←2009-09-19 2009-09-20 2009-09-21→ ↑2009 ↑all
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00:54:50 <ehird> 07:32:22 <ais523> for one thing, it wouldn't have any available screen resolutions that Vista would be able to comprehend
00:54:50 <ehird> 07:32:47 <ais523> if you wanted to go as high as 16 colours, the screen res was something awful like 160x120
00:54:55 <ehird> it could do that I'm sure
00:55:06 <ehird> 98-type things could do 1-bit
00:55:49 <ehird> (I'm skipping logreading the middle day...)
00:55:51 <ehird> 07:41:56 <AnMaster> any guess when SSD may be more common than harddrives?
00:55:51 <ehird> 07:42:17 <AnMaster> or at least be equal or better in price, capacity and speed.
00:56:00 <ehird> about 5 years for the consumer market
00:56:13 <ehird> but HDs will still be big for ages, I imagine; even in the consumer market
00:56:17 <ehird> for servers, a million years
00:56:21 <ehird> HDs are very orthodox
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01:05:09 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, are you there?
01:06:27 <oerjan> no, your vestiges of sanity are safe for now
01:07:06 <ehird> 07:52:42 <AnMaster> think it was 450 GB disk
01:07:06 <ehird> 450 GiB = 483 GB
01:07:12 <ehird> so prolly 500GB disks
01:07:30 <ehird> 07:53:21 <AnMaster> often small cases, that look like it could be a thin client (they aren't quite that though)
01:07:30 <ehird> mini-atx is quite popular these days
01:08:04 <ehird> 10:45:22 <fungot> AnMaster: they made a noise like someone trying to organise yet another bucket chain from the river and it was.
01:08:05 <fungot> ehird: he took a great deal that's got to be more and more dwarfs were coming to work in a dark alley, a voice which only he heard said: so... this classroom is in some way driven by the brain, eh?
01:08:08 <ehird> ^style
01:08:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
01:08:29 <ehird> "and it was" at the end made my brain put that quote to the tune of And She Was
01:08:43 <ehird> except very skewed
01:09:59 <ehird> anyway, what is the noise of someone trying to organise yet another bucket chain from the river?
01:11:28 <ehird> 14:30:14 <oerjan> btw if you don't know what killer sudoku is, it's like sudoku except you get no initial cell values - instead you get an additional division into "cages", and are given the sum of the values in each cage
01:11:30 <ehird> aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
01:11:49 <ehird> i don't consider sudoku nor that worthy of the title game
01:11:52 <ehird> but for different reasons
01:11:57 <ehird> sudoku's too easy, that's too evil
01:13:25 <ehird> 15:06:30 <Deewiant> American English shouldn't be classified as English
01:13:25 <ehird> 15:06:31 <Deewiant> It's too crap
01:13:25 <ehird> I'm tempted to start using American English spelling because it's less crufty
01:14:07 <ehird> 15:07:58 <Gregor> AnMaster: We just love zees more than brits because "zed" sounds so stupid.
01:14:07 <ehird> I HATE ZED; we used to sing the abc song in school like that and it totally broke the flow
01:14:37 <ehird> "queue arr ess, tee you vee, double you ecks, why and zed"
01:14:39 <ehird> NO
01:14:40 <ehird> THAT IS AWFUL
01:14:41 <ehird> IT SHOULD BE
01:14:44 <ehird> "queue arr ess, tee you vee, double you ecks, why and zeeeeeeeeeee"
01:14:45 <ehird> rant oevr
01:14:46 <ehird> over
01:15:19 <Gregor> ehird: Tragically born on the wrong side of the pond.
01:15:35 <ehird> Gregor: on the other hand, self-loathing possibly beats rampant consumerism
01:15:56 <Gregor> Dood rampant consumerism RULES.
01:16:20 <ehird> Dood rampant consumerism rules: 1. Buy things. 2. A lot.
01:16:27 <ehird> 3. Make them fit for a dood.
01:17:21 <oerjan> ehird: tatham's killer sudoku got a lot easier after i had that realization before the quote, now i've solved everyone i tried (except possibly one i interrupted), while before i'd only managed a single one afair
01:19:18 <oerjan> although i'd managed a few in the weekend newspaper before, obviously they were much easier
01:19:55 <ehird> 15:08:51 <Gregor> AnMaster: You see that airplane flying over your head? My joke is on that airplane.
01:19:55 <ehird> 15:09:29 <AnMaster> Gregor, what do you mean with airplane?
01:19:55 <ehird> 15:09:44 <Gregor> AnMaster: MY META-JOKE IS ALSO ON THAT FUCKING AIRPLANE
01:20:02 <ehird> can I hitch a ride?
01:20:12 <ehird> i have this bomb, you see...
01:20:49 <ehird> 15:11:31 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> If calculus is over my head, then I do not understand calculus. <-- I pitty you
01:20:49 <ehird> xD
01:20:55 <ehird> there goes 'nother one
01:24:27 <ehird> 02:35:45 <AnMaster> ais523, he must be weak if he can't pull out an usb stick!
01:24:28 <ehird> true for once
01:24:35 <ehird> the magnetic thing is just so it doesn't poke you, i guess
01:24:41 <ehird> but yeah, I'm just weak. it's out now
01:24:45 <ehird> however
01:24:53 <ehird> it's way strnoger than any other stuck I've tried to pull out
01:24:53 <ehird> ...
01:24:54 <ehird> usb that is
01:25:07 <ehird> Fin.
01:25:21 <oerjan> Konec.
01:47:47 <ehird> A village in south-estern Slovenia.
01:47:55 <ehird> *eastern
01:53:31 <ehird> [[In terms of her biographical details, Marie Bila is a 77 year-old grandmother, who lives in small village in the Czech Republic with a cat called Jasmina, 15 chickens and goat Liza.
01:53:31 <ehird> This year however, she's become Granny Coder, and is proving you're never too old to become a game developer.
01:53:31 <ehird> On her blog, and helped by her three grandsons, she's been documenting the process of making her first game - an iPhone physics puzzle game called Gelex.]]
01:54:07 <ehird> Just wait 'til it gets rejected!
01:55:28 <ehird> It's probably bullshit:
01:55:30 <ehird> [[Someone who only has a basic knowledge of C/C++ in "IT Projects" makes a game concept on paper on August 28th. 22 days later they have a fully working game on a foreign platform in a foreign graphics API in a language that isn't C/C++ with self-made professional quality art, and is now posting about topics like using --ffast-math to compile the physics library, using degenerate triangle strips, and using HSV as an intermediate format for better color shift
01:56:35 <oerjan> ehird: also "End" in Czech
01:56:51 <ehird> There's a place in the UK called Nowhere IIRC
01:57:31 <oerjan> and there's a place in Norway called Hell (Less than an hour's drive from here)
01:59:16 <oerjan> (there is also a place close to my birth town called the norwegian translation of that, but that's a very local name so not famous)
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03:33:10 <ehird> What should I name this Ubuntu machine, I've been stuck at this prompt for 70 years :|
03:35:45 <oerjan> something african perhaps
03:36:01 <ehird> What's african for butt.
03:36:07 <ehird> :-P
03:36:07 <oerjan> :D
03:37:04 <oerjan> hmph this swahili dictionary has no match
03:37:43 <oerjan> not this zulu one either...
03:38:26 <ehird> Well, "anus" is probably more likely.
03:38:45 <oerjan> nah
03:39:03 <ehird> Ubuntu is a Bantu word, it seems.
03:39:52 <oerjan> bah punda means ass as in donkey
03:40:29 <ehird> Maybe "panda".
03:40:36 * oerjan gives up
03:41:26 <oerjan> try "mugabe", that's _almost_ the same isn't it?
03:42:44 <ehird> :D
03:43:51 <oerjan> and you then still have a perfect explanation if someone asks you why you named it that
03:44:14 <ehird> "I hate white people."
03:44:22 <oerjan> well, that too.
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04:01:02 <ehird> I eventually picked the imaginative name of "ehird-desktop"
04:02:45 <oerjan> i'm sure that means something rude in betelgeusean
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07:31:31 <ehird> Gregor: ping
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08:58:40 <ehird> i test lika this: one two tree
08:58:42 <ehird> a
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09:17:35 <ehird> test
09:17:37 <ehird> test
09:17:42 <Deewiant> tset
09:18:03 <ehird> xchat-gnome sucks but xchat is worse :(
09:20:35 <ehird> haha, i love you ubuntu
09:20:47 <ehird> you can define a compose key entirely with the mouse
09:21:10 <ehird> system -> preferences -> keyboard -> layouts -> layout options -> compose key position
09:21:49 <ehird> issue: the compose key, by default, is missing a bunch
09:21:56 <ehird> compose -> isn't defined
09:22:03 <ehird> compose .. produces ˙, not (...)
09:27:15 <ehird> :\
09:27:41 <ehird> xchat-gnome would be fine if it had more line spacing between ... lines
09:27:58 <ehird> brb
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09:28:52 <ehird> Deewiant: can you say "ehird: foo" in a second? kthx
09:28:57 <Deewiant> ehird: foo
09:29:01 <Deewiant> Sorry, 3 seconds late
09:29:07 <ehird> That was good
09:29:38 <ehird> So, xchat-gnome wishlist: more line spacing, support that fancy notification menu thing that Ubuntu has.
09:38:08 <ehird> (33 × 72) ÷ 29
09:38:15 <ehird> At least the Compose key makes that easy.
09:38:29 <ehird> (Compose x x and Compose :-)
09:38:35 <ehird> *: -
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10:07:44 <ehird> test
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10:11:17 <ehird> Deewiant, can I enslave you? ping me yo
10:11:51 <Deewiant> ehird: ping
10:11:59 <ehird> hmm
10:12:52 <ehird> xchat is kind of shit :x
10:14:09 <ehird> would be nice if there was a gtk irc client that didn't suck.
10:16:26 <ehird> also, epiphany should let you middle-click a tab to close it.
10:16:29 <ehird> or rather gnome should.
10:16:32 <ehird> prolly a binding somewhere.
10:17:11 <ehird> oh, and it would be nice if you could resize a smart bookmark. and give it a keyboard shortcut.
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11:32:23 <ehird> So, all GTK IRC clients suffer from an extreme case of suck.
11:32:41 <ehird> I'm really dreading writing my own :-P
11:35:46 <AnMaster> <ehird> it's way strnoger than any other stuck I've tried to pull out <-- an usb stuck?
11:36:21 <ehird> Yes.
11:36:23 <ehird> A USB stuck.
11:36:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Hey, can you ping me again? I don't think I got an OSD notification for that.
11:37:05 <AnMaster> ehird, ok.
11:37:11 <ehird> Yeah, that worked.
11:37:11 <AnMaster> (done)
11:37:21 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe only in <>?
11:37:27 <AnMaster> shall we try that?
11:37:30 <ehird> Sure.
11:37:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> it's way strnoger than any other stuck I've tried to pull out <-- an usb stuck?
11:37:44 <AnMaster> did it work?
11:37:46 <ehird> Well, that worked. Guess I was just anti-hallucinating.
11:37:59 <ehird> Anyway, Ubuntu is good. Not awesomely great, but good.
11:38:14 <ehird> Although it's only a few niggles away from awesomely great.
11:39:10 <AnMaster> ehird, debootstrap is good. However the reason I needed it is because ubuntu's multilib packages are missing so much.
11:39:24 <ehird> I'm not sure how that's related to what I said :P
11:39:28 <AnMaster> for when you want to cross compile to 32-bit
11:39:36 <ehird> Ah.
11:39:38 <ehird> Um... -m32?
11:39:44 <ehird> Libs, I guess.
11:39:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah sure, but doesn't help when the libs are missing
11:39:54 <ehird> Right.
11:40:07 <AnMaster> or when they are there but the stuff needed to link to them aren't
11:40:26 <AnMaster> like the *.la files
11:42:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh yeah, I meant to tell you. If you want to use less watts on your laptop, tell HAL to stop polling the optical drive.
11:42:25 <ehird> (You are free to stare at the implications of that sentence for a few minutes in awe.)
11:43:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I know about that. Since ages.
11:43:23 <ehird> Pretty amazingly terrible.
11:43:52 <AnMaster> ehird, thing is, my laptop is probably new enough to support the "cd drive notifies about events instead of having to be polled"
11:44:03 <ehird> I'm fairly sure every optical drive ever has done that.
11:44:09 <ehird> But still,
11:44:10 <AnMaster> ehird, nop.
11:44:13 <ehird> s/ $//
11:44:17 <AnMaster> it is a fairly new feature
11:44:24 <ehird> AnMaster: In HAL maybe. Not in drives.
11:44:29 <AnMaster> ehird, yes in drives
11:44:56 <ehird> OS X, at least, reacts as soon as I put a disk in the drive with no delay whatsoever, so either Macs once again save the day with good engineering or "polling" means "every ms".
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11:45:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well right, OS X maybe, but what about normal PCs?
11:45:43 <AnMaster> macs (almost) always had good hardware
11:45:50 <ehird> If it's the hardware(, stupid,) then it is almost certainly common as Macs use a third-party drive.
11:46:04 <ehird> If it's the software(, stupid,) then OS X has some magical polling technique that uses zero watts..
11:46:33 <ehird> s/\.{2}/./
11:47:45 <ehird> Also, the latest Ubuntu must have regressed ATI drivers or something.
11:47:53 <AnMaster> "Newer SATA-based CDROM drives have the capability to notify the machine when a CD gets inserted, making polling unnecessary. Both the kernel and hal are currently undergoing development to detect and support this capability, so that polling is not needed at any time for these devices."
11:47:59 <AnMaster> from http://www.lesswatts.org/tips/disks.php
11:48:03 <ehird> Well, the only fglrx that supports this new X11 version dropped support for the X1600 and other "old" cards.
11:48:18 <ehird> So I guess I was using fglrx on older versions and now I'm seeing the shittiness of the open source drivers.
11:48:19 <AnMaster> and iirc the last versions does support it now
11:48:57 <AnMaster> how old is X1600?
11:49:28 <ehird> Well, it came with this 2006 Mac, and Macs use recent hardware.
11:49:39 <ehird> So maybe 2005 release, earliest.
11:49:58 <AnMaster> that is old enough for ATI or nvidia to drop support yeah
11:50:05 <ehird> It's not a high-end card, and it's a notebook card (iMacs are notebooks with big screens, right down to using mobile processors).
11:50:14 <AnMaster> XD
11:50:33 <AnMaster> ehird, so the only macs with desktop components are the mac pros?
11:50:40 <ehird> I don't think that's very XD; it lets Apple reuse the internals of their notebook models and it also uses less power. It's not like it's slower or anything.
11:50:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Those don't use desktop components, they use server/high-end workstation components (like Xeon).
11:51:02 <AnMaster> so no macs use desktop components?
11:51:23 <ehird> Correct.
11:51:35 <AnMaster> unusual
11:51:48 <ehird> Keep in mind that desktop components run hot enough that the iMac would have to be thicker to account for the beefier heatsink. Either that or louder because of a fastest fan.
11:51:53 <AnMaster> why don't everyone use laptop components in desktops? are they more expensive?
11:51:56 <ehird> They'd also use lots more power.
11:52:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Not really fit for a tower case, I guess.
11:52:23 <ehird> I imagine they may be cheaper than similarly-performing desktop components.
11:52:34 <ehird> So I'd say inertia, and a misguided devotion to the clock cycles.
11:52:46 <ehird> Plus tower cases (which suck anyway).
11:52:56 <AnMaster> what is wrong with tower cases?
11:53:06 <ehird> s/the clock cycles/clock cycles/
11:53:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Unneeded for anything but workstations. They waste space and, fundamentally, they're a Bad object: you never *use* the tower. It's sitting there because it has to.
11:53:45 <ehird> Nobody wants a big box in their house that doesn't, in itself, *do* anything for them.
11:54:09 <AnMaster> ehird, sure does, it contains the CPU. GPU, PSU, and so on
11:54:18 <ehird> No, it doesn't. You don't sit in front of the tower and use it.
11:54:39 <ehird> You use your display, audio devices, keyboard, pointing devices...
11:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, according to that logic, something like a cable "modem" would be equally hated.
11:54:52 <ehird> The box, in itself, does not a single thing but sit there and hum.
11:54:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Did I say hated?
11:55:07 <AnMaster> well not as such, maybe just "disliked"
11:55:13 <ehird> If someone could make their cable model disappear and just have a wire going from the wall, yes, of course they'd do it.
11:55:54 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, a tower case is a lot easier to open and clean than a cramped computer. And easier to replace components in
11:56:16 <ehird> The box itself is useless: it gives multiple ethernet ports, which could be integrated into the wall socket. Apart from that, it has a reset button (which could go into the same wall socket) and annoying, useless LEDs.
11:56:25 <ehird> So yeah, cable modems suck.
11:56:43 <AnMaster> I imagine it isn't trivial to do much maintenance on imacs apart from installing RAM and some other basic stuff (replace harddrive maybe?)
11:56:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, the expandability is their only advantage.
11:56:59 <ehird> No, replacing the harddrive is non-trivial and almost certainly warranty-voiding.
11:57:07 <AnMaster> ehird, how easy is it to clean the dust from the heatsink inside your imac?
11:57:17 <ehird> AnMaster: It doesn't collect any because the space is so compact and sealed off.
11:57:28 <AnMaster> ehird, sealed off, so no fan either?
11:57:31 <ehird> Well, I say "any"; I mean any meaningful amount.
11:57:45 <ehird> AnMaster: The exhaust slot is too small to fit even a pencil head through.
11:57:54 <AnMaster> any filters in the intake?
11:58:05 <ehird> I don't know, I can't even look at it.
11:58:08 <ehird> It's tiny.
11:58:16 <ehird> Well, there's a cheese grater thing on the bottom.
11:58:21 <ehird> But that's the thing, it's on the bottom.
11:58:39 <ehird> Dust doesn't spontaneously slide under an iMac and then jump up really high, I find.
11:58:42 <AnMaster> well sure, but that wouldn't stop the dust from entering would it? Larger particles yes, but not dust as such
11:59:05 <ehird> To travel as far as the CPU in such a compact space that's so hard to enter would be a feat.
11:59:19 <ehird> Anyway, the iMac is pretty sealed; there aren't even any screws on the back.
11:59:27 <AnMaster> some dust will reach it. though probably much less than on a usual tower design
11:59:37 <ehird> You can open up the RAM slot and I guess the dissecting sort of crowd opens it from that cramped space.
11:59:39 <AnMaster> ehird, ouch, plastic snapping thingies?
11:59:44 <ehird> No, the RAM slot is screws.
11:59:50 <ehird> But it just opens to two RAM slots and a wall.
11:59:55 <ehird> It's on the bottom.
11:59:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant the rest of it
12:00:02 <ehird> No.
12:00:03 <ehird> It's sealed.
12:00:09 <ehird> You cannot possibly open it without going through the bottom.
12:00:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well, how do authorised service people get in then
12:00:31 <ehird> Well, I *guess* you could pry the back plastic across from the rest of the form, but it's very deeply embedded.
12:00:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Probably via the RAM slots.
12:00:46 <AnMaster> hm
12:00:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Or taking off the bottom cheese-grater.
12:01:12 <AnMaster> wait, which imac model is this? hm
12:01:17 <ehird> which houses the RAM slots and the speaker holes, and is the intake (I guess).
12:01:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Late 2006; the later ones are aluminium and thinner. I don't know if they remove the cheese grater.
12:01:49 <ehird> http://a.images.blip.tv/Bleedingedge-BleedingEdgeTV178IMacRAMUpgradeOnTheCheap520.jpg
12:01:52 <AnMaster> ehird, not the ones that are like a TFT on an arm mounted on a half ball?
12:01:53 <ehird> Slightly different.
12:02:10 <ehird> Now the cheese greater is in two parts and doesn't cover the whole bottom, and the RAM slots are side-by-side (presumably for thinness).
12:02:15 <ehird> AnMaster: No, that's the 2002 model.
12:02:18 <AnMaster> ah
12:02:29 <ehird> (2002 to 2004 iMac G5)
12:02:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I love that design, though.
12:02:38 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't 2002 the age of the bright colours?
12:02:45 <ehird> No, that's 1998-2002.
12:02:45 <AnMaster> or was that more like 2000-2001?
12:02:48 <AnMaster> ah
12:03:01 <ehird> It was quite a departure from existing computer designs, which were, well... 90s.
12:03:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: I love that design, though. <-- ball one?
12:03:10 <ehird> Yeah.
12:03:17 <AnMaster> ehird, beige goes with everything!
12:03:27 <ehird> Beige goes with beige. :P
12:04:01 <ehird> The iMac G4 (ball/pivot design) is pretty much my favourite desktop computer design ever.
12:04:13 <AnMaster> my tower is more like: "black metal and silver coloured plastic goes with everything"
12:04:40 <ehird> It looks like it has a computer in it even less than the later designs, the LCD was fully tiltable and a separate unit so you could focus on it (as opposed to the additional borders in later designs).
12:04:40 <AnMaster> oh and blue leds around power button to indicate it is on
12:04:47 <AnMaster> in a circle around the power button yeah
12:05:09 <ehird> Plus, the ball was really small. Additionally, the optical drive was horizontal, which means that it'll spin the discs with less fighting of physics than the later models.
12:05:37 <AnMaster> vertical cd drives always make me nervous
12:05:59 <AnMaster> same for vertical harddrives
12:06:20 <ehird> Issues with the original iMac G4: small screens (15"-17" iirc), slow hardware by today's standards (G4).
12:06:24 <AnMaster> and the modern imacs looks like they aren't even completely vertical, but slightly tilted
12:06:26 <ehird> Erm, iMac G4.
12:06:30 <ehird> Not the original iMac.
12:06:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, they are.
12:06:51 <AnMaster> and that makes me even more nervous
12:06:55 <ehird> But the components are really reliable, so it's fine.
12:07:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Notebook components, remember.
12:07:20 <ehird> They're designed to be tilted.
12:07:29 <ehird> (see e.g. all those tilted notebook stands)
12:07:37 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of connectors does that imac have? Any external video connectors for use with projectors and such?
12:07:47 <ehird> Heck, the better notebooks withstand a fall of a few feet while accessing the disk.
12:08:21 <AnMaster> ehird, that is only because they have an accelerometer and pull the head off the harddisk in a split second
12:08:31 <ehird> AnMaster: It's changed in the later models, I think, but this one has two audio ports, three USB ports, two FireWire ports, an Ethernet port and an Apple-display-connector-of-the-week port.
12:08:47 <ehird> Also, I was just emphasising that notebook components are built to withstand a lot.
12:08:52 <AnMaster> Apple-display-connector-of-the-week <-- how fitting. Tell me, what one was it then?
12:09:10 <ehird> Mini-DVI.
12:09:13 <AnMaster> ah
12:09:14 <ehird> (Looked it up.)
12:09:36 <ehird> My personal opinion is that the rest of the industry should adopt Mini DisplayPort, but everyone's going for the non-mini version.
12:09:43 <ehird> Which is kinda silly, who doesn't like mini?
12:09:49 <ehird> ...but on the other hand not exactly a big deal.
12:09:56 <AnMaster> ehird, everyone without tiny hands? ;P
12:10:07 <ehird> (Except for the whole "more money? To you, Apple? To connect my display? Sure!" thing.)
12:10:22 <ehird> AnMaster: It's, like, the size of a USB port. A little smaller.
12:10:35 <ehird> My real enemy, though, is Ethernet.
12:11:09 <AnMaster> ehird, most projectors tend to have VGA as far as I have seen
12:11:20 <ehird> Ethernet ports are so annoying to attach (push...push...click!), the little tab thing at the top you have to push down is annoying, and the ports are so tall that they actually flush with thin notebook's edges (and are omitted from some to avoid making them deeper).
12:11:32 <AnMaster> but I guess DP includes analogue signal too
12:11:42 <ehird> Erm, no.
12:11:47 <ehird> DVI, DisplayPort, ... are all digital.
12:11:54 <ehird> AnMaster: modern projectors have dvi btw.
12:12:04 <AnMaster> ehird, DVI has both signals
12:12:09 <AnMaster> at least some DVI
12:12:11 <ehird> It doe?
12:12:12 <ehird> *does
12:12:26 <AnMaster> yes
12:12:36 <AnMaster> "DVI-I" stands for "DVI-Integrated" and supports both digital and analog transfers, so it works with both digital and analog Visual Display Units. "DVI-D" stands for "DVI-Digital" and supports digital transfers only.
12:12:39 <AnMaster> from wikipedia on DVI
12:12:46 <ehird> So you're right. But no, there are digital DVI projectors, I'm pretty sure.
12:13:20 <AnMaster> also how do you mean ethernet flush with the edges?
12:13:25 <ehird> Like:
12:13:35 <AnMaster> it is no taller than a vertical USB port
12:13:54 <AnMaster> and my thinkpad has it's three usb ports oriented vertically
12:14:04 <ehird> ------------------------
12:14:04 <ehird> [ ]
12:14:04 <ehird> [ ] [ ] | ]
12:14:04 <ehird> [ ]
12:14:04 <ehird> ------------------------
12:14:09 <AnMaster> of course, macs are thinner
12:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2988420535_5acf01b064.jpg
12:14:29 <AnMaster> ehird, what are the first two ones?
12:14:32 <ehird> (MacBook Pro)
12:14:34 <ehird> Also, USB or something.
12:14:44 <ehird> Anyway, the second port in that image is Ethernet.
12:14:49 <AnMaster> right
12:14:58 <AnMaster> ehird, macs are too thin for their own good :P
12:15:06 <AnMaster> ehird, no firewire!?
12:15:09 <AnMaster> and it's a mac?!
12:15:18 <ehird> FireWire isn't in the 13" model, iirc.
12:15:23 <AnMaster> huh
12:15:25 <ehird> Hmm, wait.
12:15:33 <AnMaster> maybe the third one?
12:15:37 <ehird> I think it was restored when it became the 13" MacBook Pro as opposed to just the 13" aluminium MacBook.
12:15:50 <ehird> The only things that use FireWire are cameras, anyway.
12:15:56 <ehird> It's a rather unadopted sort of port.
12:15:58 <AnMaster> ehird, harddrives
12:16:06 <ehird> Mostly USB.
12:16:22 <AnMaster> high end harddrives and (high end only?) video cameras
12:16:22 <ehird> Either that or made by Apple or Mac-oriented companies. :P
12:16:33 <ehird> Yeah, the lower-end cameras use USB, I'm pretty sure.
12:16:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well only video cameras
12:16:56 <AnMaster> s/ll/ll,/
12:17:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, the MacBook Pro is rather less impressively thin than http://k8rhymeswith.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/macbook-air.jpg.
12:17:08 <ehird> Mainly that last image.
12:17:21 <ehird> Admittedly it cheats a bit by curving outwards, but still.
12:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, where is the power connector though
12:17:29 <ehird> On what?
12:17:34 <AnMaster> macbook air
12:17:44 <AnMaster> I mean, you need at least that, no way to get away from it
12:18:03 <ehird> No "getting away" in the MacBook Air, it has ports: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Apple-MacBook-Air-Ports.jpg
12:18:12 <ehird> (You slide that out and it slides into the case, fitting with it.)
12:18:16 <ehird> I think the power port is on the back.
12:18:29 <ehird> (Those three ports are audio, USB and something-display, btw.)
12:18:36 <AnMaster> ehird, only audio out?
12:18:39 <AnMaster> no mic port?
12:18:45 <ehird> Not sure. Audio ports are both, though, aren't they?
12:18:50 <ehird> If it's either it's audio out only, though.
12:18:54 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/macbook-air-rev2-sm2-05.jpg
12:18:57 <ehird> Power connector is on the case.
12:19:05 <AnMaster> ehird, audio ports being both isn't standard at least
12:19:08 <AnMaster> maybe some mac only one
12:19:21 <ehird> I'm pretty sure the MacBook Air has a built-in microphone.
12:19:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it goes downwards?
12:19:26 <ehird> It's not exactly meant to be your only computer.
12:19:28 <ehird> And sure, I think.
12:19:44 <AnMaster> that wouldn't work if you can't place it so it sticks out past the table
12:19:49 <AnMaster> like in the middle of a table
12:20:04 <ehird> That photo may be misleading.
12:20:05 <AnMaster> personally my desk goes all the way to the wall beind it
12:20:35 <ehird> AnMaster: http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2008/01/01_macbook_air.jpg
12:20:43 <ehird> Admittedly that bending makes me cringe, but it's probably fine.
12:20:54 <ehird> After all, it is magnetic. :P
12:20:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that one isn't even fully pushed in!
12:21:11 <ehird> True dat.
12:21:35 <ehird> Anyway, indeed, the Air has flaws. Among those is just 2GB of RAM...
12:21:43 <AnMaster> ehird, and ok it is on the side, even worse since I have most space on the other side of the desk.
12:22:28 <ehird> Just bend the cord :P
12:22:30 <AnMaster> ehird, that would have sounded like a ridiculous statement just two or three years ago
12:22:36 <AnMaster> I mean, about the RAM
12:23:07 <ehird> Mm, 1GB of RAM was the baseline and 2GB a good upgrade in 2006.
12:23:12 <ehird> So I'm not sure about that.
12:23:23 <ehird> But anyway, it's the 64-bit.
12:23:36 <AnMaster> ehird, why are mac laptops so thin. Seriously, making it a bit thicker doesn't actually make it worse to use IME. And I used both thin macbooks and thick thinkpads
12:23:41 <ehird> Bam! You're using like 1.5x more RAM.
12:23:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Because why not?
12:23:51 <ehird> It's more aesthetically pleasing.
12:24:10 <ehird> And it's easier to fit in bags, etc.
12:24:15 <ehird> Also, ThinkPads are not really thick.
12:24:27 <ehird> Especially the T-series, which is only slightly thicker than current MacBook Pros.
12:24:39 <AnMaster> ehird, are you suggesting about half the data in most programs are pointers?
12:24:40 <ehird> And the X-series too, I guess.
12:24:50 <ehird> AnMaster: With today's crufty libraryspace, probably.
12:25:07 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the R series? It manages to fit the ethernet so it looks natural
12:25:19 <AnMaster> and the macbook I was comparing to was a "white plastic" one
12:25:22 <AnMaster> not sure when that was
12:25:35 <ehird> Well, the R stands for budget (the R is silent and also invisible) so it's a bit thicker. Still, quite thin.
12:25:48 <AnMaster> intel cpu though
12:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Depends. What was the keyboard like?
12:26:04 <ehird> Keys have space between them or a more regular PC-notebook-style thing?
12:26:08 <AnMaster> the R is silent and also invisible <-- silent yes, invisible? huh?
12:26:10 <ehird> Oh, Intel.
12:26:13 <ehird> MacBook.
12:26:24 <ehird> That's actually heavier and a bit thicker than the MacBook Pros to be cheaper.
12:26:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> Keys have space between them or a more regular PC-notebook-style thing? <-- space between
12:26:26 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a joke.
12:26:33 <ehird> T is for thin.
12:26:37 <ehird> R is for budget... which has no R.
12:26:43 <ehird> So the R is silent and also invisible.
12:26:48 <AnMaster> oh hah
12:27:03 <AnMaster> ehird, X for ...?
12:27:14 <ehird> Xtremely portable!
12:27:22 <AnMaster> Xtreme battery life too
12:27:32 <ehird> Well, that's standard for an ultraportable.
12:27:52 <ehird> The X-series isn't so portable nowadays, though, being about as thick as a 14" 4:3.
12:28:09 <ehird> (Although the screen's still small.)
12:28:47 <ehird> It occurs to me that one of the most important things for a ThinkPad to be good is for it to have that ridiculously colourful IBM logo on it.
12:28:53 <ehird> At least my subconscious seems to think so.
12:29:03 <ehird> It's an eyesore, which is good!
12:29:05 <ehird> :P
12:29:05 <AnMaster> ehird, also the macbook I'm comparing too is about as thick when lid is closed as the base when lid is open on my thinkpad
12:29:19 <ehird> *cmparing to
12:29:21 <ehird> *comparing
12:29:28 <ehird> AnMaster: The recent MacBook Pros are thinner.
12:29:29 <AnMaster> yeah
12:29:36 <AnMaster> ehird, mhm
12:29:37 <ehird> Also lighter.
12:29:47 <ehird> (The same size (13") model, that is.)
12:30:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and ethernet port fits quite well on my thinkpad :P
12:30:07 <ehird> Higher specs -> thinner and lighter!
12:30:19 <AnMaster> ehird, somehow that doesn't make sense :P
12:30:20 <ehird> Therefore, an i7 MacBook would actually add thickness to things around it.
12:30:28 <ehird> It's negatively thin!
12:30:34 <AnMaster> ehird, why would R stand for budget btw? Are they cheap?
12:30:50 <AnMaster> I don't remember the non-R ones being much cheaper
12:30:55 <AnMaster> err
12:30:58 <AnMaster> much more expensive*
12:31:02 <ehird> AnMaster: They're slightly cheaper (no ThinkPad is cheap) and therefore thicker and heavier.
12:31:14 <ehird> Also, less battery life.
12:31:17 <AnMaster> hm
12:31:29 <AnMaster> thinkpads are cheap compared to macs at least
12:31:40 <ehird> Yes, but not massively.
12:32:06 <ehird> And they're quite a bit more expensive than even high-end Dells and the like.
12:32:35 <AnMaster> well possibly, but at least they have usable monitors
12:32:57 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't glossy TFTs be more expensive?
12:32:58 <ehird> Non-Apple glossy is kind of irrelevant unless you're outside.
12:33:06 <ehird> AnMaster: No, the glossiness is natural, I think.
12:33:12 <ehird> The anti-matte is an extra process, I'm pretty sure.
12:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, so matte isn't natural?
12:33:26 <ehird> (Apple's glossy screens are a lot more glossy than normal ones)
12:33:29 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think so.
12:33:34 <ehird> I'm not sure, though.
12:34:03 <AnMaster> ehird, huh, so why wasn't glossy introduced first?
12:34:09 <ehird> Apple refers to the matte screen option as anti-golssy, so I guess that's an additional "process".
12:34:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Was it?
12:34:26 <ehird> I don't even know.
12:34:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, matte TFTs are older than glossy ones
12:34:34 <ehird> Are you sure?
12:34:52 <AnMaster> glossy ones were introduced a few years ago yes, while matte ones been around quite a while longer
12:35:04 <ehird> Define a few. I think you're wrong.
12:35:07 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm absolutely positive
12:35:12 <AnMaster> ehird, 2003? 2004?
12:35:20 <ehird> Are you sure?
12:35:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well I know old laptops were always matte
12:35:40 <AnMaster> and same for old desktop displays
12:35:42 <ehird> That doesn't prove anything.
12:35:54 <ehird> You'd need to go back further to see.
12:36:13 <AnMaster> ehird, why then would glossy ones have been unpopular for so long?
12:36:26 <AnMaster> since I remember some laptop in 1995 or so... matte...
12:36:30 <ehird> Because they look like shit unless you make them super-extra-glossy so that they SHIIIIIIIIIIIIINE?
12:36:40 <AnMaster> hm
12:36:48 <ehird> And because of inertia; perhaps matte was established earlier on when the engineers tested not covering it and found "wow this is crap".
12:36:52 <ehird> I may be totally wrong though.
12:37:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well I don't know for sure either. But as far as I know that thing you quoted apple on naming it sounds like marketing speech
12:38:20 <ehird> No, it's anti-marketing speak; its juxtaposition with the default glossy makes glossy sound like "glare".
12:38:34 <ehird> Anyway, I'm not basing it solely on that. But really I don't care.
12:41:49 <AnMaster> bbl food
12:50:13 <AnMaster> back
12:52:17 <ehird> I think I'm going to try and make that Linux magic (capability-based?) sandboxer now.
12:52:45 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
12:52:46 <ehird> I'm not too clued up on how unix users work though. Can you use any UID spontaneously, and an /etc/passwd entry is just for things like a username and shit?
12:52:56 <AnMaster> are you referring to the thing EgoBot uses?
12:53:14 <ehird> AnMaster: No, something I want to make. You can run untrusted programs without a care because it can only write files to your home directory, etc. if you let it to.
12:53:29 <ehird> The challenge is making this in a way that doesn't involve a dozen "let program access file X?" prompts every second.
12:53:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I believe /etc/passwd (or other schemes, like NIS and what not) are just for username, password, home directory, shell and such
12:53:42 <AnMaster> if you are root you could change to any uid
12:53:46 <ehird> Right. So the kernel just associates an arbitrary integer with processes?
12:53:47 <ehird> Right.
12:53:56 <ehird> I wonder if many programs check /etc/passwd instead of using $HOME.
12:54:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not completely sure, but I think so
12:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird, about $HOME, it would be set from /etc/passwd or whatever
12:54:31 <AnMaster> freebsd doesn't use /etc/passwd directly for example
12:54:43 <AnMaster> it uses some db file, but when it is updated /etc/passwd is too
12:54:51 <AnMaster> for compatibility reasons I think
12:54:51 <ehird> Right, but you can do HOME=foo prog
12:55:02 <AnMaster> ehird, you can do that yes
12:55:18 <ehird> I guess user-managing things do /etc/passwd instead, but they'd have to be special-cased to apply to the "actual" user in this system anyway
12:55:58 <ehird> So, this should mainly consist of creating a user and then doing an LD_PRELOAD.
12:56:04 <AnMaster> ehird, as for capabilities... no such support in linux in the meaning of capabilities that you mean
12:56:13 <ehird> (And then, later, adding this to the kernel's process spawner.)
12:56:23 <ehird> AnMaster: No shit. Thus why I'm coding it.
12:56:40 <AnMaster> and about LD_PRELOAD, there are ways to work around that unless you make sure it fails without LD_PRELOAD
12:56:53 <AnMaster> for example, static binaries, direct system calls
12:57:13 <AnMaster> you would end up doing the same thing as that thing egobot uses if you want to make it fool proof
12:57:28 <ehird> What I am doing is nothing like what EgoBot is doing.
12:57:44 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:57:50 <ehird> Anyway, either I'll simply not support using any static binaries or I'll just replace libc for non-root programs with my LD_PRELOAD shim.
12:57:56 -!- augur has joined.
12:58:02 <ehird> (which calls libc itself, of course)
12:58:09 <ehird> (but that would be Hidden Away)
12:58:22 <ehird> System calls can be overridden; at least anarchy golf does it.
12:58:42 <ehird> One challenge I'll face is having almost zero overhead... I refuse to make programs slow.
12:59:46 <ehird> I'm pretty sure I can do it, though.
13:00:03 <ehird> ...which provides more motivation to make a Linux distro and package manager :P
13:00:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> System calls can be overridden; at least anarchy golf does it. <-- ptrace I guess?
13:00:31 <ehird> Nah.
13:00:37 <AnMaster> how then
13:01:05 <ehird> Down with the bourgeoise distribution control system! Down with the global package conspiracy! Viva la user! Viva la unsecure code! Viva la capabilities! Viva la sandboxing! Viva la purely-functional package manager!
13:01:12 <ehird> AnMaster: dunno.
13:01:14 <ehird> I'll check.
13:02:04 <ehird> Incidentally, the kernel actually contains non-free code!
13:02:21 <AnMaster> ehird, depends.
13:02:27 <ehird> No depends about it: http://jebba.blagblagblag.org/?p=244
13:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes depends on if you include the firmware or not
13:03:10 <ehird> The code is still there whether you compile with it or not.
13:03:15 <ehird> But look at the list.
13:03:19 <ehird> There's more than just that.
13:04:42 <AnMaster> ehird, as it happens I use none of those on my desktop (on the other hand, it has nvidia driver so meh), for my laptop I need the tg3 and iwlagn drivers, iwlagn at least loads some firmware from /lib/fimware
13:06:56 <ehird> long int syscall(long int number, ...) {
13:06:56 <ehird> // Don't call syscall
13:06:56 <ehird> watch_log("syscall\n");
13:06:56 <ehird> return 0;
13:06:56 <ehird> }
13:06:59 <ehird> Well that's unhelpful
13:07:26 <AnMaster> ehird, you can easily do the syscall manually in any case.
13:07:40 <ehird> No, you can't. Anagolf allows C and asm.
13:07:44 <ehird> It DOES block syscalls.
13:07:50 <ehird> I just don't know how yet.
13:08:07 <AnMaster> well yes. Anyway in C you can do inline asm, and in asm, well...
13:08:20 <AnMaster> ehird, using ptrace *would* work I think
13:09:41 <AnMaster> ehird, the issue is that lots of hardware these days cut down on costs by having the driver load the firmware on each boot
13:09:47 <AnMaster> reduces needed flash on chipset
13:09:57 <AnMaster> thus cheaper
13:10:44 <AnMaster> EEPROM is more expensive than DRAM. And also it is easier to fix a messup, just reboot, no need to worry about flashing going wrong
13:11:43 <AnMaster> so you just end up with firmware in rom were you can't avoid it: BIOS, disk controller and such.
13:11:51 <AnMaster> (or eeprom)
13:12:27 <ehird> ptrace is slow, no?
13:12:35 <ehird> every process, remember
13:12:38 <AnMaster> ehird, no idea.
13:13:00 <AnMaster> ehird, also you can't ptrace at least a few things: init and the ptrace daemon itself
13:13:16 <AnMaster> I guess you could write your own init
13:13:21 <AnMaster> which did the ptrace stuff too
13:13:25 <ehird> no shit
13:13:25 <AnMaster> if you really really wanted to
13:13:33 <AnMaster> but it seems like NIH
13:21:13 <ehird> So, how does ptrace actually work?
13:21:43 <AnMaster> ehird, is it what anagolf uses?
13:21:57 <AnMaster> oh and: man ptrace
13:22:15 <AnMaster> I never used it directly, but iirc, stuff like strace, gdb and what not uses it too
13:22:45 <ehird> No idea how anagolf does it.
13:22:53 <ehird> No manual entry for ptrace
13:22:55 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't anagolf open source?
13:22:56 <ehird> Maybe I need build-essentials :P
13:22:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes.
13:23:03 <ehird> I can't see how it does it.
13:23:04 <AnMaster> ehird, install the relevant package, not sure what package that is
13:23:12 <ehird> build-essential
13:23:41 <AnMaster> you maybe want to use the ptrace flag PTRACE_SYSEMU
13:23:55 <ehird> No manual entry.
13:23:59 <fizzie> manpages-dev
13:24:09 <ehird> yay.
13:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, man page mentions that UML uses PTRACE_SYSEMU
13:24:28 <ehird> See, the thing is, "trace".
13:24:31 <ehird> I'd rather override than trace.
13:24:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you can do that
13:24:39 <ehird> Anyway, long-term solution is to patch the actual syscalls.
13:24:41 <AnMaster> see what I mentioned
13:24:46 <ehird> Just like with libc for static binaries.
13:24:54 <ehird> That also removes overhead.
13:25:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> Just like with libc for static binaries. <-- ?
13:25:18 <ehird> I can make static binaries bow to my LD_PRELOAD prowess if I instead replace libc with the LD_PRELOAD'd lib.
13:25:22 <ehird> And hack it up sufficiently.
13:25:36 <ehird> (Then store the actual libc in a closely-guarded area with wolves.)
13:26:04 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, static binaries include the relevant parts from libc in the binary
13:26:07 <AnMaster> so wouldn't work
13:26:15 <AnMaster> they use /usr/lib/libc.a
13:26:15 <ehird> Hmm, duh.
13:26:22 <ehird> Silly me.
13:26:23 <ehird> BUT!
13:26:30 <ehird> libc can only do tricksy stuff via syscalls.
13:26:57 <ehird> So I can make my clever syscalls actually *look at the libc call that was done* (if any), and pass that on to whatever.
13:27:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, it uses a vdso to do it, kernel provides the vdso. This is so the best syscall method is always used. At least it is like that on x86. Since x86_64 only uses one method I guess it wouldn't require a vdso
13:28:00 <ehird> Point is, I can theoretically do all this for everything.
13:28:06 <ehird> But really, what the fuck is a static binary these days?
13:28:14 <AnMaster> (best here means something like "if possible use SYSCALL/SYSRET or SYSENTER/SYSEXIT, fall back on interrupt to do it)
13:28:25 <fizzie> My Scheme compiler does static binaries.
13:28:31 <fizzie> And I'm sure it's a very widespread system!
13:28:38 <ehird> Your Scheme compiler eats shit!
13:28:40 <ehird> :P
13:28:51 <AnMaster> ehird, busybox is static here. ICC produces static binaries if you use -fast to make it optimise as much as possible
13:28:59 <AnMaster> and lots more
13:29:06 <ehird> Busybox isn't on a desktop distro.
13:29:12 <ehird> So don't use -fast.
13:29:18 <ehird> I mean, I just don't see static binaries as really being widespread.
13:29:21 <ehird> At all.
13:29:25 <AnMaster> because dynamic linking does have some overhead, you have to use the GOT
13:29:31 <AnMaster> rather than just a direct call/jump
13:29:55 <AnMaster> I guess you could force binding on load if that is what you want
13:30:08 <ehird> Huh, mozplugger can embed arbitrary X stuff as a Mozilla plugin?
13:30:09 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and ld.so is static iirc.
13:30:10 <ehird> Uber-sweet!
13:30:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Obviously I'd have to replace low-level things like that
13:30:40 <ehird> Obviously this approach won't be problem-free; I am after all totally sandboxing stuff.
13:31:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I bet X will be slow with it
13:31:11 <ehird> X runs as root, dude. It's exempt.
13:31:11 <AnMaster> for the 3D bits I mean
13:31:27 <ehird> That would be overhead. I'm avoiding that, remember?
13:31:34 <AnMaster> ehird, so you will only sandbox user processes? Not all as you said above
13:31:41 <AnMaster> oh and X is moving away from needing root
13:31:46 <AnMaster> what with the new GEM stuff in the kernel
13:31:53 <ehird> Can I kill you so you realise that hyperbole is not actually truth?
13:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't know you weren't serious
13:32:39 <ehird> :P
13:32:42 <AnMaster> anyway, the GEM stuff is bleeding edge. I think arch might have it. Possibly
13:32:54 <AnMaster> or maybe not released yet
13:33:07 <ehird> The emphasis was that your phat shell pipeline that executes a command per each million line will be run under all of this stuff, every single process.
13:33:13 <AnMaster> phat?
13:33:18 <ehird> And speed is *awesome*.
13:33:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Fat, ghetto-style.
13:33:24 <AnMaster> ah
13:33:41 <ehird> An issue with Evince-in-mozplugger is that I don't think menus are very... plugginy.
13:33:47 <ehird> I mean, menus belong at the top of the screen :-P
13:34:06 <AnMaster> ehird, um, menus at top of screen is very.... appleish
13:34:12 <ehird> Er, window.
13:34:13 <ehird> Not screen.
13:34:17 <AnMaster> ah
13:34:44 <AnMaster> ehird, so where does mozplugger place them?
13:34:47 <ehird> But I've seen a screenshot, and apart from that it looks great.
13:34:53 <ehird> Just like any Firefox plugin.
13:34:59 <ehird> AnMaster: In the page contents.
13:35:09 <AnMaster> mhm
13:35:15 <ehird> Here, I'll reupload a screenshot from the Ubuntu forums (needs registration you see).
13:35:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> Here, I'll reupload a screenshot from the Ubuntu forums (needs registration you see). <-- even to view?
13:35:33 <ehird> Yes.
13:35:37 <ehird> The Ubuntu forums are stupid.
13:35:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I have been able to read threads on the ubuntu forums with no registration
13:35:55 <ehird> Not files.
13:35:55 <AnMaster> maybe only for pics?
13:35:57 <ehird> They also run on vBulletin - proprietary, for-money forum software - when better free alternatives exist.
13:35:58 <AnMaster> Ì see
13:36:00 <AnMaster> I*
13:36:09 <ehird> Basically, what I'm saying is the Ubuntu forums are fucking retarded.
13:36:12 <AnMaster> ehird, phpBB? ;P
13:36:14 <ehird> (They're not run by Canonical)
13:36:24 <ehird> (But they're officially endorsed)
13:36:27 <AnMaster> mhm
13:36:48 <ehird> Upload, upload, upload.
13:37:02 <ehird> http://imgur.com/ufXf8.jpg (jpg not my fault)
13:37:09 <ehird> Evince in Firefox (circa 2005 :P).
13:37:15 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway ptrace would work. But for making it fast you might need to do some in kernel module
13:37:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:37:29 <ehird> The only things that look out of place for a document plugin are the menu and the status bar.
13:37:48 <AnMaster> mhm
13:38:19 <ehird> Unfortunately the menu also offers Vital Functions(TM), so it'll have to stay. Modern Evince has no status bar.
13:38:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what has this got to do with sandboxing?
13:38:53 <ehird> Oh jesus christ, /etc/mozpluggerrc is an m4 file.
13:38:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Nothing.
13:39:03 <AnMaster> oh ok
13:39:05 <ehird> I'm setting this up for me.
13:39:21 <AnMaster> ah
13:39:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you know kpdf integrates nicely in konqueror?
13:39:43 <AnMaster> ;P
13:40:03 <ehird> Hey, it works.
13:40:08 <ehird> sudo apt-get install mozplugger and it works automatically.
13:40:10 <ehird> No configuration.
13:40:14 <AnMaster> so does kwrite for when you open a C file or such. So you get nice syntax highlighting
13:40:19 <ehird> It's already set up with Evince in the default configuration file (among others like kpdf).
13:40:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Only problem: KDE sucks shit.
13:40:30 <AnMaster> ehird, KDE 4 yes
13:40:33 <ehird> No.
13:40:34 <ehird> All KDE.
13:40:36 <ehird> KDE 4 slightly less.
13:40:37 <AnMaster> and KDE 3 is getting a bit dated
13:40:44 <ehird> dcop, yes, wonderful. kparts, nice, but... X has that already, you know.
13:40:53 <ehird> (And the X embedding is how mozplugger works.)
13:41:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you like dcop?!
13:41:20 <AnMaster> then I guess you just love dbus
13:41:29 <ehird> dcop allowed for an awesome integrated system: you had a command-line for the whole environment.
13:41:31 <ehird> Very lisp machine.
13:41:39 <ehird> dbus seems a bit too enterprisey to be useful for that.
13:41:45 <AnMaster> hm maybe
13:42:11 <ehird> But really, what's the point of kparts? X has that.
13:42:23 <AnMaster> anyway, kate is a lot nicer than gedit. I could live with the gnome terminal if I could disable the horrible blinking cursor
13:42:28 <AnMaster> but I can't find any setting for that
13:42:44 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't get the extra menu? ;P
13:43:06 <ehird> Oh don't be silly.
13:43:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you were complaining about it?
13:43:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but kparts requires application changes, so why not just add a --no-menubar option and call that in the X embedder?
13:43:45 <ehird> It's, like, 50,000x less work or so?
13:44:10 <AnMaster> ehird, the important options show up in the menu of the host app with kparts though
13:44:26 <ehird> That's just confusing if the document is below the tab fold.
13:44:32 <ehird> I certainly wouldn't look for a menu in the global app menu.
13:44:57 <AnMaster> ehird, how does it work on OS X then for the important menu options?
13:45:22 <ehird> Plugins have no menus. Design your UI properly for the context of being in a browser tab, you lazy bum.
13:45:38 <AnMaster> ehird, what happens with acrobat reader on windows? it has a plugin too
13:45:42 <ehird> (OS X errs on the side of more work, less shiny-automatic-technology-ooh and more final polish.)
13:45:50 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't even want to know, but it's probably horrific.
13:46:00 <AnMaster> I don't remember
13:47:08 <ehird> Also, gedit is fine enough as a Notepad replacement (view files, make tiny edits.)
13:47:26 <ehird> For blinking cursor, eh; there's probably a global Gnome setting. Possibly in GConf somewhere.
13:47:41 <ehird> For the terminal, if you care enough to replace the terminal, why not use urxvt or something else?
13:48:12 <AnMaster> ehird, because I like konsole? :P
13:48:22 <AnMaster> so that is what I use
13:48:24 <ehird> But it's just Yet Another Mediocre Desktop Environment Terminal.
13:48:36 <AnMaster> ehird, a very resourceful one
13:48:40 <ehird> What?
13:48:52 <AnMaster> lots of features in konsole
13:48:59 <ehird> Also, mozplugger is cool:
13:49:00 <ehird> audio/x-sidtune:sid,psid:Commodore 64 Audio
13:49:00 <ehird> audio/sidtune:sid,psid:Commodore 64 Audio
13:49:00 <ehird> audio/psid:psid,sid:Commodore 64 Audio
13:49:00 <ehird> audio/x-psid:psid,sid:Commodore 64 Audio
13:49:00 <ehird> controls noisy: sidplay -16 -f44100 -a "$file"
13:49:09 <ehird> They Thought Of Everything(TM)!
13:50:32 <ehird> Unfortunately evince and mozplugger do not interact very well --modplugger homepage
13:50:58 <ehird> I wonder why so many cursors blink.
13:51:03 <ehird> It's pretty pointless.
13:51:22 <AnMaster> wow, the sysvinit tarball contains a file describing how to upgrade from older init versions that were used before linux 2.0 XD
13:51:44 <AnMaster> admittedly in a directory called obsolete. The reason I looked was that the file was called README.RIGHT.NOW
13:51:47 <ehird> yuck, sysvinit
13:51:57 <AnMaster> ehird, it is what provides /sbin/init
13:52:00 <ehird> I know.
13:52:04 <ehird> Hoorah for bsdinit.
13:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, on freebsd at least /sbin/init is a static binary
13:52:19 <ehird> Well, that still uses /sbin/init.
13:52:22 <ehird> But still.
13:52:37 <ehird> Argh, Compiz screen-dimming alt-tab is so annoying when you just hit it quickly.
13:52:40 <ehird> It's like a flickery screen.
13:52:48 <AnMaster> <spam>
13:52:49 <AnMaster> Install *just* the init binary as /sbin/init.new. Now reboot the system,
13:52:49 <AnMaster> and stop your bootloader so you can give arguments on the command line.
13:52:49 <AnMaster> With LILO you can usually achieve this by keeping the SHIFT key
13:52:49 <AnMaster> pressed during boot up. Enter the name of the kernel image (for LILO,
13:52:49 <AnMaster> TAB shows a list) followed by the argument "init=/sbin/init.new".
13:52:52 <AnMaster> The name "init.new" is special, do not use something like "init.test".
13:52:54 <AnMaster> </spam>
13:52:57 <AnMaster> urgh!
13:53:01 <ehird> Anyway, BSD init sucks but sysv init sucks more.
13:53:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what init would you prefer? If you say launchd I will kill you
13:53:19 <ehird> Probably my distro would have something Fitter, Happier and More Productive.
13:53:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Something simple.
13:54:05 <ehird> The whole concept of init is basically a hack anyway, but while we're staying with something that's still a unix...
13:54:13 <AnMaster> ehird, oh that file also says that for slackware you should use slackware 3.0 or newer
13:54:18 <ehird> BSD init is a bit too centralised and its configuration file is a bit too opaque for my tastes.
13:54:23 <ehird> But sysv is just a clusterfuck.
13:54:30 <AnMaster> oh and debian 1.3 or newer
13:54:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Remember that slackware isn't as old as it seems from its versions :P
13:54:43 <AnMaster> I wonder if it is possible to get hold of a copy of that old debian release
13:54:45 <ehird> But yeah, so it's an old file.
13:54:46 <ehird> Yes.
13:54:53 <ehird> All Debian releases are still available.
13:54:57 <ehird> I believe the repositories are still up too.
13:55:00 <AnMaster> ehird, all packages for them?
13:55:12 <ehird> Sure.
13:55:25 <AnMaster> yesterday I was looking for an old woody package because of bitrot made it impossible to compile it with modern gcc
13:55:53 <ehird> http://archive.debian.org/debian/dists/Debian-0.93R6/
13:55:58 <ehird> 1995
13:56:05 <ehird> And files with that last modification date, too.
13:56:15 <ehird> I never trust modification dates. "touch" is so quick to type.
13:56:22 <AnMaster> and I don't want to even try to patch gcc 2.95 (including patch for cross compiling to h8300) to compile under gcc 4.3
13:56:28 <AnMaster> same for binutils
13:56:31 <AnMaster> and newlib
13:56:35 <ehird> A minimal installation of Debian GNU/Linux requires slightly over ten
13:56:36 <ehird> megabytes of disk space. This minimal system includes everything needed
13:56:36 <ehird> to install and run a Debian GNU/Linux system, but it will be difficult
13:56:36 <ehird> to do anything beyond that without installing additional software
13:56:36 <ehird> packages. A typical installation without the X Window System requires
13:56:36 <ehird> approximately forty megabytes of disk space, and a typical installation
13:56:38 <ehird> with the X Window System requires approximately sixty megabytes of disk
13:56:40 <ehird> space. The actual disk space requirements will depend greatly on which
13:56:42 <ehird> optional software packages you install, of course.
13:56:47 <AnMaster> so yeah I wanted a woody deb to unpack somewhere outside the normal tree
13:56:58 <ehird> Debian GNU/Linux requires at least four megabytes of RAM during
13:56:58 <ehird> installation and normal system use, and eight megabytes of RAM when
13:56:58 <ehird> running the X Window System.
13:57:05 <ehird> High-end, man.
13:57:09 <AnMaster> :D
13:57:32 <fizzie> Speaking of sysvinit, Debian has recently added this additional mess too: http://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts/DependencyBasedBoot
13:57:42 <ehird> Still, it isn't *that* old; ThinkPads were an established brand by then, after all.
13:57:53 <ehird> fizzie: vomitous
13:58:18 <ehird> I hate the .avail/.d symlink directory structure crap that's so common
13:58:20 <ehird> It's a pain to manipulate
13:58:35 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Speaking of sysvinit, Debian has recently added this additional mess too: http://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts/DependencyBasedBoot <-- huh, doesn't everyone just use dep based boot scripts already?
13:58:45 <ehird> Also: Has anyone ever actually used Jigdo?
13:58:54 <AnMaster> ehird, never heard of it, what is it?
13:59:06 <ehird> It's a method that Debian use to distribute .isos and nobody else uses ever.
13:59:09 <ehird> Also nobody downloads it that way.
13:59:09 <ehird> Ever.
13:59:17 <ehird> It must predate bittorrent because it's very wtf.
13:59:28 <AnMaster> heh
13:59:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, because not everything has dependency information in initscripts?
13:59:33 <Ilari> AnMaster: System to take template file and packages and build bit-exact ISO from those.
13:59:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, gentoo used it for *years*
14:00:08 <ehird> Ilari: yes, AnMaster can do that
14:00:11 <Ilari> AnMaster: Yes, it uses the same packages as downloaded by apt-get. Saves a lot of disk space from servers.
14:00:12 <ehird> *instantrimshot.com*
14:00:22 <AnMaster> Ilari, hm
14:00:33 <ehird> Not really, since all the servers carry the .isos too.
14:00:47 <ehird> It frees up NEGATIVE space! Woohoo! :P
14:00:53 <AnMaster> ehird, use venti, thus the same files only need to be stored once
14:01:01 <AnMaster> assuming that you get abount +/- 0
14:01:02 <ehird> Uh, .iso vs a bunch of packages.
14:01:10 <ehird> No shared files.
14:01:38 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't the iso have the package files stored as such on it to be able to install them. Well the base system packages only obviously
14:01:50 <AnMaster> plus of course a few binaries to run the installer
14:01:58 <AnMaster> like, installer itself and support files
14:02:00 <ehird> Sure, but I doubt there are too many shared *blocks*.
14:02:08 <AnMaster> hm maybe
14:02:08 <ehird> Mostly it'll be AAAABBBB vs AAAB.
14:02:09 <fizzie> On my system, "mzscheme" and "scratchbox-core" both are missing the LSB tags.
14:02:09 <ehird> er
14:02:14 <ehird> Mostly it'll be AAAABBBB vs AAABBBBC.
14:02:15 <ehird> etc
14:02:27 <ehird> Even a one byte misalignment will remove all sharing.
14:02:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, why does mzscheme need a init script...
14:02:40 <AnMaster> an*
14:02:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: It has that HTTP server it can optionally start at boot-up.
14:03:01 <AnMaster> uhuh
14:03:07 <ehird> Yeah.
14:03:13 <fizzie> I don't think anyone uses it, but it exists.
14:03:15 <ehird> It's PLT Scheme, not MzScheme that has that, though.
14:03:17 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, they do
14:03:21 <ehird> PLT Scheme is an environment
14:03:23 <Ilari> The template would only need support for literal insert and range copy from... Then one-byte misalignments wouldn't matter too much.
14:03:26 <ehird> MzScheme is the implementation
14:03:35 <ehird> It's quite a neat server
14:03:45 <ehird> Has continuation-based web programming and all that nice stuff.
14:04:10 <AnMaster> from gentoo init script for iptables:
14:04:12 <AnMaster> depend() {
14:04:12 <AnMaster> before net
14:04:12 <AnMaster> use logger
14:04:12 <AnMaster> }
14:04:14 <ehird> Ilari: True, but he advocated changing the storage mechanism to venti, which wouldn't help.
14:04:18 <ehird> (and making no other changes)
14:04:18 <AnMaster> those are optional ones
14:04:32 <AnMaster> for required ones it would use "need" instead of "use"
14:04:50 <fizzie> Oh, so Gentoo doesn't use the LSB-standard dependency tags then, but does a custom thing?
14:05:01 <AnMaster> there is also "provide" for stuff like postfix/qmail/sendmail/ssmtp. They all "provide mta"
14:05:03 <ehird> Fuuuck the LSB.
14:05:14 <ehird> And the FHS. For some reason standards always err to the worse.
14:05:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, yep
14:05:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, lsb is not something ever heard of on gentoo. There was even a 1 april joke about gentoo switching to LSB and thus also RPM.
14:06:01 <ehird> RPM *vomit
14:06:01 <ehird> *
14:06:04 <ehird> s/\n\*/*/
14:06:33 <Ilari> Or just have full template image, compress it with something that can compress repetitions real well (bzip2 for instance) and have series of ranged XORs from.
14:07:02 <ehird> This hostname could probably do with being changed from "ehird-desktop".
14:07:14 <ehird> To... bip. Or blip.
14:08:43 <ehird> Blop. Yes, that's it. Blop.
14:09:00 <ehird> Now how do I change my hostname all point-'n-clicky with Ubuntu...
14:09:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw, gentoo doesn't use the classical runlevels either
14:09:45 <ehird> You can boot Linux easily without runlevels?
14:09:51 <ehird> Mwahaha! Another thing to scrap!
14:09:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you need 0 and 6 at least
14:10:03 <AnMaster> and 1 too I guess
14:10:07 <AnMaster> plus an extra one
14:10:17 <AnMaster> so gentoo uses 0,1,3,6
14:10:24 <AnMaster> where 3 is the normal one
14:10:26 <ehird> Only if you use stock init though, right?
14:10:38 <AnMaster> ehird, unsure. I think 0 and 6 at least may have special meanings
14:10:39 <ehird> Although I'm not sure I really want to go interacting with the kernel at such an intimate level.
14:10:45 <ehird> I'm just not ready for that kind of relationship.
14:11:01 <AnMaster> anyway. gentoo uses named runlevels
14:11:06 <AnMaster> like "default" and "boot"
14:11:13 <ehird> (What's 6? Isn't that higher than the usual desktoppy runlevel?)
14:11:15 <AnMaster> you can create extra ones as you like
14:11:18 <AnMaster> ehird, 6 is reboot
14:11:21 <AnMaster> 0 is halt
14:11:26 <AnMaster> 1 is single user.
14:11:32 <AnMaster> apart from that, definitions vary
14:11:36 <ehird> I wonder if there's anything that actually parses PATH itself.
14:11:40 <Ilari> Little known, but there are runlevels 7, 8 and 9 too. Usually not used for anything.
14:11:45 <AnMaster> ehird, what about libc?
14:11:47 <ehird> I could just PATH=magic and then override the lookup thing.
14:11:51 <ehird> AnMaster: libc is mine, all mine!
14:11:54 <AnMaster> Ilari, really?
14:11:55 <AnMaster> huh
14:12:01 <ehird> (For the separate-package-directory thing.)
14:12:03 <fizzie> I haven't seen the different numeric runlevels used much anywhere either; Debian has pretty much identical 2-5, I think; Slackware differentiated between "X" and "not X".
14:12:42 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and I think some apps do too. iirc I was working on doing that in befunge, for use with the system()
14:13:00 <Ilari> AnMaster: And then the sysvinit has special levels a, b and c. But those aren't runlevels.
14:13:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Durnit.
14:13:17 <AnMaster> (that is, =)
14:13:32 <AnMaster> Ilari, hm
14:13:37 <ehird> Maybe I'll point PATH=/magic, where /magic is an FS with every file possible, and they're all executable, and they all print out "Stop parsing PATH, you nincompoop." and then exit.
14:13:39 <ehird> :-P
14:13:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with PATH
14:14:17 <Ilari> AnMaster: They instead execute some commands but don't change the runlevel (unlike 'init 7', which really would switch runlevel).
14:14:25 <ehird> Separate package directories = oh, your PATH is 3MiB big.
14:14:25 <AnMaster> huh it seems my ubuntu laptop uses runlevel 2 for normal usage
14:14:37 <AnMaster> so I guess it dropped most of the normal runlevel-y stuff too
14:14:52 <ehird> Or, "oh, you have a directory cluttering up your FS just to cater to stubborn programs with symlinks or whatever".
14:14:57 <AnMaster> ehird, is that what happens on that distro which I forgot the name of atm
14:15:16 <AnMaster> you tried it iirc
14:15:16 <ehird> Gobo uses shim directories, yes.
14:15:22 <AnMaster> ah yes gobo
14:15:30 <ehird> GoboLinux also has GNOME 2.0 in its repositories, iirc.
14:15:31 <Ilari> AFAIK, $PATH can't be 3MB... :->
14:15:33 <ehird> Literally.
14:15:35 <ehird> GNOME 2.0, full stop.
14:15:37 <AnMaster> ehird, "shim"? isn't that something related to scanner in windows?
14:15:41 <ehird> It still used Sawfish.
14:15:47 <ehird> It's from around 2000.
14:15:48 <AnMaster> some dll or such
14:15:57 <AnMaster> Ilari, why not?
14:16:00 <ehird> They still have it in their repositories as the latest gnome!
14:16:51 <AnMaster> $ file /bin/* | grep static
14:16:51 <AnMaster> /bin/ld_static: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped
14:16:53 <AnMaster> from ubuntu
14:16:55 <AnMaster> no idea why
14:16:58 <Ilari> AnMaster: Kernel limits for amount of information that can be passed through exec (since that must be allocated as kernel memory).
14:17:03 <AnMaster> yes that is ld as in ld from binutils
14:17:05 <AnMaster> not as in ld.so
14:17:47 <AnMaster> provided by binutils-static
14:18:07 <AnMaster> oh used for building kernel modules during boot on the fly if needed for mounting /usr it seems
14:18:12 <AnMaster> well not compiling, just linking
14:18:16 <AnMaster> how strange
14:18:23 <ehird> That sure does sound slow.
14:18:39 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ file /usr/bin/* | grep static
14:18:40 <ehird> /usr/bin/mbchk: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped
14:18:40 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$
14:18:41 <ehird> Queer.
14:18:50 <ehird> mbchk - check the format of a Multiboot kernel
14:18:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess it is meant for when you boot with a new kernel
14:18:54 <ehird> From Grub.
14:19:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just going to say it was grub related iirc
14:19:16 <AnMaster> there is /sbin/ldconfig.real
14:19:16 <AnMaster> heh
14:19:42 <ehird> /usr/sbin/grub is obviously static.
14:19:48 <ehird> ldconfig.real too, yeah.
14:19:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes, ldconfig must be static
14:19:50 <ehird> That's all.
14:20:02 <ehird> /lib/klibc-twzlwPED6FKuYrtGTmP6bjJ3CHQ.so: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped
14:20:04 <ehird> that's an impressive filename.
14:20:19 <ehird> And, well... that's it.
14:20:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I have some more in /usr/sbin, called unhide-linux26, unhide-posix, unhide-tcp
14:20:36 <ehird> So there's only one file per directory on Ubuntu that's static, heh.
14:20:39 <ehird> And sometimes even 0.
14:20:46 <ehird> In conclusion: Static binaries? Nosiree, not here.
14:20:56 <AnMaster> ehird, those unhide ones are related to some rootkit checker iirc
14:21:04 <AnMaster> also I have /usr/bin/makedumpfile
14:21:08 <AnMaster> all this on ubuntu
14:21:24 * AnMaster wonders what makedumpfile is
14:21:45 <ehird> I have a rather closer to stock Ubuntu, so mine is likely more typical.
14:21:46 <AnMaster> oh related to kexec-to-dump-stuff-on-oops it seems
14:21:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I have installed a few more packages yes
14:21:58 <Ilari> The reason its named that way is that klibc has absolutely no forwards or backwards binary compatiblity.
14:22:21 <AnMaster> Ilari, how comes?
14:22:22 <ehird> Ilari: Is it so incompatible that it requires something close to a UUID or keyboard-forehead in its name?
14:23:01 <AnMaster> /usr/lib/libnfsidmap_static.so.0.0.0: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, stripped
14:23:04 <AnMaster> that seems ironic
14:23:14 <Ilari> Heh, ntfs-3g is statically linked here...
14:23:20 <ehird> No, Alanis Morisette.
14:23:24 <ehird> That is not ironic.
14:23:31 <AnMaster> ehird, eh?
14:23:51 <AnMaster> anyway, static and dynamic. Of course it probably means static something else
14:23:52 <AnMaster> but still
14:23:54 <ehird> Yet Another Sorta-Internet Pop Culture Reference.
14:24:07 <Ilari> ehird: The dynamic linking mechanism it uses is really primitive. IIRC, it works by abusing PT_INTERP.
14:25:01 <Ilari> ehird: IIRC, programs linked against klibc claim that the klibc is dynamic linker to use. Then the kernel will link klibc into application.
14:25:12 <AnMaster> PT_INTERP... isn't that the thing that says "I want /lib64/ld.so" or "I want /lib/ld-linux.so" (or whatever the 32-bit ld.so is called)
14:25:16 <ehird> Ilari: Ouch.
14:25:26 <ehird> I'm not surprised, though. Linux is kludge upon kludge.
14:25:44 <AnMaster> ehird, PT_INTERP is POSIX though
14:25:51 <Ilari> ehird: AFAIK, that linking capaiblity is required for ELF support.
14:26:00 <AnMaster> or well no
14:26:05 <AnMaster> it's ELF though
14:26:06 <AnMaster> not POSIX
14:26:15 <ehird> POSIX is kludge upon kludge, except now you have to be very specific about exactly *what* kludges you use.
14:26:21 <ehird> Hooray for standardisation!
14:26:22 <AnMaster> ehird, :D
14:26:36 <AnMaster> ehird, windows is way way worseEx.
14:27:00 <ehird> Windows has more of a history to justify its kludginess.
14:27:32 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? everyone wants backward compatiblity. Not only the windows ppl
14:27:44 <AnMaster> and is OS X any better? Not IME
14:29:33 <Ilari> Debian apt-get funkyness: Package that declares both conflicts and provodes for "essential" package will trigger nasty warning on install... :-/
14:30:05 <ehird> AnMaster: OS X's base is obviously quite kludgy, although the BSDs are generally more pure.
14:30:15 <AnMaster> Ilari, why on earth?
14:30:15 <ehird> But as soon as you step into Objective-C land it's very clean.
14:30:29 <Ilari> The package I noted that in: xz-utils. It provodes and conflicts with lzma, which is considered essential.
14:30:39 <ehird> Provode!
14:30:42 <fizzie> "file /bin/* /sbin/* /usr/bin/* /usr/sbin/* | grep static" outputs just /sbin/ldconfig, nothing else.
14:30:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, what distro?
14:30:59 <fizzie> Debian, of course.
14:31:23 <fizzie> Well, I guess it's not "of course" because I have that laptop too.
14:31:25 <ehird> They should make that their motto.
14:31:28 <ehird> "Debian, of course".
14:31:37 <ehird> Although the NetBSD guys might complain.
14:31:37 <AnMaster> /sbin/lvm: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
14:31:37 <AnMaster> /sbin/lvm.static: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
14:31:38 <ehird> Solution:
14:31:39 <AnMaster> I wonder...
14:31:44 <AnMaster> what on earth happened there
14:31:45 <ehird> Of course it runs Debian/kNetBSD, of course.
14:32:32 <AnMaster> ehird, of course of course, a distro is a distro
14:32:49 <ehird> A distro is a distro, of course of course, and you can't ...something a distro, of course of course.
14:32:51 <AnMaster> (if you don't understand that, ask ais)
14:33:10 <AnMaster> /sbin/iptables-static: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
14:33:12 <AnMaster> what the hell
14:33:22 <ehird> Does what it says on the tin.
14:33:37 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it doesn't. Read again
14:33:47 <Ilari> Heh.
14:33:49 <ehird> Oh, hah.
14:34:19 <AnMaster> ehird, another thing that may be static:
14:34:20 <AnMaster> /usr/sbin/prelink: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
14:34:39 <AnMaster> probably not standard on ubuntu
14:35:17 <Ilari> Then I have one statically linked utility that has sole purpose of unlinking ld.so.cache...
14:35:51 <AnMaster> Ilari, hm?
14:36:05 <AnMaster> ldconfig you mean?
14:36:41 <Ilari> AnMaster: No, 'saveme'. Absolutely no arguments to control it.
14:36:53 <AnMaster> Ilari, what distro
14:36:55 <AnMaster> and why
14:37:13 <AnMaster> hey they redesigned (slightly) kernel.org
14:37:25 <AnMaster> s/y/y,/
14:37:32 <Ilari> Debian
14:37:46 <AnMaster> Ilari, ok, why is saveme useful?
14:38:06 <Ilari> AnMaster: If ld.so.cache happens to get busted for some reason...
14:38:22 <Ilari> Oops, its not ld.so.cache, its ld.so.preload
14:38:31 <Ilari> :-/
14:38:40 <AnMaster> I never even seen ld.so.preload
14:39:16 <AnMaster> and from man ld.so... ld.so.preload seems like a extremely idiotic idea
14:43:32 <ehird> Annoying that XChat and XChat-Gnome both suck.
14:43:57 <AnMaster> ehird, xchat-gnome yes. But xchat is quite good IMO. Best one after ERC.
14:44:19 <bsmntbombdood> what the hell
14:44:21 <ehird> Actually, XChat-Gnome is better than XChat because it has all the flaws apart from overcomplexity, and is lighter.
14:44:27 <ehird> But it still sucks.
14:44:29 <bsmntbombdood> ehird, you live in the united states, it's too early to be awake
14:44:36 <ehird> I do?
14:44:41 <ehird> Also, so do you.
14:44:57 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, I thought ehird was in UK?
14:45:10 <bsmntbombdood> no
14:45:20 <ehird> I am.
14:45:25 <ehird> So bsmntbombdood is on crack or something.
14:45:27 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yes I'm 100% sure, unless he moved very recently
14:45:52 <bsmntbombdood> errr
14:46:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood is confused about my location as he is his gender.
14:46:24 <AnMaster> ehird, parse error
14:46:36 <AnMaster> (after "as")
14:46:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood becomes bsmntbombgirl every now and then and vice versa :-P
14:46:41 <AnMaster> ah
14:47:16 <bsmntbombdood> i am 100% sure ehird lives in on of those great lakes states
14:47:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how
14:47:35 <ehird> i'm wondering what kind of thought process lead to this
14:47:47 <ehird> (but from my /whois you can plainly see I'm in the UK. or at least sshing in there...)
14:47:52 <bsmntbombdood> because you said so
14:47:56 <ehird> ...when?
14:47:56 <AnMaster> ehird, * [ehird] (n=ehird@ Elliott Hird
14:48:02 <ehird> AnMaster: geoip
14:48:03 <AnMaster> you would have to look up that IP
14:48:05 <AnMaster> yeah
14:48:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I was going to get to that!
14:48:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no seriously, who are you confusing me with? :D
14:48:48 <AnMaster> RIPE claims it is UK when I looked it up that way
14:48:59 <AnMaster> inetnum: -
14:49:00 <AnMaster> descr: Range2 NewcastleUT /18
14:49:05 <AnMaster> mnt-by: Wanadoo-UK-MNT
14:49:27 <AnMaster> and later down there is a more specific entry
14:49:31 <ehird> Wanadoo? I don't think they've absorbed Orange...
14:49:34 <AnMaster> route:
14:49:34 <AnMaster> descr: Range2 LLU Subs
14:49:37 <bsmntbombdood> most odd
14:49:38 <ehird> Oh, wait, of course.
14:49:39 <AnMaster> origin: AS35736
14:49:39 <AnMaster> mnt-by: Wanadoo-UK-MNT
14:49:39 <AnMaster> source: RIPE # Filtered
14:49:39 <ehird> I think.
14:49:48 <ehird> I think.
14:49:50 <ehird> Yeah.
14:49:52 <AnMaster> ehird, you do?
14:49:52 <ehird> Yes
14:49:55 <AnMaster> that's news
14:49:57 <ehird> Orange is Wanadoo
14:50:05 <ehird> Hey, so I moved from Wanadoo to other ISPs to Wanadoo.
14:50:06 <ehird> Fun.
14:50:10 <ehird> Well, it was called freeserve before, but.
14:50:20 <AnMaster> ehird, weren't you going to switch to some tiny ISP?
14:50:24 <ehird> Yes.
14:50:31 <AnMaster> what happened with those plans?
14:50:37 <AnMaster> same as with new computer plans?
14:50:37 <bsmntbombdood> i suppose it's a reasonable time then
14:50:40 <ehird> It could happen immediately, but you know me. I'd want to have the domain ready for the DNS beforehand.
14:50:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but you live in the US too
14:50:48 <ehird> hypocrite :p
14:50:56 <ehird> AnMaster: The new computer plans just morphed.
14:51:07 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 .").
14:51:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but you live in the US too <-- aha! you wouldn't have said "too" unless you were lying above about being in UK! ;P
14:51:28 <ehird> Who the hell even uses Yahoo Messenger?
14:51:29 <ehird> AnMaster: dun dun dun
14:51:36 <bsmntbombdood> i know
14:52:11 <bsmntbombdood> but i'm having a weird hungover can't sleep after 5 hours of sleep
14:52:35 <ehird> eat an unborn fetus
14:52:46 <ehird> it doesn't help hangovers, but it enrages pro-lifers
14:52:59 <ehird> ...also anti-cannibalists, but
14:53:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> eat an unborn fetus <-- somehow that first parsed as "urban" on first try.
14:53:33 <ehird> You need the organic country fetuses.
14:53:38 <ehird> Support local farmers!
14:53:54 <AnMaster> ehird, wait for it. You want to know what happened on the second try?
14:53:58 <AnMaster> "unicorn"
14:54:04 <AnMaster> then finally correct on the third try
14:54:19 <ehird> Unborn urban unicorn fetuses.
14:54:25 <AnMaster> yeah
14:59:46 <ehird> I wonder why window resizing doesn't show it as you do it with Compiz.
14:59:58 <ehird> I mean, come on; how am I supposed to size a window to my liking if I don't know what it'll look like?
15:00:20 <ehird> Fixed in Compiz control center.
15:01:26 <ehird> Naturally it's a bit jerky, like window moving. Sigh.
15:01:42 <ehird> Nice to have a card that has literally no good drivers that I can use, no matter what freedoms I want.
15:02:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> Naturally it's a bit jerky, like window moving. Sigh. <-- even with metacity on intel graphics it works very nice
15:02:24 <AnMaster> same for kwin on nvidia drivers. But that is expected
15:02:32 <ehird> Uh, Metacity doesn't resize the window in-place does it?
15:02:46 <ehird> Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver.
15:02:50 <AnMaster> ehird, it previews as I go along at least
15:03:11 <ehird> Window moving is smooth, I guess; it just flickers.
15:03:14 <AnMaster> a tiny jerk every now and then for konsole, none at all in kate
15:03:16 <ehird> Like, it redraws each pixel.
15:03:19 <ehird> So it's a bit jerky at the edges.
15:03:28 <ehird> Very slow.
15:03:31 <ehird> sort of animation
15:03:34 <ehird> (the actual moving is quick)
15:03:39 <AnMaster> ehird, not so here.
15:03:46 <ehird> Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver.
15:03:46 <ehird> Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver.
15:03:46 <ehird> Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver.
15:03:46 <ehird> Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver.
15:03:52 <AnMaster> right
15:03:53 <ehird> I am aware what the problem is.
15:03:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just gloating :P
15:04:00 <ehird> radeonhd doesn't seem to give me 3D, or something, and the only fglrx supporting this X11 version doesn't support my card.
15:04:08 <ehird> AnMaster: thing is, it worked last Ubuntu
15:04:20 <ehird> where fglrx was a version supporting my card, and the X11 version was older
15:04:27 <ehird> it was perfect and flowers and kittens then
15:04:27 <AnMaster> ehird, file a bug which devs will look at in a few months if you are lucky
15:04:33 <ehird> uh
15:04:34 <ehird> to what
15:04:37 <AnMaster> ubuntu
15:04:40 <AnMaster> or something
15:04:41 <ehird> saying what
15:04:45 <ehird> "please make this not suck"?
15:04:58 <AnMaster> ehird, that seems to be what half the bugs currently there do
15:05:02 <ehird> they'll respond "lol donate code and cocksucking to these wonderful LIBRE drivers"
15:05:15 <ehird> or perhaps even just "the free drivers work perfectly. what are you talking about."
15:05:26 <ehird> "NO. FLAWS."
15:05:32 <AnMaster> ehird, there isn't a lot anyone can do about closed source not supporting current systems
15:05:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Except that the hardware specs for ATI cards are Free.
15:05:54 <AnMaster> ehird, work is underway iirc
15:06:00 <ehird> Yes, very slowly.
15:06:05 <AnMaster> the specs haven't been free for very long
15:06:07 <AnMaster> why not help!
15:06:29 <ehird> How about I bludgeon the X11 developers to death and tell them to never break backwards-compatibility ever again? :P
15:06:39 <ehird> I am willing to sacrifice my principles for fglrx!
15:06:47 <AnMaster> ehird, then you get something like POSIX in a few years
15:06:56 <ehird> Oh fuck, my notebook will have an even older ATI card
15:07:01 <AnMaster> that is, patches on patches
15:07:02 <ehird> Kill me XD
15:07:09 <AnMaster> ehird, buy a new notebook then
15:07:16 <ehird> OTOH, it'll fail horribly at Compiz, most likely
15:07:16 <AnMaster> instead
15:07:16 <bsmntbombdood> hmph
15:07:18 <ehird> or at least be superfluous
15:07:21 <bsmntbombdood> will there ever be an x12?
15:07:22 <ehird> so no worries
15:07:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Widescreen, dude
15:07:29 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, x12 of what?
15:07:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no
15:07:32 <ehird> AnMaster: X11
15:07:36 <ehird> it's the 11th version of X
15:07:37 <AnMaster> ehird, you can survive widescreen
15:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, ah
15:07:42 <AnMaster> right
15:07:59 <AnMaster> it's like there will never be Mac OS Y (or Mac OS XI)
15:08:04 <AnMaster> (probably)
15:08:20 <ehird> AnMaster: No, because the only acceptable widescreen is 12", which, while being as wide as a 14" 4:3, has such a huge screen border and is widescreen, and so it's really tiny.
15:08:34 <ehird> 12" 16:10 + big border is simply not an acceptable screen size for my main machine.
15:08:44 <AnMaster> ehird, why the big border
15:08:49 <ehird> Because that's what the X200 has.
15:08:53 <AnMaster> oh ok
15:09:05 <AnMaster> ehird, what is "big border" by your standards
15:09:19 <ehird> http://www.goodcleantech.com/images/Lenovo%20X200.jpg
15:09:51 <ehird> AnMaster: If you want comparison,
15:10:06 <ehird> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34871.jpg
15:10:12 <ehird> Pictured: Big border, big border, small border.
15:10:39 <fizzie> Hey, at least with X.Org we finally got a X11R7; it was X11R6 for quite a long long time. (1994-2005, based on Wikipedia; they got from X1 to X11 in three years, from X11 to X11R6 in seven, and it took eleven years to get through X11R6...)
15:10:39 <ehird> Anyway, it simply makes the already tiny 12" 16:10 screen even smaller.
15:10:55 <ehird> It's an ultraultraportable; a secondary machine for those with money.
15:11:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the middle one seems to have same border size as the left one?
15:11:02 <ehird> And little sense.
15:11:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes.
15:11:24 <ehird> X200, X300 (13", has CD drive, slower processor), XX61
15:11:26 <ehird> *X61
15:11:35 <ehird> (X300 is concurrent with X200)
15:12:11 <AnMaster> ehird, also what is wrong with that? Just consider paintings, often with huge borders. Gold coloured. Compared to those, that monitor border is really subtle and small
15:12:17 <AnMaster> ;P
15:12:27 <AnMaster> just imagine some baroque border around a monitor
15:12:38 <ehird> Please shut up, or I'll start taking what you're saying seriously.
15:12:59 <AnMaster> ehird, :D
15:13:49 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the X200 seems to have acceptable border size
15:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, for a larger laptop.
15:14:08 <AnMaster> in the other pic, with three computers, what model is the thin border one
15:14:10 <ehird> AnMaster: That whole thing is a bit over 30.5cm wide.
15:14:17 <ehird> You do the maths.
15:14:23 <ehird> That screen is *tiny*.
15:14:26 <ehird> AnMaster: X61, the older X series.
15:14:51 <AnMaster> ehird, about flushed to edges, I would say it's keyboard is that
15:14:55 <ehird> It's 12" and really tiny, but its screen is actually taller, and it is much smaller psychologically (as opposed to being as wide as a normal 14" 4:3 notebook)
15:15:37 <ehird> I don't want the X61, but it's at least understandable, as opposed to the insane X200: all the wideness of a full-sized notebook, none of the screen.
15:16:06 <AnMaster> why the extra border though for the wide screen one
15:16:09 <AnMaster> it doesn't make sense
15:16:18 <ehird> Camera, antennas, etc.
15:16:23 <ehird> (Cheaper display, ... :P)
15:16:27 <AnMaster> why camera?
15:16:32 <ehird> (Joking on that last one; the X200 is far from cheap.)
15:16:37 <ehird> AnMaster: For... camera purposes?
15:16:43 <ehird> You know? A camera?
15:16:50 <ehird> Takes pictures and videos of you?
15:16:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but why waste space on that
15:17:06 <ehird> It's a waste because you don't use it?
15:17:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, when you can use that for making the border smaller
15:17:50 <ehird> Get a no computer. They have infinitely small borders.
15:17:52 <ehird> But anyway, no.
15:17:54 <ehird> Antennas.
15:18:00 <AnMaster> ehird, oh about older thinkpads, you said you wanted pre-n? I guess you plan to get a PC-card then
15:18:01 <ehird> And no, dropping WiFi is not an option.
15:18:14 <AnMaster> which will stick out a fair bit
15:18:15 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't need it
15:18:19 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
15:18:38 <ehird> You said I can get 800kiB/s with g
15:19:22 <AnMaster> well yes assuming good reception it should work out. You will get lower speed when you are getting near the limit of the range of the AP of course
15:19:49 <ehird> As long as I can get 800kiB/s from across the room the router is in, I'm fine.
15:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, should work
15:20:26 <fizzie> I get something like 2-3 MB/s for scp-over-802.11g here.
15:20:32 <ehird> I have one of those infamous Linksys Linux blue-green-and-antennas routers, which probably does WiFi well.
15:20:44 <AnMaster> infamous?
15:20:46 <ehird> fizzie: 1000 or 1024
15:21:03 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pcgenie.co.nz/images/products/WRT54GL.jpg
15:21:14 <ehird> Pretty much "the" wireless router for Linux people, no?
15:21:16 <AnMaster> ehird, ah those
15:21:25 <fizzie> Probably MiB/s, I guess that's what scp says.
15:21:36 <AnMaster> ehird, and possibly. I don't have that model though.
15:21:38 <ehird> fizzie: what router?
15:21:41 <AnMaster> Some speedtouch instead
15:21:44 <fizzie> ehird: http://masnugie.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/wap54g2.jpg
15:21:59 <ehird> fizzie: Linksys buddies! :P
15:22:02 <ehird> L or normal?
15:22:04 <AnMaster> ehird, fizzie, different model
15:22:10 <AnMaster> look at the front panel
15:22:15 <AnMaster> different number of green dots
15:22:18 <ehird> No, just newer/older
15:22:21 <ehird> And I doubt he took that photo
15:22:28 <fizzie> ehird: there wasn't a "non-L" model of WAP54G back then; I'm not sure there is one now.
15:22:37 <fizzie> It's the access point one, lacking the Ethernet switch.
15:22:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, different model! Newer model and older model.
15:22:40 <ehird> fizzie: There is.
15:22:43 <AnMaster> How are they same?
15:22:48 <ehird> non-L was Linux, then non-L became vxworks.
15:23:01 <ehird> Then L became Linux for the grubby GPLists and firmware replacers.
15:23:04 <fizzie> Right, well, it was "non-L" back when there were only non-L models.
15:23:46 <AnMaster> <fizzie> It's the access point one, lacking the Ethernet switch. <-- no ethernet at all? Or just one ethernet?
15:23:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: Just one interface.
15:24:01 <AnMaster> ah
15:25:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: The WRT54G has a hardware switch; IIRC the different ports show up to the kernel as one interface but the packets get 802.1Q vlan tags appropriately.
15:25:21 <fizzie> Anyway, the WAP one has just a 2 MiB flash, it's a bit tricky to get alternative firmware for it; at least the default openwrt builds are too fat to fit.
15:25:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, why vlan?
15:26:00 <AnMaster> oh you mean it is somehow faked as one interface + vlan tags instead of several interfaces?
15:26:01 <AnMaster> huh
15:26:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: So you can have different behaviour for the ports; one of them is the "WAN" port, for external interweb, while the others are for LAN.
15:26:09 <AnMaster> ok
15:26:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, about 2 MiB flash, what about using a basic software that then loads the rest over PXE boot or root on nfs
15:26:55 <AnMaster> from somewhere on the LAN
15:26:57 <fizzie> And it's not really "faked" as one interface, it's just that the Ethernet switching is done in hardware; there's just one switch port directly connected to the WRT board and configured to get those vlan tags. (This is all based on what I remember about it.)
15:27:13 <fizzie> AnMaster: 8 MiB of RAM, so, uh, there's not too much of that either.
15:27:25 <AnMaster> oh ok
15:27:33 <ehird> More RAM than flash :D
15:27:54 <fizzie> Original WRT54G has 4 MiB flash and 16 MiB RAM, so that's a bit larger.
15:27:58 <AnMaster> ehird, not strange at all. After all, it will likely need to keep lots of routing info in ram
15:27:59 <AnMaster> and what not
15:31:17 * ehird thinks about sandboxing
15:33:18 <AnMaster> ehird, kernel module may be the way to go. Hook in around the same place as SELinux and do stuff there?
15:33:19 <fizzie> Yes, there's a 6-port programmable switch, and the default configuration puts ports 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 in vlan0, and ports 0 and 5 to vlan1; 0 is the one labeled "WAN", 1-4 are the LAN ports and 5 is the one that's eth0 to the WRT; then the stock firmware bridges vlan0 and eth1 (LAN and wifi), and configures routing between vlan1 (interwebs) and br0 (locals).
15:33:33 <ehird> AnMaster: i mean theoretical; to start with i will just ld_preload For My Sanity.
15:33:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, why are there two WAN ports?
15:34:33 <fizzie> Where?
15:34:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, err you said 0 and 5 were on the same vlan?
15:35:08 <fizzie> Yes; to port 0 you connect whatever you want, and port 5 is the one that's physically wired to the WRT board.
15:35:20 <AnMaster> ehird, LD_PRELOAD... Sanity? Surely you are joking.
15:35:29 <fizzie> It wouldn't be very useful to have a single-port vlan on an Ethernet switch, given that the packets wouldn't, you know, go anywhere.
15:35:39 <ehird> It's easy to do and the simplest method to test without assembling a distro.
15:35:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh so port 5 is internal?
15:35:55 <ehird> I can just add "LD_PRELOAD=foo.so" to the start of a command and I'm sorted.
15:36:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, and is connected to eth0. I seriously hope that it is just a few wires, rather than actually an ethernet connector inside
15:36:31 <fizzie> Yes. It also has the special "keep the vlan tags" bit set; for the other ports, the switch doesn't add those.
15:36:54 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, do you think you can root a box with just syscalls?
15:37:04 <fizzie> It's probably on the same piece of board.
15:37:24 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on if I'm root or not at that point. If i'm root in a chroot I could break out of it
15:37:28 <fizzie> If you can root a box at all, you can certainly root it with just syscalls, given that everything else is just user-mode code you could include in the binary.
15:37:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Nope.
15:37:33 <AnMaster> and if it was an old kernel I could abuse vmsplice or whatever
15:38:04 <ehird> I'm just trying to figure out how to crack anarchy golf using its seeming lack of syscall overriding :-)
15:38:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you couldn't root it as such, but possibly do other unintended things, depending on where the process is. Maybe fill /tmp or something?
15:38:48 <AnMaster> or find out what users exist in /etc/passwd
15:39:00 <ehird> "can allocate >50MB memory" is one of the crack conditions
15:39:07 <AnMaster> of course if it runs without privs and in an empty chroot...
15:39:09 <ehird> In total:
15:39:10 <ehird> * can access network
15:39:10 <ehird> * can be root
15:39:10 <ehird> * can allocate >50MB memory
15:39:10 <ehird> * meet stupid things
15:39:26 <AnMaster> ehird, all at once or any of them?
15:39:31 <ehird> If you meet stupid things, it is the bug, I gather.
15:39:34 <ehird> Yay Engrish!
15:39:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Any.
15:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well, there are other ways to restrict the ones mentioned. For network: iptables with "owner" match to match uid, pid or executable name iirc. For allocation there is limits.
15:41:00 <AnMaster> for "be root" well obviously systemcalls doesn't allow that without going through authorised ways, like suid binaries
15:41:07 <fizzie> Yes, given a kernel that does what it should, you should be able to block those three things without any manual syscall blocking.
15:41:42 <AnMaster> I don't know about meeting stupid things
15:41:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: What? But you do that every day here on the channel!
15:42:06 <ehird> Hey! I am NOT a "thing".
15:42:07 <AnMaster> I never met anyone when walking through the directory hierarchy. It's so lonely in /etc...
15:42:08 <ehird> :D
15:42:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, :P
15:43:00 <AnMaster> someone should write some app to allow you to walk around on your file system in a 3D env
15:43:07 <AnMaster> possibly this has been done
15:43:10 <ehird> This is Unix. I know this!
15:43:19 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
15:43:29 <ehird> fsn ftw
15:43:36 <AnMaster> fsn?
15:43:51 <ehird> fsn is unix, she knows this.
15:43:53 <AnMaster> that gives "FOX Sports" as first hit in google
15:43:59 <ehird> http://www.siliconbunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/3060c037-069f-4715-a01e-c30e53e505a2.jpg
15:44:23 <fizzie> As seen famously in Jurassic Park.
15:44:23 <AnMaster> ehird, ooh nice, but I was thinking more along the lines of rougelike in 3D
15:44:28 <fizzie> ""It's the Unix system!"
15:44:29 <ehird> fizzie: Quite so!
15:44:35 <ehird> fizzie: She knows this.
15:44:37 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
15:44:42 <fizzie> She has it at school, yes.
15:44:43 <AnMaster> I don't get the references
15:44:45 <AnMaster> ...
15:45:03 <AnMaster> I never seen jurassic park btw
15:45:04 <ehird> You can tell it's a mainframe because it has blinkenlights and is big.
15:45:10 <ehird> AnMaster: *I
15:45:14 <ehird> *I've
15:45:19 <AnMaster> well right
15:45:21 <fizzie> Thanks to that comment I just wrote "jurassic machine" instead of "jurassic park".
15:45:28 <ehird> JURASSIC MACHINE
15:45:42 <ehird> Has a more badass terminologe ever been used?
15:45:56 <ehird> terminology, n. plural of terminologe.
15:45:56 <fizzie> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107290/quotes has the quote (just search for "UNIX") but without context it really doesn't say much.
15:46:02 <AnMaster> anyway, what are you on about. Can you explain what the hell you are talking about
15:46:14 <ehird> AnMaster: No.
15:46:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: Just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fsn
15:46:37 <ehird> I like how that quotes page is filled with terrible quotes
15:46:49 -!- adam_d_ has joined.
15:46:57 <AnMaster> oh hah
15:47:09 <ehird> Henry Wu: You're implying that a group composed entirely of female animals will... breed?
15:47:09 <ehird> Dr. Ian Malcolm: No, I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way.
15:47:14 <ehird> ...wat?
15:47:20 <ehird> Is he expecting them to mutate their own genes in the past or something?
15:48:04 <AnMaster> no what I had in mind was something like... a rouge like dungeon in 3D, representing your file system.
15:48:28 <fizzie> You could probably adapt psdoom to file system use.
15:48:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh that process killer one, ah yes seems a good base.
15:49:08 <ehird> Doom is ALWAYS a good base.
15:49:09 <fizzie> http://psdoom.sourceforge.net/ even lists in Goals: "Possibly make other interfaces besides one to 'ps', such as a file management module. "
15:49:28 <ehird> A restricted directory is accessed by getting the blue sudo key.
15:50:06 <AnMaster> ah
15:50:21 <ehird> :P
15:51:23 <AnMaster> why are all the screenshots so small
15:51:31 <AnMaster> almost unreadable
15:51:41 <AnMaster> even on my low dpi desktop display
15:51:52 <AnMaster> completey unreadable on my laptop of course
15:51:57 <ehird> It's from the 90s
15:52:05 <ehird> But that's the real resolution of Doom
15:52:09 <ehird> 320x200
15:52:16 <ehird> 1993, dude
15:52:24 <AnMaster> ehird, what dpi was the screens back then...
15:52:26 <ehird> Give it some Ctrl + magic
15:52:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Uh, CRt.
15:52:34 <ehird> *CRT
15:52:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> Give it some Ctrl + magic <-- ?
15:52:39 <ehird> Ctrl-+
15:52:42 <ehird> Zoom in
15:52:56 <AnMaster> ehird, that zooms the text only it seems
15:53:07 <AnMaster> ah no, now it works
15:53:26 <ehird> Anyway, 320x200 would fill your whole, I dunno, 15" CRT?
15:53:30 <ehird> (So about 13" viewable)
15:53:52 -!- adam_d__ has joined.
15:54:35 <fizzie> That's something like 30 dpi; not too shabby. Pixels smaller than a millimeter is nothing to sneer at.
15:54:55 <ehird> Yes, well, the pixels stretched out.
15:54:59 <ehird> This *is* a CRT...
15:55:28 <AnMaster> true
15:55:46 <fizzie> CRTs do have a native DPI-style limit from the shadow mask/aperture grille, though.
15:57:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, there tends to be a max res you can set on CRTs too. So clearly it is limited in some way.
15:58:34 <ehird> That's what he said...
15:59:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I agreed with him...
15:59:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:02:02 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:02:14 <fizzie> Hey, I found an old picture of that Performa mac I used to have: http://zem.fi/~fis/random.jpg
16:02:47 <ehird> It looks like an old Mac.
16:03:01 <ehird> Hey, that keyboard is a clicky one. Hope you kept it.
16:03:08 <ehird> Nice theme, btw.
16:03:11 * oerjan stereotypically assumes fizzie keeps pictures of his computers instead of family
16:03:37 <fizzie> Er, well, it was an ADB thing, and anyway "part of the box", so since I sold the computer, I sort-of had to give the keyboard with it too.
16:03:52 <ehird> fizzie: You can tell by that flat power-on key.
16:04:04 <ehird> It uses real mechanical keyswitches. Alps ones, not even manufactured any more. In fact that keyboard is famous.
16:04:09 <oerjan> turn on the flat power
16:04:10 <ehird> You coulda sold it for as much money as the computer. :P
16:04:29 <fizzie> Hey, I also found the posters I had on the wall at that apartment: http://zem.fi/~fis/juliste3.jpg
16:05:07 <ehird> They look like very dull old printer posters.
16:05:46 <fizzie> The one on the left was written by mooz, I think. Too bad they're not really readable.
16:06:24 <ehird> #ECE7D4 is quite a nice background colour.
16:06:41 <oerjan> what is the right one a picture of?
16:06:43 <ehird> For a desktop, that is.
16:06:53 <ehird> oerjan: the isometric comic
16:06:55 <ehird> from that i think
16:07:15 <oerjan> never heard of it
16:07:42 <fizzie> Yes, I'll try to locate the link.
16:07:53 <fizzie> http://isometric.sixsided.org/strips/only_when_youre_ready/
16:08:04 <ehird> What happened to http://www.pixelcomic.net/ :(
16:08:45 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:09:32 <fizzie> Anyway, the picture I was actually looking for was: http://zem.fi/~fis/skreen.jpg -- that's my old CRT, which I typically ran at 1600x1200 even though it didn't really support a resolution that high very well, especially at the edges of the screen, as you can probably see.
16:10:19 <fizzie> (There's a bit of extra blurring also from the photography, but the RGB misalignment is very real.)
16:11:30 <ehird> That must have hurt your eyes.
16:11:35 <Deewiant> #/usr/bin/??
16:11:49 <ehird> !/usr/bin/ff, I think.
16:11:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: "ff", the name of my Befunge interpreter.
16:11:55 <ehird> I'm pretty sure that's a !.
16:11:56 <ehird> Or a *
16:12:04 <fizzie> And yes, it's #!/...
16:12:12 <ehird> ffl?
16:12:17 <ehird> What's the last character
16:12:19 <ehird> ff1?
16:12:25 <fizzie> That's a ], to end the prompt.
16:12:41 <ehird> A... prompt?
16:12:45 <ehird> But this is a shebang line.
16:12:54 <ehird> I thought ] too first
16:12:55 <fizzie> It's the name of the channel; it's an irssi screenshot.
16:13:13 <ehird> Oh, I thought that was the start of a shell in a split screen(1) type thing
16:13:17 <ehird> Fun channel name
16:13:37 <fizzie> It was one of those "like a query, except with four people" channels.
16:13:58 <Deewiant> "ff" is the name of your befunge interpreter?
16:13:59 <fizzie> Not very likely to have others that desperately wanted the coveted "#!/usr/bin/ff" channel too.
16:14:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: The name of one, yes. It was a strictly Befunge-93 type of thing, with an emphasis on "fast", and I don't think I ever released it.
16:15:04 <Deewiant> Aha.
16:15:56 <fizzie> Deewiant: About the only distinctive thing in it was that it had (with suitable C preprocessor macros) four copies of most instructions, for all cardinal directions, with the IP movement parts and a computed-goto-to-next-instruction inlined directly after the instruction processing.
16:16:17 <Deewiant> Heh.
16:16:24 <ehird> --- PRIVMSG :Too many recipients. Only 1 processed
16:16:31 <ehird> IRC clients that disable a,b users suck!
16:16:32 <ehird> er
16:16:33 <ehird> servers
16:18:59 <fizzie> I think it might also have had a nonstandard 256x256 playfield, to make it so that a single "unsigned char ip[2];" worked as the IP, with byte-sized ++ and -- doing automatic wrapping, and "*(unsigned short *)ip" as the offset to the playfield.
16:20:53 <fizzie> Though mooz's approach of "80x25 playfield in an 82x27-sized block of memory, simple increment/decrement for IP movement, borders lined with special instructions that actually did the wrapping" was pretty fast too.
16:22:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: iwc :) (although it was obvious)
16:23:57 <fizzie> Gnah, I wonder how many days it will take me to unlearn the "hover a cursor in the top navigation bar in search of the Darths & Droids link" reflex.
16:24:25 <ehird> Why/
16:24:27 <ehird> *?
16:25:00 <ehird> s/\/\n\*\?/?/, just to make it oh-so-clear.
16:25:25 <fizzie> Why wonder, why unlearn, why such a reflex, why something else? (Not that I probably have any answers.)
16:25:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, read it hours ago, and was afk when you joined
16:25:34 <AnMaster> damn :P
16:25:35 <ehird> fizzie: Why unlearn?
16:26:07 <fizzie> Because the link is no longer there.
16:26:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, why is the link no longer there
16:26:23 <fizzie> That I don't know.
16:26:29 <ehird> :D
16:26:29 <AnMaster> oh you mean iwc nav bar
16:26:31 <AnMaster> not your browser
16:26:33 <AnMaster> right
16:26:33 <ehird> You are strange!
16:26:34 <ehird> Oh.
16:26:42 <ehird> That's less amusing.
16:26:53 <fizzie> Apologies.
16:26:53 <Deewiant> fizzie: What did you use to measure speed?
16:26:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah it irritates me too that they moved them to the bottom
16:27:15 <ehird> Change is bad and you should feel bad.
16:27:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, I don't remember, it was so long ago. life.bf, I would guess.
16:27:41 <Deewiant> Doesn't it run forever?
16:28:17 <fizzie> Yes, but you can measure the character output flow rate. :p
16:28:20 <oerjan> fizzie: i've started going from mezzacotta instead of from iwc, less scrolling to find the links
16:28:56 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/
16:28:59 <fizzie> I do have a bookmark, I've just gotten into the habit of navigating there from iwc.
16:28:59 <ehird> <3
16:30:07 <ehird> (http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=156 actually made me laugh)
16:30:31 <oerjan> fizzie: DMM said in the forum the upper menu got too long when he added Archive Binge iirc
16:30:47 <oerjan> so he divided it up
16:31:00 <oerjan> er bar
16:31:03 * ehird considers RiemannZeta(Garfield)
16:31:08 <fizzie> Hm, is there an Archive Binge link somewhere, then?
16:32:00 <oerjan> erm good question
16:32:03 <ehird> :D
16:32:30 <oerjan> maybe it was Awkward Fumbles
16:32:33 <fizzie> Oh, that's another DMM feature? Saw it advertised on somewhere, hadn't realized it was so.
16:32:51 <fizzie> Archive Binge, I mean.
16:32:57 <oerjan> yep
16:33:45 <oerjan> what i am wondering is how long they can keep that up if it gets popular, given that they've pledged not to use ads or earn money from it...
16:34:13 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Though mooz's approach of "80x25 playfield in an 82x27-sized block of memory, simple increment/decrement for IP movement, borders lined with special instructions that actually did the wrapping" was pretty fast too. <-- hm.... I wonder if that could be translated to 98, and if so, how efficient it would be
16:34:24 <AnMaster> you would have to rewrite the borders as program expanded
16:34:41 <AnMaster> depending on how the program behaved it could be a huge slow down or a small speed up I guess
16:34:48 <oerjan> or maybe it was that Facebook link
16:34:49 <fizzie> Doesn't sound all that feasible; you'd have to somehow catch all possible deltas.
16:34:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Befunge-93.
16:35:03 <Deewiant> Oh, you added something at the end.
16:35:08 <AnMaster> yes...
16:35:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah hm true
16:35:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: The "quote ← comment" syntax is confusing.
16:35:26 <Deewiant> Do it some other way, that way I always tend to miss what you say on the first read.
16:35:27 <AnMaster> I always forgot about messy non-cardinal deltas
16:35:38 <fizzie> Confusing but common.
16:35:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is <-- not ←
16:35:55 <fizzie> It's the same general shape, anyway.
16:36:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, I shall use %% or // then I guess
16:36:07 <Deewiant> That's just alpha-conversion, they're all equivalent.
16:36:16 <AnMaster> alpha-conversion?
16:36:26 <Deewiant> α-conversion.
16:36:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, what does that term mean?
16:36:41 <AnMaster> in this context
16:36:48 <Deewiant> Renaming bound variables in lambda expressions.
16:37:09 <Deewiant> λx.x is equivalent to λz.z.
16:38:00 <AnMaster> mhm
16:40:00 <Deewiant> Anyway, doing it in 98 should work fine, just handle noncardinals separately.
16:40:14 <Deewiant> Wrapping around with them is likely quite rare.
16:40:15 <oerjan> <Deewiant> That's just alpha-conversion, they're all equivalent. MY RESPONSE: is this equivalent too?
16:40:23 <ehird> <oerjan> what i am wondering is how long they can keep that up if it gets popular, given that they've pledged not to use ads or earn money from it...
16:40:26 <ehird> hosting is cheap
16:41:31 <oerjan> ehird: i suppose. it's just if it gets _really_ popular, and is used for a lot of external webcomics...
16:41:33 <ehird> "We only include webcomics whose authors have given us permission to make feeds of their work. We do this out of respect for their work and allowing authors to control the distribution of their own property."
16:41:36 <ehird> Well that's useless, then.
16:41:51 <ehird> oerjan: how much bandwidth could it possibly use
16:41:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have to detect that condition though
16:41:54 <ehird> they don't host the images
16:42:03 <ehird> at most, a few hundred gb a month
16:42:06 <ehird> that's like $30
16:42:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so instead of testing if it is in range you now test if it is cardinal or not
16:42:18 <oerjan> ehird: i don't know. i suppose they must have thought about it.
16:42:26 <ehird> oerjan: Why?
16:42:32 <ehird> irregularwebcomic is really popular and free.
16:42:35 <ehird> Hosting is cheap.
16:42:38 <ehird> It's never the cost.
16:42:47 <ehird> (unless you're *HUGE*)
16:42:50 <oerjan> ehird: otherwise they wouldn't make the pledge
16:43:03 <ehird> That's just "ads in RSS feeds suck".
16:43:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> <oerjan> what i am wondering is how long they can keep that up if it gets popular, given that they've pledged not to use ads or earn money from it... <-- context?
16:43:15 <ehird> Plus it's in an FAQ.
16:43:17 <ehird> They have all kinds of shit
16:43:22 <ehird> *shit.
16:43:52 <oerjan> ehird: oh. it's just that i saw girl genius break their hosting quotas several times... admittedly once was because of their weird two-track structure suddenly merging, but they have broken it again after that
16:44:14 <oerjan> admittedly they may be among the largest, they won a hugo after all
16:44:17 <ehird> Isn't that comic on comicgenesis or some crap?
16:44:29 <ehird> Googling says no.
16:44:34 <ehird> Anyway, most people are cheapskates.
16:44:42 <ehird> The person running irregularwebcomic, which is quite big, probably isn't.
16:44:46 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:45:48 <oerjan> i suppose they _would_ be cheapskates on costs given they are actually earning a living from it
16:47:16 <ehird> The hosting bill for irregular webcomic might break $100. I don't know how much readership it has, really.
16:47:32 <ehird> I estimate it to probably be around $50-75 if it's on a VPS, $30-40 otherwise.
16:47:39 <ehird> (More if it's a dedi, obviously.)
16:48:17 * oerjan vaguely recalls somewhere around two or three thousand
16:48:25 <ehird> A month?
16:48:33 <oerjan> readers
16:48:37 <ehird> Oh. :P
16:48:44 <ehird> Well that's basically nothing.
16:48:49 <oerjan> oh wait
16:48:57 <oerjan> maybe that was people who answered the polls
16:49:50 <oerjan> yeah that cannot be right then
16:57:11 <ehird> ...uh. Going to code and I draw a blank. Let's install... gvim. Yeah. That'll do. For now.
16:57:17 <ehird> Damn unfamiliar environments!
16:58:19 <oerjan> gvim for your gvisual needs!
16:59:00 <ehird> And yet the modality is not yet learnt to me, so it's quite annoying
16:59:13 <AnMaster> ehird, try emacs then? :P
16:59:41 <ehird> Probably...
16:59:58 <ehird> You know me; I'll go and make a redesign of the menu system or something as soon as I start it.
17:00:06 <ehird> That thing could be *useful*, dammit!
17:00:17 <ehird> But it's worth a try.
17:00:36 <oerjan> ehird: stop channeling zzo there :D
17:00:56 <ehird> Well, the menu system is really bad. :P
17:01:14 <ehird> Emacs uses its own antialiasing settings it seems...
17:01:21 <ehird> Bad dog! Less hinting! Ow! Ow! Ow!
17:01:25 <AnMaster> ehird, X mode?
17:01:26 <AnMaster> why
17:01:29 <ehird> The text is tingling goddammit.
17:01:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Because I don't believe in shoehorning a VT100 to emulate graphical controls.
17:01:55 * oerjan is _so_ glad he doesn't have a keen sense of aesthetics
17:02:25 <ehird> And also because there's no reason not to, and it offers more integration with the world around it, and more font possibilities, and I can view images from inside emacs, and use multiple frames, and have scrollbars (albeit sucky ones).
17:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, here emacs looks correct... 23.1.1
17:02:46 <AnMaster> it seems to use less antialias than most other stuff, previously it used same
17:02:50 <ehird> Presumably your hinting/subpixel settings are similar enough to it that you don't notice, or identical.
17:02:51 <AnMaster> (I just upgraded from 22.x)
17:03:04 <ehird> I use slight hinting + rgb, so I have quite "thick" text.
17:03:22 <ehird> Emacs' is very, very thin, very hinted, only slightly subpixeled text: it quite literally tingles at the edges.
17:03:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I prefer "crisp" font most of the time
17:03:29 <ehird> It's overly-crisp.
17:03:43 <ehird> Anyway, I'm using "blurry" fonts because the crisp ones are basically horrible with freetype.
17:03:44 <AnMaster> ehird, here, emacs in X mode uses no antialias as far as I can tell
17:03:49 <ehird> Emacs 22 didn't.
17:03:52 <ehird> Emacs 23 does.
17:04:12 <AnMaster> emacs 22 uses system settings as far as I can tell
17:04:17 <ehird> Now for the fun bit: can I make this not suck using only the GUI, even getting to the config page? This will be amusing!
17:04:43 <ehird> Oh boy, Emacs draws its own tooltip windows.
17:04:48 <ehird> Gotta love the NIH.
17:04:52 <AnMaster> ehird, it does?
17:04:55 <ehird> Yep.
17:04:57 <AnMaster> they look completely normal here
17:05:05 <ehird> I know this because the compiz window creation/fade out thing and window shadows appear.
17:05:13 <ehird> So it's very annoying.
17:05:20 <ehird> Also, they look different (background, border, text size, etc.)
17:05:24 <AnMaster> ah
17:05:46 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success).
17:05:55 <ehird> You can't kill a buffer from the menus. What an interesting oversight.
17:06:10 <ehird> (Note: That's not actually useful, but it just goes to show that these menus are very hodgepodge)
17:06:34 <ehird> Ugh, the customize groups are so unhelpful.
17:07:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you can. in the file menu, select close?
17:07:37 <ehird> But I'm not closing the file (it's not even a file), I'm killing the buffer.
17:07:50 <ehird> Obviously in a misguided attempt to provide a WIMP-like interface...
17:07:53 -!- adam_d__ has changed nick to adam_d.
17:08:06 <ehird> Seems strange that the Emacs developers would create an interface good for the novice at the expense of people who know how it works.
17:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, "But I want to eject the usb stick, not delete it" <-- ejecting on mac os X
17:08:17 <ehird> I guess they see menus as a useless kiddie sort of thing.
17:08:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, that sucks.
17:08:36 <ehird> I don't think OS X is perfect, it's just good.
17:08:57 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't help that Cmd-e ejects, and the key combo for moving to trash is another
17:09:01 <ehird> The difference is that with Emacs I have a minute chance of fixing it upstream, and can definitely fix it locally.
17:09:10 <AnMaster> ehird, yep
17:09:19 <ehird> Thus why I complain.
17:09:25 <ehird> Because it's less pointless.
17:09:34 <AnMaster> ehird, you may want Environment -> X
17:09:34 <AnMaster> maybe
17:09:54 <AnMaster> actually, no
17:09:57 <ehird> Nope; that group appears to be completley useless.
17:09:59 <ehird> *completely
17:10:07 <AnMaster> ehird, faces?
17:10:16 <ehird> Yeah. First I want to move the scrollbar to the right, though.
17:10:22 <ehird> (You know, where it is on every other program.)
17:10:37 <AnMaster> ehird, not every other app. Most ones yes, but there are other like emacs
17:10:45 <ehird> Not GTK ones, at least.
17:10:50 <ehird> (Not good ones, at least.)
17:10:51 <AnMaster> well, that is true
17:11:01 <ehird> I'm using Emacs GTK, of course.
17:11:25 <ehird> The whole point of a graphical Emacs is to fit into the environment, plus the scrollbars it uses otherwise are simply horrific.
17:11:34 <ehird> Also, I don't think you can do antialiasing with regular X.
17:11:46 <ehird> (Oh, and the menus are doubly-horrific, but that doesn't matter if the menus are useless.)
17:12:07 <ehird> I wonder why customize has no search.
17:12:17 <ehird> Oh, it does.
17:12:24 <ehird> In the menus but not in the customize window. Heh.
17:12:40 <ehird> "Settings Matching Regexp..." vs "Options Matching Regexp..."
17:12:48 <ehird> I can't even think of a sane distinction you could make between those.
17:13:07 <AnMaster> ehird, try #emacs ?
17:13:13 <ehird> But this is more fun. :)
17:14:23 <ehird> Meh. Google time.
17:15:45 <AnMaster> ehird, for me the emacs 23 fonts are WAY to stretched. Horrible.
17:15:51 <AnMaster> so I'm asking in #emacs
17:16:00 <AnMaster> since I found nothing useful in docs either
17:16:02 <ehird> They are the way to Stretched.
17:16:16 <ehird> AnMaster: try decreasing font size.
17:17:53 <ehird> This is irritating.
17:18:17 <ehird> Oh well; time to bite the bullet and write some lisp.
17:18:24 <ehird> First step, Google to move those fucking backup filse.
17:18:26 <ehird> *files
17:18:47 <AnMaster> ehird, options -> set default font
17:18:50 <AnMaster> seems relevant
17:18:58 <AnMaster> now to find out what the old one uses
17:19:05 <ehird> Probably a bitmap font.
17:19:10 <ehird> Just put the size down a bit, it'll look fine.
17:19:31 <AnMaster> what was the command to inspect X stuff now again...
17:19:33 * ehird save options
17:19:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Just ask emacs.
17:19:47 <AnMaster> some kind of window letting you click an X window and get stuff about it
17:19:47 <ehird> Oh yay, Custom added a bunch of shit to my .emacs.
17:19:53 <AnMaster> ehird, not emacs related. X related
17:19:59 <ehird> Why can't they just do it using functions?
17:20:04 <ehird> (setq transient-mark-mode t)
17:20:06 <ehird> WAS THAT SO HARD
17:20:09 <ehird> Or whatever it is
17:20:10 <ehird> They do
17:20:45 <ehird> Anyway, I recommend Dejavu sans mono 10pt
17:20:48 <ehird> It's decent enough
17:21:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> (setq transient-mark-mode t) <-- what does that do?
17:22:07 <ehird> I think it's default nowadays, but Custom put it in there anyway.
17:22:11 <ehird> I think it highlights the selection.
17:22:12 <fizzie> It does the region-highlighting.
17:22:13 <ehird> Xft.hinting:1
17:22:13 <ehird> Xft.hintstyle:hintslight
17:22:18 <ehird> So my Xft shit is fine
17:22:21 <fizzie> And it indeed is the default nowadays.
17:23:31 <AnMaster> ehird, the menu thing only lets you select from a list
17:23:37 <AnMaster> which doesn't contain dejavu here at least
17:23:41 * ehird disables the totally useless toolbar
17:23:48 <ehird> AnMaster: It's the gtk list.
17:24:00 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
17:24:00 <ehird> Are you sure you're using 23/gtk?
17:24:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I am
17:24:09 <ehird> Screenshot
17:24:15 <AnMaster> GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.14.7)
17:24:15 <AnMaster> of 2009-09-19 on tux.lan
17:24:20 <AnMaster> from about
17:24:20 <ehird> Screenshot of dialog
17:24:26 <fizzie> There's the emacs-internal list thing I've seen; but here the "set default fonts" does pop up the normal GTK+ font select-o-tron.
17:24:38 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no dialog, just a pop up menu under mouse with a set of font selections
17:24:54 <AnMaster> I can't screenshot it
17:24:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Well that's wrong.
17:24:57 <ehird> Those are bitmap fonts.
17:24:57 <AnMaster> since it goes away
17:24:58 <fizzie> That doesn't sound so very GTK-integrated to me.
17:25:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Your Emacs wasn't built with Xft.
17:25:06 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe.
17:25:14 <ehird> So you're hallucinating any antialiased fonts.
17:25:19 <fizzie> Your Emacs wasn't built in a day, you know.
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17:25:41 <fizzie> I'm sure you can do an Emacs build with Xft but without the GTK font selection list, though.
17:25:50 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. I can tell that 23 and 22 looks very different, both show the same menu thingy though
17:26:04 <ehird> Hey, you can move the scrollbar from the menus.
17:26:14 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
17:26:27 <ehird> Options -> View.
17:26:28 <AnMaster> good I want it diagonally
17:26:42 <ehird> Unfortunately it doesn't seem like you can persist hiding the toolbar with Save Options. Sigh.
17:26:43 <AnMaster> ehird, not there
17:26:49 <ehird> It's clear nobody uses this thiing.
17:26:51 <ehird> *thing
17:26:53 <ehird> AnMaster: What
17:27:01 <AnMaster> ehird, options yes, no view under it
17:27:15 <fizzie> "Options -> Show/Hide" here.
17:27:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes there it is
17:27:43 <ehird> oh
17:27:51 <ehird> wtf no emacs in my menus
17:27:52 <ehird> sigh
17:27:54 * ehird adds
17:28:13 <ehird> Oh, it just isn't showing that one. Odd.
17:29:09 <ehird> There we go.
17:29:51 <ehird> Yay.
17:29:52 <ehird> More customize cruft, less suck.
17:29:58 <ehird> Now for the biggun: Xft. Then backup files. Then tada.
17:30:08 <AnMaster> ehird, found it: M-x customize-faces RET default RET
17:30:13 <AnMaster> change that number from 118 to 101
17:30:22 <AnMaster> then set and save
17:30:32 <ehird> It's 102 h ere.
17:30:35 <ehird> *here
17:30:47 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, well I compared emacs-22 and emacs-23 settings
17:31:01 <ehird> What's under Font Family?
17:31:03 <AnMaster> and found that 122 and 101 was the different values, changing it fixed it
17:31:10 <AnMaster> ehird, adobe-courier
17:31:25 <ehird> Bitmap fonts.
17:31:28 <ehird> It's not antialiased.
17:31:30 <ehird> You have no Xft.
17:31:33 <ehird> Emacs 23 fail. :P
17:31:38 <AnMaster> ehird, right, I like this look though
17:31:42 <AnMaster> once it is set to 101
17:31:54 <AnMaster> ehird, a very nice look
17:32:00 <ehird> Courier is ugly as fuck.
17:32:05 <ehird> Argh, I wish Emacs didn't grab your cursor along as you scrolled.
17:32:08 <AnMaster> ehird, that's what SHE said
17:32:16 <ehird> Yes. Women hate Courier too.
17:32:40 <AnMaster> <ehird> Argh, I wish Emacs didn't grab your cursor along as you scrolled. <-- what do you mean? I can't reproduce it
17:33:17 <ehird> Scroll down. Watch your text cursor scroll with it.
17:33:26 <ehird> Perform in other graphical app. Note this not happening, and your place is kept.
17:33:28 <ehird> Rage at Emacs.
17:35:18 <AnMaster> ehird, oh that cursor
17:35:27 <AnMaster> thought you meant the mouse cursor
17:36:57 <Deewiant> That's the pointer.
17:37:28 <ehird> I poke things with it!
17:39:57 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
17:40:15 <AnMaster> ehird, other suggested editors: kate, gedit?
17:40:28 <ehird> Yeah, pr'aps.
17:40:50 <AnMaster> ehird, kate is very good, and KDE4 didn't manage to mess it up too much. Just remember to enable some of the plugin thingies
17:41:17 <ehird> What does kate have over gedit?
17:42:43 <ehird> Installing, though.
17:42:48 <ehird> If KDE breaks my system, I blame you. :)
17:42:56 <AnMaster> ehird, side bar for open documents for example. More options. Can't find stuff like line numbers and such in gedit either
17:43:01 <AnMaster> not that I looked very hard
17:43:02 <ehird> Also, late KDE 4 versions seem like an improvement to me. What are its flaws, other than change?
17:43:22 <ehird> gedit has such a sidebar. I mostly use tabs. What I value is a file tree to open and switch files of a given folder.
17:43:33 <ehird> Poor man's project management.
17:43:38 <AnMaster> ehird, the new search feature is worse IMO. On one hand it is search as you type now, which is nice
17:43:38 <AnMaster> but
17:43:54 <AnMaster> previously if you had your pointer in a word it would automatically enter that word when you hit ctrl-f
17:43:58 <AnMaster> which was nice
17:44:05 <AnMaster> now you need to select the word first for that to happen
17:44:13 <AnMaster> can't find anywhere to change it
17:44:14 <ehird> Doesn't bother me.
17:44:20 <ehird> I mean what's wrong with KDE 4 in general.
17:44:23 <ehird> Not 4.0, of course.
17:44:25 <ehird> Say 4.2 onwards.
17:44:30 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I thought you meant kate
17:44:47 <AnMaster> well, I just found it horrible when I tried. Plus buggy. And that was 4.2 iirc
17:45:06 <Deewiant> "Horrible plus buggy" describes most software.
17:45:23 <ehird> AnMaster: That's descriptive.
17:45:27 <ehird> I posit that you just hate change.
17:45:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hah. Well stuff like how the menus worked and what not. I couldn't even find any way to make it better
17:45:40 <AnMaster> since the control center thingy kept segfaulting on me
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17:45:47 <AnMaster> at that point I gave up
17:45:54 <ehird> Well, Kate doesn't use either my Gtk theme or my Gtk/Xresources font settings.
17:45:56 <ehird> A reassuring start.
17:46:02 <AnMaster> ehird, you can change that easily
17:46:03 <ehird> QGtkStyle, I hope there's a package.
17:46:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't care, it's annoying. :P
17:46:16 <AnMaster> ehird, just go to the KDE control center, and select GTK as theme
17:46:25 <ehird> Especially since the KDE 4 default theme is ugly.
17:46:35 <ehird> Hey, I close Kate and it segfaults.
17:46:37 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed. I dislike the default KDE 4 theme too
17:46:38 <ehird> Nice.
17:46:42 <ehird> I didn't even do anything to it.
17:46:42 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't happen here
17:46:46 <ehird> No shit.
17:47:01 <ehird> No QGtkStyle package.
17:47:18 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed, I think it is included with QT directly nowdays
17:47:35 <ehird> Clicking "Terminal" opens up a blank pane, instead of, say, "Hey! Install Konsole!"
17:47:40 <ehird> Polished, this thing :P
17:47:51 <ehird> AnMaster: lemme guess, I need kcontrol or something else similarly bloated?
17:47:54 <ehird> :P
17:48:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I installed konsole before. But it sounds like ubuntu package maintainers fail at dependencies.
17:48:13 <ehird> Oh, there's a Qt configuration thinig.
17:48:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess you could do it manually in ~/.kde
17:48:22 <ehird> Yet it's using the Gtk style, so...???
17:48:26 <AnMaster> let me look
17:48:47 <ehird> Alas the Qt configuratormotron has no hinting thing.
17:48:50 <ehird> Guess I'll install kcontrol.
17:49:02 <ehird> Or whatever it is these days.
17:49:23 <AnMaster> grep says ~/.kde/share/config/kdeglobals:widgetStyle=gtk+
17:49:28 <AnMaster> but that is an ini style file iirc
17:49:32 <AnMaster> so let me find section
17:49:57 <AnMaster> section should be [General]
17:50:09 <AnMaster> ehird, see if that works
17:50:25 <ehird> It does, but it still uses gtk icons.
17:50:26 <ehird> er
17:50:26 <ehird> kde
17:50:31 <AnMaster> oh ok. hm
17:50:43 <ehird> (And still acts like a KDE application, but that's a given.)
17:50:48 <AnMaster> ehird, let me look.
17:51:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I have it set to gtk for icons too iirc
17:51:36 <AnMaster> ./config/kdeglobals:Theme=gnome
17:51:37 <AnMaster> hm
17:51:49 <AnMaster> [Icons]
17:51:49 <AnMaster> Theme=gnome
17:51:51 <AnMaster> to be specific
17:51:53 <AnMaster> same file
17:51:55 <AnMaster> ehird, try that
17:52:14 <AnMaster> ehird, and for hinting, it is again same file. section General
17:52:15 <AnMaster> set
17:52:21 <AnMaster> XftHintStyle=hintmedium
17:52:26 <AnMaster> in [General] yes
17:52:27 <ehird> hintslight, you mean.
17:52:31 <AnMaster> change hint style as you want
17:52:40 <ehird> Anything to make it use the Gtk/Gnome file chooser?
17:52:58 <AnMaster> ehird, no idea, anything wrong with the KDE one?
17:53:08 <ehird> Yes, it's different :P
17:53:20 <ehird> Same icons are used.
17:53:29 * ehird tries Theme=Human
17:54:08 <ehird> AnMaster: open kate, click "Close" toolbar icon while no file is open, file->quit
17:54:09 <ehird> segfault
17:54:17 <AnMaster> oh also you may want to update the syntax highlight files: Settings -> Kate settings : Editor \ Open and saving : last tab, last button
17:54:21 <ehird> also, hint change did nothing
17:54:28 <AnMaster> ehird, hm odd, brb phone
17:58:02 -!- ehird has quit ("gnop").
17:58:19 -!- ehird has joined.
18:05:20 <ehird> Think I'll try redcar.
18:06:12 <ehird> WTF? Redcar is moving to JRuby with SWT...
18:06:14 <ehird> Way to shit up a project.
18:06:52 <ehird> Horrible font rendering, slow GUI, no desktop integration...
18:06:53 <ehird> Sheesh.
18:14:44 <AnMaster> back
18:15:29 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
18:16:40 <ehird> ERROR: ld.so: object 'sandbox.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.
18:16:43 <ehird> Queer.
18:16:43 <AnMaster> ehird, oh another KDE 4 fuckup: in the "open files"-tab on the side of kate you used to have one click to select a file, makes sense. And this wasn't related to single/double click in file browser or file selection dialog
18:17:08 <AnMaster> ehird, now in KDE 4 they are connected, you can't get double click in file chooser and single click in open file list
18:17:45 <AnMaster> same for in other selection dialogs, like the KDE control center one
18:18:27 <ehird> Oh, I needed ./sandbox.so
18:18:32 <AnMaster> ehird, of course
18:19:01 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/Code/sandbox$ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so ls
18:19:03 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you prevent calling yourself when LD_PRELOADED and wanting to call the underlying libc function?
18:19:06 <AnMaster> I forgot
18:19:09 <ehird> sandbox.c sandbox.c~ sandbox.so
18:19:09 <ehird> No exiting for you!
18:19:09 <ehird> sandbox.c sandbox.c~ sandbox.so
18:19:09 <ehird> No exiting for you!
18:19:09 <ehird> sandbox.c sandbox.c~ sandbox.so
18:19:10 <ehird> No exiting for you!
18:19:12 <ehird> [...]
18:19:17 <ehird> Well I didn't expect that to happen.
18:19:22 <ehird> Does _start loop or something?
18:19:28 <ehird> AnMaster: dlopen
18:19:33 <ehird> in your initialiser thing
18:19:43 <AnMaster> ehird, what did you do to make that looping happen
18:19:49 <ehird> void exit(int status)
18:19:49 <ehird> {
18:19:49 <ehird> printf("No exiting for you!\n");
18:19:49 <ehird> }
18:20:16 <AnMaster> ehird, try it on some non-GNU app, some simple test app, like hello world with an exit(0); call at the end
18:20:18 * ehird introduces an off-by-one error into strlen, cackles
18:20:45 <AnMaster> ehird, basically, ls could well me doing some strange look afaik
18:20:46 <AnMaster> oh and
18:20:52 <AnMaster> exit must return, gcc optimises for it
18:20:54 <ehird> AnMaster: exits normally (omitted the exit() since I know what it'd do)
18:20:57 <ehird> but what if I do _exit?
18:21:00 <AnMaster> err
18:21:03 <AnMaster> must NOT return
18:21:04 <AnMaster> I meant
18:21:06 <ehird> >:D
18:21:29 <ehird> _exit does nothing
18:21:37 <AnMaster> ehird, basically GCC assumes functions marked with the right attribute can't return, Thus being able to optimise better. This probably messes up your exit() there
18:21:40 <ehird> I guess start doesn't call it or whatever
18:21:45 <ehird> AnMaster: -O0? :-P
18:21:58 <AnMaster> ehird, no clue what happens at -O0 about it
18:22:37 <AnMaster> ehird, the GCC docs mentioning this is in the attribute docs, and iirc it is vague and says something like "GCC may perform additional optimisations based on the knowledge it doesn't return"
18:23:50 <AnMaster> iirc one effect of this, is that all code after it is considered dead.
18:25:45 <ehird> It occurs to me that Slackware is not especially conductive to Slack.
18:25:58 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you mean?
18:26:11 <ehird> SubGenius that begat Slackware.
18:26:35 <AnMaster> beget - make children; "Abraham begot Isaac"; "Men often father children but don't recognize them"
18:26:36 <AnMaster> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
18:26:37 <AnMaster> what
18:26:51 <AnMaster> ehird, ^
18:26:57 <ehird> jfgi
18:27:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I googled it... define:begat
18:27:13 <ehird> ........
18:28:31 <ehird> __attribute__((constructor)) static void init() {
18:28:33 <ehird> .so = object?
18:28:34 <ehird> I think yes.
18:28:56 <fizzie> You can say "begat" too; "beget, v. Past tense begot, arch. begat." (OED)
18:29:08 <ehird> I said begat originally.
18:29:26 <ehird> C needs a ++ but for =.
18:29:29 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, you're so archaic.
18:29:44 <ehird> if (inited =, 1);
18:29:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, define:begat gave me definition of beget.
18:29:50 <AnMaster> *shrug*
18:29:51 <ehird> erm
18:29:57 <ehird> if (!(inited =, 1)) return;
18:29:58 <ehird> which is
18:30:13 <ehird> if (!inited) {inited=1;return;};inited=1;/*dead code, can be removed*/
18:30:23 <ehird> Well, more likely ,=
18:30:24 <AnMaster> ehird, =, ?
18:30:29 <AnMaster> or ,=
18:30:36 <ehird> <ehird> C needs a ++ but for =.
18:30:39 <ehird> See my example.
18:30:43 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
18:30:46 <AnMaster> ok
18:30:50 <ehird> It's confusing but fun!
18:30:52 <ehird> Actually in this case,
18:30:57 <ehird> if (!(inited++)) return;
18:30:58 <ehird> would work
18:30:59 <ehird> but that's just evil
18:31:07 <ehird> Well
18:31:09 <ehird> It'd only work INT_MAX times or so
18:31:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I need context to figure it out
18:31:26 <ehird> eh?
18:31:36 <AnMaster> ehird, and why would the constructor be called more than once?
18:31:53 <ehird> Dunno. Anagolf does it, so.
18:32:02 <ehird> LD_PRELOAD works in Mysterious Ways(TM).
18:32:18 * ehird hopes typeof(strlen) libc_strlen; works
18:32:39 <AnMaster> GCC docs say:
18:32:40 <AnMaster> You may provide an optional integer priority to control the order in which constructor and destructor functions are run. A constructor with a smaller priority number runs before a constructor with a larger priority number; the opposite relationship holds for destructors.
18:33:47 <ehird> sandbox.c:14: error: lvalue required as left operand of assignment
18:33:47 <AnMaster> ehird, about _exit(), it is a builtin
18:33:49 <AnMaster> so not odd
18:33:54 <ehird> But typeof(strlen) libc_strlen; doesn't die.
18:33:59 <ehird> How strange.
18:34:10 <ehird> Oh.
18:34:11 <AnMaster> ehird, err...?
18:34:15 <ehird> I guess it defines libc_strlen as a function, not a funptr.
18:34:25 <ehird> typeof(strlen) *libc_strlen; works splendidly.
18:34:36 <AnMaster> ouch
18:34:41 <ehird> What?
18:34:47 <ehird> Beats writing out the type for one libc.
18:35:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I think going the kernel module path may be less messy
18:35:27 <ehird> http://pastie.org/623695.txt?key=lmfjxbqaw8t5txpf70z05a
18:35:30 <ehird> How's that messy at all?
18:35:30 <AnMaster> ehird, also strlen isn't called directly all the time. Depending on options it could call a special _chk version instead
18:35:35 <ehird> In fact, it looks positively simple to me.
18:35:52 <ehird> Anyway, I'd like results now and stuff, so this is the route for now.
18:36:00 <AnMaster> wait no, not for strlen iirc
18:36:12 <AnMaster> but for stuff like memcpu or sprintf or snprintf yes
18:36:27 <coppro> why all the messiness?
18:36:28 <ehird> Well, +1 and -1 don't change ls at all, which is odd.
18:36:32 <ehird> coppro: What's messy about the pastie?
18:36:40 <ehird> It's simple and direct.
18:36:43 <fizzie> GCC-compiled binaries would probably use the builtin strlen too?
18:36:53 <ehird> fizzie: Yeah.
18:36:58 <AnMaster> ehird, try on ubuntu: nm -D /bin/* | grep chk | sort -n
18:37:02 <ehird> I'll hijack... something...
18:37:03 <AnMaster> see what I mean
18:37:05 <coppro> ehird: why not just use strlen, though
18:37:09 <ehird> coppro: LD_PRELOAD, dude
18:37:17 <ehird> Note the -1
18:37:20 <ehird> I'm fucking with preloads
18:37:25 <coppro> oh
18:37:27 <AnMaster> ehird, does ls call strlen?
18:37:29 <ehird> The dlsym stuff is how to access the libc strlen to use
18:37:35 <ehird> AnMaster: The gcc one, jesus christ shut up
18:37:37 <AnMaster> hm it does
18:37:41 <AnMaster> says nm
18:37:48 <ehird> Not in this code path, evidently
18:37:48 <AnMaster> ehird, nm says it calls libc one though
18:37:52 <AnMaster> well ok
18:38:06 <ehird> Ooh!
18:38:12 <ehird> I'll make... something... reverse the string.
18:38:14 <fizzie> The earlier part makes you wonder what sort of bytes the libc_strlen symbol will end up pointing at after a "typeof(strlen) libc_strlen;" -- I guess it must be an uninitialized function.
18:38:25 <ehird> fizzie: typeof(strlen) *libc_strlen; now.
18:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird: ltrace /bin/ls 2>&1 | grep strlen
18:38:28 <ehird> So it's just a regular ol' funptr.
18:38:31 <AnMaster> it shows it does strlen
18:38:34 <fizzie> Yes, now, but earlier.
18:38:37 <AnMaster> for each entry here
18:38:45 <ehird> fizzie: Well, it'd error out if you didn't define it later, obviously.
18:38:47 <ehird> I guess.
18:38:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so it should affect stuff
18:39:13 <ehird> Indeed.
18:39:17 <ehird> "return 1;" makes it break.
18:39:27 <ehird> I guess it's just allocating memory, and -1 doesn't run into a boundary.
18:39:33 <ehird> So it escapes just in time.
18:39:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it just uses it for figuring out width of columns
18:39:46 <ehird> Yet,
18:39:46 <ehird> size_t strlen(const char *s)
18:39:47 <ehird> {
18:39:47 <ehird> return libc_strlen(s) * 2;
18:39:47 <ehird> }
18:39:48 <ehird> Segfaults too.
18:39:54 <AnMaster> huh
18:40:12 <ehird> Constant factors seem to work >_x
18:40:14 * ehird puts a printf in dar
18:40:31 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe because sometimes strlen is inlined, and sometimes not, and that messes up stuff when they disagree
18:40:47 <ehird> Hmm, there isn't a handy strrev() is there
18:40:55 <ehird> strfry() will do!
18:41:03 <ehird> size_t strlen(const char *s)
18:41:03 <ehird> {
18:41:03 <ehird> strfry(s);
18:41:03 <ehird> return libc_strlen(s);
18:41:03 <ehird> }
18:41:04 * ehird cackles
18:41:16 <AnMaster> ehird, that should give the same length
18:41:21 <coppro> try size_t n = libc_strlen(s); return n ? n - 1 : n;
18:41:22 <ehird> Yes, but it modifies the pointer.
18:41:30 <AnMaster> oh true
18:41:31 <ehird> So every time you strlen(), bam! Anagrammed underneath you.
18:41:36 <ehird> I flagrantly violate my const promise.
18:41:51 <ehird> Segfault. How *boring*.
18:41:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just going to point out that
18:41:57 <ehird> Oh, constant strings, clearly.
18:42:01 <ehird> What to do, what to do.
18:42:16 <ehird> coppro: sure
18:42:20 <ehird> but -1 works
18:42:21 <ehird> and +1
18:42:26 <ehird> and +3
18:42:35 <fizzie> If you just want a quick-and-dirty fix, you could mprotect the read-onlyness away. :p
18:42:48 <fizzie> "On Linux it is always permissible to call mprotect() on any address in a process's address space."
18:42:48 <ehird> fizzie: In a constant string?
18:42:49 <ehird> Sweet.
18:42:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, that depends. If it is on an mmaped page where you don
18:42:59 <AnMaster> don't* have write access to the underlying file
18:43:05 <AnMaster> I think things may not wrok
18:43:07 <AnMaster> work*
18:43:11 <AnMaster> not completely sure though
18:43:30 <AnMaster> ERRORS
18:43:30 <AnMaster> EACCES The memory cannot be given the specified access. This can happen, for example, if you mmap(2) a file to which you have read-only access,
18:43:30 <AnMaster> then ask mprotect() to mark it PROT_WRITE.
18:43:33 <AnMaster> yeah
18:43:40 <fizzie> That doesn't sound very likely to happen, though.
18:43:43 <ehird> ls: invalid argument `oatu' for `--color'
18:43:43 <ehird> :-D
18:44:01 <coppro> you're truly evil ehird
18:44:17 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:44:20 <ehird> This evil:
18:44:20 <ehird> size_t strlen(const char *s)
18:44:20 <ehird> {
18:44:20 <ehird> size_t length = libc_strlen(s);
18:44:20 <ehird> mprotect(s, length, PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE);
18:44:20 <ehird> strfry(s);
18:44:22 <ehird> return length;
18:44:24 <ehird> }
18:44:57 <ehird> $ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so ls --color=toua
18:44:57 <ehird> Segmentation fault
18:45:00 <AnMaster> ehird, um, don't you need to round the page size?
18:45:02 <ehird> (after several tries)
18:45:02 <ehird> :(
18:45:11 -!- coppro has joined.
18:45:15 <ehird> Stupid things strlen()ing internal structures :P
18:45:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, you don't; but it will change on page-sized granularity.
18:45:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not surprised that things break when you do that sort of thing
18:45:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
18:46:06 <AnMaster> ehird, try doing something useful and allowed instead?
18:46:07 <ehird> $ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so cat
18:46:07 <ehird> cat: symbol lookup error: ./sandbox.so: undefined symbol: dlsym
18:46:07 <fizzie> Hrm, actually it does say that 'addr' should be page-aligned; it will still affect all pages that contain bytes in the [addr, addr+len-1] range.
18:46:08 <ehird> Well that's a new one.
18:46:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and do check http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Other-Builtins.html for list of functions that are sometimes built in optimised
18:47:04 <ehird> man: symbol lookup error: ./sandbox.so: undefined symbol: dlsym
18:47:06 <ehird> What is up with that.
18:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, forgot to link to ld?
18:47:22 <AnMaster> err
18:47:22 <AnMaster> dl
18:47:24 <ehird> Ah.
18:47:29 <ehird> Wonder why ls does, if it works there.
18:47:39 <AnMaster> ehird, um?
18:47:57 <ehird> It still works with ls.
18:48:02 <ehird> Without -ldl
18:48:04 <AnMaster> hm
18:48:10 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe ls uses it anyway
18:48:11 <AnMaster> ?
18:48:20 <AnMaster> yep
18:48:22 <ehird> Yeah, but why?
18:48:23 <AnMaster> ldd agrees
18:48:28 <AnMaster> ehird, ltrace it
18:48:31 <ehird> meh
18:48:44 <AnMaster> not used in normal code path
18:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, my best guess is some other library pulls it in, maybe the libselinux one on ubuntu
18:49:05 <AnMaster> or whatever
18:50:12 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I can't find what it uses from libdl. Hm
18:50:46 <AnMaster> oh indeed, libselinux pulls it in
18:50:49 <AnMaster> ehird, there, explained
18:51:46 <ehird> size_t strftime(char *s, size_t max, const char *format, const struct tm *tm)
18:51:46 <ehird> {
18:51:46 <ehird> strcpy(s, "Bork bork bork!");
18:51:46 <ehird> return max;
18:51:46 <ehird> }
18:52:09 <AnMaster> ehird, issue, you don't check if s is long enough
18:52:15 <ehird> It probably is :-P
18:52:34 <coppro> so why are you trying to screw with library functions, ehird?
18:52:37 <fizzie> ehid, issue, you're writing "Bork bork bork" instead of the formatted time tm.
18:52:37 <ehird> $ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so sh
18:52:38 <ehird> $ date
18:52:38 <ehird> ork bork bork![GARBAGE]
18:52:43 <AnMaster> ehird, strncpy(s, "whatever", max);
18:52:46 <ehird> ork bork bork![MORE GARBAGE]
18:52:49 <ehird> 20 18:52:24 BST 2009
18:52:51 <ehird> Impressive.
18:53:04 <ehird> strcpy writes no \0, does it? :P
18:53:13 <coppro> apparently not
18:53:20 <ehird> coppro: My all-encompassing full-system sandboxing solution to become Linux distro.
18:53:20 <AnMaster> ehird, it does.
18:53:25 <fizzie> It should.
18:53:25 <AnMaster> says man page
18:53:34 <ehird> <fizzie> ehid, issue, you're writing "Bork bork bork" instead of the formatted time tm.
18:53:36 <ehird> made me laugh btw.
18:53:39 <AnMaster> ehird, strncpy might not if buffer isn't large enough
18:53:56 <AnMaster> heh yeah
18:53:58 <ehird> Oh
18:53:59 <ehird> I return max;
18:54:03 <ehird> So it prints up to max
18:54:04 <ehird> Heh
18:54:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I fail to see how this is actually getting you anywhere yet
18:54:35 <ehird> Fun.
18:54:38 <AnMaster> I mean, sure, now you figured out how
18:54:43 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:54:47 <AnMaster> but then, why not get started on the actual hard stuff
18:54:48 <ehird> $ date
18:54:48 <ehird> ork bork bork! ork bork bork! 20 18:54:39 BST 2009
18:54:50 <ehird> How confusing.
18:54:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Because this is amusing?
18:55:00 <ehird> I have to think about the logistics before coding that stuff.
18:55:01 <AnMaster> ehird, where does the last part come from?
18:55:07 <AnMaster> and what happened to the first b
18:55:10 <ehird> No idea. Maybe it formats its own date.
18:55:11 <ehird> And no idea.
18:55:47 -!- coppro has joined.
18:56:55 <fizzie> I'm guessing it does all the numeric formats by itself, and uses strcpy for the strings; it should say something like "Sun Sep 20 .." there.
18:57:08 <fizzie> Er, strftime, not strcpy.
18:57:13 <fizzie> Well, it uses strcpy now!
18:57:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, doing it that way is pretty wtfy though
18:57:33 <ehird> Still, why the chop off thing?
18:57:48 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe it adds some guard thing first in the format and then removes it
18:57:49 <fizzie> I'm guessing they want date to support all those GNUisms even on systems where the library strftime doesn't.
18:57:50 <AnMaster> check the source
18:58:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't justify not just using the system one on systems where it *does* exist
18:58:18 <ehird> Well, overriding strftime was boring.
18:58:41 <pikhq> Strftime? Stir-fry time?
18:58:59 <fizzie> String-format time.
18:59:01 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if you want to run as normal user and still prevent accessing random files as that user unless the user accepted it, then you need to do something about system calls.
18:59:02 <fizzie> I would guess.
18:59:09 <AnMaster> alternatively do like that thing EgoBot uses
18:59:23 <AnMaster> with empty chroot and dynamically created UID
18:59:50 <ehird> No.
18:59:53 <ehird> Running under another user.
19:00:02 <ehird> Maybe chroot.
19:00:05 <AnMaster> ehird, then you need a suid wrapper to let you change your UID
19:00:12 <AnMaster> somewhere
19:00:13 <ehird> Can you stop teaching me how to program? Kthx.
19:00:33 <AnMaster> ehird, not doing that, just teaching you linuxism that you seem to be wondering about earlier today
19:00:46 <ehird> That was answered tho
19:00:52 <ehird> Gruh, compiz frozen again
19:01:27 <ehird> http://fixthis.com
19:01:33 <AnMaster> ehird, try metacity. System -> Preferences -> Apperence, last tab
19:01:44 <AnMaster> select the no effects option
19:01:49 <AnMaster> switches to metacity
19:01:57 <coppro> ehird: I thought you used some random tiling window manager
19:01:59 <ehird> Uh, firstly, I had this problem with Metacity too.
19:02:05 <AnMaster> ehird, oh ok
19:02:08 <ehird> I think
19:02:11 <ehird> Secondly, I can't even click windows..
19:02:15 <ehird> s/\.{2}/./
19:02:17 <ehird> So I can't do that.
19:02:23 <ehird> coppro: I did, but then that installation was all bleh.
19:02:31 <ehird> That was for like a day, mind you.
19:02:40 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you reproduce that issue
19:02:44 <coppro> Alt-F2 is your friend
19:02:47 <ehird> What, bleh?
19:02:59 <AnMaster> coppro, Ctrl-Alt-F2 under X iirc
19:03:16 <coppro> no, Alt-F2
19:03:19 <ehird> Opening appearance preferences unbroked it. Hi ho!
19:03:34 <AnMaster> ehird, XD
19:03:36 <ehird> Now it's broke again XD
19:03:39 <ehird> Alt-F2 again
19:03:43 <coppro> lol
19:03:50 <AnMaster> ehird, so open that and change to damn metacity
19:03:51 <ehird> ooh, except I can't type in alt-f2 this time
19:03:58 <coppro> lol
19:03:58 <ehird> now I can!
19:04:01 <ehird> AnMaster: I like compiz kthx
19:04:16 <ehird> Oops, now I can't click control center icons.
19:05:25 <coppro> just run compiz --replace
19:05:26 <ehird> Compiz deactivated! Failure ever-present!
19:05:46 <Deewiant> "Failure ever-present" sounds like an awesome error message
19:05:52 <ehird> :D
19:06:21 <Deewiant> It's kind of like "the impossible happened" but in the other direction
19:07:22 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:07:23 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X?
19:07:38 -!- ehird has joined.
19:07:40 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X?
19:08:03 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:08:09 <AnMaster> ...
19:08:28 -!- ehird has joined.
19:08:33 <AnMaster> ehird, wb
19:08:44 <AnMaster> and did you see what I said last time?
19:08:49 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X?
19:09:12 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from ehird: 7.54 second(s)
19:09:13 <AnMaster> hm
19:09:34 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:09:43 -!- Asztal has joined.
19:10:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, coppro: probability of ehird having broken something important?
19:10:57 <coppro> 41%
19:11:09 <Deewiant> 94.1%
19:11:24 <AnMaster> my guess would be closer to Deewiant's
19:11:45 <coppro> could be he's just running something which doesn't work well
19:11:51 <coppro> like Java applets do here :/
19:11:57 -!- ehird has joined.
19:12:03 <ehird> Rebooted, said "meh".
19:12:12 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
19:12:18 <ehird> Yah.
19:12:20 <coppro> they work fine for a while, then memory usage shoots up and I need to kill firefox
19:12:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> and did you see what I said last time?
19:12:21 <ehird> Just a weird-ass glitch.
19:12:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X?
19:12:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Stop answering that question. If Ianswer it it'll involve me being annoyed.
19:12:34 <ehird> erm
19:12:35 <ehird> asking
19:12:36 <AnMaster> coppro, I need to killall java
19:12:36 <ehird> I answer
19:12:38 <AnMaster> instead
19:12:45 <ehird> I agree wrt killing all Java.
19:12:49 <AnMaster> when working with my uni's web thingy
19:12:52 <ehird> That is a very good idea.
19:13:06 <coppro> AnMaster: eh. Firefox dies anyway if I kill Java
19:13:14 <AnMaster> coppro, didn't happen here
19:14:35 <AnMaster> coppro, also that web thingy likes to pop up dialogs saying stuff like: "are you sure you want to run this java thingy, unable to check signature due to missing root <blah blah>".
19:14:50 <ehird> So, Linux todo to be happy: Nice IRC client integrating with Gnome and Ubuntu's whole messaging thing.
19:14:54 <AnMaster> I answer no, and it still works
19:14:59 <ehird> Linux todo to be really happy: Sandboxing. Package manager. Distro.
19:14:59 <AnMaster> as long as I kill java afterwards
19:15:12 <ehird> <ehird> I agree wrt killing all Java. ;; someone appreciate this
19:15:30 <AnMaster> ehird, saw it, didn't see anything to comment about it
19:15:36 <ehird> It's a joke.
19:16:20 <AnMaster> ehird, On slashdot it would possibly have been moded "insightful"
19:16:25 <AnMaster> or whatever the term is
19:16:30 <ehird> It's a JOKE.
19:16:42 <AnMaster> so was mine.
19:18:34 <AnMaster> from gcc docs. "[...] Note, This feature is currently sorried out for Windows targets trying to "
19:18:38 <AnMaster> yep it ends there
19:18:41 <AnMaster> doesn't make any sense
19:18:49 <AnMaster> and what is "sorried"?
19:19:10 <AnMaster> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Function-Attributes.html (see "ms_abi/sysv_abi" section)
19:19:32 <coppro> sortedD?
19:19:34 <coppro> -D
19:19:50 <AnMaster> coppro, possibly, but what are they trying to
19:20:38 <fizzie> Just trying in general.
19:20:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, err you mean: Just trying to in general
19:21:00 <ehird> No, they're trying to.
19:21:23 <ehird> But you must note that the feature is sorried out on Windows.
19:21:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes duh of course, why didn't I think of that, it's obvious!
19:21:25 <ehird> At least for now.
19:23:05 <ehird> "Quarterly, I azure, an alien head affronts; II sable, a saltire gules of bacon; III sable, an envelope orangegules; IV azure, a look_of_disapproval at gaze; supported by narwhals combatant. Motto: "reddit", between an upvote gules and downvote azure in pale."
19:23:08 <ehird> "orangegules"
19:23:22 <ehird> (Note: ^ should probably be in #reddit but that channel sucks and everyone there will have seen it.)
19:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, where is that from
19:23:25 <ehird> Reddit.
19:23:35 <AnMaster> ehird, a comment?
19:23:41 <ehird> No, a unicorn.
19:23:46 <AnMaster> ...
19:24:09 <AnMaster> ehird, it could be a comment or the original thread starting or a user profile for all I knew
19:24:26 <ehird> The thread starters are just comments, essentially. Also, reddit is a link site, dammit.
19:25:33 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but I didn't know what to call the thing that is the link itself
19:25:44 <AnMaster> thus "thread starting"
19:26:09 <ehird> OP.
19:26:20 <AnMaster> OPeration?
19:27:37 <ehird> Original Post.
19:27:45 <ehird> Or Poster.
19:27:57 <AnMaster> ah
19:28:11 <AnMaster> so: OP a) Original Post b) Or Poster
19:28:13 <AnMaster> ;P
19:28:22 <AnMaster> the second one fits the acronym too after all
19:28:46 <AnMaster> (yes right I know what you meant, but...)
19:29:13 <ehird> gmail needs a "go to first unread message" shortcut
19:29:36 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> so: OP a) Original Post b) Or Poster ;; someone appreciate this
19:29:39 <AnMaster> :P
19:30:00 <ehird> no, it sucks
19:30:06 <AnMaster> ehird, so did your joke
19:30:26 <AnMaster> bbiab
19:42:35 <ehird> what's the apt-cache command to list files in a pkg?
19:43:40 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me if you find out
19:43:45 <AnMaster> I wondered too
19:44:12 <fizzie> If you want the files of an installed package, that's "dpkg-query -L foo"; I'm not sure if the apt cache contains the file lists of random packages.
19:44:36 <ehird> thx
19:44:52 <ehird> erm
19:44:59 <ehird> and what's the command to find which package has a file :D
19:45:12 <fizzie> "dpkg-query -S file" as long as file is installed.
19:45:30 <ehird> ...and what's the file ><
19:45:32 <ehird> *>_<
19:45:43 <fizzie> The path name you're looking for.
19:45:49 <ehird> I know, I just don't know what it is :D
19:46:11 <fizzie> Well, I can't really help you there, I have no clue what you're looking for.
19:46:15 <ehird> :D
19:46:41 <ehird> Basically, I'm trying to find the binary of the application browser that comes up when clicking More Applications in SUSE's "SLAB" Gnome menu.
19:46:44 <fizzie> Is it... /usr/share/libthai/thbrk.tri?
19:46:48 <ehird> (Also available for other distros.)
19:46:48 <AnMaster> ehird, apt-file can find in non-installed apps iirc
19:46:52 <fizzie> (Just a guess.)
19:46:52 <ehird> fizzie: Alas, no.
19:46:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, why that
19:47:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Who can say?
19:47:15 <fizzie> Not I, certainly.
19:47:19 <AnMaster> ehird, also suse? apt?
19:47:27 <ehird> <ehird> (Also available for other distros.)
19:47:34 <ehird> AnMaster pro reader 09.
19:47:36 <AnMaster> ah
19:47:58 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it is pro reader 1x, they couldn't get the paper work done in time
19:50:16 <fizzie> The gnome-main-menu package has something called "application-browser", but it might be different.
19:50:33 <ehird> Ain't no binary here.
19:51:00 <fizzie> If it's the same thing, it puts the binary into /usr/lib/gnome-main-menu/application-browser possibly.
19:51:14 <ehird> yay
19:51:14 <ehird> sit
19:51:15 <fizzie> Don't know, don't have installed that.
19:51:24 <ehird> Don't have installed that!
19:55:52 <fizzie> Finnish has a reasonably flexible word order; "en ole asentanut sitä" would I guess be the standard form, but "en ole sitä asentanut" and "sitä en ole asentanut" and "asentanut en sitä ole" all don't sound *so* out-of-place, and have unambiguously the same meaning, albeit with a bit different emphasis.
19:55:55 * ehird attempts to think of a less crappy way to authorise files than hooking into the gtk and qt file choosers to allow any file selected through them
19:55:58 <ehird> because that totally breaks cli apps
19:56:55 <AnMaster> ehird, use an ncurses GUI. But that also break cli apps
19:57:11 <AnMaster> and hm. most other things I can think of break cli apps
19:57:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what about using a server process that could ask the user in whatever way the user preferred?
19:57:50 <AnMaster> that would be sort of GUI/CLI/whatever server
19:58:18 <ehird> the fact is that awesome-unzipper foo.zip -> ALLOW FILE HURR? ALLOW FILE DURR? ALLOW FILE I AM UBUNTU'S VISTA UAC AND MAY I SUCK YOUR COCK? is basically unacceptable
19:58:29 <ehird> not least for the unpleasant homoerotic undertones. well. overtones.
19:58:35 <ehird> so i need to be clever about this
19:58:52 <ehird> I'm thinking maybe a staging area for a home directory, then it all gets put in one directory if it isn't already
19:58:58 <ehird> how to name it is the question, and besides that might still suck
19:59:00 <ehird> hmm
19:59:05 <AnMaster> ehird, heuristics will only take you so far
19:59:13 <ehird> but if we put it in a staging area and disallow file conflicts, then that would stop it shitting over the rest of home
19:59:21 <ehird> even if we don't directory it up
19:59:21 <ehird> cool
19:59:35 <AnMaster> ehird, that will work for unzipper, but what about editor?
19:59:38 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not heuristics so much as predefined things for default applications
19:59:51 <ehird> Also, editors are passed that file by CLI or file chooser, so they get it
20:00:01 <ehird> i.e., if a program can access a file, and saves to it, they can overwrite it
20:00:05 <ehird> (with backup, prolly)
20:01:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what about opening inside an app like emacs that uses the mode line + tab complete?
20:01:13 <AnMaster> that won't work for file chooser
20:01:19 <ehird> So we patch emacs.
20:01:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so apps won't run out of box?
20:01:31 <ehird> It beats forcing a total rewrite of every application, i.e. a proper system for this.
20:01:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Sure they will, they'll just nag you every time you try and use files.
20:02:04 <ehird> Of course, this is non-ideal; so naturally I'm trying to think of better ways to make this Work.
20:02:39 <ehird> IBM or HP or someone had a sandboxing system like this for Windows. It was easier since Windows has pretty much one file picker.
20:02:54 <ehird> I don't recall the name. I think Sgeo mentioned it first.
20:03:24 * coppro is confused as to ehird's goal
20:04:19 <ehird> Run untrusted applications and not worry! It's like a MAGICAL CONDOM for your LINUX... um... genitals? Bad analogy. It's like a MAGICAL SANDBOXING CAPABILITY-BASED SECURITY SYSTEM for your LINUX OPERATING SYSTEM.
20:04:31 <ehird> Be guarded against flawed applications! ...To a degree!
20:04:33 <coppro> oh
20:04:49 <ehird> Fits in nicely with the per-user, multi-version, separated-namespace, purely-functional package manager!
20:05:01 <ehird> Also, untrusted applications = all applications.
20:05:05 <ehird> Every user process runs under this thing.
20:05:26 <ehird> So, uh, overhead is a bit bad.
20:05:33 <AnMaster> hm this sounds familiar
20:05:38 <coppro> yeah
20:06:09 <AnMaster> I remember some app to do basically that for GUI apps. Worked with firefox iirc
20:06:11 -!- Pthing has joined.
20:06:12 <AnMaster> no I don't remember name
20:07:00 <ehird> I think SELinux does a sort of similar thing with the capabilities, and solves the application problem by writing gigantic lists of rules for every app.
20:07:00 <coppro> ptrace?
20:07:10 <ehird> But mine is like 10x less sucky, so.
20:07:16 <AnMaster> coppro, that is just a API for it
20:07:20 <coppro> There's AppArmor too
20:07:22 <AnMaster> ehird, and it wasn't selinux I meant
20:07:25 <AnMaster> nor apparmor
20:07:35 <AnMaster> some research project
20:07:37 <ehird> AppArmor requires patching to apps, doesn't it?
20:07:39 <AnMaster> probably *.edu
20:07:42 <ehird> Anyway, I don't just want this to be for apps.
20:07:46 <ehird> sed, awk, ls, cat, all run under it.
20:07:51 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it hooks into same place as selinux
20:08:22 <AnMaster> ehird, all the widely used ones are kernel based. I think LD_PRELOAD is just the wrong way to go
20:08:31 <ehird> FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME
20:08:34 <AnMaster> well, not sure about the ask user gui thing
20:08:40 <ehird> I HAVE SAID THIS BEFORE
20:08:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't see what you gain then...
20:09:06 <AnMaster> i mean, you would have to rewrite it in a completely different way in the kernel
20:09:11 <coppro> also, ehird, your solution being better requires it to exist
20:09:31 <ehird> coppro: the seconds I spend replying to AnMaster being stupid are seconds I don't spend making it exist in the future.
20:09:57 <ehird> but the fact is that no system does anything near what my aim is, and if it does it almost certainly can't be applied in the way I'd like to
20:10:00 <AnMaster> ehird, now, I'm not. I'm just saying that doing it in kernel and doing it in userspace means completely different implementations
20:10:26 <ehird> ...no shit?
20:11:01 <AnMaster> ehird, so I'm suggesting that doing it with LD_PRELOAD will be wasted effort since you won't be able to reuse much of it in kernel later.
20:11:40 <ehird> I am not writing the full system with LD_PRELOAD. Now if you would kindly do what I asked and shut. the. fuck. up. about. LD_PRELOAD. that would be appreciated, as it's constituted about half your lines about this project for hours.
20:12:13 <AnMaster> that isn't true, I helped you with it above...
20:13:14 <ehird> Yes, because half = all.
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20:13:34 <AnMaster> ehird, much more than half was help
20:13:49 <ehird> One day, AnMaster will understand hyperbole.*
20:13:50 * coppro votes ehird stfu
20:13:51 <ehird> *lie
20:16:34 <AnMaster> ehird, exaggeration you mean
20:16:38 <ehird> ...
20:16:44 <ehird> Go look up "hyperbole".
20:16:58 <AnMaster> ...
20:17:03 <AnMaster> that joke was so wasted on you
20:17:32 <AnMaster> coppro, agreed*
20:17:43 <AnMaster> *in general, not just atm
20:18:09 <AnMaster> ** Only in the context of ehird shutting up.
20:18:40 <ehird> You know, there's a command for making me stfu in general.
20:18:53 <coppro> yes, but you sometimes have useful things to say
20:19:00 <coppro> btw, jokes lost on ehird are awesome
20:19:16 <AnMaster> coppro, well in general the jokes ehird doesn't understand are the best
20:19:37 <ehird> have fun with your hur hur ehird is so stupid circlejerk, guys
20:19:38 -!- ehird has left (?).
20:19:59 <coppro> agreed
20:20:05 <AnMaster> oh my, why isn't ais523 here now. That would have been a lot more fun
20:24:57 <AnMaster> coppro, somehow I guess ehird sees himself as some sort of "best in humour", and thus gets very irritated when he don't get a joke. Especially when I said it (who he considers almost entirely lacking humour).</psychoanalysis or something>
20:25:20 <coppro> AnMaster: the best was when I was making jokes about his immaturity
20:25:33 <AnMaster> coppro oh?
20:25:51 <coppro> he couldn't understand why my jokes about him being young were funny, because he's too young
20:26:01 <AnMaster> XD
20:26:05 <AnMaster> coppro, how long ago was that?
20:26:29 * coppro greps the logs
20:27:23 <coppro> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.09.09 <-- starts around "double entendre"
20:27:50 <AnMaster> argh, has google removed the "view as html" option?
20:28:05 <AnMaster> coppro, oh that recently? Thought it would be more like 2-3 years ago
20:28:35 <coppro> nah, e's stilll pretty young
20:29:07 * AnMaster is searching for the actual double entendre
20:29:43 <AnMaster> coppro, was it you who said the double entendre?
20:30:11 <coppro> AnMaster: no, bsmntbombdood_ did, about 10 lines up
20:30:24 <AnMaster> coppro, ah that explains it, I was looking at your lines only
20:31:22 <AnMaster> coppro, and yes that is pretty clear. In fact it seems more like a "single entendre" (I can only see the dirty meaning to tell the truth)
20:32:17 -!- ehird has joined.
20:32:32 <ehird> I must quit my bad habit of logreading, but please do note, later down:
20:32:33 <ehird> 21:49:17 <bsmntbombdood_> oh snap
20:32:33 <ehird> 21:49:21 <bsmntbombdood_> i didn't even notice that
20:32:50 <ehird> So if you're claiming something to do with age on the part of me, you must also claim it on the person who originally said the damn thing.
20:33:04 <ehird> FWIW, yes of course I got it as soon as I bothered to look at it again.
20:33:11 <AnMaster> ehird, um no? It is quite different if the speaker him/herself doesn't notice it
20:33:18 <coppro> agree with AnMaster
20:33:39 <ehird> AnMaster: amusing then that if you miss a double entrende and I point it out you say I have a dirty mind, a bit of a double-standard there
20:33:46 <AnMaster> 21:57:03 * coppro will be back in 2 or 3 years
20:33:46 <AnMaster> 21:57:27 <ehird> coppro: umm... bye?
20:33:46 <AnMaster> 21:57:34 <ehird> that's a rather anticlimatic exit
20:33:46 <AnMaster> 21:57:50 <coppro> I was making a joke. Lost on you, apparently.
20:33:47 <AnMaster> hehe
20:33:55 <ehird> but whatever, continue your "lol he's so young and naive and did I mention candyfloss" antics
20:34:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I never claimed that *I* didn't have a dirty mind :P
20:34:24 <ehird> I'm sure it must be interesting having nothing better to do and responding to this knowledge with a discussion about how one insignificant person you only know over IRC is young/stupid/whatever
20:34:27 <ehird> ->
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20:35:07 <AnMaster> coppro, hm how old are you btw? 25 or so is my guess
20:38:40 <AnMaster> fuck, it's rainly heavily
20:38:46 * AnMaster looks at forcast for tomorrow
20:39:08 <AnMaster> hm better than what I hoped for, still bad
21:12:17 <FireFly> It isn't raining here atm
21:12:35 <FireFly> Though I believe I read it'll rain here tomorrow and tuesday
21:13:33 <AnMaster> FireFly, different cities will have different weather very often :P
21:13:42 <FireFly> True
21:14:20 <AnMaster> FireFly, btw, funny label on box (unable to translate to English due to not knowing what the hell it is called in English):
21:14:49 <AnMaster> Desinficerande våtservetter \n Med desinfektionsmedel
21:14:59 <FireFly> Oh really?
21:15:05 <AnMaster> FireFly, exactly
21:26:19 <Deewiant> Disinfecting wet serviette \n with disinfectant
21:26:23 <Deewiant> Or something?
21:26:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, something like that
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21:26:45 <AnMaster> not sure if that is what they are called in English
21:26:55 <AnMaster> ("wet serviette" that is)
21:26:58 <Deewiant> It isn't, that's just the literal translation :-P
21:27:04 <Deewiant> (Isn't it?)
21:27:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can't be bothered to look it up.
21:28:06 <AnMaster> Plus everyone active atm seems to be able to understand Swedish more or less
21:28:13 <AnMaster> including you
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21:58:20 <AnMaster> night →
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22:45:51 <ais523> latest news from proggit: someone wrote a command-line application for ordering pizza
22:49:40 <Ilari> Ugh... n: 20000000 avg: 8103009.4666202 max spike: 8.8959992639417e+14 ... That seems just plain too ill-behaved to converge (the expectation of distribution is zero)... :-)
22:50:33 <Ilari> 20M samples and the estimate of expectation isn't even near correct...
22:50:34 <ais523> Ilari: context?
22:51:24 <Ilari> Trying to estimate moments of badly-behaved distributions...
22:51:53 <Ilari> (starting from trying to estimate what's the expectation value is).
22:53:38 <Ilari> And that "max spike" is biggest absolute value seen. As can be seen, peak to average ratio is huge (~10^8).
22:54:34 <ais523> that's badly behaved, all right
22:54:42 <ais523> is it Turing-complete?
22:54:55 <ais523> (there's probably some way to do computation with a distribution)
22:54:57 <Ilari> Distribution: p(x) = k / (abs(x)+1)^1.5 (k is chosen to scale it properly for distribution).
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22:55:59 <Ilari> Odd moments are zero. Even moments (except the zeroth) are infinite.
22:57:41 -!- Cerise has joined.
23:00:21 <Ilari> Heh... Some researchers wired a dead salmon into fMRI machine... :-)
23:01:50 <ais523> why?
23:02:04 <coppro> to show the ease of false positives
23:02:09 <ais523> Cerise: hi, I don't recognise you; what brings you here?
23:04:48 <Ilari> Cerise: You are developing some über-batshit-crazy to the nth power programming language and need some advice? :->
23:05:07 <ais523> n is currently about 6
23:07:36 <Ilari> 6.41... :->
23:08:06 <ais523> clearly I've been slacking
23:10:16 <Cerise> hi! :x
23:11:45 <ais523> sorry #esoteric, I've been slacking for weeks on the esolang side of things
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23:18:08 <FireFly> Hm
23:18:10 <FireFly> Hello, Cerise
23:19:45 <oerjan> <ehird> I AM NOT USING LD_PRELOAD AS A LONG TERM - FUCKING - SOLUTION <-- that's what they all say
23:19:57 <oerjan> and hi Cerise
23:20:42 <fizzie> oerjan: They say that, yes, but then everyone just ends up keeping the LD_PRELOAD in place when having sex anyway.
23:20:55 <oerjan> XD
23:21:05 <oerjan> i mean >_<
23:21:19 <Ilari> Cerise: And esoteric language doesn't have to be über-batshit-insane to 6.41th power... Just being insane (batshit-insane is even better) is enough. :->
23:21:52 <Cerise> o.O
23:22:01 <oerjan> elegance also counts, says i
23:22:06 <ais523> oh, definitely
23:22:15 <ais523> you can't be truly elegant without being slightly insane, though
23:22:21 <ais523> so it fits this channel pretty well
23:23:32 <oerjan> on the other hand if your language heaps feature upon feature rather than being elegant, _then_ it needs to be über-batshit-insane or else it ends up with negative points
23:23:50 <Ilari> Of course, Rube-Goldberg-style Turing Completeness also would be funky.
23:24:53 <Ilari> That is, lots of features that don't fit well together, and manage as combination just barely reach TC.
23:25:26 <oerjan> true, but with a lot of features it is hard to ensure all of them are really needed for TC
23:25:42 -!- MizardX has changed nick to MizardX-.
23:26:09 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
23:30:54 <Ilari> Yeah, that's why its so difficult to design them.
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