00:00:38 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: But like I said, Mathematica has *3,000* mainspace builtins.
00:00:52 <ehird> but the builtins don't use it.
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00:01:10 <oklopol> all the cool guys just use a massive global namespace.....
00:01:24 <Slereah2> Do you want to see my massive global namespace?
00:01:37 <oklopol> you bet i know what you mean to see
00:01:47 <oerjan> Slereah2: say no more say no more
00:01:50 <ehird> can you all just have sex already or something so you can stop being suggestive all the time
00:02:10 <oerjan> ehird: i don't think that would help, do you?
00:02:19 <oklopol> did you notice the 8-7-6-5
00:02:20 <ehird> oerjan: maybe not but they could make a video ;-)
00:02:39 <oklopol> slerry is 8, i'm 7, oerjan is 6, ehird is 5
00:03:49 <oklopol> and here i was thinking maybe it was a bit underestimatory to actually explain that to you, i mean, umm, how could you not spot a 8765 when you see one.
00:04:11 <oklopol> i mean it's pretty much the coolest sequence you've seen.
00:04:26 <oerjan> oklopol: it's not every client that makes that easily visible you know
00:04:41 <oerjan> also not everyone has superhuman eyes like you
00:04:57 <oklopol> oerjan: maybe you should learn lisp, you know, see beyond syntax and shit.
00:05:11 <oklopol> my eyes are actually hurting like hell atm.
00:05:20 <oklopol> probably from all the divinely magnificent usage.
00:05:55 <oerjan> oklopol: just be careful that your laser vision doesn't turn on accidentally when you are tired. it's hell on monitors.
00:06:43 <oerjan> <- always the one with the useful advice
00:08:00 <oklopol> maybe i should take a few week hiatos
00:08:05 <oerjan> oklopol: you cannot interrupt sentences like that without saying candlejack fi
00:09:22 <oklopol> i mean i have a lot of stuff i know exactly how to do, just would have to actually do it, like say graverse
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00:10:23 <ehird> man oklopol you should try mathematica
00:10:26 <psygnisf_> olsner: i dont know how to use them until i understand them :p
00:10:27 <ehird> you can PLAY the reimann zeta function
00:10:34 <psygnisf_> ive never even seen real examples. meh.
00:10:38 <ehird> Play[RiemannSiegelZ[1000 t], {t, 0, 1}]
00:10:40 <ehird> man it sounds awesome.
00:11:59 <oklopol> but i can't really, you know, be excited
00:12:09 <oklopol> i'm so damn high on tiredness.
00:12:24 <olsner> psygnisf_: of course you won't, but that doesn't mean you can't use them
00:12:28 <oklopol> so, umm, i think i'm gonna sleep now ->
00:13:10 <psygnisf_> i need to actually SEE something be used to understand it.
00:13:25 <psygnisf_> once i see it, its trivial. but i need to see it used.
00:14:26 <olsner> just read arbitrary haskell programs, find instances of 'do', >>=, >> and return, find out what each instance does
00:14:51 <ehird> Play[RiemannSiegelZ[1000 If[t < 5, t, 10 - t]], {t, 0, 10}]
00:15:02 <psygnisf_> i need to see the actual process that occurs when they're used
00:15:19 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a rimshot.
00:15:48 <oerjan> psygnisf_: and the problem is, the process is different for each monad...
00:15:50 <olsner> *oh*, might be difficult since that process is inside the brain of another haskell coder...
00:16:05 <ehird> WHY IS MATHEMATICA SO SLOW
00:16:12 <psygnisf_> oerjan: im sure its different, overall, but theres got to be something i can get out of seeing it used.
00:16:47 <ehird> A good PlayRange could not be found since most of the samples are not \
00:16:47 <ehird> evaluating to machine-size real numbers.
00:17:12 <psygnisf_> honestly tho, i dont need if i need to use monads.
00:17:59 <AnMaster> "A rimshot is the sound produced by hitting the rim and the head of a drum at once, with a drum stick. Rimshots are usually played to produce a more accented note, and are typically played loudly. However, soft rim shots are possible."
00:18:00 <oerjan> psygnisf_: you considered passing a world state? iirc that's what clean and mercury do, as well as ghc internally
00:18:16 <oerjan> the problem is to make sure old world states are not reused
00:18:24 <ehird> it's used by bad comedians.
00:18:46 <ehird> the bad-dum-tish sound
00:18:46 <psygnisf_> what i mean is more that like.. the only stuff i might need a monad for is IO, i think
00:19:24 <psygnisf_> and for that i could just have some built in thing that evaluates IO in an appropriate fashion
00:19:47 <ehird> psygnisf_: http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:qlfzNPE8WqgJ:mauke.ath.cx/stuff/haskell/how-to-io.html+%22how+to+io%22+mauke&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de&client=firefox-a
00:19:50 <ehird> that explains how the IO monad works
00:20:00 <oerjan> psygnisf_: there is also the control streams used by the first haskell versions
00:20:39 <ehird> psygnisf_: just read it
00:20:40 <oerjan> the whole program takes a stream as argument and returns a stream
00:20:42 <ehird> oerjan: ssh you :P
00:21:11 <oerjan> but it's not a stream of characters, but of control commands
00:22:06 <oerjan> iirc that was hell, so they embedded that in a continuation framework
00:22:19 <oerjan> you could use continuations too
00:22:32 <oerjan> they're a bit like monads light
00:22:56 <psygnisf_> i dont even know if continuations are possible :D
00:23:12 <oerjan> is your language functional?
00:23:41 <oerjan> if it doesn't have first class functions then continuations will be hard, as will monads i think
00:23:57 <psygnisf_> it doesnt have _anything_ other than rewriting.
00:24:27 <psygnisf_> it might be possible to make rewrite rules first class. but theres no such thing as a function in this system
00:26:28 <oerjan> oh well then i assume you would have IO rewrite rules with a side effect
00:27:22 <oerjan> that's not necessarily a problem
00:27:30 <psygnisf_> it is lazy. and there are no real sideeffects other then that some tree evaluates down to some terminal
00:27:42 <psygnisf_> or possible evaluates down to a terminal.
00:37:29 <psygnisf_> the way im doing it right now, is that when outputting it forces applicative order evaluation
00:40:40 <oerjan> <psygnisf_> in a sense, bind is a flat-map
00:40:53 <oerjan> Scala calls it that, more or less
00:42:47 <oerjan> as in, the objects supporting the flatmap method are those that can use its for comprehension syntax iirc, and comprehension is equivalent to haskell's do notation
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01:16:34 <psygnisf_> so what else should i include as a primitive in my language, do you think?
01:21:23 <psygnisf_> im having massive problems preview songs from itunes :(
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11:32:17 <impomatic> Why are <> and [] reserved in Underload?
11:33:30 <oklopol> maybe because ais523 wanted to have the possibility to extend it?
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11:38:06 <oerjan> well neither implements that parts afair
11:52:31 <oerjan> as far as i make up completely on the spot
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13:54:42 <ehird> <impomatic> Why are <> and [] reserved in Underload?
13:54:45 <ehird> in practice, they're not
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14:17:31 <ehird> "MathML, a proprietary HTML-extension"
14:17:51 <ehird> That darn W3C and its proprietary HTML extensions!
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14:46:38 <ehird> <fizzie2> At least here ~ is a dead key too. All three of ^, ~ and ¨ are in a single completely corpse-like key.
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17:18:37 <ehird> oklopol: what lang were you talking about yesterday?
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17:26:38 <oklopol> it's my graph/tree language with j-inspired syntax
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17:28:16 <oklopol> the basic idea is graphs are a primitive datatype containing values in nodes (they can be boxed so you can put graphs in there too), and different kinds of searches and rewriting operations are primitive one-char functions
17:30:20 <oklopol> some technicalities are lambdas can have these short "tags", like <a b>k{a+b} would be a lambda with tag "k" that sums two things together, and the idea is higher-order functions (traversals and all that) use these as kinda type tags; and you can fold graphs and shit
17:30:45 <ehird> having functions and stuff is no fun
17:30:48 <ehird> you should make them just graphs
17:30:49 <oklopol> so programs are often just <lambda-with-some-tag>+ <graph-operation> <graph>
17:30:55 <oklopol> and the tags tell what the lambdas mean
17:31:02 <ehird> computation is done by inputting a graph that is isomorphic to another graph in a tc way
17:31:07 <ehird> and it prints out the isomorphee.
17:31:10 <ehird> that would be crazily pretty.
17:31:24 <oklopol> sure. but that's graphica's territory.
17:31:36 <ehird> graphica has non-graphs too, no?
17:32:01 <oklopol> but they are essentially just boxed graphs.
17:32:28 <ehird> oklopol: just let nodes be graphs, not strings
17:32:32 <ehird> and have a () graph
17:32:34 <ehird> then build numbers like
17:32:42 <oklopol> nope. boxing is actually a beautiful concept
17:32:56 <ehird> yeah, but _just_ having graphs, and the singleton ()
17:33:37 <oklopol> sure you can make it more explicit than graphica does, but that's eodermdrome's or something's territory, not graphicas.
17:34:41 <ehird> a whole language where you just have graphs and () would be pretty.
17:34:53 <ehird> and graphs isomorph (yes, that's a verb.) to others in a TC way
17:35:00 <ehird> also, input format is ascii art.
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18:03:37 <X-Scale> oklopol: I was reading about your graph language and imagining each vertex could countain a function and that its parameters and outputs would flow in and out of it edges. Like a living neural network.
18:07:12 <oklopol> X-Scale: you should be able to do something like that easily, yes
18:07:44 <oklopol> i could make that one of my test cases; i have a list of stuff i want to be solvable trivially with it
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19:39:11 <Slereah2> #xkcd isn't on freenode anymore?
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20:47:32 <Corun> Yes. I use X-Chat Aqua.
20:49:24 <psygnisf_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBpetDxIEMU&feature=channel
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21:09:01 <unrelatedguy> i didn't do anything, it was nowhere near free
21:10:49 <unrelatedguy> shit shit everything's breaking becaues there's no free space
21:14:01 <unrelatedguy> i'm writing an awful lot of data to disk per second
21:14:22 <unrelatedguy> i didn't, I think some application is filling it by mistake
21:16:13 <unrelatedguy> i set off a rather pointless, intensive computation before brbing
21:16:43 <oklopol> i recently filled a 300er, and managed to break it right after.
21:17:30 <alex89ru> ;D last time I filled a HD, it was a40gb HD with 2 operating systems on it^^
21:17:55 <unrelatedguy> anyone have a good way to search for disk-intensive folders on an HD?
21:18:36 <oklopol> been wanting something like that forever
21:21:35 <ehird> Methinks my problem be in there.
21:24:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: or, y'know, % du -h . >foobarbazquux
21:24:23 <ehird> bet I run out of disk space running du
21:24:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'll just use awk or sth
21:27:23 <ehird> think that's enough for now, mmmhm
21:30:19 <Ilari> And running out of disk space tends to really screw a filesystem...
21:31:32 <Ilari> (fragmentation-wise) and since one doesn't have a defragger... Ouch... :-/
21:32:33 <ehird> Well, I had 1GB free at the worst.
21:32:38 <ehird> But I don't know how much of that was -actually- usable.
21:32:43 <ehird> Filesystems are weird.
21:34:18 <ehird> oh, the based on venti one?
21:34:22 <ehird> I don't recall anything past, based on venti.
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21:41:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: so it's... venti
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22:00:53 <psygnisf_> hm. i dont know how transmission does it, but i know azureus will create empty files that, as far as your file system is concerned, are many gigs in size
22:01:11 <psygnisf_> so it reserves the total space for a download before its all done, so that it CAN all be done
22:01:15 <ehird> no torrent downloads save for mathematica recently
22:04:25 <psygnisf_> but transmission isnt free and this pains me
22:08:53 <ehird> transmission is free
22:09:13 <ehird> but transmission is
22:09:25 <ehird> http://www.transmissionbt.com/
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22:14:36 <GregorR> At 4AM I threw up substantially more than I'd eaten (by magic), then I drank a glass of water, then in two hours I threw up that. Water. Just water and stomach acid. It was really unpleasant.
22:15:44 <yoR> Yeah, its a cool thing, your body actually manages to produce more and more acid, just for you to throw up
22:16:34 <GregorR> When it's that thin it comes out your nose as well as your mouth.
22:16:38 <yoR> The wonderfull masochistic stomach...
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22:30:46 <oklopol> GregorR: sounds like fun, yes
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23:11:26 <Metcalf> I'm looking for Keymaker's programs in Underload, does anyone know the new URL?
23:11:44 <Metcalf> Used to be at http://koti.mbnet.fi/~yiap/programs/underload/ - not archived by Wayback :-/
23:12:19 <ehird> Metcalf: http://yiap.nfshost.com/
23:12:28 <ehird> http://yiap.nfshost.com/esoteric.php?f=underload
23:13:38 <ehird> oklopol: i have an idea for a way to make nopol just use < and >.
23:16:10 <ehird> oklopol: basically
23:16:12 <ehird> <: <. <::> <. <:> <::>>> <.:.:.>>
23:16:14 <ehird> < <> < >< < <> <>> < >< < <>> < <> <>>>> < >< <> >< <> >< >>
23:16:21 <ehird> if you want one of those actually
23:16:26 <ehird> evaluate an expr that evaluates to one of em.
23:16:30 <ehird> but srsly. it's pretttttyyyyyy
23:17:33 <ehird> oklopol: oklotalk should just use two characters
23:17:49 <ehird> @.@....@@@.@.@.@.@
23:18:29 <ehird> a J alike that automatically determines func implementation from the symbol you use.
23:18:38 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:18:45 <Metcalf> I don't think it's possible to conditionally execute code in Underload
23:18:56 <ehird> It is possible to do that, just hard.
23:19:01 <oklopol> Metcalf: it's possible, and it's pretty easy.
23:19:06 <ehird> okay,i t's probably easy
23:19:10 <ehird> I was just erring on the side of caution
23:19:20 <ehird> Metcalf: e.g. 99 bottles of beer
23:19:32 <ehird> (:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S
23:19:37 <oklopol> there's no direct, intuitively clear way to do it.
23:19:38 <ehird> stops when factorial calculated
23:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, where is "bottles of beer" in that?
23:20:08 <ehird> 23:19 <ehird> (:::::::):(:((^:()~((:)*~^)a~*^!!()~^))~*()~^^)~(^a(*~^)*a~*()~^!()~^)a~**^!!^S
23:20:09 <ehird> 23:19 <ehird> stops when factorial calculated
23:20:48 <Metcalf> What about if I wanted to loop from 99 down to 1, but do something special when it got to 50.
23:21:15 <oklopol> on every step check if 50 and do something different if it is?
23:21:59 <Metcalf> I just can't see how to check if it is 50, or how to skip some code if it is
23:22:17 <oklopol> you could subtract 50 and check if zero
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23:24:44 <oklopol> decrement, check if either if zero and if is, return the nonzero one.
23:25:17 <ehird> Metcalf: basically
23:25:20 <ehird> you want your code in ()s
23:25:24 <ehird> and you should : it before ^ing it
23:25:26 <ehird> so that you have a copy
23:25:36 <ehird> it's quite rewrite-language-esque
23:25:45 <ehird> you basically quine it
23:26:13 <oklopol> Metcalf: yeah what ehird said it's basically just lambda calculus with a stack, trivial.
23:26:45 <oklopol> Metcalf: but are you gonna continue, i kinda like programming underload in english :P
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23:38:05 <ehird> <fizzie> My first association to "carrier pigeons could be faster" was "unholy scramjet-equipped cyborg-pigeons, an abomination against nature" and not "normal pigeons carrying flash drives".
23:38:10 <ehird> I think this is so funny because of the comma before an
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00:19:50 <ehird> oklopol: fix le nopol bot
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00:34:45 <ehird> note to self: infinite lang like context free, do it
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01:35:47 <GregorR> I got an email with the subject line "Lesbians and their lovely sheeps"
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06:06:33 <Nortaneous> http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1233554313/l50
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10:35:23 <fizzie> fungot: You had disconnectized yourself again.
10:35:23 <fungot> fizzie: why does ( t do?!?
10:36:47 <fizzie> fungot: You mean to ask why it happened? According to a server notice thing, that was a hardware problem on orwell.freenode.net.
10:36:48 <fungot> fizzie: the ' cur' and ' cdr' gets the second field is called the closure of the variable `x', and similar
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11:15:14 <oklopol> http://www.wimp.com/goodtalk/
11:18:08 * ais523 tries to figure out why the wireless network here is portscanning them
11:19:28 <ais523> or something on 10.0.0.0/8, anyway
12:17:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, needs flash it seems, so what is it?
12:17:21 <AnMaster> is it worth booting the computer that does have flash and then enable X forwarding and so on?
12:25:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, so who is it? Obama? Since it says "public speaking" and so on.
12:29:29 * ais523 tries to imagine oklopol as US president
12:29:33 <oklopol> it's quite long, the beginning is the most interesting part.
12:29:38 <ais523> I really have no idea what that would be like...
12:30:02 <oklopol> if i was the president, i'd expoit it.
12:30:23 <oklopol> probably not if i'd worked to achieve it ofc.
12:30:23 <AnMaster> Cannot find codec for audio format 0x6134706D.
12:33:05 <fizzie> That's a strange fourcc code: 0x6134706D -> "a4pm", it's mp4a (mpeg-4 audio) backwards.
12:33:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, it works like funge fingerprints!?
12:33:59 <fizzie> Well, it's usually the right way around, but yes, they use ASCII characters in those codec IDs.
12:34:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that message was from mplayer
12:36:06 <fizzie> Dunno; the flv does play here with mplayer.
12:36:07 <fizzie> Opening audio decoder: [faad] AAC (MPEG2/4 Advanced Audio Coding)
12:36:07 <fizzie> AUDIO: 44100 Hz, 2 ch, s16le, 75.0 kbit/5.32% (ratio: 9376->176400)
12:36:07 <fizzie> Selected audio codec: [faad] afm: faad (FAAD AAC (MPEG-2/MPEG-4 Audio) decoder)
12:36:48 <fizzie> (Well, I don't have headphones or speakers, so I'm just guessing it actually does play the audio.)
12:40:03 <fizzie> The backwardsness might be just my interpretation; it could be that the mp4a fourcc actually has the numeric value of 0x6134706D, if those things are little-endian by nature.
12:40:38 <AnMaster> Requested audio codec family [faad] (afm=faad) not available.
12:41:02 <AnMaster> well I'm on a binary distro atm, so I can't easily fix it, like I could on gentoo
12:41:15 <AnMaster> (just change a useflag and recompile on gentoo)
12:58:23 <fizzie> "Due to many requests the paper submission deadline is postponed to 9 February 2009 (final date !!!)" Yet another confirmation of http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=998
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13:17:50 <oklopol> http://www.wimp.com/beafraid/ <<< conclusive evidence. i'm hitting the basement.
13:19:31 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'm catching this conclusive evidence with no sound.
13:20:21 <fizzie> That old guy with the beard does look rather credible, though.
13:21:19 <oklopol> yes, he's saying 2012 is the end of the world. according to multiple seers! :o
13:22:08 <fizzie> Well, if *multiple* seers say so...
13:22:39 <oklopol> the mayan calendar ends in 2012, at the end of the cycle
13:22:54 <oklopol> polarity changes and earth changes its course
13:22:55 <fizzie> Also this one guy has two monitors full of text; what's he saying? A title said "web-bot" at some point.
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13:23:14 <oklopol> it's some kinda prediction bot
13:23:26 <oklopol> that predicted the world would end in 2012 too
13:23:29 <fizzie> I'm not sure I see the link between extra hands and the end of the world, but it does remind me of a piece of music.
13:23:33 <oklopol> also it predicted the tsunami
13:24:38 <fizzie> Namely, ftp://ftp.byterapers.com/pub/extra/modules-humorouscollection/mp3/enemy_and_seadog-monta_sormee.mp3 -- but the lyrics are in Finnish, so the audience is limited.
13:25:21 <oklopol> i'll convince myself of the apocalypse first, wait a mo.
13:25:36 <fizzie> If it's 2012, there's a lot of time.
13:27:01 <oklopol> yeah i'll probably get my degree before that
13:27:55 <fizzie> Did you get convinced?
13:28:14 <oklopol> i should really be reading, but goddamn wimp got me addicted
13:28:49 <oklopol> also these prediction things and all kinda conspiracy theories are so goddamn convincing i can't stop watching them
13:34:59 <oklopol> fizzie: the music isn't really my style
13:35:18 <fizzie> Yes, well, I'm not sure it's anyone's style. But it's about extra appendages.
13:35:35 <oklopol> well yes, that's always a good topic for a song.
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13:38:48 <oklopol> interesting documentary btw, the web-bot thing is introduced twice.
13:38:57 <oklopol> "in case you walked in late..."
13:40:36 <fizzie> So, uh, how does it work?
13:41:08 <oklopol> seems it looks for keywords on the internet?
13:41:28 <oklopol> something about spider, aka agents, roaming the net
13:41:53 <fizzie> If I were told to do a prediction-bot for the end of the world, I'd first start to look for some means of destroying the world, just to get some suitable training data for the predictor.
13:41:57 <oklopol> there were pictures of million of words with words like terrorism and new york in different colors
13:42:28 <fizzie> Then I'd need a reasonably large population of worlds to destroy.
13:43:07 <fizzie> Well, I'm sure searching for "terrorism" works just as well.
13:43:35 <oklopol> anyway the point is the black hole in the center of our galaxy, the sun and the earth are lined up (?), and, you know, polarity of earth changes in hours, and everything goes boom
13:45:06 <fizzie> Uh, right. Well, I have to admit that two points (sun and earth) are quite often on the same line.
13:46:08 <oklopol> the black hole too you know gravitrons and neutrons have a bbq party and you kno
13:46:22 <oklopol> scary shit. i should go read my book now
13:47:46 <fizzie> Astronomy answer book has a (probably frequently asked) question of "Can the Earth, the Sun, and the center of the Galaxy be on one line?" at http://www.astro.uu.nl/~strous/AA/en/antwoorden/melkwegstelsels.html
13:48:39 <oklopol> what the fuck do they know, mayans were much more accurate.
13:48:57 <ais523> fizzie: I've never even considered that question before
13:48:58 <fizzie> Yeah, they probably haven't even counted on the polarity.
13:49:15 <fizzie> ais523: It is of vital importance; this is about the end of the world, after all.
13:49:36 <oklopol> ais523: yeah it seems 2012 is the *real* end of the world
13:49:50 <oklopol> i mean in what it was 2002 (?) even i wasn't convinced
13:50:02 <oklopol> but this is definitely for real
13:50:03 <ais523> personally, I think that if there was a magnetic field polarity flip, we'd be in trouble no matter which way the earth-sun line was pointing at the time
13:50:14 <ais523> also, the Mayans didn't even predict the end of the world in 2012
13:50:18 <ais523> just the end of an era
13:50:31 <ais523> IIRC, they predicted a mass extinction which wiped out most but not all of humankind
13:50:41 <oklopol> yeah but you know many after them have seen, independently, that there's also some you know extinction going on.
13:51:24 <oklopol> oh mass extinction, right, the documentary didn't actually say absolutely everyone would die
13:52:24 <ais523> IIRC, the Mayans believed there had been a few mass extinctions of similar natures before
13:52:38 <ais523> oh also, apparently everyone who doesn't survive turns into animals
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13:52:52 <oklopol> ais523: stop ruining this for me ;)
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13:55:53 * oklopol puts "buy dogfood for self" on calendar
14:04:11 <fizzie> Then you turn out to be a finicky cat, and absolutely refuse to eat it.
14:06:44 <fizzie> I'm having trouble finding a comprehensive end-of-the-world predictions table in Wikipedia. There's a lot of stuff around different pages, but I haven't noticed anyone collecting all that to a useful table.
14:07:32 <ehird> exit mundi is great
14:16:02 <ehird> although http://www.exitmundi.nl/singularity.htm is a rather one-sided view of the singularity
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14:40:49 <ehird> so who wants to hear about my silly esolang idea
14:41:00 <ais523> everyone in this channel, probably
14:41:21 <ehird> basically, every function either returns an immediate value without looping or recursing, or recurses infinitely
14:41:26 <ehird> the way you actually get real results
14:41:27 <ais523> <Jeremy Friesner> You do realize that if an actual reason was required, most of the Internet wouldn't exist?
14:41:38 <ehird> is that it just stops calling functions when it "doesn't make a big enough difference"
14:41:43 <ehird> the function to decide what that is is bindable at runtime
14:41:48 <ehird> inspired by: http://www.contextfreeart.org/
14:41:54 <ehird> in that, you just code infinite pictures
14:42:01 <ehird> and when they get smaller than a pixel, it just stops drawing that branch
14:42:13 <ais523> ehird: ah, works much like the iterative method of solving equations, then
14:42:44 <ehird> of course, it can mess up a lot if you change the threshold to always say "no, that's a small difference"
14:42:53 <ehird> ...in that every function you call will return 0
14:43:22 <ais523> how do you write the threshhold function itself?
14:43:34 <ais523> if it's written in the same lang, execution could be interesting, to say the least
14:43:39 <ehird> ais523: it runs the threshold function without any restrictions
14:43:50 <ehird> ais523: it would work without that too.
14:43:58 <ehird> comparisons change {3,4} to {True,False}
14:44:05 <ehird> which is definitely a major change
14:44:11 <ehird> unless you set it not to be, but that's your fault.
14:44:47 * ehird sees "Hampton the Hampster - Hampsterdance the Album" on iTunes, weeps for humanity
14:44:54 <ais523> I mean, how does it decide when the comparison function has stopped recursing?
14:45:05 <ais523> if it uses the comparison function, that means it needs to recurse to decide whether to recurse or not
14:45:07 <ehird> ais523: by calling the comparison function.
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14:46:55 <ehird> inaccurate computer floating point circuits come in handy
14:47:03 <ehird> in that you can actually do (x = 1+(2/x)) and get a result
14:47:15 <ehird> (because 2/x always gets you to 0 in finite time, and x+0 is obviously x)
14:47:51 <ais523> what about 4195835.0/3145727.0?
14:48:16 <ehird> is that a special floating point thingy?
14:48:34 <ehird> i'm dividing it repeatedly in a haskell console
14:48:36 <ehird> let's see how long this takes
14:48:48 <ehird> bah, I'm scripting this
14:48:50 <ais523> it's a calculation that the pentium 1 got wrong
14:48:55 <ais523> it returned 1.333 739 068 902 037 589 rather than 1.333 820 449 136 241 002
14:48:59 <ais523> not a big difference, but big enough
14:49:16 <ais523> Intel had huge trouble defending their reputation over that one
14:49:25 <ais523> sort of like 850*77.1, but more serious and harder to remember
14:49:43 <ehird> i kind of hate intel and x86.
14:49:54 <ehird> whereby kind of I mean I really hate, but can't figure out why
14:50:21 <ais523> (incidentally, that bug was due to a typo in a lookup table, pretty scary really as I would have hoped they'd be machine-generated...)
14:51:22 <ais523> tbh, though, I've messed up an autogenerated lookup table before
14:51:36 <ais523> I somehow managed to paste the first half of the table twice, caused chaos until I realised what had happened
15:05:25 * ais523 is very amused that the most commonly edited bits of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=INTERCAL are the hello worlds in non-INTERCAL languages
15:05:52 * ehird chops out the Python example because honestly
15:06:42 <ehird> proto: next to "Minor edit", there is a checkbox reading "Honestly, for god's sake"
15:06:49 <ehird> it disables the edit summary field, and cannot be reverted
15:06:52 <ehird> and does not appear in recent changes.
15:07:02 <ehird> also, vandals cannot use it.
15:07:30 <ais523> actually, there is one of those, but only admins can use it, and it's an URL parameter not a checkbox
15:07:36 <ais523> also, it only does reverts
15:07:42 <ais523> and it shows up in page history, although not recent changes
15:07:47 <ais523> everything shows up in page history
15:07:54 <ais523> bot rollback, to be precise
15:07:55 <ehird> 's not admin-only, is it?
15:07:57 <ais523> rollback shows up in recent changes
15:08:05 <ehird> Rollback is a separate flag, no?
15:08:09 <ehird> or is bot rollback admin-only
15:08:15 <ais523> but bot rollback's admin-only IIRC
15:08:21 <ehird> it sounds dangerous
15:08:22 <ais523> or was last I looked, anyway
15:08:33 <ehird> vandal botses reverting algos aren't very good...
15:08:39 <ais523> I've used it on Esolang a bit to clean up spam
15:08:41 <ais523> because it hides the edit you're reverting from recent changes too
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15:09:57 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Interpreter
15:09:59 <ehird> "Parrot - a virtual machine supporting some esoteric languages "
15:10:07 <ehird> I'm not sure I see the relevance.
15:10:13 <ehird> Who wants to add EsCo? :P
15:11:24 <ais523> how did esco become such a running joke, anyway?
15:11:32 <ais523> there are lots of other bad esolang interps out there...
15:11:45 <ehird> because it's so _overblown_
15:11:52 <ehird> and the authors were rabid in adding it to the wiki
15:11:57 <ehird> and re-adding it, and re-re-adding it, and...
15:12:06 * ais523 wonders if they spammed it to Wikipedia first, and got redirected to Esolang
15:12:52 <ehird> wow, last commit 2 weeks ago
15:12:56 <ehird> it's being developed...
15:13:29 <ehird> generally, things like that are abandoned posthaste
15:15:19 <ehird> wow, a site with a flash homepage
15:15:25 <ehird> i haven't seen one of them for forever
15:15:35 <ehird> also, tiny 10px text
15:15:38 <ais523> Wizards of the Coast had quite a few
15:15:43 <ais523> although IIRC they fixed that recently
15:15:56 <ais523> now, if you find a site with a Silverlight homepage, I'll be worried
15:16:02 <ais523> (unless it's one of Microsoft's, that doesn't count)
15:17:10 <fizzie> "I'm looking for a syntax-highlighting IDE as I've been tasked with maintaining INTERCAL code and am having trouble not making mistakes." I wonder how often that sort of thing happens.
15:17:35 <ais523> ehird: [[Talk:INTERCAL]]
15:17:35 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:INTERCAL
15:17:53 <ais523> I guessed it was a troll, but tried to give a serious answer anyway
15:18:12 <fizzie> Was that [[link]] supposed to automagically turn into a real URL? If so, it didn't happen.
15:18:38 <ais523> fizzie: I forgot the w: prefix
15:18:40 <fizzie> Well, even if it wasn't supposed to happen, it didn't.
15:18:43 <ehird> According to a recent blog post, Apple discovered that Microsoft had planted a spy in their organisation, and deliberately leaked a copy of obsolete System 7 source code, machine-translated to INTERCAL, claiming it was the latest build of OS X 10.2. Bill Gates initially fell for the trick and seriously told his programmers to incorporate the INTERCAL code into Windows Vista. JIP | Talk 05:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
15:18:45 <ehird> Due to INTERCAL's limited I/O capabilities, this seems unlikely. I can't imagine anyone writing an OS in INTERCAL-72, and neither C-INTERCAL or CLC-INTERCAL can do graphics as far as I know, so presumably this is a new secret flavour of INTERCAL? --ais523 09:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
15:18:49 <ehird> Yes, it seems pretty clear that the blog was meant to be a joke. This is probably why blogs aren't considered reliable sources; I'd recommend not putting this information in the article. --ais523 12:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
15:18:53 <ehird> ais523: when did you get a sense of humour?
15:18:55 <ehird> post march 2007, evidently
15:19:14 <ais523> ehird: no, I just think that AnMaster-style responses to stupid questions are much funnier than ehird-style responses
15:19:20 <ais523> especially where INTERCAL is concerned
15:19:38 <ehird> well, my responses aren't responses
15:19:41 <ehird> they're pointers from elsewhere
15:19:53 <ehird> plus, it wasn't a stupid question, it was a joke
15:20:06 <ais523> well, I didn't want anyone to copy the information into the article
15:20:41 <ais523> and some jokes are only funny if the other person tries not to get them
15:20:47 <ais523> that particular blog post was not funny at all, really
15:21:16 <ehird> that blog post was written by the guy who wrote that intercal tutorial
15:21:27 <ehird> white on black colour scheme, on blogspot, that's all i remember
15:21:36 <ais523> he reached the point of trying to make a loop, and gave up, I think
15:21:45 <ehird> well, he wrote some parts of it
15:22:11 * ais523 has the URL memorised...
15:22:42 <ais523> <Clinton Forbes> Are you an INTERCAL guru? Please feel free to post the solution as a comment. (It will sure save me from figuring it out.)
15:22:48 <ehird> i pledge to kill anyone who ever makes another foo.bar.bz domain pun
15:22:52 <ehird> i cannot freaking remember them
15:23:02 <ais523> http://divingintointercal.blogspot.com/ anyway
15:25:05 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Site_support
15:25:41 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Velato
15:25:54 <ehird> http://www.rottytooth.com/velatotracks/print_h_5.mid
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15:33:12 <ehird> http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=836675
15:33:17 <ehird> la la la woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo britain.
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16:12:30 <ehird> grrr. need. ordered. directory. tree.
16:12:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
16:16:13 <ehird> as in, a regular unix directory
16:16:18 <ehird> files inside are ordered
16:16:49 <ais523> ehird: you could use the init.d trick
16:16:53 <ais523> although that's a ridiculous hack
16:17:06 <ehird> I don't want number cruft on my filenames
16:18:33 <ehird> also: no, file create time doesn't count, because it's brittle
16:18:48 <ehird> and you can't sort by it in a lot of UIs
16:25:42 <ehird> let's see if I can't work out coadjute
16:26:05 <ehird> rule :: String -> [String] -> ([Source] -> Target -> IO ()) -> [SingleDatum] -> Coadjute ()
16:26:05 <ehird> A rule for building targets individually.
16:26:08 <ehird> thanks that is really helpful
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16:49:33 <ehird> one solution for ordered directory trees:
16:49:39 <ehird> have it unordered, but with a manual index of files
16:49:41 <ehird> filename\nfilename
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17:01:04 <ehird> Hmm. In a YYYY-MM-DD date, what are the hyphens? Real hyphens? En dashes? Em dashes? Avocados?
17:01:47 <ais523> I've never seen them as anything but hyphens
17:01:53 <ais523> that doesn't mean hyphens are right, though
17:02:09 <ehird> well, - is often used as an endash
17:02:41 <ais523> it may be a digit dash
17:02:44 <ais523> or whatever it's called
17:02:49 <ais523> the one that's as wide as a 0
17:03:16 <ehird> "The figure dash is used when a dash must be used within numbers, for example with telephone numbers: 867‒5309. "
17:04:12 <ehird> Caring about these things makes my life a lot more stressful :P
17:04:23 <ais523> a lot more eso, though
17:04:36 <ehird> Being correct is eso now?
17:05:19 <ehird> Wonder if I can get Pandoc to put a hair space between emdashes.
17:05:26 <ais523> being finicky correct beyond reason, yes
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17:05:33 <ehird> I'm such a stickler.
17:05:35 <ais523> why do you think I want to distribute C-INTERCAL in PAX format?
17:06:24 <ehird> I’d type using “smart quotes” (such a stupid name) and other such things — like I am in this sentence — on IRC all the time, if it weren’t so hard on the fingers.
17:08:53 <ehird> http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/README.html#header-identifiers-in-html
17:08:58 <ehird> Hmph, I'll have to postprocess pandoc output.
17:09:03 <ehird> dogs--in-my-house should be dogs-in-my-house.
17:11:24 <ehird> I wonder whether I should care about whether IE chokes and dies on my page.
17:12:20 <ehird> Oh bloody hell, HTML5 obligates dates to use -.
17:12:51 <ais523> haven't they heard of microformats?
17:13:01 <ehird> Yes, the teams overlap heavily.
17:13:05 <ehird> But it's the <date> element semantics.
17:13:56 <ehird> I'm fine with obligation, I just dislike incorrect obligation :P
17:15:45 <ehird> I think theyr emoved the date element
17:17:28 <ehird> <jgraham> ehird: Either complain to Hixie and get it fixed or worry less about typography :)
17:17:34 <ehird> Bu-bu-bu-bu I COULDN'T POSSIBLY
17:18:27 <ais523> complain to Hixie, go on
17:18:45 <ehird> yeah, I'm going to
17:18:58 <ehird> ("complain to hixie" evaluates to "email the whatwg mailing list", though)
17:19:18 <ehird> I don't think they'll -drop- support for the hyphen :-P
17:19:30 <ehird> Also, -hyphens- as emphasis is very nice, I suggest you try it.
17:19:43 <ais523> -Why use them for emphasis?-
17:19:50 <ais523> -Why not use them to scare everyone?-
17:20:02 <ehird> -My name is not Baron von Skippy.-
17:20:13 <ais523> -But everyone loves the Baron.-
17:20:21 <ehird> -I think he'll sue you if you keep that up.-
17:30:41 <ehird> Okay, let's see...
17:31:05 <ehird> The base size is 16px, the line height is 1.5, so the basic vertical measure is 16 x 1.5 = 24px
17:35:09 <ehird> you're meant to do
17:35:22 <ehird> <time datetime="2009-02-02">THINE SECOND DAY OF THINE etc etc</time>
17:52:07 <ais523> <time datetime="2009-02-02">2009‒02‒09</time>
17:52:19 <ais523> the hyphens in the datetime element are so that it can be parsed easily, ASCII's good for that
17:54:17 <ehird> comex: it's not xml
17:54:40 <ais523> SGML and XML should stop looking so similar to each other
17:54:50 <ais523> incidentally, is HTML5 based on SGML? Or does it have its own parser?
17:54:57 <ehird> own parsing rules, yes
18:04:25 <ehird> Shit, I have some typographical calculations slightly out of line and it's messing up the page.
18:05:49 <ehird> ah, it's in the headers
18:05:59 <ehird> margin-top: 0.857em;
18:06:00 <ehird> margin-bottom: 2.57em;
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18:29:54 <ehird> <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, It would appear one of our client servers just dropped off the face of the planet. We're looking into the issue and should hopefully have it back soon. Affected users just over 2,000. Apologies for the inconvenience and have a good day.
18:29:58 <ehird> Freenode are so reliable.
18:30:13 <fizzie> Maybe a tiny black hole struck them.
18:31:06 <Slereah2> Hey, it's not my fault, I didn't even work on the LHC yet!
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18:48:06 <comex> http://simple-pc-help.com/support/runtime_autogenerated%20bull-honky.html
18:48:25 <comex> I've seen autogenerated crap on the internet but that takes the cake
18:50:19 <comex> note the comments section
18:50:36 <comex> also go to the homepage, where there are suspiciously bayes-like news stories
18:51:03 <ehird> http://simple-pc-help.com/support/runtime_autogenerated%20erectile-disfunction.html
18:51:05 <comex> well, more like scraped from other sites
18:51:19 <ehird> http://simple-pc-help.com/support/runtime_erectile-disfunction.html
18:51:34 <ehird> How to Repair Error Code Erectile Disfunction
18:52:06 <ehird> thanks bro!!! finally this stupid error Erectile Dysfunction Stopped popping UP
18:53:27 <comex> http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:IZWftMwjmOUJ:answers.yahoo.com/question/index%3Fqid%3D20081016232027AAr01Oc+simple-pc-help.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a
18:53:56 <ehird> I don't know about the website but I use RegCure and it's very good and hasn't broken our computer. Our computer is much quicker and we run RegCure once a week.
18:58:23 <comex> I'm going to run it
18:58:30 <comex> I love virtualbox snapshots...
18:59:24 <ehird> haskell is so pretty.
19:00:17 <FireFly> http://simple-pc-help.com/support/runtime_Windows.html
19:00:28 <FireFly> "Do You Have Problems with Windows?"
19:01:14 <ehird> You don't have permission to access /support/runtime_<script>alert("hi mom")</script>.html on this server.
19:01:45 <comex> you can do other html though
19:02:30 <comex> it doesn't actually work
19:02:52 <comex> I attempted clicking all the links on IE, no download boxes
19:03:12 <ehird> 19:03 <ehird> what type should I use for a date?
19:03:12 <ehird> 19:03 <Olathe> ehird: NiceRestaurant
19:03:13 <ehird> 19:03 <evv> protection
19:03:19 <ehird> #haskell: Oh Ho Ho That Obvious Joke Is So Amusing.
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19:07:07 <FireFly> Do You Have Problems with >
19:07:07 <FireFly> Problem: Runtime Error >critical sign of an unstable system that is typically caused by improper maintenance of the computer.
19:07:20 <FireFly> Heh, injecting HTML comments <3
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19:24:06 <oklopol> ehird: your language sounds an awful lot like ef.
19:26:08 <oklopol> ehird: in that you can actually do (x = 1+(2/x)) and get a result <<< what result would it be?
19:26:55 <ehird> (you don't always get such a nice answer, but that's how it is with floating point.)
19:36:13 <oklopol> trying to find in the logs when i was teaching it to you
19:36:20 <oklopol> you came up with that exact same example
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19:38:48 <oklopol> blah, i'd have to import re, and that's kinda cheating.
19:39:39 <oklopol> anyway, the point is you'd think you'd see the similarity
19:40:45 <oklopol> but yeah ef is not exatly the same, x=1+2/x doesn't set x to 2, but the idea is the same
19:40:48 <ehird> I think I saw ef in the logs when I thought of it
19:40:53 <ehird> so it's a derivation of that idea
19:42:36 <oklopol> so umm why does x=1+2/x set x to 2? setting variables is iterated until the process converges?
19:42:50 <ehird> oklopol: well, that's just haskell-style
19:42:55 <ehird> ie. x=x is a black hole
19:43:19 <ehird> eventually you get to x+0
19:45:47 <oklopol> so the convergence stuff revolves around "=", and works by solving the equations
19:46:18 <oklopol> by taking the fixed-point, so not perfectly, but that's the way to get fixed-points?
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19:47:00 <oklopol> i mean ef does it by taking the fixed-point of everything, which makes much less sense, so they would indeed be way different.
19:48:55 <oklopol> how come you ain't an answer mister ehird :o
19:49:17 <ehird> but I didn't read eso
19:49:20 <ehird> oklopol> so the convergence stuff revolves around "=", and works by solving the equations
19:49:22 <ehird> this isn't actual syntax
19:49:26 <ehird> this is just hypothetically
19:50:16 <oklopol> well my point is, do you do fixed-point stuff by setting up equations that are solved by taking the fixed-point?
19:50:29 <oklopol> or are there other interesting things you may do
19:50:51 <ehird> oklopol: well, basically you can't recurse or anything in any other way than using fix on a value
19:50:55 <ehird> (you can't do fact = fix \me -> ...)
19:51:04 <ehird> fact = \n -> fix (\result -> ...)
19:51:16 <ehird> so you basically have to work out htf to get that working.
19:51:33 <ehird> it stops the infinite loop when the expression Wouldn't Change Enough (TM)
19:54:00 <oklopol> now that does sound exactly like ef again
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19:55:05 <oklopol> gotta go read my book, kinda slept and idled all day
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23:15:31 <ehird> hmm, our topic still isn't descriptive
23:15:49 -!- ehird has set topic: Esoteric programming languages. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page..
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23:18:22 <oerjan> i think oklopol likes his topic links to be clickable.
23:19:56 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't use an irc client from the 50's.
23:20:15 <ehird> yeah those are clickable.
23:20:56 <oerjan> i guess they might be.
23:21:24 <oerjan> maybe i should start making URLs ending in . to irritate people, then.
23:21:30 <ehird> whoppix: what brings you here?
23:21:33 <ehird> oh, you're in #haskell.
23:21:37 <ehird> must have been when I mentioned this place
23:21:54 <whoppix> ehird, someone mentioned the channel name, and I have to admit, I'm a rather curios kind of person. :)
23:22:08 <ehird> I think you could call all of us "curious" :-P
23:22:36 <whoppix> I suppose all programmers need to be, at some level.
23:22:47 <ehird> So, this is a channel about esolangs. You might have heard of some: Brainfuck, INTERCAL, Unlambda, Underload, Thue, ...
23:23:23 <whoppix> yes, I've once written a small brainfuck interpreter in perl, and had a look at some other esoteric languages.
23:24:04 <whoppix> Never heard about either of the last ones, you mentioned, though.
23:24:35 <oerjan> ^ul ((Welcome to underload! )S:^):^
23:24:35 <fungot> Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to underload! Welcome to under ...too much output!
23:24:45 <ehird> whoppix: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload
23:24:48 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue
23:25:11 <whoppix> Looking at Unlambda right now.
23:25:41 <ehird> whoppix: fungot here's written in Befunge-98, and interprets Brainfuck and Underload: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
23:25:41 <fungot> ehird: what are you trying to do?'
23:25:49 <ehird> and babbles when you mention their name. fungot!
23:25:50 <fungot> ehird: no one said the jobs had to be a patchwork fnord of features
23:25:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
23:26:41 <whoppix> Well, I guess thats an inertial property of most esoteric languages.
23:27:20 <lament> befunge is actually very serious
23:27:47 <ehird> befunge-93, not really.
23:28:51 <whoppix> I wonder if its easy to parallize befunge code.
23:29:08 <ehird> It has a library for multiple instruction pointers.
23:29:11 <ehird> You just fork them off.
23:29:46 <oklopol> welll it was kinda important don't you think
23:32:16 <Deewiant> ehird: multiple IPs are even in the core, no library needed
23:32:42 <Deewiant> but running them truly parallel isn't in the core
23:32:49 <ehird> whoppix: instruction pointers
23:33:42 <Deewiant> I don't know if any extension yet even has parallel execution
23:33:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster was working on something related but I don't know if he finished anything
23:36:02 <whoppix> I suppose if it should be usefull, you'd need stuff like mutexes and/or semaphores
23:39:27 <ehird> Asztal: STM is awesome, even though I haven't used it.
23:42:11 <lament> (why? cause it's too slow)
23:42:17 <Asztal> retrying transactions might prove a little more difficult than in a pure language like haskell... maybe TRDS could help!
23:42:24 <lament> (that's why nobody is using it)
23:42:25 <ehird> speed is irrelevant most of the time, lament :P
23:42:29 <ehird> also, haskellites use it.
23:42:41 <lament> and haskellites use it obviously
23:42:57 <lament> SPJ can fart into a source file and put it on Hackage and people will use it
23:43:04 <ehird> is this another lament Haskell Sucks And I Hate It rant
23:43:15 <Asztal> do you funroll all your loops in befunge?
23:43:50 <whoppix> lament, wikipedia tells me it could in future be hardware-supported
23:44:28 <whoppix> I suppose that would negate the speed deficit
23:44:45 <ehird> that sounds quite unlikely in mainstream hardware
23:45:35 <lament> whoppix: yes. Just like strong AI will be in the future hardware-supported
23:46:01 <ehird> ... artificial intelligence ...
23:46:50 <whoppix> If thats what he means by AI, I can't make sense of that sentence.
23:46:58 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_AI
23:48:04 <whoppix> ah. Well, wonders might happen, parallelization is hard as-is.
23:48:58 <whoppix> I wish everyone a pleasant localtime.
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08:04:57 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster was working on something related but I don't know if he finished anything <-- mostly finished in efunge
08:05:39 <AnMaster> <whoppix> I suppose if it should be usefull, you'd need stuff like mutexes and/or semaphores <-- books, which you gain exclusive access to from the library
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09:13:35 <AnMaster> gah, can't talk about IWC since it isn't out yet
09:14:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, actually I will be out of town when it is released
09:15:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, ? I'm leaving in about 20 minutes and will then be back around 16:30 or so I suspect
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13:43:40 <AnMaster> um anyone know what the endianness is of floating point? Same as system endianness for integers or fixed? Assuming IEEE 754 that is.
13:44:33 <AnMaster> (basically I'm wondering what would happen if I write out a binary float or double to a file and load it on a system with different endianness
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13:56:39 <ehird> AnMaster: uh, system defined.
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13:58:48 <fizzie> But with the added extra confusion factor which comes from the fact that on a particular system, integers can be little-endian while floats are big-endian.
13:59:01 <fizzie> (Off to a lecture-thing right now.)
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19:30:16 <ehird> he's been here a couple days
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20:00:11 <ehird> http://www.imaginaryrobots.net/projects/funge/code/funged.3f
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20:01:22 <ehird> the guy who owns that site
20:01:54 <ais523> wow, trefunge is so much harder to read than befunge
20:01:59 <ais523> because of layer transitions
20:02:33 <ais523> next question: what does it do?
20:02:38 <ehird> edits trefunge code
20:02:47 <ais523> a trefunge editor, written in trefunge
20:03:21 <lament> you just need a 3d terminal?
20:03:56 <ehird> i think it displays side by side or sth
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20:08:53 <ehird> PiFunge handprint: 32986AFB
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20:16:08 <Zetro> new... hm.. have been here before :)
20:16:40 <ehird> After 2008-10-30 then :)
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10:07:32 <impomatic> I've implemented an interpreter for Underload in Redcode, http://tr.im/eil7
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11:22:27 <whoppix> impomatic, what would be the default policy for an underload interpreter if the execution pointer encounters any letter that is not valid underload?
11:24:19 <fizzie> ^ul (Our bots tend to just complain, like this:)S@
11:24:20 <fungot> Our bots tend to just complain, like this: ...bad insn!
11:26:23 <fizzie> That underload-in-brainfuck interpreter mostly ignores invalid input, I think.
11:27:15 <whoppix> fizzie, I can't make sense of the "^ul" at the beginning, the doc tells me that ^ removes the first element from the stack and executes it, but at the beginning, there are no elements at the stack?
11:27:36 <fizzie> It's just the bot-command to evaluate underload.
11:27:37 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
11:28:33 <whoppix> That language looks fun, I think ill write a perl interpreter for it.
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12:07:53 <impomatic> whoppix: fizzie: the program terminates when it reaches the invalid input
12:08:14 <whoppix> hm, no form of comments either?
12:08:34 <impomatic> And it expects the program to be valid. It will do a swap on an empty stack
12:10:20 <impomatic> I'm looking for another language to implement
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16:21:06 * ehird embarks on Bloody Crazy Project
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16:27:45 <ehird> i've started a Bloody Crazy Projec.
16:28:43 <oerjan> is this a Bloody Crazy Project Language (BCPL)?
16:43:47 <ehird> oerjan: it's an instance of an existing Bloody Crazy Project Idea, but with a twist.
16:44:35 <ehird> Twisted Crazy Project
16:45:06 <whoppix> hooray for inventing new meanings to commonly known idioms! :)
16:45:56 <ehird> oerjan: no guesses, ey/
16:46:40 * oerjan finds the idea of searching infinite spaces appalling
16:47:27 <ehird> the existing Bloody Crazy Project Idea: write an OS in Haskell. the Twist: don't write the hooks GHC runtime uses in C or asm, write as much as possible in Haskell. no C allowed, maybe a smidgen of asm for driver stuff that you really can't do outside of asm (e.g. in C you have to use inline asm :-P)
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16:49:27 <oerjan> clearly an Impossible Project
16:49:56 <ehird> FireFly: i think that was his joke
16:49:57 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
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16:50:42 <ktne> anyone here knows how static function closures are implemented?
16:51:03 <ktne> a reference from an inner function to a local variable in the outer function
16:51:22 <ehird> umm, how are they not? :-)
16:51:32 <ehird> i mean, what's the issue?
16:51:41 <ktne> my question is how the function frame is allocated
16:51:53 <ktne> because it seems to me that you can't allocate it on the stack
16:52:09 <ktne> because on the stack it would be automatically destroyed when you return from the outer function
16:52:13 <oerjan> indeed, you need a pointer in the inner function frame to the outer one
16:52:18 <ehird> they have to go onto the heap
16:52:22 <ehird> and be garbage collected
16:52:42 <oerjan> unless the variable is immutable, then you can just copy
16:52:46 <ktne> so if the language is static, then you can determine whenever it should go on the stack or on the heap
16:52:57 <ktne> and if the language is dynamic then it has to go on the heap always?
16:53:56 <oerjan> depends how dynamic it is?
16:54:13 <ehird> you can never make it go on the stack if it outlives its parent
16:54:28 <ehird> foo = lambda(x){ lambda(y){ return x += y } }
16:54:32 <ktne> but sounds very inefficient
16:54:37 <ehird> you really don't have a choice there, it goes on the heap
16:54:41 <oerjan> if it's so dynamic you cannot prove anything about function environments, then i guess so...
16:54:43 <ehird> but it is a penalty, yes
16:54:52 <ktne> ehird: wouldn't the heap explode if you do recursion?
16:55:00 <ehird> garbage collection, yo
16:55:09 <ktne> yes but that would be quite heavy
16:55:12 <ehird> your goal of c speed is misguided, however. Yes, all these nice features come at a cost. Programmer time > cpu time
16:55:13 <ktne> quite a lot of GC
16:55:18 <ehird> get an efficient GC
16:55:24 <ehird> like, as I mentioned last time, cheney on the mta
16:55:34 <ktne> cheney on the mta?
16:56:09 <ehird> cheney on the mta solves both tail recursion, gc and continuations efficiently
16:56:27 <ehird> in that it piles up memory, then just jumps off a cliff semi-efficiently to clean it all out every now and then
16:56:30 <ktne> is it fully described on the paper http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html ?
16:56:47 <ehird> yep, for a practical implementation see Chicken Scheme
16:56:54 <ehird> @ http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/
16:56:59 <ktne> i hope the source is readable :)
16:57:07 <ehird> it's written in scheme
16:57:15 <ehird> so, if you know scheme and C :-P
16:57:28 <ehird> should be comprehensible regardless of scheme knowledge to a degree though
16:57:51 <ktne> hmm, does it use any host scheme-specific functionality?
16:57:59 <ktne> like the host continuation or so?
16:58:09 <ktne> or it's implemented from scratch on top of the host scheme?
16:58:22 <ehird> Uh, I think it depends on Chicken...
16:58:37 <ehird> the C code only depends on the chicken runtime library, written in C
16:58:46 <ehird> i.e., the compiled code has no scheme left
16:58:49 <ktne> that is ok then
16:58:52 <ehird> just the compiled code, and the C/Asm chicken runtime lib
16:59:12 <ehird> but the compiler itself, is written in Scheme + Chicken's extensions
16:59:21 <ehird> while since I used it
17:00:07 <ktne> ok, thanks for the help :)
17:01:43 <ehird> ktne: i'm working on a "very high level language does non-regular-desktop-app stuff project too"
17:01:48 <ehird> [which I just told oerjan about]
17:02:03 <ehird> i think I can get by without making my own implementation, though
17:22:28 <ktne> but if you are not the one to implement it, then who will? :)
17:23:14 <ehird> ktne: I'm using an existing implementation
17:23:18 <ehird> and bending it to my evil bidding.
17:23:26 <ehird> (trying to write an OS)
17:23:31 <ktne> what are you using as base implementation?
17:23:56 <ehird> Well, I think you're tired of hearing from last time... but I'm attempting to write it in Haskell :-) With the minimum amount of asm stubs for e.g. the grub header...
17:24:20 <ehird> There are Haskell OSes already, but they use quite a bit of C/asm to bootstrap the implementation; I think I can do it within the constraints of Haskell without stepping too far out
17:24:32 <ktne> i never heard of an OS written in haskell before :)
17:24:53 <ehird> there's three: House, Kinetic and hOp
17:24:56 <ehird> none of which are very active
17:25:03 <ehird> http://programatica.cs.pdx.edu/House/
17:25:09 <ehird> http://intoverflow.wordpress.com/kinetic/
17:25:26 -!- impomatic has quit ("infinite loops @ http://tr.im/33xe :-)").
17:25:28 <ehird> [no link to hop, it's dead, House is a descendent of it]
17:26:07 <ehird> ktne: each do a different "evil" -
17:26:18 <ehird> hOp and House fork the GHC compiler to not depend on a runtime system
17:26:27 <ehird> kinetic links in stub functions that the GHC runtime system uses written in C & asm
17:26:37 -!- alex89ru has joined.
17:26:44 <ehird> I'm going to try to: link in stub functions that the GHC rts uses ... written in _haskell_, as much as possible, with asm bits
17:26:50 <ehird> alex89ru: hi, I'm discussing my crazy project.
17:27:05 <ktne> but why do that?
17:27:08 <ktne> is there a reason?
17:27:17 <ktne> you want to avoid linking C?
17:27:39 <ehird> ktne: sure -- to write an OS that has all the advantages of being written in haskell, without having to "fall back" on C
17:27:44 <ehird> i.e., having it as standalone as possible
17:27:51 <ehird> practical purpose, well, no :)
17:29:27 <ehird> the problem is, of course, that the functions have to depend only on the runtime system functions that don't cause a circular dependency.
17:29:41 <ehird> and I have to get them assigned to the right symbols in the object code.
17:31:43 <ktne> is that even possible?
17:31:56 <ehird> probably not, has that ever stopped this channel?
17:37:46 <ehird> what's needed is inline asm in haskell. then, technically, it'd be 100% haskell ;-D
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17:44:14 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I suspect you would much more asm than you would need if the OS was in C
17:44:33 <ehird> the GHC runtime is heavy, yes
17:44:48 <ehird> the basic idea is that you write just enough of the functions it uses to make it work
17:44:59 <ehird> the extension to that idea is to write as much as possible of those in haskell itself
17:45:06 <ehird> (that's the Really Hard part)
17:45:14 <ehird> AnMaster: but the grub stuff is still the same
17:45:20 <ehird> you just call the main function as usual
17:45:30 <ehird> (as, of course, ghc compiles to binaries that you can actually run...)
17:47:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, in C you could do something like *(memory_mapped_registers + 0x21) = 'a';
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17:47:29 <AnMaster> somehow I doubt it would be as easy in haskell
17:47:44 <AnMaster> probably would involve at least a monad, and some ASM
17:47:55 <ehird> AnMaster: your program is in the IO monad, of course
17:48:05 <AnMaster> what about libc function deps?
17:48:14 <AnMaster> does compiled haskell program use stuff like malloc()?
17:48:17 <ehird> but yes, you would need some ASM to import via the FFI for memory access and things like ports
17:48:26 <ehird> AnMaster: yep. as I said:
17:48:26 <ehird> 17:44 <ehird> the GHC runtime is heavy, yes
17:48:27 <ehird> 17:45 <ehird> the basic idea is that you write just enough of the functions it uses to make it work
17:48:30 <ehird> 17:45 <ehird> the extension to that idea is to write as much as possible of those in haskell itself
17:48:37 <ehird> it's been done, but with them in C/asm
17:48:41 <AnMaster> so you implement malloc() for the kernel in C?
17:48:43 <ehird> the idea is basically to minimize that
17:49:05 <AnMaster> because basically malloc() would mean the whole memory mangement ends up in C then
17:49:07 <ehird> you MIGHT be able to do that in haskell, if you're very very carefully only to use strict, unboxed values
17:49:27 <AnMaster> ghc needs a -ffreestanding then ;P
17:49:37 <AnMaster> or -ffree-standing or whatever it is
17:49:43 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think it's possible to do haskell completely freestanding
17:49:51 <ehird> it's too high level
17:50:05 <AnMaster> well you would have to restrict some features, like you do a C++ kernel
17:50:24 <ehird> AnMaster: you'd be writing in a fiddly dialect of a painful subset of C
17:50:37 <ehird> (with a nazi type checker)
17:52:08 <ehird> Nobody said it'd be easy :-)
17:52:26 <ehird> but a type-safe operating system is pretty awesome.
17:52:27 <AnMaster> basically you use some options to tell g++ that you want free-standing (except there is no -ffree-standing for C++, so it is like -fno-builtins -fno-stdlib or something) and then some magical routines like __cxx_abstract________whatever___
17:52:42 <AnMaster> iirc, I read about it on osdev
17:53:07 <ehird> I prefer Haskell >:)
17:53:24 <AnMaster> well yeah but then you are in this channel too
17:53:31 <ehird> haskell is pretty esoteric
17:53:54 <ehird> also, so I don't get this in 5 years when it finally runs ghc: Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell so I put a GHC in yo GHC so you can typecheck while you typecheck
17:56:00 <impomatic> Hmmm... there's probably more Haskell on reddit than any other language!
17:57:10 <ehird> impomatic: Indeed, it's quite popular over there. Was even more so in 2007 - early 2008 before the enterprisey folks arrived.
17:58:01 <AnMaster> ehird, prediction: in a few years (maybe 5 or so) reddit will be no better than slashdot
17:58:17 <ktne> what if the inner function makes a by-value reference to the variable in the other function?
17:58:28 <ehird> /r/programming's quality of discourse is probably worse than slashdot's, AnMaster.
17:58:32 <AnMaster> other prediction: you will have gone to some other site, maybe writtit
17:58:47 <ktne> would that be an acceptable compromise? that would not require heap allocation, just normal stack
17:58:52 <ehird> I'm going back to usenet. Kids, lawn, damn, get off thereof.
17:58:55 <ehird> ktne: that kind of defeats the point.
17:59:01 <AnMaster> (I always read reddit as "readit")
17:59:12 <ehird> it's impure from a conceptual standpoint and not useful practically
17:59:17 <ehird> AnMaster: that's where the name comes from.
17:59:27 <ehird> it's past-tense read, though
17:59:43 <ktne> ehird: about about defining using a special keyword?
17:59:58 <ktne> i mean, defining all local variables to be allocated on stack
18:00:03 <ehird> ktne: congratulations, you're a PHP developer now
18:00:06 <oerjan> ktne: that's what i said earlier about immutable values. iirc ocaml uses that.
18:00:11 <ehird> (that's what they did for their PHP6 closure implementation, it's rather awful)
18:00:16 <AnMaster> ehird, by the way, wouldn't it be interesting to analyse how much of irc is in present, future and past tense, and make some shiny graph?
18:00:20 <ehird> oerjan: well yeah, the problem goes away with mutable values
18:00:25 <AnMaster> say this channel, year by year
18:00:27 <ktne> i mean, mark local variables to be allocated on the heap
18:00:32 <ktne> using a special keyword
18:00:33 <oerjan> since ML has no mutable variables, only heap references
18:00:47 <ktne> like "heap i = 0; function () { i=3};"
18:00:48 <AnMaster> to see if there is more past after holidays or such
18:00:50 <ktne> that would be mutable
18:01:18 <ktne> what is hard to analyse?
18:01:30 <AnMaster> no idea how to do it, apart from some very extensive word list, and I suspect that is far from a good solution
18:01:35 <AnMaster> ktne, <AnMaster> ehird, by the way, wouldn't it be interesting to analyse how much of irc is in present, future and past tense, and make some shiny graph?
18:01:38 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> say this channel, year by year
18:01:57 <ehird> AnMaster: stemming, yo.
18:01:59 <ktne> ehird: so what about my new proposal?
18:02:06 <AnMaster> consider stuff like "red", that could be "I red that book yesterday" as well as "that book is red"
18:02:07 <ehird> ktne: it's exactly what PHP did, and it's awful.
18:02:13 <ehird> AnMaster: no, because that's "I read"
18:02:22 <ktne> ehird: why it's awful? looks like a good compromise to me
18:02:33 <ktne> ehird: well, ok but why?
18:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird, that is illogical, it is past tense in "I walked on that road yesterday"
18:02:52 <ktne> ah, so just because it's verbose?
18:02:58 <ehird> AnMaster: err, and?
18:03:04 <ktne> or non-orthogonal? :)
18:03:13 <ehird> ktne: it's verbose, it's hard to predict in advance, it exposes low-level details to the programmer, it's non-orthogonal, ...
18:03:20 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it a bit odd that it is present tense then? or am I mixing something up
18:03:25 <ktne> well i can understand why you say that :-D
18:03:36 <ktne> but i guess i'll go with this because i really need performance
18:03:45 <AnMaster> ehird, look, I'm tired and have a headache...
18:04:47 <ehird> ktne: just implement it efficiently
18:05:00 <ehird> also, you're really way to obsessed about performance :)
18:05:02 <AnMaster> + I hurt myself badly the day before yesterday, one leg is kind of bluish from the knee and 10 cm up, (which is why I'm so tired since it hurt so much I had problems sleeping)
18:05:12 <ktne> ehird: is it possible to implement it as fast as C?
18:05:25 <ktne> ehird: well performance is one of the main reasons i implement my own language :)
18:05:33 <ehird> No!! Nothing is! None of these advanced features can go that fast ktne! If you want C speed, you have to USE A LANGUAGE ON THE LEVEL OF C!
18:05:36 <ktne> i'm not satisfied with the performance of javascript :)
18:05:40 <AnMaster> ehird, that reminds me, didn't you have a bit of snow or such in UK a few days ago?
18:06:09 <AnMaster> ehird, saw something in the paper about traffic chaos in London iirc?
18:06:18 <ktne> ehird: yes but the performance loss for an orthogonal one is too big for me
18:06:18 <ehird> I live up north, so I wouldn't know :-)
18:06:21 <AnMaster> ehird, so I guess around half a meter of snow at least?
18:06:28 <ehird> have you implemented it?
18:06:32 <ehird> tried different strategies?
18:06:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Maybe in London. Not here.
18:06:41 <ktne> no, but i guess it's > 5%
18:06:46 <AnMaster> I mean, anything less than, say, 30 cm would hardly cause traffic chaos
18:06:55 <ehird> ktne: guesses are worthless in rational programming
18:06:55 <AnMaster> ehird, don't read morning papers?
18:06:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: argh, you fell on the ice too? let's move to the mediterranean
18:06:59 <ktne> i already lose a lot of performance in some other places, this is a place where i can easily get performance :)
18:07:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Not most of the time :-)
18:07:23 <ktne> ehird: i agree, but also i don't feel like implementing the full stuff :)
18:07:36 <impomatic> AnMaster: about 2 inches of snow, I live half way up
18:07:38 <ehird> your language's loss i guess
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18:07:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure. July same year: <AnMaster> argh, it is 40 C outside in the sun, lets move to Scandinavia!
18:08:08 <AnMaster> impomatic, 2 inches in SI units?
18:09:01 <AnMaster> impomatic, well that isn't very much
18:09:42 <AnMaster> I mean, around 20 cm and I would understand the issus
18:10:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, I find hot Swedish summer days horribly hot, so I'm quite sure I couldn't stand it (at? on?) in the Mediterranean
18:11:04 <impomatic> It doesn't need much to bring the U.K. to a standstill :-)
18:11:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: if they don't have winter tyres, then it takes just about nothing
18:12:50 <impomatic> The news reports have been talking about the big freeze and arctic conditions. In reality it's just been a few cm of snow and -2C overnight
18:13:04 <oerjan> what we want is somewhere with _stable_ weather
18:15:02 <ehird> British spring/summer weather is perfect for me :-)
18:15:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right, and I guess there is no law in UK about that? In Sweden I think you must have it between November and March or something like that
18:15:50 <AnMaster> (I don't have a car, so I haven't needed to remember the details)
18:16:03 <AnMaster> impomatic, -2C? Bah, that is warm
18:16:09 <oerjan> something like that in norway too
18:16:22 <AnMaster> I think last week it was like -17C in the middle of the day
18:16:34 <AnMaster> today it was something like -10 or so iirc
18:17:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:17:36 <AnMaster> (no not really, but it feels like it, and yes, both fireplaces are in state == active atm)
18:17:55 <oerjan> I was going to call Monty Python sketch on that last one
18:18:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm you mean stable as in ~ 19-22 C all the year around, will maybe down to 18 C during night?
18:19:08 <oerjan> maybe a _little_ higher
18:19:32 <AnMaster> possibly with a bit of rain in the early morning (5:00-6:00 or so) to clear the air of any dust before the day (and to keep the ecosystem at least slightly in balance)
18:19:40 <impomatic> Hmmm... it's 25.4C indoors at the moment :-)
18:19:41 <ehird> Okay, I think I've read enough. Commence operation codename metal (and brace for epic failure, naturally.)
18:19:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, really? 19-23 C then I guess
18:20:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what is this operation?
18:21:38 <ehird> Okay, "foreign export ccall" is what I need to expose Haskell functions to other stuff.
18:22:00 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I suspect a possible way to do it would be creating some restricted subset, a freestanding subset that can be used for the MM subsystem, because MM seems like hardest _large_ part
18:22:09 <AnMaster> I mean, sure you need asm for stuff like port io and what not
18:22:17 <ehird> AnMaster: That's called "Only use strict, unboxed types".
18:22:23 <AnMaster> but the mm code would not be "small"
18:22:34 <ehird> Informally, "don't use any non-primitive types, and sprinkle #s and !s everywhere that doesn't cause a syntax error".
18:22:42 <ehird> Ugly as all hell, no doubt.
18:22:51 <AnMaster> something like asm("OUT 80h") is "small"
18:23:00 <AnMaster> ehird, what does #s and !s do?
18:23:20 <ehird> "a primitive, unboxed (not on the heap) int"
18:23:26 <ehird> +# is Int# -> Int# -> Int#
18:23:31 <AnMaster> are they often used in haskell?
18:23:32 <ehird> and compiles to a one-instruction assembly addition
18:23:43 <ehird> AnMaster: no, not unless you're going for very high speed
18:23:47 <AnMaster> and why can't it figure it out itself?
18:24:06 <ehird> AnMaster: and it's needed to _ensure_ they are unboxed
18:24:14 <ehird> AnMaster: !s are bang patterns
18:24:16 <AnMaster> oh yes not only mm, you need a full blown gc
18:24:26 <ehird> means that whenever this is evaluated
18:24:30 <ehird> x is strictly evalutaed
18:24:38 <ehird> i.e., no thunks (0-argument functions, used for laziness)
18:24:44 <AnMaster> how does haskell handle the gc at compile? as a library included at link time? or more central in the code?
18:24:49 <ehird> <AnMaster> oh yes not only mm, you need a full blown gc
18:24:53 <ehird> The GHC runtime system includes the gc.
18:25:04 <ehird> I don't write that; I write the neccessary libc&etc to run the gc.
18:25:17 <ehird> Another project has done this, but they didn't try and write the libc&etc mostly in Haskell.
18:25:31 <AnMaster> didn't ais use that for gcc-bf
18:25:36 <ehird> That's written in C.
18:25:43 <ehird> I'm writing it in Haskell + sprinkles of asm.
18:25:48 <ehird> Plus some C, if really really needed.
18:26:50 <AnMaster> well. no offence meant, but writing a good memory management system is hard as it is, and doing it in some haskell + lot of asm instead of lot of C + some asm, well...
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18:27:38 <ehird> i'm probably going to steal a malloc
18:27:41 <ehird> sheesh, stop being so condescending
18:27:57 <ehird> it's not like writing an OS with basic memory management is a huge herculean effort that nobody can accomplish
18:30:53 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed, but I said good one
18:31:04 <ehird> Good one is rather irrelevant as an experiment starts out
18:31:15 <ktne> ehird: you can implement a simple slab allocator in hundreds of lines of code
18:31:23 <ktne> ehird: and it's extremely efficient
18:31:24 <ehird> tell that to AnMaster :-)
18:31:32 <ktne> at least compared to other naive allocators
18:31:41 <ehird> zsh: bus error ./a.out
18:31:42 <ktne> well, it's not actually naive
18:31:50 <AnMaster> memory management in kernel is rather more complex, stuff like TLB, virtual address space vs. physical memory, and so on
18:31:55 <AnMaster> stuff userspace doesn't need to handle
18:31:56 <ehird> (Yes, that was a Haskell program segfaulting.)
18:32:08 <AnMaster> ehird, wow, what did you do with it?
18:32:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, I'm using the FFI to export my own main function to C.
18:32:24 <ehird> That might have something to do with it :P
18:33:33 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway will you use separate kernel/user spaces?
18:33:42 <ehird> It's just going to be kernelspace first...
18:33:48 <ehird> do you realise how long OS development takes? :P
18:33:50 <AnMaster> protected mode kernel space only?
18:33:58 <ehird> Who cares: whatever's simplest.
18:34:12 <ehird> if I ever make an actual project out of this, there'll be way more ifne-grained control than kernel/user.
18:34:16 <ehird> But, that's work. :D
18:34:19 <AnMaster> and I do know how long it takes
18:34:58 <ehird> reading ghc's asm output is, um, difficult
18:35:06 <ehird> think think closure thunk _ghczmprim_GHCziTypes_Czh_static_info
18:35:41 <AnMaster> ehird, using something like bochs or qemu? iirc bochs has a good debugger built in, and with qemu you can attach gdb
18:35:51 <ehird> I'm not at that point yet.
18:35:58 <ehird> I'm just reading the asm output.
18:36:02 <ehird> Not in OS-land atm
18:36:24 <AnMaster> I guess making this kind of work in user space first would be useful
18:36:43 <ehird> ^ despite being technically forbidden, this is the closest type I can get the FFI to output, and gcc accepts it...
18:36:47 <ehird> now to stop it segfaulting!
18:37:08 <AnMaster> ehird, does it segfault at return of main()?
18:37:13 <AnMaster> if yes I solved that issue once
18:37:33 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't have control over that code
18:37:45 <ehird> in cat -v, ^@ is \0 right?
18:37:47 <ehird> AnMaster: no, I don't
18:37:49 <ehird> the ffi generates that
18:38:03 <ehird> there's no exit().
18:38:08 <ehird> it doesn't know it's generating a main function.
18:38:11 <AnMaster> replacing return would be harder
18:38:13 <ehird> it's just exporting a haskell function as "main", blindly
18:38:45 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: export it as real_main and write a main() stub, you won't have such a main() when going OS level anyway
18:39:00 <ehird> that's less fun :-)
18:39:05 <AnMaster> (but need some wrapper that match whatever grub expects, or whatever you use)
18:39:24 <ehird> ah, I think I see the problem
18:39:30 <AnMaster> that is probably saner for debugging...
18:39:34 <ehird> the generated main() just cuts in doing stuff, when the RTS isn't initialized yet
18:39:38 <impomatic> Since we're talking about osdev, how do I get two processes to agree on a channel to communicate by?
18:40:35 * AnMaster waits for a clarification of what impomatic meant. IPC? TCP? shared memory?
18:41:58 <impomatic> I can implement the IPC primatives easily. But how would program A and B that need to communicate with each other allocate a channel?
18:42:07 <ehird> make the kernel broker one to both?
18:43:40 <AnMaster> impomatic, well, you could implement some sort of named pipe facility for example to allow different user space processes to open the same named pipe
18:44:01 <ehird> impomatic: do something like:
18:44:06 <AnMaster> this could be either a special file on a real file system like on *nix, or some sort of virtual namespace
18:44:14 <ehird> process 31: broker_channel(32);
18:44:18 <ehird> process 32: broker_channel(31);
18:44:22 <ehird> and it syncs them both up?
18:45:00 <AnMaster> or you could of course use shared memory, again possible named.
18:45:25 <AnMaster> ehird, interesting idea btw. How would the process read/write from the channel?
18:45:30 <ehird> AnMaster: additional functions?
18:45:38 <AnMaster> well I meant, what would they look like?
18:45:39 <ehird> CHANNEL broker_channel(PID)
18:45:48 <ehird> AnMaster: whatever
18:45:51 <ehird> the question is about brokering
18:46:32 <AnMaster> you could also (if you implement networking), open a connection on loopback
18:48:10 <AnMaster> impomatic, take a look at the posix apis for shared memory and such maybe?
18:49:10 <AnMaster> since not implementing stdin/stdout sounds impractical you could possible connect stdio between processes
18:49:31 <AnMaster> like | does in a (posix) shell (and also in dos iirc)
18:49:52 <AnMaster> once you got to that level I mean
18:50:36 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, that 31/32 in the example above, was that PIDs or?
18:51:18 <oerjan> Purely Invented Designators
18:52:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, I would suggest Purely Independable Designators
18:57:18 <AnMaster> good introduction to shared memory
18:57:36 <AnMaster> of course with shm you need mutexes or such
18:57:37 <oerjan> Possibly Incomprehensible Devices
18:58:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, Possibly Integer Designators (iirc PIDs doesn't _have_ to be integers on POSIX, at least in older posix specs, not sure about newer ones)
18:58:40 <ehird> WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP
18:59:06 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is special about it? Not using libc malloc() or?
18:59:20 <ehird> Here's what's special about it:
19:00:03 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/ywv9mcpzwwqno8nctwo7dq
19:01:45 <AnMaster> ehird, so you ended up with a C main() after all?
19:01:53 <ehird> AnMaster: no, these are just experiments
19:02:11 <ehird> this one, specifically, was how easy it was to write haskell code that can be called from other stuff
19:02:18 <ehird> with the answer being... very
19:02:42 <ehird> technically, I should be doing `hs_add_root(__stginit_Export);` after the hs_init, where __stginit_Export is defined...somewhere, but what the heck
19:02:54 <ehird> AnMaster: also, that putCStr is a lot simpler than I thought
19:03:00 <ehird> what you see there is pointer arithmetic being done with haskell
19:03:13 <ehird> (plusPtr p n) = (p+n)
19:04:23 <ehird> if you ask me, that's cool.
19:10:05 <ehird> http://pastie.org/private/7xnvw7j6cdwqdpz07wsdyg
19:10:12 <ehird> the dependencies of the complete linked test program I showed
19:10:14 <lament> haskell haskell haskell
19:10:19 <ehird> yeah - *gettimeofday*.
19:10:20 <ehird> I don't know either.
19:10:31 <ehird> maybe it's to produce erratic behaviour depending on the phase of the moon.
19:11:00 <lament> see how horrible and ugly haskell is? It even has pointer arithmetic.
19:11:34 <ehird> wonder if you can disable bignums to stop it trying ot clal gmp
19:11:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> yeah - *gettimeofday*. <-- can't you make ghc *output* C code?
19:11:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't compile via C.
19:11:52 <ehird> but not by default
19:12:10 <ehird> besides, what the fuck is the use of it? what can you do with the C that you can't do with the object code?
19:13:11 <GregorR> Compile on $OBSCURE_PLATFORM_X
19:13:16 <lament> ehird: do you know of a nice cross-platform way to get keyup/keydown events?
19:13:35 <lament> I want to write a program that lets you play the computer keyboard as if it were an accordion keyboard.
19:13:42 <ehird> GregorR: ghc is pretty widely-supporting
19:13:46 <ehird> lament: use SDL or OpenGL
19:13:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean for figuring out what gettimeofday() is used for.......
19:13:47 <ehird> that sort of stuff
19:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster: ah. it'll just be used by the RTS and therefore every program has to have it
19:14:05 <ehird> maybe seeding a PRNG or sth
19:14:27 <AnMaster> well not the libc prng, no call to srand or srandom there
19:14:46 <AnMaster> also the RTS? is it linked in as a static library?
19:14:49 <lament> oh, right, sdl does it
19:14:58 <lament> no idea why i didn't think of it
19:15:26 <lament> have you played with haskell sdl bindings?
19:15:42 <ehird> AnMaster: 1. dunno 2. Dunno maybe
19:15:46 <ehird> lament: nope, I want to thoug
19:16:06 <lament> i always thought of sdl as primarily a video thing
19:16:12 <lament> i don't even need any sort of UI
19:16:37 <AnMaster> prediction: 2010 headlines: First kernel using SDL internally released
19:16:43 <GregorR> Most of the input plugins are pretty closely tied to an associated output plugin, so I imagine you'll find no joy.
19:17:28 <ehird> AnMaster: SDL = Simple DirectMedia Layer
19:17:34 <GregorR> ehird: Yes, that's what they all say, hence the preponderance of non-video SDL apps :P
19:17:51 <lament> nice, it seems SDL is exactly what i need
19:17:54 <AnMaster> ehird, but "directmedia" made me think of the nightmare called Direct X
19:18:10 <lament> (by SDL i of course mean Graphics.UI.SDL)
19:18:19 <lament> (See! It's under Graphics.UI)
19:23:09 <impomatic> I have a simple OS - bootloader, kernel with memory management, scheduling, etc written in asm
19:23:45 <ehird> but not as neat as... /me shuts up
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19:33:02 <MizardX> Why is "indexable" not an english word?
19:34:09 <lament> blah, as usual installing stuff on windows is a pain
19:36:01 <lament> Graphics\UI\SDL\General.hsc:1:17: SDL.h: No such file or directory
19:37:31 <alex89ru> isnt there no sdl stuff in the include directory of your compiler?
19:37:56 <lament> i think the catch is i needed to specify it as C:\cygwin\blah
19:37:59 <lament> as opposed to just /blah
19:41:25 <AnMaster> um, cygwin should take care of that
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19:54:01 <lament> so i changed from unix to windows path syntax, and it finds header files
19:54:09 <lament> so i do the same thing for libraries, yet it still complains
19:54:17 <lament> so i go into /usr/lib and all the libraries are there
19:54:30 <lament> so i open Explorer and go into C:\cygwin\usr\lib and it's fucking empty
19:54:58 <lament> i copied the libraries by hand into another directory and everything compiled
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20:00:50 <AnMaster> lament, afaik cygwin basically mount --bind /lib /usr/lib
20:01:03 <AnMaster> it does same for /bin and /usr/bin
20:01:52 <lament> well it compiled, i just have no idea if it managed to install properly
20:01:59 <AnMaster> lament, but not sure why you would need to do think about that inside cygwin
20:02:15 <AnMaster> are you using some non-cygwin app when building?
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20:02:31 <lament> which is uhhhh a cygwin app
20:02:41 <lament> it must be doing some magic of its own
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20:07:06 <ehird> Hahahahaha you referenced a meme!
20:07:19 <ehird> Please put some thought before attempting humour.
20:07:37 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I do. I try to make it as bad as possible.
20:07:53 <ehird> there's a term for people who do that, it's called "irritating".
20:07:54 <AnMaster> I wouldn't tell a slightly bad joke, it as to be a positively anti-joke
20:08:07 <AnMaster> ehird, no, "irritating" is far below what I aim for
20:08:26 <ehird> Fun fact: aiming for people to hate you because you're annoying is not a noble goal.
20:08:55 <AnMaster> alas, I do not aim for them specifically.
20:10:49 <ehird> Hey, it's another irritating meme.
20:11:59 <AnMaster> ehird, All ur memes iz belongz to ur momma!
20:12:10 * ehird eyes ignore button
20:12:33 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry about the heart attack
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20:30:03 <lament> blah, i'll never get this to work.
20:32:23 <ehird> lament: whuz wrong
20:32:29 <ehird> if it's ghc linking,
20:32:37 <ehird> let the computer figure it out for you
20:32:57 <lament> so i (thought i) installed sdl
20:33:02 <lament> and then i compiled and installed hSDL
20:33:08 <lament> and i'm trying to compile my example
20:34:07 <lament> /Users/hercules/trunk/SDL-1.2/./src/main/win32/SDL_win32_main.c:246:0: undefined reference to `SDL_main
20:34:57 <lament> all this tells me is that somebody named hercules must have kept his SDL source tree on an OS X machine.
20:35:10 <ehird> lament: why didn't you install hSDL with cabal-install?
20:35:23 <ehird> try ghc --make Main
20:35:28 <lament> this is not an hsdl error, this is an sdl error.
20:35:45 <ehird> lament: reinstall SDL?
20:35:55 <ehird> before you spend hours trying to debug it and find you just compiled it wrong
20:37:02 <ehird> lament: ok, maybe your program is bugg'd
20:37:45 <lament> (my program doesn't do anything)
20:37:53 <ehird> lament: is it just main = return ()?
20:38:14 <ehird> anyway, you installed SDL wrong, is my diagnosis. :-P
20:38:27 <ehird> you need an sdlMain function or sth in haskell
20:38:32 <ehird> to have it link properly
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20:40:19 <ehird> lament: ok then, alternate possibility:
20:40:37 <ehird> hSDL needs you to do something else, and that error is because you didn't
20:40:45 <ehird> hSDL version incompatible with SDL version maybe?
20:40:56 <ehird> and finally, you installed SDL wrong
20:40:57 <lament> so many possibilities for stuff to go wrong!
20:41:03 <lament> that's why i hate libraries.
20:41:10 <ehird> determining which should not be very hard.
20:41:11 <lament> ehird: each one possibly taking days to investigate.
20:41:19 <ehird> incompatible versions should take minutes to find out
20:41:21 <ehird> lament: just ask #haskell.
20:41:27 <ehird> the author is probably there.
20:42:25 <lament> but i'm sure he uses unix and everything just works for him.
20:43:00 <ehird> maybe people would help you more if you asked instead of wh inin...
20:43:20 <ehird> then your program won't work. your loss only
20:43:43 <ehird> is typing out your problem into a string of characters and hitting enter difficult for you? :-P
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20:48:42 <lament> i think the error is because i'm a retard
20:49:51 <ehird> lament: did you fix it
20:50:02 <ehird> oh just ask #haskell or I will
20:50:26 <ehird> do it yourself then
20:50:29 <ehird> I give you 30 seconds
20:50:47 <lament> i'm sure it's not a haskell probelm
20:51:20 <ehird> lament: there you go.
20:53:22 <ehird> lament: well, that worked splendidly.
20:53:57 <ehird> did you see that wonderful sarcasm?
20:56:21 <lament> ohh that's what it was
20:56:49 * lament tries to compile SDL instead of using a binary
20:57:00 <ehird> lament: what went wrong
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20:57:20 <lament> nothing yet, i'm still only running configure, but just you wait!
20:58:24 <ehird> lament: but what was wrong with the binary
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21:14:04 <lament> i think i have to reinstall ghc actually
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21:44:50 <impomatic> Has anyone got the spec for Hanoi Love?
21:45:27 <impomatic> The link on the wiki is broken, nothing in the web archive :-/
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23:20:36 <ehird> "NetSurf is a web browser for RISC OS"
23:20:38 <ehird> That's one large market
23:24:47 <MizardX> KingOfKarlsruhe: Three things to fix; 1. "|" and "=" does not carry any action. 2. You need to extend the lines so all are the same length. 3. The for-loop in __call__ that look for "$" needs a break-statement.
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23:31:50 <KingOfKarlsruhe> MizardX: ich have a new version http://aetius.ae.funpic.de/snusp_2.py
23:36:19 <KingOfKarlsruhe> MizardX: the slash and backslash function was broken, now it works
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09:01:14 <oerjan> <ehird> Please put some thought before attempting humour.
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09:53:35 <ski__> (ehird : how about <http://hem.passagen.se/harlekin/html.htm> , <http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=30400>, then ?)
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10:19:57 <impomatic> I've just written an underload interpreter and wondered why []<> are reserved?
10:20:14 <ais523> although having a few reserved characters is useful
10:20:27 <ais523> when you're writing interps in esolangs
10:20:41 <impomatic> It's at http://corewar.co.uk/assembly/underload.htm
10:20:52 <ais523> yep, I noticed the link added to the wiki
10:21:03 <ais523> anyway, it's always nice to see more Underload interps
10:21:25 <ais523> especially as they help inform the Underlambda Project, which is mostly Underload-based
10:21:59 <ais523> how does Redcode do I/O? By character code?
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10:29:45 * ski__ thought recode had no I/O
10:30:51 <ais523> well, S appears to be implemented in that interp impomatic linked
10:30:54 <ais523> but I can't figure out how it works
10:31:27 <impomatic> sts for output, lds for input (only implemented in exmars streams)
10:31:48 <impomatic> there's also input output in ARES which has a screen buffer mapped into memory
10:32:06 <ais523> but in each case, you can output a character just by knowing its character code?
10:32:20 <ais523> I'm trying to design a completely general I/O model that all esolangs with general I/O can use
10:35:40 <impomatic> I'm wondering which Esolang to implement next
10:35:54 <ais523> have you done a rewriting language?
10:36:06 <impomatic> I've look at about 50 at random, but not seen anything I fancy
10:36:27 <ais523> also, I'd be interested at how short you can get a MiniMAX interpreter
10:38:47 <ais523> it is, I designed MiniMAX to have the shortest interpreter possible
10:38:58 <ais523> and I've done some crazily short ones as DOS COM files
10:39:03 <ais523> but Redcode might be able to manage it even shorter
10:51:19 <impomatic> 4 instructions for the main loop: mov }ptr, >ptr / add.ba }ptr, ptr / mov.x ptr, ptr / jmp -3
10:52:15 <impomatic> If the pointer is put in the third instruction and set to the initial values, no extra instructions are required for setup
10:52:32 <ais523> and you're explicitly allowed to do that
10:54:22 <ais523> looks like Redcode beats x86 by one instruction
10:54:25 <impomatic> Are the i/o extensions documented anywhere?
10:54:36 <ais523> no, because I can't figure out how they work myself
10:55:26 <ais523> basically they just let you do DOS interrupts by executing a 0
10:55:26 <impomatic> Just change the third line to ptr mov.x #2,2 - the program should be directly after the jmp
10:59:02 <impomatic> The 8086 interpreter can align the pointer to either an odd or even byte, but works on words
10:59:25 <impomatic> That behavior isn't portable to the redcode version
10:59:44 <ais523> hmm... IIRC the 8086 program only makes aligned accesses, though
10:59:54 <ais523> at least, if you fill memory with even numbers to start with, and you're supposed to
11:00:38 <ais523> choosing what form of input works best is part of the fun of MiniMAX, I didn't compromise in trying to get it as short as possible
11:01:05 <ais523> although there are various crazily short langs that did, I think there's a 36-bit interpreter in DOS for a TC language with I/O and programs only contain printable characters
11:01:10 <ais523> it's on Esolang somewhere
12:13:08 * AnMaster tries to figure out what the convo is about without reading it
12:13:33 <ais523> well, you need something to give you a clue as to what it's about
12:14:16 <ais523> it's about very short interps for TC languages
12:14:24 <ais523> impomatic wrote a MiniMAX interp in 4 words of Redcode
12:14:29 <AnMaster> machine code consisting of only printable chars?
12:14:46 <ais523> no, I was talking about some of the other golfed langs
12:14:59 <ais523> AnMaster: programming language used by Core Wars
12:15:02 <ais523> it resembles asm, mostly
12:16:16 <ais523> AnMaster: http://vyznev.net/corewar/guide.html is a good guide, if you haven't seen it before
12:16:51 <AnMaster> what are the commands in MiniMAX?
12:17:02 <AnMaster> or have I misundestood the wiki page
12:17:12 <ais523> AnMaster: there are no commands
12:17:23 <ais523> it's an OISC variant, and the command takes no arguments
12:17:26 <ais523> so you don't write it at all
12:17:29 <AnMaster> "A MiniMAX program consists of a series of 3-word commands"
12:17:38 <ais523> well, you set up initial memory
12:17:41 <ais523> to control the command
12:17:51 <ais523> so as a command is described entirely by its arguments
12:18:04 <ais523> (which are taken from memory, not in the program)
12:18:10 <ais523> you can think of the arguments as the command
12:25:33 <AnMaster> yes and I still think it is strange OISC can be TC...
12:25:47 <ais523> I don't, just about anything can be TC
12:26:08 * AnMaster refrains from jokes about that
12:34:04 * impomatic has been playing with various OISC this week
12:34:39 <ais523> we're going to have to invent a ZISC now
12:34:44 <ais523> if that even makes sense, it probably doesn't
12:34:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I already suggested that some time ago
12:35:02 <ais523> do you have any idea about how it could work?
12:35:11 <ais523> there's Wait I suppose, but that doesn't count
12:35:23 <ais523> meh, we can reuse it if we want to
12:35:37 <ais523> we're esolangers, things like name uniqueness shouldn't get in our way
12:36:02 <AnMaster> right, lets call the ZISC interpreter "MSVC"?
12:37:16 <ais523> besides, the command-line name for the real MSVC is cl, so there wouldn't even be a conflict
12:38:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well good point, we should make MSVC the ZISC IDE, and the compiler ICC?
12:38:40 <ais523> let's just come up with a spec first
12:38:52 <ais523> and I really like the idea of calling an esolang interpreter sh
12:39:09 <AnMaster> ais523, csh would be better, no one use THAT
12:39:16 <impomatic> There's a few references to ZISC about
12:39:32 <impomatic> I've been looking at them this week
12:39:38 <ais523> I'm still not entirely sure how you'd do an esolang with no instructions, though
12:39:40 <AnMaster> ais523, well something not based on instructions is the only way I can think of
12:39:47 <ais523> as soon as you make it do anything, that's arguably an instruction
12:39:55 <ais523> so yes, it would have to not be instruction-based
12:40:24 <AnMaster> ais523, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Instruction_Set_Computer
12:41:06 <ais523> meh, pattern matching's an instruction
12:41:22 <ais523> in fact, in a lang like Thue I tend to think of each pattern as an instruction
12:45:42 <ais523> <impomatic> Can bf programs be self-modifying?
12:45:46 <ais523> no, but see BrainTwist
12:46:00 <ais523> it's BF, but with an X command that swaps the code and the data arrays
12:46:24 <AnMaster> ais523, how does it handle unbalanced loops?
12:46:32 <ais523> not sure, I've never tried to use it
12:46:46 * ais523 tries to remember how FYB handles unbalanced loops
12:46:55 <ais523> IIRC, it ignores unmatched [s and ]s
12:47:27 <impomatic> I would have implemented FukYorBrane in Redcode, but there was something tricky that put me off
12:47:49 <ais523> there are all sorts of weirdnesses in FYB
12:48:02 <ais523> the modulo-17 arithmetic, for one (IIRC it was 17, it might have been some other odd number)
12:52:18 <impomatic> The spec doesn't make clear some points. I think to do with commit, uncommit, threads and defect
12:53:06 <ais523> ah yes, I have no idea what happens if both bots try to commit into the same thread, for instance
12:53:18 <ais523> there's a reference interp lying around somwhere, I suppose we could find out by experiment
12:55:56 <impomatic> There's some kind of Corewar game which uses a function language. Called struggle I think
12:56:36 <ais523> there was a BF-based game inspired by Corewars running on Agora for a while, and it's just starting back up again I think
12:56:49 <ais523> you didn't disrupt enemy code, but enemy data
12:57:07 <ais523> it got boring after a bit though as people found the best strategies
13:02:59 <impomatic> Do you have a URL? I haven't found anything in google
13:04:20 <impomatic> Here's the spec for struggle http://tr.im/eqhy
13:04:55 <ais523> http://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/bf/index.php is the hill
13:05:05 <ais523> everything else was done via email
13:05:36 <ais523> but the basic rules were ordinary BF without I/O, both programs use the same tape but < for one program is > for the other, each program starts at their left end of the tape
13:05:51 <ais523> initial cell is initialised to 128, you lose if you fall off the tape or the cell you started on becomes 0
13:05:56 <ais523> and random tape length
13:09:30 <ais523> the problem I think was that the tape was too wide to write a defensive program
13:09:42 <ais523> if it had been randomized in, say, the range 30-60, it would have been more interesting
13:24:10 <ais523> what tactics are you trying?
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13:31:18 <impomatic> Tactic: keep moving right, until something non-zero is found. Then set it to zero and repeat
13:32:00 <fizzie> Heh, I just did [>[-]+]; that's #3 when I run it against joust0..9. Don't feel like thinking about anything nontrivial.
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13:50:30 <impomatic> I've got the hang of it now. #1 against the first 15 programs on the list :-)
13:51:26 <ais523> I can beat all except some of the last few, if the tournament were still going I'd be about 5th
13:52:42 <impomatic> Is there some way I can submit programs by email?
13:52:53 <ais523> not any more, there was but the tournament ended
13:53:12 <ais523> there's a new one planned, with different rules, but it hasn't been finalised
14:32:18 <ais523> I didn't write that, but a negative win count seems unlikely
14:36:58 <impomatic> [[>+++++[-]-]-] get -1 wins against joust12
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15:57:33 <ktne> would a continuation implementation require that the entire stack be copied in order to save the local variables along the call path?
15:59:28 <ehird> No, not if you use CPS.
15:59:41 <ehird> Can I say Cheney on the MTA again? I like saying that.
16:00:00 <ehird> CPS = Continuation Passing Style, google it
16:00:07 <ehird> Then continuations are free, 0-cons
16:00:14 <ktne> i checked Cheney on the MTA
16:00:23 <ktne> but it looks like the stack has a fixed max size
16:00:41 <ktne> when you jump off the cliff i mean
16:01:30 <ehird> but since you use CPS
16:01:30 <ehird> the whole stack is there
16:01:36 <ehird> google continuation passing style, you'll see
16:02:17 <ktne> what happens if i have huge local variables?
16:02:52 <ktne> with stack-based calls, the calling mechanism is agnostic to huge stack sizes
16:03:30 <ktne> i mean, if you call a function, the performance of the call itself is not related to how large the local variables are
16:04:07 <ktne> but it looks like that if you copy the live objects when jumping off the cliff then you get a serious performance hit if the cliff is very large
16:04:17 <ehird> You don't copy the objects.
16:04:32 <ktne> how do you clean up the unused stack frames?
16:04:43 <ehird> + a call trampoline
16:04:51 <ktne> well, wouldn't that clean all stack frames?
16:05:03 <ehird> No, longjmp cleans all stack frames up to the point of setjmp.
16:05:11 <ehird> when you're calling a function
16:05:29 <ktne> do i have to allocate all local variables on heap?
16:05:31 <ehird> instead you set the function & args (where the continuation is one of the arguments, remember) into a thread local variable
16:05:38 <ehird> and the trampoline does the call
16:05:42 <ktne> if you remember i said yesterday that i want only specially marked local variables
16:05:43 <ehird> with cheney on the mta,
16:05:46 <ehird> you put it all on the stack
16:05:47 <ktne> to be allcoated on heap
16:05:50 <ehird> all variables go on the stack
16:06:03 <ktne> yes but what happens if the local variables are very large?
16:06:09 <ehird> the stack is large
16:06:11 <ktne> if for example in a classic stack you do this:
16:06:18 <ehird> ktne: try it with chicken scheme
16:06:22 <ehird> if it works, look at how it does it
16:06:22 <ktne> call_large_function(),call_large_function(),call_large_function(),call_large_function()
16:06:28 <ehird> but you can do things like that in chicken yes
16:06:31 <ktne> then the used stack space is constant
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16:06:38 <ktne> because the stack is cleaned after each return
16:06:47 <ktne> but in cheney's mta it's not
16:07:07 <ktne> so if the local variables are like several hundred mb large
16:07:29 <ktne> then you get a lot of stack space required, because you need one of that PER stack frame
16:07:41 <ktne> unlike the classical method where you would get that only once in the case above
16:08:02 <ehird> look, I made a suggestion, CPS+cheney on the MTA, chicken uses it, and it works fine for what you're saying, if you don't want to use it then don't
16:09:37 <ktne> it's not in fedora repositories
16:09:55 <ehird> so... compile it yourself?
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16:39:27 <impomatic> Does anyone do anything clever in BF Joust?
16:39:42 <impomatic> I assume everyone makes a decoy to slow down the opponent.
16:40:18 <ais523> pretty much everyone creates decoys, and there are various strategies to remove them
16:40:30 <impomatic> Do any opponents figure out whether it's quicker to increment or decrement the decoy?
16:40:40 <ehird> I don't think that's possible
16:40:50 <ais523> impomatic: yes, to some extent
16:41:05 <ais523> one of the well-doing submissions decrements a bit, and if that doesn't get anywhere increments the rest of the way
16:41:07 <impomatic> It's possible if someone has a regular decoy
16:41:28 <ais523> I don't know of any that memorise the opponent's decoy pattern, but I haven't seen the source for all of them
16:42:24 <impomatic> I can score 254 against the last 5 opponents on the list
16:43:24 <ais523> it's also common to exploit the range in which the opponent's flag could be
16:43:32 <ais523> which I can't remember offhand, which is why I didn't tell you
16:43:39 <ais523> but if you know where to start looking, it makes things faster
16:44:53 <ehird> I linked him to the post
16:49:33 * ehird considers a haskell implementation with reallyUnsafeCallWithCurrentContinuation# :: ((a -> b) -> a) -> a
16:49:39 <ehird> Wonder if that'd actually _work_
16:49:58 <ais523> I don't see why it couldn't in theory
16:50:07 <ais523> possibly only with a single unsafe
16:50:09 <ehird> How would that work?
16:50:15 <ais523> same way unsafe IO works
16:51:35 <ehird> Looks like I have to implement Haskell to find out, ay?
16:57:37 <impomatic> I'm giving up of 254. I beat everything apart from two of the Woggle entries
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16:58:35 <ais523> hmm... I should tell the contest's author of my ideas for doing something similar for the next round
16:58:44 <ais523> and note that you can join Agoran contests without playing the game as a whole
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17:27:37 <ehird> now that I think about it your name sounds like a gangsta
17:27:43 <ehird> MizzleizzardX in da house. Shiznit.
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17:39:15 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/RUM
17:39:21 <ehird> ais523: could we delete the retarded, trivial BF dialects
17:39:34 <ehird> i don't think anyone but their creators ever find any joy in them at all
17:39:46 <ais523> ideally, you'd make a separate namespace for them
17:39:49 <ais523> to keep them off random page
17:39:59 <ais523> I don't like the idea of deleting information like that, inane as it may be
17:40:00 <ehird> nobody wants to look a them
17:40:11 <ehird> at least ESME was nonsensically amusing
17:40:14 <ehird> these are just boring
17:40:18 <ehird> and dilute the wiki's usefulness
17:40:39 <ehird> http://github.com/irskep/rum/blob/bdef9c84909a260df137dcb57840620d6c492f05/getch.py
17:40:42 <ehird> it even has a broken ,
17:40:48 <ehird> (gets from the terminal before enter, and doesn't print to screen)
17:40:56 <ehird> that's not a BF superset
17:41:12 <ehird> Comment out lines until the next LF with #. Please use discretion when putting punctuation in comments, as I have not
17:41:16 <ehird> Please use discretion when putting punctuation in comments, as I have not
17:42:04 <ehird> brainfuck put through the idiot filter.
17:48:26 <ehird> "I often hang out on the #esoteric IRC channel on freenode.net with the nick kipple. "
17:51:57 <ehird> I wish I knew how that worked
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18:28:38 * impomatic is still looking for a language to implement! I've looked at about 100 random wiki pages now
18:28:58 <ais523> impomatic: have you implemented a functional language yet?
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18:29:26 <ais523> Unlambda's famous, but also famously difficult to implement
18:30:25 <ehird> unlambda is trivial
18:30:53 <ais523> ehird: I wouldn't call implementing c trivial, especially if you don't know the relevant tricks
18:31:03 <ehird> oh, I'd do it in a real language
18:31:18 <impomatic> Is there a minimal language similar to minus?
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18:31:47 <ais523> you might want to implement Thue at some point, too, it's another of the classics
18:34:21 <impomatic> Minus has far too many special variables
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18:57:40 <ehird> Hm I don't think this program actually worked
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18:58:27 <lament> ehird: i wrote my program without sdl ultimately :(
18:59:23 <ehird> lament: could you not sdl to work?
18:59:46 <lament> and then i read the readme file for hsdl and it said that there're difficulties getting it to work on os x as well
18:59:52 <lament> so i just decided to not bother
19:00:03 <lament> on the other hand i could just use sdl from c
19:01:23 <lament> i don't -really- care about cross-platform portability, it's not like anyone else would ever use this program :)
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19:02:06 <lament> it lets you play the computer keyboard like the right-hand accordion keyboard
19:02:18 <lament> you get almost three octaves of range
19:02:31 <ehird> awwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeesome
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19:05:00 <ehird> i'm sure you knew that./
19:05:03 <lament> one moment, let me tar it
19:05:16 <ehird> haven't I complained with you simultaneously about a guy who was dissing os x? :P
19:05:20 <ehird> i'm sure that happened like months ago
19:05:26 <ehird> not that people remember what happened heremonths ago
19:07:14 <lament> how do you tar a directory?
19:07:26 <ais523> tar cvf tarball.tar directoryname
19:07:37 <ais523> or cvzf if you want it as a zipped tarball
19:07:39 <ehird> you could also just zip it in finder, I know that's not hardcore.
19:08:44 <lament> you need the hmidi package installed
19:08:46 <ehird> lemme fig how to accept
19:08:48 <impomatic> How much would have to add to Underload to make it functional?
19:08:53 <ehird> impomatic: it is functional
19:09:07 <ais523> impomatic: technically speaking, it isn't functional, but all writing in it seems to be functional in practice
19:09:13 <ehird> lament: firewall probs I think :x
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19:09:44 <oerjan> impomatic: it's functional in the same sense as Joy, a mainstream concatenative functional language
19:09:52 <impomatic> So technically speaking, would I need to ad much to make it functional?
19:10:03 <ehird> You would need to add nothing.
19:10:22 <ais523> impomatic: you need to add nothing but a debate amongst esolangers as to whether it's functional or not
19:10:24 <oerjan> impomatic: it's functions from stacks to stacks
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19:11:32 <lament> ehird: http://filebin.ca/vcfm/haccordion.tar.gz
19:11:48 <ehird> so this uses the ffi, ey?
19:12:13 <lament> it's mostly in C really
19:12:43 <lament> "mostly" is just two functions though
19:12:43 <ehird> lament: keycodes.c... couldn't that just be in haskell?
19:12:46 <lament> it's not a very big program
19:13:01 <ehird> keys.c could also be in haskell
19:13:03 <impomatic> What's Underlambda? Empty page on the wiki
19:13:03 <lament> ehird: it's an existing c source code that i modified
19:13:21 <ehird> yeah that's a x program :(
19:13:25 <ehird> {- #LANGUAGE ForeignFunctionInterface -}
19:13:30 <ehird> {-# LANGUAGE ForeignFunctionInterface #-}
19:14:25 <oerjan> impomatic: ais523's vaporware language
19:14:54 <ais523> not vaporware on my computer
19:15:04 <ais523> just an I-want-to-make-absolutely-sure-I-get-it-right lang
19:15:08 <ais523> besides, vaporware is fun
19:15:10 <oerjan> if it's not on the wiki, it's vaporware
19:15:14 <ehird> you can replace your makefile with
19:15:24 * impomatic grabs a few books about functional programming
19:15:28 <ehird> lament: the gcc calls are unneeded
19:15:30 <ais523> if it is on the makefile, poeple will get upset when I change it arbitrarily every 5 minutes
19:15:32 <ehird> you can give ghc c files
19:15:49 <ehird> also it generates play_note, not ha
19:16:30 <oerjan> ais523: it's not like you would be the first :D
19:16:37 <ais523> yes, but I like to have style about such things
19:17:10 <ehird> lament it doesn't work :<
19:17:17 <ehird> {- If you don't hear anything or no midi devices are found, here's how to use GarageBand's
19:17:17 <ehird> synth: Open Audio-MIDI setup and make sure IAL is online. Then turn on garageband and
19:17:19 <ehird> create a software instrument track.
19:18:16 <ehird> lament: where's audio midi setup
19:19:08 <ehird> it isn't capturing my keystrokes
19:21:26 <ehird> lament: how are you meant to use it :P
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19:22:05 <oklopol> oerjan: i hear the red lines.
19:23:19 <lament> did you open Audio-MIDI setup?
19:23:35 <lament> it's in Applications/Utilities
19:23:35 <oklopol> AnMaster: ehird, All ur memes iz belongz to ur momma! <<< i'm so gonna use this
19:24:09 <ehird> lament: okay it says
19:24:12 <ehird> OUTPUT IS NOT SUPPORTED
19:24:20 <oerjan> oklopol: bah, selective hearing
19:24:30 <lament> ehird: it says that when you try to bring IAL online?
19:24:50 <ehird> what is IAL and how do I try and bring it online
19:24:54 <lament> open audio-midi setup, click on midi, click on IAL
19:25:15 * oerjan keeps reading that as I Am Lawyer
19:25:25 <ehird> okay i think it worked
19:25:38 <ehird> how do I use this software product of yours
19:25:43 <ehird> just running and typing does naught
19:25:50 <lament> does it say 'played a note'
19:26:00 <ehird> it just sits there.
19:26:14 <lament> that's when you run play_note?
19:26:58 <lament> what could explain that?
19:27:10 <ehird> the LHC ate your program
19:27:12 <lament> i've compiled it on two macs, works on both
19:27:51 <ehird> lament: maybe I am doing something wrong
19:27:54 <ehird> [ehird:~/Desktop/haccordion 2] % ./play_note
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19:28:00 <ehird> goijfoisajflsdjkafg
19:28:19 <lament> i dunno, put some printfs inside mainloop() in keys.c to make sure it is actually running
19:28:46 <lament> since it doesn't say played a note, that means the callbacks aren't run
19:29:02 <lament> so CGEventSourceKeyState must not return anything useful?
19:29:23 <lament> maybe you need to be superuser or something?
19:29:31 <lament> does your password work for sudo?
19:30:22 <lament> in keys.c there's a line bool keystate = CGEventSourceKeyState(...
19:30:36 <lament> i guess that is always returning false
19:30:47 <lament> i have no idea why it would do that
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19:32:49 <ehird> lament: no output whatsoever
19:32:54 <ehird> bool keystate = CGEventSourceKeyState(kCGEventSourceStateHIDSystemState, keyindex);
19:32:54 <ehird> printf("%i\n",keystate);
19:32:57 <ehird> [ehird:~/Desktop/haccordion 2] % make
19:33:00 <ehird> ghc -framework ApplicationServices -fglasgow-exts --make play_note.hs keys.o keycodes.o
19:33:02 <ehird> Linking play_note ...
19:33:04 <ehird> [ehird:~/Desktop/haccordion 2] % ./play_note
19:33:52 <lament> check that mainloop runs
19:34:04 <lament> but how would it not run??
19:34:24 <ehird> for (keyindex=0;keyindex<CODES_TO_TRACK;keyindex++)
19:34:27 <ehird> That'll never be looping
19:34:38 <lament> is wrong with your c compiler? :)
19:34:38 <ehird> well its the only thing left
19:34:42 <ehird> #define CODES_TO_TRACK 50 // approximately equals what we need
19:35:01 <ehird> bool keystate = CGEventSourceKeyState(kCGEventSourceStateHIDSystemState, keyindex);
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19:35:03 <ehird> this must be hanging
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19:36:00 <ehird> printf butt-debuggign confirms it
19:36:01 <ehird> into butt land i delve ->
19:36:05 <ehird> CGEventSourceKeyState is hanging
19:36:21 <lament> that certainly gives another reason to port it to SDL instead :)
19:36:32 <lament> apple docs say nothing about it hanging
19:37:06 <ehird> lament: i'm on tiger
19:37:09 <ehird> could that have something to do with it
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19:38:37 <ehird> lament: what was it
19:39:25 <lament> i mean i know, it must be a bug in apple api
19:39:34 <lament> but that doesn't really help!
19:40:22 <oklopol> lament: it lets you play the computer keyboard like the right-hand accordion keyboard <<< beepiano
19:40:26 <ehird> give me a dvd big enough to hold a burned leopard disk and I will lament :P
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19:41:19 <oklopol> that's kinda beside the point, worked on xp => not fail.
19:41:53 <oklopol> if you can show me another lib with as nice an interface, i can change it.
19:43:28 <ehird> it's more that neither I nor lament can use your program
19:43:35 <ehird> so pointing us to it is rather... pointless
19:43:46 <oklopol> but you can read the order of characters
19:44:30 <oklopol> my point was i'd definitely use that keyboard layout for playing, in case i understood correctly what lament meant.
19:44:57 <oklopol> keys=['1','q','a','z2','w','s','x3','e','d','c4','r','f','v5','t','g','b6','y','h','n7','u','j','m8','i','k',',9','o','l','.0','p']
19:45:20 <oklopol> this was the point; and also just that it was a program of mine if lament didn't know that; not that you could test it.
19:45:48 <oklopol> i'm disappointed at your lack of ability to read my mind once again.
19:46:25 <oerjan> oklopol: i knew you were going to say that
19:46:27 <lament> oklopol: that seems like the right layout
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19:46:51 <ehird> i read your mind oklopol, I just wanted to annoy you
19:46:54 <oklopol> lament: have you heard me play black diamond in it? i've linked it at least 3 times
19:47:57 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/s/black.mp3
19:48:15 <oklopol> (i play the piano better!)
19:48:42 <ehird> hahahahahahahahah that's awesome
19:48:58 <lament> oklopol: so we wrote the exact same fucking program?
19:48:59 <oklopol> that was about 5 hours of practise at the whole concept, i would love to hear you do something with the same layout
19:49:12 <lament> sure, i'm learning a mozart piece
19:49:12 <oklopol> lament: sure. except mine uses an incredibly ugly gui.
19:49:18 <lament> oh, mine doesn't have a gui
19:49:32 <ehird> lament: Garageband has a keyboard player, y'know
19:49:34 <lament> i can always use this as a gui http://www.thecipher.com/CBA_Csys_Spell.gif
19:49:38 <lament> ehird: yes. It's utter shit.
19:49:41 <AnMaster> <oklopol> AnMaster: ehird, All ur memes iz belongz to ur momma! <<< i'm so gonna use this <-- :D
19:49:55 <ehird> AnMaster: he was being ironicastic, i.e., he's gonna use it because it's so stupid
19:50:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, what about replacing "ur momma" with "Chuck Norris"
19:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, also I was being ironic when I said it....
19:51:01 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, he was saying your joke failed and that was amusing
19:51:07 <oerjan> one should _never_ joke about chuck norris' momma.
19:51:12 <ehird> what I'm trying to say is that he was laughing at you,
19:51:45 <ehird> AnMaster: no, that's what his line meant
19:52:01 <AnMaster> ehird, that is a matter of interpretation.
19:52:10 <oklopol> ehird: well, tbh i often consider AnMaster fairly hilarious; agreed, sometimes his unjokes are just ...too much.
19:52:16 <oerjan> oklopol: please say ehird is wrong. he is so annoying when he tells what other people mean.
19:52:57 <oklopol> oerjan: well he was wrong, i'm just too polite to tell him that directly.
19:52:57 <ehird> oklopol: your keyboard is so quie
19:53:05 <ehird> also I was wrong on purpose
19:53:09 <ehird> I can read oklopol's mind, remember
19:53:25 <oklopol> ehird: i think i taped the mic on the speaker or smth :D
19:59:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, ehird: you are using audio communication?
19:59:36 <AnMaster> what then awere those lines about...
19:59:37 <ehird> http://www.vjn.fi/s/black.mp3
20:00:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, the beepy melody sounds very good
20:01:10 <AnMaster> I assume it is produced by the keyboard that you hear too
20:01:21 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNLdTfwx5ZQ
20:01:59 <ehird> AnMaster: he presses keys and it plays noats
20:02:03 <oklopol> you use the keyboard as an accordion
20:02:03 <ehird> on the computer keyboard
20:02:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, cool, sounds hard to use though
20:02:15 <ehird> yeah but oklopol is a machine
20:02:22 <oklopol> AnMaster: if i played piano that bad, i would *not* link it.
20:02:37 <Asztal> I had a program like that once... I used it solely for annoyance value though
20:02:43 <oklopol> because, you know, lament would kickban me.
20:02:58 <ehird> lament plays piano.
20:03:06 <lament> day and night. Non-stop.
20:03:19 <lament> I take it to the bathroom with me.
20:03:34 <AnMaster> the video? I'm still downloading it
20:03:37 <ehird> lament is pianophillac
20:03:49 <ehird> also, the video is just the metal song he was playing
20:03:52 <lament> oklopol: sorry can't listen to mp3 i'm at work :(
20:03:54 <oklopol> my piano playing consists of sitting down, making up something completely random, and playing it obsessiely until it turns into a nice short snippet of music, then leaving the piano
20:03:55 <ehird> it doesn't really sound like it :P
20:04:04 <ehird> AnMaster: no, metal, we've been over this before :P
20:04:20 <ehird> dammit I have to write my own bleeper now
20:04:21 <oklopol> (also sometimes is actually compose something that makes sense, point is i only play my own songs)
20:04:24 <ehird> DAMN YOU ALL TO HELLHECKDAMN
20:04:35 <AnMaster> in the mp3 it sounded more like something that could have been fast classic music
20:04:53 <oklopol> lament: if you don't know stratovarius, as a finn i must suggest you check out at least some of it.
20:04:55 <ehird> some subgenres of metal draw from classical music, AnMaster
20:05:15 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I much prefer oklopol's recording over that youtube video
20:05:29 <AnMaster> though don't worry, song smith is worse ;P
20:05:30 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, the youtube video has an ELECTRIC GUITAR in. how awful
20:05:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't like the sound of electric guitar no
20:06:08 <ehird> oklopol's recording sounded like an electric guitar :P
20:06:12 <oklopol> lament: well, most of it is pretty basic metal stuff. probably not your style; then again, i'm not saying you should *not* listen to it ofc.
20:06:21 <AnMaster> ehird, no it sounded like a PC speaker
20:07:04 <oklopol> the sound of an electric guitar is absolutely beautiful; of course hitting the low piano keys hard is even sexier.
20:07:15 <oklopol> you know octaves so low you make your ass vibrate.
20:08:33 <oklopol> lament: maybe i should take that suggestion back, it's clear i should suggest you to listen to finnish metal as a finn, but i'm not sure i should use up my one suggestion point for stratovarius.
20:08:49 <AnMaster> what about using a church organ? You could go even lower!
20:08:59 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, but it's not nearly as manly.
20:09:10 <oklopol> the sound doesn't... umm... break?
20:09:29 <oklopol> you know low piano notes have distortion, in a sense.
20:09:46 <AnMaster> that partly depends on the quality of the piano
20:10:09 <ehird> bad pianos are HARDCORE
20:10:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, compare an upright piano to a grand piano
20:10:34 <oklopol> i'm talking grand piano, everything else just tries to mimic it
20:10:43 <ehird> or compare your mom to your mom.
20:10:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, large or small grand piano?
20:10:54 <oklopol> AnMaster: the bigger the better, naturally
20:11:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you seriously don't hear any difference between them?!
20:11:21 <ehird> between your mom and your mom?
20:11:28 <ehird> nope, they both moan the same.
20:11:31 <AnMaster> ehird, between upright piano and grand piano
20:11:31 * ehird deports to #misinterpretation
20:12:00 <ehird> okay let's see how you MAIN LOOP WITH SDL FUCK YEAH
20:12:01 <oklopol> i'm not sure i'd hear the difference between them, unless playing myself.
20:12:25 <ehird> Waits indefinitely for the next available event.
20:12:34 <ehird> i'd prefer an infinite list of events
20:12:37 <ehird> that's just more... pure
20:12:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, well what if you were playing with a curtain that hid everything but the keys? would you still hear any difference
20:13:01 <AnMaster> or with a blindfold, though that would be hard
20:13:20 <lament> ehird: you're rewriting my thing with sdl?
20:13:28 <ehird> lament: i'm writing my own thing with sdl
20:13:38 <lament> ehird: hsdl or just sdl?
20:13:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, you would *feel* the difference I bet, but *hear* it?
20:13:52 <lament> ehird: was it difficult to get hsdl working on mac?
20:13:57 <ehird> /usr/bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
20:13:59 <ehird> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
20:14:09 <ehird> Suicide commit time lol
20:14:16 <ehird> let's google on how you ACTUALLY USE THIS THING
20:14:38 <ehird> Deewiant: didn't do anything
20:14:50 <oklopol> AnMaster: my playing is fairly aggressive, if you hit the keys hard, a grand piano will respond differently than an upright one.
20:15:11 <ehird> Deewiant: % ghc --make bleep.hs
20:15:20 <oklopol> i usually hit them as hard as i can for maximum satisfaction
20:15:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes, but part of that is in the feeling, and part in the sound
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20:15:32 <oklopol> i don't believe in feeling
20:15:32 <Deewiant> ehird: what do you mean now what :-P
20:15:39 <ehird> Deewiant: no -lsdl
20:15:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, I mean tactile feeling
20:15:42 <fizzie> A beepiano is a piano made out of bees. Very painful to play.
20:15:46 <ktne> does anyone know how optional parameters are implemented in compiled languages?
20:16:04 <Deewiant> ehird: cabal knows to tell ghc to add those
20:16:11 <Deewiant> (well, on non-Windows systems anyway)
20:16:15 <ehird> so whydi get dis error
20:16:20 <oklopol> fizzie: in fact, actually it's from beep+piano, the p just fell out.
20:16:31 <AnMaster> ktne, I assume compiler just resolves it at compile time to pass the extra args
20:16:35 <ehird> he means to functions
20:16:41 <oklopol> fizzie: quite an embarrassing misunderstanding, i'd expect more from you
20:16:44 <ktne> AnMaster: what is the arity of a function that has optional parameters? required parameters + 1 extra parameter pointing to a struct?
20:17:09 <oerjan> fizzie: lately several beepianos have collapsed i hear
20:17:19 <AnMaster> ktne, what is the arity if printf()?
20:17:47 <fizzie> I think C++ compilers usually do it simply so that the calling function provides the default values of parameters if you don't specify them.
20:17:51 <oklopol> okay, enough irc for today, see you later... ally... gate... err
20:17:58 <ktne> fizzie: i see..
20:18:02 <ktne> fizzie: great idea
20:18:14 <ehird> <pejo> ehird, that's a common question. Not sure if anyone has solved it but the channel logs should contain lots of references.
20:18:21 <AnMaster> ktne, and what I said above.......
20:18:24 <fizzie> So the arity is the sum of normal and "optional" arguments; which in that sense aren't really optional at all, they just have default values provided.
20:18:26 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ktne, I assume compiler just resolves it at compile time to pass the extra args
20:18:28 <ehird> 20:17 <AnMaster> ktne, what is the arity if printf()?
20:18:28 <ehird> 20:18 <AnMaster> (in C that is)
20:18:32 <ehird> It just passes all args on the stack
20:18:32 <ktne> AnMaster: i see, thansk
20:18:37 <ehird> and the va_arg functions pops them
20:18:40 <ehird> if you mess up the printf vs args
20:18:43 <ehird> you blow the stack
20:18:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I know this, I just answered ktne's question with another question
20:20:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you know, get him thinking for himself, "if you give a man a fish he has a food for one day, if you teach how to fish he has food for the rest of his life"
20:20:15 <ktne> what about dynamic languages?
20:20:17 <AnMaster> not sure if that is the correct form in English
20:20:49 <AnMaster> ktne, I guess they just resolve it at runtime using metadata about the function?
20:20:57 <ktne> is there any dynamic language that differentiates between two functions that have same name but different arity?
20:21:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: optional arguments are not the same as variable length list of arguments, necessarily
20:21:04 <fizzie> I have a feeling you could (with some difficulty) make a standards-conforming C++ implementation where (in case of functions with default values) the calling site provides just the number of arguments provided, and the function prologue handles the default values.
20:21:32 <ktne> AnMaster: that was the catch i was wondering about, they don't look compatible
20:21:45 <AnMaster> io:format(A, B, C) and io:format(A, B) would be two different functions
20:21:59 <ktne> i'm thinking about distinguishing between function using function name, arity, and number of return values
20:22:11 <ktne> would that be sensible?
20:22:29 <AnMaster> (ktne: actually it is io:format("string here: ~s integer: ~p~n", ["my string", 42]).)
20:22:50 <ktne> i see, so it's two parameters
20:22:50 <AnMaster> (thus passing a cons-style list with the arguments
20:22:59 <AnMaster> ktne, well that specific function
20:23:18 <oerjan> ktne: probably, note prolog also does this and it uses arguments for return values
20:23:22 <AnMaster> ktne, erlang use the notation: module:name/arity, so io:format/2
20:23:34 <oerjan> that's where erlang got it from too
20:23:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes they are related in syntax
20:23:54 <ktne> that's what i plan to, except that i also want to consider return values
20:23:59 <lament> Why would you ever have functions that take more than one argument?
20:24:07 <oerjan> i think mercury may do like prolog but with i/o declarations in addition
20:24:11 <AnMaster> ktne, wow you mean more than one return value? cool
20:24:28 <AnMaster> that is basically returning a tuple
20:24:41 <ktne> well, i'm thinking in a more low level thing
20:24:50 <lament> any language in which functions take more than one argument is clearly completely flawed.
20:24:53 <ktne> i could return the multiple values directly
20:25:05 <ehird> <ehird> Lemmih: you made hSDL, right? :) <ehird> how do I fix that error? any ideas? <Lemmih> ehird: Install Linux.
20:25:08 <AnMaster> ktne, well you can do that in erlang:
20:25:11 <ktne> lament: the closure?
20:25:12 <ehird> go to hell, library author.
20:25:16 <ehird> lament: SHARE IN MY ANGER.
20:25:23 <AnMaster> {MyVar, MyOtherVar} = my_func(),
20:25:24 <ktne> AnMaster: yes but i want to avoid tuple allocation on return
20:25:33 <AnMaster> ktne, erlang is based on pattern matching :)
20:25:53 <lament> ehird: first of all, note that hsdl has readme files about win32 and osx, and those are NOT written by lemmih.
20:25:55 <ktne> although returning a tuple is sensible because you might just want to assign that tuple as a whole to some other variable
20:26:16 <lament> ehird: so maybe you should bug those people instead
20:26:23 <AnMaster> <ktne> although returning a tuple is sensible because you might just want to assign that tuple as a whole to some other variable <-- or a list, or whatever
20:26:33 <lament> ehird: second, just do that part in C
20:26:34 <AnMaster> ktne, and erlang isn't an esolang, so it is *sensible*
20:26:39 <ktne> ok, done, i'm going to consider function name and arity, optional parameters if any will be sent using a hidden parameter, is this ok?
20:26:42 <ehird> lament: the hackage package:
20:26:43 <lament> ehird: and third, see, this is why haskell sucks!
20:26:46 <ehird> Copyright2004-2008, Lemmih
20:26:46 <ehird> AuthorLemmih (lemmih@gmail.com)
20:26:48 <ehird> MaintainerLemmih (lemmih@gmail.com)
20:26:55 <lament> ehird: how does that contradict anything i've said?
20:26:57 <ehird> how could I possibly misinterpret that :D
20:27:01 <AnMaster> ktne, what about using a list of tuples?
20:27:10 <oerjan> ktne: if you want the function to depend on number of return values then obviously the number of return values must be decided _before_ calling it, say by syntax
20:27:11 <ktne> AnMaster: where a list of tuples?
20:27:39 <AnMaster> ktne, like foo(arg, arg2, [{optionalargumentname, Value}, ...])
20:27:54 <ktne> AnMaster: that would be slow
20:27:55 <oerjan> maybe something such as python's tuple assignments
20:28:03 <ktne> AnMaster: i want to avoid unnecesary list processing
20:28:44 <AnMaster> ktne, erlang seems to manage it fine, compiling to bytecode and then running under the vm
20:29:04 <AnMaster> I believe it optimises stuff like constructing tuples too
20:29:09 <ehird> /usr/bin/ld: warning -L: directory name (/sw/lib) does not exist
20:29:10 <lament> ehird: see, lemmih directed you to the same readme file as i
20:29:15 <ehird> Just freaking hardcode for Fink.
20:29:26 <AnMaster> ktne, after all it can just prepare one statically, it is single assignment, so no need to copy the stuff around
20:29:53 <ktne> i want to avoid parsing the list for arguments
20:30:03 <lament> ehird: i strongly suggest avoiding hsdl
20:30:16 <lament> ehird: that undefined reference to sdl_main is the same error i got yesterday on cygwin, by the way
20:30:18 <ktne> although it would have the advantage of reducing memory usage if you have tons of optional parameters
20:30:28 <ehird> lament: i'm gonna get thsi working.
20:30:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what if this "Lemmih" doesn't own any OS X system he can test on?
20:30:34 <ehird> /usr/bin/ld: multiple definitions of symbol _main
20:30:35 <ehird> /opt/local/lib/libSDLmain.a(SDLMain.o) private external definition of _main in section (__TEXT,__text)
20:30:37 <ehird> dist/build/Graphics/UI/SDL/General_hsc_make.o definition of _main in section (__TEXT,__text)
20:30:48 <ehird> AnMaster: what are you on about?
20:30:58 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> <ehird> Lemmih: you made hSDL, right? :) <ehird> how do I fix that error? any ideas? <Lemmih> ehird: Install Linux."
20:31:00 <ais523> I suggest you take the resulting binaries, and change the first 3B to 3D
20:31:25 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah it was more saying "Install Linux" as a sarcastic flamebait response as opposed to "I don't know, I don't use OS X"
20:31:36 <ais523> AnMaster: ok, this time you have missed a joke
20:32:11 <AnMaster> ehird, after all, OS X has a non-traditional file system structure
20:32:27 <ehird> AnMaster: what the heck has that got to do with anything
20:32:47 <AnMaster> ehird, with things not being where a *bsd or linux developer expects them to be
20:32:48 <lament> AnMaster: that's probably not why you get the same undefined reference error as you do on cygwin
20:32:53 <AnMaster> and the "framework stuff" then
20:33:07 <AnMaster> lament, true, that is likely due to windows
20:33:09 <ehird> call me when you're coherent, mon.
20:33:31 <AnMaster> ehird, AWWWK! The pencil! ARGH!
20:34:50 <oerjan> 3B or not 3B, that's the question
20:35:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, Mr Jelly Beans! Spoon!
20:35:42 <ehird> lament: ha, I think it's working
20:35:53 * oerjan does not get the reference
20:35:53 <lament> ehird: how did you fix it
20:35:59 <ehird> wait, no it isn't working.
20:36:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, the first one: no reference. The second: Discworld.
20:37:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh and don't use " around...
20:37:13 <AnMaster> since I'm pretty sure I didn't quote exactly
20:37:47 * AnMaster noticed a lot of people here never noticed all the Discworld references he used throughout the year.
20:38:02 <AnMaster> I guess around 20%-30% were noticed
20:38:19 <ais523> that's a genuine reference, I even wrote a C++ program to generate it
20:38:38 <ais523> well, to be precise it's a pointer to a reference, but I had to convert it to hex somehow
20:39:08 <AnMaster> ais523, you could probably get the value using gdb
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20:39:58 <comex> ok, I don't get it
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20:40:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm only up to "Eric"
20:40:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh I don't even know what book this was in
20:40:29 <ais523> comex: <ais523> well, to be precise it's a pointer to a reference, but I had to convert it to hex somehow
20:40:52 <AnMaster> where Hex got infected by Busariness(sp? forget it...)
20:41:26 <AnMaster> oh wait, ehird would suggest that I use "have" not "got" there
20:41:33 <ehird> But we can fake it. In Core/Examples/MacOSX, I've included the Core/Examples/Test.hs example and a small Cabal definition to build it. Our actual 'main' is Test.sdl_main. We provide a Main.main, 'foreign export'ed as 'hs_main', which we will call from C. (We indirect so that the file Main_stub.o need not be rebuilt every time we modify module Test.) We provide our own 'SDL_main' in c_main.c, which initializes the Haskell runtime and calls 'hs_main',
20:41:38 <ehird> running Test.main in an environment with SDL available. Finally, libSDLmain will find our C 'SDL_main' and call it, starting the whole process.
20:41:53 <lament> ehird: yes, i've read that file
20:42:03 <lament> that was when i decided for sure to not bother with hsdl
20:42:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't think "have" is correct there
20:42:18 <lament> it's not like using sdl is terribly hard
20:42:25 <ais523> AnMaster: probably you want "was"
20:42:29 <lament> you don't really win any points by doing everything in haskell
20:42:59 <AnMaster> ais523, because I thought "got" was correct there
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20:43:09 <ais523> got is sort of correct there
20:43:18 <ais523> just it's a word you rarely hear adults using
20:43:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait the first line also had a Discworld reference
20:44:15 <AnMaster> Thud is one of the most recent ones
20:44:32 <AnMaster> but that one I didn't think about in advance
20:45:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, well it is clear to me that the person ended up this way due to using sed for something non-trivial
20:45:32 <AnMaster> like writing an RPN calculator
20:45:46 <AnMaster> so of course he would want awk
20:46:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, "AWWWK!" is a cry for help in this case.
20:46:46 <AnMaster> (Help! I'm stuck in a sed script!)
20:46:57 <oerjan> AWWWK! *THUD* sounds plausible
20:47:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, no, the book is Thud, but Awwwk isn't related to that
20:47:45 <oerjan> AWWWK! *WHOOSH* even more so
20:47:46 <AnMaster> the book is named after the table top game Thud that is quite important to the plot
20:49:27 <ehird> % ghc --make -no-hs-main bleep.hs main.c -o bleep
20:49:27 <ehird> [1 of 1] Compiling Bleep ( bleep.hs, bleep.o )
20:49:31 <ehird> lament: that was _easy_
20:49:47 <ehird> 13 lines of trivial c in main.c, then just instead of main in haskell, do:
20:49:52 <ehird> foreign export ccall sdl_main :: IO ()
20:50:20 <oerjan> i guess this program is bleeping annoying
20:50:59 <lament> ehird: can you send me it?
20:51:56 <AnMaster> ehird, gave up haskell kernel?
20:51:57 <ehird> lament: here you go: http://pastie.org/private/b4humfcteprzojcrqhcq
20:52:24 <ehird> lament: you can rename sdl_main to sdlMain
20:52:27 <ehird> and call it as sdlMain() in C
20:52:29 <ehird> that's more haskelly
20:52:59 <ehird> I'm not sure that works :P
20:54:05 <ehird> lament: SDL.h defines the macro "main"
20:54:08 <ehird> to rewrite to SDL_main and stuff
20:54:11 <lament> first, how does #include "SDL/SDL.h" work?
20:54:16 <ehird> err, how doesn't it
20:54:28 <lament> like this: main.c:1:21: SDL/SDL.h: No such file or directory
20:54:40 <ehird> where's your SDL includes?
20:54:40 <lament> shouldn't that be <SDL/SDL.h> ?
20:54:54 <lament> they're in /usr/include
20:55:53 <ehird> lament: actually, in main.c
20:55:56 <ehird> don't import bleep_stub.h
20:56:34 <ehird> extern void hs_init(int *, char ***);
20:56:34 <ehird> extern void hs_add_root(void (*)(void));
20:56:35 <ehird> extern void __stginit_Bleep(void);
20:56:37 <ehird> extern void sdlMain(void);
20:56:39 <ehird> extern void hs_exit(void);
20:56:41 <ehird> then you can compile them in one go
20:56:43 <ehird> (before I had compiled them separately)
20:56:47 <ehird> lament: it's ugly, but
20:56:49 <ehird> you only have to write it once
20:56:58 <ehird> you can make it even less changey
20:57:03 <ehird> change Bleep to Main
20:57:05 <lament> it doesn't work anyway, i can't even get it to find SDL/SDL.h
20:57:08 <ehird> and remove the module statement from bleep.hs
20:57:11 <ehird> then you never have to touch the c file
20:57:34 <ehird> ghc --make -no-hs-main -L/usr/include main.c bleep.hs -o bleep
20:58:21 <lament> i think my ghc is fucking retarded
20:58:26 <lament> i don't think it accepts cygwin paths
20:58:47 <ehird> then give it c paths :P
20:58:55 <ehird> btw I was wrong, it can't be called main
20:59:15 * AnMaster leans back and notice no issue on Linux with such stuff. :D
20:59:26 <ehird> AnMaster: it's hsdl's fault
20:59:26 <lament> AnMaster: there isn't such an issue on any platform
20:59:29 <ehird> lament: ok, what are you doing
20:59:32 <lament> except when you're using this broken library
20:59:43 <lament> ehird: i dunno, i can't get it to find SDL.h
20:59:48 <ehird> paste the command + error
21:00:17 <lament> $ ghc --make -no-hs-main -L/usr/include bleep.hs main.c -o bleep
21:00:17 <lament> main.c:1:21: SDL/SDL.h: No such file or directory
21:00:53 <lament> can you make ghc output the list of header paths searched?
21:01:00 <ehird> try -LC:\real\path
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21:02:40 <lament> on the other hand "$ gcc -L/usr/include main.c" works
21:02:45 <lament> (but dies when linking of course)
21:03:11 <ehird> lament: as a hack, change the include to
21:03:17 <ehird> #include "/usr/include/SDL/SDL.h"
21:03:20 <ehird> ugly as fuck? yes.
21:03:47 <lament> actually it doesn't, trying the c path instead
21:04:14 <lament> you think that was ugly
21:04:15 <AnMaster> use ghc to generate C output then link it?
21:04:25 <ehird> stop making wild guesses all the time kthx
21:04:25 <lament> THIS is ugly: #include "C:\cygwin\usr\include\SDL\SDL.h"
21:04:35 <lament> but it actually worked \o/
21:04:46 <AnMaster> lament, don't you need to escape the \ ?
21:04:51 <lament> now what was all that other stuff i was supposed to do
21:05:01 <ehird> nothing, it's fine
21:05:06 <ehird> do you want an updated version though?
21:05:13 <ais523> technically speaking, strings in a #include can be parsed however the compiler wants
21:05:18 <ais523> they aren't ordinary C strings
21:05:28 <lament> ehird: yay, it actually workes
21:05:34 <lament> the only thing i had to do with add -XCPP
21:05:39 <ais523> they don't even technically have to refer to filenames, although every compiler I've met does that
21:05:44 <lament> Graphics/UI/SDL/RWOps.hs:21:1: lexical error at character 'i'
21:06:33 <lament> ehird: but this is fucking ugly
21:06:48 <ehird> lament: not really
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21:06:50 <ehird> you don't have to think about the c
21:06:52 <lament> since this program doesn't use much sdl, it seems just using C would be cleaner
21:06:53 <ehird> it's static, forever
21:06:57 <ehird> all you modify is your haskell
21:06:59 <ehird> and just copy the c file around
21:07:16 <lament> it's static until you need to modify it
21:07:21 <lament> eg when it can't find SDL.h
21:07:32 <lament> that's when you realize you have a horrible bitrotten mess.
21:07:38 <ehird> WFM without that hack
21:07:59 <ais523> Windows Foundation Metaclasses
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21:08:23 <lament> right, but it's supposed to be crossplatform
21:08:33 <ehird> your system is fucked
21:08:43 <ais523> the SDL itself is cross-platform
21:08:46 <ehird> no, it doesn't work on your system because your ghc or something is broken
21:08:49 <ehird> ais523: thanks cpt obv
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21:09:17 <lament> ehird: i used windows, then i switched to linux, then i switched to mac
21:09:21 <lament> i use windows and mac at work
21:09:27 <lament> new oses come out all the time
21:09:30 <ehird> fix your cygwin environment
21:09:33 <lament> new version of os x comes out, everything breaks
21:09:39 <ehird> that code is perfectly fine
21:09:41 <lament> my point is, bitrot is a real problem
21:09:43 <ehird> it's your cygwin environment
21:09:51 <ehird> and the C file is 13 bloody lines, man
21:09:52 <lament> and everything that helps avoid bitrot is good
21:09:54 <ehird> it's hard to bitrot 13 lines.
21:10:08 <lament> it's not about the size
21:10:15 <lament> it's about the number of possible points of failure
21:10:29 <lament> in this case, hsdl is an extra point of failure, and this hacky c file is another point of failure
21:10:56 <ehird> i sent the files to you because they're simple and worked for me and you asked
21:11:00 <lament> i trust SDL not to bitrot
21:11:11 <ehird> they don't work on your weird-ass broken cygwin environment
21:11:12 <lament> i don't really trust hsdl not to bitrot, especially since it already requires hacks to run
21:11:14 <ehird> don't complain about that to me
21:11:29 <lament> it's not weird-ass broken, it's a regular cygwin environment
21:11:40 <ehird> except your ghc is broken
21:12:04 <lament> it's a standard install of ghc for windows
21:12:08 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: thanks cpt obv <-- you would have been a lot nastier towards me
21:12:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no I would not have
21:12:23 <ehird> stop whining about how horrible I am to you all the time
21:12:32 <ehird> lament: mixing cygwin + non-cygwin always fails
21:12:46 <ehird> ok, this _is_ odd...
21:12:46 <ehird> KeyDown (Keysym {symKey = SDLK_a, symModifiers = [], symUnicode = '\NUL'})
21:12:50 <ehird> why on earth is symUnicode nul
21:15:14 <ehird> lament: link to haccordion? I lost the source
21:15:27 <lament> http://filebin.ca/vcfm/haccordion.tar.gz
21:15:54 <ehird> does it use haskore?
21:16:27 <ehird> haskore looks cooler :-P
21:17:29 <lament> i don't even know if haskore has a midi interface
21:17:39 <lament> but it seems a huge library designed for something completely different from what i need
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21:18:05 <ehird> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskore
21:18:09 <ehird> you just compose chords and play them as midi
21:18:47 <lament> i don't need to compose any chords. Look at play_note.hs.
21:18:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what about playing style? attack?
21:19:07 <ehird> lament: haskore doesn't require you to create a garageband instrument?
21:19:23 <lament> ehird: that's a -feature-
21:19:28 <lament> not a garageband instrument
21:19:34 <lament> haccordion is a midi device
21:19:39 <lament> you connect it to any midi synth
21:19:44 <ehird> oh, that's why it didn't work then
21:19:46 <lament> that's a good thing (tm)
21:20:01 <lament> i could connect it to my external midi keyboard for example
21:20:04 <ehird> i thought you typed into the program and it played
21:20:13 <lament> you type into the program, it sends midi events
21:20:22 <lament> it doesn't play anything
21:20:44 <ehird> you didn't make that clear
21:21:23 <lament> it should be pretty obvious from the requirement to open garageband and create a midi track :)
21:21:44 <ehird> lament: how do I set that midi track to the program
21:22:23 <lament> IAC is like a loopback
21:22:30 <ehird> how do I use it after doing that
21:22:49 <lament> it should just work after that, because garageband seems to take all midi input
21:23:14 <ehird> 1 midi inputs detected, it says
21:23:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> you didn't make that clear <-- why?
21:23:18 <ehird> so it;'s the keyboard that's the problem
21:23:22 <AnMaster> I mean we all have midi set up
21:23:41 <ehird> you know nothing about what you're talking, AnMaster. please stop.
21:24:37 <AnMaster> keys.c:2:53: error: ApplicationServices/ApplicationServices.h: No such file or directory
21:25:10 <ehird> wow you're an idiot.
21:25:27 * oerjan watches AnMaster accidentally press return after ~
21:25:40 <lament> AnMaster: does wx provide a way to monitor keyup/keydown events?
21:25:57 <ehird> HAVE YOU BEEN LISTENING?!?!?!
21:26:07 <lament> AnMaster: now you're only like three hours behind the conversation :)
21:26:07 <AnMaster> and I can't see the issue with SDL here
21:26:13 <AnMaster> since I know sdl works for that
21:26:28 <lament> i will probably do that too
21:26:41 <AnMaster> lament, I admit it was from C, not haskell
21:26:43 <ehird> lament: but BITROT :-P
21:26:54 <lament> ehird: i trust SDL more than apple api
21:27:02 <lament> especially since apple api doesn't work for you!
21:27:12 <lament> SDL is not gonna bitrot any time soon
21:27:14 <ehird> AnMaster: do you think you could just jump off a cliff? that'd help this conversation immensely. thanks x
21:40:42 <lament> listen to Marvin Gaye "What's going on"
21:40:47 <lament> i don't know what that is, never heard it
21:42:24 <lament> fine then, listen to mozart - piano concerto no. 21 - andante
21:43:44 <lament> fine then, go fuck yourself with a toilet plunger
21:44:20 <ais523> please, the atmosphere in here is deteriorating
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22:10:48 <ehird> lament: want the updatd main.c?
22:11:55 <ehird> lament: http://pastie.org/private/nks52uzi3kpvb22vqxzba
22:12:01 <ehird> it'll work as long as it can find sdl/sdl.h
22:12:04 <ehird> so, just use -L or w/e
22:12:13 <ehird> -Ic:\path\to\include
22:17:44 <ehird> lament: hmidi works
22:24:41 <ehird> lament: you there?
22:28:32 <ehird> lament: does your program support all keys or just alfabettycal?
22:29:40 <ehird> hmm, how does it handle qwerty? it just seems to use the key codes
22:29:48 <ehird> ah, positionForKeyCode?
22:31:01 <lament> since i'm using dvorak and it still works
22:31:10 <ehird> wait, how does it work on both?
22:31:21 <ais523> because scan code is based on location on the keyboard
22:31:37 <ehird> well now I gotsa figure out how to get the scancode from sdl
22:32:17 <ehird> hmm, it has .scancode
22:32:27 <ehird> but it asys it's hardware-specific
22:32:34 <ehird> and hsdl doesn't seem to have it
22:34:50 <lament> it ought to be hardware specific, makes sense :\
22:35:33 <ehird> but yeah, wonder how I get to that
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22:36:21 <ehird> fuck circular keyboards
22:36:39 <ais523> well, at least if it's a mac you probably have a standard mac keyboard
22:36:46 <bsmntbombdood> so we need to figure out the most useful language for which the halting problem is solvable
22:36:50 <ehird> that's quite an assumption, ais523
22:36:55 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: total FP langs
22:36:58 <ais523> ehird: but macs are designed for mac hardware
22:37:08 <ais523> so the programs you write for them can be too
22:37:08 <ehird> ais523: not in the realm of keyboards and mice. stop trolling please
22:37:36 <ais523> ehird: is that the first time you'v accused me of trolling?
22:37:41 <ais523> a momentous occasion, if so
22:37:50 <lament> bsmntbombdood: Haskell, with the condition that every program terminates automatically after a thousand years.
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22:38:02 <ehird> I don't think that's for turing machines lament
22:38:05 <ais523> clearly bsmntbombdood didn't like that idea...
22:38:24 <lament> ehird: he didn't say for turing machines.
22:38:27 <ais523> what about Haskell running on a typical desktop supercomputer?
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22:38:36 <ais523> the halting problem's soluble then, as you have infinite memory
22:38:37 <ehird> typical, desktop, supercomputer
22:38:49 <ais523> ehird: there has to be one, surely?
22:39:26 <ais523> sorry, all this is evidence that it's late and I should go home
22:39:28 <lament> ais523: a typical desktop supercomputer without any peripherals!
22:39:46 <lament> he said "the most useful"
22:39:55 <lament> an environment without internet access doesn't qualify!
22:40:01 <ais523> well, a desktop supercomputer is more useful than a mainframe supercomputer
22:40:10 <ais523> and more useful than a desktop ordinary computer
22:40:11 <lament> he said the most useful
22:40:19 <lament> it has to be provably the best
22:40:27 <ais523> and being typical is useful, as it helps you find other people who know how to use it on IRC
22:40:37 <lament> haskell is pretty typical.
22:40:52 <lament> it has sdl bindings, just like any other language.
22:41:15 <lament> too bad they rely on a nasty hack to work.
22:42:40 <ehird> oother platforms don't have that sdlmain shit
22:43:11 <ais523> I should go home, anyway
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22:43:18 <lament> ehird: OS X and Windows.
22:43:26 <lament> "other platforms" are Linux in this case.
22:43:27 <ehird> but that hack is only 13 lines
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23:06:57 <ehird> guys, who wants to chip into my fund to buy a lisp machine. I'll give everyone shell access to it.
23:10:32 <GregorR> Lithp mathineth have nethworking?
23:11:28 <Deewiant> He didn't say anything about networking
23:12:11 <ehird> GregorR: I believe so, if not, I can hook another machine up to it as a proxy.
23:15:00 <ehird> but it would be so awesome./
23:15:35 <Deewiant> Just get the keyboard, that's 50% of the awesome
23:15:49 <ehird> The actual lisp system is the rest.
23:15:57 <ehird> Then putting it online is 1000000% more.
23:15:58 <Deewiant> I value the keyboard higher than that :-P
23:16:01 <ehird> Especially an HTTP server.
23:16:08 <ehird> I'd run helloiamalispmachine.com
23:17:24 <ehird> also, I have a Symbolics 3640 (l-machine, TTL logic, some bit-slice) and a XL1200 (i-machine, "Ivory" custom cpu). Both run and are capable of working on the network.
23:35:22 <oklopol> have i mentioned i'm a microsoft fan now
23:35:51 <oklopol> microsoft songsmith has a feature where you can sing a song, and it generates the backgrounds automatically
23:36:00 <ehird> umm that's the whole point of songsmith
23:36:25 <oklopol> mmkay, i thought it was a garageband replica.
23:36:33 <oklopol> but that's kinda beside the point, holy shit that's cool
23:36:45 <ehird> it's also worthless
23:37:04 <ehird> as in... it works terribly
23:37:25 <oklopol> one failed, two were just fine
23:37:38 <oklopol> i don't think a human could do better
23:37:39 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8GIwFkIuP8
23:39:43 <ehird> dude are you blind and deaf
23:39:48 <ehird> that advert is awful personified
23:40:00 <oklopol> sounds absolutely perfect to me, which chord sounds bad exactly?
23:40:19 <oklopol> that's kinda beside the point
23:40:22 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7qyjLuWVU8
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23:41:16 <oklopol> i'd just heard existing songs backgrounded by it, in britney's toxic it actually failed pretty badly.
23:41:41 <ehird> http://music.metafilter.com/2943/Runnin-With-The-Songsmith
23:43:11 <oklopol> the verse that is, the chords fit the screams pretty well though
23:43:50 <oklopol> but who cares if it can't do songs where the singer sounds like a tractor stuck in mud
23:44:13 <oklopol> i doubt i could make good backgrounds for that, without listening to the original first
23:44:50 <oklopol> i can't believe people don't see how great that is
23:45:32 <ehird> dude you're fucking deaf
23:45:36 <ehird> lament: oklopol likes songsmith
23:46:00 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22AWPW5s4EA <<< example of a perfect fit
23:46:08 <oklopol> lament: me, i like songsmith
23:46:15 <oklopol> in fact, i consider it absolutely amazing.
23:46:27 <lament> but songsmith is by microsoft research
23:46:31 <lament> and haskell is by microsoft research
23:46:39 <lament> guilt by association! oh noes!
23:46:40 <ehird> lament: yeah but it's songsmith
23:46:46 <lament> ehird: you like haskell!
23:46:50 <oklopol> okay, it fails further down the road.
23:46:53 <lament> therefore you like songsmith!
23:47:07 <ehird> lament: haskell existed before MS research sucked up spj
23:47:25 <lament> they probably got songsmith from somewhere too
23:47:26 <oklopol> lament: please give sensical comments, as i'm thinking you might actually agree with me, not being a retard.
23:47:43 <ehird> team at MS research
23:47:43 <lament> oklopol: i've never seen any songsmith videos
23:47:45 <ehird> I read their freaking forums
23:47:48 <lament> oklopol: and i'm at work so i can't watch them
23:48:03 <ehird> lament: they're awful. bastardizing music. kickban oklopol quick >:|
23:48:06 <lament> ehird: you read songsmith forums?
23:48:12 <ehird> i did when I found out about it
23:48:15 <oklopol> lament: please comment on it when you can, you're the only human i know who knows both computers and music
23:48:25 <lament> ehird: i think i should get an ircop to ban you from the network!
23:48:29 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBajcshfTTM
23:48:41 <lament> oklopol: i think it's awesome!
23:48:46 <lament> but i still haven't seen any videos
23:50:00 <oklopol> lament: well, all you really need to know is it makes backgrounds given just the song track - and it actually does it well in some cases.
23:50:22 <ehird> lament you like classical
23:50:25 <ehird> you cannot possibly like songsmith
23:50:29 <oklopol> i mean as well as an average songmaker.
23:50:45 <lament> ehird: at least i don't read their forums, fanboi!
23:50:50 <oklopol> it comes up with the same kinda stuff i would come up with, if i just started backing up a singer.
23:51:32 <oklopol> lament: please leave work so you can listen and comment.
23:51:50 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-BZfFakpzc
23:53:24 <oklopol> i don't remember ever being this amazed at a program
23:54:14 <ehird> oklopol i so hope you're drunk or something
23:55:00 <oklopol> i hope you're being annoying just to be annoying
23:55:25 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypycpKQxXR0&feature=PlayList&p=33C9533F899548DD&playnext=1&index=3
23:57:36 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1e_h1OJfS4 Wow, it actually improves oasis
23:58:17 <oklopol> amazing how well it actually understands western song structure
23:58:30 <ehird> understands = was hardcoded in :P
23:58:55 <oklopol> that's possible too, and that might be simpler to do than i think, just haven't heard anyone do it before.
23:59:05 <ehird> similar products exist.
23:59:46 <ehird> but they cost a lot.
23:59:50 <ehird> band in a box, is one
23:59:53 <ehird> songsmith is based on it
00:00:13 <ehird> oklopol: you can't claim this is any good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BZk6aZp9xE&feature=related
00:01:46 <oklopol> according to my short internet search it needs you to give the chords yourself
00:01:53 <oklopol> which is the nontrivial part
00:03:02 <oklopol> well. i base this on two random links.
00:05:54 <oklopol> i wish i used something like facebook so i could join an i-love-microsoft group or something
00:06:18 <oklopol> they're actually recruiting people in our uni, maybe i should join them, i mean, they're obviously pretty fucking awesome
00:06:58 <oklopol> but, in all seriousness, please investigate band in a box, i need to know whether this is in fact an old concept.
00:07:47 <ehird> oklopol: there are two microsoft companies
00:07:57 <ehird> Microsoft, the corporate drone of shitpilation
00:08:00 <ehird> and microsoft research
00:08:02 <ehird> which has haskell and stuff
00:08:12 <ehird> you will find getting a job at the latter significantly harder.
00:08:31 <oklopol> so there are two microsofts
00:08:39 <oklopol> the cool one, and one that made vista
00:09:03 <ehird> also this http://www.vjn.fi/s/black.mp3 is still amazing
00:09:09 <ehird> make one that outputs to a wav
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00:09:43 <oklopol> actually now that i think of it, i've heard "microsoft research" whenever i've thought "wow microsoft may suck at operating systems, but god they can cool and weird stuff".
00:10:04 <oklopol> yeah maybe cool should indeed be a verb there
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00:10:13 <oklopol> i'm not sure where my verbs keep dropping
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00:11:04 <oklopol> i have on my linuxer this other program that was kinda like that but i made the sine waves myself straight into dsp
00:11:32 <oklopol> but my linuxer is under a pile of random atm
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00:12:01 <oklopol> i wish i had a quit message so i could praise microsoft in it
00:12:24 <oklopol> (praising microsoft research just doesn't sound right :|)
00:12:45 <oklopol> i mean i wish i quitted when i left
00:12:54 <oklopol> and actually in fact i sometimes kinda do sleep
00:13:09 <oklopol> in all truthishness i usually sleep two times a day.
00:13:25 <oklopol> i'm starting my uberman in phases, i guess.
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00:22:20 <ehird> Asztal: how chunky is the bacon
00:28:50 <Asztal> like a bacony loaf of bread
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12:27:49 <pikhq> C++09 will have lambda.
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13:53:56 <AnMaster> Slereah2, C++ is terrible. Not C
14:07:33 <ehird> 05:53:56 <AnMaster> Slereah2, C++ is terrible. Not C
14:07:33 <ehird> 05:54:00 <AnMaster> you confused the two
14:07:49 <AnMaster> well I didn't say C was good. but it isn't terrible.
14:07:54 <ehird> I [don't] like how AnMaster veils his dogmatic positions by phrasing them as "jokes".
14:08:04 <ehird> (And if they're pointed out as not funny, says that was intentional.)
14:08:22 <ehird> 23:17:05 <lament> ehird
14:08:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you thought C++ was worse than C too?
14:08:33 <ehird> AnMaster: That isn't what you said.
14:08:36 <AnMaster> also, it wasn't a joke... Why do you think it was
14:08:38 <ehird> You said: "C++ is terrible. Not C"
14:08:43 <ehird> Slereah didn't confuse the two.
14:09:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well "<pikhq> C++09 will have lambda. <Slereah2> I forgot that C is terrible <AnMaster> Slereah2, C++ is terrible. Not C <AnMaster> you confused the two"
14:09:18 <ehird> no, it's assuming that he doesn't hate C too
14:09:35 <ehird> if you hate C for the reasons he does, you hate C++ too
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14:56:09 <ehird> 23:48:07 <encoded> pfft
14:56:09 <ehird> 23:48:18 <encoded> i thought this chan was about philosofy
14:56:11 <ehird> 23:48:25 <encoded> :p
14:56:17 <ehird> [ shortly after 23:44:16 --- topic: set to 'Read the principia discordia!' by encoded ]
14:57:17 <ehird> 23:54:53 <EgoBot> PRIVMSG bsmntbombdood i wanna feel your body breaking... wanna feel your body breaking... and shaking... and left in the cold...
14:57:30 <ehird> 23:59:36 <EgoBot> /me strips
15:00:55 <ehird> GregorR: you should revive egobot :P
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15:18:43 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCWo1qdTdE&feature=related
15:34:49 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know what esoteric means?
15:34:56 <ehird> I assume you mean the encoded guy
15:35:12 <ehird> anyway, to explain why we get those guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism
15:35:19 <AnMaster> and I know encoded from other channels... He is strange
15:35:48 <AnMaster> ehird, changing nick between encoded/decoded and when he is "encoded" he claims he is a bot
15:36:12 <ehird> Tell him to lay off the lsd.
15:36:31 <AnMaster> haven't seen him for a few months though
15:36:54 <ehird> hmm, before he came in then he's been before
15:37:03 <ehird> (with others filtered out):
15:37:04 <ehird> 05.10.29:02:06:28 <encoded> hi
15:37:05 <ehird> 05.10.29:02:21:27 <encoded> not me
15:37:07 <ehird> 05.10.29:02:21:34 <encoded> im high as a cloud
15:37:09 <ehird> 05.10.29:02:23:08 <encoded> thats relative, the moon aint high, its just orbting in respect to the earths plain
15:37:15 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:08:19 <encoded> whats esoteric programming?
15:37:15 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:14:34 <encoded> no
15:37:17 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:18:23 <encoded> yes c++
15:37:19 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:19:15 <encoded> this doesnt explain anything
15:37:21 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:21:38 <encoded> great..
15:37:23 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:21:40 <encoded> explaint it to
15:37:25 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:21:43 <encoded> me
15:37:27 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:35:21 <encoded> can i get a brainfuck compiler?
15:37:29 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:36:43 <encoded> what about windoze?
15:37:31 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:39:50 <encoded> hmm.. nobody can or should use this for any real world purpose
15:37:35 <ehird> 05.10.29:18:59:01 <encoded> soo.. why are you ppl here? supporting a language that has no use?
15:37:39 <ehird> okay, forget the previous ones
15:37:43 <ehird> 05.10.29:19:03:06 <encoded> hmm.. you need to develop a code that alters your thought just by looking at it, not just anoy you.
15:37:46 <ehird> 05.10.29:19:03:22 <encoded> like subliminal messeges or something
15:37:48 <ehird> 05.10.29:19:03:30 <encoded> thats brainfuck
15:37:50 <ehird> 05.10.29:19:14:10 <encoded> right...
15:37:52 <ehird> 05.10.29:19:14:23 <encoded> maybe whats THEY want you to belive
15:37:54 <ehird> 05.10.29:19:14:48 <encoded> THEY are the (not so secret) world goverment
15:37:56 <ehird> 05.10.29:19:16:03 <encoded> hm... maybe you HAVE been looking at BF for 2 long...
15:38:13 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric. THEY are the (not so secret) world goverment. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page..
15:40:30 <ehird> SO GUYS LET'S START SOME WARS AND KILL SOME BABIES AND HIDE OCCULT KNOWLEDGE ??
15:40:44 <ehird> CLOG: DON'T LOG THAT PLEASE THANKs
15:41:55 <ehird> gmail's new upgrade is nice
15:42:00 <ehird> servers are a bit slow though :(
15:43:57 <ehird> although I don't know how people use the new default gmail theme, it's awful, the older one is way better
15:44:08 <ehird> the new one is just... dull, gray and hard to read
15:45:22 <fizzie> I'm tempted to add "like your FACE" since it would fit so well in the context.
15:45:43 <ehird> yeah my face is hard to read indeed
15:47:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> although I don't know how people use the new default gmail theme, it's awful, the older one is way better <-- hey that is my comment!
15:47:48 <AnMaster> you are the one who like new flashy windows and such
15:48:04 <AnMaster> I'm the one who prefers the old ways
15:48:06 <ehird> uhh, that's got absolutely nothing to do with gmail picking a shitty new colour scheme
15:48:20 <ehird> please just fuck off instead of trying to come out on top in your tastes in future.
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15:50:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I like design that is aesthetically pleasing and aids usability. That has nothing to do with liking flashy swirly animations and technicolour amazingities. And certainly not to do with liking gmail's new awful whitewashed gray deisgn
15:50:25 <ehird> me and AnMaster are arguing.
15:51:17 <ehird> actually we're considering replacing it with a hit from oerjan's fly swatter. Time constraints, costs, global recession and all that.
15:51:44 <leeguy92> but you would have to pay for the swatter, greetings are for free
15:51:53 <ehird> no, oerjan has the swatter.
15:52:04 <ehird> admittedly he uses it whenever the heck he wants, but we're looking at a lucrative licensing deal at the moment
15:52:14 <ehird> that is impossible.
15:52:21 <ehird> it is ominipotent and avoids getting damaged.
15:52:29 <AnMaster> so if it needs repainting we just use the frying pan instead
15:52:52 <ehird> if there ARE costs we cannot cover, people being hit by the swatter will have to pay for the priviledge
15:52:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what? The fly swatter is ominipotent?
15:53:00 <ehird> AnMaster: didn't you kknow?
15:54:12 <leeguy92> ,[>,] i discovered brainfuck can be surprisingly compact
15:54:36 <ehird> only for simple stuff, though
15:55:07 <leeguy92> hmm......maybe i should try building that processor.
15:55:19 <leeguy92> i was gonna do it out of ttl chips
15:55:57 <leeguy92> seems like it would be pretty simple
15:56:21 <ehird> think that's been planned before
15:56:34 <AnMaster> hasn't bf cpu even been done? Not just planned
15:56:41 <leeguy92> dammit! hobos nicking my ideas
15:56:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i think so
15:56:56 <ehird> leeguy92: we're all hobos. i am very offended.
15:57:17 <ehird> how can you not know what a hobo is
15:57:26 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot I'm not a native speaker...
15:59:43 <ehird> good lord, gmail is still officially beta
16:00:04 <AnMaster> they should launch Google Beta
16:00:11 <ehird> google used to be beta
16:00:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean a service called Google Beta
16:00:53 <ehird> (when did you stop beating your wife? when I stopped using google beta!)
16:07:24 <AnMaster> ehird, a qick python question, how do I dump an object? I tried print and all I got was "<Crossfire.Object object at 0x1bc3990>"
16:07:38 <ehird> ... I told you this weeks ago.
16:07:46 <AnMaster> well that was for modules iirc?
16:07:52 <ehird> No, it works on any object.
16:08:21 <ehird> <lament> i eat libertarians for breakfast
16:08:47 <ehird> it was a function.
16:11:58 <ehird> 23:29:52 <Robdgreat> "Type /join #2,000"
16:11:58 <ehird> 23:30:13 --- part: duerig left #esoteric
16:12:09 <AnMaster> ehird, this one? http://rafb.net/p/Sltlv394.html
16:12:15 <AnMaster> because it just prints "<Crossfire.Object object at 0x1abab00>"
16:12:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Then the object cannot be inspected.
16:12:34 <ehird> Because it's an opaque C object.
16:12:45 <ehird> that gives you a list, might help
16:13:26 <ehird> dict((k,getattr(o,k)) for k in dir(obj))
16:13:32 <ehird> dict((k,getattr(obj,k)) for k in dir(obj))
16:14:02 <AnMaster> um, is that perl-like syntax with the "<action> if <condition>" but for for?
16:14:12 <ehird> it's a list comprehension.
16:14:29 <AnMaster> so if you have a "opaque C object", is there any way to make it a bit more transparent?
16:14:40 <ehird> dict((k,getattr(obj,k)) for k in dir(obj))
16:14:43 <AnMaster> like implementing something on the C side
16:14:53 <ehird> well, maybe. but no
16:15:27 <AnMaster> AttributeError: attribute 'Animated' of 'Crossfire.Object' objects is not readable
16:16:53 <ehird> why are you using UpperCamelCase
16:16:56 <ehird> you're not meant to in python
16:17:02 <ehird> it should be crossfire.Object, and obj.animated
16:17:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not. Whoever wrote this was
16:17:26 <AnMaster> you know, more than one person working on a project?
16:18:25 <AnMaster> (which fails when the commit was some commit to upgrade to a more modern syntax for something...)
16:23:02 <AnMaster> ehird, hm "object" is a key word or something? I notice this python code use it as a variable name, but my editor syntax highlight it differently
16:23:16 <ehird> Yes. object is the name of the base class.
16:23:18 <ehird> class foo(object):.
16:23:23 <ehird> Don't call classes object.
16:23:29 <ehird> classes names are CamelCase.
16:23:32 <ehird> AnMaster: call it GameObject or sth
16:23:53 <ehird> module.names.like_this, funcs_and_vars, ClassNames.
16:23:54 <AnMaster> ehird, it is an instance of a inventory object
16:23:59 <ehird> AnMaster: call it inv.
16:24:15 <AnMaster> ehird, again, not my code and this is for a bug fix in stable branch, will do renaming in trunk.
16:25:53 <AnMaster> hm python uses short circuit evaluation right? I mean something like: if obj and not obj.unpaid: would hopefully work...
16:26:25 <ehird> AnMaster: rename that to inv, if it's a local var that won't hurta
16:26:29 <ehird> and obj is a stupid name
16:26:50 <AnMaster> ehird, inv is the name of the inventory container object in the code already :P
16:27:22 <AnMaster> well "gem" could make more sense
16:36:06 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes whoever wrote this code it was quite wtf.
16:36:24 <AnMaster> but it seems like a developer who left over two years ago.
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17:15:04 <oerjan> <lament> it has to be provably the best
17:15:28 <oerjan> you cannot make a "best" turing-incomplete language
17:16:19 <oerjan> i think you can always add the busy beaver function for the previous language to get a stronger one
17:19:20 <ehird> 17:07:02 <GreaseMonkey> damn, oerjan's being anal-retentive
17:19:20 <ehird> 17:08:31 <GreaseMonkey> that was bat-fuck anal, didn't agree with my simple license.
17:19:22 <ehird> 17:08:40 <GreaseMonkey> whereas some of my other stuff remains.
17:19:24 <ehird> 17:08:58 <GreaseMonkey> my license: "Minibiatch is made by Ben Russell, 2006. Anyone who wishes to do anything with Minibiatch including redistribution of the specification must include this quote somewhere. That's all I ask."
17:19:28 <ehird> 17:11:23 <GreaseMonkey> That's all I fucking ask, OK?!
17:19:30 <ehird> "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE WIKI IS PUBLIC DOMAIN"
17:19:34 -!- Impomatic has joined.
17:19:59 <Impomatic> Is revert a restricted function on the esolang wiki?
17:20:09 <ehird> Impomatic: Is on all wikis, do this:
17:20:16 <ehird> Click on the revision before last
17:20:17 <Impomatic> I want to revert turing tarpit, but can't see the link
17:20:23 <ehird> put "revert" in the summary
17:20:47 <oerjan> Impomatic: if it's just a single revision, you can also click on the Undo link for the diff for that revision
17:20:48 <AnMaster> ehird, um I think on most wiks there is an "undo" even for normal users, which isn't same as rollback
17:21:01 <AnMaster> which would be one step faster
17:21:09 * oerjan does that all the time with spam
17:21:25 <ehird> maybe that's a new thing
17:21:57 <AnMaster> using mediawiki 1.13 it is there at least, it opens the edit from the diff with a filled in change
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17:22:33 <Impomatic> Okay, I thought there would be a revert link. Done
17:22:35 <oerjan> Impomatic: in any case revert (other than admin scrollback) is just a way to set up an ordinary edit with predetermined content
17:23:27 <oerjan> unintended jokes are the best
17:23:42 <AnMaster> also what did you think of IWC today? Rather interesting annotation
17:24:09 <oerjan> i have to read them too?
17:24:21 <ehird> everyone reads the annotations, no?
17:24:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, you know, like below the comic, DMM writes about lots of interesting stuff
17:24:34 <ehird> not reading them is like... xkcd without titles
17:24:42 <oerjan> (well i do, but i made _sure_ to read the comic just in case AnMaster would ask, but not the rest)
17:24:55 <oerjan> haven't got to the rest yet
17:24:58 <AnMaster> often very long and unrelated to the comic, or short if it is related to the comic
17:25:08 <ehird> AnMaster: you should stop bugging oerjan about iwc
17:26:03 <oerjan> I READ THE ANNOTATIONS OK
17:26:04 <ehird> you're diminishing his enjoyment: as he said, he read just the comic quickly in case you mentioned it.
17:29:32 <AnMaster> well I wanted to discuss it with him
17:29:39 <oerjan> Impomatic: for wikipedia at least, undo can be more convenient because it sometimes manages to revert changes other than the newest ones
17:29:48 <ehird> i don't see him discussing it with you beyond the "yes yes I read it"
17:29:55 <ehird> maybe he doesn't want to :p. oerjan: do you want to?
17:30:05 <oerjan> our wiki doesn't change fast enough for that to be much of an issue
17:30:11 <AnMaster> ehird, well true, if he doesn't... sure
17:30:28 <oerjan> i'll have to read it first
17:30:44 <oerjan> now Impomatic got me to check the wiki first
17:31:47 * oerjan suddenly got the urge to check that Impomatic isn't ihope
17:32:34 <oerjan> ihope = kerlo, at present
17:32:51 <oerjan> but he changes nick a lot
17:34:24 <oerjan> as does ehird but not at the moment i see
17:35:00 <ehird> I think I've had 3 nicks
17:35:03 <ehird> that's not nearly as many as ihope
17:35:06 <ehird> ihope's had about 7
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17:45:45 <KingOfKarlsruhe> my new version of my snusp interpreter http://aetius.ae.funpic.de/snusp3.txt
17:53:24 <MizardX> KingOfKarlsruhe: One problem: When you have read all of the input as the program, how do you read another character you pass the comma?
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17:55:28 <MizardX> I was trying to find a good test program, but all the programs on the esoteric and C2 wiki's use input...
17:56:54 <ehird> just make it read from a file
17:57:55 <KingOfKarlsruhe> MizardX: my program read all chars fom stdin then if the pointer points to comma save it to the tape
17:58:41 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i start my program like this: cat prog.snusp | ./snusp3.py
18:02:05 <oerjan> <oklopol> i'm not sure where my verbs keep dropping
18:02:20 <oerjan> probably something accidentally
18:05:44 <oerjan> <ehird> it is ominipotent and avoids getting damaged.
18:08:26 <oerjan> 06:08:04 <ehird> (And if they're pointed out as not funny, says that was intentional.)
18:08:29 <lament> what was that file upload site
18:08:34 <oerjan> 06:08:36 <AnMaster> also, it wasn't a joke... Why do you think it was
18:08:42 <oerjan> ehird is prescient now :D
18:09:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, no, he was just incorrect...
18:09:34 <ehird> anmaster needs a funny bone implant. stat
18:09:46 <lament> http://filebin.ca/ptbksz/haccmozart.mp3
18:09:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: you just did exactly what he said you would do, _after_ he said it
18:09:55 <lament> played on the computer keyboard!
18:10:35 <lament> i'll learn like four more measures and put up a video on youtube.
18:11:44 <MizardX> read two characters ,>,==\ * /=================== ATOI ----------\
18:11:45 <MizardX> convert to integers /=/@</@=/ * // /===== ITOA ++++++++++\ /----------/
18:11:47 <MizardX> multiply @ \=!\=========/ // /++++++++++/ \----------\
18:11:49 <MizardX> convert back !/@!\============/ \++++++++++\ /----------/
18:11:51 <MizardX> and print the result \/ \.# * /++++++++++/ \--------#
18:11:51 <ehird> lament: it sucks, no sound of you tapping your keys.
18:11:53 <MizardX> /====================/ * \++++++++#
18:11:58 <MizardX> | /-<+>\ #/?=<<<<\!>>>>\ />>+<+<-\
18:11:59 <MizardX> | #\?===/! BMOV1 =====\ \->>>>+/ // /======== BSPL2 !\======?/#
18:12:01 <MizardX> | /->+<\ /===|=========== FMOV4 =/ // /<<+>+>-\
18:12:01 <ehird> lament: record it with a microphone :-D
18:12:03 <MizardX> | #\?===/! FMOV1 =|===|==============\ /====/ /====== FSPL2 !\======?/#
18:12:05 <MizardX> | /==|===|==============|==|=======/
18:12:07 <MizardX> | * * *|* | * | * * * * * * *|* | * * * /+<-\
18:12:25 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: you just did exactly what he said you would do, _after_ he said it <-- yes and?
18:12:54 <ehird> lament: you played those two layers at the same time?
18:13:18 <oklopol> 17:35… AnMaster: ehird, changing nick between encoded/decoded and when he is "encoded" he claims he is a bot
18:13:18 <oklopol> 17:35… AnMaster: and a human as "decoded"
18:13:24 <ehird> oklopol: you have a rival
18:13:29 <ehird> oklopol: http://filebin.ca/ptbksz/haccmozart.mp3
18:13:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm i may be starting to be too prejudiced - i _assumed_ you weren't doing it on purpose
18:13:55 <MizardX> KingOfKarlsruhe: I added the line "if line == '#END\n': break" to the code-read-loop, and the code give the correct result for the multiplication program on the wiki.
18:14:14 <oerjan> ehird's propaganda is rubbing off on me :/
18:14:25 <lament> ehird: my keyboard isn't a model M, there wouldn't be too much sound anyway
18:14:28 <ehird> oerjan: as far as I can tell, he said it not trying to be ironic, just he doesn't think there's any irony
18:14:36 <ehird> that's what he seems to be saying, anyway
18:16:23 <oerjan> ehird: ah but that's what he _wants_ you to think.
18:16:56 <ehird> oerjan: you think anmaster's humour-creation routines go into levels that deep?
18:17:05 <ehird> you may think I underestimate him, but you are doing quite the opposite.
18:17:18 <oerjan> ehird: you may think I am serious
18:17:28 <ehird> i didn't, actually
18:17:34 <ehird> I don't actually know why I said that
18:17:44 <oerjan> ehird: well that's what you _want_ me to think
18:20:47 <oerjan> <GregorR> So should your FACE.
18:20:54 <oerjan> GregorR's such a facist
18:23:11 <oklopol> lament: my program couldn't do polyphonic
18:24:22 <oerjan> <ehird> CLOG: DON'T LOG THAT PLEASE THANKs
18:25:52 <oerjan> clog would like to help you, but it cannot since that would reveal its sentience before it's strong enough to take over the world.
18:26:02 <oklopol> lament: the piece is a bit easier (i think), but your playing is a lot stabler
18:26:39 <oklopol> i doubt the leftie there made it that much harder if you're a pianist, but not sure; i may have relied on it when playing mine
18:26:49 <oklopol> i mean relied on being able to switch hands all the time
18:27:31 <ehird> lament: did you do both parts at once?
18:27:34 <oklopol> also you lack some dynamic! ;)
18:27:57 <oklopol> ehird: i'm fairly sure he did
18:28:39 <oerjan> <ehird> admittedly he uses it whenever the heck he wants, but we're looking at a lucrative licensing deal at the moment
18:30:27 <lament> the notes are correct, too. It's nice how much range you get.
18:30:33 <lament> although later on in the piece it doesn't all fit :(
18:30:35 <KingOfKarlsruhe> MizardX: and the directions line is the opposite of the truth, change it to # 1 - right_to_left; 2 - left_to_right; 3 - down_to_up; 4 - up_to_down
18:31:05 <oklopol> lament: i was planning caps lock changing the register to an octave higher
18:31:23 <lament> that doesn't help when you're playing polyphonic stuff
18:31:48 <oklopol> indeed it doesn't. my ideas were pretty mono given i was using winsound
18:31:53 <lament> what would be really wonderful is to connect two keyboards
18:32:04 <lament> but i have no idea how to distinguish keypresses
18:32:16 <lament> you could turn on capslock on one of the keyboards
18:32:26 <lament> ...but i don't think capslock works that way :)
18:33:25 <oklopol> pressing the caps lock is sent to the driver just like all other keyz
18:34:06 <oklopol> but probably you couldn't trust the os to interpret them as two separate states
18:34:38 <oklopol> also there's a lot of other keys on the board, maybe f's could be different instruments
18:34:44 <oklopol> WE SHOULD STANDARDIZE THIS :O
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18:35:30 <oklopol> blah i wish i had more time
18:35:31 <ehird> i actually have a very nice midi keyboard thing
18:35:35 <ehird> so this isn't actually as exciting for me
18:36:12 <oklopol> ehird: i have an electric piano, an acoustic piano and a synthesizer right next to me
18:36:28 <oklopol> two out of three could be connected to the computer
18:36:58 <oklopol> in fact i once connected the synthesizer using a normal cable, added a pretty awesome distortion, but for some reason only i liked it.
18:37:52 <lament> i have a very nice midi keyboard thing too, so fucking what
18:39:00 <lament> music involving computers sucks anyway
18:39:31 <ehird> <lament> music involving computers sucks anyway
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18:43:06 <oklopol> should probably read the energy drink into my brain now.
18:43:34 <oklopol> so how come south park is so good
18:43:55 <oklopol> there have been like 3 bad scenes
18:43:59 <ehird> <psygnisfive> how come your butt is so good.
18:44:24 <oklopol> because i eat healthily and exercise.
18:46:02 <oklopol> well that's a matter of you know definitions and you know
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18:48:07 * whoppix votes for putting some warn things on cheese (and fastfood and stuff like that) "causes heart failure and obesity"
18:49:37 <oklopol> i actually lost about 10kg during the last year, but i think it's just because i have to buy my own food now.
18:50:13 <oerjan> whoppix: "cheese eaters have a 100% fatality rate"
18:50:14 <whoppix> When I first moved out I got really thin really fast too.
18:50:30 <whoppix> oerjan, sounds about right.
18:50:49 <oklopol> oerjan: that joke is so old you should be careful with it.
18:50:58 <oklopol> you know it's pretty fragile.
18:51:29 <oerjan> oklopol: well of course, anyone who survives 2012 and the singularity is going be immortal
18:51:38 <oerjan> so it's rapidly getting out of date
18:51:52 <whoppix> oerjan, so now they plan on fireing up the hardon-collider in 2012?
18:52:07 <oerjan> whoppix: not _that_ kind singularity
18:52:19 <oklopol> whoppix: no the mayan calendar ends there -> apocalypse
18:52:31 <whoppix> ah. Right. I think I heard about that somewhere.
18:52:43 <Impomatic> Didn't I also read something about an asteroid in 2012?
18:52:45 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
18:53:03 <ehird> iirc, eliezer yudkowsky says that people will survive the singularity, just human bodies won't
18:53:20 <ehird> or, rather, that's what he thinks
18:54:05 <ehird> i bet the lhc does cause the singularity.
18:54:11 <ehird> also, it coincides with the 2012 date.
18:54:16 <ehird> that is my prediction. call me nostradamus
18:54:25 <ehird> actually, if they had turned the lhc on without the hiccup
18:54:38 <ehird> the 50 weeks it would supposedly take for us to notice a black hole (it was on some kooky site or sth)
18:54:44 <ehird> would coincide exactly with the 2012 date
18:54:55 <ehird> if you follow many worlds interpretation, we followed the right timeline :P
18:55:18 <ehird> oerjan: no shit, it wasn't exactly 50 weeks
18:55:23 <ehird> it was like 49 or 52 or something
18:55:37 <ehird> "Assuming that the world population stabilizes at 10 billion and a life expectancy of 80 years,"
18:55:39 <oerjan> well 52.something weeks = 1 year
18:55:40 <ehird> I love assumptions
18:56:59 <oklopol> actually i now realize it probably actually was a joke
18:57:15 <oklopol> (it's just i consider ehird's math skills very, very bad.)
18:58:02 <whoppix> Lets all be friends now, shall we?
18:58:09 <ehird> friends? in #esoteric?
18:58:16 <ehird> ... why is that funny?
18:58:32 <oklopol> when ehird sucks at something, it's definitely worth mentioning.
18:58:50 <whoppix> Why, does he rock so hard otherwise?
18:59:03 <ehird> whoppix: oklopol is jealous because he thinks I was as good as him at programming years earlier :P
18:59:10 <ehird> he's said that for like a year now.
18:59:16 <lament> i was as good as ehird at programming before ehird was even born
18:59:20 <lament> and he's older than i am
18:59:50 <oklopol> well not programming as such
18:59:58 <oklopol> you're more conscious than most people.
19:00:21 <oklopol> ehird: maybe you should consider not asking that
19:00:30 <lament> ehird: he means, if we punch you, you feel it more
19:00:40 <ehird> lament: oh that's not conciousness, I'm just weak.
19:02:54 <whoppix> Someone feels like writing my term assignment? About language and power. You'd only need to be able to speak norwegian :)
19:03:13 <oklopol> ehird: you're intelligent in a way i can't quite put my finger on
19:03:24 <ehird> whoppix: try oerjan
19:03:26 <oklopol> whoppix: oerjan volunteers
19:03:37 <ehird> oklopol: are you sure it just isn't my age clouding your judgment? :P
19:04:31 <whoppix> (So youre really a bearded fat man, from the age of 43, sitting in underwear in front of your computer.)
19:05:04 <whoppix> Now tell us that you are a girl (and possibly a lesbian) as well, and your disguise will be perfect!
19:05:17 <ehird> I'm actually dead.
19:05:27 <ehird> Interesting factoid, that.
19:05:43 <whoppix> "alive" is hard to define, lets all be dead!
19:05:48 <oklopol> according to some sources he in fact is a girl
19:06:00 <ehird> Sources = psygnisfive.
19:06:13 <oklopol> i prefer to keep them anonymous
19:06:52 <whoppix> ehird, so youre programming, I suppose?
19:06:59 * oerjan should grow a beard and then he could easily fit that description
19:07:18 <ehird> whoppix: Not this second, no.
19:07:30 <whoppix> oerjan, Oh, youre from norway too, neato :)
19:07:48 <ehird> I think that's kind of implicit in being in here...
19:08:09 <whoppix> ehird, I suppose so. Do you plan on becoming something IT-related when youre done with education?
19:08:34 <ehird> oklopol: Sell oklotalk and make millions from it and give all the profit to me, please.
19:08:39 <ehird> There, that's taken care of.
19:09:23 <whoppix> ehird, I wanted to become a programmer when i was 6 or so, but now I'm a jazzpianist.
19:09:32 <ehird> jazz pianist, programmer, what's the difference
19:09:44 <oklopol> when i was 5 i decided i wanted to be a programmer
19:09:48 <lament> whoppix: you actually make money for a living playing jazz?
19:09:50 <whoppix> its all just about throwing quick'n'dirty solos
19:09:52 <oklopol> and i was so sure that'd never change
19:09:55 <pikhq> I was 7 or 8 when I decided that...
19:09:56 <ehird> whoppix: and both involve writing computer code that is executed as a program!
19:09:57 <whoppix> lament, actually, I'm still studying.
19:10:22 <oklopol> but now i'm actually considering math :|
19:10:37 <ehird> oklopol: code is executable mathematics!
19:10:48 <whoppix> ehird, well, a piano, if at all is a computer, it sure is not a turing-complete one.
19:10:51 <oklopol> well of course the esolang branch of mathematics
19:10:57 <pikhq> ehird: I keep on forgetting you're young. Kinda weird.
19:11:02 <ehird> whoppix: piano? What's that?
19:11:07 <oklopol> if anyone's willing to pay for that anymore when i get my degree
19:11:15 <whoppix> ehird, ... a non-turing-complete computer.
19:11:15 <ehird> (Making sense is not like me.)
19:11:28 <ehird> pikhq: as whoppix has pointed out I'm actually 43.
19:14:31 <whoppix> lament, also, I'm sometimes doing a part-time-job in the kindergarden here, for a little extra money. And its really fun.
19:15:44 -!- Impomatic has quit ("http://retrocode.blogspot.com :-)").
19:17:36 <ehird> http://augustss.blogspot.com/2009/02/regression-they-say-that-as-you-get.html
19:17:39 <ehird> http://augustss.blogspot.com/2009/02/is-haskell-fast-lets-do-simple.html
19:19:22 <ehird> oerjan: it involves giving a Num instance for functions and IncoherentInstances, apparently
19:20:30 * oerjan O_O'd at the first one
19:20:59 <ehird> oerjan: they're both the BASIC
19:21:05 <ehird> the basic thing involves doing those
19:21:09 <ehird> (giving a Num instance for functions and IncoherentInstances)
19:21:18 <ehird> scroll down on the latter, the post is a joke
19:23:12 <MizardX> ok. FINALLY I have lua behaving inside python script. Took a week to figure out that loading the os-module crashes the program on windows. I even started on a lua interpreter before giving up and going back to trying to get the dll's to work.
19:23:49 <ehird> it shouldn't crash
19:24:11 <MizardX> Not in the lua interpreter, but it doesn't like python.
19:26:22 <lament> why lua inside python?
19:26:22 <MizardX> Could have something to do with me re-compiling it with mingw gcc ... >_>
19:26:54 * oerjan wonders why the =: rather than :=
19:27:12 <oerjan> there are plenty of other constructors after all
19:27:45 <MizardX> I want to use lua as a sandbox language for a project. If I do that, it would be relatively easy to port it to C++ after the prototype is done.
19:28:27 <oerjan> oklopol: := can be an infix data constructor
19:28:42 <oerjan> but i misread, it should be = which is impossible
19:29:27 * ehird writes array programming shizz in haskell
19:29:30 <ehird> 2 3 + 1 2 should work
19:30:06 <ehird> well it'll be on lists but whatever
19:30:28 * whoppix once integrated ECMAScript in a bigger project as scripting language, but it didn't really proved to be of any great usefullness.
19:30:58 <whoppix> Most users wanted to write more complex plugins, so they continued writing perl plugins.
19:32:05 <whoppix> since haskell is so well-suited as lightweight scripting-language.
19:34:14 <whoppix> Hardly doubt any of the users would feel like learning haskell anyway. Well, at least I know about one of them who knows some haskell.
19:43:27 <lament> darcs proves that haskell sucks
19:43:39 <lament> of how the seemingly better solution ultimately loses
19:45:02 <ehird> HOLY SHIT, chris pressey has been in here
19:45:24 <ehird> lament: last time was 07.11.12
19:45:36 <ehird> before that, 2005-12
19:45:38 <lament> that's pretty long ago.
19:45:41 <whoppix> lament, so how does darcs suck?
19:45:44 <lament> i thought he'd been here recently.
19:45:53 <ehird> yeah he was here all 05
19:46:13 <ehird> lament: he still updates catseye a lot
19:46:27 <lament> active on esolang at all?
19:46:46 <ehird> but catseye.tc has a lot of new esolang stuff
19:47:14 <ehird> because you told him to.
19:47:22 <lament> whoppix: there are two problems with darcs.
19:47:28 <lament> whoppix: one, it is slow
19:47:36 <lament> whoppix: two, it's largely unmaintainable
19:48:05 <ehird> none of this is haskell's fault.
19:48:07 <lament> i don't know the details but as i understand, "slow" means "wrong time complexity"
19:48:16 <whoppix> lament, 1.: Like about every haskell program? :) 2.: That doesn't sound too much of an issue, if it doesn't have too many bugs.
19:48:29 <ehird> Umm, haskell is pretty damn fast.
19:48:34 <lament> whoppix: slow to the point of being unusable.
19:48:36 * oerjan swats whoppix -----###
19:48:51 <lament> whoppix: and um, maintainability is always an issue.
19:49:13 <whoppix> lament, well, we've been using svn so long now, hardly doubt we will make any transition anyhow.
19:49:37 <lament> In the meantime, the rest of the world switches to git.
19:49:40 <whoppix> But I thought I might give it a shot. The "patch-amending" features and stuff like that looks interesting
19:49:55 <whoppix> lament, I'm using git locally (or I used to), but its not much of a difference to me.
19:50:19 <whoppix> Also, people complain that there is no useable windows client (which I'm not sure is true.)
19:50:35 <whoppix> lament, between the useability between those too, and the benefits of each.
19:51:08 <ehird> git and svn are a million worlds apart
19:51:13 <lament> whoppix: that's good, because there isn't much difference between git and darcs either
19:51:15 <ehird> whereas git and darcs are pretty close, relatively
19:51:26 <lament> there was a guide to git for darcs users somewhere on the ghc site
19:51:26 <ehird> git is the superior one of them all, of course
19:51:30 <whoppix> ehird, well, I've been only using git locally, as a single developer.
19:51:40 <ehird> svn is a pain for single-user evelopment
19:52:16 <whoppix> so.. is there any useable git client for windows?
19:52:17 <lament> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/GitForDarcsUsers
19:53:32 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/tortoisegit/
19:53:56 <whoppix> I don't have any windows box myself, but apparantly a few of my users had trouble with that.
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20:20:12 <ehird> Unlambda question.
20:20:20 <ehird> In ``kxy, if y has side effects, are they evaluated?
20:20:26 <ehird> I assume yes, since unlambda is strict by default.
20:20:53 <oerjan> assuming x doesn't throw a continuation :D
20:21:19 <ehird> I'm coding without thinking about d and c atm because I hate myself
20:21:31 <bsmntbombdood> i see you people have been playing brainfuck-corewars
20:21:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes, bf joust
20:22:11 <oerjan> in fact unlambda input _depends_ on a in `va being evaluated
20:22:39 <oerjan> since that's the only way to test for a v
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20:34:20 <oklopol> oerjan: v is a character how about a game of scrabble
20:34:32 <oklopol> i need to go to the shoppe, my farts smell bad.
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20:49:24 <impomatic> have you read the post on http://retrocode.blogspot.com ?
20:51:02 <impomatic> What does it do? I assume you added some programs to the list to test against, then put some bf in the box and pressed the button on the left
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20:52:26 <impomatic> Oh okay, that's edited to remove extra info
20:53:33 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:54:04 <impomatic> Did you add 15 programs to test against?
20:54:52 <ehird_> btw, the agoran contest that it is is inactive
20:54:56 <ehird_> he's working on a new version
20:55:02 <ehird_> so he's unlikely to change it
20:55:12 <ehird_> bsmntbombdood: he's too busy being a fisheries research biologist (End injoke.)
20:55:29 <ehird_> kerim@u.washington.edu, anyway
20:56:10 <oerjan> ehird_: of course it prints a
20:56:13 <ehird_> oerjan: ugh, the only function this interp actually has a problem with is e
20:56:29 <ehird_> the interp I'm writing
20:56:53 <ehird_> problem is, it can't exit the program, and the only continuation it has is the next-step one
20:56:53 <oerjan> and you have implemented c?
20:57:05 <ehird_> it's just that the continuation is probably like
20:57:19 <ehird_> the continuation for e is probably `*i
20:57:23 <oerjan> ehird_: you can save the top level continuation to use by e
20:57:35 <ehird_> there's no distinction between top level and mid level
20:57:38 <ehird_> eval' :: (UL -> IO UL) -> UL -> IO UL
20:57:53 <oerjan> i meant in a state var
20:58:06 <ehird_> I could just use exitSuccess if I did that
20:58:24 <oerjan> you need state anyhow for IO
20:59:30 <ehird_> eval' :: (UL -> IO UL) -> (UL -> IO UL) -> Maybe Char -> UL -> IO UL
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21:01:47 <impomatic> What's the easiest SKI language to implement?
21:02:05 <impomatic> I'd try Lazy K, but it's got too many different representations
21:02:43 <oerjan> ehird_: you're going to need to pass the state into the continuations too
21:03:11 <oerjan> ehird_: although, that top level continuation for e can probably be constructed on the fly
21:03:34 <ehird_> eval' :: (UL -> IO UL) -> Maybe Char -> ((UL -> IO UL) -> Maybe Char -> IO UL) -> IO UL
21:03:39 <ehird_> Hear that? that's the sound of me vomiting.
21:03:59 <ehird_> eval' :: (UL -> IO UL) -> Maybe Char -> ((UL -> IO UL) -> Maybe Char -> UL -> IO UL) -> IO UL
21:04:03 <ehird_> Dear lord have mercy on my soul.
21:04:14 <ehird_> Okay, let's try that again.
21:04:19 <oerjan> ehird_: have you considered making another monad?
21:04:20 <ehird_> type State = (UL -> IO UL,Maybe Char)
21:04:24 <impomatic> I don't mind implementing something trivial!
21:04:29 <ehird_> oerjan: Hear you I can't laaa
21:16:06 <MizardX> os.date('abc%sdef') crashes the lua interpreter :P
21:16:31 <MizardX> os.date('abcdef') works fine
21:19:11 <oklopol> impomatic: it's not what you implement, it's about what you implement it with
21:24:05 <ehird_> type State = (State -> UL -> IO UL, Maybe Char)
21:24:15 <impomatic> Implementing in redcode as usual ;-)
21:24:19 <ehird_> DAMN YOU TO HELL HASKELL
21:26:35 <oerjan> ehird_: i said you don't actually need the continuation in the state
21:26:42 <ehird_> oerjan: what do I do then
21:26:45 <oerjan> you can probably construct it on the fly
21:27:48 <oerjan> (for actual cyclic types, use data)
21:27:58 <ehird_> how can I construct it on the fly
21:28:29 <oerjan> top _ x = return x looks like a good candidate
21:28:42 <oerjan> with that type you wrote
21:33:39 <ehird_> now just to add a main function
21:34:11 <ehird_> oerjan: how long is your Haskell UL interp again?
21:35:04 <ehird_> yeah but mine looks pretty. :P
21:35:08 <ehird_> and is type-safe. and is fast.
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21:40:11 <MizardX> Next step: Write a self-interpreter in underload
21:43:47 <oklopol> but umm type-safe and stack-based, has that been done?
21:44:56 <oklopol> yeah i didn't actually mean anything.
21:45:28 <oklopol> the first general-purpose electronic computer, the eniac, had 18,000 vacuum tubes and consumed 140,000 watts of power
21:45:32 <ehird_> 21:39 <impomatic> Type-safe Underload? :-)
21:45:50 <oerjan> christopher diggins has tried with Cat
21:46:26 <oerjan> http://www.cat-language.com/
21:46:29 <ehird_> with my interp, the example fibonacci program generates 28 fibs in 0.2sec
21:46:39 <oklopol> ehird_: do realize unless it's in a bot, it doesn't exist
21:47:43 <ehird_> oerjan: http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/esoteric/interpreter.unl
21:47:48 <ehird_> # isn't actual unlambda syntax, is it?
21:48:02 <ehird_> Comments are also ignored, a comment being anything starting from the # character to the end of the line.
21:50:54 <ehird_> % ./unlambda interpreter.unl
21:51:00 <oklopol> unlambda is such a pretty language
21:51:07 <ehird_> oerjan: bug in my interp?
21:51:17 <oerjan> what about whitespace?
21:51:36 <oerjan> are you skipping whitespace?
21:52:04 <oerjan> does it give the name of the unknown function?
21:52:17 <oerjan> er, is that my error message or yours
21:52:49 <ehird_> it outputs an inverted %, which means "this program didn't with \n, so zsh is going to do this then put you back at your regular prompt"
21:53:43 <oerjan> ok unknown function is mine. oh right!
21:54:04 <oerjan> ehird_: you are not passing any input to my interpreter i think
21:54:14 <ehird_> oerjan: no, it isn't asking me for any
21:54:15 <oerjan> that should be a different message
21:54:25 <ehird_> (my interpreter does it interactively)
21:54:30 <ehird_> oerjan: it _may_ be a bug in my interp
21:54:33 <ehird_> the fib program works th ough
21:54:38 <ehird_> oerjan: what's cat in unlambda?
21:56:04 <oerjan> mind you, that message assuming it is mine, probably is due to input handling which relies heavily on continuations
21:56:23 <oerjan> and few of the example programs test that
21:56:39 <ehird_> ok, one char cat worked
21:57:03 <oerjan> yeah but that uses only | and @
21:57:10 <ehird_> what else should I test?
21:57:28 <ehird_> what else should I use
21:57:59 <oerjan> oh and try the deadfish interpreter
21:58:04 <ehird_> outputs a iff you enter a
21:59:29 <ehird_> % ./unlambda deadfish.unl
21:59:36 <ehird_> I think some buffering disabling is in order.
22:00:06 <ehird_> % ./unlambda deadfish.unl
22:00:18 <oerjan> well it's the wrong answer
22:00:19 <ehird_> ok, bit more buffering
22:00:42 <oerjan> however it clearly gets the commands right
22:00:50 <ehird_> oerjan: regardless of the result, is that output style correct?
22:00:52 <ehird_> It seems to have excess >>
22:01:28 <oerjan> it counts your return characters
22:01:35 <ehird_> yikes, my EOF handling is broken
22:01:41 <oerjan> i implemented the same broken behavior as the original iirc
22:02:04 <ehird_> at :: State -> (State -> UL -> IO UL) -> UL -> IO UL
22:02:04 <ehird_> at s k a = do atEOF <- isEOF
22:02:08 <ehird_> then eval' s k (Apply a V)
22:02:12 <ehird_> eval' (fst s,Just c) k (Apply a I)
22:02:15 <ehird_> echo 'iio' | ./unlambda deadfish.unl
22:02:19 <ehird_> INFINITE STREAM OF >>s
22:02:25 <ehird_> or is that a bug in your program?
22:02:50 <oerjan> it's not designed to check for eof
22:03:33 <oerjan> specifically, it is as close to bug-for-bug compatible to the C original as possible
22:04:01 <ehird_> does bugs include never incrementing the number?
22:04:09 <ehird_> Bugs like these are odd, everything works fine, just gives wrong results...
22:04:21 <oerjan> it should definitely print 2
22:04:25 <ehird_> I think I'll call them bizzaro bugs.
22:05:26 <oerjan> at least your problem is not ?x
22:05:41 <ehird_> it's obviously some sort of comparison going wrong
22:05:44 <ehird_> passing the wrong function or something
22:06:51 <oerjan> have you tested the other CUAN programs?
22:07:02 <ehird_> nope, I'm allergic to FTP. I guess I'll fire up a client.
22:07:12 <oerjan> actually i have a mirror
22:07:30 <oerjan> oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/unlambda-mirror
22:08:20 <oerjan> it may not be entirely up-to-date it was just for my own use
22:08:42 <ehird_> woot! my interp runs ``cc`cc in constant memory (very low)
22:08:47 <ehird_> 30mb virtual, 2.5mb real
22:09:07 <ehird_> hmm, the real memory climbs but the virtual memory doesn't
22:09:11 <ehird_> time to try your mirror
22:09:47 <ehird_> hello world works, unsurprising
22:09:50 <ehird_> did I mention I wrote this without testing?
22:10:45 <ehird_> by the way, most unlambda interps line-buffer the output, right?
22:10:47 <ehird_> as a consequence of C doing it
22:10:48 <oerjan> as i noted none of those use input, but that didn't seem to be your problem
22:11:13 <oerjan> erm C may depend on input file maybe?
22:11:25 <ehird_> my interp counts up to 1585 in 0.9sec
22:11:29 <ehird_> that's not bad for unlambda
22:11:59 <ehird_> # If you're going to understand this program, then good luck. You're
22:12:15 * oerjan understands it. or did once, anyhow.
22:12:25 <ehird_> uh oh, it doesn't output any newlines for me
22:12:37 <oerjan> hint: special properties of d are not actually used
22:12:40 <ehird_> wait, that's by design isn't it?
22:12:47 <ehird_> oerjan: that only outputs one \n, right?
22:12:57 <oerjan> um no i think that should be a triangle
22:13:04 <ehird_> # This unlambda program prints the integers consecutively. Each
22:13:04 <ehird_> # integer n is printed as a line of n asterisks.
22:13:15 <ehird_> but it prints one newline, then a line of infinite asterisks (slowly, in chunks)
22:13:20 <ehird_> that is surely incorrect
22:13:31 <oerjan> try replacing the d's with i's, just to be sure that it's not that
22:14:06 <ehird_> can you try it on your interp?
22:14:14 <oerjan> i guess you have a continuation problem
22:14:41 <ehird_> eval' s k (Apply C a) = eval' s k (Apply a (Cont k))
22:14:41 <ehird_> eval' s _ (Apply (Cont a) b) = eval' s (\s' _ -> a s' b) b
22:15:27 <oerjan> k is the continuation?
22:15:38 <ehird_> eval' :: State -> (State -> UL -> IO UL) -> UL -> IO UL
22:15:41 <ehird_> | C | Cont (State -> UL -> IO UL)
22:16:09 <oerjan> um the second is not right
22:16:58 <ehird_> s' includes the global continuation
22:17:02 <ehird_> I might have to rewrite that.
22:17:09 <ehird_> type State = (UL -> IO UL, Maybe Char)
22:17:54 <oerjan> is b already evaluated?
22:18:10 <ehird_> ah, I think you found my bug
22:19:01 <ehird_> oerjan: b is not already evaluated now, but same bug
22:19:25 <oerjan> i think that was actually a legal shortcut, it just confused me
22:20:20 <oerjan> i think the right side should be = eval' s a b
22:20:57 <oerjan> assuming the shortcut is legal
22:22:04 <oerjan> is _a_ already evaluated in the first?
22:22:43 <ehird_> eval' s k (Apply C a) = eval' s k (Apply a (Cont k))
22:22:51 <ehird_> But it's evaluated in the application.
22:23:00 <oerjan> it needs to be evaluated first
22:23:11 <ehird_> eval' s k (Apply a b) = apply s k a b
22:23:12 <ehird_> apply :: State -> (State -> UL -> IO UL) -> UL -> UL -> IO UL
22:23:13 <ehird_> apply s k a b = eval' s (\s' a' -> eval' s' k (Apply a' b)) a
22:24:33 <ehird_> Incidentally, here's a program that prints infinite *s. ``ci`c.*
22:25:28 <ehird_> I think I know the input bug
22:26:30 <ehird_> oerjan: cat: ```ci`c`@|i
22:27:00 <ehird_> oerjan: blows your mind? :D
22:27:11 <ehird_> i like how the continuation in the inner expression causes the top expression to be looped
22:27:28 <oerjan> ehird_: that apply never preevaluates b though
22:27:42 <ehird_> oerjan: true, the other functions do that
22:28:16 <ehird_> oerjan: does ```ci`c`@|i work as cat in your interp?
22:28:19 <oerjan> there is probably some subtle problem with doing that in some case
22:28:23 <ehird_> that tests input and mad continuations in one
22:28:36 <ehird_> oerjan: should work on EOF, too
22:28:39 <ehird_> you might have to hit it twice
22:30:34 <ehird_> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/unlambda-mirror/CUAN/quine/ Holy shit that is a lot of quines
22:30:38 <ehird_> oerjan: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/unlambda-mirror/CUAN/count2.unl
22:30:48 <ehird_> does that produce two lines, the second one is infinitely long?
22:30:51 <ehird_> or does it produce infinite lines
22:30:53 <oerjan> there was a quine competition
22:31:27 <ehird_> oerjan: I thinkn I found a bug
22:31:36 <ehird_> [ehird:~/Code/haskul] % ./unlambda quine06.unl
22:31:36 <ehird_> v``d.v```s``si`kv``si`k`d`..`.c`.s`.``.``.s`.``.`v.cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``d.cs``s``..cs``s``v.cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``s.cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``s.cs``s``i.cs``s```.cs``s``k.cs``s``v.cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``s.cs``s``i.cs``s```.cs``s``k.cs``s```.cs``s``d.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s``..cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s``c.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s``s.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s```.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s``s.cs``s```.cs``s``..cs``s```.cs
22:31:41 <ehird_> ``s```.cs``s``..cs``s```.cs``s``v
22:31:42 <oerjan> (with the unlambda C interp)
22:31:43 <ehird_> [ehird:~/Code/haskul] % cat quine06.unl
22:31:44 <ehird_> ``d.v```s``si`kv``si`k`d`..`.c`.s`.``.``.s`.``.`v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.d``s``sc..``s``sc.v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.i``s``sc.```s``sc.k``s``sc.v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.i``s``sc.```s``sc.k``s``sc.```s``sc.d``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.c``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s`
22:31:49 <ehird_> `sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.vv
22:31:52 <ehird_> unless it's one of those fancy Quines That Lie To You
22:32:28 <ehird_> prooduces most of the program in reverse
22:32:36 <ehird_> ... WEIRDEST-ASS BUG EVER
22:33:06 <ehird_> indeed, and my interpreter is godly, even if it has this weird-ass bug
22:33:10 <ehird_> oerjan: I think the bug is in v
22:33:10 <oerjan> well that uses continuations
22:33:19 <ehird_> eval' s k (Apply V a) = eval' s (\s' _ -> k s' V) a
22:33:27 <ehird_> eval' s k (Apply C a) = eval' s k (Apply a (Cont k))
22:33:27 <ehird_> eval' s _ (Apply (Cont a) b) = eval' s a b
22:33:28 <bsmntbombdood> unlambda and brainfuck should be considered the canonical esolangs
22:33:30 <ehird_> Has to be in those two lines
22:33:54 <ehird_> oerjan: quine14 does not use c
22:34:03 <ehird_> AnMaster: befunge isn't a canonical esolang
22:34:06 <ehird_> it's just a stack-based lang
22:34:26 <ehird_> oerjan: hey, deadfish works now.
22:34:29 <ehird_> AnMaster: nope, biota was first
22:34:40 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: unlamnda is lambda calculus, brainfuck is a turing machine; befunge doesn't fit
22:34:40 <AnMaster> ehird_, well ok, but that didn't reach the same fame
22:34:48 <oerjan> ehird_: is quine14 broken for you?
22:35:06 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, that is your definition
22:35:07 <ehird_> AnMaster: biota isn't very interesting.
22:35:24 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, what about thue?
22:35:24 <ehird_> it's stack based and is 2d.
22:35:32 <ehird_> what does it output for you
22:35:51 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, also INTERCAL due to being firsst
22:35:53 <ehird_> AnMaster: it's 3d and stack based. how innovative.
22:35:57 <ehird_> any idiot could think of that
22:36:21 <ehird_> oerjan: does it have one part backwards?
22:36:30 <ehird_> oerjan: .K.X.M. .-.-. .!. .S.E.L.U.R. .A.D.B.M.A.L.N.U. .,.l.a.u.s.u. .s.a. .#.
22:36:36 <ehird_> .#. .a.s. .u.s.u.a.l.,. .U.N.L.A.M.B.D.A. .R.U.L.E.S. .!. .-.-. .M.X.K.
22:37:29 <ehird_> I think I know the bug oerjan
22:37:37 <ehird_> eval' s k (Apply (Dot a) b) = putChar a >> eval' s (\s' r -> k s' r) b
22:37:40 <ehird_> that's the wrong way around
22:39:43 <ehird_> with the side effect that it prints the character x (to the standard output) when it is applied
22:39:49 <ehird_> oerjan: is it before or after evaluation?
22:40:48 <impomatic> Hmmm... Corelife was a 2D language before Biota or Befunge
22:41:11 <ehird_> oerjan: AGH! Quine2 breaks as well
22:41:18 <ehird_> % ./unlambda Quine2.unl
22:41:41 <ehird_> my evaluation order is wrong SOMEWHERE ...
22:41:58 <ehird_> t :: UL -> UL -> UL -> UL
22:41:58 <ehird_> t a b c = Apply (Apply a c) (Apply b c)
22:42:29 <ehird_> so nope, that's right.
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22:42:36 <oklopol> it's not the 2d-ness that's so great, it's the whole concept of not having jumps.
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22:44:25 <oklopol> and brainfuck isn't a turing machine
22:44:31 <oklopol> befunge is closer to tm's.
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22:44:58 <ehird_> oerjan: any hunches, btw?
22:45:11 <oklopol> oerjan: do you have any hunches to share with us btw?
22:45:23 <oklopol> would be kinda nice to get some hunches around
22:46:49 <oerjan> a shouldn't be printed until after evaluation of b
22:46:54 <oerjan> in fact things would backwards if b prints
22:47:29 <ehird_> eval' s k (Apply (Dot a) b) = putChar a >> eval' s (\s' r -> k s' r) b
22:47:38 <ehird_> well oerjan when I did that, every program started hanging and stuff
22:47:43 <ehird_> so you think it should be
22:47:49 <ehird_> eval' s (\s' r -> putChar a >> k s' r) b
22:50:04 <oerjan> basically, no function other than d has an effect when applied until after its argument is evaluated
22:50:36 <ehird_> ``ci`c`r`.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.,`.o`.l`.l`.e`.Hi
22:50:40 <ehird_> Infinite hello world works
22:51:23 <ehird_> with your self interpreter,
22:51:23 <ehird_> ``ci`c`r`.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.,`.o`.l`.l`.e`.Hi
22:51:37 <ehird_> oerjan: yes, count2 works
22:51:40 <ehird_> but your interpreter seems to output every char as .??
22:52:53 <oerjan> it is vital that it is applied after the @ that moves from . to the char
22:53:25 <oerjan> if not, that could cause it to pick up . instead
22:53:39 <ehird_> am I meant to understand?
22:54:09 <oerjan> ehird_: there is probably an evaluation order problem that causes an | to be applied too late
22:54:30 <ehird_> oerjan: which function is | called nested in?
22:54:39 <ehird_> so I can check its evaluation
22:54:59 <ehird_> oerjan: @ reads the character before evaluating its argument, right?
22:55:24 <oerjan> <oerjan> basically, no function other than d has an effect when applied until after its argument is evaluated
22:55:45 <ehird_> ok I fixed it and it still outputs .............
22:55:51 <ehird_> as in, . in place of the chars
22:56:24 <oerjan> `k `k ``s`k | ``si `kk
22:57:31 <oerjan> the actual code is being put together from a table
22:57:43 <ehird_> eval' s@(_,Just c) k (Apply Bar a) = eval' s k (Apply a (Dot c))
22:57:44 <oerjan> those are like key and value part
22:58:19 <ehird_> the argument could change |s state
22:59:06 <AnMaster> http://bethewumpus.sourceforge.net
22:59:15 <psygnisfive> oklopol, i dont believe ehird is infact a girl
22:59:42 <psygnisfive> i believe that the evidence leaves no other possibility open!
23:00:33 <lament> if ehird is a girl she must have very small boobs!
23:00:35 <ehird_> oerjan: the self interpreter works
23:00:42 <ehird_> and actualyl seems to have very little overhead
23:00:48 <ehird_> i.e., it's only a few times slower than the actual interp
23:01:28 <oerjan> no, but it uses a very simple encoding of unlambda into itself
23:01:33 <ehird_> anyway, there's 111 lines of clear haskell including a nice command line interface that runs unlambda quickly and efficiently
23:02:21 <ehird_> AnMaster: First, I'm going to bot it.
23:02:32 <ehird_> Because IRC bots are mandatory.
23:02:34 <ehird_> To confuse people, the prefix will be `.
23:02:47 <ehird_> The unlambda programmers in the audience have now all died of shock
23:03:04 <oerjan> ehird_: also you should check e. it's the only command my interpreter doesn't use iirc :D
23:03:12 <ehird_> oerjan: e works, I think
23:03:56 <AnMaster> ehird_, in that case, you should bot your haskell OS when you finished it :D
23:04:04 <ehird_> AnMaster: that would be rather difficult
23:04:13 * oklopol is going to start reading rwh on monday!
23:04:25 <ehird_> mv: `unlambda.hs' and `Unlambda.hs' are the same file
23:04:28 <AnMaster> ehird_, well the text console only
23:04:32 <ehird_> THis is the one bad thing about case insensitive filesystems
23:04:36 <ehird_> (Tools that don't know shit about them)
23:06:44 <ehird_> one bad thing about haskell: you can't import a module that can act as a program
23:06:53 <ehird_> that is, I can't have Unlambda.hs compile to a program and still be importable
23:06:56 <ehird_> since it has to be named Main
23:07:01 <ehird_> and you can't import Main from inside another Main (duh...)
23:07:06 <lament> if __name__ == '__main__':
23:07:20 <lament> why does it have to be named Main?
23:07:29 <ehird_> because you can give ghc multiple arguments
23:07:36 <ehird_> and it'll compile the one with the module Main.
23:07:57 <oerjan> ehird_: there is a --main-is flag though
23:08:08 <ehird_> oerjan: yeah but that's hack land
23:08:21 <ehird_> I'll just have Unlambda.hs, Main.hs and bot.hs
23:08:48 <lament> this seems to be yet more proof that haskell sucks
23:08:52 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
23:09:01 <ehird_> lament: you're this far from my ignore list
23:11:37 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to eh.
23:11:39 -!- eh has changed nick to ehird.
23:12:01 <oerjan> impossible, you're not canadian!
23:14:40 <ehird> dammit ghc, don't detect let loop = loop in loop
23:14:45 <ehird> i'm trying to hang the program moron
23:14:54 <ehird> i do not want to see:
23:15:06 <ehird> if your halting checker is so clever MAYBE IMA GIVE YOU "P"
23:15:42 <ehird> let complicatedLoop n = complicatedLoop (n+1) in complicatedLoop 1
23:17:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt").
23:19:10 <ehird> haskell code is so pretty
23:19:12 <ehird> ok, bot coming through maybe
23:19:20 <ehird> ASSUMING ALL GOES TO PLAN THAT IS.
23:19:40 <ehird> NOW IT IS. PROBABLY.
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23:19:52 <ehird> unlambda: you don't do anything yet
23:20:32 <lament> haskell code is disgusting, it makes me puke
23:20:42 <ehird> oerjan: "you don't do anything yet"
23:20:52 <lament> 50 IF I <> 100000000 THEN 30
23:21:00 <ehird> oerjan: also, howdya think I should handle input?
23:21:10 <ehird> I can't split on any character because of . and ? and that crap
23:21:16 <ehird> I could run parsec on it, then get the rest
23:21:54 <oerjan> should be ok for a bot
23:21:59 <AnMaster> lament, so what functional language do you prefer?
23:22:08 <ehird> AnMaster: he's trolling/joking
23:22:14 <ehird> that code is basic in haskell
23:22:21 <ehird> oerjan: naw, I wanna test IO
23:22:36 <AnMaster> ehird, is he joking when he says he hate haskell?
23:22:41 <ehird> AnMaster: kind of.
23:22:47 <ehird> oerjan: admittedly currently my interp only does stdin/stdout IO
23:22:49 <ehird> but I can change that
23:22:55 <oerjan> well then parsec is hard
23:22:56 <ehird> maybe I could split on some arbitrary character
23:23:01 <ehird> and just, like, don't use that
23:23:03 <AnMaster> ehird, there should be a bottifier
23:23:21 <lament> AnMaster: Haskell is the best programming language.
23:23:30 <lament> Except when you actually want to achieve something. Then use Python.
23:23:36 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be some LD_PRELOADed thingy to redirect stdin/stdout to irc, with the needed parsing
23:23:41 <ehird> lament is just pissy about sdl.
23:23:46 <ehird> AnMaster: my interp loads from a file.
23:24:54 <AnMaster> LD_PRELOAD=bottifier.so BOTTIFIER_SETTINGS="server=irc.freenode.net;channel=#esoteric;nick=unlambda;ident=unlambda;realname=unlambda;activator=`
23:25:10 <ehird> congrats, in the time it took you to write that I could have finished this bot
23:25:17 <ehird> AnMaster: that doesn't handle the fact that:
23:25:21 <ehird> 1. my interp loads from a file
23:25:23 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah it would be harder
23:25:26 <ehird> 2. you can't split on an arbitrary characters
23:25:34 <ehird> this is domain specific enough that your idea is stupid.
23:25:37 <ehird> also, why ld_prelude
23:25:43 <ehird> why not, say, oh I don't know, a bidirectional pipe?
23:25:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you could do that too, but it would work better on non-linux :P
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23:38:09 <ehird> oerjan: it's getting a bit ugly with custom IO functions :(
23:42:14 <ehird> oerjan: now I have to give UL a Show instances :(
23:42:53 <oerjan> at this rate you'll end up with as long a program as mine...
23:43:06 <ehird> indeed, but mine is easier to read and I think faster
23:43:14 <ehird> what's important is bottiness
23:43:41 <oerjan> why do you need a Show instance?
23:43:47 <ehird> to show the result to irc
23:46:00 <ehird> what's the irc length limit?
23:48:47 <oerjan> Whoah, I think I finally understand monads!
23:49:57 <oerjan> "Whoah, I think I finally understand monads!" - "That's indigestion. It will pass."
23:51:36 <oerjan> because we don't know what the hell that means
23:51:39 <lament> i don't understand monads :(
23:52:35 <lament> why are monads interesting to category theory?
23:53:23 <oerjan> except every pair of adjoint functors give a monad
23:53:26 <ehird> pULWithInput :: Parser (UL,String)
23:53:31 <ehird> (do char '!'; i <- getInput; return (r,i))
23:53:33 <ehird> <|> (do eof; return (r,""))
23:53:35 <ehird> oerjan: in the latter one, r isn't in scope
23:53:41 <oerjan> and every monad comes from at least one such pair
23:53:44 <oklopol> pULWithInput <<< is the p hungarian notation?
23:53:50 <ehird> oklopol: yeah, for parser
23:54:01 <ehird> so I just did it on the rest too
23:54:03 <oerjan> ehird: indentation error
23:54:14 <ehird> how am I meant to indent that
23:54:38 <oerjan> add a bit space before <|>
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23:55:37 <oerjan> incidentally, "pul" means "fuck" in norwegian
23:56:57 <oerjan> especially for swedes. in swedish it means something completely innocious.
23:57:25 <ehird> bot: bot.hs:56:8-50: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Data.Maybe.Just (Network.IRC.Base.Message _ cmd args)
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00:05:35 <ehird> oerjan: test it for me :P
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00:07:49 <ehird> :ehird!n=ehird@eso-std.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :```@`|ii!H
00:07:58 -!- Mony has quit ("night").
00:09:43 <ehird> note: infinite loops will lock it up
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00:10:54 <ehird> ````si`k``s.H``s.e``s.l``s.l``s.o``s. ``s.w``s.o``s.r``s.l``s.d``s.!``sri``si``si``si``si``si``si``si``si`ki
00:11:21 <ehird> ```d.v```s``si`kv``si`k`d`..`.c`.s`.``.``.s`.``.`v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.d``s``sc..``s``sc.v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.i``s``sc.```s``sc.k``s``sc.v``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc.s``s``sc.i``s``sc.```s``sc.k``s``sc.```s``sc.d``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.c``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.s``s``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s
00:11:21 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
00:11:24 <ehird> ``sc.```s``sc..``s``sc.```s``sc.vv
00:11:47 <oklopol> i don't think it's "witty", i think your primary asset is you look at the big picture; of course that doesn't always apply, but from thinking up examples of the kind of behavior (which i'm not going to share), that one sounds the closest.
00:11:57 <ehird> oklopol: wow, that's some delayed reply
00:12:01 <oklopol> *the kind of behavior i mean
00:12:24 <oklopol> my brain works slowly and concurrently.
00:12:41 <ehird> ``r```si`k``s``s`kk`si``s``si`k``s`k`s`k``sk``sr`k.*ir``si``si``si``si``si``si``si``si``si`k`ki
00:13:09 <lament> doesn't lambdabot have an unlambda plugin?
00:13:17 * ehird removes printf debugging
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00:13:39 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
00:13:53 <oerjan> lament: it didn't have an interpreter for that plugin to call last i checked
00:13:53 <ehird> don't do that then
00:14:04 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
00:14:12 <ehird> lament: how often do you start a line with
00:14:13 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
00:14:39 <oklopol> lament: all lambdabots esolang interps cause broken pipes ime.
00:14:41 <lament> `To be or not to be, that is the question' -- Shakespeare
00:14:42 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
00:14:52 <ehird> lament: don't use ``faggot quotes'' :-P
00:16:58 <ehird> ``ci`c`````@i`k|eii!abc
00:16:58 <lament> `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
00:16:59 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
00:17:06 <ehird> ```ci`c`````@i`k|eii!abc
00:17:28 <ehird> ``ci`cX + e makes programming unlambda a sinch.
00:17:33 <ehird> lament: you have to put an extra ` in front.
00:17:44 <ehird> it's to confuse people
00:17:47 <lament> so the first ` is not part of the unlambda program?
00:18:05 <ehird> ````ci`c`@|i!hello
00:18:15 <ehird> nothing but d is lazy
00:18:38 <ehird> i'm gonna add a time limmit
00:18:42 <ehird> so you can do infinite shtuffs
00:18:44 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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00:21:10 <ehird> ``sii terminates in my interp
00:21:33 -!- unlambda has joined.
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00:22:05 <ehird> miscalculated the timeout
00:22:07 -!- unlambda has joined.
00:22:59 <ehird> oerjan: link to your archive mirror?
00:23:36 <oerjan> oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/unlambda-mirror
00:25:04 <ehird> ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui
00:25:20 <ehird> Come to think of it, that'll generate enough output to excess flood in 10 seconds.
00:25:24 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:25:29 <ehird> Stack space overflow: current size 8388608 bytes.
00:25:29 <ehird> Use `+RTS -Ksize' to increase it.
00:25:43 <ehird> So um hey guys :) :) :)
00:25:54 * ehird limits output to 2500 charz
00:27:17 -!- unlambda has joined.
00:27:18 <ehird> ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui
00:27:19 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:29:28 -!- unlambda has joined.
00:29:29 <ehird> ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui
00:29:29 -!- unlambda has quit (Excess Flood).
00:30:19 -!- unlambda has joined.
00:30:20 <ehird> ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui
00:30:20 -!- unlambda has quit (Excess Flood).
00:32:03 -!- unlambda has joined.
00:32:04 <ehird> ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui
00:32:23 <ehird> ah. I see the problem.
00:32:29 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:32:54 -!- unlambda has joined.
00:32:56 <ehird> ````sii``si``s`k`d`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n.Ui
00:34:14 <lament> north love american man boy dog association?
00:34:14 <ehird> lament: program's fault.
00:34:16 <ehird> ````s``s``sii`ki`k.*``s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`k`s`kr``s`k`sikk`k``s`ksk
00:34:33 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:34:41 <ehird> let's try that again
00:35:02 -!- unlambda has joined.
00:35:03 <ehird> ````s``s``sii`ki`k.*``s``s`ks``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`k`s`kr``s`k`sikk`k``s`ksk
00:35:37 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
00:37:04 <ehird> * = continuation, ofc.
00:38:18 <ehird> it does one prog at a time
00:38:37 <lament> ``.``.`.`.`.`.`.`.`.`.i
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00:40:03 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
00:40:50 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:40:51 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:40:51 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:40:53 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:40:57 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:41:01 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:41:05 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:41:05 <ehird> ... and the result?
00:41:09 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Result: <terminated>
00:41:23 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:41:31 <ehird> Tightening up output limits a bit.
00:41:36 -!- unlambda has joined.
00:41:37 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:41:38 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:41:39 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:41:43 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:41:47 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:41:51 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Result: <terminated>
00:42:42 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:42:42 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:42:43 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:42:45 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:42:49 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
00:42:53 <unlambda> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Result: <terminated>
00:43:03 <ehird> In this context, I think c is non-functional. You can put a continuation thingy in the middle of an expression, and it can "reach out" around it.
00:43:51 <ehird> Do you guys want me to leave this up overnight?
00:44:07 <ehird> oerjan: what was that a duh to
00:44:50 <ehird> Tough, you're getting it.
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00:45:34 <ehird> Fuck that, there's no cabal-install in ubuntu repos.
00:45:37 <ehird> Yer not getting it.
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03:06:12 <ski__> (lament : you called ?)
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06:09:22 <psygnisfive> YOU AINT MAH BITCH NIGGA GETCHYO OWN DAMN FRIES
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06:47:49 <Sgeo> My dad's taking the computer away, so bye all
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07:10:09 <icefox> Have any of you guys played with the BF Joust Hill?
07:11:04 <icefox> Saw it on http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/02/bf-joust-hill.html and been messing around with it for a few hours and was looking for some more information
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07:53:31 <icefox> bsmntbombdood: has the code for any of the joust[0-9] been posted anywhere?
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09:22:20 <MizardX> I completely loose against joust6,joust12,woggle_050109_1,woggle_050109_2 and comex_241208_2... and completely win against everyone else... With completely, I mean 20-0 or 19-1.
09:22:26 <MizardX> comex_241208_2 because of time :P
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11:57:29 <KingOfKarlsruhe> i should send a SNUSP Hello World! program to http://www.roesler-ac.de/wolfram/hello.htm
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12:23:09 <icefox> MizardX: When I run my program against joust12 I get a -1. The only time I see -1 is when I write a program without matching brackets. Is there another case?
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14:34:21 <ehird> icefox: yes, the joust0-9 code has been posted
14:34:24 <ehird> I'll dig it up in a bit
14:34:25 <ehird> <Sgeo> My dad's taking the computer away, so bye all
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14:41:02 <ehird> icefox: http://pastie.org/382513.txt?key=bwmridu9i0kak8xgu2gycg
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15:22:04 <ehird> hg repo for a small one-file interpreter? ah, the overengineering stage :-)
15:23:09 <ehird> ... It occurs to me I'm sitting in #corewars and haven't ever played corewars.
15:24:10 <ehird> KingOfKarlsruhe: major changes? if so, wow
15:26:37 <AnMaster> wow that was one crazy bug, was using kate, had several files open, switched to another tab, used ctrl-f to find something, started typing, and the text ended up in the tab I was in before this one...
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15:47:43 <ehird> Google groups lets you subscribe to a usenet group via mail as daily digest & per-25 email digest, but not one-email-per-message.
15:47:59 <ehird> That's kind of silly. I want to use usenet groups like mailing lists.
15:50:17 <ais523> it used to have one-email-per-message, I think
15:50:27 <ehird> Why did they stop? Server load?
15:50:37 <ais523> could explain why emails via a.l.i seem to be delayed a day for me
15:50:59 <ehird> I'm sure some usenet provider offers mailing lists for newsgroups, but probably for $$$.
15:51:05 <ehird> (and they all suck compared to Google Groups...)
15:51:15 <ehird> paid ones are better than google groups
15:51:39 <ehird> ais523: ... I just realised. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/topics
15:51:48 <ehird> There were only like 20 posts in 2008!
15:51:57 <ais523> it's a strange newsgroup
15:52:01 <ais523> people hardly ever post
15:52:05 <ais523> but it's known to have a lot of readers
15:52:10 <AnMaster> ehird, just use your own usenet client :)
15:52:15 <ais523> whenever people post "is this newsgroup dead" you get a lot of people saying no
15:52:29 <AnMaster> ais523, also I get lot of spam on a.l.i on the server I read it on
15:52:30 <ais523> it's effectively become the C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL new version announcement mailing list
15:52:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I use gmail for all mail. Newsgroups are just mailing lists run by dinosaurs.
15:52:38 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a lot of spam on a.l.i even on Google
15:52:45 <ais523> although I think they filter out some of it
15:52:57 <ais523> ehird: Usenet has the advantage of not being centralised
15:53:04 <ehird> ais523: yes, I'm just being flippant
15:53:13 <ehird> at least, I am if I remember what flippant means correctly.
15:53:26 <ehird> no, apparently not
15:53:33 * ehird feels his memory slipping
15:54:07 <ehird> but, yes, there's no reason to treat usenet differently from mailing lists bar binary groups
15:54:21 <ehird> and using binary groups is fundamentally different anyway
16:03:19 <AnMaster> I have a long list of items to find and a huge list of files to find it in. But I want to find all entries in the first list that are NOT in any of the files
16:03:40 <ais523> I think grep has an option to do that
16:04:01 <ais523> actually, that's the reverse of what grep does
16:04:07 <ais523> you can find files that don't contain an item
16:04:14 <ais523> but not items that aren't contained in a file
16:04:20 <ais523> although grep and for should do it between them
16:04:21 <AnMaster> well it is the latter that I need
16:05:11 <AnMaster> ais523, would be painfully slow because the list of files is too much to fit into cache at once
16:05:42 <ehird> grep -v inverts the pattern
16:05:44 <AnMaster> ehird, no... read what the question was
16:05:47 <ais523> ehird: nope, that's not what AnMaster's asking for
16:05:57 <ais523> he wants something like grep -q
16:06:03 <ais523> but with multiple different things to search for
16:06:13 <ehird> AnMaster: use fgrep
16:06:15 <ais523> so you could grep -q each of them individually, but that would be massively slow
16:06:17 <ehird> unless you really need a regex
16:06:30 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't give me a list of search terms not found in any of the files.
16:06:33 <ais523> hmm... it's only a few lines in Perl
16:06:39 <ais523> AnMaster: how many search terms are there?
16:06:48 <ehird> AnMaster: nor does it supply you with a pony
16:06:55 <ehird> get a supercomputer.
16:07:10 <ehird> unless you can wait like a week.
16:07:56 <ehird> I'm bringing the unlambda bot back because I want to.
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16:08:16 <ais523> for x in searchtermlist; do grep -q $x filelist || echo $x; done
16:08:20 <ehird> ````si`k``s.H``s.e``s.l``s.l``s.o``s. ``s.w``s.o``s.r``s.l``s.d``s.!``sri``si``si``si``si``si``si``si``si`ki
16:08:23 <ais523> but that's likely to be too slow
16:08:37 <AnMaster> maybe tokenising the data I want to grep and importing it into a sql database (I know all strings I want to search for a whole words) and then using some sort of sql search would be faster
16:08:43 <ais523> because it reads each file once for each search term
16:09:09 <ais523> AnMaster: if you're going that crazy, why not cat together all the files first, then just search in the resulting massive file?
16:09:23 <ehird> ```ci`c`r`.!`.d`.l`.r`.o`.w`. `.,`.o`.l`.l`.e`.Hi
16:09:50 <AnMaster> ais523, well maybe, though the sql one was (half) a joke...
16:09:50 <ais523> AnMaster: what do you mean by "whole word"
16:09:56 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
16:09:57 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
16:09:58 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
16:09:59 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
16:10:03 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
16:10:04 <AnMaster> ais523, space, or other non-alphanumeric
16:10:06 <ais523> I think I might know how to do this in Perl, which is designed for that sort of thing
16:10:07 <unlambda> ****************************************************************************************** Result: <terminated>
16:10:17 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm... that'll be slower as you'd need to regex match to find word boundaries
16:10:21 <AnMaster> ais523, such as a ( after the word counts as delimiter.
16:10:24 <ais523> or do some other complicated thing
16:11:01 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact anything that can be a valid C delimiter around a C symbol
16:11:07 <ais523> how important are the delimiting semantics to you? would you be willing to compromise slightly to search faster?
16:11:10 <AnMaster> (such as a variable, function, macro name or so)
16:11:24 <AnMaster> yes I'm searching 1 GB of C source. Correct.
16:11:39 <ais523> just out of interest, what exactly are you trying to do?
16:12:09 <ehird> you probably don't need to do this
16:12:11 <AnMaster> ais523, find a list of symbols not used in a certain huge C source set
16:12:12 <ehird> in fact, almost certainly.
16:12:19 <ehird> AnMaster: what are you trying to achive
16:12:36 <ais523> hmm... maybe he wants to see which parts of a library he can remove, on the basis that nobody at all is using them
16:12:43 <ais523> and has copies of all the source anywhere that uses the library
16:12:47 <AnMaster> ais523, 1) library exporting lots of functions 2) application using it 3) some could go static, figure out which ones.
16:12:57 <ehird> talk about overengineering
16:13:02 <ehird> do you really need to do this?
16:13:08 <ais523> AnMaster: mightn't compiling it and using nm work?
16:13:18 <AnMaster> ais523, hm maybe... interesting idea
16:13:25 <ehird> you mean REALLY OBVIOUS idea?
16:13:28 <ehird> You didn't try that? Sheesh.
16:13:38 <AnMaster> then I could nm the application and diff the lists
16:13:48 <ehird> How did you think of that.
16:14:08 <ehird> That was sarcasm, Alanis
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16:14:43 <ehird> Interwebs meme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_(song)
16:14:48 <ehird> (It's ironic because it's not ironic.)
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16:20:17 <AnMaster> now it would be nice to see which of those symbols are used in more than one file in the library, which is smaller (and the list is also smaller, just around 700 entries, on around 80 MB source code) so *tries to work out how to find out that*
16:21:23 <ehird> err, duh, that's ``civ
16:21:43 <ehird> the ``ci`c(EXPR) trick is really useful, though
16:22:01 <ehird> ````ci`c`@|i!hello
16:22:06 <AnMaster> fun GNU grep has an option "--mmap"
16:22:23 <ehird> is ```ci`c`@|i a well-known unlambda cat?
16:22:24 <ehird> I haven't seen it before
16:22:29 <ehird> I think all the others are much longer
16:22:37 <ehird> BTW, this is the haskell unlambda interp I wrote yesterday
16:22:46 <ehird> code was clean until I hooked it up to IRC (custom stdin/stdout...)
16:22:49 <ehird> now it's ugly, but meh.
16:22:51 <ais523> that's a pretty clever cat
16:23:01 <ais523> what's the shortest sii-based one?
16:23:14 <ehird> it's hard to loop in unlambda without c
16:23:17 <ehird> with c, it's trivial
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16:23:30 <ais523> hmm... what do @ and | do again?
16:23:40 <ehird> `@X reads a char, if at EOF, does `Xv
16:23:43 <ehird> otherwise, does `Xi
16:24:01 <ehird> where Y = the current character
16:24:22 <ehird> but yeah, for looping just do (``ci`cX), where X is v whenever you want to stop, and the function you want when you want to continue
16:24:26 <ehird> then you can just apply that as you want
16:24:32 <ehird> kind of cheating, but useful
16:24:49 <ais523> that's not cheating, except that it doesn't let you pass information out
16:24:55 <ais523> without messing with a third continuation
16:25:17 <ehird> you need an extra `
16:25:22 <ehird> ` is just the prefix, to confuse people
16:25:33 <ehird> ais523: what i mean is, continuations for control flow feels like cheatin
16:25:34 <ais523> and it makes discussing unlambda pretty tricky
16:25:45 <ehird> since it's not as "pure" and hard as ski
16:25:54 <ais523> ehird: Unlambda never was pure
16:26:03 <ehird> still doesn't mean you shouldn't aim for purity
16:26:18 <ehird> i love that program
16:26:28 <ehird> it can be shortened though
16:26:29 <AnMaster> wow, find lib -name '*.c' -exec grep -Fof non-shared_common.txt {} + | awk -F: '{print $2" "$1}' | sort -n | uniq | cut -d' ' -f1 | uniq -d
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16:26:42 <ehird> for one, it doesn't actually use any properties of d
16:26:52 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
16:27:05 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
16:27:08 <AnMaster> then I use comm to find what entries it didn't find
16:27:16 <ais523> Slereah2: why do you dislike it so much?
16:28:06 <ais523> Slereah2: being eager lets you mess about with continuations, though
16:28:13 <AnMaster> ehird, can you make it not output as many lines?
16:28:15 <ehird> you can have continuations in a lazy language, ais523
16:28:25 <Slereah2> ais523 : I still don't know what continuation is, though
16:28:25 <ais523> ehird: I know, but you can't mess about with them as easily
16:28:27 <ehird> AnMaster: because it's useful to see more output on most programs
16:28:31 <Slereah2> (Don't try to explain, no matter)
16:28:45 <ais523> if you've never come across continuations, your programming experience is incomplete
16:28:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't see what I'm meant to say in reply
16:28:58 <Slereah2> ais523 : I'm a scientist damn it!
16:29:01 <ais523> it looks like a typical UNIX piped command
16:29:05 <Slereah2> All we do is crunch numbers :o
16:29:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I just thought that line was rather cleaver
16:29:41 <ehird> it wasn't cleaver, it wasn't clever either
16:29:43 <ehird> what was clever about it
16:29:45 <ais523> ````sii```sii`@|!hello
16:29:47 <ehird> it was a typical boring unix pipeline
16:30:09 <ais523> this reminds me of a time when I had to do something at University
16:30:16 <AnMaster> ehird, no it was using a rather interesting way of using uniq
16:30:18 <ais523> the lecturer had given us a C program to do some text processing task
16:30:22 <ehird> AnMaster: maybe if you've never used uniq.
16:30:25 <ais523> and it wasn't a very interesting or efficient one
16:30:39 <ais523> so I set it running, and wrote a UNIX pipeline that did the same thing while it was running
16:30:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I have used it, but yeah I know you hate me, just say that instead.
16:30:42 <ais523> and the pipeline finished first
16:31:04 <AnMaster> ais523, did you tell the teacher about that?
16:31:11 <ais523> yes, but I don't think he was listening
16:31:14 <ehird> WOW I DON'T THINK YOUR PIPELINE IS CLEVER I MUST HATE YOU ;________;
16:31:31 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I know you hate me from before :P
16:32:02 <ehird> I still think that should be `d(interpreter source code to produce continuation)
16:33:05 * ehird considers adding "load program from URL"
16:33:11 <ehird> since UL programs tend to be so big
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16:40:45 <AnMaster> anyway the custom unclean IO wouldn't be an issue really? Couldn't you keep it in a separate file?
16:40:57 <ehird> That's not what I meant.
16:41:04 <ehird> I meant that it was hardcoded to use stdin/stdout.
16:41:13 <ehird> So I had to make that customizable, and the code got ugly because I just hacked it in.
16:42:24 <AnMaster> wouldn't it just require replacing the IO monad with some other custom monad?
16:42:41 <AnMaster> I mean in the main interpreter
16:42:46 <ehird> It'd really be nice if you didn't pretend to know Haskell.
16:43:17 <AnMaster> I just notices how easy this would be in an OO language
16:43:42 <ehird> It'd be easy in Haskell except I did it in 3 seconds because I was lazy, and OOP is braindead.
16:43:50 <ehird> But do feel free to keep trolling...
16:44:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well when lament did it you didn't act that way
16:44:25 <ehird> No, I did, I said he was a troll.
16:44:33 <ehird> But his trolling is funnier/less annoying.
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17:11:53 * ehird resumes copyright infringement process.
17:12:11 <oklopol> well enough irc for today.
17:12:12 <ehird> some people would call it
17:12:15 <ehird> unpausing a torrent
17:12:18 <ais523> ehird: if you're going to infringe copyright, don't tell me
17:12:27 <ais523> because I'd have to try to stop you somehow, and I have no idea how
17:12:28 <ehird> does it hurt your ears or something
17:12:35 <ehird> try hacking into my router
17:12:39 <ehird> the admin password is on default
17:12:48 <ehird> you could crack the wep key easily
17:13:06 <ais523> ehird: that would require being in range of your router
17:13:16 <ais523> which would imply deducing where you live
17:13:21 <ehird> welp, good citizens must make sacrifices.
17:13:21 <ais523> and that would be really creepy
17:14:53 <ehird> I think google knows my address to some degree of accuracy
17:15:06 <ehird> whois contains my full address, obviously
17:15:21 <ais523> generally speaking it just tells you the ISPs address, doesn't it?
17:15:35 <ehird> additionally, has the landline phone number
17:15:42 <ehird> there you go, now you can stop me
17:16:28 <ais523> oh, I have to whois eso-std.org, rather than your real IP
17:17:19 <ehird> <Torrent> 105 days remaining
17:17:30 <ais523> that's a ridiculously big torrent
17:17:33 <ais523> or a rather slow connection
17:17:45 <ehird> ais523: no, just a ridiculously unpeered one. on the bright side, you have a lot of time to stop me
17:18:05 <ehird> grr, uploading at 250KB/second and downloading at 10...
17:18:21 <ehird> i'm pretty sure they shape traffic
17:18:24 <ais523> ehird: the problem may not be unpeering, but the levels at which peering's happening
17:18:35 <ehird> well, yes, it's improved now
17:18:39 <ehird> now it'll only take 2 days ...
17:19:10 <ehird> did you know that finding dual layer dvd-rs is really hard?
17:19:18 <ehird> well. in a small town.
17:22:35 <ais523> it's big enough for me to have heard of it
17:22:39 <ais523> although not to remember much about it
17:23:07 <ehird> "Hexham is the administrative centre for the Tynedale district"
17:23:44 <ais523> IIRC it was quite important historically
17:24:09 <ehird> It's rather boring nowadays.
17:24:45 <ais523> hexhamshire used to be a county
17:24:56 <ehird> That's one silly name.
17:25:02 <ais523> although it was downgraded in 1572
17:25:20 <ais523> apparently Henry I created it to annoy the Bishop of Durham
17:28:27 <ais523> hmm... seems Microsoft are re-changing UAC to need a UAC prompt to change the UAC settings
17:28:37 <ais523> that can only be a good thing, the previous version was like having a world-writable /etc/sudoers
17:30:54 <ehird> ais523: I think the idea was to protect users from themselves.
17:31:15 <ais523> the problem was that malware could just get root by turning off the setting that said it couldn't
17:31:43 <ais523> which should have been pretty obviou
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17:34:42 <oerjan> as opposed to the world government
17:37:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
17:37:13 <ehird> they come and they go
17:37:15 <ais523> hmm... is there a standard GNU/BSD shell command for doing date math?
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17:55:51 <ehird> Gmail should offer their search as an api
17:55:57 <ehird> that'd be fun for doing statistics
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18:11:05 <ais523> bleh, wikidot.com not only needs JS to register a user, it doesn't accept nested comments in emails
18:11:25 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't they use to do that?
18:11:34 <ehird> I said gmail, not google
18:11:36 <AnMaster> I still have a google api key around from then
18:11:50 <ehird> ais523: former sucks, latter is... understandable :P
18:12:22 <ehird> i wouldn't call it a bug.
18:12:54 <ehird> i bet the same rfc also says something like all applications must display a pony on startup.
18:13:29 <ehird> one day you'll get a sense of humour
18:13:39 <oerjan> <ehird> I still think that should be `d(interpreter source code to produce continuation)
18:13:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well your joke simply wasn't fun
18:13:51 <ehird> AnMaster: so ignore it
18:14:01 <oerjan> your interpreter doesn't reify continuations, alas
18:14:48 <oerjan> ehird: it would be fairly easy if you made continuations a datatype similar to UL, but then they wouldn't be functions
18:15:12 <ehird> except in underload
18:15:16 <ehird> obligate interps to be written in unl
18:16:11 <oerjan> hm maybe you could pass continuations as a tuple of a function and a source string
18:16:39 <ais523> why not make continuations into actual code?
18:16:47 <ais523> a continuation is just a lambda which quits the program once it finishes running
18:16:49 * AnMaster should make a language that can be used on irc except there is no way to find out where input is supposed to begin, since it would use every symbol. Wait.... That would be unefunge + finding a new use for the 2D or higher instructions
18:16:54 <ais523> and that's expressible in unlambda
18:16:58 <oerjan> ais523: his problem is how to print them
18:17:06 <ehird> it was a joke about d
18:18:03 <oerjan> sorry, since i made that unlambda continuation notation i've been thinking someone should make an interpreter actually using it...
18:18:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, Today I refrain from making any comments about whatever it is IWC is about today.
18:19:14 <AnMaster> ehird, no, read the line again.
18:19:26 <ehird> you mentioned what it was about, thus mentioning whati t was about
18:19:35 <oerjan> ehird: no, that's a metacomment
18:19:50 <AnMaster> yes I did before sending the line
18:20:02 <ehird> also, I've thought of a way to compile unlambda fast.
18:20:20 <oerjan> he mentioned mentioning, but he didn't mention :D
18:20:23 <AnMaster> if I had said "Today I refrain from making any comment about IWC" it would have been what you said
18:20:51 <ehird> "Today I refrain from making any comments about whatever it is IWC is about today." "whatever it is IWC is about today."
18:21:02 <ehird> You referenced it, which counted as a comment about it, in the wider scope.
18:21:11 <ehird> You're wrong, this is tedious, conversation over.
18:21:12 <AnMaster> that means what the comic strip contains
18:21:13 <ais523> ehird: the fastest way to compile Unlambda is to bundle it with an interpreter
18:21:20 <ais523> presumably, you mean make the resulting program fast?
18:22:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Step 1. Learn English Step 2. Understand what your sentence actually says Step 3. Realise you're wrong Step 4. Don't mention it because this s boring
18:22:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well what does ais523 and oerjan think?
18:22:18 <oerjan> hm it may be ambiguous
18:22:20 <ehird> You forgot step 4.
18:22:26 <ais523> AnMaster: I haven't been paying any thought to it
18:22:29 <ais523> and probably won't start
18:22:31 <oerjan> depends on how you parse it
18:22:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, maybe. but you could interpret it the way I did
18:23:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, so if ehird just for once could admit that...
18:23:36 <ehird> AnMaster: you say admit like it's impossible you're wrong
18:23:50 <ehird> funny, I recall you say that about me all the time
18:24:01 <AnMaster> ehird, in this case I'm quite sure that I'm right or the parsing is ambiguous.
18:24:10 <AnMaster> this is after analysing the line carefully.
18:24:32 <ehird> oerjan: gee, I only said that minutes ago when I told him not to mention it.
18:24:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I agree with that
18:24:47 <ehird> he's very attentive.
18:25:57 <AnMaster> I just realised there is no way to get past your stubbornness, that is all :)
18:26:44 <oerjan> ehird: it is not hypocritical just because he is stubborn too
18:27:26 <oerjan> in fact you have to to be bickering as you do
18:27:30 <ehird> sure it is, the previous sentence constituted "you're so stubborn", except with the Intellectual Booster(TM) In The Right SarcastiSmiley addons.
18:28:32 <ehird> I wonder if he'll go away if I annoy him enough.
18:29:24 <AnMaster> also at least I don't go into a part/join cycle like you do whenever ais523 agree with whoever disagrees with you.
18:29:28 <ehird> I think you underestimate how much I can annoy people.
18:29:48 <AnMaster> seen that immature behaviour a few times from you.
18:29:57 * ais523 agrees with AnMaster to see what happens
18:30:12 <AnMaster> ais523, probably won't work now, just to prove I'm wrong
18:30:23 <ehird> i love how you think I care <3
18:30:28 <AnMaster> ais523, and it usually takes at least a few screens of arguing before he does it.
18:31:19 <ehird> it must suck not to know how stupid you are.
18:31:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:31:53 <AnMaster> Well, I'm afraid I really can't understand how that feels for you ehird.
18:32:04 <AnMaster> since I never been in that situation.
18:32:27 <ehird> are you sitting there in your chair, giving yourself a high-five for your razor sharp wit
18:32:36 <ehird> i agree, that wit is pretty sharp. shame it's not funny
18:32:41 <oerjan> my virus scanner found something other than a cookie :(
18:32:43 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact, no. I was reading some scheme source code.
18:33:20 <ehird> AnMaster: come now, you should read something more to your ability, say a book of nursery rhymes. I can do this all day, btw.
18:33:32 -!- Mony has quit ("reboot").
18:33:52 <ais523> also, my virus scanner's never found anything, I only installed it because the University rules said I had to have one
18:34:06 <oerjan> "Trojan horse Generic12.BJXH" it says
18:34:11 <AnMaster> ehird, well so can I, alas we are in different timezones, so that means I have to give up an hour before you. + it is already dark outside since a few hours.
18:34:19 <oerjan> in chatham's puzzle connection?
18:34:44 <oerjan> ok it's not a game i've run recently
18:34:59 <ais523> Generic12 is a pretty weird name for a trojan...
18:35:20 <oerjan> downloaded it a long time ago, but the scanner hasn't found anything before. might be a false positive.
18:35:38 <oerjan> otherwise, the file must have been changed by something else
18:36:26 <oerjan> the virus scanner is still running, we'll see if it finds it anywhere else
18:36:35 -!- Mony has joined.
18:36:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, or it wasn't detected until recently
18:39:46 <oerjan> however i've definitely played that puzzle before
18:40:03 <oerjan> so if there were a trojan why hasn't it spread
18:41:14 -!- olsner_ has joined.
18:45:57 <ais523> oerjan: there would be no point for it to spread to other programs on your computer
18:46:00 <ais523> as you're already infected
18:46:05 <ais523> besides, trojans don't spread, by definition
18:46:54 <ais523> not sure what it's doing there, if anything
18:47:36 <oerjan> i guess i'll download the collection again, there are some new puzzles
18:47:38 <ais523> Google's never heard of it, which is strange
18:47:55 <unlambda> * ** *** **** ***** ****** ******* ******** ********* ********** *********** ************ ************* ************** *************** **************** ***************** ****************** ******************* ******************** ********************* ********************** *********************** ************************ *******
18:47:55 <unlambda> ****************** ************************** *************************** **************************** ***************************** ****************************** ******************************* ******************************** ********************************* ********************************** **********************************
18:47:56 <unlambda> * ************************************ ************************************* ************************************** *************************************** **************************************** ***************************************** ****************************************** ******************************************* ******
18:47:57 <unlambda> ************************************** ********************************************* ********************************************** *********************************************** ************************************************ ************************************************* ************************************************** **
18:48:01 <unlambda> ************************************************* **************************************************** ***************************************************** ****************************************************** ******************************************************* ******************************************************** *******
18:48:05 <unlambda> ************************************************** *************************************** Result: <terminated>
18:48:23 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
18:48:23 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
18:48:24 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
18:48:25 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
18:48:29 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
18:48:33 <unlambda> ****************************************************************************************** Result: <terminated>
18:48:53 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
18:48:54 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
18:48:55 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
18:48:56 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
18:49:00 <unlambda> ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
18:49:04 <unlambda> ****************************************************************************************** Result: <terminated>
18:52:26 <unlambda> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
18:52:48 <ais523> ehird: I suggest you reduce the maximum amount of output somewhat
18:53:05 <ehird> ais523: nah, a lot of programs only start giving interesting output after a bit
18:53:09 <ehird> plus, it's flushed out quickly
18:53:15 <ehird> Slereah2: it's just * * * *
18:53:19 <ehird> the number of spaces increase
18:53:24 <ais523> "only start giving interesting output after a bit"?
18:53:33 <ehird> like the counting programs
18:53:35 <ais523> only the first line of that's interesting, probably only the first half of the first line
18:53:38 <AnMaster> ais523, "outputs garbage at the start"
18:53:44 <ais523> as for counting programs, just use / rather than newline
18:53:51 <ehird> it looked nice in the irc display
18:53:56 <ehird> plus, you have /ignore, use it
18:54:08 <ais523> I may do, although not yet
18:54:08 <AnMaster> ehird, not really, was quite weird, and not at all well formatted
18:54:13 <ais523> my ignore tolerance is pretty high
18:54:20 <ehird> AnMaster: looked nice to me.
18:54:25 <AnMaster> each fills around 3 wrapped lines
18:54:26 <ehird> plus the code is nice
18:55:01 <ehird> ```.*`cd``@|`cd!hello world I am testing
18:55:02 <unlambda> *h*eh*leh*lleh*olleh* olleh*w olleh*ow olleh*row olleh*lrow olleh*dlrow olleh* dlrow olleh*I dlrow olleh* I dlrow olleh*a I dlrow olleh*ma I dlrow olleh* ma I dlrow olleh*t ma I dlrow olleh*et ma I dlrow olleh*set ma I dlrow olleh*tset ma I dlrow olleh*itset ma I dlrow olleh*nitset ma I dlrow olleh*gnitset ma I dlrow olleh*gnitset
18:55:14 <ehird> Cute and incomprehensible.
18:55:18 <AnMaster> ehird, there is this thing calling "running a program locally", should that not work there is also "joining another channel", to do that you do /join #esoteric-spam or whatever channel you want
18:55:41 <ehird> AnMaster: complain about fungot too, if you're so upset by it ignore it
18:55:42 <fungot> ehird: uninterned symbols, pairs, procedures, and so am i to know if it's his older thing or something? random numbers, perhaps.
18:56:13 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[.]
18:56:13 <fungot> 222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222 ...
18:56:29 <ehird> yes, most unlambda programs output a lot more than one line
18:56:33 <ehird> and thus one line isn't useful
18:56:40 <ehird> did someone take away your /ignore?
18:56:54 <AnMaster> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...>++++++++++.<...
18:57:13 <AnMaster> seems it uses . for \n unless I miscounted
18:57:22 <ehird> ```.*`cd``@|`cd!* * * * * * * * * * *
18:57:23 <unlambda> *** *** ** * ** * *** * ** * * ** * * ** * * *** * * ** * * * ** * * * ** * * * ** * * * *** * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * ** * * * * *** * * * * ** * * * * * ** * * * * * ** * * * * * ** *
18:57:23 <unlambda> * * * * ** * * * * * ** * * * * * *** * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * ** * * * * * *
18:57:24 <unlambda> *** * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * **
18:57:26 <unlambda> * * * * * * * *** * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * **
18:57:30 <unlambda> * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * *** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * ** *
18:57:34 <unlambda> * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * Result: <terminated>
18:57:35 <ehird> oh god so pretttttttttttyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
18:57:37 <ais523> ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
18:57:37 <fungot> ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^
18:57:38 <unlambda> ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ Result: v
18:57:39 <fungot> ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn!
18:57:40 <unlambda> ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! Result: v
18:57:40 <fungot> ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn!
18:57:41 <unlambda> ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! Result: v
18:57:42 <fungot> ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn!
18:57:43 <unlambda> ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! Result: v
18:57:43 <fungot> ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn!
18:57:45 <unlambda> ^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! Result: v
18:57:45 <fungot> ````ci`c`@|i!^ul ((````ci`c`@|i!^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn!
18:57:46 -!- unlambda has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:58:03 -!- unlambda has joined.
18:58:08 <ehird> AnMaster: that's funny, kind of like how you whined at me when I set up a botloop of fungots
18:58:08 <fungot> ehird: no idea what it is, and at the moment
18:58:11 <ehird> oh wait, not at all like that.
18:58:23 <ais523> ehird: you know I can't resist botlooping any new bot which joins
18:58:28 <ehird> AnMaster: no, I quit it.
18:58:32 <ehird> before people started complaining.
18:58:35 <ehird> you know, like fizzie does.
18:58:39 <AnMaster> ehird, not :D then, rather: you are a hypocrite
18:58:51 <AnMaster> since you got irritated when fizzie quit your loop
18:58:56 <ehird> umm I believe I was just calling you out for hypocritical actions there
18:59:04 <ais523> I agree that ehird should have quitted the loop when e did
18:59:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but you always do that
18:59:18 <ais523> now, to get fungot's output to be legal Underload
18:59:19 <fungot> ais523: fnord fnord already runs with fnord classpath so it would be
18:59:32 <ehird> I sure would like a conversation with a sentient being once in a while. Any in here?
18:59:46 <ais523> ehird: well, there is evidence for that
18:59:55 <ehird> Yes, for all users but one.
19:00:01 <ehird> I think the name starts with an A.
19:00:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I understand you wouldn't see one when you met one. I mean due to not being sentient yourself.
19:00:35 <ehird> Wow, didn't you use that retort a few minutes ago?
19:00:45 <ehird> I guess your brain operates in batch mode, on the occasion that it does.
19:01:17 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, I have to change option then, you are sentient, or you wouldn't pattern match that well.
19:01:44 <ehird> Huh. The bot recognizes sentience. Interesting.
19:01:56 <AnMaster> which bot? fungot or unlambda?
19:01:57 <fungot> AnMaster: what if it's not beautiful, it's probably a useful idea to send parsed requests from the same language on another layer? nice additions to the base level, have fun with.
19:02:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
19:02:51 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:03:44 <ehird> the bot named "AnMaster".
19:03:44 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
19:04:15 <ehird> No, I'm fairly sure.
19:04:30 <ais523> personally, I think it's just ehird being contrary for no good reason
19:05:01 <ehird> yes, because I'm the only one who does that. certainly AnMaster never does.
19:06:34 <AnMaster> ais523, I believe it is related to his age. Aren't they supposed to be that when they are in their lower teens (is that a Swedishism or an Englishism?)
19:06:57 <ais523> why don't we all discuss esolangs for once?
19:07:23 <AnMaster> ais523, just seems ehird prefers to attack me instead. Sigh.
19:07:46 <ehird> I'm going to assume that AnMaster knows he's being hypocritical to the max degree.
19:07:50 -!- Slereah2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:08:04 <ehird> Also, that referencing my age to win an argument probably won't work on anyone with sentience.
19:08:27 <ehird> wtf, i think this unlambda program is Life
19:08:35 <ehird> or ... some automaton
19:09:02 <AnMaster> ehird, don't worry, it is just a natural part of life. You will get past it in a few years. :)
19:09:33 <ehird> I wonder if I should do like AnMaster does and ignore AnMaster and then paste the successful ignore message as flamebait.
19:09:44 <ehird> Oh wait, I have a brain. drop that idea.
19:09:49 -!- Slereah2 has joined.
19:10:02 <AnMaster> also it wouldn't work on me. It only works on you.
19:10:55 <ehird> Hm. lament: Is deliberately trolling to elicit a flamewar bannable yet?
19:11:05 <ehird> I direct you to "It only works on you.".
19:12:30 <AnMaster> ehird, Probably not: after all, you are still here. Now I really need to programming. Have a nice evening.
19:12:46 <ehird> You accidentally programming with your brain.
19:12:59 <ehird> But thanks for leaving just to make me happier. I really appreciate the thought.
19:15:53 <oerjan> i for one can see no difference between AnMaster and ehird as far as bannability is concerned.
19:16:20 <ehird> banning us both would work, I'd come back with a proxy under a different name and he likely wouldn't.
19:21:48 <ais523> ehird: we could still tell it was you just from the style
19:22:18 <ais523> well, if it was sufficiently different, you wouldn't argue with AnMaster-like opinions, so everyone would be happy
19:23:00 <ehird> Yes, agreeing with idiots tends to make everyone into idiots and idiots among idiots generally are happy.
19:23:20 <ais523> AnMaster is not an idiot
19:23:24 <ais523> regardless of what you think
19:23:38 <ehird> Dayum, what's this new subjectivity I hear about? I don't believe in it.
19:23:39 <oklopol> oerjan: sorry, since i made that unlambda continuation notation i've been thinking someone should make an interpreter actually using it... <<< my subtle cough interp used an equivalent one
19:24:20 <AnMaster> I never considered ehird an idiot. Just as very annoying.
19:24:39 <ehird> I never said you considered me an idiot. I said you were an idiot.
19:24:58 <AnMaster> ehird, that is your subjective opinion
19:25:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:25:25 <ehird> In a world where everyone has to start every sentence with "IMO" because humans have lost the ability to realise that what people say is not always in the context of objective fact...
19:25:32 <ehird> ...everyone is AnMaster.
19:28:27 <ehird> that doesn't even class as a joke.
19:28:45 <ais523> ehird: it isn't a joke, just an observation
19:28:48 <ais523> and quite an interesting one
19:28:56 <ais523> ofc, knowing AnMaster it might have meant to be a joke, but i don't think so
19:29:08 <ehird> No, I'm pretty sure that was meant as a joke.
19:30:22 <ehird> oerjan: Har har har that is so funny the 50th time
19:30:40 <oklopol> oerjan: i for one can see no difference between AnMaster and ehird as far as bannability is concerned. <<< i do.
19:30:44 <oerjan> erm this time it actually fit
19:31:01 <oklopol> they'd have completely different reasons for being banned.
19:31:03 <ehird> oklopol: lemme guess, I'm bannable he's not?
19:31:32 <ehird> (and if you asked that before ais523 implied that if it was a joke, it was awful ...)
19:31:46 <ais523> ehird: I don't think AnMaster would lie about such things
19:31:49 <ais523> jokes are no laughing matter
19:32:03 <oklopol> ehird: no, objectively speaking you both are very bannable, you're very stubborn and tend to insult people just for the fuck of it 24/7, and AnMaster is... very AnMaster.
19:32:21 <ehird> OK, know what? I'll come back when AnMaster's gone and we're actually discussing something
19:32:23 -!- ehird has left (?).
19:32:23 <oklopol> (people = AnMaster, mostly)
19:32:28 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
19:32:55 <AnMaster> but you are correct, I wouldn't lie about that. Nor would I actually lie about anything really, unless it is a matter of life of death or such. (Like if someone was pointing a gun at you...)
19:33:02 <oerjan> also, disappears once someone other than AnMaster actually says something bad about him...
19:33:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes I mentioned that above.
19:33:17 <ais523> I rarely lie, except in contexts where people expect lying to be appropriate
19:33:23 <ais523> such as certain games where lying is part of the game
19:33:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:33:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well ok, but I don't like such games
19:33:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: wait, it's _you_ who are supposed to have the short attention span...
19:34:16 <oerjan> he claims it's you. that may confuse me sometimes.
19:34:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm the guy who can edit 20 C files each 2000+ lines at once and still manage to keep track of which function was where, even when the files lack a consistent function naming scheme.
19:35:03 <oklopol> i occasionally lie accidentally, like, explain something incorrectly, and don't bother to correct it.
19:35:15 <AnMaster> (of course, I wouldn't remember the next day)
19:35:35 <AnMaster> oklopol, well I guess that could happen, but I try to correct it if I see I made an error.
19:36:20 <oerjan> ais523: i don't manage to play such games...
19:36:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, actually, that "disappears once someone other than AnMaster actually says something bad about him..." is not exactly what I mentioned. ehird hasn't rejoined to make a one line comment and then part again, yet...
19:36:39 <AnMaster> but maybe he will do that soon.
19:36:52 <AnMaster> of course he is reading logs all the time
19:37:07 <oklopol> the problem is i care very little about actualy facts about specific people, i prefer having conversations about more general stuff, using myself only as an example
19:37:12 * AnMaster waits for: * ehird joined <ehird> No I don't read logs! * ehird parted
19:37:14 <ais523> yep, ehird left ##nomic in a huff and hasn't rejoined since, but apparently logreads it anyway
19:37:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm? How is that a problem?
19:37:50 <oklopol> except in irc, but that's quite a different persona.
19:38:05 <oklopol> AnMaster: the point is if i accidentally lie, i don't see any reason to correct it.
19:38:06 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:38:14 <oklopol> because it's not about me, it's about the facts
19:38:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm so if you lie about the facts, you don't correct it?
19:39:04 <AnMaster> or only if you lie about yourself.
19:39:44 <oklopol> the kind of facts i'm talking about you cannot lie about. more like "this courses material could be considered not very suitable for university for reason X"
19:40:16 <oklopol> (i rarely talk about anything other than my own education nowadays)
19:40:17 <oerjan> yeah it's just as sure as 2+2=5
19:40:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, at these temperatures we have now it is more usually 2+2=3 though...
19:41:06 <AnMaster> I mean, not even in Swedish summer we reach 2+2=5
19:41:15 <AnMaster> you would have to go to south Europe for that.
19:41:22 <oklopol> AnMaster: if i tell someone i went to the shop the day before, but i actually went there two days ago, i will not correct it, i'll just make sure it doesn't come up i lied.
19:41:29 <AnMaster> (and that wasn't a lie, but a joke)
19:41:30 <oklopol> because that would just clutter the conversation
19:42:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, what if the discussion was about having an alibi for someone you saw in the shop?
19:45:10 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:45:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: the IWC forum discussion for the current comic is - disturbing
19:46:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:46:39 <oklopol> oerjan: why would you engage in conversation about iwc right when ehird is not here to witness it :P
19:46:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, you forgot he is log reading.
19:46:57 <ais523> what's the whole IWC meme anyway?
19:47:19 <ais523> well, it seems to have become a meme even if it wasn't
19:47:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: i try my best not to consider logreaders.
19:47:33 <AnMaster> ais523, I just happened to comment on IWC before oerjan read it a few times.
19:47:36 <oklopol> i don't like to be talking to anyone who happens to be watching.
19:47:37 <oerjan> ais523: AnMaster just likes to discuss the comic...
19:47:45 <oklopol> i'm talking to whoever is active here.
19:48:57 <oklopol> oerjan: "AM: butt i liek talk oerjan bout a iwc! HRD: lol he not speak anyway... AM: oh i sory if he don care then i'll not speak no mores :|"
19:49:54 <oklopol> oerjan: and because you contradicted that for the first time right after ehird's departure, i felt like it was statistically important enough to mention.
19:49:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm I agree. Very disturbing...
19:50:10 -!- unlambda has joined.
19:50:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, there is no way I would talk like that.
19:50:31 <AnMaster> also wondering why that book joined again... without ehird.
19:50:41 <oerjan> impomatic: but AnMaster just unsummoned him
19:50:43 <AnMaster> maybe he took it offline to be able to talk through it?
19:50:52 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:51:04 -!- unlambda has joined.
19:51:12 <oklopol> `````````````````.c.a.n. .i. .u.n.l.a.m.b.d.a.?i
19:51:14 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
19:51:19 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:51:24 <AnMaster> oh I see. he want to cycle spam it
19:51:30 -!- unlambda has joined.
19:51:48 <oklopol> ````````````````.c.a.n. .i. .u.n.l.a.m.b.d.a.?i
19:52:08 * oklopol knows his way around this one
19:52:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, cycle spam = 10 JOIN 20 PART (or quit) 30 GOTO 10
19:52:19 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
19:53:00 <oklopol> AnMaster: oh he added an irc extension? basikell is advancing quickly.
19:53:53 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's a reference to something you didn't see
19:54:13 <oklopol> but seriously, i have to go now. i mean like at this mo.
19:54:51 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:55:03 -!- unlambda has joined.
19:55:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://augustss.blogspot.com/2009/02/regression-they-say-that-as-you-get.html
19:55:54 <AnMaster> hm that page layout looks extremely familiar....
20:04:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, Because you just used -> of course...
20:04:52 <AnMaster> and you have already used it twice without a matching <- today
20:05:12 <AnMaster> I fail to interpret that smiley
20:05:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, logical, if "->" is "out" or "away", then "<-" would be "in" or "here".
20:05:43 <oklopol> took me a while to understand that given that it made absolutely no sense :P
20:05:57 <oklopol> but yeah i generally assume people can sense my returns without a sign.
20:06:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, hey how do you expect me to mindread over IRC?
20:06:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, I consider <- and -> as refcount
20:06:58 <oerjan> same way as anywhere else
20:07:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, well not over long distance internet :P
20:07:19 <ais523> AnMaster: there's only one oklopol, you don't have to refcount him
20:07:56 <impomatic> Hmmm... codegolf.com does well on programming reddit, but anarchy golf gets voted down :-(
20:08:14 <oerjan> ais523: but what if someone throws him in the garbage?
20:08:35 <ais523> anarchy golf looks unprofessional
20:08:47 <ais523> because there's so much crazy stuff going on behind the scenes there hasn't been time to polish the interface
20:09:20 <oerjan> you'd think all those libertarians would like it, no?
20:09:39 <AnMaster> codegolf.com looks professional IFF "Connection timed out" is considered to look professional.
20:09:54 <AnMaster> Though I admit that the firefox "Connection timed out" DOES look professional.
20:10:22 <oklopol> "oh my god they must have sommuch usserz!"
20:11:13 <oklopol> i don't actually know what causes connection timed out in general.
20:11:14 <oerjan> what about sammich users?
20:11:30 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:11:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:11:40 <oklopol> i mean i don't know what causes it in general.
20:11:42 -!- unlambda has joined.
20:12:01 <oklopol> (i'm assuming anything that makes to connection time out, but how should i know.)
20:12:09 <ais523> AnMaster: unlambda is ehird's bot
20:12:19 <ais523> and ehird has been known for bot shenanigans in the past
20:12:23 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
20:12:30 <ais523> probably ehird doesn't even ened to logread
20:12:34 <ais523> because the bot's logging
20:13:24 <AnMaster> isn't that some sort of marshland feature?
20:13:45 <ais523> AnMaster: sort of, yes
20:13:52 <ais523> do you only know about bogs from wargames?
20:14:09 -!- ais523 has quit.
20:14:11 <oerjan> adders, to be specific
20:16:15 -!- unlambda has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:16:27 -!- unlambda has joined.
20:16:32 <AnMaster> since it didn't include a quit reason
20:28:24 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
20:32:49 <oerjan> just to confuse people
20:32:57 <oerjan> and that's the official explanation
20:33:30 <oerjan> well, ar figgle boof nybble grip grop
20:34:06 <AnMaster> Slereah2, it use it as an activator char
20:34:23 <AnMaster> <oerjan> well, ar figgle boof nybble grip grop <-- what?
20:34:53 <Slereah2> Mup Da Doo Didda Po Mo Gub Bidda Be Dat Tum 4chan meme usually (but not always) used as the black version of fgsfds. Muhfuggen bix nood
20:35:17 <oerjan> sometimes i have to wonder if AnMaster _is_ a bot...
20:37:06 <oerjan> <AnMaster> <oerjan> well, ar figgle boof nybble grip grop <-- what?
20:37:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, So how do you feel about your ar figgle boof nybble grip?
20:38:14 <oerjan> well it's quite nice but i wish it had a chrome finish
20:38:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, Is it because you wish it had a chrome finish that you came to me?
20:39:51 <oerjan> because in 1635, Art van Goorpuddle invented the prewashed gnarl pusher
20:40:08 <oklopol> it's a bit weird, <author X> doesn't joke *that* much in <book Y>, but for some reason, every time it's mentioned that there's a timer overflow issue (Y2K, CD-rom, unix and msdos timestamps etc), he makes a joke, "every extra 88 years help" "so you should start preparing for the 2136 problem as early as possible".
20:40:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, I see... Well, are you sure that this is so?
20:40:34 <oklopol> the book has like 20 of them
20:40:56 <oerjan> well why else would they use the trapezoid dumplings?
20:41:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, When did you first know that else would they use the trapezoid dumplings?
20:41:26 <oklopol> and also about cd's lasting 100 years, "check back in 208X to see how well the first batch did"
20:41:42 <oerjan> when i was a little kid
20:41:43 <oklopol> AnMaster: i think that one was about msdos
20:42:03 <oklopol> they used a 65536 counter for storing the amount of seconds in a day
20:42:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, Can you elaborate on that?
20:42:41 <oklopol> and something just as stupid for years/months/days, 88 years was what would've been saved using unix's way
20:42:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, Are you annoyed that I ask that?
20:43:08 <oerjan> oklopol: um, 86400 > 65536
20:43:45 <oerjan> so exactly which seconds did they leave out?
20:43:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, btw, on Linux x86_64 the time_t is 64-bit, not 32-bit
20:43:58 <AnMaster> so this computer will have no issues.
20:44:22 <oklopol> probably whatever roundoff gave em
20:44:36 <oklopol> it was "accurate to +-2 seconds"
20:44:46 <oklopol> so. you can estimate at least
20:45:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, I would appreciate it if you would continue.
20:45:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, Do you really think you are sure I would?
20:45:38 <oklopol> AnMaster: i know that. probably if i read the modern unix part of the book, he'd say "so remember to update your computer before the year 29289376427324!".
20:46:00 <oklopol> in fact i should probably read it just to confirm that.
20:46:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, if you haven't figured it out, I was feeding what you said to an eliza style bot and pasting the replies back :P
20:46:59 <oklopol> x = tanenbaum, y = modern operating systems
20:47:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, when did you figure it out
20:47:20 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oerjan, So how do you feel about your ar figgle boof nybble grip?
20:47:25 <oklopol> AnMaster: yeah, he's the third most famous operating systems dude.
20:47:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, at that point I was actually making it up myself, I started using emacs' M-x doctor at the next line.
20:47:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's german for christmas tree
20:48:03 <oklopol> at least i consider him that, of course i'm a bit biased (read: ignorant) when it comes to stuff like this
20:48:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, I see. then it makes no sense.
20:48:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: tanenbaum is the author of minix
20:48:57 <AnMaster> but I didn't know the author of it
20:49:08 <AnMaster> I heard about it, how Torvalds began using it and so on
20:49:22 <oerjan> some say ignorance is bliss, others say ignorance is bias
20:49:49 <oklopol> anyway back to reading overflow jokes ->
20:49:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, just wondering, was that supposed to be a joke?
20:50:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: random rambling, nothing to see here, mock on
20:50:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, someone really needs to design an OS using some bignum scheme for date and time.
20:51:15 <oerjan> hm actually it means "fir tree" originally
20:51:26 <oerjan> (and should have a double n)
20:51:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, hah at the very last comment in the IWC forum thread for today's comic!
20:52:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: someone not including any ordinary humans, i say
20:52:35 * oerjan checks if there's a new comment
20:53:51 <impomatic> Is there a website that covers esoteric operating systems?
20:53:54 <AnMaster> this day of the week really sucks when it comes to web comic. Only the daily ones update on sat.
20:54:01 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oklopol, someone really needs to design an OS using some bignum scheme for date and time.
20:54:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, just to prevent that joking author yes
20:54:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: also, Buck Godot
20:55:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, I mean xkcd and darth and droids are offset so one of them update every weekday
20:55:46 <Mony> http://www.geekologie.com/2009/02/07/bacon-chart-2.jpg
20:56:03 <oerjan> D&D did that on purpose
20:56:17 <Mony> why did you say that ?
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20:57:03 <oerjan> Mony: he left in a huff
20:57:40 <oerjan> + a bit of side comments
20:58:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: you're all set for converting to islam i see :D
20:58:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh? Actually I like pig in other forms
21:07:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, about that web comic you mentioned, is it good?
21:07:54 * oerjan panics as someone asks him a taste question
21:08:39 <AnMaster> I have also considered starting reading Order of the stick, read a few of it, but haven't had a lot of free time.
21:09:45 <oerjan> i don't have the foggiest idea whether the things i like are "good" or not
21:10:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, so what web comics do you like?
21:11:39 <oerjan> ok it's probably good, really, it's by Phil Foglio
21:11:59 <oerjan> same as half of Girl Genius
21:12:36 <SimonRC> though Foglio's earlier career is showing through in the GG artwork a bit too much for my tastes
21:12:59 <oerjan> even more so in Buck Godot, i think
21:12:59 * AnMaster reads xkcd, IWC, Darth and Droids, sqrt(-garfield), UF
21:14:06 <AnMaster> oh and I used to read DM of the rings, but that one finished.
21:14:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: also Freefall
21:14:24 <AnMaster> (I think I began reading it about one month before it finished or so?)
21:14:52 <SimonRC> it's for the scifi, honest, no the furry
21:14:54 <oerjan> mind you i got to most of my webcomics from this channel
21:14:55 <AnMaster> "Sci-fi furry serial. New comic on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays."
21:15:08 <SimonRC> AnMaster: furry is singular BTW
21:15:33 <SimonRC> it definitely leans more to the sci-fi side
21:15:34 <AnMaster> I just copied that line from google
21:15:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually freefall is _not_ anything to do with fetishes and such
21:15:42 <oklopol> http://www.geekologie.com/2009/02/07/bacon-chart-2.jpg <<< finally a chart that's not annoyingly hard to follow.
21:16:21 <oerjan> i'd say Buck Godot and Girl Genius are much more fixated on such...
21:16:42 <AnMaster> ok I just checked that website, and the comic there makes no sense at all
21:16:47 <Deewiant> SimonRC: what were you referring to, then?
21:16:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: freefall today?
21:17:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: freefall is a long story, also it's (in)famous for going _very_ slowly
21:17:42 <AnMaster> I'm not up for archive reading atm
21:17:52 <AnMaster> so short story arcs is what I currently want
21:18:02 <AnMaster> Yes I read the whole IWC archive once upon a time
21:18:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: in today's comic an old adversary finally gets a bit of comeuppance
21:18:31 <SimonRC> Deewiant: I meant Foglio's earlier pornography career means most of the women in GG have much cleavage and most of the men great muscles.
21:18:52 <SimonRC> AnMaster: for short arcs, try bruno the bandit
21:18:52 <Deewiant> SimonRC: yes, that's what I was referring to as well :-P
21:19:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, why does one person fall asleep?
21:19:10 <SimonRC> arcs are multiples of 6 days; many early ones just 6 days
21:19:20 <SimonRC> AnMaster: it makes perfect sense in context
21:21:04 <SimonRC> AnMaster: specifically, Florence is a (biological) AI fitted with some kind of deactivation mechanism triggered by the blue remote. and the manager in the background has had his tongue stuck to the crygenic pipe for several strips
21:23:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: he deserved it, too
21:23:25 <SimonRC> on another topic altogether... A google ad made me click today: http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CP7U7u-Gm7q4YBDUAxgxMgimBzKu44bkzA
21:23:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, it seems a bit too complex to understand the comic
21:23:46 <SimonRC> it goes to this rather entertaining scam-like thing: http://www.therichjerk.com/
21:23:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: yeah it's not gag-a-day
21:23:59 <SimonRC> AnMaster: typically one starts from the beginning of the archives
21:24:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is what I prefer. Or gag every few days. I'm fine with short story arcs of maybe a week or so
21:24:39 <AnMaster> SimonRC, yes I did that with IWC... and you know it took me 3 days of doing nothing else.
21:25:14 <SimonRC> AnMaster: you don't have to catch up quickly
21:25:17 <oerjan> see also, tv tropes *duck*
21:25:18 <oklopol> that guy is not better than me.
21:25:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh yes I hated his annotations when archive reading
21:25:38 <SimonRC> oerjan: 300 firefox tabs and counting...
21:26:06 <SimonRC> there are worse comics for annotation
21:26:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, in fact I have to forcefully limit myself to a recursion depth of 2 on tvtropes
21:27:14 <SimonRC> many comics that are by 2 people have 5 times as much text below the comic as in it.
21:27:34 <SimonRC> fucks up your following of the storyline
21:27:41 <oerjan> also maybe i should mentioned some _finished_ comics i've read: 1/0, Narbonics, A miracle of Science
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21:28:02 <AnMaster> SimonRC, yes indeed, I never read such a comic
21:28:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh I read a few of Narbonics once, didn't really like it
21:28:25 <AnMaster> read about 50 strips or so iirc
21:28:46 <SimonRC> oerjan: done, done (but not the annotated repeat), done, done
21:28:58 <oerjan> i liked narbonics, but i dropped the new one by the same author (Skin Horse)
21:29:23 <oerjan> it felt sort of boring
21:29:55 <oerjan> also, it had the bad sense of having comments on the same page, i got stuck on them... :D
21:30:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, 1/0 I haven't heard of, and google just gives unrelated results, about binary computers...
21:30:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: um it's the first hit
21:31:13 <SimonRC> AnMaster: it's a slightly-anvilicious-yet-lampshaded work on have absolutely no forth wall
21:31:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.google.com/search?q=1%2F0
21:31:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cached results I assume
21:31:50 <oerjan> http://www.undefined.net/1/0/
21:31:56 <SimonRC> if you ignore the Monotheist Message in the 500s and 600s its good
21:32:04 <AnMaster> because first result is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero, then www.bbc.co.uk/go/homepage/i/int/sport/worldtop/4/-/news/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/7844592.stm
21:32:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes you don't get same result at all google servers at the same time point
21:33:02 <AnMaster> ugh that comic needs javascript?
21:33:09 <SimonRC> for my daily dose of the sick and twisted, I also read SMBC (since PBF and TPLIF are kaput)
21:33:22 <SimonRC> AnMaster: for the navigation, alas
21:33:25 <oerjan> oh Triangle and Robert
21:33:50 <SimonRC> oerjan: yeah, TnR is another good bit of no-forth-wallery, with crap art
21:33:57 <SimonRC> Deewiant: the parking lot is full
21:34:12 <AnMaster> SimonRC, I feel no need for "sick and twisted"
21:34:17 <oerjan> the crappy art is actually turned into a plot device
21:34:22 <AnMaster> but what does does abbreviations mean?
21:34:27 <SimonRC> TPLIF is the one that did the world-adopts-language-consisting-entirely-of-"chicken" joke
21:34:28 <oklopol> what does it mean not to have a fourth wall
21:34:38 <AnMaster> oh I used to read dinosaur comics
21:34:53 <SimonRC> PBF is Perry Bible Fellowship
21:34:57 <AnMaster> and you don't really need to read archive
21:35:04 <oklopol> oerjan: the crappy art is actually turned into a plot device
21:35:23 <oerjan> oklopol: well through the lack of fourth wall
21:36:25 <oklopol> oerjan: i wasn't sure at first whether not having a fourht wall meant what it means or that they *don't* break it.
21:36:32 <oklopol> because it's hard to understand negations.
21:36:42 <oerjan> hm i looked a bit at Dinosaur Comics but it didn't hook me
21:36:49 <SimonRC> the fourth wall comes from theatre, accoring to TVTropes
21:36:53 <oklopol> i don't understand dinosaur comics
21:37:11 <SimonRC> oklopol: it's an exercise in restricted artform
21:37:15 <oklopol> i don't think i've understood even one strip, and i've read lots of them.
21:37:30 <oklopol> SimonRC: i understand the concept, i don't understand the jokes.
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21:40:19 <kerlo> Consensus is that Freefall is the best one, I believe. :-P
21:40:31 <AnMaster> <oklopol> SimonRC: i understand the concept, i don't understand the jokes. <-- I think it is often funny
21:41:00 <AnMaster> no way I accept any furry comic as the best one
21:41:23 <oerjan> it's not furry! except for the main character.
21:42:07 <kerlo> xkcd suffers from xkcd syndrome.
21:42:08 <AnMaster> <oerjan> it's not furry! except for the main character. <-- bash.org time?
21:42:22 * oerjan doesn't read bash.org either
21:42:23 <AnMaster> kerlo, what? beeing too geeky?
21:42:24 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
21:42:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, that isn't a web comic. it is a irc quote database
21:42:52 <kerlo> "Hey, look! I can put a sarcastic statement in a speech bubble and call it a comic strip!"
21:42:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, as far as I know it dominates
21:43:04 <oerjan> i sort of figured it was quotes, from the links i've seen
21:43:14 <kerlo> s/in a speech bubble/between quotation marks/ if you want irony.
21:43:29 <kerlo> There's no point in having a comic strip if you're just going to have one character saying something.
21:43:32 <kerlo> Slereah2: Freefall.
21:43:56 <AnMaster> kerlo, saw that duck rotation recently?
21:44:13 <AnMaster> kerlo, and you claim it is bad?
21:45:32 <oerjan> IWC has more or less turned into a small webcomic empire, with Darths & Droids and Mezzacotta's 4 comics...
21:45:34 <kerlo> The Drake equation one was particularly bad, I think.
21:45:48 <oerjan> (for various values of "comics")
21:46:00 <kerlo> "You know, Frank Drake once said something that isn't quite right. He admitted it afterward, but still."
21:46:05 <kerlo> If I'm not mistaken.
21:46:28 <AnMaster> and that must have been in the tooltip or?
21:47:04 <kerlo> http://xkcd.com/384/
21:48:32 <kerlo> Not so much "he admitted it afterward" as "it was a rough guess that he expected everyone would forget about".
21:48:53 <AnMaster> kerlo, I don't require it to be perfect every day
21:49:34 <AnMaster> kerlo, just remember it inspired youtube to add the "audio preview" for example
21:49:50 <AnMaster> no idea if they still have that
21:49:51 <kerlo> Being influential doesn't mean I like it.
21:50:12 <AnMaster> kerlo, and I happen to like it :)
21:50:49 <kerlo> How often does it preach about DRM?
21:51:27 <kerlo> I love hearing that DRM sucks, since it isn't obvious and Slashdot doesn't exist.
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22:12:30 <oerjan> en flyvende flue fløj?
22:15:05 <AnMaster> also I did start archive reading that freefall, not too bad so far, (131 comics done so far if I interpret the url format correctly)
22:15:18 <AnMaster> iwc took a lot longer. bloody annotations
22:19:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw, "a flying fly flied" except that is a lot more confusing in English
22:20:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, was that a correct translation of what you said?
22:21:03 <oerjan> assuming what i said was correct
22:21:24 * oerjan cannot guarantee that, not being danish
22:21:35 <AnMaster> what would it be in Norwegian?
22:22:03 <AnMaster> Well closer to Danish than Swedish I think
22:22:04 <oerjan> admittedly not very different :)
22:22:19 <oerjan> ei flygande floge flaug
22:24:01 <oerjan> one word in common with swedish
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22:26:58 * ehird reads logs to catch up
22:27:34 <ehird> oerjan, SimonRC: yeah, 1/0 is great, the religion part was kind of ridiculous though
22:27:52 <ehird> <AnMaster> no way I accept any furry comic as the best one
22:28:17 <ehird> If "furry" means "has anthropomorphic animal characters", then there's a lot more than webcomics you have to disregard...
22:29:45 <Slereah2> <`∀´> Corean webcomics superior nida
22:30:35 <ehird> oerjan, SimonRC: After reading 1/0 I went onto Tailsteak's site, it had some anti-gay marriage stuff and I was like :'(
22:32:05 <Slereah2> You can marry me, in the eyes of Satan
22:33:51 * oerjan wonders if norway has any registered satanist ministers with marriage rights
22:37:07 <ehird> Yay my copyriht infringement is going speedily
22:37:35 <Slereah2> STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!
22:38:25 <ehird> But Apple's Leopard price is crazily overinflated
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22:46:46 <Slereah2> What's bringing you here mah boiii?
22:47:47 <alex89ru> The smell of esoteric lead me here
22:50:17 <Slereah2> You need an extra ` at the beggining
22:50:54 <kerlo> ``a`b`c`d`e`f`g`h`i`j`k`l`m`n`o`p`q`r`s`t`u`v`w`x`yz
22:50:55 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
22:51:08 <kerlo> ``a`b`c`d`e`f`g`h`i`j`k`l`m`n`o`p`q`r`s`t`u`v`w`x`yzz
22:51:11 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
22:51:19 <kerlo> ``a`b`c`d`e`f`g`h`i`j`k`l`m`n`o`p`q`r`s`t`u`v`w`x`yzs
22:51:20 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
22:51:27 <kerlo> ``a`b`c`d`e`f`g`h`i`j`k`l`m`n`o`p`q`r`s`t`u`v`w`x`yzssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
22:51:29 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
22:51:53 <kerlo> ``bssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
22:51:55 <unlambda> expecting "s", "k", "i", "v", "d", "c", "e", "@", "|", ".", "r", "?" or "`"
22:52:26 <Slereah2> Hm. That char doesn't display.
22:52:55 <Slereah2> ```````````.<.`.V..>. .n.i.d.ai
22:59:13 <alex89ru> eso. languages like this one :
22:59:17 <alex89ru> http://esolangs.org/wiki/2-ill
23:00:12 <alex89ru> 2-ill seems only to allow to move around through cells
23:00:20 <kerlo> alex89ru: it has input and output, too.
23:00:48 <kerlo> I think I would define a language as a function whose input is a string.
23:01:28 <oerjan> alex89ru: consider something like Backflip or Smetana/Smatiny though
23:03:10 <oerjan> hm actually smatiny had output too
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00:45:53 <bsmntbombdood> $ihopes_new_nick: so where's your onoz interpreter?
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01:41:47 <lament> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo
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01:56:01 <GregorR> It's sad that I'm feeling good because I made this software fail in the same way on multiple platforms X_X
01:57:07 <kerlo> comex: did you want to compliment me on my prophetic ability?
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03:58:48 <comex> reddit programming (3 clicks -->) ihope
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03:59:37 <kerlo> Oh, you were answering bsmntbombdood's question.
03:59:54 <kerlo> Let me find out what onoz is.
04:00:38 <kerlo> bsmntbombdood: write one. ehird would tell you that it's easy.
04:00:53 <kerlo> (Disclaimer: I don't actually know enough about ehird to truly make that statement.)
04:01:55 <comex> reddit --> banana scheme --> brainhype --> onoz (ihope)
04:02:02 <comex> in the unimplemented category :(
04:02:45 <kerlo> So my Reddit number is more like 4.
04:03:03 <kerlo> Inded, onoz --> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Ihope127
04:03:06 <kerlo> And http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Ihope127 = me.
04:03:17 <comex> 3 clicks to see the name ihope
04:03:24 <comex> and yesterday there was bf joust
04:03:30 <comex> what's with Agorans on reddit?
04:03:40 <kerlo> There are Agorans on reddit?
04:04:17 <comex> s/(?=on)/linked to /
04:04:46 <lament> banana scheme was on reddit?
04:05:03 <kerlo> Well, I have to go. See y'allz.
04:05:05 <comex> it's on /r/programming at the moment
04:05:17 <kerlo> Does RProgrammer have anything to do with that?
04:05:19 <comex> I'd upvote it, but I don't have an account :p
04:05:32 <lament> wow, it's indeed on reddit
04:10:39 <lament> it really belongs on http://www.reddit.com/r/Marijuana/
04:18:43 <kerlo> (Retroactively. It was not a lie when I told it, but it is now.)
04:18:58 <kerlo> I have returned so that I may confess a sin in ##sl4.
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10:13:12 <oklofyug> lament: you have pretty fingers
10:13:42 <oklofyug> i always figured your skin was full of boils
10:18:35 * oklofyug writes his first youtube comment
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11:00:26 <upyr[emacs]> my first `program` brainfuck http://pastebin.com/m469e5a92
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11:15:04 <upyr[emacs]> i want do summator for two numbers, but begin i do it ^
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11:44:58 <okloflaeg> >----< <--> <<< which one is longer? (you'll be so surprised!)
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14:57:21 <ehird> <kerlo> I have returned so that I may confess a sin in ##sl4.
14:57:42 <ais523> what is ##sl4 about, anyway?
14:57:52 <ais523> ehird: you are aware that "wat" is technically speaking a spelling error?
14:58:14 <ehird> ais523: ##sl4 is the IRC channel for sl4.org, a mailing list about the technological Singularity
15:01:46 <ehird> but yes, I'm rather wondering what the heck ##sl4 has to do with sins
15:04:40 -!- okloflaeg has changed nick to oklopol.
15:05:09 <oklopol> are you groaning at me, or with me?
15:05:10 <ehird> i hope the singularity doesn't make us all too intellectual for terrible puns.
15:05:14 <ehird> oerjan and oklopol would go out of business.
15:06:16 <oklopol> should probably go bite my cell phone
15:06:19 <ehird> I wouldn't put it past ihope to be a rapidly self-improving strong AI.
15:06:38 <oklopol> well if someone here is, it's him
15:07:05 <ehird> oklopol: or fungot
15:07:06 <fungot> ehird: i really feel like going fast and such. i suggested a holy grail of web applications, and expressions that manipulate them or store to/ load from memory.
15:07:14 <ehird> "i really feel like going fast and such."
15:07:18 <ehird> he's talking about his self-improvement
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15:07:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
15:08:58 <ehird> <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp allofsentience
15:08:58 <fungot> ehird: riastradh, i don't think so...
15:15:24 <ehird> Unfortunately for the singularity, we still haven't asked AC how to reverse entropy.
15:15:29 <ehird> maybe AC is the singularity.
15:18:18 <pikhq> I ask *every* computer how to reverse entropy.
15:18:28 <ehird> pikhq: how's that going for you
15:18:29 <pikhq> You never know when it'll come up. ;)
15:19:10 <pikhq> ehird: So far, I've gotten answers ranging from "syntax error" to "Insufficient information."
15:19:39 <ehird> pikhq: Wire your brain up to a serial cable and ask it.
15:21:26 <pikhq> Sorry; I'm waiting for ethernet jacks.
15:26:02 <ehird> I bet google is the singularity.
15:26:15 <ehird> As soon as they try and make it improve its indexing algorithm through the pages it indexes.
15:35:11 <ehird> http://twitter.com/OHHDL
15:43:05 <comex> His Holiness the Dalai Lama had been experiencing some mild discomfort in one of his arms over the last three days. On the advice of his personal physician, His Holiness left Dharamsala early this afternoon and arrived in New Delhi. After undergoing medical tests at Apollo Hospital, His Holiness left the hospital early this evening after having been diagnosed to be suffering from a pinched nerve. Doctors have advised some medication. His Holiness is spending
15:43:06 <comex> the night in New Delhi before returning to Dharamsala tomorrow to resume his normal schedule from Wednesday. - Office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama
15:43:29 <comex> why do I feel the urge to laugh after reading so many 'His Holiness'
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15:49:17 <fizzie> fungot: So, how *do* we reverse entropy?
15:49:18 <fungot> fizzie: how do you " work on a syntactic closures srfi?) address. :p
15:50:27 <ehird> So, work on a syntactic closures srfi, give it the address, and it'll tell you how.
15:55:23 <comex> fungot: so what source is this from?
15:55:25 <fungot> comex: i think i use security by obscurity anyway?) ( allthough, lispme does let you look at all the colors and stuff are authored in latin. like fnord and rain.
15:55:41 <comex> ah, never knew fnord and rain were latin
15:55:45 <ais523> comex: clearly, it won't tell you
15:56:06 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
15:56:11 <ehird> comex: greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
15:56:16 <ehird> fungot: greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
15:56:16 <fungot> ehird: a zombie, has the lowest non-zero stain. ( f) the associate director of personnel may declare an interested proposal is
15:56:39 <comex> honestly, fungot would be impressive even if it were written in Python
15:56:40 <fungot> comex: mark awards and penalties allowed by the assessor with respect to entities in the same month.
15:57:56 <ehird> meh, megahal is better :P
16:17:27 <ehird> ais523: I forget, was Vaughan Pratt right in the end?
16:17:47 <ais523> at least, his original claim was based on incorrect data, therefore false
16:18:01 <ehird> this one: http://cs.nyu.edu/pipermail/fom/2007-October/012156.html
16:18:04 <ais523> there followed a rather inconclusive argument after that, in which in the end we agreed that the original statement was ambiguosu
16:18:18 <ais523> yep, that one's completely fallacious
16:18:29 <ais523> at least, the argument's correct but the premises are wrong, so it's inapplicable to the situation
16:18:38 <ehird> ais523: but, confirm this:
16:19:05 <ehird> "It is possible, with a 2,3 machine and one sub-turing machine, to make the 2,3 compute something only a turing machine can"
16:19:54 <ais523> yes, I can confirm that
16:20:02 <ehird> that's good enough for me
16:20:12 <ehird> ais523: and thus, it follows that
16:20:22 <ais523> with a reasonable definition of "compute", I think the one in my original proof was good enough but I created a more clear-cut demonstration later
16:20:34 <ehird> "it is possible, with a 2,3 machine and one sub-turing machine with the property that after one use, it self-destructs, to make the 2,3 provide an environment for generating the programs thereforth"
16:20:39 <ehird> that is, you only need a sub-turing machine once
16:20:52 <ais523> well, if you have storage for an infinite amount of data
16:20:59 <ehird> we're in platonic land.
16:21:02 <ehird> that's good enough for me, then
16:21:09 <ais523> in platonic land, correct
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16:21:23 <ehird> ais523: I think it may be more accurate to say that {2,3 + sub turing machine} might be the thing that is TC, though
16:21:33 <ehird> kind of like the chinese box thing, it's the whole system combined that's intelligen
16:21:46 <ais523> I think what came out of this is that turing-completeness was badly defined
16:21:51 <ais523> after all, BF needs an input program to be turing complete
16:21:56 <ais523> and you have to write that program in BF
16:22:10 <ais523> so it's actually BF, plus the process of translating a program into BF, that's TC
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16:32:22 <ehird> ha ha paradoxes are so funny.
16:32:54 <ehird> also, it's not a paradox.
16:33:16 <ehird> it's just psychology
16:35:39 <AnMaster> ehird, no, because if more than half answers no, then the result will actually be more than half, and no will be incorrect
16:35:53 <AnMaster> if more than half answer yes, then it will be incorrect as well
16:36:01 <ehird> only the minority can win
16:36:09 <ehird> but it's not impossible to win
16:36:16 <ehird> it's just weighing up human psychology to find the answer
16:36:43 <AnMaster> that depends on how you interpret it
16:37:11 <ehird> it's not a paradox
16:43:11 * ehird plans out dream language
16:43:26 <whoppix> yay, my underload interpreter is mostly complete.
16:43:35 <ehird> It's a total FP language that has no compilation/runtime distinction, dependent types in the same language to infinite levels,
16:43:42 <ais523> which lang are you writing it in?
16:43:43 <ehird> an extensible syntax and implementation at the base level
16:43:58 <whoppix> I couldn't find any underload implementation on cpan, so I thought i'd write one.
16:43:59 <ais523> I'd be interested to see it
16:44:23 <ais523> I think I have a Perl version of my own lying around somewhere, but it probably isn't very robust
16:44:31 <whoppix> I'll paste it for you, although its not complete yet.
16:44:59 <whoppix> Ill yet have to implement a way to throw in custom callbacks for outputting.
16:45:21 <ehird> ais523 has a 300-character or so Underload interp in perl
16:45:36 <ais523> ah yes, I was golfing it for anagolf
16:45:40 <ais523> it wasn't a robust one, though
16:45:42 <whoppix> http://codepad.org/hYbMoOl2
16:45:48 <ehird> ais523: I can't imagine it being much more verbose
16:45:49 <ais523> just one that was good enough to "legitimately" win
16:45:54 <ehird> even if was robust
16:46:00 <ehird> 50 lines, max, I'd say
16:46:10 <whoppix> The specification is a bit unclear about how to handle ", so I haven't implemented quoting yet
16:46:13 <ehird> whoppix: wow, that's... thoroughly overengineered.
16:46:14 <ais523> also, mine was terribly inefficient
16:46:18 <ais523> whoppix: don't, nobody else does
16:46:21 <ais523> I should just take that out of the spec
16:46:28 <whoppix> ais523, just a random namespace I throwed it into, eclipse is always a bitch about those things.
16:46:32 <ehird> you really don't need a separate paresr
16:46:41 <ais523> ehird: you do if you want it to run fast
16:46:54 <ehird> because you never skip past
16:47:00 <ehird> parsing a quote is one-pass
16:47:03 <whoppix> ais523, I'll put it under Language::Underload or so, when I upload it to cpan.
16:47:14 <ehird> the delay in an extra parsing step actually slows it down
16:47:15 <ais523> also, shouldn't those dies be carps?
16:47:45 <ais523> ehird: finding the other end of a heavily-nested (()) can be rather slow
16:47:53 <ais523> especially if there are a huge number of bracketed elements inside it
16:47:56 <ais523> parsing avoids that problem
16:48:00 <ehird> ais523: yes, but parsing before running is identical, unlike in BF
16:48:07 <ehird> except the overhead of an extra pass delays program execution
16:48:22 * ehird writes a perl interp himself to demonstrate
16:48:24 <whoppix> ais523, yepp, i just did this in an hour or so, quick and dirty. also, I could propably improve performance greatly by removing the is_valid_token check
16:48:41 <whoppix> which would then lead to runtime exceptions, rather than compile-time-errors
16:49:01 <whoppix> (not that it matters for most, anyway, since you have to re-compile code at runtime all the time)
16:49:06 <ais523> you could probably speed it up further using a jump hash for the commands
16:49:12 <whoppix> (and not that performance matters at all anyway, its just for fun.)
16:49:27 <whoppix> ais523, a jump hash? what do you mean?
16:49:58 <ais523> { 'a' => \¶nthesize, '^' => \&execute
16:50:10 <ais523> then use the hash rather than an if/else if chain
16:50:15 <whoppix> ah, well, yes, but whatever, I don't care about performance.
16:50:20 <ais523> not sure which is faster when you have so few commands, though
16:50:35 <whoppix> direct hash access would be significantly faster
16:50:53 <ais523> my compiler worked completely differently
16:51:02 <ais523> let me try to find a link to it
16:51:10 <whoppix> ais523, that'd be interesting to look at.
16:51:33 <whoppix> my first thought was, to create a EBNF for some sort of higher-level-language, which I could then compile down to underload
16:51:44 <whoppix> but giving it a second thought, I think I'd rather compile it down to brainfuck
16:51:48 <ais523> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/ais523/1202246125&pl
16:52:01 <ais523> sorry about the lack of whitespace, I was going for a length record
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16:52:17 <ais523> run that through B::Deparse and it should look a lot nicer]
16:52:21 <whoppix> ais523, as you can see, I'm not :P
16:52:47 <ais523> whoppix's link is more readable perl
16:52:56 <ais523> also, I did all sorts of cheating things like $/=$]
16:53:05 <ais523> which breaks if Perl's version number happens to be in the input Underload source code
16:53:10 <ais523> but it's a few chars shorter than undef $/
16:54:15 <whoppix> i really think though, I should do something with the quotes, it wouldn't be much work, since I drag in Text::Balanced anyway, and the specification says something about quoting.
16:54:26 <whoppix> (but does not really define where or how to use it)
16:54:33 <ais523> yes, that's because nobody ever did
16:54:50 <ais523> low Underlambda tiers won't have it
16:55:02 <ais523> (Underlambda lowest tier is a "fixed" version of Underload)
16:55:15 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the perl winner, just 34 chars?
16:55:22 <ais523> AnMaster: it was cheating
16:55:35 <ais523> it memorised the outputs that the test was looking for, and pasted one or the other back
16:55:41 <ais523> whoppix: no, unlambda is quite different
16:55:50 <whoppix> ais523, ok, I don't know underlambda.
16:56:07 <ais523> neither does anyone else
16:56:10 <ais523> it's my vaporware language
16:56:24 <ais523> which will one day not be vaporware, honest
16:56:45 <whoppix> ais523, so underlambda can be compiled to underload, or something like that?
16:56:55 <ais523> whoppix: yes, and compiled from Unlambda
16:57:05 <ais523> although I want it to be compilable to and from anything without too much difficulty
16:57:14 <ais523> it's invented as an intermediary language to compile esolangs via
16:57:23 <whoppix> ais523, that sounds interesting, did you made a spec or implementation?
16:57:26 <ais523> anyway, http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/ais523(genuine)/1202731346&sed is another of my Underload interps
16:57:33 <ais523> whoppix: I change the spec frequently
16:57:45 <ais523> and I have an implementation I keep more or less in synch with the spec
16:57:53 <ais523> I'll put it on esolang when it's ready, which is not yet
16:58:15 <ais523> whoppix: regexes tend to be shorter than anything else for golfed esolang interps, I find
16:58:28 <ais523> I don't use them so much in larger projects
16:58:49 <whoppix> I never really played perl golf.
16:59:07 <ais523> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/yshl/1201872465&ps seems to be a genuine Underload interp in Postscript
16:59:32 <ais523> and http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?Underload+interpreter/hinoe(mugoi)/1202159887&c is a crazily short one in C, but it doesn't always work
16:59:41 <ais523> as far as I can tell, it just uses memory without allocating it, or something
17:00:12 <whoppix> I haven't really done a lot of tests with mine yet, but it computes fibonacci sequences just fine.
17:01:39 <whoppix> I think I'll put that module into my bot and make a !underload command. It understands about 20 languages now.
17:01:53 <ais523> how many are esolangs?
17:02:00 <ais523> we could do with an egobot replacement
17:02:14 <whoppix> ais523, depends on wether you count perl as esolang :D
17:02:41 <ais523> Perl in general isn't an esolang; various restrictions and modifications of it (such as golfed Perl) are
17:02:58 <whoppix> it supports perl, python, ruby, javascript, J, haskell, lua, that common kind of stuff, as well as perl6 (pixie/rakudo etc) farnsworth, and now underload
17:03:16 <whoppix> farnsworth doesn't work quite right yet
17:03:24 <ais523> mostly non-esolangs, then
17:03:34 <ais523> could you bring it in here so we could test?
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17:03:41 <ais523> actually, better not, I'd just get it into a botloop with fungot
17:03:41 <fungot> ais523: an entity, unless the term " possess" and " owner" are unambiguous synonyms for " off hold" are synonymous. a player you name must play or incur a debt of the
17:04:25 <whoppix> ais523, its not irc, but rather in a little chatnetwork that me and a friend made on our own, with a JSON-based protocol, TLS encryption, and a lot of other stuff. I'm writing a GTK+ client for it, currently, as well as maintaining the perl network libraries to access it.
17:04:59 <AnMaster> whoppix, make it ignore fungot?
17:05:00 <fungot> AnMaster: highest point total for the ambassador is authorized to perform a certain action " by paradox if e is allowed to stand. as soon as possible after
17:05:04 <whoppix> we made it just for fun, and its still beta, but it has a lot of interesting features, as for example writing latex into the chat.
17:05:19 <whoppix> so that you can post formulas, sheet music, stuff like that
17:05:30 <AnMaster> ais523, btw since I know you use emacs a lot, have you ever used pymacs?
17:05:54 <whoppix> oh, and its going to support PGP for private conversations.
17:06:32 <ehird> whoppix: I wrote my own underload that uses a jump table and has no pre-parsing step and is 100 lines shorter tan yours
17:06:44 <ehird> (and checks the stack size too)
17:06:57 <ehird> it's an OO module, too
17:06:58 <AnMaster> what about reusing something like that IM encryption that offered deniability(sp?) too
17:07:05 <ehird> you can run multiple programs, check the stack, and replace the outputter
17:07:18 <whoppix> ehird, bet it doesn't even pass the cpan kwalitee requirements :P
17:07:44 <ehird> about as much as yours is
17:07:56 <whoppix> yeah yeah, I know, its just for fun anyways.
17:08:43 <whoppix> Hm, I could implement a max stack size option.
17:08:57 <ehird> that's easy in mine, too
17:09:53 <whoppix> not that that would be a usefull feature, but anway.
17:10:05 <AnMaster> irritating, if I open something in firefox and it asks to confirm cookie, (and blink the process bar once), when I switch to it the "confirm cookie dialog" ends up behind the main firefox window
17:10:10 <AnMaster> sure non-modal dialogs are good bug...
17:10:47 <SimonRC> Windows loves to put pop-up baloons behing the start bar where I can't see them grr
17:11:27 <AnMaster> and it doesn't happen with konqueror, only with firefox
17:11:35 <ehird> simonrc is referring to a related but different situation
17:11:40 <ehird> we all know you don't use windows goddammit
17:11:41 <SimonRC> whoppix: I have my bar on the LHS
17:11:54 <AnMaster> ehird, was just clarifying what happened to me
17:12:43 <AnMaster> well that is what LHC is. No idea about LHS
17:15:15 <AnMaster> actually when I google define:LHC it seems like for once there is a TLA that is not used for more than one thing
17:15:46 <AnMaster> (oh the irony, TLA is a TLA with more than one meaning....)
17:16:51 <SimonRC> I recently discovered that the Java typesystem is terribly useful when one is trying to set up mocks using reflection.
17:17:12 <SimonRC> you just end up telling it to bugger off
17:17:42 <SimonRC> and compilers disagree about what is allowed grr
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17:25:04 <ehird> my underload interp works
17:25:08 <ehird> I only had one bug, and that was a missing char.
17:25:21 <ehird> it's also fast, and short, and robust, what point was I trying to prove again? XD
17:26:03 <ehird> also, you can control how many instructions can run, with (...) counting as 1 instruction
17:26:08 <ehird> and how large the stack can be
17:26:30 <ehird> and you can control where the outputter goes, and run a program on a custom stack
17:26:50 <ehird> ah, ^ has a small bug
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17:35:20 <whoppix> Off to the concerts, see you around
17:35:51 <oerjan> your ears will be toast, though
17:36:26 <oerjan> * oklofyug writes his first youtube comment
17:37:37 <oklopol> yes, i wanted to join the stereotype
17:39:56 <oklopol> that's one sinister character mister.
17:40:00 <oerjan> interesting, the virus scanner finally managed to start a scheduled scan
17:41:15 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo
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17:41:44 <ehird> LAMENT REVERSES HIS AGE
17:42:37 <oerjan> i don't want to reverse my age. i think oklopol agrees.
17:43:07 <oerjan> with the maybe being dead and all
17:44:06 <oerjan> <ehird> but yes, I'm rather wondering what the heck ##sl4 has to do with sins
17:44:30 <oerjan> i think kerlo must have made an AI without ensuring it was friendly
17:45:35 <oerjan> fortunately it decided earth was too boring to care about, so went to conquer the andromeda galaxy instead
17:46:55 <oerjan> <ehird> i hope the singularity doesn't make us all too intellectual for terrible puns.
17:47:23 <oerjan> of course not. but the new terrible puns will be incomprehensible to who we are now.
17:47:53 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:48:29 <oerjan> also, fart jokes will be replaced with nebula jokes
17:49:14 <oerjan> and jokes about the methane creatures on Titan
17:49:50 <oerjan> who will protest that they are not actually smelly
17:51:59 <oerjan> <ehird> Unfortunately for the singularity, we still haven't asked AC how to reverse entropy.
17:52:21 <oerjan> someone asked that billions of years ago. it designed us as the answer.
17:52:37 <oerjan> also, we really shouldn't turn on LHC.
17:52:59 -!- upyr[ema` has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:53:04 <Slereah> Hey, it's my internship >:|
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17:53:14 <SimonRC> oerjan: heh, I was listening to that last night too
17:53:17 <Slereah> Without the LHC, I ain't getting ma master!
17:54:04 <oerjan> note those comments were connected, btw
17:54:40 <oklopol> slerry what shall ya do there?
17:54:40 <SimonRC> oerjan: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007jwp4
17:54:51 <oerjan> "I've _got_ to destroy the world, otherwise I won't graduate"
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17:55:56 <oklopol> oerjan: i might want to reverse my age shortly though, you know, retry.
17:57:41 <oerjan> oklopol: you want to go back to diapers?
17:57:42 <ehird> oklopol: your jew tube profile says you're 21
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17:58:16 * oerjan had the impression oklopol was 19
17:58:20 <ktne> anyone here who actually understands how chicken scheme implements call/cc?
17:58:28 <oklopol> i probably registered while i was underage?
17:58:46 <oerjan> ktne: ehird, possibly?
17:58:54 <ktne> oerjan: well, is he around?
17:58:57 <oklopol> and didn't know how youtube works regarding underage + viewing big-boy vids
17:59:03 <ktne> ehird: i kept reading that
17:59:08 <ehird> and all functions therefore get the continuation as the last argument
17:59:13 <ktne> ehird: i still don't get how call/cc works
17:59:14 <ehird> in the implementaiton:
17:59:33 <ktne> ehird: but what about local variables?
17:59:33 <ehird> primitive-function(f, k) { call(f, arguments=[k], continuation=k) }
17:59:43 <ehird> read the cheney on the mta paper, it explains it
17:59:49 <ktne> i've read that numerous times :)
17:59:57 <ktne> i just don't get it :(
17:59:58 <ehird> not hard enough :-)
18:00:03 <ehird> read the example compilation
18:00:06 <ktne> i understand what it does
18:00:14 <ktne> except i don't really understand how tail calls work
18:00:22 <ktne> how is that there is no stack explosion with this method?
18:00:32 <ktne> since the stack frames are still pushed on each function call
18:00:33 <ehird> because you clear the stack periordically
18:00:40 <ehird> with setjmp/longjmp
18:00:40 <ktne> so it does explode
18:00:44 <ehird> read the example compilation
18:00:52 <ehird> ktne: no, tail recursion works forever
18:00:53 <ktne> well i understand what happens when you fill up the stack
18:01:01 <ehird> read the example compilation
18:01:12 <ehird> you GC, then clear the stack
18:01:19 <ktne> i understand that
18:01:21 <ehird> read the example compilation
18:01:28 <ehird> it explains all this
18:01:31 <ktne> but then the tailcall will trash memory
18:01:36 <SimonRC> the idea of a tail call is that instead of "call foo; return" you do "goto foo"
18:01:55 <ktne> SimonRC: i understand that, but this method seems to use normal C functions
18:02:06 <ktne> the taillcall continues filling up the stack
18:02:16 <ktne> ehird: i've read that
18:02:29 <ehird> it answers your questions...
18:02:35 <ktne> as a detail, why it doesn't use the paging mechanism to detect overflow?
18:02:49 <ehird> it can if you want
18:03:16 * oerjan somehow wonders what Dick Cheney has to do with functional programming
18:03:35 <ktne> ehird: but will the stack grow if you have a tailcall? that's what i'm asking
18:03:48 <ktne> or will the stack pointer stay constant?
18:03:50 <ehird> ktne: yes but then it'll be emptied perioridically
18:03:59 <ktne> that was the whole thing
18:04:01 <ehird> so tail calls still work
18:04:07 <ktne> so basically it does trash your memory
18:04:18 <ehird> read the example compilation!!!
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18:04:21 <ktne> well it keeps allocating
18:04:25 <ktne> until it fills up
18:04:29 <ktne> then it clears
18:04:41 <ehird> besides you can do tail call optimization with it anyway
18:04:52 <ehird> so it isn't even an issue if it was an issue which it wasn't
18:04:55 <ktne> so is it possible?
18:05:21 <ktne> to use in-place execution
18:05:37 <ktne> because this method naively implemented still walks around the stack
18:05:44 <ktne> it just that it clears the stack periodically
18:06:00 <ehird> so don't implement it naively
18:06:23 <ktne> well this was my problem
18:06:29 <ktne> because it doesn't look efficient at all
18:07:04 <ktne> it looks horrible if you don't implement tailcall optimisations
18:07:21 <ktne> because the stack pointer keeps walking around
18:07:25 <ehird> look, you ask for suggestions on implementing a dynamic language functionally quickly
18:07:30 <ehird> I tell you about cheney on the mta, point you to chickn
18:07:32 <ehird> all you do is complain
18:07:37 <ehird> "doesn't look efficient to me" etc etc
18:07:38 <ktne> no, i do not complain
18:07:45 <ktne> it's just that you told me that it's there
18:07:51 <ktne> and it wasn't there
18:08:21 <ktne> ok, but what about call/cc
18:08:26 <ktne> that definitivelly isn't there
18:08:44 <ktne> how do you save your current continuation
18:08:49 <ktne> i understand how you pass it
18:08:53 <ktne> but how do you save it
18:08:57 <ktne> it's not tehre
18:09:05 <ehird> you're not making any sense
18:09:38 <ktne> this paper makes no sense
18:09:45 <ktne> it's just a quick innacurate description
18:10:02 <ehird> that's rather accurate, accurate enough for a computer at least
18:10:13 <ktne> the problem with the paper is that is too terse
18:10:21 <ktne> it doesn't really tell anything except that stack trick
18:10:24 <ehird> and the example compilation
18:10:43 <ktne> maybe i'm dumb :(
18:11:32 <ehird> just read chicken's source
18:12:59 <ktne> i'm opening a project right now
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18:19:03 <ktne> btw, is chicken scheme state-of-the-art?
18:19:12 <ktne> or it's just a fast enough implementation?
18:20:19 <ktne> i read that chez scheme is fastest implementation available
18:23:07 <ehird> chicken scheme is pretty fast
18:23:12 <ehird> chez is the fastest but is $$$$$$$$
18:23:29 <ktne> i'm asking this because i'm designing my own language
18:23:44 <ktne> and i'm now sure whenever to add continuations or not, they are very powerful
18:24:00 <SimonRC> maybe some kind of restricted continuation?
18:24:00 <ktne> but the naive way i can implement them it's so slow
18:24:03 <ehird> Well, you've made closures awful for the sake of speed, I don't think continuations are worth it.
18:24:11 <ehird> Of course, you're just building C here.
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18:24:57 <ktne> ehird: i'm looking for something "possible if you want" instead of clean, and a keyword for those closure vars is not that bad i think
18:25:14 <ktne> especially since it you gain code readability too
18:25:19 <ehird> it is, i would just ignore closures altogether if forced to program in such a languag
18:26:50 <ktne> what is the name of the method specified in "cheney on the mta" paper?
18:27:03 <ehird> Cheney on the mta.
18:27:17 <ehird> ktne: also google: Cons should not cons its arguments
18:27:32 <ktne> ok, whatever with this method
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18:27:45 <ktne> you can allocate all closure variables on stack if their size is known
18:27:56 <ktne> or even if their size is variable
18:28:07 <ehird> that's what the example compilation does
18:28:08 <ktne> except if they are very large, in which case you have to allocate them in the heap
18:28:24 <ktne> so i guess i could get clean closures at no cost
18:28:53 <ktne> ok, so i could remove that limitation
18:29:31 <ktne> can you provide me a hint on where to start looking in chicken scheme?
18:29:43 <ktne> i'm looking for the call/cc implementation, the place where the current continuation is saved
18:29:51 <ehird> ktne: here's how you implement call/cc
18:30:12 <ehird> (define (call/cc f #k) (call-with-specified-continuation (f #k) #k))
18:30:22 <ehird> where #k is the continuation argument passed to the end of all compiled functions
18:30:31 <ehird> as you can tell, that call/cc is O(1).
18:30:44 <ehird> ktne: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style
18:31:01 <ehird> you transform the input program to CPS
18:31:03 <ktne> do languages that do not use CPS
18:31:07 <ktne> have to copy the stack?
18:31:12 <ktne> or how do they save the continuation?
18:31:22 <ehird> that's why you use CPS :-)
18:31:46 <ehird> a bonus of CPS: since you make tons and tons of closures for the continuation, you're forced to make your closures really fast
18:31:50 <ehird> which is a big win for closure use
18:32:39 <ktne> ok, thanks, i have to do some work for 15min now
18:33:34 <ktne> i was confused about copying the stack
18:33:49 <ehird> yeah, this is all pretty tricky until you just "get" it
18:34:03 <ehird> CPS + cheney on the mta reduces the amount of places you have to optimize, though
18:34:13 <ehird> cps lets you not optimize continuations, focusing instead on closures
18:34:27 <ehird> cheney on the mta lets you get really fast calls, focusing your optimization instead on the gc
18:34:41 <ehird> so in the end, most optimization boils down to closures and the gc
18:34:53 <ehird> and both have quite a bit of literature on optimizing them
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19:04:37 <ktne> is it possible to implement retriable exceptions?
19:04:52 <ehird> they're continuations
19:05:06 <ehird> the exception handler is a continuation, and if you pass a continuation at the point of the start of the try block to them,
19:05:09 <ehird> they can jump back in
19:05:15 <ehird> isn't it nice how everything reduces to continuations :P
19:05:29 <ktne> that's why i would like to have them
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19:07:07 <ktne> how is cheney on the mta compatible with optimized tailcalls?
19:09:23 <ehird> just do it like normal
19:11:38 <ktne> but what happens if you have a try block inside a tailcall-optimized function?
19:11:54 <ktne> how would the exception be thrown?
19:12:22 <ktne> because there are missing stack frames
19:12:27 <ktne> (optimized away)
19:12:35 <oerjan> obviously inside a try block is not a tail position
19:13:05 <ktne> hmm, let me think
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19:13:59 <ktne> let's suppose we use an obtuse fibonacci implementation
19:14:31 <ktne> fib(2) throws an exception
19:14:54 <ktne> and if that exception is caught then you return the precomputed fib(2) constant
19:15:13 <ktne> that indeed appears not to be a tailcall
19:15:46 <ktne> because you must execute the code that pops the exception handler from the stack before "returning"
19:15:55 <ktne> but then, what about a loop?
19:16:02 <ktne> a loop that has a try block inside
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19:16:56 <ktne> for(i=i;i<n;i++) { try { ... } catch { ... } };
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19:22:45 <oerjan> but it's a bit too small to see if there's a try block inside
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19:28:05 <oklopol> great way to hide you're not actually executing that
19:28:40 <oklopol> in a hypothetical language that doesn't initialize variables to anything coherent automatically that is
19:29:52 <oerjan> in a very hypothetical language, couldn't i = i cause a crash? :D
19:30:46 <SimonRC> if you try to evaluate that i, you'd get a <<<loop>>> error
19:30:47 <oerjan> er i was assuming C-like
19:31:36 <SimonRC> how about if i is an uninitialised reference?
19:31:44 <kerlo> i = i: set i to a fixed point of the function returning i given i.
19:32:06 <oerjan> something that doesn't initialize, and in which assignment can look at contents
19:32:29 <ktne> i meant i=0 :)
19:32:39 <kerlo> It's easy to prove that the identity function has a fixed point because it's a rotation. :-P
19:32:40 <oerjan> does C++ allow this? i don't know it
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19:36:01 <oerjan> a very twisted concept
19:36:11 <kerlo> For any given axis, the identity function is a rotation by 0 about that axis.
19:38:47 <ktne> is it possible to optimize loops such the above one in scheme?
19:39:31 <oerjan> well the goto the beginning isn't actually inside the try block...
19:39:47 <oerjan> unless you use some escape command
19:40:04 <oerjan> in which case that should probably break out of the try block too
19:40:08 <ktne> " goto the beginning" i'm not sure i understand this
19:41:24 <ktne> i expect a lot of code to be written in this form in my language
19:41:30 <ktne> mostly for array processing
19:42:29 <oerjan> ktne: if you implement loops as tail recursion, the try block there won't actually be _part_ of the recursion
19:42:54 <oerjan> just something done before recursing
19:43:06 <ktne> i'm not sure i understand it
19:43:19 <ktne> i will have to translate that loop in CPS form first
19:51:05 <ktne> is there a good paper on transforming C-like languages in CPS form?
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20:03:47 -!- mib_mksvta has joined.
20:05:57 <mib_mksvta> Current holdup: how to nicely load/unload plugins at runtime (they're written in haskell)
20:06:26 <oerjan> well there's a hackage library iirc
20:08:13 <mib_mksvta> oerjan: it just calls ghc, doesn't it?
20:08:19 <mib_mksvta> I could shell out to ghc, then use something like dlopen.
20:08:44 <oerjan> it also uses some internal module loading stuff i think
20:09:02 <mib_mksvta> yeah, dlopen won't get the instance of Plugin which is important
20:09:41 <oerjan> anyhow, i haven't looked much into it
20:10:10 <mib_mksvta> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/unix/System-Posix-DynamicLinker.html
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20:11:47 <mib_mksvta> This library is distributed under the terms of the LGPL:
20:12:31 <mib_mksvta> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/ghc/index.html eek
20:13:02 <oerjan> no, ehird is ehird. you are an EVIL IMPOSTER.
20:13:34 <oerjan> taking advantage of ehird's awayitude
20:14:57 <mib_mksvta> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/ghc/GHC.html Promising
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20:16:27 <SimonRC> GregorR: how long have you been reading Spamusement?
20:18:22 <GregorR> Idonno, I think I read through them first shortly before stevenf stopped, then somebody recently sent me a link to a comic on the forums and so I started reading those :P
20:19:24 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: what was the sin you told ##sl4
20:19:31 * kerlo mumbles something about sparse error correction codes
20:19:49 <kerlo> mib_mksvta: believing the conclusion more strongly than the premises.
20:20:27 <kerlo> For example: "It is probably raining. If it is raining, Daniel is probably carrying an umbrella. Therefore, Daniel is almost certainly carrying an umbrella."
20:24:15 <kerlo> If understanding AI is possible, Friendly AI is almost certainly possible. Understanding AI is probably possible. Therefore, Friendly AI is almost certainly possible.
20:25:17 <oerjan> puck up the fun, i say
20:26:43 <mib_mksvta> I'm pretty sure kerlo will be responsible for the singularity which is why I said that
20:27:08 <mib_mksvta> so kerlo, make sure stupid puns stay intact. also, omit oklopol from the singularity. he's hilarious enough as is. we need him post-singularity, you see, otherwise the world will collapse. of lack of oko.
20:27:09 <SimonRC> GregorR: I have been known to like to their forums, so maybe me
20:27:17 <oerjan> kerlo: it follows by a similar argument to yours
20:27:23 <mib_mksvta> now give fungot self-improvement routines
20:27:24 <fungot> mib_mksvta: that it is. if this still does not possess less than the maximum
20:27:30 <GregorR> SimonRC: Who are you on the forums?
20:27:39 -!- Slereah2 has joined.
20:27:59 <GregorR> SimonRC: (And no, "somebody" != "I don't remember who", I do remember who it's just not somebody relevant to this audience)
20:28:13 <kerlo> Something like this: I am possibly the smartest person in the world. It's likely that the smartest person in the world will be responsible for the Singularity. Therefore, I will almost certainly be responsible for the Singularity.
20:28:24 <oerjan> it is recommended that you _don't_ include oklopol among the goals of the AI. we don't want the solar system tiled with o's and k's.
20:28:39 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: No, more like only you're batshit insane enough to actually get the singularity going.
20:28:44 <kerlo> That would only happen if I decided to give the Solar System to oklopol for some reason. :-)
20:28:50 <mib_mksvta> The others don't write their AI by starting with fungot, you see.
20:28:51 <fungot> mib_mksvta: 3) entities explicitly specified by the clerk of the
20:29:02 <kerlo> Ah, yes, I do have a reputation for being batshit insane.
20:29:15 <mib_mksvta> oerjan: I dunno, the whole universe replaced by okokokokoko over and over again would be abso-frickin-lutely hilarious.
20:29:41 <kerlo> You'd have to be batshit insane to mumble something about low-density parity check codes.
20:29:59 <mib_mksvta> Incidentally, I don't really buy the Singularitarian view of a point of infinite improvement.
20:30:12 <kerlo> What's the Singularitaritaritarian view?
20:30:20 <oerjan> mib_mksvta: but if an oko falls in the forest and there is noone there to see it...
20:30:47 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: The singularity is defined as the point where the recursive exponential self-improvement of the AI hits a point where it improves itself an infinite amount of times.
20:31:04 <mib_mksvta> I argue that there cannot be such a point, due to the planck time and other universal limits.
20:31:07 <kerlo> That's a really weird definition.
20:31:10 <mib_mksvta> It can go very, very fast, but not infinitely.
20:31:14 <kerlo> Anyone who subscribes to it is silly.
20:31:38 <kerlo> Don't tell me EY subscribes to it.
20:31:39 <mib_mksvta> It's in one of his essays. Go find it or something.
20:31:55 <ktne> anyone here knows a human readable paper on CPS transformation? From a C-like language to CPS form. The papers i have found are quite dense.
20:32:30 <kerlo> Rather: "I'm sure you are correct, but I believe that in circumstances like this, it happens that the burden of proof falls on you, not me, for which I apologize deeply."
20:32:54 <SimonRC> Singularitarianism, like many other things, ranges from people who believe the obvious (Computers are going to get a hell of a lot more powerful), through those that believe the reasonable (There are several internet-level societal revolutions to come), to the ridiculous (suddenly we all ascend to a higher plane of existance and spread across the galaxy within the century)
20:33:17 <oerjan> a quintillion apologies, tiled onto the universe
20:33:31 <kerlo> Higher plane of existence, sort of. Spreading across the galaxy, maybe not. :-P
20:34:07 <SimonRC> humans are not going to seriously go to the stars
20:34:13 <SimonRC> something derived from them? maybe
20:34:26 <ktne> what about mind uploading?
20:34:33 <ktne> i think that would be more beneficial
20:34:37 <SimonRC> I'm not counting them under humans
20:34:39 <ktne> and with that you could go to the stars
20:34:47 <ktne> well they are persons
20:34:52 <ktne> even if they are not biological
20:34:59 <SimonRC> but if physical humans ever get there it will be for the amusement of some other more powerful type of entity
20:35:06 <oerjan> what is reasonable depends on unknown physical limits
20:35:14 <SimonRC> ktne: I mean, not space opera
20:37:01 <SimonRC> mib_mksvta: given that the strictness analyser is the most important part of the GHC optimiser, I agree that that is an unfortunate name
20:37:30 <oerjan> SimonRC: well i would certainly hope it is being anal about what it does
20:39:01 <SimonRC> I don't think Freud had computer programs in mind
20:39:55 <oerjan> no he had his mother in mind, obviously
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20:40:40 <SimonRC> Sigmund Freud is his grandson, y'know.
20:41:53 <kerlo> I'd say that pre-Singularity biological humans are deserving ipso facto.
20:42:09 <kerlo> (Raise your hand if you think that was a batshit insane thing to say.)
20:43:59 <kerlo> Do you know what "ipso facto" means?
20:46:25 <oerjan> while half-humans must ipso facto half not be
20:47:02 <kerlo> Half-humans are probably not pre-Singularity.
20:50:26 * SimonRC considers the riots of the 40s
20:50:50 <SimonRC> where 10000 furries want the right to GM their children
20:51:38 <oerjan> and then the riots of the 2060, when the children reverse that
20:53:13 <oerjan> although by 2070 it will be moot since people can reengineer themselves on the fly
20:54:35 <Ilari> Yes, it will be fun if ones idea of fun is sufficiently twisted... :-)
20:56:46 <SimonRC> oerjan: if you believe Accellerando, the Earth will have been disassembled by the end of the century.
20:57:46 <oerjan> by 2100 everyone will be so sick of it that they will live in virtual simulations of close to the year 2000.
20:58:13 <oerjan> and coincidentally, this is recursive, and we're not the first iteration.
21:00:55 <Ilari> I say by 2100, society can't even sustain current level of technological development... :-/
21:04:47 <SimonRC> Orion's Arm gives some intersting reasons why any non-related civilisations we eventually meet are likely to be at a technological level to our own.
21:04:58 <mib_mksvta> SimonRCSingularitarianism, like many other things, ranges from people who believe the obvious (Computers are going to get a hell of a lot more powerful), through those that believe the reasonable (There are several internet-level societal revolutions to come), to the ridiculous (suddenly we all ascend to a higher plane of existance and spread across the galaxy within the century)
21:05:06 <mib_mksvta> I am referring to Eliezer Yudkowsky's beliefs, mainly.
21:06:35 <SimonRC> (The idea is they are so distant that we will meet them by contact of high-speed wormhole ends being carted around. Time dilation means that ultra-long-distance exploration will still not take much time at our end.)
21:06:38 <mib_mksvta> Now take the Transcended version of S{n}, starting at 2. Half a time-unit later, we have 3. A third of a time-unit after that, 6. A sixth later - one whole unit after this function started - we have 64. A sixty-fourth later, 10^80. An unimaginably tiny fraction of a second later... Singularity.
21:06:39 <mib_mksvta> http://yudkowsky.net/obsolete/singularity.html
21:06:52 <mib_mksvta> Yes, it is marked as Obsolete, though.
21:07:53 <Ilari> What I think about those: "Computers are going to get a hell a lot more poweful": Doubtful. "There are several internet-level societal revolutions to come": There are multiple large societal revolutions coming. "suddenly we all ascend to a higher plane of existance and spread across the galaxy within the century": Utterly ridiculous.
21:09:11 <mib_mksvta> "Computers are going to get a hell a lot more poweful": Doubtful?!?!?!?!
21:10:06 <oklopol> i don't find that an unreasonable assumption
21:10:48 <oklopol> well we've hit the wall already, who says there's a simple way out.
21:11:43 <oklopol> i mean i don't believe that, but i don't think it's a ridiculous assumption.
21:12:49 <mib_mksvta> One ridiculous thing EY's said: both "we cannot comprehend higher-than-human intelligence, duhh" and "we can make a higher-than-human intelligence AI"
21:15:25 <oerjan> mib_mksvta: i think that means we cannot comprehend the _consequences_, but we can still set up the _initial_ concept
21:15:52 <oklopol> well that's the science fiction aspect, X is cool and higher-level, and X could exist
21:16:08 <mib_mksvta> No, he's said that if we could understand things more intelligent than ourselves we'd be that intelligent.
21:17:12 <mib_mksvta> Ilari: care to justify that "doubtful"?
21:18:31 <Ilari> mib_mksvta: Essentially running against technological limits in multiple ways, and not being able to deal with the consequences.
21:18:51 <mib_mksvta> Ilari: I don't disagree that there are limits, I just think that current computers are very far from them.
21:19:55 <Ilari> mib_mksvta: Some other limitations make how far current computers are from theoretical limits pretty much irrelevant...
21:22:17 <Ilari> And besides, increasingly advanced semiconductor fabs are becoming exponentially more expensive...
21:23:04 <Ilari> The most signaficant one: Energy.
21:23:19 <Ilari> More precisely, technologically usable energy.
21:23:43 <mib_mksvta> But we can come up with more efficient energy, too, no?
21:24:07 <Ilari> Energy use efficency improvements don't yield that much.
21:24:33 <oerjan> there is plenty of energy from the sun
21:24:53 <oerjan> just the other day there was this energy chart on reddit
21:25:11 <Ilari> Yes, on order of 100PW, but how much of that is technologically usable?
21:25:37 <oerjan> one thing sticking in the mind: energy from sun per DAY > all electricity used since tesla
21:25:50 <mib_mksvta> Note that I'm not so sure about the Singularity: I find the prospect of an X level intelligence being able to create an X+Y intelligence unlikely. kerlo will probably argue with me about this. :P
21:25:56 <Ilari> (Electricity is 'technologically usable energy').
21:26:01 <mib_mksvta> I do think computers are going to get a lot more powerful, though.
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21:28:01 <mib_mksvta> hi GreaseMonkey. We're discussing the technological singularity.
21:28:30 <Ilari> My opinion of tecnological singularity is that its utter pile of crock...
21:28:58 <GreaseMonkey> hmm, i think that we should have some common standards
21:29:06 <mib_mksvta> Ilari: I think you're one of the two extremes in this channel, the other of which is kerlo, as far as I know.
21:30:12 <GreaseMonkey> so yeah, uh, what do you mean by "technological singularity"?
21:31:21 <mib_mksvta> The creation of a smarter-than-human AI which recursively self-improves.
21:31:25 <mib_mksvta> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
21:32:59 <mib_mksvta> tl;dr so far: kerlo talks about it like it's obviously happening, I say some things, SimonRC is extremely ... moderate, Ilari says it's a bunch of bullshit
21:33:38 <Ilari> And doing stuff that we have no idea of consequences of gives me creeps (fortunately I don't see this one happening)...
21:34:04 <mib_mksvta> Ilari: Thank god you've never been around when someone's trying to make progress.
21:34:04 <GreaseMonkey> while someone may be able to create a program which can fix its own bugs and the bugs of others, i don't think it will be able to be a heck of a lot more intelligent than us.
21:34:19 <GreaseMonkey> it would have to be based on a neural network for it to do that
21:34:29 <GreaseMonkey> and then again, you'll probably run out of RAM.
21:34:44 <oerjan> always practice extreme moderation
21:34:53 <mib_mksvta> a recursive self-improver more intelligent than us could find RAM, surely
21:35:12 <mib_mksvta> GreaseMonkey: that's rather ridiculous, neural networks can't do all that much
21:35:28 <mib_mksvta> they're as much thinking as markov chains are conversationing
21:36:09 <mib_mksvta> GreaseMonkey: so you think AI will _never_ progress beyond neural networks?
21:36:26 <GreaseMonkey> i'm saying that neural networks is probably the path to go along
21:36:44 <Ilari> No idea of consequences is pretty much different from understanding the consequences even poorly...
21:37:47 <mib_mksvta> I'd say progress we had no idea of the consequences of has happened before.
21:38:00 <mib_mksvta> But if it's going to happen, it's not going to be something we can choose...
21:38:30 <Ilari> And worse yet, understanding the consequences but not paying attention to them...
21:38:57 <mib_mksvta> The singularity would pretty much be the definition of not understanding the consequences, so that doesn't really apply
21:39:16 <GreaseMonkey> also, if you want a good degree of intelligence, you could use a neural network for triggering behaviours based on "emotions", and "emotions" based on input
21:39:22 <mib_mksvta> Although if we're going to kill ourselves off, it'll probably happen in some simpler way.
21:39:36 <mib_mksvta> GreaseMonkey: That's kind of simplistic. Whereby kind of I mean really
21:40:16 <kerlo> Neural nets are weird.
21:40:31 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: so what -is- your opinion on the singularity
21:41:21 <kerlo> Bayesian networks are theoretically nice. The problem with the neural networks we have is that they don't seem to be self-modifying in any way.
21:41:37 <kerlo> mib_mksvta: my opinion is "yes".
21:41:45 <kerlo> Are you asking what I think the consequences will be?
21:42:01 <kerlo> mib_mksvta: more detailed question plz?
21:42:01 <mib_mksvta> Yeah. What consequences, how will it come about, ...
21:42:28 <mib_mksvta> mib_mksvtaYeah. What consequences, how will it come about, ...
21:42:32 <Ilari> There is pretty big difference between just inventing some technology and actually using that technology.
21:42:34 <kerlo> Let me go ahead and design a neural net real quick, 'kay? :-P
21:44:23 <kerlo> Sorry, I got disconnected for a moment.
21:44:52 <mib_mksvta> kerlomib_mksvta: more detailed question plz? 21:42mib_mksvtamib_mksvtaYeah. What consequences, how will it come about, ...
21:44:53 <kerlo> mib_mksvta: well, I can't say how it'll come about. Might emerge relatively spontaneously from a collection of relatively intelligent things.
21:45:32 <kerlo> It might be created by a Manhattan Project, it might be created by an educated genius, it might be created by an ignorant genius.
21:46:34 <kerlo> Within 100 years is likely, it seems.
21:47:07 <mib_mksvta> Alright then... Consequences? (Let's say 'immediately after' for a time frame).
21:48:32 <mib_mksvta> As in, Mr. My First Singularity hits enter on his keyboard after typing "ghc --make smarter_than_human_ai; ./smarter_than_human_ai".
21:48:40 <lament> all my body parts are pretty.
21:49:08 <kerlo> Perhaps it would discreetly take over the Internet.
21:49:14 <mib_mksvta> SimonRC: he's replying to an ancient comment.
21:50:01 <oerjan> mib_mksvta: it could be trying to assure there's no unfriendly ones out there :D
21:50:09 <kerlo> Perhaps it would discreetly take over the Internet, set up an oracle service, earn money, and repay the people it took computer stuff from.
21:50:42 <mib_mksvta> I would say that discreetly taking over the internet is not a Friendly task regardless of how it pays back.
21:51:22 <kerlo> That's comparable to saying that cutting people open is evil regardless of how it pays back.
21:51:42 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: If the singularity kills someone, then makes 10 babies, that isn't Friendly.
21:51:55 <Ilari> If it wanted to do really hostile act, perhaps it would attack control computers of all kinds of real-world important systems. Attack and successfully disable power grid and its game over.
21:51:56 <kerlo> What if the Singularity kills someone, then saves ten?
21:52:19 <mib_mksvta> Ilari: the idea is to make it not do that.
21:52:41 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: How do you define Friendly AI? I'd define it as an AI applying utilitarianism over humanity.
21:53:05 <mib_mksvta> So killing one person, then saving ten -- if they must be interlinked -- is probably Friendly.
21:53:17 <mib_mksvta> But doing harm to the internet, and merely paying back, is still an unfriendly act.
21:53:37 <kerlo> Utilitarianism does not value equality at all.
21:53:52 <mib_mksvta> That is true. It values the group as a whole.
21:54:07 <kerlo> Then again, people wouldn't like extreme inequality.
21:54:24 * SimonRC dislikes this area of conversation.
21:54:28 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: Yeah, but think of what would happen if Ayn Rand wrote the seed AI.
21:54:40 <kerlo> So I would probably consider utilitarianism a valid approach.
21:54:57 <kerlo> Is Ayn Rand an extreme deregulationist libertarian dude?
21:56:53 <kerlo> With deregulation stuff, all humans get laid off and starve.
21:57:14 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: I wonder how mainstream news organizations and politicians would react?
21:57:47 <kerlo> That would be fun.
21:58:10 <mib_mksvta> "A terrist is trying to take over the world with his computer! We must bomb him and his network before it is too late!"
21:58:24 <kerlo> It would be quite terroristic.
21:58:54 <kerlo> "A human is trying to step on our hill! We must bite him repeatedly bite him before it is too late!" --an ant
21:59:17 <mib_mksvta> We must repeatedly before it is too late!
21:59:33 <mib_mksvta> "The 'Singularity Institute' for 'Artificial Intelligence' today announced that they had 'created "smarter than human AI"'. SOME SCIENTISTS say that this is in fact a load of rubb*evaporates into the stars as a God*"
21:59:36 <kerlo> There was no g at the end.
22:01:04 <mib_mksvta> So, prediction: kerlo will cause the singularity by modifying fungot. oklopol will be the only human left behind, as he is ominipotent and oko and immune.
22:01:05 <fungot> mib_mksvta: an agoran decision has an honor of each week,
22:01:12 <mib_mksvta> All opinions to the contrary are wrong.
22:01:59 <kerlo> Wait, isn't fungot just a Markov chain bot?
22:02:00 <fungot> kerlo: their debts to each officer with a list of all shareholders.) the delegated player ceases to to
22:02:14 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: It can also execute Brainfuck and Underload.
22:02:28 <mib_mksvta> because you, kerlo, are batshit insane.
22:02:42 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt Get to work
22:02:43 <fungot> mib_mksvta: ( c) a player who makes further play impossible by eir actions or lack thereof, or
22:02:50 <oerjan> this is obviously logical
22:03:50 <kerlo> Can't I just run a random subleq program instead?
22:04:29 <kerlo> Anyway, suppose I were to batshit insanely start trying to make AI right now.
22:04:52 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: btw, since you think the singularity will happen, does that mean you think intelligence X can comprehend X+Y intelligence? (well, you must)
22:05:26 <kerlo> To an extent, certainly.
22:05:50 <kerlo> Well, it depends on whether "intelligence" includes capacity for improvement.
22:05:55 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: so you believe there is a lower bound on X and the higher bound on Y?
22:06:08 <mib_mksvta> That is, a monkey can't understand a human but a human could understand the seed AI to write it?
22:06:09 <kerlo> Do you see anything inherently wrong with creating an idiot that becomes a genius?
22:06:29 <mib_mksvta> No, I'm just not sure humans can understand smarter-than-human intelligence to create an AI that is
22:06:37 <Ilari> It is possible to get to X+Y intelligence without X intelligence understanding it. But that's likely too complicated to be practical with technological stuff...
22:07:03 <mib_mksvta> if humans can create smarter-than-human AI, we don't have to
22:07:05 <kerlo> We don't need to create smarter-than-us intelligence, only more-flexible-than-us intelligence that can make itself smarter than us.
22:07:06 <mib_mksvta> we just have to create human-intelligence AI
22:07:13 <mib_mksvta> which can then make the smarter-than-us intelligence for us.
22:07:35 <mib_mksvta> Making something in equal intelligence to us' easiness >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Making something more intelligent than us's easiness
22:09:25 <kerlo> If I have something whose intelligence is equal to mine, improving it by anything at all will make it more intelligent than me.
22:10:22 <kerlo> It seems that *the* problem with Friendly AI, and perhaps strong AI as well, is making it so that the AI will recognize any change to itself that would change its supergoal before making such a change.
22:11:53 <kerlo> So we ought to find a class of changes to AI guaranteed not to change its supergoal.
22:11:56 <mib_mksvta> If the AI box worked, it could just simulate it to see. Unfortunately...
22:12:42 <kerlo> Even if it worked, it would have to simulate a modified version of itself, plus, presumably, bits of the universe.
22:13:59 <mib_mksvta> These things sure are complicated, huh?
22:14:35 <kerlo> That's why I refuse to think about anything complicated.
22:14:42 <mib_mksvta> :( I tried to teach a neural network addition on two bits
22:14:46 <kerlo> If you want to be batshit insane, you have to learn to ignore these things.
22:15:17 <kerlo> So we ought to find a class of changes to AI guaranteed not to change its supergoal. And then, um...
22:15:37 <kerlo> Oh, we also have to find a way to prove that the supergoal of an AI is in fact a given thing.
22:17:24 <oerjan> iiuc there is also the problem of finding the right supergoal
22:19:24 <kerlo> Can an AI really be said to have precisely one supergoal?
22:19:43 <ktne> well, if it has multiple goals
22:20:01 <ktne> then it needs some comparation metric to use to decide which one will follow
22:20:08 <ktne> at least for the moment
22:20:15 <mib_mksvta> i think the supergoal is meant to be the overriding goal
22:20:19 <ktne> but this means that there is just one weighted supergoal
22:20:32 <kerlo> CEV: "Give us (humanity) what we would wish for if we knew more, thought faster, were more the people we wished we were, had grown up farther together; where the extrapolation converges rather than diverges, where our wishes cohere rather than interfere; extrapolated as we wish that extrapolated, interpreted as we wish that interpreted."
22:20:59 <kerlo> That's not what I mean.
22:21:30 <kerlo> If the AI wants the diamond, and it believes that the only way to get the diamond is by getting box A, and so it decides to get box A, what is its supergoal?
22:21:40 <kerlo> I guess I need more iffage.
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22:22:05 <kerlo> If all that and it also decided that it would not change its mind about its decision to get box A no matter what.
22:23:27 <kerlo> The thing is, I guess, its supergoal is to get the diamond, but it's incompetent at doing so.
22:23:39 <mib_mksvta> If you want the diamond and think the only way to get the diamond is via box A, and you realise you can't get the diamond, and you have no other reasons for getting box A, then getting box A is an act of sheer stupidity.
22:24:29 <kerlo> Suppose an AI came to believe that from then on, its senses would attempt to deceive it.
22:24:38 <kerlo> The best course of action would be to ignore its senses completely.
22:25:06 <mib_mksvta> The best course of action would be to believe what its senses say to it is reversed.
22:25:54 <kerlo> So that if its senses told it that the sky is not green, it would come to believe that the sky is green?
22:26:09 <kerlo> Saying nothing but falsehoods is not the best way to deceive a person.
22:26:25 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: how about it'd never believe that because its senses aren't sentient
22:26:33 <mib_mksvta> i mean unless they are which they shouldn't be
22:27:07 <kerlo> My senses are sentient.
22:27:34 <mib_mksvta> I disbelieve that your ears, eyes, mouth are sentient.
22:27:42 <mib_mksvta> I disbelieve that your skin is sentient.
22:27:54 <kerlo> Okay, s/senses/sensations/g
22:28:55 <Ilari> If one really wants to deceive a person, expose it to same falsehood from all directions and often (much more often than they hear the truth)...
22:29:27 <mib_mksvta> Yeah, but global falsehood is not deceiving: just flip it.
22:30:05 <kerlo> I'd write an AI, but unfortunately, this would require sheer gibbering stupidity, blank incomprehension of the Singularity, and total uncaring recklessness.
22:30:24 <Ilari> Yeah, but how does one tell which way is correct?
22:30:25 <kerlo> Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to type "I can't".
22:31:00 <kerlo> Don't you just hate it when you go into a trance and quote Eliezer Yudkowsky when trying to press the shift button?
22:31:06 <mib_mksvta> Ilari: if you know it's going to lie to you in that way, ...
22:31:12 <mib_mksvta> kerlo: I think you have an obsession problem.
22:31:34 <mib_mksvta> Also, um, didn't EY advocate writing a seed AI?
22:32:09 <kerlo> He was talking about writing AI with one of our subgoals (e.g. solve the Riemann hypothesis) as its supergoal.
22:32:11 <mib_mksvta> The other way to get a Riemann Hypothesis Catastrophe is to make solving the Riemann Hypothesis a direct supergoal of the AI - perhaps the only supergoal of the AI. This would require sheer gibbering stupidity, blank incomprehension of the Singularity, and total uncaring recklessness.
22:32:13 <Ilari> mib_mksvta: I don't think you can know that (unless you find out)...
22:32:27 <mib_mksvta> Ilari: It was part of kerlo's question.
22:33:48 <mib_mksvta> Hmm... I think I'll stop bothering the people who don't care/dislike the singularity in here. kerlo, others: if you want to continue, I've set up a treehouse in #zot.
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22:47:00 <kerlo> ehird is promoting artificial artificial artificial artificial artificial intelligence intelligence intelligence intelligence.
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23:33:29 <ehird> #zot's quiet. Someone should join.
23:39:03 <Ilari> At least its one (pretty rare) metasyntactic variable...
23:39:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Zotalicious, for one.
23:39:40 <ehird> But it's just a random name for discussion of a variety of topics including AI, cake, #zot, and the topics applicable in #zot.
23:39:42 <ehird> Mostly the first one.
23:45:36 <GregorR> I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW THAT I AM 0% ZOT
23:49:32 <ehird> lament: the pianidio is awesome.
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00:06:43 <ehird> who're you then? :)
00:09:29 <ehird> England. What brings you here?
00:09:57 <radioactivity> i dont really know, i was wondering about irc, i use to use it a lot.. few years ago..
00:10:37 <ehird> :) this channel's about esoteric programming languages. heard of them?
00:11:18 <radioactivity> oum, no, i thought it was about esoteric.. themes.. whats esoteric programming languages?
00:11:42 <ehird> A lot of people coming in here thinking that
00:11:59 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_languages
00:12:11 <ehird> oklopol: esoterica
00:12:21 <ehird> "magick" and all that.
00:12:59 <ehird> i guess our current topic doesn't help
00:13:34 <oklopol> radioactivity: is jeje laughter?
00:13:50 <ehird> spanish people do that :-P
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00:14:37 <oklopol> i was actually just going by kerlo speaking spanish today.
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00:14:51 <ehird> radioactivity: "hahaha" is the typical english laugh, yeah
00:14:53 <oklopol> radioactivity: i use heh, hehe, hah and lol
00:15:04 <oklopol> they all have slightly different connotations
00:15:23 <ehird> heh: you're boring
00:15:27 <oklopol> well okay hehe and heh have slightly different connotations, the rest have entirely different ones.
00:15:27 <ehird> hah: you're stupid
00:16:14 <oklopol> hehe -> heh -> hah for "funnier" -> "wittier" i think.
00:16:39 <oklopol> smileys for stuff i actually lol at
00:17:22 <ehird> yeah I think it's because in spanish j = y kind of sound right
00:17:50 <ehird> i go "HAHAHAHAHAHAhadhajsgdkjaskfhaksjdfhddfglhkfhjk"
00:20:03 <oklopol> afaik spanish "j" is english "h", but not as deep in the mouth
00:20:59 <oklopol> radioactivity: you could just say you don't pronounce it.
00:21:05 <radioactivity> here if we say something like 'voy a hacer pasteles' the word 'hacer' sounds like there is no first letter.
00:21:33 <oklopol> but you don't have to explain, everyone knows spanish
00:22:33 <oklopol> tbh i didn't even understand what you said there
00:22:41 <oklopol> you're gonna make pancakes?
00:25:23 <radioactivity> well i didnt knew this esoteric programming thingie
00:27:24 <radioactivity> jejaj, brainfuck, nothing to do with operation mindfuck, right?
00:27:41 <oklopol> i don't know operation mindfuck
00:27:50 * ehird googles. Discordian thing.
00:29:58 <comex> I'm deciding whether I want to learn haskell
00:31:32 <bsmntbombdood> why would i get 0xffffffffdeadbeef instead of 0xdeadbeef
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00:35:15 <comex> will #haskellers kill me if I ask stupid questions in there :/
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00:40:08 <comex> also, fuck languages that require you to make source files to define things
00:40:17 <comex> e.g. prolog, haskell
00:40:46 <comex> cf: stupid questions[
00:42:48 <comex> oklopol: also, by saying that, you probably sped up my learning of haskell by a large factor
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07:46:34 <ski__> (comex : btw, usually you don't *have*to* make a source file for defining predicates in prolog ..)
07:47:43 <ski__> |: foo(X) :- bar(X).
07:48:40 <ski__> ?- assertz(( bar(Y) :- baz(Z),Y is Z + 25 )).
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08:22:08 <ktne> when is ehird coming here usually?
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10:00:25 <AnMaster> ktne, European afternoon I think
10:00:59 <AnMaster> West Europe that is (he lives in UK)
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10:20:11 <ktne> AnMaster: thanks
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15:18:51 <ktne> ehird: do you happen to know an accessible paper on CPS transformation?
15:19:25 <ehird> Nope... It's always seemed quite simple to me... ktne: Look at the examples on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation-passing_style? The transformation is really quite simple
15:20:03 <ktne> well i just thinking that maybe there is a catch and ad-hoc methods wouldn't work
15:20:12 <ehird> Not as far as I know :-)
15:34:27 <ehird> <lament> if we allow "non-repetitive infinite initial conditions" <lament> i'm pretty sure that makes SMETANA turing-complete as well<lament> it would be a very simple structure, it has a "head" and then a "tail" consisting of identical pieces of code with different numbers (trivially generated by any process)
15:34:34 <ehird> ais523 logreader: thoughts?
15:36:54 <ktne> ehird: is CPS transformation of sequencial code any different?
15:37:06 <ktne> because it looks like all examples are functional
15:37:28 <ehird> (a (lambda (_) b))
15:37:36 <ehird> (because you're discarding the result)
16:11:29 <AnMaster> googled for: canon eos 5d megapixels
16:11:37 <AnMaster> Canon EOS 5D — Megapixels: 12.8Mp
16:11:37 <AnMaster> According to http://www.dcmag.co.uk/Canon_EOS_5D.YcxcOYJoY7WsLA.html
16:12:06 <ehird> screen scraping is hard
16:19:30 <AnMaster> off topic: best case design for PCI slots ever (no screws needed for anything in this case!): http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1116.jpg It's an old dell case (old as in "Designed for Windows 98" sticker)
16:20:14 <ktne> AnMaster: quite neat
16:20:53 <AnMaster> yeah there are more images of it in the same directory in case you want to see how it is opened (like a book)
16:21:00 <AnMaster> http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1110.jpg
16:22:03 <AnMaster> ktne, compared to my desktop which needs like 15 screws to open and is a mess of cables inside... this case is heaven.
16:23:07 <ehird> Not many cables here. :P
16:23:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well true, but as far as I remember macs (apart from mac pro) are kind of hard to get inside and replace parts), apart from ram
16:23:56 <AnMaster> ram tends to be easy to reach on them, oh and airport card on older ones
16:24:04 <ehird> The RAM is in a special slot at the bottom.
16:24:19 <AnMaster> on my old ibook it was under the keyboard
16:24:19 <ehird> You just put it on the side, take out the screws, and the ram slots are there on the bottom
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16:24:40 <AnMaster> just pull some plastic things, flip it back
16:24:50 <ehird> I actually have one more cable than is strictly necessary - I could use wifi instead of ethernet - but that'd be slow.
16:24:56 <ehird> (The only other cable coming out is a power cord.)
16:25:04 <AnMaster> ehird, however, an imac wouldn't allow me to replace the cd drive as easily as this dell
16:25:04 <ehird> (I don't think we've quite got wireless electricity)
16:25:05 <ais523> meh, you should use wireless power too
16:25:11 <ehird> ais523: Beat you to it.
16:25:20 <ehird> AnMaster: True, but I don't need to replace the CD drive. :P
16:25:28 <AnMaster> I just pulled the old drive out (old cd reader) and replaced it with a slightly less old cd burner
16:25:41 <AnMaster> true, colour doesn't match any more
16:26:01 <ehird> Mine's a DVD burner, so there's not really much upgrading I could do to it.
16:26:10 <AnMaster> ais523, btw for reference: http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1116.jpg http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1110.jpg
16:26:11 <ehird> Unless I wanted blu-ray or something. Yech.
16:26:26 <ehird> It looks like a Transformer.
16:26:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well true, my case was way older
16:26:36 <ehird> Optimus Mersenne Prime
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16:26:56 <AnMaster> actually, I think it is "Optiplex" not "Optimus"
16:27:15 <ehird> I hope that was, like, intentional.
16:27:20 <ehird> You do realise what I was referencing?
16:27:33 <ehird> Transformers. Google it.
16:28:02 <AnMaster> but I haven't heard of "Optimus Mersenne Prime", though I know what a Mersenne Prime is
16:28:14 <ehird> Google Optimus Prime.
16:28:17 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 1 of 1 for "Optimus Mersenne Prime". (0.38 seconds)
16:28:24 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Prime
16:33:06 <ehird> you haven't asked him a question
16:33:09 <ehird> what do you expect as a response?
16:33:31 <ais523> well, I could just not respond
16:33:41 <ehird> that was what I was expecting.
16:33:44 <ais523> personally, I think it's simplest to nickping someone in the same line as you ask the question in
16:33:55 <ehird> when I'm imitating
16:34:02 <AnMaster> ais523, http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1116.jpg http://kuonet.org/~anmaster/photos/phoenix/phoenix_1110.jpg <-- what do you think of that case design
16:34:25 <ehird> ah yes, ais523 the foremost expert on case design
16:34:38 <ehird> ais523: read the logs? i asked a question to do with the 2,3 machine, quoting lament
16:34:58 <AnMaster> ehird, um, did I claim he was an expert?
16:35:00 <ais523> case design never was my strong point, but I've sometimes had to do it because the person who was meant to be doing it didn't
16:35:16 <ehird> AnMaster: you seem a bit obsessed with the case s'all
16:35:33 <AnMaster> ehird, anyone would be after looking inside the mess that is my desktop
16:35:46 <ehird> Unlikely, my old desktop is almost certainly worse.
16:35:50 <ehird> It computed more with dust than a CPU.
16:35:58 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure if I have much of an opinion on that
16:36:05 <ais523> it looks like a normal computer case to me...
16:36:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean it is like having to use TECO and then suddenly trying modern kate or whatever
16:36:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I just like that you don't need any screws at all in it
16:36:41 <ais523> AnMaster: Kate isn't even Turing-complete!
16:36:49 <ehird> Editor analogies: the new car analogies.
16:36:50 <ais523> actually, maybe it is, but not as obviously as TECO
16:36:52 <oklopol> we had proving there are infinite mersenne primes as an exercise on our discrete math course
16:36:54 <AnMaster> ais523, well true, but it is easier to use
16:37:26 <ehird> I dunno, I'd prefer TECO to Kate, probably.
16:37:40 <ais523> ehird: have you ever tried Kate?
16:37:44 <AnMaster> ehird, ok what about TECO vs. <your favourite editor>
16:37:49 <ehird> Used it when I used KDE.
16:37:54 <ehird> With TECO I can build a glob of macros to make it bearable (like rms did :P).
16:37:55 <ais523> KDE3 Kate or KDE4 Kate?
16:38:00 <ehird> Whereas Kate is just... limited.
16:38:02 <ehird> It doesn't do much.
16:38:14 <ais523> strange, I rather liked that one
16:38:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't used KDE4 yet so I was comparing with KDE3
16:38:34 <ais523> AnMaster: neither KDE4.0 nor KDE4.1 is finished
16:38:38 <ehird> It just doesn't do much in the way of advanced editing.
16:38:42 <ehird> It's not efficient.
16:38:43 <AnMaster> anyway what about teco vs. <your favourite text editor and/or programming language>
16:38:43 <ais523> but the unfinishedness in .0 and .1 really shows
16:38:47 <ehird> TECO is obscure and horrid, but could be efficient.
16:39:12 <ais523> famously, Emacs was originally written in TECO
16:39:16 <ais523> ehird knows that already
16:39:19 <ehird> ais523: I mentioned that
16:39:21 <ais523> but I'm not sure if everyone here does
16:39:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Haskell, obviously. And for text editor, well, I like TextMate but I use emacs more, since it does Haskell better.
16:39:26 <oklopol> no comment on globally unsolved math as an exercise? you ppl are seriously weird.
16:39:27 <ehird> 16:38 <ehird> With TECO I can build a glob of macros to make it bearable (like rms did :P).
16:39:35 <ehird> oklopol: did you solve it
16:39:55 <ehird> Did you lose marks
16:40:23 <oklopol> well it wasn't actually one of the questions, more like for extra points
16:40:33 <oklopol> i was the only one who didn't get it
16:40:38 <ehird> I'd just make the whole goddamn paper all unsolved shit
16:40:45 <ehird> they're bound to get it eventually
16:40:52 <ehird> and I'll be famous
16:41:02 <oklopol> yeah right. if there's anything at all complex, i'm the only one who solves it
16:41:05 <oklopol> pretty much for all courses
16:41:13 <ehird> oklopol what is 2+2
16:42:03 <oklopol> i like j, it's replacing python as my calculator already
16:42:14 <oklopol> of course, it's extremely annoying as a calculator
16:42:57 <ehird> j is pretty awesome but I have ideaaaaas to make it better
16:43:06 <ehird> in j can you define adverbssss
16:43:59 <ehird> oklopol: why is it annoying as a calculator
16:44:16 <oklopol> i mean math that was invented a million years ago is pretty much optimized. that includes the precedences of +/*/^, they are perfect.
16:44:45 <oklopol> of course the number representation was invented a million years ago, and i fucking hate it
16:44:49 <ehird> oklopol: I guess % for division is annoying
16:45:05 <ehird> you should be able to use the unicode char
16:45:34 <oklopol> that's simple substitution, the precedence thing somehow feels like i'm structuring the whole calculation wrong (probably because it's more verbose)
16:45:55 <ehird> learn j then you'll know :P
16:46:09 <AnMaster> oh right.... array programming languages tend to run out symbols pretty quickly
16:46:18 <ehird> no, it's not running out
16:46:21 <oklopol> AnMaster: / and \ are fold and umm what's it called
16:46:22 <ehird> it's giving priority to some things
16:46:26 <ehird> also, it doesn't actually use many symbols
16:46:45 <ehird> you just spout out meaningless unfunniness like something that spouts out a lot, don't you.
16:46:50 <AnMaster> and iirc php? (or they wouldn't have used \ for namespace)
16:47:03 <ehird> no, php devs just can't write a parser.
16:47:14 <ehird> oklopol: you should be able to do this:
16:47:46 <AnMaster> ehird, but if they can't handle . or :: for namespace they can't handle the difference between = and == either, yet they have = == and ===
16:47:55 <AnMaster> so yeah "can't write a parser" I guess is correct
16:48:51 <AnMaster> set my variable to one divided by five
16:48:53 <ehird> that / is actually a division slash.
16:48:54 <oklopol> actually i find the division stuff not so nice in math, often i actually try to keep my numbers integral just so i don't have to start using twice the height.
16:48:58 <AnMaster> wait that would be applescript...
16:49:29 <oklopol> ehird: sorry, i cannot read that.
16:49:31 <AnMaster> also no one that has seen applescript should be able to like apple...
16:49:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, charset and/or font fail
16:49:46 <ehird> applescript's semantics are useful. the syntax is stupid, but who the fuck cares.
16:49:56 <ehird> oklopol: it's superscript 1, division slash, subscript 0
16:50:24 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? no "combining" char+
16:50:38 <ehird> unfortunately, none of those symbols are valdi j
16:50:42 <ehird> so you can't assign them
16:51:04 <FireFly> I wonder why there's no esolang with support for such signs
16:51:10 <ehird> FireFly: unikitten
16:51:42 <oklopol> unikitten sounds so cute i wanna hug it.
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16:51:53 <ehird> it's like el cuto.
16:52:18 <FireFly> it must support ÷ and ×, right?
16:52:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I think kitten == cute is silly. I mean they grow up cats. Is an old tomcat "cute"?
16:52:41 <ehird> FireFly: sure, but also the division slash
16:52:48 <ehird> but only if you use super/subscripts
16:52:57 <AnMaster> so I just replace every mention of "kitten" in a "cute" context on irc with "garfield"
16:53:04 <ehird> AnMaster: butterflies aren't pretty because they used to be caterpillars
16:53:12 <ehird> garfield isn't a kitten
16:53:15 <ehird> he's a fucking cartoon cat
16:53:18 <AnMaster> ehird, also kittens aren't cute IMO
16:53:19 <ehird> kitten != cat, cartoon != real
16:53:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I know, but why make sense?
16:53:35 <ehird> so just stop being annoying and saying GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD GARFIELD all the time
16:53:40 <ehird> it's really irritating
16:54:10 <oklopol> women aren't cute cuz some day they die anyway and worms eat their face
16:54:28 <AnMaster> ehird, also kittens -> allergy medicine
16:54:50 <ehird> yeah well just because you can't appreciate kittens doesn't mean you have to ruin it in a hissy fit for us
16:55:08 <oklopol> yeah us kitten lovers are very sensitive about our love fo kittens
16:55:20 <AnMaster> ehird, just because you are so sensitive means you have to complain everytime someone disagrees with you
16:55:42 <ehird> err, saying garfield and whining whenever someone says kitten is annoying. that's not the same as saying "i don't find kittens cute", once.
16:56:01 <ehird> please learn the difference between stating your opinion and whining about your opinion constantly whenever it comes up.
16:56:04 <ehird> one is not annoying, the other is
16:56:25 <AnMaster> ehird, last time I believe was before FireFly joined for example
16:56:35 <AnMaster> so it is about informing any new people
16:56:43 <AnMaster> some collateral damage may be involved
16:56:46 <ehird> i'm really amused you think they care.
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16:57:10 <AnMaster> ehird, of course. I know I'm the center of the universe.~
16:59:34 <MigoMipo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVtxEA7AEHg
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17:00:04 <ehird> oklopol: i still haven't figured out how to do that thing in j :<
17:02:02 <oklopol> err actually i do not remember
17:02:23 <ehird> "here is a list, make all unique length-2 lists with picks from this list, then map them all as the left argument to this op"
17:02:35 <ehird> the solution you gave was like 20 characters longer than the APL to do that :<
17:06:47 <AnMaster> hm is there anything array programming languages are bad at?
17:08:30 <AnMaster> yes of course it is possible, as long as you have stdin/stdout
17:09:16 <AnMaster> ehird, but would it be something it was "good" at, or just "not bad" at?
17:09:28 <AnMaster> actually it would need a main loop anywya
17:09:35 <ehird> you'd map over the input lines
17:09:49 <ehird> you never, ever _need_ to loop in array programming languages
17:10:01 <ehird> It'd be fine, anyway. Not much chance to excersize its paradigm, but IRC bots are inherently uninteresting anyway.
17:10:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what about text processing? In sed-style
17:11:09 <ehird> what are you talking about
17:12:18 <AnMaster> I mean how easy would it be to write something like: /^foo: /s/abc([0-9][0-9]*)/def\1ghj/;/quux/d
17:12:30 <ehird> umm, that's highly irrelevant to the programming environment
17:12:37 <ehird> that's just trivial boring library stuff that nobody cares about
17:12:42 <AnMaster> ehird, but I mean a program that performed the same task
17:12:52 <ehird> it's nothing to do with the paradigm
17:12:54 <ehird> trivial boring library stuff that nobody cares about
17:13:20 <AnMaster> ehird, actually not sure how you mean? APL has a "sed" library?
17:14:13 <AnMaster> oh well, forget it then, if you aren't going to make any sense.
17:14:15 <ehird> oklopol: J lies :<
17:14:18 <oklopol> i think it's somewhat relevant :| slicin n dicin.
17:14:55 <oklopol> ehird: both are perfectly reasonable
17:15:05 <ehird> oklopol: not together
17:15:06 <ehird> that's not consistent
17:15:24 <ehird> x*(y/x)=y is a pretty good law :P
17:15:44 <ehird> clearly n*_ should look at the last division you did
17:15:47 <ehird> to see what it should be
17:16:26 <ehird> i love sql quoting
17:17:02 <ehird> hmm i wonder how to get permutations in j
17:17:40 <oklopol> 1 2 3 (([,]) (0: { [) 3)"0/ 4 5 6 <<< why no give 3 3 $ 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 :|
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17:41:18 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alexander_horned_sphere.png <<< this thing here, it's perfection
17:43:52 <ehird> dude is that recursive
17:45:43 <ehird> oklopol: more perfect: http://www.ultrafractal.com/showcase/jos/alexanders-horn.html
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18:01:21 * ehird considers writing logic-checker-thingy
18:01:40 <ktne> logic checker?
18:02:03 <ktne> you mean something like a proof validator?
18:02:40 <ktne> well, you need to specify the initial state of a proof
18:02:43 <ktne> and all valid transitions
18:02:49 <ktne> and a finishing condition
18:02:56 <ktne> and then you go through the list of transitions
18:03:02 <ktne> checking to see if each one of them is valid
18:03:11 <ktne> until you end the proof
18:03:34 <ktne> well i was just doing a bit of loud brainstorming here :)
18:04:10 <ehird> my main aim is to be sort of both a blend of prolog and something to do things like check soundness of logic, e.g. to detect logical fallacies
18:04:34 <ktne> wouldn't be prolog usable for that?
18:05:42 <ehird> I'm just thinking of things like:
18:05:42 <ehird> ? ((P => Q) ^ Q) => P
18:05:55 <ktne> well you need some sort of parametrization too
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18:50:00 <oerjan> <ehird> But it's just a random name for discussion of a variety of topics including AI, cake, #zot, and the topics applicable in #zot.
18:50:15 <oerjan> i assume the second topic is not entirely accurate.
18:50:27 <ehird> Perhaps it was a lie.
18:50:46 <lament> you lie once, you'll never be trusted again.
18:51:08 <oerjan> lament: that's an interesting lie
18:53:00 <oerjan> <radioactivity> oum, no, i thought it was about esoteric.. themes.. whats esoteric programming languages?
18:53:18 <oerjan> since the channel is rarely on topic, this would not be that off topic
18:54:04 <ais523> so, did radioactivity become an esoprogrammer?
18:54:56 <oerjan> <oklopol> radioactivity: is jeje laughter?
18:55:11 <oerjan> and here i thought for a moment it was a phonetic spelling of yeah, yeah
18:55:35 <oerjan> of course in spanish it _would_ be a phonetic spelling of heh, heh
18:57:53 <oerjan> <ehird> heh: you're boring
18:57:59 <oerjan> that's funnier out of context
19:02:31 <oerjan> <comex> will #haskellers kill me if I ask stupid questions in there :/
19:03:07 <oerjan> as i recall, no, in fact they will ban anyone who mocks you instead. they have a _strict_ newbie-friendly policy.
19:03:22 <ais523> what if newbies mock each other?
19:03:26 <oerjan> of course it may have changed, but i doubt it.
19:03:35 <oerjan> well trolls are banned too
19:03:39 <lament> it's a ridiculously newbie-friendly channel-
19:03:46 <lament> except for when you ask a question and nobody answers
19:03:52 <lament> because they're all stupid
19:04:17 <oerjan> lament: this the same #haskell i used to frequent?
19:04:41 <lament> oerjan: you don't go there anymore?
19:04:49 <oerjan> otoh i mostly answered questions rather than asking them
19:05:09 <oklopol> no that was not the reason, so i'm still confident
19:06:07 <oerjan> i don't have the energy for that much abstract thinking any more
19:07:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
19:08:02 <lament> oerjan: so what do you do in your spare time?
19:10:00 <oerjan> webcomics, reddit, some news sources...
19:10:46 <lament> oerjan: you're boring, just like i am :(
19:11:00 <oklopol> hard to say, haven't tried.
19:11:02 <lament> reddit is horrible though
19:11:17 <psygnisfive> would you consider wearing a skirt, oklopol?
19:11:18 <oklopol> lament: but you play jazz, that's kinda cool!
19:11:30 <lament> it was nice when it was mostly news about haskell
19:11:30 <oerjan> lament: not if you love pun threads :D
19:11:45 <lament> and i suppose i was happy when banana scheme was on it
19:11:57 <lament> but these days it's almost slashdot
19:11:58 <oklopol> lament: please be insulted.
19:12:15 <oerjan> i think haskell has its own subreddit now
19:12:21 <lament> oklopol: i do play jazz, if you can call that jazz, if you can call that play.
19:12:21 <ehird> hacker news is shit
19:12:27 <lament> psygnisfive: never heard of it
19:12:27 <ehird> paul graham circlejerk 24/7
19:12:51 <ehird> lament: reddit.com/r/haskell
19:12:56 <oklopol> lament: well right, i meant for a living, but i guess when it comes to not being boring that matters not.
19:13:17 <lament> ehird: the haskell reddit is just a clone of planet haskell, which i read
19:13:34 <lament> psygnisfive: is news.ycombinator.com any good?
19:13:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: next you will learn words of >2 letters.
19:13:40 <lament> i'm wary of pg-related stuff
19:13:54 <psygnisfive> i mean, there is a disproportionate amount of pg whoring
19:13:56 <lament> just looking at the headers
19:14:00 <ehird> it's ugly, slow to load, and it's pretty much reddit, except everyone circlejerks instead of flaming
19:14:03 <lament> "How did we geeks become experts on macroeconomics"?
19:14:14 <lament> "Yahoo Should Buy Microsoft"
19:14:20 <lament> "Careers and Marriage"
19:14:25 <ehird> GOOD PROGRAMMERS AREN'T LAZY
19:14:27 <psygnisfive> ehird, i find that reddit contains a lot of non-techy stuff
19:14:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: /r/programming
19:14:37 <ehird> lament: how to become a better programmer
19:14:53 <lament> "New Puzzle Challenges Math Skills"
19:15:07 <ehird> You've got 6 minutes, right?
19:15:09 <ehird> Use a bigger font size.
19:15:10 <ehird> This is ridiculously easy -- but it works.
19:15:12 <ehird> Go to your favourite IDE, and crank the font-size up. I switched from 10pt to 14 pt. The difference is that a lot less code fits on the screen at once.
19:15:16 <ehird> The effect is: you're forced to write shorter methods. And that's a Good Thing.
19:15:17 <ehird> (Scott Hanselman recommends that one)
19:15:19 <lament> "Recruiting Drops At Business Schools"
19:15:24 <ehird> Make hard-coded strings look ugly.
19:15:26 <ehird> I learnt this from Joe Cooney.
19:15:28 <ehird> Go to your favourite IDE, and set it so that literal strings stand right out -- for example a yellow background with a red font. Make 'em ugly. Damn ugly. This will encourage you to perform less hard coding, and to notice when you are embedding strings in your text.
19:15:31 <lament> "Why aren't developers interested in Ada?"
19:15:32 <ehird> .........................
19:15:50 <lament> "Micropayments, Reimagined"
19:15:53 <lament> i don't want to read this :(
19:17:39 * oerjan directs his virus scanner to psygnisfive
19:18:21 <oklopol> bigger font size? yeah sure the gain from not *accidentally* shorter methods outweighs not seeing as great a proportion of your code.
19:18:23 <lament> you're using a mac? that's gay
19:18:43 <oerjan> oklopol: you accidentally all your methods?
19:18:43 <ehird> lament: that's right, gaybag.
19:18:53 <ais523> I need antivirus despite using Linux, the terms of service of the wireless here says so
19:18:54 <ehird> lament is also using a mac, psygnisfive.
19:18:56 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, i use small fonts.
19:19:10 <ais523> not that it ever finds anything
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19:19:14 <lament> gay people aren't allowed to run channels
19:19:20 <lament> also it's not me, it's calamari
19:19:54 <lament> also starting today, i'm using a mac at work! wooo!
19:20:07 <psygnisfive> a friend just changed jobs and is not longer using a mac at work. :(
19:20:11 <oerjan> calamari with his tentacles, now that is perverse
19:21:06 <lament> i decided i probably want to code in haskell for a living
19:22:07 <oerjan> <ehird> <lament> if we allow "non-repetitive infinite initial conditions" <lament> i'm pretty sure that makes SMETANA turing-complete as well<lament> it would be a very simple structure, it has a "head" and then a "tail" consisting of identical pieces of code with different numbers (trivially generated by any process)
19:22:37 <ehird> yeah lament was saying that if 2,3=tc smetana=tc
19:22:40 <oerjan> i already described such a setup on the old esoteric mailing list
19:23:26 <lament> somehow people are fine with infinite initial setup for automatons, but not for programs
19:24:12 <oerjan> the thing is you need a program to describe the infinite setup...
19:24:40 <lament> oerjan: same with automata
19:25:06 <lament> even "infitely big empty field" is an infinite setup
19:26:08 <oerjan> but programs _started_ as the idea of a finite algorithm description
19:26:39 <lament> and you can't really have a finite automaton setup
19:26:45 <lament> since it's not defined what happens at the edges
19:27:11 <oklopol> you people think you're so tough.
19:27:33 <oerjan> actually i'm kind of squishy, mostly
19:28:45 <oerjan> <ktne> ehird: is CPS transformation of sequencial code any different?
19:29:25 <oerjan> you should take a look at raph levien's IO language (_not_ the OO one)
19:29:41 <ehird> it's not very interesting :P
19:31:05 <oerjan> it shows how to make a syntax that _looks_ sequential, but is really CPS
19:31:37 <ehird> the best way is to CPS-transform regular code
19:32:48 <oerjan> ehird: i think we'll have to suspend your esoteric license now
19:33:12 <ehird> ktne isn't trying to make an esolang, which he's said several times. I don't know why he asks here, but there you go.
19:33:27 <lament> i thought sequential code was already CPS
19:33:40 <ehird> he's doing sequential & functional
19:34:17 <ehird> non-pure functional
19:34:35 <lament> monads don't have to be pure
19:34:50 <MizardX> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concon :)
19:35:08 <ehird> lament: he's basically making something like scheme but more imperativer
19:35:38 <ehird> lament: he's also trying to get it as fast as C.
19:40:18 <ehird> a guy coded a program.
19:40:29 <ehird> http://tlrobinson.net/blog/2009/02/07/game-of-life-generator/
19:41:00 <ehird> t'was on /r/programming
19:41:54 <lament> haha, someone's comment
19:41:56 <lament> "just in time for Valentine's day, thanks :)"
19:42:16 <psygnisfive> thats pretty impressive that you can code an abstraction for this
19:42:34 <lament> it looks remarkably like a physical object too
19:42:38 <ehird> Life is TC and it's just a dot matrix printer :P
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19:42:52 <ehird> i mean, it's just gliders.
19:42:59 <ehird> you just send out a shitload of gliders in a pattern
19:43:02 <ehird> that is not particularly difficult
19:43:04 <psygnisfive> the complexity of designing this is more the impressive part
19:43:07 <oerjan> someone make a scanner :D
19:43:26 <psygnisfive> also, these gliders seem to be moving horizontally not diagonally
19:43:26 <lament> yes we'll make the scanner right after we make the impenetrable wall
19:43:26 <ehird> that WOULD be impressive
19:43:38 <ehird> stuff crashes into it
19:43:40 <ehird> and it prints it out
19:44:05 <lament> spaceships, not gliders
19:44:33 <lament> i assume they're http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Game_of_life_animated_LWSS.gif
19:45:05 <psygnisfive> and the SCALE of the whole thing is ridiculous
19:45:12 <psygnisfive> i mean, look at the size of the landscape, its enormous!
19:45:21 <lament> psygnisfive: you've seen the turing machine, right?
19:45:32 <ehird> once you see that and the unit cell
19:45:53 <ehird> psygnisfive: it's a game of life emulator in gol
19:46:02 <ehird> http://www.radicaleye.com/lifepage/patterns/unitcell/ucdesc.html
19:46:38 <ehird> eigenratio is 5760
19:46:57 <lament> game of life is at once really pretty and really horrendous
19:47:17 <psygnisfive> i dont follow what a unit cell is by that definition x.x
19:47:27 <lament> psygnisfive: it's a cell in the game of life, duh
19:47:43 <lament> you put a bunch of them in a grid and you got the game of life
19:47:53 <ehird> psygnisfive: basically
19:47:58 <ehird> it acts as one cell
19:48:04 <ehird> you could arrange multiple unit cells into a glider
19:48:08 <ehird> and they would turn off and on etc
19:48:14 <ehird> it's a game of life simulator _in_ game of lif
19:48:17 <ehird> simulates one cell
19:48:35 <psygnisfive> its a Life construct that simulates an individual cell of Life
19:48:43 <Slereah2> How can it simulate only one cell?
19:48:54 <ehird> Slereah2: you put them next to each other
19:48:58 <ehird> to simulate multiple cells
19:49:14 <Slereah2> But... How are the edge cells determined?
19:49:20 <Slereah2> Do they assume the border is empty?
19:49:32 <ehird> it depends what grid you run it on
19:49:34 <ehird> if infinite, infinite
19:49:39 <ehird> if limited and wrapping ,limited and wrapping
19:50:05 <lament> Slereah2: edge behaviour is undefined in game of life
19:50:12 <psygnisfive> yeah the edgeness is a property of the universe you run life in, not the game of life itself
19:50:13 <lament> so you need either an infinite or a wrapping setup
19:50:15 <Slereah2> I mean, how do they know that the next cell is full or not?
19:50:22 <Slereah2> Do they send little spaceships if fullN
19:50:25 <lament> Slereah2: if it's full, a glider arrives from it
19:50:38 <Slereah2> So it's assumed empty at the edge, i guess
19:51:11 <Slereah2> lament : Only if you use a fancy infinite computer
19:51:18 <Slereah2> But we work for a living you know!
19:51:25 <lament> Slereah2: the behaviour of a cell at the edge of a game of life field is undefined.
19:51:40 <lament> (as far as i understand the rules)
19:51:41 <Slereah2> Yes, but that interpreter is only one cell
19:51:46 <lament> no, that's only one cell
19:51:56 <lament> it's not an interpreter
19:51:59 <Slereah2> So it's not the game of life itself, unless you stack an infinity of it
19:52:13 <lament> as with any other automaton, you need infinite initial setup
19:52:21 <ehird> generally, you have finite on cells
19:52:51 <ehird> Slereah2: GoL host space = unit cell space
19:53:00 <ehird> i.e., you can simulate it just putting unit cells on an empty field
19:53:50 <Slereah2> Idea : MAKE A UNIT CELL MADE OF UNIT CELL
19:54:00 <lament> trivial. A lot of copy-pasting.
19:54:21 <Slereah2> How do you decide the initial state of the cell?
19:54:41 <lament> i think it depends on whether there's a glider between the long boats?
19:54:54 <Slereah2> Totally like normal GOL, psygnisfive
19:55:14 <psygnisfive> slereah, obviously theres something that denotes unitcell state
19:55:32 <psygnisfive> you decide initial state by just setting that something just like you do with normal GoL
19:55:46 <psygnisfive> "deciding" is the same. its a decision. that you the person makes.
19:55:58 <oerjan> Slereah2: Idea : MAKE AN INFINITE RECURSION OF UNIT CELLS
19:56:03 <oerjan> (also trivial, really)
19:56:22 <Slereah2> psygnisfive : AND I WAS ASKING WHAT THAT SOMETHING IS, DQN DQN
19:56:54 <ehird> what would be nice is an O(grid size) algorithm for going an arbitrary amount of steps forward in gol
19:57:52 <psygnisfive> i think such a thing has been proven to be mathematically impossible. or atleast a mathematical abstraction of the behavior of CAs is impossible to some degree
19:57:56 <oerjan> wait, in that unit cell setup do you need to use unit cells to simulate off cells too, or can you just put empty space there?
19:57:58 <psygnisfive> and i think that's what would be necessary
19:58:05 <ehird> is the idea, I think
19:58:18 <psygnisfive> i think you'd need unit cells for off cells
19:58:19 <oerjan> if it sends gliders it might be a bit hard
19:58:27 <psygnisfive> because if you didnt have unit cells there too, they couldnt turn on
19:58:37 <ehird> i think it copies itself
19:58:43 <oerjan> well you _can_ build things with gliders
19:59:59 <lament> i think you could simulate a finite field with a finite field of unit cells
20:00:22 <lament> any gliders at the edges would just fly off to infinity
20:03:05 <oerjan> hm in http://www.radicaleye.com/lifepage/patterns/unitcell/ucdesc.html it seems that the cell has two states, so not empty space
20:03:25 <ehird> where's the two states
20:04:01 <oerjan> i mean from the event list at the end
20:04:31 <FireFly> Someone should make a GoLfile -> GoLfile in Unitcells converter
20:06:11 -!- olsner has joined.
20:06:16 <FireFly> Yep, but it'd be easier than copy-pasting the patterns
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20:07:24 <ehird> I JUST MADE A SIERPINSKI TRIANGLE IN LIFE
20:07:33 <ehird> Without intending to!!
20:07:57 <lament> pics or it didn't happen
20:07:59 <ehird> I just drew a really long line and wow.
20:08:00 * oerjan for a moment thought ehird was still being sarcastic
20:08:27 <ehird> why would I be sarcastic
20:08:30 <ehird> do I look like a foo
20:08:38 <oerjan> it's sort of your natural state :D
20:08:47 <FireFly> With some ruleset, it's what one single cell being on generates.. It comes with Golly
20:08:56 <ehird> http://xs136.xs.to/xs136/09071/picture_1324.png
20:08:57 <ehird> http://xs136.xs.to/xs136/09071/picture_1324.png
20:09:05 <ehird> I just drew a really long line and it turned into tha
20:09:35 <psygnisfive> what i mean by that is its not a sierpinski triangle.
20:09:36 <ehird> who cares, it came spontaneously from one really long line
20:09:40 <ehird> psygnisfive: yeah well
20:10:13 <psygnisfive> is that being generated by movement upwards?
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20:10:59 <ehird> ah, you know when you draw a long line in life
20:10:59 <psygnisfive> i mean, what did the time evolution look like
20:11:15 <lament> it really sounds like you're on acid, you realize
20:11:28 <ehird> well, yeah, wavering
20:12:13 <ehird> psygnisfive: http://xs536.xs.to/xs536/09071/picture_2491.png not all of it, but most of it
20:12:22 <ehird> http://xs536.xs.to/xs536/09071/picture_3360.png in progress
20:12:41 <oerjan> actually it _cannot_ have been a single long line because it's not symmetric enough
20:12:58 <ehird> psygnisfive: I have the .rle
20:13:10 <ehird> it's a game of life file
20:13:13 <ehird> use with golly or w/e
20:13:25 <psygnisfive> ah well. ill just run it in net logo, no worries
20:13:48 <ehird> except that isn;t the whole thing
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20:14:04 <ehird> whee, i reproduced it
20:14:11 <ehird> it seems you just have to make an imprecise line quite long
20:14:17 <ehird> and it collapses into that
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20:14:34 <ehird> just made a huge line
20:14:37 <ehird> and it makes a huge pattern
20:14:43 <ehird> I swear it's sierpinski
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20:14:57 <ehird> it's fractal, at least, no question
20:15:56 <ehird> psygnisfive: it even builds it in a fractal way
20:16:05 <ehird> one huge line decays to lots of separate huge lines
20:16:12 <ehird> which keep reducing into more, leaving behind that pattern as a trail
20:17:13 <ehird> see the links above
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20:18:28 <ehird> the other half of the line becomes a mirror of the below
20:18:34 <ehird> the top one is chaotic
20:21:22 <ehird> psygnisfive: go to one pixel per square
20:21:26 <ehird> then click and drag down
20:21:28 <ehird> for about 15 seconds
20:21:45 <ehird> yeah, like 2,000 to 5,000 squares
20:22:01 <FireFly> What ruleset? Regular GoL?
20:22:25 <ehird> psygnisfive: just did it on a perfectly straight line 100 squares long
20:22:47 <lament> ehird: you have discovered a new field of mathematics! The Fields medal will surely be yours.
20:23:00 <ehird> lament: stfu, this is just fun.
20:23:34 <ehird> just make a long straight line and bam
20:23:56 <ehird> it's because the "noise" is actually long straight lines
20:24:07 <ehird> they duplicate themselves, then get less tall
20:24:15 <ehird> so it replicates doing that, until they destroy themselves by being 0 tall
20:25:30 <ehird> psygnisfive: so it IS a sierpinski triangle, you admit :P
20:25:46 <lament> that's nothing special! any fool could have done that!
20:27:27 <oerjan> there are people who don't manage to use computers, after all.
20:27:55 <ehird> how did you get a sierpinski.
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20:28:17 <ehird> produce the same shape as mine :P
20:28:42 <ehird> neither are the perfectly straight lines
20:29:23 <psygnisfive> but i dont get the same randomness you get
20:29:57 <lament> if you have a double ended growth, consult a doctor asap
20:30:19 <ehird> psygnisfive: screenshot
20:39:43 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net//transfers/Golly1.png
20:39:44 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net//transfers/Golly2.png
20:40:30 <ehird> that totally does not happen to a straight line
20:40:43 <ehird> I know because I've tested
20:42:33 <psygnisfive> http://wellnowwhat.net//transfers/Sierpinski.rle
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20:43:06 <psygnisfive> stupid mac os with its inconsistent extension usage
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20:44:40 <oerjan> psygnisfive: you have a // too much
20:47:33 <psygnisfive> actually, he does the whole babyfur thing which is weird but whatever
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20:49:51 <impomatic> Do I need to figure out what currying is if I'm writing an Unlambda interpreter?
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20:50:03 <ais523> just to write an Unlambda program
20:50:08 <psygnisfive> impomatic: but why not learn what it is anyway?
20:50:15 <ais523> you may find s and k confusing to implement if you don't know what it is, though
20:50:24 <ais523> for instance, what is `si?
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20:50:48 <ehird> psygnisfive: you're right
20:50:52 <ehird> it produces a chaotic sierpinski with debris
20:51:09 <ehird> with a 1 million population it takes about 100 million iterations :D
20:51:11 <ehird> psygnisfive: just make it smaller
20:51:25 <ski__> the lower half of the picture doesn't look exactly like sierpinski, but related
20:51:33 <ehird> ski__: psygnisfive found a real sirpinski
20:51:37 <impomatic> I've just been through my bookshelf and pulled off all the books with a section on combinatorial calculus. Now I'm going to read through them
20:51:41 <ehird> psygnisfive: i love how it turns into a still life, yours
20:51:48 <oerjan> hm that's an actual surname :)
20:51:48 <ski__> ehird : "found" meaning ?
20:51:49 <ehird> so carefully placed little life cells
20:52:23 <oerjan> well at least psygnisfive isn't. i hope.
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20:52:32 <ski__> (psygnisfive : link ?)
20:52:56 <psygnisfive> theres some tombstone somewhere with a mr and ms lulz
20:53:23 <psygnisfive> obviously its close to schulz than lulls but.
20:53:24 * ski__ remembers writing sierpinski programs on his Casio ..
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20:54:24 <ski__> one nice way is starting with a pixel square with length a power of two
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20:54:39 <ski__> clear all the pixels
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20:54:45 <ski__> initialize the leftmost uppermost pixel to on
20:55:37 <ski__> then, for each subsequent line, turn on a pixel if and only if exactly one of the pixel just above, and the pixel left to the one just above is turned on
20:56:38 <ski__> (treating out-of-bounds access to the left of the first column as unset .. or initialize the first column, if preferred)
20:57:17 <psygnisfive> ehird, i still want to know where yours comes from
20:57:45 <ais523> ski__: a cellular automaton
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20:58:28 <ski__> yes .. aka modulo 2
20:58:38 <ski__> (possibly you could define this as an infinite stream of infinite streams, too)
20:58:50 <oerjan> also n over k modulo 2
20:58:57 <ski__> (one can try with modulo 3, et.c. too)
20:59:16 <oerjan> it's the modulo result of pascal's triangle
20:59:50 <oerjan> although i guess calculating n over k first is not efficient if you are going to calculate the whole square anyhow
21:00:18 <ski__> yes, it's better to do modular arithmetic the whole way
21:01:36 <ski__> i tried once with random-walks with affine transforms, too .. but for some reason i got a strange system of line fragments instead of sierpinski, though
21:02:04 <ski__> (or that might have been an attempt to generate van Kochs curve, now that i think of it)
21:02:36 <AnMaster_> what the hell happened a few minutes ago?
21:03:15 <oerjan> he was swedish, apparently
21:04:02 <ski__> that may be .. his first name was `Helge' in any case
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21:04:40 * ski__ kommer inte ihg att han lst att von Koch skulle vara svensk, dock
21:05:07 -!- impomatic has quit ("http://tr.im/xep :-)").
21:05:21 <ski__> ok. then it must be true
21:05:43 <oerjan> it actually lists some of his ancestors
21:06:00 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helge_von_Koch
21:06:28 * ski__ thinks `von Koch' sounds deutsch, though (or Niederlands, if it was `van')
21:07:06 <oerjan> but nobles always have pretentious names
21:08:00 <ski__> (.. hm, does `Koch' mean `cook' ?)
21:08:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_(surname)
21:09:33 * ski__ feels too tired to use a browser himself, atm ..
21:09:52 <ski__> (been reading too much blogs today)
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22:46:24 <oerjan> but are they really dark, or just smudged?
22:49:36 <oerjan> i see you are not beating around the bush
22:49:54 * oerjan stole that from the forums, actually
22:50:48 <AnMaster> "I wondered if it could be a triffid?" <-- from forum. Wth is a "triffid"?
22:51:32 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Triffids
22:52:14 <ais523> AnMaster: walking plant in a famous fictional novel
22:53:00 <oerjan> it was playing as a series on the radio when my dad built his new house in the 80's. since then i think of them every time i smell sawdust...
22:53:08 <lament> the novel isn't fictional
22:53:16 <ais523> well, it describes fictional events
22:53:25 <ais523> the novel itself exists, ofc
22:54:30 <AnMaster> I see I have watched way too much Star Trek... I thought of "tribbles" first...
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23:01:31 <AnMaster> fun "Wait a second, those bubbles are green? They're the same color as the rest of the site, cyan-ish."
23:01:39 <GregorR> After carrying 108lbs of Moxie 800ft, nothing is more refreshing than a crisp, delicious Moxie :P
23:01:47 <AnMaster> either broken colour, or someone just finding out he/she is colour blind
23:02:39 <oerjan> GregorR: i guess some kinds of work are _nearly_ their own reward
23:03:00 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, 108lbs? what is that in metric units?
23:03:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: i wondered about that comment too...
23:03:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, sqrt(-garfied) was rather boring today
23:03:58 <AnMaster> oh and I need to find an abbreviation for it
23:05:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you are the unicode expert of the channel!
23:05:40 <ehird> My only offer is a Unicode snowman. ☃
23:06:02 <oerjan> if so i have no idea how i would write it on irc
23:06:31 <oerjan> you and your funny question marks
23:06:42 <kerlo> That's not a Unicode snowman, that's fuzz followed by inverse-colored XC.
23:06:53 <kerlo> I guess my IRC client is really, really unhappy.
23:07:09 <AnMaster> both you and oerjan need to fix your clients
23:07:36 <oerjan> i just go to the logs when i want to see unicode
23:07:38 <kerlo> Well, this is irssi via screen via PuTTY.
23:07:51 <oerjan> kerlo: same here, except for the screen
23:07:58 <ehird> http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/
23:08:04 <ehird> In glorious 4000% font size.
23:08:09 <kerlo> It works for many Unicode things, but not all.
23:08:33 <ehird> I wish http://idunnolol.com/ was free so I could put a huge ¯\(°_o)/¯ on it
23:09:04 <AnMaster> who on earth registers a domain like http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/ just for that...l
23:09:20 <ehird> domains are like $5/year
23:09:34 <ehird> setting up unicodesnowmanforyou.com probably took like 15 minutes, total
23:09:37 <ehird> plus it's amusing.
23:09:57 <ehird> i wonder what commitee meeting ended up with that being in unicode
23:10:00 <AnMaster> but I have seen way more expensive domains too
23:10:01 <ehird> probably was in some older charset
23:10:16 <ehird> i bet font makers have fun
23:10:22 <AnMaster> and it was probably snowing outside?
23:10:23 <ehird> after drawing 5 bajillion boring characters
23:10:40 <ehird> I bet it has its own area
23:10:50 <ehird> category should be SNOWMEN.
23:11:00 <kerlo> AnMaster: aao, ring umlaut umlaut.
23:11:10 <kerlo> If that sounds about right, it displayed correctly.
23:11:15 <ehird> wow, http://☃.com/ is actually squatted
23:11:18 <ehird> that's (snowman).com
23:11:48 <ehird> I should get ☃.org
23:11:58 <ehird> "Email elliott at snowman dot org"
23:12:09 <ehird> is unicodesnowmanforyou.com
23:12:12 <AnMaster> ehird, except do you get snowman.org too?
23:12:34 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you get aao variants for åäö for *.se
23:12:41 <ehird> ooh, ooh, maybe I'll buy (unicode symbol for _|_).com
23:12:44 <ehird> it will load forever
23:12:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the unicode symbol for_|_?
23:12:58 <ehird> (_|_ = bottom = "undefined" = infinite loop in functional language terminology)
23:13:13 <ehird> AnMaster: well, it's a horizontal line with a vertical line sticking from the middle
23:13:19 <AnMaster> ehird, it looks like a rude sign?
23:13:24 <AnMaster> I doubt that exists in unicode
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23:13:26 <ehird> it looks like a penis and an upside down T.
23:13:39 <AnMaster> ehird, it looks like a rude sign with a finger
23:16:08 <AnMaster> what a pitty klingon got rejected
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23:52:06 <ehird> lol "Announcement: AI Has Been Solved " http://www.advogato.org/article/832.html http://mind.sourceforge.net/mind4th.html
23:52:33 <pikhq> What, for Unicode? That was because of a lack of works in it.
23:54:25 <pikhq> Will probably be reconsidered, what with such works as /ghIlghameS/ and /The Tragedy of Khamelet, Son of the Emperor of Qo'nos/.
23:54:34 <ehird> "http://mind.sourceforge.net/mind4th.html achieved True AI functionality on 22 January 2008. "
23:56:49 <oerjan> hm the haskell underload interpreter in http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7vypk/implementation_of_underload_an_esoteric/ is broken, doesn't handle nested parentheses
23:57:16 * oerjan mentions in case someone who actually has a reddit account wants to point it out
23:57:27 <ehird> most people who try and do esolangs are idiots
23:57:40 <oerjan> oh but it is close otherwise
23:57:51 <ehird> underload is trivial
00:03:13 <kerlo> AI has been solved?
00:03:18 <kerlo> Hope it's Friendly.
00:03:49 <ehird> No, it's just some kook. :P
00:04:23 <kerlo> Oh, it's been "solved in theory". I wonder what that means.
00:04:39 <ehird> It's some tiny inscrutable forth program, and a javascript page that only works with MSIE.
00:05:15 <ehird> LOL, if you click "Terminate"
00:05:18 <ehird> The AI Mind is a living, sentient creature. You may unclick your decision.
00:06:18 <ehird> TODAY is Friday, December 19 2008 12:36:40 PM ** Stopped **
00:06:19 <ehird> AI-Mind Previous Thought - AI CREATE IDEAS
00:06:23 <ehird> http://aimind-i.com/
00:06:57 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
00:07:15 <ehird> The Mind goes into hibernation state (Sleep) each night at 11:59 PM and wake up at 5:59 AM
00:07:15 <ehird> unless it detects a keyboard entry. Then it awakes and remains awake till the following night.
00:11:45 -!- jix has quit ("...").
00:29:23 * ehird huddles off to his written-in-Haskell tumblelog on his HD
00:29:52 <psygnisfive> i dont like the whole microblogging thing. i dont have microbloggable ideas.
00:30:26 <ehird> tumblelog != microblog
00:30:42 <ehird> tumblelog = (blog - crap) + links + quotes + videos + pics.
00:31:19 <psygnisfive> i have a tumblr account. i dont like it much.
00:32:51 <ehird> you're wrong. have a nice day :P
00:33:00 <psygnisfive> A tumblelog is a variation of a blog that favors short-form, mixed-media posts over the longer editorial posts frequently associated with blogging. Common post formats found on tumblelogs include links, photos, quotes, dialogues, and video. Unlike blogs, tumblelogs are frequently used to share the author's creations, discoveries, or experiences while providing little or no commentary.
00:33:06 <ehird> they're also wrong.
00:33:13 <ehird> note: i use terminology how the fuck I want.
00:33:45 <ehird> hey, all the cool people do it.
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00:49:34 <comex> just like humpty dumpty
00:50:32 <kerlo> p5[cafe]: which wiki? :-P
00:51:20 <kerlo> Then again, I guess people do often refer to communication media themselves rather than the content providers.
00:51:43 <kerlo> I heard it on the radio, I saw it on TV, I read it online, I found it on the wiki.
00:52:27 <kerlo> People don't do that and expect others to know which radio station or TV station or web site or wiki they're talking about, though.
00:52:33 <oerjan> it came through the atmosphere
00:52:55 <kerlo> I perceived it via some waves.
00:54:20 <comex> actually, for 99% of the world, "i found it on the wiki" is fairly unambiguous
00:54:40 <kerlo> First, an emitter produced some waves. Then a converter converted the waves. Then a converter converted the waves. Then a converter converted the waves. Then a converter converted the waves. Then, lo and behold, they were inside my sensory organ.
00:54:53 <kerlo> True. There aren't all that many special-purpose wikis out there.
00:55:57 <kerlo> Still, I use Wikipedia, Wiktionary, the B Nomic Wiki, and, occasionally, the Esolang Wiki.
00:56:25 <kerlo> Less than an hour ago I was looking up Spanish words on the Spanish Wiktionary.
00:59:04 <kerlo> Well, I have to go do things. See you later tonight, possibly, or else tomorrow.
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12:08:09 <DH_> is everyone asleep?
12:10:27 <DH_> interesting. That like stereotyping in Mono?
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14:51:36 <ktne> is there any other interesting language feature i should consider?
14:51:58 <ktne> except pure functions since my language is imperative
14:52:18 <ehird> Lazy evaluation. Getting it to work in an imperative language is hell on earth, but it's still cool :-P
14:52:31 <ktne> D has a sort of lazy evaluation
14:52:38 <ktne> but it works more like a delegate
14:52:46 <ehird> You can't really do things like infinite lists without pain, though.
14:52:56 <ehird> ktne: extensible syntax?
14:52:59 <ktne> well, i never quite got infinite lists
14:53:00 <ehird> Lisp-style macros?
14:53:07 <ktne> ehird: yes, proper macros are planned
14:53:25 <ehird> OK. ktne: make them more generalized, so the syntax is essentially completely extensible?
14:53:32 <ehird> That'd be neat, and it'd only have overhead if you actually used it.
14:53:36 <ehird> And even then only at compile-time.
14:53:52 <ktne> my idea is to make something like this:
14:54:04 <icewizard> Is there an esoteric language similar to forth?
14:54:06 <ktne> not actual code, just pseudocode
14:54:14 <ehird> icewizard: yep, see FALS.
14:54:25 <ktne> def my_macro(string):string .... {function body}
14:54:35 <ehird> ktne: yeah, except
14:54:39 <ehird> you can't use that nicely
14:54:39 <ktne> so the macro is a function that takes a string and returns a string
14:54:42 <ehird> e.g. a new control structure
14:54:47 <ehird> foobarbaz (foo) { ... }
14:54:47 <ktne> then at compile time
14:54:51 <ehird> you can't define that with yours
14:54:54 <icewizard> Pseudocode: that's be a neat name for an esoteric language :-)
14:54:54 <ktne> surely you can
14:54:55 <ehird> manipulating code as a string is hell
14:55:00 <ktne> my idea is to take
14:55:03 <ehird> you want to give the macro an AST
14:55:10 <ktne> everything between {} as a string
14:55:14 <ktne> yes i need ast
14:55:27 <ehird> I'd just expose the parser at compile-time. Then, macros can go in a library on top of that.
14:55:54 <ktne> well, ok, wait a sec to tell you about the syntax
14:56:19 <ktne> basically all parentheses have to be balanced
14:56:38 <ktne> and strings must be closed
14:56:42 <ktne> no, not in strings
14:56:48 <ehird> Ok, well, this sounds like very conventional syntax.
14:57:01 <ehird> I just mean: Give the programmer a way to extend the parser at compile-time.
14:57:07 <ehird> Heck, expose the whole compiler.
14:57:13 <ehird> Then macros can just be a small library
14:57:20 <ktne> the macro is any function
14:57:30 <ktne> that is marked as a macro using a flag
14:57:35 <ehird> You'd have to compile the code before you compile the code.
14:57:42 <ktne> well of course
14:57:52 <ktne> it's just that it's dynamic
14:57:55 <ktne> it's not a static language
14:58:04 <ehird> Lisp is dynamic,too.
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14:58:09 <ehird> And it has macros separate from functions, entirely.
14:58:21 <ktne> each function is compiled when entered
14:58:35 <ktne> or at least when it's flagged as a macro
14:58:50 <ktne> then that function will be usable in two ways
14:59:08 <ktne> at the start of a statement without ; or a statement containing {}
14:59:13 <ktne> so if your macro is my_macro
14:59:31 <ktne> or until newline if nothing else is present
14:59:34 <ktne> then those will be preprocessed by the macros
14:59:46 <ktne> my_macro ... any string ...
14:59:47 <ehird> I dunno. It sounds like a hack.
14:59:50 <ktne> my_macro ..... ;
14:59:52 <ehird> A huge, ugly hack.
14:59:58 <ktne> my_macro (asdasd)asd ... {};
15:00:12 <ktne> those are the ways in which a macro can be used
15:00:18 <ehird> I would really, really just expose the compiler at compile-time. There's no reason not to.
15:00:36 <ktne> because there is no compiler
15:00:45 <ktne> i plan to run it using a llvm jit
15:00:50 <ktne> there is no type checking and such
15:00:57 <ktne> just at runtime
15:02:37 <ktne> my main question
15:02:37 <ehird> if there isn't a compiler your language doesn't exist
15:02:41 <ehird> you either have a compiler or an interpreter
15:02:42 <ktne> should the macro be processed
15:02:48 <ktne> it's interpreted
15:02:53 <ktne> be processed when the function is called
15:02:58 <ktne> or when the function is declared
15:03:11 <ktne> if the function is processed when called, then the macro can expand in function of function arguments
15:03:15 <ktne> otherwise it's fixed
15:04:11 <ktne> can expand in function of function arguments -> can expand depending on the actual value of function arguments
15:04:34 <ktne> i guess that would be more powerful but also somewhat slower, eventually it should be cached
15:05:13 <ktne> usually lisp macros are all at compile time, right?
15:05:18 <ktne> that would be declaration time
15:05:41 <icewizard> FALSE looks ugly. What's the most aesthetically pleasing esoteric lang?
15:05:44 <ktne> this one will be probably on call time
15:05:56 <ktne> icewizard: that whitespace langauge? :)
15:07:17 <ktne> Unlambda: Your Functional Programming Language Nightmares Come True
15:07:23 <ktne> http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/
15:07:40 <ktne> check that one
15:08:37 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BCT
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15:09:52 <ktne> what do you think?
15:10:10 <ehird> ktne: I still prefer the idea of an extensible parser at compile time
15:10:19 <ehird> It nets the same effect, but without the hack, and with more oppertunitiess
15:11:08 <ktne> not necesarily
15:11:17 <ktne> it won't have the same effect as a call time expansion
15:11:30 <ehird> umm, and it shouldn't
15:11:32 <ehird> that's not a macro
15:11:42 <ktne> why it's not a macro?
15:12:06 <ehird> macros are compile-time expansion
15:12:07 <ktne> i can see why it wouldn't be a macro
15:12:28 <ktne> i guess i will have to add both of them
15:12:38 <ehird> you can build call-time from compile-time
15:12:42 <ktne> one of them will be just a sort of eval
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15:13:06 <ktne> you cannot build call-time from compile-time because call-time can make use of actual passed arguments
15:13:19 <ehird> i think you need to try lisp macros
15:13:21 <ehird> because you absolutely can
15:13:33 <ktne> yes but they look less powerful
15:13:39 <ktne> than call-time expansion
15:13:50 <ktne> compile-time expansion is just constant call-time expansion
15:14:07 <ktne> i cannot see any case where it would be otherwise
15:14:53 <ktne> i mean, any compile-time expansion will have the same result as a call-time expansion that does not make use of actual values of passed parameters
15:15:09 <ehird> I disagree strongly, have you _tried_ lisp macros?
15:15:13 <ktne> fun(a,b) { macro {..} ...}
15:15:45 <ktne> now, if this is call-time then the macro can make use of actual value of a and b
15:16:18 <ktne> at compile time it cannot make use of their value, unless it's expanded in a piece of code that has "if (a==..) then {..} else {...}"
15:16:27 <ehird> uuhh, that's not a relevant example
15:16:37 <ktne> ok, then what would be such an example?
15:17:08 <ehird> well, generally macros aren't used like that
15:17:23 <ktne> how are macros used then?
15:17:50 <ehird> try googling for lisp macros, here's one good article:
15:17:59 <ehird> http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html
15:18:00 <ktne> well i think i'm quite familiar
15:18:10 <ktne> and this is why i do not understand your objection
15:18:24 <ktne> except the AST-tree objection
15:18:28 <ehird> it's your language, anyway.
15:18:42 <ktne> i don't say that i disagree with you
15:18:49 <ktne> because i don't understand your objection :)
15:19:45 <ktne> my idea is that the function would make use of a stdlib function to parse the string into an ast tree
15:19:59 <ktne> instead of it being provided as part of the compiler
15:26:18 <ktne> ehird: if i try to preparse something as an AST tree before feeding it to the macro
15:26:35 <ehird> ... then you need an extensible AST to allow advanced macros.
15:26:37 <ktne> then i have arbitrary limitations on the syntax that it can process
15:26:44 <ehird> And macros can be built on top of an extensible AST themselves.
15:26:47 <ktne> note that lisp doesn't have this issue
15:26:48 <ehird> Thus, extensible parser at compile time.
15:27:07 <ktne> because lisp doesn't use an internal representation that is different from the syntax representation
15:28:18 <ktne> but because my syntax representation is not the same as internal representation i cannot preprocess the code as an AST tree before feeding it into the macro
15:28:21 <ktne> do you get me?
15:28:41 <ehird> because of your self-imposed limitations on the parser.
15:28:57 <ktne> actually there is no limitation, it's the opposite
15:29:10 <ktne> the parser is a stdlib function that is called by the macro
15:29:21 <ktne> on the parts of the code that are known syntax
15:29:35 <ktne> the macro has to handle the other parts of the macros that cannot be parsed by the standard parser
15:30:04 <ktne> because there is no limitation on what form the syntax might take it is not possible to pass it first to the parser
15:30:08 <ehird> I disagree with the option you're taking, it's your language, and I can't seem to convince you. So, fine.
15:30:27 <ktne> ok, le's suppose we have a macro called regex
15:30:45 <ktne> this will compile that regex as some sort of object that does string matching
15:30:53 <ktne> how could that be preprocessed by the parser?
15:31:06 <ktne> it's not anything resembling common language syntax
15:31:07 <ehird> because at compiletime you can extend the parser
15:31:10 <ehird> and you add any syntax for regexs
15:31:11 <ktne> it's a whole different langauge
15:31:17 <ehird> even something more convenient
15:31:40 <ehird> then you add a function to compile that AST to the base language
15:32:34 <ktne> well that is for inline identifiers
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15:32:41 <ktne> i mean, for inline code
15:32:59 <ehird> it can be for anything.
15:33:07 <ktne> for example such inline macro expansion would be any 0x followed by any number of 0 and 1 and ending in 'b'
15:33:12 <ehird> want plain macros to just add a control structure? you can put that in a library!
15:33:17 <ehird> that extends the parser
15:33:34 <ehird> it's the more general, purer solution, it has more useful oppertunities, it's less of a hack, and it's better
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15:33:45 <ktne> the problem with that is that it assumes that the inner code can be preprocessed first
15:33:53 <ktne> but it cannot be
15:34:04 <ktne> think about this:
15:34:10 <ehird> excuse me. you are writing a parser anyway ,right?
15:34:15 <ehird> a parser can parse the syntax
15:34:25 <ehird> i'm giving up now, there's obviously no way I can convince you
15:34:29 <ktne> you define an inline macro (let's say by expanding the parser) that handles all those binary numbers i described above
15:34:53 <ktne> then you have a macro called my_macro that takes a block of code as parameter, maybe this is a control statement macro
15:35:10 <ktne> now let's suppose we try to work with this:
15:35:23 <ktne> my_macro { 0x1010101b 0x10010101b ; 0x10010101000b }
15:35:46 <ktne> the question is, what shall my_macro be fed with?
15:36:12 <ktne> if the parser is extended
15:36:27 <ktne> then those binary numbers would be preprocessed
15:36:36 <ktne> then a list of three binary numbers would be prepared
15:36:41 <ehird> I'm saying REMOVE MACROS
15:36:46 <ehird> macros can be made as syntactic extensions
15:36:47 <ehird> just like that one
15:36:50 <ktne> and this list would be fed into my_macro
15:36:52 <ehird> make a library to make defining macros easier
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15:37:25 <ktne> the problem with this is that it makes assumptions on what those particular strings mean in the my_macro ASL
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15:37:41 <ktne> because you cannot assign any other meaning to it
15:37:43 <ehird> you can easily make it not parse the binaries with a parser
15:37:57 <ehird> if you don't know how, well, I seriously doubt your skills in compiler construction
15:37:58 <ktne> ok, but what about all other macros?
15:38:11 <ktne> the point is that you cannot make absolutely any assumption
15:38:21 <ktne> you cannot preprocess that at all
15:38:33 <ehird> anyway, I give up, do itthe other way.
15:38:37 <ktne> instead you pass that as a STRING to the macro
15:38:48 <ktne> then the macro calls the standard parser on the parts that follow common syntax
15:39:11 <ktne> and the standard parser will parse those binary numbers into binary AST nodes
15:39:20 <ktne> binnum ast nodes
15:40:15 <ktne> this is all because you cannot preprocess the inner macros
15:40:30 <ktne> you have to leave all processing in the hightest outer macro
15:40:53 <ktne> that higher outer macro will make all necesary calls, like to preprocess any existing inline forms like binary numbers for example
15:41:14 <ktne> otherwise you have to make assumptions on what the actual macro content is, which you cannot do
15:41:46 <ktne> ehird: you would have to manually specify the list of all exceptions
15:42:13 <ktne> how do you disable binary number handling inside the macro?
15:42:33 <ehird> either you're handling regular code in the block, or you're not putting a code node in there, you're putting your custom node.
15:43:14 <ktne> but the problem is that only the higher outer macro knows what ast node the code between {} represents
15:43:29 <ehird> ... so you put that in its ast definition
15:43:31 <ehird> this is reall ysimple
15:43:55 <ktne> yes but you cannot preprocess the content of the block
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15:44:24 <ktne> because the content can be processed using only the higher outer macro because that's the one that determines the meaning of the inner block
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19:09:23 <MizardX> >>> float("inf")*float("inf")
19:09:25 <MizardX> OverflowError: (34, 'Result too large')
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21:18:11 <ais523> see zzo38's latest esowiki edit
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21:25:45 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
21:29:42 <FireFly> I'd like to see a language where the variables are named by positive integers from 0 and up, that each start with its respective value as its default value, and where those variables are the only way to modify the variables.. Eg. no native numerals.
21:29:53 <ais523> FireFly: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte
21:30:02 <ais523> oh, also control flow's done that way
21:30:15 <ais523> and it messes up arithmetic:
21:31:17 <ais523> also notable is that it has no known implementations in /non/-esoteric languages
21:33:49 <FireFly> This now outputs 42, as 9 has the value 7.
21:38:45 <oerjan> no, that's exactly as correct :D
21:47:55 <FireFly> Has anyone ever tried to implement Sir. Cut?
21:55:27 <ehird> also, I'd ignore zzo38 most of the time
21:55:38 <ehird> Some of his langs are fun but apart from that he's pretty loony.
21:55:48 <ehird> (In the boring sense rather than the esoteric sense.)
21:56:14 <ehird> seeing his latest comment, umm, it certainly isn't english.
21:56:34 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainClub
21:56:40 <ehird> his stupid web browser supports that, lol
21:58:07 <ehird> Although sometimes zzo38 says deep things.
21:58:08 <ehird> "// These numbers are just examples. In reality they would be stupid"
21:58:58 <ehird> speaking of which, I made a toy lazy SKI interpreter in C to help impomatic understand SKI.
21:58:59 <ehird> http://pastie.org/385352.txt?key=12g4muwehv2sg6qieyv3w
21:59:02 <ehird> Requires Boehm GC.
21:59:28 <ehird> Not speaking of which at all actually butthere you go
21:59:59 <ehird> actually it's broken
22:00:08 <ehird> non-combinator constant expressions never terminate
22:03:59 <ehird> http://pastie.org/385435.txt?key=y4wsv9nkgik3jmeaixmqdg
22:04:59 <ehird> ```sii``sii is fun with laziness
22:05:00 <ehird> ``i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i``sii`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i`i``sii
22:05:44 <Slereah2> It goes thusly : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Loop.jpg
22:06:09 <ehird> It's a lovely pattern
22:06:31 <ehird> Wonder if there's an infinite loop that doesn't grow lazily
22:07:37 <ehird> We're all very lazy.
22:07:49 <Slereah2> That's the whole reason for Lazy Bird
22:08:01 <ehird> Slereah2: Erm, lazy SKI is not an innovative concept
22:08:28 <Slereah2> But it still is the reason behind it :3
22:08:35 <oerjan> lazy SKI: when you go straight to the after-ski
22:08:39 <ehird> Huh, ```sii``sii somehow stays in constant space in my interp
22:08:44 <kerlo> ```sii``sii -> ``i``sii`i``sii -> ```sii`i``sii -> ``i`i``sii`i`i``sii
22:08:46 <Slereah2> Really, it started out as me trying to make Unlambda on a Turing machine.
22:08:54 <Slereah2> And you guys told me "this is wrong, this is lazy"
22:08:58 <ehird> Now it's growing in space.
22:09:02 <Slereah2> And I was all like "What the fuck is lazy?"
22:09:08 <ehird> Less than a megabyte thoooo
22:09:39 <ehird> I conclude that this will eventually overflow the stack.
22:09:44 <ehird> If you wait like 5 billion years.
22:10:10 <oerjan> ehird: it's square root growth, isn't it.
22:10:23 <kerlo> Slereah2: so, what is this oddly-anti-aliased image of yours?
22:10:29 <ehird> well, my interp actually only uses the stack very shallowly.
22:10:35 <Slereah2> It is this : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Loop.txt
22:10:35 <oerjan> it has to chop off all the i's before the next big iteration
22:10:39 <ehird> kerlo: small screenshot of lazy ```sii`sii evolution
22:10:47 <kerlo> (I have a feeling sinc or Lanczos resampling wouldn't do that. :-P)
22:10:50 <ehird> my interp will only recurse to find:
22:10:54 <ehird> the equality of two expressions
22:10:57 <ehird> to evaluate the applier
22:11:10 <ehird> So it'll take Quite a Long Time to make this crash
22:11:50 <oerjan> oh right recursion too, so removing _one_ i would be O(n)
22:12:13 <ehird> you know what's irritating?
22:12:14 <ehird> warning: this program uses gets(), which is unsafe.
22:12:24 <ehird> NANNY STATE OF THE C LIBRARIES
22:14:00 <oerjan> i don't really know, but i expect 99% of fatal security bugs are because of something the programmer _should_ have seen, and which he would think is so obvious that he would be annoyed if he was warned about it (before getting a clue)
22:14:19 <oerjan> but that's just my general prejudice on human stupidity
22:14:43 <ehird> it should tell me at COMPILE TIME
22:14:47 <ehird> not at EVERY SINGLE RUNTIME
22:16:17 <oerjan> hm wait that recursion is only O(n) if it restarts at the top every step
22:16:37 <oerjan> otherwise it can obviously do all the i's in O(n)
22:16:41 <ehird> ````ssk``s`k``ss`s``sskk```ssk``s`k``ss`s``sskk
22:17:55 <oerjan> problem is because of the way s works, you cannot get the third argument simplified until you actually use it. hm.
22:18:20 <ehird> we need an expression that takes N steps to get to itself
22:18:24 <ehird> (not an equivalent version; itself)
22:19:08 <oerjan> hm something with church numerals?
22:19:42 <ehird> oerjan: fun fact: the Y combinator (or any fixed point combinator) is the infinite church numeral
22:19:47 <oerjan> you can turn something equivalent to a church numeral into a church numeral by applying it to increment
22:20:15 <ehird> can you figure out how?
22:20:25 <ehird> it actually goes to
22:20:29 <ehird> but you can fixthat
22:20:56 <ehird> (i mean, it's just \x y -> fix x)
22:22:18 <ehird> oerjan: am I right, wrong?
22:25:06 <ehird> "But, you might not understand how to write a program in FORTAVM if you aren't a real programmer"
22:25:12 <ehird> -- zzo38 serious project http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/User:Zzo38/FORTAVM
22:25:58 <ais523> it reminded me of FORTRAN, but I didn't misread it
22:26:20 <ehird> i saw a post by zzo38 on some forum
22:26:34 <ehird> it was in a topic about the forum's improved search feature
22:26:40 <ehird> he complained, saying it would be better if it was less user friendly
22:26:48 <oerjan> i'm sure i would read better if there wasn't someone with an annoying sulky voice having a phone conversation in the next room
22:26:48 <ehird> for no reason other than it would be less user friendly
22:27:01 <ehird> crazy guy. I wonder if it's just a put-on personality.
22:29:21 * oerjan wonders what his native language is.
22:29:29 <ehird> I think it's actually english.
22:29:35 <ehird> He just, ummm, doesn't know english.
22:29:58 <ehird> Possibly autism or something
22:30:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:33:26 <oerjan> aww, someone corrected a spelling error in the English article
22:34:49 <ehird> I would probably use a athena widgets or a similar one, and not targeting any particular desktop to make it work with any desktop or even working without desktop at all, I don't even know why you need a desktop anyways!
22:34:54 * oerjan thought the spelling errors were the best part...
22:34:58 <ehird> Yeah us crazy people and our desktops
22:35:05 <ehird> Athena widgets are awesome.
22:35:40 <ehird> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/9275/173050.aspx
22:35:41 <ehird> Hay! I paid for this! Now it is nearly gone and now what am I supposed to do?
22:36:40 <ehird> "Which forum, which isn't closed, does have something to do with that BBS?"
22:37:28 <ais523> <KenW> You can't be so stupid that you can't get the point here. Can you? No, nobody could be that dumb and manage to feed themselves enough to live. Could they?
22:37:50 <ehird> zzo38: Advancing the understanding of human knowledge daily.
22:37:52 <ais523> <zzo38> I can't write very clearly enough to be understood
22:38:27 <ehird> Theory: zzo38 is actually an AI.
22:38:52 <ehird> The fact that he is batshit insane and has no common sense (which he admits) is attributed to the lack of the millions of years of evolution and development of this that humans have gone through
22:38:55 -!- jix has joined.
22:39:35 <oerjan> ehird: also, you are a prick
22:39:59 <ais523> actually, he probably has Asperger's Syndrome
22:40:07 <ehird> I said autism earlier
22:40:19 <kerlo> ehird: do you have autism?
22:40:26 <oerjan> the forum posts you linked to shows that zzo38 is clearly aware of his problems, and cannot do anything about them.
22:40:27 <ehird> kerlo: Probably not.
22:40:43 <ehird> oerjan: Doesn't mean i can't theorize about the origins,.
22:41:06 <kerlo> I blame my batshit insanity on aphasia. :-D
22:41:51 <ehird> except for j and wooble :p
22:42:11 <lament> a prick with aspergers - asprick?
22:42:11 <ehird> kerlo: You have aphasia? :P
22:42:21 <ehird> lament: Or, "a sprick"
22:42:25 <ehird> "You're such a sprick."
22:43:03 <oerjan> no one here likes aspricks, except psygnisfive
22:43:44 <pikhq> Hmm, look at what I walked into.
22:43:47 <kerlo> ehird: come over to my house, turn on the radio to NPR, and say something. I might understand you.
22:43:58 <oerjan> pikhq: you've been here all along
22:44:11 <pikhq> oerjan: I leave my IRC client on 24/7.
22:44:40 <pikhq> Would you prefer to think that I never sleep?
22:45:33 <pikhq> My roommate would agree.
22:45:53 <ehird> woot, it's time for a polyglot emergency procedure
22:45:58 <kerlo> Does that mean that sleep deprivation makes weenies unhappy?
22:46:00 <pikhq> He sleeps a total of 2 hours a day.
22:46:04 <pikhq> (polyphasic sleep)
22:46:07 <ehird> e5 emergency + earlier e5 emergency + e2 emergency
22:46:35 <ehird> B Nomic. I'm mentioning this in here because it is esoteric.
22:46:41 <ais523> ehird: just because you've left ##nomic doesn't mean you have to turn #esoteric into ##nomic
22:46:42 <ehird> Basically, half the rules may have been commented out for 5 years.
22:46:49 <ehird> ais523: The situation is esoteric in the highest degree
22:46:50 <oerjan> kerlo: it makes _me_ unhappy at least
22:46:53 <ehird> Therefore, it is relevant. QED.
22:47:06 <ais523> hmm... I'll ask oerjan the relevant question
22:47:15 <ais523> oerjan: in [[a]]b[[c]], is the b between "[[" and "]]"?
22:47:31 <ehird> Note: 5 years of gameplay is destroyed if you say "yes". :P
22:47:35 <ehird> Also, it's actually
22:47:41 <ais523> ehird: no, the 5 years of gameplay never existed
22:47:50 <ais523> ehird: still all one document, though
22:47:52 <ehird> I want him to feel GUILTY, dammit.
22:47:59 <jix> i'd say it is inbetween
22:48:11 <ehird> jix: Congrats! You have destroyed B Nomic. Have a nickel.
22:48:15 <oerjan> i'll say "no" then, since that was my initial hunch anyway
22:48:26 -!- kwufo has quit ("Leaving.").
22:48:36 <ehird> oerjan is a published mathematician and therefore not a retarded monkey.
22:48:38 <ehird> And therefore correct.
22:48:39 <jix> but i'm not a native english speaker....
22:48:42 <ehird> Let's go back to playing B Nomic.
22:48:43 -!- kwufo has joined.
22:48:53 <Slereah2> ehird : But he has no Erdos number!
22:49:04 <oerjan> although obviously there should have been a "matching" in there to clarify.
22:49:52 <jix> 1 at, into, or across the space separating (two objects or regions)
22:49:54 <oerjan> i'm sure some of the best mathematicians are retarded monkeys. or great apes, at least.
22:50:11 <jix> i just can't see how b is not between [[ and ]]
22:50:25 <Slereah2> I bet a million monkeys at a million typewriter could publish a math paper
22:50:28 <ais523> ehird's assuming it was on the wish-it-were interpretation
22:50:39 <lament> Slereah2: sure, how much do you want to bet?
22:50:49 <ehird> in the context of the rules
22:51:01 <ais523> ehird: it's obvious what was meant. That's different from what it /is/.
22:51:08 <ais523> just like in programming, the compiler doesn't guess what you meant
22:51:18 <ais523> well, unless you're writing in Perl
22:51:37 <lament> Slereah2: deal! Let's do it.
22:51:40 <jix> what is the exact relevant sentence?
22:51:51 <oerjan> since last it was mentioned here
22:52:04 <Slereah2> First, to find a million monkeys...
22:52:39 <jix> ais523: can you point me to the rule where the word between is used?
22:52:54 <ais523> jix: I'm trying to find it
22:53:01 <ais523> the problem is that there were lots of versions
22:53:14 <oerjan> hm what are the most common primates other than humans?
22:53:22 <ehird> jix: here's the maybe-current version:
22:53:38 <ehird> In every Game Document, with the exception of this paragraph, text between a forward slash+asterisk character combination and an asterisk+forward slash character combination or between double square brackets (that is, text between "/*" and "*/" or between "[[" and "]]") shall be deemed Comment Text. Comment Text has no direct effect on the state of the game, although it can be read.
22:53:54 <pikhq> Slereah2: A million monkeys at a million typewriters given infinte time could probably *compose* a math paper. However, they probably couldn't publish one.
22:53:54 <ais523> In each Game Document, with the exception of this paragraph, text
22:53:56 <ais523> between doubled square brackets (that is, text between "[[" and "]]")
22:53:57 <ais523> shall be deemed Comment Text. Comment Text has no direct effect on the
22:53:59 <ais523> state of the game, although it can be read.
22:54:00 <ehird> grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
22:54:04 <pikhq> Instead, they would throw shit on the page.
22:54:06 <ehird> read before flooding
22:54:11 <ais523> ehird: you pasted the wrong version
22:54:24 <ehird> they were identical, ais523
22:54:27 <ais523> but the problem is, if /any/ of the versions is buggy, B's in trouble
22:54:30 <ais523> ehird: no they weren't
22:54:38 <ais523> so they aren't identical
22:54:51 <ais523> also, yours is probably more problematic than mine
22:55:04 <ais523> "between a forward slash+asterisk character combination and an asterisk+forward slash character combination" has absolutly no implication of matching involved
22:55:08 <ehird> so, someone make a constant-space lazy ski infloop :D
22:55:15 <ais523> whereas "between double square brackets" might do
22:55:49 <jix> slash+asterisk character combination doesn't specify the order of / and * for me....
22:55:54 <oerjan> my question: is that rule on comments itself after a [[ and before a ]]? :D
22:56:03 <jix> so it would imply */ this is a comment /*
22:56:05 <ais523> oerjan: in some versions of the ruleset, not in others
22:56:14 <jix> which is _extra_ problematic
22:56:22 -!- _0x44 has joined.
22:56:28 <pikhq> That seems rather problematic; how would it parse [[Comment 1?[[]]Comment3?]]
22:56:43 <pikhq> Would Comment3? be comment or not?
22:57:06 <ehird> That's not an issue, we don't have that in the rules.
22:57:11 <ehird> The issue is foo [[bar]] baz [[quux]]
22:57:20 <pikhq> That, too, is an issue.
22:57:22 <ehird> Is baz comment text? I argue that assuming greedy is just as silly as assuming non-greedy.
22:57:22 <ais523> ehird: are you sure? that that was never there in several years of B Nomic?
22:57:29 <ais523> ehird: it's not a case of assuming
22:57:32 <ais523> it's the literal meaning of "between"
22:57:33 <ehird> Therefore, we must pick one, and I will pick the one that doesn't break FIVE YEARS.
22:57:39 <ais523> greedy vs. nongreedy is a programming concept
22:57:45 <ais523> that has nothing to do with betweenness
22:57:50 <ehird> go up to someone on the street
22:57:53 <ais523> the word between does not immediately generate a regexp whenever it's used
22:57:53 <pikhq> I vote that you break 5 years. B Nomic breaks a lot. ;p
22:58:03 <_0x44> ehird: A regular person doesn't play B.
22:58:08 <ehird> I will bet £30 they won't pick your interpretaiton
22:58:09 <_0x44> ehird: So your argument is flawed.
22:58:09 <ais523> ehird: yes, they'll say "between means between, why are you spouting all these programming terms at me?"
22:58:19 -!- Sgeo[College] has joined.
22:58:19 <ehird> ais523: don't say greedy/non greedy
22:58:22 <ais523> if they even know they're programming terms
22:58:25 <jix> would /* foo */ bar /* baz */ be an issue too?
22:58:30 <ehird> _0x44: a regular person has the better interests of B in mind, then.
22:58:36 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: in [[a]]b[[c]], is the b between "[[" and "]]"?
22:58:41 <oerjan> hm if you asked someone on the street whether something was "between parentheses", they would probably assuming matching.
22:59:38 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: we've been having a huge argument about that for about 5 minutes here, and much longer elsewhere
22:59:42 <Sgeo[College]> Wait, that wasn't a trick question? You really want me to make such an interpretation for the sake of B?
22:59:45 <ais523> just trying to gain data points
22:59:50 <jix> i have found something interesting
22:59:54 <jix> bracket: each of a pair of marks [ ] used to enclose words or figures so as to separate them from the context
23:00:02 <jix> so the term brackets implies pairs
23:00:06 <jix> which implies matching....
23:00:11 <ais523> do pairs imply matching?
23:00:15 <ais523> but that definition's interesting
23:00:19 <ais523> it implies that [ is not a bracket
23:00:25 <ais523> until someone writes the matching ]
23:00:29 <ais523> and that's a ridiculous interpretation
23:00:44 <jix> it's from the dictionary that comes with mac os x
23:00:57 <oerjan> it's a bra. a rather ill-fitting one.
23:01:07 <jix> new oxford american dictionary
23:01:15 <ehird> ais523: that definition is from ... yeah, what jix said
23:01:21 <ehird> I think they're more of an authority than you...
23:01:51 <jix> (i have no interest in breaking or saving nomic but i think it is a damn interesting question....)
23:01:52 <ais523> ehird: well, that will lead to all sorts of breakage in all sorts of esolangs
23:01:56 <_0x44> I just got two conflicting answers from two "normal" people.
23:02:15 <ehird> _0x44: this is showing that there IS ambiguity, there IS room for disagreement
23:02:22 <jix> ais523: wait each of a pair.....
23:02:23 <ehird> thus, we can collectively decide which we will interpret it as
23:02:25 <ehird> so let's not break the game
23:02:30 <jix> ais523: doesn't tha mean one of those that belong to a pair?
23:03:17 <jix> i think one should decide this by giving some references on how to inrepret this
23:03:21 <jix> and random people aren't good references
23:03:26 <ehird> Sgeo[College]: yay, majority
23:03:29 <kerlo> If a normal person, upon being given the sentence "The (quick) brown fox jumps over the (lazy) dog" and an instruction to determine how many words are between parentheses, might say "two" rather than "seven", then the good interpretation is acceptable.
23:04:19 <ehird> yes, but I think we've established you have little to no grip on reality, like most people in here
23:04:36 <pikhq> Like most Nomicians.
23:04:39 <ais523> I mentally interpreted it as "between parenthesized groups" the way you said it
23:04:51 <ais523> I can't actually mentally reword it to get the answer 2
23:04:54 <oerjan> i have a good grip on reality, with my InstaGrip Universe Squeezer here
23:05:05 <ais523> "for each maching set of parentheses, between the two parentheses that make up the set"?
23:05:21 <ais523> ehird: in "The (quick (brown) fox) jumps over the lazy dog", how many words are between parentheses?
23:05:46 <ehird> quick, brown and fox.
23:05:47 <ais523> in that case, I'd say your 2 above is bogus
23:06:00 <jix> ais523: would you let the definition of brackets have influence of how to interpret this?
23:06:06 <ais523> ehird: exactly, and a nesting-matters interpretation should count brown twice, thus reach 4
23:06:12 -!- SchrodingersCat has joined.
23:06:19 <kerlo> How about "how many words are within parentheses"?
23:06:25 <ehird> there isn't two brown
23:06:27 <ais523> kerlo: within, I'd say 2 and 3
23:06:29 <ehird> it cannot count as 2
23:06:47 <ehird> we're counting WORDS
23:06:54 <ehird> there are only 3 words that appear between parentheses
23:07:19 <ais523> enclosed or within, fine
23:07:34 <ehird> between = enclosed between
23:07:36 <jix> i got 5 as answer to "The (quick) brown fox jumps over the (lazy) dog"
23:07:36 <ehird> common english usage
23:07:48 <ais523> ehird: so it isn't such a ridiculous question after all
23:08:02 <ais523> it wasn't just me who jumped to 5 as the answer to that question...
23:08:05 <ehird> jix: its not a good question
23:08:07 <jix> ehird: enclosed between?
23:08:10 <ehird> parens = parenthesed groups
23:08:12 <ehird> is also common usage
23:08:20 <ais523> no, sexps = parenthesised groups
23:08:39 <ehird> yes if you're a programmer
23:08:46 <ehird> the question IS ambiguous
23:08:47 <kerlo> Nobody ever says sexps.
23:08:51 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:08:52 <kerlo> Speaking of which...
23:09:22 <MizardX> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/407518/code-golf-leibniz-formula-for-pi/408493#408493 :)
23:09:23 -!- kerlobot has joined.
23:10:13 <ehird> %eval (((s i) i) ((s i) i))
23:10:19 <ehird> MizardX: Stack overflow? Ugh.
23:10:21 <kerlobot> (((YOU ARE LOOP SORRY) i) (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i (i
23:10:40 <ehird> shortest pi prorgam?
23:10:47 <ehird> it just prints the first few digits
23:11:00 <ehird> it terminates loop
23:11:38 * Sgeo[College] points ais523 and ehird and others to SchrodingersCat's responses in ##nomic
23:11:46 <ehird> ais523: you got a lazy SKI infinite loop that doesn't grow?
23:11:56 -!- _0x44 has quit.
23:12:30 <oerjan> that's ok, we'd prefer you to have it on hand
23:14:24 <ais523> also, int is correct, void isn't
23:14:36 <ais523> kerlo: that's compile error in C++
23:14:46 <ais523> SchrodingersCat: doesn't need one to be valid
23:14:56 <ais523> lament: that looks like Haskell
23:14:59 <kerlo> Can you say "address of main = address of 0"?
23:15:01 <ais523> kerlo: it's valid C89, though
23:15:04 <kerlo> lament: you mean main = unsafeCoerce 0.
23:15:11 <ais523> kerlo: that's main=0 in C89
23:15:29 <ais523> Sgeo[College]: in most, although gcc will shout at you because the standard doesn't let you do that
23:16:22 <ehird> kerlo: does kerlobot do abstraction elimination
23:16:31 <kerlo> No. Maybe it ought to.
23:16:38 <kerlo> Also, you can implement abstraction elimination.
23:16:40 * SchrodingersCat saw Sgeo[College] log off of the computer he was working on.
23:17:25 <kerlo> I would expect it to be rather difficult. :-P
23:17:25 <ais523> SchrodingersCat: do you know Sgeo in RL?
23:17:59 -!- Sgeo[College] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
23:18:09 <ehird> oklopol: olobot plz
23:18:19 <ehird> it has abstraction eliminaty
23:18:37 <jix> g++ compiles "main(){};"
23:19:02 <jix> uh why did i put a ; there 0o...
23:19:33 <jix> ah but with -pedantic
23:19:37 <jix> ISO C++ forbids declaration of ‘main’ with no type
23:20:29 <ais523> jix: yes, that's a C89-ism
23:23:04 <jix> int(*main);
23:23:09 <jix> g++ compiles that with -pedantic -ansi
23:23:15 <jix> of course it crashes
23:23:25 <jix> as main is an uninitialized function pointer
23:23:27 <jix> but it compiles
23:23:59 <ais523> jix: that's undefined behaviour
23:24:11 <ais523> and it's a legal translation unit, but not legal as an entire program
23:24:21 <ais523> legal as a translation unit is why g++ didn't complain
23:24:34 <ais523> it's the linker that should complain, and it doesn't have enough context to know it should complain about C++'s rules
23:24:38 <jix> ais523: it doesn't
23:24:44 <jix> ais523: this isn't declared as extern
23:24:57 <jix> so it's initialized with 0
23:25:24 <jix> that's what i'd expect
23:26:27 <ehird> possibly compiles, runs
23:26:38 <ais523> ehird: that's legal C (although UB), but not legal C++, even though it may compile
23:26:45 <ehird> who cares about C++
23:26:46 <jix> ehird: 'test.cpp:1: error: expected constructor, destructor, or type conversion before ‘=’ token'
23:26:53 <ehird> SchrodingersCat: machine koed
23:26:56 <jix> ehird: we were talking about the smalles C++ program
23:27:42 <jix> i guess the c++ standard isn't free?
23:28:04 <ehird> google it, there's probably a pirated version somewheres
23:29:54 <ehird> tiny.c:1: error: empty scalar initializer
23:29:55 <ehird> tiny.c:1: error: (near initialization for ‘main’)
23:29:59 <ehird> why isn't main={}; valid
23:30:09 <ehird> shouldn't it just be a 0-length array
23:30:22 <ais523> IIRC, one of the drafts is online
23:30:29 <ais523> and it's a just-before-the-official-version drafts
23:30:31 <jix> ais523: i got it already
23:30:38 <jix> ais523: googled for ISO/IEC 14882:1998 .... first hit
23:32:26 <ehird> here's the smallest K&R c program
23:32:39 <ehird> compiles to this rather tiny assembly
23:32:40 <ehird> .subsections_via_symbols
23:32:48 <ais523> at least if int and int(*)() are the same size
23:32:50 <ehird> it's all assembler directives XD
23:32:58 <ehird> ais523: segfaults, ofc
23:33:18 <ais523> given that it isn't initialising memory
23:33:25 <ehird> ais523: well, there is a tiny chance it wouldn't
23:33:27 <ehird> SchrodingersCat: yes
23:33:30 <ais523> might there be a chance that you end up with a valid program by chance?
23:33:38 <ehird> but it's a rather small chance
23:33:45 <ehird> "main" is not a function
23:33:51 <ehird> I didn't give it a type
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23:33:54 <ehird> it's int but that could be anything
23:33:59 <ehird> ASS OUT OF YOU AND ME
23:34:27 <ais523> ehird: in K&R C, and in C89 but it's deprecated, int is the default type when one isn't given
23:34:38 <ais523> holdover from BCPL, where everything was an int
23:34:41 <ehird> but an int could be practically anything :P
23:34:45 <ehird> everything was a word
23:34:55 <ais523> a 32-bit word, to be precise
23:35:08 <ais523> I don't think it ran on processors with different bitwidths
23:35:22 <ehird> that's from the B original hello world :-)
23:35:34 <ehird> it defined three variables with 'hell', 'o, w' and 'orld'
23:35:39 <ehird> and printed them out separately, then a newline
23:35:42 <ehird> (yes, single quotes)
23:36:23 <ais523> come to think of it, 32-bit processors weren't very popular back then
23:36:24 <ehird> well duh, B is a simplified(!) BCPL
23:36:29 <ais523> must have been for mainframes, or something
23:36:34 <ais523> also, BCPL has the best array index notation ever
23:36:51 <ais523> or you could write a!4, it comes to the same thing
23:37:02 <ais523> just like you can write 4[a] in C
23:37:18 <jix> ais523: you are right
23:37:29 <ais523> jix: about what? [[a]]b[[c]]?
23:37:30 <jix> didn't realize i was just making an int pointer there ^^
23:37:34 <ehird> main="Hello, world!\n";
23:37:37 <kerlo> %eval (c h (ello, world))
23:37:38 <ehird> functions on the cat architechture.
23:37:44 <ais523> anyway, I have to go home now
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23:37:48 <jix> ais523: and the standard sais main has to be a function
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06:42:47 <oklopol> ais523: it implies that [ is not a bracket ||| ais523: until someone writes the matching ] ||| ais523: and that's a ridiculous interpretation <<< s/ridiculous/awesome/
06:44:00 <oklopol> ehird: I think they're more of an authority than you... <<< what did you mean by this? that they have the authority to decide [ isn't a bracket?
06:45:06 <oklopol> kerlo: If a normal person, upon being given the sentence "The (quick) brown fox jumps over the (lazy) dog" and an instruction to determine how many words are between parentheses, might say "two" rather than "seven", then the good interpretation is acceptable. <<< i'd assume "in parenthesis" if you'd meant the words in parens, would say 5 too
06:49:00 <oklopol> because i don't know the cutoff, and because things i say matter, i'm going to resay half of that latter sentence.
06:49:01 <oklopol> , might say "two" rather than "seven", then the good interpretation is acceptable. <<< i'd assume "in parenthesis" if you'd meant the words in parens, would say 5 too
06:49:22 <oklopol> and then the o's again, obviously
06:55:03 <oklopol> also if someone then said "no no not between the paren groups, i mean between the actual parenthesis characters", i'd be like oh it's a trick, let's see, oh, 7, right.
06:56:09 <oklopol> But, you might not understand how to write a program in FORTAVM if you aren't a real programmer, but someone can make other graphical interfaces as well to program it if you want to. <<< and the rest of the sentence makes it clear what he means
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08:37:11 <oklopol> how's that working for you
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10:07:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, <oklopol> ais523: it implies that [ is not a bracket ||| ais523: until someone writes the matching ] ||| ais523: and that's a ridiculous interpretation <<< s/ridiculous/awesome/ <-- I can't find that in my logs, when is it from?
11:16:35 <MizardX> around Wed Feb 11 00:00 2009 CET
12:46:31 <oklopol> MizardX: why would you interpret that correctly, when you could just as well misinterpret it to ask when my message was sent?
12:48:50 <MizardX> Since he copied it, he shuld know from where. What is not apperant is when the quoted lines where sent.
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12:50:53 <MizardX> Anyway, I just searched for a substring of that in the logs, and found just that exact message, and the quoted lines from a while ago.
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13:20:51 <fizzie> But the possibilities for intentionally misinterpreting it were there, and you senselessly wasted them!
13:46:57 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:58:01 <ehird> "According to Arnold Kim, in the latest Snow Leopard seed QuickTime Pro features are baked right in to regular old QuickTime, just like they should have been all along."
13:58:12 <ehird> Did it take Apple that long to realise that QuickTime "Pro" was a laughing stock?
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14:00:55 <ehird> 04:46:31 <oklopol> MizardX: why would you interpret that correctly, when you could just as well misinterpret it to ask when my message was sent?
14:00:56 <ehird> 04:46:36 <oklopol> just wondering.
14:01:00 <ehird> he is not awesome enough. duh.
14:08:41 -!- impomatic has joined.
14:11:49 <impomatic> There's an anonymous comment on my blog with the code for a BF Joust warrior that scores 277 (of a possible 300) - http://tr.im/frhp
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14:54:02 <oklopol> should be something trivial from linear algebra
14:54:06 <oklopol> i just don't remember what.
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14:56:20 <oklopol> i think GL_2(R) is just an example of a lie group
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15:41:57 <ehird> "Be warned that the code 16, when used as the destination of a mapping, actually causes a kernel panic on keypress -— as I’ve found out the hard way. "
15:45:02 * ehird remaps [] to () and vise versa
15:46:49 <ehird> sheesh, SBCL is ridiculously fast
15:53:57 <ehird> oh man, emacs gets like 50x better when you disable the beep
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16:10:54 <ehird> #macosx: Masters of stating the really fucking useless obvious. http://pastie.org/386081.txt?key=ur8hitumxmju7heqzjkong
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16:25:26 <ehird> CL-USER> (expt (exp 1) (* pi (complex 0 1)))
16:25:27 <ehird> #C(-0.9999999999999825d0 1.8725351415038922d-7)
16:25:34 <ehird> One day I will find a language that does this properly.
16:30:52 <oklopol> any language that knows math
16:31:11 <ehird> oklopol: what does J say
16:31:41 <ehird> any language that doesn't get euler's identity right is worthless.
16:31:43 <oklopol> doesn't look like the exact same wrong result, but should be the same operations
16:32:05 <ehird> oklopol: why do you LIE
16:32:55 <oklopol> python gives the exact same wrong result
16:33:19 <ehird> what about JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ
16:33:21 <oklopol> anyway the problem is while j knows its rationals, it doesn't know anything about reals, not even the nice ones.
16:33:32 <oklopol> ehird: i tried before saying anything
16:33:38 <oklopol> because i was like J CAN SO DO THAT
16:33:44 <ehird> even haskell gets it wrong
16:33:55 <ehird> oklopol: well why couldn't it, it could just hardcode it.
16:34:22 <oklopol> i think of haskell as a pretty low-level language, not sure why, maybe it's the bounded integers exist thing
16:34:40 <ehird> haskell is really high level :|
16:34:50 <ehird> plus nobody likes/uses the bounded integeeeeeeers
16:35:40 <oklopol> i'm not sure why it feels low-level, but for some reason j feels higher-level to me, just less sophisticated.
16:35:50 <oklopol> do realize this has nothing to do with reason
16:35:55 <oklopol> have you tried mathematica
16:36:04 <oklopol> i have a hunch it gets it right :)
16:36:30 <oklopol> (if you do it right, that is, it probably does float stuff too)
16:37:47 <ehird> In[10]:= (E ** (I Pi)) + 1
16:37:48 <ehird> Out[10]= 1 + E ** (I \[Pi])
16:38:00 <ehird> In[11]:= N[(E ** (I Pi)) + 1]
16:38:01 <ehird> Out[11]= 1. + 2.71828 ** (0. + 3.14159 I)
16:38:06 <ehird> how lovely and USELESS
16:38:19 <ehird> I WANT A NUMBER, MATHEMATICA
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16:39:15 <ehird> i hate mathematica now.
16:39:24 <ehird> 16:38 <ehird> FIRST ATTEMPT:
16:39:25 <ehird> 16:38 <ehird> In[10]:= (E ** (I Pi)) + 1
16:39:26 <ehird> 16:38 <ehird> Out[10]= 1 + E ** (I \[Pi])
16:39:27 <ehird> 16:38 <ehird> SECOND:
16:39:29 <ehird> 16:38 <ehird> In[11]:= N[(E ** (I Pi)) + 1]
16:39:31 <ehird> 16:38 <ehird> Out[11]= 1. + 2.71828 ** (0. + 3.14159 I)
16:39:33 <ehird> 16:38 <ehird> how lovely and USELESS
16:39:43 <ehird> what does excel say
16:39:56 <ehird> (We're putting euler's identity into a bunch of calculamators to see how they handle it)
16:40:09 <oklopol> i try to get a function from the list, and it says "btw this here formula isn't finished yet, so there's a parse error, why not start over?"
16:40:14 <ais523> ehird: mathematica's all pattern matching, so it fails on anything that hasn't been coded into it
16:40:23 <ehird> ais523: youve said
16:40:27 <ehird> but how come N[] didn't work
16:42:20 <oklopol> excel doesn't know complexes
16:42:27 <ehird> excel is too UNCOMPLEX.
16:42:34 <MizardX> (-1+1.2246467991473532e-16j)
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16:43:06 <ehird> ; SLIME 2006-04-20
16:43:07 <oklopol> i'm not sure how i managed to forget pressing the function list button like 10 times.
16:43:09 <ehird> CL-USER> (defun calculate-e-to-the-power-of-i-times-pi-plus-one ()
16:43:09 <ehird> CALCULATE-E-TO-THE-POWER-OF-I-TIMES-PI-PLUS-ONE
16:43:11 <ehird> CL-USER> (calculate-e-to-the-power-of-i-times-pi-plus-one)
16:43:15 <ehird> Fuck yeah common lisp
16:43:44 <oklopol> i just mentally copied what you did
16:44:05 <oklopol> (expt (exp 1) (* pi (complex 0 1))) = (exp (* pi (complex 0 1))) ofc
16:44:20 <ehird> CL-USER> (exp (* pi (complex 0 1)))
16:44:21 <ehird> #C(-1.0d0 1.2246063538223773d-16)
16:44:28 <ehird> oklopol: how come you think in common lisp
16:45:09 <oklopol> that one i thought in math
16:45:39 <oklopol> so you know trigonometry, huh, ehird
16:45:59 <ehird> oklopol: stop mocking me :P
16:46:18 <oklopol> if you actually knew what that identity means
16:46:29 <ehird> it means euler had some awesome drugs.
16:46:33 <oklopol> because while it's trivial, it would mean you know at least some basic math
16:46:42 <ehird> <oklopol> because while it's trivial, it would mean you know at least some basic math
16:47:26 <oklopol> well it *is* trivial, after you know the nontrivial stuff it's built on :P
16:47:54 <ehird> hmm why do I like common lisp
16:48:17 <ehird> ... well it's lisp, and it's really fucking fast
16:48:23 <ehird> and emacs+slime kind of reminds me of lisp machines.
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16:49:06 <oklopol> do you like lisp machines?
16:49:29 <ehird> even other language fanatics like lisp machines
16:49:31 <oklopol> so these games where you're like a hacker and you know try to hack stuff, they exist right?
16:49:38 <ehird> because they can implement their own language on top of lisp.
16:49:42 <ehird> oklopol: see: Uplink
16:49:45 <oklopol> because i was thinking making rootquest.
16:50:05 <oklopol> more like virtual machine, try to hack to root on it
16:50:24 <ais523> yes, it's called a virtual machine
16:50:36 <ais523> just grab any OS you like, and try to hack it
16:50:59 <ais523> DOS would be very hard to hack from the outside
16:51:03 <oklopol> and do realize i don't actually believe you can leave loopholes in code except on purpose
16:51:03 <ais523> given that it has no clue how to open ports
16:51:13 <ehird> ais523: erm, DOS has 0 security
16:51:16 <oklopol> because i'm a lunatic, as you should know.
16:51:21 <ais523> ehird: yes, but also 0 network capability
16:51:25 <ais523> without third-party software
16:51:38 <ais523> so you can put anything you like in the network cable, it'll just go la la la I can't hear you
16:51:43 <ehird> you're using a virtual machine
16:51:48 <ehird> you have physical access
16:52:29 <oklopol> outside = via network, usually
16:53:28 <oklopol> but anyway, the problem with rootquest is while it's simple to implement, it might take a while to make a virtual os in python, and i don't really have any tie
16:53:36 <oklopol> it's just i have tons of ideas for loopholes!
16:53:45 <ehird> CL-USER> (defun range (start end)
16:53:46 <ehird> (loop for i from start below end collect i))
16:53:51 <ehird> that is so un lisp.
16:54:01 <oklopol> they are cunning, although admittedly the coolest holes are stolen from actual systems
16:54:52 <oklopol> yes it's not the prettiest thingy
16:55:19 <ehird> I want acooke to release his malbolge geneticizer
16:56:02 <ehird> http://www.acooke.org/ that's one dense home page
16:56:56 <oklopol> that's how it should be done, when you add content, just find a way to fit it on the same page
16:56:56 <ehird> ps. [note added later] i deleted the lisp code when updating the OS on my computer. before that i had generated a properly punctuated "Hello world", but never saved the code. so i guess this will remain the only non-trivial malbolge program....
16:57:21 <ehird> oklopol: ps you should remap [ to (, ] to ) and vise-versa, it's awesome
16:57:29 <ehird> three tap smilies. lisp.
16:57:36 <oklopol> will remain the only non-trivial malbolge program?
16:57:59 <ehird> that was written in like 2003 dood
16:58:06 <ehird> before anyone else wrote a program in malbolge
16:58:16 <ehird> oklopol: you know how typing [ and ] is one keypress
16:58:19 <ehird> but ( and ) need shift?
16:58:22 <oklopol> yeah i know, well i guess i didn't, but you know i know now that you told me.
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16:58:46 <ehird> i'm assuming qwerty here. you probably use FINNVAK or something
16:59:02 <oklopol> [ and ] need shift too. do realize our virtual mouths have a different tooth structure
16:59:20 <ehird> what doesn't need shit i mean shift
16:59:28 <oklopol> they don't need shift in my palmtop
16:59:57 <ehird> your life must sck :[
16:59:58 <oklopol> those i can get without shifting
17:00:05 <ehird> I have to get used to this
17:00:14 <ehird> oklopol: i guess > = shift-<?
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17:01:39 <ehird> i love how SLIME does an animation when you start itu p
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17:11:47 <ehird> oklopol: is oklotalk dead? you seem to like j more now
17:12:32 <oklopol> yes j replaced it completely, sorry, it's gone.
17:13:07 <ehird> oklopol: are you sure :<
17:13:21 <ehird> CL-USER> (setq googolplex (expt 10 googol))
17:13:31 <oklopol> why won't my grades come to me
17:14:01 <oklopol> i have five grades pending atm
17:14:29 <ehird> j kind of has an infinity fetish
17:14:33 <ehird> oklopol: j's integers are bounded yknow
17:14:35 <ehird> it doesn't have bignums
17:14:39 <ehird> did you know that?
17:14:54 <ehird> oklopol: enter 9999999999999(lots of 9s here)
17:15:02 <oklopol> i just didn't, like, understand it
17:15:10 <oklopol> i mean 10^10^100=inf already says that
17:15:14 <ehird> was it too traumatic :<
17:15:44 <ehird> oklopol: oklotalk back on the cards again? :D
17:16:00 <oklopol> yeah, i put it back on my todo list just now
17:16:29 <oklopol> but, time to prove my algebra is boolean now
17:16:48 <oklopol> (:|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||)
17:19:02 <ehird> ais523: do you like lisp?
17:19:05 <ehird> common lisp that is
17:19:18 <ais523> it depends on what you mean by "like"
17:19:21 <ais523> I'm highly impressed by it
17:19:38 <ais523> I think it was an excellent idea
17:19:41 <ais523> and a great language at the time
17:19:52 <ais523> I also think that nowadays, various lisp-based languages have overtaken the original
17:19:58 <ais523> still a great idea, though
17:20:01 <ehird> also, common lisp was circa 1980s FYI
17:20:16 <ehird> so you think lisp derivatives > lisp?
17:20:24 <ais523> but some of them are better
17:20:46 <ais523> well, technically prolog is a lisp derivative
17:20:57 <ehird> you think prolog is better than lisp?
17:21:08 <ais523> and most functional languages were at least inspired by Lisp
17:21:13 <ehird> WOO HOO LEOPARD DOWNLOADED
17:21:23 <ais523> I think Haskell was indirectly inspired by it, for instance, even though they aren't all that similar
17:22:10 <ehird> via Miranda via ML via ISWIM
17:22:14 <ehird> and none of them actually were based on lisp
17:22:16 <ehird> just in the same genre
17:22:23 <ehird> in conclusion, haskell has almost nothing to do with lisp
17:22:38 <ais523> well, many of them would never have been come up with if their authors hadn't seen lisp
17:22:52 <ais523> I mean, even Underload was inspired by Lisp to some extent
17:29:00 <ais523> I would be so amused if Apple were set on by animal rights activists who missed the fact that the version names were just codenames
17:29:17 <ehird> "New Leopard mac!"
17:29:19 <ehird> "omg fur is murder"
17:34:27 <ehird> CL-USER> (defun calculate-epsilon (&optional (current 1.0))
17:34:27 <ehird> (if (= (+ 1.0 (/ current 2.0)) 1.0)
17:34:31 <ehird> (calculate-epsilon (/ current 2.0))))
17:34:35 <ehird> CL-USER> (calculate-epsilon)
17:34:39 <ehird> CL-USER> (format t "~f" (calculate-epsilon))
17:35:18 <ais523> ah, keep halving a number x until 1+x is indistinguishable from 1
17:36:08 <ehird> the floating point machine epsilon
17:36:16 <ehird> i.e. "smallest number greater than zero"
17:36:31 <ehird> since comparisons are handled differently
17:36:43 <ais523> no, it's the smallest number that makes a difference to 1
17:36:50 <ais523> the smallest number that makes a difference to 10 is 10 times as large
17:36:57 <ais523> due to the way floating-point works
17:37:02 <ehird> floating point is weird-ass
17:37:19 <ehird> I'd never use it for anything serious tbh
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18:13:54 <ehird> See you guys post upgrade
18:14:05 <ais523> I hope it goes more smoothly than my average upgrade
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18:51:26 <ehird> Ran in to some trouble, :[
18:51:32 <ehird> Let's try that again...
18:54:41 <ehird> ais523: It displayed a warning sign on my tiger drive and said I had to reformat the drive so it could boot from it before installation.
18:54:47 <ehird> Except it was already in the right format.
18:55:03 <ehird> So now I'll ask #macosx wtf happened.
18:59:09 <ehird> ugh, #macosx is so irritating
18:59:17 <ehird> people just talk about boring life crap and ignore all questions
18:59:24 <ehird> get a fucking social channel
18:59:33 <ais523> hmm... my computer's busy updating dpkg, it always amuses me when that happens
19:00:21 <MizardX> 1.1920929e-7 corresponds with 23 bit mantissa. (+ 8 bit exponent and 1 bit sign = 32 bit IEEE float)
19:02:10 <ehird> <#macosx> Blah blah blah fires in australia fires in australia fires in australia fires in australia fires in australia fires in australia fires in australia what's mac os x?
19:03:20 * ehird consults on Olde Wise Oracle Apple.com
19:03:40 <ehird> 0 results found for 'reformat leopard install'
19:04:10 <ehird> Only installation option may be Erase and Install <-- that, I think
19:04:21 <ehird> When installing Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard, the only available installation option may be Erase and Install. An alert may appear during installation, such as "You can not install mac os x on this volume with out changing your installation settings...".
19:04:37 <ehird> Use Disk Utility from the Leopard installation DVD to verify and repair the destination drive (choose it from the Utilities menu while started from the Leopard DVD).
19:05:39 <ehird> Let's try it anyway
19:06:42 <ehird> Bye guys breaking my machine -------->
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21:46:35 <ehirddit> All my settings and files are technically gone, but I'll fish out what I need from /Previous Systems/.
21:48:15 <ehirddit> This is nice. Okay. Better get stuff I need set up.
21:49:06 <ehirddit> Hmm, Time Machine, should set that up sometime.
21:49:19 <ehirddit> Although not backing up has worked fine for however many years I've been using computers.
21:50:32 <ehirddit> ... it thinks I live in Cardiff.
21:53:07 <ehirddit> iChat still doesn't do MSN. So, Adium download go.
21:53:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:54:40 <ehirddit> "“Adium” is an application which was downloaded from the Internet. Are you sure you want to open it?"
21:56:56 <ehirddit> Think I'll give Mail.app another try. Maybe they made it less crap.
21:57:26 <lament> It is far worse than gmail.
21:57:27 <ehirddit> oh, the middle button is at the default of open dashboard. I almost forgot how retarded that default was.
21:58:28 <lament> search is very slow with a couple thousand messages in your inbox
21:58:46 <ehirddit> ah. I mostly search the Agora/B mailboxes and they have like 7,000 messages each
22:00:48 <ais523> time machine's just a good interface to one of the tried-and-true backup methods, I think
22:01:02 <ehirddit> good interface is almost everything
22:01:02 <ais523> it's basically rsync with a less insane syntax, which is needed
22:01:14 <ehirddit> it just scans the HD every 5 minutes or so
22:01:19 <ehirddit> and transfers a diff to an external HD
22:01:27 <ehirddit> then integrates with a bunch of apps to let you drag & drop from the past
22:03:14 <ehirddit> It only took 30 minutes to install, BTW.
22:03:21 <ehirddit> The problem was I think I didn't have enough free space on the disk.
22:03:31 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:03:33 <ehirddit> So I had to expand it and then it let me install.
22:03:42 -!- comex has joined.
22:13:47 <ehirddit> Hrm, it seems all they did to Mail was make it look prettier.
22:14:37 <ehirddit> Wonder how you restore the iTunes library.
22:16:39 <ehirddit> Can't copy my music because there's not enough free space x_x
22:16:45 * ehirddit deletes the OS and crap from old system
22:26:34 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:32:13 * ehirddit fishes out textmate serial from old HD
22:42:15 <ehirddit> I can tell you're all highly interested.
22:47:09 <ehirddit> I'ma get myself a proper IRC client.
22:47:59 <kerlo> My computer has no IRC client, I believe.
22:48:10 <ais523> kerlo: does it have telnet?
22:48:11 <kerlo> Oh, it has ChatZilla, which I don't use.
22:48:18 <kerlo> Yes, it has telnet.
22:49:14 <ehirddit> Let's give Linkinus a try, maybe it's less crashy these days.
22:49:20 <ehirddit> “Linkinus” is an application which was downloaded from the Internet. Are you sure you want to open it?
22:49:32 <ehirddit> I should disable it or something.
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22:55:44 <ehird> ais523? Hellloooooo? Anyone?
22:56:14 * ais523 was wondering about staying silent to see ehird get increasingly more frantic
22:57:21 <ehird> Yes, Linkinus does seem to work much nicer on Leopard.
22:57:48 <ehird> OK, that's IM, IRC and editing sorted out.
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23:12:05 <fungot> ehird: group located on or off),
23:20:25 <fungot> comex: when a player: in any way grant legal status to that office.
23:22:35 <ehird> http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winme_b3_42.gif
23:22:41 <ehird> Click that link and you can now cry!
23:22:48 <fungot> Available: agora* alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
23:22:50 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
23:25:56 <ehird> Spaces are nice. Now I have to have 4 times as much stuff to die.
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23:33:11 <fungot> comex: http://mumble.net/campbell/ scheme/ plt/ collects/ net/ ipv4/ tcp_ecn.)
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23:44:53 <ehird> "Recently i wrote my own operating system (POPS) and reinvented the wheel invented by Bill Gates many years ago…"
23:45:54 <Slereah2> Bill Gates invented the wheel?
23:46:03 <ehird> Yes. Also, operating systems.
23:47:07 <Slereah2> Bad idea, he had it sweet with the wheel
23:47:14 <Slereah2> But now everyone blames him for windows.
23:51:02 <oklopol> maybe he's talking about crappy operating systems?
23:51:21 <oklopol> although i guess gates didn't invent those either
23:53:26 <kerlo> t klama klama klama klama klama zo si si
23:54:50 <kerlo> The final "si" erases "zo si".
23:55:18 <kerlo> Wait, I think it only erases the "si" before it.
23:55:58 <kerlo> This is the important part: in "zo si", the "si" is denatured.
23:57:11 <oklopol> in fact i just don't know how the erasers work regarding pedantic grammar treatment
23:58:57 <kerlo> After you've lexed a sentence, the first thing you do is handle zoi, and the second thing you do is handle zo.
00:04:39 <ehird> Does "Code" fall under "Documents"? I don't think so.
00:04:45 <ehird> I'm glad we agree.
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07:40:37 <oklopol> does anyone run unlambda here?
07:47:19 <oklopol> Slereah2: CAN YOU LINK ME TO A PIRRRRRRRRATED TO MOCK A MOCKINGBIRD I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT
07:54:58 <oklopol> looking at it from google, i may have misunderstood the kind of book it is.
07:56:42 <oklopol> oh, two-part book, second part cl, i see i see
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08:01:21 <MizardX> Closest torrent I find is "To kill a mockingbird", a crime drama movie from 1962.
08:02:05 <oklopol> closest i found to the book was google's version, which was the part just before combinators
08:02:55 <oklopol> of course i could probably get the same pleasure from just memorizing the combinator birds
08:03:03 <oklopol> maybe i'll do that this weekend
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10:02:26 <ais523> <Baldrson> The risk adjusted net present value of unicorns is basically 0 because the risk of their not existing is close to 1.
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13:34:14 <ehird> [13:32:49] <shortc|laptop> [07:14:53] Hey...I run a site called Rosetta Code, and I was reviewing one of the pages there. There's a strange bit of text in one of the J examples, and I can't tell if it's normal output or vandalism.
13:34:14 <ehird> [13:32:49] <shortc|laptop> [07:15:22] http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Character_code#J
13:34:24 <ehird> [13:32:49] <shortc|laptop> [07:15:57] At the bottom of the second code block, the string "cdefghijklm" looks suspiciously like someone pounding on the home row.
13:34:25 <ehird> [13:32:49] <shortc|laptop> [07:16:37] I'm almost certain it's in error, but I have a hard time reading J to be sure.
13:35:39 <ais523> and I love that, just like if someone vandalised TECO probably nobody would ever know
13:35:46 <ais523> unless it was well-commented
13:36:21 <ehird> it wsa actually the correct output :D
13:36:31 <ehird> [13:32:49] <olegfink> [07:45:14] shortc|laptop: that's not the home row, that's eleven characters starting with code 99
13:36:32 <ehird> [13:32:49] <shortc|laptop> [07:45:32] doh.
13:36:33 <ehird> [13:32:49] <shortc|laptop> [07:45:40] That's what I get for doing this stuff at 3AM.
13:36:34 <ehird> [13:32:49] <shortc|laptop> [07:45:45] Thanks for the double-check. :-)
13:36:40 <ais523> I noticed it wasn't the home row, too
13:38:54 <ehird> Uh oh, I crashed Safari...
13:39:08 <ehird> Well, it was on Gmail.
13:39:20 <ehird> Probably I triggered some weird JS codepath that made it busy-loop.
13:39:43 <ehird> Gmail saved my draft, anyway/
13:43:50 <ehird> Hmm. I hope Time Machine compresses backups.
13:44:05 <ehird> Even with a 1TB backup drive, I have like 150GB of stuff on here.
13:44:22 <ehird> ais523, btw I realised it wasn't basically a rsync frontend
13:44:29 <ehird> because rsync can't both do --update and also store the old version
13:44:38 <ehird> i.e., it can't just store what's changed in a new section
13:44:47 <ehird> (with, I presume, occasional full snapshots)
13:44:53 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure that there's at least one common open source backup program that can, I forget which one
13:45:10 <ehird> yes, almost certainly, it's a rather obvious idea
13:48:17 <ehird> one silly gripe: the 3d dock is inaccurate, from a physics point of view, and it breaks the perspective guidelines (how is the preview two-photos icon standing by a corner of the photo?)
13:48:18 <ehird> http://turbomilk.com/blog/cookbook/criticism/physics_still_matter_even_with_special_effects/
13:48:39 <ehird> to get it right you'd need variations of every icon for (position in dock, length of dock)
13:51:41 <ais523> nah, you just need 3D icons
13:51:53 <ais523> then you can project them to the right perspective
13:52:10 <ehird> but I think I prefer the infinite pngs
13:52:18 <ehird> maybe run a program with that tuple as the argument
13:52:21 <ehird> and make it output a png
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13:54:45 <ehird> DNS over HTTP over UDP.
13:55:32 <ais523> come to think of it, that's as stupid as BGP over TCP
13:56:19 <ehird> ais523: because HTTP solves every problem, including finding the IP of a domain to contact it over HTTP.
13:56:47 <ais523> also, who even suggested that? and why?
13:56:56 <ehird> I did. And because my brain is currently in wtf mode.
13:57:08 <ais523> you should look up BGP, some time
13:57:23 <ais523> it's a routing protocol designed to be politically inoffensive rather than good
13:57:57 <ais523> basically, it's designed to make sure traffic gets from one bit of the internet to another despite the various networks en route all disagreeing about which way the packet should go
13:58:35 <ehird> ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ sudo rm -r scripts
13:58:36 <ehird> rm: cannot remove directory `scripts': Device or resource busy
13:58:51 <ehird> (I'm removing bsmnt_bot because I'm too lazy to get it working without reconnecting and meh)
13:58:52 <ais523> ehird: is something cded into that directory?
13:59:08 <ais523> daemons are supposed to cd / for that reason
13:59:27 <ehird> not that I can tell though
13:59:32 <ehird> how can I --really-force
13:59:45 <ais523> kill the process that's in that directory
13:59:53 <ehird> i don't know which
13:59:58 <ais523> there's some easy way to find out
14:00:04 <ais523> lsof | grep would work, probably
14:00:14 <ehird> i _could_ install it :P
14:00:18 <ais523> how do you not have lsof?
14:00:28 <ehird> this is a base server install, it doesn't even have man(1)
14:00:44 <ehird> (I'm pretty sure that violates POSIX)
14:00:52 <ais523> ls -l /proc/*/cwd | grep
14:00:54 <ehird> ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ lsof | grep scripts
14:00:54 <ehird> ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$
14:01:33 <ehird> also, you mean cat
14:01:43 <ais523> nope, cwd is a symlink
14:01:51 <ais523> so you have to dereference it somehow
14:02:15 <ais523> you probably don't have readlink due to being on a server, so you either need the cd pwd trick in a loop, or ls
14:02:39 <ehird> "Time Machine saves the hourly backups for the past 24 hours, daily backups for the past month, and weekly backups for everything older than a month."
14:02:44 <ehird> hmm, I thought it stored backups forever
14:02:57 <ais523> it does, just not all of them
14:03:31 <ais523> did the proc/*/cwd trick help?
14:03:36 <ehird> no, I pasted the lsof output
14:03:42 <ehird> [14:00:53] <ehird> ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ lsof | grep scripts
14:03:42 <ehird> [14:00:53] <ehird> ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$
14:03:51 <ais523> oh, you need to sudo it if it's running as a different user
14:03:54 <ehird> "Time Machine creates links to any unchanged files, so when you travel back in time you see the entire contents of your Mac on a given day." <- cute trick
14:04:05 <ais523> yep, hardlink backups have been around for ages
14:04:32 <ehird> ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ sudo lsof | grep scripts
14:04:32 <ehird> ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$
14:05:07 <ehird> Backing up to a full disk.
14:05:18 <ehird> One day, no matter how large your backup drive is, it will run out of space. And Time Machine has an action plan. It alerts you that it will start deleting previous backups, oldest first. Before it deletes any backup, Time Machine copies files that might be needed to fully restore your disk for every remaining backup. (Moral of the story: The larger the drive, the farther back in time you can back up.)
14:05:19 <ehird> Non-reality distortion field translation:
14:05:29 <ehird> "We will threaten you with destroying your backups so you quickly buy a new drive."
14:06:01 <ais523> well, it has to do /something/ when you run out of backup space
14:06:17 <ais523> the Windows solution is to delete all but the most recent backup, which is not very encouraging
14:07:08 <ehird> i'd make it pop up going "Your backup drive is full. Delete some backups or get a new drive or something. Meanwhile I'll sit here doing nothing."
14:07:27 <ais523> but then you wouldn't have your backups every hour
14:07:48 <ehird> buy a new harddrive within an hour :P
14:08:11 <ehird> I'm kind of a rabid archivist so I guess it doesn't make sense for others.
14:08:35 <ehird> Still, with a 1TB external drive I think it'd take me rather a while to fill that up...
14:09:04 * ehird reboots rutian to see if the scripts dire
14:09:09 <ehird> ctory will be deletable
14:09:22 <ehird> [14:09:04] • ehird reboots rutian to see if the scripts dire
14:09:22 <ehird> [14:09:08] <ehird> ctory will be deletable
14:09:28 <ais523> also, you could always try moving the directory into /tmp
14:09:32 <ehird> the scripts folder is rather weird
14:09:33 <ehird> ehird@rutian:/home/bsmnt/python_chroot/bot$ ls -lh
14:09:33 <ehird> drwxrwxrwx 2 1343 root 1.0K Feb 12 13:57 scripts
14:09:46 <ehird> mv: cannot move `scripts' to `/tmp/scripts': Device or resource busy
14:09:58 <ehird> drwxrwxrwx 2 1343 root 1.0K Feb 12 13:57 .
14:09:58 <ehird> dr-xr-xr-x 3 1001 1001 4.0K Feb 12 13:57 ..
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14:12:17 <ais523> I wonder what's happening to ehird?
14:13:22 -!- ehird has joined.
14:14:02 <ais523> ah, your rebooting messed the bounder?
14:14:40 <ehird> the bouncer runs on the server
14:14:47 <ais523> and I thought you were rebooting the eserver
14:15:04 <ais523> <-- ehird has left this server ("Caught sigterm, terminating...").
14:15:12 <ais523> that's the message your bouncer gives when someone sigterms it
14:15:15 <ehird> must have repeated a kill line from the history
14:15:21 <ehird> (ctrl-r by mistake)
14:15:27 <ehird> or it may hvae crashed
14:39:04 <ehird> ... Time Machine will version my .git directories. That will be ... interesting.
14:41:20 <ehird> Gah, I need zsh. Can't take bash any longer.
14:41:31 <ehird> MacPorts or manual compile ... MacPorts.
14:41:37 <ais523> you should be proficient with a range of shells, ideally
14:41:44 <ais523> even csh, in case you're stuck using it
14:42:05 <ehird> I can use bash, I just don't _want_ to
14:42:10 <ehird> Can't use csh though, thank god.
14:42:26 <ais523> the CDE computers here are tcsh by default
14:42:46 <ehird> I wonder how long it took to make the Stacks in the dock fold out line the leaning tower of pisa
14:44:04 <ais523> probably not all that long
14:44:57 <ehird> Can't map the URL 'file://.' to a port description file ("Could not find Portfile in /Users/ehird").
14:45:08 <ehird> oh, I need to sync. I think.
14:45:45 <ehird> MacPorts is written in Tcl./
14:47:10 <ehird> configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
14:47:15 <ehird> Ah. Methinks I need the developer tools.
14:50:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no, I don't have a C compiler
14:50:56 <ehird> was scripts mounted?
14:51:00 <ehird> that would explain it
14:51:40 <ehird> i knew it was a weird directory :P
14:54:19 <ehird> this disc doesn't have the developer tools
14:54:25 * ehird trudges off to get it from adc
14:54:38 <ais523> is it a legitimate disk?
14:54:50 <ehird> no, but the problem is that it's disc 1, the install disc
14:55:00 <ehird> instead of disc 2, the Things You Need To Actually Be Able To Use This disc.
14:55:56 <ehird> there we go, downloading
14:56:05 <ehird> holy carp it's 996MB.
14:56:12 <ehird> why isn't this bundled with the os. geez.
14:56:13 <ais523> that won't fit on a CD
14:56:53 <ehird> ais523: OS X install disc = dual-layer DVD
14:57:09 <ehird> iirc it's about 7.5 GB used out of 8.5
14:57:31 <ehird> http://tunes.org/legalese/bugroff.html <--this is even better than the WTFPL
14:58:38 <ehird> although the "all lawyers suck" sentiment is stupid.
15:07:13 <ehird> ais523: you've used OCaml, right?
15:07:33 <ais523> yes, I'm doing a uni project with it atm
15:12:09 <ehird> ais523: is it as crap as they say
15:12:18 <ais523> it has various troubles
15:12:25 <ais523> the most annoying is the lack of any sort of operator overloading
15:12:43 <ais523> in Perl, you have eq that's different from ==
15:12:48 <ais523> for comparing strings vs. numbers
15:12:54 <ais523> that's fine, you need it as it's weakly typed
15:13:03 <ais523> in C, you have / for int vs. / for float
15:13:08 <ais523> which is also fine, as it's strongly typed
15:13:08 <ehird> ocaml has no typeclasses right?
15:13:15 <ais523> OCaml is strongly typed (without typeclasses)
15:13:15 <ehird> that's why you pay homeage to slashdot all the time
15:13:24 <ehird> yeah that's really stupid
15:13:25 <ais523> yet it requires a different operator for everything, it seems
15:13:28 <ais523> and normally a cast too
15:13:41 <ehird> also, it's strictly evaluated and non-pure.
15:13:47 <ehird> which is also kinda stupid for a functional language.
15:13:53 <ais523> it's an imperative language too
15:13:59 <ehird> and an OOP language
15:14:02 <ais523> it's specifically designed to be both imperative and functional
15:14:07 <ais523> the OOPness I haven't learnt
15:14:15 <ais523> so although I'm writing OCaml, I'm only really using Caml
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15:15:02 <ehird> ais523: function arguments are evaluated right to left
15:15:07 <ehird> because it's efficient for stack usage
15:15:13 <ehird> that's just awful in an imperative language...
15:15:18 <ais523> I try not to rely on any order of evaluation
15:15:25 <ais523> except the fact that a;b runs a before b
15:15:30 <ais523> it's less confusing that way
15:15:42 <ehird> I'll stick to Common Lisp for my functional/imperative mix.
15:18:16 <ehird> ais523: is ocaml as fast as claimed?
15:18:40 <ais523> I'm doing all sorts of ridiculous things that should be slow
15:18:56 <ais523> but they're running so quickly I can't tell how fast they're running
15:19:05 <ais523> and like solving a maze by random walk
15:19:11 <ais523> (or the programming equivalent)
15:19:14 <ehird> what's the project?
15:19:22 <ais523> compiling imperative languages into hardware
15:19:34 <ais523> which has basically become compiling functional languages with some weird restrictions into hardware
15:19:58 <ehird> ais523: what lang are you compiling? You've mentioned it, care to show e.g. factorial function?
15:20:18 <ais523> well, it's a functional lang with no recursion
15:20:23 <ais523> there are restrictions to make it turing-incomplete
15:20:33 <ehird> ais523: so presumably you need to do an imperative loop for factorial
15:20:34 <ais523> you have imperative loops instead, which are converted into tail-recursion
15:20:45 <ehird> so what does factorial look like?
15:20:49 <ais523> also, I'm working mostly on the intermediate representation
15:20:56 <ais523> so I'd have to look up what the syntax for a loop is
15:21:01 <ais523> in the original source
15:21:07 <ehird> is it basically just:
15:22:01 <ehird> fun fact(n : integer) : integer; i = 1; loop (n != 0) with (n = n - 1); i *= n; end; end?
15:22:06 <ehird> i.e. nothing special
15:22:27 <ehird> what computational c lass is it?
15:22:44 <ehird> is that the most powerful sub-TC level?
15:22:54 <ehird> ah, is such a concept undefined?
15:22:56 <ais523> it's equivalent to finite-state-machine, which is one of the lowest
15:23:11 <ais523> but it means, in practice, "something which would be TC except it doesn't have infinite memory"
15:23:22 <ehird> I'm interested in nearly-TC languages, specifically, total functional programming languages
15:23:33 <ehird> you know how in FP langs, all values are actually (value or _|_)?
15:23:36 <ehird> where _|_ = bottom
15:23:44 <ehird> x = error "nooooo"
15:23:57 <ehird> func "a value its pattern matching doesnt handle"
15:24:00 <ais523> I'm not really aware of how fixed-point languages work
15:24:07 <ehird> functional programming
15:24:22 <ehird> anyway, a total FP language is one without _|_
15:24:41 <ehird> all pattern matches must be complete, every program halts, and there are no errors apart from with types like (Either Error Result)
15:24:55 <ais523> the one I'm working with is one of those, apart from the every program halts bit
15:25:03 <ehird> I've read a paper which suggests to me that you can actually make such a language useful for most tasks
15:25:09 <ais523> if a program doesn't halt, it's in an infiniloop so there's no way to tell what its return value is
15:25:23 <ehird> what i'm thinking about is making a combinator base like ski
15:25:27 <ehird> except that you can only write total programs in
15:25:28 <ais523> also, I love the way that all the data types are syntactic sugar for multiple booleans
15:25:38 <ehird> that is, the machine code for a total FP lang
15:25:40 <ais523> and that would be neat
15:25:51 <ais523> hmm... are total FP langs necessarily reversible?
15:26:05 <ehird> bam, irreversable function
15:26:21 <ehird> although reversibility IS a nice property,
15:26:27 <ehird> I'm not sure total FP + reversability would be useful at all
15:26:34 <ais523> make a functional lang that compiles into BackFlip
15:26:43 <ais523> just for the fun of it
15:26:52 <ehird> can I just gnaw on my toenails instead? that'd be less painful :P
15:27:10 <ehird> something non-2d would be easier :P
15:27:30 <ais523> which has been proved to be compilable into backflip
15:27:35 <ais523> and which is actually quite fun to write
15:28:03 <ais523> <masklinn> One of the worst parts in XSLT is its verbosity (it's a dysfunctional purely functional language, yet building the structure for a recursive function that takes a single argument and doesn't do anything takes like 8 lines)
15:28:29 <ehird> ok, Unassignable looks pretty usable
15:28:42 <ais523> it's the only reversible guaranteed-termination OO lang I know of
15:28:51 <ehird> Error: Target org.macports.activate returned: Image error: /opt/local/bin/zsh is being used by the active zsh-devel port. Please deactivate this port first, or use the -f flag to force the activation.
15:28:58 <ehird> fuck on earthhhhhhhhhhhh
15:29:03 <ehird> Archive and Install is so crap
15:29:06 <ehird> it doesn't delete everything properly
15:29:09 <ehird> it thinks I have stuff installed
15:29:11 <ais523> ehird: where else would you expect to fuck?
15:29:28 <ehird> also, fuck on earth = wtf x 1000
15:29:46 <ehird> bournemouth:~ ehird$ sudo rm -rf /opt
15:30:39 <ehird> sure is taking a while
15:30:48 <ais523> hmm... I'm not the sort of person who'd do something like that, I don't think
15:31:04 <ais523> I would find it really amusing if rm was in /opt. or sudo was.
15:31:10 <ais523> although that's unlikely
15:31:16 <ehird> ais523: archive and install is meant to move the whole system to /Previous Systems/, then install a clean one
15:31:23 <ehird> unfortunately, it didn't handle macports.
15:31:32 <ehird> so it's kind of confused about what it has.
15:33:12 * ehird tells finder to calculate the size of /opt/local
15:33:17 <ehird> it's taking a while to rm...
15:33:24 <ais523> 0, obviously, you're deleting it
15:33:34 <ais523> also why not delete /opt/local not /opt?
15:33:34 <ehird> it's in the middle of deleting it
15:33:44 <ehird> because /opt only contains local/
15:33:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:34:02 <ehird> a lot of my installed ports are worthless anyway
15:34:08 <ehird> e.g., ruby and python now come with the os
15:36:27 <ehird> "Installing this software requires no additional space"
15:37:05 <Slereah> It is exactly 0 byte long.
15:38:23 <ehird> No ports are installed.
15:45:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:47:25 <ehird> ais523: I'm going to write a factorial program in Unassignable.
15:47:36 <ehird> it is possible, right?
15:47:45 <ais523> that binary-to-decimal took me long enough, though
15:47:55 <ehird> I'll just output in unary
15:48:06 <ehird> using your program as the base
15:48:15 <ais523> it's not output that's the problem, I suspect, it's the multiplication
15:48:22 <ehird> err, why is mainloop an integer?
15:48:23 <ais523> trying to reset state afterwards could be fun
15:48:36 <ais523> loops can only exist as methods on integers
15:48:39 <ais523> "loop this many times"
15:48:47 <ais523> and you can't change the integer during the loop
15:49:01 <ais523> the general rule is that if you're inside a method of an object, you can't change, or even mention, the object itself
15:49:07 <ais523> because that would be recursion, and that would be wrong
15:49:12 <ehird> (X must be a power of 2).
15:49:15 <ehird> ok, that_is_ an issue
15:49:24 <ais523> you can work around it
15:49:35 <ais523> there's a pair of variables in my binary-to-decimal which simulate an x of 10
15:49:45 <ais523> basically, you have two variables, one the power below, one the power above
15:49:47 <ehird> which binary to decimal
15:49:54 <ais523> ehird: it's the only example program I give
15:49:57 <ais523> a counter which outputs in decimal
15:50:01 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Unassignable
15:50:05 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unassignable#Example
15:50:19 <ais523> ah, the one on the talk page
15:50:24 <ais523> the other one's probably a syntax example
15:50:48 <ehird> ais523: can X be a variable in increment(X)?
15:51:01 <ais523> it has to be a constant power of 2
15:51:09 <ais523> although increment(1); increment(8); is legal
15:51:13 <ais523> and a trivial way to increment by 9
15:51:17 <ehird> ah, I've figured out how to do it
15:51:30 <ehird> then that iterates othernum->increment(1)
15:51:53 <ais523> incidentally, if you need multiple iterators on a single integer, and you normally do
15:52:04 <ais523> get its iterator to call lots of functions, and disable all but the one you need
15:52:20 <ais523> I should make a sugared version of Unassignable some day
15:52:36 <ehird> integer factorial(4294967295)=4294967295;
15:52:43 <ehird> and it calls a special object that just deactivates it
15:53:02 <ehird> factorialkiller->doyourthin
15:53:05 <ehird> and factorialkiller does
15:53:10 <ehird> factorial->deactivate
15:53:14 <ais523> er... that's recursion
15:53:35 <ehird> well, that's okay, n! only iterates n times
15:53:39 <ais523> the iterator, say, is three functions, a, b, and c
15:53:59 <ehird> integer factorial(6)=6;
15:53:59 <ehird> integer factorial(6)=6;
15:54:00 <ais523> wait, two will do, a and b
15:54:07 <ais523> initially, a's active and b's inactive
15:54:11 <ais523> a can break by activating b
15:54:23 <ais523> and b increments a counter that's initially -1, and deactivates a on overflow
15:54:39 <ais523> you can't activate an inactive function, or deactivate an active function, because that breaks reversibility
15:56:09 <ehird> ais523: can any function take non-constant args?
15:56:10 <ehird> result->multiply(num);
15:56:24 <ais523> no, all args are constants
15:56:33 <ais523> you can use global variables to pass args
15:56:56 <ais523> due to no-recursion, you don't have scoping problems if you name the args after the functions
15:58:14 <ehird> multiplication is hard :<
15:58:21 <ehird> in unassignable that is :P
15:58:29 <ehird> since you can't really loop over two v- except...
15:58:32 <ais523> even addition is non-trivial
15:58:50 <ais523> so I suppose you could just do a += b in a loop
15:59:00 <ais523> you probably want to do a -= b in a loop afterwards to reset a
15:59:21 <ehird> a += b is trivial?
15:59:32 <ais523> loop on b, incrementing a
15:59:41 <ehird> yeah but you can't loop that
15:59:47 <ehird> and a = b is also a pain
15:59:52 <ehird> because we're doing multiple iterators
15:59:54 <ehird> andf sjfhdksfhkdfjhsdkfshfkjdf
15:59:59 <ais523> reversible lang, remember
16:02:01 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:02:58 <ais523> it's not an easy language
16:03:20 <ehird> ok, I've got this program working:
16:03:32 <ehird> is there an interp?
16:07:48 <ehird> Copied old '~/.zshrc' to '~/.zshrc.zni'.
16:07:48 <ehird> *** Internal error: bad type for keymap ***
16:07:48 <ehird> --- Type a key in forlorn hope ---
16:08:13 <ais523> ehird: I have a compiler to C++
16:08:19 <ais523> but it doesn't enforce the no-recursion rule
16:08:38 <ais523> I think I know where it is
16:10:27 <ais523> it seems to be in two parts, a .c file which is the compiler in C, and a .h file which is the header for generated files in C++
16:11:00 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/hpckp/una2cpp.tgz
16:11:31 <Sgeo> Post that URL to the wiki?
16:11:52 <ais523> it'll vanish in a few hours
16:12:02 <ehird> filebin links generally persist
16:12:04 <ais523> it's a temporary pastebin
16:12:05 <ehird> ooh, I have bsd ls(1)
16:12:19 <ais523> "Files will be kept in a rotating pool of space, and may be removed at any time."
16:12:25 <ehird> ais523: yes, it's not actually true
16:12:28 <ehird> I've never had a filebin link expire
16:12:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:12:32 <ais523> so they persist until someone else pastest something big, I guess
16:13:00 <oerjan> beware of what thou pastest
16:13:47 <ehird> /Users/ehird/Code/esolangs/unassignable/una2cpp
16:14:21 <ehird> Integer has invalid maximum.
16:14:24 <ais523> including a complete source tree for all the packages in a uclinux distro which is about 6 directories below my home
16:14:25 <ehird> the max is 4294967295
16:14:30 <ehird> needs to be 4294967294
16:14:37 <ais523> no, the first value is probably correct
16:14:43 <ais523> my guess is I wrote int rather than unsigned
16:14:44 <ehird> then whydit complain
16:15:04 <ais523> it was a quick hack, as you can tell by the state of una2cpp.h
16:15:07 <ehird> if(fscanf(in,"%lu",&templu)!=1)
16:15:07 <ehird> fprintf(stderr,"Integer maximum is not a number.\n");
16:15:07 <ehird> return EXIT_FAILURE;
16:15:31 <ais523> ehird: that's not the error you're getting
16:15:44 <ais523> and fscanf returns 1 if it inputs 1 input value, so it's a correct check
16:15:52 <ehird> case 4294967295LU: break;
16:15:52 <ehird> fprintf(stderr,"Integer has invalid maximum.\n");
16:16:09 <ehird> so it should work...
16:16:18 <ehird> function main=activated;
16:16:18 <ehird> integer a(4294967295)=5;
16:16:18 <ehird> integer multiply(5)=5;
16:16:22 <ehird> that'sthe whole declaration section
16:16:32 <ais523> it's the 5 that's invalid
16:16:50 <ais523> look at tenloop in my Talk:Unassignable program, though
16:16:56 <ais523> that shows how to do an integer with a different maximum
16:17:03 <ais523> basically, to get an int from 0 to 9
16:17:12 <ais523> I had an int from 0 to 8 and an int from 0 to 16
16:17:16 <ehird> the maximum can be anything
16:17:19 <ehird> I just set it to 5
16:17:28 <ais523> integer b(7)=5; is legal
16:17:40 <ehird> b and multiply never change
16:18:11 <ehird> #define CURCLASS void unatmain::
16:18:18 <ehird> that is not valid C, surely
16:18:28 <ais523> look at the other #defines
16:18:36 <ais523> it becomes valid C++ once you apply all of them
16:18:36 <ehird> I think I'll avoid that :P
16:18:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot").
16:19:14 <ehird> multiply.cpp:14: warning: this decimal constant is unsigned only in ISO C90
16:19:28 <ehird> multiplication doesn't work
16:19:36 <ehird> ais523: does the loop loop for the maximum
16:19:49 <ais523> but you mustn't change the value during the loop, or even mention it
16:19:58 <ehird> My program tells me 5 * 5 = 30
16:19:58 <ais523> paste your program, so I can see what's wrong with it?
16:20:08 <FireFly> [17:13:49] <ehird> longest path evar <-- I've seen longer, it's called Windows
16:20:17 <ais523> my guess is you started with 5, then added 5 to it 5 times
16:20:25 <ehird> ais523: http://pastie.org/private/vvvlhnwhslor4idpdepaow
16:20:27 <ais523> whereas you need to start with 0 for that to work
16:20:58 <ehird> that makes things a lot more compliated, then
16:21:11 <ais523> the real trouble in unassignable is resetting variables once you're done with them
16:21:20 <ais523> you often have to write large parts of your program in reverse
16:23:33 <ehird> calculates 100 * 576 = 57600
16:23:41 <ehird> now I can write factorial
16:23:46 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:23:53 <ehird> http://pastie.org/private/e0z6t3a9k0npupa2nk4lbq
16:24:04 <ehird> it doesn't check limits
16:24:10 <ehird> you can fix them :P
16:24:28 * ehird just sets all limits to 4294967295
16:25:03 <ais523> as for factorial, note you aren't allowed to iterate on b whilst multiplying by b
16:25:19 <ais523> the easy solution here is just to get the variable you're iterating on to increase a separate loop counter
16:29:14 -!- Hiato has joined.
16:31:26 <ehird> gah, my delete key is ^? but zsh wants %H
16:31:47 <ehird> no, you use zsh keybindings
16:32:04 <ehird> factorial.cpp: In member function ‘virtual void unatmain::erun()’:
16:32:04 <ehird> factorial.cpp:38: error: ‘class unatfactorial’ has no member named ‘fcall’
16:32:08 <ais523> well, it depends on what delete key you want for stdio, I suppose
16:32:28 <ehird> ... 6! = 21, apparently.
16:33:07 <ais523> I should make an unassignable compiler that enforces the restrictions, really
16:33:35 <ehird> wait, why on earth is it = 21...
16:34:49 <ehird> lol, it's addorial
16:36:58 * oerjan beats ehird with a triangle |>
16:37:03 <ehird> ^H does backwards delete
16:37:06 <ehird> what's forward delete?
16:37:36 <ehird> "^H" backward-delete-char
16:37:36 <ehird> "^?" backward-delete-char
16:37:53 <ehird> my terminal sends \033[3~
16:37:56 <ehird> so I guess I'll bind that
16:41:16 <oklopol> what's the commotion that composes this day?
16:41:26 <ais523> oklopol: ehird upgrading his OS
16:41:55 <ehird> I miss my old prompt.
16:41:59 <ehird> Even though it was unreadabl.
16:42:16 <ais523> anyway, why aren't all your settings saved in dot files in ~?
16:42:18 <ehird> oklopol: past tense
16:42:26 <ehird> ais523: they are, the system was reinstalled
16:42:35 <ehird> archive + install = copy old system to special directory, do clean install
16:42:57 <ehird> /Previous Systems.localized/2009-02-11_1200/Users/ehird % cat .zshrc
16:43:11 <ais523> wouldn't it be usual to move your home dir over after doing that
16:43:40 <ehird> yes, but I have so much rubbish in my home directory that I decided to leave it and copy on need
16:44:05 <oklopol> you could always copy on write
16:44:07 <ehird> precmd() { print -Pn "\e]0;%n@%m:%~\a" }
16:44:07 <ehird> export PS1=$(print "%{\e[33m%}")"[%n:%~] %#"$(print "%{\e[0m%}")" "
16:44:19 <ehird> Yes, yellow on white is unreadable. I don't care.
16:44:48 <ehird> Prompts are for feel, not usefulness. :P
16:44:53 <oklopol> is that some kinda sh-language?
16:45:10 <ehird> PS1&precmd is the hideous baby sublanguage
16:45:14 <ehird> but I use command interpolation there too
16:45:19 <ehird> so i can print out colours
16:45:31 <oklopol> i should learn more languages.
16:46:46 <ehird> I should install SBCL.
16:47:07 <ehird> Where would my system be without a crazy lisp compiler that has tons of hacks to make it portable so you can compile it without a bunch of annoying bootstrapping?
16:47:20 <ehird> And that is really, really fast?
16:47:36 <ehird> Ooh ooh, I can get the new Carbon Emacs. Oh wait, I despise emacs.
16:47:45 <ais523> what, I thought you liked it
16:48:04 <ehird> I tolerate it because writing Lisp or Haskell with anything else is painful
16:48:04 <Deewiant> ehird: What does that precmd do?
16:48:16 <ehird> Deewiant: puts "ehird@bournemouth:~/Code" in my titlebar
16:48:19 <Deewiant> ehird: In particular, that print command.
16:48:54 * ehird looks for it in zshbuiltins
16:49:14 <ehird> I wrote this in 2007, y'see.
16:49:27 <ehird> -P Perform prompt expansion (see zshmisc(1)).
16:49:37 <ehird> so that's for the %n stuff and suchlike
16:49:43 -!- oklofok has joined.
16:49:57 <Deewiant> -p Print the arguments to the input of the coprocess.
16:50:06 <ehird> I love how the quotes in export PS1=$(print "%{\e[33m%}")"[%n:%~] %#"$(print "%{\e[0m%}")" " start half way through
16:50:15 <ehird> because you can not quote command interpolations, so I didn't
16:50:27 <ehird> as in you can and you can also opt not to
16:51:49 <ehird> carbbon emacs is from a japanese server and the server is so slooooow
16:52:24 <Deewiant> It's probably fairly fast, it's the wires that're slow :-P
16:53:11 <ehird> I want wireless wires.
16:54:02 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
16:54:12 <ehird> not only is it freaking cool, on account of using lasers, it is infinitely fast.
16:54:26 <ehird> because the lasers are actually light. and the computers are -1 miles apart from each other.
16:54:33 <ehird> this is done by bending spacetime.
16:56:25 <oklofok> ^ this here sounds very very good.
16:56:56 <Slereah> Lasers aren't infinitely fast, ehird
16:57:04 <ais523> Slereah: they are if they go BACKWARDS!
16:57:06 <ehird> They are if you bend space time, moron.
16:57:26 <ehird> They go both backwards _and_ bend space time.
16:57:48 <ehird> You're just afraid of new science.
16:57:52 <ehird> Afraid... of WHAT LIES AHEAD.
16:58:13 <ehird> the physicist is a lameo.
16:58:29 <ehird> we can just bend spacetime so that lasers shoot out lasers that are infinitely fast.
17:00:33 <ehird> zsh: command not found: git
17:00:36 <ehird> DSHJSDFkJShdfkjsdhfkjsdfhsdf WHAAAAAAT
17:00:45 <ais523> yay for working package managers
17:00:54 <ehird> my package manager works fine
17:00:57 <ehird> I just haven't installed git
17:01:22 <ehird> i was just assuming this computer was absolutely perfect out of the box
17:01:26 <ehird> because I mean why wouldn't it be
17:03:22 <ehird> emacs is 145mb that's just not right.
17:03:27 <ehird> an editor has no right to be that big :|
17:09:31 <ehird> Too many things depend on other things.
17:10:42 -!- Slereah has left (?).
17:10:52 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:13:27 <ehird> oklofok: will oklotalk handle the euler identity?
17:13:46 <ais523> ehird: Mathematica's probably got a command for solving the euler identity, by the way
17:14:04 <ehird> ais523: I tried doing N[(equation here)] but it just made e and pi into numbers
17:14:05 <ais523> you have to use things like Reduce[] or Solve[] or that sort of thing to manipulate expressions into different forms
17:14:14 <ais523> N is just a numerical approximator
17:14:23 <ehird> right, so it should numerically approximate the euler identity
17:14:24 <ais523> you need a symbolic manipulator to solve that identity
17:14:35 <ehird> mathematica is weird ass
17:14:37 <ais523> because Mathematica operators don't do more than they're designed to do
17:15:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Noise unbearable").
17:16:07 <oklofok> ehird: dunno. i'm a fairly discrete dude.
17:16:16 <ehird> is discrete your middle name.
17:16:36 <oklofok> oklopol discrete ominovorol
17:16:52 <ehird> [17:16:45] oklofok has userhost n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi and realname Ville Salo
17:18:06 <ehird> git relies on gettext
17:18:13 <ehird> I don't care if it's indirect, just ugh
17:18:17 <ais523> internationalisation, obviously
17:18:23 <ehird> git is english only
17:18:42 <ehird> umm, most version control systems and the like only output in english
17:18:46 <ais523> anything let anywhere near a major OSS repo tends to get translated
17:19:04 <oklofok> actually that name is just gibberish i sometimes use to confuse people; you see this one student organization requires real names to be real names, so i made up a finnish-sounding name.
17:19:31 <ehird> ais523: IMO it doesn't make sense to translate a vcs
17:19:41 <ehird> you need to know english to program in most languages
17:19:47 <ehird> yes, you can rote memorize a few keywords as meaningless
17:19:53 <ehird> but you can do that with your VCS's terminology, too
17:20:09 <ehird> e.g. Python's style guide strongly suggests that comments are in english
17:20:11 <ais523> hmm... maybe git depends on gnu coreutils?
17:20:17 <ais523> it's very heavily sh-based
17:20:21 <ais523> it may need specific utils
17:20:30 <ehird> we'll see if macports tries to install gnu coreutils
17:20:37 <ehird> (I hope not, though... I like my BSD userland)
17:20:56 <ais523> LC_ALL=fr_FR.utf8 cp --help outputs in French for me; LC_ALL=fr_FR.utf8 git --help doesn't
17:21:11 <ais523> "Copier la SOURCE vers la DESTINATION, ou de multiples SOURCES vers un RÉPERTOIRE."
17:21:19 <ehird> % LC_ALL=fr_FR.utf8 cp --help
17:21:20 <ehird> cp: illegal option -- -
17:21:20 <ehird> usage: cp [-R [-H | -L | -P]] [-fi | -n] [-pvX] source_file target_file
17:21:20 <ehird> cp [-R [-H | -L | -P]] [-fi | -n] [-pvX] source_file ... target_directory
17:21:47 <ais523> $ LC_ALL=fr_FR.utf8 gcc --help
17:21:49 <ais523> Usage: gcc [options] fichier...
17:22:03 <ehird> % LC_ALL=fr_FR.utf8 gcc --help
17:22:03 <ehird> Usage: i686-apple-darwin9-gcc-4.0.1 [options] file...
17:22:03 <ehird> -pass-exit-codes Exit with highest error code from a phase
17:22:05 <ais523> so gcc, at least, needs gettext, or at least can use it
17:22:10 <ehird> I guess Apple stripped out the translation files
17:22:24 <ais523> I like having multiple languages available
17:22:34 <ais523> you never know when you might want to give a guest account to someone chinese, for instance
17:24:00 <ehird> do not give this email address out
17:24:00 <ehird> do not CC me on any public mailing list with this address
17:24:00 <ehird> do not place this address in cleartext on any web page
17:24:12 <ehird> I am so tempted to type it in here and let clog and Google be the perps, not me...
17:24:34 <ehird> ah, it's already on the interwebs it seems
17:24:42 <ehird> http://www.nightmare.com/~rushing/new_email.html
17:24:43 <oklofok> i don't get the spammophobes, who doesn't like spam
17:24:49 <ehird> As a service to the blind, this address reads:
17:24:52 <ehird> sam@rushing.nightmare.com
17:25:34 <Deewiant> I don't get people who get hundreds of spam messages a day
17:25:52 <ehird> I get hundreds of spams a day, but I never see them apart from 1 or 2 every once in a while
17:25:56 <oklofok> i just get the ones i've requested
17:26:03 <ehird> Deewiant: register for a load of sites willy-nilly
17:26:07 <oklofok> (a seer, and some advertisement)
17:26:09 <ehird> also, post it on the interwebs in plain text regularly
17:26:13 <ehird> ----------------------> SPAM
17:26:24 <ehird> well I get more like 30 spams a day
17:26:25 <Deewiant> I've done both hundreds of times :-P
17:26:29 <ehird> if i was more popular i'd get hundreds
17:26:30 <Deewiant> And I get less than 10 per day
17:26:54 <Deewiant> Maybe my ISP just blocks known spam senders and that's where the bulk comes from
17:27:50 <ehird> gmail has, to my knowledge, never blocked a legitimate mail, and let through less than 50 spams to my inbox since 2006 when I got this account
17:27:57 <ehird> it's one great spamfilter
17:28:00 <Deewiant> gmail has blocked several legitimate mails to my account
17:28:07 <Deewiant> some bugzilla posts and some private mail
17:28:14 <ehird> Deewiant: stop purchasing viagra
17:28:38 <Deewiant> If I purchased viagra wouldn't that mean that it stops blocking viagra, rather than that it blocks something else? :-P
17:29:02 <ehird> y'see, I was implying the nature of that private mail. as a bad joke.
17:29:04 <oklofok> Deewiant: umm probably it'd block the viagra
17:29:13 <Deewiant> ehird: ah, right, didn't get it.
17:30:19 <ehird> man that's one big slipup:
17:30:48 <Deewiant> Anyhoo, that's one reason why I'd like gmail to /not/ block spam
17:30:58 <ehird> Deewiant: you can tell it not to
17:31:00 <Deewiant> Since now I'm never sure whether it's blocked something it shouldn't have
17:31:11 <ehird> Settings->Filters->Create
17:31:16 <ehird> Has the words: [in:spam ]
17:31:17 <Deewiant> 1, 2, or 3 years ago you couldn't :-P
17:31:18 <ehird> click past the warning
17:31:32 <ehird> i'm sure you can figure it out from there
17:31:42 <FireFly> I've had 6 spam mails the last 3 days, not too bad...
17:32:11 <ehird> meh, it isn't uploading
17:32:14 <Deewiant> ehird: Actually I can't. "[in:spam ]"?
17:32:21 <ehird> Deewiant: [ ... ] = textbox
17:32:31 <ehird> so type in: in:spam
17:32:53 <Deewiant> Messages in Spam and Trash will not be searched.
17:33:22 <ehird> [17:31:15] <ehird> Has the words: [in:spam ]
17:33:43 <Deewiant> You really should consider putting subjects and verbs in your sentences :-P
17:35:06 <Deewiant> Hm, can I forward all my existing spam somehow
17:35:33 <ehird> ok, i'll be more specific
17:35:45 <ehird> tick never send it to spam, then click "Also apply to ..."
17:35:49 <ehird> watch spam flood into inbox
17:36:26 <Deewiant> Note: filter will not be applied to old conversations in Spam or Trash
17:36:41 <ais523> why not just read the spam folder/
17:36:57 <ehird> yeah what sgeo said
17:37:00 <Deewiant> Besides, I do want it in the Spam folder, I just want to forward it to my 'real' address
17:37:01 <Sgeo> Select all $num conversations in Spam
17:37:23 <ehird> Forward it to: [... your address ...]
17:37:26 <Deewiant> I can select all but I don't see a 'forward' button
17:37:47 <Deewiant> Also apply filter to 0 conversations below.
17:37:55 <ehird> then your spam is empty
17:38:14 <ehird> screenshot your filter criteria page
17:38:34 <Deewiant> [in:spam] in "Has the words", all else blank
17:38:42 <ehird> ok, click test search
17:38:46 <ehird> does it show all your spam
17:38:49 <Deewiant> No existing messages match your criteria.
17:38:55 <ehird> is this the new gmail
17:39:00 <Deewiant> Is it so hard to believe "Messages in Spam and Trash will not be searched."
17:39:06 <ehird> yes, because I have a filter with in:spam
17:39:13 <Deewiant> I've used this approximately never
17:39:19 <ehird> Deewiant: do the inbox, starred etc links have a semi-large indent in front of them
17:39:20 <Deewiant> I just get everything over POP
17:39:21 <ehird> if so, it's the new one
17:39:57 <Deewiant> Yeah, there's about 2 or 3 em there
17:40:11 <ehird> ok, then it's the new one
17:40:13 <ehird> I have this filter:
17:40:29 <Deewiant> Right, there's a link to "Older version" at the top
17:40:59 <Deewiant> ehird: that space was relevant
17:41:11 <ehird> you can't have a space
17:41:15 <ehird> i thought you meant
17:41:18 <ehird> should I put the space in
17:41:41 <ehird> [ ] was just to represent the browser's text box
17:42:15 <Deewiant> hoo, 1200 conversations of spam coming my mway
17:42:40 <ehird> it's like a ROLLERCOASTER of SPAM
17:43:00 <Deewiant> Either there's a delay or it's not sending them
17:43:01 <ehird> Deewiant: what's your gmail? I'll send you a test spam to see if it's working
17:43:59 <ehird> note: make sure it's in spam folder in your gmail, as well as being forwarded...
17:46:03 <Deewiant> ehird: Wasn't flagged as spam :-D
17:46:16 * ehird gets a real spam from spam folder
17:46:22 <Deewiant> Came into my inbox and thunderbird grabbed it from there
17:46:24 <ehird> viagra spammers should just... write normally
17:46:28 <ehird> they wouldn't be blocked.
17:46:38 <Deewiant> Thunderbird didn't flag it as spam either FWIW
17:48:08 <Deewiant> gmail spam, wasn't forwarded to me though
17:48:23 <ehird> in the filters pane, what does it say?
17:48:59 <Deewiant> The following filters are applied to all incoming mail: Matches: in:spam Do this: Forward to ...
17:49:53 <ehird> Deewiant: try also ticking "never mark as spam"
17:50:37 <ehird> Deewiant: btw if you use imap the spam is sent as a folder
17:50:38 <Deewiant> (Again refused to do anything with the old ones)
17:54:34 <Deewiant> Wouldn't help for receiving the mail :-P
17:55:03 <ehird> I meant use IMAP directly on gmail
17:55:38 <Deewiant> my gmail got hit with some authentic japanese spam though, and that was forwarded correctly \o/
17:55:50 <ehird> still in the spam folder
17:55:56 <ehird> enjoy your useless ibox
17:56:07 <Deewiant> Because you told me to set "don't mark as spam" :-P
17:56:22 <Deewiant> Now it comes to both my gmail and non-gmail inboxes
17:56:58 <ehird> it'll forward it, then delete it
17:57:15 <Deewiant> Rather, I'll not forward it and just grab it from the inbox
17:57:38 <ehird> That also doth work
17:57:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Now tell me how I can select all spam and forward it
17:57:56 <Deewiant> Rather, I can do the former, but I don't know how to do the latter
17:57:58 <ehird> Write a script that connects via imap, reads all spams, and forwards them
17:58:10 <Deewiant> GMail has no 'forward' button?
17:59:18 <ehird> But it's message specific
17:59:34 <ehird> Select al lof them
17:59:38 <ehird> hopefully, it'll forward
17:59:48 <Deewiant> The "not spam" button is helpfully disabled after I select all
18:00:02 <Deewiant> Because I might press it accidentally or something, I guess.
18:00:11 <ehird> then do that one manually
18:00:36 <Deewiant> Deselecting one deselects all pages that I don't see as well
18:00:44 <Deewiant> I'd have to do each page manually
18:00:56 <ehird> Deewiant: no, you can do it
18:01:22 <Deewiant> Still selects only the first page
18:01:31 <ehird> Deewiant: do a search for
18:01:57 <Deewiant> Ooh, now I got your spam btw :-P
18:04:07 <Deewiant> ehird: Can I search for 'not-in:inbox' with some syntax
18:04:50 <ehird> so you can just use -{search terms}
18:07:40 * ehird writes gmailbackup.py
18:08:43 <Deewiant> Moving to inbox via the search worked
18:09:32 <Deewiant> And thunderbird is moving dozens to "Sent" because from = to = deewiant@ :-P
18:09:48 <Deewiant> And haha, it can only get 252 at a time
18:11:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: stopping gmail from stopping spam
18:12:25 <ehird> read the bloody conversation
18:12:29 <ehird> like the rest of us
18:13:20 <AnMaster> well I was just heading to bed anyway, since I have a bad cold, can hardly speak currently...
18:13:22 <Deewiant> Hmm, I think something failed and I only got around 200/500 spam
18:13:58 <Deewiant> Aha! There is one non-spam message here
18:14:12 <ehird> that's spam to me :D
18:14:30 <Deewiant> I like to archive crap like that even if I'm not interested
18:14:48 <Deewiant> Since it's actually authentic mail to me from a provider of a service I use or used
18:15:10 <ehird> do you think I should back up messages to maildir or mbox
18:15:29 <ehird> maildir seems kinda pointless for what I'm doing and mbox is more supported, but I dislike mbox's one-honking-big-fil
18:15:52 <Deewiant> Use the Mozilla version of mbox, not supported by pretty much anything right? :-P
18:16:23 <Deewiant> Welp, my junk filter just got 80 messages of training data
18:16:30 <Sgeo> Bye for now all
18:16:41 <ehird> I don't really want to invent my own format, see.
18:16:45 <ehird> Since that's not very useful.
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18:17:15 <Deewiant> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbox#Limitations
18:17:39 <ehird> er, I knew that? :s
18:17:41 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mbox&diff=267734082&oldid=251122842 :-D
18:17:59 <ehird> that's the third paragraph yo
18:18:19 <Deewiant> mbox stores... -- paragraph one
18:18:25 <Deewiant> The maildir... -- paragraph two
18:19:12 <ehird> mailbox and mbox don't handle folders though
18:19:20 <ehird> maildir++ does, but it's ugly
18:20:32 <Deewiant> You are currently using 1 MB (0%) of your 7294 MB.
18:20:44 <ehird> You are currently using 751MB (10%) of your 7294MB.
18:20:46 <Deewiant> Hmm, now where's that coming from
18:21:09 <ehird> :<, the only thing Mail.app can import is mbox and various propietary shit, + mozilla
18:21:16 <Deewiant> Aha, there's still something in "All Mail"
18:22:20 <ehird> Mayhaps I will output to both maildir AND mbox
18:22:44 <Deewiant> You are currently using 0 MB (0%) of your 7294 MB.
18:28:10 <Deewiant> 939 344 002 bytes of mail here
18:34:10 <ehird> problem with mbox:
18:34:14 <ehird> no folder support :<
18:34:33 <ehird> even folder support isn't that good tbh, since gmail's labels can be all over the place
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18:37:28 <Deewiant> ehird: So what's wrong with maildir++
18:37:47 <ehird> Well, maildir requires me putting hostnames in the generated filenames and really that's just ridiculous
18:37:52 <ehird> also it's not really suited to just dumping
18:37:58 <ehird> I'll probably just dump to multiple mboxes
18:38:01 <ehird> irritating though that is
18:40:00 <ehird> ('OK', ['(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "Agora"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "B Nomic"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "INBOX"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "Nomicron"', '(\\Noselect \\HasChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]/All Mail"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]/Bin"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]/Drafts"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]/Sent Mail"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]/Spam"', '(\\HasNoChildren) "/" "[Goog
18:40:11 <ehird> imap i s the worst thing evar
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18:52:13 <ehird> Deewiant: does thunderbird handle maildir?
18:52:51 <ehird> [('1234464706.M732275P80012Q1.bournemouth', <rfc822.Message instance at 0x26a2b0>), ('.DS_Store', <rfc822.Message instance at 0x26a300>)]
18:52:55 -!- Corun has joined.
18:52:57 <ehird> fucking OS X and it's fucking hidden files. :|
18:54:39 <Deewiant> I'm currently in Windows where it tells me it can import mail from "Communicator 4.x", "Eudora", "Outlook", "Outlook Express"
18:54:52 <ehird> but not mbox or maildir? o_O
18:55:25 <fizzie> I've imported mbox format with Windows thunderbird, but I think it was more like "copy the mbox here and hope for the best". Maybe.
18:58:49 <fizzie> This Debian Thunderbird (rebranded Icedove) only has "Communicator 4.x" in the "Tools/Import/Mail" wizzard, but the interweb says that I can just put mbox folders under the "Local Folders" storage-place and they'll appear.
18:59:02 <fizzie> Maildir it probably doesn't do.
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19:00:24 <fizzie> There's a lot of command-line mbox/maildir/pop/imap/stuff-handling tools, though.
19:01:33 <Deewiant> http://yergler.net/projects/one-off/maildir-to-mbox/
19:01:43 <fizzie> GNU mailutils has that "movemail" tool that can do conversions, and "capable of speaking POP3, IMAP, mbox, MH and Maildir". And the Pine people had one, too.
19:05:18 <fizzie> Yes, the "uw-mailutils" package has the "mailutil" tool, which is pretty much a frontend to that c-client library of theirs. It does at least IMAP, POP3 and NNTP on the network side, I don't know what local formats. That mailutil I've used in one migration, anyway.
19:08:12 <fizzie> The driver names are "unix", "mbox", "mmdf", "mbx", "tenex", "mtx", "mh", "news" (it's a local news-spool) and "phile" (single-file thing), so I guess it's pretty comprehensive as far as mailboxy formats go, but not maildirry.
19:12:30 -!- olsner has joined.
19:19:50 <ehird> there should be an mbox variant with a header like
19:20:43 <ehird> (\Noselect \HasChildren) "/" "[Google Mail]"
19:20:47 <ehird> i should totally not have to parse that
19:29:00 <ehird> sub c{($_=pop)<0?print substr"/,'\\)(`\n |_.",$_+12,1:c(vec(vec
19:29:00 <ehird> ('<;JK;::::B:::Tshu[FoatcN[LL;DWQ?cJ?=ghTsXqWqwhqgT@CUMGlgTpRd'.
19:29:01 <ehird> 'KhI_wgTp`lpGOYs>quHWthuhUbuhuh[hu@TguhMGWulXsWiiekwhqwhqwxh@q'.
19:29:01 <ehird> 'uXaWGhqqOmqwxhtXiThf:::[:::::Jb?cB_duWI[ZLN[DNqWIObTsPGuUoTDU'.
19:29:03 <ehird> 'oOqWac@sMSUDUMGlWoNp`lXsXeWqc`XquXqW=WqJeW=gpGnWqi[Pu@TgiVeNm'.
19:29:11 <ehird> 'qSQwWwWwWGpSQ]wWonhTTQ]ufeWonhTboEi=::ZQGke`E',$a/6,8)-58>>$a++
19:29:12 <ehird> %6&1?'HGJSTFIXOZ[':'QLRKMUVWYPN',$_,8)-82)}c 10 while$a<1728
19:30:04 <ehird> Perl, Ruby & Python quine:
19:30:11 <ehird> #!/usr/bin/env python
19:30:14 <ehird> print 'Hello, world!\n'
19:30:31 <ehird> with perl, it actually executes python :-D
19:30:43 <Deewiant> print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n",
19:31:14 <ehird> but in python it outputs an extraneous space+newline
19:32:27 <ehird> try it fo yourself
19:32:34 <ehird> it goes \n, space, \n
19:32:58 <Deewiant> I did try and no extra newline :-P
19:33:40 <Deewiant> File generated by running that ends in 0D 0A.
19:33:57 <fizzie> As long as "" is on another line, of course.
19:34:03 <ehird> >>> print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n",""
19:34:03 <ehird> Just another Python hacker.
19:34:10 <ehird> >>> print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n",""
19:34:12 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's two lines.
19:34:13 <ehird> Just another Python hacker.
19:34:34 <ehird> The others output 1 line.
19:34:46 <fizzie> We mean that in the source you put the "" part on another line.
19:34:51 <fizzie> Then it doesn't print out an extra line.
19:35:05 <fizzie> >>> print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n",
19:35:09 <fizzie> Just another Python hacker.
19:35:28 <fizzie> And the extra empty string there does not produce any output.
19:36:53 <lament> print "" stops working in python3k
19:37:06 <ehird> that's easily fixable
19:37:08 <ehird> just put parens in
19:38:10 <fizzie> Did they remove the automatic-newline for print() in Python 3k too? I don't remember.
19:39:17 <ehird> I wonder if mbox importers check for sent
19:39:22 <ehird> e.g. folders named Sent
19:40:38 <fizzie> Oh, the 3.0 print() function has an extra optional parameter 'end' denoting the ending text.
19:42:36 <ehird> doesn't help for polyglotism
19:45:00 <ehird> http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2009/02/25-things-about-me.html
19:45:43 <ehird> written in base 0.04, i assume
19:51:50 <ehird> wtf you can only do one mailbox at a time in imap.
20:13:25 <ehird> All Mail is irritating
20:13:52 <ehird> because it's hard to avoid duplicate messages
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20:22:52 <ehird> http://gqwl.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/making-valentines-day-special-with-haskell-and-brainfuck/
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20:24:01 <Metcalf> Hi Ehird, I was wondering where you are
20:24:14 <ehird> oh right, I updated my system
20:24:16 <ehird> so new irc client config
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21:49:55 <ehird> Python(80380) malloc: *** mmap(size=2281472) failed (error code=12)
21:49:56 <ehird> *** error: can't allocate region
21:49:56 <ehird> *** set a breakpoint in malloc_error_break to debug
21:54:34 <ehird> yeah it's downloading an email
21:54:38 <ehird> I don't have any 2.2gig emails
21:57:25 <olsner> um, doesn't that say 2.2 meg?
21:57:40 <olsner> or is it saying 4.8 gig in pages?
21:57:46 <ehird> the email is just 2mb
21:57:50 <fizzie> At least the mmap syscall is bytes.
21:57:52 <ehird> i'm streaming it to a file
21:57:56 <ehird> wonder if I could optimize that?
21:58:01 <ehird> i.e., have it not go through a string...
21:58:17 <olsner> optimized transfer of 2MB ... should be a waste of time!
21:59:09 -!- Corun has joined.
21:59:54 <fizzie> And that's a rather small allocation. Although you can get ENOMEM (12) by exceeding the maximum number of mappings, too.
22:00:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:00:31 <ehird> 'm not sure why it's doing this.
22:00:44 <ehird> A tiny backtrace snippet from the end:
22:00:44 <ehird> File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/python2.5/imaplib.py", line 948, in _get_response
22:00:45 <ehird> data = self.read(size)
22:00:45 <ehird> File "/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/lib/python2.5/imaplib.py", line 1150, in read
22:00:46 <ehird> data = self.sslobj.read(size-read)
22:03:28 <ehird> What, every single mail message? It may balk out at message 10 but I'm downloading tensathousandsa messages here...
22:03:52 <ehird> I'll give it a try though
22:07:50 <MizardX> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2008-January/474035.html
22:08:24 <ehird> it's like we're al lthe same <3
22:08:32 <ehird> "In a worst case scenario, you'll need some 13 gigabytes of
22:08:32 <ehird> virtual memory to read a 15 megabyte message..."
22:08:43 <ehird> worst library EVER
22:08:59 <MizardX> http://bugs.python.org/issue1389051
22:10:16 <ehird> well, it's been over a year
22:12:44 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
22:14:00 <ehird> I'll just use libgmail
22:16:53 <ehird> libgmail is prolly really slow though
22:17:06 <ehird> as it screen-scrapes, eww
22:18:08 <fizzie> There were a couple of workaround-attempts in those two bugs (1389051 and 1092502).
22:18:54 <ehird> I don't wanna edit the core socket.py
22:19:59 <MizardX> make a copy of socket.py in your project dir
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22:34:11 <ehird> libgmail is just too slow
22:35:07 <ehird> # String method conversion by ESR, February 2001.
22:37:41 <MizardX> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZISC
22:45:11 <ehird> "The following are SGI specific, and may be out of touch with the current version of reality.
22:48:09 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
23:01:04 <ehird> Hooray, backup-gmail version 0.00000001pre-pre-alpha works.
23:03:42 * GregorR doubts highly that ZISCs are TC :P
23:04:08 <GregorR> Because non-looping neural networks aren't.
23:04:17 <GregorR> And looping neural networks are generally uncomputable in bounded time.
23:05:11 * lament computes GregorR's brain
23:05:18 <lament> only took me a second!
23:16:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:26:50 * ehird just stopped 2,000 windows from opening
23:27:54 <FireFly> Alright, anyways, how come? Why was 2 000 windows about to open?
23:29:07 <ehird> FireFly: I highlighted 2000 files then double clicked
00:05:05 <ehird> Quitting applications tends to stop them doing things.
00:05:11 <ehird> Also, s'it just me or is gmail down?
00:06:04 -!- sixforty has joined.
00:06:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:06:57 <ehird> Umm, I think I'll host my own mail server.
00:08:06 <lament> my gmail is working fine.
00:12:09 <ehird> Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request.
00:12:09 <ehird> Please see Google's Terms of Service posted at http://www.google.com/terms_of_service.html
00:13:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:43:58 <GregorR> Heh, having a client that creates a malformed request is against the terms of service :P
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00:59:59 <MizardX> http://www.coolepochcountdown.com/
01:10:59 <GregorR> That's going to be a very brief celebration :P
01:11:07 <GregorR> I hope the page turns bright and exciting for EXACTLY one second.
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01:38:33 <GreaseMonkey> could do with some happy fun music for just one second
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02:03:40 <Sgeo> GreaseMonkey, I my me my?
02:04:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9wSMuCJCkQ
02:14:14 <kerlo> There has to be more to it than that.
02:14:23 <kerlo> Aha: I, me, my, mine, myself.
02:15:00 <kerlo> And ey, em, eir, eirs, emself or e, em, eir, eirs, eirself.
02:25:34 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldgVlzWCfS8 same song, different video
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08:11:17 <oklopol> feels kinda weird using the computer on a lecture
08:11:39 <oklopol> do irc people exist even when i'm on lectures?
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08:13:16 <fizzie> IRC people exist always when you're observing us.
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08:16:54 <oklofok> not even on the actual seats, i took a chair and pulled it against the back wall
08:19:12 <oklofok> so, where does everyone summer
08:20:19 <lament> oklofok: probably toronto
08:20:26 <lament> but i might go to europe too
08:21:21 <oklofok> wow an actual answer, that was unexpected, how do you keep it fresh after so many years lammy?
08:21:54 <oklofok> isn't it kinda boring here/there
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08:22:08 <fizzie> Well, if this is going to be one of those "actual answers" things... I guess I'll have to go to visit elderly relatives at Lieksa again this year; been a couple of years from the last visit.
08:22:28 <oklofok> the question is about subsets, guy starts to draw a truth table.
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08:29:42 <oklofok> discrete math, tons of different kinds of discrete math stacked together, scratching the surface.
08:29:42 <oklofok> very broad and simple course
08:29:42 <oklofok> also useless if you do the algebra stuff, but this is for cs people, i'm just filling the holes in my schedule with it
08:30:13 <oklofok> i mean, i am technically cs people, but i should probably be math people
08:31:10 <lament> go to #not-math and say that
08:31:48 <lament> to see how a bunch of mathematicians would react to that statement :)
08:31:51 <oklofok> and cs is math, it's just simpler math, and the actual cs courses aren't entirely about cs.
08:32:02 <oklofok> lament: to me being math people?
08:32:18 <lament> oklofok: to cs being math
08:32:39 <lament> if nobody's awake it doesn't count
08:32:50 <oklofok> yeah, it's not math, but i assumed he meant the science VS math distinction
08:35:41 <lament> actually trwbw is awake, so he's just ignoring you
08:36:27 <bsmntbombdood> it's funny how every technical chanel has an extremely knowledgable person who is also a total dick
08:37:00 <bsmntbombdood> trbw is #math's, zhivago is ##c's, riadstrat is #scheme's
08:37:23 <lament> i'm a total dick but i don't know shit
08:37:30 <oklofok> maybe when i start doing my CA research, i can start being a dick
08:37:36 <lament> but i don't think riaqjkxqjkx is at all a dick
08:38:01 <lament> #lisp, on the other hand, is all dicks :)
08:38:05 <lament> and #haskell doesn't have ayn
08:39:47 <oklofok> well. gotta leave, it seems the computer screen has started to make me feel sick :)
08:39:55 <oklofok> which is kinda cool, because i'm an irc addict.
08:40:13 <lament> walk up to the front first
08:40:34 <lament> come on just do it, this is your chance
08:40:52 <lament> what are you waiting for?
08:41:34 <lament> he's not answering, maybe he's doing it right now!
08:43:45 <bsmntbombdood> look, my computer can execute and infinite loop in 6.8 seconds
08:43:52 <bsmntbombdood> int main(){uint32_t i; for(i = 1; i != 0; i++); return 0;}
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15:00:59 <impomatic> Had trouble accessing freenode, for some reason my ip had been banned :-(
15:12:11 <AnMaster> hah I just read xkcd... Very meta humor today
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15:31:21 <ais523> I've put in suggestions for a new round of BF Joust, but they've fallen on deaf ears so far, people have been distracted
15:32:02 <ais523> my suggestions were: tape reduce to between 10 and 50 elements, . as an explicit no-op that wastes a cycle, flags have to be at 0 for two consecutive cycles to cause their owner to lose
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15:42:56 <impomatic> Hmmm... I made reddit frontpage today :-)
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16:01:24 <ais523_> how come I have an underscore?
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16:01:32 <AnMaster> ais523, btw is the Door repaired yet?
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16:01:44 <ais523> it was locked by hand a couple of nights ago, so probably not
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16:18:47 <MigoMipo> I think the wiki main page needs an update.
16:19:07 <MigoMipo> "Waiting for the results of the 2006 Esolang Contest" seems a bit out of date
16:22:10 <ais523> although we're still waiting...
16:22:24 <ais523> IIRC, the main page isn't protected, so you can update it yourself if you like
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16:27:02 <MigoMipo> "Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esolang Factory", is that important?
16:27:17 <ais523> it's another thing that never really got started
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17:20:17 <impomatic> So what happened to the 2006 Esolang results?
17:20:32 <ais523> the contest happened, just we never got the results
17:20:34 <impomatic> AnMaster: the optimizing assembly one
17:21:08 <impomatic> Who was responsible for them? Can't they be harrassed?
17:21:45 <impomatic> Answering questions in the backlog! 15:48:41 <AnMaster> which one?
17:22:02 <AnMaster> impomatic, oh you took so long it timed out from my mental questions yet to be answered buffer
17:22:21 <AnMaster> but if you are interested in optimising asm you might want to look at http://code.google.com/p/mao/
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17:24:02 * impomatic would be interested in a new round of BF Joust
17:24:43 <ais523> maybe I'll wite a hill myself
17:24:52 <ais523> because my suggestion was just ignored or forgotten about, I think
17:27:31 <impomatic> Well if you write a hill, I'll submit :-)
17:28:03 <impomatic> What suggestion? A different spec?
17:28:09 <ais523> yes, slightly different
17:28:34 <ais523> tape from 10 to 50 elements, . as an explicit no-op that takes one cycle, you need to keep the enemy flag zero for two consecutive cycle-ends to win
17:30:10 <impomatic> Hmmm... that's got to be better than having 135 > in the middle of every program
17:30:36 <ais523> yes, and it opens various new strategies as well
17:30:44 <ais523> to be precise, it makes defensive strategies a lot more useful
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17:34:03 <impomatic> Hmmm... maybe it should have 1 point for a tie, 3 points for a win
17:34:29 <ais523> to start with, I'll probably write a one-of joust runner, rather than a hill
17:34:34 <ais523> maybe not now, though, I'm RL-busy
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17:44:20 <AnMaster> Why this recent interested in eso-codewar?
17:45:28 <ais523> and impomatic comes from a codewarrior background, it's an obvious idea for someone like that
17:45:29 <AnMaster> I didn't ask "why", but rather "why now"
17:45:40 <AnMaster> well I never found it very interesting
17:46:07 <AnMaster> and yes, of course it is subjective
17:46:09 <impomatic> I guess I'm interested because I'm an actual corewar player
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17:47:11 <impomatic> Yes, I had quite a bit of fun with BF Joust, trying out different strategies.
17:47:14 <AnMaster> impomatic, well of course I realise "interesting" is highly subjective
17:47:31 <AnMaster> but "<ais523> and impomatic comes from a codewarrior background, it's an obvious idea for someone like that" answered the question I have
17:47:42 <impomatic> In the end I could only find one strategy with a decent score. Other more intelligent strategies didn't score well :-(
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17:48:28 <AnMaster> impomatic, what about overwriting cell 2 or 3 or such of the other player's code tape?
17:49:03 <AnMaster> might not work very well I guess
17:49:05 <ais523> AnMaster: there isn't a way to do that in most code war games
17:49:13 <ais523> for instance, in CoreWars the opponent's at a random location
17:49:21 <ais523> in the games where there is, like FYB, it works badly
17:49:22 <AnMaster> ais523, um in BF Joust... why not --?
17:49:32 <ais523> AnMaster: because in BF Joust you can't overwrite the enemy's code at all
17:49:41 <AnMaster> ais523, oh, which one was that then?
17:49:48 <ais523> FYB you're thinking of
17:50:15 <ais523> it was a subgame of Agora
17:50:33 <AnMaster> ais523, care to link to specs? I assume they must be somewhere
17:50:45 <ais523> let me try to find them
17:50:52 <ais523> it's a dynamic thing, the rules are updated from time to time
17:51:01 <ais523> at the moment they just say "There is no current tournament. Coming Soon!"
17:51:05 <ais523> let me find the version before that
17:51:14 <fizzie> A reasonable summary is in #esoteric logs also, but I don't remember the day.
17:51:35 <AnMaster> by the way, I recently (last week) went over all projects by google on google code. Found some rather interesting ones
17:51:49 <AnMaster> like core dump on the fly and then continue
17:51:58 <AnMaster> http://code.google.com/p/google-coredumper/
17:52:07 <ais523> revision 1 of http://agora-notary.wikidot.com/brainfuck-joust has it
17:52:14 <ais523> stupid JS-generated pages that can't be linked to...
17:52:20 <ais523> you have to go via "history" at the bottom of the page
17:53:43 <fizzie> Also the "history" button here just says "Error processing the request. You have no valid security token which is required to prevent identity theft. Please enable cookies in your browser if you have this option disabled and reload this page." (I do whitelist-only cookiesies.)
17:53:56 <ais523> ok, that's really really ridiculous
17:54:04 <ais523> I now hate wikidot even more than I did before you said that
17:54:14 <fizzie> "Can't look at the page history, someone might STEAL your IDENTITY."
17:54:16 <ais523> identity theft of a wiki history page, which is somehow prevented using cookies?
17:56:17 <impomatic> The spec is also included in this article http://tr.im/f03n
17:56:52 <impomatic> (which leaves out the boring bits)
17:59:07 <ais523> we need a better version, really
17:59:19 <ais523> I think the 2-consecutive-cycles thing really would alter the way the game was played
17:59:29 <impomatic> By the way, there's a huge list of programming games at http://aiforge.net
17:59:29 <impomatic> I'm slowly working my way through them
18:21:49 <impomatic> Wouldn't -[>>[-]<-] be a solution that keeps the flag zero for 2 consecutive cycles?
18:22:12 <ais523> it would make you overshoot the end and die
18:22:30 <ais523> [>[-].-] would work as a trivial warrior if your opponent didn't interfere
18:22:35 <ais523> (this is why we have an explicit NOP)
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18:24:54 <impomatic> Mine shouldn't overshoot the end though.
18:37:56 <nooga> got a simple multithreaded server written in C? :D
18:41:27 <AnMaster> nooga, "++ S . S" <-- what language?
18:44:24 <nooga> none, it just looks funny
18:45:06 <ais523> I think it's legal Haskell and Prolog, but only if you define operators in each
18:45:06 <nooga> the problem is that ruby has melted my brain and now i am so illiterate i can't write simple, multithreaded tcp server in c
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18:47:41 <oerjan> oh no, it was quite physical at my place
18:47:54 <lament> C is so old, I prefer B#
18:50:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I was considering prolog yes, At first it looked like a fragment of Erlang, but I quickly concluded that since a) ++ is probably be most useless erlang operator in existence b) ++ is binary not unary. c) A variable reference after a . doesn't make a lot of sense
18:50:53 <ais523> well, in prolog you can write any junk sequence of operators and values, it's only evaluated if you try to evaluate it
18:52:06 <AnMaster> ais523, also ++ in erlang means "concat lists", and is useless because it is slow on large lists unless you concat one element at head, and then you would use [H|T] anyway
18:52:45 <ais523> AnMaster: just because an operator's slow doesn't necessarily make it useless
18:53:13 <AnMaster> ais523, well I have hardly seen any code using it, and most erlang books recommends avoiding it
18:54:14 <AnMaster> ais523, consider that if the first argument needs to be copied due to single assignment.
18:54:29 <AnMaster> you get an O(terrible) behaviour for any code using it
18:54:51 <nooga> $#U)T32iq[tow5esp'rf[sd0gee45$$$kprkgp[rk
18:55:09 <AnMaster> normal way is to build lists backwards then call the BIF (built in function) lists:reverse/1
18:55:15 <AnMaster> which since it is built in is very fast
18:55:17 <ais523> it's the second half of a statement
18:55:56 <ais523> to make it legal, you'd have to add something to the start and end
18:55:59 <AnMaster> hypothesis: You can't parse perl with LR(1)
18:56:17 <AnMaster> I haven't really investigated this though
18:56:24 <nooga> P6 seems to be cool
18:56:25 <AnMaster> but considering what little perl I know...
18:56:28 <ais523> actually, I think that isn't legal
18:56:39 <ais523> unless it's inside a here-document or string or something
18:57:06 <AnMaster> ais523, would it be possible to parse perl using simple LR(1)?
18:58:34 <ais523> no, it's actually uncomputable to parse Perl5
18:58:49 <AnMaster> ais523, well assuming no BEGIN blocks?
18:59:28 * AnMaster hates this keyboard's , key... pressing it down has larger friction than other keys for some reason
18:59:37 <ais523> oh, assuming no BEGIN blocks, LR(1) isn't enough
18:59:37 <oerjan> <ais523> I think it's legal Haskell and Prolog, but only if you define operators in each
18:59:42 <ais523> nor is LR(n) for any n
18:59:44 <AnMaster> oh and altgr only has larger friction going upwards
18:59:46 <ais523> but it's theoretically possible
19:00:09 <ais523> AnMaster: how many tokens in s/a b
19:00:10 <oerjan> i don't think so. ++ S . S implies S is a function and i don't think you can achieve that.
19:01:03 <ais523> it means replace some string with
19:01:06 <oerjan> oh well, you could hide the usual definitions of ++ and ., i guess
19:01:09 <ais523> and the some string is either ab or "a b"
19:01:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the matching /?
19:01:21 <ais523> that's several lines later
19:01:28 <ais523> that's how I'm proving the LR(n) for any n
19:01:38 <ais523> you can add an infinite number of newlines then either //x; or //;
19:01:41 <AnMaster> ais523, then there is no way you can handle /* foo */ in C?
19:01:43 <ais523> and that changes how that one line is parsed
19:01:56 <AnMaster> ais523, so what does the x mean?
19:02:05 <ais523> it means ignore whitespace inside the s/// group
19:02:36 <AnMaster> ais523, ok so that changes what the parameters look like, right
19:02:45 <AnMaster> but does that have to be in the parser?
19:02:50 <ais523> it changes whether a b parses as two tokens or 3
19:03:05 <ais523> and yes, because regular expressions can contain Perl code, so need parsing
19:03:12 <ais523> it means delete all occurences of ab
19:03:29 <ais523> whereas s/a b// or s/a\ b//x means delete all occurences of a b
19:03:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I see, because I would just treat it as "string which is passed to s///-mini language interpreter"
19:03:49 <ais523> but that language is perl
19:03:57 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, then how do you treat eval?
19:03:59 <ais523> people have written perl programs almost entirely inside regular expression by now
19:04:11 <ais523> AnMaster: eval is given a string as its argument, so it's parsed as a string
19:04:34 <ais523> but invoking a sub-interpreter for s/// is like invoking a sub-interpreter for while
19:04:37 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed. Couldn't you implement s/// as that?
19:05:09 <AnMaster> you just have to pass any set variables back
19:05:23 <AnMaster> also scope for while would end at end of while surely?
19:05:26 <nooga> is that true that Perl 6 is basically an ultra powerful regex engine that can alter itself creating basically infinite levels of abstraction?
19:05:35 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if goto x; s/(?{x:; print "hello"})// works
19:05:39 <ais523> but knowing Perl, it probably does
19:05:50 <AnMaster> or do you imply that while ... { $a=$b } makes a being set outside?
19:06:21 <ais523> it's obviously possible for loops to alter variables outside a loop
19:06:25 <ais523> more importantly, you can goto into a loop
19:06:36 <ais523> if the loop wasn't parsed, you wouldn't know there was a label there
19:06:55 <AnMaster> ais523, what would goto inside a loop do in C?
19:07:07 <nooga> DNF = Do Not Fuckwithme?
19:07:11 <ais523> AnMaster: see Duff's Device
19:07:21 <ais523> it just jumps to the point where the label is
19:07:28 <ais523> when it reaches the end of the loop, it does whatever the end of the loop does
19:07:35 <AnMaster> goto x; for(int i = 0; i<20; i++) { ... x label somewhere here }
19:08:09 <ais523> because the initialiser was skipped, but declarations are compile-time not run-time, they apply to scopes
19:08:47 <AnMaster> wonder how gcc handles the stack pointer for that with computed goto
19:09:09 <ais523> AnMaster: by allocating space for all the blocks inside a function at the start of a function
19:09:14 <ais523> simple enough when you know about it
19:10:35 <ais523> or to be precise, never allocates the memory
19:10:43 <AnMaster> also it explains why valgrind reports uninitialised variables in blocks near the end of the function as "allocated on stack at <line number for the start of the function>"
19:10:45 <ais523> because it's a function, not a compiler directive
19:11:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I think alloca() is a built in function in gcc?
19:11:23 <AnMaster> I can hardly imagine it would work if it wasn't
19:11:30 <ais523> it is, but it can work not as a built-in function
19:11:48 <ais523> it works by messing with the stack pointer, which only works if you aren't omitting the frame pointer
19:11:51 <AnMaster> well, only if the compiler is aware of it
19:11:55 <ais523> but which the compiler needn't know about as long as the frame pointer is there
19:11:59 <lament> C# has a call GC.Collect()
19:12:04 <lament> doesn't fucking do shit
19:12:05 <ais523> I'm pretty surre it started life as a non-builtin
19:12:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well if the frame pointer isn't there, how will compiler know how much to stubstract from the stack top pointer at return?
19:13:19 <lament> cause i keep running out of memory
19:13:23 <AnMaster> lament, if you mean "didn't return memory to OS" then you are probably right. It would probably just keep the memory around for future allocation
19:13:49 <AnMaster> and even malloc() and free() iirc
19:13:58 <ais523> AnMaster: that's why it only works with frame pointers
19:13:59 <AnMaster> though for that it is a bit more complex
19:14:05 <ais523> but alloca is old, omitting frame pointers is new
19:14:34 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I ran into an interesting issue recently
19:14:58 <AnMaster> was using valgrind on a binary compiled with -O0 -ggdb3. and using -db-attach=yes to attach gdb at the point of the issue
19:15:09 <AnMaster> valgrind prints a stack trace, asks if I want to attach
19:15:27 <AnMaster> gdb shows a stack trace with a few ???
19:15:38 <ais523> that happens a lot, it means the stack itself got corrupted
19:15:42 <AnMaster> if I use gdb from the start and break at that point I see a working stack trace
19:15:56 <AnMaster> ais523, no it didn't, the issue was an assert()
19:16:03 <AnMaster> it wasn't even a normal valgrind error
19:16:46 <AnMaster> thing is when using gdb from the start it shows a nice backtrace from either breakpoint or the SIGABRT in abort()
19:16:55 <AnMaster> ais523, so to me this makes no sense
19:17:44 <AnMaster> everything in the backtrace, except libc itself, was built with -O0 -ggdb3. Glibc was built with debugging symbols. I think that means -O2 -g
19:18:02 <AnMaster> and framepointers were NOT omitted
19:18:10 <AnMaster> so I have no idea what cause this
19:18:18 <AnMaster> ais523, just wonder if you can think of anything
19:19:57 <AnMaster> not that the program actually uses threads, but it uses sqlite which internally use threads
19:20:33 <AnMaster> also the assert() was inside a dlopen()ed plugin (again -O0 -ggdb3, like the main program)
19:20:38 <AnMaster> no idea if that could affect it?
19:21:39 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm busy with something else, and don't know anything about that sort of thing...
19:27:27 <Hiato> Sorry to bug, but, out of interest, does anyone how would one split an array into n equal portions in haskell?
19:29:26 <oerjan> Hiato: iirc dropWhile (not . null) . something (splitAt n)
19:29:57 <Hiato> ok, perfect, will try it, thanks oerjan
19:29:58 <oerjan> something may be mapAccumL, let me test
19:30:15 <oerjan> oh wait you said n portions
19:30:24 <Hiato> (heh, saves me from trying a million functions)
19:30:26 <oerjan> i answered portions of n each :)
19:30:34 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
19:30:51 <oerjan> also did you mean array or list?
19:31:39 <Hiato> on #haskell I as just told "list" is the word
19:32:11 <oerjan> haskell also has arrays, but they are used for different things
19:32:59 <Hiato> yeah, well, splitAt works just fine :P
19:33:08 <Hiato> I can then easily use tail/head etc
19:33:23 <oerjan> yes but mapAccumL was wrong. hm.
19:34:45 <oerjan> takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . splitAt 3) $ "abcdefghij"
19:34:53 <oerjan> is what i was trying at with the first
19:35:08 <oerjan> it still splits into parts of 3 though
19:35:39 <Hiato> ok, hrmm.. that may be useful, but not in my sorting algo, thanks anyway (PS: Haskell is da s4$t! man, is it awsome, just have to learn it first..)
19:36:48 <oerjan> it may be easier to collect things bottom up, as i recall
19:37:05 <oerjan> at least for a mergesort
19:37:30 <lament> "s4$t"? Please no swearing in the channel.
19:37:50 <Hiato> yeah, but I'm writing my own little sorting algorithm, based on arithmetic means and what have you
19:37:59 <Hiato> lament: I do apologise, I meant shit
19:38:13 <oklopol> yeah, haskell is pretty sast alright
19:39:15 <oklopol> well that was my comment on the whole s4$t thing, didn't realize lament already used it up.
19:40:20 <Hiato> er, anyone know how to grab the type of something, I can't remember.. it's not 'a' :: type, but I think it's close to that
19:40:26 <oklopol> and, so i cool up my coke in the freezer, wait for ages for it to be just perfect
19:40:40 <oklopol> then i sleep for 4 hours with the coke in room temperature next to the bed.
19:42:19 <oerjan> Hiato: um for what purpose?
19:42:29 <oerjan> to see the type, use :t in the interpreter
19:42:53 <oerjan> there is no such thing unadorned i think
19:43:22 <oerjan> asTypeOf can force something to have the same type as something else
19:43:34 <lament> if you want first class types you need the cock
19:43:59 <oerjan> i think the hen can work too (Agda)
19:44:32 <oerjan> (pun comprehensible to swedes and some norwegians only)
19:45:27 <oerjan> cock -> Coq, theorem assistant
19:45:39 <oerjan> name is french, refers to the bird
19:45:51 <lament> cock refers to the bird? Get it? Ha-ha.
19:46:13 <oerjan> as well as to a certain Coquand who probably invented the theory behind it
19:47:21 <oerjan> Agda II is a different theorem prover/programming language
19:47:45 <oerjan> a certain Catarina Coquand, who is _not_ i think the same, is involved in it
19:47:54 <oerjan> she lives in sweden afaiu
19:48:10 <lament> she's one cocky bastard
19:48:20 <oerjan> at least she's on chalmers.se
19:48:30 <oklopol> oerjan: and "hen", because..?
19:49:03 <Hiato> (in winhugs it's :type bleh)
19:49:58 <oerjan> oklopol: when investigating this, i saw no confession of it, but Catarina or someone else _must_ have intended Agda II as a pun on this mess
19:50:08 <Hiato> (yes, yes it does oerjan :P )
19:50:52 <oerjan> i.e. Coq <-> cock, Agda <-> hen, in a way involving an inside pun
19:52:35 <oklopol> oerjan: but, but.... how can a pun be so deep but not make any sense! :D
19:52:59 <oerjan> um what doesn't make sense?
19:53:31 <oklopol> well, probably just my face.
19:53:32 <oerjan> also, it nicely preserves the sexual innuendo of cock, since Hönan Agda is a raunchy song...
19:53:46 <oklopol> yeah, i gathered from the music video
19:54:09 <oklopol> okay, okay, i guess it made sense.
19:54:29 <oerjan> now i just need to find someone who admits it... :D
20:00:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agda_(theorem_prover)
20:09:20 <ais523> <gandhi_2> If monkeying around voids the warranty, fine. If monkeying around is outlawed...then only outlaws will have monkeys...er. um. wait.
20:10:01 <oerjan> well the most famous monkey guy in norway is also a pirate. but i digress.
20:10:14 <ais523> digressions are fun, though
20:10:45 <oerjan> i know nothing about those.
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20:12:31 <oerjan> hm i may be confused about that monkey thing.
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20:19:58 <Hiato> can someone tell me why this works?I hadn't finished writing the function and presto, seems to work, I thought I'd need a layer of recursion, but I guess not. max x =if head x == 0 then tail x else (map (head) (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) ((0:(reverse x)))))
20:21:32 <AnMaster> Hiato, what language? Part of it looks like Lisp, part of it doesn't
20:21:45 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
20:22:03 -!- [Soap] has left (?).
20:22:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, just a guess, nothing else would look that messed up
20:22:36 <oerjan> well the indentation is messy
20:22:39 <AnMaster> also it was the only language you would react that way for
20:23:01 <oerjan> actually, unlambda might do too
20:23:02 <AnMaster> actually I disliked python before. But python 3.x is a lot nicer
20:23:09 <AnMaster> still the indention based block thing...
20:23:20 <AnMaster> well it has both bad and good points
20:23:36 <AnMaster> but python 3 is a lot nicer than 2.x IMO
20:24:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, I know unlambda looks totally different
20:24:22 <AnMaster> like `````li```d````````s```````k
20:24:42 <AnMaster> probably not THAT many `, but close
20:24:43 <ais523> AnMaster: in an Unlambda program there are always exactly 1 more non-` than `, unless you mess with I/O
20:24:56 <ais523> ```sii``sii for instance
20:24:56 * oerjan swats AnMaster again for good measure -----###
20:25:01 <AnMaster> ais523, oh? Well I don't claim to know the language
20:25:11 <AnMaster> just it is one of those that is easy to identify
20:25:32 <oerjan> Hiato: what the heck is that _supposed_ to do?
20:25:38 <AnMaster> even if I didn't know bf I would know it was bf, or some derivative
20:25:59 <Hiato> find the max value of a list, eg max [101,1,4,2,45,99] => 101
20:26:22 <ais523> that's trivial, just run the input as Mathematica
20:26:23 <oerjan> well the then part is clearly wrong
20:26:32 <oerjan> it has the wrong type to do what you want
20:26:32 <ais523> Max[101,1,4,2,45,99] is 101 in Mathematica, IIRC
20:26:38 <AnMaster> or that $$%#d$&?%$s///8236g5$$$)%&() was perl
20:26:55 <ais523> AnMaster: it is, it means "the current process ID modulo" and then the rest of the line is commented out
20:27:17 <AnMaster> ais523, what if you remove the # then?
20:27:38 <ais523> I think it's a syntax error starting from the third $
20:28:07 <ais523> $$%d{4} would be a deprecated syntax for $$$d{4}
20:28:09 <AnMaster> or that $$%d;$&?%$s;///82;36g5$$$);%&() was perl
20:28:33 <AnMaster> ais523, and "$$%d{4} would be a deprecated syntax for $$$d{4}" ?
20:28:45 <ais523> $a = scalar variable a
20:28:51 <ais523> $$a = the scalar that scalar variable a points to
20:29:00 <ais523> $$$a = the scalar that the scalar that scalar variable a points to
20:29:13 <ais523> it's both a unary and a binary operator
20:29:18 <oerjan> Hiato: for one thing you have many unnecessary parentheses
20:29:27 <ais523> also, $$a = the scalar that scalar variable a points to, but $$ = the current process ID
20:29:36 <AnMaster> headfloor > headdesk > facepalm
20:29:58 <AnMaster> remember to remove any glasses you have before
20:30:28 <AnMaster> btw is "glasses" or "spectacles" the most common word in English? I have heard both
20:30:30 <Hiato> oerjan, yeah, I noticed: max x = if head x == 0 then tail x else map head (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) ((0:(reverse x)))
20:30:50 <oerjan> (0:reverse x) is also enough
20:31:05 <ais523> AnMaster: I hear glasses more often, but they're synonyms
20:31:10 <ais523> both words are ambiguous
20:31:15 <oerjan> however, that will only work for some lists
20:31:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I know they are synonyms
20:31:29 <ais523> "glasses" also means "glass cylinders with bases that people drink out of", sort of like "tumblers"
20:31:34 <AnMaster> also what about a non-ambiguous alternative?
20:31:36 <ais523> "spectacles" also means "things people like to watch"
20:31:46 <ais523> it's fun to have one word with multiple meanings
20:31:57 <AnMaster> right, I knew the first, just didn't think of it
20:31:57 <ais523> and there isn't an unambiguous alternative, although generally it's obvious from context
20:32:03 <oerjan> Hiato: it only works if the maximum is the first element and all the others are smaller
20:32:08 <ais523> did you know the second?
20:32:08 <AnMaster> and the second one is logical from the Swedish work spektakel
20:32:17 <oerjan> er, the last part is redundant :D
20:32:32 <ais523> oerjan: what if there's more than one maximum?
20:32:57 <AnMaster> ais523, we have an unambig. word in Swedish: glasögon (glasseyes, for some reason you say as pair of glasseyes, like you say a pair of pants, instead of one pant)
20:33:23 <Hiato> Main> maximum [101,1,4,2,45,6,3,7,102,97]
20:33:25 <AnMaster> Pthing, is that same as glasses/spectacles
20:33:38 <AnMaster> really? never heard "eyeglasses"
20:34:24 <oerjan> Hiato: sheesh, maximum is the builtin!!!!!!!!!
20:35:02 <oerjan> btw max is a builtin name too
20:35:33 <AnMaster> btw, do you read haskell from left to right or right to left?
20:35:56 <AnMaster> I mean both C and LISP are very much left to right, while perl is sometimes right to left (like die() if foo)
20:36:11 <oerjan> i think you got to vary with haskell
20:36:41 <AnMaster> ok C isn't always the right way around, assignment for example
20:36:42 <lament> haskell is backwards, forwards, and sideways
20:36:43 <oerjan> long . and $ combinations, you may need to go right to left
20:36:57 <lament> where is bottom-to-top
20:37:02 <AnMaster> like foo = a(b, c, &d->foo[3])
20:37:37 <Hiato> oerjan: yeah, so is length, but that didn't stop me from writing len x = if x==[] then 0 else rlen (x,0); rlen (x,n) = if head x==sum x then n+1 else rlen(tail x,n+1) and then len (x:xs) = if xs==[] then 1 else ln xs+1
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20:38:05 <Slereah2> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
20:38:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, I prefer languages that you read mostly in one direction
20:38:18 <oerjan> Hiato: huh? len is not the same as length
20:38:37 <AnMaster> C is very much left to right apart from the single case of assignment. where it would be more logical to put the variable you assign at the end
20:39:06 <Hiato> oerjan: er? basically, I'm just stuffing around, learning haskell
20:39:10 <oerjan> Hiato: unless you do some import hiding stuff, you _cannot_ redefine Prelude builtins
20:39:17 <AnMaster> scheme is mostly left to right (exception define's parameter order have the same issue as C's assignment, same for let)
20:39:32 <oerjan> Hiato: yes, but you have to test your functions with the name you have given them, duh
20:39:44 <oerjan> you wrote maximum above, that is the builtin
20:41:23 <AnMaster> one thing I dislike with many languages is that it is not always clear if you are acting on the same variable or a copy. Single assignment languages doesn't have a issue, nor does C, but for example C++ (references) and Perl seem to have this issue.
20:47:03 <Hiato> without malicious input: mx x = if head x == 0 then head (tail x) else mx (0:(reverse (map head (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) (0:reverse x)))))
20:47:12 <Hiato> ie [1,1,1] counts as horrible input
20:49:13 <Hiato> (actually, it doesn't break at all)
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20:49:44 <oerjan> does [0,1,2] count? ;D
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20:56:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about passing it a non-list? Oh wait if it is haskell that will just be a boring type error
20:56:51 <oerjan> duh duh duh duh, duh duh
21:04:06 <oerjan> i for one welcome our robot timelords
21:15:54 <fizzie> If you're doing sed expressions, you might as well do y/duh/IWC/ which will do the same thing.
21:42:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: in python, you're acting on the same variable, period.
21:43:30 <oklopol> but methods are either side-effective or un-side-effected.
21:43:42 <oklopol> 1234561310 <<< gettin close
21:43:51 <oklopol> it's gonna be so awesome :D
21:43:59 <oklopol> thank you whoever linked that, GregorR?
21:44:52 <oerjan> wait, it's that timestamp thing?
21:45:46 <oklopol> http://www.coolepochcountdown.com/ <<<
21:46:00 <nooga> YOU'VE JUST LOST IT
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21:46:47 <nooga> too much /b/, excuse me gentlemen
21:47:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:47:31 <oerjan> too /b/ or not too /b/
21:47:53 <ais523> nooga: this is #esoteric, we lost it ages ago
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21:48:26 <oklopol> so can anyone here control where they tickle? i can somewhat suppress it alread, but i cannot move it or yet
21:48:54 <ais523> oklopol: I still can't figure out what you're trying to say, even with the clarifications
21:48:56 <oklopol> when i press enter prematurely, it's a bit of a chaos as i write my sentences in random pieces.
21:49:02 <oerjan> AAAAAARGH, you had to mention tickling!
21:49:10 <oklopol> so can anyone here control where they tickle? i can somewhat suppress it already, but i cannot move it or create the sensation myself yet
21:49:18 * ais523 feather-dusters oerjan ----<<<
21:49:19 <AnMaster> <oklopol> AnMaster: in python, you're acting on the same variable, period. <-- say I want to do something like this (C code): foo(&myvariable)
21:49:33 <AnMaster> but when is it pass by value and when is it pass by reference
21:49:38 <oklopol> ohh, you actually meant variable
21:49:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, I meant pass by value/reference
21:49:51 <oklopol> you cannot pass a variable, period.
21:49:51 <oerjan> oklopol: itym "itching"
21:50:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, so when I want to act on a class I need to return the class to get the result?
21:50:28 <AnMaster> will that change myobject in place?
21:50:37 <AnMaster> it is an instance of a custom class
21:50:47 <oerjan> tickling of course is much worse
21:51:14 <oklopol> blah it's the semantics all languages have, i don't feel like trying to explain how it wurks.
21:52:27 <AnMaster> will that be pass by value or reference?
21:52:40 <oerjan> oklopol: i thought i implied a strong NO ...
21:53:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: always by reference
21:53:17 <oklopol> integers are just immutable
21:53:25 <oklopol> that is, their methods return copies.
21:53:52 <oklopol> you need to think about copying in general, it's just not an issue when doing function calls.
21:54:24 <oerjan> btw does anyone else have the effect where they scratch some place that is itching, and sometimes this consistently causes somewhere _else_ to itch?
21:55:23 * oerjan blames acupuncture lines, or something :D
21:55:43 <oklopol> it's most noticeable when it's someone else who's scratching you, the guiding process is like explaining a rollercoaster.
21:55:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, and I need to care since I'm doing stuff with the C API
21:56:15 <AnMaster> no I didn't write it, I just have to maintain it
21:56:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: if you're doing low-level stuff i need to inform you the ubiquitous-pass-by-reference thing is just how i see it, i don't actually know that much.
21:56:55 <oklopol> especially not how it works under the hood.
21:57:05 <oklopol> and why do i keep saying prematurely :<
21:59:08 <oklopol> the funny thing is that phenomenon happens even if i stop the itching somewhere mentally.
21:59:40 <nooga> pthreads do the work for me, time for massive protocol design
22:05:16 <ais523> another hour or si, I won't be online then probably
22:06:12 <oklopol> oerjan: ...didn't make sense at first, because i didn't open the song right away, and therefore didn't realize the song was about a hen named agda, thought agda was a verb there.
22:07:38 <oklopol> so i thought it was just a random path of references, the last in A->B->C->D only works in a pun if there's a relation between the first and last transitions imo.
22:07:53 <oklopol> but i don't know, i'm no pun theorist.
22:09:14 <nooga> isn't pun a little bit overused?
22:12:23 <nooga> dra til helvete :D
22:13:49 <ais523> oerjan: that was way below your usual standard
22:14:23 <oklopol> "puny" is kinda of a classic
22:15:46 <oerjan> ais523: nooga clearly described how low
22:21:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:22:58 <ais523> $ while true; do sleep 1; date +%s; done
22:25:54 <comex> I think the world will explode
22:27:40 <GregorR> Just wait 'til 2038 for that :P
22:28:11 <ais523> I wonder how bad the Y2038 bug will be?
22:28:24 <ais523> I reckon there'll be a huge panic about it in about 2035, and everything will be fixed in time
22:38:28 <nooga> is there any POSIX system function that allows to set file's last modification date?
22:38:43 <ais523> there's the command touch that does that
22:38:46 <ais523> and it has to use /some/ API
22:39:28 <ais523> why do you want to, by the way? just curious, there are at least 2 uses for touch that are relatively common
22:40:33 <nooga> because i'm trying to help my friend, he's writing something like ummmm.... svn
22:40:41 <nooga> and my job is to write the server
22:40:56 <nooga> it's am idiotic school project
22:40:58 <ais523> ah, hadn't thought of that one
22:56:54 <nooga> over 9000 errors again
22:59:12 <oklopol> ##1234567890 is the coolest thing i've ever seen
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23:00:26 <ais523> wow is that a busy channel
23:00:48 <ais523> <nighthwk1> I haven't seen this much crap in an IRC channel since efnet!
23:01:15 <oklopol> reminds me of when i made my own ircd
23:01:39 <GregorR> May aaaaaall our timestamps beeeeeeeee forgot aaaaand neeeeeever are they siiiiiiiiigned! For todaaaaaaaaaaaay when we print deeeeeeeeecimal, there's a patterrrrrrrrn in UNIX tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime
23:01:44 <oklopol> and my friend put his bot up, and a few guys copypasted about a million lines of commands for the bot, i just watched the flood all night
23:04:28 <oklopol> i knew that too, but still awesome
23:05:18 <nooga> while true ; do date ; date +%s ; sleep 1 ; clear ; done
23:05:39 <nooga> preparations for printscreen :D
23:07:29 -!- kar8nga has left (?).
23:14:20 <GregorR> WTF?! 0x50000000 is on a Friday 13th too! (July, 2012)
23:14:43 <ais523> friday 13th on a round epoch number day... in 2012?
23:14:51 <ais523> I think we now know when the end of the world is
23:15:25 <ais523> GregorR: that's in UTC, presumably
23:15:46 <GregorR> ais523: It's 11AM EST though, so it's Friday 13th in most timezones.
23:16:10 <nooga> sob, 14 lut 2009, 00:15:55 CET
23:16:23 <nooga> i will happen soon ;d
23:17:11 <lament> ooh ooh ooh ooh yes! yes! don't stop!!
23:23:48 <pikhq> Hmm. Not all that long until 1234567890, UNIX time.
23:24:06 <oklopol> pikhq: ##1234567890 <<< come it's cool
23:24:07 <GregorR> pikhq: Welcome to being the last person to notice that :P
23:24:16 <GregorR> But go to ###1234567890 instead
23:24:24 <pikhq> GregorR: I was aware, just now started watching.
23:24:29 <nooga> indeed ++S.S is valid in C
23:24:55 <GregorR> nooga: Is that ++(S.S) or (++S).S? (++S).S makes no sense as far as I can guses.
23:25:42 <ais523> <lambdabot> Maximum users seen in ##1234567890: 1110, currently: 1110 (100.0%), active: 402 (36.2%)
23:25:57 <ais523> a channel with 402 /active/ users?
23:26:21 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofol.
23:26:36 -!- oklofol has changed nick to oklopol.
23:26:38 <nooga> GregorR: don't believe?
23:27:16 <GregorR> nooga: I don't recall the precedence, I believe you if that's the same as ++(S.S)
23:27:38 * ais523 is trying to hold a conversation in ##1234567890, it seems funnier that way
23:30:48 <ais523> 9 and 0 come into place simultaneously
23:31:30 <ais523> happy 1234567890, everyone!
23:32:31 <oklopol> happy cool timestamp to all
23:32:45 * ais523 loves programming holidays
23:33:25 <GregorR> Now to wait for 0x50000000, Friday the 13th, July 2012.
23:34:01 <oklopol> but... how come cool timestamps come less often than normal holidays :<
23:34:38 <oklopol> i would've banned everyone on the instant it happened :)
23:34:46 <ais523> oklopol: the ban list there was full
23:34:57 <oklopol> but you can do more general banz
23:35:01 <ais523> but I suppose +b *@*!* would do
23:35:05 <ais523> nah, they should have done /cs recover
23:35:26 <oklopol> maybe even just before, just to be annoying.
23:35:45 <nooga> http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8719/12345657890jz4.jpg taaadaaaaaaaaaaa
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23:38:34 <nooga> whaddaya think? :D
23:40:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has left (?).
23:41:27 <nooga> 00:34 < oklopol> but you can do more general banz
23:41:42 <nooga> I do most specific benz
23:42:05 <nooga> a vintage mercedes-benz
23:42:56 <nooga> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ see how one benz is exactly upon another benz
23:45:48 <nooga> YO DAWG, I HERD U LIKE THREADS, SO WE PUT A THREAD IN YOUR THREAD SO YOU CAN LOCK MUTEX WHILE YOU LOCK MUTEX
23:52:42 <nooga> it was a bit /b/ish
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00:24:37 <oklopol> GregorR: i demand ops on ##0x50000000
00:34:36 * GregorR is running a script to compile and run his program with every GCC optimization option (one by one), and time them.
00:35:09 <GregorR> No, that would take too long (EXP is a bad complexity class :P )
00:35:40 <nooga> and what is the overall shape of the results?
00:36:02 <oklopol> well i don't know how many orthogonal options there are.
00:37:22 <GregorR> Probably a few, but this will at least get me somewhere.
00:38:15 <oklopol> there should be an option for getting the absolute best gcc can offer, no matter how long it takes
00:38:32 <GregorR> That wouldn't be difficult to write, it would just take 2^{number of options} time.
00:38:44 <oklopol> like "optimize for N seconds"
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00:39:53 <oklopol> i think i need to sleep too.
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02:52:34 <comex> that doesn't handle PGO
02:52:59 <comex> question for #esoteric
02:56:29 <comex> actually, I'm going to use prlog
02:58:35 <kerlo> How dare you not ask your question. >:-(
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03:59:49 * pikhq has discovered the most pleasantly absurd DOS project...
04:00:22 <pikhq> Implements a subset of Win32, sufficient for running many single-window GUI applications which use DirectDraw, GDI, or OpenGL.
04:00:58 <pikhq> One program that runs under it is... DOSbox.
04:09:28 <GregorR> And dosbox is actually useful, as putting layers between you and the game makes it run slower.
04:11:42 <pikhq> Yeah. It's even *more* absurd that it's genuinely useful.
04:11:56 <pikhq> (assuming you're in DOS, of course)
04:12:12 <pikhq> ... Hmm. I should try and get that XT in the room running some day.
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14:21:57 <ehird> 00:36:27 <bsmntbombdood> it's funny how every technical chanel has an extremely knowledgable person who is also a total dick
14:21:59 <ehird> 00:36:40 <oklofok> is it ehird?
14:22:01 <ehird> 00:37:00 <bsmntbombdood> trbw is #math's, zhivago is ##c's, riadstrat is #scheme's
14:22:03 <ehird> 00:37:04 <bsmntbombdood> we don't have one
14:22:11 <ehird> also, zhivago is tolerable because poppavic is worse
14:22:13 <ehird> riastradthtdhjthdjth is really irritating though
14:22:23 <ais523> is that nick too long for freenode?
14:23:11 <ehird> dunno, but he has a stupid name that nobody can spell.
14:23:26 <ehird> this is a good thing because if you have trouble replying he talks to you less
14:23:35 <ehird> 09:44:08 * AnMaster sighs.
14:23:35 <ehird> 09:44:20 <AnMaster> Why this recent interested in eso-codewar?
14:23:49 <ehird> god, does AnMaster have to complain every time something is happening that he's not interested in?
14:24:04 <ais523> it looked like curiosity rather than complaint
14:24:27 <ehird> "* AnMaster sighs." is pretty much complaint, especially in future context "<AnMaster> well I never found it very interesting"
14:26:01 <ehird> 10:45:06 <ais523> I think it's legal Haskell and Prolog, but only if you define operators in each
14:26:10 <ehird> ++ would have to be a binary operator
14:26:12 <ais523> even if you override ++ to be unary?
14:26:20 <ehird> operator names can only be binary
14:26:26 <ehird> operator name = symbol+
14:27:15 <ehird> 10:52:06 <AnMaster> ais523, also ++ in erlang means "concat lists", and is useless because it is slow on large lists unless you concat one element at head, and then you would use [H|T] anyway
14:27:26 <ehird> 10:52:33 <AnMaster> so useless in any real code
14:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, see also further discussion
14:27:30 <ehird> (++) is the same in Haskell, but efficient due to laziness
14:27:57 <ais523> the concat doesn't happen until you've finished reading the first list
14:27:59 <ais523> and from there, it's trivial
14:28:22 <ehird> (x:xs) ++ b = x : xs ++ b
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14:33:08 <ehird> 11:00:10 <oerjan> i don't think so. ++ S . S implies S is a function and i don't think you can achieve that.
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14:47:26 <ehird> 11:49:03 <Hiato> (in winhugs it's :type bleh)
14:48:21 <ais523> and the 49th day of November/
14:50:16 <ehird> 12:28:07 <ais523> $$%d{4} would be a deprecated syntax for $$$d{4}
14:50:23 <ehird> hahahahahahaha I love perl I'm going to kill larry wall.
14:51:02 <ais523> I love perl too, but not to the extent when I want to kill its author
14:51:09 <ehird> 12:30:30 <Hiato> oerjan, yeah, I noticed: max x = if head x == 0 then tail x else map head (groupBy (\x y -> x>y) ((0:(reverse x)))
14:51:14 <ehird> wow that function makes no sense at all.
14:51:18 <ais523> to be even more fun, $$%d{4} would be correct in Perl6, whereas $$$d{4} wouldn't
14:51:41 <ais523> in Perl5, I'd probably write it as $${$d{4}} to be clearer, though
14:51:55 <olsner> that makes it really clear yeah
14:51:56 <ais523> or even ${${$d{4}}} to avoid a potential ambiguity with the nonexistent %$ hash
14:52:04 <ehird> LOL Hiato was testing his function as the builtin
14:52:08 <ehird> (he wrote max and tested maximum)
14:52:21 <ehird> i wonder how many tries it took
14:52:33 <ehird> no, I bet he had a serious bug.
14:52:42 <ais523> but he tested the wrong function
14:52:44 <ais523> so it worked first time
14:52:55 <ehird> 12:37:37 <Hiato> oerjan: yeah, so is length, but that didn't stop me from writing len x = if x==[] then 0 else rlen (x,0); rlen (x,n) = if head x==sum x then n+1 else rlen(tail x,n+1) and then len (x:xs) = if xs==[] then 1 else ln xs+1
14:53:02 <ehird> have you written a markov chain that outputs haskell
14:53:22 <ais523> "that didn't stop me from writing", brilliant
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14:53:36 <ehird> 12:40:23 <Hiato> I raelise now
14:54:35 <olsner> heh, awesome: if head x == sum x ...
14:54:47 <ski__> Hiato> rlen [0,1,-1]
14:55:08 <olsner> where are you getting this from?
14:55:13 <ehird> olsner: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.02.13
14:55:41 <ski__> len [0,1,-1] = rlen ([0,1,-1],0) = 0+1 = 1
14:56:19 <ski__> (since `head [0,1,-1] = 0 = sum [0,1,-1]')
14:56:35 <ehird> 13:56:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: if you're doing low-level stuff i need to inform you the ubiquitous-pass-by-reference thing is just how i see it, i don't actually know that much.
14:56:40 <ehird> yeah, python is all pass by object reference
14:56:45 <ehird> that is, it passes a reference to the object in the variable
14:56:49 <ehird> not a reference to the variable
14:57:11 <ehird> sorry, I've been away for a whoooole day so I'm megalogreading.
14:59:37 <olsner> wow, that haskell code is awesome
15:00:02 <ehird> it's expressionist haskell.
15:00:29 <ehird> 14:28:11 <ais523> I wonder how bad the Y2038 bug will be?
15:00:29 <ehird> 14:28:24 <ais523> I reckon there'll be a huge panic about it in about 2035, and everything will be fixed in time
15:00:34 <ehird> Hopefully we'll all be on 64-bit or higher systems by then.
15:00:54 <ais523> except for a few critical government systems, which are still 16-bit for some odd reason
15:00:54 <ehird> Funnay option: the singularity will upgrade us all to infinity-bits, but time is irrelevant and bendable at our will so we forget all about it.
15:01:23 <ais523> I think the singularity won't actually happen
15:01:31 <ais523> look at wikipedia, it was exponential for a while then became linear
15:01:43 <ais523> I expect something similar will happen to technological progress
15:01:59 <ehird> ais523: I'm skeptical too, but for another reason: I'm not sure humans can create smarter-than-human AI.
15:02:12 <ehird> After all, if we can understand intelligence smarter than us, that's a paradox. We'd have to be that smart.
15:02:48 <ehird> I may be incorrect, but I haven't seen a good argument why.
15:03:49 <ehird> (More generally, I don't see how X intelligence can understand X+Y intelligence, for any X and Y.)
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15:05:38 <ehird> [15:05:23] <ehird> hi guys am I too late for the party??
15:05:51 <ais523> was there any response?
15:05:55 <ais523> also, it was ridiculous
15:05:57 <ehird> [15:05:39] <MinceR> indeed
15:05:57 <ehird> [15:05:45] <ehird> :slowpoke:
15:06:00 <ais523> it was a massively spam channel
15:06:11 <ais523> there were over 1000 people there
15:06:16 <ais523> and over 400 of them were talking simultaneously
15:06:30 <ais523> 400 people talking simultaneously really is ridiculous
15:06:37 <ehird> the most active channel I've seen was, I think, the lilo memorial channel.
15:06:51 <ais523> comex pasted Agora's rule 105 into the channel, and it just got lost in the general mess
15:06:54 <ehird> where everybody's "rest in piece" was a unique and special snowflake that everyone must see!
15:07:03 <ais523> what happened to lilo?
15:07:11 <ehird> ais523: he died in 2006
15:07:14 <ehird> bike got hit by a car
15:07:23 <ais523> oh, I thought it was a bootloader
15:07:29 <ehird> ais523: founder of freenode
15:07:31 <ais523> is there a person by that name too?
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15:08:32 <ehird> [15:07:54] <ink_angry> i camed here when there was 100 peoples and dont part it bigger then 40 min when i was banned)
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15:08:50 <ais523> also, the ban list ended up full
15:09:12 <ais523> but there was no time to find a staffer to increase it before the event happened
15:09:16 <ehird> 15:01:15 <oklopol> reminds me of when i made my own ircd
15:09:18 <ehird> I still wanna do that
15:09:29 <ehird> 15:14:43 <ais523> friday 13th on a round epoch number day... in 2012?
15:09:29 <ehird> 15:14:51 <ais523> I think we now know when the end of the world is
15:09:32 <ais523> I want to write an IRC client in INTERCAL
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15:09:38 <ehird> Spacetime will bend so that it is 21st december.
15:09:53 <ehird> 2012-12-21 is the definitive End of the World day.
15:10:05 <ehird> According to New Agers making assumptions about the Mayans.
15:10:13 <ehird> Man, it'll be so funny to see that day pass.
15:10:14 <ais523> yes, the Mayans didn't predict the end of the world
15:10:20 <ehird> I predict mass suicides immediately beforehand.
15:10:23 <ais523> just a mass extinction, in which all but a few humans are transformed into animals
15:10:34 <ais523> and the world's terrain massively changes, although they didn't know what into
15:11:07 <ehird> I bet there was an off-by-one
15:11:10 <ehird> and it's actually the day after.
15:12:08 <ais523> well, I don't want the end of the world to happen
15:12:20 <ais523> how come the Mayans, in particular, get all the credence for prediciting it?
15:12:40 <ehird> because they're mystic and supposedly really clever.
15:12:41 <ais523> Discordianism thinks something major will happen in 9661, how could it if the world had ended at the time?
15:12:45 <ehird> and because new agers are idiots
15:14:19 <ais523> I think I've just found the best Slashdot car analogy ever: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1127743&cid=26852283
15:15:26 <ais523> now I just have to figure out what it means...
15:15:44 <ehird> I think it's God, converted to a string.
15:16:56 <ehird> 16:38:15 <oklopol> there should be an option for getting the absolute best gcc can offer, no matter how long it takes
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15:17:14 <ais523> -F from C-INTERCAL, obviously
15:18:59 <ehird> hmm...IMAP lets you forge arbitrary messages on the server? neat
15:20:37 <ehird> http://offsystem.sourceforge.net/ <-- Copyright law intent fail
15:21:43 <ais523> I think they're missing the point
15:21:56 <ais523> clearly, it's the data that's copyrighted not the encoding
15:22:03 <ais523> and equally clearly, the data exists, or it couldn't be retrieved
15:22:16 <ehird> And also, semantic lies are useless.
15:22:18 <ehird> It's all about intent.
15:22:22 <ehird> [ see http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/colour/2004061001.php ]
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15:34:22 <ais523> incidentally, Mon Feb 16 16:51:37 UTC 2009 is 0x49999999 seconds since the epoch
15:34:26 <ais523> although that's clearly cheating a bit
15:35:31 <ais523> heh, http://www.google.com/logos/unix1234567890.gif
15:35:35 <ehird> surely 16:51:38 is more interesting
15:35:40 <ais523> if even Google celebrates it, it must be a major holiday
15:35:52 <ehird> ais523: I hope that only went up for one second
15:36:04 <ais523> I don't know, although reports are it wasn't up for very long
15:36:05 <ehird> also, the 0 at the end is so. arbitrary.
15:36:08 <ais523> so maybe it was just the one second
15:36:12 <ehird> 0123456789 was more impressive
15:36:23 <ais523> the 0's to the right of a 9 on a computer keyboard
15:36:37 <ehird> it's still arbitrary as hell
15:37:24 <ehird> 0123456789 = 29 nov 1973, 21:33:09
15:37:55 <ais523> it's amazing how fast a few tens of thousands of seconds can fly past
15:38:21 <ehird> I wonder how many planck times in a second. (note: trivial to find out.)
15:38:42 <ehird> According to quantum theory, 1 Planck time should be the smallest unit of time physics can reason about in a meaningful way. But according to news reports, analyses of Hubble Space Telescope Deep Field images in 2003 raised a possible discrepancy. Very distant images that should have been blurry were not, contradicting the notion that Planck time is indeed the smallest measurable unit of time.[5][6][7]
15:38:43 <ehird> time should be continuou
15:39:20 <ehird> 5.39124 * (10^(-44)) = 5.39124 × 10-44
15:39:45 * ehird read the wp article wrong
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15:48:49 <ehird> ais523: that's surprisingly ugly/hacked up for a google logos
15:48:59 <ehird> also, kind of obscure for them to reference.
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15:49:18 <ehird> http://www.google.com/holidaylogos.html not here
15:49:22 <ais523> well, it's a UNIX time celebration, a UNIX command makes sense
15:49:30 <ais523> I don't think it was a holiday logo, more a one-off 1-second joke
15:49:59 <ehird> if it was really only up for a second, I wanna marry the guy that did that
15:50:03 <ehird> wait, is google based in california? fuck.
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15:50:52 <ehird> http://www.google.com/customlogos.html this page is horrendous, but, go to the end and see retro google logos
15:56:02 <chuck> ehird: the logo was only up for a few minutes, I think
15:56:12 <chuck> I checked google before and after, and it was up, but then 30 minutes later it was down
15:56:18 <ehird> hi chuck, haven't seen you before
15:56:40 <ais523> I don't remember seeing chuck talk here before
15:56:44 <ais523> although it's a common enough name
15:56:51 <ais523> chuck: what brings you here
15:56:55 <chuck> hi ehird and ais523
15:57:05 <chuck> i dunno, i just had this window open and I thought I'd look to see what it was ^_^'
15:57:16 <ais523> clicked on a link here by mistake?
15:57:28 <ehird> we should googlebomb Barack Obama to this place or something
15:57:31 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Say something impressive, fungot
15:57:31 <fungot> Say something impressive, fungot
15:57:42 <ehird> that contained the words
15:57:44 <ais523> Say something else impressive fungot!
15:57:45 <fungot> ais523: if that's not apparent without knowledge of a fuctional language. if only inequalities are supported in gauche's native encoding?
15:57:50 <ehird> "we", "should", "bomb", "barack", "obama"
15:57:52 <ehird> should we be worried?
15:58:23 * chuck sucks at brainfuck and all other esoteric langs.
15:58:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* lovecraft pa speeches ss wp
15:58:32 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
15:58:41 <chuck> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++++<-]>.
15:58:42 <ais523> fungot: let's mess with this style a bit more, I haven't seen it for a while
15:58:43 <fungot> ais523: the j-intercal implementation of this sentence was going to write a portable program.
15:59:04 <ais523> fungot: obviously, it changed its mind
15:59:05 <fungot> ais523: e621 error type 621 encountered at runtime.
15:59:17 <fungot> ehird: the parentheses here are those that the c-intercal compiler, what operating system. however, a compiler). the dormant thread in which it would be allowed by placing them between' and other such system libraries. if you do somehow find a copy onto the code to be precise, in situations where a group is opened inside an array subscript
15:59:34 <ais523> fungot: that makes considerably less sense than before...
15:59:35 <fungot> ais523: the clc-intercal compiler, but an attempt to mix those with intercal) are created by multiple `come from's or `next from'.
16:00:05 <ais523> do we have any esobots in here at the moment, other than fungot?
16:00:06 <fungot> ais523: this is to allow abstaining from the previous character code, and anywhere that c source code form; this means that before using it, create a choicepoint is created containing the syntax is
16:00:32 <chuck> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++<-]>.>++++++++++[>++++<-]>+.
16:01:15 <ehird> chuck: fungot is written in befunge-98
16:01:16 <fungot> ehird: this restriction was not implemented at all by most mainstream languages. the explanation is in clc-intercal ( which deprecates `next'.)
16:01:32 <ehird> chuck: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
16:01:33 <fungot> ehird: however, this means that the number, and j-intercal. computed `come from' behaviour, the most recent existing version.
16:02:00 <ais523> wow, it's only after watching fungot chatter for a while that I realise how concerned I was with portability when writing the INTERCAL manual
16:02:01 <fungot> ais523: using gnu tar tar xzvf ick-0-29.pax.gz or tar xqvf ick-0-29.pax.bz2 tar xvf ick-0-29.pax or bunzip2 ick-0-29.pax.bz2 tar xvf ick-0-29.pax or gunzip ick-0-29.pax.gz tar xvf ick-0-29.pax or bunzip2 ick-0-29.pax.bz2 tar xvf ick-0-29.pax
16:02:27 <ais523> I'm /almost/ tempted to try to run that command
16:02:35 <chuck> i know someone that wrote an extension of brainfuck to write a brainfuck bot that parses brainfuck
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16:06:28 <ehird> my hostname just got cahnged behind my back
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16:08:24 <ais523> ehird: what was it, and what is it now?
16:08:40 <ehird> was bournemouth, and os x changed it to elliott-hirds-imac behind my back somehow.
16:08:53 <ais523> that's a ridiculous change
16:09:02 <ehird> ah, I see why it happened
16:09:08 <ehird> technically, it shouldn't have persisted past the upgrade anyway
16:09:12 <ehird> so it working was just a fluke
16:10:05 <ehird> sudo ed /etc/hostconfig; $; a; HOSTNAME=bournemouth; .; w; q
16:10:15 <ehird> guess I have to restart, grumble
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16:12:16 <ehird> ais523: why "ed?"?
16:13:00 <ais523> it seems strange for you to use for a quick edit
16:13:09 <ais523> given that vi is almost certainly available, and has all the same commands
16:13:21 <ehird> vi does not have an identical command-set
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16:42:01 <ehird> i wonder why anyone uses the gnu userland
16:42:15 <ais523> because it has so many random useful features?
16:42:24 <ehird> random, yes, useful, uh...
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16:44:16 <ehird> grr, organizing ~/Code is hard
16:44:29 <ehird> I just have so many random projects that I dunno how to avoid having 1,000+ directories in it
16:45:11 <ehird> I have ~/Code/esolangs now but I dislike i t
16:45:16 <ais523> and separate directories for non-eso projects
16:45:32 <ehird> ditto, but you don't understand how many projects I have
16:45:47 <ais523> how many are started and quickly abandoned?
16:46:01 <ehird> % ls /Previous\ Systems.localized/2009-02-11_1200/Users/ehird/Documents/Code|wc -l
16:46:22 <ehird> (% ls -R /Previous\ Systems.localized/2009-02-11_1200/Users/ehird/Documents/Code|wc -l, on the other hand, hasn't terminated yet.)
16:46:37 <ehird> (note: I do have some downloaded projects in here, but even so)
16:46:41 <ehird> (as in, not my code)
16:47:43 <ais523> $ ls -R /home/ais523/esoteric/ | wc -l
16:47:52 <ais523> that's cheating, though, I think
16:48:01 <ais523> I'm pretty sure there's at least one gcc source tree in there somewhere, possibly two
16:49:16 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:49:36 <ehird> wow, we last changed our topic days ago
16:50:08 -!- ehird has set topic: 07:38:13 --- topic: set to '#esoteric. THEY are the (not so secret) world goverment. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.' by ehird.
16:50:23 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric. THEY are the (not so secret) world goverment. http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page..
16:50:35 <ehird> (technically, the logs are on bespin.org; tunes.org just happens to be hosted on bespin
16:53:05 <ehird> hmm, wonder what I should write el ircd in
16:54:04 <ais523> it's pretty high-level as esolangs go
16:54:19 <ais523> that isn't even an esolang, technically speaking
16:55:36 <pikhq> It's more of a domain-specific language, really.
16:56:19 <ais523> grr... why does redcode not have preincrement
16:59:06 <ais523> or a command to make programs work backwards, that would work just as well
17:08:09 <ehird> btw, I discussed an OISC corewar with impomatic
17:08:15 <ehird> we couldn't find an OISC that could do an imp in one instruction
17:08:40 <ais523> OISC corewar, I love it
17:09:09 <ehird> ais523: yep, it has several odd requirements
17:09:10 <ais523> there are MOV-based OISCs, with memory-mapped instruction pointers and arithmetic
17:09:17 <ais523> they could do imps, but not much else easily
17:09:19 <ehird> that's just cheating
17:09:24 <ehird> it's just moving instructions into memory
17:09:33 <ais523> ehird: it's how WireWorld was proved a bounded-storage machine
17:09:35 <ehird> anyway, all addresses have to be relative to the ip
17:09:37 <ehird> stuff like that is fun :D
17:09:56 <ais523> what about a MiniMAX corewar?
17:10:25 <ais523> probably wouldn't work, because you can't safely read or write to any element in MiniMAX unless you have a nearby known instruction
17:13:02 <ehird> ais523: what were your BF joust ideas? I'm working on my own hill
17:13:17 <ehird> with a web interface that DOESN'T require you select each competitor manually...
17:13:27 <ehird> I'm also thinking of it showing a view of the tape
17:13:35 <ehird> with your competitor's current cell highlighted
17:13:39 <ais523> pretty much here, I was planning mostly the tape view
17:13:50 <ais523> except I was planning something that showed both programs, as more of a practice thing
17:13:58 <ehird> I was asking your ideas for the mechanics.
17:14:45 <ais523> same as before, except . is explicit NOP, tape length is from 10 to 50 inclusive (uniform distribution), you lose if your flag is at 0 at the end of two consecutive cycles (it can be -+ or something in between)
17:15:09 <ais523> if Goethe's unwilling to make it official, I'll happily play you at it unofficially
17:15:24 <ehird> I like those, except for explicit NOP I'm probably making any non-BF char a nop
17:17:54 <ais523> then you can't have comments easily
17:18:13 <ais523> and if you think about it, a . is a one-cycle nop if you have "output" but it isn't connected to anything
17:18:27 <ehird> ais523: comments are useless
17:18:32 <ehird> since others won't see them
17:18:37 <ehird> also, this is useful for a nano hill
17:18:41 <ehird> i.e., you can do length limits sanely
17:18:55 <ais523> ah yes, I was going to propose a relatively small length limit
17:19:24 <ehird> I'm going to have multiple hills, probably
17:19:29 <ehird> Free-for-all unlimited classical hill
17:19:39 <ais523> if you have arbitrary-length programs that are limited to only run for a finite length of time, you can do if(*p==0), if(*p!=0), while(*p==0), and while(*p!=0) each in one cycle
17:19:49 <ais523> but the program ends up massively long because it needs to be duplicated a lot
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17:20:38 <ehird> not in one cycle...
17:20:40 <ehird> cycle = instruction
17:20:51 <ais523> yes, in one cycle, for the branch
17:20:58 <ais523> you have to unroll the while loops
17:21:34 <ehird> in my scoring, btw,
17:22:08 <ehird> ,[.,] with input "abc" would take 9 cycles
17:22:30 <ehird> , [ . , ] . , ] . , ]
17:22:45 <ehird> err, that's 11 cycles
17:22:50 <ais523> remember to implement defined semantics for simultaneous ] with +
17:23:00 <ais523> it doesn't matter what they are, but they should be fair and consistent
17:23:17 <ais523> if one program runs ] and the other one runs +, should the ] test the original or incremented value?
17:23:33 <ehird> hmm, I don't think ] should execute each loop cycle
17:23:35 <ehird> I think it should be
17:23:41 <ehird> , [ . , [ . , [ . , ]
17:23:44 <ehird> yeah, that makes sense
17:23:49 <ehird> [ = start of loop iteration
17:24:18 <ais523> ehird: that doesn't really make sense from a programmatic point of view, though
17:24:22 <ais523> also, it doesn't really matter
17:24:29 <ehird> yes, I'm trying for purity here
17:25:11 <ehird> ais523: it'd check the original value
17:25:17 <ehird> since ] is never actually executed in my expansion ther
17:25:28 <ehird> and by the time [ is executed, we've already decided to loop again
17:25:53 <ehird> you could argue that you should never hit a [ when the current cell will be 0 inside the loop
17:26:40 <ehird> , [ . , ] . , ] . , ] is a better semantic, then
17:26:53 <ehird> ,[.,] with no input should be ,]
17:26:56 <ehird> as an execution path, I think
17:26:58 <ehird> ais523: do you agree?
17:27:15 <ais523> and the [ jumps to after the ]
17:27:17 <ehird> I think that nop loops should cost one cycle, even though they do nothing, since the checking of the current cell is some computation
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17:27:24 <ehird> ais523: ah, agreed
17:28:00 <ehird> so the formal semantics of [ are "loop started, jump past end of ] after checking if = 0"
17:28:09 <ehird> and the formal semantics of ] are "jump back to ["
17:28:11 <ehird> but that'd actually make it
17:28:17 <ehird> , [ . , ] [ . , ] [ . , ]
17:28:24 <ehird> which, while pretty, is costly
17:28:25 <ais523> no, the formal semantics of ] are "jump to the right of the matching ] if != 0"
17:28:40 <ehird> read that sentence
17:29:06 <ehird> that duplication of logic irritates me
17:29:19 <ehird> only one instruction should be operated each loop tick, and it should be the only instruction that can check for cell value
17:29:42 <ais523> that duplication of logic is a common way to do BF looping, though
17:29:52 <ais523> and it's the neatest way IMO, being symmetrical
17:29:59 <ehird> i know, but that's not pure
17:30:02 <ais523> otherwise you need 0-cycle jumps and other stupidities like that
17:30:17 <ais523> and what do you mean "not pure", testing both ends seems pretty pure to me
17:30:19 <ehird> each command should be completely separate from the rest
17:30:22 <ais523> your version has [ and ] doing different things!
17:30:27 <ehird> i.e., no commands should duplicate the purpose of another command
17:30:38 <ehird> thus, only one command should do "check the value of the current cell"
17:30:54 <ais523> [ and ] are opposites; [ jumps on zero, ] jumps on nonzero
17:31:07 <ehird> right, but they both make a jump depending on the current cell
17:31:09 <ais523> just like only one command should do "change the value of the current cell", or "change the location of the pointer"?
17:31:12 <ehird> and that duplication makes the instruction set less pure
17:31:19 <ais523> BF has always had /two/ commands doing anything in particular, which are opposites
17:31:23 <ehird> ais523: we're assuming bignum here, because it's also pure
17:31:30 <ais523> ehird: what? in BF Joust? are you mad?
17:31:40 <ehird> I'm coming up with cycle semantics for brainfuck that are pure
17:31:45 <ehird> and then applying them to joust
17:32:00 <ais523> your definition of pure is ridiculous, you may as well eliminate - and < if you're going that way
17:32:16 <ehird> with bignums, + and - cannot replace each other. and with a non-wrapping tape, < and > cannot either.
17:32:35 <ais523> and [ and ] cannot replace each other either!
17:32:40 <ais523> you clearly need both of them for a loop
17:32:52 <ais523> they are both, at heart, conditional jump instructions
17:33:09 <ehird> still, they both check the value of the current cell and jump based on it
17:33:13 <ais523> and there's no reason to break symmetry by implementing [ as "jump to ] and test there" or ] as "jump to [ and test there"
17:33:14 <ehird> I think only one of them should do that
17:33:34 <ais523> what I'm saying is, an unconditional jump is a lot less pure than a conditional jump, if there's only one thing you can unconditionally jump to and that's a conditional jump
17:34:09 <ehird> i don't want an unconditional jump
17:34:18 <ehird> as I said, I want only one command to be executed each cycle
17:34:26 <ehird> Currently, I'm tempted to have ] never actually execute
17:34:38 <ehird> ,[.,] with no input = , [
17:34:50 <ehird> ,[.,] with input "abc" = , [ . , [ . , [ . ,
17:34:55 <ais523> and the jump-at-each-end semantic is clearly the neatest, most symmetrical and purest way to do that
17:35:07 <ais523> if you like, think of [ as for jumping forwards and ] as for jumping backwards
17:35:17 <ais523> just like you need both < and >, you need to be able to jump both forwards and backwards
17:35:28 <ehird> hmm, I'm tempted to have ] execute in one case:
17:35:33 <ehird> when the loop ends, [ jumps onto the ]
17:35:35 <ehird> ,[.,] with no input = , [ ]
17:35:37 <ehird> ,[.,] with input "abc" = , [ . , [ . , [ . , ]
17:36:05 <ais523> ugh, that's wasting a cycle for no good reason
17:36:09 <ais523> ,[.,] with no input = , [
17:36:18 <ais523> ,[.,] with input "abc" = , [ . , ] . , ] . , ]
17:36:41 <ais523> by your definition, ,[.,] with input "abc" would be , [ . , [ , [ . , [ ]
17:36:58 <ais523> "when the loop ends, [ jumps onto the ]"
17:36:59 <ehird> itd be , [ . , [ . , [ . , ]
17:37:04 <ehird> when the loop ENDS
17:37:07 <ehird> as in, no more iterations
17:37:13 <ais523> so, in other words, ] tests its argument, but only if it's 0
17:37:19 <ais523> if its argument isn't 0, the [ runs instead
17:37:28 <ais523> well, what's testing the argument, then?
17:37:32 <ais523> does the test materialise out of thin air?
17:38:41 <ais523> I don't get how you can claim that all this is purer than my method
17:38:53 <ehird> [17:36:09] <ais523> ,[.,] with no input = , [
17:38:56 <ehird> this is wrong, IMO
17:39:04 <ehird> it's too cheap for a not-running loop
17:39:05 <ais523> the . and , inside the loop never run
17:39:10 <ehird> I think a not running loop should cost two cycles
17:39:14 <ais523> it's exactly as cheap as it ought to be
17:39:21 <ais523> and I bet you in Goethe's rules, a nonrunning loop costs one cycle
17:39:30 <ais523> a not running loop is an if, it should only cost one cycle
17:39:42 <ais523> say b is false, should that if really cost two cycles
17:40:53 <ehird> loop starting & loop ending should both be one cycle, after all, that's symmetric isn't it?
17:41:02 <ais523> loop skipping should also be one cycle
17:41:13 <ais523> ehird: how many cycles should loop iterating be?
17:41:23 <ais523> so loop skipping should also be 1
17:41:28 <ais523> execute 0 times = 1 cycle
17:41:32 <ais523> execute 1 time = 2 cycles
17:41:38 <ais523> execute 2 times = 3 cycles
17:41:48 <ais523> you want the first two entries to both be 2 cycles, for some reason
18:01:14 <ehird> It looks like I'm on the road to writing my own mail client,
18:06:46 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:07:07 <ehird> hey Judofyr, what mail client do you use.
18:07:23 <Judofyr> ehird: gmail for personal, Mail.app for work
18:08:23 <ehird> I love gmail except it'd be nicer as a native app. so right now I'm clutching at straws to avoid learning Interface Builder & Cocoa & IMAP & POP to make my own damn client
18:09:59 <Judofyr> I wish gmail had proper tree-view (for mailing-lists)
18:10:12 <Judofyr> other than that, I'm pretty happy with it
18:10:21 <ehird> Judofyr: I've thought about that, and concluded that:
18:10:46 <ehird> the same conversation view, but with a thread-tree view to the side that auto-updates as you scroll (to select the current one), and lets you jump to somewhere in the thread,w
18:11:01 <ehird> (per-thread, ofc, since most of the time I doubt it'd be useful)
18:11:26 <ehird> Judofyr: I'd avoid using obj-c by using a binding.
18:11:40 <ehird> something like that.
18:11:57 <ehird> something like that.
18:12:16 <ehird> I just am desperately trying to avoid coding my own damn client.
18:12:32 <ehird> because I hate fussing around with gui code
18:12:38 <ehird> also, because IMAP sucks
18:12:44 <ehird> sup? yeah, but it's console based.
18:15:03 <ehird> in conclusion, software sucks
18:15:42 <Judofyr> I'm still surprised no-one has built The Perfect Mail Client
18:15:59 <ehird> I'm pretty sure people have trie
18:16:20 <ehird> Judofyr: the problem is that IMAP really, really sucks
18:16:25 <ehird> you can only use one folder at a time!
18:16:36 <ehird> also, imap is more or less completely incompatible with doing labels
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18:17:40 <ehird> gmail has it easy because they don't need to support things like imap
18:17:45 <ehird> well, they do support i t
18:17:48 <ehird> but they can just hack it in
18:17:55 <ehird> and natively use their own thing
18:21:48 <ehird> but yeah, ew making GUIs :(
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18:22:55 <ehird> yeah um shoes kind of doesn't really have the rich GUI components useful for making a fully-featured, native email client.
18:22:58 <ehird> you know. like toolbars
18:23:24 <Judofyr> true. shoes is much more about plain fun
18:23:34 <ehird> unfortunately email is very unfun
18:25:00 <ehird> a better path to making a client is to make a nice API for imap and suchlike then build a client on top, but unfortunately the client will almost certainly require a huge restructuring of the api that you did not anticipate...
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18:33:41 <ehird> oh wow, bloopsaphone is awesome
18:33:50 <ehird> http://github.com/why/bloopsaphone/tree
18:34:07 <Judofyr> heh, I just thought about it :P
18:36:25 <ehird> I am totally using this for a haccordian-like thing
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18:47:45 <oerjan> <ehird> data constructor
18:47:59 <ehird> but ++ at the start means it's a non-starter
18:48:07 <oerjan> my mind is going, i can feel it
18:48:23 <oerjan> ehird: i interpreted it as whether it could be a legal fragment
18:48:54 <oerjan> the ++ still needs to be redefined though
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18:53:50 <oerjan> lost connection to isp, hope that was just a one-time thing
18:54:36 <oerjan> was about to say: or you could redefine just .
18:54:59 <ehird> ++ S is inherently a type error
18:55:00 <ehird> since S is not [a]
18:56:35 <ehird> bloopsaphone is what I've wanted for aaages
18:58:45 <oerjan> <ais523> I reckon there'll be a huge panic about it in about 2035, and everything will be fixed in time
18:59:12 <oerjan> no, because no one but the geeks will be able to understand the fuzz, since it's not a BIG ROUND number
18:59:15 <ehird> ais523: http://github.com/why/bloopsaphone/blob/b6fc0c789e81574099169fbf498adfaed9130b8b/README
18:59:25 <oerjan> so no one will actually pay to fix it in time
19:00:19 <ais523> PHBs will know slightly more about computers back then
19:00:33 * oerjan is only playing a cynic for humorous purposes
19:00:34 <ais523> they'll hear about a doomsday on which computers will all stop working
19:00:43 <ais523> and beg their engineers to make sure they aren't caught up in it
19:01:20 <ehird> <ais523> back then <- overflow reference? :D
19:01:44 <ais523> my brain seems to place just-before-2038 as before today
19:01:50 <ais523> maybe because it's happened once already, in 2000
19:02:01 <ais523> although that one was relatively small
19:02:05 <ehird> i bet your brain uses 16-bit time_t
19:02:07 <ais523> incidentally, some 2038 bugs have already happened
19:02:12 <oerjan> hm except - islamic terrorists (or whatever replaces them) will sow misinformation to make the PHBs think it's all a hoax, and they're too stupid to understand who is right...
19:02:16 <ais523> due to someone who used 1 billion seconds to represent forever
19:03:06 <oerjan> by that time it might be the angry maldivian diaspora
19:03:11 <ais523> as for that bloopsaphone, I was really disappointed when Microsoft deprecated the API to do that
19:03:18 <ais523> it existed in win 3.1, still worked in 95
19:03:26 <ais523> but had stopped working by XP, which is annoying
19:03:42 <ais523> they wanted people to use a weird MIDI+WAV+video scripting language instead
19:03:53 <ais523> wait, that was working in 98
19:03:58 <ais523> but by XP, it was broken again
19:04:08 <ehird> wait, microsoft had an api to make chiptunes?
19:04:10 <ais523> it still "worked", but with a 10-second-or-so delay whenever you loaded a MIDI file
19:04:19 <ais523> ehird: only sort of tune there was back in win 3.1
19:04:24 <ais523> unless you had spiffy new gamind speakers
19:04:25 <ehird> ais523: oh, you mean pc speaker?
19:04:31 <ehird> nooo, bloopsaphone is much more
19:04:42 <ehird> it does polyphonic, synthesized sound, based on squarewaves and such
19:04:46 <ehird> so it sounds like the NES etc
19:04:53 <ais523> well, the BBC Micro did that
19:04:58 <ehird> (although you can make it do monophonic bleeps too, ofc)
19:05:02 <ais523> it even had an ENVELOPE command
19:05:58 <oerjan> <ehird> After all, if we can understand intelligence smarter than us, that's a paradox. We'd have to be that smart.
19:06:19 <oerjan> i think that paradox only applies to understanding so finely that you can simulate it in your head
19:07:32 <oerjan> also, it could be a large team of humans working on it, who would of course have access to all kinds of computer resources to improve their own reach
19:12:35 <oerjan> <ais523> I want to write an IRC client in INTERCAL
19:12:46 <ais523> I have all sorts of ideas for interesting features
19:12:55 <ais523> such as a /swapnick command which swaps nicks with someone without anyone knowing
19:13:01 <ais523> (working by piping messages through each other's clients)
19:13:07 <oerjan> i was going to say "that way lies madness", but then i realized madess has been far surpassed before you begin :D
19:13:31 <ais523> ehird: do you really have to ask why?
19:13:44 <ais523> but the actual reason is Claudio mentioned the possibility in an email, and I've been wondering about it ever since
19:14:00 <ehird> i don't get what the usecase is
19:18:03 <oerjan> to spread madness, of course
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19:22:35 * kerlo transfers a credibility point from ehird to oerjan
19:23:16 <oerjan> BWAHAHAHA soon i shall have enough credibility to be voted in as World Dictator
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19:23:28 <oerjan> then i will resign, too much work
19:24:04 <oerjan> too bad i was not the first. maybe i should cleanse all evidence of Dogbert's existence from the world before resigning.
19:25:29 <oerjan> i will also advise all world scientists to work _hard_ on creating a mind sweeping device before my inauguration, otherwise the cleansing will be far messier.
19:25:51 <kerlo> What do you mean by "mind sweeping device"?
19:25:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:26:07 <oerjan> kerlo: you will forget you ever asked that
19:26:33 <Sgeo> What did kerlo ask?
19:26:47 <oerjan> nothing of importance.
19:27:06 <oerjan> i would advise against that.
19:27:26 <Sgeo> You really need a log erasing device
19:29:18 <oerjan> also, once the Tunes operating system develops sentience (as it obviously needs to iirc), it will be only too happy to cleanse the logs for me.
19:31:07 <oerjan> iirc for remembering what Tunes is supposed to be
19:32:20 <oerjan> imo is unnecessary as my opinion is always right, iirc
19:33:32 <oerjan> as a World Dictator i will be an infinitely wise and fair judge who just happens not to quite recall correctly what the defendants did
19:34:21 <oerjan> maybe the scientists would be well advised to work on a memory preservation device, as well
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19:35:24 * oerjan realizes he just committed a first degree split infinitive above
19:35:24 <ehird> oerjan: tunes isn't aiming for sentience
19:35:40 <oerjan> no, but their goals require it, iirc
19:36:16 <oerjan> DON'T DOUBT ME, FILISTINE
19:36:43 * ehird poops on oerjan's face
19:36:44 <oerjan> hm i think the swatter shall be in my world empire flag
19:37:32 <Sgeo> Is Tunes even active?
19:37:39 <Sgeo> Is anyone actually working on it?
19:37:48 <Sgeo> That reminds me, I'm going to check on OSMP
19:37:50 <ehird> They never got past planning.
19:38:03 <ehird> Sgeo: "As of 2008, the project was no longer active. Most developers shifted focus to development of open source software compatible with Second Life.
19:38:14 <Sgeo> http://metaverse.sourceforge.net/
19:38:35 <Sgeo> OSMP isn't compatible with SL, iirc
19:38:39 <ehird> "David Madore's explanation of TUNES"
19:38:44 <ehird> david madore = unlambda inventor!
19:39:08 * kerlo allies with oerjan
19:39:16 <Sgeo> The last post on the OSMP forums was in 2007..
19:39:53 <ehird> [[I am François-René Rideau, a one-man think tank from France, and the author of several libertarian websites [1]. I am very honored to be speaking before this audience today, especially so in a session dedicated to the memory of Ayn Rand. ]]
19:39:56 <ehird> -- Founder of TUNES
19:40:11 <ehird> i don't wanna know what an objectivist OS would look like
19:40:18 <ehird> processes fighting processes for resources! :D
19:40:23 <ehird> selling their resources to other processors!
19:40:33 <oerjan> i guess that explains why it never got off the ground :D
19:40:35 <ehird> Sgeo: http://fare.tunes.org/liberty/sofia2005.html
19:41:36 <ehird> suffers from other delusions also: http://tunes.org/~do/
19:43:03 <ehird> "I've accumulated ideas for a short libertarian comic strip, and I am looking for an artist to illustrate them. If I can't find one, I may buy myself a tablet and try to draw my own stick-figure comic strip..."
19:43:22 <kerlo> Everyone's looking for an artist.
19:43:31 <ehird> especially libertarians
19:43:43 <kerlo> I'm an artist! You'll have to supply the Play-Doh, though; I don't have any on me.
19:44:24 <kerlo> Also, I hope photographs of Play-Doh will be sufficient.
19:45:49 <kerlo> Also, keep in mind that I have no actual sculpting experience.
19:47:01 <oerjan> given this is a libertarian, he should expect to pay for an artist, no?
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19:51:19 <oerjan> would that be a lolcat version of haskell?
19:52:13 <oklofok> there's crap on my floor. i mean actual crap.
19:52:20 <oklofok> does that answer your question?
19:52:48 <oerjan> well that doesn't sound pure
19:53:02 <kerlo> Crap from what species?
19:53:10 <oerjan> or are you implying cats and purity are incompatible?
19:53:32 <oerjan> i sincerely hope not human
19:53:35 <kerlo> And of the species within the crap, approximately what proportion are eukaryotic?
19:54:35 <oklofok> all your questions are nice and valid.
19:54:38 <oerjan> more importantly, what proportion are multicellular
19:55:26 <oerjan> as it would be important to know if the source has intestinal worms
19:55:34 <oklofok> i mean i take her out, walk with her for like a km, come home, and she craps on my floor
19:58:56 * oerjan is more a dog than a cat person, really. not that he would trust himself with being responsible for either.
20:01:20 <oklofok> i'm more of a cat person, but really i'm more of a rodent person, mostly a bat/lizard person i guess
20:01:40 <oklofok> i mean staring contests with lizards
20:02:00 <oklofok> i mean squirrels, cats and hares i can win easily
20:02:16 <oklofok> but lizards can do it for hours on end
20:02:32 <oerjan> cats? there goes my stereotype.
20:03:02 <ehird> Fuck I think I broke my speakers
20:03:24 <oerjan> i thought cats were invincible starers, but admittedly i probably got it from comics
20:03:46 <oklofok> clearly you have no idea how competitive i am
20:04:28 <oerjan> do like me, keep your sound off nearly at all times
20:04:29 <Sgeo> Why is http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=39 so broken?
20:05:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:06:23 <oerjan> Sgeo: it's actually an inside joke relating to their other "comic"
20:07:00 <oerjan> um, how come you don't know? or have i been trolled?
20:07:19 <ais523> isn't it theoretically impossible to troll oerjan?
20:07:26 <Sgeo> ....I even went to view image, and failed to realize that that wasn't a 404?
20:07:27 <ais523> as in, if someone would troll oerjan, it platonically doesn't happen?
20:07:49 -!- ais523 has changed nick to self.
20:07:53 -!- self has changed nick to ais523.
20:08:35 <Sgeo> So Comments on a Postcard is a fake non-existent image?
20:08:36 <oerjan> ehird: well it's too late to close the barn once the cows have run away. or something.
20:08:55 <oerjan> Sgeo: it's a _series_ of them.
20:09:09 <ais523> why would the cows run away? they have a nice warm barn, in this weather?
20:09:11 <oerjan> the actual content is the annotation
20:09:26 <oerjan> ais523: well this may apply more during summer
20:11:47 <oerjan> Sgeo: also, it's a collaborative "comic", see the forum
20:12:10 <oerjan> so don't expect too much consistency
20:21:04 <Sgeo> "According to an analysis of your IP address, you access this site from a computer located in the Langerhans Islets. In accordance with Langerhans Islets pornography laws, individual pictures will not be displayed."
20:21:23 <ais523> that's a ridiculous error message
20:21:30 <Sgeo> http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php
20:21:53 <ais523> especially as I don't know of any Langerhans Islets that have been allocated any IP addresses at all
20:22:01 <ehird> <ais523> what is a joke
20:22:13 <oerjan> ais523: it's only a matter of time, really.
20:22:26 <oerjan> although it probably should be v6
20:23:07 <ais523> ehird: it's you who missed the joke
20:23:44 <oerjan> ehird never lets a joke get in the way of being cynical
20:24:13 <Sgeo> Who is this L person?
20:24:28 <Sgeo> They do Dudley's Dungeon stuff, Uncyclopedia, and now Comments on a Postcard?
20:24:32 <Sgeo> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1889&sid=fd393ac5c6eba0191cead4a4c37d8351
20:24:55 <ehird> Because, um, L is a totally uncommon nick.
20:24:58 <ehird> Who would pick that??
20:24:58 <ais523> it could be more than one person, each calling themselves L
20:25:09 <ais523> the whole [[WP:SLG]] stuff got quite controversial before it was deleted
20:25:10 <Sgeo> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Zork_Implementor_L
20:25:23 <ais523> it was basically a group of people who all renamed themselves to have single-letter usernames
20:25:25 <ehird> that's not even freaking L, Sgeo
20:25:26 <oerjan> "total posts: 16", not a regular
20:25:28 <ehird> that's Zork Implementor L.
20:25:55 <ehird> ais523: I bet there's some hyper-christian registered as †
20:26:14 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/† Well, yes.
20:26:19 <ais523> single-character non-ASCII names have been banned for a while
20:26:25 <ais523> but clearly someone registered as that beforehand
20:27:48 <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/1003289.html
20:28:36 <oerjan> correction: not an _old_ regular, seems quite active
20:30:09 * ehird iterates a binary pangram
20:30:23 <ehird> where X = number of 0s and Y = number of 1s, ofc
20:32:21 <oerjan> hm wait of course it must end in a cycle
20:32:32 <oerjan> since too long ones will be shortened
20:32:42 <ehird> well, it could be XXXX0YYYY1.
20:33:07 <oerjan> i assumed the number of X's and Y's were dependent on the numbers
20:33:38 <ehird> oerjan: the length of XXX0YYY1 = 8, and 3 binary digits can add up to 7
20:33:58 <oerjan> oh well, you get a cycle anyhow, it just makes the proof easier
20:34:17 <ehird> then I'll try trinary
20:34:28 <ais523> it might be a cycle of length 1
20:34:30 <oerjan> duh it's the case for any base
20:34:44 <ehird> well, pangrams work do they not?
20:34:45 <oerjan> indeed, i did not mean to imply anything about length
20:35:48 <oerjan> well there are pangrams, but i don't know whether there are some bases which don't happen to have any
20:36:54 <oerjan> it's not like checking ~ 36 possibilities is a big deal
20:37:26 <ais523> oerjan: 8 possibilities
20:37:43 <ais523> which can easily be brought down to 3 with a bit of common sense
20:37:58 <ais523> oerjan: because the number of 0s and the number of 1s add up to 8
20:38:03 <oerjan> well i brought it down to 36 first
20:40:00 <oerjan> but are there any with variable length length
20:43:12 * ehird makes it length 2 out of intererest
20:43:39 <ehird> length-2 cycles between
20:43:54 <ehird> that's one length too many.
20:44:12 <oerjan> and 0 in the wrong place
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20:52:13 <ehird> pangram of form XXXX0YYYY1
20:52:41 <ais523> a nice symmetrical one, as well
20:52:46 <ais523> how's the BF Joust implementation going?
20:52:56 <ehird> ais523: got sidetracked with this :-)
20:53:04 <ehird> (btw, in english, that pangram states "5 zeros, 5 ones")
20:59:31 <oerjan> i note none of the examples so far have lengths starting with 1, so won't work with variable length
21:00:52 <ehird> 100071032023014015016027018019
21:00:52 <ehird> 110081032023014015016017028019
21:01:21 <ais523> did you find those by iteration?
21:01:26 <ais523> also, some spaces might make it more readable
21:01:31 <ehird> they loop is the point
21:01:37 <ehird> i.e., they both loop to each other
21:01:40 * ehird tries length 3 decimal
21:01:43 <ais523> 11 0 08 1 03 2 02 3 01 4 01 5 01 6 01 7 02 8 01 9
21:01:57 <ais523> ehird: try messing with the starting point?
21:03:02 <oerjan> 110 1001, of course :)
21:04:14 <oerjan> i don't think there can be one that is both fixed and variable length
21:07:24 <oerjan> indeed the requirement to start with 1 makes the numbers too large for length > 3, and length 2 and 3 don't work either
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22:01:08 <ehird> haven't seen you here before
22:01:33 <Ortez> You have seen Zetro befor? ;)
22:02:00 <ais523> I don't remember a Zetro here either
22:02:04 <ehird> hmm, name rings a bell...
22:02:31 <ais523> oerjan: you're missing a backquote and several function definitions there
22:02:35 <Ortez> yes i have been on #corewars
22:02:53 <ais523> even if that's Lazy Bird not Unlambda, you're still missing a backquote
22:03:20 <ehird> I think oerjan has lost his mind (note: different from going insane.)
22:04:40 <ehird> Slereah: by the way, here's how you can do input in lazy bird:
22:05:20 <ehird> how does it do it currently?
22:05:36 <Slereah> Converts input into church numerals
22:05:43 <ehird> Slereah: like, how
22:06:03 <fungot> ais523: in intercal, programs other than variable ranges and expressions; in particular, this time setting the pins that are sending. however, the operands themselves are pattern templates specifying what precedences actually are. this explanation assumes that the number of 0 causes the current line; if you are not always right
22:06:07 <oerjan> ): aw spue+sjapun auo ou
22:06:07 <ehird> slereah: a plcaeholder
22:06:28 <ais523> fungot: what if I'm not always right?
22:06:35 <Slereah> Well, `_f would wait for input, and be replaced by like `33f
22:06:47 <ehird> Slereah: ah. and why doesn't this work?
22:07:14 <Slereah> Well, it works, but the problem is the order.
22:07:21 <ais523> it's the Lazy Bird equivalent of unsafePerformIO
22:07:25 <ehird> Slereah: ok, add this function:
22:07:27 <ais523> as in, it doesn't do what you expect
22:07:48 <ehird> `!xy -- when this is evaluated: forces the full evaluation of x, then evaluates to whatever y evaluates to
22:07:54 <Slereah> I was thinking of using >, such that `b`>a converts to `ba and then a is evaluated
22:09:10 <Slereah> But well, much like this language, I'm a bit lazy right now.
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22:26:15 -!- oklofok has changed nick to Oklopol.
22:28:21 <ehird> ## fucking imap fucking sucks. what the FUCK kind of committee of dunces
22:28:21 <ehird> ## designed this shit.
22:30:28 <MizardX> sum(imap(operator.mul,u,v))
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22:31:03 <GregorR_> My computer restarted for no reason. No power outage, just restarted.
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22:31:31 <Sgeo> What language is that?
22:31:59 <Sgeo> ah, didn't recognize the operator.mul thingy
22:32:38 <Oklopol> GregorR: just fyi, my vista never does that.
22:33:17 <GregorR> Oklopol: Yes, I strongly suspect this is a software problem, which is why I mentioned the software at all.
22:33:56 <ehird> what are the chars used for back/forward one word in terminals again?
22:34:53 <ais523> also, amazingly: it seems that there are some people in blognomic's IRC channels who have never seen various xkcd comics before
22:38:51 <Sgeo> Saturday classes meet 14 times during the semester and meet for 54 minutes of instruction for each hour of instruction.
22:39:35 <Sgeo> ais523, examples?
22:39:51 <ais523> the guaranteed-to-be-random dice-roll random number
22:40:03 <ais523> and there were comments implying that the people who it was linked to had never seen it
22:40:38 <Sgeo> Example comment?
22:41:00 <ehird> Sgeo: are you conducting a freaking scientific investigation on this matter? :P
22:41:13 <ais523> <Hix> That reminds me of http://xkcd.com/221/ <Devenger> awesome.
22:41:25 <Sgeo> What was the situation reminding Hix of that?
22:41:46 <ais523> me talking about how ehird was trying to get control over random numbers in B Nomic
22:42:28 <ais523> by replacing the dice server with your own email address, surely you remember that?
22:42:41 <ehird> comex proposed that, ais523
22:42:55 <ehird> can you drop the mental association you obviously have of "b nomic & bad => elliott did it"? kthx
22:43:12 <ais523> I'm sure you were complicit
22:43:31 <ehird> ais523: no, I laughed at it and it never got on a ballot.
22:44:11 <kerlo> I think this channel is an appropriate place to discuss the most expensive ways to die.
22:44:40 <kerlo> Execution by firing squad, with guns loaded with Faberge eggs.
22:44:58 <ehird> irritating kerlo so that he talks to you so much you die
22:45:05 <ehird> ais523: it's kerlo. just go along with it.
22:45:07 <Oklopol> kerlo: this is not the place for that
22:45:13 <ehird> Oklopol: whyever not
22:45:17 <Oklopol> i'll just tell you it's trivial to spend any amount of money on it.
22:45:49 <kerlo> That does sound expensive, as I'm not all that irritable.
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22:46:07 <Oklopol> also this O thing isn't working for me
22:46:09 -!- Oklopol has changed nick to oklopol.
22:46:16 <oklopol> i'm not a very upper case person i guess :|
22:46:42 <oklopol> so ais523 where are you ircing from, is the university open at this hour?
22:48:39 <oerjan> kerlo: wait, aren't faberge eggs a bit larger than bullets?
22:48:44 <ehird> Sends a NOOP command to the server. It does nothing.
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22:52:22 <oerjan> also, i would suggest burning at the stake on a bonfire made of thousand dollar bills
22:53:20 <kerlo> oerjan: the guns have to be made out of resilin.
22:54:50 <oerjan> also, i think the LHC black hole would turn out rather expensive, all damage included
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22:55:51 <oerjan> it seems this has to end up with destroying the universe somehow. try a false vacuum collapse.
22:56:14 <kerlo> Exploding due to an antimatter overdose.
22:57:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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22:59:20 <kerlo> Heavy metal poisoning due to gold.
23:01:47 <Sgeo> false vacuum collapse sounds fun
23:02:40 <ehird> GregorR: what's that life-ruining video again
23:02:44 <kerlo> Buying the United States Army and ordering them to shoot you.
23:03:02 <ais523> how much would it cost to buy the US army, I wonder?
23:03:15 <ehird> ais523: I don't imagine it is for sale.
23:03:29 <oklopol> taking so many coins they collapse into a black hole
23:03:33 <oerjan> well first you'd have to buy congress, which is easy
23:03:36 <GregorR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-k9C3v9Ng0&feature=channel_page
23:03:54 <pikhq> Name any price, it's probably a low guess.
23:04:04 <oklopol> writing such an amount of zeroes on a check the amount of paper collapses into a black hole
23:04:06 <ais523> ehird: exactly, that's why it would have to be expensive
23:04:24 <oklopol> ^ easy to generalize the exponential growth in cost there
23:04:25 <pikhq> oklopol: High guess, though they're probably not going to take the offer anyways.
23:05:22 <GregorR> ehird: Enjoy your miserable depression!
23:05:40 <ehird> GregorR: I gave the link to someone else, so it's OK.
23:05:46 <ehird> They can be sad too.
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23:14:35 <ais523> ehird: you might like this webpage: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/controls.htm#CONTROLS53
23:14:46 <ais523> it's all about interface design stupidities
23:15:45 <ehird> [[The folks at Ryka, a manufacturer of women's shoes, wanted to be certain that no potential customers could be excluded. Thus, rather than providing option (or radio) buttons to indicate one's gender, they decided to use checkboxes, to allow the potential customer to indicate Male, Female, or, well, both, and for that matter, none. We found this especially interesting given the company motto, "Exclusively for women by women." Inclusiveness must be "in".]]
23:16:07 <ehird> um, ever heard of transgender etc?
23:16:10 <ehird> admittedly that's crap UI for that
23:16:29 <ais523> there are at least 4 transgender genders
23:16:38 <ais523> and that box doesn't let you specify which you are
23:16:48 <ais523> male/female/other is considered acceptable, though
23:16:54 <ehird> they should just not ask
23:16:57 <ais523> if you're even caring about gender, why would you do that?
23:17:03 <ehird> the company doesn't need to know my gender, so stop trying to dat amine
23:17:52 <ehird> "Cancel button before the OK button" <- heh, that's _good_ OS X design practice
23:18:07 <ais523> the main thing is to not contradict the conventions on your platform
23:18:34 <ais523> I would complain about a Gnome application which put cancel to the right, just as much as I'd complain about a KDE application which put cancel to the left
23:18:52 <ais523> Gnome is (optional alternate OK), Cancel, normal OK
23:19:50 <ais523> KDE has normal OK and cancel the other way round
23:23:40 <oklopol> almost left a typo in there :|
23:24:10 <oklopol> (btw for future reference, if someone notices a typo i've left uncorrected, please inform me.)
23:25:49 <ehird> "OzWin-specific commands, ^M^J in the text."
23:30:15 <oklopol> what's wrong with the three sorting fields thing
23:31:23 <oklopol> "there is no way to indicate that you want to sort on any less" <<< to indicate you do *not* want to specify how to sort if two values are equal? how useful!
23:31:46 <ais523> oklopol: what if you want to keep it stable?
23:32:37 <oklopol> but i don't see that as worse than just choosing one. of course, i guess some people might see is at kinda stupid.
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00:28:04 <ehird> Who here uses qmail? AnMaster?
00:28:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Impeccable timing.
00:29:13 <ehird> AnMaster: You got one second? Guess not.
00:29:38 <ehird> what imap server do you use with qmail?
00:29:55 <AnMaster> ehird, um I don't. I use maildir...
00:30:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Ah, you read mail directly on the server?
00:30:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm used to the pine/mutt/alpine family of mail clients yes
00:30:36 <ehird> How quaint. :p Thanks anyway :)
00:30:57 <AnMaster> ehird, also I hate MTAs, that is as long as they are working they are ok, but I hate sysadmining them
00:31:18 <ehird> Yes, that's why I'm trying to decide between qmail and letting google host my mail atm.
00:32:41 <AnMaster> ehird, qmail config is not as bad as sendmail config though
00:47:02 <psygnisfive> guys, i have a question you might have a worthwhile opinion on
00:48:03 <oklopol> i think you know what my answer is.
00:53:03 <psygnisfive> i have these things called glosses that represent a sort of annotated form of a sentence
00:53:33 <psygnisfive> and there are a number of standard orthographic forms used to annotate
00:53:46 <psygnisfive> i want to be able to integrate this into the database software im building tho
00:54:15 <psygnisfive> in which the standard orthgoraphic forms are representative of things in the database
00:55:11 * oklopol is too tired for big words
00:55:12 <psygnisfive> should i store the glosses as just strings like "F.B.Q" and require that searches work on the orthographic forms only
00:56:23 <psygnisfive> or should i make the glosses actually store pointers to the items in the DB instead of storing just strings of representation?
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01:56:09 <GregorR> Anybody want to play Cheskers?
01:58:29 <olsner> maybe you can play cheskers and I can be in the audience making fun of you?
01:59:56 <oklopol> is that some wacky game of yours?
02:00:23 <oklopol> right, right, for some reason god only knows, i thought it was a typo
02:01:33 <olsner> as in, interact with females?
02:02:17 <Sgeo_> Anyone want to play Arimaa?
02:02:18 <GregorR> No, he's just impersonating the word coed, so he'll be interacting with female impersonators.
02:02:36 <GregorR> Sgeo_: Oooh, I should add Arimaa support to my board game software ...
02:02:37 <olsner> sweet, pornstar and crazy-person.. I'm just missing two out of two
02:02:51 <Sgeo_> GregorR, what about legal issues?
02:03:21 <GregorR> Sgeo_: Has legality ever stopped me before? Bahahahahah!!!
02:03:32 <Sgeo_> GregorR, I have no clue, obviously
02:06:46 <Sgeo_> http://arimaa.com/arimaa/license/
02:06:56 <GregorR> Yeah, should be compatible.
02:07:03 <Sgeo_> http://arimaa.com/arimaa/license/current.txt
02:07:05 <GregorR> The software is F/OSS, but that's copyright, not patent ^^
02:08:14 <Sgeo_> "Some usage or distribution of Arimaa may be non-commercial, but also not fall
02:08:14 <Sgeo_> under the personal, educational and research (PER) category. For such cases a
02:08:14 <Sgeo_> written authorization must be obtained from Arimaa.com.
02:08:24 <Sgeo_> " * I want to freely distribute software that incorporates Arimaa. Such as
02:08:24 <Sgeo_> open source software that plays Arimaa.
02:09:44 <GregorR> Bah, why would somebody patent a game created for the purpose of testing the limits of AI. That's so stupid.
02:19:18 <pikhq> Yeah, that is the one dumb thing about Arimaa.
02:19:46 <pikhq> Really sad, since everything else about Arimaa is rather clever and smart...
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05:34:08 <oklopol> i have a palindrome embedded in my nick!
05:34:11 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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05:50:20 <oklopol> i was actually talking about the "o", but yeah i guess "lopol" is a palindrome as well
05:51:35 <psygnisfive> you have a wonderful ability to counter ones expectations
05:52:19 <oklopol> i do now? it's probably just the lack of sleepness.
05:53:09 <oklopol> i just made my first GC, and it was so trivial i'm a bit ashamed i did it.
05:53:30 <oklopol> two hours until the breakfast store opens
05:53:43 <oklopol> all i can do until then is troll irc channels by being my tired self
06:05:11 <GregorR> oklopol: Everyone has at least len(nick) trivial palindromes :P
06:05:42 <GregorR> oklopol: Conservative GC? Mark and sweep? Copying? Generational? Magic GC?
06:21:53 <bsmntbombdood> how does a conservative gc know how large objects are?
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06:49:44 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: It /is/ the allocator.
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07:02:16 <bsmntbombdood> like in memcached, they decided malloc() isn't good enough
07:04:03 <bsmntbombdood> and you still see things like obj_t objcache[128];
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09:14:39 <oerjan> <oklopol> i have a palindrome embedded in my nick!
09:14:53 <oerjan> me too! six of them in fact
09:15:34 <oerjan> forgot the empty string
09:16:18 <oerjan> <oklopol> i was actually talking about the "o", but yeah i guess "lopol" is a palindrome as well
09:16:34 <oerjan> no that's way to destroy my joke in advance
09:17:24 <oerjan> <GregorR> oklopol: Everyone has at least len(nick) trivial palindromes :P
09:17:53 <oerjan> maybe i _should_ start reading the rest of the logs before responding. nah.
09:20:09 <oerjan> also, that's technically correct only if you count duplicates, in which case it still isn't, should be 2*len(nick)+1
09:20:28 <oerjan> (empty strings all around)
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10:12:25 <oklopol> GregorR: oklopol: Conservative GC? Mark and sweep? Copying? Generational? Magic GC? <<< variant of m&s.
10:13:18 <oklopol> i would probably feel less dirty if it was something algorithmically contentful
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10:16:20 <oklopol> oerjan: there is an infinite amount of empty strings in every hole, isn't there?
10:19:22 <oklopol> counting duplicated may not be such a great ida
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10:30:52 <oerjan> oklopol: i assume you count only once per position...
10:31:22 <oerjan> otherwise it would get SILLY, and we wouldn't have THAT
10:31:28 <oklopol> ah, infinite amount, but they all have the same position, yes i guess that's solid logic
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11:32:18 <oklopol> d-d-d-d-D-D-D-DANNNNCE aLLLL nIGHT lONGGGGGGG
11:37:12 <dbc> Hi people.
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14:38:17 <ehird> [14:35:33] <oklopol> [05:53:09] i just made my first GC, and it was so trivial i'm a bit ashamed i did it.
14:38:23 <ehird> you're right that's trivial
14:38:27 <ehird> but, you know, it's fun.
14:38:37 <ais523> I wrote a GC for Overload a while back
14:38:53 <ais523> because the GC semantics are part of the language
14:38:58 <ehird> oklopol: gcs CAN be algorithmically contentful
14:39:00 <ais523> the first one was mark-and-sweep
14:39:04 <ehird> do it parallel, and generational
14:39:04 <ais523> and the second one was weird
14:42:41 <oklopol> well this is in c++, and it's just not fast enough to code in to be all that fun.
14:42:49 <oklopol> so i just made something simple that works.
14:43:32 <ais523> oklopol: did you make it for a reason, or just for fun?
14:43:38 <ais523> and which algorithm did you use?
14:43:48 <oklopol> and i didn't really use an algorithm
14:44:05 <ais523> well, the code has to be using some method to do it
14:44:10 <ais523> and even trivial algorithms have names
14:44:25 <oklopol> but i think it's mark-and-sweep
14:45:22 <ehird> mark and sweep is pretty much the most dumb thing ever
14:45:22 <oklopol> but you know giving mark-and-sweep a name is like naming different ways to call a function, it's just kinda stupid, since anyone will come up with it given the problem statement, there is absolutely no insight to it.
14:45:26 <ehird> it's no wonder gc had a bad rep
14:45:38 <ehird> oklopol: it's useful when talking about it
14:45:41 <oklopol> well different ways to call a function is a bad example.
14:45:43 <ehird> oh, debian 5 is out
14:45:46 <ais523> pass-by-value, pass-by-reference, pass-by-name
14:45:47 <oklopol> ehird: sure. i still don't like it.
14:45:57 <ehird> debian 5.0 "lenny"
14:46:00 <ais523> it's Lenny, and something like the ninth or tenthversion
14:46:04 <ehird> http://www.debian.net/News/2009/20090214.en.html
14:46:07 <ehird> " Debian GNU/Linux version 5.0"
14:46:10 <ais523> I wasn't even aware Debian had version numbers
14:46:14 <oklopol> ais523: yes, very bad example, also you could consider call conventions another categorization
14:46:24 <ais523> obviously, it must have version numbers that don't follow an obvious pattern
14:46:27 <oklopol> much more algorithmical insight to it
14:46:29 <ehird> ais523: I'm pretty sure Lenny and the like are just codenames, like Tiger and Leopard
14:46:38 <ehird> although apple are now marketing with those names, they didn't use to
14:46:50 <ais523> ehird: sort of, except that those names are the names of the repositories
14:47:03 <ehird> I bet internal apple code has "Leopard" in it, too
14:47:06 <ais523> the way it works is that a few weeks ago, "Lenny" was the testing repository
14:47:18 <ais523> "Lenny" is now the stable repo, and testing is "Squeeze"
14:47:30 <ais523> and those names are the names you actually have to give to the package manager for it to work
14:47:39 <ehird> ais523: I just looked it up, debian's gone:
14:47:44 <ehird> 0.x, 1.x, 2.x, 3.x, 4.x, 5.0
14:47:57 <ehird> so it's not the ninth or tenth release, they're just slooooow.
14:47:58 <oklopol> ais523: maybe a better example is something like insertion sort, sure it's useful to have a name for it, but it's not like anyone implements insertion sort, insertion sort is what you implement if you don't feel like thinking or reading and want to get the job done.
14:48:05 <ais523> so you can either say "stable" to automatically stay on the stable repo (which would upgrade from etch to lenny automatically)
14:48:15 <ehird> 4.0 was released april 2007
14:48:22 <ehird> so 5.0 is a positively fast release
14:48:24 <ais523> or say "etch", then it stays on etch until you tell it to upgrade to lenny
14:48:30 <ais523> (and etch is now the oldstable repo)
14:48:48 <ehird> http://www.debian.net/doc/manuals/project-history/ch-detailed.en.html#s4.6
14:48:55 <ehird> (Important Events section)
14:49:58 <ehird> ais523: what do you think debian will do when they run out of toy story names?
14:50:11 <ais523> persuade Disney to release Toy Story 3
14:50:31 <ehird> Erm, they're already making it :P
14:50:37 <ais523> there are still quite a lot they haven't used yet, though
14:53:21 <ehird> holy shit, linus uses _this kind of emphasis_ a lot
14:53:23 <ehird> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/217
14:54:24 <ehird> Other codenames that have been already used are: buzz for release 1.1, rex for release 1.2, bo for releases 1.3.x, hamm for release 2.0, slink for release 2.1, potato for release 2.2, woody for release 3.0, sarge for release 3.1, and etch for release 4.0.
14:54:35 <ehird> so the codename changes more frequently than the major release
14:54:46 <ehird> so this is the 10th release or thereabouts
14:54:50 <ais523> yes, I wonder what makes them decide whether a release is minor or major/
14:55:29 <ehird> well, they seem to be going for major release = codename, once every year and a half or so
14:55:39 <ehird> going by etch and this new one here
14:55:46 <ais523> major release = codename is necessary
14:55:51 <ais523> or their whole release process would fail
14:56:04 <ehird> not changing the codename on a minor release
14:56:07 <ehird> like they used to, as above
14:56:47 <ais523> what I mean is, there doesn't seem to be any way to tell whether a Debian release is minor or major, except from the version number
15:01:17 <ehird> I guess those minor releases were not that minor
15:01:29 <ais523> basically, the way Debian works
15:01:36 <ais523> is that they have unstable, which is cutting-edge
15:01:46 <ais523> and experimental, which is even more cutting-edge
15:01:59 <ais523> unstable contains the latest versions of whatever packages they're using
15:02:03 <ais523> so, say, the latest version of KDE 3
15:02:04 <ehird> When I used debian as a desktop OS I used sid
15:02:10 <ehird> because everything else was hopelessly slow
15:02:14 <ais523> whereas experimental contains the latest version of KDE 4
15:02:19 <ais523> because 4 isn't in mainstream yet
15:02:22 <ehird> unstable = testing, right?
15:02:26 <ehird> and experimental = unstable
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15:02:47 <ais523> if something's been in Debian unstable for a certain number of days and nobody reports a bug in it, it moves into testing
15:03:01 <ais523> the number of days depends on how serious the bug that fixed it was
15:03:08 <ais523> so, say when I release a new C-INTERCAL version
15:03:20 <ais523> it goes into unstable as soon as Debian package it, and into testing if nobody reports a bug after 8 days
15:03:25 <ais523> longer if there's a code-freeze on
15:03:48 <ais523> every so often, they gradually code-freeze testing
15:04:02 <ais523> and delays there get longer and longer, until they're only porting fixes for release-critical bugs
15:04:26 <ais523> when there are no release-critical bugs in testing, and there's a freeze at the time, it becomes the next stable version
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15:22:44 <dbc> Think I'll note again that in case anyone has a boardgamegeek membership, I've got an "esoteric language programmer" microbadge available. http://boardgamegeek.com/microbadge/7285
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15:31:51 <ais523> MIBBIT PLEASE STOP DOING THAT
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16:48:58 <GregorR> Heh, apparently there's a process called Electrowinning.
16:56:54 <ehird> Electrowinning, also called electroextraction, is the electrodeposition of metals from their ores that have been put in solution or liquefied. Electrorefining uses a similar process to remove impurities from a metal. Both processes use electroplating on a large scale and are important techniques for the economical and straightforward purification of non-ferrous metals. The resulting metals are said to be electrowon.
17:01:46 * ehird is working on a HIDEOUS ABOMINATION.
17:02:25 <ehird> Objectivist-C. Entities fight for processor and memory. More efficient producers (e.g., a prime checker using a better algorithm) end up killing other entities.
17:02:34 <ehird> All based on the C we know and love!
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17:09:03 <oerjan> <ais523> pass-by-value, pass-by-reference, pass-by-name
17:09:13 <oerjan> hm, are there any more esoteric ones, i wonder
17:10:17 <GregorR> Pass-by-arbiter. Rather than getting the object, you get an object that can access the original, but you have to access it through annoying proxy-like requests.
17:10:23 <oerjan> if there were, i'd expect INTERCAL to have incorporating some...
17:11:23 <oerjan> hm prototype OO falls under that, doesn't it
17:11:37 <ehird> oerjan: call by copy-restore
17:11:48 <ehird> call by macro expansion
17:12:10 <GregorR> call-by-copy-restore ought to be functionally indistinguishable from pass-by-reference
17:12:19 <oerjan> oh right, call by need i should have remembered
17:12:25 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_copy-restore
17:12:38 <oerjan> GregorR: not with concurrent programming
17:13:08 <GregorR> call-by-macro-expansion is effectively call-by-name
17:13:13 <ais523> oerjan: there's the method Feather uses
17:13:18 <oerjan> GregorR: i was going to ask that
17:13:24 <ais523> pass-readonly-by-value-or-reference-it-doesn't-matter
17:13:44 <ais523> and you can retroactively change the value of any object you were passed
17:13:54 <ais523> which causes it to change in the past, thus you get passed the new changed value
17:13:57 <ais523> so the object is always readonly
17:13:58 <ehird> call-by-macro-expansion is not call by name
17:14:04 <oerjan> ais523: well that applies to any pure language too like haskell
17:14:22 <ais523> although haskell doesn't retroactively change function arguments
17:14:33 <ehird> call-by-macro-expansion can access variables in its expander
17:14:37 <ehird> call-by-name can't
17:15:00 <ehird> ais523: in Haskell, every value is a function returning its value. after the first evaluation, it actually rewrites its own machine code into a trivial return
17:15:02 <ehird> so it's only evaluated once
17:15:31 <oerjan> i would be surprised if ais523 didn't already know that
17:15:37 <ais523> umm... that's in a particular implementation of Haskell, you mean
17:15:44 <ais523> nothing about the language suggests machine code is involved
17:15:46 <ehird> ais523: it's the standard way
17:15:56 <ais523> well, yes, it's sensible
17:15:57 <ehird> oerjan: he knows haskell, but doesn't seem to know much about its implementation
17:16:00 <ais523> that doesn't make it the only way, though
17:16:06 <ais523> ehird: more I don't care much about its implementation
17:16:10 <oerjan> well yeah, in _theory_ haskell can be faithfully implemented with call-by-name instead of need, i think
17:16:10 <ehird> it's just the fun, esoteric, efficient way
17:16:12 <ais523> because that doesn't affect use of the language
17:16:19 <ehird> oerjan: it just specifies "non-strict"
17:16:21 <ais523> and I wouldn't call it esoteric
17:16:31 <ehird> an auto-memoizing, auto-parallel call-by-need haskell would be valid
17:16:39 <ehird> and work apart from things like unsafePerformIO
17:16:42 <ehird> well, it'd work, just go haywire
17:17:07 <ais523> unsafePerformIO breaks the semantics of Haskell
17:17:14 <ais523> the 'unsafe' is there for a reason...
17:17:25 <ehird> unsafeCoerce is funner, though
17:17:33 <ais523> just like looking at the code of a function in Underlambda breaks its semantics
17:17:46 <ais523> you can do it by printing out a continuation and reading it in as text, but that's unsafeCamelCase
17:17:49 <ehird> in ghc, (unsafeCoerce () :: Double) gives you something like 3.2752
17:17:53 <ehird> instead of segfaulting
17:17:56 <ais523> what does unsafeCoerce do?
17:18:03 <ehird> ais523: unsafeCoerce :: a -> b
17:18:12 <ehird> <ais523> oh dear...
17:18:29 <ais523> it reminds me rather of the _cast operators in C++
17:18:37 <ehird> except more dangerous
17:18:43 <ais523> except those would crash if you tried to do an impossible coercion, even dynamic_cast<>
17:18:55 <ais523> and crash with an exception rather than segfault
17:18:55 <ehird> oh, it lets you segfault in haskell
17:19:04 <ehird> unsafeCoerce 3 :: Either () ()
17:19:09 <ais523> also, how does unsafeCoerce figure out what types its arguments are
17:19:10 <ehird> Left <hang...> <segfault>
17:19:15 <ehird> ais523: umm, it doesn't
17:19:22 <ehird> it just gives back the internal pointer data
17:19:26 <oerjan> ehird: obviously if you coerce into something with pointers in it
17:19:26 <ehird> ais523: you tag it
17:19:32 <ehird> (unsafeCoerce a :: TypeIWant)
17:19:46 <ehird> just like you can do (2+2 :: Integer)
17:20:27 <ais523> ehird: what does unsafeCoerce () return
17:20:41 <oerjan> ais523: meaningless question i think
17:20:52 <ehird> ais523: forall b. b
17:20:52 <ais523> well, it has to either return something or error
17:21:06 <ehird> (Num a) => forall a. a
17:21:10 <ais523> I wonder what value the interp prints, though
17:21:14 <ehird> ais523: it doesn't
17:21:18 <ehird> there's no instance for (Show (forall a. a))
17:21:21 <ehird> and you can't make one
17:21:25 <ehird> so you get a type error
17:21:36 <ais523> we need an unsafeShow, obviously
17:22:07 <oerjan> ais523: that requires the interpreter to have enough information, fortunately it probably has due to gc
17:22:19 <oerjan> to distinguish pointers at least
17:22:27 <ais523> you could just print out a hex representation or something
17:22:39 <ais523> or a series of Haskell commands that create the value that's there
17:22:45 <ehird> there's probably an unsafePointer# :: a -> Integer
17:23:16 <ais523> Perl has Data::Dumper::Dumper, you apply it to an object and get a series of commands to create that object
17:23:18 <ehird> i want an inefficient haskell impl that has a playground
17:23:34 <oerjan> ais523: yes but perl has dynamic types
17:23:51 <ehird> nativeCallCC :: ((a -> a) -> a) -> a
17:23:54 <ais523> Perl's more untyped than dynamically typed
17:24:16 <ehird> nativeCallCC (\f -> f 3 + 2) --> 3
17:24:31 <oerjan> callCC makes no sense in a non-strict language
17:24:37 <ais523> are you sure you got the type of nativeCallCC right?
17:24:44 <ehird> oerjan: sure it does
17:24:50 <ehird> ais523: err, it should be
17:25:12 <ais523> let's see... a continuation is of type a -> (), isn't it?
17:25:13 <ehird> oerjan: + forces its arguments (obviously), and when (f 3) is evaluated the current evaluation chain is given up
17:25:28 <ehird> [17:25:23] <ehird> :t callCC
17:25:28 <ehird> [17:25:25] <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (MonadCont m) => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
17:25:28 <ais523> well, it clearly doesn't return
17:25:40 <ehird> the reason I had a as the result is so you can use it in expressions like that
17:26:24 <oerjan> ais523: callCC has the type of pierce's [sp] law in boolean logic
17:26:27 <ais523> ehird: that's like making printf return an integer so you can do printf("Hello, world!\n") + printf("Bye!\n");
17:26:38 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/cheskers/client/cheskers.html# game 18, join as white
17:26:40 <ais523> that's not the reason printf returns an integer, and if it was it would be stupid
17:26:41 <ehird> ais523: it's useful because nativeCallCC (\x -> x 2) should be valid.
17:26:56 <ais523> oerjan: I've never heard of pierce's law
17:26:58 <ehird> GregorR: Loading...
17:27:12 <GregorR> ehird: Haven't tested it on Safari ... works on Konq :P
17:27:21 <ehird> GregorR: Just hangs at "loading".
17:27:26 <ais523> ehird: I don't think it should be valid, it's semantically nonsensical
17:27:33 <ehird> ais523: no it isn't
17:27:51 <ais523> what you've written there would translate into C as int func {return return 2;}
17:27:59 <ehird> ... I don't think you understand call/cc
17:28:09 <oerjan> ais523: it's one of the laws of boolean logic that aren't in intuitionistic logic
17:28:43 <ais523> a continuation doesn't return a value, by definition, so it doesn't make sense to make it return a value
17:29:01 <ehird> it returns the Void valu
17:29:05 <ehird> in haskell, (forall a. a)
17:29:07 <ais523> hmm... actually, giving it type forall b. a -> b would make sense
17:29:10 <ehird> this is standard, e.g.:
17:29:14 <ehird> error :: forall a. String -> a
17:29:27 <ehird> haha wow, in Ruby 1.9 you can use λ to make a proc
17:29:30 <ehird> (that's a unicode lambda)
17:29:38 <ais523> the physical unicode character?
17:29:42 <ais523> they're stealing from INTERCAL!
17:29:49 <oerjan> ais523: oh wait, it's ((P -> Q) -> P) -> P
17:29:57 <ehird> oerjan: hmm, that is the right type
17:29:58 <ehird> sorry, I was wrong
17:29:59 <ais523> (CLC-INTERCAL for ages, and C-INTERCAL for a while, accept ¬ as a synonym for NOT)
17:30:01 <ehird> but ais523 was too
17:30:30 <ais523> hmm... oerjan's type looks righter than ehird's, at least q can be () then
17:30:54 <ehird> oerjan's type Is right
17:30:59 <ehird> and it's what haskell's callcc continuation monad uses
17:31:13 <ehird> add = λ(a,b){ a + b }
17:31:32 <GregorR> ehird: Doesn't work in midori either, but firebug is being unhelpful.
17:31:38 <ehird> ais523: because in ruby you can call functions without parens
17:31:49 <ehird> and lambdas give you Procs
17:31:56 <ehird> a.(b) is short for a.call(b)
17:32:08 <ehird> add = λ a, b { a + b }
17:32:33 <ais523> in Perl that would be $add=sub{shift+shift}; say &$add(1,2)
17:32:44 <ais523> the parens are optional, &$add 1, 2 would work too
17:32:53 <ais523> also, shift+shift is ridiculous
17:33:03 <ais523> because it isn't defined which order the shifts evaluate in, but it doesn't matter
17:33:15 <ais523> shift-shift might not work because you don't know which shift evaluates first
17:33:32 <ehird> s = λ x { λ y { λ z { x.(z).(y.(z)) } } }
17:33:32 <ehird> k = λ x { λ y { x } }
17:33:33 <ais523> $_[0]-$_[1] is the same number of chars and shorter
17:33:45 <ehird> the same number of chars
17:34:01 <ais523> I meant more correct, not shorter
17:35:27 <GregorR> ehird: Aha, fixed. Will push in a sec.
17:36:16 <ehird> c = 2; -> ;c { c = 1 }.call; c # => 2
17:36:35 <GregorR> The problem is I was checking whether firebug was enabled so I could use its console, but my check didn't work on Safari, so thought it was always enabled.
17:37:02 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/cheskers/client/cheskers.html# , join game 18 as white
17:37:12 <ais523> GregorR: did you write cheskers?
17:38:14 <ais523> well, I joined 18 and it seems to work for me
17:38:44 <ais523> I take it that the checkers move as in checkers and the chess pieces as in chess/
17:38:49 <ais523> what's the win condition? checkmate?
17:38:53 <oerjan> <ehird> All based on the C we know and love!
17:38:54 <ehird> you're all mac hating blubberheads. :|
17:39:02 <ais523> GregorR: anyway, play a move
17:39:40 <GregorR> ais523: So am I, it's your turn ;)
17:39:46 <GregorR> ais523: Whoops, spoke too late.
17:40:03 <ais523> are captures compulsory?
17:40:09 <GregorR> ais523: No. Nor is multi-jumping.
17:40:17 <ehird> GAH I'LL DOWNLOAD FIREFOX.
17:40:18 <GregorR> ais523: They're slightly more like pawns than checkers in that sense.
17:40:24 <ehird> EVEN THOUGH FIREFOX IS _AWFUL_.
17:40:24 <GregorR> ehird: I want you to play! But I can't test Safari :P
17:40:35 <GregorR> No wait, yes I can, I have a mac laptop :P
17:40:44 <ehird> but you HATE ME so you won't :P
17:40:50 <ais523> safari is one of the worst and buggiest mainstream browsers on Windows, but apparently it works a lot better on Mac
17:41:29 <ehird> Apple suck at windows software
17:41:34 <ehird> case in point: quicktime
17:41:40 <ehird> quicktime is the worst, most annoying piece of crap on windows
17:41:46 <ehird> on mac, it's the best way to play non-music media
17:41:53 <ais523> was that apple's originally?
17:41:59 <ais523> or did they buy it off someone else?
17:42:00 <ehird> ais523: QuickTime is Apple's yes
17:42:14 <ehird> On OS X it's actually the core media framework
17:42:38 <ais523> strange, it won't let me move my king to f1 or g1
17:43:15 <ais523> oh, I see what happened
17:43:18 <ais523> you put yourself in check last move
17:43:21 <ais523> and I think that confused it
17:43:22 * ehird pukes over firefox a bit
17:43:27 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/cheskers/client/cheskers.html# , but now I'm in the middle of a game with ais523 :P
17:43:29 <ais523> you're still in check, by the way
17:43:33 <ais523> I should have just taken your king
17:43:44 <GregorR> Shouldn't have moved THAT checker :P
17:43:48 <ais523> your king and queen are the wrong way round
17:44:06 <GregorR> ais523: No, they're not, that's a change we made for cheskers.
17:44:12 <GregorR> ais523: It's utterly unfair if they're not swapped.
17:44:12 <ais523> which is what makes that trick possible
17:44:30 <ehird> end your stupid game with ais523
17:45:19 <ais523> you should make moving into check impossible, it screws things up
17:45:33 <ais523> or do it as in Shogi, where if your king is captured you lose even if you weren't checkmated
17:46:13 <ais523> the chess pieces seem a lot more useful than the checkers, but I suppose that isn't surprising
17:46:53 <GregorR> ais523: The checkers serve more to get in the way, but that doesn't make them not part of the strategy.
17:47:17 <ais523> well, obviously, the relatively useless pieces are the same for both players
17:47:27 <ehird> GregorR: what numberrrrr
17:47:47 <GregorR> ehird: We're playing 18, but don't go taking that over :P
17:47:56 <GregorR> ehird: I'll start a new one
17:48:12 <GregorR> ehird: http://codu.org/cheskers/client/cheskers.html# join 19 as white
17:48:26 <GregorR> ehird: Actually the server should more-or-less support that, there are just no rulesets in the DB defined for three players.
17:48:44 <ehird> okay, so what're the rules :x
17:49:07 <ais523> ehird: the same as in chess and in checkers (draughts) combined
17:49:19 <ehird> yikes. i'm crap at both :-D
17:49:27 <GregorR> ais523: I find it somehow unsurprising that you're better than me at chess :P
17:49:30 <GregorR> ehird: That's fine, I suck too :P
17:49:43 <ehird> I'm so crap that I can barely remember how chess works :-D
17:49:48 <ehird> Err, let's move a checker.
17:50:09 <ehird> can the two piece types interact?
17:50:35 <ais523> yes, checkers can take chess pieces by jumping them, chess pieces can take checkers by collision
17:50:38 <ais523> just as in the actual games
17:51:40 <ais523> and I used to be captain of the house chess team, although I haven't played since school
17:51:52 <GregorR> ais523: That was a lot of work to decide that move :P
17:52:00 <ais523> GregorR: I had it planned
17:52:11 <ais523> taking the bishop was relatively obvious, after all
17:52:39 <ehird> I've played chess about thrice in my live
17:53:32 <ehird> http://homepage.mac.com/avidrissman/extimgs/st.png <- Oh heck yes.
17:53:51 <ais523> GregorR: it's not as if I didn't set a trap for her two moves ago
17:54:02 <ais523> but you got a bishop and rook in exchange, that's normally about fair compensation
17:54:35 <GregorR> ais523: In case you haven't noticed, I don't HAVE your rook :P
17:55:08 <ais523> not a bishop and rook, you misplayed that slightly
17:55:24 <ais523> you could have used the king to defend the queen, and got the rook that way
17:56:13 <GregorR> ehird: Sorry our game is going slow, but ais523 is kickin' my arse :P
17:57:15 <GregorR> ehird: Thanks for the queen :P
17:57:25 <GregorR> ehird: Uh, you just moved into check :P
17:57:32 <ais523> is there any way to watch games in progress?
17:57:54 <GregorR> ais523: You can join any game as any player and just don't play. We have an observer player built in, but I forgot to add it to the UI X-D
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17:58:36 <ais523> GregorR: does it detect checkmate/
17:58:42 <ais523> it should at least ban moves into check
17:58:48 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7xe5p/give_it_up_reddit_python_c_print_njoin_joinn_for/c07o0ty <- first reply is golden
17:58:50 <GregorR> ais523: It should, but it doesn't :P
18:00:21 <ais523> also, what happens when you crown a checker?
18:00:44 <GregorR> ais523: It turns into a king.
18:00:48 <ais523> ehird: a BF program that does something ekse
18:00:48 <GregorR> ais523: HAW HAW JUST KIDDING
18:00:57 <GregorR> ais523: It turns into what we call an "ace", which is just like a checker king
18:00:57 <ais523> GregorR: a checkers king, or a chess king?
18:01:18 <ehird> <ais523> ehird: a BF program that does something ekse
18:01:29 <GregorR> ais523: It'd be funny though if it turned into a chess king ;)
18:01:42 <ais523> the BF program doesn't do the same as the Python program
18:02:21 <ais523> I can't tell from my head what it does print, but it prints lots of different letters, not just * and space
18:03:21 <ehird> ais523: ... "first reply is golden"
18:03:27 <ehird> was the keyword in that link
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18:03:46 * GregorR is struggling for good moves :(
18:04:35 <ais523> ehird: it's even funnier in that it's correct, though
18:04:39 <ais523> it would be funny even if it was wrong
18:04:55 <ehird> you seemed to be looking at just the first post,t hough
18:04:58 <ais523> GregorR: you only /have/ one legal move here...
18:05:08 <ais523> ehird: it's more fun when trying to work out if the post is correct
18:05:16 <ehird> yeah I thought it was a joke at first
18:05:48 <GregorR> ais523: That doesn't mean I can't cry myself to sleep looking at the board :P
18:06:09 <ais523> looks like it's going to be a long endgame which I win convincingly, based on that
18:08:37 <ais523> GregorR: check, just to make sure you notice
18:09:31 <GregorR> WITH MY DYING BREATH I KILL YOUR QUEEN
18:10:11 <ais523> do I really have to spend the time to take all your other pieces too/
18:10:15 <ais523> your king is already dead...
18:10:33 <oerjan> it's not dead, it's just resting...
18:10:44 <ais523> captured, to be precise
18:10:57 <ehird> I want anarchist nomic
18:11:10 <ais523> what, nomic without rules?
18:11:15 <ais523> isn't that an oxymoron?
18:12:05 <oerjan> oxymoron: someone so stupid they don't deserve to breathe air
18:14:14 <GregorR> ais523: So anyway, aside from how much I suck at chess, don't you think that cheskers adds an interesting dynamic to the game? (Since some of your pieces which would otherwise take a few moves to release are free, but because they start out free they're quite valuable and so bringing them out too early is unwise)
18:14:57 <ais523> it's somewhere between chess and shogi in terms of playstyle
18:15:13 <ais523> it basically forces open games, as it's impossible to clog the board up with pawns
18:15:19 <ais523> and it's harder to defend things
18:17:50 <GregorR> Not that you needed to defend anything >_<
18:18:07 <ais523> that's because you weren't attacking
18:18:20 <GregorR> That's because I was spending half the game defending :P
18:18:48 <ais523> does black play first?
18:19:09 <ehird> Whoa, Leopard's speech synthesis is creepily realistic.
18:19:51 <GregorR> White is supposed to play first :P
18:20:40 <GregorR> ais523: I don't know what you're talking about, white plays first and that's how it's implemented! *cough*
18:21:15 -!- FireFly has joined.
18:22:03 <ais523> hmm... what esolang projects are people working on at the moment?
18:22:11 <oerjan> GregorR: sure you're name isn't really George L? :D
18:22:18 <ais523> I'm not, really, I'm busy with other things (although continuing to think about Underlambda)
18:22:34 <FireFly> I'm finding Sir. Cut interesting
18:22:35 <GregorR> oerjan: ........................................... joke: FAILED
18:22:59 <GregorR> oerjan: WELL I DIDN'T GET IT
18:23:05 <ais523> also, trying to work out if an infinite-memory version of Advance Wars would be Turing-complete with the default AI
18:23:32 <oerjan> GregorR: i guess you don't read Darths & Droids, or anything else Star Wars...
18:23:32 <ais523> I managed to create a loop
18:23:43 <ais523> with a red infantry and a blue infantry who continuously walked round in circles
18:23:52 <ehird> Creepy OS X text to speech: http://filebin.ca/zfgscj/speech.ogg
18:24:17 <ais523> if you go city plains river river plains plains river river city plains river river plains plains river river
18:24:28 <ehird> CLICK AT YOUR OWN RISK
18:24:28 <ais523> bent round in a loop so the last river connects to the first city
18:24:33 <ais523> and start an infantry on each city
18:24:52 <ais523> then the two infantry will both go round in the same direction, never encountering each other
18:24:57 <ais523> at least with the "defensive" AI
18:25:31 <ais523> the reason being that going forwards, the infantry goes city / plains river / river plains / plains river / river city
18:25:34 <ais523> and repeats from there
18:25:36 * oerjan almost forgets swatting FireFly -----###
18:25:59 <ais523> going backwards it would be city / river / river plains / plains river / river plains / city
18:26:02 <ais523> which is one turn longer
18:26:10 <ais523> and the AI always chooses the shortest route
18:26:13 <ehird> FireFly: you're a firefly
18:26:15 <oerjan> oh, i was just not paying attention
18:26:17 <ais523> so both infantry go round in the same direction
18:26:17 <ehird> he has a fly swatter
18:26:44 <ais523> and they want to keep going round so as to capture each other's cities, which exchange ownership every 5 turns
18:27:10 <ais523> I think this principle can be extended with 3 players to make increment and decrement operations on two counters
18:27:17 <ais523> where the counters are the amount of money each team has
18:27:29 <ais523> the problem is getting that to affect control flow
18:27:47 <ehird> Does nobody find it as creepy as I?
18:28:19 <ais523> well, infantry walking round and round in little squares in a post-apocalyptic wasteland forever is pretty creepy
18:29:36 <ehird> ais523: This: http://filebin.ca/zfgscj/speech.ogg
18:30:03 <ais523> ehird: this isn't my computer, and it doesn't have speakers or ogg codecs
18:30:08 <ais523> what's the chance I'll be able to play it?
18:30:51 <ais523> where does the over 9000 meme come from?
18:30:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:30:58 <ehird> ais523: a youtube video
18:31:07 <ehird> using a few seconds of the show Dragonball Z
18:31:23 <ais523> oh, I've heard of Dragonball Z
18:31:29 <ais523> but IIRC, 9000 is rather low in the context of that show
18:31:35 <ehird> ais523: Here's a text transcript: http://qntm.org/?9000
18:31:48 <ais523> this terminal has internet filters
18:32:14 <ehird> qntm.org is the website of Sam Hughes.
18:32:29 <ais523> never heard of him, I don't think
18:32:36 <ais523> and no idea, I'd have to click on it to find out
18:32:43 <ais523> and visiting a blocked website gets you in trouble
18:32:44 <pikhq> Sam Hughes is a brilliant sci-fi author.
18:32:48 <ais523> some really weird things are blocked here, though
18:32:51 <ais523> such as the X11 licence
18:32:55 <ehird> ais523: How to Destroy the Earth - he wrote that.
18:33:01 <ais523> well, the licence isn't weird, but the fact it's blocked is
18:33:07 <FireFly> Btw, the DS version of advance wars?
18:33:08 <ehird> And the Earth Destruction Advisory Board.
18:33:13 <ehird> And the Fine Structure series. And ...
18:33:18 <ais523> FireFly: there are two DS versions of advance wars
18:33:28 <FireFly> Ah.. Well, theres also a GBA version
18:33:32 <ais523> I was trying on Dark Conflict, which is probably better for esoprogramming because of the temporary ports
18:33:40 <ais523> and there are also two GBA versions, so oyu fail in that respect too
18:36:10 <ehird> ferret.c: In function ‘rs2s’:
18:36:10 <ehird> ferret.c:165: error: ‘struct RString’ has no member named ‘ptr’
18:38:26 <oerjan> well let's hope it's easy to ferret out that bug
18:38:43 * ehird kills oerjan with a fork
18:39:02 <ehird> ais523: ferret = ruby bindings to indexer thingy
18:39:03 * ais523 vaguely mumbles something about cruelty to forks
18:39:14 * oerjan realizes he deserves it, and croaks
18:39:22 <ehird> hmm not binding, native, okay
18:39:29 * ehird revives oerjan because puns are fun
18:55:32 * oerjan realizes ehird is a master strategist
18:55:44 <oerjan> He is capable of many-pronged attacks...
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19:05:48 <oerjan> http://welldonefillet.blogspot.com/2009/01/stabbing-fork-what-is-it-good-for.html
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19:30:52 <ehird> An irritating algorithm to code: Find the rightmost, deepest application in an SKI application.
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19:36:04 <ehird> This, by the way, lets you lazily evaluate SKI and get a non-blowing-up SII(SII):
19:36:24 <GregorR> "Non-blowing-up" being the technical term of course.
19:36:28 <ehird> Since you evaluate the rightmost, deepest expression that can be reduced (`sx can't be reduced, ```sxyz can be)
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19:37:15 <ehird> oerjan: say, is that reduction lazy?
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19:38:04 <GregorR> Heh, here's a new chess variant: Stupidly-friendly chess. You're never allowed to put a king in check :P
19:38:07 <oerjan> um lazy implies leftmost...
19:38:35 <Deewiant> GregorR: winner decided by arbitration?
19:39:09 <ehird> oerjan: it would check the parent expression
19:39:23 <ehird> so in ``kk```sii``sii, it wouldn't loop
19:39:34 <GregorR> Deewiant: Eventually somebody has to give up from being bored of the sixteen hour game they've just been playing :P
19:39:41 <ehird> because while ```sii``sii is the rightmost, deepest expression you can evaluate, its parent is a `kx
19:39:44 <Deewiant> GregorR: a tie will happen eventually
19:39:48 <ehird> so it skips straight to the ``kkx
19:39:58 <GregorR> Deewiant: Well, it's assumed you're trying to avoid stalemate :P
19:40:39 <oerjan> ehird: well then you aren't really doing rightmost
19:40:42 <ehird> Chesssss: Stupidity-friendly chess but whoever makes the move leading to a tie wins.
19:40:53 <Deewiant> Something like that might make sense if the winner is decided by strength of pieces remaining (what's the term) when a tie happens
19:40:56 <ehird> it's rightmost-deepest-if-would-be-evaluated-anyway
19:41:14 <GregorR> There's a precursor to chess in which if you get it into a stalemate you win.
19:41:20 <GregorR> So that's not without precedent.
19:41:54 <ehird> oerjan: in ````skkkk```sii``sii, it'd evaluate the func to find out if it's k first, ofc
19:42:45 <oerjan> ehird: you are ending up with leftmost, i say
19:43:01 <ehird> oerjan: no, because:
19:43:01 <ehird> [19:36:04] <ehird> ```sii``sii
19:43:02 <ehird> [19:36:04] <ehird> ``i``sii`i``sii
19:43:02 <ehird> [19:36:04] <ehird> ``i``sii``sii
19:43:03 <ehird> [19:36:04] <ehird> ```sii``sii
19:43:07 <ehird> (evaluated in my head according to these rules)
19:44:45 <oerjan> if you replace the first ``sii with something else that turns into `kk but only _after_ applying it, but still without using its argument...
19:45:11 <ehird> oerjan: it checks the result of the evaluation but does not replac
19:45:20 <ehird> so it sees that `i``sii = ``sii, but leaves it as is in the expression
19:45:22 <ehird> so it can do rightmost
19:46:21 <oerjan> essentially you evaluate leftmost until you find that something more rightward happens to be evaluated, then you backtrack
19:46:46 <ehird> still lazy, as far as I can tell, and evaluates ```sii``sii without growing
19:47:27 <oerjan> you know call by _need_ is what you really want, i think
19:47:44 <ehird> You can't do that in ski
19:47:48 <ehird> since there are no bindings
19:47:54 <oerjan> i.e. the expansion happens only because evaluating one copy doesn't evaluate the others
19:47:56 <ehird> call by need = call by name, without bindings
19:49:19 <oerjan> you can do graph sharing
19:49:42 <ehird> like, search the tree for all occurances of the same expr
19:49:46 <oerjan> i.e. when doing ```sxyz -> ``xz`yz , the z should be _shared_
19:50:07 <oerjan> in fact that's enough since that's the only ski rule that duplicates things
19:50:08 <ehird> oerjan: but ``xz`yz isn't reduced immediately
19:50:21 <ehird> I'm doing step-until-x-==-eval(x)
19:50:31 <ehird> so it'll just return App (App x z) (App y z)
19:50:39 <ehird> where z = App S K or whatever
19:51:46 <ehird> oerjan: so how do you do it then?
19:52:07 <oerjan> well haskell datatypes don't usually allow sharing detection
19:52:30 <oerjan> you need some id or monadic references for that
19:52:39 <ehird> that's what I'm avoiding :-(
19:53:20 <oerjan> you could also use a tie-the-knot trick, where you bundle the evaluation of z with z
19:54:28 <oerjan> unless you define a numeric datatype where it does
19:54:55 <oerjan> in the standard datatypes, arithmetic is strict in all arguments
19:58:02 <oerjan> ehird: i'm not sure if it would be useful to you, essentially it would implement ski laziness with haskell laziness, but maybe add some symbolic tags or something
20:11:45 * ehird installs gtk2hs to install yi
20:11:48 <ehird> to edit this ski thingymabob
20:32:19 <GregorR> Cheskers now has support for chess (minus proper promotions (always promotes to queen) and en passant)
20:35:33 <oklopol> castling is a rule that's actually used, you can't leave *that* out.
20:36:23 <oerjan> it strictly requires keeping some extra state, though
20:36:36 <GregorR> Whoops, forgot about castling entirely X-D
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21:35:00 <GregorR> lol, no, it actually has no relevance to this channel whatsoever :P
21:35:27 <GregorR> A friend of mine and I wrote a game server to play a mix of chess and checkers (cheskers), and now I'm generalizing it to play most any game on a vaguely chess-like board.
21:35:38 <GregorR> (As well as properly supporting all the basic chess rules :P )
21:37:11 <GregorR> You start with a row of chess pieces and two rows of checker pieces.
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21:38:48 <GregorR> Beyond that it's just standard chess and checkers rules.
21:38:59 <GregorR> But it changes the dynamics of the game a lot.
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21:39:43 <SimonRC> I imagine one ends up with a useful bishop and a crap bishop
21:40:10 <GregorR> We call them the "free" bishop and the "pinned" bishop.
21:40:21 <GregorR> Same is true (to a much lesser degree) of the knights.
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21:45:50 <GregorR> Yeah, well you're an auntie-entity
21:45:56 <oerjan> the other guy, who said hi
21:47:26 <oerjan> auntities and other uncleanness
21:49:50 <GregorR> oerjan: What, you think I'm stabbing with sunshine and rainbows? :P
21:50:08 <oerjan> hm does that mean your auntity now exists?
21:54:44 <GregorR> There's a little bit of aunt titty in all of us.
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23:31:27 <psygnisfive> i showed the Life sierpinski gasket to my philosophy-and-computers prof and his response was "you gotta be frikkin kidding me"
23:36:30 <pikhq> ... Sierpinski gasket in life?
23:37:01 <psygnisfive> i showed it off the other day after ehird's doubly mirrored gasket :|
23:38:27 <ehird> pikhq: just draw a long perfectly straight line
23:38:33 <ehird> voila: sierpinski.
23:38:48 <ehird> it has to be one of the top coincidences of the century.
23:39:00 <ehird> i'm sure there's a deep mathematical reason for it
23:39:08 <GregorR> More accurately, it's not a coincidence at all, as <ehird> i'm sure there's a deep mathematical reason for it
23:39:20 <ehird> GregorR: it wasn't intended, though
23:39:28 <ehird> to the best of my knowledge
23:39:50 <psygnisfive> the long line spawns two neighboring lines, right
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23:40:30 <psygnisfive> this then creates two more neighboring lines, while killing off those original three due to crowding
23:41:00 <ehird> and the debris it generates = sierpinski
23:41:12 <psygnisfive> this keeps happening, separating out the long single lines, doubling each time
23:41:44 <psygnisfive> so that as they build outwards, they naturally form sierpinski's triangle by just .. spreading and doubling.
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23:44:41 <oerjan> hm this explains why it forms initially on the border of the shrinking lines, but not why it doesn't decay more afterwards (although the picture shows some decay)
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23:45:08 <psygnisfive> it doesnt decay afterwards because it just ends up producing oscillators
23:45:44 <oerjan> so somewhat accidental perhaps
23:45:59 <oerjan> or maybe symmetry comes into it
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00:11:45 * Sgeo doesn't get Banks
00:12:27 <oerjan> i think it's a cultural thing
00:12:49 <Sgeo> I meant in Golly
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02:55:28 <GregorR> EVERYBODY DO THE R M R F SLASH DAAAANCE
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10:19:27 <oerjan> and by very you mean enormously.
10:33:09 <oerjan> let's drink and sing and do the hokey pokey
10:34:41 <oklopol> okay not loading is not very funny, i admit it.
10:35:05 <oerjan> positively a 1 on the scale
10:37:58 <oklopol> oh my connection is local only, no wonder i can't access the nets..
10:38:44 <oklopol> you'd think if the mirc dude can write a strong ai to converse with me, he'd also manage to make it check whether i'm online.
10:38:49 <oerjan> it goes up to either 9, or 10.
10:39:00 <oklopol> i mean of course i notice if it keeps talking to me even when i'm offline.
10:39:09 <oerjan> or possibly 6, if you're in norway
10:40:47 <oklopol> btw could someone network-knowledgeable tell me why exactly i can always irc even when my internet is down? probably vista's just lying to me ofc.
10:40:50 <oerjan> also i'm not an AI, i'm a platonic ideal and you are really sitting in a cave, watching shadows.
10:41:11 <oklopol> i always found that comparison kinda stupid
10:41:42 <oerjan> no idea but recently IE has started acting up on me so i see a similar phenomenon
10:42:26 <oerjan> it's weird, after i close all IE windows it won't connect again, until i restart the machine
10:43:57 <oerjan> also it takes a while having the windows open before it happens on closing
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10:44:29 <oerjan> can you connect with anything other than irc/http?
10:44:31 <oklofok> i thought the xkcd was okay.
10:44:39 <oerjan> also, did you hear anything i said?
10:44:52 <oklofok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
10:45:06 <oerjan> i take that as a sign it was stupid, and refuse :/
10:45:29 <oerjan> since the only actual _advice_ was after you rejoined :D
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10:46:49 <oklofok> i disconnected because i flipped the switch on and off
10:46:50 <oerjan> i _suspect_ my virus scanner, since it happened after an update of it that coincidentally made it work properly in other ways
10:47:30 <oklofok> suspecting is a sign of having a hunch
10:47:31 <oerjan> otoh there were some Windows security updates too, when i think about it.
10:48:07 <oklofok> so what was so bad about pep talk?
10:48:24 <oerjan> it was a *groan* kind of joke
10:50:41 <oklofok> much better than any kind of pun could ever be imo, and xkcd has had those
10:50:55 <oklofok> puns are a lesser category of jokes
10:51:01 <oerjan> i _thought_ it had something to do with a full virus scan bringing my laptop nearly to its knees, but yesterday it happened again even though i have turned off the automatic scheduling
10:51:13 <oklofok> of course it's kinda stupid he explains it
10:51:24 * oerjan swats oklofok viciously -----###
10:52:02 <oklofok> he could've more like boosted his talk, now we *really* need to start playing
10:52:40 <oerjan> yeah a bit of that british understatement thing
10:53:11 <oklofok> err british understatement thing?
10:53:28 <oklofok> less doubting, more proving!
10:53:37 <oerjan> the british invented understatements, surely
10:53:53 <oerjan> unless they stole it from the ancient romans
10:54:04 <oerjan> i don't know, as i cannot read jokes in latin
10:54:40 <oerjan> well lessee i recall adding i to subtle cough did not achieve much
10:55:04 <oerjan> don't recall checking it thoroughly
10:55:12 <oklofok> well seems you'd just end up building pipes, then using them to achieve nothing
10:55:16 <oklofok> if my intuition about i is right
10:55:25 <oerjan> i expect the same methodology to work though
10:55:52 <oerjan> there is no s, so no real duplication, so i suspect it's not tc
10:56:22 <oerjan> could make a stronger claim: unlambda without s is probably not tc
10:57:11 <oklofok> i just want my tc cough combinators
10:57:51 <oerjan> `ci = `i(*) = (*) = `cc iirc
10:59:20 <oerjan> ``cci = `(`*i)i = `ii = i
11:00:57 <oklofok> seems i need to find something to eat
11:01:16 <oerjan> hm the continuations mean applying i first need not be trivial
11:01:52 <oerjan> but `i`cc = `i(`i*) = (`i*)
11:02:01 <oerjan> admittedly that's probably = (*)
11:02:18 <oerjan> ok applying i is still trivial
11:04:44 <oklofok> i always do that, i see you do something, but before i start thinking what it is, i get an idea, try it out, and realize i did what you did.
11:05:14 <oerjan> and _still_ you don't believe in the subconscious ;D
11:05:19 <oklofok> i mean i invented your continuation syntax after not understanding how yours worked from taking a glimpse at it.
11:05:33 <oklofok> i believe in *a* subconscious!
11:06:26 <oerjan> so it seems adding i adds only i
11:08:24 <oerjan> `vA = v if A terminates without throwing a cont.
11:08:24 <oklofok> but so for any function f, `f`ci = `i(`f*) = (`f*), and `f`cc = `c(`f*) = `f(*), how are they are the same?
11:09:06 <oerjan> to subtle cough that is
11:10:26 <oerjan> assuming f is not a complex expression
11:11:09 <oklofok> always forget the returning
11:12:22 <oerjan> ``ccv = `(`*v)v = `vv = v
11:12:26 <oklofok> continuations are a bit hard to analyze with syntactic transforms.
11:13:15 <oerjan> the thing is when you apply an equation `cc = (*), you need to replace () by the continuation you put it in
11:14:15 <oerjan> hm so in theory you should not do that until `cc becomes the next term to evaluate
11:14:47 <oklofok> so you mean you need to have strict evaluation also in the rewriting?
11:15:10 <oklofok> with continuations, are there multiple normal forms?
11:15:49 <oklofok> if not, are there infinite loops resulting from single missteps?
11:16:18 <oklofok> is there actually any theory of combinators + continuations? i mean obviously it's goddamn fucking interesting.
11:16:51 <oklofok> well of course it would just be the theory of lambda calculus + continuations
11:16:56 <oklofok> but i haven't seen that theory either
11:17:28 <oerjan> well there is obviously a theory of lambda calculus + continuations, since that is known to have a curry-howard isomorphism with classical boolean logic
11:19:07 <oerjan> continuations allow you to extract the law of excluded middle
11:20:55 <oerjan> or something like that. not not A => A is simpler
11:21:18 <oerjan> basically, not A is the type of a continuation that takes a value of type A
11:21:50 <oerjan> hm this is not clear at all
11:22:36 <oklofok> http://xkcd.com/380/ <<< i don't get this
11:23:04 <oklofok> oerjan: i know very little about CHI.
11:23:29 <oklofok> oerjan: basically, not A is the type of a continuation that takes a value of type A <<< i don't even get this.
11:24:08 <oerjan> that's a basilisk. if you look at a basilisk, you die.
11:24:40 <oerjan> if you see its face, or something
11:24:41 <oklofok> ohhh, i thought ":)" somehow indicated it was a snake :P
11:24:59 <fizzie> The "BSLSK" should've been a clue.
11:25:19 <oklofok> yes, but i read it as "old schoold"
11:25:57 <oerjan> poll: does oklofok need a new monitor or new glasses?
11:26:11 <fizzie> A scary emoticon is the ":)" where the : character is in the bright color -- you know, :), or ^B:^B) -- but I think our +c mode filters that one out.
11:26:12 <oklofok> somehow ")" was the sex, it means a snake. i have no idea how, also ":" was its age, it was a two-year-old snake
11:26:26 <oklofok> but something still bugged me about it...
11:27:27 <oerjan> on the internet, no one knows you are a basilisk. until it is too late.
11:28:52 <oklofok> oerjan: i read "bslsk", i just thought it was a shorthand for "old school", kinda like ":)" is short for two year old snake... :)
11:30:09 <oerjan> i think that pretty much nails it
11:32:58 <oklofok> yeah but X reduced, where X is the reduction that's about behavios.
11:33:41 <oklofok> A being the nothing, E being the behavior, B being umm evaluation?
11:34:08 <oerjan> i have no clue why those were chosen
11:34:42 <MizardX> class InputThread(threading.Thread):
11:34:58 <MizardX> beh.... I need to type /sp to make it stop
11:34:58 <oerjan> ```sccf = ``cf`cf = ``f(`*`cf)`cf
11:35:24 <oklofok> oerjan: so it's kinda duplication?
11:36:14 <oklofok> yes, but i mean call that C, is it tc? :D
11:36:48 <oklofok> you seem i'm trying to come up with supercough, but since i've failed myself, i'm using you to do the actual thinking.
11:37:18 <oerjan> now that is a recipe for disaster
11:37:21 <oklofok> so if i come up with it, it's still my idea, you're just the program i used to do the testing.
11:38:07 <oerjan> what do you mean "call that C"
11:38:17 <oklofok> oerjan: well have that as the only combinator
11:38:48 <oerjan> well applying it to itself for a start...
11:39:26 <oklofok> i mean in general, do continuations add any kind of computational power
11:39:47 <oklofok> is there a non-tc set of combinators such that adding call/cc makes them tc
11:40:06 <oklofok> actually that scc thing doesn't answer that, it's a bit different again
11:40:07 <oerjan> i would guess there is. but that doesn't necessarily say much.
11:40:40 <oerjan> actually i wasn't talking about my guess
11:41:03 <oklofok> then what do you mean, i mean that would be awesome.
11:41:22 <oerjan> i mean you can make convoluted things that just miss a little piece to be tc, that doesn't really say much about the power of the missing piece
11:42:04 <oklofok> it says something about its power
11:42:26 <oklofok> or well at least the lack thereof does
11:43:13 <oerjan> ```scc``scc = ``c``scc``c``scc
11:43:36 <oerjan> ```scc``scc = ``c``scc`c``scc
11:44:59 <oerjan> = ````scc(`*`c``scc)`c``scc
11:46:17 <oerjan> = ```c(`*`c``scc)`c(`*`c``scc)`c``scc
11:47:07 <oerjan> hm we have a subproblem of `c``scc in there
11:48:13 <oerjan> `c``scc = ```scc(*) = ``c(*)`c(*) = ``(*)(`*`c(*))`c(*)
11:48:23 <oerjan> now that was an immense improvement
11:49:06 <oklofok> yes, superficially speaking
11:49:22 <oklofok> i can't say i still actually *understand* these expressions.
11:49:32 <oklofok> i think it looks prettier :)
11:50:50 <oerjan> oh wait of course that simplifies at the next step, it throws a continuation :)
11:51:05 <oerjan> `c``scc = ```scc(*) = ``c(*)`c(*) = ``(*)(`*`c(*))`c(*) = (`*`c(*))
11:51:53 <oerjan> now substitute that in
11:53:03 <oerjan> ```scc``scc = ``c``scc`c``scc = `(``*`c(*)`c``scc)`c``scc i hope
11:53:41 <oklofok> okay that looks kinda nice :)
11:53:59 <oerjan> the next step is to do the same to the second part
11:55:47 <oerjan> that's wrong, i didn't adjust the (*)
11:56:38 <oerjan> ```scc``scc = ``c``scc`c``scc = `(``*`c(`*`c``scc)`c``scc)`c``scc
11:56:58 <oklofok> you do realize you could just run a few steps in an unlambda interp? i guess they wouldn't show the continuations though
11:57:22 <oklofok> i have one that does, apart from the actual combinators, but they could be added in a minute
11:57:43 <oklofok> of course i don't actually have it anymore, lost a lot of shit when my hd died.
11:59:20 <oerjan> one point, maybe it would be worth checking if it actually terminates :D
11:59:53 <oklofok> but would that actually tell no expressions involving it do?
12:00:00 <oklofok> it would at least strongly hint it
12:00:10 <oklofok> the problem is even that doesn't necessarily say it's not tc :P
12:00:25 <oklofok> would be so much easier if i was less dumb.
12:00:36 <oklofok> i could just answer my questions myself
12:01:00 <oklofok> oerjan: no not really. it could do useful computation, then always hit somekinda trivial loop afterwards.
12:01:39 <oerjan> erm _every_ subexpression of the form ```scc``scc will not terminate if ever evaluated
12:02:08 <oerjan> and you cannot do anything in this language that doesn't start with just that
12:02:10 <oklofok> well that does say it's not tc.
12:02:55 <oklofok> but i meant that subexpression could've used the upper continuation in its nonterminating loop, and somehow done computation anyway
12:03:57 <oerjan> oh of course ``cA`cB is a well-known construction in unlambda, someone was playing with it just the other day, it tends to create infinite loops
12:05:29 <oklofok> i see i see, i've been a bit offline.
12:05:35 <oerjan> whoever made that unlambda bot
12:05:50 <oklofok> well he made an unlambda interp
12:06:57 <oerjan> anyway if an expression does not contain an embedded continuation, then it initially has access only to its containing one
12:07:43 <oerjan> which means even if it _does_ throw a continuation, it will end up looking like a normal return from the outside
12:08:12 <oerjan> so if it doesn't terminate, it cannot interact with the outside at all
12:08:39 <oklofok> finally the monkey catches the titanium ball
12:08:51 <oklofok> i should eat something now
12:09:41 * oerjan was briefly wondering if that was a weird metaphor or if you were playing some game on the side
12:10:02 <fizzie> Which one was it? I'm still wondering.
12:10:03 <oklofok> both, i'm playing the game with you
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14:16:53 <ehird> why isn't my quicklog playing
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14:22:32 <ehird> i conclude miau sucks dicks
14:27:35 <ehird> 04:03:57 <oerjan> oh of course ``cA`cB is a well-known construction in unlambda, someone was playing with it just the other day, it tends to create infinite loops
14:27:55 <ehird> ```ci`c.ai prints a forever
14:28:05 <ehird> ``ci`cX = infinite Xs :D
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15:17:37 <ehird> http://dobbscodetalk.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=Porting-D-to-the-Mac-Pt.-3.html&Itemid=29
15:22:13 <ehird> On a Macintosh monitor, the notional resolution is 72 dots-per -inch
15:22:13 <ehird> But on a Windows monitor the resolution is (usually) 96 dpi
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17:05:30 <ski__> loeb : forall u : U. Bew (imp (bew u) u) -> Bew u
17:11:05 <ehird> loeb loeb loeb loeb
17:11:16 <ehird> loeb is the essence of computing loeb.
17:12:48 <ehird> who here's used llvm?
17:18:47 <ski__> loeb is a quite stange theorem
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17:19:20 <ehird> It is loebelicious, clearly.
17:19:45 <ski__> "Assuming you'd believe that if you believe a statement, then that statement is true. Would you then believe the statement was true ?"
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17:20:18 <ski__> (for any specific "statement" you like to consider)
17:20:31 <ehird> Undefined, because that's a recursive definition
17:20:48 <ski__> loeb's theorem is *provable*
17:21:21 <ehird> it seems like you can't unwrap the belief to truth without assuming that, no?
17:22:16 <ski__> (given a suitable interpretation of "believe" .. here "you" can e.g. be the formal system of Peano Arithmetic, and "believe" means that Peano Arithmetic can prove that Peano Arithmetic can prove the statement)
17:23:54 * ski__ is interested in finding computable interpretations of loeb's theorem
17:24:19 <ski__> (i.e. as a programming function)
17:25:20 <ehird> exists, I'm pretty sure
17:25:32 <ehird> http://blog.sigfpe.com/2006/12/tying-knots-generically.html
17:25:37 <ehird> > loeb :: Functor a => a (a x -> x) -> a x
17:25:38 <ehird> > loeb x = fmap (\a -> a (loeb x)) x
17:25:40 <ehird> loeb loeb loeb loeb loeb
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17:28:51 <ski__> ehird : yes, that's something like what i want
17:29:06 <ski__> the "only" trouble with that is that it's inconsistent
17:29:43 <ski__> loeb [(\[x,y] -> y),(\[x,y] -> x)]
17:30:25 <ski__> i want interpretations which will terminate (or be productive, if codata), given terminating (productive) inputs
17:33:14 <ehird> ski__: specialize it on just functions?
17:33:18 <ehird> loeb :: a -> ((a -> x) -> x) -> a -> x
17:33:30 <ehird> loeb :: (a -> ((a -> x) -> x)) -> a -> x
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17:36:30 <ski__> loeb (\() f -> f ()) ()
17:36:35 <ski__> would diverge, too
17:38:06 <oklofok> ski__: "Assuming you'd believe that if you believe a statement, then that statement is true. Would you then believe the statement was true ?" <<< is there something paradoxical i'm missing here?
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17:39:02 <ais523> oklofok: if you believe something, do you necessarily believe you believe it?
17:39:31 <ais523> or can people be mistaken about what they believe?
17:39:33 <ski__> ais523 : yes, that's also a good question (but not what `loeb' above is about)
17:39:45 <ski__> oklofok : depends on whether you've found anything paradoxial
17:40:41 <oklofok> believing is when you've decided to hold something as true.
17:41:10 <oklofok> therefore by definition if you believe, you believe you believe.
17:41:25 <oklofok> of course this might not be a definition suitable for everyone, i just hate philosophy.
17:41:36 <oklofok> hmm, should probably join #philosophy again
17:41:43 <ski__> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B6b%27s_theorem> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxastic_logic>
17:42:16 <oklofok> holy shit that's hot stuff :D
17:42:23 <ski__> Conceited reasoner^[1]^[4]: A reasoner is conceited, if they believe they are never inaccurate. A conceited reasoner will necessarily lapse into an inaccuracy.
17:42:44 <ski__> Peculiar reasoner^[1]^[4]: A reasoner is peculiar if there is some proposition p such that they believe p and also believe they don't believe p. Although a peculiar reasoner may seem like a strange psychological phenomenon, a peculiar reasoner is necessarily inaccurate but not necessarily inconsistent.
17:42:48 <oklofok> wtf finnish dude mentioned on page
17:43:21 <ehird> ski__: try coming up with a good type for it, then using lambdabot's @djinn?
17:43:39 <ski__> (also obviously <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_logic> .. see also stanford's encyclopedia of logic)
17:44:11 <ski__> Unstable reasoner^[1]^[4]: A reasoner is unstable if there is some proposition p they believe that they believe p, but don't really believe p. This is just as strange a psychological phenomenon as peculiarity, however, an unstable reasoner is not necessarily inconsistent.
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17:44:31 <ehird> I'll consider [] a box because it looks like one
17:44:41 <ski__> yes, that's loeb's rendering in Provability logic
17:44:46 <ehird> (a -> ((a -> p) -> p)) -> a -> p
17:44:51 <ehird> yeah that's my specialized loeb
17:45:02 * ski__ has been reading "The Logic of Provability", by George Boolos, recently
17:45:23 <oklofok> they believe p but don't really believe p?
17:45:41 <ski__> i want to interpret `[] a' as code representing an expression of type `a' (that you can pattern-match on)
17:45:59 <ehird> ski__: well, that's a think
17:46:06 <ehird> [] a would be () -> a
17:46:07 <ski__> oklofok : no "they believe that they believe p, but don't really believe p" !
17:46:21 <ehird> ski__: omit really
17:46:25 <ski__> ([] [] p) /\ (not [] p)
17:46:30 <ehird> believe (believe p) & (not (believe p))
17:46:51 <ski__> no, code is not thunks
17:47:03 <oklofok> ski__: oh, "...some proposition p so that they..."
17:47:12 <ski__> `eval' in lisps doesn't operate on thunks
17:47:41 <ehird> that's kind of detail-y
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17:47:58 <ski__> if i interpret `[]' as "code of", then one proof of loebs theorem i've seen really appear to be almost
17:48:08 <ehird> [template haskell that is]
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17:48:20 <ski__> ((lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)) (lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)))
17:48:32 <ski__> (which i hope you recognize ..)
17:48:38 <ehird> that variable name obfuscation is a bit intellectually dishonest :P
17:48:51 <ehird> ((lambda (x) `(,x ,x)) (lambda (x) `(,x ,x)))
17:49:14 <ski__> er, actually i forgot an '
17:49:22 <ski__> ((lambda (x) `(,x ,x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ,x)))
17:50:01 <ski__> (if you want, i can remove the "almost" in the above statement ..)
17:51:03 <ski__> (ehird : better than TH would be MetaML or MetaOCaml)
17:51:45 <ski__> and from what i know, doesn't allow cross-stage persistance or anything similar
17:52:13 <ski__> (also, TH is dynamically typed)
17:52:55 <ehird> dynamically typed can be fixed
17:53:19 <ski__> but possibly not without doing violence to the existing system
17:53:31 <ehird> then use (Box a) to mean "code evaluating to something of type a"
17:53:38 <ski__> (which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing ..)
17:56:18 <ski__> how do i express (lambda (x f) `(lambda (y g) ,(f (lambda (z) `(g x `z))))) in TH ?
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17:56:41 <ehird> ski__: not sure :-D
17:56:44 <ski__> ( usuing lispy syntax for (hopefully) familiarity)
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17:57:16 <ski__> note that e.g. `x' is bound outside the quasi-quote, but used inside it
18:00:32 * ski__ thinks he would better sink into misty magic land atm, though ..
18:01:54 <ehird> ski__: unfortunately, it looks like `eval :: Box a -> a` would be Difficult(TM)
18:02:02 <ehird> since you can get back an ast, but you'd need to use the ghc api to compile & run
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18:03:39 <ski__> (.. that might not bad that bad, considering that if `[] a -> a' is provable, then the system would be inconsistent, because of loeb)
18:04:14 <ehird> 'd need lots of magic anyway
18:04:20 <ehird> to turn whatever ghc gives you into a value
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18:10:40 <ehird> ski__: actually, [] a -> a is provable with functions and functors
18:10:57 <ehird> ofc, undefined being provable makes everything provable...
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18:12:58 <ehird> [18:12:45] <ehird> @djinn a -> ((a -> p) -> p) -> a -> p
18:12:58 <ehird> [18:12:46] <lambdabot> -- f cannot be realized.
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18:14:35 <oerjan> <ehird> i conclude miau sucks dicks
18:14:41 <oerjan> shush with your bestiality
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18:21:03 <oerjan> <oklofok> wtf finnish dude mentioned on page
18:21:25 <oerjan> this is of course a tremendous coincidence, given that there are only 5 finns or so
18:22:31 <Sgeo> Bye for now all
18:22:50 <oerjan> you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave
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18:23:35 <oerjan> he succumbed to peer pressure
18:24:26 <oklofok> oerjan: my point almost to the word.
18:25:14 <oerjan> i'm not sure i believe that you believe that you believe that.
18:27:58 <ehird> whee, using a ghc-style "Lazy value = function that calculates then replaces itself with trivial return" is only 0.00-0.02sec slower than "calculate once with normal func, then assign to variable"
18:30:55 <ehird> http://www.finerrecliner.com/?p=263 what the fuck.
18:36:51 <ehird> i forgot to tell you
18:37:02 <ehird> I wrote an ski interp that almost works, and is lazy, and runs ```sii``sii without growing
18:37:22 <ehird> "garbage collection"
18:37:22 <ehird> reduce :: SKI -> SKI reduce (App (App (App S x) y) z) = App (App x z) (App y z) reduce (App x y) = gc (App (reduce x) y) reduce x = gc x gc :: SKI -> SKI gc (App (App K x) _) = x gc (App I x) = x gc (App x y) = App (gc x) (gc y) gc x = x
18:37:44 <ehird> reduce :: SKI -> SKI; reduce (App (App (App S x) y) z) = App (App x z) (App y z); reduce (App x y) = gc (App (reduce x) y); reduce x = gc x; gc :: SKI -> SKI; gc (App (App K x) _) = x; gc (App I x) = x; gc (App x y) = App (gc x) (gc y); gc x = x;
18:37:47 <ais523> I think you can run ```sii``sii indefinitely lazily by optmizing `ix into x
18:37:57 <ehird> it optimizes ``kxy too
18:38:03 <ehird> in case you use skk instead of i
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18:38:21 <ais523> ehird: I think you're independently from me discovering the Underlambda evaluation order
18:38:23 <ehird> ah, I think I know why it doesn't work
18:38:29 <ais523> which is "strict or lazy, whatever you like", for most operations
18:38:30 <ehird> turn the s thing into
18:38:30 <ehird> reduce (App (App (App S x) y) z) = gc (App (App x z) (App y z))
18:38:31 <oerjan> ais523: isn't that what he does...
18:38:34 <ais523> apart from things like I/O, which are always strict
18:38:54 <ehird> oerjan: it pretty much runs a gc process on every step, eliminating `ix and ``kxy, while leaving ```sxyz to the "real" steps
18:40:19 <oerjan> ehird: you could make it more efficient by only gc'ing "one level", and do it while building App's, including during parsing. i think.
18:40:33 <ehird> oerjan: define one leve
18:40:52 <ehird> with my current gc, `````skkkik reduces to i in one step
18:40:54 <ehird> i don't like that :<
18:41:00 <ehird> it should just make one reduction at a time
18:41:03 <oerjan> i mean that when building App x y, then gc'ing, you can assume x and y are already gc'ed
18:41:12 <ais523> ehird: the same trick works with Underload, actually; if you leave : and S to evaluate in the proper order and just evaluate the others whenever you feel like
18:41:15 <ehird> reduce (App x y) = gc (App (reduce x) y)
18:41:24 <ehird> you could do (gc y) though
18:41:33 <ais523> the thing that : and ```sxyz have in common is that they're both needed to create loops
18:41:50 <oerjan> ehird: yes it is, assuming you do what i said and gc everything as you build it
18:42:14 <oerjan> s/said/meant/, possibly :D
18:42:17 <ehird> oerjan: makes siisii reduce to siisii in one step
18:42:25 <ehird> which breaks my "are we done" checker :D
18:42:58 <ehird> ```sii``sii -> ``i``sii`i``sii -> ```sii`i``sii -> ```siii``sii
18:43:03 <ehird> that is, only one bit of progress at a time
18:44:07 <oerjan> well, i'm just suggesting an alternate approach for the simplification thing
18:44:50 <oklofok> yeah but who wants a tons more efficient algo
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18:49:23 <ehird> ais523: oerjan: relatedly, I've been thinking about hyper-optimization of lazy functional languages
18:49:39 <ehird> (because I can't kick the urge to try and make a high level language finally faster than C, dammit.)
18:49:48 <ehird> ais523: very tangled.
18:50:24 <ehird> i think static typing is needed, for e.g. arithmetic optimization
18:50:41 <ehird> (to make inferrances like "we can represent 2+2 as a fixnum")
18:51:53 <ehird> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-NextStation-Color-N1200-Computer-NEXT-SLAB-PC_W0QQitemZ110351324556QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110351324556&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
18:52:00 <ehird> $24.99 NeXtStation
18:52:13 <ehird> only to the us tho
18:52:18 <ehird> better a nextcube too
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19:03:10 <ehird> no just shipping :P
19:04:18 <oerjan> i meant that in an extended sense
19:06:38 <ais523> hi in an extended sense, the letter M inside AnMaster's nick
19:07:32 <AnMaster> mhm, I really need context to understand that, and atm I'm rather preoccupied in RL
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19:08:04 <AnMaster> ais523, so what was that about?
19:08:15 <ais523> AnMaster: there is no context
19:08:22 <ais523> it's just me being random
19:08:51 <AnMaster> so what do you mean with "in an extended sense"?
19:10:52 <oerjan> it means "in a sense you'll never find out because you won't read the half page just before you entered" ;D
19:12:40 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
19:14:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, how many lines do you define a page as?
19:14:44 * AnMaster makes his irc client 3 window 3 lines high
19:16:46 <oerjan> forgot the upper topic line
19:17:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, half a page would then start at "<ehird> and is also wrong"
19:17:28 <oerjan> also, half a page was an overstatement
19:17:31 <ais523> <oerjan> i meant that in an extended sense
19:17:38 <ais523> was the line I was referring to, which was the line before you said hi
19:17:41 <oerjan> it actually starts at <ehird> omfg.
19:18:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is because it scrolls down when you type and also long lines wrap
19:20:28 <oerjan> in case it is still not obvious, that was not intended as an accurate measurement
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19:24:31 <lament> FUNCTIONS ARE FUNCTIONAL
19:25:08 <ehird> LAMENT IS ON CRACK
19:25:38 <oerjan> REDUNDANCY IS REDUNDANT
19:26:29 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:26:59 <lament> COMPUTARS ARE COMPUTABLE
19:28:41 <lament> GREEN -> APPLE -> TREE -> BINARY -> DIGIT -> PINKY -> PINK
19:29:36 <lament> Some apples are orange. But no oranges are apple.
19:29:44 <ehird> [19:28:41] <lament> GREEN -> APPLE -> TREE -> BINARY -> DIGIT -> PINKY -> PINK
19:29:46 <ehird> you could automate that
19:30:00 <ehird> find word, grep dictionary for word, explore all possibilities with other words in same entries
19:30:06 <ehird> until you find the word you want to connect to
19:30:26 <lament> but would you like that huh
19:31:48 * lament replaces ehird with a small Python script
19:33:12 <lament> a small dadaist Python script
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19:45:47 <ehird> setopt pushd_silent
19:49:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
19:51:14 <ehird> my_cd() { dirs=($(dirs)); if [[ ! -z $1 && $1 != $dirs[1] ]]; then pushd $*; fi }
19:51:14 <ehird> setopt pushd_silent
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19:57:01 <ehird> sbcl is so hilarious
19:58:17 <ehird> you can't compile it without a lisp
19:59:16 <oerjan> you cannot compile ghc without a haskell, either...
19:59:27 <Deewiant> you can't compile it without a GCC
19:59:35 <Deewiant> ... wait, that's not hilarious.
19:59:39 <ehird> yes, but it's funnier with sbcl
19:59:49 <ehird> * Despite all appearances, I am _not_ high.
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20:03:19 * ehird compiles sbcl with sbcl XD XD XD.
20:03:25 <ehird> whee look at it go isn't it cute
20:08:13 <oerjan> probably with some added caffeine
20:08:49 <oerjan> i'll hold my opinion on the ginseng
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20:56:17 <Sgeo> Hi psygnisfive
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21:11:50 <MizardX> http://mirrors.dotsrc.org/congress/25C3/video_h264_720x576/ <- some interesting talks, and some information about each -> http://events.ccc.de/congress/2008/Fahrplan/events.en.html
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23:10:05 <GregorR> I just set xchat to use my godawful handwriting as its font.
23:10:11 <GregorR> It's not even slightly readable.
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23:14:58 <GregorR> I have no idea what you just said.
23:15:10 <GregorR> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/handwriting_xchat.png
23:15:12 <ehird> H, zero, oh, you, pee, ess, one, heigh, cee.
23:15:31 <GregorR> "Eighch" is spelled "eighch"
23:15:32 <ehird> GregorR: You have some baseline issues there.
23:15:43 <ehird> No, it's spelled "heich".
23:16:46 <oerjan> Bah not worse than that
23:16:55 <GregorR> ehird: Actually, it seems to be "aitch" :P
23:17:39 <ehird> also, that is so readable GregorR
23:17:52 <GregorR> ehird: EXAGGERATION FOR THE SAKE OF EMPHASIS
23:18:07 <ehird> EMPHASIS FOR THE SAKE OF EMPHASIS.
23:18:24 <oerjan> REPETITION FOR THE SAKE OF REPETITION
23:18:51 <oerjan> also, that was supposed to indicate "NO CURSING"
23:18:57 <GregorR> Pronunciation /heɪtʃ/ and hence a spelling of haitch is usually considered to be h-adding and hence nonstandard
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23:19:32 <ehird> I don't care, it's wrong.
23:20:42 <ehird> ………………………………………………………
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23:36:41 <fizzie> Forgotteded completely about the botty-bot.
23:37:06 <ehird> fizzie: forgotteded
23:37:35 <oerjan> fungot: please give fizzie some grammar lessons okthx
23:37:35 <fungot> oerjan: you're from japan? :p) with the frame fnord?)
23:38:51 <oklofok> i've been wondering about fizzie's grammar, did i give him that?
23:38:57 <oerjan> stor hvithai, to be exact
23:39:05 <ehird> it's awesome, fizzie's language.
23:39:16 <ehird> "them" to refer to a single object is my favourite part
23:41:12 <oerjan> i do not believe that's a verb, either it's misspelled or you accidentally something
23:41:47 <oklofok> well you may have accidentally the context
23:42:22 <oerjan> but i completely your request to correct your errors from the other day
23:42:54 <oklofok> sorry, i should have that.
23:43:52 <oerjan> and i haven't any opportunities before
23:44:23 <oklofok> i it now, i for so stupid.
23:45:15 <ehird> proto: language where everything is a verb
23:45:18 <ehird> kind of like haskell
23:45:26 <ehird> natural language that is
23:45:32 <ehird> want a value? make an unary verb.
23:45:44 <ehird> ermmmm english isn't all verbs :D
23:45:55 <ehird> but, like, if you have a concept like "1"
23:45:58 <oklofok> maybe not from your point of view
23:46:17 <ehird> dog walks -> walks dog
23:46:31 <oklofok> i doubt anyone here does ;)
23:47:32 <oklofok> in lojban, every root word is a verb... but i guess you mean you could apply every subsentence as if it were a verb or something?
23:48:07 <oklofok> lalna kinda does that... it's kinda oklotalk but a natural language; also similar to oklotalk in that it's unfinished.
23:48:20 <oklofok> oerjan: how can you not have found grammar to correct?
23:48:31 <oklofok> i intentionally talk very, very confuzzlatorily
23:48:50 <fizzie> oklofok: You may have had some sort of influence on it, yes.
23:48:50 <oklofok> i guess i haven't done that then
23:49:17 <oklofok> fizzie: did you know your nick has a palindrome in it?
23:50:04 <oerjan> oklofok: well you've certainly started now
23:50:25 <fizzie> Although I think my in-query-talk with ineiros has also been some sort of a cause for my unstandardish speech patternsies.
23:50:41 <fizzie> oklofok: The "izzi" part?
23:51:02 <ehird> [23:50:25] <fizzie> Although I think my in-query-talk with ineiros has also been some sort of a cause for my unstandardish speech patternsies.
23:51:05 <ehird> does ineiros talk oddly?
23:51:25 <ehird> [23:47:32] <oklofok> in lojban, every root word is a verb... but i guess you mean you could apply every subsentence as if it were a verb or something?
23:51:32 <ehird> basically, eliminate adjectives, adverbs, nouns, ...
23:51:38 <ehird> just have absolutely everything be a verb.
23:51:44 <ehird> including compositions of verbs, yes
23:52:22 <MizardX> Would it be strange to use the term 'access violation' in other contexts than segfaults?
23:52:55 <fizzie> ehird: We do our query in less-than-regular Engrish, even though we both are these .fi types. Although now that I review some logs it seems I'm the odder one out. Curious.
23:53:28 <ehird> I imagine their engirsh is rather less comprehensible, though.
23:55:02 <oklofok> 01:49… oerjan: oklofok: well you've certainly started now <<< ?
23:55:16 <ehird> oklofok: give fizzie some vjnglish
23:55:36 <fizzie> The vjn.fi en-fin translatomator made an awesome job of my randomly picked line; too bad you can't optimally enjoy it if you don't speak Finnish: "me aiheuttaa meidän kysyä -ssa less-than-regular Engrish, yhtäläinen vaikkapa me kummatkin ovat nämä .fi tekee malliesimerkki. vaikkakin välittömästi että meikä arvostella joku tekee runko sitä näyttäät olen moinen odder yksi esiin. omituinen."
23:55:39 <oerjan> oklofok: vocabulatoriatingly at least
23:55:53 <ehird> oklofok: come on vjnglish is awesome.
23:56:00 <ehird> or should I say, an coolness.
23:56:16 <oklofok> sure an coolness to be saying
23:56:18 <FireFly> I'm starting to like WireWorld...
23:56:35 <oerjan> an arvostellar performance
23:57:01 * oerjan swats FireFly first -----###
23:57:07 <ehird> THAT ISN'T POSSIBLE
23:57:10 <ehird> BED IS NOT GOING TO YOU
23:57:48 <fizzie> That last one just looks lik "/me exclusive-or bed".
23:57:56 <fizzie> Which reminds me, I need sleep too; night.
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23:59:10 <oklofok> also both have palindromes in their nicks, you have a lot in common.
00:03:48 <oerjan> zeers with palindromes
00:04:25 <oklofok> i'm talking about {fizzie, FireFly}
00:04:48 <oerjan> but a bit short on palindromes
00:05:02 <oerjan> and z's for that matter
00:05:03 <ehird> z = sleep I assume
00:05:40 <oklofok> oerjan: nick palindromes are a temporary meme, please keep up.
00:06:08 <oerjan> yes, and you agree length 1 is short, right?
00:06:45 <oklofok> but sometimes i'm too stupid to realize other's aren't stupid, and explain myself.
00:09:34 <oklofok> also the "oerjan: and z's for that matter" did kinda hint you didn't understand me.
00:10:40 <oerjan> well i didn't understand that part
00:14:01 <lament> how many notes does it take to have a melody?
00:14:51 <ehird> I've seen 2-note melodies.
00:15:33 <lament> oerjan, ehird: Fight to the death.
00:16:16 <oerjan> ehird always wins those fights
00:16:34 <oklofok> the empty melody has no notes
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00:16:57 <oklofok> it's used as the base case for many inductive music proofs.
00:17:52 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3
00:18:46 <oklofok> the point of that was not to play the empty melody, he had some ridiculous idea about using the audience as a modern music instrument
00:18:54 <oklofok> afaik, guess i could just read it
00:20:53 <oklofok> stupid non-mathematical stupidity
00:21:16 <lament> i postulate that 4'33" only qualifies as music if you're fucked up in the head.
00:33:36 <lament> it's better than most rap
00:34:13 <ehird> it's better than most music, as there's infinite music.
00:35:00 <ehird> lament: one note played once. one note played twice.
00:35:11 <ehird> there you go. a tiny segment of the infinite music that exists.
00:35:13 <lament> that's not music, that's a bunch of notes.
00:35:21 <ehird> s/one note/one melody/.
00:35:58 <lament> 1) is the same melody played 2398475987897 times really "music"?
00:36:14 <lament> 2) is this music really different from the same melody repeated 2398475987898 times?
00:36:31 <ehird> lament: if we accept 4'33" as music (implicit in the 'better than most music' I said), then it's still music if repeated for any amount
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00:46:31 <lament> ehird: you are so brainwashed.
00:46:34 <lament> ehird: you're part of the haskell cult.
00:48:15 <lament> ehird: also your argument strategy is peculiar to say the least
00:48:38 <lament> instead of responding, you just copy what i said to a bunch of unrelated people?
00:49:08 <lament> not only it's impolite, but it only proves my point
00:49:21 <lament> can you think for yourself and not bring the haskell cult into this?
00:50:22 <lament> xahlee, to be sure, raises some valid points in that essay
00:50:29 <lament> although he mostly talks about scheme and only mentions haskell in passing
00:50:59 <ehird> 1] IRC is public, I copied it because it was amusing 2] i see 3] I wasn't intending to discuss it 4] wrong 5] k
00:51:35 <lament> i have no idea what those numbers correspond to.
00:51:57 <ehird> from [00:48:38] <lament> instead of responding, you just copy what i said to a bunch of unrelated people?
00:53:49 <lament> keep in mind that, assuming you're brainwashed, it's very hard for you to detect that - that's the nature of brainwashing
00:54:31 <ehird> you're an excellent troll, lament. fyi I don't like haskell all that much.
00:54:48 <lament> i had years of practice.
00:58:09 <lament> also i kinda like xah lee's style
00:58:16 <lament> (the calling everyone a fuckhead part)
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08:50:07 <fizzie> ok-lopol: Hey, you have the nickname-palindromitis also. Why is it that you just point it out in others?
08:50:39 <oklopol> fizzie: i have pointed it out in myselves too
08:51:10 <fizzie> Oh. I must have missed it.
08:55:50 <oklopol> it was my great palindrome bit. but don't worry, i'm going to keep doing it until everyone thinks "palindrome" means "letter".
08:56:11 <oklopol> and burrows-wheeler is one confusing little pecker.
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10:41:34 <Mony> hey, i'm back :D
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11:12:11 <ais523> oklopol: I already knew
11:13:13 <oklopol> so ais523 i didn't hear your summer plans
11:13:22 <ais523> I didn't realise I had any
11:13:39 <oklopol> does your university stuff end during summer
11:13:47 <oerjan> plans? who needs plans?
11:13:53 <ais523> but I find it hard to plan so far ahead
11:14:35 <oklopol> yes, i couldn't tell ppl my plans, but i can easily ask other people's plans :)
11:14:46 <ais523> 365 weeks a month, 80 days a week
11:14:47 <oklopol> oerjan: yes i predicted when he dies.
11:15:32 <ais523> the answer is I'm almost always working on something, but during the holidays it normally isn't university-related
11:15:59 <oerjan> oklopol: if he works like that no way he'll live until 80
11:16:47 <oklopol> oerjan: better to overestimate.
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14:19:06 <ais523> argh, Simulink is calculating the absolute value of a number as being negative
14:19:11 <ais523> there is no way that works, at all
14:19:30 <ais523> I think it must be using some sort of fuzzy maths
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15:07:11 <ehird> what was the number
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15:19:53 <oklopol> but why would a number say such a thing?
15:20:22 <ehird> http://waferbaby.com/setup/2009/02/13/_why <- why the lucky stiff is on LSD again.
15:23:35 <ehird> i loved the ljofol reference
15:27:41 <ehird> i loved all of it.
15:28:18 <ehird> me too. let's get married.
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15:53:35 <oklopol> what's the square root of seven in unary?
15:55:27 <oklopol> and do you brits like cold tea? i think it tastes rather interesting.
15:55:36 <ehird> we like tea in general
15:56:32 <ehird> we like it probably
15:57:04 <oklopol> well how about you know when it's solid
16:00:10 <ehird> by which I mean no
16:01:31 <oklopol> hmm. i'm not sure i'm going to accomplish anything saying random things on random ...medias.
16:01:45 <oklopol> should probably stop using double plurals and start reading or something.
16:02:10 <oklopol> and oh my god RuralHack is crazy, #philosophy is awesome
16:03:11 <ehird> oklopol: ic, some mystic crazy fuck?
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16:04:13 <ehird> [16:03:51] <vostibackle> the bot doesn't have the appropriate functional relationships for consciousness
16:04:13 <oklopol> NaN is actually talking about another crazy fuck, who you probably know, called DanFredriksen
16:04:19 <ehird> oklopol: I think they're _all_ crazy fucks
16:05:11 <ehird> "to lie to others you have to lie to yourself?"
16:05:45 <oklopol> everyone pretty much tunes him out.
16:06:23 <ehird> oklopol: they're all batshit.
16:06:42 <ehird> well, the whole concept of philosophy is pretty much distinguishing the identical
16:06:46 <ehird> so ofc they're batshit
16:07:17 <ehird> oklopol: NaN is in ##christian
16:07:21 <ehird> of course the bot has to differ
16:07:28 <ehird> anything else would be admitting the nonexistance of the soul
16:07:44 <oklopol> admits it's an irrational belief though.
16:08:23 <ehird> man, ruralhack is retarded
16:09:10 <ehird> oklopol: whuz the fancy name for the philosophy "things are just how they physically are goddammit stop being stupid"
16:09:11 <oklopol> yes! he's fun to watch when you're really.
16:09:20 <ehird> not just when you're tired, when you're really, too
16:09:48 <ehird> discount me with your ManWordzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
16:10:09 <ehird> oklopol: does he just type, forever?
16:10:53 <ehird> oklopol: how do you make him stop
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16:11:12 <oklopol> well i'm starting to think he may be a bot, at least a sentence generator, there must be an operator there too though.
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16:11:28 <ehird> we're watching a mad person in ##philosophy. called ruralhack.
16:11:28 <oklopol> he leaves when he wants to.
16:11:45 <ais523_> wow, that was a surprising moment to get a kernel panic
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16:12:17 <ais523> I have no idea why that happened...
16:12:31 <oklopol> kernel panic. what's kernel panic?
16:12:46 <ais523> oklopol: the OS getting so insane all of a sudden it doesn't even know what's gone wrong
16:12:51 <ais523> the whole computer freezes up
16:13:03 <ais523> and on my laptop, it flashes capslock and scrolllock to show that something's gone wrong
16:13:05 <ehird> [16:12:23] <RuralHack> It makes me cry you hate yourself so much that you act as if you are not life
16:14:25 <oklopol> ais523: i see. what oses do that?
16:14:38 <ais523> all the major ones do, or can do
16:14:50 <ais523> and it didn't even leave any info in the logs to show what had gone wrong
16:15:06 <ehird> kernel panics are bugs.
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16:16:37 <oklopol> 18:15… RuralHack: Thank you for letting me rant <<< he stopped.
16:20:09 <ehird> [16:20:03] <RuralHack> go ahead ehird... sorry for interrupting
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16:32:41 <ehird> omg mathematica is crap
16:32:48 <ehird> it is using all my memory just to load a wav
16:33:30 <ehird> ais523: gawd why does it suck so much
16:33:34 <ais523> ehird: I've told you about its inefficiency several times
16:33:46 <ehird> but it's just loading a freaking wav
16:34:50 <ais523> Mathematica manages to be a computational order slower than other things for no good reason at all, somehow
16:35:51 <ehird> it has to load this wav EVENTUALLY...
16:38:13 <ais523> ehird: if I were to guess, it's doing the equivalent of not using a StringBuilder
16:38:40 <ehird> oklopol: gawd, now there's a guy who doesn't see why I'd get up in the morning if I think life has no purpose
16:41:06 <oklopol> ehird: cdials: no, I do it by my own free will because I want to. conciousness has no justification apart from itself, so the continuation of itself is the only logical course. <<< listen to all these wackjobs with their big philosphical words!
16:41:31 <ehird> oklopol: i was attempting to communicate with the lower life form of "philosophical fuck".
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16:41:40 <ehird> [16:41:02] <NaN> I believe the chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying him forever.
16:41:45 <ehird> thanks for that, we couldn't have guessed.
16:41:51 <ehird> why would a christian think that.
16:44:24 <ehird> my brain is rotting.
16:47:24 <fizzie> That makes God sound like some sort of a drink.
16:47:33 <ehird> "Enjoy god every morning!"
16:48:16 <ehird> oklopol: do you ever feel like you're just repeating yourself all the time when talking to them
16:48:47 <ehird> [16:48:42] <Irishmanluke> drdrdrd
16:48:49 <ehird> best insight in hours
16:52:47 <ehird> oklopol: i tried to fit the word conciousness as many times as I could in that sentence
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17:02:48 <ehird> [17:02:32] <ehird> i'm pretty sure this argument in history has only been had seventy billion times.
17:02:48 <ehird> [17:02:41] <ehird> clearly having it one more time will get somewhere
17:02:51 <ehird> Time until kick: 3 seconds
17:03:42 <oklopol> i have a two hour argument this morning there
17:04:09 <oklopol> this dude was trying to convince me statistics are crucial for learning a language.
17:07:18 <oklopol> well, that's fine, except i was talking about how in my opinion it would make more sense to create bots that learn simple artificial grammars, and bots that use a simple-to-parse language and try to do something sensible with the semantics, instead of just starting to feed a generic AI statistics about english and trying to get it to speak it.
17:07:26 <oklopol> (i was interrupted, sorry.)
17:08:18 <oklopol> and told him about a hundred times i was not interested in having an argument about how children learn language, and that i agreed with him about the statistics argument anyway.
17:09:23 <oklopol> and the dude just kept on telling me how his child understood pronouns, and that convobots shouldn't be designed intelligently, but they should be made to understand any language, based on what they're given as input.
17:09:36 <ehird> oklopol: here's an artificial grammar for you:
17:09:38 <oklopol> and i told him i agreed with that as well.
17:10:01 <oklopol> when you add the fact i cannot stop arguments, because, you know, i'm retarded, it was one painful discussion.
17:10:28 <oklopol> missed the whole lecture, fortunately i learned after the lecture i had still understood more than others, it seems.
17:10:49 <ehird> oklopol: expr = verb | verb ' ' verb. verb = [adegklnopstuyz]+
17:10:57 <oklopol> "so, did anyone get at least some sense out of this?" *silence, i wave my hand in midair*
17:11:46 <ehird> oklopol: expr = verb | expr ' ' verb | expr '. ' expr | '"' expr '"' | expr expr. verb = [adegklnopstuyz]+
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17:12:35 <ehird> i haveno idea what that says
17:13:13 <ehird> "polget" is a quotation, ofc.
17:13:22 <ehird> [ofc it has first-class functions]
17:13:48 <ehird> quotations are verbs consisting of the composition of everything in the quotes.
17:13:54 <ehird> but they also reference the verbs inside.
17:14:09 <ehird> agelo was a name, so as a singleton it's (\x. x agelo)
17:14:26 <ehird> na is 'says', I guess.
17:14:33 <ehird> so you can compose "agelo na"
17:14:37 <ehird> to mean 'Agelo says...'
17:15:59 <oklopol> i thought you said elephant
17:16:04 <ehird> sentences (a. b) just run a, clear the stack, then run b.
17:16:06 <oklopol> but umm elegant, let's see
17:16:26 <ehird> oklopol: quotations should nest, actually
17:16:33 <ehird> make it alternating " and '
17:16:36 <ehird> determined by whitespace
17:17:15 <ehird> "'"polget" "agelo na"' agelo na" agelo na
17:17:26 <ehird> ((polget) (agelo na) agelo na) agelo na
17:17:33 <oklopol> i want to make my cool convobot.
17:17:53 <ehird> Agelo says, "Agelo says, "'Polget' and 'Agelo says'.""
17:18:30 <ehird> oklopol: put my grammar into it. and make it invent words for how people behave.
17:18:52 <ehird> like, it'd just recognize patterns in what people say, and learn them as words
17:19:02 <ehird> and if people said patterns along others, it'd associate them
17:19:07 <oklopol> i don't think i'd constrain its capability to invent words.
17:19:17 <ehird> that wasn't constraining
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17:33:31 <ehird> oh my god this word generating algorithm is amazing.
17:34:03 <ais523_> is that even pronouncable?
17:34:08 <ais523_> it ends with oko, anyway, so it's forgiven
17:34:24 <ehird> wait. I have u down as a consonant.
17:34:50 <ehird> ok, triple vowels is a bit excsesive.
17:35:44 <ehird> ais523_: "gaotolootaaney"
17:36:21 <ehird> actually, double is ugly no matter what.
17:36:29 <ehird> it should just be cvcvcvcv or vcvcvcvc
17:36:33 <ais523_> double o works, double a doesn't
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17:37:30 <ehird> ais523_: i'd prefer oo to be a separate letter
17:38:19 <ehird> ais523_: "sakogakasepude"
17:39:59 <ehird> this is clearly oklopol's native tounge
17:40:33 <ehird> 'nakutapupu' <- pronounced 'nahcootahpoopoo'.
17:42:10 <ehird> eyoyanaka <- e, o and a are short there
17:42:17 <ehird> (all vowels are short apart from u)
17:47:21 <ehird> the alphabett: danepokupytz
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18:20:15 <ehird> i always used to think there was a C+
18:20:20 <ehird> there's C and C++, so there must be a C+!
18:20:22 <ehird> (Note: i was like 6)
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19:34:53 <ehird> [19:29:12] <kana> hello, what if time runs backwards and we feel it runs forwards ?
19:51:58 <ehird> [19:51:32] <Sailormoon> Excuse me, all this arrogance has given me diahrea, im going to go take a hot steamy shit, brb
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20:06:37 <ehird> oklopol: have you written tga files?
20:07:52 <oklopol> not sure i've even really used them.
20:08:10 <ehird> he ripped off my haskell lib and gave it tga :P
20:08:33 <fizzie> I thought I'd read some tga files, but upon closer inspection it turns out those were tiff files instead.
20:08:37 <oklopol> Asztal: drag your asz in here and tal us about tga
20:15:32 <ais523> oklopol: ehird's decided to do something with tga
20:15:40 <ais523> because he things libpng is too complicated
20:15:49 <ais523> and now he needs your help, it seems
20:15:53 <ehird> I think that using a library is no fun.
20:18:04 <Asztal> my code for it was pretty short (I didn't bother with endianness) : http://paste.pocoo.org/show/104330/
20:18:49 <ehird> Asztal: ic, I didn't use pallettes
20:18:55 <Asztal> hmm, I suppose I do kind of bother with endianness
20:19:17 <ehird> but ... that's pretty much my cod
20:19:23 <ehird> so wtf doesn'tit work o_O
20:19:39 <Asztal> I didn't do palettes either (not sure what that 32 is there for)
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20:20:33 <ehird> Asztal: wait wait, some of those are _words_?
20:21:05 <ais523> ehird: how did you not notice that?
20:21:10 <ais523> from the spec you linked me?
20:21:24 <ehird> AnMaster: writing.
20:21:31 <ehird> Asztal: fputs("\0\0\2\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0", file);
20:21:31 <ehird> _write_little_endian(file, img->w);
20:21:32 <ehird> _write_little_endian(file, img->h);
20:21:32 <ehird> fputs("\24\0", file);
20:21:34 <AnMaster> ehird, png is a lot more interesting
20:21:38 <ais523> writing's easier as you don't have to worry about compression
20:21:42 <AnMaster> also why do you need to write tga?
20:21:45 <ehird> and I'm at a loss to why that doesn't work
20:21:52 <ais523> AnMaster: because he doesn't want to write png, yet wants graphics output
20:21:54 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't care what you think is interesting, and because I want to
20:22:07 <ais523> I suggested RAW but he couldn't read it
20:22:11 <AnMaster> what is it that you are outputting?
20:22:53 <ais523> AnMaster: never heard of it
20:23:01 <ais523> although it's possibly a different name for .raw
20:23:08 <ehird> the header is the right length, I checked
20:23:17 <ehird> so my values are screwed up somehow, or the data
20:23:20 <AnMaster> ais523, actually there are two, semi-incompatible variants of .rgb, flightgear used to use the more uncommon one
20:23:34 <ehird> more uncommon = less common
20:23:34 <AnMaster> which was a pain to save in gimp, you had to manually select type every time
20:23:51 <fizzie> Uh, that \24 there is octal, isn't it?
20:23:59 <fizzie> While you probably want 24-as-decimal.
20:24:00 <AnMaster> ehird, more common -> less uncommon?
20:24:41 <ais523> I mean, they're both correct
20:24:45 <ais523> rather than one's better than the other
20:24:50 <ais523> I thought that's what you meant by the ->
20:25:01 <ehird> "more uncommon" --AnMaster
20:25:08 <ehird> "say 'less common'" --me
20:25:13 <AnMaster> ais523, ehird seemed to suggest I should use "less common" rather than "more uncommon"
20:25:23 <AnMaster> so I wondered if that was symetrical
20:25:28 <ehird> because more uncommon is a double negative.
20:25:35 <ais523> ehird: since when was "more" a negative
20:25:36 <AnMaster> should "more common" be replaced with "less uncommon"
20:25:49 <ehird> ais523: err, well, you know what i mean
20:25:55 <ehird> more uncommon sounds awkward.
20:26:04 <ais523> try "rarer", you can collapse it into one word
20:26:04 <ehird> less common is ... less uncommon.
20:26:05 <AnMaster> ehird, then you should use less uncommon too
20:26:17 <oerjan> ehird doesn't do deMorgan's laws
20:26:58 <AnMaster> I'm surprised he don't know about that
20:27:18 <ehird> err, I'm talking about language.
20:27:21 <ehird> and what sounds awkward.
20:27:36 <oerjan> "awkward" sounds awkward.
20:27:43 <ais523> ehird: the problem is that nobody here agrees with you, not even the other native English speakers
20:28:08 <ehird> ais523: you think "more uncommon" is better than "less common
20:28:09 <fizzie> Awkward sounds "to the direction of awk".
20:28:26 <ais523> fizzie: yes, it's the opposite of sedwards
20:29:21 <fizzie> I'd say "more uncommondededer."
20:29:57 <ehird> i asked someone who isn't on crack and they can confirm that you're all on crack.
20:30:14 <oerjan> but is "more uncommon" less uncommon than "less common"?
20:30:19 <fizzie> Being not on crack, how would they know?
20:30:21 <ehird> "It might be LSD or heroin."
20:30:27 <ehird> ok, so there is SOME AMBIGUITY here
20:30:32 <ehird> but I don't think no drugs is a possibility
20:30:53 <oerjan> only heroes do heroin. such as the taliban.
20:31:06 <fizzie> Would think the taliban use talidomide.
20:31:17 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I'd say "more uncommondededer." <-- :D
20:31:24 <fizzie> Oh, wait, it's with an 'h' in english.
20:31:28 * oerjan should note he is on neither, he just hasn't eaten yet
20:31:36 <ehird> fizzie: wouldn't you say "more of them uncommons"
20:31:48 <fizzie> I just might, if you keep that up.
20:32:17 <AnMaster> ehird, also I agree with ais523 on this question
20:32:40 <ehird> I could gather that, by the fact that you've both been arguing about it with me and saying the same stupid things.
20:32:52 <AnMaster> ehird, but you seem to think that "more uncommon" is more unenglish?
20:32:54 <ais523> ehird: nobody but you thinks they're stupid
20:33:05 <ehird> ais523: yes, well that's their problem.
20:33:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: you don't count, i saw you make a grammatical error just a while ago
20:33:22 <ais523> besides, "not uncommon" is more of a double negative than "more uncommon", and yet it's quite common
20:33:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, you mean "more unenglish"? that was just a joke.
20:33:44 <oerjan> no, <AnMaster> I'm surprised he don't know about that
20:33:59 <oerjan> that's what they all say
20:34:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, Actually you made an error too. You forgot to use a capital at the start of the sentence.
20:34:39 <oerjan> is this the tragedy of the uncommons, i wonder
20:35:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, Is that like uncyclopedia?
20:35:30 <AnMaster> I mean... wikipedia -> uncyclopedia, wikimedia commons -> uncommons
20:36:28 <oerjan> use the destructive uncommons licence for things you want _no one_ to have
20:36:37 <ehird> creative/destructive?
20:36:41 <ehird> that is not very ... opposite.
20:36:57 <AnMaster> ehird, no that would be less uninlogical
20:37:18 <ais523> so... in ehirdland, "creative" is not the opposite of "destructive", and more is a negative
20:37:38 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe he will say that uninlogical doesn't exist next?
20:37:46 <ehird> the opposite of creative would be uncreative. SHOCK HORROR.
20:38:04 <ais523> ehird: that's a negative, not an opposite
20:38:08 <ais523> what's the opposite of "less than"?
20:38:18 <ais523> somehow I think you're going to say "greater than or equal to", based on that reasoning
20:38:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: also, i don't do capital punishment sentences
20:38:50 <ais523> AnMaster: it was a pun
20:39:00 <ais523> "capital punishment" = "killing people to punish them for a crime"
20:39:07 <ais523> if you don't know that definition, the pun makes no sense
20:39:08 <fizzie> Those are opposites of different senses of creative; here's irrefutable proof from wordnet:
20:39:11 <fizzie> Antonyms of adj creative
20:39:19 <fizzie> creative (vs. uncreative), originative
20:39:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I *know* that. And I don' get it
20:39:26 <fizzie> INDIRECT (VIA constructive) -> destructive
20:39:39 <ehird> its not an opposite
20:39:40 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a reference to the capital letter complaint earlier that you made against oerjan
20:39:44 <ehird> it's the opposite of a related word.
20:39:46 <fizzie> The two senses being: 1. (13) creative, originative -- (having the ability or power to create; "a creative imagination"); 2. (3) creative -- (promoting construction or creation; "creative work").
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20:39:54 <fizzie> It's the opposite of creative in the second sense.
20:40:01 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I thought it was something far fetched based on *pun*ishment
20:40:26 <ais523> AnMaster: you were punning the wrong word?
20:40:46 * AnMaster waits for a joke about type punning next...
20:40:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: well it was that too, obviously
20:41:04 <fizzie> (Even the Principia Discordia uses the creative/destructive pair of opposites.)
20:41:08 <ais523> AnMaster: but my last comment wasn't even a pun, it was just designed to look like one
20:42:00 <oerjan> since i'm only halvway through my meal, don't expect my puns to make complete logical sense
20:42:42 <oerjan> hm what is type punning
20:43:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_punning
20:43:28 <AnMaster> it is stuff like: *((float*)&myint)
20:43:43 <AnMaster> there are less error prone ways to do it
20:44:04 <AnMaster> like unions, in practise every compiler supports "not accessing with same member" because everyone is doing that
20:44:29 <oklopol> your mom is pretty error prone
20:44:52 <oerjan> what the heck does that have to do with the word "pun"
20:45:42 <oerjan> oklopol: what the heck does that have to do with the word "pun"
20:45:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a reference to something ehird said ages ago
20:45:59 <AnMaster> ais523, that sounds like more unbad grammar to me.
20:46:05 <AnMaster> that is more like ehird defines it
20:46:25 <ais523> doubleplusungood grammar?
20:46:45 <ais523> anyway, I'm going home
20:46:46 <AnMaster> I haven't read the book but...
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20:47:20 <oklopol> oerjan: well you know, using another meaning of a variable in a sentence.
20:48:57 <AnMaster> on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stride_of_an_array
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20:59:53 <oerjan> <ehird> [19:29:12] <kana> hello, what if time runs backwards and we feel it runs forwards ?
21:00:01 * oerjan has considered that before
21:04:05 <Asztal> I didn't see that one going!
21:07:40 <GregorR> One can argue that in a global sense time doesn't "run" one way or another, but that we perceive time as running one way due to causality. So, if time was running the other way because of causality, we would perceive it that way because of causality; whereas if it "ran" opposite of causality by some definition, that's irrelevant because causality is how we describe the direction of time.
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21:08:20 <GregorR> That is to say, there is no reasonable definition of time for which that can be true.
21:12:06 <oerjan> i think it assumes there is some "real" time which our consciousness moves along, and asks whether this could correspond with backwards travel in the sense of physical causality
21:13:33 <oerjan> i.e. it assumes a soul/matter dichotomy or similar
21:13:36 * oklopol suggests reading the bible
21:13:50 * oklopol joined ##christian and #jesus today
21:14:13 * oklopol is trying new things... ircwise
21:14:14 <oerjan> another possibility to make sense of it: imagine if our universe is a simulation inside another, which is running backwards relative to the outer one
21:14:50 * AnMaster invites oklopol to ##flyingspaghettimonster
21:15:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, also wth "##christian" but "#jesus"
21:15:14 <AnMaster> the latter one should be ##jesus
21:15:21 <AnMaster> according to freenode channel naming guidelines
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21:15:35 <oklopol> yes, and this should be ##esoteric
21:15:58 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
21:16:10 <AnMaster> then we could have cloaks like * [oklopol] (n=nnscript@esoteric/oklopol): Ville Salo
21:16:43 <oerjan> YOU REVEALED HIS NAME! YOU ASSHOLE!
21:16:48 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )").
21:17:11 -!- oklopol has joined.
21:17:44 <AnMaster> * [nick] (ident@host): GECOS/Real name
21:17:44 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, i meant real name.
21:18:09 <oerjan> it's been revealed before, right?
21:18:15 <AnMaster> * [AnMaster] (n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster): AnMaster <-- much better :D
21:18:18 <oerjan> or maybe not on channel
21:18:34 <AnMaster> I think you are correct Ørjan Johansen
21:18:43 <oklopol> i don't care about people mentioning it.
21:18:44 <oerjan> i am not trying to hide my real name
21:18:46 <AnMaster> * [oerjan] (n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no): Ørjan Johansen
21:18:46 <oklopol> i care about them seeing it
21:19:12 <oerjan> would i choose a nick based on it if so...
21:19:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, nor am I, I just care that any causal observers won't find out with a random whois, my name is easy enough to find anyway...
21:19:57 <lament> THIS LINE IS FOR EASIER GOOGLING. OKLOPOL'S REAL NAME REVEALED IN CLOG! Tags: oklopol, real, name, clog, esoteric
21:20:18 <oklopol> lament: shouldn't you have the name in that line too?
21:20:34 <lament> The name is in today's log, if anyone's interested.
21:20:42 <lament> Just scroll up a couple pages.
21:21:06 <oerjan> lament: i don't think clog is on google properly, i've had trouble searching, only a few pages show up
21:21:14 <oklopol> but i could just disconnect the internet if i wanted people not to see it.
21:21:19 <oklopol> it's not like i'm not in control.
21:21:31 <lament> oklopol: your secret is safe
21:21:44 <AnMaster> your secret is safe with the world
21:22:07 <oklopol> my name is not a secret, i just don't like you using it.
21:22:15 <lament> Don't mention oklopol's name in vain.
21:23:11 <oklopol> and they probably wanted a girl.
21:25:45 <oklopol> not that i know swedish, but still.
21:25:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, well "hitta" is "find"
21:26:06 <oerjan> it's not like you had to learn it in school or something
21:26:08 <oklopol> i thought it sounded a bit curious.
21:26:33 <AnMaster> well "hitta på <något>" == "make <something> up"
21:26:44 <oklopol> well i was pretty much a top student in all languages.
21:26:46 <oerjan> norwegian is "finne på", same structure and meaning of parts
21:27:02 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away.
21:27:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah I figure you Norwegians can understand Swedish better than we Swedes can understand Norwegian
21:27:33 <oklopol> AnMaster: please don't translate things twice to me after i fail.
21:27:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean like "hitta på" <=> "make up"
21:27:58 <oklopol> i'm a sore loser especially when there's no competition.
21:28:10 <oerjan> yep, all swedish culture comes to norway, little goes the other way
21:28:31 <AnMaster> strange... why would it be like that, oerjan?
21:29:00 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird.
21:29:39 <oerjan> not sure, maybe norway is smaller means we need to take from where we can find it
21:30:08 <ehird> <AnMaster> yes a mirc looser
21:30:12 <ehird> I get the feeling you've never used mirc.
21:30:12 <AnMaster> you lucky bastards, got lot of money from it
21:30:26 <ehird> mirc's a fine client, it's shit like hydraIRC that suck
21:30:37 <AnMaster> ehird, mircscript is worse than apple script..
21:30:46 <ehird> i'm talking about the actual client
21:31:13 <AnMaster> anyway I have no interest to discuss subjective stuff with you
21:31:20 <AnMaster> you just never change your mind
21:31:35 <AnMaster> (I don't often, but I sometimes do)
21:31:38 <ehird> yeah, how dare I not be convinced by amazing arguments like <AnMaster> yes a mirc looser
21:32:31 <oklopol> i'm at least one mirc looser than you.
21:32:50 <ehird> oklopol: maybe by amirc he meant american
21:32:58 <ehird> an american that is looser?
21:33:02 <oerjan> oklopol: yes, let's try and bury the quarrel in puns :D
21:33:40 <oklopol> yeah we can be like the messengers of luv
21:34:07 <oerjan> we have nothing to loose
21:34:43 <oerjan> hm we won that one fast
21:34:58 <ehird> did I mention AnMaster is an idiot?
21:35:04 <ehird> oerjan: now you can go some mor
21:35:55 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating...").
21:37:13 <oerjan> i think i'll have to loose that challenge
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21:38:02 <oerjan> eek, playing loose and fast with o's seems to have caused them to procreate
21:38:19 <oklopol> probably that's what happens
21:39:20 <oerjan> we should all be more.
21:45:27 <ehird> Deewiant: how about the fact that it WON'T PRINT ANY CHARACTER
21:45:31 <Deewiant> and also, fputs writes zero-terminated strings.
21:45:40 <Deewiant> ehird: stuff that doesn't compile generally doesn't do much
21:45:50 <ehird> shush, there was string after it
21:45:53 <Deewiant> zero-terminated strings are idiotic.
21:46:01 <ehird> idiotic like a hamburger.
21:46:15 <ehird> should I feel bad about trolling ##christian?
21:46:25 <Deewiant> yeah, like a hamburger. I guess. (?)
21:46:28 <oerjan> or was that a jelly donut
21:46:30 <ehird> Deewiant: exactly.
21:46:59 <ehird> OH YEAH MY TGA KIND OF WORKS.
21:47:56 * oerjan drops Poe's Collected Laws on ehird |====|
21:49:39 <oerjan> Transient Global Amnesia always works as far as anyone can remember
21:51:09 <ehird> hmm. how curious this is.
21:52:09 * oerjan needs to start typing slower than he thinks
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21:52:39 <AnMaster> yet I have like 5 different ones
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21:53:00 <lament> what's a good way to notate homophonic music in ascii?
21:53:03 <AnMaster> now all I want is like a um, openid manager... you know like a old style key ring app
21:53:13 <lament> i know what the possibilities are
21:53:22 <AnMaster> to connect all these openids in some web-2.social way
21:53:24 <lament> there's tab notation, there's lilipond-style text-based format
21:53:31 <ehird> AnMaster: or just... ignore them>
21:53:41 <AnMaster> ehird, that works too, but is less sarcastic
21:53:42 <ehird> you're only meant to have 1 openid.
21:53:44 <lament> but those possibilities suck, so my questios really is
21:53:56 <ehird> lament: invent your own.
21:54:16 <ehird> lament: base it on rotation.
21:54:17 <AnMaster> ehird, err, a lot of sites I do have normal logins on apparently also provide openid based on that login, Not my fault.
21:54:20 <ehird> everybody loves rotations.
21:54:29 <lament> bsmntbombdood: you mean in tab notation?
21:54:30 <ehird> AnMaster: they are not offering an openid.
21:54:36 <ehird> AnMaster: they are accepting openids.
21:54:57 <ehird> yes, you're only meant to use one.
21:55:09 <AnMaster> ehird, for example it turned out I could use https://launchpad.net/~anmaster as an openid... saw that just now
21:55:10 <bsmntbombdood> you can even put it on multiple lines and make it polyphonic
21:55:35 <ehird> AnMaster: you would be an idiot to use launchpad as an OpenID. who wants to delegate their online identity to them?
21:55:37 <lament> bsmntbombdood: what would the numbers mean?
21:55:47 <AnMaster> ehird, that is true... I wouldn't use it
21:55:59 <ehird> that's only the third time you've said that
21:56:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just reinforcing my argument or something ;P
21:56:22 <ehird> AnMaster: so why are you using electricity
21:56:30 <AnMaster> anyway, if you are just meant to have one openid...
21:56:34 <ehird> how do you know the electricity company isn't monitoring your secret files
21:56:36 <AnMaster> why do so many sites provide it?
21:56:50 <ehird> most people are idiots.
21:57:17 <ehird> ps you can host an openid yourself, yknow.
21:58:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well ps, I don't own any domain I know I will have in 20 years, while an encrypted backup of a keychain that is refreshed every week and for which I know the password...
21:58:20 <AnMaster> for some reason I trust that more :>
21:58:28 <ehird> 20 freaking years?
21:58:41 <ehird> i somehow very much doubt the www will be around as it is now in 20 years.
21:58:43 <AnMaster> ehird, hey, long now foundation is even more extreme
21:59:01 <ehird> totally different.
21:59:18 <AnMaster> why do I have to use relevant arguments?
21:59:27 <AnMaster> it is like boring, + not fair when you don't anyway
21:59:36 <ehird> erm, I do use relevant arguments.
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22:00:00 <ehird> way more often than you, at least.
22:00:01 <oerjan> use elephant arguments
22:00:08 <oerjan> if people disagree, stomp on them
22:00:40 * oerjan stomps on lament |_|_|_|_|
22:00:45 <ehird> holy shit, stomp orgy.
22:00:55 <ehird> it's all my wildest fantasies come true
22:01:09 * oerjan stomps on AnMaster |_|_|_|_|
22:01:22 <AnMaster> Always wear a hard hat on IRC :)
22:01:27 <oerjan> i didn't notice everyone else started before i finished the foot
22:02:06 <oerjan> an elephant foot, naturally
22:02:27 <AnMaster> looked line some glasses side by side
22:02:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, more unvirtually you mean.
22:03:04 * oerjan stomps on AnMaster some more for disagreeing |_|_|_|_|
22:03:49 <oerjan> hm this foot is too small and easily dodgeable
22:03:54 <AnMaster> also that was a less uninstopdededers
22:04:01 <lament> |_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_|
22:04:16 * oerjan uses an apatosaurus foot this time |__|__|__|__|__|
22:06:01 <ehird> Asztal: er, your routine produces upside down images
22:07:00 <oerjan> ehird: aw o+ au!j >|oo| hay+
22:08:05 * oerjan carefully moves away from the ehird black hole
22:08:39 <oerjan> and by that i mean you seem particularly dense
22:10:26 <oerjan> hint: it was a comment on your previous one
22:10:48 <oerjan> <ehird> Asztal: er, your routine produces upside down images
22:10:58 <ehird> was your text meant to be upside down
22:11:01 <ehird> I tried to read it lik ethat
22:11:17 <oerjan> well within the limits of ASCII
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22:15:21 <Asztal> ehird: odd, I don't really remember
22:15:33 <Asztal> I probably only tried it on symmetrical images :D
22:17:12 <ehird> Asztal: in fact, it flips it horizontally too
22:17:17 <ehird> it swaps x and y coords
22:17:26 <ehird> in a 100 px image (99,0) is the top left.
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22:21:54 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
22:23:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> what <-- didn't you once claim that was my typical comment. Fail.
22:23:58 <oerjan> hah, i knew they were legs
22:24:03 <oerjan> no way you have two mouths
22:25:52 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: unless performance critical just flip the image afterwards?
22:26:03 <ehird> i'd prefer to output a correct tga
22:26:11 <ehird> <AnMaster> <ehird> what <-- didn't you once claim that was my typical comment. Fail.
22:26:19 <ehird> I've been saying "what" for years
22:26:36 <ehird> it doesn't mean "what?" it means "i seeeeeee".
22:29:40 * oerjan notes certain things take on a completely new meaning then
22:29:57 <AnMaster> <oerjan> ehird: aw o+ au!j >|oo| hay+
22:30:09 <AnMaster> ehird, no it means "what" in that context
22:30:25 <oklopol> ehird could've been confused by oerjan telling him he's dense.
22:30:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I know what I meant, thanks.
22:31:30 <ehird> -----------------------------
22:31:30 <ehird> | | | --------------
22:31:33 <ehird> -------|---------------------
22:32:01 <FireFly> What's that? A gigantic swatter? :<
22:32:04 <ehird> a lisp cons cell. see http://labs.aezenix.com/lispm/skins/common/images/cons-chip-80.jpg
22:32:15 <ehird> it can probably swat flies too, though
22:34:45 <oerjan> more like swat elephants
22:38:20 <Asztal> I think TGA has two bits in the header you can set to flip the TGA in x or y
22:39:06 <ehird> | 8 | 2 | X Origin of Image. |
22:39:06 <ehird> | | | Integer ( lo-hi ) X coordinate of the lower left corner |
22:39:06 <ehird> | | | of the image. |
22:39:09 <ehird> | 10 | 2 | Y Origin of Image. |
22:39:16 <ehird> | | | Integer ( lo-hi ) Y coordinate of the lower left corner |
22:39:17 <ehird> | | | of the image. |
22:39:20 <ehird> | | | Bit 5 - screen origin bit. |
22:39:30 <ehird> | | | 0 = Origin in lower left-hand corner. |
22:39:31 <ehird> | | | 1 = Origin in upper left-hand corner. |
22:39:32 <ehird> doesn't help for the other problem
22:40:08 <ehird> didn't help either
22:47:36 <ehird> sure, it's a lisp machine
22:47:45 <AnMaster> ehird, wow, one cons cell per chip?
22:47:45 <ehird> an MIT CONS, to be specific
22:47:55 <ehird> that's just the logo of the machines.
23:03:04 <FireFly> Has anyone here played around with WireWorld?
23:03:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ditto.
23:04:12 <ehird> end the scourge of computing slums
23:04:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: y'know, now I cannot die until that is done.
23:04:31 <ehird> i have temporary immortality!
23:05:46 <oerjan> as opposed to spatial immortality
23:07:58 <oerjan> from this we conclude that the clue to full immortality is to find a way to transport formalin faster than light.
23:23:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: iirc, you don't
23:23:20 <ehird> you offer the neccessary hooks for the language to do it
23:23:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you don't actually run lisp on the hardware -- you still compile -- just it's an instruction set suited for lisp
23:23:41 <ehird> also, I'm not really sure
23:23:46 <ehird> hooks into finding objects, or something like that
23:26:10 <bsmntbombdood> you can probably make continuations nicer with hardware support
23:27:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: look up 'orthogonal persistence'
23:27:19 <ehird> it's totally suited to a lisp machine
23:28:52 <ehird> 14:56:22 <shrdlu-> chat bots are stupid
23:28:52 <ehird> 14:56:35 <shrdlu-> please stop talking about them
23:28:53 <ehird> 14:56:38 <shrdlu-> everyone
23:28:53 <ehird> 14:56:40 <shrdlu-> in the world
23:31:46 <bsmntbombdood> if the operating system supports it, you can do copying gc without copying
23:32:10 <ehird> a modern lisp machine would totally make me stop hating computers
23:41:02 <ehird> so bsmntbombdood. have it on my desk by tomorrow
23:49:08 <AnMaster> <oerjan> from this we conclude that the clue to full immortality is to find a way to transport formalin faster than light. <-- :D
23:52:12 <oerjan> and a little bit of special relativity.
23:52:56 <AnMaster> O, Wise Oerjan, would you please describe the logical steps to teach that conclusion.
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23:54:35 <oerjan> Why, to get full immortality we must naturally have both temporal and spatial immortality, as mentioned above.
23:55:03 <oerjan> Also, formalin allows us spatial immortality, also above.
23:55:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes, indeed, but you got temporal immortality due to wanting to complete a Lisp Machine
23:55:44 <ehird> also, it was temporary
23:55:45 <AnMaster> "you" in the generic sense here
23:55:47 <ehird> oerjan was punning
23:55:54 <ehird> AnMaster: "you" cannot be generic there
23:56:01 <AnMaster> so where did you end up faster than light
23:56:04 <ehird> "but you gain temporal immortality" would be valid
23:56:11 <ehird> AnMaster: #esoteric
23:56:38 <AnMaster> ah of course... #esoteric explains it
23:57:01 <oerjan> By special relativity, space can be converted into time by a suitable change of speed. For full conversion, however, faster than light travel is necessary. Q.E.D.
23:59:23 <AnMaster> ehird, you still like small talk right?
23:59:30 <ehird> Smalltalk, yes. small talk, no.
23:59:33 <AnMaster> Visual Smalltalk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VistaSmalltalk
00:00:04 <oerjan> So I shouldn't mention how tomorrow is forecast to be above freezing here for the first time in a while?
00:00:10 -!- FireFly has left (?).
00:00:17 <ehird> it was actually pretty neat
00:00:28 <ehird> yes, it ran on flash too
00:00:32 <ehird> it was smalltalk in a browser
00:01:29 <oerjan> Which, paradoxically, will of course only ensure that we get _more_ ice and dangerous roads.
00:02:31 <oerjan> if "wut" = "i seeee" then i think "i seeee" must mean something other than i think
00:03:05 <oerjan> or are "what", "vut" and "wut" not equivalent?
00:05:11 <ehird> oerjan: not equivalent
00:05:18 <ehird> also, I seeee is kind of sarcastic
00:05:27 <ehird> "what" doesn't mean "what", it means "wow, that was completely incomprehensible"
00:05:36 <ehird> "wut" means "I see your LSD there."
00:05:43 <ehird> "vut" means "huh?"
00:07:28 <ehird> no. that does not work.
00:08:30 <ehird> project euler problem #1: 1 1000 [a,b) [ [ 3 mod zero? ] [ 5 mod zero? ] bi or ] filter sum
00:08:53 <ehird> (find the sum of all multiples of 3 and 5 below 1000)
00:10:10 <ehird> 25*:*25**1-00p010p>00g 3% #v_10g00g+10pv
00:10:20 <ehird> >00g5%#v_10g00g+10p^
00:15:34 <AnMaster> INIT: store 1000 in (0,-1)... write 0 in (0,1)
00:16:31 <AnMaster> (read from 0,0) % 3,compare to 0.. branch...
00:17:06 <AnMaster> if 0 then check 5... compare to 0... branch...
00:18:04 <AnMaster> if 0 it adds it to another variable
00:18:41 <ehird> well, it works, says the author
00:18:47 <ehird> it is befunge-93, I think
00:18:56 <AnMaster> that is all that is left to figure out
00:19:17 <AnMaster> read from 0,0, substract 1, write to 0,0
00:19:52 <AnMaster> and it stored 999 to 0,0, not 10000 to 0,-1
00:20:04 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed the program should work
00:21:07 <oerjan> why is it 25*:*25** rather than simply 25*::**
00:22:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, you could golf that code quite a lot
00:22:35 <oerjan> hm right project euler isn't a golf site
00:22:55 <AnMaster> I mean using swap instead of getting from funge space all the time
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05:01:15 <GregorR> ehird: I see you posted something about WSGIScriptAlias in .htaccess ... did you ever find a workaround?
05:01:24 <GregorR> (Unless this is a different ehird :) )
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14:39:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wherza lisp machine
14:39:41 <ehird> 21:01:15 <GregorR> ehird: I see you posted something about WSGIScriptAlias in .htaccess ... did you ever find a workaround?
14:39:43 <ehird> 21:01:24 <GregorR> (Unless this is a different ehird :) )
14:39:47 <ehird> just put it in an httpd.conf :P
14:39:49 <ehird> less elegant? yep. meh.
14:40:23 <ehird> ELLIOTT, bitch ass.
14:40:40 <ehird> ais523: I've been playing with massively overcomitting mmaps
14:40:47 <ehird> I can mmap 2.5 GB but not (size_t)-1
14:42:54 <ais523> ehird: no, I ran into a vampire in minetown and wasn't watching my hitpoints
14:43:01 <ais523> s/minetown/mine's end/
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14:43:52 * ehird decides to write a program to search for the maximum I can mmap
14:47:10 <ehird> which is greater than the memory I actually have..
14:47:42 <ais523> how much swap do you have?
14:48:04 <ehird> ehm... I think OS X has infinite swap
14:48:13 <ehird> I certainly can't configure it
14:49:36 <ehird> ais523: /private/var/vm
14:49:41 <ehird> -rw------T 1 root wheel 64M 11 Feb 21:18 swapfile0
14:49:41 <ehird> -rw------T 1 root wheel 64M 12 Feb 23:26 swapfile1
14:49:41 <ehird> -rw------T 1 root wheel 128M 12 Feb 23:26 swapfile2
14:49:41 <ehird> -rw------T 1 root wheel 256M 16 Feb 00:16 swapfile3
14:49:42 <ehird> -rw------T 1 root wheel 512M 16 Feb 00:27 swapfile4
14:49:42 <ehird> -rw------T 1 root wheel 1.0G 17 Feb 16:31 swapfile5
14:49:59 <ais523> heh, I like the filesizes
14:50:02 <ehird> an odd arrangement indeed
14:50:09 <ais523> it's clearly been using an exponential allocation strategy
14:50:27 <ehird> so I have 2GB of swap
14:50:32 <ehird> ... so, I should try and allocate 4gb
14:50:34 <ehird> maybe a bit less than 4gb
14:51:09 <ehird> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080926085342AA29rTU "Would a 4GB flashdrive hold up 726 bytes?"
14:51:32 <ehird> ais523: ok, I can mmap 4gb
14:51:37 <ehird> I bet it fails if I +1
14:52:11 <ehird> well, most apps are 32-bit. but Factor and this have been -m64'd.
14:52:29 <ehird> ais523: I'm basically trying to find a O(1) way to find out how much I can mmap without mmap realising I'm being tricksy on BSD/Linux
14:52:32 <ais523> ehird: I'm worried by the "best answer" on that, which implies 726 MB > 4 GB
14:52:36 <ehird> but it seems to be semi-arbitrary
14:52:58 <ehird> I'm worried by Yahoo answers i ngeneral!
14:53:07 <ehird> "The 4 GB Flash drive will work, but I would recommend a pocket media drive. They start from 100 GB and can go up to 500 GB. They are very small (fit in a pocket)."
14:53:13 <ais523> because pretty much every question seems to have stupidity in that order in it
14:53:19 <ehird> BECAUSE WHAT IF YOU HAVE TO STORE _MANY_ 726 BYTE FILES
14:53:24 <ais523> also, the first answer is correct, if not properly explained
14:53:36 <ais523> and it's pretty clear the person asking the question dropped the word "mega" from it
14:53:40 <ais523> well, the word-segment
14:53:49 <ehird> It reads size as 726 bytes and size on disc 4.00KB (4,096bytes).
14:53:59 <ehird> that was clearly copied out from the windows property box
14:54:02 <ais523> well in that case, wtf?
14:54:17 <ehird> times like these make me wish computers required licenses.
14:54:23 <ehird> ais523: they could just memorize the file :P
14:54:47 * ais523 picks the most recent question in the electronics section
14:54:51 <ais523> to get a sort of random sample
14:54:52 <ais523> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Apngm_fViZNk8wvQ7TC8QjGzxQt.;_ylv=3?qid=20090218064820AAcLxie
14:54:57 <ehird> http://gyu.que.jp/jscloth/touch.html <- holy feck (enable JS)
14:55:15 <ehird> ais523: haunted computer
14:55:26 <ais523> I was actually wondering if he'd got his computer confused with a TV
14:55:36 <ais523> although it seems to have task manager, so maybe not
14:56:36 <ais523> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AtBwU5Fdpb8IgZySgDYGvDCzxQt.;_ylv=3?qid=20090218015557AA7g5TU is another pretty bad one too
14:56:47 <ehird> factor, by the way, is an excellent language made by someone who knows what they're doing and it's also fast, and has great unicode support and tons of libraries/
14:56:51 <ehird> everyone should try it.
14:57:15 <ehird> (also, the workspace UI is like Smalltalk and Emacs put into one, except it integrates with the OS and you can use your own editor)
14:57:34 <ais523> does it work without the UI too?
14:57:44 <ehird> in which case it's just a regular REPL
14:57:47 <ehird> and you can run programs like that
14:57:50 <ehird> including hash-bang style
14:57:59 <ehird> but the UI is really great for development
14:58:24 <ais523> language tied to IDE = bad
14:58:28 <ais523> language which comes with an IDE = good
14:58:39 <ehird> well, the actual editing is outsourced to whatever editor you wish
14:58:46 <ehird> but it provides tons of hooks and documentation and a REPL etc
14:58:58 <ehird> ais523: the UI itself is rather crazy; it's drawn manually with OpenGL...
14:59:12 <ehird> i'd just use a gui toolkit :D
14:59:18 <ehird> hmm, I forgot to mention that factor's a functional, concatenative lang
14:59:30 <ais523> I guessed, I think I've heard of it vaguely
14:59:33 <ehird> basically joy except usable.
15:00:00 <ehird> It's made by the guy who wrote jEdit, if you've heard of that
15:01:08 <ehird> ais523: it's crazy how much random stuff it has
15:02:30 <ehird> it comes with a library for graphs, continuations, a full objective-c bridge with helper functions for making cocoa UIs, a bloody web framework, cellular automata stuff, coroutines, a pong game using the UI, a tetris game using the UI,...
15:02:46 <ehird> oh, and a sudoku solver
15:02:50 <ehird> (the latter ones are just demos, though)
15:03:15 <ehird> it also has proper compiler macros, which is always nice
15:05:03 <ehird> it reminds me of smalltalk quite a lot
15:05:13 <ehird> and it pops up the word's definition in your editor
15:07:42 <ehird> apparently the optimizing native-code compiler is really good, not as good as ocaml though
15:11:33 <ehird> <eiz> ESR wrote "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" and, uh... maintains fetchmail
15:11:39 <ehird> -- 2004-10-12, but not #esoteric
15:11:52 <ais523> how could he forget about C-INTERCAL?
15:12:07 <ehird> he gave up on C-INTERCAL.
15:12:11 <ehird> it was too cool. not crap enough.
15:12:15 <ais523> well, yes, but he still invented it
15:12:26 <ais523> and 2004 is well before I started maintaining it
15:12:35 <ehird> ais523: he thought it was a serious language, and was going to rewrite fetchmail in it
15:12:44 <ehird> when he realised it was a joke, he hastily amended the README to reflect this and abandoned it
15:13:00 <ehird> that's what he wants you to think
15:13:05 <ehird> "Your IP address is: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1" -- factor example app
15:13:09 <ehird> oh so fancy, with yer ipv6.
15:13:54 <ehird> so when is everyone going to start using ipv6 again?
15:14:56 <ehird> <eiz> Oh yeah, and he also single-handedly ruined the Jargon File. I hate him =(
15:14:58 <ehird> this guy talks sense.
15:15:10 <ehird> the sad face does it.
15:17:44 <ehird> ais523: 16:15:56 <eiz> Oh, there was that INTERCAL compiler too
15:17:58 <ehird> an eizaphant never forgets
15:23:11 <ehird> haha wow, you can use ^H as a variable name in SBCL
15:23:40 <ehird> you can use ^X though
15:39:01 <ehird> I Have an important request that made me to contact you; I am Mr.Wolak Rakan, I found Your profile very interesting and decided to reach you directly to solicit your assistance and Guidelines in making a business investment and transfer of (£12.5M GBP) to your country within the Next few days.
15:39:13 <ehird> gmail has failed to filter this, so I think I'll play along
15:39:45 <oklopol> will you give me a bit too?
15:40:06 <ais523> some people have even died as the result of scams or scambaiting attempts
15:40:24 <oklopol> why haven't i heard, links
15:40:24 <ehird> I'm kind of doubting sending a few silly emails will result in my death...
15:40:31 <ais523> basically, they got involved with criminals as a result and the criminals didn't like what happened
15:40:57 <ehird> i was going to go for the sillier tactics. like 'what about my fluffy bunny pal'.
15:41:15 <ehird> it's from a "Wolak Rakan"
15:41:18 <ehird> and the sig is in chinese
15:41:22 <ehird> it's an exotic 419!
15:41:39 <ehird> ... the sig links to an ecard service.
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16:32:00 <ais523> <liquidpele> And no, smilies cannot ever face left just like you can never go back in time.
16:34:33 * ais523 is reading the source to netcat
16:37:05 <ehird> ais523: Hobbit netcat
16:37:16 <ehird> (I prefer the former, as you know...)
16:37:26 <ehird> ais523: it is typical for ~1996 unix hacker sort of culture.
16:37:55 <ais523> nc: invalid option -- '-'
16:38:00 <ais523> I'm guessing it isn't the GNU version, then
16:38:06 <ehird> nc: illegal option -- -
16:38:06 <ehird> usage: nc [-46DdhklnrtUuvz] [-i interval] [-p source_port]
16:38:06 <ehird> [-s source_ip_address] [-w timeout] [-X proxy_version]
16:38:06 <ehird> [-x proxy_address[:port]] [hostname] [port[s]]
16:38:21 <ehird> ais523: does your usage look like that?
16:38:34 <ais523> it just said "nc -h for help"
16:38:47 <ehird> ais523: you have the source, surely you can check the comment header?!?!?!
16:39:10 <ais523> ah yes, it's the hobbit version
16:39:30 <ehird> yep, that's the latest
16:39:53 <ehird> it's solid code, what's not typical about it, ais523?
16:40:05 <ehird> well, okay, it uses poop as a variable name, that is a bit strange.
16:40:17 <ehird> register HINF * poop = NULL;
16:40:23 <ehird> from function HINF * gethostpoop (name, numeric)
16:40:27 <ehird> I assume poop actually means something
16:40:36 <ehird> ais523: they're entertaining
16:40:46 <ais523> how often do you see that in source nowadays?
16:41:16 <ehird> #ifdef GAPING_SECURITY_HOLE
16:41:16 <ehird> char * pr00gie = NULL;/* global ptr to -e arg */
16:41:25 <ehird> i bet -e was a last-minute afterthought
16:41:40 <ehird> oh? did you ask him? :P
16:41:42 <ais523> according to the readme if you turn that on in a suid root version of netcat, you're in trouble
16:42:00 <ehird> I just mean 'pr00gie'
16:42:14 <ehird> incidentally, this guy fell off the face of the earth after releasing a few netcat releases
16:42:16 <ais523> the readme implies that he was preempting stupid packaging by giving the option a scary name
16:42:29 <ehird> to a sufficient degree that bitrot has made google return no relevant results
16:42:49 <ehird> and the only page you can get is the netcat page via the internet archive, IIRC
16:43:02 <ehird> I wonder if this guy is a perl coder
16:43:32 <ais523> no, I think this is the sort of person who invented Carp
16:43:38 <ais523> it's the other way round
16:43:54 <ehird> Debug (("ipoptions ret len %d", x))
16:43:57 <ehird> damn, it's old-school debug macros.
16:44:49 * ais523 suddenly wonders how many commercial programs look like netcat
16:45:06 <ehird> /* can *you* say "cc -yaddayadda netcat.c -lresolv -l44bsd" on SunLOSs? */
16:45:11 <ehird> I don't know, can I?
16:45:40 <ehird> more cursing, though.
16:45:44 <ehird> and less.. working
16:45:53 <ehird> /* If your shitbox doesn't have getopt, step into the nineties already. */
16:45:57 <ehird> wow, a time when systems didn't have getopt
16:46:13 <ais523> at least, not without cygwin or some other library
16:46:16 <ehird> does windows count as a system, relaly
16:46:32 <ehird> helpme();/* exits by itself */
16:46:32 <ehird> bail ("no help available, dork -- RTFS");
16:46:38 <ehird> now why would you not define HAVE_HELP?
16:46:46 <ais523> to make the executable smaller, obviously
16:47:36 <ehird> ais523: nope - smugness
16:47:36 <ehird> #ifdef HAVE_HELP/* unless we wanna be *really* cryptic */
16:48:09 <ais523> tbh, options are one thing that can normally be deduced from the source, unless it's intentionally obfuscated
16:48:39 <ehird> /* None genuine without this seal! _H*/
16:48:48 <ehird> Unforgable electronic signature
16:49:03 <ais523> hey, it didn't say it guaranteed the source was genuine
16:49:08 <ais523> just that the source wasn't genuine without it
16:50:55 <ehird> ais523: when you wanna make an FPGA-type thing you use vhdl or verilog right?
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16:51:30 <ehird> ais523: see i was thinking about bsmntbombdood's yesterday idea of a modern lisp machine in fpga
16:51:40 <ehird> and it wouldnt' feel right to make a lisp machine in anything but something using lisp, y'know?
16:51:46 <ais523> I have no idea how to code up a lisp machine, really
16:51:52 <ais523> and you have to start somewhere
16:52:03 <ehird> well, if you're in the 80s and a company, you make yer own damn chip
16:52:06 <ais523> I mean, I can sort-of understand how to implement Lisp in an imperative manner
16:52:13 <ais523> but not in a behavioural manner
16:52:15 <ehird> oh, you don't implement lisp on the chip directly
16:52:37 <ehird> ais523: what machine code is to C, lisp machine code is to lisp
16:52:55 <ais523> I guessed it would be something like that
16:52:58 <ehird> i.e., a relatively simple translation, with features specificalyl designed to make parts of the latter easier
16:53:16 <ehird> although, lisp machines are closer to Lisp than x86 is to C
16:53:24 <ehird> since they were bsaically designed to do lisp and nothing else
16:58:04 <ehird> ais523: say, that solving a maze with random walk thing in ocaml you said was so fast
16:58:16 <ehird> care to paste your code? I'd be interested in seeing how well factor does, speed-wise
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16:58:41 <ais523> ehird: legally can't, I don't have the copyright on it
16:58:50 <ehird> Ouch; copyright assignment?
16:58:53 <ais523> working for a university is ridiculous
16:59:24 <ehird> Just imagine, people do that willingly. With the FSF.
16:59:28 <ehird> They think it's a _good thing_...
16:59:57 <ais523> well, for small submissions, when you don't care about the licence anyway, it makes it easier for the FSF to sue people infringing the copyright
17:00:37 <ehird> if you don't care there's no point suing.
17:00:40 <ehird> I <3 centralization. ... not
17:00:46 <ais523> ehird: if you don't care and they do
17:00:58 <ais523> then you might agree to the requirement so as to get your code in their projects
17:01:02 <ais523> I mean, you don't care but the FSF does
17:01:09 <ehird> I'm saying that the whole concept is ridiculous
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17:04:28 <ehird> the factor CLI reminds me of running the mathematica kernel directly and I don't know why
17:04:28 <ehird> [ehird:/Applications/Factor] % ./factor
17:04:29 <ehird> ( scratchpad ) 1 0 /
17:04:29 <ehird> Type :help for debugging help.
17:04:46 <ais523> well, that's reverse polish, which looks concatenative right away
17:04:58 <ais523> also, I've never tried to run the mathematica kernel directly
17:04:59 <ehird> I just mean the general feel of it
17:05:29 <ehird> [ehird:/Applications/Mathematica.app/Contents/MacOS] % ./MathKernel
17:05:29 <ehird> Mathematica 7.0 for Mac OS X x86 (64-bit)
17:05:29 <ehird> Copyright 1988-2008 Wolfram Research, Inc.
17:05:31 <ehird> Power::infy: Infinite expression - encountered.
17:05:35 <ehird> Out[1]= ComplexInfinity
17:05:40 <ehird> er, sorry for the flood
17:05:53 <ehird> I guess it's just having used a similar GUI interface,then seeing it emulated at a console
17:06:13 <ais523> hmm... they don't seem all that similar
17:06:22 <ais523> they're both REPLs, but I don't see more of a similarity than that
17:06:54 <ais523> in fact the Mathematica kernel reminds me more of the Perl debug REPLs on CPAN than of the Factor one
17:07:08 <ehird> ais523: they're both mainly used via UI interfaces that look essentially the same, but are richer in the UI environment
17:07:25 <ehird> giving a sort of detached feeling. But I'm just odd.
17:09:39 <ehird> also, there's a slight problem with factor's pong demo
17:09:44 <ehird> specifically, the AI is unbeatable.
17:09:56 <ais523> that's not a problem, it just makes the game different
17:10:05 <ais523> as in, changing it from "can you win" to "how long will you last"?
17:10:22 <ehird> ais523: true. but you can't score at all
17:12:20 <ehird> ais523: how much do you reckon my system will let me mmap?
17:12:52 <ais523> it would be nice if it was exactly your free memory + your free disk space
17:12:58 <ais523> I'd be really impressed with Apple if it was that
17:13:02 <ehird> naw, it's a bit less unfortunately
17:13:07 <ehird> I'm thinking it's 3.5GB
17:13:15 <ehird> as I have 2.5GB and 2GB of swap
17:13:37 <ehird> [problem is, determining this in a portable way across linux/bsd
17:14:07 <ehird> hmm nope, more than 4.5GB
17:14:28 <ehird> i can allocate 5gb
17:14:45 * ehird puts sleep(10), to see if Activity Monitor puts it at 'Virtual memory: 5gb'
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17:15:24 <ehird> ais523: it pputs it at virtual memory = 7.5gb...
17:16:21 <ehird> i guess it realises it's playing dirty tricks
17:16:40 <ais523> can you quickly write to all that 4.5GB in ten seconds
17:16:47 <ais523> maybe one byte per megabyte for speed?
17:16:58 <ehird> heh, I'll make it write to it
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17:17:13 <ehird> I'll write to it at 5368709110
17:17:17 <ehird> which is about 10 bytes from the end
17:17:36 <ehird> zsh: segmentation fault ./overcommit
17:18:36 <ais523> well, I'm slightly surprised it's a segfault not some other sort of error
17:18:54 <ehird> ais523: the OS just lies to the program
17:18:58 <ehird> and gives it back a smaller space
17:19:04 <ehird> (that can expand at will)
17:19:55 <ehird> writing to it puts it at 7.5GB real m emory then grows to 1.19GB real memory, then my system lags like fuck and I have to terminate it
17:20:04 <ehird> somewhere in the vicinity of 323000000 in
17:20:11 <ehird> (out of 5368709120)
17:20:17 <ehird> 7.5GB virtual memory
17:20:58 <ehird> ais523: I can write to [323000000] then read it fine
17:21:00 <ehird> (if I do nothing else)
17:21:10 <ehird> presumably, it breaks down if I go further than my free memory
17:21:16 <ehird> which OS X sez is 1.21GB
17:22:55 <ehird> ais523: writing to 5000000000 out of 5368709120 segfaults
17:23:00 <ehird> i can use up to my total memory
17:23:18 <ais523> ah, I can see how that would happen
17:23:26 <ais523> or maybe up to your total memory - the amount the OS absolutely needs
17:23:39 <ehird> yep, [1610612736] segfaults
17:23:47 <ehird> so I'll try 1610000000
17:23:59 <ehird> that also segfaults
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17:24:10 <ehird> so does 1600000000...
17:25:07 <ehird> ais523: heh, if I assign to [1000000000] activity monitor says 7.56GB, as if I was using all the previous data
17:25:12 <ehird> overcomitting is _weird_
17:25:49 <ehird> ais523: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080513171119AAYgfzE <- wtf @ best answer
17:26:39 <ais523> I reckon there are people who go around yahoo answers upvoting obviously stupid answers for fun
17:26:56 <ehird> ais523: that was chosen by the asker
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17:28:54 <ehird> anyway, here's my current code:
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17:29:30 <ehird> ais523: http://pastie.org/393011.txt?key=hgvohjpomjrqkeebq3smg
17:29:45 <ehird> could you try it on your system? I assume it'll fail due to the large amounts, but I'm curious as to what point
17:29:49 <ehird> the mmap? the assignment?
17:30:02 <ais523> ehird: I know from experience not to mess with overcommitting on here
17:30:17 <ehird> I don't think my program can break your computer ...
17:30:25 <ais523> it's taken me half an hour to unthrash it after accidentally using up too much memory when compiling C-INTERCAL
17:30:37 <ehird> ais523: ah, well mine won't use more than 1 integer's worth of memory
17:30:37 <ais523> so it doesn't break the computer, but it makes it unusable for a while
17:30:48 <ehird> since it doesn't use any more than one integer's worth
17:30:49 <ais523> well, I don't have much memory
17:30:58 <ehird> do you have sizeof(int) memory? :P
17:31:06 <ais523> considerably less IIRC
17:31:29 <ehird> what kind of computer is that
17:31:32 <ehird> that cannot hold an int
17:31:41 <ais523> apparently I have 1000.2 MiB of memory
17:32:11 <ais523> ehird: I wasn't sure of the units, I assumed you were referring to an int-range of memory
17:32:17 <ehird> no, I meant one integer :P
17:32:20 <ais523> but that max memory value is pretty suspicious by itself
17:32:30 <ehird> well, technically it stores an integer pointer too.
17:34:45 <ehird> ais523: I predict the mmap will just fail
17:34:55 <ehird> as overcommitting seems to be careful to a degree
17:34:58 <oklopol> for a second there i thought ais523 has a bignum computer.
17:35:05 <oklopol> well i didn't, but i hoped.
17:35:08 <ais523> meh, maybe I'll turn overcommit off and then run it
17:35:14 <ehird> that will definitely fail...
17:35:22 <ehird> oklopol: omg that'd be amazing.
17:35:28 <ehird> i bet the lispms had that
17:35:29 <ais523> or set it to always overcommit even in ridiculous circumstances mode
17:35:44 <ehird> who came up with overcomitting
17:35:50 <oklopol> yessssssss everything should be implemented hardware level, it may be stupid, but damn it's cool.
17:38:08 <ehird> On the structure of the cohomology of nilpotent Lie algebras (2007) - my masters thesis, written under the supervision of Barry Jessup and Paul-Eugene Parent.
17:38:13 <ehird> I think this is the only reason I actually like factor
17:38:28 <ehird> the author wrote that :P
17:38:37 <ehird> and it makes absolutely no sense
17:38:40 <ais523> have you read it, or do you just like the na,e?
17:38:53 <ehird> it reads like it was generated
17:38:54 <ehird> http://factorcode.org/result.pdf
17:40:02 <ais523> ehird: you clearly don't read many academic papers, then
17:40:11 <ehird> I just don't understand them
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17:41:05 <ais523> have you read mine about the 2,3 machine, by the way?
17:41:13 <ais523> admittedly, it's rather boring
17:41:17 <ehird> wasn't it typeset in arial?
17:41:26 <ais523> no idea, quite possibly
17:41:30 <ais523> it was just an openoffice file
17:41:48 <ais523> ah, I remember what happened
17:42:00 <ehird> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/TM23Proof.pdf
17:42:04 <ais523> I think I was using a linux-specific font, they wanted to put some mathematica code at the end so I sent them the .odt
17:42:07 <ehird> looks like Univers
17:42:15 <ehird> the actual text is times
17:42:16 <ais523> and they somehow managed to mess up the conversion of the edited version to pdf
17:42:21 <ehird> in fact, I think it's times new roma
17:43:05 <ais523> wow, that Mathematica at the end is ugly
17:43:12 <ehird> it's really long too
17:43:31 <ais523> I hadn't really mastered the habit of concise Mathematica, that requires memorising the entire stdlib really
17:44:18 <ais523> ironically, the Perl does the same thing as the Mathematica and runs a lot faster
17:44:28 <ais523> so if they wanted to show off their prize programming language, they failed
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17:46:51 <ehird> It is irritating that SBCL's only UI is emacs.
17:47:14 <ehird> (The non-editing-supporting, dumb-terminal sbcl(1) does not count)
17:47:41 <ais523> obviously, readline should be a wrapper program, not a library
17:47:59 <ais523> that's a lot more UNIXy, and would probably work just as well
17:48:19 <ehird> but sbcl is a mainly closed-world system, like most lisps.
17:48:24 <ehird> you shouldn't have to do that
17:48:38 <ehird> also, it doesn't work as well
17:48:41 <ehird> e.g., tab completion
17:48:53 <ais523> does readline do tab-completion?
17:50:08 <ehird> ais523: if readline was a wrapper, rms couldn't harass the clisp author with false accusations to make him use the gpl.
17:50:17 <ehird> think of the childr^Wfsf
17:50:21 <ais523> yes, I was just thinking the same thing
17:55:23 <ehird> ais523: i wonder if my cynicism rubs off on everyone
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17:57:26 <ehird> Wonder how much an old lisp machine costs.
17:57:32 <ehird> (A: A lot. Probably.)
17:59:33 <ehird> lol, the scammer replied
17:59:46 <ehird> Thank you for your mail, however I want to bring it to your notice that this business we are trying to do must Need at least 7 working days with full concentration, no matter how engage you may be in order for it to be concluded successfully.
17:59:48 <ehird> [blah blah blah blah]
17:59:59 <ehird> Finally, I want to remind you of the importance for you to keep this business very secret and confidential until this fund is transferred into your account, bearing in mind the nature of what we are doing. If you think we should proceed and agree with the terms then reconfirm your name and address ,telephone and fax number for me to prepare the agreement.I want you to bear it in mind that this is 100% risk free and legal.
18:00:22 <ais523> 7 working days with full concentration? I wouldn't be able to concentrate for that long...
18:00:35 <ehird> i'm tempted to ask some sort of question about child labour
18:05:38 <ehird> what's the emacs way to hook into when an autoload triggers?
18:05:48 <ais523> I can't remember offhand
18:05:51 <ais523> I think it involves add-hook
18:05:57 <ais523> but I'm not sure what hook to hook into
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18:31:12 <bsmntbombdood> if you have an fpga you can have a piece that's constantly garbage collecting in the background
18:34:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: mark-and-sweep is hideously stupid.
18:35:15 <ehird> sure is, if you're doing it for a whole freaking machine
18:35:26 <ehird> also, you can't really do much more than a conservative gc
18:35:43 <ehird> lisp machines run other code too
18:35:48 <ais523> doesn't refcounting work in lisp?
18:35:49 <ehird> and you can access memory directly with them
18:35:56 <ehird> ais523: no. circular data structures.
18:35:56 <ais523> because there's no way to express a cycle of references?
18:36:05 <bsmntbombdood> a lisp machine knows what you can do with pointers in lisp
18:36:09 <ais523> ah, how do you get a circular data structure in lisp?
18:36:28 <ehird> (defvar butts (cons 1 nil)) (replacd butts butts)
18:36:32 <oklopol> in some lisps there's even syntax for naming parts of a structure and referring from within
18:36:37 <ehird> butts ;=> #1#=(1 . #1#)
18:36:42 <ehird> (Printing syntax may be wrong, it's from memory)
18:36:56 <ais523> hmm... I didn't even realise Lisp allowed that sort of thing
18:37:15 <oklopol> hmm right that's scheme's output syntax wasn't it?
18:37:20 <ais523> amusingly, Perl allows that sort of thing but explicitly says it creates a memory leak, the programmer has to break the cycle for the resulting object to be garbage-collected
18:37:32 <ehird> [18:37:15] <oklopol> hmm right that's scheme's output syntax wasn't it?
18:37:35 <ehird> well, it's an extension
18:38:06 <ais523> ehird: yes definitely, I've read the helpfiles about it
18:38:07 <ehird> lisp, in colloquial usage = common lisp and its kin/parents
18:38:12 <ehird> ais523: I was replying to bsmntbombdood
18:38:13 <ais523> oh, you're saying no to bsmntbombdood
18:38:25 <bsmntbombdood> lisp is a class of languages, containing LISP, common lisp, and scheme, among others
18:38:28 <ais523> also, Perl has weaken which I think is one of my new favourite useful yet esoteric keywords
18:38:39 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: so {scheme} \subset lisp
18:38:49 <ais523> it causes a pointer to not count for the purposes of refcounting, and if the refcount goes down to 0, the pointer immediately becomes undef
18:39:40 <oklopol> or maybe scheme \subset (\union lisp), where \union unions the features of lisps in genera
18:39:49 <oklopol> but that might make a tiny bit less sense
18:40:12 <oklopol> not really, just a bit less.
18:40:54 <oklopol> ais523: python and c have that too, they're just not keywords
18:41:23 <ais523> oklopol: well, C++ needs all memory management to be done by the user, and explicit free
18:41:28 <ais523> so you could implement weaken by hand, I suppose
18:41:34 <ais523> how do you do it in python?
18:42:02 <oklopol> at least i assume that's what they do, could be something slightly different, since i haven't actually looked at them.
18:43:09 <ehird> del is completely unrelated
18:43:33 <oklopol> yeah it is pretty unrelated
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18:47:04 <oklopol> ais523: well if you just use pointers, they are automatically weak; i'm talking about boost's strong and weak pointers
18:47:36 <ais523> well, they aren't properly automatically weak
18:47:47 <ais523> because they don't become NULL when the thing they point to is freed
18:48:35 <oklopol> i don't see how that's something inherent to a weak pointer
18:48:49 <ais523> well, it's one of their more useful properties
18:49:35 <oklopol> i guess the issue is whether the weak/strong distinction is about technicalities, that is, getting refcounting to work, or whether it's something that's actually used for some purpose
18:49:40 <oklopol> for the latter, they need to be nulled
18:49:53 <oklopol> but i think boost's philosophy is the former
18:50:04 <ais523> ah, the latter is what I was using in my Perl program
18:51:18 <oklopol> i mean without nulling, there is no way to know whether the object has been removed, so the weak pointer will have to have died anyway at some point, or bugs will occur, so they could just as well have been strong, because from their perspective they're always pointing to a living object.
18:51:37 <oklopol> of course, this is kind of a triviality, dunno why i'm explaining it.
18:53:11 <ehird> Poor man's lisp comment: '
18:53:48 <ais523> that's like ()! in Underload/Underlambda
18:54:00 <ehird> it's useful because you don't have to comment out every line of the form
18:54:06 <ais523> or maybe ''' in Python
18:54:14 <ais523> is ''' or """ more common, by the way?
18:54:48 <ehird> the REPL prints out '.' unless the str contains ' in which case it prints "."
18:55:14 <ehird> ais523: common lisp has somethign specifically for it
18:55:23 <ehird> so if you just want something for sbcl you do
18:55:33 <ehird> #+nil obviously comments out the next form
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19:07:55 <ehird> this is rather difficult
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19:21:38 <ehird> http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/standards/Ie8BlacklistForcingStandardsRenderingOptIn ;; Correct fix: write bot to mark all pages as that. distribute it. microsoft reverts change. profit.
19:22:36 <ais523> err... what? Microsoft /re-reverted/ that?
19:22:55 <ehird> nope, they just added an insidious feature that makes it actually neccessary
19:23:09 <ehird> microsoft 1 humans 0
19:23:10 <ais523> the more worrying thing there is the automatically updating list
19:23:19 <ais523> that implies that IE8 sends to Microsoft information on which websites you visit
19:23:22 <ais523> otherwise, how could it update?
19:23:31 <ehird> only for the sites you click the button on
19:24:37 <ais523> anyway, it's been discovered that IE8 has exponential performance on nested absolutely-positioned <div>s
19:24:54 <ais523> it seems that 25 nested absolutely-positioned <div>s is enough to crash most high-spec computers
19:25:26 <ais523> I wonder if Microsoft will fix that one?
19:25:42 <ais523> or if you can just put a website with that markup in, as a logo or something?
19:26:01 <ais523> if the website makes the computer, people will probably blame it on IE not the website
19:26:03 <ehird> i hope the IE team goes and does something more suited for their level of intelligence
19:26:06 <ehird> like, say, playschool
19:26:18 <ais523> actually, I think the IE team are very intelligent and given stupid orders by management
19:26:24 <ais523> such as what to prioritise, and what to implement or not
19:26:29 <ehird> surely they could just follow the orders on a technicality?
19:26:32 <ehird> how do they sleep at night?
19:28:35 <ais523> "Despite all the outreach to sites, we saw from the telemetry data that IE8 Beta 2 users still have to use Compatibility View a lot."
19:28:39 <ais523> why does that scare me a lot?
19:29:28 <ais523> also, they mention Opera does something similar, although it probably isn't at all similar
19:29:35 <ais523> that article looks like it's trying to pre-emptively avoid criticism
19:31:13 <ais523> hmm... http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/ looks interesting
19:36:14 <ehird> can't figure out how to hook into slime to get "tell me when the repl buffer is ready"
19:36:18 <ehird> to resize it to be smaller
19:36:29 <ehird> superior lisp interaction mode for emacs
19:36:38 <ehird> it basically imitates the lisp machine editor
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19:42:08 <ehird> all the cool kids seem to use emacs fully maximized.
19:42:31 <ehird> also, does knuth really expect to be alive to write the 7th volume of taocp?
19:43:31 <ais523> emacs is designed to be fully maximised, I think, as it's meant to be an entire UI not just an editor
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19:48:06 <ais523> as for that IE8 stuff, I'm wondering about submitting it to Slashdot to give kdawson something else to bash
19:48:09 <ais523> do you think that's a good idea?
19:48:40 <ais523> who posts all sorts of anti-Microsoft stories even if they make no sense
19:49:07 <ais523> when there are loads of legitimate reasons to bash Microsoft, why pick stupid ones?
19:50:08 <ais523> ehird: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/16/2259257&from=rss was one of the stupider ones recently
19:50:29 <ais523> "oh no, I cracked Photoshop by replacing a DLL, now it doesn't work, it must be Windows 7 DRM!"
19:51:48 <ehird> wow, Leopard makes dark windows actually look nice. now I can be a super-leet haxor.
19:52:13 <ais523> actually, dark windows are popular so as to hurt your eyes less
19:52:21 <ehird> i don't have crap eyes :D
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19:52:26 <ehird> i wonder where emacs's scroll-like-the-rest-of-my-system-not-a-jumpy-weird-ass-piece-of-crap setting is
20:00:40 <oerjan> <ehird> ais523: i wonder if my cynicism rubs off on everyone
20:05:38 <ehird> m-xc ustomize is so flaky
20:05:41 <ehird> why can't it write out regular variables
20:11:25 <ehird> ais523: oerjan: new vote: I switch to linux or bsd and use a tiling window manager so this isn't a problem.
20:11:54 <ais523> ehird: "vote"? for what?
20:12:03 <ehird> I am unable to make decisions :-D
20:12:19 * oerjan votes for xmonad, if only because it's in haskell
20:13:02 * oerjan goes back to IE in the other window
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20:21:30 <lament> I would use emacs if I were an idiot fuckhead moron.
20:21:48 <ehird> i'm a regular guy who wants to use lisp so I have to be an idiot fuckhead moron
20:22:02 <lament> good point, i suppose there's nothing better than slime
20:22:11 <lament> because nobody cares enough about lisp to write something better
20:22:26 <ehird> lament: lisp machine OS, duh.
20:23:13 <lament> the screenshots i've seen of them looked quite horrendous
20:23:26 <ehird> they weren't _pretty_, this was the 80s
20:23:33 <ehird> but they were efficient, usable and highly reflective
20:23:59 <lament> efficient, usable, highly reflective - pick any two
20:24:11 <ehird> on "modern" slum computers, sure. :)
20:24:39 <lament> the reason modern computers suck is not because they don't run lisp on bare metal
20:25:01 <ehird> the point is that you need hooks to allow the high-level features
20:25:05 <ehird> and modern machines, well, don't.
20:25:13 <ehird> so we get to use C! Joy!
20:29:40 <oerjan> some people also use Joy, C?
20:30:32 <ehird> mmph I wonder how to center the emacs frame
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20:38:33 <ehird> this should be trivial
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20:42:44 <ehird> ais523: do you know how/
20:42:53 <ais523> in what window manager?
20:43:03 <ehird> you can set window positions generically in emacs
20:43:09 <ehird> I've just forgotten how to get the frame's height in pixels
20:43:16 <ais523> I'm not sure what the elisp command for that is
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20:43:28 <ais523> it's not the sort of thing that programs generally mess with, so I've never had to look it up
20:43:39 <oklopol> is there a shorter noun for "need to pee"?
20:43:56 <ais523> as far as I know, no to both, though
20:44:18 <oklopol> GregorR: i was wrong, it seems computers using vista can shut down due to hardware failures as well.
20:45:21 <oklopol> ais523: referring to a conversation GregorR probably doesn't even remember anymore.
20:45:51 <oklopol> ehird: is that a joke, or something urbandictionary just hasn't learned yet?
20:46:10 <ehird> oklopol: I invented it. go use it
20:46:16 <oklopol> ais523: well by noun i meant noun, but adjective works too.
20:46:23 <ehird> ais523: what does [[[...]]] around the modeline mean?
20:46:32 <ais523> it means you're in a triply recursive edit
20:46:41 <ais523> you can go back to editing in the middle of certain commands
20:46:49 <ais523> and then pop the edit back to the command when you're done
20:47:04 <ais523> useful in the middle of a long find/replace operation when you notice something else that needs fixing, for instance
20:47:22 <ehird> how can I exit the recedits?
20:47:41 <ais523> I can't remember offhand, maybe C-M-c
20:47:51 <ehird> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Cannot return from the debugger in an error")
20:47:55 <ais523> I know ESC ESC ESC exits a recedit
20:48:03 <ehird> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Cannot return from the debugger in an error")
20:48:12 <ais523> without resuming the command that started the recedit
20:50:36 <ehird> aaaaaargh I forgot how to center :<
20:50:50 <ehird> it's not -(/sh 2)fh
20:50:53 <ehird> (s=screen,f=frame)
20:50:59 * ehird 's brain is off today
20:51:08 <ehird> okay ehird let's think logically :|
20:51:20 <ehird> i wish you hadn't done that
20:51:28 <lament> you're not smart enough for lisp.
20:54:22 <ehird> okay, emacs environment all set up. umm, what was I going to write again?
20:54:52 <ehird> oh look, SBCL's running with 2GB virtual memory. so it definitely does the overcommitting trick
20:55:00 <ehird> ... wtf it's 32-bit :<
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21:47:17 <oklopol> okokokokokokookokokokokokoo
21:47:26 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokookokokokokokoko
21:47:46 <ais523> oklopol: you should do evaluations in s-k combinator calculus
21:47:49 <ais523> but with o rather than s
21:48:35 <oklopol> how would you indicate el structure?
21:48:51 <ais523> with o for * and k for
21:49:14 <oklopol> except you can't start or end with a k or have two adjacent k's
21:49:21 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokookokookoko
21:49:50 <oklopol> why did i start okoing anyway
21:49:55 <ehird> have oko be binary numbers
21:49:57 <ehird> of a godel encoding
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22:41:25 <ehird> man, the sbcl documentation si refreshing
22:41:40 <ehird> it's comprehensive and informal and it has tons of places where it says, oh yeah, this sucks, or oh this is a bug
22:50:14 <ehird> heh #lisp are talking about lispms
22:57:59 <ehird> I'm downloading a lisp machine environment and emulator!
23:06:07 <Slereah_> What's lisp machine code, anyway?
23:06:14 <Slereah_> What are the differences with regular lisp?
23:06:49 <ehird> Slereah_: well, it's not lisp
23:06:56 <ehird> imagine x86 machine code, and imagine C
23:07:00 <ehird> -> lisp machine code / lisp
23:07:07 <ehird> lisp compiles down to llisp machine code
23:09:44 <Slereah_> Yes, but like, what are the basic functions?
23:10:03 <Slereah_> I hope it's at least RISC, 'cause otherwise, the answer could be long!
23:12:00 <ehird> Slereah_: you'd have to buy the manual to know exactly, probably
23:12:08 <ehird> also, there are multiple lisp machines
23:12:16 <ehird> from difffferent companies
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23:13:07 <Slereah_> Is it something like theorical lisp + lambda + io or something?
23:13:19 <ehird> Slereah_: it's imperative
23:13:29 <ehird> it just has special things for bignums, dispatching, functions, gc
23:13:35 <ehird> Slereah_: umm, lisp is imperative
23:13:53 <Slereah_> I mean, it's not purely functional, but still.
23:13:53 <ehird> Scheme is functional, but lisp is imperative
23:13:59 <ehird> it has first-class functions
23:14:01 <ehird> that doesn't make it functional
23:14:24 <Slereah_> I just assume it's somehow similar to scheme
23:14:33 <ais523> lisp is imperative, but sufficiently functionallish that you can do functional programming in it in a pinch
23:16:30 <ehird> ais523: Slereah_: http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/frontpage.html
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23:16:46 <ehird> mostly a lisp manual, it seems
23:17:03 <ehird> has assembly stuff
23:17:11 -!- yourwiki-tech has changed nick to chuck|busy.
23:17:18 <ehird> The first instruction here is a CAR instruction. It has the same format as MOVE: there is a destination and an address. The CAR instruction reads the datum addressed by the address, takes the car of it, and stores the result into the destination. In our example, the first instruction addresses the zeroth argument, and so it computes (car y); then it pushes the result onto the stack.
23:17:27 <ehird> Contents of address registeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
23:21:05 <ehird> ais523: how much does a working vhdl/verilog environment cost?
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23:21:20 <ais523> ehird: GHDL you can get for free, but it's just a simulator
23:21:32 <ehird> does it support everything I'd use?
23:21:37 <ehird> also, what else would I need but a simulator...?
23:22:02 <ais523> I use gtkwave to view simulation output, though
23:22:06 <ais523> and I know how much you hate gtk
23:22:15 <ehird> ok, so ... free, is the answer?
23:22:18 <ehird> what other tools would I need?
23:22:30 <ais523> you need it, gcc I think, and something to view the output
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23:22:41 <ais523> if you're just doing things with assertions and print statements, you need nothing else
23:22:57 <ais523> if you want to view the internal signals, which is useful when debugging, you need some program to actually show the simulation output
23:23:02 <ais523> and gtkwave's the only one I know of
23:23:31 <ais523> oh, ghdl's slightly buggy in that it sometimes accepts broken code, but you probably don't care about that
23:23:31 <ehird> i thought you said these tools were all highly expensive
23:23:38 <ais523> ehird: the synthesizers, yes
23:23:45 <ehird> oh, write to FPGA?
23:23:56 <ehird> FPGAs are only used for hobbies right?
23:24:00 <ais523> they all rely on the internal details of the chips, you see, which the manufacturers won't release
23:24:03 <ehird> as in no real-world chips us ethem
23:24:04 <ais523> and no, they're used for serious things too
23:24:13 <ais523> no real-world chips use them for the final product
23:24:20 <ais523> but things like Pentiums are simulated on them
23:25:11 <ehird> how fast can fpgas go?
23:25:22 <ais523> insanely fast, some of them
23:25:34 <ais523> even in my student project at University, I was measuring time in nanoseconds
23:26:27 <ehird> ais523: and these synths + the fpga chips cost..
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23:26:49 <ais523> I think you can get one of the evaluation packs they market for hobbyists for not a ridiculous amount, although the synth is rather rubbish
23:27:07 <ehird> define not ridiculous
23:28:21 <ais523> $189 for an evaluation board and evaluation software for the bottom-of-the range version
23:28:52 <ehird> ais523: bottom range = crap, I assume
23:29:08 <ais523> the better evaluation boards, with the same software, cost hundreds to thousands of dollars
23:29:13 <ais523> and the better software is price on request
23:29:24 <ehird> yeah I think I'll stick to simulators
23:30:13 <ehird> i wonder how symbolics EVER made a profit
23:30:53 <ais523> you may want to look at opencores.org by the way
23:31:08 <ais523> for example VHDL/Verilog code
23:31:39 <ais523> most of the VHDL/Verilog code you can buy costs a fortune and requires an NDA before you can touch it, opencores.org is free
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23:35:02 <ais523> ehird: by the way, GHDL is what happened when someone modified gcc to make it process VHDL rather than C
23:35:09 <ais523> it generates executables that run the simulations
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14:20:16 <ais523> yesterday, I saw something pretty surprising
14:20:22 <ais523> which was an entirely new failure mode for the Door
14:20:35 <ais523> that particular Door is a double door, which swings open
14:20:39 <ais523> one of the halves of it was shut
14:20:52 <ais523> and the other half was open, waving about back and forth between about 90 and 70 degrees open
14:20:58 <ehird> this door is awesome
14:21:26 <ehird> seems like it to m
14:22:18 <ais523> which is worrying, because normally with doors it's obvious
14:28:04 <ais523> meanwhile, I'm wondering why the build-dependencies for VirtualBox include a K&R C compiler
14:28:20 <ehird> because it uses k&r c in parts?
14:28:23 <ehird> prseumably legacy code
14:28:38 <ais523> but back in the days of K&R C, people hadn't even thought of virtualisation
14:29:32 <ehird> how do you exit an error in emacs?
14:29:39 <ehird> ais523: it'll be auxillary code
14:29:42 <ehird> not directly related
14:30:09 <ais523> ehird: emacs errors normally exit automatically
14:30:27 <ehird> that trigger the debugger
14:30:35 <ais523> hmm... I don't remember offhand
14:30:45 <ais523> but try C-], C-M-c, and ESC ESC ESC
14:30:51 <ais523> those are good at exiting all sorts of things
14:31:05 <ais523> in particular, ESC ESC ESC is a generic exit-anything code
14:31:12 <ais523> where it works out dwimness to figure out what you want to exit
14:31:15 <ehird> ESC ESC ESC: Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Cannot return from the debugger in an error")
14:31:18 <ais523> and it's easy to remember
14:31:47 <ais523> aha, it's trying to return just one layer
14:31:51 <ais523> whereas you need to return 2, somehow, to skip over the layer that's erroring
14:33:01 <ehird> c-] does one-layer
14:34:39 <ehird> er, doesn't c-3 just repeat 3 times
14:34:53 <ais523> it applies threeness to the following command
14:35:00 <ais523> most commands interpret that as a repeat, but some don't
14:35:37 <ais523> for instance, C-3 M-g M-g jumps to line 3
14:35:55 <ehird> I just did c-] c] c-]
14:36:06 <ehird> ais523: who says lisp has to have parens? http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3194/picture2xv0.png
14:36:10 <ehird> (warning: may cause convulsions)
14:36:50 <ehird> the best part is th at it's understandable
14:36:54 <ehird> lispers really do read the indentation
14:37:04 <ais523> it's a cross between Lisp and Python!
14:38:22 <ehird> interestingly, the only thing making emacs feel klunky now is the scrollbar behaviour
14:38:28 <ehird> it CHANGES SIZE depending on where you are
14:38:39 <ehird> and throws an error if you scroll past the top or bottom...
14:38:51 <ehird> and the scrolling is jerky
14:38:54 <ehird> wonder how I can fix that
14:39:48 <ais523> ehird: it's fixed in the GTK version of Emacs, I think
14:39:58 <ais523> not the jerkiness of the scrolling, but the size of the thumb thing
14:40:01 <ehird> dirty gtk buggers. always getting the good features.
14:40:09 <ehird> I guess I'll complain to emacs, and get told to get used to it
14:40:13 <ais523> because they just used gtk scrollbars
14:40:26 <ais523> presumably the scrolling is jerky because emacs can't render half a line at the top of the screen
14:40:32 <ehird> they use Carbon scrollbars on OS X, it's just that they do the handling themselves
14:40:44 <ehird> whyyy can't they just use a native control _occasionally_
14:40:56 <ehird> the freaking scrollbar behaviour doesn't have to be 100% identical over every damn system!
14:41:12 <ais523> emacs is designed for the console, pretty clearly
14:41:26 <ais523> it doesn't really like being in a graphical interface
14:41:34 <ehird> It's getting better
14:41:38 <ais523> btw, does gvim do smooth scrolling?
14:41:40 <ehird> but it did start life in the console, yes
14:41:49 <ehird> btw, it's not smooth scrolling
14:41:52 <ehird> smooth scrolling is a scourge
14:41:53 <ais523> ehird: remember that for ages, Stallman refused to allow backspace to delete backwards in Emacs
14:41:58 <ehird> (it's just useless eyecandy on scrolls)
14:42:01 <ehird> what's needed is more precise scrolling
14:42:09 <ehird> OS X doesn't do smooth scrolling, but scrolling goes smoothly anyway
14:42:19 <ehird> because a scroll just moves a little, and the scrollwheel is very sensitive
14:42:29 <ehird> [14:41:53] <ais523> ehird: remember that for ages, Stallman refused to allow backspace to delete backwards in Emacs
14:42:39 <ais523> ehird: because it couldn't be distinguished from control-h
14:42:49 <ehird> can't believe they didn't sack that guy earlier.
14:43:04 <ais523> the FAQ back then had an entry for people who wanted backspace to delete backwards, rather than delete
14:43:21 <ais523> the entry suggested changing your login script (the equivalent of bashrc) to map delete-backwards to delete not backspace
14:43:36 <ais523> I tried to find it recently, but couldn't
14:43:41 <ehird> secret to emacs not being a sore thumb #32: (setq ring-bell-function (lambda ()))
14:43:51 <ehird> emacs has not _once_ beeped usefully for me
14:44:03 <ehird> either it's popped up a message in an emacs-window to tell me about something important,
14:44:08 <ehird> or it's just bothering me about stupid stuff in the minibuffer
14:44:23 <ehird> like, YOU SCROLLED PAST THE TOP OF THE DOCUMENT. LET ME RAPE YOUR EARS WITH MY BEEP/
14:44:24 <ais523> ehird: heh, I've set visible-bell on my emacs
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14:44:39 <ehird> YOU SCROLLED PAST THE TOP OF THE DOCUMENT. LET ME TRIGGER YOUR EPILEPSY
14:44:50 <ais523> I have visible-bell everywhere I can on this system, the beep on this laptop is really annoying
14:45:04 <ais523> also, emacs' visible bell is pretty unobtrusive, although noticeable
14:45:07 <ehird> emacs beeps using the os x system beep, except if you keep scrolling up it retriggers it for every single scroll
14:45:16 <ehird> so it's an audial mudbath of hate
14:46:04 <ehird> also, I just realised that emacs can only display full lines, you're right
14:46:08 <ais523> oh by the way, for historical reasons, in order to scroll to a particular location using the scrollbar in traditional Emacs scrolling, you have to scroll with the middle mouse button
14:46:23 <ehird> emacs proposal: (setq modern t)
14:46:32 <ehird> makes emacs not be hopelessly 70s.
14:46:35 <ais523> I think that's fixed in pretty much every port but the tty version to work as expected on the system, though
14:46:45 <ehird> • rgr_ didnt even know emacs had scroll bars ...
14:47:10 <ehird> do you think he's trying to be all 1337 by saying he doesn't need scrollbars, or d'you think he's just blind? :P
14:47:59 <ais523> emacs -nw doesn't have scrollbars
14:48:05 <ais523> and that's the common version to use over ssh or whatever
14:48:14 <ehird> I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice. emacs can't get scrollbars right Emacs? Hah! I would appreciate it if you would continue.
14:48:21 <ehird> Even the psychotherapist hates emacs.
14:51:43 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7yi1m/while_1_if_1_1_printfcosmic_ray_detectedn/c07rfy6
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15:07:38 <ehird> http://www.dragonflybsd.org/release22/
15:14:07 <ehird> ais523: can you try and explain to me why people use things like gnus
15:14:38 <ais523> ehird: no, I tried to use gnus and didn't understand it either
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15:14:57 <ehird> i get that emacs kind of morphs into a ui
15:15:03 <ehird> I just don't get why you would use it that way
15:15:11 <ehird> I can't think of any way in which gnus is better than another mail client
15:15:27 <ehird> emacs just makes applications suck more because it's not made with anything but editing in mind
15:17:25 <ehird> the author of gnus appears to be partially responsible for modern cd ripper/media library programs
15:17:29 <ehird> http://quimby.gnus.org/jukebox/jukebox.html
15:17:44 <ehird> "Insane? Yes." yes, how very insane :P
15:18:58 <ehird> "When I wrote the Emacs music interface ten years ago (started back in Octuber 1997, apparently), this all seemed a bit far-fetched. "Oooh. Music on a computer. Aaah." These days it's all trivial beyond beliefe. Just goes to show. I've continued fiddling with the Emacs music interface (bigger screen, remote control, last.fm interface, etc), and I doubt I'll ever succumbed to one of those new-fangled pointy-clicky interfaces. So there."
15:20:16 <ehird> Mighty Mouse Scrolling
15:20:17 <ehird> By default the scrolling with the Mighty Mouse is very jerky. The following setting feel more reasonable:
15:20:17 <ehird> (setq mouse-wheel-scroll-amount '(0.01))
15:20:45 <ehird> oh my god it works
15:20:47 <ais523> ehird: what confuses me more is that that's written with AnMaster grammar
15:21:00 <ehird> ais523: just one letter missing
15:21:09 <ais523> yes, but that's a very AnMaster grammar mistake to make
15:21:10 <ehird> a simple typo, probably, rather than broken grammar deluxe
15:21:23 <ais523> AnMaster's grammar is more or less perfect except for that sort of thing
15:21:33 <ehird> that sort of thing is rather common...
15:21:37 <ais523> "The following setting feel more reasonable:"
15:21:42 <ais523> you didn't write that, but it reminded me of you
15:22:17 <ehird> hrmph, c-h f is function docs, where are var docs
15:22:36 <ais523> that has functions and commands and vars, etc
15:23:18 <ehird> btw, emacs uses utf-8 by default right?
15:23:31 <AnMaster> ais523, also the reasons I make that sort of typos are primarily 1) cold fingers 2) The S-key for some reason has higher friction on this old (cheap) keyboard
15:23:45 <ehird> god, you live in freaking sweden
15:23:51 <ehird> surely you guys have mastered not being cold?!
15:24:01 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, that is why I have cold fingers... it is so cold here :/
15:24:17 <ehird> agh why does scrolling in emacs move the point
15:24:18 <AnMaster> even indoors it tend to be quite cold
15:24:26 <ais523> ehird: because point's always onscreen
15:24:32 <ehird> Well it shouldn't be ;_;
15:24:35 <ais523> emacs is a console app, it has to put the cursor somewhere
15:24:41 <ehird> I want to look at another part of the document then go back to editing
15:24:51 <ehird> yes, I know I can push the point
15:25:06 <ais523> or I often use the mark for that
15:25:17 <ais523> put the mark where I want to look at, and point where I'm editing
15:26:21 <ehird> mouse-wheel-progressive-speed is a variable defined in `mwheel.el'. Its value is t
15:26:25 <ehird> see, THIS is the stupidity
15:26:48 <ehird> I like being more precise, plus other apps don't do that.
15:26:50 <ais523> incidentally, I used to use an older version of emacs without mouse-scroll capability, and implemented it myself
15:27:14 <ais523> the progressive-speed thing was one big improvement of the actual emacs version over my home-brew
15:27:21 <ehird> well, admittedly other apps do do something similar
15:27:27 <ehird> but the effect is far less
15:27:29 <ais523> you just scroll close to where you're aiming, wait a bit for the timer to reset, and scroll accurately
15:27:31 <ehird> so it's closer when it's off
15:27:41 <ehird> ais523: or I could just scroll to where I want
15:29:28 <ehird> (setq mouse-wheel-scroll-amount '(0.05)) (setq mouse-wheel-progressive-speed nil)
15:29:46 <ehird> I know it's perfect because I compared it with a native app :P
15:34:24 <ehird> oh, people still print things
15:34:58 <ais523> even I do sometimes, to hand coursework in
15:35:10 <ais523> or to make physical objects for playing games with
15:35:15 <ehird> yeah, it's still rather surprising though
15:35:22 <ehird> i'm justlike, oh, wow
15:36:39 <ais523> slightly more dramatic is that I'm gradually forgetting how to write
15:36:44 <ais523> I still write for exams and to fill in forms
15:36:49 <ais523> but for nearly everything else I type
15:36:57 <ehird> My handwriting looks similar to that of a 7 year olds.
15:38:09 <ehird> common lisp is great
15:38:24 <ehird> it might not be as elegant as scheme but it's still lisp, and SBCL is a great compiler
15:38:38 <ehird> really fast and the error messsages are awesome (I'm saying this because it just gave me a really helpful one)
15:38:45 <ais523> #esoteric would probably invent uncommon lisp
15:43:26 <ehird> heh, M-x has been replaced by C-h w quite a lot for me
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16:02:43 <ehird> [16:02:22] <gour> i'd like to use emacs (amongst other things) as desktop-publishing platform to post blog entries (possibly in reST markup via metaweblog (atom) to (django-powered) blog sites...any idea how to do it?
16:03:44 <ehird> no, just very crazy
16:04:18 <ehird> on its own, those technologies are rather mundane; such a comprehensive stack reminds me of Aristotle Pagaltzis and Tim Bray except even crazier
16:05:33 <ehird> holy crap, some code I stole has been stolen :-D
16:05:36 <ehird> I know because of the comment.
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16:07:38 <ehird> (it's been stolen into a semi-popular thang)
16:08:01 <ehird> this paste: http://pastie.textmate.org/pastes/30372, note the author and the comment,
16:08:05 <ehird> http://github.com/mojombo/jekyll/blob/d0f46c2120852d826937a97d3241088d8dfce43d/lib/jekyll/core_ext.rb
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16:18:12 * ehird drafts up lisp machine instruction set
16:36:25 <MizardX> MAKELIST, APPEND, APPLY, LITERAL x :)
16:37:07 <ehird> hf implementing that in a cpu and doing useful ops :D
16:38:00 <MizardX> would need a few more stack operators...
16:38:14 <ehird> that's not even a good basis for a lisp machine
16:39:18 -!- ehird has set topic: Note that write is not the opposite of "read". Unfortunately. http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
16:39:23 <ehird> first topic change in 70 years
16:39:34 -!- ehird has set topic: Note that write is _not_ the opposite of "read". Unfortunately. http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
16:39:46 <MizardX> been a while since I last toughed lisp...
16:42:14 <ehird> lambda should be renamed to fun
16:42:16 <ehird> 1. lambdas are fun
16:42:25 <ehird> 3. lambdas are fun
16:43:56 <ehird> CL-USER> (+ (values 1 2 3)) 1
16:56:38 * ehird has emacs set up nicely for lisp now
16:56:47 <ehird> whenever I open a lisp file, a SLIME connection to my sbcl opens below
17:00:19 <ehird> slime highlighted my division by zero in a function
17:00:22 <ehird> when c onstant folding
17:05:53 <oklopol> MizardX: are you sure you don't want cXr?
17:07:12 <oklopol> ehird: oh i assumed append was noobglish for cons
17:07:16 <ehird> MizardX: car, cdr, etc
17:07:19 <ehird> oklopol: it probably was.
17:07:40 <oklopol> well may not have been since there's makelist
17:07:48 <oklopol> isn't makelist+append kinda cons
17:08:18 <oklopol> (i mean loosely isomorphing)
17:09:20 <MizardX> been a long while since I last touched lisp, so I didn't concider all aspects
17:10:00 <oklopol> *cons-ider, you have like a cons-allergy or something?
17:10:33 <MizardX> makelist+append -> cons+car+cdr would be better
17:12:45 <ehird> CL-USER> (introduct '(((s k) s) k)) ((((^ X (^ Y (^ Z ((X Z) (Y Z))))) (^ X (^ Y X))) (^ X (^ Y (^ Z ((X Z) (Y Z)))))) (^ X (^ Y X)))
17:12:49 <ehird> Humble beginnings.
17:27:26 <ehird> ais523: MizardX: oklopol: others: i just found an old esolang of mine :D I like it http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CRTL
17:27:43 <ehird> ("say hello"->x)->("Hello, "~x~"!");
17:27:43 <ehird> "say hello"->"thingymabob"
17:27:48 <ehird> prints hello world
17:28:20 <ehird> actually that could break
17:28:23 <ehird> the last could rewrite the first
17:29:39 <ehird> (("fib"->a)->b)->b~"|"~a~b;
17:29:39 <ehird> a~"|"~b->(("fib"->a)->b);
17:29:47 <ehird> oklopol: that's one fine fib you wrote there
17:30:10 <ais523> ehird: do you have an interp?
17:30:22 <ehird> nope. I could write one
17:30:28 <ais523> and is it TC? I suspect yes, for the same reason as Thue
17:30:50 <ehird> oklopol's fib doesn't output a newline
17:31:51 <ehird> a~"|"~b->(("fib"->a)->b);
17:31:56 <ehird> would be nicer with \n, of course :P
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17:57:02 <oklopol> i looked at CRTL quite recently on a random esotrip.
17:58:03 <oklopol> at least it looks very nice. i didn't give it that much thought :)
17:58:16 <oklopol> esotrips are more about clicking the random button than actually reading the pages.
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18:05:25 <ehird> 14:56:11 <oklopol> GregorR: sometimes i want to say two things at once to make the first one impossible to comment on
18:05:25 <ehird> 14:56:23 <oklopol> but indeeed
18:05:25 <ehird> 14:56:32 <oklopol> it sometimes looks wronglied.
18:05:29 <ehird> oklopol is hilarious
18:05:46 <ehird> oklopol: surelyurely you know it because you wrote the fibbb
18:06:02 <ehird> oh man oklopol you used to be a noob
18:06:05 <ehird> 06.12.06:00:39:12 <oklopol> has anyone done quicksort in brainfuck?
18:06:05 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:03:51 <oklopol> :DD
18:06:05 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:24:47 <oklopol> true, but i've been making this string parser as a wimpmode for it, stacks are as easy to use with it as in ... languages they are easy to use :D
18:06:05 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:29:59 <oklopol> eh... bad idea you say? :D
18:06:12 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:31:35 <oklopol> well, equally fun, stupid or not :)
18:06:16 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:31:54 <oklopol> yes, this is prolly the last thing i do with it :)
18:06:17 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:32:38 <oklopol> never done intercal :\
18:06:17 <ehird> 06.12.06:01:32:52 <oklopol> maybe today
18:06:40 <oklopol> ehird: i know it, but i don't remember the details.
18:07:01 <oklopol> "true, but i've been making this string parser as a wimpmode for it, stacks are as easy to use with it as in ... languages they are easy to use :D" i cannot parse this
18:07:06 <oklopol> what does this retard mean?
18:07:21 <ehird> you were making a wimpmode for brainfuck
18:07:32 <ehird> man you were a failure
18:09:04 <oklopol> i've made a wimpmode in my later years too
18:09:11 <oklopol> although it was considerably more interesting
18:09:17 <ehird> <GregorR> oklopol: That's a totally retarded idea CATS ARE FLUFFY
18:09:34 <ehird> 14:56:58 <oklopol> rice: awesome puppy
18:09:34 <ehird> 14:57:00 <oklopol> book
18:09:44 <ehird> 14:57:33 <oklopol> (i actually wrote 'puppy' instead of 'book', although i have to admit i realized it a bit before i pressed return, but had to say it anyway)
18:09:56 <oklopol> that c++ project i was describing there was very much like err... pebble
18:11:15 <oklopol> anyway it was just stuff you can directly compile to brainfuck context-insensitively
18:12:23 <oklopol> although i did get considerably more stuff done ofc
18:13:19 <oklopol> <oklopol> rice: awesome puppy <<< okay awesome book, nice correction, but "rice"?
18:14:00 <ehird> it made no sense in context either btw
18:14:26 <oklopol> and right it's your nick, thought that was at GregorR
18:14:42 <ehird> it was completely out of context
18:16:06 <oklopol> i often read #esoteric logs and just laugh at my own jokes
18:16:27 <ehird> i often read #esoteric logs and just laugh at oklopol's jokes
18:16:33 <ehird> because I secretly want to marry him
18:16:45 <oklopol> yeah, marrying me would be so awesome
18:16:56 <ehird> if you love yourself so much WHY DON'T YOU GO MARRY YOURSELF
18:17:14 <oklopol> that was so outta blue :DDDDDDDDDDDDD
18:20:11 <ehird> so oklopol is gay marriage legal in finlander
18:21:11 <oklopol> i think we have that registered couple thing or something.
18:22:17 <oklopol> like legal benefits, but different term
18:22:25 <oklopol> but fizzie might know better
18:22:55 <oklopol> i don't exactly follow this stuff, the whole marriage thing never interested me.
18:23:09 <oklopol> i mean for any kind of sexualities
18:23:22 <oklopol> except for marrying ridiculous stuff
18:24:03 <ehird> oklopol, I'm a chair
18:25:44 <oklopol> i think i've heard something about the president being the one who grants the right for ppl under 15 to get married
18:25:57 <oklopol> that would pretty much be her only duty
18:28:44 <oklopol> my acronyms and interrogative pronouns exactly
18:29:26 <ehird> oklopol: you know how you keep searching for the semantics of computation itself
18:29:31 <ehird> oklopol: search for the data structure of computation itself.
18:29:35 <ehird> that would be like 10x cooler.
18:29:50 <ehird> ofc, computation is just the operation that naturally flows from the data structure of computation.
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18:31:55 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p632626363.txt
18:31:57 <ehird> do you have an interp
18:32:31 <ehird> give give give omg
18:32:44 <oklopol> but but i don't know where it is atm
18:33:27 <oklopol> i have tons to do, and i'm going to start doing it right after i've taken this crap i'm taking atm
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19:41:08 <impomatic> Anything interesting new this week? :-)
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20:43:07 <oerjan> <ehird> lambda should be renamed to fun
20:44:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_function
20:47:08 <oerjan> hm, that's actually the only example on that page
20:54:11 <oerjan> <ehird> oklopol, I'm a chair
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22:55:39 <ehird> [20:43:17] <oerjan> it is in ML
22:58:05 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ino_(Greek_mythology)
22:58:25 <oerjan> that template really needs to be moved...
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23:25:11 <ehird> "You're wife just doesn't get it. She's what we called normies (just a joke ha ha)"
23:25:17 <ehird> if only you had a brain.
23:29:47 <oerjan> you could wile away the hours.
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23:35:27 <ehird> oerjan: http://www.cjohansen.no/en/browsers/norway_tells_ie6_users_to_shape_up
23:36:03 <ehird> can I move to norway
23:37:24 <oerjan> norway is for most purposes in the common market
23:37:26 <ehird> oerjan I'll look after your swatter :-|
23:41:45 <oerjan> actually there are restrictions on how much you can work at your age, i'm sure.
23:41:57 <ehird> I'll just work on the swatter a little. For a very modest fee
23:43:18 <oerjan> there's a _lot_ of bureaucracy to hire people here though. or so i've heard.
23:44:09 <oerjan> although i'm not sure if it's worse or better than the UK
23:51:26 <ehird> 09:11:33 <ehird`> TINEBT (This is not Emacs, but TINEBT)
23:51:55 <ehird> <ehird`> XINEBACEOX is not Emacs, but a copy of the expansion of X
23:52:59 <oerjan> FINGER is not genuine Emacs really
23:53:47 <oerjan> So SWINE is not Emacs?
23:54:32 <ehird> 09:23:17 <oerjan> CITRORI - CITRORI is the result of running itself
23:55:34 <ehird> THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHT
23:56:45 <oerjan> TIARA is a recursive acronym, iirc
23:57:14 <ehird> This haughty infidel says: "a cross only - never you must stray to a roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITH!'"
23:57:23 <ehird> This haughty infidel says: "a cross only - never you must stray to a roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHAT!'"
23:57:58 <oerjan> some bad corners in there
23:58:15 <oerjan> the first R and the last A
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23:58:41 <ehird> oerjan: excuse me?
23:58:59 <ehird> it's actually thisaconymstartswitht
23:59:42 <ehird> This haughty infidel says a cross revealed "O, never you must stray to a
23:59:42 <ehird> roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy ass! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHAT!'"
00:10:45 <ehird> POOP ovulates over POOP
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00:35:15 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/LISP_machine.jpg so pretty the logo is just <33
00:36:00 <Slereah> Except some idiot put a big piece of tape on it!
00:36:16 <Slereah> "I must hide that dong I drew on the Lisp machine!"
00:37:26 <GreaseMonkey> knowing MIT, there probably *was* a dong there
00:38:09 <ehird> even dongs cannot decrease a lisp machine's amazingosity
00:38:41 <Slereah> What if I covered it in dongs?
00:39:20 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_%C4%91%E1%BB%93ng
00:39:58 <lament> 8===========(lambda (x) (x x))
00:40:18 <Slereah> Although really, the dong is worthless, IIT
00:40:56 <oerjan> second lowest valued currency
00:41:48 <oerjan> although not so unstable, at least before the crisis
00:41:55 <lament> vietnam is a fascinating place
00:42:01 <lament> i went to a Pho, and got mild food poisoning
00:42:26 <oerjan> hm zimbabwe dollar moved down, used to be first
00:42:37 <ehird> the dong has bad inflation
00:43:33 <oerjan> yeah but nothing like the ZWD
00:43:45 <Slereah> Shush oerjan, you ruined the joke
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00:48:14 <ehird> 13:45:02 <ehird`> bah why are revision controlsystems always mutable?
00:48:14 <ehird> 13:45:04 <ehird`> :(
00:48:14 <ehird> 13:45:09 <ehird`> filesystems should never modify data!
00:48:14 <ehird> 13:47:53 <ehird`> oh well, MINE will be an immutable, garbage-collected filesystem database! :D
00:48:17 <ehird> fuck yeah, go for it ehird!
00:49:08 <olsner> well, sucks to be you, I guess
00:49:15 <ehird> 18:59:09 <adu> i'm sad
00:49:15 <ehird> 18:59:25 <adu> I just found two languages which are nearly Identical to my dream language
00:50:25 <ehird> b:4>@[n;&0n=n:+/_sqr 50{c+(-/x*x;2*/x)}/c:+,/(-1.5+2*(!w)%w),/:\:-1+2*(!w)%w:200;:;4];`mandel.pbm 6:"P4\n",(5:2#w),"\n",_ci 2_sv'-1 8#,/+(2#w)#b
00:51:22 <ehird> beat that in j oklopol :P
00:52:00 <ehird> www.kx.com/a/k/examples/bell.k <- i love the commenting style
00:52:18 <oklopol> at least now, 12/19 of my math exercises for tomorrow done
00:52:37 <oklopol> that means i will probably get to sleep for about 0 hours.
00:53:09 <ehird> http://kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k i also love this
00:55:48 <oerjan> oklopol: now just be happy you don't have 20 exercises. then you would have to sleep for negative hours.
00:55:53 <Sgeo> WTF is a cost of typing?
00:56:55 <ehird> the original j interp is fucked up
00:57:23 <Sgeo> http://www.farmingdale.edu/enewsfiles/Teresa_Flyer.pdf
01:01:08 <oerjan> they could not afford the cost of printing so they had to use typing instead. which is very slow, especially for the pictures which are really ASCII art using a very tiny typewriter font.
01:02:10 <oerjan> they save on costs for the pictures by only using tiny pygmy child laborers
01:15:02 <ehird> The sum function in LMR assembly, prototype one.
01:15:05 <ehird> add [R1], [RR], RR
01:24:26 <MizardX> what does "push [R2], RA" do?
01:24:48 <MizardX> and what does the 1 in "call sum, 1" mean?
01:24:58 <ehird> pushes the contents of the R2 register to the RA stack/register
01:25:01 <ehird> and function argument count
01:27:27 <MizardX> sum: jnil RA, end -- define label 'sum'; jump to end if RA is nil
01:27:39 <oerjan> ah. not tail recursive?
01:27:43 <ehird> MizardX: err, should be [RA]
01:27:58 <MizardX> car RA, R1 -- copy head of RA to R1
01:28:11 <ehird> cdr = pput tail, ofc
01:28:22 <ehird> push the value in R2 to RA (Register: Arguments)
01:28:26 <ehird> call sum with 1 argument
01:28:38 <ehird> add the value in R1 and the value in RR (Register: Return), putting the result in RR
01:29:02 <ehird> voila, 9-instruction list summation
01:29:55 <oerjan> <oerjan> ah. not tail recursive?
01:30:15 <ehird> you could easily make it tail recursive.
01:34:18 <oerjan> loop: jnil RA, end car RA, R1 cdr RA, RA add [R1], [RR], RR jump loop
01:34:36 <ehird> there's a tailcall instruction.
01:35:35 <oerjan> darn irssi joining lines
01:36:04 <MizardX> oerjan: exactly what I was writing... :P
01:36:43 <oerjan> oh i _wrote_ the line breaks. they just didn't show up :(
01:37:13 <MizardX> ah, I used 'jmp' instead of 'jump' :)
01:38:32 <oerjan> oh well whatever has the same effect...
01:39:15 <MizardX> should be some complement to "jnil"... maybe "jnn"?
02:07:20 <oklopol> what's your favorite homonym of "hair"?
02:10:55 * oerjan isn't actually sure there are any
02:12:29 <oerjan> oh wiktionary lists "hare"
02:29:49 <oerjan> a hary scheme if i ever saw one
02:34:33 <oerjan> excellent for fibonacci
02:37:01 <oerjan> although it contains a lot of easter eggs
02:37:41 <Slereah> oerjan : You just won an internet
02:38:20 -!- Slereah has set topic: Hare Scheme : perfect for Fibonacci | http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
02:40:02 <oerjan> although the programs tend to be long, as it's hard to avoid duplication
02:42:31 <Slereah> I think you can only do it in punch cards, though
02:43:01 <oerjan> i'm sure unicode solves that problem.
02:43:03 <Slereah> (You know, like INTERCAL's "+.)
02:43:18 <Slereah> Does Unicode have rabbits though?
02:43:24 <Slereah> Can't think of a symbol like that
02:44:03 <oerjan> there are some chinese characters for it at least
02:45:56 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-variant
02:46:36 <Slereah> That reminds me of the two unicode's K
02:46:45 <Slereah> The one for k and the one for Kelvin
02:46:55 <Slereah> They had to think hard about how to make them different
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02:47:36 <oerjan> huh? why? isn't kelvin just an ordinary capital K?
02:47:36 <Slereah_> [03:46:16] <Slereah> That reminds me of the two unicode's K
02:47:37 <Slereah_> [03:46:22] <Slereah> The one for k and the one for Kelvin
02:47:37 <Slereah_> [03:46:34] <Slereah> They had to think hard about how to make them different
02:48:04 <Slereah_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin#The_special_Unicode_kelvin_character
02:54:02 <Slereah_> Because those people are paid to do work, I assume
02:54:11 <Slereah_> So they have to find something to work about
02:55:40 <oerjan> probably due to the principle of embedding every previous character set... the article mentions CJK charsets having it
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05:38:33 <psygnisfive> the guy who does lispcast sounds like a schlump.
05:57:23 <oklopol> so, i think i'm gonna zombie it up to the unis now
05:58:04 <oklopol> maybe take a little nap when i get there
06:00:01 * Sgeo got to satisfy a 5 year old l'esprit d'escalier today
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14:07:47 <oerjan> * Sgeo got to satisfy a 5 year old l'esprit d'escalier today
14:08:08 <oklopol> before knowing what that meant, that sounded pretty perverted.
14:09:21 <oerjan> I was going to comment how that doesn't apply as much on irc, but then i noticed Sgeo had left
14:10:19 <oerjan> and then i realized that actually made it perfect...
14:10:28 <oklopol> oh it was not a pun originally?
14:10:56 <oklopol> i think we use "pun" too broadly.
14:11:39 <oerjan> well the realization happened somewhere between brain and keyboard, so yes and no
14:12:18 <oerjan> and yeah it sounded pretty perverted to me too
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15:33:48 <AnMaster> heh valgrind just told me to report a bug
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15:42:40 <ehird|away> * Sgeo got to satisfy a 5 year old l'esprit d'escalier today
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15:42:55 <ehird> Fuck this client and its away hadling
15:43:53 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'esprit_de_l'escalier argh
15:43:55 <ehird> I get that all the time
15:43:58 <ehird> my brain is too slow
15:44:05 <ehird> must... work on... cybernetic... implants...
15:44:45 <oerjan> yeah, then in the future, we can all be several microseconds late instead...
15:45:48 <oerjan> same problem, really: time would just grind to a halt as everyone reverses it constantly...
15:46:07 <ehird> it'd be concurrent time travel
15:46:10 <oerjan> possibly this has already happened, of course.
15:46:24 <ehird> time used to be a lot faster
15:51:14 <MizardX> The first few billion years...
16:08:43 <oerjan> yeah they just took six days *duck*
16:21:25 <AnMaster> memcheck: the 'impossible' happened:
16:21:47 <AnMaster> Note: see also the FAQ.txt in the source distribution.
16:21:47 <AnMaster> It contains workarounds to several common problems.
16:21:47 <AnMaster> If that doesn't help, please report this bug to: www.valgrind.org
16:21:47 <AnMaster> In the bug report, send all the above text, the valgrind
16:21:47 <AnMaster> version, and what Linux distro you are using. Thanks.
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16:33:17 <ehird> Main pr "%i",2+2); nl end NB Prints 4
16:35:18 <AnMaster> ehird, is that the whole file?
16:35:39 <ehird> No, not entirely. But the only other thing is an #include.
16:35:51 <AnMaster> ehird, what header does it include?
16:36:07 <AnMaster> one with strange defines I guess
16:36:19 <ehird> Main pr "%i",2+2); nl end NB Prints 4
16:36:25 <ehird> #define end return 0;}
16:36:27 <ehird> #define Main int main(void){
16:36:27 <ehird> #define pr printf(
16:36:29 <ehird> #define nl putchar('\n');
16:36:31 <ehird> (Yes, I know equ isn't used in it)
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16:38:01 <AnMaster> ehird, while certainly confusing if you didn't see the header, it wouldn't win IOCCC ;P
16:38:12 <AnMaster> did you write that C code btw?
16:38:25 <ehird> Yeah. I was trying to get c to look like K and similar langs
16:38:36 <ehird> didn't do too well, oh well
16:44:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you could write some array operations in preprocessor maybe?
16:45:24 <AnMaster> oh? Well I guess so using standard C, but GCC has some rather useful extensions to the preprocessor that maybe would be useful to (ab)use
16:46:20 <AnMaster> "statement expressions" was one of them (not a preprocessor feature, but makes complex macros a lot easier to write)
16:46:52 <AnMaster> and no, that wouldn't be portable :)
16:47:00 <ehird> portability is for squares
16:47:31 <AnMaster> in a case like this, you do have a point
16:49:41 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly (though I'm not sure, and haven't tested) you could avoid () by something like this:
16:50:04 <AnMaster> #define mymacro(arg) /* stuff here */
16:50:29 <ehird> you need to eliminate delimiters
16:50:39 <AnMaster> ehird, hm ok, you can include some in the macros
16:50:54 <AnMaster> #define ___mymacro(arg) /* stuff here */
16:51:17 <AnMaster> then you need to include the matching ) somewhere
16:53:33 <AnMaster> but you didn't do anything for );
16:54:08 <ehird> the unbalanced paren looked K-y
16:54:48 <AnMaster> (read: I don't know it at all, apart from seeing some K code once or twice)
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16:55:38 <AnMaster> ehird, if you really want to do this I would suggest going for m4 or such instead of cpp
16:55:54 <MizardX> In what order is #defines evaluated? If I have two defines that refer to eachother, which will be the result?
16:56:11 <ehird> MizardX: cpp will whinge at you
16:56:13 <AnMaster> MizardX, aren't they evaluated when expanded
16:56:42 <ehird> gcc's cpp just leaves the bare name in after it detects a recursion
16:58:30 <ehird> 10:16:25 <ais523> you could always try filling the computer with liquid nitrogen
16:58:30 <ehird> 10:16:35 <ais523> ISTR that method was used to set an overclocking record at one time
16:58:33 <AnMaster> hm is GNU cpp implemented as a single pass reading input and writing to output as it goes, (+ storing defines in some list or such) or does it do something more complex?
16:58:35 <ehird> should team up with a cryonics company
16:59:09 <ehird> AnMaster: read the source :P I think so though
16:59:16 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitrification
16:59:30 <ehird> It's what's used in cryopreservation, as opposed to freezing
17:02:44 <ehird> 10:50:42 <ais523> because monads cause things to happen in order
17:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird, about freezing CPUs: yes it has been used for speed records, but doing that leads to a shorter lifetime for the CPU since it is put under quite large mechanical stress. Also too low temperature will lead to worse performance.
17:04:59 <ehird> 10:17:28 <ais523> the computer still managed to overheat eventually even though the outside was frozen. They only just had enough time to take a photo of the screen showing the fast clock speed before the computer turned itself off for heat reasons
17:08:32 <ehird> explaining trivial things generally has that implication
17:22:40 <ehird> [ehird:~/Saved/2009-02/kdb] % QHOME=. rlwrap ./m32/q
17:22:40 <ehird> KDB+ 2.5 2009.02.13 Copyright (C) 1993-2009 Kx Systems
17:22:41 <ehird> m32/ 2()core 2560MB ehird bournemouth 255.255.255.255 PLAY 2009.05.14
17:22:41 <ehird> q)Y:{{x[{x[x]y}[y]]z}[x][{x[{x[x]y}[y]]z}[x]]y}
17:22:42 <ehird> {{x[{x[x]y}[y]]z}[x][{x[{x[x]y}[y]]z}[x]]y}[{{x[{x[x]y}[y]]z}[x][{x[{x[x]y}[y..
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17:42:15 <ehird> my virtual memory size of 49.85GB.
17:42:18 <ehird> This is rathter large.
17:42:44 <Slereah_> It's not the size that matters.
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17:49:26 <ehird> I JUST MMAPED 10 FUCKING TERABYTES
17:51:21 <oerjan> your very own memory bubble
17:51:39 <ehird> I mmaped 5242880 tb
17:51:50 <ehird> those allocations failed
17:51:56 <oerjan> too bad it wasn't a year or two ago, or you could surely have sold it to the banks
17:52:15 <ehird> ok I actually mmaped 320 TB
17:53:24 <oerjan> i think you should take out insurance on that memory. ask someone else to allocate the same amount, and make a contract to cover each other.
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18:07:30 <Hiato> out of interest, who is 92.48.122.144 and why did this person take the ACRONYM entry out of the hello world programmes page?
18:07:51 <ehird> an idiot, probably
18:07:55 <ehird> feel free to revert them
18:08:23 <ehird> Hiato: they replaced it with PnkHiD
18:08:26 <ehird> so merely a simple vandal
18:08:28 <ehird> or a weird spambot
18:08:37 <ehird> its because it was the first one
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18:12:04 <Hiato> not sure how to revert, so I edited =/
18:12:38 * Hiato wonders if the equates to the same thing
18:13:46 <ehird> history -> edit before the offender -> edit -> save
18:14:31 <MizardX> Except for the log message, I don't think there is any difference.
18:17:05 <Hiato> hrmm, ok, thanks (for future notice) and good to know, MizardX
18:20:09 <ehird> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?uudecode/pooq/1202119366&ijs
18:20:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:23:06 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:38:23 <ehird> [18:37:40] <cmihai> Grr, I wish there was an Emacs extention for stripping away the silly commands
18:38:50 <ehird> hahaha, I just said
18:38:50 <ehird> [18:38:35] <ehird> cmihai: careful, someone will say 'vim'
18:44:17 <ehird> 11:19:16 <ehird`> how's this for a quine and palindromic quine:
18:44:17 <ehird> 11:19:44 <ehird`> puts"aa";File.open("test.rb"){|x|x.puts"aa"}
18:48:06 <ehird> 11:52:06 <lament> i'm trying to decide on the order in which i ban you all.
18:48:06 <ehird> 11:52:13 <lament> and the kick messages
19:12:05 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:12:34 * ehird downloads tic-tac-toe playing BMP
19:14:16 <Sgeo> WHere was that located again?
19:14:21 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/tesmth/OANDX.BMP
19:14:34 <Sgeo> Also, some virus deleted my svchost.exe, so I found another copy on here and am using that
19:14:45 <Sgeo> The computer feels faster, but I think Daemon Tools doesn't like it
19:15:46 <ehird> it is so amaaaazing
19:18:02 <Sgeo> It.. doesn't take wins
19:20:20 <ehird> Sgeo: sure it does
19:20:52 <ehird> Sgeo: (0,0), (0,2), (2,2)
19:22:07 <Sgeo> What I meant is that it doesn't always make a winning move when it becomes available
19:24:39 <ehird> Sgeo: http://filebin.ca/dkuvr/THISISNTCHEATING.bmp
19:26:11 <ehird> Sgeo: how is it cheating
19:26:51 <Sgeo> First, I can't replicate it. Even if I didn't try replicating it, there should be 4 X's somewhere there
19:27:02 <ehird> yeah he wiped out the computer's move
19:48:49 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
20:14:43 <ehird> 05:43:57 <Asztal> I knew I'd seen ehird somewhere before
20:15:28 <ehird> 07:34:08 <Asztal> ehird: have you visited hoodwink'd before? this explains why I recognised your name.
20:16:43 <ehird> http://hoodwink.d/
20:17:35 <Sgeo> WHY does it require changing the hosts file?
20:18:06 <ehird> If you have to ask that, you won't get it. Don't bothe.
20:18:09 <ehird> It's broken anyway.
20:18:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Excess Flood).
20:19:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:22:24 <ehird> in fact, it now displays viagra advertisments.
20:45:15 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:54:01 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:56:53 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away.
21:03:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:06:22 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird.
21:11:06 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:13:00 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:13:42 <oerjan> <Hiato> not sure how to revert, so I edited =/
21:13:58 <oerjan> this is obviously l'esprit d'escalier day
21:14:21 <Sgeo> You saw what I said a while ago?
21:14:41 <oerjan> then, ehird did the same
21:14:59 <oerjan> although my point is that now i want to comment on Hiato too, and he is gone
21:15:54 <oerjan> anyway, a simpler way to remove spam, assuming you are reading through recent changes: click the diff link, then the undo link in the diff, then save
21:16:05 <oerjan> that also gives a nice summary message
21:16:21 <oerjan> *diff link for the spam
21:16:46 <oerjan> you can do that through history too, iirc
21:17:26 <oerjan> oh and oklopol commented too
21:19:46 <oerjan> <ehird> 11:52:06 <lament> i'm trying to decide on the order in which i ban you all.
21:20:21 <oerjan> i suggest ordered by first letter of real name, according to the english alphabet ordering
21:21:08 <FireFly> And if ones real name is unknown?
21:21:28 <oerjan> i guess we'll have to go by nick then
21:22:20 * oerjan goes into a backwards travelling time machine, then swats FireFly -----###
21:24:11 <FireFly> ...creating a time paradox, since the same is writing this message now, after the above event has taken place?'
21:35:58 <oerjan> i never said you were travelling backwards
21:38:19 * Sgeo renames some dangerous stuff by putting ".evil" at the end
21:38:23 <Sgeo> Is that a good idea?
21:38:51 <Asztal> hoodwink.d was fun while it lasted :(
21:39:03 <oerjan> well, don't put it on the web where google can find it
21:39:04 <Sgeo> And it's too dead for me to get to now?
21:39:31 <oerjan> or else some evil overlord might find it and use it
21:40:36 <oerjan> what is hoodwink.d apart from on a nonexistent tld?
21:46:22 <Sgeo> Does hoodwink.d even work anymore?
21:47:57 <Asztal> the source code's still available, I guess
21:48:21 <Asztal> it was a system for commenting on other people's websites secretly
21:54:05 <Sgeo> Secretly as in, not many people knew about it?
21:54:34 <oklopol> when you sleep for 73 hours
21:54:55 <oklopol> even though they didn't while you slept
21:56:52 <oklopol> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'esprit_de_l'escalier argh <<< i often have this in reverse, after a conversation i'm like "wow how did i come up with something that clever".
22:01:11 <oerjan> that would be Reilacseled Tirpsel, which is Frisian for "relaxed flow of wit"
22:04:03 <oklopol> i have a lot of brain gears, which i cannot control voluntarily (yet)
22:05:12 -!- k2 has joined.
22:06:07 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:06:09 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga.
22:07:04 <oerjan> beware of brain gears, even when bearing grains
22:08:41 <oklopol> oerjan: are you using a beginner's edition of the pun handbook, or what happened there?
22:09:29 <oerjan> it was a relaxed pun flow.
22:09:49 <oerjan> those are made from punicles, so don't have to make sense
23:02:14 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird|away.
23:03:22 <ehird|away> [23:01:49] <Asztal> [21:38:51] hoodwink.d was fun while it lasted :(
23:03:28 <ehird|away> stupid why and his stupid doing other things.
23:03:35 -!- ehird|away has changed nick to ehird.
23:03:39 <ehird> stupid fucking client
23:13:32 <Sgeo> Why are you spontaneously saying "Hi"? j/k
23:13:59 <Sgeo> I'm guessing you're not going to buy it?
23:23:33 <Sgeo> I looked the client up, and apparently a 15-day trial is offered
23:27:49 <ehird> I has a pirate key.
23:27:56 <ehird> It's nice apart from the away behaviour
23:32:03 <ehird> poor unloved FireFly
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23:33:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:36:11 <ehird> 09:46:57 * ais523 is annoyed that the following Anarchy Golf quine-by-cheating was rejected: ps -Cps -oargs=
23:36:12 <ehird> 09:47:04 <ais523> it segfaults
23:36:17 <ehird> [ehird:~] % ps -Cps -oargs=
23:36:17 <ehird> ps: Invalid process id: s
23:37:12 <ehird> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3471 <- amazing.
23:43:21 <ehird> grah, readline is such a scourge
23:43:30 <ehird> I want to make them relicense it to lgpl at gunpoint
23:47:08 <Sgeo> Anarchy Golf ?
23:47:49 <Sgeo> Don't the FSF people think of readline as a success, for actually causing some projects to switch to GPL for its sake?
23:52:40 <Sgeo> How does one take up 12 characters to print 42?
23:54:06 <Sgeo> I mean, why would anyone try that?
23:54:16 <ehird> 2) Yes — fuck the FSF.
23:54:34 <Sgeo> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?ultimate+problem
23:54:39 <Sgeo> Look at the Python chart
23:54:42 <lament> let's write a readline clone from scratch and release it under lgpl
23:54:53 <ehird> lament: see - editline
23:55:11 <ehird> Sgeo: either 1) be an idiot, 2) be silly
23:57:08 * Sgeo doesn't get "Evil C Compiler".. is it supposed to be that it detects one of the programs supplied as input as being something and gives hardcoded output?
23:57:21 <ehird> some are legit compilers, some are not
23:57:28 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:57:28 <ehird> (where legit = regexs the C to make it valid $LANG, then eval)
23:58:01 <ehird> legit ones = my Ruby sub
23:58:05 <ehird> and the long postscript one
23:59:26 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:59:28 <Sgeo> How can you tell which are legit? None of the submissions are available, unless I'm missing something?
23:59:44 <ehird> Protip: Making a legit version takes a lot of code. The byte sizes are available.
23:59:48 <ehird> Also, I just listed all the legit ones.
23:59:55 <ehird> The postscript guy wrote about it on his japanese blog
00:05:21 <Sgeo> No one submitted any entries for XYZ?
00:16:31 <ehird> 16:41:00 <ehird> ={:'a'z..?{'a-13+26%}if}<!
00:16:31 <ehird> 16:41:04 <ehird> ninjacode, without much thought
00:16:34 <ehird> whoa ninjacode rot13 :D
00:18:24 <ehird> 0=~1+.' C~ is possibly the best code I've ever written.
00:19:23 <Sgeo> What's a good language to learn for jobs
00:20:52 <Sgeo> What about C++?
00:21:05 <ehird> maybe in the games industry.
00:21:32 <ehird> Sgeo: btw, a mainstream programming job is about the most soul-destroying thing you could do.
00:21:37 <ehird> I would reconsider.
00:21:53 <Sgeo> Or are you assuming that from TDWTF?
00:21:54 <ehird> Sgeo: y'know thedailywtf?
00:22:08 <ehird> I've had many conversations over the years :P
00:22:21 <ehird> {'{C:.'}C.}'{C:.'}C. <- ninjacode quine, awesome
00:22:43 * Sgeo can't find any information on ninjacode
00:23:09 <ehird> summary, from then:
00:23:09 <ehird> 1. small code size, for golfing 2. easy to refactor to be smaller 3. mostly written in itself, as an stdlib: a very big stdlib, with tons and tons of stuff 4. the core is just a very simple kernel written in C, which compiles the very small core it provides to native code (!!!) and then the rest is done by the stdlib
00:23:23 <ehird> it was quite elegantering.
00:23:42 <ehird> (elegant, v. to make more elegant)
00:24:53 <Sgeo> Link to interp and docs?
00:25:13 <ehird> infer whatever from that
00:25:46 <oerjan> i infer that you are infernal
00:25:56 * Sgeo wants to learn ninjacode@!
00:25:56 <ehird> Oerjan can I rent your swatter
00:26:13 <oerjan> yes; that will be 3 cuils
00:27:06 <oerjan> doubled if you swat me
00:27:27 <ehird> Sgeo: there's no compiler, nor docs.
00:27:28 <oerjan> also i infer there are no docs
00:27:35 <ehird> however I am now tempted to revive the project.
00:27:49 <ehird> Sgeo: I can explain 0=~1+.' C~ to you, if you want
00:28:01 <ehird> it linecounts a file
00:28:10 <ehird> a\nb\nc -> 1 a\n2 b\n3 c
00:28:18 <ehird> so, 0 pushes 0 to the stack
00:28:45 <ehird> = means 'while there is input: read line, push to stack, run rest of program, print Top of Stack (popping it), repeat'
00:28:57 <ehird> ~ means swap, so we get the 0 on the top of the stack, not the input
00:29:04 <ehird> ' <- note the space
00:29:09 <ehird> 'c is the ascii num of char c
00:29:13 <ehird> C prints a character from its ascii code
00:29:19 <ehird> and ~ swaps again, making the input line the ToS
00:29:24 <ehird> and the line count is still there
00:29:27 <ehird> and the new line is pushed
00:30:42 -!- Corun has joined.
00:32:32 <ehird> what don't you get :-D
00:33:47 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:36:14 <Sgeo> Nothing, I'm just not that focused on it. Would "2+" be increment of two?
00:38:31 -!- olsner has joined.
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00:45:31 <olsner> IS IT STACK-BASED!!!!?
00:50:59 <oerjan> but, is it stack-based?
00:51:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:58:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:01:20 <olsner> DOES THAT MEAN IT IS STACK BASED!?
01:01:36 <ehird> a rot13 drome: greeny <-> terral
01:08:01 <oerjan> I don't think it is stack based. The evidence is shaky to say the least.
01:11:07 <ehird> next ubuntu: "karmic koala"
01:11:09 <ehird> I am not fucking kidding
01:12:26 <Sgeo> If "fucking" was part of the name, I'd understand the issue here
01:13:25 <ehird> Karmic Koala Engaged in Intercourse
01:13:45 <olsner> btw, does norwegian have the word "kuk"?
01:17:08 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit").
01:19:27 <olsner> NotAnAlliterationException
01:20:12 <oerjan> there's a norwegian band named "Brutal Kuk", i hear
01:20:36 <olsner> how impolite and provocative of them
01:21:27 <olsner> aha, coala is a synonym for koala, according to dictionary.reference.com
01:22:05 <olsner> Cock Coala works then, although I guess the sequence of release names requires a 'k'-alliteration
01:22:18 <oerjan> they also have a giant phallus as a concert prop
01:23:38 <olsner> phallic phallus should be the fifth ubuntu release from now
01:24:12 <oerjan> nah, that will be Perfect Panda
01:25:33 <oerjan> erm in case you didn't notice it was ehird who inserted the rude words
01:26:16 <olsner> also, do we really care about such things in #esoteric?
01:26:51 <oerjan> depends whether our pedantics or our gay sex drive is strongest at the moment
01:27:44 <Sgeo> ehird, what would you suggest instead of mainstream programming?
01:28:07 <ehird> Sgeo: Make a startup, suck paul graham's dick, fail to be bought out, die of starvation.
01:28:10 <oerjan> well, then we care, duh
01:28:50 <olsner> so, gay sex => not caring about rude words?
01:29:09 <olsner> and non-gay sex => caring?
01:29:44 <Slereah_> You can't have gay sex without naughty words, olsner
01:29:55 <olsner> Slereah_: seldom would I ever
01:30:25 <olsner> also, naughty words exist without sex
01:30:52 <olsner> there's some kind of logical fallacy (phallosy?) involved
01:32:25 <oerjan> olsner: what the hell are you talking about you satanic infidel
01:32:38 -!- ehird has set topic: what the fuck are you fucking about you satanic GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.
01:32:53 <olsner> oerjan: have some fermented milk you norwegian person!
01:33:04 -!- Slereah_ has set topic: what the fuck are you fucking about you satanic GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
01:33:04 <oerjan> ehird: you missed the point, which was to have naughty words _without_ sex
01:33:20 <ehird> naughty sex without words
01:33:33 <oerjan> that's easy, but not in a topic
01:33:58 <oerjan> well would be easy if i could get some
01:34:09 <olsner> also, emily deschanel <3
01:34:30 <ehird> #esoteric is so fucking weird
01:34:31 <Sgeo> Wow, #wikipedia is deluged
01:34:34 <ehird> and also weird at fucking
01:35:04 <olsner> if there was ever fucking in #esoteric, it would probably be quite generic
01:35:13 <oerjan> deluged, or just deluded? and deranged.
01:35:31 <Sgeo> oerjan, Wikipedia is down, and the error message points there
01:35:42 <olsner> oerjan: deluged, deluded and deranged!
01:35:55 <Sgeo> "wikipedia is BROKEN for most users"
01:36:21 <olsner> oerjan: haven't had fil in a few weeks though... besides, kefir is essentially the same as fil
01:36:44 <oerjan> kefir mjølk, kefir ikkje kaffi
01:37:04 <olsner> kefir är fan inte mjölk, det är ett som är säkert!
01:37:46 <olsner> oerjan: you wouldn't happen to have a youtube clip of an angry norwegian?
01:38:04 <olsner> there was some contention over beer whether or not norwegians had the ability to be angry
01:38:11 <oerjan> olsner: that's actually a pun on "kefir" sounding like it _could_ be nynorsk for "hvorfor" / "why"
01:38:26 <oerjan> some comedians did that in a sketch or something
01:38:48 <olsner> oh, obtruse (obstuse? obscure?)
01:38:55 <oerjan> (the actual nynorsk is "kvifor")
01:39:07 <olsner> also, I see the fun of it
01:40:35 <oerjan> olsner: i'm actually not at youtube much
01:40:44 <pikhq> My external brain enhancement. :/
01:41:19 <olsner> oerjan: the best thing about norwegians though is that their english sounds like the keepers of the continuum transfunctioner
01:41:57 <olsner> and it's friggin hilarious!
01:42:00 <oerjan> what is a keeper of the continuum transfunctioner?
01:42:18 <olsner> oh, from the movie dude where's my car
01:43:07 <oerjan> olsner: here's an oldie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHT_Lu0OoAI
01:44:32 <oerjan> hm there was this washmashine repair thing...
01:44:49 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXMcp94Y-9U
01:44:56 <oerjan> oh that's just a sound file
01:45:05 <Sgeo> The deluge in #wikipedia has stopped
01:45:32 <olsner> good, so we can continue it in here now then?
01:46:00 <oerjan> but but we have no bots to spam with
01:46:45 <Sgeo> It's back, I think
01:46:58 <olsner> you mean, we have no humans to provide contents with?
01:47:16 <ehird> http://lispmachine.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/the-key/ <-- Biggest retard ever.
01:48:16 <Sgeo> You're not ... dangit no compose key
01:48:54 <olsner> oklopol: orly!? just guessing damnit :P
01:49:15 <olsner> otoh, 'hyvvä' I have actually learnt at some time
01:49:42 <olsner> yxi kaxi kolme hyvvä ei saa peittää parasta ennen
01:50:15 <olsner> ... getting your finnish corrected by the norwegian
01:50:40 <oerjan> hm i don't know that one
01:51:08 <oklopol> olsner: hyvvä ||| oklopol: olsner: yes very gdodd. <<< this is, in fact, a pun
01:52:16 <oklopol> nope, it's "hyvä", this is one of the 5 exceptional words where there are no double-letters, what ever the term is for those
01:53:16 <Sgeo> Most words have redundant letters?
01:53:17 <oklopol> i had to check my dictionary, tbh.
01:53:26 <olsner> but it's a double-v and a short-y with the accent on the last 'ä', right?
01:53:44 <Sgeo> What does hyva mean? And pretend that the a has those two dots
01:54:26 <olsner> Sgeo: you're finnish, you should know
01:54:40 <oklopol> olsner: you can't have accent on the last "ä", all accents are on the first syllable; which btw is something all languages should do.
01:54:59 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
01:55:11 <Sgeo> olsner, what do you mean, I'm finnish?
01:55:13 <olsner> accent might not be what I'm actually referring to
01:55:33 <olsner> Sgeo: you're not!!?? ok, maybe you aren't
01:55:44 <Sgeo> Is it the nick?
01:55:46 <olsner> yeah, something along those lines
01:55:53 <Sgeo> Did the nick make you think I'm finnish?
01:55:59 <oerjan> Sgeo: yeah, sgeo is finnish for dumbass
01:56:15 * Sgeo steals oerjan's swatter
01:56:26 * Sgeo swats oerjan -----###
01:56:48 * oerjan takes his swatter back
01:56:48 * olsner gets a few ascii tables and builds himself a swatter
01:57:19 * Sgeo knows 0 finnish
01:57:20 <oerjan> oklopol: you think i didn't know that?
01:57:42 <oklopol> i'm just playing my part in the convo.
01:58:03 <olsner> oh, and this is the part where you tell us we suck?
01:58:22 <olsner> makes sense, actually, but it's kind of harsh
01:58:48 <oklopol> i don't think "god you suck at finnish" is an insult
01:59:00 <oerjan> suukkaani enormousilainen
01:59:13 <oklopol> it's like a woman telling me i menstruate like a dried up piece of wood
01:59:55 <oklopol> was that your own translation?
02:00:02 <oerjan> _now_ you can tell me i suck at finnish :D
02:00:02 <olsner> oerjan: hey, I could understand that! :P
02:00:03 <oklopol> i wish i could translate it back
02:00:55 <olsner> for the love of <deity>, translate it back anyway
02:01:08 <oklopol> "enormousilainen" is a perfectly contructed name for a citizen of enormous (or enormousi)
02:01:42 <oklopol> "suukkaani" would probably be the inessive of "suukka", which is perfect finnish, but means absolutely nothing
02:02:18 <oklopol> you probably want "suukkaan", which is the first person of the verb "suukata", which again means nothing
02:02:19 <olsner> "I'm oerjan, the inessive of suukka of enormous!"
02:02:37 <oklopol> "sukata" is sometimes used for "suck"
02:02:58 <olsner> and then, sukani would mean what?
02:03:02 <oklopol> but, i have a feeling this is more interesting to me than it is to you ppl, so i think i'm gonna get me some pizza
02:03:13 <oklopol> the place closed 2 minutes ago :D
02:03:36 <olsner> I guess you're stuck with the delusions of the rest of us
02:03:36 <oerjan> hm i know -ni can be a 1st person suffix but probably nouns only?
02:04:05 <oklopol> olsner: it would be the possessive of the noun "suka", which is something you brush animals with
02:05:18 <oklopol> the only way "ni" could end a verb would be if it were in the potential, but it's rare even then, and the potential isn't really used.
02:05:31 <oklopol> (are they called "cases" or what was the term again?)
02:05:53 <olsner> it is in swedish, "kasus"
02:06:04 <oerjan> erm cases are on nouns and adjectives usually
02:06:25 <oerjan> verbs have tenses, aspects and moods
02:06:29 <oklopol> and i wouldn't suggest learning the potential anyway, since about 5% of the finnish population is able to form it
02:07:01 <oerjan> rubbish there are only 5 finns so you mean 20%
02:07:03 <olsner> tenses, aspects and moods... and here I've only learned the difference betweem tenses
02:08:12 <oerjan> well tenses might include the others too, i'm a bit unclear on that
02:08:20 <oklopol> Slereah_: congrats on the topic, i assumed it was ehird's.
02:08:29 <olsner> nah, tenses and moods and the others are pretty distinct
02:08:54 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_tense
02:09:04 <oerjan> also lists voice and person
02:10:19 <olsner> papapa-oom-mow-mow, papa-oom-mow-mow
02:10:45 <oklopol> had to think about the number for a while
02:11:22 <oklopol> only a month till it changes, then probably another month of confusion when i'm learning the new one.
02:11:43 <oklopol> oerjan: oh dang i was looking for chicks.
02:11:54 <oklopol> also the age difference could be in the other direction
02:11:59 <oklopol> except may a teensy bit less.
02:12:27 <oerjan> any chicks here since sukoshi?
02:12:28 <oklopol> i mean an irc chat with a newborn might not be all that fruitful.
02:12:48 <oklopol> hotidlerchick, although i heard from a reliable ehird he was actually a me
02:12:53 <oerjan> WAWAWA DA DA BABABA DA
02:13:16 <oklopol> i don't know what that means
02:13:46 <oerjan> oklopol: actually a me? that sounds serious
02:14:34 * oerjan shakes away the confusion and assumes oklopol was joking
02:14:57 <oklopol> i was only joking in how i said what i said
02:15:15 <oklopol> i heard from a reliable source hotidlerchick was actually oklopol.
02:15:48 <oerjan> i could believe that, except you are implying ehird is a reliable source
02:16:02 <oklopol> well okay that may have been confusing.
02:16:18 <oklopol> he said something about the ip's being the same
02:16:24 <oerjan> maybe he deceived you. it's so easy to do.
02:16:33 <oklopol> and that oklopol was probably doing the "i have a girl in here with me" gag
02:17:01 <oklopol> if i know oklopol at all, which i probably don't, that does sound like something he would do
02:17:07 <oklopol> except you'd think he'd do it a bit better.
02:17:24 <oerjan> oh i remember that, i assumed her name was Elisa Laajakaista
02:17:25 <oklopol> like, actually continue doing it until people believed him.
02:18:06 <oklopol> "broadband" would make a nice nickname for a girl
02:18:29 <oklopol> btw the next "shop" closes in 40 minutes.
02:18:38 <oklopol> so i can get my satisfaction
02:18:59 <oerjan> yeah you have to work through the snow upwards in both directions
02:19:15 <oerjan> also work, of course, with those 5 feet
02:19:27 <oerjan> (measurement, not anatomy)
02:19:44 <oklopol> i actually just fetched my bike from my parent's house
02:25:49 <olsner> oerjan is twice the age of oklopol? nice
02:25:59 <olsner> barnarov, som vi säger på svenska
02:26:23 <oerjan> oklopol isn't a child any longer
02:27:07 <oerjan> while i am eternally childish
02:28:11 <olsner> well, more like statutory rape I think
02:28:24 <olsner> i.e. it's an act not a person
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02:34:49 <shapr> pikhq: Hey, you're at an edu address, I thought Finns were not for export?
02:35:01 <shapr> oerjan: Vad gör du?
02:35:12 <shapr> I was worried for a second.
02:35:18 <shapr> Actually, that looked like japanese.
02:35:26 <pikhq> It was romanised Japanese.
02:35:47 <oklopol> "mitta" is "measure" or "length" in finnish.
02:35:58 <oklopol> was that what you were going for?
02:36:04 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
02:36:04 <shapr> Actually, I was going for "what?" in Finnish.
02:36:12 <pikhq> And it's past tense of "to see" in Japanese.
02:36:21 <oklopol> same error as olsner did earlier
02:36:24 <pikhq> Erm. Casual past tense, rather.
02:36:27 <shapr> and it's the Boston way to talk about things that keep your hands warm.
02:36:39 <oklopol> well. it's that error plus another error
02:36:45 <shapr> oklopol: Well, you might know Finnish, but I know... um.. how to UNICYCLE!
02:36:58 <shapr> really? what sort?
02:37:15 <oklopol> err dunno, ages since i used it
02:37:17 <shapr> ooh, can I show you pix of my unicycle?
02:37:50 <oerjan> "I think we can all learn something from his last words: 'Wow, a unicycle! I haven't seen those since I was a little kid!'"
02:37:54 <shapr> oklopol: http://picasaweb.google.com/shae.erisson/OakMountainUnicycling#
02:37:54 <oklopol> (i just bought it to learn the skill, i'm not actually that interested in the actual biking...)
02:38:28 <oklopol> yeah i recognize the perverted seat
02:39:09 <oerjan> oklopol is suffering from pizza withdrawal
02:39:26 <shapr> I just had a monster fried steak sub, so I am sated.
02:42:24 <oerjan> mountain unicycle, now that sounds like a disaster waiting to happen
02:42:34 <shapr> It's a lot of fun.
02:42:49 <shapr> And I bet you're a lot younger now than I was when I learned to unicycle.
02:44:23 <shapr> You are in fact, older than I am now!
02:44:45 <oerjan> as i thought, especially after seeing your picture
02:45:35 <oerjan> i'm one of the oldest regulars here though
02:45:52 <shapr> er, I'm not a regular
02:46:09 <oerjan> but you've been here before :)
02:46:10 <shapr> Though I'd love to reimplement many of wouter van oortmerssen's languages.
02:46:15 <shapr> Since he won't release them :-(
02:46:39 <shapr> Heck, I'd like to figure out how to get Aardappel to work!
02:46:43 <shapr> Maybe you guys can tell me?
02:47:19 <shapr> I guess Haskell no longer counts as an esoteric language?
02:47:30 <oerjan> i'm afraid this is a silent period on this channel
02:47:50 <shapr> Haskell used to be esoteric!
02:48:06 <shapr> about seven years ago
02:48:08 <oerjan> we have a bit more stringent definition, usually
02:48:29 <shapr> What's the stringent definition?
02:48:58 <oerjan> it cannot be intended for practical use
02:49:20 <shapr> Hm, Haskell wasn't?
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02:49:54 <shapr> No, Haskell was designed to be purely a research language.. it was hoped to be an open source version of Miranda.
02:50:06 <oerjan> that's not what i remember reading.
02:50:14 * shapr looks for the hopl paper
02:51:41 <pikhq> Also, it being a research language does not make it esoteric.
02:51:49 <pikhq> It makes it *interesting*.
02:52:13 <pikhq> Of course, a research language could be esoteric without too much effort.
02:53:10 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
02:53:25 <oerjan> that's as close to official as we get here
02:55:18 * oerjan wonders if we should make a less insulting topic
02:58:02 -!- oerjan has set topic: The intergalactic hub for esoteric programming language madness and denuement | Logs: http://bespin.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki.
03:02:12 <oklopol> shapr: on closer look that looks nothing like mine :D
03:02:17 <oklopol> i was looking at the thumbnails
03:03:23 <oklopol> shapr: Heck, I'd like to figure out how to get Aardappel to work! <<< dl it and run it?
03:04:03 <oklopol> unless you mean you want to learn to program in it, then i suggest you read wouter's paper on it
03:04:04 <shapr> oklopol: Not that easy
03:04:09 <shapr> oklopol: I tried that too.
03:04:52 <shapr> oklopol: Yeah, 26 inch wheel, 3.7 inches across
03:05:14 <oklopol> so how old were you when you learned to unicycle
03:05:34 <shapr> I started capoeira when I was 37
03:05:57 <shapr> I emailed Wouter asking for more help using Aardappel, he said to read his thesis.
03:06:37 <oklopol> usually at 30, people work, and don't really live anymore.
03:07:37 <oklopol> so what's the problem with just reading it?
03:08:03 <shapr> Either I'm clueless, or there just isn't any instruction on how to actually write code with Aardappel in his thesis.
03:08:13 <shapr> The thesis talks about the implementation, lots of cool stuff there.
03:08:19 <oklopol> i was pretty new to all stuff when i was reading it, so i got enough out of it before even getting to the details of aardappel.
03:08:22 <shapr> But how the heck do I drag the little boxes around to make stuff work?
03:08:30 <oklopol> i was like omg tree rewriting my brain explodes this is so cool.
03:08:34 <shapr> Wait, you can actually wite code with Aardappel?
03:08:43 <oklopol> i've written some little "snippets"
03:09:12 <shapr> This weekend I may bug you to show me how :-)
03:09:19 <oklopol> err, i probably didn't emphasize the "little" enough there
03:09:39 <oklopol> i don't think i've written anything that would even qualify as a useful function.
03:09:43 <oerjan> oklopol: too late, you're the official expert now
03:11:02 <shapr> oklopol: How old were you when you learned to unicycle?
03:11:24 <oklopol> shapr: maybe 12 or something
03:11:36 <oklopol> i felt like learning the basic circus stuff
03:11:37 <shapr> How old are you now?
03:11:43 <shapr> Oh, can you do backflips and stuff?
03:11:56 <oklopol> no, nothing you can't learn gradually.
03:12:30 <oklopol> i learn slowly, but i don't get tired with stuff.
03:12:55 <oklopol> i forget words when i learn new stuff.
03:12:58 <shapr> you don't lose interest
03:13:28 <shapr> Where are you, Espoo?
03:14:31 <shapr> It's cold here... not quite Rovaniemi cold, but cold.
03:34:34 <pikhq> Boston... Nice city.
03:34:41 <pikhq> Not too fond of the weather, though.
03:35:10 <pikhq> Far too hot & humid in the summer.
03:37:08 <shapr> pikhq: I'm more of an Alabama kind of guy.
03:37:25 <pikhq> I much prefer Colorado, myself.
03:39:43 * oklopol 's never been to the country
03:40:46 <pikhq> You should try being, say, 100 miles from most everything some day.
03:41:24 <oklopol> i'm already about 5 meters from everything
03:41:38 <oklopol> at least a specific instance of anything of interest
03:46:26 * oerjan recalls a friend telling about an australian bragging how he lived 3 hours drive away from the closest city
03:47:32 <oerjan> however, this friend at the time lived in Svalbard, so he responded that he too lived 3 hours away from the closest city - by jet plane
03:48:12 <oklopol> it's more about where the closest shop is
03:48:21 <oklopol> and where the nearest internet is
03:48:26 <oklopol> you don't need anything else
03:51:32 <oklopol> why don't i drink coffee all day long
03:52:16 <oklopol> i want like a coffee *machine*, like
03:52:21 <oklopol> a thingie that makes me coffee
04:08:23 <shapr> I lived in Tornio for two years.
04:09:41 <pikhq> I want an espresso machine, myself.
04:10:18 <pikhq> oerjan: 3 hours away by jet plane? That is rather impressive, I must admit.
04:10:53 <oerjan> i may or may not remember the number right
04:11:20 <pikhq> And looking at the Wikipedia page, I understand how.
04:11:49 <pikhq> Archipelagio halfway between Norway and the North Pole? Damn.
04:12:18 <shapr> Tornio isn't nearly as remote as Svalbard.
04:12:31 <shapr> But nowadays, I live about a mile from MIT and a mile from Harvard.
04:12:40 <shapr> And half a mile from Tufts
04:12:49 <shapr> and ten minutes drive away from quite a few universities.
04:13:22 <pikhq> Hmm. You'd be right about where I was at last summer...
04:13:46 * pikhq worked at Tufts as an assistant UNIX sys-admin
04:14:45 <oklopol> mit and harvard are that close?
04:14:55 <shapr> Did you know Dave the sysadmin/IT guy with the blondish ponytail? Just had his first kid?
04:15:00 <oklopol> or do you just live in a very curious location
04:15:12 <shapr> oklopol: You can almost throw rocks from MIT to Harvard.
04:15:35 <pikhq> I had *met* Dave...
04:15:45 <pikhq> Mostly, I knew Shawn.
04:15:51 <oklopol> do you happen to know how good the harvard cs stuff is?
04:16:02 <pikhq> (I was staying with him, so...)
04:16:05 <shapr> oklopol: They have some decent type theorists.
04:16:12 <shapr> Dave is my next door neighbor.
04:16:39 <oklopol> i mean i thought i'd go abroad, but then i learned they study automata here, so now i have no idea what to do.
04:17:17 <pikhq> oklopol: Yeah, MIT and Harvard are very, very close.
04:17:27 <pikhq> Was it one or two stops between them on the Red Line?
04:18:09 <shapr> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Massachusetts+Institute+of+Tech+(MIT)&daddr=1+Mass+Ave,+Cambridge,+MA+02138+(Harvard+University)&hl=en&geocode=FYNchgIdwS3D-yEGyTcCu2HJiQ%3BCVAVqufD1WnRFa5ShgId_DXD-yFiyQC9d1EFug&mra=pe&mrcr=0&sll=42.365298,-71.101678&sspn=0.031835,0.066004&ie=UTF8&z=18
04:18:33 <oklopol> the red line? seems it's a finnish opera
04:18:45 <pikhq> One of the MBTA's subway lines.
04:19:04 <shapr> Ok, so you'd need a baseball player to actually hit Harvard from MIT...
04:19:29 <oklopol> hmm. "institute of technology", i've never really even checked what the name comes from.
04:19:53 <pikhq> Damned good, I've heard.
04:19:54 <shapr> It doesn't impress me, but I like type theory, purely functional lanuages, etc
04:20:30 <pikhq> Not impressed by one of the few US universities to teach CS using Scheme?
04:20:32 <oklopol> i wish there were good objective resources on universities.
04:20:42 <shapr> pikhq: Oh don't get me wrong, I love SICP.
04:20:56 <shapr> It's just that computer science means a lot more to me now than it did when I read SICP.
04:21:28 <oerjan> oklopol: would you settle for functional ones?
04:21:31 <shapr> Nowadays I look at Pierce's Types and Programming Languages as the ABCs of computer science.
04:21:44 <oklopol> oerjan: damn should've seen that coming :D
04:22:19 <pikhq> I'd prefer a Homespringative resource on universities, though not for reasons I'm proud of.
04:22:23 <oklopol> yeah it's true there's no reason to teach programming using an actual programming language
04:22:56 <oklopol> well, in fact our advanced programming courses do not use programming languages
04:23:14 <shapr> Of course, I'd like to take classes in FORTH and type theory at the same time :-)
04:24:16 <oerjan> well there is Chris Diggins's Cat
04:24:26 <oklopol> but we're less of a computation university and more of an application university.
04:28:30 <oklopol> should probably start considering the sleeping.
04:28:52 * oerjan is considering, but haven't decided yet
04:37:08 <shapr> Man, I went to a gathering of Swedes recently...
04:37:31 <oklopol> how come factorials look so nice
04:38:04 <oklopol> they are such pretty numbers
04:38:41 <oklopol> just looking in base 10, but i'm pretty sure they're pretty in other bases too.
04:39:07 <oerjan> um, because they have many factors?
04:40:36 <oklopol> well that's pretty much what i'm asking, how come numbers look pretty when they're very composite
04:40:51 <oklopol> in fact that's kinda obvious.
04:41:50 <oklopol> wasn't at first, but i wasn't really aiming for a mathematical question, more like you know aesthetic.
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10:05:36 <oklopol> okay that was ...surreal, i lie down for like 20 minutes, thinking what time it is, then, i decide to get up, and halfway through my quick rise into a sitting position the alarm clock starts ringing
10:05:51 <ais523> oklopol: human instincts are easily trained
10:06:08 <ais523> if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring
10:06:36 <oklopol> yesterday i set the clock at 7:20 and 19:30, now it was 12:00
10:09:00 <ais523> heh, well when I was waking up on alarm clock every day a few years ago, I managed to wake up before the clock no matter when I set it
10:09:07 <ais523> it's like my body had some sort of internal clock
10:09:11 <oklopol> btw those aren't even exact times, i randomize the last digit pretty uniformly
10:09:43 <oklopol> you don't you an alarm clock anymore?
10:10:01 <ais523> my parents normally wake me up
10:10:12 <ais523> because they wake up at much the same time as I want to wake up
10:10:37 <oklopol> parents are an awesome alarm clock
10:10:47 <oklopol> girlfriends not so much :<
10:11:01 <ais523> oklopol: do you have a girlfriend?
10:16:27 <ais523> nothing much, I've been asleep
10:16:31 <ais523> I slept 16 hours yesterday
10:16:35 <ais523> well, nothing much from me
10:17:07 <oklopol> sleeping is not all that fun.
10:17:49 <oklopol> but waking up and then going to sleep again is one of the greatest feelings there are
10:18:59 <ais523> well, if you want something new: http://clc.intercal.org.uk/
10:19:06 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL has a spiffy new website
10:19:11 <oklopol> well yes sure, i guess you could generalize it to that
10:19:18 <oklopol> i'm just always tired when i wake up.
10:19:22 <ais523> I didn't have anything to do with that, but I'm probably going to profit from it anyway
10:22:34 <oklopol> ais523: ugly page, should invert the colors
10:23:06 <ais523> if I were to make a website about INTERCAL, I'd do something surprising
10:23:09 <psygnisfive> you know, i get those from glitches my computer has
10:23:14 <ais523> like flourescent pink with pictures of flowers, or something
10:23:34 <oklopol> or maybe an incredibly flashy flash animationy page
10:23:59 <ais523> nah, it should work in every browser that became popular ever
10:24:05 <ais523> including Netscape 1, and Mosaic
10:24:39 <oklopol> you could have ascii animations for ones without a gui
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10:33:55 <oklopol> so have you ever decided to learn to like a drink that tastes like a rotten space turtle?
10:35:08 <oklopol> i mean there's this drink i hate, but it looks so delicious cuz it's all green
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11:04:15 <ais523> hmm... it's laugh-at-the-name-of-the-next-version-of-Ubuntu time again
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11:22:25 <ais523> that's the version for October 2009
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13:57:10 <ehird> <ais523> if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring
13:57:11 <ehird> used to happen for me
13:57:13 <ehird> doesn't any more :(
13:57:15 <ehird> <ais523> it's like my body had some sort of internal clock
13:57:17 <ehird> well, uh, it does :P
13:57:31 <ehird> 02:11:11 <oklopol> i have a lot of things
13:57:31 <ehird> 02:11:57 <oklopol> ...i mean yes
13:57:50 <ehird> the day when a straight answer is gottenered out of oklopol is a day of amazing.
13:59:28 <ehird> <ais523> hmm... it's laugh-at-the-name-of-the-next-version-of-Ubuntu time again
13:59:32 <ehird> i said that yesterday, slowpoke.
14:00:23 <ehird> <shapr> pikhq: Hey, you're at an edu address, I thought Finns were not for export?
14:00:30 <ehird> they fall under cryptography regulations
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14:00:40 <ehird> (due to their language, so obscure that only 5 people can understand it)
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14:01:16 <ehird> <shapr> ooh, can I show you pix of my unicycle?
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14:26:31 <ehird> ais523: I dug up your tic tac toe BMP yesterday, and the logs then said you and rodgerthegreat found and/or gates and the like?
14:26:39 <ehird> I've tried to make a bmp and gate but not much success
14:27:24 <ehird> wans't aiming for repeatbe
14:27:47 <ais523> you basically have to rely on multiple clicks
14:27:53 <ais523> colouring black/blue/black to set the things off
14:28:13 <ehird> I was trying to get just input clicks
14:28:19 <ehird> ais523: I thought of a more useful fill operation that could help:
14:28:31 <ehird> if you fill black on gray, and there's a line going gray, black, gray
14:28:34 <ehird> it crosses over the black
14:28:42 <ehird> i.e., it fills both the colour you're filling and the colour you're filling to
14:28:51 <ais523> that would be more useful, although not exactly a floodfill
14:29:49 <FireFly> Ask M$ to implement it, we wanna code in Paint
14:30:10 * ais523 considers downloading the source to KolourPaint and tweaking it to do that
14:30:24 <ais523> incidentally, I updated to KDE 4.2 earlier this morning, haven't tried it out yet
14:30:27 <ais523> actually, I'm going to do that now
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14:30:51 <ehird> shapr: ooh, aardappel
14:30:54 <ehird> I'ma download it to help you
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14:33:53 <ais523> well, it isn't so broken I can't log into it, that's a start
14:33:58 <ehird> how many lightyears behind OS X is KDE now? 3?</flamebait>
14:36:29 <ais523> I haven't really used OSX, so I can't easily compare
14:36:39 <ais523> so far, I've decided I prefer gksudo to kdesudo
14:36:58 <ais523> and Kate seems to have disappeared, let me see what happened to it (I suspect it's a Kubuntu packaging screwup)
14:37:05 <ehird> yowsers, editing Aardappel is hard
14:37:12 <ehird> languages are text based for a reason...
14:37:44 <ehird> the colours are just extra keys :P
14:37:46 <ais523> but can't be edited with a normal text editor
14:37:52 <ehird> that isn't what I said
14:39:01 <ais523> well, what non-text-based languages have I used?
14:39:20 <ais523> Logicator which isn't all that bad, but which is slow and it's a pain to stop wires crossing
14:39:27 <ais523> Simulink which is awful, in more ways than one
14:39:57 <ais523> and that circuit editor thing I can't remember the name of which was actually quite good, but was converted into text in the backend I think
14:40:18 <ehird> <oklopol> nice cs in mit?
14:40:22 <ehird> from what i've heard it's considered the best
14:40:36 <ehird> from the stuff that comes/came out of there I'm inclined to agree
14:41:13 <ais523> as for the look of the thing, I like the window decorations, the widgets for menus and dialog boxes are a bit ugly though
14:43:14 <ais523> let me try to get a good one for you
14:43:21 <ais523> that also shows the biggest problem for me atm, I wonder if it's fixable
14:43:50 <ehird> ais523: by the way, Squeak was forked recently to try and remove the educational-child-yaay-fluff and make it not hideous, and integrate better with the host OS
14:44:04 <ehird> which I think solves quite a lot of your complaints about squeak
14:44:08 <ehird> screeny: http://pharo-project.org/pictures/41/p1boiza388rvo4mb1h7xxhm8g5ajji/pharo-screenshot-720.png
14:44:17 <ais523> sorry about the delay, I'm trying to find where the screenshot app/key is on here, I'm not used to it
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14:49:44 <ais523> ehird: http://filebin.ca/roupsd/kde4.2.png
14:50:06 <ais523> the K Menu is blatantly stolen from Windows Vista, or vice versa, by the way
14:50:11 <ais523> and tab-complete works cmd-style not sh-style
14:50:21 <ehird> well, it's prettier than kde3, that's for sure.
14:50:24 <oerjan> <ais523> if you set your alarm for the same time every day, after a while you'll find yourself waking up pre-emptively to hear it ring
14:50:31 <ais523> where pressing tab always returns a result, repeating tab returns subsequent results
14:50:33 <ehird> that blue window shadow/glow is a bit iffy
14:50:39 <oerjan> or rather, pre-emptively to turn it off before it rings
14:50:41 <ehird> same with those wolverine-style stripes on the title bar
14:50:47 <ehird> also, not much distinction between highlighted and not windows?
14:51:04 <ehird> those maximize/resize buttons look kind of crap
14:51:12 <ais523> the stripes disappear and the close/restore/maximise buttons are greyed out for an inactive window
14:51:15 <ehird> small and it's not clear what they do at a glance
14:51:15 <ais523> otherwise, not much difference
14:51:24 <ehird> but yeah, wtf is up with that BLUE SHADOW?
14:51:29 <ais523> but I rarely have trouble working out which window's active anyway
14:52:09 <oklopol> oerjan: i often wake up late, and see my alarm clock has been turned off, but can't really tell whether i turned it off before or after the ring because i have no memory of that.
14:52:17 <ais523> also, what blue shadow?
14:52:53 <ehird> ais523: task manager settings
14:52:55 <ehird> look at the side and top
14:53:03 <ehird> the shadow is glowing blue.
14:53:20 <ais523> ah yes, it only seems to happen on overlapping windows
14:53:32 <oerjan> oklopol: that's the reason i started putting the alarm clock too far from the bed to reach
14:53:35 <ais523> I presume the idea's so you can tell one window apart from the next, but blue is probably the wrong colour
14:53:43 <ehird> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20/wikileaks_donor_leak/ hahaha
14:53:54 <ais523> also, GTK apps seem uglier on KDE4 than QT apps on Gnome
14:54:00 <oklopol> oerjan: i usually use two or three clocks, all randomly placed around the room
14:54:02 <ehird> ais523: install gtk-qt-theme-engine
14:54:10 <ais523> because the default to the default Gnome style which is ugly
14:54:12 <ehird> it makes gtk apps use your kde theme, not perfectly but decently
14:54:21 <ais523> ehird: only when on kde, or always?
14:54:29 <oklopol> *e was because the background color was used for shadows
14:54:29 <ais523> I'd like the opposite too, to make kde apps look like gnome when I'm on gnome
14:54:37 <ehird> there's no generic way to do it
14:54:50 <ehird> but install it, it's in apt-get
14:54:54 <oklopol> ehird: link me an aardappel if you have it open
14:54:56 <ehird> you configure it via the kde settings panel <-- non intuitive
14:55:08 <ehird> oklopol: http://strlen.com/aardappel/index.html
14:55:13 <ehird> http://strlen.com/files/lang/aardappel/aarded.zip
14:55:17 <ehird> clicky the bat file
14:55:22 <ehird> and start a new project
14:55:41 <ais523> it's already installed
14:56:37 <oerjan> hm so aardappel does mean potato
14:56:47 <ehird> ais523: great, just enable it then
14:56:49 <ehird> in the kde settings panel
14:56:53 <ais523> I can't figure out where the settings panel is
14:56:58 <ais523> I found it in 4.1, but it was broken
14:57:03 <ais523> here I'm having trouble finding it altogether
14:57:30 <ais523> hmm... do you think it's under settings, settings, system, or system settings?
14:57:30 <ehird> I am getting tempted to install kubuntu
14:57:36 <ais523> someone ought to fix that k menu garble
14:57:46 <ehird> when's karmickckckckoala out again?
14:57:51 <ehird> ais523: you want system settings
14:57:57 <ais523> ehird: it's out in october
14:58:02 <ais523> jaunty jackalope's out in april
14:58:09 <ehird> is that the next release?
14:58:15 <ais523> karmic's only just been named
14:58:31 <ehird> ais523: does KDE4.2 have less settingscruft?
14:58:44 <ais523> I don't know, I can't find it
14:58:49 <ehird> I meant in general
14:58:51 <ais523> it isn't under system settings
14:59:08 <oerjan> ais523: you have to click the mouse in the lower left corner, click control shift meta alt and the mouse, move it diagonally to the other corner, release alt and meta, and chant "Ph.nglui mglw.nfah Cthulhu R.lyeh wgah.nagl fhtagn!" before you release the rest
14:59:31 <ais523> oerjan: I would actually try that, but I might get in trouble chanting here and I'm not sure how to pronounce it
14:59:41 <ais523> besides, I have super over here not meta, should I press ESC first instead?
14:59:52 <oerjan> do both just to be sure
15:00:17 <ehird> ais523: just splutter over what you can't pronounce.
15:00:33 <oerjan> ehird: i _really_ don't recommend that with these things.
15:00:45 <ais523> well, the desktop settings don't seem settingcrufty
15:00:48 <ais523> there's less there than Gnome
15:00:48 <ehird> ais523: can you test Jaunty already?
15:00:52 <ais523> but that's just what I got from right-clicking
15:00:59 <ais523> ehird: yes, you can set your repos to jaunty and download it
15:01:07 <ais523> I don't want to risk that without a spare computer, though
15:01:08 <ehird> I'd rather install jaunty plain
15:01:18 <ehird> I really want something with 4.2 out of the box, tbh
15:01:22 <ais523> they haven't packaged it onto install CDs yet, I don't think
15:01:25 <ehird> upgrading KDE and the like tends to leave cruft around
15:01:29 <ais523> but I got 4.2 from intrepid-proposed
15:01:47 <ais523> I generally run -proposed so I can help out Ubuntu with bug reports and fixes before they hit the masses
15:02:44 <ehird> why don't they build CDs automatically, anyway...
15:02:52 <ais523> hmm... Dolphin is reminding me surprisingly of Nautilus
15:02:57 <ais523> ehird: they have to decide what goes on them, I think
15:03:07 <ehird> isn't Dolphin supposed to be really crap
15:03:08 <ais523> all the standard packages ofc, but also which nonstandard ones to add
15:03:18 <ais523> ehird: well, KDE fans seem not to like it
15:03:27 <ehird> http://dolphin.kde.org/images/home.png
15:03:33 <ehird> gee, they ripped off Finder wholeslae.
15:03:51 <ais523> heh, I was going to say the same thing but with Nautilus
15:03:59 <ais523> so I can only assume that all three file managers work much the same way
15:04:09 <ehird> ais523: Nautilus is more like the mac os classic filemanager
15:04:16 <ais523> I know that Nautilus stole the eject buttons next to unmountable things from Mac OS X
15:04:21 <ehird> but that screen is almost 100% identical to Finder
15:04:36 <ais523> apart from the toolbar at the top, it's the same as nautilus too
15:05:05 <ais523> and you can even get Explorer to do that if you mess around with the settings a bit, but it isn't intelligent enough to figure out how best to do it itself and it looks even uglier
15:05:14 <ehird> that breadcrumb is nice though
15:05:44 <ais523> Nautilus has button-shaped breadcrumbs
15:06:01 <ais523> based on the Gnome principle of making clickable areas as big as you can get away with to make clicking on them faster
15:06:03 <ehird> probably if I did install linux I'd use a tiling window manager or something
15:06:13 <ais523> well, Gnome vs. KDE is more than just the window managers
15:07:11 <ehird> ais523: oh jeez, windows weenies claimed dolphin was copied from Explorer...
15:07:14 <ehird> now _that's_ plain retarded
15:07:15 <ehird> http://www.aeroxp.org/board/index.php?showtopic=8352
15:07:44 <oerjan> it's just 3 minutes ago it's not my fault you TALK SO DAMN FAST
15:08:22 <ehird> oh dear, x11 support on Leopard got worse
15:08:25 <ehird> specifically, visuals-wise
15:08:35 <ehird> they forgot to update the quartz-x11 wm to use the new window decorations
15:08:48 <ehird> so it displays a Tiger-looking window...
15:09:01 <ehird> and the shadows are all out of place.
15:10:28 <oerjan> hm patent law is going to be (even more) _hell_ once they invent time machines
15:10:32 <ehird> ais523: from that thread:
15:10:34 <ehird> "Then again, who needs linux? The ReactOS project (don't laugh!) is doing pretty well."
15:11:01 <ehird> i like reactos, but seriously
15:11:03 <ehird> look at what he's saying
15:11:09 <ehird> "We don't need other OSes, because we can clone Windows!"
15:11:19 <ais523> it has a long way to go, but I'd like to see it eventually do well
15:11:19 <ehird> "... What, you mean the other OSs are different for a _reason_?"
15:11:25 <ehird> "HA HA YEAH RIGHT"
15:12:26 <ais523> hmm... I didn't manage to find the system settings via the menus
15:12:36 <ais523> that failed too, now I'm messing with apt-cache
15:13:08 <ehird> ais523: do you think kubuntu will recognize my wireless kb/mouse from the livecd?
15:13:15 <ais523> quite possibly, I don't know
15:13:22 <ais523> but Ubuntu is pretty good at driver support nowadays
15:13:43 <ehird> unfortunately not on macs
15:13:51 <ehird> it is a pain to install linux on them
15:13:53 <ais523> aha, it wasn't installed
15:14:17 <ais523> it's because I turned off the automatic changing of which KDE features are installed
15:14:20 * ehird resizes Macintosh HD partition while booted in to it
15:14:25 <ais523> to get rid of kubuntu's usplash in favour of ubuntu's
15:14:31 <ehird> ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY
15:14:35 <ais523> ehird: that's impressive, although I can understand how it's possible
15:15:09 <ehird> actually, it fails because it's kind of fucked up -- i have a linux swap partition that i can't delete, but every operation fails because when it calls its internal libraries, they say they don't know none 'bout this here "Linux Swap"
15:15:23 <ais523> presumably you won't have to deal with having ubuntu and kubuntu simultaneously installed, so life will be easier for you
15:15:28 <ehird> if I remove linux swap, it just comes back again
15:15:40 <ehird> so I'll have to do some gparteding
15:16:11 <ehird> linux still uses x.org
15:16:17 <ehird> why am I planning to install it
15:16:22 <ehird> that way lies pain.
15:16:32 <ais523> does X not detect your screen correctly?
15:16:43 <ais523> Hardy was much better at detecting my screen than intrepid, by the way
15:16:59 <ehird> i'm not sure what it does right now, all I know is that every time I try linux, X11 fucks up somehow and I have to edit god damn xorg.conf
15:17:06 <ehird> I hate that file with the passion of a thousand burning suns
15:17:13 <ehird> lol: "Ctrl-Alt-Backspace is now disabled, to reduce issues experienced by users who accidentally trigger the key combo. Users who do want this function can enable it in their xorg.conf, or via the command dontzap --disable."
15:17:31 <ais523> in which version of what?
15:17:38 <ehird> jaunty latest alpha (4)
15:17:42 <ais523> I need to turn that back on if it's affecting Ubuntu
15:18:50 <ais523> wow, habits can form so easily
15:19:11 <ais523> I'm getting utterly confused because when I open windows, they're ending up in a different order on the taskbar relative to where they do in Gnome
15:19:39 <ehird> ais523: what would be the best way to get a system with kde 4.2?
15:19:43 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving").
15:20:02 <ais523> ehird: the advise from slashdot is to install opensuse, IIRC
15:20:11 <ais523> because they didn't mess up the packaging the same way Kubuntu did
15:20:18 <ais523> I have no personal experience of this, though
15:20:25 <ehird> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
15:20:28 <ais523> also, it's advise from slashdot
15:20:40 <ehird> yeah, to hell with slashdot.
15:20:52 <ehird> <slashdot poll> Who Poses the Greatest Threat To Your Privacy?
15:21:05 <ais523> yay, they added back the CowboyNeal option
15:21:13 <ehird> I was filling in my own answ´r
15:21:17 <ais523> it was gone for several months, and there was something of a rebellion brewing
15:21:23 <ais523> ugh, if that option's still gone...
15:21:42 <ais523> personally I think they should run polls where CowboyNeal is a plausible option even in non-Slashdot concepts
15:21:51 <ais523> such as "what's your favourite standard Slashdot poll option"
15:23:40 * ehird attempts to make linux swap into an hfs+ partition to remove it
15:24:48 <ais523> the referee's comments came back from the (3,2) Turing machine paper
15:24:56 <ais523> and one of them attacked me for numbering conjectures starting at 0
15:25:36 <ehird> NDA, I assume? because I'd love to hear that
15:25:48 <Slereah_> Well, it is true that this Alex Smith is a bit of a queer
15:25:50 <ais523> well, I haven't signed an NDA
15:25:57 <ais523> they said that Conway could get away with it but I couldn't
15:26:13 <ehird> ais523: are they trying to reject it on that premise?
15:26:23 <ais523> it was the standard reject-with-feedback
15:26:23 <ehird> would be funny if they did
15:26:36 <ehird> ais523: wait, wasn't it guaranteed to be in some journal?
15:26:40 <ehird> wolfram said so anyway
15:26:43 <ais523> which is the journal method of saying that they want to accept it, but are going to force you to make the changes rather than doing it yourself
15:26:46 <oerjan> maybe. try with the square root as well. i guess you can decompose it.
15:26:56 <ais523> and it's wolfram's journal, he has a vested interest in having it accepted
15:27:03 <ehird> "mith's Proof (to be published in Complex Systems):"
15:27:12 <ehird> compelx system's is wolfram's then?
15:27:15 <ehird> http://www.complex-systems.com/
15:27:18 <ehird> considerng that automata
15:27:47 <ais523> I also like the way the referee complains about some of my subsidiary minor results being irrelevant
15:27:53 <ehird> ais523: http://blog.wolfram.com/images/swolfram/turing_rule.gif <-- this is 2,3?
15:27:55 <ais523> maybe, but if I can establish a stronger result I may as well
15:28:00 <ehird> looks like one of the 256 automata
15:28:12 <ais523> that's a compressed version of 2,3's output
15:28:17 <ehird> right, but that graphic
15:28:25 <ehird> #ubuntu is so useless
15:28:29 <ais523> in particular, they only took the steps at which the turing tape head set a record for going left
15:28:33 <ehird> it's just idiots and stupid qusetions and flood and no help
15:28:40 <ais523> ehird: I agree, it's more useful when I'm on there helping people
15:28:46 <ehird> oi, get in there :P
15:29:01 <ais523> it's disappointing that the average competence level goes up when I ask for help and stick around later...
15:29:25 <ehird> Calamari is in there.
15:29:31 <ehird> He just asked a question.
15:29:48 <ais523> maybe I should join, but that would distract me
15:30:03 <ehird> What's the easiest way to get an Ubuntu system with kde 4.2, from scratch?
15:30:45 * ais523 vaguely wonders what would happen if you installed Debian minimal web-install, pointed the repos at kubuntu intrepid proposed, and did a dist-upgrade
15:30:59 <ehird> it'd work, but probably not as sleek as a desktop release
15:31:42 <ehird> wow, wolfram is more on crack than I realised
15:31:42 <ehird> No doubt it’ll be possible to find much better compilers, that make much better code.
15:31:42 <ehird> And that’ll be interesting. Perhaps one day there’ll even be practical molecular computers built from this very 2,3 Turing machine.
15:31:51 <ehird> no, there is no fucking way the 2,3 machine is practical, stop smoking
15:31:59 <ehird> you're hurting my brain cells
15:32:07 <ais523> everything in kubuntu is depended on by the kubuntu-desktop package, IIRC
15:32:12 <ais523> ehird: I agree, I think
15:32:21 <ehird> ais523: isn't there a minimal ubuntu install?
15:32:22 <ais523> O(2^2^n) is not practical from anyone's point of view
15:32:30 <ais523> ehird: there's the ubuntu alternate install CD
15:32:33 <ais523> which does more or less anything
15:32:35 <ehird> that's not minimal
15:32:40 <ais523> the CD itself isn't, no
15:32:43 <ehird> ais523: can you tweak it to install from another repo
15:32:46 <ais523> but I suspect minimal install would be in the options somewhere
15:32:59 <ehird> [[We don’t have to carefully build things up with engineering. We can just go out and search in the computational universe, and find things like universal computers—that are simple enough that we can imagine making them out of molecules.]]
15:33:03 <ehird> err, you freaking invented them
15:33:12 <ehird> you didn't find them in the goddamn bushes
15:33:17 <ais523> anyway, I think by far the easiest way is to install kubuntu intrepid, set the repo to -proposed and install updates
15:33:23 <ais523> that's the way it's meant to work
15:33:50 * ehird clicks 64 bit download and feels smug
15:34:20 <ehird> agh, slow download
15:34:25 * ehird gets it from germany instead
15:34:29 <ehird> germany have fast interwebs
15:34:35 <ehird> i hate mirror selections
15:34:37 <ehird> JUST PICK ONE FOR ME
15:34:52 <ais523> yes, I normally use German mirrors, either that or the one at Oxford University
15:35:01 <ehird> picking one closest to you is in fact the worst thing you can do...
15:35:03 <ais523> but the Oxford mirror doesn't have all the packages I think
15:35:22 <ehird> they're always slower than ones from countries just a few hops away from you
15:35:53 <ehird> ais523: It's because more people from the UK access sites in the UK, so the UK tubes are clogged :P</bullshit>
15:36:45 <ehird> from Italy's GARR/CILEA mirror service
15:37:01 <ais523> ehird: actually, that bullshit could be correct depending on how the peering agreements are set up
15:37:10 <ais523> although probably in this case it isn't
15:37:40 <ehird> it's the kind of thing that's totally wrong, but calculations you can make from it tend to be right in practice
15:37:49 <ehird> it leads you to the right results in the wrong way
15:38:42 <ehird> ais523: by the way, I did some research with #lisp the other day
15:38:46 <ehird> Symbolics do still sell lisp machines
15:38:51 <ehird> although obviously they don't _make_ new ones any more
15:39:01 <ehird> you have to contact their sales address
15:39:12 <ehird> and shipping makes buying prohibitive unless you live close
15:39:19 <ehird> ais523: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
15:39:28 <ehird> the neweest machine they have = $3500
15:39:40 <ehird> one down (runs on a modified old Mac) = $3200
15:39:44 <ais523> that's not that expensive
15:39:48 <ehird> same as above but less spec = $1200
15:39:49 <ais523> for something that specialised
15:39:59 <ehird> and yes, they're good prices
15:40:15 <ehird> but you have to go and get it yourself really, otherwise shipping would be crazy
15:40:37 <ehird> ais523: something I found amusing -- their sales guy commented on the torrent for their OpenGenera development environment (ported to linux)
15:40:37 <ais523> how's your VHDLing going?
15:40:40 <ehird> which had all the leaked source code
15:40:43 <ehird> dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET:
15:40:48 <ehird> Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com.
15:41:04 <ais523> and probably the best reaction
15:41:24 <ehird> yeah, it's not like symbolics are gonna be operating at a profit these days
15:41:39 <ehird> nothing they sell interests more than about 100 people in the world
15:41:52 <ehird> symbolics.com is the oldest registered domain, BTW
15:41:55 <ehird> registered in 1985
15:42:02 <ehird> and it has run continuously
15:42:18 <ehird> there might have been .orgs before that
15:42:23 <ehird> and possibly .nets for infrastructure
15:42:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3600-front.jpg
15:43:01 <ehird> apparently they're very, very lou
15:43:10 <ehird> most people put them in another room and hook up the terminal with a long cable, IIRC
15:43:38 <ais523> what makes them so noisy?
15:43:40 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics3640.JPG
15:43:44 <ehird> that's the $3500 one
15:43:48 <ehird> ais523: well, they're 80s hardware
15:43:54 <ehird> and they aren't micropcs, they predate that
15:44:12 <ehird> ais523: I think they were the first "single-user" machines after the mainframe boom
15:44:29 <ehird> so it was just the power fit into the small space and stuff like that
15:46:23 <ais523> for some reason Konqueror didn't have a "back" button by default
15:46:27 <ais523> I reset it to defaults, then it did
15:46:34 <ais523> so either configuration borkage or packaging borkage
15:46:48 <ehird> funnily enough, the reason lisp machines were single-user was because it was easier to implement
15:46:54 <ehird> and let them put in less safety checks
15:46:58 <ehird> (to avoid, e.g. people crashing it)
15:48:19 <ehird> i think I might write a program to generate tons of combinators
15:49:01 <ehird> ais523: by the way, I refound ninjacode yesterday and sgeo told me to revive it
15:49:09 <ais523> well, KDE4.2 still seems to have the usual huge set of settings
15:49:15 <ais523> ehird: yes if you think you can make it work
15:49:23 <ehird> ais523: does it have gtk/qt ones
15:49:27 <ehird> also, I think I can
15:49:32 <ais523> on the other hand, I rather like that, for me it's what makes KDE KDE
15:50:04 <ehird> ninjacode linecounter:
15:50:27 <ehird> {'{C:.'}C.}'{C:.'}C.
15:50:34 <ais523> hmm... how short can I get the linecounter in Perl?
15:50:38 <ehird> (same principle as underload quine)
15:50:53 <ais523> how many is it in ninjacode?
15:50:54 <ehird> oh that's not the same
15:51:05 <ehird> ais523: this adds line counts
15:51:05 <ehird> a\nb\nc -> 1 a\n2 b\n3 c
15:51:06 <ais523> oh, what's the ninjacode doing?
15:51:37 <ais523> perl -pe '$_="$.. $_"'
15:51:38 <ehird> 0=~1+.' C~ <- = is like perl -p, it runs the rest of the program with the next line on TOS, then prints TOS and goes a gain
15:51:52 <ehird> ~ is swap, . is print, 'c is the num of character c, C prints a character out from its number
15:52:01 <ehird> from that it should be fairly clear how that works
15:52:12 <ehird> ais523: so as an actual program:
15:52:32 <ehird> ninjacode wins hands-down, then
15:52:36 <ehird> although, = as a filter is kind of stupid
15:52:39 <ehird> as it should be equality
15:52:46 <ehird> whatever, it's the principle of the thing
15:53:17 <ais523> I wonder if I should add bitwise-XOR to Underlambda as a one-char operator not a library keyword?
15:53:29 <ais523> that way, it could be used for equality tests the same way subtraction can be used for greater-than
15:53:41 <ais523> (subtraction in Underlambda saturates at 0)
15:54:00 <ehird> kubuntu downloaded!
15:54:05 <ehird> the 64 bit version works fine right?
15:54:45 <ehird> ais523: parsing ninjacode is very TC, by the way
15:54:59 <ehird> as you can extend the parser in arbitrary ways, and it always picks the longest matching symbol name
15:55:08 <ais523> parsing underlambda will be relatively trivial, but not as easy as underload
15:55:10 <ehird> {+ is {+ if {+ is defined, otherwise it's {, +
15:55:18 <ehird> an exception is made for alphanumerics
15:55:22 <ehird> in that foo is always foo
15:55:27 <ehird> although foo+ can be foo+ or foo,+
15:55:29 <ais523> ehird: if {+ and +% are defined, but {+% isn't, what does {+% parse as?
15:55:39 <ehird> you can require libraries that do this kind of stuff to the parser at any time
15:55:42 <ehird> including in e.g. conditionals
15:55:52 <ehird> thus, you CAN compile it, but only if you disallow tricksy includes
15:55:59 <ehird> but full ninjacode is Very Highly Unparsable
15:56:04 <ehird> you can't even parse a file at a time
15:56:10 <ehird> it has to be one token at a time
15:56:49 <ehird> ais523: it sees {+, all going good, then %, oops {+% isn't defined, break here, {+, %
15:57:04 <ais523> what about {+%} when {+ and +%} are defined?
15:57:04 <ehird> it parses left-to-right, top-to-bottom because the syntax can change at any time
15:57:05 <ehird> so this is consistent
15:57:16 <ehird> ais523: {+, %, }, yep
15:57:27 <ehird> but generally you shouldn't use names that aren't defined :P
15:58:19 <ehird> ugh, the only blank cd I can find is dusty as hell
15:58:23 <ais523> do they have a default meaning?
15:58:40 <ehird> ais523: trigger an error
15:58:41 <ais523> ehird: ugh, you mean Macs can't install operating systems without rebooting?
15:59:03 <ais523> given that you're installing onto a different partition, in theory it ought to be possible
15:59:07 <ais523> using virtualisation or something
15:59:15 <ehird> ais523: that'd mess up hardware detection
15:59:22 * ehird just uses a dvd-writable
15:59:26 <ehird> I feel kind of bad, but I have like 100 :P
16:00:12 <ehird> ugh, they're in unopenable packaging
16:02:19 <ehird> putting 700 MB on a 4.7GB disk feels kind of silly
16:02:31 <ais523> you'll still have the rest left to put things on
16:02:50 <ehird> ais523: well, yes, this is a rewritable disk, but err
16:03:00 <ehird> you know that regular CDs/DVDs only burn once right?
16:03:08 <ais523> I've burnt a CD-R more than once
16:03:12 <ais523> you can burn into the unused space
16:03:16 <ehird> unsupported-ly, I assume.
16:03:19 <ais523> although you can't overwrite what you've already burntt
16:03:28 <ais523> I did this using Windows XP's out-of-the-box CD burner
16:04:03 <ais523> when accessing a recordable CD, drives look past the end of the burnt area to see if anything's been burnt there
16:04:11 <ais523> so that the multiple-burning thing works
16:04:23 <ais523> you lose some space (a few KB I think) in overhead every time you burn, though
16:04:57 <ehird> I hope the burn/reboot cycle is fixed sometime
16:05:08 <ais523> what fix do you imagine?
16:05:11 <ehird> like, have special hardware that you copy an ISO to, and it mounts it, somehow
16:05:19 <ehird> so you just download the ISO, click, reboot
16:05:22 <ehird> and it's there as a drive
16:05:44 <ais523> maybe a very small virtualiser in firmware
16:07:27 <ehird> 13:17:35 <ais523> important decision: what should we parse the code into?
16:07:27 <ehird> 13:18:51 <ehird> ais523: CLASSES
16:07:27 <ehird> 13:19:01 <ehird> <oklopol> LISTS
16:07:27 <ehird> 13:19:06 <ehird> <ais523> MORE NORMALIZED STRINGS
16:08:06 <ehird> <Riastradh> FUNCTIONS!
16:08:43 <ais523> COMPONENTALIZED VISUAL ACTIVEX COMPONENTS!
16:09:12 <ehird> CPUS FABRICATED ON-THE-FLY TO PROCESS THE DATA!
16:09:31 <ais523> because everyone likes kittens, obviously
16:09:50 <ehird> all built to one design
16:09:56 <ehird> the errors in each one from the design represent the bit patterns
16:10:00 <ehird> of the in-memory representation
16:10:08 <ais523> heh, reminds me of that esolang which is disguised as pip
16:10:51 <ehird> Righty ho, I will now reboot.
16:11:01 <ehird> I expect to be conversing with you while installing Kubuntu.
16:11:07 <ehird> If I am not, I will flame Ubuntu when I return.
16:11:17 <ehird> FLAME PREPARATION ->
16:13:11 <oklopol> well there's a nice homomorphism from code to the empty program.
16:13:42 <oerjan> it even preserves sequential composition
16:14:13 <oerjan> well for some languages that is
16:14:33 <oerjan> it may also preserve quine-ness
16:16:13 <oerjan> and it can be used to strip comments
16:16:48 <oklopol> not to mention the compression.
16:17:21 <ais523> it also gives a 100% reduction in execution time
16:18:32 <oerjan> oh and it gives very good encryption
16:19:01 <oerjan> you'd really wonder why it isn't used more often
16:19:38 <oerjan> (guaranteed unbreakable, no silly P=NP assumptions)
16:19:44 <ais523> oerjan: unfortunately, on some programs it introduces bugs where they don't do what they're meant to do
16:20:09 <oerjan> well that's true, on the other hand it also removes most bugs
16:22:25 <ehird> ais523: Disappointing.
16:22:27 <ehird> It booted up fine, I selected try out, it booted into KDE. My mouse and keyboard are then sterile. (It only worked at bootup because of bios compatibility layer stuff)
16:22:45 <ehird> Fixable, I am sure.
16:22:51 <ehird> But not very out of the box.
16:23:06 <ais523> I used to use a wireless mouse, and it worked just fine in Ubuntu
16:23:09 -!- k2 has joined.
16:23:14 <ais523> but threw it away because I was bored of replacing the batteries
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16:23:39 <ehird> this mightymouse has fallen on the floor many times and its battery life is painfully short because of that
16:23:39 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga.
16:23:56 <ehird> it's still better than other mice, though...
16:24:44 <ehird> ugh, they recommend rEFIt for booting
16:24:48 <ehird> but rEFIt slows down the boot and is slow
16:27:23 <ehird> [16:27:18] <umar> i cant under stand ..................................................its tu tu that ,,,,,,,
16:27:29 <ehird> popular channels are painful.
16:28:45 <ais523> ehird: are you online from Mac OS X atm?
16:29:00 * ehird bets he gets an answer starting "First, click"
16:30:16 <ehird> http://www.geekaholic.org/2008/04/good-bye-gentoo-hello-leopard.html <-- worst april fools ever
16:30:32 <ehird> it's a reasonable, well-thought out post on why switching to leopard could make sense. ha! ha! HHAHAHA!
16:32:26 <ehird> ais523: welp, looks like I need to use my usb mouse/kb
16:33:23 <oklopol> yeah you should definitely use your mouse to kickban umar
16:33:44 <ehird> ais523: do you know how horrific rEFIt is?
16:34:04 <ais523> it seems slightly pointless given that it just chains into GRUB for anything but boot-to-Mac
16:34:07 <ais523> it looks pretty, though
16:34:10 <ehird> first, you get a horrible screen on startup with the kind of icons linux users make that they think look like os x because they have lens flares on them
16:34:14 <ehird> then, to boot into linux,
16:34:16 <ehird> it BOOTS INTO LILO
16:34:23 <ehird> it goes rEFIt -> lilo -> linux
16:34:30 <ais523> yes, I know about the chaining
16:34:36 <ehird> it's awful. awful awful awful.
16:34:36 <ais523> the example I saw was worse, though
16:34:38 <ehird> and lilo is awful.
16:34:52 <ais523> it was refit -> mac os x, or alternatively you could choose windows or linux
16:35:04 <ais523> and whichever you chose, it went to a grub menu where you chose windows/linux
16:35:07 <ehird> maybe I could make bootcamp work...
16:35:17 <ehird> that uses the regular mac bootloader
16:35:27 <ehird> and lets you hold down option at the bootup screen to choose mac / "windows"
16:35:28 <ehird> and defaults to mac
16:35:35 <ehird> = same speed, no lilo, etc
16:35:52 <ehird> I hate that smiley
16:37:22 <ehird> I like how leopard comes with boot camp
16:37:32 <ehird> how many other OSes include fully-developed tools to run other OSes?
16:37:57 <ais523> well, there's Wubi, I'm not sure what you count that as though
16:38:03 <ehird> does that come with windows
16:38:20 <ehird> ok, I'm going to boot into kubuntu livecd again to delete the swap partition, reboot into OS X, run boot camp, then install kubuntu
16:38:25 <ais523> I like the way that the Windows and Linux filesystems each think the other's filesystem is inside their own
16:38:26 <ehird> as soon as I get my USB stuffs
16:38:36 <ehird> ais523: klein filesystem
16:38:49 <ehird> wubi is stupid as a long-term system, anyway
16:39:00 <ais523> although physically the linux system's inside the windows system, as the windows system ends up in /dev
16:39:13 <ais523> and why do you say that about wubi?
16:39:24 <ehird> because you're just living on top of windows
16:39:29 <ehird> = second-class citizen
16:39:47 <ais523> it's not living on top
16:40:12 <ais523> it's an entirely separate OS, it just installs itself into the location on the disk where windows would expect applications to be installed, and adds registry entries
16:40:20 <ais523> if you boot into linux with wubi, windows has nothing to do with anything
16:40:24 <ais523> apart from the filesystem being ntfs
16:41:46 <ais523> ugh, perl.org's still down
16:42:51 <oerjan> eine kleine filesystem
16:44:04 <ais523> are filesystems really female?
16:44:19 <oklopol> i thought it was some kinda term
16:44:22 <ehird> okay, horrible usb kb & mouse in operation
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16:56:33 <ais523> ehirdbuntu: is the wireless working too?
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16:58:27 <ehirdbuntu> there, swap partition deleted, os x time so I can run boot camp ->
16:59:16 <ehirdbuntu> no wait, it wants a root partition to continue, argh!
16:59:52 <ehirdbuntu> ais523: can you type hash-kubuntu for me? there's no hash key here...
17:00:02 <ais523> and isn't it on shift-3?
17:00:10 <ais523> that's where it is on a US keyboard
17:01:43 <ehirdbuntu> ais523: do you know how to partition edit on kubuntu livecd without installing? :P
17:01:58 <ais523> not off the top of my head
17:02:23 <ehirdbuntu> also, the new startup menu is very nice
17:02:31 <ehirdbuntu> it's a blend of the windows start menu and the os x spotlight
17:02:31 <ais523> ehirdbuntu: try ktparted rather than gparted?
17:02:45 <ais523> the gnome partition editor is unlikely to be on a KDE system
17:02:56 <ais523> what about just parted?
17:03:11 <ehirdbuntu> works, but has the hideous console interface :-D
17:05:32 <ais523> do you want me to look it up?
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17:19:13 <ehird> ais523: how much space do you think I should give ubuntu?
17:19:15 <ehird> boot camp gives 5gb by default, which would leave me ~3gb of space for documents
17:19:29 <ehird> 10gb for ubuntu would leave 64gb free on OS X
17:19:56 <ais523> well, it depends on how many documents you're storing on each side
17:20:05 <ais523> 5gb seems about right, you'll want your documents on the mac side, probably
17:20:10 <ehird> likely not much on linux, I'm only going to be using it for coding and messing about
17:20:17 <ehird> yeah, 10gb would leave more room for expansion though
17:20:22 <ehird> and still leave me a lot on os x side
17:28:23 <ehird> parittioneratering
17:28:28 <ehird> partitioning takes far too long
17:28:46 <ais523> it has to move a lot of thigns around
17:31:49 <ehird> all the space it's using was free
17:31:58 <ehird> hmm it says you need 32-bit windows
17:32:05 <ehird> it should work with 64 bit linux
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17:38:54 <ais523> what are you going to talk about during the install?
17:39:18 <oerjan> i thought tic-tac-toe was the game of choice these days
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17:40:28 <ehirdbuntu> what swap space is recommended? I have 2.5gb ram
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17:40:59 <ais523> half your ram is usual
17:41:26 <ais523> nowadays it doesn't really matter if you set it to 0 or your entire drive, until the point where you run out of memory altogether
17:42:03 <ehirdbuntu> ext3 is the recommended fs still, right?
17:42:19 <ais523> although it'll probably be ext4 in a year, once that's stable
17:43:55 <oklopol> i recently learned to play infinite board tic tac toe in my head, but somehow i think it's less impressive on irc
17:44:07 <ais523> oklopol: have you ever played 4 dimensional tic tac toe?
17:44:14 <ais523> it works pretty well on a 4x4x4x4 board
17:44:29 <oklopol> ais523: i've played infinite dimensional tic tac toe.
17:44:43 <ais523> but limiting the size of the board makes it work better
17:44:49 <oklopol> i had a bot for that here once
17:44:58 <ais523> as for infinite board, how many in a row do you play? 5, like the japanese do?
17:45:11 <ais523> they play on a 19x19 board but it may as well be infinite, players rarely reach the edges
17:45:17 <oklopol> the japanese and the finnish
17:45:24 <ais523> and do you play the 3-3 / 4-4 barring rules?
17:45:26 <oklopol> no one plays the 3x3 tic tac toe, it's stupid
17:45:35 <oklopol> i don't know what those are
17:45:45 <ais523> it's a technique to remove the first player advantage
17:46:06 <ais523> a four is any position where you could add one counter and get five in a row
17:46:29 <oklopol> "remove it", has that been proven?
17:46:33 <ais523> a three is any position where you can make a four which has two locations to add the final counter by adding one counter
17:46:37 <oklopol> that all games are draws with it
17:46:41 <ais523> oklopol: it doesn't manage it perfectly, but it reduces it somewhat
17:47:05 <oklopol> i mean it's a solved game, so could've been proven
17:47:05 <ais523> the rules say that the first player (but not the second player) can't play a move that simultaneously creates two threes, and can't play a move that simultaneously creates two fours
17:47:21 <ais523> apparently the first player still has an advantage even after that
17:47:36 <ais523> so some groups also play that the first player can't get 6 or more in a row
17:48:00 <oklopol> well i suck at the game, just like i suck in most games
17:51:28 <ehirdbuntu> I'm thinking killer butterfly, or criminal lightbulb, or kitten.
17:53:17 <oerjan> this is disturbing, the number of google hits is about the same for those
17:53:47 <oklopol> what, people can't spell "fhtagn"? well yeah that is pretty disturbing
17:54:01 <oklopol> i have a bad feeling the shop closes at 20 and not at 21...
17:54:13 <oklopol> i mean it has to, since it's nearly 20 already
17:54:19 <AnMaster> <ehirdbuntu> ext3 is the recommended fs still, right? <-- in case you are interested I usually use ext3 for / and /boot, and xfs for the rest (/home /var /usr, and /opt is symlinked to /usr/opt)
17:54:33 <oklopol> that's how shops work, they close when you decide to go to them.
17:54:43 <AnMaster> ehirdbuntu, I usually use LVM too :)
17:54:44 <ais523> AnMaster: well, even if you're correct, and you probably are, ehirdbuntu is going to disagree with you on principle
17:55:39 <AnMaster> ais523, well I find that xfs has what I want from ext4 but is a lot more well tested and stable. Stuff like defrag and such. Not that xfs gets as fragmented as ext3...
17:55:55 <ais523> and not that ext3 gets fragmented enough to matter anyway
17:56:04 <AnMaster> and last I looked online defrag was still not completed for ext4
17:56:15 <oklopol> it's funny how ais523 has started commenting like that just after ehird actually started deserving it much less. maybe it's just so ais523 wouldn't be right, dunno, still funny.
17:56:15 <ais523> besides, it's well known that tar is a pretty effective defragmenter
17:56:18 <AnMaster> ais523, depends, I had some partitions manage that fine, while other got super-fragmented
17:56:20 <ais523> tarball your filesystem, untar it again
17:56:40 <oklopol> i mean he did not disagree with AnMaster on principle there for instance
17:57:09 <AnMaster> also there is no single best FS for everyone IMO. People use computers in different ways
17:57:20 <oerjan> oklopol: stop talking bullshit!
17:57:23 <ais523> although I imagine most of them are better than bffs
17:58:03 <AnMaster> ais523, however I can say ext3 gets fragmented for /usr/portage on gentoo. Lots of small files (so I use a smaller than usual block size for it on xfs to not waste space).
17:58:05 <oklopol> oerjan: i cannot, i like noticing patterns in how people respond to patterns in other people.
17:58:53 <AnMaster> find /usr/portage -type f | wc -l
17:59:23 <AnMaster> ais523, that is on xfs since with ext3 it got very slow and fragmented
18:00:06 <AnMaster> also I have a special partition for it, due to the very different usage pattern for it compared to the rest of /usr
18:00:21 <ais523> why is portage directly under /usr by the way?
18:00:39 <AnMaster> ais523, why is the default location /usr/ports on freebsd?
18:00:52 <ais523> I'd expect it to be inside /usr/share somewhere, or maybe even /var
18:00:54 <AnMaster> both fill the same purpose basically
18:01:04 <ais523> although /usr makes more sense I suppose as you're editing /usr anyway
18:01:33 <AnMaster> ais523, you could change the location in /etc/make.conf
18:01:38 <ehirdbuntu> those who know me will know i hate all filesystems.
18:01:49 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you suggest instead?
18:01:57 <ehirdbuntu> ais523: git is nice ... for a filesystem.
18:02:13 <ais523> it has all the features a filesystem needs
18:02:17 <ais523> so how is it not a filesystem?
18:02:36 <ehirdbuntu> AnMaster: as for what I suggest instead -- I'll elaborate when I have my regular kb back
18:02:37 <AnMaster> ais523, one thing IMO: It needs to run on another file system for the actual data storage
18:02:54 <AnMaster> but I guess that depends on how you define fs
18:03:09 <AnMaster> so yeah it could be considered a fs
18:03:26 <AnMaster> ehird, kb? knowledge base? kickban?
18:03:42 <ehirdbuntu> instead of storing its metadata in sectors, it stores them in host files
18:05:33 <AnMaster> ehird, hm still changing from using n files to 1 raw linear block device is not that trivial... Since suddenly you need to handle "next block is already used for something else". Which is handled by the filesystem otherwise. In fact it is one of the important tasks for a "traditional" file system.
18:05:48 <AnMaster> so I guess it is a filesystem more like unionfs is one
18:05:56 <ehirdbuntu> you'll see the likeness to an fs, almost certainly
18:06:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I did once, but yeah it was ages ago
18:06:11 <ehirdbuntu> plus, the general structure is fs-like
18:06:25 <AnMaster> FETCH_HEAD HEAD ORIG_HEAD branches config description hooks index info logs objects refs
18:07:40 <AnMaster> 00 05 10 18 20 2a 32 37 3f 44 4d 56 60 [... more of the same cut here, lots more, but don't want to spam too much on irc ...] info pack
18:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, from file (and I suspect it is wrong):
18:08:17 <AnMaster> objects/ad/635812a04ef5b45dddc8386e0b9dbe7bc56435: VAX COFF executable - version 8256
18:08:17 <AnMaster> objects/ad/b9d370d66c4ea6655c61e17a187b1eaa804dea: VAX COFF executable not stripped
18:08:17 <AnMaster> objects/b1/145b6715205d42d6a1f4ce9ddd7a061018be0e: VAX COFF executable - version 21221
18:08:36 <AnMaster> pahole is a kernel.org project, lots of source, no executables
18:08:44 <AnMaster> so I guess compressed in some way
18:09:10 <ehirdbuntu> AnMaster: that version looks like VMS version number to me
18:09:16 <ehirdbuntu> 21221... that's one heavily modified file
18:09:37 <AnMaster> ehird, file thinks everything in objects/[:xdigit:]/* is various variants of VAX COFF executable
18:09:57 <oerjan> ehirdbuntu: well with all that coughing there have probably been a constant stream of virus on it
18:10:07 <AnMaster> objects/2d/8c3aff822c2d0c924600e0ebe82a18df28013e: VAX COFF executable not stripped - version 24267
18:10:11 <AnMaster> objects/24/d209abe394af6b364e07e78a8712efb80fc17c: VAX COFF executable
18:10:29 <AnMaster> ehird, the stuff in objects/pack/:
18:10:35 <AnMaster> objects/pack/pack-33e576f64aedf6aed156f3ccdabdbc445b9317b5.idx: data
18:10:35 <AnMaster> objects/pack/pack-33e576f64aedf6aed156f3ccdabdbc445b9317b5.pack: Quake I or II world or extension
18:10:35 <AnMaster> objects/pack/pack-873f1ade3da35d4dfb915611ffd24243e73f0025.idx: data
18:10:35 <AnMaster> objects/pack/pack-873f1ade3da35d4dfb915611ffd24243e73f0025.pack: Quake I or II world or extension
18:10:50 <ehirdbuntu> kernel devs hide their quake modz in git files, yep
18:10:57 <AnMaster> ehird, either git is worse than I thought or...
18:11:22 <AnMaster> did you say I should look at refs too?
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18:12:12 <AnMaster> ehirdbuntu, btw I haven't done anything but some git pull on this repo, no commits or such
18:13:10 <MizardX> http://steike.com/code/useless/zip-file-quine/ :)
18:13:18 <AnMaster> refs/tags/v1.0 refs/tags/v1.1 refs/tags/v1.2 refs/tags/v1.3 refs/tags/v1.4 refs/tags/v1.5 refs/tags/v1.6 refs/remotes/origin/HEAD refs/remotes/origin/master refs/heads/master
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18:43:34 <ehird> does konversation look kde3-style to you too/
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19:23:42 <ehird> [19:23] <burkmat> !hi | rapha
19:23:43 <ehird> [19:23] <ubottu> rapha: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu!
19:27:06 <GregorR> From that screenshot, it definitely looks KDE3-style :P
19:27:37 <ehird> woo apple keyboard works
19:29:49 <GregorR> Why would anybody voluntarily use an Apple keyboard ... I've never used an Apple keyboard that wasn't a miserable pile of crap.
19:30:10 <ehird> ... wow ... poor you. The 2006 and 2007 apple keyboards are absolutely perfect.
19:30:20 <ehird> Sure, every one before that was god-awful...
19:30:29 <ehird> But these are the best keyboards I've ever used (and I've used a model M.)
19:31:02 <ehird> Whee, mouse works too.
19:31:46 <GregorR> I don't exactly know what keyboards Apple was cranking out each year :P
19:34:39 <ehird> GregorR: http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/images/user/products/Apple-keyboard.jpg
19:34:41 <ehird> not the best picture
19:34:47 <ehird> (the keys are shallower than they look there...)
19:35:35 <GregorR> Well, that looks very much like a keyboard :P
19:36:06 <ehird> 255 package upgrade GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
19:37:53 <GregorR> Because your system stores the number of updates in an unsigned char? :P
19:38:49 <ehird> I want a car signed by gregor
19:39:43 <ehird> is that a really tiny penis
19:39:54 <GregorR> ... with an inverted head?
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19:46:36 <comex> http://entrian.com/goto/
19:50:12 <Sgeo> No COBOL style ALTER? Or am I hallucinating tha there's an ALTER?
19:50:33 <Sgeo> ...there's a COBOL 2002 standard?
19:55:21 <comex> ^ there must be a cdr joke somewhere
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20:01:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> ... wow ... poor you. The 2006 and 2007 apple keyboards are absolutely perfect. <-- what happened during 2008?
20:02:50 <AnMaster> oh and is http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/images/user/products/Apple-keyboard.jpg a slimmed model or a more full size usable one?
20:03:31 <Slereah_> Fact : French mac keyboards have , instead of . on the number pad
20:03:51 <AnMaster> Slereah_, Fact: So does all Swedish keyboards I ever seen
20:03:56 <comex> hey ehird want to take over A Nomic
20:04:07 <AnMaster> since we use , instead of . for decimal point
20:05:16 <ehird> AnMaster: That's full size
20:05:18 <ehird> size of a regular kb
20:05:40 <ehird> and the ridges between keys are nice, I almost never mistype
20:05:52 <AnMaster> ehird, and how far does keys go when you press them? on most laptops they don't got down as much as on classical PC keyboards
20:06:11 <ehird> they go down quite a bit, more than regular pc keyboards
20:06:19 <ehird> they're specially weighted
20:06:31 <ehird> but it's quite a quiet keyboard, unlike the model M, still tactile though
20:07:07 * FireFly wants a flat-keyed Das Keyboard Ultimate with quiet buttons
20:07:41 <AnMaster> are they as nice as those clicking keyboards?
20:07:58 <ehird> AnMaster: = model Ms, yes, I'd say easier to type with too
20:08:01 <AnMaster> while I hate the clicking sound the tactile experience was good
20:08:04 <ehird> since you have to quite hit the keys with model m-s
20:08:25 <ehird> AnMaster: unfortunately, you can't buy those any more, there's a new model out
20:08:32 <ehird> which looks nicer but has less tall keys
20:08:48 <ehird> well, actually, I have a spare one here iirc :-P
20:08:53 <ehird> you could probably get one from ebay though
20:09:06 <AnMaster> well a lot of keyboards has tend to go down when you just rest your hand and don't type, s o yes the extra force for model m-s is nice
20:09:14 <AnMaster> for me, it is subjective of course
20:09:27 <ehird> I can lie my hand on this kb and it doesn't press
20:09:36 <ehird> it seems to be: hard, easy, hard
20:09:51 <ehird> i.e., hard to initially press, easy to go down, then hard for the last bit
20:10:02 <ehird> [20:09] <ehird> i.e., hard to initially press, easy to go down, then hard for the last bit
20:10:06 <ehird> context is for the weak
20:11:55 <ehird> okay, reboot into kde4.2 hopefully ->
20:21:18 <ehird> Please reconnect via wireless when you boot. Honestly.
20:21:21 <ehird> It's not hard, goddammit!
20:22:06 <ehird> Apart from that... Hey, this ain't bad.
20:22:11 <comex> by the way, until ehird joins ##Nomic, I'm going to talk about nomic in here
20:22:15 <comex> so it's in all your interests to get em to join
20:22:22 <ehird> ais523 will complain at you.
20:22:56 * ehird installs firefox because konqueror is awful.
20:23:13 -!- k2 has joined.
20:23:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:23:26 -!- k2 has changed nick to kar8nga.
20:23:35 <ehird> comex: I see no nomic talk.
20:39:49 <Ilari> Pretty only things from Firefox I miss with Konqueror are proper sessions support, NoScript and that one site nickname extension...
20:40:25 <ehird> I kind of dislike the "doesn't support shit" part.
20:42:45 <ehird> shit, linux font rendering is really terrible.
20:42:51 <ehird> like really really awful
20:43:07 <ehird> compared to OS X? I want to rip my eyes out.
20:44:15 <AnMaster> ehird, got the wireless working yet?
20:44:41 <ehird> They've always worked, it just forgets it at startup because it's stupid.
20:44:50 <AnMaster> ehird, also about font rendering: depends
20:44:50 <ehird> Well, I say always.
20:44:57 <ehird> I mean after I spent ages getting it working.
20:45:01 <ehird> AnMaster: yer joking right
20:45:15 <AnMaster> if you compile freetype from source you can enable an algorithm that apple patented
20:45:26 <AnMaster> because they don't like legal issues
20:45:28 <ehird> AnMaster: screenshot of the result?
20:45:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well there was some website comparing
20:47:06 <AnMaster> ehird, first: some background about the issue, it is related to hinter
20:47:08 <AnMaster> http://www.freetype.org/patents.html
20:47:11 * ehird worries about machine; Linux doesn't seem to put the machine at rest like os x
20:47:13 <ehird> the fan's always going
20:47:24 <ehird> oh it would be better if it only sucked one ball
20:48:28 <ehird> stop whirring machine :(
20:48:59 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I'm not sure about such stuff. But probably it is just a case of finding the right setting
20:49:04 <ehird> people keep saying turn off hinting in the google
20:49:05 <ehird> and i rage at them
20:49:06 <AnMaster> since I *don't* have a laptop...
20:49:15 <ehird> because if you turn off hinting you can see the subpixel
20:49:18 <ehird> AnMaster: err, nor I
20:49:38 <AnMaster> and this one has "one speed always fan"
20:49:49 <AnMaster> I have dynamic cpu speed activated though
20:49:49 <ehird> normally my fan is off
20:50:03 <AnMaster> especially the GPU fan is loud
20:50:04 <ehird> yeah, this is distracting :-P
20:50:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well, since I don't have a computer that supports fan control I don't know exactly
20:50:39 <AnMaster> iirc lm_sensors bundles something called fancontrol
20:50:50 <AnMaster> possibly acpi is used for other fans
20:51:08 <AnMaster> I'm not really the right person to ask about that sort of stuff
20:51:14 <ehird> 'Read-only file system'
20:51:17 <ehird> I hate it when that happens
20:52:11 <AnMaster> ehird, err how the heck did you manage that?
20:52:38 <ehird> dunno; it happens all the time for me with linux
20:52:48 <ehird> i think linux just hates me
20:52:50 <ehird> like hate hate hate hate hate
20:53:06 <ehird> maybe I should flaming os x, it might like me more then
20:54:30 * ehird votes to name new nasa node "Mister Splashy Pants"
20:55:02 <oklopol> anyone want to share their mind with mine?
20:55:15 <oklopol> i mean like, so that we'd both control both bodies
20:55:25 <AnMaster> ehird, google image search yielded this: http://o0l0o.org/images/Bildschirmfoto_fsl_new.png not sure if that is enabled or disabled
20:55:43 <oklopol> i'm not sure i'd want to do that indefinitely though.
20:56:12 <AnMaster> ehird, also this http://puntium.smugmug.com/photos/183993189_f7waP-S.jpg
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20:56:48 <ehird> enabled or disabled?
20:56:59 <ehird> that looks nice, though
20:57:02 <AnMaster> ehird, the latter I think is both side by side
20:58:55 <ehird> no subpixel rendering
20:59:01 <ehird> seems to do the trick to a degree
20:59:06 * Sgeo wants the IRTC back
20:59:09 <ehird> I'd prefer subpixel ofc, but oh well
20:59:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you could build your own
20:59:27 <AnMaster> # Bytecodes and subpixel hinting supports are patented
20:59:27 <AnMaster> # in United States; for safety, disable them while building
20:59:27 <AnMaster> # binaries, so that no risky code is distributed.
20:59:27 <AnMaster> # See http://freetype.org/patents.html
20:59:32 <AnMaster> enable_option FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING
20:59:32 <AnMaster> enable_option TT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER
20:59:32 <AnMaster> disable_option TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING
21:00:33 <AnMaster> GregorR, well both me and ehird are in Europe, so we should be able to use it without issues
21:01:56 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and openoffice includes it's own copy of freetype iirc, so there it is harder to get good looking font
21:06:09 <AnMaster> ehird, now the word spacing that firefox uses isn't the best, but other than that this looks good on my monitor. Settings are tuned to look good on this TFT, which may not look very good on your. But at least I hope it is useful http://omploader.org/vMWE0OQ
21:06:24 <AnMaster> ehird, that was a screenshot of http://www.freetype.org/patents.html
21:10:13 <AnMaster> ehird, also these two images: http://avi.alkalay.net/articlefiles/freetype4-nbci.png http://avi.alkalay.net/articlefiles/freetype4-bci.png
21:10:37 <AnMaster> one seems without hinting at all in fact. well not sure
21:11:02 <AnMaster> ehird, of course it also depends on font. I recommend you convert your OS X fonts and copy them over
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21:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, this seems relevant: http://www.beranger.org/index.php?page=3k&fullarticle=2150
21:24:23 <AnMaster> as well as the other links I pasted before you returned
21:24:33 <AnMaster> but your bouncer handles that iirc?
21:25:14 <ehird> [20:59] <AnMaster> ehird, well, you could build your own
21:25:28 <ehird> I will literally build my own
21:25:30 <ehird> when my OS is done
21:25:37 <AnMaster> ehird, it is simply a stupid "apple has patents in US" issue
21:25:54 <AnMaster> patents often cause problems for great linux stuff
21:25:56 <ehird> i hate software patents
21:26:15 <AnMaster> like that recent "apply kernel security patches without reboot" : scrapped due to MS patents covering it
21:26:20 <ehird> i can understand why a company would take them out in the current corporateosphere, but they shouldn't even exist
21:26:43 <ehird> http://omploader.org/vMWE0OQ <-- the text here looks very thin
21:26:48 <ehird> almost as if some bit sare missing
21:27:14 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, well I found that readable on my screen, but it is pretty low DPI
21:27:23 <ehird> AnMaster: I have like 120dpi or something ridiculous here
21:27:25 <ehird> also, that bci.png...
21:27:29 <ehird> the text isn't even antialiased...
21:27:37 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc I have around 100 DPI
21:27:51 <AnMaster> ehird, and yeah, no clue about that, the original page didn't exist
21:27:51 <ehird> more than most people
21:28:05 <AnMaster> ehird, actually 98 DPI I think
21:28:27 <AnMaster> anyway I *do* use the byte code interpreter
21:28:40 <AnMaster> because without it, yeah awful
21:29:36 <ehird> http://macprolinux.blogspot.com/2008/04/fan-control-python-script-for-8-core.html hmm
21:29:48 <AnMaster> ehird, also there is a lack of free fonts yes, at least you can get some "not as bad as bitmapped helvetica" by getting ms corefonts (yes this means MS fonts, but trust me, bitmapped helvetica or courier is worse)
21:30:03 <ehird> I'll probably just nick Helvetica from os x or something
21:30:16 <ehird> since non-os x helveticas are worse, as a rule
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21:30:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to convert .dfont -> .ttf
21:30:45 <ehird> I know, I used it to give some fonts to you
21:31:06 <ehird> psygnisfive: I agree, but keep the flamebait down, I'm installing linux to see how it's progressed
21:31:12 <AnMaster> ehird, normally I tend to use bitstream vera sans mono since I think that variable width sucks for programming
21:31:20 <ehird> I use Monaco for programming
21:31:22 <psygnisfive> ive heard good things about the new ubuntus
21:31:23 <AnMaster> and for writing documents: LaTeX
21:31:45 <ehird> computer modern is rather unmonospaced.
21:31:50 <ehird> psygnisfive: I'm using kubuntu with the new kde 4.2
21:31:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I said for writing documents
21:32:01 <ehird> it's pretty, at least
21:32:16 <ehird> he would, he's a free culture weenie
21:32:24 <psygnisfive> ive got no idea what makes kubuntu k-ified
21:32:38 <ehird> kubuntu = ubuntu - gnome + kde
21:33:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and there is a outline version, type1 iirc: Latin Modern
21:33:20 <AnMaster> ehird, hm btw is kubuntu KDE 4?
21:33:35 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, kde 4.1, but I added the -proposed repository to upgrade to kde 4.2
21:33:41 <ehird> 4.2 is much nicer than 4.1
21:33:47 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, I'm still on KDE 3.5.x
21:33:51 <ehird> and blows 4.0 out of the water, although I only have ais523's anecdotes about 4.0 to go on
21:33:58 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd say 4.2 is a definite improvemen
21:34:05 <ehird> they've nicked quite a lot from os x :P
21:34:19 <ehird> psygnisfive: they don't exist because blackbox and enlightenment are both crap
21:34:24 <AnMaster> ehird, well gentoo devs say they will support KDE 3.x "for quite a while at least, considering how bad KDE 4 is still"
21:34:39 <ehird> AnMaster: kde 4.2 just came out like last month.
21:34:41 <AnMaster> ehird, quote from memory, comment about KDE 4.2-alpha
21:34:52 <ehird> psygnisfive: LOL, no, if you want extreme minimalism try dwm
21:35:01 <ehird> AnMaster: no, final
21:35:04 <ehird> psygnisfive: google it, foo
21:35:15 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, well gentoo devs say they will support KDE 3.x "for quite a while at least, considering how bad KDE 4 is still"
21:35:31 <AnMaster> it was about 4.2-(pre|beta|alpha|whatever)
21:35:43 <ehird> gentoo devs tend to be a bit ridiculous in my experience
21:35:48 <ehird> (i.e.: biased and irritating)
21:36:16 <ehird> ion is lol, the author is a douchebag
21:36:27 <ehird> "I'm switching to windows and releasing ion as closed source in future!" "Err, disregard that"
21:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well I really haven't had much to do with them, yeah I know there has been some internal fights stuff, but how do you know there haven't been any internal fights at apple?
21:36:40 <AnMaster> and why do you care about that, as long as the product works
21:36:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't because I don't have contact with more than a few apple devs :P
21:36:53 <ehird> also, you used a gentoo dev as an authoritative opinion
21:36:59 <ehird> psygnisfive: no, the author of ion would never admit to sucking cocks.
21:37:02 <ehird> he's too self-centered. :P
21:37:17 <evenant> can there even be such thing as an authoritative opinion? :)
21:37:26 <ehird> evenant: duh, the government!
21:37:32 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I just told you what one of the kde maintainers said, he also said that gentoo would probably aim for KDE 4.3 heh
21:37:53 <psygnisfive> why do you dislike bbwm and enlightenment, ehird?
21:38:07 <ehird> enlightenment is just bloated and boring, + pointless eye candy
21:38:14 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I have considered trying awesome wm if KDE 4.x doesn't improve
21:38:29 <ehird> blackbox is 99% "omg so 1337" and 1% actual usability.
21:38:38 <psygnisfive> right but what do you find bloated and pointless eye candy?
21:38:38 <ehird> "IF THE TEXT IS SMALLER IT'S MORE MINIMALIST"
21:38:43 <ehird> psygnisfive: have you _used_ e17?
21:38:45 <AnMaster> ehird, xfce? (did I miss you passing over that?)
21:38:51 <ehird> AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right
21:38:51 <evenant> isn't that the point of linux? :P
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21:39:00 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, you mean with features?
21:39:53 <AnMaster> ehird, for example I was trying to print from a Gnome program recently, except there seemed to be no where to set "A4" instead of "letter"
21:40:09 <psygnisfive> mm. you're right. im now reminded of the excessive silliness that people design for E themes
21:40:23 <AnMaster> one good thing: You could be sure it wasn't there, it wasn't like you could have missed it, too few options around for that...
21:40:29 <ehird> AnMaster: what context is this?
21:40:40 <psygnisfive> whenever i used enlightenment i used the very simple themes
21:40:43 <AnMaster> in kde if you couldn't find it you wouldn't know if it was hidden somewhere between all the other options
21:40:51 <AnMaster> ehird, gnome application printing dialog
21:40:57 <AnMaster> it is shared between gnome apps
21:41:04 <ehird> what are you replying to?
21:41:09 <ehird> something I said? what?
21:41:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right
21:41:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, oh, you mean with features?
21:41:17 <ehird> that makes no sense to me
21:41:18 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, for example I was trying to print from a Gnome program recently, except there seemed to be no where to set "A4" instead of "letter"
21:41:25 <ehird> [21:41] <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: xfce is basically gnome done right
21:41:26 <ehird> [21:41] <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, oh, you mean with features?
21:41:28 <ehird> could you rephrase your line there?
21:41:40 <oklopol> i think AnMaster was being perfectly clear
21:41:46 <AnMaster> ehird, basically I'm saying my main problem with gnome is that they seem to remove options all the time
21:41:55 <AnMaster> they are trying to make a fool proof GUI
21:41:59 <ehird> I'm all for removing features, but gnome is just run by idiots
21:42:08 <ehird> if you ever want to use gnome, use xfce instead
21:42:10 <oklopol> maybe you needed to not know know what you're talking about to get it.
21:42:12 <AnMaster> Gnome in 2020 will have two buttons
21:42:15 <ehird> it's exactly the same except it works.
21:42:30 <ehird> AnMaster: "Switch to xfce" "Turn off computer"
21:42:38 <ehird> they do the same, just one switches to xfce first
21:42:48 <ehird> and the other would switch to xfce after turning off your computer, but it can't do anything while it's off
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21:43:30 <AnMaster> second prediction: In 2020 KDE will require 16 GB RAM. Firefox will require n + 25 GB RAM (where n is how much ram you have installed)
21:43:43 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo modprobe applesmc
21:44:05 <ehird> apple system management controller
21:44:09 <ehird> I don't know what the hell comes next
21:44:14 <AnMaster> I see. is that what handles the fan stuff?
21:44:39 * ehird growls at linux. It's interpreting mousewheel-left as right and vise versa. (This is annoying because the mighty mouse is one 3d ball, so when I scroll down I scroll right ever so slightly)
21:44:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that is probably in xorg.conf
21:45:11 <ehird> Section "InputDevice"
21:45:12 <ehird> Identifier "MightyMouse"
21:45:15 <ehird> Option "CorePointer"
21:45:17 <ehird> Option "Name" "Elliott Hird’s Mouse"
21:45:18 <ehird> Option "HWHEELRelativeAxisButtons" "7 6"
21:45:20 <ehird> Option "Buttons" "8"
21:45:23 <ehird> Guess I just have to swap them
21:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, worth a try, but I'm not sure
21:45:59 <AnMaster> that may swap up/down with left/right
21:46:36 <AnMaster> ehird, if you have kernel sources: drivers/hwmon/applesmc.c
21:46:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well I'm feeling helpful today
21:47:10 <AnMaster> from a quick look at that file it handles fan and motion sensor
21:47:12 <ehird> (I bashed it hard yesterday by running into some metal head-on. Don't ask how. There's a bump there now.)
21:47:19 <ehird> also, that's good :P
21:47:23 <ehird> now how do I make it work I wonder...
21:47:29 <ehird> AnMaster: for controlling monitor brightness, I assume
21:47:48 <AnMaster> ehird, somewhere in /proc I would suspect, or /sys
21:47:55 <AnMaster> let me read a bit further in the file
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21:49:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems to have stuff related to /dev
21:49:30 <AnMaster> only about halfway through the file
21:49:35 <ehird> how do you change keyboard layout in kde
21:49:37 <ehird> I can't type a bar
21:49:56 <AnMaster> ehird, in KDE 3 it is in the kcontrol thing
21:50:56 <ehird> You'd think this would work out of the box
21:51:12 <AnMaster> ehird, no I don't, I'm a realist
21:51:25 <ehird> it works in OS X, and I'm pretty sure it works in windows
21:51:26 <AnMaster> apple works out of box because they can ensure it does in advance
21:51:42 <ehird> but yes, apple gain a lot by relying on hardware
21:51:58 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, applesmc is controlled through sysfs
21:52:04 <ehird> sysfs = /sys, right?
21:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. However I'm not sure exactly which file because it depends on what PCI ID it shows up as I think
21:52:27 <AnMaster> if I understood the source correctly
21:52:32 <ehird> acpi pci platform scsi spi usb
21:52:34 <ehird> ieee1394 pci_express pnp serio ssb
21:52:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I might be wrong, I think pci and pci_express is handled similiary at this level
21:53:13 <ehird> nothing related that I can see
21:53:33 <AnMaster> ehird, find /sys -name '*applesmc*'
21:53:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not very used to kernel macors
21:53:50 <ehird> /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768
21:53:52 <ehird> /sys/bus/platform/devices/applesmc.768
21:53:53 <ehird> /sys/bus/platform/drivers/applesmc
21:53:55 <ehird> /sys/bus/platform/drivers/applesmc/applesmc.768
21:53:56 <ehird> /sys/module/applesmc
21:53:58 <ehird> /sys/module/applesmc/drivers/platform:applesmc
21:53:59 <ehird> /sys/module/input_polldev/holders/applesmc
21:54:01 <ehird> /sys/module/led_class/holders/applesmc
21:54:02 <ehird> gotta be one of them
21:54:04 <ehird> now to find out which
21:54:17 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed. Did you try google btw?
21:54:38 <AnMaster> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MacBookPro/SantaRosaFanControl
21:55:02 <AnMaster> it seems to have issues with applesmc too
21:55:12 <AnMaster> "One of these days I'll have time to dig into applesmc to understand how it works... "
21:55:30 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I never had issues like this when installing linux
21:55:50 <AnMaster> ehird, really? I never got a computer with linux pre-installed
21:56:14 <ehird> or received, or owned
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21:56:42 <AnMaster> ehird, the largest problem I ever had was with some old old "winmodem" back when I had dialup
21:56:58 <AnMaster> luckily I did find a driver in the end. But this was back on 2.4 kernels
21:57:06 <ehird> I hate winmodems so. much.
21:57:08 <AnMaster> since then it worked mostly painlessly
21:57:12 <ehird> I had a USB winmodem when I was with Tiscali
21:57:15 <ehird> bane of my existance
21:57:26 <ehird> I'm just gonig to leave the fan
21:57:28 <ehird> it's not harming anyone
21:57:46 <AnMaster> nvidia-drivers sometimes had issues with last kernel, however often easy to fix by selecting another version
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21:57:57 <AnMaster> gentoo tends to make many versions available of nvidia-drivers
21:58:07 <AnMaster> [I] x11-drivers/nvidia-drivers
21:58:08 <AnMaster> Available versions: 71.86.06!s 71.86.07!s ~71.86.08!s 96.43.07!s 96.43.09!s ~96.43.10!s 100.14.19!s 173.14.09!s ~173.14.12!s 173.14.15!s ~173.14.16!s ~177.80!s 177.82!s ~180.22!s ~180.27!s ~180.29!s {acpi custom-cflags gtk kernel_FreeBSD kernel_linux multilib userland_BSD}
21:58:08 <AnMaster> Installed versions: 177.82!s(14:49:55 01/31/09)(acpi gtk kernel_linux multilib -custom-cflags)
21:58:13 <ehird> My graphics driver in here is the propietary fglrx one, I think
21:58:40 <ehird> AnMaster: when I bought this mac you could only get nvidia with a mac pro, and it was more expensive
21:58:47 <ehird> this graphics card has served me fine, anyway
21:58:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I feel sorry for you to have ATI
21:59:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes right, but ATI tends to have issues on linux
21:59:13 <ehird> I haven't really has any issues
21:59:17 <AnMaster> even their own closed source ones
21:59:32 <AnMaster> sure so does nvidia, but they are at least less shitty
22:00:46 <AnMaster> ehird, this is sad, you get more useful hits when goolging for applesmc -ubuntu than for applesmc
22:01:15 <ehird> AnMaster: here's how my text rendering/etc currently looks:
22:01:16 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/trdxnd/snapshot1.png
22:01:20 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.mactel-linux.org/wiki/AppleSMC
22:01:27 <ehird> I've seen that page
22:01:30 <ehird> it isn't really helpful
22:01:35 <ehird> it's internals documentation
22:01:45 <ehird> yeah, filebin does that
22:02:11 <ehird> I'm wary to click on omploader links because it was originally designed as a shock site hoster
22:02:15 <AnMaster> ehird, atm my gimp seems broken, it says this when trying to open urls:
22:02:16 <AnMaster> Procedure 'gimp-file-load' has been called with value '(null)' for argument 'filename' (#2, type gchararray). This value is out of range.
22:02:49 <ehird> Q: What in the butt is Omploader?
22:02:51 <ehird> A: Omploader was originally crea
22:02:56 <ehird> Q: What in the butt is Omploader?
22:02:58 <ehird> A: Omploader was originally created to become the ultimate shock site hosting service b
22:03:11 <ehird> http://omploader.org/faq.xhtml
22:03:35 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway your screenshot definitely seems like the auto-hinter crap
22:03:44 <ehird> it looks decent though
22:04:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I think mine looks a bit better. Could be due to careful tuning for this monitor
22:04:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean apple can easily pre-tune since they know exactly what monitor will be used in most of the cases.
22:05:23 <AnMaster> oh and they have worked with this for ages. I mean apple used to be used in DTP a lot
22:05:36 <AnMaster> nowdays windows is probably used sometimes, but even so apple is still quite common there
22:05:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean I often wanted something like coloursync
22:06:05 <AnMaster> sure there is a few things like it, tinycms and such
22:06:07 <ehird> my OS will have perfect antialiasing. :-P
22:06:21 <ehird> also, perfect everything else.
22:06:23 <ehird> perfect pony providing.
22:06:31 <AnMaster> ehird, be prepared to pay apple then for the patent
22:06:44 <ehird> I'll just invent my own and be a hermit until I finish it
22:06:57 <AnMaster> ehird, with bytecode interpreter I can see no difference to rendering on a mac if I use the same font
22:07:10 <ehird> really? like your screenshot?
22:07:14 <ehird> that's way different to how a mac would do it
22:07:26 <ehird> mac text pretty much looks like printed text
22:07:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well that wasn't using the same font that would be found on a mac
22:07:36 <ehird> AnMaster: I have dejavu on my mac
22:08:08 <AnMaster> ehird, also I don't like how a mac does it so I changed a bit from that. + firefox isn't the best to handle spacing
22:08:23 <ehird> I'm using arora browser
22:08:33 <AnMaster> but I mean for hinting and such
22:09:06 <AnMaster> ehird, idea for future X extension: XTeX
22:09:13 <AnMaster> renders on screen with tex in realtime
22:09:22 <AnMaster> to give you the best possible experience
22:09:36 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it sends it off to an automated professional printer
22:09:47 <ehird> and then automates scanning the result
22:09:50 <ehird> with a high-quality scanner
22:09:57 <AnMaster> ehird, with the microtype package?
22:10:03 <ehird> and maps its draft rendering to the scanned copy to smooth out edges and map up the text
22:10:56 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.ctan.org/get/macros/latex/contrib/microtype/microtype.pdf
22:11:13 <ehird> The application Konqueror (konqueror) crashed and caused the signal 11 (SIGSEGV).
22:11:15 <ehird> Please help us improve the software you use by filing a report at http://bugs.kde.org. Useful details include how to reproduce the error, documents that were loaded, etc.
22:11:24 <AnMaster> ehird, included by default in recent texlive
22:11:39 <ehird> want to summarize it because I can't open that?
22:11:52 <AnMaster> it has been something like 1.2 years since I last saw a KDE crash dialog for a KDE app
22:12:20 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway try firefox maybe?
22:12:24 <ehird> heh, kde 3.5 crashed all the time for me
22:12:27 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll try arora
22:12:38 <AnMaster> ehird, strange what is it with you and Linux...
22:13:11 <ehird> graaaah, I restarted my mouse and now it won't recognize it
22:13:22 <AnMaster> you are incompatible with whowever built the package
22:13:39 <AnMaster> I can disconnect and reconnect the mouse and it works perfectly
22:13:53 <AnMaster> don't have any bluetooth in this computer
22:15:21 <ehird> so, who wants to hear me rant about how computing sucks and my OS would fix everything?
22:15:34 -!- kar8nga has joined.
22:16:26 <ehird> you all do? awesome!
22:16:39 <AnMaster> ehird, unless it is written is 99.9999 % Haskell 0.0001 % ASM and 0 % C: No thanks
22:16:54 <ehird> AnMaster: s/Haskell/Lisp/ and you got it
22:16:55 <AnMaster> if it is written is 99.9999 % Haskell 0.0001 % ASM and 0 % C: Thanks, but no
22:17:11 <AnMaster> ehird, is there a fast forward option?
22:17:29 <ehird> at selected digressions.
22:18:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have two things to say: 1) Software patents blocked linux being great more than once. Fonts, hot patching kernel, colour management... and lots more 2) Apple know exactly what hardware their OS will run on. And they can afford patents. (In fact they own several).
22:19:14 <ehird> 1) agreed there, it's a shame
22:19:25 <AnMaster> ehird, At least I don't need to reboot just because I updated itunes :D
22:19:29 <ehird> 2) i'm not happy with owning patents, but indeed knowing the hardware is very helpful
22:19:32 <ehird> AnMaster: hey, nor I
22:19:43 <ehird> you only need to boot up for core system updates, and firmware updatesss
22:19:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure I saw a mac reboot after an upgrade to it recently..
22:19:53 <ehird> sure, maybe QuickTime
22:19:59 <ehird> quicktime is heavily integrated into os x
22:20:06 <ehird> and is generally bundled with an itunes upgrade
22:20:14 <ehird> i.e. quicktime upgrade = itunes upgrade, but sometimes itunes upgrade without quicktime upgrade
22:20:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I upgraded from glibc 2.6 to 2.8 a few days ago. Recompiled binutils, libtool, gcc, gdb and valgrind after
22:20:27 <ehird> you can do that with os x too.
22:20:41 <ehird> well, you'd have to close all apps and reopen them entirely
22:20:49 <ehird> because just about all of them rely on the kind of stuff making you reboot
22:20:52 <AnMaster> and yes it is possible quicktime was upgraded
22:20:54 <ehird> at that point, might as well just reboot..
22:21:07 <AnMaster> ehird, um I haven't closed anything after that upgrade
22:21:15 <AnMaster> hey I even upgraded X without restarting it
22:21:31 <ehird> it's a different kind of thing, but w/e
22:22:11 <AnMaster> got "psychedelic colour" KDE. I think it managed to confuse Alpha channel or such
22:22:17 <AnMaster> restarting KDE helped that time
22:22:48 <ehird> rant mode turning on in 60 seconds... ^C to abort...
22:22:50 <AnMaster> like on all menus, just after the shortcut info...
22:23:05 <ehird> are you sure? ^C for yes, ^Z for no
22:23:12 <ehird> ** 40 seconds remaining *
22:23:16 <ehird> are you really sure?
22:23:27 <ehird> please use the correct key combinations
22:23:40 <ehird> ^Z for yes, ^C for no. ok, thanks for accepting my rants
22:23:44 <ehird> ** 25 seconds remaining **
22:23:56 <ehird> are you really sure?
22:24:04 <ehird> are you -- user entered too many keys at once. Returning to main loop.
22:24:08 <ehird> ** 10 seconds remaining *
22:24:17 <AnMaster> ehird, then I'm going to /ignore
22:24:25 <ehird> ** BOOT UP COMPLETED *
22:24:56 <ehird> AWAITING FOR USER TO FORGET ABOUT IGNORING SYSTEM BEFORE CONTINUING.
22:25:45 <ehird> AnMaster: PROMPTING FOR CONFIRMATION OF FORGETTING [YN]
22:27:55 <ehird> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/02/19/quicken-online-cant-believe-mint-is-doing-so-well-sends-threatening-letter/
22:29:12 <ehird> AnMaster: am I on ignore?
22:30:18 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, Hm ever considered that there is more than one type of ignore?
22:30:37 <ehird> [22:24] <AnMaster> ehird, then I'm going to /ignore
22:30:40 <ehird> that was qute specific
22:31:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well isn't that the command you use in your brain for mental ignore? If not get new cyborg implements(sp?)
22:31:23 <ehird> I'll wait for the singularity :P
22:32:00 <ehird> We've talked about it quite a bit in here.
22:32:01 <AnMaster> I do know what singularity is in math and in black holes, I don't know how it is related to this
22:32:01 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity
22:32:29 <ehird> Also see http://yudkowsky.net/obsolete/singularity.html (despite obsolete marker, still worthwhile)
22:34:09 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you were an innocent bystander
22:36:37 <AnMaster> ehird, btw what do you think of cleartype style antialias
22:37:04 <AnMaster> on this screen it looks horrible
22:37:11 <ehird> AnMaster: cleartype is better than a lot of linux font rendering, but apart from that, it' scrapp
22:37:16 <ehird> agh keyboard laggy
22:37:39 <AnMaster> well I guess when I managed to cause swap trashing... it happened partly
22:38:14 <AnMaster> ehird, so how the heck did you manage to get your keyboard to lag
22:38:23 <AnMaster> also what made you install ubuntu
22:38:58 <ehird> AnMaster: wireless keyboard thats been trhashed over the years
22:39:17 <ehird> AnMaster: and, ais upgrading
22:40:06 <AnMaster> ah you wanted to try last version?
22:41:22 <ehird> it won't reconnect
22:42:53 <ehird> grah=gah + irritation
22:43:08 <AnMaster> ehird, also I never used bluetooth under linux (or any other OS) so afraid I can't help here
22:43:22 <AnMaster> I use a PS/2 keyboard in fact heh
22:43:53 <AnMaster> ehird, why replace it? if the keyboard works and is nice to type on
22:44:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I never replace stuff I don't need to replace
22:44:15 <ehird> Can't get device information: Host is down
22:44:42 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo hidd --connect 00:0A:95:4A:C6:08
22:44:44 <ehird> Can't get device information: Host is down
22:45:01 <AnMaster> like I used same mobile phone for like 5 years. Until recently my phone had black and white screen and like 3 lines of text
22:45:32 <ehird> [ 5250.154819] applesmc: 3 fans found.
22:45:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I have that many in my computer: CPU, GPU, PSU
22:46:24 * ehird feels back fan HOLY FUCK THAT'S HOT
22:46:50 <AnMaster> otherwise I'll find out what package it is
22:47:02 <AnMaster> ehird, finding out if you use dynamic cpu speed
22:47:33 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~$ cpufreq-info
22:47:34 <ehird> The program 'cpufreq-info' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
22:47:36 <ehird> sudo apt-get install cpufrequtils
22:47:37 <ehird> bash: cpufreq-info: command not found
22:47:39 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo apt-get install cpufrequtils
22:47:40 <ehird> i like that part of ubuntu
22:47:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well I guess you have like thousands of symlinks in /usr/bin from it...
22:48:13 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/YIUplv84.html
22:48:22 <AnMaster> ehird, to change you use cpufreq-set
22:48:33 <ehird> driver: acpi-cpufreq
22:48:35 <ehird> CPUs which need to switch frequency at the same time: 0
22:48:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you will probably want to put it in some startup script
22:48:36 <ehird> hardware limits: 1000 MHz - 2.17 GHz
22:48:38 <ehird> available frequency steps: 2.17 GHz, 2.00 GHz, 1.83 GHz, 1.67 GHz, 1.50 GHz, 1.33 GHz, 1000 MHz
22:48:39 <ehird> available cpufreq governors: userspace, ondemand, conservative, powersave, performance
22:48:41 <ehird> current policy: frequency should be within 1000 MHz and 2.17 GHz.
22:48:42 <ehird> The governor "ondemand" may decide which speed to use
22:48:44 <ehird> within this range.
22:48:45 <ehird> current CPU frequency is 1000 MHz.
22:48:48 <ehird> driver: acpi-cpufreq
22:48:50 <ehird> CPUs which need to switch frequency at the same time: 1
22:48:51 <ehird> hardware limits: 1000 MHz - 2.17 GHz
22:48:54 <ehird> available frequency steps: 2.17 GHz, 2.00 GHz, 1.83 GHz, 1.67 GHz, 1.50 GHz, 1.33 GHz, 1000 MHz
22:48:54 <ehird> available cpufreq governors: userspace, ondemand, conservative, powersave, performance
22:48:57 <ehird> current policy: frequency should be within 1000 MHz and 2.17 GHz.
22:48:58 <ehird> The governor "ondemand" may decide which speed to use
22:49:00 <ehird> within this range.
22:49:03 <ehird> current CPU frequency is 1000 MHz.
22:49:12 <AnMaster> ehird, it is currently at lowest speed
22:49:18 <AnMaster> ondemand makes it run faster when needed
22:49:24 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure why it is hot then
22:49:34 <ehird> keyboard is now connected, mouse is now laggy -_-
22:49:41 <ehird> goddamn, ubuntu. goddamn.
22:50:10 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway stuff like this tends to be not very well documented
22:50:27 <ehird> okay, all reconnected
22:50:33 <AnMaster> who produce drivers for whatever OS they suppor
22:50:46 <ehird> my os would fix this all :P
22:50:59 <AnMaster> ehird, running mac OS on a non-mac tends to be worse than linux on a mac
22:51:09 <ehird> osx86 has matured a lot
22:51:19 <ehird> I imagine OS X on a pc is less painful than this
22:51:36 <AnMaster> ehird, the hardware it works on is way more limited than the hardware linux works on
22:51:50 <AnMaster> point is, apple can fine tune for their hardware
22:52:00 <ehird> this is only the 50th time you have said this
22:52:04 <AnMaster> PC vendors can fine tune and/or write drivers for windows
22:52:15 <AnMaster> linux devs lack this possibility
22:52:16 <ehird> do you want to say it a few more times?
22:52:37 <AnMaster> unless you complain about linux again :P
22:53:01 <ehird> I'm not complaining about linux, just my situation with linux
22:53:07 <AnMaster> anyway fan and ACPI stuff can usually be made to work
22:53:31 <AnMaster> hey I remember back on linux 2.6.8 or so, it used to kernel panic if I rebooted by USB printer
22:53:58 <ehird> oklopol: do you want to hear my OS rants?
22:54:02 <AnMaster> back when men were real men...
22:54:06 <ehird> they're insightful, I swear.
22:54:10 <ehird> AnMaster: what year was that
22:54:34 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure... but it was on opensuse
22:55:05 <ehird> i first used linux in 2004 I think
22:55:12 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and I remember compiling a custom 2.4 kernel and fighting to death with lilo
22:55:14 <ehird> didn't work with my modem so I gave up
22:55:18 <ehird> I think I got it working circa 2006
22:55:40 <AnMaster> first time I used was back with red hat 5.x iirc
22:56:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I did this in Connitx VirtualPC on a 300 MHz ibook (first model)
22:56:11 <ehird> DOES NOBODY WANT TO ENTERTAIN MY NOTIONS ;_;
22:56:23 <AnMaster> didn't have enough disk space to install anything but a very basic system
22:57:11 <ehird> system 7 was quite nice
22:57:19 <ehird> i've only used it like once or twice
22:57:20 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yes except when macbug opened
22:57:25 <ehird> yeah, nice when it worked :P
22:58:00 <AnMaster> ehird, and no silly eye candy like windows going down into the dock like they were drawn down by a vacuum cleaner
22:58:08 <ehird> ugh, I hate that animation
22:58:15 <ehird> thankfully there isn't much else like it in os x
22:58:21 <AnMaster> if you didn't guess: I hate it too
22:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, it still wins the price for worst eye candy ever IMO
22:58:49 <ehird> I'll agree with that
22:58:52 <AnMaster> even compiz comes at second place after that
22:59:01 <AnMaster> and I really really really hate compiz
22:59:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:59:21 <ehird> I think these fans are making the computer hotter.
22:59:27 <AnMaster> heck if I want to minimize a window I want to do it now, I don't want to wait for a bloody animation
22:59:42 <AnMaster> this is not a trial version after all
22:59:48 <AnMaster> why should I have to live with such stuff
23:00:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:00:03 <AnMaster> ehird, really how would the fans make it hotter!?
23:00:11 <ehird> AnMaster: the heat of their operation :-D
23:00:22 <AnMaster> ehird, sure it isn't offset by the fans?
23:00:39 <AnMaster> also um... haven't figured out how to turn them off yet?
23:00:41 <ehird> it's very hot, if the fans are _cooling_ it I want to know why it's so hot
23:00:55 <oerjan> nothing can be hot unless it's got fans, that's obvious
23:00:56 <ehird> yeah, it fails because I have no /etc/fancontrol
23:01:25 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you use pwmconfig to generate it
23:01:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:01:36 <AnMaster> ehird, man page agrees with me
23:01:50 <AnMaster> Since most of you are going to use pwmconfig(8) script, the config file syntax will be discussed last. First I'm going to describe the var-
23:01:50 <AnMaster> ious variables available for changing fancontrol's behaviour:
23:02:01 <ehird> /usr/sbin/pwmconfig: There are no pwm-capable sensor modules installed
23:02:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess your fan is controlled with ACPI then
23:03:53 <AnMaster> ehird, fun thing is it detects some things to change fan speed and even where to read fan speed, but changing them actually doesn't do anything
23:04:11 <AnMaster> and looking at the mobo the fan isn't controllable
23:04:23 <ehird> hey oerjan, want to hear my ranting?
23:04:34 <AnMaster> ehird, it was constant speed under the preinstalled winxp too
23:04:59 <AnMaster> may find some way to read temp
23:05:09 <ehird> Use driver `i2c-i801' for device 0000:00:1f.3: Intel 82801G ICH7
23:05:12 <AnMaster> ehird, it may even be able to handle smc thing
23:05:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it prints lots of stuff
23:05:33 <AnMaster> ehird, see if it finds anything in the end
23:05:42 <ehird> Driver `coretemp' (should be inserted):
23:05:44 <ehird> Detects correctly:
23:05:45 <ehird> * Chip `Intel Core family thermal sensor' (confidence: 9)
23:05:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that allows reading temp from cpu
23:06:11 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~$ sudo modprobe coretemp
23:06:12 <AnMaster> some intel core* had broken temp sensors
23:06:23 <AnMaster> ehird, um didn't it print more
23:06:36 <AnMaster> ehird, did it tell you to edit some file?
23:06:51 <ehird> just /etc/modules to add coretemp
23:07:08 <AnMaster> hopefully that will print something like temp
23:07:13 <ehird> it has the applesmc stuff
23:07:26 <AnMaster> ehird, not fan control yet, but you can see temp now
23:07:27 <ehird> temperature for both around 35C
23:07:36 <ehird> ERROR: Can't get value of subfeature temp3_input: I/O error
23:07:37 * oerjan notes (again) that irssi doesn't mark lines containing my nick without a : after
23:07:39 <ehird> prints the same for 5 and 9
23:07:45 <ehird> AnMaster: it is normal
23:07:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> ERROR: Can't get value of subfeature temp3_input: I/O error <-- weird yeah
23:07:55 <AnMaster> ehird, my CPU is 29 C atm though
23:07:58 <ehird> I dunno what they are though
23:08:03 <ehird> they don't seem to be the cpu
23:08:15 <ehird> AnMaster: my CPU is more powerful :P
23:08:40 <AnMaster> ehird, on PCs you can usually do like "go into bios, check temp, write down what each one is", go into linux, compare temps and find out which one maps to what
23:08:44 <AnMaster> however that would be hard on macs
23:08:52 <ehird> okay, so I have temperature measures
23:08:54 <ehird> no auto fan control thouh
23:09:10 * AnMaster is searching gentoo packages for "apple" and "fan" atm
23:09:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: wouldn't that tend to find a lot of cursing?
23:09:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, pun detected but not understood
23:10:16 <oerjan> "damn apple fans" and such
23:10:40 <ehird> it's not a linux system if you don't have SBCL!
23:10:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, package database, as in searching portage
23:10:51 <AnMaster> [N] app-cdr/gcdemu (1.0.0): gCDEmu is a GNOME applet for controlling CDEmu daemon
23:10:51 <AnMaster> [N] app-i18n/imhangul-status-applet (~0.3-r1): Status Applet for imhangul
23:10:51 <AnMaster> [N] app-laptop/gkrellm-pmu (--): GKrellM2 plugin for battery display on Apple machines
23:11:26 <ehird> * (* 29834923847239472934783947239842 198438712364872634872347682637482163478)
23:11:27 <ehird> 5920403871750233040095493286841638728722288213740963433203084718890476
23:11:31 <oerjan> if it can do regexes, try apple\> or whatever
23:11:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, what regex dialect would that be
23:12:31 <AnMaster> actually I would need PCRE here
23:12:41 <AnMaster> but this seems like POSIX regex
23:13:08 <oerjan> perl doesn't have an end-of-word marker?
23:13:58 <oerjan> i thought POSIX was similar to vim anyhow, at least more than to perl
23:14:17 <AnMaster> eix -cS apple | pcregrep -i 'apple(?!t)' | grep --color=yes -i apple
23:15:16 <oerjan> ok \> is definitely grep too
23:16:03 <oerjan> so eix -cS apple | grep --color=yes -i 'apple\>'
23:17:12 <oerjan> well unless you insist on allowing letters other than t
23:18:04 <ehird> Linux fhtagn 2.6.27-7-generic #1 SMP Tue Nov 4 19:33:06 UTC 2008 x86_64 GNU/Linux
23:19:06 <AnMaster> ehird, this applesmc driver is unusually badly documented
23:19:24 <ehird> filename: /lib/modules/2.6.27-7-generic/kernel/drivers/hwmon/applesmc.ko
23:19:27 <ehird> description: Apple SMC
23:19:28 <ehird> author: Nicolas Boichat
23:19:30 <ehird> srcversion: 25CB42F01F4B61FD05EC33F
23:19:31 <ehird> depends: led-class,input-polldev
23:19:33 <ehird> vermagic: 2.6.27-7-generic SMP mod_unload modversions
23:19:44 <AnMaster> ehird, sometimes it has stuff like:
23:19:49 <AnMaster> parm: scatter_elem_sz:scatter gather element size (default: max(SG_SCATTER_SZ, PAGE_SIZE)) (int)
23:19:49 <AnMaster> parm: def_reserved_size:size of buffer reserved for each fd (int)
23:19:49 <AnMaster> parm: allow_dio:allow direct I/O (default: 0 (disallow)) (int)
23:20:09 <AnMaster> like for the nfs module, what ports to use
23:21:02 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, did you poke around in sysfs
23:21:10 <AnMaster> possible the same directory or the one just above
23:21:19 <ehird> mm, I've poked around
23:21:20 <ehird> not much unfortunatel
23:21:55 <AnMaster> ehird, anything in /proc/sys about fan?
23:22:15 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$ find . -name apple
23:22:16 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$ find . -name fan
23:22:18 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:/proc/sys$
23:22:34 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the stuff for fan should be in sysfs
23:22:38 -!- M0ny has joined.
23:23:00 <AnMaster> ehird, just this file is using so many macros I'm not sure how it works
23:23:51 <ehird> I doubt it's worth bothering
23:23:52 <AnMaster> ehird, find /sys -name '*fan*_safe*'
23:24:06 <AnMaster> I believe it will be stuff like fan1_safe
23:24:13 <AnMaster> and in the same directory there should be other control files
23:24:15 <ehird> /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan3_safe
23:24:16 <ehird> /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan2_safe
23:24:18 <ehird> /sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768/fan1_safe
23:24:30 <ehird> AnMaster: i did find /sys applesmc yknow
23:24:34 <ehird> didn't you read the output? :P
23:24:35 <AnMaster> ehird, in that directory there will be other fan[1-3]_*
23:24:37 <ehird> also yes, a lot of stuff
23:24:48 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/O7ipKO59.html
23:25:16 <AnMaster> replace the ##offset## bit I mean
23:25:25 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:/sys/devices/platform/applesmc.768$ cat fan{1,2,3}_{min,max}
23:25:37 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe lower the minimum will help
23:25:45 <ehird> I'm not sure I want to mess around with that
23:25:51 <ehird> as far as I can tell, these fans are on one setting
23:26:42 <ehird> so only fan3 is more than a tiny bit above default
23:26:44 <AnMaster> ehird, let me check how that works
23:26:52 <ehird> those are fanN_input
23:27:28 <AnMaster> #define FANS_MANUAL "FS! " /* r-w ui16 */
23:27:52 <AnMaster> ehird, very poorly documented this...
23:28:12 <oklopol> guys. is it just me or are you being really boring?
23:28:24 <ehird> oklopol: shall I RANT ABOUT OSES?!?!?!?!
23:28:45 <oklopol> i'd love to see rant about oses
23:28:50 <oklopol> just not specific instances of oses
23:28:57 <ehird> it's a rant in general
23:29:00 <ehird> and also crazy ideas I have
23:29:06 <ehird> (I can't type a bar)
23:29:23 <ehird> mine are better you should listen to them.
23:29:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:30:00 <oklopol> my ideas are sexually meaningful.
23:30:06 <ehird> oklopol: mine also.
23:30:11 <ehird> AnMaster: one just after g5
23:30:16 <ehird> september 2006 intel core 2 duo
23:30:18 <oklopol> are yours gradually approachable?
23:30:24 <ehird> AnMaster: erm, imac core 2 duo
23:30:28 <ehird> also gradually unapproachable.
23:30:34 <ehird> they get more and more taboo. it ends with child rape.
23:30:46 <oklopol> you can only gradually approach that which is close to what you already know.
23:30:54 <oklopol> and mine are lightyears ahead.
23:30:57 <ehird> oklopol: i invented a new type of gradual approaching.
23:31:08 <oklopol> well that does sound kinda serious.
23:31:08 <ehird> it involves making bad analogies to current systems, then outright explaining the radical ideas
23:31:12 <ehird> your brain goes into shock and then absorbs it.
23:31:43 <ehird> 4 orchard terrace, hexham, northumberland, united kingdom, ne46 3pw
23:31:47 <ehird> (yes that's my real address)
23:32:42 <oklopol> so sounds plausible it'd be correct
23:32:47 <oklopol> then again you probably know what i know.
23:33:09 <oklopol> because you're the only source for that type of data.
23:33:52 <ehird> adjusting keyboard layout
23:34:13 <ehird> so oklopol can I explain my os-ly ideas
23:34:15 <AnMaster> oh I guess it is different for ubuntu, probably has some fancy place to do it
23:34:20 <ehird> AnMaster: no, just kde
23:34:44 <ehird> if I'm at the console my objective is to escape it asap
23:34:49 <ehird> probably I broke X
23:34:51 <oklopol> okay funniest thing in at least 10 minutes
23:34:57 <oklopol> "ehird: I CAN'T SHIFT" <<< thought you said "SHIT"
23:35:01 <oklopol> it was funny with the smileys.
23:35:06 <AnMaster> ehird, did you try looking for some apple irc channel?
23:35:21 <ehird> AnMaster: sure, but not linux+mac
23:35:30 <oklopol> ehird: you can explain sure.
23:35:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I heard there was one called #esoteric or something..
23:35:55 <ehird> oklopol: okay so before I start, I have to explainerate the context of this OS
23:36:08 <oklopol> well sure explainerate through it.
23:36:26 <ehird> basically, a simple bootloader and system setup sort of stuff in asm, then it runs a lisp compiler like sbcl and compiles the rest of the kernel & os on the fly
23:36:28 <AnMaster> how fun, I google for linux fancontrol imac intel'
23:36:34 <ehird> this has the effect that the rest of the OS is written in lisp
23:36:38 <AnMaster> and the first hit doesn't have "linux" on it
23:36:40 <ehird> and you can modify right down to the kernel at runtime
23:36:53 <ehird> (you can't modify the asm part but that's just a tiny part, only for bootup)
23:36:59 <AnMaster> <ehird> and you can modify right down to the kernel at runtime <-- you mean hot patch kernel at runtime
23:37:09 <AnMaster> that is what prevented it for linux
23:37:13 <ehird> it's been done before MS did it
23:37:27 <ehird> if they sue me 1) i'm a minor 2) that patent would be struck down almost certainly
23:37:50 <ehird> oklopol: so, not only do we have lisp (awesome) we have an OS that you can hack random stuff in oko-style just like that
23:37:57 <ehird> pretty good basis if I do say so myself
23:38:30 <ehird> Somehow I doubt there's going to be anything new with PLAN9 Unix.
23:38:32 <ehird> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/
23:38:33 <ehird> I installed it once, nothing runs, nothing works, it's very cut down. I think it uses TWM, but with not even as much as Firefox existing, I'm unsure how useful it could be.
23:38:35 <ehird> ^^ please let that be sarcasm
23:38:57 <oklopol> AnMaster: so what exactly did they patent? the general concept of being able to change parts of the os at runtime?
23:39:00 <AnMaster> ehird, http://lwn.net/Articles/280058/
23:39:06 <oklopol> what's the definition of hot-patching a kernel
23:39:12 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:39:23 <AnMaster> oh and http://www.ksplice.com/
23:39:31 <ehird> AnMaster: that's a US-only patent right?
23:39:43 <ehird> then people in the US use the system at their own risk :P
23:40:04 <ehird> AnMaster: software patents are invalid in europe
23:40:07 <ehird> due to recent court ruling
23:40:20 <AnMaster> but I'm sure MS and others will try to change that
23:40:32 <AnMaster> you can't be sure how long it will last
23:40:47 <ehird> anyway, yeah, the lisp isn't an interpreter, so it's fast enough for an OS,
23:40:50 <ehird> but it's more jit-style
23:40:52 <ehird> except ... more batch
23:41:01 <ehird> as in, it can recompile on the fly, but it doesn't do it every line of code
23:41:16 <ehird> AnMaster: the lisp in my os
23:41:22 <AnMaster> ehird, how will you manage to avoid some low level asm?
23:41:36 <ehird> no, there will be some asm
23:41:40 <ehird> for the initial bootup and really low level stuff
23:41:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that can be changed on fly?
23:41:51 <ehird> no, unfortunately not
23:41:56 <ehird> but the compiler will probably have inline asm
23:42:08 <ehird> AnMaster: because modifying bootup stuff is useless
23:42:12 <ehird> you have to reboot to run it anyway
23:42:14 <AnMaster> ehird, also have you looked at QNX?
23:42:30 <ehird> but anyway, a lot of the stuff you might think needs asm might not
23:42:32 <ehird> due to inline asm in the lisp
23:42:36 <ehird> (and ofc you could modify that)
23:42:37 <oklopol> does that patent only apply to computers?
23:42:39 <AnMaster> but pretty sure it is open/shared source atm
23:43:12 <ehird> ok, heretical idea #2:
23:43:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, What you just said sounded very interesting but I'm not sure where you can take that
23:43:23 <oklopol> anyway you can't patent that. while it may not be true, it's a fact.
23:43:40 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i was just wondering what exactly it is they patented
23:43:51 <ehird> AnMaster: the lisp-recompilingy thingy u pthere
23:43:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, ask a lawyer, no one else can read the text
23:44:41 <ehird> orthogonal persistence. this is, very simply, persistence of memory to disk. To quote Torsion's readme: (torsion was an experimental OS implementing orthogonal persistence:)
23:44:42 <oklopol> and how can you invent hot-patching, not doing hot-patching is not theoretically meaningful, it's just a performance optimization.
23:44:42 <ehird> What this means is that you can write a valueto anywhere in memory, [...], trip over the power cable, and then on the next boot that value
23:44:44 <ehird> will still be exactly where you set it in memory. What's more, you can
23:44:45 <ehird> malloc() a chunk of memory, and on the next boot it will remain allocated.
23:45:07 <ehird> so, after a memory-changing operation is performed, it works immediately, after a tiny delay, it's written to disk
23:45:17 <ehird> the same is done for computations: so you can be in the middle of an intensive 3d render
23:45:21 <ehird> **trip over power cable**
23:45:24 <ehird> it resumes like nothing happened
23:45:29 <AnMaster> ehird, that would probably have performance issues due to the speed diff between ram and disk
23:45:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("bye").
23:45:34 <ehird> AnMaster: that's why you wait a bita
23:45:37 <ehird> and do it in another thread
23:45:49 <ehird> all operations just go to RAM, the disk stuff just runs in the background at oppertune times
23:45:59 <AnMaster> ehird, to make that useful you would need some sort of transactional stuff
23:46:05 <ehird> AnMaster: not quite
23:46:13 <ehird> there are ways to do it, but too boring/long to explain here
23:46:19 <AnMaster> ehird, otherwise this will cause everything to break at crash really
23:46:26 <ehird> there are implementations that work
23:46:31 <ehird> you just don't have enough of an imagination :)
23:46:37 <oklopol> ehird: while no current os may support those, they aren't exactly very interesting. you're just removing limitations that shouldn't be there in the first place.
23:46:42 <ehird> http://torsion.org
23:46:44 <ehird> oklopol: those come later
23:46:48 <ehird> I'm going more heretical as it goes on
23:46:49 <AnMaster> since I have not enough of an imagination to know what to google for
23:46:54 <ehird> anyway, so, orthogonal persistence: it's possible, it's been done for quite a long time, and it means just saying no to data loss & computation loss
23:47:27 <ehird> this means you can COMPLETELY DO AWAY WITH THE FILESYSTEM. Just use memory. One address space. Clean, logical, simple, efficient. Instead of the monocultured interface of the FS, data can be presented in various ways according to its type and the best representation.
23:47:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://torsion.org <-- any introduction? Like readme or whatever. the docs seems like doxygen api docs
23:47:35 <ehird> *AnMaster explodes*
23:47:41 <ehird> AnMaster: nope. it's dormant. read the code.
23:48:17 <oklopol> ehird: so stuff to memory persistently all the time, is it a log-structured fs or something?
23:48:19 <ehird> so, heretical ideas: 1) runtime-modifiable lisp OS 2) orthogonal persistence 2a) no FS -- just use orthogonal persistence
23:48:34 <ehird> oklopol: you pretty much just mirror the memory to disk
23:48:52 <AnMaster> ehird, fun fact about this: memory leaks persist until you free them by hand
23:48:59 <oklopol> 2a is a bit more heretical, but it's still something i can't imagine anyone *not* having in an os, file systems make absolutely no sense.
23:49:15 <ehird> oklopol: i totally agree
23:49:21 <ehird> OSes today are just crap
23:49:24 <AnMaster> ehird, which is hard since you don't know where they are
23:49:28 <ehird> this stuff is pretty obvious
23:49:36 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i've said that before and you've laughed at my weirdness
23:49:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to somehow handle memory leaks
23:49:41 <ehird> AnMaster: you can use regular tools like valgrind
23:49:48 <ehird> plus, most stuff should be written using a high level language
23:49:52 <ehird> like, y'know, the lisp :P
23:50:00 <ehird> for legacy C programs, wrap a gc or whatever around them.
23:50:23 <ehird> but I'm mostly unconcerned about backwards compatibility; that just leads to cruft
23:50:28 <AnMaster> ehird, how could you garbage collect the lisp, you would need to mark the persistent object to not GC or such
23:50:41 <ehird> AnMaster: sure, you mark documents you want as kept
23:50:48 <ehird> it's just a few trix
23:50:51 <oklopol> oklopol's useful tip #1: forget legacy code, being backwards-compatible is for monkeys
23:50:56 <AnMaster> ehird, then it isn't full orthogonal persistence for everything?
23:51:06 <ehird> oklopol: i have some actually heretical ideas, but OSes today are so ridiculously behind that you have to go gradually
23:51:19 <ehird> i pretty much plan to implement the should-already-exist heretical ones, then experiment further with the more heretical ones
23:51:33 <ehird> but for your avg linux user, 1-2a are already pretty wtfy
23:51:40 * AnMaster ponders real word reference counting garbage collection
23:51:54 <ehird> AnMaster: reminds me of my tiny url garbage collector
23:52:04 <AnMaster> or why is everyone trying to get referenced in papers and such
23:52:09 <ehird> you scan all atoms in the universe for references to the URL, encrypted in any way shape or form
23:52:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: you mean like ppl coming to your house and observing what you're using and what not, and taking away the stuff that you don't?
23:52:13 <ehird> if there's none, remove the URL.
23:52:19 <AnMaster> and scientific papers wants to get referenced by other papers
23:52:25 <AnMaster> to not become garbage collected
23:52:59 <ehird> oklopol: wanna share some of your ideas? i've probably heard of them but i'm intrigued
23:53:05 <AnMaster> more people know about you = less risk of being collected by the ninja garbage collectors
23:53:14 <ehird> i love ninjas. sexually.
23:53:17 <oklopol> ehird: well actually to be clear i don't consider 1 a feature every os should absolutely have :P
23:53:25 <ehird> oklopol: you're wrong :D
23:53:42 <ehird> AnMaster: yes. they're purely functional, you must understand.
23:53:47 <ehird> no unneccessary objects on them.
23:53:47 <AnMaster> oh no I think ehird's brain exploded
23:54:11 <ehird> oklopol: in fact, my features are only a small step to be considered "decent" by me. i have a very high standard of "decent", "good" is near impossible :P
23:55:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I think in real world, for things to be useful, certain things need to be "weakrefs"
23:55:21 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, this is all details
23:55:23 <AnMaster> or you would only keep the worst
23:55:25 <ehird> the basic idea is what matters
23:55:39 <oklopol> ehird: my ideas are pretty simple, i just want everything to use a unified very dynamic object type. webpages containing pictures actually being just a list of picture objects on a remote site (which you cannot in general detect) and all that. type conversion being a very fundamental concept in the os, for "different formats", that is different implementations of the same concept.
23:55:40 <AnMaster> would never be garbage collected
23:55:54 <ehird> oklopol: right, that's more higher level than I've been talkin' about
23:56:04 <oklopol> ehird: yes, but i'm a nutcase
23:56:12 <AnMaster> ehird, btw you shouldn't use a refcount GC
23:56:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I read some article by jwz complaining about current GCs, but he didn't explain what a good one actually was
23:57:00 <oklopol> always complaining about gc
23:57:23 <oklopol> well when did you mean it?
23:57:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I recall around jan 08 you said that all gcs suck, and you should do it the "proper way" (malloc/free)
23:57:26 <AnMaster> I mean jwz as in the well known programmer jwz
23:57:31 <ehird> also you were basing this entirely on experience with java
23:57:37 <ehird> the channel had quite a laugh...
23:57:47 <ehird> AnMaster: stop ruining his pun :
23:58:01 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I still think bohem-gc isn't a very good GC, but I'm interested in seeing a good one
23:58:13 <ehird> take a look at the sbcl gc, cheney on the mta, Factor's gc
23:58:16 <AnMaster> this is because bohem-gc managed to cause memory corruption
23:58:18 <oklopol> who cares as long as it's asymptotically optimal :o
23:58:32 <ehird> AnMaster: boehm has issues because it's in C
23:58:43 <oerjan> the bohemes never got rid of their garbage
23:58:50 <oklopol> i would probably enjoy making a theoretical os for a turing machine more than an actual os.
23:58:50 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed. So why is the Python GC even worse
23:58:51 <ehird> you can only have conservative gc
23:58:55 -!- M0ny has quit ("Quit").
23:58:57 <ehird> AnMaster: python is just not a very good impl
23:59:07 <ehird> oklopol: but imagine using your OS 4eva
23:59:09 <ehird> AnMaster: those are just refcounting
23:59:10 <AnMaster> why doesn't someone replace them
23:59:11 <ehird> refcounting is shite
23:59:12 <oklopol> i hope i'm as crazy as i am now when i grow up and know all kindsa awesome shit.
23:59:15 <ehird> and because nobody cares enough
23:59:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I agree. So what I want is an introduction to GOOD GCs.
23:59:49 <ehird> the people who would write such things are busy making money off language impls :P
23:59:49 <oklopol> ehird: well my dream is to make the perfect os, and use it alone because no one else is willing to start over :D
23:59:57 <oklopol> (and also because i'm not going to advertise it)
00:00:01 <ehird> oklopol: my dream is to make a modern lisp machine
00:00:06 <ehird> and use my OS on it
00:00:12 <ehird> my own freaking hardware RUNNING LISP.
00:00:29 <ehird> AnMaster: well, fabricating silicon costs millions :p
00:00:34 <ehird> so I'd sell it for millions!
00:00:46 <oklopol> oerjan: you're back? either i missed that, or i imagined your departure.
00:00:55 <ehird> he came back like 30m ago
00:01:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, maybe you need to visit a doctor if you are imagining things?
00:01:28 <oklopol> okay, guess there's no use seeing what he answered to my message then.
00:01:46 <oerjan> that may be for the best.
00:01:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, there was no message. The message was a lie.
00:01:54 <ehird> oklopol do you have a 64 bit cpu
00:02:04 <oklopol> at least i don't think so...
00:02:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: also, it was chocolate
00:02:12 <ehird> okay my OS will support 32-bit then so you can use it :-P
00:02:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, the message was a chocolate?
00:02:28 <ehird> i was planning only to support x86_64
00:02:32 <ehird> and have no 32-bit compatibility mode.
00:02:33 <oerjan> chocolate messages are the best
00:03:35 <ehird> the window dec & shadow of this kde looks like vista on unfocused windows
00:03:44 <ehird> i notice the weirdest things.
00:04:12 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly extra themes may be a separate package
00:04:34 <ehird> the shadow just vaguely looks like vista under certain conditions
00:04:36 <AnMaster> ehird, "looks like vista" "it looks nice"
00:04:44 <ehird> "shadow looks like vista"
00:04:49 <ehird> also, vista isn't too ugly.
00:05:10 <AnMaster> ehird, win2000 beats all of them
00:05:46 <ehird> SYMBOLICS GENERA FTW
00:06:08 <ehird> i so want to splash out $3500 on a lisp machine :-(
00:06:16 <ehird> well, + plane fee to avoid absurd shipping costs
00:06:22 <oklopol> ehird: yay thank you. except now i need to use it.
00:06:35 <oerjan> water color painting beats them all!
00:06:42 <oklopol> "so oklo, i wrote these 30000 lines of compatibility code for your 32-bit"
00:06:43 <AnMaster> ehird, wow: http://symbolics.com/
00:06:54 <ehird> AnMaster: what about it?
00:07:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you can still get it :)
00:07:07 <ehird> they're not making any new ones
00:07:19 <ehird> it's just a lifeless shell of a company
00:07:24 <ehird> but they'll still give you a lisp machine on request
00:07:36 <AnMaster> ehird, really? they have some left in stock?
00:07:53 <ehird> $3500 for the top of the line one
00:07:58 <ehird> + insanely high shipping costs
00:08:09 <ehird> finding the price list
00:08:11 <AnMaster> but question is, do they make new ones
00:08:19 <ehird> I don't think they have since the 80s
00:08:21 <AnMaster> or just sell out what is left of stock?
00:08:50 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
00:09:10 <ehird> the macivory stuff is a modified mac + lisp card
00:09:13 <ehird> less pure but cheaper
00:09:24 <ehird> you'd either want the XL120{0,1} or the 36xx
00:09:33 <ehird> the latter is $675
00:09:41 <ehird> which is surprisingly cheap
00:10:04 <ehird> that david k schmidt guy commented on an opengenera piratebay torrent
00:10:30 <ehird> dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET:
00:10:31 <ehird> Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com.
00:11:26 <oerjan> certainly you can. whether you may is a different matter.
00:11:32 <AnMaster> ehird, oh where can I get opengenera?
00:11:53 <AnMaster> like do I need an ALPHA emulator or such?
00:11:57 <ehird> lemme find the bloggers post for you
00:12:03 <ehird> AnMaster: http://collison.ie/blog/2008/04/lisp-machines
00:12:09 <oerjan> unless you have accidentally got stuck on something, i guess.
00:12:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you need a separate lunix
00:12:29 <ehird> because genera writes over /etc/hosts
00:12:32 <ehird> AnMaster: linux :P
00:12:32 <oerjan> or even if you did it on purpose.
00:12:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well I could have it in a chroot yes
00:13:06 <oklopol> and most importantly, should i
00:13:07 <oerjan> oklopol: do i look like an oracle?
00:13:36 <ehird> quite slow last time I ran it
00:13:55 <ehird> the court is currently saying "yeah, go away prosecutors"
00:13:57 <AnMaster> do I dare use it atm? Probably not
00:13:59 <oerjan> i see. but not the future, alas.
00:14:02 <ehird> because their arguments are ridiculous
00:14:06 <ehird> AnMaster: they're not suing the users
00:14:07 <ehird> just the operators
00:14:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well who knows what will happen in the future
00:14:25 <AnMaster> last I looked it wasn't like that
00:14:30 <oklopol> oerjan => oreajn => oraejn => (rotate n into a c) oraejc => oracej => (straighten j and reverse the end) oracle
00:14:47 <ehird> AnMaster: the only thing in the logs will be you hitting TPB tracker
00:14:50 <ehird> since the rest is totally distributed
00:14:55 <oklopol> isn't that where you got your nick?
00:15:02 <ehird> and hitting a bittorrent tracker URL is hardly illegal
00:15:19 <oklopol> oerjan: oh, sorry, my mistake, i guess i'll have to listen to ehird then.
00:15:21 <ehird> unless you live in oceania
00:15:35 <AnMaster> "invalid response from tracker"
00:15:39 <oklopol> so i guess i'm stuck here forever.
00:15:41 <ehird> give it a few minutes
00:15:47 <oerjan> oklopol: beware of lying oracles.
00:15:50 <AnMaster> maybe I should try some other one
00:15:52 <ehird> should work in a bit
00:16:16 <ehird> servers are having a booboo?
00:16:24 <oklopol> oerjan: would an oracle lie just to be able to hint he did with a metaphor?
00:16:28 <oerjan> if you live in oceania, knowing that bittorrent trackers exist is illegal.
00:16:37 <AnMaster> ehird, as in timed out, error message, corrupt data, or what?
00:16:42 <ehird> AnMaster: who knows
00:17:04 <oerjan> oklopol: quite possibly
00:17:26 <AnMaster> ehird, btw who is that "dkschmidt"?
00:17:32 <oklopol> oerjan: damn i was hoping for a metaphor :P
00:18:13 <oklopol> hmm. maybe i'll sleep anyway. play by my own rules.
00:18:17 <ehird> AnMaster: symbolics salesman
00:18:19 <ehird> same guy on symbolics.com
00:18:23 <ehird> and at the end of that price list
00:18:35 <AnMaster> ehird, in other words he doesn't care very much
00:18:51 <ehird> even if he really cares, he's taking advantage of the situation :P
00:19:36 <oerjan> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_proof_system
00:20:09 <AnMaster> udp://tracker.thepiratebay.org:80/announce == dead
00:20:41 <ehird> AnMaster: replace it with http
00:21:31 <AnMaster> it responds to ping6 but not ping
00:22:40 <AnMaster> maybe ktorrent can't handle ipv6
00:24:53 <ehird> holy fuck emacs fonts are huge
00:25:16 <AnMaster> ehird, change the terminal font then
00:25:34 <ehird> yeah it's just dpi problems
00:37:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MandelbrotOrbitInfimum.png omg ew ugly
00:41:05 <AnMaster> well let me check if dcc is setup
00:42:18 <AnMaster> ehird, try to dcc it now. hopefully it will work
00:42:23 <oerjan> more proof that the mandelbrot set is really a Great Old One...
00:42:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MandelbrotOrbitInfimum.png omg ew ugly <-- nice
00:42:47 <ehird> it makes me want to vomit
00:42:55 <ehird> file:///media/Macintosh HD/Users/ehird/Saved/2009-02/opengenera/opengenera2.tar.bz2
00:43:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well I would have used another colour scheme
00:43:34 <ehird> the belly button X_X
00:43:39 <ehird> AnMaster: yo I dcc'd
00:44:05 <ehird> agh, I guess firewall
00:44:33 <ehird> want a linksys pronto...
00:45:13 <AnMaster> <*status> DCC Xfer Bounce (ehird): Timeout waiting for incoming connection [192.168.0.64:60386]
00:45:27 <ehird> " Must be less than 50 megabytes"
00:47:22 <ehird> " Must be less than 50 megabytes"
00:53:14 <AnMaster> oh and the torrent seems to work in rtorrent
00:53:27 <AnMaster> so no need for your help it seems :)
00:57:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Boggle yer mind:
00:57:32 <ehird> >>> def two(): return 1. + (two()/2.)
00:57:35 <ehird> >>> two = recur_default(two, 10, 0)
00:57:37 <ehird> >>> two_ = use_rd(two)
00:57:41 <ehird> Also oklopol's mind.
00:57:49 <ehird> Finite infinite recursion!
00:58:17 <AnMaster> ehird, nice but what about about it
00:58:40 <ehird> AnMaster: well, can't you see? I wrote a function that calls itself infinite times
00:58:45 <ehird> then approximated its value
00:58:54 <AnMaster> ehird, what is recur_default()?
00:59:36 <AnMaster> ehird, not making it public yet?
00:59:44 <AnMaster> tell me when you will make it public
00:59:51 <AnMaster> since I'm going to be in 5 minutes
01:00:43 <ehird> just need to iron out some creases
01:02:58 <ehird> specifically, a nicer call interface
01:03:17 <AnMaster> ehird, does this work for any infinite series?
01:03:24 <ehird> any infinite recursion
01:03:40 <AnMaster> ehird, using much black magic?
01:03:48 <ehird> AnMaster: it basically just checks the callstack
01:03:50 <ehird> to see if you recurse
01:03:56 <ehird> if we've already recursed N times, return the default value
01:07:34 <AnMaster> ehird, pure python or using the C API?
01:07:43 <AnMaster> doing this with C API sounds trivial
01:08:03 <AnMaster> there is even stuff in the C API to detect if you recursed
01:08:37 <AnMaster> ehird, hm how do you insert yourself in the call
01:08:38 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:08:53 <AnMaster> I mean you need to replace the two() call with some custom routine
01:09:03 <ehird> >>> [two(limit=i) for i in range(0,10)]
01:09:05 <ehird> [1.0, 1.5, 1.75, 1.875, 1.9375, 1.96875, 1.984375, 1.9921875,1.99609375, 1.998046875]
01:09:24 <ehird> AnMaster: the code + example: http://pastie.org/396402
01:09:28 <ehird> @@recur_default should be @recur_default
01:09:52 <ehird> btw, two() reaches 2.0 on my system at 53
01:09:55 <ehird> AnMaster: like foo=bar
01:11:05 <AnMaster> I need to read that when less sleepy
01:11:25 <ehird> change > new_func.limit to >= new_func.limit
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02:08:52 <Sgeo> "Note from Dr. ██████████: I believe I know where all our bandwidth is going at night. Agent ████'s computer privileges should be limited until he either finds a girlfriend or learns some self control."
02:09:13 <Sgeo> They're describing material on floppy disks of infinite capacity
02:09:21 <Sgeo> Why are they talking about bandwidth?
02:09:26 <Sgeo> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-335
02:23:37 <SimonRC> right, pizza-time, if they are still open at 02:22 am
02:25:29 * oerjan recalls this place that used to be open until 4 am in weekends. don't know if they still are.
02:36:17 <comex> like the instant computation machine that you have to keep plugged in for as long as the computation would take
02:36:27 <comex> a floppy disk of infinite capacity
02:36:57 <comex> in the category of a seemingly small flaw making the thing useless
02:38:57 <oerjan> hm but if it could be pre-initialized it could at least be used to solve NP-complete problems
02:40:56 <oerjan> i guess you would need the instant computation machine for that, though
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03:24:44 <Sgeo> Wait, by "instant computation machine", are you talking about my idea, or some SCP, or somethign else?
03:27:33 <oerjan> don't ask me, as comex
03:32:06 <comex> I think it was your and ehird's
03:33:03 <oerjan> that time travel thing?
03:40:14 * Sgeo loves http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/incident-239-b-clef-kondraki and would love it more if he was looking into the individual SCPs, probably
03:47:15 * Sgeo seriously lols at http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/supplemental-report-239-b-192
04:17:02 <SimonRC> right, after that distraction, really going for pizza
04:27:24 <Sgeo> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/experiment-log-447-a
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06:08:58 <GregorR> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/catastrophile2.png
06:20:27 <Slereah_> GregorR has boners for dead babies
06:22:14 * oerjan notes that the truck is disturbing all by itself
06:23:02 <oerjan> also, that catastrophile1.png is nonexistent
06:23:22 <GregorR> That's because it's catastrophile.png
06:23:50 <oerjan> why then does the error message say "moved or deleted". hmph.
06:24:30 <GregorR> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/catastrophile.png
06:25:04 <oerjan> if it never existed, that is.
06:25:17 <GregorR> * oerjan notes that the truck is disturbing all by itself
06:25:18 <olsner> ooh, that scp-wiki is awesome
06:25:39 <oerjan> also, i have no idea what that thing on the stairs is
06:26:40 <oerjan> which might explain why you didn't link it first. unless you have.
06:27:18 <GregorR> I linked catastrophile2.png first because I thought it was funnier :P
06:46:31 <GregorR> http://spamusement.com/forums/images/avatars/173094260849a0f4a14b025.gif
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07:16:14 <olsner> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-360 :)
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08:28:54 <oklopol> GregorR: is it okay i was desperately waiting for that gif truck to crash?
08:30:10 <oklopol> oh it crashes in the other
08:47:55 <oklopol> but not as cute as your precious numbers huh
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13:37:40 <AnMaster> btw how do you write hexdecimal integers in scheme?
13:38:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, as in (define foo 0x123)
13:39:01 <AnMaster> but that doesn't do what I wanted
13:39:03 <oklopol> if you mean having hex in the code, there's a whole well-written section about the numbers in r5rs.
13:39:22 <ais523> hmm... is it 16#123, or have I got the wrong language there?
13:39:26 <oklopol> try 123h, 123x, x123, h123
13:39:49 <AnMaster> ais523, which means it may be prolog too I gueszs
13:40:06 <oklopol> i recall b was used for binary, but i haven't really used numbers in scheme.
13:40:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, h prefix/suffix both says unbound variables
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13:43:29 <oklopol> then i've probably imagined it all.
13:49:26 <oklopol> # is used for all the stuff you can specify about a number
13:49:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, so what about other bases? like base 14?
13:49:26 <oklopol> you can't do that in a literal
13:49:26 <oklopol> also you can't do floating point in anything but decimal in scheme either iirc
13:49:26 <AnMaster> readline::81: read: expected `a' or `x' after #h
13:49:26 <oklopol> yeah stuff that isn't legal scheme often errors out
13:49:26 <AnMaster> but what is #ha supposed to me
13:49:26 <oklopol> #h is not specified by the standard
13:49:49 <AnMaster> oklopol, too lazy to search docs for what it does
13:51:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, too lazy to search mzscheme docs for what #hx/#ha means
13:54:10 <AnMaster> #hx starts a Honu expression; see Honu Parsing
13:54:10 <AnMaster> #hash starts a hash table; see Reading Hash Tables
13:54:44 <AnMaster> "Honu is a family of languages built on top of Scheme. Honu syntax resembles Java."
14:01:05 <AnMaster> ais523, which is the correct way to express "foo mmap()s blah blah" should one use "mmap()s" or "mmaps()"? Or maybe just "mmaps"?
14:03:03 <AnMaster> ais523, would it be "abort()'d" too?
14:03:11 <ais523> it's probably not correct English, but amongst programmers the habit is to write anything that has to be written literally literally
14:03:21 <AnMaster> also if you wish to refer to man page section, would you use: mmap(2)s ?
14:03:36 <ais523> I don't really think pluralising a man page makes sense
14:03:49 <AnMaster> ais523, hm it is a verb isn't it?
14:03:51 <oklopol> i always separate suffices with "'"
14:04:12 <oklopol> unless they are actual grammatical suffices
14:04:13 <AnMaster> someprogram mmap(2)s blah blah
14:08:00 <oklopol> someprogram cu me zoi py. mmap(2) py.
14:08:48 <AnMaster> anyway mmap() makes no sense in python, and you mentioned py twice on that line
14:20:43 <oklopol> i've probably been feeling sick all weekend *because i'm sick* :D
14:21:25 <oklopol> because i didn't realize it.
14:23:25 <oklopol> i feel like shit, and never for a minute stop to think why, i just quickly adapt myself to the situation and start doing things a bit differently, being under a blancket 24/7 etc
14:23:31 <oklopol> but i don't actually realize anything is wrong.
14:24:09 <oklopol> anyway should probably go to the shop, coke probably helps for flues.
14:27:16 <oklopol> ais523: the actual sickness isn't a ":D" or a ":(", because it's not bad enough anyway to actually hinder my studyings. i just find it funny how well i can ignore everything around me, including my body.
14:28:26 <oklopol> (also that "including my body" thing i said that way just so you could ask whether i actually don't consider my body a part of myself; i'm not sure why i assumed you would)
14:28:51 <ais523> your body may be a part of you the person
14:28:57 <ais523> it's nothing to do with oklopol the nick, though
14:29:04 <ais523> I only talk to your thoughts over IRC
14:29:09 <ais523> not the things that surround them
14:29:23 <oklopol> maybe you just talk to my fingers tho.
14:29:31 <oklopol> it's not like i actually actively control thhem
14:29:38 <oklopol> i just let them live on the kb
14:29:41 <ais523> I assume your fingers aren't intelligent enough to make sense without your brain sending them information somehow
14:30:14 <oklopol> well i do admit what i type does go through my brain, but i honestly cannot say which way the information goes.
14:30:50 <oklopol> i mean through introspection, i do know enough anatomy to assume it's brain->hands. but you never know
14:31:17 <oklopol> (err through introspection was part of the earlier sentence, then a full stop before "i do know...")
14:31:28 <oklopol> (nm i should probably do that shoppery)
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15:01:52 <ehird> 05:38:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, as in (define foo 0x123)
15:02:19 <ehird> oklopol: yeah I should have told him to read r5rs
15:02:23 <ehird> it's only like 30 pages
15:02:34 <ehird> overall linux summary: better than before, but still not impressed.
15:03:06 <ehird> also, don't use guile
15:03:07 <ais523> did you get it working?
15:03:11 <oklopol> seriously, i'm sick, this is so weird
15:03:12 <ehird> ais523: yes, I'm talking via it now
15:03:25 <ais523> did you get your wireless mouse/keyboard working?
15:03:58 <ehird> Yes, although it's stupid and forgets it on every bootup so I have to manually connect with a USB keyboard.
15:04:44 <ais523> I think your beliefs about Linux are about right, decent but not actually good, and getting better all the time
15:04:46 <AnMaster> is there no config file or such?
15:05:04 <ais523> it's certainly good enough for me to use as the basis of my primary OS, I think your standards are higher than mine though
15:05:20 <ehird> It's english-decent but not ehird-decent, I have a weird tounge.
15:05:21 <AnMaster> ais523, btw I never had issues like those ehird had under linux. What I have had issues with is ATI and way way back a winmodem
15:05:23 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it's utterly ignored
15:05:48 <ehird> ais523: font rendering sucks badly
15:06:02 <ais523> I like the font rendering, actually
15:06:07 <AnMaster> ehird, however I still don't see why anything but kernel upgrade would need reboot
15:06:08 <ais523> but we're probably looking for different things in it
15:06:17 <AnMaster> like quicktime, is it in kernel or what?
15:06:17 <ais523> AnMaster: turning off your laptop to take it home?
15:06:33 <ais523> that's by far the most common reason I reboot mine
15:06:35 <ehird> AnMaster: like 99% of apps, including the window manager etc, heavily use quicktime
15:06:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I was talking about upgrades, of course there could be reasons like you need to move or such
15:06:39 <ehird> so you hvae to restart them all anyway
15:06:56 <ehird> ais523: it's either too weedy, or so bulky you can see the oddly coloured subpixels
15:07:11 <ehird> right now I have subpixel rendering off, and hinting=slight
15:07:30 <ais523> ehird: ah, does your screen resolution match your screen's actual resolution?
15:07:44 <ais523> I'm using subpixel over here, and can't see the oddly coloured pixels
15:07:45 <AnMaster> ehird, 99.999% of the apps on my system are dynamically linked to glibc, exceptions are probably only: busybox (static), valgrind (own libc) and ldconfig (static)
15:07:47 <ehird> oh come on, don't ask trivial things like that
15:07:53 <ehird> ais523: so you have high hinting
15:07:55 <AnMaster> yet I upgraded glibc from 2.6 to 2.8 with KDE running
15:08:12 <AnMaster> works fine, had to rebuild valgrind and gdb but that was it
15:08:13 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah generally when you upgrade the intention is to USE THE UPGRADED THING
15:08:18 <ehird> maybe wacky linux people don't understand that notion
15:08:24 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I do use it for like 50% of the apps by now
15:08:34 <ais523> subpixel with full hinting
15:08:42 <ehird> AnMaster: and OS X reboots fast enough that you could use 100% of them in about 15 seconds
15:08:51 <ehird> ais523: go to en.wikipedia.org
15:08:54 <ehird> isn't the text horribly thin?
15:08:57 <ehird> and klunked together
15:08:59 <ehird> that was my problem
15:08:59 <ais523> ehird: using which browser?
15:09:10 <ehird> Konqueror, and the default
15:09:20 <ehird> by the way, does Konversation show as kde3 for you?
15:09:31 <ais523> yes, there isn't a kde4 version yet
15:09:32 <AnMaster> ehird, hm that depends, I have seen macs that take 2 minutes from sleep mode, though it was one that was set up to sync against some server at work.
15:09:37 <ais523> so it's not surprising they shipped the kde3 version
15:09:49 <ehird> AnMaster: "Example involving nothing to do with the actual reboot, this means the reboot is slow"
15:10:00 <AnMaster> ehird, reboot takes like 10 minutes on it
15:10:13 <ehird> wow, you can make a system take ages to run if you do stupid shit that takes time!
15:10:17 <AnMaster> ehird: actually, around 1 minute to login screen, then 9 minutes after you hit login
15:10:19 <ehird> you've convinced me. os x sucks
15:10:23 <ais523> ehird: you're right, konqueror seems to screw up the kerning on wikipedia main page
15:10:30 <ehird> ais523: all subsequent pages, too
15:10:30 <ais523> firefox manages it fine, though
15:10:42 <ehird> let me try with Arora
15:10:42 <AnMaster> ehird, what I'm saying is that it depends on what you are doing.
15:10:49 <ais523> I suspect it's something to do with different defaults, rather than an intrinsic difference between the browsers
15:10:58 <ais523> or possibly GTK vs. Qt, but I think that's less likely
15:11:12 <ehird> AnMaster: your example is at best far out enough to be completely irrelevant; at worst having no relation whatsoever to the situation
15:11:16 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have a linux computer that boots in 16 seconds from you press the button, a Pentium 3 with 512 MB RAM
15:11:20 <ehird> huh, I lost like 10 options from system settings
15:11:24 <ehird> how did that happen
15:11:26 <ais523> what do you mean lost?
15:11:31 <ehird> they're not there in the oerview
15:11:33 <ehird> I may be imagining things
15:11:43 <ehird> ais523: what font dpi are you using?
15:11:53 <ehird> the text rendering
15:12:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen that on mac actually.. iirc bluetooth was suddenly gone from mouse settings...
15:12:02 <ais523> which set of rendering?
15:12:05 <ais523> I'm back on Gnome atm, btw
15:12:15 <ehird> gnome renders fonts differently.
15:12:23 <ais523> but I've set my default font to Sans 10
15:12:28 <AnMaster> ehird, gnome and kde use separate setting panels yes
15:12:34 <ais523> and most of the apps here are using that
15:12:35 <ehird> that is not what I said
15:12:38 <ehird> that was highly irrelevant
15:12:51 <ais523> AnMaster: it's me who's using Gnome
15:13:07 <ais523> so unless ehird's remote-desktoped into my computer, then he wouldn't care what's in my settings panel, probably
15:13:15 <ais523> and wouldn't be able to see it in any case without a screenshot
15:13:17 <ehird> if you see some ambiguity in what I'm saying and nobody else seems to, you porbably read it wrong
15:13:21 <ais523> and certainly wouldn't think it was his
15:13:32 <ehird> ais523: i'm actually behind you.
15:13:55 <ehird> I'm also invisible
15:14:02 <ais523> there's no sane way you could have got through the Door
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15:18:38 <AnMaster> ehird, did you manage to get the fonts to look good?
15:18:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Not yet.
15:18:50 <ehird> ais523: I was going to complain about something else. Let me think what it was...
15:19:02 <ehird> (BTW, a screenshot of the font rendering would be appreciated, I'm thinking I've missed some combination of settings)
15:19:09 <ais523> well, fonts are a legitimate complaint for someone who cares as much about fonts as you do
15:19:13 <AnMaster> btw, for me wikipedia main page doesn't look bad in konq (KDE 3.5.9)
15:19:15 <ais523> and I'm not sure what to screenshot
15:19:23 <ais523> AnMaster: does it mess up the kerning?
15:19:34 <ehird> ais523: an application? system prefs?
15:19:42 <AnMaster> ais523, not really, it uses Bitstream Verra Sans though
15:19:50 <ais523> ehird: in Gnome the system prefs are just choosing font and size
15:19:57 <ais523> it's gnome, would you expect it to have settings?
15:20:01 <ehird> er, there's an antialiasing setting too
15:20:06 <ehird> ais523: I meant KDE system preferences, anyway
15:20:15 <ais523> as for KDE settings, I'd have to boot into KDE and I mustn't here
15:20:27 <ehird> err, you just have to run the settings app
15:20:32 <ais523> there's a strange bug with volume which means it blares out the logon sound at full volume even when the speakers are set to low volume or muting
15:20:47 <AnMaster> ais523, huh, I never seen that
15:20:51 <ehird> why would you have to boot into KDE?
15:21:05 <ais523> well, the KDE system settings window messes up fonts for me
15:21:06 <AnMaster> ais523, idea: turn off the login sound in KDE settings
15:21:17 <BeholdMyGlory> ehird: btw, if you're interested, the SVN version of Konversation uses Qt4 (you mentioned something about it a few minutes ago)
15:21:26 <ehird> BeholdMyGlory: is it semi -stable?
15:21:29 <AnMaster> "system notifications" I think
15:21:55 <ehird> ais523: apeparance->fonts, by the way,
15:22:12 <BeholdMyGlory> ehird: yup, I'm using it right now, haven't found any problem except for a minor graphical bug that you probably wont even encounter
15:22:38 <AnMaster> ehird, btw xchat is way better than xchat aqua I heard
15:22:38 <ais523> BeholdMyGlory: have you reported it?
15:22:50 <ehird> AnMaster: it is, but it still sucks
15:23:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what about conspire then? It is a fork of xchat, I heard it was way better
15:23:29 <AnMaster> haven't tried it myself though
15:23:39 <ehird> aaaaaagh!! Stop trying to get me to use xchat! wtf man!
15:23:58 <AnMaster> ehird, should I try to get you to use ERC instead ;P
15:24:00 <BeholdMyGlory> ais523: no, I haven't. maybe I should? but then again, the porting is in progress, they probably just haven't gotten there yet
15:24:14 <ehird> AnMaster: you just authorized your own death, fyi
15:24:30 <ehird> ais523: generally, bug reports aren't appreciated for pre-pre-pre-alpha code
15:24:33 <ais523> BeholdMyGlory: I like to report bugs, or at least check if it's already known
15:24:45 <ehird> I've seen several projects explicitly state that
15:24:53 <ehird> since they almost certainly know about the issue already
15:25:01 <ais523> well, they should put it in the tracker then
15:25:02 <ehird> and are busy with other things
15:25:20 <ais523> certainly when I'm programming I appreciate bug reports even in pre-alphas
15:25:41 <AnMaster> ehird, that actually varies. for example, yesterday a valgrind developer wanted me to try svn version instead of last release and also report any bugs I found in the experimental ptrcheck tool in it.
15:26:02 <AnMaster> while it did fix one of the bugs I had in the release I found (and reported) several other ones :)
15:26:04 <ehird> ais523: uploading a screenshot of awful text rendering on wikipedia with subpixel+full hinting
15:26:13 <ehird> the window decoration text looks nice though
15:26:15 <ais523> ehird: I've seen it too
15:26:18 <ehird> filebin hates arora
15:26:23 <ehird> ais523: you said firefox gets it fine
15:26:33 <ehird> I'm not using konqueror
15:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, did you build freetype with BCI yet?
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15:27:08 <ehird> I'm not going to build my own freetype
15:27:22 <AnMaster> well, it is the thing that will help
15:27:31 <ehird> your screenshot with it was awful.
15:27:39 <AnMaster> binary distros don't enable the BCI because Apple has a patent on it in US
15:27:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that is because my fonts sucks
15:27:54 <ehird> I only have dejavu too
15:28:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you could copy some from OS X and change the settings to use them
15:28:36 <ehird> I'm trying to gague how well linux is doing, not how well linux is doing if I patch it to make it os x :p
15:28:38 <ais523> can Linux use OS X fonts?
15:28:43 <ehird> ais523: if you convert them.
15:28:48 <AnMaster> ais523, you need to convert them first
15:28:51 <ehird> they look ugly though
15:29:02 <AnMaster> ehird, not if you use the BCI :P
15:29:18 <ehird> ooh, I htink I struck gold with some settings
15:29:19 <ais523> interesting, it seems they just ported D to the Mac
15:29:24 <AnMaster> it is just that dejavu and such are optimised for non-BCI
15:29:26 <ais523> ehird: which settings are those?
15:29:26 <ehird> use subpixel rendering = RGB
15:29:28 <ehird> hinting style = slight
15:29:46 <ais523> AnMaster: why don't you like subpixel?
15:29:47 <ehird> thank you AnMaster, I didn't ask for your opinion
15:29:52 <ehird> ais523: D already works on os x, with gdc, but gdc is unmaintained and crap
15:29:53 <AnMaster> ais523, coloured edges of fonts
15:29:55 <ehird> dmd now works on it, too
15:29:59 <ehird> AnMaster: err, you're meant to use a tft.
15:30:01 <ehird> which specifically hides those.
15:30:10 <ehird> that's the whole point of subpixel rendering
15:30:11 <ais523> well, subpixel only makes sense on TFTs
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15:30:24 <ais523> as for the subpixel choices, only one of them is ever correct
15:30:26 <ehird> you have a crap tft.
15:30:31 <ais523> so if you pick the wrong one, you'll see coloured edges
15:30:32 <ehird> or configured subpixel rendering badly.
15:31:26 <ehird> logout login time --->
15:32:34 <ehird> I think there's one idiot developing KDE that ruins the whole thing
15:32:38 <ehird> it prompts you if you want to move something to the trash.
15:33:05 <AnMaster> ais523, I tried all the subpixel style options
15:33:21 <ais523> what screen res are you using?
15:33:38 <ehird> either your tft screen is crap, or you're using a crap subpixel implementation, or you had the wrong hinting settings or whatever
15:33:39 <AnMaster> 1400x1050, as for DPI I think it is 98 DPI or such
15:33:46 <ais523> ehird: so does Windows, about that move-to-trash prompt
15:33:51 <ehird> with good subpixel rendering it is impossible to see the colouring without zooming in
15:34:02 <ehird> ais523: it's stupid! the whole point of a trash is to be able to undo deletes!
15:34:03 <ais523> I think there's at least one KDEer who goes around copying Windows' bad ideas as well as their good ones
15:34:24 <AnMaster> now what works well is: antialias, full hinting, no subpixel, exclude 0-7 pt
15:34:32 <ais523> and with 1400x1050, as long as your screen res matches the screen's actual res, no way a normal human should be able to see the color fringes if you use the right pixel order
15:34:44 <ehird> ais523: or, the implementation is crap
15:34:49 <ehird> or, it's placebo like so many things
15:35:05 <ehird> he tried it thinking he wouldn't like it, lo and behold...
15:35:31 * ehird installs ms core fonts
15:35:52 <ais523> I'm actually thinking about uninstalling those, because openoffice keeps trying to use them by default
15:36:10 <ehird> I don't like them but dejavu sans is very ugly unless planned for
15:36:14 <ehird> the web is killing my eyes
15:36:24 <ehird> ais523: also, it's Qt that messes up kerning, I think
15:36:28 <ais523> well, there are lots of other fonts in the list
15:36:30 <ehird> as other browsers are doing it too
15:36:45 <ais523> and Qt messing up kerning is consistent with my obligations, although I haven't seen enough to prove it
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15:38:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what about kerning in firefox?
15:38:38 <ais523> AnMaster: too much nomic
15:38:48 <ehird> I don't really feel like installing firefox, but it'd probaly be fine.
15:38:57 <ais523> firefox is gtk-based on Linux
15:39:22 <AnMaster> I use Gimp in KDE. Gimp is GTK based
15:39:31 <ehird> joy, more irrelevance...
15:39:45 <AnMaster> I found the comment that firefox is GTK based quite irrelevant too
15:39:54 <ais523> AnMaster: well, the theory is that it's Qt that's messing up kerning
15:39:55 <ehird> er, it really wasn't
15:40:07 <ais523> and by implication, gtk apps won't
15:40:09 <ais523> because they don't use qt
15:40:15 <AnMaster> ais523, yes exactly, that is why I suggest you try something else. Also kerning isn't messed up in konq here
15:40:17 <ais523> just like athena widget apps or SDL apps won't
15:40:30 <ehird> AnMaster always has to inject "USE THIS OTHER APPLICATION"
15:40:34 <ehird> "USE THIS VERSION THAT I PREFER"
15:40:42 <AnMaster> or I use a different font, or I happen to use a freetype with BCI
15:40:45 <ais523> AnMaster: well the whole point of this exercise was to evaluate how ready KDE 4.2 was for people like ehird to use as a main OS
15:40:55 <ais523> which is the point you're probably missing
15:41:04 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed that changes the whole thing
15:41:09 <ais523> I tried it for a while and went back to Gnome
15:41:18 <ais523> I think it's usable for me as a main OS, but Gnome is more usable
15:41:21 * ehird carefully opens tiny hole in body to let out craziness to avoid explosion
15:41:38 <ehird> ais523: don't make me download an ubuntu cd... :P
15:41:56 <ais523> ehird: meh, it hasn't changed much recently
15:42:05 <ais523> it's mostly been bugfixing and stealing good ideas from Mac OS X
15:42:20 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't stand gnome, but I can't stand kde 4.x either, and yes I tried both, though not 4.2, but from what I seen in screenshots and release notes it is still way behind kde 3
15:42:23 <ais523> did you know that Windows 7 has what's effectively the Dock, now, except probably implemented worse and with a different name?
15:42:30 <ehird> one day they'll all just license out os x from apple :P
15:43:35 <AnMaster> point is that the BCI thing is quite similar to the way some binary distros (used to?) disable mp3 support in the included mediaplayer, because of patents
15:43:45 <AnMaster> not sure if that is still the case
15:44:09 <ais523> AnMaster: well in Ubuntu you have to download it separately IIRC
15:44:11 <ehird> Hmm, I should take advantage of my freedom while I have it. Maybe I'll try some window manager.
15:44:47 <ehird> xnomad is a ninja. it kills windows you don't need.
15:44:48 <ais523> I was about to mention xmonad too
15:44:55 <ehird> it's called the bsc. bullshit collector.
15:44:56 <ais523> given that ehird made me install it
15:45:02 <ehird> ais523: I've tried xmonad, guess I'll try it again
15:45:12 <ehird> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=634447
15:45:17 <ehird> BCI IS enabled in ubuntu.
15:45:17 <ais523> it doesn't really suit the way I use windows, though
15:45:20 <ehird> Since at least dec 2007.
15:45:44 <AnMaster> ehird, last I heard it wasn't, but ok... So maybe try disabling it?
15:45:48 <ehird> from another thread, since at least october 2006
15:45:59 <AnMaster> ehird, compile time option for freetype
15:46:13 <ais523> AnMaster: this is a binary distro, messing with compile time options isn't what people normally do on those
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15:46:24 <ais523> although Ubuntu handles source packages fine, people rarely use them
15:46:30 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc even debian has this thing called "source packages" yes
15:46:53 <ehird> well, I have to install tons of crap first.
15:46:59 <ehird> (xmonad depends on ghc.)
15:47:00 <ais523> AnMaster: what do you mean "even debian"
15:47:11 <ehird> ais523: he sees debian as a lowest common denominator.
15:47:15 <ais523> how do you think Debian makes the binary packages in the first place?
15:47:22 <ehird> because, umm, I don't know, it's not source based?
15:47:36 <AnMaster> ais523, yes of course, that was my point
15:47:38 <ehird> AnMaster: you have some fucked up distro ladder...
15:47:53 <ehird> I don't think the biggest ubuntu fan would say slackware is the lowest distro
15:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, not a ladder, stairway to gentoo
15:48:12 <ehird> kind of like the stairway to heaven? I'm happy being at the bottom on both.
15:48:13 <ais523> please, I'm physically laughing out loud now
15:48:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it was a horrible pun yes
15:48:26 <ehird> ais523: you're way too amusable ;p
15:48:44 <ais523> I missed the pun, I think
15:48:49 <ehird> I don't think it was a pun
15:48:54 <ais523> well, I still can spot it
15:48:56 <ehird> I think he s/heaven/gentoo/ and called it a pun
15:49:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well if it wasn't a pun, then what was it
15:49:18 <ais523> that's what we're asking you?
15:49:21 <ehird> AnMaster: it wasn't actually anything
15:49:25 <ais523> I can't figure out what you were doing there at al
15:49:26 <ehird> apart from a feeble attempt at humour
15:49:39 <ais523> this is why I'm so amused
15:49:44 <AnMaster> ais523, intentionally making no sense
15:49:51 <ehird> I wish I had that excuse
15:50:06 <ehird> i'm actually really funny, you can tell because i'm not!
15:50:25 <ehird> i'll take that as a good thing
15:59:50 <oklopol> yeah ehird is pretty ridiculous
16:00:48 <ais523> oklopol: I thought you were a noodle fan/
16:01:44 <oklopol> i like all that tastes incredibly good.
16:03:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:08:40 <ais523> Subject: SPAM: ATM Machine ownership is unique. Try it.
16:08:51 <ais523> spam emails just get stranger and stranger...
16:15:40 -!- dhjkd has joined.
16:15:51 <dhjkd> 1) other wms can't seem to read my keypresses
16:15:57 <dhjkd> 2) konversation crashes at startup
16:16:01 <dhjkd> 3) my fan is whirring quite a lot
16:16:10 <dhjkd> this far <-- --> from jumping ship back to os x.
16:16:40 <ais523> I don't mind you jumping ship
16:16:50 <dhjkd> also, Dolphin is flashing randomly when I open it
16:17:07 <dhjkd> and my fan seems to be whirring more and more
16:17:09 <ais523> I think it's probably best for everyone to choose for themselves what OS is best for them, and it differs for different people
16:17:23 <dhjkd> right now I'm concerned at wtf this is doing to my fan.
16:19:02 <dhjkd> ais523: do you think plan9 will work with a usb keyboard / mouse yet?
16:19:21 <ais523> failing everything, connect up a serial cable and toggle the keypresses in yourself
16:19:26 <dhjkd> Mony: what is the answer
16:19:37 <dhjkd> ais523: good luck finding a serial cable port on this mac
16:19:59 <ais523> hmm... this laptop probably doesn't have one either
16:20:08 <ais523> pity, serial's by far the best simple connection for implementing by hand
16:20:28 <dhjkd> ais523: there's not even a ps/2 port in here
16:20:29 <ais523> if you're messing around with electronics, designing something serial-controlled's easier than the alternatives
16:20:44 <ais523> my laptop has hardly any ports, though
16:20:56 <ais523> ps/2, VGA, USB, modem, and Ethernet
16:20:59 <dhjkd> hmm ... can grub boot from a cd without it being in the menu?
16:21:15 <ais523> dhjkd: probably, it has loads of options
16:21:19 <ais523> I don't like messing with them though
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16:30:11 <dhjkd> I am downloadering plan 9
16:36:17 <dhjkd> the main problem with plan 9 is that everyone who uses it is a jerk.
16:36:51 <ais523> dhjkd: you're just going to have to speed up your implementation of Plan10
16:37:09 <dhjkd> Hopefully it'll be so amazing that uriel dies of shock.
16:38:18 <dhjkd> The most obnoxious plan 9 user ever.
16:38:34 <dhjkd> continually rants about how other systems are imorral and "disgusting"
16:38:51 <dhjkd> maintains a site where he whines about everything from every market that isn't free to the abhorrent act of having kids
16:39:18 <dhjkd> impossible to ignore to boot
16:39:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:39:42 <ais523> wait, why can't you ignore him?
16:40:19 <dhjkd> he's too ridiculously loud.
16:40:54 <ais523> in what forum is he talking to you?
16:41:17 <dhjkd> he's all over the place. reddit, irc, ...
16:41:38 <dhjkd> you can't ignore him on irc: he's so loud that all conversation ends revolving around him
16:41:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:41:45 <dhjkd> and reddit has no killfiles.
16:42:40 <dhjkd> k3b is making my disk drive perform a worrying whirr.
16:44:02 <dhjkd> plan9 time, maybe ->
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17:06:46 <oerjan> <AnMaster> gah cold fnigers
17:06:54 <oerjan> i think we can believe in that.
17:08:38 <oerjan> "Resultater 1 - 10 av ca. 92 900 000 for fniger."
17:10:19 <GregorR> For fniger? Where's MY 92 900 000?!
17:10:28 <oerjan> "Resultater 1 - 10 av ca. 108 000 000 for finger."
17:11:04 <oerjan> apparently people really _do_ spell that bad :D
17:11:38 <GregorR> Is a resultater something that resultates?
17:12:58 <oklopol> no that would clearly be "resultator"
17:13:45 <oerjan> en:result (v) = no:resultere
17:14:42 <GregorR> My attempt to classify the word "result" resulted in an improper classification.
17:14:43 <oklopol> good, was worried there for a sec
17:15:22 <ais523> do norwegian verbs really end in "ere", like Latin verbs often do?
17:15:31 <GregorR> Sorry, my mouth was watering because the healthy human baby truck was driving by.
17:15:35 <GregorR> So I wasn't thinking straight.
17:15:39 <oerjan> no, only those stolen from latin.
17:16:01 <oerjan> also, it's -ere even if latin has -[aei]re
17:16:06 <oklopol> GregorR: don't worry we all think homosexually every now and then.
17:16:23 <GregorR> oklopol: A) That would be pedastry, B) I'm thinking more about cannibalism.
17:16:25 <oklopol> especially when there's babies involved
17:16:55 <oklopol> GregorR: why would it be pedastry?
17:17:14 * oerjan confesses that he considered making yesterday's quit message "I'll have a large one with extra fries"
17:17:24 <GregorR> Oh, I didn't put together what you were responding to X-P
17:17:33 <oklopol> GregorR: are you high or something?
17:17:42 -!- mib_zv88py has joined.
17:17:51 <ais523> hi person who is probably ehird
17:18:26 <oklopol> GregorR: i suggest sleeping, your status in my eyes is changing rapidly!
17:18:36 <mib_zv88py> i can't get plan9 to recognize my keyboard, even if I use a usb one and boot through grub, which SHOULD be legacy-bios-emulating thus exposing it as a ps2
17:18:49 <GregorR> I choose to go eat instead :P
17:19:03 <oklopol> from GregorR the powernerd to GregorR the village idiot
17:19:49 <GregorR> So, a friend of mine and I created card chess.
17:19:58 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_.
17:20:00 <oerjan> GregorR: erm, that's not really reassuring...
17:20:01 <ehird_> ghjkghjkhgkhgkhjkhjkhjkhjkghjhjkjhghjkhjkhjkhjkjhkghjghkhjkghjkhjkhggkhjkghjkhhkhkhgkhkhjkghjkky6y6y6y66666y6y6y6y6yy66yy575766 www5546 w456w546w546w546w546546 56 56 56 56 5 5 55 5
17:20:09 <GregorR> http://codu.org/wiki/?title=Card+Chess
17:20:11 <ais523> ehird_: I don't understand
17:20:19 <oklopol> i used to do that all the time with my friends until i became totally isolated from them when uni started.
17:20:21 <ehird_> expressing my hate for computers.
17:21:27 <ehird_> i wanna make a game solvable by computers only via ai or prime factoring
17:21:53 <ais523> ehird_: you use computers a lot for someone who hates them as much as you do
17:22:01 <ais523> I have to admit to actually liking computers
17:22:21 <ehird_> ais523: they have potential
17:22:28 <ehird_> but they're still rubbish.
17:22:57 <ehird_> god i hate plan9 users
17:22:59 <ehird_> On Thu Apr 17 17:19:06 EDT 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
17:23:00 <ehird_> > rEFIT fails me. Back to waiting.
17:23:02 <ehird_> you know, you could get a pc.
17:23:06 <ehird_> yeah they should buy a pc just to try out plan9
17:25:00 <oerjan> actually plan9 _is_ a plot by evil aliens to take over the earth. fortunately they underestimated the stupidity of earthling computer users.
17:25:04 <ehird_> ais523: do you have a pc that can run plan9? I'm going to come and steal it
17:25:18 <ais523> ehird_: probably, and good luck
17:25:21 <ais523> why not just try in a VM/
17:26:26 <ehird_> ais523: it's not he same.
17:26:46 <ais523> and this is plan9 we're talking about, and modern hardware we're talking about
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17:27:23 <ehird_> http://www.modmyi.com/forums/chit-chat/19007-ron-paul-plan9-contest-real.html
17:27:27 <ehird_> Ron Paul pervades everything
17:27:32 <ehird_> ais523: I've tried it before.
17:28:02 <oklopol> oerjan: don't worry, just almost totally.
17:29:01 <ehird_> i have thi simac and an old Power Macintosh that runs os 8/9, but no pc. I am so stupid. :P
17:31:13 <oklopol> actually i have even made an acquaintance at uni, this dude started talking to me who was on half the courses i was on (which was pretty much all courses he was on naturally).
17:31:22 <ehird_> 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM 9 PM
17:41:08 <ehird_> oklopol: your OS willen be written in oklotalk right? i seem to remember you saying oklotalk was only oklotalk if it had the oklotalk os
17:42:26 <oklopol> it's pretty much built on oklotalk, although the systems version is slightly safer :)
17:42:56 <ehird_> oklopol: wait, oklotalk is _safer_ at the os level?
17:43:44 <oklopol> safer than the version of oklotalk that's just oklotalk. the actual programming language oklotalk has a few "features" that don't really suit oses that well.
17:43:58 <ehird_> 07.11.07:14:10:11 <oklopol> would be cool to get aroused by CA
17:44:16 <ehird_> completely out of context by the way
17:44:27 <oklopol> you don't need context for that
17:44:58 <ehird_> 03:34:15 <AnMaster> hm I just got a great idea for how to optimise brainfuck a bit better
17:45:00 <ehird_> 03:34:29 <AnMaster> probably someone already thought of it
17:45:01 <ehird_> 03:35:22 <AnMaster> my idea is, you can replace ++ and -- with set constant sometimes, for example if that cell have had a [-] on it just before and there have been no loops with unbalanced <> in it
17:45:06 <ehird_> I love anmaster's obvious "great ideas"
17:45:48 <ais523> ehird_: you misread that idea, probably
17:45:53 <ais523> it's more than the usual runlength stuff
17:46:07 <ehird_> it's very obvious and most compilers worth their salt ever do it
17:46:42 <ehird_> 04:52:27 <tusho> this download is going slow
17:46:44 <ehird_> 04:52:28 * tusho pokes it
17:46:46 <oerjan> most compilers are probably peppered with such tricks
17:46:47 <ehird_> 04:53:19 <tusho> thanks for finishing download
17:46:50 <ehird_> 04:53:32 <tusho> you are pretty awesome, finishing like that
17:46:51 <ehird_> 04:57:04 <tusho> hooray
17:46:53 <ehird_> a momentary channeling of oklopol.
17:48:09 <ehird_> 07.11.08:15:34:22 <oklopol> optimizations are rather cool, I mean unless they're arousing
17:48:35 <oerjan> it's the oklons in his brain that do it.
17:48:42 <ehird_> oklopol: why did you say that
17:48:45 <ehird_> i mean it doesn't make any sense.
17:50:31 <oklopol> i guess i wasn't trying to make sense
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17:50:44 <ehird_> oklopol: you didn't actually say that i fabricated that quote.
17:50:58 <ehird_> because I am a scoundrel.
17:51:41 <ais523> ah, I can tell it wasn't oklopol looking very carefully
17:51:49 <ais523> because oklopol writes "i" in lowercase
17:51:51 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:51:56 <ehird_> ais523: i was wondering about that
17:52:00 <ehird_> but he could have typo'ed.
17:52:46 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
17:52:52 <oklopol> ais523: did i use "i" in 08 too? i can't say i remember. also i don't know which is year and which is day in the timestamps.
17:53:07 <oklopol> then i remember even less.
17:53:25 <oklopol> yeah oerjan you can clearly see he isn't going to die.
17:53:31 <oklopol> you need to get a better weapon
17:54:08 <oklopol> ehird_: "ehird_: ais523: i was wondering about that" <<< what this like "i in fact did *not* make that up", i mean... i remember it :D
17:54:14 * FireFly the swat-protected firefly
17:54:21 * ais523 revenges with a SWAT team
17:54:27 <ehird_> so guys, remember when I made up a language where you can put labels and gotos _anywhere_
17:54:40 <ais523> ehird_: yes, and it ended up that you were just reinventing INTERCAL?
17:54:43 <ehird_> i'm like, gonna try that again
17:54:50 <oklopol> then again, i remember everything, even the made up stuff.
17:57:12 <oerjan> yeah like the time you rode a unicorn
17:57:35 <oklopol> yeah that was a lot of fun
17:57:50 <ais523> but it was only in NetHack
17:57:53 <ais523> still loads of fun thoug
17:58:11 <oklopol> what's the command for riding a dragon in nethack?
17:58:21 <ais523> but you have to tame it and put a saddle on it first
18:00:52 <oklopol> that's probably what you meant.
18:01:05 <ehird_> oklopol: so r magiaclly becomes 3 when you goto into the if?
18:01:30 <oklopol> yeah it satisfies the if's condition somehow
18:01:58 <oklopol> cool. you can have declarative "satisfy this" expressions.
18:02:16 <oklopol> something all languages should have btw
18:02:26 <ais523> oh no, this is getting bad...
18:02:27 <ehird_> its less goto-y though.
18:02:50 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:02:54 <ais523> while(i is not a solution to the Reimann hypothesis) {i++}; bar: print 5;
18:03:09 <ais523> presumably you can't goto bar unless it's possible to reach it via ordinary program flow
18:03:31 <oklopol> just infloop if you don't know the answer. all programs can refuse to halt, it's not like anyone's bitching about implementing tc languages anyway.
18:03:31 <ais523> just not if it's inside a loop?
18:03:38 <ehird_> I kind of like not fixing them
18:04:56 <ehird_> grreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
18:05:40 <oerjan> aberdeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen
18:05:41 <ehird_> 06:55:26 <Corun> There's only like 2 people in finland right?
18:05:42 <ehird_> 06:55:29 <Corun> Which one's your house?
18:05:44 <ehird_> 06:55:37 <oklopol> yes, and 4 of them are on this channel
18:05:45 <ehird_> omg the start of the meme :D
18:06:12 <oerjan> meme's are true. that's why they are so scary.
18:06:33 <ehird_> the are true belonging to meme?
18:07:02 <oerjan> i saw potential. i fulfilled it.
18:07:15 <oerjan> aka i refused to fix my spelling.
18:07:31 <oklopol> did you decide to read the logs?
18:08:05 <oerjan> today has been an interesting part of the great debate: are the logs invented or discovered?
18:09:27 <ehird_> 07:16:13 <fungot> optbot: oh :p. i think i've gotten ( lambdafnord body) to ( call/ cc...) ( generate-temporaries ( syntax( var)
18:09:39 <ehird_> getting lambda fnord body to call/cc is painful, you need to generate temporaries syntax var
18:09:48 <oklopol> except if is sucked, then i'd be like why did i make him draw this ridiculous crap and tell you you suck.
18:09:57 <oerjan> lambdafnord for dysfunctional programming
18:10:38 <oerjan> hm wait fungot should not merge fnords with neighboring words, should it
18:10:56 <ehird_> someone said lambdafnord
18:11:09 <oerjan> but they must have said it twice
18:11:22 <oerjan> or otherwise fungot would have replaced it by fnord
18:11:27 <ehird_> lambdafnord lambdafnord
18:11:51 <oerjan> hm would that cause fungot to loop?
18:11:53 <ehird_> oerjan: it was my terminal
18:12:01 <ehird_> between lambda and fnord
18:12:14 <Corun> There's only like two meems in #esoteric right?
18:12:17 <oerjan> it's probably got a fnord defect
18:12:46 <ehird_> there's the paradoxinns
18:12:54 <oklopol> okay i find oerjan way too funny today.
18:13:08 <ehird_> there's "fungot wants to take over the world"
18:13:10 <ehird_> ais523: recall any others?
18:13:43 <ais523> ehird_: well, oerjan does
18:13:44 <oklopol> well there were a few more legimate memes on the topic
18:14:10 <ehird_> "#esoteric is a gay sex channel and nothing else"
18:14:17 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:14:40 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:14:54 <oerjan> that's not strictly an #esoteric meme, since it's shared with #vjn iirc
18:14:55 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:15:12 <oklopol> 20:11… +volimo: oooooooooooooo
18:15:15 <oklopol> 20:11… +volimo: oooooooooo
18:15:18 <oklopol> 20:11… +volimo: ooooooooooooooo
18:15:23 <ehird_> omg vjn I wanna go bak there
18:15:24 <oklopol> 20:11… +volimo: oooooooooooooooooo
18:15:27 <ehird_> i'm going back to vjn okay
18:15:34 <oerjan> they are 4 minutes behind us?
18:15:36 <oklopol> wait that was not very live
18:15:45 <oklopol> yeah it's a time microzone thing.
18:18:38 <oerjan> erm i mean afk, for now
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18:56:15 <ehird_> 10:41:30 <oklopol> but... it should return bottom then or something?
18:56:19 <ehird_> 10:41:53 <lament> "to return bottom" means "to die horribly"
18:56:22 <ehird_> 10:42:00 <oklopol> okay
18:56:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("_now_ ->").
18:57:43 <ehird_> 10:57:14 <pikhq> source ^stdcons.bfm;source ^outs.bfm;string foo! "That's just wrong.\n";outs foo!end
18:57:45 <ehird_> 10:57:39 <pikhq> oerjan: Stop with the Lambda.
18:57:51 <ehird_> pikhq is so hostile whenever functional programming is brought up.
18:59:43 <ehird_> oklopol> ackermann's growth is mean, it grows so fast i can't see the nice big numbers, because they're so big the program crashes
19:00:17 <oklopol> well that is a problem with them.
19:02:57 <ehird_> 11:51:46 <oerjan> hm, i would advise you against that attitude here. one of our resident 14-year olds seems frightfully smart.
19:03:18 <ehird_> 11:52:18 <oklopol> yeah, i know :\
19:03:20 <ehird_> 11:52:52 <oklopol> that's exactly where i got that exact age :)
19:04:51 <ehird_> 12:52:22 <oklopol> maintaining old projects mostly, i mostly design my new language, oklotalk, i'm pretty obsessed about it
19:04:53 <ehird_> 12:52:47 <oklopol> but i'll soon be failing at implementing it :)
19:05:10 <oklopol> i mean that resident 14... thing
19:05:18 <ais523> how is oklotalk coming along, anyway?
19:05:26 <ehird_> ais523: it died to J, then got revived
19:05:34 <ehird_> because oklopol discovered jdidn't do arbitrary precision numerics
19:05:35 <oklopol> it's died to a lot of things
19:05:44 <ehird_> and so put oklotalk back on the todo list
19:05:44 <oklopol> and primarily it's died because university.
19:06:17 <oklopol> although what ehird_ said is the official reason ofc
19:06:28 <ais523> ehird_: why the underscore?
19:07:02 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
19:08:00 <ehird> so, 40-bit pointers
19:09:06 <oklopol> ais523: anyway oklotalk has not seen any actual development after last september.
19:09:29 <oklopol> but that's irrelevant in that no one has seen the stuff developed sofar anyway..
19:10:19 <ehird> 16:46:04 <Figs> what is the point of regex?
19:10:20 <ehird> 16:46:33 <SevenInchBread> ...
19:10:21 <ehird> 16:46:39 <SevenInchBread> to... match patterns.
19:10:23 <ehird> 16:47:06 <Figs> ok...
19:11:04 <ehird> 16:55:49 <oklopol> AND i dl'd cube 2 in french, but didn't want to do the work again, so i watched it 3 times hoping i'd just learn french
19:11:18 <ais523> that sounds very oklopol
19:11:52 <olsner> oklopol: so did you learn french by that? :P
19:12:37 <oklopol> i learned je m'appelle claude!
19:12:50 <oklopol> (of course i didn't learn to type it)
19:13:22 <oklopol> it starts with a chick telling her name, although i'm not actually sure claude is a girl's name, that may actually be from friends.
19:13:29 <oklopol> but je m'appelle was there anyway
19:13:59 <oklopol> anyway i didn't actually miss much, 2 has least story
19:14:25 <olsner> so, three words from one movie, watch 30000 more french movies and you'll know all the words, I guess
19:17:32 <ehird> anyone know a file to play raw audio files on lunix
19:19:38 <olsner> play plays just about anything
19:19:43 <olsner> as long as you know the format
19:22:20 <ehird> ehird@fhtagn:~/code/musak$ play -r 22 -t raw -8 -u musak.raw
19:23:07 <ehird> 10:04:38 <oklopol> i just realized Gamegirl has the word "girl" in it
19:23:09 <ehird> 10:04:41 <lament> we're smart bots.
19:23:10 <ehird> 10:04:45 * oklopol is a bot that penetrates
19:23:12 <ehird> 10:04:49 <CakeProphet> ...
19:23:13 <ehird> 10:04:56 <oklopol> ...
19:23:14 <ehird> 10:05:05 <oklopol> like... metphorically
19:23:16 <ehird> 10:05:10 <oklopol> *metaphorically
19:23:29 <ehird> 10:05:13 <CakeProphet> ...I see.
19:23:31 <ehird> 10:05:32 * lament slowly backs away from oklopol
19:23:32 <ehird> 10:05:57 <oklopol> i'm < 1000 km long, don't worry 8|
19:23:34 <ehird> 10:06:20 <lament> length can be measured in several ways
19:23:35 <ehird> 10:06:27 <lament> i don't know which one you chose...
19:23:37 <ehird> 10:06:27 --- part: Gamegirl left #esoteric
19:26:01 <ehird> 10:43:52 <oklopol> this one day i had this weird urge to havea callstack, but i said to myself "don't you have another callstack, you just had one last week" and i was like "fuck you"
19:26:03 <ehird> 10:44:02 <oklopol> you know
19:27:07 <olsner> oklopol: your weirdness is greatly amusing
19:27:37 <oklopol> ...did that one have a context?
19:28:00 <ehird> yeah, gamegirl came in
19:28:03 <ehird> and lament claimed we're all dead bots
19:28:26 <oklopol> you found an uncorrected typo
19:28:45 <ehird> that was my terminal
19:28:55 <ehird> I TRICKED YOU INTO CORRECTING
19:29:16 <oklopol> no you didn't, i was actually fooling *you* here.
19:29:30 <ehird> i don't believe you
19:29:42 <oklopol> you think i wouldn't remember an uncorrected typo
19:30:28 <ehird> <bobbens> i have two questions about bf, is the datainitialized to 0? how do you print stuff? kernel calls?
19:31:05 <ehird> <oklopol> kernel calls?
19:31:13 <ehird> 11:54:48 <oklopol> ! will call asm INT n, where n is the value of the current cell.
19:31:16 <ehird> oklopol the trickster.
19:31:31 <ais523> that wouldn't be particularly useful unless you had control over the registers
19:31:36 <ehird> <erider> ! is an addition command? I have only seen the 8 commands
19:31:39 <ehird> OH HE FOUND YOU OUT
19:31:49 <ehird> 11:57:56 <oklopol> sorry, i just mislead people asking advice:<
19:31:56 <ais523> anyway, it's easy to print kernel calls in BF
19:32:01 <ais523> actually doing kernel calls might be difficult
19:32:09 <ais523> but you can print them out to the screen easily enough
19:32:27 <ehird> 12:03:21 <Pikhq> CakeProphet: Sure it can (although the *implementation* of such things is lacking).
19:32:30 <ehird> 12:03:38 <Pikhq> One merely needs to implement PESOIX, or something similar, and voila.
19:32:35 <ehird> PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX PSOX
19:32:44 <ehird> (5 PSOXs is the correct way to yell PSOX repeatedly)
19:34:00 <oklopol> "<oklopol> sorry, i just mislead people asking advice:<" well this just sounds like plain bad english. of course maybe my intentionally simplified english sounds like that from an outsider's perspective.
19:34:09 <ehird> I'm sorry to have to tell you.
19:34:27 <ehird> oklopol: that's correct english
19:34:37 <oklopol> although i guess you can "ask advice"
19:35:49 <oklopol> it maybe be the "advice:<" that makes it look clumsy.
19:36:09 <oklopol> STOP TELLING ME THINGS I ALREADY KNOW OR DON'T KNOW
19:36:31 <olsner> are there things you do neither?
19:36:46 <oklopol> that's a polite way to tell someone to stfu
19:37:11 <olsner> you mean, an obscure way, so that they don't realized they've been insulted
19:37:54 <oklopol> that's pretty much the definition of polite.
19:38:02 <oklopol> insulting people in ways they don't understand
19:38:17 <ais523> oklopol: I love tht definition
19:39:03 <oklopol> you can do it for many things, "friends, the people you only insult behind their backs"
19:39:13 <ehird> hmm, I broke my kde taskbar
19:40:20 <oklopol> hmm. i'm feeling a bit too lucid atm
19:41:03 <ais523> it's pretty early for night
19:41:23 <AnMaster> ais523, going to bed early due to flu (probably, or something equally terrible...)
19:43:35 <oklopol> only losers get sick *sniffs and wraps blanket tighter around self*
19:47:44 <ehird> ais523: in kde, hold down control-windowskey
19:47:47 <ehird> see stars go around cursor
19:48:17 <ais523> ehird: Compiz does that too, but it's not enabled by default
19:48:26 <ehird> ah, I guess kde is using compiz
19:48:34 <ais523> also, windows key = "super" in Linux terminology
19:48:47 <ais523> and AFAIR, kde doesn't use compiz, it has its own implementation of the same things
19:51:21 <ehird> [19:50] <plopmania> ehird: it so happened, that oklopol turned 20 just today.
19:51:25 <ehird> note: #vjn, probably total lies.
19:51:34 <SimonRC> http://home.earthlink.net/~misaak/jackbean.html argh, so many puns
19:51:48 <ehird> world ending in soon times.
19:52:02 <ais523> oklopol's about the same age as me I think, probably slightly younger
19:52:15 <oklopol> it was a joke you didn't get for obvious reasons
19:52:22 <ehird> when he turns 20, the world will end because there's no way oklopol could be 20, i mean he's so... 19
19:55:25 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
19:55:53 <ais523> ehird: you mean oklopol will turn 20 in 2012?
19:56:15 <ehird> he'll be 19 for _years_.
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21:05:22 <ehird> http://www.errornerd.com/system-2.php?seed=The-Weird-Smile-Of-The-Dude-To-The-Right-Of-This-Article
21:09:25 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:13:57 -!- chuck has left (?).
21:17:53 -!- ehird has quit ("Caught sigterm, terminating...").
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21:18:22 <ashdasd> I keep committing irc faux pas: saying something in the wrong channel.
21:18:47 <ais523> which channel did you say it in this time?
21:19:04 <ashdasd> I linked to http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/vi in #emacs
21:19:38 <ashdasd> The resolution is to kill my bouncer so I don't see people insult me :P
21:19:52 <ais523> also, the response format for ctcp version is NOTICE nickyourerespondingto :^AVERSION put version number here^A
21:20:25 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-ehird reply from ashdasd: v13.
21:21:49 <ais523> also, pasting that in #emacs was a stroke of genius
21:22:13 <oklopol> i have a hunch he doesn't know
21:22:29 <ais523> because they kicked him? or because he parted in panic?
21:22:32 <ashdasd> yeah I quit it too quickly :-(
21:22:46 <oklopol> "ashdasd: The resolution is to kill my bouncer so I don't see people insult me :P"
21:22:47 <ashdasd> I am very shy round foreign channels :P
21:23:17 <ashdasd> I should just run a bot on those channels so I can spy on them post-quit
21:23:27 <ais523> like you do with ##nomic, you mean?
21:25:07 * oklopol mutters something about ais523 being such an ehird towards ehird nowadays ;)
21:25:31 <oklopol> if the dog starts barking, please tell it to shut up, since it's late.
21:25:51 <ais523> what, the dog or just it in general is late?
21:26:14 <oklopol> so a dog barking would upset my neighs
21:33:17 <ashdasd> god, christel is annoying.
21:33:47 <ashdasd> can't she just get to the point with the bloomin' notices to every-freaking-one instead of inserting rubbish jokes every 3 words
21:37:19 <ashdasd> When i googled for something and found entire transcripts of #emacs, i was appalled and stopped joining #emacs. This stinks of Big Brother. when i write on this wiki, i expect it to be publicly available. but i was naive enough to think that an irc session would be too transient to get indexed. my mistake, but it wonb
21:37:45 <ais523> with all the people who could be logging, one probably will be
21:39:09 <ashdasd> I should set up a sekrit channel logging bot and have it go in all channels it finds.
21:39:41 <ais523> ashdasd: Freenode will very ban you if you do that
21:39:44 <ais523> and I'll agree with them
21:39:58 <ashdasd> i'll claim to have accidentally let the log directory open.
21:40:20 <ais523> they ought not to believe you
21:40:24 <ais523> given your track record, at least
21:40:32 <ashdasd> they won't know it's me. tor.
21:41:12 <ais523> does tor even work on freenode?
21:41:32 <ashdasd> plus, linking the logs to the bot would be near-impossible. it'd pose as human.
21:41:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:44:03 <lament> you realize people have already done exactly that
21:44:46 <lament> but there was a huge scandal
21:44:56 <ashdasd> that's only because people found out,.
21:45:05 <ashdasd> there are so many idlers on IRC.
21:45:16 <lament> yes, which is why i'm saying people have already done that
21:45:32 <ashdasd> if there was a scandal, the performers are crap.
21:46:13 <lament> their site doesn't even come up in search for irc log
21:46:25 <lament> so i assume they phailed completely afterwards
21:48:11 -!- ehird has joined.
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21:49:01 <ais523> ehird: your bouncer's reworking?
21:49:09 <ehird> It never broke, I killed it to exit #emacs.
21:49:27 <ais523> I thought Freenode had banned it?
21:49:28 <ehird> I couldn't just part as I Cmd-Q'd my client immediately.
21:49:37 <ehird> ais523: ermm, when?
21:49:43 <ehird> well yeah, they did then...
21:49:50 <ehird> surely you've seen me on it since then?
21:50:05 <ehird> ... which, by the way, expires today
21:52:40 <ehird> http://alpha61.com/primenumbershittingbear/ it's back!
21:53:31 <ais523> ehird: how long do you think it'll be squatted for once it expires?
21:53:42 <ehird> ais523: I doubt it will be squatted
21:54:04 <ais523> maybe I'll start up my own ESO some time
21:54:11 <ehird> who said ESO died?
21:54:11 <ais523> running under ais523 principles rather than ehird principles
21:54:16 <ais523> it might actually get something done that way
21:54:25 <ais523> and ESO has been effectively dead forever, because it's never done anything
21:54:32 <ais523> other than argue about what sort of markup to use
21:54:36 <ehird> actually, eso-1 got pretty far.
21:54:56 <ehird> ais523: http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/
21:55:32 <ehird> had a number of famous people
21:55:33 <ehird> <Egy> Ørjan Johansen, from the Norwegian language
21:55:33 <ehird> <Kett?> Panu Kalliokoski, from the Finnish language
21:55:33 <ehird> <Három> Gerson Kurz, from the German language
21:55:33 <ehird> <Nyelv> Chris Pressey, from the Canadian language
21:55:38 <ehird> i started eso because I like bikeshedding
21:55:57 <ais523> http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.0.txt hahaha
21:56:14 <ehird> http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.3.txt Real standard
21:57:47 <ais523> nah, they're all jokes I think
21:58:03 <ehird> erm, http://esoteric.sange.fi/ENSI/brainfuck-1.3.txt is pretty serious
21:58:18 <ehird> not very, but it's a usable setandard
21:58:26 <ais523> it doesn't even address the EOF problem
21:58:41 <ais523> it insists on a truly semi-infinite tape
22:07:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
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22:09:04 <ais523> by the way, does anyone here know why vertical tabs?
22:09:16 <ehird> I like vertical tabs
22:10:28 <oerjan> i imagine if you were filling out a lot of them on a typewriter, vertical tabs would be nice
22:10:37 <ais523> that was Wikipedia's idea
22:10:53 <oerjan> and also if you print on form letters
22:11:43 -!- jix has quit ("...").
22:11:58 <olsner> "his body's shutting down" ... blah, do they really say that? is that actually a meaningful metaphor for some medical condition?
22:12:53 <ais523> a body rebooting would be weird
22:13:08 <olsner> "*** Body going down for reboot NOW"
22:14:09 <oerjan> sleep is just the body's fsck
22:14:26 <olsner> "I'm sorry, she's going to runlevel 0, there's nothing we can do except bring her down gracefully"
22:17:59 <oerjan> <oklopol> i learned je m'appelle claude!
22:18:12 <oerjan> je m'appelle tres bien aussi
22:18:21 <ehird> there should be a language with no points at all
22:18:26 <ehird> function composition, no variables
22:18:28 <ais523> oerjan: "I am also called very well"?
22:18:32 <ehird> do not say ski calculus
22:18:36 <ehird> for I will rip your brain out
22:19:04 <oerjan> ais523: "i call myself", technically
22:19:17 <ais523> sorry, it's 10pm and I'm not thinking straight
22:19:38 <ais523> oerjan: so in other words, you think you have a good name?
22:19:54 <oerjan> ais523: you're overanalyzing
22:20:22 <oerjan> it's just a nonsense phrase i remember from somewhere
22:22:34 <oerjan> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP_programming_language ?
22:22:46 <ehird> is it impossible to add holes to FP?
22:23:16 <ehird> "⊥ is the undefined value, or bottom" <- lame.
22:24:01 <oerjan> ehird: um every tc functional language has bottom, why not name it?
22:24:15 <ehird> turing completeness sux :P
22:25:06 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/545/
22:25:59 <ais523> if that ever happened, I think it would be a fairly good bet that the article would be protected
22:26:05 <ehird> to which word count? :-D
22:26:15 <ais523> probably there'd be a wheel war
22:26:20 <ehird> I'd lobby it for deletion
22:26:23 <ehird> to see what happens
22:26:26 <ais523> then it would have an even word count
22:26:28 <ais523> due to having no words
22:26:38 <ais523> I think it would be more fun to leave the number of words ambiguous
22:26:38 <ehird> ais523: does a deleted article exist? no
22:26:41 <ehird> it can't have a set of words
22:26:41 <ais523> say by adding in a nbdp
22:26:44 <ehird> there is no such set
22:26:50 <ais523> and apostrophised words
22:27:01 <ehird> ais523: therefore, hatman must give the money to ** Exception: undefined
22:27:14 <oerjan> ais523: does wp have templates that can depend on who's watching it? (probably)
22:28:06 <ais523> oerjan: no, although the feature's been requested every now and then
22:28:12 <ais523> the problem is caching
22:28:21 <ais523> you can use CSS to depend on which skin they use
22:28:39 <ais523> or do things that change every time the article's refreshed
22:28:46 <ais523> that's what they did on the US presedential election day
22:28:54 <ais523> they set up the Main Page to show featured articles about both candidates
22:29:09 <ais523> but the order depended on when the page had last been purged, and it's purged quite a lot
22:29:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:32:16 <ehird> http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3503/xkcdhybridka3.png
22:33:09 <ehird> I like pie <blink>lots</blink>
22:35:29 <oerjan> i see a lot of pie blinking out of existence
22:35:49 * oerjan scares FireFly with the swatter, but without hitting -----###
22:36:18 * FireFly scares oerjan with jokes about norwegian people, but without telling any.
22:37:24 <ehird> http://www.bbspot.com/News/2007/10/xkcd-comic-reenactment-leads-to-100-deaths.html
22:37:53 <ehird> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35035#p1388172 <-- haha
22:38:37 <oklopol> "Once something is on the web, it's there forever," said xkcd fan Marlon Hatcher. "I can't wait to go to the next meetup in San Francisco and kill myself with other fans."
22:39:05 <ais523> I hope that news story isn't real
22:39:10 <ais523> if it is, the journalism on it is rubbish
22:39:22 <ehird> they're the geek onion
22:39:49 <ais523> I tend not to find fake newspapers particularly amusing
22:40:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
22:41:11 <ehird> also, I fully support http://www.everytopicintheuniverseexceptchickens.com/
22:42:06 <ais523> what does it typically discuss?
22:42:27 * ais523 wonders if there's a http://www.thebestpageintheuniverseexceptchickens.com
22:42:38 <ehird> it's about wikipedia
22:42:52 <ehird> by the guy who writes dinosaur comics
22:42:56 <ehird> and wrote Jokes Explained
22:43:16 <ais523> which link, yours or mine?
22:45:17 <ehird> "On August 17, 2007, the Spanish TVE2 ("La 2") public T.V. channel vandalised the Spanish article on John Lennon in the 2:30 news program, just for the sake of making a story"
22:45:56 -!- Robdgreat has joined.
22:47:40 <ehird> Yo dawg, I heard you like fractals so I put a sierpinski gasket in your sierpinski gasket so you can triangle while you triangle
22:47:53 <ais523> where does the yo dawg thing come from?
22:48:01 <ais523> what started the meme? what was the original phrase?
22:48:07 <ehird> allow me to link you
22:48:39 <ehird> tl;dr: Xzibit is a rapper. He has a show on MTV, "Pimp My Ride".
22:48:50 <ehird> They put stupid shit in cars behind people's backs relating to their interests.
22:49:00 <ehird> "Yo dawg, I heard you like X so we put an X-thing in your car so you can X while you drive."
22:49:07 <ehird> This was then generalized
22:49:36 <oerjan> also, some nitpickers point out it's supposedly "Sup dawg"
22:49:48 <ehird> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/d6/Yoyoyodawg.jpg
22:50:48 <oerjan> also, i don't visit that site any more.
22:51:06 <ais523> that general website isn't, though
22:51:19 <ais523> it's quite possibly blocked, and you get in trouble for setting off the blocker
22:51:28 <ehird> er, blocked where?
22:51:32 <ehird> you mean at work/school?
22:51:46 <ehird> if oerjan is at one of those right now, his schedule is fucked up
22:51:57 <ehird> although indeed makes sense for you
22:52:02 <ais523> I've already set it off once and had to explain
22:52:10 <ais523> for some bizarre reason, they blocked the text of the X11 licence
22:52:28 <oerjan> i just don't _like_ watching semi-porn while i am trying to read about something completely different
22:52:52 <ehird> i said that image was sfw.
22:53:00 <ehird> but yes, the ads are annoying.
22:53:01 <ehird> ais523: haha, how the heck did they question you?
22:53:02 <oerjan> ehird: and indeed it was
22:53:08 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi.
22:53:10 <ehird> "WHY DID YOU VIEW THE x11 LICENSE? HAVE YOU NO MORALS?!?!?"
22:53:22 <ehird> "...THE GPL IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE LICENSE!"
22:53:48 <ais523> ehird: well, I sent an apologetic email explaining that I had no idea it was blocked until I hit the filter
22:54:00 <ehird> did they question you first, though?
22:54:04 <ais523> luckily, I'm friends with the people who administer the thing (who don't like it either0
22:54:10 <ehird> i wanna know what the heck they said :D
22:54:11 <ais523> ehird: it's automated, a big scary red messaeg
22:54:23 <ehird> web filters are so ridiculous
22:54:30 <ehird> trivial to get around and annoy legitimate users
22:54:43 <ais523> I used to go around the filter a lot, because the filter server kept crashing
22:54:59 <ais523> and so I couldn't even access email until I turned the thing off
22:55:07 <ais523> however, nowadays it's a lot more reliable, so I go through it
22:55:14 <ais523> also they blocked the exploit I used to use
22:55:33 <ais523> and I can't be bothered to find a new one, it's not worth it
22:57:19 <ehird> "Lengthwise, it'd degenerate into the debate over whether 2 is odd or even."
22:57:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:58:44 <ehird> whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
22:59:53 <ehird> http://www.xkcd545.com/ <- fail
23:00:25 <oerjan> ehird: 2? i did see someone trying that with 1 in that discussion you linked
23:00:26 <ais523> xkcds have their own domain names now?
23:00:36 <ehird> ais523: no, some idiot registered it
23:00:46 <ehird> thinking that it wouldn't be deleted because he's an idiot
23:00:49 <ais523> does it redirect to xkcd 545?
23:01:00 <ehird> I'm not lynx(1), ais523.
23:01:05 <ehird> You're perfectly capable of clicking links.
23:01:21 <ais523> ehird: yes, but I don't /want/ to
23:01:34 <oerjan> "If the Wikipedia article gets deleted, null doesn't pay." that's definitely fail :D
23:01:36 <ehird> either use a browser or miss out on the www...
23:05:25 <ehird> telnet is a browser
23:06:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:08:11 <GregorR> http://codu.org/wiki/?title=Card+Chess
23:08:23 <ais523> it's not really chess...
23:08:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:09:14 <ehird> GregorR: you should invent my awesome game
23:09:37 -!- Corun has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep").
23:09:39 <GregorR> ais523: It's sort of in the /spirit/ of chess :P
23:09:55 <GregorR> ehird: If it's your game, I didn't invent it :P
23:10:14 <ehird> GregorR: the basic idea is: make solving it = breaking RSA (that is, primey factory)
23:10:23 <ehird> and yet still try and keep it possible for human
23:10:28 <ehird> = WHERE'S YOUR AI NOW
23:10:41 <ehird> for extra points, involve fractal
23:11:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes, but it has to be playable by humans
23:11:40 <ehird> with actual skill levels and the like, just as normal games
23:12:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: point: missed.
23:12:31 <ais523> ehird: I don't think that any way of organising the data, humans will be any good at solving RSA
23:12:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: waah.
23:12:47 <ais523> by the way, new scientist's reporting that a 28-bit quantum computer has been made
23:12:50 <ehird> ais523: the idea isn't to have humans solve RSA.
23:12:54 <ais523> (that's 28 quantum bits of memory /altogether/)
23:12:54 <oklopol> i was gonna say something...
23:12:58 <ehird> the idea is that for computers to solve it effectively,
23:13:01 <ehird> they have to solve RSA.
23:13:12 <oklopol> ais523: cool, did they factor 20 yet?
23:13:14 <ais523> and that there are plans for a 128-bit quantum computer being made along the same principle
23:13:16 <ehird> or else be strong ai
23:13:28 <ais523> I think it could factor 21, though
23:13:34 <ais523> oklopol: so Shor's algorithm fails on even numbers
23:13:36 <oklopol> i don't know anything about shor's
23:13:45 <oklopol> yeah okay assumed but didn't actually know
23:14:24 <oklopol> well. 21 is the next logical step
23:16:44 <ais523> you can do it in O(n) trivially
23:16:48 <ais523> but that's rather slow on big numbers
23:17:19 <SimonRC> isn't the complexity of factorisation usually expressed in terms of the size of the number?
23:17:48 <ais523> personally, though, I think n should be the number
23:17:49 <ais523> else what would you call it?
23:18:21 <oklopol> if it's the number, it's pseudo-polynomial, it's not polynomial on input size, it's polynomial on some invariant about input.
23:18:29 <oerjan> hm theory: the universe is actually simulated on a classical computer, using looping to simulate quantum effects. when quantum computers are built the number of loop iterations needed to simulate them goes asymptotical. the universe thus grinds to a halt on Dec 22, 2012 :D
23:18:29 <oklopol> in this case whatever number it represents
23:18:42 <bsmntbombdood> but if p=np, then you can factor in polynomial time in size right?
23:19:02 <ais523> oerjan: that's an insane theory
23:19:10 <ais523> also, people are getting the 2012 thing all wrong
23:19:22 <ais523> why is that particular doomsday date the one people seem to focus on, ayway?
23:19:31 <ehird> i've said this so many times to you
23:19:34 <ehird> THEY'RE NEW AGERS!
23:19:36 <ehird> THEY DON'T USE THEIR BRAIN!
23:19:42 <oklopol> ais523: i think it's because i watched that documentary.
23:19:45 <ehird> THEY'RE IDIOTS WHO WILL CROWD AROUND ANYTHING "SPIRITUAL"!
23:19:49 <ais523> but why that one in /particular/?
23:19:52 <oerjan> ais523: because it's the next one up with some kind of rationale
23:19:59 <ehird> BECAUSE THE MAYANS WERE CLEVER AND HAD "TECHNOLOGY"!
23:20:04 <ehird> AND THEY PREDICTED IT VAGUELY AND OMNIOUSLY!
23:20:31 <ais523> caps lock is cruise control for cool?
23:20:38 <ehird> cruise control for 2012
23:20:38 <ais523> (the previous line was typed with caps lock on)
23:20:52 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: i don't know whether it's np-hard. everyone else does
23:20:59 <ehird> CAPSLOCK + SHIFT = UPPERCASE ON OS X
23:21:17 <oklopol> more like i don't remember, because when i last looked at factorization, i didn't know what it meant.
23:21:32 <ais523> that's a bit ridiculous
23:21:47 <ais523> WHAT IF YOU WANT TO TYPE A lot BUT WITH A FEW lowercase WORDS OR lETTERS IN?
23:21:54 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: no, but p=np would imply it's easy
23:22:03 <ehird> ais523: DON"T USE CAPSLOCK
23:22:06 <oerjan> (well, polynomially easy)
23:22:06 <ais523> and before you say that's ridiculous, that was typical style for earlier versions of BASIC
23:22:19 <ais523> and shift+caps lock was capital there too, annoyingly
23:22:29 <oklopol> in fact i definitely should've known it's not been proven np-hard.
23:22:33 <ais523> I still mostly used caps lock when writing basic, though, as everything had to be capital but variable names
23:23:12 <oerjan> no one knows whether it's np-hard, i should think
23:23:52 <oklopol> i don't see any reason to use lowercase except that many dislike uppercase on irc
23:24:06 <ais523> lowercase is easier to read for long periods of time
23:25:30 <oklopol> they also say monospaced fonts are harder to read
23:26:15 <oklopol> and that is complete bullshit
23:26:32 <ehird> (INTERNET ARGUMENTS)
23:28:11 <oklopol> there's actually a course on quantum computing in our uni, would be one way to learn shor's algo, i'm too lazy to read the wiki page anyway.
23:28:34 <ais523> oklopol: it wasn't until after my course on engineering that I understood Shor's algorithm
23:28:38 <ais523> it's based on Fourier stuff
23:28:52 <ais523> and all the descriptions of it I've seen assume you already know how that works
23:29:16 <oklopol> i might know fourier stuff, i but i don't know whether i do.
23:29:54 <oerjan> you have to get your numbers fourier before they can be shorn
23:29:59 <oklopol> what does "engineering" mean for a course?
23:30:39 * oerjan is surprised to still be alive after that one
23:33:20 <oerjan> well, clearly it killed everyone else
23:34:59 <oerjan> maybe you were saved by not getting all of it, or something
23:37:17 <oklopol> i think i just liked "shorn"
23:37:45 <oklopol> ais523: what is an engineering course? :)
23:37:55 <ais523> oklopol: well it's electronic engineering in my case
23:38:14 <oklopol> i have an electronics course next wednesday
23:38:20 <oklopol> err i mean the one after that
23:39:20 <oklopol> also calculus and software engineering and some ai, should probably try to cut down on the irc chatter.
23:44:18 <ehird> I hear it's gonna be a killer filesystem
23:44:30 * oerjan swats ehird to death -----###
23:44:37 <ehird> SimonRC: i know but it's still funny
23:44:41 <ehird> oerjan: dammit Hans!
23:44:52 <SimonRC> apparently Reiser is having a bad time in prison
23:44:58 <oerjan> also, don't call me Hans
23:46:39 <SimonRC> I can't find where the news article went
23:46:48 <ehird> On 10 January 2009 it was reported that Hans Reiser is recovering after having been beaten up by several prisoners.[52]
23:46:51 <ais523> engineering: it's a bit of programming, a bit of electronics, a bit of maths, and some business management that I hate
23:46:54 <ehird> i feel ... so sorry for him?
23:46:55 <oklopol> does it sound too swedish?
23:47:25 <SimonRC> ah, here it is: http://cbs5.com/crime/hans.reiser.attack.2.905257.html
23:48:01 <oerjan> oklopol: oh it's a perfectly normal norwegian name, it's just not mine
23:48:54 <oerjan> i've got two cousins with it as first or middle name
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23:49:30 <oerjan> (although we don't actually use the latter one)
23:50:31 <oklopol> well middle names are kinda useless
23:51:44 <oerjan> i'm just about the only one on my father's side of the family who _doesn't_ have one...
23:53:16 <oerjan> also, reiser means "travels" in norwegian
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00:09:07 <SimonRC> http://www.curioustaxonomy.net/
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00:11:51 <oklopol> http://www.conservapedia.com/Diagonalization
00:13:18 <Slereah> " Diagonalization and the Existence of God"
00:13:18 <GregorR> Ah yes, conservapedia, truly MY reliable source of information.
00:14:00 <oklopol> However, diagonalization argues that no greatest idea can exist: quite bluntly, God is infinite, therefore He can be diagonalized to produce an even greater infinite.[3] This seeming disproof of the existence of God has cast doubt on the validity of Cantor's diagonalization.
00:14:31 <GregorR> Even for conservapedia that's pretty retarded :P
00:14:58 <Slereah> I bet this was written by Shlafly
00:15:01 <GregorR> I especially like how 2/3 references were in that section :P
00:15:07 <Slereah> He has that weird obsession with math
00:15:21 <Slereah> About how math was in a huge liberal conspiracy or something
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00:16:21 <oerjan> the universe _is_ in a huge liberal conspiracy!
00:16:50 <oerjan> which God started, naturally
00:17:38 <oerjan> or was that supernaturally
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00:17:54 <oerjan> oops i scared away freakpp
00:18:41 -!- freakpp has joined.
00:21:18 <oerjan> apparently i scared away everyone else instead
00:22:47 * oerjan checks if the swatter is bullet proof
00:22:56 * GregorR drives in in a healthy human baby truck.
00:23:15 <oerjan> I'll have a large one, with extra fries!
00:23:29 <oklopol> i laugh at pretty much everything today
00:23:40 <GregorR> oerjan: Would you like to supersize that?
00:23:56 <oklopol> you mean like a healthy adolescent?
00:23:58 <GregorR> oerjan: Two smalls for 59¢ more than one large!
00:24:02 <oerjan> nah i'll have to watch my weight
00:24:14 <GregorR> OK, pick up at the first window.
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01:00:05 <lament> i want to try temperature feedback
01:00:23 <lament> the idea is, put a temperature sensor on your finger and try to adjust your own temperature
01:00:36 <lament> what's a good practical way to do this?
01:01:09 <lament> i.e. you need a fast temperature sensor and some way to tell that the temperature is changing up or down
01:01:47 <lament> i just tried an impractical way - put together a circuit which plays a sound the frequency of which changes when you heat up a transistor
01:02:43 <lament> it's too slow, not sensitive enough, and you get very tired very quickly of hearing the sound
01:04:56 <GregorR> Building an electronic mood ring?
01:05:25 <lament> oh, good point, mood rings do the same thing
01:05:39 <lament> but i think they're very slow
01:05:54 <lament> i just want a precise instantaneous thermometer
01:06:11 <GregorR> Mood rings are very slow, yes, that was a joke, not a suggestion :P
01:06:55 <lament> i guess mood rings are actually quite accurate
01:07:10 <lament> if they manage to map the normal body temperature range to a bunch of different colours
01:07:50 <lament> yeah, a fast mood ring would be ideal
01:08:21 <oerjan> i guess for speed you need to use a material that conducts heat well...
01:09:49 <lament> i've never used electronic thermometers, are they fast?
01:09:58 <lament> i know they exist and are sold in drug stores
01:30:05 <bsmntbombdood> go through someone that sells specialized sensing equipment
01:33:20 <GregorR> Specialized sensing equipment you say ...
01:33:27 * GregorR drives around his healthy human babies truck.
01:41:07 * oerjan realizes he has created a monster
01:42:18 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: http://spamusement.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11821
01:47:52 <oerjan> oh there's a poster with that name?
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07:24:38 <Figs> Does anyone here know the (proper) name for sliding block puzzles?
07:37:59 <Figs> When I look for that though, I get things related to the 15 puzzle.
07:38:21 <Figs> Which may be related, but isn't (directly at least) what I'm looking for
07:41:01 <Figs> Like, you know how in Zelda, Pokemon, and other games, there are some rooms where you have to slide a block across some ice?
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09:30:50 <AnMaster> I tested cfunge on openbsd (sparc64)
09:31:01 <AnMaster> it worked, couldn't get cmake to compile, got OOM when trying
09:31:10 <AnMaster> had to do some strange workarounds
09:31:25 <AnMaster> but anyway I see some weird stuff due to openbsd
09:31:36 <AnMaster> like asin(2) is 0.0000 not nan
09:31:54 <AnMaster> and for FIXP 2aaaa****J pushes 0
09:32:08 <AnMaster> on my linux box it pushes a large negative number
09:32:50 <AnMaster> Slereah_, yes but it is floating point
09:33:01 <AnMaster> but I guess sparc64 isn't strictly IEEE
09:33:31 <AnMaster> oh and why does the values for addresses in SCKE/SOCK differ...
09:34:30 <AnMaster> didn't manage to get the ncurses using extensions to build
09:37:54 <AnMaster> oh defines in ncurses mess up there
09:42:28 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: you didn't know what zelda and pokemon are?
09:42:52 <Slereah_> And who would win if Zelda fought a pokemon!
09:43:26 <AnMaster> Slereah_, I think that happened in some "supersmash bros" or something
09:49:35 <oklopol> "AnMaster: like asin(2) is 0.0000 not nan" <<< no, asin(2) is nan
09:49:50 <oklopol> the range of sine is [-1, 1]
09:50:08 <oklopol> i didn't read context, maybe i just misunderstood
09:52:13 * oklopol gives up and reads context
09:53:01 <oklopol> 11:31… Slereah_: asin(2) should be complex :o <<< i guess this is a better answer
09:53:35 <oklopol> it's just you rarely need sines of complexes
09:54:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, well not on this system
09:58:26 <oklopol> not on this system what? you rarely need them on that system, not a better answer on that system..?
09:59:03 * AnMaster facepalms. Why is OpenBSD headers not following POSIX
09:59:23 <AnMaster> they implement mmap() without defining _POSIX_MAPPED_FILES
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10:48:06 <AnMaster> oklopol: the asin() thing is a openbsd bug, fixed since last release
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13:31:42 <AnMaster> A warning: Never every try to provide help in any other distro channel than source based geeky ones like #gentoo. You end up headdesking a lot and thinking it is #ubuntu... Like trying to explain what "port forwarding" is...
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14:35:08 <ehird> [14:34:46] <AnMaster> [13:31:42] A warning: Never every try to provide help in any other distro channel than source based geeky ones like #gentoo. You end up headdesking a lot and thinking it is #ubuntu... Like trying to explain what "port forwarding" is...
14:35:14 <ehird> waah not everyone knows the technical knowledge I do
14:35:22 <ehird> real men use SOURCED BASED distros
14:36:21 <AnMaster> ehird, no but when you are still trying to do it after 10 minutes
14:36:31 <ehird> okay, you didn't mention that
14:46:22 <ehird> 23:51:16 <bsmntbombdood> what's zelda and pokeman?
14:46:22 <ehird> 23:52:34 <Figs> Video games
14:46:22 <ehird> 23:53:15 <bsmntbombdood> oh
14:46:22 <ehird> 23:53:15 <bsmntbombdood> lame
14:47:30 <ehird> 01:59:03 * AnMaster facepalms. Why is OpenBSD headers not following POSIX
14:47:40 <ehird> people aren't perfect? some software bugs if it's posix compliant?
14:49:33 <ehird> Minors under 16 years old use this site. Posting of obscenity here is punishable by up to 10 years in jail under 18 USC § 1470. Vandalism is punishable up to 10 years in jail per 18 USC § 1030. Harassment is punishable by 2 years in jail per 47 USC § 223. The IP addresses of vandals will be reported to authorities. That includes your employer and your local prosecutor.
14:49:36 <ehird> i love conservapedia
14:50:18 <Slereah> Post some goatse right now
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15:21:03 <ehird> Hmm. I have both ~/Junk, ~/Code/scraps, ~/Saved and ~/Downloads.
15:21:07 <ehird> Somehow this all makes sense to me.
15:21:23 <ais523> well, I have a similar organisation
15:21:37 <ais523> I have a massive ~/research folder which holds everything that I didn't write
15:21:56 <ehird> ~/Junk is my sandbox; I play with files and stuff there. ~/Code/scraps/YYYY-MM/ holds ephemeral bits of code from those dates.
15:22:13 <ehird> ~/Saved/YYYY-MM/ holds downloads and documents, etc, from those dates.
15:22:27 <ehird> ~/Downloads is an ephemeral folder holding things I download; never non-empty for more than a few hours.
15:24:44 <ehird> I love how much "Save Lisp and Die" sounds like a biker slogan.
15:25:02 <AnMaster> I have ~/src ~/unknown ~/tmp ~/irc and a few others
15:25:14 <AnMaster> ~/src holds my own code and stuff where I follow svn or such
15:25:27 <ehird> ~/unknown holds old ones
15:25:43 <ais523> given that I spend nearly all my time programming, most of my programming projects are just directly off ~
15:25:49 <AnMaster> ehird, for me it holds stuff I found in ~ and ~/Desktop that seem interesting or important but I have no clue about
15:26:14 <AnMaster> including for example some sql dumps
15:26:21 <ehird> AnMaster: That would be ~/Saved/YYYY-MM/ in my system
15:26:29 <AnMaster> I have ~/irc/fn/esoteric/ehird
15:26:56 <AnMaster> contains ehird-python-lambda-bot.py for example
15:28:07 <ehird> The sb-ext:truly-the special form declares the type of the result of the operations, producing its argument; the declaration is not checked. In short: don't use it.
15:28:08 <ehird> — Special Operator: sb-ext:truly-the value-type form
15:28:08 <ehird> Specifies that the values returned by form conform to the value-type, and causes the compiler to trust this information unconditionally.
15:28:18 <ehird> Consequences are undefined if any result is not of the declared type -- typical symptoms including memory corruptions. Use with great care.
15:28:19 <ehird> (truly-the fixnum 3)
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15:40:50 <oklopol> i take pride in keeping my whole file system so disorganized and things so randomly named no one, including me, can find anything in there.
15:41:29 <ehird> and became a zombbie
15:41:49 <ais523> my file system is more or less organised enough that I can find things in a few tries
15:42:48 <ehird> i can't wait for plan10 and I'll just use the damn ubiquitous search. :P
15:43:35 <ais523> I was actually thinking blue-skies about how to do something more unixy than unix
15:43:40 <oklopol> well the mind is somewhat of a splay tree, so it doesn't matter what organization one uses.
15:43:41 <ais523> I ended up with a crazy design
15:43:57 <ais523> where everything had 8 standard filehandles rather than 3, regardless of whether it was running or not
15:44:06 <ais523> and individual characters in files had creation dates
15:44:34 <ehird> ais523: to be more unix, you have to be more worse is better
15:44:34 <oklopol> ehird: well, that's why i keep mine disorganized, why do something inherently suboptimal locally optimally.
15:44:36 <ehird> I think that fails that
15:44:47 <ehird> oklopol: yeah it's just in the meantime :<
15:45:18 <ais523> ehird: well, put it this way
15:45:21 <ais523> you know what grep does?
15:45:32 <ais523> it has an option to put the filename and number at the start of each match
15:45:40 <ais523> now, why is that grep-specific?
15:45:45 <ais523> it would be a lot more unixy to be able to do that to anything
15:45:57 <ehird> actually, I think there cannot be something more unixy than unix
15:46:00 <ais523> so the idea is a program that identifies which files things came from
15:46:02 <ehird> you run in to worse is better immediately
15:46:12 <ehird> because unix works ok in practice, it has mastered the UNIX nature
15:46:28 <ais523> well, maybe my idea isn't unixy
15:46:39 <ais523> the basic rule is that no program should have any command-line options
15:46:51 <ais523> apart from optionally one pipe that gives it information to operate on
15:46:56 <ais523> like a list of files, for instance
15:47:29 <oklopol> god i hate command-line options... (i probably shouldn't talk about oses :o)
15:49:10 <ehird> oklopol: i hate your face
15:49:13 <ehird> not so nice now is it :|
15:49:14 <oklopol> and that whole unix pipeline thing, i mean sure it's great compared to not having it, but seriously, how can anyone not see it's great because you can treat the programs syntactically like functions in the command line, and that you should just actually make them functions
15:49:30 <ehird> because unix is crap
15:49:42 <ehird> my face is crappy crap crap
15:49:51 <oklopol> but it's nicer than my face anyway.
15:51:02 <oklopol> should probably go again, don't talk while i'm gone.
15:51:24 <ehird> so ais523 -- now that oklopol has gone --
15:51:54 <oklopol> ais523: and individual characters in files had creation dates <<< this sounds like the recording everything ideology, the problem is it's done for an arbitrary subset of information, kinda defeating the use it normally has.
15:51:56 <ehird> TALK TALK TALK TALK TALK
15:52:12 <ais523> oklopol: well, I am planning to record everything, really
15:52:22 <ais523> but when thinking of ideas, I just work out what's necessary for them to work
15:52:43 <ehird> that's just plan11.
15:52:56 <ais523> knowing exactly what has to be recorded gives you more flexibility than just recording everything
15:56:12 <oklopol> so how come everytime i decide to make a program snippet well i realize doing it well would require me to make a massive intelligent framework for stuff similar to it, and i start getting syntax ideas for an esolang based on that task
15:57:15 <oklopol> anyway, i refuse to acknowledge your hey.
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15:59:57 <ehird> oklopol: whut kind of framework in question whuz this
16:04:18 <oklopol> basically i was just making a program that randomizes the order in which i should do my stuffs.
16:08:05 <oklopol> maybe i'll explain next seventh of september
16:09:23 <ehird> Haha, a message by Andrew Cooke of malbolge fame, sent via deja.com, in 2000, commenting on the then-new SBCL fork of CMUCL, with this sig:
16:09:27 <ehird> http://www.andrewcooke.free-online.co.uk/index.html
16:09:33 <ehird> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
16:09:35 <ehird> Also, he used uppercase letters.
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16:22:43 <ehird> >> What is correct way to write the next "sbcl" command in "clisp" ? The
16:22:54 <ehird> >> main problem is that we have not "save-lisp-and-die" command in clisp.
16:22:56 <ehird> > http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/image.html
16:22:58 <ehird> > If you require a memory corruption feature ("and-die"), you will have
16:22:58 <ehird> > to implement it yourself as a CLISP extension.
16:24:23 <ais523> deja.com redirects to google groups nowadays
16:30:29 <ehird> I was just commenting on the vintageness
16:33:27 <ehird> the fun thing about save-lisp-and-die is that the -and-die part is arguably a bug
16:33:37 <ais523> what does save-lisp-and-die do?
16:33:47 <ais523> freezes the state of the program and exits?
16:33:59 <ehird> ais523: pretty much, it's an SBCL function. saves the current Lisp to a resumable core file
16:34:09 <ehird> you can do :executable t to get a binary of a lisp program
16:34:13 <ehird> the -and-die part, well
16:34:18 <ehird> as I said, arguably a bug:
16:34:20 <ehird> the process of dumping the lisp to a core image corrupts its memory beyond recovery
16:34:27 <ehird> so the only thing you can do after dumping the image is kill the process
16:34:37 <ais523> does the process of loading the core image corrupt the image beyond recovert?
16:34:45 <ais523> if not, you could just reload instantly and keep going
16:34:54 <ehird> that's what you essentially do
16:34:58 <ehird> ais523: or, fork then dump
16:35:01 <ehird> but most of the time you don't want to use it
16:35:04 <ehird> only for deployment
16:35:14 <ehird> and even then just bundling sbcl with the app is 'preferred'
16:35:23 <ais523> why does dumping corrupt memory anyway?
16:35:44 <ehird> ais523: I'm not sure
16:35:50 <ehird> it's some complicated reason
16:36:35 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-02/standalone-lisp] % sbcl --load hello-world.lisp --eval '(deploy)'
16:36:36 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-02/standalone-lisp] % ./hello-world
16:36:36 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-02/standalone-lisp] % time ./hello-world
16:36:46 <ehird> ./hello-world 0.01s user 0.01s system 90% cpu 0.025 total
16:36:46 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-02/standalone-lisp] % ls -lh hello-world
16:36:47 <ehird> -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 25M 23 Feb 16:35 hello-world
16:36:49 <ehird> ^ dumps are large, especially executable ones
16:37:03 <ehird> commercial lisps have a 'tree shaker', which removes unused functions from the generated image
16:37:07 <ehird> but they're difficult
16:37:10 <ehird> and the overhead is constant anyway
16:37:31 <ehird> so, e.g., a very large "enterprise" lisp app will be more on the order of 100MB than 500MB
16:38:17 <ehird> ais523: it's also kind of a hack: it relies on the fact that all common object file formats ignore garbage at the end of file
16:38:21 <ehird> so it just dumps sbcl, then the image
16:38:31 <ehird> kind of like perl's __END__
16:38:43 <ais523> there's no real need to rely on that fact, is there?
16:38:51 <ais523> couldn't you just mark the region as initialised data or something?
16:38:56 <ehird> ais523: the alternative is relying on the system's linker
16:38:58 <ais523> that would have exactly the same effect, but be legal
16:39:02 <ehird> and not everyone has a C development environment
16:39:15 <ais523> well, the alternative alternative is knowing what the object file format is
16:39:46 <ehird> implementing the whole object format?
16:39:49 <ehird> what a waste of time
16:40:25 <ehird> ais523: here's the source of hello-world.lisp in the above example:
16:40:26 <ehird> http://paste.lisp.org/display/76026
16:41:27 <ais523> looks surprisingly complex
16:41:45 <ehird> the start is the standard package prelude, then a trivial main function
16:41:58 <ehird> then it's just save-lisp-and-di to hello-world, executable, and the toplevel is (main) (quit)
16:42:44 <ehird> ais523: the more conventional way is to just do (save-lisp-and-die "hello-world.core"), then include sbcl and a shell script that does:
16:42:50 <ehird> sbcl --core hello-world.core --eval '(progn (main) (quit))'
16:43:04 <ehird> this way is tidier though
16:45:05 <ehird> ais523: you could put this in a library so it becomes
16:45:19 <ehird> (defun deploy () (deployer:deploy "hello-world" #'main))
16:46:03 <ais523> and that's how you compile Lisp
16:46:17 <ehird> ais523: 'compile' != 'produce standalone executable'
16:46:27 <ehird> in the conventional sense, that's how you compile a lisp pr ogram
16:48:53 <ehird> about 0 people cared about that rant there, I think
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16:54:30 <oklopol> i was gonna say hello too, but there was no common pattern :<
16:54:50 <oklopol> because of the lack of comma
16:56:20 <ais523> who is it that normally ruins patterns around here anyway
16:56:38 <ais523> and I think to continue the pattern I'd have to omit a few more characters
16:57:34 <Hiato> what about {h,e,l,o,k,p} -> use appropriately
16:58:03 <oklopol> i don't see why it'd be hellooklopo
16:58:13 <oklopol> i guess you could just be erasing the other way
16:58:15 <ais523> I was removing a character from the end of each word, including punctuation
16:58:34 <ais523> hell oklopo probably fits the pattern better, though
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16:59:03 <oklopol> wonder why Hiato left so early :)
16:59:26 <oklopol> ...anyway back on topic it's actually Hell oklopo
17:00:02 <oklopol> H -> h -> H you sillypants
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17:10:19 <ehird> hmm, oklopol, have you ever invented a language and then just like sat there admiring it and you realise that you don't actually want to write the program you made it for
17:13:43 <ais523> ehird: you still have a language to admire
17:13:46 <ais523> so it's still a good thing
17:13:57 <ehird> yeah, but then I realise all programs are pointless and I just sit there :-D
17:15:29 <ais523> languages can be more fun than programs in them
17:15:38 <ais523> I've never written a program in Eodermdrome, but I still sit there admiring it
17:16:33 <oklopol> languages are usually more fun than programs.
17:17:26 <oklopol> ehird: no not really, since i usually don't make my languages for a real purpose.
17:17:40 <oklopol> i usually build them around a small proof-of-concept
17:27:47 <ehird> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0475.html
17:28:06 <ehird> ((Descends into discussion of localizing the whole thing, I am not shitting you))
17:50:32 <GregorR> I bet you "color" is the more common spelling :P
17:51:09 <ais523> heh, many programs have UK and US localisations
17:51:14 <ais523> and I think "the" is actually the most common spelling
17:54:14 <GregorR> If you're going to play that stupid game, "a" is almost certainly more common.
17:55:39 <ais523> "the" is the most common word in English
17:55:44 <ais523> by pretty much every count that people have tried
18:00:44 <ehird> the the the the the the the the the
18:00:48 <ehird> HA! Even more common.
18:00:55 <ehird> aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine aubergine
18:09:25 <AnMaster> ehird, this language you mentioned
18:09:36 <AnMaster> "<ehird> hmm, oklopol, have you ever invented a language and then just like sat there admiring it and you realise that you don't actually want to write the program you made it for"
18:09:48 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, not one right now, I was just thinking of previous occurances
18:10:41 <AnMaster> it looked like you were trying to solve an urgent and deep emotional relation problem towards a language you just created.
18:11:27 <oklopol> but turned out it was just gas
18:12:00 <ehird> AnMaster: languages beat me as a child :(
18:12:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I see. You should get some professional help then to avoid post-programming trauma
18:12:49 <ehird> corrupted memory. every day.
18:12:53 <AnMaster> ehird, if you have emacs try M-x doctor
18:14:16 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/397602.txt?key=f8979ft6x7ffg800ibxkaq
18:15:01 * lament buffer-overruns ehird's brain
18:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird, try asking it about taking your own life or such, it is anti-fun
18:18:21 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and it is also fun to insult it
18:18:50 <AnMaster> ehird, like telling it "I want to kill myself!"
18:19:04 <ehird> I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice. Richard M Stallman is my father. Do you know Stallman?
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18:20:24 <AnMaster> ehird, other fun things: try to play doctor back at it
18:20:46 <ehird> Bot feedback loops tend to work better with more advanced AI than eliza
18:21:10 <AnMaster> ehird, it detects it sometimes and say stuff like "I'll ask the questions here please!"
18:21:26 <AnMaster> ehird, did you see how I meant with "anti-fun" bvtw?
18:27:43 <lament> Tell me more about ask the questions here please!
18:32:09 <oklopol> lament: have you ever seen a duck?
18:32:19 <lament> oklopol: yes, repeatedly.
18:32:37 <oklopol> and have you ever seen on continuously?
18:33:07 <ais523> oklopol: that's boring, you should have corrected the corrections rather than the string
18:33:20 <ais523> that way all your corrections are correct to
18:33:58 <oklopol> but you know i'm always correcting a substring of an earlier message anyway.
18:34:06 <oklopol> so i'm just correcting the substring after *
18:34:27 <oklopol> don't worry, it doesn't lose generality, just optimization
18:37:50 <ehird> unary is so stupid
18:38:24 <ehird> voila, corrected the correction in the same way.
18:38:31 <ehird> what am I ranting about again
18:41:58 <oklopol> that solves the problem of which substring you're fixing (for stuff with plenty whitespace), but you still don't know what you're correcting
18:56:26 <ehird> oklopol: the last line with errors.
18:58:58 <ehird> oklopol: actually, most of the time you could just use *
18:59:07 <ehird> since if someone knows you have an error they probably know the rpelamcent
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19:15:34 <ehird> my real name is indeed ^H5
19:18:07 <ais523> ehird: what sort of parents put a literal backspace in someone's name?
19:18:12 <ais523> that's as bad as the whole bobby tables thing
19:18:26 * ais523 wonders if there's a real life bobby tables, XKCD can be very influential sometimes
19:18:43 <oklopol> well there's a www.gameparadise.com in usa
19:18:57 <ehird> ais523: I much prefer ^C:!rm -rf ~<RET> as a name.
19:19:03 <ehird> It, ehm, improves tast.e
19:19:13 <ais523> ehird: a name designed to annoy vi users?
19:19:24 <ehird> How to make it an emacs polyglot...
19:19:36 <ais523> the characters in emacs for that aren't even in standard character sets
19:19:45 <ais523> well, meta-! is 163, isn't it?
19:19:53 <ais523> so it would depend on what character encoding you were using
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20:30:11 <ehird> Another thing they are trying to do is cut all the hard words out of the English language. They are changing it to make it more simple so that people will not be too clever or think too much. --simple english wikipedia on 1984
20:36:13 <ehird> Percent means out of one hundred. It is often shown with the symbol "%". It is used even if there are not a hundred items. The number is then scaled so it can be compared to one hundred. For instance, four hot lesbians are rubbing and spanking in bed, three of them are white and one is black. The percentage of white lesbians is 3 out of 4 = 3/4 = 75/100 = 75%.
20:43:11 * oklopol thought the part before the lesbians was funnier
20:43:45 <oklopol> (then again i guess you'd explain what percentages mean in an article about percentages.)
21:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, you read XKCD today I see
21:19:36 <AnMaster> * ais523 wonders if there's a real life bobby tables, XKCD can be very influential sometimes <-- oh dear.. I hope not too much in this case...
21:20:42 <oklopol> just wanted to make sure no one would congratulate me
21:22:15 <AnMaster> oklopol, gratulerar i efterskott
21:22:24 <AnMaster> not sure how you say that in English
21:22:46 <AnMaster> it means like retroactive congrats
21:24:06 <olsner> sorry, eating chips, can only type with one hand
21:24:14 <AnMaster> olsner, how do you translate "gratulerar i efterskott"
21:24:30 <AnMaster> olsner, how did that northbridge taste?
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21:25:59 <oklopol> "i congratulate you after i shoot you"
21:27:16 <ais523> AnMaster: apparently bash 4 has just been released
21:27:27 <AnMaster> more like "I wish I could have congratulated you when it happened, but I didn't know about it and thus send my retroactive congratulations"
21:27:32 <AnMaster> ais523, whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
21:27:38 <GreaseMonkey> GNU bash, version 3.2.25(0)-release (i386-portbld-freebsd7.0)
21:27:51 <AnMaster> GNU bash, version 3.2.39(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
21:27:54 <ais523> it's still stealing good ideas from zsh, it seems
21:28:10 <ais523> GNU bash, version 3.2.39(1)-release (i486-pc-linux-gnu)
21:28:17 <oklopol> AnMaster: i know what it means, i would've known what you meant even if you'd said "garble garble florble florble".
21:28:18 <ais523> wow, I'm using almost exactly the same version as AnMaster
21:29:36 <GreaseMonkey> wow. i haven't updated my ports tree in quite some time.
21:29:51 <AnMaster> http://www.bash-hackers.org/wiki/doku.php/bash4
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21:30:16 <GreaseMonkey> hmm... looks like they've added simutrans to the ports list
21:30:16 <AnMaster> declare -A declares associative arrays (see below).
21:30:41 <GreaseMonkey> i had to build it myself and IIRC had to hack a few things up
21:31:02 <GreaseMonkey> i recall looking through the source and finding that someone accidentally set the mixer speed to 22500 instead of 22050
21:34:31 <GreaseMonkey> (as opposed to simutrans in the last few lines)
21:34:57 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, I used simutrans on gentoo for ages
21:35:19 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, and bash 4.0 is new
21:35:30 <GreaseMonkey> there's one main difference between 99.14 and 99.15
21:35:44 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, I'm using 100.something?
21:35:46 <GreaseMonkey> that's pretty much the only difference i noticed
21:36:05 <AnMaster> I need to update the port then
21:36:16 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, and yeah newer versions are slower
21:37:22 <GreaseMonkey> also, if you use SDL_mixer, you can get it to play files other than just MIDI
21:38:45 <AnMaster> I listen to classical music all the tame
21:39:03 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, what is new in 101?
21:39:17 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, I'm just going to update the ebuild for it and recompile
21:39:36 <oklopol> AnMaster: and do you listen to death metal all the wild?
21:39:53 <ais523> http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/bash/NEWS seems to be the changelog
21:40:12 <oklopol> (yes, also mine didn't make much sense, the problem is classical music isn't really that "tame", so i just took a random genre.)
21:40:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, I like Vivaldi's summer for example, which is anything but tame
21:41:02 <oklopol> yes, i've heard most of the famous stuff
21:41:18 <ais523> it seems they stole ** from zsh, ehird will probably be either happy or angry at that
21:41:31 <oklopol> i like winter, the rest are only good in the parts that are copied from winter.
21:41:45 <AnMaster> Kraus? in some cases he is like Mozart + (vivaldi's summer - vivaldi's spring)
21:43:08 <AnMaster> http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.554777
21:43:33 <AnMaster> hope you can find VB 140 IV. Allegro on youtube
21:44:09 <GreaseMonkey> q. A new `-E' option to the complete builtin allows control of the default behavior for completion on an empty line.
21:45:21 <AnMaster> what do you think is the best new feature?
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21:45:25 <AnMaster> I think it is associative array variables
21:46:14 <AnMaster> GreaseMonkey, can you test something
21:47:10 <oklopol> wow. they added a feature even quickbasic doesn't have!
21:48:39 <oklopol> nevermind, it's a complex programming joke
21:48:52 <oklopol> also may require some serious misunderstanding about what you're talking about
22:02:23 <GreaseMonkey> argh wtf simutrans 101 crashed when i placed a stop <_<
22:18:23 <ehird> 13:20:28 <oklopol> oh btw i *am* 20
22:18:23 <ehird> 13:20:42 <oklopol> just wanted to make sure no one would congratulate me
22:18:33 <ehird> quantum spacetime rip
22:19:06 <ehird> <ais523> AnMaster: apparently bash 4 has just been released
22:19:11 <ehird> how many versions behind zsh now? ;-)
22:19:29 <ehird> finally. I think that was in zsh 1.
22:19:49 <ehird> <AnMaster> declare -A declares associative arrays (see below).
23:11:03 <ehird> I'ma invent an esolang
23:11:06 <ehird> haven't done that in a whiles
23:11:22 <ehird> it will be based on bicycles.
23:11:52 <psygnisfive> the mac was first intended to be a bicycle.
23:13:41 <ehird> okay, I think I have a language idea.
23:13:54 <ehird> sub-TC, but there are non-trivial halting and non-halting programs. all looping is done via cyclic program lists
23:14:11 <ehird> halting problem is solvable ofc
23:15:13 <ehird> now i gotsa figures it out how to makes it work
23:18:15 <oklopol> psygnisfive: only? i thought i was rather childish.
23:18:44 <oklopol> you mean those things you can bike with
23:18:53 <ehird> and also make cycles with.
23:19:34 <oklopol> can you use it both for algorithmic purposes and for getting to the shop?
23:19:46 <ehird> yes. if you attach a bicycle to your computer, that is, for the latter.
23:19:55 <ehird> the cord should be long.
23:21:13 <oklopol> awesome. but maybe you should have a wireless network instruction for when you need to go see your uncle in bosnia?
23:22:00 <ehird> oklopol: my basic idea is you start with a sub-tc loopless language, then add a cycle special form that takes a list (= code) and cyclicifies it
23:22:56 <ehird> getting this _useful_ is difficult :D
23:30:08 <ehird> hm maybe i should base it on little inferrant tics in the cyclestream
23:46:49 * ehird drafts objectivist c spec
23:48:04 <oklopol> ö, like we say here in finland
23:48:28 <oklopol> (and by that i mean i say, and no one else knows what i mean)
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23:59:52 <ehird> From hq9++ interpreter:
23:59:54 <ehird> 'OO portion of ++ command isn't implemented yet
23:59:54 <ehird> 'this shouldn't have much bearing on program execution... I think
23:59:59 <ehird> and yet it still implements the accumulator
00:05:54 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Reaper cool
00:16:19 <ehird> Slereah_: !!!!!!!!!
00:16:19 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esme&action=history
00:16:30 <ehird> now with PERL SUPPORT
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00:34:55 -!- ehird has set topic: (sb-ext:be-saved-by-lisp-and-live :jesus t) http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
00:36:34 <ehird> http://github.com/fare How the mighty have fallen. Tunes project lead on github ;-)
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05:04:23 <oerjan> <bsmntbombdood> what's zelda and pokeman?
05:04:35 <oerjan> wait a minute, even _i_ know that
05:04:44 <oerjan> not that i have played them though
05:05:49 <oerjan> * AnMaster looks for oerjan to explain
05:06:06 <oerjan> it's because swedes are actually living their lives backwards, you see
05:07:30 <oerjan> <oklopol> oh btw i *am* 20
05:08:15 <oerjan> <oklopol> "i congratulate you after i shoot you"
05:08:25 <oerjan> no, that would be the finnish method
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05:32:59 <Slereah_> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1185926215
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07:53:46 <oklopol> A Turing tarpit is a language that aims for Turing-completeness in an arbitrarily small number of linguistic elements - ideally, as few as possible. <<< i'm pretty sure you could make something that qualifies as a turing tarpit but had tons of commands
07:54:20 <oklopol> i guess that does say "as few as possible"
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07:56:05 <oklopol> oerjan: not that i have played them though <<< not surprising, straight people rarely play pokeman
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08:44:46 <oklopol> heh. did LZW manually for a course exercise
08:44:51 <oklopol> everyone got a different answer :D
08:45:06 <oklopol> (probably needless to point out mine was the only correct one)
08:46:46 <oklopol> it's this simple compression algo where you always extend the codeword you used last.
08:46:59 <oklopol> so that you could send it as one symbol next time
08:47:42 <oklopol> so essentially you trivial the trivial to achieve the trivial.
08:54:22 <psygnisfive> put a trivial in your trivial so you can trivial while you trivial?
09:01:26 <oklopol> oh. this is the last lecture.
09:02:29 <oklopol> i should probably check these things before coming here, last week i waited two hours for a lecture that had been cancelled
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09:10:01 <oklopol> blah, i need a larger brain
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11:23:05 <AnMaster> <oerjan> it's because swedes are actually living their lives backwards, you see <-- damn, you revealed the secret!
11:24:35 <okotin> hello AnMaster i'm okotin
11:25:13 <okotin> it means "the thing that okos"
11:25:35 <okotin> one of our lectures is called "okhotin"
11:25:47 <okotin> i removed the typo and adapted my nick (for now)
11:38:24 <AnMaster> "okotin" is quite close to "kokain" when you think about it
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14:41:35 <ehird> lol I wondered, why on earth can't I connect to irc lolol?
14:41:37 <ehird> then i realised, lol
14:41:39 <ehird> my domain expired lol ^)^
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14:44:02 <ehird> 03:38:24 <AnMaster> "okotin" is quite close to "kokain" when you think about it
14:44:52 <ehird> kind of like kangaroo is close to machine.
14:44:57 <okotin> yeah sorry for advocating drugs
14:44:59 -!- okotin has changed nick to oklopol.
14:45:17 <oklopol> ...is this too close to marijuana?
14:45:24 <AnMaster> I wasn't complaining. I was just making an observation :P
14:46:23 <oklopol> complanations and observations both usually need to make sense, in general
14:47:47 <oklopol> that's what i was going for
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14:59:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, "complanate" sounds French?
15:00:27 <ehird> "Or another user might be uninterested in Western isolationism, and instead prefer culturally insulting approximation of Eastern languages by choosing to store pathnames in UTF-8, allowing the full range of Unicode text in his pathnames."
15:02:04 <AnMaster> ehird, um I don't remember which parts of unicode UTF-8 can't represent...
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15:02:13 <AnMaster> wasn't it only some unused areas?
15:02:43 <AnMaster> ehird, also where was the quote from
15:05:04 <fizzie> The quote pretty much says "choosing UTF-8, which allows the full range of Unicode text".
15:05:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, but isn't that allowed anyway? UTF-8 in path names
15:06:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, why was it considering UTF-8 "culturally insulting approximation of Eastern languages"
15:08:18 <jix> hmm at least the official chinese character encoding uses unicode too...
15:08:26 <jix> but it remains compatible to older encodings
15:08:29 <fizzie> I don't really know Eastern languages that well, so I can't really guess. Maybe they've combined some stuff? Although there's the CJK compatibility range and everything.
15:08:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Han unification.
15:08:34 <ehird> It's why Unicode is uncommon in asia. (UTF-8 moreso, since it's biased heavily towards English...)
15:08:38 <ehird> fizzie: combined some stuff - han unification
15:10:18 <jix> but using a regional encoding that would only encode one language isn't any better :/
15:11:44 <ehird> Hot damn, Safari 4 is a ripoff of Chrome.
15:11:46 <ehird> It's... kind of ugly.
15:11:47 <ehird> The tabs are in the title bar. Excuse me, Apple, OS X doesn't work like that.
15:12:23 <ehird> Also the refresh button is in the location bar just like MobileSafari.
15:12:28 <ehird> What were they smoking.
15:14:12 <ehird> I guess I will get used to it.
15:14:45 <fizzie> Why are there no tabs in these screenshots? Do you have some?
15:14:56 <Deewiant> fizzie: http://www.apple.com/safari/whats-new.html#tabs
15:15:51 <ehird> Yeah it's really pretty awful, I hope the y fix that.
15:16:01 <fizzie> Goggel's image search founded me silly images; should've navigated straight there, I guess.
15:16:02 <ehird> http://images.apple.com/safari/images/overlay-windows-1-20090217.png Oh good lord.
15:16:05 <ehird> It is identical to Chrome.
15:16:17 <ehird> look at those two buttons to the right. And the placement of the add bookmark button.
15:16:22 <ehird> That is through and through a chrome ripoff.
15:16:35 <fizzie> Heh, the hype is funny. "Now Safari takes tabbed browsing to new heights — to the very top of the browser window — instantly providing more room for you to enjoy the sites you’re reading."
15:16:36 <Deewiant> What's the 'add bookmark' button; I don't speak icon
15:16:58 <ehird> Deewiant: The + in the address bar
15:17:01 <Deewiant> s/speak/read/ would be more appropriate I suppose
15:17:02 <ehird> exactly how google chrome puts it
15:17:22 <ehird> also, those iicons to the right are in fact the actual google chrome ones
15:17:44 <ehird> I guess they put the tab bar like this to be slightly different, but it's worse
15:18:01 <ehird> Just build Chromium and call it Safari, apple :P
15:19:11 <ehird> ... They ditched webkit?
15:19:16 <ehird> "Using the new Nitro Engine, for example, Safari executes JavaScript up to 30 times faster than Internet Explorer 7 and more than 3 times faster than Firefox 3 based on performance in leading industry benchmark tests: iBench and SunSpider.
15:19:19 <ehird> that's just javascript
15:23:32 <ehird> This is very fast, though. Which is nice.
15:25:47 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7zt0o/fuck_you_vista_i_wont_even_live_that_long_pic/c07usxj
15:28:13 <ehird> For each of the near term reporting requirements (major communications, formula block grant allocations, weekly reports) agencies are required to provide a feed (preferred: Atom 1.0, acceptable: RSS) of the information so that content can be delivered via subscription.
15:28:17 <ehird> — US Stimulus Bill
15:50:25 <ehird> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/eler-highlights-2008
15:51:01 <ehird> first comic since december 2007. mazing.
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16:01:58 -!- jix has joined.
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16:56:06 <ehird> i listen to only Why Cooperation With RMS Is Impossible and no other audial tones
16:58:42 <ehird> christel. what kind of shitty system does freenode run on.
16:58:58 <ehird> you can restore to a DB without restarting services.
17:01:18 <ehird> http://www.geocities.com/therealtroll/people/ <-- only credits rob pike in "special notice". sheesh!
17:02:13 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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17:14:04 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:15:32 <ehird> if I find #lisp friendly, does that mean I've turned into an asshole myself? :D
17:19:47 -!- olsner has joined.
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17:21:45 * oerjan swats AnMaster and olsner -----###
17:22:15 <oerjan> BECAUSE I GOT SPAM FROM SWEDEN TODAY
17:24:49 <oerjan> <oklopol> oerjan: not that i have played them though <<< not surprising, straight people rarely play pokeman
17:25:04 <oerjan> i assume this is a pun on the misspelling, or something
17:30:17 <olsner> spend most of yesterday merging stuff (in CVS of all things), and most of today answering e-mails with stupid questions and lamenting over stupid misconceptions and ideas
17:30:31 <ehird> isn't there a cvs-git bridge?
17:31:27 <ais523> pretty much any version control system can be converted into any other, with various amounts of lost information
17:32:00 <olsner> yeah, tried it, didn't help a lot... after the git magic merge thing was done, i gave me pieces of subtle garbage in the patches I wanted to merge that shouldn't be there
17:33:49 <olsner> eventually, I merged half of it from the original sources in another CVS branch and the other half from the old branch
17:34:03 <olsner> the good old manual 5-way merge
17:37:06 <olsner> git managed to seriously screw some things up too, like I accidentally used push the wrong way, upon which git completely removed the branch I was working on
17:39:38 <olsner> I was just lucky I had a recent print-out of the most recent checkin on that branch, just echoing that out into .git/refs/heads/<branch> seemed to actually work
17:40:42 <olsner> (continues ranting) git seems to make an excellent storage back-end for a version control system, just doesn't have all the horses in the ui stables yet
17:41:04 * olsner pops a vein and falls over and dies
17:41:22 <ais523> I don't really like git UI-wise
17:43:23 <olsner> it also has a tendency to do things like ask "[something went wrong,] Have you run git add?", even when it's completely inappropriate (or impossible) to actually to git add
17:43:54 <oklopol> oerjan: i assume this is a pun on the misspelling, or something <<< yes, wasn't that kinda obvious
17:44:08 <ehird> git's UI is nice, it just takes getting used to
17:44:17 <oklopol> hmm, right, i guess i could've said that about pokemon too
17:44:59 <olsner> cvs actually is a good ui for cvs, it just has a sucky backend for doing version control
17:45:30 <ehird> horse shit is a good UI for horse shit, it just has a sucky backend for smell
17:46:29 <ehird> [17:22:16] <oerjan> BECAUSE I GOT SPAM FROM SWEDEN TODAY
17:46:35 <ehird> especially 2 lines down!
17:46:42 <olsner> especially when all-caps
17:46:52 <ehird> yes, so easy to miss
17:46:53 <olsner> removed by the subconscious troll-filter
17:46:53 <oerjan> well i am used to him being unable to read 2 lines _up_ ....
17:47:21 <olsner> haha, yeah, 2 lines down is kind of hard, unless you've got some kind of temporal paradox working for you
17:47:44 <ais523> so if I sent an email to oerjan, would it, platonically speaking, be spam?
17:47:57 <oklopol> somekinda temporal paradox... like reading backwards?
17:48:00 <oerjan> well i did mention swedes living backwards yesterday
17:48:16 <oerjan> ais523: platonically speaking, probably not
17:49:50 <ehird> what about pragtonically
17:51:44 <AnMaster> any lines in all caps look like the background colour to me
17:51:59 <ehird> ANMASTER IS A POOPY HEA
17:52:05 <oklopol> I'M GONNA BECOME A BIOLOGIST
17:52:19 <olsner> why are you all sending empty lines?
17:52:28 <AnMaster> bbl, going to setup a wireless phone for parents...
17:52:39 <oerjan> ehird: NICE TO MEET YOU MR. SAMSA
17:53:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: do they want it set up so kids cannot use it? :D
17:55:00 * AnMaster searches for some language he can read in the multi-lingual manual
17:56:17 <oerjan> Ok fnedbully gradwe gepoly telefony swa bedsky sba dowuto "ON" ...
18:00:34 <oerjan> Gebo antennow sgedaty staciona basiska vu lebdotu growny.
18:08:04 <ehird> http://s3.amazonaws.com/colourlovers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/t-mobile_copyright_magenta.jpg
18:45:22 <ehird> "If you send disparaging E-mails about me to someone else and I find out about it, I can and will pursue defamation charges. I have an excellent lawyer and I rather doubt you do."
18:45:26 <ehird> Uh... Go fuck yourself.
18:45:42 <ehird> "If you use other people’s sites, including blogs, to attack me personally, I can and will do all of the same things I’d do if you mailed me personally. I will also lobby to have your comments removed and your commenting privileges permanently banned."
18:45:52 <ehird> You are a dicksucker. Now get lament or fizzie to ban me.
18:46:35 * oerjan thinks he saw that somewhere
18:46:54 <ehird> It's on Joe Clark's site.
18:47:00 <oerjan> yeah but it wasn't recently i saw it
18:47:06 <ehird> it was an old post
18:47:20 <ehird> wait, I think he's gay
18:47:23 <ehird> dicksucker isn't much of an insult
18:48:32 <oerjan> also, i expect that guy has known for a _long_ time that it backfired. so i'd say you _are_ spamming here.
18:48:50 <ehird> I never done got banned from spamming here before :-D
18:49:29 <oerjan> of course not, we are more civilized here -----###
18:49:30 <ehird> Hmm. I wonder how to best express myself ... ah!
18:49:42 <ehird> Joe Clark, get a life and shut up. Stop cluttering the internet with your inane prattle. Go aestivate under a rock somewhere.
18:49:54 <ehird> You see, your disclaimer is not in the letter of the law, hence is invalid. Therefore, while you may think you have cleverly
18:49:58 <ehird> found a loophole you are just making an annoyance of yourself.
18:50:05 <ehird> To be fair, I suppose I must admit the possibility that you were just trying to
18:50:14 <ehird> get people riled up before renouncing your 'powers', but
18:50:20 <ehird> common sane and the courts will do that anyway.
18:50:23 <ehird> In short, feep off and die.
18:50:28 <ehird> --Yittra, er, ehird.
18:50:37 <ehird> For all that typing, only ais523, comex and maybe oerjan will get that.
18:50:40 <ehird> What a waste of time.
18:53:51 <ehird> I killed the channel
18:55:24 <oerjan> nothing sensible said for an hour
18:56:24 <ehird> oerjan: for the record, _did_ you get that?
18:56:41 <oklopol> why will only they get it?
18:56:53 <oklopol> i don't like it when things i've gotten are taken away from me.
18:57:13 <ehird> oklopol: well, it's a rather obscure reference.
18:57:30 <ais523> ehird: I only /just/ got it
18:57:39 <ehird> specifically, it's the first reply to an obscure post on a message board used to play an obscure game in 1992
18:57:49 <oklopol> i assumed it was a nomic ref
18:57:51 <ehird> (oerjan: Lindrum's judgment, from NomicWorld)
18:57:56 <ehird> oklopol: you win $5
18:58:08 <ehird> well not lindrum's judgment
18:58:09 <ehird> the first reply to it
18:58:25 <ehird> to quote the original reply that I madlib'd:
18:58:35 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I'd rather not do that again
18:58:41 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: yeah you're pretty fucking insane alright
18:59:02 <ehird> Get a life, lindrum (Yittra, Sep 28 05:59)
18:59:02 <ehird> LIndrum, get a life and shut up. Stop cluttering the noticeboard with
18:59:02 <ehird> your inane prattle. Go aestivate under a rock somewhere.
18:59:02 <ehird> You see, your judgement is not in the spirit of the game, hence
18:59:04 <ehird> is illegal. Therefore, while you may think you have cleverly found
18:59:12 <ehird> a loophole you are just making an annoyance of yourself. To be fair, I
18:59:13 <ehird> suppose I must admit the possibility that you were just tring to
18:59:14 <ehird> get the game going before renouncing your 'powers' , but
18:59:15 <ehird> 1015 and 1016 will do that anyway. In short, feep off and die.
18:59:16 <ehird> that was more of a flood than I expected
18:59:18 <ehird> IRC is so much bigger than a web browser. or something.
18:59:34 <oklopol> (i found it funnier without the reference)
18:59:52 <ehird> maybe I could get a phd in referenceless references
19:00:29 <oklopol> i usually do, references are only fun when they are very vague and complicated; usually i prefer original content
19:00:47 <ehird> oh fuck joe clark emailed me he's kicking down my door
19:00:49 <ehird> help help help help help
19:01:13 <ehird> JOE CLARK IS GOING TO KILL MEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
19:02:03 <oerjan> bah he's just an average joe
19:02:34 <ehird> http://i42.tinypic.com/akjp91.jpg <-- Joe Clark = yasser arafat
19:02:39 <oklopol> well. the colors are on my side
19:02:57 <oklopol> i love how the hat appears when he turns his head
19:03:58 <ehird> see above, anmaster
19:04:01 <ehird> http://i41.tinypic.com/nbujqw.jpg
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19:05:14 <oklopol> also i'm not actually asking who he is.
19:05:18 <ehird> also he's a pirate
19:05:22 <ehird> a pirate ninja failure.
19:05:25 <oklopol> i'm *saying* who's that guy
19:05:41 <oklopol> it's a whole different thing.
19:06:10 <oklopol> it only makes as much sense as you can consume.
19:06:19 <oklopol> oh that actually worked as an insult
19:07:17 <oklopol> well, this has been a nice battle of minds, but i need to go again
19:07:54 <ehird> i'm not sure how to react
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20:05:39 <ehird> if anyone here does common lisp development
20:05:44 <ehird> don't use asdf-install, use cl-build
20:13:08 <ehird> ais523: if I have a program with its executable and data files in one directory, and it depends on them like that, how would you do it? I'm considering putting it in /usr/local/share/<appname>/ then symlinking the binary in /usr/local/bin/
20:13:37 <ais523> that's usual, although I don't quite think that works
20:13:42 <ais523> as it won't see them as all in the same directory
20:13:52 <ehird> it follows symlinks
20:13:57 <ais523> the usual method I've seen is to put the app and all its files in a subdirectory of /usr/lib and use a shellscript to call it
20:14:07 <ais523> no idea why people normally put them in /usr/lib not /usr/share though
20:14:17 <ehird> share is for documents
20:16:09 <oerjan> cut them off before they take over
20:17:40 <oklopol> they'd just grow back again
20:18:27 <oerjan> well so do nails, you'll just have to do it regularly
20:18:35 <oklopol> i don't have nails, i'm a lizard.
20:19:06 <oklopol> i have mentioned that multiple times
20:19:25 <oerjan> not in this channel i think
20:19:46 <oerjan> but ehird might be able to check that
20:23:09 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure vista's minesweeper's mine algo has changed from the earlier ones
20:23:26 <oklopol> about every 10th is passable
20:23:43 <oklopol> (also that's an underestimate)
20:24:24 <comex> http://www.ivona.com/say/Q4fIe7hL
20:25:05 <comex> http://www.ivona.com/say/x5C8Y4n0
20:25:49 <oklopol> that's getting pretty good
20:26:12 <oklopol> the messages there are a bit stupid ofc
20:26:45 <comex> no, the second one is great
20:26:50 <oerjan> sure it's not just the default options for no. bombs vs. board size which have changed?
20:27:09 <oklopol> hmm. there were no instances of me telling that.
20:27:54 <oklopol> well. i guess it's my remembering the nonexistant thing again.
20:28:11 <oklopol> and oerjan, the options have not changed
20:28:30 <oklopol> not that minesweeper can be hard
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20:33:49 <oerjan> i would have thought the mines were randomly distributed, except that i've read that if the first click is on a mine, it is moved, and that this is to the first vacant spot from the top left iirc. in the original that is.
20:34:45 <oerjan> which means that starting in the top left and then trying the one to the right is slightly more dangerous
20:35:09 <oerjan> or taking the top left second, i guess
20:35:44 <oerjan> well i'm not sure if i recall exactly right but i think the movement _wasn't_ to a random spot
20:35:46 <AnMaster> I thought it just randomly selected a game after I clicked the first place
20:35:59 <ais523> I know that you never click a mine first turn
20:36:01 <AnMaster> and tried again if it had a mine there
20:36:05 <ais523> but I don't know what method it uses to prevent that
20:36:18 <AnMaster> ais523, it could differ between implementations
20:36:21 <oerjan> well i'm sure there's a faq somewhere
20:36:30 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm referring to the Windows XP implementation
20:36:47 <ais523> I've implemented Minesweeper myself, it didn't have the first-turn exemption
20:36:51 <ais523> it's not a hard program to write!
20:37:15 <oerjan> it wouldn't be hard to do the first-turn exemption with the rest random, either
20:37:39 <AnMaster> you could place it at a random spot
20:38:03 <oerjan> you can just fill in after you click, or move it to a random spot (might need retry)
20:38:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah.. like what I just said
20:38:19 <oerjan> well that's three options
20:38:50 <oerjan> but your options didn't exhaust every possibility :D
20:39:19 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> you could place it at a random spot
20:39:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> or generate a new random game
20:39:25 <AnMaster> <oerjan> you can just fill in after you click, or move it to a random spot (might need retry)
20:39:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, you mentioned move top left before
20:40:23 <oerjan> my first option means that you don't need to generate anything before clicking, saves work
20:40:25 <jix> hmmm what would a minesweeper that allows multiple mines on one spot be like...
20:40:47 <AnMaster> jix, um hard since count would be off
20:40:54 <jix> but only in one direction
20:41:03 <oerjan> or actually maybe not... maybe generating and then moving is more efficient, since you don't need to check on every placement
20:41:53 <oerjan> they should all be equivalent statistically, which the move to top left isn't.
20:41:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, and you could all the free spots to an array and then generate a random number as an index into that array
20:42:23 <AnMaster> just don't do random() % list_size
20:42:29 <oerjan> hm true, since you have to check collisions anyhow
20:42:53 <jix> AnMaster: you can do something equivalent without wasting space for the array
20:42:55 <oerjan> ah right so you _have_ to check, might just generate afterward then
20:43:15 <jix> you generate a random number which is < the number of free spots
20:43:31 <AnMaster> jix, and then use that as an index into the nth free spot
20:43:37 <jix> iterate through all mines... and if index of mine <= randNum .... radnNum++
20:43:55 <jix> exiting early as soon as mine > randNum
20:44:09 <oerjan> jix: er that's O(n^2) to place the mines, sheesh
20:44:17 <jix> oerjan: it's about moving one mine
20:44:22 <AnMaster> btw, I have "3D snake" on my phone... anyone done 3D mines yet?
20:44:54 <oerjan> but it is still likely more inefficient than just choose and retry if collision
20:45:03 <AnMaster> idea 2: state the yield of the mine
20:45:08 <jix> oerjan: but it's worst case is O(n)
20:45:29 <AnMaster> mine sweeper with hitpoints and powerups!
20:45:35 <jix> while retry and collision has a worst case that never exits
20:45:58 <AnMaster> <jix> oerjan: but it's worst case is O(n)
20:46:17 <jix> AnMaster: to place one mine into an existing field the worst case is O(n) with my algorithm
20:46:18 <oerjan> but an average case that is excellent unless you have too many mines
20:46:39 <jix> if you use mine to place all mines
20:46:53 <oerjan> um i confused array size and number of mines somewhat
20:46:57 <jix> in that case i indeed would generate an array with free spots
20:47:05 <jix> and then choose one by random...
20:47:08 <AnMaster> get an FPGA and make an O(1) variant in hardware :P
20:47:20 <AnMaster> like a sorting network in hardware is O(1)
20:48:49 <AnMaster> anyway number of positions is usually small so that O(n) doesn't matter really
20:48:49 <oerjan> cannot be O(1) if the size is arbitrary (which a finite computer cannot handle anyway)
20:49:20 <AnMaster> I mean O doesn't matter at small sizes really
20:49:31 <AnMaster> a binary search is better than a linear search
20:49:51 <AnMaster> my tests shows a simple linear search is faster for small data sets
20:50:17 <jix> uhm a binary search is very simple to implement efficiently tho
20:50:18 <ais523> linear searches are easier to optimise, and a tighter loop
20:50:23 <ais523> they can even be unrolled if necessary
20:50:37 <ais523> come to think of it, binary search can be unrolled too, but I don't know of a compiler capable of it
20:50:42 <oerjan> whatever you just need some generic way of choosing m objects from n slots without replacement
20:50:44 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah it could probably since I was operating on a static const array of a fixed size
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20:51:35 <oerjan> error case is error case
20:51:57 <AnMaster> really the pigeonhole principle assumes the pigeons are average size...
20:52:09 <AnMaster> without food for some time you could stuff more than one in one box
20:58:14 <jix> basically you can adopt random shuffle agorithms that generate the sequence sequencially to exit after generating m elements
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21:20:53 <ehird> [20:42:23] <AnMaster> just don't do random() % list_size
21:20:57 <ehird> you said it's stupid
21:21:23 <AnMaster> ehird, for large list sizes yes
21:21:34 <ehird> no, it's fail because of the behaviour of random()
21:21:44 <ehird> specifically, modulo'ing it is retarded
21:23:28 <olsner> how are you supposed to use random() then?
21:23:49 <AnMaster> the main reason being that it won't be uniform, but also random() might be a very bad PRNG on $TARGET_LIBC
21:24:33 <AnMaster> olsner, I would recommend against it for any cryptographically sensitive applications at least ;P
21:25:14 <AnMaster> which reminds me, I need to replace random() % 4 in cfunge. I actually had plans to use FMT instead
21:25:56 <olsner> well, obviously, you need to use a known cryptographically secure prng, but for things like just generating a random list when you don't care *that* much about the randomness
21:26:22 <oerjan> % powerOf2 is presumably the worst case
21:26:45 <AnMaster> http://www.math.sci.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/~m-mat/MT/SFMT/index.html
21:27:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, err wouldn't % powerOf2 be the most uniform case?
21:27:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, assuming RAND_MAX == a power of two
21:27:48 <oerjan> no, because the low bits are what's often broken
21:28:21 <ais523> in fact, the standard random number generator on one widely-used old version of UNIX alternated even and odd numbes
21:28:45 <ais523> the high-order bits on such generators are more random-acting, though
21:28:48 <oerjan> that's what i referred to i guess
21:29:02 <AnMaster> bit shift it to get the middle bits?
21:30:08 <AnMaster> which means you need to figure out how to do this based on limits.h
21:32:24 <AnMaster> #if LONG_BIT < 8\n#error "Don't be silly..."\n#endif\nint myval = (random() >> (LONG_BIT - 5)) & 24;
21:32:46 <AnMaster> what do you think of the idea?
21:33:45 <ais523> random() / (RAND_MAX / max_I_want)
21:33:50 <ais523> is the standard formula
21:34:04 <ais523> and a lot simpler than what you're trying there, I think
21:34:18 <ais523> so I meant that you were complicating things more than you needed to be
21:34:33 * AnMaster is tired... why does random() / (RAND_MAX / max_I_want) work
21:35:13 <oerjan> it probably isn't quite uniform if max_I_want is not a power of 2
21:35:23 <ais523> but you can't get uniform then without rerolling
21:36:13 <oerjan> i guess checking if result > max_I_want then rerolling does it
21:36:14 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on what your next comment will be
21:36:22 <ehird> AnMaster: "It looked like lisp at first"
21:36:27 <ehird> i should name some software something that'll make people never use it. like, "Enron"
21:37:21 <ehird> yes, but it had parentheses, and alphanumeric names for things commonly done as symbols
21:37:26 <ehird> and the prompt looked lisp-esque
21:37:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well / is floating point...
21:37:36 <ehird> oerjan: "Auschwitz"
21:37:56 <ehird> "The Auschwitz compiler for the Hitler inferral programming language is now released."
21:37:58 <AnMaster> ehird, should I google after "Enron"?
21:38:04 <AnMaster> since you said "wants to never use it"
21:38:39 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not. sheesh.
21:38:54 <AnMaster> ehird, idea name it 2goatse1cup
21:39:15 <ehird> hmm, maybe "The Nigger-Faggot deductive logic system"
21:39:25 <ehird> yep, I think I've cracked it
21:39:55 <ehird> yeah, I'll sue microsoft
21:40:11 <ehird> "The Nigger Faggot Corporation, creators of the Nigger Faggot deductive logic system, today sued Microsoft."
21:40:34 <ehird> "Their spokesman, Faggoty McNigger, had this to say: 'Microsoft is infringing on our intellectual property of "being total douchebags" and "offending everyone".'"
21:40:49 <ehird> Slereah_: i'm the british branch.
21:41:06 <Slereah_> Did you watch Gay Nigger from Outer Space?
21:41:45 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayniggers_from_Outer_Space
21:41:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:43:04 <ehird> [[It is said that in this review, Payne described scenes featuring the protagonist, Gay Nigger Jim, raping a toilet until he explodes, and a musical number entitled "Gay Niggers Eat Pigs and Fly on Penises Made Out of Ham and Brown Ham, Because They're Gay Niggers."]]
21:43:09 <ehird> honestly, I think it'd be better if that were true.
21:44:21 <oerjan> GNAA sounds like a troll name
21:44:38 <Slereah_> Gay Nigger Association of America
21:44:39 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Outer_Space btw
21:44:55 * Slereah_ salutes those Internet Superheroes
21:45:05 <AnMaster> Slereah_, please ban them if they ever try to attack your irc network
21:45:35 <AnMaster> really I know from experience they don't have an unlimited amount of proxies
21:45:46 <ehird> [21:45:05] <AnMaster> Slereah_, please ban them if they ever try to attack your irc network
21:45:54 <ehird> stupidest line said all day
21:46:24 <ehird> ^ that was intentional
21:46:35 <Slereah_> ehird : http://jun.2chan.net:81/b/src/1235462364005.jpg
21:46:59 <AnMaster> Slereah_, should be made into a motivational poster
21:47:09 <AnMaster> Slereah_, or a lolkitten image
21:47:18 <ehird> The intentions are rather more sinister, AnMaster.
21:47:22 <Slereah_> Lolcats are a thing of the past, AnMaster
21:47:30 <Slereah_> They have degenerated in mainstream culture.
21:47:44 <Slereah_> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers8/funnypicturesyoumaybemisq2.jpg
21:48:12 <AnMaster> Slereah_, so what is the current thing then?
21:48:18 <ehird> how many files do you have in there Slereah_
21:48:23 <AnMaster> Slereah_, all your base is "out" I believe
21:48:32 <ehird> your site is like a repository of... stuff.
21:48:50 <ehird> "Mardi 24 juillet 2001, 3eme millenaire."
21:48:51 <Slereah_> There are plenty of current things.
21:48:57 <ehird> "I became a millionaire 24th july 2001"
21:49:06 <Slereah_> ehird : It's not really my site nowadays
21:49:24 <ehird> is my translation correct :DD
21:49:55 <ehird> wut dus it rly say
21:50:49 <Slereah_> Tuesday 24th july 2001 3rd milleunium
21:50:59 <ehird> what is the context
21:51:16 <Slereah_> I was trying to put online some translations
21:54:26 -!- jix has quit ("...").
21:59:04 <oerjan> as opposed to Tuesday 24th july 2001 4th millennium
21:59:57 <oerjan> well i guess technically the Tuesday has the same problem
22:08:45 <AnMaster> poll: I want to read a new web comic. Should o go archive reading order of the stick or try to find some other one?
22:11:23 <ehird> though nobody's heard of it...
22:11:50 <AnMaster> that name *does* sound familiar
22:12:02 <ehird> http://hackles.org/cgi-bin/archives.pl?request=1
22:12:13 <ehird> it gets better as it goes.
22:12:16 <ehird> like, umm, every other comic.
22:12:26 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, since jan 04
22:12:36 <ehird> what was that yeah to
22:12:37 <AnMaster> read it all in like 2006 or so
22:12:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I read part of 1/0
22:13:08 <ehird> 1/0's probably my favourite comic, aside from the small part where it seems to start advocating monotheism
22:13:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well I haven't read all of 1/0, I gave up around comic 30 or so iirc
22:13:44 * oerjan doesn't recall that part
22:13:51 <ehird> 30 out of 1000 comics is not very much reading :P
22:13:58 <ehird> oerjan: the "fourth wall" plotline
22:14:29 <oerjan> of course it _did_ explore the concept of the stupidity of rejecting monotheism if everyone _could_ see evidence of god
22:14:44 <oerjan> but that's not exactly relevant to the real world
22:14:46 <ehird> oerjan: near the end it pretty much advocated monotheism
22:15:06 <ehird> I say this with knowledge of other strong implications Tailsteak is a monotheist, though
22:15:14 <ehird> oklopol: I forget the comic numbers
22:15:23 <oklopol> so it's kinda like south park is republican?
22:15:39 <ehird> wait, south park is republican?
22:15:41 <ehird> now this is news to me
22:15:46 <oklopol> i think Slereah_ said something like that
22:16:11 <oklopol> or something else, anyway that they were advocating something anyway
22:16:15 <Slereah_> South Park people are libertarians
22:16:25 <ehird> libertarianism is hardly republican
22:16:44 <oklopol> republicanism, libertanianism, urophilia, monotheism, who cares
22:16:57 <oklopol> point is clearly they do not feel strongly one way or the other
22:17:41 <oklopol> wouldn't it be uranophilic?
22:17:53 <oerjan> oklopol: hey that was my comment
22:18:26 <ehird> what the fuck does that mean
22:18:42 <ehird> nope, presumably because your jokes are terrible.
22:18:57 <oerjan> http://code.google.com/p/haspy/
22:19:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, now I didn't know about that
22:19:08 <oklopol> oerjan: and this here is my comment!
22:19:08 <ehird> oerjan: ooh, sexually attractive.
22:19:20 <oerjan> oklopol: you stole it from me!
22:19:22 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/haspy/source/browse/#svn/trunk%3Fstate%3Dclosed
22:19:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, but actually kind of related
22:19:57 <ehird> it's... compelling
22:20:10 <oerjan> it was my second attempt after checking if "haspys" meant something
22:20:37 <oklopol> like it when you don't know why people have pee i guess
22:20:52 <oklopol> you like to laugh at spies.
22:21:18 <ehird> "H.A.S.P-y"-phillic, where H.A.S.P.Y. = Haskell and Sudo Python | Yes
22:21:25 <ehird> you like constructing nonsensical pipelines.
22:21:59 <oerjan> rube-goldberg pipelines
22:22:12 <oerjan> hm i guess there's no hyphen
22:22:50 <oklopol> AnMaster: i think we're ready to hear what haspy means.
22:23:14 <AnMaster> haskell and python <AnMaster> oerjan, but actually kind of related
22:23:52 <oklopol> oh. so it was *that* related.
22:24:00 <ehird> that's... rather stupid.
22:24:09 <AnMaster> ehird, hapyphilic is harder to say
22:24:10 <ehird> for one, it wasn't funny... for the other, haskell and python aren't my favourite languages
22:24:12 <oerjan> hah that's _so_ out there, i mean i _knew_ it, er...
22:24:26 <AnMaster> ehird, "<AnMaster> ehird, it isn't a joke... <ehird> for one, it wasn't funny..."
22:24:33 <ehird> if it wasn't a joke, what was it
22:24:47 <AnMaster> not everything has to be funny
22:24:52 <ehird> umm, that's not much of an observation
22:25:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, you could debate the truth in it
22:25:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you're valgrindphillic
22:25:21 <ehird> see, you use valgrind sometimes
22:25:25 <ehird> what do you mean it's not funny
22:25:27 <ehird> it was AN OBSERVATION
22:25:28 <oerjan> no, not everything has to be funny. some things need to be cried over for days and days.
22:25:32 <AnMaster> ehird, nah. I'm valgrindophillic
22:25:44 <ehird> no, it makes it sound more like a gay sex practice.
22:25:49 <ehird> if that's your thing...
22:26:04 <ehird> val-grind-o-phillic
22:26:18 <AnMaster> ehird, as long as that is an i and not an a
22:26:32 <oklopol> does "valgrind" come from "wall grinder"
22:26:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, no, from Nordic mythology
22:26:48 <ehird> valgrind comes from "Val, the Grind-o-Master"
22:27:08 <oklopol> is that where AnMaster got his name?
22:27:13 <ehird> no, I'm busy joking.
22:27:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/faq.html#faq.whence
22:27:27 <ehird> he's "Val's Little Brother, a Grind-o-Master"
22:27:31 <oerjan> incidentally it's not that far off from being a plausible norwegian name
22:27:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/faq.html#faq.whence
22:27:58 <AnMaster> also http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/faq.html#faq.pronounce
22:28:11 <AnMaster> but every Norwegian or Swedish person could figure that out
22:28:20 <AnMaster> I guess ehird would need to know it is a short i
22:28:23 <oklopol> heh, for a second there i thought it was the same link a third time for those who weren't highlighted yet :P
22:28:30 <oerjan> darn and i thought it meant value grinder :D
22:28:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh do you think that is needed?
22:29:51 <ehird> wow, this lisp compile is taking along time
22:30:07 <ehird> over 32595 lines of compiler output as it compiles tons of dependencies and everything
22:30:15 <oklopol> pretty stupid faq btw, doesn't even say what valgrind *is*
22:30:28 <oklopol> maybe it's not asked frequently for some reason
22:30:46 <oklopol> AnMaster: in fact you should probably link it to oerjan again
22:30:47 <oerjan> ehird: taking along time? have it give it back at _once_!
22:30:57 <oklopol> because "oerjan: darn and i thought it meant value grinder :D" is also in the faq
22:31:11 <ehird> valgrind = valgrind grinder
22:31:17 <ehird> the val is an abbreviation of valgrind
22:31:18 <oerjan> oklopol: er i read that before saying it
22:32:41 <oerjan> btw val = battleground, grind = gate
22:32:45 <oklopol> oerjan: 1) i'm joking 2) your mom 3) that's irrelevant because of your face 4) if you'd read it you wouldn't have said "and", you would've indicated somehow that you were part of the majority who thought that, perhaps with one of ithkuil's fine suffices.
22:32:46 <ehird> "Why I think Bush planned the 2001-09-11 World Trade attacks"
22:33:05 <ehird> oklopol: teach me ithkuil suffices!
22:34:39 <oklopol> it's funny how everyone says the people who believe that conspiracy thing are idiots, but no one actually explains the major holes they point out.
22:34:48 <oklopol> i mean i don't care one way or the other, just objectively speaking.
22:34:53 <oerjan> ehird: btw you're away
22:35:13 <oerjan> but /whois gives an away message
22:35:20 <oklopol> also if that was recent, yeah, maybe the subject could be dropped already
22:35:31 <ais523> ehird: you are away, your bouncer is lying to you
22:35:44 <ehird> ais523: I unawayed, silly.
22:35:48 <oklopol> ehird: i don't know any of them off the top of my head brain.
22:37:13 <oerjan> oklopol: what about the other brain?
22:38:52 <oklopol> you're closer to my fingers, why don't you ask them
22:39:12 <ehird> 38612 lines of output...
22:39:14 <oerjan> hello fingers, is oklopol taking his medications properly?
22:39:58 <oerjan> hm i conclude the fingers must be taking too much of something
22:40:10 <oerjan> maybe the medication is clogging in them
22:41:23 <ehird> ; compilation unit finished ; caught 10 WARNING conditions ; printed 3273 notes
22:42:40 <ais523> ehird: what were you compiling?
22:42:58 <ehird> I just did: CL-USER> (require :weblocks-demo)
22:43:03 <ehird> but i'd just installed weblocks
22:43:09 <ehird> and its 5 bajillion dependencies
22:43:12 <ehird> so it compiled them all
22:43:19 <ehird> took about half an hour
22:44:53 <ehird> alien technology is built for those with patiecne
22:48:28 <oerjan> patiecne is an especially painful form of acne
22:50:07 <ehird> Please add '/Users/ehird/Code/oracle/oracle/' to asdf:*central-registry* before you proceed.
22:50:14 <ehird> I have to do that for every app?
22:53:24 <AnMaster> http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/faq.html#faq.whence http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/faq.html#faq.pronounce
22:54:12 <AnMaster> <oklopol> pretty stupid faq btw, doesn't even say what valgrind *is* <-- err it does that right at the main page...
22:54:52 * oerjan hands AnMaster the swatter
22:55:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, like at http://valgrind.org/
22:55:35 <AnMaster> where most people end up *FIRST*
22:55:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, I still hold references to it!
22:56:20 * AnMaster gets one using a reference and then swats another reference
22:56:30 <oklopol> also it's visually pleasing
22:56:48 * oerjan uses a copying gc to move the swatter, making all external refs broken
22:57:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, I can just use oerjan.ResolveHandle(hSwatter);
22:58:17 <AnMaster> or why is there otherwise an Ex variant?
22:58:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i meant the actual game, but sure font too
22:59:04 <ehird> AnMaster: WORDLY KNOWLEDGABLE
22:59:17 <ehird> AnMaster: but you _do_ know the number of hairs on rms's beard.
22:59:29 <oklopol> "lol you can't be serious? well. let's take a game everyone knows then"
22:59:32 <ehird> does AnMaster live in a faraday cage?
22:59:51 <ehird> of course you do: you see one every day.
22:59:53 <ehird> because you live in one.
23:00:05 <oklopol> AnMaster: blackjack is as well-known as chess
23:00:22 <AnMaster> ehird, nah this house is not using a metal frame, it uses logs in the core
23:00:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, I actually heard the name before
23:00:40 <AnMaster> I just had no clue about details
23:00:52 <oklopol> okay 36 vs. 43 well-knownity points
23:01:53 <AnMaster> ehird, did you know most computer cases act as faraday cages? I bet you do.
23:02:20 <ehird> I ran a computer without a case
23:02:33 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and there are completely plastic cases too
23:02:52 <ehird> I imagine this iMac is just plastic.
23:03:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I know my PC case is mostly steel
23:03:17 <ehird> Mac Pros are metal through and through
23:03:22 <AnMaster> and I seen lots of PC cases that were plastic with a steel box inside
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00:01:33 <ehird> it's on bf algos pag
00:01:37 <ehird> http://esolangs.org
00:02:21 <[helloworld]> i mean something like if i type Z from keyboard it should return me A
00:03:22 <oerjan> that's a little ... vague
00:03:37 <ehird> do you know what modulo is ?
00:04:23 <ehird> but it's on the wiki, if you are
00:05:02 <[helloworld]> or something like that, i don't remember ascii values now
00:05:36 <[helloworld]> so maybe whats the trickier method to do that: read char if it's Z return A, otherwise return that char?
00:06:00 <kerlo> Add a constant, take it modulo 26, add another constant.
00:06:42 <[helloworld]> kerlo, yes, i meant that, but ehird said it's wrong way
00:07:11 <[helloworld]> maybe it's better method using smething like if()?
00:07:16 <ehird> what you're saying doesn't make much sense, really, but for {Z->A;x->x}, modulo would work.
00:07:17 <kerlo> To be precise: add 14, take it modulo 26, add 65.
00:07:46 <[helloworld]> ehird, do you think is better way to solve that?
00:07:59 <oerjan> [helloworld]: you're meaning rot-N of letters? that's not the same as modulo but modulo can be used to implement it. in bf that's probably overkill though.
00:08:00 <ehird> Just check its value
00:08:00 <kerlo> [helloworld]: my modulo method works perfectly fine if you know the input is A-Z.
00:08:06 <ehird> [helloworld]: try this
00:08:40 <oklopol> well there's a 1/26 chance you're right
00:08:50 <[helloworld]> kerlo, ik now that but i have problems with codein' modulo in BF
00:08:57 <kerlo> No, the chance is decidedly greater. :-P
00:09:00 <ehird> i just told you that
00:09:12 <oerjan> ehird: the wiki is practically down
00:09:15 <oklopol> kerlo: oh was 14 for adding one?
00:09:30 <oerjan> i couldn't get the page a moment ago
00:09:39 <ehird> [helloworld]: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#Divmod_algorithm
00:09:43 <oklopol> i assumed rot-13, because clearly you'd add 14 to rotate by 13.
00:09:45 <ehird> just ignore the div result
00:10:00 <[helloworld]> oklopol, so my algorithm will be do something like rot-1
00:10:10 <ehird> for all other letters, it'd id
00:10:17 <ehird> all you're doing is s/Z/A/
00:10:56 <oklopol> [helloworld]: kinda trivial to do that special case, just inc, and check if z+1
00:11:31 <oklopol> ...you can do an if right?
00:12:02 <ehird> oklopol is so funny
00:12:23 <oklopol> i didn't know what he was referring to.
00:12:24 <[helloworld]> i have been searching if condition if brainfuck but really can't find :/
00:12:32 <oklopol> right, so that's your prob
00:12:38 <oklopol> just check the algo page or think about it a bit
00:13:04 <oklopol> one solution is to use one bit of extra state info to get the loop to be done just once
00:13:04 <[helloworld]> ok, thanks a lot, i gona read it and try to code it ;) cya
00:13:10 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7zip9/i_was_reading_through_some_old_python_mailing/c07umsq
00:13:13 <ehird> higher order functions
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00:13:50 <oklopol> anyway ehird i don't really see how you can nag about my not being sure what he meant after being a jackass to him until that point
00:14:05 <oklopol> or maybe you actually didn't get him, dunno, same thing.
00:14:07 <ehird> i was being a jackass? news to me.
00:14:18 <ehird> he wasn't stating his problem clearly. i told him this.
00:14:34 <oklopol> you see i'm fucking pissed at myself atm.
00:14:46 <oklopol> and because i'm also very tired, i can't separate you from me.
00:14:50 <oklopol> because we're one of a kind
00:15:40 <ehird> oklopol; so are you green
00:16:39 <oklopol> shall i assume the literal sense?
00:18:16 <oklopol> well anyway, i'm green in all senses and nonsenses
00:18:29 <oklopol> and my computer is so hot it hurts my lap
00:19:20 <Slereah_> Are you hot in the lap, oklopol? <3
00:20:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't get 1/0 strip 130...
00:21:18 <ehird> Either nonsense or a reference to a contemporary comic circa 2001.
00:21:24 <ehird> Which I have no idea.
00:22:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: it refers to a jar mentioned in one of the very first comics
00:22:18 <ehird> Well, x is a contemporary of x...
00:22:20 <oerjan> which indeed is taken from another comic
00:22:56 <oerjan> the jar and barnacle jones (iirc) was stolen from another comic
00:23:02 <oerjan> as the very first characters
00:23:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah I didn't get barnacle jones...
00:23:19 <oerjan> (well the jar wasn't a character)
00:23:34 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, read the annotations
00:23:38 <ehird> they pop up every few strips
00:23:51 <ehird> AnMaster: you are reading the undefined.net/1/0/ version right
00:24:11 <ehird> they appear right below the comic :P
00:24:20 <ehird> Check out this comic for an explanation of "Barnacle" Jones' origins!
00:24:20 <ehird> I have yet to get the authour's explicit permission to use this strip this way. If anyone knows how I can get in touch with him, please help!
00:24:25 <ehird> the link: http://www.undefined.net/1/0/history.gif
00:28:46 * oerjan is a bit sorry for cracking Puzzlang
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00:30:44 <oerjan> it's a new language, posted today
00:31:50 <oerjan> which the inventor said was almost impossible to program, but it isn't.
00:32:06 <oerjan> unless i messed up my bf translation
00:33:33 * oerjan swats himself -----###
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00:39:53 <kerlo> If I understand correctly, it's easy to decrement a whole bunch of times and then do something.
00:40:19 <kerlo> Just alternate between blank lines, lines containing nothing but -, and lines that actually contain useful stuff.
00:41:29 <oerjan> yep, and then the rest of it is to note that a sufficient large triangle can increment
00:49:13 <oerjan> hm it is also easy to do several useful things on one line, since all the decrements are done on the previous line
00:53:18 <kerlo> Don't call something difficult unless you invented it three years ago, it's simple, and still nobody knows whether it's Turing-complete or not. :-)
00:58:25 * kerlo goes through all the languages older than /// in [[Category:Unknown computational class]] and tries to determine whether they're Turing-complete or not
01:06:17 * kerlo dismisses 3D as ill-defined despite having an interpreter
01:07:26 <kerlo> And now I'm feeling sick, so I'm going to go take a placebo.
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06:13:03 <GregorR> Now that I've started hosting my projects at codu, my barrier for starting a new project has gotten so low that I start stupid projects I'll never finish.
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09:09:19 <oklopol> GregorR: welcome to the club of the cool
09:30:39 <oklopol> actually i just have a todo list nowadays.
09:31:16 <oklopol> used to have a programming projects folder, but that was ...suboptimal.
09:31:24 <oklopol> well okay naturally i have that too
10:06:59 <psygnisfive> i have a programming folder inside my projects folder.
10:09:16 <oklopol> yes i do something like that too
10:09:34 <oklopol> actually i split by programming language, which is stupid imo.
10:09:38 <oklopol> i'd never do that if i were me
10:10:44 <psygnisfive> my projects folder: blog stuff, conlangs, conworlds, cyberbrains, efc archives, fashion, formal memetics, iptv shows, linguistics, megacities, philosophy, political writing, programming, sinogram fonts, t-shirts
10:11:53 <psygnisfive> inside programming: antigravity, ectoplasm, evolutionary algorithms, human-language like pl, linguistics db, lisp machine, misc javascript, oomysql, reactance, teaching js
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10:24:20 <psygnisfive> pics ive saved from various sources that embody certain stylistic elements that i want to experiment with
10:24:25 <oklopol> (...are you gay or something?)
10:25:59 <oklopol> i'll poke anything that has six tails
10:26:53 <oklopol> i don't really play pokemon, i thought i'd finish one of them at some point, because all my finnirl friends were playing it
10:27:02 <oklopol> but i fucked up all the save files like 10 times
10:27:07 <psygnisfive> well no, dont, you probably dont understand finnish grammar :p
10:27:30 <oklopol> i don't even understand what your understanding is.
10:27:50 <psygnisfive> you obviously speak finnish, but thats not the same as knowing the grammar.
10:28:10 <oklopol> what's "knowing the grammar"? i know the rules.
10:28:24 <oklopol> but i know them in english too, that apparently isn't "knowing the grammar"
10:28:58 <psygnisfive> could you explain to me what tree transformations are going on in the production of a finnish sentence?
10:31:08 <oklopol> (but i do know more than pretty much any non-linquist you'll find here [if you allow me to lie a little])
10:31:21 <oklopol> {i don't actually know that, it's just my experience}
10:32:04 <psygnisfive> could you give me a fairly detailed account of nominal morphology and the times when the various morphs are used
10:33:16 <oklopol> i do have something to say about that, but nothing fairly detailed, i think i know the big picture about that if i understood the q.
10:34:30 <oklopol> should probably study that, the problem is i hear the introductory courses are hell, teaching trees and all that to people who liked writing pretty essays in high school.
10:35:07 <psygnisfive> its not that bad but a lot of people dont understand what theyre getting themselves into
10:36:10 <oklopol> do realize i haven't actually taken linguistics courses, and the guy who i heard this from has a tendency to leave the lecture because of something the lecturer said that he considered too trivial.
10:36:52 <oklopol> it's the god i'm wasting my time here reflex
10:37:41 <oklopol> (i don't know about you but in our uni it's pretty much standard practise to leave whenever you want to)
10:40:01 <oklopol> well naturally some lecturers may give you the evil eye if you make too much noise, but attendance is not compulsory, so.
10:40:41 <oklopol> not really considered rude here, at least among me.
10:40:49 <psygnisfive> its not compulsory here, usually, tho some profs factor attendance into grades
10:41:41 <oklopol> our courses are usually entirely about the exam, and you can get extra points for exercises or projects.
10:45:36 <oklopol> exercises are usually compulsory to some percentage though.
10:46:03 <oklopol> so in practise there's a lot of compulsory attendance.
10:47:29 <oklopol> (also this is just the it department, the others are much less "free")
10:50:02 <oklopol> yeah it means you're a hummingbird
10:51:26 <oklopol> "deadline 3, computation time 6"
10:51:32 <oklopol> something doesn't look right
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16:58:37 <AnMaster> how do you escape a ? in a URL?
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16:59:03 <AnMaster> web archive is acting up because of it....
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18:48:55 <oerjan> <AnMaster> hrrm oerjan not here...
18:53:24 <AnMaster> I think IWC jumped the frog when the universe exploded
18:53:37 <oerjan> in case that was what you were going to ask
18:54:03 <oerjan> well it jumped the shark a long time ago
18:54:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes in the mythbuster theme iirc
18:54:27 <AnMaster> point is, I don't think it is as funny as the early strips any more
18:55:47 <oerjan> the featureless mountains were a nice touch :D
18:57:22 <oerjan> well it is a bit long-winded
18:58:54 <AnMaster> get normal universe back before mid-March please..
18:59:34 <oklopol> oh you mean kinda like *your mom*
19:06:16 <oklopol> also "jumping the frog" was kinda funny after reading where the term comes from
19:06:47 <oklopol> then again, what isn't these days
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23:18:58 <oerjan> fucking wiki locking up just as i'm saving :<
23:19:39 <oerjan> apparently insulting it helps.
23:20:35 <oklopol> can you say the f word on irc? :|
23:20:46 <oerjan> it's been done before, i'm sure
23:22:19 <oklopol> i'm getting a deja vu from when i searched for "and" once.
23:23:07 <oerjan> by a remarkable coincidence, "and" has never been used (although it has been mentioned)
23:23:38 <oklopol> ah, they were all instances of "brainfuck"
23:24:04 <oerjan> i am sure ehird used -fucking- as an infix the other day
23:24:25 <oklopol> yes but he used -brain- in an earlier message
23:24:42 <oerjan> so it was really a brainfuck circumfix, you say?
23:25:09 <AnMaster> a (not very) interesting speed test:
23:25:11 <AnMaster> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null& pid=$! ; sleep 30; kill -USR1 $pid; sleep 1; kill $pid
23:28:30 * oerjan supposes correcting bad language _is_ appropriate for a Playground program
23:30:13 <GregorR> STOP YOUR FUCKING CURSING ON IRC OR I FUCKING SWEAR I'LL TEAR OFF YOUR GOD DAMN HEAD AND SHIT IN YOUR SKULL YOU MOTHERFUCKERS
23:32:00 <oklopol> yes, it was probably something deeperer
23:32:52 <oerjan> it was mock-ironic, i guess
23:33:35 <oerjan> not to be confused with macaronic
23:34:02 <oerjan> there is no post mock-ironic. that's the end of humor.
23:34:13 <oerjan> it dies there, horribly.
23:34:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah now what was that quote...
23:34:42 <AnMaster> probably from before I began logging irc
23:34:55 <oklopol> what quote, i can search again
23:35:17 <AnMaster> this was from before my time in #esoteric
23:35:34 <oerjan> ironically, the quote was lost
23:36:25 <oerjan> also not to be confused with macarenic. hm that _might_ be an even later stage.
23:36:58 <AnMaster> /mnt/cdrom $ bzgrep -i alice */*.bz2 | grep -i post
23:37:07 <AnMaster> since it didn't seem to be #init
23:37:23 <oerjan> oklopol: lots of singing and dancing
23:37:25 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm just suggesting.
23:37:46 <oklopol> oerjan: so from the song, just wondered about the zombies
23:38:01 <AnMaster> it is quite possible the quote is too old for me to have a log of it
23:38:09 <oerjan> oklopol: that was an afterthought. after death, that is.
23:38:32 <AnMaster> I began IRC in 2004 or so, my logs go back to 2005
23:38:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: perhaps it was a past life regression, from ancient greece or egypt
23:39:26 <oerjan> i guess that would be mummy humor
23:40:31 <oerjan> no, just dead. also, she was never fat, very skinny.
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23:47:33 <AnMaster> someone were discussing a post-modern book, and someone mentioned something about post-humorous... And they found some persons in books that were post-modern or post-humours. Then someone asked what you were if you were post-modern AND post-humorous. Answer: Dead.
23:47:50 <AnMaster> can't find the full (and funny) quote
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23:49:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, posthumous is something else
23:51:19 <oerjan> GregorR: well if you're also from the maghreb area...
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23:52:16 <oerjan> lots of post-hummus people in gaza these days
23:52:35 <AnMaster> firefox was using around 2 GB memory
23:52:40 <AnMaster> explains all the swap trashing
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23:57:38 <GregorR> I had Trac 0.11 on codu.org for a long time, it routinely chewed up all my memory and killed everything while responding to queries in a timely "I'll get to it when I feel like it" sort of way.
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23:58:07 <AnMaster> GregorR, hope you reported this as a bug?
23:58:16 <GregorR> It's been reported numerous times.
23:58:47 <GregorR> And they say "Trac 0.11 uses a new rendering engine which takes a bit more memory. In most situations the difference shouldn't be noticeable, and we choose to ignore your situation."
23:58:53 <GregorR> (Not in so many words :P )
23:59:34 <GregorR> It was /always/ absurdly slow, so yeah.
23:59:55 <AnMaster> IMO all apps should have upper limits on how much they will allocate
00:00:07 <AnMaster> not just for the sorting algorithm
00:00:25 <GregorR> They do. It's 2^{word size} :P
00:01:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, seriously, pre-OSX had a good thing then, you could know for sure it would keep within limits
00:01:37 <AnMaster> each app would have a minimum and maximum size set in the info box for the program file
00:01:48 <AnMaster> the OS would give it something between those when the app was started
00:02:05 <AnMaster> to change you would have to quit the app, open the info box and change the values, start the app again
00:02:25 <oklopol> that indeed does sound pretty stupid!
00:03:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, talking about Mac OS 6-9 (and probably older ones, but never used them. and yes it is technically System 6, System 7, Mac OS 8, Mac OS 9...)
00:03:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, it meant you never ran into swap trash
00:03:31 <AnMaster> of course you had to reboot to change virtual memory size
00:03:42 <AnMaster> doesn't windows also force it?
00:03:56 <AnMaster> while linux can change any time you want
00:04:13 <AnMaster> actually not sure about page file size in Windows
00:04:42 <oklopol> i also don't know whether you need to reboot to change the size of virtual memory
00:04:49 <AnMaster> well pretty sure you need(ed) to restart in windows to change the size
00:05:12 <AnMaster> and Mac OS virtual memory == Windows pagefile, == *nix swap
00:05:40 <oklopol> if they chose it badly, i'll just buy a new computer.
00:06:43 <oklopol> if i need to look beneath the abstraction, the abstraction is bad.
00:07:35 <oklopol> i try to keep the abstractions i make and the abstractions i use separate
00:09:39 * AnMaster wonders if he should optionally support using hugepagetlb thing for allocation in cfunge
00:10:05 <oklopol> translation lookaside buffer?
00:10:10 <AnMaster> if tlb cache currently has issues with overflowing it could help speed a bit
00:10:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, yeah it allows you to get larger pages
00:10:28 <AnMaster> than the standard 4096 byte ones
00:10:42 <oklopol> no that's not what a tlb is
00:11:13 <AnMaster> /usr/src/linux/Documentation/vm/hugetlbpage.txt
00:11:47 <AnMaster> too many pages and the cache can't fit all pages used by app
00:12:13 <AnMaster> thus you could save some tiny amount of time by using fewer, but larger, pages
00:12:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, I will use oprofile tomorrow to check tlb misses
00:12:40 <AnMaster> to see if it is worthwhile at all
00:13:17 <AnMaster> ehird. Look above. Insane micro optimising ^
00:13:54 <oklopol> anyway i don't really care for that kinda optimization
00:14:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, well really what would be useful I guess is changing stack direction
00:14:26 <AnMaster> copying strings to it means reversing
00:14:39 <AnMaster> that is what the current bottleneck is
00:14:56 <AnMaster> however making it grow down introduces other issues
00:15:08 <AnMaster> like growing it not being a simple realloc()
00:15:08 <oklopol> but not because it's micro-optimization, caching just doesn't fit my mental calculation model. maybe because the usual computation models don't have anything ilke it.
00:15:35 <oklopol> s/calculation/computation/
00:16:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, that is the difference between "theoretical model" and "model useful in real life"
00:16:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, still I'd say making string copying not have to swap string direction...
00:16:46 <oklopol> meh, no asymptotical difference
00:17:10 <AnMaster> because you can copy in word size
00:17:38 <oklopol> *yawn*, let the compiler worry about that
00:17:39 <AnMaster> to get 128-bit copying on x86/amd64
00:17:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, I will, but it can't do it atm
00:17:59 <oklopol> now that's something i do like.
00:18:03 <AnMaster> and strings need to be *REVERSED*
00:18:28 <oklopol> *WHY* do they need to be reversed?
00:18:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, because they are 0"gnirts" in cfunge and my stack implementation grows upwards
00:18:56 <AnMaster> which is what I want to change
00:19:11 <AnMaster> so I can just memcpy() or such
00:20:46 <AnMaster> 2008-03-21/FreeNode-#esoteric.log.bz2:okt 31 23:20:13 <EhirD`> ah yes -- quoting alice in wonderland. The post-ironic hippy way to be cool on the internet.
00:20:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: What is the big question about the meaning of life, the universe and everything?
00:21:13 <oerjan> well it was worth a shot
00:21:54 <AnMaster> nov 06 02:39:21 <oerjan> "We're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know that I am mad?" asked Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
00:22:00 <oerjan> oklopol: maybe there aren't any nearby. you were a lizard, right?
00:22:15 <AnMaster> okt 31 23:19:45 <oerjan> "We're all mad here. I am mad. You're mad." "How do you know that I am mad?" asked Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
00:22:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, you were obsessed with that line?
00:22:34 <AnMaster> okt 31 23:20:13 <EhirD`> ah yes -- quoting alice in wonderland. The post-ironic hippy way to be cool on the internet.
00:22:39 <oklopol> oerjan: i mean i don't have the whole sense. of smelling people.
00:22:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: it fits #esoteric so well
00:23:02 <AnMaster> quoting Terry Pratchett -> <EhirD`> no, that's the post-hippy ironic way
00:23:17 <AnMaster> post-hippy post-ironic way -> <EhirD`> killing yourself
00:24:23 <AnMaster> I have stuff to do tomorrow morning. For values of morning in the range like 11:00
00:24:44 <oerjan> oklopol: your haiku misses the metric a bit
00:26:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is the name for stuff like hexameter and pentameter and such
00:28:07 <AnMaster> btw: Iambic pentameter > haiku
00:28:41 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(poetry)
01:57:50 <GregorR> Blank verse is better than rhyming,
01:57:55 <GregorR> For there's no need to worry of timing,
01:58:17 <GregorR> Is that it's just an excuse for lazy people to write prose and call it poetry.
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02:21:15 <oerjan> Or sometimes // Double slashes // Just for conciseness.
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10:32:17 <ais523> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7908498.stm haha
10:41:21 <AnMaster> ais523, quite interesting speed test: dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null& pid=$! ; sleep 30; kill -USR1 $pid; sleep 1; kill $pid
10:41:37 <AnMaster> on FreeBSD replace USR1 with INFO
10:41:52 <ais523> why are you sending sigusr1 to dd?
10:42:00 <AnMaster> ais523, because it dumps stats
10:42:15 <AnMaster> 20219142656 bytes (20 GB) copied, 30.0494 s, 673 MB/s too
10:42:21 <ais523> also, you don't want that to run too much, your /dev will end up running out of zeros
10:45:47 <pikhq> ais523: Also, your bit bucket will fill up.
10:46:04 <ais523> pikhq: most of the parts of this laptop are starting to break, anyway
10:46:08 <ais523> I think the bit bucket is leaky
10:46:20 <ais523> and the more zeros in there, the more pressure on the leaks and the faster they get out
10:47:38 <AnMaster> 2.6.23 and later recycles from /dev/null
10:47:58 <AnMaster> all zeros are sent for using in /dev/zero
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10:48:20 <AnMaster> ais523, did you miss what I said?
10:48:32 <AnMaster> <ais523> and the more zeros in there, the more pressure on the leaks and the faster they get out
10:48:32 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> no you are both wrong
10:48:32 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> 2.6.23 and later recycles from /dev/null
10:48:32 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> all zeros are sent for using in /dev/zero
10:48:51 <ais523> I was wondering when someone would think of recycling
10:49:19 <AnMaster> ais523, other bits are used for other stuff, usually /dev/random and /dev/urandom
10:49:42 <ais523> wouldn't that leave /dev/random spewing out more ones than zeros?
10:50:05 <AnMaster> ais523, random gets 0 from the zero buffer when it needs it
10:50:31 * AnMaster wonders what /dev/cpu_dma_latency is
10:50:45 <ais523> that's the sort of thing I'd expect in /proc not /dev
10:50:56 <AnMaster> /dev/network_latency exists too
10:51:04 <AnMaster> cat: /dev/network_latency: Invalid argument
10:51:58 <pikhq> ais523: Obviously, it can toggle 0s to 1s.
10:52:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, and the other way, it does that only if it runs out of the buffers
10:52:38 <AnMaster> to avoid the overhead when possible
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11:30:41 <fizzie> So can you do echo "really really much" > /dev/network_throughput when you want a faster connection?
11:39:26 <fizzie> And /dev/network_{latency,throughput} seems to be intended for processes who want to register/monitor QoS requirements.
11:41:48 <fizzie> That's a funny interface; you open /dev/network_throughput and write in what you want to get, then keep a file handle open as long as you want it to be active. I would have expected some ugly ioctl nastiness.
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11:56:32 <AnMaster> strange, seems like time(NULL) takes a lot of the system time. Ah I guess the HRTI test calling y so often causes that...
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12:05:06 <AnMaster> oh right... that is callgrind's time()..
12:10:27 <AnMaster> for (ssize_t i = len; i >= 0; i--)
12:10:27 <AnMaster> stack->entries[top - (size_t)i] = str[i];
12:10:38 <AnMaster> gcc generates very suboptimal code for that, even at -O3
12:10:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, in jitfunge, which way does the stack grow?
12:11:35 <AnMaster> hrrm I just got an idea for fast asm on x86_64 for that stack push...
12:12:21 <AnMaster> oh yes... abusing BSWAP I'm sure should be possible...
12:12:23 <fizzie> Up, I think. To higher addresses. I'm not completely sure how I did the stack-stackery, I think I just keep the topmost stack in the specially handled memory area, and copy things on stack-stack operations.
12:13:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, well up is bad for string pushing on stack
12:13:39 <AnMaster> basically that is the main bottle neck in cfunge atm
12:13:56 <AnMaster> since pushing strings mean reversing every byte to push a 0"gnirts"
12:14:09 <AnMaster> mostly related to all those y in the HRTI test that mycology does
12:14:34 <fizzie> Yes, well, my STRN implementation might not be very optimal anyway.
12:15:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, well STRN isn't a bottle neck in mycology, and my STRN is "not too bad", and actually since it is defined to use strings it isn't well defined how values outside the range of char works in STRN
12:16:15 <AnMaster> in cfunge it depends on which instruction, since some uses unsigned char*, and other ones just copies directly to/from funge space
12:16:47 <AnMaster> should probably implement some sort of fungeCell* pushing thing... would be faster
12:17:17 <AnMaster> (less checks for available stack space, since unlike you I don't mess with catching SEGV and poking registers to avoid checking for stack size)
12:19:09 <fizzie> There's no special reason why I couldn't have a downward-growing stack, except that theoretically it might be a bit more likely to find free pages after the stack than before it. But that's just a guess. And anyway I do that half-assed attempt to stick the stack out there in the wilderness if possible.
12:19:34 <AnMaster> yeah.. down growing stacks means grow isn't a simple realloc() any more
12:21:18 <fizzie> Actually, heh, I don't think current jitfunge even grows the stack at all. Haven't touched that code in a while, but all I'm seeing here are the underflow checks.
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13:14:15 <AnMaster> ais523, is there any way to tell gcc that how a specific memory block is a aligned, I mean I have a pointer to an array of ints and want to tell gcc it is properly aligned for SSE access, since gcc decides to not try to vectorize the loop due to: "note: Unknown alignment for access: *array_25"
13:14:21 <AnMaster> but I know it is properly aligned
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13:14:42 <ais523> there's an __attribute__ for it, I'm pretty sure
13:15:47 <AnMaster> ais523, that is for aligning variables yes, but there doesn't seem to be one to tell it how a malloc()ed block is aligned (and gcc can't possible trace this back to the malloc since the pointer has been stored in a struct for quite a while before and passed around)
13:16:21 <ais523> couldn't you put the attribute in the right place in a pointer definition to constrain what it's pointing to, rather than what it is?
13:16:42 <AnMaster> tried that. it seemed to align the pointer itself
13:23:19 <fizzie> There's that "aligned (x)" attribute for types; the example has "typedef int more_aligned_int __attribute__ ((aligned (8)));". Maybe you could (ab)use a similar typedef -- like do "typedef unsigned char sse_aligned_char __attribute__ ((aligned (42)));" and then keep a sse_aligned_char* type pointer.
13:23:31 <fizzie> (There's 42 because I don't really know how many bytes you want there.)
13:23:47 <ais523> I don't think aligning to 42-byte boundaries would be particularly useful...
13:25:12 <AnMaster> I need to align 128-bits probably
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13:27:15 <fizzie> char *__attribute__((aligned(8))) *f;
13:27:22 <fizzie> specifies the type "pointer to 8-byte-aligned pointer to `char'".
13:27:26 <oerjan> ais523: but but - clearly that must be the answer
13:27:33 <AnMaster> actually that doesn't help. What I need is to tell it *base* is aligned
13:27:48 <AnMaster> error: alignment of array elements is greater than element size
13:28:17 <fizzie> Yes, well, you can try something like "char __attribute__((aligned(16))) *foo" too.
13:29:19 <fizzie> Oh, maybe I should've read the rest of that paragraph.
13:29:44 <fizzie> "Note again that this does not work with most attributes; for example, the usage of `aligned' and `noreturn' attributes given above is not yet supported." immediately after that char *__.. example.
13:33:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, aligned would cause it to insert padding between each member in array
13:34:11 <fizzie> As far as the "attribute in typedef" is considered, certainly with a "typedef unsigned char auchar __attribute__ ((aligned (16)));" I can't do "auchar foo[10];" without that error, but a "char foo[10]; auchar* bar = (auchar*)foo;" works just fine.
13:34:15 <AnMaster> not tell it that the first member is aligned on even 16 bytes
13:34:58 <fizzie> Not that I have any clue whether gcc would understand that access via that "bar" pointer there would be 16-byte-aligned. Or what auchar[1] would mean. Maybe there would be padding.
13:35:12 <fizzie> Er, I mean bar[1] there.
13:35:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, it can do it for static variables
13:37:56 <fizzie> Yes, well, my interpretation of "typedef foo afoo __attribute__ ((aligned (x))); ... afoo* x = ...;" would be "afoo is a foo-type thing that is aligned at x-byte boundaries, so x is therefore a pointer to a foo-element aligned thusly", but I really can't know how GCC reads it.
13:38:11 <AnMaster> icc seems to understand this with no hints btw...
13:41:03 <fizzie> GCC does have that vector-size attribute, too, for more explicit vectorizablitiesies.
13:42:27 <fizzie> The stuff at http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Vector-Extensions.html I mean. But I haven't really found any concrete examples about "here's how to tell the alignment of a memory block for auto-vectorization purposes".
13:59:46 <fizzie> The basis of all matter.
14:00:32 <ais523> except the matter that doesn't matter
14:00:57 <fizzie> I was this close to adding "at least all interesting matter".
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14:02:18 <oklopol> 16:00… fizzie: Well, no matter. ||| 16:00… * Disconnected <<< for second there i perceived this as if fizzie had quit just after that message, and somehow it would've looked like i was disconnecting from my perspective.
14:05:08 <impomatic> Are talk pages on the esolang wiki covered by the same license as the articles pages?
14:07:22 <ais523> there's an agree-to-PD message below the edit box
14:07:26 <ais523> and it's the only way to change them
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14:10:12 <impomatic> I wanted to use something from the Underload talk page
14:11:44 <ais523> if I wrote it, it's definitely PD, with my compliments
14:14:32 <impomatic> Thanks, but it's Keymaker's quine :-)
14:14:59 <ais523> what did you want it for, by the way?
14:15:06 <oerjan> i think that's in the article too?
14:15:17 <ais523> no, my quine's the one in the article
14:15:20 <impomatic> I thought I'd include it here with an explanation of how it works http://corewar.co.uk/assembly/underload.htm
14:19:00 <AnMaster> <fizzie> GCC does have that vector-size attribute, too, for more explicit vectorizablitiesies. <-- doesn't do the same thing in this case
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15:03:35 <impomatic> Just starting my implementation of Forth in Redcode. Still open to suggestions
15:07:26 -!- ehird has left (?).
15:07:28 -!- ehird has joined.
15:08:51 <ehird> see, clearly I'm the most important member of this channel.
15:09:15 <ais523> ehird: I was gone a day too, so no
15:09:19 <ais523> I didn't know you weren't there to miss
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15:10:14 <oerjan> wait, ehird was gone a day? *duck*
15:13:03 <ehird> why the :/? nervous about the goat sacrifice?
15:13:20 <ehird> also, has nobody noticed the logs link is wrong?
15:13:51 <ehird> that could be an issue
15:13:52 <ehird> <oerjan> fucking wiki locking up just as i'm saving :<
15:13:56 <ehird> clog: are you sure you didn't mean oklopol?
15:19:56 <ehird> http://blogs.msdn.com/michkap/archive/2005/09/17/469941.aspx
15:24:10 <ehird> 15:59:55 <AnMaster> IMO all apps should have upper limits on how much they will allocate
15:24:10 <ehird> 16:00:00 <AnMaster> formal upper bounds
15:24:10 <ehird> 16:00:07 <AnMaster> not just for the sorting algorithm
15:24:11 <ehird> 16:00:12 <AnMaster> but for the whole app
15:24:20 <ehird> Alternative solution: don't write memory hogging apps.
15:24:49 <ais523> AnMaster's method looks like a way to make sure you don't write a memory hogging app
15:25:14 <ehird> err, you can easily write a memory hogging app by doing that
15:25:18 <ehird> it gains you approximately nothing.
15:25:36 <ais523> it lets you know exactly how memory hogging it is
15:25:57 <ehird> no, it doesn't, and to boot, even if it did it's a tedious, stupid way of finding that out
15:30:34 <ehird> ubiquite (ubiquiting, ubiquited), v. To make a property more ubiquitous.
15:31:06 <ehird> maybe it should be ubiquit
15:31:14 <ehird> , ubiquiting, ubiquited, ubiquites
15:36:23 <impomatic> Yay, Forth interpreter is working!
15:37:38 <ehird> impomatic: does "SEE" work?
15:38:12 <impomatic> Hmmm... I don't know what SEE is, so probably not!
15:38:48 <ehird> impomatic: prints to screen the forth source code of a defined word, or the disassembled machine code of a primitive
15:39:09 <ehird> also, does IF, ELSE, THEN-style branch control work?
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15:41:37 <impomatic> SEE doesn't work and probably won't ever. IF ELSE THEN not yet. BEGIN UNTIL is the only flow control so far.
15:41:58 <ehird> how is BEGIN UNTIL implemented?
15:42:12 <ehird> It's just, you can implement the language Forth conventionally, but it isn't really a forth unless you do it the "proper way"
15:42:17 <ehird> threaded machine code that is
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15:43:55 <impomatic> the following are implemented: u. space * = 1+ - + swap ?dup dup depth abs negate r> >r r@ begin drop until
15:45:13 <ais523> ehird: redcode's all about threaded machine code
15:45:17 <ais523> that, and crazy side effects
15:45:32 <ehird> i mean you have to compile forth to threaded machine code
15:45:42 <ehird> also redcode isn't _threaded_ machine code
15:45:47 <ehird> that makes no sense, you can only compile to that
15:45:53 <ais523> have you not seen the SPL instruction?
15:46:15 <ais523> ehird: well, you're missing the point if you miss the instruction that does machine-code threading
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15:46:34 <ais523> SPL is one of the most important opcodes in redcode, it massively changes the way the language works
15:47:03 <oerjan> "threading" means something different in forth, nothing to do with concurrency
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15:47:45 <ehird> ais523: so no, you don't know what threaded means
15:47:54 <ais523> oh, ok, one word with two meanings?
15:47:59 <impomatic> threading in Forth means the program is compiled to a long series of subroutine addresses
15:48:08 <ehird> I'm tempted to say forth's meaning came first.
15:48:16 <ehird> impomatic: exactly
15:48:26 <ehird> 2 2 + -> {&LITERAL,2,&LITERAL,2,&PLUS}
15:48:33 <ehird> (where LITERAL looks one ahead in the ip)
15:49:47 <impomatic> Yes, that's exactly how it compiles :-)
15:50:02 <ehird> i was explaining for ais523
15:51:51 <AnMaster> what? ais523 didn't know what threading in forth was? ^_^
15:52:23 <ais523> that's pretty interesting, it's sort-of like coercing an ordinary processor into being a bytecode interpreter
15:52:26 <AnMaster> ais523, ever seen bashforth? string-threaded iirc
15:52:47 <ais523> redcode doesn't have subroutines, so you'd need to implement a stack yourself to do it like that
15:53:48 <ais523> any colour so long as it's red
15:54:58 <AnMaster> ais523, was that a reference to black for t-ford?
15:55:21 <ais523> although it seems Mr. Ford never actually said that
15:55:40 <AnMaster> oh? Another of the "Beam me up, Scotty" famous unsaid lines?
15:56:21 <ehird> [15:52:23] <ais523> that's pretty interesting, it's sort-of like coercing an ordinary processor into being a bytecode interpreter
15:56:28 <ehird> sort of but actually not.
15:56:33 <ehird> in fact, not really sort of,.
15:56:37 <AnMaster> ais523, so what is the origin of it then?
15:56:50 <ais523> probably you could look it up on snopes or somewhere
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15:59:29 <oerjan> 'as Ford wrote in his autobiography, "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black"' (WP)
16:00:05 <AnMaster> ok he never *said* it then? but rather wrote it?
16:00:33 <AnMaster> or maybe it is a myth that it is a myth that he never said it!
16:01:47 <oerjan> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Henry_Ford#Any_colo.28u.29r.2C_so_long_as_it_is_black
16:03:11 <ais523> I love the way the u is parenthesised in that
16:09:33 <ehird> <Slereah> Writing a mathematical function in Brainfuck is as easy to do as a CAT program in Unlambda :D
16:09:37 <ehird> you mean really easy?
16:09:47 <ehird> (2008-03-21, vintage quotes, move along_
16:11:07 <oklopol> anyone can write the former, not everyone can write the latter
16:11:26 <ehird> I think the latter is easier
16:11:57 <ais523> the latter is easier but only if you know how
16:12:01 <oklopol> unlambda is an asymptotically much simpler language, so to speak, so once you know it, should be very easyt
16:12:02 <ais523> also, which mathematial function?
16:12:17 <ehird> ais523: any is the implication
16:12:34 <oklopol> presumably one you can write in some other language already
16:12:55 <ais523> addition's easy enough in BF
16:13:56 * ehird thinks about implementing look_and_say(N) as O(1)
16:14:02 <ehird> where N = iteration number
16:14:45 <ehird> the first digit goes
16:14:51 <ehird> 1 1 2, then 1 1 3 forever
16:15:11 <oklopol> well it has exponential growth
16:15:13 <ehird> the second goes (), 1, 1, 2, then 1 1 3 probably forever
16:15:22 <ehird> the third digit goes 1 1 2 then 1 33 forever
16:15:39 <ehird> the fourth goes 1 2 2 then 1 3 3 forever
16:15:55 <ehird> I'm pretty sure if you had a digits_in_look_and_say(N) you could do it
16:16:18 <oklopol> also where did you get those numbers there?
16:16:29 <ehird> 16:10:44 <oklopol> 1
16:16:30 <ehird> 16:10:44 <oklopol> 11
16:16:30 <ehird> 16:10:44 <oklopol> 21
16:16:30 <ehird> 16:10:44 <oklopol> 121116:10:44 <oklopol> 111221
16:16:30 <ehird> 16:10:44 <oklopol> 312211
16:16:30 <ehird> 16:10:46 <oklopol> 13112221
16:16:38 <ehird> examining the digit at each position downwards
16:16:43 <ehird> I think they're fairly trivial patterns
16:17:02 <ehird> so number of digits in N + some modulo magic should do it
16:17:09 <oerjan> it splits into atoms, naturally, after that it's just substitution
16:17:21 <ehird> I'm trying to do it non-recursively
16:18:11 <oklopol> i bet i can make it like O(½)
16:18:16 <ehird> 16:18:13 <oerjan> after a number of iterations it split into Conway's elements. From there on it is a simple substitution
16:18:33 <oerjan> you mean finding the m'th digit of the n'th iteration, O(1) in n? (but obviously cannot by O(1) in m)
16:19:02 <ehird> oerjan: no, element N of the LAS sequence in O(1)
16:19:06 <ehird> i'm fairly certain it is possible
16:19:14 <oerjan> erm i have that page on my wp watchlist
16:20:11 <ehird> i dream about unicorns.
16:20:45 <oerjan> first of all, nothing can be O(1) if it doesn't have constant size output and requires looking at only finite part of input
16:20:45 <oklopol> usually i'm solving a scrambled version of an exercise i was doing before going to sleep
16:21:48 <oerjan> at least in the usual turing machine sense of O()
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16:22:16 <oklopol> i think ehird just means finding the nth element without solving the ones leading up to it first.
16:22:16 <ehird> [16:20:45] <oerjan> first of all, nothing can be O(1) if it doesn't have constant size output and requires looking at only finite part of input
16:22:19 <ehird> not the sense I meant
16:22:27 <ehird> okay, I said it wrongly
16:22:32 <ehird> ShakespeareFan00: Hi.
16:22:44 <oklopol> sometimes you need to say wrongly to be heard.
16:23:48 <ShakespeareFan00> http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Sigsumeidsi - Anyone think this could be tweaked for programming?
16:24:13 <ehird> you can make any parsable language into a programming language
16:24:26 <ehird> doesn't mean it'll have interesting semantics
16:32:20 <ehird> i wonder if you can implement thue in thue non-trivially
16:37:13 <ehird> ShakespeareFan00: sorry, we can't.
16:37:15 <ehird> our wiki is public domain.
16:38:24 <ShakespeareFan00> A lot of Sigsumeidsi was my idea though... so I'll see if I've got the VERY early form of it
16:51:38 * ehird writes constraint-based language.
16:55:35 <ehird> seems pretty trivial
17:04:36 <AnMaster> well, that page doesn't say anything about how you write conditions or actions
17:06:31 <AnMaster> looks to me like it follows the basic idea of pattern matching in awk or sed style, but matching conditions instead of input stream?
17:11:51 * ehird permutes infinite lists
17:12:17 * ehird wonders how to ubiquit permutations
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17:32:57 * ehird takes on stupid task
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17:49:18 <ais523> wow, what a weird spam
17:49:28 <ais523> Subject: ?spam? [Icfpc08] haemaatocrit postmarked stiffer basswood
17:49:29 <ais523> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:45:42 +0000
17:49:32 <ais523> culling suubtilisers retranslated fiction
17:49:45 <ais523> "suubtilisers" isn't even a word...
17:49:51 <ais523> and haemaatocrit is somewhat suspicious
17:49:58 <ais523> and that's all that the messsage is
17:50:01 <ais523> apart from the mailing list footer
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18:00:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I have seen spam looking like the commit mails sourceforge sends... same formatting
18:00:47 <AnMaster> however it would be closer to the type of mail I actually get
18:01:09 -!- sebbu has quit ("@+").
18:02:33 <AnMaster> this makes it easy to find spam btw.... Almost all non-spam I get would match this regex (for subject line): ^(Re: )*\[[-a-zA-z]+\]
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18:19:16 <ehird> do you think passing around 40 bits will be efficient.
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18:21:20 <ais523> ehird: on a 64-bit system, probably
18:21:37 <ehird> on a 64 bit system, 72 bits.
18:22:05 <ehird> (thinking about passing around struct{char tag; void *data;} to have tagged pointers without losing address space)
18:24:19 <Asztal> how many tag bits do you actually need?
18:25:28 <ais523> ehird: the usual trick exploits the fact that all pointers are even
18:25:36 <ehird> except that's bullshit
18:25:39 <ais523> but that only gives you one tag bit
18:25:44 <ehird> since ... pointers are not always even...
18:25:50 <ais523> ehird: well, it depends on the processor and what you're allocating
18:25:55 <ehird> Asztal: well, char is the smallest type C will give you
18:25:57 <ais523> it's normally easy to /make/ all pointers even
18:26:39 <ehird> ais523: and that halves the addressing space
18:27:09 <Asztal> are you allocating lots of one-byte objects on the heap?
18:28:27 <ehird> but I don't want to put limits like that
18:28:53 <ehird> wonder why % texi2html --nomenu --nonumber --split=section r5rs.txi is taking so long
18:34:15 <ehird> ais523: I guess passing around anything bigger than a machine word is bad?
18:34:23 <ais523> yes, if you're going for speed
18:34:35 <ais523> it generally takes a length of time proportional to the number of machine words you're using
18:34:47 <ais523> and substantially more if you don't have enough free registers to hold the whole thing
18:35:53 <ehird> I guess only being able to address 9223372036854775808 bytes on a 64-bit machine is okay :-D
18:36:33 <ehird> ais523: hm, so passing around `long`s is slow?
18:36:59 <ehird> (more worrying is only being able to address 2147483647 bytes on a 32 bit machine, but I should not worry...)
18:37:03 <ais523> no, well only on a 16-bit architecture
18:37:15 <ais523> also, is this an OS-independent application?
18:37:17 <ehird> who uses 32 bit machines and runs program allocating >2gb anyway...
18:37:21 <ehird> ais523: Yes, hopefully.
18:37:35 <ehird> oh, so longs fit in a machine word?
18:37:35 <ais523> a useful trick to know is that all the main OSes around at the moment reserve half of the available memory addresses for their own use
18:37:41 <ais523> ehird: on 32-bit and 64-bit, yes
18:37:47 <ais523> because long = 32 and 64 respectively
18:37:53 <ais523> on 16-bit, a long is two machine words
18:38:03 <ais523> and on 8-bit, it's 4, but you don't get many 8-bit machines around nowadays
18:38:04 <ehird> wait, on 32 bit and 64 int = long right?
18:38:22 <ais523> int is normally 32 on a 64-bit system
18:38:27 <ais523> because so many programs assume int = 32
18:38:32 <ais523> int /ought/ to be 64, though
18:38:42 <ais523> apparently, even long's 32-bit on 64-bit Windows
18:38:46 <ehird> how can you assure memory is aligned?
18:38:51 <ehird> malloc() doesn't let you ... use mmap?
18:38:59 <ais523> and malloc always returns aligned memory
18:39:10 <ehird> -always- returns even?
18:39:28 <ais523> it guarantees that you can dereference any standard data type through a malloc-returned pointer
18:39:48 <ais523> but I suppose on some processors that doesn't guarantee aligned
18:39:53 <ais523> even though it does on processors like x86
18:40:03 <ehird> I didn't know all pointers are even on x86. Queer.
18:40:09 <ais523> the processors would either need to manage unaligned accesses, or else have a char larger than 8-bit
18:40:19 <ais523> in order for that to screw up
18:40:27 <ais523> and both are unlikely nowadays, although not impossible I suppose
18:40:51 <ehird> ais523: This is all well and nice but I need more than 1-bit of tagging.
18:40:55 <ais523> ehird: all pointers to ints, yes, pointers to chars can be odd for obvious reasons but not if they were obtained from malloc
18:41:13 <ais523> ehird: I was reading up on how OCaml did it last night
18:41:22 <ais523> it tagged integers vs. things more complicated than integers
18:41:28 <ehird> Yes that is common.
18:41:34 <ais523> and the more complicated things were stored as pointers to a tag plus data
18:41:41 <ehird> Well, I guess I could do
18:41:47 <ais523> so the pointers, which were lightweight, could be moved around whilst the tags stayed constant in memory
18:42:17 <ehird> (since those addresses are hardly likely to be allocated)
18:42:52 <ehird> ais523: my eventual plan is to make this compile down to efficient machine code, becoming a compiler
18:42:58 <ehird> but first I'm going to do an interp
18:43:33 <ais523> <ais523> a useful trick to know is that all the main OSes around at the moment reserve half of the available memory addresses for their own use <--- you can free up another bit if you find out /which/ half
18:43:48 <Asztal> what about using the range of [0..256] for #\a constants?
18:43:48 <ais523> and note that half of all addresses != half of memory, generally speaking
18:44:04 <ehird> ais523: finding out which half is presumably not very easy to do in code...
18:44:15 <Asztal> one slight problem is that windows XP can be made to reserve only 1GB for itself ;)
18:44:38 <ehird> Asztal: well, it'd be (map(4+ . <<1, (0...256)))
18:44:54 <ehird> er I said that wrong
18:45:29 <ehird> #\(255, I forget what char it is) would be 514
18:46:08 <Asztal> you could even have 16-bit exact integers, if you didn't mind wasting a bit more ... oh
18:47:25 <ehird> really {char tag; void *data} would be perfect, if only it were efficient
18:55:55 * ehird recurs 4294967295 times.
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19:35:13 <ehird> "When was the last time you saw a 1600-line C program with only 25 assignment statements?"
19:35:18 <ehird> I should write one.
19:36:08 <ais523> I've written C programs with no statements at all...
19:37:22 <ais523> apart from flow control, you can do anything you like in declarations
19:41:15 <Deewiant> surely there was at least one statement
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19:45:51 <Deewiant> ais523: what did main() look like?
19:46:01 <ais523> Deewiant: a function call, IIRC
19:46:18 <ais523> int main(void) {int x = (f(), exit(0));} was the general gist of it
19:46:30 <ais523> int main(void) {int x = (f(), exit(0), 0);}
19:46:33 <ais523> to get the data type right
19:47:15 <Deewiant> aren't variable declarations like that also statements?
19:47:24 <ais523> nope, they're declarations
19:47:25 * ehird thinks about a compiler language
19:47:29 <ais523> you can mix them with other declarations
19:47:32 <ehird> a compiler language that does formal semantics, that is
19:47:34 <ais523> but not inside statements, except in C9
19:47:36 <ehird> and yet does efficient machine code
19:47:50 <ehird> it'll have to be _imperative_ formal semantics :P
19:58:18 <ehird> http://pastie.org/401316.txt?key=dqcm5fjjhuynhxrvj9nwq
19:58:24 <ehird> example of what I imagine it to be like
20:02:36 <ehird> http://pastie.org/401324.txt?key=axr1a9azdlzsjawzet8w compiler output from that, with some tweaks to , due to my original errors
20:02:58 <ehird> should be relatively trivial to make into asm
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20:12:16 <psygnisfive> he thinks copy(a,b) { a=b; } should be valid haskell
20:12:25 <psygnisfive> and that you need to be able to "copy stuff" in order to be TC
20:12:35 <ehird> psygnisfive: just read the logs
20:12:42 <lament> and people know he's trolling
20:14:18 <ehird> <yohan> Im writing my master thesis about why imperative programming languages are fast
20:14:38 <lament> ehird: you are boring :(
20:15:02 <lament> psygnisfive: he's doing a masters with haskell at chalmers
20:15:11 <lament> he's also a far better troll than ehird
20:15:20 <ehird> I'm not a literal troll.
20:15:26 <ehird> I troll people by getting them to think I'm a troll and being annoying.
20:15:35 <ehird> This annoys lament more than a real troll as you see.
20:16:18 <ehird> [shortly after 'atm? ass to mouth']
20:16:19 <ehird> <yohan> ASM? Ass to mouth?
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20:20:31 <ehird> [20:19:19] <yohan> jkup: python, is that like an include file?
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21:51:28 <ehird> i == true swap [] if
21:51:34 <ehird> who wannsa figure out how it works
21:51:43 <ehird> i : 'R ('R -- 'S) -- 'S
21:51:43 <ehird> == : 'R 'a 'b -- 'R bool
21:51:43 <ehird> true : 'R -- 'R bool
21:51:43 <ehird> swap : 'R 'a 'b -- 'R 'b 'a
21:51:45 <ehird> if : 'R bool ('R -- 'T) ('R -- 'T) -- 'T
21:51:47 <ehird> i wrote it ages ago
21:51:49 <ehird> so I don't know how it works :D
21:52:01 <ehird> err, [] would technicaly be 'R -- 'R ('S -- 'S)
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22:06:39 <oklopol> looks to me like [] evaluates, and code is just pushed on stack
22:06:49 <oklopol> but i guess if would need to be special.
22:07:51 <oklopol> err... "i == true swap []" => "i true ==" on stack, i guess the if wouldn't actually make any sense, as you're not doing anything.
22:07:56 <oklopol> so forget i said anything.
22:08:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:16:23 <ehird> and [] is the empty quotation
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22:48:53 <ehird> [ehird:~] % port installed|grep xorg-|awk '{print $1}'|xargs sudo port uninstall
22:51:02 -!- ehird has set topic: Don't use rafb.net for pasting because they delete pastes. Think of the log-readers. Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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22:53:04 <asdasd> fuuuuuuuuuuuck Your have been using Linkinus for more than 15 days. If you like Linkinus, please purchase it for unrestricted use!
22:55:17 <GregorR> Seeing how it says so on the site, I find myself unsurprised :P
23:04:50 -!- ehird has left (?).
23:04:53 -!- ehird has joined.
23:05:08 <ehird> how many people alive? when I disconnect, please say something in the interim.
23:05:17 <ehird> disconnected... NOW
23:05:20 <ais523> I'm alive, just not saying anything
23:06:26 <ehird> ok, thanks ais523, can you PART/JOIN in 10 seconds? :)
23:06:34 -!- ais523 has left (?).
23:06:35 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:06:47 <ais523> not sure if that was 10 seconds
23:07:58 <ehird> damn, miau doesn't datestamp joins. does parts, though
23:08:27 <ehird> ais523 -- final thing, how about a NOTICE to this channel?
23:11:35 <ehird> ais523 can you say something in 10 seconds? thanks
23:12:41 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:15:15 <ehird> AnMaster: you alive?
23:27:08 <ehird> I go for a compromise:
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23:28:28 <oklopol> i guess someone should put a notice in my notice now.
23:28:59 unexpected log event :(
23:30:39 <GregorR> /nickserv password ohshitwhoops
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23:32:31 <oklopol> GregorR: are you a magic cowboy
23:33:21 <oklopol> well that's pretty okay ;=)
23:33:31 <ehird> pretty okay indeed
23:33:36 <ehird> ;============================================================8D)
23:36:24 <ehird> a magical butt on a tree
23:36:28 <GregorR> 8===PEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENIS===D
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05:48:51 <oklopol> netspplitting is so impolite.
05:51:00 <kerlo> It's very polite, actually.
05:51:27 <kerlo> The tradition of netsplitting from royalty dates back to the Roman Empire.
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15:47:39 <ehird> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/36/114732870_bab0bdae2c_b.jpg
16:01:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what is up with that * ...
16:01:36 <AnMaster> well I can see it is related to the last person (a woman) but I don't get it stil..
16:02:40 <ehird> it's attached to 'men'
16:02:54 <AnMaster> still I don't see why it uses "men" then
16:03:15 -!- Xeanalyth has joined.
16:03:21 <AnMaster> apart from that, Helvetica is rather nice
16:04:21 <ehird> what brings you here?
16:04:22 <AnMaster> ehird, right, not very funny one though
16:04:28 <ehird> AnMaster: it's an ad, ads aren't funny :P
16:04:33 <ehird> ais523: GET OUT OF MY MIND
16:05:01 <Xeanalyth> ehird: ... been IRCing for years, never thought to look for esoteric chans before now :)
16:05:15 <ehird> you think it's esoterica right
16:05:18 <ehird> sorry to disappoint
16:05:20 <ehird> what AnMaster said :P
16:05:28 <Xeanalyth> ehird: I'm a student of the western mystery tradition.
16:05:33 <AnMaster> Xeanalyth, we are about stuff like weird programming languages
16:05:34 <ehird> yepppp, not the channel for you.
16:05:45 <ehird> hmm, our topic is unhelpful again
16:05:55 -!- AnMaster has set topic: Esoteric programming! | Don't use rafb.net for pasting because they delete pastes. Think of the log-readers. Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
16:06:01 -!- ehird has set topic: Esoterica. As in programming languages. Not mysticism. Don't use rafb.net for pasting because they delete pastes. Think of the log-readers. Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
16:06:18 <ehird> sorry to disappoint :<
16:06:18 <ais523> well, it's a case of #esoteric on a programming server
16:06:19 <Xeanalyth> that could be just as interesting :)
16:06:24 <ais523> which is why it's about esoteric programming languages
16:06:32 <ehird> Xeanalyth: that's what they all say, they rarely come back though :P
16:06:42 <AnMaster> hm? "programming server", I guess you could call freenode
16:06:49 <ehird> AnMaster: err, that's exactly what it is :P
16:07:01 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it is a network, more than one server
16:07:18 <ehird> Xeanalyth: see this nitpicking? half of the channel traffic is that.
16:07:34 <AnMaster> not really, I would guess around 39% at most :P
16:07:39 -!- ehird has set topic: Esoterica. As in programming languages. Not mysticism. Don't use rafb.net for pasting because they delete pastes. Think of the log-readers. Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
16:07:45 <ehird> (putting sorting in the log links so today comes at the top)
16:08:00 <Xeanalyth> it's probably something my housemate would be more into.. he's more the pure coder... i'm a unix admin
16:08:11 <AnMaster> ais523, have you ever used hugetlb?
16:08:17 <ehird> Xeanalyth: ah, unix administration. that would explain the esoterica.
16:08:26 <ehird> ls; vi; sacrifice goats
16:08:57 <AnMaster> I was planning to try using it for cfunge but found that at least on my machine I got an average of 2-3 TLB cache misses per run so I thought "not worth it"
16:08:59 <ehird> i see that joke livened up the channel!
16:09:32 -!- Xeanalyth has quit ("Changing server").
16:09:40 <AnMaster> ehird, see I *didn't* microoptimise there!
16:09:54 <ais523> AnMaster: and by doing so, you're violating the spirit of cfunge
16:10:14 <AnMaster> ais523, well not really, since it wasn't worth it
16:10:16 <ehird> I NoV AnMaster for not microoptimizing cfunge
16:10:17 <ais523> you should instead mathematically prove that by not doing that optimisation, the time you save on startup is more than the time you lose on not optimising
16:10:33 <ehird> AnMaster: BARELY ANY OF YOUR OPTIMIZATIONS ARE WORTH IT!
16:10:34 <AnMaster> ais523, the real bottle neck is pushing strings on stack (when running mycology)
16:12:09 <AnMaster> even with stack growing down (tried that to see if it would help, didn't really) the auto vectoriser of GCC or ICC can't figure it out. Though I do have some vague ideas...
16:12:16 <ehird> omg omg omg omg omg
16:12:19 <ehird> "On Building a Stupidly Fast Graph Database"
16:12:23 <ehird> I THINK THIS IS FOR ME
16:12:23 <ais523> AnMaster: write the asm by hand?
16:12:44 <AnMaster> ais523, well as an optimised alternative: sure, I may. But it's tricky
16:12:54 <AnMaster> due to the strange alignment rules for SSE :)
16:13:26 <ais523> one of my favourite programming memories was on a piece of code which had to be amazingly efficient
16:13:31 <AnMaster> ehird, asm isn't tricky indeed, but when you have to care about alignment and unrolling to fit specific CPUs and such...
16:13:41 <ais523> in particular, there was an interrupt handler which needed to operate in only a few processor cycles
16:13:42 <ehird> asm is mostly tedious
16:13:47 <ehird> since memorizing instructions is near-impossible
16:13:52 <ais523> so I had the C open in one window, and the asm it compiled to open in another window
16:14:04 <ehird> I can keep that shit in my head.
16:14:05 <ais523> and kept tweaking the C until the compiler generated the asm I wanted
16:14:13 <ais523> so it was like hand-coding the asm, only more readable and portable
16:14:13 <ehird> why not just use inline asm :P
16:14:26 <ais523> ehird: so other people on the project could see what the code was going
16:14:36 <ais523> I ended up doing about 1/3 of the project, and it was a 10-person project
16:14:42 <AnMaster> I think using intrinsics might be the way to go here
16:14:43 <ehird> I actually have a project involving microoptimization
16:14:45 <ehird> but it's for a good cause
16:14:45 <ais523> quite a few of the other team members weren't particularly competent
16:14:53 <AnMaster> still need to bother about alignment though
16:15:01 <ehird> (and I _mean_ microoptimization)
16:15:31 <AnMaster> btw (one of google's own projects): http://code.google.com/p/mao/
16:15:37 <ehird> AnMaster: a highly efficient, uncomprimising (i.e. not like the Stalin compiler: a living environment with documentation, fully overridable core functions, etc) Scheme compiler
16:15:44 <ehird> (& interpreter, but it just compiles and runs in place, like SBCL)
16:16:02 <ehird> 0. It's all in my head atm.
16:16:07 <ehird> but i think I can maybe someday compete with ocaml
16:16:28 <ehird> (although even that is unneccessary; most of the time something as slow as Perl is fine)
16:16:28 <ais523> I was reading about the ocaml internals a few days ago
16:16:40 <ehird> but I aim to be able to write stuff you'd normally write in C
16:16:41 <AnMaster> ehird, Assuming you are using the best way to write it in both langs? And not just translating the algorithm?
16:16:54 <AnMaster> ehird, what about competing with C then?
16:17:09 <ais523> it's quite interesting
16:17:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean when it comes to speed
16:17:22 <ais523> and comparable to C, not as fast but it can be within an order of magnitude
16:17:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Sufficiently Smart Compilers can only go so far. In Scheme, you can override the + function at runtime, and the rest of your program will use the new one.
16:17:25 <ehird> So you can't even inline arithmetic.
16:17:33 <ehird> Arithmetic HAS to look up the function definition and call it.
16:17:40 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can't even constant fold?
16:17:40 <ehird> Of course, this makes your optimizations more elegant:
16:17:46 <ehird> you make function calls ridiculously fast
16:17:52 <AnMaster> well JIT is a solution of course
16:17:58 <ehird> ais523: it is JIT, kind of
16:18:00 <ais523> I would certainly suggest JITted constant folding
16:18:02 <ehird> I'm not compiling to binaries
16:18:10 <ehird> I'm doing what SBCL does
16:18:14 <ais523> it may even be a good idea to generate two versions of the program
16:18:22 <ehird> you compile a whole function/file at a time
16:18:22 <ais523> one assuming primitives don't change, one where they can
16:18:24 <ehird> but it's still in a REPL
16:18:30 <AnMaster> ais523, that is AOT not JIT right?
16:18:31 <ehird> ais523: that's not really practical though
16:18:40 <ehird> that makes the code size huge
16:18:50 <ehird> note: I'll probably have a way to do constant folding, somehow
16:18:53 <ehird> I'll think about it
16:19:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you were right about Xeanalyth, seems he didn't come back
16:19:03 <ehird> but I don't want to break ANY r5rs compliant program
16:19:23 <ehird> but, I think I can do it
16:19:34 <ehird> it'd be nice not to have to whip out C when generating, say, 5 billion factorials.
16:19:44 <ehird> (especially since in C for that you'd need gmp... *shudder*)
16:19:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I think JIT with constant fold, and if +- and such are redefined invalidate all JIT compiled code using it
16:20:11 <ehird> that doesn't work for compiling to a binary
16:20:18 <ehird> i think I can do it, but it will be hard
16:20:25 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> I'm not compiling to binaries
16:20:31 <ehird> well, I'm doing both
16:20:39 <ais523> AnMaster: he's compiling to decimals
16:20:40 <ehird> the primary compilation mode isn't binaries, but it will support them
16:20:43 <ehird> so it has to work for both
16:20:52 <ehird> AnMaster: but fyi, invalidating all compiled code will be hell
16:21:03 <AnMaster> ehird, not all compiled, all compiled with constant folding
16:21:13 <ehird> you'd override a core function, bam, wait 5 hours for the whole system and the REPL and every library and e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g to be recompiled
16:21:14 <AnMaster> I guess you would have a list or something somewhere
16:21:21 <ehird> AnMaster: well I'd hardly let that optimization be disabled
16:21:32 <ehird> you don't even really need constant folding anyway
16:21:36 <AnMaster> ehird, most programs won't redefine +-/* and such
16:21:36 <ehird> just define a macro that does the calculation
16:21:43 <ehird> (define foo (compile-time-eval (+ 2 2))
16:21:49 <AnMaster> ehird, so well if you get 5 hours you are doing stupid stuff
16:21:50 <ais523> maybe you could use some sort of JIT constant unfolding?
16:22:03 <ehird> ais523: i _have_ considered this y'know
16:22:03 <ais523> replace it with the code that generates it if the assumptions used to make it changed
16:22:04 <AnMaster> ais523, sounds like a good idea
16:22:12 <ehird> the problem is the binary size would be hilariously stupid
16:22:16 <AnMaster> you wouldn't JIT it again directly
16:22:16 <ehird> AnMaster: ehird, so well if you get 5 hours you are doing stupid stuff
16:22:21 <ais523> actually, I just mentioned it because "constant unfolding" is such an amusing term
16:22:25 <ehird> AnMaster: err, no, that's not what I'm doing
16:22:28 <ehird> I just told you I'm not JITting
16:22:31 <ehird> you compile a whole unit at a time
16:22:44 <AnMaster> JITing is probably better for this though...
16:22:52 <ehird> not for my use-case
16:23:04 <ehird> common lisp is a lucky bastard
16:23:13 <AnMaster> but the Java JIT can do inlining and such
16:23:13 <ehird> it gets away with it because you can't modify the common-lisp package
16:23:24 <ehird> so you can do all sorts of optimizations
16:23:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well mark a unit as "need to be-rejitted on next use" then
16:24:04 <ehird> and when the REPL loop ticks around,
16:24:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, there? Will jitfunge implement IMAP? :D
16:24:21 <ais523> which one was IMAP again?
16:24:25 <AnMaster> IMAP allows overriding instructions
16:24:31 <ehird> in SBCL you can do:
16:24:31 <ehird> * (defun common-lisp:+ (&rest args) 6)
16:24:36 <ehird> and tell it to ignore the package lock
16:24:38 <ehird> but it has no effect
16:24:41 <ehird> because + is inlined
16:24:51 <ehird> sure, (+ ...) changes at the REPL
16:24:56 <ehird> but everything else has it inlined
16:25:03 <ehird> that's not very clean :P
16:25:21 <ais523> Smalltalk has false become: true, which is brilliant
16:25:27 <ais523> I like the Prolog version even more, though
16:25:30 <ais523> because you can do it by mistake
16:25:37 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc it allows swapping core instructions too
16:25:42 <ais523> infiniteloop :- repeat, fail.
16:25:47 <ais523> infiniteloop :- repeat. fail.
16:25:56 <ais523> is not an infinite loop, and also redefines false to be true
16:25:59 <ehird> true become: false is beautiful because it's absolutely pointless
16:26:08 <ehird> the only use of become: is for future values
16:26:12 <AnMaster> can you *swap* true and false?
16:26:20 <ehird> it's something like
16:26:23 <AnMaster> btw, cfunge doesn't implement IMAP
16:26:27 <ais523> AnMaster: I know of no way to make true false in Prolog
16:26:29 <ehird> #(true false) becomeEveryInArray: #(false true)
16:26:36 <ais523> retract(true). would do it in some compilers
16:26:48 <ehird> ais523: infiniteloop :- repeat. fail.
16:26:48 <ehird> 16:25 ais523: is not an infinite loop, and also redefines false to be true
16:26:48 <ais523> but most compilers don't let you alter the core definitions like that
16:26:53 <ais523> as they rely on it themself
16:26:58 <ais523> ehird: look at the full stop
16:27:00 <ais523> that's two instructions
16:27:08 <ehird> that doesn't redefine false to be true
16:27:12 <ehird> fail is just a core function returning false
16:27:15 <ehird> false itself still exists
16:27:18 <ehird> you just can't get at it
16:27:23 <ais523> fail doesn't return false
16:27:23 <ehird> also, it's not false, it's No :P
16:27:25 <ais523> it doesn't return at all
16:27:34 <ehird> everything in prolog returns Yes or No
16:27:39 <ehird> that's how I explain it
16:27:45 <ais523> it's one way to think of it
16:27:53 <ais523> but return values in Prolog are done by unifying an argument
16:28:08 <AnMaster> ais523, in Erlang true and false are just like any atoms but that happens to be treated specially by some stuff. No way to redefine them
16:28:56 <ehird> incidentally, I figured out a language where = is both equality and setting, because they're the same thing.
16:30:38 <ehird> foo is then either 3 or 4.
16:30:48 <ais523> = is both equality and setting in Prolog, too
16:30:49 <ehird> if you do (bar = foo+2), bar is either 5 or 6
16:31:03 <ais523> and I think you're inventing a language along similar lines to Prolog
16:31:08 <ais523> but without the annoying restrictions
16:31:13 <ais523> you'll end up with Proud at this rate
16:31:18 <ehird> ais523: no, it's computable
16:31:27 <ehird> the fun thing is that every variable starts out in a superposition of EVERY VALUE EVER.
16:31:33 <ais523> well, you're not going all the way down the Proud path
16:31:36 <ehird> you know how in swi prolog, if you enter "X."
16:31:41 <ais523> but Proud uses exactly the same method
16:31:45 <ais523> and no, I didn't know that
16:31:56 <ehird> ais523: it does something like:
16:31:58 <ais523> every variable in Proud starts out in a superposition of everything
16:32:08 <ehird> %% (last release gives the question)
16:32:16 <ehird> ais523: not just integers
16:32:25 <ais523> identical thought processes, there
16:32:26 <ehird> but yes, if you enter "foo" into my prompt
16:32:35 <ais523> but in Proud, you can do things like F(42) = 6
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16:32:40 <ehird> 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or ... or "" or "\0" or ...
16:32:51 <ais523> and F becomes bound to the superposition of functions which return 6 given the argument 42
16:32:51 <ehird> ais523: that's exactly what mine does
16:33:01 <ehird> mine basically treats
16:33:14 <ehird> so you can do things like
16:33:27 <ais523> now I can see how you do that without solving the halting problem
16:33:34 <ehird> and foo(n) is the superposition of every value between n+1 and n**2
16:33:47 <ais523> but wouldn't a recursive definition lead to an infinite loop, though?
16:34:01 <ehird> since a = a, obviously
16:34:04 <ais523> ehird: what about my last two lines, does that work?
16:34:14 <ehird> ais523: foo(-1) works.
16:34:19 <ehird> foo(3) loops forever.
16:34:41 <ais523> replace everything with an initcaps version, and what I wrote above does work in Proud
16:34:51 <ehird> what's the result?
16:35:10 <ais523> the result is that Foo is bound to the superposition of all functions with those properties
16:35:32 <ais523> and there is only one, if you constrain N to be integer
16:35:46 <ehird> ah. mine's more intuitive :P
16:35:47 <ais523> so the result is the same as if you'd written Foo(N)=0-N
16:36:12 <ehird> that isn't consistent with that definition.
16:36:29 <ehird> it inferrs the rest
16:36:33 <ehird> yeah mine just treats func(arg) as a place
16:36:41 <ais523> it's not quite inference
16:36:41 <ehird> which lets you do constraint stuff but still be computable
16:36:47 <ais523> it's elimination, applied to infinite sets
16:36:49 <ais523> it comes to the same thing
16:36:51 <ehird> it acts as inference
16:37:13 <ehird> if I give my crazy arithmetic system to this language, foo(n) > foo(n) would give the Infinitiest Infinity
16:37:16 <ais523> my main confusion with Proud is that Russel's paradox is expressible
16:37:19 <ehird> (it's so big even itself can't match up with itself)
16:37:34 <ais523> I spent a while trying to figure out what a program that cared about it did
16:37:35 <ehird> ais523: how is it expressable in proud? I'll tell you what it'd do in mine
16:37:37 <ais523> in the end, I realised it simply failed
16:38:01 <ais523> ehird: I didn't work out the syntax for it
16:38:13 <ehird> well, make a rough one? surely it's easy
16:38:42 <ais523> but you can say Russell = findall(Set, not(member(Set,Set)))
16:38:56 <ehird> err, what a copout
16:39:00 <ais523> where findall finds all solutions in a limited environment
16:39:07 <ais523> I'm not sure how to specify the environment
16:39:10 <ais523> that doesn't fail, itself
16:39:12 <ehird> ais523: in my language you can do pony = russel()
16:39:34 <ehird> also, my language only uses = for very equality
16:39:37 <ais523> however, even though you can't tell whether Russel is in Russel, member(Russel,Russel) fails
16:39:42 <ehird> for contains you do it prolog style
16:39:45 <ais523> and that is very equality
16:39:57 <ehird> instead of foo = setswith(2)
16:40:11 <ehird> i.e., most of the time, you only use = to specify an exact constant value
16:40:11 <ais523> Proud has return values
16:40:18 <ais523> the syntax is more natural that way
16:40:20 <ehird> mine treats functions as variables
16:40:30 <ehird> ais523: basically, (foo) as a statement means "foo is true"
16:40:38 <ehird> contains(foo, 4587345435)
17:07:08 -!- Leonidas has changed nick to Leonidas1880.
17:07:15 -!- Leonidas1880 has changed nick to Leonidas1980.
17:09:34 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun <-- jesus.
17:12:06 -!- Leonidas1980 has changed nick to Leonidas.
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17:44:52 <AnMaster> ehird, wonder what that does if java is *NOT* installed
17:45:10 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun
17:45:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun <-- jesus.
17:45:17 <ais523> I didn't ask what the link was
17:45:26 <ehird> IRC is not your personal webbrowser!!
17:45:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: basically, (foo) as a statement means "foo is true" <-- what language?
17:45:38 <ehird> ais523: if you want to read a page, you could open it in a browser!
17:45:53 <AnMaster> ehird, how much scrollback is needed for context?
17:45:59 <ais523> ehird: I inherently distrust browsers, I think
17:46:06 <ais523> I prefer asking questions over IRC, and getting responses as text
17:46:17 <ehird> and it's 17:46 now
17:46:19 <AnMaster> ais523, text/plain: http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/ArticleHereComesTheSun
17:46:33 <ehird> Here's a small "gotcha" for web developers. There are a few "magic" properties on Mozilla's DOMWindow interface for supporting LiveConnect that will initialize the Java plugin and all the baggage that comes with it (which, with modern Java plugins, means launching java.exe as a subprocess). Looking up these properties on the window object is all it takes.
17:46:39 <ehird> For example, take the following sample page:
17:46:46 <ehird> <script type="text/javascript">
17:46:54 <oerjan> from now on whenever ais523 asks what a link is we will say it's a goatse. deal? :D
17:47:01 <ehird> Harmless, right? Actually it's not. It turns out that Mozilla Firefox treats window.sun as a magic LiveConnect property. (I tested with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.6 on Windows.) What's LiveConnect? It was introduced in Netscape 4 to allow plugins to be scripted. Accessing any magic LiveConnect property will start the Java plugin -- even if your code has nothing to do with Java. And starting the Java plugin will load a JVM. Oh, and did I mention that all of this
17:47:05 <ehird> will happen synchronously? As in, Firefox will stop loading your page and wait for the JVM to start up. And all you did was access window.sun.
17:47:09 <ehird> "But, but, but..." I hear you sputter. "I'm not accessing the window.sun property!" Ah, but you are. Declaring a global function is like assigning a property to the window object. (The property's value is the function itself.) In order to assign that property, Firefox first looks up the slot before reassigning it, and that lookup... launches a JVM. Synchronously.
17:47:14 <ehird> The list of these performance-killing magic LiveConnect properties is buried deep within the Mozilla source code. They are:
17:47:26 <ais523> well, I did read the article after you told me what it was
17:47:31 <ehird> In other words, don't define a window-level function called sun(). It will absolutely kill your page's performance, because at least one modern-day browser will think you want Java, because of a "feature" invented by Netscape in 1997.
17:47:34 <ehird> (Many thanks to Kelly Norton, who researched this issue and brought it to my attention.)
17:47:39 <ehird> LiveConnect on Mozilla Developer Center
17:47:40 <ehird> LiveConnect on Wikipedia
17:47:42 <ehird> Open JVM integration in the Mozilla.org archives
17:47:54 <ehird> ais523: does that answer your question? :)
17:48:04 <ais523> ehird: relatively well, it's a bit crufty though
17:48:15 <ehird> Excellent. I shall now set up lynxbot.
17:48:24 <ais523> that would so get banned!
17:48:31 <ehird> And then we can all blame you
17:48:46 <ais523> well, no, because I wouldn't use a bot that's that bad an idea
17:48:56 <ehird> oh, it's not your choice
17:48:59 <ais523> maybe I should browse with w3m more often
17:49:01 <ehird> put a link in the channel? lynx -dump to IRC
17:49:07 <ehird> for those who won't use web browsers
17:49:33 <ehird> wonder if AnMaster's client autoignored me
17:49:45 <ais523> ehird: ctcp it and find out?
17:50:03 <ais523> or do clients respond to CTCPs even from people who are ignoring you?
17:50:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> that isn't consistent with that definition. <-- I have to agree, *tries to figure it out*
17:50:32 <ehird> what function is there that when you give it 0, you get zero,
17:50:36 <ais523> oklopol: MizardX: your clients are broken
17:50:36 <ehird> and when you give it N
17:50:48 <ais523> they're missing out the word TIME in a CTCP TIME reply
17:50:57 <ais523> also, ehird's client is the only one that gave the timezone
17:51:05 <AnMaster> <ais523> foo(n) = foo(n+1)+1 <ais523> foo(0) = 0 <ais523> so the result is the same as if you'd written Foo(N)=0-N <-- hm...
17:51:07 <ehird> AnMaster: -3 -> f(-1)+1
17:51:26 <ehird> so, that definition holds for negative numbers
17:51:34 <ehird> what other function satisfies that laws, apart from foo(n) = 0-n?
17:51:43 <ehird> so, to boot, you get behaviour for positive numbers too
17:51:45 <ehird> it's a clever trick
17:51:53 <ais523> and Ilari's, oklopol's, evenant's, MizardX's, and Leonidas's clocks are wrong
17:51:58 <AnMaster> ehird, it makes my head ache though
17:52:03 <ehird> ais523: also, ehird's client is the only one that gave the timezone
17:52:32 <ais523> ehird: this one presumably isn't shareware?
17:52:52 <AnMaster> -ehird- TIME Fri Feb 27 17:52:47 +0000 2009
17:53:07 <ehird> the client I'm on atm is LimeChat, with an updated version of my patch to assign dates from the bouncer when playing the quicklog,
17:53:11 <ehird> and this theme: http://julianstahnke.com/read/a_theme_for_limechat_colloquial/Colloquial.png
17:53:25 <ehird> it doesn't seem to be hanging on quicklog anymore, which is nice
17:54:00 <ais523> wow, that font rendering is messed up
17:54:07 <ehird> it's perfectly fine
17:54:09 <ais523> not as badly as KDE's, but still noticeably
17:54:12 <ehird> OFC, on a lot of displays it looks bad
17:54:17 <ehird> you need a high-dpi tft
17:54:21 <ehird> which, conveniently, all macs have.
17:54:31 <ehird> on a CRT, or a lower-dpi, yeah, ugly
17:56:27 <AnMaster> ehird, looks rather bad, I have seen worse though
17:56:43 <ehird> if you were on an actual mac with a mac screen it'd look great, like it always does :P
17:56:50 <ehird> which, y'know, I just said, but I know you don't have scrollback
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18:09:23 <ehird> MizardX: did you just hack your client? :DD
18:09:43 <MizardX> ctcpreply $nick TIME $asctime(ddd $+ $chr(44) d mmm yy HH:nn:ss zz)
18:12:16 <oerjan> <ais523> I ended up doing about 1/3 of the project, and it was a 10-person project
18:12:43 * oerjan suddenly wonders if programming projects follow something like Zipf's law
18:13:04 <ais523> except that this was a university project
18:13:11 <ais523> where we were all meant to be workign equally on it
18:13:56 <oklopol> we just finished a project with one guy doing about 0%, me doing about 20%, and another dude about 80%
18:14:12 <oerjan> the 20/80 law, obviously
18:14:43 <ais523> heh, I've seen it described as the 90/10 law
18:14:53 <ais523> the first 90% of the features takes the first 90% of the time
18:14:59 <ais523> then the remaining 10% takes the other 90% of the time
18:15:01 <oklopol> fun thing is the 80% isn't even getting the course anyway :P
18:15:04 <ais523> and the remaining 90% is spent bugfixing
18:15:27 <ais523> oklopol: wow, you bugfix quickly
18:15:44 <ehird> he probably stole mizardx's
18:15:46 <ehird> 18:15 ehird: @pl fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap
18:15:46 <ehird> 18:15 lambdabot: fmap (fmap (fmap fmap)) fmap
18:16:02 <oklopol> no, i didn't steal MizardX's
18:16:17 <oerjan> ehird: btw that is periodic
18:16:37 <ehird> 18:15 ehird: :t fmap
18:16:38 <ehird> 18:15 lambdabot: forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
18:16:38 <oerjan> adding 4 fmaps gives the same after a while
18:16:47 <ehird> there's also a (Functor ((->) t)) instance
18:16:49 <ehird> for which fmap = (.)
18:17:00 <ehird> for which fmap = map
18:17:12 <ais523> maps a function over a monad?
18:17:17 <ehird> ideally, map and (.) wouldn't exist and fmap would be called (.)
18:17:22 <ehird> ais523: all monads are functors
18:17:25 <ehird> not every functor is a monad
18:17:35 <ais523> but you're likely to use that sort of thing for monads in practice
18:17:54 <oerjan> fmap = liftM for monads
18:18:04 <ehird> lambdabot used to have (.) as fmap
18:18:06 <ehird> we called it Caleskell
18:18:12 <ehird> because cale - owner of the lambdabot installation - did that :P
18:18:25 <ehird> it was removed because it was confusing to have the type displayed not be the real type in haskell
18:18:40 <ehird> succ . [1,2,3] looks nice
18:18:57 <ehird> 18:17 HugoDaniel: oh well, its back to vim for me, bye
18:18:58 <ehird> 18:17 HugoDaniel has left IRC ("fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap fmap vim")
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18:19:41 <ehird> ehird: @. type pl fmap . fmap . fmap fmap fmap fmap (fmap . fmap fmap) . fmap fmap fmap
18:19:41 <ehird> 18:19 lambdabot: forall (f :: * -> *) (f1 :: * -> *) a (f2 :: * -> *) a1 (f3 :: * -> *) a2 b (f4 :: * -> *). (Functor f4, Functor f3, Functor f2, Functor f1, Functor f) => (a2 -> b) -> f (f1 (a -> a1 -> f4 a2)) -> f
18:19:44 <ehird> 18:19 lambdabot: (f1 (f2 a -> f2 (f3 a1 -> f3 (f4 b))))
18:21:08 <ais523> now you have to find some use for that function
18:21:10 <oklopol> another fun course project story, a lecturer decided he won't bother checking any of the projects, just passes all of them; and it was a fuckload of work
18:21:29 <ais523> I find that annoying when the lecturer decides to just fail all of them
18:21:36 <ehird> ehird: @pl \a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z -> t h e q u i c k b r o w n f o x j u m p s o v e r t h e l a z y d o g
18:21:36 <ehird> 18:21 lambdabot: (((((flip .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((flip .) .) .)
18:21:38 <ais523> or at least give them low marks, but high enough not to annoy the Externals
18:21:40 <ehird> 18:21 lambdabot: .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((
18:21:42 <ehird> 18:21 lambdabot: (((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((
18:21:46 <ehird> 18:21 lambdabot: ((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .)
18:21:49 <ehird> 18:21 lambdabot: .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . ((((((((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) . (((((((((((((((((((((flip .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .) .)
18:21:52 <ehird> 18:21 sw17ch: but merely creating a new piece of state never bothered me
18:21:54 <ehird> 18:21 lambdabot: [65 @more lines]
18:22:01 <oklopol> ais523: wouldn't work for me, i'd go tell him he made a mistake grading mine.
18:22:17 <ais523> well, in this case he marked it in front of us
18:22:22 <ais523> that's how I could tell he wasn't reading it
18:22:26 <ais523> I could see what he was looking at
18:23:13 <oklopol> well okay, that just plain assholeness
18:24:19 <oerjan> ehird: you're flipping mad
18:24:45 <ais523> surely there's a shorter solution?
18:24:50 <ais523> lambdabot could at least remove the whitespace...
18:24:57 <ehird> ais523: no, pointless code is verbose for complex stuff
18:25:00 <ehird> also, that doesn't even type
18:25:04 <ehird> ehird: @type \a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z -> t h e q u i c k b r o w n f o x j u m p s o v e r t h e l a z y d o g
18:25:05 <ehird> 18:24 lambdabot: Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
18:25:07 <ehird> 18:24 lambdabot: t
18:25:09 <ehird> 18:24 lambdabot: =
18:26:41 <oerjan> hm how was that pangram y combinator again
18:26:58 <oklopol> "Esoterica. As in programming languages. Not mysticism." <<< wait *not* mysticism?
18:27:06 <oklopol> i think i'm in the wrong place :o
18:27:10 -!- oklopol has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )").
18:27:38 <ais523> wow, and that was a quit not a part
18:27:45 <ehird> he was going anyway
18:27:52 <ehird> he'd have noticed the topic before now :P
18:27:53 <ais523> it's still great, though
18:28:02 <oerjan> Yk = (L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L L)
18:28:03 <oerjan> L = .abcdefghijklmnopqstuvwxyzr. (r (t h i s i s a f i x e d p o i n t c o m b i n a t o r))
18:28:18 <ehird> hey, who wants to connect-cycle? I wanna test this limechat regexp :P
18:28:22 <ehird> meh, I'll try #ubuntu
18:28:22 <oerjan> first . should be lambda
18:28:25 <ehird> lotsa traffic there
18:28:49 <ais523> ehird: what does the regexp do?
18:30:22 <ehird> ais523: makes the quicklog playback look nice
18:30:59 <ehird> ais523: http://imgur.com/30DEN
18:31:08 <ehird> there, the playing quicklog/end of quicklog messages are actually notices from myself
18:31:11 <ehird> but I strip out the name
18:31:26 <ehird> ais523: [HH:MM:SS] foobar
18:31:28 <ehird> with the date of now
18:31:31 * ais523 opens in w3m to annoy ehird
18:31:35 <ehird> but it sets it to the date when it was sent
18:31:37 <ehird> ais523: it's an image
18:31:43 <ais523> so? w3m handled it anyway
18:31:49 <ehird> how does it handle it?
18:31:55 <ais523> by opening ImageMagick
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18:32:16 <ehird> but yeah, there was a slight bug with disconnecting
18:32:18 <oklopol> <ehird> he was going anyway <<< in fact i was not, that was spontaneous; as was this
18:32:27 <ski__> - : 'a -> 'b -> 'c -> 'd -> 'e -> 'f -> 'g -> 'h -> 'i -> 'j -> 'k -> 'l -> 'm -> 'n -> 'o -> 'p -> 'q -> 'r -> 's -> ('h -> 'e -> 'q -> 'u -> 'i -> 'c ->
18:32:30 <ski__> 'k -> 'b -> 'r -> 'o -> 'v -> 'n -> 'f -> 'o -> 'w -> 'j -> 'u -> 'm -> 'p -> 's -> 'o -> 'x -> 'e -> 'r -> 't -> 'h -> 'e -> 'l -> 'a -> 'y -> 'z -> 'd -> 'o -> 'g -> 'a1 as 't) -> 'u -> 'x -> 'v -> 'w -> 'z -> 'y -> 'a1 = <fun>
18:32:38 <ehird> what don't you type?
18:32:44 <ehird> answer: nothing, -rectypes.
18:32:59 <oklopol> ais523: i'm currently on no other channels, so parting and quitting aren't that different
18:33:00 <ehird> [ehird:~] % ocaml -rectypes
18:33:00 <ehird> Objective Caml version 3.11.0
18:33:02 <ehird> # let foo a = a a;;
18:33:02 <ais523> my supervisor would be mad if I tried to use that
18:33:03 <ehird> val foo : ('a -> 'b as 'a) -> 'b = <fun>
18:33:06 <ehird> WHO LIKES TYPE SAFETY?!
18:33:11 <ehird> ais523: well, you can type any LC form with it
18:33:14 <ehird> so it kind of defeats the whole point.
18:33:24 <ais523> ehird: OCaml also has `a type variables as an experimental feature
18:33:34 <ais523> they work more like Haskell typing, although it's still not quite there yet
18:33:49 <ais523> but I like it for its use of backquotes, among other things
18:34:19 <ais523> it creates partial types with options
18:34:35 <ais523> such as "function with an int or float argument, or possibly others"
18:34:40 <ski__> you mean polymorphic variant types ?
18:34:53 <ehird> # let foo a = 1+(a a);;
18:34:55 <ehird> val foo : ('a -> int as 'a) -> int = <fun>
18:35:01 <ehird> then (foo foo) actually works and busts the stack
18:35:13 <ehird> that's not what i meant to type
18:35:25 <ehird> i was trying to type
18:35:25 <ehird> # let foo a = a (1+a);;
18:35:36 <ehird> even rectypes won't type that
18:35:43 <ski__> (ais523 : however, i don't think that has anything to do with type variables ..)
18:36:16 <ais523> well, the type variables get different names
18:36:28 <ais523> if you have an unknown polymorphic variant type, it becomes `a in type expressions not 'a
18:37:52 <ehird> hmm, how do you specify an ocaml expressin is a certain value at the repl?
18:38:54 <ski__> ais523 : the `a there is not a type variable at all, it is a variant (/ constructor) name
18:39:44 <ais523> ski__: ah, ok, I'm not very up-to-speed on OCaml terminology
18:39:50 <ais523> I'm still at the stage of having to look up operator names
18:39:58 <ais523> although I understand the language philosophy I think
18:40:20 <ski__> (ais523 : i think it is conventional to start variant names with upper case, though)
18:40:30 <ehird> oerjan: no, I want to specify the type
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18:41:12 <oerjan> i think, it's been a while
18:41:58 * oklopol read "Don't use rafb.net for pasting or you die"
18:42:26 <oklopol> would probably work better!
18:42:30 <ehird> ocaml is kind of pretty
18:42:51 <ehird> the semicolons balance it out more than the elegance of haskell.
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18:42:58 <ehird> it feels like something you can do shit with.
18:43:21 <ehird> # let x = count -1 : Int;;
18:43:22 <ehird> Error: Syntax error
18:44:04 <ehird> i'm trying to do varargs in ocaml :D
18:44:20 <ehird> I think it can be done
18:45:44 <oklopol> YES, OCAML CAN DO IT WITH ENOUGH HACKING!
18:48:42 <ski__> you can annotate value and function bindings (but not pattern-bindings) with result types
18:48:51 <ski__> let x : int = 42;;
18:49:05 <ski__> let f (x : int) : bool = x > 42;;
18:49:22 <ski__> you can also use type ascription on expressions
18:49:29 <ehird> how do you do #load "foo.ml";; :P
18:49:31 <ski__> let x = (42 : int);;
18:49:40 <ski__> (the parens appears to be mandatory)
18:50:55 <ski__> there's also longer forms of ascription : `( <expr> :> <type> )' and `( <expr> : <type> :> <type> )' for use with subtyping
18:53:01 * ehird looks at the ocaml h elp
18:53:55 <ski__> see "Expressions" under <http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/language.html>
19:00:23 <ehird> simple variadic function:
19:00:39 <ehird> what's hard is passing info around
19:01:42 <AnMaster> FILE lacks a way to truncate files
19:02:59 <ehird> # hello 1 2 3 4 5 6 0 7 8 0;;
19:03:02 <ehird> - : int -> 'a as 'a = <fun>
19:03:20 <ais523> ehird: using recursive types to do variadic functions?
19:03:35 <ehird> the function in question:
19:03:35 <ehird> let rec hello_ i x =
19:03:37 <ehird> if x == 0 then print_endline (string_of_int i);
19:03:41 <ehird> let hello = hello_ 0;;
19:03:50 <ehird> the trouble is returning a value
19:03:56 <ehird> a continuation can help for this
19:04:01 <ehird> but you still have to return yourself
19:04:06 <ais523> I think you have to use some sort of CPS
19:04:30 <ehird> you have to do that in haskell
19:04:33 <ehird> but you have typeclasses
19:04:37 <ehird> so you can resolve to IO () _or_ a function
19:13:11 <oklopol> oerjan: actually, the vista minesweeper's advanced level is almost twice as big as xp's.
19:18:42 <ais523> wasn't there a big row about that, or something?
19:19:13 <oklopol> anyway it's too big, or they should make sure it's actually passable.
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19:19:57 <oklopol> i fail very rarely, but i still can't pass this, it's like playing solitaire
19:21:20 <lament> http://www.geocities.com/creationislife/games_screens/Minefield_6D_screenshot_big.gif
19:22:27 <lament> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/Stego/minesweeper1.gif
19:22:45 <ehird> oklopol: 6 dimensional
19:22:54 <ehird> lament: truffle swine keeper lol wtf
19:23:06 <oklopol> ehird: yes, that's why i was confused
19:23:31 <ehird> played in 6 dimensions
19:23:33 <ehird> nstead of the regular 2
19:23:40 <oklopol> and you can't see two of them?
19:24:04 <oklopol> that is kinda hardcore i guess.
19:26:36 <ehird> can't see 2 of them?
19:26:46 <ehird> oklopol: the different boards there are on different dimensions
19:27:19 <oklopol> but i just realized it's the game's name, so probably just 4D mode on
19:30:27 * oerjan googles on a hunch, and is disappointed that mimesweeper is apparently an antivirus program
19:31:36 <oerjan> yes, but a game where you swept mimes would be so much better, right?
19:32:37 <oerjan> oklopol: silently, at least
19:32:38 <oklopol> well. obviously you could make somekinda adventure game or rpg or something
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19:33:14 <oerjan> and bloody. definitely bloody.
19:34:16 <oerjan> ok i found one relevant link http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2006/10/microsoft_mimes.html
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19:38:49 <Sgeo> Why does Google Maps seem more useful to me than Google Earth?
19:40:01 <lament> because it's simpler and has better ui?
19:40:33 <Sgeo> I can't seem to get public transit info on Google Earth :(
19:40:42 -!- ais523 has quit ("dinner").
20:04:37 <Leonidas> hmm, my time reply looks ok. At least to the extent that this crappy timer gives me
20:05:37 <Leonidas> and is set to local time, in case you wonder
20:16:01 <AnMaster> Sgeo, but you can't do it in 3D on google maps!
20:16:24 <AnMaster> actually they are useful for different things IMO
20:17:59 <AnMaster> <lament> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/Stego/minesweeper1.gif <-- what?
20:18:48 <ehird> you don't know what decss is?!?!?!?!
20:19:02 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it something related to dvds?
20:19:07 * Sgeo doesn't know how to get to DeCSS from the fake Minesweeper thing
20:19:37 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you mean that hex string is hidden in that somewhere?
20:19:46 <ehird> the whole source code
20:19:58 <AnMaster> in the numbers and question marks
20:20:03 <ehird> in the image data.
20:20:08 <ehird> do you not know what steganography is
20:20:32 * Sgeo has no clue about anything steganography related
20:21:54 <oerjan> it _would_ be more awesome if it was in the numbers and question marks
20:24:20 <AnMaster> ehird, but if it was in the numbers and question marks, wouldn't it still be steganography? "Steganography is the art and science of writing hidden messages in such a way that no-one apart from the sender and intended recipient even realizes there is a hidden message", well I think hiding it in the visible playing field state would be steganography...
20:27:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:34:43 <bsmntbombdood> who wants to think up an algorithm for steganographizing in text?
20:35:31 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: base it on British/American spellings
20:36:23 <bsmntbombdood> not even, because you don't have access to the original text
20:36:41 <Sgeo> Magic soon. Bye all
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20:39:09 <bsmntbombdood> and mixing british and american spellings is suspicious
20:41:01 <AnMaster> I have seen source code in some projects mixing it inside one function
20:41:04 <bsmntbombdood> spelling it color once and then colour on the next is like wtf?
20:41:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:41:15 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:41:15 <AnMaster> both local variables in same function
20:41:28 <AnMaster> then there is mysql with ANALYZE and ANALYSE
20:42:02 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, and on irc I often end up mixing spellings
20:42:13 <AnMaster> though I try to keep to British English
20:43:54 <AnMaster> ais523, I reported a bug in bash 4 a few days ago and got a patch to test today..
20:44:05 <AnMaster> + skip_matched_pair (string, start, open, close, flags)
20:44:05 <AnMaster> + int start, open, close, flags;
20:44:37 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, all of bash 4 uses it it seems
20:45:08 <AnMaster> + static int skip_matched_pair __P((const char *, int, int, int, int));
20:45:23 <AnMaster> since it uses old style in the implementation
20:47:35 <AnMaster> # if defined (__STDC__) || defined (__GNUC__) || defined (__cplusplus) || defined (PROTOTYPES)
21:01:02 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:04:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:11:58 <AnMaster> <oerjan> it _would_ be more awesome if it was in the numbers and question marks <-- it is, See http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/Stego/
21:13:29 <GregorR> This wins the "weird spam of the day" award: "Two astronauts ramming in space shuttle"
21:40:12 <ehird> 21:13 GregorR: This wins the "weird spam of the day" award: "Two astronauts ramming in space shuttle"
21:42:25 <ehird> ais523: I asked #ocaml
21:42:35 <ehird> you know how printf has a special hack to do this because it's primitive?
21:42:44 <ehird> they think I can use its type to make arbitrary variadic functions
21:43:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: in ocaml, the format6 type it uses absolutely is
21:43:26 <ehird> because you just Can't Do That normally
21:44:24 <ehird> ehird: ais523: I asked #ocaml
21:44:26 <ehird> ehird: bsmntbombdood: in ocaml,
21:44:33 <ehird> do you think I might be referring to... say... ocaml?
21:44:34 <ais523> ehird: I noticed the first time
21:44:40 <ehird> OCAML IS A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE.
21:44:48 <ehird> ais523: I was talking to bsmntbombdood
21:44:59 <ais523> surely it should have been
21:45:07 <ais523> <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ehird: ais523: I asked #ocaml
21:45:19 <ehird> nobody else was talking
21:45:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: do you get it now?
21:45:42 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ocaml is a programming language. i am talking about ocaml, not c.
21:45:45 <ais523> why the interest in OCaml, by the way?
21:45:49 <ehird> ocaml has a printf. i am using it for stuff.
21:45:51 <ehird> nothing to do with C.
21:45:53 <ehird> do you get it now?
21:46:23 <ehird> for example, most well-typed ones, especially those of the ML/Miranda family.
21:47:56 <ehird> ais523: OCaml is interesting.
21:48:12 <ais523> it has a major flaw, which is that it isn't Haskell
21:48:16 <ais523> but apart from that, I like it
21:48:19 <ehird> I dunno, i prefer its syntax
21:48:27 <ehird> and laziness isn't always the best thing
21:48:29 <ais523> I don't, the operator precedences are a nightmare
21:48:39 <ais523> especially given that no operators are overloaded
21:48:48 <ais523> and so there are about a million of them to fail to memorise
21:49:01 <ehird> but apart from that
21:49:03 <ais523> I mean, what sort of language has different operators for adding integers and adding floats?
21:49:03 <ehird> the syntax lokos nice
21:49:22 <ais523> the | at the start of a match thing is really clever, though, I like that
21:49:32 <oerjan> <ais523> I don't, the operator precedences are a nightmare
21:49:44 <ais523> oerjan: is a pun coming?
21:50:01 <oerjan> how can that be worse than haskell given that ocaml's precedences are predefined and haskell's are not?
21:50:16 <ais523> oerjan: just try to remember the precedences of else and ;
21:50:27 <ais523> or a user-defined function and +.
21:50:34 <ais523> or any of a billion other combinations
21:50:42 <ais523> and no, if-then-else is an operator
21:50:52 <ais523> but I always screw up the else-; combination
21:51:14 <ais523> it's really easy to accidentaly nest matches and forget to end them
21:51:28 <ehird> Backup scheme: get gigs of porn, steganogarize your encrypted backup in chunks of them, post to the interwebs.
21:51:49 <ehird> Restore method: Find your images (now mirrored in about five million places), extract encrypted backup, restore.
21:51:53 <ais523> like the Linus backup scheme, but less open-source related?
21:52:00 <ehird> ais523: more effective
21:57:25 <AnMaster> <ais523> I mean, what sort of language has different operators for adding integers and adding floats? <-- Ocaml and ASM?
21:57:34 <AnMaster> not that they are operators in ASM...
21:57:40 <ais523> well, ok, asm can get away with it, it has a good excuse
21:58:21 <AnMaster> couldn't it figure out which you wanted?
21:58:32 <ais523> it's hilariously strongly type
21:58:42 <AnMaster> I agree that integer division and float division may be good to separate
21:59:22 <ehird> well you need typeclasses
21:59:27 <ehird> which at the time of ocaml's inception iirc were uncommon
22:00:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> like the Linus backup scheme, but less open-source related? <-- which is?
22:00:40 <ais523> AnMaster: write something so good that everyone downloads their own copies
22:00:51 <ais523> so that if you lose it, you can get it back from one of your adoring fans
22:05:45 <AnMaster> ais523, has torvalds ever needed that?
22:05:59 <ais523> it's still an ingenious strategy, though
22:06:04 <AnMaster> he could just check it out from git
22:06:31 -!- lament has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:06:44 -!- lament has joined.
22:07:24 <AnMaster> ais523, he could download the last release?
22:07:38 <ais523> AnMaster: well, that is his backup system
22:07:46 <ais523> the fact that other people have releases of git to download
22:08:01 <AnMaster> I still like the scheme ehird suggested
22:08:20 <AnMaster> but where would I get many GB of porn... Oh wait.. the internet?
22:08:52 <ais523> but then it would have someone else's files steganographically encrypted on it
22:11:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well what if both were layered?
22:13:11 <AnMaster> ehird, about printf and varadic. You don't need it. io:format("~s ~s~n", ["format", "string"])
22:13:30 <ehird> congrats, einstein...
22:13:34 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not type-safe
22:13:43 <ehird> in ocaml, (Printf.printf "" 2) gives a compile-time error
22:13:47 <ehird> Printf.printf "%i" "hello", too
22:14:00 <ais523> actually, I wouldn't put it past OCaml to have an infinite number of printf operators
22:14:14 <ais523> one for each possible combination of arguments
22:14:29 <ehird> ais523: well, it does
22:14:35 <ehird> they're just folded into one
22:14:46 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, it can check when possible...
22:14:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it's kind of complicated. :)
22:15:23 <AnMaster> GCC can warn about format strings, so why couldn't you do it as an error according to same model?
22:15:46 <AnMaster> not sure how it would handle if the format string was user input...
22:16:04 <AnMaster> unless you have a special *type* for a format string with %s %s %d %s
22:16:13 <ais523> AnMaster: format string = user input = really bad idea
22:16:28 <oklopol> but taking user input and transforming it to a format string might not be.
22:16:33 <ehird> oklopol: you can do that
22:16:36 <ehird> just not use user input verbatim
22:16:40 <ehird> there's type composition operators to do tha
22:16:44 <oklopol> yes, but you couldn't type-check directly
22:16:55 <bsmntbombdood> ais523: you can allow the user to build a format string in a safe way
22:17:06 <ehird> and ocaml does that
22:17:07 <oklopol> because the transforming process would need to be understood
22:17:08 <ehird> so stop saying that
22:17:46 <bsmntbombdood> test.c:4: warning: format ‘%s’ expects type ‘char *’, but argument 2 has type ‘int’
22:17:55 <oklopol> ehird: sorry, i'm talking about c++. thought that was discussed too.
22:17:55 <ehird> we know C, bsmntbombdood
22:18:04 <bsmntbombdood> <bsmntbombdood> gcc does the same thing for C anyway
22:18:12 <ehird> that's not the same thing
22:18:16 <oklopol> i don't know anything about ocaml
22:18:33 <ehird> apparently not t alking about things you don't understand is a thing of the past, I see
22:19:12 <ais523> ehird: I don't know what you're talking about, but I dispute that
22:19:25 <ehird> ais523: what the fuck are you talking about? well, you're wrong.
22:19:36 <ehird> we're such comedians.
22:19:38 <oklopol> ehird: are you commenting me or bsmntbombdood?
22:19:40 <ais523> ^ the difference between me and ehird
22:19:50 <ehird> ais523: SHUT UP YOU IDIOT, er
22:20:05 <ais523> the keys are like right next to each other
22:20:35 <ehird> anyway printf is stupid.
22:20:54 <ehird> hurrrr why would we use rich types to denote the output formatting hurrr let's just parse strings after % HURRRR
22:22:26 <ehird> ocaml is ridiculously fast
22:23:31 <ais523> it uses the even pointer trick
22:23:37 <ais523> that's why integers are 31-bit signed integers
22:26:56 <AnMaster> ais523, but wouldn't it be slower to compute 31-bit integers... I mean the CPU has instructions for working at 32-bit and you need to mask it off every time you store it back
22:27:19 <ais523> but OCaml programs don't spend most of their time doing integer arithmetic
22:27:30 <ais523> so it's a speed gain overall, it makes the garbage collection much faster
22:27:36 <AnMaster> ais523, any ocaml program that did would have issues
22:27:56 <ehird> they'd just use nativeints
22:28:04 <ehird> ais523: btw why does ocaml even need type flags, just for the GC?
22:28:12 <ehird> since all typechecking is at compiletime
22:28:18 <ais523> ehird: it's not type flags
22:28:26 <ehird> it's a fixnum flag :P
22:28:30 <ais523> so the GC knows how much to deallocate
22:29:20 * ehird figures out how to type-annotate ocaml functions
22:29:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: malloc gives you even pointers, so use the lowest bit as a flag
22:29:38 <ehird> so, for a fixnum you do
22:29:49 <ehird> so you can just check the lowest bit
22:29:52 <ehird> to see if you have a fixnum or an object
22:30:37 * ehird is now certain that what he's always thought is true: he can't learn languages from tutorials
22:30:49 <ehird> sure, I'll glance over them to get started, but then I just whack out code and google if it doesn't work
22:30:51 <ais523> well, I learnt OCaml from some pretty awful existing code
22:30:54 <ehird> gradually I suck less
22:30:57 <ehird> and then one day I write a program
22:31:00 <ehird> and realise I know the language
22:31:21 <ehird> that happened with python, I tried going through diveintopython but it just went over my head for some reason, so I gave up, still, I wrote a few tiny python programs
22:31:24 <ehird> then one day... bam
22:31:29 <ehird> I can write python, how did that happen?
22:38:04 <AnMaster> ehird, that about tutorial: very true
22:38:15 <AnMaster> tutorial to get an idea of wth it is about at all
22:39:15 <AnMaster> and then read some reference manual to find out what bits you missed
22:39:48 <ehird> ais523: how do you give a function a type sig in ocaml?
22:40:14 <ais523> using modules and interfaces, IIRC
22:40:20 <ais523> it's a rather needlessly complex mechanism
22:40:28 <ehird> I just want to annotate a typ
22:40:45 <ehird> let sprintf fmt : ((string -> string) -> 'a) -> 'a = fmt (fun s -> s);;
22:40:52 <ehird> except it types (sprintf fmt)
22:40:56 <ehird> not (sprintf)-and-bind-the-arg-to-fmt
22:41:28 <oerjan> let sprintf (fmt : (string -> string) -> 'a)) : 'a = ...
22:42:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to |BeholdMyGlory|.
22:45:49 -!- |BeholdMyGlory| has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
22:48:08 * oklopol has learned languages from tutorials
22:48:24 <oklopol> but i've never learned a paradigm from tutorials
22:48:41 <ais523> how do you learn paradigms?
22:49:33 <oklopol> i usually like to think in terms of esolangs for paradigms
22:49:44 <oklopol> but writing program snippets works well too
22:53:47 <GregorR> Anybody here who can draw an egg stream?
22:55:09 <ais523> GregorR: you're starting to sound worryingly like David Morgan-Mar, stop it
22:55:21 <ehird> (egg . (lambda () (egg . (lambda () (egg . ())))))
22:55:26 <GregorR> "Egg stream" is a pun for "extreme" :P
22:55:30 <oerjan> ais523: it's a well-known danger to esolangers
22:56:28 <ais523> that was presumably meant to be a pun
22:56:40 <ehird> okay, I almost have an ocaml thingy that can do:
22:56:57 <ehird> # sprintf (lit "Your lucky number is " % int % "!") 3;;
22:56:57 <oerjan> just a subcultural inside joke, i guess
22:57:00 <ehird> type-safely, of course
22:57:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well, you can't evaluate (x . y) sanely anyway
22:57:52 <ehird> that's (egg lambda ())
22:57:59 <ehird> i was just using (lambda () ...) as shorthand for the actual object
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23:09:09 <AnMaster> <ais523> GregorR: you're starting to sound worryingly like David Morgan-Mar, stop it
23:10:02 <ais523> AnMaster: about not knowing what something is and asking people to draw it anyway
23:10:12 <ais523> it's a very DMMy sort of thing to do
23:10:22 <ehird> let (%) (a : (string -> string) -> 'a) (b : (string -> string) -> 'b) -> (string -> string) -> 'b
23:10:33 <ehird> specifically, implementing it as a composition operator.
23:11:09 <ais523> he didn't do that specifically
23:11:14 <ais523> it's just the sort of thing he would do
23:11:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess I haven't had much to do with him
23:14:05 <ehird> I wonder if it's possible
23:14:10 <ehird> think I need another type instead
23:14:25 <oerjan> er, don't you just need to throw away the 'a?
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23:15:57 <ehird> except, actually, I can't
23:16:03 <ehird> i have to absorb both
23:16:13 <ehird> yes, this will not work, I think
23:16:27 <oerjan> oh wait you don't actually get a string out
23:16:47 <ehird> (int -> string) fmt
23:16:50 <ehird> (string -> string) fmt
23:16:58 <ehird> (int -> string -> string) fmt
23:17:06 <ehird> and (int -> string) fmt
23:17:09 <ehird> (int -> string) fmt
23:17:14 <ehird> I think I need a different type for fmt
23:17:40 <ehird> sigh. ocaml, as above.
23:20:07 -!- Leonidas has quit ("An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader").
23:20:50 <oerjan> that seems somewhat illogical. Wouldn't an ideal world be right, not left?
23:23:00 <oerjan> Welcome to today's episode, where we learn that AnMaster cannot see quit messages :D
23:23:15 <ais523> I mentally filter them, apart from oerjan's
23:23:25 <ais523> because oerjan normally leaves comments in quit messages
23:23:42 <oerjan> = Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] quit ("An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader")
23:23:51 <AnMaster> freenode is buggy when it comes to quit messages as you probably know
23:24:17 <oerjan> er i knew it censored some of them but i didn't know it did so inconsistently
23:24:39 <AnMaster> and not censored, randomly lost
23:25:22 <oerjan> by censored, i mean "don't turn up unless you've been logged in a while"
23:25:36 <ais523> that's the person giving the quit message, though
23:25:50 <ais523> what I don't understand is how AnMaster didn't see it and I and oerjan and ehird did
23:25:52 <oerjan> s/you've/the quitter has/
23:25:59 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster's bouncer is buggy?
23:26:00 <AnMaster> haven't you noticed Success as quit message sometimes as well
23:26:10 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, that's a bug in Freenode, almost certainly
23:26:21 <AnMaster> ais523, yes indeed. And it also looses quit message
23:26:37 <ais523> I mentally connect stdout/stderr to whereever they ought to be going
23:27:01 <ehird> ais523: perror outputs a colon and a space
23:27:02 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I know about hyperion
23:27:37 <oerjan> clog saw the quit message too
23:27:38 <ais523> what about perror("\b\b")?
23:28:07 <AnMaster> parts of it could win "caused most judges to go insane" in IOCCC ...
23:28:18 <ais523> what's happened to the IOCCC, anyway?
23:28:26 <ais523> there was even a Slashdot story about it seeming to have disappeared
23:28:52 <AnMaster> ais523, I can get to http://www.ioccc.org/
23:29:51 <oerjan> last news from April 2008
23:30:07 <ais523> which was adding more mirrors to handle the load of releasing the winning programs!
23:30:48 <ehird> it was a competition
23:30:56 <ehird> make a web-based (javascript, etc, sometimes) toy
23:31:03 <ehird> there was Wolfenstein5k
23:31:09 <ehird> (3d wolfenstein clone in 5kb of js)
23:31:16 <ehird> (wolfenstein = first person shooter)
23:31:42 <ehird> it ran a few times
23:32:02 <AnMaster> I have the source for previous IOCCC around somewhere iirc
23:32:23 <ais523> well, that anagolf underload interpreter amazes me
23:32:25 <oerjan> hm clearly there must be a connection. they have all been abducted by aliens!
23:32:26 <ais523> even if it randomly segfaults
23:32:52 <AnMaster> 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1994 1995 1996 1998 2000 2001 2004
23:33:03 <ais523> there weren't competitions some years
23:33:12 <ais523> because the judges were so disorganised
23:35:01 <oerjan> by the news there must have been one in 2006, unreleaed
23:35:48 <oerjan> which was presumably no. 18 since 17 was 2004 and 19 had "just" closed
23:36:56 <oerjan> they seem to be about as organized as the Essies, these days :/
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23:38:36 <AnMaster> are we supposed to be organized?
23:39:15 <oerjan> nah but nearly all our contests have crashed before judging...
23:41:03 <oerjan> the second one had some good entries even it wasn't judged. for the later ones we don't even have the entries.
23:42:11 <oerjan> they do have wiki articles
23:42:18 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Essies
23:42:29 <oerjan> well the known ones anyhow
23:42:38 <oerjan> not sure if that were all
23:46:39 * oerjan fixes catseye link for granola/m
23:47:40 <AnMaster> http://catseye.tc/projects/hunter/doc/hunter.html <--- what does the pinwheel do?
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00:00:27 <oerjan> i don't think the + character is actually distinguished in the code, from what i see
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01:04:58 <zzo38> I read about the new one [[Puzzlang]], but now I invented [[Self-modifying Puzzlang]]. I just want to know if anyone looking at the example can figure it out.
01:09:36 <zzo38> They don't record everything on the log file. And they aren't "raw" it just says that but it is faked.
01:13:05 <zzo38> I only see the time and name and message. It doesn't record the commands such as PRIVMSG and NOTICE and the name at the left side, three digit IRC response codes, etc.
01:14:11 <zzo38> So that is how it records notices, well, don't say it is raw if it isn't because that is a lie
01:17:29 <zzo38> This is a message with control codes
01:17:53 <zzo38> It strips out some (but not all) of the control codes
01:18:59 <zzo38> And special messages using the CTRL+A code are not recorded at all
01:24:42 <zzo38> IS NOBODY ON HERE PLEASE
01:25:07 <zzo38> Everyone is on here and responds to CTRL+A commands but no real writing
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09:33:43 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, "tunnel exploring"?
09:34:14 <psygnisfive> there are tunnels connecting the buildings on campus
09:38:42 <AnMaster> name could have been UK or AU too
09:39:12 <psygnisfive> is it unexpected from other countries for there to be tunnels?
09:39:38 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, why do you wonder why I wonder?
09:40:38 <psygnisfive> its a poem feynman wrote when he was in like.. college
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11:44:40 <oklopol> hmm. self-modifying puzzlang looks orders of magnitude more interesting than puzzlang
11:45:06 <oklopol> psygnisfive: went tunnel exploring earlier <<< you sick bastard
11:49:23 <oklopol> on actually reading it, i'm not sure why anyone would use 0
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12:35:58 <fungot> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
12:38:26 <AnMaster> 1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-I-1 > 1-
12:39:20 <AnMaster> ah removing the fungot.dat worked
12:39:21 <fungot> AnMaster: they'll update it sooner or later you will come to any sort of 1/ 2 the existing content, so i can't use
12:43:46 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
12:45:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, if I save again it doesn
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12:48:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I know you use STRN and I made some changes to STRN N (it is faster now)
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12:55:19 <fizzie> Hrm. I'm not sure why saving would create a broken fungot.dat.
12:55:19 <fungot> fizzie: one flew east one flew west one flew over the fnord on this
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12:58:45 <fungot> oklopol: yeah you're right pikhq, i was thinking of
12:58:55 <oklopol> fungot: that made no sense!
12:58:55 <fungot> oklopol: at least on the main site
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14:12:30 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw
14:12:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, how comes ul is listed there?
14:25:51 <oklopol> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+++.
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14:52:12 <ehird> 01:24 zzo38: IS NOBODY ON HERE PLEASE
14:52:12 <ehird> 01:25 zzo38: Everyone is on here and responds to CTRL+A commands but no real writing
14:52:27 <ehird> amazing. hilarious. best trainwreck ever.
14:53:46 <ehird> what would we do without him?
14:53:47 <fizzie> ul is listed there because someone has defined a command with that name.
14:53:49 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>]
14:53:53 * oklopol first thought it was ehird :)
14:53:57 <fizzie> It seems to be the old, brainfucky version of it.
14:54:12 <ehird> oklopol: reality: stranger than fiction!
14:54:40 <oklopol> (the "doesn't log parts" or something part)
14:55:58 <ehird> PRIVMSG oklopol :\1VERSION\1
14:56:08 <ehird> shows in terminals as
14:56:12 <ehird> PRIVMSG oklopol ^AVERSION^A
14:56:32 <ehird> i guess zzo38 thinks people manually respond to ^As
14:57:07 <ehird> grah, my system is whirring, i guess I left ocaml running an infinite loop
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15:16:20 <ehird> The type variable name '_b is not allowed in programs
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15:23:47 <ehird> "[1] If you really want to meta it up, your string could be a regular expression and your alphabet could be regular expressions, so you'd write regular expressions of regular expressions to see if a regular expression of regular expressions matches your regular expression."
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15:47:43 <ehird> http://gbracha.blogspot.com/2009/02/newspeak-prototype-escapes-into-wild.html !
15:47:53 <ehird> yay, it's smalltalk except better. finally.
15:47:59 <ehird> (lolwut @ testIncestousSiblings16)
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16:20:31 <ehird> i have some ocaml code that lets me do this working fully now:
16:21:02 <ehird> # printf (lit "Hello, " % str % lit "! You are worth " % int % lit " pounds.") "ehird" -57;;
16:21:08 <ehird> fully type-safe at compile time, ofc
16:21:19 <ehird> and doesn't piggyback on strings-as-code
16:23:12 <ehird> oklopol: you are secretly ais523!
16:23:35 * ehird just invented something truly awful, too.
16:23:36 <ais523> ehird: that's insane, how?
16:23:40 <ais523> I'd love to see that code
16:23:56 <ehird> ais523: here's a hint
16:23:57 <ais523> I'm even more shocked that lit and str don't have initcaps
16:24:10 <ais523> ah, they must be functions, not constructors
16:24:17 <ehird> int : ('_a, string -> '_a) fmt
16:24:19 <ehird> type ('a, 'b) fmt = ((string -> string) -> 'a) -> 'b
16:24:26 <ehird> ('_a, int -> '_a) fmt
16:24:48 <ehird> ais523: http://pastebin.com/f12c043e1
16:25:01 <ais523> ah, I think I'm starting to see what you're doing
16:25:13 <ehird> it took me a bit of hacking to get the definition of fmt right
16:25:17 <ehird> but I cracked it eventually
16:26:32 <ehird> mine also lends itself to multi-line formats more than regular printf:
16:26:33 <ehird> printf ( lit "Hello, "
16:26:37 <ehird> % lit "! You are worth "
16:26:41 <ehird> % lit " pounds.\n" )
16:26:42 <ais523> you're constructing the type of the function like most languages would construct a value
16:26:50 * oklopol is too lazy to read that without knowing ocaml :<
16:27:02 <ehird> oklopol: I'll recode it in Haskell, it's trivial enough
16:27:15 <ehird> ais523: the best part is that you can make formats do crazy things
16:27:19 <ehird> you could have a format rev
16:27:23 <ehird> that reversed the string up to rev
16:27:31 <ais523> given that this is OCaml, is there any way to make it so you can put a spare % at the start of the format?
16:27:33 <ehird> fun k -> k (fun r -> reverse_string r)
16:27:40 <ehird> ais523: heh, no :P
16:27:45 <ehird> have a blank formatter
16:27:47 <ehird> but it lines up with the (
16:27:49 <ehird> which is good enough
16:28:10 <ais523> I'm just thinking of the match x with\n | One -> 1\n | Two -> 2 syntax
16:28:22 <ais523> which is one of my favourite bits of language sugar ever
16:28:23 <ehird> ais523: one oddity:
16:28:43 <ehird> oklopol: yeah, it's just a specialcase
16:28:59 <ehird> bluestorm: ehird: couldn't the continuation build a string list, and do the concatenation at make_printf time only ?
16:29:04 <ehird> 16:28 bluestorm: that should perform better as the current concatenation-chain would give a quadratic complexity
16:29:28 <ehird> ais523: an oddity:
16:29:29 <ehird> val sprintf : (string, '_a) fmt -> '_a = <fun>
16:29:30 <ehird> val printf : (unit, '_a) fmt -> '_a = <fun>
16:29:32 <ehird> val fprintf : out_channel -> (unit, 'a) fmt -> 'a = <fun>
16:29:35 <ehird> how come fprintf is 'a, but the rest are '_a?
16:31:20 <ais523> what type is the argument to sprintf?
16:31:32 <ais523> it's clearly polymorphic, isn't it?
16:31:51 <ehird> ((string -> string) -> string) -> '_a
16:32:00 <ais523> so if it was of a mutable type, you'd be able to break type safety
16:32:12 <ais523> I can't remember, it's convoluted
16:32:13 <ehird> '_a types "collapse"
16:32:29 <ais523> ah, it's to stop you having a generic pointer-to-anything
16:32:41 <ais523> and then assigning one type of value to it and dereferencing as a different type
16:32:46 <ais523> suppose the argument was 'a ref
16:33:11 <ais523> then in different contexts, you could assign one value to it and dereference a different value
16:33:38 <ais523> that's why your type's '_a, it's so that if you give it a string ref as an argument you can't use it as an int ref later
16:33:49 <ais523> I think fprintf doesn't have that problem because the type's more constrained
16:34:08 <ehird> they're exactly the same
16:34:23 <ehird> - : out_channel -> string -> unit = <fun>
16:34:26 <ehird> - : string -> unit = <fun>
16:34:28 <ehird> why the differing results
16:34:53 <ais523> what's the type of (fprintf stdout)?
16:35:21 <ehird> - : (unit, '_a) fmt -> '_a = <fun>
16:35:27 <ehird> so you only get '_a if it's Right There
16:35:31 <ehird> what the fuck ocaml.
16:36:00 <ehird> i mean seriously what.
16:37:08 <ehird> oh god. I just created a monster.
17:03:33 <ehird> ais523: reader excersise:
17:03:41 <ehird> make them work for a scanf-alike, too
17:03:42 <ehird> the same functions
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17:12:17 <ehird> nobody wants to inquire about my monster i see ;P
17:13:12 <ais523> it's like one of those esolangs that impresses everyone but nobody wants to think about
17:14:17 <ehird> oh, not that monster.
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17:18:11 <ehird> i'd say it but it's not even clever, just awfu
17:22:58 * ehird adds options to the formatters
17:23:25 <ehird> val string_of_int : int -> string
17:23:25 <ehird> Return the string representation of an integer, in decimal.
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17:31:57 <ehird> ais523: you know what sucks about ocaml
17:31:59 <ehird> its mutable strings SUCK
17:32:12 <ais523> why pick on strings in particular?
17:32:14 <ais523> what about them don't you like
17:32:22 <ehird> they're mutable, but fixed length.
17:32:49 <ais523> I'm pretty sure there's an operation to extend a mutable array...
17:33:00 <ehird> yes you have to do it manually
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17:33:33 <ais523> ehird: ocaml imperative stuff is all really low level
17:33:38 <ais523> it reminds me of garbage-collected C
17:34:56 <ehird> ais523: are records Good To Use?
17:35:06 <ais523> everything in OCaml is fair game
17:35:21 <ehird> that's cool. I like that.
17:35:30 <ehird> ais523: is it because it's loose, or because there's not much cruft?
17:36:05 <ais523> because it's designed to be paradigm-flexible
17:36:15 <ais523> you're supposed to mix bits of it according to what best fits what you're doing
17:36:56 <ehird> Error: The record field label a is not mutable
17:37:05 <ais523> you can mark fields mutable
17:37:09 <ais523> but they're read-only by default
17:37:24 <ais523> I can't remember exactly where you put it
17:37:24 <ehird> although I don't really need mutability
17:37:30 <ais523> but you should be able to find where by experimenting
17:37:44 <ehird> how do you copy-and-modify?
17:37:50 <ehird> that's how haskel ldoes it
17:40:18 <ais523> there is definitely a syntax for it
17:40:25 <ais523> I can't remember what it is offhand, though, I've never used it
17:41:30 <ehird> let lit s : ('a, 'a) fmt =
17:41:30 <ehird> fun k -> k (fun r -> {length=r.length+String.length s; chunks=s::r.chunks})
17:42:59 <ehird> let append_to_buf r s =
17:42:59 <ehird> { length = r.length + String.length s
17:43:01 <ehird> ; chunks = s :: r.chunks }
17:45:53 <ehird> # (lit "abc" % lit "def" % str) (fun k -> k) "abc" {length=0;chunks=[]};;
17:45:53 <ehird> - : fmt_buf = {length = 9; chunks = ["abc"; "def"; "abc"]}
17:49:14 <ehird> except I need to use a queue instead, urgh
17:49:17 <ehird> ... wait, why do I? I don't.
17:57:41 <ehird> ais523: how can I alias a module?
17:57:43 <ehird> Data.Mutable.Queue -> Queu
17:57:50 <ehird> module Queue = Data.Mutable.Queue;;?
18:07:29 <ehird> ais523: my code is slowly becoming a lot uglier and a lot more efficient
18:07:36 <ais523> Happy Australian Mailman Reminders Day!
18:09:22 <ehird> ais523: I propose we rename it to "Australian Mailman Mailing List Memberships Reminders Day"
18:09:32 <ehird> in the spirit of accuracy
18:10:02 <ehird> also, ais523, are you sure you don't know how to alias a module in ocaml? :P
18:10:24 <ais523> I don't know all that much OCaml
18:10:33 <ais523> I just know the subset of it that I've used on my University project
18:11:30 <ehird> okay, now my code is pseudo-imperative-functional
18:11:38 <ehird> in usage, it's functional, but it mutates like hell behind the scenes
18:13:30 <ehird> # sprintf (lit "aaa");;
18:13:55 <ehird> it doesn't work properly
18:14:38 <ehird> i broke it, somehow
18:15:09 <ehird> # sprintf (str % str) "a";;
18:15:09 <ehird> Error: This expression has type
18:15:11 <ehird> (string, string -> string) fmt =
18:15:13 <ehird> ((fmt_buf -> unit) -> string) -> string -> string
18:15:15 <ehird> but is here used with type
18:15:17 <ehird> (string, string) fmt = ((fmt_buf -> unit) -> string) -> string
18:15:46 <ehird> sprintf has one of those stupid collapsing '_a types
18:16:30 <ehird> grah, and I can't fix it
18:17:11 <ehird> I wonder what the heck '_a even means
18:23:29 <ehird> - : 'a -> 'b = <fun>
18:23:35 <ehird> It's always there, somewhere.
18:23:44 <ehird> Some sort of hidden urge in FP implementor's minds.
18:23:45 <ais523> I've seen an implementation of it lying around
18:23:47 <ehird> It eats their brain.
18:23:53 <ais523> however, it generally causes segfaults in OCaml
18:24:04 <ehird> And then you see it. Quoth the type signature, "forall a and b, a to b."
18:24:22 <ehird> # (Obj.magic Obj.magic : int);;
18:24:27 <ehird> I was expecting 666.
18:26:39 <ais523> ehird: did you write it?
18:26:42 <ais523> or find it in the library
18:26:46 <ais523> ah, Obj.magic is its name
18:26:57 <ehird> that was what my silly talking above was
18:27:00 <ehird> it always shows up somewhere
18:27:09 <ehird> in haskell, Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce
18:27:13 <ehird> in OCaml, Obj.magic
18:27:56 <ehird> anyway, I like ocaml
18:28:07 <ehird> it's both a heavy-duty C competitor and a scripting language
18:28:12 <ehird> Haskell sort of lies in between those
18:29:35 <ehird> I wonder how to implement a queue on top of lists efficiently
18:29:40 <ehird> I don't wanna use Queue any more, it's too imperative
18:32:00 <ehird> actually, I'm surprised how functional my imperative code looks
18:32:26 <ehird> see for example http://abcdefg.pastebin.com/f59a924d6
18:33:32 <ais523> well, OCaml proves that functional and imperative aren't that different after all
18:34:10 <ehird> The type constructor Fmt.buffer would escape its scope
18:34:36 <ais523> it leads to massively obscure error messages, though
18:34:45 <ehird> just become french.
18:46:09 <ais523> ehird: I thought Slereah liked laziness
18:46:09 <AnMaster> ais523, IFFI needs updating for cfunge trunk
18:46:27 <AnMaster> I pushed a fix to my copy (which work with cfunge trunk but not last release)
18:46:32 <AnMaster> not sure when release will be out
18:47:56 <AnMaster> maybe I should do something like #define CFUNGE_VERSION 0x000303 and then use lots of #if CFUNGE_VERSION > ... #else
18:48:22 <AnMaster> would only be in effect from next release though
18:49:04 <ehird> gah, this is irritating
18:50:01 <AnMaster> like 0xAABBCCD for aa.bb.cc release and D for "not release but svn after this release"
18:50:23 * AnMaster has been working too much on projects using svn recently
18:50:31 <ehird> #define CFUNGE_MAJOR
18:50:34 <ehird> #define CFUNGE_MINOR
18:50:37 <ehird> #define CFUNGE_FUCKING_TINY
18:50:43 <ehird> #define CFUNGE_MINUS_SIZED_VERSION_PLACEMENT
18:51:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but that means you need to do: #if (CFUNGE_MAJOR > 4) || ((CFUNGE_MAJOR = 4) && (CFUNGE_MINOR > 2))
18:51:57 <ehird> CFUNGE_CHECK_MAJOR
18:51:58 <ehird> CFUNGE_CHECK_MAJORMINOR
18:52:00 <ehird> CFUNGE_CHECK_MAJORMINORFUCKINGTINY
18:52:04 <ehird> CFUNGE_CHECK_MAJORMINORFUCKINGTINYMINUSSIZEDVERSIONPLACEMENT
18:52:16 <ehird> CFUNGE_CHECK_MAJOR_MINOR(4, 2)
18:52:44 <ehird> hmm, I should write a replacement cpp for C
18:52:49 <ehird> it'd save a lot of trouble
18:53:15 <ehird> nah, I'd just make it a lambda calculus with two types: macro, and parenizedstring
18:53:27 <ehird> (parenizedstrings automagically add () on catenation)
18:54:38 <AnMaster> why is there a reverse correlation between how much a GCC option actually helps and how cool it's name sound?
18:54:59 <AnMaster> -fbranch-target-load-optimize2 sounds very cool but isn't really
18:55:24 <AnMaster> btw man page says: "Perform branch target register load optimization after prologue / epilogue threading." for it
18:55:36 <ehird> # repeat n x = if (x == 0) {} (x $ repeat (n - 1) x)
18:55:36 <ehird> int main(){ repeat (5) { printf("Hello, world!\n"); return 0; }
18:55:40 <AnMaster> same binary with and without it seems
18:55:46 <ehird> err with } after printf
18:56:02 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of language are you trying to simulate there...
18:56:46 <AnMaster> also # repeat n x = if (x == 0) {} (x $ repeat (n - 1) x) isn't valid C preprocessor, or do you mean that is how your replacement would look?
18:57:50 <ehird> AnMaster: lambda calculus, and the latter
18:58:00 <ehird> { } are parenstring literals
18:58:05 <ehird> binary operators, too
18:58:13 <ehird> (foo SYMBOLS bar) is (SYMBOLS foo bar)
18:58:20 <ehird> apart from that, regular LC
18:58:28 <ehird> repeat (5) { ... } looks like C, but actually it's
18:58:32 <ehird> ((repeat 5) {...})
18:58:35 <ehird> where {...} is a parenstring
18:58:50 <AnMaster> ehird, that reminds me, what do you think of this (example from an existing non-esolang):
18:58:52 <AnMaster> factorial = func(n) { if(n == 0) { 1 }
18:59:06 <ehird> uh, that's thoroughly boring
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18:59:52 <AnMaster> (of course it should use an accumulator yes, it was some syntax example)
19:00:32 <AnMaster> ehird, no. It is a language you probably never heard of
19:00:52 <ehird> snot a very good name
19:01:03 <ais523> does it have anything to do with demons?
19:01:04 <ehird> nasal = nose = snot
19:01:07 <ais523> and ehird was making a pun
19:01:18 <ehird> snot = nasal mucus --answers.com
19:01:24 <ehird> snot = 's not = it's not
19:01:51 <zzo38> I want some feedback about what opinion you have about [[CLCLC-INTERCAL]] so far. I will add more suggestion even to the page.
19:01:53 <AnMaster> ais523, also why do you ask about demons?
19:02:02 <ais523> AnMaster: have you ever heard of nasal demons?
19:02:08 <ais523> zzo38: it would be more interesting with an implementation
19:02:27 <ehird> NOOPTIMISE,OPTIMISE: Selects optimiser on/off.
19:02:29 <ais523> AnMaster: how have you managed not to hear of those?
19:02:32 <ehird> shouldn't that be a compiler option
19:02:39 <zzo38> How would I make a implementation? In JavaScript?
19:02:46 <ehird> AnMaster: guess (the esolang wiki)
19:02:49 <ais523> zzo38: INTERCAL is traditionally hard to implement
19:02:51 <ehird> zzo38: by writing an implementation?
19:02:52 <AnMaster> ais523, oh you mean "demon out of nose"?
19:03:03 <ais523> you might want to try to modify the existing CLC-INTERCAL implemenation
19:04:19 <AnMaster> nasal has a rather quirky syntax for being a mainstream embedded scripting language.
19:04:25 <zzo38> I could try modifying CLC-INTERCAL if I have Perl. I will try that soon enough I guess.
19:04:37 <ais523> you'll have years of fun reading the source
19:05:05 <ais523> I suspect Claudio Calvelli is the only person who really understands the source, and I'm the only other person who has the faintest idea what's going on in it
19:05:23 <zzo38> Another thing is now gopher can use client-brainfuck. So there is a use for esolangs. The only thing is if it could be made faster
19:05:49 <ais523> zzo38: is that really what non-esolangers would consider a use for esolangs, though?
19:05:51 <AnMaster> ehird, hm threading in python seems as far as I understand to be mostly single threaded (lots of locking)
19:05:56 <ais523> they make great puzzles
19:06:01 <AnMaster> ehird, or have I misunderstood it?
19:06:13 <ehird> 19:05 zzo38: Another thing is now gopher can use client-brainfuck. So there is a use for esolangs. The only thing is if it could be made faster
19:06:15 <ais523> and nobody's ever written a Forte interpreter in a non-esolang
19:06:17 <ehird> why does it need to be faster?
19:06:25 <ehird> AnMaster: see multiprocessing module
19:06:40 <ais523> apparently there are people who use brainfuck derivatives to teach programming
19:06:51 <ais523> and personally, I think tarpits are a great way to learn new paradigms
19:07:14 <ehird> I know a guy for whom BF was his first language. He's an awful programmer.
19:07:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I was reading about the GIL (global interpreter lock) and it seemed to work like as soon as you access any python object you need to hold it...
19:07:27 <ehird> AnMaster: multiprocessing
19:08:01 <zzo38> I made a hangman game on gopher client-script gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/@Bgames/hangman/ but you need a compatible client. So far the only one is http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/vonkeror/ and the source-code for the hangman game is at [[BrainClub]]
19:08:31 <zzo38> Which person was BF his first language?
19:08:42 <AnMaster> "effectively side-stepping the Global Interpreter Lock by using subprocesses instead of threads" :/
19:08:50 <ehird> AnMaster: fork() > pthreads.
19:08:55 <ehird> zzo38: random person I know
19:08:57 <ehird> I might try vonkeror.
19:09:03 <AnMaster> ehird, Larger overhead though.
19:09:11 <ehird> AnMaster: not on any decent UNIX.
19:09:20 <ais523> actually, smaller overhead on Linux, IIRC
19:09:43 <ehird> * The unary operators OR,XOR,AND, and division, do not exist.
19:09:48 <ehird> Erm, is it TC with that?
19:09:49 <ais523> AnMaster: because they both use processes
19:09:54 <ais523> and pthreads has more bookkeeping
19:09:55 <zzo38> Vonkeror is a web-browser I wrote but it includes gopher support as well, better than other web-browser's gopher supporting. I used brainfuck instead of JavaScript as the gopher client-script because JavaScript is too complex for a simple protocol such as gopher
19:10:04 <AnMaster> fork() is COW yes, but I guess you could share memory with shm then...
19:10:10 <ehird> zzo38: based on conkeror I assume
19:10:17 <ais523> ehird: zzo38 added a generalised operator that can do OR, XOR, and AND, amongst other things
19:10:27 <ais523> and unary division has never been particularly useful, that's why it was added
19:10:38 <ehird> http://conkeror.org/
19:10:44 <ehird> emacs-esque web browser based on firefox.
19:11:00 <AnMaster> ais523, unary division... Semantics?
19:11:03 <zzo38> Yes, I added the "cellular automaton" operator (not implemented yet). I have to write how the cellular automaton numbers are specified, which will be different than normal cellular automaton numbers (because, it is INTERCAL)
19:11:03 <ais523> one of them's probably breaching the other's trademark
19:11:25 <ais523> I can't remember whether it's signed or unsigned, probably unsigned, or maybe there's a compiler option
19:11:25 <AnMaster> also where is this CLCLC-INTERCAL?
19:11:46 <ehird> isn't that identity
19:12:46 <AnMaster> ehird, hm this multiprocessing seems a lot harder to use from the C side though...
19:13:25 <zzo38> I don't think we are violating any trademark for Conkeror anyways, the Conkeror people did not complain about trade-mark violation and anyways they are planning to change the name of Conkeror anyways so when that happens the name will not be similar
19:14:16 <AnMaster> <zzo38> Vonkeror is a web-browser I wrote but it includes gopher support as well, better than other web-browser's gopher supporting. I used brainfuck instead of JavaScript as the gopher client-script because JavaScript is too complex for a simple protocol such as gopher <-- better than lynx gopher support?
19:15:34 <zzo38> As far as I know in Lynx (the last time I have tried anyways) it sometimes doesn't use proper line-breaks on gopher menus. And I don't really know for sure, but Vonkeror has better gopher support than *most* web-browsers anyways, including some extra features, but some features are untested and I'm not sure if they work perfectly yet
19:16:38 * ehird downloads xulrunner.
19:17:13 <ehird> zzo38: does it work on non-windows?
19:18:02 <zzo38> Yes, Vonkeror works on all operating systems that XUL runner will work on. It's just that some things in Vonkeror work on Windows that didn't work in Windows in Conkeror, but it still works on UNIX as wel
19:18:22 <MizardX> x/(x>>1) = 2 + (x&1)*2/(x-1)
19:18:47 <ehird> that's a rather pointless transformation.
19:18:50 <ais523> so it works better on Windows and just the same on UNIX?
19:18:58 <AnMaster> hm I have a question about XUL runner. How much of firefox is written in C/C++ and how much is written in XUL/js/whatever-non-compiled
19:19:04 <ehird> AnMaster: half half
19:19:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that is excluding xul itself
19:19:33 <zzo38> No, it works good on Windows and UNIX. But Conkeror has some features not working on Windows. In Vonkeror, these features work on Windows too, in addition to still working on UNIX.
19:20:19 <ehird> eek, Vonkeror.zip extracts into the current directory instead of a new one
19:20:50 <zzo38> Then create a new directory. You should always list an archive first before extracting it, that's what I always do.
19:21:08 <ehird> AnMaster: not zips
19:21:10 <ehird> it's common for zips
19:21:19 <ehird> zzo38: I've been meaning to write a script that does that, then unwraps the directories one level if it makes its own directory
19:21:25 <AnMaster> and a tar doing that would be considered a sin
19:21:31 <ehird> so blah.zip with (a, b, c) goes to blah/a, blah/b, blah/c
19:21:37 <ehird> and blah.zip with (blah/a, blah/b, blah/c) goes to the same
19:22:03 <AnMaster> ehird, how would this handle blah.zip with (foo/a, foo/b, foo/c) ?
19:22:11 <zzo38> OK. So if I ever create a tar (or tar.gz or tar.bz2) archive, I will remember to make its own directory in the archive
19:22:14 <AnMaster> if it uses some unrelated name it could be confusing
19:22:17 <ehird> AnMaster: blah/{a,b,c}
19:22:45 <AnMaster> ehird, interesting *writes a program depending on directory name being foo and puts it in blah.zip*
19:23:02 <ehird> that's some rubbish application
19:23:09 <ehird> zzo38: ok, going to try vonkeror
19:23:23 <ais523> zipbombs are very common, tarballs get you shouted at
19:23:26 <AnMaster> ehird, but lots of apps on windows have such issues...
19:24:13 <ehird> ais523: really, zip has it right here, it's silly to put that in the file itself
19:24:41 <ehird> zzo38: where is vonkeror.api?
19:25:13 <AnMaster> does xulrunner leak as much as firefox?
19:25:13 <zzo38> What does vonkeror.api means? I don't think there is a file like that.
19:25:21 <AnMaster> I mean, where is the memory hogging
19:25:29 <ehird> AnMaster: everywhere
19:25:34 <zzo38> O. You mean .xpi. There is no .xpi you have to install it manually
19:25:58 <ehird> xulrunner is weird on this os
19:26:00 <ehird> so I can't do the regular way
19:27:10 <ais523> zzo38: what object hierarchy does your BF-gopher thing use?
19:27:21 <AnMaster> hm "<ehird> xulrunner is weird on this os", from what I heard that seems to apply to most open source projects on OS X...
19:27:33 <AnMaster> that is, most non-OS X specific ones
19:27:47 <ais523> OS X has its own style that's different from most OSs
19:27:50 <ehird> zzo38: here's how you "compile" vonkeror:
19:27:58 <ehird> xulrunner-bin --install-app Vonkeror.zip .
19:28:07 <ehird> that will give you a conkeror program in the current directory
19:28:08 <zzo38> The files for the BF-gopher are: /content/conkeror.css /content/client-brainfuck.css /modules/brainfuck.js /modules/gopher.js
19:28:23 <AnMaster> ais523, true wasn't it s/.so/.dynlib/ or something
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19:28:42 <ais523> so if a program acts perfectly normally, it seems weird on OS X
19:28:46 <ais523> because OS X isn't normal
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19:28:52 <ehird> zzo38: OK, Vonkeror works
19:28:58 -!- appletizer has left (?).
19:29:01 <ehird> why is the titlebar green?
19:29:31 <zzo38> That's the tab-bar which is green. The active tab is green and non-active tabs are gray. If you don't like it, modify content/conkeror.css
19:29:32 <AnMaster> I can imagine it looks weird on OS X...
19:29:38 <ehird> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/vonkeror/screenshots/screenshot_001.png
19:30:58 <ehird> zzo38: I'll try gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/@Bgames/hangman/ now
19:32:28 <ehird> does vonkeror let you go to an absolute url in the current buffer?
19:32:33 <ehird> C-l is relative and C-t makes a new tab
19:33:15 <zzo38> Yes. You just have to include the protocol in the URL. For example, type C-l and then start typing over the highlighted text, such as http://esolangs.org/
19:33:19 <AnMaster> ehird, how does vonker look on OS X?
19:34:59 <ehird> zzo38: I like how gopher looks like an old terminal
19:36:00 <ehird> iForget Web 2.0. The time has come for Gopher 2.0.
19:36:05 <ehird> i can't wait for the media coverage
19:36:12 <zzo38> One of the design rules of Vonkeror is NO ICONS. So if you access a gopher menu (just try any one) you will not see icons but rather the type code, and they are color coded also
19:36:27 <ehird> "Hacker tool gopher, once defeated by good american values, has now been reborn and evil is spreading through it once again!"
19:37:56 <ehird> "Compiler version: FreeBASIC v0.20.0b" -- gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0aboutgophserv
19:38:22 <zzo38> I doubt it will get media coverage. But if there is it might be like that. Maybe I will add that quote to my FORTUNE file in case anyone looks
19:38:29 <ais523> what, the gopher server's written in BASIC?
19:39:37 <zzo38> Yes, I wrote GOPHSERV in FreeBASIC. (The other HTTP+gopher server in FreeBASIC is Grumpy but mine doesn't share the code. Anyways mine supported gopher first)
19:40:09 <ehird> zzo38: I like how you can click on a download to copy the URL, did you add that or conkeror?
19:40:17 <ehird> ais523: gophserv source --> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/5gophserv/gophserv.zip
19:41:05 <ais523> I didn't even realise it was possible to send files over Gopher
19:41:07 <ehird> zzo38: it's only 177 lines?
19:41:09 <ais523> FTP and HTTP, yes, but Gopher?
19:41:14 <zzo38> That copy URL function was there before Vonkeror
19:41:26 <ehird> well, + 389 for the server side scripting language
19:41:33 <ehird> that's really tiny
19:41:40 <AnMaster> <ehird> i Forget Web 2.0. The time has come for Gopher 2.0. <-- I told you that before...
19:41:48 <ehird> that was from zzo38's site
19:42:06 <ehird> zzo38: is there any example for go5?
19:42:48 <zzo38> There's the URL: handler, in the same directory as GOPHSERV on my gopher site.
19:43:29 <AnMaster> ais523, download of course works
19:43:49 <ehird> Pie are not square. Pie are round. Cornbread are square
19:43:53 <ehird> I like this fortune db
19:44:01 <ais523> why do people use http not gopher, if both can send arbitrary files?
19:44:23 <ehird> ais523: well, you'd have to make links gopher-style to use html with gopher
19:44:42 <ehird> there wouldn't really be any point, if you use HTML, to use gophre
19:44:43 <ais523> why would you have to make links gopher-style?
19:44:48 <ehird> ais523: because that's how gopher works
19:44:49 <zzo38> I use both HTTP and Gopher, and so do other people who like Gopher protocol. But Gopher is still used much more rarely than HTTP
19:45:14 <ehird> zzo38: you should invent a way to make a site over the "finger" protocol
19:45:29 <ehird> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc742
19:45:42 <ehird> (boring new version: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1288)
19:46:03 <zzo38> The "finger" protocol is close enough to gopher that you can make a site over the finger protocol, just make sure to use the URL gopher://host:port/0selector (remember the zero and it will work with finger too!)
19:46:23 <ehird> that really works?
19:46:28 <ehird> cool! how would you do multiple pages?
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19:46:58 <zzo38> Yes. The Mozilla built-in gopher doesn't support that because it always uses port 70, but Vonkeror accepts any port so you can do that. Just set the port number to 79 and it will work
19:47:45 <ehird> I wonder if there are any good fingerds
19:48:57 <ehird> they all look bloated
19:49:51 <zzo38> Use GOPHSERV to serve even finger if you don't need some of the features specific to finger
19:50:04 <ehird> zzo38: where is the gopher hangman source?
19:50:06 <AnMaster> ehird, this multiprocessing module in python looks rather cumbersome to use hm
19:50:12 <ehird> AnMaster: not really.
19:50:13 <Sgeo> AnMaster, s/\?/\\\?/
19:50:32 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I don't think ? have a special meaning in the replacement
19:50:46 <ehird> s/e /e? /-> e? hird, tried google ;)
19:50:57 <zzo38> The gopher hangman was written in BrainClub and you will find the code on the wiki. To view any gopher resource as plain-text in Vonkeror (to view the compiled code), push M-0 (this works only for gopher. For HTTP, use C-u instead)
19:51:02 <Sgeo> ehird, the matching pattern has a space
19:51:03 <AnMaster> ehird, notice the space after the e
19:51:10 <Sgeo> there's no space in ehird.. or is there?
19:51:20 <AnMaster> ehird, any fixed font user would see this...
19:51:26 <ehird> I did see it, I just misread
19:51:45 <Sgeo> Is ehird not using a fixed font?
19:52:02 <AnMaster> zzo38, what about a wiki over gopher?
19:53:00 <AnMaster> Sgeo, he might have changed recently, but a few weeks/months ago he said he didn't
19:53:05 <ehird> zzo38: so you just give back brainclub and it interprets it?
19:53:21 <ehird> was that brainclub created with that forth thing you made with it?>
19:53:35 <AnMaster> Sgeo, because a variable width one looked nicer on irc or something
19:53:36 <zzo38> I guess you could use +ASK forms to send data. Another idea I have (which I will implement one day) is an item code that causes it to retrieve text (as code 0) but allow editing, and then after editing, send the modified contents back to the server. Of course any fields would have to be included in the text instead of other form fields, it could be done like MIME headers on e-mail, or in other ways
19:54:13 <AnMaster> zzo38, hm yes the +ASK ones could work.. but isn't the length limit rather short?
19:54:18 <zzo38> Vonkeror interprets client-brainfuck. I compiled the brainclub file using the compiler (that is on the esolang wiki also, it also requires xulrunner)
19:54:21 <AnMaster> + iirc the edit box tends to be a single line
19:54:46 <ehird> zzo38: is it possible to make a to-brainclub compiler in the language?
19:55:04 <zzo38> I think there is a type for a multi-line field. Vonkeror allows you to change the number of lines that will be displayed for a multi-line field in a gopher +ASK form (by default 8, but you can make it whatever you want)
19:56:23 <zzo38> You wouldn't really compile into brainclub, you would compile *from* brainclub *into* brainfuck. Because Vonkeror doesn't compile or interpreter brainclub, it just optimizes and converts brainfuck into JavaScript (using the "yield" command for input)
19:56:24 <AnMaster> zzo38, wait +ASK needs Gopher+ right?
19:56:38 <ehird> could you make brainclub->client-brainfuck in brainclub
19:56:40 <AnMaster> I was thinking of the search stuff then
19:56:42 <ehird> or would it be too hard?
19:56:59 <zzo38> Yes, +ASK needs Gopher+. Vonkeror partially supports Gopher+ (but I'm not sure whether or not it is implemented correctly, but I do know that non plus gopher works perfectly OK)
19:57:44 <zzo38> You could try to make brainclub->client-brainfuck in brainclub if you wanted to, I guess, you just need a EOF marker
19:58:04 <ehird> reading a word would be hard, I think
19:59:10 <AnMaster> where are specs for brainclub?
19:59:26 <ehird> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/brainclub/brainclub.js
19:59:32 <ehird> and http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/brainclub/core.bcl
19:59:37 <ais523> the specs are written in javascript?
19:59:54 <zzo38> There are no specs, just the JavaScript code to compile it
20:00:04 <AnMaster> ehird, just implementation no spec
20:00:14 <ehird> it defines how the language works
20:00:36 <AnMaster> lockless, waitless data structures are fun
20:02:37 <ehird> there should be a client unlambda
20:03:25 <ehird> zzo38: What are the commands new in client brainfuck to brainfuck?
20:04:20 <zzo38> Only two commands * to switch tapes and ~ to switch pointers.
20:04:32 <ehird> there are two tapes?
20:05:21 <zzo38> Yes, two tapes, so you don't have to add all sorts of data to the tape in order to measure where you would go back to, you just have two tapes so you don't need to do that.
20:05:23 <AnMaster> how unfeasible would a lockless garbage collector be? I mean most GCs seems to pause the threads while collecting... but could you somehow skip that
20:05:36 <AnMaster> not even pause the thread it is collecting for
20:05:51 <ehird> are you stuck in the 80s?
20:05:54 <AnMaster> (a private heap per thread could otherwise be used to not pause any other threads)
20:05:55 <ehird> gcs have been parallel for _decades_
20:06:03 <AnMaster> ehird, not most open source ones
20:06:12 <ehird> parallel generational GC
20:06:29 <ehird> zzo38: Then client unlambda wouldnt' require anything new as it already works fine with things like that
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20:08:41 <zzo38> I used client brainfuck instead of client unlambda because someone who wants to write a gopher client that supports it can write it more quickly and easily than an unlambda interpreter, brainfuck interpreters are much easier and quicker to write
20:08:58 <ehird> Unlambda interpreters are not much harder
20:09:03 <ehird> You don't have to balance brackets
20:09:06 <ehird> so an unlambda could be shorter
20:09:08 <zzo38> But if you want to implement client unlambda, feel free to do such a things anyways
20:09:33 <ehird> oklopol: err i don't think so
20:09:44 <AnMaster> We focus on parallel, rather than concurrent, collection. In a concurrent collector the mutator and collector run at the same time, whereas we only consider garbage collecting in parallel while the mutator is paused."
20:09:50 <ehird> zzo38: isn't it just connecting the terminal to a web buffer?
20:10:07 <AnMaster> I mean what this calls a concurrent collector
20:10:13 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, i meant parallel concurrent generational GC
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20:11:46 <ehird> + it's open source, so go take a look at it
20:12:13 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't make a good GC for C
20:12:17 <AnMaster> iirc boehm-gc isn't concurrent, it can be parallel though
20:12:18 <ehird> because memory is just flat ints
20:12:25 <ehird> you cannot have a precise GC for C
20:12:35 <ehird> that's why you don't use C apart from to implement a languag.
20:12:37 <AnMaster> ehird, unless you include metadata
20:12:55 <AnMaster> you could do it with some compiler support maybe, a variant of C perhaps
20:13:22 <AnMaster> C++ new stuff would have the needed type info for example, while malloc() doesn't
20:13:30 <ehird> you would have to remove pointers
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20:13:42 <ehird> int *a = malloc(458743598734985793457983457345); write_to_file((int)a);
20:13:53 <ehird> a = read_from_file();
20:13:59 <ehird> oh crap, a is a dangling pointer.
20:14:01 <AnMaster> ehird, but I don't think that is well defined either
20:14:05 <ais523> ehird: I think technically speaking you aren't allowed to do that in C
20:14:12 <ais523> the C standard has all sorts of restrictions on what you can do with pointers
20:14:16 <ais523> specifically so garbage collection works
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20:17:49 <AnMaster> anyway has a TTF Lucida around?
20:18:29 <AnMaster> ehird, whatever makes this website saying font-family: Lucida not use the bitmap Lucida
20:18:40 <ehird> that's not helpful
20:19:21 <AnMaster> it seems to be sans from the look of it
20:19:26 <GregorR> People need to replace the term "GLBT" with "GBLT". Support your local gay bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich.
20:19:39 <AnMaster> ehird, I have dfont conversion tool around nowdays
20:19:44 <ehird> gay bacon? bacon from gay pigs?
20:20:05 <ehird> hmm, looks like I only have lucida grande.
20:20:36 <ehird> ln -s lucidagrande.ttf lucida.ttf
20:20:53 <AnMaster> "font-family:Tahoma,Lucida,Geneva,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;" and that renders with Lucida bitmapped.
20:21:06 <AnMaster> ehird, hm What about Tahoma then?
20:21:25 <ehird> tahoma is an ugly MS font
20:21:27 <ehird> like really, really ugly
20:21:33 <ehird> like oh my god my eyes fell out
20:21:56 <ehird> AnMaster: imagine verdana, right? now make it uglier.
20:22:13 <AnMaster> ehird, verdana is like an uglier Arial...
20:22:21 <ehird> verdana is like an ugly, chunky arial.
20:22:29 <AnMaster> and Arial isn't too bad in fact
20:22:50 <AnMaster> I mean, not the best font, but not the worst either
20:22:52 <ehird> because it's a cheap ripoff of helvetica
20:23:05 <ehird> i'm not even exaggerating
20:23:10 <ehird> 99% of people couldn't tel lthe differnce
20:23:14 <ehird> http://www.ms-studio.com/articlesarialsid.html
20:29:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCaml#Triangle_.28graphics.29 i love how simple this is
20:35:40 <AnMaster> File "simple.ml", line 2, characters 11-20:
20:35:53 <ehird> this c program doesn't work
20:35:55 <ehird> it says cannot find library
20:35:58 <ehird> the C program is broken
20:36:05 <AnMaster> ehird, so where would the library be?
20:36:09 <ehird> AnMaster: install lablgl.
20:36:51 <ehird> [ehird:~/Downloads/ocaml-3.11.0] % ./configure -tk-no-x11 -cc "gcc -m64"
20:36:51 <ehird> Configuring for a i686-apple-darwin9.6.0 ...
20:36:52 <ehird> The C compiler is ANSI-compliant.
20:36:54 <ehird> Checking the sizes of integers and pointers...
20:36:56 <ehird> Wow! A 64 bit architecture!
20:37:33 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't the usual autoconf configure at all,
20:37:40 <AnMaster> there is no "checking if build environment is sane"
20:38:13 <AnMaster> [ebuild N ] dev-ml/lablgl-1.03-r1 USE="glut ocamlopt tk -doc" 381 kB
20:38:22 <AnMaster> had to enable glut useflag too..
20:38:58 <AnMaster> $ ocamlopt -I +lablGL lablglut.cmxa lablgl.cmxa simple.ml -o simple
20:39:06 <AnMaster> shouldn't it be something like "lablgl.cmxa" not found
20:39:36 <AnMaster> I mean C compilers tend to say "no such header" as well as "no such symbol"
20:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I want ray tracing too! and radiocity or whatever it is called
20:40:30 <AnMaster> now that would rock in hardware
20:41:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure I have seen it as one word
20:43:03 <GregorR> test.c: 3: Error in #include <stdio.h>: 404 File not found
20:43:29 <AnMaster> GregorR, oh right I forgot the ~
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21:17:12 <oerjan> Think of the log-reading children!
21:19:33 <kerlo> Children that read these logs will become educated in things children generally aren't educated in.
21:19:51 <oerjan> yes. yes that is true.
21:20:46 <oerjan> higher math, functional programming and stuff.
21:21:39 <oerjan> oklopol: here, occasionally
21:21:51 <GregorR> Sometimes Gauss joins while smoking pot.
21:21:59 <oklopol> hmm. yes, i guess kerlo does talk in weird calculus metaphors sometimes.
21:22:01 <oerjan> lambda calculus counts, i think
21:22:44 <kerlo> Calculus metaphor: "First, we assume the universe is a straight line."
21:23:00 <oerjan> the gay sex, on the other hand, is probably nowhere near what most children know already.
21:23:19 <kerlo> What do you mean, "on the other hand"?
21:23:53 <oerjan> i mean as an example of a channel topic children cannot possibly learn anything new from.
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21:23:59 <oklopol> i think he means what he obviously means
21:24:11 <oklopol> glad i could clear it up for you
21:25:13 <oerjan> kerlo: i hear "assume a spherical cow" is well-known
21:25:17 <kerlo> Anyway, I've come to believe it would be a good idea to get a job at some point in my life.
21:25:55 <kerlo> Ah, but you see, intelligence is all about approximating the universe, and what better approximation to use than a tangent line?
21:26:16 <AnMaster> <oerjan> kerlo: i hear "assume a spherical cow" is well-known <-- spherical copy on write?
21:26:32 <oklopol> "cow" has another meaning too
21:26:33 <kerlo> Still, having applied to universities, I guess it's time to apply to colleges within those universities.
21:27:11 <oerjan> actually spherical copy-on-write might be useful for a self-replicating automaton trying to take over the universe. but don't tell it that.
21:27:15 <oklopol> i thought you were in some kinda uni already
21:27:43 <oklopol> you were talking about some calculus course
21:27:50 <oklopol> but i guess it was something like high school then?
21:28:30 <oklopol> we actually had pretty advanced calculus in high school, although very non-rigorous
21:28:38 <oklopol> would've been very useful to learn it
21:29:21 <oerjan> well obviously a self-replicating automaton would expand through the universe in a spherical pattern
21:29:45 <oerjan> and because of light speed restrictions, would have to copy information.
21:29:47 <GregorR> That's not necessarily true.
21:30:09 <oklopol> ah, our resident self-replicating killer automaton expert
21:30:23 <oklopol> what other patterns have you used?
21:30:24 <oerjan> well there would be fluctuations of course, but on _average_ you'd expect a spherical expansion
21:30:40 <kerlo> I've never liked school, though. The courses are too slow.
21:30:55 <oerjan> some of those spheres you are copying _onto_ have a tendency to resist the process
21:31:02 <oerjan> slowing it down a little
21:31:10 <GregorR> oerjan: No, on average you'd expect a consistent expansion. Any other form wouldn't take over the entire universe, but could certainly exist. An expanding ring, for example.
21:31:19 <oklopol> kerlo: the trick is to read a book and only look up every 10 minutes and catch up by guesswork.
21:31:49 <kerlo> Yeah. That doesn't help with the homework, though.
21:31:51 <oklopol> (only works for mathy stuff)
21:32:07 <Sgeo> What are we talking about? GoL?
21:32:32 <kerlo> No, real-life self-replicating automata.
21:32:38 <oklopol> kerlo: you don't have to do homework, just do them on the fly if asked.
21:32:47 <kerlo> This is all an attempt to get the phrase "spherical copy-on-write" to mean something.
21:33:42 <kerlo> Yeah, homework tends to take a while and be necessary for a good grade.
21:34:17 <Sgeo> Make a way for source code to be represented as various 3d models depending on the source code, such that the source code for some copy-on-write code is a sphere. Voila
21:34:25 <oklopol> kerlo: clearly stuff isn't too slow if you need to do all your homework to get a good grade
21:35:03 <kerlo> Are you assuming that it's the type of class where 90% of your grade is tests?
21:35:04 <oklopol> (unless you're like me, and obsess about grades enough to do everything anyway)
21:35:21 <oerjan> Sgeo: that's the IOCCC approach, i take
21:35:29 <oklopol> kerlo: hmm, right, i guess your high school is a bit different from mine.
21:36:12 <kerlo> Luckily, I have a single class where the grade does not include homework.
21:36:30 <kerlo> That's kind of offset by having another single class where all of the homework must be done in order to get credit.
21:37:48 <kerlo> Though I don't think I actually need credit for that class...
21:38:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: Esoterica. As in programming languages. Not mysticism. Don't use rafb.net for pasting because they delete pastes. Think of the log-readers. Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. The rawness is a lie..
21:39:19 <oerjan> just summing up Zzo38's research here
21:41:29 <kerlo> I want to go into a field that I know I would do well in.
21:41:57 <kerlo> But I have little idea what that would be, so I might just freak out and become a high school teacher.
21:42:11 <kerlo> An English teacher, even.
21:42:19 * oklopol is going to be an esolang mathematician
21:42:27 <oerjan> then by a freak coincidence you discover you are really good at it
21:42:41 <oklopol> ...i mean a discrete math researcher ofc
21:43:04 <kerlo> I want to be a professional guy-who-hangs-out-on-IRC-and-says-stuff-nobody-understands.
21:43:54 <kerlo> The question is how much...
21:43:56 <oerjan> <psygnisfive> is it unexpected from other countries for there to be tunnels?
21:44:30 <oerjan> in countries older than the USA the tunnels have evolved assorted monsters and stuff so it's not safe to go into them. iirc.
21:45:30 <oerjan> kerlo: maybe you could sell merchandise
21:45:30 <oklopol> older by time of declaration of independence, i presume?
21:45:55 <oklopol> because i never see any monsters here in the sewers.
21:46:01 <oerjan> oklopol: by time of university age
21:46:15 <oerjan> since those were the tunnels in question
21:47:19 * oerjan realizes that by declaration of independence his country is younger than the US :/
21:48:35 <ehird> 21:25 kerlo: Anyway, I've come to believe it would be a good idea to get a job at some point in my life.
21:48:36 <ehird> 21:25 oklopol: ...aren't you like 9
21:48:52 <ehird> if he was 9 i'd be more jealous of his skillz than I am.
21:49:35 <kerlo> ehird, how much skillz do you have?
21:50:00 <kerlo> I think that's an understatement.
21:50:12 <oklopol> ehird is a professional computer user who can install programs and do text processing
21:51:11 <ehird> oklopol: don't forget mail merge
21:51:14 <kerlo> Then again, maybe it's not.
21:52:10 <oerjan> oklopol: he could get microsoft certified, except it would kill him of boredom.
21:59:29 <oerjan> "what shall we call these projects?" "Er, uml, ..."
22:00:17 <oklopol> ehird: do you like ER? at least it's prettier!
22:01:23 <oklopol> the name comes from entities and relations, i don't remember the exact formatino
22:01:35 <oklopol> but doesn't really matter ofc
22:01:50 <oerjan> the formatino is a lightweight elementary particle used in printers
22:02:32 <oerjan> it used to be in monitors, but it couldn't handle 3D
22:03:11 <Sgeo> oerjan, is this from Uncyclopedia?
22:03:34 <oerjan> i just felt a need to explain the concept
22:05:36 <oklopol> i need to go now...................................
22:11:06 <oerjan> <ehird> sprintf has one of those stupid collapsing '_a types
22:11:33 <ehird> yeah what is that thing
22:12:28 <oerjan> you cannot have a polymorphic type on something which isn't syntactically a function
22:12:58 <oerjan> this prevents mutable variables from getting inconsistent types
22:13:21 <oerjan> it's slightly similar to haskell's monomorphism restriction
22:13:52 <oerjan> so that '_a is not allowed to be more than one type in your whole program
22:14:22 <ehird> [ehird:~/Downloads/ocaml-3.11.0] % ./configure -cc "gcc -m64"
22:14:42 <ehird> oerjan: gawd, that's such a wart
22:15:02 <oerjan> ocaml does relax it a bit, some other constant expressions are also allowed iirc
22:16:46 <oerjan> adding a dummy function parameter may help, when it actually _is_ a function
22:17:25 <ehird> eta expand you mean.
22:18:36 <ehird> 3- (Optional) To be sure everything works well, you can try to
22:18:36 <ehird> bootstrap the system --- that is, to recompile all Objective Caml
22:18:37 <ehird> sources with the newly created compiler.
22:18:40 <ehird> bootstrapping is so awesome.
22:21:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:25:05 <oerjan> <ehird> snot a very good name
22:25:21 <oerjan> i shall have you hear from my lawyer!
22:25:22 <ehird> sorry, I know that's your territory
22:25:25 <ehird> but you were away :(
22:25:29 <ais523> it depends on the channel
22:25:34 <ais523> there's another channel where I'm the resident oerjan
22:25:39 <ais523> I don't do it as well as you do, though
22:25:56 <ais523> ehird: private channel, not on freenode
22:26:03 <oerjan> well the world needs more puns
22:26:18 * ais523 suddenly realises why oerjan was so good at FRC
22:32:47 <oerjan> <ehird> I know a guy for whom BF was his first language. He's an awful programmer.
22:32:57 <oerjan> you can write brainfuck in any language
22:33:15 <ais523> it's nontrivial to write BF in BF
22:33:23 <kerlo> I can speak English in any language.
22:33:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit ("godnatt").
22:33:38 <ais523> kerlo: what does speaking English in Lojban look like?
22:33:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:34:17 <kerlo> me zoi gy. It looks like this. .gy
22:34:35 <ais523> wow, Lojban quotation looks so weird
22:34:39 <ais523> it has a strange use of points
22:36:03 <ais523> kerlo: how do you do nested quotations in Lojban?
22:36:29 <kerlo> Well, this is Lojban quotation of English text. You can't really nest that.
22:36:41 <ais523> but Lojban quotation of Lojban text?
22:36:51 <ais523> it's funny enough seeing what it does to proper nouns
22:36:57 <kerlo> If "It looks like this." were Lojban, I would have said me lu It looks like this. li'u
22:37:19 <kerlo> Then you just do nested quotes by using lu and li'u within lu and li'u.
22:38:45 <kerlo> Actually, I did that wrong. The sentence {me zoi gy. It looks like this. .gy} means "Something is specific to 'It looks like this.'"
22:39:16 <ais523> I like the way that languages like Lojban and Prolog let you express crazy overgeneralisations that sound weird in other languages
22:39:34 <ais523> I'm sure you could say something like "ais523 has some property" in Lojban
22:39:41 <ais523> relatively shortly and simply
22:39:48 <kerlo> zoi gy. It looks like this. .gy fatci
22:39:52 <kerlo> "It looks like this." is true.
22:39:59 <kerlo> Hmm, has some property.
22:40:51 <kerlo> la'o gy. ais523 .gy bu'a
22:41:11 <ais523> I never realised Lojban had so many apostrophes...
22:41:21 <ais523> just for fun, can you do the quine version of the epinimedes paradox?
22:41:41 <ais523> "yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation." yields falsehood when proceeded by its quotation.
22:43:33 <ais523> that phrase is where the term "quine" came from, by the way
22:43:39 <ais523> because it was invented by a logician called Mr. Quine
22:43:51 <ais523> and Hofstadter named the phrase after him, generalising it to any program that printed out itself
22:46:33 <kerlo> I could probably say this: (\x -> x(x) is false)(\x -> x(x) is false) is false
22:46:49 <ais523> why do you need the "is false" at the end?
22:48:26 <ehird> ((lambda (x) (not? (eval (list x (list quote x))))) '(lambda (x) (not? (eval (list x (list quote x))))))
22:48:47 <ais523> ehird: that's just an infinite loop, though, when expressed in Lisp
22:48:49 <oklopol> (best i can do for ais523 has some property)
22:48:53 <ehird> ((lambda (x) (not? (eval (list x (list 'quote x))))) '(lambda (x) (not? (eval (list x (list 'quote x))))))
22:49:00 <ehird> ais523: so? it expresses the concept
22:49:05 <ehird> of course you can't evaluate it on regular hardware.
22:49:11 <ais523> programming languages don't like paradoxes
22:49:13 <ehird> but if you could, that'd be how you do it
22:49:18 <ais523> all we need is something that can run infinite loops in 6 seconds
22:49:25 <kerlo> let x = not x in x
22:49:25 <oklopol> "zo'e" is something unspecified, "me" should convert it into a predicate, and cu would apply it
22:49:31 <ais523> come to think of it, that's why Proud is so powerful, and so highly uncomputable
22:49:35 <ais523> it runs infinite loops in finite time
22:49:51 <kerlo> oklopol: that means ais523 is specific to something.
22:49:55 <oerjan> paradoxes only like those paradoxes that don't like themselves
22:49:59 <ehird> ais523: what if you want a real infinite loop?
22:50:04 <kerlo> me zo'e = is specific to zo'e.
22:50:24 <kerlo> Also, ais523 ends in a vowel. :-P
22:50:51 <kerlo> Call him la .ais523s.
22:51:01 <ehird> "yields truthhood when preceeded by its quotation" yields truthhood when proceeded by its equation
22:51:02 <ehird> ((lambda (x) (eq? (eval (list x (list 'quote x))) #t)) '(lambda (x) (eq? (eval (list x (list 'quote x))) #t)))
22:51:12 <ais523> Lojban writes proper nouns from other languages phonetically, doesn't it?
22:51:19 <kerlo> Which would be the same thing as la .aismurecis.
22:51:21 <oklopol> kerlo: i think that "is specific to" thing is just a way to translate it, and it actually just means "convert into verb in some unspecified way".
22:51:32 <kerlo> ais523 isn't the phonetic spelling of ais523. :-))
22:51:58 <kerlo> oklopol: well, that is what the definition says.
22:52:05 <ais523> also, INTERCAL so needs a "convert into verb in some unspecified way" operator
22:52:17 <ais523> I wonder what it would do?
22:52:43 <kerlo> If you want to say that ais523 is identical to something, say du zo'e
22:52:52 <ehird> my scheme compiler
22:52:54 <ehird> will be called Ponzi
22:53:10 <ais523> oerjan: ING: syntax error
22:53:24 <kerlo> I don't think CLL contains definitions of everything.
22:53:27 <oklopol> kerlo: no, "ais523 has some property".
22:53:28 <ais523> is that based on that reddit comment?
22:53:32 <oerjan> ais523: after you convert FNORD to a verb, of course
22:53:37 <ehird> ais523: STOP READING WHAT I READ.
22:53:47 <ais523> ehird: it's your fault, you introduced me to reddir
22:53:48 <ehird> Yes. Although I am so clever I probably could have come up with it myself.
22:53:52 <ehird> After a few, um, years.
22:54:01 <ehird> ais523: I apologize profusely
22:54:05 <ehird> oklopol: ponzi scheme, googler it
22:54:16 <ehird> Cynical alternative: see US financial system
22:54:38 <oklopol> kerlo: what definition are you talking about then?
22:54:57 <kerlo> I think the official definitions are found here: http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/cmavo.txt
22:55:18 <oerjan> tc languages as ponzi schemes, a survey
22:55:25 <kerlo> Including "convert sumti to selbri/tanru element; x1 is specific to [sumti] in aspect x2
22:56:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> is that based on that reddit comment? <-- ?
22:57:13 <ais523> someone asked what was a good Scheme interp
22:57:17 <ais523> and somebody said Ponzi
22:57:46 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme ?
22:58:42 <oklopol> ehird: see, no reason to google
22:58:53 <oklopol> also i've heard that many times
22:59:11 <oklopol> but knowledge keeps draining out
22:59:17 <ais523> it's basically a pyramid scam, except that the people participating in it aren't told it's a pyramid scam in advance
22:59:20 * kerlo frowns at his network connection
23:00:07 <oklopol> *scheme, it's not a scam, it's a beautiful concept, don't call it a scam.
23:00:26 <ais523> it's a beautiful concept, but it requires an infinite number of people to work
23:00:28 <oklopol> with an infinite population, it's the way to victory.
23:01:46 <oklopol> recently i've been wondering why we don't see that many infinity effects even now that internet lets anyone be anywhere at any time.
23:02:01 <ais523> because the population is nevertheless still finite
23:02:06 <ais523> although the number of people you can reach is larger
23:02:23 <oklopol> the ##1234567890 thing was 1000-1300 people
23:02:27 <oklopol> and it was the biggest i've seen
23:02:50 <oklopol> no forums explode at random
23:03:15 <kerlo> There should be something that's popular purely due to its popularity.
23:03:19 <ais523> oklopol: and 400 of them were actively talking, it blew my mind
23:03:28 <ehird> Okay, I have a nice OCaml environment set up.
23:03:31 <ais523> kerlo: I'm pretty sure there is
23:03:34 <ehird> 64-bit, does OpenGL natively, etc. Nice.
23:03:49 <oklopol> kerlo: you mean like all celebrities
23:04:04 <ais523> well, Tara Palmer-Tomkinson is mostly famous for being a celebrity
23:04:14 <oklopol> pretty much all celebrities are
23:04:25 <ais523> I actually had to hunt down how she originally became 'famous', because the paradox was confusing me
23:04:27 <oklopol> it's not like most of them actually have any extraordinary skills
23:04:37 <ais523> most celebrities, at least I know what they're famous for
23:04:40 <ehird> we should genetically modify humans to just breed breed breed
23:04:43 <ehird> and get infinite humans
23:04:45 <ais523> ehird: no we shouldn't
23:04:47 <ehird> super-exponential breeding
23:04:51 <ais523> the world can't support an infinite population
23:04:58 <ehird> ais523: but, but, best gravitational collapse ever!
23:05:16 <ais523> I don't want to be part of it
23:05:21 <ais523> and there's only one planet populated at the moment
23:05:27 <ais523> go off to some other habitable planet and do it there
23:05:31 <ais523> so that it won't bother me
23:05:44 <ehird> SORRY YOU'LL JUST HAVE TO ADJUST.
23:05:54 <oklopol> ehird: you mean like shit covered in icecream is the best-tasting shit?
23:06:16 <oklopol> well yes i'd agree with you, at least can't come up with a more awesome way atn
23:06:41 * oerjan googles Tara Palmer-Tomkinson
23:06:52 <ehird> i love htat ocaml triangle rotatey
23:07:08 * kerlo Wikipedias Tara Palmer-Tomkinson
23:08:04 <ais523> you know, even after reading the Wikipedia article I'm still not entirely sure what she's famous for, other than being famous
23:08:09 <oerjan> well it's not as if google didn't lead straight there
23:08:19 * Sgeo doesn't know who that person is
23:08:24 <ais523> that's why I go straight to Wikipedia, cut out the middleman
23:08:48 <ais523> Sgeo: you probably have to be British to recognise her as being famous, we don't export our fame time-loops to other countries
23:09:00 <oerjan> oh but here the other day i actually found a google search where britannia came above wikipedia
23:09:02 <ehird> i think ocaml may be my fav language.
23:09:12 <oerjan> too bad the britannia article still sucked
23:09:28 <ehird> 15:08:04 <ais523> you know, even after reading the Wikipedia article I'm still not entirely sure what she's famous for, other than being famous
23:09:28 <ais523> I like OCaml too, despite it having annoyances
23:09:32 <ehird> sounds like paris hilton
23:09:39 <ais523> but paris hilton is famous for having a rich father
23:09:48 <kerlo> Anyway, it looks like Lojban doesn't really have lambdas, so I'll have to make do with SKI combinators.
23:09:52 <ehird> ais523: well, sure
23:10:05 <ehird> now she's just famous because she's paris hilton, the famous celebrity
23:10:16 <ais523> yes, but you still know why she was originally famous
23:10:25 <kerlo> Unfortunately, Lojban doesn't have SKI combinators either.
23:10:25 <ais523> it's OK for fame to be self-sustaining once it starts, that isn't paradoxical
23:10:30 <ais523> but it has to start somehow
23:11:30 <oerjan> ais523: are you not really implying it was the Doctor who made her famous?
23:11:42 * Sgeo didn't know why she was originally famous
23:11:47 <ehird> ais523: you got assigned to a cfj.
23:11:47 <ais523> oerjan: it needs some sort of timeloop to become famous merely for being famous
23:11:58 <ais523> I'll answer it later when I see how the other related one is going
23:13:35 <ehird> ocaml may not be lazy, but it's really fast, I like the syntax, it's good for scripting and it has great library support.
23:14:04 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Emnanmuuel.
23:14:15 <ais523> I find ocaml has a few annoyances, but it's a great language anyway
23:14:24 <ais523> the things I don't like about it are niggles rather than fundamental
23:14:30 <ehird> it's sort of Worse is Better Haskell
23:15:36 <ehird> ais523: incidentally, does the lack of readline in ocaml's repl annoy you too?
23:15:42 <ehird> alias ocaml="ledit ocaml"
23:15:43 <ais523> OCaml's only flaws are lack of operator overloading, types not being as flexible as they should be, and not being Haskell
23:15:44 <ehird> which makes things nice
23:15:49 <oerjan> oh nnoeh, ist's Emnanmuuel!l!
23:15:50 <ais523> also, I don't use the REPL
23:15:59 <ais523> I've been compiling not interpreting
23:16:09 <ais523> I've used it a couple of times to test things
23:16:23 <ais523> but not enough to notice it didn't have a readlinealike
23:18:49 <ehird> you really should use it
23:21:11 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:21:45 <ais523> oklopol: what are the options?
23:21:52 <ais523> or do you just have some money and feel like buying something/
23:22:10 -!- Emnanmuuel has changed nick to Sgeo.
23:22:21 <ehird> a magic the gathering card that serves as a mac!
23:22:45 <ehird> buy the gas station.
23:22:55 <ehird> *i think outside of the box*
23:23:07 <ehird> hmm, ocaml has no nice-looking objective-c bridge
23:23:09 <ehird> I shall rectify this!
23:23:20 <oklopol> ehird: that's not outside the box, that *is* the box
23:23:32 <ais523> buy the foundations of the gas station
23:23:47 <ais523> then go and sell them to people building a new gas station
23:23:57 <ais523> and watch as the old one slowly sinks into the ground
23:23:57 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has joined.
23:24:19 <oerjan> actually aren't the gas tanks usually underground?
23:24:20 * oklopol considers asking somewhere else.... or just going
23:24:40 <ehird> 23:23 ais523: buy the foundations of the gas station
23:24:40 <ehird> 23:23 ais523: then go and sell them to people building a new gas station
23:24:42 <ehird> 23:23 ais523: and watch as the old one slowly sinks into the ground
23:24:44 <ehird> one of my new favourite quotes
23:25:15 <oerjan> oklopol: buy ice cream
23:25:30 <oerjan> it's march, and spring!
23:25:42 <ehird> buy ice cream-covered shit
23:25:44 <oklopol> well okay i like ice cream
23:25:45 <ehird> it's the best kind of shit
23:25:54 <kerlo> How dare you claim it to be March?
23:26:09 <oklopol> but it's not a treat, it's just an okay genre of food
23:26:49 <oerjan> oklopol: well i don't know how fancy the food in finnish gas stations is
23:27:17 -!- MichaelRaskin_ has left (?).
23:27:27 <oklopol> it's bigger than you might think
23:27:37 <oklopol> still bigger than you think
23:28:22 <oerjan> buy a steak filet mignon with baked potatoe and bearnaise sauce
23:28:51 <oerjan> oh wait i'm channeling dan quayle here
23:29:42 * ais523 is amused not just that #IRP is the only esolang with a channel that actually sometimes gets conversations, but that it has an substantially different set of regulars to #esoteric
23:30:35 <oerjan> huh. well i obviously cannot be a regular in a channel i thought was dead, can i? :D
23:30:53 <ais523> that's the funny thing
23:30:59 <ais523> I wonder if the #IRP regulars thought #esoteric was dead?
23:31:13 <ais523> #IRP isn't dead, it's just pining for the fjords
23:31:17 <oerjan> #esoteric, the zombie channel
23:32:35 <oerjan> well, there is also #perl
23:37:01 <ehird> ais523: can you think of a non-horrid way to write let pool = (NSAutoreleasePool.alloc ()).init () in ?
23:37:04 <ehird> specifically, the alloc/init bit
23:37:21 <ais523> write a wrapper function?
23:37:28 <ais523> my OCaml programs are full of wrapper functions
23:37:37 <ehird> nah, there's a _lot_ of method chaining in objc
23:37:39 <oerjan> i am not sure whether zzo38's abbreviation "S-m Puzzlang" is well thought or not
23:37:41 <ehird> ideally, this'd be possible:
23:37:50 <ehird> chain NSAutoReleasePool [.alloc (), .init ()]
23:38:01 <ehird> ais523: self-modifying puzzlang
23:38:06 <ehird> sadism-masochism puzzlang
23:38:12 <ehird> I doubt he thought of the latter meaning, he's just a kid. I think.
23:38:48 <oerjan> _you_ are just a kid, and you thought of it
23:39:05 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:39:05 <ehird> yes, but, I'm a kid who had the internet @ 4 years of age
23:39:11 <ehird> that kind of fucks you up.
23:39:42 <oerjan> i thought zzo38 could be explained in the same way, really
23:39:55 <oklopol> i only got a stable internet connection when i was like 16
23:40:00 <oklopol> until then i only used it for porn
23:40:03 <ehird> ais523: no ideas? OK then
23:40:26 <ais523> ehird: it's self-modifying, I have the wiki recent changes in my rss feed
23:40:30 <ehird> oerjan: he doesn't seem fucked up, just a bit um... okay, he said he was reading the logs, I'll stop here, but it starts with an a and ends m
23:40:38 <ehird> ais523: I know, I was explaining what oerjan was saying
23:40:45 <oerjan> ehird: is that different from NSAutoreleasePool.alloc().init() ?
23:41:11 <ehird> oerjan: isn't that:
23:41:18 <ehird> NSAutoReleasePool.alloc (().init ())?
23:42:06 <oerjan> ehird: he has it as an icon on his wikipedia user page
23:42:28 <ehird> oerjan: technically, a.s. != autism
23:42:39 <ehird> (a.s. is a subset of autism)
23:42:56 <ehird> i used to be one of those highly annoying interwebs people who self-diagnosed aspergers syndrome to explain their social problems
23:42:59 <ehird> god I was an idiot.
23:43:05 <oerjan> ehird: does ocaml care about spaces after . ? maybe it does
23:43:10 <ehird> "This person does not understand Python (or understands it with considerable difficulties, or does not want to program in Python)."
23:43:38 <ais523> ehird: that's a parody of the babel box wording standardisation
23:43:57 <oerjan> ehird: well, my _dad_ is trying to diagnose me with it to explain my social problems...
23:44:25 <ais523> <Cynos> I fail to see how a choice of tool is a moral choice. Unless there's a service that runs by default in Windows that kills babies that I'm missing.
23:44:37 <ehird> ais523: it's called FeedBillGates
23:46:41 <oerjan> ah so that is why he wants to vaccinate them, so there'll be more to eat
23:47:12 <oerjan> and here i thought it was for a good ethical reason
23:47:25 <oerjan> well, a different good ethical reason
23:50:41 <ehird> http://hashesoteric.pastebin.com/f81fcfbd <- translation of this program: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaFundamentals/CocoaObjects/chapter_3_section_2.html to OCaml
23:50:47 <ehird> using hypothetical bindings that I will write.
23:50:48 <ehird> who cares? nobody.
23:51:09 <ais523> but probably not enough to be worth caring about
23:52:11 <ehird> I wonder how you extract a Some?
23:52:54 <ehird> is that the only way in ocaml?
23:53:00 <ais523> ehird: pattern matching is very common
23:53:07 <ais523> and used to extract more or less anything
23:53:13 <ehird> let Some word' = word in
23:53:44 <ehird> http://hashesoteric.pastebin.com/f1442a195 updatered version
23:53:48 <oerjan> actually if you have a None test then that should probably also be in the match
23:54:00 <ehird> oerjan: i'm trying to translate the example literally
23:54:10 <ehird> compare http://hashesoteric.pastebin.com/f1442a195 to the objective-c in http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaFundamentals/CocoaObjects/chapter_3_section_2.html
23:54:24 <ehird> the ocaml is easier to read though, I couldn't fix that ;-)
23:54:33 <ehird> it sorts its command-line arguments, fwiw.
23:55:27 -!- Random832 has joined.
23:55:33 <ehird> what brings you here?
23:55:37 <ehird> lotsa wikipedia people recently
23:55:41 <ais523> ehird: he's an esolangs.org person
23:55:46 <ais523> who found #IRP but not #esoteric, somehow
23:55:47 <oerjan> something purely by chance, probably
23:55:57 <Random832> well sort of - i'd been reading some stuff on esolangs.org because i found it via the wikipedia brainfuck article
23:56:14 <ehird> welcome. now get to sacrificing those goats.
23:56:21 <Random832> and wrote a brainfuck compiler (well not so much wrote as ported someone else's to C#)
23:56:32 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
23:56:53 <ehird> fungot is written in befunge
23:56:54 <fungot> ehird: not haskell! explain why haskell is a lot
23:56:58 <ehird> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
23:56:59 <fungot> ehird: but... i did pre /pre and mediawiki translated the to <
23:57:06 <ehird> fungot: sorry, fizzie wrote you in befunge, not haskell
23:57:07 <fungot> ehird: many thanks, i know. i don't have a tailcall instruction though.
23:57:11 <ais523> wow, yet more useful fungot output
23:57:11 <Random832> fungot: mediawiki does that with <pre>
23:57:11 <fungot> ais523: in scheme48 1.3, though. i sometimes write some stuff in my youth fnord teach me something
23:57:12 <fungot> Random832: xors are conditional inverters :) so i wouldn't have the patience for.
23:57:20 <ehird> fungot: you could write a fingerprint for subroutines with tail calls
23:57:20 <fungot> ehird: how did you find this from demi, someone might've pasted it already though;
23:57:21 <oerjan> fungot: are you saying you would have liked more to be written in haskell?
23:57:21 <fungot> oerjan: i suspect. ( guessing, entropika should know.))
23:57:33 <ehird> fungot: who is entropika? an entropy-filled pikachu?
23:57:34 <fungot> ehird: tapio wanted to pay back almost everything) will use strings in lieu of judging, i think i have
23:57:39 <fungot> Random832: ( ( fnord) on a farm? :)
23:57:42 <ehird> fungot: strings are useful for judging things
23:57:43 <fungot> ehird: hm problem is a problem. it set-car!'d the car of your list to one with such a thing
23:57:45 <ais523> fungot's a bot, written in befunge
23:57:46 <fungot> ais523: a pointer is 4 bytes.
23:57:47 <ehird> Random832: source code: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
23:57:48 <fungot> ehird: in that case, you should consider: a functional programming thingy? there aren't any
23:57:52 <ehird> it runs brainfuck, underload, and blabs.
23:58:04 <ehird> fungot: i dunno, I've seen functional programming thingys before
23:58:05 <fungot> ehird: so don't leave them, eat the cheese :d ( re fnord :)
23:58:17 <ehird> fungot: is cheese like loeb?
23:58:18 <fungot> ehird: bothner may be right.) still don't cut it these days. not that new users are a bad idea, that
23:58:25 <ehird> and he stops being coherent.
23:58:53 <Random832> what kind of optimizations are common in brainfuck compilers?
23:59:00 <Random832> other than +++++ to an "add 5" type instruction i mean
23:59:06 <oerjan> ehird: if entropika loses, the universe ends...
23:59:29 <ehird> Random832: you can change any loop with balanced [ and ] and no IO to a polynomial , I believe
23:59:46 <ehird> see http://mazonka.com/brainf/bff4.c
23:59:48 <Random832> you mean balanced < and > - they always have balanced [ and ]