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00:15:34 <Sgeo> I just saw a glimpse of the AW SDK, and I'm horrified
00:15:47 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm not seeing something here, but the http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Aw_object_click#Usage makes my eyes bleed
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04:43:07 <augur> xkcd has contributed no funny to the world today
04:43:16 <augur> but it HAS contributed a wonderful data visualization technique
04:43:17 <augur> http://infosthetics.com/archives/2009/11/visualizing_movie_characters.html#comments
04:44:00 <Oranjer> dammit, I thought of that like, two days before
04:44:19 <augur> did you follow up your thought by drawing it out and posting it to your webcomic?
04:44:27 <augur> ARE YOU RANDALL MONROE?!
04:44:51 <coppro> Why has sourceforge gotten so bad
04:44:52 <Oranjer> also, I suspect he at least takes more than two days to do each webcomic? maybe?
04:45:10 <augur> http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/timelines/
04:45:33 <augur> one would hpe it does not take more than two days to do the comics
04:45:39 <augur> seeing a show theyre released every two days!
04:45:44 <coppro> augur: EXCEPT HE USE MOVIE LOTR AND NOT THE NOVEL
04:46:25 <augur> how do you even know
04:46:32 <coppro> augur: Saruman dies in Isengard
04:46:53 <coppro> in the book, he goes to the Shire
04:47:36 <augur> i have not read the book
04:47:58 <coppro> cardinal sin of eekery
04:48:35 <Oranjer> I have only read The Hobbit
04:48:41 <augur> my reading is limited to non-fiction
04:48:49 <Oranjer> I also forgot to return that book to the library, several years ago
04:48:52 <augur> i cant stay interested in fiction writing
04:49:06 <coppro> not a cardinal sin, then, but still bad
04:49:09 <Oranjer> also, augur, I've had trouble reading fiction lately
04:50:49 <Oranjer> anyway, I have to go to sleep
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06:44:52 * Warrigal ponders how to compile Unlambda.
06:45:08 <Warrigal> To compile Unlambda, one must first compile to Unlambda.
06:46:01 <madbrain> lua has a function that compiles a program from a string
06:46:20 <madbrain> so translate the unlambda program into lua and run that
06:50:22 <Warrigal> I want to compile it into a language into which it is not that easy to compile stuff like Unlambda.
06:50:43 <Warrigal> I think I want to compile between Unlambda and BF.
06:52:17 <Warrigal> Then again, I'd rather come up with some languages that can actually be compiled nicely.
06:56:18 <madbrain> unlambda in bf sounds pretty damn hard though :D
06:56:44 <Warrigal> Hmm, the esolangs Wikipedia has articles about are LOLCODE, Befunge, Brainfuck, Chef, FALSE, the OISC gang, Piet, Shakespeare, Whitespace, INTERCAL, and Taxi.
06:56:45 <madbrain> it involves, what, tail call recursion, garbage collecting
06:59:46 <Warrigal> I'm going to ignore all of those but Befunge, Brainfuck, FALSE, and OISC.
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07:01:21 <madbrain> unlambda is my favorite by far
07:01:43 <madbrain> followed by brainfuck probably
07:02:28 <Warrigal> Then I'm going to add /// and Unlambda.
07:05:05 <Warrigal> Then I'm going to refine OISC into Subleq.
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07:08:30 <Warrigal> So that makes the list Befunge, Brainfuck, Subleq, ///, Unlambda. A fun bunch.
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10:44:17 <ais523> ugh, this website has the stupidest validation ever
10:45:02 <ais523> basically, every letter you type in the forms, it sends off an AJAX request to the server to verify what you wrote
10:45:22 <ais523> even more fun, if you type more than a few characters in a second, it thinks you're trying to DOS it with all those AJAX requests
10:45:57 <ais523> also, it doesn't allow punctuation marks at all
10:46:11 <ais523> even in textboxes where you'd expect them to be used, such as "how did you hear about us"
10:46:38 <AnMaster> ais523, why answer the form then?
10:46:48 <ais523> AnMaster: trying to create an account, and opencores.org
10:47:10 <ais523> AnMaster: open-source hardware
10:47:19 <AnMaster> I see. File a bug report about the web form then
10:47:51 <AnMaster> if it is open source I would expect them to not just ignore it
10:47:51 <ais523> AnMaster: nowhere obvious to file it, there isn't even an obvious contact address
10:48:11 <ais523> the website doesn't /act/ open-source
10:48:21 <AnMaster> http://opencores.org/opencores,contact ?
10:48:23 <ais523> I think it's made by people used to closed hardware support that don't get open source
10:48:44 <AnMaster> ais523, large company behind it?
10:48:53 <ais523> so almost certainly, they don't really get what they're doing
10:49:06 <AnMaster> ais523, why create an account then?
10:49:15 <ais523> IIRC you need one to download from it
10:49:21 <ais523> their account-creation system isn't even automated
10:49:24 <ais523> it seems it was sent off to a human
10:49:38 <ais523> gah, this FAQ is unusable
10:49:46 <ais523> it shows the answers to the questions on-hover
10:50:03 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and it does that even with js turned off
10:50:05 <ais523> which means that when you stop using one question and have a look at the next, the question moves so it's no longer under your mouse and collapses again
10:50:07 <AnMaster> which means they used css for it
10:50:23 <ais523> this place is like a mix of best practices and worst practices...
10:50:53 <ais523> AnMaster: things like graceful fallback for no JS
10:51:07 <ais523> "OpenCores reserves the right to charge for advertising or SPAM sent to any mailing list"
10:51:48 <AnMaster> well. not very good in lynx. But the menu looks ok
10:51:56 <AnMaster> too little spacing between headers though
10:52:06 <AnMaster> like no blank line between paragraphs
10:52:16 <AnMaster> ais523, of their own lists I assume
10:52:27 <ais523> I'm more amused at the naivety of it all
10:53:34 <AnMaster> well. I have to leave soon. To take the bus. Test in discrete math this afternoon.
10:54:15 <AnMaster> there are two words in English that are very similar, but the same word in Swedish
10:54:20 <ais523> "discrete" = opposite of continuous
10:54:29 <ais523> "discreet" = without causing a fuss about it
10:54:45 <AnMaster> ais523, same word for both in Swedish + very similar in English
10:55:00 <AnMaster> I'm sure you can understand my confusion about the terminology in English
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12:47:36 <oerjan> 20:43:07 <augur> xkcd has contributed no funny to the world today
12:47:36 <oerjan> 20:43:16 <augur> but it HAS contributed a wonderful data visualization technique
12:48:04 <oerjan> that was about my thought too - i was annoyed there was no way to zoom in :D
12:48:16 * ais523 is too lazy to actually focus a web browser to go there
12:48:20 <ais523> and clicks on a link in IRC instead
12:48:54 <oerjan> i am assuming this was actually yesterday's xkcd - checking now
12:50:18 <oerjan> oh now there is a zoom
12:52:08 <fizzie> There was a zoom yesterday too; at least yesterday our time zone, maybe not when you visited it.
12:52:23 <oerjan> hm maybe i managed somehow to miss it
12:52:51 <ais523> 657 is pretty impressive
12:52:55 <oerjan> i may have been confused by the hover text
12:52:56 <fizzie> And, well; when the title is "Movie Narrative Charts", you can't really complain that much about using the movie LOTR.
12:57:00 <ais523> the funny is the ones at the bottom right, I think
12:59:32 <fizzie> The labels in the Jurassic Park graphs did make me smile; especially the "must go faster" one. It is very evocative of the scene.
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14:47:43 <ais523> <opencores> You dont have permissions to view this page. You might need to login or your account might be disabled.
14:47:47 <ais523> nice ambiguous sentence, there
14:56:13 <ais523> even more fun, someone's storing tarballs (well, .zip files) in svn, rather than the original files
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15:33:17 <ais523> left the lecture halfway through, it was that bad
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15:33:28 <ais523> well, 10 seconds before halfway, I didn't quite time it correctly
15:35:07 <augur> http://abc.go.com/shows/v/
15:35:12 <augur> i wish this would just happen already
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17:31:15 <AnMaster> augur, there is a way to zoom in. click the image
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18:10:32 <augur> anmaster: i didnt say that.
18:10:57 <AnMaster> oh indeed. oerjan had stopped quoting at that point
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18:51:55 <AnMaster> Gregor, what was the name of that chroot thing you used?
18:56:22 <fizzie> [0x7f6e0c0081b8] v4l2 demux error: cannot open video device '/dev/video1' (No space left on device)
18:56:22 <fizzie> That's a bit strange error from a video device. (I'm sure it has some sort of silly meaning, but anyway.)
18:59:10 <ais523_> woah, that was really strange
18:59:20 <ais523_> most of the applications I have segfaulted, then the kernel paniced
18:59:28 <ais523_> and the syslog is in the wrong format and talks about a Trojan
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19:00:40 <fizzie> ohci_hcd 0000:00:12.1: leak ed ffff8800378152d0 (#81) state 2
19:00:40 <fizzie> usb 4-2: usb_submit_urb() failed, error -28
19:00:40 <fizzie> It seems to be usb_submit_urb that returns ENOSPC. Don't know why.
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19:01:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and time for clean reinstall + restore files you can verify by hand from backups
19:01:15 <ais523> <syslog> 350720:6cfac1d7dfe66763441977dc8bcaf41c:Trojan.Agent-116143
19:01:25 <ais523> no, that isn't the format syslog /should/ be in
19:01:30 <ais523> I think an actual trojan is unlikely
19:01:37 <ais523> one thing I'm wondering about is ClamAV going mad
19:01:44 <ais523> and accidentally dumping part of its virus database into memory
19:01:53 <ais523> and causing a panic, and that bit ended up getting saved to syslog
19:02:04 <AnMaster> ais523, but what about all those other apps?
19:03:14 <ais523> let me paste the relevant pastebin section
19:03:51 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1655187
19:04:04 <ais523> atm, I'm grepping the entire hard drive for "Trojan.Agent-", and also doing a virus scan
19:04:11 <ais523> *the relevant syslog section
19:05:21 <ais523> my /theory/ is that ClamAV's virus database contains a line that looks like that, and that it somehow got dumped to sylog
19:05:44 <fizzie> It's nice to have two drivers for this webcam (sn9c102 and gspca_sonixj) of which only one works. Should make some rules to prioritize the working one in module-autoloading.
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19:06:16 <AnMaster> ais523, I would also run memtest btw
19:06:33 <ais523> and a few bitflips are unlikely to cause /that/
19:06:41 <AnMaster> ais523, kernel messed up big I suspect
19:06:41 <ais523> I think software bugs are more likely
19:07:04 <AnMaster> ais523, should try to reproduce and file a bug report
19:07:10 <ais523> actually, it's even possible that the offending lines were added to the syslog by fsck
19:07:17 <ais523> AnMaster: where would it be?
19:07:32 <AnMaster> ais523, eh wait, fsck had to fix something that bad?
19:07:39 <ais523> it ran after I restarted it
19:07:46 <ais523> and cleaned up loads of inodes
19:07:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I would run, from a cd, some verifier tool
19:07:57 <ais523> heh, what if the ext3 journal got corrupted?
19:08:02 <AnMaster> to check that all packages have correct md5sum
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19:08:32 <AnMaster> ais523, also use smartctl in case disk is dying
19:08:37 <ais523> don't have a relatively recent one on me
19:09:09 <AnMaster> ais523, an older one could work. Point is, something that you can run a tool like debsums on (iirc you use a debian based distro?
19:09:45 <ais523> Palimpsest says the disk is fine
19:10:05 <ais523> GUI SMART-parameter extractor thing
19:10:40 <AnMaster> ais523, manually check the error log
19:11:09 <ais523> I don't have smartctl installed
19:11:19 <AnMaster> ais523, how would this Palimpsest read things then
19:11:27 <ais523> same way smartctl does, presumably
19:11:42 <AnMaster> ais523, well look at the SMART error log and such
19:12:31 <ais523> doesn't seem to have an option to
19:14:45 <AnMaster> ais523, sounds like a shit tool
19:15:00 <ais523> well, it was on here as part of the default distribution
19:15:09 <ais523> I think it's mostly meant for setting up RAIDs and fscking drives and so on
19:16:32 <AnMaster> cp /dev/urandom /tmp/chroot/dev
19:16:37 <AnMaster> you would think that would work
19:16:44 <AnMaster> cp doesn't copy the special file
19:17:12 <AnMaster> cat /dev/urandom > /tmp/chroot/dev/urandom
19:19:19 <ais523> you can use ls -l and mknod to do the same thing
19:19:34 * ais523 wonders if mknod can be used to escape from a chroot if you have root
19:20:19 <AnMaster> ais523, just trying to get su to work inside the chroot
19:20:27 <AnMaster> so I can drop privs in there and run the thing I need
19:20:33 <ais523> why does su need /dev/urandom?
19:20:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it is the dynamic linker that does.
19:20:52 <AnMaster> heap randomisation or something is my guess
19:21:03 <AnMaster> it happens before several mprotect calls
19:28:08 <AnMaster> ais523, argh ubuntu: su wants dbus (indirectly)
19:30:44 <pikhq> PAM makes things complex. Hooray.
19:32:16 <AnMaster> # chroot /opt/chroot /bin/su foo
19:32:16 <AnMaster> su: must be run from a terminal
19:32:38 <AnMaster> 2) it wanted to be run from a terminal the second time only
19:32:49 <AnMaster> just did that to test. su isn't suid in there
19:36:26 * AnMaster did that to run unstuff with no harm
19:36:32 <AnMaster> basically I don't trust that thing one bit
19:36:40 <AnMaster> oh yeah this was in a VM on top of it
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19:46:23 <AnMaster> ais523, for working with *.sit
19:46:40 <AnMaster> only option there is on *nix though for recent versions of the file format
19:46:51 <AnMaster> oh and *.sit is used on macs. mostly pre-OS X
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20:03:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, I got sheepshaver to boot as far as install cd for OS 9 at least
20:04:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, for some reason the disk still get the OS 7 look for the icon
20:04:42 <AnMaster> and no it wasn't formatted there
20:05:09 <AnMaster> argh the cd tells me it can't be used with this computer :/
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20:12:14 <AnMaster> well lets see if the 8.6 CD works
20:23:50 <fizzie> Annoying. There's this composite-video (and mono-audio) "AV cable" for my camera, but the video output seems to be enabled only in playback mode. I could've used it as a much-better-sensor webcam; even blurry composite-video PAL is better than the horrible far-too-dark cheapo webcam otherwise.
20:24:50 <fizzie> The manual says "Even if you set [VIDEO OUT] to [PAL], the output signal will still be NTSC in the recording mode", which sounds like there should be something going out in the other mode too, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
20:29:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean there is no signal at all in the recording mode?
20:29:36 <AnMaster> even though manual says there will be?
20:30:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, idea: use it, then a web cam on the LCD screen preview XD
20:30:48 <fizzie> Well, the manual doesn't exactly say it very clearly, just that one sentence sort of implies it. On the other hand, when it talks about the TV out settings there's a "[playback mode only]" tag in those parts.
20:37:48 <fizzie> I guess they could be using some of the same DSP bits for both showing the moving preview picture on the LCD as well as doing the TV out video signal generation. At least I hope there's a sensible explanation like that; it would be pretty silly if it were just a completely unnecessary programmatic limitation, added in hopes of getting people to buy dedicated video cameras instead.
20:39:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think the latter is more probable
20:40:31 <fizzie> (I'm trying to set up some sort of video recording thing to see whether the cat does anything else than sleeping during the day when we're both at work.)
20:43:44 <AnMaster> okay.. seems "couldn't be installed on this computer" meant "do not emulate so much ram"
20:54:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, installing OS 9 sure is a lot slower than installing OS 7
20:54:59 <AnMaster> btw OS 9 cd did boot on 16 MB RAM but then refused to install
21:03:31 <fizzie> Half a gigabyte is quite a lot.
21:46:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and... sheepshaver is buggy
21:53:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure there are very many alternatives. Rosetta is OS X -only and doesn't run the Classic environment anyway, PearPC doesn't emulate the necessary powermac bits, and I guess qemu's not very complete either, though it does have some powermac peripherals. (At least I can't find many references to running Mac OS with qemu-system-ppc.)
21:53:35 <fizzie> SheepShaver might work better on a powerpc arch, though.
21:55:20 <fizzie> (Though on Linux/PPC you could just run Mac-on-Linux.)
21:56:22 <fizzie> http://mac-on-linux.sourceforge.net/, you know.
21:56:30 <fizzie> It's a bit dead nowadays.
21:57:04 <fizzie> Runs Linux/PPC, Mac OS X or Mac OS 7.5.2 - 9.2.2 on a Linux/PPC host.
21:57:40 <fizzie> But it doesn't do PowerPC emulation at all, so you can't run it on an Intel box, so I guess people have lost interest after Apple did the Intel switch.
21:58:19 <fizzie> I tried it on that Performa, actually, and it seemed to work reasonably well. Haven't tried on the iBook, though.
21:59:06 <AnMaster> ooh I found a cd with norton utilities for mac
21:59:19 <AnMaster> there is no "symantec" mentioned there
21:59:40 <AnMaster> oh and it has some disk checker and some disk defrag apps iirc
22:04:19 <AnMaster> gah can't get it to boot from a cd now :/
22:07:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, it mostly seems that it is mostly stable when you mostly don't access that "Unix" thing
22:18:09 <pikhq> If you could manage to get qemu-user to work, then you could do the MISC binary format support thing and get PPC binary emulation going...
22:18:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, so you can run mac binaries there?
22:18:43 <AnMaster> that is what I'm interested in
22:19:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, new enough to be PPC only
22:19:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, would need classic still
22:19:32 <AnMaster> since it is PPC classic that is relevant here
22:20:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is "freaking tricky" then?
22:20:24 <pikhq> qemu-user-ppc and Mac-on-Linux is the only way I can think of to do it...
22:20:37 <AnMaster> well.. sheepshaver kind of works
22:20:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: Run PPC non-Unix Mac binaries.
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22:21:25 <AnMaster> http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/
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22:24:51 <fizzie> Oh yes, those have been released quite a while ago.
22:25:16 <fizzie> I had them installed on the Performa, for example (I *do* keep talking about it, but it's your fault really); you get a reasonably shell-like thing with it.
22:25:36 <pikhq> And a Make-alike, IIRC.
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22:31:28 <AnMaster> Oranjer, please please stop saying "what" or such as often
22:31:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, I completely forgot how it worked though
22:32:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I do keep wondering why ftp downloads from apple.com are running at around 30 K/s
22:38:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, any luck with networking in it?
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22:48:04 <AnMaster> now apple's ftp is messing up sometimes wanting login
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22:51:52 <ais523> AnMaster: debsums did find one file (and its manpage) that was wrong, but it was pdftoppm, in poppler-utils
22:52:14 <ais523> the manpage looked normal, so I think the wrong version got installed somehow
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