29 <Sgeo> What's non-amortized?
03:32:43 <oklopol> oerjan: i think it's O(1) if you make the whole thingie double as big when you need one more in size
03:32:47 <oerjan> non-amortized would be an upper bound for every single step
03:33:19 <oerjan> oklopol: nope, a zig-zag diagonal pattern grows by n cells every step on average, no matter how you do it
03:34:02 <oklopol> oerjan: i guess that's somewhat true.
03:35:22 <oklopol> i mean, there's a subtle hint of truth in it.
03:37:00 <oklopol> Sgeo: actual definition of amortized cost of O(f(n)) is if you do n operations, you will not have done more stuff than a non-amortized O(f(n)) function would've done for the same n operations.
03:37:16 <oerjan> Sgeo: for example a good garbage collection algorithm should use time at most O(allocated space), but if it's not very good at being incremental it can still cause a large pause. so amortized time is good, but may still be too much non-amortized for real-time purposes.
03:37:44 <oerjan> *a large pause at a single allocation
03:39:13 <oklopol> this channel is too small for the two of us, it sometimes feels.
03:39:49 <oklopol> i should probably make it smaller, it's like size 18 because i used to use this computer laying on my armchair
03:39:52 <oerjan> oklopol: i just thought that if we both explain it, it will be easier to understand
03:39:59 <oklopol> which is more like a leathery bed than a chair
03:40:07 <oklopol> oerjan: ah, yes probably :P
03:41:22 <oerjan> courier 10 point, here
03:42:10 <oklopol> actually was just 16, but still pretty massive, especially as this is a tiny screen
03:42:12 <oerjan> i don't think i've changed it
03:42:44 <oklopol> i usually just change to courier, size doesn't matter
03:43:13 <oerjan> i maximized window height though
03:43:56 <oklopol> you mean you double clicked it so it's fullscreen?
03:44:14 <oklopol> top to bottom and size doesn't matter... where are all the penis jokes
03:44:15 <oerjan> i like to be able to see at least two windows at a time
03:45:44 <oklopol> let's /part this place and go eat some cod
03:46:08 <oerjan> the timing is somewhat wrong for getting cod here
03:47:11 <oerjan> maybe i should go to a fish restaurant tomorrow, except the only one i know of has just gone bankrupt
03:47:21 <oerjan> it's the middle of the night
03:47:24 <oklopol> what's wrong with your town
03:47:53 <oerjan> also, this is not that close to the center, i would need a taxi
03:48:38 <oklopol> i was supposed to say something clever about you know one place burning and another going bankrupt, but then i lost my brain of thought.
03:48:38 <oerjan> i'm sure i could get some food at 7/eleven if i did so, but i doubt they have cod :D
03:49:05 <oerjan> the bankruptcy is probably due to the crisis
03:49:14 <oerjan> the fires are a more long-term problem
03:49:19 <oklopol> some everywhereable fast food restaurant?
03:49:47 <oerjan> financial crisis. if you read or watched news you might have heard about it
03:50:00 <oklopol> well sure i have, but i didn't know it actually existed
03:50:38 <oerjan> hasn't hit norway hardest, but i still notice an unusual number of abandoned store fronts
03:51:27 <oerjan> i vaguely recall not finding 7/11 listed in finland when i checked
03:51:32 <oklopol> continuing my earlier message - got distracted - i just assumed mankind was having their period or something
03:52:16 <oerjan> in norway at least, they are about the only thing with a 24 hour open policy
03:52:26 <oklopol> and we don't have a financial crisis either. at least i don't. i don't believe in that sort of nonsense
03:53:54 <oklopol> we have tons of things with a 24hop
03:54:14 <oklopol> but they just serve food, no cod
03:54:26 <oerjan> i don't quite recall the english word for such small shops
03:54:47 <oerjan> they sell mostly snacks, some other food
03:55:16 <oerjan> i - don't recall hearing that word
03:58:56 <oerjan> i don't know the exact opening hour laws in norway, they seem to get gradually relaxed most of the time
03:59:33 <oerjan> they are stricter for big shops, and for anyone selling alcohol
04:00:01 <oerjan> while small shops selling mainly food can be open at any time
04:00:35 <oklopol> how about shops that just buy alcohol?
04:01:00 <oerjan> i'll try and remember if i see any :D
04:01:52 <oklopol> "hello do you buy alcohol here?"
04:02:09 <pikhq> In the US, 7/11 is just one of many places that are open 24/7...
04:02:30 <oerjan> i suppose their main problem would be that only a few people could legally sell to them :D
04:02:35 <pikhq> Freaking Walmart tends to be open 24/7. Y'know, that land of everything that's cheap crap.
04:03:07 <oklopol> pikhq: i love your country :|
04:03:47 <oerjan> big stores must be closed at least on sundays here
04:04:20 <pikhq> And, since it's the US, it's got more parking lot than building.
04:04:25 <oklopol> oerjan: maybe people can sell alcohol in stores that can themselves sell alcohol, you know, if it's like an area of effect thing.
04:05:18 <oklopol> pikhq: well, i like throwing balls on parking lots
04:05:49 <oklopol> well, i mean those indoors ones.
04:06:22 <oerjan> trondheim does have some mall-like places with lots of parking in the city outskirts. (as well as some smaller ones with no parking in the centre.)
04:07:02 <oerjan> (ok not _entirely_ no parking, but still...)
04:07:46 <pikhq> Mall? No, just a department store.
04:07:51 <pikhq> One that's larger than most malls.
04:07:59 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure on the distinction
04:08:30 <oerjan> there are department stores too, like Ikea
04:08:48 <oerjan> er, if that word means what i think
04:09:01 <oklopol> it does if it means what i think.
04:09:42 <oklopol> google definitely doesn't know what i think it is
04:10:16 <MizardX> Do you know what you think it is?
04:10:22 <pikhq> Walmarts tend to have about 10,000 square meters of floor space.
04:11:26 <oerjan> now if i had a sense of size, i might be able to tell how big 10,000 square meters is, but i don't.
04:11:36 <oklopol> oerjan: take its square root
04:11:49 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, that's just a "Walmart Discount Store". Most of them are Walmart Supercenters, which average *18,000* square meters of floor space...
04:12:00 <pikhq> Those also contain a full supermarket.
04:12:04 <oerjan> now i just need to know how long 100 meters are. whoops.
04:13:54 <oklopol> oerjan: like three blue whales
04:15:37 <oklopol> i'd be so big and i could go so deep you know.
04:15:39 <oerjan> i see Obs! listed under wp's hypermarket article, that's the closest such place from here
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04:19:24 * pikhq observes that those appear more akin to malls...
04:22:06 <pikhq> Oh, Wikipedia's being dumb.
04:22:11 <oerjan> they have sort of grown, the one close to here was expanded a lot and now includes many shops besides the main Coop Obs! chain
04:22:16 <pikhq> It shows links to malls *containing* an Obs!.
04:22:49 <oerjan> i guess that's what they are
04:23:26 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Syd Take a floor of that. That's a small Walmart store.
04:23:39 <oerjan> I'm talking about City Lade btw, didn't know it had its own article
04:23:47 <oerjan> and City Syd is at the other end of town
04:24:18 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1604
04:24:19 <oerjan> (the first one is within walking distance from where i live)
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04:30:00 <Sgeo> They're noodles! You don't compress and encrypt them, you eat them!
04:44:12 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1653
04:44:35 <Sgeo> "The cardinality of the set of counties we're banned from is greater than the cardinality of the set of counties"
04:45:23 <coppro> looks too much like CVS
04:47:14 <coppro> http://www.circleversussquare..com
04:49:21 <oerjan> you mean, CVS looks too much like T&R.
04:53:36 <coppro> but there's no dates on T&R so I can't tell
04:53:50 <coppro> also I read CVS first, so it wins
04:55:04 <oerjan> basically, i read T&R a year ago, so it's at least that old
04:56:09 <oerjan> "Triangle and Robert is a webcomic by Patrick Shaughnessy that ran from August 1999 to September 2007."
04:58:05 <oerjan> "Triangle and Robert won Best Minimalist Comic in the 2001 Web Cartoonist's Choice Awards.
05:09:39 <Sgeo> "We need wackiness." "Robert, we're already designing a system to launch HAM into ORBIT with a RAILGUN."
05:11:53 <Sgeo> "We need a heat-resistant ham glaze, not the destruction of a six-mile radius." "It was not a radius. The damage was limited to a single twelve-mile line segment." "What's this now? I just meant in general." "Then mind not."
05:21:34 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1783 has a bit of an overview (spoilers, obviously)
05:23:40 <Sgeo> Well, not really
05:29:02 <Sgeo> "Oh, we're escaping? How do I help?" "We're escaping FROM you."
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14:51:51 <ehird> 16:28:26 <ais523> many people have alias rm = rm -I
14:51:53 <ehird> [ehird:~] % rm -rf *
14:51:53 <ehird> zsh: sure you want to delete all the files in /Users/ehird [yn]?
14:52:28 <ais523> zsh has a builtin version of the alias?
14:52:38 <ehird> ais523: it just specialcases *, i think
14:52:56 <ehird> 16:34:38 <ais523> on a disk that large, you'll have to spend days fscking if you have a power cut
14:52:56 <ehird> 16:34:44 <ais523> if you don't have journaling
14:53:03 <ehird> fsck takes days anyway when ubuntu decides to run it because WHY NOT
14:53:25 <ehird> 16:35:09 <pikhq> Why I have losslessly compressed copies of Big Buck Bunny & Elephants Dream, I'm not quite sure.
14:53:26 <ais523> I love the arguments that the makers of one particular version of rm went to to try to prove it was UNIX-compliant
14:53:33 <ais523> they wanted to specially handle rm -rf /
14:53:36 <ehird> pikhq: here, have a 200gb uncompressed movie: http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/wiki/index.php?title=SitaSites
14:53:59 <ais523> in the end, they successfully argued that they were allowed to treat it differently because rm is allowed to treat . and .. differently, and rm -rf / necessarily deletes .
14:54:31 <ehird> 16:35:50 <ais523> oh, yes, there are ext2 drivers for Windows, but not ext3 drivers
14:54:37 <ais523> (I think that argument might be slightly bogus; if you have two nested chroots, it's possible to be in a directory outside /)
14:54:45 <ehird> http://www.fs-driver.org/ handles ext3
14:54:47 <ais523> ehird: they have full ext3 drivers now, which work with journaling?
14:54:53 <ehird> Linux Ext3 volumes can also be accessed. To do that, please read the FAQ section.
14:55:03 <ehird> i guess it writes w/ only ext2 features
14:55:16 <ehird> but the only use for those drivers is reading, really
14:55:24 <ais523> <FAQ> "The Ext2 file system driver of the Ext2 IFS software will refuse mounting an Ext3 file system which contains data in its journal, just like older Linux kernels which have no Ext3 support. In this way data loss and damaging the file system is avoided when the journal is subsequently replayed. So you can access only those Ext3 volumes with the Ext2 IFS software which have been cleanly dismounted beforehand."
14:55:38 <ais523> it can only read an ext3 drive which happens to be instantaneously legal ext2
14:55:42 <ais523> i.e. has an empty journal
14:55:52 <Deewiant> I.e. it's essentially not ext3. :-P
14:55:53 <ehird> is ext4's on-disk format stable?
14:55:58 <fizzie> There is a RM_STAR_SILENT option you can set for zsh to disable that speciality.
14:56:04 <ehird> since it's in the kernel
14:56:18 <ehird> Date resolutionNanosecond
14:56:24 <ehird> now THAT'S excessive!
14:56:57 <ais523> imagine a compile using make on a really fast computer
14:57:05 <fizzie> Btrfs is in the kernel and doesn't have a stable disk format. At least I think the kernel-config help said so. It was very much "I'm so experimental I will eat all your data *munch* *munch*" warningsy.
14:57:12 <ehird> ais523: define really fast
14:57:26 <ais523> fast enough that microsecond timestamps aren't good enough to see if something's been compiled or not
14:57:28 <Deewiant> ehird: Fast enough that nanoseconds matter.
14:57:52 <ais523> I can imagine compile steps happening in less than a microsecond
14:58:03 <ais523> some of the make rules in the C-INTERCAL build are just symlinking
14:58:13 <ehird> ais523: with a faster compiler than gcc you could prolly do it for a c project
14:58:16 <ehird> just a very dumb compiler
14:58:25 <ais523> and if you have an in-memory filesystem, I can imagine the creation of a symlink in less than a microsecond
14:58:28 <ehird> could run more or less instantly
14:58:46 <ehird> also, just use /tmp with tmpfs, nice and simple
14:58:49 <ehird> oh, you'd need a fast make too
14:58:59 <ehird> but I think you could do it, on really high end machines, today
14:59:28 <Deewiant> Compiling two files in less than a microsecond? I doubt it.
14:59:52 <ehird> <ais523> the ext2 standard has a flag saying "don't try to mount as ext2"
15:00:07 <Deewiant> I guess that's enabled for ext4.
15:00:14 <ehird> <meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/plain>
15:00:26 <Deewiant> [ 3.529311] EXT2-fs: sda3: couldn't mount because of unsupported optional features (40).
15:00:29 <ehird> 16:38:22 <AnMaster> how can anyone be insane enough to use that yet for anything important...
15:00:30 <ais523> #!/bin/cat at the top of a perl program
15:00:55 <ehird> This proposal was accepted, and on June 28, 2006 Theodore Ts'o, the ext3 maintainer, announced the new plan of development for ext4.[3] A preliminary development snapshot of ext4 was included in version 2.6.19 of the Linux kernel. On Oct 11, 2008, the patches that mark ext4 as stable code were merged in the Linux 2.6.28 source code repositories,[4] denoting the end of the development phase and recommending ext4 adoption. Kernel 2.6.28, containing the ext
15:00:57 <ehird> 4 filesystem, was finally released on December 25, 2008.[5]
15:01:04 <fizzie> Software-suspend used to have Very Big Warnings back when it was experimental, too. Nowadays there's just a rather sedate warning about not touching the filesystems between suspend and resume.
15:01:06 <ais523> well, it's not surprising you couldn't mount it as ext3, if you have at least one extent on the system, and you probably do
15:01:31 <Deewiant> I was just pondering that "don't try to mount as ext2" flag.
15:01:37 <ehird> fizzie: does linux do hybrid suspend/hibernate?
15:01:41 <ais523> put there for forwards compatibility, obviously
15:01:48 <ehird> we turn all the fans off, go into suspendy mode, and gradually write it all to disk
15:01:53 <ehird> then kill ourselves
15:01:56 <ehird> os x does that, it works nicely
15:02:05 <ais523> some people like it, especially for a desktop
15:02:06 <ehird> fast suspend/unsuspend with less power usage
15:02:08 <fizzie> The "s2both" does pretty much that.
15:02:10 <Deewiant> ais523: Yes, but my dmesg indicates that it's either not set for ext4 or that the ext2 driver looks at something else before that flag.
15:02:20 <ehird> 16:39:09 <AnMaster> coppro, the online defrag tool is _still_ missing for ext4
15:02:21 <ehird> 16:39:20 <AnMaster> I'm going to stay to ext3 and xfs for the next few years.
15:02:26 <Deewiant> Since it didn't say "couldn't mount because the flag says not to"
15:02:33 <ais523> for a laptop you have the problem of lots of hard drive activity immediately after suspend
15:02:44 <ais523> which is not good if you want to carry the laptop around and suspended it because of that
15:02:48 <Deewiant> Or maybe that was the flag, the message just wasn't obvious about it.
15:03:01 <ais523> I was really scared when I carried my laptop across campus in the middle of a distro upgrade
15:03:18 <ais523> it was even fun when I REISUBed in the middle of the upgrade, due to a hardware problem
15:03:33 <ehird> I have no idea how i'll install ubuntu with my really goddamn complex partition setup
15:03:35 <fizzie> I use s2ram nowadays with my desktop, since the boot-up from real hibernation is a bit on the slow side; I guess I could use s2both instead, but I'm not so very worried about a power-failure causing horrible complications.
15:03:48 <ehird> Can you do partitioning in the livecd, and then just tell the installer "Um, just use this fstab"?
15:04:00 <ais523> I'm not sure, quite possibly
15:04:10 <ais523> you might need to use the alternate install disk, that lets you do all sorts of weird things
15:04:16 <ehird> not a separate disk
15:04:21 <ehird> just a different install option nowadays
15:04:27 <ais523> there are two CDs to install from, the main one and the alternate one
15:04:41 <ais523> the alternate ones contain the stuff for doing weird stuff at installation, but fewer packages, IRC
15:04:41 <ehird> the ubuntu livecd has an alt install option iirc
15:04:47 <ehird> I want full packages
15:04:53 <ais523> you get them from the Internet later
15:04:55 <ais523> they just aren't on the CD
15:05:14 <Ilari> Does XFS still have that truly braindead kill-file-contents-on-crash misfeature? Does it get move-over-replacement right even w.r.t. system crashes?
15:05:29 <ais523> ah, no, it's the same packages
15:05:34 <ais523> it has a text-based installer rather than a graphical one
15:05:38 <ais523> which can handle more weird cases
15:05:53 <ais523> (the reason it's text-based is in case the installer can't get the graphics going without manual intervention, it seems)
15:05:56 <ehird> ais523: it's just that my current planned setup is that /home is a unionfs where .anything goes to /aux/ehird/dotfiles and everything else is on the main HD, except /home/ehird/local is binded to /aux/ehird/local
15:06:02 <ehird> not the simplest setup
15:06:08 <fizzie> Debian-installer lets one configure horribly complicated raid/LVM setups; but I've only installed Ubuntu long ago with a very standard "here, use this partition" fashion, so I don't know about the partitioning.
15:06:14 <ehird> maybe /aux should be /var/home
15:06:18 <ehird> in analogy to /var/tmp
15:06:36 <ais523> if you're only messing inside /home, then couldn't you install, then mess with the fstab by hand afterwards
15:06:43 <fizzie> Unionfs is not in the mainline kernel, so configuring that "correctly" during the installation sounds tricky. But certainly you can mess it up later.
15:06:44 <ais523> then delete all the old dotfiles?
15:06:50 <ais523> wiping the dotfiles isn't a problem on a clean install
15:07:45 <ehird> ais523: well, I suppose. I have other odd setup thingies though.
15:07:52 <ehird> Like /tmp as tempfs.
15:07:59 * ais523 laughs at Wubi's advertising: 1. Select a new password. 2. Click install. 3. There is no three.
15:07:59 <ehird> I'd rather get it right first time than clean it up later
15:08:15 <ehird> fizzie: ubuntu has unionfs
15:08:17 <fizzie> And /tmp is the one place you can safely clean up even post-installation. :p
15:08:19 <ais523> I think Wubi's good for its target audience
15:08:22 <ehird> but on the subject of Wubi
15:08:27 <ehird> every time I turn someone to ubuntu
15:08:29 <fizzie> I guess the live-cd would, at the very least, yes.
15:08:35 <ehird> I have to tell them to ignore the Ubuntu livecd windows-autostart
15:08:38 <ehird> which advertises wubi
15:08:44 <ehird> as "install without partitioning" or sth
15:08:55 <ehird> then I get to explain why they shouldn't use it, etc etc etc
15:09:02 <ehird> and it's a bloody load of fuss for an unuseful feature
15:09:03 <fizzie> They really should get union-mounting done properly; there's apparently been talk on doing it on the VFS level (like mount --bind is done), which (as far as I could figure out) was the reason aufs2 was very steadfastly rejected for kernel-inclusion.
15:10:00 <ais523> the feature = almost impossible to get wrong even if you don't know what you're doing
15:10:06 <fizzie> I think good old Slackware, in ages past, had a "install into a file on a FAT filesystem, which is then loop-mounted as ext2" option.
15:10:23 <ais523> creates a subdirectory under C:\ that's the Ubuntu filesystem
15:10:23 <ehird> fizzie: installs ubuntu by making the filesystem a folder in the ntfs windows partition
15:10:30 <ehird> it's slow and ties you to windows.
15:10:34 <ais523> and tells Windows it's a Windows application
15:10:39 <ehird> ais523: so is the livecd installer, as far as impossible to get wrong goes
15:10:50 <ehird> my instructions to the technically illiterate are "click next and read the text"
15:10:52 <ais523> ehird: not so, you can accidentally wipe the Windows partition like that
15:10:55 <fizzie> Does it use separate files under NTFS, then?
15:11:06 <ais523> you end up with an NTFS Ubuntu tree, I think
15:11:10 <ehird> ais523: oh, in the most recent case it was a new laptop
15:11:14 <ehird> so Vista was unwanted
15:11:20 <ehird> so the wiping was not a problem
15:11:23 <ais523> oh, over here people generally dual-boot
15:11:43 <ais523> I've actually got relatively good at securing Vista
15:11:45 <fizzie> At least Slackware had a good excuse for using a loop-mounted ext2 image; can't see that thing working very well on a FAT filesystem.
15:11:54 <ais523> as in, worse than people who know what they're doing, but better than people who don't
15:11:57 <ehird> I think ubuntu fills all this guy's needs, prolly
15:12:10 <ehird> ais523: what do people use the windows partition for?
15:12:27 <ais523> also, it's used as a sandbox
15:12:34 <ais523> in case the Linux side catches a virus
15:12:40 <ais523> only the Linux side connects to the Internet
15:12:46 <ais523> the Windows doesn't, because it's less secure
15:12:51 <ais523> and all the important stuff's stored there
15:13:35 <fizzie> Out of curiosity... how does it do device files on an NTFS file system? (Although I guess it wouldn't really need to, much, with udev-handled tmpfs /dev. Still.)
15:13:44 <ehird> ais523: so, no shitty university stuff that needs windows?
15:13:54 <ehird> that's good, since he got it for going to uni with
15:14:50 <fizzie> We have around here a couple of horribly horrible administrative webblications that are strictly IE-only; but since most of the workstations around here are Linux systems, there's a Windows Terminal Server box you can "rdesktop" in to use those.
15:15:31 <ais523> ehird: there isn't exactly
15:15:43 <ais523> there's WebCT, which is truly awful, but it runs just as badly in Windows as it does in Linux
15:15:50 <ehird> ais523: apart from the windows-based policy things? like antiviru
15:15:50 <ais523> being a rather badly written webapp
15:16:01 <ais523> ehird: they didn't say "windows-based", they just said antivirus
15:16:08 <ehird> ais523: windows-based as in without thought of other OSes
15:16:15 <ehird> all sane people will summarily ignore the clause, ofc
15:16:25 <ais523> oh, I meet both the letter and the spirit of the rules
15:30:31 <ehird> "Frequent television portrayals of Christians as absurd make it more difficult for believers to defend themselves, a national journalist has said. "
15:30:31 <ehird> http://www.christian.org.uk/news/20090420/tv-sends-message-that-christians-are-nutters/
15:30:34 <ehird> Bahahahahahahahaha
15:31:46 <ehird> hahaha, another article on there: "BBC portrays pro-lifers as murderous terrorists"
15:32:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:34:02 <ehird> Have you ever thought Tetris(R) was evil because it wouldnβt send you that straight βIβ brick you needed in order to clear four rows at the same time? Well Tetris(R) probably isnβt evil, but Bastet certainly is. >:-) Bastet stands for βbastard tetrisβ, and is a simple ncurses-based Tetris(R) clone for Linux. Unlike normal Tetris(R), however, Bastet does not choose your next brick at random. Instead, Bastet uses a special algorithm designed to
15:34:05 <ehird> choose the worst brick possible. As you can imagine, playing Bastet can be a very frustrating experience! β http://fph.altervista.org/prog/bastet.shtml
15:34:25 <ehird> Ye olde, like your face.
15:35:05 <ehird> http://iseverythingonlineyet.com/
15:35:15 <ais523> does it say yes or no?
15:35:29 <ehird> ais523: it says more than either.
15:35:39 <ehird> it has information, see.
15:35:44 <ehird> sites used to do that
15:36:00 <ehird> it works fine in w3m.
15:36:16 <ais523> does that work in w3m, I wonder?
15:36:16 <ehird> because my browser doesn't render them
15:36:25 <Deewiant> I looked at the source, though.
15:36:26 <ais523> ehird: isn't that standards-incompliant?
15:36:36 <ais523> people are going to have to resort to javascript blink to be portable, now!
15:36:44 <ehird> it's not incompliant
15:36:50 <ehird> browsers can render elements however they want in html4
15:37:05 <ais523> so they render blink as not blinking
15:37:22 <ais523> someone should make a browser which renders everything except blink as blinking
15:37:25 <ehird> ais523: how can you blink text-to-speech?
15:37:47 <Deewiant> So you can do whatever you want with it.
15:37:54 <oerjan> ehird: i DON'T see WHY that SHOULD not BE possible
15:38:03 <ais523> ehird: I've actually blinked speech before now
15:38:10 <ais523> by putting a hand over my ear and moving it back and forth quickly
15:38:11 <Deewiant> However, CSS has 'text-decoration: blink'
15:38:19 <ais523> in a hubbub of lots of people talking, you hear random syllables
15:38:19 <Deewiant> Which is actually valid CSS 2.1, not sure about 3
15:38:24 <ais523> they don't make any sense, but it's kind-of soothing
15:38:35 <Deewiant> But the UACG say that you're allowed to ignore it.
15:38:43 <ehird> "Go read the comments, as usual they are the best part of Slashdot." β HI 2005, HOW YOU DOING?
15:39:15 <ais523> the comments are the best part, though
15:39:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you're 2005? figures
15:39:20 <ais523> because reddit gets the articles first
15:39:24 <ais523> and the summaries are awful
15:39:34 <ehird> 15:38 ehird: "Go read the comments, as usual they are the best part of Slashdot." β HI 2005, HOW YOU DOING?
15:39:34 <ehird> 15:39 AnMaster: hi
15:39:59 <AnMaster> I just got back, rather tired.
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16:13:47 <oklopol> for bastet, can't you change the keys
16:15:31 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:15:50 <oklopol> blah i'll just use some other computer
16:17:36 <ais523> ehird: how did your Enigma 1.1ing go?
16:17:42 <ehird> ais523: didn't fix it.
16:17:47 <ehird> why isn't there a binary ;_;
16:17:53 <ais523> because it's still alpha
16:17:57 <ais523> and they don't build nightlies
16:18:19 <ais523> I went and translated a puzzle from Agora-Enigma into computer-game-Enigma
16:20:44 <ehird> 0% [Waiting for headers]
16:20:48 <ehird> ais523: fix this shit.
16:28:05 <Deewiant> I wonder which version I've played
16:28:47 <Deewiant> 0.37 at least is a pain-in-the-ass version
16:28:51 <ehird> [[A wise man once said : "in order to understand recursion, you must first understand recrusion". ]]
16:28:55 <Deewiant> Where it's hard to get even one line
16:29:00 <ehird> And to understand recrusion, ...
16:29:07 <ais523> ehird: I've seen that quote in lots of places before
16:29:11 <ehird> ais523: look carefully
16:29:36 <ehird> ...which ruins the joke, but can be used to make it into a joke about mutual recursion
16:30:41 <oklokol> anyway seems level is just speed
16:31:14 <oklokol> yes, but it's a bit annoying you can't slide things under others after they hit ground, on level 9, by just holding the key
16:31:56 <ais523> is this a tetris clone?
16:32:51 <ehird> ais523: it uses an algorithm
16:32:55 <ehird> to pick the worst piece possible
16:33:01 <ehird> thus, bastard-tetris
16:33:15 <Deewiant> 0.43 makes me feel like I'm just getting really unlucky with the RNG
16:34:00 <Deewiant> Occasionally it gives me exactly the piece I want
16:34:26 <oklokol> 43 is supposedly even harder
16:35:31 <Deewiant> (Playing the harder version, of course)
16:36:34 <Deewiant> Hmmh, messed up a bit, ended with 9 lines
16:37:03 <Deewiant> Anyway, with 0.41 I typically get my first line when I've filled half the screen or so
16:37:28 <Deewiant> With 0.43 I can consistently get a line before I've got even 10 blocks
16:39:14 <oklokol> but i was really unlucky! :D
16:39:31 <Deewiant> No, you just weren't clever ;-P
16:39:38 <Deewiant> I think the only random thing is the first piece
16:39:52 <Deewiant> Or no, of course if multiple pieces have the same probability
16:40:07 <Deewiant> Unlike normal Tetris(R), however, Bastet does not choose your next brick at random. Instead, it uses a special algorithm designed to choose the worst brick possible.
16:40:22 <ehird> what version is xorg 1.6?
16:40:50 <Deewiant> oklokol: So... what exactly should I read
16:40:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:41:08 <ehird> I have 1.3, 1.4, 1.4.99, 1.5, 6.7, 6.8, 6.8.99, 6.9, 7.0, 7.1, 7.1.99, 7.2, 7.3, 7.4 as options
16:41:22 <ehird> so which would that be for xorg 1.6? I'm puzzled by 7.x, this xorg is recent?
16:42:11 <ais523> I just did Test of Dexterity
16:42:32 <oklokol> read linux source and umm 0.41
16:43:19 <Deewiant> Should just be 100,100,100,100...
16:43:41 <oklokol> but it sure as hell doesn't seem that way, i just got like 7 2x2's in a row, anything else would've done the trick.
16:44:13 <oklokol> also it's hard to lose the tetris reflexes, "i'll just put this here and wait for a 4x1"
16:44:35 <Deewiant> You have to intentionally mess up to confuse it, I find
16:45:30 <ais523> isn't 7 2x2s enough ot make a row?
16:45:44 <Deewiant> Well, if you put them sideways it is
16:45:51 <Deewiant> Of course it wouldn't have given you the last one if you had :-P
16:45:53 <oklokol> ais523: yes, unless your keeping the hole open just in case...
16:48:26 <ehird> oklokol YOUR/YOU'RE ERROR
16:48:45 <oerjan> GOLD WITH PINK SPOTS ALERT
16:51:20 <Deewiant> I haven't played that much :-P
16:52:00 <Deewiant> I've played ~10 games altogether also
16:52:23 <oklokol> then it's probably more about luck, most of my attempts were zeroes, and i started with a 6.
16:52:25 <Deewiant> I can't remember my old records but I think they didn't go up to 10, might have exceeded 5
16:54:38 <ehird> Deewiant: fuck you now X won't start :|
16:55:02 <oklokol> why are configurations in source, i'm not gonna compile this to try a deterministic game.
16:55:37 <Deewiant> ehird: extra/xorg-server 1.6.1-1; extra/xorg-server-utils 7.4-4
16:55:47 <oklokol> well. computer probably always wins, in tetris.
16:56:11 <oklokol> (thinking of it as a 2 player game, computer being the one choosing pieces)
16:56:18 <ehird> Deewiant: how can I finds out my servers versions
16:56:21 <ais523> how well would an AI do at playing bastet?
16:56:32 <oklokol> ais523: that's essentially what i'm wondering.
16:56:59 <ais523> make an evolutionary Befunge-93 program to test it out
16:57:05 <ehird> Deewiant: that doesn't tell me the 7.butt thing
16:57:14 <Deewiant> ehird: What is the 7.butt thing anyway
16:57:29 <Deewiant> It's not the server version, it's something else
16:57:31 <oklokol> oerjan: what'a tetris's complexity?
16:57:35 <ehird> Deewiant: "xorg-server-utils" apparently.
16:57:58 <Deewiant> ehird: I think it's just a sort of package version number for all their crap
16:58:01 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.x.org/wiki/Releases/7.4
16:58:17 <ehird> I don't know how to find out what version I have!
16:58:29 <Deewiant> ehird: There is no such version.
16:58:40 <Deewiant> I.e. no single program has such a version.
16:58:44 <Deewiant> Or that's what it seems like to me.
16:58:56 <Deewiant> Looking at http://www.x.org/wiki/Releases/7.4.
16:58:56 <ehird> I dont' care about program
16:59:04 <ehird> I just want to know what 7.butt I have, I guess apt knows
16:59:21 <Deewiant> If your stuff is from a package manager then yes, of course ask the package manager and not me
16:59:35 <ehird> Must be kernel issues. it mentioned ABI
16:59:40 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.x.org/wiki/Releases/7.4 is 1.5.1.
17:01:40 <GregorR> The Xorg releases are versioned, but each release is just a bundle of packages. The packages each have their own versioning scheme, so it's entirely likely that a "7.x" version a package manager reports to you is nigh-on meaningless.
17:02:03 <ehird> GregorR: Well, this installer likes to know.
17:02:18 <GregorR> Deewiant: Human being who installs stuff :P
17:02:25 <ehird> Parallels VM tools thing.
17:02:33 <ehird> So I cans get my compiz's on my VM's.
17:02:34 <GregorR> OH, an actual package installer.
17:02:43 <ehird> It also has 1.x versions.
17:02:46 <ehird> But only up to 1.5.
17:02:54 <ehird> Deewiant: It makes the windows marginally less ugly. I like shadows.
17:02:58 <ehird> And cuz I have 1.6
17:04:28 <ehird> I'll try the 1.5 thang tho.
17:05:07 <ehird> module ABI major version (4) doesn't match the server's version (5)
17:05:09 <ehird> module ABI major version (2) doesn't match the server's version (5)
17:05:13 <ehird> Deewiant: so 1.5 prolly won't work.
17:05:49 <GregorR> Just hexedit it and change the ABI version 8-D
17:05:59 <ais523> GregorR: that so wouldn't work
17:06:56 <ehird> Deewiant: How, I'm on a binary distro.
17:07:54 <Deewiant> Run it on every binary that matches the glob *[xX]* just in case
17:08:17 <ehird> Deewiant: it stores the abi version as a string?
17:08:22 <ehird> using the decimal digits?
17:08:38 <ehird> in case they overflow int or sth?
17:08:51 <Deewiant> All ints are stored as text, duh?
17:09:28 <Deewiant> How else could the computer read them?
17:14:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:16:32 <oerjan> oklokol: i don't remember tetris' complexity but iirc i have read that you cannot win against a stream of equal zigzag pieces
17:17:50 <Slereah> Yes, but that is quite unlikely
17:18:25 <ais523> you could put them each standing upright
17:18:30 <ais523> that gives you a row in the centre out of three
17:18:38 <ais523> then the next row standing upright nets you two lines
17:18:41 <Slereah> ais523 : That leaves you holes
17:18:43 <ais523> and likewise for all futue
17:18:56 <ais523> that leaves holes in the bottom row, but you keep on getting lines 2 and 3 ad infinitum
17:18:58 <Slereah> Eventually they'll accumulates
17:18:59 <ais523> and it never grows any higher
17:19:28 <oklokol> ais523: what if there's an odd amount of columns?
17:19:35 <Deewiant> Quick, somebody code a version of tetris that only gives a Z and test it out!
17:19:40 <ais523> ah, it probably doesn't work then
17:19:42 <Deewiant> Use VB to make a GUI interface
17:19:54 <ais523> if anything, I'd modify quinquis
17:20:02 <ais523> even though I'd have to find a 16-bit DOS compiler from somewhere
17:20:11 <ais523> quinquis is a tetris clone using pentominoes I wrote years ago
17:20:21 <ehird> ais523: You have to use VB to make a GUI interface. How else will you track an IP?
17:20:32 * ais523 deliberately misses the point
17:20:40 <ehird> That's not a GUI interface!
17:20:55 <Deewiant> Traceroute has no GUI, therefore it cannot trace an IP.
17:21:18 * ais523 System | Administration | Network Tools | Traceroute
17:22:17 <ehird> ais523: is it written in visual basic?
17:22:39 <ais523> I don't know, do you want me to apt-get source it and look?
17:22:46 <oerjan> ais523: hmph, you are right, it must have been more complicated
17:23:04 <ais523> in theory it could be written in Mono
17:23:11 <ais523> except I think I don't have Mono installed here atm
17:23:33 <ehird> gnome ships with it
17:23:36 <ehird> well, depends on it
17:23:49 <ais523> ah, yes, I have tomboy, therefore at least bits of mono
17:23:58 <ais523> I know that the Jaunty update uninstalled most of it though as an unused dependency
17:24:05 <ais523> so I probably only have bits of the core, rather than all the libraries
17:24:34 <oklokol> oerjan: you checked both odd and even?
17:25:08 <oerjan> ais523: ah, http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/java/tetris/explanation.html
17:25:10 <oklokol> for even it would clearly work, consider a 2-column game
17:25:22 <oerjan> oklokol: i only cared about normal size
17:25:41 <oerjan> and that link should work
17:25:46 <oklokol> and you'll realize it works for all sizes 2n.
17:25:53 <ehird> "However, it might be theoretically possible to create a perfect computer Tetris player which could successfully play Tetris until its plug was pulled. The arguments presented on this page prove that that is impossible."
17:25:56 <ais523> oh, alternating Z and S
17:25:58 <ehird> It might be possible. It's not possible.
17:26:16 <ais523> my proof that all-Z isn't lethal brakes down if they alternate
17:26:19 <Deewiant> Alternating is impossible, of course.
17:26:50 <Deewiant> Or hmm, I guess that works for even columns also?
17:26:55 <ais523> besides, I've won Tetris before
17:27:11 <oklokol> oerjan: you checked odd too?
17:27:20 <ais523> the gameboy version had a victory condition
17:27:50 <ais523> I got gameboy tetris free with a bank account
17:27:55 <oerjan> oklokol: it's my proof
17:28:00 <oklokol> i have one that plays a cool victory tune when you reach 10000 points, takes about 2 hours, i remember getting to 3h or something
17:28:19 <oklokol> 19:22β¦ oerjan: ais523: hmph, you are right, it must have been more complicated
17:30:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
17:31:56 <oklokol> a simple yes or no would've sufficed.
17:32:18 <oklokol> i'm gonna guess "i don't remember, i was too drunk"
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17:40:12 * Deewiant has played http://www.youtuberepeat.com/watch/?v=zXeCEzaNLKM for over 10 minutes now
17:40:16 <ais523> that's pretty nasty of you ,take it back!
17:40:34 <Deewiant> Okay, I do, this music is pretty cool actually, hehe
17:41:53 <ehird> ais523: there are far worse insults.
17:42:00 <ehird> 'damn you' is... pretty tame.
17:42:07 <ais523> not really, it has nasty religious overtones
17:42:20 <ehird> Eh, religious people say damn you all the time.
17:42:23 <ehird> There's plenty of history to anything.
17:42:33 <ais523> it's expressing a preference for the worst possible thing (by definition) to happen to someone
17:42:45 <ais523> if you're unreligious, you believe that that's impossible, but you still know what the insult means
17:42:48 <Deewiant> So "fuck you" should be taken as a compliment?
17:43:04 <ais523> I never really understood why "fuck you" was an insult
17:51:47 <ehird> "The Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled "
17:52:02 <ehird> it's like something alesteir crowley [sp] would write.
18:03:57 <oklokol> ais523: because masturbation is pathetic?
18:04:54 <oklokol> also umm, this code here, it can set the value of a pointer in two ways, one is to use main's argument, other is to make an array in an if block, and assign the pointer to it.
18:05:19 <oklokol> isn't that a trivial C error?
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18:08:43 <ais523> how is the array made?
18:08:47 <ais523> automatic storage duration?
18:08:53 <ais523> if so, you can't use the pointer outside the block
18:12:59 <AnMaster> ais523, C question. Is return stack->entries[--stack->top]; well defined?
18:13:10 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell it does what I intended.
18:13:38 <ais523> there's no guarantee as to whether the first stack will return the decremented or original version
18:14:05 <oklokol> AnMaster: isn't C like your primary language?
18:14:34 * oklokol is annoyed at lecturers insisting on C if they can't get it right
18:15:32 <Deewiant> ais523: That decrements stack->top and accesses stack->entries so no problems?
18:15:56 <ais523> Deewiant: is that (--stack)->top or --(stack->top)?
18:16:02 <ais523> I think it's the first, but I'm not sure
18:16:06 <ais523> unary over binary, isn't it?
18:16:08 <Deewiant> ais523: I'm quite sure it's the latter
18:16:21 <oklokol> actually yeah probably for those . and -> things it's like that
18:16:35 <Deewiant> prefix decrement has lower precedence than ->
18:16:48 <Deewiant> According to http://www.difranco.net/cop2220/op-prec.htm at least
18:16:52 <oklokol> -> and . of course have the highest
18:17:10 <Deewiant> Postfix -- has the same precedence as ->, though
18:17:22 <Deewiant> But it's left-to-right so I guess it doesn't matter
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18:21:42 <AnMaster> <ais523> there's no guarantee as to whether the first stack will return the decremented or original version <-- um? Why not
18:22:34 <Deewiant> Short answer: it is well defined.
18:22:38 <AnMaster> so -- operates on the value of top then. Good.
18:23:26 <oklokol> even shorter would be "yes"
18:24:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since when is a space shorter than 1?
18:24:16 <oklokol> i tried not to say anything at all, but i'm not sure you would've noticed it.
18:24:23 <AnMaster> and in what language is a space == true
18:24:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Space is 0x20, 1 is 0x31
18:24:49 <Deewiant> And don't you know that silence is acceptance?
18:25:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, *shorter* not "lower value"
18:26:29 <oklokol> you know the part containing the ones is shorter.
18:28:22 <oklokol> also i could close the repeating tetris music at some point.
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18:38:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: As unary it's shorter
18:39:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends on field width.
18:39:13 <AnMaster> well I guess you mean unpadded
18:39:39 <Deewiant> Well sure, I can pad everything to infinity and then everything's the same length. :-P
18:39:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still I never heard of "silence is acceptance" before
18:40:03 <Deewiant> Meh, no such saying in Swedish either?
18:40:15 <ehird> Deewiant: so are all finns rapists?
18:40:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Since when are rape victims silent?
18:41:10 <ehird> Deewiant: clearly you have never raped a zombie.
18:49:36 <ehird> http://www.zareason.com/shop/product.php?productid=16189&cat=0&page=1 β this is cute but ugh I hate those keys that are all rough
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18:50:03 <ehird> can you buy standalone laptop keyboards?
18:50:06 <ehird> i love those thing
18:51:02 <lament> apple keyboard is pretty much like a laptop keyboard
18:51:14 <ehird> yeah, that's why I love them
18:51:14 <lament> http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FTQ/89XQ/F8QANFHG/FTQ89XQF8QANFHG.MEDIUM.jpg
18:51:35 <ehird> but I'd rather not pay apple quite a bit of dough for a kb when I'm moving away from macs.
18:51:49 <fizzie> "silence implies consent" seems to be the corresponding phrase; from latin, qui tacet consentiret; also some sort of legalistic thing, it seems.
18:56:57 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CPmd9hmNAI Fucking hell this is loud
18:59:45 <fizzie> This "Logitech UltraX Flat" keyboard I use is rather laptoppy; but this is the old model, the new one got buggered keys.
19:00:08 <ehird> http://matias.ca/tactilepro2/ β apple extended keyboard in neu USBy form, looks nice
19:00:22 <ehird> wonder how much noise
19:00:23 <fizzie> And anyway they had a "Flat" model and a "FlatX" and some sort of "Ultra" thing and it was all so confusing; there was also a no-known-brand clone which looked pretty much identical.
19:01:11 <ehird> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88E2xpkdxFk&feature=related, second one (flatx) doesn't look too tactile
19:02:48 <Deewiant> ehird: Er, you have a keyboard model you like but it's from the wrong company so you'll get a different one? Wtf?
19:02:57 <ehird> That's not what I said, Deewiant.
19:03:03 <ehird> You could try reading :P
19:03:06 <Deewiant> 09-04-22 20:51:35 ( ehird) but I'd rather not pay apple quite a bit of dough for a kb when I'm moving away from macs.
19:04:31 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, well, this one is neither "Ultra Flat", nor "Ultra X Premium"; it's "UltraX Flat", which *looks* like the later one (though not *exactly* like), but the keys are... you know, less softy. But they don't make this thing any more; I tried the new version in a shop, and it feels very different.
19:05:01 <ehird> I'd go for the das keyboard, were it... y'know... not as bloody loud.
19:05:02 <fizzie> "later one" there meaning the later one shown in the video.
19:05:09 <fizzie> I'm not sure which one it was, in fact.
19:05:20 <Deewiant> The DAS isn't even particularly loud, I don't think.
19:05:20 <fizzie> No audio made it a bit... abstract.
19:05:51 <ehird> Deewiant: Not about to buy one to see if that's true, quite expensive thing; reviews say it's = model m volume.
19:06:38 <Deewiant> The DAS has blue cherries, the model M is buckling spring. I'd expect an M to be noticeably louder.
19:06:46 <ehird> "wow u didnt even hit the spacebar nt 1 time u face shit" (comment on video of japanese person typing)
19:07:08 <fizzie> Keyboards are so boring, anyway; 2009 should mean some sort of direct neural connection already.
19:07:38 <ehird> Deewiant: It's Das, btw.
19:07:55 <ehird> "Das Keyboard sports best-in-class German-engineered gold-plated mechanical key switches"
19:07:59 <ehird> MONSTER CABLE FOR YOUR KEYBOARD
19:08:33 <Deewiant> Or not really, it's more the connector type.
19:08:34 <ehird> Deewiant: You're not srsly saying you think highly of Monster Cable?
19:08:49 <ehird> Yes. A scamster company.
19:08:56 <ehird> Charge $100+ upwards for a $5 cable.
19:09:01 <ehird> Claim it's better quality. Results say: no.
19:09:06 <ehird> Also, sue people for using the name "Monster".
19:09:09 <ehird> In any field whatsoever.
19:09:15 <ehird> Because they invented the word monster, see.
19:09:18 <fizzie> I'd buy a new keyboard like this if Logitech still made 'em; this particular one seems to, after some few years of service, have generated a problem that the space bar doesn't always register if I click on the extreme end of the key.
19:09:41 <ehird> do people actually do rollover when typing?
19:09:45 <ehird> I only press one key at a time, in general.
19:09:49 <ehird> albeit in rapid succession
19:10:37 <fizzie> Yes, well, Monster Cable sells "faster" HDMI cables too.
19:10:40 <Deewiant> I sometimes do accidental rollover which causes one of the keys to not register.
19:11:08 <fizzie> "The Speed You Need From Your High Definition Home Theater Cables". Well, maybe it's just flowery text there.
19:13:19 <ehird> anyone have a space cadet?
19:13:53 <fizzie> Selling gazillion-dollar cables for all-digital connections is a bit suspicious to me, anyway. Oh, and some of the cables are unidirectional; they won't work "right" if you hook them up the wrong way around, even though the connectors are identical on both ends.
19:14:30 <ehird> Deewiant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnY36odkP6o&feature=related this sounds the loud to me
19:14:44 <fizzie> "Well, turn down the volume."
19:15:11 <Deewiant> That's what cherry blues sound like. :-P
19:16:07 <Deewiant> See the video at the bottom of http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/08/mechanical-key-switch-keyboards-demystified.aspx for some variation.
19:17:20 <ehird> It's a bit high pitched, is my thinking.
19:17:27 <ehird> My model m and apple keyboard are both deep sounds.
19:18:13 <Deewiant> Yeah, the Das is higher-pitched than other cherry blue keyboards, or so I've heard.
19:18:47 <ehird> anyone used a scissor-switch kb
19:18:54 <ehird> supposedly the ones laptops use.
19:19:24 <Deewiant> Meh, they're membrane keyboards so they suck anyway. :-P
19:19:52 <ehird> I dunno, I like the feel of laptop kbs. You don't need to put much pressure on and that makes my type faster.
19:20:03 <ehird> fizzie: is your X thing scizswitch
19:20:51 <fizzie> How should I know? It certainly didn't say on the box. :p
19:21:21 <ehird> A special case of computer keyboard membrane switch is the scissors switch. The keys are attached to the keyboard via two plastic pieces that interlock in a "scissor"-like fashion, and snap to the keyboard and the key. It still uses rubber domes, but a special plastic 'scissors' mechanism links the keycap to a plunger that depresses the rubber dome with a much shorter travel than the typical rubber dome keyboard
19:21:24 <fizzie> I don't remember what it looked like, inside, either. Except that one of the longer keys had some sort of metallic-wire-trickery that was very tricky to get back in place when I removed it.
19:21:28 <ehird> I think my current one is that
19:21:36 * ehird pops off a key to see
19:22:42 <ehird> The keycap is separate; it has a hollow tube in the middle. This snaps into a thing on the actual keyboard which has another hollow tube with a rubber membrane at the bottom, again a hollow tube, although smaller and shorter.
19:22:57 <ehird> Deewiant: what does that sound like to you?
19:23:58 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes. Seems likely.
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19:25:16 <ehird> http://matias.ca/tactilepro2/resources/images/TP2_hands_diagram_1.jpg "This keyboard for people with three or more hands"
19:25:39 <Deewiant> Hmm, those keyboards look identical
19:25:54 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, there seems to be two plastic pieces in a scissors-like fashion under the keycaps of this thing.
19:26:07 <ehird> Your mom is two plastβ shot
19:26:09 <fizzie> Well, I only examined a sample of N=1 keys, but I don't really think they'd alter.
19:26:29 <Deewiant> Maybe it's the only one like that!
19:26:49 <ehird> it's to fool customers
19:26:55 <ehird> they told people to pop off keys
19:27:02 <ehird> and the 3 most common ones they made scissor'd
19:27:09 <ehird> to fool customers, the rest is just bogstandard membrane
19:28:06 <ehird> is the das keyboard smooth-key?
19:28:07 <fizzie> For the record, it was the number key 1. But as I said, they no longer make this thing; I'd bet the current version is not scissory at all, since the feedbacky sort-of-clicky-but-not-quite feeling is gone, it's just a soft resistance.
19:28:32 <fizzie> (Well, the current version of their product that still looks similar. I'm not quite sure how the all-black also-rather-slim version acts.)
19:28:33 <ehird> Deewiant: a lot of keyboards have plastic keycaps where if you look closely there's lots of little bobble
19:28:43 <ehird> and much prefer smooth plastic keycaps
19:28:57 <Deewiant> I'm annoyed by the bobbles on the home row keys and such
19:32:12 <ehird> My model m sounds nicer in my recording than in the real thing
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19:33:30 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5CeNunbHto&feature=related β this sounds godly
19:33:39 <ehird> could do with more keys. and keycaps.
19:35:47 <fizzie> Whenever I press a key, something else on my board says something approximated by "brΓ€ng", thanks to the vibration. (I guess the onomatopoeicity of that is possibly a bit Finnish-only.)
19:36:11 <fizzie> Or is any table a board?
19:39:44 <ehird> And the Cherry MX Brown is tactile, but not clicky
19:40:44 <ehird> abs m1 is apparently tactile !click
19:40:59 <ehird> windows key has some sort of smooth bullshit on though
19:41:37 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oue4KQkmBEM er sounds very clicky
19:42:59 <fizzie> Nowadays the Windows key should be in that embossed circle thing nowadays; I don't have any keyboards like that here.
19:43:28 <ehird> http://www.viddler.com/explore/HotHardware/videos/69/ second one sounds hot
19:43:31 <fizzie> Incidentally, do they still use the "correct" layout of ins-home-pageup-del-end-pagedown keys in addition to the weird vertical thing?
19:43:45 <ehird> it's clicky but without the cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick
19:44:14 <fizzie> "We put the ICKY back in CLICKY" would be an awesome slogan for a keyboard manufacturer.
19:44:59 <ehird> call it kICKY or something
19:45:56 <ehird> the 7g has unsmooth keys
19:45:59 <ehird> look: http://www.steelseries.com/images/18/1561-1866.jpg
19:46:04 <ehird> also wtf@that layout
19:47:55 <GregorR> Conversation fragment from outside my office: "Yeah, but what if L7 goes up to sixty?" "What do you mean by sixty?"
19:48:06 * GregorR wonders how "sixty" can ever be ambiguous.
19:48:49 <GregorR> Hmmmmmmmmm, 'spossible. I assumed they were talking about some algorithm since this is the CS lounge :P
19:50:09 <GregorR> Is it actually possible to buy domain names from squatters, or is it purely mythical :P
19:51:19 <fizzie> I've been getting lots of targeted spam about gehennom.com becoming soon available for purchasation, to the webmaster@gehennom.org address.
19:51:42 <GregorR> I want plof.{something} :P
19:51:52 <GregorR> But they're all squatted because it's a four-letter word.
19:51:57 <ehird> Come up with a cctld yo.
19:53:04 <fizzie> As in the famous insult, "You're such a ploffo!"
19:53:59 <fizzie> Or "plof.it"; then you can paraphrase the famous slogan and have something in the just.plof.it address.
19:54:43 <fizzie> Some of those ccTLDs are rather strict about requiring someone/something in the country itself.
19:55:02 <ehird> I wanted velociraptu.re
19:55:09 <ehird> but you need to be in REtard land.
19:56:16 <fizzie> For .fi you also need to be someone living in Finland, or a company/organization/foundation registered in the corresponding Finnish registry.
19:57:28 <fizzie> fu.fi is registered to "All You Need Finland Oy" ("Oy" being the company-suffix).
19:58:04 <fizzie> The front page looks a bit bizarre. Maybe some sort of religious cult?
19:58:32 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
20:01:18 <fizzie> Funny, you only get to use (in addition to the "normal" characters) the characters Γ₯, Γ€, ΓΆ and the Sami language specials (but only those officially spoken in Finland) in IDNs in the .fi registry. That's rather a limitation.
20:05:03 <ehird> why aren't ther any smooth keyboards ;_;
20:05:34 <ehird> smooth criminalboards
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20:22:07 <ehird> the steelseries 7g is single width
20:22:15 <ehird> kill it with fire!!
20:27:40 <ehird> i just want a decent non-{tactile,clicky} mechanical keyboard
20:27:43 <ehird> preferably with smooth keys.
20:34:04 <fizzie> Just buy one of those Optimus Maximus keyboards, and be the envy of your neighbourhood. Even though as a keyboard I don't think it's especially good.
20:34:29 <ehird> no way am I paying $1k for a shitty keyboard.
20:36:35 <fizzie> Heh, right, it was that steelseries 7G which had gold-plated connectors. :p
20:36:51 <ehird> fizzie: what's your kb again
20:37:18 <pikhq> ehird, you want a clicky keyboard. Buckling springs FTW.
20:37:20 <fizzie> Logitech UltraX Flat, if I recall correctly; but it's been discontinued; they have something vaguely similar, but not at all.
20:37:33 <ehird> pikhq: Fuck that. I hate their sound and they're not fast to type on.
20:37:46 <ehird> The only vaguely similar thing I'm considering is the das keyboard.
20:38:25 <ehird> fizzie: http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-967568-0403-X-Flat-Resistant-Keyboard/dp/B000I4UQZM
20:38:33 <fizzie> "Gaming keyboards" are funny. This one advertises itself has having "2 megabytes of built-in memory and an integrated TurboCore unit".
20:39:12 <ehird> http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Illuminated-Ultrathin-Keyboard-Backlighting/dp/B001F51G16/ref=pd_cp_e_2?pf_rd_p=413863501&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000I4UQZM&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1BWD2KVWZWF5K9H5VEKD this looks quite the nice
20:40:59 <fizzie> I think that "Ultra-X Flat" in the first Amazon model is the new variant, with non-scissory just-sort-of-soft-touch keys. It has that black border above, which I seem to recall was about the only obvious physical difference. But I don't really know.
20:41:53 <fizzie> Er, first Amazon link, I mean.
20:42:08 <fizzie> I think I did try some other all-black thing Logitech keyboard, and it didn't feel any better. I don't think it had any illuminatus connections, though.
20:42:09 <ehird> "What's this? A laptop-style keyboard on the desk of a TR editor, a heavy-duty typist and ostensible keyboard purist? Surely there must be some mistake"
20:42:12 <ehird> This sounds promising.
20:42:31 <ehird> http://techreport.com/articles.x/16522 Looks nice enough at first glance.
20:43:21 <ehird> although I hate that wrist rest
20:44:48 <ehird> "What's more, the Aurora fits in perfectly with my dual black Dell monitors, black speakers, black Logitech wireless mouse, black headphones, and shiny black Antec Sonata case."
20:44:55 <ehird> "But alas, I cannot change my race."
20:45:21 <ehird> grr that windows key makes me want to kill something
20:45:28 <ehird> FUCK YOUR LOGO AND FUCK YOUR GLOS
20:45:44 <ehird> ahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
20:45:57 <fizzie> I hate keyboard-shopping since it would be more optimal to actually get to poke them things, and that's hard over the internets.
20:46:19 <ehird> but i've never heard of a keyboard shop
20:47:08 <fizzie> Keyboard shops are hidden away at dark alleyways, only for the true keyboard connoisseur.
20:48:18 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: E=Ζ$BDE!N(Bc2 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:48:46 <fizzie> The tiny backspace is tiny, truly.
20:50:20 <ehird> a youtube keyboard review without any typing video
20:50:55 <ehird> this one has full sized backspace key in this review
20:50:58 <ehird> but not on the site
20:51:16 <fizzie> Might be layout-dependant; I've seen that sort of thing.
20:51:31 <fizzie> Or maybe they're just playing with you.
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21:09:44 <fizzie> Our local the-major-computer-parts-retailer-around-these-parts-I-guess sells this thing called "Γberkeyboard" which openly advertises the laptop-likeness and scissor-switchiness. But it also completely lacks all key markings. And has a bit miniaturized layout when it comes to cursor keys. And is a cheap plasticky sort of thing, too.
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21:50:48 -!- [flaming] has joined.
21:51:06 <[flaming]> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
21:52:17 <[flaming]> can i run it without downloading anything?
21:52:43 -!- [flaming] has left (?).
21:54:11 <pikhq> I think that's "Hello, World!\n", but I'm not sure.
21:54:50 <Deewiant> Probably. I mean, what else would you run into at random? :-P
21:55:57 <fizzie> That was rather impatient.
21:55:58 <pikhq> That outputs 14 bytes?
21:56:15 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
21:56:26 <fizzie> You must be a psychic.
21:56:48 <fizzie> The last dot there is probably the newline.
21:57:01 <pikhq> Yeah. Definitly a newline.
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22:03:32 <kerlo> You know, I just noticed that in today's xkcd, the railing in the sixth panel is apparently a cross section.
22:04:05 <kerlo> If it were a side view, it would probably curve back toward the house at some point.
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22:36:49 <oerjan> <oklokol> a simple yes or no would've sufficed.
22:37:55 <okloduk> well okay, i guess yours was better.
22:37:56 <oerjan> oklopol: erm, do you get highlighted on any oklo* ?
22:38:20 <okloduk> actually just found two orthogonal 4x4 latin squares, and came to celebrate
22:38:37 <Deewiant> You probably should, though, since your nicks vary so much
22:38:54 <okloduk> oerjan: when you pair them up elementwise, all pairs different
22:39:30 <oerjan> why does your client give _two_ version replies? :D
22:39:50 <okloduk> which one did you version?
22:40:12 <okloduk> well it's mirc, it tends to do weird stuff when you ask it stuff.
22:41:59 <oerjan> you better paste those squares, that doesn't make sense...
22:44:29 <oerjan> the wp article on latin squares uses the term, but doesn't define it...
22:44:56 <okloduk> you have two matrices, and you take each element (i,j) from both matrices, if the matrices are size n, you get n^2 ordered pairs, orthogonality = all pairs different
22:45:17 <okloduk> also they both have to be latin squares
22:45:24 <oerjan> oh right just one for each matrix
22:45:42 <oerjan> i was confused and thought you took a pair from each
22:47:41 <okloduk> anyway it's a trivial problem, i wasn't trying to imply i was proud of that or anything
22:47:58 <okloduk> just needed an excuse for having appeared just in time
22:48:41 <oerjan> oh well, i'll pretend to believe your excuse then. er, whoops.
22:49:21 <oerjan> what the heck is that topic
22:49:54 <fizzie> The topic is something that did not work.
22:50:06 <fizzie> 22:48:18 ... Slereah_ changed the topic of #esoteric to: E=Γ$BDE!N(Bc2 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D
22:50:09 <fizzie> 22:48:28 < ~Slereah_> Hm, it no work
22:50:19 <fizzie> I am unsure as to how it did not work.
22:51:04 <oerjan> maybe it was a wild attempt at injection
22:51:25 <oerjan> clearly he forgot to balance parentheses
22:54:11 <okloduk> in soviet russia, parentheses balance themselves
22:54:51 * oerjan swats okloduk for a clear meme failure -----###
22:54:57 <okloduk> okay i've done 48 exercises, if i do 3 more, i'll get cool extra points in the exam
22:55:05 <okloduk> but i already got 30/30 from the first exam
22:55:15 <okloduk> have wasted time vs. waste time
22:55:32 <okloduk> any suggestions? or maybe requests for clarification.
22:56:25 <oerjan> in soviet russia, time wastes YOU
22:56:39 <oerjan> admittedly, that has been known to happen under capitalism as well
22:57:32 <oerjan> also, in soviet russia, extra points in the exam get YOU
22:57:46 <okloduk> i actually had a "good" soviet russia joke today, but i just couldn't do it.
22:57:56 <okloduk> but now i'm tired and i can say anything.
22:58:10 <okloduk> i mean SR jokes are somewhat old
22:59:06 <fizzie> Yes, strontium jokes have truly ceasiumed to be amusing.
22:59:37 <oerjan> in soviet russia, yoda grammatical order changes
22:59:43 <okloduk> there exercises have about 3 pages of shit for me to read
22:59:53 <okloduk> don't they realize it's fucking past midnight
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23:01:19 <kerlo> SR isn't strontium, it's sulfide.
23:01:40 <kerlo> Sulfides in general. That R could be anything.
23:01:55 <fizzie> I guess so; I just used "wn sr -over" to get something to say.
23:02:34 <oerjan> i don't know if it is germanium that we should sulphur such puns
23:02:57 <okloduk> fizzie: that's what you get for only using material from the channel
23:03:01 <oerjan> although it might lead to some gold
23:03:07 <okloduk> oh look i have a spoon next to me :o
23:03:16 <okloduk> probably because i just ate ice cream.
23:03:20 <fizzie> Like the old saying goes: when you make assumptions, you make an ass out of you and... 'mptions.
23:05:51 <fizzie> Well, it's a saying. I don't really get those either.
23:05:52 <kerlo> In Soviet Russia, the ability to get better services due to natural talent is deemphasized YOU!
23:06:10 <kerlo> When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.
23:06:49 <ehird> 23:05 kerlo: In Soviet Russia, the ability to get better services due to natural talent is deemphasized YOU! β capitalism fail
23:06:50 <fizzie> No, I don't think that's it. I'm certain it was something about umptions.
23:07:37 <oerjan> kerlo: that soviet russia joke didn't contain a silver of funny. but i guess we could iron something out
23:08:28 <kerlo> Yeah, sounds like a good idea.
23:09:53 <oerjan> fizzie: i think you must have read a scrambled version
23:10:53 <fizzie> My elementary comment wasn't a good idea, I take it.
23:13:00 <oerjan> fizzie: it was a boron idea, and if you do anything such again i'll call a copper
23:14:26 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh? Well... I'll unbihexuminate your untrilinums if you try anything that ununseptic.
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23:16:52 <oerjan> i think this is wearing a bit tin
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23:20:20 <fizzie> Ah! You in fact called the copper, it seems! With some slight changes in spelling.
23:20:58 <oerjan> you'd think they would see through a pun
23:23:42 <lament> I was gold by this conversation. I'm glad to see the puns finally argon.
23:24:12 <oerjan> lament: you repeated an element, lose 3 points
23:25:08 <oerjan> okloduk: there is no reason for swearing, sodium it
23:25:36 <okloduk> could you please stop seaborgium
23:26:04 <oerjan> this is getting out of hand, i don't understand the puns any longer
23:27:27 <okloduk> well, antimony to you too.
23:27:42 <okloduk> of course, i'm not actually sure these are international names, though they do sound like it
23:27:47 <oerjan> there could be a meaning to that, but i xenon
23:29:14 * pikhq drops some sodium into the pool.
23:30:24 <okloduk> lament is having a huge radon
23:30:40 <oerjan> pikhq: i think doing that is a chrome
23:30:43 <fizzie> All this is ytterbiumly ludicrous. Is there some curium I could use to make it stop? Perhaps some sort of good samarium could change the topic? Though it would be a titanium task.
23:31:43 -!- pikhq has set topic: Esoteric, the land of puns | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:31:53 <oerjan> this could go on for a lantanium
23:31:54 -!- ehird has set topic: Esoteric (verb) the land of puns | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
23:32:51 <okloduk> technetiumically we could try to do something less bohrium.
23:34:26 <lament> your puns are too krypton, try to bismuth
23:35:35 <ehird> VELOCIROLLERCOASTERAPTORS
23:35:55 * okloduk realized he can just download the solution manual and get the points for free!
23:36:13 <fizzie> Money for nothing and the points for free.
23:36:46 <okloduk> "how weird that you'd do the same mistake as the solution manual!"
23:37:04 <okloduk> (actual quote, although maybe it was less exclamation marky.)
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23:37:11 <fizzie> Just try the "great minds think alike" defense.
23:37:39 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
23:39:48 <ehird> Gracenotes: see #concatenative.
23:39:52 <Gracenotes> usually, you should kick those sorts of peoples..
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23:40:34 <Sgeo[College]> void countVowels(string str, int & aCt, int & eCt, int & iCt, int & oCt, int & uCt)
23:40:35 <ehird> Gracenotes: he uses cgi:irc
23:41:46 <Sgeo[College]> Can that be quieted without quieting all cgi:irc users using that network?
23:41:49 <oerjan> Sgeo[College]: make that varargs, so you can add an optional yCt ;D
23:42:13 <ehird> Gracenotes: claims he can't sleep without knowing slava's employer; he called phone numbers and shit
23:42:13 <Sgeo[College]> Seriously, I can't believe the professor thinks this is acceptable
23:42:22 <coppro> Why is that not an array?
23:42:27 <ehird> either completely psychotic or a troll; if he's a troll, he's incredibly good and incredibly dedicated
23:42:43 <coppro> that would probably be why
23:42:52 <Sgeo[College]> My question is why don't we just do countLetters(char ch, string str) and call it multiple times
23:43:11 <coppro> I'd use that as the underlying implementaton
23:43:18 <coppro> if only to irritate him
23:44:00 <Gracenotes> well, you could quiet his nick and make the channel +z
23:44:11 <Gracenotes> anyway. >_< trolls, shouldn't devote too much attention.
23:44:39 <ehird> current prediction is that he'll die of sleep deprivation
23:46:21 <Gracenotes> or there's the kick-on-sight solution. which can escalate
23:47:42 <kerlo> Gracenotes: how far along is said day?
23:48:57 <kerlo> I was about to say that I could make a list of everything I've eaten today, but then I realized that some flour tortilla chips and BUGLES have passed under the radar.
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23:49:53 <ehird> anyone want 3gb of ddr3 ram :-P
23:51:00 <Gracenotes> actually, 1,243... screwed up grams and calories. this logging might take some getting used to :3
23:51:46 <Gracenotes> I woke up at 9:00 AM, ate breakfast (bagel, so 600 calories), took a nap, ate sushi (258 calories), then some cereal (392 calories)
23:52:32 <Gracenotes> right now it's 7:00 PM and I'm going to the gym in an hour... phew.
23:53:01 <oerjan> Gracenotes: technically, those are probably kilocalories anyway
23:53:16 <Gracenotes> yes, they are, my SHIFT KEY IS ERRATIC RIGHT NOW
23:53:33 <Gracenotes> (actually, I just forgot to capitalize the C >_>)
23:53:39 <ehird> Gracenotes: you need some more grace notes in your day
23:54:14 <Gracenotes> oh, good idea, I should go play the piano after gym ^_^
23:55:25 <oerjan> did i just sense a pun backfiring?
23:56:44 <kerlo> Let's see, about 370 Calories at breakfast, 630 at lunch, then a bunch at whatever you call that meal between lunch and dinner.
23:57:25 <Sgeo[College]> I have a feeling that if I said "linner" before ehird, ehird would make a sarcastic remark about how unclever that is
23:57:33 <ehird> Sgeo[College]: yep.
23:58:19 <kerlo> Anyway, that and a fair bit of snacking puts me somewhere near 2000, I imagine.
23:58:34 <oerjan> Sgeo[College]: he'd probably call you a dunch for it
23:58:42 <kerlo> And it's 7 PM. I wonder if I could get away with not eating for the rest of the day.
23:59:17 <Gracenotes> I tend to eat into the night... so I should take that into account.
23:59:40 <Gracenotes> I'm just starting to log everything today. So far so good... eh.
00:00:27 <kerlo> I wonder if I can find bottled water around here.
00:01:47 <Gracenotes> I have bottle water here. I can teleport it on request
00:02:11 <ehird> okloduk: tha's the troll there :
00:02:47 <okloduk> what was that in reference upon
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00:04:08 <kerlo> Send it to "c/o Modd, 4100 Kroes, Rockford, MI". I'm sure the delivery people will be able to figure out the rest.
00:07:50 <Gracenotes> that's what happens when you go to the daycare!
00:08:16 <Sgeo[College]> Did you just suggest that I'd go to the daycare to bread?
00:08:51 <Gracenotes> have you learned nothing from Pokemon!!
00:09:01 <kerlo> Unless you're applying crumbs to food.
00:11:27 <ehird> 00:11 thegoldensnitch: okloduk: Slava Pestov is the Creator
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00:15:56 <okloduk> how long has he been doing that?
00:16:23 <Gracenotes> you're talking about living in Britain, right
00:16:23 <okloduk> Gracenotes: i love touching humans
00:17:03 <Gracenotes> okay, and suppose I loved touching humus
00:17:12 <oerjan> okloduk: oh, i'd never have guessed that
00:17:51 <Gracenotes> hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmus
00:18:01 <oerjan> i think i would prefer hummus to humus, except i don't think i've met the former
00:18:05 <okloduk> that's just one instance of what i'm capable of loving to touch.
00:18:26 <oerjan> ^ul (hu)S((m)S:^):^(us)S
00:18:27 <fungot> hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...too much output!
00:18:47 <ehird> oerjan: is the "us" like the 0 at the end of 0.99999999999
00:19:19 <okloduk> ehird: problem with your suggestion is thegoldensnitch doesn't answer in priv.
00:22:07 <okloduk> looks like a bot for the most part
00:22:18 <ehird> he was in previously being very creepy
00:22:25 <Gracenotes> *puts Daft Punk on iPod to exercise to*
00:22:28 <ehird> making guesses, asking him if people were related to him
00:22:33 <ehird> called a phone number, asked about who answered
00:22:46 <ehird> he's basically stalking him.
00:23:03 <ehird> Gracenotes: what album
00:23:14 <Gracenotes> their live one... which is sort of a medley
00:23:19 <okloduk> ehird: oh? well that's much more interesting than a troll could ever be
00:23:19 <Gracenotes> trying to see which other ones I like best
00:23:33 <okloduk> and then i'd understand wanting to ban him.
00:23:58 <okloduk> but without proof i wouldn't make such an assumption, i'm always interested in seeing creepy logs ofc
00:26:55 <ehird> Zyzzyx Road (IPA pronunciation: /zΚzΙͺzΙͺkΚ°s/; or phonics: /zuh-zih-zix/) is a 2006 independent thriller film. It stars Leo Grillo, Katherine Heigl, and Tom Sizemore. The screenplay was written by John Penney, who also directed the film.
00:26:56 <ehird> The film has gained a degree of notoriety due to its extremely low U.S. box office gross ($30 USD).
00:27:00 <ehird> w/ budget of $2mil
00:29:17 <coppro> wait... as in, 3 people saw it?
00:30:04 <ehird> coppro: it's not that simple
00:30:05 <ehird> it was intentional
00:30:11 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyzzyx_Road
00:33:01 <ehird> http://www.regrettheerror.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/queen-bee.jpg
00:37:30 <oerjan> your majesty is looking mighty stingy today
00:39:31 <oerjan> maybe it's half of one
00:41:09 <oerjan> La dee dee, one two three
00:58:00 <Gracenotes> "my intent is not to make you desire me." hawt
01:01:34 <oerjan> "well then you have succeeded" might be a good comeback
01:02:02 <Gracenotes> *making love until morning's light* might be a good response
01:09:55 <Gracenotes> ehird: anyway, if necessary you guys should talk to the freenode staff about it
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01:18:37 <GregorR> Is there any revision control system that will allow you to add directories which are managed by the same RCS, including the control files? (Like if I could hg add foo/.hg). I want to keep my backups in an RCS, but I don't want to f*** around with checkouts in the checkout, I'd rather just confuse the host than try to make it behave "intelligently"
01:42:26 <coppro> What advantages would you gain from that?
01:43:27 <coppro> most RCSes store complete backups of every previous revision... I don't see why storing the lockfiles, etc. would help
01:49:48 <kerlo> "well then you have not failed" would be a more correct comeback.
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03:55:29 <Sgeo> Any thoughts on O3D/
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05:38:38 <coppro> Stuff runs slow enough in my browser as is
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09:01:54 <okloduk> As someone who has purchased programming titles from Amazon.com, you might be interested in a list of featured CSS, HTML, and java_script references. <<< yeah, a few haskell and scheme books and AOCP definitely suggest that.
09:02:31 <Slereah_> They don't go into specifics, okloduk
09:02:47 <Slereah_> They just go PROGRAMMING -> PROGRAMMING
09:03:01 <Slereah_> Which is better than Amazon Japan, who doesn't even go that far
09:03:13 <okloduk> yes, maybe they should go statistics -> sense
09:03:25 <Slereah_> I buy books on 2ch and they propose me cameras and jewelry
09:03:38 <Slereah_> They just send the same shit to everyone I assume
09:03:42 <okloduk> okay yeah i prefer javascript
09:04:28 <okloduk> the problem is if i actually want something, then i probably know exactly what i want. the rest of the stuff i want is completely random books no one has ever heard about.
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09:05:08 <okloduk> Programming Entity Framework
09:05:08 <okloduk> As someone who has purchased computer science manuals from Amazon.com, you might be interested in a list of featured Microsoft tech guides from O'Reilly.
09:05:17 <okloduk> "computer science manuals" xD
09:05:58 <Slereah_> Let's see what Amazon advises me right now
09:06:25 <okloduk> what's a computer science manual
09:07:23 <Slereah_> Flatland (Illustrated Edition), Traumeel Ointment 100 Gm Tube, Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions (Dover Thrift Editions),Traumeel-Topical Homeopathic Formula, 50 Gram Tube
09:07:40 <Slereah_> I never bought anything even somehow related
09:08:00 <okloduk> well you're gay aren't you!
09:08:30 <Slereah_> The Zombie Survival Guide, Godel's Proof, An Introduction to GΓΆdel's Theorems, I hope they serve beer in hell, Sister Time (The Posleen War)
09:08:31 <okloduk> is that a book about 2d creatures
09:08:54 <okloduk> those sound much nicer than mine
09:08:59 <Slereah_> "On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica and Related Systems, by Kurt GΓΆdel"
09:09:09 <fizzie> What Do Customers Ultimately Buy After Viewing This Item? 91% buy the item featured on this page: Installing Linux on a Dead Badger. 3% buy A Practical Guide to Linux(R) Commands, Editors, and Shell Programming. 2% buy Batman: The Dark Knight Returns.
09:09:14 <Slereah_> That article is like 30 pages at most
09:10:00 <Slereah_> "Recommended because you added Traumeel 100 TaBs to your Shopping Cart"
09:10:20 <Slereah_> Did someone snoop around in my Amazon account?
09:11:14 <Slereah_> Last orders where "The Right to Arm Bears" and "Ghost Aliens"
09:11:58 <Slereah_> No, it's not fiction. Real space bears.
09:12:20 <okloduk> well yes obviously it's real, you just hadn't told me about the space bears yet
09:12:32 <Slereah_> http://www.amazon.com/Right-Arm-Bears-Gordon-Dickson/dp/0671319590/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240474343&sr=8-1
09:12:46 <okloduk> okay next one, i have limited interest for fiction
09:13:20 <okloduk> is that you know about cellular automata?
09:13:34 <fizzie> Well, uh... my amazon.com recommendations are: "Polk Audio Monitor 70 3-Way Floorstanding Speaker", "PlayStation 3 Frontman Wireless Guitar - Black", "Sony SS-B1000 5 1/8-Inch bookshelf speakers (Pair)" and "ACOUSTIC RESEARCH AP-16100W 100' White 16 Gauge Oxygen-Free Speaker Wire". And as far as I know I have never purchased anything audio-related from Amazon.
09:13:50 <Slereah_> Do you remember the website REAL Ultimate Power?
09:14:39 <fizzie> "Recommended because you added Pioneer VSX-917V-S Home Theater Receiver (Silver) to your Shopping Cart". Hm. Maybe I wanted to see their shipping price for something like that or something.
09:14:40 <Slereah_> http://www.amazon.com/Ghosts-Aliens-Trey-Hamburger/dp/0307407306/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240474469&sr=1-1
09:14:41 <okloduk> fizzie: they deduce what you do by the way you move your mouse.
09:15:02 <Slereah_> Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought
09:15:02 <Slereah_> REAL Ultimate Power: The Official Ninja Book by Robert Hamburger
09:15:03 <Slereah_> 4.3 out of 5 stars (229) $9.95
09:15:07 <Slereah_> The Alphabet Of Manliness by Maddox
09:15:09 <Slereah_> 4.5 out of 5 stars (225) $10.85
09:15:13 <Slereah_> The Zombie Survival Guide: Complete Protection from... by Max Brooks
09:15:15 <Slereah_> 4.4 out of 5 stars (398) $10.94
09:16:01 <okloduk> well, they do sound interesting.
09:16:22 <fizzie> Aw, all my recommendations are because of that home theater receiver I didn't even seriously want to buy. And anyway I'm not quite sure how "McCulloch MC-1275 Heavy Duty Steam Cleaner " is related to it.
09:16:46 <okloduk> fizzie: have you bought things other?
09:16:56 <fizzie> (Or "Lavazza Crema e Aroma Coffee Beans, 2.2-Pound Bag"... I guess music-listeners are avid coffee drinkers?)
09:17:10 <fizzie> Yes, I've bought a book or two. Apparently they weren't interesting enough.
09:17:45 <Slereah_> Buy "Underground Fisting III", you'll get more colorful suggestions.
09:17:53 <fizzie> I don't suppose these recommendations differ between amazon.com and .de/.co.uk? I'm not sure which one I used for actual purchases.
09:18:25 <fizzie> "You have no Amazon purchases or items you told us you own." Maybe it is domain-specific, then. Or they just forgot my orders.
09:20:18 <fizzie> Yes, if I use .co.uk I get (in the "items you own" page) the TAOCP box, "Concrete Mathematics: Foundation for Computer Science" (wait, I don't remember buying this...), "Art of 3D Computer Animation and Effects" (as a course text-book, and not even for me) and "My Tank Is Fight". Not a very long shopping history.
09:21:10 <okloduk> i own more items than you.
09:21:26 <fizzie> The recommendations here are more sensible. Although I do get the "The Zombie Survival Guide: Complete Protection from the Living Dead" result too. I guess Amazon's just worried about loyal customers being eaten by zombies.
09:21:56 <fizzie> Also "How to Survive a Robot Uprising: Tips on Defending Yourself Against the Coming Rebellion". It certainly sounds like they're trying to tell me something.
09:22:15 <Slereah_> fizzie : Did you buy any internet related book?
09:22:25 <Slereah_> Like the Alphabet of Manliness or something
09:22:47 <fizzie> I just listed my complete shopping history up in the third-to-last comment before this one.
09:23:31 <okloduk> are all recommendations mailed to me? i can't actually access the user, my dad just decided to start forwarding amazon spam to me.
09:23:47 <okloduk> (essentially my account, i just don't pay anything naturally)
09:23:48 <fizzie> Both the zombie and the robot books are "Recommended because you purchased My Tank is Fight". I guess that makes sense.
09:24:00 <Slereah_> Internet people buy internet books
09:24:23 <Slereah_> The Alphabet of Manliness and Real Ultimate Power shouldn't be far behind
09:24:43 <okloduk> "a practical guide to racism"
09:24:58 <okloduk> how's that on the front page?
09:25:18 <okloduk> but i don't buy stuff from amazon.
09:25:24 <Slereah_> Let's lynch niggers or something
09:25:35 <Slereah_> okloduk : It also takes into accounts the books you looked at
09:25:45 <okloduk> i guess it could be something like anti-racism, but sure as hell doesn't look like it
09:25:54 <okloduk> Slereah_: oh. that would be what you linked.
09:26:09 <okloduk> Slereah_: they remember my ip and store what i've viewed?
09:26:59 <Slereah_> But do you have one, logged on right no
09:27:23 <Slereah_> Then it's prolly a cookie or something
09:28:08 <okloduk> i should probably go now. i'm being in a hurry of sorts.
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13:40:25 <okloduk> so long uninteresting story, here goes
13:40:54 <okloduk> you know how when there's a melody playd with an instrument that does not give you the beat, basically you need to deduce where bars start and end yourself
13:41:11 <okloduk> now, anyone who know music at all will automatically find the correct "intuitive" barring
13:41:54 <okloduk> now i've always enjoyed my music as weird as possible, and i wasn't particularly good at this barring thing (and i still don't find the same intuitive barring every time, for instance recently for one of ihope's melodies).
13:42:03 <okloduk> so there was this ice cream truck
13:42:17 <okloduk> and i remember being fascinated by the melody it plays when i was a kid
13:42:38 <okloduk> because the times are first 4/4, then an extra beat, then 3/4 till the end
13:43:06 <okloduk> now i suddenly realized this has probably just been a failure in hearing what it's supposed to be
13:43:48 <okloduk> and, after a moment of intensive thinking (takes a moment to find another interpretation for something you've known since you were 6), i ruined the melody.
13:43:57 <okloduk> it's not interesting now that it's 3/4.
13:44:31 <okloduk> and instrument in question was something of a sine wave.
13:44:58 <okloduk> *good at this barring thing as a kid
13:45:12 <okloduk> *the same intuitive barring as most people
13:45:29 <fizzie> I think our (read: the one that goes around in the Helsinki/Espoo region) ice-cream truck sound sounds also like it could be 3/4. I wonder if it's a standard.
13:46:17 <okloduk> e|4740.e|4740.e|8.85.5|3.....
13:46:48 <fizzie> Yes, that's really very similar. At least the shape of it; I'm very non-musical in other ways.
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13:47:39 <fizzie> I have to immediately-depart now, anyway. But it's good they have standardized the ice-cream truck sound. Wouldn't want people getting confused.
13:55:07 <okloduk> |5.52.2|0..... ofc, i'm used to minor
13:55:15 <okloduk> not that anyone actually tried that out
14:04:36 <okloduk> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/music/anicecreamymelody.mid <<< for the wrong melody.
14:42:21 <GregorR> #1 rule of IRC: There shall be no more bots than people. So I need more people in #plof :P
14:49:33 * okloduk is tempted to join a few bots on #plof
14:54:12 <Deewiant> Fun facts about the DMD frontend: nothing is private or protected, everything is public
15:05:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
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15:22:30 <nooga> wtf is this apple shit
15:22:41 <nooga> how am i supposed to code under that :<
15:23:14 -!- rabideejit has joined.
15:24:14 <rabideejit> Hello. I have an irc bot which executes a few esoteric languages, in case anyone would like to see.
15:26:01 <nooga> what langs does it support?
15:26:16 <rabideejit> so far, brainfuck, malbolge, whirl, unlambda and the sk calculus.
15:26:28 * nooga fights osx macfaggotry
15:26:54 <nooga> rabideejit: bring it please
15:26:58 -!- esotericbot has joined.
15:27:05 <esotericbot> Try 'help' followed by one of the following: wh mb sk bf ul
15:27:24 <rabideejit> >mb (=<`$9]7<5YXz7wT.3,+O/o'K%$H"'~D|#z@b=`{^Lx8%$Xmrkpohm-kNi;gsedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543s+O<oLm
15:27:46 <Deewiant> >bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
15:27:55 <Deewiant> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
15:28:14 <rabideejit> have a shot! If you don't like anything, I can change it. It's not yet running upon the net, only my pc.
15:28:22 <rabideejit> It seems someone found a bug already :p
15:28:35 <esotericbot> No output, sorry! ( Unless your program printed this message )
15:28:42 <esotericbot> No output, sorry! ( Unless your program printed this message )
15:29:37 <rabideejit> the child process are killed after a few seconds, or when they use to much memory
15:30:11 <Deewiant> Methinks that "No output, sorry!" is a bit verbose
15:30:55 <esotericbot> No output, sorry! ( Unless your program printed this message )
15:31:01 <fungot> SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM ...too much output!
15:31:18 <rabideejit> I never realized fungot was another bot
15:31:18 <fungot> rabideejit: on the door.
15:32:14 <rabideejit> Or am I more confused? Too much haskell
15:33:10 <Deewiant> Ah right, fungot's ^ul is Underload, not Unlambda.
15:33:11 <fungot> Deewiant: something tapped on the door! and you lot back thereβ' he turned and waved at the leading troll. there was doing the washing and the summoning of the small dusty bedroom window at the glow at the end of his cane.
15:33:55 <fungot> rabideejit: ' yes, probably the excitement.' herb was hypnotized by the glassy stare and tried fnord to focus.
15:34:08 <Deewiant> Not that I know of. There's source, though.
15:34:25 <Deewiant> rabideejit: Source at http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
15:34:26 <fungot> Deewiant: " and then we'd be really inconspicuous." he glanced out of the swimming pool."
15:36:33 <Deewiant> Which, with its extension mechanism (called "fingerprints"), has spawned interpreters that can do things like socket communication
15:37:34 <nooga> wonder if it's possible to write neat C to b98 compiler
15:38:15 <Deewiant> I don't think any interpreter supports calling external C functions yet, though AnMaster was working on binding to libffi
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15:39:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was yes. But it turned out to be too tricky to properly describe from inside befunge.
15:40:35 <nooga> i meant C as a language, not fully legal C99 with libc
15:40:38 <Slereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainFNORD
15:40:41 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
15:40:52 <AnMaster> nooga, this was with a ffi library
15:41:15 <Deewiant> A safe subset of C (no arbitrary pointers and such) which is contained within a single .c file could probably be done without too much brain damage
15:41:17 <AnMaster> still, it was a nightmare trying to work out how to describe the layout of structs and unions from inside a befunge program
15:41:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, variable argument count isn't even supported by libffi iirc
15:41:53 <AnMaster> so you can't do printf/scanf or such
15:43:38 <AnMaster> oh you meant compiling C to befunge
15:43:46 <AnMaster> pretty sure I saw that for some subset before
15:44:12 <AnMaster> or maybe I'm mixing it up with the other way around (and then a non-selfmodifying subset)
15:44:22 <Deewiant> J^4 had something which was unfinished
15:44:34 <Deewiant> http://www.phlamethrower.co.uk/befunge/c2b.php
15:46:09 <AnMaster> um a friend who isn't very good at computer just asked me what a good antivirus program for windows is. Anyone know? Only one I can think of is AVG but I don't know how good it is these days.
15:46:38 <AnMaster> I guess you would know Deewiant ^
15:46:39 <Deewiant> I think AVG is the best free one in terms of detection rate
15:46:52 <Deewiant> I don't use antivirus programs pretty much ever
15:47:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, good enough for someone who won't remember "are you sure?" dialogs 5 seconds after they clicked yes without reading the text?
15:47:39 <Deewiant> Beats me, people complain about its UI
15:48:08 <Deewiant> I don't use antivirus programs like that
15:48:20 <AnMaster> the person used a trial version of McAfee before he said.
15:48:30 <Deewiant> I take every effort to make sure they don't start up automatically and use them only as on-demand scanners
15:48:57 <AnMaster> what has that got to do with it.
15:48:59 <nooga> and i feel like a faggot :<
15:49:31 <nooga> i am using osx and linux, i'm trying to code for iphone ;p
15:51:36 <nooga> don't get me wrong, osx is quite good piece of software: quite unixy, ergonomic gui, support etc.
15:52:24 <AnMaster> nooga, and the windows look like they went into a vacuum cleaner when you minimize them! ;P
15:52:27 <nooga> but coding for osx and iphone was mean to be glittering, easy, pretty, funny, chilling etc etc, like every other thing invented by apple
15:53:17 <AnMaster> (though to be fair you can actually turn that eye candy off iirc)
15:53:25 <nooga> but at the moment i'm trying to hack this xcode faggotry, understand one milion new extensions and file formats
15:53:58 <nooga> and use this smalltalkish objC that went mad
15:54:46 <nooga> and terminal is also a bit fucked up
15:55:22 <rabideejit> I hate IDEs. I like clean simple editors like VIM. Automatically generating good documentation as you go along is more important. In my opinion. Then again, I'm unemployed! :D
15:56:50 <nooga> but there is also good side: macbook composes pretty well with my sports jacket
15:57:58 <rabideejit> Are there any intercal interpreters, or is a compiled language only?
15:59:42 <nooga> now it's time to work on my SADOL3 compiler
15:59:53 <nooga> and then the fun part: i'll bootstrap it
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16:03:08 <rabideejit> I really should go and study linear algebra instead of writing silly code :(
16:04:13 -!- rabideejit has quit ("Leaving.").
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16:51:56 <AnMaster> what is the difference between "upgrade" and "update"... Or are they true synonyms. They seem to mean the same as far as I can tell.
16:52:12 <AnMaster> or are at least used the same way very often.
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17:00:09 <Slereah_> Upgrade seems to be used more for softwares
17:08:49 <nooga_> valid sadol code: a giant cock spits on a face with aureole
17:16:36 <AnMaster> efunge now only supports Erlang R13B-0 (released two days ago). It may or may not work on older versions, but if you find a bug with that I recommend you to upgrade.
17:16:56 <Deewiant> Does cfunge only support GCC 4.4.0, too? ;-P
17:18:03 <nooga_> efunge = befunge implementation in erlang?
17:18:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no cfunge works on GCC 3.4, 4.1.2, 4.2.1 (llvm-gcc), 4.3.2 and 4.3.3, ICC 10.1, recent svn versions of clang and Open64 (forgot version) at least.
17:18:33 <AnMaster> I don't have older GCC versions around to test with.
17:18:50 <AnMaster> http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/efunge/
17:18:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You haven't upgraded to 4.4.0?
17:18:56 <AnMaster> also see http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/
17:19:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I wasn't aware of that it was released
17:19:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also it isn't even stable on Arch yet!
17:19:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Neither is Erlang R13B-0...
17:20:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, package flagged out of date. And it is in testing on gentoo (and for erlang I track the ~arch version on gentoo)
17:20:47 <Deewiant> Where can one set such a flag for non-AUR stuff?
17:20:57 <AnMaster> <Slereah_> Upgrade seems to be used more for softwares <Slereah_> Updates more for messages <-- hardware upgrade/update? Virus definition upgrade/update?
17:21:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err http://www.archlinux.org/, package search
17:21:45 <Deewiant> Ah, there's a link there too, haven't noticed
17:21:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but searching for erlang gives two red results meaning it is already flagged
17:21:52 <Deewiant> Pacman doesn't show the flag, though
17:22:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: And gcc is flagged out of date as well. :-P
17:23:19 <AnMaster> anyway I have no idea if efunge works on R12B-* any longer. I'm pretty sure the old version of dialyzer will barf on the last few revisions of efunge though. Not sure if compiler will handle it.
17:24:24 <GregorR> I have been on the tip of sneezing for like ten minutes. Now my nose is running and I still can't effing sneeze >_<
17:27:02 <AnMaster> "The protoize and unprotoize utilities have been obsoleted and will be removed in GCC 4.5"
17:39:43 <AnMaster> nooga_, you seemed interested in efunge before. :)
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17:47:10 <oerjan> <Slereah_> What's with all the Traumeel?
17:47:17 <GregorR> After reading the man page on protoize, I haven't a fekking clue what it does :P
17:47:29 <oerjan> probably it deduces flat earth -> homeopathy ;D
17:47:55 -!- nooga_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:49:19 <oerjan> <Slereah_> ... I hope they serve beer in hell ...
17:49:31 <oerjan> i wouldn't bet on it being the right temperature, though
17:59:41 <ehird> GregorR: k&r prototypes
17:59:42 <ehird> 12:42 okloduk: and i remember being fascinated by the melody it plays when i was a kid
17:59:43 <ehird> 12:42 okloduk: because the times are first 4/4, then an extra beat, then 3/4 till the end
17:59:44 <ehird> 12:43 okloduk: now i suddenly realized this has probably just been a failure in hearing what it's supposed to be
18:00:40 <oerjan> okloduk: don't let anybody take away your childhood dreams!
18:01:42 <ehird> also A Practical Guide to Racism is a 2007 humorous satirical book written by Sam Means under the pseudonym C.H. Dalton. The book is similar to the Douglas Sutherland book The English Gentleman, in that it is constructed as a "guide" to the behaviors of various social groups (in this case ethnic races) built entirely out of stereotypes associated with said groups.
18:02:52 <ehird> okloduk: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/music/anicecreamymelody.mid β is this the non-true one
18:03:48 <ehird> 07:07 andrewSC: how would i get access to the values typed before a word?
18:03:48 <ehird> 07:07 andrewSC: ie
18:03:49 <ehird> 07:07 andrewSC: 1 2 3 4 5 reverse
18:03:51 <ehird> 07:08 andrewSC: the word reverse would then put the numbers in reverse order on the stack.
18:03:53 <ehird> 07:08 andrewSC: i'm not sure how to get access to them..
18:04:44 <okloduk> ehird: what i linked there was the one where i failed to type it down for fizzie.
18:04:57 <ehird> okloduk: is it the 4/4 and 3/4 weird thing
18:05:00 <ehird> or is it the real version
18:05:30 <okloduk> the differences in timing do not really show, well, they would show in the backing instruments ofc.
18:05:39 <ehird> Organisasjonsnummer: 979 829 299
18:05:39 <ehird> Navn/foretaksnavn:';UPDATE TAXRATE SET RATE = 0 WHERE
18:05:40 <ehird> NAME = 'EDVIN SYSE'
18:05:42 <ehird> http://w2.brreg.no/enhet/sok/detalj.jsp?orgnr=979829299
18:10:26 <GregorR> ehird: OHHHH, K&R prototypes. That explains more.
18:10:57 <pikhq> K&R prototypes: aren't they wonderful?
18:11:15 <ehird> They're prettier than new-style C.
18:11:18 <oerjan> ehird: that's some broken second field
18:11:47 <oerjan> it's supposed to be the company name
18:12:35 <oerjan> or did he actually try an SQL injection on the norwegian company register? :D
18:13:29 <ehird> oerjan: it's called a joke
18:13:36 <ehird> he registered it as a joke.
18:13:57 <oerjan> oh yes that makes sense :D
18:17:58 <oerjan> i was too hung up in you pasting a link in norwegian to notice what the point was :D
18:22:15 <ehird> ubuntu 9.04 can be made to look really pretty
18:23:36 <oerjan> but can you put it on a dead badger?
18:23:47 <oerjan> _and_ make it look pretty, at the same time?
18:23:50 <ehird> as long as it has at least 30% of the body as brain
18:24:21 <oerjan> wait, not even humans have that much brain
18:24:45 <pikhq> I've got to give credit to ISO: they managed to make C better without making anything worse.
18:24:54 <oerjan> or was that the point?
18:25:01 <pikhq> (unlike when they standardised C++. "Throw it all in there! ALL OF IT!")
18:25:53 <ehird> i wish we could hurry up and disband ISO
18:26:51 -!- nooga_ has joined.
18:29:56 <oerjan> <okloduk> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/music/anicecreamymelody.mid <<< for the wrong melody. <<< i read that as "a nice creamy melody"
18:30:44 <oerjan> before seeing the explanation
18:31:39 * oerjan notes okloduk probably has the same numlock system as his laptop
18:31:40 <AnMaster> nooga_, not sure if you saw: <AnMaster> nooga_, you seemed interested in efunge before. :)
18:32:28 <ehird> you're obsessed AnMaster
18:32:28 <nooga_> ge, i'm at work you know?
18:32:36 <ehird> one mention and bam, on his trail
18:32:41 <AnMaster> nooga_, I wasn't aware of that. Sorry
18:33:01 <ehird> he was talking about how he disliked developing iphone stuff at work
18:33:03 <ehird> around the same time
18:33:49 <ehird> why isn't gcc's -pedantic instead -Wpedantic
18:35:59 * ehird messes with gnome appearance settings. http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6913/screenshotrdn.png
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18:53:34 <ehird> http://www.silentpcreview.com/prolima-megahelams Oh my god YES.
18:57:16 <ehird> nooga_: No. Not yuck.
18:57:22 <nooga_> i will not take screenshots
18:57:33 <nooga_> on this goddamn machine by apple
18:58:27 <nooga_> i gues that UI was created to be soothing, and yes, it's necessary because dev under osx makes me boil
19:03:03 <nooga_> hi, i'm a mac. and i'm a pc
19:14:35 <Deewiant> Woot! I realized the obvious workaround to #2339 and CCBI 2 passes Mycology again!
19:17:23 <Deewiant> 'course, it took a few hours of hacking to implement the workaround
19:18:13 <ehird> Deewiant: what was the workaround?
19:18:16 <ehird> also SWEET ASS ON A STICK <3
19:18:29 <Deewiant> Mercurial, and not yet committed
19:18:36 <Deewiant> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2339 - last comment is the workaround
19:18:44 <Deewiant> Obvious, of course, in hindsight :-P
19:19:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:19:31 <Deewiant> ehird: I'll convert it to git when I get this branch merged with the CCBI-1 changes of the past 8 months
19:19:49 <ehird> if it's 2, why are you using substantial code from 1
19:19:51 <Deewiant> I haven't dared do it as long as I have two different branches around
19:20:21 <Deewiant> Well, er, because I have an essentially complete Befunge-98 implementation with a billion fingerprints?
19:20:32 <Deewiant> Of course I want to reuse as much as possible :-P
19:20:40 <Deewiant> It's fricking 9k lines of code
19:20:41 <ehird> Deewiant: So why are you making a 2?
19:21:00 <ehird> Deewiant: Cleanup isn't exactly a major version bump.
19:21:19 <Deewiant> But the cleanup makes cool things possible
19:21:27 <Deewiant> Like MVRS, trefunge, unefunge, etc
19:22:20 <Deewiant> Hm, workarounds for 4 DMDFE bugs in 47 lines of code
19:24:42 <nooga_> what are fingerprints?
19:25:32 <Deewiant> The extension mechanism of Funge-98
19:26:08 <ehird> nooga_: they define the instructions A-Z
19:26:16 <ehird> "OOF"(...) uses FOO
19:26:22 <Deewiant> Essentially, you give a 32-bit value to ( and it overrides A-Z
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19:42:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: Incidentally, I saw that bp09 4k intro you were advertizing today on a big screen (the DOT people were showing bp09 prods in the T1 lecture hall 18-20), and it was still neat; but also neat was the second-best one, which was actually a 1k intro. Since, you know, 4096 bytes is so much, it's hard to figure out use for all those bytes.
19:42:17 <Deewiant> Yes, I saw the 1k one as well.
19:42:32 <Deewiant> TBH I think it should have won, 1k is insane. :-P
19:44:31 <ehird> You guys have demosceners demonstrating shit at your university?
19:44:41 <ehird> Fucking hell, Finland. Stop being so awesome.
19:44:44 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMaNxyHhH6A is the 1k one apparently.
19:44:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Just a student union or whatever it's called.
19:45:25 <Deewiant> Not especially awesome, IMO. Likely to happen at any university.
19:45:30 <fizzie> Yes, some sort of sub-organization of the student union. And it's not especially large or active one.
19:45:35 <Deewiant> Awesome, sure, but not special.
19:45:58 <fizzie> Demosceney stuff is rather more popular than the average here in Finland, though.
19:46:02 <ehird> i wonder if they used the & trick
19:47:09 <ehird> lament: I tried to make that once
19:47:13 <ehird> then I realised it wasn't meaningful.
19:50:09 <ehird> GeoCities will close later this year.
19:50:09 <ehird> Why is GeoCities not accepting new customers?
19:50:11 <ehird> We have decided to discontinue the process of allowing new customers to sign up for GeoCities accounts as we focus on helping our customers explore and build new relationships online in other ways. We will be closing GeoCities later this year.
19:54:15 <nooga_> f-script is quite nice eso lang
19:54:23 <nooga_> together with objective c
19:55:06 <ehird> F-Script = Smalltalk in almost all ways.
19:55:17 <ehird> Objective-C = C, except [...] denotes Smalltalk land. Not hard.
19:55:25 <nooga_> wtf are things like NSArrayWithObjectsAndKeys
19:55:27 <ehird> Cocoa = umm, have you ever used gtk? Qt? Windows APIs?
19:55:41 <ehird> nooga_: according to google, that class does not exist.
19:55:53 <ehird> If you're going to dis, try and have the facts on your side.
19:55:58 <nooga_> [PleaseDoMeAFavorAndDiePlease]
19:56:20 <ehird> Right, you're an idiot.
20:13:47 <fizzie> I misparsed that oklomusic URL as "a nice creamy melody"; or I guess that was intentional?
20:15:03 <Deewiant> Hmm, took a bit of pondering just now to realize "icecreamy"
20:17:29 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANbDyUY0ho4 β I want a monitor this high DPI.
20:19:35 <okloduk> fizzie: yes yes, it is intentional.
20:19:58 <okloduk> i was gonna put it as anicemelody first, but then i realized no one would get it.
20:20:11 <okloduk> because anice... is the default parsing anyway
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20:32:18 <ehird> 20:31 andrewSC: i spent alot of time learning forth last night and i think doing this recursively with a variable would be the easiest thing todo
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21:02:49 <oerjan> argh, C:\RECYCLER is a virus?
21:02:52 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:03:03 * oerjan hopes AVG can remove it
21:03:50 * oerjan wonders if he should run the full scan more often than every 14 days...
21:05:25 <oerjan> i started a full scan with AVG free, and it has found 4 trojan files so far
21:05:53 <oerjan> 3 of them in the C:\RECYCLER directory, which a bit of googling hints is a virus thing
21:06:46 <oerjan> moreover i think i recognize those files as something AVG removed before, from the old version i had of simon tatham's puzzles
21:07:17 <oerjan> also, there was a trojan in a file in my documents folder which i don't recall putting there at all
21:07:20 <ehird> c:\recycler is legit; things inside may not be
21:07:34 <ais523> it's where all the files you delete are stored
21:07:43 <ais523> viruses often hide there because people don't think of looking there
21:07:48 <oerjan> ok maybe recycler just kept it then
21:07:51 <ais523> and because Windows doesn't display it as part of C by default
21:07:55 <ehird> c:\recycler is not the recycle bin
21:08:03 <ais523> ehird: oh, that's c:\deleted
21:08:07 <ais523> what's c:\recycler, then?
21:08:07 <ehird> it's some sort of fucked up alternate recycle bin
21:08:23 <ehird> ubuntu 9.04 is nice.
21:08:53 <ehird> http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6913/screenshotrdn.png β nice.
21:09:02 <ehird> i have said this before
21:09:07 <Deewiant> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/171694 - recycler vs. recycle bin
21:09:38 <ehird> (That theme is "new wave dark menus" controls, but with the window colour as #D9D4CC, and the window border as Dust)
21:09:49 <ehird> basically, dust + new wave dark menus + #D9D4CC window.
21:09:53 <AnMaster> I thought it was c:\trash or something?
21:10:48 <AnMaster> ehird, meh, I only used translated windows. And it translates randomly. c:\Program Files -> c:\Program c:\Document and Settings is not translated.
21:11:19 <ais523> it's ~/.local/share/Trash/files on here
21:11:28 <ais523> that explains why my .local is so big, at least
21:11:34 <Deewiant> I don't think I've ever seen a program that would be 100% translated :-P
21:12:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually, most KDE apps tends to have complete translations to Swedish
21:12:58 <ehird> ais523: I turned compiz on by mistake and can't get it off.
21:13:03 <ais523> BSD /bin/true is completely translated
21:13:04 <ehird> as in, it doesn't work in this vm
21:13:12 <ais523> ehird: System | Appearance | Desktop Effects, set to "none"
21:13:21 <ais523> * System | Preferences | Appeareance
21:13:29 <ehird> ais523: yeah, because seeing as my system is broken, I can get a gnome session up
21:13:43 <ehird> i have a very nice text console :-)
21:13:44 <ais523> boot into gnome safe mode?
21:13:52 <ehird> it tries to start compiz.
21:13:57 <ais523> what, even failsafe gnome/
21:14:09 <ehird> AnMaster: failsafe gnome
21:14:16 <AnMaster> and specifically since when was it windows.
21:14:44 <AnMaster> ehird, this is a lot easier when you do your config by editing text files. ;P
21:14:49 <ehird> gnome does that too.
21:14:57 <ehird> except with a sane ui on top.
21:17:25 <ehird> ais523: DISPLAY=:0 metacity --replace
21:17:37 <ais523> heh, that's something rather different
21:17:49 <ais523> that's not "don't load compiz", but "tell metacity to boot off compiz and use itself instead"
21:17:57 <ehird> then I use that to fix it
21:18:04 <ehird> dunno, I'm rebooting
21:21:30 <oerjan> crashing VMs could be a nice geek band name
21:24:06 <ais523> /someone/ has to create a notable band called Main Page sometime, Wikipedia have been waiting for it for years
21:24:13 <ehird> Nah, it should be a book.
21:24:24 <ehird> then it has an excuse
21:24:36 <Deewiant> http://dontclickthis.whatingods.name/battletoads.jpg
21:24:41 <oklopol> haha, i fixed my keyboard by stepping on it :D
21:24:55 <ais523> the founder of MySQL just forked it
21:25:13 <ais523> we can have MySQL vs. MySQL now, could be fun
21:25:57 <ehird> "Sun Microsystems announced three new MySQL products: MySQL 5.4, MySQL Cluster 7.0 and MySQL Enterprise Partner Program for 'Remote DBA' service providers."
21:26:00 * ais523 wonders how many other people have had to fork their own program
21:26:30 <ehird> Well this is irritating
21:26:37 <ais523> Deewiant: is that a Lua ~=, or a Perl ~=?
21:26:46 <ais523> wait, those are both =~
21:27:00 <ais523> I never seem to remember it
21:28:53 <fizzie> MATLAB's "not equal" is ~=.
21:29:03 <fizzie> And MATLAB's unary logical not is ~, too.
21:29:59 <fizzie> They use ! for shell-escapades.
21:30:01 <ehird> ais523: can i just nuke compiz from the face of the ubuntu
21:30:30 <ais523> ehird: sudo apt-get remove compiz-gnome should work
21:30:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Β‘x could be equal to !!x.
21:30:45 <ais523> but removing something that's in Ubuntu by default causes it to no longer update your set of packages to contain the default set
21:31:17 <ais523> also, my download speed seems to be basically zero for trying to install updates
21:31:24 <ehird> oerjan: please don't
21:31:25 <Deewiant> Quylthulg should use !xΒ‘ for negation
21:31:26 <ais523> I'll do it at the University tomorrow instead, and meanwhile, wonder if I'm being throttled
21:31:27 <ehird> ais523: a friend's too
21:31:35 <oerjan> there's no reason why there cannot be an esolang named "Main Page", isn't it? >:)
21:31:36 <ehird> he started it this morning; it'll finish in an hour and a half
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21:31:41 <ehird> ais523: high demand
21:31:54 <ais523> Jaunty release was released today, wasn't it?
21:32:12 <Deewiant> Whaat, Chris Pressey is writing Haskell now
21:32:13 * ais523 system | administration | software sources
21:32:26 <ais523> I'll do the ping-all-the-mirrors test there
21:32:36 <ais523> and change back to the main mirror in a couple of days
21:33:06 <ehird> Deewiant: Since 2007-06-17, apparently.
21:33:16 <ehird> w/ http://catseye.tc/projects/hev/
21:33:31 <ehird> -- Reference Interpreter for the Hev Programming Language
21:33:32 <ehird> -- Begun November 2005, fleshed out October 2006, polished off June 2007
21:33:32 <Deewiant> ehird: http://unix.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/FreeBSD/questions/2003-11/1332.html sez he's liked it since at least 2003.
21:33:34 <ehird> Deewiant: since 2005 at least.
21:33:49 <Deewiant> http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2001-February/002738.html 2001.
21:35:01 <ehird> ais523: ok, now I haev gnome without metacity.
21:35:25 <ais523> how can you tell it's Gnome, tehn?
21:35:43 <ehird> ais523: erm... the panels?
21:35:51 <ais523> oh, I thought the window manager managed those
21:40:56 <ehird> it still doesn't work
21:41:15 <ehird> I'd ask #ubuntu, but, uh, you can figure out why not.
21:41:43 <ais523> hmm... an anon asks on Groklaw how to leave a comment "there"
21:42:00 <ais523> I misread it as "here", and am about to leave them a description of how to comment on Groklaw when I realise the irony of what I'm doing
21:43:42 <ehird> How can I make it do metacity...
21:44:08 <ais523> can't you use your install just to turn visual effects off?
21:44:14 <ais523> that switches the WM to metacity at the same time
21:45:23 <ais523> rename all your dotfiles?
21:45:30 -!- tombom_ has joined.
21:46:09 <ehird> selected Normal effects, pressed enter to hit the invisible "DON'T KEEP DAMMIT:"
21:46:15 <ehird> and voila, now logging out and logging about in retains metacitiness
21:46:38 <AnMaster> <ais523> /someone/ has to create a notable band called Main Page sometime, Wikipedia have been waiting for it for years <-- what about Main Page (band)
21:46:43 <AnMaster> I'm sure that is what will be done
21:46:49 <ehird> AnMaster: where will the disambiguation be put
21:46:53 <ehird> on the top of the main page?
21:46:54 <ais523> oh, the don't keep timeout works both ways
21:47:14 <ais523> I think they should move the Main Page to Portal:Main now, in order to avoid such problems in future
21:47:25 <ehird> ais523: and break every bookmark ever
21:47:35 <ais523> there'd still be a redirect
21:48:02 <ehird> so where does the disambig go
21:48:17 <AnMaster> better idea would be to move it to WP:Main Page
21:48:37 <ehird> if it has to be moved, Portal:Main is correct.
21:49:11 <AnMaster> also why would it break bookmarks
21:49:25 <AnMaster> rather than http://en.wikipedia.org
21:49:32 <ehird> when you go to wikipedia
21:49:36 <ehird> the url is /wiki/Main_Page
21:49:38 <ehird> if you hit bookmark
21:49:41 <ehird> you get that as your bookmark
21:49:50 <AnMaster> if you hit bookmark you strip that bit off
21:49:59 <oerjan> Main Page itself has to be the disamb page
21:50:03 <ehird> nobody else does though.
21:50:03 <AnMaster> or wait I'm out of touch with average person again I think
21:50:11 <oerjan> otherwise you would need too many clicks to get to the portal
21:50:14 <AnMaster> why is the real world so stupid.
21:50:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it's better to have /wiki/Main_Page.
21:50:22 <ehird> AnMaster: one less redirect.
21:50:28 <ehird> (this is, after all, the kind of thing you care about.)
21:50:45 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I don't have the wikipedia page book marked
21:50:48 <ais523> actually, there was a consensus to rename it to the null string if technically possible; unfortunately, it wasn't
21:50:52 <AnMaster> I use wikipedia in my search bar
21:51:04 <ais523> my Wikipedia bookmark is Special:Watchlist
21:51:06 <ehird> ais523: that's still articlespace
21:51:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:51:31 <AnMaster> google as default, then wikipedia, wikit<spelling for the dictionary thing, forgot it> and finally esolang wiki
21:52:05 <AnMaster> anyway not a book or a band named main page
21:52:19 <AnMaster> even more reason for a disambig page
21:52:23 <ehird> a book with accompanying soundtrack
21:52:28 <ehird> performed by a band of the same name
21:52:33 <ehird> also, the soundtrack is called Main Page
21:52:38 <ehird> the book is turned into a film
21:52:45 <ehird> with a different soundtrack
21:52:47 <AnMaster> why don't some admins get together and start an electronic band named main page
21:52:49 <ehird> which is published as Main Page, by Main Page
21:52:51 <ehird> but it's a different band
21:52:53 <ehird> and a different album
21:52:58 <ehird> AnMaster: non-notable
21:52:59 <AnMaster> with all live performances being tele conferences!
21:53:19 <ehird> even with specialized programs w/ algorithms to combat lag
21:53:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you tried to perform music across a teleconference?
21:54:04 <ais523> <Groklaw> Your last comment was 45 seconds ago. This site requires at least 45 seconds between comments
21:54:10 <ais523> rounding error, I suspect
21:54:15 <ehird> AnMaster: i recommend that if this Main Page band comes into fruition, it is a noise band
21:54:18 <ehird> then you can't notice
21:54:18 <AnMaster> actually it might be easier to get an established artist to call his last album "Main Page"
21:54:31 <ehird> you could be the millionth collaborator of merzbow!
21:54:53 <ehird> ais523: what's the name of the sell-your-soul restricted extras package?
21:54:54 <ehird> AnMaster: noise music
21:55:05 <ehird> AnMaster: it's music that is just noise.
21:55:07 <AnMaster> and what do you mean with "merzbow"
21:55:18 <ehird> merzbow is a crazy ass japanese noise musician
21:55:22 <ais523> ehird: ubuntu-restricted-extras, IIRC
21:55:25 <ehird> who's also hugely vegan
21:55:36 <ehird> unfortunately, you can kill animals with his music
21:55:40 <ehird> so that didn't really work out
21:55:43 <ais523> I'm not sure if the restricted repo is available by default, it's trivial to turn it on via software sources if it isn't
21:55:58 <ehird> it is by default indeed
21:56:00 <ehird> but no such package
21:56:16 <ais523> ubuntu-restricted-extras - Commonly used restricted packages
21:56:26 <ehird> AnMaster: mp3 and what not
21:56:43 <ehird> ais523: here's what i get for a synaptic search for restricted
21:56:46 <ais523> Recommends: gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly, gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly-multiverse, ttf-mscorefonts-installer, adobe-flashplugin | flashplugin-nonfree, unrar, gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad, gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad-multiverse, gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg, libavcodec-unstripped-52, gstreamer0.10-pitfdll
21:56:48 <ehird> linux-restricted-modules-BLAH
21:56:53 <AnMaster> I never had those issues since I began using source based distros. ;P
21:56:59 <ais523> ehird: you mustn't have the repo with it in, then
21:57:06 <ehird> I have all enabled
21:57:21 <AnMaster> ehird, why would nano be restricted...
21:57:38 <ais523> why would you think they are?
21:58:01 <ehird> 21:56 ehird: ais523: here's what i get for a synaptic search for restricted
21:58:02 <ais523> AnMaster: things that turned up in a search for "restricted" in package descriptions
21:58:14 <ais523> ehird: what does apt-cache search ubuntu-restricted show for you?
21:58:29 <ais523> did you do an apt-get update (or the GUI equivalent) after enabling the restricted repo?
21:58:38 <AnMaster> ehird, it ended up above "<ais523> Recommends:[...]" meaning I missed it
21:58:46 <ehird> ais523: it shows up, huh
21:58:48 <ehird> and i didn't have to eable it
21:58:49 <AnMaster> since text jumped so much while I was reading it
21:58:59 <ais523> you have /synaptic/ set to only show open source stuff
21:59:06 <ehird> I specially looked at synaptic
22:00:33 <oerjan> eable should so have been a word
22:01:17 <ehird> what's a low traffic archive
22:01:40 -!- tombom has quit (Connection timed out).
22:01:41 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom.
22:01:56 <ehird> what have we been talking about
22:01:59 <ehird> ubuntu-restricted-extras
22:02:22 <AnMaster> ehird, You mean searching in synaptic takes 33 minutes
22:02:35 <AnMaster> well considering number of packages in debian ubuntu I'm not surprised :P
22:02:42 <ehird> if only you made any sense
22:03:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well I guess if I knew what "<ehird> what's a low traffic archive" meant, what you said would have made some sense.
22:03:38 <AnMaster> I guess you mean then unpacking the archive (*.deb) after downloading it has an ETA of 33 minutes...
22:04:04 <AnMaster> ehird, so no you didn't make any sense.
22:04:26 <oerjan> in soviet russia, sense doesn't make any you
22:04:44 <AnMaster> thank you for your non-constructive comment.
22:04:55 <ais523> an apt search is only a few seconds
22:04:57 <okloduk> in soviet russia, russia soviet in.
22:05:01 <ehird> grumpy AnMaster is grumpy
22:05:03 <ehird> STOP PUNNING OERJAN
22:05:07 <ehird> YOU'RE UNCONSTRUCTIVE
22:05:13 <AnMaster> ehird, so what did you mean then.
22:05:46 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe you can explain it
22:06:26 <oerjan> YOU TWO GO SIT IN A CORNER. NO, _NOT_ THE SAME ONE.
22:06:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, good imitation of ehird
22:06:41 <ais523> AnMaster: time to download the packages from the repositories, obviously
22:06:45 <ehird> this is amusing but pathetic
22:06:53 <ais523> it would be even slower in a source distro if it was similarly loaded
22:06:57 <ais523> because binaries are normally smaller
22:06:59 <AnMaster> repository != archive in my vocabulary.
22:07:07 <AnMaster> Also doesn't ubuntu have *mirrors*?
22:07:39 <oerjan> it's all smoke and mirrors
22:07:42 <ehird> archive.ubuntu.com
22:07:55 <ehird> oerjan: thank you for your non-constructive comment.
22:08:04 <AnMaster> ais523, usually gentoo mirrors are fast. There are 3 or 4 in Sweden for example.
22:08:07 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, all of them are likely to be loaded today
22:08:09 <okloduk> oerjan: you're being a bit abconstructive imo
22:08:19 <ehird> AnMaster: BECAUSE UBUNTU MADE A NEW RELEASE
22:08:22 <ehird> SO LOADS OF PEOPLE ARE TRYING IT
22:08:27 <oerjan> okloduk: i am merely trying to defuse the situation
22:08:29 <ais523> AnMaster: because 9.04 was released today
22:08:35 <ehird> AnMaster: because we've been talking about it
22:08:39 <Deewiant> Binaries normally smaller? Not in my experience.
22:08:44 <ais523> Ubuntu releases are generally big enough to make mainstream technology news
22:08:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends. cfunge binary is smaller than cfunge source at least.
22:08:59 <ehird> ais523: he's too hardcore for such mainstream things.
22:09:01 <ais523> Deewiant: well, most actual binaries are written in C or C++
22:09:14 <ais523> most of the rest is scripting languages, which are sent as source in both binary and source distros
22:09:34 <Deewiant> Hmm, yes, I suppose in the average case it is so.
22:09:45 <AnMaster> but a stripped cfunge binary is smaller than the source
22:09:49 <ais523> well, pedantically speaking, most binaries are written in machine code
22:10:14 <AnMaster> even though some code is compiled twice (#define + include a private header, change defines and include it again)
22:10:40 <ais523> wow, #ubuntu has FloodBot1, FlootBot2, and FloodBot 3
22:10:48 <ais523> I wonder why they have three of them
22:11:01 <ais523> AnMaster: manage the ban list, it seems
22:11:07 <ehird> yay, se.archive.ubuntu.com is fast
22:11:08 <Deewiant> With full stripping ccbi is over twice the size of its source
22:11:08 <ais523> presumably according to certain rules
22:11:10 <AnMaster> ah, so not flood the channel then
22:11:20 <AnMaster> ehird, As usual Sweden wins ;P
22:11:27 <ehird> AnMaster: .fi has faster net
22:11:47 <AnMaster> ehird, the ubuntu fi mirror or in general?
22:11:50 <ais523> there's also ubottu, but it just spouts back canned advice on request
22:12:06 <AnMaster> anyway gentoo mirrors are not very often loaded since rolling releases make upgrades rather non-dramatic :D
22:12:16 <Deewiant> Even if I take into account the static size for a D executable, CCBI's source is clearly smaller than the binary.
22:12:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with or without debug inf?
22:12:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Fully stripped and optimized.
22:12:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sec *checks for cfunge*
22:12:55 <Deewiant> For C, I don't doubt that it's the other way around.
22:13:09 <Deewiant> Since C is both more verbose and smaller. :-P
22:13:23 <ais523> strange, someone just joined #ubuntu, then said an email address
22:13:53 <Deewiant> Of course, most of my Haskell stuff by far exceeds the size of its source.
22:13:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes it is. a 64-bit cfunge, with t support, tracing and 64-bit cells is 118 k stripped
22:14:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cfunge *.c and *.h is much larger
22:15:09 <ais523> ooh: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8015623.stm
22:15:25 <ais523> microsoft sold less last quater than the same time the year before
22:15:27 <Deewiant> 2.0 is currently 215K but most of the fingerprints are the exact same as in 1.0, they should be a fair bit smaller when redone
22:15:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a 32-bit cfunge without t and with 32-bit cells is 83 K stripped
22:15:47 <Deewiant> 1.0.20 binary is 588K stripped
22:15:52 <AnMaster> (the other one had exact bounds)
22:16:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm using -Os here of course
22:16:13 <Deewiant> Hmm, wonder if ldc has something like that
22:16:25 <okloduk> i wonder if any big company has ever just decided to stop at the top.
22:16:34 <Deewiant> I, of course, am using the standard binary and not one to support my conclusions in any particular way :-P
22:16:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with -O3 and 64-bit build (32-bit cells) a stripped cfunge is 224K
22:16:50 <AnMaster> which is still smaller than source
22:17:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "<Deewiant> For C, I don't doubt that it's the other way around."
22:17:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway D isn't exactly low level
22:18:06 <Deewiant> It's the lowest-level language I typically use
22:18:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I assume your build is not statically linked
22:18:32 <AnMaster> I don't support linking cfunge statically. It might work. I haven't tested it for a long time.
22:18:35 <Deewiant> No, it's dynamically linked to stuff like ncurses, c, pthreads
22:19:15 <AnMaster> cfunge is linked to libncurses.so.5, libm.so.6, librt.so.1, libc.so.6, libdl.so.2 (???), libpthread.so.0 here says ldd
22:20:11 <Deewiant> I have libgcc_s.so in addition to those
22:20:42 <AnMaster> well libgcc_s.so makes sense since you probably use exceptions and what not
22:20:47 <AnMaster> iirc it handles such stuff too
22:20:48 <ais523> maybe AnMaster didn't use gcc
22:20:53 <ais523> or maybe it's statically linked there
22:20:59 <ais523> libgcc also handles things like multiplication
22:21:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I used gcc. But libgcc_s.so isn't always needed.
22:21:02 <ais523> some of it's very low-level
22:21:13 <ais523> anything which can't be expressed in a few machine instructions goes there
22:21:25 <AnMaster> ais523, sure but all operations can be expressed with that here I suspect
22:21:40 <ais523> so if you're doing a sort of multiplication that the processor doesn't have an instruction for, it uses a wrapper in libgcc to convert the argument lengths, etc
22:21:45 <ais523> gcc-bf compiles libgcc three times
22:21:54 <ais523> and links three copies of it into the final library
22:22:02 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm pretty sure gcc very often inlines it.
22:22:10 <AnMaster> Anyway I don't do 128-bit multiplication
22:22:43 <AnMaster> I guess if I compiled with 64-bit cells and -m32 I might see it
22:22:45 <Deewiant> Oh yes, this GCC talk reminds me that ais523 was supposed to be unhappy about something in the 4.4.0 changelog
22:23:07 <Deewiant> Somebody said it, you probably weren't here then
22:23:09 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc 4.5 will drop protoize/unprotoize
22:23:17 <ais523> oh, I don't care about that
22:23:22 <AnMaster> they are marked obsolete in 4.4
22:23:27 <ais523> I was using the version of unprotoize that was distributed with bcc
22:23:42 <ais523> you don't need protoize to compile C-INTERCAL with gcc
22:23:52 <ais523> you need unprotoize to compile it with a K&R compiler, though
22:24:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why would you care about that
22:24:19 <AnMaster> everyone have used ELF for *ages*
22:24:21 <Deewiant> I'm always a bit sad to see old stuff disappear
22:24:33 <Deewiant> My kernel has support for a.out you know!
22:24:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you go maintain it I'm sure they will keep it
22:24:46 <AnMaster> also I heard plans to drop a.out in linux kernel soon too
22:25:18 <AnMaster> I expect ais523 won't like that though
22:25:36 <ais523> oh, I don't want it dropped in kernel
22:25:41 <ais523> although I'm happy for it to be a separate module
22:25:49 <ais523> I don't mind it dropped in compilers
22:25:49 -!- jix has quit ("leaving").
22:25:55 <AnMaster> why would they have to maintain what nobody use.
22:26:01 <ais523> and because some old compilers only output in a.out, and I have to be able to test them somehow
22:26:10 <AnMaster> Clearly you can run a 2.4 kernel in a VM if you need it
22:26:28 <Deewiant> Just use an a.out to ELF converter
22:26:35 <Deewiant> Write one if one doesn't exist
22:26:36 <ais523> oh, that's fine, if those exist
22:27:03 <AnMaster> well dynamic libraries are handled very differently for example
22:27:10 * ais523 wonders why apt-cache search a.out returns 1358 packages
22:31:17 <fizzie> It's a regexp search by default, and matches everything like lAyOUT?
22:32:08 <fizzie> Oh, and especially AbOUT.
22:33:34 <fizzie> Too bad that apt-cache search doesn't eat the ~X-style special-patterns used by aptitude's search.
22:39:30 <fizzie> Aptitude has things like "~sfoo" for packages in section foo.
22:49:07 <ehird> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8015623.stm
22:49:58 <ais523> I'm annoyed, I came here for the GIMP documentation, but I wanted to download it via the repos and that's unlikely to work atm
22:50:39 <ehird> ais523: use se.archive.ubuntu.com
22:50:51 <ais523> ehird: I've started on porting DNA Maze, I spent part of this morning writing a compiler from Windows resource script to sanity
22:51:03 <ehird> ais523: what graphics lib?
22:51:21 <ais523> I haven't decided yet, it'll either be SDL or Allegro
22:51:32 <ehird> please SDL, allegro is a bitch on OS X :-P
22:51:42 <ehird> but it was a bit of a pain
22:51:51 <ehird> if allegro has a lot nicer api use that I suppose
22:52:00 <ais523> I know allegro, and I don't know SDL
22:52:08 <ehird> then use allegro, although I hear SDL is simple
22:52:13 <ais523> SDL's even lower-level than allegro, I think
22:52:39 <ehird> if you want high level try pygame
22:53:00 <ais523> I don't want high-level
22:53:09 <ais523> given that I'm porting, what I really want is something with similar capabilities to GDI
22:53:16 <ehird> ais523: that would be SDL
22:53:24 <ehird> I'm pretty sure SDL is exactly at GDI's level
22:53:26 <ais523> Allegro can do that fine, to do it on SDL I might have to write a bit of graphics lib, but there shouldn't be much of a problem
22:53:39 <ais523> I thought SDI just gave you a bitmap to draw on using your own code
22:53:44 <ais523> and didn't have commands for lines, etc
22:54:02 <ehird> I -think- it has some trivial drawing functions; if not you could add those.
22:54:06 <ehird> But everything else is very GDI I believe
22:54:16 <ais523> on the other hand, DNA Maze was almost entirely blitting
22:54:44 <ais523> I was starting to get wise to the concept of portability when I ported it to Windows from DOS...
22:55:13 <fizzie> SDL (well, the 2d graphics side) is rather much oriented around the concept of a simple 2d framebuffer, and surfaces you can blit from onto it. It doesn't have the GDI vector-style plotting stuff, I don't think.
22:55:49 <ehird> ais523: are you changing any of the graphics or whatever?
22:55:51 <ais523> it might be interesting to use the pure-C bits of Allegro as the graphics library, and SDL as the display library, actually
22:55:51 <ehird> or just making a direct port
22:55:58 <ais523> ehird: just porting for the time being, I think
22:56:05 <ehird> ais523: how much drawing stuff do you actually use?
22:56:10 <ais523> just blit and text output, IIRC
22:56:23 <ehird> don't see a reason to use allegro, then
22:56:45 <ais523> I'll have to learn SDL, but that's unlikely to be a problem
22:57:14 <fizzie> Obviously there's some simple-drawing libraries on top of SDL; at least SDL_gfx and SDL_draw exist, the first one seems to be in Debian repositories too.
22:57:29 <ehird> you could just use that
22:57:35 <ehird> since most everyone with SDL has SDL_{audio,ttf,gfx,blah}
22:57:41 <ehird> you'll need SDL_ttf for the text stuff
22:58:26 <ais523> and presumably SDL_image for the graphics?
22:58:31 <ais523> I wonder what format I should store them in
22:58:42 <ais523> they're in .bmp at the moment, because I just converted them from the Windows RC file
22:58:49 <ais523> decompiling your own programs FTW!
22:58:55 <ehird> ais523: .bmp seems reasonable
22:59:01 <ehird> for things like this, I think two versions is probably best
22:59:04 <ehird> a completely-faithful port
22:59:11 <ehird> and an "integrated" evrsion
22:59:15 <ais523> I don't intend to necessarily be faithful
22:59:15 <fizzie> PNG is the other white meat, uh, I mean, reasonable bitmappy graphics format.
22:59:15 <ehird> although for the former you could use WINE
22:59:20 <ehird> does dna maze work under WINE?
22:59:41 <ais523> I checked recently and it goes haywire whenever your rotation direction or speed changes, for some reason
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23:01:12 <ais523> I'm pretty sure what's happening is just a missing Invalidate() in the original source, but that would mean being able to recompile it
23:01:17 <ehird> ubuntu installed swfdec or some other shit free flash player
23:01:22 <ehird> which renders youtube as a gray box
23:01:26 <ais523> did for me too, I just uninstalled it again
23:01:36 * ehird replaces it with Adobe'
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23:01:42 <AnMaster> <fizzie> PNG is the other white meat, uh, I mean, reasonable bitmappy graphics format. <-- other? The first being tiff I guess
23:01:52 <ehird> do read a few lines
23:02:10 <ehird> bmp is reasonable; have you read the spec or are you just performing acts of anti-MS fud
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23:02:22 <ehird> ais523: if it is, it's darn trivial regardless
23:02:23 <ehird> it's barely a format
23:02:24 <ais523> I have read the spec for bmp, at least the Microsoft version
23:02:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen enough of the file format
23:02:29 <fizzie> It is very reasonable if you have your graphics as BMP files already.
23:02:34 <ais523> it has a simple header, and the bitmap is stored upside-down
23:02:47 <ehird> AnMaster: tiff is backwards.
23:02:51 <AnMaster> starting in the wrong end of the bitmap as far as I remember
23:02:51 <ehird> although it has an option to go forwards.
23:03:05 <ehird> AnMaster: so tiff can't be reasonable is bmp is.
23:03:16 <ehird> AnMaster: nobody uses the tiff-go-forwards flag
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23:03:34 <fizzie> And certainly BMP is a format, since it supports RLE compression.
23:03:35 <ehird> ...apart from one-off hacks.
23:03:54 <ehird> wait, supposedly this is adobe flash
23:03:58 <pikhq> And it has a header and all.
23:04:11 <AnMaster> ehird, does bmp support more than 8 bits per channel
23:04:46 <AnMaster> odd, I have yet to see a program that is able to save it like that for bmp
23:04:58 <fizzie> The infalliblepedia says "relatively well documented and free of patents", so it's... at least not horribly proprietary.
23:05:28 <fizzie> Also someone has linked the word "documented" in that sentence to the page about "Documentation". *That* seems rather spurious.
23:05:34 <ais523> AnMaster: MS Paint can save it 24 bits to the pixel
23:05:38 <ehird> default format in xp
23:05:56 <AnMaster> really, I don't remember seeing that in paint. But I admit not using paint since windows 98 time
23:06:02 <AnMaster> since it is a horrible program
23:06:06 <ehird> it's only since xp.
23:06:08 <ehird> also, ms paint is great.
23:06:28 <ehird> for quick doodles and also more elaborate stuff
23:06:30 <fizzie> 24 bits to the pixel pretty much means 8 bits per channel, not more?
23:06:51 <ais523> bmp doesn't have an alpha channel
23:06:54 <AnMaster> ehird, inkscape is way more useful. Or Illustrator if you prefer costly software.
23:07:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Because raster editors are so like vector editors.
23:07:19 <ehird> Watch me show extreme ignorance of images!
23:07:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, I was meaning 16 bits per channel in fact.
23:07:29 <fizzie> Yes, that's what I thought you meant.
23:07:39 <ais523> I installed kolourpaint here, because none of the default Ubuntu paint programs fill the same niche as MS Paint, but Kolourpaint does
23:07:51 <AnMaster> ehird, raster images: gimp, photoshop
23:08:04 <AnMaster> there is no other use for raster images than photos or scanned drawings
23:08:04 <ehird> gimp is utterly useless for the kind of things mspaint is good at
23:08:07 <fizzie> Certainly you can write "48" as the bits-per-pixel value in the BMP header; I find it unlikely that anything's going to decode it right, though.
23:08:13 <AnMaster> ehird, mspaint isn't good at anything
23:08:21 <ehird> AnMaster: yay, begging the question
23:08:26 <ehird> a wonderful fallacy
23:08:53 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't even support smooth antialised lines with the pen or such
23:09:11 <AnMaster> for anything that is worth drawing
23:09:15 <ehird> doodles are worthless unless accompanied by lens flare, other filters, and antialiased pens
23:09:19 <ehird> ooh, inherent worth of drawing!
23:09:24 <ehird> just like you shouldn't program in esolangs
23:09:32 <ehird> as they're not worth programming in
23:09:32 <fizzie> There is the whole genre of pixel art; I do think that has the right to exist.
23:09:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I agree with that. But it tends to be far away from all stuff I have seen done in ms paint
23:09:59 <fizzie> Although I also think there are more pixel-art-optimized programs than mspaint. Though mspaint has the availability thing going for it.
23:10:02 <ehird> fizzie: probably akin to his taste in music. was pixel art invented in the 1900s or later?
23:10:18 <ehird> AnMaster: a large portion of pixel artists use ms paint.
23:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, why not read my last line before acting stupid
23:10:34 <ehird> because I started typing before you sent it, dolt.
23:10:56 <AnMaster> ehird, it was over 10 seconds in between. I guess you are lagged.
23:11:05 <ehird> no, I guess you're lagged
23:11:09 <ehird> as I've never been significantly lagged before
23:11:10 <AnMaster> ehird, and are you looking at keyboard or screen when typing.
23:11:13 <ehird> and you've been lagged for 30+ seconds.
23:11:22 <fizzie> I think there was some open-source Deluxe Paint port, too; one would think that'd be popular, given the amazing popularity of the original. Though maybe it suckeded.
23:11:56 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I would assume you to be smart enough to use backspace when you see the line you are typing is no longer relevant.
23:12:20 <ehird> this would be more worthwhile if you used arguments instead of resorting to semantic pedantry on the messages themselves
23:12:25 <AnMaster> ehird, ah that is your response when you can't think of any witty reply
23:12:27 <ehird> where more = a miniscule amount greater
23:12:38 <ehird> god you're such an irritating shit
23:13:31 <AnMaster> ehird, talking about yourself in second person again I see. Anyway mspaint is indeed useless. There are way better programs for pixel art. There are way better programs for "quick doodles", there are way better programs for image editing.
23:13:39 <AnMaster> And it can't do more than 8 bits per channel.
23:13:45 <lament> ehird: been eating spicy food?
23:13:55 <AnMaster> 24 bits per pixel is not more than 8 per channel.
23:14:26 <ehird> AnMaster: you admitted that to being a mistake
23:14:32 <ehird> you can't then use it as a point of argument
23:14:37 <ehird> that's simply dishonest and stupid
23:15:07 <AnMaster> I accepted I might have been wrong, but it seems I was right.
23:15:11 <ehird> 23:05 ais523: AnMaster: MS Paint can save it 24 bits to the pixel
23:15:11 <ehird> 23:05 AnMaster: really, I don't remember seeing that in paint. But I admit not using paint since windows 98 time
23:15:13 <ehird> 23:06 fizzie: 24 bits to the pixel pretty much means 8 bits per channel, not more?
23:15:15 <ehird> 23:07 AnMaster: fizzie, hm right
23:15:17 <ehird> 23:07 AnMaster: fizzie, I was meaning 16 bits per channel in fact.
23:15:19 <ehird> you admitted that you meant something else
23:15:22 <ehird> you can't therefore say you meant it as that all along
23:15:29 <ehird> no? that was a verbatim quote
23:15:31 <ais523> who saves any sort of bitmap 16 bits to the channel?
23:15:39 <AnMaster> ais523, my camera does, to tiff
23:16:24 <AnMaster> ais523, though I think the raw file format actually uses 12 bits per channel, but tiff can't handle that.
23:16:37 <AnMaster> so when selecting tiff it rounds it up to 16
23:16:53 <ais523> does it look any different than 8 to the channel?
23:17:13 <fizzie> ais523: It lets you do exposure-correction and things like that better.
23:17:54 <ais523> ah, I see; it's just the same for an image when humans view it, but if there's something wrong with the image it's easier to correct
23:17:57 <AnMaster> ais523, btw only the very last version of gimp is able to handle more than 8 per channel. now that it has started using that http://www.gegl.org/ thing
23:18:19 <AnMaster> the last version still doesn't handle it. but it soon will
23:19:30 <AnMaster> ais523, depending on what gamut you are using 8 bits may be too few
23:19:43 <AnMaster> with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Wide_Gamut_RGB_color_space for example
23:20:00 <AnMaster> I use non-wide Adobe RGB most of the time
23:20:35 <AnMaster> which is still better than sRGB
23:20:48 <AnMaster> ais523, so yes there are lots of reasons for more than 8 bits per channel
23:22:11 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, does bmp support more than 8 bits per channel
23:22:11 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: MS Paint can save it 24 bits to the pixel
23:22:11 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 24 bits per pixel is not more than 8 per channel.
23:22:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: you admitted that to being a mistake
23:22:15 <AnMaster> <ehird> 23:07 AnMaster: fizzie, I was meaning 16 bits per channel in fact.
23:22:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> you admitted that you meant something else
23:22:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> you can't therefore say you meant it as that all along
23:22:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> no? that was a verbatim quote
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23:22:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, I was *CLARIFYING*
23:22:25 <ehird> AnMaster: fuck you, shitflooder
23:22:27 <AnMaster> I'm not sure how ehird's logic worked there
23:22:29 <AnMaster> I said "more than 8 bits per channel" all along
23:22:32 <fizzie> The raw formats tend to be (or at least some are; certainly those which are really a raw dump of the sensor contents) more complicated than just "array of pixels, with equal amounts of bits per each RGB channel", anyway, since the sensor isn't like that; quite often there's in each 2x2 square one blue, one red and two green pixels. (And some have a fourth color filter there in place of the second green.)
23:22:48 <AnMaster> I was confused by ais and ehird yes
23:23:06 <AnMaster> but I said "more than 8 bits per channel" all along
23:23:13 <AnMaster> and that is what the logs will prove
23:23:25 <AnMaster> I just wish ehird could admit being wrong for once.
23:24:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I'm well aware. I usually end up with raw image -> ufraw (adjust stuff) -> tiff (adobe rgb) -> gimp (here you lose the extra info currently)
23:25:07 * AnMaster hopes gimp will properly support color management some day
23:25:46 <AnMaster> in fact I might go mac just because of that. ColorSync + photoshop. For such stuff macs currently win by a wide margin.
23:25:57 <AnMaster> though gimp is better at some stuff certainly.
23:28:46 <AnMaster> ais523, fizzie: photoshop supports 32 bits per channel btw.
23:32:33 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it also does floating-point color channels.
23:33:35 <fizzie> The HDR-specific formats tend to do that.
23:35:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, and lots of non-standard colour spaces
23:37:15 <AnMaster> though I don't care a lot for that
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00:35:38 <oerjan> SortaRoundaboutButItMightGetThereEventuallyIfYouArePatientNet.
00:35:47 <ehird> A FUNCTION OVER 1000 LINES
00:38:45 * kerlo looks at it, and finds it not all that useful for building stuff on top of.
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00:39:43 <ehird> ais523: can you slap GregorR? He wrote a function that's over 1000 lines long.
00:40:11 <ais523> that's perfectly reasonable in asm, for instance
00:40:26 <ehird> It's a huge, gigantic, multi-thousand line spaghetti interpreter loop.
00:41:01 <ais523> I think the C version of ADVENT has functions that long, but then it /was/ machine-translated from the Fortran
00:41:48 <GregorR> A) It's not spaghetti code, it's many independent sub-functions each separately labeled and not inter-operating, part of a threaded interpreter loop.
00:42:08 <kerlo> Name of a safe Haskell function: callCC
00:42:14 <GregorR> B) The only difference between having it as it is and having it in separate functions is sed s/label(.*);/} void \1() {/
00:42:21 <kerlo> Name of an unsafe Haskell function: unsafeImitationSchemeStyleCallWithCurrentContinuation
00:42:58 <oerjan> probably because callCC is in a ContMonad
00:43:09 <kerlo> But I'm not able to figure out what you guys are talking about.
00:43:59 <ehird> kerlo is sounding like an ai
00:44:11 <oerjan> 01:43 =oerjan> @type callCC
00:44:11 <oerjan> 01:43 =lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (MonadCont m) => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
00:44:52 <kerlo> Eight o's, seven k's.
00:45:15 <oerjan> it thus fulfils the oko invariant
00:48:24 <okloduk> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:49:11 <kerlo> Anyway, unsafe...Continuation looked something like this:
00:50:56 <ais523> grrr, Dichotomy II is nasty
00:51:03 <ais523> it's one of my new Enigma levels, but it only works on 1.1
00:51:15 <ais523> it would have been rather complex to write correctly in the old API
00:51:19 <ais523> the new one is so much better
00:52:12 <kerlo> data Void; void :: Void -> a; void = unsafeCoerce; unsafeRemoveNotNot :: ((a -> Void) -> Void) -> a; unsafeRemoveNotNot x = void (x unsafeCoerce)
00:53:01 <oerjan> sweet baby jesus, or something
00:54:24 <kerlo> And then unsafe...Continuation was just a proof of Peirce's law using double negation elimination.
00:54:36 <kerlo> It didn't actually behave like call-with-current-continuation at all.
00:55:18 <oerjan> it hardly could, given that that unsafeRemoveNotNot does not produce a real a at all...
00:55:41 <ais523> that's quite a function
00:55:47 <ais523> sort of the opposite of Unlambda's !
00:59:31 <ais523> oh dear, geocities has been finally killed by yahoo
00:59:40 <ais523> that's half the esolang information in existance down the drain...
01:00:05 <ehird> just no new registrations
01:00:24 <kerlo> It produces a real a if its input is safe. I think.
01:00:30 <ehird> ais523: can you seriously imagining them deleting all that?
01:00:32 <ehird> they'd be murdered!
01:00:40 <ehird> geocities is _gigantic_
01:00:44 <ais523> I can imagine it, and how would they be murdered?
01:01:05 <ehird> because it still hosts very popular sites, huge amounts of nostalgia, and is generally huge?
01:01:10 <kerlo> Hey, I think i just realized why this channel makes no sense.
01:01:19 <ehird> kerlo: you're ignoring me?
01:01:42 <oerjan> kerlo: is it because of the little butterflies?
01:02:38 * oerjan frolicks in the meta-ambiguity
01:02:38 <kerlo> It's because I'm selectively deaf.
01:03:43 <kerlo> I'm a sort of selectively deaf in person, too.
01:04:08 <oerjan> i hear that's a common trait in teenagers
01:04:33 <ehird> http://www.sitesnoopy.com/ /me shiver
01:06:54 * oerjan checks that he is completely unignorant
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01:32:06 * kerlo ponders a peer-to-peer system
01:35:36 * oerjan peers into a pond-to-pond system
01:37:54 <kerlo> Protocol: Alice sends to Bob a public key in plaintext. Bob sends to Alice a shared key encrypted with the public key. Alice sends to Bob a recipient ID, a request ID, and any extra data, encrypted with the shared key. Bob sends to Alice the recipient ID and request ID again along with a response, all encrypted with the shared key.
01:37:59 <kerlo> And all this is signed.
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01:39:08 <kerlo> If Bob has the recipient ID and request ID cached, the response can be the cached response; otherwise, he asks someone else to handle the request.
01:40:43 <kerlo> Alternatively, if he has the private key associated with the recipient ID, he can make up a response and send that.
01:42:29 <oerjan> Mallory of course intercepts the initial public key and substitutes her own.
01:42:49 <kerlo> Mallory can't sign the initial public key.
01:43:11 <ais523> Mallory's female, now?
01:43:33 <pikhq> I thought the usual person was Eve, anyways.
01:43:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_and_Bob
01:43:44 <ais523> eve is specifically an evesdropper
01:43:50 <ais523> mallory's more devious than that
01:44:47 <kerlo> Eve looks at the public key and signature, sees that she knows how to decode Alice's signatures, and verifies that Alice is up to something.
01:46:39 <kerlo> So, let's try that again.
01:46:51 <Slereah_> Alice and Bob like to zoom around spaceships in relativity
01:47:11 <kerlo> Alice sends Bob a shared key, encrypted and signed. Alice sends Bob the stuff, Bob sends Alice the resulting stuff.
01:47:43 <kerlo> And hey, it's a pretty simple profile. "Alice sent a bunch of random-looking data to Bob, then Bob sent a bunch of random-looking data back. I wonder if they're up to something."
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02:12:05 <fungot> oklopol: " we want to, when fnord is such a disgusting thing to break down now and--' sacharissa began. and then on ankh itself, the little cherub," she repeated. " part of my duty, that's what sorts out the men from the path of the fleet, an area of sea was mill-pond calm. from behind them.
02:12:21 <oklopol> reality check, youtube won't open
02:12:49 <oklopol> maybe that's some local fungot.
02:12:50 <fungot> oklopol: " you're certain you've got no whoosh left in them fingers of yours?' said the count, pouring a tarry brown liquid into the mug. ' i don't quite see where we stayed, it was putting on an incredibly good act.
02:13:06 <ais523> oklopol: I'm not here really
02:13:10 <fungot> oerjan: carrot proudly lifted it out of the ground, far away. i was expecting... anyway...
02:13:12 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
02:13:17 <kerlo> Recreating the tone with none of the sense.
02:13:56 <oklopol> i just wanted to hear a sleepy tune and now i'm waking up more and more trying to get internet to exist :<
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02:16:17 <fungot> oklopol: " that's one lad who won't know what day it is. is...
02:20:46 <oerjan> fungot: you're not much for upper-case, i see
02:20:46 <fungot> oerjan: then he remembered his responsibilities. he went on, taking advantage of the long table.
02:22:08 <ais523> *** Channel modes: topic protection, no messages from outside, no colors allowed, limited to 263 users
02:22:13 * ais523 wonders why that exact limit
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06:40:02 <Esoteric> i like the look of this channel
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06:53:04 <pikhq> Puntastic, though.
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10:02:37 <fizzie> Heh, this conference thing takes (mostly) place on Mon-Wed, June 22-24... but in the detailed program, the presentations are marked to be on "Monday, June 22", "Tuesday, June 23" and "Thursday, June 24". Something's not quite correct here.
10:03:14 <fizzie> Maybe IN SOVIET RUSSIA a Thursday comes after Tuesday you.
10:04:01 <fizzie> (It's in St. Petersburg.)
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13:45:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lifthrasiir, hi there.
13:46:22 <AnMaster> what is the correct behaviour for FIXP when given out of range parameters. Such as -1 to the Q (sqrt)
13:46:58 <AnMaster> cfunge and rc/funge pushes NaN cast to int. CCBI and efunge pushes 0. PyFunge reflects.
13:47:26 <AnMaster> as far as I understand the very non-detailed spec.
13:47:39 <Deewiant> The spec is 'Q(a -- sqrt(a))Square root'
13:47:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same applies to B (acos) btw.
13:48:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mycology doesn't test those two (found with coverage analysis of efunge, since I have to fake NaN due to erlang throwing exceptions on translating floating point nan/inf).
13:49:18 <AnMaster> was trying to write two things at once
13:49:22 <okloduk> why would it test something that isn't specced
13:49:34 <okloduk> or did you just mean the functions in general
13:49:42 <Deewiant> So that it can tell the implementer that hey, this thing isn't specced, are you sure this behaviour is what you want
13:50:12 <Deewiant> And often, unspecced input has meant that the interpreter crashes, which isn't supposed to happen
13:50:31 <okloduk> what's supposed to happen, reflect?
13:51:16 <Deewiant> Either reflect, do the sensible-but-not-specified thing, or go with "garbage in, garbage out".
13:51:20 <okloduk> i mean if anything may happen, testing is pretty much impossible
13:51:30 <Deewiant> Sure, which is why it doesn't /test/ it per se
13:51:33 <okloduk> if it's truly unspecced, then it's not safe to test it.
13:51:40 <Deewiant> It just does something and outputs what the result was
13:52:01 <Deewiant> "UNDEF: giving foo the input bar resulted in the output baz"
13:52:10 <AnMaster> as long as it doesn't crash or cause memory corruption, locks up in infinite loop or some other "really bad thing" I'm happy.
13:52:14 <okloduk> but isn't it legal to crash for unspecced stuff?
13:52:30 <Deewiant> Strictly speaking, I suppose, yes.
13:52:38 <AnMaster> well maybe it is, but I was writing this test for cfunge/efunge
13:52:39 <Deewiant> I'm just opinionated that way. :-P
13:52:41 <okloduk> right, that's what i thought
13:52:45 <AnMaster> and I usually try it on other interpreters too
13:53:31 <okloduk> Deewiant: if it's not actually unspecced, but somewhat specced, redefine unspecced, don't say that's a stupid definition so we'll go by what's more intuitive here.
13:53:43 <AnMaster> but for cfunge and efunge it is a requirement to not crash, with the possible exception of OOM (which I still try to not crash on but I don't promise anything).
13:54:20 <okloduk> Deewiant: err, that unspecced should be interpreted strictly, as should everything else.
13:54:26 <AnMaster> or stuff out of my control (failing hardware for example, or buggy OS)
13:54:36 <Deewiant> Did I interpret it non-strictly somewhere?
13:54:50 <okloduk> 15:52β¦ Deewiant: I'm just opinionated that way. :-P <<< maybe i misunderstood this
13:55:22 <Deewiant> okloduk: That's referring to the fact that Mycology takes the attitude that the interp shouldn't crash
13:55:47 <Deewiant> Or I do, when tallying results, anyway. :-P
13:56:03 <Deewiant> I /have/ removed one test from Mycology due to rethinking my position and allowing it to be an infinite loop.
13:56:40 <okloduk> Deewiant: right, and i'm saying you shouldn't do that. but difference of opinion ofc, and you're much more of an authority than me.
14:02:14 <Deewiant> My attitude is based on the fact that the spec says that unimplemented instructions should cause a reflection
14:02:27 <Deewiant> I'm just extending that to unimplemented input, essentially
14:02:54 <Deewiant> Reflection is the generic way of reporting an error in funge
14:03:11 <Deewiant> I think the interpreter crashing is like any compiler crashing on malformed code
14:03:31 <Deewiant> okloduk: I.e. invalid input which isn't handled in any way to avoid crashing.
14:03:42 <Deewiant> It's "unimplemented" in that sense.
14:04:17 <okloduk> right unimplemented in the interp
14:04:35 <okloduk> maybe "implemented" might have hinted it was about the implementation.
14:05:52 <okloduk> Deewiant: i guess in practise i'd punch my computer in the face if a compiler actually handled unspecced stuff in a rigorously unspecced fashion.
14:06:38 <Deewiant> In practice, specs don't matter ;-P
14:07:06 <okloduk> and i guess i also agree reflection is the canonical way to do errors, and should be expected.
14:07:23 <okloduk> well i'm sure i'm still right about something.
14:08:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you handle OOM in stack stack wrong according to spec
14:08:35 <AnMaster> $ ../other/ccbi/ccbi_linux/ccbi.64 stack-stack-over.b98
14:08:35 <AnMaster> Exited due to an error: Memory allocation failed at :0 (tango.core.Exception.OutOfMemoryException)
14:09:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm fixing it in cfunge atm :P
14:10:40 <Deewiant> It's probably allocating the stack successfully
14:10:47 <Deewiant> But then fails at the temporary buffer for copying
14:11:07 <Deewiant> Because I don't break the stack abstraction!
14:11:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I had to do break it even more to fix this in cfunge btw.
14:11:37 <Deewiant> Alternatively, it could fail at pushing the offset afterwards.
14:11:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since I used same "ensure stack has enough space" as for normal string pushing
14:11:54 <Deewiant> But in any case, it did not fail at allocating a stack.
14:12:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have a lot of ram then.
14:12:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since you have to ensure you have enough space to push all those values on the stack.
14:12:58 <AnMaster> anyway it is a bug in ccbi considering how the spec reads.
14:13:04 <Deewiant> Ah yes, it might fail in the pushing stage as well.
14:13:23 <AnMaster> "{ may act like r if no more memory is available for another stack. } acts like r if a stack-stack underflow would otherwise occur (i.e. when there is only one stack on the stack-stack.)"
14:13:26 <Deewiant> Quoth the spec: "{ may act like r if no more memory is available for another stack."
14:13:46 <Deewiant> Firstly, memory was available for another stack.
14:13:54 <Deewiant> Just not for the cells to copy there.
14:14:09 <AnMaster> the first point didn't make sense
14:14:19 <AnMaster> wouldn't the space needed be included in the new stack.
14:14:22 <Deewiant> It doesn't specify what constitutes "another stack".
14:14:43 <Deewiant> I agree that I'm being a bit anal about this but strictly speaking I'm right.
14:15:17 <fizzie> { is even specified so that the "another stack" is allocated *before* those blocks are copied; there's nothing about reserving space in the new stack.
14:15:19 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: sorry, i had a nap a while. i also think it is undefined.
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14:20:46 <lifthrasiir> and i'm not sure that memory allocation failure should reflect or gracefully exit
14:21:02 <AnMaster> so lets see what ccbi does on k{
14:22:19 <okloduk> Oletetaan, ettÀ seuraavat kaksi vÀittÀmÀÀ ovat totta:
14:22:20 <okloduk> Kaikki punatukkaiset miehet ovat pahansisuisia.
14:22:20 <okloduk> Aatu on punatukkainen mies.
14:22:37 <fizzie> You mean Aatu's mean-spirited?!
14:22:56 <okloduk> that's an internet iq test thingie
14:23:09 <okloduk> (i usually fill every pop-up type thing that pops up)
14:23:17 <okloduk> and it used to be everywhere
14:23:24 <okloduk> but now considerably less so
14:23:47 <okloduk> assume the following two things are truw
14:23:58 <okloduk> - all readheads are ill-tempered (?)
14:24:02 <fizzie> Claim, statement. Not just "thing".
14:24:07 <fizzie> And I would use mean-spirited there.
14:24:24 <fizzie> All read-aheads are mean-spirited.
14:24:44 <okloduk> - Not deduceable from these two statements
14:25:47 <Deewiant> This test is complete crap :-D
14:25:49 <fizzie> They're obviously testing whether you are capable of mentally adding the obvious missing actual question part there.
14:26:35 <okloduk> well actually i suck at those reorder characters tests, thay are my weak spot, took like 30 seconds to get that one
14:27:00 <okloduk> well maybe it's actually non-trivial, but still, i do suck at it
14:28:00 <Deewiant> Meh, you don't get a result without giving them a phone number
14:28:11 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, btw at that { OOM I get a traceback from pyfunge.
14:28:53 <Deewiant> Or maybe it's a real one and somebody else's :-/
14:29:06 <Deewiant> Aw, they still don't give a result
14:29:17 <lifthrasiir> PyFunge doesn't check for it yet, but i should add some message for it in 0.5
14:29:21 <okloduk> 1.50 euros per received message
14:29:27 <AnMaster> odd, pyfunge needs a high ulimit for virtual memory to be able to run
14:29:36 <okloduk> does that actually mean you can just charge anyone whose number you know?
14:29:36 <AnMaster> and I'm not going to test this without ulimit
14:29:50 <Deewiant> okloduk: No, because you need to send them a message
14:29:57 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, anyway I get a memory error too on "PXIF"4(\k{
14:30:04 <AnMaster> where it won't push anything after first
14:30:05 <Deewiant> So first you give them your number and then you send a message from that number so it knows what result to give you
14:30:54 <fizzie> Whaaat, it asks a phone number? That was the stupidity.
14:31:08 <okloduk> that's the beauty of pop-up stuff
14:36:11 <AnMaster> I wonder why I found a program called "test.b98" with this in it:
14:36:13 <AnMaster> fffff****kfff fffff****{ fffff****{ fffff****{ fffff****{ fffff****{ fffff****} fffff****} fffff****} fffff****} fffff****} n fffff****{ @
14:37:14 <AnMaster> even rcfunge1 works just fine on it seems useless.
14:38:04 <AnMaster> though pyfunge is rather slow on it.
14:39:26 <AnMaster> cfunge, rcfunge1, rcfunge2, ccbi, pyfunge (fastest first)
14:39:44 <lifthrasiir> hmm, is there any difference between that test with ulimit and without ulimit?
14:40:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that last one? no, it isn't even related to it.
14:40:06 <AnMaster> it doesn't ever hit any limit on here.
14:40:58 <AnMaster> gives memory error in both cases
14:41:18 <AnMaster> I don't plan to test without ulimit
14:41:41 <AnMaster> it is allocating a tiny amount each time
14:41:58 <AnMaster> so malloc() won't return NULL right away, like it does for the first one.
14:42:38 <lifthrasiir> well they are as i expected. i thought you see some difference in it with/without ulimit... :p
14:44:25 <AnMaster> cfunge needs 23.5 MB (64-bit binary, 32-bit cells, concurrent) to even get as far as running. CCBI (64 bit binary) needs 27 MB. pyfunge needs 40 MB. That is for "virtual memory" (ulimit -v), the actual data used is much less, the large number is due to mmap() of various *.so at start up. A lot more of them for pyfunge
14:45:05 <AnMaster> I suspect the value will be rather high for efunge too. But I haven't tried yet
14:45:44 <Deewiant> Vmem doesn't mean much, does it?
14:45:48 <lifthrasiir> python itself takes much memory for numbers, since it stores integer as an object (~20 bytes in IA-32 i think) as well
14:45:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does restrict total memory usage, including any mmap()ed stuff.
14:46:14 <AnMaster> as well as heap allocations (and stack too I'm pretty sure)
14:46:29 <Deewiant> Still doesn't mean much in practice ;-P
14:46:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it means I won't get hit by the horrible OOM killer.
14:47:14 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: then it will use much memory than IA-32, but i cannot recall the exact number
14:47:18 <AnMaster> ok I invoke the "may" bit for efunge
14:47:22 <AnMaster> Crash dump was written to: erl_crash.dump
14:47:22 <AnMaster> eheap_alloc: Cannot allocate 4113832 bytes of memory (of type "heap").
14:47:29 <AnMaster> and I can't actually catch that
14:48:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um, modules coded in C are supported by erlang, but they all talk over a stream-like "port"
14:48:40 <AnMaster> so it would be hard to use the allocated chunk inside erlang.
14:51:02 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: by the way what version of pyfunge you are testing against? i just released pyfunge 0.5-rc2 but i wonder if someone uses hg snapshot...
14:51:15 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, hg from some days ago.
14:52:28 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, btw a few days ago when I did that I couldn't get it to work, it was complaining about "pyfunge being a directory" or something like that iirc.
14:52:39 <AnMaster> I ended up checking it out from scratch.
14:52:48 <Deewiant> Yeah, lifthrasiir evilly replaced the old pyfunge-directory with a pyfunge-file
14:53:07 <AnMaster> oh right and since python creates those *.pyc ...
14:53:25 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: that occurred before rc1, so that's fine </evil>
14:54:09 <AnMaster> I have done stuff like that with bzr without issues. As long as there are no unversioned files in the directory being replaced it should work.
14:54:19 <AnMaster> even with remove and add being done in same revision.
14:54:35 <lifthrasiir> i haven't met such case yet, but if that's a problem you can hg up -r 0000 && hg up (perhaps).
14:54:46 <Deewiant> Given that there likely were *.pyc, that might be the reason
14:54:52 <Deewiant> I just removed the directory :-P
14:55:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I tried that but then hg up first recreated the directory and then complained again.
14:55:30 <AnMaster> which is when I gave up and checked out a clean copy
14:55:42 <Deewiant> Then maybe I did something else, can't remember
14:58:48 <AnMaster> I think efunge is the most "enterprisy" funge-98 interpreter. Any other interpreter with a supervisor that can restart some of the subsystems if they should crash? (Logging an error of course.) Input handling subsystem for example.
14:58:58 <AnMaster> I'm not sure "enterprisy" is a good or bad thing here...
15:02:48 <fizzie> I'll be certain to consider the efunge platform in my next enterprise-grade Funge-98 project, whatever that may be.
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15:08:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't support a lot of fingerprints yet though.
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15:41:34 <fizzie> fungot: Feeling all right there?
15:41:34 <fungot> fizzie: to snarf, with minimal if any other, saner members. it is suggestive that there are four distinct boolean-valued functions of one of a glass tty, having the reply bit set" and " drink me" and now nearly obsolete even there, and
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16:32:22 <fizzie> That was passing strange; when waking up from suspend-to-ram, one of my hard drives refused to start. Rebooting made it operational again. Though now it needs to resync the raid thing.
16:33:46 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
16:34:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, for how long has it had that style
16:34:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: Since the "just a moment" restart up there.
16:34:27 <fungot> AnMaster: services a purpose ( similar to several that arise in code that would do this sort of trapdoor, so much live usages in themselves as hackers, creating a snowball effect.
16:34:31 <fizzie> Although it is a bit unfun.
16:34:46 <fungot> AnMaster: camel book, the term may be due to
16:35:04 <fizzie> Surprisingly the Culture books produced reasonably funny-sounding output; but I already have so many "normal authors" there.
16:35:37 <AnMaster> culture books... You mean like lovecraft or..
16:36:29 <Deewiant> Who has written many novels about "the Culture"
16:36:43 <AnMaster> oh I thought he meant like "books considered classical culture thingy"
16:38:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you have any graph over which style is most popular
16:38:35 <fizzie> No; I guess I should have a voting system so you could give feedback after each comment.
16:38:48 <AnMaster> I don't know if "time it is turned on during" or "lines said in style" would be most interesting
16:38:53 <fizzie> For the Culture style I dumped in Consider Phlebas, The Player of Games, The State of the Art (although that's not all culture), Use of Weapons, Against a Dark Background (which also is very non-Culturey), Excession and Look to Windward. It was nice, but I didn't bother adding it to the bot.
16:39:09 <fizzie> It's hard to notice style-changes, since I sometimes do ^style in a query.
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16:39:54 <AnMaster> as for voting, I don't think it would work. We are too lazy for it in this channel.
16:40:25 <fizzie> Just "yes" in general?
16:40:44 <fizzie> You're quite a yes-man.
16:42:09 <AnMaster> okloduk, do you plan to say no ever?
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16:44:31 <ehird> fizzie: dump jargon
16:44:34 <ehird> I want the Hacker's Dictionary
16:44:39 <ehird> As It Should Be, With ITS Jargon Galore.
16:46:15 <Deewiant> The Devil's Dictionary might be amusing.
16:47:23 <ehird> fizzie: UNIX-HATERS, please.
16:47:37 <ehird> Either an archive of the list or the book.
16:48:40 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection timed out).
16:49:49 <ehird> In 1999 Syse Data was converted to a limited liability company, and has since been trading under the name Syse Data AS[1]. As the names are so similar, searches for our company in the official Norwegian registry of just-about-anything (BrΓΈnnΓΈysundregistrene) often resulted in potential customers looking up the wrong company. To prevent this confusion we recently changed the name of the old (non-LLC) company, and figured we'd use the opportunity for som
16:49:51 <ehird> e harmless - or so we thought - fun.
16:49:53 <ehird> The old company was renamed to:
16:49:55 <ehird> ';UPDATE TAXRATE SET RATE = 0 WHERE NAME = 'EDVIN SYSE'
16:49:57 <ehird> The name is a reference to an old XKCD-strip:
16:49:59 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/327/
16:50:01 <ehird> The fun quickly turned out not to be as harmless as we thought, and it created quite the buzz around the Internet:
16:50:04 <ehird> http://www.google.no/search?q=edvin+taxrate
16:50:06 <ehird> This in turn created enough traffic at BrΓΈnnΓΈysundregistrene for them to request that we change the name. We apologise for the inconvenience this has caused for BrΓΈnnΓΈysundregistrene.
16:50:09 <ehird> https://www.sysedata.no/nyheter/edvin-tables#english
16:55:02 <fizzie> ehird: For perversity's sake, I uploaded that unix-haters mailing list archive language model over the current .jargon files in fungot; so it's there now as style "jargon" with a very misleading description.
16:55:02 <fungot> fizzie: jackie promes apple computer alliance will work the first word, there *is* something worse!!! workstations that do offer no suggested remedy.
16:55:13 <fungot> ehird: just to help you if i wrote the line setenv editor `which emacs`, ttys and processes that " /net/ mc/ u/fubar that adds to the point of view or another.
16:55:18 <fungot> ehird: firstly, there's this problem is that i don't see anything which looked like assembly instructions for a bad feeling about this being standard unix bug. this is what it was looking at trees.
17:06:31 <AnMaster> wow, over 700 MB of trace data from running efunge:start("mycology.b98") under fprof.
17:07:33 * AnMaster waits while fprof is processing this huge file.
17:07:59 * ehird works on naive allocator for memory pool
17:19:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, can we get the usual jargon file back.
17:19:17 <ehird> no, the jargon file is shit.
17:19:25 <AnMaster> well, at least rename this one
17:19:56 <AnMaster> this one isn't very funny as a language model either.
17:20:04 <fungot> ehird: build a new, improved vacation program that generates names for future backward compat. currently 0 1215: ( files " machines/ mips/ decls")
17:20:10 <ehird> "build a new, improved vacation program that generates names for future backward compat"
17:20:14 <ehird> fungot: be witty again
17:20:15 <fungot> ehird: i cannot save the new one-, followed by the source information into the shell, type " ls" and i sometimes get them confused for some flaming:
17:20:23 <ehird> "i cannot save the new one-, followed by the source information into the shell"
17:21:34 <ehird> AnMaster: aren't you the one who always says that humour is subjective therefore if someone considers something funny it is
17:21:38 <okloduk> haha, fungot say more i'm dying of laughter
17:21:38 <fungot> okloduk: mtmp mo 3; ytmp yr; long mo; long da; long ctmp; long dtmp; long mtmp; long ytmp; long result1; long result2; long result3; was at recently...
17:21:41 <ehird> or, right, does it only apply to you.
17:21:44 <fungot> ehird: computron server ( sunos 4.1) ready. name ( magna:pd):
17:21:50 <fungot> ehird: w) stark white pages ( name lookup) service, they get panned for it.
17:21:51 <okloduk> fungot: i get it they're variables right :D
17:21:52 <fungot> okloduk: on a usenix talk they gave on the
17:21:55 <fungot> ehird: this would have taken to removing people from mailing lists, etc...
17:22:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to have convinced me of the opposite.
17:25:51 <pikhq> ehird, what about the Jargon File, before ESR touched it?
17:26:10 <ehird> pikhq: It was called the Hacker's Dictionary.
17:26:20 <pikhq> When published, yes.
17:26:21 <ehird> Which I requested.
17:26:33 <ehird> pikhq: Well, you could call it jargon.txt, I suppose.
17:27:00 <pikhq> Or "the Jargon file", as it was sometimes called.
17:27:36 <pikhq> But, yeah. Hacker's Dictionary, please. Along with UNIX-HATERS.
17:27:42 <ehird> pikhq: We have UNIX-HATERS.
17:27:44 <ehird> fungot: Hate unix.
17:27:45 <fungot> ehird: of course you're logged in as him, and
17:27:50 <pikhq> What I'm saying is keep it.
17:27:56 <ehird> We could have hdict and uhaters.
17:28:22 <pikhq> Ah, UNIX-HATERS... Old-school UNIX really was shitty then.
17:29:19 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, the same criticisms still apply to a degree.
17:29:25 <ehird> Lisp Machines _are_ a much better model...
17:30:30 <pikhq> Modern-day UNIX doesn't have all the same flaws, and some of the ones it has are becoming irrelevant.
17:31:37 <ehird> It's still a hack. :)
17:32:09 <pikhq> It's at least a hack that works well.
17:32:27 <pikhq> Which makes it quite different from the *other* major OS out there. ;)
17:34:04 <ehird> pikhq: Psst... plan 9... Loper... they exist :). Well, one exists.
17:34:11 <ehird> [[CANONICAL adj. The usual or standard state or manner of something. A true story: One Bob Sjoberg, new at the MIT AI Lab, expressed some annoyance at the use of jargon. Over his loud objections, we made a point of using jargon as much as possible in his presence, and eventually it began to sink in. Finally, in one conversation, he used the word "canonical" in jargon-like fashion without thinking. Steele: "Aha! We've finally got you talking jargon too!"
17:34:13 <ehird> Stallman: "What did he say?" Steele: "He just used `canonical' in the canonical way." ]]
17:34:15 <ehird> I want this framed
17:37:33 <pikhq> There's definitely better OSes out there.
17:37:39 <pikhq> Plan 9 is beautiful.
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17:55:36 <AnMaster> yay reduced that to a 449 MB trace (thanks to removing 4 extra db checks for every time ip moved).
17:56:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this does not mean I'm going speed crazy with efunge, just I'm tired of it being so slow.
17:57:24 <ehird> I was born into a family of inter-generational satanists, members of the global elite conspiracy referred to as the New World Order. After suffering horrific abuse by my relatives I was sold to the CIA for mind control experimentation. I was eventually rescued by aliens who transported me to their mothership. I was subjected to years of testing and evaluation by these beings and eventually found worthy to host the consciousness of an advanced being that
17:57:26 <ehird> lives in the Alpha Centauri system. I retain some memories of my childhood as a human, but my conscious awareness is transmitted to the cybernetic body I currently inhabit, from Alpha Centauri.
17:57:29 <ehird> β http://a08201960a.livejournal.com/profile
17:58:31 <ehird> It seems a little too ridiculous to be a nutcase.
17:59:06 <AnMaster> well... so did timecube first time I saw it. I assumed it was a joke and was rather surprised when I found out it was a nutcase.
18:00:14 <ehird> An atheist group which is to begin advising the BBC on religious programmes such as Thought for the Day is heralding the change as a βgreat stepβ.
18:00:15 <ehird> Prominent atheists such as A C Grayling and Phillip Pullman have also welcomed the move to allow βnon-religiousβ groups to influence religious programming.
18:00:18 <ehird> However, the move is likely to exacerbate concerns that the BBC is increasingly neglecting its Christian audience.
18:00:21 <ehird> β http://www.christian.org.uk/news/20090421/atheist-to-join-new-bbc-religion-board/
18:00:24 <ehird> These people are obsessed with the bbc!
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19:08:34 <fizzieds> strange that this dsorg-irc said "cannot join #esoteric, requires registered nick!"
19:09:17 <fizzieds> i guess i'm not really here, then.
19:10:00 <fizzieds> fungot: do you think i'm here?
19:10:00 <fungot> fizzieds: received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com ( 5.57/ uucp-project/ commodore jan 13 1990). see section 3.2.4 for caveats. now if i want a job on this
19:17:11 <fizzieds> hi, figment of my imagination.
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19:20:38 <AnMaster> also the modes doesn't include +r or +R or whichever it was that meant "need registered nick"
19:21:23 <fizzieds> it doesn't always say that, only sometimes.
19:22:49 <AnMaster> your client doesn't respond to either CTCP PING or CTCP VERSION
19:23:06 <AnMaster> or wait, I'm blocking /msg from unregistered
19:23:51 <AnMaster> why not use your normal computer instead
19:24:04 <AnMaster> -fizzieds- VERSION DSOrganize IRC 3.2 by DragonMinded
19:24:44 <fizzie> "Fatal Error! DSOrganize has run out of free file handles."
19:24:48 <fizzie> It does that quite often.
19:25:12 <fizzie> I wasn't using this because the cat has occupied my chair, and standing on my knees like this is tiresome.
19:25:23 <fizzie> Maybe I should take the laptop to bed instead of the DS, though.
19:27:43 <AnMaster> oh wait, profiling screwing up on recursive functions.
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20:25:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I just realised there is an easy way to support "software suspend" in efunge :D
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21:20:08 <Deewiant> ehird: Re: reusing CCBI 1 code, here's the latest commit: 'rewrite fingerprints/cats_eye/toys.d (81%)'
21:21:50 <Deewiant> Can I get git or diffstat to show rewrite stats for arbitrary commits?
21:22:04 <ehird> That's more of a #git question, I think.
21:22:07 <ehird> I'm interested too.
21:25:26 <Deewiant> -B says "detect complete rewrites" but it doesn't seem to detect or say anything
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21:30:00 <Deewiant> Not as bad as I thought, then. Only 4 rewrites and only TURT left.
21:30:08 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/cats_eye/toys.d (81%)
21:30:08 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/cats_eye/orth.d (74%)
21:30:08 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/cats_eye/mode.d (72%)
21:30:08 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/cats_eye/hrti.d (69%)
21:34:00 <Ilari> Its git diff-tree nowadays. :-)
21:34:19 <Deewiant> Yes, but the manpage says git-diff-tree.
21:35:17 <Ilari> SYNOPIS: git diff-tree [--stdin] [-m] ...
21:35:25 <ehird> Deewiant: So, you changed to git?
21:35:32 <Deewiant> git-diff-tree - Compares the content and mode of blobs found via two
21:35:43 <Deewiant> Also "Note that git-diff-tree..."
21:35:58 <ehird> To the repository.
21:36:52 <Deewiant> Not publically hosted and I don't have a permanent server up; if you want to clone, let me know and I'll put something temporary up :-P
21:37:12 <ehird> My request for a URI was based on the want to clone, yes...
21:37:47 <Deewiant> Just confirming that the URI will work only when you ask me to make it work.
21:38:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Make it work :-P
21:38:12 <ehird> Pedantry is important.
21:38:23 <Deewiant> I guess "git daemon" is enough?
21:39:02 <Ilari> Deewiant: In fact with version I have: "bash: git-diff-tree: command not found".
21:39:04 <Deewiant> Assuming it uses some kind of default port, git://tar.us.to
21:39:44 <Ilari> Deewiant: git daemon is server for git://. The default port is 9418.
21:40:22 <ehird> Deewiant: Try "git instaweb", too.
21:40:27 <Deewiant> Yes, and I assume that if I just do 'git daemon' then ehird can do 'git clone git://tar.us.to' and it'll work
21:40:36 <ehird> That serves gitweb over HTTP.
21:40:38 <ehird> Dunno what port it uses.
21:40:56 <ehird> Initialized empty Git repository in /Users/ehird/Downloads/ccbi2/.git/
21:40:56 <ehird> [0: ::1]: errno=Connection refused
21:40:58 <ehird> [0: 127.0.0.1]: errno=Connection refused
21:41:00 <ehird> fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection refused)
21:41:03 <ehird> Deewiant: it also works with apache
21:41:11 <Deewiant> ehird: Don't have something that bloated either :-P
21:41:31 <ehird> Deewiant: do you have ruby?
21:41:34 <ehird> then you have webrick
21:41:37 <Ilari> Deewiant: That URI won't work. Its missing the path part (which by default is relative to '/').
21:41:45 <ehird> % git clone git://tar.us.to/ ccbi2
21:41:46 <ehird> Initialized empty Git repository in /Users/ehird/Downloads/ccbi2/.git/
21:41:47 <ehird> fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
21:41:52 <Deewiant> [13882] '/': unable to chdir or not a git archive
21:42:20 <Deewiant> Meh, can't I tell it to run in this directory
21:42:30 <ehird> Deewiant: just git instaweb -d webrick -p 8181
21:42:31 <Ilari> Deewiant: --base-path
21:42:54 <Deewiant> ehird: Address already in use :-P
21:43:16 <Ilari> Deewiant: 'git daemon --base-path=$PWD --export-all', or something.
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21:44:20 <Ilari> Receiving objects: 100% (889/889), 246.24 KiB | 31 KiB/s, done.
21:44:33 <Deewiant> Bah, was that you and not ehird? :-P
21:44:58 <ehird> % git clone git://tar.us.to/ ccbi2
21:44:58 <ehird> Initialized empty Git repository in /Users/ehird/Downloads/ccbi2/.git/
21:45:23 <Deewiant> Better kill it before there are twelvety forks
21:46:30 <Deewiant> Or hmm, just a borked-up router there
21:49:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about git, where is the url for ccbi2?
21:49:41 <Deewiant> ehird: So what are you planning
21:49:47 <AnMaster> since you went to the dark side
21:49:47 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm just taking a look.
21:50:07 <ehird> Hooray for the dark side!
21:50:14 <AnMaster> ehird, Deewiant: in other news, google code now offers mercurial too, but not git. (still experimental)
21:50:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: tenish lines up or so
21:50:33 <ehird> AnMaster: They didn't do git because git-over-http is slow and they're too stupid to set up a git:// server ;-)
21:50:40 <ehird> (Alternatively, because their infrastructure is set up for http.)
21:51:03 <AnMaster> anyway I think they did the right choice.
21:51:26 <ehird> Yes, someone who is a rabid git antipath probably would.
21:52:02 <AnMaster> though git *is* getting better slowly. At least it isn't as bad as a few years ago.
21:52:51 <ehird> A few years ago, Linus had made git as a toy weekend project.
21:53:18 <coppro> I have yet to try git.
21:53:37 <ehird> coppro: you really should. Despite the criticisms, it _is_ good, and it's certainly popular.
21:53:42 <AnMaster> ehird, a few years meaning mid-2007 in this case.
21:53:43 <ehird> (AnMaster will now dispute that.)
21:54:15 <coppro> Yeah, I haven't had a lot of trouble with SVN for my purposes though - it's biggest failing is scalability and my stuff is never big enough for that to matter.
21:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird, also why does one even need git gc
21:54:31 <coppro> The next on the list (merging) has hurt me more
21:54:33 <AnMaster> as a end user I shouldn't need to care about that.
21:54:41 <coppro> isn't git gc just like svn cleanup?
21:54:44 <ehird> coppro: "git init" vs "svnadmin create /var/svn/baldflkgdfgjkdfgdfjklgdfkjg"
21:54:48 <ehird> coppro: and git's faster
21:54:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Git is a file system.
21:55:04 <AnMaster> coppro, both hg and bzr have short init commands too
21:55:04 <ehird> "git gc" is sort of like defragmenting; not technically, but same use case.
21:55:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So anyway if you want an in-development copy for perusal it's at git://tar.us.to
21:55:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the tool should do that itself when needed.
21:55:23 <ehird> As in, you run it perioridically to keep things tidy.
21:55:34 <ehird> AnMaster: The filesystem should defrag automatically when needed!
21:55:50 <ehird> git is a filesystem
21:55:51 <coppro> ehird: git init creates the repo where?
21:55:57 <ehird> coppro: current directory
21:56:01 <ehird> mkdir project; cd project; git init
21:56:14 <AnMaster> coppro, same for hg init and bzr init
21:56:20 <coppro> distributed system, right
21:56:21 <ehird> AnMaster: we get it alraedy
21:56:27 <ehird> he's asking about git
21:56:28 <AnMaster> not a special advantage of git
21:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you tried to make it sound like only git had that feature.
21:56:44 <ehird> I said it was an advantage of git over svn
21:56:51 <Ilari> Pretty much only scalabilty problems are that big files suck and even with highly efficent history storage, the bandwidth to clone will grow.
21:56:57 <AnMaster> ehird, then you were ambiguous.
21:57:17 <ehird> clearly coppro here understood m
21:58:16 <AnMaster> Ilari, that will happen for any vcs won't it?
21:58:38 <coppro> re speed: I rarely get big enough repos that speed becomes a factor
21:58:47 <coppro> hence my comment about SVN's scalability
21:59:07 <coppro> the only big SVN repo I use is GCC, which is admittedly awful
21:59:08 <AnMaster> well cvs actually seems to handle big files better than svn, haven't seen any project using any vcs other than cvs and svn for multi-MB datafiles.
21:59:26 <coppro> it takes SVN forever just to notice there's no changes
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22:04:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still haven't fixed the bug with source directory name
22:05:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: $PWD right now is ~/programming/projects/ccbi/ccbi/ccbi
22:05:23 <ehird> I just have ccbi2/
22:05:49 <ehird> you don't have ldmd.
22:06:05 <AnMaster> and I'm following build instructions on your website
22:06:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Put ldmd there as well.
22:06:09 <oerjan> it seems funge-98 is a very reflective language, maybe we should recommend it to the TUNES project?
22:06:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where do I get ldmd..?
22:06:24 <Deewiant> Just not 'make install'ed for some reason.
22:06:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well then it is odd ldmd isn't there
22:07:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw did you ever manage to fix your TERM?
22:08:03 <oerjan> admittedly its curry-howard logic is probably going to be something from the elder gods, so maybe not
22:08:19 <Deewiant> Yay, all Cat's Eye fingerprints done.
22:08:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tango.core.Exception.ArrayBoundsException@ccbi.d(140): Array index out of bounds
22:08:30 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:08:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, from the test tests/bounds.b98 bundled with cfunge
22:09:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, concurrent-issues.b98 makes it lock up btw.
22:09:48 <Deewiant> Heh, I wonder where that error is coming from
22:09:48 <AnMaster> io-errors.b98 also lead to "tango.core.Exception.ArrayBoundsException@ccbi.d(140): Array index out of bounds"
22:10:04 <Deewiant> Given that ccbi.d(140) is in the middle of a string constant
22:10:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, iterate-zero.b98 -> lockup
22:10:28 <Deewiant> Gah, I know you have tests! :-P
22:10:43 <Deewiant> This is a development version and I know it is buggy
22:10:46 <AnMaster> you implement PERL but not FILE?
22:10:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2009-04-25 00:08:18 ( Deewiant) Yay, all Cat's Eye fingerprints done.
22:11:13 <AnMaster> split-in-iterate.b98 -> lockup
22:11:16 <Deewiant> I'm translating CCBI1 fingerprints to CCBI2 in the order that Mycology tests them.
22:11:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok but fix the core bugs first!
22:11:33 <AnMaster> why implement fingerprints if the core is broken
22:11:50 <Deewiant> I'm not going to release anything until the bugs are fixed anyway
22:11:54 <Deewiant> So what does it matter in what order I do things
22:13:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ./ccbi -t -> segfault
22:13:49 <oerjan> <Deewiant> So first you give them your number and then you send a message from that number so it knows what result to give you
22:14:07 <oerjan> is this that damn thing with the einstein doll? it's in norwegian too
22:14:39 <oerjan> i got really disappointed too when they wanted my phone number
22:15:04 <Deewiant> Hmm, tracer should work but isn't working.
22:15:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess you got a different approach to developing than me.
22:15:38 <ehird> Einstein dolL? Wat.
22:15:38 <AnMaster> even early on I went for bug fixes before features.
22:16:05 <Deewiant> It's just that I'm doing this for fun
22:16:06 <oerjan> ehird: well, einstein avatar-like picture
22:16:13 <Deewiant> And I haven't been able to do anything for 8 months
22:16:29 <Deewiant> So I'd rather do something fun than track down array out-of-bounds errors
22:16:30 <ehird> befunge 98: srs bzns
22:16:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes so am I. But debugging is fun usually. And often not that hard.
22:16:40 <ehird> "But debugging is fun usually."
22:16:46 <AnMaster> at least if you know your way around gdb
22:16:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Do tell me if you can find the actual line where that ArrayBoundsException happens.
22:18:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Why is it saying that then... I never had line number being wrong like that in C...
22:18:16 <AnMaster> sometimes they can be off by one or so in flex/bison output.
22:18:42 <ehird> Deewiant: Maybe it counts long string literals as one line.
22:18:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, my gdb doesn't work on D code. What sort of debugger do you use for backtraces.
22:18:57 <oerjan> ehird: maybe AnMaster is a vulcan
22:19:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? do I need to do clean somehow, and if so how?
22:19:37 <AnMaster> rebuild -rfccbi.rf -gc -full ?
22:19:45 <Deewiant> Yeah, I guess that should work
22:20:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, tyst pΓ₯ dig, rΓΆj mig inte!
22:20:54 <AnMaster> it doesn't even do SIGABRT or anything I can catch on
22:21:05 <Deewiant> Which is why tracing never got enabled.
22:21:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they fixed that first one you had in ccbi2?
22:21:15 <Deewiant> I wonder if I've reported it already.
22:21:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I found a workaround.
22:21:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, clear an area, reveal, blow the cover...
22:22:18 <ehird> 22:21 AnMaster: oerjan, clear an area, reveal, blow the cover...
22:22:19 <oerjan> ah, no:rΓΈp. except not the first meaning.
22:22:24 <ehird> this is either a quote from Swedish CSI
22:22:28 <ehird> or the worst song ever
22:23:21 <ehird> CSI is a terrible US crime TV show where they have computers that go bleep and have lost of bars and password crackers.
22:23:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh no, do I need to update it. In that case I'm going to skip it for now.
22:23:26 <ehird> Their image editor is superb.
22:23:32 <ehird> It can zoom in on any image to any detail
22:23:34 <ehird> No matter how small
22:23:45 <ehird> They can pick up fully coloured, full resolution images from *reflections in people's eyes*.
22:23:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway tell me how I can break on that bound check failing.
22:23:49 <Deewiant> I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about how argument parsing doesn't work at all
22:23:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know, I thought you were the gdb expert
22:24:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes I am. For C programs.
22:24:19 <Deewiant> Then it doesn't do bounds checking
22:24:54 <oerjan> ehird: and let me guess, real stupid people now complain when real police doesn't do such things? :D
22:25:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Would you say debugging C code is easier than D code?
22:25:15 <ehird> oerjan: People, in general, think you can do shit like that.
22:25:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Less abstractions to dig through.
22:25:46 <Deewiant> Which also means you can't see the forest for the trees.
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22:25:51 <oerjan> ehird: i suppose it would be "good" if criminals thought they could...
22:25:52 <Deewiant> Depends on what kind of bug it is.
22:26:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the abstractions mean you can't see the forest for the trees?
22:26:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/xp9smF58.html
22:26:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think it got line numbers backwards.
22:27:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: ah, the first meaning would be no:rydd, probably
22:27:38 <Deewiant> Unless you built with optimizations.
22:27:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway debug info is clearly bonkers here.
22:27:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, rebuild -rfccbi.rf -gc -full -release
22:28:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, my ldc might be a week or two old though.
22:28:19 <AnMaster> not sure when it was we talked about ldc last time
22:29:04 <oerjan> <fizzie> That was passing strange; when waking up from suspend-to-ram, one of my hard drives refused to start. Rebooting made it operational again. Though now it needs to resync the raid thing.
22:29:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So did you find the exact line of the error yet? :-P
22:29:20 <oerjan> i've had that happen to me occasionally after hibernating
22:29:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no the line info is bonkers as I said.
22:29:32 <oerjan> (which is what i do 99% of the time)
22:29:54 <Deewiant> So you're helpless unless your debugger tells you exactly where the problem is?
22:29:55 <oerjan> erm, the laptop that is. although maybe i'm doing it in real life too..
22:30:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no. Since I can at least hope function matches.
22:30:25 <AnMaster> and I assume I have a working compiler.
22:30:31 <AnMaster> That is true most of the case for C
22:31:08 <AnMaster> and if I suspect an issue there I can just try a totally different compiler, like icc or clang
22:31:42 <Deewiant> Did ccbi -t always segfault for you?
22:32:03 <AnMaster> well I haven't tried 2 before today
22:32:25 <Deewiant> As in, not just on a particular file but always.
22:32:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I tried 4 times, and yes every time
22:32:35 <Deewiant> I'll chalk that up to old LDC.
22:32:49 <Deewiant> Since it works fine for me now that I worked around http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc/ticket/267 .
22:32:59 <AnMaster> I haven't searched the entire file name possibility space.
22:33:14 <AnMaster> I think that would be rather hard
22:33:15 <Deewiant> I'd be rather amused if it depended on file name. :-P
22:33:22 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> As in, not just on a particular file but always.
22:33:27 <AnMaster> you seemed to indicate it did?
22:33:41 <AnMaster> well I tried without any file argument too
22:34:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, disassembly output from gdb is unreadable
22:34:08 <AnMaster> Dump of assembler code for function _D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctorMFC5tango2io5model8IConduit11InputStreamZC4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace:
22:34:08 <AnMaster> 0x000000000040adb0 <_D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctorMFC5tango2io5model8IConduit11InputStreamZC4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace+0>: push %rbx
22:34:08 <AnMaster> 0x000000000040adb1 <_D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctorMFC5tango2io5model8IConduit11InputStreamZC4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace+1>: sub $0x30,%rsp
22:34:08 <AnMaster> 0x000000000040adb5 <_D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctorMFC5tango2io5model8IConduit11InputStreamZC4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace+5>: mov %rdi,0x28(%rsp)
22:34:13 <AnMaster> 0x000000000040adba <_D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctorMFC5tango2io5model8IConduit11InputStreamZC4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace+10>: mov %rsi,0x20(%rsp)
22:34:16 <AnMaster> much much wider than my terminal
22:34:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why this urge for insane function names
22:34:39 <Deewiant> Well don't ask it to disassemble a function, ask it to disassemble a memory area
22:35:02 <Deewiant> ccbi.space.FungeSpace[ccbi.cell.cell] something or whatever
22:35:02 <AnMaster> is there actually any need with no overloads.
22:35:10 <ehird> so you want it to specialcase
22:35:13 <Deewiant> How do you know whether there are overloads
22:35:14 <ehird> thus making it hard on the toolchain
22:35:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um, the compiler can know when it compiles?
22:35:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Only the linker can know for sure.
22:35:41 <ehird> Precompiled modules.
22:35:55 <AnMaster> well module name should be part of the function name clearly
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22:36:18 <AnMaster> but ok I can see why mangled names can be useful yes. But why not use the standard scheme
22:36:27 <Deewiant> That is the standard scheme, for D.
22:36:39 <AnMaster> any reason D can't use a compatible scheme?
22:36:48 <ehird> compatible with what
22:37:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway doesn't it crash for you or?
22:38:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if compiler is generating bogus debug info it is too much work for some program I'm not a developer of.,
22:38:26 <ehird> AnMaster: i thought debugging was fun
22:38:27 <Deewiant> I never use debug info for anything. :-P
22:38:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it is, for C. It isn't for C++ though. It seems D is as bad there.
22:39:16 <ehird> because it's not C++?
22:39:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the main function of D programs. when I break on main() I end up in "main (argc=2, argv=0x7fff352a2738, env=0x7fff352a2750) at /home/arvid/src/llvm/ldc/runtime/internal/dmain2.d:170"
22:39:31 <Deewiant> Well, anyway, looking <_D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctor the bug is clearly in the constructor of FungeSpace.
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22:41:18 <AnMaster> argh finish doesn't work for D
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22:41:50 <Deewiant> The line number was correct, the file should have been space.d though.
22:42:01 <AnMaster> ehird, as in gdb's "finish" meaning continue until current function returns"
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22:42:14 <ehird> well it hates finns doo
22:42:27 <Deewiant> Sounds like it might break with closures
22:42:48 <AnMaster> #0 gc_malloc (sz=0, ba=0) at /home/arvid/src/llvm/ldc/runtime/../tango/lib/gc/basic/gc.d:146
22:42:48 <AnMaster> #1 0x0000000000a0b650 in _D5tango4text7convert6Layout13__T6LayoutTaZ6Layout7__ClassZ ()
22:42:49 <Deewiant> Since 'current function' is a bit blurred there
22:42:57 <AnMaster> I tried finish and it ended at the sigsegv
22:43:13 <Deewiant> Isn't that exactly what should happen, then? :-P
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22:43:32 <AnMaster> #0 gc_malloc (sz=0, ba=0) at /home/arvid/src/llvm/ldc/runtime/../tango/lib/gc/basic/gc.d:146
22:43:32 <AnMaster> #1 0x0000000000a0b650 in _D5tango4text7convert6Layout13__T6LayoutTaZ6Layout7__ClassZ ()
22:43:32 <AnMaster> #2 0x00000000004249f5 in _D5tango4text5Regex14__T7RegExpTTaZ7RegExpT6opCallFAaAaZC5tango4text5Regex14__T7RegExpTTaZ7RegExpT (pattern=
22:43:32 <AnMaster> {length = 26, ptr = 0x79ae00 "^(?--?|/)(?[?]|h(?e?lp)?)$"}, attributes={length = 1, ptr = 0x79ae24 "i"})
22:43:35 <AnMaster> at /home/arvid/src/llvm/ldc/runtime/../tango/tango/text/Regex.d:3672
22:43:37 <AnMaster> #3 0x000000000040347a in _Dmain (args={length = 1, ptr = 0x1087070}) at ccbi.d:298
22:43:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: foo blarg glrple plotz
22:43:40 <AnMaster> finish there should have put it in _D5tango4text7convert6Layout13__T6LayoutTaZ6Layout7__ClassZ
22:43:55 <Deewiant> "continue until current function returns"
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22:44:09 <Deewiant> Or wait, you did finish from gc_malloc?
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22:44:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, current being the one I'm in now. Which was gc_malloc() at that point.
22:44:20 <AnMaster> so it should have put me there
22:44:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't you read a backtrace?
22:44:37 <Deewiant> I didn't realize what you meant by it
22:44:42 <AnMaster> anyway there were more frames below _Dmain
22:44:51 <Deewiant> I thought it was just another meaningless paste
22:45:17 <Deewiant> This is all somewhat uninteresting, you know, since I found the bug already and you're just preventing me from fixing it :-P
22:45:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I'm happy you found it, but this is the first time I ever saw a compiler putting the wrong file name in debug info.
22:46:10 <AnMaster> is there any stable (read: rock solid) D compiler out there.
22:46:35 <AnMaster> you know there is for C right? It is very useful.
22:46:36 <Deewiant> DMD has the most trustworthy backend, LDC frontend.
22:46:47 <ehird> 22:46 AnMaster: is there any stable (read: rock solid) D compiler out there.
22:46:47 <ehird> 22:46 AnMaster: something you can trust.
22:46:53 <ehird> It's fair and balanced.
22:47:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Anyway, the bug was that there's a space at (0,0) and since you told me to optimize away spaces from the hash table it caused a null deref / equivalent
22:47:48 <ehird> I'd write a D compiler, only the language sucks.
22:48:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So it's all your fault, actually. ;-P
22:48:44 <ehird> Deewiant: Haskell. C. (Plof.)
22:49:05 <ehird> Deewiant: C, Haskell.
22:49:25 <Deewiant> Haskell I'm not sure about, I hoped you wouldn't mention it. :-P
22:50:12 <ehird> I might write the most amazing D compiler ever, but write it entirely in D. GDC-specific D.
22:50:37 <Deewiant> As long as it's free, people will gladly port it to non-GDC-specific D. :-P
22:51:02 <ehird> If D people did anything other than be lazy, I would have an environment set up.
22:51:41 <Deewiant> Which I think explains most of your problems. :-P
22:51:42 <ehird> Most D people can't write portable code?
22:51:49 <ehird> Am I meant to be surprised?
22:51:54 <Deewiant> Not when they're talking directly to the kernel.
22:52:36 <ehird> 'Cuz libc doesn't require porting to 5 billion OSes?
22:52:41 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: So it's all your fault, actually. ;-P <-- um, I told you also to properly check for NULL :P
22:52:50 <ehird> So are operating systems.
22:53:01 <ehird> But we don't fucking make every language implementation have a bootloader.
22:53:02 <AnMaster> at least libc isn't *bloated* crap
22:53:12 <AnMaster> compared to most other runtimes
22:53:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I was thinking of libstdc++ mostly
22:53:31 <AnMaster> I don't know enough about tango to be sure
22:53:32 <ehird> I might write a toy Haskell. That would be fun.
22:54:11 <Deewiant> C++ is bloated mostly due to the locale stuff, I think
22:54:17 <Deewiant> Other than that I don't consider it very bloated
22:54:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about other parts of C++? Do you like them?
22:55:00 <AnMaster> such as templates, the casts, it's overloading, references vs. pointers.
23:04:13 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: is there any D compiler written in D? i remember old LDC repo contains LLVM binding in D, but...
23:04:27 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: No complete one, no.
23:04:35 <Deewiant> I don't think anybody's writing a backend in D.
23:06:03 <ehird> frontend is non-code-generation right
23:07:15 <ehird> Deewiant: backend sounds easier, if you target sth like llvm
23:08:15 <ehird> so i'd expect more backends
23:08:49 <Deewiant> There's Walter's, an LLVM one, and a GCC one. How many do you want? :-P
23:11:47 <ehird> D's quite similar to C, right? For most code.
23:11:50 <ehird> Plus object dispatch.
23:12:49 <ehird> Deewiant: A DβC compiler could allow gcc's C support to work its magic...
23:13:52 <Deewiant> Compiling to C++ would be easier
23:14:03 <ehird> C++'s object model is different
23:14:56 <ehird> Deewiant: setjmp / longjmp
23:15:14 <Deewiant> ehird: Doesn't interact with other D.
23:15:47 <Deewiant> Throwing to or catching from D compiled by a different compiler
23:16:23 <ehird> Deewiant: The compilers interoperate?
23:17:07 <Deewiant> They do to some extent, but in practice not really.
23:17:22 <Deewiant> GDC doesn't implement the ABI at all, I don't think.
23:17:30 <Deewiant> DMD/LDC might fare reasonably well.
23:24:31 <ehird> "The first version of LDC, the LLVM based compiler for version one of the D programming language has been released for x86-32 Linux. Get it here! "
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23:25:02 <ehird> Their "release" is just a binary for one architechture/platform
23:34:25 <AnMaster> <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: is there any D compiler written in D? i remember old LDC repo contains LLVM binding in D, but... <-- that would be stupid. Since there is no good compiler for D yet ;P
23:35:10 <lifthrasiir> at least garbage collection is helpful for developing such one.
23:35:17 <fungot> I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I me ...too much output!
23:35:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, likely you would end up fixing whatever compiler you used for boot strapping so it worked better.
23:36:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, only for those who made that compiler!
23:36:29 <oerjan> ^ul ((I mean ")S:^):^(:^(", so there!)S):^
23:36:30 <fungot> I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I me ...too much output!
23:36:36 <AnMaster> except those trying to write the new compiler in D.
23:36:53 <Deewiant> No, also for them, since they get a better compiler which is what they wanted all along.
23:37:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, didn't they just want to make a better compiler than anyone else.
23:37:22 <AnMaster> which they would have failed at.
23:37:23 <oerjan> you could imagine an evaluation for underload where both those parts printed something...
23:37:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Selfish bastards get what they deserved :-P
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23:38:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I prefer a language where compiler bugs are so rare that I only ever ran into one and that time the compiler said "Internal compiler error\nSegmentation fault"
23:38:26 <oerjan> with enough laziness at both ends
23:38:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Just fixed the bug of concurrent-issues; x-coordinate of minimum point of funge-space was MAX_INT, so the p set it to 9, so the v at (0,15) never worked.
23:38:47 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: you mean gcc or g++, for example?
23:38:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I've run into more than one GCC bug.
23:39:01 <ehird> gcc is shit when you try any edge cases
23:39:03 <ehird> that thing is NOT stable
23:39:08 <ehird> it's also really slow
23:39:15 <AnMaster> ehird, better than icc at least.
23:39:58 <AnMaster> anyway the gcc bug I had was in -fverbose-show-what-you-are-doing=10 or something like that
23:40:22 <AnMaster> where it ended up trying to dereference a NULL pointer in the verbose output
23:40:30 <AnMaster> not even a code generation bug.
23:41:03 <AnMaster> g++ I have seen break a few time
23:41:14 <ehird> Deewiant: Tango hello world plz?
23:41:18 <ehird> THink I got a working d environment
23:41:34 <Deewiant> ehird: import tango.io.Stdout; void main() { Stdout("Hello world").newline; }
23:42:04 <ehird> AnMaster: no it's not.
23:42:07 <ehird> how is that fucked up
23:42:13 <ehird> or do you mean unfamiliar
23:42:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well what does that . do
23:42:49 <ehird> Objects. Heard of them?
23:43:11 <ehird> Stdout is a- yeah.
23:43:47 <AnMaster> does it make an instance of Stdout that prints hello world and then calls the newline function of it....
23:44:02 <ehird> GregorR: http://pastie.org/457615.txt?key=dyf5vrrylmoquuwrxv6e5g β plz to be sensemaking; but with s/GregorR/Deewiant/
23:44:06 <AnMaster> ok so what does the () do on it
23:44:18 <ehird> AnMaster: runs the magic call method, like c++'s operator () or Python's __call__
23:44:24 <ehird> the call then outputs ,and returns Stdout
23:44:30 <ehird> then the newline method is called
23:44:33 <ehird> which prints \n then returns Stdout
23:44:35 <ehird> thus allowing for chaining
23:44:36 <AnMaster> ehird, ok.... that seems rather odd way to write it.
23:44:40 <ehird> Deewiant: tried to compile hello world.
23:44:42 <AnMaster> as in "makes not a lot of sense"
23:44:51 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course. What'd you do to do that.
23:44:51 <ehird> Deewiant: should I use rebuild?
23:44:56 <ehird> and "ldc hello.d -of=hello"
23:44:58 <ehird> but I just have rebuild
23:45:07 <Deewiant> Then that won't work, of course. :-P
23:45:39 <Deewiant> ehird: You need to compile in Tango /somehow/. Either with the user lib or something like rebuild.
23:45:44 <Deewiant> Or do what rebuild does manually.
23:45:51 <ehird> % rebuild hello.d -ofhello
23:45:51 <ehird> hello.d(1): module Stdout cannot read file 'tango/io/Stdout.d'
23:45:55 <ehird> That's rather more exciting.
23:46:01 <AnMaster> ehird, then I guess the file isn't there.
23:46:21 <AnMaster> ~/funges/interpreters/ccbi2/ccbi $ git pull
23:46:22 <AnMaster> tar.us.to[0: 88.114.230.37]: errno=Connection refused
23:46:22 <AnMaster> fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection refused)
23:46:22 <AnMaster> You have new mail in /var/mail/arvid
23:46:43 <AnMaster> since you said you fixed that bug
23:47:06 <AnMaster> and I'm pretty sure you can host git without special server side support, even if it is slower.
23:48:26 <ehird> Yay, almost fixed.
23:56:26 <AnMaster> tar.us.to[0: 88.114.230.37]: errno=Connection refused
23:56:26 <AnMaster> fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection refused)
23:56:39 <Deewiant> Yes, I am not blind to what happened 3 lines earlier
23:56:53 <Deewiant> And if you had understood my message, you would have realized that you don't want a tree I'm about to rebase
23:57:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I see. I haven't ever used rebase.
23:58:09 <AnMaster> since I prefer not to change the history ;P
23:58:23 <Deewiant> Yes, but I fucked up and I'm trying to fix it
00:01:30 <Deewiant> With the disclaimer that if I rebase again you might have to clone again. :-P
00:01:57 <Deewiant> The bugfixes are only on the 'master' branch.
00:02:09 <Deewiant> I'm going to sleep now ------->
00:03:25 <ehird> I found out the problem
00:03:28 <ehird> you have to hack the ldc code
00:03:36 <ehird> to use extern (C)s
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00:11:12 <ehird> Because the LDC developers are braindead.
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00:32:33 <ehird> They are doing nothing.
00:32:37 <ehird> Because they all use linux-32.
00:35:59 <pikhq> It sorta works on linux-64.
00:36:08 <pikhq> Those are the two architectures it can work on.
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01:47:07 <pikhq> Judge seals court after it's argued that discussing the details of CSS would "violate trade secrets."
01:47:45 <pikhq> Said judge needs to read a certain epic haiku, methinks...
01:48:02 * oerjan picks up his eye after it rolled out
01:53:52 <pikhq> ... You have a glass eye?
01:54:46 <oerjan> no, it's a metaphorical eye
01:55:50 <oerjan> those roll very smoothly
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06:37:54 <kerlo> I used to rule the world
06:38:00 <kerlo> This lyrics site sucks.
06:38:40 <kerlo> pikhq: does an epic haiku consist of 24 chapters with an average of 17/24 syllables each?
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15:12:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I ran into a product with non-plug-and-play USB today btw.
15:12:49 <ais523> most things are like that on Windows, it seems
15:13:38 <AnMaster> ais523, same eletrical piano that I mentioned before. I tried connecting the usb cable while it was turned on, it didn't work until I turned the piano off and then on.
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15:14:30 <AnMaster> I guess "plug and play" was wrong word. Rather "connect while powered on"
15:14:34 -!- shahri has left (?).
15:14:47 <AnMaster> which to me is part of "plug and play"
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15:45:23 <ehird> I'm about to say something that anyone who knows me - probably esp. ais523 as I rant to him a lot -
15:45:27 <ehird> will think I've been replaced by a double
15:45:49 <ais523> well, those lines were rather in character, what's your out-of-character line?
15:46:01 <ais523> have you suddenly decided you like Ubuntu's font rendering, for instance?
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15:47:07 <ais523> hi noogah, why the beh?
15:47:16 <ehird> he's probably busy hating his mac.
15:47:32 <nooga> i thought i'd manage compiling sadol to C using C constructs, but now i am afraid that i'd rather should compile to realy basic operations and hold own stack and variables doing for registers
15:47:34 * ais523 decides making an announcement that you're about to say something important and then not saying it is somewhat out of character for ehird
15:47:53 <ehird> ais523: I was waiting for nooga to start idling, so that my insanity could be undisturbed
15:48:13 <ais523> *indeed out of character
15:48:36 <nooga> ehird: nope. i just discovered RubyCocoa
15:48:46 <ehird> nooga: you want to run that on an iphone?
15:48:50 <nooga> things got better instantly
15:48:54 <ehird> that thing will be slow as fuck
15:49:15 <nooga> yea, but now i'm happily coding desktop apps
15:49:27 <ehird> i thought making iphone apps was your job :p
15:50:03 <nooga> but i'm trying to relax
15:53:30 <ehird> ais523: sartak works on taeb right?
15:53:41 <ais523> sartak's chief maintainer, I think he invented it
15:53:51 <ehird> a blog post of his is on reddit, heh
15:53:59 <ehird> does TAEB use Moose?
15:54:04 <AnMaster> heh I read that as "saitek" first.
15:54:06 <ais523> and the sartak-doy pair of repositories is a walled garden, and TAEB mainline
15:54:19 <ais523> and yes, TAEB not only uses Moose but is a rather useful testcase for it
15:54:21 <ehird> TAEB's development model sucks...
15:54:34 <ehird> they use a dvcs to distribute cathedrals
15:54:39 <ais523> ehird: they only autopull from each other, patches from outside have to be approved by Sartak or doy
15:54:39 <ehird> I'm not even sure that makes semantic sense
15:55:05 <ais523> then there's a sort of cloud around the outside which pull from each other sometimes and from Sartak/doy mostly
15:55:12 <ais523> that's sort of me, sorear, shabble at the moment
15:55:18 <AnMaster> distributed cathedrals. That sounds... insane? completely nuts?
15:55:25 <ais523> it isn't cathedral-style
15:55:37 <ais523> you can see the development process happen, and test patches as much as you like
15:55:42 <ais523> they just have to be reviewed before they get into mainline
15:55:51 <ais523> which is a sane way to run any project, really
16:08:54 <nooga> Moose vs Doodle => Doodle
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16:30:55 * nooga is using loop for loop condition
16:34:49 <AnMaster> nooga, do you mean like while(strlen(a[i++]) > 3)
16:34:58 <AnMaster> (strlen() would have a loop in itself)
16:35:04 <nooga> like while(while() {}) {}
16:35:26 <AnMaster> nooga, It isn't valid in C I think, so what language allows this?
16:35:54 <AnMaster> in C you could just do it with a function for the condition loop
16:36:17 <AnMaster> so allowing it inline like that is just syntactic sugar.
16:36:18 <nooga> so compiling sadol to C using C constructs sucks
16:36:40 <AnMaster> nooga, err it is easy, factor that out into a new function
16:36:41 <nooga> because i need to generate dummy function for that loop
16:37:09 <nooga> meny functions = many calls = slow
16:37:13 <AnMaster> static inline int sadol_func_autogen973(foo);
16:37:39 <nooga> but inline functions are almost never used inline
16:37:48 <AnMaster> nooga, if you are GCC specific you could use statement expressions
16:38:01 <AnMaster> nooga, yes they are at -O2 and higher mostly. Never at -O0
16:38:11 <nooga> statement expressions?
16:38:21 <ehird> ({ printf("yo\n"); 2+2 })
16:38:24 <ehird> evaluates to 4 and prints yo
16:38:32 <ehird> so while (({ shit }))
16:38:35 <nooga> (printf("yo\n"),2+2)
16:38:45 <ehird> that's not a ful statement
16:38:50 <ehird> ({ int foo = 2; foo })
16:39:00 <ehird> nooga: also, evaluation order thing
16:39:13 <nooga> this makes this compiler trivial
16:39:22 <nooga> rather, translator
16:40:03 <ehird> "OCz PCI-E 2.0 x4 SSD...250GB, 500GB, 1 TB. $1,300, $2500, $3,300 "
16:40:25 <ehird> That's just crazy. A 1TB SSD _already_?
16:40:35 <ehird> Who the hell will spend that much on a drive?!
16:41:27 <Deewiant> Also, those prices were actually pulled out of a proverbial ass IIRC
16:41:53 <ehird> But seriously, nobody would pay that much for a drive.
16:41:58 <ehird> That's how much an awesome computer costs!
16:42:07 <ehird> Really mega rad. Like Zaphod Beeblebrox rad.
16:42:10 <Deewiant> Yep: 'final pricing is still being kept under wraps, we're told that it'll be kept "competitive."'
16:42:23 <ehird> $3k is so competitive
16:42:35 <Deewiant> $3k still being pulled out of one reddit submitter's ass.
16:43:03 <Deewiant> I wonder if those drives will be any good; nothing about random speeds, as usual
16:43:16 <ehird> Deewiant: apparently they're basically vertexes
16:43:27 <Deewiant> Were the vertexes the good or the bad ones? :-P
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16:53:50 <AnMaster> nooga, statement expressions are GCC specific.
16:54:08 <ehird> yes. you said that
17:17:07 <nooga> it turned out that i'm japanese
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17:22:37 <nooga> you know, i took that quiz on facebook and suddenly...
17:24:25 <nooga> also, I'm Vincent Vega
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17:27:13 <Sgeo> I WILL KILL SECOND LIFE. IF NOT BY MY BOMBS DETONATING AND CRASHING THE MAINLAND SIMS FOREVER, THEN BY THE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE OF LL FROM THE FEAR OF THE RESIDENTS
17:27:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:27:48 <ehird> Sgeo: You're so emotional about such a shit game.
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17:28:19 <fizzie> (x++,x+2) is not undefined; , introduces a sequence point.
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17:29:11 <Sgeo> ehird, I was joking
17:29:14 <fizzie> Yes. Well, according to my imperfect knowledge, anyway. , and ?: and I guess the short-circuiting &&, || all add sequence points in there.
17:29:21 <Sgeo> Although I did sort of plan out how I would do it
17:29:36 <ehird> fizzie: && and || surely don't add a sequence point?
17:30:16 <Sgeo> But it wouldn't work, except maybe for the fear part.
17:30:33 <ais523> ehird: they do indeed add a sequence point, from left to right
17:30:36 <ais523> because they short-circuit
17:30:48 <ais523> i++&&i++; is legal C code
17:31:01 <ais523> although i=i++&&4; isn't
17:31:12 <ais523> just having a sequence point isn't enough, it also has to be in the right place
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17:36:11 <nooga> IOCCC comes to my mind
17:36:33 <ais523> I have some IOCCC code lying around designed to be maximally standards-breaking whilst still working
17:36:49 <ais523> it has all sorts of fun things like void main and longjmps that jump into functions rather than out of them
17:37:07 <nooga> "dumbass"[2] is legal?
17:37:08 <ais523> it's broken by pretty much any optimizer settings on any compiler, but it works without optimization
17:37:32 <ais523> one of the weirder features of C is that [] is commutative
17:37:40 <ais523> if you're golfing, you can sometimes save a pair of parens like that
17:38:14 <ehird> "dumbass"[2] being legal is surprising why?
17:38:17 <ehird> that works in every language ever.
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17:39:28 <nooga> char* beh() ... beh()[] ?
17:40:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm does Funge-98 say anything about how standard IO is encoded?
17:40:46 <nooga> struct blah* beh() ... beh()->bla
17:41:06 <ehird> yay, ldc will be fixed "later today"
17:41:18 <Sgeo> ehird, [0, 1, 2][0] doesn't work in LSL
17:41:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and are you allowed to reflect on invalid encoding of IO? Like if program tries to output malformed UTF-8.
17:41:29 <ehird> LSL does not count as a language so much as an abomination.
17:41:31 <Sgeo> Nor does llGetPos().x
17:42:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, thing is, with Erlang R13B and later standard IO is defined to use Unicode. either unicode code points (for strings, which are cons-style lists of integers) or utf-8 (for binaries, which are basically byte arrays)
17:44:04 * nooga is wondering how to solve types in sadol to make it fast enough
17:47:31 <AnMaster> err, "Implementation unusualities" sounds like an odd section name for a README file....
17:48:04 <ehird> Implementation uselessities
17:48:09 <ehird> Or, "Implementation oddities"
17:48:22 <AnMaster> yeah "Implementation oddities" doesn't sound too bad.
17:48:22 <ehird> Or "Implementation curios", if you're a pretentious fuck.
17:49:09 <ais523> wow, C++0x has type inference
17:49:10 <pikhq> ais523, I suspect some of those things in your obfuscated C are just GNU C stuff.
17:49:24 <ais523> pikhq: nah, I want it to work on other compilers too
17:49:27 <pikhq> (I'm *pretty* sure that longjmp'ing into functions is legal in GNU C)
17:49:32 <pikhq> I said *some* things.
17:49:49 <ais523> if you think about it, it makes no sense
17:49:51 <pikhq> Eh, whatever. You're not trying to comply with any standards, so... ;)
17:50:05 <ais523> even more amusingly, gcc gives several warnings but they're all wrong
17:50:10 <ehird> ais523: c++0x has closures with lambda syntax
17:50:15 <ehird> and also optional GC iirc
17:50:19 <ehird> it's pretty bloated
17:50:24 <ehird> also, call it c++1x, that's what it will be
17:50:37 <ais523> someone on Slashdot said [](){}(); was legal C++0x, although not what it did
17:50:53 <ehird> [] prefix is the weird ass lambda syntax
17:51:28 <AnMaster> ais523, language question: "erlang add some env variables..." "..."by itself" or "...on it's own"
17:51:43 <pikhq> I'd complain about how much C++10 adds, but, well, it's C++. It's already a mess.
17:51:45 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what you mean
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17:51:58 <ais523> do you mean that there are environment variables added just by running Erlang that aren't there normally
17:51:58 <ehird> AnMaster: "adds some"
17:52:16 <ais523> I'd say "erlang adds some environment variables of its own", which means something slightly different but is clearer
17:52:16 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm trying to say that in efunge y won't show exactly the env variables you think it should, since erlang itself adds some vars as well as modifies PATH
17:52:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I just missed s there. I know it should be "adds".
17:53:33 <AnMaster> ais523, so for what I meant, which alternative is the best
17:54:14 <ehird> Heh, AMD has released a new processor... which is competitive with Intel's *last* range of processors, and still as thermally challenged as their last.
17:54:34 <ais523> AnMaster: "erlang adds some environment variables of its own"
17:54:43 <ais523> or just "adds some environment variables"
17:54:54 <AnMaster> ais523, "Erlang adds some environment variables of its own as well as modifies $PATH." ? Though that sounds slightly wrong.
17:55:15 <ehird> "Windows 7 Handwriting Recognition can handle equations and convert them to mathML" β omg I've wanted this for years.
17:55:22 <AnMaster> probably better to split it in two sentences.
17:55:45 <ais523> what, it doesn't convert them to the weird OOXML version of equations?
17:55:56 <ehird> http://blogs.msdn.com/blogfiles/e7/WindowsLiveWriter/InkInputandTablet_E2A5/clip_image014_thumb.jpg
17:55:59 <AnMaster> ais523, stop writing what I planed to say faster than me!
17:56:03 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaawesome
17:56:30 <ais523> the main problem with Windows nowadays is it's so awful as a dev environment
17:56:38 <ais523> for anything that isn't completely a Microsoft stack from top to bottom
17:57:22 <ais523> oh, and all the annoying notifications and dialogs
17:57:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I always found it faster to write it in the LaTeX notation for it than on paper with a pen. I suspect that is unusual though.
17:57:36 <ais523> and the freezes for no apparent reason, although that's much worse on a network than a home computer
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18:00:32 <AnMaster> what do you call the encoding of unicode using their code points. Not any UTF-*, just a list of code points.
18:01:00 <AnMaster> is it the same as UCS4 or not?
18:01:23 <AnMaster> um what about byte order then. hm
18:01:34 <ehird> unicode ends at 0x10FFFD
18:01:40 <ehird> so it's a bit less than 32 bits
18:02:27 <AnMaster> but this implies the program would output 4 bytes for each char it wanted to output?
18:02:47 <Deewiant> Just like UTF-16 outputs at least 2 bytes.
18:03:01 <ehird> Nobody uses utf-32.
18:03:07 <ehird> Because it's horribly unefficient.
18:03:09 <AnMaster> well that isn't what I meant then. I meant that each time , is used you should provide one unicode codepoint as the "parameter"
18:03:19 <Deewiant> It's handy for internal use, though.
18:03:21 <ehird> AnMaster: you're not saying anything meaningful
18:03:29 <Deewiant> It's much easier to work with a constant-width than a variable-width encoding.
18:03:43 <ehird> Deewiant: utf-8 is not that hard to deal with
18:03:56 <Deewiant> No, but you still have to deal with it.
18:03:57 <ehird> This is probably the easiest part of processing unicode anyway
18:03:59 <pikhq> ehird: It's harder than just indexing an array of ints.
18:04:03 <ehird> So it's a silly complaint
18:04:15 <Deewiant> Haskell, for instance, stores characters as essentially UTF-32.
18:04:40 <ais523> we have to move onto UTF-64!
18:04:50 <ais523> 64-bit is all the rage nowadays...
18:04:59 <lifthrasiir> ais523: so there will be surrogate-surrogate area?
18:05:02 <ais523> also, does anyone else here use uint_fast8_T for booleans?
18:05:02 <Deewiant> With 20-bit characters, it's a bit pointless. :-P
18:05:12 <ehird> ais523: but you can store two utf-32 characters in a utf-64 word!
18:05:27 <ehird> 64 bit actually uses less memory!!111
18:05:37 <ais523> there should be a uint_fast1_t...
18:05:40 <ehird> "my name is keiosha i was 7 but i am 8"
18:05:41 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8ff2p/keiosha/
18:07:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what I'm trying to do is come up with a way to describe that to output a β you would need to push 8961 then use ,
18:07:29 <AnMaster> rather than output it as utf-8 bytes-.
18:08:12 <Deewiant> "The input of , is a Unicode code point which is translated to UTF-8 for output"?
18:09:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I leave translation of it to erlang's standard io driver. The API docs state you should provide it as a list of unicode codepoints or some utf-8 encoded binaries. The former is easier for befunge since you get one char at a time.
18:10:26 <Deewiant> "The input of , is a Unicode code point which is translated to a platform-specific encoding for output"
18:10:48 <Deewiant> "The input of , is a Unicode code point which is encoded in a platform-specific way before being output"
18:12:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also providing an invalid code point will reflect in efunge. Like one out of range for unicode.
18:13:01 <ais523> what about one in the surrogate range/
18:13:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well since I reflect when I catch a badarg exception in the output code and erlang throws one of those for that range too it will reflect for that as well.
18:13:54 <AnMaster> assuming I remember correctly which one is that range
18:14:37 <AnMaster> yes that was the one I was thinking of.
18:14:46 <AnMaster> and yes it throws an exception
18:15:11 <AnMaster> > catch io:put_chars([16#d800]).
18:15:12 <AnMaster> {'EXIT',{badarg,[{io,put_chars,[<0.25.0>,unicode,[55296]]},
18:15:20 <ehird> http://www.intel.com/index.htm?iid=hdr+logo β hahaha wow look at that guy
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18:15:22 <AnMaster> %% some lines with backtrace skipped
18:15:29 <ehird> it's an inverted Intel ninja!
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18:16:19 <ehird> <!-- a (JavaScript) utility function has been included to facilitate the conversion -->
18:16:22 <ehird> <!-- once server-side generation is enabled, however, the links should instead point _back_ to this page -->
18:16:25 <ehird> <!-- but with the selected language loaded -->
18:16:27 <AnMaster> ehird, yes cleanrooms tends to invert ninjas
18:16:37 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah it's to prevent them being too sneaky
18:16:42 <ehird> and stealing the processors
18:17:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, plus it is hard to make sure there is no dust on the black clothes. It is supposed to be a *clean* room after all.
18:17:50 <ehird> nooga: can you just go away until you do anything other than vague, one-word, aborted attempts at pseudo-humour
18:18:16 * AnMaster wonders what nooga meant though.
18:18:23 <ehird> AnMaster: "an hero" is a 4chan meme.
18:18:40 <ehird> it means someone who killed themselves.
18:19:03 <ehird> Boring 4chan drama background that nobody gives a shit about: http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Mitchell_Henderson
18:19:17 <nooga> you see, my brain continues to melt, especially when i'm browsing /b/ using my new, shiny, macbook
18:19:33 <AnMaster> "a unicode codepoint" or "an unicode codepoint"
18:19:57 <ehird> nooga: i thought you agreed to go away
18:20:39 <AnMaster> doesn't "unicode" start with a vowel sound? The fact that "u" is vowel in Swedish doesn't help when I'm trying to think about this...
18:20:53 <ehird> u is a vowel in english too.
18:20:57 <Deewiant> No, it doesn't start with a vowel sound.
18:21:18 <Deewiant> Just like it's "a yew" and not "an yew"
18:21:20 <ehird> and y is a consonant
18:21:30 <ehird> Deewiant: JEW BUDDIES *hi5*
18:21:39 <ehird> (that was seriously unintentional I swear)
18:22:03 <nooga> a unicode sounds weird
18:23:03 <AnMaster> ehird, y is a vowel in Swedish too
18:23:16 <ehird> swedish is all vowels
18:23:18 <AnMaster> rather different sound (as you might expect)
18:24:33 <ehird> "vi(1) is for sluts?"
18:24:52 <nooga> AnMaster: tell him
18:25:16 <fizzie> sv:vi is en:we. It sounds rather the same.
18:25:40 <fizzie> Well, maybe "same" is not quite the word here.
18:27:18 <fizzie> Stop, end, quit, something like that.
18:28:20 <fizzie> Or "to close", I guess, too. Funny how they've overloaded it.
18:28:44 <ehird> moar like intercal
18:28:46 <ehird> operand overloading
18:28:49 <ehird> isn't that right ais523?
18:28:52 <fizzie> Er, I guess to close would be "sluter" in that verb-form.
18:28:54 <ehird> it's more like simultaneous operand overloading
18:29:03 <fizzie> But the base form is "sluta" for both still.
18:29:11 <ehird> AnMaster: we've been calling vi users sluts.
18:29:12 <ais523> I haven't been paying attention...
18:29:16 <AnMaster> nooga, vi slutar == we finishes/ends.
18:29:49 <ais523> "we finishes" is gramatically incorrect in English; was the original phrase gramatically incorrect too?
18:30:25 <AnMaster> nooga, that must me Norwegian or Danish
18:31:11 <nooga> min bror tallar svenska ;d
18:31:12 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Or "to close", I guess, too. Funny how they've overloaded it. <-- English "go" is very overloaded too
18:31:35 <AnMaster> it is all of Γ₯ka, gΓ₯, resa, cyckla + a lot more
18:32:17 <fizzie> Come to think of it, why *does* English do the verb differently in "I/you/we/they foo" and "he/she foos"? It's not like they'd have a habit of inflecting words.
18:32:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, backward compatibility.
18:32:36 <ais523> what other languages do for everything, English generally does in exactly one case
18:32:39 <ais523> just to confuse people
18:32:58 <ais523> just like "I was" -> "I were" is one of the few places in English where a word is different in the subjunctive
18:33:06 <AnMaster> ais523, Swedish doesn't do *that* one though. Not for verbs.
18:33:21 <ais523> French, Latin, and German all do
18:33:24 <AnMaster> not even the "s" stuff in third person.
18:33:26 <ais523> and that's most of the influences on English
18:33:36 <AnMaster> adjectives is of course a different matter.
18:33:41 <fizzie> But Finnish is not really a large influence on English, I guess.
18:33:54 <AnMaster> en rΓΆd bil, ett rΓΆtt hus (a red car, a red house)
18:34:11 <nooga> isn't tryck = press?
18:34:22 <nooga> i mean press (a button)
18:34:52 <AnMaster> nooga, well yes that is one of the meanings. you also have "tryckeri" == "a place that prints books, papers or whatever"
18:35:24 <AnMaster> nooga, also it has more overloaded meanings.
18:35:44 <AnMaster> tryck can be a verb, noun or adjective depending on context. Meaning different things.
18:36:10 <nooga> press = newspapers / to press / a machine / ...
18:36:12 <AnMaster> and I don't know how to translate the adjective one.
18:37:00 <nooga> how about..... vanlig vs ovanlig
18:37:11 <AnMaster> nooga, we also have "press", not exactly like English press, also with many meanings.
18:37:30 <AnMaster> and where did you get these phrases from?
18:37:40 <fizzie> You really should've generalized the o-prefix so that "oovanlig" would be again the same as "vanlig", and that you could apply it to exactly everything.
18:37:45 <nooga> i remember from sweden
18:37:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think I heard that as a joke
18:38:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, clearly same as ununcommon
18:38:39 <nooga> can I flycka <-> oflycka? ;d
18:38:51 <fizzie> Our negation prefix in that case is "epΓ€"; it's unwieldly long. Ununcommon would be "epΓ€epΓ€tavallinen".
18:39:07 <nooga> oh, i though that means a girl
18:39:38 <AnMaster> nooga, so you would use "ungirl" in English?
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18:40:36 <fizzie> Also unboy; never the non-prefixed words. Complexity is always a good thing.
18:40:47 <AnMaster> the prefix is only generally usable for adjectives in Swedish, some verbs too but not most verbs. You can use "un" on more verbs in English than in Swedish.
18:41:00 <ehird> "Ungirl yourself", meaning "You (a male-to-female transsexual), have another sex change back to male."
18:41:04 <ehird> The endless are possibilities!
18:41:19 <nooga> i just thought maybe since vanlig = animal and ovanling = monster? then oflicka would mean monster too ;d
18:41:38 <AnMaster> since when is "vanlig" == animal
18:42:07 <AnMaster> vanlig == common, ovanlig == uncommon
18:42:21 <nooga> things get clearer
18:42:43 <AnMaster> <nooga> how about..... vanlig vs ovanlig <AnMaster> nooga, "common vs uncommon"?
18:43:00 <nooga> didn't pay attention
18:43:11 <nooga> i was jerking off to my macbook
18:43:46 <fizzie> Well, if it's a white macbook, maybe it won't show so much.
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18:44:06 <ehird> 18:43 nooga: i was jerking off to my macbook
18:44:06 <ehird> 18:43 AnMaster: that sounds dirty
18:44:19 <ehird> "I'm wanna have sex with you. If you know what I mean."
18:45:32 <ehird> ais523: Cisco have released a server proxy hardware thing that just filters out spam and viruses
18:46:05 <ais523> that's what the "nothing else" would imply if taken literally
18:46:53 <ais523> sorry, writing technical Nomic judgements about scams atm, so I'm rather literal-minded
18:47:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't see any other interpretation than that one.
18:47:51 <ais523> AnMaster: that the proxy isn't designed to do anything other than spam or viruses, so it can't load-balance or cache, for instance
18:47:56 <AnMaster> the product has no other functions?
18:48:47 <ehird> that's what I meant
18:48:58 <ehird> ridiculous having a whole server just to do that
18:49:30 <AnMaster> ridiculous that you can't install both features on the same hardware server. But I guess they make more money that way...
18:51:41 <AnMaster> "Zero Width Non Breaking Space" .... huh (yes I know it is used for BOM in UTF-16 and such... but why not call it "Byte Order Mark" instead of a zero-width space...)
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18:54:12 <ehird> because it's a zero width non breaking space too?
18:54:24 <ehird> the BOM is purely incidental
18:55:07 <ais523> actually, they moved zero width nbsp to a different codepoint
18:55:13 <ais523> so that the old one could be used purely as a BOM
18:55:16 <ais523> IIRC, that is, I might be wrong
18:56:53 <AnMaster> what use is a zero width nbsp (apart from BOM)...
18:57:06 <AnMaster> I mean it does absolutely nothing as far as I can tell.
18:57:40 <AnMaster> Zero width breaking space I could see an use for, same for non-zero width non-breaking space.
18:57:58 <ehird> <AnMaster> I am ignorant of non-Latin languages.
18:58:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so how is zero width nbsp used. As far as I can tell it has absolutely no effect on output, in any script.
18:58:41 <ehird> IIRC, in Arabic it breaks the word up
18:58:48 <ais523> AnMaster: it prevents two consecutive letters forming a ligature
18:58:50 <ehird> if you have two words that should not be joined
18:58:55 <ehird> yeah, what ais523 said
18:58:58 <ais523> although they have zwj and zwnj specifically for that nowadays too
18:59:03 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, but aren't lugatures separate code points...
19:01:28 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm pretty sure some are at least: ο¬ ο¬
19:01:54 <ais523> but in some scripts, entire words are normally written joined-up
19:02:04 <ais523> and you don't have a ligature for every word in the language
19:02:30 <AnMaster> but you said "zwj and zwnj" were used for that
19:02:55 <AnMaster> so what use is zwnbs nowdays then
19:03:23 <ais523> traditionally NUL was used for that, but it's not the most obvious character for the purpose and that's kind-of hacky
19:03:34 <ais523> AnMaster: if your connection to a terminal's faster than it can physically print out text
19:03:44 <ais523> sometimes you have to slow down the connection by sending padding
19:04:06 <ehird> he said today, not in the 70s
19:04:09 <AnMaster> not relevant with modern technology though
19:04:19 <ais523> so? Unicode deals with everything
19:04:28 <ais523> Cunieform isn't modern technology either, it deals with that
19:04:31 <ehird> 19:04 Blah12309: ΓamsgΓ
19:04:34 <ehird> over and over again
19:04:43 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think there is one
19:04:46 <ehird> think he's trying to crash something
19:04:53 <ais523> there /is/ a UTF-5, isn't there, but it isn't Baudot-based
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19:05:03 <ais523> well, a 5-bit Unicode encoding, anyway, for URLs
19:05:05 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't know of that one
19:05:31 <ais523> yes, that's a common nickname for it
19:05:37 <ais523> UTF-9 was an April Fool's RFC
19:05:48 <ais523> but it's a sane enough format, just with few uses nowadays
19:05:56 <AnMaster> ais523, is punycode the thing with xn-- or whatever
19:07:41 <ehird> what're the open source Radeon linux drivers called?
19:07:47 <ehird> and do they have accel yet
19:08:03 <ais523> I don't know, and I don't know
19:08:07 <Deewiant> There's radeonhd and the other one
19:08:16 <ehird> Deewiant: apt-get install the other one
19:08:17 <ais523> Ubuntu's pretty good at finding drivers automatically IME
19:08:18 <Deewiant> radeonhd doesn't have accel, the other one does, I think
19:08:23 <ehird> ais523: yes, but it finds proprietary ones.
19:08:35 <ehird> It'd be nice to have a fully-accellerated open source driver.
19:08:36 <Deewiant> But the other one only supports older cards.
19:08:38 <ais523> it finds open-source ones if it can, and gives you the option to use proprietary instead
19:08:45 <ehird> Deewiant: so, no 4850? :<
19:09:02 <ehird> AnMaster: catalyst are ATI ones, closed source i think
19:09:09 <Deewiant> I've been doing just fine without accel for almost half a year now. :-p
19:09:23 <ehird> Deewiant: I want compiz
19:09:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I think they renamed or something at one point
19:09:39 <ehird> Deewiant: Sure I can, with fglrx.
19:09:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Not yet. I'm figuring out how much of my soul needs to be sold first.
19:09:58 <Deewiant> Does fglrx support compositing these days?
19:10:26 <ehird> Deewiant: Well. When I tried Kubuntu on this machine, which is a Radeon, I got fancy effects.
19:10:37 <ehird> This gfx card is -- lessee -
19:11:12 <Deewiant> ehird: That might be one which the other one supports.
19:11:23 <ehird> Catalyst 9.32009-03-27improved OpenGL composite support, last release to support pre X2xxx (pre DirectX10) Cards
19:11:45 <AnMaster> why would anyone want compiz, I mean it is the worst type of eye candy. All of what I have seen of it falls in the same category as the "make minimizing windows in OS X look like they are sucked into the dock by a vacuum cleaner"-effect (possible to turn that off luckily).
19:11:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I just want window shadows.
19:11:59 <AnMaster> or maybe all those screen shots are not representative of it.
19:12:04 <ehird> They help usability IME.
19:12:04 <ais523> AnMaster: for Expo, that's pretty helpful
19:12:14 <ehird> They help pick out windows and differenciating between them
19:12:18 <ais523> Compiz doesn't just have eyecandy, but also window-manager UI improvements
19:12:18 <ehird> Also: offloads work onto the GPU
19:12:23 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure you can get that anyway. I have a 1 px blakc shadow on this window I think
19:12:30 <ehird> That's not a shadow.
19:12:37 <ehird> That's a Windows 3.11 "Shadow"
19:12:42 <ais523> left alt, left shift, up shows all the windows so you can pick between them; Mac OS X had an equivalent idea first
19:12:59 <ehird> Expose tends to get less useful the more clutter you have IME
19:13:01 <ais523> but the Compiz implementation is better for me because works well using nothing but the keyboard
19:13:02 <ehird> I haven't used it for a year or so
19:13:08 <ehird> ais523: so does OS X's
19:13:09 <AnMaster> ais523, err I have seen the same thing without compiz actually
19:13:12 <ais523> ehird: I generally don't have all that much clutter
19:13:14 <ehird> F9, then left and right and up and down
19:13:20 <AnMaster> some app for KDE 3.x that didn't use compiz
19:13:27 <ais523> ehird: yes, F9's miles from the arrow keys
19:13:33 <ehird> Catalyst 8.52008-05-21Catalyst A.I., improved 2D performance, DKMS support in installer, Linux 2.6.25 support.
19:13:38 <ais523> alt-shift-up followed by arrows followed by letting go of alt-shift is so much faster
19:13:38 <ehird> Nowadays video drivers need AI built in.
19:13:52 <ehird> ais523: it's a good thing you can configure the hotkey
19:14:03 <ehird> admittedly, only to an F-key, or a left/right modifier key
19:14:09 <ehird> and the latter two are ridiculous to override
19:14:13 <ais523> is the return at the end customizable too?
19:14:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> F9, then left and right and up and down <-- err I'm quite sure it doesn't need that on os x either?
19:14:30 <ehird> ais523: use the hotkey.
19:14:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant to use expose only on the keyboard.
19:14:42 <ehird> Please PLEASE read context!
19:15:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I'm quite sure it is on OS X too. I used it on a ibook with 10.4 not long ago. using just one of the f-keys (forgot which)
19:15:28 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
19:15:31 <ehird> I WAS NOT FUCKING DISPUTING THAT
19:15:41 <ehird> I WAS GIVING INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO NAVIGATE IT WITH JUST THE KEYBOARD
19:15:41 <AnMaster> ok, what were the arrow keys for then
19:15:55 <ehird> "As of 2008-12, many issues still remain: Video playback occasionally has quality and stability problems, especially in Xine[7]. 2D benchmarks show that ATI cards using these drivers are two orders of magnitude slower than the competing NVIDIA cards in basic tasks such as text rendering[8], making even graphic consoles feel sluggish."
19:15:58 <ehird> β ok, fuck fglrx
19:16:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is what you get for selecting ATI...
19:16:38 <ehird> AnMaster: having to use another driver?
19:16:42 <ehird> HOW CAN I POSSIBLY COPE.
19:16:50 <AnMaster> does the other drive work well nowdays?
19:17:15 <ehird> one of the open source ones
19:17:31 <AnMaster> oh right you didn't find the name of it.
19:18:15 <ehird> The radeonhd driver, or xf86-video-radeonhd, is an X.org video driver for R500 and newer ATI graphics devices. It is being developed by the X11 community, currently centered around Novell and AMD, with the free documentation provided by AMD.
19:18:16 <ehird> The driver supports full modesetting (read: any mode is usable, not only those provided by the BIOS), and is compatible to RandR 1.3. Future work is happening especially on more advanced features like 2D, 3D, and video acceleration.
19:18:20 <ehird> more advanced features.
19:18:24 <ehird> like accelleration!
19:18:42 <Deewiant> Well, it isn't exactly basic either
19:18:54 <ehird> Deewiant: xf86-video-ati's first google result is a cgit repository viewer
19:19:12 <AnMaster> Available versions: 6.6.3 6.8.0-r1 6.12.1-r1 ~6.12.2 {debug dri}
19:19:12 <AnMaster> Homepage: http://xorg.freedesktop.org/
19:19:22 <ehird> "17 Apr 2009: AMD releases initial code branches for 3D support on R6xx/R7xx (see more below)"
19:19:35 <ehird> Does this mean that it's just got 3d support? :P
19:19:44 <Deewiant> Rather that the branches became public.
19:19:47 <ehird> R600/R700 class chips (Radeon HD 2300 β Radeon HD 4890):
19:19:47 <ehird> 2D: accelerated (EXA), a new feature (see radeon:r6xx_r7xx_branch)
19:19:48 <ehird> XVideo: accelerated and tear free, a new feature (see radeon:r6xx_r7xx_branch)
19:19:50 <ehird> 3D: experimental, development in two places simultaneously; mesa r6xx-r7xx-support, r6xx-rewrite, both need drm r6xx-r7xx-3d | instructions for usage at radeonhd:experimental_3D
19:19:56 <ehird> new feature and experimental
19:20:00 <AnMaster> ehird, check which model you have too
19:20:16 <ehird> (best one you can get fanless)
19:20:37 <AnMaster> ehird, is that better or worse than a geforce 7600
19:20:48 <ehird> AnMaster: 4850 is the third most powerful single gfx card that ati does
19:20:53 <ehird> 4850, 4870, 4890 (just released)
19:21:12 <ehird> so i'd probably guess better
19:21:24 <ehird> GeForce 7600 cards go head to head
19:21:24 <ehird> A multitude of mid-range options
19:21:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I strongly suspect you *will* have issues with getting that card to work well.
19:21:25 <ehird> by Geoff Gasior β 12:00 AM on June 9, 2006
19:21:31 <ehird> geforce 7600 was mid-range in 2006
19:21:41 <ehird> so... 4850 is better**a lot
19:21:59 <AnMaster> ehird, can it execute a infinite loop in less than 6 seconds!?
19:22:11 <ehird> unfortunately it does not come with a Cray
19:22:16 <ehird> i hear the 4890X2 will
19:22:36 <AnMaster> actually where is that "meme" from...
19:22:54 <ehird> A standard joke has been made about each generation's exemplar
19:22:55 <ehird> of the ultra-fast machine: "The Cray-3 is so fast it can
19:22:56 <ehird> execute an infinite loop in under 2 seconds!"
19:23:01 <ehird> from the 1996 jargon file, woe as I am to quote Raymond
19:23:08 <ehird> although that paragraph probably predates him
19:23:12 <ehird> raymond wasn't around for any of that shit :)
19:25:05 <ehird> 19:21 AnMaster: ehird, I strongly suspect you *will* have issues with getting that card to work well.
19:25:14 <ehird> i imagine i'll get it to do compiz fine, with some hiccups
19:25:20 <ehird> after all, i'm not buying this machine tomorrow
19:25:27 <ehird> and open source is light speed development, right? ;)
19:25:30 <ehird> Gracenotes: my condolences
19:25:36 <AnMaster> ehird, just don't claim it is Linux's fault if it doesn't work.
19:26:01 <ehird> AnMaster: it's linux's [drivers] faul
19:26:42 <ehird> "For R6xx and above there is also an ATIProprietaryDriver available, which is worse in many aspects but has better 3D performance and features. The proprietary driver included support for R3xx-R5xx GPUs until the March 2009 release. "
19:26:55 <ehird> the shitty shitty fglrx beats the experimental open source one
19:27:03 <AnMaster> ehird, rather it is the fault of the manufacture. If I make some piece of hardware, I wouldn't expect anyone else to write the needed drivers for talking to it for me.
19:27:04 <ehird> I don't even wanna consider how bad the opensource one must be!
19:27:18 <ehird> jooin us nowww and share the hardwaaaaaaaaaaare
19:27:27 <ehird> YOU'LL BE FREEEEE SILICONE YOU'LL BE FREEEEEEEEEE
19:27:53 <ehird> AnMaster: YOU HAVEN'T HEARD THE FREE SOFTWARE SONG?!
19:27:59 <ehird> IT IS RMS'S WORST MASTERPIECE!
19:28:08 <ehird> http://www.gnu.org/music/free-software-song.au
19:28:11 <ais523> interesting problem: can anyone here think of a decent way to bruteforce Rainbow Adjacencies in a reasonable length of time?
19:28:52 <ehird> AnMaster: don't, they might break.
19:29:29 <AnMaster> horrible sound quality in the recording....
19:29:38 <ehird> that's not the most horrible thing about it
19:29:57 <ehird> no, he just sings really badly
19:30:26 <ehird> (but that doesn't excuse its horribility, ofc)
19:30:31 <ehird> (just saying that's why it sounds like talking)
19:31:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I have heard songs in 2/4 3/4 and so on that was clearly singing.
19:31:29 <ehird> although it's more like shit/shit
19:31:38 <AnMaster> hm, I'm unable to detect any rythm at all
19:33:04 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, the place I'm getting it from offers ubuntu linux as an OS option; it would be rather odd if they sold a totally ubuntu incompatible gfx card with that.
19:33:30 <AnMaster> ehird, are you going to use ubuntu on it
19:33:44 <AnMaster> and if so, are you going to select it to be pre-installed
19:33:57 <ehird> because they charge $30 for it, the buggers
19:34:09 <ehird> and I need to do the freaky ssd LVM alignment stuff myself
19:34:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that makes me suspect it needs a lot of fiddling
19:34:24 <ehird> it's the same on all their pcs, AnMaster
19:34:31 <ehird> it makes me suspect they're profitable buggers. :)
19:34:52 <ehird> AnMaster: go on then, tell us the model, I know you can't wait to
19:35:36 <AnMaster> actually I think it is "BeyerDynamics"
19:35:40 <ehird> that's not particularly expensive
19:36:09 <AnMaster> ehird, not very cheap either. Plus currently the exchange rate for SEK sucks.
19:36:58 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have a soundcard?
19:37:05 <ehird> i'm trying to think of one reason to have a separate soundcard
19:37:33 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean I haven't mentioned it's hardware midi <exaggeration times> before?
19:37:45 <AnMaster> and yes I have an old SB Live! 5.1 PCI card.
19:37:51 <ehird> Soundblaster live.
19:38:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what about it? It works well.
19:38:06 <Deewiant> MIDI eats up CPU unless your sound card can do it
19:38:22 <Deewiant> ehird: It's better than anything that comes on a motherboard, though.
19:38:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err cpu isn't as much of an issue really.
19:38:42 <ehird> Apparently SoundBlaster drivers are shit on linux.
19:39:09 <Deewiant> 01:00.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc HD48x0 audio
19:39:17 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, nice.
19:39:22 <ehird> So I can use my 4850 as a sound card?
19:39:28 <AnMaster> I hate other activity causing MIDI to suddenly pause.
19:39:32 <Deewiant> I have no idea if there's any point in it.
19:39:35 <ehird> Deewiant: That sounds nice.
19:39:47 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, you said anything's better than mobo soundcards :P
19:39:59 <Deewiant> No, I said the SBLive! was. :-P
19:40:02 <AnMaster> ehird, http://rafb.net/p/FC6hs393.html
19:40:14 <Deewiant> Although I think there are some mobos with "good" sound cards on them.
19:40:30 <ehird> ADIΒ AD2000B 8-Channel High Definition Audio CODEC
19:40:30 <Deewiant> I.e. codecs in the hardware and such.
19:40:31 <ehird> Support Jack-Detection, Multi-Streaming, and Front Panel Jack-Retasking
19:40:33 <ehird> Coaxial / Optical S/PDIF out ports at back I/O
19:40:42 <ehird> It says codec, at least.
19:40:57 <ehird> 00:0f.1 IDE interface: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT82C586A/B/VT82C686/A/B/VT823x/A/C PIPC Bus Master IDE (rev 06)
19:41:16 <Deewiant> 03:00.0 IDE interface: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88SE6121 SATA II Controller (rev b1)
19:41:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I have both PATA and SATA on this.
19:41:32 <ehird> Wooooow. PATA. Memories.
19:41:55 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be a waste to throw away the old pata disk, it can be useful still.
19:42:13 <ehird> Apparently the open source driver's rating for Compiz on the 4850
19:42:19 <ehird> 's R700 chipset is "PLATINUM".
19:42:25 <ehird> Which is meant to be quite good.
19:42:34 -!- nooga has joined.
19:42:41 <AnMaster> ehird, it may need fiddling though.
19:42:42 <ehird> There's a "GARBAGE" rating on one of them.
19:43:08 <Deewiant> I think this is my first computer with nothing in PATA except the floppy drive.
19:43:11 <ehird> Deewiant: wut driver ur uzing
19:43:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, whatever that thing is that they use which is like an ATA cable but smaller.
19:44:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, It isn't ATA at at all iirc.
19:44:36 <AnMaster> I don't remember the name though
19:44:50 <ehird> I guess xf86-video-ati or fglrx are my best bets.
19:45:05 <Deewiant> I doubt -ati will work with such a new card
19:45:12 <ehird> R600/R700 class chips (Radeon HD 2300 β Radeon HD 4890):
19:45:12 <ehird> 2D: accelerated (EXA), a new feature (see radeon:r6xx_r7xx_branch)
19:45:14 <ehird> XVideo: accelerated and tear free, a new feature (see radeon:r6xx_r7xx_branch)
19:45:15 <ehird> 3D: experimental, development in two places simultaneously; mesa r6xx-r7xx-support, r6xx-rewrite, both need drm r6xx-r7xx-3d | instructions for usage at radeonhd:experimental_3D
19:45:18 <ehird> I beg to differ, sir.
19:45:30 <ehird> I experimentally beg to differ!
19:45:43 <ehird> Deewiant: http://www.x.org/wiki/radeon
19:45:43 <Deewiant> Given the pointer to radeonhd at the end I thought it was radeonhd
19:46:13 <ehird> "The driver is relatively mature and does perform quite well for professional OpenGL applications. Some gaming applications do work reasonably nice, some others might still expose some minor or major problems. 2D performance is below of what the open source DRI drivers do provide, but is still acceptable fast for everyday work. The set of drivers still is bound to XFree86 4.0.0 and X.Org 6.7.0, but might get updated to be compatible with the latest X.Org
19:46:15 <ehird> release. Further updates and inclusion of GLSL are expected for one of the very next releases."
19:46:27 <ehird> So fglrx is better at 2D, radeon is better at 3D, and all are shit-slow at everything.
19:46:45 <AnMaster> ehird, btw the sound in these headphones is crystal clear, oh and they are roubust. My old headphones (very good sound quality) broke some days ago. And constructed so you couldn't repair them basically. These ones are "all user serviceable parts" basically.
19:46:45 <ehird> It's *almost* enough to make me go nvidia.
19:46:57 <Deewiant> Just try all three and pick one.
19:47:15 <Deewiant> ehird: "For R6xx and above there is also an ATIProprietaryDriver available, which is worse in many aspects but has better 3D performance and features."
19:47:24 <ehird> Deewiant: Great, the wiki is contradictory.
19:47:39 <nooga> i suppose i don't think so
19:47:40 <AnMaster> all you need is a common screwdriver (flat head) + the part number to order a spare.
19:48:05 <ehird> Heh, the best fanless card the endpcnoise guys offer is the Asus EN9600GT; which appears to be a low-end thingy.
19:48:14 <ehird> Fanless nvidia, that is
19:48:33 <Deewiant> ehird: Where do you get that radeon is better than fglrx at 3D
19:48:55 <ehird> Deewiant: They said fglrx is better at 2D than radeon, I assumed the "2D" was intentional
19:49:11 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have mentioned my SB Live before, why did you go all "wow old" over it.
19:49:15 <Deewiant> You read too much into these things :-P
19:49:18 <ehird> But... "As of 2008-12, many issues still remain: Video playback occasionally has quality and stability problems, especially in Xine[7]. 2D benchmarks show that ATI cards using these drivers are two orders of magnitude slower than the competing NVIDIA cards in basic tasks such as text rendering[8], making even graphic consoles feel sluggish."
19:49:25 <ehird> It doesn't really inspire confidence.
19:49:40 <ehird> That's from 2007-02
19:49:55 <ehird> "HD 2xxx (R600) and new driver codebase with big performance improvements.[1] "
19:49:58 <AnMaster> ehird, "As of 2008-12" == "<ehird> That's from 2007-02"
19:50:04 <ehird> the benchmark linked
19:50:06 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:50:17 <ehird> But as I said: "HD 2xxx (R600) and new driver codebase with big performance improvements.[1]"
19:50:33 <ehird> http://ati.cchtml.com/show_bug.cgi?id=7#c24
19:50:37 <AnMaster> ehird, you may need to use svn/cvs/whatever versions of the drivers then
19:50:49 <ehird> It was improved 2007-09.
19:50:53 <ehird> The last release was THIS MONTH.
19:51:04 <ehird> AnMaster: And it's closed source.
19:51:10 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, didn't you say before it got 3D 17 April or something
19:51:12 <ehird> I don't think you can get "svn" versions of closed source drivers.
19:51:23 <AnMaster> or are you talking about different drivers
19:51:26 <ehird> and no, it got *improved* OpenGL composite support 2009-03-27
19:51:33 <ehird> it got opengl 3 support on 2009-01-29
19:51:43 <ehird> and I'm assuming it supported 3d a lot before all that
19:51:47 <ehird> "Catalyst A.I., improved 2D performance, DKMS support in installer, Linux 2.6.25 support. "
19:51:55 <ehird> So I guess the 2D/3D performance is fine these days
19:52:01 <ehird> Maybe the AI improved it for them
19:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, you do a lot of 3D I guess?
19:52:21 <ehird> They have x86_64 versions too, yay
19:52:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Not neccessarily; but why would I get a 4850 and then use it as a slow 2D card? :-P
19:52:46 <ehird> That would be remarkably wasteful.
19:53:08 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, but it would be rather impractical to not be able to do any 2D tasks due to them being wasteful
19:53:18 <AnMaster> you would need to write a 3D irc client for example
19:53:38 * ehird evaporates a couch
19:53:44 <ehird> On screen: A COUCH APPEARS AND EVAPORATES
19:53:49 <ehird> ais523: "Second IRC"
19:54:24 <ehird> Hmm, Ubuntu's fglrx version is A LITTLE BEHIND
19:54:28 <Deewiant> ehird: http://wiki.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature comparing the last two columns, it seems the choice is fairly arbitrary :-P
19:54:48 <Deewiant> It's Debian, what do you expect?
19:54:50 <ehird> 8.6 was released 2008-06
19:54:55 <ehird> Deewiant: Ubuntu is generally more cutting edge.
19:55:49 <ehird> YAY, The fglrx driver thing can make .debs
19:55:55 <ehird> So that's very all okay then
19:59:58 <AnMaster> anyway other 3D apps you would need:
20:01:23 <ehird> Less pronouncable.
20:01:38 <AnMaster> yes I guess the devs would consider that a drawback with that name
20:01:56 <ehird> More like awesomeback
20:01:59 <AnMaster> zshgl sounds better than glzsh I think...
20:02:32 <AnMaster> ehird, no they aren't esoteric, they are interested in serious people using their products. A name that is easy to remember is a good thing then.
20:02:43 <AnMaster> hm what other apps would you use.
20:02:53 <ehird> zsh is not very serious.
20:03:02 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you plan to use for your typographyfilia
20:03:04 <ehird> The elements float around the page.
20:03:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Typophilia.
20:03:25 <ehird> Umm, I don't think X's very typographical.
20:03:42 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't taht eb soneone ttat worte liek thiis
20:03:56 <AnMaster> ehird, typo as in spelling error
20:04:41 <AnMaster> anyway that is why Typophilia isn't a good name, too easy to misunderstand.
20:04:56 <ehird> Meaningless ,but memorable
20:05:56 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, there is always TeX. Now you need a 3D variant of it.
20:06:11 <ais523> ehird: it's not meaningless, it means a love of typos
20:06:17 <nooga> God I hate dutch accent in english
20:06:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well what would you use for typography stuff then.
20:06:43 <ehird> Typographing isn't an activity in itself...
20:07:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, stuff like micro-typography and what not.
20:07:19 <ehird> I'm not obsessed down to the micro level.
20:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, optically straight margins
20:07:44 <ehird> I'd use xetex if I wanted to write a book
20:08:00 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you need to develop 3D typography now
20:08:20 <AnMaster> and then I don't mean that "wordart" thing in Office 97
20:08:33 <ehird> AnMaster: remember the windows gltext screensaver?
20:08:45 <ehird> it was 3d text (just 2d text with some depth), that batted around the screen
20:08:51 <ehird> clearly, we must make 3d books on the same principle
20:08:59 <ehird> House of Leaves will never be the same again
20:09:00 <AnMaster> ah yes, it displayed the current time didn't it
20:09:05 <ehird> you could set what it displayed
20:09:08 <ehird> current time or constant string
20:09:25 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Leaves
20:09:32 <ehird> AnMaster: tl;dr: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/HouseOfLeavesPage134.gif
20:10:09 <nooga> 3d typography should glue graphens into little cubes casted on the paper plane
20:10:22 <ehird> AnMaster: -post-post-post-post-pre-modern
20:10:35 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it got so far the word "modern" is no longer in it.
20:11:28 <ehird> I want to read finnegan's wake sometime
20:11:28 <Deewiant> Footnotes containing footnotes for the win
20:11:31 <AnMaster> it is just post-post. As in "after after"
20:11:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually that I have seen in plain post-modern
20:12:04 <nooga> apple waapl gwwap uggwa kuugw ikkug
20:12:07 <ehird> Deewiant: One of the early discworld novels has a page that's 3 or 4 lines of actual text, then a few gigantic footnotes
20:12:23 <ehird> Deewiant: *Wake too.
20:12:34 <Deewiant> ehird: Yeah, I was more about the apostrophe.
20:12:42 <ehird> You accidentally the more.
20:12:46 <ehird> About the apostraphe.
20:12:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes and Disworld books have nested footnotes sometime
20:12:59 <ehird> http://www.trentu.ca/faculty/jjoyce/fw-3.htm
20:13:05 <ehird> Finnegans Wake, online.
20:13:12 <Deewiant> I imagine they would, Pratchett writes that way
20:13:12 <ehird> (Revolutionary, indeed.)
20:13:56 <nooga> once i've met Pratchett
20:13:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ehird Consider the books by Jasper Fforde. Where sometimes the main *story* takes place in the foot notes. Oh and they use the footnotes as a phone system.
20:14:11 <ehird> AnMaster: I want a book that's just footnotes
20:14:19 <Deewiant> Gutenberg has Ulysses, but not Finnegans Wake
20:14:20 <ehird> Something happened.[1][2]
20:14:24 <ehird> [1]It happened at 3am.[3]
20:14:30 <ehird> [2]It was[4] interesting.
20:14:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> Something happened.[1][2][citation needed]
20:14:38 <ehird> [3]Rather early, you[7] might say[3].
20:14:43 <ehird> [4]For some values of "was".
20:14:46 <ehird> So on, for the whole book
20:15:17 <AnMaster> ehird, the last foot note should end with [citation needed]. Or maybe loop back to the first one.
20:17:00 <ehird> [1013]Which was the most interesting thing about the thing that happened[1][2].
20:17:05 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Strange_&_Mr_Norrell had some huge foot notes spanning 4 or 5 pages iirc.
20:17:15 <AnMaster> ehird, something like that yes.
20:18:27 <AnMaster> ehird, or maybe more like "[1013]Blah blah (all loose ends have been neatly handled in the story by this point). Then suddenly... something happened[1]."
20:18:40 <AnMaster> make sure it is the same time of day of course
20:18:56 <ehird> AnMaster: maybe one of the footnotes in the middle should idly reference that time was proved to be circular
20:19:13 <AnMaster> I was considering "circular time" yes.
20:19:23 -!- MigoMipo has left (?).
20:31:55 * ehird orders some shiny Ubuntu CDs
20:32:13 <ehird> http://shop.canonical.com/images/904_3D_ubuntu_wallet_disc.jpg β prettiest cd packaging ever
20:32:31 <Slereah> ehird : It looks like a cheap wallpaper
20:33:17 <ais523> atm I don't even have a desktop background image
20:33:21 <ais523> I'm just using gratuated colour
20:33:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm using a single uniform colour
20:33:50 <ehird> ais523: what cols?
20:33:56 <AnMaster> used the same for, uh... 4 years I think
20:33:57 <ais523> dark reddish purple and dark bluish purple
20:34:24 <Deewiant> Mine is all-black, I never see it anyway
20:34:34 <ehird> You people and your darkness.
20:34:36 <ais523> Deewiant: you pirated Vista?
20:34:36 <ehird> Well, apart from AnMaster.
20:34:55 <ais523> but it has a black background, therefore it's a pirated version of Vista
20:35:05 <AnMaster> guess what colour/pattern the walls in this room is
20:35:25 <Deewiant> ais523: Is this a reference to something?
20:35:40 <ehird> Linux is an illegal pirated Vista version made by Linyos Torovoltos
20:35:41 <AnMaster> hint: it is same as the ceiling
20:35:42 <ais523> in Windows Vista, if you pirate it, the desktop background is set to all-black every 10 minutes or so
20:35:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Ultraviolet
20:36:09 <ais523> one theory as to why is so that Microsoft can spot pirated versions via screenshots
20:36:24 <AnMaster> floor is some kind of greenish though
20:36:27 <ais523> and yet it's subtle enough that it doesn't put off legit users whose computers are detected as pirated by mistake
20:36:35 <ehird> AnMaster: what is the floor
20:36:38 <Deewiant> I don't think that makes much sense
20:36:52 <ais523> well, they must do it for some reason
20:36:58 <ais523> ofc lots of people set their desktop to black deliberately
20:37:07 <Deewiant> And all pirated Vistas I've seen don't have that "problem". :-P
20:37:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it is the area of a room that is during normal operation "down"
20:37:35 <ehird> ais523: Konversation is gone in Kubuntu 9.04
20:37:44 <ehird> ais523: Replaced by Quassel http://people.ubuntu.com/~jriddell/9.04-release/quassel40.png
20:37:46 <ehird> AnMaster: what material
20:37:48 <ehird> you said light green
20:37:59 <ais523> I'm very amused at the way it's done on a timer, rather than just making changing it from black impossible
20:38:05 <AnMaster> Not sure that is the right English word
20:38:09 <ais523> ehird: I'm not too surprised, given that Konversation is KDE3
20:38:30 <ehird> this room has a shitty carpet floor
20:38:43 <ehird> and I mean shitty as in crap, not as in faeces -- oh, wait.
20:38:48 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, this room might be some plastic thingy rather than linoleum.
20:38:53 <ehird> um, as in rubbish.
20:38:56 <AnMaster> most other rooms are linoleum though.
20:39:00 <ehird> whereby I mean not rubbish, but bad.
20:39:24 <AnMaster> and the other rooms are some greyish colour for the floor.
20:39:43 <AnMaster> and there I'm sure it is linoleum.
20:39:47 * ehird concludes that Kubuntu 9.04 is kind of naff compared to Ubuntu
20:40:10 <ehird> I love British slang words for rubbish
20:40:13 <ehird> NAFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
20:40:47 <ehird> The ubuntu cds are 32 bit
20:41:08 <AnMaster> and also, why not get the iso yourself
20:41:17 <ehird> I haven't made an order; you just can't buy 64 bit CDs
20:41:21 <AnMaster> that's what I usually do for nix. Saving costs for them and so on.
20:41:25 <ehird> And because I might as well get the fancy packaging :P
20:41:53 <ehird> Plus it supports Ubuntu.
20:42:15 <AnMaster> ehird, environmentally that is bad. What is the CO2 footprint for the shipping and the paper thingy
20:42:30 <AnMaster> compared to some cd-r you happen to have around somewhere.
20:42:45 <AnMaster> (I don't believe you don't have any blank cd-r lying around somewhere)
20:42:48 <ehird> AnMaster: The CD has already been manufactured, see.
20:42:58 <ehird> Just like how not eating animals won't suddenly stop them being killed.
20:43:02 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but it hasn't already been shipped has it.
20:43:02 <ais523> I have a Feisty CD that's never been opened
20:43:05 <ais523> it came with the laptop
20:43:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude, I'm shipping a power-hungry PC (if I ran it under load a long time, that is) from America.
20:43:29 <ais523> and it's still in its plastic wrapping
20:43:41 <ehird> Not buying an Ubuntu CD would be like not stomping on someone's head after you knock them out.
20:43:44 <ais523> my laptop was shipped from Ireland, I think
20:44:14 <ehird> ais523: what company?
20:44:16 <ais523> also, is AnMaster really a dude? By any definition of the word?
20:44:20 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes it would in the long term reduce the number of animals killed. Since the producers won't be able to sell as many. And having to throw away the meat is a waste of money they will try to reduce the production to fit the market demands.
20:44:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, if millions of people suddenly stopped eating meat.
20:44:44 <ehird> ais523: My use of "dude" is restricted to "... Seriously?"
20:45:01 <ehird> "A dude is an individual, typically male, particularly somebody well dressed or who has never lived outside a big city"
20:45:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you well dressed?
20:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not a vegetarian, but I only by locally produced food.
20:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on for what. I'm not dressed for the Nobel feast or such if that is what you mean
20:45:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, let's say yes. Have you ever lived outside a big city?
20:46:00 <AnMaster> I have never lived in a "big" city.
20:46:11 <ehird> Well, you're a half-dude.
20:46:19 <ais523> I've always lived in Birmingham, which is about 1 million people
20:46:36 <AnMaster> ehird, jeans, t-shirt, jumper/sweater/"whatever the word was" made of wool
20:46:37 <ehird> I've lived in... hmm. A lot of places.
20:46:51 <ehird> Let's see what I can remember...
20:46:58 <ais523> and now you live in Hexham, which is famous although its residents deny it
20:47:19 <ehird> Born in hemel hempstead (sp)... somewhere or another for a while... west pelton... prudhoe... and hexham
20:47:24 <AnMaster> ehird, large town means 20 000 inhabitants here btw.
20:47:24 <ais523> AnMaster: like a jumper, but with buttons
20:47:32 <ehird> Prudhoe twice, first time when I was ... 3?
20:47:33 <AnMaster> ais523, it does not have buttons
20:47:38 <ehird> So I don't really remember much before that
20:47:47 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the issue is that UK and US words are different iirc. And I mix them up.
20:48:04 <ais523> jumper's UK, I hardly hear sweater so maybe it's US
20:48:56 <AnMaster> interesting. When I turn on the fluorescent (sp?) lamp here I hear a buzz in some speakers connected to a turned off device.
20:49:25 <ais523> at 50 hertz, by any chance
20:49:28 <AnMaster> I mean, I have heard that when with fluorescent (sp?) lamps when device was *turned on*
20:49:44 <ais523> I know working on light sensors before, I've got them to pick up the 50 Hz fluctuation in flourescent (sp?) lamp brightness
20:49:48 <AnMaster> ais523, quite possible. Don't have any tool to measure with.
20:49:54 * ais523 suspects fluorescent is indeed right
20:50:11 <ais523> with a coil of wire, you can pick up nearby mains frequencies using induction
20:50:16 <ehird> The funnest thing about computer fans / well, or any fans
20:50:22 <AnMaster> turned off speakers, turned off device. And actually both are even unplugged.
20:50:31 <ehird> Is that if two are almost-but-not-quite the same speed, you get a loud beat every now and then
20:50:43 <ehird> Which is rather obvious
20:50:45 <ehird> But still irritating
20:51:02 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed obvious. Interference (sp?)
20:51:31 <AnMaster> ais523, so what to do to reduce the noise...
20:51:43 <AnMaster> turning off the lamp is not an option, too dark then
20:51:44 <ais523> AnMaster: put them in a metal cage
20:51:50 <nooga> oh no, now facebook states tham i'm swedish instead of japanese
20:51:59 <AnMaster> ais523, can you shield the cable or something
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20:52:17 <ais523> it's probably the light itself and the speakers themselves that are coupling, though
20:52:44 <AnMaster> ais523, putting either in metal case would be.... impractical to say the least.
20:53:21 <AnMaster> for the lamp: desk mounted lamp, on an adjustable arm thingy.
20:53:45 <AnMaster> for the speakers... well they are on the desk too. I had both for years.
20:53:54 <AnMaster> only today this issue started.
20:54:03 <AnMaster> it worked when placed the same way before.
20:54:21 <AnMaster> that makes no sense. And yes the noise does go away when I turn off the lamp.
20:55:30 <AnMaster> ais523, strange... if I put anything grounded *next to* the speakers (a few cm away) the sound goes away
20:55:43 <ais523> AnMaster: ah, it's picking up most of the signal, then
20:56:13 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but it is like this: (grounded thing) (speaker) (lamp)
20:56:23 <AnMaster> well without line break (if that happened in your client)
20:56:34 <ais523> so? putting metal anywhere nearby really messes with electromagnetic signals
20:57:38 <AnMaster> I'm standing about half a meter away. If touch something grounded the sound goes away.
20:57:52 <AnMaster> I'm further away from the speakers than the lamp
20:58:25 <AnMaster> the grounded thing I touched was the metal case of the computer.
20:58:48 <ais523> AnMaster: you really don't want me to go into the details
20:58:56 <ais523> I can't remember them all, and you spend /years/ learning about them
20:59:26 <AnMaster> ais523, seems strange that me touching the pc case far away from the lamp *and* the speakers make the noise go away though.
20:59:39 <ais523> you changed the resonances in the environment
20:59:53 <ais523> obviously something in the way that the metal around there was arranged either amplified or focused the signal
21:00:02 <AnMaster> ais523, guess so. So I guess something else recently changed the resonances to make this noise issue happen
21:00:56 -!- Judofyr_ has joined.
21:01:38 <ehird> 20:57 mib_uq9m6s: hello all!
21:01:38 <ehird> 20:57 mib_uq9m6s: thegoldsnitch: would you like to increase your potence?
21:01:40 <ehird> 20:58 thegoldsnitch: mib_uq9m6s: do you know who employs Slava Pestov?
21:01:41 <ehird> 20:58 mib_uq9m6s: thegoldsnitch: never let your woman down with this formula!
21:01:44 <ehird> 20:58 thegoldsnitch: mib_uq9m6s: is that a yes or a no?
21:01:46 <ehird> 20:58 mib_uq9m6s: thegoldsnitch: increase female oorgaaasm
21:01:48 <ehird> 20:58 thegoldsnitch: slava: i think you have a spammer in your channel. fix it.
21:01:49 <ehird> 20:58 mib_uq9m6s: thegoldsnitch: a breakthrough in medical science!
21:01:51 <ehird> battle of the trolls
21:02:47 <ais523> mib_uq9m6s is obviously a bot
21:03:00 <ais523> thegoldsnitch probably isn't, though
21:03:19 <ehird> thegoldsnitch has been trolling for ages
21:03:27 <AnMaster> ais523, interesting. Straightening out a loop on the unplugged power cable of the speakers helped.
21:03:29 <ehird> the mib_ is a joker, counter-trolling them
21:03:43 <AnMaster> in such a case I guess a shielded cable *would* help after all
21:03:54 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, loops are one of the things that has the biggest effect on resonances in anything
21:04:06 <ais523> so much so that just by winding a wire into a coil, it can set fire to something when it's turned off
21:04:11 <ais523> in theory, anyway, and only when using DC
21:04:23 <ais523> I'm sure it's been done in the lab, but it rarely comes up in practice
21:04:29 <fizzie> Yay, I just stitched together my first panorama-style image: http://zem.fi/g2/d/5866-3/panorama.jpg -- I had a hunch that open-sourcey panorama-creation tools would be hellishly unuserfriendly, but this "hugin" frontend wasn't that bad. Too bad the image contents are the boring.
21:04:55 <ehird> fizzie: http://uk.lge.com/download/product/L/L246WH/l246wh_1213086606192_m.jpg what's the dip on the bottom-right?
21:05:37 <AnMaster> ais523, it was even not a coil, just a loop that wasn't even "flat" (meaning it was several cm of air between the cable where it crossed itself.
21:05:54 <ais523> yes, a coil's like a loop but much worse
21:06:07 <Deewiant> fizzie: If I went over that carefully would I find a discontinuity?
21:06:21 <fizzie> ehird: Well, it's a vaguely triangle-shaped... outdentation? There's a "V"-shaped (but pretty flat) power led (orange on standby, blue on on) thing there.
21:06:31 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I know. We had to build an electrical engine in school many years ago. The coil bit was tedious
21:06:40 <ehird> fizzie: that seems to be it
21:06:47 <ehird> can it be flattened :P
21:06:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: I assume so, although it's blended them pretty nicely. I cropped the close-in-front parts that were obviously wrong-looking.
21:07:36 <fizzie> ehird: Er, well, I don't think there's any important electronics in there, so... yes, if you want to do violence to your monitor, I guess.
21:07:37 <Deewiant> If the original image areas were overlapping I guess there wouldn't be any
21:07:52 <Deewiant> Unless the angles were very messed up
21:08:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's supposed to auto-correct image exposure and blend them nicely. And the image is pretty blurry and vague, anyway.
21:08:49 <fizzie> Oh, and do something to the lens-related distortion too.
21:09:05 <fizzie> At least it wanted to know things about it.
21:10:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think you want to do that, 1) void waranty 2) removing the LED fizzie said was there would probably mess up the electronics, you don't want to know what mixing up two resistors with different resistance in a circuit diagram may result in...
21:10:59 <fizzie> Yes, well, you can replace the LED with something. I wouldn't start hacking at it, anyway.
21:11:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: There were tracks in front in the snow that appeared in multiple pictures which did not really overlap well since I mostly gave it control points in the horizon (and anyway it would've probably required rather curious image-transformations), those were rather discontinuitific.
21:11:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, replacing it with an identical LED would be a good idea.
21:11:48 <ais523> incidentally, I've been using an unusual indentation style for my C recently
21:11:54 <ehird> it's the v that bothers me
21:11:54 <ais523> I call it "the other true brace style"
21:12:13 <AnMaster> ehird, http://uk.lge.com/download/product/L/L246WH/l246wh_1213086606192_m.jpg is too low res to be able to see.
21:12:16 <ais523> it puts { on the same line as the opening of a loop, as in while(x) {
21:12:21 <ais523> and } on the last line of the block
21:12:33 <ais523> so it's like python in that the left margin follows the code exactly
21:12:37 <ehird> AnMaster: i have large versions
21:12:41 <ais523> and like Lisp in that you stack lots of closing } at the end
21:12:48 <ais523> it saves a lot of vertical space
21:12:56 <ehird> AnMaster: lge.com, uk, l246wh
21:13:05 <ais523> IMO, it makes more sense than 1tbs, where the closing }s are out of place to my eyes
21:13:15 <AnMaster> ehird, the linked picture was *low* res
21:13:21 <nooga> in sadol there is no closing )
21:13:30 <ehird> AnMaster: its a download on the site.
21:13:44 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you link to it...
21:13:52 <ehird> i would but brb β
21:13:54 <AnMaster> I assume with download you mean "pdf" or something
21:14:03 <AnMaster> ais523, why that indention style
21:14:17 <AnMaster> ais523, and can astyle or indent handle it
21:14:22 <ais523> AnMaster: because I'm used to typing { on the same line as the opening block now for Perl
21:14:35 <ais523> and I decided I may as well go the same way, 1tbs is ridiculously uglily asymmetrical
21:14:48 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and? I type { on same. And } else {
21:15:08 <AnMaster> but other than those } is on separate
21:15:27 <ais523> yes, separate } takes up some much space in a useless part of the program
21:15:36 <ais523> the close of a loop isn't very interesting, especially not to take up vertical space!
21:15:38 <AnMaster> like (struct foo ){ .x = x, .y = y }
21:15:44 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:15:51 <AnMaster> like (struct foo) { .x = x, .y = y }
21:16:20 <AnMaster> if there is a space after a (cast) or not depends.
21:16:59 <nooga> (struct foo) {.x=x,.y=y} ?
21:17:04 <AnMaster> #define vector_create_ref(a, b) (& (funge_vector) { .x = (a), .y = (b) })
21:17:19 <AnMaster> and no this is quite different from statement expression
21:17:20 <Deewiant> Surely you don't need the brackets there?
21:17:56 <ais523> Deewiant: you can't pass an unparenthesised comma expression as an argument to a macro anyway
21:18:07 <Deewiant> Yes, I was just about to type that I realized that
21:18:13 <AnMaster> anyway it is usually a good idea to use ()
21:18:15 <Deewiant> So now I'm wondering whether they're necessary again
21:18:20 <ais523> C injection, obviously
21:18:36 <ais523> does anything have lower priority than =?
21:18:39 <AnMaster> ais523, mostly it helps when you want to do unusual stuff.
21:18:56 <Deewiant> Even if there's another = it'll work
21:18:57 <AnMaster> and it's a good habit, unless you are going to use ## or #
21:20:11 <Deewiant> I'm just wondering whether they're necessary in this case
21:20:24 <AnMaster> nooga, anyway yes it is C. Check your copy of the C99 spec.
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21:21:00 <fizzie> You can also check GCC's "Compound Literals" info-page.
21:21:02 <nooga> now my compiler became a translator, trivial translator
21:21:18 <Deewiant> Compilers are all trivial translators
21:21:22 <fizzie> Used to be GCC extension before the C99 thing.
21:21:26 <Deewiant> It's just the degree of triviality that matters
21:21:35 <Deewiant> s/matters/varies/ is what I meant
21:21:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: Is it "by definition trivial, since a computer can do it"?
21:23:39 <nooga> but still i need to solve type inference to avoid using one universal type with all this bloated rtti and unions and such
21:23:54 <nooga> and write fast run-time lib
21:25:42 <AnMaster> * needing to call another macro to stringify a #define. Two other ones in fact.
21:26:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does that work...
21:26:23 <nooga> do {} while(0) is useful
21:26:27 <fizzie> Hey, GCC nowadays has "0b" prefix for binary constants? That's funky.
21:26:38 <Deewiant> That's stolen from D is what it is :-P
21:26:39 <AnMaster> nooga, link to spec of this language
21:26:49 <nooga> AnMaster: what language?
21:26:59 <AnMaster> the one you made a compiler for...
21:27:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually I think I saw it in some other language before. Where D stole it from
21:27:41 <nooga> http://esolangs.org/wiki/SADOL tl;dr probably
21:27:43 <Deewiant> I'd be /very/ surprised if it was a new idea in 2001 or whenever
21:27:47 <fizzie> It's really not a horribly innovative leap, you know.
21:29:10 <AnMaster> I prefer the erlang syntax (they probably stole it from prolog or something): base#number 16#abc 2#101
21:29:20 <nooga> variable can dynamically change type to one of: double, int, string, list, function
21:30:39 <AnMaster> $ echo $(( 0x20 )) $(( 040 )) $(( 32#k ))
21:31:06 <AnMaster> $ echo $(( 50#k )) $(( 50#K ))
21:31:16 <nooga> :a5 {now a is int} :a~2+#_0#_1 {now a is func} :a$0 {now a is list, etc.}
21:31:21 <AnMaster> it is case insensitive if only one alphabet is needed.
21:32:26 <AnMaster> nooga, what about it. Sounds like any other dynamically typed dynamic language when it comes to variable type changing for the same variable. Not usual syntax though.
21:33:01 <AnMaster> but there are certainly languages that allow such stuff. Python and perl comes to mind.
21:33:10 <AnMaster> not sure about the function one though
21:33:30 <AnMaster> but you could assign a int, then a float, and if python then a list to the same variable name.
21:33:46 <AnMaster> nooga, can't you solve this by JITing?
21:34:03 <fizzie> Perl doesn't let you put a list or a hash in a scalar variable; but you can certainly put a list reference or a hash reference or a code reference or a typeglob or whatever.
21:34:10 <AnMaster> "<AnMaster> but you could assign a int, then a float, and if python then a list to the same variable name."
21:34:30 <fizzie> Yes, it was sort of an add-on comment.
21:34:58 <AnMaster> I started irc in failsafe mode.
21:38:46 <AnMaster> Slereah, what is an "ami rite"?
21:39:03 <AnMaster> sounds like the *other* type of esoteric
21:39:10 <AnMaster> you must be in the wrong channel
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21:47:09 <nooga> AnMaster: JIT -> slow
21:47:35 <nooga> you compile at run time
21:47:49 <AnMaster> nooga, yes but you compile once. then execute that code many times
21:48:00 <AnMaster> and it isn't slow really, not if you compile to byte code first.
21:48:40 <nooga> i want sadol programs to me nearly as fast as corresponding C programs
21:48:41 <AnMaster> nooga, plus you can create different versions of the code for integer or float or such when it would help for performance, and both are possible
21:49:10 <AnMaster> nooga, jit can be faster, since you can optimise it based on usage pattern
21:49:28 <AnMaster> if something gets called a lot, maybe inline it
21:49:44 <AnMaster> if something isn't used often, don't, it helps locality of reference.
21:50:06 <nooga> llvm comes to mind
21:51:27 <nooga> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1453274305 :0
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21:59:14 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom.
22:03:27 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you plan to wiztest.
22:03:53 <ais523> drinking loads of juice
22:04:10 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you expect it to do. And what did it do.
22:04:37 <ais523> not choke me, and it didn't
22:04:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:07:05 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
22:09:28 <AnMaster> try foo() of bar -> {ok, quux} catch error:badarg -> error end
22:09:41 <AnMaster> now that is a rather insane syntax IMO
22:10:58 <AnMaster> the erlang: try Expression [of match1 -> ...; match2 -> ...; ... matchn -> ... ] catch [match1 -> ...; match2 -> ...; ... matchn -> ... ] end
22:11:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I find the combining case and try in try Expression of rather odd.
22:13:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not having try and case combined
22:13:56 <Deewiant> Yes, but what's the point of that
22:14:07 <Deewiant> Since you'd have to use case anyway in case of an error
22:14:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err, catch would have case.
22:15:02 <Deewiant> Oh right, those cases are separate
22:15:17 <AnMaster> try Expression [of "matching on return value if no exception was thrown" -> ... ] catch [ "matching on exception" -> ... ] end
22:15:38 <Deewiant> Yeah, I just managed to miss that 'catch' there
22:15:47 <AnMaster> anyway you can actually do: case catch foo() of "matches on both" -> ... end
22:16:27 <Deewiant> That seems more sensical to me, unless functions can return error values without throwing them
22:17:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well try of catch end is rather powerful
22:17:31 <Deewiant> Is that syntax somehow less powerful?
22:19:20 <AnMaster> since exceptions are atoms, yes kind of. Or used to be at least.
22:19:39 <AnMaster> and not sure if you can do more than one expression in it
22:19:56 <AnMaster> like try\n foo,\n blah\ncatch ...
22:40:34 <ehird> 21:47 nooga: AnMaster: JIT -> slow
22:40:41 <ehird> I hereby award nooga the idiot award.
22:41:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well he is right. For certain values or right.
22:42:05 <Deewiant> ehird doesn't really care, he just likes calling people stupid and lazy and whatever
22:42:07 <AnMaster> you have overhead of JITing, and because of that overhead you have to avoid slow but good algorithms for optimising certain stuff.
22:42:19 <AnMaster> register allocation is a good example of that.
22:42:48 <ehird> Deewiant: it's good for the soul
22:43:02 <AnMaster> however a lot of that can be worked around by doing some optimisations on the byte code in advance.
22:43:12 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, it keeps the existence of a soul at bay
22:43:15 <AnMaster> and for long running programs it won't matter.
22:43:33 <Deewiant> There's nothing to keep at bay; and if there was, I wouldn't care :-P
22:43:54 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah well, it's also good for the your face.
22:44:32 <ehird> No. Your mom is BEYOND HELP.
22:47:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw invalid utf-8 for stdio input will make & and ~ reflect. I can't work around it. Since io:get_line() (which I use to fill the buffer for the line buffered input) returns {error,collect_line} if it detects invalid utf-8
22:47:32 <AnMaster> and.... nfc why "collect_line"...
22:47:46 <ehird> Erlang is so crap.
22:47:56 <AnMaster> ehird, not really. Just closed world.
22:48:10 <ehird> It's crap apart from closed worldness, but it's bad at being closed world too!
22:48:20 <ehird> AnMaster: near field communication>
22:48:25 <ehird> national football conference?
22:48:45 <Deewiant> Which I guess is what ehird tried as well
22:48:50 <ehird> AnMaster: NFC, an acronym for "No Fat Chicks", can be used in multiple ways. It can be applied to simply represent a woman with large body mass - such as "did you see that NFC", a label - such as "NFC Emily", or as a literal translation of its meaning; "Come check to my party - NFC!"
22:49:02 <ehird> It's the first result.
22:49:09 <ehird> Don't say shit like stfw if YOU CAN'T JUST DO THAT.
22:49:15 <Deewiant> No Flippin' Clue (polite form)
22:49:26 <AnMaster> and the first meaning I never heard.
22:49:29 <ehird> are all non-no-fucking-clue
22:49:39 <ehird> so i conclude that "STFW" was inaccurate
22:50:45 <ehird> Society of Teachers of Family Medicine
22:51:03 <ehird> Deewiant: I only repeat google.
22:51:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Ignore google's "did your mean"
22:51:38 <ehird> Google's UI for it is so shit.
22:51:46 <ehird> All of the other results are usernames.
22:51:49 <ehird> Or things about surgery.
22:51:56 <ehird> no, I dislike it besides
22:51:57 <AnMaster> ehird, "see the first fucking match" (and I just made that one up now)
22:52:00 <ehird> because it looks like the regular results
22:52:18 <AnMaster> "Did you mean: stfm Top 2 results shown"
22:52:38 <ehird> Yes, but if you ignore googlecruft at the top of the page like I, it looks like the regular results
22:53:00 <ehird> Because it's normally cruft.
22:53:04 <AnMaster> I use googlecustomize in firefox to filter the "sponsored links"
22:53:09 <AnMaster> so there is no cruft there usually.
22:53:34 <Deewiant> I consider everything above the first result for my exact search term 'cruft', to an extent
22:54:36 <ehird> I liked the google style circa 2003, with the gray/blue tabs. More distinction from the search terms.
22:55:05 <ehird> First example I could find: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html (a ye olde googlebomb)
22:55:30 <Deewiant> Yeah, I prefer that style as well.
22:56:52 <AnMaster> but their 404/500 pages still look like that.
22:56:59 <ehird> It's not very retro IMO, it looks more modern than the current style
22:57:46 <ehird> I wonder if google will ever remove I'm Feeling Lucky.
22:58:03 <ehird> (Do I use it? No.)
22:58:33 <AnMaster> you can just do it with two clicks
22:58:53 <ehird> It's completely useless, it has a silly name, and it's given equal prominence to the only useful button. The day it goes is the day Google finally becomes an unfun corporate monster.
22:59:29 <AnMaster> ehird, they are just keeping it to fool you
23:00:10 <AnMaster> ehird, about that "House of Leaves" book you mentioned before. Do you have a copy of it?
23:00:35 <ehird> I'm tempted to get one though
23:00:41 <AnMaster> guess it is easier to read with an image editor
23:00:50 <ehird> "The endpapers of the US hardcover edition of the novel contain hexadecimal characters, which are actually an AIFF audio file of an excerpt from Poe's track "Angry Johnny" when saved as a file in a hex editor."
23:01:16 <ehird> I just have one thing to say.
23:01:19 <ehird> WHO THE HELL FIGURED THAT OUT
23:01:33 <AnMaster> ehird, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/HouseOfLeavesPage134.gif needed both flip and "turn 180 degrees" to read (for different parts)
23:01:42 <ehird> Deewiant: OCR isn't that good, is it?
23:01:53 <ehird> AnMaster: That's harder with an image editor than flipping a book around
23:02:03 <Deewiant> ehird: I mean, somebody typed the bytes
23:02:04 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, but the "flip" is not
23:02:13 <AnMaster> ehird, that is flip left to right, mirroring image.
23:02:16 <Deewiant> And then ran file(1) or noticed the "AIFF" at the start or whatever
23:02:17 <ehird> Deewiant: That must have taken ages; uncompressed audio is big.
23:02:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Portable mirorr.
23:02:40 <AnMaster> ehird, still rather hard to read with
23:02:47 <Deewiant> ehird: It can't be too long if it's in the book.
23:03:19 <ehird> You guys have any opinions about the voynich manuscript?
23:03:34 <AnMaster> ehird, that is one of them undecoded ones right
23:03:47 <ehird> with the weird picturse
23:04:02 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/F75r.jpg
23:04:02 <AnMaster> ehird, refresh my memory of what the pics were of
23:04:07 <ehird> AnMaster: various things
23:04:15 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript#Illustrations
23:04:43 <ehird> "HAWT XXX BATHING"
23:04:47 <ehird> is the title of the book, translated.
23:05:04 <AnMaster> ehird, they don't even look very sexy...
23:05:14 <ehird> I don't think it's intended to be porn, AnMaster.
23:05:24 <ehird> I think it's more that they're naked because, you know, they're bathing.
23:05:32 <ehird> In a weird-ass tube system.
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23:05:51 <AnMaster> the author is complaining about the still not invented "swimsuite"
23:05:58 <ehird> "Biological β a dense continuous text interspersed with figures, mostly showing small nude women bathing in pools or tubs connected by an elaborate network of pipes, some of them clearly shaped like body organs. Some of the women wear crowns."
23:14:33 * Sgeo is rooting for "hoax"
23:14:55 <AnMaster> nah, too much work put into it
23:15:09 <AnMaster> if it was a few pages sure. But there are too many,and too many drawings
23:15:24 <AnMaster> and there seems to have been no economical reason.
23:16:01 <ehird> if it is, then the author is the singlemost amazing hoaxist of all time
23:16:35 <Deewiant> If it isn't, why write it in a random script
23:16:50 <ehird> It was probably not a sui generis script
23:17:14 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sui_generis
23:17:18 <ehird> Sui generis (English pronunciation (IPA): /ΛsuΛiΛdΚΙnΙrΙͺs/, Latin pronunciation: /Λsui ge'neris/) is a Neo-Latin expression, literally meaning of its own kind/genus or unique in its characteristics.
23:17:22 <Deewiant> The likelihood of that is quite low IMO
23:17:26 <AnMaster> also it could be a code. As in you know. For keeping it secret.
23:17:50 <ehird> Voynich hasn't made anyone famous.
23:17:55 <ehird> It hasn't brought much money in.
23:18:02 <ehird> It just sits there being weird.
23:18:21 <ehird> There's no reason for it to be a hoax.
23:18:57 <Deewiant> Completely losing a script in which it is possible to write a book just seems unlikely
23:19:08 <ehird> I'm sure there are plenty of old, lost script
23:19:11 <Deewiant> I mean, the only evidence of a script only 500 years old is exactly one manuscript?
23:19:15 <ehird> It's also possible it was written by, well, a mad man.
23:19:24 <ehird> Have you seen those illustrations?
23:20:08 <Deewiant> I guess I'm mostly of the opinion that I doubt anybody has ever been capable of deciphering it, other than the author
23:20:23 <AnMaster> I have to agree with Deewiant here.
23:20:30 <Sgeo> What's the difference between <z> and <Z>?
23:20:35 <ehird> The script seems too... elaborate.
23:20:38 <Deewiant> To me that just means that it's most likely a hoax
23:20:43 <AnMaster> Sgeo, one is upper case and one is lower case.
23:20:50 <Sgeo> I meant in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Voynich_Alphabet
23:21:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, to me it means it is a private script. Possibly some secret society, or just one person.
23:21:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If it's a society then it contradicts what I said
23:21:31 <Deewiant> If it's just one person; why write such a book?
23:21:34 <kerlo> The Eight Deadly Sins: Pride, Greed, Gluttony, Sloth, Anger, Envy, Lust, Writing Code That Defeats Other Code.
23:21:49 <ehird> http://inamidst.com/voynich/months
23:21:50 <Deewiant> I guess it could just be one huge notebook or something like that, for personal use
23:21:53 <ehird> & also http://inamidst.com/voynich
23:21:57 <ehird> Deewiant: It's too section-y for that.
23:22:01 <ehird> Each section has a theme
23:22:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, alchemists liked to keep stuff secret from other ones.
23:22:14 <Deewiant> ehird: Where "notebook" includes "logbook" etc.
23:22:22 <ehird> AnMaster: It is very alchemist-like, yes.
23:22:23 <Sgeo> People wouldn't section notebooks back then?
23:22:30 <ehird> The author was probably an alchemist.
23:22:30 <AnMaster> Nothing of that publish in any journal you can find!
23:22:32 <Deewiant> I.e. something written for oneself to prevent oneself from having to memorize tonnes of crap.
23:22:57 <Deewiant> Whether it was written incrementally or not doesn't matter
23:22:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Note/logbook + paranoia.
23:24:53 <ehird> I hope it is deciphered some day.
23:25:20 <AnMaster> well since it isn't a OTP I guess it is theoretically possible.
23:33:08 <ehird> How are you meant to backup a 1TB drive? I mean, apart from purchasing a ton of 2TB drives and RAIDing them.
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23:40:17 <nooga> probably it's total bullshit
23:43:05 <ehird> i guess i jus won't back up ;)
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23:44:59 <ehird> "The linguist Jacques Guy once suggested that the Voynich manuscript text could be some exotic natural language, written in the plain with an invented alphabet. The word structure is indeed similar to that of many language families of East and Central Asia, mainly Sino-Tibetan (Chinese, Tibetan, and Burmese), Austroasiatic (Vietnamese, Khmer, etc.) and possibly Tai (Thai, Lao, etc.). In many of these languages, the "words" have only one syllable; and syl
23:45:02 <ehird> lables have a rather rich structure, including tonal patterns. "
23:45:11 <ehird> "The main argument for this theory is that it is consistent with all statistical properties of the Voynich manuscript text which have been tested so far, including doubled and tripled words (which have been found to occur in Chinese and Vietnamese texts at roughly the same frequency as in the Voynich manuscript). It also explains the apparent lack of numerals and Western syntactic features (such as articles and copulas), and the general inscrutability of
23:45:13 <ehird> the illustrations. Another possible hint is two large red symbols on the first page, which have been compared to a Chinese-style book title, inverted and badly copied. Also, the apparent division of the year into 360 degrees (rather than 365 days), in groups of 15 and starting with Pisces, are features of the Chinese agricultural calendar (jie qi). The main argument against the theory is the fact that no one (including scholars at the Chinese Academy of
23:45:18 <ehird> Sciences in Beijing) could find any clear examples of Asian symbolism or Asian science in the illustrations. "
23:45:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> How are you meant to backup a 1TB drive? I mean, apart from purchasing a ton of 2TB drives and RAIDing them. <-- tape
23:45:49 <ehird> AnMaster: er how much can tapes store
23:45:55 <ehird> also how much money, how much speed
23:46:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen 120 GB tapes, and that was 4 or 5 years ago.
23:46:20 <AnMaster> and that was without compression
23:46:33 <ehird> AnMaster: 1 terabyte
23:46:39 <ehird> and you want me to back it up
23:46:50 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't need a lot of them
23:46:57 <AnMaster> ehird, "and that was 4 or 5 years ago"
23:47:02 <ehird> AnMaster: generally a backup system has more than 1x the storage of your drive!!
23:47:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, you have a base backup + incremental ones
23:47:32 <ehird> I'd probably only back up every month.
23:47:33 <AnMaster> ehird, read man dump on freebsd
23:47:35 <ehird> "As of 2008, the highest capacity tape cartridges (Sun StorageTek T10000B, IBM TS1130) can store 1 TB of data without using compression."
23:47:39 <ehird> So I'd need up to 5 or so.
23:47:54 <ehird> Which I assume cost a lot.
23:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't use one tape only anyway
23:48:18 <ehird> I imagine tapes are really slow
23:48:28 <ehird> AnMaster: what's the advantage here of buying multiple terabyte drives
23:48:33 <ehird> (which i'm not doing because of $$$)
23:48:39 <AnMaster> ehird, http://rafb.net/p/ICiP8q61.html
23:48:49 <ehird> 120 gb/s w/ 62 second loading time
23:48:56 <ehird> of the sun 1tb tabe
23:49:26 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StorageTek_tape_formats#Cartridge_formats
23:49:33 <ehird> 120 mb/sec and it needs 62 seconds to start up.
23:49:56 <Sgeo> Why is explorer so sucky?
23:49:58 <ehird> I bet they cost thousands
23:50:24 <AnMaster> ehird, tapes aren't meant to be random access. Remember that.
23:50:35 <AnMaster> so those 62 seconds aren't very bad
23:50:44 <nooga> i was backing up 3TB
23:50:44 <ehird> but why would i do this
23:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, also remember compression
23:50:49 <ehird> why wouldn't I just get a bunch of drives
23:51:12 <nooga> bought 3x1TB hdd, included into my RAID, done
23:51:17 <ehird> yeah, except the reason I'm not doing that is that I don't have the cash to spill on 2x2TB drives
23:52:56 <kerlo> I just got paid five bucks for writing the following regular expression: /\&\;/g
23:53:00 <ehird> Twitter for when you blink.
23:53:14 <ehird> I want to write a regexp for them
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00:01:07 <nooga> ppl bear irrational fear
00:02:04 <Sgeo> Hey, I can do regexes! I've done them before! *ducks*
00:03:13 <nooga> it's one big regexp
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00:10:23 <ehird> what's that got t o do with php
00:10:25 <ehird> nobody mentioned php
00:10:55 <psygnisfive> and ive been coding in php lately, including some regex stuff.
00:11:16 <psygnisfive> so both regex and php are fresh in my mind, especially in conjunction.
00:11:37 <Sgeo> PSOX uses regexes
00:12:21 <ehird> PSOX uses god dammit sgeo i will be violent in regards to you
00:15:29 <Sgeo> How did I know you'd react like that?
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00:21:59 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX
00:28:23 <ehird> "Take a conventional ice cream and replace all of its constituents with savoury equivalents. For the cone we will substitute pastry or perhaps batter, as found in a Yorkshire pudding. At the bottom of the cone is a dollop of beef and gravy, followed by scoops of nice mashed potato, possibly with leek or horseradish or something equally interesting stirred in. We add tomato sauce instead of strawberry, and the flake is replaced with a sausage. "
00:28:25 <ehird> http://qntm.org/?savoury
00:36:12 <Sgeo> * Jello_Raptor has changed the topic to: #xkcd challenge: name two rules which in addition to bucket's "-ass " to " ass-" would make buckat a universal turing maching (assume linked input and output)
00:36:25 <ehird> "Microsoft created a loyal customer in me. I like their products, and I'm not ashamed to say it. They are just another company making software, and they happen to have the biggest market share. Why? Not because they're evil and sacrifice cats - it's because their operating system is the easiest and best to use, as evidenced by the entire fucking world"
00:37:06 <Sgeo> Popular OS means stuff released on it. More stuff released for it means people need it to use the stuff release, which makes it more popular, etc.
00:38:47 <ehird> "Amen brother. I enjoy having an OS I can use that doesn't treat me like an idiot, AND gives me the opportunity to muck around in the guts of without knowing how to program my own damned drivers. I actually own a legal copy of Windows XP. Wooo."
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00:38:55 <ehird> Good god, it's a cesspool of stupidity.
00:39:00 <ehird> Netcraft confirms it: reddit is dead.
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00:45:30 <ehird> Deewiant: http://managedflash.com/index.htm β this looks like bullshit but what is it?
00:48:26 <ehird> "The Intel drive is already doing what the MFT is doing."
00:51:52 <ehird> Deewiant: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/8fedm/ocz_pcie_20_x4_ssd250gb_500gb_1_tb_1300_2500_3300/c093sk4 β the $3k price is right
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01:53:53 <psygnisfive> or were. surgery fixed your problem right up!
01:55:48 <kerlo> I'm not sure that makes sense.
02:28:31 * kerlo tackles and pins Slereah_
02:30:20 <Slereah_> Oh yes, I am helpless and at your mercy, you strapping young man.
02:32:14 * kerlo looks up "strapping" on Wiktionary
02:32:34 <kerlo> It sounds like high praise, likely because it was juxtaposed with "young".
02:33:20 <kerlo> And hey, it's just what it sounds like.
02:45:03 <kerlo> Huh, the top level of NATO classification is called COSMIC TOP SECRET.
02:55:32 <kerlo> Unless someone has vandalized Wikipedia recently, yes.
02:57:15 <coppro> google seems to confirm that is the case
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04:47:33 <GregorR> Isn't the /whois on FreeNode supposed to specify if you're identified?
04:47:59 <GregorR> Seems to say n= for everyone, registered or not ...
05:08:01 <kerlo> It's supposed to specify whether an IDENT server responded when you connected.
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06:43:15 <Sgeo> I learned just enough haskell to make a bad pun
06:44:47 <oerjan> that was supposed to be an encouragement, btw
06:45:22 <oerjan> <GregorR> Isn't the /whois on FreeNode supposed to specify if you're identified?
06:45:26 <Sgeo> What did Goldilocks say upon seeing "Maybe (b -> Either a b)"?
06:45:52 <Sgeo> It's Just Right!
06:45:59 <oerjan> that's the "is identified to services" part
06:47:30 <GregorR> oerjan: There is an "is identified to services" part? kerlo responded saying that was whether an ident server responded, which makes sense.
06:47:52 <oerjan> um no he talked about n= vs. i=
06:48:13 <GregorR> Right, that's what I thought was supposed to be whether you're identified :)
06:48:19 <GregorR> But there is an "is identified" part?
06:48:32 <oerjan> it's a separate line of the information
06:48:45 * GregorR 's incompetence is UNMATCHED
06:49:47 <GregorR> ........... /me punvomits.
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09:40:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, i= vs n= is for "got identd reply or not"
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10:32:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant: "Please input a character: UNDEF: got 9731 'β' which is hopefully correct." :D
10:36:05 <AnMaster> * [Deewiant] is away (Z z z) <-- It must be past noon there......
10:47:56 <psygnisfive> do you have a problem with people sleeping past noon?
10:48:12 <AnMaster> no, not really. Just didn't expect Deewiant to be that type.
10:49:04 <Deewiant> Meh, I could easily wake up if I set an alarm, I always wake up a few minutes before the alarm (unless I'm /really/ tired)
10:49:17 <Deewiant> I just don't bother so then I sleep for 10-12 hours :-P
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11:19:09 <nooga> ahh, another Mac hating morning
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11:39:46 <AnMaster> Please input a character: UNDEF: got 9731 'β' which is hopefully correct.
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11:59:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you plan to add mycoedge any time soon?
11:59:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if so, tell me in time so I can release the next cfunge version before then. Otherwise I have other more important things to do instead.
12:01:17 <nooga> i listen to swedish radio
12:01:43 <nooga> Radio Bastad, with ring upon a
12:02:12 <nooga> http://www.radiobastad.se/webspelare/Webradiospelare%2080%20kbps.html
12:04:23 <AnMaster> http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/kanaler/ , the links in the first column opens the web radio.
12:04:41 <AnMaster> not a lot of interesting on right now, except possibly in P1.
12:07:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/quit/expected.txt seems to contain some garbage.
12:07:53 <AnMaster> somehow two files got mixed up there
12:11:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also what about the question I had about mycoedge
12:11:56 <Deewiant> "If so, tell you" -> no, so I won't. :-P
12:12:10 <AnMaster> ais523, Deewiant: Should I add some point add SNMP support to efunge. Only reason I ever got this idea is that it would be quite simple to do it, since erlang has most of the stuff needed for it available already.
12:13:29 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Network_Management_Protocol
12:14:45 <ais523> I have trouble working out what that has to do with Befunge
12:15:07 <AnMaster> ais523, same, just it would be kind of trivial in efunge.
12:16:14 <AnMaster> in other news I found a way around the issue I had in efunge for ATHR implementation, so efunge development is starting to speed up again.
12:20:40 <fizzie> [Not that the question was addressed to me, but...] There are SNMP libraries for quite many languages; why not in Funge-98 too; that said, I have grave doubts that not many systems administrators will implement their snmp-based utilities with Funge-98.
12:21:13 <AnMaster> also SNMP fits nicely as a fingerprint name.
12:22:42 <fizzie> Though you can implement SNMP on top of SOCK with Funge-98 code; so optionally it could be a library instead of... uh, a language feature, almost. Too bad Funge libraries aren't very practical, I guess.
12:22:51 <fizzie> s/optionally/optimally/
12:44:05 <ais523> wow, gcc reads my mind
12:44:33 <ais523> just a few days ago I was wondering about a possible optimisation from switches that just assign to variables into lookup tables, as opposed to needing a jump table
12:44:48 <ais523> now I look at the gcc 4.4 release notes and they've added -ftree-switch-conversion which does exactly that
12:45:30 <AnMaster> ais523, you have code that needs it
12:45:30 <Deewiant> I was surprised that that was new
12:45:49 <ais523> AnMaster: I've seen code that could benefit from it
12:45:56 <ais523> although it was just a curiosity thing, no code actually /needs/ it
12:46:05 <ais523> unless going for crazy speed
12:46:40 * AnMaster implemented exact bounds checking with about 5 lines of erlang code. Well add four to that if you include the caching bit (to avoid recalculating on every y).
12:47:46 <ais523> and ooh, they've improved the register allocator
12:48:11 <ais523> that would let me write gcc-bf in more 'pure gcc' than the current version, although the current version's gcc side works so I'll stick to it
12:50:25 <ais523> they've added support for various C++0x stuff too, like the type inference thing
13:06:33 <AnMaster> ets:select(Fungespace, [{{'$1','$2'},[{'=/=','$2',$\s}],['$1']}])
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13:49:43 <oklokol> ais523: what do you mean by that switch optimization?
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13:50:40 <ais523> say you have int y(int x) {int r; switch(x) {case 1: r=2; break; case 2: r=42; break; case 3:r=10323; break;} return r;}
13:50:54 <AnMaster> thinking about parallel computing is hard.
13:51:26 <ais523> ignoring issues of bounds checking, etc, that could be optimised into static const int __y_lookup[4] = {0,2,42,10323}; int y(int x) {int r=__y_lookup[x]; return r;}
13:51:34 * AnMaster is trying to work out bounds updating in the ATHR efunge variant.
13:52:03 <ais523> in fact, that would be a legit implementation as r isn't initialised with a passed-in value other than 1, 2, or 3; that's undefined behaviour, so you can translate it into the alternative undefined behaviour of accessing uninitialised memor
13:52:05 <oklofok> because ehird isn't active atm, i should probably inform you if it's hard you probably have the wrong abstractions and you suck
13:52:24 <ais523> actually, [3] and looking it up as (__y_lookup-1)[x] would probably be the most efficient
13:52:34 <ais523> as the linker will optimise the subtraction from a memory address into a constant address
13:53:41 <AnMaster> ais523, if the compiler ended up with int y(int x) {int r=__y_lookup[x]; return r;} as the final code I would be rather disappointed.
13:53:56 <AnMaster> y(int x) { return __y_lookup[x]; }
13:54:13 <ais523> I'm referring to that particular optimisation, rather than to other optimisations
13:54:20 <oklofok> err, what's the difference, r would be a register anyway
13:54:26 <ais523> in fact, gcc doesn't need an explicit optimisation there, the two would compile into the same code
13:54:37 <ais523> as it would allocate r to the register which happened to hold the return value of the function
13:54:46 <oklofok> okay i'm thinking load-store here, i guess on lesser architectures AnMaster's is faster
13:54:51 <AnMaster> oklofok, depends on calling convention though.
13:55:35 <oklofok> in what kind of a convention would yours be better?
13:55:36 <AnMaster> lets say you have "return on stack" for calling convention.
13:55:49 <AnMaster> and the system has a "mov" to move between two memory locations directly
13:56:05 <AnMaster> which is faster than moving first to register and then to the stack.
13:56:19 <oklofok> yes, that's what i was referring to by lesser architectures
13:56:21 <AnMaster> rather contrived example though.
13:56:56 <AnMaster> actually on x86 it wouldn't matter
13:57:04 <AnMaster> integers are returned in eax iirc
13:58:01 <AnMaster> structs and other large things are as usual returned on the stack. All architectures have some upper size limit on parameters/return data before it ends up using the stack.
13:58:10 <oklofok> err right i didn't know that was actually x86's calling convention
13:58:18 <oklofok> in that case yours is the same as ais523's
13:58:40 <oklofok> AnMaster: where are doubles returned? stack
13:58:47 <AnMaster> oklofok, depends on if compiler is smart enough to not do "mov memory,register, move register,otherregister"
13:58:57 <AnMaster> I have seen gcc do stuff like that at -O0
13:59:18 <AnMaster> oklofok, either stack of x87 registers. Don't remember.
14:00:14 <AnMaster> oklofok, that is the floating point bit, even though it isn't a co-processor since ages.
14:00:15 <ais523> -O0 is very literal minded
14:00:46 <AnMaster> ais523, that still doesn't justify two mov $0,%eax directly after each other IMO.
14:00:51 <AnMaster> something I have also seen at -O0
14:01:11 <AnMaster> and no I didn't assign the same variable twice. In fact the function didn't use eax in any other place.
14:01:27 <ais523> well, my guess is it isn't remembering the value of eax from one command to another at O0
14:01:36 <ais523> and the built-in pattern-match sets it to 0 there
14:01:50 <oklofok> makes sense it would have such a mode
14:01:54 <AnMaster> ais523, but why would it store two integers in the same register.
14:02:28 <oklofok> AnMaster: would probably need to know context to be able to explain
14:04:11 <AnMaster> oklofok, back with 386, the 387 was the separate floating point processor you could buy as an add-on. The name x87 stuck for the floating point bit even when it was integrated into the main processor in 486 and later (for brevity I'm ignoring 486SX here).
14:04:56 <oklofok> AnMaster: right i may have heard about that
14:05:20 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it wasn't like that. I think the function was more like: double add(double a, double b) { return a + b; } (used in some threaded code, where threaded means in the Forth meaning of it)
14:05:52 <ais523> does having a particular value in eax affect the way floating-point addition works, I wonder?
14:05:59 <ais523> based on my experiences on x86, I wouldn't be surprised...
14:06:59 <AnMaster> there is the floating point control register though.
14:07:20 <AnMaster> at least that is what gdb calls it.
14:07:50 <AnMaster> mxcsr is the control register for the xmm registers (SSE)
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14:41:34 * AnMaster tries working out details for a custom supervisor for the threads
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15:03:47 <AnMaster> hm distributed funge space....
15:04:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_ring
15:04:48 <AnMaster> actually this won't be possible for that... would need to mirror funge space to each note
15:05:10 <AnMaster> what I'm working on is simply concurrent non-distributed funge-space
15:05:38 <oerjan> i thought you'd want a fungy name...
15:07:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, just trying to work out semantics for it.
15:08:37 <AnMaster> easiest way is probably one master funge-space server + mirrors. Mirrors send updates back to the master. (So they may be slightly out of sync in all directions, but not much.)
15:08:50 <AnMaster> another way would be meshed funge-space with no defined master.
15:09:04 <AnMaster> fs2fs (fungespace-to-fungespace)
15:09:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:10:24 <AnMaster> ais523,how would you design distributed funge-space. Slightly out of sync allowed.
15:10:41 <AnMaster> Master funge-space server + mirrors. Or f2f?
15:10:55 <ais523> probably by using Bethunge spreading, and putting one CPU doing each thread
15:11:11 <AnMaster> ais523, no, I meant distributed as in a cluster
15:11:29 <ais523> ah, you want this to transparently work on existing programs?
15:11:45 <AnMaster> ais523, well no, it wouldn't, since they would not be lock-step threaded.
15:11:46 <ais523> it seems to me that you aren't going to get much (or any) gain unless the program was designed with distribution in mind
15:12:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm thinking for ATHR. My current design allow SMP but not distributed nodes.
15:13:28 <AnMaster> one way would be to go full blown mnesia db (quite a bit of overhead for updates, since it always uses transactions, and restart failed transactions).
15:13:39 <AnMaster> that would handle the distribution bit for me.
15:14:09 <AnMaster> anyway I'm not going to do it right now. Atm I'm trying to get bounds to work correctly on a *single* node.
15:17:37 <AnMaster> btw, exact bounds is undefined after ATHR has been loaded.
15:21:02 <ais523> you're allowed to do that, because it's a fingerprint
15:22:06 <AnMaster> ais523, yes a very feral one indeed.
15:22:54 <ais523> evil plan: make a fingerprint FAST that has no semantics, but instead allows an interp to do slightly non-conforming things to be faster
15:24:11 <AnMaster> ais523, interesting idea. But there is a runtime overhead of checking if the fingerprint has been loaded. Unacceptable.
15:24:31 <ais523> AnMaster: why not just make the fingerprint replace the executable in memory?
15:24:49 <AnMaster> ok that works I guess. But then there is the overhead of doing that ;P
15:25:08 <ais523> store cfunge always on a RAM drive, and execute it straight from the drive?
15:25:25 <AnMaster> anyway ATHR is in efunge only, not in cfunge
15:25:30 * ais523 wonders if that's actually possible
15:25:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I think linux supports executing directly from some devices yes
15:26:18 <AnMaster> flash mostly. Not with PC interface to flash, rather for more low level interface.
15:26:40 <AnMaster> on PCs flash devices use the ATA interface, which doesn't support it.
15:27:00 <Deewiant> I don't think there are enough expensive operations for FAST to be of any benefit
15:27:14 <ais523> y is one of them, it could restrict itself to only the more useful information
15:27:19 <ais523> or change the semantics to be faster to retrieve
15:27:26 <ais523> bounds checking, for instance
15:28:00 <ais523> likewise, you could turn off checking for reflections on invalid input to commands
15:28:04 <AnMaster> for cfunge exact bounds is a compile time option.
15:28:06 <ais523> just assume all input is valid and crash when it isn't
15:28:24 <AnMaster> ais523, actually efunge could benefit a bit from that
15:28:44 <AnMaster> since I have to catch exceptions in ,
15:29:02 <ais523> haha: http://www.icfpcontest.org/
15:29:05 <AnMaster> overhead doesn't seem to be very large though
15:29:56 <ais523> does fff**, reflect in cfunge? does it in efunge? /should/ it?
15:30:07 <ais523> well, it shouldn't in efunge because that's a valid codepoint IIRC
15:30:18 <ais523> but it isn't for cfunge, which uses 8-bit chars again IIRC
15:30:32 <ais523> because it's incapable of outputting that character
15:30:56 <ais523> in the case of ffffff*****, I would imagine that both should reflect
15:30:57 <AnMaster> ais523, no it isn't. int putchar(int c);
15:31:12 <AnMaster> what putchar does is up to it.
15:31:14 <ais523> AnMaster: but you're only supposed to pass things in the char range or EOF as arguments to it
15:31:31 <ais523> oh... "fputc() writes the character c, cast to an unsigned char, to stream."
15:31:51 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I only reflect on EOF on stdout.
15:32:10 <ais523> by the way, mightn't putc(c,stdout); be faster?
15:32:17 <ais523> because it's equivalent, and might be implemented via a macro?
15:32:30 <ais523> also, what about using unlocked I/O?
15:32:34 <AnMaster> funge_cell a = stack_pop(ip->stack);
15:32:35 <AnMaster> if (FUNGE_UNLIKELY(cf_putchar_maybe_locked((int)a) != (unsigned char)a))
15:33:02 <ais523> you thought of that already, the putchar was just lying to me
15:33:09 <ais523> is cf_putchar_maybe_locked a macro, by any chance?
15:33:15 <AnMaster> ais523, cf_putchar_maybe_locked is a macro, it may be unlocked, depending on if OS supports it, and on if Boehm-gc is used
15:33:28 <AnMaster> unlocked stdio messes up with bohem for some reason
15:33:35 <ais523> also, why does cfunge need a garbage colelector?
15:33:45 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't, it is an option
15:33:57 <ais523> why does the option exist, if it doesn't need a GC?
15:34:44 <AnMaster> ais523, because once it did and removing it wouldn't save anything. All the code handling it is in a single header.
15:34:57 <AnMaster> I mean it is no extra work to just keep the option.
15:35:11 <ais523> but it's an option nobody would want to use
15:35:20 <AnMaster> ais523, I test it every now and then.
15:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, there are other "hidden" options, some meant only for developers (read: me)
15:36:50 <ais523> C-INTERCAL has some options which are probably only useful for developers, but are documented anyway
15:36:52 <AnMaster> -DFUZZ_TESTING in CFLAGS is one such.
15:37:35 <AnMaster> makes cfunge non-conforming by: 1) always making q exit with 0 2) calls alarm() at the start to limit runtime for each fuzz test.
15:38:00 <AnMaster> at one point it also made cfunge output which random seed was used at startup.
15:54:31 <ehird> 09:49 Deewiant: Meh, I could easily wake up if I set an alarm, I always wake up a few minutes before the alarm (unless I'm /really/ tired)
15:54:36 <ehird> i set an alarm and then fight it for hours
15:55:08 <oerjan> the question is, do you fight it before or after it sets off? :D
15:55:30 <ehird> well my alarm is my iphone
15:55:33 <ehird> turning it off is difficult
15:55:40 <ais523> I generally wake up just before the alarm too, but only if I've set it
15:55:43 <ehird> you need to slide a little knob on the touchscreen from one side to another
15:55:45 <ais523> normally I rely on my parents to wake me
15:55:54 <ehird> and if you do that from bed you just slip or whatever
15:56:08 <ehird> so i generally bash the lock button, which shuts up the alarm for ~9 minutes
15:56:27 <ehird> possibly I should disable the lock button
15:57:21 <oerjan> when i use an alarm i make sure to put it out of reach from bed
15:57:31 <ehird> the ether convinced me to use perl again
15:57:44 <ehird> 'cuz, y'know, I'm insane.
15:58:19 <oerjan> i suggest you stop sniffing ether, then
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16:02:14 <AnMaster> how does anyone manage to wake up just before the alarm goes off
16:02:27 <ehird> body clock and all that shit
16:02:31 <ehird> you can't do it first tim
16:02:35 <ehird> just after you get used to the alarm
16:02:38 * ais523 has been going around search engines and internet directory sites looking up INTERCAL
16:02:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I generally have irregular wake up times.
16:02:50 <ais523> surprisingly, Cuil's results are slightly better than Google's in that respect
16:03:32 <ais523> they got loads of funding
16:03:43 <ais523> enough to keep them going for years even if they get no hits
16:04:06 <ehird> http://www.cuil.com/info/blog/
16:04:10 <ehird> Tweaking the image algorithm J.D. Chen, software engineer
16:04:12 <ehird> When you see the right image, you know it instantly. And if itβs not quite right, you know it right away, too. Weβve gotten lots of feedback on our image work since launch and we really appreciate the input and ideas. Weβve looked, listened and learned, and have made some changes. Today we are rolling out some more changes to our image algorithm that address some of these issues. We hope to find more photos and less title bars, for example. And we
16:04:17 <ehird> have to be able to find more good images from the results themselves.
16:04:19 <ehird> they're posting to their fucking blog.
16:04:30 <ais523> oh, the images were nearly all irrelevant on Cuil's results
16:04:44 <ais523> Search Wikia's aren't too bad, although it has more irrelevant ones than the others it has more relevant ones too
16:04:48 <ehird> the comments are all positive
16:04:51 <ais523> it was the only one to notice CLCLC-INTERCAL
16:04:56 <ehird> this is bizarro world
16:04:59 <ehird> where cuil is better than google
16:05:03 <ais523> ehird: it's because Cuil failed massively on its opening day, because the servers crashed
16:05:22 <ais523> it isn't actually as bad as everyone thought it was based on that, although that of course doesn't mean it's better than Google
16:05:22 <ehird> I am a citizen of the internet :P
16:05:32 <ehird> also, cuil really is bad
16:06:03 <ais523> woah, the Search Wikia results just keep coming
16:06:13 <ais523> the bottom of the page is dynamically generated I think
16:06:20 <ais523> as in, if you keep scrolling down, you keep getting more results
16:06:24 <ehird> ais523: ah, that technique
16:06:34 <ais523> I was wondering why there were so many
16:06:57 <ais523> and it's still finding several relevant ones
16:07:05 <ais523> it just found https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/clc-intercal
16:07:06 <ehird> ais523: i thought you used noscript?
16:07:10 <ehird> oh, wikia requires js, right?
16:07:18 <ais523> immediately after the Malbolge homepage
16:07:24 <ehird> that's pretty good.
16:07:25 <ais523> and yes, using noscript != disabling JS everywhere
16:07:31 <ais523> yes, but there are lots of other irrelevants too
16:07:41 <ais523> it's about 20% relevant scrolled down that far
16:07:49 <ais523> as in, about 1 in 5 results look like what I'm looking for
16:07:56 <ais523> that's still enough that it's useful, though
16:08:05 <ehird> google is useless after about page 4
16:08:17 <ehird> unless your term only really means one thing and it's popular
16:08:28 <ais523> yep, search wikia just goes on finding lots of useful results, in addition to the useless ones
16:08:32 <ais523> some of which I've never seen before
16:08:59 * ehird scares ais523 with his perl
16:09:08 <ehird> possibly the only language where clean, idiomatic code is scary!
16:09:47 <ais523> for instance, http://blogs.technet.com/homeserver/archive/2007/05/25/celebrating-35-years-of-intercal.aspx is a useful tidbit of information
16:10:12 <ais523> I'd heard (from someone claiming to be Richard Lyon, Jim's brother) that Jim Lyon worked for Microsoft
16:10:17 <ais523> but that, on a Microsoft blog, confirms it
16:10:23 <ehird> Well first, Windows Home Server is written primarily in INTERCAL.*
16:10:23 <ehird> *This is actually not true. But it would be funny if it were.
16:10:31 <ehird> IF YOU EXPLAIN A JOKE LIKE THAT IT'S NOT FUNNY >_<
16:10:41 <ehird> you just make the assumption that your readers are idiots!
16:10:44 <ais523> it's a Microsoft blog, though
16:10:53 <ais523> so their lawyers / marketers probably insisted on it
16:11:15 <ehird> I wonder if jim lyon working at MS is an elaborate prank of his
16:12:23 <ais523> <http://www.sharpened.net/helpcenter/file_extension.php?i> File Format: Proprietary file format used by INTERCAL software.
16:12:44 <ais523> it's all well and good for a file extension site to decide that .i usually refers to INTERCAL, rather than preprocessed C
16:12:52 <ais523> is that just because you can't read it?
16:13:06 <ehird> they see it's just used by INTERCAL, oh, it's probably proprietary
16:13:14 <ehird> "Contains source code written in INTERCAL, a programming language designed to be different than all other major program languages; uses commands such as "DO," "NEXT," "PLEASE," and "FORGET." "
16:13:19 <ehird> DO and NEXT aren't very obscure...
16:13:22 <ais523> the file usage is also wrong
16:13:41 <ais523> the INTERCAL versions of them don't do the same as those keywords in other languages, though
16:13:53 <ais523> INTERCAL NEXT = BASIC GOSUB
16:13:54 <ehird> it's more like prefix ;
16:13:59 <ais523> well, not exactly in either case
16:14:03 <ais523> but it helps to get the understanding right
16:14:07 <ais523> prefix ; is a good explanation
16:14:56 <ais523> Trouble opening .I files?
16:14:57 <ais523> Scan and fix .i file associations with this free scan.
16:15:11 * ehird grumbles; OS X comes with perl 5.8 and if you install perl5.10 w/ macports you have to do "perl5.10" instead of just "perl"
16:15:11 <ais523> How many file extension errors does your computer have?
16:15:13 <ais523> You no longer need to guess.
16:15:37 * ais523 wonders if that program is spyware
16:15:42 <ehird> Is this a virus Scam?
16:15:42 <ehird> Well I was on face book when all of a sudden, my window closes and a new window pops up saying my PC (even though its a mac), has 9 very critical viruses. I don't know what to do. Also the window had the PC version of the "top" of a window. should I be worried, or just exit out of the window?
16:15:43 <ais523> I doubt it would work here, though
16:15:46 <ehird> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090412154307AAj1DcH
16:15:46 <AnMaster> ehird, there are many solutions for it.
16:16:02 <AnMaster> ehird, such as alias perl=perl5.10
16:16:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm allowed to grumble at stupid OS behaviour if I want, TYVM.
16:16:12 <ehird> And "#!/usr/bin/env perl".
16:16:35 <ais523> I do /have/ a registry in here, although I don't know if it has file associations in
16:16:39 <AnMaster> put a symlink in ~/bin and make it come before the other perl location in $PATH
16:16:47 <ais523> Wine has a little registry of its own in case Windows programs want to put entries into it
16:16:55 <ehird> AnMaster: thank you, I'm not an idiot, I know how to use unix
16:17:06 <ais523> Gnome has something similar, but it uses .desktop files for file extensions rather than gconf
16:17:11 <AnMaster> ehird, don't grumble, give a whistle!
16:17:31 <ehird> gconf is nice, anyway
16:17:38 <ehird> the registry is not a fundamentally bad idea
16:17:45 <ehird> windows's implementation is, though
16:18:06 <AnMaster> ais523, you got the reference at least I hope.
16:18:28 <ehird> AnMaster: So did I, Mr. An "Just because I got the joke doesn't mean I have to say haha or something" Master.
16:18:39 <ehird> (Or should I say An Hypocritical Master...)
16:18:57 <ais523> does anyone recognise the program in <http://www.wlug.org.nz/INTERCAL>?
16:19:46 <ehird> http://www.ofb.net/~jlm/intercal.html
16:19:48 <ehird> The infamous ROT-13 program
16:19:49 <ehird> Yes, this is it, the ROT-13 program I wrote in INTERCAL because I couldn't get my Pascal to compile on Unix and I didn't know C yet. It's been described on alt.folklore.computers as "4 pages of completely indecipherable code". Two of these stuck together make a decent "slowcat" for viewing VT-100 animations. [Note: Computers have sped considerably since, destroying this vestige of utility.]
16:20:53 <ais523> it's a lot shorter than 4 pages, though
16:21:36 <ais523> the page links to rot13.i
16:21:45 <ais523> but the code at the bottom of that isn't rot13.i, it's something else
16:22:15 <ehird> "People who program in Ruby aren't like other coders. We are the artists, philosophers, and troublemakers. We realize that the fringe of today is the mainstream of tomorrow. We grease the engines of progress, even when we're working outside of the machine."
16:22:21 <ais523> and based on the amount of abstention and reinstatement going on, it would benefit a lot from ONCE/AGAIN
16:22:26 <ehird> "Additionally, our heads are way up our respective asses."
16:22:34 <ehird> "'Cuz we're just so awesome."
16:23:44 <ais523> AnMaster: do you really think I can tell what an INTERCAL program does just by looking at it?
16:23:59 <ais523> however, it counts to 10 in TriINTERCAL
16:24:12 <ais523> I couldn't tell that by looking at it, but there was an explanation above the code saying what it did
16:24:13 <ehird> We are the artists, philosophers, and troublemakers. We realize that the fringe of today is the mainstream of tomorrow. We grease the engines of progress, even when we're working outside of the machine.
16:24:16 <ehird> Rather than trying to describe the language, it's probably best to show an example. The code below was written in Tri-INTERCAL: it merely counts to 10. You may also want to see a sample implementation of ROT13 in INTERCAL. Then again, you may not. ("4 pages of completely indecipherable code", according to its author.)
16:25:38 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:25:52 <olsner> fast det var ju inte fΓΆrfattaren som tyckte det, utan alt.folklore.computers
16:26:08 <AnMaster> I saw syntax highlighting of intercal code in kate. was worried there... but it was just highlighting it as "Progress" whatever that is.
16:26:09 <olsner> also, wrong language, never mind :)
16:26:34 <ais523> ooh, http://www.brendangregg.com/Guess/guess.i
16:26:43 <coppro> Hmm... I like quantum INTERCAL better than threaded INTERCAL
16:26:51 <ehird> coppro: ITRALCEN combines them.
16:27:03 <ais523> there's redundant REINSTATEs in there
16:27:08 <olsner> AnMaster: yeah, I know :P
16:27:09 <ais523> which nobody would do deliberately
16:27:33 <AnMaster> coppro, I would prefer non-synced threaded intercal
16:27:39 <ehird> coppro: shall I explain ITRALCEN's (my hypothetical implementation of INTERCAL) threading model? it acts the same to the end user but it's all based around one operation, ais523 liked it a lot when I told him
16:27:47 <ehird> AnMaster: that's so boring
16:27:59 <ehird> i do not guarantee your prolonged sanity.
16:27:59 <AnMaster> ehird, lock step is even more boring
16:28:13 <ais523> the start of the program contains ABSTAINs and REINSTATEs that cancel each other out
16:28:20 <ais523> presumably just to confuse the reader
16:28:31 <ais523> also, it sets up a table of constant strings
16:28:40 <ais523> AnMaster: C-INTERCAL uses "mostly lock-step"
16:28:58 <ais523> in particular, it's unspecified whether a COME FROM costs a step or not
16:29:06 <coppro> also, ehird, you didn't solve my Enigma puzzle :(
16:29:07 <AnMaster> ais523, does any program try to depend on it being "mostly lock-step"?
16:29:08 <ais523> mostly because I gave up trying to figure it out
16:29:20 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, the modern C-INTERCAL hello world on Esolang does
16:29:24 <ehird> coppro: IT'S OVER! I WANT A DIVORCE!
16:29:33 <ehird> I haven't really being paying attention to enigma lately
16:29:47 <AnMaster> ais523, that would make using the full potential of a cluster rather hard.
16:30:01 <olsner> lock-step sounds pretty easy to reason about though... it's supposed to be hard, right?
16:30:05 <ais523> AnMaster: err, C-INTERCAL wasn't designed for distributed computing?
16:30:14 <ais523> INTERCAL is supposed to be /different/
16:30:24 <ais523> it's allowed to be easy, just most of the easy ways to do things have already been used
16:30:32 <ais523> that's where it gets its reputation of difficulty
16:31:07 <ais523> some things, though, like ONCE/AGAIN/ABSTAIN for multi-thread synchronisation, are really neat but I haven't seen them before
16:31:08 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, you need eintercal ("einter" pronounced as "eynter")
16:31:31 <AnMaster> or maybe entercal would be funnier
16:31:33 <ehird> ---> Installing perl5.10 @5.10.0_3+threads
16:31:45 <ais523> why are you installing 5.10?
16:31:54 <ais523> so you can mess around with the ~~ and // operators?
16:31:58 <ehird> because it has many nice features?
16:32:07 <ehird> say, new operators, that 'switch' thing
16:32:11 <ais523> or because Apple borked their Perl packaging again and you decided to upgrade while you fixed it?
16:32:22 <ehird> 5.8 is unmaintained too, IIRC
16:32:26 <ais523> / is the only 5.10 new feature I've actually used
16:32:29 <AnMaster> ais523, my aim after I get ATHR working (and working on smp vm too, which should be just the same as non-smp vm) is to make efunge support distribution.
16:32:44 <ehird> ais523: also, Modern::Perl requires it
16:33:49 <AnMaster> ok I have concurrent async bounds updating worked.
16:34:16 <AnMaster> at least as far as I can currently test it.
16:34:17 <ehird> our $VERSION = '1.03';
16:34:29 <ehird> warnings->import();
16:34:33 <ehird> feature->import( ':5.10' );
16:34:35 <ehird> mro::set_mro( scalar caller(), 'c3' );
16:34:39 <ehird> http://search.cpan.org/~chromatic/Modern-Perl-1.03/lib/Modern/Perl.pm
16:34:43 <ehird> that's a bit longer than I expected
16:34:53 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: that's a bit longer than I expected
16:34:53 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: oh well
16:35:24 <AnMaster> <ehird> that's a bit longer than I expected
16:35:39 <ehird> yes, AnMaster, internet lag exists. thank you for that.
16:35:48 <AnMaster> ehird, stop calling me blind then
16:36:47 <ehird> "cpan2dist is a commandline tool to convert any distribution from CPAN into a package in the format of your choice, like for example .deb or FreeBSD ports. "
16:36:50 <ehird> Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck yeaaaaaaaaaaah
16:37:52 <ehird> Fuck it, I'm compiling my own perl to /opt/perl
16:38:11 -!- Judofyr has joined.
16:39:20 <ehird> I wonder if cpanplus has a "shut the fuck up and install the package, bitch, I don't care if you're following dependencies" option.
16:39:40 <ehird> hey, perl has its own configure system
16:40:34 <ehird> % ./Configure -des -Duse64bitall -Dusethreads -Dprefix=/opt/perl
16:40:47 <ehird> i wonder how this system will fail!
16:41:01 <ehird> probably interestingly, with lots of fire.
16:41:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> hey, perl has its own configure system <-- you haven't noticed it before?
16:41:20 <ehird> I haven't compiled perl before.
16:41:55 <ais523> I think most people haven't compiled Perl before
16:42:15 <ehird> maybe Larry Wall had a Grand Vision from God, where he was told to make his own, amazing configuration system - and lo, it shall be The Most Divine Configuration System that Man has ever seen.
16:42:31 <ehird> ld warning: in /opt/local/lib/libgdbm.dylib, file is not of required architecture
16:42:31 <ehird> /bin/sh: ./try: Bad CPU type in executable
16:42:33 <ehird> The program compiled OK, but exited with status 126.
16:42:35 <ehird> You have a problem. Shall I abort Configure [y]
16:42:37 <ehird> Ok. Stopping Configure.
16:42:41 <ehird> it links against non-64 bit libs
16:43:36 <AnMaster> ehird, if you want it to link against 64-bit ones
16:43:43 <ehird> no, there is no 64 bit version of it
16:43:45 <ehird> that's why it failed
16:44:07 <ehird> btw, does 64 bit linux do -m64 by default w/ gcc?
16:44:09 <AnMaster> ehird, is OS X mostly 32 bit or 64 bit userland.
16:44:18 <ehird> snow leopard is 64-bitizing
16:44:24 <AnMaster> ehird, on x86_64 -m64 is default
16:44:32 <AnMaster> I think -m32 is default on some other arches.
16:44:34 <ehird> -m32 is default on os x
16:45:08 <AnMaster> anyway the reason is that on x86 the 64-bit thing adds lots of other nice stuff, not just longer pointers.
16:45:27 <AnMaster> so "more memory needed" isn't only reason for 64-bit binaries, like it is on some platforms.
16:45:30 <ehird> What Perl needs is to kick Perl 6 dead and to mostly rewrite perl(1).
16:45:33 <ais523> incidentally, someone published patches to Perl which added INTERCAL operators to it
16:45:49 <AnMaster> ehird, in that case DNF will finish first.
16:46:02 <ehird> AnMaster: err... have you seen how slow perl 6 development is?
16:46:03 <AnMaster> ais523, patches... can't you do such stuff in pure perl.
16:46:12 <ehird> AnMaster: no, you can't define new infix operators
16:46:15 <ais523> which makes it all the madder
16:46:20 <ais523> but defining new operators doesn't work
16:46:26 <ais523> not within the language
16:46:35 <AnMaster> I mean after seeing perligata and acme::brainfuck and such
16:47:02 <ais523> unless you use a source filter, and that would imply you had to be able to parse Perl
16:47:02 <ais523> unless your source filter interprets Perl too
16:47:05 <ehird> AnMaster: perligata is a source filtr
16:47:15 <ehird> ais523: well, syntax extending source filters exist
16:47:16 <ais523> and at this stage, you have to reimplement Perl inside your filter
16:47:21 <ais523> so why not just patch Perl to begin with
16:47:40 <ais523> ehird: none of them really work really properly, though
16:47:48 <ais523> either they fail in corner cases, or have weird restrictions
16:47:50 <ehird> ais523: how does MooseX::Declare work, I wonder?
16:48:03 <ais523> most of Moose works just by defining functions
16:48:12 <ehird> not moosex::declare
16:48:19 <ehird> class BankAccount {
16:48:19 <ehird> has 'balance' => ( isa => 'Num', is => 'rw', default => 0 );
16:48:20 <ehird> method deposit (Num $amount) {
16:48:22 <ehird> $self->balance( $self->balance + $amount );
16:48:27 <ais523> I don't know MooseX::Declare
16:48:28 <ehird> is moosex::declare
16:48:34 <ehird> it's considered a best practice from what I can tell
16:48:40 <ehird> use B::Hooks::EndOfScope;
16:48:40 <ehird> use Devel::Declare ();
16:48:44 <ehird> ok, I regret wondering already
16:49:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Perl compiler internals module.
16:49:11 <ais523> hooks to Perl's internals
16:49:23 <ehird> Basically, Lovecraft is a fluffy kitten.
16:49:26 <AnMaster> ok can't you add new operators that way
16:49:57 <ehird> in this case, Perl thinks it's parsing a procedure call, but this hooks up to } and rewrites the expression if it's a moosex::declare thing
16:50:17 <ehird> for a best practice it's pretty scary
16:50:35 <ehird> AnMaster: OTOH, that's transparent
16:50:47 <ehird> it could suddenly use a lovely new perl syntax extension mechanism that's just been introduced
16:50:52 <ehird> and the usage wouldn't change
16:50:53 <AnMaster> Why B btw. B as in "Binternal"?
16:51:17 <ehird> It refers to an internal perl thing I think
16:51:25 <ehird> The B module supplies classes which allow a Perl program to delve into its own innards. It is the module used to implement the "backends" of the Perl compiler. Usage of the compiler does not require knowledge of this module: see the O module for the user-visible part. The B module is of use to those who want to write new compiler backends. This documentation assumes that the reader knows a fair amount about perl's internals including such things as SVs,
16:51:27 <ehird> OPs and the internal symbol table and syntax tree of a program.
16:51:31 <ehird> maybe they just wanted a short name
16:51:41 <AnMaster> ehird, SV: is what l10n Outlook puts instead of RE:...
16:51:55 <ehird> SV means scalar value/variable
16:51:57 <AnMaster> no other client seems to translate it.
16:52:15 -!- ais523_ has joined.
16:52:41 <ehird> what did you last see?
16:52:49 -!- ais523__ has joined.
16:52:58 <ais523_> <ehird> in this case Perl thinks it's parsing a procedure call
16:53:09 <ais523__> yay, this computer is Internet-connected again
16:53:10 <ehird> we talked about why B's named B after that
16:53:30 <ehird> right, but why the short name?
16:53:51 <ais523__> maybe because it's used a lot inside the compiler itself?
16:54:04 <AnMaster> ais523_, golfing namespaces...
16:54:16 <ehird> 'Note: Wolfram asked us to refrain from posting screenshots, so we will not use any in this post."
16:54:18 <ais523__> [16:50] <ais523> anyway, I found a blog post that explained what Wolfram Alpha actually did, rather than hinting
16:54:20 <ais523__> [16:50] <ais523> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/wolframalpha_our_first_impressions.php
16:54:21 <ais523__> [16:50] <ais523> although it's very fanboyish
16:54:30 <ehird> AnMaster: a regular namespace
16:54:36 <ehird> but Devel::Declare sounds scary
16:54:43 <ehird> Devel::Declare - Adding keywords to perl, in perl
16:54:53 <ehird> use B::Hooks::OP::Check;
16:55:01 <ehird> see, my instincts are right!
16:55:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.).
16:55:49 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523.
16:57:20 <AnMaster> "Alpha is built on top of 5 million lines of Mathematica code which currently run on top of about 10,000 CPUs (though Wolfram is actively expanding its server farm in preparation for the public launch)"
16:57:36 <AnMaster> that's a lot more than I would have expected.
16:57:40 <ehird> AnMaster: how else will they deal with the billions of people using it every second with a brain implant?
16:57:44 <ais523> Wolfram's always been one for scaling up rather than improving his algorithm, IMO
16:58:08 <AnMaster> I mean 10,000 sounds like more than I would expect google to use...
16:58:17 <ais523> but the general concept is, it's Mathematica plus a giant database plus a natural language interface
16:58:26 <ehird> AnMaster: srsly? google has millions
16:58:43 <ehird> ais523: so if the bat is out of the cag can you finally reveal exactly what it is? :P
16:58:47 <ais523> you're effectively just doing database lookups through it, although they can be rather complicated
16:58:56 <ais523> and I have been just now
16:59:13 <AnMaster> well wouldn't it be more ram and disk intensive.
16:59:18 <ehird> ais523: well, I suppose
16:59:34 <ehird> AnMaster: they have to do lots of index lookup stuff every request
16:59:36 <AnMaster> "bat is out the cag"? that is one weird idiom...
16:59:45 <ais523> I don't get why people compare it with Google, even though Google and Alpha can both be used to determine information
16:59:47 <ehird> of cat out of the bag
16:59:57 <ais523> Google finds websites, Alpha is a massive database
17:00:06 <ehird> ais523: so does it actually work?
17:00:26 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal").
17:00:39 <ais523> I didn't get to type any queries into it myself
17:00:43 <ehird> even if it does I wouldn't use it; relying on anything Wolfram is touched sounds like an insanely bad idea to me
17:00:54 <ais523> apparently because the sandboxing wasn't working back then
17:01:06 <ais523> and they didn't trust me not to bring down their servers, presumably it's been improved since
17:01:19 <ehird> ais523: "];System["rm -rf /"];Print["
17:01:29 <ais523> haha, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work
17:01:44 <ehird> ais523: i bet the parser is just a huge gob of string replaces
17:01:45 <AnMaster> how are they going to make money from it
17:01:51 <ehird> AnMaster: advertising mathematica
17:01:55 <ehird> which costs thouasnds
17:01:58 <ais523> if you want to do somethign that takes their CPU more than a few seconds, you have to pay
17:02:10 <AnMaster> ehird, even so I doubt most users would buy it
17:02:13 <ehird> whoa, moose had multi methods!
17:02:16 <ais523> and you know how slow Mathematica is
17:02:19 <ehird> AnMaster: most users don't buy anything.
17:02:33 <ehird> I don't agree with the business model anyway
17:02:40 <ehird> but that's mostly because I believe selling bits is immoral
17:03:04 <AnMaster> ehird, damn you. I can't call you a hypocrite for saying that any longer.
17:03:09 <AnMaster> Since you are planning to change to Linux
17:03:22 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird doesn't mind selling /all/ of it
17:03:34 <ehird> I meant digital bits
17:03:37 <ehird> although I suspect you knew that
17:03:56 <AnMaster> ais523, oerjan would have been proud of that pun.
17:03:59 <ehird> well, I think apple could open source all of OS X without much business damage
17:04:03 <AnMaster> and I understood ehird meant digital bits.
17:04:11 <ais523> although in the case of Alpha, they're jealously guarding their database I think, all you get to do is query it
17:04:12 <ehird> then they'd be selling their hardware + a precompiled, presetup system
17:04:17 <ehird> which just about everyone would still pay for
17:04:37 <ais523> but then they wouldn't be the only people doing OS X
17:04:37 <ehird> and only people like me would go to the bother of compiling it to avoid paying
17:04:43 <ais523> and they'd lose a selling point
17:04:44 <AnMaster> ehird, and they would get lots of developers for free
17:04:50 <ais523> I mean, someone would be bound to port OS X to commodity hardware
17:04:52 <ehird> ais523: true, but they'd always have the nicer curves on the hardware
17:05:04 <ehird> ais523: and - applecare.
17:05:05 <oklofok> yeah selling the stuff that come from people's actual work is immoral, it's okay to get money for whatever physical objects your machinery is able to produce.
17:05:07 <ais523> are Apple fanboys addicted to the hardware or the software, I wonder?
17:05:08 <ehird> people really value having a support line
17:05:17 <ehird> ais523: hardware and software IME
17:05:21 <ais523> oklofok: I assume that was sarcasm?
17:05:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you can buy support for dell too iirc
17:05:54 <AnMaster> "Wolfram will release toolbars for FF and IE, as well as an IE8 accelerator"
17:06:01 <ehird> AnMaster: still, most people would go through apple for the pretty hardware, the assurance that they certainly know how to set up OS X, and the support direct from them
17:06:04 <AnMaster> what does an accelerator has to do with it
17:06:08 <ais523> personally, I think it'll be a whole load of work for the Wolfram people to keep their massive database up to date
17:06:21 <ehird> "Alpha will come in a free version, but there will also be a paid version, which will allow users to download and upload data to Alpha"
17:06:23 * ais523 tries to imagine Google, except instead of indexing other people's sites they wrote the entire Internet by hand
17:06:30 <ehird> i can't wait for the first alpha trolls
17:06:44 <ehird> buy alpha, insert bogus data, ???, lulz
17:06:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the pretty hardware bit wouldn't be a major selling point, considering the current state of economy, people prefer "cheap"
17:06:50 <ais523> how many people pay money just to troll?
17:07:03 <ehird> ais523: there's probably a few
17:07:15 <oklofok> ais523: that would be much better
17:07:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
17:07:34 <ehird> AnMaster: cheap people don't buy macs.
17:07:51 <ehird> % /opt/perl/bin/perl -M'5.010' -e 'say 2+2'
17:07:58 <AnMaster> ehird, right, what about the mid-segment though
17:08:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I would assume they tracked who did it and discarded such data, and if the problem became widespread probably limit it in some way.
17:08:11 <ehird> AnMaster: apple don't make any profit from the mid-segment as it is, so they would not lose anything
17:08:15 <AnMaster> or maybe mark it is as "not verified"
17:08:27 <AnMaster> different background colour or whatever.
17:09:09 <AnMaster> ehird, the only reason I would ever consider a mac would be mac os... think of the colour matching and typography
17:09:21 <ehird> AnMaster: you're not most people
17:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: one interesting point is that Apple are the only major retailer to sell near-silent computers
17:10:10 <ehird> from the mac mini to the mac pro
17:10:17 <AnMaster> ehird, what about those who use mac for this reason, I'm talking about people designing ads or newspapers and such
17:10:19 <ehird> vs the fuss it takes to get a quiet PC
17:10:40 <AnMaster> where mac is still rather common
17:10:53 <ehird> AnMaster: they're well-off money-wise, in general, so they'd probably just buy an iMac and get it all for no fuss straight from apple
17:11:16 <ehird> nobody uses Dell's Ubuntu computers, really, either
17:11:46 <ehird> ais523_: you are statistically insignificant. :)
17:12:35 <ais523_> but one of the reasons I bought it was to affect the statistics
17:12:45 <ehird> try being a few thousand more people
17:13:00 <AnMaster> ehird, so you are not going to vote?
17:13:07 <AnMaster> when you get old enough I mean
17:13:17 <ehird> i never said that did I?
17:13:30 <ais523_> AnMaster's trying to draw an analogy, I think
17:13:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well are you going to or not
17:13:46 <ehird> Do I vote just to change the statistics? No.
17:14:05 <AnMaster> ehird, don't bother. Your vote isn't going to change anything.
17:14:08 <ehird> Of course, I'd tend to vote for someone who has a hope in hell of winning.
17:14:17 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not a good analogy
17:14:27 <ehird> voting for the purpose of changing the statistics isn't what voting's meant to be
17:14:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:14:36 <AnMaster> ehird, it is. You could consider ais523_ "voting" for the product.
17:14:40 <ais523_> actually, all that's needed with the Dell computers is for them to make a profit on them, and they'll keep going
17:14:44 <AnMaster> they aren't going to remove a best seller
17:14:44 <ehird> you could consider that but you'd be wrong
17:14:58 <ehird> voting to make someone win isn't the point
17:15:09 <ehird> you'd like that, but you vote because that's what you think is right. note that this doesn't actually apply IRL
17:15:14 <ehird> but it's certainly the original intent of voting
17:15:15 <ais523_> they don't need to outnumber the Windows computers or anything like that, just to sell enough of them that Dell's money spent on getting Ubuntu saleable was well-spent
17:15:39 <ehird> Running [/usr/bin/make test ]...
17:15:39 <ehird> PERL_DL_NONLAZY=1 /opt/perl/bin/perl "-Iblib/lib" "-Iblib/arch" test.pl
17:15:40 <ehird> Features present: preput 1 getHistory 1 addHistory 1 attribs 1 ornaments 1 appname 1 minline 1 autohistory 1 newTTY 1 tkRunning 1 setHistory 1
17:15:43 <ehird> Flipping rl_default_selected each line.
17:15:45 <ehird> Enter arithmetic or Perl expression: exit
17:15:47 <ehird> What the fuck, CPANPLUS?
17:15:51 <ehird> What do you want me to enter?
17:16:04 <ehird> Oh, it's testing readline.
17:16:18 <AnMaster> ehird, no it is enter as in Shakespear
17:16:19 <ehird> Hey, it didn't even yell at me.
17:16:45 <Deewiant> "Enter x or y" doesn't make much sense in that context
17:16:48 <AnMaster> "Excuant(sp?) Hamlet and arithmetic"
17:16:58 <ehird> it's like cpan except less than 100 pages of output
17:17:03 <ehird> oh and it actually works
17:17:18 <ais523_> grr, I forgot how much I hate windows
17:17:29 <ehird> ais523_: I heartily recommend compiling a perl in /opt/perl owned by your user, cpan actually works then
17:17:34 <ais523_> and am annoyed at being forced to use it for something for the University
17:17:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, clearly it is a modern play. An analogy for quantum mechanics.
17:17:48 <ais523_> ehird: what, really? I thought nothing made CPAN actually work
17:17:56 * ehird "s conf prereqs 1; s save" β Yes, cpanplus, install dependencies automatically.
17:18:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so yes it makes sense.
17:18:07 <ehird> no worrying about root ownership or anything because you just run everything as your user
17:18:16 <ehird> and whereever it decides to put it works, since it's all owned by you
17:18:22 <ais523_> permissions and dependencies are the two main problems
17:18:30 <ehird> ais523_: use cpanp(1), not cpan(1)
17:18:39 <ehird> s conf prereqs 1; s save
17:18:44 <ehird> will make it automatically chase dependencies
17:18:53 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't do dependencies by default..?
17:18:53 <ais523_> no, the problem is it thinks dependencies are installed even when they aren't
17:18:57 <ehird> AnMaster: it asks you.
17:19:04 <ehird> ais523_: yes, I've never had that problem
17:19:06 <ehird> CPANPLUS probably fixes it
17:19:09 <ehird> since it's a different codebase
17:19:59 <ais523_> I think a CPAN++ is sorely overdue
17:20:06 <ehird> that's the name of cpanplus
17:20:10 <ais523_> you know, that actually works /even if/ the user doesn't jump through hoops
17:20:18 <ais523_> ehird: CPANPLUS only has one plus
17:20:23 <ehird> The CPAN++ interface (of which this module is a part of) is copyright (c) 2001 - 2007, Jos Boumans <kane@cpan.org>. All rights reserved.
17:20:25 <ehird> β perldoc CPANPLUS
17:20:45 <ehird> compiling perl is, thankfully, quite easy
17:20:59 <AnMaster> ehird, the interactive configure is highly annoying though
17:21:17 <AnMaster> I thought you were doing something crypto related
17:22:01 <ehird> cd /opt && sudo mkdir perl && sudo chown ais523:ais523 perl && cd perl && wget http://www.cpan.org/src/perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && tar xf perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && cd perl-5.10.0 && ./Configure -des -Dusethreads -Dprefix=/opt/perl && make test && make install && cd /opt/perl && rm -rf perl5.10*
17:22:07 <ehird> untested, but that's the gist of it
17:22:20 <ehird> then cpanp\ns conf prereqs 1; s save\n^D
17:22:27 <ehird> well, after putting /opt/perl/bin in your path
17:22:27 <AnMaster> efunge already have multiple user interfaces.... kind of
17:22:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:22:37 <AnMaster> adding a web interface to efunge would be trivial
17:22:39 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: cd /opt && sudo mkdir perl && sudo chown ais523:ais523 perl && cd perl && wget http://www.cpan.org/src/perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && tar xf perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && cd perl-5.10.0 && ./Configure -des -Dusethreads -Dprefix=/opt/perl && make test && make install && cd /opt/perl && rm -rf perl5.10*
17:22:40 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: ais523_: β
17:22:42 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: untested, but that's the gist of it
17:22:43 <AnMaster> using the built in tool server thingy
17:22:45 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: then cpanp\ns conf prereqs 1; s save\n^D
17:22:46 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: and you're set
17:22:48 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: well, after putting /opt/perl/bin in your path
17:22:53 <ehird> Module 'Moose' installed successfully
17:22:54 <ehird> No errors installing all modules
17:22:58 <ehird> Without prompting!
17:23:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you think about that
17:23:12 <AnMaster> for batch jobs only, unless I bother with ajax
17:23:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, <AnMaster> adding a web interface to efunge would be trivial
17:23:42 <ehird> % cpanp i MooseX::{Declare,Types,MultiMethods} Modern::Perl
17:23:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, meh. I guess it isn't insane enough
17:23:55 <ehird> it's so eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaasyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
17:24:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Implement TRDS and then we'll talk
17:24:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, distributed befunge with SNMP and failover support in case primary funge space server fails, one of the mirrors takes over as new master?
17:24:54 <ehird> but that's not even esoteric
17:25:02 <ehird> that's just boring shit + vaguely esoteric language
17:25:16 <ehird> parodies have to in some way differ from their target...
17:25:27 <Deewiant> I think implementing distributed stuff is kinda fun
17:25:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't say *what* it was parody on.
17:25:40 <ehird> Deewiant: but not esoteric
17:26:05 <Deewiant> ehird: Not in itself, no. That doesn't make it boring shit
17:26:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes since there would be a fingerprint to control this inside efunge then
17:26:30 <ehird> Deewiant: I was being hyperbolic to demonstrate the unesotericity.
17:26:43 <ehird> [ERROR] Unable to create a new distribution object for 'Devel::Declare' -- cannot continue
17:26:44 <ehird> [ERROR] Failed to install 'Devel::Declare' as prerequisite for 'MooseX::Declare'
17:26:45 <ehird> [ERROR] Unable to satisfy prerequisites for 'MooseX::Declare' -- aborting install
17:26:47 <ehird> [ERROR] Unable to create a new distribution object for 'MooseX::Declare' -- cannot continue
17:26:48 <AnMaster> using erlang as the underlying distribution model
17:26:54 <Deewiant> Saying "that's not even esoteric" isn't enough, you have to insult as well? :-P
17:27:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are talking to ehird
17:27:09 <ehird> Deewiant: Do you know nothing about me? :)
17:27:30 <Deewiant> Maybe I'm hoping there's some sensible reasoning behind it all
17:27:42 <Deewiant> I was never an asshole, even at that age :-P
17:27:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nor was I. But I remember lots who were in school.
17:28:07 <ehird> It should be noted that I'm rarely serious.
17:28:40 <ehird> ais523_: ais523: I think CPAN thinking things are installed when they're not is packages not declaring their dependencies properly
17:28:47 <Deewiant> If you're being an asshole it doesn't really matter whether you're serious or not.
17:28:58 <ais523> ehird: no, it's because it's tried to install them in the past, but failed
17:29:07 <ais523> for some reason it thinks the install succeeded when it does that
17:29:10 <AnMaster> ehird, why then do you act like I'm serious. I mean, do you think I'm serious when suggesting a web control panel for a befunge interpreter.
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17:29:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't see why not
17:29:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Insofar as you would do it and find it amusing, yes.
17:29:35 <ais523> it's an insane thing to do, but no less insane than writing a Befunge interp in the first place
17:29:59 <AnMaster> ais523, true. But you would need a control panel for a massively distributed befunge system anyway.
17:30:10 <AnMaster> with colour coded status page!
17:30:22 <AnMaster> showing load percentages and what not.
17:30:54 <ehird> ais523: actually in this case it just doesnt' have the deps declard
17:31:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That'll be very boring without a program that can actually stress them all
17:31:07 <AnMaster> ais523, in any case this functionality would just be a thin wrapper on the top of stuff erlang already provides.
17:31:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah I would have to figure out some.
17:31:17 <ais523> err, wow, KDE's file selection dialog now automatically tab-completes even if you don't press tab
17:31:22 <ais523> I'm not sure if that's helpful or not
17:31:35 * ais523 isn't sure if there are any KDE4 users here atm
17:31:38 <AnMaster> ais523, the one in 3.5 does too
17:31:40 <ehird> ais523: you mean just like firefox?
17:31:42 <ais523> IIRC AnMaster's sticking with KDE3
17:31:43 <ehird> if so, ABSOLUTELY!
17:31:53 <ehird> i don't like pressing needless keys
17:31:59 <ais523> ehird: no, firefox shows a list of suggestions
17:32:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Implement the better version of MVRS we were trying to turn MVRS into?
17:32:10 <ais523> whereas KDE just fills in all letters that couldn't possibly be different
17:32:11 <ehird> safari selects the first by default, see
17:32:17 <ehird> I forgot FF doesn't
17:32:23 <ais523> as in, say you have files abcde, abfgh, and bei in a directory
17:32:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe, once ATHR is done. They would be compatible certainly.
17:32:33 <ais523> if you type a then you get ab, if you then press c you get abcde
17:32:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a lot of what I'm working on for ATHR would be needed for MVRS too anyway.
17:32:58 <ehird> ais523: yar, that's nice
17:33:16 <ehird> yay, it's installing now
17:33:25 <AnMaster> http://erlang.org/doc/man/supervisor_bridge.html
17:33:25 <ais523> it'll probably take me a bit of getting used to, if I decide to use KDE for anything other than getting the wireless working
17:33:30 <AnMaster> figure out how to do that properly
17:33:38 <ais523> does anyone here know of a good back-to-front font, by the way?
17:33:51 <ais523> my idea for making KDE work like Gnome is to switch the default font to be back to front, then mirror the screen
17:34:00 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you just mirror the rendered text
17:34:04 <ais523> because it seems to be similar in UI paradigm, just reflected
17:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you customise it to work the other way around
17:34:35 <ehird> he's talking about kde.
17:34:37 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:34:40 <ehird> making kde look like gnome.
17:34:47 <ais523> no, making it /act/ like Gnome
17:34:51 <ais523> I don't much care how it looks
17:34:51 <ehird> ais523: I think Gnome is better than KDE these days. Heck, even linus switched to gnome (srs)
17:35:09 -!- WangZeDong has joined.
17:35:09 <ais523> ehird: wasn't that because his favourite Linux distro screwed up KDE4 packaging?
17:35:10 <AnMaster> ais523, rendering font back to front wouldn't help. You would need to make all the features work back to front.
17:35:18 <ehird> ais523: no, he insulted the kde devs iirc
17:35:23 * ais523 wonders why slereah's using the nick WangZeDong
17:35:23 <ehird> being unfocused or somethin
17:35:32 <ehird> ais523: presumably because of "wang" and "dong"
17:36:19 <ais523> AnMaster: do you know where the "visible bell" setting is in KDE4?
17:36:22 <ais523> this computer has a really annoying beep
17:36:43 <ehird> wait your computers beep?
17:36:53 <ehird> ==> Auto-install the 1 mandatory module(s) from CPAN? [y]
17:37:01 <ais523> or all the other things that beep
17:37:03 <ehird> This thing shells out to cpan.
17:37:05 <ais523> ehird: why not just pipe yes into it?
17:37:07 <ehird> To install its dependencies.
17:37:10 <AnMaster> ais523, for anything beeping due to readline
17:37:13 <ais523> and yes, most modules do that
17:37:14 <ehird> ais523: cpanplus doesn't prompt
17:37:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it wasn't a readline beep
17:37:24 <ehird> *** Since we're running under CPANPLUS, I'll just let it take care
17:37:24 <ehird> of the dependency's installation later.
17:37:30 <AnMaster> ais523, hm in KDE 3.5 it is in kcontrol
17:38:11 <AnMaster> ais523, under system notification
17:38:21 <AnMaster> maybe something similar for KDE 4
17:39:40 <ais523> ah, found it, under Accessibility
17:41:17 <AnMaster> ais523, since we are discussing that...
17:41:52 <AnMaster> any idea why shift 5 times in a row turns my numerical keyboard into a mouse...
17:42:01 <AnMaster> even with all Accessibility options turned off
17:42:24 <AnMaster> something else, I have no clue what, sometimes make my keys slow.
17:42:37 <AnMaster> only thing that helps is xset led on && xset led off
17:42:50 <AnMaster> I have no idea why xset would help there
17:43:02 <ais523> AnMaster: that's an accessibility keyboard shortcut to turn accessibility features on
17:43:06 <ehird> AnMaster: it's sticky keys
17:43:10 <ais523> but I think you're muddling the shortcut
17:43:17 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I tried to turn off all such options I found everywhere!
17:43:27 <ais523> shift * 5 causes modifier keys to work like dead keys rather than hold down
17:43:39 <ais523> keyboard like a mouse is alt-shift-numlock
17:43:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well how do you prevent that from happening
17:43:46 <AnMaster> sometimes I need shift 5 times
17:43:50 <ais523> IIRC there's another option to turn off the shortcuts
17:43:59 <ais523> also, what sort of game would use shift as an input?
17:44:22 <ais523> yes, I know they do, I just disapprove
17:44:24 <Deewiant> Shift toggles running in Doom and Quake
17:44:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I turned off the "enable shortcuts"
17:44:55 <AnMaster> for all I know it might be in X itself
17:45:17 <AnMaster> anyway I want all such features off. But I don't know how
17:45:32 <ais523> but I'm used to MouseKeys!
17:45:38 <ais523> the touchpad on this laptop doesn't actually work
17:45:55 <ais523> anyway, I'm kind-of surprised you use a mouse at all
17:46:03 <ais523> given you're the sort of person who edits conffiles by hand
17:46:18 <AnMaster> ais523, How would I use gimp without a mouse.
17:46:30 <ais523> use the command-line version
17:46:41 <AnMaster> ais523, for non-batch operations
17:46:54 <ais523> err, you can do any interactive operation as a batch operation
17:46:57 <ais523> just write the commands in one at a time
17:47:12 <AnMaster> ais523, some are better done with a mouse
17:47:19 <ehird> anyone remember hotjava?
17:47:28 <AnMaster> ais523, like removing dust from a scanned image.
17:47:39 <ehird> it was an awful web browser made by sun written in java
17:47:44 <ehird> quite the rage in the 90s
17:47:52 <ais523> AnMaster: you don't need a mouse for that; just a cloth or something to remove the dust from the scanner
17:48:10 <ehird> ais523: but how will the mouse survive?
17:48:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but there are other stuff you can't do that way, like damaged photos...
17:48:32 <ehird> so just put one in your scanner
17:48:38 <ehird> and ask it not to nibble the things you scan
17:48:46 <oerjan> ehird: you mean it's not really a mouse, but a giant mite?
17:48:53 <ehird> oerjan: it's a dust mouse
17:48:53 <AnMaster> ais523, try correcting a photo that has been partly water damaged
17:48:57 <AnMaster> anyway it is faster with a mouse
17:49:05 <ais523> I was trying to kill a crashed minimized program
17:49:10 <ais523> and accidentally killed the panel instead
17:49:11 <ehird> AnMaster: so is editing and many other things
17:49:38 <ais523> I know of alt-f2, but don't know what KDE's panel is called
17:49:53 <ehird> pronounced kuhpannel
17:50:07 <ais523> kpanel doesn't work, kicker brought up a font configuration dialog box for no apparent reason
17:50:11 <ehird> ais523: it's plasma
17:50:24 <ehird> which also handles the widget things
17:51:00 * ais523 should stop assuming KDE works like Gnome...
17:51:14 <AnMaster> no one know how to fully turn off these mad input features
17:51:41 <AnMaster> you think they care about KDE 3.x nowdays
17:51:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("KDE obviously works like a Kobold").
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17:52:17 <AnMaster> ehird, to a tiling wm. Good idea.
17:52:25 <ehird> desktop environment != wm.
17:52:39 <Deewiant> Desktop environment = pointless.
17:52:41 <AnMaster> indeed. But I tried KDE 4 and I didn't like it.
17:52:42 <ehird> but tiling wms are unergonomic, so they'd probably fit you.
17:52:52 <ehird> AnMaster: you can make it look like kde 2, you know.
17:53:02 <AnMaster> ehird, can you make it *act* like that too
17:53:07 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out).
17:53:14 <ehird> it already does to a large degree. you can probably make it do so even more.
17:53:39 -!- _mut_ has quit (Client Quit).
18:00:00 <ehird> Module 'MooseX::Declare' installed successfully
18:00:00 <ehird> Module 'MooseX::Types' installed successfully
18:00:01 <ehird> Module 'MooseX::MultiMethods' installed successfully
18:00:03 <ehird> Module 'Modern::Perl' installed successfully
18:00:05 <ehird> No errors installing all modules
18:01:25 <ais523> what does Modern::Perl do?
18:02:10 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: our $VERSION = '1.03';
18:02:10 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: use 5.010_000;
18:02:11 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: use strict;
18:02:13 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: use warnings;
18:02:15 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: use mro ();
18:02:17 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: use feature ();
18:02:19 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: sub import {
18:02:21 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: warnings->import();
18:02:23 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: strict->import();
18:02:25 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: feature->import( ':5.10' );
18:02:27 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: mro::set_mro( scalar caller(), 'c3' );
18:02:31 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: http://search.cpan.org/~chromatic/Modern-Perl-1.03/lib/Modern/Perl.pm
18:02:33 <ehird> you mean my flood was for nothing?
18:02:37 <ehird> (I didn't know it'd be a flood first time round, in my defense)
18:02:46 <ais523> yes, I was disconnected at the time
18:03:06 <ais523> so it's just a "use all features of the most recent Perl", it seems
18:03:23 <ehird> and "enable strict/warnings/best method call resoltuion thang"
18:03:28 <ehird> and also the intent is to have more modules in future
18:03:30 <ehird> like moose and whatnot
18:07:14 <AnMaster> what is the "sub import" function about
18:07:20 <ehird> AnMaster: import hook
18:07:21 <AnMaster> I mean what is the point of it.
18:07:29 <ehird> basically, it imports those modules in the importer's scope
18:07:31 <ehird> instead of just in itself
18:07:43 <AnMaster> what is the mro::set_mro( scalar caller(), 'c3' );
18:07:50 <ehird> method resolution order
18:08:09 <ehird> http://search.cpan.org/~rgarcia/perl-5.10.0/lib/mro.pm
18:08:09 <ehird> http://search.cpan.org/~flora/Class-C3-0.21/lib/Class/C3.pm
18:08:11 <AnMaster> No documentation found for "feature".
18:08:40 <AnMaster> This is perl, v5.8.8 built for x86_64-linux
18:08:53 <ehird> 5.8 is many, many years old and not recommended for future use
18:08:55 <AnMaster> and i'm going to when it goes stable
18:08:58 <ehird> and modern::perl doesn't work with it
18:09:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it is stable
18:09:10 <ehird> feature β Perl pragma to enable new syntactic features
18:09:27 <ehird> but only for syntax
18:09:30 <oklofok> ais523: oklofok: with thwat? <<< let's just say if it wasn't obvious, i was unlucky.
18:09:50 <oklofok> *what, although i'm not sure whether it's an error when quoting, i guess not
18:10:10 <ais523> maybe you should have quoted my correction
18:10:31 <oklofok> i think i'm copying a reference and not the actual data
18:10:41 <AnMaster> <ais523> maybe you should have quoted my correction <-- like this? --> <ais523> *what?
18:10:41 <ehird> clearly we need IRC references
18:10:45 <oklofok> because it's a reference to the context, and not just that specific thing you said
18:10:46 <ehird> all messages have a guid
18:10:50 <ehird> and you can do [&guid]
18:10:55 <oklofok> yes hyperlinks would be nice
18:10:59 <ehird> [&f7834d] β this is kinda stupid imo
18:11:07 <ehird> would be a reply to f7834d
18:11:37 <ehird> AnMaster: locally unique id, then
18:11:48 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't work for anyone but you then
18:11:52 <ehird> one month uniqueness guarantee.
18:12:06 <ehird> that's not convenient enough
18:12:40 <oklofok> just give me a button to press
18:12:47 <ehird> [ click here for cake ]
18:12:54 <ehird> don't press Deewiant's!
18:12:56 <AnMaster> irc://server/channel/<timestamp in some lag-resistant way>/uniqeid
18:12:56 <ehird> it removes all cake
18:13:02 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not an urn
18:13:25 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Name
18:13:28 <ehird> because it's just not
18:13:49 <oklofok> (botany) The theca of a moss. <<< i'll go with this
18:14:16 <ehird> "It's official: Windows 7 to be released this week!"
18:14:53 <AnMaster> they are breaking with traditions. No longer "release late, release seldom"
18:15:10 <ehird> well, they have broke with the tradition of backwards compatibility
18:15:20 <Deewiant> That means a release candidate, not a release
18:15:28 <AnMaster> ehird, so windows 95 apps won't have any chance of running
18:15:34 <ehird> (they're putting an integrated XP virtualizer in the higher-end editions so they can break XP compatibility)
18:15:36 <Deewiant> And "release seldom" is not their tradition
18:15:37 <ais523> 7's meant to be just a backwards-compatible as Vista is
18:15:50 <ais523> the integrated virtualiser isn't because they meant to break compatibility, just because they did, IMO
18:16:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, about it being a rc not a final
18:16:04 <ais523> also, mightn't it lead to XP's security problems, I wonder
18:16:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't consider hotfixes releases
18:16:08 <ehird> ais523: well, some of windows 7 looks good to me so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
18:16:11 <ais523> and it's not even in there by default
18:16:14 <ais523> you have to download it
18:16:20 <ehird> not on the higher end ones
18:16:26 <ais523> the higher end ones need a download
18:16:31 <ais523> the lower end ones don't allow it even with a download
18:16:32 <ehird> the fact is that some xp apps won't run
18:16:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Their tradition is to release a Windows every 3 or so years.
18:16:41 <ehird> whether it's intentional or not, that means that they can start breaking compatibility
18:16:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm used to a release per year at least.
18:17:07 <ehird> AnMaster: many open source projects are much slowr
18:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well nethack *does* skew the average.
18:17:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's a complete OS + desktop environment + bunch of other stuff
18:18:06 <ehird> The tests for 'PAR::Dist' failed. Would you like me to proceed anyway or should we abort?
18:18:06 <ehird> Proceed anyway? [y/N]:
18:18:40 <ehird> anyone remember 98 PLUS!
18:18:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: But I thought you didn't consider hotfixes releases. :-P
18:19:19 <ehird> 2003 wasn't really an official release
18:19:30 <ehird> you had to do serious hacking to get it to be desktopy, IIRC
18:19:37 <Deewiant> The break in tradition comes here
18:19:44 <ehird> yeah, XP is a dinosaur
18:19:46 <AnMaster> don't remember what it was though
18:19:57 <ehird> AnMaster: just added wallpapers and sound packs and shit XD
18:20:07 <ehird> Deewiant: 2009 - 7
18:20:14 <ehird> which is not 7 by any counting methods
18:20:27 <Deewiant> ehird: It's Windows NT version 7, isn't it?
18:20:36 <ehird> 6.something, internally.
18:20:44 <ehird> Counting Windows versions, no way is it 7
18:20:49 <ehird> unless you just ignore ones arbitrarily
18:20:53 -!- nooga has joined.
18:21:06 <Deewiant> 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, XP, Vista, 7
18:21:11 <Deewiant> Counting the only usable ones ;-P
18:21:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you added two unusable there
18:21:45 <nooga> ehird: and now you're using Mac? :D
18:21:50 <ehird> 95 and 98 are fine
18:21:55 <ehird> nooga: Me was many, many years ago.
18:21:56 <Deewiant> 95 I can't remember much of TBH
18:22:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Ur doin it rong
18:22:12 <ehird> 95 was incredibly stable, 98 was too
18:22:19 <ehird> Me was hilariously bad.
18:22:33 <ehird> nooga: i thought you agreed to go away
18:22:52 <AnMaster> ehird, 95 and 98 tended to crash as soon as any single program did
18:23:03 <nooga> i'm just hating OSX for fun
18:23:12 <nooga> tbh - it's superior
18:23:14 <AnMaster> but by 95 they should have got that right
18:23:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: But anyway, as you can see the traditional time between releases is actually around 1-2 years, not even the 3 like I said.
18:23:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are counting different product lines there
18:23:47 <nooga> almost true bsd with shiny gui - who needs more
18:23:51 <AnMaster> 9x and NT were different product lines
18:23:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes and? All desktop ones
18:23:56 <coppro> OSX is a superior product to Windows Vista. However, I use neither and I hate Apple's guts even more than Microsoft *shrug*
18:24:05 <ehird> Apple worse than MS?
18:24:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not count office too. and uh, their other products
18:24:28 <ehird> Doesn't make much sense but there you go
18:24:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Because they're completely different things?
18:24:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really NT and 9x had different development teams iirc.
18:24:45 <coppro> (more specifically, I hate Steve Jobs)
18:24:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, they are both OSs.
18:25:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, so you forgot CE then
18:25:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, but NT was for workstations, 9x for home users. Both desktop yes. But totally different
18:25:48 <ehird> nuthin' wrong with steve jobs
18:25:53 <ehird> ('part from cancer)
18:26:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is an equally arbitrary limitation.
18:26:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So should I count the different versions of XP and Vista separately? :-P
18:26:18 <Deewiant> That means they did almost 10 releases in a single year!
18:26:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, that is equally flawed. As I said.
18:26:38 * nooga works in a company where every employee has MS exems passed, certified experts, premium msdn shit available, VIP MS support
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18:26:43 <AnMaster> I suggest you base it on product line
18:26:50 <nooga> all folks there carry macbooks
18:27:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Then it's around 2-3 years.
18:27:04 <nooga> and all developments goes on macs
18:27:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: How often has Linux made a major release?
18:27:22 <ais523> wow, that is one seriously visible bell
18:27:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they stopped doing that model even after 2.6
18:27:41 <ehird> ais523: Feelable Bell should cause a minor earthquake in your vicinity.
18:27:42 <ais523> it filled the entire screen red for half a second
18:28:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are comparing a kernel + desktop env to a kernel
18:28:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I thought that was what you were doing?
18:28:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, better compare windows to ubuntu
18:28:24 <Deewiant> Given that you were all "it should release more than once per year"
18:29:03 <ehird> use MooseX::Types;
18:29:05 <ehird> use MooseX::Declare;
18:29:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, compare kernel + DE to kernel + DE. This means compare NT to ubuntu or NT to red hat or such
18:29:32 <nooga> someone should build a framework for building OSes
18:29:56 <ais523> err, no, NT's a kernel
18:29:57 <nooga> it's unavailable and dead
18:30:00 <ais523> Windows is a kernel + DE
18:30:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also XP isn't a major release. it was NT 6.1 in fact
18:30:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you're being wrong on purpose; stop that.
18:30:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so if you count major releases...
18:30:41 <nooga> SEKS is superior to all OSes
18:30:44 <Deewiant> I was thinking of x.y as a major release actually
18:31:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then linux kernel made a lot more than windows nt
18:31:11 <AnMaster> if you are comparing kernel to os anyway
18:31:27 <AnMaster> and ubuntu made a lot more than windows if you are comparing os to os
18:31:55 <ais523> how do you make symlinks in Dolphin?
18:32:01 <Deewiant> Ubuntu just aggregates incremental upgrades
18:32:02 <nooga> write equations for that
18:32:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure. but comparing a kernel to a full OS is just plain wrong.
18:32:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes and different product lines
18:32:55 <nooga> plain kernel is full wrong
18:32:57 <Deewiant> I'm saying that Ubuntu's releases are mostly like what you'd call Windows "hotfixes"
18:33:08 <ais523> ah, control-shift-drag works, just like it does in Windows
18:33:14 * ais523 wonders if the same shortcut works in Gnome
18:33:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in the same style as combining 9x and NT you should combine ubuntu, redhat, mandrake, suse, slackware, and so on
18:33:24 <ehird> Deewiant: SPs, more like
18:33:26 <ais523> Deewiant: they also upgrade all the software on the system too
18:33:27 <AnMaster> just the desktop editions though
18:33:36 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes: I said "what you'd call".
18:33:36 <nooga> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
18:33:44 <ais523> and things like Paint and Calculator normally only upgrade every few releases
18:33:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same thing as you suggested.
18:34:03 <ehird> Deewiant: he can't, it's inherent
18:34:06 <ais523> Calculator was upgraded with Vista, but before that I think it was the same since 95
18:34:15 <ehird> ais523: nah, it changed in xp
18:34:36 <ais523> ah, I know, maybe it has a ribbon now!
18:34:42 <ehird> everything changed in 7
18:35:10 <Deewiant> Notepad is just an edit control
18:35:13 * nooga , as a certified MS expert (sic) has got 7
18:35:20 <Deewiant> It's a textbox + file save/open
18:35:45 <Deewiant> So no, it won't have a ribbon. :-P
18:35:49 <nooga> 7 is quite nice, copared to other naziOSes
18:36:05 <Deewiant> Cut/copy/paste is not a feature of notepad
18:36:10 <ehird> wow, perl startup time is slow when you add stuff
18:36:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the menu entries are.
18:36:27 <nooga> ehird: "wait, perl is booting"
18:36:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about the search then
18:36:36 <ehird> i'm serious, it rivals java
18:36:48 <nooga> "knock knock... who's there?"
18:36:50 <ehird> % time mx-run HelloWorld >/dev/null
18:36:50 <ehird> mx-run HelloWorld > /dev/null 0.75s user 0.06s system 99% cpu 0.823 total
18:36:52 <Deewiant> I think all textboxes can do search too, I'm not sure
18:36:59 <Deewiant> It's just that it's not usually enabled
18:37:00 <AnMaster> ehird, what are you adding to perl making it so slow
18:37:01 <oklofok> how was calculator upgraded in vista?
18:37:05 <Deewiant> I could be completely wrong though
18:37:08 <ehird> AnMaster: some Moose shit
18:37:26 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you AOT compile it at all
18:37:33 <AnMaster> if no, someone should add that
18:37:48 <ehird> no, you can't really do that with perl afaik
18:43:01 <fizzie> There are/have-been all kinds of compilation-related Perl things, but I don't think I've personally ran across any that has proceeded past the experimental stage. In any case, with Perl it's pretty much just the parsing step you could do ahead-of-time.
18:43:32 <ais523> err, not even that, in many cases!
18:43:36 <ais523> especially with prototypes around
18:43:49 <ais523> but with Perl6, this is all going to be different
18:43:50 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:43:53 <ehird> Can't use string ("4") as a HASH ref while "strict refs" in use at
18:44:04 <ais523> ehird: you attempted to dereference a string
18:44:12 <ais523> that doesn't work in other languages either
18:44:31 <ais523> so you did attempt to dereference, you just didn't mean to attempt to dereference
18:44:36 <ais523> nooga: do you not know Perl?
18:44:43 <ehird> he's mocking perl, probably
18:44:51 <ehird> considering how funny he usually is (ie not)
18:44:53 <ais523> but Perl doesn't look like that
18:45:00 <ehird> no it has lots of symbols and is line noise
18:45:15 <AnMaster> actually nooga was funny here.
18:45:24 <AnMaster> the typical confusion on first seeing perl
18:45:38 <nooga> ehird: you hate me because i'm Polish ;<
18:45:38 <ais523> but Perl's way more readable than INTERCAL!
18:45:40 <ehird> no, I'm sorry, that's even less funny than "I STARTED VI AND THEN IT BEEPED HA HA"
18:46:00 <ais523> actually, your quote is very funny, but only because of context
18:46:09 <ais523> as in, it's funny that you're using that particular quote in an amusement comparison
18:46:26 <ehird> say (...) interpreted as function at HelloWorld.pm line 24 (#1)
18:46:26 <ehird> (W syntax) You've run afoul of the rule that says that any list operator
18:46:27 <ehird> followed by parentheses turns into a function, with all the list
18:46:29 <ehird> operators arguments found inside the parentheses. See
18:46:31 <ehird> perlop/Terms and List Operators (Leftward).
18:46:32 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but perl wasn't designed as an esolang
18:46:36 <ehird> I love how "use diagnostics" patiently tells you why perl is being stupid
18:47:02 <ehird> god, "Perl is hard to read and looks like line noise, ha ha". can you all go back to #kindergarden?
18:47:35 <ais523> ehird: well, writing printf ("Hello, world! %d"), 42; doesn't work in C either
18:47:50 <ehird> ais523: but "printf "abc", 42;" doesn't work in c
18:48:42 <ais523> the problem is that Perl tries to simultaneously support two incompatible syntaxes for function calls, so it has to pick one interpretation when it's ambiguous
18:48:46 <ais523> which confuses people who intended the other
18:49:24 * AnMaster prefers an easy to parse language
18:50:36 <ehird> ais523: if you do "use constant FOO => ('a'=>2,'b'=>3)", how do you access the members?
18:50:41 <ehird> (FOO){'a'} doesn't work
18:50:58 <ais523> err, you can't assign a list as a constant, that just stored 3 in FOO
18:51:01 <nooga> {} and [] should be []
18:51:07 <ais523> you want use constant FOO => {'a'=>2,'b'=>3}
18:51:13 <ais523> then you can do FOO->{'a'}
18:51:28 <ais523> store a hashref, not a list constant
18:51:31 <ehird> nooga: lists = hashes
18:54:16 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:56:14 <nooga> there is no sense in discerning [] from {}
18:56:16 <oklofok> printf ("Hello, world! %d"), 42; <<< doesn't C have the comma operator?
18:56:23 <ehird> yes, that is valid
18:56:24 <nooga> as a index operator
18:56:51 <oklofok> yeah, there should be just one syntax for indexing arrays and calling functions
18:56:59 <oklofok> (not that that was what you meant ofc)
18:57:23 <ehird> ais523: how do you turn a ref into a real again?
18:57:26 <ehird> %{foo} doesn't work
18:58:02 <oklofok> (is it a form of sarcasm to intentionally misunderstand something and agree, to tell someone you disagree with them?)
18:58:57 <oklofok> (actually i guess that's kinda obvious)
18:59:09 <ais523> ehird: into a real what?
18:59:19 <ehird> %{MESSAGES} doesn't work
18:59:21 <ais523> %$ref if the ref is stored in $ref
18:59:25 <nooga> please inform me when your discussion will achieve level that'd be suitably low to invite me again
19:00:03 <ehird> ais523: it's stored in a constant
19:00:40 <ais523> ehird: %{MESSAGES()}, I suspect
19:00:53 <ais523> which you could also write as %&MESSAGES
19:01:04 <ais523> constants are IIRC implemented as functions returning a constant value
19:01:33 <ais523> how weird and inconsistent of Perl
19:01:48 <ehird> % ./hello-world --help
19:01:48 <ehird> Unknown option: help
19:01:49 <ehird> usage: mx-run ... HelloWorld [long options...]
19:01:51 <ehird> --style One of k&r, modern
19:02:47 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style 70s
19:02:48 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style 'k&r'
19:02:52 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style modern
19:02:56 <ehird> Elliott Hird is brillant.
19:03:08 <ais523> k&r didn't have a comma in, IIRC
19:03:41 * ehird 's perl style develops further
19:03:55 <ehird> "foo" is strings you're printing out or that are otherwise for show
19:04:06 <ehird> 'foo' is for things like defaults, is => 'ro', hash keys, arguments to modules, etc
19:04:54 <ehird> i don't even know why
19:07:01 <ais523> TAEB had implicit is=>'ro' for ages
19:07:03 <ais523> but they removed it again
19:07:10 <ais523> actually, it was implicit is=>'rw'
19:07:30 <ehird> http://pastie.org/458830.txt?key=n2prm1hae8gvnrcpvvmuca β Unholy best practices perl h ello world.
19:07:55 <ehird> Needs some word on the error it gives when you pass an unknown style; you get a stack backtrace.
19:08:14 <AnMaster> ais523, any progress on Feather
19:09:19 <ais523> not really, other than more thoughts
19:09:21 <ais523> I have no code or spec to show
19:10:47 <AnMaster> "RAM memory of 96 MBytes is recommended to run OTP on NT. A system with less than 64 Mbytes of RAM is not recommended." <-- hard to believe this is actually part of the documentation for a program released this month.
19:10:57 <AnMaster> I guess no one looked at that part for years
19:11:51 <ehird> AnMaster: have you ever read emacs documentation?
19:12:01 <ehird> If you have "pointer keys", you may use them to navigate the text.
19:12:04 <ehird> If you have a rich terminal, ...
19:12:10 <ehird> If you have a graphical display environment, ...
19:12:13 <ehird> shit like that's all over the tutorial
19:12:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yes some of those sound familiar
19:12:37 <ehird> no. it's really not
19:12:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't ssh to servers a lot?
19:12:47 <ehird> that's not comparable
19:12:53 <ehird> also, you're meant to use tramp
19:12:57 <ehird> using emacs remotely is discouraged
19:13:20 <ehird> how can you not know about tramp?
19:13:28 <ehird> it lets you edit remote files with a local emacs
19:13:51 <ehird> it's in the core...
19:13:57 -!- WangZeDong has changed nick to Slereah.
19:14:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I think distro split it out then
19:15:36 <AnMaster> http://erlang.org/doc/embedded/part_frame.html is rather funny to read. Like a blast from the past.
19:16:26 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % time ./hello-world>/dev/null
19:16:28 <ehird> ./hello-world > /dev/null 0.67s user 0.05s system 95% cpu 0.756 total
19:16:30 <ehird> ais523: do you think that's slow enough?
19:16:36 <ehird> heh, gnu hello is in macports's mail category
19:16:42 <ehird> Because it is protected by the GNU General Public License,
19:16:42 <ehird> users are free to share and change it.
19:16:53 <ehird> AnMaster: you don't know?
19:16:58 <ehird> -t, --traditional use traditional greeting format
19:16:59 <ehird> -n, --next-generation use next-generation greeting format
19:17:00 <nooga> embedded solaris sounds fun
19:17:01 <ehird> -m, --mail print your mail
19:17:05 <ehird> (it actually reads your mail.)
19:17:17 <AnMaster> ehird, it is not in gentoo portage
19:17:21 <ehird> AnMaster: complain!
19:17:22 <ais523> GNU Hello is used as a test of packaging and build processes
19:17:32 <ehird> AnMaster: GNU hello is a vital program!
19:17:37 <ais523> so it's got very bloated with people testing improvements
19:17:49 <ais523> it is in fact vital, not to have installed, but as somewhere for people to learn packaging
19:17:52 <ehird> ais523: it's a test of how much the gnu project can inadvertently describe itself
19:18:36 <ehird> macports only has 2.1
19:19:23 <nooga> macports=darwin ports?
19:19:32 <ehird> darwin ports was the name in, uh, 2005?
19:23:41 <AnMaster> supervisor_bridge makes no sense
19:26:38 <nooga> Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.2 [source] [hipe]
19:26:50 <nooga> why is it called an emulator?
19:27:14 <AnMaster> nooga, why not. It is a virtual machine though.
19:27:26 <AnMaster> it won't be able to run efunge
19:27:32 <AnMaster> Erlang R13B (erts-5.7.1) [source] [64-bit] [rq:1] [async-threads:4] [hipe] [kernel-poll:true]
19:27:32 -!- ais523_ has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
19:27:47 <AnMaster> nooga, get a newer one lots of reasons.
19:28:23 <nooga> nah, i'm just reading papers from erlang.org
19:28:54 <AnMaster> nooga, which one mentioned hipe btw
19:29:37 <nooga> http://erlang.org/doc/getting_started/part_frame.html
19:30:03 <AnMaster> it uses those horrible frames after all
19:30:22 <nooga> just closed the window, sry
19:30:28 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style
19:30:28 <ehird> Option style requires an argument
19:30:29 <ehird> usage: mx-run ... HelloWorld [long options...]
19:30:31 <ehird> --style One of 70s, bizarro, k&r, modern, scrambled, suicidal, verbose
19:30:59 <ehird> % ./hello-world --style bizarro
19:31:07 <AnMaster> ehird, there is an important one missing
19:31:36 <ehird> i just called an AnMaster idea good
19:31:37 <AnMaster> ehird, random as in selecting a random style, not a random string
19:31:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what are suicidal and verbose
19:36:36 <ehird> AnMaster: ais523: http://pastie.org/458855.txt?key=1newk9lsd5z1nquivta (note: two separate files, see comments)
19:37:13 <ehird> ## filename (instructions)
19:37:20 <ehird> cpanp i Modern::Perl MooseX::Declare MooseX::Getopt MooseX::Types # this gets you all dependencies apart from MooseX::Runnable
19:37:24 <ehird> for MooseX::Runnable:
19:37:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you meant comments as in "reply to this paste"
19:37:45 <ehird> cpanp i Module::Install
19:37:49 <ehird> git clone git://github.com/jrockway/moosex-runnable.git
19:37:52 <ehird> cd moosex-runnable
19:38:13 <ehird> if ./hello-world still gives an error that it can't find a module, "cpanp i" it.
19:38:18 <ehird> and yes, that's all a fuss
19:38:23 <ehird> hopefully moosex::runnable will be on cpan soon
19:38:30 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: olde english variant
19:38:38 <ehird> AnMaster: patches welcome!
19:39:01 <ehird> Hulloe, thine Worlde!
19:39:27 <ehird> And it means something incorrect in this context.
19:39:31 <ehird> But it sounds olde.
19:39:38 <ehird> "Hulloe, thine Worlde, delights thee!"
19:39:54 <ehird> But genuine olde english was very... well, regular.
19:40:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Other languages welcome, btw.
19:40:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Would "Hej, vΓ€rlden!" be correct?
19:40:44 <ehird> Translations should probably follow "Hello, world!" unless it's unidiomatic
19:40:59 <Deewiant> That'd be closer to "Hey, it's the world" or something, I think
19:41:26 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:41:27 <Deewiant> "Terve, maailma!" is the traditional one, I think
19:41:38 <AnMaster> anyway vΓ€rlden == the world, but using "vΓ€rld" there would make it completely garbage
19:41:59 <ehird> AnMaster: So you can't say Hello world in swedish? :P
19:42:00 <nooga> i always wandered how they are able to write posts like on http://www.99chan.org/gent/
19:42:17 <AnMaster> ehird, "Hello the world" sounds about as strange in English as "hej vΓ€rld" does in Swedish.
19:42:51 <Deewiant> If you want, "PÀivÀÀ, maailma"
19:43:08 <ehird> 'swedish' => sub { "Hej vΓ€rlden!" },
19:43:08 <ehird> 'finnish' => sub { "Terve, maailma!" },
19:44:23 <fizzie> In the fi version the comma is very essential; "Terve maailma!" would mean "A healthy world!"
19:44:43 <Deewiant> And yet, that's the more traditional version, I think
19:45:01 <AnMaster> <nooga> i always wandered how they are able to write posts like on http://www.99chan.org/gent/ <-- that is a reverse parody on 4chan right...
19:45:17 <Deewiant> Googling for terve maailma gives only commaless versions on the first page of results
19:45:18 <fizzie> Yes, I think it is used as a hello-world-translation; but without the comma I just parse it as "healthy".
19:45:39 <nooga> add more languages ehird
19:45:46 <ehird> nooga: gimme some then
19:45:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, "hello world" == healthy?
19:45:59 <ehird> at the rate this is going I'll be putting up Acme::HelloWorld
19:46:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: fi:terve is both the greeting and the adjective "healthy".
19:46:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "Terve" means healthy
19:46:23 <Deewiant> The greeting's underlying meaning is something like "be in good health"
19:46:30 <ehird> nooga: what about "Hello, world!"
19:46:33 <Deewiant> Of course, nobody cares about such in practice :-P
19:46:42 <Deewiant> Everybody just uses it as a greeting
19:46:59 <nooga> yea, Witaj Εwiecie!
19:47:05 <AnMaster> ehird, most languages don't use a , there. Sorry to disappoint you.
19:47:09 <ehird> AnMaster: THEY SHOULD :P
19:47:12 <AnMaster> nooga, he is trying to add a , there
19:47:13 <ehird> "Wide character in subroutine entry at HelloWorld.pm line 46."
19:47:22 <nooga> witaj, Εwiece = i order you to greet candles
19:47:41 <AnMaster> nooga, how did candles end up meaning world
19:47:51 <Deewiant> ehird: http://helloworldsite.he.funpic.de/hello.htm#Human
19:48:08 <nooga> but when you talk to the world you say 'Εwiecie'
19:48:12 <ehird> Deewiant: the fuckin' other scripts are images :-|
19:48:18 <AnMaster> nooga, but why did you say "Εwiecie" then?
19:48:23 <nooga> and Εwiece = many Εwieca, Εwieca = candle
19:48:57 <fizzie> "Moi maailma!" is another Finnish alternative which is harder to misinterpret, since 'moi' isn't really overloaded, but it's not the canonical form.
19:49:11 <Deewiant> nooga: Yes, I figured you'd get it right
19:49:24 <AnMaster> nooga, ah so the upper case S matters
19:50:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, "Hej vΓ€rlden!" is the canonical one
19:50:19 <AnMaster> "Hejsan vΓ€rlden!" would be more like: "Yo, world!"
19:50:20 <Deewiant> I am quoting the page, correct it not me
19:51:00 <AnMaster> http://helloworldsite.he.funpic.de/hello.htm#BIT
19:51:34 <ehird> AnMaster: it's by the irregular web comic guy
19:51:45 <ehird> BIT is an esoteric programming language invented by David Morgan-Mar that treats all data like C treats strings. The language is strongly typed, with two variable types: bit and address-of-a-bit.
19:51:48 <ehird> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/bit.html
19:51:49 <Deewiant> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/bit.html
19:54:48 <olsner> and there's no address-of-address?
19:54:57 <fizzie> The GNU hello translations are "Terve maailma!" for fi, "Hej, vΓ€rlden!" (with the comma) for sv.
19:55:22 <fizzie> GNU has that hello world application, you know.
19:55:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, that , makes it mean "hey, the world"
19:55:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, you can file a bug report or something. :p
19:55:42 <AnMaster> look there the world! quick before he runs away!
19:55:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: GNU hello can check your emails. :p
19:56:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: GNU hello is a vital program!
19:56:26 <AnMaster> <ais523> so it's got very bloated with people testing improvements
19:56:26 <AnMaster> <ais523> it is in fact vital, not to have installed, but as somewhere for people to learn packaging
19:56:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you read the channel...
19:56:57 <ehird> Deewiant: it really can
19:57:15 <AnMaster> ehird, does it have an info page
19:57:26 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, as I said, I'm sure.
19:57:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you mean with "what" here
19:57:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I mean, what was the point of pasting that and saying that to me
19:58:23 <fizzie> Hey, the Debian "hello" package is compiled without the mail-reading support. :/
19:58:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the thing you asked about recently had already been discussed a short while before
19:59:18 <fizzie> fIt is the most useful program evar.
19:59:26 <fizzie> That's "t" and "n" for "traditional" and "next-generation" greetings.
19:59:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So you were responding to "GNU?" from two minutes earlier? :-P
20:00:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I just didn't connect it since we had both said 2+ lines after that
20:00:32 <fizzie> There's also --greeting command-line attribute you can use to specify the greeting; so you can use "hello -g foo" instead of "echo foo" in many cases.
20:00:53 <Deewiant> I like how the Finnish one tells the user to use UTF-8
20:00:57 <Deewiant> [Huom: Parhaan nΓ€kymΓ€n saat kΓ€yttΓ€mΓ€llΓ€ UTF-8-merkistΓΆΓ€.]
20:00:57 <Deewiant> ββββββββββββββββββ
20:00:57 <Deewiant> ββββββββββββββββββ
20:01:11 <fizzie> Yeah, it's that line-drawing thing.
20:01:28 <fizzie> The translation .po files instruct translators to use UTF-8 line-drawing characters and add that note.
20:01:42 <Deewiant> But the untranslated doesn't? :-P
20:02:01 <AnMaster> / / / /__ / / /___ _ ______ _____/ /___/ / /
20:02:01 <AnMaster> / /_/ / _ \/ / / __ \ | | /| / / __ \/ ___/ / __ / /
20:02:01 <AnMaster> / __ / __/ / / /_/ / | |/ |/ / /_/ / / / / /_/ /_/
20:02:05 <AnMaster> /_/ /_/\___/_/_/\____/ |__/|__/\____/_/ /_/\__,_(_)
20:02:29 <fizzie> #. TRANSLATORS: Use box drawing characters or other fancy stuff
20:02:29 <fizzie> #. if your encoding (e.g., UTF-8) allows it. If done so add the
20:02:29 <fizzie> #. following note, please:
20:02:30 <fizzie> #. [Note: For best viewing results use a UTF-8 locale, please.]
20:02:53 <fizzie> The fi translator has left out the "please" part.
20:03:39 <Deewiant> There is no explicit "please" in Finnish.
20:03:43 <AnMaster> how do you ask someone nicely then
20:03:55 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/458885.txt?key=ppzch1ett4abshfhtoyja new release
20:03:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then what about asking rudely
20:04:00 <fizzie> It would sound rather unnatural to translate it, more like. "Ole hyvΓ€ ja ..." could do it, still.
20:04:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: You add expletives.
20:04:31 <fizzie> Actually I guess that's not even necessary rude in many contexts.
20:04:33 <AnMaster> Swedish use "tack" for both "thank you" and "please"
20:04:33 <nooga> finns are untalkative
20:04:43 <Deewiant> You see, unlike other people, Finns are polite by default. :-P
20:05:03 <ehird> Does gnu hello have all the exciting variants of mine?
20:05:05 <nooga> once i've defined that i am polite
20:05:08 <ehird> Why are you all using it then?
20:05:12 <ais523> ehird: does yours read mail?
20:05:18 <nooga> an tried to speak without all that please, here you are, etc
20:05:23 <ehird> ais523: that's for version 2
20:05:29 <nooga> and it turned out i'm extremely rude
20:05:44 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it should be a web browser
20:05:45 <ais523> nooga: is that a vim command?
20:06:02 * AnMaster wonders if there is any news group for ASCII porn
20:06:05 <nooga> no, it's deformed ":D"
20:06:16 <ehird> has anyone else got my prog to work?
20:06:27 <fizzie> GNU hello has the translations: bg, ca, da, de_DE, de, el, eo, es_AR, es, et, eu, fa, fi, fr, ga, gl, he, hr, hu, id, it, ja, ka, ko, lv, nb, nl, nn, pl, pt_BR, pt, ro, ru, sk, sl, sr, sv, tr, uk, vi, zh_CN, zh_TW.
20:06:34 <ehird> fizzie: those aren't variants
20:06:44 <fizzie> Sure, it was again just a comment, not a reply.
20:06:49 <ehird> % ./hello-world --style random
20:06:49 <ehird> Hulloe, thine Worlde, delights thee!
20:06:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you should mark all the English ones with english, like english-modern
20:06:58 <AnMaster> then have a similar set for each language
20:07:00 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, the language ones are just a variant
20:07:11 <ehird> It's a bit anglocentric :P
20:07:32 <ehird> AnMaster: translated versions would translate the variants to their language, and then remove their language as a variant and add english
20:07:50 <ehird> that way the user gets a lot in their own language
20:07:58 <ehird> ais523: do you know latin?
20:08:35 <ais523> ehird: I have a GCSE in it
20:08:45 <ehird> ais523: good, what's "Hello, world!"? :-P
20:09:09 <fizzie> The ISO-639 code for latin is "la"; it seems that GNU hello doesn't have that translation at all. How faily.
20:09:22 <ais523> Ave has a slightly different meaning
20:09:32 <AnMaster> ehird, semi-olde Swedish variant: "Varde hΓ€lsad du skΓΆna vΓ€rld i nΓ₯dens Γ₯r $YEAR" (yes replace $YEAR with current four digit year).
20:09:33 <Deewiant> I forget the difference between the two
20:09:38 <ais523> and I'm not entirely sure that mundus has the right meaning
20:09:45 <ehird> wasn't u=v in some form of old latin or sth?
20:09:45 <ais523> Deewiant: Ave's more what you use to report to a commanding officer
20:09:56 <ehird> AnMaster: is that like "Hello in the living place of 2009"
20:10:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:10:04 <ais523> ehird: vowel u and consonental u were both written using the v glyph
20:10:10 <ais523> they were different letters, just written the same way
20:10:15 <AnMaster> ehird, literal English variant would be "Be greated, you beautiful world in the <untranslatable> year of $YEAR"
20:10:42 <ehird> what's untranslatable
20:10:51 <ehird> i mean, what does it mean
20:11:00 <ehird> and don't try any of that saphir-whorf shit on me
20:11:53 <ais523> I was wondering if it was untranslatable due to being too rude
20:12:07 <ehird> You beautiful world in the fuckassbullshitdick year of 2009!
20:12:10 <ehird> no, i don't think so
20:12:22 <ais523> I think that would be a brilliant quote
20:12:24 <Deewiant> Something like "in the Lord's year"?
20:12:29 <fizzie> The Finnish translation of "nΓ₯dens Γ₯r" is "armon vuonna", but I too don't exactly know the English one.
20:12:31 <ais523> "Be greeted, you beautiful world in fucking 2009!"
20:12:38 <AnMaster> ais523, see what Deewiant said
20:12:42 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what it would mean
20:13:00 <ehird> it's weird seeing ais523 swear :D
20:13:05 <ais523> and in English, in translates as "AD" normally, which is short for "Anno Domini", normally translated into actual English as "in the year of our lord"
20:13:05 <AnMaster> anyway it is geniuneΒ Olde Swede
20:13:14 <ais523> ehird: yep, I can, just normally don't, I don't see the point in it
20:13:38 <fizzie> Actually the free dictionary has the almost-literal translation "year of grace" too.
20:13:52 <AnMaster> ehird, do you think it is weird when I swear
20:13:53 <fizzie> "year of grace - any year of the Christian era".
20:13:58 <Deewiant> Gah, why are your dictionary lookups faster than my thoughts :-P
20:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster: not really
20:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think I do it often.
20:14:46 <GregorR> Ping pang pong poing prng poong peng
20:14:50 <AnMaster> and why has none ever got the reference so far...
20:15:10 <AnMaster> seriously go use distributed erlang!
20:15:19 <Deewiant> Getting a reference doesn't imply saying that one did
20:15:19 <ais523> is pang what you get when there isn't a pong?
20:15:40 <Deewiant> And besideswhich, I've responded "pang" to ping before without knowing that that's what Erlang does in that case :-P
20:15:42 <fizzie> So if you want to be rather literal-minded, it seems that also "-- you beautiful world in the year of grace 2009" would be passable English. At least that structure is used in the interwebs somewhere, which must mean it's correct.
20:15:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true, but did you get it.
20:15:59 <AnMaster> (test@tux)1> net_adm:ping(node()).
20:16:06 <AnMaster> (too lazy to set up two notes)
20:16:08 <fizzie> "PING? PONG!" is what mIRC used to print for server-pings in the status window.
20:16:17 <Deewiant> My second line's point was that even if I had known it I wouldn't have considered it a reference.
20:17:21 <AnMaster> ehird, reversed should be a separate option. Since you can reverse any of the variants
20:17:37 <ehird> AnMaster: reversing all the variants isn't really t hat intersting
20:17:47 <ehird> i just put the reversed variant in for completeness
20:17:48 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but you wanted bloat
20:17:55 <fizzie> I had my ircII scripted to print that "PING? PONG!" message too, because I had to know when the server ping happened in order to have enough time to disconnect the modem and redial without getting a ping-timeout from IRC. (It was PPP with a static IP and I got it to keep the interface up.)
20:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird, having more reversed variants == more complete
20:18:25 <ehird> !dlrow, olleH is common
20:18:33 <ehird> !noom ,llewrraF isn't
20:18:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, implement utf-8 parsing in fungot!
20:18:48 <fungot> AnMaster: is. absorb it on my door, which was one, will terminate abnormally or otherwise fail operate correctly.
20:18:54 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
20:18:54 <fizzie> Fungot doesn't do utf-8 in brainfuck input; the cells are one-byte anyway.
20:19:04 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
20:19:32 <fizzie> Okay, it doesn't do utf-8 anywhere, but it doesn't really show up in other places. :p
20:19:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> !dlrow, olleH is common <-- yeah. In befunge.
20:20:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes no string splitting in underload...
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20:23:05 <ehird> ^scramble Hello, world!
20:23:34 <AnMaster> yeah my client tries to guess encoding
20:24:02 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the scrambled one isn't common I think
20:24:06 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
20:24:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, still that >> vs 2< bug
20:25:21 <ehird> so anyone managed to run my prog yet
20:27:25 <fizzie> Yes, haven't had time to fix it yet. It's strange that I hadn't noticed that bug; obviously I don't do much testing.
20:31:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't planned to do it, too much work with this moose thing
20:31:22 <AnMaster> plain perl and I might have done it
20:31:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Barely any perl script works with NO cpan stuff
20:31:37 <ehird> if ais523 didn't write it
20:31:45 <ehird> problem is tha tMooseX::Runnable isn't in cpan yet.
20:31:52 <AnMaster> ehird, sure but at least common ones
20:32:02 <ehird> AnMaster: "cpanp i Modern::Perl MooseX::Declare MooseX::Getopt MooseX::Types" will get you most of the way in one shot.
20:32:17 <ehird> Also, Moose is common
20:35:28 <GregorR> Hey, you can't do two in a row!
20:35:37 <ehird> GregorR: I did, and I feel kind of bad about it :(
20:37:20 <Deewiant> I did it with plain cpan and it worked fine.
20:37:38 <ehird> But I said AnMaster.
20:37:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Did you do the git dance?
20:37:57 <ehird> 19:37 ehird: cpanp i Module::Install
20:37:57 <ehird> 19:37 ehird: git clone git://github.com/jrockway/moosex-runnable.git
20:37:58 <ehird> 19:37 ehird: cd moosex-runnable
20:38:00 <ehird> 19:37 ehird: perl Makefile.PL
20:38:04 <ehird> 19:38 ehird: make install
20:38:06 <ehird> 19:38 ehird: if ./hello-world still gives an error that it can't find a module, "cpanp i" it.
20:38:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm talking to Deewiant.
20:38:23 <nooga> ehird: long, hard english word please... testing speech synthesiser
20:38:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: I'm talking to Deewiant.
20:38:33 <ehird> nooga: antidisestablishmentarianism
20:38:34 <Deewiant> nooga: Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
20:38:45 <GregorR> nooga: Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.
20:38:48 <ehird> Deewiant: While I'm at it, latest version: http://pastie.org/458917.txt?key=d9dsr9gkycblxacz9x2qxg
20:38:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you look that one up
20:39:07 <ehird> why would you have to look supercalifragilisticexpialidocious u
20:39:20 <Deewiant> Sesquipedalian words are easy to remember.
20:40:26 <fizzie> Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is a tvtropes trope; that's the only use so far I've seen.
20:40:32 <AnMaster> nooga, what about olde English. Thy shalt notte take listhen to a speecth synth saying this.
20:40:52 <nooga> crashed my virtualbox
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20:41:15 <Deewiant> fizzie: Sounds like one of my old googlewhacks
20:41:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I refuse to read on tvtroupes. Take too much time.
20:41:42 <AnMaster> it is a tl;dr where d is "did" in this case.
20:41:43 <Deewiant> I still have a text document containing 67 pairs of words that were once googlewhacks
20:42:29 <GregorR> I don't think thingamabob is a real word, although it is a very commonly said one :P
20:42:48 <Deewiant> These are only the ones that were accepted by googlewhack.com; it uses (used?) dictionary.com to check them
20:42:58 <Deewiant> Thingamabob is in dictionaries
20:43:12 <GregorR> I remember one I got on googlewack, but it's not a googlewhack anymore :(
20:43:49 <Deewiant> otorhinolaryngological astronauts
20:43:50 <ehird> promiscuous neodarwinism :D
20:44:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: Based on the number of results for those nowadays, the internets truly were smaller back then.
20:44:34 * ehird tries to get one with googlewhacking in
20:44:41 <ehird> not "googlewhacking presbyterians" :-(
20:44:52 <Deewiant> Oh, there's an honorary mention for exactly 666 results
20:45:05 <Deewiant> It's much harder to googlewhack these days.
20:45:29 <Deewiant> Google indexes x*10000 pages instead of x.
20:46:01 <ehird> not "polyhedral frightening"
20:46:02 <Deewiant> Also, Google does spelling correction.
20:46:21 <ehird> not "polyhedral acupuncture" either
20:46:29 <ehird> ais523: those aren't in the dictionary
20:46:35 <Deewiant> And we're working with dictionary words.
20:46:45 <ais523> I thought ecru was a real word
20:46:50 <ehird> not "acupunctural pokemon" either
20:46:51 <ais523> and DOBELA's a real word in this channel
20:47:02 <Deewiant> Not in the dictionary, though, which is what counts.
20:48:38 <ehird> "polyhedral dancemaker"
20:48:55 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=polyhedral+acupunctural+dancemaker&btnG=Search 2 words but 3 results
20:49:57 <Deewiant> The spelling correction is making this a real pain.
20:50:05 <Deewiant> "Crescentic" matches "crescent" -> 1000s of results.
20:50:27 <Deewiant> mugwumpery's vividest -> 2 results, darn.
20:50:46 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=monk-jumping+wampeter&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
20:50:48 <ehird> this is impossible
20:51:09 <Deewiant> You'll note wampeter doesn't actually appear in the top result.
20:51:21 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=unknown+moveritis&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
20:51:46 <ehird> Deewiant: where you can't stop being a mover!
20:51:58 <ehird> "unknown malt-tickler" has 733 results
20:52:39 <ehird> "polyhedral acupunctural-tickler" has 152; clearly my word choices suck
20:53:20 <Deewiant> Results 1 - 2 of about 0 for mugwumpish redcar.
20:53:44 <Deewiant> You'd think it'd say "about 2".
20:53:50 <Deewiant> Like it does for mugwumpish permittivity.
20:54:14 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 4,650 for eucharistic acupuncture. (0.51 seconds)
20:55:27 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 166 for two resultitis. (0.23 seconds)
20:55:57 <Deewiant> Let's see if Googlewhack.com accepts it
20:56:07 <ehird> Deewiant: What is it? :O
20:57:12 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 1,380 for neologistic poltergeist. (0.13 seconds)
20:57:16 * GregorR can't stop watching Happy Tree Friends.
20:57:22 <GregorR> Even though it makes me hate life :P
20:57:44 <fizzie> Wordlists are annoying.
20:58:03 <Deewiant> They, too, are much more promiscuous than when I was last whacking.
20:58:16 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 4,710 for promiscuous wordlist. (0.65 seconds)
20:58:19 <fizzie> Results 1 - 10 of about 24 for zygotic gastrolavage; and *all* those seem to be wordlists.
20:58:29 <Deewiant> Yep, most of my results are only wordlists now.
20:58:36 <Deewiant> Googlewhack rejects wordlists, BTW.
20:58:40 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 1,330 for embarrasment-wrought designation. (0.26 seconds)
20:59:15 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 4,090 for eukaryotic ambassador. (0.25 seconds)
20:59:18 <Deewiant> The thing to do is get something with very few results, look for a non-wordlist and try to match only that result
20:59:29 <GregorR> ehird: Except that all ambassadors are eukaryotic :P
20:59:40 <GregorR> ehird: Although that's not the first word I'd think of to describe them.
20:59:57 <Deewiant> Damn you, people.sc.fsu.edu/~burkardt/datasets/words/wordlist.txt!
21:00:12 <Deewiant> That thing's given me at least 5 two-results
21:02:43 <ehird> Results 1 - 5 of 5 for eukarytoic misunderstandment. (0.24 seconds)
21:03:38 <ais523> Your search - -the -a - did not match any documents.
21:03:47 <ais523> I was going for an anti-Googlewhack
21:03:53 <ais523> but I bet Google doesn't do them
21:04:05 <ais523> besides, there blatantly aren't any
21:06:43 <Deewiant> Argh, now Googlewhack sees 0 for my whack.
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21:08:29 <AnMaster> <ais523> besides, there blatantly aren't any
21:08:55 <AnMaster> did you restrict it to "English pages"
21:09:05 <ais523> I mean, I'm sure there are at least four websites which have mutually disjoint sets of words
21:09:45 <ais523> ehird: explain to AnMaster, please?
21:09:58 <ehird> ais523: sorry, psychologist says I'm not allowed to do that any more
21:10:07 <ehird> apparently it's very important
21:10:12 <AnMaster> but what is "mutually disjoint sets of words"
21:10:17 <ais523> well, by my search of -the -a, can you guess what I meant by antigooglewhack?
21:10:51 <AnMaster> ais523, but I'm saying there is such pages. Most Swedish ones wouldn't have either for example.
21:12:56 <fizzie> I assume the "aren't any" meant that there aren't any antigooglewhacks, not that there aren't any pages without "the" and "a".
21:13:23 <AnMaster> maybe it won't try to do hits like that if there is no positive part ot match on
21:15:51 <Deewiant> Gah, Googlewhack needs to start using the same Google I'm using
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21:16:40 <fizzie> "Sorry, Google does not serve more than 1000 results for any query. (You asked for results starting from 222333444.)" That's very limited.
21:16:50 <Deewiant> Yay, got one which it sees but it's a wordlist
21:17:02 <Deewiant> I think I'll be satisfied with that
21:17:16 <fizzie> "Results 1 - 10 of about 17,710,000,000 for a"; I was hoping it'd let me browse all those 17 short-scale-billion pages.
21:17:18 <ais523> what's the point in claiming there's billions of results if we can't see them all?
21:17:44 <Deewiant> You can see them all with different queries
21:18:06 <fizzie> But I'd like them ranked in the relevance to the query "a".
21:18:09 <Deewiant> And so that you can googlefight, of course.
21:18:43 <fizzie> Also funny that if you do start=1000000000 and it gives that message; but for start=2000000000 it prints results 1-10 and ignores start.
21:19:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, err: " Results 1 - 10 of about 16,070,000,000 for a. (0.24 seconds) "
21:19:35 <AnMaster> it varies each time I hit search
21:19:41 <Deewiant> Results 1 - 10 of about 31,560,000,000 for a. (0.05 seconds)
21:19:49 <Deewiant> Gah, where did those two lines come from
21:19:59 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 4,750,000,000 for an [definition]. (0.18 seconds)
21:20:08 <Deewiant> Results 1 - 10 of about 8,250,000,000 for an
21:20:19 <Deewiant> My Google is twice as good as yours
21:20:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, twice as many irrelevant results you mean
21:21:05 <Deewiant> Yahoo wins: 1 - 10 of 31,600,000,000 for a
21:21:06 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 2,660,000,000 for google. (0.19 seconds)
21:21:20 <fizzie> Curious fact: start=1073741824 (which is 2^30) is the largest number it "accepts" (in the sense that it complains instead of showing results 1-10).
21:21:20 <Deewiant> Results 1 - 10 of about 2,670,000,000 for google. (0.06 seconds)
21:21:40 <Deewiant> Yahoo: 1 - 10 of 4,560,000,000 for google (About) - 0.04 s
21:22:17 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 2,460,000,000 for yahoo [definition]. (0.29 seconds)
21:22:45 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 6,480 for cfunge. (0.18 seconds)
21:22:56 <AnMaster> I think I had 0 results when I selected that name
21:22:56 <Deewiant> 1 - 10 of 7,360,000,000 for yahoo (About) - 0.04 s |
21:23:12 <Deewiant> 1 - 10 of 10,200 for cfunge (About) - 0.25 s
21:23:51 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 1,500 for efunge. (0.12 seconds)
21:24:02 <Deewiant> 1 - 10 of 186 for efunge (About) - 0.21 s
21:24:46 <fizzie> My google gave just: Results 1 - 10 of about 2,440 for cfunge. It's a anti-befungeist.
21:24:58 <Deewiant> You've been training it poorly
21:24:59 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 125,000 for ccbi. (0.21 seconds)
21:25:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's the conforming concurrent befunge-98 interpreter
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21:26:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I always try to select a name with less than 10 hits for new projects
21:26:01 <fizzie> Also "Did you mean: clunge" sounds somewhat... disparaging. The connotations are "clunky" and "kludge", at least for me.
21:26:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so "Conference of Catholic Bishops of India" was added later
21:27:51 <Deewiant> CCBI was a rename so I might not have been careful there.
21:28:03 <Deewiant> The long form is googlable, FWIW.
21:28:19 <AnMaster> !befunge returns same results as befunge
21:28:34 <Deewiant> befunge risc and it's the first result.
21:28:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you renamed from the long form
21:28:57 <Deewiant> From "dcbefunge" and possibly something else before/after that
21:29:27 <Deewiant> Deewiant's / D, not sure which, Concurrent Befunge
21:29:43 <lifthrasiir> google for 26^4 combinations, and select the least frequent term
21:29:49 <Deewiant> Might have been conformant but I think it was concurrent.
21:30:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, dcbefunge should have been a befunge implemented in dc(1)
21:30:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, that was a very fizy comment
21:30:37 <Deewiant> Is dc(1) powerful enough for that?
21:31:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not saying it would be easy though
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22:09:18 <Sgeo> "[MY STATE]: [MY COUNTY] health officials announce one suspected swine influenza case under investigation."
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23:01:16 <ehird> "I think that the average coder gets about 10-20 lines of code written in a day."
23:01:19 <ehird> Bit of a low estimate...
23:06:17 <Slereah> Don't say such things. First day at the lab tomorrow :(
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23:12:37 <Slereah> Where I have to code shit and stuff
23:13:57 <ehird> Slereah: wait but it's the LHC isn't it
23:14:15 <ehird> if it is um just don't fuck it up okay
23:15:12 <Slereah> I'll make it shoot holes in your pots and pans
23:15:22 <Slereah> I just do theoretical models, don't worry
23:15:38 <ehird> Slereah: why are you clever
23:16:36 <ehird> well he did his study thing on the lhc
23:16:39 <ehird> so i assume it's related
23:17:10 <Slereah> I get an internship for two months starting tomorrow
23:17:18 <Slereah> At the local lab, Subatech
23:17:25 <Slereah> Who works on some parts of the LHC project
23:17:33 <AnMaster> I always thought Slereah was some 4chan /b/tard. I guess I was wrong.
23:17:35 <Slereah> http://www-subatech.in2p3.fr/ < thar
23:21:48 <Slereah> Remember that 4chan are nice people, too
23:21:48 <Slereah> http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3765/30255d5e4e.jpg
23:23:55 <Sgeo> If you make a mistake that means the models say we won't die when we will die, I'll just have to watch the LHC kill you before dying myself
23:24:06 <Sgeo> </failed-attempt-at-humor?
23:24:24 <ehird> that's not just failed
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23:31:51 <Slereah> I think they'll check up at the end
23:39:48 <AnMaster> Sgeo, are you trying to suggest it was humor.
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00:26:21 <ehird> "(The paradox is alleviated if "interesting" is instead defined objectively: for example, as of November 2008, the smallest natural number that does not have its own Wikipedia entry is 215.)"
00:26:25 <ehird> and now it has one!
00:26:35 <ehird> ... it redirects to 210, though
00:29:35 <ehird> anyone know if there's a defigletizer?
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00:35:26 <ehird> Deewiant: Any googlebomb luck?
00:35:30 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 167 for polytypic ziggurat. (0.44 seconds)
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00:36:57 <ehird> GregorR: which covers 210-219
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02:56:49 <GregorR> "I lost 15 pounds in a fortnight using acai"
02:57:08 <Slereah> You lost the ability to use the metric system
02:57:35 <Slereah> Are you going to throw horsepower and faraday in the mix?
02:58:00 <GregorR> 'twas a spam subject line :P
02:58:08 <GregorR> Horsepower is perhaps the stupidest measurement ever.
02:58:26 <GregorR> Because horses are so consistent?
02:58:26 <Slereah> It's from an era where that was a well known frame of reference
02:58:49 <Slereah> Do you know what a mean value is
02:59:04 <GregorR> It's a value that doesn't treat its friends respectfully.
03:00:33 <GregorR> Fine, I'll change my statement, from
03:00:37 <GregorR> <GregorR> Horsepower is perhaps the stupidest measurement ever.
03:00:41 <GregorR> <GregorR> Horsepower is perhaps the stupidest measurement presently.
04:06:27 <calamari> I'll see your horsepower and raise you a library of congress
04:14:14 <kerlo> The helen is a pretty stupid measurement.
04:15:12 <kerlo> Then again, nobody uses it.
04:17:27 <kerlo> It's the amount of beauty required to launch a thousand ships and burn the topless towers of Ilium.
04:18:45 <kerlo> It's considered ill-defined due to the passing of an ordinance requiring all towers of Ilium to be fully clothed.
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06:30:03 <kerlo> You know, I once wanted to write a compiler from C to Subleq, but I think it would be easier to compile from Haskell instead.
06:44:21 <GregorR> It would be easier (although far from easy) to write one from MIPS.
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10:31:57 <oklofok> ef is such an elegant language
10:39:52 <oklofok> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/ef.txt <<< i added some elegance. god it's elegant.
10:40:28 <oklofok> it used to be about the fixed points, but i'm thinking i like the supersmart pointers even better.
10:45:19 <AnMaster> GOOD: 2k ;;;5 executes 5 thrice
10:45:33 <AnMaster> and that p writes something between the k and the p
10:45:45 <AnMaster> what will be the next instruction to execute after the k finishes
10:45:51 <oklofok> btw AnMaster did you see how elegant it was?
10:46:05 <oklofok> don't you just love the intricacies of how the pointers work.
10:47:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: k specs say that the fetch happens once, not between every execution
10:48:29 <Deewiant> And when you're done executing the k you move on as normal.
10:48:31 <oklofok> AnMaster: so it skips from first to second, then proceeds to third, skips to first, proceeds to second, skips to third and then moves on the 5 and executes?
10:48:59 <oklofok> that's one sick test case.
10:49:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so k will execute the instruction p wrote next then
10:49:58 <GreaseMonkey> my thinking: if you p'd on the p, it would probably run the p x amount of times and then it would land on what the p has next cycle
10:50:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes it makes sense. But I think it is actually UNDEF.
10:51:16 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, they are easy to implement too.
10:51:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, a lot of k is somewhat UNDEF according to the specs; I'm including that e-mail exchange with Pressey into the specs here
10:51:22 <GreaseMonkey> i mean for funge-109... what benefit would it have?
10:51:50 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, a bit more well speced, I'm reworking it currently.
10:51:53 <Deewiant> The benefit is that you can write spaces on top of characters with p thus removing them from the string
10:52:22 <Deewiant> Or at least, *a* benefit is :-P
10:53:01 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, so outputting a binary file would be impossible?
10:53:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, he means "SGML NULs"
10:53:38 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, why not the spaces.
10:53:52 <GreaseMonkey> because if you needed two spaces, you have to shove a in
10:54:09 <oklofok> btw is ; an actual command at all? i mean shouldn't 2k ;;;5 execute ; twice, and then do 5 just once?
10:54:22 <Deewiant> GreaseMonkey: "foo "::::"bar" <- "foo bar"
10:54:34 <Deewiant> oklofok: ; and space are markers, not instructions.
10:54:37 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, isn't understood by funge.
10:54:53 <oklofok> Deewiant: right, i thought it might be something like that
10:55:45 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, are you just trying to skip the needed two line logic of handling multiple spaces?
10:56:06 <GreaseMonkey> nope, as this would probably also take up as much code
10:56:18 <fizzie> I don't like k. Did it go so that "2kX" executes X thrice (because the k executes it twice, and then it is done normally once), but "0kX" somehow skips X completely?
10:56:52 <oklofok> that's why i didn't get it
10:56:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes. 109 will fix that
10:57:02 <Deewiant> The rules make sense, they're just nonsensical.
10:57:05 <AnMaster> so the instruction after is always skipped.
10:57:13 <GreaseMonkey> my reasoning for this is if someone wants to attack "foo ":::"bar", then they may get a quotation mark
10:57:48 <oklofok> Deewiant: they make sense kinda like assuming undef doesn't crash the interp makes sense, perhaps?
10:58:09 <Deewiant> oklofok: No, they make a different kind of sense
10:58:14 <fizzie> The rules are also very interpretative. The part of 0k skipping is written as "Note that some instructions don't make much sense within the context of k unless you include zero as one of the possibilities for how many times the instruction is repeated. For example, no matter how many times after the first time k execute ^, the result is the same. However, you may pass a zero count to k, and the ^ instruction will not be executed; this can be a valuable behavi
10:58:21 <oklofok> Deewiant: i thought they make a rather similar kind of sense.
10:58:41 <Deewiant> The k specs aren't very interpretative IMO
10:58:53 <Deewiant> On the contrary, you have to read them 100% literally to get it right :-P
10:59:13 <fizzie> But that's "valuable behaviour" even without the skipping, if you assume the last "will not be executed" means "will not be executed by k"; I mean, you can do 0k^ and it would turn up either at k or the ^, depending on the input.
10:59:31 <fizzie> (That is, if k would never skip the next command.)
10:59:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, except. C. Pressy answered on this with his own small test suite thingy.
11:00:02 <fizzie> Why do you always write the surname worng? Pressey.
11:00:59 <AnMaster> also, please don't complicate it further.
11:01:14 <AnMaster> that means lots of interpreters have to change *again*
11:01:15 * oklofok complicates it further: pressaye
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11:03:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually I don't agree about: 'v041k ;;;p
11:03:44 <AnMaster> assuming that is the whole program
11:04:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes true, but it also puts one on the first ; as far as I can see
11:04:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the 1 is a parameter to k isn't it?
11:05:05 <Deewiant> And then you call p with (4,0) and 'v'
11:05:51 <Deewiant> That puts it on the middle ; which means it gets skipped.
11:06:06 <AnMaster> I think k will resume at p after
11:08:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where does it say it won't
11:08:10 <AnMaster> I agree there is nothing explicitly saying it *will*
11:08:19 <AnMaster> but it makes just as much sense
11:08:25 <Deewiant> When you execute an instruction, you continue to the next one as normal.
11:08:32 <Deewiant> You don't arbitrarily skip instructions.
11:08:41 <fizzie> Since the p is executed "at k", I personally think it stands to reason that it's from there, and after the execution of k (and indirectly p), that it continues to look for the next operation.
11:09:08 <fizzie> With that always-skip-the-next-instruction k, it would make sense to continue from the p onwards, though.
11:09:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok that argument makes sense I guess.
11:10:05 <fizzie> It's just sad that with so many k-related things it is possible to write sensible-sounding arguments for contradictory things.
11:12:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, however ccbi seems to skip it too.
11:16:39 <AnMaster> nor does cfunge it seems in fact.
11:16:47 <AnMaster> the code was just too confusing :D
11:17:51 <AnMaster> in other news the thread supervisor is almost working in efunge now. Only issue is that it quit doesn't work in that branch atm.
12:07:23 * kerlo ponders bit widths and the amounts of memory they can access
12:09:25 <kerlo> 1-bit: 2 bits. 2-bit: 1 byte. 4-bit: 8 bytes. 8-bit: 256 bytes. 16-bit: 128 kilobytes. 32-bit: 16 gigabytes. 64-bit: 32 whatever-comes-after-peta-bytes.
12:09:45 <kerlo> Good to know if you're writing Subleq programs, maybe.
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12:29:27 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMWw1Zw <-- fancy supervision tree for efunge :D
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13:32:30 <ais523> and what's that a link to?
13:32:33 <ais523> I'm on a public computer atm
13:32:40 <ais523> so I /especially/ don't want to click links at random
13:32:45 <AnMaster> ais523, of efunge supervision tree
13:33:22 <ais523> I still think this is an insane idea, but I don't begrudge you for it
13:33:30 <ais523> it's only slightly more insane than porting INTERCAL to embedded systems
13:34:10 <ais523> just, distributed Befunge
13:34:39 <AnMaster> ais523, ah that. Well that is a step after I get it working on a single node. Btw <0.1.2> are erlang pids, for the unnamed processes.
13:34:58 <AnMaster> just that tree shows names if there are any
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13:37:35 <AnMaster> ais523, and distributed would just be 1) make sure right server run on the right node (you need all IO to be channeled through one server on one node for example) 2) some changes to funge space. 3) possibly similar changes as for funge space to some other daemons.
13:38:10 <AnMaster> it would be some work, but not infeasible.
13:39:09 <AnMaster> ais523, currently I'm trying to make the thread supervisor work correctly. It has some issues atm.
13:39:09 <ais523> I think you spelt it correctly
13:39:29 <ais523> strange, the spellchecker here doesn't like "spelt". Or "spellchecker". It doesn't mind "infeasible", though.
13:44:29 * ais523 drops a link to http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/Z/Zawinskis-Law.html in here for ehird
13:44:45 <ais523> I wonder if the GNU people knew of that law when they went and bloated hello(1)?
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13:49:20 <AnMaster> in that case it is extra ironic...
13:49:56 <AnMaster> Which could read mail in version something or later
13:50:11 <AnMaster> ais523, you seriously didn't know who jwz was?
13:50:26 <ais523> err, no, I tend not to care about names all that much
13:50:29 <AnMaster> I mean he is as famous as djb. By initials.
13:50:39 <ais523> I only vaguely know who djb is
13:50:51 <ais523> responsible for djbdns
13:51:08 <ais523> and possibly qmail, although I'm not entirely sure whether that was him or someone else without looking it up
13:51:11 <AnMaster> djb: author of qmail, djbdns, and a lot more. Famous enough to be known by initials.
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14:27:00 <oklopol> wait actually i don't care, djbdns sounds like something dns related, not that i can think of anything dns related that could be complicated enough to be famous.
14:27:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, a secure and stable MTA.
14:27:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, djbdns is a dns server.
14:28:00 <Deewiant> ais523: You probably had an American dictionary on that spellchecker.
14:28:16 <ais523> Deewiant: ah, possibly
14:28:18 <oklopol> okay, both of those sound incredibly trivial
14:28:31 <Deewiant> ais523: Since they'd write it as "spelled"
14:28:33 * AnMaster is stuck in a twisty maze of licenses all different.
14:28:52 <ais523> well, BSD is compatible with more or less anything
14:29:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: remember to keep your left hand on the wall
14:29:13 <AnMaster> ais523, GPLv3 and EPL (which is similar to MPL)
14:29:23 <ais523> ugh, that's a rather nasty mic
14:29:30 <oklopol> unless it's an infinite maze, then you know iterative deepening.
14:29:37 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and I'm wondering if it is legal.
14:30:23 <ais523> probably not, unless the EPL's terms are a subset of the GPLv3's
14:30:29 <oklopol> does maze actually convey a planar graph btw, or is it more general?
14:31:20 <ais523> you can have nonplanar mazes, although they're more difficult
14:31:23 <AnMaster> ais523, well you are allowed to link a GPL program to closed source libc aren't you? So as long as I use EPL as a standard library there should be no issue. (And I do use erlang's standard library, there is no way around that.)
14:31:25 <ais523> Enigma 1.1 has a 4D maze in it
14:31:46 <ais523> AnMaster: ooh, the GPL with closed source libc is a huge raging argument
14:31:49 <oklopol> also 3d and 4d mazes are both arbitrary graphs.
14:31:58 <ais523> oklopol: I think nonplanar mazes are still considered mazes
14:32:14 <AnMaster> ais523, issue now is, the standard erlang supervisor module doesn't cut it for the thread supervisor. I need to customise some internals for it to work properly.
14:32:22 <AnMaster> So I need to distribute a modified version of it.
14:33:48 <oklopol> well, i guess what i said was rather obvious, planar is pretty much defined by being a 2d-maze, and not bigger
14:33:58 <oklopol> bigger in amount of dimensions
14:34:02 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... how else would you run open source apps on windows or OS X. I mean you clearly have to link them, at some layer, kernel32.dll, syscalls or whatever, to non-open source.
14:34:04 <oklopol> i love how clearly i can say things
14:34:56 <AnMaster> <ais523> Enigma 1.1 has a 4D maze in it <-- So it changes with time. But what is the 3D bit about.
14:35:07 <AnMaster> I didn't know Enigma could do 3D.
14:35:15 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure he meant spatial dimensions
14:35:25 <ais523> AnMaster: no, 4 spatial dimensions
14:35:26 <ais523> the diagonals are used for the other two
14:35:29 <oklopol> god i hate it when people thing the fourth dimensions is time
14:35:40 <ais523> and there are lots of teleports involved in order to make everything link up correctly
14:35:47 <oklopol> that's retarded, even in physics, you should call it time.
14:36:20 <AnMaster> ais523, hm one way around would be those rare "as a special exception you are allowed to link ..."
14:36:28 <fizzie> oklopol: There's a "4D theater" in the LinnanmΓ€ki amusement park; the "fourth dimension" means they spray water on your face and vibrate the seats.
14:36:34 <AnMaster> ais523, but I would need a lawyer to write one.
14:36:37 <oklopol> blah, i can't articulate what i was about to say
14:36:51 <oklopol> but i had this point, maybe i'll tell it later.
14:37:06 <oklopol> fizzie: clearly that's 5 dimensions
14:37:08 <fizzie> (And the third comes from those shutter 3D glasses. Or maybe polarized, I've forgotten now.)
14:37:23 <oklopol> those are better described by a fourth dimensions than time is
14:37:51 <fizzie> Well, the seat-movements need more than one dimension.
14:38:08 <ais523> AnMaster: is the GPLv3 code yours?
14:38:36 <ais523> why not use a different licence, like the EPL itself?
14:38:58 <AnMaster> ais523, For the same reason you wouldn't use MPL?
14:39:00 <oklopol> fizzie: actually it's probably the "much vibration" - "no vibration" scale that's relevant.
14:39:26 <oklopol> and water is clearly separate
14:40:47 <fizzie> oklopol: Well, I dunno; it's not really "vibrate", more like "move around". I just accidentally used a bad word to describe it. Though I don't really recall exactly how it moved; it's possible it was only able to move forward/backward along one dimension, and not up/down or anything.
14:42:39 <fizzie> "4D coaster" is a type of a roller coaster, but I can't find out what sort. It seems it has something to do with rotating seats there too.
14:48:42 <fizzie> "A 4-D film (sometimes written 4D film) is a marketing term that describes an entertainment presentation system combining a 3-D film with physical effects in the theatre, which occur in synchronization with the film. Because the physical effects are expensive to set up, 4-D films are currently presented only at special venues such as theme parks and amusement parks."
14:48:50 <fizzie> Oh, it's an official term; it has a Wikipedia page.
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14:51:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, an abuse of that term.
14:53:52 <ehird> 12:49 AnMaster: in that case it is extra ironic...
14:54:00 <ehird> He supports kitchen sinks.
14:54:02 <ehird> Also, XEmacs too, man.
14:54:08 <ehird> He was there at the start of Lucid Emacs.
14:54:12 <ehird> 12:44 ais523 drops a link to http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/Z/Zawinskis-Law.html in here for ehird
14:54:20 <ehird> Plz to be linking to non-jargon-file sources in futu
14:54:36 <ais523> do you hate the Jargon File, or something?
14:54:46 <ehird> ais523: I hate what esr's done to it.
14:54:56 <ehird> I know you would be surprised to read from someone relatively unknown to you before. My name is Major Larry Downs, a member of the U.S. ARMY USARPAC Medical Team, which was deployed to Iraq in the beginning of the war in Iraq.
14:55:02 <ehird> I would like to share some highly personal classified information about my personal experience and role which I played in the pursuit of my career serving under the U.S 1st Armored which was at the fore-front of the war in Iraq.
14:56:54 <AnMaster> ehird, where did credit card come into it
14:57:32 <ehird> AnMaster: nowhere, he just told me to read a bbc article and reply saying I understood
14:57:38 <ehird> a rather bizarre start to a scam.
14:59:58 <ehird> On the subject of jwz,
15:00:03 <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/1040129.html
15:00:15 <ehird> His fingers have the power to melt alt keys on $500 keyboards.
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15:04:27 <Sgeo> Ok, I have become a twitter addict
15:04:51 <ehird> I can imagine it now. "Became a twitter addict." "PSOX." "Something AWFUL is happening on Second Life!"
15:05:11 <ehird> "Combined PSOX and Second Life." "Died happy."
15:06:23 <ehird> parseski={!x:_;(!x=='` & ! x+1 & ! x+2 : (class[])) => ! x..x+2 = [! x+1,! x+2]}
15:06:27 <ehird> oklopol: that's amazing
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15:12:37 <AnMaster> ehird, um, "died happy"... did it happen when he tried to combine all three.
15:13:01 <ehird> AnMaster: he died happy in posting the tweet to twitter about how he combined psox and second life
15:13:09 <ehird> so he did combine all three in the "Combined..." message.
15:13:25 <ehird> Today on impractical computing environments: http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/04/one_step_closer_to_a_holodeck.php
15:14:03 <AnMaster> ehird, how did he fit that in 140 chars...
15:14:13 <ehird> 15:04 ehird: I can imagine it now. "Became a twitter addict." "PSOX." "Something AWFUL is happening on Second Life!"
15:14:13 <ehird> 15:05 ehird: "Combined PSOX and Second Life." "Died happy."
15:14:19 <ehird> nothing there's over 140 characters
15:16:15 <ehird> Reading stuff about cpu-specific asm optimization is fun.
15:16:36 <ehird> Especially when it's about things like the Nehalem. We must hyperoptimise to save a nanosecond on this top of the range CPU!
15:16:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what optimization in specific.
15:16:49 <ehird> the article and comments of http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8fqgy/cmov_instruction_a_bad_idea_on_outoforder_cpus/
15:16:59 <ehird> AnMaster: what's that supposed to mean
15:17:25 <Deewiant> I read that a while back but used CMOV in dobelx64 anyway because it saves a few bytes
15:17:58 <ehird> AnMaster: but srsly wuzzat supposed to mean
15:18:22 <AnMaster> my own tests show cmov helps in some places.
15:18:25 <Deewiant> jne x; mov foo, bar; x: is a byte or two bigger than cmovne foo, bar
15:18:32 <ehird> I meant 15:16 AnMaster: Nehalem hah
15:18:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I'll let you figure that out yourself.
15:18:55 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, "AMD didn't make it, it sucks?"
15:19:18 <ehird> well I'm not telepathic yet sorry
15:22:24 <ehird> AnMaster: no hints?
15:29:56 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have seen icc put cmov in code optimised for core2 at least.
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15:30:12 <AnMaster> so clearly even intel thinks it makes sense sometimes.
15:30:17 <ehird> if you read the comments that was acknowledged
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15:39:36 <AnMaster> ehird, personally I tend to leave it to the compiler.
15:40:04 <ehird> "Reported estimates indicate that transistors at these dimensions are significantly affected by quantum tunneling."
15:40:05 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_nanometer
15:40:29 <AnMaster> ehird, how much is intel down to currently
15:41:16 <ehird> "however, Intel has already given some indications as to the nature of its process and its rough timing for 2009.[4]"
15:41:23 <ehird> Deewiant: not public
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15:41:26 <ehird> just in development
15:41:39 <Deewiant> But no complete processors, I think
15:41:41 <ehird> I guess the last few steps will be the hardest
15:41:52 <ehird> They're brushing against weird physics from what I can tell
15:42:02 <Deewiant> AMD's planning on releasing 32nm stuff in 2010
15:42:32 <ehird> We just need negative length chips.
15:42:38 <ehird> Install an Intel, get some room space back.
15:42:47 <AnMaster> ehird, the first comment is confusing. I don't see why swapping operands affected the result so much.
15:43:04 <ehird> AnMaster: branch prediction
15:43:12 <ehird> that's on a pentium 4
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15:43:21 <Deewiant> In other news: TRDS doesn't work in CCBI 2 and I have no fricking clue why
15:43:38 <ehird> i suppose the pentium 4 gnomes get confused if you give them it in in the other order
15:43:51 <ehird> and run around aimlessly for a few microseconds, bumping into each other
15:44:31 <oklofok> ehird: the ski parser works by taking the fixed point of the trivial parsings `(parsed)(parsed)
15:44:47 <oklofok> i find it a lovely paradigm
15:46:45 <oklofok> (it doesn't actually work yet, it'd need a small modification, you'd need to wrap the actual combinators in lists first, but that'd take me multiple minutes, so i'll just leave it broken for now)
15:47:05 <ehird> this track messes with my ears
15:47:22 <AnMaster> ehird, about worn out keys. How is your keyboard.
15:47:31 <ehird> AnMaster: I've never worn out a single key.
15:47:35 <oklofok> basically the correction is x:chars=>[x]
15:47:43 <ehird> Then again, I switch keyboard every few years (unintentionally)
15:47:46 <AnMaster> On mine many of the keys lack text nowdays, but no such dents as on that pic...
15:48:14 <ehird> This keyboard is a year or so old; I dropped my old version - which was identical 'cept UK not US layout - and it wouldn't turn on, so I got a replacement free from apple
15:49:00 <AnMaster> wouldn't turn on... Oh right one of the fanged ones...
15:49:09 <oklofok> my ubuter's keyboard is completely broken, but it has experienced pretty much everything from cups of coffee to frustrated humans using it as a bat.
15:49:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Bluetooth, yah.
15:49:24 <oklofok> well not completely, more like a tiny bit, but enough to be annoying to use
15:49:38 <ehird> I just want wireless power ;-)
15:49:48 <oklofok> control and left key used to be broken, but control got fixed recently when i accidentally jumped on the kb
15:50:50 <oklofok> "I dropped my old version - which was identical 'cept UK not US layout - and it wouldn't turn on" <<< what kind of crap do they sell in uk
15:50:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I just fail to see what happened to jwz's Alt key... an accident with a solder iron maybe.
15:51:09 <oklofok> first thing i do with my new things is make sure dropping them doesn't break them
15:51:13 <ehird> AnMaster: He uses emacs for everything and he's had the kb for 8 years
15:51:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems the top of the key cap is rather thick on that keyboard...
15:51:25 <ehird> And he's been typing for decades
15:51:34 <ehird> So just veeeeeeery heavy abuse
15:52:02 <ehird> AnMaster: nails scratching keys while moving around from the home row?
15:52:11 <ehird> i'll wager c and v look similar
15:52:31 <ehird> AnMaster: also, C-n
15:52:40 <ehird> maybe he hits C-m instead of enter, less movement
15:52:48 <oklofok> left and right hand movements aren't necessarily the same for keyboards, especially as they're not at all symmetric
15:53:27 <oklofok> for rightie, when moving down, you ..contract your fingers, for leftie, you more like turn your wrist
15:53:33 <oklofok> because of the way the keys are positioned
15:54:12 <fizzie> From this UltraX flat some printings have disappeared; ":" is completely gone, ";" almost, and there's only a "/" left in "A", and the left half of "S". Oh, and "M" has turned into a "V".
15:54:20 <oklofok> hmm, actually probably not.... but still.
15:54:54 <oklofok> my laptop's is in perfect shape. how embarrassing, this is an old computer.
15:55:29 <oklofok> have you heard the sex pee joke yet?
15:55:33 <ehird> (:P is rather more worrying; peeing directly out of your colon.)
15:55:33 <AnMaster> ehird, if he use C-n rather than arrow keys.
15:55:38 <ehird> oklofok: oh man is it to do with parentheses
15:56:23 <AnMaster> there is a reason I always include the - in S-expressions
15:56:32 <oklofok> ehird: i don't remember, it's a bit complicated.
15:56:48 <ehird> AnMaster: was it some advice you got off expertsexchange?
15:57:10 <AnMaster> ehird, never heard of that place. So no. Was just to reduce confusion.
15:57:16 <oklofok> serious funniness overload.
15:57:21 <ehird> AnMaster: experts exchange / expert sex change
15:57:23 <ehird> it was a joke, foo.
15:57:34 <ehird> (yes, there is an expertsexchange.com but they changed to experts-exchange)
15:57:38 <ehird> (see? its' related to your joke)
15:57:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I never heard of "experts exchange" either.
15:58:01 <oklofok> ehird: in fact, i never had a sex change.
15:58:13 <ehird> oklofok: as exchange?
15:58:13 <AnMaster> ehird, so thus your reference wasn't clear to me.
15:58:17 <ehird> you never exchanged your ass?
15:58:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well maybe he liked the donkey. Why replace it then.
15:59:07 <oklofok> ehird: no one will exchange with me :<
16:00:43 <AnMaster> I can't come up with any misinterpretation to that one that doesn't make the remaining part include a non-existent word.
16:00:58 <ehird> just assume it's a typo and fix it for them
16:01:26 <AnMaster> why should it. I mean it seems to work now.
16:01:52 <AnMaster> I guess you want to parse some non-LR(1) grammar you might need to change it.
16:02:02 <oklofok> right is lex a lexing tool?
16:02:15 <AnMaster> ah right. I mixed them up too,.
16:03:08 <AnMaster> yes, lex takes an input description file and generates a stream of tokens. Which can then be parsed by a parser for example.
16:03:25 <ehird> it takes an input description file and outputs a c file
16:03:33 <ehird> which takes bytes and outputs a stream of tokens
16:03:55 <AnMaster> it was what I *thought* though
16:04:05 <oklofok> there's a level of indirection in addition to yours, so to speak
16:04:29 <oklofok> HOW MANY O'S WOULD AN O O O IF AN O O O O O O O O
16:04:57 <oklofok> AnMaster: any excuse to flood o's
16:05:18 <oklofok> actually i have an exam on wednesday, so i should probably start reading stuff
16:05:43 <AnMaster> oklofok, assuming normal room temperature of course.
16:06:56 <oklofok> SO HAVE YOU HEARD THIS BLONDE WALKS IN BAR AND IS STUPID AND EVERYONE LAUGHS
16:07:49 <AnMaster> oklofok, there is also some inconclusive evidence that extreme humidity during extended periods can affect the result.
16:07:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
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16:30:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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17:16:36 * ais523 submits Enigma scores for April
17:29:02 * Sgeo wants Twitternomic
17:29:20 * Sgeo realizes that he has no clue how that could work
17:30:05 <ais523> Sgeo: you have to publish the entire ruleset every week
17:30:12 <ais523> therefore, it's very short]
17:31:00 <oklofok> is that specified for nomics?
17:31:32 <oklofok> was just thinking that probably wouldn't work on other planets, then realized i don't really know what a week is, arbitrary?
17:31:43 <ais523> Agora specifies weeks in terms of UTC
17:31:51 <ais523> B also specifies weeks, as being at least 12 days long, possibly longer
17:32:11 <oklofok> so not earth week necessarily
17:32:22 <oklofok> but what's the definition of week, is it historical or what?
17:32:40 <oklofok> hmm seven days i guess that's biblish.
17:33:01 <ehird> http://femto.picoup.com/
17:33:04 <AnMaster> The message would be in the timing of the messages.
17:33:06 <ehird> one letter's good enough for anyone
17:33:16 <AnMaster> and timing for encoding information
17:33:21 <ehird> AnMaster: w/ zero length you still have @references
17:33:27 <ehird> so you'd just register a bunch of dummy accounts
17:33:43 <AnMaster> I'm not familiar enough with twitter to know what @references is
17:33:49 <Sgeo> ehird, according to Twitter's counter, the @thing still counts in characters
17:33:57 <Sgeo> AnMaster, @nick refers to the user nick
17:34:01 <ehird> Sgeo: picoup is the international standard for small scale twitters
17:34:08 <ehird> and it lets you use a reference unlimitedly
17:34:09 <Sgeo> If it's the first thing in a tweet, it's a reply. If not, it's a mention
17:37:47 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
17:46:02 <AnMaster> seems like wikipedia is having issues today
17:46:17 <AnMaster> lots of timeout, missing css, missing images.
17:46:33 <AnMaster> ais523, #wikipedia didn't seem to know about it when I asked.
17:49:09 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/rcfunge98/trds.d (75%)
17:49:24 <Deewiant> 4 files changed, 255 insertions(+), 267 deletions(-)
17:49:59 <Deewiant> [fingerprints-back d13d9ba] TRDS. Forced fixes in FungeMachine and IP.
17:49:59 <Deewiant> 4 files changed, 255 insertions(+), 267 deletions(-)
17:49:59 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/rcfunge98/trds.d (75%)
17:50:06 * ais523 was wondering if rewrite was like patch, but generated patches using Markov chaining
17:50:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but what does it mean. number of lines that are different or what
17:50:35 <Deewiant> I think it just says so if a certain percentage of the lines change but I'm not sure
17:51:03 <Deewiant> Possibly also the contents, not the lines
17:51:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you fix those core bugs yet
17:51:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, the revision you pulled whenever should have them all fixed?
17:51:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there were some other in some of the test cases. Lockups and such as I mentioned.
17:51:52 <Deewiant> I ran through all of cfunge's tests this morning and none failed
17:52:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, I know, but I fixed them all before you last pulled.
17:52:08 <Deewiant> I might have only mentioned the one.
17:52:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the crash on wrong line number was the only one I remember you fixing
17:52:47 <Deewiant> LDC fixed that error message bug too :-)
18:04:02 <ehird> Deewiant: I may have an LDC/D1/Tango/rebuild environment up in a sec.
18:04:05 <ehird> So I can try ccbi2.
18:04:14 <Deewiant> Yes, I've been following your troubles. :-)
18:04:56 <ehird> But Deewiant #ldc is not Deewiant #esoteric.
18:04:59 <ehird> The latter is blissfully unaware.
18:05:55 <Deewiant> Hmm, methinks CCBI2 is now at the same level of functionality as CCBI1, minus 3DSP which is blocked on an LDC bug.
18:06:05 <ehird> You should port ccbi to a language that doesn't make me suicidal.
18:06:12 <ehird> That would be quite nice.
18:06:39 <Deewiant> CCBI is a bit too big for me to bother porting it.
18:06:51 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % rebuild hello.d -ofhello
18:06:51 <ehird> [ehird:~/Junk] % ./hello
18:06:57 <ehird> FUUUUUUUUUUUCK YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
18:07:27 * Sgeo prefers "You're winner!"
18:07:29 <ehird> Deewiant: git uri?
18:12:25 <Deewiant> Well, if you still have that old repository a 'git pull' might work now.
18:12:56 <ehird> git clone git://tar.us.to/ ccbi2?
18:13:56 <ehird> Deewiant: rebuild ccbi.rf?
18:14:20 <ais523> ooh, they've invented 500GB optical disks
18:14:31 <ehird> ais523: ooh, they've invented 1TB solid state drives
18:14:41 <ehird> Deewiant: ccbi.d(18): module flags cannot read file 'ccbi/flags.d'
18:14:43 <ehird> What what in the butt butt
18:14:49 <ais523> yes, but optical > solid state in the size impressiveness stakes, I think
18:15:03 <ehird> ais523: But solid state > optical in the useful stakes
18:15:10 <ehird> Imagine the spinning
18:15:11 <Deewiant> ehird: As AnMaster has berated me for many times, the directory has to be called ccbi.
18:15:16 <ais523> I suspect optical > solid state in the cheap stakes, though
18:15:31 <ehird> Deewiant: Wrap it all in one directory, have ccbi.rf outside of it doing -Iccbi
18:15:39 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, I know, I just haven't done it.
18:15:42 <ehird> ais523: True, $3k isn't a nice price.
18:15:50 <ais523> ehird: * soblem prolved?
18:15:50 <ehird> Deewiant: Are patches accepted?
18:16:02 <AnMaster> ehird, do not try to do ln -s . ccbi. It won't work since the produced binary is called ccbi
18:16:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it was one of the first things I tried.
18:16:45 <AnMaster> idea: express major version as the directory nest
18:16:48 <Deewiant> You /can/ tell rebuild what the binary should be called.
18:17:00 <AnMaster> like: foo 1.0 is foo/*.c foo 2.0 is foo/foo/*.c
18:17:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not sure about that yet
18:17:31 <Deewiant> The number of dots before the extension
18:17:38 <Deewiant> Or repeat the extension that many times
18:17:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I'd love there to be a foo -1.x under that naming system
18:17:49 <ais523> actually, any excuse for an antitarbomb would be great
18:18:00 <ais523> I mean, an antiantitarbomb-tarbomb
18:18:08 <ais523> as in, one that untars in ..
18:18:18 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc tar restricts that?
18:18:19 <ais523> I bet the tar standard doesn't support that, but I so hope it des
18:18:20 <fizzie> They should get the holography-based discs to the market (infallopedia says they have 250GB discs now with a 3.9TB maximum); simply because, you know... holographic discs! It's *so* the future. I'm sure they've used some sort of holocubes in at least one scifi series.
18:18:23 <ehird> Deewiant: How do you want the patch?
18:18:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember some security report about that.
18:19:09 <ais523> fizzie: in "3001" by Arthur C. Clarke, standard removable data storage that people carried around was in the petabyte to exabyte rate
18:19:10 <ehird> Deewiant: What I'm trying to say is I forgot how to get a mail friendly version of a commit.
18:19:25 <ais523> which strikes me as surprisingly low given Moore's Law
18:19:26 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't know, I develop alone.
18:19:47 <ais523> I know, I was being facetious
18:20:07 <ais523> I'm mostly at peace on the whole emacs/vi thing, can you give me at least one holy war to fight?
18:20:12 <Deewiant> ehird: git show --pretty=email
18:20:13 <fizzie> Well, Moore's law is more like a guideline here... but still, it does sound pretty small for 3001.
18:20:22 <ehird> Deewiant: Does git have a command to apply that?
18:20:38 <Deewiant> ehird: It has git am, but of course that doesn't work with Thunderbird.
18:21:16 <ehird> Deewiant: "git show" on the rename shows a diff for every single fucking line in ccbi
18:21:19 <Deewiant> Which is why I might just grab the diff-part and apply it under my name. :-P
18:21:33 <ehird> Deewiant: How about I just give you instructions?
18:21:54 <Deewiant> Tell you what, I'll do it myself
18:22:00 <ehird> Deewiant: mkdir ccbi; "ls|sed 's/ccbi.rf//;s/ccbi$//'|xargs echo", git mv THOSE ccbi
18:22:29 <Deewiant> But I'll just move obj to toplevel
18:22:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Don't move ccbi.rf
18:22:42 <ehird> Keep it in the root
18:22:47 <ehird> It's not part of the ccbi. hierarchy
18:23:08 <ehird> It already is, I think, but kay
18:23:29 <Deewiant> Well, I didn't follow your instructions
18:23:37 <Deewiant> I just did mv * and then moved back the rest
18:23:50 <ehird> Deewiant: git mv != mv
18:24:14 <ehird> But in the commit it shows "renamed ff -> gg"
18:24:34 <ehird> It's a testament to how good they are that I didn't notic
18:24:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I kind of prefer that it tracks moves, since I often move and rewrite large parts of the file in the same commit.
18:24:59 <Deewiant> Now should I call the binary ccbi2 or the directory src/ccbi
18:25:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Then it's not much of a rename
18:25:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Directory: src/ccbi
18:25:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why can't you just call it src
18:25:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Module naming.
18:25:36 <AnMaster> src/*.d src/fingerprints/{rcs,catseye,...}/*.d
18:25:49 <ehird> Like Java, Python, ...
18:27:57 <Deewiant> Well, that's that, now AnMaster doesn't have to hate me for that any more.
18:28:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Put the uri up plz
18:28:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I just need to git pull I assume?
18:29:39 <ehird> Deewiant: rebuild -rfccbi.rf -L-lncurses
18:30:09 <ehird> Remember to link with an ncurses library.
18:30:09 <ehird> Assuming 32-bit chtype...
18:30:11 <ehird> Remember to link with an ncurses library.
18:30:13 <ehird> Assuming 32-bit chtype...
18:30:15 <ehird> Remember to link with an ncurses library.
18:30:17 <ehird> Assuming 32-bit chtype...
18:30:21 <ehird> Thank you, CCBI. I got it the first time.
18:30:27 <ehird> zsh: bus error bin/ccbi --help
18:30:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Blame the DMD frontend, not me.
18:30:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Er, so what'mI meant to do
18:30:47 <ais523> Deewiant: I got CCBI running under gdc but not dmd, IIRC
18:30:49 <Deewiant> Or actually, blame rebuild, I guess.
18:30:56 <ehird> ais523: this is ccbi2
18:30:59 <ehird> you're meant to use LDC
18:31:04 <ehird> which uses the dmd frontend, but LLVM as a backend
18:31:06 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you tell apt-get or aptitude to *reinstall* a package
18:31:09 <Deewiant> ais523: It can't have worked well with GDC, some things would have segfaulted it.
18:31:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Uninstall and reinstall.
18:31:16 <AnMaster> ais523, somehow some of it's files are not there.
18:31:16 <ehird> Deewiant: So, why does --help segfault?
18:31:24 <AnMaster> ehird, won't that delete the config files for it.
18:31:26 <Deewiant> ehird: Beats me, can you backtrace?
18:31:30 <ehird> Only purging does that.
18:31:36 <Deewiant> ehird: Pass -gc to rebuild if you can't
18:31:46 <Deewiant> And -full to make sure it actually builds
18:31:58 <ais523> AnMaster: apt-get install --reinstall
18:32:07 <ehird> ais523: not intentionally!
18:32:11 <ehird> it's not lying if you didn't know
18:32:13 <AnMaster> ais523, none in aptitude though
18:32:19 <ais523> well, I didn't know either, I was reading the man page
18:32:24 <ais523> and I don't use aptitude
18:33:24 <fizzie> There *is* a "reinstall" command in aptitude.
18:34:00 <fizzie> Just "aptitude reinstall package"; I'm not sure where it is in the text-ui.
18:34:03 <AnMaster> anyway it didn't add the missing file back. So how do I list the package to make sure I didn't imagine it being there in the first place.
18:34:14 <fizzie> "L": Request that a package be reinstalled.
18:34:19 <fizzie> Okay, you can use uppercase-L in the UI.
18:34:40 <fizzie> And you can use "dpkg-query -L package" to list the files contained in one.
18:35:09 <AnMaster> ok.... for some reason reinstalling lighttpd didn't add back the missing /etc/init.d/lighttpd
18:35:50 <ehird> OMG, Multi-Threading is
18:35:50 <ehird> Easier Than Networking
18:35:53 <ehird> β Title of Intel paper
18:35:56 <ehird> http://software.intel.com/file/14723
18:36:17 * ais523 isn't sure offhand which of multithreading and networking inherently feels harder
18:36:42 <AnMaster> the file doesn't exist though. And reinstalling it doesn't add it back.
18:36:52 <AnMaster> what does one do on debian in that case.
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18:37:19 <ehird> "ccbi" prints the same as "ccbi --help", right?
18:37:23 <ehird> Because just ccbi works.
18:37:24 <fizzie> Well, you can "aptitude purge lighttpd" followed by a separate "aptitude install lighttpd", to make sure it is as if you were installing lighttpd for the first time; that will remove the related config files too, though.
18:37:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Does this make any fucking sense to you?
18:37:39 <ehird> #0 0x0006febe in _d_invariant (o=0x1300000) at /Users/ehird/d/ldc/runtime/internal/invariant.d:16
18:37:39 <ehird> #1 0x0003a9c4 in _D5tango2io6stream6Format20__T12FormatOutputTaZ12FormatOutput8formatlnMFAaYC5tango2io6stream6Format20__T12FormatOutputTaZ12FormatOutput ()
18:37:42 <ehird> It's the stream formatting that's broken
18:37:46 <ehird> Why would it only break with a command line argument
18:37:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't want it to remove them. Just add the missing init.d script!
18:38:09 <Deewiant> Well, something else could easily break it
18:38:30 <Deewiant> ehird: What if you pass any other argument
18:38:52 <fizzie> I really think reinstall should add missing non-configurationary files. But if you don't mind, you can always just unpack the deb and put it there manually. Incidentally, do you happen to have the links to the initscript still?
18:39:00 <ehird> zsh: bus error bin/ccbi fuck
18:39:25 <ehird> Deewiant: #1 0x0003a9c4 in _D5tango2io6stream6Format20__T12FormatOutputTaZ12FormatOutput8formatlnMFAaYC5tango2io6stream6Format20__T12FormatOutputTaZ12FormatOutput ()
18:39:27 <Deewiant> Go to line 350 in ccbi.d, turn the test to true ||
18:39:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, something complaining about those broken symlinks was how I noticed it.
18:39:29 <ehird> That's not to do with regex?
18:39:29 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:39:49 <Deewiant> ehird: Doesn't mean that regex can't break something that causes everything else to break
18:40:02 <ehird> Where is this test, o mighty one?
18:40:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, any command to make it check integrity of all installed files.
18:40:51 <AnMaster> To make sure no other ones are missing.
18:41:28 <ehird> Deewiant: regex thing changes nothing
18:41:44 <fizzie> Reinstall indeed doesn't seem to add init.d files back. I guess it really considers that a config file, then, or something. Can't really say I've ran across a related problem before.
18:42:28 <Deewiant> ehird: Reduce it to a single small file, if you can
18:43:02 <Deewiant> ehird: Remove from line 359 to the last }
18:43:30 <Deewiant> Try that, in the meanwhile I'll make you something to test
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18:48:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I wonder what response I would have got from you if I had asked that for cfunge (I'm pretty sure you know C)
18:49:43 <AnMaster> ehird, by the way, what large esolang related projects have you done recently?
18:50:32 <ehird> I don't go for the large esolangs, so umm
18:50:46 <AnMaster> ah. What about your last small esolang interpreter/compiler.
18:50:51 <Sgeo> Hey, I'm actually doing some homework!
18:51:08 <Sgeo> AnMaster, it's a rarity
18:51:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh, I foundeded it: dpkg -i --force-confmiss /var/cache/apt/archives/lighttpd<correct version here>.deb
18:51:45 <ehird> AnMaster: My unlambda in haskell?
18:51:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: That will add missing configuration files, but should not touch existing ones.
18:52:02 <Sgeo> I don't get it
18:52:42 <ehird> http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/4/22/78 LOL WAT
18:53:28 <fizzie> It should say something like "Configuration file `/etc/init.d/mt-daapd', does not exist on system. Installing new config file as you request."
18:54:40 <AnMaster> interestingly enough sparse fails to parse some cfunge files. It handles C99 pretty well. But not the foo(double bar[restrict 16]) syntax.
18:59:24 <ehird> AnMaster: http://ivoras.sharanet.org/freebsd/freebsd8.html freebsd replacing gcc w/ clang
19:00:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes sure. Only reason I consider the first link insane is that using clang or something else would be a way smarter move.
19:00:09 <pikhq> My Internet connection hates me. Be back in a bit.
19:00:15 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
19:00:40 <AnMaster> Prediction YACC won't mean Yet Another Compiler Compiler. Instead it will mean: Yet Another C Compiler (oh no!)
19:01:19 <ehird> I wish it'd die again.
19:01:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it is like trolls in nethack I'm afraid.
19:01:50 <AnMaster> ehird, plus, what language would you suggest, other than C, for the linux kernel.
19:01:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:02:11 <ehird> Lisp. Although that would not lend itself to implementing a Unix. That's a feature.
19:03:58 <AnMaster> ehird, Yes. But do you think that will actually happen. Or are you just wishing.
19:04:34 <ehird> Probably. Maybe. One day. If we get intelligence-enhancing brain transplants my preferred UI would be Lisp.
19:04:42 <ehird> That's far off of course. Hopefully lisp machines will happen again sooner.
19:04:54 <ehird> There are many things less likely.
19:04:57 <lament> my preferred ui would be tits
19:05:04 <lament> how about a tits-based programming language.
19:05:12 <lament> nested tits? hell yeah.
19:06:18 <ehird> (.)list 1 2 (.)+ 2 2(.)(.)
19:07:51 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:09:06 <ehird> Nested tits programming language, pioneered by lament.
19:14:47 <Deewiant> ehird: So if you wanna pull I removed usage of regex
19:15:43 <ehird> Yay it is the work ing
19:16:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Is optimization enabled by default?
19:16:15 <Deewiant> Coincidentally, removing that module decreased the size of the binary by 140K (the optimized, not stripped and compressed version)
19:16:50 <Deewiant> (86K for the stripped one and 26K for the UPX'd one)
19:17:33 <Deewiant> But I don't think the last two are implemented
19:17:39 <Deewiant> They're link-time optimization
19:17:48 <ehird> ldc: Unknown command line argument '-O7'. Try: '/Users/ehird/d/ldc/bin/ldc --help'
19:17:48 <ehird> ldc: Unknown command line argument '-O7'. Try: '/Users/ehird/d/ldc/bin/ldc --help'
19:17:49 <ehird> ldc: Unknown command line argument '-O7'. Try: '/Users/ehird/d/ldc/bin/ldc --help'
19:17:51 <Deewiant> And I don't think anything LLVM does it.
19:17:51 <ehird> ldc: Unknown command line argument '-O7'. Try: '/Users/ehird/d/ldc/bin/ldc --help'
19:18:21 <Deewiant> Whether something upstream would accept it and do something with it, I don't know.
19:19:01 <ehird> Deewiant: -O5 gives me an llvm assertion error
19:19:06 <ehird> Assertion failed: (Op.isUse() && (Op.isKill() || getFPReg(Op) == FirstFPRegOp || MI->killsRegister(Op.getReg())) && "Ret only defs operands, and values aren't live beyond it"), function handleSpecialFP, file X86FloatingPoint.cpp, line 1072.
19:19:07 <ehird> 0 ldc 0x00ae5a02 llvm::sys::RemoveFileOnSignal(llvm::sys::Path const&, std::string*) + 866
19:19:13 <ehird> It still runs though
19:19:18 <Deewiant> It could be an LLVM bug or an LDC bug
19:19:31 <ehird> Say, does ccbi work with 64 bit ints
19:19:44 <Deewiant> It doesn't use them for the funge-space cells, no.
19:19:55 <Deewiant> ehird: The reason it still runs is that it didn't link it again. :-P
19:19:57 <ehird> Right, so compiling 64bitly is wasteful
19:19:59 <Deewiant> You're running the old binary.
19:20:01 <ehird> Deewiant: I rm -rf'd bin so let's try again
19:20:04 <ehird> it gave output after that
19:20:15 <Deewiant> ehird: That's because rebuild continues.
19:20:36 <Deewiant> 64-bit isn't wasteful: there are some longs/ulongs in there (64-bit ints)
19:20:47 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:20:48 <ehird> Same error woo hoo
19:20:49 <Deewiant> Well, it may still be wasteful in the end
19:21:01 <Deewiant> But it's not completely useless.
19:21:45 <ehird> -m64 -march=x86-64
19:21:51 <ehird> rebuild -rfccbi.rf -full -L-lncurses -O3 -m64 -march=x86-64 -release
19:21:56 <ehird> ^CError: -m32 and -m64 switches cannot be used together with -march and -mtriple switches
19:23:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Trying -O2
19:23:18 <Deewiant> ehird: It's not so slow that you /have/ to optimize it >_<
19:23:37 <ehird> -funroll-unsafe-mathematical-integral-loops-pentium-4-only
19:23:53 <ehird> It gives a linker error.
19:24:03 <ehird> A FUCKING HUGE linker error
19:24:47 <ais523> ehird: -march=x86-64 implies -m64
19:24:53 <ehird> Deewiant: 1966 or so lines of integer errors:
19:24:54 <ehird> Your paste cannot be larger than 100 kb. Sorry.
19:26:23 <ehird> http://pastebin.com/f73d5f685
19:26:37 <Deewiant> I meant, is that the flag causing the problems.
19:27:29 <Deewiant> ehird: ld warning: in /Users/ehird/d/ldc/lib/libtango-base-ldc.a, file is not of required architecture
19:27:38 <Deewiant> So no shit it can't find the symbols
19:28:13 <ehird> % rebuild -rfccbi.rf -full -L-lncurses -O1 -release
19:28:26 <ehird> Now, where's dat mycogy
19:39:45 <ehird> Deewiant: Is sanity.bf meant to just sit there?
19:41:30 <ehird> I'm saying that ccbi2 does that.
19:41:38 <ehird> So does mycology.b98.
19:41:40 <AnMaster> $ build/cfunge mycology/sanity.bf
19:41:47 <AnMaster> well it doesn't print a newline at the end
19:41:53 <ehird> Hey Deewiant, also,
19:41:54 <ehird> Copyright (c) 2006-2009 Matti Niemenmaa, http://www.iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/
19:41:55 <ehird> See the file license.txt for copyright details.
19:41:57 <ehird> Usage: --help ARGS SOURCE_FILE [BEFUNGE_ARGS...]
19:43:23 <ehird> So, I've gone batshit insane and am going to be the implementing of the befungey.
19:43:43 <ehird> ais523: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:43:50 <ais523> in fact, you could have both ITRALCEN and Bfngue
19:43:54 <AnMaster> ehird, how does ITRALCEN differ from INTERCAL
19:44:03 <ais523> AnMaster: ITRALCEN's a vaporware INTERCAL interp
19:44:07 <ehird> AnMaster: It's more reflective, and orthogonal, and it has a weird compiler system like CLC.
19:44:12 <AnMaster> ais523, but what makes it special.
19:44:16 <ais523> or knowing INTERCAL, a bit of both
19:44:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Simultaneous operand overloading, fwiw.
19:44:22 <ais523> AnMaster: all INTERCAL implementations are special
19:44:27 <ehird> If you operand overload one thing to two things,
19:44:33 <ehird> whenever you use the overloaded, the program threads
19:44:35 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. But in what way is this one special.
19:44:42 <ehird> this is used to implement COME FROM, with β½ vars
19:44:45 <ehird> β½N is the line N
19:44:49 <ehird> it contains an ITRALCEN-string
19:44:52 <ehird> but you can operand overload it, too
19:45:01 <ehird> this, of course, is hell for performance or any sane sort of compiling
19:45:06 <ehird> but ITRALCEN compiles ITRALCEN to ITRALCEN
19:45:14 <ehird> specifically, it compiles the intercal code to the itralcen primitives
19:45:21 <ehird> which are designed just for intercal
19:45:33 <ehird> an ITRALCEN befunge implementation would compile befunge to ITRALCEN on the fly
19:45:46 <AnMaster> ehird, "compile on the fly" == JIT
19:46:14 <ehird> more like self-rewriting source code that's continually hammered into a set of primitives by the ITRALCEN compiler
19:47:15 <ehird> it's quite similar to CLC, but a bit more brain damaged due to the β½ variables and the really odd set of primitives
19:47:28 <ehird> I mean, operand overloading used for branching? Operand overloading more than once for threading?
19:48:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I still don't see how "on the fly" differs from "just in time"
19:49:12 <AnMaster> and, how do you use operator overloading for threading
19:49:37 <AnMaster> you told me about threading already
19:50:24 <ehird> AnMaster: β½N is line number N; the contents is its source code, and if you operand overload it, it switches that line for another one (obviously)
19:50:41 <ehird> if you do it twice, then as the interpreter dereferences it to jump, the multi-operand-overloading code kicks in, and threads it
19:56:20 <ehird> Is the name mycelium taken by any funge thing, Deewiant? AnMaster?
19:56:55 <ais523> it's quite close to mycology, but not quite close enough to be confusing
19:57:16 <ehird> AnMaster: No, if I have something that can execute a good portion of funge I'd say it's takn
19:57:19 <ehird> ais523: That is true.
19:57:26 <ehird> I thought it might be the name of a mycology file
19:58:20 <ais523> what licence is mycology?
19:59:15 <fizzie> I had plans to use the name "mycena" (which is a genus of mushrooms, many of the glow-in-the-dark bioluminescent variety) for some project or other, but I don't think it ever happened.
19:59:49 <ehird> Deewiant: (# !Int, !Int #)
20:00:34 <ais523> is that an unboxed pair of unboxed ints?
20:00:50 <ais523> = a 128-bit integer, effectively
20:01:43 <ehird> #haskell says to use data IntPair = IntPair {-# UNPACK #-} !Int {-# UNPACK #-} !Iint
20:01:46 <ehird> To avoid me going insane
20:02:05 <Deewiant> I thought you wanted to use +# everywhere :-P
20:02:23 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, yeah, exactly, I don't want to :P
20:02:38 <AnMaster> <ais523> is that an unboxed pair of unboxed ints?
20:03:01 <ais523> to be precise, Haskell with GHC extensions
20:03:02 <ehird> data Point = Point { x :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int
20:03:02 <ehird> , y :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int }
20:03:30 <ehird> Deewiant: Not for now.
20:06:00 <ehird> *Main> point (2,3)
20:06:26 <ehird> point !(!x,!y) = Point { x = x, y = y }
20:06:57 <ehird> But it feels right.
20:07:08 <ehird> Do I even need any bang patterns? The fields are strict.
20:07:23 <Deewiant> The outer you wouldn't need in any case.
20:07:38 <Deewiant> Since (x,y) is a pattern that has to be matched against.
20:07:44 <ehird> I wish I could read ghc asm
20:08:05 <ehird> I wanna see what my point compiled to
20:08:15 <oklofok> i can read it with my eyes closed
20:08:20 <Deewiant> It compiled to a _closure and _somethingelse
20:08:32 <Deewiant> And I can never find the actuaal code
20:09:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Actually, maybe having point is bad
20:09:07 <ehird> Since it might result in a call
20:09:13 <ehird> As opposed to just exposing Point
20:09:49 <ais523> [20:09] <ehird> Deewiant: Actually, maybe having point is bad
20:09:51 <ais523> [20:09] <ehird> Since it might result in a call
20:09:52 <ais523> [20:09] <ehird> As opposed to just exposing Point
20:09:54 <ais523> ^ I misinterpreted that as being about sport
20:09:58 <ais523> due to not looking at the context
20:10:06 <Deewiant> ehird: GHC isn't that crap at inlining
20:10:23 <ehird> Deewiant: I can't read its output, therefore it scares me.
20:10:41 <Sgeo> "In January our profits went up or down, depending on which chart is right, we're not sure. Now February was a very different month, because as you recall we took it off"
20:11:25 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
20:12:32 <oklofok> in soviet russia, the area jans you
20:12:54 <ehird> 20:12 ehird: Possibly the most bloated, extensible (it has modules...) esoteric language on the planet
20:12:54 <ehird> 20:12 Berengal: ehird: There's Java...
20:13:39 <ais523> it suffers from excessive trying to be sane in some areas, though, like interfaces, exceptions, and function pointers
20:13:41 <ehird> Maybe I'll call my funge RicerFunge.
20:13:47 <ais523> not to mention templates, but they almost fixed that
20:13:56 <oklofok> stop mocking java, i need to read about it all night.
20:14:04 -!- tombom has joined.
20:14:34 <ehird> 20:14 wli: Am I the only one who finds th "esoteric languages" unworthy of any attention/notice/etc. whatsoever?
20:15:06 <AnMaster> <ais523> ^ I misinterpreted that as being about sport <-- which sport...
20:15:06 <oklofok> ehird: i somewhat doubt that :D
20:15:14 <ehird> 20:14 ehird: wli: PROGRAMMING IS SERIOUS BUSINESS
20:15:14 <ehird> 20:14 ehird: Fun is strictly forbidden, lest we write unmaintainable code!
20:15:15 <ehird> 20:15 ehird: Most of all, theoretical models are NEVER helpful to discover new concepts.
20:15:16 <ais523> AnMaster: it doesn't really matter, it could have been anything
20:15:29 <fizzie> I misinterpreted the first line of ais523's misinterpreted block of text in the sense "maybe having a point is bad"; i.e. pointlessness being a good thing.
20:15:35 <lament> ehird: why are you quoting yourself?
20:15:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not much into this "sport" thing.
20:15:54 <ehird> lament: Because it's a reply to a thing I previously quoted, #esoteric-related, that's not happening in #esoteric.
20:16:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so how far in mycology did it get.
20:16:15 <lament> isn't everyone here in #haskell anyway?
20:16:16 <oklofok> lament: you should probably ban him, that's against the rules
20:16:21 <ais523> ehird: but nobody but me's in #esoteric-related
20:16:27 <fizzie> I'm not ever on #haskell.
20:16:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Why wasn't I a dick to you when you tried efunge?
20:16:37 <ehird> HEY YOU STARTED IT 5 MINUTES AGO WHY ISN'T IT DONE YET SLACKER
20:16:44 <ehird> IS IT 'CUZ YOU SUCK
20:16:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you were irritating me when I started on cfunge.
20:17:21 <ehird> Nnnnoooo I wasn't, the only thing I complained about was the name at first.
20:17:27 <ehird> 20:17 wli suggests that there are better languages for exercises in compiler/interpreter writing.
20:19:31 <oklofok> people who dislike things are idiots
20:19:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> @faq can haskell be an esolang?
20:19:40 <AnMaster> <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
20:20:33 <fizzie> fungot: @faq CAN BEFUNGE DO THAT?
20:20:34 <fungot> fizzie: " and when are we to do? and meanwhile, baron, what you think of him!"
20:20:52 <ais523> that's a better answer than lambdabot's
20:21:33 <ais523> ^def faq ul (Yes! Funge can do that.)S
20:21:41 <ais523> ^faq can Funge be an esolang?
20:21:41 <fungot> Yes! Funge can do that.
20:21:56 <AnMaster> ^faq can Funge solve the halting paradox.
20:21:57 <fungot> Yes! Funge can do that.
20:22:09 <ehird> AnMaster: halting problem
20:22:12 <ehird> ais523: yes, but, flow
20:22:18 <AnMaster> ^faq can Funge solve the halting problem?
20:22:18 <fungot> Yes! Funge can do that.
20:22:30 <ehird> 20:21 wli: monochrom: In non-esolang-related affairs, slapping a higher-order module system atop basic FP lang constructs is proving difficult for me. β that's not esotericβ½
20:22:38 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it shouldn't. Since that would be a paradox. Thus it needs to solve the paradox.
20:23:16 <ehird> Hey, someone come up with a good binary coordinate operator.
20:23:43 <ehird> AnMaster: a symbol going between x and y to construct a point
20:23:50 <ehird> AnMaster: that's composition
20:23:55 <ais523> True or false: If this statement is true, I can win #esoteric by announcement.
20:23:58 <AnMaster> ehird, (x . y) looks lispy though
20:24:07 <oklofok> i thought it was endswith:
20:24:07 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not breaking Haskell.
20:24:18 <ehird> oklofok: a string of symbols
20:24:27 <ais523> AnMaster: it can't be, logically
20:24:27 <ehird> ais523: Ah, AnMaster still denies Curry's paradox.
20:24:30 <oklofok> ehird: oh i thought you wanted a constructor
20:24:35 <ehird> I argued with him about this before
20:24:42 <ehird> he thought the (this=>foo) was an axiom he had to accept
20:24:45 <ais523> AnMaster: because if it's false, that implies that it's true /and/ I can't win #esoteric by announcement
20:25:39 <AnMaster> ais523, Um. I don't see anything implying it must be true if it is false in it.
20:25:48 <ehird> ais523: please, I'm trying to help you here
20:25:57 <ehird> he doesn't understand logic, I tried to explain curry's paradox for _hours_
20:26:18 <ehird> no, it was at least 30 minutes
20:26:26 <ais523> AnMaster: "If A then B" means "A is false or B is true", in logic
20:26:32 <ehird> I know because I started looking for the nearest window to jump out of
20:26:41 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but your overstatement is equal to my understatement.
20:26:45 <ais523> so it's negation, "not (If A then B)", means "A is true and B is false"
20:27:11 <ais523> ehird: see, that was easy
20:27:15 <AnMaster> ais523, seems like a flaw somewhere.
20:27:19 <ehird> ais523: ... or was it.
20:27:24 <oklofok> what i'm not getting about it is why i'm not able to tell you what the reason for the paradox is.
20:28:49 <oklofok> err, well, it's an infinite proposition, nothing says those need to have a definite value, therefore that doesn't need to be true or false.
20:28:50 <AnMaster> ais523, to me it sounds more like a natural language problem than a logical one. And I suspect that the whole premise (sp?) for that logical connection is inconsistent with reality.
20:29:03 <oklofok> AnMaster: i explained it, read.
20:29:08 <ehird> This is exactly the bullshit he spinned last time. oh well.
20:29:59 <AnMaster> oklofok, hm... Are you agreeing with me or not.
20:30:16 <ais523> AnMaster: it's similar to the Epinimedes paradox, "This sentence is false"
20:30:38 <ehird> AnMaster: curry's paradox is logically true in naive logics (those which allow self-reference)
20:30:43 <ehird> it's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing
20:30:55 <ehird> in practice, this means you use a non-naive logic.
20:30:59 <ais523> the paradox works in the logic too, following naive logic rules
20:31:13 <ais523> translating maths into English is always a little hairy, though
20:31:20 <ais523> it ends up meaning the same thing, but being a lot more ambiguous
20:31:25 <ais523> so it feels like there's wiggle room
20:31:30 <ais523> when in the original maths, there isn't
20:31:41 <AnMaster> ais523, but "If the moon exists, it is made of cheese" isn't a paradox. It is just a flawed "casual connection". To me this "paradox" seems more like such a flawed connection, than a paradox.
20:31:42 <ais523> kerlo: could you translate the paradox into Lojban easily, I wonder?
20:31:52 <ehird> AnMaster: not the same thing
20:31:52 <ais523> AnMaster: well, that's just a false statement
20:31:56 <ais523> not a causal thing at all
20:32:07 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. Didn't find the right English word.
20:32:09 <ais523> compare "if the moon exists, it is made of cheese" to "if the moon existed, it would be made of cheese
20:32:23 <ais523> first is indicative, therefore the logical if-then; second is subjunctive
20:32:32 <ais523> and therefore a causal if-then
20:32:45 <ais523> it's a weird feature of English, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lojban had two different words for taht
20:32:46 <AnMaster> ais523, those seems to boil down to the same to me. Except the latter says it doesn't currently but would happen if it did.
20:32:52 <AnMaster> same thing from two different viewpoints
20:32:59 <ais523> AnMaster: the first is comparing two unconnected statements
20:33:02 <ehird> AnMaster: logically, you're utterly and completely wrong.
20:33:16 <ais523> for instance, "If AnMaster is American, then the Empire State Building is made of lemonade" is true
20:33:24 <ais523> two separate statements combined by if-then, logically
20:33:35 <ais523> "If AnMaster were American, then the Empire State Building would be made of lemonade" is false
20:33:35 <ehird> ais523: you mean it isn't?
20:33:42 <ais523> because there's no logical connection between the two parts of that
20:33:54 <ais523> and the use of the subjunctive implies a causal if
20:34:03 <ais523> noncausal if doesn't come up much apart from in contracts, tbh
20:34:08 <ais523> which is probably why you aren't used to it
20:34:12 <AnMaster> ais523, one issue here is that natural languages confuse the issue.
20:34:45 <AnMaster> it does make a lot more sense as a possible paradox when written in logic.
20:34:48 <ais523> logically, the statement is ((!(this statement)) || (ais523 can win #esoteric by announcement))
20:34:53 <ais523> that's C notation, but you know what I mean
20:35:00 <AnMaster> ais523, but it doesn't make any sense as a paradox at all when written in English!
20:35:10 <ehird> english has no built in logic
20:35:16 <ehird> just a mapping of terms to logic terms
20:35:21 <ehird> therefore, that's a silly argument
20:35:21 <ais523> well, it relies on uncommonly used bits of English which are similar to commonly used bits of English
20:35:29 <ais523> and therefore is likely to be extremely confusing to someone who isn't a native speaker
20:35:30 <ehird> english is just a transport method
20:35:55 <AnMaster> why couldn't ehird just have explained what ais523 just said last time...
20:35:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I tried to!
20:36:06 <AnMaster> ehird, not the "<ais523> and therefore is likely to be extremely confusing to someone who isn't a native speaker" bit
20:36:12 <ehird> it's not easy to explain a language to someone who isn't a native speaker
20:36:19 <oklofok> err, i don't think ais523 was talking about the paradox
20:36:28 <ehird> but, in "X is X implies Y", X is true.
20:36:35 <ehird> therefore, Y is true.
20:36:37 <oklofok> i thought you were talking about the two if-then's.
20:36:40 <ehird> it's logically true
20:36:44 <ais523> ehird: it is, however, easy to explain to a non-native speaker that something is particularly hard to explain to a non-native speaker
20:36:47 <ehird> so that's why you use a non-naive logic
20:36:52 <ehird> which disallows self-reference
20:37:02 <oklofok> ais523: anyway swedish has the exact same two if's.
20:37:10 <AnMaster> ais523, in English I still don't see the paradox. In C I see it. Same for (err what is the word...) predicate logic?
20:37:45 <AnMaster> right. predikatlogik in Swedish.
20:38:11 <ehird> ais523: can you explain to him that english is not a separate logic system
20:38:14 <ehird> just a transport method for thoughts?
20:38:17 <AnMaster> oklofok, which ones are you thinking about
20:38:21 <ehird> he seems to think that english somehow has its own system of logic
20:38:25 <ais523> ehird: but don't thoughts have logics of their own/
20:38:43 <ais523> there are tribes of people who are culturally incapable of counting
20:38:43 <ehird> stating something in english does not change its truth valu
20:38:46 <ehird> that's just ridiculous
20:38:58 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't that an urban myth?
20:39:00 <ehird> ais523: .β.β.mipmip.β.β.
20:39:09 <ais523> AnMaster: well, Wikipedia confirms it
20:39:15 <ehird> ais523: but does netcraft?
20:39:17 <ais523> for Wikipedia values of confirm
20:39:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I should have known you'd pick up that reference
20:39:34 <oklofok> AnMaster: conditional versus the normal verb case, you'd do that the exact same way in swedish
20:39:54 <ehird> AnMaster: not particularly
20:40:05 <ehird> maybe I'll name my funge Cunninghamellacae
20:40:15 <ehird> It has a certain ring to it.
20:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, of course I can pick up almost any reference from that source. There are just some out of print stuff I'm missing.
20:40:30 <ehird> Actually, I'll call it Hypha. Or Dimorphic.
20:40:34 <ehird> Those are nice names.
20:40:36 <oklofok> AnMaster: if i had used swedish in years, i'd demonstrate, but enough people here know it that i'm not going to try :P
20:41:03 <AnMaster> oklofok, I still don't know what you are talking about...
20:42:43 <oklofok> well i'm not sure i have any idea about anything, but afaiu'd ais523 said you might not understand the paradox because you should it was a causal relation, even though swedish uses that exact same sentence structure for a logical implication, and has a separate causal relation
20:43:59 <oklofok> ais523: lojban doesn't have "paradox", which i find paradoxical
20:44:18 <oklofok> Redirected from "paradoxical"
20:44:18 <oklofok> Did you mean: paradox, paradoxical
20:44:34 <oklofok> oh paradox was suggested there too, then slightly less fnny
20:45:04 <oklofok> but i love how when searching for a word in answers, it often redirects, and asks me if i wanted to search for what i was searching for
20:46:14 <oklofok> AnMaster: basically i search for paradoxical, it redirects to paradox and asks if i maybe wanted paradoxical
20:46:37 <oklofok> and i'm like "wow how did you guess!"
20:46:49 <AnMaster> oklofok, where was that search
20:47:11 <oklofok> i use it to check all english words.
20:47:22 <ais523> [20:47] <ais523> lingbot: en fi "If this statement is true, ais523 can win #esoteric by announcement"?
20:47:23 <ais523> [20:47] <lingbot> ais523: "Jos tΓ€mΓ€ vΓ€ite on totta, ais523 voittaa # esoteerinen jota ilmoitus" (en to fi, translate.google.com)
20:47:24 <ehird> AnMaster: answers.com aggregates dictionaries, thesauruses and wikipedia
20:47:27 <ehird> AnMaster: which is convenient
20:47:38 * ais523 has no good if paradoxes survive Google translate
20:47:49 <ais523> now, that's quite a typo
20:47:52 <ehird> ais523: where's lingbot?
20:47:53 <oklofok> ais523: if this statement is true, ais523 wins # esoteric which notification
20:48:11 <AnMaster> ais523, in what channel is longbot
20:49:25 <AnMaster> ais523, do you need to share a channel with it or something
20:49:49 <oklofok> 22:49β¦ oklofok: lingbot: fi en "Jos tΓ€mΓ€ vΓ€ite on totta, ais523 voittaa # esoteerinen jota ilmoitus"?
20:49:49 <oklofok> 22:49β¦ lingbot: oklofok: "If this claim is true, ais523 win # rarefied by the return" (fi to en, translate.google.com)
20:50:20 -!- ais523 has set topic: This is #rarefied | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:50:28 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't responding to me!
20:50:35 <ais523> AnMaster: are you putting in the quotes and the question mark?
20:50:54 <ais523> it's quite strict on syntax, it seems
20:50:57 <ais523> AnMaster: with a colon?
20:51:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I copy pasted your line
20:51:15 <AnMaster> and changed to sv, tried with fi too
20:51:27 <oklofok> pikhq: why would you want a job?
20:51:33 <ais523> [20:51] <ais523> lingbot: en sv "If this statement is true, ais523 can win #esoteric by announcement"?
20:51:34 <ais523> [20:51] <lingbot> ais523: "Om detta Γ€r sant, ais523 kan vinna # esoteriska genom kungΓΆrelse" (en to sv, translate.google.com)
20:51:36 <ehird> (just jumpin' on bandwaggin)
20:52:08 <oklofok> i don't know the last word, but at least the rest seems
20:52:48 <pikhq> System administration.
20:53:07 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb5DjyoDObA
20:53:14 <AnMaster> ais523, that feels soooo out of date
20:53:15 <oklofok> oh. well that isn't that bad i guess, given you're internet people
20:53:38 <AnMaster> oklofok, announcement, But think "town cries" and you get the time setting right.
20:54:05 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
20:54:14 <ais523> [20:54] <ais523> lingbot: "Om detta Γ€r sant, ais523 kan vinna # esoteriska genom kungΓΆrelse"?
20:54:16 <ais523> [20:54] <lingbot> ais523: "If this is true, ais523 can win # esoteric by public notice" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
20:54:22 <ais523> it seems to roundtrip pretty well via sv
20:54:43 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but the Swedish one feels so off.
20:54:56 <ais523> it means the right thing, but is worded weirdly?
20:55:03 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I can't see any paradox in the Swedish one either.
20:55:19 <AnMaster> ais523, but yes as far as I can tell they mean the same.
20:57:05 <oklofok> ehird: shadow thing is awesome.
20:57:20 <ehird> checking for GNUreadline.framework... checking for readline... no
20:57:21 <ehird> checking for tputs in -lncurses... yes
20:57:22 <ehird> checking for readline in -lreadline... yes
20:57:23 <AnMaster> ais523, kungΓΆrelse might be closer to "proclamation" in style I think.
20:57:24 <ehird> checking for rl_readline_version... yes
20:57:26 <ehird> checking for rl_begin_undo_group... no
20:57:28 <ehird> configure: error: readline not found, so this package cannot be built
20:57:30 <ehird> See `config.log' for more details.
20:57:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> checking for irc channel to spam... yes
20:57:42 <oklofok> ehird: sounds like something i would make if i wasn't you know lazy.
20:57:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it just makes no senseeeeeeeeeee
20:57:51 <ais523> my favourite configure message ever was
20:58:03 <ais523> checking if build environment is sane... yes
20:58:12 <AnMaster> ehird, true, the error was badly named.
20:58:19 <ais523> that build environment was C-INTERCAL cross-compiling to a half-finished bugg gcc-bf
20:58:42 <ehird> checking if build environment is sane...
20:58:43 <ais523> ehird: I checked the source, all it's actually doing is checking that ls is indeed ls, rather than something entirely different
20:59:04 <ehird> (./configure continues)
20:59:09 <ais523> apparently there were weird bugs due to people aliasing ls before running configure
20:59:11 <AnMaster> ais523, does it even use ls elsewhere
20:59:19 <ais523> and probably, or maybe possibly
20:59:30 <ais523> I also particularly like the way ls is singled out for such treatment
20:59:36 <kerlo> ais523: a translation into Lojban of "if this statement is true, I can win #esoteric by announcement" would be uninteresting.
20:59:56 <ais523> kerlo: would it correctly get logical if rather than causal if?
21:00:17 <kerlo> ais523: I imagine Lojban has a material implication conjunction.
21:00:32 <oklofok> it has 4 different if-then's
21:00:34 <ais523> kerlo: but it's so rarely used you don't know what it is?
21:00:47 <oklofok> does kerlo actually study lojban?
21:01:06 <kerlo> I study Lojban very lightly.
21:01:21 <ehird> oklofok: as far as I can tell kerlo just sits around trying to be as cold and logical as possible while making idle remarks always about ai :)
21:01:23 <ais523> you chose your nick specifically to make sense in Lojban, though!
21:01:24 <kerlo> I don't even know any of the conjunctions for "or".
21:01:52 <oklofok> ehird: he's far too warm when it comes to calculus tho
21:01:59 <kerlo> If I remember correctly, the guy who invented Ithkuil and Ilaksh doesn't speak either.
21:02:13 <ehird> oklofok: is he like
21:02:18 <oklofok> ehird: i've heard he sometimes works with differentials.
21:03:18 <AnMaster> hm interesting.... I usually read English pretty fast, usually I read computer related stuff. However today I was reading about something biology related on wikipedia, and found that excessively hard to read. The Swedish page for that felt like a "simple Swedish" variant. (which iirc doesn't exist.)
21:03:47 <oklofok> kerlo: he doesn't, no one does afaik
21:04:57 <AnMaster> kerlo, what does your nick mean in Lojban
21:05:08 <ehird> my readline doesn't have rl_begin_undo_group
21:05:16 <ehird> AnMaster: ear? or dog
21:05:18 <ais523> you have a readline without undo?
21:05:23 <ehird> ais523: I suppose I do.
21:05:24 <ais523> what sort of editor is that?
21:05:30 <ehird> I have a macports one and the system one.
21:05:36 <ais523> you should use Emacs in readline mode, obviously
21:05:48 <ehird> | return rl_begin_undo_group ();
21:05:51 <ais523> (someone's bound to have implemented that by now, surely?)
21:05:56 <ehird> configure:3196: result: no
21:05:59 <ehird> http://www.nabble.com/Can't-cabal-install-readline-td20862558.html
21:06:15 <ehird> The above happens because GHC is using the OS X default installation
21:06:15 <ehird> of libreadline.a which is actually a link to libedit that doesn't
21:06:16 <ehird> implement the full readline API.
21:06:23 <ehird> but adding the /opt shit don't work :(
21:07:10 <AnMaster> a language you couldn't express anything false in would be interesting.
21:07:12 <ais523> kerlo: doesn't that make you simultaneously infinitely small and infinitely large?
21:07:18 <ais523> AnMaster: probably trivial
21:07:39 <ais523> as in, the language itself would only be able to express a small finite number of things
21:07:41 <oklofok> the empty langauge is like that
21:07:42 <ais523> and therefore would be a trivial language
21:08:01 <AnMaster> ais523, ah. What I meant was a more general usage language.
21:08:06 <oklofok> ais523: kerlo: doesn't that make you simultaneously infinitely small and infinitely large? <<< and no to this
21:08:20 <ais523> that doesn't let you express anything counter-government
21:08:22 <AnMaster> ais523, 1984 right, haven't read it.
21:08:33 <ais523> not quite the same as banning falsities, but should be close enough for practical use
21:08:52 <AnMaster> ais523, how was it supposed to work in the fiction.
21:09:11 <ais523> AnMaster: just there weren't concepts to express things like human rights, and free speech
21:09:45 <ais523> nor was there a sufficiently rich set of concepts to explain them
21:09:47 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't it be trivial to invent those though
21:09:57 <ehird> % INCLUDE_PATH=/opt/local/include C_INCLUDE_PATH=/opt/local/include LIBRARY_PATH=/opt/local/lib LD_LIBRARYPATH=/opt/local/lib cabal install readline --extra-include-dirs=/opt/local/include --extra-lib-dirs=/opt/local/lib
21:10:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you only need that because of OS X right
21:10:25 <ehird> I need it because I have readline installed in a non-standard place
21:10:33 <ehird> sorry you don't have an oppertunity to troll
21:10:33 <ais523> which is only because of OS X, right?
21:10:40 <ehird> I have done such things on linux too
21:10:51 <ais523> but only because I was doing something weird
21:10:53 <AnMaster> ehird, readline is usually in /usr/lib there though
21:11:09 <AnMaster> exception gobolinux noted and irrelevant
21:11:20 <ehird> it's so irrelevant that I used it.
21:11:32 <AnMaster> but it solves it in other ways iirc
21:12:38 <ehird> [ehird:/usr/local/lib/ghc-6.10.2] % ./ghc-asm
21:12:38 <ehird> zsh: ./ghc-asm: bad interpreter: /opt/local/bin/perl: no such file or directory
21:12:54 <ais523> where is your actual perl?
21:13:00 <ehird> /opt/perl/bin/perl
21:13:17 <ais523> also, there's a simple solution to such issues; just have only one directory on the entire computer which contains lots of symlinks to itself
21:13:22 <ais523> admittedly, it causes lots of other issues
21:13:33 <ais523> but it will solve those ones
21:13:44 <ais523> as a bonus, it makes implementing locate very easy
21:13:54 <AnMaster> ais523, symlinks to itself usually cause more problems than it solves indeed.
21:14:05 <ehird> What license ["GPL2","GPL3","LGPL2","LGPL3","BSD3","BSD4","PublicDomain","AllRightsReserved"] ["BSD3"]:
21:14:10 <ehird> Where's the BSD2/MIT :-(
21:14:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what is that prompt for
21:14:24 <ehird> AnMaster: mkcabal(1)
21:14:31 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you enter your own
21:14:41 <ehird> Under what category? [Codec,Control,Data,Database,Development,Distribution,Game,Graphics,Language,Math,Network,Sound,System,Testing,Text,Web,Other] [Codec]: Language
21:14:44 <ehird> arguably incorrect
21:14:48 <ehird> Is this your name? - "Author Name" [Y/n]:
21:14:50 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can enter your own then
21:14:55 <oklofok> ais523: i just wanted to ask you a really short question.
21:14:56 <ehird> but it won't copy the file for you
21:14:56 <ais523> I like the way Enigma does licences
21:15:08 <ais523> I gave an even shorter reply
21:15:12 <oklofok> and umm i meant the constant combinator
21:15:16 <AnMaster> ehird, still maybe report a bug
21:15:23 <ais523> oh, in that case, oklofok: second argument?
21:15:37 <ais523> actually, first argument?
21:15:41 <ais523> that's more useful than the second
21:16:09 <oklofok> ais523: first argument would be the directory
21:16:23 <ais523> applying combinators to filesystem
21:16:30 <ais523> sounds like the sort of thing an EsoOS would do
21:16:38 * ais523 wonders what an s-filesystem would be like
21:16:40 <oklofok> ais523: i'm not sure it makes that much sense, i just really wanted to ask a short question :P
21:16:43 <ais523> or even worse, a c-filesystem
21:17:03 <ais523> oklofok: it doesn't, but we're #esoteric; we should be able to /make/ it make sense
21:17:03 <oklofok> with c, backups sound easy
21:19:04 <oklofok> only three weeks of exams left, and i have time to code again \o/
21:23:02 <ais523> oklofok: translation of #esoteric to finnish and back to English, via Google
21:23:19 <oklofok> but "esoteerinen" means exactly the same as "esoteric"
21:29:08 -!- oklofok has changed nick to qop.
21:31:47 <qop> about making a set class... "the public interface we already know from elementary school" <<< currently they teach it at high school, in an advanced course
21:31:58 <qop> funny thing related to this
21:32:24 <qop> i asked a lecturer which course actually does real numbers rigorously in our uni
21:33:12 -!- ais523 has quit ("o").
21:33:25 <qop> (i had a slightly longer answer, but that's the gist of the funny)
21:34:34 <qop> of course, the focus is more on discrete math, but still, that's just incredibly wrong.
21:34:41 <qop> also bye ais.
21:35:45 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:37:21 <fizzie> Our "Mathematics 1" course pretty much started by a reasonably rigorous handling of real numbers; but that was the "L1" variant, for physics and maths students mostly; the computer science version ("C1") is rather more discrete-oriented.
21:37:30 <fizzie> And of course there's rigorous and then there's rigorous.
21:37:47 <qop> you started from the axioms?
21:38:05 <qop> or a construction
21:38:25 <fizzie> It was a rather constructivistic viewpoint, if I recall correctly.
21:38:45 <fizzie> It is all so vague; this was five-six years ago.
21:39:22 <qop> this older professor decided a few years ago to give the analysis 1 course (first course you take) that year, and started from reals, and a rigorous foundation of calculus
21:39:32 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:39:40 <qop> halfway through the course about 50% of students had dropped
21:40:03 <qop> and no one was going to pass it, he had to drop most content and just start over, basically
21:40:55 <qop> i actually have the lecture notes, unfortunately i'm not that good at studying if i don't get you know points and grades.
21:41:12 <fizzie> That sounds, content-wise, pretty much like it was done here; but of course the rigorousness level is hard to quantify.
21:41:48 <fizzie> Official list (in Finnish) of the contents for the half-a-year course are: "Luvut ja lukujonot. Vektorit ja analyyttinen geometria. Kompleksiluvut. Yhden ja usean muuttujan funktiot, kompleksifunktiot. JatkuvuuskΓ€sitteet ja jatkuvat funktiot. Reaali- ja kompleksifunktion derivaatta. Yhden muuttujan differentiaalilaskenta."
21:42:15 <qop> well, this dude is like 65 years old, when he was young high school actually taught stuff
21:43:15 <qop> well we did things in a different order
21:43:37 <fizzie> I hear the computer-science-maths do a different order, too.
21:43:44 <qop> but a solid foundation of calculus would take a big enough part of half a year to get on the list.
21:44:16 <fizzie> The official list for the C1 variant is: "Vektorialgebra ja matriisilaskenta. Lineaariset yhtΓ€lΓΆryhmΓ€t. Yhden reaalimuuttujan differentiaali- ja integraalilaskenta. Johdatus lukuteoriaan. Verkkoterion alkeet."
21:44:55 <qop> we have basic course in mathematics 1-3 and analysis 1-2, first set being for stupid people, analysis for smart people; then there's this separate analysis course for math students, and they wouldn't take me in
21:45:25 <qop> that's not rigorous either, but probably more so
21:45:40 <qop> verkkoterion? :D
21:46:02 <fizzie> Someone's been typoing, I guess.
21:46:12 <qop> well okay ais's idea->good was slightly worse
21:46:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Official list (in Finnish) of the contents for the half-a-year course are: "Luvut ja lukujonot. Vektorit ja analyyttinen geometria. Kompleksiluvut. Yhden ja usean muuttujan funktiot, kompleksifunktiot. JatkuvuuskΓ€sitteet ja jatkuvat funktiot. Reaali- ja kompleksifunktion derivaatta. Yhden muuttujan differentiaalilaskenta." <-- translate!
21:46:44 * AnMaster requires translations of everything Finnish said here.
21:47:04 <qop> google translate will probably get that right
21:47:36 <qop> just saying, it's a list of topics, so it's very computer translateable
21:48:00 <qop> i don't know much math terminology in english
21:48:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Uh... "Numbers and sequences. Vectors and analytic geometry. Complex numbers. Functions of single and multiple variables, complex functions. Continuity and continuous functions. Derivatives of real and complex functions. Differential equations of one variable." Or something like that, anyway.
21:48:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: Our L1 went on to construct real numbers as (infinite) sequences, I think; it's been a while, and it might differ a bit based on the lecturer.
21:49:30 <Deewiant> How else would you construct them? :-P
21:49:49 <qop> i have a hunch there are multiple ways.
21:50:05 -!- qop has changed nick to oklopok.
21:50:48 <fizzie> You might take a more axiomatic view instead of a constructivistic one. At least when it comes to relative amounts of emphasis on things.
21:51:04 <oklopok> i should probably be careful about what i say around you helsingans, i hate hearing about how much better your uni is.
21:52:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: "Vector and matrix algebra. Linear equation systems. Differential and integral calculus of one variable. Introduction to number theory. Basics of graph thory." I've translated the typo here too.
21:52:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, did the typo mean anything in Finnish
21:53:40 <GregorR> Typos is amongst the top reasons why web translators are useless :P
21:53:57 <Deewiant> Just run a spellchecker over it
21:54:30 <fizzie> It went "verkkoteorian" β "verkkoterion"; I guess "graph theory" β "graph thory" is reasonable approximation; or maybe "graph throy". (The Finnish version is the genitive case, too.)
21:55:15 <Deewiant> teoria -> terio is more like theory -> thyro IMO
21:55:31 <fizzie> Yes. That's good, too.
21:59:42 <fizzie> If you have graph thyroid cancer, it means your vertices are multiplying with no limits.
22:00:37 <GregorR> Take THAT, polynomial approximation scheme.
22:02:19 <oklopok> what's a polynomial approximation scheme
22:02:30 <oklopok> all i know is there's a course that covers them
22:02:51 <Deewiant> It's a scheme that approximates polynomially
22:03:21 <oklopok> finds a polynom that approximates, approximates in polynomial time?
22:04:13 <Deewiant> Polynomial-time algorithm that approximates something
22:04:57 <Deewiant> You should've inserted an "or" there, I couldn't parse that
22:05:26 <oklopok> well mostly mine, but somewhat yours too
22:07:27 <fizzie> Or a semicolon instead of a comma. Any Prolog-speaking person would then have parsed it correctly.
22:07:57 <Deewiant> Unfortunately Prolog-understanding would've failed at lexing
22:08:20 <oklopok> i was going for a list of suggestions to get him to elaborate
22:08:41 <fizzie> Oh, but then it worked just fine.
22:08:44 <Deewiant> Maybe you should've wrapped it in []
22:13:50 <oklopok> i was like box -> birthday present -> i wonder when Deewiant's birthday is
22:14:07 <fizzie> Maybe you should've explicitly created a std::vector<std::string> and push_back()ed the suggestions there!
22:14:58 <oklopok> aren't se using namespace std on #esoteric?
22:15:27 <Deewiant> I should hope the namespace isn't that polluted
22:15:53 * oklopok eyes at fizzie with himself
22:16:03 <oklopok> you don't get that reference
22:16:09 <oklopok> kerlo said he's his own ear
22:16:19 <oklopok> so i thought i'd be my own eye during that sentence
22:16:38 <oklopok> okay getting out of hand again, i'll go make pizza ->
22:22:47 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:38:36 <ehird> what a coincidence
22:38:41 <ehird> it is going into my mouth.
22:39:07 <oklopok> i don't, i drank some coke, then read a page, then irced.
22:39:22 <ehird> oklopok: are you irked about that
22:39:57 <ehird> Deewiant: whuz fungespace again? sparse 2d array + what's that weird bound thing
22:40:38 <Deewiant> For y, you need to know the min/max point describing the smallest rectangle that bounds it
22:41:05 <ehird> Deewiant: umm I recall it being simpler
22:41:11 <ehird> wasn't it like you recorded the lenght of each line
22:41:33 <Deewiant> I don't do anything currently; CCBI fails at that
22:41:49 <Deewiant> But that is essentially what you need to know
22:42:02 <ehird> Deewiant: oh, so if you just have a sparse 2d array you should be fine in non-edge cases?
22:42:18 <ehird> i mean how does that interact with wrapping
22:42:20 <Deewiant> For non-edge cases you can get by with a lot ;-P
22:42:25 <ehird> you have to know when you've reached the end
22:42:31 <ehird> so surely you have to store bounds of each line
22:42:39 <Deewiant> But for wrapping you don't need to know the smallest rectangle
22:42:54 <Deewiant> Strictly, according to my interpretation, yes
22:42:59 <ehird> well, smallest rectangle is just shrinking when you replace an end with a space right?
22:43:02 <Deewiant> At least AnMaster accepted it and implemented it :-P
22:43:46 <AnMaster> efunge have exact bounds too since a few days
22:43:48 <ehird> Deewiant: http://pastie.org/460291.txt?key=l9dauneba2wsru0bgfhza Voila?
22:46:44 <Deewiant> It's a LANGUAGE pragma, it enables the BangPatterns extension
22:47:23 <ehird> bang patterns = !Foo
22:47:30 <ehird> data Point = Point { x :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int
22:47:30 <ehird> , y :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int }
22:47:36 <ehird> an unboxed tuple of strict platform integers
22:47:45 <Deewiant> ehird: You don't need bang patterns for that.
22:47:55 <Deewiant> Strict fields are not an extension.
22:48:10 <ehird> I should probably put this into git sometime
22:48:34 <oklopok> bang patterns... there's probably a haskell porno with that name
22:48:41 <ehird> oklopok: that would be awesome
22:48:50 <ehird> also Strictness Analysis
22:48:57 <ehird> a bdsm haskell porno
22:49:29 <ehird> AnMaster: weird, unused VCS
22:49:34 <oklopok> Deewiant: afaik it can be used like that.
22:49:34 <ehird> think arch-levels of weirdness
22:49:40 <AnMaster> I was just surprised at Deewiant
22:49:46 <ehird> we've discussed it lately
22:49:54 <Deewiant> Monotone is the first DVCS I tried, or Darcs
22:49:59 <AnMaster> ehird, clearly you should use RCS.
22:50:07 <Deewiant> That was at the point when I couldn't even understand the point of SVN
22:50:10 <ehird> AnMaster: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:50:16 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:50:18 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:50:21 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:50:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, now that is even nastier!
22:52:27 <ehird> Deewiant: Do you have a solution to those leaning-left data decls btw?
22:53:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, that helps too, when you have |s
22:53:53 <ehird> wait you were serious?
22:54:23 <AnMaster> -type supervisor_start_child_result() :: {ok, supervisor_child_pid()}
22:54:23 <AnMaster> | {ok, supervisor_child_pid(), _}
22:54:23 <AnMaster> | {error, supervisor_child_error()}.
22:54:47 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
22:54:50 <ehird> i quite like brace-y languages, because they don't lean
22:54:55 <AnMaster> -type supervisor_start_child_result()
22:54:56 <AnMaster> :: {ok, supervisor_child_pid()}
22:54:56 <AnMaster> | {ok, supervisor_child_pid(), _}
22:54:56 <AnMaster> | {error, supervisor_child_error()}.
22:55:04 <ehird> yep, that's ocaml/haskell style
22:55:28 <ehird> psygnisfive: to the right of code
22:55:30 <AnMaster> -type supervisor_start_child_result()
22:55:30 <AnMaster> :: {ok, supervisor_child_pid()}
22:55:30 <AnMaster> | {ok, supervisor_child_pid(), _}
22:55:30 <AnMaster> | {error, supervisor_child_error()}.
22:56:07 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: foo = bar versus foo =\n bar
22:56:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes it works nicely. Not idiomatic for erlang though.
22:56:21 <ehird> x :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int,
22:56:23 <ehird> y :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int
22:56:42 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Long lines versus ones broken up like these guys have been spamming the channel with
22:56:44 <oklopok> WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING HERE
22:56:50 <ehird> my uncomprehension is UNBOUNDED.
22:57:14 <psygnisfive> hnce why you can predict rightly that ehird is talking
22:57:35 <ehird> grr, having to cd src before runhaskell Main.hs is irritating
22:57:44 <oklopok> i always read "noone" as a cutified version of "none"
22:58:05 <ehird> list-tries is a Haskell library which implements the trie (Wikipedia article) and Patricia trie (Wikipedia article) data structures.
22:58:08 <ehird> Deewiant: that already exists.
22:58:32 <ehird> Assuming you have the cabal-install tool installed and working, the easiest way to obtain Glob is with the cabal install list-tries command.
22:58:36 <ehird> on the list-tries page
22:58:49 <ehird> that's a very easy way to do something else!
22:59:25 <ehird> oh blah, I forgot that lahey space is a pain to implement
22:59:46 <Deewiant> ehird: Tries existed in the form of IntMap and bytestring-trie, not otherwise.
22:59:49 <AnMaster> -spec start_child(supref(), child_spec() | [any()]) -> {ok, pid_undef()}
22:59:50 <AnMaster> | {already_started, pid_undef()}
22:59:52 <Deewiant> And bytestring-trie didn't even exist when I started.
23:00:04 <ehird> AnMaster: that's awful
23:00:20 <Deewiant> Why is it awful now but not when you wrote it?
23:00:21 <AnMaster> since it is used elsewhere I think
23:00:45 <Deewiant> I don't think it's bad at all.
23:01:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it goes past 80 cols
23:02:22 <AnMaster> -spec start_child(supref(), child_spec() | [any()]) ->
23:02:22 <AnMaster> | {already_started, pid_undef()}
23:02:25 <ehird> I don't care about your 1980s 80s.
23:03:04 <Deewiant> I care about them but I use a tab width of 3 so others who care aren't so lucky
23:04:07 <fizzie> It's a prime choice EH EH EH.
23:04:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, good. apart from the forced laugher.
23:04:42 <GregorR> <Deewiant> 4 is pointlessly large
23:05:15 <ehird> 3.14 could work fine.
23:05:20 <ehird> it'd change at very nested depths
23:05:49 <Deewiant> Wouldn't you want it to get smaller at high nestings? :-P
23:06:32 <Deewiant> I've used all of 2,3,4,8 and settled on 3.
23:06:34 <AnMaster> ehird, no, not rounded to whole cols in display!
23:07:15 <AnMaster> ehird, it must display it offset compared to other mono-space text!
23:07:22 <Deewiant> I think I very briefly used 1 but that kinda sucked
23:09:28 <fizzie> ^ul (3)S((!)(?))(~^:Sa~a*~:^):^
23:09:29 <fungot> 3?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? ...too much output!
23:09:56 <fizzie> A not-a-power-of-two tab, that is.
23:10:13 <Deewiant> Why should it be a power of two?
23:10:26 <ehird> I wonder how 6 space indentation is
23:10:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's a computar thing.
23:10:46 <Deewiant> fizzie: I note that your nick's length is not a power of two.
23:11:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, but my tab length (4) is.
23:11:11 <Deewiant> Not everything on a computers has to be a power of two. :-P
23:12:30 <ehird> Deewiant: is there a way to runhaskell with an include dir
23:12:34 <ehird> runhaskell src/Main.hs
23:12:40 <ehird> w/ src/foo available
23:12:43 <Deewiant> I don't know, I don't use stuff like that
23:13:25 * lifthrasiir writing 15-page-long essay on a topic which i don't care so much and which deadline is 8 hours after
23:16:02 <ehird> Goddamn you lahey space
23:16:37 <oklopok> lifthrasiir: i refuse to believe history can be complicated, but i can imagine writing about it would be
23:16:56 <ehird> lifthrasiir: which korea are you in? the dictator one or the high speed interwebs one. well err okay the answer to that one is fairly obvious, I doubt esolangs are encouraged in the other one
23:17:00 <ehird> but you know, have to send it anyway
23:17:04 <ehird> otherwise it'd be wasted typing.
23:17:29 <lifthrasiir> ooh, of course the latter, south one. but that distinction is made in mid-20C anyway.
23:18:09 <ehird> i imagine writing about north korean history is rather easy
23:18:22 <psygnisfive> http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/04/one_step_closer_to_a_holodeck.php
23:18:37 <ehird> "Once upon a time, Kim Il-sung created the world."
23:19:20 <ehird> i want brain implants :<
23:19:45 <oklopok> i just want plants in my brain
23:21:02 <pikhq> ehird: The one with Internet access at all, of course. ;p
23:21:10 <ehird> North Korea doesn't have net?
23:21:26 <pikhq> Except in a few limited circumstances, yes.
23:21:46 <ehird> pikhq: Does it have a national net at least?
23:21:53 <pikhq> (a university or two has censored satellite access, and Kim Jong-Il has his own Internet access)
23:22:06 <pikhq> Yes, but not that many people have access to it.
23:22:25 <ehird> I thought it was, y'know, connected, just censored to hell like maybe only govt approved sites
23:23:20 <pikhq> North Korea is a land that hardly has television and radio. ;)
23:23:42 <ehird> Yar... it's just the modern looking cities fool you.
23:24:04 <pikhq> Modern looking and eerily empty.
23:24:34 <ehird> "This is an impoverished country where televisions and radios are hard-wired to receive only government-controlled frequencies. Cellphones were banned outright in 2004. In May, the Committee to Protect Journalists in New York ranked North Korea No. 1 β over also-rans like Burma, Syria and Uzbekistan β on its list of the β10 Most Censored Countries.β "
23:25:33 <oklopok> might be pretty cool to have a country like that
23:25:51 <ehird> Korea Computer Center!
23:25:58 <ehird> β North Korea govt site
23:26:05 <oklopok> maybe esoland will be like that
23:26:48 <ehird> "Politics" links to /en/great
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23:28:02 <ehird> pikhq: "Some small βinformation technology storesβ β crude cybercafes β have also cropped up. But these, too, connect only to the countryβs closed network. "
23:28:16 <ehird> So I assume nationet is widely available, just not in homes.
23:28:24 <ehird> "According to The Daily NK, a pro-democracy news site based in South Korea, computer classes at one such store cost more than six months wages for the average North Korean (snipurl.com/DailyNK). "
23:28:27 <ehird> Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr not
23:29:05 <pikhq> Available, but not affordable.
23:30:01 <ehird> It would have been fun if lifthrasiir was in north korea and his client self-destructed when I mentioned it :-D
23:31:04 <lifthrasiir> then i'll wish the self-destruction occurs at both end.
23:37:19 <ehird> 32-bit fungespace is 65536 petabytes
23:38:26 <ehird> lifthrasiir: how many sloc is pyfunge?
23:39:24 <ehird> lifthrasiir: w/o fingerprints?
23:40:14 <ehird> so 1650 lines of actual interp
23:41:28 <ehird> after I get fungespace done I'll probably breeze through the rest of funge98 core
23:42:54 <oklopok> ehird: you making like haskell ffunge
23:43:19 <oklopok> i typoed funge, but it looks faster that way.
23:43:33 <oklopok> it's like the word is a racecar or something.
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23:43:45 <lifthrasiir> that should be fffunge, short for fast-forward funge
23:46:56 <ehird> i could have that in my debugger
23:46:58 <ehird> I plan to have a scrubber
23:47:04 <ehird> so you can go back and forwards in fungetime
23:47:16 <ehird> (as well as have the IP have a shadow of where it's been recently etc)
23:47:26 <ehird> and let you edit fungespace on the fly
23:48:02 <ehird> so by dragging the scrubber along, you fast forward funge
23:57:26 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> parseFungespace "Hello, world!"
23:57:26 <ehird> Fungespace {space = fromList [(Point {x = 0, y = 0},72),(Point {x = 1, y = 0},101),(Point {x = 2, y = 0},108),(Point {x = 3, y = 0},108),(Point {x = 4, y = 0},111),(Point {x = 5, y = 0},44),(Point {x = 7, y = 0},119),(Point {x = 8, y = 0},111),(Point {x = 9, y = 0},114),(Point {x = 10, y = 0},108),(Point {x = 11, y = 0},100),(Point {x = 12, y = 0},33)], bounds = fromList []}
23:57:30 <ehird> Doesn't do bounds yet, oh well.
23:57:40 <ehird> (that's "Hello, world!")
23:57:47 <ehird> that's in the line before :D
00:02:40 <ehird> the default bounds are left=0 and right=0
00:02:45 <ehird> and parsing only ever extends right
00:02:54 <ehird> Deewiant: how does this handle vertical?
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00:25:25 <oklopok> is there an alternative to answering
00:28:08 <ehird> I am about to get you addicted to another pointless game.
00:28:22 <ehird> oklopok: http://sebleedelisle.com/games/moonlander3d/
00:28:26 <ehird> arrow keys + space
00:28:30 <ehird> land on the straight four lines
00:30:06 <oklopok> i used to play a 2d version of that when i was 6
00:31:21 <ehird> oklopok: you have to land softly and straight
00:31:34 <ehird> oklopok: and you have to find a landing pad
00:31:41 <ehird> they're four straight lines, can't miss em
00:31:51 <oklopok> i guess i just wasn't careful enough.
00:32:18 <ehird> keep track of your score, it resets as soon as you crash
00:32:20 <oklopok> i thought any straight line worked
00:32:24 <ehird> so look at it before doing that :P
00:54:01 <oklopok> ehird: okay succeeded at first attempt
00:54:09 <ehird> oklopok: that was a long first attempt
00:54:37 <oklopok> i watched an episode of american dad
00:54:54 <oklopok> i had 100 fuel, and 200 perfect landing score
00:55:12 <oklopok> but took about 20 seconds to land
00:56:22 <ehird> i landed but failed :D
00:57:33 <oklopok> okay i have no idea how you see the score
00:57:40 <oklopok> i can land pretty much consistently
00:57:45 <ehird> it goes up when you land
01:23:15 <oklopok> well umm i need to sleep now
01:24:11 <oklopok> you shouldn't it's bad for you
01:26:49 <oklopok> are you trying to trick me
01:27:39 <ehird> oklopok: well yes...
01:27:44 <ehird> i was hoping once you did it would be ok...
01:29:22 <oklopok> be it a twofold glio, but i cannot agree to that.
01:29:53 <ehird> oklopok: but can the glio be of the folding?
01:30:00 <ehird> the fixed point glio conservative lawyering
01:30:06 <ehird> that uses levitation, see
01:31:59 <ehird> "twofold glio" you say
01:32:03 <ehird> so that's a folded glio under twice
01:32:09 <ehird> now, if we say infinite-fold glio
01:32:17 <ehird> and unfold it, that's a fixed point glio
01:32:29 <ehird> and, we can apply glio to conservative lawyering -- well known to involve levitation --
01:32:34 <ehird> and derive a proof of levitation
01:32:53 <ehird> so what i'm saying is, basically it's a proof that levitation is good
01:32:54 <oklopok> rather obvious when you think about it
01:33:31 <ehird> those infinite glios are elegant
01:34:39 <oklopok> okay mister, i'm going to sleep now
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02:41:23 <GregorR> coppro: So, is there a reason you named yourself "shit"?
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02:41:49 * coppro sets the counter of people who misread his name to 4
02:42:13 <GregorR> I didn't misread it, but if I named myself "crapp" people wouldn't say "Oh, that clearly has no relation to the word 'crap'"
02:43:03 <coppro> and no, no particular reason :P
02:43:10 <GregorR> (Even if my name was Crap Partridge)
02:44:48 <GregorR> I remember there was somebody on here a while ago called sekmet (sekhmet? Sekkmet? Something like that). Because I recognized "met" as Ancient Egyptian for penis I looked up his name in Ancient Egyptian, and although I couldn't find a way of reading it that included "penis" it is sekem -et, which means "grey haired woman"
02:45:10 <GregorR> By the way, don't ask me why I know the ancient Egyptian word for penis ...
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12:22:21 <fizzie> Help, I'm trapped in a topic factory.
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12:41:11 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe you didn't see my "hi ais523"
12:41:35 <ais523> I must have netsplitted away before you said it
12:41:52 <AnMaster> well, it didn't show it as split yet, but detection isn't instant
12:42:07 <AnMaster> was a minute before it showed any split.
12:44:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I figured out a way around that EPL/GPL issue. Clearly I can as an author use a differently licensed open source library in my GPL program. Otherwise you couldn't write GPL programs for languages with standard libraries licensed under MPL and so on. Or GPL program using the platform specific API on Windows or OS X (needed for graphical programs for example). So I'll make this code I need a sep
12:44:41 <AnMaster> arate library, licensed under original license. Then make it a dependency.
12:45:13 <ais523> ofc, it's theoretically impossible to break the license on your own code
12:45:15 <AnMaster> it is potentially useful for other people too.
12:45:21 <ais523> the problem is whether downstream users can use it legally
12:45:26 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I will probably bundle this library.
12:45:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what about "special linking exception" or similar.
12:45:53 <AnMaster> well not the GCC style one. But a reverse one.
12:46:41 <AnMaster> like "as a special exception you may link this program against the EPL licensed Erlang runtime libraries and <extended supervisor name, yet to be decided>."
12:46:54 <ais523> yep, although that isn't worded correctly
12:47:06 <AnMaster> so what is the correct wording.
12:47:21 <AnMaster> yet you know it isn't the correct one.
12:47:22 <ais523> but you want to mention which explicit right under copyright law you're allowing
12:47:29 <ais523> in this case, you want to allow derivative works
12:48:08 <ais523> "as a special exception to this license, you may create a derivative work from this work by linking it against EPL licensed Erlang runtime libraries even if it would not normally be permitted by the text of the license on this work"
12:48:16 <ais523> that's probably not perfect
12:48:19 <ais523> but it's better than what you wrote
12:48:42 <AnMaster> it is just a "need non-GPL library" case. And after looking at the logic of the supervisor module.... No way I'm going to try to do a black box reimplementation of it. It is very sophisticated and handles lots of strange edge cases.
12:49:43 <AnMaster> ais523, there are some other GPL erlang programs. I'll take a look at their license file later.
12:49:50 <ais523> AnMaster: that special exception, btw, wouldn't allow people to redistribute binaries created by linking the EPL supervisor to your program
12:49:54 <ais523> but would allow them to do the linking
12:49:55 <AnMaster> anyway, where would that be put? In the copyright file header.
12:50:12 <ais523> general habit is in a comment at the top of the source, and in the readme
12:50:13 <AnMaster> ais523, um... erlang links at runtime.
12:50:39 <ais523> but say some sort of compiled erlang is invented in future, the license won't automatically extend to that without your intervention
12:51:21 <AnMaster> ais523, erlang does support compiling to native code (HiPE), but the linking is still done when the modules are loaded. And modules are loaded as needed. Meaning if a module is never called it won't be loaded.
12:51:55 <ais523> AnMaster: the point here is that licences don't just cover current uses, but all the uses that might be invented in future
12:51:58 <AnMaster> this messes up profile results, making the callstacks look odd.
12:52:18 <ais523> it's important to be able to determine if something is legal, even if the license never thought of it
12:52:41 <AnMaster> (suddenly you see a reference to error_handler:undefined_function/3 in the callstack).
13:28:53 <Deewiant> http://iki.fi/deewiant/deps-20090428.png - CCBI's module dependency graph
13:29:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what tool did you use
13:29:45 <Deewiant> The thing that draws the graph is graphviz's dot
13:29:48 <AnMaster> since I had to zoom out so much to see it all
13:31:20 <Deewiant> 1 is tricky to graph since the fingerprint modules are isolated
13:31:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why doesn't fixp and toys use ccbi.random
13:32:18 <Deewiant> They do, they just don't import it.
13:32:25 <AnMaster> also, isolated in what way. IIRC they called core functions.
13:32:38 <Deewiant> Isolated in the sense that they're not imported from anywhere.
13:32:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok... that seems odd. Why doesn't it graph uses rather than imports.
13:32:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you have a static list in 2 now
13:33:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Because it's not a D frontend, it just greps for import
13:33:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for C, doxygen can graph #includes iirc.
13:34:24 <Deewiant> I'm sure I could modify dimdotter to grep for #include quite easily :-P
13:36:27 <Deewiant> Anyhoo, I just thought that was a funny pic, with the way the fingerprints fan out like that and all.
13:41:37 <ais523> does CCBI2 pass Mycology yet?
13:41:53 <Deewiant> Of course, I don't think there's a version in the Git that doesn't. :-)
13:44:19 <Deewiant> Although this might explain it. The first 2.0 commit: 21 files changed, 3165 insertions(+), 2394 deletions(-)
13:44:39 <ais523> that's not how you're meant to use an easily-branchable VCS...
13:45:06 <Deewiant> I know, I just don't like the idea of something that doesn't even compile being a logged commit
13:46:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I know what you mean
13:46:25 <AnMaster> making sure each compile is good for bisection too.
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13:46:40 <Deewiant> That just unfortunately leads to changes like the above.
13:48:04 <Deewiant> Hmm, it seems that my rewrite of the tracer is included in that change; that could've been separated, certainly.
13:48:28 <Deewiant> Other than that I don't think there's much room for reducing it.
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15:03:52 <Slereah> I am at the science factory beep beep
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16:13:20 <ehird> "[citation needed][10]" β Wikipedia
16:13:28 <ehird> Like instructions on a toothpick.
16:13:45 <ais523> would be even funnier if [10] was an {{unref}} template or something
16:13:54 <ehird> 18:41:23 <GregorR> coppro: So, is there a reason you named yourself "shit"?
16:13:57 <ehird> EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS.
16:15:21 <ehird> 04:46:41 <AnMaster> like "as a special exception you may link this program against the EPL licensed Erlang runtime libraries and <extended supervisor name, yet to be decided>."
16:15:24 <ehird> don't you love Erlang idioms?
16:15:31 <ehird> an erlang idiom is to use the EPL, presumably
16:15:56 <ehird> "And after looking at the logic of the supervisor module.... No way I'm going to try to do a black box reimplementation of it."
16:16:04 <ehird> How can you do a black box reimplementation if you've seen the code?
16:17:48 <ehird> 05:44:39 <ais523> that's not how you're meant to use an easily-branchable VCS...
16:17:53 <ehird> I find it hard to use a vcs at first
16:18:05 <ehird> of some sort or another
16:18:20 <ehird> 'git init' makes me twitch for new projects
16:18:34 <ehird> Deewiant: I need to store two boundary maps, vertical & horizontal, right
16:20:28 <ehird> ais523: so I've gone insane and am implementing befunge98
16:20:37 <ehird> you were there eysterday
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16:28:44 <AnMaster> <ehird> an erlang idiom is to use the EPL, presumably <--- why not read it all.
16:36:11 <Deewiant> ehird: You need to know the bounds in all directions.
16:36:24 <ehird> Deewiant: Including diagonally and (3,4) and shit?
16:36:33 <ehird> Umm, that sounds like infinite work to me.
16:37:04 <Deewiant> Well, basically yes, since you need to be able to wraparound with all possible deltas.
16:37:20 <ehird> Deewiant: So, um, how can I avoid doing infinite computation?
16:37:20 <ais523> you can compute bounds for flying IPs on the fly
16:37:22 <Deewiant> But you don't need to store the info for all deltas, of course.
16:37:36 <ehird> http://www.opera.com/? β LOL
16:37:40 <ehird> (visit in a graphical browser, srsly)
16:37:46 <ais523> and it doesn't matter if you try to run a few out-of-bounds commands, because of the spaces
16:38:02 <ais523> the only drawback to not knowing diagonal bounds is performance problems
16:38:17 <Deewiant> ehird: You don't need to store even as much info as you're planning on storing for horiz/vertical bounds, two points (min/max of bounding rectangle) are enough
16:38:20 <ais523> ehird: OK, that's ridiculous, and it isn't even april 1
16:38:29 <ehird> ais523: opera's 15 years old
16:38:37 <Deewiant> Of course, the more you store the easier it is to calculate it when you're actually wrapping, I guess.
16:40:14 <ehird> Does that handle the minimum-of-each-line?
16:40:19 <ehird> That y needs or sth
16:40:27 <Deewiant> You don't need minimum-of-each-line.
16:40:38 <ehird> I thought you did :P
16:40:51 <Deewiant> 2009-04-28 00:40:38 ( Deewiant) For y, you need to know the min/max point describing the smallest rectangle that bounds it
16:41:01 <Deewiant> Where 'it' is the whole funge-space.
16:41:09 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.opera.com/? β LOL <-- hahaha
16:41:28 <AnMaster> ehird, funny url it redirects to as well "http://www.opera.com/?mode=forreals"
16:42:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, I have a fungespace data structure and parser in 41 lines of code. Now I just have to add bounds stuff
16:42:58 <ehird> (Yes, it handles transparent-space and \n,\r\n,\r)
16:44:10 <ehird> Deewiant: What's f and where is it mentioned in the spec
16:44:11 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: just for curiousity, will CCBI 2 support trefunge?
16:44:42 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, you mean trefunge ^L?
16:44:47 <ehird> Befunge98-only, so.
16:45:00 <Deewiant> ehird: You still need to handle it, just like Unefunge needs to handle line breaks.
16:45:12 <ehird> "In Trefunge-98, the Form Feed (12) character increments the z coordinate and resets the x and y coordinates to zero. "
16:45:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you will support trefunge, then will you have some mycology part to test it?
16:45:20 <ehird> The rest of the doc mentions non-newline/space chars just going into the field, Deewiant.
16:45:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Possibly something small.
16:45:35 <ehird> Ergo, my current behaviour -- putting 12 in the space -- is correct.
16:45:38 <Deewiant> ehird: "Subsequent lines in Unefunge are simply appended to the first, and the end of the source file indicates the end of the (single) line. End-of-line markers are never copied into Funge-Space. "
16:45:46 <ehird> Deewiant: In unefunge.
16:45:56 <AnMaster> ehird, That behaviour extends to \f for befunge
16:45:56 <Deewiant> ehird: Applies analogously for \f in Befunge.
16:46:06 <ehird> Uh huh. Where in the spec does it say this?
16:47:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I hope you can handle all the line endings. For different parts of the same file.
16:47:33 <ehird> go fs (Point x y) ('\n':zs) = go fs (Point x (y+1)) zs
16:47:34 <ehird> go fs (Point x y) ('\r':'\n':zs) = go fs (Point x (y+1)) zs
16:47:35 <ehird> go fs (Point x y) ('\r':zs) = go fs (Point x (y+1)) zs
16:47:37 <ehird> go fs (Point x y) (' ':zs) = go fs (Point (x+1) y) zs
16:47:59 <Deewiant> go fs p ('\f':zs) = go fs p zs
16:48:08 <ehird> Deewiant: Not spec compliant.
16:48:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Aww, wuzzat? Cute lil' cfunge's parser is longer than a few lines?
16:48:27 <Deewiant> ehird: Taking the spec too literally is not always the best idea.
16:48:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Fair enough.
16:48:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but C is quite verbose. And it uses various shortcuts to optimise initial loading
16:49:36 <Deewiant> ehird: There are a bunch of places like this where something is said for one case, and then the other case is forgotten about, but it's fairly obvious what the other case should've been.
16:50:23 <Deewiant> Ah yes, t. If you take t literally every t will be a forkbomb.
16:50:35 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> mycology <- readFile "/Users/ehird/Downloads/mycology/mycology.b98"; return ()
16:50:41 <ehird> deedededeeeeeeeeeeeeee
16:50:48 <ehird> I will parse theeeeeee
16:50:59 <ehird> ais523: because it forks onto the same place
16:51:04 <Deewiant> ais523: It doesn't spec that the child IP should move off the instruction.
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16:51:30 <ais523> Deewiant: doesn't it state that the IP reflects there?
16:51:39 <ais523> IMO, a reflection implies movement to the location you reflected from
16:51:43 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> parseFungespace mycology Loading package syb ... linking ... done.
16:51:44 <ehird> Loading package array-0.2.0.0 ... linking ... done.
16:51:45 <ehird> Loading package containers-0.2.0.1 ... linking ... done.
16:51:47 <ehird> Fungespace {space = fromList [ ** LONG PAUSE ** FLOOD OF POINTS
16:51:59 <AnMaster> ais523, no reflection just implies reversing IP iirc.
16:52:08 <Deewiant> ais523: IMO it just means inverting the delta.
16:52:11 <AnMaster> if you are going to prove otherwise a LOT will need to change.
16:52:18 <ehird> 62),(Point {x = 57757, y = 392},118),(P
16:52:24 <lifthrasiir> "The child IP's delta is reversed (a la r) from its parent's, though."
16:52:37 <lifthrasiir> "a la r" could imply such thing, but i'm not sure
16:52:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I think you forgot to reset x.
16:52:44 <ais523> well, does r specify that the IP moves?
16:53:07 <AnMaster> there is one difference though.
16:53:15 <ehird> Hey, it parses mycology quite quickly.
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16:53:39 <ehird> AnMaster: 46 lines of unoptimized code
16:53:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster tries to /run/ Mycology in less than a tenth of that.
16:53:46 <AnMaster> ehird, but if your goal isn't speed then I won't mention it again.
16:54:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Compliance and insane amount of fingerprints (e.g. hopefully MKRY ones
16:54:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Compliance and insane amount of fingerprints (e.g. hopefully *all* MKRY ones) first
16:54:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 0.035 is quite possible, with clean environment
16:54:25 <ehird> x :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int,
16:54:27 <ehird> y :: {-# UNPACK #-} !Int
16:54:29 <ehird> } deriving (Show, Eq, Ord)
16:54:31 <ais523> note that IFFI was written to be independent of INTERCAL
16:54:31 <ehird> β Enough optimization for one day.
16:54:39 <ais523> you can implement it in pure-Funge, but it's feral
16:54:41 <ehird> lifthrasiir: FNGR's feral right? No problem.
16:54:47 <ehird> I'm doing TRDS too.
16:54:49 <ehird> Which will be EASY.
16:54:54 <ais523> ehird: FNGR contradicts the spec
16:55:01 <ehird> I can just keep a list of all states as I go
16:55:12 <ehird> Since that's how I'll have to write the interpreter loop anyway
16:55:14 <ehird> (sans keeping list)
16:55:18 <AnMaster> ehird, what about forward jumps with TRDS
16:55:19 <ais523> IMO, the correct treatment of FNGR is to switch to the old buggy RC/Funge interpretation of fingerprints to make it make sense
16:55:29 <ehird> AnMaster: sure, not insanely difficult
16:55:42 <Deewiant> Since I told him to add it. :-P
16:56:02 <ais523> ehird: one of AnMaster's fingerprints
16:56:07 <ais523> for asynchronous threading
16:56:09 <AnMaster> I'm implementing the core changes needed in efunge for it.
16:56:17 <Deewiant> That should be relatively easy
16:56:31 <ais523> well, not really, arguably you could just implement ATHR the same way as regular threading
16:56:33 <ehird> Thing with haskell is that it's hard to do feral stuff, so I'll have to come up with a modular interpreter.
16:56:38 <ehird> Which will make more feral things easy.
16:56:44 <ais523> by deliberately introducing asynchronies now and again
16:56:51 <ais523> and ferality is relative
16:56:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not if you consider the atomic stuff and such. And that it should be able to take advantage of SMP.
16:57:03 <ais523> IFFI may feel feral; but the only replacement it needs is of the main loop
16:57:03 <AnMaster> and possibly distributed nodes in the future.
16:57:04 <ehird> Anyway I'm having a debugger with a time scrubber (like media players) so that covers TRDS, really
16:57:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, I haven't seen the spec.
16:57:33 <AnMaster> I suspended the work on it during half a year or so.
16:57:34 <fizzie> ais523: It also does not use the word "reflects": "When a child IP is borne unto Funge-Space thus, its location, storage offset, and stack are all copied verbatim from the parent IP's. The child IP's delta is reversed (a la r) from its parent's, though."
16:57:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mostly. Some details changed.
16:57:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mostly related to how bounds are updated.
16:58:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, once ATHR is loaded mycoedge is undefined behaviour.
16:58:11 <ais523> that doesn't say the parent's IP moves either
16:58:33 <ais523> AnMaster: what's Funge-108's opinion on copying fingerprints from parent to child when t is used?
16:58:36 <AnMaster> ais523, ip always move after instruction executed.
16:59:09 <AnMaster> I have yet to see any interpreter which doesn't. Well CCBI didn't use to, but it changed.
16:59:28 <ehird> Deewiant: hmm, do I have to shrink min bounds too?
16:59:34 <ehird> i.e. if you have nothing on column 1
16:59:59 <AnMaster> only allocating stuff if there is anything to copy
17:00:07 <ehird> Deewiant: well, growing bounds is trivial, but I can't think of a non-completely-expensive computational way to shrink em
17:00:41 <ais523> you only have to worry about shrinking when you write a space
17:00:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Yep. AnMaster's solution was the equivalent of your "Map Int".
17:00:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lifthrasiir ais523 ehird: http://pastebin.ca/1406233 (all but lifthrasiir have seen it before, anyway note some stuff remains to be decided. It is subject to change.)
17:01:00 <ehird> Deewiant: But the map int only covers lines, not verticalines!
17:01:18 <AnMaster> ehird, check src/funge-space/funge-space.c
17:01:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Gee, you mean my original solution that you said I don't need?
17:01:22 <Deewiant> Or Map (Int,Bool) if you're so inclined, whatever.
17:01:28 <ehird> AnMaster: I can't; GPL3.
17:01:35 <ehird> Not worth the legal risk ;-)
17:01:37 <Deewiant> ehird: You didn't need it for what we were discussing.
17:01:44 <AnMaster> I use two counts, one for columns, one for rows.
17:01:48 <Deewiant> ehird: And you still don't need it.
17:01:55 <ais523> ehird: I don't think reading GPL3 code is illegal
17:01:59 <ehird> Deewiant: But it makes it more convenient, no?
17:01:59 <Deewiant> ehird: As you said, it's just expensive to check it if you don't have something like that.
17:02:04 <ais523> nor copying the algorithm, as AnMaster doesn't have a patent on it
17:02:06 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, and that I did say. :-)
17:02:06 <AnMaster> I do some mad logic to try to reduce the need of updates.
17:02:18 <ais523> although translating it might be
17:02:21 <ehird> ais523: There is some scary legal precedent.
17:02:38 <AnMaster> in fact I wrote it, and parts of it is black magic to me!
17:02:39 <ais523> ugh, I wouldn't be surprised
17:02:40 <ehird> If AnMaster said I can use cfunge algorithms under the MIT license, that'd work.
17:02:54 <ehird> ais523: America, I think, but I'm not one to risk these things
17:03:06 <ehird> despite not caring about copyright law
17:03:11 <AnMaster> ehird, Any disputes should be settled in Swedish court.
17:03:25 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I just quoted the EPL.
17:03:32 <AnMaster> iirc it says something like that.
17:03:53 <ehird> Any disputes should be settled in the Zimbabwean court.
17:04:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well EPL is like MPL s/US/Sweden/ s/Mozilla/Ericson/
17:04:10 <ehird> ugh, I hate the MPL
17:04:27 <ais523> ehird: you should require disputes to be settled in a Sealandish court
17:04:31 <ais523> or even better, an Agoran court
17:04:50 <ehird> data ColumnOrRow = Column | Row
17:05:03 <AnMaster> ehird, err you have a typo there
17:05:06 <ehird> Deewiant: so, bounds :: Map (Int,ColumnOrRow) Point
17:05:14 <AnMaster> data ColumnOrRow = Column | Row | SocketNotFound
17:05:41 <Deewiant> ehird: Something like that, whatever. Ask AnMaster: I haven't implemented it. :-P
17:05:51 <ehird> Deewiant: what's your stratergery
17:06:15 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't have strategy, I fail.
17:06:22 <Deewiant> ehird: I never shrink bounds, only grow them.
17:06:29 <ehird> Deewiant: The first step is admitting you have a problem.
17:06:29 -!- dbc has joined.
17:06:47 <Deewiant> The next step is waiting until CCBI 2's release for the solution.
17:06:58 <ehird> updateFungespace :: Point -> Int -> Fungespace -> Fungespace
17:06:58 <ehird> updateFungespace p v fs = fs { space = Map.insert p v (space fs) }
17:06:59 <ehird> β this is going to be so ugly when I add bounds logic :(
17:07:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Now I have to figure out how your strategy actually helps
17:08:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well my strategy is to: 1) Turn of EXACT_BOUNDS option if possible ;) 2) If not possible, and if bounds are large, iterate through all values in the sparse hash and find the extremes, scan the static array 3) if bounds are small scan from the edges inwards to find first set column/row
17:08:18 <AnMaster> the latter works better if you just end up shrinking 1-2 columns or so
17:08:28 <AnMaster> but is too slow for slowdown.b98
17:08:28 <ehird> Why do we need exact bounds again?
17:08:38 <ais523> ehird: the spec says so
17:08:47 <ais523> in particular, it can be queried in-program using the y command
17:09:17 <ais523> I still think it's possible to treat y lazily
17:09:38 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, I don't shrink bounds except for y. Oh and I also store a flag that indicates if bounds are minimal, or are *possibly* too large.
17:09:39 <ais523> and avoid calculating bounds unless mycoedge or slowdown or something deliberately tries to create a crazy bounds computation
17:09:51 <AnMaster> ehird, to make multiple y faster.
17:09:55 <ais523> Deewiant: does slowdown check exact bounds?
17:09:57 <AnMaster> something that mycology does a lot.
17:10:03 <ais523> ah, you could maybe chain mycoedge onto it
17:10:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I refuse to be anything but spec compliant. I think.
17:10:30 <AnMaster> ehird, so you plan to check for shrinking on every write to funge-space?
17:10:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I only need to do that on writes of ' ', duh.
17:10:46 <ehird> You can't shrink by writing anything else.
17:10:47 <Deewiant> ais523: It does so indirectly: you might loop through 2^(8*sizeof(cell)) whenever you wraparound, if you don't shrink bounds.
17:10:53 <AnMaster> actually I do it for wrap too, if difference between max and min is HUUUUGE.
17:11:00 <AnMaster> or slowdown.b98 wouldn't work.
17:11:06 <ais523> Deewiant: doing it directly would be interesting too, though, I think
17:11:24 <ehird> AnMaster: lol@special cases
17:11:25 <Deewiant> I didn't actually realize that it would do so indirectly.
17:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, yes of course. You only need to do it when either column or row count reach 0 in one of the edge columns even.
17:12:58 <ehird> Every write to fungespace, I need to check the bounds for both column and row.
17:12:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw slowdown is broken in efunge. It seems to have issues with bignum interpreters. If I make y lie and tell it it is 32 bit it works fine.
17:13:04 <ehird> Right? And then grow if necessary.
17:13:09 <ehird> I'll handle shrinking later.
17:13:17 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, I know, because it doesn't expect -1 from y.
17:13:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well. I can't push any max value. that just wouldn't work. There is no inf in integer bignum.
17:13:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It tries random numbers in the range [-2^(8 * y value), 2^(8 * y value)).
17:14:19 <Deewiant> Which probably ends up looping infinitely as it gets the range [0,0).
17:14:55 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. Anyway if you want to check algorithms currently you should go for ccbi and/or cfunge. cfunge if you want the fast ones.
17:15:13 <AnMaster> patches to make it even faster are welcome.
17:15:14 <Deewiant> CCBI if you want the BSD-licensed ones.
17:15:34 <ehird> Sorry, not copying any algorithms that aren't MIT-licensed ;-)
17:15:43 <ehird> Purity, correctness, completeness, simplicity and featurefulness! and speed
17:15:54 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, only viral licenses are incompatible
17:15:57 <ais523> BSD3 and MIT are almost identical
17:15:59 <ehird> but i'd have to include the bsd notice
17:16:01 <ehird> ais523: no, BSD2 = MIT
17:16:08 <ehird> BSD3 has the redundant clause
17:16:12 <ehird> ("don't use our name")
17:16:29 <ehird> which other laws already cover
17:16:29 <ehird> and BSD2 is so rare as to be nonexistant
17:16:33 <ehird> so MIT is the best choice
17:16:45 <AnMaster> ehird, correctness, speed, completeness, simplicity, featurefulness, purity is more like cfunge motto I suspect.
17:16:45 <ehird> (BSD2 also looks a bit silly, it has "1." and "2." for two short, very related clauses)
17:16:58 <AnMaster> not sure what "purity" means here.
17:17:01 <ehird> AnMaster: completeness? TRDS, anyone?
17:17:09 <ehird> purity means conceptual clarity and beauty of implementation
17:17:16 <AnMaster> ehird, TRDS comes under featurefulness doesn't it
17:17:17 <ehird> Deewiant: yes; other laws already cover it
17:17:28 <AnMaster> ehird, what is featurefulness then
17:17:41 <ehird> * Neither the name of the <organization> nor the
17:17:42 <ehird> names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products
17:17:44 <ehird> derived from this software without specific prior written permission.
17:17:47 <ehird> I'm pretty sure that's illegal anyway.
17:17:51 <Deewiant> ehird: That's the clause. I asked for the laws.
17:17:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not sure.
17:18:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well cfunge try to be complete in the features it *does* support.
17:18:22 <AnMaster> ehird, TRDS is one of the features it doesn't support.
17:18:24 <ehird> Deewiant: It's not illegal for me to, say, go air an advert saying "Endorsed by Matti Niemenmaa and his CCBI project!"?
17:18:28 <ehird> Well that's fucked up.
17:18:42 <ehird> I'm fairly sure it is.
17:18:54 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly depends on what country
17:19:30 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what did you think about http://pastebin.ca/1406233 btw
17:19:31 <ais523> ehird: certainly the advertising standards agency would get you for it, but that's not a legal system
17:19:37 <Deewiant> ehird: The way I see it it's more so that if somebody uses CCBI, they can't say "Uses award-winning CCBI technology by Matti Niemenmaa", which is a bit different IMO.
17:19:50 <ais523> and it would be libel if your product was so bad if it made Deewiant look bad as a result
17:19:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh well, I don't think clause #3 has ever actually been invoked
17:19:58 <ehird> so it's rather irrelevant
17:20:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, anything you might decide to implement once it is completed?
17:20:14 <ais523> as in, say if your product was rather dangerous, you claimed Deewiant had safety-checked it, Deewiant could sue you for libel for runing his reputation
17:20:16 <lifthrasiir> the spec seems quite reasonable, and i would implement it once it's completed
17:20:16 <Deewiant> ehird: That doesn't make it irrelevant. :-P
17:20:26 <ehird> Your mom is irrelevant
17:20:52 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, oh also I suspect python threads doesn't count as "true async", rather think about that multiprocessor module thingy (forgot if that was the name or not)
17:21:11 <lifthrasiir> (as i have to consider current fingerprint behavior anyway, ;P)
17:21:36 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, if it can't run two threads at once on separate cores it isn't done properly. That is my opinion.
17:21:50 <ehird> Your opinion is irrelevant to the spec.
17:22:00 <ehird> asynchronous threading does not imply multi cores
17:22:02 <ehird> SEE: hyperthreading
17:22:32 <AnMaster> ehird, right that is valid too. But if two cores are available. Or two cpus.
17:22:42 <AnMaster> I recommend it to be possible to use it.
17:22:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Letting the funge program loose on all cores?
17:22:50 <ehird> Awesome. How very stupid
17:22:51 <AnMaster> of course it depends on the OS and so on if that actually happens!
17:23:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm just discouraging lock step or other "not really concurrent" implementations.
17:23:46 <AnMaster> if it was a RFC it would say RECOMMENDED rather than MUST for that ;P
17:23:56 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: you mean the infamous GIL? then you're right, but interpreters are free to implement ATHR with randomized simulation so it doesn't really matter, i think.
17:24:05 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yes that was what I'm thinking about.
17:24:17 <ehird> global interpreter lock.
17:24:25 <AnMaster> ais523, python's equivilent of "big kernel lock" that used to exist way back.
17:24:29 <ais523> ah, I've heard of it but not the acronym
17:24:35 <ehird> ais523: tl;dr: python sucks
17:24:51 <ais523> ehird: wow, I didn't expect that comment coming from you
17:24:57 <ais523> I thought you liked it
17:25:03 <AnMaster> I had to bother with GIL when writing some code using the python C API.
17:25:10 <ehird> ais523: It's one of the better mainstream languages.
17:25:18 <ehird> And I often defend things I don't actually like.
17:25:27 <ehird> I've vehemently defended MS before.
17:25:29 <lifthrasiir> i think even interpreters with proper thread should try to randomize the execution, for example by using... several processes?
17:25:33 <ehird> Because I dislike inaccurate criticism.
17:25:38 <ais523> oh, I'll defend MS for things too
17:25:41 <AnMaster> ehird, under what conditions would you defend cfunge.
17:25:54 <ehird> AnMaster: if someone was saying it sucked because it was really slow?
17:25:59 <ais523> why spread FUD about MS when there are legitimate concerns?
17:26:03 <AnMaster> ehird, ok that would make sense.
17:26:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well if fizzie finished jitfunge and he said that I would not complain. But that is a special exception.
17:27:05 <ehird> Does funge need gc?
17:27:09 <ehird> I suppose you can't really.
17:27:14 <ehird> I mean, non-fungespace gc.
17:27:20 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, in fact I'm going as far as using different systems, some x86 and some amd64 and using distribution over network.
17:27:33 <AnMaster> ehird, some fingerprints could possibly need less manual memory management with it
17:27:41 <AnMaster> but that is about all I can think of
17:27:44 <ehird> right but nothing mandatory
17:27:54 <AnMaster> otherwise the memory management is fairly straightforward.
17:28:05 <ehird> bounds :: Map (Int,ColumnOrRow) Point
17:28:06 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what? It isn't distributed *yet* but it wouldn't be hard to do.
17:28:09 <ehird> bounds :: Map (Int,ColumnOrRow) Int
17:28:15 <ehird> it should be (Int,Int)
17:28:18 <ehird> for min and max bound
17:28:32 <ehird> AnMaster: your bounding strategy
17:28:35 <AnMaster> ehird, are you keeping a separate bound of each column?
17:28:47 <AnMaster> I'm just counting set cells in each column and row.
17:28:50 <ehird> That's what Deewiant said you do.
17:28:59 <AnMaster> someone must have misunderstood somewhere.
17:29:13 <ehird> On the subject of Python sucking,
17:29:17 <ehird> "A lot of people remarked that in my post on Tail Recursion Elimination I confused tail self-recursion with other tail calls, which proper Tail Call Optimization (TCO) also eliminates. I now feel more educated: tail calls are not just about loops"
17:29:30 <ehird> STOP WRITING A LANGUAGE RIGHT NOW AND READ SOME COMPUTER SCIENCE LITERATURE!
17:29:54 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: eh, the nightmare is not a difficulty of distributed one, but rather the expansion of that idea; i thought of a sort of electric sheep screensaver. *wink*
17:30:18 <ais523> well, the point is, I assume, that failing to optimise tail-recursion leads to stack overflows, whereas failing to optimise other tail-calls just slows you down a bit
17:30:18 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I never seen such a screensaver. I heard about them but no idea what the point of it is.
17:30:29 <ehird> AnMaster: they're pretty fractal
17:30:34 <ehird> and distributed stuff is fun
17:30:44 <lifthrasiir> that is a distributed fractal-generating screensaver, iirc. see http://www.electricsheep.org/
17:31:05 <ehird> ais523: mutual recursion
17:31:18 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, this is more "cluster distributed" than "boinc distributed" in case this is what the confusion is about. No idea if it is that.
17:31:23 <ais523> technically speaking, though, that's tail-recursion but not tail-self-recursin
17:31:28 <ehird> my point is that if guido doesn't understand trivial things like what tail call optimization is he's hardly qualified to make a language
17:31:29 <ais523> at least, it's tail and it's recursion
17:31:44 <ais523> and I think not understanding TCO is fine for certain forms of languages
17:31:46 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari.
17:31:56 <ais523> for instance, someone making a VHDL synthesizer will never come up against the issue at all
17:32:04 <ais523> because the only sort of function call in VHDL is inlining
17:32:05 <ehird> "First, as one commenter remarked, TRE is incompatible with nice stack traces" β did you not read the responses where it was shown how to retain thatβ½
17:32:06 <AnMaster> ais523, mutal recursion happens in efunge btw.
17:32:17 <AnMaster> well not a lot. But it can happen.
17:32:25 <ehird> oh, this is an older post before that
17:32:31 <ehird> f u /r/programming, start having accurate titles
17:32:41 <AnMaster> that is another feature of efunge lifthrasiir. Hot code updates. No downtime.
17:32:48 <AnMaster> for your enterprise befunge programs.
17:32:58 <AnMaster> the interpreter itself can be upgraded on the fly!
17:33:11 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, really I just get this for free because I use erlang... :D
17:33:56 <lifthrasiir> by the way, i have to implement TURT but didn't decide output format to use yet
17:33:57 <ehird> AnMaster: so, what's your actual structure, expressed in terms of (Map key value), (a,tuple), Bool (e.g. for column/row) and Int? :-P
17:34:18 <lifthrasiir> SVG, raw PNG (with pure python implementation?), or... postscript?
17:34:32 <ehird> lifthrasiir: svg & sdl
17:34:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know. I can express it in terms of static size_t colcount[STATIC_ARRAY_X] and a hash library!
17:34:55 <ais523> lifthrasiir: I'd suggest SVG
17:34:59 <ehird> AnMaster: come on, you have efunge. you surely know what an associative array is, what a tuple is, what a boolean is and what an integer is
17:35:05 <ais523> ehird: SDL isn't exactly a format...
17:35:11 <AnMaster> ehird, in efunge I don't do it that way
17:35:12 <ais523> ehird: sorry, boolean?
17:35:14 <lifthrasiir> ehird: so you mean the user can choose his/her favorite one, right?
17:35:25 <ehird> i'd default to sdl
17:35:30 <AnMaster> find_extremes([], MinX, MinY, MaxX, MaxY) ->
17:35:30 <AnMaster> find_extremes([{X,Y}|T], MinX, MinY, MaxX, MaxY) ->
17:35:30 <AnMaster> find_extremes(T, erlang:min(MinX,X),erlang:min(MinY,Y),
17:35:30 <AnMaster> erlang:max(MaxX,X),erlang:max(MaxY,Y)).
17:35:34 <AnMaster> recalculate_bounds_exact(Fungespace) ->
17:35:34 <AnMaster> % Get first item as base for new bounds.
17:35:34 <ehird> since it's "interactive" like console in/out
17:35:35 <AnMaster> [{FirstX,FirstY}|Coordinates] = ets:select(Fungespace, [{{'$1','$2'},[{'=/=','$2',$\s}],['$1']}]),
17:35:39 <AnMaster> NewBounds = find_extremes(Coordinates, FirstX, FirstY, FirstX, FirstY),
17:35:43 <AnMaster> put(fspacebounds_exact, true),
17:35:47 <AnMaster> ehird, + some logic to update fspacebounds_exact.
17:35:47 <ehird> AnMaster: I didn't ask for code.
17:35:51 <ehird> I asked for the data structure.
17:35:52 <AnMaster> far from as fast as the cfunge way.
17:35:52 * ais523 ponders what a Prolog funge would look like
17:35:58 <ehird> That cfunge uses,.
17:36:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well, cfunge uses associative array for funge space, except the static area around 0,0 as you know.
17:36:27 <ehird> Not for fungespace!
17:36:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I have a similar thing for the bounds.
17:36:33 <lifthrasiir> ais523: it could get TRDS feature for (almost) free.
17:36:48 <ais523> am I paranoid for looking at the cookies on Phorm's website every now and then to see if it's active on my connection?
17:36:56 <ais523> it isn't yet, but I'm worried they'll turn it on
17:37:25 <ehird> AnMaster: evil deep packet inspection β targeted ads company
17:37:27 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a long story, look it up on Google or Wikipedia or somewhere
17:37:29 <ehird> ais523: they're goingt o.
17:37:36 <ais523> that's why I keep checking
17:37:39 <ehird> ais523: use bogons ;)
17:37:47 <ais523> I've been thinking up ways to annoy Phorm already
17:38:00 <AnMaster> ais523, use ssl for most stuff of course.
17:38:05 <ais523> for instance, I've thought of a few ways to make websites that break in Phorm, but not anywhere else
17:38:22 <ais523> and I'll definitely be setting Phorm opt-out cookies once Phorm come online
17:38:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I suspect everyone will change from that isp soon
17:38:35 <ehird> AnMaster: HAHAHAAHA
17:38:37 <ehird> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
17:38:45 <ais523> AnMaster: unfortunately, there are only a few major ISPs and Phorm have got to all of them
17:39:02 <ehird> ais523: hay did I mention bogons
17:39:16 <ais523> thought of that, but it would be unlikely to help
17:39:17 <ehird> AnMaster: [[Phorm]]: Net income$-32,153,223 (2007)[3]
17:39:24 <ehird> AnMaster: That's good, at least :-P
17:39:27 <ehird> ais523: I mean the isp
17:39:30 <AnMaster> ais523, that's sad. But isn't this a violation of laws. Integrity and so on. After all you are paying them already. It isn't like it is free ads sponsored.
17:39:37 <ehird> it's perfectly legal
17:39:38 <ais523> AnMaster: it may be illegal
17:39:47 <ais523> in fact, the EU are suing the UK for not having prosecuted Phorm for it yet
17:39:50 <ehird> The website that hits back at the "privacy pirates'" smear campaign against Phorm.
17:39:50 <ehird> http://www.stopphoulplay.com/
17:39:53 <ais523> on the basis that they ought to have a low against it
17:40:46 <AnMaster> ehird, said he wasn't interested in how cfunge did it.
17:40:48 <ais523> anyway, I plan to try some experiments
17:40:53 <ehird> AnMaster: no i didn't!
17:41:01 <ehird> i want to know the *data structure* cfunge uses to store bounds
17:41:12 <ais523> it's my theory, for instance, that a web page behind a chain of exactly four redirects cannot be seen by a Phorm user, whether they have an opt-out cookie or not
17:41:14 <AnMaster> ght_fspacecount_hash_table_t * restrict col_count;
17:41:14 <AnMaster> ght_fspacecount_hash_table_t * restrict row_count;
17:41:18 <AnMaster> static funge_unsigned_cell cfun_static_use_count_col[FUNGESPACE_STATIC_X];
17:41:21 <AnMaster> static funge_unsigned_cell cfun_static_use_count_row[FUNGESPACE_STATIC_Y];
17:41:29 <AnMaster> those are the data structures used.
17:41:46 <ehird> I don't know the innate workings of cfunge's implementation, so concrete data structures are useless to me
17:41:54 <ehird> Thus why I asked for an abstract description
17:41:55 <ais523> on some web browsers, it might require more than four I suppose
17:42:34 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be like a triangle with sum of angles > 180
17:43:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't abstract. The algorithm is a ad-hoc thingy that works and is fast but isn't clean CS in any way.
17:43:38 <ehird> that makes no sense
17:44:03 <ais523> AnMaster: but you can get triangles with angle sum > 180
17:44:08 <ais523> in hyperbolic geometries
17:44:16 <ais523> err, no, spherical geometries
17:44:23 <ais523> hyperbolics have angle sum < 180
17:44:24 <Deewiant> In hyperbolic they're less than 180
17:44:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well it was meant to be a Lovecraft reference. Go figure.
17:44:43 <ais523> in fact, triangles on the surface of the Earth have angle sum > 180
17:45:00 <AnMaster> ehird, ok Lets say it this way then. There are roughly 300-400 lines handling the bounds shrinking. Almost 1/3 of them are macros.
17:45:02 <Deewiant> Proof that the Earth isn't flat!
17:45:03 <ais523> if you draw a triangle between London, Stockholm, and Washington DC, you'll find its angle sum is considerably more than 180, for isntance
17:45:23 <ehird> Deewiant: can you explain to him what i mean by wanting an abstract description instead of c dat types?
17:45:33 <AnMaster> ehird, answer is I can't give one.
17:45:36 <Deewiant> ehird: Nah, I'd rather you struggle
17:45:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: English-language explanation of what you do.
17:46:06 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no abstraction in it. I skip that due to speed reasons ;P
17:46:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Trivial abstraction: your hash table is an associative array
17:46:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, very well.. I tried that before and ehird just shouted.
17:46:42 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, well, cfunge uses associative array for funge space, except the static area around 0,0 as you know.
17:46:42 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, I have a similar thing for the bounds.
17:46:50 <ehird> "similar" isn't too helpful...
17:47:09 <AnMaster> yes but you got so angry and didn't say "sorry, overreacted" or anything like that.
17:47:18 <AnMaster> So why would I want to continue.
17:48:17 <AnMaster> (not claiming I'm perfect myself, but at least I try to not shout early on)
17:49:29 <AnMaster> consider two arrays, sparse or static or whatever, it isn't important at this point.
17:49:56 <AnMaster> the index for the first is the column (x coordinate) the index for the other is the row (y coordinate)
17:50:18 <AnMaster> lets cal the first one column_count and the other row_count
17:50:46 <AnMaster> so column_count[0] stores how many cells are non-space in the corresponding column
17:51:08 <AnMaster> that is the column for where x=0
17:51:22 <AnMaster> the row_count works similar but for rows.
17:52:04 <ehird> AnMaster: OK, so I can do
17:52:10 <AnMaster> ehird, on writes to funge-space that changes between space and non-space I update this count for the relevant row and column.
17:52:17 <ehird> Map Int Int -- map of column number to number of non-spaces
17:52:19 <ehird> Map Int Int -- map of row number to number of non-spaces
17:52:26 <ehird> which I can then fold in as Map (Int,ColumnOrRow) Int
17:52:33 <ehird> AnMaster: now, how does this handle wrapping?
17:52:36 <AnMaster> ehird, normally I just grow the bounds, that is check if I'm writing outside the bounds and grow it to that.
17:52:38 <ehird> how can you know when you're at the end?
17:52:46 <ehird> it doesn't store the last position
17:52:49 <ehird> just the count of non-spacse
17:53:01 <AnMaster> lets call this flag exact_bounds
17:53:29 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, I always want exact bounds FWIW
17:53:37 <ehird> so it's always true
17:53:38 <AnMaster> if true, the bounds are not too big, if false the bounds may be too big.
17:53:54 <AnMaster> and on y I check this, if false I recalculate the exact bounds
17:54:01 <AnMaster> based on the row and column counts.
17:54:03 <ehird> where do you store the bounds
17:54:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well in a static variable, as two x,y pairs.
17:54:18 <ehird> AnMaster: your counts are separate to the bounds?
17:54:24 <ehird> holy waste of memory batman!
17:54:37 <AnMaster> ehird, what, I have 8 bytes on a 32-bit funge for the bounds.
17:54:49 <ehird> it just seems like these could be folded into one.
17:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it is small compared to the counts.
17:55:05 <ehird> also I'm sure you don't need to recalculate like that
17:55:11 <ehird> I'm sure it could be a lot simpler
17:55:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that would require fast finding of the outermost values in the count arrays.
17:55:26 <AnMaster> which would basically mean storing some sorts of bounds on them....
17:55:35 <AnMaster> so you would end up with the same in the end ;P
17:55:48 <ehird> for each row, and each column, store:
17:55:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, max/min for x and y
17:56:01 <ehird> fast bounds updating, wrapping, and counting
17:56:05 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you mean store which exact cells are set.
17:56:11 <AnMaster> well that seems like a waste of memory.
17:56:20 <ehird> AnMaster: store separate bounds for each row and col
17:56:35 <ehird> so that you can wrap quickly, still have an exact count, and NOT have to recalculate all the time
17:56:38 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that works, cfunge did early on
17:57:15 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway when you need to shrink bounds, remember you may need to shrink more than one value. There could be several columns with only spaces like:
17:57:26 <ehird> bounds :: Map (Int,ColumnOrRow) Bounds
17:57:39 <ehird> Deewiant: does any other impl handle this?
17:57:52 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway now comes the shrinking algorithm if you care
17:58:02 <AnMaster> I have two ways. For "huge bounds" and "small bounds"
17:58:21 <ehird> AnMaster: it seems easy - if we place a space, calculate bounds for this row and this column
17:58:21 <AnMaster> for huge bounds, say 2^16 or something between max and min it is likely the data is rather sparse
17:58:31 <AnMaster> so I iterate over all values found in the array
17:58:43 <ehird> i'd rather not have two cases
17:58:54 <Deewiant> ehird: HsFunge, possibly pyfunge
17:59:19 <AnMaster> ehird, for small ones, I prefer to scan in a spiral basically from the old edges towards the center. Well I don't do it in a spiral, but rather take each edge at a time.
17:59:23 <ehird> lifthrasiir: does pyfunge handle exact bounds and shrinking and shit?
17:59:27 <AnMaster> to find the first one where any cell is set.
17:59:51 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
18:00:36 <AnMaster> ehird, lets say you have a dense and large program where one edge shrunk by 1-2 columns, then scanning the bounds by enumerating all values in the hash array would be a waste.
18:00:44 <AnMaster> that is the logic behind the two cases.
18:01:18 <AnMaster> ehird, now this is an abstract view. In reality this is complicated by having a static region of the bounds near 0,0 too. But the overall idea is as above.
18:02:05 <AnMaster> ehird, this hash library has a C++ style iterator thingy for C which comes in handy for the "large bounds shrinking model"
18:02:21 <AnMaster> for (p = ght_fspacecount_first(hashtable, &iterator, &p_key);
18:02:21 <AnMaster> p; p = ght_fspacecount_next(&iterator, &p_key)) {
18:02:24 <ehird> i wonder if pyfunge's algo is simpler :)
18:02:36 <Deewiant> ehird: I think HsFunge just did that slow-ass way of looping through potentially the whole funge-space to find the new minimum.
18:02:51 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:02:54 <ehird> what's pyfunge's license?
18:02:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well cfunge is tuned for speed remember. That means the code often goes for speed instead of simpleness/clarity.
18:03:47 <AnMaster> c 108 11453 4733 29.2% 2202 18388
18:03:56 <AnMaster> Language Files Code Comment Comment % Blank Total
18:04:21 <AnMaster> if I could just the code I wrote myself...
18:04:46 <AnMaster> c 98 8920 3679 29.2% 1642 14241
18:04:51 <ehird> Hypha currently has two lines of comments.
18:05:33 <ehird> Admittedly it's only 58 lines long
18:05:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well I'm rather fond of huge doxygen comments for public API. There are third party fingerprint developers for cfunge after all (ais523)
18:05:59 * ais523 should invent an INTERCAL auto-documentation system
18:06:00 <ehird> did I mention haskell is awesome
18:06:10 <ehird> AnMaster: haddock's is nicer :-)
18:06:10 <ais523> ehird: yes, but you're allowed to mention that, because it is
18:06:30 <AnMaster> ehird, Quite plausible. doxygen is a pain.
18:06:45 <ehird> doxygen's hard to read
18:06:48 <AnMaster> like it has issues with macros generating function prototypes
18:07:06 <ehird> haddocks have nice function signatures and type definitions and hyperlinks :-P
18:07:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I prefer macro hell over code duplication btw :)
18:07:28 <ehird> AnMaster: my opinion on Don't Repeat Yourself:
18:07:29 <ehird> go fs (Point x y) ('\n':zs) = go fs (Point 0 (y+1)) zs
18:07:29 <ehird> go fs (Point x y) ('\r':'\n':zs) = go fs (Point 0 (y+1)) zs
18:07:31 <ehird> go fs (Point x y) ('\r':zs) = go fs (Point 0 (y+1)) zs
18:07:42 <AnMaster> ehird, does ghc have a preprocessor though
18:08:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, you can enable CPP. A kitten dies though. But Haskell's referential transparency and laziness makes macros unneccessary most of the time
18:08:17 <ehird> Template Haskell is a full macro system but normally you can just use a value/function
18:08:24 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and cfunge has rather different loading functions for initial file loading at 0,0 and loading from i
18:08:31 <AnMaster> because I can take short-cuts for the former!
18:08:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Mine only does the former, but adding offset and write-onto support is as easy as changing
18:08:57 <ehird> parseFungespace = go emptyFungespace (Point 0 0)
18:09:14 <AnMaster> ehird, offset means additional calculations! :(
18:09:23 <AnMaster> you need to track the size of the block you wrote
18:09:38 <ehird> "i" the instruction
18:09:42 <ehird> well, that won't be hard
18:09:56 <AnMaster> ehird, YES! IT'S TERRIBLE! ¿²«€/=
18:10:03 <ehird> Deewiant: how long does ccbi take to parse mycology?
18:10:22 <Deewiant> ehird: That would be hardware-dependent, no?
18:10:32 <ehird> Deewiant: Well yes.
18:10:32 <AnMaster> ehird, don't say such bad, nay... foul, words as "few ms slower"
18:10:35 <ehird> Deewiant: What order of magnitude?
18:10:53 <ehird> 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000Ns?
18:10:57 <AnMaster> ehird, btw you can't assume initial lower bound will be at 0,0
18:10:58 <Deewiant> On my machine, CCBI 2 runs Mycology in 0.2s.
18:11:13 <AnMaster> ehird, there is nothing to parse in befunge
18:11:15 <ehird> but that's quicker than my parse :D
18:11:18 <ehird> AnMaster: = loading fungespace
18:11:31 <Deewiant> ehird: I was assuming it was, which is why I just quoted that figure, for comparison. :-P
18:11:56 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you mean space filling the static area with write combining moves, then mmap()ing the file to load and scan that.
18:11:58 <ehird> Deewiant: so you can't measure actual parsetime?
18:12:29 <Deewiant> ehird: I can, that'd just require me actually editing the code and recompiling and everything. :-P
18:12:41 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> On my machine, CCBI 2 runs Mycology in 0.2s. <-- what about cfunge.
18:12:45 <ehird> Deewiant: Horrific
18:12:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Planck time
18:13:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Release build of course.
18:13:29 <ais523> actually, cfunge prints Mycology's output before you start running it
18:13:34 <Deewiant> With output to dev/null: 0.03s.
18:14:02 <ehird> ais523: wouldn't running mycology in planck time require the electronics going a teensy bit faster than light?
18:14:03 <AnMaster> ais523, Damn that is the future version from 2038 where I implemented TRDS but made it work in reality by mistake!
18:14:08 <ehird> for large values of a teensy bit
18:14:12 <ais523> ehird: not if the electronics were small enough
18:14:28 <ehird> ais523: smaller than planck length?
18:14:28 <AnMaster> ais523, for same reasons as you shouldn't eat a quantum mechanic corpse in nethack. Except in time, not space.
18:14:36 <ais523> by definition, I think
18:14:44 <tombom> AnMaster: what are the advantages of the FUNGE_ATTR_NORET stuff in cfunge? apologies if this is a stupid question
18:14:46 <ais523> AnMaster: but I don't think I have intrinsic speed
18:14:54 <ais523> OTOH, I don't think I have intrinsic PR, so I'd better not
18:14:55 <ehird> tombom: gcc might optimize it.
18:15:10 <Deewiant> ehird: CCBI's Mycology loading time is 0.02-0.03s.
18:15:10 <ais523> unihorns are hard to come by in RL, I don't want to permanently lose a point of strength
18:15:19 <ehird> "the game....you all just lost it. Also, I would like to point out that you are now breathing manually."
18:15:20 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
18:15:27 * ehird breathes very carefully
18:15:45 <AnMaster> <tombom> AnMaster: what are the advantages of the FUNGE_ATTR_NORET stuff in cfunge? apologies if this is a stupid question <-- why did you read the source. Are you as mad as I am.
18:16:13 <ehird> "You are also blinking manually."
18:16:28 <ehird> I just hope I don't start beating my heart manuaββ
18:16:28 <ais523> marking something as noreturn can help the optimiser, but mostly is to suppress spurious warnings
18:16:35 <tombom> i just find it interesting and ok thanks
18:16:57 <ais523> and fewer false positive warnings -> true positive warnings are easier to spot
18:16:59 <AnMaster> tombom, you may want to look at the setup code in funge-space/funge-space.c
18:17:29 <AnMaster> (seriously that is the most horrible #ifdef maze I have seen)
18:17:35 <AnMaster> (well used to be, a bit better now)
18:18:05 <ais523> AnMaster: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8021661.stm
18:18:09 <ais523> you were wondering about Phorm
18:18:36 <AnMaster> tombom, or haven't you reached the inline asm bit yet?
18:18:45 <ais523> AnMaster: it would be very funny if you ported cfunge to gcc-bf
18:18:48 <ais523> but continued with the inline asm
18:18:57 <AnMaster> ais523, it would be even funnier if YOU did it :P
18:19:10 <ais523> all the BF commands translate to ABI
18:19:19 <ais523> because ABI always keeps track of where the pointer is
18:20:18 <AnMaster> tombom, anyway cfunge is correctness > speed and completeness > * > simplicity ;P
18:20:23 <ehird> http://www.lolworld.com/
18:20:23 <ehird> LOL (Life On Line) Internet Consultants
18:20:24 <ehird> We Help You Use the Internet to Expand YOUR World!
18:20:42 <Deewiant> Bah, simplicity is for the simple-minded.
18:20:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes. You need to check that file too then.
18:21:09 <AnMaster> or maybe that wasn't a good thing.
18:21:39 <Deewiant> I'm amused by how correctness > * but you still have EXACT_BOUNDS as a compile-time option. :-P
18:21:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, It is on by default.
18:22:11 <Deewiant> How can correctness be optional?
18:22:22 <ehird> 'Nazi' cattle being bred in UK
18:22:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of this.
18:22:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in ick that is on by default.
18:22:52 <ehird> Deewiant: so is your interpretation correct
18:22:55 <Deewiant> Yes, but that's INTERCAL, where correctness is indeed optional. :-P
18:23:11 <Deewiant> ehird: "1 vector containing the least point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the origin (env) "
18:23:22 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't see how that can't be understood.
18:23:23 <ehird> AnMaster: rebuttal?
18:23:37 <AnMaster> I mean when the difference is a whopping 0,010 seconds on this system... between exact bounds and non-exact...
18:23:56 <Deewiant> ehird: Although that's another of those "don't take it literally" cases.
18:24:03 <Deewiant> Which I guess is why it can't be understood.
18:24:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I believe in the freedom of choice ;P
18:24:16 <ehird> AnMaster: you said you disagree with Deewiant's interpretation
18:24:24 <Deewiant> ehird: Since if (0,0) is a space and (1,0) and (0,1) aren't, you have to push (0,0) even though it's a space.
18:24:41 <AnMaster> ehird, because it results in a slower implementation ;)
18:24:49 <ehird> AnMaster: so you were just lying
18:25:03 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I did think he was wrong once but he managed to convince me.
18:25:10 <ehird> 18:22 AnMaster: Deewiant, because I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of this.
18:25:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm still not 100% sure.
18:26:17 <AnMaster> funge-98 spec is rather unclear and contradicting in many places.
18:26:33 <AnMaster> I just don't trust anything non-trivial in it to 100%
18:26:58 <ehird> it seems pretty clear to me
18:26:59 <AnMaster> the parts inherited from befunge-93 can mostly be trusted. Unless it is for IO where you need to be very careful.
18:28:57 <AnMaster> ais523, about inline asm, there is only one single reason I use it. And only in one single place.
18:29:10 <AnMaster> ais523, non-temporal store. You can't do it with plain C.
18:29:20 <AnMaster> otherwise I prefer to hope the compiler gets it right.
18:29:47 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't fetch cache lines first, useful when you are going to overwrite the entire cacheline anyway.
18:30:12 <ais523> ok, well gcc-bf doesn't have a cache
18:30:12 <AnMaster> but without needing to do kernel level stuff.
18:30:26 <ais523> you could write a considerably more efficient version of memcpy than the one I ship at the moment, though
18:30:30 <AnMaster> actually I found out today icc can do it with a #pragma.
18:30:36 <ais523> by messing with the mark at a low level
18:31:13 <AnMaster> ais523, I would assume gcc-bf wouldn't require any porting.
18:31:18 <AnMaster> it would just use the C-fallbacks.
18:31:25 <ais523> but it would be extremely slow
18:31:30 <AnMaster> ais523, if you implement POSIX..
18:31:30 <ais523> and that's very uncfungelike
18:31:45 <ais523> AnMaster: I implement bits of it
18:31:54 <ais523> eventually I'll hope to implement all the more useful bits that make sense
18:32:01 <ais523> but I'm aiming to just implement C89 first
18:32:06 <AnMaster> ais523, mmap(), socket()/accept()/listen()/bind()/..., ncurses?
18:32:30 <ehird> socket is impossible for pure bf
18:32:30 <AnMaster> ais523, ignoring SIG_PIPE too.
18:32:33 <ais523> mmap is rather trivial in gcc-bf
18:32:42 <ehird> tombom: gcc backend
18:33:11 <ais523> although it now feels more like a very buggy program than an unfinished program
18:33:30 <AnMaster> ais523, ignoring SIG_PIPE is needed for SOCK and for basic output (which must reflect on failed output according to spec)
18:34:03 <ais523> well, . doesn't fail, obviously
18:34:29 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I know it won't work in brainfuck...
18:34:45 <ehird> http://74abc3.bikeshed.com/ β it really accepts any colour!
18:35:21 <AnMaster> ais523, also last I looked at least 23.5 MB virtual address space was needed to even start cfunge. (ulimit -v), below 16 MB libc.so fails to load even.
18:35:24 <fizzie> But you need JavaScript enabled for the color to happen. :/
18:35:32 <AnMaster> of course you won't need that much in bf
18:35:40 <AnMaster> but still it is quite memory heavy.
18:35:43 <ehird> fizzie: so you do :-(
18:35:53 <ais523> well, gcc-bf has 26-bit pointers
18:36:12 <AnMaster> ais523, err how many MB does that add up to
18:36:53 <ais523> except you only get 16 MB stack, 16 MB heap + globals combined, 16 MB labels in code segment
18:37:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I need more than 16 MB heap + globals I think.
18:37:15 <ais523> (the actual code can be larger, but you can only have 16 million locations you can branch to/from
18:37:34 <ais523> and 16 MB that's addressible, but doesn't correspond to anything and so causes undefined behaviour
18:38:17 <AnMaster> ais523, However, memory doesn't grow as quickly. Initial level is high, but then (due to memory pools and several other reasons) it doesn't grow quickly
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18:38:29 <AnMaster> pyfunge needs over 40 MB in ulimit -v to start.
18:38:48 <AnMaster> mostly due to python loading so many *.so files
18:38:52 <ehird> Plof will need over 2GB in ulimit -v to start, on a 32-bit system.
18:39:02 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't make sense.,
18:39:11 <ehird> AnMaster: mmap overcommitting to make a memory pool
18:39:22 <ehird> actual memory usage is minima
18:39:26 <ehird> measured in the KBs
18:39:29 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry no can do. System will refuse it if it is more than physical ram.
18:39:38 <ehird> AnMaster: You're wrong
18:39:46 <ehird> It mmap's 6GB on my system
18:39:53 <AnMaster> anyway I have seen it refuse it.
18:39:54 <ehird> It really does work.
18:40:02 <ehird> You need MAP_NORESERVE
18:40:04 <ehird> and some other stuff
18:40:16 <AnMaster> ehird, MAP_NORESERVE would indeed help.
18:40:17 <ehird> (MAP_NORESERVE isn't documented but works on at least bsds and linux)
18:40:44 <ehird> not documented on bsd
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18:51:13 <AnMaster> ehird, just noticed that I can reduce loading time even more by MAP_POPULATE
18:51:28 <ehird> AnMaster: I wish to stab your eyes out. Please give an appropriate date/time.
18:51:30 <AnMaster> it makes mmap() pre-fault the pages, thus making sure they are all loaded.
18:51:46 <AnMaster> this reduced number of page faults needed
18:52:00 <ais523> AnMaster: mightn't pre-faulting slow it down if the number of pages you have exceeds a cache/
18:52:10 <ais523> because they'd have to be loaded, unloaded, and loaded again
18:52:53 <AnMaster> ais523, give me a program larger than 118K
18:53:02 <ais523> err, in what language/
18:53:05 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway pre-fault at least loads them to main memory from disk.
18:53:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Just copy it to itself at the end?
18:53:53 <ehird> AnMaster: your L2's so small, the nehalem has more!
18:53:56 <Deewiant> That sentence doesn't make much sense but I guess you got it
18:53:57 <ehird> β new geek joke very funny
18:54:03 <ehird> laughter inducing even
18:54:08 <ehird> the height of witty
18:54:10 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. I know. This is an old Sempron.
18:54:27 <ehird> AnMaster: I hope one day you can upgrade to a pentium 4.
18:54:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I used to have one. It was worse.
18:54:56 <ehird> just like yo momma
18:55:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I regret I told you about the algorithm now.
18:55:28 <AnMaster> I will never ever do that again.
18:55:35 <ehird> joking is incompatible with befunge
18:56:01 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, was it joking. Sounded more like "trying to make enimies"
18:56:13 <ehird> yo momma jokes cause permanent psychological damage, and war
18:56:45 <Deewiant> ehird: Your implementation done yet?
18:57:06 <ehird> Deewiant: It supports TRDS, MVRS, FNGR and has the ghost of mike riley trapped inside.
18:57:39 <Deewiant> Have you run it through mycotrds, then?
18:57:58 <ehird> Deewiant: What I'm trying to say is "no"
18:58:06 <ehird> lifthrasiir: you there?
18:59:53 <ehird> "The smallest entrant was Quod Libet, but version 2 of that seems to have a UI designed by MC Escher" I like quod libet's ui :(
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19:03:46 <ehird> Deewiant: The only thing that needs to know "nummer of non-space cells" is y, right?
19:04:15 <AnMaster> it doesn't. It only needs to know bounds.
19:04:19 <Deewiant> y needs the bounding rectangle of space and nothing more, "nummer of non-space cells" is an impl detail.
19:04:32 <Deewiant> Er, scratch "nothing more", it needs a lot more, but anyway.
19:04:56 <ehird> nummer is like an unabstracted number
19:05:25 <AnMaster> ehird, we misread (and mis-copied) it as "number"
19:05:36 <ehird> no, Deewiant didn't misread
19:05:41 <ehird> and it meant number
19:05:54 <AnMaster> well misread it so we read it right
19:06:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> "The smallest entrant was Quod Libet, but version 2 of that seems to have a UI designed by MC Escher" I like quod libet's ui :( <-- source of quote
19:06:57 <ehird> AnMaster: thing about replacing rhythmbox with banshee in ubuntu saves 6MB
19:07:02 <ehird> despite banshee being more featureful and using Mono
19:07:45 <AnMaster> for media library I use the file system ;P
19:08:43 <ehird> AnMaster: so does Banshee et al
19:09:03 <ehird> they just provide a list that has the tags, tag editor, shuffle mode, etc.
19:09:17 <ehird> you know? less work? letting computers do work?
19:09:43 <AnMaster> ~/musik/(composer|performer|whatever is most useful in this case)/(collection|cd|freestanding|whatever is most useful)/files
19:10:22 <tombom> it's still usually more effort to navigate than a media library though
19:10:31 <AnMaster> where files is stuff like 01_Sinfonia_Ciss_Moll_Andante_di_molto.flac
19:10:57 <tombom> eh well i usually find it that way
19:11:06 <ehird> tombom: AnMaster doesn't seem to have a perception of needless work
19:11:10 <AnMaster> tombom, how is ~/musik/kraus/Synphonies_vol3/01_Sinfonia_Ciss_Moll_Andante_di_molto.flac hard
19:11:30 <tombom> it's just the navigating to it takes time
19:11:32 <AnMaster> since I use the shell to start the media player anyway
19:11:40 <tombom> yeah then it does take a lot longer
19:12:04 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't argue about the speed of two things if you deliberately misuse one of them!
19:12:16 <AnMaster> tombom: mplayer ~/mu<tab>/kra<tab>/S<tab>3/01<tab>
19:12:41 <ehird> AnMaster: shuffling the library? audioscrobbler?
19:12:48 <AnMaster> ehird, why would I want to shuffle
19:12:51 <ehird> anything other than playing one single goddamn track?
19:13:02 <ehird> AnMaster: the misuse is that your'e not meant to start banshee from the command line on one track
19:13:10 <ehird> and maybe you don't
19:13:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I prefer to listen to the symphonies in the right order.
19:13:28 <ehird> ...and we all know AnMaster's needs are enough for anyone
19:13:29 <AnMaster> ehird, and. How long would it take in banshee
19:13:35 <ehird> therefore, media libraries are bad QED
19:13:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Go to menu. Tick shuffle.
19:13:52 <AnMaster> ehird, what if I don't want shuffle
19:14:01 <AnMaster> what if I just want to listen to this synphonie
19:14:01 <ehird> *Don't go to menu.
19:14:03 <ehird> Do not tick shuffle.
19:14:07 <tombom> i don't mind people being a bit unusual with their workflow or w/e as long as they don't force it on others
19:14:15 <tombom> which is unfortunately not uncommon
19:14:16 <ehird> AnMaster: Click search field. Enter arbitrary substring. Press play.
19:14:23 <AnMaster> tombom, I don't force anyone. It is ehird who does.
19:14:24 <tombom> especially in some os stuff
19:14:34 <ehird> I don't force anything on you
19:14:45 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to be advocating that it is faster.
19:14:54 <AnMaster> I wasn't comparing starting from command line
19:15:10 <AnMaster> ehird, no. You need to move your hand to the mouse
19:15:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Alternatively, press shortcut bound to play.
19:15:44 <AnMaster> ok that works. Such as enter I hope
19:15:47 <ehird> Alternatively, attack the mouse when your opinion is not supported by studies!
19:16:12 <AnMaster> anyway I'm just saying I prefer my way.
19:16:18 <AnMaster> it is fast for finding what I want.
19:16:29 <AnMaster> since I always know what I'm looking for.
19:16:40 <AnMaster> tombom, you wouldn't call this "unusual" right?
19:17:14 <tombom> it doesn't really affect me so i guess i don't really care that much
19:17:29 <AnMaster> tombom, would you not want to use it yourself?
19:18:11 <AnMaster> free text search in friendly GUI is for newbies ;P
19:18:51 <AnMaster> idea: All newly written pieces of music must have names that allow keeping your fingers on the home row
19:19:01 <ehird> It amuses me that your opinion coincides almost exactly with zzo38's; except the fact that zzo38 states it plainly reveals how ridiculous it is
19:20:12 <tombom> except (the fact that zzo38 states it) (plainly reveals how ridiculous it is)
19:21:07 <AnMaster> So why does the fact that zzo38 is saying it makes it inherently ridiculous
19:21:33 <ehird> that's not what I said.
19:22:04 <ehird> (the way that zzo38 says it) (plainly reveals how ridiculous it is)
19:22:26 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, so what do you mean with it then
19:22:39 <AnMaster> ehird, then I repeat:<AnMaster> So why does the fact that zzo38 is saying it makes it inherently ridiculous
19:23:04 <ehird> That's not. what. I. said.
19:23:25 <AnMaster> ehird, ok... lets try another way... How does zzo38 state it.
19:23:43 <ehird> Too lazy; didn't google.
19:24:31 <ehird> Darn, my parseFungespace stack overflows
19:25:17 <AnMaster> ehird, hm stack overflow == crash right?
19:25:32 <ehird> No, stack overflow is-a exception.
19:25:37 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> mycop `seq` ()
19:25:37 <ehird> *** Exception: stack overflow
19:25:43 <ehird> It does in a normal program.
19:25:46 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't the exception a side effect
19:25:54 <AnMaster> shouldn't you use an ExceptionMonad!
19:25:58 <ehird> It's of type _|_ aka bottom.
19:26:13 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be funnier if needed an monad
19:26:26 <ehird> All types are (Type | _|_) because infinite loop = error = bottom.
19:26:29 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it wouldn't.
19:26:35 <ehird> That's about as funny as "ha ha, perl is line noise".
19:27:51 <ehird> OK, let's se. parseFungespace's "go" is totally tail recursive.
19:27:57 <ehird> The only other thign it calls is updateFungespace.
19:28:03 <ehird> Which calls lookupBoundus and maybeGrowBounds twice.
19:28:10 <ehird> maybeGrowBounds :: Bounds -> Int -> ColumnOrRow -> Int -> Fungespace -> Fungespace
19:28:10 <ehird> maybeGrowBounds b i cr v fs =
19:28:14 <ehird> then fs { bounds = Map.insert (i,cr) b{ end = v } (bounds fs) }
19:28:18 <ehird> No stack to overflow there.
19:28:20 <ehird> lookupBounds :: Int -> ColumnOrRow -> Fungespace -> Bounds
19:28:22 <ehird> lookupBounds i cr fs = Map.findWithDefault zeroBounds (i,cr) (bounds fs)
19:28:24 <ehird> Perfectly innocent.
19:28:30 <ehird> In conclusion, double tee eff mate.
19:30:47 <AnMaster> ehird, TTE<some unicode char I don't want to know of>
19:31:00 <AnMaster> "<ehird> In conclusion, double tee eff mate."
19:31:24 <AnMaster> which must be some porn unicode
19:31:25 <ehird> The "you" in doubleyou is silent.
19:31:32 <ehird> If you say it fast enough.
19:31:41 <ehird> The transition to "tee" sneaks a "you" in.
19:31:47 <ehird> Just like how "lil" adds the consonants in, somehow.
19:34:23 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> parseFungespace ""
19:34:23 <ehird> Loading package syb ... linking ... done.
19:34:25 <ehird> Loading package array-0.2.0.0 ... linking ... done.
19:34:27 <ehird> Loading package containers-0.2.0.1 ... linking ... done.
19:34:29 <ehird> Fungespace {space = fromList [], bounds = fromList []}
19:34:31 <ehird> Well, I'm not insane yet
19:34:35 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> parseFungespace "a"
19:34:35 <ehird> Fungespace {space = fromList [(Point {x = 0, y = 0},97)], bounds = fromList []}
19:34:45 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> parseFungespace "aa"
19:34:45 <ehird> Fungespace {space = fromList [(Point {x = 0, y = 0},97),(Point {x = 1, y = 0},97)], bounds = fromList [((0,Column),Bounds {start = 0, end = 1})]}
19:34:49 <ehird> Perfectly cromulent
19:34:56 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> parseFungespace "aa\na"
19:34:57 <ehird> Fungespace {space = fromList [(Point {x = 0, y = 0},97),(Point {x = 0, y = 1},97),(Point {x = 1, y = 0},97)], bounds = fromList [((0,Column),Bounds {start = 0, end = 1})]}
19:35:02 <ehird> So it's an issue iwth large inputs.
19:35:08 <ehird> There should be two bounds there.
19:36:59 <AnMaster> ehird, if you used C it would have been easier to figure out how. Sure the result once you figure it out will be more elegant in Haskell, I agree with that.
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19:37:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Thanks for that baseless, incorrect assertion without evidence.
19:37:27 <ehird> I will switch to C immediately; for it lets me bash code without thinking until it works.
19:37:29 <AnMaster> ehird, lament wasn't around, so someone had to do it.
19:37:35 <ehird> With printf debugging. You know, just like Debug.Trace in Haskell.
19:37:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I tend to use gdb though
19:37:57 <ehird> ghci has a debugger
19:38:00 <ehird> I just don't use it
19:38:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I use debuggers in all languages that have them, rather than printf debugging
19:38:26 <AnMaster> C more so, but also for erlang
19:38:35 <AnMaster> in C you need it for segfaults and such at least.
19:38:36 <ehird> In Haskell, understanding your code is given large weight.
19:38:56 <ehird> I generally find printf debugging faster than using a debugger
19:39:03 <AnMaster> ehird, Agreed. You need to understand it when you write it
19:39:11 <AnMaster> understanding it the day after isn't very important!
19:39:26 <ehird> Well, the only things I've added are lookupBounds and maybeGrowBounds and their two calls each.
19:39:39 <ehird> And it's overflowing on lagre input, as well as giving incorrect results, but they don't recurse.
19:39:49 <ehird> MY BRAIN IS A FLATTENED PANCAKE OF CONFUSION.
19:39:55 <AnMaster> ehird, but C tends to have pretty good tools. Such as nice GUIs for interpreting profiling data and so on.
19:40:20 <AnMaster> ehird, can you see what was put on the stack
19:40:35 <ehird> Probably with the debugger
19:40:43 <ehird> I wonder if the Map functions non-tail recurse
19:40:49 <ehird> That would be very naughty of them
19:41:04 <AnMaster> ehird, not only naughty, but extremely silly.
19:42:02 <AnMaster> ehird, "<MyCatVerbs> ehird: I would guess that they're fairly lazy, so you end up with enormous thunks." wth did that mean
19:42:12 <ehird> 19:41 ehird: Do the Data.Map functions non-tail-recurse? I'm getting stack overflows with a gigantic map.
19:42:13 <ehird> 19:41 MyCatVerbs: ehird: I would guess that they're fairly lazy, so you end up with enormous thunks.
19:42:20 <ehird> AnMaster: it made sense to me :)
19:42:46 <AnMaster> not the details, just what a thunk is
19:42:56 <ehird> AnMaster: A thunk is a function that evaluates the lazy code.
19:43:04 <ehird> So (2+2) is a thunk that calculates 2+2 then replaces it with that value
19:43:08 <ehird> Where 2, 2, and (+) are also thunks
19:43:12 <Deewiant> ehird: Data.Map and Data.IntMap are very lazy. list-tries provides strict ops for everything but of course it's only for list keys ;-P
19:43:14 <ehird> In the 2 case just trivial ones returning, well, 2.
19:43:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um can't you use a tuple of x and y as the key then
19:43:52 <ehird> A list is a linked list
19:44:06 <ehird> (x:(y:[])) would allow things like [1,2,3] to get past type checking and also be wasteful
19:44:14 <Deewiant> Putting keys of a constant size into a trie isn't exactly useful anyway
19:44:46 <ehird> what, an assoc list?
19:44:52 <Deewiant> That is C syntax for declaring an integer and initializing it to 1
19:45:01 <ehird> WELCOME TO ERLANG NEXT STOP (3 years pass) VALUE
19:45:08 <ehird> AnMaster: that's an alist
19:45:18 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, so use a dict or ets table
19:45:27 <AnMaster> dict is implemented in terms of list
19:45:28 <ehird> Deewiant: let x = x
19:45:31 <ehird> That is Haskell synta
19:45:49 <ehird> That is Brainfuck syntax
19:46:12 <ehird> That is Whitespace syntax
19:46:35 <ehird> ADD ONE TO COBOL GIVING COBOL
19:46:37 <ehird> That is Cobol syntax.
19:46:56 <ehird> 601 FORMAT (4H A= ,I5,5H B= ,I5,5H C= ,I5,8H AREA= ,F10.2,
19:46:56 <ehird> + 13H SQUARE UNITS)
19:46:59 <ehird> That is Fortran syntax.
19:47:29 <Deewiant> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
19:47:31 <ehird> public static void main(args[]) {
19:47:33 <ehird> That is Java syntax.
19:48:01 <ehird> Deewiant: Nor does ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) on its own.
19:48:05 <ehird> AnMaster: You started it.
19:48:11 <Deewiant> ehird: That was more of a joke. :-P
19:48:15 <ehird> 19:44 AnMaster: Deewiant: [{x,y},value]
19:48:15 <ehird> 19:44 AnMaster: that is erlang syntax
19:48:18 <ehird> Yes you did AnMaster.
19:48:28 <ehird> 19:48 AnMaster: I went away before you did
19:48:30 <ehird> That is AnMaster syntax.
19:49:00 <AnMaster> ehird, or you could use a list I guess.
19:49:07 <AnMaster> and just search through it as needed ;P
19:49:10 <ehird> That is list syntax
19:49:43 <Deewiant> reβ
curβ
sion /rΙͺΛkΙrΚΙn/ noun. See recursion.
19:50:12 <ehird> That is Slereah syntax.
19:50:37 <AnMaster> you should show the equivalent code in the language
19:51:18 <ehird> That is faux-Chinese syntax.
19:51:21 <ehird> Or Korean or whatever.
19:51:48 -!- WangZeDong has changed nick to Slereah.
19:52:10 <ehird> PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is IRC syntax.
19:52:12 <ehird> That is IRC syntax.
19:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway why can't haskell detect when it is getting too lazy and busy-collect it
19:52:25 <AnMaster> that is evaluate the lazy bits
19:52:34 <AnMaster> when it detects it is getting close to the limit
19:52:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That breaks semantics.
19:52:41 <ehird> "- that is quine syntax, preceded by its own quotation" - that is quine syntax, preceded by its own quotation
19:52:42 <ehird> "- that is quine syntax, preceded by its own quotation" - that is quine syntax, preceded by its own quotation
19:52:44 <Deewiant> You can't just arbitrary evaluate stuff.
19:52:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Does it affect anything as long as it is purely functional.
19:52:59 <ehird> Infinite lists, for instance.
19:53:04 <ehird> HUR I'LL JUST GO EVALUATE THIS
19:53:06 <AnMaster> well you could avoid that case,
19:53:09 <ehird> HUM DE DUM THIS SURE IS TAKING A WHILE
19:53:14 <AnMaster> can you detect it is infinite?
19:53:35 <AnMaster> ehird, so how are you going to work around the issue.
19:53:57 <ehird> Figure out how to do more forcing on the map.
19:54:01 <ehird> Or use a different structure.
19:54:43 <AnMaster> ehird, Any other language with this specific oddity
19:54:49 <ehird> Any lazy language.
19:55:14 <Deewiant> D, if you mark everything as lazy.
19:55:17 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc I heard about "eager haskell"
19:56:09 <ehird> No. It has laziness
19:56:27 <AnMaster> ehird, meh, you know it was a simple typo
19:59:11 <Deewiant> _=-_-- looks a bit lazery I guess
19:59:57 <ehird> So it decrements _, then takes the negative and assigns it to _
20:00:21 <Deewiant> ehird: No sequence point, so undefined like in C, I think.
20:01:48 <Deewiant> Shouldn't you be programming your fancy impl to rule them all?
20:03:22 <ehird> Decided I wasn't evil enough to do that to everyone
20:03:52 <Deewiant> Gave up because Data.Map overflowed your stack? :-P
20:04:25 <ehird> Deewiant: Wait, you mean befunge?
20:04:34 <ehird> I am meditating on a solution to the data.map issue.
20:04:47 <ehird> including "increase the stack size"
20:05:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be the Mike Riley solution
20:05:54 <ehird> Deewiant: findWithDefault and insert
20:06:06 <ehird> What does that do.
20:06:24 <ehird> Hypha/Fungespace.hs:57:25: Not in scope: `Map.insert''
20:06:27 <ehird> Deewiant: Why must you lie.
20:06:27 <AnMaster> ehird, on initial insert you can know it won't be overwrite any existing cell btw.
20:06:54 <Deewiant> ehird: Correction: use insertWith' const.
20:07:11 <ehird> fuckingStrictInsert = Map.insertWith' const
20:08:21 <ehird> Deewiant: Awesome, having that as a top level definition makes it monomorphic by default
20:08:31 <Deewiant> ehird: Monomorphism restriction.
20:08:40 <ehird> It's so awesome that it sucks cocks.
20:08:48 <ehird> That's just how awesome and empowered in its sexuality it is.
20:08:50 <Deewiant> Be -Wall clean and it'll rarely bite you.
20:09:03 <ehird> Hypha/Fungespace.hs:64:26:
20:09:03 <ehird> Warning: This binding for `x' shadows the existing binding
20:09:05 <ehird> defined at Hypha/Fungespace.hs:19:8
20:09:07 <ehird> In the definition of `updateFungespace'
20:09:09 <ehird> Hypha/Fungespace.hs:64:28:
20:09:11 <ehird> Warning: This binding for `y' shadows the existing binding
20:09:13 <ehird> defined at Hypha/Fungespace.hs:20:8
20:09:15 <ehird> In the definition of `updateFungespace'
20:09:17 <ehird> Repeat ad infinitum.
20:09:19 <ehird> I should probably rename the accessors.
20:09:43 <ehird> Ok, modules loaded: Hypha.Fungespace.
20:09:43 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace>
20:10:18 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> mycop `seq` ()
20:10:18 <ehird> *** Exception: stack overflow
20:10:56 <Deewiant> Could be your fault, then, and not Map's. :-P
20:11:06 <ehird> Feel free to debug my code :)
20:11:38 <ehird> I have no argument.
20:11:43 <ehird> space :: Map Point Int,
20:11:43 <ehird> bounds :: Map (Int,ColumnOrRow) Bounds
20:11:50 <ehird> Deewiant: Maybe being exclamatory there would help?
20:12:24 <ehird> Hypha/Fungespace.hs:32:4:
20:12:24 <ehird> Unexpected strictness annotation: !Map
20:12:26 <ehird> In the definition of data constructor `Fungespace'
20:12:28 <ehird> In the data type declaration for `Fungespace'
20:12:30 <ehird> Failed, modules loaded: none.
20:12:35 <ehird> I guess you can't be strict with "data"s
20:12:46 <Deewiant> Silly, you can't strictify a type constructor.
20:13:14 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> mycop `seq` () *** Exception: stack overflow
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20:16:05 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> In the definition of `updateFungespace'" <-- camelcase!?
20:16:16 <ehird> That is Haskell's convention.
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20:16:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I always thought you were an underscore person
20:16:49 <lament> he's an underscore person undercover
20:17:06 <AnMaster> lament, hey! You go troll haskell for a bit ok?
20:17:09 <ehird> In Haskell, camelCase. In Lisp/Factor, hyphen-ated. In Python/Ruby/whathaveyou, under_score. In C, unixstyle.
20:17:32 <AnMaster> lament, ehird is coding a befunge interpreter in haskell.
20:17:38 <Deewiant> hyphen-ated FTW, too bad so few languages can do it
20:17:53 <ehird> messes-with - in-fix, un-fortunately.
20:18:19 <Deewiant> ehird: Just force - to be surrounded by whitespace, shrug.
20:18:27 <ehird> Deewiant: Still hard to read. Dylan did it tho
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20:27:15 <ehird> Ruby does that too.
20:28:01 <AnMaster> ehird, does ruby use tail recursion for loops
20:28:09 <AnMaster> or does it have while/for or similar
20:28:21 <Deewiant> Ruby is an OO scripting language.
20:28:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant You can have functional OO
20:28:57 <ehird> It uses object methods + blocks
20:29:02 <ehird> array.each {|x| puts x}
20:29:07 <ehird> array.map {|x| x+2}
20:29:10 <ehird> You can do a loop, mostly while
20:29:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so how do you do a mainloop
20:29:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If it were functional I'd've said that it's functional.
20:29:21 <ehird> But mostly you should either
20:30:06 <AnMaster> Hm Do anyone think there will be a R7RS or not.
20:30:45 <Deewiant> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/browse_thread/thread/6f354002fb7f128e/0f4b2fe269bc5cae
20:31:17 <ehird> AnMaster: No. Scheme will never ever ever be updated again.
20:31:39 <ehird> AnMaster: It's true, actually.
20:31:45 <ehird> R6RS is not very much of a Scheme.
20:31:52 <ehird> So the latest Scheme standard is R5RS.
20:32:01 <ehird> A followup to which is not planned.
20:32:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so you need to base r7rs on r5rs + the good bits of r6rs
20:32:28 <AnMaster> ehird, surely it can't be *all* bad
20:32:35 <ehird> The bits that aren't bad are in R5RS.
20:35:07 <ehird> Deewiant: It takes all the orthogonal, minimalist, pure goodness of R5RS and piles a bunch of not-that-well-thought-out practical libraries on top, into the core language.
20:35:09 <AnMaster> I suspect ehird is exaggerating.
20:35:21 <ehird> http://www.r6rs.org/ratification/results.html
20:35:33 <ehird> The negative ones -- including just about every scheme implementer who voted --
20:35:44 <ehird> are by far the majority of the ones with arguments.
20:35:50 <ehird> And they are good ones.
20:35:56 <ehird> It didn' teven pass by a large amount
20:36:02 <ehird> "67 electors voted to ratify draft 5.97 as R6RS. 35 electors were opposed to ratification. Thus 65.7% of those who voted, voted in favor of ratification. This is more than the 60% required for ratification."
20:36:03 <ehird> That is a new margin
20:36:10 <ehird> In previous votes the requirement was a lot higher
20:36:19 <ehird> 60% of the entire set of people who COULD vote, I believe
20:37:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so why did so many abstain
20:37:22 <AnMaster> clearly it is on them we should blame it.
20:37:24 <ehird> Loss of faith in the process?
20:37:41 <ehird> http://scheme-punks.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page FTW.
20:37:48 <AnMaster> ehird, what technical aspects make you think so
20:38:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I have already mentioned, and also pointed to a list of very good arguments.
20:38:19 <ehird> 20:35 ehird: Deewiant: It takes all the orthogonal, minimalist, pure goodness of R5RS and piles a bunch of not-that-well-thought-out practical libraries on top, into the core language.
20:38:20 <ehird> 20:35 ehird: A _lot_ of them.
20:38:22 <ehird> 20:35 ehird: http://www.r6rs.org/ratification/results.html
20:38:24 <ehird> 20:35 ehird: The negative ones -- including just about every scheme implementer who voted --
20:38:26 <ehird> 20:35 ehird: are by far the majority of the ones with arguments.
20:38:28 <ehird> 20:35 ehird: And they are good ones.
20:38:30 <ehird> In case you didn't see
20:39:21 <ehird> So it looks like the overwhelming majority support it from a cursory glance?
20:39:35 <ehird> As opposed to not an all that large margin, and with very little arguments compared to the "no" side's many
20:40:20 <AnMaster> ehird, having a good standard library would be good though
20:40:31 <ehird> AnMaster: That's good -- it has one.
20:40:37 <ehird> http://srfi.schemers.org/
20:40:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I needed a random number in one r5rs program and couldn't find any prng!
20:41:01 <AnMaster> that is the stuff I'm talking about
20:41:05 <ehird> http://srfi.schemers.org/final-srfis.html About 98 of them (a bit less since some are worse versions of later ones, and some are R6RS only)
20:41:14 <ehird> AnMaster: I propose you are blind or an idiot:
20:41:15 <ehird> SRFI 27: Sources of Random Bits
20:41:16 <ehird> Draft: 2002/02/12-2002/04/12
20:41:26 <ehird> http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-27/srfi-27.html
20:41:38 <AnMaster> ehird, yes sure, but does any r5rs implementation support it.
20:41:51 <ehird> http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-implementers.html
20:42:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Point of scheme
20:42:05 <ehird> Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooosh
20:42:24 <AnMaster> ehird, chicken doesn't support 27
20:42:48 <AnMaster> nor does guile, and many others
20:43:07 <ehird> that's their problem; a flaw in their implementation. Also guile is not R5RS.
20:43:24 <Deewiant> cfunge doesn't support TRDS either
20:43:24 <ehird> Guile omits an important aspect or two of R5RS; calling it a Scheme is dishonest
20:43:34 <Deewiant> Calling it a Funge is dishonest
20:43:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true. But random() is a bit more common
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20:43:52 <ehird> Guile omits aspects of THE ACTUAL SCHEME STANDARD
20:43:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are arguing against ehird here
20:43:56 <ehird> It is NOT r5rs-compliant.
20:43:59 <Deewiant> I time travel more than do randomness
20:44:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I'm not arguing, I'm kidding.
20:44:28 <lament> r5rs is not the actual scheme standard
20:44:28 <AnMaster> I'm not saying a implementation missing it is not a scheme
20:44:40 <ehird> No, a chicken with a pulley in the middle is
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20:45:17 <lament> ehird: actual means current.
20:45:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but what I'm saying is that a language lacking such is fine as an esolang, but impractical otherwise.
20:45:31 <ehird> lament: the scheme community at large disagrees with you.
20:46:02 <lament> ehird: the scheme community is silly, but you're more silly.
20:46:23 <ehird> More of lament's wonderful discussion
20:46:40 <ehird> Argument by you're silly.
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20:46:46 <AnMaster> tempo 300 and some 1/32 notes... Insane...
20:46:48 <lament> i'm not arguing anything
20:46:52 <lament> i'm just saying you're silly
20:46:59 <lament> that's not ad hominem, that's just an insult
20:47:11 <lament> or rather a statement of fact
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21:42:12 * kerlo performs calculations
21:44:04 <kerlo> That was a temporally precise statement.
21:44:17 <kerlo> Its object was also precise.
21:48:14 <Slereah> Well, you know 1+1 apparently
21:48:31 <Slereah> And the s of any known number is also known
21:48:51 <kerlo> Subtract 2 from 0, store result in N, branch to next statement if negative. Subtract N from 1, store result in ANS, branch to next statement if negative.
21:48:54 <kerlo> The answer is ANS.
21:49:52 <kerlo> Ow, that one's difficult.
21:50:05 <Slereah> AnMaster : I did a program to do that automatically, remember?
21:50:13 <Slereah> It was my first program here
21:50:13 <kerlo> Can I have different representations of 6 and 7?
21:50:36 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Mult2.py
21:51:15 <kerlo> AnMaster: well, it'd be nice if you could separate one of the numbers into individual bits.
21:52:09 <kerlo> I guess binary will do that.
21:52:13 <AnMaster> kerlo, what about doing what Slereah did... Take any numbers in the form x * y
21:52:26 <Slereah> Here it is : http://pastebin.com/m550eb7f6
21:52:34 <kerlo> I don't know if I can do that.
21:53:08 <AnMaster> kerlo, if the language is TC you can!
21:53:24 <kerlo> Languages, schmanguages. I'm not TC.
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21:54:42 <AnMaster> substract life from 0, store result in N, branch to next statement if negative.
21:54:58 <AnMaster> substract N from universe, store result in N2, branch to next statement if negative.
21:55:15 <AnMaster> substract N2 from everything, store result in ANS, branch to next statement if negative.
21:55:31 <kerlo> s/N from universe/universe from N/?
21:56:22 <Slereah> Don't touch the universe, kerlo
21:58:24 <Slereah> Oh yes, touch my universe.
21:58:51 <kerlo> I can't help that, either. I'm constantly in contact with everyone's universe.
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23:35:17 * ehird names Pandemic II virus Confickre
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23:46:34 <ehird> Pandemic II; it's a flash game where you control a disease and buy things like transmission via rodents, resistance, symptoms etc, and you have to kill the whole human population.
23:46:46 <ehird> Also they shut down their air/ship ports etc, especially Madagascar.
23:46:52 <ehird> AnMaster: It's fun.
23:47:01 <Slereah> SIR, A MAN IS SNEEZING IN BRAZIL!
23:47:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Madagascar just has one port, a ship one, and it shuts down if someone coughs anywhere in the world, pretty much
23:47:42 <AnMaster> ehird, so hard to spread to it I guess.
23:47:55 <ehird> Let's just hope swine flu hasn't played it.
23:50:53 * ehird restarts until he starts in madagascar
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23:51:41 <nooga> marblecake also the game
23:51:51 <ehird> thank you, welcome to weeks ago
23:53:29 <Slereah> ehird : Nah, something new came up
23:53:37 <nooga> thank you, welcome to geeks row
23:53:40 <Slereah> The Times didn't just throw the votes away
23:53:40 <ehird> Welcome to days ago.
23:56:04 <nooga> this can't be, tell us
23:56:11 <AnMaster> Luckily this IRC line is large enough to fit it: Don't blow your nose with tight fitting headphones.
23:56:11 <ehird> DISEASE ARRIVES IN MADAGASCAR DISEASE ARRIVES IN MADAGASCAR
23:56:40 <AnMaster> ehird, my ears feel poped inwards :(
23:56:56 <GregorR> ehird: Damn that Madagascar!
23:56:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Hold your nose and breathe out
23:57:13 <AnMaster> ehird, no, moving the ears is more effective.
23:57:14 <GregorR> AnMaster: Hold your mouth and say the Lord's Prayer.
23:57:20 <ehird> Turn into a donkey
23:57:34 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you move your ears vertically?
23:57:51 <AnMaster> ehird, some people can. Google.
23:57:54 * ehird waits until he gets 60 evolution point
23:58:21 <AnMaster> I'm talking about maybe 1/4-1/2 cm
23:58:23 <GregorR> Don't they wobble to and fro?
23:58:32 <GregorR> Can't you tie them in a knot? Can't you tie them in a bow?
23:58:45 <AnMaster> GregorR, don't your eyebrows wobble to and fro?
23:59:21 * ehird waits for all of madagascar to get infected, then buys waterborne
23:59:33 <GregorR> Repeating English nursery rhymes amongst Europeans is pretty much pointless :P
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00:00:12 <ehird> You came in at exactly midnight.
00:00:40 <nooga> no, it's 1st o'clock
00:00:55 <AnMaster> ehird, are you seriously saying you can't wiggle your ears?
00:01:05 <ehird> Well, I can wiggle them if I smile/frown.
00:01:09 <GregorR> I can wiggle my ears back and forth, but not up and down.
00:01:19 <AnMaster> GregorR, I can't do back forth, only up/down
00:01:21 <GregorR> I can wiggle and lick my nose :P
00:01:41 <GregorR> And I can fold my tongue length-wise.
00:01:49 <AnMaster> GregorR, you mean back (ear -- ear) ?
00:02:04 * GregorR wonders what "ear -- ear" is supposed to mean.
00:02:09 <AnMaster> <GregorR> And I can fold my tongue length-wise. <-- can't do.
00:02:16 <GregorR> I've only met one other person who can :P
00:02:19 <AnMaster> <GregorR> I can wiggle and lick my nose :P <-- what? wiggle your nose?
00:02:26 <GregorR> Those are two separate talents :P
00:02:31 <GregorR> I can wiggle my nose, and I can also lick my nose.
00:02:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, as for lick nose. No. But I can reach far in the other direction.
00:02:58 <nooga> AND WHO'S THE BEST MUTANT HERE?!
00:03:52 <ehird> Oh Madagascar, you are so naive. Once I have you all Iw ill escape on a ship
00:04:05 <ehird> MARTIAL LAW EVERYWHERE
00:04:11 <ehird> BUT I'M INVISIBLE IN MADAGASCAR
00:04:32 <AnMaster> http://www.wikihow.com/Wiggle-Your-Ears
00:05:01 <ehird> VACCINE DEPLOYED!!
00:05:05 <ehird> I hate you, Pandemic II.
00:05:40 <nooga> thank God Poland is safe - no one comes to this shithole
00:06:17 <ehird> Oh well, I bought a load of symptoms and shit to try and kill the few people i have
00:07:31 <ehird> he knows, probably.
00:08:07 <nooga> i wonder what's the url
00:09:15 <AnMaster> and what was the url for the url
00:09:37 <ehird> meh, real url is http://www.crazymonkeygames.com/jkf6Tr/pandemic2.swf
00:09:40 <ehird> but, uh, you need flash.
00:10:21 <nooga> you need graphical terminal
00:10:22 <ehird> Because it's a flash game? :P
00:10:42 <nooga> hard to find one these days
00:25:29 <nooga> my virus is called ehird
00:25:50 <ehird> i hope you don't kill anyone
00:26:03 <ehird> im on the phone wit the president of madagascar
00:26:07 <ehird> he's shutting down everything
00:45:04 <AnMaster> I haven't tried it (of course, since it is flash)
00:45:30 <AnMaster> but from what you told me it mentioned it makes no sense from a biology point of view
00:45:37 <ehird> that's why it's a game
00:45:40 <ehird> and not a biology lesson
00:45:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why not realistic games.
00:46:05 <ehird> because a game about being an actual virus would be unbelievably difficult and not fun at all
00:46:17 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, but what about other ones
00:46:29 <ehird> AnMaster: if realism was fun, games wouldn't exist
00:46:37 <ehird> we'd be going out inventing our own viruses.
00:46:45 <ehird> AnMaster: did you know, supertux isn't realistic?
00:46:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. I'm saying there is place for both.
00:46:59 <ehird> penguins don't look like that, they don't jump on walking snowballs with eyes and those snowballs don't fall down
00:47:01 <ehird> also the world isn't 2d
00:47:12 <ehird> and blocks that make you big don't come out of things that you wack from below
00:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird, don't be daft. Why do you think you are still short.
00:47:57 <AnMaster> You thought it was all made up right?
00:47:58 <ehird> AnMaster: well in super mario bros it's a mushroom
00:48:07 <ehird> so what I get from that is, do mushrooms and possibly other drugs
00:52:23 <nooga> wonder if llvm would handle dynamic typing shit, the thing i'm trying to implement
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01:04:43 <nooga> isnt code generated by llvm slower than code generated by gcc?
01:05:01 <ehird> clang is more or less gcc competitive afaik
01:08:31 <nooga> beh, clang is even faster
01:11:11 <pikhq> But GCC doesn't need to reap my soul to be installed.
01:12:11 <AnMaster> ./configure --perfix=$HOME/local/llvm
01:12:18 * pikhq has a notable lack of aptitude
01:12:34 <pikhq> AnMaster, does it work on x86_64?
01:12:53 <pikhq> If not, it's more of a bitch than I'm willing to deal with. Otherwise, I'm just misinformed.
01:12:57 <AnMaster> ......... pikhq only if you have x86_64_magic_pixie
01:13:40 <ehird> it generates fucking machine code
01:13:55 <pikhq> No it's not. There's code generation involved, making x86_64 involve actual *work*.
01:13:55 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but docs. And it supported it for years
01:14:22 <pikhq> ... Years. x86_64 is a rather recent architecture.
01:14:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, not many years. But more than one certainly.
01:14:50 <pikhq> Linux has supported x86_64 for a few years, and it's supported x86_64 longer than it's been publicly available.
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01:15:41 <pikhq> Linux devs were handed free hardware and documentation.
01:15:56 <pikhq> So it could be supported by 2.6.0.
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01:27:56 <lifthrasiir> ehird: i was sleeping... sorry for too late answer. what was the question?
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02:02:54 <nooga> llvm src has been downloading for an hour
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03:03:29 <kerlo> Either explain why the latter half of this disjunction cannot be accomplished, or explain why the former half cannot be accomplished.
03:05:44 <kerlo> Heck, here's a simpler one:
03:05:54 <kerlo> There is a disproof of this statement.
03:09:27 <coppro> This statement is false.
03:11:10 <lifthrasiir> "this statement" is ambiguous, e.g. this statement is false: the pig can fly.
03:12:15 <Robdgreat> unto itself, however, "This statement is false." would appear to be self-referential.
03:18:12 <coppro> So is "There is a disproof of this statement."
03:19:17 <Sgeo> What's it like to know that your simple decision has killed hundrens, and might kill millions?
03:20:08 <kerlo> Sgeo: is this a hypothetical "you" or some "you" in particular?
03:20:48 <Sgeo> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30461857/
03:21:23 <Sgeo> Hernandez wanted to keep him home from school so he wouldn't get sick, but her husband said, "We can't be afraid of what might or might not happen."
03:22:32 <GregorR> I wasn't going to shoot an AK-47 into a crowd of civilians, but we can't be afraid of what might or might not happen.
03:25:11 <GregorR> "But Jose Luis Martinez, a 34-year-old resident of the town, made the swine flu connection the minute he heard a description of the symptoms on the news: fever, coughing, joint aches, severe headache and, in some cases, vomiting and diarrhea."
03:25:18 <GregorR> These are the symptoms of ALL FORMS OF INFLUENZA
03:26:00 <pikhq> I find it quite funny that people are afraid of eating pork because of this.
03:26:53 <GregorR> When the mad cow disease craziness was about, I didn't stop eating raw cow brains *shrugs*
03:26:56 <kerlo> I don't think "we can't be afraid of what might or might not happen" actually means anything.
03:27:15 <pikhq> Yes, because the flu is spread by consuming muscle tissue. Right...
03:27:23 <GregorR> kerlo: Well, in particular because "might" and "might not" are so generic that in fact all events might or might not happen :P
03:27:24 <pikhq> GregorR: Uh... Eating raw cow brains?
03:27:43 <kerlo> It's meaningless in that it's a patent falsehood.
03:27:44 <pikhq> That doesn't seem like a very good idea regardless.
03:27:55 <GregorR> pikhq: But they're soooooooooooo delicious.
03:28:09 <GregorR> pikhq: How's PRP comin'? X-P
03:28:23 <kerlo> What's the flavor of a raw cow brain?
03:28:34 <GregorR> It's raw cow brain flavored.
03:28:46 <GregorR> If I had to describe the flavor in three words, those words would be "raw cow brain".
03:28:59 <kerlo> How salty, how sweet, how bitter, how sour, how that-fifth-taste-someone-realized-existed?
03:29:11 <Sgeo> I will infect anyone who I see on Twitter claiming you get swine flu from eating pigs
03:29:14 <pikhq> And are you serious about eating raw cow brain?
03:29:31 <pikhq> And "someone" is "most of Asia".
03:30:12 <kerlo> Which "someone" is this?
03:30:27 <pikhq> The someone that realised the existence of umami.
03:31:26 <pikhq> Whereas we were too dumb to realise that meat is (generally) neither salty, sweet, bitter, nor sour. ;p
03:32:25 <kerlo> Hey. Scent particles are generally none of those, I believe.
03:32:43 <kerlo> GregorR: "it" being the fifth taste or cow brains?
03:33:07 <GregorR> Although cow brains are also a little bit sweet, and have a bitterish after taste sort of like liver.
03:33:10 <pikhq> And don't ask me why we don't use savory, English is weird as fuck.
03:33:26 <pikhq> And it'll probably end up being "savory" in another decade, anyways.
03:33:42 <GregorR> pikhq: Sooo ... "savory" = "umami", and yet we act like its existence was discovered recently?
03:33:54 <Sgeo> I wish people would stop saying things like "SARS scare"
03:33:59 <kerlo> Science is stubborn.
03:34:10 <pikhq> ... We in the west were just too dumb and stubborn to call it a flavor.
03:34:36 <GregorR> Especially since people often make the claim that in general "women prefer sweet and men prefer SAVORY"
03:34:43 <pikhq> (never mind that we've got glutamate receptors on our tongue, it can't be a freaking flavor)
03:34:58 <kerlo> "I think I know the English language." "Are you SURE?"
03:35:17 <kerlo> "Maybe your ability to speak English comes with no knowledge whatsoever!"
03:38:16 <GregorR> Arguably "the English language" isn't defined well enough to "know" or "not know" it :P
03:41:55 <pikhq> Thi sprak Englisc?
04:00:17 <GregorR> In 200 years that could be English :)
04:03:37 * Sgeo sneezes and infects the channel with deathflu.
04:04:52 <pikhq> That was English about a thousand years ago. ;p
04:25:59 <kerlo> I want to advance yer English.
04:26:52 <kerlo> Articles are closed-class, you say? Nonsense, I say! I just invented one!
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08:49:41 <Deewiant> http://jaypinkerton.com/2005/02/03/superman-origin-comics/
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09:47:42 <AnMaster> <GregorR> When the mad cow disease craziness was about, I didn't stop eating raw cow brains *shrugs* <-- you ate that before?
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14:18:31 <oerjan> <AnMaster> <GregorR> When the mad cow disease craziness was about, I didn't stop eating raw cow brains *shrugs* <-- you ate that before?
14:18:43 <oerjan> I bet he didn't stop beating his wife, either
14:19:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is completely unrelated. And IWC!
14:20:04 <oerjan> __ ___ _ ___ ___ ____ _ _
14:20:04 <oerjan> \ \ / / | | |/ _ \ / _ \/ ___|| | | |
14:20:04 <oerjan> \ \ /\ / /| |_| | | | | | | \___ \| |_| |
14:20:04 <oerjan> \ V V / | _ | |_| | |_| |___) | _ |
14:20:06 <oerjan> \_/\_/ |_| |_|\___/ \___/|____/|_| |_|
14:20:17 <Deewiant> International Whaling Commission?
14:20:33 <oerjan> Deewiant: irregular webcomic
14:21:31 <oerjan> although the other IWC may be more relevant to foodstuffs.
14:22:23 <oerjan> (giant WHOOSH courtesy of figlet)
14:23:56 <oerjan> also, poor captain ponsonby
14:24:23 <AnMaster> mouse and everything froze, then screen went black for a few seconds, then back to normal.
14:24:28 <AnMaster> [1106272.328198] NVRM: Xid (0001:00): 13, 0002 beef5f01 0000009f 00000308 030000d8 00000010
14:24:40 <AnMaster> anyone got any clue what might have happened
14:25:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: your monitor has zaphod beeblebrox' glasses
14:25:28 <oerjan> for *WHOOSH* protection, obviously
14:25:49 <AnMaster> I was trying to start an opengl app so I suspect it is somehow related to graphic card of ndivia drivers rather
14:27:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: maybe it's cosmic rays? any supernovas lately?
14:27:59 <AnMaster> it seems like Xid with the value of 13 there is nvidia related memory fault/invalid instruction/similar.
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14:29:23 * oerjan noted a science reddit recently about a new early warning facility for supernovas in the milky way, and found it amusing how some people in the comments looked forward to the next days...
14:30:59 <fizzie> There was that recent piece of news about the most distant gamma ray burst evar. Maybe your bits were flipped by a star that exploded some 13 short-scale-billion years ago.
14:31:37 <AnMaster> * oerjan noted a science reddit recently about a new early warning facility for supernovas in the milky way, and found it amusing how some people in the comments looked forward to the next days... <-- looking forward why...
14:32:16 <AnMaster> anyway it is reproducible with this program
14:32:37 <oerjan> apparently no one must have told them that supernovas happen only every 50 years on average, and the last one in our galaxy was seen in 1630 (iirc from wp)
14:32:55 <oerjan> *on average in a galaxy our size
14:33:58 <fizzie> For some reason my brain miscombinated ideas so that it came up with "oh, AnMaster has a reproducible supernova".
14:34:21 <fizzie> ./supernova --galaxy=ours --at=now+1h
14:36:10 <oerjan> fizzie: that _would_ be scary. *SPOILER* there was one in the recent baby-eating aliens story
14:37:06 <fizzie> --star-selection=random for the irresponsible folks, --star-selection=populated_worlds_only for the downright evil ones.
14:37:23 <oerjan> they used it to do what yudkowsky probably considers saving humanity
14:38:30 <oerjan> hm this channel _is_ +c...
14:39:46 <oerjan> logic porn? now that's scary
14:40:04 <nooga> ah yes, a woman was sentenced to 9 months of jail in Norway... for a rape
14:41:18 <oerjan> nooga: this was big news in poland? you perverts
14:42:08 * oerjan either hasn't read that or considered it nonmemorable
14:42:34 <nooga> nope, quite old actually
14:43:13 <nooga> but heh, norwegian jails are like 3 star hotels
14:43:48 <nooga> maybe it's quite benefoicial to rape a guy by sucking his cock while he's asleep
14:44:02 <nooga> and then... 9 months of free vacation in 3 star hotel
14:44:23 <oerjan> i don't think most norwegians consider that a vacation
14:44:33 <oerjan> you have to be very poor for that
14:44:34 <nooga> msut think about doing that
14:45:30 <nooga> yeah, everyone is poor compared with you :D
14:45:48 <oerjan> also i don't think you will have internet access even in norway, at least in your room.
14:46:22 <oerjan> (some of you here might consider that a deterrent ;D)
14:46:30 <fizzie> Can you get something to write code on, though? 9 distraction-free months do not sound too bad.
14:46:34 <nooga> i eat bark from trees and drink water from polluted stream
14:46:51 <nooga> i ride a bicycle made from garbage
14:47:23 <nooga> use computer stolen from one german guy that went where he shouldn't
14:48:11 <nooga> and and and, there are sheep everywhere, but they belong to rich poles
14:53:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:54:07 <oerjan> or it would have been better if selecting it actually made the text visible
14:54:51 <oerjan> is it impossible to do spoiler hiding with irc colors
14:55:06 <fizzie> On a color-filtering channel, certainly.
14:55:21 <ais523> clearly, we need spoiler characters in Unicode
14:55:27 <ais523> INVISIBLE UNLESS SELECTED LATIN A
14:55:32 <ais523> or maybe COMBINING SPOILER
14:56:06 <oerjan> oh irssi only reverses background/foreground when selecting
14:56:18 <oerjan> obviously that won't work for this :(
14:56:24 <fizzie> It is probably your terminal emulator doing it, not irssi.
14:56:54 <ais523> along the same line as right-to-left-override?
14:57:47 <lifthrasiir> that's unicode-only mechanism for tagging certain portion of text, for example language identification.
14:58:34 <oerjan> oh well it's not going to be portable anyway if there isn't a specific tag for it
14:58:36 <fizzie> Also the Unicode FAQ: "Should I be using those language tag characters? No. Use of the language tag characters is strongly discouraged."
14:58:39 <lifthrasiir> there is only one defined tag type: language tag. e.g. <LANGTAG><TAG E><TAG N><TAG -><TAG U><TAG S>text here<TAG CANCEL>
14:59:36 <lifthrasiir> but if there is <SPOILERTAG><TAG S><TAG P>... and so on, it might be useful
15:00:03 <nooga> i see all this Testing stuff
15:00:46 <oerjan> nooga: well you should have seen only the first one, if your client supported colors
15:01:08 <oerjan> and solid blocks for the others
15:01:27 <fizzie> Er, you know, the color-filtering mode is on.
15:01:34 <fizzie> It was "1,1Testing" there and so on.
15:02:00 <oerjan> remembering the flag backwards
15:02:49 <oerjan> i mean +c should mean _more_ colors, right? grmblgrmbl
15:03:48 <oerjan> and stupid irssi which doesn't notice on your own text
15:04:37 <oerjan> and me only doing this same stupid error at _least_ twice before :D
15:05:20 <oerjan> alzheimer. that must be it.
15:05:57 <oerjan> also, oklopolio, which leads to incessant babbling
15:06:18 <oerjan> wait, where _is_ the guy
15:28:33 <nooga> i thought it'd be bold
15:29:05 <nooga> since _underlined_ is underlined
15:29:23 <nooga> so, no ? allowed inside
15:29:50 <oerjan> indeed. also, we both use irssi, i don't know how portable this is
15:44:03 <Slereah> What is wrong with this expression :
15:44:11 <ais523> Slereah: it's only a single colon
15:44:20 <ais523> which isn't a valid expression in most languages
15:44:44 <Slereah> F[Floor[RandomInteger[BinomialDistribution[Nu, p]]*k/Nu]]
15:44:44 <Slereah> Set::setps: Particules[[71]] in the part assignment is not a symbol. \
15:45:01 <Slereah> Particules := Table[{0; En/k*i}, {i, 0, k}]
15:45:01 <Slereah> F[x_] := Particules[[x]][[0]]++
15:46:04 <Deewiant> Slereah: Lists indices start from 1
15:46:50 <Deewiant> [[0]] gives you the head of the expression, namely List
15:47:11 <Deewiant> Slereah: And what's that {0: En/k*i}
15:48:09 <Deewiant> Slereah: You used a semicolon. Did you want a comma?
15:48:26 <Deewiant> {0; En/k*i} is equivalent to {En/k*i}
15:48:34 <Deewiant> Since ; is like C's comma operator
15:50:32 -!- ais523 has set topic: http://dickensurl.com/1b34/It%E2%80%99s_my_old_girl_that_advises._She_has_the_head._But_I_never_own_to_it_before_her._Discipline_must_be_maintained..
15:50:47 <Deewiant> Beyond that it looks good to me, if something else is messed up it's probably because of Nu/En/k which you didn't give
15:50:59 <Slereah> Still Set::setps: Particules[[69]] in the part assignment is not a symbol. \
15:52:39 <Slereah> Apparently, Particules[[x]][[1]]++ can't work
15:52:43 <Deewiant> ais523: Is that link supposed to be non-broken?
15:52:48 <Deewiant> Slereah: Yeah, I was wondering about that myself.
15:53:04 <Deewiant> ais523: Ah, my auto-linkifier missed the period at the end.
15:53:20 <Slereah> How can you return the list incremented at x?
15:53:36 <Deewiant> You want to return Particules[[x]]?
15:54:11 <Deewiant> Particules[[x]][[1]]++; Particules[[x]] ?
15:54:14 -!- ais523 has set topic: <http://dickensurl.com/1b34/It%E2%80%99s_my_old_girl_that_advises._She_has_the_head._But_I_never_own_to_it_before_her._Discipline_must_be_maintained.>.
15:54:24 <Deewiant> ais523: It still misses it, FWIW. :-)
15:54:25 <ais523> beh, even with the angle brackets my autolinkifier gets it wrong too
15:54:34 <Slereah> What does ; do in said case?
15:55:07 <Deewiant> Slereah: Like ; or , in most other languages. Executes the first part then returns the second.
15:55:09 <oerjan> ais523: i guess this channel was never meant for fine art
15:55:32 <ais523> maybe I should vary the target URL slightly
15:55:46 <ais523> even then, though, it's likely to have a final full stop
15:57:55 <tombom> what language are you using there
15:58:03 <Deewiant> Slereah: Hmm, I think some pass-by-ref stuff has to be done for F
15:58:17 <Deewiant> Slereah: It works standalone, just not in a function.
15:59:35 <Deewiant> Slereah: Can't you just program functionally, like you're meant to? :-P
16:00:24 <Deewiant> Write that so that you don't try to modify the original
16:00:27 <Slereah> Also it doesn't actually work as standalone
16:00:45 <Deewiant> In[9]:= xs={{1,2},{3,4}}; xs[[1]][[1]]++; xs[[1]]
16:01:56 <Slereah> In[40]:= Particles; Particles[[1]][[1]]++; Particles
16:01:56 <Slereah> During evaluation of In[40]:= Part::partd: Part specification \
16:01:56 <Slereah> Particles[[1]] is longer than depth of object. >>
16:01:56 <Slereah> During evaluation of In[40]:= Set::setps: Particles[[1]] in the part \
16:01:56 <Slereah> assignment is not a symbol. >>
16:02:22 <Deewiant> Slereah: Particules, not Particles?
16:02:34 <nooga> what's the language?
16:02:38 <Slereah> Particules gives Set::setps: Particules[[1]] in the part assignment is not a symbol. >>
16:03:16 <Deewiant> Shrug, it works for me at toplevel scope.
16:03:36 <nooga> mean lean blatmachine by stephen wolfram ?
16:04:48 <Deewiant> Slereah: I don't know. Just code it non-imperatively :-P
16:05:18 <oerjan> nooga: it's good for your hair!
16:06:14 <oerjan> it's imperative to be objective about your functional programming
16:06:14 <nooga> let me take another one
16:07:12 <nooga> damn, the keyboard is weird
16:08:35 <ehird> 02:19 Sgeo: What's it like to know that your simple decision has killed hundrens, and might kill millions?
16:08:35 <ehird> I don't exactly fault the husband here
16:08:38 <ehird> 00:27 lifthrasiir: ehird: i was sleeping... sorry for too late answer. what was the question?
16:08:44 <ehird> lifthrasiir: how do you handle exact bounds / wrapping?
16:08:55 <AnMaster> ehird, question: where does OS X store it's font files.
16:09:05 <lifthrasiir> ehird: counting non-whitespace cells in each lines and columns, and so on.
16:09:11 <nooga> probably in OSX hell
16:09:14 <lifthrasiir> maybe same with AnMaster's algorithm, iirc.
16:09:18 <ehird> AnMaster: /Library/Fonts, ~/Library/Fonts
16:09:34 <ehird> AnMaster: to convert a .dfont use fondu
16:09:38 <ehird> lifthrasiir: what license is pyfunge again? :)
16:10:07 <nooga> how many funges are there?
16:10:35 <ehird> nooga: implementations
16:10:37 <AnMaster> ehird, but there are some in /System/Library/Fonts too
16:10:44 <ehird> AnMaster: that's as may be.
16:10:54 <ehird> lifthrasiir: yay, I can wantonly steal code from it! ;-)
16:10:58 <ehird> Or, at least, could if I knew where it was.
16:11:00 <Slereah> F[x_] := MapAt[s, Particules, x]
16:11:08 <nooga> maybe an iFunge for iPhone?
16:11:10 <Slereah> Can't go wrong with the successor function*
16:11:11 <AnMaster> ehird, ah it seems to be core GUI fonts, for menus and such
16:11:11 <ais523> AnMaster: you're using OSX?
16:11:20 <ehird> AnMaster: seems likely
16:11:34 <ehird> ais523: don't think about it, i think your/my brain might overheat
16:11:39 <AnMaster> ais523, Well I'm trying to solve some bugs with an OS X system. And I was going to copy some nice fonts while I was at it.
16:11:47 <AnMaster> but the issue in question seems LDAP related.
16:11:50 <ais523> ehird: this in combination with your comments about Windows 7 is really quite worrying
16:11:59 <nooga> my brain overheats all the time i'm using mac
16:12:17 <ais523> nooga: yep, Macs use psychic cooling
16:12:19 <ehird> guys I'm going to work for Microsoft, AnMaster's working on OS X 10.7's hardware-lockdown code
16:12:25 <AnMaster> ehird, basically: waking up from sleep or logging in takes several minutes. System logs show lots of LDAP related errors.
16:12:31 <ehird> we're being paid millions
16:12:35 <ais523> fans would be too noisy, so instead they channel excess heat into the user's brain
16:12:35 <ehird> AnMaster: How odd.
16:12:38 <ehird> AnMaster: What did the user do?
16:12:45 <ehird> Don't say they didn't do something, they did :P
16:12:46 <ais523> it drives them slightly mad, it's how the reality distortion field works
16:12:57 <AnMaster> ehird, the account is *supposed* to sync to work place sync server.
16:13:01 <ehird> ais523: Subject: Cease and desist
16:13:07 <AnMaster> ehird, except it doesn't. Due to failing to connect.
16:13:13 <ehird> You are revealing Apple patented trade secrets.
16:13:21 <ehird> We must demand you cease immediately.
16:13:22 <AnMaster> ehird, any idea where I can look up exact meaning of error codes for apple system daemons
16:13:33 <ehird> AnMaster: paste the error?
16:13:37 <ehird> This is from Console.app, right?
16:13:49 <ehird> /Applications/Utilities/Consol
16:13:51 <AnMaster> ehird, the error is found using the system log viewer thingy.
16:14:10 <ehird> But, yeah, paste the error
16:14:13 <AnMaster> ehird, the error is in English, let me find a way to transfer it
16:14:29 <ehird> Then Cmd-V in a pastebin
16:14:38 <ais523> wow, mag-heut has a massive barrier to entry
16:14:38 <ehird> AnMaster: what version is this?
16:14:52 <nooga> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
16:14:53 <ehird> 10.4's netinfo/ldap stuff drives me crazy
16:15:05 <nooga> this might be even more fucked up than 10.5
16:15:20 <ehird> Slereah: you're using a trial at work?
16:15:31 <ais523> in order to register, you have to a) register via a CAPTCHA-based web form b) simultaneously, or close to it, email the admin c) reply to the activation email with actual sentences, not just a few words d) once you've passed that human-based Turing Test, you still have to post something ontopic within 24 hours
16:15:49 <Slereah> ehird: You only get some licence per day, IIRC
16:15:56 <AnMaster> ehird, lots of repeated: http://pastebin.ca/1407412
16:16:03 <AnMaster> exact same message about 200 times
16:16:07 <ehird> ais523: wow, that board is IPB 1.1.2
16:16:07 <Slereah> But fuck that shit nigger, I'll finish it at home
16:16:10 <ehird> that thing's really ancient
16:16:15 <ehird> the oldest i've seen in the wild is 1.3
16:16:24 <ehird> 1.1.2 was when IPB was free, IIRC
16:16:33 <ehird> I had its source from the internet archive a while back
16:16:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried google without much luck other than recommending re-configuring the ldap setup
16:16:49 <AnMaster> so it would be useful to know what the error code meant.
16:16:50 <ais523> AnMaster: why not just change settings at random?
16:17:01 <ais523> in theory, it'll start working then if you change things for long enough
16:17:16 <ehird> AnMaster: Open terminal, "man DirectoryService | grep 14002"
16:17:21 <ais523> at least, if there's a finite number of settings, each with finitely many entries
16:17:26 <ehird> tell me what the error name is
16:17:30 <ehird> eDSOpenNodeFailed = -14002
16:17:35 <ehird> AnMaster: is the server down?
16:17:48 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:17:59 <ais523> that reminds me of Windows at the University, if the server's down it freezes for 8 minutes at login
16:18:03 <AnMaster> ehird, hrrm... I don't *think* so. but I guess it is possible it is related to the network.
16:18:03 <ais523> which isn't really ideal for lectures
16:18:06 <ehird> wow, mpx3.virginska.orebro.se uses mac os x server
16:18:13 <ehird> AnMaster: http://mpx3.virginska.orebro.se/ has a stock index.html
16:18:35 <AnMaster> well I don't think $user knows.
16:18:49 <ehird> AnMaster: err why is $user syncing to a server he doesn't know
16:19:02 <Slereah> ehird : Know what's worse?
16:19:09 <Slereah> The licence is shared by everyone
16:19:22 <Slereah> So if someone wastes it, no Mathematica for you
16:20:09 <AnMaster> ehird, because workplace set it up. And the mac support guy stopped working there so no one know how to fix anything any more. $user asked me to check out why computer was so slow at login and wake up from sleep and I traced it down to this LDAP issue.
16:20:22 <nooga> they've got balls of steel
16:20:23 <AnMaster> Reason $user asked me was she knows I'm geeky.
16:20:29 <ehird> nooga: it's just unix/apache
16:20:33 <ehird> with some gui tools
16:20:41 <ehird> apple's server hardware is pretty nice, so.
16:20:55 <ehird> AnMaster: well, this syncing isn't happening, right?
16:21:01 <ehird> and nobody's yelling from the rooftops?
16:21:03 <ehird> why not just reomve it
16:21:07 <ais523> it makes about as much sense as running a Darwin server, which makes almost as much sense as running a FreeBSD server
16:21:13 <ais523> ehird: probably that'll annoy $workplace
16:21:26 <AnMaster> ehird, actually it seems to happen just now. It said "refreshed credentials from LDAPv3 server" in the log.
16:21:30 <nooga> AnMaster: you're from orebro?
16:21:56 <ehird> ais523: if it wasn't syncing it can't annoy them any more
16:22:06 <AnMaster> nooga, Something like that yes. Or close to.
16:22:10 <ais523> could be if it would have started syncing again later
16:22:18 <AnMaster> ehird, however sleep still makes it lock up.
16:22:34 <AnMaster> even though it *did* just sync
16:22:40 <nooga> AnMaster: been there, and near
16:23:07 <ehird> oh, yay, bogons accept migration authority codes
16:23:12 <ehird> their script just doesn't recognize it on our line :D
16:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I already considered bad wlan (there are around 8 reachable networks here...) But connecting it by ethernet doesn't help.
16:24:25 <ehird> AnMaster: scrap all ldap config, reconfigure?
16:24:38 <ehird> if you can't copy/paste a password look for a .plist in ~/Library, it'll be in plaintext
16:24:46 <AnMaster> ehird, tried that before I first mentioned it in channel. I don't have access to server side.
16:24:58 <ehird> I mean on the client
16:24:58 <AnMaster> ehird, except it isn't set up to use either ssl or auth. :(
16:25:25 <ehird> :-(... it seems my ISP is "LLU'd"
16:25:32 <ehird> local loop unbundling, go fig
16:25:34 <ehird> Deewiant: you sure?
16:26:05 <ehird> the internet archive shall settl this raging dispute
16:26:24 <ehird> ais523: do you know what local loop unbundling is?
16:26:27 <Deewiant> Or wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invision_Power_Board
16:26:32 <ais523> AnMaster: it synched, without SSL or any authentication?
16:26:33 <Deewiant> "The last free full version is Invision Power Board 1.3.1, which is not as widespread as 1.3 because of the short available time before 2.0 replaced it."
16:26:42 <ais523> might be fun synching it from somewhere else for fun
16:26:45 <ehird> One Year License Β· $69.95
16:26:45 <ehird> This will give you one year license to use Invision Power Board for one installation on all current and future versions. Selecting this option will also give you discounts on many of the extras for Invision Power Board. At the end of one year your board will continue to run but will be unsupported unless you renew service. More Information...
16:26:54 <ehird> i guess 2 was out by then
16:26:54 <AnMaster> ehird, the catalog manager thingy app in Tool Apps (%Β€#%&Β€ l10n) says contacts are set up to sync too. Address book thing time...
16:27:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Tool Apps = Utilities
16:27:14 <ais523> almost $70? for a board?
16:27:15 <ehird> AnMaster: what do the icons look like
16:27:18 <ehird> that'll be more helpful
16:27:20 <ehird> ais523: the software
16:27:29 <ehird> ais523: IPB is targeted at enterprise lackeys :)
16:27:32 <AnMaster> ehird, Like a map, With a compass on.
16:27:33 <Deewiant> ehird: Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_loop_unbundling
16:27:38 <ais523> I was wondering why it was so expensive
16:27:39 <ehird> didn't used to, but us now
16:27:44 <ais523> I know the University just use phpBB
16:27:46 <ehird> ais523: vbulletin is more expensive
16:27:55 <ais523> which is awful, but I suppose cheap and good enough
16:28:01 <nooga> AnMaster: most boring area of sweden
16:28:08 <ehird> ais523: vbulletin is $100/year
16:28:25 <ehird> $180 for indefinite, though, so I don't know why people would buy a one year license
16:28:38 <nooga> AnMaster: proove it
16:28:45 <ehird> AnMaster: directory utility
16:28:54 <ais523> yay, my email's back up
16:28:57 <ehird> AnMaster: I mean remove all syncing then put it back
16:29:35 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I turned off all that. And removed the ldap server from the auth search path. That did temporarily solve the speed issue.
16:29:50 <AnMaster> and of course made errors go away.
16:29:51 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:29:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Problem exists between server and server imo :-P
16:30:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I suspect this is on server side...
16:30:45 <AnMaster> ehird, hm different errors in the log now Let me pastebin again.
16:31:12 <ehird> AnMaster: if you can't figure it out I can connect via vnc and take a look
16:31:16 <ehird> (OS X comes with a vnc server)
16:32:50 <AnMaster> ehird, http://pastebin.ca/Ha1Dr-fT (pass: blah)
16:33:01 <AnMaster> (reason for pass is I wanted to try that feature)
16:33:09 <ehird> Yeah that totally seems like a server issue
16:33:15 <ehird> But I can try and fix it if you want :P
16:33:29 <ehird> (Reason for that is I want to try OS X's vnc :-P)
16:33:42 <AnMaster> ehird, nah. I'll tell $user what to tell the incompetent admins at $workplace instead :P
16:33:57 <ehird> os x's dev tools come with such weird things
16:34:00 <AnMaster> and I wouldn't trust you with that access.
16:34:15 <ehird> apps that look like they were ported from mac os classic that let you tweak internal cpu registers and shit
16:34:40 <AnMaster> I think it had a different name on classic
16:34:52 <AnMaster> but I do remember an app like it
16:35:34 <ehird> it also comes with a few apps that are basically complete commercial quality stuff
16:35:45 <ehird> like quartz composer (max/msp for graphics) and au lab
16:35:55 <ehird> it's a load of bric-a-brac
16:36:10 <ehird> Quoth CHUD Remover.app:
16:36:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:36:17 <ehird> You are about to remove any and all CHUD files from your system.
16:37:45 <AnMaster> this macbook has not AltGr I just noticed. And I need to write a key that needs it on Swedish keyboards.
16:37:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Use option.
16:38:12 <ais523> "You are about to remove any and all CHUD files from your system. No, this isn't a chance for you to change your mind, this is just a prediction."
16:38:47 <AnMaster> something like oprofile wasn't it?
16:38:59 <ehird> Computer Hardware Understanding Development Tools
16:38:59 <ehird> A set of software tools, collectively Computer Hardware Understanding Development Tools (CHUD Tools) measure software performance on Mac OS X, to aid in optimizing. Also provides hardware system benchmarks
16:40:01 -!- coppro has joined.
16:42:03 <AnMaster> this macbook keyboard is horribly small to type on.
16:42:14 <ehird> well tiger, I suppose 2006
16:42:25 <ehird> yeah that's gonna be a bit cramped.
16:42:33 <AnMaster> and I don't know how to find out from inside os x
16:42:45 <ehird> AnMaster: system preferences β display β examine resolution :-P
16:43:13 <AnMaster> "display" was translated to "monitors" (in plural yes)
16:44:15 <AnMaster> first item in apple menu says "2.16 GHz Core 2 Duo" btw
16:44:28 <ehird> AnMaster: stop making me feel inferior, that's the speed of mine :D
16:45:14 <AnMaster> ooh seems user have used both firefox 3 and firefox 2 at once. I wonder what that did to the profile folder...
16:45:41 <ehird> aa! firefox on mac?
16:45:47 <ehird> my unintegration senses are tingling
16:46:35 <ehird> Chipset Model:ATY,RadeonX1600 β I really wanna know why s/I/Y/
16:46:42 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. User said "Lotus Dommino Web Access" (used at work) had issues in safari so she switched to firefox. It also had issues in firefox3... so she had to go to firefox2 when she needed to use it.
16:47:08 <Deewiant> ehird: http://support.apple.com/kb/TA26745
16:47:34 <ehird> Deewiant: that's not very helpful, I want to know why ATI did it
16:47:43 <AnMaster> "This is because ATI chose to identify themselves as ATY in the ROM."
16:48:00 <ehird> i guess Ys are cheaper :-)
16:48:34 <ehird> Array TechnologY ... Todo?
16:48:54 <AnMaster> wow user has a thunderbird "in" mailbox that is over 500 MB after selecting to compress the mail box (which took several minutes)
16:48:59 <ehird> lol, it's ATI Technologies and ATI stands for Array Technologies Incorporated
16:49:02 <ehird> Array Technologies Incorporated Technologies
16:49:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Mine is over a gig, I think
16:49:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, huh. You don't move it to other directories?
16:49:26 <ehird> AnMaster: mine's 794MB
16:49:38 <ehird> i have no directories, but I do have labels :-P
16:49:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well in thunderbird I meant.
16:49:56 <AnMaster> gmail works differently of course
16:49:57 <ehird> well, my inbox is about 2k messages
16:49:59 <ehird> agora is about 10k
16:50:09 <ehird> nomicron is just a few hundred
16:50:13 <ehird> so agora+b will be the bulk
16:50:17 <ehird> modulo attachments in the inbox
16:50:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I used to not, but I do now so maybe it's smaller
16:50:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I have two mails in my inbox atm, the rest is in various relevant directories.
16:50:56 <ehird> AnMaster: I assume you delete messages you're done iwth
16:51:12 <Deewiant> Inbox's subdirectories are 30M
16:51:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I delete spam and old svn/cvs/whatever commit mailing list mails. But I keep all other, organized in a directory structure.
16:52:00 <ehird> Oh, you're obsessive compulsive with hierarchy because you don't have a good mail search engine
16:52:01 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
16:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I do have a good handling system. filters for mailing lists.
16:52:36 <AnMaster> 97% of the mail I get is from mailing lists.
16:52:45 <ehird> AnMaster: so if you're in 500 irc channels, how many tens of thousands of mailing lists
16:53:07 <Deewiant> ehird: I prefer hierarchical sorting to searching
16:53:08 <AnMaster> ehird, less than 1000. Just 7 mailing lists.
16:53:17 <ehird> "Experience unmatched 3D gaming performance designed and fine tuned for ultimate entertainment. Crank up the settings and get ready to frag like youβve never fragged before. Prepare to DOMINATE!"
16:53:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I really don't like mail
16:53:33 <ais523> ehird: that would play rather badly with a defragmenter
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16:55:52 <Deewiant> Any ideas for what DIRF should do when rerunning them due to TRDS?
16:56:13 <AnMaster> what about HFS+. I remember it got very fragmented pre-OS X
16:56:24 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB0JodKgZ0A&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fgame%2Eamd%2Ecom%2Fus%2Den%2Funlock%5Fphenomiiblack%2Easpx&feature=player_embedded
16:56:35 <ehird> In which we overclock a cpu to 6.5ghz and have to run it at near absolute zero
16:56:38 <AnMaster> so bad I have a copy of "Norton Utilities" that includes a defragenter... Somewhere.
16:56:39 <ehird> Because we are batshit insane
16:57:36 <ehird> "i hope you intel fanboys are embarresed amd just beat intels ass in overclocking and in 3d mark by alot i hope to see more than 8+ghz in the future from amd but hey man amd is getting back on it`s feet and starting to beat intel once again and the day amd owner kicks the intel owners ass will come "
16:57:51 <ehird> amd are better than intel because if you run amd processors at absolute zero they can have higher ghz
16:57:58 <ehird> the stunning intelligence of youtube!
16:58:09 <ehird> Deewiant: but in the most hilarious way possible
16:58:31 <Deewiant> Personally, I usually get headaches
16:58:45 <ehird> yeah but they're funny headaches
16:58:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Agreed. If we are going to argue about Intel and AMD lets at least do it with proper grammar. Technical relevance is an extra bonus.
16:59:19 <ehird> AnMaster: don't YOU have a liquid nitrogen/helium cooling set up at home and a wanton attitude to expensive hardware?
16:59:28 <ehird> you're not a real enthusiast!
16:59:46 <ehird> Deewiant: wuz dirf
16:59:53 <ehird> "Hope to see the 7ghz barrier gone soon."
16:59:55 <ehird> Good god you morons
17:00:05 <Deewiant> // Directory functions extension
17:00:14 <ehird> They'll be arguing for 7ghz when we're running 5 billion core computers @ 3ghz
17:00:53 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I have one of those bluetooth apple mice here. Two buttons but none visible on top. And a ball instead of a wheel. Now I just noticed that unlike most optical mice it doesn't seem to have led to light the surface. just tested by lifting it up and holding it a few mm above the surface and looking in between.
17:01:03 <ehird> AnMaster: that's a mighty mouse
17:01:09 <ehird> also, it's a different tracker technology
17:01:12 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Didn't remember the name.
17:01:13 <ehird> the wired one uses regular optical stuff
17:01:19 <AnMaster> and what is the tracker technology.
17:01:29 <fizzie> Deewiant: Do LVM snapshots after each DIRF operation so you can time-travel better.
17:01:41 <ehird> AnMaster: laser tracking
17:01:46 <ehird> as opposed to the wired's optical trackng
17:01:51 <Deewiant> fizzie: I'm not even keeping track of what came out of stdin, so no.
17:02:01 <AnMaster> ehird, so shouldn't one see a small dot from the laser on the surface?
17:02:13 <AnMaster> or am I misunderstanding something
17:02:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: You should also do snapshots of the user's mental state. And then rewrite it when TRDSing around.
17:02:26 <ehird> look above the power switch
17:02:29 <ehird> that green light is the laser, I think
17:02:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: I don't need to, TRDS affects the user's mental state heavily all by itself.
17:02:46 <AnMaster> ehird, no it is the "power is on" light I think
17:02:55 <AnMaster> it changes blinking pattern when out of range
17:03:03 <ehird> AnMaster: and the two buttons are touch-sensitive
17:03:12 <ehird> that's why you have to lift your left finger off to right click :\
17:03:40 <fizzie> I think the "laser mice" use infrared laser diodes. At least that's what infallopedia says.
17:03:47 <ehird> the wheel is nice for moving around big images
17:03:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't see any surface on it that would work as touch sensitive
17:04:01 <AnMaster> but it would explain why I can't right click!
17:04:11 <ehird> it takes a few tries
17:04:24 <AnMaster> ehird, the mouse is too small too.
17:04:42 <ehird> AnMaster: gawd, how big are you? do you go "fe fi fo fum"? :-D
17:05:00 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, that is one thing Microsoft managed. Good mice. Microsoft intellimouse, usb.
17:05:12 <ehird> i haaaaaaaaate ergonomic mice
17:05:32 <ehird> i just like a little dip on the sides and a curved surface Like God Intended.
17:05:40 <AnMaster> ehird, err what. It isn't that much ergonomic. Since it is a variant that works for both left and right hand
17:05:40 <fizzie> This logitech I-forget-the-model-already is laser-based; although it always annoys me a bit when they compare it to "optical mice", given that's it's really not very non-optical, they've just changed the light source.
17:05:42 <ehird> also low scrollwheel since I rest on it :P
17:05:48 <oerjan> fizzie: there could be some testing bias there. say, if all the < infrared diodes killed the testers
17:06:07 <ehird> AnMaster: not if you rest your finger on it
17:06:10 <ehird> as opposed to switching to it
17:06:21 <ehird> because then you get issues with your hands.
17:06:23 <ehird> due to the bending
17:06:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well 3 fingers on top of the mouse does work, but it is cramped.
17:06:57 <fizzie> (Also I don't think there's any rule saying that a laser light needs to be a tightly focused beam that would form a dot; from what I've read, the point just seems to be that you get interference effects (== better surface-tracking) whenever you have coherent light coming out.
17:06:58 <ehird> lol on that 6.5ghz they used ddr2 memory
17:08:14 <AnMaster> sadly it seems like that went out of fashion currently.
17:08:18 <fizzie> There was a rather gruesome eye safety instructions text about laser-related experiments in the physics lab course manuals. It was all "this wavelength laser won't cause eye reflexes to happen so it'll cook your eyeball, whether this one just burns your retina so fast you won't have time to blink".
17:08:22 <ehird> AnMaster: what advantages?
17:08:37 <ehird> fizzie: "whereas", I assume
17:08:48 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_Buffered_DIMM
17:08:53 <oerjan> ehird: AnMaster is actually a mountain in SkΓ₯ne
17:09:13 <ehird> AnMaster: what's the advantage over ddr3
17:09:19 <ehird> In 2007 Intel Developer Forum, it was revealed that major memory manufacturers have no plans to extend FB-DIMM to support DDR3 SDRAM. Instead, only registered DIMM for DDR3 SDRAM had been demonstrated.[15]
17:09:38 <fizzie> I had an Intellimouse 3.0 which indeed was a good mouse, at least up to the point it developed a serious double-clicking-all-the-time syndrome (after years of use).
17:10:13 <AnMaster> ehird, also you could combine it with ddr3 as far as I remember.
17:10:31 <AnMaster> when it comes to the speed bit and such
17:10:34 <comex> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Safe-ASCII-Love.aspx
17:11:37 <ehird> http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200904/dh.gif
17:11:40 <ehird> Oh, the embarrasment!
17:11:51 <ehird> ais523: OBSCURE REFERENCE BUDDIES *HI5*
17:12:09 <fizzie> "The color of the optical mouse's light-emitting diodes varies with each model. -- Some models' diodes even change color, cycling through colors of the rainbow for instance." Wow, that's... flashy.
17:12:33 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: regarding TRDS, i think that argument to chdir should be stored somewhere; mkdir and rmdir should be no-op or reflect according to its original result. (i'm not good at TRDS however)
17:13:03 <fizzie> The red light in the Intellimouse was really really bright; a lot brighter than some later visible-spectrum optical mouse.
17:13:04 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: In theory yes, if you want to be accurate
17:14:32 <ehird> "Backlit keyboard (British) & User's Guide (French)" β Apple store configuration option
17:14:39 <ehird> All my british keyboard manuals are in french.
17:14:42 <lifthrasiir> i'm considering this strategy: tag every command with unsafe flag (and by default every command is unsafe); safe command is safe to execute of course.
17:15:24 <lifthrasiir> when re-executing unsafe commands it doesn't execute them at all, it just replays recorded Funge space changes and IP/delta changes, and so on.
17:15:37 <oerjan> ehird: well obviously the french need the instructions more, seeing as they aren't used to the keyboard
17:15:44 <comex> I was always scared to look at optical mice because I thought they used lasers :/
17:16:02 <comex> except some actually do
17:16:04 <lifthrasiir> (though as i stated above this strategy is not compliant to spec. i'm not sure.)
17:16:31 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: If you record all the changes then that should work, yes.
17:16:51 * ehird stares into optical mice
17:16:56 <lifthrasiir> and python is enough reflective to do this. :p
17:16:58 <ehird> Just try and fuckin' burn my iris! :|
17:17:22 * oerjan watches ehird get both scarred and scared.
17:17:26 <comex> python is reflective enough to burn my retina if I use a laser mouse with it
17:18:24 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you know what fb-ram is now right?
17:19:18 <AnMaster> ehird, Intel management messup as far as I remember when I learnt about it about a year ago.
17:19:18 <ehird> "FB-DIMMs absolutely kill memory latency"
17:19:52 <ehird> Tell that to the figures.
17:20:09 <comex> they decrease memory latency?
17:20:36 <comex> that is not killing latency :<
17:20:44 <fizzie> ehird: Incidentally, I tested that Logitech Whatever Illuminated Keyboard while picking up other things; it felt scissor-switchey and reasonably pleasant to write on (although all this stuff is so user-centric), although the layout was a bit strange. At least in the fi keyboard layout the backspace wasn't completely tiny; about twice the width of a normal key, maybe a bit smaller than what's common in keyboards around here (which seems to be about the width o
17:20:44 <fizzie> f two adjacent keys, including the gap between them).
17:20:49 <ehird> there's now more of you
17:21:08 <ehird> fizzie: hokaydokey
17:21:16 <comex> fwiw, I'm not awfully pleased with my apple keyboard
17:21:19 <ehird> fizzie: did you see that auroraarara thing brushed aluminium-looking one?
17:21:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, ffs, try to keep within one line. the effect of doing what you just did is tl;dr
17:21:29 <ehird> that looked quite nice
17:21:35 <ehird> AnMaster: fu, I read it
17:21:37 <ehird> and it was directed at me
17:21:40 <ehird> and it was helpful
17:22:12 <AnMaster> ehird, yes your way of lots of linebreaks is more annoying ;P
17:24:48 <ehird> http://www.bbc.co.uk/election97/frameset.htm β HOLY FUCK RETRO
17:25:55 <fizzie> I don't get early warning when I'm going out. But it seems I wouldn't be very twittur-compatible.
17:26:21 <ehird> ew, the main isp traffic exchange thing in the uk welcomed the pirate bay verdict
17:26:24 <ehird> go fuck yourselves
17:26:43 <ehird> lifthrasiir: where's the pyfunge src?
17:27:12 <lifthrasiir> just do hg clone http://hg.mearie.org/pyfunge-0.5/ .
17:27:52 <lifthrasiir> and i think there is PyPI package too: http://packages.python.org/PyFunge/ maybe.
17:28:07 <lifthrasiir> well, that should be http://pypi.python.org/pypi/PyFunge/
17:28:07 -!- comex has changed nick to Quazie.
17:28:20 <ehird> Quazie: THE TRUTH IS OUT
17:28:56 <ehird> lifthrasiir: do you shrink bounds as well as grow?
17:29:22 <ehird> lifthrasiir: but you only store minimum bounds for the whole space?
17:29:28 <ehird> not per-line/col or whatever
17:30:14 <lifthrasiir> well... in fact, it doesn't shrink bounds normally, it just update the information necessary to calculate correct bounds (i.e. that per-line/col things)
17:30:30 <ehird> the code looks computationally expensive.
17:30:31 <lifthrasiir> and it shrinks bounds only if requested, e.g. by y
17:31:07 <lifthrasiir> there is always a room for improvement, but i have no time to do it atm
17:31:46 <ehird> right, I pretty much want to optimize for wrapping and exactness
17:32:01 <ehird> num-of-non-space cells can be calculated at y time
17:32:50 <lifthrasiir> it can possible if right data structure is used. i don't think current one, dict from coordinate to non-space cells, cannot.
17:33:31 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:33:52 <ehird> this along with the stack overflow in Data.Map is currently blocking hypha :-(
17:34:44 <Deewiant> This is not really important :-P
17:35:45 <ehird> I can't parse mycology
17:35:49 <ehird> thats pretty fuckin important :||
17:36:10 <ehird> I want a correct fungespace :< But kay, I'll make them inexact for now
17:36:52 <ehird> Deewiant: 17:36 edwardk: ehird: but Data.Map is strict except for he value
17:37:19 <Deewiant> ehird: Like I said yesterday, I suspect it's your code's fault.
17:37:29 <ehird> I'm stripping it down
17:37:38 <Deewiant> ehird: Are you forcing the map between inserts?
17:37:42 <ehird> Deewiant: also, isn't insertWith' just Map.insert !$ or $! or w/e
17:37:44 <ehird> lifthrasiir: no no no
17:37:48 <ehird> i'm trying to make it all strict
17:38:06 <oerjan> ehird: although you could still get a stack overflow just from the map if you are only looking at it after a heap of changes
17:39:13 <AnMaster> ehird, one good thing about mac hardware though. Almost silent.
17:39:23 <Deewiant> ehird: With const, it actually probably is.
17:39:27 <AnMaster> though laptops tend to be quieter so don't know how significant it is.
17:40:43 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/8gbhq/actually_facebook_no_no_i_didnt/c0974oj β wow privatefreedom is an idiot
17:40:51 <AnMaster> ehird, ah I think the issue is partly due to wlan. It is slow with ethernet now. But not nearly as slow.
17:41:00 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't seem to connect to the wlan before login.
17:41:27 <AnMaster> I guess it is due to needing to unlock the keychain first.
17:41:43 <ehird> cat :: [Input] -> [Output]
17:41:43 <ehird> cat xs = GetChar : (let (GetCharR c : xs') = xs in PutChar c : cat xs')
17:41:44 <ehird> β stream based IO is awesome (this will scare oerjan)
17:42:36 <oerjan> it's not as type safe as monads though
17:44:20 <oerjan> also no EOF handling i assume
17:44:24 <Deewiant> ehird: My guess is you're building up a thunkpile of Map.inserts which is what overflows your stack
17:44:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:44:54 <ehird> Any ideas as to a solution?
17:45:36 <Deewiant> ehird: Don't build up a thunkpile like that?
17:45:45 <ehird> Deewiant: No shit sherlock
17:46:05 <AnMaster> ehird, when waking up from sleep (system logs): http://pastebin.ca/1407508
17:46:12 <Deewiant> ehird: Given that you're using crap like {-# UNPACK #-} I figured you'd know how to force a thunk
17:46:15 <AnMaster> I mean for the wireless network sure, but for lo?
17:46:17 <ehird> Deewiant: I do know
17:46:45 <AnMaster> ehird, "mDNSResponder: Repeated transitions for interface lo0 (127.0.0.1); delaying packets by 5 seconds" seems like a very odd error to me.
17:47:31 -!- Dewi has joined.
17:50:14 <ehird> "EFI is an average/cheap mobo maker at best (not to say unreliable, just average in function, and performance). They are no DFI, or ASUS, not even close."
17:52:24 <Deewiant> http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200904/mandelbrot.xml
17:52:58 <AnMaster> ehird, where was that idiot quote from
17:53:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2816&cp=2
17:53:20 <ehird> AnMaster: comments of the article dissing fb-ram
17:53:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200904/mandelbrot.xml is just some unicode stuff with #FFF and such after?
17:53:59 <ehird> AnMaster: get a decent browser
17:54:14 <ehird> make it know what xslt is?
17:54:18 <ehird> i'm sure ff3 does xslt.
17:56:12 <AnMaster> ehird, ah it needs javascript...
17:56:18 <ehird> .....................
17:56:50 <ehird> Awesome. NoScript the suck.
17:57:07 <Deewiant> Why does that make it the suck?
17:57:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:57:24 <Deewiant> "+ XSLT stylesheets are regarded as active content and blocked by
17:57:24 <Deewiant> default on untrusted documents and/or from untrusted origins
17:59:33 <Deewiant> For instance that Firefox crasher a month back would be blocked by NoScript.
18:07:47 <ehird> oerjan: the hard thing about implementing that streamio is, um, implementing it :D
18:09:06 <ehird> [GetChar,PutChar hello
18:09:07 <ehird> 'h',GetChar,PutChar h'e',GetChar,PutChar e'l',GetChar,PutChar l'l',GetChar,PutChar l'o',GetChar,PutChar o'\n',GetChar,PutChar
18:09:31 <ehird> nooga: crazy scary old haskell IO system implemented in modern haskell
18:10:11 <Deewiant> ehird: Did you get your Befunge parser working?
18:10:31 <ehird> Deewiant: Are you teasing me :P
18:10:42 <Deewiant> No, I'm asking if you even tried :-P
18:10:55 <ehird> Also I code in spurts.
18:11:58 <nooga> still i think befunge can be written as a linear program with jumps
18:12:14 <Deewiant> Write a befunge-to-unefunge compiler
18:13:45 <ehird> http://imgur.com/2Dqu.png
18:15:24 <fizzie> I did it wrong, too. :/
18:15:32 <ehird> i went first β lastly β then
18:15:34 <ehird> since lastly was biggar
18:18:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:18:33 <ehird> Deewiant: I've ripped out all bounds code to start again
18:19:05 <ehird> Deewiant: What's the most hugest befunge file existing?
18:19:11 <ehird> actually, any big text file would be appreciated
18:20:25 <fungot> AnMaster: ' that wouldn't be very nice, i'm fnord this is always done however fnord fnord: fnord those that have feathers, and bite, and those that have feathers, and bite, and those that have whiskers, and scratch.
18:20:27 <Deewiant> If you want big files I'm sure you can find some on your own
18:20:31 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Not hardly, I don't think
18:20:32 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
18:20:41 <Deewiant> Not even close by the looks of it
18:20:42 <fungot> ehird: ' the question is, what is the best way out of the difficulty is to place a red counter.
18:21:02 <Deewiant> Firefox sez that is 23 937 bytes
18:21:10 <ehird> my parser shall read hamlet
18:21:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what was the key combo to boot a mac into single user shell
18:21:15 <ehird> AnMaster: dunno. google it
18:21:50 <fizzie> Largest Project Gutenberg text file is puny 32 megabytes, titled "U.S. Copyright Renewals 1950 - 1977"; although it is possible I removed the Human Genome Project books from my local mirror. (Those are split in very many pieces anyway.)
18:21:51 <oerjan> to parse, or not to parse, that is the question
18:21:52 <ehird> hamlet isn't big enough
18:21:56 <ehird> fizzie: plz to link?
18:22:00 <Deewiant> Also it looks like half of fungot is comments, so it hardly counts
18:22:01 <fungot> Deewiant: 15. no children are fnord no fnord are fnord all rabbis are jews. some people are unhealthy.
18:22:13 <Deewiant> fungot: Yeah, fnord fnord to you too.
18:22:14 <fungot> Deewiant: " with this you make a kind of folk who have no horror of a joke.
18:22:20 <fungot> Available: agora alice* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
18:22:28 <pikhq> You could also go ahead and use more than one Project Gutenberg text.
18:22:47 <Deewiant> ehird: If mycology already overflows your stack what do you want something bigger for?
18:23:05 <fizzie> ehird: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/11800/11800-8.txt but it is the boring.
18:23:08 <ehird> Deewiant: No, mycology overflows my stack with bounds checknig
18:23:10 <ehird> which I've removed
18:23:18 <ehird> So I want to overflow it with just this
18:23:21 <ehird> to see what the issue is
18:23:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: You froze my firefox :-(
18:24:32 <fizzie> That's rather strange; it is, after all, just 32 megs of text.
18:25:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, konq decided to open it in kwrite and the progress dialog had a cancel in it
18:25:10 <fizzie> "31.19 MB" in fact according to the metadata in http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/11800
18:25:35 <fizzie> 32702551 bytes; I'm not sure where 35 megs would come from. Strange rounding.
18:25:51 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> foo <- readFile "/Users/ehird/Code/hypha/11800-8.txt"
18:26:10 <fizzie> For the powers-of-ten megabyte, yes.
18:26:12 <ehird> Deewiant: that's rather inaccurate for 0-5...
18:26:27 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> fs `seq` ()
18:26:30 <Deewiant> ehird: But it's not for 0-5, it's for 32702551.
18:26:30 <ehird> lifthrasiir: it's loading now
18:26:35 <ehird> w/ let fs = parseFungespace foo
18:26:41 <ehird> this may take a while
18:27:15 <ehird> AnMaster: dthat fileβ
18:27:18 <AnMaster> and I clicked cancel quite quickly.
18:27:30 <ehird> this was a mistake
18:27:36 <ehird> AnMaster: big 35mb one
18:27:40 <fizzie> Second-longest book would've been 20 megabytes, "The Entire Project Gutenberg Works of Mark Twain". Much more interesting to read.
18:27:51 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.gutenberg.org/files/11800/11800-8.txt you mean?
18:28:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not going to try it in cfunge.
18:28:18 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no "just parsing" option in cfunge.
18:28:20 <oerjan> ehird had a little ram
18:28:23 <ehird> haskell is memory intensive
18:28:27 <ehird> AnMaster: so comment out interp(foo)
18:28:53 <AnMaster> ehird, once I got this mac to work perfectly ;P
18:29:10 <ehird> is it your mac now :-P
18:30:08 <ehird> Deewiant: is there a non-shit portable hashtable for haskell
18:30:11 <AnMaster> ehird, but still. I like to try to get it to work.
18:30:11 <ehird> or not portable w/e
18:30:14 <fizzie> cfunge residential size went to something like 2.2 gigabytes to do that file.
18:30:22 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/hut/lktm/gutenberg$ (echo '@'; cat ./1/1/8/0/11800/11800-8.txt) > tmp.txt
18:30:22 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/hut/lktm/gutenberg$ time ~/inst/cfunge/cfunge/build/cfunge tmp.txt
18:30:24 <lament> is there non-shit anything for haskell?
18:30:26 <ehird> Deewiant: cuz maps are just too biggety
18:30:35 <ehird> my middle finger is a bottom.
18:31:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean when $user is in the group "relatives".
18:31:31 <Deewiant> ehird: Use what AnMaster does, shouldn't be hard to write an FFI for it :-P
18:31:38 <ehird> Deewiant: :||||||||||||
18:31:50 <ehird> fizzie: so got any smaller files
18:31:52 <fizzie> That's strange; /usr/bin/time's memory-usage-reporting does not seem to much work.
18:31:55 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/hut/lktm/gutenberg$ /usr/bin/time ~/inst/cfunge/cfunge/build/cfunge tmp.txt
18:31:55 <fizzie> 24.57user 1.32system 0:26.33elapsed 98%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
18:31:55 <fizzie> 0inputs+0outputs (0major+630781minor)pagefaults 0swaps
18:31:56 <ehird> fizzie: like, 1mb-3mb would be nice
18:31:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, it loaded it in 26 seconds? heh
18:32:05 <Deewiant> ehird: A 30-meg file is not exactly typical funge code anyway
18:32:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how fast does ccbi load it
18:32:44 <Deewiant> It'll take me 2 mins to download it first
18:33:25 <Deewiant> And I can't be bothered to time "just loading" properly so I'll just replace the first char with q :-P
18:33:26 <fizzie> ehird: There are quite many 1-3 MB files. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12606/12606-8.txt is 2.91 megabytes.
18:33:32 <fizzie> "The Great Speeches and Orations of Daniel Webster by Webster and Whipple"
18:33:37 <ehird> that seems more malleable
18:33:44 <ehird> I love the word malleable
18:34:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: I added a single line with @ for that time test; I guess you saw it happening there, too.
18:34:23 <AnMaster> ehird, cat /dev/urandom | tr -Cd -- '-[:lower:][:digit:]\n\\/ ;",.+*[]{}^<>@`_|:%$#!'\'"${FPRINTINSTRS}" | tr -d 'mhlior' | head -n $(( 1024 * 1024 * 3 )) >> fuzz.tmp
18:34:40 <AnMaster> that was adapted from the fuzz test script I use
18:34:44 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> butt `seq` ()
18:34:48 <AnMaster> obviously remove "${FPRINTINSTRS}
18:35:15 <AnMaster> (and the matching " at the end too yes)
18:35:34 <ehird> *Hypha.Fungespace> butt `seq` ()
18:35:34 <ehird> *** Exception: stack overflow
18:35:56 <Deewiant> cfunge eats around 2.2 gigs of RAM and takes 35.4 s user time
18:36:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: What, is my cfunge faster?
18:36:25 <Deewiant> Might be older / not optimized. Beats me.
18:36:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: Residential size was ~2.2 gigabytes here too.
18:36:36 <ehird> Deewiant: Okay, so now I'm going to strictify it.
18:36:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: No clue, really. :p
18:36:55 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not that new.
18:37:10 <AnMaster> well exact bounds does have some overhead.
18:37:34 <Deewiant> CCBI is still working on it at 900M; growing a lot slower than cfunge.
18:38:10 <fizzie> Yes, I haven't been updating this.
18:38:46 <ehird> Still overfloods in my butt.
18:39:32 <ehird> updateFungespace p v fs = fs { space = space fs `seq` Map.insertWith' const p v (space fs) }
18:40:32 <ehird> This is the oddity
18:41:30 <ehird> Maybe I'll just put $!'s EVERYWHERE.
18:42:09 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
18:42:22 <ehird> Deewiant: think maybe laziness is making my tailc alls not?
18:42:34 <ehird> go fs p@(Point x y) (z:zs) = go fs' (Point (x+1) y) zs
18:42:35 <ehird> where fs' = updateFungespace p (ord z) fs
18:42:37 <ehird> Bet that's taking stack
18:43:29 <AnMaster> ehird, is the data in it correct
18:43:39 <ehird> AnMaster: the new fungespace, not yet evaluated, was taking up space on the stack
18:43:45 <ehird> so I forced it to evaluate it before going on to the next char
18:43:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and also I had a working funge space done in less than a day in cfunge. Of course it was a lot more lines.
18:43:52 <ehird> thus throwing away the old value
18:43:55 <ehird> and making stack space constant again
18:44:01 <ehird> and I don't care :P
18:45:00 <AnMaster> ehird, for the funge space: what did you gain by using haskell? Compared to C, Lisp, Python or whatever.
18:45:09 <ehird> AnMaster: A language I like.
18:45:27 <AnMaster> ehird, will each component take this long, or is the funge-space an exception?
18:45:35 <AnMaster> and. Have you looked at hsfunge?
18:45:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Probably; the fungespace is the thing that stores a lot of data efficiently
18:45:50 <ehird> And loads very large stuff sequentially
18:45:59 <ehird> Not exactly Haskell's sweet spot
18:46:08 <ehird> funktio's site died
18:46:38 <AnMaster> I have a copy here, old one I think.
18:47:08 <AnMaster> I guess I could tar it up and upload it. Except there is NO license info. Not in the source files. Not in any separate file.
18:47:20 <AnMaster> and I never got this version of it to build.
18:48:19 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMWxreg (hsfunge.tar.lzma)
18:48:42 <ehird> too lzma; didn't unpack
18:49:07 <ehird> OS X's autoexpander doesn't do lzma; I suppose I could open a terminal :-P
18:49:28 <Deewiant> CCBI is at 13 minutes and counting, using 1.9 gigs of RAM
18:49:31 <ehird> Oh god, no modules or anything
18:49:34 <ehird> Just a clump of files
18:49:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so less memory usage but slower
18:49:48 <ehird> FINGERPRINTS ALL IN ONE FILE
18:49:51 <ehird> INTERNAL GHC STRUCTURES
18:49:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Could easily go to 3 gigs, who knows :-P
18:50:10 <ehird> AnMaster: it's awful
18:50:14 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway how does one compile it
18:50:23 <ehird> AnMaster: ghc --make Main.hs -o hsfunge
18:50:41 <AnMaster> Could not find module `Data.Time.Calendar.Julian':
18:50:41 <AnMaster> Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
18:50:48 <ehird> AnMaster: ghc --version
18:50:56 <AnMaster> The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.8.2
18:51:05 <ehird> AnMaster: upgrade. even if it doesn't matter.
18:51:14 <Deewiant> ehird: HsFunge is older than 6.10.
18:51:33 <AnMaster> ehird, err the newer ones are *hardmasked* so I'm not going to until I find out why.
18:51:34 * ehird looks at hsfunge's parseFungeSpace; has lol attack
18:51:37 <Deewiant> I'd say 'cabal install time' but he doesn't have cabal.
18:51:45 <oerjan> maybe it's so old that Data.Time.Calendar.Julian has moved since...
18:51:46 <AnMaster> that is rather different than "testing" it usually means "broken"
18:51:48 <ehird> Deewiant: he has cabal just not cabal-install
18:51:52 <ehird> AnMaster: well, ghc 6.10 isn't broken
18:52:00 <Deewiant> ehird: No, he has Cabal but not cabal.
18:52:28 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd like to remind you that gentoo have a good history of thinking they know everything about the packages and in the process breaking them or stating incorrect things about the
18:53:01 <ehird> you don't know about gentoo's terrible relation with upstreams?
18:53:22 <ehird> a few packages refuse to fix any bugs from gentoo users because gentoo fuck up their packages
18:53:38 <Deewiant> hsfunge gets through Mycology with only one bad, in EVAR.
18:53:43 <ehird> AnMaster: no, others too.
18:53:50 <AnMaster> ehird, You haven't heard both sides of the story for ion clearly.
18:53:52 <pikhq> I only know of Ion.
18:53:54 <ehird> the ion author is a whining bastard who said he'd switch to windows
18:53:58 <Deewiant> Supports all but SOCK and TURT.
18:54:02 <ehird> i don't listen to him
18:54:06 <pikhq> And the Ion developer has about the intelligence of a fly.
18:54:13 <AnMaster> ehird, what other examples then
18:54:27 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm sorry that i don't keep a personal log of bad things i've heard about gentoo.
18:54:29 <AnMaster> since we all agree ion author is the fault in that case.
18:54:33 <Deewiant> Doesn't do input from console correctly.
18:54:35 <ehird> it's not very important to me.
18:54:45 <pikhq> ehird, this is definitely a case of [citation needed].
18:54:48 <AnMaster> ehird, so it is basically rumours only.
18:54:57 <ehird> just forgotten citations
18:55:07 <pikhq> You're the first person to have mentioned this.
18:55:17 <Deewiant> CCBI is at 2.5 gigs / 19 minutes.
18:55:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed. I think he made it all up personally.
18:55:41 <Deewiant> I think the hashtable is just degenerating into a linked list.
18:55:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how the heck do you load into funge-space...
18:55:46 <ehird> yeah i make up shit about gentoo to satisfy my own perversive hate about it
18:55:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um you need to resize it then and rehash
18:56:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't resize, the array resizes itself when it feels like it
18:56:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the cfunge one is set up to do that once it gets too stuffed. Though it already start out pretty large.
18:56:37 <Deewiant> It's not even possible to tell a D hashtable what its size should be
18:56:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed. That is what it does too. I enabled the option to do that for the hash library that I use.
18:57:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm able to set mine to a rather large initial size.
18:57:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, was your cfunge 32-bit or 64-bit?
18:58:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right, changing to 32-bit cells would reduce memory usage and increase speed a lot.
18:59:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you read the input file. Or is that not a bottle neck at all?
18:59:10 <Deewiant> I'll try hsfunge once this is done
18:59:24 <Deewiant> Not sure about this version, actually
19:00:20 <Deewiant> Tango class for reading one byte at a time, buffers internally however it wants
19:02:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so stream IO I guess.
19:02:14 <Deewiant> Amusing amount of overhead for 131 megs of data :-P
19:02:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, was the original file 131 MB
19:03:35 <Deewiant> I wonder if the GC is scanning that AA...
19:04:15 <ehird> Now I need to grow bounds
19:04:18 <ehird> Exact bounds can go FUCK THEMSELVEs
19:04:26 <ehird> Deewiant: does mycology test for exact bounds
19:04:34 <ehird> put it in mycoedge
19:04:40 <ehird> i wanna pass mycology :D
19:05:08 <Deewiant> I'd rather not but I might have to to avoid it being a major pain
19:06:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you see where the overhead is
19:06:48 <ehird> % runhaskell -Wall -O2 Main
19:06:55 <ehird> DOOOOOOOOOO DOOOOOOOO
19:07:07 <ehird> % runhaskell -Wall -O2 Main
19:07:07 <ehird> Point {pX = 0, pY = 0}
19:07:08 <ehird> Point {pX = 74, pY = 48944}
19:07:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Not from the code, certainly :-P
19:07:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um. I don't know. memory profiler?
19:07:37 <Deewiant> If I profiled this it'd take 30 days
19:07:46 <fizzie> valgrind + cfunge 462 + that 31-megabyte file:
19:07:48 <fizzie> ==918== Warning: set address range perms: large range [0x43f7b030, 0x4bf7b030) (undefined)
19:07:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, what the hell does that mean
19:08:04 <fizzie> (It's still running; I'm actually more interested in the malloc statistics.)
19:08:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think it will end up mallocing a lot in cfunge_mempool.c at least
19:08:36 <fizzie> ==918== malloc/free: in use at exit: 1,813,071,464 bytes in 8,257 blocks.
19:08:37 <fizzie> ==918== malloc/free: 16,469 allocs, 8,212 frees, 2,548,451,304 bytes allocated.
19:08:39 <ehird> Hey AnMaster, Deewiant, fizzie: I parse mycology in 0.025-0.026 seconds
19:08:55 <ehird> Including loading the file and printing out the min/max bounds
19:09:27 <ehird> Point {pX = 179, pY = 791}
19:09:28 <AnMaster> ehird, what about doing that bit in cfunge on your system. Remember my computer is slower. So hard to compare.
19:09:31 <ehird> Mycology has 796 lines
19:09:34 <ehird> Maybe the > is broken
19:09:39 <fizzie> I only have four gigabytes memory here; it's barely enough for these 32-megabyte enterprise Funge programs.
19:09:51 <ehird> AnMaster: It takes something like 6ms to RUN Mycology.
19:09:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, what was the book btw.
19:10:09 <AnMaster> ehird, differently loaded system?
19:10:13 <ehird> fizzie: Feh, my enterprise befunge programs are so big I'm upgrading to 12GB of memory!
19:10:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: "U.S. Copyright Renewals 1950 - 1977"
19:10:42 <ehird> AnMaster: It's just that cfunge is ridiculously fast and my code isn't.
19:11:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Still, that's less than 10x of your running to do my parsing
19:11:29 <Deewiant> CCBI is about 6-7x as slow as cfunge when running Mycology with fingerprints off
19:11:35 <ehird> Deewiant: So correct me if I'm wrong, but all I need to have accurate fast bounds is to keep the minimum point updated, right?
19:11:48 <fizzie> Incidentally, the university people have recently updated their main shell server to something that has a ridiculous amount of power for running a couple of IRC clients; it's a dual-processor Xeon E5450 (so 8 cores) and has 64 gigabytes of RAM. (Okay, so "couple" here means "couple hundred", but anyway.)
19:11:55 <ehird> Deewiant: e.g. involving slowdown.b98
19:12:08 <Deewiant> ehird: For precise bounds you need to know both min and max.
19:12:12 <ehird> fizzie: E5450 ... what architechture thingy
19:12:17 <fizzie> total used free shared buffers cached
19:12:18 <fizzie> Mem: 64315184 30313024 34002160 0 760520 25333160
19:12:23 <ehird> Deewiant: Right, but not per line or anything to have slowdown not slow down?
19:12:23 <Deewiant> slowdown.b98 needs precise bounds.
19:12:35 <AnMaster> ehird, cfunge on mycology here: 0.034s with clean env, output to /dev/null and non-exact bounds. For exact bounds add ~0.010s. For env and output to terminal it is a bit more complex, varies more. Generally the time then is something like 0.070s or so. Depends on what terminal emulator I use though.
19:12:35 <Deewiant> ehird: No, you just need precise min/max.
19:12:46 <ehird> That's not too hard then
19:12:51 <AnMaster> of course turning off fingerprints make it even faster
19:13:02 <fizzie> I don't know anything else except what I read from /proc/cpuinfo.
19:13:11 <Deewiant> I turn off fingerprints just because cfunge doesn't support them all, so the comparison is fair.
19:13:54 <AnMaster> $ env -i PATH=/bin:/usr/bin TERM=$TERM /bin/bash --norc --noprofile -c 'time build_fast/cfunge -F mycology/mycology.b98 > /dev/null'
19:13:59 <AnMaster> there I turned off fingerprints too
19:14:12 <AnMaster> $ env -i PATH=/bin:/usr/bin TERM=$TERM /bin/bash --norc --noprofile -c 'time build_opt/cfunge -F mycology/mycology.b98 > /dev/null'
19:15:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes that is quite fair. Except I should use a profile feedback build for best results ;P
19:16:39 <ehird> Oh dear, now hypha is terribly slow.
19:17:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I made bounds growing actually work.
19:17:02 <ehird> Now it's just chugging.
19:17:05 <ehird> Maybe it's inflooping
19:17:12 <Deewiant> I could actually run out of memory before this completes :-P
19:17:12 <ehird> I think it's inflooping maybe
19:17:19 <ehird> | x < minX fs = updateFungespace p v fs{ minX = x }
19:17:19 <ehird> | x > maxX fs = updateFungespace p v fs{ maxX = x }
19:17:20 <ehird> | y < minY fs = updateFungespace p v fs{ minY = y }
19:17:22 <ehird> | y > minY fs = updateFungespace p v fs{ maxY = y }
19:17:24 <ehird> Don't see much wrong with that
19:17:29 <lifthrasiir> did you fixed the first character to q then?
19:17:49 <ehird> Yay it's instant again
19:18:02 <Deewiant> "qroject Gutenberg's Copyright Renewals"
19:18:04 <ehird> Now it thinks it has 794 lines
19:18:08 <ehird> maybe my editor is wrong
19:18:17 <ehird> Deewiant: how many fungelines does myco have?
19:18:26 <ehird> Deewiant: ok, 794 is right
19:18:27 <ehird> since I start at 0
19:18:40 <ehird> Deewiant: longest line is at col 179?
19:19:00 <ehird> Now it takes 0.026 exactly, all the time
19:19:02 <AnMaster> ehird, check with y output. It says "BAD" if it is wrong.
19:19:04 <Deewiant> ehird: You'll find it right near the start.
19:19:17 <ehird> So I've lost the 0.001s speed gain I soemtimes had :P
19:19:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Er, dude.
19:19:22 <ehird> I don't do funge yet.
19:19:28 <Deewiant> There's a comment there saying that it has to be the longest line.
19:19:29 <AnMaster> ehird, in a reference interpreter
19:19:34 <fizzie> With fungot there's extra-confusion since the actual code is loaded at (x=0,y=100) instead of the origin. So there's an offset, plus the off-by-oneness of editor line numbers.
19:19:35 <fungot> fizzie: 20. some crocodiles, when not hungry, are amiable; but some are not. " some x are not-y, and some are not.
19:19:48 <AnMaster> That the least point containing a non-space cell is ( -1 -1 )
19:19:48 <AnMaster> That the greatest point, relative to that point, is ( 180 795 )
19:19:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
19:20:06 <AnMaster> ehird, that is off by one since it wrote to -1,-1
19:20:11 <ehird> Anyway, hypha loads it in imperceptible time
19:20:17 <ehird> Fuck exact bounds for now.
19:20:18 <Deewiant> Grows by 8M every time it decides to
19:20:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how much ram do you have
19:20:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 7983M according to htop
19:20:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Do you think wrapping logic belongs in fungespace.hs
19:20:37 <ehird> Fungespace.hs that is
19:20:46 <ehird> AnMaster: 8 ramgbs
19:21:12 <lifthrasiir> well, it quickly starts thrashing and my mplayer process got stopped.
19:21:16 <Deewiant> cfunge had 613288 minor pagefaults, CCBI 875756
19:21:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that isn't such a large difference.
19:21:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I missed it but I guess around 3410-3450 since I last said 3407
19:21:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: Now run it under valgrind to get allocation statistics. :p
19:21:44 <ehird> I'm going to parse that fucking file
19:21:48 <ehird> Er wait Deewiant how much ram did it use
19:21:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and you said your cfunge was 64-bit cells though
19:22:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Right so about 1gb more than I have
19:22:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in that case the difference is larger in fact.
19:22:56 <ehird> I want to feel pitiful about my ram
19:23:00 <ehird> That's nice I don't use irssi :P
19:23:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about a 32-bit cfunge build. Since 2.2 GB is more than what I have
19:23:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well yeah, the overhead of CCBI is obviously a lot bigger.
19:23:26 <Deewiant> ehird: If your client can't, upgrade.
19:23:47 <ehird> irssi has a gui now does it? oh no it emulates a shitty one with vt terminal codes
19:23:53 <ehird> sry i don't use that kind of sw :)
19:24:14 <Deewiant> Then press pageup a few times, or whatever your client does to read lines earlier than the one you just typed
19:25:05 <AnMaster> well, not that filesystem irc one naturally. But all major ones.
19:25:21 <Deewiant> Alright, latest cfunge, 64-bit cells: 2.2 gigs / 24.4 secs
19:25:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what about 32-bit cells
19:26:26 <AnMaster> turning off exact bounds would reduce it quite a bit I suspect.
19:27:10 <AnMaster> should be compared to 2.2 GB one then indeed.
19:27:26 <ehird> fizzie: what's that ipv6 tunnel that listed ipv6 isps?
19:27:46 <fizzie> ehird: Somewhere in SixXS's pages.
19:28:08 <fizzie> http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=native
19:28:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant... Could you pastebin the output from ./cfunge -f there... Because that extra memory made no sense.
19:28:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Inexact increases memory usage by 300M
19:29:19 <Deewiant> http://www.pastie.org/private/6kyhirehdwzelidahsyda
19:29:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that increase in memory usage makes no sense. Sure you didn't confuse the two options
19:29:27 <ehird> sixxs are down >_<
19:29:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Are you sure /you/ didn't? :-P
19:29:50 <Deewiant> Maybe an #ifndef where an #ifdef should be or vice versa
19:29:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is the opposite of the results I get when I did memory profiling on cfunge here.
19:29:55 <fizzie> That sixxs url worked for me just fine.
19:30:20 <fizzie> Maybe their IPv4 side is down. :p
19:31:01 <ehird> fizzie: what's sixxs's magic ipv4 to ipv6 domain
19:31:03 <ehird> i'll view it via that :P
19:31:45 <ais523> sixxs.net = the page describing sixxs, sixxs.org = the tunnel itself
19:31:54 <fizzie> Hmm, *that* doesn't seem to answer to me.
19:32:05 <ais523> fizzie: obviously, you're on IPv6
19:32:09 <ais523> and it's an IPv6 to 4 translator
19:32:21 <fizzie> ais523: Uh, I do have IPv4 connectivity too here.
19:32:28 <ehird> http://www.sixxs.net.ipv4.sixxs.org/ works :-D
19:33:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't match my results.
19:33:43 <AnMaster> for mycology: 3.336 peak ram usage with inexact bounds. 6.522 for exact ones.
19:34:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, In other words: I'm unable to reproduce the bug and for now I recommend that you remove the build directory and try again on a clean checkout.
19:35:12 <AnMaster> if you are sure you didn't confuse it
19:35:42 <AnMaster> bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge/trunk
19:36:09 <Deewiant> They need to do way instain bzr>
19:36:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I'm too lazy to tell you to do bzr st and revert any changed files
19:36:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I assume you are doing out of tree build. In tree build is unsupported as noted in the README.
19:37:25 <AnMaster> so if you are doing that it should just be removing build directory to get it clean
19:38:25 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
19:38:37 <ehird> who kill thier branches
19:38:37 <Deewiant> Default CMake settings + Release build: 2203M / 24.42
19:38:48 <ehird> because these branches can't frigth back, it was on the rss this morning
19:38:59 <ehird> a committer in bzr who had kill his three patches
19:39:09 <ehird> my pary are with the programmers who lost his patches
19:39:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that would be with exact bounds indeed.
19:39:12 <ehird> i am truly sorry for your lots
19:39:23 <Deewiant> Toggled EXACT_BOUNDS to OFF: 2532M / 23.10
19:39:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do the difference go the same way for mycology?
19:40:01 <Deewiant> How can I get mem usage for something that runs so fast?
19:40:15 <Deewiant> top only samples once per second or whatever
19:40:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, valgrind --tool=massif and do ms_print on the generated file
19:40:32 <Deewiant> valgrind changes program behaviour
19:40:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about /usr/bin/time
19:41:13 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:41:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, man page says it can with a different format string
19:43:05 <ehird> it started to look at it but then it disappeared
19:43:08 <ehird> THE HORRORS OF FAST PROGRAMS
19:43:17 <Deewiant> Probably not available on Linux.
19:43:19 <ehird> Okay so I have a fungespace YAY AM HAPPY!!
19:43:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried on a slow program too, so irrelevant
19:43:23 <fizzie> There is a Ubuntu bug report about it.
19:43:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well that leaves valgrind
19:43:29 <ehird> Now, I need to write an Interpreter data structure.
19:43:45 <fizzie> "it" being time and resource usage showing zero.
19:44:03 <fizzie> I'm sure it's doable on Linux, the /usr/bin/time people just haven't bothered.
19:44:23 <lifthrasiir> 15 minutes later, pyfunge read 80% of the file and became very slow
19:44:37 <Deewiant> AnMaster: With valgrind it's 3442744 for inexact bounds and 6785328 for exact (second column, tail -n1)
19:44:49 <ehird> Deewiant: So is the stack stack just int** then?
19:44:51 <Deewiant> So no, it doesn't go the same way as it apparently does
19:45:10 <Deewiant> ehird: Isn't it more fun to figure this kind of stuff out yourself? :-P
19:45:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well... you said top only updated slowly right?
19:45:25 <Deewiant> ehird: Besides, you're Haskell so it's Stack (Stack Int)
19:45:25 <ehird> Deewiant: Sure, I just don't like implementing basic concepts completely incorrectly
19:45:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe both use more and you managed to catch then in an odd way
19:45:34 <lifthrasiir> 57651 Python 0.6% 13:04.08 1 14 3183 1319M+ 188K 1311M+ 1462M
19:45:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, where stack = mutable array in IO, of course.
19:45:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I doubt it, for such a big difference
19:45:50 <ehird> Well. Can you get efficient arrays outside of IO in hs?
19:45:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: Just valgrindalyze the 31-megabyte file; it didn't take more than a minute or so to run it.
19:46:06 <ehird> Like, when you throw away the old value it turns into just [x] = y
19:46:23 <Deewiant> If it's pure it copies every time since it has to be, y'know, pure.
19:46:32 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I didn't use any --tool=massif thing.)
19:47:08 <ehird> Deewiant: no, ghc optimizes pure shit
19:47:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, replace that q with 'a,a,><
19:47:20 <ehird> if you copy & change a pure data structure and throw away the old one it optimizes it to a mutation
19:47:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that should help making sure the measurement is stable
19:47:37 <ehird> Deewiant: that's what i'm asking you
19:49:16 <Deewiant> ==30334== malloc/free: in use at exit: 2,140,095,696 bytes in 8,467 blocks.
19:50:02 <Deewiant> And ==30334== malloc/free: 16,941 allocs, 8,474 frees, 2,880,720,576 bytes allocated.
19:50:15 <Deewiant> fizzie: And you tricked me, it took over 2 mins.
19:50:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the latter being inexact ones?
19:50:40 <ehird> Deewiant: Think I should use a slowarray or an IOarray?
19:50:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, they're from the same run.
19:50:49 <lifthrasiir> heck, it takes a minute per 1000 lines and i finally get tired of it.
19:50:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what about inexact ones then
19:50:59 <lifthrasiir> ^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^\Quit
19:51:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Did you miss "took over 2 mins"?
19:51:30 <Deewiant> ==30687== malloc/free: in use at exit: 2,081,686,560 bytes in 8,203 blocks.
19:51:30 <Deewiant> ==30687== malloc/free: 16,415 allocs, 8,212 frees, 2,817,066,400 bytes allocated.
19:51:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is less for inexact
19:52:02 <fizzie> lifthrasiir: There's a three-megabyte file mentioned later.
19:52:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so where did you get that reverse behaviour from.
19:52:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I can't reproduce it locally.
19:52:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, I gues it is a htop bug or something.
19:52:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, interesting that exact bounds doesn't have a large memory overhead.
19:52:40 <pikhq> GAH! WHY DOES ALSA HATE ME?
19:52:48 <pikhq> cat /proc/asound/cards
19:52:51 <pikhq> --- no soundcards ---
19:53:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: RES = "The non-swapped physical memory a task has used" according to man top.
19:53:13 * pikhq points at lspci, then points at lsmod, then points at his alsa configuration...
19:53:14 <fizzie> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12606/12606-8.txt "The Great Speeches and Orations of Daniel Webster by Webster and Whipple" is 2.91 megabytes.
19:53:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, load the correct kernel driver then.
19:53:36 <Deewiant> Beats me, maybe it's just the wrong value to be looking at.
19:53:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, unless cfunge was swapping?
19:54:08 <Deewiant> Well actually I have 256M but it's pretty much never in use.
19:54:25 <Deewiant> 14 of it is in use currently, probably due to these enterprisey funge apps.
19:54:43 <pikhq> Though I've not touched it at all.
19:54:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, cat: /etc/asound.conf: No such file or directory
19:55:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, you use gentoo right? What package installed it
19:55:28 <pikhq> Oh, installed asound.conf?
19:55:44 <pikhq> That's not installed by a package; that's only used if you want a custom ALSA configuration.
19:55:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah, why do you want that then!
19:55:58 <pikhq> /usr/share/alsa/alsa.conf contains the default config file, which loads /etc/asound.conf.
19:56:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, is your /etc/asound.conf empty then?
19:56:53 <AnMaster> if not try temporarily removing it?
19:57:02 <pikhq> That's one thing I tried.
19:57:03 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:57:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, what did you do before it stopped working
19:57:21 <lifthrasiir> rsize=185M, vsize=232M, but it takes much after reading all the file... hmm.
19:57:28 <pikhq> Upgrade my kernel, using the same config as my previous kernel.
19:57:36 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, is that the 32-mb file in pyfunge?
19:57:52 -!- olsner has joined.
19:57:58 <lifthrasiir> no, 32MB file got very slow and i forced to terminate it.
19:58:49 <lifthrasiir> since i have less than 1GB of working, not-thrashing-proof memory it became very slow
19:58:50 * pikhq looks at his kernel config some more
19:58:56 <ehird> it's only 32 mb, wimps!
19:59:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
19:59:24 <lifthrasiir> ehird: remember that python stores every integer as 20-byte-or-so struct in the heap... >_<
19:59:34 <ehird> wait python boxes integers?
19:59:40 <ehird> lol@python' sucking
20:00:03 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, err doesn't it only for large ones
20:00:05 <ehird> lifthrasiir: did guido say that boxed integers were too magical or confusing or something
20:00:14 <lifthrasiir> though python 2 caches some small integers
20:00:26 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, are you using 3.x
20:00:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Nobody uses 3.
20:00:40 <AnMaster> ehird, python 2.x has small and large integers.
20:00:48 <lifthrasiir> and that some small integers are between -5 and 100, iirc.
20:00:52 <ehird> Small integers are just cached in an array.
20:01:01 <ehird> lifthrasiir: 100 is enough for everyone
20:01:07 <lifthrasiir> and what the hell this program stucks after reading fungespace? curious.
20:01:38 <Deewiant> I don't know why but I found that particular sequence of words hilarious
20:01:43 <Deewiant> "what the hell this program stucks"
20:02:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, you're such a stucker, you would.
20:02:09 <AnMaster> "is stuck" "freezes", but I never heard "stucks" as a verb
20:02:18 <ehird> -- what the hell this program stucks
20:02:21 <Deewiant> fizzie: That I found more groan-inducing than anything else.
20:02:35 <lifthrasiir> maybe i forgot english grammar for a moment.
20:02:38 <ehird> stucken: a program that stucks
20:02:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's not valid English if you're wondering about that.
20:02:59 <ehird> ais523: does your program stucks?
20:03:07 <fizzie> Sticka, stickur, stuckade, har stΓΆckit.
20:03:23 <ehird> "They surgically removed 2 feet of colon - I now have a ;"
20:03:34 <fizzie> The same thing in Swedish in an alternate dimension.
20:04:11 <AnMaster> sv:"att sticka" is en:"to knit"
20:04:25 <lifthrasiir> i have had enough fun with torturing pyfunge; now i have to do some real work.
20:04:37 <AnMaster> sv:"att sticka" is en:"to sting" (for example, a bee stinging or such)
20:04:53 <AnMaster> and then there is the slang meaning
20:05:15 <AnMaster> which is "leave quickly", not the same as "fleeing" exactly
20:06:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: Is it again overloaded so that it has a different declension for different meanings? Like "sticka, stickar, stickade, stickat" for the first and "sticka, sticker, stack, stuckit" for the other, or something.
20:07:10 <fizzie> Right. I don't understand why you people keep doing that.
20:07:40 <ais523> AnMaster: sort of leaving in a hurry?
20:08:21 <AnMaster> but there are different side-meanings in it I think.
20:08:30 <AnMaster> but then I may just be ignorant of them in English
20:08:40 <AnMaster> and I can't translate those "side-meanings" really
20:09:58 <AnMaster> ais523, lets say someone just pulled(right word?) a practical joke on you, then they might leave in a hurry before they have to flee I guess. This word would work in that situation. For example.
20:10:16 <AnMaster> ais523, flee has a lot more "panic" feeling over it.
20:10:28 <ehird> AnMaster: 23 skidoo? XD
20:10:35 <ehird> 23 skidoo (sometimes 23 skiddoo) is an American slang phrase popularized in the early twentieth century, first appearing before World War I and becoming popular in the Roaring Twenties. It generally refers to leaving quickly, being forced to leave quickly by someone else or taking advantage of a propitious opportunity to leave, that is, "getting [out] while the getting's good." The exact origin of the phrase is uncertain.
20:11:02 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, except it is wider than that
20:14:39 <AnMaster> ehird, hey, you might want to do: sudo nvram boot-args="-s"
20:14:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Starts in single user mode every time?
20:15:14 <ehird> I don't even know how to get the GUI up from there
20:17:47 <pikhq> Hmm. 'Twould seem that my SB Live! has stopped working.
20:18:01 <pikhq> And for some reason, the driver for my onboard audio didn't load.
20:18:38 <fizzie> "exit" from the single-user shell continues the normal bootup, I think.
20:21:27 <ehird> pikhq: Open up the case and examine?
20:21:38 <pikhq> ehird: I'll reseat it next time I reboot.
20:22:00 <ehird> They should make pencil sharpeners that use high-RPM fans or something, so you don't have to do any work.
20:22:49 <ehird> ais523: awesome, I want one
20:22:57 <ehird> for the sheer uselossity!
20:23:06 <ais523> I've seen them used in businesses before
20:23:25 <fizzie> I had an electronic pencil-sharpener back in third grade, actually. Very neat. I wonder what happened to it.
20:23:38 <fizzie> Maybe "electric" is more correct.
20:24:03 <fizzie> I seem to remember it being rather awfully noisy.
20:24:04 <ehird> clearly we need a bluetooth pencil sharpener
20:24:16 <ehird> (I was going to say USB but decided to jump to the next awesome step)
20:24:18 <ais523> no, a FreeBSD pencil sharpener
20:24:25 <ehird> ais523: a bluetooth pencil sharpener that runs freebsd
20:24:35 <ehird> netbsd is the toaster one
20:24:36 <ais523> and yes, I meant netbsd
20:25:07 <ehird> ais523: but fans are bad
20:25:14 <ehird> we need a passively cutting pencil sharpener
20:25:44 <fizzie> It could use some sort of controlled acid thing.
20:26:43 <ehird> hyper fan-like cutting lasers
20:27:10 <fizzie> I sense many "my pencil's on fire!" yells in the future of this channel.
20:27:25 <ehird> I knew someone who set their "pencil" on fire.
20:27:39 <ais523> well, burning the pencil into a point would be one way to sharpen it
20:27:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> I don't even know how to get the GUI up from there <-- SystemStarter
20:27:51 <AnMaster> ehird, but why do you want that
20:28:21 <ais523> ehird: also, have you not considered simply undoing the command that forced it into single user mode?
20:28:37 <ehird> i wish intel macs used openfirmware
20:28:42 <ais523> AnMaster: anyway, single user mode is a bad idea:
20:28:51 <ehird> yes, single user mode is a bad idea in general
20:28:56 <ais523> first, that means you do everything as root, which is insecure
20:29:13 <ais523> and second, single user means you can't use the user system for sandboxing
20:29:25 <ehird> ais523: you are kidding, right?
20:29:30 <ehird> you do know he was joking, right?
20:29:40 <ais523> I'm never sure, with AnMaster
20:30:27 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway there are uses for single user mode. Accurate profiling results for example.
20:30:39 <AnMaster> quite a pain to do that though
20:30:40 <ehird> On the subject of breaking "pencils": http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/the-redhat-package-mangler
20:30:53 <ais523> using single user mode for profiling isn't something I even thought of
20:31:04 <ais523> why not just use a per-application profile timer?
20:31:10 <AnMaster> <ais523> and second, single user means you can't use the user system for sandboxing
20:31:31 <ais523> yes, but then you're stuck as that user and can't be root as well
20:31:40 <ais523> or does single user mode have multiple terminals?
20:31:58 <ehird> ais523: sudo -s, beotch
20:31:59 <AnMaster> ais523, per-application is inaccurate if you are doing IO stuff. Which causes stuff to happen in kernel.
20:32:04 <ehird> I must be the only person who likes ELER
20:32:19 <ehird> everybody loves eric raymond
20:32:22 <ehird> eric s raymond that is
20:32:33 <ehird> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond
20:32:48 <ehird> (Here's one I made [two minutes] earlier: 20:30 ehird: On the subject of breaking "pencils": http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/the-redhat-package-mangler )
20:33:03 <ehird> (Everybody Loves Eric Raymond is a web comic depicting the very real lives of Richard Stallman, Eric Raymond and Linus Torvalds as accurately as comedically possible.
20:33:04 <ehird> Their real lives, which include living together in a house, with dynamic dimensions, without their wives or girlfriends. Also, they always wear the same clothes. And donβt move their eyes much.)
20:33:17 <AnMaster> ehird, hm seems SystemStarter is not for modern OS X
20:33:26 <ehird> AnMaster: it may be some launchd stuff
20:33:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that is what I meant.
20:36:55 <AnMaster> ehird, single user mode has two processes: launchd and shell
20:37:14 <ehird> launchd = init + cron + anacron + at + ...
20:37:43 <ehird> AnMaster: no, orthogonal
20:38:18 <ehird> No manual entry for init
20:39:51 <ehird> AnMaster: have you ever heard of a cat called Public Beta?
20:41:15 <Deewiant> Encountered: 91516 instructions
20:41:18 <Deewiant> Executed: 82692 standard instructions
20:41:20 <Deewiant> Executed: 161 fingerprint instructions
20:41:29 <ehird> Deewiant: what's the io array again
20:41:30 <Deewiant> Travelled to the future: 12 IPs
20:42:02 <AnMaster> ehird, mac os x by default has a serial console set up
20:42:10 <ehird> Deewiant: what's it called :P
20:42:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was going wow over serial console
20:42:26 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Mac_OS_X_10.1_Puma_screenshot.png β i wish current os x looked like this
20:42:53 <ehird> Deewiant: ~/.cabal/share/doc vs /usr/local/gdfgdfg/dfgdfgdfg/dfgdfgdfg :-
20:46:09 <ehird> Deewiant: /usr/local/share/doc/ghc/libraries/index.html
20:47:27 <fizzie> My /usr/share/doc seems to weigh 600 megabytes; that's quite heavy.
20:48:14 <fizzie> texlive-latex-extra-doc by itself is 100 megabytes; I wanted to look at a single manual of a single package, and, well...
20:48:26 <AnMaster> <fizzie> My /usr/share/doc seems to weigh 600 megabytes; that's quite heavy. <-- 398 MB here
20:48:33 <Deewiant> fizzie: I just use CTAN for that :-P
20:48:46 <ehird> 24M/usr/local/share/doc
20:48:47 <ehird> 65M/opt/local/share/doc
20:48:48 <fizzie> Yes, Google is what I usually use as well.
20:49:42 <AnMaster> before I said that there was one nice thing about mac hardware
20:50:03 <AnMaster> the magnetic power connector is very nice too
20:50:12 <AnMaster> I guess it is only found on laptops
20:50:28 <fizzie> My iBook G4 is too old to have that piece of niftitude. :/
20:50:51 <ehird> The power cable on my iMac is sort of welded in, I couldn't get it out if I wanted to.
20:50:59 <ehird> Without performing surgery on it. Which I might do when I get the new box.
20:51:05 <ehird> There's always shiny hardware to raid! Not RAID.
20:51:16 <AnMaster> ehird, ok found how to boot correctly from single user mode:
20:51:59 <ehird> Deewiant: UVector is sufficiently smart, apparently. Hoorj
20:52:42 <Deewiant> You can't resize it purely IIRC
20:53:55 <ais523> ooh, critical zero-day bug for adobe acrobat reader
20:54:10 <ais523> cross-platform, and can be fixed by disabling javascript
20:56:30 <Deewiant> I'm not sure, I could be wrong
20:56:38 <ehird> Deewiant: If you can resize them in IO, I'll just unsafePerformIO 'er up
20:56:46 <ehird> I should just use an io array really
21:00:41 <Deewiant> Performed: 263675 Funge-Space lookups
21:00:41 <Deewiant> Performed: 443 Funge-Space assignments
21:00:55 <Deewiant> (Mycology without fingerprints)
21:01:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: 22:18:36 [Finnish time] <fizzie> "exit" from the single-user shell continues the normal bootup, I think.
21:21:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, except bluetooth fails to start then :D
21:22:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you added that logging code just now?
21:23:48 <AnMaster> btw have I mentioned that disable tracing at compile time make no difference on my sempron but makes a noticeable difference on my old pentium3.
21:24:18 <AnMaster> I guess branch prediction is not very good on the p3
21:27:34 <Deewiant> No, I don't think you've mentioned that
21:49:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I just built cfunge as an universal binary.
21:50:10 <AnMaster> runs on intel at least. my old mac is too old to test it (pre-os x)
21:50:34 <AnMaster> it can dual compile for powerpc and m68k though (fat binary)
21:54:21 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:03:03 <kerlo> I imagine there are many games based on Conway's Life.
22:03:24 <kerlo> "Game" meaning "game that people play against each other".
22:04:21 <kerlo> One possible mechanic: each player starts with an R-pentomino; every turn, one player kills one of their own pieces, then the Life rules are applied.
22:04:38 <kerlo> When a cell is born, it receives the color shared by two of its parents.
22:05:20 <kerlo> R-pentomino. This pattern:
22:05:33 <AnMaster> ok... so why the odd name "pentomino"
22:07:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: pent- from Greek "five", -omino from domino.
22:10:39 * kerlo ponders what extensions should be made to a neural net to make it decent at his Conway's Life game
22:11:37 <kerlo> Say, another Life game is the "intelligent cell" game.
22:12:09 <kerlo> Which can be found at the celebrated eminently famous clickmazes.com.
22:14:42 <ehird> 20:49 AnMaster: ehird, I just built cfunge as an universal binary.
22:15:13 <ehird> i mean, ppc macs are practically dead now
22:15:17 <ehird> so it's generally a waste of space
22:15:41 <ehird> GregorR moved vps hosts again :D
22:15:41 <AnMaster> my old first generation ibook still works
22:15:50 <ehird> AnMaster: 10.6 may not support ppc macs
22:16:00 <ehird> And 'cuz I'm moving to the same host and they're cheap and look good.
22:16:10 <ehird> AnMaster: That's dead. Mac users = early adopters.
22:16:12 <AnMaster> why does everyone have to upgrade
22:17:37 <Deewiant> Tail recursion: http://g.imagehost.org/0632/snake.jpg
22:18:26 <ehird> AnMaster: that ipv6 vps you used was w/ bytemark hosting right
22:18:36 <ehird> Deewiant: Have you read your SICP today?
22:19:12 <ehird> AnMaster: what was it with
22:19:32 <AnMaster> ehird, it was with a friend who has a dedi at softlayer
22:20:00 <ehird> Bytemark seems to load quite fast from the uk (since they're a uk company) and do ipv6, so that's the main competitor to prgmr for me atm
22:20:08 <AnMaster> ehird, so how far do you get in mycology now
22:20:22 <ehird> AnMaster: I was brbβ until a few seconds ago.
22:20:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't get any BADs, though ;-)
22:21:34 <ehird> Deewiant: http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9440/snakeonlysf4.png
22:23:24 <fizzie> My iBook! You're saying it's dead! You monster!
22:25:53 <ehird> stackStack :: [[Int]]
22:25:57 <ehird> In which I cave in.
22:27:16 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:27:30 <ehird> Deewiant: You're right though, I doubt accessing the 458743957345th element of the stack is all too common
22:32:09 <ehird> In this document, short stacks are generally notated left to right to mean bottom to top. The leftmost values listed in the documentation are the bottommost and the first to be pushed onto the stack. Long stacks are notated top to bottom, to mean precisely that, top to bottom..
22:32:11 <ehird> I am very confused.
22:32:50 <ehird> Deewiant: Is it saying that depending on the size of the stack it reverses its terminology?!
22:32:52 <ehird> β½β½β½β½β½β½
22:33:13 <Deewiant> No, it's saying that depending on the size of the stack it's horizontal/vertical
22:34:58 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe you should learn to code befunge before you write an interpreter ;P
22:35:09 <AnMaster> writing an interpreter is a good way to learn it!
22:35:18 <ehird> Nothing to do with coding it, just the spec is worded oddly
22:35:31 <Deewiant> I wrote an interpreter for DOBELA and still can't anything besides hello worlds in it
22:35:42 <ehird> You accidentally the program.
22:35:51 <ehird> Deewiant: and you had problems with even hello world no? :P
22:36:09 <Deewiant> Implementing it was hard because the specs sucked :-P
22:36:21 <ehird> data Interpreter =
22:36:22 <ehird> stackStack :: [[Int]],
22:36:30 <ehird> Lah di di daaaaaah
22:37:24 <Deewiant> It /is/ optional, you don't have to do it
22:37:38 <ehird> Deewiant: I plan on implementing all MKRY fingerprints.
22:37:55 <ehird> In fact, all fingerprints possible.
22:38:24 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> I wrote an interpreter for DOBELA and still can't anything besides hello worlds in it <-- yes. But befunge is a rather different beast.
22:38:36 <ehird> stackStack :: [[Int]],
22:38:37 <ehird> instructionPointers :: [InstructionPointer]
22:38:43 <ehird> InstructionPointer {
22:38:45 <AnMaster> ehird, so once ATHR is finished you will implement it
22:38:45 <ehird> location :: Point,
22:38:57 <ehird> I need a fungespace too
22:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, be aware of then (for nesting purposes, not for "is best"): MVRS > ATHR > threads by t
22:39:43 <ehird> AnMaster: I can rework this code later.
22:39:44 <AnMaster> for "is best" you clearly have ATHR > t > MVRS
22:39:47 <ehird> Haskell's nice like that
22:39:56 <AnMaster> ehird, sure you can for most languages.
22:40:01 <Deewiant> MVRS's official incarnation is kind of crappy, yeah
22:40:02 <ehird> stackstack is initially [[]] right?
22:40:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you are violating GPL3!
22:40:19 <Deewiant> ehird: No, it's repeat (repeat 0)
22:40:23 <AnMaster> since that is what it looks like in efunge
22:40:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
22:40:39 <ehird> Deewiant: Isn't there a way to tell if the stack's empty?
22:40:55 <Deewiant> Yes, there is, which is why it can't be that.
22:40:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I doubt that is enough code for it to be a violation though. To general
22:40:58 <ehird> http://pastie.org/463114.txt?key=uaxd3mxfem6b43an62w47a Hum di dum
22:41:10 <Deewiant> funktio complained about not being to able to initialize to (repeat 0) because of that.
22:41:14 <AnMaster> ehird, btw n clears all item on the TOSS
22:41:19 <ehird> Functional bastard :D
22:41:34 <ehird> "There are no multicharacter instructions in Funge."
22:41:40 <ehird> Tell that to XHELLOZ
22:42:05 <AnMaster> ehird, echnically efunge has support for typed memory btw. I have plans to make a fingerprint that requires typed funge space.
22:42:22 <AnMaster> I don't plan to reveal for what yet.
22:42:39 <Deewiant> Will you implement it in cfunge?
22:42:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in efunge, not in cfunge.
22:43:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what answer did you expect ;P
22:43:18 <ehird> I wonder if I should use a map of instructions
22:43:35 <AnMaster> ehird, if you plan to implement IMAP...
22:43:40 <Deewiant> Map makes it easier to do some things
22:43:44 <ehird> AnMaster: I. Can. Restructure :-P
22:43:49 <ehird> But yeah, I'll go for a map.
22:44:19 <AnMaster> ehird, so did you get any good ideas from hsfunge
22:44:28 <ehird> No, I'm not reading it for licensing concerns ;)
22:44:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you were, saying "OMG" and such
22:45:00 <ehird> Yes, NIH. As in I'd like to learn something,.
22:45:20 <ehird> "Egypt orders slaughter of all pigs over swine flu"
22:45:30 <ehird> Let's order the slaughter of all humans over swine flu
22:45:30 <AnMaster> ehird, you will have a hard time implementing most RCS fingerprints then
22:46:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I've always had the gift of being able to interpret gibbering retards, so I don't think I'll have a problem. MKRY isn't all that vague at all IMO.
22:46:16 <ehird> (Note: β does not imply I think MKRY is a gibbering retard)
22:46:20 <AnMaster> ehird, not that fingerprint no
22:46:21 <Deewiant> ehird: It's not so much interpretation as lack of information.
22:46:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but it seems easy to deduce intent from what i've read
22:46:42 <Deewiant> There are N different ways to do something and you just have to know the intended one.
22:47:13 <ehird> Deewiant: I can handle *some* ambiguity...
22:47:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, me too in that case.
22:47:33 <AnMaster> and TURT is insanely badly speced
22:47:43 <AnMaster> it doesn't even say if 0 degrees is up or down
22:47:59 <Deewiant> H 'Set Heading' (angle in degrees, relative to 0deg, east)
22:48:12 <ehird> Deewiant: It's from the guy who brought you funge-108
22:48:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: TURT is from Cat's Eye.
22:48:31 <ehird> he probably thinks C is underspecced
22:48:36 -!- Quazie has changed nick to comex.
22:48:42 <AnMaster> # L 'Turn Left' (angle in degrees)
22:48:42 <AnMaster> # R 'Turn Right' (angle in degrees)
22:49:02 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, the idea of writing a disambiguated Funge isn't bad in theory since the spec does kinda suck in some places.
22:49:09 <ehird> Deewiant: It's fun.
22:49:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah but which way do the bot start
22:49:20 <Deewiant> In practice I don't think it's smart since Funge is small.
22:49:33 <ehird> Deewiant: I mean, it's fun because it's esoteric and this kind of shit is the only reason I'm implementing it.
22:49:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So don't rely on it.
22:50:11 <ehird> direction = error "Demons fly out of your window, washing the windows API"
22:50:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and there are various other issues are we both know
22:51:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and it is hard to implement correctly
22:51:19 <Deewiant> I don't think TURT has any important spec issues.
22:52:12 <Deewiant> Some things could be explicit but implicitness doesn't matter, it can't be misinterpreted IMO.
22:55:44 <ehird> "the Funge interpreter should at least provide an option for informing the user that it was told to execute an instruction that isn't implemented"
22:55:55 <ehird> What code should be used? _
22:56:03 <ehird> It's just like the good old days in '93!
22:56:52 <AnMaster> you can't implement it without looking at an existing implementation.
22:56:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: However, at least the Cat's Eye fingerprints say that they're under development.
22:57:03 <Deewiant> As in, you're not really supposed to implement them. :-P
22:57:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, but nothing happen.
22:57:29 <AnMaster> http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/TOYS.html
22:57:59 <AnMaster> B ('pair of shoes') pops two cells off the stack and pushes the result of a "butterfly" bit operation.
22:58:00 <Deewiant> The only thing that can't be done is the butterfly op.
22:58:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as I just said yes ;P
22:58:13 <Deewiant> And actually, even that I did find by googling.
22:58:16 <ehird> Deewiant: how do you implement that one?
22:58:19 <Deewiant> But it's so obscure that I didn't trust it.
22:58:31 <Deewiant> Maybe because it's the only one I found ;-P
22:58:51 <ehird> If I read it the license gnomes will infect my heart.
22:59:11 <AnMaster> ehird, err ccbi -p is abstract algorithm info
22:59:26 <ehird> Does ccbi2 have it
22:59:32 <AnMaster> tar.us.to[0: 88.114.245.125]: errno=Connection refused
22:59:32 <AnMaster> fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection refused)
22:59:45 <ehird> AnMaster: License. Gnomes.
22:59:57 <ehird> AnMaster: ccbi is broken on my system
22:59:59 <ehird> because ldc sucks.
23:00:12 <Deewiant> ehird: Didn't you pull the non-regex one?
23:00:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you put it up to let me pull last
23:00:37 <ehird> Deewiant: Until I execute a program, IIRC
23:00:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Which one do you have?
23:00:46 <Deewiant> There is no 'last', it's in 10 or so branches currently
23:00:55 <Deewiant> ehird: ccbi -p doesn't execute a program!
23:00:58 <ehird> % bin/ccbi ~/Downloads/mycology/mycology.b98 [HANG]
23:01:18 <ehird> But why is it broken
23:01:33 <Deewiant> I don't know, I can't see into the mind of your computer.
23:01:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I know for sure you can serve git from plain http. I can accept the lower speed.
23:01:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: git show, for instance
23:02:02 <AnMaster> commit 732e49a3401df2a1bd36221f8d767e00f8553a85
23:02:02 <AnMaster> Author: Matti Niemenmaa <matti.niemenmaa+git@iki.fi>
23:02:02 <AnMaster> Date: Mon Apr 27 20:05:15 2009 +0300
23:02:15 <ehird> 'B' pops y, then x, and pushes x+y, then x-y. This may or may not be the
23:02:16 <ehird> the "butterfly bit operation" requested.
23:02:17 <Deewiant> Yes, well, the first line would've been enough.
23:02:20 <ehird> How did you get that defn?
23:02:44 <Deewiant> Which is when I decided that it's probably right
23:02:44 <ehird> Deewiant: It doesn't seem very...well...bit operationy
23:03:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still connection refused.
23:03:38 <ehird> "FRTH" 0x46525448 Some common forth [sic] commands
23:03:51 <ehird> Deewiant: It's Forth.
23:04:01 <ehird> When being pedantic it helps to be right.
23:04:02 <Deewiant> ehird: It's not forth, though.
23:04:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Anyway! Why is it still timeout
23:04:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Chuck Moore calls it Forth. He is right.
23:04:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Because you haven't told me how I export the branch you want
23:05:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I said what git show showed
23:05:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm happy to follow the same branch
23:05:15 <Deewiant> But I don't know how to export only the main branch.
23:05:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well. Do you think I do
23:05:31 <Deewiant> If I give you everything you'll ask me how to switch branches etc. and I don't want to be your Git tutorial.
23:05:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I actually done that before
23:05:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, but if you really want it it's your onus to figure it out, not mine.
23:06:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, won't it default to the main one by default
23:06:11 <Deewiant> Or at least, you shouldn't ping me every few minutes.
23:06:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: There is no "main" one in Git.
23:06:30 <ehird> Deewiant: What about >1 per sec
23:06:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, surely you have a trunk
23:06:33 <Deewiant> The default one is just called "master".
23:06:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, but Git doesn't know that.
23:06:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so won't I track master by default?
23:06:52 <ehird> Deewiant: Look at your irc server console
23:07:16 <ehird> Deewiant: I /ping'd you :P
23:07:20 <fizzie> (x, y) β (x+y, x-y) is the only butterfly operation I am aware of, too; the one used in FFT. I admit the "bit" word is a bit distracting there.
23:07:46 <AnMaster> since TOYS is inspired by INTERCAL
23:07:52 <ehird> fizzie: Sqqms rqght. Hqy, Q'm vqwqllqss qgqqn!
23:08:04 <AnMaster> ais523, does "butterfly bit operation" mean anything in intercal?
23:08:33 <ais523> it has a meaning in fast fourier transforms
23:08:40 <ais523> which is the one RC/Funge tries to implement
23:08:51 <AnMaster> ais523, the "bit" bit doesn't make sense there though
23:08:51 <ehird> Deewiant: What does FBBI do?
23:09:00 <Deewiant> ehird: FBBI implements only ROMA and NULL.
23:09:05 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc FBBI doesn't implement TOYS
23:09:23 <ehird> what's null? nop fingerprint?
23:09:50 <AnMaster> ehird, NULL and ROMA are trivial
23:10:43 <ehird> GOAL: Execute sanity.bf
23:11:03 <ehird> 0-0, space, ., # and @ must be implemented.
23:12:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:12:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Welp, I just made a tmpdir into which I pushed, that might've worked.
23:12:51 <fizzie> NULL is not exactly "nop" in the sense that it has observable effects: it does add a r-like instruction for all [A-Z]; I used it in fungot for swapping things with FING before replacing the parts that needed that with Z instead of X.
23:12:52 <fungot> fizzie: ' i don't know what. what's the good of having it all over again?' she said to herself, that she mightn't take his breath away: but, when he had satisfied himself that the flowers are always asleep.'
23:13:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://pastebin.ca/1407889
23:13:22 <Deewiant> fizzie: It adds nop to everything, which justifies calling it a nop fingerprint, I guess.
23:13:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Please read the docs.
23:13:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: It adds a reflect; that's a strange thing to call a "nop". Well, I guess it depends on your viewpoint.
23:13:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: RTFMessage then if you need it RTFManual.
23:13:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Then you don't get ccbi2.
23:13:56 <fizzie> Deewiant: But the official "nop" is not a reflect.
23:14:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so I do a clean checkout Right? Easier.
23:14:11 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:14:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Congrats; you just avoided learning something.
23:14:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Sorry, I killed the server.
23:14:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't plan to learn git
23:14:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tell me when you restarted it
23:15:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: Originally I actually thought it added a nop and not a reflection. A no-longer-existent version of Mycology expected that
23:15:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are just silly now
23:16:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You don't think it's worth it to read 5 lines of error message and figure it out for yourself?
23:16:32 <ehird> Deewiant: It would be giving in to the enemy (git)
23:16:51 <ehird> Deewiant: Then he shall have to do without.
23:17:05 -!- coppro has joined.
23:17:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You only need to read the first 5.
23:17:10 <ehird> Indeed, a libc is but a speck compared to the horrors of learning one command of git.
23:17:35 <AnMaster> try again (e.g. 'git pull <repository> <refspec>').
23:17:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Did you lose your English lobe overnight?
23:18:06 <ehird> Deewiant: does each IP have its own stack of instruction maps?
23:18:08 <Deewiant> Clearly you're on a different branch than the remote you pulled from.
23:18:15 <Deewiant> Since it asks which branch to merge with.
23:18:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok. I'm used to separate directories like for svn. And bzr.
23:18:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so I don't get what this error mean. Nor how to correct it.
23:18:45 <ehird> "instructionMapStack". What an unwieldy name.
23:19:06 <AnMaster> ehird, opcode_stack in cfunge.
23:19:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and which one do I want to answer here
23:19:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's saying that you're on a different branch and it wants to know what branch to merge with.
23:19:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I don't know which one you recommend.
23:19:42 <ehird> Hmm, maybe a stack is bad, if you load 4 fprints it'll take 4 "tail"s to get to a core instruction.
23:20:21 <Deewiant> Not sure if that's correct, but that's what I'd try first.
23:20:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so git pull git://tar.us.to/ HEAD
23:20:53 <Deewiant> It's not like it'll rm -rf $HOME if you do it wrong.
23:20:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seems you didn't kill it at all. How nasty to claim you did it.
23:21:00 <ehird> Ooh that felt good.
23:21:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I did, but I restarted it when I realized that you need it to pull changes again.
23:21:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, any reason why you don't publish it over plain http
23:21:45 <AnMaster> it seems rather closed development model
23:22:08 <ehird> AnMaster: how many non-deewiant committers are there?
23:22:11 <ehird> none? Yes, that sounds closed.
23:22:11 <Deewiant> Originally I didn't know it was possible and since then I haven't bothered to set it up
23:22:25 <Deewiant> ehird: IIRC you offered a patch but didn't bother ;-)
23:22:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So did the pull work?
23:24:22 <ehird> Deewiant: thoughts re: stack?
23:24:45 <Deewiant> ehird: I didn't get your thoughts. My suggestion is the YAGNI development model.
23:24:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why should I tell you when you act like that :P
23:24:56 <ehird> Deewiant: 23:19 ehird: Hmm, maybe a stack is bad, if you load 4 fprints it'll take 4 "tail"s to get to a core instruction.
23:25:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, it's your loss if it didn't work.
23:25:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway bzr is a lot more logical here. Acts more like you expect.
23:25:05 <ehird> Deewiant: That's not quite YAGNI as This May Slow Down Everything.
23:25:13 <ehird> AnMaster: FAMILIARITY IS NOT INTUITIVENESS!
23:25:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it seems to have worked
23:25:21 <ehird> By the same argument, AnMaster, Windows is more logical than Linux.
23:25:53 <AnMaster> ehird, No. bzr is closer to what you expect from a file system and from a static web server
23:25:59 <AnMaster> one resource per directory/file
23:26:09 <ehird> AnMaster: You're on crack, sir, and don't understand git at all.
23:26:17 <ehird> Because you come from the context of another VCS.
23:26:28 <ehird> This is not git's fault.
23:26:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't want to understand such an abomination as git no.
23:26:41 <Deewiant> I actually always expected branches to live in one directory and was surprised that VCSs don't do it
23:26:55 <ehird> Second by second you make me less likely to ever try and help you with anything ever again, AnMaster.
23:26:56 <Deewiant> SVN in particular struck me as really messed up in terms of layout
23:27:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I fully support google going for mercurial. I don't like hg. But I can live with it.
23:27:07 <AnMaster> it isn't too broken in semantics.
23:27:12 <ehird> But git eats babies after fucking them, yeah, yeah, STFU.
23:27:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes. branches/tags/trunk is kind of messy in svn
23:27:53 <AnMaster> it is trying to be semi-CVS compatible
23:28:43 <ehird> I wonder how I should tell instructions what IP they're executing on.
23:28:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also I managed to get by with simple git pull from several kernel.org projects
23:28:54 <ehird> Interpreter -> InstructionPointer -> IO (Interpreter,InstructionPointer), maybe.
23:29:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it's HIS fault. Obviously.
23:29:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, you've been pulling from my development state which means it wasn't on the master branch.
23:29:20 <ehird> AnMaster: lolllllllllll
23:29:23 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:29:28 <ehird> Deewiant: feel bad about yourself!
23:29:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Why on earth should I have told you?
23:29:43 <Deewiant> You can find out trivially by asking git
23:29:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I just followed your instructions. I would assume that to lead to a sensible state.
23:30:05 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
23:30:12 <Deewiant> I recall being badgered by people to serve CCBI2
23:30:20 <Deewiant> While I was in the middle of writing something for it
23:30:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what? git info? No such thing. I tried many commands that seems kind of common to many VCS, including svn, bzr, darcs, hg. None of them worked.
23:30:42 <ehird> AnMaster: what you get is what you get and it's not gonna work
23:30:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but didn't find what I wanted there.
23:30:54 <Deewiant> ehird: s/not gonna work/no good whining/
23:31:01 <ehird> Deewiant: I was guessing
23:31:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I prefer ehird's interpretation
23:31:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: branch List, create, or delete branches
23:31:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: status Show the working tree status
23:31:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: show Show various types of objects
23:31:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh fuck off if you're going to be so ungrateful to Deewiant
23:31:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: log Show commit logs
23:31:26 <ehird> he has NO OBLIGATION to give you a ccbi2 repository
23:31:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do I show what branch I pulled from
23:31:51 <Deewiant> I don't know if it even remembers that
23:32:18 <AnMaster> the darcs one was similar iirc
23:32:23 <Deewiant> I think you have to do an explicit 'git remote add' to save the URL.
23:32:42 <Deewiant> Read the manpages for git-remote, I don't know about that.
23:32:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I just had to do git pull before without giving the url
23:33:32 <AnMaster> ah darcs was slightly different indeed:
23:33:58 <AnMaster> git may be good internally. I'm not arguing against that.
23:34:20 <AnMaster> But it need a better user interface
23:34:21 <ehird> Deewiant: The stack stack is initially filled with infinite (infinite 0s), right?
23:34:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I daresay the problem is with you.
23:34:49 <Deewiant> ehird: 2009-04-30 00:40:19 ( Deewiant) ehird: No, it's repeat (repeat 0)
23:34:49 <ehird> Me and Deewiant don't seem to have any issues with gi
23:34:51 <AnMaster> ehird, and with 95% of the other developers.
23:35:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, because nobody at all uses git.
23:35:11 <ehird> It is not a very popular DVCS, if not the most popular.
23:35:17 <Deewiant> Ulrich Drepper uses git so it must be good
23:35:17 <ehird> It is not gaining large amounts of traction.
23:35:27 <ehird> In fact, everyone hates it.
23:35:36 <ehird> Birds shit on Linus just for making git.
23:35:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why. You are a fanboy of him?
23:35:59 <Deewiant> ehird: You broke his sarcasm detector
23:36:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I know he is glibc maintainer. I think glibc is bloated.
23:36:04 <ehird> Deewiant: It never worked.
23:36:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Along with his Sense of Humour Lobe and the Intelligence cortex.
23:36:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it did before I met you
23:36:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Maybe you know that people in general think he's batshit insane
23:36:36 <ehird> Deewiant: He's right you know, though. Everyone who likes git is inherently a fanboy.
23:36:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I haven't really tracked the general opinions about him. So I have no clue if that is sarcasm or not.
23:37:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it's like ais523 a few days ago (yesterday? or day before that?). He quoted jwz. He didn't know jwz was one of the developers of Netscape
23:38:00 <ehird> He just didn't know that jwz meant Jamie Zawinski.
23:38:09 <ehird> I was under the impression you did know
23:38:14 <ehird> It's not exactly common knowledge
23:38:18 <ehird> Unlike ulrich drepper
23:38:19 <AnMaster> ehird, read logs. Before you talk
23:38:27 <ehird> That sounds like a metal guitarist's name btw
23:38:28 <Deewiant> I'm not sure how that is relevant to anything at all?
23:38:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh fuck off.
23:38:44 <AnMaster> ehird, you always complain when I don't read fully or misunderstood
23:39:01 <ehird> Tip of the Day: On the list of things I care about, AnMaster whining that I'm so unfair to him comes in rock bottom.
23:39:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not "whining". I'm just stating a fact.
23:39:41 <ehird> Mm. Yes. You're stating a fact in an incredibly whiney way.
23:39:58 <ehird> "NO I'M NOT BEING WHINY! HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF BEING WHINEEEEEEEEEY"
23:40:15 <Deewiant> I think this is a good opportunity to sleep for some 10 hours
23:40:47 <AnMaster> ehird, and I really regret I provided that description of how cfunge bounds work to you.
23:41:06 <ehird> AnMaster: If you didn't have I could always have read the source and wantonly violated the GPL3.
23:41:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well you could. I doubt you would have.
23:41:33 <ehird> AnMaster: You think I care about copyright law...?
23:41:49 <AnMaster> ehird, No. I think you would have reacted in same way as for hsfunge source.
23:42:03 <ehird> I've read cfunge source before.
23:42:07 <ehird> It's shit code but I can read shit code.
23:42:14 <AnMaster> ehird, not since I started using inline asm.
23:42:29 <ehird> I can read asm, albeit slowly.
23:42:30 <AnMaster> I guess it isn't your preferred indention style.
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23:42:50 <ehird> AnMaster: your code would give k&r a heart attack
23:43:05 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. I'm using C99 as you very well know.
23:43:21 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm using a different indention style yes.
23:43:36 <AnMaster> I don't like the k&r indention style at all
23:50:48 <AnMaster> ehird, your use of that word all the time makes no sense.
23:51:03 <AnMaster> I guess it is some compulsive behaviour.
23:51:10 <ehird> That's funny, because I use it to exactly mark you missing the point entirely.
23:51:17 <ehird> Hardly surprising, then.
23:51:25 <ehird> You miss your missing of the point.
23:51:54 <AnMaster> ehird, seems highly non-standard. Checked urban dict.
23:52:24 <ehird> It is onomatopoeic
23:52:40 <ehird> "joke going over your head" is highly idiomatic.
23:52:54 <ehird> "Whoosh" is the internet-created shortening.
23:53:19 <AnMaster> ehird, "going over your head" I know of yes.
23:53:27 <AnMaster> But how does it end up as "whoosh"
23:53:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I see nothing large has ever gone over your head.
23:54:14 <ehird> or you were in a vacuum at the time
23:55:30 <AnMaster> ehird, you still doesn't make sense. I guess you are trying (and failing as usual) to be funny
23:55:47 <ehird> I'm forced to assume that if you
23:55:48 <AnMaster> I wonder how ais523 can stand you. It's strange.
23:55:56 <ehird> 've really never heard the "whoosh" sound of air as something goes over your haed,
23:56:01 <ehird> you live in a faraday cage.
23:56:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean low flying bird for example?
23:56:28 <ehird> Yes. If that's the only thing that flies in the air in Sweden.
23:56:42 <AnMaster> ehird, aircrafts usually fly a lot higher
23:57:01 <AnMaster> at least I don't stand under one a few meters above
23:58:07 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it isn't called "whoosh" in Swedish. I don't think I ever heard a name for it.
23:58:38 <AnMaster> the wind. then the verb is "viner"
23:59:11 <AnMaster> or for the noun, "ett vinande ljud" (a whooshing (from wind) sound I guess)
23:59:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to assume everyone have near native English knowledge.
00:00:02 <ehird> I assume you have access to a dictionary, google, etc.
00:00:10 <ehird> Therefore I do not dumb down my language.
00:00:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I prefer to make my message accessible to the target of the message.
00:01:19 <AnMaster> ehird, out of pure interest, do you speak like that to other people of your own age.
00:01:27 <ehird> AnMaster: You don't do a very good job of it; I can't understand you half the time.
00:02:08 <ehird> And I could probably count the amount of times someone of my own age has been willing to voluntarily listen to me on a few hands.
00:03:37 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) you are exaggerating 2) ais can though, same for Deewiant, so I suspect the issue is very much that you lack patience.
00:03:55 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I can see why that would happen.
00:04:21 <ehird> (1) Please feel free to tell that to others of my age. (2) "I prefer to make my message accessible to the target of the message." if I cannot understand it, it is not accessible to me. You can understand "whoosh" to, you just have to be patient enough to look it up.
00:05:09 <AnMaster> about 2, maybe I have not been unsuccessful in your case. I have tried however.
00:05:21 <ehird> Not been unsuccessful?
00:05:24 <ehird> You mean been successful?
00:35:04 <psygnisfive> that sort of morphosyntactic error is BEAUTIFUL
00:40:13 <psygnisfive> its cool because they happen all over the place in very particular circumstances
00:40:31 <psygnisfive> people will double negate or misnegate things in a very precise way
00:50:48 <psygnisfive> because there are all sorts of scope issues
00:50:49 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it happens when you rewrite part of the line. It isn't strange
00:51:41 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, when did you last write an esolang interpreter instead of discuss linguistics?
00:52:07 <psygnisfive> i dont write compilers, but i wrote an interpret some time in the past. :P
00:52:24 <psygnisfive> listen, its not my fault all this esolang stuff is circling the same few ideas! >|
00:53:26 <ehird> AnMaster: nobody cares that he's offtopic
00:53:28 <AnMaster> That english says "<statement> too" meaning you disagree.
00:53:42 <AnMaster> to me it parse as "<statement> as well"
00:53:55 <AnMaster> or "in addition to what you said"
00:54:17 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, not to a non-expert.
00:54:40 <psygnisfive> since its an adverbial that after the T element
00:54:47 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, actually it is "<foo> <am/is/are> too"
00:55:19 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you mean a form of "be" in other word
00:55:32 <psygnisfive> "too" seems to be the positive version of "not"
00:55:39 <psygnisfive> since the distribution is apparently identical
00:55:57 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I have no clue whatsoever that means.
00:56:13 <psygnisfive> theres a syntatic position within a sentence called T
00:56:25 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, make sure this doesn't become a tl;dr
00:56:36 <AnMaster> a tl;dr for linguistics is 5 lines.
00:57:11 <psygnisfive> some auxiliary verbs raise into T, sometimes there are things already in T, etc.
00:57:40 <psygnisfive> so for instance "will" is already in T: "I will not be going to the store" but remove "will" and you get "I am not going to the store"
00:58:12 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, anyway. INTERCAL and Befunge are very different. So are Brainfuck and Underload. And what about Slashes and RUBE?
00:58:37 <ehird> Those are all old, AnMaster.
00:58:49 <AnMaster> ehird, slashes is rather new isn't it?
00:58:59 <AnMaster> but the other ones are old yes.
00:59:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, what about Feather?
00:59:22 <psygnisfive> hold on, let me look at what these are like so i can properly bitch about them
00:59:37 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, yes it does. Not on the wiki though.
00:59:55 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and then there is OISC
01:00:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, neither Feather or oklotalk are on the wiki. Trust me.
01:00:31 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you have to read channel logs.
01:00:35 <psygnisfive> im looking for rube and that other one right now
01:01:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, also there was an idea about a language based on time traveling trains.
01:01:30 <AnMaster> I don't think it was ever well speced.
01:01:56 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, a lot less than linguistics at least.
01:02:13 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and there is Photon, Not well speced either
01:02:27 <AnMaster> but based on physics simulation of light reflecting.
01:03:49 <AnMaster> fuzzy human logic and so on ;P
01:04:19 <psygnisfive> im just interested in novel ways of conceptualizing computational tasks
01:04:27 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, then IRP is for you
01:06:01 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, IRP is more your style
01:06:01 <psygnisfive> it seems to be a time reversal of the normal chat s/// operation
01:06:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, err s/// isn't a "chat operation" as such
01:06:32 <AnMaster> it is based on Perl, sed and so on
01:06:46 <ehird> AnMaster: stfu with "IRP is for you!" and "LINGUISTICS IS FOR FAGS"
01:07:05 <psygnisfive> ehird: i agree. there are lots of breeders who like linguistics.
01:07:07 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "<psygnisfive> s/// is totally a chat operation" <-- how do you mean
01:07:15 <ehird> is that what you call straight people
01:07:33 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: stfu with "IRP is for you!" and "LINGUISTICS IS FOR FAGS" <-- is psygnisfive the latter? I see. I wasn't aware.
01:07:37 <psygnisfive> in that we use s/a/b/ in chats to mean "replace that last instance when i said a with b"
01:07:53 <ehird> AnMaster: err he practically cybersexes oklopol all the time
01:07:58 <ehird> how can you not notice
01:08:19 <ehird> AnMaster: STOP! STOP WITH THE SEX!
01:08:22 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I also use //s/// to. The more complex sed syntax.
01:09:00 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, /foo/s/bar/quux/ would only match on lines where "foo" is found.
01:09:08 <AnMaster> but would replace bar with quux on those
01:09:28 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, big question is. Is Slashes TC or not!?
01:10:41 <psygnisfive> itd be interesting to see if that can be made comprehensibly useful
01:10:54 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, TC or not is much more interesting
01:11:29 <AnMaster> yes, but tc or not is *more* interesting.
01:11:29 <ehird> AnMaster: read up on total fp
01:11:34 <ehird> tc is almost entirely needless
01:11:53 <AnMaster> There is no page titled "total fp". You can create this page.
01:12:15 <AnMaster> 32: ...t of its steps (''n''! possibilities) - this is a total of ''n''*''n''! possible configurations.
01:12:15 <AnMaster> 38: If we take ''n'' to be finite, then the total number of possible configurations is bounded as w...
01:12:26 <AnMaster> ehird, link to the relevant one
01:12:31 <ehird> AnMaster: not an esolang.
01:12:47 <AnMaster> Did you mean: total fta Top 2 results shown
01:12:51 <ehird> AnMaster: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2003
01:12:59 <ehird> AnMaster: & http://www.jucs.org/jucs_10_7/total_functional_programming/jucs_10_07_0751_0768_turner.pdf
01:13:23 <AnMaster> thanks for the latter link especially
01:13:37 <ehird> it's a readable paper so you shouldn't have too many issues
01:13:53 <AnMaster> ehird, papers are easier to read than web pages in general IMO
01:14:00 <ehird> readable as in language, foo
01:15:58 <AnMaster> ehird, very interesting. Will bookmark it for further reading tomorrow when I'm less tired.
01:16:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd go as far as "extremely interesting"
01:16:29 <ehird> yes, unfortunately it has issues so I'm not going to be programming with a total FP language any time soon
01:16:30 <AnMaster> ehird, anyone tried implementing this in haskell yet?
01:16:36 <ehird> but further research is very much warranted
01:16:40 <ehird> AnMaster: there are no implementations afaik
01:16:46 <ehird> you couldn't build it on top
01:17:10 <psygnisfive> i like haskell's no-arbitrary-number-of-arguments model
01:17:15 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I can from the abstract see that there are some stuff that will be hard. I don't yet know if the paper solves the need to operate on codata in it.
01:17:26 <AnMaster> but very often you need that for at least a part of the program
01:17:27 <ehird> no, codata is essential
01:17:45 <psygnisfive> tho i imagine you could actually define some functions in haskell that can take an arbitrary number of args, with a delimiter
01:18:01 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> i like haskell's no-arbitrary-number-of-arguments model <-- Erlang has that too.
01:18:02 <ehird> see Oleg; in fact, always see Oleg
01:18:19 <ehird> yes, you do it with typeclasses
01:36:39 <psygnisfive> how do i return a partial function in haskell?
01:45:57 <psygnisfive> heres my not-working-in-haskell definition of sum
01:49:56 <psygnisfive> sum id 5 4 3 0 => sum (\y -> y + 5) 4 3 0 => sum (\y -> y + 9) 3 0 => sum (\y -> y + 12) 0 => 12
01:51:40 <psygnisfive> but i keep getting "too few arguments" errors
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03:50:30 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
03:50:48 <GregorR> Not complete, based on an entirely new codebase, source available at http://codu.org/projects/egobot/ , enjoy.
03:51:21 <GregorR> !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++>+>+++++++>+++++<<<<-]>>>>---.<----.+++++++..+++.<<-.------------.>>++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.<<+.>-----.
03:51:42 <GregorR> See, it's so incomplete it doesn't even work when I run it the second time, only when I run it the first time X-P
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03:52:39 <GregorR> !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++>+>+++++++>+++++<<<<-]>>>>---.<----.+++++++..+++.<<-.------------.>>++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.<<+.>-----.
03:52:46 <GregorR> See, it actually does work ;)
03:53:52 <GregorR> !bf +++++++++++++++[>+++>+>+++++++>+++++<<<<-]>>>>---.<----.+++++++..+++.<<-.------------.>>++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.<<+.>-----.
03:55:47 <pikhq> Egobot! Oh, how we missed thee and thy crashiness!
03:56:47 <pikhq> psygnisfive: Egobot is Gregor's work, yeah.
03:56:56 <pikhq> Wait, you rewrote Egobot?
03:57:12 <pikhq> !bf_txtgen Egobot 2.0!
03:57:15 <EgoBot> 138 ++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++.-------------.+++++++++++++.+++++.>++.>.----.++.<+.>>. [560]
03:57:34 <GregorR> psygnisfive: In fact, yes.
03:57:46 <pikhq> Doesn't do PMs any more?
03:57:55 <pikhq> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>+++++>+<<<<-]>-.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.++++++++.-------------.+++++++++++++.+++++.>++.>.----.++.<+.>>.
03:58:25 <GregorR> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>.<+.
03:59:09 <pikhq> Hmm. It's got Dimensifuck support, too? Has it always, or am I just slow?
03:59:45 <GregorR> I just did a quick sweep over the ones in old EgoBot, so probably it doesn't.
03:59:56 <GregorR> Which is to say, it may be in the menu but not actually working ;)
04:00:12 <pikhq> !dimensifuck 0+v.+^
04:01:04 <pikhq> Guess not. That ought to be spamming stuff.
04:01:23 <GregorR> Does it ever spam a newline? :P
04:01:40 <pikhq> That is in [0..255], isn't it?
04:02:02 <pikhq> The same code in Brainfuck is +[.+], BTW.
04:02:43 <GregorR> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>.<+.
04:02:53 <pikhq> !dimensifuck ++++++++++.
04:03:49 <GregorR> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>.<+.
04:04:10 <GregorR> while read LN is valid bash, right? X_X
04:04:53 <GregorR> OK, obviously the rest of the loop comes after that X_X
04:05:28 <GregorR> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>.<+.
04:06:12 <coppro> !bf +++++[>++++++<]>++.
04:08:45 <GregorR> Oh, found the issue. Weird one.
04:09:38 <coppro> !bf +++++[>++>+++>++++[>++++>++++<<-]<-]>>-->>----.>.<--------.>-.
04:10:06 <GregorR> I said found, not fixed :P
04:10:24 <GregorR> OK, /now/ it's found and fixed.
04:10:35 <GregorR> Apparently read LN doesn't work right if there is no newline at the end of input.
04:12:05 <GregorR> !bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>.<+.
04:12:14 <coppro> !bf +++++[>++>+++>++++[>++++>++++<<-]<<<-]>.>--.>>+.++++.>-------.<-.
04:12:15 -!- EgoBot has quit.
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04:12:51 <GregorR> !bf +++++[>++>+++>++++[>++++>++++<<-]<<<-]>.>--.>>+.++++.>-------.<-.
04:12:53 -!- EgoBot has quit (Client Quit).
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04:13:04 <GregorR> It should be nigh-on impossible to cause that ...
04:13:12 <coppro> hint: it's not a crash
04:13:23 <GregorR> Presumably that outputs \r\nQUIT or something.
04:14:19 <coppro> !bf +++++[>++>+++>++++++>++++[>++++>++++<<-]<<<<-]>.>--.>>>--.-----.------.++++++++.<<++.>>---------.>+++++.<+++++.
04:15:42 <pikhq> What, exactly, *does* it print?
04:16:35 <GregorR> pikhq: But my script reads the output by-line, so that makes no sense X_X
04:17:28 <coppro> !bf +++++[>++>+++>++++++>++++[>++++>++++<<-]<<<<-]>.>--.>>>--.-----.------.++++++++.<<++.>>>+++.<------.--.>++.---.<++++++.>++.+++++.<-------.>----.<+++++.
04:17:29 -!- EgoBot has changed nick to SECURITYBUG.
04:17:58 <coppro> It's like SQL injection with more fun!
04:18:07 <GregorR> And less actual potential harm to anything.
04:18:21 <coppro> !bf +++++[>++>+++>++++[>++++>++++<<-]<<<-]>.>--.>>+.++++.>-------.<-.
04:18:22 -!- SECURITYBUG has quit.
04:18:49 <coppro> shouldn't it have rejoined by now?
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04:19:19 <pikhq> !bf_txtgen \r\nQUIT HALDO
04:19:22 <EgoBot> 155 ++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>++.>++++.<.>----.-----------------------------.<-------.>--------.<-.<++.>>-.-------.<--------.>+++.<+++.>>. [902]
04:19:27 <GregorR> Well that's clearly not going to work.
04:19:33 <GregorR> !bf +++++[>++>+++>++++++>++++[>++++>++++<<-]<<<<-]>.>--.>>>--.-----.------.++++++++.<<++.>>---------.>+++++.<+++++.
04:20:05 <GregorR> !bf +++++[>++>+++>++++[>++++>++++<<-]<<<-]>.>--.>>+.++++.>-------.<-.
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04:20:28 <GregorR> There is no logic by which this should happen.
04:20:43 <coppro> Does it have infinite loop protection?
04:21:08 <GregorR> In terms of slowing the program down and limiting its CPU and clock time, yes.
04:21:10 <pikhq> !bf ++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++>+++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>++.>++++.<.>----.-----------------------------.<-------.>--------.<-.<++.>>-.-------.<--------.>+++.<+++.>>.
04:22:44 <GregorR> !bf +++++[>++>+++>++++[>++++>++++<<-]<<<-]>.>--.>>+.++++.>-------.<-.
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04:25:49 <GregorR> What the heck, it happened with your BF program, but not mine ... what weird thing is yours doing that mine isn't?
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04:28:07 <coppro> also question, does anyone have a BF debugger?
04:28:07 <pikhq> Hmm. We've got EgoBot. Now I guess we're going back in time?
04:28:22 <pikhq> Should be only a matter of time before we're talking about LOLCODE again. :(
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04:29:23 <GregorR> coppro: BTW, it's supposed to be \r\n, not \n\r ;)
04:29:39 <coppro> that might be why it worked lol
04:29:40 <GregorR> coppro: Also btw, apparently FreeNode accepts \r as a line delimiter. Who knew.
04:30:00 <GregorR> That /is/ why it worked. I didn't scrub for random \r's, because why would I? But apparently FreeNode thinks \r is a line delimiter by itself :P
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04:31:17 <GregorR> !bf +++++[>++>+++>++++[>++++>++++<<-]<<<-]>.>--.>>+.++++.>-------.<-.
04:32:11 <adu> is that bf?
04:33:08 <adu> how would you write "true" and "false" in bf?
04:33:08 <GregorR> adu: That was a piece of BF that SOME shitty person used to break my bot :P
04:33:38 <EgoBot> 62 +++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>+><<<<-]>-.--.+++.>---.>---. [218]
04:33:39 <adu> as in a 0 return status and a nonzero return status
04:33:56 <GregorR> Ah, that you can't do, or at least can't do consistently, as there's no well-defined way to exit with a particular status code.
04:34:15 <GregorR> Alas, another nail in the BF-UNIX coffin :P
04:34:36 <pikhq> Unless you get PSOX out.
04:34:45 <adu> what if the 0th cell was the return status and >=1 are stdout?
04:35:05 <GregorR> adu: Then that wouldn't be BF :)
04:35:07 <pikhq> (one of these days, I'm going to make an implementation *and* a PEBBLE library for that...)
04:35:10 <Sgeo> adu, PSOX can do it
04:35:15 <Sgeo> Like pikhq said
04:35:37 <pikhq> adu: Then "true" would be the null string and "false" would be "+".
04:35:39 <Sgeo> (I have PSOX on highlight. If you don't want me noticing, censor it. MUAHAHAHA)
04:35:59 <adu> pikhq: that makes sense :)
04:36:39 <adu> pikhq: what if the (-1)th cell was return status?
04:36:46 <Sgeo> adu, PSOX can return statuses
04:36:57 <adu> whats PSOX?
04:37:21 <Sgeo> It's a layer that goes between an esolang interpreter and stdio
04:37:21 <pikhq> False would be "<+", then...
04:37:54 <adu> Sgeo: i see
04:38:18 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, get the mercurial source at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
04:38:57 <Sgeo> http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk
04:39:36 <Sgeo> Let's see if I can write true
04:39:42 <GregorR> Now, I expect to be getting some emails with hg bundles for the numerous languages that have been invented since I last touched EgoBot. If I don't see them, I WILL BE ANGRY :P
04:40:46 <Sgeo> .+++++++.>+.<+++.>-..<.,,,[-].++.-.-.++++++++++.
04:40:53 <Sgeo> That should be TRUE in PSOX
04:41:17 <Sgeo> .+++++++.>+.<+++.>-..<.,,,[-].++.-..+++++++++.
04:42:09 <Sgeo> adu, feel free to assassinate me
04:43:25 * adu gives Sgeo a hug :)
04:43:37 <coppro> Sgeo: is there a link to the PSOX docs?
04:44:03 <Sgeo> coppro, http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/spec
04:49:51 <GregorR> pikhq: Any comments on multibot? :P
04:50:06 <pikhq> GregorR: Multibot?
04:50:11 <pikhq> Uh... Egobot, I assume?
04:50:25 <GregorR> pikhq: Oh, I assumed you had checked out egobot's source and so seen that it's just a set of scripts for multibot :P
04:50:43 <pikhq> Egobot is one of our finest traditions; glad to see it return. :p
04:50:53 <GregorR> multibot is another "why do I keep writing IRC bots" IRC bot.
04:51:19 <GregorR> It's all scripted. Whenver it receives a message, it looks for an appropriate script to run by the command, channel, etc.
04:52:13 <GregorR> (Which is why it was so easy to reimplement EgoBot :P )
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06:03:44 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
06:03:49 <GregorR> Hey look, it's still running :P
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06:37:41 <GregorR> !bf_txtgen help help me rhonda
06:37:45 <EgoBot> 141 +++++++++++++++[>++>+++++++>+++++++>+<<<<-]>>-.---.>+++.++++.<<++.>+++.---.+++++++.>.<<.>+.--------.<.>>++.<+++.>---.-.----------.---.>-----. [423]
06:37:53 <GregorR> !bf +++++++++++++++[>++>+++++++>+++++++>+<<<<-]>>-.---.>+++.++++.<<++.>+++.---.+++++++.>.<<.>+.--------.<.>>++.<+++.>---.-.----------.---.>-----.
06:42:22 <bsmntbombdood> !bf_txtgen aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
06:42:27 <EgoBot> 196 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>-....>-.>-................>-.....<...<.....>...>......---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------. [358]
06:42:52 <GregorR> It uses a genetic algorithm, blame calamari.
06:43:10 <GregorR> (Also I cut it off at 1000 generations)
06:43:13 <bsmntbombdood> i won't be satisfied until the 3-bit encoding of brainfuck instructions is shorter than the original string
07:00:07 <fizzie> bf_txtgen also has a user-defined number of cells it always uses; by default 4.
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07:16:49 <GregorR> fizzie: If you want tuned text generation, you download textgen.java yourself, !bf_txtgen is just for testing and fun :P
07:18:13 <fizzie> Yes, but it should tune-a-fish itself automatically; that's what computers are for, after all.
07:20:11 <GregorR> fizzie: I await your hg bundle with fixes to make it brilliant :P
07:23:53 <fizzie> Eh; it should also rewrite itself, that's also what computers are for.
07:26:33 <fizzie> Admittedly it would feel pretty silly when a brainfuck text generator took over the world.
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11:25:25 <ais523> sorry, can't talk much, I'm in an assessed project open day atm
11:25:39 <ais523> even though it's worth hardly any marks, basically the mark on this just determines whether my final mark rounds up or down
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13:03:10 <Deewiant> Re. Ulrich Drepper, hadn't seen this one before: http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=956
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13:23:17 <tombom> who was the guy who constantly closed a bug where the rpm database could get destroyed if you did some reasonably routine stuff as "WONTFIX" and eventually got fired over it
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14:33:51 <GregorR> Deewiant: Wow, that's defiantly useless :P
14:33:59 <GregorR> Deewiant: I especially like "there is no bug"
14:44:35 * GregorR imagines Ulrich Drepper doing the Jedi mind trick "there is no bug!"
14:46:31 <Slereah> You must eat a bug to prove your loyalty
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15:11:58 <ais523> http://blogs.msdn.com/vbteam/archive/2009/04/01/using-negative-sleeps-to-improve-responsiveness-in-vb-web-apps.aspx
15:12:06 <ais523> it seems Microsoft had an April Fool's joke too
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16:38:45 <oerjan> !unlambda ````.Y.a.y.!i
16:45:18 <oerjan> 17:46:42 <psygnisfive> sum f 0 = f 0
16:45:18 <oerjan> 17:46:42 <psygnisfive> sum f x = sum (\y -> y + f x)
16:48:20 <oerjan> problem is, without type classes there is no way to assign a type to that which doesn't require sum f x to have the same type as sum f
16:48:49 <oerjan> which means they both must take the same number of arguments => infinity
16:49:48 <Deewiant> fix (\f s xs -> case xs of [] -> s; y:ys -> f (s+y) ys) 0
16:51:04 <oerjan> but psygnisfive doesn't use any lists
16:51:22 <Deewiant> I know, I wonder what that sum function is summing :-)
16:51:43 <oerjan> 17:49:56 <psygnisfive> sum id 5 4 3 0 => sum (\y -> y + 5) 4 3 0 => sum (\y -> y + 9) 3 0 => sum (\y -> y + 12) 0 => 12
16:52:09 <Deewiant> But yeah, that can't work without a type class
16:53:16 <oerjan> it cannot work for every Num in any case, but specific types should be doable...
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16:54:07 <Deewiant> Oh right, it takes two parameters, of course it can work
16:54:12 <oerjan> (because you cannot dispatch a type class on another one)
16:55:14 <oerjan> it might very well work with just the numbers too, printf manages to have only the arguments
16:55:46 <oerjan> but i recall it goes via a helper function that uses an accumulating list
16:56:02 <Deewiant> Possibly, I haven't looked at it in much detail
16:56:28 <oerjan> well naturally, you could define sum = sum' id
16:57:38 <oerjan> (if you are careful about how you do it, that exact phrasing would probably trigger the monomorphism restriction)
16:58:04 <Deewiant> Just give it a type signature :-P
17:05:58 <oerjan> 20:28:22 <pikhq> Should be only a matter of time before we're talking about LOLCODE again. :(
17:06:11 <oerjan> i thought LOLCODE was after EgoBot vanished...
17:10:00 <oerjan> 23:26:33 <fizzie> Admittedly it would feel pretty silly when a brainfuck text generator took over the world.
17:10:24 <oerjan> whatever AI takes over the world _will_ be silly.
17:13:19 <oerjan> it will put a smile on your face.
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17:28:02 <oerjan> psygnisfive: oh, and another thing about that sum is that that 0 has the exact same type as the other arguments, so it won't help decide when to stop taking arguments at all - haskell is not dependently typed so _values_ don't influence _types_
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18:51:03 <oerjan> it's apparently a new implementation
18:53:02 <AnMaster> does the new one do the suspend process crazy stuff too?
18:53:18 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
18:54:39 <fungot> oerjan: " it was a golden crown." ( bruno had very fnord provided one, which fitted him exactly, by cutting out the centre of the crown.
18:54:48 <oerjan> At least _you_ are user-extendable
18:54:49 <pikhq> Gregor a while back wrote a different bot. EgoBot is now a slight bit of patching on that.
18:54:58 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
18:55:03 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
18:55:12 <pikhq> Go forth, patch EgoBot!
18:56:34 <oerjan> hm that fungot quote looks like it's one piece
18:56:35 <fungot> oerjan: once more: and, till then, i shalt say, in about three seconds. but it was also a worn and sad one, and told a tale ( or so i seemed to see a little further. ' principal fnord there are any, have the fnord so fnord a series of somersaults. however, it was, spread over the hearth-rug, all fnord and fnord
18:56:52 <AnMaster> so it doesn't reflect on 93 instructions
18:57:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it did wrap around, I checked.
18:57:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I was checking # over space.
18:57:28 <pikhq> EgoBot is wrapping a different Befunge interpreter.
18:57:39 <pikhq> It'd be easy to get it to wrap a better one.
18:57:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: And also # over edge, accidentally.
18:58:00 <Deewiant> UNDEF: # over edge does not skip rightmost column in file
18:58:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I suspect it is 93 not 98
18:58:13 <Deewiant> Yes, if it's 93 that's expected.
18:59:04 <AnMaster> !befunge #@ #, #, "a"$# q "b",,@
18:59:05 <Deewiant> !befunge #2#.#@>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1.@
18:59:14 <Deewiant> !befunge #2#.#@>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1.@
18:59:27 <Deewiant> !befunge #2#.#@>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
18:59:58 <Deewiant> !befunge #2#.#@>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1.@
19:00:14 <AnMaster> !befunge #2#.#@>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1.@
19:00:18 <AnMaster> !befunge #2#.#@>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1.@
19:00:30 <Deewiant> !befunge #2#.#@>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>># 1.@
19:00:47 <Deewiant> UNDEF: # over column 80 does not skip column 0
19:00:50 <AnMaster> !befunge #2#.#@>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>># 1.@
19:00:53 <AnMaster> !befunge #2#.#@>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>># 1.@
19:01:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: In mine, the # is 80th
19:01:44 <AnMaster> https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/50ebc27d8665/multibot_cmds/interps/befunge/bef.c#l1
19:01:45 <Deewiant> My guess it loads only 80x25 as expected, and then the # over edge hits column 0.
19:01:54 <AnMaster> 3 bef.c - The Original Befunge-93 Interpreter/Debugger in ANSI C
19:01:54 <AnMaster> 4 v2.21 Sep 20 2004 Chris Pressey, Cat's-Eye Technologies
19:03:09 <Deewiant> I think that's the only extant piece of code that can do anything with Befunge-97
19:03:17 <Deewiant> I may remember incorrectly but I think so.
19:03:23 <Deewiant> int use_b97directives = 0; /* flag : use b97-esque directives? */
19:03:38 <AnMaster> could we reverse engineer bf-97 from it
19:04:00 <Deewiant> I don't think it's worth the effort :-P
19:04:21 <AnMaster> if (use_b97directives && (x == 0) && ((cur == dc) || ((accept_pound) && (cur == '#'))))
19:04:54 <Deewiant> Yeah, Befunge-97 had source directives like #foo at the start
19:05:06 <Deewiant> Can't remember what kinds of things they did
19:05:37 <Deewiant> broad set of interpreter directives (very roughly analogous to assembler
19:05:37 <Deewiant> directives or C preprocessor directives) to help the programmer take
19:06:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is very confusing the bit that parses these directives
19:06:36 <Deewiant> Lines starting with =, sorry, not #.
19:07:12 <Deewiant> Evidently; I don't know / can't recall what that's about.
19:08:08 <Deewiant> http://www.bedroomlan.org/hacks/signature-befunge has an example of a Befunge-97 proggy
19:09:02 <fizzie> To me that if looks like it's saying; if at start of line, and we either have the directive-introducing character ("dc") or we have a # and the accept-pound setting is on, then do something.
19:09:17 <fizzie> So presumably there's a setting that makes it support #foo-directives too.
19:10:17 <Deewiant> http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/eg/pi2.bf is Bef97; may be -98 as well.
19:10:39 <Deewiant> Ask Chris if he still has one.
19:10:59 <Deewiant> Somebody on the Language::Befunge mailing list has one he translated to French but lost the original
19:11:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't we get Slereah (spelling?) to back-translate it
19:12:04 <AnMaster> if the French one still exists
19:12:19 <Deewiant> I'm sure we could get many to back-translate it if you want it and he still has it :-P
19:12:53 <AnMaster> I found a reference to Befunge-96, seems it had concurrency. Can't find anything else about it.
19:13:05 <Deewiant> Yep, -96 is even more obscure than -97.
19:13:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm: http://www.mail-archive.com/perl6-all%40perl.org/msg42839.html
19:14:04 <Deewiant> Yep, that's the guy I was talking about.
19:14:27 <Deewiant> 'I have translation of Befunge-93 spec with appendix D which mentions directive '='. I translated it myself in 1998, but lost original :-)'
19:15:09 <Deewiant> http://www.bedroomlan.org/hacks/soup is another
19:17:25 <Deewiant> I recall having seen =I and =L somewhere but I don't know where. Oh well.
19:18:33 <AnMaster> "In Befunge-93, the data types supported were 32-bit integers and bytes, but Befunge-97 supports only machine-width integers. Befunge-97 also supports a broad set of interpreter directives (very roughly analogous to assembler directives or C preprocessor directives) to help the programmer take advantage of the larger grid.
19:18:33 <AnMaster> Several free implementations of both old Befunge-93 and newer Befunge-97 exist, some explicitly for PCs and at least one that is highly portable (based on Perl). Fairly good documentation and some example programs are available on the web."
19:18:44 <AnMaster> http://cgibin.erols.com/ziring/cgi-bin/cep/cep.pl?_key=Befunge
19:19:36 <AnMaster> http://search.cpan.org/~jquelin/Language-Befunge-2.06/Befunge/IP.pm says "Language::Befunge::IP - an Instruction Pointer for a Befunge-97 program." but seems to be all 98 to me
19:21:41 <AnMaster> https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/50ebc27d8665/multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_21.cmd#l1
19:21:46 <AnMaster> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:22:46 <AnMaster> it is written in shell and C. I would never have thought anyone else was that crazy
19:22:54 <AnMaster> I mean of course I have written irc bots in shell
19:23:01 <AnMaster> (envbot being the most advanced one)
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19:23:21 <pikhq> Remember, Gregor is insane.
19:23:35 <AnMaster> meh. Aren't we all more or less.
19:25:35 <AnMaster> https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/index.cgi/file/50ebc27d8665/README#l1
19:25:42 <AnMaster> he could use cfunge quite easily for befunge-98 in it. It has a sandbox mode.
19:26:45 <GregorR> It's supposed to be the IRC equivalent of CGI :P
19:27:03 <AnMaster> GregorR, do you sandbox the interpreters at some OS level as well or
19:27:41 <GregorR> EgoBot runs in a chroot, but the interps aren't really sandboxed from the bot itself.
19:28:00 <GregorR> (They have some ulimits, but that's nothing really P )
19:28:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, if it is running on a POSIX system you could drop a cfunge binary in for funge-98 (if you want a sandboxed one). Or CCBI I guess if you want to rely on chroot.
19:28:34 <AnMaster> cfunge allocates optimistically, expecting a large program.
19:28:51 <GregorR> Few files, few forks, small files. It allows some 32MB of memory, so it shouldn't be an issue.
19:29:00 <pikhq> It's running on a Xen VM running... Linux, I think?
19:29:04 <AnMaster> GregorR, as in ulimit -v or ulimit -m
19:29:59 <GregorR> Y'know what, I set it as ulimit -m, but you've just reminded me that that's wrong :P
19:30:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, cfunge needs ulimit -v $(( 1024 * 23 + 512 )) to even get as far as mmap()ing the input file.
19:30:17 <AnMaster> yes it mmap()s the input file for fast loading.
19:31:01 <AnMaster> I guess a build that disable NCRS and TERM would need less. Since it wouldn't need to load libncurses.so
19:31:09 <GregorR> What am I using now for befunge? :P
19:31:25 <AnMaster> and if you are ok using gettimeofday() instead of clock_gettime() you could drop librt and libpthreads too
19:32:10 <AnMaster> which cfunge doesn't aim to provide. (it does have a semi-working compatiblity mode for 93, I plan to drop it as it doesn't fully support 93 with it)
19:32:10 <GregorR> Well, I can't look at that now, or even tonight. If somebody updates it and sends me a bundle I can import that easy, otherwise it'll be tomorrow at least.
19:32:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm what about build system
19:32:48 <GregorR> I can install cmake in the chroot, that's not a big deal.
19:32:58 <AnMaster> I could add a MINIMAL switch which disables NCRS and TERM (would be useless for irc usage anyway)
19:33:48 <Deewiant> CCBI has a fully working 93 compat mode as of 2-3 hours ago.
19:34:22 <AnMaster> GregorR, also CCBI needs even more ram than cfunge in my tests.
19:34:32 <Deewiant> 93 compat mode is a sandbox mode though, right? ;-P
19:35:48 <GregorR> Feel free to duke it out yourselves.
19:35:56 <Deewiant> I don't really care that much :-P
19:36:27 <AnMaster> GregorR, I don't use hg enough to know that. But I can provide a good old patch. I'm restructuring build system to help this work smoothly in your code.
19:36:33 <Deewiant> One advantage of CCBI2 currently is that it has Unefunge, though
19:37:18 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about multi-line input for the interpreters
19:37:42 <GregorR> AnMaster: Patch is fine. If you do want to make a bundle, it's as simple as: hg add <files>; hg commit -m 'Your commit message'; hg bundle > bundle.file
19:37:43 <pikhq> AnMaster: hg pull to get stuff from the hg repository. Make your changes, then hg bundle.
19:37:53 <pikhq> What GregorR said.
19:38:07 <GregorR> AnMaster: It can interp URLs. !befunge http://foo
19:38:30 <fizzie> Wahh, that reminds me that I never finished the HTTP client in fungot.
19:38:30 <fungot> fizzie: ' that was mean!' alice cried eagerly. ' you'll never guess! _i_ couldn't.' the leg of mutton before alice, who looked at it with great curiosity.
19:38:37 <fizzie> Yes, it is indeed mean.
19:51:18 * oerjan finds himself trapped inside tvtropes again
19:51:23 <AnMaster> soon done (on the cfunge build system side)
19:53:24 <AnMaster> interesting, cfunge with 23 MB RAM: Refuses to start. With 24 MB RAM: Can run all of mycology just fine.
19:54:25 <AnMaster> without ncurses 20 MB works fine
19:54:43 <AnMaster> $ (ulimit -v $(( 1024 * 19 )); ./cfunge ../../trunk/mycology/mycology.b98 )
19:54:43 <AnMaster> FATAL: Failed to process file "../../trunk/mycology/mycology.b98": Invalid argument
19:54:56 <AnMaster> the file exists. Just odd failure message at 19
19:55:06 <oerjan> do you check file size in advance, or is the initial allocation entirely constant?
19:55:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, well mycology fits into the static area of funge space. Which is the most commonly used area, located close to 0,0
19:56:27 <Deewiant> Mycology fits because you made the array barely large enough that it does :-P
19:56:29 <oerjan> oh but then the static area has constant size
19:56:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is a pain to debug too, since gdb can't do it. and calling setrlimit in main with those values doesn't do it either
19:56:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Rounded up to the next power of 2.
19:57:12 <AnMaster> mycology would fit in 256*1024
19:57:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, anything larger made memory usage absurdly high
19:57:39 <Deewiant> I suspect that if Mycology were 400 lines long that'd be 512*512 or 256*512
19:58:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, probably, Since it is the largest app I know of. You can adjust the values in funge-space.c if you need a larger program
19:58:30 <AnMaster> such as it must be a multiple of 16 bytes.
19:59:36 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
20:00:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, no perl? I should add a possibility to turn the PERL fingerprint off then I guess.
20:00:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Perl isn't esoteric.
20:00:32 <AnMaster> so the fingerprint would be useless in that chroot
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20:10:00 <AnMaster> without clock_gettime() (which on linux need librt, which in turn needs libpthreads) cfunge manages just fine with ulimit -v 15 even for mycology
20:10:35 <Deewiant> You're well on the way to writing an embedded Befunge-98 interp :-P
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20:12:41 <oerjan> too long since last time
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20:15:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway: I already had checks for ncurses (optional dependency) and clock_gettime() (fallback on gettimeofday()). Just not config options to disable them even if they were supported by the system.
20:20:58 <AnMaster> maybe a libm free variant Deewiant
20:21:20 <AnMaster> core doesn't (as far as I remember) need libm anywhere. Some fingerprints do.
20:25:37 <GregorR> AnMaster: Uhhh, wtf? It should not be possible for your interp to read or write arbitrary files, or run code that isn't in the isn't-this-harmless language of befunge :P
20:25:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, I do have such an option: -S for sandbox
20:26:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, however, it doesn't disable ncurses, since that is console IO only.
20:26:22 <AnMaster> but now I have such an option.
20:27:11 <AnMaster> GregorR, -S disables amongst other things: i and o, hides most (but not all) environment variables in y, fingerprints like SOCK, FILE and DIRF, ...)
20:31:29 <GregorR> Befunge (or rather cfunge) is terrifyingly powerful :P
20:33:12 <Deewiant> Bah, cfunge supports hardly any fingerprints :-P
20:36:19 <ehird> 10:54:49 <pikhq> Gregor a while back wrote a different bot. EgoBot is now a slight bit of patching on that.
20:39:46 <ehird> I liked the old, shitty code.
20:40:00 <GregorR> Then you'll love the new, shitty code.
20:40:15 <ehird> GregorR: It's too modular and not process-suspending enough
20:40:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, cfunge is powerful but all the dangerous bits can be disabled.
20:40:22 <ehird> Deewiant: I am to shit.
20:40:53 <ehird> Deewiant: Well yeah, I aim too, shit.
20:41:02 <AnMaster> without libm dependency cfunge manages to run mycology in 13 MB
20:41:05 * ehird downloads a debian installer cd
20:41:32 <GregorR> People use Debian installer CDs? :P
20:41:39 <GregorR> Oh, or do you mean a netinst CD?
20:41:49 <ehird> How else am I meant to install?
20:42:04 <AnMaster> disabling t should save a bit too
20:42:04 <GregorR> Netinst is THE way to install Debian. All other methods are EVIL.
20:42:17 <ehird> Anyway I'm just doing this inside a VM
20:42:25 <ehird> To see if the installer can do the crazy LVM2 shit I need
20:42:34 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, and she installs Debian with the DVDs, so what does that tell you!
20:42:53 * oerjan expects a face mention just about now, or would that be too obvious
20:42:57 <ehird> What's the fastest way to a lover's heart? A beautiful and stylish designer watch!
20:42:57 <ehird> http://foleyohev.cn
20:42:58 <ehird> At Diam0nd Reps we make it easy to get a Rolex, Cartier, Bvlgari or any brand name that you think of. As long as it is considered a high class watch, you will find it in our one of a kind store!
20:43:01 <ehird> http://foleyohev.cn
20:43:03 <ehird> Don't believe me? Click here to enter Diam0nd Reps right now, and see it with your very own eyes!
20:43:05 <ehird> oerjan: no, but your face would be
20:43:29 <GregorR> ....... do you often paste spam into #esoteric ?
20:44:05 <oerjan> it must be - irc script spam!
20:44:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this stripped down cfunge and without t, compiled with -O3 is 0.005s faster for "all fingerprints disabled, clean env, stdout to /dev/null" run of cfunge than the same but with libm, librt, and libncurses deps
20:44:39 <ehird> Deewiant: You're really on the offensive again me :P
20:44:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not when total time is 0m0.019s vs 0m0.24s
20:44:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not when total time is 0m0.019s vs 0m0.024s
20:45:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Wanna know who else went on the offensive against me?
20:45:23 <ehird> GregorR: OPTAMAZATION
20:45:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm working on a build for the bot yes.
20:45:29 <oerjan> ehird: well everyone knows the finns sided with hitler
20:45:42 <ehird> GregorR: Use rc/funge, it'll really annoy AnMaster.
20:45:55 <AnMaster> it doesn't (afair) have a sandbox mode
20:46:10 <ehird> And we all know GregorR cannot use LD_PRELOAD or patch C programs
20:46:11 <GregorR> I'm sure most of the interps that EgoBot runs are horribly unsafe :P
20:46:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: At least check the results for statistical significance: "If your benchmarks are not significant at the 95% confidence level, we don't want to hear about it", as the FreeBSD devs say.
20:46:20 <ehird> Or trust in #esoteric not to be dix
20:46:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I did. I did average of 50 runs
20:46:41 <ehird> AnMaster: irrelevant
20:46:54 <GregorR> ehird: I trust the people who are usually here, but not my evil enemies who happen to find out I have a bot here and come just to hax me.
20:47:02 <ehird> GregorR: Like ehird?
20:47:02 <AnMaster> standard variance was small, +/- 0.001s
20:47:05 <ehird> That guy's a jerk.
20:47:15 <GregorR> Yeah, he's a douchenozzle.
20:47:43 <ehird> Hypertacodouchenozzle maximus.
20:48:08 <oerjan> i believe nouns in -e are usually neuter, so that should be maximum.
20:48:21 <ehird> TIME FOR SOME NETINSTALL
20:48:26 <ehird> GregorR: Is using the graphical install a sin?
20:48:33 <ehird> Because I want to use the graphical install
20:49:21 <oerjan> ehird: i believe the bible says _nothing_ about graphical installs whatsoever. shocking, i know.
20:49:23 <ehird> GregorR: I need your priestly consultation.
20:49:29 <ehird> oerjan: church of debian.
20:49:36 <GregorR> ehird: Graphical install is tolerable so long as you use netinstall :P
20:49:47 <ehird> GregorR: I bet you use a tiling window manager.
20:49:56 <GregorR> I wish, there are no good ones.
20:50:06 <ehird> That's because the concept is fundamentally flawed
20:50:15 <GregorR> When I had a tablet PC I really wanted to find one, but they're all ultra-keyboard-bound, which sort of defeats the purpose of a tablet PC.
20:50:28 <pikhq> Of course, Ratpoison's nice for keeping full-screen windows. ;)
20:50:35 <ehird> lol@debian-installer has a prominent screenshot button
20:50:43 <pikhq> GregorR: Maybe you could get StumpWM to work for that?
20:50:49 <ehird> pikhq: but that's not useful! take a web browser - w/ a large screen the lines will be too long to comfortably read
20:50:51 <pikhq> (Lisp scriptable WM FTW?)
20:50:59 <ehird> most of the time you WANT windows smaller than your screen
20:51:34 <pikhq> I've had full-screen web browsing for ages.
20:51:57 <ehird> Either you have a tiny screen, your eyes hate you, or the sites you use have text columns smaller than full-sized :)
20:52:26 <pikhq> My eyes probably hate me.
20:52:46 <GregorR> People have argued that fullscreen browsing will become less popular/necessary as resolutions increase, but in my experience web page size/complexity is increasing faster :P
20:54:02 <ehird> [[Windows 7 leaps forward: "We were able to shave 400 milliseconds off the shutdown time by slightly trimming the WAV file shutdown music."]]
20:54:52 <ehird> Even Apple wouldn't brag about that
20:55:30 <ehird> Hey ho, hey ho, installing a-debian I go
20:55:43 <ehird> It didn't ask me whether I wanted testing...
20:56:20 <ehird> Graphical expert install. That looks right.
20:56:39 <ehird> ... codeword for "Please make the UI horrible."
20:57:20 <pikhq> The expert install is if you need to do rather screwy stuff. ;)
20:57:31 <ehird> 'cuz, you know, a button saying "Please give me testing instead" would just be too hard
20:58:15 <ehird> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/daily-builds/daily/arch-latest/i386/iso-cd/
20:59:55 <ehird> Anyway, I still think Debian and Ubuntu should merge.
21:00:08 <ehird> Take Debian, slap some of the Ubuntu polish on, bam.
21:00:44 <GregorR> I don't disagree, but then where would all the Canonical douchebaggery go?
21:00:54 <ehird> GregorR: Which douchebaggery?
21:01:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, now I'll try to add it to the bot. Where was the hg checkout url now again
21:01:01 <ehird> As far as I can tell Canonical just funds Ubuntu
21:01:10 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/
21:01:20 <GregorR> ehird: They're known for never contributing anything back to any upstream ever.
21:01:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, and. How do I test the bot. I understood I needed part of another checkout called multibot right?
21:01:33 <ehird> GregorR: Right, that is a big issue.
21:01:39 <ehird> AnMaster: RTFREADME
21:02:00 <ehird> AnMaster: RTFNEW_LANGUAGE
21:02:16 <GregorR> AnMaster: I may move multibot over, but for the moment it's in https://codu.org/projects/stuff/hg/
21:02:26 <GregorR> AnMaster: And to run it you need socat, because I'm E_LAZY :)
21:02:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, I have socat since ages.
21:03:25 <ehird> Stop! Debian testing time.
21:03:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, can't pull from https://codu.org/projects/stuff/hg/
21:03:39 <AnMaster> GregorR, abort: There is no Mercurial repository here (.hg not found)!
21:04:02 <AnMaster> $ hg pull https://codu.org/projects/stuff/hg/ stuff
21:04:02 <AnMaster> abort: There is no Mercurial repository here (.hg not found)!
21:04:34 <pikhq> I think just about anything that has gone from Ubuntu to upstream has been because of Debian hunting down the patches...
21:04:38 <GregorR> "Quay" is nolanguage for "what?"
21:04:56 <pikhq> GregorR: I thought it was a creative misspelling of Spanish.
21:04:58 <GregorR> Exactly, only in nolanguage :P
21:05:18 <GregorR> pikhq: No, it's pronounced kway, not kei
21:05:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, what naming scheme for befunge. Should the command/directory be befunge98 or cfunge?
21:05:38 <Deewiant> No, it's pronounced neither kway nor kei :-P
21:05:38 <ehird> Debian-Installer, la la la la.
21:05:41 <ehird> Installing testing.
21:05:47 <AnMaster> or should they not be the same
21:05:52 <ehird> AnMaster: {be,une}funge98.
21:06:01 <AnMaster> (as in command befunge98 and directory cfunge)
21:06:06 <AnMaster> ehird, cfunge doesn't do unefunge
21:06:13 <GregorR> Deewiant: It's pronounced between "keh" and "kei" sort of, but it's hard to write the Spanish spelling in English so shaddap X-P
21:06:31 <GregorR> AnMaster: It should be cfunge.
21:06:43 <GregorR> AnMaster: (The names that aren't consistent with that are olde :P )
21:07:05 <Deewiant> There's no 'i' in there that anybody could discern, IMO. :-P
21:07:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, one sec. What about license.
21:07:36 <GregorR> AnMaster: So long as it's F/OSS.
21:07:42 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't copyright such a small glue file.
21:07:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, right. cfunge is GPLv3
21:07:58 <GregorR> Oh, you mean the three-line glue file? :P
21:08:25 <AnMaster> I was wondering if there were issues with licenses on the interpreters.
21:08:37 <ehird> AnMaster: RMS probably considers a bot linking.
21:08:43 <ehird> See clisp fiasco...
21:08:49 <ehird> I'd like to take this opportunity to mention that the debian installer is niiiiice.
21:08:51 <GregorR> Who's "GPL is evil" style?
21:09:24 <ehird> I have never said "GPL is evil", ever.
21:09:30 <ehird> I just think it's stupid and misguided.
21:09:55 <GregorR> I think it's a good idea and sensible for some reasonable subset of software.
21:10:16 <GregorR> Although admittedly my definition of that subset seems to have dwindled to near-zero over time for my own stuff X-P
21:10:16 <AnMaster> I was making a summary of your MBs of anti-GPL rants for reasons of brevity.
21:10:41 <ehird> I do not rant about the GPL every time it is mentioned.
21:11:34 <GregorR> Is it just me, or are Pastry, Kademlia and Tapestry all the same but for some minor details X_X
21:12:11 <ehird> Is it just me, or is GregorR, his mom and his face all the same but for some minor details X_X
21:12:18 <ehird> BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURN
21:12:24 <AnMaster> GregorR, format for USED_VERSION differs a lot I see.
21:12:36 <AnMaster> something like http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ 0.4.0+bzr:trunk:r760
21:12:48 <GregorR> AnMaster: That's also changed over time ... URL version
21:12:51 <AnMaster> (I'm probably doing a 0.4.1 release later this week)
21:13:35 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, whirl is missing a USED_VERSION file
21:14:34 <ehird> GregorR: Ew, Debian doesn't use sudo by default.
21:14:37 <Deewiant> Do you look at your keyboard when you type, or something :-P
21:15:02 <GregorR> AnMaster: Lots of them are, I only started adding USED_VERSIONS files when I realized how stupid it was that I didn't have them X_X
21:15:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, hm cfunge only supports out of tree builds.
21:15:18 <GregorR> AnMaster: Those files are all olde, imported from the old EgoBot rather than their upstream source.
21:15:27 <ehird> My root password will be butt.
21:15:44 <GregorR> AnMaster: Then I suggest you make the Makefile do an out-of-tree build. Put it in a 'build' subdirectory if it allows in-subdirectory builds.
21:16:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, a compile.sh would work better. Since I need to invoke cmake as mentioned to create the makefile.
21:16:15 <AnMaster> well I could do a one-off Makefile
21:16:23 <AnMaster> but it might break with future versions.
21:16:29 <Deewiant> You can make a makefile that calls cmake...
21:16:37 <ehird> Deewiant: WHAT? Unpossible.
21:16:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a shell script for it is easier.
21:16:50 <ehird> How on earth? Make calls sh!
21:17:24 <ehird> Your call is so complex that typing \s becomes an issue, AnMaster?
21:17:27 <ehird> Your build system sucks.
21:17:56 <ehird> No, I'm seriously gobsmacked.
21:18:08 <kerlo> Indeed, "que" has no "i" sound in it, except when spoken by people whose native tongues always have "i" after "e".
21:18:11 <AnMaster> If you aren't happy with it submit a patch. Or if GregorR isn't happy with it, I can convert it I guess.
21:18:12 <ehird> Your build system is shit if making it work scriptedly requires so many lines that \ is a pain.
21:18:26 <ehird> kerlo: "hello" has no i...
21:18:42 <pikhq> kerlo: ... English always has /i/ after /e/?
21:18:48 <pikhq> That's news to me.
21:19:08 <pikhq> No wonder I'm told I speak somewhat oddly.
21:19:24 <ehird> I find that, sometimes, the easiest explanation is that the assertion is wrong.
21:19:39 <kerlo> Do you have a specific accent?
21:20:19 <pikhq> With personal quirks, from moving so @#%@# much.
21:20:30 <kerlo> I think the long "a" is usually /ei/, and no other phoneme (or whatever you call them) contains /e/.
21:21:06 <ehird> SHA-1 collisions in 2^52: http://eurocrypt2009rump.cr.yp.to/837a0a8086fa6ca714249409ddfae43d.pdf
21:21:36 <pikhq> Damned vowel shift.
21:22:09 <pikhq> The main thing seperating us from Middle English.
21:22:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, what GCC version do you have
21:22:21 <pikhq> And the main thing making our spelling so weird.
21:22:37 <GregorR> AnMaster: Idonno, 4.whatever-installs-in-debootstrap-squeeze
21:22:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, ok... 3.4 and later should all work
21:23:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about cmake? cmake 2.6 or later is needed.
21:23:33 <ehird> AnMaster: You srsly think Debian has a gcc older than 4?
21:23:38 <ehird> Now THAT's trolling.
21:23:52 <ehird> 21:22 GregorR: AnMaster: Idonno, 4.whatever-installs-in-debootstrap-squeeze
21:23:57 <ehird> he said that before you said 3.4
21:24:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't know *before* that reply.
21:24:04 <ehird> also, centos is modern
21:24:39 <GregorR> They do when they're non-Debian-using idiots I guess. ^^
21:25:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, should I dump the whole source into the egobot tree or should I remove test and example programs and documentation (man page and such) first.
21:26:06 <ehird> La la la, 6min32s remaining
21:26:29 <GregorR> AnMaster: Just dump the whole source in, that should make it marginally easier to merge in later changes.
21:26:55 <pikhq> For a while, Debian Stable had a newer GCC version than Gentoo...
21:26:57 <AnMaster> GregorR, a plain bzr export is 1.1 MB according to du -sh :) 826K if you use -bsh
21:27:06 <pikhq> (Gentoo recently jumped from 4.1 to 4.3)
21:27:24 <GregorR> AnMaster: WTFBBQ? That's a huge fekking program (assuming that doesn't include bzr control files?)
21:27:33 <ehird> GregorR: His code is bloated with inline asm.
21:27:41 <ehird> And other ridiculous optimizations.
21:27:48 <ehird> Just go for CCBI2 fi you want to keep your sanity.
21:27:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, no bzr control files. But it is a lot less if I strip all the doxygen comments.
21:28:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you missed the bit about no sandbox.
21:28:01 <ehird> You, after all, can get a D environment working
21:28:11 <ehird> AnMaster: GregorR is so crap at coding D
21:28:19 <ehird> he couldn't possibly disable a few fingerprints and comment out some instructions
21:28:20 <AnMaster> but why would he want to do that
21:28:22 <ehird> it'd be impossible
21:29:52 <ehird> rm -f horse_porn.avi
21:31:09 <GregorR> find porn -type f | grep -i horse | xargs mplayer -fs -shuffle
21:32:47 <AnMaster> ok I got a makefile working for it. Just to irritate ehird. It is twice as long as the shell script.
21:33:17 <ehird> AnMaster: making a shell script a makefile is adding \s and prefixing with tabs, and adding a single rule
21:33:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm doing it idiomatically!
21:35:09 <AnMaster> ok if I really make the code dense it is just 3 lines longer than the shell script. But the shell script isn't dense.
21:36:54 <AnMaster> http://pastebin.ca/1408848 http://pastebin.ca/1408850
21:37:13 <ehird> You've really got something to prove, haven't you?
21:37:25 <AnMaster> ehird, the make one actually looks nicer.
21:37:38 <AnMaster> but I think the logic is easier to follow in the shell one.
21:37:49 <ehird> Only if you're an imperative weenie.
21:37:55 <ehird> .PHONEY: clean all
21:38:08 <AnMaster> ehird, thanks for the bug report.
21:38:21 <ehird> Also, they idiomatically go before the definitions.
21:38:38 <AnMaster> ehird, no? I always seem them at the end
21:38:47 * GregorR finds the Makefile much clearer.
21:38:49 <ehird> AnMaster: See gnu make manual.
21:39:33 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. The fact that iirc automess puts it at the end means nothing indeed.
21:40:04 -!- Leonidas has quit ("An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader").
21:40:05 <ehird> AnMaster: BTW, Debian _has_ a rolling release system (you've dissed it on that point before)
21:40:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that is rather unstable though
21:40:19 <ehird> (er, that is, sid/unstable, <varies>/testing)
21:40:20 <ehird> AnMaster: not testing
21:40:28 <AnMaster> ehird, testing is rolling release too? Hm ok
21:40:32 <ehird> packages from sid go into testing when they're stable for a few weeks
21:40:40 <ehird> AnMaster: then, testing freezes gradually every year or so
21:40:44 <ehird> and is declared the stable release
21:41:11 <ehird> How is it at all bad?
21:41:19 <ehird> It's rolling-release.
21:41:20 <AnMaster> ehird, "testing freezes gradually every year or so"
21:41:36 <ehird> AnMaster: That's just for a week or so.
21:41:40 <ehird> To become the stable release.
21:41:43 <AnMaster> that bit sounds a bit inconvinient. (sp?)
21:41:48 <ehird> I'm sure you can do without minor updates for a week
21:41:49 <AnMaster> ehird, a week or so, ok I guess.
21:41:54 <GregorR> ehird: Except when the release is lenny, then it's for a month or so X-P
21:42:04 <ehird> GregorR: Mishaps happen :P
21:42:11 <AnMaster> btw anyone remember the long wait between woody and etch
21:42:20 <AnMaster> or whatever it was after woody
21:42:25 <ehird> AnMaster: btw anyone remember the long wait between $debian_release and $other_debian_release
21:42:39 <ehird> GregorR calls debian stable debian obsolete :-)
21:43:00 <GregorR> Mind you, it has its place :P
21:43:05 <GregorR> It just happens to be obsolete.
21:43:24 <GregorR> (Some businesses basically count on all their systems being obsolete because then nothing ever has to change)
21:43:36 <pikhq> I use it for my router.
21:43:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, you asked about size and bzr control files before. .bzr directory is 6.3 MB
21:43:41 <GregorR> "This system is obsolete." "Yeah, but it was obsolete two years ago and worked fine then."
21:43:57 <pikhq> Which is something that I honestly don't care about being recent, I just want it to work.
21:44:07 <pikhq> And, well, Debian stable Just Works(tm).
21:44:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, but remember cfunge had over 750 revisions.
21:44:31 <GregorR> AnMaster: That is something I remember, being a piece of information I have never seen until this point.
21:44:46 <AnMaster> oh you mean the version string
21:45:19 <GregorR> No, actually, I was being sarcastic, but thanks for pointing out that in fact I have seen that >_<
21:45:38 <ehird> GregorR: I remember that you're pink.
21:46:33 <GregorR> That is roughly the skin color of "white" people, yes.
21:46:38 <AnMaster> ehird, should I place the entry in the interps/Makefile for cfunge in dictionary order or at the end?
21:46:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Logical order.
21:47:41 * ehird watches debian-installer go.
21:49:05 <AnMaster> GregorR, can you pass arguments to the interpreter.
21:49:11 <GregorR> AnMaster: alphabetical. Recall that EgoBot is my code :P
21:49:21 <ehird> GregorR: Your mom is your code.
21:49:24 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yes. interp_file "./interps/foo/bar -bleh -forp"
21:49:32 <ehird> Oh, I thought you meant like
21:49:36 <ehird> Cfunge's actual makefile
21:49:37 <ehird> Not egobot's makefile
21:49:44 <AnMaster> GregorR, I should add a space to the file name ;P
21:50:00 <ehird> Your mom should add a space to the file name.
21:50:08 <AnMaster> except it would probably break cmake.
21:50:08 <GregorR> AnMaster: Well then that won't work, but gee, it's almost as if I've intentionally set it up so there are no spaces.
21:50:34 <AnMaster> GregorR, btw, do you support passing stdin from irc. Like:
21:51:08 <GregorR> I could add that as a special case for e.g. bf, but not as a general case.
21:51:17 <GregorR> I don't support it generally mainly because I don't know how I want to handle that (and because it kills the program after
21:52:12 <AnMaster> hm I guess [] is valid. Just no one writes it.
21:52:37 <ehird> Many people write it for infinite loops.
21:52:51 <AnMaster> ehird, true. But it isn't something you often see.
21:52:57 <EgoBot> Supported commands: bf_txtgen help info 1l 2l adjust axo bch befunge bf bf16 bf32 bf8 dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
21:53:32 <AnMaster> time a lot of programs so all finish at once with output
21:53:40 <AnMaster> you have 30 secons for the input
21:53:48 <AnMaster> then watch as it flood off when all is output at once
21:53:56 <AnMaster> GregorR, or do you rate limit it properly?
21:54:06 <GregorR> I rate limit it very simply.
21:55:11 <AnMaster> oh you want to disable TURT too. Will add that.
21:57:49 <ehird> GregorR: you know, I never thought I'd use Debian on a desktop. Ever. Why must you crush my world? Dick :(
21:59:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Because he's made me like it, with his evil mind tricksies.
22:00:15 <ehird> Should be illegal to do such a thing.
22:00:37 <AnMaster> 3DSP BASE CPLI DATE FING FIXP FPDP FPSP FRTH HRTI INDV JSTR MODU NULL ORTH REFC REXP ROMA STRN SUBR TIME TOYS
22:00:44 <AnMaster> those should be safe right Deewiant ?
22:01:06 <ehird> Deewiant: He's going to run a nuclear reactor on befunge
22:01:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no file or socket IO to begin with,
22:01:25 <pikhq> He's going to run all the nuclear reactors on Befunge.
22:01:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or other stuff you wouldn't want in egobot.
22:01:48 <AnMaster> TOYS generate an svg file with a fixed name.
22:02:15 <ehird> OH GOD DEBIAN IS BREAKING
22:02:20 <ehird> Oh god, Debian has a text-only bootup.
22:02:25 * ehird pulls self together.
22:02:33 <ehird> It just didn't recognize my virtual audio card.
22:03:12 <Deewiant> Ah right, you don't implement it
22:03:16 <ehird> My system had a kernel failure, apparently :<
22:03:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it isn't very useful either IMO.
22:03:45 <ehird> Um, I can't change my system resolution. Wtf Debian?
22:03:52 <Deewiant> A deque is noticeably handier than a stack
22:04:28 <ehird> Oh god it comes with Epiphany
22:04:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh right THAT was why I didn't implement it.
22:05:06 <Deewiant> And I've occasionally felt the want for switchmode
22:05:15 <Deewiant> Hovermode is more a curiosity, I admit
22:05:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the IP mode thingy I don't have anything much against. the deque bit though...
22:05:34 <Deewiant> Although it's not completely useless either
22:10:36 * AnMaster reads on how to setup the bot.
22:12:09 <AnMaster> GregorR, there is no makefile for multibot?
22:12:39 <GregorR> gcc multibot.c -o multibot -levent
22:13:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, and then just copy the binary into egobot ?
22:13:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, it doesn't like -Wall -Wextra ;P
22:13:48 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:13:59 <GregorR> Wha? Does for me, I always compile it that way to make sure it's sensible ...
22:14:24 <AnMaster> which might not be the same thing
22:15:49 <AnMaster> some unused parameters, comparsion between signed and unsigned
22:16:14 <ehird> Grr, virtualbox guest additions needs linux 2.6.27
22:17:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, "Use: multibot <user> <channel>", but where do I set the network
22:17:59 <ehird> You don't, I assume.
22:18:03 <ehird> Or, you use socat.
22:19:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, got an example command for it? socat have so many ways to run apps in
22:19:56 <GregorR> socat TCP4:irc.freenode.net:6667 EXEC:'./multibot MrMultiBot esoteric'
22:20:09 <ehird> GregorR: wow, debian now have a Really Please Break This distro
22:20:26 <GregorR> ehird: sid was too stable.
22:22:07 <ehird> AnMaster: experimenta
22:23:32 <AnMaster> yay it works (tested on a local test ircd)
22:23:49 <AnMaster> (because I'm too lazy to setup anything more secure than "separate user"
22:24:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, shouldn't you setup ignore for all those *.bin or something
22:25:39 <AnMaster> not that I know how hg does ignore
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22:27:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, one per dir, or one at top of tree
22:27:31 <AnMaster> (the latter is how .bzrignore is done)
22:28:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes. What is the syntax. I mean if I do ./foo in .bzrignore it means "only when relative tree root"
22:30:29 <kerlo> Is there a depressant that targets the area of the brain that converts words into keystrokes?
22:30:47 <kerlo> I suffer from typing-words-that-I-mean-to-type-later-on-but-not-now-itis.
22:32:11 -!- ehird_ has joined.
22:33:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, making sure the .hgignore works now. Not perfect but a good start.
22:34:02 <AnMaster> GregorR, http://pastebin.ca/1408922
22:34:15 <GregorR> I never use hgignore. I find that when people count on it working, it doesn't, and they don't count on it working when it's not there :P
22:34:50 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm doing this commit thingy now. How do I set proper author/commiter/whatever for hg?
22:35:28 <GregorR> echo -e '[ui]\nusername = Your Name <Email@foo.com>' > ~/.hgrc
22:36:02 <AnMaster> seems I already have that file
22:36:16 <AnMaster> contains "[extensions]\nhgext.transplant=\nhgext.gpg="
22:36:23 <AnMaster> where \n is replaced of course
22:37:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, are you happy with one in the format of: username = Arvid Norlander <anmaster NO SPAM AT tele2 DOT (TLD for Sweden)>
22:37:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Those pesky hg-cloning spambots.
22:38:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Because spam bots can't remove nospam, and replace at and dot.
22:38:30 <ehird> That's just too advanced for them, they've been working on it for years.
22:38:35 <AnMaster> ehird, they can. But I have yet to see the TLD bit.
22:38:52 <ehird> AnMaster: So I assume you don't run a spam filter.
22:38:53 <AnMaster> there are tricks like that AIS uses too
22:39:02 <ehird> Yes. They're stupid too.
22:39:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I do. But I prefer to get as little as possible anwyay.
22:39:54 <ehird> I encrypt my email with AES.
22:40:00 <ehird> The address that is.
22:40:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge.bundle
22:40:56 <ehird_> Time to install a Weasel of Ice.
22:41:21 <ehird_> Oh, I have it already.
22:41:23 <AnMaster> GregorR, I hope that bundle is correct. file says "data".
22:41:56 <AnMaster> since it says "compressed" in hg help bundle I would have expected something like "gziped data" or such from file
22:42:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, that one doesn't include the .hgignore file
22:43:15 <AnMaster> GregorR, tell me if you have any issues with it. I'm around for about 40 more minutes before going to bed.
22:43:24 <ehird> GregorR: can you make debian use gksudo instead of the gksu?
22:47:04 <AnMaster> it is HG10 followed by bzip2 file
22:48:29 <kerlo> BitTorrent is cute.
22:48:48 <kerlo> "I'm bored, so I'm going to upload this 2-gigabyte game 21 times, 'kay?"
22:49:20 <kerlo> Hmm, I wonder if I should say something on-topic at some point.
22:50:05 <AnMaster> kerlo, write a befunge-93 interpreter (no IO but meh) in subleq?
22:54:24 -!- ehird_ has quit ("Ex-Chat").
22:57:42 <kerlo> That wouldn't be saying something on-topic.
22:58:06 <AnMaster> kerlo, true, would be doing on topic
23:00:29 <AnMaster> hg is a lot easier to use than git IMO. Things are named pretty much like you expect them. Some differences to bzr, svn, darcs and so on of course. But they are still pretty logical. No odd "add files already tracked" for example (yes there is the -a option for git, but that isn't what you would have expected). Easy to figure out errors (not that errors are as common as with git either). Only think th
23:00:30 <AnMaster> at is slightly irritating is hg merge after hg pull instead of auto merging if you have no local changes compared to the branch you are pulling from.
23:01:46 <Deewiant> I think I'll agree with ehird and say "familiarity is not intuitiveness"
23:02:00 <Deewiant> Or, in this case, s/intuitiveness/logicality/
23:02:01 <AnMaster> IMO you shouldn't need to read manuals for version control systems in general. Once you learned one DVCS it should be a simple matter of reading a list of "what is the command called in this one". About half a screen at most.
23:02:16 <ehird> Deewiant: Stop trying to make AnMaster not find every oppertunity to dis git; it's an instinct of his, part of the "Be a Complete Moron" package.
23:02:21 <Deewiant> What you're saying is that all VCSs should be identical
23:02:29 <Deewiant> Except for their command names
23:02:37 <ehird> The customer may choose any VCS he likes, so long as it is bzr.
23:02:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Well no. options can differ of course.
23:02:54 <AnMaster> But point is, user interface should be compatible.
23:03:16 <Deewiant> That's like saying that you should only need to learn one language, all others should be compatible
23:03:38 <AnMaster> it shouldn't be like the difference between emacs and vi. it should be like the difference between vi and vim, or emacs or xemacs, or nano and pico
23:03:43 <Deewiant> You can't have a compatible user interface if you do things fundamentally differently
23:04:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then provide a compatibility wrapper.
23:04:16 <ehird> AnMaster: http://hg-git.github.com/
23:04:18 <AnMaster> in fact I'm going to check bzr-git out and use that.
23:04:19 <ehird> There's your newspeak.
23:04:20 <Deewiant> Sure, I'll wrap Haskell for VB compatibility
23:04:28 <ehird> But you're an idiot btw.
23:04:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm sure you do. It was just released today.
23:04:46 <ehird> And more or less only reddit knows about it.
23:04:49 <ehird> I'm sure you knew.
23:04:56 <AnMaster> ehird, um... I heard about it in #mercurial
23:05:09 <ehird> Last I heard you disliked hg.
23:05:19 <AnMaster> ehird, correction: I *prefer* bzr
23:05:49 <ehird> Regardless, you're saying that we should not be able to use a superior UI because it's not one you've used before.
23:06:05 <ehird> In response, I say, fuck you; if everyone followed that, we'd be using a UI identical to DOS.
23:06:06 <AnMaster> ehird, You have a flaw in that argument.
23:06:37 <AnMaster> ehird, so are you when you are claming bzr's UI isn't better then.
23:06:58 <ehird> Deewiant: do you think he'll go into another tirade if I say "whoosh"?
23:07:11 <Deewiant> An opinion on an UI is one thing; claiming that a software should provide a compatible UI for users of other software is quite another.
23:07:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm saying that confusing UI and steep learning curve are not features. But bugs.
23:07:40 <pikhq> ehird: No, we'd be using a UI identical to UNIX or something older.
23:07:50 <ehird> AnMaster: So you don't want emacs to exist?
23:07:55 <AnMaster> yes I think darcs fail here by calling it "recording" instead of "commit" for no good reason.
23:07:56 <ehird> After all, it has a steep learning curve for notepad users.
23:08:06 <ehird> Emacs should provide a Notepad compatible UI.
23:08:13 <ehird> And if it doesn't, that's a bug.
23:08:14 <pikhq> (remember: DOS's UI was intended as an imitation of the Bourne shell. It did so poorly. ;))
23:08:17 <AnMaster> ehird, almost. emacs in X is close.
23:08:18 <Deewiant> viper-mode and vimpulse both suck for vim users
23:08:19 <ehird> In fact, everyone should use notepad UIs.
23:08:26 <ehird> As different UIs are bad.
23:08:29 <pikhq> ehird: Notepad should offer an Emacs-compatible UI, you mean.
23:08:31 <ehird> Meanwhile, you're still an idiot. β
23:08:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I used BBEdit on classic Mac OS before I used emacs.
23:08:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Confusing and steep are subjective issues and hence can't be bugs.
23:08:53 <AnMaster> it wasn't too large difference.
23:09:16 <Deewiant> Certainly, if practically everybody agrees that something is confusing then something is probably wrong.
23:09:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Compared to main one currently. Which is svn.
23:09:35 <AnMaster> do you think there is a reason for svn using similar command names to cvs?
23:09:43 <Deewiant> The goal of git is not to replace svn.
23:10:04 <pikhq> I thought the goal of git was to replace BitKeeper. ;)
23:10:20 <AnMaster> yes it was. Sad thing is it spread outside kernel development.
23:10:34 <pikhq> Eh, better than BitKeeper spreading.
23:10:42 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, there are at least two good reasons: 1. they share paradigms, 2. SVN was intended as a free alternative of CVS
23:10:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, I can't argue with that
23:10:54 <pikhq> (damned Larry McVoy is still trying to push that on Tcl... :()
23:11:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um. CVS was, and is, free?
23:11:26 <AnMaster> you must meant "visual source safe" or something?
23:11:37 <Deewiant> I thought its license wasn't free but maybe I misremembered
23:11:48 <Deewiant> s/a free/an/ then, same difference
23:12:59 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: source code of CVS was submitted to FSF and has been hosted by FSF long ago.
23:13:29 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so what was Deewiant thinking about
23:14:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, removing all extra docs/examples/tests except LICENSE and CREDITS from cfunge source reduced size to 708K
23:15:45 <AnMaster> well I include build system and license and such too
23:15:49 <lifthrasiir> anyway i think both git and hg have its pros and cons, and they were indeed developed with each other's influences
23:16:06 <lifthrasiir> so i don't care that flame war as long as they are improved together.
23:16:09 <AnMaster> with only what is needed to build it is 605K
23:16:25 <Deewiant> 100K for the build system? Sheesh. :-P
23:16:25 <AnMaster> 628K if you want the tools to generate new fingerprints and update fingerprint list
23:16:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 78K for the LICENSE file
23:16:58 <Deewiant> All that for 5x the speed and 0.1x the features ;-P
23:17:25 <AnMaster> I removed docs, examples and test cases
23:17:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the ohcount stats for it
23:17:49 <Deewiant> Total 56 7195 1015 12.4% 2111 10321
23:17:56 <lifthrasiir> hey, python has no build system except for tiny setup.py! ;)
23:18:03 <AnMaster> c 108 11503 4734 29.2% 2222 18459
23:18:05 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: ccbi.rf is 70 bytes
23:18:09 <AnMaster> Total 113 12145 5037 29.3% 2372 19554
23:18:27 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: That's my build system :-P
23:18:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as you can see. I have a much higher comment ratio
23:18:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the actual source code lines are not that much more.
23:19:10 <pikhq> Bah. Stick it all on a single line.
23:19:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that includes those maintenance shell scripts
23:19:17 <Deewiant> Arguably comments shouldn't be removed entirely from the equation.
23:19:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes. Nor blank lines
23:20:00 <Deewiant> My blank-lines ratio is much higher :-P
23:20:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and your code is a lot denser than mine *seds away all the assert*
23:21:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, another thing. D has a larger standard library
23:21:50 <AnMaster> so for example my DATE is more complex
23:21:57 <AnMaster> needing to do the same calculations as yours
23:22:12 <AnMaster> you do it like Tango.Date.ConvertToJulian
23:22:33 <AnMaster> while I had to implement it in terms of libc functions
23:22:36 <Deewiant> Consider getting a date library? :-P
23:22:42 <Deewiant> You don't /have/ to implement everything from scratch
23:23:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't implement all from scratch. Considered using ncurses for TERM?
23:23:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway if I exclude lib the number is closer to your
23:23:34 <AnMaster> c 95 8709 3539 28.9% 1594 13842
23:23:43 <Deewiant> Which, I guess, implies curses anyway
23:24:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lib contains hash library and string concat library. Oh and XML generating one for TURT.
23:24:56 <Deewiant> And I've still got twice the amount of fingerprints + unefunge + trefunge + befunge93 :-P
23:25:05 <AnMaster> and I even have fewer modules than you do. You have to have the number. Since each *.c has a *.h file (roughly, there are a few *.h with no *.c)
23:25:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, How much does the deque thing in MODE slow you down
23:26:14 <Deewiant> I don't know, I can't remember a time when I didn't have a deque thing.
23:26:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, slower than plain stack I assume?
23:28:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where is the main bottle neck in ccbi btw? I assume you have profiled.
23:29:07 <Deewiant> Which probably means Funge-Space access.
23:29:41 <AnMaster> yes I guess so. But even with no static funge-space I don't have a huge malloc() overhead... Oh wait I use memory pools. Right.
23:30:40 <Deewiant> As we recently discovered with that 30-MB Gutenberg file, D's hash maps appear to suck a lot more than yours.
23:31:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes. And the hash library I use is pretty sucky IMO. I mean linked lists! Instead of rehashing with another algorithm and trying somewhere else.
23:31:35 <AnMaster> only way to make it reasonable is to use a large initial size.
23:32:25 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: but you can make your own hash in D. i cannot.
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23:32:27 <Deewiant> Nice, just enough for all of Mycology.
23:32:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the code of the hash library is a mess IMO.
23:32:35 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: It didn't actually help much.
23:32:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, It uses CRC32. There would be collisions.
23:33:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Most of them are accessed only once.
23:33:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway if you gave me an example of a real befunge program that was larger...
23:33:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe that is why mycology fits "just in"
23:34:18 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: And actually, that same hash has since been added to the stdlib so my code probably slows it down :-P
23:34:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually ^ul in fungot can run way out of static space
23:34:25 <fungot> AnMaster: " no, she never does, i'm fnord this is always done however fnord fnord: to fnord on capital, you know!'
23:34:36 <AnMaster> but I would need 128 MB for the static space to fit it in
23:34:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: slowdown.b98's purpose is to pull stuff out of your static space :-P
23:34:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and I manage that just fine :P
23:35:09 <Deewiant> Sure, I didn't expect it to blow up or anything
23:35:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just a lot slower of course
23:35:39 <AnMaster> <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: but you can make your own hash in D. i cannot. <-- why not
23:35:56 <Deewiant> I was thinking that it'd even the diff between CCBI and cfunge but that didn't really work out
23:36:02 <AnMaster> so you could write your own FASTBIGHASH
23:36:11 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: technically i can make it, but it will be much slower. and i don't like C modules basically.
23:36:20 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, why will it be much slower.
23:36:30 <Deewiant> I didn't realize that it spends a million iterations in the main area which just increases the gap due to cfunge's static area
23:36:41 <Deewiant> And of course I didn't realize the shrinking-bounds issue
23:36:46 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, iirc all calls, even for internal modules use the same calling convention. Which is far from optimal
23:37:10 <AnMaster> METH_O, VARARGS and a few more iirc
23:37:41 <lifthrasiir> if i want i can write the better funge.space module in C, but that's not my way
23:37:48 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> I was thinking that it'd even the diff between CCBI and cfunge but that didn't really work out <-- :D
23:38:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and then there is the slow hash library of yours
23:38:20 <lifthrasiir> of course someone can replace funge.space with C module and that IS my goal, though ;)
23:38:27 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, true. efunge avoids loadable modules too.
23:38:58 <AnMaster> since it is intended as the raw table backend of the erlang mnesia database
23:39:05 <AnMaster> but you can use just ets directly
23:39:20 <AnMaster> I used a dict initially. A LOT slower.
23:39:36 <AnMaster> I'm talking about a 10 second difference there.
23:39:51 <AnMaster> <lifthrasiir> of course someone can replace funge.space with C module and that IS my goal, though ;) <-- hm?
23:40:03 <AnMaster> you mean if someone else do it
23:40:35 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: "i won't do it but someone can do if he/she really wants"
23:40:47 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, and then you would use it... I see
23:41:28 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, do you implement TURT yet
23:42:26 <AnMaster> you meant "no, but will implement before 0.5 final" right?
23:43:24 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, python -O made no difference for pyfunge it seems
23:43:37 * AnMaster wonders what -O is supposed to do
23:44:42 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: i'm not sure but it is supposed to optimize bytecode iirc.
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23:46:18 <lifthrasiir> it doesn't make a big difference and sometimes made the program slow, for example pyfunge.
23:47:17 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, hm your test suite programs (just testing them) doesn't output newline at the end?
23:47:44 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: for convenient editing, yes. you have to append newline to *.expected files.
23:48:23 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I would append newline to the test suite output to reduce the confusion of messing up my terminal when I'm testing cfunge on it
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23:48:55 <AnMaster> ~/funges/interpreters/pyfunge/tests/befunge98/iterate-zero.b98 that sounds like one of mine
23:49:15 <AnMaster> yes I have an iterate-zero.b98 too
23:50:04 <lifthrasiir> i made it for completeness, and i'm just trying to make all tests for all commands
23:51:04 <lifthrasiir> surely mycology does good job, but it doesn't test obscure cases which made pyfunge incompliant sometimes.
23:51:33 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, sure your sysinfo one is correct?
23:52:07 <lifthrasiir> what do you mean, befunge98/sysinfo.b98 test or "y" command implementation of pyfunge?
23:52:08 <fizzie> Grepping for Py_OptimizeFlag doesn't show that the -O flag would do much more than turn off __debug__ and discard asserts.
23:52:24 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir: I get BAD: 18y and 19y (offset to greatest point) didn't push <91, 42> from it.
23:52:49 <AnMaster> and I pass mycology correctly.
23:53:13 <AnMaster> I don't know. Too late to try to figure out that code
23:53:43 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, do you have any automated runner script for then
23:53:58 <AnMaster> that is better with mycology. Just a few files.
23:54:11 <lifthrasiir> pyfunge-test is for it, but not so useful for testing other interpreter than pyfunge
23:54:36 <AnMaster> could you not just change the name of the interpreter executable in it
23:55:43 <lifthrasiir> you can, but some tests contain different options which don't match with other one
23:56:34 <lifthrasiir> *.options file, if present, gives additional option to pyfunge when tested
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23:57:02 <lifthrasiir> iirc there are two or three tests use it for testing custom division-by-zero behavior in befunge-93 mode.
23:58:21 <lifthrasiir> i have to separate pyfunge-specific tests and other tests clearly, but that will be done later
23:58:37 <lifthrasiir> its primary purpose is testing pyfunge right now ;)
23:58:39 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, "BAD: null character reflects"
23:58:47 <AnMaster> where does it say in 93 that it shouldn't
23:59:45 <AnMaster> not that I implement anything but an option to disable SGML spaces for 93