←2009-02 2009-03 2009-04→ ↑2009 ↑all
2009-03-01
00:00:03 <ehird> #ifdef LNR
00:00:05 <ehird> are the parts that do that
00:00:11 <Random832> what if it modifies the cell it loops on?
00:00:23 * Random832 wasn't sure because of that
00:00:24 <ehird> as long as it has balanced < and > and does no IO, you can reduce it trivially
00:01:30 <oerjan> "trivially" may be a bit strong
00:01:46 <ehird> everything is trivial apart from uncomputable things
00:02:12 <oerjan> also, who killed the wiki again?
00:03:27 <oerjan> it always comes back when i complain here
00:05:15 <ais523> <invalid_user_name> What do you mean "even GNU"? GNU is the anti-unix, and have always gone 100% exactly the opposite of unix standards.
00:07:48 <ehird> ais523: it's FUD but it's not totally off..
00:08:14 <ais523> well, even the name claims not to be UNIX
00:08:28 <ais523> it's UNIX-compatible, but does seem to like doing things differently, I'm not sure if that's good or bad
00:08:33 <ais523> in fact, I suspect it's just different
00:10:03 <Random832> what exactly does GNU do differently that you can't find being done three or more different ways across all things that are called unix?
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00:10:33 <ehird> oerjan:
00:10:34 <ais523> Random832: adding more features than the UNIX things normally have
00:10:34 <ehird> # foo.x().y();;
00:10:35 <ehird> Error: This expression has type unit but is here used with type ('a, 'b) foo
00:10:41 <ehird> so, yeah, that syntax doesn't work :(
00:10:43 <ais523> many people who admire UNIX don't like bloat
00:10:57 <Random832> such as...?
00:11:03 <ehird> Random832: ls --help
00:11:16 <ehird> compare to
00:11:17 <ehird> usage: ls [-ABCFGHLPRSTWabcdefghiklmnopqrstuwx1] [file ...]
00:11:22 <ehird> heck, true --help
00:11:24 <ehird> echo --help
00:11:27 <ehird> the list is endless
00:11:37 <Random832> that's uniformity
00:11:48 <ehird> look at their _output_
00:11:48 <Random832> (the one place that behavior violates standards is yes --help)
00:11:51 <ehird> that's bloat
00:11:54 <ehird> also, no, echo --help too
00:12:08 <Random832> no, echo isn't guaranteed to echo back if it's passed an argument beginning with a hyphen
00:12:28 <Random832> (and isn't echo a shell builtin anyway?)
00:12:44 <ais523> Random832: it's a shell builtin but also a program
00:12:54 <ais523> you can deliberately use the non-builtin version by writing /bin/echo
00:12:56 <Random832> yeah, but you can't invoke the program with just "echo"
00:13:06 <Random832> and i don't think /bin/... is guaranteed by the unix standard
00:13:28 <Random832> ("command echo" might be - i'd have to look it up)
00:14:41 <Random832> whatever. BSD is unix and their echo uses -n
00:14:50 <ehird> er, echo -n is standard UNIX
00:15:13 <Random832> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xcu/echo.html
00:15:13 <ehird> http://www.sixwordstories.net/
00:15:29 <ehird> Random832: plan9 supports -n; so it's UNIXy enough for me
00:15:53 <Random832> yeah, well, that just means that violating the unix standard in minor ways is a unix tradition
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02:08:08 <Sgeo> How TF was this one discovered? http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-5679392-11-17
02:09:05 <kerlo> What do you mean by "discovered"?
02:09:24 <oerjan> randomly, of course
02:09:31 <oerjan> and this time it's no joke :)
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02:10:38 <oerjan> kerlo: it's the oldest entry in mezzacotta's hall of fame
02:11:02 <oerjan> of course traffic was higher in those days. recently the hall of fame doesn't even update daily.
02:11:21 <oerjan> so there were more people to search for it. :)
02:11:36 <oerjan> (or :/ if you look at the current state)
02:12:42 <oerjan> of course if you want to help, just hit the random or best bakes page and vote
02:13:54 <oerjan> DMM explained on forum hall of fame requires >= 50 voters and >= 80% bakedness
02:15:27 <kerlo> Hmm. I think I've suddenly figured out why most of these aren't funny.
02:15:30 <oerjan> the problem appears to be no. voters, as the whole left side > 80%
02:16:37 <oerjan> (the right side lists doesn't seem to exclude hall of fame members)
02:16:44 <oerjan> *don't
02:17:04 <oerjan> kerlo: because they're random?
02:17:13 <kerlo> Yes.
02:22:20 <oerjan> also of course even the things that _were_ funny the first time around tend to be repeated
02:22:32 <oerjan> until they no longer are
02:25:22 * oerjan votes on the upper right list too, since he's there
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06:52:08 <Asztal> wow, someone decided to go the extra mile with the extra-www thing:
06:52:10 <Asztal> http://www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.www.m.trainingpacks.co.uk/
06:52:39 <Asztal> ok, it's just parked :(
06:53:12 <Asztal> damn wildcard dns. wonder why it shows with so many wwws in my search result though.
06:54:06 <oerjan> because someone linked to it that way?
06:55:12 <Asztal> yeah, but... still odd (there's many different ones, too)
07:09:10 <MizardX> echo -a ---
07:09:15 <MizardX> /
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09:28:12 <AnMaster> hi
09:28:51 <AnMaster> hi oerjan
09:28:52 <oerjan> !y
09:28:59 <AnMaster> eh?
09:29:18 <AnMaster> <MizardX> echo -a ---
09:29:20 <AnMaster> hm?
09:29:31 <AnMaster> that could be hard with echo
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09:29:43 <MizardX> {MizardX} /
09:29:43 <AnMaster> if you want to echo something beginning with - I mean
09:29:45 <oerjan> ja+seWuV !y
09:30:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, Base64?
09:30:43 <oerjan> ||e +e +ou
09:30:59 <AnMaster> MizardX, if you do want to echo (in shell) something starting with - I would recommend using printf instead. Like printf "%s" "-whatever"
09:31:00 <AnMaster> in bash
09:31:09 <AnMaster> think that is POSIX though
09:31:10 <AnMaster> not sure
09:31:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, ...
09:31:59 <oerjan> i would have assumed there was some option you could just put first
09:32:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, for echo? don't think so
09:32:28 <AnMaster> well
09:32:37 <AnMaster> depends on what exactly
09:32:41 <AnMaster> -a will print -a
09:32:46 <AnMaster> -e you can't start with
09:32:56 <AnMaster> syntax is: echo [-neE] [arg ...]
09:33:08 <AnMaster> arg can't start with -n -e or -E
09:33:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, the actual rules are rather complex
09:33:43 <AnMaster> $ echo '-e a'
09:33:43 <AnMaster> -e a
09:33:46 <AnMaster> $ echo '-eE'
09:33:48 <AnMaster>
09:34:06 <AnMaster> (no space really there, but can't send empty line on irc)
09:34:15 <AnMaster> $ echo -- '-eE'
09:34:15 <AnMaster> -- -eE
09:34:42 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokoko
09:35:12 <psygnisfive> oko!
09:35:20 <oklopol> ;)
09:35:26 <psygnisfive> ;*
09:46:54 <AnMaster> Happy Australian Mailman day!
09:47:11 <AnMaster> actually not Australian, more like US one
09:48:45 <fizzie> Well, that's for bash's echo. POSIX echo says about options: "The echo utility shall not recognize the '--' argument ...; '--' shall be recognized as a string operand. Implementations shall not support any options."
09:50:08 <fizzie> Specifically it says about the string operans: "If any operand is -n, it shall be treated as a string, not an option." And the escape sequences should be recognized by default.
09:50:15 <fizzie> No-one seems to be doing echo like that, though.
09:53:12 <AnMaster> true
09:53:13 <oerjan> ^echo hi
09:53:15 <fungot> hi hi
09:53:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, bash have some option to do it iirc
09:53:30 <AnMaster> either compile time or shopt/set
09:53:33 <AnMaster> forgot
09:53:38 <AnMaster> forgot which*
09:54:06 <fizzie> SunOS 5.10 echo(1):
09:54:10 <fizzie> "sh's echo, ksh's echo, and /usr/bin/echo understand the back-slashed escape characters, except that sh's echo does not understand \a as the alert character. In addition, ksh's echo does not have an -n option. sh's echo and /usr/bin/echo have an -n option if the SYSV3 environment variable is set.
09:54:17 <fizzie> csh's echo and /usr/ucb/echo, on the other hand, have an -n option, but do not understand the back-slashed escape characters. sh and ksh determine whether /usr/ucb/echo is found first in the PATH and, if so, they adapt the behavior of the echo builtin to match /usr/ucb/echo".
09:54:21 <fizzie> Echoing is surprisingly complicated.
09:54:42 <AnMaster> heh
09:54:46 <AnMaster> at least on sunos yes
09:55:03 <AnMaster> what about solaris? iirc sunos is rather old
09:55:12 <fizzie> SunOS 5.10 == Solaris 10.
09:55:24 <AnMaster> ah
09:56:04 <fizzie> I guess officially I shouldn't say "SunOS" at all, it's just that the page footer of the man page says "SunOS 5.10 Last change: 17 Jul 2006 1".
09:56:15 <AnMaster> heh
09:56:27 <oerjan> ^ul ((Ultrix )S:^):^
09:56:27 <fungot> Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ultrix Ul ...too much output!
09:57:09 * oerjan suddenly wonders why he did that.
09:57:11 <AnMaster> ^ul (::^):^
09:57:12 <fungot> ...too much stack!
09:57:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, I wonder too
09:57:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, what instructions in STRN does fungot use?
09:57:37 <fungot> AnMaster: i'd have hope only if terry gilliam directed it. then write the traditional examples; hello world, factorial, you say sure, why not?
09:58:07 <oerjan> the monty python bot!
09:58:41 <AnMaster> "you say sure" is a "traditional example"?
09:59:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: Hmm. I think at least A, C, F, G, L, N, P, S and V; but maybe not all of them very frequently.
09:59:36 <AnMaster> fizzie ah I recently improved N performance
10:00:29 <AnMaster> when does IWC update now again? wasn't it 11:00?
10:00:45 <AnMaster> or was it 12:00?
10:00:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, ^
10:01:19 <oerjan> 11:08 or 11:11
10:01:26 <oerjan> or thereabouts
10:01:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, someone not using ntp?
10:01:56 <oerjan> no, i just don't quite remember
10:02:07 <AnMaster> strange point of time
10:02:09 <oerjan> 11:11
10:02:25 <oerjan> "at 03:11 Pacific Time, if you're curious - and no, no reason"
10:02:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, where? I did look at faq just a moment ago...
10:02:50 <AnMaster> oh I missed it...
10:02:52 <AnMaster> duh
10:04:14 <fizzie> N is called a number of times for each IRC message (because L with longer-than-the-string-itself argument wasn't so well-defined), but I don't think that's a performance-critical code path. In fact I don't think the whole bot is very performance-critical, since even the babble-generator response time is quite reasonable. The underload interp uses N in almost every instruction (sometimes twice), so there it might help.
10:04:41 <AnMaster> mhm
10:05:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, it also slightly altered how N works on empty stack (still following the spec though, but that doesn't mean much for RCS fingerprints...)
10:06:02 <AnMaster> since now it doesn't actually pop the string at all, just scan the stack and push the length
10:07:15 <AnMaster> a few other instructions that popped strings are also faster now thanks to stack_pop_string returning string length (thus avoiding a call to strlen())
10:08:05 <AnMaster> also I don't recommend using STRN on any data that doesn't fit in an unsigned byte for now, I have plans to fix that soon (long standing issue this)
10:08:55 <AnMaster> I mean, avoid out of byte-range values in the cells you operate on with STRN
10:09:23 <fizzie> I don't think my strings have any strange values, since it's mostly just IRC inputs/outputs anyway.
10:10:12 <AnMaster> it is possible with some values popped strings may contain more than one 0 byte due to the conversion from int32_t*/int64_t* to unsigned char*
10:10:17 <AnMaster> atm
10:10:31 <AnMaster> I'm writing a fungecell string library atm to avoid this
10:11:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw have you ever looked at the glibc strlen()? It does some crazy stuff
10:11:28 <AnMaster> like scanning the string one word at a time
10:12:02 <fizzie> Actually, I think I've seen something like that in some bit-tricks page. I don't think I've specifically looked at glibc strlen, though.
10:12:42 <fizzie> ARM has some opcodes to help dealing with "32-bit word which is actually part of a string of octets" data, IIRC.
10:13:55 <AnMaster> heh
10:14:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, glibc was doing some weird masking tricks and such
10:14:41 <AnMaster> http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/libc/string/strlen.c?rev=1.1.2.1&content-type=text/plain&cvsroot=glibc
10:15:06 <fizzie> Actually I think it was the SuperH arch and not ARM that I was remembering.
10:16:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems strange, with false positives...
10:17:28 <AnMaster> it could have been done even better in asm (strlen that is)
10:19:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, which is actually done for x86:
10:19:05 <AnMaster> http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/libc/sysdeps/i386/strlen.c?rev=1.8&content-type=text/plain&cvsroot=glibc
10:20:04 <fizzie> Yes, it was SuperH. There's at least CMP/STR which is true (well, sets T flag to 1) when two registers have at least one equivalent byte; so 0x11223344 and 0x00220000 would compare to true. It can be used to do strlen like that by using 0 as the other operand; that way it does "set T if there's a null byte in this word".
10:21:05 <AnMaster> http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/libc/sysdeps/x86_64/strlen.S?rev=1.2&content-type=text/plain&cvsroot=glibc
10:21:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, if glibc supports superh then it is probably there
10:22:12 <AnMaster> http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/libc/sysdeps/sh/strlen.S?rev=1.3&content-type=text/plain&cvsroot=glibc <-- maybe sh is superh?
10:22:24 <fizzie> Yes, I just found that.
10:23:08 <fizzie> mov #0, r3 ... cmp/str r3, r1; looks like they do it like that.
10:23:57 <fizzie> "bf/s 2b" does a delayed branch, so it actually executes that "add #4, r2" under it before branching.
10:24:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it isn't odd that strlen() is optimised...
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10:31:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/libc/sysdeps/x86_64/memcpy.S?rev=1.4.2.3&content-type=text/plain&cvsroot=glibc is crazy
10:32:39 <fizzie> Heh, that's quite a lot of code for different-sized memory blocks.
10:32:45 <AnMaster> indeed
10:34:09 <AnMaster> http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/libc/sysdeps/x86_64/memset.S?rev=1.2.2.7&content-type=text/plain&cvsroot=glibc
10:34:10 <AnMaster> wth
10:34:13 <AnMaster> what is all that
10:34:17 <AnMaster> .quad L(Got0), L(P1Q0), L(P2Q0), L(P3Q0)
10:34:17 <AnMaster> .quad L(P4Q0), L(P5Q0), L(P6Q0), L(P7Q0)
10:34:17 <AnMaster> for
10:35:04 <AnMaster> this meset is a lot of unrolled loops it seems
10:36:22 <AnMaster> and SSE stuff
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10:39:52 <fizzie> Kernel's arch/x86/lib/memset_64.S is a lot simpler. I don't think I happen to have a copy of gcc sources, but doesn't it also have builtin memset?
10:40:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm...
10:40:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, those __builtins in gcc are crazier iirc, they expand to inline asm optimised for this specific usage case
10:40:52 <AnMaster> most of the time
10:40:59 <AnMaster> sometimes they end up in libgcc.so.1 instead
10:42:14 <AnMaster> glibc's memset need to check for alignment, while the builtin gcc memset at least sometimes could avoid that
10:44:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, also sometimes a loop could be even more effective: auto vectorisation and auto parallelisation
10:44:13 <AnMaster> don't know if gcc supports the latter yet
10:44:17 <AnMaster> icc does
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13:49:02 <AnMaster> I just found that http://www.google.com/codesearch is actually useful heh
13:50:02 <AnMaster> even better than grepping in a local copy in fact...
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14:26:26 <AnMaster> ais523, there?
14:26:34 <ais523> yes
14:26:44 <AnMaster> is this well defined behaviour or not: ip->delta = (fungeVector) { ip->delta.y, -ip->delta.x };
14:26:51 <AnMaster> I'm swapping x and y
14:26:55 <ais523> that's well-defined
14:27:07 <AnMaster> ais523, really? it won't end up reading after writing part or such?
14:27:37 <ais523> there's a general rule that you can't read and write the same variable between sequence points, but there's an exception
14:27:40 <ais523> and you hit the exception
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14:27:46 <AnMaster> ais523, oh what is this exception?
14:27:53 <ais523> the exception is that you are allowed to if the read is necessary to calculate what's being written
14:28:02 <ais523> i.e. that the new value depends on the old value
14:28:18 <ais523> it's why statements like i = i + 1; are legal
14:28:19 <AnMaster> oh you mean like i = i+2 ?
14:28:23 <AnMaster> right
14:28:28 <AnMaster> ais523, but does this apply in this case?
14:28:33 <ais523> yes, it does
14:28:33 <AnMaster> considering it is part of the struct
14:28:37 <AnMaster> hm ok
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14:33:13 <AnMaster> ais523, what if I have different pointer that alias each other
14:33:17 <AnMaster> is it will defined then too?
14:33:27 <AnMaster> same data type of course
14:35:49 <AnMaster> ais523, ?
14:35:59 <AnMaster> no ping reply.... guess he timed out
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14:53:55 <ehird> AnMaster:
14:54:04 <ehird> echo -n '-n
14:54:05 <ehird> '
14:54:25 <AnMaster> ehird, nice one
14:54:45 <ehird> brb, /cycling to get client synced up with names list
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14:54:46 <AnMaster> echo -n $'-n\n'
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14:54:49 <AnMaster> echo -n $'-n\n'
14:54:52 <AnMaster> that should work too
14:54:53 <ehird> hmm
14:54:57 <ehird> ais523 has joined (n=ais523@147.188.254.121)
14:54:57 <ehird> 14:50 3 has left (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:54:59 <ehird> ok, that's a bug
14:55:08 <AnMaster> err
14:55:09 <AnMaster> what?
14:55:14 <ehird> it's meant to be ais523 has left
14:55:19 <AnMaster> he quit
14:55:20 <ehird> my bouncer-quicklog-timestamp-regex is fscked up
14:55:22 <AnMaster> due to read error
14:55:24 <AnMaster> not left
14:55:30 <ehird> my bouncer-quicklog-timestamp-regex is fscked up
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14:55:34 <AnMaster> ah
14:55:34 <AnMaster> right
14:55:36 <ehird> yes, it should say left IRC
14:55:42 <ehird> which is what limechat says for quit
14:55:50 <ehird> and also, um, ais523, not 3
14:55:52 * ehird fixes
14:55:55 <AnMaster> indeed
14:56:07 <ehird> elsif body =~ /^([^ ])+ has left(?: IRC)? \(#{BOUNCER_TIME_REGEXP}(.+)\)$/
14:56:11 <ehird> where BOUNCER_TIME_REGEXP = /\[(\d\d:\d\d):\d\d\] /
14:56:14 <ehird> wonder what the issue is
14:56:50 <AnMaster> what regex flavour?
14:57:02 <ehird> Ruby :P
14:57:07 <ehird> it's perl-esque
14:57:10 <ehird> with some python stuff
14:57:20 <ehird> I think 1.9 uses oniguruma
14:57:28 <ehird> http://www.geocities.jp/kosako3/oniguruma/
14:57:47 <AnMaster> geocities...
14:57:55 <ehird> it's common in japan
14:58:08 <ehird> they all use a weird hosted blog software called hatena diary, too
14:58:22 <AnMaster> really? makes me think of 1997 websites..
14:58:46 <ehird> japan's internetscape is weird :P
14:59:02 <ehird> ha, I was right, if you go to the root of that guy's homepage
14:59:03 <ehird> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/kkos/
14:59:04 <ehird> hatena diary
14:59:56 <AnMaster> that is a different url...
15:00:08 <ehird> http://www.geocities.jp/kosako3/
15:00:10 <ehird> links to that url
15:00:17 <ehird> hatena diary is a hosted service
15:00:19 <ehird> (it's on their site)
15:00:29 <ehird> every japanese programmer uses it, I swear
15:00:44 <AnMaster> k
15:01:00 <ehird> anyway hm maybe it is not ?:
15:01:06 <AnMaster> so why is it "weird"?
15:01:19 <AnMaster> I mean http://d.hatena.ne.jp/kkos/ doesn't look very weird
15:01:29 <AnMaster> slightly wordpressy in fact
15:01:39 <ehird> AnMaster: i just mean
15:01:42 <ehird> the general landscape of japan's internet
15:01:46 <AnMaster> ah right
15:01:47 <ehird> geocities is common and not retro at all
15:01:56 <ehird> everyone under the sun uses one odd blog service
15:02:50 <ehird> (?:re)
15:02:51 <ehird> Makes re into a group without generating backreferences.
15:02:54 <ehird> —pickaxe
15:02:56 <ehird> hm, so that is right
15:03:14 <ehird> ohh
15:03:18 <ehird> hm no
15:04:40 <ehird> well let's hope that workd
15:04:42 <ehird> worked
15:05:04 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:06:13 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, what if I have different pointer that alias each other
15:06:13 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> is it will defined then too?
15:06:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess "no"
15:07:07 <ais523> I don't think you have guarantees with aliasing
15:07:14 <ais523> not sure
15:07:17 <ehird> hi ais523
15:07:18 <AnMaster> hm
15:07:22 <ehird> you found a bug!
15:07:50 <ais523> you definitely don't if they're marked restrict, not sure about the unrestricted case
15:07:50 <ais523> and hi ehird
15:07:50 <ais523> also, which bug?
15:08:07 <AnMaster> ehird, ask for oerjan's fly swatter, fly swatters tend to work ok on most bugs too
15:08:29 <ehird> ais523: you came up as 'HH:MM 3 left (...)'
15:08:35 <ehird> instead of 'HH:MM ais523 left IRC (...)'
15:08:38 <ehird> due to a regex bug
15:09:05 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is the corrected regex?
15:09:15 <ehird> elsif body =~ /^([^ ])+ has left( IRC)? \(#{BOUNCER_TIME_REGEXP}(.+)\)$/
15:09:18 <ehird> I am not certain it will work
15:10:04 <AnMaster> ehird, some regex flavours allows naming the regex groups
15:10:16 <ehird> not ruby's unfortunately
15:10:56 <AnMaster> ehird, then I would not use "( IRC)?" but rather two different regexes, one for IRC and one without IRC
15:11:16 <ehird> that's duplication
15:11:18 <AnMaster> doesn't the numbers change if there is any " IRC" to match?
15:11:24 <ehird> no
15:11:24 <AnMaster> isn't any*
15:11:27 <ehird> it just becomes nil
15:11:31 <ehird> which stringifies to ""
15:11:57 <AnMaster> ehird, hm so how does it work in groups like: (a([a-z]+))*
15:12:07 <AnMaster> which number does the inner group get ;P
15:12:11 <ehird> 2.
15:12:19 <AnMaster> ehird, and if it repeats ?
15:12:33 <AnMaster> like:
15:12:45 <ehird> you can't repeat groups
15:12:48 <ehird> irb(main):001:0> "aaa" =~ /(a)+/
15:12:48 <ehird> => 0
15:12:49 <ehird> irb(main):002:0> $1
15:12:51 <ehird> => "a"
15:12:53 <ehird> irb(main):003:0> $2
15:12:55 <ehird> => nil
15:12:57 <AnMaster> (a([0-9]+) ?)* a0238 a32a84
15:12:57 <ehird> same in most regex flavours
15:13:08 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc some flavours allows repeating
15:13:11 <ehird> well you can repeat them
15:13:15 <ehird> you just don't get the group
15:13:25 <AnMaster> I mean, so you *do* get the group
15:13:46 <ehird> ais523: do many people use ocaml's OOP?
15:13:49 <ehird> I haven't seen it used once
15:14:03 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the right way to solve this is writing a lexer of course
15:14:06 <ehird> hmm, i just saw it
15:14:08 <ehird> first time
15:14:13 <ehird> AnMaster: har har
15:14:19 <AnMaster> also why are you parsing elsif body =~ /^([^ ])+ has left( IRC)? \(#{BOUNCER_TIME_REGEXP}(.+)\)$/ instead of parsing the raw messages from the bouncer?
15:14:33 <ais523> I don't know
15:14:33 <ais523> I'm not exactly an OCaml expert...
15:14:37 <AnMaster> I guess they would be a lot easier to match
15:14:42 <ehird> AnMaster: because I can't get to that
15:14:49 <ehird> by the time it gets parsed into the timestamp, it's parsed the rest
15:14:57 <ehird> this is in Log#new
15:15:01 <ehird> ais523: kay :P
15:15:09 <AnMaster> ehird, even xchat allows that... and xchat's scripting support sucks
15:15:19 <AnMaster> of course ERC manages it fine
15:15:22 <ehird> yes, I _can_ do it
15:15:26 <ehird> but it's not supported
15:15:29 <ehird> well, it is
15:15:31 <ehird> look
15:15:33 <ehird> this way is simpler
15:15:33 <AnMaster> err
15:15:35 <AnMaster> k
15:15:40 <ehird> and I'd prefer not to mess with the direct messages from my bouncer
15:15:45 <ehird> just how they're displayed & logged
15:15:51 <ehird> this isn't a script
15:15:54 <ehird> I'm just modifying LimeChat
15:16:01 <ehird> (/Applications/LimeChat.app/Contents/Resources/log.rb)
15:16:03 <AnMaster> hm ok
15:16:18 <AnMaster> ehird, so when you upgrade LimeChat you have to do it all again?
15:16:26 <AnMaster> fun
15:16:27 <AnMaster> :P
15:16:33 <ehird> I didn't have to change or remove any lines
15:16:34 <ehird> just add a few
15:16:53 <AnMaster> even so. Using existing scripting hooks tends to be better when possible
15:16:55 <ehird> they only depend on @nick, @line_type, @body and @time
15:17:00 <ehird> AnMaster: there isn't any. also, it took 5 minutes.
15:17:12 <ehird> a script would probably require extra cruft to hook into that.
15:17:12 <AnMaster> of course there is a raw hook I can use for almost everything in ERC...
15:17:22 <ehird> does ERC make you toast in the morning
15:17:30 <ehird> ERC ERC ERC ERC ERC PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX
15:17:32 <AnMaster> ehird, no, why would it be in ERC?
15:17:37 <AnMaster> M-x toast
15:17:41 <ehird> why would ERC be in emacs, a text editor
15:17:50 <AnMaster> ehird, why would doctor be in emacs
15:18:20 <AnMaster> ehird, emacs isn't just a text editor. It is an IDE.
15:18:50 <ehird> why would ERC be in emacs, an integrated development environment
15:18:56 <AnMaster> Integrated Digital Environment
15:18:59 <AnMaster> ...
15:18:59 <ehird> answer: emacs is a bloated pos
15:19:13 <AnMaster> I didn't restrict myself to Development...
15:19:40 <AnMaster> ehird, also what about freenode access? Very important for development
15:20:29 <AnMaster> idea: hooks that allows you to connect to freenode and join the correct channel based on current buffer mode
15:20:36 <AnMaster> like ##c or #python or such
15:20:47 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you think?
15:20:54 <AnMaster> and ais523 too ^
15:21:21 <ais523> AnMaster: ridiculous
15:21:25 <ais523> but I like it anyway
15:21:46 <AnMaster> ais523, well I could write a elisp script for it I guess
15:21:54 <AnMaster> but I'm too lazy
15:23:27 <ehird> AnMaster:
15:23:31 <AnMaster> yes?
15:23:40 <ehird> <AnMaster> Integrated Digital Environment
15:23:42 <ehird> <AnMaster> I didn't restrict myself to Development...
15:23:44 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/169/
15:23:52 * AnMaster looks
15:24:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I forgot how that joke was supposed to make sense
15:25:24 <AnMaster> $ grep -E 'gry$' /usr/share/dict/words
15:25:24 <AnMaster> aggry
15:25:24 <AnMaster> ahungry
15:25:24 <AnMaster> angry
15:25:24 <AnMaster> anhungry
15:25:24 <AnMaster> hungry
15:25:26 <AnMaster> unangry
15:25:28 <AnMaster> hm
15:25:39 <AnMaster> anhungry?
15:25:40 <AnMaster> wth is that
15:26:01 <ais523> and "meagry" is meant to be the third
15:28:05 <AnMaster> ais523, the answer in xkcd still doesn't make sense
15:28:09 <AnMaster> no matter how I read it
15:34:25 <ehird> aha, ocaml message calls are #
15:34:26 <ehird> not .
15:35:21 <AnMaster> fun
15:35:35 <ehird> dunno if you can call methods on aclass though
15:35:36 <ehird> hm
15:39:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:39:55 <AnMaster> hi oerjan e
15:39:56 <AnMaster> err
15:39:58 <AnMaster> hi oerjan*
15:40:55 <oerjan> ^ul (oerja)S((n)S:^):^
15:40:56 <fungot> oerjannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn ...too much output!
15:48:08 -!- jix has joined.
15:51:40 <oerjan> <AnMaster> ais523, the answer in xkcd still doesn't make sense
15:51:55 <oerjan> the point is that the teller _botched_ the joke
15:51:59 <AnMaster> aha
15:53:09 <oerjan> also, that it's a well-known joke that is botched as often as not, leading to people actually thinking there should be a third word ending in -gry
15:53:46 <oerjan> and that people who botch jokes that badly deserve to have their hands cut off ;/
15:56:36 <kerlo> My /usr/share/dict/words only has angry and hungry.
15:56:57 <kerlo> And by "my", I mean someone else's.
15:57:15 <kerlo> Mine also only has angry and hungry.
15:57:20 <AnMaster> #include_next <limits.h>
15:57:22 <AnMaster> wth is that?
15:57:26 <AnMaster> found in internal GCC headers
15:57:28 <ais523> AnMaster: it's system headers
15:57:35 <ais523> they're allowed to do weird nonstandard things
15:57:39 <AnMaster> ais523, non-standard thing yeah
15:57:46 <AnMaster> ais523, but what does it mean?
15:57:50 <ais523> I think that it tells gcc to include the limits.h that's found in the search path after this limits.h
15:57:51 <AnMaster> you worked on GCC...
15:57:55 <ais523> as in, include the second choice
15:58:05 <AnMaster> that's strange
15:58:07 <AnMaster> the file is syslimits.h
15:58:10 <AnMaster> not limits.h
15:58:31 <AnMaster> there is a limits.h there too though
15:58:42 <AnMaster> so I guess "not in this directory" rather
15:59:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm also pretty sure I saw #add_system somewhere to add a system include path.. might not have been in GCC
16:01:17 <MizardX> ^ul ((.)S)((X)S::^)((d)S::^)((r)S::^)((a)S::^)((z)S::^)((i)S::^)((M)S::^)^
16:01:17 <fungot> Miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii ...too much output!
16:02:44 <ehird> hmm, okay, I think I've figured out ocaml's object sysem
16:02:56 <ehird> main problem with obj-c s that everything is ('a option), i.e. any object can be nil
16:02:59 <ehird> which is irritating for this
16:03:21 <ehird> wonder if gen_bridge_metadata can analyse that
16:06:41 * ehird digs through 3415 lines of automatically generated xml
16:09:19 <ais523> this game I installed yesterday has a Brainfuck-based level
16:09:41 <ais523> it has levels based on all sorts of things, it seems there must be someone who knows brainfuck who submitted a level
16:11:27 <ehird> what game?
16:11:32 <ais523> Enigma
16:11:39 <ehird> ha, I guessed Enigma
16:11:42 <ehird> i love that game
16:11:45 <ais523> you know it?
16:11:48 <ehird> yep
16:11:58 <ehird> i think it's the first game I played on linux, years ago
16:12:10 <ais523> level 103 in the Enigma 1.00 new pack
16:13:10 <ehird> I'll reinstall it
16:13:48 -!- jix_ has joined.
16:14:51 <ehird> ais523: 1.00 not 1.01?
16:15:12 <ais523> yes
16:15:22 <ais523> there's a 1.01 new pack too, but the BF level is in the 1.00 pack
16:15:27 <ehird> ah
16:15:57 <ehird> <method type='v24@0:4@8@12@16@20' selector='parser:foundExternalEntityDeclarationWithName:publicID:systemID:'/>
16:16:01 <ehird> ^ most helpful xml evar
16:17:35 <ehird> print 23
16:17:35 <ehird> genius
16:18:12 <ehird> hmm
16:18:15 <ehird> wow, this will be hard :D
16:19:00 <ehird> ais523: it actually interprets the BF..
16:20:02 <ais523> yes
16:20:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:20:42 <ehird> #113 is evil
16:20:58 <ais523> oh, most of them are evil
16:21:15 <ais523> but yes, #113 has several layers of evil
16:22:54 <ais523> I'm not very good at Enigma
16:23:00 <ais523> I think it should have more easier levels for me to feel good about
16:23:10 <ehird> that was pretty much my thoughts when I played it
16:23:15 <ais523> also, I don't really have the concentration to solve most of the harder puzzle levels
16:23:17 <ehird> I'm good at the Meditation levels, but that's it
16:23:29 <ais523> nor the dexterity to solve most of the harder dexterity levels
16:24:19 <ais523> by the way, some of the levels can be solved very quickly by moving very fast at random rather than trying to be intelligent
16:24:32 <ehird> haha
16:24:55 <kerlo> "No Meditation" is an interesting level.
16:25:14 <kerlo> Can Enigma be controlled with a joystick?
16:25:20 <ehird> check the options
16:25:29 <ais523> no idea
16:25:34 <ais523> kerlo: you know it too?
16:25:37 <ais523> wow, it really gets around
16:25:37 <kerlo> Yep.
16:26:18 * kerlo apt-gets Enigma
16:26:19 <ehird> anmaster knows it too
16:26:21 <oklopol> hard puzzle levels?
16:26:24 <ehird> oklopol: yes.
16:26:27 * oklopol is intrigued
16:26:30 <ehird> you control a ball with your mouse.
16:26:35 <ehird> and you have to.. stuff.
16:26:41 <ehird> the basic ones are just matching up colour things.
16:26:45 <ehird> but it gets a lot harder.
16:26:56 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.nongnu.org/enigma/
16:26:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> anmaster knows it too <-- yes enigma is nice
16:27:06 <ehird> also, I propose we designate Enigma as the official game of #esoteric
16:27:09 <ehird> considering this
16:27:12 <AnMaster> err no
16:27:13 <kerlo> I think I know it from its inclusion in a certain Linux distribution.
16:27:21 <AnMaster> ehird, simutrans?
16:27:26 <ehird> wit
16:27:26 <ehird> wut
16:27:28 <AnMaster> iirc GregorR also play it
16:27:51 <AnMaster> ehird, also what about freeciv?
16:27:56 <AnMaster> don't you love it?
16:27:58 <ehird> no.
16:28:02 <AnMaster> I do
16:28:07 <AnMaster> the action!
16:28:10 <ehird> also, give evidence that a lot of #esoteric like simutrans or freeciv and I'll reconsider
16:28:16 <AnMaster> ehird, and both ais523 and me plays nethack
16:28:17 <ehird> but enigma is esoteric and we have a lot of people here liking it
16:28:20 <AnMaster> + it is geeky
16:28:23 <kerlo> Ooh, now I have to apt-get freeciv as well.
16:28:24 <ehird> that's two people
16:28:33 <ehird> we have 4 for enigma, atm, + maybe oklopol
16:28:52 <AnMaster> I'm against enigma, I haven't actually played it for about 2 months
16:28:53 <oklopol> we'll see.
16:28:57 <AnMaster> may be due to all the SIGSEGV
16:28:59 <AnMaster> ...
16:29:05 <kerlo> Huh. Do I want SDL or GTK?
16:29:07 <AnMaster> it manages to crash randomly
16:29:10 <ehird> kerlo: sdl.
16:29:19 <AnMaster> kerlo, they are two different things...
16:29:30 <AnMaster> it makes no sense to replace them with each other
16:29:30 <ehird> thanks AnMaster, I'm sure we'd never have guessed
16:29:43 <ehird> presumably there's freeciv-{sdl,gtk}
16:29:43 <kerlo> There's an SDL version and a GTK version.
16:29:44 <ehird> duh
16:30:00 <AnMaster> ehird, one is a GUI toolkit, the other is a media library. sure some feature may be common, but most aren't
16:30:14 <ehird> sigh
16:30:18 <AnMaster> for example sdl-sound? Nothing like it in gtk iirc
16:30:20 <ehird> learn to read, please...
16:30:24 <AnMaster> yes
16:30:30 <AnMaster> and I said: That makes no sense
16:30:37 <ais523> kerlo: it's unlikely to make a whole lot of difference
16:30:41 <ehird> 16:29 kerlo: There's an SDL version and a GTK version.
16:30:43 <AnMaster> even if it is like that it still makes no sense
16:30:43 <ehird> OF THE GAME
16:30:47 <ehird> OF THE GAME YOU IDIOT! Aaaargh
16:30:49 <ais523> AnMaster: obviously it's referring to which toolkit is used to render the graphics
16:30:50 <ehird> of course it makes sense!!
16:30:56 <AnMaster> ehird, no
16:30:59 <AnMaster> sure there is
16:31:01 <ais523> because SDL and GTK might be different things
16:31:02 <kerlo> Finally, I must install NetHack.
16:31:03 <AnMaster> but it doesn't make sense
16:31:10 <AnMaster> hm
16:31:11 <ais523> but what they both have in common is that they can both be used to render graphics
16:31:12 <ehird> yes it does
16:31:25 <kerlo> Oh great, now there are four of them.
16:31:28 <AnMaster> kerlo, flightgear (flight simulator, no shooting, just very geeky)
16:31:31 <AnMaster> I use it
16:31:43 <ehird> flight simulators are the epitome of boring
16:31:46 <kerlo> X11, qt, LISP, or console?
16:31:47 <AnMaster> but I doubt anyone without a high end GPU would like it
16:31:53 <ehird> kerlo: nethack: console
16:31:56 <ais523> not qt, it's broken
16:31:58 <AnMaster> kerlo, lisp? nethack-lisp? No!
16:32:02 <ehird> ...
16:32:02 <AnMaster> console is best
16:32:03 <ehird> no wait
16:32:03 <ais523> not lisp as that only works with the emacs nethack client
16:32:03 <ehird> YES
16:32:05 <ehird> nethack lisp
16:32:07 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:32:07 <ehird> that sounds-
16:32:09 <ehird> ais523: oh.
16:32:12 <ehird> i was getting _all excited_
16:32:15 <AnMaster> ehird, nethack-el
16:32:19 <AnMaster> I heard about that
16:32:22 <AnMaster> but never "lisp"
16:32:24 <ais523> installing x11 installs both the graphical and console versions
16:32:25 <kerlo> Does the X11 one include everything the console one does?
16:32:26 <AnMaster> that is like very different
16:32:27 <ais523> or you can just install console
16:32:31 <ehird> kerlo: X11 one is useless
16:32:34 <ehird> so just install console
16:32:40 <kerlo> I'm going with X11. :-P
16:32:40 <ais523> the graphical one isn't all that good, thoguh
16:32:50 <AnMaster> indeed
16:32:50 <ehird> graphical nethack is stupid
16:32:52 <ehird> defeats the point
16:32:57 <ehird> kerlo: you're just wasting diskspace
16:33:04 <AnMaster> text based nethack == more realism
16:33:09 <AnMaster> even if it sounds strange
16:33:22 <AnMaster> but they should start with unicode
16:33:40 <ehird> unihack
16:33:49 <ehird> unihack-lisp
16:33:51 <kerlo> How many kilobytes am I wasting?
16:33:52 <AnMaster> btw plain nethack is not good, you need to menucolor patch IMO
16:34:02 <ais523> AnMaster: nobody /needs/ menucolors
16:34:02 <ehird> plain nethack is fine yo.
16:34:03 <AnMaster> even nao has it
16:34:07 <ais523> people just get used to it
16:34:13 <ais523> AnMaster: what do you mean "even NAO"
16:34:24 <ais523> why are you assuming that NAO is less patched than the average?
16:34:31 <AnMaster> ais523, there are lots of nice patches that NAO lacks iirc
16:34:45 <ehird> fuck nethack patches
16:34:48 <ehird> i hate wimpmodes :P
16:34:54 <AnMaster> ehird, not wimpmode
16:35:04 <AnMaster> there are patches making it harder too
16:35:52 <kerlo> apt-get install oh-and-patch-it-for-me-while-youre-at-it
16:35:56 <AnMaster> hm freedroid-rpg? needs a decent GPU as well as CPU
16:35:57 <ehird> making nethack harder is ... like. .. um ... making the holocaust more horrific.
16:36:09 <AnMaster> ehird, more awesome you mean
16:36:12 <AnMaster> and less boring
16:36:17 <ais523> ehird: NetHack isn't all that hard
16:36:21 <ehird> making the holocaust more awesome?
16:36:22 <AnMaster> I mean. nethack is too easy
16:36:22 <ehird> hmm. yes.
16:36:27 <AnMaster> slashem...
16:36:28 <ehird> the holocaust was pretty boring
16:36:28 <ehird> I agree
16:36:37 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, Spork is more interesting in terms of "hard"
16:36:45 <ais523> Spork has more consistent difficulty than vanilla
16:36:48 <ais523> slashem's more "more"
16:36:58 <AnMaster> ais523, true. slashem is quite unbalanced. for example val in slashem is too easy
16:36:59 <ais523> it's a game full of all sorts of random interesting stuff
16:37:29 -!- tombom has joined.
16:37:42 <AnMaster> ais523, there is some other one... now what was the name
16:38:06 <AnMaster> not a nethack clone, other rougelike
16:38:13 <AnMaster> and not angband or moria or such
16:38:39 <AnMaster> ah yes... dungeon crawl stone soup
16:38:45 <AnMaster> http://crawl-ref.sourceforge.net/
16:38:48 <AnMaster> quite nice
16:38:57 <AnMaster> but way harder
16:39:01 <ais523> crawl's rather different to nethack
16:39:10 <ais523> it's more about combat, whereas the combat's secondary in nethack
16:39:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I would still say it is a rougelike
16:39:16 <AnMaster> but yeah
16:39:19 <ais523> well, yes it's a roguelike
16:39:31 <ais523> but crawl and nethack are sort-of opposite ends of the roguelike spectrum
16:39:39 <AnMaster> ais523, tell that to all those damn newts that show up when you have 1 hitpoints in nethack :P
16:39:49 <ais523> AnMaster: just tell them "Elbereth"
16:39:55 <AnMaster> ais523, well true
16:39:57 <kerlo> Okay. What happens when your desktop has a remote window, you click the close button, and it asks you whether you want to force quit the application?
16:40:01 <AnMaster> ais523, also stop spoiling it...
16:40:03 <AnMaster> for others
16:40:18 <ais523> AnMaster: that isn't a spoiler, it's in the manual
16:40:30 <ais523> you can't seriously claim that things in the manual are spoilers!
16:40:41 <AnMaster> ais523, what manual...
16:40:55 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the E word helps against most stuff (everything? isn't there some exception for @?)
16:41:27 <ais523> not everything
16:41:33 <AnMaster> indeed
16:41:34 <ais523> but telling you what it didn't would be a spoiler
16:41:38 <AnMaster> yes
16:41:43 <kerlo> Does X11 have a way to tell the system a client is on to kill the client?
16:41:45 <ais523> and the manual's the guidebook, it should come with every nethack distribution
16:42:00 <AnMaster> kerlo, what do you mean?
16:42:45 <kerlo> Well, I had a window open from a remote server, and a window opened offering me to "force quit" it.
16:43:01 <AnMaster> ais523, ah. I rather stuff you get from the oracle when asking for large and not having the money
16:43:03 <AnMaster> ;P
16:43:06 <AnMaster> bbiab food
16:43:28 <kerlo> I don't remember whether the force quit window was local or remote, but I think it was local.
16:44:45 <ehird> ais523: #180 is fun
16:44:59 <ehird> it's random
16:45:04 <ehird> ly generated
16:47:59 * kerlo notes that ehird isn't talking about xkcd #180
16:52:18 * kerlo notes that the Enigma options say nothing about a joystick
16:54:55 * kerlo notes that the joystick doesn't do anything in Enigma
16:57:12 <oklopol> err
16:57:13 <oklopol> so
16:57:18 <oklopol> when does it get interesting?
16:57:29 <oklopol> i did 21 first levels
16:57:46 <ais523> the tutorial's just designed to teach you the game
16:58:01 <ais523> but any of the other puzzle packs get insanely difficult on average from about the third puzzle onwards
16:58:13 <oklopol> "the tutorial"? "puzzle packs"? i see, i see
16:58:17 <oklopol> okay
16:58:18 <oklopol> i see
16:58:21 <oklopol> let's try one of them
16:58:33 <ais523> do the BF puzzle, if you like
16:58:40 <ais523> that's insanely hard for most people but should be easy for esolangers
16:58:41 <oklopol> where
16:58:58 <ais523> puzzle #103 in the Enigma 1.00 new pack
17:02:01 <oklopol> okay so
17:02:19 <oklopol> that was interesting, technically, yes, but i mean something that's interesting to play
17:02:33 <ehird> just pick levels at random
17:02:35 <ehird> you'll find something
17:03:03 <oklopol> could you just tell me a hard level?
17:03:28 <ehird> nope.
17:03:31 <ehird> hf
17:03:48 <oklopol> err
17:03:48 <oklopol> k
17:04:03 <oerjan> gnrt
17:04:05 <ais523> let me look for one that I remember as being particularly hard
17:04:14 <oklopol> well. motion was not fun, but mostly just because of my pad.
17:04:22 <oklopol> well okay
17:04:38 <ais523> #38 in Enigma 1.01 new
17:04:45 <oklopol> okay let's see
17:04:52 <ais523> that's one of the dexterity-based puzzles
17:04:58 <ais523> let me look for a hard intelligence-based one too
17:05:11 <ehird> ocaml is awesome.
17:05:16 <ehird> best language evar.
17:05:21 <ehird> hmm, tf
17:05:26 <ehird> enigma changes my colour profile
17:05:59 <AnMaster> <ais523> #38 in Enigma 1.01 new
17:06:01 <AnMaster> err
17:06:06 <AnMaster> 1.01 isn't very new
17:06:09 <ehird> ...
17:06:12 <ehird> the name of the pack
17:06:14 <ehird> is 1.01 new
17:06:15 <ais523> "Enigma 1.01 new" is the name of the puzzle pack
17:06:23 <AnMaster> ah right those
17:06:57 <ehird> oh god THAT #38
17:06:58 <ehird> fuck no
17:06:59 <AnMaster> you mean "DownDown"?
17:07:12 <ais523> I'll suggest 58 in Enigma 1.00 new for an intelligence-based puzzle
17:07:16 <ais523> ehird: well he asked for a hard one
17:07:17 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
17:07:20 * AnMaster hasn't solved it..
17:07:36 <AnMaster> wasn't it the one where you get crushed?
17:07:42 <ais523> yes
17:07:48 <ais523> it's a pure speed and memory puzzle
17:07:52 <ais523> but I'm nowhere near fast enough
17:07:59 <AnMaster> ais523, white contrast?
17:08:22 <ais523> #102 in Enigma 1.00 new also looks like a pretty hard puzzly puzzle
17:08:57 <AnMaster> ais523, have you solved 58 in Enigma 1.00 new (white contrast)?
17:09:25 <ais523> no
17:09:34 <ais523> AnMaster: I only started playing yesterday, I haven't done very many...
17:09:52 <ehird> #90 in 1.00...
17:09:54 <AnMaster> that 102 (Keystone) I solved on easy
17:09:54 <AnMaster> btw
17:09:55 <ehird> unsolvable
17:09:56 <ehird> right?
17:10:06 <AnMaster> ehird, #90 in which pack?
17:10:10 <ehird> "in 1.00"
17:10:10 <AnMaster> oh 1.0
17:10:11 <ais523> ehird: I haven't figured that one at all
17:10:17 <ehird> it says par 3 seconds
17:10:19 <ais523> and I don't know if it's unsolvable or not
17:10:20 <ehird> and top 1 second
17:10:20 <AnMaster> ehird, thought it was "in 1.00 seconds"?
17:10:22 <ehird> so it must be trivial
17:10:24 <ais523> maybe I'll look at the source
17:10:25 <ehird> but I can't see how
17:10:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yes since when I mouse over it in the level selection list enigma segfaults
17:10:56 <AnMaster> so yes unsolvable
17:11:08 <AnMaster> at least for me
17:11:14 <ais523> ehird: look at the ratings
17:11:17 <ais523> knowledge: 5
17:11:22 <ehird> ?
17:11:25 <ais523> that means there's something really obscure but standard on the level
17:11:30 <ais523> puzzles have difficulty ratings
17:11:31 <ehird> where are the ratings
17:11:36 <oklopol> ais523: i don't think i can do that without a mouse
17:11:38 <ais523> pause the game and select level info
17:11:47 <ais523> oklopol: I can't do it even with a mouse
17:12:00 <oklopol> how do i pause?
17:12:01 <ehird> "Difficulty: 26".
17:12:03 <ehird> Ouch.
17:12:06 <ehird> oklopol: esc
17:12:16 <ehird> ais523: some of the ground looks differen
17:12:16 <ehird> t
17:12:17 <ehird> sparkly
17:12:19 <AnMaster> oh
17:12:19 <ehird> or cracked
17:12:21 <AnMaster> duh
17:12:21 <ehird> or sth
17:12:23 <AnMaster> simple
17:12:25 <ehird> don't
17:12:26 <ehird> explain
17:12:27 <ehird> it
17:12:29 <ais523> ehird: I noticed
17:12:42 <AnMaster> ehird, see the two papers there
17:12:43 <AnMaster> read them
17:12:48 <ehird> yes, I have
17:12:51 <AnMaster> then adjust system time
17:12:52 <ehird> but did you hear what i said?
17:12:54 <ehird> stop spoiling it for us
17:12:56 <ehird> hey, look
17:12:58 <AnMaster> ah
17:13:02 <ehird> not only can AnMaster not read, he's an ass.
17:13:05 <ehird> woo.
17:13:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I missed the line "don't"
17:13:09 <AnMaster> I saw
17:13:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> explain
17:13:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> it
17:13:15 <AnMaster> not "don't"
17:13:20 <AnMaster> would have helped on same line
17:13:21 <ais523> I wondered if it was something like that, but didn't want to mess with NTP to check
17:13:23 <ehird> i forgot you have 2 lines of scrollbars,
17:13:24 <AnMaster> like
17:13:26 <AnMaster> if
17:13:27 <AnMaster> you
17:13:27 <ehird> *scrollback
17:13:30 <ehird> i feel for you.
17:13:30 <AnMaster> didn't
17:13:32 <AnMaster> write
17:13:32 <AnMaster> like
17:13:32 <AnMaster> this
17:13:37 <AnMaster> but rather like this
17:13:39 <ehird> a
17:13:39 <ehird> a
17:13:40 <ehird> a
17:13:42 <ehird> a
17:13:44 <ehird> a
17:13:45 <ais523> ehird: writing one word a line does make what you say rather hard to read...
17:13:46 <ehird> a
17:13:53 <AnMaster> ais523, exactly
17:14:03 <ehird> ais523: i was being annoying so people paid attention because reading it was harder, and thus the don't would be noticed.
17:14:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I just checked level source
17:14:26 <ais523> ehird: I tend not to read people talking like that at all
17:14:30 <ais523> it hits my mental spam filters
17:14:36 <ehird> ais523: you must have fun talking to comex
17:14:37 <oklopol> "one more and you won't get this hammer if you don't need it anynmore!" <<< for some unknown reason the texts are in finnish, what does this mean?
17:14:54 <ais523> oklopol: it means that someone's translated the game into finnish
17:15:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, export LC_ALL=C enigma
17:15:06 <ehird> he's on windows.
17:15:11 <ehird> i assume you have realised this by now.
17:15:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, also it says "one more and you won't get the hammer until you don't need it any more"
17:15:41 <oklopol> ah
17:15:45 <AnMaster> so it means you either got to move it some other way or solve it without that hammer
17:15:45 <oklopol> hmm
17:15:53 <oklopol> i don't want your tips
17:15:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, just change the language. No idea how on windows
17:15:58 <oklopol> i want the text
17:16:12 <AnMaster> now this is great...
17:16:16 <AnMaster> if I run engima under gdb
17:16:19 <AnMaster> it doesn't segfault
17:16:20 <AnMaster> yay
17:16:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, remove the translation file?
17:17:05 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:17:29 <ehird> camlp4 is awesome
17:17:31 <AnMaster> hm
17:17:39 <AnMaster> it doesn't use gettext...
17:17:40 <AnMaster> ehird, ?
17:17:45 <AnMaster> where is that level
17:17:48 <ehird> ocaml extension that lets you do macros
17:17:51 <ehird> lisp-style
17:17:51 <AnMaster> ah..
17:17:56 <AnMaster> cool
17:18:03 <AnMaster> how does it work for ocaml though?
17:18:11 <AnMaster> iirc ocaml isn't based on writing a parse tree
17:18:12 <ehird> by parsing ocaml and rewriting the ast
17:18:18 <AnMaster> ah I see
17:18:28 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camlp4
17:18:29 <ehird> see the example
17:18:35 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camlp4#Example
17:19:07 <AnMaster> argh at engimas levels
17:19:15 <AnMaster> xml with embedded lua
17:19:18 <AnMaster> could it be worse?
17:19:28 <ehird> json with embedded python
17:19:36 <ehird> imagine the indentation!
17:19:39 <AnMaster> ehird, does that even work?
17:19:42 <AnMaster> yeah exactly
17:19:48 <ehird> sure, you just have to do \n if ...
17:19:49 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, it's XML with two languages embedded in it
17:19:51 <ais523> one of which is Lua
17:19:51 <ehird> in the string literals
17:20:01 <ais523> and the other which is a level description lang that's unique to Enigma
17:20:10 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
17:20:22 <AnMaster> ais523, back when I first tried engima levels were pure lua
17:20:38 <AnMaster> also what is this special language
17:20:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I have written python like that in gdb more than once
17:21:01 <ehird> s-expressions with embedded lisp
17:21:02 <ehird> ... wait ...
17:21:05 <AnMaster> PyRun_SimpleString("import ...")
17:21:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hahah
17:21:29 <AnMaster> also camel case AND underscore sucks
17:21:38 <AnMaster> I mean... decide, don't mix
17:21:45 <ehird> it makes sense sometimes
17:21:48 <ehird> Module_FunctionName
17:21:53 <AnMaster> well ok
17:21:54 <ehird> as opposed to ModuleFunctionName
17:22:00 <ehird> in that case, PyRun is a section of the interpreter
17:22:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I prefer module_function_name
17:22:13 <ehird> i didn't ask what you preferred
17:22:16 <AnMaster> true
17:22:44 <ehird> heh, ocaml overcommits too
17:22:51 <ehird> 2.57GB virtual memory usage on all my ocaml instances
17:22:55 <ehird> & ocaml-using programs
17:22:55 <AnMaster> ais523, wait this special engima language...
17:23:04 <ais523> AnMaster: read the documentation
17:23:08 <AnMaster> ais523, is it like in /usr/share/games/enigma/levels/enigma_microban/mic_101.xml ?
17:23:09 <ais523> it just describes what objects are where
17:23:17 <AnMaster> It looks like it
17:23:23 <AnMaster> <el:luamain>
17:23:24 <AnMaster> ?
17:23:33 <AnMaster> hm
17:23:40 <AnMaster> nah
17:23:42 <AnMaster> that is lua
17:23:45 <ehird> is there a version of top(1)
17:23:49 <ehird> that sorts by disk activity?
17:23:50 <AnMaster> very non-lua looky
17:23:56 <ehird> something's klunking my disk
17:23:57 <AnMaster> ehird, on Linux?
17:24:03 <AnMaster> I don't know about OS X
17:24:03 <ehird> linux/bsd/osx.
17:24:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well iirc you need some sort of kernel patch to do it on linux
17:24:28 <AnMaster> and on bsd there is some tool for it
17:24:32 <AnMaster> not top-style
17:24:38 <AnMaster> but similar
17:24:48 <ehird> well, that's really helpful of you.
17:24:50 <AnMaster> forgot the name
17:24:52 <AnMaster> iostat?
17:25:06 <ehird> disk0 cpu load average
17:25:06 <ehird> KB/t tps MB/s us sy id 1m 5m 15m
17:25:07 <ehird> 15.04 4 0.07 7 3 90 0.52 0.50 0.39
17:25:11 <ehird> i want to know what -processes- is doing it
17:25:13 <AnMaster> ehird, check man page
17:25:14 <AnMaster> ...
17:25:17 <AnMaster> iirc
17:25:20 <ehird> anyway, they stopped
17:25:22 <AnMaster> bbiab phone
17:30:26 <AnMaster> back
17:31:31 <oklopol> okay beat 58 with better time than ...ideal time?
17:31:56 <oklopol> (that was kinda trivial.)
17:32:15 <ehird> you beat the world record?
17:32:46 <oklopol> err i kinda doubt it
17:32:50 <oklopol> but
17:33:06 <oklopol> it says something about "ideal time", i don't know the english term.
17:33:32 <oklopol> my time 2:03
17:33:35 <oklopol> world record :43
17:33:44 <oklopol> hmm
17:33:49 <oklopol> maybe i should try beating that.
17:34:00 <ehird> ideal time = par
17:34:16 <ais523> oklopol: try ]102
17:34:18 <ais523> *#102
17:34:56 <oklopol> ehird: ah yes
17:35:15 <oklopol> and i can't beat that with this mouse it seems, at least with my current technique
17:35:23 <oklopol> ais523: same pack?
17:35:27 * oklopol tries
17:35:27 <ais523> yes
17:41:37 <ehird> http://muaddibspace.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-halve-number.html
17:41:44 <ehird> Halving a number in N easy steps.
17:42:24 <ehird> [[
17:42:24 <ehird> The international community cannot appreciate enough that an age old question that drove many mathematicians mad or into private and financial ruin has finally been solved. Trivia tell us that even Ramanujan failed to solve the famous "halving a number" problem and still in 2002 Faltings is quoted with the remark "currently no one has an idea how to attack it and I strongly believe that any solution will provide profound new insights".
17:42:28 <ehird> While the correctness of the proof is still debated number theorists all over the world feel inspired to solve the next harder problem: finding the third of a number.
17:42:31 <ehird> ]]
17:42:33 <ehird> -- reddit comment
17:43:00 <ais523> <HaakonS> today is actually wednesday in finland
17:43:04 <ais523> can someone confirm or deny?
17:43:25 <oerjan> i can confirm that
17:43:26 <ehird> oklopol: quick we need information
17:43:33 <ehird> oerjan: you are a finn? OMG.
17:43:34 <oerjan> wait, did you mean truthfully?
17:43:39 <ais523> yes
17:43:51 -!- jix_ has quit ("...").
17:44:09 <oklopol> yeah this is Special Wednesday
17:44:50 <MizardX> ^ul (X)(d)(r)(a)(z)(i)(M)(()(:S)(!~*^:a~^))(~:^a~:*a~*~a~*a~^**a~a~*~a~*~a*^~^):a~^
17:44:50 <fungot> MiizzzzaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ...out of stack!
17:44:56 <oklopol> haha
17:45:12 <oklopol> so i solve the puzzle, and get stuck because there's a tiny extra puzzle too :D
17:45:16 <oklopol> \o/
17:45:28 <ehird> mizzle to the izzle to tah ard to tha ex
17:45:46 <oerjan> ehird: i say those guys are too clever by half
17:45:55 <ais523> MizardX: that's a neat little program
17:46:55 <MizardX> Though I don't know how to stop the iteration. See I ran out of stack.
17:47:11 <ehird> hmm
17:47:19 <ehird> i'm thinking about linked lists in unlambda again
17:47:22 <ehird> what you clearly need is fold
17:47:26 <ehird> fold can implement map and iteration
17:47:31 <ehird> so, the list has to be:
17:47:39 <ehird> (func)(list of a b c)^
17:47:40 <ehird> ->
17:47:48 <ehird> err
17:47:52 <ehird> (func)x(list of a b c)^
17:47:59 <AnMaster> <oklopol> it says something about "ideal time", i don't know the english term.
17:48:01 <AnMaster> par
17:48:02 <AnMaster> I think
17:48:03 <ehird> c x func b func a func
17:48:04 <ehird> or whatever
17:48:06 <AnMaster> bad translation
17:48:07 <ehird> AnMaster: too late.
17:48:09 <oklopol> AnMaster: ehird already told me
17:48:10 <ehird> i told him hours ago.
17:48:12 <AnMaster> ah ok
17:48:15 <AnMaster> hours?
17:48:25 <AnMaster> he said that like 15 minutes ago
17:48:27 <oklopol> yes, he told me exactly 2 hours, 46 minutes ago
17:48:32 <oerjan> ehird: except that is at least O(n) for everything, even head and tail
17:48:43 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but he just reminded me he had already told me.
17:48:53 <AnMaster> k
17:49:02 <ehird> oerjan: so what, it's underload :P
17:49:20 <oerjan> er you said unlambda
17:50:00 <ehird> errr right
17:50:01 <ehird> sorry
17:50:02 <ehird> i meant underload
17:52:44 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://muaddibspace.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-halve-number.html <-- written in some theorem proving language?
17:52:53 <AnMaster> which one
17:52:55 <ehird> Coq.
17:52:59 <AnMaster> ah
17:53:00 <ehird> It's for theorem masturbation.
17:53:04 <ehird> http://instantrimshot.com/
17:53:18 <AnMaster> flash missing
17:53:22 <AnMaster> :P
17:53:24 <ehird> just imagine it.
17:53:26 <ehird> In your head.
17:53:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well I know how a rimshot on a drum sounds...
17:54:03 <ehird> You have to imagine the button.
17:54:07 <ehird> Imagine yourself clicking the button.
17:54:18 <AnMaster> what button?
17:54:35 <ehird> The big red one.
17:54:42 <AnMaster> k... where?
17:54:51 <ehird> in your head.
17:55:05 <AnMaster> I have a big red button in my head?
17:55:07 <AnMaster> no
17:55:23 <oklopol> ais523: okay that was trivial
17:55:33 <oklopol> i just failed a few times, in very weird ways
17:55:52 <oklopol> (somehow managed to drop the magic stone just when i was about to solve it, or it just vanished :D)
17:56:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, level and pack?
17:56:23 <oklopol> err was it 103
17:56:41 <AnMaster> yay enigma crashed under gdb...
17:56:43 <AnMaster> lets see
17:56:48 <AnMaster> question marks
17:56:49 <AnMaster> fck
17:56:58 <AnMaster> the backtrace is two frames with question marks
17:57:01 <ais523> oklopol: #197 doesn't look insanely hard, but it does look insanely time-consuming
17:57:02 <AnMaster> so corrupted stack
17:57:02 <oklopol> anyway, if there are any actually hard levels, feel free to tell me, those two were trivial (the one with the swapping stones was pretty interesting though)
17:57:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, in which pack...
17:57:39 <ais523> #20 in Enigma 1.00 I can't figure out what you have to do at all
17:57:44 <ais523> so I don't know if it's hard or easy
17:57:46 <oklopol> ais523: well i don't really have the time even for this, i just want to see if there's anything actually hard
17:57:54 <oklopol> i mean you did say the levels get insanely hard
17:58:06 <ais523> oklopol: you're just much better at them than I am
17:58:08 <AnMaster> oh print 23?
17:58:11 <AnMaster> if you are in 1.0
17:58:13 <AnMaster> yeah
17:58:13 <oklopol> i mean i can't even solve the rubik's cube, so if i can solve a level, it can't be that hard :|
17:58:14 <AnMaster> trivial
17:58:16 <AnMaster> bf :)
17:58:25 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:58:32 <oklopol> ais523: i can try
17:58:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, I solved print 23 in 21 seconds
17:59:01 <AnMaster> better than par
17:59:21 <oklopol> well good for you, i don't use my mousepad all that fast.
17:59:42 <AnMaster> <ais523> #20 in Enigma 1.00 I can't figure out what you have to do at all <-- it says I solved it, must have been long ago... no idea how I did it
17:59:45 <oerjan> oklopol: i guess you're just not much good at group work
17:59:56 <AnMaster> I can't figure it out now
18:00:09 <oklopol> oerjan: hmm?
18:00:21 <oklopol> i know the basics of group theory
18:00:43 <oerjan> well then rubik's cube should be simple ;)
18:00:51 <oklopol> :)
18:00:56 <oklopol> ohh!
18:01:24 <oklopol> ah! permutations are a group
18:01:28 <ais523> ah, I just did #20, I figured what had to be done
18:01:38 <oklopol> ais523: damn, i haven't even started yet
18:01:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I solved it before, I don't remember
18:01:41 * oklopol starts
18:01:46 <AnMaster> ais523, tell me in /query...
18:01:51 <ais523> that's a knowledge puzzle
18:04:18 <ehird> hmm
18:04:23 <ehird> oh
18:06:43 <ehird> wow ocaml sucks at strings
18:07:07 <AnMaster> oh?
18:07:19 <ehird> yeah, there's not even a string-replace function
18:08:00 <ais523> ehird: OCaml isn't Perl, nor does it remotely try to be
18:08:11 <ehird> i know
18:08:16 <ehird> but every language has a basic string-replace.
18:08:34 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you write one iterating over the string?
18:08:45 <AnMaster> ehird, also not every language
18:08:45 <ehird> aha! ocaml batteries included to the rescue
18:08:49 <AnMaster> for example bf doesn't have it
18:08:55 <oklopol> #20 doesn't seem to make much sense
18:08:56 <ehird> AnMaster: 1) yes, but I don't want to 2) stop being so damn trivial
18:09:04 <oklopol> does it make sense but i'm just not seeing it?
18:09:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is possible to solve
18:09:20 <ais523> I solved it just now
18:09:20 <oklopol> of course it is
18:09:22 <ehird> val replace : str:string -> sub:string -> by:string -> bool * string
18:09:22 <ehird> replace ~str ~sub ~by returns a tuple constisting of a boolean and a string where the first occurrence of the string sub within str has been replaced by the string by. The boolean is true if a subtitution has taken place.
18:09:23 <oklopol> that's not what i asked
18:09:27 <ehird> ^___________________^
18:09:29 <ais523> as for whether it makes sense, there are a couple of subtle clues
18:09:30 <ehird> I mean, yay.
18:09:34 <oklopol> hmm
18:09:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, it does make sense when you know what to do
18:09:39 <oklopol> well i'll look for them
18:09:43 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
18:09:45 <AnMaster> hm
18:09:46 <AnMaster> ok
18:11:31 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:13:36 <oklopol> ais523: can you tell me the clues in pm?
18:13:41 <oklopol> i solved it
18:13:47 <oklopol> but i'm still not seeing wtf that was about
18:21:02 <oklopol> okay i'm gonna go read, will read logs for level tips
18:33:47 <ehird> hmm
18:33:52 <MizardX> if (?)(value)(func)^ produces (value2) then
18:33:53 <MizardX> (?)...(?)(?)(value)(func)(a~a*~a*~a*^a~a*~a*^:a~a*~a*~a*^^a~a*~a*^:^):^
18:33:53 <MizardX> produces
18:33:53 <MizardX> (?)...(?)(value2)(func)(a~a*~a*~a*^a~a*~a*^:a~a*~a*~a*^^a~a*~a*^:^):^
18:33:58 <ehird> MizardX: zwut
18:34:04 <MizardX> fold
18:34:10 <ehird> o
18:34:15 <ehird> but , how do you store elements in that list
18:34:23 <ehird> also that's kind of verbose per list
18:34:47 <AnMaster> it's underload, what did you expect?
18:34:53 <AnMaster> ais523, any progress on Feather?
18:34:58 <ais523> AnMaster: no, RL-busy
18:35:13 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, how goes that VHDL stuff?
18:35:29 <ais523> AnMaster: that's finished, I'm focusing on my OCaml project now
18:36:03 <AnMaster> ais523, so how did the VHDL stuff end? as you planned?
18:36:08 <AnMaster> I don't think you told me
18:36:18 <AnMaster> also what are you doing in ocaml?
18:36:29 <ais523> the VHDL stuff ended as intended
18:36:32 <ais523> and I got 95% for that module
18:36:43 <AnMaster> I guess that is good?
18:36:47 <ais523> and the OCaml stuff is the imperative -> functional -> behavioural -> hardware compile chain
18:36:54 <AnMaster> behavioural?
18:37:01 <ais523> AnMaster: VHDL-style
18:37:05 <AnMaster> ah
18:37:12 <ais523> but I'm working on some technicalities on the functional stage of the chain
18:37:12 <AnMaster> ais523, so this builds on the previous work?
18:37:16 <AnMaster> to add some more stuff?
18:37:34 <ais523> no, it's completely separate
18:37:38 <AnMaster> oh I see
18:37:44 <ais523> and in fact uses Verilog not VHDL
18:37:47 <AnMaster> ais523, you won't reuse anything then?
18:37:49 <ais523> but I'm not working on that bit
18:37:58 <ais523> AnMaster: no, that's actually against university rules for some reason
18:38:02 <AnMaster> heh
18:38:06 <ais523> but reusing wouldn't help, they're utterly different projects
18:38:12 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't the other project do mostly the same?
18:38:18 <AnMaster> compile to vhdl
18:38:20 <ais523> err, no
18:38:25 <ais523> the other project was me writing in VHDL
18:38:29 <AnMaster> ah
18:38:36 <AnMaster> ais523, then I confused them
18:38:44 <ais523> easy to do
18:38:57 <AnMaster> so what exactly then did you write in VHDL?
18:38:59 <ais523> I mean, you don't have to deal with an insane door most days...
18:39:09 <AnMaster> true
18:39:20 <ais523> AnMaster: a hardware self-routing packet-switching fabric for fixed packet lengths
18:39:22 <AnMaster> such door conditions can cause a lot of stress.
18:39:29 <AnMaster> talk about outlawing them
18:39:42 <AnMaster> zero tolerance
18:40:03 <AnMaster> (is that last one a Swedishism?)
18:40:11 <ais523> no, it's used in loads of languages
18:40:15 <AnMaster> ah
18:40:15 <ais523> pretty common in English too
18:40:18 <AnMaster> k
18:40:32 <AnMaster> ais523, it still sounds like politician talk
18:40:36 <AnMaster> at least in Swedish
18:41:41 <ehird> it is politician talk
18:41:56 <ehird> or rather, crazy pseudo-fascist politician talk. by which I mean, umm, all of them.
18:42:18 <AnMaster> heh
18:42:34 <ehird> (HOW CAN YOU TELL MY POLITICAL LEANINGS BY WHAT IM WRITING??????????????)
18:42:59 <AnMaster> ehird, Left wing?
18:43:06 <ehird> that was a reference to a bash.org quote
18:43:18 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? which one?
18:43:18 <oerjan> he's on reddit, must be libertarian :D
18:43:24 <ehird> oerjan: oh god no
18:43:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm. Not socialist?
18:43:31 <ehird> AnMaster: dunno, couldn't find it with google
18:43:39 <ehird> s/MY POLITICAL LEANINGS/IM 13/
18:43:43 <ehird> was the original
18:44:05 <AnMaster> ehird, because you said you were 13...
18:44:10 <AnMaster> that is why
18:44:15 <oerjan> pretty hard i'd say
18:44:22 <ehird> please tell me you're misinterpreting on purpose, AnMaster
18:44:30 <AnMaster> ehird, correct.
18:44:48 <ais523> ehird: was that a general sanity pleading, or just an IRP command?
18:44:55 <ehird> both.
18:45:03 <ehird> the latter enables the former
18:45:33 <AnMaster> however, from your writing I would otherwise have guessed maybe 15 years now. Your writing a year ago? 13 NOMADS...
18:45:34 <oerjan> PLEASE IGNORE THIS COMMAND
18:45:50 <ehird> AnMaster: hey, I still enjoy a good monad every once in a whil
18:45:51 <ehird> e
18:46:00 <ehird> also, the average age people think I am is around 20
18:46:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but you write it monad
18:46:18 <ehird> no no nomads are a type of monad
18:46:23 <ehird> they are the most ninjarist of all monads.
18:46:28 <ehird> they have an additional operation
18:46:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes you know a lot more than many of your age. I mean a 13 year old programming in haskell isn't common
18:46:45 <ehird> ninja : m (m (m a -> a) -> m (m a)) -> flip out and kill people
18:46:49 <ehird> s/:/::/
18:47:06 <AnMaster> but sometimes you act a bit silly which gives it away. Have to talk to you a lot before it is noticeable
18:47:18 <AnMaster> ehird, do you act as grown up outside IRC btw?
18:47:21 <ehird> old people never act silly
18:47:22 <ehird> just ask oerjan
18:47:32 <ais523> ehird: what's your definition of "old"?
18:47:35 <AnMaster> ehird, when they do they do it differently
18:47:41 <ehird> ais523: anything older than me
18:47:41 <oerjan> indeed, it's hormonally impossible
18:47:59 <ais523> oh, I act silly sometimes, just normally in RL rather than on the internet
18:48:03 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm much the same, except about a million times more shy
18:48:13 <AnMaster> ehird, You. Shy?
18:48:14 <AnMaster> wth
18:48:15 <ais523> ais523 is so much saner and more respectable than Alex Smith..
18:48:19 <ehird> yeah go figure right
18:48:23 <AnMaster> ais523, hah
18:48:30 <ehird> ais523: that's some reversal
18:48:50 <AnMaster> indeed
18:48:53 <oerjan> oerjan and Ørjan Johansen are both completely bonkers, alas
18:49:06 <ehird> AnMaster: me outside is a laugh, i take the optimal path to avoid people
18:49:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, ouch.
18:49:33 <ais523> oerjan: you have more published papers than me, though
18:49:40 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I often did that too.. Slightly less so nowdays.
18:49:58 <ehird> AnMaster: people's eyes seeing you, even in the corner, erodes your skin.
18:50:00 <ehird> true fact.
18:50:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, You are Norwegian... *ducks*
18:50:21 <AnMaster> ehird, really?
18:50:23 <AnMaster> I see
18:50:26 <ehird> yes.
18:50:44 <ehird> "PHP stopped being php when they turned off short-tags by default. It has got too enterprisy. We need need a new fresh PHP."
18:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, so you act like a normal teenager then :P
18:50:48 <ehird> haahahhaahaahahahhahaahahhhhhhahhahahahahahaha
18:50:57 <ais523> PHP used shorttags?
18:50:57 <AnMaster> short-tags?
18:51:01 <AnMaster> like
18:51:02 <ehird> <? ... ?>
18:51:04 <AnMaster> </>?
18:51:05 <ais523> oh
18:51:05 <ehird> vs <?php ... ?>
18:51:07 <ehird> XDDD
18:51:08 <AnMaster> ah
18:51:09 <ais523> I was so hoping it was </.
18:51:11 <ais523> * </>
18:51:14 <AnMaster> me too
18:51:19 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, except without the General Mishmash Cloud of Random Acquaintences common to teenagers
18:51:32 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I never had that either
18:51:41 <AnMaster> ehird, looks like we are similar ;)
18:51:45 <AnMaster> *shudder*
18:51:47 <ais523> actually, one of my lecturers here specifically warned me about norwegians
18:51:59 <AnMaster> ais523, really? on what grounds?
18:52:06 <ais523> he told me and everyone else in my year to never allow norwegians to con us into eating raw fish
18:52:13 <ehird> norwegians, muslins, what's the difference?
18:52:14 <AnMaster> ah
18:52:20 * oerjan cackles evilly
18:52:24 <ais523> apparently he was the victim of such a scheme in the past
18:52:25 <oerjan> wait, raw?
18:52:31 <AnMaster> hm
18:52:37 <AnMaster> lutfisk isn't raw is it?
18:52:38 <ehird> ais523: IT'S CALLED LUTEFISK STUPID
18:52:42 <AnMaster> horrible yes but not raw
18:52:48 <ehird> :p
18:53:08 <ehird> ugh, just thinking about lutefisk kills me
18:53:09 <oerjan> does dried cod count as raw?
18:53:12 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I guess he was badly damaged for life from it
18:53:18 <ehird> how can you eat that stuff
18:53:46 <AnMaster> ehird, Sweden has surströmming as well as lutfisk.... No idea how anyone can eat either
18:54:03 * oerjan thinks eating dried cod brings out his inner dog
18:54:04 <AnMaster> in Sweden it is mostly old people who eat it, those who grew up with it
18:54:04 <ehird> british food may be boring as hell, but it's not fish in lye
18:54:17 <ehird> and for that i salute i
18:54:18 <ehird> t
18:54:27 <AnMaster> ehird, your cakes are very dry iirc
18:54:30 <AnMaster> at least some of them
18:54:45 <AnMaster> true that is not as bad as fish in lye
18:54:47 <ehird> AnMaster: apparently britain is the only place that has a lot of biscuits
18:54:49 <ehird> confirm/deny?
18:55:02 <ehird> i mean like digestive biscuits and stuff.
18:55:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well, not sure.. We have a lot of biscuits here.
18:55:12 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Digestive_biscuits.jpg
18:55:13 <ehird> this kind of thing
18:55:16 <AnMaster> cookies?
18:55:19 <ehird> sort of
18:55:26 * AnMaster waits for firefox to load
18:55:49 <AnMaster> ehird, on the other hand, US/UK culture got everywhere nowdays
18:55:59 <ehird> true
18:56:03 <AnMaster> cultural imperialism
18:56:15 <AnMaster> so I don't know
18:56:22 <AnMaster> maybe once it was true
18:56:35 <AnMaster> but nowdays I know such stuff is rather common here too
18:57:22 <AnMaster> ehird, + my mother rather likes some English food
18:57:26 <AnMaster> like scones
18:57:49 <ehird> scones are nice
18:58:09 <AnMaster> so I may have experienced more than average English food
18:58:17 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah
18:58:21 <ais523> everyone likes scones, or ought to
18:58:25 <ehird> hwh
18:58:26 <ehird> *heh
18:58:33 <ehird> it should be a law
18:58:33 <AnMaster> ais523, with whipped cream.
18:58:35 <ais523> but they're traditionally very upper-class
18:58:39 <ehird> "Everyone SHALL like scones."
18:58:44 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
18:58:46 <AnMaster> really?
18:58:51 <ehird> meh, that's traditionally
18:58:57 <ehird> scones aren't exactly an uncommon thing
18:59:00 <ais523> yep, the traditions tend not to match reality
18:59:07 <AnMaster> indeed
18:59:07 <ais523> it's not like they're expensive or anything
18:59:25 <AnMaster> true
19:15:16 <ais523> ehird: eso-std.org has been squatted, by the way
19:15:25 <ehird> really?
19:15:25 <ais523> and parked
19:15:26 <ehird> awesome :D
19:15:32 <ais523> it's full of links about STDs
19:15:36 <ehird> ais523: and also ISO standards
19:15:39 <ehird> they've got it to a T
19:15:56 <ehird> ais523: this is good, think how much money they're wastign registering names like that :P
19:16:03 <ais523> not enough :(
19:16:08 <ehird> ah, hm
19:16:10 <ehird> This domain has expired
19:16:11 <ehird> It will be deleted in the next few days. If you are the owner of this domain, you still have a chance to renew it.
19:16:17 <ehird> i can actually renew it now from mydomain
19:16:22 <ehird> so they're just milking it before deleting it
19:16:26 <ehird> it hasn't been squatted by a third party
19:16:27 <ais523> oh, they must be using the 5-day park thing
19:16:28 <ehird> just my registrar...
19:16:36 <ais523> where you can register a domain for 5 days without paying
19:16:40 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure why it exists
19:16:42 <ehird> heh
19:16:58 <ais523> its only use seems to have been for parking and squatting
19:17:17 <ehird> anyway, I doubt it'll be squatted in a few days
19:17:46 <GregorR> Squatters watch domain name expiration logs, they usually squat within 10-15 minutes of a record expiring.
19:18:02 <MizardX> A bug in the previous fold. Here is a corrected example:
19:18:02 <MizardX> ^ul (X)(d)(r)(a)(z)(i)(M)((:S)(!))(:^~:*a~a*a~a*~a*^~^*^)(a~a*~a*~a*^a~a*~a*^:a~a*~a*~a*^a~a*~a*^^a~a*~a*^:^):^
19:18:03 <fungot> MiizzzzaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ...out of stack!
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19:18:34 <ehird> MizardX: termination = (), maybe
19:18:34 <ehird> ?
19:18:39 <ehird> also
19:18:42 <ais523> ehird: no way to detect that
19:18:46 <ehird> that doesn't help, you need a list to be atomic on the stack
19:19:23 <ais523> for Underload, the easiest list format I know of is ((1)((2)((3)((4)((5)())))))
19:19:34 <ehird> and how do you process that?
19:19:42 <ais523> Underlambda's going to have commands to manipulate lists of the form ((1)(2)(3)(4)(5))
19:19:45 <ehird> you can't detect end of list, certainly
19:19:47 <ais523> and you process it using ^ and !
19:19:58 <ehird> uh huh
19:20:00 <ais523> and you can detect end of list
19:20:02 <ehird> how
19:20:07 <ais523> an empty list is ()
19:20:15 <ais523> that pushes 0 items onto the stack
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19:20:25 <ais523> a nonempty list always pushes exactly 2 items onto the stack
19:20:35 <FireFly> Back
19:20:55 <ais523> so you can do ^!!^, and either the first or third stack element runs
19:21:18 <ais523> (the basic definition is, a list pushes its car and its cdr onto the stack, nil pushes nothing)
19:21:56 <ehird> ... that doesn't help if your list items aren't executable.
19:22:06 <ais523> yes it does
19:22:24 <ais523> A list containing just x is ((x)())
19:22:35 <ais523> so the contents of the first paren are never executed
19:22:40 <ais523> they're just popped
19:22:45 <ais523> *the paren containing the x
19:22:47 <ehird> hmm
19:22:55 <ehird> how could you map?
19:23:19 <ais523> you have to loop over the elements of the list
19:23:36 <ais523> it's not trivial to write, but it doesn't come out excessively complex
19:25:19 <MizardX> I developed a meta-language while writing the fold: A ("append") = ~a*, P ("prepend") = ~a~*, W ("wrap") = a, E ("exec") = ^ ... so bubbling up the nth element on the stack becomes: WA{n-2}E
19:25:58 <MizardX> wait... WA{n-2}E was reverse the top n elements
19:26:15 <MizardX> WPPPPAE was bring to top
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19:29:05 <MizardX> (x)(y)(z)(w)WPPAE -> (x)(y)(z)((w))PPAE -> (x)(y)((z)(w))AE -> (x)((y)(z)(w))AE -> ((y)(z)(w)(x))E -> (y)(z)(w)(x)
19:29:44 <MizardX> fold is (?)...(?)(?)(value)(func)(WAAAEWAAE:WAAAEWAAEEWAAE:^):^
19:30:44 <ehird> http://vimeo.com/1715318 <-- this video is awesome, especially the bit around half way through (don't skip to it, it'll spoil it)
19:40:52 <MizardX> Last picture looked like a fetus
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19:56:24 <oklopol> MizardX: i'm pretty sure that was the point
19:56:32 <oklopol> didn't you follow the story at all :|
19:56:37 <ehird> hahaha
20:01:46 <ehird> sweet, ocaml 3.11 has comprehensions
20:01:47 <ehird> [? i*i | i <- 1 -- 100 ; i mod 2 = 0]
20:16:04 <bsmntbombdood> OH SNAP
20:16:10 <bsmntbombdood> that's so new and innovative
20:16:42 <ehird> all you ever do is bitch, bsmntbombdood
20:16:48 <bsmntbombdood> yep
20:16:55 <bsmntbombdood> at least i'm dependable
20:16:57 <ehird> i think you want #bitch
20:18:13 <bsmntbombdood> no one there
20:18:20 <ehird> no, you are there
20:18:24 <ehird> you can listen to yourself.
20:24:37 <ehird> 09:45:34 <ehird> AnMaster: you know what continuations are right?
20:24:37 <ehird> 09:45:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I know, if they are what I think
20:24:38 <ehird> 09:45:52 <AnMaster> ie, anonymous method
20:24:40 <ehird> 09:45:58 <AnMaster> that can be passed around
20:25:21 <AnMaster> ehird, that must have been ages ago
20:25:30 <oklopol> um it was this morning
20:25:30 <ehird> 2008-03-31
20:25:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, no
20:25:38 <ehird> oklopol: XD
20:25:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah ages ago
20:25:43 <ehird> AnMaster: it's oklopol
20:25:44 <ehird> he was kidding
20:25:54 <AnMaster> yes and I ignore that fact
20:25:57 <oklopol> US ADULTS NEVER KID
20:26:02 <ehird> yeah you're 20
20:26:03 <ehird> ancient
20:26:16 <oklopol> we just lie
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21:31:36 <psygnisfive> dark rum, or single malt scotch?
21:31:46 <bsmntbombdood> i don't like rum
21:31:52 <bsmntbombdood> so scotch
21:31:55 <bsmntbombdood> but i prefer bourbon
21:33:55 <ehird> water</hadtobedone>
21:34:16 <bsmntbombdood> hey guys i need a new computer
21:34:18 <bsmntbombdood> what should i get?
21:34:26 <ehird> raw transisitors
21:34:44 <ehird> *transistors
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22:15:35 <ehird> http://twitter.com/mrxtothaz/status/1266000157 <- Xzibit attempts own meme, fails.
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23:44:04 <kerlo> I also need a new computer. What should I get?
23:47:42 <ehird> transistors
23:47:50 <Slereah> An analytical engine
23:57:51 <bsmntbombdood> ...
23:58:55 <bsmntbombdood> i need 2-4 cores, 4-8gb memory, 1-2 tb of disk (to be raid1ed), no need for video
23:59:07 <ehird> transistors
23:59:20 <ehird> also I am doubting you _need_ all that, just _want_.
23:59:59 <bsmntbombdood> ...
2009-03-02
00:03:28 <ehird> ..................
00:19:43 <olsner> wanting is just another kind of need
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02:01:58 <comex> well, at least you're trying to be nice to goethe
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06:07:30 <GregorR> "want" is to "need" as "theory" is to "fact" ... once you start getting technical, they're all the same :P
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09:26:28 <MizardX> >>> print hex(id(257))
09:26:30 <MizardX> 0xb713d8
09:26:32 <MizardX> >>> print hex(id(258))
09:26:34 <MizardX> 0xb713d8
09:26:36 <MizardX> >>> 257 is 258
09:26:38 <MizardX> False
09:27:48 <MizardX> >>> print hex(id(257)),hex(id(258))
09:27:48 <MizardX> 0xb713d8 0xb713cc
09:30:17 <MizardX> -5 to 256 is cached. The rest is subject to garbage collection and reallocation.
09:31:34 <bsmntbombdood> so?
09:32:19 <MizardX> To speed up calculation, store every number to be used in some collection. :)
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10:07:02 <AnMaster> http://www.makelinux.net/kernel_map
10:07:05 <AnMaster> cool
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14:01:28 <ehird> 02:01 comex: well, at least you're trying to be nice to goethe
14:01:32 <ehird> itym /query ehird
14:02:11 <ehird> AnMaster: nice page apart from the "ISRAEL IS AWESOME" link in the bottom right.
14:02:19 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed
14:02:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't notice that link before btw
14:02:43 <AnMaster> I was so busy looking at the interesting map
14:02:54 <ehird> i should put like, a link supporting pedophillia in the corner of all my highly interesting technical documents
14:03:01 <ehird> then nobody will criticize any part apart from that one
14:03:14 <AnMaster> hah
14:04:26 <ehird> http://linuxdriver.co.il/israel/hamas_and_press <- hamas are evil, black and wear green headbands.
14:04:28 <ehird> ic
14:04:41 <ehird> also, their children are shaped like elongated eggs
14:07:58 <ehird> hi ais523
14:08:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:09:20 -!- Judofyr has joined.
14:09:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
14:20:43 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/linuxdna-supercharges-linux-intel-cc-compiler
14:22:40 <AnMaster> ehird, AMD here
14:22:53 <ehird> doesn't icc work for amd?
14:22:59 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but it is slower than gcc
14:23:01 <AnMaster> on amd
14:23:02 <ehird> ah
14:23:18 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't like Intel have any interest in making it good on amd...
14:23:22 <ehird> true
14:23:27 <ehird> AnMaster: that's pretty bad, since gcc is one of the slowest compilers...
14:24:07 <AnMaster> ehird, slowest as in compile time or generating slow code? Or both?
14:24:12 <ehird> latter
14:24:22 <ehird> although gcc(1)'s execution time is pretty dismal, I don't know how that compares to others
14:24:34 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc clang is a lot faster.
14:24:41 <AnMaster> but of course it is far from ready yet
14:24:44 <ehird> yes, clang(1) is faster
14:24:49 <AnMaster> tcc is way way faster btw...
14:24:58 <AnMaster> but it only does basic constant folding iirc
14:25:00 <ehird> but, gcc's generated code pales in comparison to the vast majority of other compilers, iirc
14:25:04 <ehird> (mostly commercial)
14:25:07 <AnMaster> ehird, true
14:25:20 <AnMaster> it is a bit better in recent versions however
14:25:43 <AnMaster> I mean, compare GCC 3.4 to GCC 4.3 for example...
14:25:57 <ehird> I only have 4.0.1
14:26:12 <ehird> because that's what comes with Apple's latest devtools, and I could upgrade it manually but I wouldn't get apple's mods
14:26:28 <ehird> and I don't feel like finding out if it'd break something
14:26:46 <AnMaster> I have 3.4.6, 4.1.2, 4.2.1, 4.3.<whatever the latest is on archlinux>
14:26:56 <ehird> AnMaster: incidentally, I experienced an insanely bad bug in my gcc yesterday
14:26:59 <ehird> as in major breakage
14:27:08 <ehird> maybe if I give you a console log you can explain it?
14:27:10 <ehird> it's very simple
14:27:10 <AnMaster> I mean, only archlinux would make a compiler hit stable a few days after it was released...
14:27:20 <AnMaster> ehird, sure
14:27:22 <AnMaster> tell me
14:27:30 <AnMaster> and file a bug after checking the last gcc ;)
14:27:34 <AnMaster> 4.0.1 is kind of old
14:27:41 <ehird> it's almost certainly not a gcc bug
14:28:04 <AnMaster> ehird, also llvm-gcc uses apple mods. llvm-gcc is on 4.2.1 currently iirc
14:28:35 <ehird> apple have heavily invested in llvm so I'm not surprised
14:28:39 <AnMaster> indeed
14:28:49 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is this bug you hit?
14:28:53 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/404648.txt?key=kjkf82sgtymwyt44eapphq
14:29:00 <ehird> warning: your eyes will pop out in shock at the WTFiness
14:29:02 <AnMaster> key?
14:29:04 <AnMaster> huh
14:29:17 <ehird> oh, I set it as a private paste so it doesn't show up in the recent pastes list
14:29:35 <AnMaster> hm
14:29:43 <ehird> AnMaster: but yeah, surely the cpp can't be THAT horrifically broken?!?!
14:29:50 <AnMaster> err
14:29:57 <AnMaster> ehird, something is wrong yes.
14:30:07 <ehird> terribly wrong..
14:30:12 <AnMaster> maybe (haven't checked) cpp standalone defaults to --traditional or something?
14:30:21 <ehird> what's the opposite of --traditional?
14:30:34 <ehird> also, this works on a recent version of gcc/linux, so I doubt that
14:30:48 <AnMaster> ehird, don't know, and don't remember if the exact option name was that. Was just trying to come up with a hypothesis
14:31:01 * AnMaster checks man page now
14:31:32 <ehird> yeah I looked
14:31:37 <ehird> but couldn't find anything relevant
14:31:50 <ehird> the person who tested it on linux thinks it's apple shipping a broken gcc
14:31:59 <ehird> but I find it hard to believe their gcc team is that incompetent
14:32:15 <AnMaster> ehird, my cpp does it correctly
14:32:19 <AnMaster> 4.1.2
14:32:21 * ehird nod.
14:32:29 <AnMaster> $ cpp --version
14:32:29 <AnMaster> cpp (GCC) 4.1.2 20070214 ( (gdc 0.24, using dmd 1.020)) (Gentoo 4.1.2 p1.1)
14:32:36 <ehird> ...
14:32:38 <ehird> that's your gdc cpp
14:32:40 <ehird> ? lol
14:32:43 <AnMaster> ehird, no
14:32:48 <ehird> "( (gdc 0.24, using dmd 1.020))"
14:32:54 <AnMaster> ehird, the same version string is appeneded to all of gcc
14:32:55 <AnMaster> -_-
14:32:57 <ehird> ah
14:33:00 <AnMaster> extremely stupid yes
14:33:03 <ehird> AnMaster: you're meant to install gdc separately :P
14:33:21 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? Just turned on the d useflag for GCC
14:33:28 <ehird> right, that's wrong
14:33:35 <ehird> you're meant to have a separate gcc called gdc
14:33:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I do, but all are built at once
14:33:47 <AnMaster> it seems
14:33:51 <AnMaster> *shrug*
14:33:51 <ehird> weird
14:34:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean it builds g++, gcc, gfortan, gdc, whatever-the-objc-one-is-called
14:34:44 <AnMaster> --enable-languages=c,c++,d,objc,treelang,fortran
14:34:49 <ehird> mm
14:34:49 <AnMaster> according to gcc -v
14:34:56 <ehird> oh well, gdc is obsolete anyway
14:35:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, so is this gcc and your mom :P
14:35:33 <ehird> except that's literally; the creator of the d language has said about as much and the last release was in 2070
14:35:35 <ehird> *2007
14:35:57 <AnMaster> +/- 63 years
14:36:17 <ehird> quite
14:37:40 <AnMaster> btw, did you know gdb includes large part of binutils in the source tarball?
14:37:52 <ehird> no, but I am not surprised.
14:38:21 <AnMaster> ehird, and that gcc has it's own modified copy of libtool included?
14:38:25 <ehird> wow, #macosx is so pointless to be in. it's all random chatter about bullshit and cannabis, and not one bit of os x talk
14:38:29 <AnMaster> for internal use during building
14:38:43 <ehird> i know this because I left it on when going to sleep so I have a full nightsworth of logs.
14:38:55 <ehird> AnMaster: O_O
14:39:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well, that is because everything just works on OS X, so they have nothing else to talk about ;P
14:39:23 <ehird> ha
14:40:35 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and that gcc use autoconf but not automake.
14:40:48 <ehird> that's not surprising
14:40:58 <ehird> gcc's fucked up enough that automake would probably be impossible
14:41:14 <AnMaster> yeah
14:41:27 <ehird> it's enough to make kernighan disown C...
14:41:30 <AnMaster> ehird, actually some parts of it use automake
14:42:03 <AnMaster> libjava, libstdc++ and a few other
14:42:07 <AnMaster> but nost most parts
14:42:18 <ehird> which reminds me that I was going to write an article on how to kern Han characters and sign it Brian W Kerninghan
14:42:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that pun is too bad even for me to say it...
14:42:49 <ehird> :)
14:43:05 <AnMaster> err that was not grammatically correct, was it?
14:43:52 <ehird> i think it might be technically correc
14:43:52 <ehird> t
14:43:55 <ehird> but it was very awkawrd
14:43:56 <ehird> *awkward
14:44:04 <ehird> 'that pun is too bad for me to even say it' would be more idiomatic
14:44:08 <ehird> and yes, I know that's less logic
14:44:08 <ehird> al
14:44:33 <AnMaster> err that wouldn't be the same
14:44:38 <ehird> it is
14:44:54 <ehird> it's one of the most ridiculous idioms
14:45:06 <AnMaster> the first one implied it was so bad it was even worse than my bad jokes :P
14:45:12 <ehird> so does mine
14:45:22 <ehird> it's just an unintuitive idiom
14:45:54 <AnMaster> hmm ok... it *seems* to mean that it is so bad that I would never say it (and not implying in any way that I make bad jokes)
14:46:13 <ehird> well
14:46:24 <ehird> AnMaster: try 'that pun is too bad for even me to say it'
14:46:35 <AnMaster> hm ok
14:49:22 <fizzie> Even pun, that too bad is, for me to say it is. Even.
14:49:40 <fizzie> I hope I didn't miss any words.
14:50:25 <ehird> pun bad too is me say even for
14:51:32 <AnMaster> ehird, another cool thing: valgrind itself doesn't use system libc, but has it's own one that it uses internally. And then I'm not talking about redirecting malloc() and such...
14:51:36 <Asztal^_^> the original, "that pun is too bad even for me to say it...", seemed fine to me
14:51:46 <ehird> AnMaster: O_O
14:51:54 <ehird> Asztal^_^: 'even for me to' is bad
14:52:01 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc it can't use system libc since it need to do stuff before libc is loaded
15:05:23 <fizzie> aaabdeeefhiimnnooooprsstttttuvy. Now the letters are more ordered.
15:05:23 <AnMaster> ehird, for more info see docs/internals/why-no-libc.txt in the valgrind source tarball
15:05:23 <ehird> i'd use valgrind if it supported my platform
15:05:23 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, but porting valgrind isn't easy
15:05:23 <AnMaster> considering it does all sort of strange tricks
15:05:23 <ehird> mm
15:05:23 <fizzie> Darwin/x86 is marked "high" in valgrind's "porting plans" priority table. Dated Feb 1, 2007. Lacking suitably interested people, I guess.
15:05:23 <ehird> Heh
15:05:23 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe you could help!
15:05:23 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not too hot on the internal details of Darwin/Mach
15:05:23 <AnMaster> true
15:05:24 <AnMaster> ehird, hm it would probably be harder than porting to other *nix on x86 since you can't reuse the ELF stuff even
15:05:24 <ehird> yes
15:05:24 <AnMaster> doesn't valgrind work on freebsd iirc?
15:05:24 <ehird> i think so
15:05:24 <AnMaster> though iirc it works better on linux
15:05:24 <ehird> it still saddens me that we even need tools like valgrind, being able to leak memory shouldn't be something you can do by accident...
15:05:24 <fizzie> On the other hand: "There are experimental ppc32/darwin and x86/FreeBSD ports for Valgrind 2.X. They could be made to work with 3.X with some effort."
15:05:24 <AnMaster> ehird, or use uninitialised variables?
15:05:24 <ehird> I've followed a "with some effort" pointer before, fizzie. That way lies madness.
15:05:24 <AnMaster> or have tread race conditions
15:05:24 <AnMaster> thread*
15:05:24 <ehird> AnMaster: what the fuck is an uninitialized variable anyway
15:05:24 <ehird> variables store a value
15:05:24 <ehird> from a theoretical point of view, an uninitialized variable is just ridiculous
15:05:24 <AnMaster> ehird, in C it is like this: int foo(int bar) { int quux; return quux + bar; }
15:05:24 <ehird> yes, well, that's C for you
15:05:24 <ehird> i presume it made sense in the 70s
15:05:24 <AnMaster> ehird, true. Valgrind is for languages like C and C++
15:05:24 <ehird> and gets() also made sense in the 70s...
15:05:24 <AnMaster> which are still used
15:05:24 <AnMaster> ehird, no way gets() made sense even back then
15:05:24 <ehird> sure it did
15:05:24 <AnMaster> explain please...
15:05:24 <ehird> if you didn't listen to the program when it told you to enter up to 30 characters you got fired
15:05:28 <ehird> because your job was to operate the programs
15:05:32 <AnMaster> hah
15:05:44 <ehird> there weren't any malicious users
15:05:47 <ehird> it's like trying to break your toaster
15:05:50 <ehird> you can do it, but who does
15:06:13 <AnMaster> if they were network connected I'm sure we would have lots of toaster hackers...
15:06:25 <ehird> now THAT'S some criminal activity I could get into
15:06:28 <AnMaster> because then you can break someone else' toaster...
15:06:39 <ehird> "i pwnt ur toaster"
15:06:46 <ehird> "now it burnz all your bread. and ur hand."
15:06:46 <AnMaster> someone else's?
15:06:48 <AnMaster> or what
15:06:49 <ehird> "HAHAHAHAHAHA"
15:07:13 <fizzie> I'm sure spammers would hack toasters to burn viagra ads to all bread.
15:07:32 <ehird> should just burn the viagra into the bread.
15:07:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, you got a dangerous mind...
15:07:41 <ehird> "Now you've had a sneak peek, why not buy some more?"
15:07:50 <AnMaster> -_-
15:07:56 <AnMaster> anyway.
15:08:01 <AnMaster> "someone else's"?
15:08:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm more worried about the unholy scramjet-equipped cyborg pigeons, an abomination against nature.
15:08:06 <AnMaster> or how do you say that...
15:08:08 <ehird> someone else's is valid syntax.
15:08:19 <AnMaster> ehird, really? it looks very weird
15:08:25 <ehird> not to me
15:08:28 <AnMaster> hm
15:08:33 <ehird> what looks odd to be is omitting the s after s'
15:08:33 <fizzie> SEP field is the Somebody Else's Problem field.
15:08:42 <AnMaster> ehird, true that looks worse
15:08:50 <ehird> my brain doesn't mentally parse the invisible s
15:08:58 <AnMaster> ehird, but trying saying it out loud?
15:09:02 <AnMaster> with the s
15:09:02 <ehird> yet most style guides recommend it
15:09:05 <ehird> AnMaster: sure, you repeat the s
15:09:09 <ehird> "Joneses"
15:09:17 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I haven't seen any programmable-image toasters, just boring fixed-image ones. Certainly in 2009 it should be possible to read toast-pictures from an USB stick or something.
15:09:22 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, but to me it seems weird after "else"
15:09:29 <ehird> shrug
15:09:36 <AnMaster> which isn't a noun or pronoun (sp?).
15:09:37 <ehird> "elseses"
15:09:49 <ehird> also, it's a (pronoun*)
15:09:54 <fizzie> Elsifs.
15:09:56 <ehird> pointer dereferencing is implicit
15:10:10 <AnMaster> also scramjet is fun...
15:10:30 <ehird> "Things you should know: the Illuminati is run by reptilian astral entities known throughout history as Djinn, Nagas, Sheti, Angels/Demons, Dragons, Drucul etc. that rule the higher echelons of Freemasonry and do foul sex&torture rituals usually with young children getting eaten. They'll probably stage terror attacks soon, then will come an American union(WW3 too) & a staged alien invasion w/Draconian-saviours! Get storable food, support Stewart Swerd
15:10:31 <ehird> low, Alex Jones, Dr.Deagle & David Icke!"
15:10:33 <ehird> — Youtube
15:10:38 <ehird> Thanks for the info.
15:10:51 <AnMaster> how much shorter travel time for Europe-US could you get with a scramjet aircraft?
15:10:55 <AnMaster> compared to a Concorde or such
15:11:01 <ehird> AnMaster: scramjet cyborg pigeon?
15:11:05 <ehird> they travel faster than light.
15:11:16 <ehird> before you start talkin' physics, they're an abomination against nature, remember?
15:11:18 <AnMaster> ehird, not those, I mean a scramjet aircraft
15:11:24 <ehird> oh. those are boring.
15:11:32 <AnMaster> ehird, still they are quite fast
15:11:53 <AnMaster> anyway scramjet cyborg pigeon aren't an abomination against nature. unholy scramjet-equipped cyborg pigeons are
15:11:59 <AnMaster> there is a important difference there
15:12:19 <AnMaster> scramjet cyborg pigeon are just dead.
15:12:43 <AnMaster> pigeons*
15:12:46 <ehird> 15:08 ehird: AnMaster: I'm more worried about the unholy scramjet-equipped cyborg pigeons, an abomination against nature.
15:12:47 <ehird> i said unholy
15:12:53 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> AnMaster: scramjet cyborg pigeon?
15:12:55 <AnMaster> not there
15:12:55 <AnMaster> :P
15:13:03 <ehird> sure, but I missed the abomination part too
15:13:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> before you start talkin' physics, they're an abomination against nature, remember?
15:13:22 <AnMaster> that implied they were
15:13:22 <ehird> and i said unholy before
15:13:36 <AnMaster> ehird, ah so you just forgot a word then there
15:13:39 <AnMaster> right
15:14:35 <fizzie> Hmm, this "introduction to AI" course programming-assignment/AI-tournament thing is proving to be rather popular this year too. 36 groups already registered.
15:15:02 <ehird> fizzie: wait, finns doing AI? shit. shit. robot invasion soon.
15:15:09 <ehird> stealing food and securing house ->
15:15:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you sould like Randall...
15:16:11 <ehird> we share common safety instincts
15:16:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well in his case it is those velicoraptors or whatever the name was.
15:16:46 <fizzie> We already had this tournament thing last year, and all we got was a couple of Java classes that play a board game. Your fears might be exaggerationary.
15:17:01 <ehird> fizzie: but _oklopol_ might be in this one.
15:17:03 <fizzie> Calicoraptors. They are more tasteful.
15:17:04 <ehird> do you see?
15:17:11 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Calicoraptors. They are more tasteful. <-- ?
15:18:30 <fizzie> I was partially referring to the (according to WP) US term for this cat-colorization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tortie-flame.jpg -- but you can interpret it as you like.
15:19:57 <fizzie> I'm not sure what to make of the summary. It says "Tortoiseshell Cat. -- tortoiseshells have no white fur" but the cat in question does have some white. Unless it's just an overexposed photo, but I don't think so.
15:21:36 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/abominations.txt -- my 'cut'-based approach for separating the speaker's nickname didn't really understand a CTCP ACTIONy comment, but on the other hand it looks much more hilarious that way.
15:22:04 <ehird> :DDD
15:22:17 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:23:00 <fizzie> ehird: You are the undisputed abomination-leader, though.
15:23:15 <oerjan> wait, what?
15:23:19 <ehird> I abomin all the time.
15:23:25 <ehird> oerjan: http://zem.fi/~fis/abominations.txt.
15:23:26 <ehird> A happy accident.
15:24:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, Hello
15:24:24 <oerjan> oh well.
15:24:35 <oerjan> hi there
15:24:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, read IWC?
15:25:03 <ehird> x_x
15:25:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I was asking first this time... That is much better
15:25:26 <oerjan> AYEEEH
15:26:42 <oerjan> i see kyros's logic is impeccable as usual
15:27:33 <AnMaster> indeed a good summary of what I was going to say
15:27:55 <oerjan> also a good summary of the annotation, i see
15:28:15 <oerjan> well, given a certain leap in logic
15:28:24 <oerjan> er, i mean
15:28:38 <oerjan> it stands to reason that's also a good summary of the annotation.
15:28:52 <AnMaster> er
15:28:54 <AnMaster> what?
15:29:33 <oerjan> i think you really need to work on your logic :D
15:31:22 <AnMaster> it stands to reason that I don't
15:32:12 <ehird> X = it stands to reason that X.
15:32:12 <oerjan> well then we agree
15:32:14 <ehird> In X.
15:32:58 <oerjan> ehird: it stands to reason that you have not understood today's IWC.
15:32:59 <AnMaster> ehird, X therefore Y, Y therefore X
15:33:35 <AnMaster> it stands to reason that it stands to reason
15:33:57 <ehird> '??җ??Ati???ը?k?֣?"H9?[Ä>??\GF?4?<$F?`
15:33:57 <ehird> y`W???׃??
15:33:58 <ehird> ??r%??3?hD?????T?????4?U?Ž5`?$?9aAEY?3c??jl¨jWq?? G??=?JL???49W?,户??͎x?k??m@5s????]??C?ʪBɊ׌?b5\??I??kNfK?
15:34:01 <ehird> lI???
15:34:03 <ehird> ~??ސ˺??R=??J?!s?u??(]I$[?"h`f??S????X* ?0≞?]%??CGL???ϼJ??݅?n?5?E'E?????'
15:34:06 <ehird> Gc?'?(?J˿X???L???OLY?W?™T??V?R$D*?8g??89f??Z?#u?YAs ?JydZWǵ"?3??-?\?"???
15:34:07 <oerjan> hm mezzacotta hall of fame is picking up again
15:34:09 <AnMaster> don't dump binary data on irc...
15:34:09 <ehird> o&?#!v???>?~?ڑ?n? ?|<=??G????:[}???????????4'Rnl???G??l?UrbfV??Xqɘ????,?wb?u?Iv???o???`#J???#?N?.?DS»q?,u0???F?h"????(F?6?ރ????i?????;???????L?3?>?
15:34:12 <AnMaster> ehird, stop it
15:34:13 <ehird> V???[Y?ރ0o?f
15:34:15 <ehird> ...stands to reason.
15:34:16 <ehird> I meant to put that before but failed.
15:34:17 <AnMaster> ah
15:34:21 <ehird> Oh honestly, get yourself a decent client :P
15:34:28 <ehird> Surely it could filter out garbage?
15:34:28 <oerjan> i assume that contains some unicode
15:34:33 <AnMaster> ehird, actually it did
15:34:34 <ehird> also, that's longer than I intended.
15:34:39 <AnMaster> but it was still spammy
15:34:42 <ehird> my terminal font is smaller, see
15:35:31 <AnMaster> ehird, fun thing to annoy users with default irssi settings: /exec -o echo -e \\007
15:35:39 <AnMaster> adjust for your client syntax
15:35:45 <AnMaster> :P
15:36:04 <AnMaster> don't know if +c filters that
15:36:08 <ehird> that'd be a nice flooding script
15:36:11 <AnMaster> +c filters colours and bold and such
15:36:19 <ehird> just tack a bunch of \\007s on to your regular flood message
15:36:24 <AnMaster> ehird, did your client beep?
15:36:28 <ehird> no
15:36:31 <AnMaster> good
15:36:33 <oerjan> <kerlo> I also need a new computer. What should I get?
15:36:35 <ehird> but it's a gui one
15:36:41 <ehird> so it's unlikely to react to terminal codes
15:36:41 <AnMaster> ehird, mine filters it
15:36:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection reset by peer).
15:36:50 <ehird> +c filters all non-printable-unicode
15:36:51 <oerjan> a black hole. that should have maximal information density.
15:36:51 <ehird> I think
15:36:54 <ehird> well, apart from things like \1
15:37:00 <AnMaster> ehird, hm certain mirc versions *did* beep on \007 iirc
15:37:11 <AnMaster> also \\007 is just to escape it to echo...
15:37:16 <AnMaster> (and bash)
15:37:29 <ehird> well, mirc emulates a terminal pretty much
15:37:35 <ehird> including the select-is-copy behaviour
15:37:53 <AnMaster> ehird, +c doesn't. I saw a box saying [0722] in what you pasted above. Which is not printable
15:38:06 <ehird> Hm.
15:38:17 <ehird> ab
15:38:22 <ehird> See anything there?
15:38:25 <ehird> I guess \7 isn't copyable./
15:38:26 <AnMaster> yes: ab
15:38:30 <ehird> har har
15:38:50 <oerjan> <GregorR> "want" is to "need" as "theory" is to "fact" ... once you start getting technical, they're all the same :P
15:38:53 <AnMaster> and no, byte 7 isn't copyable
15:39:13 <AnMaster> err that was ambiguous
15:39:14 <oerjan> necessity is the mother of death, as i might say more often.
15:39:15 <AnMaster> anwyay
15:39:16 <AnMaster> anyway*
15:40:52 <ehird> <GregorR> "want" is to "need" as "theory" is to "fact" ... once you start getting technical, they're all the same :P
15:41:01 <ehird> that kind of thinking is unscientific and ultimately destructive
15:41:17 <oerjan> <ehird> also, their children are shaped like elongated eggs
15:41:21 <oerjan> but are they kosher?
15:41:39 <ehird> oh lawd
15:41:52 <oerjan> maybe not put the israelis on that idea
15:43:00 * oerjan has no clue whether that is grammatical
15:45:45 <ehird> think so
15:46:10 <oerjan> <ehird> wow, #macosx is so pointless to be in. it's all random chatter about bullshit and cannabis, and not one bit of os x talk
15:46:22 <ehird> let me guess, you're going to
15:46:26 <ehird> take "bullshit" literally
15:46:30 <ehird> c/d
15:46:31 <oerjan> maybe it means cannabis in some foreign language
15:46:39 <oerjan> WRONG!
15:46:46 <ehird> Ah yes, the veritable "Macosx plant".
15:46:49 <oerjan> er what's c/d?
15:46:53 <ehird> confirm/deny
15:47:15 <oerjan> yay, i managed to comply without understanding
15:49:32 <oerjan> 07:05:47 <ehird> it's like trying to break your toaster
15:49:32 <oerjan> 07:05:50 <ehird> you can do it, but who does
15:49:39 <oerjan> your children, obviously.
15:50:58 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: I'm more worried about the unholy scramjet-equipped cyborg pigeons, an abomination against nature.
15:51:13 <oerjan> well the question here is whether scramjets can evolve...
15:51:49 <oerjan> might want to go via a dragon stage...
15:53:41 <oerjan> <ehird> my brain doesn't mentally parse the invisible
15:53:44 <oerjan> mine neither
15:53:51 <ehird> X_X
16:00:19 <oerjan> and that concludes my logreading. you should now be safe for a while, at least unless you say anything.
16:07:50 <ski__> anything.
16:09:51 <oerjan> you may or may not now still be safe. anyhow, food.
16:10:31 -!- ehird has set topic: Ⱒ GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:16:19 <AnMaster> ...
16:16:24 <AnMaster> ehird, what are you trying to do?
16:16:30 <oerjan> my reaction exactly
16:16:35 <AnMaster> I see [2C22] in that topic
16:16:36 <ehird> what, it's a GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA.
16:16:38 <ehird> what did I do wrong?
16:16:43 <AnMaster> meaning you used some control code
16:16:47 <ehird> http://benfry.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/spidery-170x205.png
16:16:47 <oerjan> oh
16:16:49 <ehird> no.
16:16:54 <ehird> it's a GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA.
16:17:00 <AnMaster> * ehird has changed the topic to: [2C22] GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D
16:17:02 <ehird> the character that mocks you.
16:17:17 <ehird> AnMaster: control char / unicode learn2differenciate
16:17:34 <Asztal^_^> not http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/cjb/glagolitic.png ?
16:17:38 <ehird> *differentiate
16:17:40 <AnMaster> ehird, does any font have the complete unicode?
16:17:42 <ehird> Asztal^_^: no.
16:17:44 <ehird> AnMaster: code2000.
16:18:11 <AnMaster> ehird, is that symbol some phonetic one btw?
16:18:15 <AnMaster> it looks like it could be
16:18:23 <oerjan> hm that looks like the kind of letter you wouldn't like to meet in a dark alley
16:18:24 <ehird> it's glagolitic whatever that is
16:18:29 <AnMaster> k
16:18:34 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_alphabet
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16:18:55 <AnMaster> oh I see
16:22:03 * ehird has conversation with human-that-fails-turing-test
16:22:23 <ehird> (http://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/199)
16:24:03 <ski__> hm .. is there any voynich glyphs in unicode ?
16:24:13 <ehird> ski__: don't think so
16:24:15 <ehird> would be nice
16:24:19 <ehird> ask the conscript peeps?
16:25:08 <ehird> I'm going to tell this person I own the website I'm on
16:25:14 <ehird> Wonder how he'll react.
16:26:09 <ehird> No response. I guess this ain't covered in the script.
16:26:32 <ehird> "I am sorry but it is owned by somebody else. :) How may I help you today?"
16:26:36 <ehird> Time to be enraged!
16:28:04 <ehird> "Just to verify, do you own Webgreeter.com?"
16:28:08 <ehird> Like hell I do!
16:30:17 <ehird> I clicked away and lost the window :(
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17:13:01 <AnMaster> ski__, voynich?
17:13:28 <ehird> voynich manuscript
17:13:31 <ski__> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript>
17:13:34 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript
17:13:36 <AnMaster> ah
17:13:37 <ehird> snap
17:15:53 <AnMaster> afk for a few hours (out of town)
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19:22:27 <ehird> 10:17:39 <ehird> #define LintSucksSoGodDamnMuch (void)printf
19:22:29 <ehird> xD
19:22:31 <ehird> i am funny.
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20:09:28 <Jophish> I'm having a bit of trouble implementing a Modulo operator in brainfuck
20:09:39 <Jophish> would anybody be able to point me to am example?
20:10:59 <ehird> it's on the wiki
20:11:04 <ehird> lemme find it
20:11:09 <Jophish> oh great
20:11:14 <Jophish> thanks very much
20:11:18 <ehird> Jophish: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#Divmod_algorithm
20:11:28 <ehird> does division too but should be easy to hack to your needs
20:11:53 <Jophish> sure
20:11:59 <Jophish> This is a livesaver!
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20:12:14 <Jophish> I have been doing some stupidly long algorithm for this
20:12:26 <tombom> what, is this for your misson-critical application at work or something
20:12:37 <ehird> Jophish: :)
20:12:38 <ehird> tombom: haha
20:12:49 <ehird> he programs airplane flight systems in bf
20:13:31 <Jophish> how did you find out?
20:13:42 <tombom> it's stable!
20:14:03 <Jophish> one of the resons I chose it. plus it is very portable
20:14:10 <Jophish> what's not to like!
20:14:42 <ehird> :D
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20:22:55 <Jophish> hmm, having this short algorithm makes it much harder to form my code into a funny shape
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20:57:39 <ehird> http://imgur.com/1977 oh god yes
20:57:43 <ehird> mm
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21:10:11 <Impomatic> Hmmm...
21:21:19 <Impomatic> I've just about finished implementing a minimal Forth in Redcode. 36 Forth words in 85 Redcode instructions.
21:21:55 <ehird> neat!
21:21:59 <ehird> can we see? :)
21:22:14 <ehird> also, how do you run redcode things like that?
21:22:20 <ehird> can pmars run 'standalone' programs?
21:22:43 <Impomatic> I'm using exmars streams, which has extra opcodes for i/o
21:22:56 <Impomatic> ARES also has i/o, but implemented differently
21:23:14 <ehird> Ah...
21:24:06 <Impomatic> But with a few macros, it'd be possible to make them equivalent. It's possible to check which mars a program is being run in.
21:25:16 <Impomatic> I had to make a few compromises though :-( E.g. rename a few words + -> plus, * -> times, etc
21:25:21 <ehird> http://www.macosiphone.co.cc/ <- macintosh system 7 on an iphone :-|
21:25:24 <ehird> Impomatic: aw, why?
21:30:39 <Impomatic> ehird: because I'm implementing using macros, which have a limited character set
21:30:59 <ehird> ok
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22:22:20 <kerlo> "What is the area of the largest rectangle that can be inscribed in the ellipse 4x^2 + 9y^2 = 36?"
22:23:06 <kerlo> My method: Note that 4x^2 + 9y^2 = 36 is actually a circle. Do the obvious. Note that it's an ellipse instead.
22:23:06 <ehird> 7
22:24:58 <kerlo> No, the number after 7.
22:25:09 <kerlo> I assume you took that from A013655.
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22:49:44 <ehird> kerlo: xD
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23:10:09 <oklopol> how you doing
23:10:52 <ehird> "The main contender, ReiserFS, dropped out of the race because its creator decided to pursue other interests"
23:10:53 <ehird> XDD
23:10:55 <ehird> oklopol: fine kthx u
23:12:33 <oklopol> well, i failed my first exam
23:12:41 <oklopol> so i had to change my life philosophy
23:12:50 <oklopol> which took a while, thus the offline time
23:13:09 <oklopol> (nah i was just too lazy to open a new server window)
23:13:20 <ehird> oklopol: wait did u rly failers :|
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23:13:51 <oklopol> well.
23:13:59 <oklopol> depends on the definition of failing
23:14:04 <oklopol> by my definition yes
23:14:11 <ehird> oklopol: so you got 99%?
23:14:24 <fizzie> 4. (3) fail, go bad, give way, die, give out, conk out, go, break, break down -- (stop operating or functioning; "The engine finally went"; "The car died on the road"; "The bus we travelled in broke down on the way to town"; "The coffee maker broke"; "The engine failed on the way to town"; "her eyesight went after the accident")
23:14:43 <fizzie> oklopol: Did your exam CONK OUT?
23:16:03 <oklopol> well i couldn't integrate sqrt(x^2 + 1) without using the formulas we were given, mainly because i got tired halfway through; anyway resulted in me almost tearing the paper in half and leaving, i then removed the whole answer to the exercise, and did another question instead, managed to remember a definition wrong and proved the wrong thing.
23:16:20 <oklopol> s/exercise/question
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23:16:58 <oklopol> so at least they should give me a zero from that, so at max i can get 75%, which as a grade would be like 3/5
23:17:02 <oklopol> well
23:17:07 <oklopol> that's pretty much a fail by any definition
23:17:26 <fizzie> It's not a fail by the "0 grade equals fail" definition, which in some sense is the official one.
23:17:41 <oklopol> well, true, i didn't fail the course
23:17:54 <ehird> oklopol: 75% isn't bad.
23:18:00 <fizzie> Fail the battle, not the war.
23:18:01 <ehird> by which i mean that's pretty damn good.
23:18:03 <ehird> :P
23:18:11 <oklopol> umm no it's my first non 5/5
23:18:19 <oklopol> so it's very bad.
23:19:05 <ehird> oklopol, just
23:19:06 <ehird> shut up
23:19:06 <ehird> :
23:19:08 <ehird> P
23:19:18 <oklopol> anyway if i fail more of these exams i have piled up here, i will probably stop caring about my grades completely
23:19:19 <oklopol> i mean
23:19:39 <oklopol> if i try my best, and it just isn't good enough.
23:19:43 <oklopol> that's
23:19:45 <oklopol> you know
23:19:47 <oklopol> depressing.
23:20:07 <ehird> yeah 75% is practically earth shattering failure
23:20:09 <oklopol> ehird: heh, that's what people keep telling me, i don't understand why :D
23:20:11 <ehird> you should just go home man
23:20:16 <ehird> and like
23:20:17 <fizzie> We've got some people here who do the whole "non-perfection == not acceptable" thing re grading, but personally I've never really seen the point.
23:20:18 <ehird> kill yourself
23:20:31 <oklopol> ehird: it's a shattering failure considering how much i did for the course.
23:20:41 <ehird> hahahaha oklopol you amuse me.
23:20:49 <oklopol> :)
23:21:10 <fizzie> See, you have a budding career as an ehird-amuser there.
23:21:21 <ehird> YES
23:21:27 <ehird> i'll give you food!
23:21:30 <oklopol> fizzie: no point, just an arbitrary goal.
23:21:52 <fizzie> Why can't this web-based study-result-browsamator compute grade point averages? Silly. It can in the PDF reports, but not in the web interface.
23:21:57 <ehird> oklopol: soooo ... don't do it again?
23:21:57 <oklopol> something i decided to do that isn't all that destructive
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23:22:00 <ehird> pretty simple
23:22:10 <ehird> if it was like 50% i'd understand
23:22:15 <ehird> but it's not going to happen again now is it :P
23:22:16 <fizzie> Maybe "averaging" is such a computationally intensive algorithm they can only do it offline.
23:22:41 <oklopol> ehird: 50%? you won't pass the course with a 50%
23:22:43 <fizzie> In most of our exams 50 % of points is the line between 0 and 1.
23:22:52 <fizzie> Approximately, anyway.
23:22:57 <ehird> oklopol: thus, I said, if it was 50% i'd understand.
23:23:00 <oklopol> well okay you will usually pass it with exactly that, as fizzie pointed out
23:23:07 <ehird> but it's not, it's 75%.
23:23:21 <fizzie> Why is this PDF report in Swedish? I don't get it.
23:23:41 <oklopol> no one gets swedish
23:24:22 <ehird> no one is swedish
23:24:26 * oklopol wished ais here
23:24:29 <oklopol> *wishes
23:26:07 <fizzie> Personally I only get a a-failure-am-I feeling out of grades that are <3. (Less than three, not a-heart-symbol.)
23:26:45 <fizzie> And I've got some of those too, which is why I don't like looking at these reports.
23:26:56 <oklopol> fizzie: anyway the point is pretty much just that after you get 5/5 from your first 6 or so exams, it's easy to go "hey, maybe i could get a 5/5 from EVERYTHING", and the obsession begins.
23:27:10 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it could go like that.
23:27:41 <oklopol> i did a few courses during high school tho, didn't really study for them, so i have a few 3's already
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23:27:59 <ehird> oklopol: all(5/5)-1 isn't too bad either though is it huh.
23:28:00 <oklopol> (average was 5/5 already when i started though)
23:28:05 <ehird> okay i understand it's not pretty
23:28:08 <ehird> i kinda sympathize there
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23:29:26 <oklopol> aesthetics are important. i love looking at numbers.
23:29:45 <ehird> oklopol: okay, make a pattern out of your grades
23:29:46 <ehird> liek
23:29:50 <oklopol> :)
23:29:55 <ehird> 5 5 5 5 3 4 4 5 4 3 3 4 5
23:29:57 <ehird> i dunno
23:30:04 <lament> 333333333333333333333333333
23:30:16 <oklopol> lament: is that pi?
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23:30:20 <ehird> 5 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1
23:30:21 <lament> yes.
23:30:31 <oklopol> lament: i remember seeing it somewhere
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23:30:45 <oklopol> how did euler's constant go then?
23:30:52 <oklopol> the same with 2's?
23:31:21 <lament> no
23:31:25 <lament> it's more complicated
23:31:29 <ehird> also how is that pi
23:31:35 <lament> 2718171817181718171817181718171817181718171817 etc
23:31:53 <oklopol> right right
23:32:00 <lament> crap, that's wrong
23:32:13 <lament> 27182818281828182818281828
23:32:22 <oklopol> ah yes
23:32:27 <oklopol> :P
23:32:46 <oklopol> how dare you make my randomness funny!
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2009-03-03
00:04:52 -!- evenant has quit.
00:11:59 <ehird> 11:25:59 <ais523> but autoconf noticed that youre system didn't need that, and commented out the line
00:12:00 <ehird> 11:26:05 <ais523> s/youre/you're/
00:12:51 <Sgeo> Four words four words!
00:14:45 <oklopol> :D
00:14:52 <Sgeo> oklopol, OOTS fan?
00:15:09 <oklopol> object oriented transsexuality
00:15:11 <oklopol> yes
00:15:33 <oklopol> but err is it some rpg kinda thing?
00:15:51 <oklopol> i think i've heard my friends talk about something very close to that
00:16:19 <oklopol> ah order of the stick
00:16:24 <oklopol> do you mean the comic or the game?
00:16:36 <oklopol> probably the first one. i've read very little of it.
00:18:01 <Sgeo> Comic
00:18:40 <oklopol> i've read a few random ones, it's not really for me.
00:20:55 <oklopol> i don't really follow any comics, i just occasionally accidentally read whole comics because i just keep pressing next until they run out
00:26:06 <oklopol> why isn't my body symmetric
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03:46:32 <kerlo> Hi, friendly programmers. How would I turn the Haskell expression (all (`elem` ['a'..'z'])) into Python?
04:19:58 <poiuy_qwert> i know python, if you explain what that does i can give you the equivalent
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04:22:57 <poiuy_qwert> kerlo
04:23:38 <kerlo> That checks that all characters in a string are not before 'a' and not after 'z'.
04:23:55 <kerlo> s/not/neither/; s/and not/nor/
04:24:11 <Slereah> What does it return, a boolean?
04:24:37 <Slereah> In python that would be stuff not in ['a'..'z'], IIRC
04:24:45 <kerlo> A boolean, yes.
04:24:53 <Slereah> Just look up the "in" operator in python
04:25:16 <kerlo> I take it ['a'..'z'] iz the same thing as 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'.
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04:25:57 <Slereah> Yes, though I forgot the exact syntax.
04:26:01 <Slereah> It's been a while
04:27:14 <poiuy_qwert> [c for c in yourString if ord(c) in "acdefghijklmopqrstuvwyz"]
04:27:26 <Slereah> wat
04:27:35 <kerlo> string.lowercase, I guess.
04:27:37 <poiuy_qwert> sorry
04:28:02 <poiuy_qwert> if yourString == ''.join([c for c in yourString if ord(c) in "acdefghijklmopqrstuvwyz"])
04:28:41 <kerlo> I'm not filtering out all non-lowercase-letter characters...
04:28:51 <poiuy_qwert> good point
04:29:21 <kerlo> I refuse to use a language other than Python!
04:29:36 <Slereah> Then totally use not in
04:29:40 <kerlo> I don't really know anything other than Python and Haskell, and the Glasgow Haskell Compiler doesn't work where I want it to.
04:29:47 <kerlo> Oh, you said not in.
04:30:18 <kerlo> >>> 'foo' not in string.lowercase
04:30:19 <kerlo> True
04:30:23 <poiuy_qwert> import re; isonlyletters = re.compile('[^a-zA-Z]'); if isonlyletters.match(yourString):
04:30:32 <kerlo> That comes across as wrong.
04:30:48 <Slereah> The operator not in is defined to have the inverse true value of in.
04:31:01 <kerlo> Well, then, not in isn't helping.
04:31:01 <Slereah> The operators in and not in test for collection membership. x in s evaluates to true if x is a member of the collection s, and false otherwise
04:31:17 <Slereah> Is it not?
04:31:27 <kerlo> Using regexes is kind of ugly, but oh well.
04:32:03 <kerlo> import re; nice = re.compile('[a-z]{2-8}'); print nice.match(yourString)
04:32:17 <kerlo> Will that be True if and only if yourString is 2-8 letters a-z?
04:32:53 <poiuy_qwert> yeah, but not including A-Z
04:33:01 <kerlo> You know what? I'm just going to do something else entirely. :-P
04:33:10 <poiuy_qwert> you need to add re.I as second parameter or add A-Z in the [] too
04:33:13 <kerlo> Attempt to do everything; if some exception is thrown, undo everything.
04:34:14 <kerlo> Sound like a plan?
04:34:37 <poiuy_qwert> go ahaid
04:34:47 <kerlo> I mean, I'm going to check for failure anyway.
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10:02:53 <fizzie> A rather unusual job: http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00001618.html
10:03:13 <fizzie> Note how altruistic they are: "We also do quite a bit of manual research. We *suffer* so your kids don't."
10:13:49 <oklopol> :P
11:15:28 <oklopol> <nooga> have you seen the photo of the ultimate nerd? <<< no, i haven't
11:17:16 <oklopol> <Keymaker> if someone knows any good befunge interpreter <<< i hear this cfunge thing is pretty cool
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11:51:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, thanks
11:52:43 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
11:53:20 <ais523> hi
11:53:22 <AnMaster> question: what is the exact issue with threaded intercal and external C code
11:53:32 <AnMaster> I might have an idea how to solve it
11:53:41 <AnMaster> but it depends very much on what the exact issue is
11:54:17 <ais523> AnMaster: the problem is that threaded intercal relies on program flow always being inside main
11:54:29 <ais523> and it uses setjmp/longjmp to record where in main() it's got to
11:54:36 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... but surely it will sometimes call stuff like putchar or printf?
11:54:48 <ais523> yep
11:54:54 <ais523> but that's inside a statement, and statements are atomic
11:54:58 <ais523> between statements it's always in main()
11:55:05 <ais523> within a statement it can call whatever it likes
11:55:25 <AnMaster> ais523, would it be possible to mark it to always interact with the first main thread or something like that?
11:55:31 <AnMaster> and other threads being pure intercal
11:55:54 <AnMaster> ais523, considering you could have pure C threads that never return but run in the background iirc
11:56:11 <ais523> cooperative multithreading
11:56:16 <AnMaster> true
11:56:27 <AnMaster> ais523, a global interpreter lock then?
11:56:29 <AnMaster> :)
11:56:31 <AnMaster> nah
11:56:31 <ais523> and the real problem is that each thread has a separate NEXT stack
11:56:37 <ais523> which corresponds to a different call stack in C
11:56:50 <AnMaster> ais523, setcontext/getcontext?
11:56:56 <ais523> so they effectively have to be different threads, or different processes, in the C code if you're mixing threading models
11:57:00 <ais523> I do have an idea on how to solve it
11:57:04 <AnMaster> oh?
11:57:34 <AnMaster> ais523, my idea was to make it so only one intercal thread interacted with C. But maybe that won't work.
11:58:10 <AnMaster> not the way you describe the issue
11:58:16 <ais523> which would be INTERCAL thread = C process
11:58:26 <AnMaster> hm
11:58:46 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean you have OS level threads in ick?
11:58:56 <AnMaster> as the solution
11:59:00 <ais523> not at the moment, but the only way to do C + threaded INTERCAL seems to be to use them
11:59:03 <AnMaster> then how would you sync them
11:59:05 <ais523> and OS level processes, not threads
11:59:11 <AnMaster> ais523, what about setcontext/getcontext?
11:59:12 <ais523> and synched using mutexes and other such constructs
11:59:56 <AnMaster> ais523, separate processes would sure mess up IFFI.
12:00:08 <ais523> well, yes
12:00:14 <ais523> but I tend to document such restrictions
12:00:17 <AnMaster> yeah
12:00:20 <ais523> and work out insane solutions to them later
12:00:50 <AnMaster> ais523, cfunge even uses unlocked stdio when possible to reduce overhead... Definitely not thread safe
12:01:03 <ais523> thread-safe != process-safe
12:01:11 <AnMaster> nor process safe
12:01:21 <ais523> part of the reason to use processes not threads is that pretty much nothing's shared between INTERCAL threads
12:01:32 <AnMaster> oh btw cfunge now has an option to use fully buffered stdout, reducing time on mycology when not redirecting to /dev/null by about 20%
12:01:33 <ais523> only abstention status is shared
12:02:01 <AnMaster> for /dev/null about 1-2% due to also using a larger buffer
12:02:35 <AnMaster> ais523, hm what about scheduling? isn't it documented to be on a round robin basis? or is that "may change in future"?
12:03:50 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I believe cfunge could be partly made thread safe though, without locks...
12:04:18 <ais523> AnMaster: the documentation's more fun than round-robin
12:04:22 <AnMaster> 1) only funge space + a few other bits of global state are shared between funge threads...
12:04:26 <ais523> it's documented as "will not get out of synch by more than one command"
12:04:31 <AnMaster> 2) funge space could use CAS for the static area
12:04:35 <ais523> which round-robin fulfils, but which could be fulfilled in other ways too
12:04:57 <AnMaster> yeah that is messy...
12:05:26 <AnMaster> ais523, is that command == one statement?
12:05:49 <AnMaster> or some sub-statement thing?
12:06:09 <ais523> one command is meant to == one statement
12:06:11 <AnMaster> ah
12:06:22 <ais523> although WHILE messes it up quite badly, I'm not sure if I've documented that
12:07:13 <AnMaster> FILE, REFC, SOCK, SCKE and a few other would need locks btw... In core only funge space and creating/destroying threads...
12:07:19 <AnMaster> but funge threads are round robin
12:07:22 <AnMaster> so pointless
12:07:45 <AnMaster> nah, not even going to try to make cfunge thread safe
12:07:55 <AnMaster> or multi-process safe
12:08:24 <AnMaster> (well it is, doesn't use shared memory or such, but then stuff like funge space isn't shared. separate instances)
12:12:01 <AnMaster> blergh this sucks. Was profiling a program. Turns out that most time is spent in one of the functions with shortest time / call. And there are enough 1594330251 calls to it.
12:12:15 <AnMaster> + there is no simple way to make it faster...
12:12:24 <ais523> in that case, change your algorithm so it's called less
12:12:35 <ais523> that was my solution in a similar profiling situation
12:12:50 <AnMaster> ais523, called from lots of different places in the code. And large code base
12:13:05 <AnMaster> (crossfire-server)
12:16:28 <AnMaster> actually there seems to be a tiny bit of thing that could help here...
12:38:39 <oklopol> unhello.
12:38:42 <oklopol> ->
12:43:14 <fizzie> When leaving, always remember to unhello any helloes you might have said when entering a conversation, otherwise the channel might run out of resources.
12:44:02 <ais523> fizzie: what OS are you using? All modern OSs restore helloes to the common pool when a client quits on a connection to an IRC server running there...
12:44:31 <fizzie> I still think it's good manners to explicitly unhello.
12:44:54 <ais523> presumably that's why his became so popular instead, they're automatically deallocated when they go out of scope
13:00:23 <AnMaster> heh
13:01:01 <AnMaster> urgh, profiling data so large that gprof takes over 2 minutes to load it... wth
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13:02:36 <ais523> 2 minutes?
13:02:46 <ais523> when profiling Perl, it often takes 10 minutes to half an hour to process all the details
13:02:49 <Mony> plop
13:04:21 <Slereah> Hey Mona
13:04:35 <Mony> je suis pas Mona Lisa ok >_<
13:05:47 <AnMaster> ais523, really?
13:05:47 <AnMaster> wow
13:05:59 * ais523 vaguely wonders if a Mony / Slearah conversation here would be in English or French
13:06:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I would have expected it to be a lot faster
13:06:12 <Slereah> But when I say Mona, I mean Mona from 2ch.
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13:09:21 <Mony> [14:06] * ais523 vaguely wonders if a Mony / Slearah conversation here would be in English or French <-- maybe in frenglish
13:10:27 <AnMaster> hm
13:24:21 <ehird> so
13:24:26 <ais523> so what?
13:24:34 <ais523> sorry, couldn't resist
13:24:38 <ehird> three things
13:24:39 <ehird> "We *suffer* so your kids don't."
13:24:42 <ehird> excellent job.
13:24:45 <ehird> 04:29 kerlo: I don't really know anything other than Python and Haskell, and the Glasgow Haskell Compiler doesn't work where I want it to.
13:24:47 <ehird> that explains a lot.
13:24:50 <ehird> and
13:24:55 <ehird> I'm probably going to implement INTERCAL.
13:25:01 <ais523> yay at the last one
13:25:09 <ais523> the INTERCAL market could do with a new compiler to drive innovatoin
13:25:11 <ais523> *innovation
13:25:18 <Slereah> Market.
13:25:25 <Slereah> Tons of people buy INTERCAL.
13:25:28 <ais523> what version do you plan to implement first? INTERCAL-72? something custom? something compatible with one of the existing compilers?
13:25:37 <ehird> probably INTERCAL-72 with my own tweaks
13:25:44 <Slereah> What I would totally buy is the original INTERCAL compiler on punchcards.
13:25:44 <ehird> for example, I'm probably going to change the error messages a bit
13:25:49 <ehird> but the actual generated code should behave properly
13:25:54 <Slereah> I could frame it or something
13:26:01 <ehird> ais523: i have plenty of good ideas: compiler options in the filesize, for instance.
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13:26:36 <ais523> ehird: filesize? that's ingenious, I was planning to put it in the last-modified time
13:26:40 <ais523> but filesize is probably more portable
13:26:51 <ehird> exactly
13:26:55 <ehird> portability is key!
13:27:11 <ehird> oh, I also want to include an INTERCAL IDE
13:27:17 <ehird> and I have a seriously perverse way of doing it
13:27:20 <ais523> I wanted to write an INTERCAL IDE, too
13:27:22 <ais523> I have plans
13:27:26 <ehird> hard on me, hard for the user
13:27:37 <ais523> involving an entirely new sort of highlighting that isn't syntax highlighting but is just as useful
13:27:47 <ais523> actually, I should implement that seriously, it might be useful for other languages too
13:27:52 <ais523> also, I was going to add unlockable content
13:28:05 <ais523> because I was trying to think "what's the most ridiculous thing I can put in an IDE", and unlockable content was it
13:28:12 <ehird> ais523: let's put it this way: the non-OS X distribution will be a qemu running linux that boots right into GNUStep and starts the ide
13:28:22 <ehird> then it communicates with your filesystem & INTERCAL with a socket
13:28:30 <ehird> (you have to manually start intercal with the interfacing program)
13:28:52 <ais523> how does it act on OS X?
13:29:00 <ais523> we can combine our ideas, they aren't incompatible so far
13:29:31 <ehird> ais523: on OS X, it acts like a windows application circa win95, ported to OS X (badly)
13:29:36 <ehird> except it was originally written for OS X
13:29:39 <ais523> ok
13:29:47 <ais523> what graphics toolset?
13:30:16 <ais523> I suggest X11 plus Athena widgets
13:30:23 <ais523> but designed in such a way it nevertheless only works on OS X
13:30:25 <ehird> ais523: I was planning on using an unholy blend of Cocoa and Carbon — Carbon so that I could make native controls behave completely unlike normal
13:30:36 <fizzie> Ooh, I like the "unlockable content in an IDE" thing. "You have to grind at the project settings dialog before you unlock version control integration."
13:30:40 <ehird> haha
13:30:49 <ehird> ais523: my plans are mostly interface-wise, so yours will blend well with mine
13:31:17 <ehird> ais523: I was planning to do the hyper-detailed status bar of files as a bunch of unfocused windows aligned below in a grid; if you move one, it snaps back, if you resize one, it snaps back, if you focus it, it focues the text
13:31:23 <ehird> if you move the file window, they tag along dozily
13:31:29 <ehird> but if you move one over another, they swap places
13:31:37 <ehird> (like a toolbar rearrangement dialog)
13:32:29 <ais523> anyway, my revolutionary highlighting idea is repetition highlighting
13:32:42 <ehird> heh, clever
13:32:54 <ehird> the agile junkies would love that (because they'd try and stop it happening)
13:33:07 <ais523> I haven't worked out all the details, but things are highlighted according to how much of the surrounded code was repeated, and how many times the locality had been repeated
13:33:18 <ais523> that would have saved me a couple of days in one project I did
13:33:32 <ais523> trying to track down a bug which was due to accidentally pasting in the first half of a table of contents twice
13:33:37 <ais523> *constants
13:34:21 <ehird> ais523: do you think people would actually use it with the silly vmware distribution? :D
13:34:30 <ais523> at least one person would
13:34:36 <ehird> you?
13:34:36 <ais523> but preferably qemu, I've got that installed already
13:34:40 <ais523> yes, me
13:34:42 <ais523> to try it out
13:34:44 <ehird> possibly qemu
13:34:47 <ehird> iirc vmware is faster
13:34:48 <ais523> but lots of other people would have a look though
13:34:50 <ehird> and also, it can share the FS
13:34:51 <ehird> without a socket
13:35:01 <ais523> actually, I suggest you just distribute it as a bootable .iso
13:35:18 <ais523> that nonetheless only boots inside a virtualiser
13:35:18 <ehird> ais523: I think it's funny when a native distribution ends up being a wrapper against an emulator of some kind
13:35:22 <ehird> for example, Google Earth on linux uses Wine
13:35:28 <ehird> (yes yes wine isn't an emulator)
13:35:56 <ais523> well, even linking against a compatibility library is amusing
13:36:06 <ehird> ais523: I was going to call it IDE: INTERCAL Destruction Enabler
13:36:17 <ehird> or perhaps Defenestration
13:36:21 <ehird> INTERCAL Defenestration Enabler
13:36:42 <ais523> I had a great name for it, but I can't remember what it was
13:39:04 <ehird> I had an excellent name for my compiler yesterday but I forgot it
13:39:26 <ais523> does it end "ick"?
13:39:33 <ehird> oh, wait
13:39:38 <ehird> I was going to call the compiler eww(1)
13:39:51 <ehird> or perhaps ugh(10
13:39:53 <ehird> *1)
13:39:54 <ais523> a break with tradition, that's an INTERCAL tradition in itself
13:39:59 <ehird> exactly!
13:40:05 <ehird> ais523: I'm going to have a custom license, just to infuriate debian
13:40:11 <ais523> surely you should break with tradition by not breaking with tradition, though?
13:40:16 <ehird> it'll be contradictory, but also have clauses on how to resolve contradictions
13:40:20 <ais523> also, make it one that's GPL-compatible at least in case I need to steal code
13:40:32 <ehird> ais523: it should basically come down to the MIT license
13:40:36 <ais523> ok
13:40:42 <ais523> actually, even better:
13:40:45 <ehird> i was also going to have an EULA
13:40:59 <ehird> which basically required the user to be insane to use the program, or at least to pretend to be insane while interacting with it
13:41:10 <ehird> but the EULA presenter would be written in intercal
13:41:13 <ais523> add a clause stating that all advertising to do with the distribution must mention and thank the Regents of the University of California, although mention that they don't endorse your code
13:41:17 <ehird> so first it'd compile the compiler, with the eula bit off
13:41:22 <ehird> which will only compile the eula
13:41:26 <ehird> it'll compile the eula, run it
13:41:26 <ais523> also, I'd just reject the EULA
13:41:29 <ais523> and use the code anyway
13:41:31 <ehird> then the eula will flip the bit on the compiler
13:41:42 <ehird> ais523: I'd make sure it doesn't actually impose any obligations
13:41:46 <ehird> also, you'd have to manually hex edit the file
13:41:49 <ais523> it will presumably be open-source, I should be able to edit out the EULA
13:41:51 <ehird> and find out which bit to change
13:42:36 <ais523> why would that require hex-editing, anyway?
13:42:39 <AnMaster> ehird, why would qemu be needed for this IDE btw?
13:42:43 <ais523> besides, most EULAs can be modified using strings
13:42:56 <ehird> AnMaster: because it'd require gnustep, and also modify stuff in /etc and the like
13:43:16 <AnMaster> very insane and not really in an intercal-y way
13:43:20 <AnMaster> intercaly*
13:43:32 <ais523> AnMaster: anything sufficiently different from expectations is intercally
13:43:36 <AnMaster> hm
13:43:43 <ais523> people are starting to form certain expectations about INTERCAL, we need to shock them out of it
13:43:43 <ehird> requiring qemu to run an IDE that looks like a windows 95 application ported to OS X ported to GNUStep sounds sufficiently intercal to me
13:43:45 <ehird> in a modern way, that is
13:43:54 <ehird> it's applying the principles of INTERCAL to a modern age.
13:43:56 <ehird> or something.
13:44:13 <AnMaster> ehird, that is too post-modern
13:44:25 <AnMaster> oooh. post-intercal?
13:44:35 <ehird> no, post-modern would be the compiler starting qemu, opening the IDE, which runs a preloader, and then opens vi on the host
13:45:45 <ehird> ais523: how do you think an INTERCAL repl would work?
13:46:02 <ais523> each line you write is appended to a program that accumulates lines
13:46:10 <ehird> that's just boring
13:46:17 <ais523> then it runs the whole thing, repeating input that you gave on previous runs, and not printing output that it printed on previous runs
13:46:27 <ais523> so you can do a COME FROM or whatever and modify what you wrote on previous lines of the REPL
13:46:34 <ais523> it sounds boring, but it drives me mad thinking about the implications
13:47:32 <ais523> the best bits of INTERCAL are the bits that look innocent
13:47:51 <ehird> anyway, my plan is to announce the new compiler's first working release to alt.lang.intercal on april 2nd, having never talked about it outside of here previously
13:47:57 <ehird> "just when you thought the releases were over..."
13:48:09 <ais523> sounds good, I'll try to keep it secret in the meantime
13:48:31 <ehird> I wonder if anyone else wrote an INTERCAL compiler while being unable to code INTERCAL?
13:48:36 <ehird> actually, probably most of them
13:48:41 <ehird> certainly the princeton one
13:48:50 <ais523> are you planning to write a compiler or an interp?
13:48:56 <ais523> and at least the princeton people wrote syslib.i
13:48:59 <ehird> ais523: neo-interpilerism
13:49:08 <ais523> it had a couple of bugs, but they at least tried
13:49:44 <ehird> what does the clc in clcintercal stand for?
13:49:45 <ehird> the author?
13:49:51 <ais523> yep, it's his initials
13:50:29 <ehird> maybe i'll call mine CLWNPA
13:51:16 <ehird> oh, I also intend to have an object system based on Conscientious objectors
13:53:04 <ehird> how does that work? Beats me.
13:54:25 <ehird> Huh.
13:54:25 <ehird> http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/nelson.html
13:54:33 <ehird> Ted Nelson, the Xanadu kook, comments on COME FORM.
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14:04:48 <ehird> I think I'll have an Evil Wrangler.
14:04:55 <ehird> Instead of ghc's Evil Mangler.
14:05:05 <ehird> It will be written in Illiterate Perl, which is Perl with the keywords changed to chavspeak.
14:05:16 <ehird> The Illiterate->Regular Perl translator will be written in a new variant of Literate Perl.
14:05:26 <ehird> So you need to translate the translator so you can translate the wrangler.
14:05:29 <ehird> Ahem. Xzibit?
14:07:06 <ehird> Oh look, qt 4.5 is out.
14:07:22 <ehird> "The latest version of Webkit is now integrated with the toolkit"
14:07:23 <ehird> Nice.
14:08:23 <ehird> http://tinyarro.ws/ <- This is stupid, IDN is flaky and a lot of software will explode on contact with the unicode.
14:09:06 <ais523> I thought the point of it was so you could make software explode on contact with unicode
14:09:14 <ehird> no, it's meant to be serious
14:09:20 <ehird> also, good freaking luck linking to that IRL
14:09:24 <ehird> which is a major use for tiny urls
14:09:27 <ais523> yes
14:09:47 <ais523> they mentioned getting around the Twitter byte limit, but that doesn't work, it's a byte limit not a character limit...
14:10:04 <ehird> yeah, twitter is written in Ruby, and they expect unicode awareness? :P
14:10:24 <ehird> it's not hard to get a one byte domain if you really want too, per previous discussions here
14:10:26 <ais523> is Ruby Unicode-aware?
14:10:41 <ehird> ais523: ruby 1.9 can do unicode, before that: nope.
14:10:50 <ehird> well, there was half-baked hacky support for it, but it broke most things.
14:11:07 <ehird> ais523: it had excellent SIJS support, though
14:11:26 <ehird> (the main reason for no unicode is basically that all the users were japanese for the majority of its lifetime)
14:12:34 <ehird> ais523: hey, a link to TAEB on proggit!
14:12:41 <ais523> yes, I know
14:12:50 <ais523> that's what persuaded paxed to finally fix the exploit
14:12:59 <ais523> although he's keeping the nature of the fix secret for the time being
14:13:08 <ais523> it's not actually about TAEB itself, just the article was posted on the TAEB blog
14:13:26 <ehird> do nethack devs get some sort of perverse enjoyment out of secrecy?
14:13:40 <ais523> probably not
14:13:48 <ais523> but we suspect it's a security-through-obscurity fix
14:14:03 <ehird> lawl.
14:14:31 <ehird> "You can verify this by typing "nethack" into two separate terminals, then quickly hitting enter in each"
14:14:42 <ehird> or, y'know, spawn two `screen`s with nethack in simultaneously via the shell
14:14:45 <ehird> :P
14:14:56 <ehird> instead of trying to perfect your 1337 alt-tab-enter skillz
14:15:41 <ehird> "paxed, one of the admins of nethack.alt.org, patched nethack to use a truly random seed so that this specific exploit can no longer be used on that server."
14:15:44 <ehird> please say hotbits
14:17:22 <ais523> actually, the huge hoohah was that it was patched to use a seed from /dev/urandom, but it was cracked anyway
14:17:32 <ais523> there are people brute-forcing the seed from the random numbers observed in-game
14:17:32 <ehird> hahaha
14:17:58 <ais523> apparently that's the exploit that paxed recently fixed, nobody's sure how yet
14:19:02 <ehird> ais523: funny thing:
14:19:07 <ehird> twitter's 140 byte limit comes from SMS
14:19:16 <ehird> do you think you can enter these links over SMS? :P
14:19:22 <ehird> pretty silly overall
14:19:31 <ais523> I have no idea how to type unicode on a mobile phone
14:19:40 <ais523> apart from the characters that are on the iterated-through lits
14:19:42 <ais523> *lists
14:19:46 <ehird> you can't
14:19:48 <ais523> I don't particularly care to try, either
14:19:50 <ehird> well, on a regular phone
14:19:59 <ehird> on an iphone you could probably hack up something to do it
14:20:04 <ehird> or any other programmable phone
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14:22:59 -!- M0ny has changed nick to Mony.
14:27:37 <ais523> re the topic: is GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA actually in Unicode?
14:27:39 <ais523> it isn't in my font
14:27:41 <ehird> yep
14:27:44 <ehird> here's what it looks like:
14:27:54 <ehird> http://benfry.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/spidery-170x205.png
14:28:03 <ehird> as you can tell, it is a spidery creature that laughs at you.
14:29:55 <ehird> hmm, starting an intercal compiler is hard
14:30:02 <ehird> all of the standard test programs are implementation specific...
14:30:21 <ais523> syslib.i is a standard test program and not implementation specific
14:30:41 <ais523> but then, you need some way to drive it to run
14:30:44 <ehird> but it doesn't -do- anything that you can perceive :P
14:30:47 <ais523> what do you mean by standard test programs, anyway?
14:30:55 <ehird> things like hello world, cat, etc
14:31:02 <ais523> pit/tests in C-INTERCAL has quite a few test programs, many of which aren't implementation-specific
14:31:04 <ehird> basic trivial programs that you make work with your implementation as a first step
14:31:20 <ais523> the reason that things like hello world and cat are specific is that you need extensions to INTERCAL-72 just to be able to write them
14:31:30 <ehird> yes
14:35:03 <ais523> what do you plan to ignorret as?
14:35:17 <ais523> I'd love an INTERCAL compiler that somehow manages to find a legit reason to return 42, or something
14:35:21 * ehird scurries to find out what ignorret is <_<
14:35:49 <ais523> wow, the first Google hit is acutally relevant
14:35:56 <ehird> yes, but useless
14:36:03 <ais523> and none of the others are relevant
14:36:09 <ais523> basically, ignorret's a simple INTERCAL test program
14:36:12 * ehird downloads ick
14:36:17 <ais523> that manages to give a different result on each of the main implementatinos
14:36:20 <ais523> *implementations
14:36:20 <ehird> ah
14:36:30 <ehird> where is it?
14:36:40 <ais523> pit/tests/ignorret.i
14:36:50 <ais523> see, the first google result /wasn't/ entirely useless
14:36:56 <ehird> :P
14:37:20 <ehird> ais523: I stare at blank incomprehension at ignorret.{i,doc}. I'm gonna have a hard time, aren't I?
14:37:31 <ais523> yes
14:38:16 <ais523> that particular interaction was never defined in INTERCAL-72
14:38:24 <ais523> so reading the docs won't help either
14:38:29 <ehird> Heck, I'd be happy to understand the individual parts.
14:38:34 <ais523> presumably, this is why all the major interps ended up returning different answers
14:38:49 <ais523> anyway, the first line should be pretty self-explanatory
14:38:58 <ais523> as should the third, and the sixth
14:39:01 <ehird> Yes, if I knew what IGNORE and RETRIEVE were.
14:39:11 <ehird> STASH is that weird stack thing, right?
14:39:12 <ais523> IGNORE makes a variable read-only
14:39:22 <ais523> as in, writes to it silently fail
14:39:33 <ais523> STASH and RETRIEVE push and pop a variable on its own stack
14:39:42 <ais523> each variable has a stash stack, STASH pushes it and RETRIEVE pops it
14:40:03 <ais523> the point of contention is what happens to the read-only status when the stack of the variable it refers to is pushed or popped
14:40:04 <ehird> okay, so what is .1 after DO STASH .1?
14:40:10 <ais523> it's a variable name
14:40:16 <ehird> what is its value, I mean
14:40:39 <ais523> 1
14:40:46 <ehird> ah, wait
14:40:47 <ehird> ais523: so
14:40:48 <ais523> STASH doesn't modify a variable's value
14:40:53 <ehird> .1 = {1}, stack = {}
14:40:54 <ehird> .1 = {1}, stack = {1}
14:40:55 <ehird> then
14:40:58 <ehird> if you write 2 to .1
14:41:01 <ehird> .1 = {2}, stack = {1}
14:41:03 <ehird> then retrieve
14:41:04 <ais523> yes
14:41:05 <ehird> .1 = {1}, stack = {}
14:41:13 <ehird> right, that's simple enough
14:41:16 <ais523> yep
14:41:19 <ais523> except there's an ignore line
14:41:25 <ehird> yes, I'll get to that
14:41:26 <ehird> DO .1 <- #1
14:41:27 <ehird> DO STASH .1
14:41:28 <ehird> DO .1 <- #2
14:41:30 <ehird> .1 = {2}, {1}
14:41:34 <ehird> I assume that's uncontroversial
14:41:36 <ais523> yep
14:42:07 <ehird> ais523: okay, and retrieve boils down to "DO .N <- popped value"
14:42:12 <ais523> yes
14:42:15 <ehird> so, the retrieve after the ignore,
14:42:23 <ehird> makes .1 = {2}, {}
14:42:31 <ais523> because .1 is read-only?
14:42:35 <ais523> that's the J-INTERCAL interpretation
14:42:35 <ehird> exactly
14:42:41 <ehird> then, it's still ignored, so writing #3 to .1 does nothing
14:42:47 <ais523> yep
14:42:55 <ehird> so the output is 2, 2, 2
14:43:02 <ais523> well, just 2,2
14:43:08 <ais523> there's only two READ OUT statements there
14:43:10 <ehird> oh, right
14:43:19 <ais523> the CLC-INTERCAL interpretation is this:
14:43:25 <ehird> actually
14:43:25 <ehird> ais523:
14:43:29 <ehird> that'/s the C-INTERCAL interpretation
14:43:32 <ehird> from .doc
14:43:46 <ais523> oh, yes
14:43:49 <ais523> sorry
14:43:51 <ais523> misremembered
14:43:57 <ehird> The
14:43:57 <ehird> ignorance status is stashed along with the variable itself
14:43:58 <ehird> hmm
14:44:06 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL stashes metadata
14:44:09 <ehird> ais523: does the standard say STASH stashes a variable or the variable's value?
14:44:19 <ehird> if it says value, mine's right, if it says something more encompassing, CLC-INTERCAL is right
14:44:41 <ais523> "The values are left intact, and copies thereof are saved for later retrieval by (what else?) the RETRIEVE statement (see section 4.4.6)."
14:44:51 <ehird> ok, it's values
14:44:58 <ehird> I'd say CLC-INTERCAL is objectively wrong there, then
14:45:04 <ehird> since the metadata is absolutely not part of the value
14:45:16 <ais523> well, INTERCAL evolves over time
14:45:24 <ais523> I'd say CLC-INTERCAL's interpretation is an extension
14:45:25 <ehird> true
14:45:27 <ais523> that makes STASH more useful
14:45:33 <ehird> yes, that's the thing
14:45:33 <ais523> J-INTERCAL's behaviour is probably just wrong
14:45:41 <ehird> J-INTERCAL sucks, as far as I can tell
14:45:52 <ais523> J-INTERCAL isn't as advanced as either of the others
14:46:48 <ehird> anyway, I was imagining ignorret would be some highly-gnarly evil program
14:46:56 <ehird> :P
14:47:02 <ais523> nope, the simple ones are more fun
14:47:08 <ais523> it's even portable to different bases
14:47:12 <ehird> ha
14:49:14 <ehird> ais523: anyway, I'd probably go with CLC-INTERCAL in practic
14:49:14 <ehird> e
14:49:17 <ehird> since it'd be more useful
14:49:22 <ehird> although...
14:49:26 <ais523> well, CLC-INTERCAL has a lot more metadata to stash
14:49:28 <ehird> ais523: does IGNORE make the variable or the variable's value immutable?
14:49:45 <ais523> C-INTERCAL's solution is to stash all the metadata that CLC-INTERCAL invented, but not metadata invented elsewhere
14:49:54 <ais523> ehird: there's no difference in standard INTERCAL-72
14:50:05 <ehird> there is, the stash stack :P
14:50:06 <ehird> but I mean
14:50:08 <ais523> "The statement DO IGNORE list causes all subsequent statements to have no effect upon variables and/or arrays named in list"
14:50:14 <ehird> ok, well
14:50:22 <ehird> having an effect on the stash stack counts as an effect on variables
14:50:31 <ehird> so, the RETRRIEVEs do nothing
14:50:34 <ehird> in strict intercal-72
14:50:35 <ais523> actually, it wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility that it would be impossible to STASH or RETRIEVE an ignored variable
14:50:42 <ehird> yes
14:50:47 <ehird> that's the literal reading of IGNORE
14:51:07 <ehird> ais523: funnily the output would be 2, 2
14:51:09 <ehird> just like C-INTERCAL
14:51:21 <ehird> maybe ignorret should be updated to handle that possibility...?
14:52:11 <ais523> it will be now you've brought that up
14:52:38 <ais523> it'll make the program slightly more complicated, but may as well test the interactions
14:53:01 <ais523> anyway, people are always making new observations about the INTERCAL standard
14:53:16 <ais523> I know that sorear, when he was writing the vim syntax highlight file for INTERCAL, concluded that whitespace was allowed inside keywords
14:53:34 <ais523> although I'm not sure on what basis, and all implementations I know of ban whitespace in that particular location
14:53:35 <ehird> ha
14:54:03 <ehird> i've been thinking about unhelpful helpers
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14:54:14 <ehird> syntactic sugar and the like that looks really useful, but works in such a horrid way that it's hell to use
14:54:33 <ais523> Release 0.27 (by Alex Smith) 22 Dec 2007 | 1. Joris Huizer pointed out that the manual nowhere says that a GIVE UP line can't be abstained from by line number.
14:54:35 <ehird> for example, a string literal syntax that packs N 9-bit characters per array element, where N is the successive elements of the fibonacci sequence
14:54:43 <ais523> it only took 35 years to catch that particular weirdness of the spec
14:54:46 <ais523> I'm sure that ther are others
14:54:47 <ehird> heh
14:55:06 <ais523> C-INTERCAL corrects for that now, AFAIR the other impls didn't bother
14:55:06 <ehird> ais523: thoughts about that string literal syntax? hmm, maybe even make how it's packed depend on the string content...
14:55:28 <ais523> the obvious thing to do is have a start-string marker but no end-string marker
14:55:33 <ais523> and end the string at the next thing that looks like a statement
14:55:47 <ais523> surprisingly, CLC-INTERCAL would parse that just fine, C-INTERCAL might have more trouble
14:56:58 <ais523> it would certainly be an interesting fix to the escaping problem
14:59:07 <ehird> heh
14:59:54 <ais523> and the start-string marker would presumably be a keyword
14:59:56 <ais523> rather than punctuation
15:00:01 <ehird> ais523: why not overload "?
15:00:04 * ehird cackles
15:00:19 <ais523> that would depend on the syntax
15:00:23 <ehird> not alternating "/' either, " is always the one overloaded
15:08:38 <ehird> ais523: do you think CLWNPA is a good name? (Pronounced "interrcall", with a short a).
15:08:45 -!- Asztal has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
15:08:46 <ais523> yes, I do
15:08:59 -!- Asztal has joined.
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15:23:52 <ehird> "The Clang project is an effort to build a set of new 'LLVM native' front-end technologies for the LLVM optimizer and code generator. While Clang is not included in the LLVM 2.5 release, it is continuing to make major strides forward in all areas. Its C and Objective-C parsing and code generation support is now very solid. For example, it is capable of successfully building many real-world applications for X86-32 and X86-64, including the FreeBSD kernel
15:23:54 <ehird> and gcc 4.2."
15:23:56 <ehird> AnMaster: maybe clang _is_ ready.
15:24:07 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
15:24:16 <AnMaster> I looked at the status page for it recently
15:24:16 <ehird> well, to a degree
15:24:28 <ehird> compiling gcc is an impressive achivement
15:24:34 <AnMaster> ehird, it can handle most of C but not very much C++ yet
15:24:42 <AnMaster> ehird, without or without bootstrapping?
15:24:53 <ehird> AnMaster: 1. does that matter for C programs? 2. not sure
15:25:09 <AnMaster> ehird, no it doesn't matter for C programs. But their goal is C++
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15:25:26 <ehird> True. But you said that clang wasn't ready for C
15:25:39 <AnMaster> when?
15:25:40 <ehird> Maybe I'll try clang for the next thing I write in C
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15:25:50 <AnMaster> ehird, also I said it was almost ready iirc
15:26:04 <AnMaster> since last I tested it (1-2 months ago) it could almost handle cfunge
15:26:06 <ehird> AnMaster: yesterday or so, you said clang wasn't ready when I mentioned it
15:26:09 <AnMaster> just one thing it failed at
15:26:13 <ehird> what?
15:26:22 <AnMaster> hm?
15:26:28 <AnMaster> oh you mean what it failed at?
15:26:34 <ehird> yes
15:26:38 <AnMaster> right. stuff like:
15:26:50 <AnMaster> static struct mystruct foo = { .a = blah }
15:26:54 <AnMaster> C99
15:27:05 <AnMaster> that is, the ".a = " bit is C99
15:27:17 <AnMaster> but maybe it can handle that now
15:27:25 <AnMaster> I don't know
15:27:38 <AnMaster> bbiab
15:27:40 <AnMaster> (food)
15:27:41 <ehird> ah
15:27:44 <ehird> well that's rather trivial
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15:33:09 <impomatic> Hi :-)
15:33:31 <ehird> hi
15:33:33 <oklopol> hi
15:33:44 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc some developer said it wasn't _that_ trivial back then
15:34:12 <oklopol> couldn't you just translate it in the other initialization syntax and use the existing system
15:34:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, you would need to fill in values in some places
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15:35:22 <AnMaster> what is struct mystruct is: { char z[32]; int a; void *b; struct anotherstruct c; union blergh whatever; }
15:35:24 <oklopol> that's a trivial problem
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15:36:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, also using this special syntax is the only way you can initialise anything but the first member of an union like that
15:36:21 <AnMaster> sure you could do myunion.foo = 2; or such in code
15:36:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, so you can't always translate
15:36:35 <AnMaster> especially not for unions
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15:37:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, so I'd say it is "simple" rather than "trivial"
15:37:17 <AnMaster> to add support
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15:37:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, IWC
15:37:31 <AnMaster> err
15:37:33 <AnMaster> I mean
15:37:34 <AnMaster> hi!
15:37:36 <oklopol> well yes, that may be true.
15:37:41 <oerjan> fnord
15:37:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, dronf
15:38:08 <AnMaster> that is a float version of the math.h dron() I guess...
15:40:18 <oerjan> determine random obnoxious number
15:41:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah
15:41:18 <ehird> hey, didn't psygnisfive say he goes to stony brook university?
15:41:58 <AnMaster> ehird, think it was him yes
15:42:00 <AnMaster> not 100% sure
15:42:30 <ehird> cool, just noticed slava akhmechet (of defmacro.org) does too
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15:48:14 <ais523> wb me
15:48:14 <oerjan> hi ais523
15:48:19 <ais523> hi oerjan
15:53:23 <oerjan> <kerlo> My method: Note that 4x^2 + 9y^2 = 36 is actually a circle. Do the obvious. Note that it's an ellipse instead.
15:53:27 <oerjan> erm...
15:53:32 <oerjan> i don't think so
15:53:48 <ais523> 4x^2 + 9y^2 = 36 is an ellipse
15:54:01 <oerjan> it's not a circle
15:54:29 <ais523> I think kerlo's method is to make an incorrect assumpsion, see where it breaks down, and find out what the correct alternative is instead
15:54:55 <oerjan> although it _would_ still work by rescaling if you can show that the largest rectangle inscribed in an ellipse is necessary parallel to the axes
15:55:10 <oerjan> which it probably is
15:55:58 <oerjan> in fact if this is an ordinary calculus test they're probably assuming that's obvious
15:56:13 <ehird> ais523: can you provide some rhyme/reason to this WTF: http://pastie.org/404648.txt?key=kjkf82sgtymwyt44eapphq
15:56:17 <oerjan> (or geometry)
15:56:57 <AnMaster> ais523, I already did it, by testing on gcc 4.1.2 and not seeing that behaviour that ehird just described. Thus implying a bug. But why I wonder...
15:57:30 <ehird> I tracked down a bug that I thought was in a package to this... Crazy... I can't believe this is common to all OS X gcc users...
15:58:02 <oerjan> An omg.c was compiled // in two slightly different ways // the result was eerily wild // But just don't ask me what it says
15:58:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well most programs don't use cpp directly. They just call cc
15:58:37 <AnMaster> only program using cpp directly I can think of atm is ick
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15:59:24 <oerjan> ehird: rhyme enough for you?
15:59:32 <ehird> AnMaster: ocaml
15:59:35 <ehird> using cpp preprocessor
15:59:51 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. That makes it two that I can think of
15:59:56 <AnMaster> btw why does ocaml do that?
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16:00:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what did you miss?
16:00:25 <AnMaster> the question? and/or my comment to it?
16:00:27 <oerjan> *sigh* no respect for poetry even when they are _asking_ for it :(
16:00:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah, horrible isn't it
16:01:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, what meter did that poetry use?
16:01:10 <AnMaster> if any
16:01:10 <ais523> AnMaster: both
16:01:10 <ais523> also, what did oerjan say?
16:01:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: can you provide some rhyme/reason to this WTF: http://pastie.org/404648.txt?key=kjkf82sgtymwyt44eapphq
16:01:18 <ais523> actually, I'll logread it, I haven't done that in a while
16:01:19 <oerjan> no idea what it's called
16:01:19 <ehird> AnMaster: the package used ocaml
16:01:20 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, I already did it, by testing on gcc 4.1.2 and not seeing that behaviour that ehird just described. Thus implying a bug. But why I wonder...
16:01:21 <ehird> err
16:01:23 <AnMaster> <oerjan> An omg.c was compiled // in two slightly different ways // the result was eerily wild // But just don't ask me what it says
16:01:24 <ehird> ocaml lets you specify a preprocessor
16:01:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I saw that
16:01:32 <ehird> for... preprocessing
16:01:36 <ehird> and this package used cpp for tha
16:01:36 <ehird> t
16:01:40 <AnMaster> ais523, you didn't answer ehird's question
16:01:46 <AnMaster> as far as we saw
16:01:52 <ais523> yes I did, presumably the reply was never sent
16:02:00 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> as far as we saw
16:02:03 <AnMaster> <ais523> yes I did, presumably the reply was never sent
16:02:11 <AnMaster> thank you Cpt. Obvious
16:02:13 <ais523> [16:02] <AnMaster> <AnMaster> as far as we saw
16:02:13 <oerjan> the . is supposed to be silent, btw
16:02:14 <ais523> [16:02] <AnMaster> <ais523> yes I did, presumably the reply was never sent
16:02:27 <ehird> ais523: I didn't see the answer?
16:02:27 <AnMaster> ais523, here it was over 6 second difference...
16:03:43 <oerjan> <ehird> "The main contender, ReiserFS, dropped out of the race because its creator decided to pursue other interests"
16:03:47 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
16:04:07 <oerjan> never gets old, that
16:04:11 <oerjan> then neither did his wife
16:04:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, when is that quote from?
16:04:59 <oerjan> 15:10:52 yesterday
16:05:02 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/relational.html I believe I linked it
16:05:09 <oerjan> (clog time)
16:05:14 <AnMaster> hm
16:05:19 <AnMaster> and what was ehird quoting?
16:05:22 <ehird> http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/relational.html
16:05:39 <AnMaster> ah
16:06:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah when != what. So first time you said it, it wasn't a relevant answer ;P
16:06:22 <AnMaster> err s/what/where/
16:06:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: where must you be so picky about interrogative pronouns?
16:07:25 -!- ais523_ has joined.
16:07:42 <ehird> wb
16:07:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:07:48 <ais523_> argh, it still didn't show up
16:08:05 <ehird> ais523_: any ideas?
16:08:28 <ais523_> ehird: your results don't happen on my machine either, so it's probably a glitch specific to your version of gcc
16:08:32 <oerjan> <oklopol> well, i failed my first exam
16:08:33 <ais523_> SPL #0, <-1
16:08:36 <oerjan> *GASP*
16:08:40 <ais523_> ah, finally
16:08:43 <oerjan> group hug!
16:08:50 <ais523_> I was trying to prevent impomatic's quit message overwriting the lgos
16:08:52 <ehird> ais523_: but it's -apple-distributed-. surely they would have done some BASIC TESTS?!
16:08:52 <ais523_> *logs
16:09:02 <ais523_> ehird: that's kind-of obscure, rather than a basic test
16:09:05 <ehird> oerjan: he got 75%
16:09:09 <ais523_> besides, apple-distributed programs have been known to screw up
16:09:09 <ehird> ais523_: ## is not obscure!!
16:09:16 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:09:17 <ehird> ## is insanely common...
16:09:19 <ais523_> ehird: I mean, cpp vs. gcc -E
16:09:26 <ais523_> they probably tested with gcc -E not cpp
16:09:27 <oklopol> i don't know what i got, i just reasoned i couldn't get *more than* 75%.
16:09:28 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
16:09:32 <ehird> retardzz
16:09:35 <ehird> gah
16:09:41 <ehird> but I can't compile tons of programs like this
16:09:44 <ais523> Apple famously messed up the packaging of Perl recently
16:09:47 <ais523> it was on Slashdot
16:09:51 <ehird> ah yes
16:10:08 <oerjan> oklopol: you are aware this may not be the definition of "fail" most human beings use, right?
16:10:10 * ais523 hopes that imp gate was written correctly
16:10:16 <ais523> I don't know redcode all that wel...
16:10:20 <ais523> *well
16:10:34 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, but that's very irrelevant
16:10:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, IWC was weird today. Had to read the forum to understand it
16:10:54 <oklopol> you fail when you need to lower your bar
16:11:09 <ais523> well, my bar's in different places in different subjects
16:11:19 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh i remembered the similar one from when head death _entered_, so i compared them
16:11:22 <ais523> I consider the bare pass mark of 50% excellent in some of my project management modules
16:11:27 <oerjan> and indeed they seem to fit
16:11:32 <oklopol> heh.
16:11:38 <ais523> I got 49% on my last piece of coursework on that, it's averaged with another that I've done but hasn't been marked yet
16:12:23 <oklopol> (i sometimes consider a 5/5 a fail if many ppl get it... but i guess i have to admit *that's* pretty stupid)
16:12:39 <ais523> how can full marks possibly be a fail?
16:12:56 <ais523> actually, I was really annoyed when I got 99% on one technology exam I did at school
16:13:03 <ais523> because I could have got 101% if only I hadn't got two questions wrong
16:13:11 <ehird> give it 110%
16:13:18 <ais523> and apart from in A-levels where it's trivial, scoring above 100 is quite an achivement
16:13:28 <oklopol> ais523: well you know if many people get the best possible grade, i'm not well above average!
16:15:50 <oklopol> i recently had this exam where 10/20 didn't show up, 5 failed, 3 got a 1/5, one got a four and i got a five
16:15:50 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: oh i remembered the similar one from when head death _entered_, so i compared them <-- didn't do that until after I checked forum
16:16:03 <oklopol> and i was like WTF HOW CAN THIS GUY GET JUST ONE LESS THAN ME
16:16:17 <oklopol> and then i called a psychiatrist and was put away
16:16:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, I still don't see where money got into it
16:16:40 <oklopol> head death
16:16:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: i haven't checked the forum, i have changed to only checking it every few days, it's faster if i do it in more bulk
16:17:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> because I could have got 101% if only I hadn't got two questions wrong <-- wait. How many % is all of it...
16:17:31 <ehird> AnMaster: it's for "bonus questions"
16:17:33 <ehird> i.e.
16:17:34 <AnMaster> ah
16:17:35 <AnMaster> still
16:17:37 <ais523> AnMaster: 100, but I got a bonus mark on one of the questions
16:17:40 <ehird> "Blah blah blah. For bonus marks, tell us why green is purple."
16:17:54 <AnMaster> ehird, is green purple?
16:17:59 <ais523> there wasn't an explicit bonus question there, but the teacher was so impressed with my answer to one of the questions that I got a bonus mark anyway
16:17:59 <ehird> yes.
16:18:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh well head death asks what he owes doesn't he
16:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird, why?
16:18:13 <ehird> don't question your elders.
16:18:23 <AnMaster> ehird, err. you are younger than me
16:18:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah hm true
16:18:49 <ehird> DON'T QUESTION YOUR ELDERS.
16:18:58 <AnMaster> ais523, and how did you manage to impress the teacher like that?
16:19:09 <ais523> I can't remember, it was ages ago
16:19:11 <ehird> by writing a good answer?
16:19:13 <ehird> JUST THEORIZIN'
16:19:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well duh...
16:19:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: by being smarter than the teacher, i guess
16:20:00 <AnMaster> ehird, when I answer like that to a question that _you_ asked then you get irritated. Same when I _ask_ such as question.
16:20:05 <AnMaster> ehird, that makes no sense
16:20:06 <oerjan> and also having a teacher who doesn't mind students who are smarter
16:20:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't question your elders.
16:20:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you must be based on the gramophone technology.
16:21:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: maybe that webchatter or whatever technology he mentioned yesterday
16:22:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think I missed that. What was it about? Don't have X running atm. So like ais523 I just ask instead of looking at clog
16:22:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: i do suspect a number of the times ehird complains about you, he just does it for the hell of it
16:22:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, ooh. That would make sense in fact.
16:22:50 <ehird> oerjan: DON'T SUSPECT YOUR ELDERS
16:22:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you must be based on the gramophone technology.
16:23:12 <oerjan> ehird: you are not my elder
16:23:19 <ehird> SHUT UP.
16:23:20 <ehird> YOUR ELDERS.
16:23:31 <oklopol> WE ARE THE WARRIORS
16:23:32 <AnMaster> yes. gramophone
16:23:36 <AnMaster> stuck, repeating the same line over and over.
16:23:49 <AnMaster> ehird, that's no Elder...
16:25:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: it was some insane thing on reddit, a program that could be used for various support to talk to people on the web with scripting, but used in such a stupid way that it looked like there _was_ no human on the support end
16:26:19 <ehird> oerjan: actually, the people started acting human after that article, apparently
16:26:24 <ehird> (complaining about reddit influx)
16:26:43 <oerjan> ehird: reddit, the nuclear cluehammer :D
16:28:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, err...
16:28:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, link?
16:29:12 * ais523 detonates a well-sharpened pencil at oerjan
16:29:15 * AnMaster is willing to start browser to check this out
16:30:01 <ehird> ais523: RIP well-sharpened pencils :(
16:30:03 <ehird> AnMaster: you need java
16:30:16 <ehird> http://www.webgreeter.com/
16:30:39 <ais523> if that turns out to have been an AI all along...
16:30:47 <ehird> heh
16:30:49 <ehird> be very afraid
16:31:08 <AnMaster> I do have java... Just not in browser
16:31:17 <oerjan> oh dear you mean reddit has trained skynet?
16:31:19 <AnMaster> java for linux x86_64 doesn't have a plugin part
16:31:37 <oerjan> that would be nuclear cluehammer in the other direction, i guess
16:31:38 <AnMaster> only the standalone java/javac/and/such
16:41:45 <oerjan> <fizzie> See, you have a budding career as an ehird-amuser there.
16:41:59 <oerjan> wait what, i don't like competition
16:42:04 <ehird> :D
16:42:44 <ais523> ehird: :D at your :D
16:42:52 <ais523> you managed to make a meta-joke with one smiley, that's pretty impressive
16:42:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, who was that line directed at?
16:43:09 <oerjan> oklopol
16:43:41 <oklopol> oerjan
16:43:48 <oerjan> oklopol
16:43:53 <oklopol> oerjan
16:43:57 <oerjan> oklopol
16:43:59 <oklopol> oerjan
16:44:03 <oerjan> oklopol
16:44:04 <oklopol> oerjan
16:44:06 <oerjan> oklopol
16:44:08 <oklopol> oerjan
16:44:09 <AnMaster> ...
16:44:16 <ais523> wow, it's like a botloop
16:44:22 <ais523> but with humans
16:44:28 <Mony> xD
16:44:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought that too
16:44:38 <oerjan> well some of them are suspected to be human
16:44:39 <oklopol> ^ luckily oerjan got tired
16:44:49 <oerjan> oklopol: no, AnMaster just broke it
16:45:00 <oklopol> hmm
16:45:02 <oklopol> i guess.
16:45:02 <oerjan> which is just as well, before we got banned
16:45:17 <oklopol> yes probably for the best that you lost so abruptly
16:45:21 <AnMaster> so who was it really?
16:45:24 <AnMaster> now tell the truth
16:45:31 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
16:45:31 <AnMaster> I don't think it was oerjan
16:45:37 <oklopol> the truth is nothing but a lie wrapped in a pretty cake
16:45:40 <AnMaster> <oerjan> <fizzie> See, you have a budding career as an ehird-amuser there.
16:45:41 <AnMaster> <oerjan> wait what, i don't like competition
16:45:55 <AnMaster> if it was oerjan that reply would be very strange
16:46:05 <oerjan> i have told the truth all the time, i have never lied in my life
16:46:19 <AnMaster> really?
16:46:24 <oklopol> it's funny because it's a lie!
16:46:26 <ehird> no, that's a-
16:46:28 <ehird> :|
16:46:38 <oerjan> surreally, perhaps
16:49:42 <oerjan> <oklopol> no one gets swedish
16:49:52 <oerjan> inte en själ!
16:50:05 <ais523> I have lied at least once
16:50:11 <ais523> but I have also told the truth at least once
16:50:16 <ehird> 16:50 ais523: I have lied at least once
16:50:20 <ehird> that would be the lie, I presume
16:50:31 <ais523> I'll leave you wondering
16:50:38 <oerjan> i have done at least one of those
16:51:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, verkligen?
16:52:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: stop your incomprehensible babbling!
16:52:21 <AnMaster> ais523, then you should guard a door. ;P
16:52:37 <ais523> AnMaster: given what the doors around here are like, I'd better not
16:52:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I wasn't making a reference to that
16:52:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: he can be the one who stabs people who ask complicated questions. </xkcd>
16:53:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, nah, I think he is too nice for that
16:53:32 <oerjan> maybe, maybe
16:53:33 <ais523> the trick to solving that particular XKCD problem is to have a question that solves the problem but doesn't sound complicated
16:53:43 <oerjan> or he could have put on that appearance
16:53:47 <FireFly> [17:49:55] <oerjan> inte en själ!
16:53:48 <ais523> "What would you say if I asked you if this door lead to freedom?" is my attempt
16:53:55 <FireFly> That looks so strange in an english channel :<
16:54:00 <ehird> ais523: tricky
16:54:02 <ehird> not complicated
16:54:09 <oerjan> ais523: except the xkcd also mentioned none of the doors actually lead out
16:54:12 <ais523> is that a tricky question?
16:54:14 <ais523> ah, and ok
16:54:24 <ais523> actually, based on the drawing, the doors seem to lead /in/
16:54:35 <ais523> also, with three doors, no way you can determine all the information with a yes-or-no question
16:55:43 <ehird> http://cairnarvon.rotahall.org/pics/lslw.jpg
16:55:52 <AnMaster> FireFly, ja det gör det. Men han talar norska
16:56:07 <AnMaster> ändå är det begripligt
16:56:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: um gör jag vel inte
16:56:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, jo, inte svensk skulle stava det "vel"
16:57:03 <FireFly> Good enough
16:57:06 <oerjan> ok i write swedish as botched by a norwegian
16:57:06 <AnMaster> ingen*
16:57:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed
16:57:14 <FireFly> Bättre än jag kan norska
16:57:16 <FireFly> Ehm
16:57:18 <AnMaster> FireFly, same
16:57:29 <FireFly> Betre en jeg kan norsk
16:57:32 <FireFly> :
16:57:33 <FireFly> <
16:57:39 <oerjan> "Bedre enn"
16:58:41 <oerjan> so, maybe :D
16:58:46 <AnMaster> FireFly, och det var bättre än mig
16:59:25 <FireFly> :>
16:59:30 <FireFly> Good enough for me
16:59:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: um wait was this an attempt at norwegian? <AnMaster> oerjan, jo, inte svensk skulle stava det "vel"
17:00:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, no, it was just a typo
17:00:13 <oerjan> oh ok
17:00:14 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCuc34hvD4
17:00:15 <AnMaster> for "ingen"
17:00:50 <oerjan> because most of the words are identical
17:01:01 <FireFly> Norwegian is just typoed swedish :>
17:01:01 <oerjan> especially after fixing the typo
17:01:17 <FireFly> Okay, maybe not
17:01:53 <AnMaster> FireFly, Depends. Nynorsk is not as close
17:02:25 <oerjan> actually it is not quite correct _choice_ of words
17:02:45 <oerjan> 'jo, ingen svenske ville stave det "vel"'
17:03:28 <FireFly> "ville" is more like the english "will"?
17:03:36 <FireFly> Which would be like swedish "skulle"
17:03:40 <ehird> so ais523
17:03:42 <oerjan> which is also correct nynorsk, which can be even closer by choosing the -a infinitive option
17:03:53 <ehird> what do you think I should do, replace cpp with a shell script aclling gcc -E?
17:04:05 <oerjan> FireFly: english "would"
17:04:14 <FireFly> Um, yeah
17:04:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, then skulle in Swedish
17:04:38 <AnMaster> in that case
17:10:03 <ehird> i wonder why i liek the otbs
17:10:06 <ehird> *like
17:10:09 <ehird> it's not exactly logical...
17:10:32 <ais523> what is the otbs?
17:10:40 <ehird> one true brace style (k&r)
17:10:56 <ais523> ah
17:11:10 <ehird> having { on a separate line just for functions is rather silly
17:11:11 <ais523> if you'd written 1tbs, I might have been able to expand it, probably not though
17:11:36 <ais523> at the moment, for Perl I'm using a 1tbs with { on the opening line for absolutely everything
17:11:41 <ais523> not sure if I like it or not
17:12:12 <AnMaster> 1tbs?
17:12:27 <AnMaster> oh 1 not l
17:12:29 <AnMaster> right
17:12:45 <AnMaster> (they are different in this font, just not by much)
17:20:26 <oerjan> <ehird> ais523: do you think CLWNPA is a good name? (Pronounced "interrcall", with a short a).
17:20:52 <oerjan> it should make the welsh scratch their heads, at least
17:25:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh
17:35:03 <AnMaster> C function pointer syntax is crazy IMO
17:35:09 <ais523> I like it
17:35:19 <ais523> it follows the general rules for C type syntax very well
17:36:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I tend to typedef to not need to think about it
17:36:39 <AnMaster> and in typedef it is really strange
17:37:16 <AnMaster> typedef void (*fingerprintOpcode)(instructionPointer * ip);
17:37:20 <AnMaster> really that is strange
17:37:24 <AnMaster> typedef is usually:
17:37:38 <AnMaster> typedef long int fancyname
17:37:40 <AnMaster> or such
17:37:55 <AnMaster> ais523, for function pointers that is no longer true
17:38:07 <AnMaster> I mean tyedef <expansion> <name>
17:38:12 <AnMaster> typedef*
17:45:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:49:52 <ais523> Do you consider it acceptible to press F3 if you don't have a suicide spoon handy, or is that cheating?
17:51:31 <ehird> hmm, you can make any vector image from lines & curves right?
17:51:40 <ais523> what about fill?
17:52:13 <ehird> ah, yes
17:52:23 <ehird> you can make any vector image from lines, curves & fill right?
17:52:42 <ais523> probably
17:52:49 <ais523> I suppose it depends on what primitives the image uses
17:52:54 <ais523> "curves" is pretty general...
17:53:14 <ehird> true
17:53:26 <ehird> ais523: I was planning having an image be from (0.0,0.0) to (1.0,1.0)
17:53:41 <ehird> a curve would be (x1,y1,x2,y1,bend)
17:53:45 <ehird> where bend is from 0.0 to 1.0
17:53:46 <ehird> probably
17:53:54 <ehird> hmm
17:53:57 <ehird> a line is a curve with bend 0
17:54:49 <FireFly> A cruve is in this case a bezier curve?
17:55:40 <FireFly> [18:52:26] <ehird> you can make any vector image from lines, curves & fill right?
17:55:43 <FireFly> I guess that'd work
17:55:49 <FireFly> Judging from how SVGs are built
17:56:16 <ehird> yes, bezier
17:59:26 <ehird> so, with those, a circle is
17:59:27 <ehird> ((0.5, 0), (0.5, 1), -0.5);
17:59:28 <ehird> ((0.5, 0), (0.5, 1), 0.5)
17:59:29 <ehird> I believe
18:00:13 <ais523> I don't think it's possible to do a sine wave with only bezier curves
18:00:21 <ais523> not exactly right, anyway, although you can approximate it as closely as you like
18:00:29 <ehird> hmm
18:00:30 <ehird> why not?
18:00:47 <ais523> because it's a different shape of curve
18:01:38 <ehird> hmm
18:01:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
18:01:44 <ehird> maybe I should use a different type of curve
18:01:53 <FireFly> Hm
18:02:18 <FireFly> I've tried to make a circle lots of times with Bezier based curves
18:02:23 <FireFly> And I've had a hard time
18:02:47 <ehird> well, with mine it would be
18:02:47 <ais523> or a graph of Ei, for instance, definitely can't be drawn with bezier curves
18:02:48 <ehird> [((0.5, 0), (0.5, 1), 0.5);
18:02:48 <ehird> ((0.5, 0), (0.5, 1), -0.5)]
18:02:53 <FireFly> By my experience, IIRC, the "anchor" points which describes the bend are placed at odd laces
18:02:59 <FireFly> places*
18:03:15 <ehird> you draw the straight line in the middle from top to bottom, then curve it so that the middlepoint is <curve> away from the starting point
18:03:20 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_integral
18:03:24 <ehird> hmm, the curve should be two curves
18:03:30 <ehird> since it can curve horizontally or vertically
18:03:37 <ehird> but, with that you can express a circle as above
18:03:57 -!- ais523 has left (?).
18:04:02 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:04:12 <ais523> how did I do that?
18:04:26 <ais523> misclick, it seems
18:10:13 -!- olsner has joined.
18:14:31 <ehird> http://www.scribd.com/doc/12927007/The-Manga-Guide-to-Databases-excerpt
18:14:38 <ehird> oh dear... it actually exists...
18:15:04 <lament> hahaha
18:15:04 <ais523> did you actually go looking for one of those?
18:15:18 <ehird> no, it was on reddit and now an excerpt of it is on reddit
18:15:20 <lament> if it's not hentai i'm not interested
18:16:10 <oklopol> yes it's database hentai
18:16:39 <ehird> the tentacles of denormalization
18:20:59 <ehird> http://www.sfcave.com/ addictive
18:22:44 <AnMaster> <FireFly> [18:52:26] <ehird> you can make any vector image from lines, curves & fill right? <-- what about gradients?
18:23:02 <ehird> err, I'm talking about the theoretical definition of vector image.
18:24:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.scribd.com/doc/12927007/The-Manga-Guide-to-Databases-excerpt <-- needs flash, summary?
18:24:44 <ehird> it's the manga guide to databases.
18:24:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but what does that mean in practise?
18:25:08 <ehird> it's a guide to databases that is a manage
18:25:10 <ehird> *manga
18:25:19 <AnMaster> ah there is a description there too...
18:25:34 <AnMaster> thank for your (lack) of helpfulness
18:25:38 <AnMaster> thanks*
18:25:57 <ehird> what the fuck is there not to get?
18:26:04 <ehird> it's the manga guide to databases
18:26:09 <ehird> where's the ambiguity?
18:26:45 <AnMaster> it could have been a space theme, or fantasy theme, or sex theme
18:26:57 <AnMaster> or something else
18:26:58 <ehird> .... err, what
18:27:21 <AnMaster> manga can be about different subjects right?
18:27:25 <AnMaster> Like everything can
18:27:40 <AnMaster> you can have comics with scifi.
18:27:48 <AnMaster> and you can have comics with fantasy
18:27:49 <oklopol> ehird: so how much have you gotten?
18:27:51 <AnMaster> and you can have comics with other stuff
18:27:54 <ehird> oklopol: wut
18:27:59 <oklopol> snake
18:28:06 <ehird> oh high score on that thing?
18:28:09 <oklopol> yes
18:28:09 <ehird> 10150 i am not very good
18:28:10 <ehird> you?
18:28:20 <oklopol> 17000 or something, just making sure
18:28:39 <oklopol> although i like the graphics, will probably play a bit more
18:28:55 <oklopol> even though i don't really find that a very stimulating concept
18:29:19 <ais523> Nibbles is my favourite version of Snake
18:29:29 <ais523> I liked it so much I even wrote patches against it and submitted them to Gnome
18:30:23 <AnMaster> my phone as a 3D TPS (Third Person Snake)
18:30:29 <AnMaster> it's horrible
18:30:43 <ehird> third person snake, you mean, snake
18:30:45 <ais523> 3D snake?
18:30:46 <ehird> ?
18:30:49 <ehird> oh
18:30:50 <ehird> right
18:30:57 <ehird> I've played 3d snake, called Swear
18:30:58 <ehird> t'was fun
18:31:07 <AnMaster> not the same one I think then
18:31:07 <ehird> on a klein bottle
18:31:07 <ehird> no less
18:31:18 <FireFly> I've played some odd 3D snake on a Nokia cellphone
18:31:19 <AnMaster> this one is rather boring.
18:31:22 <FireFly> Didn't like it
18:31:25 <FireFly> Hm
18:31:27 <AnMaster> FireFly, Nokia here too
18:31:29 <FireFly> On MY cellphone, IIRC
18:31:34 <AnMaster> this one is called "Snake III"
18:31:36 * FireFly doesn't use his cellphone a lot
18:31:39 <FireFly> Yeah, the same one
18:31:42 <ais523> 1D snake could be more interesting
18:31:58 <FireFly> Althrough on my dads cellphone, theres some wireframe snake, looks more interesting
18:32:00 <AnMaster> ais523, how would it work
18:32:01 <ehird> rather boring, I think, ais523
18:32:04 <FireFly> And it's also a Nokia
18:32:09 <AnMaster> FireFly, older model?
18:32:16 <FireFly> Yep, I think
18:32:24 <FireFly> But it looks about as good, technically wise
18:32:27 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm thinking the snake would move n squares at a time, rather than just 1
18:32:33 <ais523> and you would vary n
18:32:37 <FireFly> Eg. equally advanced graphics
18:32:42 <ehird> ais523: ah, clever
18:32:48 <ehird> so there's obstacles
18:32:53 <ehird> and you have to increase your "hop speed"?
18:32:53 <AnMaster> FireFly, mine is a "Nokia 3something Classic"
18:32:54 <FireFly> Hm, that's interesting
18:32:55 <ehird> to get past them
18:33:04 <ehird> ais523: that would be best as a side-scroller type thing
18:33:06 <ehird> for visualization
18:33:12 <ais523> PUDDING!!!!!
18:33:14 <ehird> with a snake hopping
18:33:15 <ais523> ehird: probably
18:33:23 <FireFly> Side scroller snake
18:33:25 <FireFly> Ugh
18:33:25 <ehird> 18:33 ais523: PUDDING!!!!!
18:33:28 <ehird> I LOVE PUDDING TOO.
18:33:33 <ais523> ehird: it's a TURKEY BOMB command
18:33:42 <ehird> i know
18:33:44 <ehird> but what's the relevance
18:33:49 <AnMaster> FireFly, I forgot the exact model
18:33:52 <AnMaster> FireFly, :D
18:33:53 <ais523> does it have to be relevant?
18:33:55 <FireFly> Mines.. 7500
18:33:57 <FireFly> Prism
18:34:00 <ais523> I was randomly reading the TURKEY BOMB specs
18:34:01 <FireFly> Easy number to remember
18:34:06 <ais523> and felt an urge to paste one of the commands
18:34:41 <AnMaster> FireFly, mine is like 3120 or something like that
18:34:44 * ais523 suddenly notes that no commands use AMICEDs, apart from the ones that take any time
18:34:50 <AnMaster> and it doesn't have the model number on it even
18:35:03 <AnMaster> FireFly, there is also a rally game on the phone. 3D
18:35:09 <AnMaster> very bad graphics
18:35:14 <FireFly> Hm, that one
18:35:20 <FireFly> I think I've played it
18:35:20 <AnMaster> FireFly, what one?
18:35:22 <AnMaster> oh right
18:35:23 <ais523> ehird: about your cpp problem, what happens if you give the -### switch to the two commands/
18:35:28 <FireFly> You auto-move forward, can only steer
18:35:29 <FireFly> Right?
18:35:38 <FireFly> Some beach race thing
18:35:41 <AnMaster> FireFly, you can turn off that auto move forward though
18:35:44 <AnMaster> and not beech
18:35:50 <AnMaster> mountain and such
18:35:51 <FireFly> Hm, guess it's a different one then
18:36:04 <AnMaster> FireFly, not using auto forward is very hard
18:36:21 <AnMaster> but why in a phone
18:36:33 <ehird> ais523: cpp gives -traditional-cpp but surely traditional cpp had ##
18:36:39 <FireFly> Althrough I also have this Tower Bloxx game, it's quite alright
18:36:39 <AnMaster> I use it for calls and SMS
18:36:45 <ais523> ehird: no, it didn't
18:36:45 <AnMaster> FireFly, don't have that one
18:36:48 <FireFly> I don't use mine
18:36:50 <ehird> ais523: O_O
18:36:51 <FireFly> :D
18:37:03 <ais523> ## was invented for C89 to avoid the horrible hacks that people were using instead
18:37:05 <ais523> as was #
18:37:11 <AnMaster> FireFly, have some backgammon game too. No idea how to play it
18:37:24 <AnMaster> backgammon that is
18:37:30 <ais523> traditional cpp #define A(x) "testx" translates to modern CPP #define A(x) "test" #x
18:37:32 <FireFly> Hm, I think I've played a Nokia backgammon game, yeah
18:37:52 <AnMaster> ais523, wow crazy
18:37:54 * ais523 looks at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Esme for old time's sake
18:38:04 <AnMaster> ais523, also cpp doesn't run into that bug ehird hit here
18:38:09 <ais523> and suddenly realises that the discussion there is between Dagoth and zzo38
18:38:11 <ais523> AnMaster: nor here
18:38:18 <ehird> "Esme: It works by tapping out "ESME" into Morse code, then writing "Esme" in to the papers."
18:38:29 <AnMaster> ais523, also -### ?
18:38:38 <ais523> AnMaster: a lovely name for a gcc switch
18:38:42 <ehird> it's basically like:
18:38:43 <ais523> you should try it some time
18:38:44 <ehird> http://fortwayneright.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/dewey_wins.jpg
18:38:49 <ehird> except instead of DEWEY DEFEATS TRUMAN
18:38:50 <ehird> it says
18:38:52 <ehird> ESME ESME ESME
18:38:54 <ais523> I don't know why they chose that one, presumably they just wanted it to be memorable
18:38:54 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't find it in man page
18:39:02 <ais523> AnMaster: gcc's man page isn't well-documented
18:39:09 <ais523> the gcc people prefer info
18:39:17 <ais523> it's a debugging switch that charts what the subprocesses do
18:39:41 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit").
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18:49:55 <ais523> hahaha: http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb/scripts/ShowCode.asp?txtCodeId=11751&lngWId=3
18:50:01 <oklopol> err qut
18:50:03 <oklopol> qut
18:50:04 <ehird> yeah, saw that
18:50:04 <oklopol> *wut
18:50:05 <ais523> "Note: Due to the size or complexity of this submission, the author has submitted it as a .zip file to shorten your download time. Afterdownloading it, you will need a program like Winzip to decompress it."
18:50:12 <ehird> ais523: that's by the actual author of deadfish
18:50:17 <ehird> bit of a newb.
18:50:22 <oklopol> ehird: what am i misunderstanding, i got a 27000 and i'm not on the list
18:50:26 <ais523> I've suddenly had an impulse to want to write a deadfish polyglot
18:50:29 <ehird> oklopol: did you enter a nam
18:50:29 <ehird> e
18:50:41 <ais523> as in, a program that's a deadfish interpreter in lots of different languages
18:50:44 <oklopol> wait i am
18:50:47 <ehird> lol
18:50:47 <oklopol> nm
19:00:15 <ais523> now presumably ehird will try
19:00:23 <ehird> ?
19:00:31 <ais523> to write a polyglot deadfish interp
19:00:44 <ehird> probably not, I suck at polyglots
19:02:27 <AnMaster> ais523, specs for this deadfish?
19:02:34 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish
19:02:38 <ais523> it's a very trivial non-TC language
19:03:55 <AnMaster> yeah indeed
19:04:16 <ais523> mostly famous because it has a huge number of implementations
19:07:25 <AnMaster> ais523, so does bf
19:07:33 <AnMaster> and befunge-93
19:07:43 <ais523> yes
19:07:47 <AnMaster> wow at that C one on the wiki
19:07:50 <ais523> but those are famous on other grounds
19:07:53 <AnMaster> /* <-- Declare a function --> */
19:07:54 <AnMaster> w
19:07:54 <AnMaster> t
19:07:55 <AnMaster> h
19:08:10 <AnMaster> embedded SGML comments..
19:08:15 <AnMaster> wait no
19:08:16 <ehird> not even valid sgml.
19:08:18 <AnMaster> a ! and it would be
19:08:21 <ehird> the author is a silly newb.
19:08:23 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah see how it fails
19:08:23 <ehird> it's mostly for the novelty.
19:09:24 <AnMaster> ehird, what? nah. That would be /* <<<><<<<---!()\/& Declare a function &\/()!--->>>><>>> */
19:09:28 <AnMaster> that is novelty!
19:10:52 <AnMaster> ehird, also an example of a "don't do this" comment
19:11:04 * AnMaster looks for the i++; /* Increment i */
19:12:01 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving").
19:12:33 <AnMaster> /* Make sure x is not greater then 256 */
19:12:33 <AnMaster> if(x == 256) x = 0;
19:12:40 <AnMaster> ...
19:12:46 <ais523> yes, we are aware of the 'bug'
19:12:59 <ais523> other implementations do the same thing for compatibility
19:13:06 <AnMaster> ais523, not only that. He should have used "unsigned char" and 255
19:13:18 <AnMaster> as in that is the same
19:13:39 <AnMaster> ais523, should I write a short C version that does the same but is sane and put it up there after his C version?
19:13:39 <oklopol> what's wrong with that?
19:13:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, read that comment
19:13:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> /* Make sure x is not greater then 256 */
19:13:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> if(x == 256) x = 0;
19:13:52 <oklopol> oh comment.
19:14:01 <ais523> AnMaster: the behaviour on 256 is considered an important part of Deadfish
19:14:04 <oklopol> yeah i don't read comments
19:14:08 <ais523> in other words, the implementation is correct but the comment is wrong
19:14:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes indeed
19:14:46 <AnMaster> ais523, should I put up something following the same implementation in C but that is sane
19:14:48 <AnMaster> yes or no?
19:14:57 <AnMaster> maybe I'll do an erlang version
19:14:59 <AnMaster> as well
19:15:14 <ais523> probably better to just add new languages
19:16:31 <AnMaster> k
19:17:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:19:15 <AnMaster> hm
19:23:03 <ehird> Agh, I ran into GreyKnight -again-
19:24:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what?
19:24:31 <AnMaster> context?
19:24:47 <ehird> guy who was in here circa 2006, ran into him via the logs first, then saw he played Agora in 2006 when browsing archives, and now I see him on wikipedia
19:26:23 <AnMaster> hm ok
19:26:35 <AnMaster> how does Deadfish behave on EOF?
19:26:57 <ehird> what
19:27:27 <AnMaster> simple question
19:27:37 <AnMaster> there is >> for the user
19:27:43 <AnMaster> what if user hits ctrl-d?
19:29:04 <ehird> it exits...
19:30:54 <AnMaster> ehird, ?
19:31:00 <ehird> it exits...
19:31:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't quit or react?
19:31:20 <ehird> do you know what exit means.
19:31:24 <AnMaster> no
19:31:26 <AnMaster> it doesn't
19:31:29 <AnMaster> as far as I can tell
19:31:38 <ehird> "It only exits, not quits!!"
19:31:56 <AnMaster> ehird, looking at the bash implementation for example
19:32:00 <AnMaster> the bash one just echos
19:32:12 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokoko
19:35:48 <AnMaster> another bug
19:35:57 <AnMaster> you could go to 254, then square it
19:36:43 <ehird> that's the intention.
19:37:32 <AnMaster> that bash implementation doesn't allow it heh
19:38:23 <ehird> "# ARM Texas Instruments OMAP3 chip" —http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/
19:42:22 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:44:55 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't mean anything to me
19:55:05 <AnMaster> done.
19:55:08 <AnMaster> deadfish.erl
19:55:22 <AnMaster> MIT or BSD?
19:55:35 <AnMaster> ehird, which would you suggest?
19:55:45 <AnMaster> I think I will go for MIT license
19:55:46 <ehird> MIT
19:55:49 <ehird> or if BSD, BSD2
19:55:58 <ehird> the "don't use our name" thing is redundant and outmoded
19:55:59 <AnMaster> ehird, not BSD-4? aww
19:56:02 <ehird> AnMaster: BSD-5
19:56:07 <AnMaster> what?
19:56:10 <AnMaster> that exists?
19:56:11 <ehird> add a clause requiring modifiers to give all their babies to you, so you can eat them
19:56:15 <ehird> to further your evil plot to destroy the world
19:56:18 <AnMaster> hah
19:56:20 <ehird> -> Sure it's open source, but your code is safe!
19:56:31 <AnMaster> ehird, what about one that says: Plus everything in GPL2?
19:56:40 <ehird> hm?
19:56:46 <ehird> oh
19:56:47 <ehird> heh
19:56:52 <AnMaster> or GPL3
19:56:59 <ehird> AnMaster: add a clause saying that only people called george can modify the softwar
19:57:00 <ehird> e
19:57:08 <AnMaster> why george?
19:57:13 <ehird> why not
19:57:18 <ehird> also don't question your elders
19:57:27 <AnMaster> well you aren't my elder
19:57:35 <ehird> shut up. your elders.
19:57:47 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway what license is allowed on the wiki?
19:58:06 <ehird> Public domain. Nothing else.
19:58:10 <AnMaster> well
19:58:17 <AnMaster> I'll guess I'll have to go for that then
19:58:19 <ehird> Specifically, the creative commons public domain dedication
19:58:29 <ehird> AnMaster: just don't put a header in
19:58:30 <ehird> like the others
19:58:33 <AnMaster> hm
19:58:45 <ehird> e.g., authorship tag would be silly if others modified it
19:59:54 <AnMaster> %% @author and %% @copyright are done in all erlang code really
20:00:00 <AnMaster> %% @doc too
20:00:53 <ehird> who cares
20:00:55 <ehird> just omit them
20:02:58 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
20:03:17 <AnMaster> argh
20:03:42 <ehird> what
20:03:44 <AnMaster> Login error:
20:03:44 <AnMaster> Error sending mail: There is no e-mail address recorded for user "AnMaster".
20:03:49 <AnMaster> I don't remember password
20:03:53 <ehird> ?
20:03:56 <ehird> oh.
20:04:02 <AnMaster> ehird, and there is no email
20:04:03 <AnMaster> so
20:04:09 <ehird> AnMaster: just edit anonymously, will it kill you?
20:04:30 <ehird> or was that disabled, I forget
20:04:48 <AnMaster> hm
20:04:50 <AnMaster> not sure
20:04:54 <AnMaster> anyway who is an admin
20:05:00 <ehird> just edit anonymously
20:05:08 <ehird> and ais523, ihope (iirc), oerjan, everyone
20:05:15 <ehird> yes, anonymous editing works
20:05:17 <ehird> I just checked
20:05:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:05:51 <AnMaster> ehird, http://paste.lisp.org/display/76426
20:06:11 <AnMaster> ehird, did you say everyone?
20:06:12 <AnMaster> who?
20:06:15 <ehird> okay, apparently your brain can't parse me,
20:06:19 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&action=edit
20:06:20 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&action=edit
20:06:23 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&action=edit
20:06:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I refuse
20:06:24 <AnMaster> to edit
20:06:25 <ehird> third time lucky
20:06:26 <AnMaster> anon
20:06:43 <AnMaster> my ip!
20:06:43 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, then your interp will never be used and nobody will see it apart from a few
20:06:46 <ehird> have fun with that
20:06:58 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I'll just poke ais when I see him next time
20:07:11 <ehird> I'm sure he'll enjoy being bothered for something so trivial
20:07:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm sure he won't mind
20:07:48 <ehird> AnMaster: and do you intend to put it on the wiki with that license?
20:08:03 <AnMaster> ehird, nop
20:08:12 <AnMaster> I plan to make it public domain if I put it on wiki
20:08:13 <ehird> so why did you paste it with thatlicense
20:08:21 <ehird> also, yours doesn't meet the spec.
20:08:22 <AnMaster> ehird, because that isn't the wiki
20:08:25 <ehird> you can do multiple commands per line.
20:08:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I checked several other ones
20:08:40 <AnMaster> several didn't support it
20:09:09 <AnMaster> but trivial to fix
20:10:16 <ehird> "You can have several commands per line, at least in the C implementation."
20:10:20 <ehird> If you read it...
20:11:48 <AnMaster> at least in
20:11:48 <AnMaster> yes
20:11:56 <AnMaster> check the implementations there though
20:12:22 <AnMaster> ehird, wait, will it print two newlines after each line then?
20:12:56 <AnMaster> or does it strip a trailing \n?
20:15:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:18:36 <AnMaster> ais523, hi
20:18:40 <ais523> rehi
20:18:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I lost my login to the wiki
20:18:46 <AnMaster> and have no email set
20:18:52 <AnMaster> as a wiki admin can you help?
20:18:55 <ais523> ugh, nothing I can do about that despite being an admin
20:19:01 <AnMaster> ais523, who can then
20:19:03 <ais523> best to create another account
20:19:09 <ais523> graue probably could modify the database directly
20:19:11 <AnMaster> ais523, guess I'll just stop editing
20:19:14 <ais523> but with no email set, there's no "official" way to do it
20:19:23 <ais523> you can just create another account and mention you lost your password, nobody will mind
20:19:26 <AnMaster> and not put up my erlang deadfish
20:19:30 <ais523> that's common even on Wikipedia, and some people have done it before
20:19:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I will
20:19:35 <ais523> or you can just post as an anon if you prefer
20:19:37 <AnMaster> I will mind
20:19:45 <AnMaster> ais523, my ip!
20:19:46 <AnMaster> :P
20:19:55 <AnMaster> nah I guess I'll just skip it
20:20:03 <AnMaster> ais523, btw
20:20:12 <AnMaster> ais523, does deadfish strip trailing newline?
20:20:17 <AnMaster> on input
20:20:22 <ais523> it's interactive
20:20:27 <AnMaster> ais523, yes
20:20:33 <AnMaster> exactly
20:20:36 <ais523> and I think it strips newlines if and only if there's something else on the line
20:20:47 <AnMaster> ais523, right. That is painful
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20:25:58 <AnMaster> ais523, does it matter of the interpreter is bignum?
20:26:12 <AnMaster> I mean, I do handle -1 and 256 as original code
20:26:19 <AnMaster> but with s you can get outside that
20:26:30 <ais523> AnMaster: getting outside it is part of the fun
20:26:45 <ais523> in fact, the discussions here we had about making Deadfish TC relied on bignums
20:27:52 <AnMaster> ais523, http://paste.lisp.org/display/76430
20:28:10 <AnMaster> ais523, you need *two* bignums to do that
20:28:15 <ais523> no you don't
20:28:18 <ais523> well, maybe not
20:28:18 <AnMaster> really?
20:28:22 <AnMaster> what about control flow
20:28:23 <ais523> having a square instruction makes things more complicated
20:28:28 <ais523> control flow I'm not sure about
20:28:59 <AnMaster> ais523, you need some sort of control flow. All you have now is a fixed program. Even with bignums you couldn't implement bf in it
20:29:05 <AnMaster> that is bf without IO
20:29:38 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway what do you think of my erlang implementation?
20:29:47 <ais523> simple enough
20:29:55 <ais523> but with that licence, it wouldn't be acceptable on Esolang anyway
20:30:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I would relicense it as public domain if I got my account back
20:30:24 <AnMaster> simple enough
20:30:50 <AnMaster> ais523, graue would probably not believe me if I asked him, so better you ask him (since he would trust you more)
20:30:54 <AnMaster> (and you know who I am)
20:31:23 <AnMaster> ais523, :)
20:37:06 <kerlo> oerjan: what I mean is to pretend it's a circle.
20:37:14 <kerlo> He's not here, but I'm sure that message will find him eventually.
20:39:25 <AnMaster> kerlo, it isn't
20:39:50 <AnMaster> the circle is a lie!
20:40:33 <kerlo> Intelligence is about ignoring what isn't important.
20:40:51 <kerlo> For much of the problem, it's not important that it's actually an ellipse.
20:41:08 <AnMaster> true
20:43:28 <oklopol> then what is important?
20:43:38 <kerlo> Area and betweenness.
20:43:56 <kerlo> Area-preserving affine transformations preserve both of these.
20:44:01 <oklopol> what's betweenness?
20:44:15 <kerlo> Whether or not one point is between two others.
20:45:03 <oklopol> err so that every line cuts it zero or 2 times?
20:45:09 <oklopol> except for tangents
20:45:13 <oklopol> so 0-2
20:45:16 <oklopol> or what do you mean
20:45:32 <ehird> AnMaster: graue will, most likely, tell you that if you give a shit about your ip being exposed jsut create another account
20:45:42 <ehird> at least, that's what any sane person would.
20:45:49 <AnMaster> http://paste.lisp.org/display/76432
20:45:57 <AnMaster> fixed some comment typos
20:46:01 <kerlo> I'm saying that an area-preserving affine transformation is useful in this case, I guess.
20:46:08 <AnMaster> and now it works according to reference implementation
20:46:15 <ehird> "reset my password", sure. "reset my password because i refuse to edit anonymously and otherwise i will STOP EDITING FOREVER", oh go away.
20:46:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I will only ask the first obviously
20:46:55 <kerlo> If you want to maximize the area of a rectangle inscribed in an ellipse, then whatever transformation you apply needs to preserve area and rectangleness.
20:47:04 <ehird> AnMaster: so why are you asking the other here
20:47:19 <AnMaster> ehird, because graue isn't here? So it doesn't matter.
20:47:23 <AnMaster> and stop bitching
20:47:26 <ehird> it's the kind of thing you'd call me childish for, actually (refusing to edit just because of username not being AnMaster or ip being exposed)
20:49:18 <oklopol> o
20:49:21 <ais523> oko
20:49:36 <oklopol> ol fokol ofol ooo.....
20:49:45 <ehird> z
20:49:49 <ais523> oko polofol o kolooo
20:50:02 <oklopol> kol kol kolk olk oo :)
20:50:12 <ehird> i need a translator
20:50:23 <ehird> oklopol: translate oko to english and post it to agora</obscure>
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20:51:40 <AnMaster> someone should make a TC language based on "oko"
20:51:53 <AnMaster> and not just a bf in a thin wrapper
20:52:20 <ehird> only oklopol could, and he won't because that's sacrelige
20:52:22 <AnMaster> a bf lookalike*
20:52:38 <oklopol> okokokokoko
20:52:43 <AnMaster> ehird, then his followers should do it
20:52:48 <oklopol> i was thinking about one at some point
20:52:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, really?
20:52:57 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it would be inferior
20:53:05 <ehird> nothing can truly capture oko apart from itself.
20:53:15 <AnMaster> interesting
20:53:18 <AnMaster> go ahead...
20:53:31 * AnMaster backs away slowly
20:53:35 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but it was more weird than it was interesting; it was more like an elaborate prng than a programming language
20:53:56 <ehird> AnMaster: you see, an alien called Xenu...
20:54:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, heh
20:54:16 <AnMaster> ehird, argh!
20:54:43 <ehird> ...made a Time Cube, which encompasses all 4 corners of spacetime, and...
20:54:59 <AnMaster> ...
20:55:01 <AnMaster> oh my
20:55:50 <ehird> ...dropped it as a bomb on to Earth, and the Mayans were left with traces of the magic, predicting that in 2012...
20:56:09 <AnMaster> ...we would run out of ipv4?
20:56:28 <ehird> ... kind of.
20:56:37 <AnMaster> ehird, what had you planned to say?
20:56:54 <ehird> I was trying to tie it to Christianity.
20:56:56 <ehird> Or buddhism
20:56:59 <AnMaster> I see
20:57:00 <ehird> Or mormonism
20:57:01 <kerlo> ...therefore, God exists and the theory of evolution is false.
20:57:07 <ehird> kerlo: Exactly.
20:57:11 <AnMaster> hah
20:58:37 <ehird> Christians don't write genetic algorithms; they intelligently design them.
20:59:16 <AnMaster> intelligent design algorithm?
20:59:32 <oklopol> sounds awesome
20:59:33 <oklopol> or not
20:59:36 <oklopol> dunno
20:59:47 <AnMaster> ehird, actually genetic ones tend to not evolve the actual algorithm, just the parameters
20:59:56 <AnMaster> or fudge factors
21:00:09 <ehird> AnMaster: elders _|_
21:00:16 <AnMaster> ehird, ?
21:00:46 <oklopol> hahaha fudge factory you mean the ass? :D
21:01:33 <AnMaster> I didn't
21:01:38 <AnMaster> maybe ehird did
21:04:52 <ehird> "Scheme seemed closer to the (register) machine than C, and it seemed like a nice alternative to assembly language."
21:05:34 <AnMaster> ehird, source
21:05:42 <ehird> anonymous.
21:05:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well where did you get it...
21:05:55 <ehird> the internet.
21:05:59 <AnMaster> ehird, link?
21:06:06 <ehird> http://internet.com/
21:06:10 <AnMaster> ...
21:06:25 <AnMaster> ehird, that exists
21:11:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:12:48 <ehird> ais523: has the underhanded c contest disappeared?
21:13:00 <ais523> ehird: no
21:13:04 <ehird> http://underhanded.xcott.com/
21:13:06 <ehird> sure?
21:13:09 <ais523> there was a slashdot article about the IOCCC disappearing
21:13:15 <ais523> Xcott himself showed up on the comments
21:13:23 <ehird> but the site is gone.
21:13:31 <ais523> what, really?
21:13:37 <ehird> http://underhanded.xcott.com/
21:13:40 <ehird> i did just link you.
21:13:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:13:56 <ais523> it doesn't look gone to me, just broken
21:14:29 <AnMaster> yeah
21:14:36 <ehird> broken = gone
21:14:43 <ehird> the5k.org has been broken for years; it's gone
21:14:47 <AnMaster> email him
21:14:59 <AnMaster> or her
21:15:02 <ehird> yeah with my psychic email guessing powers.
21:15:10 <AnMaster> ehird, don't know his email?
21:15:10 <ehird> also, I imagine he knows.
21:19:20 <ehird> I hate hate hate how ioccc's .c links don't open in the browser.
21:19:31 <ais523> your browser is misconfigured, then
21:19:45 <ais523> unless it's sending as application/octet-stream for some reason
21:19:50 * ais523 glares at paste.eso-std.org
21:19:57 <ehird> I beg to differ: Content-Type: text/x-csrc
21:19:58 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
21:20:02 <ehird> that's not even a valid content type
21:20:05 <ais523> wtf?
21:20:07 <ehird> also, you liked it well enough before AnMaster complained about it
21:20:09 <ais523> ok, why is it using that type?
21:20:12 <ais523> and yes, I liked it
21:20:18 <ais523> I was trying to point out you were being inconsistent
21:20:19 <ehird> ais523: ioccc.org's server is misconfigured, then.
21:20:23 <ais523> yes, agreed
21:20:24 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
21:20:28 <ais523> possibly both, actually
21:22:28 <ehird> what I wouldn't give for mkcd() { mkdir $1; cd $1 }
21:22:31 <ehird> oh wait, I just did it.
21:22:49 <ais523> I hardly ever mkdir
21:22:54 <ais523> so mkcd isn't all that useful
21:24:12 <ehird> so, the vast majority of ioccc programs can't be compiled by default. :D
21:25:05 <ais523> they're shipped with makefiles
21:25:12 <ais523> and yes, you do need to use the makefile normally
21:25:17 <ais523> or at least copy the options by hand
21:25:19 <ehird> yes, but they fail with the makefile
21:25:19 <ais523> -D options are very common
21:25:25 <ehird> I used the toplevel recursive make
21:25:29 <ehird> and most of them failed badly
21:25:39 <ais523> what sort of error messages?
21:25:45 <ehird> syntax errors, etc
21:25:55 <AnMaster> ehird, a lot of them are due to traditional C
21:25:59 <AnMaster> pre-ANSI
21:25:59 <ehird> yes
21:26:15 <AnMaster> ehird, -traditional-cpp to GCC may help
21:26:27 <ais523> the catchall -traditional will probably work better
21:26:35 <ais523> to handle pre-ANSIisms in the source code itself
21:26:39 <ehird> wow, 2004/arachnid is awesome
21:26:40 <AnMaster> ais523, both do the same according to man gcc here
21:26:44 <ais523> many of the older programs have ansified versions
21:26:48 <AnMaster> -traditional
21:26:48 <AnMaster> -traditional-cpp
21:26:48 <AnMaster> Formerly, these options caused GCC to attempt to emulate a pre-standard C compiler. They are now only supported with the -E
21:26:48 <AnMaster> switch. The preprocessor continues to support a pre-standard mode. See the GNU CPP manual for details.
21:26:54 <ais523> ah
21:27:06 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc 4.1.2
21:27:40 <ehird> " see http://bellard.org/ for QEMU (Fabrice Bellard is an IOCCC 2001 winner), "
21:27:41 <ehird> Heh.
21:28:22 <AnMaster> ehird, there is one IOCCC entry that includes a configure
21:28:23 <AnMaster> ...
21:28:31 <AnMaster> iirc "worst abuse of rules"
21:28:33 <AnMaster> for that year
21:29:04 <AnMaster> 2004
21:31:27 <AnMaster> ehird, check that one out
21:31:31 <AnMaster> hibachi
21:31:32 <ehird> i did
21:37:06 <ehird> " * I achieved some additional tightness by '-Dif=while', saved 9 chars "
21:37:06 <ehird> ..
21:38:31 <AnMaster> wh:D
21:38:33 <AnMaster> ehird, :D
21:40:42 * ehird writes OCR program.
21:40:55 <ehird> it will recognize A, C, D and E.
21:41:41 <AnMaster> ehird, why those only?
21:41:56 <ehird> They're the only ones I've calculated OCR-optimization-count vectors for.
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21:42:31 <AnMaster> ehird, err, how do you mean?
21:42:45 <ehird> Don't question your elders.
21:42:57 <AnMaster> you are not my elder
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21:48:52 <ehird> http://pastie.org/private/qb2tg9bvpnsv2rw2q0ljgg This may or may not work, YMMV.
21:51:53 <AnMaster> mhm
21:52:38 <ehird> If anyone wants to give it a bigger alphabet/write a main()/test it, feel free :P
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21:57:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I nominate you :P
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21:57:54 <AnMaster> ehird, thanks but no
21:58:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going to sleep shortly, and your program will just be forgotten
21:58:23 <ehird> Oh irony.
21:58:30 <ehird> Actually, i'm testing it now.
21:58:32 <ehird> So not quite.
21:58:35 <AnMaster> ok
21:59:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I expect unit tests with 100% coverage too! ;P
21:59:30 <ehird> To hell with unit tests.
21:59:31 <AnMaster> ehird, one bug however:
21:59:33 <AnMaster> char *s = "ACDE";
21:59:35 <AnMaster> should be
21:59:39 <AnMaster> const char *s = "ACDE";
21:59:42 <AnMaster> or
21:59:46 <AnMaster> char s[] = "ACDE";
21:59:49 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd run now, before I kill you.
21:59:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what?
22:00:17 <ehird> I don't consider that a bug; you've said it before and I've replied that before, so you do know.
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22:04:19 <AnMaster> ehird, it is against the C standard.
22:04:45 <ehird> That code is invalid C89? I don't believe you.
22:05:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have the C89 spec. I know it breaks C99 technically
22:06:04 <ehird> If any implementation supported C99 I'd agree.
22:18:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you are not allowed to modify that char* = "ABCE" even in C89
22:18:37 <AnMaster> as in
22:18:46 <AnMaster> s[2] = 'G'
22:18:55 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't modify it.
22:19:08 <ehird> But you can't modify a string literal, umm, no shit, I do know c
22:20:16 <fizzie> Which part of C99 it breaks, though?
22:25:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't remember section number
22:25:38 <fizzie> Yes, but what's it about?
22:25:38 <AnMaster> but I do remember reading it
22:25:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, the type of a string literal is const char*, not char*
22:26:02 <fizzie> Well, that's just not true.
22:26:38 <ehird> truth must not get in the way of zealotry!
22:26:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh?
22:26:50 <AnMaster> I'm quite sure
22:26:52 <AnMaster> well actually
22:26:56 <AnMaster> const char[length]
22:27:10 <fizzie> 6.4.5 String literals: "-- character sequence is then used to initialize an array of static storage duration and length just sufficient to contain the sequence. For character string literals, the array elements have type char, and are initialized with --"
22:27:11 <AnMaster> and a pointer to one would be const char*
22:27:14 <fizzie> There is no "const" there.
22:27:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm quite sure I read it though
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22:28:04 <AnMaster> I don't have time to find it now, since I'm going to bed. But I'll look tomorrow
22:28:22 <fizzie> There is even an example about this.
22:29:06 <fizzie> EXAMPLE 5: The following three expressions have different meanings: "foo", (char []){"foo"}, (const char []){"foo"} [I abbreviated the example string a bit here]
22:29:41 <fizzie> "The first always has static storage duration and has type array of char, but need not be modifiable; the last two have automatic storage duration when they occur within the body of a function, and the first of these two is modifiable."
22:30:03 <fizzie> I think that quite clearly is saying that a plain "foo" is of type array of char.
22:30:05 <dbc> Even if a string literal were a const char *, that wouldn't mean that you couldn't initialize a non-const char * to point to one.
22:30:55 <AnMaster> true, you can cast away const
22:31:09 <ehird> AnMaster: ... so why did you say my code was invalid?
22:31:10 <ehird> i see.
22:31:23 <AnMaster> ehird, It looks I misremembered
22:31:32 <AnMaster> unlike you I can admit that.
22:32:02 <ehird> you do realise that I haven't actually denied misremembering once?
22:32:24 <AnMaster> ehird, no, but not admitting you were wrong
22:32:38 <AnMaster> which is same category
22:32:48 <AnMaster> still I'd say it is good practise to use const, to reduce possible bugs.
22:32:56 <ehird> right, right, I forgot reality wasn't actually relevant when saying such things
22:32:57 <AnMaster> for non-trivial programs it helps.
22:33:06 <AnMaster> night
22:33:14 <fizzie> All this proves is that the people writing C standards are a bunch of sissies, for not having the balls to change the type of string literals.
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22:37:15 <fizzie> Say what you want about C++, at least it has const char string literals.
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23:22:50 <ehird> baguette
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2009-03-04
00:01:45 <ehird> [[If one extend slightly the syntax for gerunds, DIAL can be implemented
00:01:45 <ehird> as:
00:01:46 <ehird> PLEASE ABSTAIN FROM EVERYTHING EXCEPT COMING FROM + ANSWERING
00:01:49 <ehird> WHILE REINSTATING THEM ]]
00:01:50 <ehird> more literate than cobol
01:11:50 <AnMaster> :D
01:12:00 <AnMaster> night really (failed to sleep first)
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07:48:01 <Dewi> Does anyone know of any unicode characters other than eszet where the toUpper() or toLower() cannot be reversed?
07:48:20 <Dewi> (ie changing case twice returns you to a different codepoint)
07:48:42 <Dewi> (Unicode counts as an esolang right? :P)
07:49:50 <oklopol> it's scary reading the logs, fizzie is such a me.
07:50:28 <oklopol> what does eszet do when you change it twice?
07:50:54 <fizzie> ß uppercased is SS.
07:50:59 <fizzie> And SS lowercased is just ss.
07:51:19 <fizzie> Ligatures have similar behaviour.
07:51:31 <fizzie> Just look at the list in http://www.unicode.org/Public/3.2-Update/SpecialCasing-3.2.0.txt for all special-cased things.
07:54:46 <fizzie> Of course for all uppercase characters x, toLower(toUpper(x)) "returns" to a different codepoint, but I suppose that wasn't the question.
07:55:34 <fizzie> Actually http://www.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/SpecialCasing.txt is a better link, since it's version 5.1.0 instead of 3.2.0.
07:56:07 <fizzie> It does not seem to be very much different.
07:57:30 <oklopol> hmph, god it's hard searching the logs based on remembering a topic.
07:57:48 <oklopol> should probably make a better searcher program
07:57:51 <oklopol> one that understands
07:58:06 <fizzie> Incidentally, what especially "you" I did in the logs this time?
07:58:27 <oklopol> you said something about not seeing a reason to make mistakes
07:58:41 <oklopol> it may have been a joke, but i'm pretty sure i've said the exact same line.
07:59:43 <oklopol> there was also some other one, but by then i may just have been looking for similarities sub...erconsciously.
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08:00:58 <fizzie> I seem to have been writing no-uppercase-at-the-beginning-of-sentences as late as 2004.
08:02:15 <oklopol> your style has actually changed a lot, while i see oklisms in both the old and the new fizzie, you're not always very *fizzie* in the backlogs.
08:02:31 <oklopol> this i cannot give examples of.
08:03:36 <fizzie> Yes, I don't recognize myself in 1990s-age logs (of other channels) at all.
08:04:05 <oklopol> anyway what i was searching the logs for is i remember once correcting an error of ehird's, and for some reason he just wouldn't admit he was wrong even though i clearly couldn't go on with my life without him admitting it. but maybe he did admit it then, or maybe i just imagined this, because i couldn't find it.
08:04:30 <fizzie> It is not trivial to write a regexp to match that.
08:04:46 <oklopol> indeed not, also i don't even use a regexp.
08:04:59 <oklopol> i just search for a string
08:05:08 <fizzie> Maybe you could graph ehird- and oklopol-densities over time, and look only at spots where those have noticeable peaks simultaneously.
08:05:27 <oklopol> yeah there will only be like 2-3 of those per day.
08:05:45 <oklopol> well
08:05:46 <fizzie> Yes, but I like graphs.
08:05:58 <oklopol> maybe like dialog densities
08:06:06 <oklopol> but
08:06:18 <oklopol> there was also oerjan or someone there, it was very spread out...
08:06:55 <oklopol> anyway i should probably start my readings ~>
08:11:27 <oklopol> fizzie: Yes, but I like graphs. <<< i like the good kind of graphs
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10:22:31 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Yes, but I like graphs. <-- :D
10:25:49 <fizzie> Since it's been such a while after my last graph-drawing, here's a messy one of channel activity over the whole year 2008: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2008.png
10:26:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the scale?
10:26:26 <fizzie> Who knows. :p
10:26:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the gap with 0 activity in the beginning?
10:27:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and what app did you use to draw this?
10:27:33 <fizzie> Well, the Y axis is "number of lines over three consecutive days", with each X-axis pixel stepping the window start time by 8 hours; and the nicknames are ordered by total line-counts.
10:27:42 <fizzie> It's a custom Perl script with GD.pm, again.
10:27:47 <AnMaster> ok
10:27:51 <fizzie> That's why there's no grid. :p
10:28:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw, that interactive fungot browser thingy... what was the url now again?
10:28:07 <fungot> AnMaster: here's a problem: you're modifying a global packages.scm; i never considered tic-tac-toe a game
10:28:11 <fizzie> Gap is in my logs, I probably again forgot to "/connect freenode", since I don't have it on automagically.
10:28:33 <fizzie> It was at http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html but I haven't continued the commentation, and the source might be a bit old.
10:28:33 <fungot> fizzie: hi evoli.
10:28:40 <AnMaster> ah
10:28:40 <fizzie> fungot: I'm not evoli.
10:28:41 <fungot> fizzie: so should i waste time on irc" ( ircnet)
10:28:48 <AnMaster> who is evoli?
10:29:14 <fizzie> Someone on #scheme.
10:29:23 <AnMaster> mhm
10:29:32 <AnMaster> fungot, I prefer if you spent your time in here
10:29:32 <fungot> AnMaster: but decided not to bother u for this one
10:29:41 <AnMaster> .
10:29:45 <AnMaster> good
10:29:50 <AnMaster> I gess
10:29:53 <AnMaster> guess*
10:30:49 <fizzie> Uh... actually it seems that the source is current (since it's fetched with a xmlhttprequest-style ajaxy thing from fungot.b98.txt) but the syntax highlighting doesn't match it. :p
10:30:49 <fungot> fizzie: dating advice? mzscheme? gambit? sisc?
10:31:11 <fizzie> fungot: Are you sure those things have to do with dating?
10:31:11 <fungot> fizzie: i found on the net." this is a public forum
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10:49:35 <fizzie> Oh, and here's the same thing as relative activities: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2008-r.png -- about the only clear thing in it is the ehird/tusho nickname-switcheroo.
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12:50:39 <oklopol> okay enigma pack 3, level 46 was a fun, nontrivial puzzle
12:51:24 <oklopol> well okay it was kinda trivial after i familiarized myself with the concept of moving bricks, but it took me a while to get there
12:51:31 <oklopol> so yeah, enigma++
12:53:03 * ais523 finds it interesting to see what oklopol sees and doesn't see as hard
12:53:48 <oklopol> well more interesting than hard, took me three attempts, and on the first one i just tried something at random
12:54:39 <oklopol> on the second i rationalized the beginning but took a few chances on intuition and failed
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13:03:56 <Mony> plop
13:04:03 <ais523> hi
13:07:21 <fizzie> Intuition: just say no.
13:08:17 <oklopol> yeah it's a pretty useless thing
13:35:57 <ehird> 10:25 fizzie: Since it's been such a while after my last graph-drawing, here's a messy one of channel activity over the whole year 2008: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2008.png
13:36:02 <ehird> i like it
13:36:15 <ehird> also, mine is kind of skewed since I say things in multiple lines.
13:36:18 <ehird> 08:05 fizzie: Maybe you could graph ehird- and oklopol-densities over time, and look only at spots where those have noticeable peaks simultaneously.
13:36:19 <ehird> 08:05 oklopol: yeah there will only be like 2-3 of those per day.
13:36:20 <ehird> :D
13:36:35 <ehird> 10:49 fizzie: Oh, and here's the same thing as relative activities: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2008-r.png -- about the only clear thing in it is the ehird/tusho nickname-switcheroo.
13:36:39 <ehird> tha's a lot of oklopol
13:36:58 <ais523> that's pretty
13:37:22 <ais523> I'm actually surprised how high "others" is
13:37:41 <ehird> well, it has the peaks, prolly from when new people arrive
13:37:44 <ehird> or asiekierka
13:37:53 * ais523 would like to see a smoothed version of the first graph
13:37:59 <ais523> maybe with weekly moving averages
13:43:45 <ehird> "Dan Bernstein awards $1,000 for a security hole discovered in djbdns -- its first in almost a decade!"
13:43:46 <ehird> woah
13:43:52 <ehird> he actually awarded it
13:43:53 <ehird> djb++
13:44:25 <ais523> well, aparently there was a security hole in qmail that was discovered a while back that he didn't award for
13:44:34 <ais523> because it only manifested on computers with at least 56GB of RAM
13:45:29 <ehird> yes, well, that makes sense
13:45:36 <ehird> this bug is one that can actually be exploited
14:10:37 <oklopol> i think that activity graph might be better if it also showed how much talk actually happened
14:10:52 <oklopol> also how's that a lot of oklopol, it's much more of everyone else
14:11:12 <oklopol> well maybe more than you'd've thought, but i don't see how that's an interesting observation :P
14:11:28 * oklopol mentions level 46 again
14:11:42 * oklopol goes back to his bookings ->
14:22:45 <ehird> oklopol: want a challenge? try the Experimental set, "Impossible?"
14:23:04 <ais523> ehird: I've done that one, it's easy
14:23:11 <ehird> wut :D
14:23:17 <ais523> there wasn't anything special about it IIRC
14:23:22 <ehird> sure there is
14:23:22 <ais523> AFAICT, it's unfinished
14:23:24 <ehird> it's impossible
14:23:29 <AnMaster> hi ais523
14:23:30 <ais523> how did I not notice?
14:23:33 <ais523> hi AnMaster
14:24:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> it's impossible <-- no, but you have to guess very luckily
14:25:07 <ais523> I'm pretty sure I remember finding a magic wand on that level, which makes it trivial
14:25:20 <ais523> ah, maybe there's a hidden wand somewhere that you can only obtain in the first few seconds
14:26:12 <ehird> ais523:
14:26:17 <ehird> you're thinking of Impultest
14:26:17 <ais523> but as AnMaster mentions, it's clearly possible if you get to the corner oxyds before the bolders do and they happen to be the right colour
14:26:17 <AnMaster> just finished it
14:26:47 <AnMaster> yep, you need to get to the one in the top right corner quickly
14:26:59 <AnMaster> and then you must get it correctly on the next block
14:27:02 <AnMaster> after that: trivial
14:27:25 <ais523> AnMaster: you actually get two tries, you can hit a block on your way to the corner oxyd
14:27:31 <AnMaster> ais523, true
14:28:08 <oklopol> i'm not interested in puzzles that require dexterity or any kind of guesswork, and usually not ones that require exploring either, unless they happen to be fun for some reason, but a good puzzle will always be nicer anyway.
14:28:45 <oklopol> well, i love exploring concepts, like how something moves, but i don't like searching the level for information, or physically exploring large areas
14:29:46 <oklopol> well. i guess i just like to solve the things in my brain and not in the game.
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14:37:31 <FireFly> What game is this about? ;o
14:37:53 <ais523> it's basically a generic puzzle game
14:38:05 <ais523> which can emulate most of the others as long as you flavour them as involving marbles
14:38:14 <fizzie> ais523: "Great minds" and so on; I actually did weekly averages before you mentioned them. http://zem.fi/~fis/esoteric-2008-smooth.png
14:38:36 <ais523> so it has dexterity-based, speed-based, knowledge-based, intelligence-based, and patience-based puzzles
14:38:44 <ais523> oklopol seems to like the intelligence-based ones best
14:39:14 <ehird> fizzie: I'm basically the loudest person on average, then, if you discount AnMaster's 5 billion "Deewiant: boring thing about befunge" per day.
14:39:22 <ehird> That matches my intuitive experience. :P
14:39:46 <FireFly> Does this game have a name?
14:39:55 <ehird> FireFly: Enigma
14:40:07 <ehird> http://www.nongnu.org/enigma/
14:40:15 <FireFly> Ah
14:41:03 <ehird> oklopol: try the microban levels
14:41:33 <FireFly> Hm
14:41:37 <FireFly> I recognize this game
14:41:44 <FireFly> I think I've played it before
14:41:47 <ais523> pretty much everyone here does, somehow
14:43:55 <oklopol> it seems me and psygnisfive take turns being on top
14:44:00 <oklopol> hmm he isn't here
14:44:01 <oklopol> nm
14:44:04 <ehird> *groan*
14:44:45 <oklopol> :)
14:45:04 <oklopol> microban
14:45:15 <oklopol> maybe at some point i will
14:50:18 <fizzie> Occasional visitors are more visible in other graphs. http://zem.fi/~fis/test.png has 2009 January (day-long windows, X-scale 1 hour per pixel, relative percentages of activity) and the fluxo invasion is very visible.
14:51:05 <fizzie> Flexo, not fluxo. Anyway.
14:51:23 <fizzie> A grid would be nice too. And some labels.
14:51:29 <ehird> And a pony yo
14:52:23 <oklopol> who's flexo
14:52:24 <oklopol> :<
14:52:30 <ehird> a german guy
14:58:05 <FireFly> Statistics are interesting
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15:02:52 <fizzie> Yes, we're certainly putting the ATTIC back in the stATisTICs.
15:06:50 <GregorR> We're putting the TITS back in staTIsTicS!
15:07:17 <fizzie> I didn't want to be rude.
15:07:43 <GregorR> (There are 23 women and 15 men in a conference. The women's cup sizes are: (etc). The men weight: (etc). How many tits are there?)
15:08:08 <fizzie> If I only do the cumulative-activity-thingamajick but not the normalization inherent in the relative-activity-thing, the flexo invasion loses prominence: http://zem.fi/~fis/test2.png
15:09:18 <GregorR> ... wtfbbq?
15:10:15 <ehird> activity graph.
15:15:19 <ehird> HOLY SHIT
15:15:21 <ehird> * (del) (cur) 16:29, 22 September 2006 . . Tom Duff (Talk | contribs) . . 513×385 (10,841 bytes) (The output of a sample EXPLOR program.)
15:15:24 <ehird> --esolangs wiki
15:15:28 <ehird> Tom Duff.
15:15:34 <ais523> who is he?
15:15:40 <ehird> ais523: ... Duff's Device.
15:15:46 <ais523> ah, wow
15:15:56 <ehird> Also wrote Unix10/Plan9's "rc" shell
15:16:01 <GregorR> Not the same Tom Duff :P
15:16:15 <ehird> GregorR: no, it is
15:16:18 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Tom_Duff
15:16:24 <ehird> My wikipedia bio links to tom duff on wikipedia
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15:16:55 <GregorR> *snaps*
15:17:10 <ehird> Was that your spine?
15:17:33 <GregorR> That's a godawful picture of him :P
15:17:38 <GregorR> Or at least, I sure hope it is :P
15:17:42 <ehird> Evil Tom Duff
15:17:56 <ehird> also, programmers aren't known for their beauty
15:18:01 <fizzie> "Your femur is broken." "Broken as in 'not functioning properly'?" "Broken as in, 'there are 2 smaller femurs where you used to have one.'" "Hmm, 2 femurs. Will this give me super powers?" "If you consider the ability to writhe in pain a super power, then yes."
15:18:03 <ais523> does he have a beard?
15:18:07 <fizzie> Sorry, the 'snap' just reminded me.
15:18:09 <ehird> ais523: no
15:18:12 <ais523> that's how we can tell if duff's device will stay popular
15:18:18 <ais523> as he doesn't, presumably it's falling out of fashion
15:18:27 <ehird> I think it never got into fashion
15:18:33 <ais523> well, exactly
15:18:56 <ehird> GregorR: his favicon looks better http://www.tomduff.com/index.html
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15:19:17 <ehird> "Sure. Here's a moderately recent picture of me sitting unshaven in my office scowling at my son, who was playing with the camera. At least I combed my hair. Do whatever you want with it. Tom Duff (talk) 05:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC) "
15:19:19 <ehird> -talk:tom duff
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15:21:32 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:21:44 <ais523> wb me
15:21:54 <GregorR> Firefox 3 /added/ support for Gopher :P
15:21:57 <GregorR> That's weird :P
15:22:08 <GregorR> (Full support that is)
15:22:11 <ehird> IT CANNOT COMPETE WITH VONKEROR
15:22:14 <ehird> or sth
15:25:23 <ehird> So, I've thought up some definitions for IO-complete.
15:26:02 <ehird> I-complete: The program can, at its will, accept linear text input from the user and then use that text to modify its internal state with complete differentiation of all characters in the alphabet.
15:26:08 <ais523> GregorR: does it do client-BF?
15:26:09 <ais523> No?
15:26:15 <ais523> then it doesn't have full support
15:26:26 <ehird> O-complete: The program can, at its will, output linear text combined in any arbitrary way from its internal state.
15:26:28 <ehird> Thoughts?
15:26:53 <ais523> the usual definition is that it can produce any output that's a Turing-computable (or substitute other computational class here) function of its input
15:27:06 <ais523> in other words, that its input -> output processing computational class is the same as the computational class of the lang as a whole
15:27:09 <ehird> That doesn't handle interactive programs ala BF
15:27:24 <ais523> does it have to?
15:27:26 <ehird> I'm basically trying to define the set of languages that, to the user, are indistinguishable from BF.
15:27:29 <ais523> ah, ok
15:27:41 <ehird> which is basically the standard model with just stdin/stdout
15:27:45 <ehird> We use "BF-complete" for that, I'd like to formalize the definitions
15:27:59 <ais523> in that case, you need to change it to cumulative input -> cumulative output, and allow the program to produce output before all the input is read
15:28:11 <ehird> Yes, but I've already said some definitions
15:28:18 <ehird> I'm just wondering if they're any good
15:38:45 <ehird> I wonder what lazy apl would be like
15:39:55 <ehird> apart from awesome
15:49:09 <ehird> Oh look, Eric Schmidt slams Twitter with no more than a vague idea what it is.
15:50:01 <ehird> Hm, no. Just a bad headline.
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15:53:44 <ehird> http://imgur.com/3US8K.png Uhhh...
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16:03:33 <comexk> hey ehird
16:03:38 <ehird> hello.
16:04:28 <ais523> hi
16:04:33 * ais523 is not ehird but says hi anyway
16:04:37 <comexk> also, 'againt the wall'
16:04:42 <comexk> was that intentional? :p
16:04:45 <ais523> no idea
16:04:51 <ais523> I'm not even sure if it was in the original proposal or not
16:04:54 <ehird> yes. also, you want ##nomic or /msg <someone>
16:05:07 <comexk> no, this is ##nomic
16:05:16 <ehird> you're mistaken.
16:05:20 <comexk> since ehird isn't in the other nomic channel
16:05:29 <ehird> i'm sure everyone else will appreciate that.
16:05:31 -!- ehird has left (?).
16:05:47 <comexk> hehehe
16:06:00 -!- ehird has joined.
16:07:31 <ais523> ehird: but Wooble isn't an op here...
16:12:08 <comexk> oh, is that the problem?
16:12:16 <comexk> I thought e was just being a jerk
16:12:25 <ehird> can we keep #esoteric to vaguely esoteric topics?
16:12:35 <ehird> if you're trying to direct messages to me, IRC has a facility for that
16:12:57 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:12:57 <comexk> at the moment, I'm trying to direct messges to ehird and ais523
16:13:04 <comexk> as well as anyone else who is interested in nomic
16:13:09 <ais523> IRC has a facility for that, too, but freenode blocks it
16:13:11 <ehird> there's a channel for that
16:13:18 <comexk> which one?
16:13:20 <ehird> see, people join channels they want traffic to do with
16:13:23 <ehird> and leave ones they don't
16:13:24 <ais523> the syntax is /msg ehird,ais523 This is a message to send to two people
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16:13:34 <ehird> generally, disrespecting this choice leads to people ignoring you
16:13:34 <ais523> [16:13] <-> ehird,comex> test
16:13:35 <ais523> [16:13] [407] PRIVMSG Too many recipients. Only 1 processed
16:13:44 <comexk> ehird: except you're ehird
16:13:52 <ehird> so, if you want to continue to be able to direct messages at me, I'll take the same course of action
16:13:54 <comexk> and generally overreact to things
16:13:57 <ehird> if you keep doing this
16:14:10 <ehird> comexk: you want to talk to me, you play by my rules. simple enough
16:14:10 <comexk> ah well, i can just ignore you
16:14:34 <ehird> that would solve both problems
16:14:34 <comexk> ehird: why are you playing nomic if you don't want to talk about nomic?
16:14:48 <ehird> who said I don't want to talk about nomic? I don't want to talk about nomic in irc in ##nomic.
16:14:57 <ehird> Email me or something. Or use /msg.
16:15:08 -!- comexk has left (?).
16:15:20 <ehird> How will I deal with this loss.
16:17:58 <oerjan> <AnMaster> ais523, should I put up something following the same implementation in C but that is sane
16:18:14 <oerjan> i think that may be a violation of the spirit of Deadfish. Or not.
16:19:20 <oerjan> <ehird> Agh, I ran into GreyKnight -again-
16:19:36 <oerjan> sure it's the same person? it's a fairly obvious nick...
16:20:04 <ehird> relatively
16:20:13 <ehird> well,.
16:20:14 <ehird> not so much now.
16:20:21 <ehird> oerjan: quite, though.
16:20:22 <oerjan> of course running into people on Agora, esolang and wikipedia isn't unheard of from before.
16:20:26 <ehird> because it has information about his kilt.
16:20:37 <ehird> I don't recall how I know he has a kilt from other sources
16:20:38 <ehird> but I do
16:21:05 <ehird> also, apparently he's a christian who has vowed, among other things, to "Refrain from cutting the hair on one's head".
16:21:07 <ehird> go figure.
16:21:32 <ais523> well, christians don't have do vow that AFAIK, but presumably there's nothing to stop them vowing that if they want to
16:21:36 <oerjan> huh
16:21:46 <ehird> ais523: part of the nazirite vow, apparently
16:21:49 <ehird> although that's a jewish thng
16:21:50 <ehird> *thing
16:22:00 <ehird> it is a good excuse to avoid cutting your head if you're a teen, I suppose
16:22:13 <oerjan> what a sikh thing to do
16:24:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm ok
16:24:28 <oerjan> <AnMaster> how does Deadfish behave on EOF?
16:24:47 <oerjan> i think there may be some bug there too...
16:29:30 <oerjan> <ehird> and ais523, ihope (iirc), oerjan, everyone
16:29:45 <oerjan> the rumors of my adminhood are _still_ exaggerated
16:30:10 <ais523> me and keymaker are the only Esolang admins who are active with admin work, IIRC
16:30:18 <ais523> and we're only active with it when there's actual admin work to do
16:30:19 <ehird> # (diff) (hist) . . Esolang:Community Portal‎; 19:18 . . (+9) . . Zzo38 (Talk | contribs) (tunes.org logs are now listed in descending order of date)
16:30:23 <ehird> clever guy, my idea is indeed good.
16:30:23 <ais523> which is nearly all cleaning up spam
16:30:32 <ehird> even tho I stole it from #concatenative
16:30:32 <ais523> and blocking the people responsible
16:30:50 <ais523> or more likely the zombies responsible
16:30:59 <oerjan> Brains...
16:31:09 * oerjan is a responsible zombie. Oh wait.
16:31:16 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!This may not be a good channel to take brains into
16:31:16 <fungot> This may not be a good channel to take brains into
16:31:20 <ehird> I had a sort-of-unique idea, based on INTERCAL and Forte.
16:31:24 <ais523> ehird: yes?
16:31:36 <ehird> Basically, it's all redefining language constructs.
16:31:47 <ais523> clever
16:31:51 <ehird> So, to terminate a loop, for instance, you change the loop end command into a nop.
16:31:53 <ehird> Things like that.
16:31:57 <ehird> And the whole language is based around that one operation.
16:32:21 <ais523> that's how I normally terminate short loops in INTERCAL nowadays too, but your language would presumably go much further
16:32:35 <ehird> yes
16:33:24 <ehird> ais523: I'm trying to figure out how to have actual computation if all you can do is remap constructs...
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16:33:57 <ais523> you may be able to use the constructs as a minsky machine
16:34:03 <ais523> Don't do "jump to the next line."
16:34:09 <ais523> Don't do "Don't do "jump to the next line.""
16:34:10 <ehird> ais523: you need a nop then
16:34:17 <ais523> Remove a copy of Don't do from the preceding line
16:34:27 <ehird> 10 goto 20 -> nop 20 ...
16:34:31 <ehird> you need goto and nop there
16:34:36 <ehird> that's two more non-swap primitives
16:34:42 <ais523> yes
16:34:44 <ehird> i want to bake the computation into the swapping, somehow
16:34:49 <ais523> well, nop is easily represented by 0 commands
16:34:56 <ais523> just replace a command with nothing
16:35:02 <ehird> ah
16:35:02 <ehird> yes
16:35:09 <ais523> that might be a little hard to reverse, but I'm sure there's a way
16:35:23 <ais523> as for goto, you need some way not to fall off the end of the program
16:35:24 <ehird> then with one more operator: "current remapped value of"
16:35:26 <ehird> we could do:
16:36:11 <ehird> ^10;^20/.^20;stuff.
16:36:15 <ehird> ^ is the current value of
16:36:19 <ehird> on its own in a statement, does nothing
16:36:21 <ehird> so we use it as line numbers
16:36:25 <ais523> ehird: what about ///?
16:36:28 <ehird> . is statement terminator, ; is subexpression terminator
16:36:29 <ais523> your language is reminding me of that
16:36:35 <ehird> problem is, it just cancels out the ^20
16:36:36 <ehird> not the stuff
16:36:39 <ehird> so:
16:36:52 <ehird> ^10;[^20;?]/.^20;stuff.
16:36:59 <ehird> erases the ^20 line
16:37:01 <ehird> more spacious:
16:37:10 <ehird> ^10; [^20; ?] / .
16:37:12 <ehird> ^20; stuff.
16:37:28 <ehird> pretty sure that's tc.
16:37:48 <ehird> the RHS of / is evaluated ofc
16:38:41 <ehird> ^10; [20;?] / ^[10;?].
16:38:41 <ehird> ^20.
16:38:44 <ehird> I think that's an imnp
16:38:45 <ehird> imp
16:38:46 <ehird> not sure
16:38:48 <ehird> hmm
16:38:50 <ehird> no
16:38:53 <ehird> you can't use ? in a [] ofc
16:41:13 <oerjan> <kerlo> He's not here, but I'm sure that message will find him eventually.
16:41:21 <oerjan> LIES
16:42:09 <ehird> I forgot what I was doing. :(
16:42:19 <oerjan> <kerlo> Area-preserving affine transformations preserve both of these.
16:42:46 <kerlo> Hey!
16:42:50 <oerjan> what they do not preserve, however, are rectangles not aligned with the ellipse axes
16:43:08 <ehird> What was I doing, ais523?
16:43:13 <ais523> area-preserving affine transformations are rotations, reflections, translations, enlargements in one direction combined with an equal contraction in the other direction, shears...
16:43:19 <ais523> and lots of others, I expect
16:43:26 <ais523> ehird: inventing an INTERCAL/Forte hybrid
16:43:41 <ehird> No, no, I lost interest in that about half way through and returned to my previous doings, which was X.
16:43:43 <ehird> What is X?
16:44:00 <ais523> you were discussing GreyKnight before that
16:44:23 <kerlo> oerjan: but those are trivial to enlarge.
16:44:35 <kerlo> So we can ignore those.
16:44:39 <oerjan> kerlo: they are?
16:44:53 <kerlo> Yes. Just rotate and enlarge them.
16:45:06 <ehird> ais523: Yeah, well, I didn't actually tell this channel.
16:45:08 <oerjan> um no...
16:45:18 <ais523> ehird: how am I meant to guess, then?
16:45:28 <kerlo> ais523: I find it likely that those are the only area-preserving affine transformations.
16:45:29 <ehird> Telepathy.
16:45:39 <ais523> sorry, I'm fresh out of floating eye corpses
16:46:00 <ais523> kerlo: well, combinations of those are clearly also area-preserving affine transformations
16:46:02 <oerjan> you cannot rotate in an ellipse
16:46:39 <oerjan> you have to change into a circle first, which destroys rectangles
16:47:25 <oerjan> of course i find it unlikely that a largest rectangle would _not_ be aligned with the axes, but it needs proof
16:52:16 <ehird> gcc -E $*
16:52:20 <ehird> Pop quiz: Spot the fuck up.
16:53:26 <ais523> something to do with quoting?
16:53:39 <ehird> Nope, gcc will ignore non-.c files as "linker input"
16:53:55 <ehird> KICK ASS OR WHAT?!?!?
16:54:24 <ais523> that's fixable
16:54:24 <ais523> -x c
16:54:33 <ehird> I'm just doing /usr/bin/cpp -no-traditional-cpp $*
16:55:20 <ais523> -x c is a nice trick to know anyway
16:55:38 <oerjan> * ais523 glares at paste.eso-std.org
16:55:50 <oerjan> wait, eso-std.org exists again?
16:56:25 <ehird> WAIT WHAT THE FUCK, /usr/bin/cpp is a SHELL SCRIPT
16:56:28 <ehird> that-is-not-right
16:56:32 <ehird> # Transitional front end to CCCP to make it behave like (Reiser) CCP:
16:56:33 <ehird> # specifies -traditional
16:56:34 <ehird> # doesn't search gcc-include
16:56:36 <ehird> #
16:56:38 <ehird> # Copyright (c) 1990 The Regents of the University of California.
16:56:40 <ehird> # All rights reserved.
16:56:43 <oerjan> hm apparently not
16:56:44 <ehird> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha what the flying fck
16:56:45 <ehird> *fuck
16:56:53 <ehird> ais523: That's not right, is it.
16:57:32 <ehird> *Something* has shat all over my /usr/bin/cpp, methinks.
16:57:57 <ehird> ...nope, that's /Developer/usr/bin/cpp
16:58:11 <oerjan> ehird: they're trying to make it a killer app, i see
16:59:14 * oerjan is expecting bodily harm just about now
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16:59:27 <kerlo> oerjan: you can do whatever you want in an ellipse.
16:59:50 <kerlo> If you have a rectangle in an ellipse and their axes are aligned, that rectangle's corners do not all lie on the ellipse.
16:59:53 * oerjan swats kerlo -----###
16:59:58 <ehird> #!/bin/sh
16:59:58 <ehird> # apple's cpp is broken...
16:59:59 <ehird> # Update 2009-03-04: FUCK YOU APPLE PIECES OF SHIT
17:00:02 <ehird> The evolution of a file header.
17:00:18 <ehird> It works now. How unexpected.
17:00:32 <kerlo> It's easy enough to rotate a rectangle such that its two corners remain on the ellipse; you just have to scale it at the same time.
17:00:40 <oerjan> kerlo: by aligned i mean simply in direction
17:01:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.).
17:01:14 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
17:02:03 <kerlo> Me too.
17:02:03 <oerjan> kerlo: while preserving area?
17:02:33 <oerjan> kerlo: oh wait you were missing a "not"
17:02:38 <oerjan> or so i think
17:02:59 <kerlo> Not while preserving area, no.
17:03:28 <kerlo> What I'm saying is that the biggest rectangle you can fit in an ellipse is aligne with the ellipse.
17:03:42 <oerjan> kerlo: needs proof
17:04:30 <oklopol> well clearly that's the beautiful answer you'd expect.
17:04:49 <oklopol> so why prove it and risk ruining it
17:04:53 <kerlo> Suppose you have a rectangle that is in an ellipse and not aligned with the ellipse. It is possible to rotate the rectangle so that it is aligned with the elipse; upon doing so, it will be possible to make the rectangle bigger while remaining in the ellipse. Contradiction. Q.E.D.
17:05:02 <oklopol> err
17:05:05 <oklopol> where's the proof :D
17:05:29 <oerjan> kerlo: it's the remaining in the ellipse part that needs some proof
17:06:06 <kerlo> You prove it, then. :-P
17:06:12 <oerjan> too lazy :D
17:06:20 <oklopol> oerjan: adding enough formality will prove anything.
17:06:34 <oklopol> kerlo: um, unwrap definitions and you'll probably have it directly
17:06:53 <kerlo> That's nice.
17:07:08 <oerjan> i am assuming it would require some length calculations or something
17:07:30 <oklopol> basically you calculate the expression of the rectangle's area and find the zero of the derivative, prolly.
17:08:00 <oklopol> and by that expression i mean f(x) : angle -> area
17:08:11 <oerjan> which may not be hard, but rather diminishes the elegance of transforming to a circle afterwards
17:08:31 <oklopol> well i have no idea about context, i just found kerlo's statement funny :P
17:08:37 <oklopol> and now i need to go do a shoppe!
17:09:02 <oerjan> oklopol: just don't get caught
17:09:58 <oklopol> onion rings!
17:10:01 <oklopol> !!!
17:10:02 <oklopol> ->
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17:10:39 <ehird> How do you trap overflow on x86?
17:10:47 <oerjan> when onion rings, don't answer
17:11:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:11:41 <ehird> hi ais523
17:11:45 <ehird> i don't suppose you would know:
17:11:46 <ehird> How do you trap overflow on x86?
17:11:54 <ais523> I don't know offhand
17:12:05 <ais523> but based on my experiences of x86, I'd guess "with difficulty"
17:12:05 <ehird> can you even do it?
17:19:26 <ehird> I wonder how to allocate huge things (1gb) on the stack with alloca
17:19:38 <ais523> probably you can't, is the stack that big?
17:20:03 <ehird> i guess not.
17:20:24 <ehird> wow, my malloc() returns surprisingly clean results. like 0x200000
17:21:42 <ehird> ais523: is there any way to expand the stack?
17:21:47 <ais523> depends on the OS
17:22:01 <ehird> bsd
17:22:03 <ais523> you need to map in more memory in the address space it expands into
17:22:13 <ais523> and I don't know whether that's possible or not on BSD
17:22:15 <ais523> nor how
17:22:23 <ais523> hmm... are you working on that INTERCAL VM?
17:22:31 <ais523> it sounds like it, based on what you're saying
17:22:31 <ehird> not right now
17:24:04 <oerjan> <ehird> Tom Duff.
17:24:19 <oerjan> he did quite a bit on the wiki on esolang history iirc
17:24:58 <ais523> writing about pre-INTERCAL esolangs, IIRC
17:31:44 <ehird> ais523: so, how do you do it in linux?
17:32:07 <ais523> I don't know that either
17:32:11 <ehird> :<
17:44:56 <oerjan> hm synchronicity
17:45:08 <ehird> oerjan: itym coincidence
17:45:12 <oerjan> Grey Knight is on wp Did you Know
17:45:18 <oerjan> whatev
17:45:31 <oerjan> *knight
17:45:37 <ehird> ha
17:46:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:48:07 <oerjan> oh and the third one is about broken femurs, which were _also_ mentioned in the channel logs today :D
17:48:39 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:49:04 <ehird> "The first time I saw a program written in Forth, I thought the developer was just making up the language as he went along. Then I discovered that he was."
17:49:09 <ehird> — reddit
17:49:15 <ais523> haha
17:50:02 <oerjan> that would apply to any language suitable for DSELs...
17:50:03 <Deewiant> ( http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8210z/forth_is_a_program_that_interfaces_keyboards_with/ )
17:50:14 <oerjan> er, EDSL?
17:50:21 <ehird> ESDLs
17:50:22 <ehird> but no
17:50:23 <ehird> forth is more fluid
17:50:24 <Deewiant> same difference
17:50:32 <ehird> you can't get rid of lisp's parentheses, but you can turn forth into anything
17:50:51 <Deewiant> sure you can get rid of lisp's parentheses
17:50:58 <ehird> not in r5rs.
17:50:59 <Deewiant> (interpret-my-language "................................................")
17:51:05 <ehird> that is not extending the language.
17:51:07 <ehird> that's not embedded.
17:51:53 <Deewiant> it's embedded in a sense, you could call stuff from the outer scope from in there
17:52:01 <ehird> no, it's really not.
17:52:06 <oerjan> hm the french term would have LSD in it, i'm sure
17:53:25 <Deewiant> Is there a sensible and generally accepted definition for what exactly a DSEL is anyway
17:53:49 <ehird> your put lol
17:54:31 <oerjan> ehird: er?
17:54:43 <ehird> I meant to say your butt lol.
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17:56:04 <oerjan> ehird: ESDL gives all sorts of other meanings
17:56:17 <ehird> i meant EDSL
17:56:44 <oerjan> oh that actually gives a hit
17:56:46 <lament> DSEL is a buzzword
17:57:04 <oerjan> although there are still other meanings
17:57:10 <lament> it means, "I'm too cool for things like OOP but I still want my own acronyms"
17:57:58 <oerjan> oh DSEL is also defined
17:58:28 <ais523> ITCFTLOBISWMOA?
17:58:33 <oerjan> it's short for "acronym we cannot decide on the ordering of"
17:58:47 <ais523> AWCDOTOO sounds interesting, actually
17:59:11 * ais523 wonders what language-specif