00:04:52 <coppro> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091008142957.htm <-- look at the google ads O_o
00:06:06 <Rugxulo> "Biological Data Analysis" ... "Microbial Insights" ... "$89 Home DNA Test"
00:06:11 <Rugxulo> is that what you saw too? (doubt it)
00:06:57 <coppro> no, but I saw similar ones
00:07:13 <coppro> the best one I got was "miRNA array analysis"
00:07:21 <coppro> seems a bit esoteric to be on google ads
00:11:25 -!- dbc has quit (Client Quit).
00:14:49 * coppro doesn't want to do homework :(
00:22:56 <coppro> which together account for 100% of my school subjects :/
00:22:57 <Rugxulo> break it up into bite-sized pieces, perhaps?
00:24:27 <Rugxulo> but esoteric languages are creative
00:24:55 <coppro> but in a different way
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00:25:05 <Warrigal> I'm kind of glad I'm taking only math classes.
00:25:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:25:14 <coppro> This is the school version of creative - e.g. "stuff that isn't what you normally do"
00:25:25 <coppro> Warrigal: I can't wait until Uni :)
00:25:35 <Warrigal> I wanted to take five-ish math classes next semester, but the head of the math department came and told me I shouldn't do that.
00:25:43 <oerjan> biology isn't creative unless you engineer new lifeforms
00:26:02 <Rugxulo> Warrigal, you'd probably burn out with 5+
00:26:33 <oerjan> i'm _still_ waiting for oklopol's great burnout this year
00:26:59 <Warrigal> I burned out this semester with a single non-math class. :-P
00:28:09 <Warrigal> Well, actually a double non-math class.
00:28:39 <coppro> I spend half my day working at a biotech firm, it's awesome :)
00:30:25 <coppro> okay, done the noncreative part of part 1
00:30:34 <Warrigal> coppro: so what are you currenly doing for education?
00:31:22 <Rugxulo> he said "uni", kinda a giveaway ;-)
00:31:39 <Warrigal> Hmm. How does the education system go there?
00:31:56 <coppro> well, and kindergarten, but that doesn't count
00:32:25 <coppro> No province has had 13 for several years
00:32:48 <coppro> Well, except Quebec has the weird CEGEP thing
00:33:08 <coppro> Quebec has 11 years + 2 years CEGEP
00:33:26 <Warrigal> What part of that is high school?
00:34:07 <coppro> oh no, Quebec just has secondary schools, which are 5 years
00:34:21 <coppro> no distinction between junior high/middle school and high school
00:34:51 <Warrigal> I was kind of an expecting an answer along the lines of "one year of kindergarten, eight years of primary school, four years of secondary school (high school), then college/university".
00:35:18 <coppro> one year kindergarten, 6 years elementary, 3 years junior high, 3 years high school in Alberta
00:35:23 <coppro> two years preschool optional
00:37:03 <Warrigal> So pretty much like in the US but with one year of high school removed and added to elementary.
00:37:18 <coppro> Think so, not 100% sure
00:37:27 <Rugxulo> even in the U.S. in some places, 9th is in middle
00:37:29 <coppro> (given that I don't know your system)
00:37:51 <coppro> All I know is that I hope I get accepted to UW
00:38:49 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:39:15 <Warrigal> Hmm, I guess the two systems are actually consistent, then.
00:39:52 -!- coppro has joined.
00:41:17 <coppro> Best math school in the country, and high up there worldwide
00:42:59 <coppro> Only problem is, my transcript doesn't look as good as it should because of stupid options I was forced to take :(
00:43:24 <Rugxulo> transcripts are dishonest anyways (well, mine is)
00:44:03 <Warrigal> I seem to often get the feeling that the school I'm at... kinda sucks.
00:44:21 <Warrigal> Grand Valley State University.
00:44:39 <coppro> but then again, I haven't heard of most US schools except the big ones
00:45:01 <Rugxulo> I've never heard of it either, doesn't mean it's bad
00:45:20 <Rugxulo> although that feeling that one's school sucks is fairly common ;-)
00:46:36 <Warrigal> What I used to think is that the Internet could teach me in minutes what school teaches in weeks.
00:47:55 <Warrigal> Now it seems that while that's more or less true for certain types of declarative knowledge, for procedural knowledge, it's a different story.
00:48:35 <Rugxulo> and yet school isn't exactly a "bargain", either
00:48:54 <Warrigal> Still, though, I feel like my greatest advances in procedural knowledge have come about online.
00:49:37 <coppro> The problem is that the internet, while it has most of the knowledge you may deign to acquire, it generally sucks at explaining it
00:49:42 <Warrigal> I've had two "what the hell am I doing" moments online, and none in school.
00:49:52 <coppro> and you're left to figure out which order to learn things on your own
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00:50:13 <Warrigal> As in "hmm, well, I suppose that if you kind of visualize it like this, you can kind of see that--what the hell am I doing? There's a formula for this"!
00:51:05 <madbrain> dunno.. i think there isn't too much good music theory on the net
00:51:13 <Warrigal> One was when I was trying to figure out a parameter that would make two functions tangent. I took the arctangent of the derivative.
00:51:17 <coppro> madbrain: I said "most", not all
00:51:19 <coppro> The #1 issue with school that helps give that feeling is a lot of knowledge that should be procedural (e.g. math) is treated like it isn't.
00:51:30 <coppro> especially at low levels
00:51:36 <Warrigal> The other was when solving the Diophantine equation x^2 - y^2 = 1817; I didn't realize that the left side could be factored.
00:51:43 <Rugxulo> school = rote memorization and busywork, that's all
00:52:11 <coppro> Rugxulo: see, that's the problem. When it /isn't/ that, it's exciting to learn
00:52:21 <Rugxulo> music theory = only good in as much as you are willing to discard it
00:52:43 <madbrain> rux: ah, but many jobs are rote memorization and busy work
00:52:55 <coppro> e.g. have you ever seen a teacher show the derivation of the quadratic formula?
00:53:10 <Warrigal> I've seen a teacher show the derivation of the quadratic formula.
00:53:25 <Warrigal> I was perplexed by the fact that the other students called the derivation "freaky".
00:53:31 <madbrain> like, I love being creative and all, but now I have to get someone to pay for it and it sounds hard
00:53:46 <coppro> At least they got shown how it works
00:53:49 <madbrain> rux: dunno what to think about music theory...
00:53:54 <Warrigal> It's freaky that when you do this, you get the same answer as when people did it hundreds of years ago? What the *hell* did you expect?
00:54:01 <coppro> It's easier to remember things you understand
00:54:06 <Rugxulo> Charlie Parker: "Learn as much as you can, then forget all that s**t"
00:54:15 <coppro> this is THE problem with math education in North America
00:54:44 <Rugxulo> yes, but they don't have time to let you understand, only time to make you memorize stuff and do lots of busywork
00:54:57 <Rugxulo> gotta cram in so much curriculum
00:55:06 <coppro> They could teach things far quicker if they showed you how to understand
00:55:07 <Rugxulo> must give so many tests, etc.
00:55:14 <pikhq> They have plenty of time.
00:55:18 <Rugxulo> well, then they suck too bad ;-)
00:55:39 <coppro> It's a systemic problem
00:55:40 <Rugxulo> you think Windows 7 really needs 16 GB of HD space?? nope, but they waste it
00:55:42 <madbrain> well, its not the smart mathematicians who teach¸
00:55:53 <pikhq> I don't see why it's unreasonable to get a basic understanding of mathematics in that time.
00:56:05 <coppro> Another great example is fractions
00:56:06 <madbrain> the ones who teach are the ones who know how to deal with kids
00:56:27 <pikhq> Of course, people appear to think that mathematics is merely calculation. So...
00:56:32 <pikhq> madbrain: ... Ah, no.
00:56:45 <Rugxulo> no, the ones who teach are whoever they can get
00:56:58 <Rugxulo> and you don't need lots of experience either
00:57:06 <coppro> pikhq: A symptom of the flawed education
00:57:08 <pikhq> The ones who teach are the ones who know how not to send people to the guillotine.
00:57:14 <pikhq> coppro: Absolutely.
00:57:14 <Rugxulo> my 4th grade teacher's parents were younger than mine (at the time!)
00:58:14 <Rugxulo> (disclosure: my own mother is a math teacher)
00:58:25 <Rugxulo> (not that I ever learned jack from her)
00:59:10 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yet, you program.
00:59:17 <madbrain> dunno, I learned some math (mostly having to do with programming!)... I never figured out how to do integrals though
00:59:21 <Rugxulo> BTW, I think the guillotine was outlawed in 1982 or so in France, so... ;-)
00:59:26 <pikhq> Which... *is mathematics*.
00:59:29 <Warrigal> I wonder why I remembered the number 1817...
01:00:20 <madbrain> still better than the gas chamber
01:00:42 <Warrigal> If I had to choose a method of execution for myself, I'm sure I would choose nitrogen asphyxiation.
01:00:46 <coppro> 1812 was the year of the War of 1812!
01:00:57 <Warrigal> I can't imagine how any method of execution could be more humane.
01:01:57 <Warrigal> I guess execution by natural causes is a pretty humane way to do it. :-)
01:02:24 <Warrigal> The thing about nitrogen asphyxiation is it works like this:
01:02:30 <Warrigal> You put on a mask. You get dizzy. You die.
01:02:42 * pikhq votes execution by bomb -- sitting right next to the one who gave out the death sentence.
01:03:29 <Warrigal> Execution by suicide-brought-on-by-remorse-brought-on-by-murder.
01:07:21 <Rugxulo> (what, never heard of that dish?)
01:07:42 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_Chocolate
01:11:57 -!- ehird has joined.
01:12:04 <ehird> "Finally, every time Psystar turns on any of the Psystar computers running Mac OS X, which it does before shipping each computer, Psystar necessarily makes a separate modified copy of Mac OS X in Random Access Memory, or RAM. This is the third unlawful copy." —Apple
01:12:08 <ehird> Apparently I'm a pirate.
01:13:17 <Rugxulo> sorry, but counting like that is a little bit of a stretch
01:13:36 <ehird> Clearly I was quoting it and calling myself a pirate because I thought it was sane and reasonable.
01:13:40 * Rugxulo hears that latest Ubuntu runs on Intel Macs
01:13:46 <ehird> I wasn't mocking it or anything, nosiree, thanks for the apology.
01:13:53 <ehird> linux has run on intel macs since about 3 seconds after they came out
01:13:55 <Rugxulo> I'm just agreeing, it's a bit isnane
01:13:59 <ehird> *more like a few monthhts
01:14:11 <ehird> well, ok, windows took a bit longer i think
01:14:18 <ehird> Rugxulo: without boot camp.
01:14:24 <ehird> boot camp just partitions and gives you a driver CD
01:14:42 <ehird> there was an EFI upgrade (like BIOS) that let you boot BIOS things from it, you see
01:14:44 <ehird> when boot camp came out
01:14:50 <ehird> people just hacked up their own shit
01:14:53 <ehird> so you could run windows on it
01:15:00 <ehird> linux happened earlier because there is a linux bootloader for efi
01:15:06 <ehird> nobody uses it now though
01:15:39 <Rugxulo> latest Ubuntu has issues with Intel gfx, I hear
01:16:22 <ehird> they're changing everything around. after this intel graphics should be good
01:16:37 <ehird> ubuntu by itself does very little apart from ship unstable things that barely work
01:16:50 <Rugxulo> based upon Debian "testing", from what I've read
01:17:13 <ehird> anyway, you've been able to install rEFIt (EFI bootloader selector thingy, just point-and-click in OS X to install), pop in an ubuntu CD in an intel mac and install it for years now
01:17:28 <Rugxulo> I never hear anybody doing that, though
01:17:43 <ehird> Tons of people do it. I've done it several times and used Ubuntu for a few weeks recently.
01:17:58 <ehird> Case in point: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=328
01:18:05 <ehird> A whole forum of Mac Ubuntu users.
01:19:31 <Rugxulo> "Please join the irc release party in ...", heh
01:19:45 <ehird> PPC is a "community-supported port"
01:19:49 <ehird> Translation: "barely works"
01:21:05 <ehird> I won't be using this machine "sometime soon" anyway; hopefully I'll forget all the crap I needed to get it working.
01:21:06 <Rugxulo> translation: "soon to be obsoleted, even by us!"
01:21:26 <ehird> It's been community-supported (== we won't support it) since 2006, iirc.
01:21:40 <ehird> The population of Mac users that use Ubuntu is small enough; PPC Ubuntu?
01:21:49 <Rugxulo> I hate that about Macs, they brag how great they are then drop them like stones once they are *barely* obsolete
01:22:05 <ehird> PPC was obsolete before 2005
01:22:24 <ehird> G5 was fast, sure... but they still sucked. Especially the heat output.
01:22:36 <ehird> I imagine Apple were trying to jump the PPC ship since before 2004.
01:22:43 <ehird> Rugxulo: in fact, the first Intel machines sent to developers—
01:22:47 <ehird> were pentium 4 Mac Pros
01:22:56 <Rugxulo> but Apple never sold anything before Core 1, right?
01:23:09 <Rugxulo> (even though they'd been testing since 2000)
01:23:19 <ehird> i'm going to go ahead and guess that negotiating with intel is hard
01:23:39 <Rugxulo> Intel made a specific variant of the cpu just for Apple
01:23:50 <Rugxulo> then again, Apple is 100% Intel-only, so I'm not too surprised
01:24:00 <ehird> for hte macbook air
01:24:06 <ehird> It uses a stock CPU nowadays
01:24:19 <ehird> anyway, dropping ppc support from snow leopard saved ~10 GiB and means they can do a bunch of intel optimisations, which is cool. ppc users aree used to everyything being slow and crufty anyway :D
01:24:24 <ehird> *are *everything *fucking keyboard
01:24:45 <Rugxulo> just the idea that a machine still runs perfectly but is obsoleted ... ugh
01:25:53 <ehird> I'm pretty sure you must be in favour of abolishing capitalism in favour of massexcessism, where the more time you waste and neglect things most people actually use, the more money you get.
01:26:14 <ehird> And PPCs don't run perfectly, btw.
01:26:26 <Rugxulo> nothing does, but it doesn't mean it's useless
01:27:21 <ehird> I'd try to explain proper allocation of resources and practicality and all those sane things but I think I've tried that too many times already.
01:29:16 <ehird> Rugxulo: presumably you'll complain that my static-only linux distro sucks because i'll compile it for i686 only, when all the software could work on i386...
01:30:07 <Rugxulo> Linux these days won't run well (if at all) on less than a 686 anyways
01:30:49 <Rugxulo> and honestly, most people don't have older than a 686 anyways
01:31:01 <ehird> Ha, and most people don't have older than an Intel Mac...
01:31:14 <ehird> Anyone who buys a Mac expecting a loooooong product life on the latest stuff is deluding themselves anyway.
01:31:19 <ehird> Rugxulo: yeah, and my $person owns a <686 too
01:31:29 <ehird> you do realise that people use linux on embedded devices, btw?
01:31:32 <Rugxulo> I still have an original P1
01:31:35 <ehird> those are ... rather less powerful than a 686.
01:31:50 <Rugxulo> I'm not saying they don't exist, but especially since nobody seems to care, then it's heavily moot
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01:32:20 <ehird> [01:24] Rugxulo: just the idea that a machine still runs perfectly but is obsoleted ... ugh
01:32:30 <ehird> pretty sure pentium 1s ran pretty "perfectly" if you stayed minimal
01:32:35 <ehird> you're being pretty contradictory here
01:32:48 <ehird> that's linux's fault
01:32:51 <Rugxulo> I can do more in DOS than Linux
01:32:53 <ehird> the CPU ran perfectly, which is the issue at hand
01:32:55 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
01:32:56 <ehird> therefore, linux should support it
01:33:18 <ehird> that's the single-handed dumbest thing you've ever said
01:34:10 <Rugxulo> you only get laughed away trying to do things like that
01:35:23 <ehird> one, probably because you were saying dumb shit and not listening to them; two, i've never had that experience, ever; three, you do realise as a rebuttal to my statement that according to you, the pentium 1 should be supported by linux, this is a complete non-sequitur?
01:35:50 <Rugxulo> Pentium 1 is (barely) supported
01:35:54 <ehird> and finally, four, if ubuntu (that my mother uses!) is elitist, you're crazy
01:36:03 <Rugxulo> most 586s don't support over a certain amount of RAM (e.g. 64 MB)
01:36:44 <Rugxulo> and in reality, much less is installed, and Linux doesn't work very well with low amounts
01:36:54 <Rugxulo> (unless you like mad swapping)
01:37:21 <ehird> i don't think you've ever tried to use linux on a low-end machine. it can handle low RAM just fine.
01:37:31 <ehird> unless you were trying to install ubuntu with gnome or something.
01:38:04 <Rugxulo> it can't handle it well, that's for sure
01:38:16 <Rugxulo> at least not without recompiling everything from scratch, rolling your own, etc.
01:38:40 <Rugxulo> I'm not talking about the very minimal "runs but does nothing" install either
01:39:58 <ehird> seriously, debian runs on everything.
01:40:05 <ehird> debian+busybox runs on everything and a machine.
01:40:48 <Rugxulo> no, Contiki runs on everything :-)
01:41:38 <Rugxulo> x86-64 is a mode, not a chip
01:41:53 <ehird> amd64 is an architecture in itself
01:41:55 <Rugxulo> so it still runs in legacy 32-bit mode
01:42:01 <ehird> it is not the same
01:42:17 <Rugxulo> are there any AMD64 chips that won't run 32-bit or 16-bit? no, so it's moot
01:42:30 <ehird> you're not listening to what i'm saying.
01:42:39 <Rugxulo> because I can't hear you, this is text :-P
01:42:54 <ehird> ooh, please point out we're typing into keyboards again, it's hilarious
01:43:35 <Rugxulo> thiis froom thee guuy whoo caan't stoop tallking aboout hiis keeyboard
01:43:47 <ehird> because it sucks and i need to buy a better one
01:43:53 <Rugxulo> okay, no seriously, I know Debian can run on low end, but it won't be fun, that's for sure
01:44:04 <Rugxulo> the days are long gone where you can comfortably run Linux in less than 128 MB of RAM
01:44:07 <ehird> gimme that p1 and i'll get linux on it
01:44:22 <Rugxulo> to do what exactly? 32 MB just isn't enough to do anything
01:44:32 <Rugxulo> even DSL (or TinyCore) needs 32 MB minimum
01:44:39 <ehird> you are wroooooong
01:44:43 <Rugxulo> so that rules out ever compiling anything
01:44:59 <Rugxulo> unless you go to console only, and even then modern GCC is a hog
01:45:00 <ehird> just because you can't run gcc 4...
01:45:08 <ehird> seriously, you have no idea about this
01:45:18 <Rugxulo> even GCC 3.4.6 would probably be slow (as 3.4.4 with DJGPP isn't really fast)
01:45:42 <ehird> the kernel for instance compiles with gcc 2.
01:46:07 <Rugxulo> it used to *only* compile with GCC 2, but that changed when people finally got tired of that annoyance (although GCC 2 is lightning fast in comparison)
01:46:23 <pikhq> Heck, I'm going to go out and get a Linux system that should run in 32MB of RAM.
01:46:47 <Rugxulo> BasicLinux can run in very low amounts, but it's useless
01:47:09 <ehird> pikhq: as in a computer?
01:47:24 <ehird> http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/linuxjournal/articles/082/8234/8234f3.png
01:47:25 <pikhq> ehird: I don't have said computer any more, sadly.
01:47:26 <ehird> basiclinux is useless?
01:47:37 <ehird> pikhq: ah, you mean a distro or whatever
01:47:45 <pikhq> Trivial to do, really.
01:48:01 <ehird> it seems Rugxulo's definition of useless is runs smoothly on a p1
01:48:07 <ehird> which is an amusingly circular definition.
01:49:03 <Rugxulo> "runs" what, exactly? 'cause kernel + Busybox isn't much functionality, IMHO
01:49:53 <ehird> not like basiclinux runs X11 or anything
01:49:59 <pikhq> That + troff is a nice typesetting system.
01:50:10 <ehird> troff is not a nice typesetting system pikhq.
01:50:11 <pikhq> Well, nice except that it's outclassed by TeX. :P
01:50:25 <pikhq> ehird: I'm mostly referring to the original "official" use of UNIX, there.
01:50:33 <ehird> it's still unreadable
01:50:55 <ehird> troff would be 10x better it you could do \{foo} to mean \n.foo\n
01:51:13 <pikhq> Considering it's competition was not very far removed from the original printing presses, though...
01:52:35 * ehird rewrites a manpage with \{...} out of curiosity
02:03:21 <Rugxulo> BTW, dumb question, but why a.out?
02:03:29 <pikhq> Because ELF is overkill.
02:03:38 <ehird> I think he means why the filename
02:03:44 <Rugxulo> no, I meant for your distro
02:04:00 <ehird> Because ELF was invented to make dynamic linking suck less (and, well, for some debugging stuff).
02:04:06 <ehird> Although really COFF did that too, ELF was just going furtherr.
02:04:13 <ehird> As a.out is simpler and I don't do dynamic linking...
02:04:18 <Rugxulo> DJGPP still uses COFF (as does NT, more or less)
02:04:39 <pikhq> NT uses something closely related to COFF.
02:04:44 <ehird> Still, COFF is even more obscure than a.out for Linux, and has the same disadvantages as ELF.
02:04:51 <Rugxulo> their own weird variant, oddly different
02:05:00 <ehird> Windows uses PE, which is a derivative of COFF.
02:05:13 <ehird> What did they use in 9x, I wonder?
02:05:22 <ehird> "Microsoft migrated to the PE format with the introduction of the Windows NT 3.1 operating system. All later versions of Windows, including Windows 95/98/ME, support the file structure."
02:05:42 <Rugxulo> I suppose they mean Win32s
02:05:46 <ehird> The NE, abbreviation for New Executable, is a 16-bit[1] executable file format that was introduced in Windows 3.x [2], and was also used at a later[dubious – discuss] time in OS/2 and 16-bit Windows. While it was "new" at the time of invention, it is now rare and obsolete, though its usage can still be found by a few select programs.[3] It is backwards compatible with the older DOS MZ format.[1]
02:05:53 <Rugxulo> I don't remember ever seeing PE in Win3x, only NE
02:06:07 <ehird> Someone add NE support to Linux!
02:06:12 <pikhq> PE has an NE/MZ header.
02:06:22 <ehird> Em nemz nemz nemz nemz
02:06:27 <pikhq> ehird: With the new ability to have arbitrary executable formats, not hard at all.
02:06:28 <ehird> Executable nomming.
02:06:40 <pikhq> Just make a userspace NE loader, and register it with the kernel.
02:07:00 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relocatable_Object_Module_Format
02:07:09 <pikhq> The same trick can be done to add PE support to Linux. (with Win32 support happening all magic-like)
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02:07:40 <ehird> Linux+PE+Wine = Oh god kill me now
02:08:11 <pikhq> ehird: It consists just of making the kernel call out to Wine when it sees a PE header.
02:08:30 <pikhq> Just a matter of making an appropriately formatted file in /proc, IIRC.
02:08:54 <pikhq> Not exactly a *great* idea, but nowhere near as crazy as you'd think.
02:09:11 <Rugxulo`> WINE is way more overkill than DOSEMU
02:09:28 <pikhq> WINE does a lot more than DOSEMU.
02:09:42 <pikhq> It implements a complex ABI, rather than just being a vm86 handler.
02:09:58 <pikhq> (and/or a simple 8086 emulator)
02:10:00 <Rugxulo`> DOSEMU on x86-64 emulates all 16-bit instructions
02:10:05 <ehird> Someone gimme some cash to buy a Topre board :(
02:10:29 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
02:10:38 -!- Rugxulo` has changed nick to Rugxulo.
02:11:15 <ehird> Money! To me! In return gratitude. It's an unbeatable deal.
02:11:51 <ehird> Feed my infinite need to buy a $250 keyboard ;_;
02:12:25 <ehird> Nope, but it does have a bunch of switches on the back to remap stuff.
02:12:40 <ehird> well, the controller might be able to run uclinux
02:13:15 <ehird> It doesn't look very fancy at all, really... http://static.benippon.net/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/E/L/ELEC-PD-KB400WN.jpg
02:13:22 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure Linux's support for arbitrary executable formats could be used to implement some compatibility layers (akin to, say, FreeBSD's Linux support)
02:13:35 <ehird> is freebsd's linux support still good these days?
02:13:51 <Rugxulo> should be, last I heard 8.0 would have 2.6 support
02:14:11 <ehird> someone run gnome on top of it :-D
02:14:12 <pikhq> ehird: They're upgrading it from 2.4.2 to 2.6 support, syscall-wise.
02:14:24 <pikhq> But yeah, it seems to be rather good.
02:15:14 <ehird> maybe i should just get a filco with cherry switches to tide me over, they're more like $100 :-P
02:15:27 <ehird> or an uber-cheap TVS Gold or Scorpius M10 for like $50
02:15:36 <ehird> those only haves blues though.
02:17:04 <ehird> should probably switch to colemamk sometime.
02:20:42 <lament> because colemak is a halfway measure between qwerty and dvorak
02:21:00 <ehird> yeah, i thought that too and deewiant said "no it isn't bitch" and i researched it
02:21:02 <lament> rather hard to come up with a legitimate use case for that
02:21:08 <ehird> colemak actually has better statistical properties than dvorak.
02:21:20 <ehird> the numbers don't lie
02:21:39 <Gregor> What should I name my HackBot-alike wiki?
02:21:42 <lament> what statistical properties?
02:21:44 <ehird> for instance finger travel, how much you stray from the home row
02:21:55 <ehird> colemak is simply better than dvorak
02:22:12 <ehird> lament: whatever you say.
02:22:21 <lament> unsubstantiated nonsense
02:22:25 <Rugxulo> HockBat, HackBotter, HackBot++
02:22:28 <ehird> that's nice, troll
02:22:38 <Gregor> ehird: I'm thinking of making a wiki where every node is like a command in HackEgo.
02:22:53 <ehird> Gregor: that's not really a "wiki" is it
02:23:11 <Gregor> How is it not? Anybody can edit any page, the pages just happen to be scripts.
02:23:27 <ehird> So, everything that lets people change it on the internet is now a wiki?
02:23:37 <ehird> Collaborative paint? more like WIKI PAINT
02:23:57 <Gregor> Except this would actually be extremely similar to a wiki, in that there are pages which are editable.
02:24:03 <lament> but the biggest problem with colemak is that it's used exclusively by douchebag
02:24:16 <ehird> lament: Deewiant loves you too
02:24:18 <lament> i've only met one person who used colemak, and he was a douchebag
02:24:37 <lament> well it's not a very popular layout
02:24:42 <ehird> lament: do you use dvorak?
02:24:51 <ehird> funny, you're a douchebag too
02:25:05 <ehird> i will now proceed to discard all the rest of my sample of dvorak users to be on a level playing field
02:25:10 <Rugxulo> http://www.kimgrahamstudios.com/images/troll-15.jpg
02:25:21 <ehird> it's fun having an op that's a troll!
02:25:23 <ehird> lament: aw sorry :(
02:25:25 <lament> i'm not a douchebag. I'm not even a bag!
02:25:36 <ehird> you're not even a tree i don't know what Rugxulo is talkingn about
02:27:35 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:28:54 <ehird> 25-Dec-2006: David Piepgrass: Why QWERTY, And What's Better? (PDF).
02:28:54 <ehird> “All things considered, I believe Colemak is better than Dvorak and the best alternative to QWERTY.”
02:28:54 <ehird> David Piepgrass is the designer of the Asset keyboard layout.
02:28:55 <ehird> According to carpalx, which is the most extensive research on keyboard layouts done so far, Colemak wins over Dvorak and QWERTY in all different typing effort models.
02:28:55 <ehird> According to Andrei Stanescu: "Colemak is quite close to Dvorak. It scores a little bit better in some areas and a bit worse in other areas, and its overall score is usually 2-5% better than that of Dvorak, but it is worse for some texts. So it's slightly better than Dvorak, especially if you take into consideration its other advantages (better position for Backspace and similarity to Qwerty)."
02:29:00 <ehird> —http://colemak.com/Media
02:29:02 <ehird> yes, their media page is biased but that doesn't change the facts. also, http://colemak.com/Ergonomic
02:29:04 <ehird> also see http://colemak.com/Compare to get some statistics for various texts
02:29:06 <ehird> i could go on but i'm lazy
02:30:36 <ehird> anyway I type fast enough on QWERTY, so it's mainly hand strain and comfort that makes me want to switch.
02:30:47 <ehird> (i think slower than i can type, so)
02:31:24 <Rugxulo> BTW, ehird, what main apps will your distro intend to run?
02:32:29 <ehird> window manager http://dwm.suckless.org/, terminal emulator (either urxvt or st (http://st.suckless.org/) or something), command-line toolset, vim, irc client ii (http://tools.suckless.org/ii), browser prolly surf http://surf.suckless.org/... i swear it isn't all suckless software, just the most-used stuff :-P
02:32:40 <ehird> (ignoring infrastructure)
02:32:59 <ehird> (in which case my init, my package manager, xorg, not sure what shell yet (maybe pdksh))
02:33:14 <ehird> Rugxulo: alas tcc can't really compile much worthwhile. besides, it's ELF only
02:33:26 <ehird> gcc for kernel+libc+stuff,
02:33:27 <Rugxulo> but it can run .c as if scripts
02:33:34 <ehird> clang (llvm) for the rest
02:33:38 <ehird> or gcc if absoslutely needed
02:33:43 <ehird> libc is probably newlib
02:33:47 <ehird> or eglibc for shit things that require glibc
02:33:50 <ehird> Rugxulo: no it can't
02:33:54 <ehird> it just compiles them and runs them
02:34:00 <ehird> you can do that with anything. besides, it's useless
02:34:54 <ehird> tcc is cool though... shinhichiro hamaji (anarchy golf owner) contributed 64-bit support to the latest release
02:35:14 <Rugxulo> I know Rob Landrey whined forever that it didn't support 64-bit
02:35:28 <ehird> is that the guy that worked on it?
02:35:35 <ehird> there were other reasons too iirc
02:35:36 <Rugxulo> he forked it a few times, that's all
02:35:48 <ehird> his complaints were mostly complete dormancy.
02:35:53 -!- lament has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Colemak = ban.
02:35:56 <ehird> little option other than to fork
02:35:57 <Rugxulo> well, that and relying on CVS
02:36:01 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
02:36:05 <Rugxulo> which he hates with a passion
02:36:49 <ehird> as does anyone sane.
02:39:27 <pikhq> CVS's use was only excusable when the principle alternative was RCS...
02:42:10 <ehird> let's talk about things not likenable to laughing at a retarded kitten
02:42:53 <ehird> if (argc == 2 && !strcmp(argv[1], "--version")) {
02:42:53 <ehird> puts("This is not GNU sed version 4.0");
02:43:02 <ehird> chopped fof the comment
02:43:05 <ehird> /* Lie to autoconf when it starts asking stupid questions. */
02:43:17 <ehird> *oops *chopped *off
02:45:10 <ehird> 12:10:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't think i have tried to use /list without a channel argument, if that's what you mean. i'm not _that_ stupid :D
02:45:29 <ehird> in fact it only takes a few seconds on freenode
02:45:44 <ehird> there's only 5769 public rooms
02:46:12 <ehird> "[#!/bin/mksh] Welcome to the portable MirBSD Korn Shell discussion channel. For mksh on MirBSD see #mirbsd on Freeforge (http://mirbsd.de/irc) as well; be invited to stay here though. Encoding: UTF-8. English spoken. Wir sprechen Deutsch."
02:46:37 <ehird> "This is the website of the MirBSD™ Korn Shell, an actively developed free implementation of the Korn Shell programming language and a successor to the Public Domain Korn Shell (pdksh)."
02:46:40 <ehird> hope it ain't bloated
02:46:44 <ehird> Rugxulo: pdksh is unmaintained though
02:46:57 <Rugxulo> they also forked JOE (-> JUPP)
02:47:13 <ehird> definitely not gonna ship bash
02:47:42 <Rugxulo> you can do an "--enable-minimal-config" with Bash, if desired
02:47:53 <ehird> eh, much rather have a better shell
02:47:55 <Rugxulo> oh, don't forget Dash (although if you dislike GPL, it probably is)
02:48:01 <ehird> dash will be available for compatibility, probably
02:48:13 <ehird> for shell scripting, rc will be overwhelmingly recommended
02:49:15 <ehird> I'm consdering shipping the Heirloom tools http://heirloom.sourceforge.net/ as the userlaand
02:49:53 <Rugxulo> I don't think rc will run autoconf scripts, so you'll have to use dash or similar
02:50:11 <ehird> no duh, rc is totally different
02:50:21 <ehird> autoconf scripts can be run with pdksh and the like.
02:50:28 <ehird> since they're ridiculously over-portable.
02:50:35 <ehird> which in this case happens to be advantageous for me.
02:50:39 <Rugxulo> I dunno, often they don't get enough testing
02:50:42 <ehird> dash will be an optional install i.e. a package
02:50:50 <ehird> if something breaks, try and fix it, else install dash
02:50:57 <Rugxulo> any reason to avoid GPL (e.g. dietlibc) explicitly?
02:51:12 <ehird> well, one, I don't like GPL, but I have two specific objections to dietlibc being GPL
02:51:23 <ehird> one, the author is a raving loon about it (says it's to stop microsoft stealing it to make windows better)
02:51:31 <ehird> two, it means i can't redistribute non-GPL binaries compiled with it
02:51:36 <ehird> so i simply cannot use it
02:51:43 <ehird> (and yes, this is acknowledged by the author)
02:51:43 <madbrain> yeah, maybe LGPL might be better no?
02:51:47 <ehird> madbrain: aha, in fact
02:51:51 <ehird> uclibc is lgpl and i can't use it either
02:51:54 <ehird> since i statically link
02:51:54 <Rugxulo> non-GPL compatible, maybe, but that's not a huge problem as lots of stuff is GPL anyways
02:51:59 <ehird> i'd have to distribute the unlinked .o
02:52:11 <ehird> (the program's .o)
02:52:16 <ehird> Rugxulo: ha ha ha ha ha ha HA
02:52:28 <ehird> Rugxulo: no, a large amount of non-shit software is non-gpl
02:52:40 <Rugxulo> I know others exist, but GPL is definitely popular
02:52:48 <ehird> for instance all suckless tools, all ported plan 9 tools, ... and a lot of shit software is non-gpl too: xorg, ncurses, ...
02:53:13 <ehird> Rugxulo: let's put it this way — simply by selecting the least crappy software I can, I will be shipping almost no GPL'd code
02:53:29 <ehird> depending on having all the programs I ship be GPL will simply never happen
02:53:37 <ehird> anyway, my first objection stands regardless of anything; he's a loon
02:53:42 <ehird> (in fact he's a rather well-known loon)
02:54:00 <ehird> btw since when is clang gpl.
02:54:14 <ehird> it's bsd just like llvm
02:54:27 <ehird> ...which is why I'm probably going to use it as the main userspace compiler
02:54:29 <pikhq> llvm-gcc is the only GPL thing of LLVM.
02:54:39 <ehird> (will have to write my own a.out support for LLVM; easy enough)
02:54:52 <ehird> you didn't, but i see how to parse it now
02:54:58 <Rugxulo> I'm not denying other licenses exist, but GPL is everywhere (seemingly)
02:55:34 <ehird> thankfully those sane enough to produce decent software are also almost always sane enough to avoid the gpl
02:55:46 <ehird> let's see, what will be gpl'd that i ship... linux and...
02:55:55 <ehird> pretty sure that's it
02:56:01 <Rugxulo> VIM is GPL compatible, but I don't know the exact details
02:56:04 <ehird> (ofc there will be gpl'd packages available, talking about default distribution)
02:56:21 <ehird> ah, okay, linux and vim then
02:56:33 <ehird> — I'd prefer to ship a better vi clone than vim but they all kinda suck
02:56:36 <Rugxulo> Perl is dual licensed, I think (artistic and GPL)
02:56:39 <ehird> at least vim isn't retarded about being traditional
02:56:46 <ehird> i'm looking at you, http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/
02:56:56 <ehird> (by the same guy as the heirloom tools incidentally)
02:57:07 <ehird> elvis is unmaintained and shit, wait, i just addressed all of them :P
02:57:27 <ehird> nvi is basically the same as http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/
02:57:32 <ehird> except nvi is a reimplementation
02:57:41 <Rugxulo> I like VILE, personally, but Elvis is okay too, XVI is a little too spartan
02:57:42 <ehird> and ex-vi is the real deal
02:57:52 <ehird> vile isn't a vi clone anyway
02:58:01 <Rugxulo> no, NVI is a clean-room reimplementation that is 8-bit clean, full undo, tab completion, etc.
02:58:19 <Rugxulo> but VILE does a lot of stuff normal vi does while keeping most "finger feel"
02:59:03 <ehird> maybe I'll just ship plan9port's acme :)))
02:59:19 <ehird> I will ship some 9base tools though, maybe even the whole thing
02:59:37 <pikhq> ehird: Well, it's not surprising that you've got non-GPL'd stuff as the default distribution.
02:59:38 <ehird> (plan9port fork that just has minimal stuff, no plan9 gui tools or whatever; rc, awk, sed, a few plan9 libs etc)
02:59:40 <Rugxulo> (hmmm, can't remember what license)
02:59:51 <ehird> In fact, I might use the libutf included for osme stuff
03:00:01 <ehird> the original, and best, unicode+utf-8 library
03:00:19 <ehird> (first implementation of utf-8, right after they invented it)
03:00:22 <pikhq> Most of the nonsuck out there is pretty much BSD.
03:00:40 <Rugxulo> it comes in all shapes and sizes :-)
03:00:53 <Rugxulo> good and bad stuff exists in everything
03:01:06 <ehird> it takes someone sane to produce software that doesn't suck, or at least sanely insane
03:01:09 <pikhq> (There's GNU stuff that at least functions correctly, and there's old proprietary UNIX stuff that has crazy amounts of buffer overflows)
03:01:11 <ehird> sane people don't use the gpl
03:01:43 <ehird> the mindset someone requires to use the gpl (authoritarian, paranoia, conspiratorial anti-corporatism, ...) is the kind of mindset that produces bad software
03:01:47 <ehird> (especially authoritarianism)
03:01:47 <Rugxulo> even MS (rarely) uses the GPL (for that tiny bit of driver code they wrote recently)
03:01:58 <ehird> Rugxulo: and? MS stuff sucks
03:01:58 <Rugxulo> and most people consider them "most insane of all" !!
03:02:14 <Rugxulo> but 99% of their stuff ain't GPL, so ... how can it suck? ;-)
03:02:15 <ehird> multiple exclamation marks. a sure sign of madness
03:02:28 <ehird> most non-suck isn't GPL != most non-GPL isn't suck
03:02:41 <ehird> come on, that's like a third grader's logical error
03:02:46 <Rugxulo> I know, but you'd think that the company with the most money could hire the best talent, and yet that isn't true either
03:02:55 <ehird> they can and do, ms people are smart
03:02:58 <Rugxulo> and they shun the GPL yet still "suck"
03:03:00 <ehird> it's just that they can't manage them
03:03:20 <ehird> you realise, Rugxulo, that the inventors of unix worked for ms?
03:03:24 <ehird> well some of them at least
03:03:41 <ehird> eh, i forget who it was
03:03:43 <Rugxulo> I know they hired the VMS dude and owned Xenix for a while
03:04:01 <ehird> cutler is a moron who hates unix and spreads fud about it
03:04:27 <ehird> no he doesn't, he loves NT
03:04:39 <ehird> oh, did he change his mind? exciting.
03:04:56 <ehird> anyway, yes, some MS people are smart. the reason they don't have as many is because they manage the smart people terribly
03:05:00 <ehird> so smart people avoid them
03:05:07 <ehird> they're perfectly capable of hiring them
03:05:35 <Rugxulo> he stopped working for them after NT 4.0 (from what I heard)
03:05:48 <Rugxulo> they just kept him quiet about his differences and continued without him
03:06:02 <ehird> what ... he still works at microsoft dude
03:06:05 <Rugxulo> and MS is too keen to advertise instead of actually fixing things
03:06:11 <Rugxulo> no he doesn't, at least not last I heard
03:06:14 <Rugxulo> even Zippo doesn't work there anymore
03:06:23 <ehird> "David Cutler at work on Windows Azure", picture, wikipedia
03:06:24 <ehird> A Community Technology Preview was given to Professional Developers Conference 2008 attendees.[3] This preview is set to expire in the 2nd quarter of 2009.[citation needed]
03:06:37 <ehird> At the 2008 Professional Developers Conference, Microsoft announced Azure Services Platform, a cloud-based operating system which Microsoft is developing. During the conference keynote, Cutler was mentioned as a lead developer on the project, along with Amitabh Srivastava.[3]
03:06:41 <ehird> He was officially involved with the Windows XP Pro 64-bit and Windows Server 2003 SP1 64-bit releases, as well as Windows Vista. He moved to working on Microsoft's Live Platform in August 2006. Dave Cutler was awarded the prestigious status of Technical Fellow at Microsoft.
03:06:55 <ehird> http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/techfellow/Cutler/default.mspx
03:07:09 <Rugxulo> that sounds different from what I read, but what do I know? :-P
03:07:32 <ehird> seems ksh doesn't support tab completion or whatever, begging the question "why use this over rc?"
03:07:51 <ehird> only reason not to use rc is because terminals are dumb and rc only does what it shhould (be a shell)
03:07:53 <pikhq> That's quite awful.
03:08:02 <ehird> so as a hack, use a shitty shell that oversteps its boundaries
03:08:06 <ehird> pikhq: define "that"
03:08:11 <pikhq> No tab completion?
03:09:18 <Rugxulo> I think?? pdksh supports tab completion
03:09:29 <ehird> really cuz i installed it and i see no tabs bein' completed
03:09:34 <Rugxulo> BTW, here's what I read on Wikipedia for Cutler (discussion page, heh, not exactly official):
03:09:36 <ehird> reading the manpage
03:09:36 <Rugxulo> "Cutler 'left' Microsoft in the spring of 1996. Oh yes he's 'officially' on board but that's only because Microsoft don't want to lose his name. Instead they've helped finance Cutler's race car passion. As Cutler himself said of the deal: 'it keeps me from pissing all over them'. By the time of the Denver DC the word was getting out and Microsofties were whispering in panic 'Dave is gone! Dave is gone!' —Preceding unsigned com
03:09:37 <Rugxulo> by 90.5.7.87 (talk • contribs) 20:47, August 31, 2008"
03:09:55 <ehird> conspiracy theories; exciting
03:10:48 <ehird> Interactive Input Line Editing
03:10:48 <ehird> The shell supports three modes of reading command lines from a tty in
03:10:49 <ehird> an interactive session. Which is used is controlled by the emacs,
03:12:35 <ehird> well i can edit line but not tab
03:12:47 <ehird> vi-tabcomplete In vi command line editing, do
03:12:47 <ehird> command / file name completion
03:12:48 <ehird> when tab (^I) is entered in
03:13:01 <Rugxulo> "And sorry but I have first hand information that regardless of where he was officially moved he wasn't there anymore. He got sick and tired of them, did a deal to stay silent, and left. He turns up for dos and MS want his name around but he is definitely out of the picture by the spring of 1996. And that's first hand info - from the former developers on his team right outside the Tribe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90
03:13:01 <Rugxulo> (talk • contribs) 20:47, August 31, 2008"
03:14:24 <ehird> got completion working
03:14:58 <ehird> bind ^I=complete-list
03:15:11 <ehird> does it read .kshrc
03:17:19 <ehird> whatever, those are the two commands you need
03:19:54 <ehird> well, this seems to "work"
03:19:59 <ehird> i'd much prefer rc, but...
03:22:59 <ehird> I need to refine my C code.
03:25:42 <ehird> "BTW, don't blame me for this hack; it's in the original ksh."
03:28:14 <ehird> PS1="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')$ "
03:30:13 <ehird> What's the code to change title of xterm again?
03:32:24 <pikhq> Pity my code for that is in zsh...
03:35:37 <ehird> bind ^I=complete-list
03:35:38 <ehird> dir="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')"
03:35:38 <ehird> title=$(printf "\r\r\r\e]0;$dir\a\r")
03:35:38 <ehird> PS1="$title$dir$ "
03:36:20 <ehird> I don't think the r stuff works properly
03:36:30 <ehird> bind ^I=complete-list
03:36:30 <ehird> dir="\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')"
03:36:31 <ehird> title=$(printf "\e]0;$dir\a")
03:36:31 <ehird> PS1="$title$dir$ "
03:37:16 <ehird> if [ $0 = ksh ]; then . ~/.kshrc; fi
03:39:03 <ehird> hmm what's the ${##} type thing to replace...
03:39:12 <ehird> gah, rc is so much simpler than all of this b u l l s h i t
03:39:46 <ehird> you wanna know how you get shit in the title in rc?
03:39:47 <ehird> fn prompt { printf '\e]0;'^`{pwd}^'\a' }
03:39:51 <ehird> that doesn't do the replacement
03:39:59 <ehird> wanna know how fucking easy it is to do the replacement?
03:40:20 <ehird> fn prompt { printf '\e]0;'^`{pwd | sed "s@^$HOME@~@"}^'\a' }
03:41:56 <ehird> btw, why do people truncate history files?
03:43:48 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
03:45:32 <ehird> okay, i will get this working
03:51:07 <ehird> why ism't there a rlwrap that keeps track of cwd
04:10:13 -!- deschutron has joined.
04:16:25 -!- Pthing has joined.
04:16:53 <madbrain> what would be a good repartition of memory cycles for a system
04:17:59 * ehird considers writing a fortran compiler for no reason
04:18:06 <madbrain> considering you have 400 memory cycles per scanline (in 320x240 @ 60fps) to share between video hardware, cpu and sound
04:18:27 <ehird> who needs 60fps, do 640x480 @ 30fps
04:19:03 <madbrain> 30fps is not NTSC or VGA compatible
04:19:06 <ehird> (in fact I'd go for 1280x960 @ 15fps unless i was going to do fun demosceney stuff, but eh; no lcds really support that res)
04:19:21 <ehird> do 24fps then :-P or 29.999997 or whatever ntsc is
04:19:33 <ehird> but 320x240 is a bit low w imo
04:19:52 <madbrain> VGA refuses to display anything that had a horiz refresh of less than 30khz
04:20:21 <madbrain> (in fact that's what vga does for low resolution modes)
04:20:48 <ehird> i mean you can do fun graphics at 320x240, but text will be ugly or limited
04:21:05 <madbrain> yeah text definitely benefits from 640x480
04:21:12 <ehird> 30fps is enough for all the fast-paced FPS games out there /shrug
04:21:17 <deschutron> do you mean set the video output at 30Hz, and then display each frame twice at 60Hz
04:21:26 <ehird> that could work, yep
04:22:05 <madbrain> If you display 640x480 on a TV, you have to make it interlaced though
04:22:26 <ehird> could just use a crt
04:22:45 <ehird> i guess vga is too boringly conventional :-D
04:22:51 <madbrain> Afaik a CRT accepts most stuff you throw at it
04:22:59 <ehird> interlacing would work fine though
04:23:08 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
04:23:13 <madbrain> But the horiz rate has to be at least 30khz
04:23:13 <ehird> well, apart from the artifacts :-P
04:24:14 <madbrain> Hence 320x240 (which is actually 320x480 with each line displayed twice) and 640x480
04:24:59 <ehird> Supporting a TV is cool, though... but interlacing artifacts would ruin the coolness of hooking up an fpga to a TV and seeing a spinning cube :)
04:25:37 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/576i
04:25:57 <madbrain> I have no device that would show it
04:26:00 <ehird> what do you canucks use
04:26:48 <ehird> low resolution might not be so bad since it's a crt tv
04:26:52 <ehird> they basically antialiase for you ;-)
04:27:20 <madbrain> I'm probably going to base it on VGA timing
04:28:48 <madbrain> I wonder if LCDs will accept 524 scanline 640x480 or if they want 525 scanlines
04:29:01 <ehird> isn't vga 640x480 interlacing on a tv
04:29:13 <ehird> also, LCDs just accept their native resolution. anything else is acceptable
04:29:15 <ehird> it'll just scale it to shit
04:29:33 <madbrain> well, dunno how LCDs handle freaky hacked VGA modes
04:30:05 <madbrain> one thing I know is that they guess the horiz resolution from the # of lines
04:30:28 <madbrain> specifically they guess 640x350, 720x400 and 640x480
04:31:11 <madbrain> Unfortunately that wrecks 640x400 modes (80x50 text mode and 320x200)
04:33:41 <Ilari> Aren't normal text modes 9 pixels wide per character cell?
04:34:09 <madbrain> there are both 8 pixel and 9 pixel modes!
04:34:20 <ehird> that's way too small to actually read though :P
04:34:47 <madbrain> in fact VGA has 2 different clock crystals, one for 8 pixel mode (640x) and one for 9 pixel mode (720x)
04:35:09 <Ilari> Isn't there also 16 pixel mode?
04:35:17 <ehird> each glyph must be 8x20 for 640x480 80x24 text mode
04:36:13 <madbrain> In 9 pixel mode it generates an extra pixel, usually black, without any charset data
04:36:23 <ehird> by glyph i mean including spaciing
04:36:28 <madbrain> ehird: that's a kinda weird mode
04:36:36 <ehird> so assuming one pixel character separation,
04:36:40 <ehird> and two pixel line separation
04:36:48 <ehird> chars themselves would be 7x18
04:37:22 <ehird> madbrain: it's weird, but it's also fun and unconventional :P
04:37:35 <madbrain> more common is 640x350 80x25 with 8x14 chars, 720x400 80x25 with 8+1x16 chars
04:38:01 <ehird> but 80x24 is more common than 80x25 :-P
04:38:14 <ehird> 80x24 is universal on unix
04:38:35 <ehird> who wants to imitate the PC!
04:39:22 <madbrain> I've done some ZZT and Megazeux games, the systems are based on 80x25
04:39:30 <ehird> anyway, square chars are silly :-P
04:39:44 <ehird> english isn't square!
04:39:50 <madbrain> Well, that's because our alphabet is narrow yeah :D
04:40:21 <ehird> 8x12 might be good; gives you 80x40
04:40:31 <ehird> which is an *excellent* size for English text
04:40:53 <ehird> (and programming...)
04:41:26 <ehird> might be a bit TOO narrow though
04:41:45 <ehird> use two pixels at bottom or top for line spacing
04:41:47 <ehird> and only one for char spacing
04:41:55 <ehird> (of course you can use them for characters that don't quite fit...)
04:42:03 <ehird> that way it isn't quite as narrow but the glyphs are still 8x12
04:42:13 <madbrain> ok, I have my VGA tweaking program ready to use :D
04:42:57 <madbrain> http://www.gameprogrammer.com/demos/tweak16b.zip <- a good old classic vga tweaking program some dude wrote in 1993
04:44:53 <ehird> drawing non-cookie-cutter pixel fonts is hard
04:45:00 <madbrain> ok, the monitor can definitely cope with a missing vga line or two :D
04:45:17 <ehird> 8x12 would be cool to serif
04:45:17 <madbrain> ehird: I drew a couple in megazeux's char editor
04:45:30 <madbrain> (8x14 of course since that's what megazeux uses)
04:46:06 <madbrain> The best trick with text mode fonts is to keep using 2 pixel wide vertical lines
04:49:00 <ehird> hmm, that could make this look less like an outline, yeah
04:50:00 <ehird> there's enough variation to do bold here
04:55:30 <ehird> madbrain: 7x12 might be better for english text, actually (regular glyph size 6x10 due to spacing)
04:55:53 <ehird> (it's just that "c" looks a bit stretched)
04:57:24 <ehird> madbrain: does 640x480 on a tv have square pixels?
04:57:49 <madbrain> On TVs it's probably something like "who knows"
04:58:09 <madbrain> I can't remember if TVs eat the top and bottom 8 lines
04:59:17 <ehird> funny how the pixels look different when you zoom out
04:59:24 <ehird> most CRTs are so crappy as to smooth out any oddities anyway :D
04:59:41 <madbrain> At least ZSNES seems to output 256x224
05:00:09 <ehird> and wow — 640x480 is a lot with 8x12 characters! (7x10 regular glyphs yada yada yada)
05:00:28 <ehird> could fit a novel onto one screen :P
05:01:08 <ehird> 80x40 doesn't seem much, but it looks like it...
05:02:42 <ehird> Funny how you have to do slightly different m etrics to get bold characters to have the same shape as regular ones.
05:03:36 <ehird> why don't people do more serifed pixel fonts?
05:04:01 <ehird> so do I, but serif pixel fonts look nice
05:04:08 <ehird> since the serifs are so tiny, it's just like adding some spice to it
05:04:36 <madbrain> Sans serif is a bit more stylistically neutral
05:05:19 <ehird> but all sans serif pixel fonts look the same :)
05:06:55 <ehird> well definitely my, what was it, 3x4 glyphs (always 1px spacing around it, so 4x5 if you want ot be pedantic) were pretty unique and yet the same...
05:07:04 <ehird> unique because I had to contort lots of characters in fun ways, the same because, well
05:07:18 <ehird> there aren't many ways to draw the alphabet, numbers and some punctuation at that size
05:07:25 <ehird> although i did have two sets of numbers, lowercase and uppercase
05:07:28 <ehird> that went with the corresponding alphabet
05:07:38 <ehird> and every single one was different
05:07:48 <ehird> madbrain: glyph or char (spacing)
05:07:59 <ehird> glyph w/o spacing char w/
05:08:30 <madbrain> Including spacing, so 7 pixel of data
05:08:48 <madbrain> Unless you also use the spacing pixels!
05:09:10 <ehird> sometimes you can use them for e.g. accents
05:09:22 <ehird> (ascenders it's generally best to leave the normal spacing)
05:10:00 <ehird> the one I'm doing now is 7x10 usual glyph, 8x12 size
05:10:10 <ehird> so your suggestion has been heeded :-P
05:10:38 <madbrain> yeah you need space for descencers, accents over capital letters
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05:10:53 <ehird> i have a whole two vertical pixels available for descenders :-P
05:10:56 <ehird> (the vertical spacing at the bottom)
05:11:29 <ehird> no real space for accents though :-D
05:11:30 <madbrain> I think 8x14 fonts normally have 2 space lines at the top and 3 at the bottom
05:11:53 <ehird> 7x10 glyphs are just enough to be able to design :P
05:12:02 <ehird> e is really hard though
05:12:27 <madbrain> dunno, you don't have to squeeze it
05:12:39 <ehird> well, to get it looking like my other chars
05:13:01 <ehird> madbrain: aah s was almost impossible in my 3x4-glyph font
05:13:19 <ehird> (capital letter = lowercase letter height for space)
05:13:39 <ehird> in the end I used an optical illusion to make it look like z was like a small zeta even though it had no curve :P
05:13:40 <madbrain> most snes games use sans serif
05:13:53 <ehird> I used the same to do N
05:13:59 <ehird> i had to optical illusion the slant
05:15:57 <madbrain> just don't make it into a typewriter font :D
05:17:53 <madbrain> Dunno, I always thought courrier looked awful :D
05:19:34 <madbrain> some games have chinese calligraphy imitation fonts
05:19:58 <madbrain> although it's hard to shoehorn latin letters into chinese calligraphy due to the kind of shape they use :D
05:22:16 <ehird> my bold letters look smaller
05:22:23 <ehird> well they are, i guess, they're shorter generally, the lowercase parts
05:22:26 <ehird> but that's just so they don't look weird
05:24:50 <ehird> ooh f is a challenge
05:26:39 <ehird> looks a bit weird, but oho well
05:28:42 <ehird> I should use this as a terminal font
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05:34:53 <madbrain> I think there's this idea that sans serif is closer to a "pure" version of the letters
05:35:13 <ehird> that's true, but it also reflects why sans serif pixel fonts almost all look identical
05:35:27 <ehird> because you have to express the purest form in such constraints, there's almost a "right way" to do it
05:35:49 <ehird> at bigger sizes there's more ambiguity, so to speak, so you can have unique sans serif typefaces
05:35:58 <ehird> but going smaller, serifs really help to distinguish it
05:41:21 <madbrain> just found the vga 28mhz clock bit
05:42:08 <ehird> how do you make i span 7 chars
05:42:14 <ehird> you don't, and you have a shitload of spacing
05:43:38 <ehird> monospace is pretty silly.
05:43:51 <madbrain> although you can get it to 4 pixels wide with serif
05:44:35 <ehird> wait, how four pixels
06:02:04 <madbrain> most modes that would be neat flat out don't work
06:02:24 <ehird> modes as in text modes or
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06:03:24 <ehird> which neat ones don't work?
06:04:09 <madbrain> 80x40 text mode 640x480 with 8x12 chars DOES work though :D
06:04:24 <ehird> The best mode there is!
06:04:38 <madbrain> the ones that aren't 320x or 360x (or 640x or 720x for 16 color and text modes)
06:04:52 <ehird> 80x48 might be cooler tho
06:05:01 <ehird> since you can have two unix terminals at once
06:05:26 <ehird> hmm yeah, too easy
06:05:37 <ehird> just need to do 8x10
06:05:38 <madbrain> basically character height is free
06:05:50 <madbrain> because it has no effect on monitor timing
06:06:00 <ehird> 80x12 is better for text, anyway, so losing a few lines is no big deal
06:06:16 <madbrain> monitor timing is the stupid part where the monitor gets finnicky and refuses your mode
06:06:34 <ehird> madbrain: what's the lowest res and highest timing you ca n d o
06:07:34 <madbrain> VGA is not meant for modes other than x350, x400 and x480 although normally modes with less lines actually do work
06:10:10 <madbrain> what works is modes with faster frame rates and more lines, except VGA has a fixed clock so none of these modes are practical outside SVGA
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06:31:57 <ehird> "Of the 51 system calls present in Plan 9, we have written equivalents of the most essential ones, allowing simple executables like cat, sed, grep and even the Plan 9 C compiler, 8c to run unmodified on Linux." —Glendix
06:32:00 <ehird> maybe i could reuse the c compiler
06:32:04 <ehird> too standards incompliant
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06:37:57 <ehird> http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/technology/computers/7869585-man-using-trackball.php?id=7869585 hypnotic
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06:53:32 <ehird> "The way it was characterized politically, you had copyright, which is what the big companies use to lock everything up; you had copyleft, which is free software's way of making sure they can't lock it up; and then Berkeley had what we called 'copycenter', which is 'take it down to the copy center and make as many copies as you want.'" — Kirk McKusick, BSDCon 1999
06:55:01 <ehird> "Controversial decisions are often made differently from OpenBSD; for instance, there won't be any support for SMP in MirOS." let me know how that works out for you
07:02:54 -!- deschutron has left (?).
07:04:32 <ehird> an alternative to llvm/clang? mayhaps
07:06:06 <ehird> http://pcc.zentus.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/os/linux/ccconfig.h?rev=1.16;content-type=text%2Fplain Repeat after me! Linux! Is! Not! ELF!
07:37:23 * ehird attempts to use CVS as a DVCS
07:45:05 <ehird> That was surprisingly easy
07:48:39 <ehird> Ew, I even got pulling and pushing for free
07:48:48 <ehird> I feel dirty now (← DO NOT TAKE THESE TWO LINES OUT OF CONTEXT)
07:49:21 <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/11/new_thinkpad_1.jpg
07:49:23 <ehird> This image is photoshopped
07:49:24 <ehird> This image is photoshopped
07:49:25 <ehird> This image is photoshopped
07:49:27 <ehird> This image is photoshopped or a ripoff
07:49:36 <ehird> Oh god AnMaster, you are so lucky to have bought yours already
07:52:18 <ehird> waaaaaaaait, it looks 4:3
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08:03:47 -!- Jaykul has changed nick to Jaykul[AFK].
08:09:35 <ehird> A C compiler that compiles in less than a minute. Refreshing.
08:17:52 <ehird> http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/, an update of the old pcc. BSD licensed.
08:18:03 <ehird> Tiny, fast. Good platform support. Good GCC compatibility.
08:18:08 <ehird> BSDs are eyeing it to replace GCC eventually.
08:18:16 <ehird> It also compiles very quickly.
08:18:22 <ehird> (as in, compiles code you give to it)
08:18:23 <pikhq> A C compiler that doesn't have more abstraction layers than frontends. :P
08:18:28 <ehird> and the compiler itself compiles in less than a minute
08:18:43 * ehird makes it compile itself
08:19:33 <ehird> Unfortunately it doesn't have -Os yet
08:19:47 <ehird> but methinks this may be a contender for the main compiler
08:19:53 <ehird> Minimalist, well-coded, well-licensed, and fast.
08:20:11 <ehird> "YACC The `Yet Another C Compiler' implementation to use."
08:20:16 <ehird> a typo in autoconf?!
08:20:47 <pikhq> And I thought autoconf was a well-implemented bad idea, rather than a typo'd one. :P
08:20:56 <ehird> I sure hope someone changed that in some pcc file, because oh my word.
08:20:59 <ehird> ...Microwerks? SERIOUSLY?
08:21:03 <ehird> /usr/include//stdarg.h:8: error: "This header only supports __MWERKS__."
08:21:03 <ehird> ...Microwerks? SERIOUSLY?
08:21:13 <ehird> #if defined(__GNUC__)
08:21:14 <ehird> #include_next <stdarg.h>
08:21:14 <ehird> #elif defined(__MWERKS__)
08:21:14 <ehird> #include "mw_stdarg.h"
08:21:15 <ehird> #error "This header only supports __MWERKS__."
08:21:57 <ehird> Additionally, stdargs.h only works with gcc. Paste the following lines into /usr/local/lib/pcc/stdarg.h:
08:22:00 <ehird> Thanks pcc website
08:22:15 <ehird> It does the obvious:
08:22:17 <ehird> #ifndef _STDARG_H_
08:22:17 <ehird> #define _STDARG_H_
08:22:17 <ehird> #define va_list char *
08:22:18 <ehird> #define va_start(ap, last) __builtin_stdarg_start((ap), last)
08:22:18 <ehird> #define va_arg(ap, type) __builtin_va_arg((ap), type)
08:22:20 <ehird> #define va_end(ap) __builtin_va_end((ap))
08:22:22 <ehird> #define va_copy(dest, src) __builtin_va_copy((dest), (src))
08:22:26 <ehird> Oops, flood. Sorry.
08:22:46 <ehird> ld whines a lot about
08:22:47 <ehird> ld warning: can't find atom for N_GSYM stabs _stublist:G1 in compat.o
08:22:53 <ehird> and we get the error
08:22:56 <ehird> pcc -DGCC_COMPAT -DPCC_DEBUG -Dos_darwin -Dmach_i386 -D_ISOC99_SOURCE -I. -I. -I../.. -I../../mip -I../../arch/i386 -I../../os/darwin -g -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -Wshadow -Wsign-compare -Wtruncate -c -o pftn.o pftn.c
08:22:56 <ehird> pftn.c, line 1856: compiler error: Cannot generate code, node 0x839b70 op OREG
08:23:35 <ehird> for (i = 0, base = tylnk.next; base; base = base->next, i++)
08:23:41 <ehird> Odd place to fail (the second line, I think)
08:55:53 <ehird> Maybe it's in fact the previous line.
08:57:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/11/new_thinkpad_1.jpg <-- huh
08:57:40 <ehird> probably either photoshopped or a fake.
08:57:45 <ehird> (ripoff fake that is)
08:57:55 <ehird> especially note that stretched thinkpad logo≥
08:58:04 <ehird> puzzlet: it's an abomination against thinkpads
08:58:10 <ehird> - chiclet keyboard (seriously!!)
08:58:17 <ehird> - ugh, just so ugly
08:58:33 <ehird> the keys are separated
08:58:35 <ehird> think macbook keyboard
08:58:48 <ehird> also shallower than most laptop keyboards
08:58:58 <ehird> i'm fairly sure lenovo would never do this though
08:59:02 <ehird> unless to the sl line, which sucks anyway
08:59:41 <ehird> "consumer"; glossy, iirc 16:9 not sure though
08:59:47 <ehird> internals are not actually thinkpad internals.
08:59:51 <ehird> (taken from ideapad or something)
09:00:09 <ehird> "consumer" lenovo notebooks
09:00:50 <ehird> AnMaster: link me to latest cfunge code drop or bzr or whatever
09:00:55 <ehird> I'm gonna try and compile it with pcc :)
09:01:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't compile with pcc. at least didn't last I tried.
09:01:55 <ehird> that's been improved.
09:02:06 <ehird> http://www.bsdfund.org/projects/pcc/
09:02:10 <ehird> see "improved c99 functionality".
09:03:14 <ehird> "Support BSD with every purchase! Every time you use the BSD Fund Visa, a small donation is made to BSD Fund to support its programs."
09:03:14 <ehird> That requires some dedication...
09:03:54 <AnMaster> https://code.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/trunk
09:04:06 <AnMaster> maybe there is a "get a tarball" link there somewhere
09:04:29 <ehird> CMake seems happy with pcc so far, using ccmake.
09:04:49 <ehird> Default settings are fine to build a full cfunge, yep?
09:05:12 <AnMaster> ehird, should be. Not sure if cmake is likely to mess something up there
09:05:30 <ehird> [ 9%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/lib/genx/genx.c.o
09:05:34 <ehird> /Users/ehird/Downloads/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c, line 848: compiler error: Cannot generate code, node 0x81c490 op >>
09:05:38 <ehird> Eventful build, that.
09:05:47 <ehird> Note: This is probably due to me being on OS X.
09:05:53 <ehird> Want I should try it in my Arch VM?
09:05:54 <AnMaster> ehird, that file isn't even very C99ish
09:05:59 <ehird> See note about OS X.
09:06:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well. feel free to. I tried it under FreeBSD iirc
09:07:15 <ehird> "Command substitution was something else I added because that gives you very general mechanism to do string processing; it allows you to get strings back from commands and use them as the text of the script as if you had typed it directly. I think this was a new idea that I, at least, had not seen in scripting languages, except perhaps LISP."
09:07:15 <ehird> Fuck you Bourne, it was a really terrible idae.
09:08:01 <ehird> because you have to put quotes everywhere so that it ends up just like a regular programming language
09:08:27 <ehird> all uses of it in non-quoted ways apart from to send as arguments (like python *foo) are harmful hacks because the shell is crippled
09:08:53 <ehird> "sudo pacman -S bzr cvs"
09:09:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Also: "Moreover - although the v7 shell is written in C - Bourne took advantage of some macros[1] to give the C source code an ALGOL 68 flavor."
09:09:40 <ehird> Basically this guy is totally crazy.
09:09:54 <ehird> ("Nobody really knows what the Bourne shell's grammar is. Even examination of the source code is little help." —Tom Duff)
09:10:15 <ehird> http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/src/cmd/sh/main.c.html
09:10:21 <ehird> Feast your eyes upon the macroed horror!!!!
09:10:31 <ehird> IF (flags&prompt) ANDF standin->fstak==0 ANDF !eof
09:10:32 <ehird> THENIF mailnod.namval
09:10:32 <ehird> ANDF stat(mailnod.namval,&statb)>=0 ANDF statb.st_size
09:10:32 <ehird> ANDF (statb.st_mtime != mailtime)
09:11:30 <ehird> Sweet, pcc supports pdp11.
09:12:26 <ehird> pdksh probably isn't so bad.
09:12:37 <ehird> I'm still erring on the side of rc for the shell
09:12:56 <AnMaster> ehird, who was that "Tom Duff" you mentioned (invokes aisness)
09:13:10 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Duff. he also has an account on our wiki, and that picture is horrible
09:13:31 <ehird> AnMaster: duff device
09:13:43 <ehird> http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/2nd_edition/papers/gfx/pjw.ps.17761.gif
09:13:46 <ehird> much better picture :-P
09:13:58 <ehird> wait, that's "pjw"
09:14:57 <ehird> Hmm, pcc doesn't do C++.
09:15:17 <AnMaster> when it becomes stable for c++
09:15:26 <ehird> Linking clangged WebKit with pcc'd surf, though?
09:15:39 <AnMaster> ehird, why not use clang for everything?
09:15:48 <ehird> pcc is simpler, faster.
09:16:25 * ehird is considering purchasing a trackball
09:16:42 <ehird> it's just... i think i've retarded my thumbs using a mouse for so lnog
09:16:53 <ehird> emulating trackball motion is uncomfortable
09:17:25 * ehird make clean, reconfigure w—
09:17:29 <ehird> oh, I forgot to compile the libraries first
09:19:06 <ehird> Can too create executables!
09:19:31 <ehird> Would help if pcc was in my path, ehehehehe...
09:19:37 <ehird> Oops, turned into MKRY there.
09:20:17 <ehird> AnMaster: have you ever used a trackball?
09:20:33 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. found it quite awkward. Only very temporarily
09:20:41 <AnMaster> when helping someone having one with a computer issue.
09:20:51 <ehird> i.e. trackball in middle or to the side
09:20:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the ball was on the side
09:21:22 <ehird> Uncomfortable just after your thumb (bottom of your hand), would you say? That's what I'm getting when attempting it in thin air
09:21:30 <ehird> The lifting up motion, so to speak.
09:21:37 <ehird> Woot, pcc compiles itself.
09:21:38 <AnMaster> ehird, The fact that it was a left hand edition didn't help
09:21:46 <ehird> Well that'd do it.
09:21:59 <ehird> Aaaand pcc is replaced by a pcc compiled by itself YO DAWG
09:22:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I actually use mouse quite well with either hand
09:22:29 * AnMaster has a symetric mouse for that reason
09:25:05 <ehird> pcc cannot compile a simple test program, sweet
09:25:14 <ehird> "ld: cannot find -lc"
09:25:54 <ehird> /lib/libc.so.6 exists.
09:28:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well then. I can't help you at all
09:29:37 <ehird> base-devel is all you need in arch, right?
09:30:01 <AnMaster> ehird, uh. maybe. not 100% sure. I know it works on my arch system for sure
09:30:07 <AnMaster> but it was so long ago I set it up
09:31:17 <ehird> Not with pcc it doesn't.
09:32:15 <AnMaster> wait if gcc didn't work. How comes you could compile pcc at all?
09:32:29 <ehird> I don't know, don't ask me.
09:32:56 <ehird> Maybe only pcc is adding -lc, and I forgot to rm -rf before ccmaking without CC=pcc.
09:32:58 <ehird> So it used pcc again.
09:33:03 <ehird> But pcc could compile pcc.
09:33:06 <ehird> So cmake is fucking up.
09:33:30 <AnMaster> ehird, possible. Or pcc is having issues with one of the cmake tests
09:33:40 <AnMaster> ehird, check if cmake works with gcc for cfunge
09:33:46 <ehird> "-lc" is wrong, whyever it's being added.
09:33:55 <ehird> it starts configuring
09:34:09 <AnMaster> well then. if it passes the point where cmake fails pcc?
09:34:59 <AnMaster> ehird, just that I know cfunge breaks some older cmake 2.6 versions. IIRC the interval [2.6, 2.6.3)
09:35:26 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah same thing. Just me being lazy
09:35:43 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it breaks it by throwing a syntax error during the configure thing
09:37:29 <ehird> There's also /usr/lib/libc.so
09:37:56 <ehird> ASCII C program text?!
09:38:07 <ehird> it's a gnu ld script
09:38:12 <ehird> But my ld is gnu...
09:38:24 <ehird> Anyway, won't it use /lib/libc.so.6?
09:38:38 <AnMaster> it should by that linker script
09:38:47 <AnMaster> Use the shared library, but some functions are only in
09:38:47 <AnMaster> the static library, so try that secondarily. */
09:38:47 <AnMaster> GROUP ( /lib64/libc.so.6 /usr/lib64/libc_nonshared.a AS_NEEDED ( /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 ) )
09:38:56 <ehird> yeah, that's what i have too
09:39:37 <AnMaster> but it should be similar. maybe some diff in the /lib64 bit depending on how exactly the multilib stuff is done
09:40:02 <ehird> ENABLE_64BIT is on.
09:40:15 <AnMaster> ehird, that only affects size of funge cells
09:40:17 <ehird> I'll look in the retarded 64 directories — hey, another problem my distro doesn't have! :P
09:40:24 <ehird> AnMaster: well it's 64 bit arch too
09:40:37 <AnMaster> ehird, it is int32_t vs. int64_t for funge cells
09:40:47 <ehird> OUTPUT_FORMAT(elf32-i386)
09:40:55 <ehird> what in cry's name
09:40:59 <ehird> do i need some sort of
09:41:02 <ehird> magic-64bit-package
09:41:12 <AnMaster> ehird, wait, is the distro 64-bit?
09:41:35 <ehird> I'm so confused... about everything...
09:41:51 <ehird> Ha, a blind person who likes Python.
09:42:16 <ehird> [[I code with edbrowse, which is a derivitive of /bin/ed]]
09:42:22 <ehird> (Also the only option)
09:42:41 <ehird> The whole blind thing doesn't mesh with, you know, graphical editors.
09:42:50 <ehird> (Including vi and all)
09:42:56 <AnMaster> ehird, one of those braile ttys?
09:43:06 <ehird> Screenreaders are easier.
09:43:10 <ehird> And make typing easier.
09:43:19 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly. *imagines Microsoft sam reading lisp code*
09:43:30 <ehird> I sort of wish I could be temporarily blind, just so I could set up a tricked out text-to-speech environmeent.
09:45:58 * AnMaster imagines ehird's parents reaction on that
09:46:01 <ehird> It's a whole fun avenue of interface design that I'm totally deprived of. Blind people have it easy!
09:46:09 <AnMaster> wait I think I missed some ' there
09:46:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you know. Since you aren't deaf you could use it even when without a blindfold
09:47:18 <ehird> But I'd cheat by looking.
09:47:29 <ehird> Also, it'd be boring. :P
09:48:33 <ehird> What I mean is, looking at something that doesn't change (assuming I blanked the screen).
09:50:20 <fizzie> Just remember to not eat any floating eyes to get the most realistic being-blind blindfold experience.
09:50:21 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me if you manage to get pcc to work
09:50:45 <ehird> I can just do -Wl,-v
09:51:13 <ehird> Or just --verbose :P
09:51:38 <ehird> Actually, it is the same as -V
09:51:41 <AnMaster> that dumps the entire default linker script it seems
09:51:54 <ehird> Well, it's dumping the script too
09:52:09 <AnMaster> --verbose dumps linker script, -V doens't
09:52:25 <AnMaster> -v, --version Print version information
09:52:25 <AnMaster> -V Print version and emulation information
09:52:25 <ehird> "attempt to open /usr/local/lib/pcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/0.9.9/lib//libc.a failed"
09:52:29 <ehird> YOU ARE STUPID AND YOU SHOULD FEEL STUPID
09:52:31 <AnMaster> --verbose Output lots of information during link
09:52:46 <AnMaster> ehird, pcc is doing something strange with the arguments?
09:52:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure it must have passed the full path for that to happen
09:53:00 <ehird> But it should surely then look at the next directory
09:53:04 <ehird> It's definitely -lc
09:53:57 <AnMaster> attempt to open /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/2.18/../../lib/libc.so failed
09:53:57 <AnMaster> attempt to open /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/binutils-bin/2.18/../../lib/libc.a failed
09:53:57 <AnMaster> attempt to open /usr/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/lib64/libc.so failed
09:54:08 <AnMaster> attempt to open /usr/lib64/libc.so succeeded
09:54:08 <AnMaster> opened script file /usr/lib64/libc.so
09:54:12 <AnMaster> attempt to open /lib64/libc.so.6 succeeded
09:54:35 <ehird> Any way to get ld to tell me what arguments it'd getting?
09:56:45 <AnMaster> ehird, make ld a shell script that prints args then call the real ld
09:56:57 <AnMaster> that should work at the very least
09:56:59 <ehird> That would be my second choice.
09:58:34 <fizzie> strace it is always an option.
09:58:41 <fizzie> Rrrr, AnMaster's too fast.
09:58:41 <ehird> YOU HAVE BEEN REVEALED
09:58:47 <ehird> AnMaster, fizzie: I KNEW YOU WERE THE SAME
09:58:52 <ehird> fizzie is just major trolling me with AnMaster
09:59:02 <fizzie> I should've just stopped at "strace" without bothering with the trailing part.
09:59:12 <ehird> But fizzie doesn't annoy me.
09:59:19 <AnMaster> ehird, that is the whole point
10:00:09 <ehird> Please do that some more; it's devastating.
10:00:27 <ehird> strace + ncurses = LOL WUT
10:01:15 <AnMaster> path to pcc if it isn't in path
10:01:30 <AnMaster> ehird, and use the follow forks mode
10:01:39 <AnMaster> otherwise it won't tell you anything useful
10:02:04 <AnMaster> -f -- follow forks, -ff -- with output into separate files
10:02:04 <AnMaster> -F -- attempt to follow vforks, -h -- print help message
10:02:16 <ehird> Whee hueg spew to my console.
10:02:43 <fizzie> Yes, -o is often a good idea for strace too.
10:03:05 <AnMaster> since there will be lots of forks
10:03:34 <fizzie> I'd do -f; you can grep a single file just as easily as multiple files.
10:04:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> "attempt to open /usr/local/lib/pcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/0.9.9/lib//libc.a failed" <-- last solution: symlink that to the right file?
10:04:22 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw your tripplet would be different
10:04:27 <ehird> Tripppppppppppppplet.
10:04:37 <ehird> It'll be i686-pc-linux-newlib.
10:04:44 <ehird> AnMaster: better trippplet
10:05:03 <ehird> Where does the executable format go in a full whateverlet?
10:05:48 <ehird> Wait, what? It's executing /usr/local/bin/ld.
10:06:04 <ehird> Which uh, doesn't exist
10:06:08 <ehird> Does -f follow vforks?
10:06:18 <ehird> Because there's a vfork() here
10:06:24 <ehird> Does -F follow fork()s or do i need both
10:06:29 <AnMaster> "<AnMaster> -F -- attempt to follow vforks, -h -- print help message"
10:06:48 <ehird> Ah, the local one fails
10:06:54 <AnMaster> -F This option is now obsolete and it has the same functionality as -f.
10:07:51 <ehird> It looks for libc.so and .a in the pcc dir, then /usr/i686{...}/lib/libc.{so,a}
10:07:55 <ehird> then local- libc.so
10:08:22 <ehird> then goes t o /usr/lib/libc.so, um, again? whatever
10:08:39 <ehird> Then it goes to /lib/libc.so.6 which works (!)
10:08:49 <AnMaster> ehird, then what causes the error?
10:09:00 <ehird> then it reads something into a buffer containing "the 'gets' function is dangerous[…]" xD
10:09:20 <AnMaster> ehird, oh well I don't use it. It probably just reads a section listing bad stuff.
10:09:22 <ehird> Then it goes to /usr/lib/libc_nonshared.a, no fucking clue why
10:09:33 <AnMaster> /usr/lib/libc_nonshared.a exists?
10:09:48 * AnMaster wonders what the local-libc is
10:10:01 <ehird> now it goes to /lib/ld-linux.so.2
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12:05:32 * AnMaster considers the differences between the ubuntu installer and the netbsd installer.
12:06:30 <AnMaster> I think the netbsd installer is asking me more questions than even the ubuntu installer in expert mode on that alternative cd did..
12:07:08 <AnMaster> ooh like this: "Please choose the password cipher to use. NetBSD can be configured to use either the DES, MD5, Blowfish or SHA1 schemes."
12:08:05 <AnMaster> and 'If you are upgrading and would like to keep configuration unchanged, choose the last option "do not change".'
12:08:17 <AnMaster> (why can't it check that itself btw...)
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13:48:50 <fizzie> I don't quite see how the installer is supposed to check whether the user wants to change something or not except by asking the user, like it's doing there.
13:51:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, you have to select one of them on first install. So giving an option to not change on a new install is weird
13:51:24 <AnMaster> since it is meant for upgrades
13:51:40 <AnMaster> oh it also asks you if you *want* to see the root password
13:52:23 <fizzie> That's for cryptanalysts that want a can-I-break-it test where they can't cheat. (Okay, so not really.)
13:53:56 <fizzie> Feh; "2 November 2009: Notification of accepted applications" was promised, but I haven't received any emails yet. Certainly there's still many hours of 2 Nov remaining, but still.
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14:01:28 <fizzie> For my thesis research funding thing.
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14:02:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you suspect you weren't accpted?
14:04:02 <fizzie> Actually I suspect otherwise, based on very unofficial hush-hush rumours from my super²visor (who was in the graduate school board meeting where these things were designed); I guess they're just lazy about official announcements.
14:04:25 <fizzie> (A super²visor is a supervisor's supervisor, of course.)
14:04:50 <fizzie> s/designed/decided/; thinko.
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17:41:19 <AnMaster> [125244.889404] ACPI Warning (nseval-0177): Excess arguments - method [BEEP] needs 1, found 2 [20080926] <-- huh?
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17:51:00 <Oranjer1> well, do you know what it says?
17:51:24 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
17:52:06 <AnMaster> Oranjer, I read it, if that is what you mean
17:52:11 <AnMaster> http://www.mail-archive.com/ibm-acpi-devel%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg01770.html
17:53:33 <AnMaster> however my thinkpad is not listed in that quirk table
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17:54:12 <AnMaster> should. Day after tomorrow though. Bit busy currently. Large test tomorrow at university
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19:01:33 <fizzie> Yay, BasiliskII; http://zem.fi/~fis/mac.png
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19:07:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, BasiliskII does 68k only.
19:07:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is that Unix thing? network share?
19:07:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, or some sort of "guest additions"?
19:08:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's a BasiliskII-internal "show this Unix path as a volume" thing; I'm not quite sure how it's done on the MacOS side; it needs File System Manager V1.2 installed, though.
19:10:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: Uh... no comment, due to not exactly owning a 68k-suitable Mac right now.
19:10:35 <AnMaster> Oranjer, you could google. You ask so many questions that we just end up ignoring them as it is
19:11:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, I only have a "newworld" mac
19:11:12 <fizzie> Well, it was from http://files.oldos.org/files/macdl/quadra650.rom
19:12:16 <AnMaster> I think I may have a cd with that for PPC around
19:12:53 <fizzie> 7.5.3 from Apple's site.
19:13:13 <fizzie> http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.5_Version_7.5.3/
19:13:53 <fizzie> Oh, and http://w1.312.comhem.se/~u31227643/macboot.img.gz for a boot floppy image.
19:15:00 <fizzie> That macboot.img is the System 7.5 "Network Access Disk"; it's just that Apple's disk image of it is StuffIt'd with a reasonably new version, something macunpack on Linux doesn't read. Of course if you have a system that can run real StuffIt, that's not a problem.
19:15:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, interesting when removing the file from that last url
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19:15:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, depends. How new? I have one with OS 9...
19:15:58 <fizzie> I don't know how new, but that sounds new enough.
19:16:41 <fizzie> And .smi.bin is a very good format; you can use the hfsutils tools to get the MacBinary file into a HFS disk image, then attach that into whatever emulator you use for running MacOS, and there the .smi files are automagically mountable. (Of course you need something to boot from, like that network access disk image.)
19:20:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, no resource fork issues?
19:21:15 <fizzie> Well, not during the installation. Some problems with the provided Glider 4 zip, though.
19:21:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about glider pro?
19:21:53 <fizzie> As in, "too new, not interested".
19:21:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, damn. So basically useless. tried that shoehorn?
19:22:14 <fizzie> I assume it might be PPC-only, too, since it runs on OS X and OS 9 only.
19:22:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, there are those "fat binaries"
19:22:50 <AnMaster> somewhat like the universal binaries these days
19:23:11 <fizzie> Yes, I guess. I don't have OS 9, anyway.
19:23:45 <fizzie> Err, except maybe as the "Classic" thing on the PPC OS X iBook.
19:24:16 <fizzie> But, well, I could then just run it under OS X on the iBook, it's a supported system and all. Where's the fun in that?
19:25:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would bring down fungot wouldn't it?
19:25:50 <fizzie> The web server laptop is still not the iBook.
19:25:59 <fizzie> It's that Pentium M I pasted flags from the other day.
19:26:11 <fizzie> And I guess fungot died in that Freenode messup too.
19:26:52 <fizzie> RAW >>> ERROR :Closing Link: momus.zem.fi (Nick collision from syn.) <<<
19:26:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh? does it quit or reconnect in that case?
19:27:07 <fizzie> No, it dies if the SOCK 'R' operation fails.
19:27:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, so why didn't your service supervisor restart it?
19:27:36 <fizzie> Because I don't run it under one?
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19:27:58 <AnMaster> it sounds like the obvious thing
19:28:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, if it is on ubuntu you could write an upstart script for it
19:29:32 <fizzie> It's a relatively messy Debian virtual-machine thing, and I'm not interested enough to play with it that much; there's a lot to fix, the ignore settings still aren't persisted, for one thing.
19:31:53 <fizzie> Anyway, the Glider 4 zip seems to have the resource forks saved in that OS X thing, with a __MACOSX folder containing ._foo files for each foo file. The "macstream" utility I have can do some sort of AppleShare → MacBinary conversion (then I could stuff the MacBinary data into the HFS disk with hfsutils), and as far as I know that's sort-of the AppleShare format, but it just says "Short file X" for the zero-length data files X, where all the real meat is in
19:31:53 <fizzie> the ._X resource fork.
19:32:41 <AnMaster> and that should prove that cfunge is portable. Because if it runs on netbsd it implies that it is likely it will run on all platforms netbsd supports (I know it works on sparc already and ppc, so endian issues would be unlikely). And if it runs on all platforms that netbsd supports it runs on everything
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19:33:43 <serp> what is this channel?
19:33:55 <AnMaster> a language about esoteric programming languages
19:34:06 <AnMaster> (hm why isn't that in topic any more)
19:34:19 <AnMaster> serp, you were going here for the other sort?
19:34:51 <serp> no I like esoteric languages
19:34:53 <serp> what is your favorite?
19:35:22 <fizzie> I guess I could use genisoimage (mkisofs) to make a HFS CD image, I think that tool had a really crazy list of supported formats. That feels a bit silly though.
19:35:22 <serp> I like befunge
19:35:26 <serp> haven't heard about intercal
19:35:47 <AnMaster> intercal would the the archetypical one. Since it was basically the first one
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19:36:08 <AnMaster> (not that it is on topic all the time.)
19:36:37 <AnMaster> we are all easily distracted perhaps?
19:36:45 <AnMaster> yay, I got cfunge to compile under netbsd
19:36:51 <serp> I like esoteric languages
19:38:26 <olsner> serp: som du ser finns det andra svenskar här också :D
19:38:56 <olsner> och en norrman (oerjan) som dyker upp ibland
19:41:21 <serp> är alla svenskar?
19:41:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yay, http://zem.fi/~fis/glider.png
19:41:41 <olsner> nee, typ bara vi och AnMaster
19:41:46 <AnMaster> how strange. I had to use "ftp http://..." to download over http
19:41:55 <AnMaster> that is just so completely stupid
19:42:25 <AnMaster> (also I keep to English in order to ensure others can read it)
19:42:38 <fizzie> I have a feeling OS X didn't include wget by default, but had a FTP client that could speak HTTP; at least somewhere I've done ftp http://... too.
19:43:09 <fizzie> I don't think it was that, I haven't used NetBSD in ages.
19:43:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: And there's a 16-color mode too. (It asked on startup whether I want to switch to 2-color or 16-color mode.)
19:43:49 <AnMaster> btw cfunge turns out to work better on netbsd than on openbsd
19:43:50 <fizzie> "genisoimage -o ../glider_4.iso -hfs --osx-double ." got me a .iso image that had the correct resource forks.
19:47:29 <AnMaster> olsner, where do you know serp from btw?
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19:48:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seems cfunge passes mycology on netbsd too. Apart from some minor differences for FPSP/FPDP
19:48:38 <olsner> from the same place as ampleyfly here, actually
19:48:41 <AnMaster> UNDEF: E says asin(2) is 0.000000 (actually complex: NaN)
19:48:49 <AnMaster> I suspect bug in netbsd asin here
19:48:55 <AnMaster> because I remember openbsd used to have the same bug
19:49:08 <fizzie> Now if I'd just suck less in that game, heh.
19:49:10 <serp> ampleyfly and me made a esoteric language for a course. unfortunately the report is in Swedish. some examples are on the last page: http://www-und.ida.liu.se/~jakfr986/b4ch.pdf
19:50:06 <serp> it's similair to befunge in 4 dimensions
19:50:31 <AnMaster> serp, there is already n-dimensional befunge
19:50:39 <AnMaster> well. more than 3D is uncommon but...
19:50:47 <AnMaster> serp, so what befunge version did you use? 98?
19:51:01 <serp> it's not a befunge... we just borrowed some ideas frm there
19:51:07 <AnMaster> serp, at university? Huh how did you get that past
19:51:27 <serp> it was for an intro course in lisp
19:51:46 <serp> datateknik på LiTH
19:52:13 <AnMaster> Dataingengör? Eller någon annan variant?
19:53:44 * AnMaster undrar om man kan få det vid örebro universitet också
19:54:01 <fizzie> Not providing a public_html-alike directory sounds pretty strange.
19:54:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, well maybe they do. But since it is windows mostly where the hell would you look
19:55:13 <fizzie> Hrm, well, that's another thing. For the record, our place gives students a "60 MB soft-quota, 100 MB hard-quota" public_html directory at users.tkk.fi or some-such.
19:55:42 <fizzie> (Hm, and I have 52M in use. That's curious.)
19:56:37 <fizzie> PNG format screenshots from the Eurovision Song Contest and everything else that's very study-related.
19:57:20 <fizzie> 33M of PNG files containing different graphized versions of fungot, also. :p
19:57:20 <fungot> fizzie: oh well. guess that saved me.
19:57:40 <fizzie> fungot: Er, were you in some sort of danger, then?
19:57:41 <fungot> fizzie: " oh wow this is"
19:58:03 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
19:58:27 <fizzie> It resets to the irc style whenever it gets rebooted.
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19:59:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, png? try advpng and optipng
19:59:18 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot
19:59:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, but that is not the uni one is it?
19:59:48 <fizzie> No, that's my own place.
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20:01:04 <fizzie> http://users.tkk.fi/~htkallas/euroviisukoodi1.png is at the university web-space.
20:01:33 <fizzie> They showed that bit during the Eurovision contest between-songs-nonsense-videos one year.
20:01:52 <fizzie> (It makes very little sense.)
20:02:08 <fizzie> (Also ...2.png and 3.png.)
20:03:28 <fizzie> Yes. The "|YLE|TV2" in the corner is the logo of the local broadcast company.
20:03:55 <fizzie> I assume someone was just told to "write some sort of code-like stuff here".
20:03:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm did it look like it was a screenshot or a photo of a screen
20:04:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean it isn't something like a bluescreen on a public display?
20:05:02 <AnMaster> which could be explained by all those errors
20:05:05 <fizzie> I don't remember the surroundings; I think they showed a guy at a keyboard, then focused on the monitor showing that bit.
20:05:43 <AnMaster> and that is quite a lot of whitespace
20:10:48 <Deewiant> I like how they chose to write it in Eclipse, which highlights it all as erroneous
20:14:33 <pikhq> That is perfectly valid (if useless) Plof.
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20:22:54 <fizzie> Social networking! http://twitter.com/big_ben_clock (Link courtesy of ineiros.)
20:24:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, what version of that emulator did you use?
20:24:46 <fizzie> Whatever was packaged in Debian. Let's see.
20:25:04 <fizzie> 0.9.20070407-4 according to the package.
20:25:21 <fizzie> "Basilisk II V1.0 by Christian Bauer et al." according to the program itself.
20:25:28 <AnMaster> I'm unable to find anything newer than 2005
20:26:34 <fizzie> basilisk2 (0.9.20070407-1) unstable; urgency=low
20:26:34 <fizzie> * New upstream CVS snapshot.
20:26:34 <fizzie> + Bugfixes and improvements for 64bit host archs.
20:26:41 <fizzie> That's what it's built from.
20:32:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, what mac model id did you select in basilisk?
20:32:39 <fizzie> "Quadra 900 (MacOS 8.x)" and 68040, since those were mentioned in a howto; seemed to work.
20:32:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: If is a function, and go and to could be perfectly valid expressions in context.
20:33:01 <pikhq> Still, the third one is not valid Plof.
20:33:02 <fizzie> If you compiled the JIT stuff in, 68040 and enabling JIT might be a good idea too. I didn't bother; it's fast enough anyway.
20:33:12 <pikhq> (not without some crazy PlofBNF hacks, that is)
20:34:00 <fizzie> I'd have tried sheepshaver too, but no-one seems to have bothered to add that to the Debian archives, and I really don't have *any* use for it, so I can't see why to compile it from sources.
20:34:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, BNF hacks? basically extending the compiler?
20:34:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Yes.
20:34:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, or can you someone define it in the code?
20:34:51 <pikhq> Though to be fair, Plof is *designed to do that*.
20:34:58 <AnMaster> do you need to recompile the compiler for it?
20:35:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about the RAM size?
20:35:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: 64 megs should be enough for everyone. (I think that was visible in my screenshot too.)
20:35:48 <pikhq> The grammer of Plof is defined inside of a Plof file.
20:36:12 <pikhq> (well, using a bootstrap grammer defined in bytecode)
20:37:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: If I can find the browser tab.
20:38:11 <AnMaster> anyway I'm rather confused now
20:40:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://wiki.oldos.org/Mac/68kEmulator -- but it's pretty windows-oriented and I think at some parts also contradictory. I just adapted a bit. (Substituted that existing macboot.img for the whole stuffit+floppy-writing nonsense, and hfsutils command-line tools for HFVExplorer.)
20:40:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, where do I put in the floppy image to use
20:40:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, this system lacks a real floppy drive
20:40:45 <fizzie> ~/.basilisk_ii_prefs "floppy /path/to/image"
20:41:17 <fizzie> The configuration dialogs for the X version are a bit limited.
20:41:48 <fizzie> Alternatively run it with "BasiliskII --floppy /path/to" for a one-time use.
20:42:00 <fizzie> "cdrom", but do you need that for something?
20:42:11 <fizzie> I needed it for the Glider 4 image only. :p
20:42:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about the shared with unix thingy?
20:42:59 <fizzie> That's what the config dialog calls "Unix Root" in the Volumes tab.
20:43:10 <fizzie> "extfs" in the config file.
20:43:33 <AnMaster> why doesn't that show up from the floppy
20:43:40 <AnMaster> how do I get the OS image there
20:43:51 <fizzie> The floppy doesn't have that FSM 1.2 thing for the shared-drive.
20:43:58 <fizzie> You need to copy the .smi and .part files to your HD image.
20:44:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, formatting it first with HFS+?
20:44:42 <fizzie> Plain HFS, if you're running System 7. But you can format it by booting from the floppy.
20:44:50 <fizzie> It'll automagically suggest formatting the disk.
20:44:58 <fizzie> I guess hfsutils has a format tool too, though.
20:45:18 <fizzie> (You can create an image file with dd, or in the BasiliskII configuration dialog.)
20:45:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, removing the binhex thingy?
20:45:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, figured out how to create the HD no issue
20:46:01 <fizzie> You get rid of the MacBinary encoding (it's .bin, not .hqx) when copying files from Unix to the HFS image with hfsutils.
20:46:33 <fizzie> Something like hmount + hmkdir inst + hcopy -m .../*.bin :inst + humount.
20:47:29 <fizzie> It's a bit mtools-like (or CVS "login" like) in that it maintains a "current volume and directory" in ~/.hcwd.
20:48:02 <fizzie> Actually I'm not sure whether mtools does that, maybe not.
20:48:04 <AnMaster> hcopy: "System_7.5.3_19of19.part.bin": not a directory
20:48:13 <fizzie> You need the destination path too.
20:48:13 <AnMaster> "hcopy -m .../*.bin" seems wrong
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20:48:20 <fizzie> : or :inst or something.
20:48:33 <fizzie> (":" for current-directory, ":inst" if you hmkdir'd a place for the files.)
20:49:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, and then just the installers from Mac HD?
20:49:22 <AnMaster> the tutorial talks about copying the system dir
20:49:37 <fizzie> I don't think so; I think the installer will create one.
20:49:40 <fizzie> But you can if you want.
20:50:11 <fizzie> I did, but really, I don't think it matters much.
20:51:29 <fizzie> In both cases you should be able to just run the .smi file on the HD, and then the "Install System software" app from the virtual CD it mounts on the desktop.
20:52:33 <fizzie> I also did a Custom Install with some pseudo-sensible software selections, even though the tutorial warns that the 7.5.5 update won't work with it; I'm not that interested in the update anyway.
20:53:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, yay finally I found a use for 4 GB RAM. ATM FreeBSD, NetBSD VMs are running. And this Basilisk II
20:53:28 <AnMaster> both the *BSD VMs are heavily loaded
20:53:49 <fizzie> System 7.5.3 shutdown and startup are horribly quick too.
20:54:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, on modern hardware yes
20:54:24 <fizzie> Also haven't tried networking yet. It needs a silly custom kernel module for "share a physical Ethernet device" networking, but ethertap virtual-networking might work without that too.
20:54:56 <fizzie> I'm a bit suspicious to whether that works any more, if they haven't updated it since 2007.
20:55:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh now I get a "unimplemented trap" error
20:56:42 <fizzie> Might be some extension, perhaps; the tutorial notes that "A/Rose under Networking and Extensions" is incompatible with Basilisk.
20:57:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, 1024x600 . I wonder what sort of wide screen that is
20:58:04 <AnMaster> removing the extension solved it
20:58:05 <fizzie> I've been running it with the classic 512x384 screen.
20:58:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, too small on a high dpi screen
20:59:53 <fizzie> Could maybe play around with the networking, but there aren't *that* many interesting 68k-mac Interwebby programs. iCab 2.9.9, IE 3.something, Netscape 3 as far as browsers go.
21:00:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, does this os have apple script?
21:01:10 <fizzie> There were some AppleScript-related things in the installer, yes.
21:01:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wonder if I could get norton speeddisk the defragment thing to run on this
21:02:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, that iso of the game you mentioned. Where?
21:02:20 <AnMaster> it seemed too messy. surely you could share?
21:02:32 <AnMaster> since it was released without charge now
21:03:20 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/glider_4.iso possibly. I guess you could run BasiliskII as "BasiliskII --cdrom /path/to/glider_4.iso" for a one-time copy-to-HD use.
21:04:20 <AnMaster> but took 20 seconds to download
21:04:49 <fizzie> That's what consumer ADSL is like, you know.
21:04:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw those --floppy and --cdrom seems to be saved
21:05:04 <fizzie> Right, I wondered about that.
21:06:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, what keys to rebuild desktop sort of thing?
21:06:20 <fizzie> It's 1 Mbps outwards; theoretically that should get something like 122 kB/s at most.
21:07:13 <fizzie> Don't know about that.
21:08:06 <fizzie> I don't even quite know how it maps command/option to ctrl/alt. (Probably just like that.)
21:08:55 <fizzie> "On PC-style keyboards, "Alt" is the Mac "Command" key, while the "Windows" key is the Mac "Option" key.". Well, that's what the README says. It might not work out like that.
21:10:03 <fizzie> Command-option during booting or something.
21:10:15 <fizzie> There might've been some messing-around with extensions though.
21:10:21 <fizzie> The interwebs probably know more than me.
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21:44:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you manage to get that system 7.5.5 update to work?
21:44:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, makes disk image unbootable for me
21:44:33 <fizzie> Not needed for Glider 4. :p
21:44:45 <fizzie> Did you do the Easy Install thing?
21:56:05 <fizzie> The tutorial does say that only Easy Install works with the 7.5.5 update.
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