←2010-01-06 2010-01-07 2010-01-08→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:06 <ehird> oerjan: no, he believes in everyone staying alive at all costs, not just himself
00:00:31 <ehird> however, U(singularity) + U(Eliezer Yudkowsky dying) >>> 0
00:00:52 <Sgeo_> ">>>"?
00:00:55 <Sgeo_> U()?
00:00:58 * oerjan assumes U is utility
00:01:04 <ehird> yes
00:01:07 <Sgeo_> o.O u() reminded me of MUSHcode
00:01:19 <ehird> >>> is "So much above you wouldn't believe it EVERRRRRRRR"
00:01:20 * Sgeo_ promptly finds the nearest gun and shoots himself
00:02:02 <oerjan> Sgeo_, on the other hand, would kill himself to be uploaded to a game. well i guess it's the same thing...
00:02:17 <Sgeo_> Then again, I tend to do that with any language that I've learned and since forgotten
00:02:20 <Sgeo_> Including Java
00:02:24 <ehird> Only if it features bad graphics and was most popular 2003-2005
00:02:29 <Sgeo_> lol
00:02:32 <ehird> And it has to have no real objectives, just virtual reality
00:02:39 <ehird> And it has to be abandoned too
00:03:02 <Sgeo_> Did I mention that this project is in Active Worlds?
00:03:12 <ehird> see
00:03:36 <Sgeo_> Actually, I'd say AW was more popular before 2002
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00:05:19 <ehird> oreos are tasty
00:07:01 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:11:22 <ehird> Wow.
00:11:26 <ehird> Windows XP has sloppy focus.
00:11:48 <ehird> Tweak UI → Mouse → X-Mouse → [X] Activation follows mouse
00:20:50 * Sgeo_ goes to look at the old code from this giu
00:20:51 <Sgeo_> guy
00:21:31 <Sgeo_> Also, when I was faced with the same problem (that's pushing the need in his mind for multi-threading for now), I came up with what was basically an ugly hack to abuse Python's yield statement
00:21:34 <Sgeo_> So :/
00:23:00 <coppro> what is the problem?
00:23:18 <Sgeo_> Event handlers need to be able to pause for a certain amount of time
00:23:24 <Sgeo_> Or do something similar
00:23:56 <Sgeo_> In my Python code, I made it so that using a @sleeper decorator meant that the function could, say
00:23:59 <Sgeo_> yield 1000
00:24:09 <Sgeo_> And it would appear to the event handler that it would be sleeping for 1000ms
00:24:25 <Sgeo_> But it's actually dealt with in a scheduler I wrote
00:24:34 <Sgeo_> So that it could be single-threaded
00:24:47 <Sgeo_> Hold on, I'll show you the implementation
00:26:06 <ehird> Sgeo_: that's just cooperatiive scheduling
00:26:09 <ehird> *cooperative
00:26:10 <Sgeo_> http://codepad.org/3RnWliF9
00:26:14 <ehird> if you invented that without knowing what it is...
00:26:21 <ehird> congratulations; you're as intelligent as the first guy to think of it
00:26:55 <Sgeo_> ehird, but the yield "magic" is tightly integrated into the scheduler. And I might not have known the term, but I might have seen it someplace
00:27:01 * ehird crosses fingers, submits to domination by windows genuine advantage
00:27:05 <ehird> please, please let this crack have worked
00:27:33 <ehird> Sgeo_: Using coroutines as cooperative threads is common stuff, all you did was add an extra value that made the scheduler not resume for that amount of time.
00:27:37 <ehird> It's not a hack in any way.
00:28:09 <coppro> ehird: it's a hack because he abuses a language feature for it
00:28:16 <ehird> Uh, no.
00:28:22 <ehird> Python generators *are* coroutines.
00:29:05 <coppro> sure
00:29:06 * Sgeo_ feels validated
00:29:46 <SimonRC> with python generators you can only yield at the top-level function right?
00:29:58 <Sgeo_> SimonRC, what?
00:29:59 <ehird> SimonRC: as opposed to?
00:30:02 <ehird> like, nested functions?
00:30:13 <ehird> def a() { def b() { yield 3 } b() }
00:30:16 <SimonRC> no
00:30:28 <Sgeo_> from __future__ import braces
00:31:08 <SimonRC> if foo has a yield in it, then that yeild can't be factored out into another function bar, because then bar would become a generator itself
00:31:26 <ehird> ah.
00:31:30 <ehird> yes, that is true
00:31:36 <ehird> However
00:31:37 <SimonRC> however, if you used a channel to communicate, you could factor out yielding
00:31:38 <ehird> yield is just sugar
00:31:45 <SimonRC> sugar for what?
00:31:53 <ehird> ... no, wait
00:31:57 <ehird> I was thinking of generators
00:32:58 <SimonRC> I don't know much about this, but I remembered that caveat form somewhere.
00:33:05 <ehird> i think you are right.
00:34:56 <ehird> coppro: you're a filthy wants-to-pay-microsoft-for-windows person but even you think the way they do licensing and Windows Genuine Advantage is ridiculous and draconian right? because if not i'm afraid i can't continue considering you human
00:35:00 * SimonRC like characters with Special Ability: Recall useless shit you read somewhere.
00:35:17 <coppro> ehird: correct
00:35:23 <ehird> coppro: thank you
00:35:24 <coppro> also, I think Microsoft overcharges
00:35:30 <coppro> by a lot
00:35:46 * Sgeo_ once considered getting a crack for this
00:35:47 <SimonRC> but they do seem to need all thatmoney
00:35:52 <ehird> coppro: please repent on my behalf to the copyright gods, I pirated windows and several serial keys and WGA cracks because they refused to let me use my legit copy because i'd used it 5 times before
00:35:53 <SimonRC> they use it after all
00:36:01 <ehird> i hope you can personally forgive me.
00:36:02 <ehird> :D
00:36:03 <Sgeo_> copy of Windows. IE8 was installed when I did a repair install, and that apparently cxauses problems
00:36:10 <coppro> ehird: can't you phone them?
00:36:12 <Sgeo_> So I uninstalled IE8 and problem solved
00:36:19 <coppro> ehird: also, I support your cause
00:36:36 <ehird> coppro: yeah, but i don't feel like i should have to pay phone charges (ok it's not me who pays them) so i can use a product that was legally bought
00:36:54 <coppro> isn't it toll-free?
00:37:04 <ehird> maybe in america, I actually have no idea here
00:37:20 <ehird> it's past midnight, anyway, and these fun escapades rarely last more than a day or two
00:37:31 * SimonRC goes to bed
00:37:46 * Sgeo_ is addicted to the Spaceballs theme
00:37:50 <ehird> ok i'm gonna have to download a wga overrider thingy
00:38:05 <ehird> seems to be the only way to use ms update
00:39:32 <coppro> ehird: IIRC, the thing that complains about your key being overused has a phone number
00:39:53 <coppro> I've never had trouble activating over the phone
00:40:13 <coppro> it's probably easier than cracking too
00:40:14 <ehird> yeah i know, but honestly this is basically equivalent, except i violate a horribly broken law anyway
00:40:26 <ehird> i'm giving microsoft the exact same amount of money i would if i did it that way
00:40:39 <ehird> so realistically, microsoft probably don't actually care, as an entity, all that much
00:41:07 <ehird> (considering that corporations, as a collective entity, only care about profit)
00:42:36 <coppro> I'm generally more comfortable running uncracked software where I can avoid it
00:42:42 <coppro> err
00:42:44 <coppro> you know what I mean
00:42:55 <coppro> (not that I won't crack software)
00:42:59 <ehird> yeah but you have a silly brain that believes in intellectual property and whatnot!
00:43:04 <ehird> unless you mean in the evil malware sense
00:44:23 <ehird> ugh, where the fuck is that wga overrider
00:45:44 * Sgeo_ vaguly wonders why this guy saw fit to include a form
00:46:35 <coppro> ehird: I believe that, fundamentally, intellectual property laws are a good thing. That doesn't stop me from violating the current ones
00:46:47 <Sgeo_> This guy has also bitched about the guy who made the .NET wrapper bitching about the name of the variable holding the instance. This guy named it sdk
00:46:58 <coppro> O_o
00:48:05 <Sgeo_> cmd.CommandText = "SELECT * FROM [Userstats] WHERE [citnum] = '" + Citizen.ToString() + "'";
00:48:39 <ehird> Sgeo_: stop reading that code. your brain will melt
00:48:54 <coppro> aah
00:49:06 <Sgeo_> Well, to be fair, citizen names shouldn't include single-quotes.. I think
00:49:40 <ehird> no that's not fair
00:49:57 <ehird> oh cool you can get windows security updates and shizz w/o wga
00:50:12 <ehird> am happy
00:51:31 <ehird> ehh
00:51:36 <ehird> except some upd— you know what
00:51:42 <ehird> coppro: do you keep logs of this channel?
00:51:53 <coppro> ehird: not personally, no
00:51:57 <ehird> dammit
00:51:58 <ehird> Sgeo_: you?
00:52:02 <coppro> why?
00:52:08 <Sgeo_> ehird, topic
00:52:11 <ehird> deewiant mentioned a wga disabler thingy that i used before and it worked great :-)
00:52:17 <Sgeo_> Yes, I do keep logs, somewhere
00:52:21 <coppro> there's only one channel I log and that's because I need to
00:52:26 <Sgeo_> But never really used them
00:52:37 <ehird> Sgeo_: do you know how to grep
00:52:47 <coppro> wget + grep gg
00:52:50 <Sgeo_> ehird, don't feel like installing MinGW or whatever
00:52:59 <ehird> coppro: yeah but i'd have to grep a lot
00:53:35 <coppro> ehird: script
00:53:44 <ehird> too much work, could just try googling instead
00:53:54 <coppro> or could try phoning
00:54:21 <ehird> 00:53, I'm 14 but sound like I'm 12, and I don't know where the CD is
00:54:24 <ehird> *but sound
00:54:29 <Sgeo_> Sgeo:What does that line look like in the new versiom?
00:54:29 <Sgeo_> Epsilion:cmd.CommandText = "SELECT * FROM [Userstats] WHERE [citnum] = @citnum";
00:54:31 <ehird> Phoning is... not happeniing.
00:54:36 <ehird> *happening
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00:56:41 <Sgeo_> Crud, shouldn't have revealed this guy's nick
00:56:48 <ehird> why not
00:57:04 <ehird> tell him he doesn't know how to spell epsilon btw
00:57:06 <coppro> Sgeo_: Is that C# there?
00:57:20 <Sgeo_> coppro, yes
00:57:26 <coppro> O_o
00:57:28 <coppro> FAIL
00:57:32 <Sgeo_> Why?
00:57:53 <coppro> LINQ exists for a reason
00:58:07 <oerjan> WAIL
00:58:11 <Sgeo_> Does LINQ work with SQLite? Can LINQ insert?
00:58:14 <Sgeo_> ^doesn't know
00:58:36 <Asztal> Linq-to-SQL is deprecated, I think. It probably still works though.
00:59:03 <pikhq> LINQ is just monads.
00:59:52 <coppro> LINQ is not superbly exciting. It is, however, better than using strings.
01:00:14 <ehird> no, LINQ is just filter + map + stuff
01:00:44 <pikhq> Monadically.
01:00:56 <ehird> how is it monadic
01:01:19 <pikhq> Lemme pull it up.
01:01:45 <pikhq> http://blogs.msdn.com/wesdyer/archive/2008/01/11/the-marvels-of-monads.aspx
01:01:49 <Asztal> (>>=) is SelectMany(), fmap is Select(), return is different for each one.
01:02:04 <ehird> Okay then
01:02:19 <pikhq> And it's monad comprehensions instead of do notation.
01:02:20 <ehird> pikhq: that does not say how linq is it
01:02:21 <Asztal> My parsec-in-C# used it. (It was still ugly.)
01:02:29 <ehird> well
01:02:30 <ehird> sorta
01:03:08 <pikhq> It does halfway down.
01:03:32 <pikhq> They screwed it up by making return different for reach one, though.
01:04:34 <oerjan> you need full type inference to make return work, i think...
01:04:49 <oerjan> (with type classes)
01:04:50 * Sgeo_ goes to open the new version
01:04:52 <pikhq> Mmm, probably.
01:05:17 <pikhq> oerjan: Well, either type inference or a *lot* of type notations.
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01:06:59 <ehird> TACHYONS
01:07:12 <oerjan> again?
01:07:19 <ehird> AGAIN
01:07:19 <oerjan> or is that, yet?
01:07:32 <ehird> Locks; what they bring tomorrow is exodus.
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01:09:02 <ehird> (oerjan: you are contractually obligated to continue)
01:09:14 <oerjan> Bah; you cannot force me.
01:09:32 <ehird> Unstoppable; a force that can force.
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01:10:07 <oerjan> Unmovable; a heavy lift.
01:10:51 <ehird> Edible; intrepidable though they are.
01:11:56 <oerjan> Triffids; in soviet russia they eat YOU
01:12:33 <ehird> Metaphysics; OH HOW HOLY THEY'VE BECOME
01:12:54 <oerjan> Holiness; what you get with enough bullets.
01:13:26 <ehird> Colonoscopy; delicious and good for you.
01:14:11 <oerjan> Delirium; the scope of colonies.
01:14:44 <ehird> Binge; a reimplementation of the search engine in E (http://erights.org/)
01:15:27 <oerjan> Rights; what remains when nothing is left.
01:16:34 <ehird> Wrongs; what you get when you have all the rights.
01:16:49 <ehird> Gödel's theorem as a political statement? WHYEVER THE FUCK NOT.
01:17:44 <oerjan> Politics; a paradox of hypocrisy.
01:18:32 <ehird> Polyticks; many blood suckers.
01:19:40 <oerjan> Poll tax; see above.
01:20:06 <ehird> Altercation; let's start rhyming now, stagflation.
01:20:38 <oerjan> Stag; running across the nation.
01:21:06 <ehird> Palo Alto; two words, it's a fucking rebel station.
01:22:17 <ehird> So hey, it turns out that you don't have to deal with ANY of the Microsoft Update shit.
01:22:39 <ehird> Just set updates to notify-but-don't-download-or-install, uncheck WGA the first time it appears, and install away.
01:23:17 <oerjan> Nail polish; Altered pale stallion.
01:25:23 <ehird> Hexagon; retards all depleted by the bullion.
01:27:11 <oerjan> Pentagon; retards blowing up mussels.
01:27:27 <ehird> Retards; topic of the last two... bussels.
01:27:52 <oerjan> Bussels; heck if i know.
01:28:40 <ehird> UNTO; CRAPSHITT OF THE
01:28:43 <ehird>
01:29:07 <oerjan> GOTO; MONSTER DIJKSTRA
01:29:30 <ehird> OAIJSFIODSFJKst; tdio0rfk
01:29:49 <oerjan> arf; arf arf arf arf.
01:30:13 <ehird> ugh; grunt ug ug grraah
01:30:52 <oerjan> Mellifluous; loquacious multisyllabicism.
01:31:10 <ehird> haha man this would be hilarious if i wasn't pretty sure this guy is serious:
01:31:12 <ehird> [[That’s because the concept of “gaming” as distinct from work is characteristic of PC-type lifestyles. By contrast, we Mac users are at play in the very act of expressing ourselves creatively; we don’t need to compartmentalize our playtime into brief intervals of fun, as PC users must. CS4 is our arcade, Xcode our enduring Halo 3.]]
01:31:48 <oerjan> Batshit; insanity drug.
01:32:11 <ehird> Oligarchy; patriarchy monogamous homoiconicism.
01:33:44 <Sgeo_> Not entirely sure why e felt a need to prefix NPC_ in front of all the entries of an enum called NPCType
01:33:50 <oerjan> Garlic oil; iconic matron product.
01:34:14 <coppro> Sgeo_: in C#?
01:34:17 <Sgeo_> coppro, yes
01:34:22 <coppro> lol
01:34:29 <Sgeo_> he doesn't do similar with other enums
01:43:30 <ehird> hahaaaaaaa sp3 is installing with no wga in site
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01:48:04 <coppro> I suppose that choice of homophone is in fact appropriate
02:14:47 * Sgeo_ is in love with the way events work in .NET
02:16:22 <coppro> what specifically?
02:18:02 <Sgeo_> Everything, I think
02:18:15 <Sgeo_> The += to add to the methods called by an event handler
02:18:22 <Sgeo_> And everything follows that convention
02:18:40 <coppro> uh huh
02:18:47 <coppro> I've never really seen them as anything magic
02:18:52 <coppro> just as a nice signals/slots implementation
02:22:51 <ehird> bye
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03:16:56 <Sgeo_> Whee! My C# code's working better than the supposedly equiv. Python code
03:35:23 <coppro> wrong
04:21:47 <Sgeo_> lol
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05:03:32 * Sgeo_ is starting to get somewhat comfortable with C#
05:03:41 <coppro> poor thing
05:04:00 <Sgeo_> Well, I love Visual C# Express's Object Browser
05:04:08 <Sgeo_> I love functional autocompletion
05:04:24 <coppro> autocomplete is nice
05:04:27 <coppro> but orthogonal to the language
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05:04:35 <coppro> never used the Object Browser
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06:34:48 <Sgeo_> I like the way C# makes me think about reusability and modularity
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06:37:35 <Sgeo_> I think I may be succumbing to Stockholm syndrome
06:38:08 <coppro> from a point of language usability, C# is an interesting language
06:42:11 <coppro> it's definitely designed around... hmm... what's the word
06:42:32 <coppro> quick workflow I think
06:44:35 <coppro> the only problem is that from a design standpoint it has a lot of flaws that get passed off as features...
06:44:41 <coppro> such is the world of corporate programming :(
06:50:56 <Sgeo_> Flaws such as?
06:51:23 <coppro> a /lot/ of method names with magic properties that aren't obvious at all
06:51:59 <coppro> anything magic should have some indication of its magicness
06:53:07 <coppro> the value/reference model is fundamentally broken
06:53:24 <coppro> since it relies on the programmer to check the documentation to see what's going on
06:53:33 <coppro> (or on compile errors)
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07:04:33 <Sgeo_> Good night all
07:05:34 <augur> hey soup
07:05:35 <augur> sup
07:05:39 <augur> sup soup sup
07:05:43 <soupdragon> hello
07:06:29 <soupdragon> an algorithm to parse CCG is much harder than I thought it would be!
07:07:20 <coppro> CCG?
07:16:08 <augur> soupdragon: innit just
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12:30:00 <bdesk> http://github.com/argriffing/Biofuck/blob/master/reverse-complement.bf
12:32:46 <soupdragon> pretty long
12:33:26 <soupdragon> nice
12:35:33 <bdesk> :D
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13:29:28 <ehird> hang on imac display
13:29:33 <ehird> you gotta be good for a month or so yet
13:38:05 <ehird> 22:34:48 <Sgeo_> I like the way C# makes me think about reusability and modularity
13:38:06 <ehird> you know what i said about how you're a good programmer? even if i didn't say that
13:38:06 <ehird> i take it back
13:38:11 <ehird> 22:37:35 <Sgeo_> I think I may be succumbing to Stockholm syndrome
13:38:11 <ehird> very
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14:20:38 <ehird> Huh; avast! antivirus does its initial scan in the Windows boot console thingy (what you get when upgrading service packs, or when booting fails).
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14:43:23 <ehird> "Everyone here will upvote you, obviously because you're all programmers." —the batshit project manager I linked earlier
14:43:45 <ehird> (http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/amc72/since_then_c_has_evolved_considerably_it_has_even/c0icwh8?context=6)
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14:51:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> Huh; avast! antivirus does its initial scan in the Windows boot console thingy (what you get when upgrading service packs, or when booting fails). <-- hm... well it makes sense
14:57:34 <augur> ehird: i cant help but read your posts in your voice
14:57:39 <augur> and that makes me giggle
14:57:39 <augur> <3
14:59:18 <augur> "Everyone here will upvote you, obviously because you're all programmers."
14:59:32 <augur> HAH. right, you dont think you're better than programmers. ok.
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15:22:57 <soupdragon> I'm not your typical project manager
15:23:23 <soupdragon> who the fuck does she think she is? 22 she probably doesn't even know advanced calculus
15:23:48 <soupdragon> go manage some projects while integrate over a parametric line, bimbo
15:32:49 <ais523> that seems so weird out of context...
15:33:02 <ais523> (and 22 is old enough to have an MSc in mathematics, if required)
15:35:01 <soupdragon> I am dissing this girl from reddit who thinks she is all that
15:35:04 <cheater> who is 22
15:35:37 <ais523> I am, although I'm not who soupdragon is referring to, I think
15:36:16 <soupdragon> target changed to ais523
15:36:19 <soupdragon> beep
15:46:37 <cheater> heh
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16:43:42 <ehird> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/amc72/since_then_c_has_evolved_considerably_it_has_even/c0icwh8?context=6
16:43:58 <ehird> crazy project manager vs. me
16:44:36 <ais523> <ehird> and thanks; if I'm an idiot to a project manager I'm probably doing something right.
16:44:53 <soupdragon> kinds of programming language:
16:44:54 <soupdragon> * An OOP language: C#, C++, Java, etc.
16:44:54 <soupdragon> * A functional language: Haskell, F#, etc.
16:44:54 <soupdragon> * A productive language: Python, Ruby, Javascript, etc.
16:44:58 <ehird> <ais523> <ehird> and thanks; if I'm an idiot to a project manager I'm probably doing something right.
16:45:04 <ehird> soupdragon: lol where's that from
16:45:09 <soupdragon> reddit
16:45:30 <Pthing> your ego is quite masculine
16:45:36 <Pthing> oh you are so smoooove
16:46:07 <ehird> lulz.
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17:21:41 <ehird> http://paulisageek.com/compare/cpu/ this would be more useful if it had a slider
17:21:56 <ehird> "I care more about: Price ----------[]---------- Performance"
17:21:58 <ehird> to change the ordering
17:35:20 * Sgeo_ gets bitten by the fact that apparently C# does care whether or not something is a property or a field
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17:37:53 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, I have a vague memory of that. Was years ago I used C#, and at least a year ago I last did a bug fix in a C# software
17:38:24 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, but it does sound familiar, think I saw some sort of abstraction for meta programming purposes once
17:38:32 <AnMaster> (as in, reflection)
17:42:38 <Sgeo_> Well, that forced me to learn properties fast
17:42:42 <Sgeo_> Which I guess is a good thing
17:54:47 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, using reflection?
17:55:00 <Sgeo_> No
17:55:07 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, oh? then what was the difference
17:55:20 <AnMaster> I only remember it making a difference when using reflection
17:55:28 <AnMaster> possibly also for "ref"
17:55:38 <AnMaster> passing a property by reference doesn't make a lot of sense
17:55:44 <AnMaster> or well it does
17:55:50 <AnMaster> just not too much in C# iirc
17:56:08 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, interfaces can't do fields, so it had to use a property. Since the classes that implemented the inteface used a field instead of a property, it complained
17:56:22 <AnMaster> oh right, interfaces
17:56:26 <AnMaster> had forgot about those
17:56:28 <AnMaster> *shudder*
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18:23:04 <ehird> corman lisp's ide is pretty nice actually
18:23:08 <ehird> not very IDEish at all
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19:17:08 <ehird> has anyone ever installed all non-conflicting packages in debian?
19:17:18 <ehird> (find the largest set of packages you can have installed all at once, install them)
19:17:20 <ehird> that would be fun
19:19:04 <oerjan> that may require zorn's lemma, you know
19:19:44 <ehird> oerjan: just work it out by brute force?
19:20:17 <oerjan> i _think_ that's a *whoosh*
19:20:32 <ehird> yeah i looked it up but couldn't figure out how it related to being a joke :(
19:21:17 <oerjan> if the number of packages were infinite, then zorn's lemma would be exactly what you need to prove a maximal set exists
19:22:02 <soupdragon> when mathematicians encounter a problem they think "I'll use Zorns Lemma", now they have two problems
19:22:38 <oerjan> when mathematicians tell you they need both zorn's lemma and regular expressions, run away as fast as you can
19:22:45 <pikhq> Very good thing that Debian is finite.
19:23:10 <ehird> the reason i say this is
19:23:17 <ehird> i'm telling cygwin to install every single package
19:23:19 <ehird> >:)
19:23:38 <ehird> i guess i'm not really looking forward to the whole downloading-like-a-gig-of-software-i-don't-want bit though
19:25:58 <ehird> (why am i doing this)
19:28:52 <ehird> I think I should cancel this :)
19:29:14 <soupdragon> me too, I was against it the whole time but I was too nervous to speak up about it
19:29:26 <ehird> wat
19:41:20 <ehird> "So I've scanned all 3.8 billion valid IP addresses looking for web servers. Twice. And I have a (8'8"x8'8") colour-coded picture."
19:41:23 <ehird> You a crazy bitch.
19:41:35 <soupdragon> what the fuck!
19:41:37 <soupdragon> pics??
19:41:41 <ehird> http://cs.acadiau.ca/~dbenoit/research/webcensus/Web_Census/Home.html
19:41:47 <ehird> Polling every single IP address. Sheesh.
19:41:57 <soupdragon> that's amazing
19:42:07 <ehird> "Why not arrange the ip addresses in a 16x16 square, for each byte, recursively? That way you'd get fewer thin horizontal lines and more interesting blob shapes. Even better, use a Hilbert curve, like this: http://xkcd.com/195/"
19:42:09 <ehird> man speaks truth
19:42:39 <ehird> soupdragon: also ofc they only poll port 80
19:42:48 <Pthing> reasonably
19:42:52 <ehird> yes
19:43:10 <ehird> and shared hosting companies hosting 5 bajillion sites will show up as like 10 ips
19:43:14 <ehird> still a mammoth task tho
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20:34:47 <ehird> has anyone written a program in CWEB?
20:34:50 <ehird> (not you, knuth)
20:35:00 <ehird> (yes, I am allowed to pretend knuth is in this channel)
20:35:34 <ehird> move over PHP, you have a == idiocy contender in javascript:
20:35:39 <ehird> 255 == { valueOf:function(){ return "0xFF"; } }
20:36:11 <pikhq> == is absolutely retarded in Javascript.
20:36:25 <pikhq> And not commutative!
20:36:50 <ehird> I love how the number 255 is EQUAL TO AN OBJECT WITH A FIELD NAMED "valueOf" WHOSE VALUE IS A FUNCTION RETURNING THE STRING "0xFF".
20:36:52 <ehird> I mean, wow.
20:37:01 <ehird> All PHP does is some nasty string conversion.
20:37:27 <pikhq> ===: because making == work right is too easy.
20:38:08 <ehird> Equality is awfully subtle in a language with user-defined data types that let you distinguish two objects with the same structure.
20:38:51 <ehird> well, not even user-defined data types
20:38:53 <ehird> even just lists
20:39:01 <ehird> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.1 just about covers the different kinds of equality you might want in that case, at the expense of being confusing.
20:39:27 <pikhq> Integer foo = 1000; Integer bar = 1000; foo != bar.
20:39:38 <ehird> That section doesn't even include =, which is numeric equality.
20:39:39 <pikhq> However: Integer foo = 4; Integer bar = 4; foo == bar.
20:39:43 <pikhq> Effing Java.
20:39:48 <soupdragon> hey
20:39:55 <soupdragon> do you have a list of good sci-fi/spec-fi authors?
20:39:59 <ehird> pikhq: lulz
20:40:02 <soupdragon> or especially good books
20:40:03 <ehird> fixnum fail
20:40:16 <ehird> soupdragon: i'd say all the ones i already have but you mostly ignore me :q
20:40:27 <soupdragon> obviously they are already on my list
20:40:54 <pikhq> ehird: In Java, the first creates two Integers, with an argument of 1000. The second copies an Integer out of the Integer cache.
20:40:55 <soupdragon> it's because I'm going to try and get some real ones, not just download
20:40:58 <pikhq> ... Yes, really.
20:41:02 <soupdragon> so there will be less choice
20:41:16 <ehird> soupdragon: as i said
20:41:26 <ehird> soupdragon: Iain M. Banks' the Culture books are supposed to be good
20:41:30 <ehird> pikhq: that's just fixnum vs bignum
20:41:37 <ehird> the only issue is their definition of == :)
20:41:50 <soupdragon> oh yeah Eeyore Banks is good
20:41:57 <soupdragon> I've read some of his
20:41:58 <pikhq> ehird: == is object equality, yeah. Which... Makes no sense for integers.
20:42:04 <ehird> eeyore banks? xD
20:42:18 <ehird> soupdragon: i'm just going to command you to read the ed stories again because, you know, saying something 500 times makes it come true
20:42:36 <soupdragon> I am reading it!!
20:42:44 <soupdragon> I read 2 more chapters today
20:42:59 <ehird> doesn't mean i can't say it more!!
20:43:09 <ehird> i should gzip compress it so i can pack more sayings of it into one irc message
20:44:21 <pikhq> Ah, Sam Hughes.
20:47:18 <ehird> /topic THE OFFICIAL SAM HUGHES CHANNEL all sam hughes all the time
20:47:27 <soupdragon> hehe
20:47:31 <pikhq> :)
20:47:52 * ehird ponders what to punch into virtualbox next
20:50:22 <ehird> using case/esac style endings gets fun with complex constructs
20:50:24 <ehird> elihw!
20:50:39 <ehird> hmm...
20:50:56 <ehird> would DO ... WHILE be DO ... OD WHILE or DO ... OD ELIHW
20:51:19 <soupdragon> shooby dooby dooby do
20:51:41 <ehird> [0] == false // true
20:51:41 <ehird> if ([0]) { /* executes */ }
20:51:44 <ehird> Javascript: HELLS YEAH
20:55:05 <ehird> Here, have a control structure: base/induct.
20:55:23 <ehird> base(_==0, 1) induct(*, _-1)
20:55:40 <soupdragon> is that factorial lol
20:55:51 <ehird> Quite so good chap
20:56:24 <ehird> base(_<2, _) induct(_-1, +, _-2)
20:56:47 <pikhq> Here, have a function: \_->()
20:58:21 <ehird> My control structure beats your function!
20:58:35 <ehird> I think you could actually do this in haskell if written like this:
20:58:55 <ehird> base (==0) 1 $ induct id (*) (subtract 1)
20:59:04 <ehird> Well
20:59:10 <ehird> base (==0) (const 1) $ induct id (*) (subtract 1)
20:59:29 <soupdragon> haskell is factorial complete
20:59:35 <ehird> base (<2) id $ induct (subtract 1) (+) (subtract 2)
20:59:35 <ehird> if x<2 then x else fib (x-1) + fib (x-2)
20:59:40 <ehird> Not the most compelling control structure ever.
21:00:33 <AnMaster> <ehird> corman lisp's ide is pretty nice actually <-- screenshot?
21:00:54 <ehird> Incidentally, a thing I dislike: Recursion by using your own name. You don't use your own name in natural language, you say "I" or "me". A tenuous argument, admittedly, but my real argument is this: If you rename the function, say to create a derived function, you have to change every occurrence or Shit Happens.
21:01:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Just imagine a Windows window with a menu bar, a toolbar, and syntax-highlighted Lisp windows, one of which isn't backed by a real file.
21:01:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> has anyone ever installed all non-conflicting packages in debian? <-- how much disk space would it take?
21:01:43 <AnMaster> give or take half a tb
21:02:03 <soupdragon> idk
21:02:03 <ehird> Hitting Shift+Return (or was it Control+Return? I forget) evaluates the expression at the cursor in the special workspace window, where the result appears.
21:02:04 <AnMaster> ehird, heh
21:02:08 <ehird> (This also lets you use the workspace as a REPL.)
21:02:18 <soupdragon> recursive definitions don't really seem like anything related to natural language to me
21:02:26 <ehird> soupdragon: yeah, that was a junk argument
21:02:30 <ehird> just pay attention to my other one :P
21:02:41 <ehird> i mean essentially it makes the definition not self-contained
21:02:44 <ehird> which is bad
21:02:52 <pikhq> ehird: C++ psuedo-lambdas don't have that issue, amusingly.
21:02:53 <ehird> and it's not even remotely needed, which makes it doubly bad
21:02:57 <pikhq> *this(). Hooray.
21:03:04 <ehird> just have recur be an alias for the current function or whatever
21:03:10 <ehird> or "this" or "self" if you don't give a shit about oop
21:03:23 <ehird> (or if you do give a shit about it make objects closures then this/self work for them :P)
21:03:27 <ehird> or recurse
21:03:33 <ehird> AnMaster: disk space... hmm
21:03:41 <ehird> AnMaster: I guess a hundred gigabytes.
21:03:53 <pikhq> Actually, that's true of C++0x true lambdas, as well.
21:03:53 <ehird> Maybe 300 GB, tops.
21:04:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Nope, not remotely that much
21:04:15 <ehird> http://www.debian.org/mirror/size
21:04:24 <ehird> i386 is merely 34 GiB
21:04:29 <pikhq> (since they're just objects with operator() and all that...)
21:04:42 <ehird> 482 GiB gets you the compressed packages for every architecture, every supported kernel, and all the sources.
21:04:54 <ehird> Debian is... not that big.
21:05:08 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
21:05:23 <AnMaster> ehird, they do expand
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21:05:36 <ehird> Yes, but only to, say, 2x.
21:05:37 <pikhq> Well, that is still kinda big, but... Yeah. It's just hard to use a lot of space on software on Linux.
21:05:44 <ehird> Maybe 3x at best.
21:05:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, quite often do you see "download size 20 MB, expanded size 62 MB"
21:06:01 <AnMaster> more so for smaller packages
21:06:04 <pikhq> Particularly when compared with Windows installs...
21:06:30 <pikhq> (which include copies of relevant DLLs often. ... For the single program.)
21:06:41 <AnMaster> ehird, especially the dev packages tend to have 4x or better
21:06:45 <ehird> 34 * (62/20) = 105.4
21:06:51 <AnMaster> often they are smaller than the main packages, though not always
21:06:55 <ehird> 100 GiB is still quite small.
21:06:57 <AnMaster> (think boost or similar)
21:07:19 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. And I'm quite sure 62/20 is *not* representative
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21:07:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Have you considered that you are irrationally trying to inflate the numbers based on your previous estimation?
21:08:04 <AnMaster> ehird, no, quite often it is less well packed for binary packages
21:08:12 <AnMaster> and even more so for mostly-image data packages
21:08:18 <ehird> I will take that as a yes.
21:08:23 <ehird> Let's assume every package is 5x.
21:08:29 <pikhq> Headers do compress much better than binaries, yes.
21:08:37 <pikhq> But the headers are much smaller.
21:08:38 <ehird> This is unreasonably optimistic: compression technology is not THAT good, and binaries are stripped and the like anyway.
21:08:43 <AnMaster> ehird, 5x = too well packed for average.
21:08:44 <ehird> But let's just go by your whims.
21:08:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, exception: boost. Probably single exception
21:09:01 <ehird> So if everything is 5x, then 170 GiB.
21:09:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Even then, it's not exactly notable.
21:09:26 <ehird> If you have a 24 megabit/s connection, you can download 170 GiB in 17 hours.
21:09:26 <AnMaster> you would really have to split it into 4 categories: headers, binaries, data, mixed. Then sample a number of each
21:09:29 <AnMaster> to get some average
21:09:30 <ehird> That's uncompressed.
21:09:33 <ehird> AnMaster: no, you wouldn't
21:09:36 <AnMaster> and then extrapolate from that
21:09:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well it would be one way
21:09:43 <ehird> you'd have to stop being an OCD anally-retentive nerd that doesn't know what an estimate is
21:09:46 <pikhq> /usr/include/boost-1_39 is 59M here.
21:09:53 <ehird> and accept that a trivial calculation is probably not far off
21:09:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, and the libraries for boost?
21:09:58 <ehird> certainly not by an order of a magnitude
21:10:05 <ehird> too much to expect though
21:10:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I take "nerd" as a praise :)
21:10:43 <AnMaster> (those adjectives in front I ignore)
21:10:47 <ehird> "OCD", "anally-retentive", "doesn't know what an estimate is".
21:11:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what an estimate is. The way I suggested is also an estimate. Just a more exact such
21:11:30 <ehird> "You're a dog-fucking, shit-eating, whore-raping gentleman of a gibbering moron." "Why thank you, I am indeed a gentleman."
21:11:43 <AnMaster> ehird, but that 5x suggestion: 170 GB is way less than I thought it would be
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21:11:50 <AnMaster> and that is probably a worst case
21:12:01 <AnMaster> well, almost certainly
21:12:05 <ehird> Which was my original point: yes, it's off a bit, but it's certainly not an order of a magnitude off.
21:12:10 <ehird> Anyway, you can't install every single package.
21:12:11 <ehird> They conflict.
21:12:25 <AnMaster> so somewhere between 60 and 170 GB or so.
21:12:35 <ehird> Certainly, I'm sure there are at least two sets of Debian packages that split each other.
21:12:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what percentage conflicts roughly
21:12:41 <ehird> That is, you can only install half of Debian at any one time.
21:12:44 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know.
21:12:48 <ehird> But take, e.g. libcs and stuff.
21:12:50 <ehird> That sort of thing.
21:12:54 <ehird> Core system stuff.
21:12:55 <AnMaster> well yes
21:12:58 <ehird> That probably splits the system a lot.
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21:13:11 <ehird> I would wild-guess that you can install about 60% of Debian on one system.
21:13:21 <ehird> Lower bound 47%, upper bound 73%.
21:13:21 <AnMaster> there are some other stuff too. Take gamin/fam for example
21:13:29 <AnMaster> ehird, no more than 73%?
21:13:35 <AnMaster> I would have gussed 80-90%
21:13:45 <ehird> Debian has, like, 10,000 packages.
21:13:45 <AnMaster> but you probably know this better
21:14:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm well aware of that it has a ****load of packages
21:14:02 <ehird> So:
21:14:38 <ehird> Let's say 73%.
21:14:43 <fizzie> "apt-cache search . | wc -l" says 30820 on my system.
21:14:47 <ehird> Okay.
21:14:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh
21:15:02 <ehird> That would mean that you couldn't install 8321(.4) packages given an optimal set.
21:15:09 <AnMaster> which is 3 times what ehird suggested
21:15:11 <AnMaster> which is*
21:15:27 <ehird> Is it so hard to believe that you'd have a library, or whatever, conflicting with another library, and that other library is depended on by 8321 packages?
21:15:37 <fizzie> I might have some sources.list entries that aren't strictly "Debian", though.
21:15:49 <AnMaster> ehird, probably if it is a single library yes ;P
21:15:50 <ehird> I adjust my estimate though: lower bound 57%, upper bound 93%.
21:15:54 <ehird> Probably 88%.
21:16:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, you can abstract that into a chain.
21:16:06 <ehird> You get the idea.
21:16:26 <ehird> fizzie: Oi, Debianer. Write a script that uses apt to find the biggest set of packages that don't conflict.
21:16:42 <ehird> You will receive cookies if you complete this task.
21:16:51 <AnMaster> ehird, probably a substantial portion of those depending on conflicts, depend on different implementations of the same. the fam/gamin example springs to mind again
21:16:52 <ehird> Bonus cookies will be awarded for calculating the size of this set.
21:16:54 <ehird> Yay cookies!
21:17:13 <AnMaster> both provide the same API and ABI
21:17:15 <ehird> Fam gamin! You kids and your crazy terms!
21:17:22 <AnMaster> eh?
21:17:33 <AnMaster> joke detected
21:17:36 <AnMaster> but I don't get it
21:17:48 <fizzie> I don't think I want to do that. Even for cookies.
21:17:50 <ehird> Get off my lawn.
21:17:57 <ehird> fizzie: Brownies?
21:18:11 <AnMaster> ehird, how does the ubuntu package repo compare to the debian one
21:18:16 <fizzie> 32398 packages in Ubuntu karmic, according to the list given by http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/ "all packages (compact compressed textlist)"
21:18:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Strictly bigger, I think.
21:18:31 <ehird> fizzie: Pot brownies?!?!
21:18:35 <ehird> You drive a hard bargain, man.
21:18:47 <AnMaster> ehird, really? Pretty sure there was some package in debian recently that I couldn't find in ubuntu
21:18:57 <AnMaster> forgot what one it was
21:19:13 <AnMaster> and I don't think it was in debian stable, only in testing
21:19:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, Ubuntu syncs with Debian apart from the Debian branding stuff and the like.
21:19:26 <ehird> Every six months only, duh.
21:19:34 <fizzie> 34492 lines in Debian sid according to the comparable packages.debian.org list; but, well, that's sid; it might not be exactly fair to compare against karmic.
21:19:54 <ehird> http://glyphic.s3.amazonaws.com/ozone/mark/periodic/Periodic%20Table%20of%20the%20Operators%20A4%20300dpi.jpg
21:19:54 <ehird> Perl 6 sure does have a metric fuckton of operators.
21:20:12 <AnMaster> # apt-cache search . | wc -l
21:20:12 <AnMaster> 37221
21:21:07 <fizzie> FWIW, 27208 exactly similar package names appear in both the Ubuntu karmic and Debian sid lists.
21:21:38 <ehird> s/debian/ubuntu/ and then try..
21:21:41 <ehird> *try.
21:23:31 <AnMaster> mine was from jaunty though
21:24:07 <AnMaster> main/universe/multiverse/backports + debugging packages for all those
21:24:19 <AnMaster> debugging packages comes in a separate repo for each of those
21:24:28 <AnMaster> as in universe-debugging or something like that
21:24:48 <AnMaster> or wait, does it. Hm
21:25:10 <ehird> I have the itching to write my own editor. This worries me.
21:25:13 <AnMaster> deb http://ftp.df.lth.se/ubuntu/ jaunty main restricted
21:25:13 <AnMaster> deb-src http://ftp.df.lth.se/ubuntu/ jaunty main
21:25:14 <AnMaster> deb http://ddebs.ubuntu.com jaunty main restricted universe multiverse
21:25:33 <AnMaster> well, more than a pristine install would show at least
21:25:38 <AnMaster> the ddebs being the debugging ones
21:27:06 <ehird> Also, I sorta half want to write a C compiler.
21:27:09 <ehird> I am feeling very strange.
21:28:09 <AnMaster> btw software patents could work, if they were for very short time. Say one month
21:28:26 <AnMaster> and of course, the details would have to be saner
21:28:29 <ehird> Define "work". Patents are harmful.
21:28:45 <ehird> Besides, one month is useless.
21:28:53 <AnMaster> ehird, exactly!
21:28:56 <ehird> You can't make enough profit in one month for it to even be worthwhile.
21:29:07 <ehird> Making "the details saner" consists of repealing patents.
21:29:25 <ehird> They may have been helpful at one time — may — but today they are more than useless, they are actively harmful.
21:29:36 <AnMaster> ehird, true. There was a good reason for them originally, society doesn't work the same way any longer
21:29:49 <ehird> I doubt it ever did. But I don't know, I'm not a historian.
21:30:05 <AnMaster> ehird, think back during steam engine invention time and such
21:30:13 <ehird> I stand by what I said.
21:36:12 <ehird> my $test = "Hello World";
21:36:13 <ehird> substr($test, 0, 5) = "Goodbye";
21:36:13 <ehird> —Perl
21:37:05 <ehird> "Common Lisp's format function has an option to print numbers as Roman numerals."
21:37:05 <ehird> Lies! Horrible lies! Ugh, I wish the FUDing trolls would fuck off elsewhere.
21:37:19 <ehird> ...as any true Lisper knows, FORMAT has *two* options to print numbers as Roman numerals.
21:37:52 <oerjan> XD
21:38:03 <ehird> (one prints 4 as IV, the other as IIII.)
21:38:05 <ehird> (I'm not joking)
21:38:25 <oerjan> (490)
21:39:28 <ehird> (wat)
21:40:11 <oerjan> (why don't you convert that to roman numerals)
21:40:25 <Deewiant> IIIIIXX
21:40:42 <oerjan> um, no
21:40:53 <Deewiant> :-P
21:40:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nice try
21:41:08 <pikhq> ehird: Only one does Roman numerals correctly?
21:41:22 <ehird> pikhq: IIII is old-style Roman numerals.
21:41:30 <ehird> Yes, Common Lisp supports an *old version* of Roman numerals.
21:41:41 <ehird> As a built-in formatter syntax.
21:41:43 <pikhq> ...
21:41:53 <pikhq> That's just silly.
21:42:02 <ehird> Have you ever READ the CL spec?
21:42:15 <ehird> It's the most anally-retentive completely-specified spec I've ever read.
21:42:16 <pikhq> I say this as someone fond of a language that supports using stardates.
21:42:39 <ehird> It loathes to even mention the operating system without three layers of indirection. :-)
21:42:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, klingon?
21:42:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Tcl.
21:42:51 <ehird> Of course, the specification says nothing whatsoever about networking.
21:42:51 <AnMaster> hah
21:42:56 <AnMaster> really?
21:42:57 <ehird> Nor threads.
21:43:00 <ehird> But who needs those?
21:43:02 <AnMaster> (that was at tcl)
21:43:06 <ehird> AnMaster: yes
21:43:18 <ehird> It's an easteregg
21:43:20 <pikhq> Yeah, there's a stardate date format in Tcl.
21:43:20 <ehird> http://wiki.tcl.tk/9832
21:43:24 <ehird> *easter egg
21:43:59 <ehird> Dude, Fink doesn't do roman numerals?
21:45:09 <AnMaster> fink?
21:45:11 <AnMaster> hm
21:45:15 <ehird> *Frink
21:45:18 <ehird> http://futureboy.us/frinkdocs/
21:45:18 <AnMaster> os x package manager?
21:45:21 <AnMaster> ah okay
21:45:40 <ehird> The super-besterest unit conversion, calculator on steroids, graphics-drawing, function-processing, web-scraping, data-crunching language you ever did see.
21:46:21 <ehird> Oops, I forgot: language translating, exchange rate conversion, HISTORICAL exchange rate conversion, regular expression stuff, Unicode support, interval arithmetic, and full interface to Java.
21:46:26 * ehird catches breath
21:46:40 <ehird> Large standard library, lots of example programs, updates every other day,
21:46:43 * ehird pant
21:46:54 <ehird> No, I think that about covers it.
21:48:02 <pikhq> ... Is it just me, or does Common Lisp support a limited form of goto?
21:48:08 <ehird> you mean LABELS?
21:48:16 <pikhq> Yes.
21:48:23 <ehird> yeah, that was in Lisp 1.5
21:48:29 <ehird> stolen from Fortran because, you know, the people want it and all
21:48:31 <pikhq> Ugh.
21:48:48 <ehird> pikhq: hey, lisp invented the fucking structured conditional :-)
21:48:57 <pikhq> Such a multiparadigm language.
21:49:00 <ehird> it's not like we knew how to program with structure back then
21:49:02 <pikhq> That people claim is functional.
21:49:12 <ehird> yeah CL isn't really functional at all
21:49:23 <ehird> i love it, it's just amazingly... huge
21:49:35 <ehird> you can do anything except fit it all into your head
21:49:40 <pikhq> It allows for functional programming. It allows for every other sort of programming.
21:49:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, I bet some lisp macro could emulate goto in scheme :)
21:50:40 <ehird> goto doesn't exactly have magical semantics
21:50:52 <Deewiant> comefrom is a bit trickier
21:51:46 <pikhq> Goto emulation's only really difficult in, say, Haskell.
21:51:49 <ehird> {a: x; b: y; c: z}
21:51:49 <ehird>
21:51:50 <ehird> (let* ((a (lambda () x)) (b (lambda () y)) (c (lambda () z))) (a))
21:51:51 <ehird> pretty much
21:52:00 <pikhq> And even then, you can do it.
21:52:01 <ehird> pikhq: goto's pretty easy there too actually
21:52:05 <ehird> define a monad
21:52:09 <ehird> label foo → MkLabel foo
21:52:14 <fizzie> The 4 = IIII variant is used a lot in clock faces.
21:52:14 <ehird> MkLabel foo >>= labelcontents
21:52:14 <ehird> etc
21:52:16 <Deewiant> Just use Cont
21:52:22 <pikhq> ehird: It's still somewhat tricky there.
21:52:27 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah how does that interact with state though
21:52:34 <pikhq> But, yeah, just use a monad and it works.
21:52:35 <ehird> StateT Cont still rewinds state if you goto iirc
21:52:44 <pikhq> Or some Template Haskell.
21:53:17 <ehird> [21:51] ehird: {a: x; b: y; c: z}
21:53:17 <ehird> [21:51] ehird: →
21:53:17 <ehird> [21:51] ehird: (let* ((a (lambda () x)) (b (lambda () y)) (c (lambda () z))) (a))
21:53:18 <ehird> [21:51] ehird: pretty much
21:53:18 <ehird> [21:51] pikhq
21:53:20 <ehird> isn't this actually literally true
21:53:27 <ehird> with goto x = (x)
21:54:03 <pikhq> ehird: ... Yeah, that's the semantics.
21:54:11 <ehird> well
21:54:15 <ehird> apart from variable declarations inside the labels
21:54:27 <ehird> you have to shift those out to be around the let*
21:54:34 <ehird> or even in it
21:54:58 <pikhq> ehird: And closing on variables might function differently than is desired.
21:56:24 * ehird plays with nlite
21:58:16 <ehird> Oh, I forgot another thing Frink is good at: simple dynamic websites.
21:58:54 <ehird> ...So, it's the perfect desktop calculator/converter, and it'd also be good (number crunching + dynamic webpage + graphics support) for making, say, an online Sudoku page that has an autosolve feature.
21:59:08 <ehird> Not quite "general purpose language" stage, but nevertheless useful.
22:05:33 <ehird> rebol upsets the language designer in me so much by trodding on my aspirations of concise code: http://www.rebol.com/oneliners.html
22:15:43 <AnMaster> ehird, what is it *not* good at?
22:15:49 <AnMaster> I mean, this is too good to be true
22:15:53 <AnMaster> there hast to be a catch
22:15:55 <ehird> frink or rebol
22:16:00 <AnMaster> frink
22:17:01 <ehird> it's not open source (but it's not like most proprietary stuff, the guy is friendly and the tools surrounding it are quite open-ended; the rationale is that it's his plaything so he wouldn't accept patches anyway), you won't be writing "applications" in it any time soon, nor unix tools
22:17:12 <ehird> also, it's not really fast, so serious number crunching is out
22:17:41 <ehird> but it's great for calculation + conversion + text processing + simple graphics + simple web tools + simple web scraping imo
22:17:43 <ehird> (and combinations of those)
22:17:51 <ehird> also it's java :P
22:19:55 <ehird> http://futureboy.us/fsp/frink.fsp lets you play with frink online btw
22:20:11 <ehird> obviously restricted a bit as far as non-oneliners go or the graphics/web stuff, but a good intro
22:20:24 <ehird> (if you just want to eval something without conversion just type in from and leave to blank)
22:20:47 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, and you'll probably like that it has an emacs mode :P
22:20:54 <ehird> just highlighting+indenting though, no in-emacs evaluation
22:21:03 <ehird> that wouldn't be too hard to add though i guess
22:24:38 <ehird> I love how you can define new units in frink especially
22:24:44 <ehird> beardsecond := 5 nm
22:24:50 <ehird> 3 beardseconds -> m ← this works
22:24:54 <ehird> (yes, with the "s")
22:26:57 <AnMaster> units(1) can do that iirc
22:28:04 <AnMaster> actually my units(1) lack that unit
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22:45:25 <ehird> beardsecond is a novelty unit
22:45:41 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, well, of course, fink was, at first, designed to be units(1) on steroids
22:45:49 <ehird> so, many commas, after just, one or, two words
22:46:08 <Sgeo_> "AGHHHHHH@neat code"
22:46:14 <Sgeo_> "the code you pasted
22:46:14 <Sgeo_> "
22:46:20 <Sgeo_> "all neat and minimal"
22:47:26 <ehird> what
22:47:30 <ehird> does this person hate neat, minimal code
22:47:38 <ehird> is this the same C# dumbfuck
22:48:18 <ehird> srsly wut
22:51:20 <pikhq> Murder?
22:55:29 <Sgeo_> For what it's worth, he's 15
22:55:33 <Sgeo_> erm
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23:03:57 <ehird> Sgeo_: anyone who knows what the word neat and the word minimal means
23:04:03 <ehird> and can code hello world
23:04:10 <ehird> and uses the two words as insults
23:04:24 <ehird> ...is an unfixable moron, no qualifiers required
23:04:36 <Sgeo_> I think he was more envious
23:04:39 <ehird> hey cool you can remove 16 bit support from windows
23:04:44 <ehird> Sgeo_: well. that is acceptable.
23:04:51 <ehird> you coulda said :P
23:05:51 <ehird> pikhq: am i crazy enough to remove 16-bit support from windows xp, do you think?
23:06:34 <pikhq> ehird: Maybe.
23:06:45 <ehird> "Anyone who can locate an advertisement, donation button, or other instrument of profit on this site shall win my entire yearly marketing budget." —Loper OS
23:07:17 <pikhq> Hah.
23:07:44 <ehird> (from http://www.loper-os.org/?p=91, more proof that paul graham is an idiot)
23:08:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:10:21 <pikhq> Paul Graham is at least an *interesting* idiot. Better than many of the other idiots out there.
23:11:03 <Sgeo_> Speaking of idiots, I once saw an interesting Time Cube apologist sit
23:11:04 <Sgeo_> site
23:11:12 <pikhq> ...
23:11:29 <Sgeo_> It was actually coherent
23:11:43 <Sgeo_> Which is obviously a major plus over the original material
23:16:05 <Sgeo_> http://www.cubicao.com/
23:16:52 <Sgeo_> http://www.cubicao.com/stupidevil1.html clearly, the guy doesn't actually believe it, or he wouldn't be able to grasp calculus
23:16:57 <Sgeo_> Right? Please tell me I'm right
23:24:30 <pikhq> I wish.
23:31:00 -!- jpc has joined.
23:32:45 <Sgeo_> ...Gene Ray actually believes himself to be the Creator?
23:32:57 <Sgeo_> http://www.timecube.com/
23:36:36 <ehird> the guy behind cubicao kille dhimself iirc
23:36:39 <ehird> *killed himself
23:37:13 <Sgeo_> ehird, WHAT? o.O :(
23:37:42 <ehird> gotta say I don't think that drastically decreased the amount of meaningful contribution we should expect to humanity in the future
23:38:02 <ehird> he killed himself because gene ray didn't like him or something iirc
23:38:16 <ehird> gene ray wrote something about it essentially equating to "lol fuck that stupid fool gg good riddance"
23:38:28 <ehird> this may have all been supreme trolling, dunno
23:40:16 <ehird> gene ray sure has taken a turn for the more violent recently...
23:40:27 <ehird> ARE PAID TO TEACH YOU EVIL TO
23:40:38 <ehird> serial killer riskometer: 68.7%
23:41:00 <ehird> [[There is a cryptic reference to cancer on his website, [1], and the updates that once were plentiful and current seem to have stopped as of September 2009. However, Ray has previously told an interviewer that Cancer is his astrological sign [2], so no real conclusion may yet be drawn.]]
23:41:09 <ehird> no, the doctor of cubicism can't die!!!
23:42:17 <oerjan> wait, Cancer is _my_ astrological sign too. maybe i'm secretly gene ray! scary.
23:43:02 <ehird> poop
23:43:27 <oerjan> excrementally so
23:43:56 <ehird> Sgeo_: yah pretty sure he's dead
23:44:21 <ehird> although he got expelled from his uni and converted to christianity or something beforehand
23:44:28 <ehird> the crazy is... was, strong in this one
23:44:54 <ehird> apparently he was getting psychiatric help too if what i'm reading is true
23:45:29 <Sgeo_> http://www.graveyardofthegods.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7664
23:45:33 <ehird> on a bunch of drugs for mental issues 'pparently
23:45:52 <ehird> heh "gifted computer programmer"
23:45:57 <Sgeo_> ehird, link, if different from what I posted?
23:45:57 <ehird> did he use a cubic language that had -1x-1=-1
23:46:10 <ehird> http://www.graveyardofthegods.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7686 http://www.graveyardofthegods.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8056
23:47:03 <ehird> imo fuck gene ray for peddling idiocy that this vulnerable kid latched ontoo, and double triple quadruple FUCK him for then telling him he's worthless after he basically devoted everything to him
23:47:11 <ehird> murder, two steps removed
23:47:29 <ehird> ...in other news, woot i reduced windows xp by 446 megs
23:47:35 <ehird> bringing it to 137!
23:49:00 <ehird> so if we're talking about depressing suicides it doesn't get much more than http://lifehacker.com/comment/18054779/
23:49:27 <mycroftiv> how about we talk about LP49, the most amazing OS project I discovered today
23:49:44 <ehird> (http://pastebin.com/f51e0cea8 who posts their suicide-automation script to a public pastebin mere months before they die?)
23:50:00 <ehird> http://research.nii.ac.jp/H2O/LP49/LP49-e.html
23:50:02 <ehird> meh
23:50:05 <ehird> what's interesting about it
23:50:06 <mycroftiv> dude it works
23:50:17 <mycroftiv> it is a really wacky environment to be in
23:50:22 <ehird> and?
23:50:45 <mycroftiv> its got this great thing called QSH that gives you access to plan9 kernel data structures
23:57:05 <pikhq> Plan 9 on L4. Meh.
23:57:07 <pikhq> Useful, but meh.
23:57:22 <pikhq> ehird: 137 meg Windows XP? Do tell.
23:57:59 <ehird> nLite + wantonly disabling anything that I don't think I need without regard to anything = tada!
23:58:10 <ehird> even slipstreamed in SP3 so I don't have to servicepack it post-install ^_^
23:58:11 <pikhq> Ah, the simple way.
23:58:26 <pikhq> "Fuck most of the bloat"
23:59:00 <ehird> hmm
23:59:11 <ehird> it seems that not really that much depends on the IE rendering engine in xp
23:59:19 <ehird> and i'm sure you can run the win95 explorer on xp
23:59:32 <ehird> so... remove IE stuff, use win95 explorer...
23:59:34 <pikhq> Yeah, it's pretty easy to hack out the IE rendering engine.
23:59:46 <ehird> and you have forcibly de-integrated the integral operating system component that is internet explorer!
23:59:59 <pikhq> ehird: Windows XP comes with the Windows 3.1 file browser.
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