←2010-01-07 2010-01-08 2010-01-09→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:29 <ehird> Yes, but... that's not really usable.
00:00:38 <ehird> Heck, Win95 explorer.exe is actually more usable than XP's.
00:00:56 <ehird> Windows 95's interface was... almost as pure as Macintosh System 6/7's.
00:01:32 <ehird> I was actually quite sad to leave my Win95 VM for OS X when I was bored with it.
00:01:38 <ehird> Although the application compatibility rather puts a damper on that.
00:02:35 * pikhq wonders why Wine's explorer clones the Win3.1 fileman
00:02:55 <ehird> Because it seems like a power interface to silly people? :P
00:03:23 <ehird> I was actually really pleasantly surprised by Win95's explorer; especially how it opens directories in a cascade pattern so you can easily move up the directory tree simply by clicking on a window title.
00:03:24 <pikhq> Ugh.
00:03:30 <pikhq> It's an awful, arcane interface.
00:03:39 <pikhq> And I use Emacs.
00:04:38 <ehird> pikhq: Cygwin runs on Windows 95. Clearly you should immediately switch to a Windows 95 + Emacs system.
00:05:10 <pikhq> ehird: I thought they had just phased that out?
00:05:18 <ehird> Oh, maybe in 1.7.
00:05:32 <ehird> Don't worry though; Cygwin is so outdated and buggy that you won't be able to tell the difference when using 1.5.
00:05:42 <ehird> 1.7 only dropped support because they added half-assed Unicode support, iirc.
00:09:09 <pikhq> Half-assed? Ugh.
00:09:56 <pikhq> Hrm. Does Cygwin even do much notable to programs on it outside of GCC and libc?
00:10:48 <ehird> It doesn't do anything to libc, it just uses newlib.
00:11:02 <ehird> But, uh, "libposix" they do.
00:11:25 <pikhq> Oh, right, it's newlib.
00:11:31 <pikhq> The libc that's easiest to port!
00:12:09 <ehird> As far as I can tell Cygwin is glacially slow (shell scripting is out of the question; ./configure takes a minute+), hacky, run by people with a mild case of idiocy, and should have been dumped in the 90s.
00:12:40 <pikhq> ... Wow...
00:12:48 <pikhq> http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/libc/string/strlen.c?rev= vs. http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/lib/libc/string/strlen.c?rev=1.7;content-type=text%2Fplain
00:12:50 <ehird> Oh and that's for a stock ./configure btw
00:12:58 <ehird> More advanced ones, say 3+ minutes
00:13:01 <pikhq> (glibc strlen vs. OpenBSD strlen)
00:13:19 <ehird> pikhq: yeah glibc is really retarded w/ strlen
00:13:30 <ehird> because i run strlen(million chars long string) in a tight loop ALL THE TIME
00:13:32 <pikhq> That is... Maximally retarded.
00:13:38 <ehird> pikhq: it has one good use
00:13:48 <ehird> explaining how to read in machine words to speed up memory access
00:13:52 <ehird> for strinngs
00:13:54 <ehird> *strings
00:14:21 <ehird> i am fucking sick of the "license at the top of every file" convention
00:14:58 <pikhq> Glibc must be insane to port.
00:17:20 <pikhq> Also, that file alone explains why statically linked glibc programs are so huge...
00:21:10 <ehird> "Unfortunately right now our servers are overloaded and we have no more download slots left for non-members. Of course you can also try again later."
00:21:10 <ehird> oh fuck you rapidshare
00:24:02 <Pthing> it's been throwing that up at me 9 times out of 10 for the past couple of months
00:24:27 <ehird> has anyone in the history of ever ever bought a rapidshare premium account
00:24:28 <ehird> (no)
00:24:54 <ehird> 42 seconds remaining
00:24:55 <ehird> awwright
00:25:04 <Pthing> once there was a drunk person in peterborough
00:25:07 <Pthing> who bought one
00:25:19 <Pthing> they got so excited and to this day refuse to believe it was a fluke
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00:26:19 <ehird> Pthing: there was also that telepathic hermit who was humming a song that happened to exactly coincide with their most expensive registration
00:26:42 <ehird> although the credit card was actually a middle manager's they tracked down the hermit and bludgeoned him to death for not paying
00:26:44 <ehird> factual story.
00:26:52 <Pthing> i heard that
00:27:31 <ehird> that was back in -3.2 BC though, before we decided to use natural numbers followed by BC or AD for years
00:29:05 <oerjan> this has to be true because all telepaths are hermits
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00:29:25 <ehird> oerjan: no it's the other way around
00:29:30 <ehird> it comes from the dampness of the caves they live in
00:29:31 <oerjan> you wouldn't stand being around people either, if you could their thoughts
00:29:33 <ehird> it's TELEPATHIC dampness
00:29:39 <oerjan> *hear
00:29:41 <ehird> oerjan: you accidentally the telepathy
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00:29:46 <ehird> anyway that's empathy no
00:29:57 <oerjan> it's both
00:30:11 <oerjan> they're different hermit orders though
00:30:26 <ehird> hermitism is very hierarchical and rigid and regulated and all that i guess
00:30:47 <oerjan> but of course
00:31:13 <oerjan> especially the telepathic ones, since they can have meetings without showing up
00:31:24 <ehird> they have to show up anyway though
00:31:25 <ehird> rude not to
00:31:50 <oerjan> no, they avoided that by making physically showing up against the order's rules
00:32:15 <ehird> with magic
00:32:24 <oerjan> the empathic ones have a harder time doing this, though, since they can only transmit feelings
00:32:54 <oerjan> but they have a very effective alarm system
00:33:40 <ehird> heh i'm just imagining an empathic hermit smiling and dancing when (s)he likes a proposal
00:33:50 <ehird> and banging their head against the cave wall when they think it's an affront to hermitmanity
00:34:20 <oerjan> i don't think that is a word, ehird
00:35:08 <oerjan> they still have to distribute the proposals in writing though
00:35:24 <oerjan> they employ psychopaths for this purpose, since they are devoid of empathy
00:36:10 <oerjan> so won't disturb the hermit's meditations. at least not for that reason.
00:36:46 <oerjan> admittedly the psychopaths are their main reason for needing the alarm system in the first place
00:38:12 <oerjan> they have considered changing to email, but unfortunately many of the hermits are also sensitive to electricity.
00:40:10 * SimonRC goes
00:40:58 <ehird> eel eck tricksy tea
00:41:09 <oerjan> oh and that dampness in the caves tends to wreak havoc with the computers too
00:43:41 <ehird> A Dampness in the Caves
00:43:49 <ehird> little known prequel to A Deepness in the Sky
00:44:08 <ehird> oerjan: you're forgetting the littler known subdenominated species of hermit
00:44:18 <ehird> henpathic, they don't care about hens
00:44:45 <ehird> eticpath, they talk about star trek figurines in pig latin
00:44:52 <oerjan> that would be hen-_a_-pathic, i think
00:45:02 <ehird> are you questioning me?!
00:45:13 <ehird> i thought the rules of this game were that you took whatever the other said as granted
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00:51:18 <oerjan> always the rules
00:55:23 <pikhq> The pathapathic ones are bizarre.
00:55:49 <oerjan> as bizarre as the 'patapathic ones?
01:06:01 <pikhq> Ne.
01:06:22 <oerjan> good.
01:08:34 * pikhq did not realise that Windows does not come with a C library...
01:08:42 <coppro> nope
01:09:08 <pikhq> Development on Windows must be more of a PITA than I thought.
01:09:35 <pikhq> I mean, hell, you'd have trouble just finding libraries that won't involved conflicting libcs...
01:09:51 <coppro> it is
01:10:00 <coppro> you have to include the C++ runtime in your code, for instance
01:10:07 <pikhq> *shudder*
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02:00:25 <Sgeo_> Can I sanely set up an SVN server with TortoiseSVN?
02:02:16 <pikhq> No, you cannot sanely set up an SVN server when there exists Git.
02:08:40 <coppro> or Hg
02:10:57 <Sgeo_> I may have crashed a universe
02:11:10 <Sgeo_> I really, really, doubt it, but still
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02:54:14 <Ilari> Sgeo_: Setting up SVN server is bit of PITA. :-)
02:54:36 <coppro> just use svn+ssh
02:55:18 <Ilari> Too slow. :-)
02:55:43 <Sgeo_> I just realized that I might be able to use normish. ty coppro
02:55:50 <Sgeo_> But first, SG-1
02:55:56 <coppro> <3 sgi
02:55:59 <coppro> *sg1
02:56:20 <Sgeo_> I got the guy in charge of the project I'm working on addicted
02:56:34 <Sgeo_> And now the game has several references
02:56:49 <Sgeo_> (I believe the original game also had references, but much more subtle)
02:57:29 <Sgeo_> Including a reference to something not particularly notable that happened in 1 (rather notable) episode
02:59:14 <Ilari> Does it have as many explosions per second as possible? :->
03:03:48 <coppro> Sgeo_: What's the reference
03:04:20 <Sgeo_> coppro, there's a point in one of the puzzles where you must do stuff, and one of the results is a red light shining through a gem
03:04:52 <Sgeo_> When I saw the scene in Full Circle shining a laser through a red gem, that reminded me of that in the game
03:05:19 <coppro> ah
03:05:21 <Sgeo_> Also, the big bad is called To'Rak. Ok, so if that's a reference, it's in name only, but still
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03:13:12 <coppro> Sgeo_: have you played the new LoZ game yet?
03:13:16 <coppro> it has stargates in it
03:13:23 <Sgeo_> LoZ?
03:13:58 <coppro> Legend of Zelda
03:14:32 <coppro> these are bad pics, sorry:
03:14:36 <coppro> http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af190/shinkukage09/StargateLOZ.jpg
03:14:40 <coppro> http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af190/shinkukage09/StargateLOZactive.jpg
03:14:44 <coppro> I'll see if I can find better ones
03:15:35 <Sgeo_> Can I set normish up as an svn server?
03:17:27 <coppro> you can set it up for svn+ssh for sure
03:17:32 <coppro> probably over http as well
03:17:43 <coppro> dunno if you could set up an svn raw server
03:19:12 <Sgeo_> Would svn+ssh:// allow others to access it without giving them access to my normish account?
03:20:33 <coppro> they'd need normish accounts of their own
03:20:58 <Sgeo_> Oh bleh
03:22:10 <Sgeo_> coppro, is that the case with all of these options, or just svn+ssh?
03:22:17 <coppro> just svn+ssh
03:22:24 <coppro> the other two require a daemon to run as the server
03:23:01 <Sgeo_> And there's no way to run that under normal privs?
03:23:14 <coppro> possibly is
03:23:16 <coppro> dunno
03:23:23 <coppro> it's a network server, so probably
04:10:28 <coppro> wow
04:10:36 <coppro> all my channels were practically silent while I was gone
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06:12:06 <zzo38> The reason why they have IIII and IV for 4, is because IIII is for clocks, didn't you know that?
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11:02:19 <soupdragon> 'so you make the effort of scanning ~4billion IP addresses and all you come up with is some cell phone snaps of a 8x8 wall print?'
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13:16:34 <ehird> 17:08:34 * pikhq did not realise that Windows does not come with a C library...
13:16:34 <ehird> Well, neither does Ubuntu.
13:16:39 <ehird> Nor OS X.
13:16:44 <ehird> Nor FreeBSD.
13:17:45 <ehird> 22:12:06 <zzo38> The reason why they have IIII and IV for 4, is because IIII is for clocks, didn't you know that?
13:17:45 <ehird> Clocks use that, but it is not there for clocks.
13:38:33 <ehird> Oh god I just realised something
13:38:36 <ehird> VirtualBox is now owned by Oracle
13:42:06 <augur> hey ehird
13:42:09 <augur> howsit goin
13:42:18 <ehird> It's all goin and whatnot.
13:42:25 <augur> awesome
13:42:28 <augur> cant have it not goin
13:46:53 <ehird> Windows XP installs bloody fast once you've mutilated it to fit into 177 megs.
13:47:04 <ehird> "Windows XP brutally mutilated: Installs faster than Ubuntu!"
13:50:13 <ehird> I appear to have accidentally lobbed of Japanese/Chinese character supporrt in my mutilation!
13:50:14 <ehird> OH WELL
13:50:15 <ehird> *support
13:54:35 <ehird> man, it starts up to the login screen in two seconds
13:55:01 <ehird> ok one issue though: can't login as administrator, which is the only account :-D
13:56:11 <ehird> this is problematic
13:58:01 <mycroftiv> ehird: that sounds like you have created a very secure distribution of win xp, by making admin the only account and prohibiting login to it, that prevents large categories of exploits
13:58:30 <ehird> it's incredibly secure, it even waits some seconds after you hit OK before telling you you can't login as administrator
13:58:40 <ehird> that prevents brute-force OK-clicking attacks
13:58:47 <ehird> designed to confuse the computer into letting the user in
13:58:55 <FireFly> Yeah
13:59:00 <FireFly> Great design choice
13:59:22 <FireFly> "some seconds"
13:59:27 <ehird> User name: Administrator
13:59:27 <ehird> Password:
13:59:28 <ehird> [OK] [Cancel (disabled)] [Options >>]
13:59:28 <ehird> C'mon guys, let's see if we can't get me into this system :P
13:59:32 <FireFly> So you get to the login screen faster than it takes for it to realize you can't log in?
13:59:36 <mycroftiv> one of my favorite bits of rio actually is a tiny bit of code commented as /* the purpose of this is to discard frantic user clicking during brief periods of inactivity */
13:59:41 <ehird> FireFly: yep
13:59:49 <FireFly> Heh
14:00:02 <ehird> winxp from bios handing over to the bootloader to graphical login screen here is like ~3s
14:00:09 <ehird> if only i could log in
14:00:36 <ehird> the install was pretty sweet
14:00:38 <ehird> it took about 5-6 minutes
14:00:41 <FireFly> Wait
14:00:49 <FireFly> does it still show all the stuff in those three seconds?
14:00:53 <ehird> the textmode formatting+copying stage took about 3 minutes
14:00:55 <FireFly> All different screens we usually see
14:01:02 <mycroftiv> "Inability to log in is not a defect. This bug should have been filed as a feature request. Login functionality has been deferred to an indeterminate future OS version. WONTFIX."
14:01:04 <ehird> and discarding my futzing with the settings in the graphical part it took about 2-3 minutes
14:01:07 <ehird> maybe 4 minutes tops
14:01:19 <ehird> FireFly: It shows the Windows XP with the [ ==== ] scroller.
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14:01:29 <FireFly> Only that?
14:01:32 <FireFly> and then login screen?
14:01:34 <mycroftiv> what about the naked babes?
14:01:37 <mycroftiv> and the fireworks?
14:01:46 <ehird> FireFly: yes
14:01:49 <mycroftiv> i dont use windows, but since everyone says its so great, i assume you get those when you start it up
14:01:49 <FireFly> Sounds sweet
14:02:06 <ehird> FireFly: I stripped out a lot of shit though
14:02:15 <FireFly> yeah, I can see thot
14:02:16 <FireFly> with a
14:02:21 <ehird> All the sounds, the entire theme support, wireless support, I think even DHCP
14:02:37 <augur> so ehird
14:02:44 <ehird> Anything even remotely server-like, things that windows media player depends on to even *run*, ...
14:02:50 <augur> about the constraint-functional gl
14:03:20 <augur> you wanna discuss it a bit later?
14:03:28 <ehird> FireFly: I did improve the graphical part of the installer, though, by making it use a black background and an InstallShield-esque dialog instead of the shitty Luna crap that's used by default
14:03:37 <ehird> augur: Sure? I guess.
14:03:55 <FireFly> How did you change it anyway?
14:04:16 <augur> awesome. im feeling kinda shit right now but hopefully later ill be better enough to talk coherently about this crap
14:04:17 <augur> lol
14:04:29 <ehird> FireFly: nLite + reckless abandon
14:04:56 <ehird> If you want it even lighter try slimming down Windows 2000, that supports like 90% of the stuff XP does
14:05:03 <ehird> (even if the stuff says it doesn't)
14:05:12 <FireFly> Heh
14:05:16 <ehird> FireFly: One thing I didn't bother with is stripping out the IE engine
14:05:35 <ehird> If you did that, and used the Windows 95 explorer as explorer.exe, that'd be pretty light.
14:05:37 <FireFly> I was about to ask that, but... it's apparently quite central
14:05:50 <ehird> Nah, it's not
14:05:54 <FireFly> No?
14:05:55 <FireFly> Hmm
14:05:58 <ehird> It breaks the default explorer,
14:06:01 <ehird> Windows Media Player,
14:06:14 <ehird> Help & Support including .chm (I guess you could use a third-party reader)
14:06:19 <ehird> some misc. stuff
14:06:23 <ehird> but really not all that much
14:06:40 <ehird> for third party stuff you could, like, use http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htm
14:07:19 <ehird> FireFly: Vista onwards, though, use IE for, like, everything
14:07:24 <ehird> iirc the vista/7 control panel is actually ie
14:07:28 <FireFly> ...
14:07:43 <ehird> ,,,
14:07:45 <FireFly> Didn't MS say they were going to decentralize the use of IE in Vista?
14:07:53 <FireFly> I recall reading something like that
14:07:56 <ehird> Um. I don't think so.
14:08:02 <FireFly> Well, I may well be wrong
14:08:04 <ehird> They were lying, if they did.
14:08:23 <ehird> Oh also nLite lets you roll in service packs and updates into the install which is sweeeeeet
14:08:30 <FireFly> Nice
14:08:31 <ehird> And you can make programs (i.e. installers) execute on first boot
14:08:43 <ehird> and roll in drivers too
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14:10:18 <ehird> http://www.pu7o.org/pix/nt4sh_xp.png Windows NT 4 (i.e. Windows 95 ported to NT)'s shell in XP? Why yes indeed.
14:10:23 <ehird> Microsoft sure are rabid about backwards compat
14:11:13 <FireFly> Hah
14:13:06 <ehird> http://sillydog.org/forum/sdp_95595.php&sid=5758688f796265bb2f8336806d81d9ba#95595 ;; you can even download it!
14:22:15 <ehird> "KernelEx is an Open Source compatibility layer with an aim to allow running Windows 2000/XP-only applications on Microsoft Windows 98 and Microsoft Windows Millennium operating systems."
14:22:16 * ehird gawps
14:22:39 <augur> whats a gawp
14:23:51 <ehird> ur mom
14:23:55 <augur> oh ok
14:28:12 <AnMaster> sound blaster live cards have a ridiculous number of mixer controls. This image was stitched together from multiple screenshots:
14:28:13 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMzczMA/sblive_mixer_controls.png
14:28:24 <AnMaster> (warning: *very* wide)
14:28:37 <FireFly> hah
14:28:38 <FireFly> nice one
14:28:41 <FireFly> Hm
14:28:45 <FireFly> not THAT wide
14:29:13 <ehird> "This behavior can occur if the account you are using to connect with has a null (blank) password. You cannot establish Remote Desktop connections when you are using an account with a null password."
14:29:22 <ehird> tl;dr my windows doesn't work because Administrator has no password
14:29:25 <ehird> not that i was given a choice
14:29:37 <AnMaster> FireFly, well, sure it could have been worse, if I had managed to get alsamixer to also show those of the on-board chipset. About two screenshots would have been needed for that one
14:29:45 <ehird> FireFly: 4240 pixels isn't wide? I would like to purchase your display(s).
14:29:51 <AnMaster> unlike the 6 or so for the sbLive card
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14:30:01 <FireFly> Of course I need to scroll
14:30:04 <FireFly> but it isn't THAT wide
14:30:15 <FireFly> in terms of large images
14:30:21 <ehird> Even the 27 inch iMac only has 2560 pixels. And the T221 only has 3840.
14:30:34 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I wonder if it *is* possible to get a single display that wide.
14:30:47 <ehird> AnMaster: physically, yes
14:30:48 <AnMaster> since 42" monitors and such tends to have fairly low DPI
14:30:57 <ehird> In practice? If you go to a manufacturer with a lot of money, probably.
14:31:01 <ehird> aha, I can log into this XP with safe mode
14:31:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, in pixels, and physical one monitor
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14:31:05 <AnMaster> ehird, oh custom order?
14:31:06 <ehird> and use it to change the password
14:31:08 <AnMaster> only?
14:31:26 <AnMaster> I meant "more or less off the shelf"
14:31:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Not custom order... more like "here's $50 million dollars — design and produce one model".
14:31:58 * ehird starts stripped down XP in safe mode
14:32:07 <ehird> Windows is pretty simple if you cut down all the shit. :P
14:32:14 <ehird> Yay, login succeeded!
14:32:28 <ehird> "If you prefer to use System Restore to […]"
14:32:28 <ehird> How can I? I removed that component from the CD.
14:32:40 <AnMaster> ehird, the resolution sucks in safe mode iirc
14:32:41 <ehird> We have a taskbar; that's reassuring.
14:32:51 <AnMaster> forgot if you could change it
14:32:57 <ehird> 640x480x32 isn't bad...
14:33:08 <ehird> I'm only using this to add an account or whatever.
14:33:30 <ehird> Tee hee; the only type you can choose is Windows Classic style, and the only two schemes are Windows Classic and Windows Staandard.
14:33:32 <ehird> *Standard
14:33:37 <ehird> XP handles being lobotomised surprisingly well.
14:34:00 <ehird> "Screen saver
14:34:00 <ehird> [ (None) | V ]
14:34:00 <ehird> | Blank"
14:34:06 <ehird> Exciting choice
14:34:20 <ehird> Desktop background choices: "(None)"
14:34:40 <AnMaster> ehird, 640x480x32 isn't too bad on 1) CRT 2) virtualization in window. However it is horrible on a TFT with a native res of 1280x1024. And imagine it on a wide screen tft
14:35:16 <ehird> http://imgur.com/Z8PrO.png
14:35:21 <AnMaster> ehird, in what way is it stripped down?
14:35:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Over 50% of Windows components removed.
14:35:41 <ehird> CD is over 400 megs smaller.
14:35:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you did it?
14:35:46 <ehird> Yes, with nLite.
14:35:48 <AnMaster> ah
14:35:52 <ehird> I also integrated SP3 into it.
14:35:56 <ehird> AnMaster: nLite isn't an automated thing or anything
14:36:05 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
14:36:05 <ehird> It just gives you a checkbox for every single damn component in the whole system
14:36:09 <AnMaster> I see
14:36:14 <AnMaster> ehird, dependency checks?
14:36:18 <ehird> And also lets you integrate service packs and stuff automatically, but the main bulk was that.
14:36:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes.
14:36:31 <AnMaster> well okay, could have been worse
14:36:39 <AnMaster> is it possible to drop IE?
14:37:09 <ehird> The browser executable, yes. The rendering engine, yes (but you'll have to remove a bunch of other stuff too. Most of the stuff that depends on it is useless, though, except for the file manager and .chm help files)
14:37:20 <ehird> I chose to keep both so I could download a browser with ease.
14:37:29 <ehird> The actual .exe file is tiny, it just calls up the DLL pretty much
14:37:37 <AnMaster> I assume windows update won't work on that thing any more
14:37:42 <ehird> Yes it will.
14:37:48 <AnMaster> also, how much disk space does the clean install use?
14:38:00 <AnMaster> ehird, no issues with it trying to update non-existent files?
14:38:08 <ehird> Just checked. 1.13 gigs
14:38:22 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think so.
14:38:30 <AnMaster> mhm
14:38:31 <ehird> "[X] Allow Indexing Service to index this disk for fast file searching"
14:38:38 <ehird> But you don't HAVE indexing service, Windows. :)
14:39:14 <ehird> I kept in the important stuff of course. FreeCell, Hearts, Minesweeper, Solitaiire and Spider Solitaire are all there.
14:39:19 <ehird> As is Paint.
14:39:28 <ehird> And Sound Recorder.
14:39:32 <ehird> but those are all tiny :P
14:39:42 <ehird> No HyperTerminal or anything thoughh
14:40:12 <ehird> I like how I changed start menu submenus to open in 20ms, feels a lot less like waaiting
14:40:14 -!- Pthing has joined.
14:40:17 <ehird> Okay, let's add an account to this thing
14:40:35 <ehird> LOL, the account pictures are all IE's [x] image not found image
14:40:36 <ehird> :-D
14:41:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:41:42 <ehird> Hi ais523.
14:41:43 <AnMaster> ais523, hi there. http://omploader.org/vMzczMA/sblive_mixer_controls.png
14:41:57 <ehird> ais523: I've lobotomised Windows!
14:42:02 <ehird> XP, to be precise.
14:42:18 <ehird> ~100 meg install CD expanding to ~1 gig on disk.
14:42:21 <ehird> Everything must go!
14:42:29 <AnMaster> ais523, was stitched together from multiple screenshots. Image is 4240x833. Shows all the controls for my sound card in alsamixer
14:42:34 <ehird> And it actually runs. ...except you can't log in by default, you have to add a password using safe mode.
14:43:12 <ehird> Oh, I think I could have logged on if I used the username Owner
14:43:15 <ais523> ehird: I think it's incredibly ironic that ~1 gig on disk is considered "small" wrt Windows
14:43:28 <ehird> ais523: It's half of a regular install
14:43:30 <ehird> ais523: It's more the ISO size, anyway
14:43:33 <ehird> I stripped 400 megs off that
14:43:33 <ais523> yes
14:43:42 <ehird> There'll just be some big thingy in XP that everything depends on
14:43:50 <ais523> AnMaster: hmm, I tend not to control my sound card much at all
14:43:54 <ais523> apart from volume balance
14:44:05 <ais523> ehird: was anything of value lost?
14:44:05 <ehird> But seriously, I even made the installer use Windows 2000's installer, which is smaller.
14:44:06 <AnMaster> mhm
14:44:13 <ehird> ais523: Well, I'm about to do my first non-safe mode login.
14:44:14 <ehird> We'll see.
14:44:20 <ehird> Nothing's broken yet.
14:44:40 <ehird> ais523: And it boots to the login screen in seconds.
14:44:52 <ehird> The little XP loading spinner doesn't even do a full lap.
14:45:19 <AnMaster> ehird, nice
14:45:40 <ehird> I'm going to convert the VirtualBox VM to use SATA, not IDE, soon.
14:45:45 <ehird> That'll make it even faster
14:45:53 <ehird> (VBox's SATA emulation is faster than its IDE emulation)
14:46:00 <ais523> ehird: hmm, you're confirming certain suspicions I have about Windows
14:46:06 <ehird> ais523: like?
14:46:21 <ais523> I've suspected for a while its slowness is for marketing reasons, indirectly
14:46:26 <ais523> rather than anything fundamnetal
14:46:28 <ais523> *fundamental
14:46:32 <ehird> I seem to have done the rather worrying thing here of making Windows XP into a small, fast, rather reasonable desktop OS
14:46:56 <ehird> Why do my Windows experiments always end in me somehow putting Windows in a good position?
14:46:57 <ais523> I suspect whatever you've ended up with will be rather insecure, but I'm not even sure of that
14:47:05 <ais523> ehird: because Windows isn't inherently unreasonable
14:47:05 <ehird> ais523: I didn't remove any security stuff
14:47:12 <ehird> In fact, I removed a lot of things like NetBIOS over TCP/IP
14:47:15 <ehird> If anything it's more secure
14:47:20 <ais523> ehird: I'd expect security updates to either fail to apply or add them back
14:47:24 <ais523> due to the typical way they're packaged
14:47:33 <ehird> I'm not sure, people update nLite systems a lot as far as I know
14:47:37 <ehird> So I guess it works alright
14:47:48 <ehird> (nLite is the tool that lets you disable components of Windows)
14:48:13 <ehird> nLite :: ISOContents Windows -> [WindowsComponent] -> ISO Windows
14:48:13 <ehird> :-P
14:48:26 <ehird> was a pain chasing dependencies and stuff to make sure the basics worked though
14:48:33 <ehird> Anyway, let's see how much stuff works
14:48:44 <ais523> meanwhile, my office computer (running Windows 7) is having sufficient compatibility problems that the computer support people are putting a Windows XP VM on it
14:49:00 <ais523> in an attempt to actually run the programs that its purpose is to run
14:49:11 <ehird> ais523: your organisation is collectively braindead
14:49:14 <ais523> (personally I blame it on Xilinx for writing unportable code, but that's another matter...)
14:49:38 <ehird> [X] Use visual styles on windows and buttons
14:49:46 <ehird> I love how Windows is convinced it has all the components I removed
14:49:49 <AnMaster> <ehird> I'm going to convert the VirtualBox VM to use SATA, not IDE, soon. <-- oops. Windows XP. SATA. Oops
14:49:53 <ehird> I'm running into references to them every few minutes
14:49:59 <ehird> AnMaster: you just have to install the drivers.
14:50:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I got it to work but needed a floppy with drivers during the install
14:50:14 <ehird> I tried that but it failed to copy the drivers
14:50:14 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't manage to switch after install
14:50:18 <ehird> Meh
14:50:22 <ehird> I'll google for help
14:50:27 <AnMaster> ehird, 32-bit xp?
14:50:29 <ais523> ehird: you could save even more by removing the references!
14:50:34 <AnMaster> for 64-bit xp there seems to be no drivers
14:50:45 <ehird> ais523: XD
14:50:48 <ehird> AnMaster: 32-bit.
14:50:58 <ais523> a useful trick is that most of the strings used by a Windows application are stored in the resource object, rather than the executable part
14:51:00 <ehird> Who uses XP x64? People who want to use Windows XP without caring about application compatibility. i.e. idiots
14:51:16 <ais523> so you can change them with a resource editor without disturbing the rest of the aplication
14:51:21 <ehird> ais523: Also, the install was faster than Ubuntu's install on real hardware
14:51:22 <ais523> AnMaster: I specifically requested 32-bit
14:51:22 <ehird> No joke
14:51:29 <ehird> The actual copying of files took about 1.5 minutes
14:51:41 <ais523> given that the programs are known to have 64-bit compatibility issues
14:51:52 <ais523> ehird: doesn't actually surprise me, although I assume Ubuntu could be cut down to be faster than Windows
14:52:08 <ehird> I renamed C:\Documents and Settings to C:\Users :-)
14:52:13 <ais523> because Ubuntu installs drivers for every piece of hardware it supports by default, Windows copies some .cabs over instead
14:52:24 <ehird> Although I couldn't find where to rename C:\Program Files to C:\Programs
14:52:33 <ais523> given that Ubuntu has better hardware support than Windows XP included with the OS, that's going to be more drivers
14:52:37 <ais523> ehird: Vista?
14:52:48 <ehird> Vista doesn't do that
14:52:49 * ais523 runs
14:52:58 <ehird> well
14:53:04 <ehird> vista does C:\Users
14:53:06 <ehird> but not \Programs
14:53:15 -!- nsinreal has left (?).
14:53:28 * ehird greps the registry for Program Files
14:53:53 <ehird> Eh, quite a lot of stuff referring to dlls
14:54:02 <ehird> If only regedit had a global search and replace >:)
14:54:16 * ehird deletes AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS.
14:54:19 <ais523> storing the name of a dll in the registry is an incredibly bad idea, from what I remember of Windows development
14:54:22 <ehird> Honestly, why are they even there? They're not even loaded.
14:54:28 <ehird> ais523: Well, Microsoft does it.
14:54:35 <ais523> so? that doesn't mean it's a good idea
14:54:41 <ehird> :P
14:54:45 * ehird also deletes IO.SYS
14:54:54 <ehird> And MSDOS.SYS...
14:55:12 <ehird> WTF Windows just replaced them
14:55:14 <ais523> I once extracted the entire source code for a wizard that made Microsoft Binder files
14:55:16 <ehird> I thought I disabled that
14:55:21 <ais523> because it had all been written in VBA for Excel
14:55:33 <ais523> and it just took a simple macro command to turn the vbVeryHidden flag off on the macros
14:56:01 <ehird> lol Elliott is still in \Users\Owner
14:56:05 <ais523> (hidden can be false (not hidden), true (hidden, but you can unhide it via the GUI), very-hidden (hidden, and you need to use a macro to hide it))
14:56:07 <ehird> Incidentally, XEmacs is quite nice on Windows
14:56:11 <ehird> although ugly
14:56:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> WTF Windows just replaced them <-- WFP
14:56:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but I disabled that
14:56:26 <ehird> Maybe it reset it after the install
14:56:27 <AnMaster> ah okay
14:56:32 <ehird> (Disabling WFP speeds up the install loads apparently)
14:56:38 <ais523> what's WFP?
14:56:41 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I believe autoexec.bat is used for cmd.exe
14:56:45 <ehird> Windows File Protection
14:56:49 <AnMaster> config.sys is not though
14:56:51 <AnMaster> iirc
14:56:53 <ehird> Change or delete a file Windows likes?
14:56:53 <ehird> BAM!
14:56:55 <ais523> AnMaster: no, autoexec.nt I thought
14:56:56 <ehird> You're reverted in seconds.
14:57:02 <AnMaster> ais523, oh, maybe
14:57:41 <ais523> which nicely violates Windows' file-extension-indicates-file-type convention
14:57:51 <ais523> as there's config.nt too with an entirely different format
14:58:01 <AnMaster> ehird, WFP is just the first step towards making windows viral
14:58:16 <AnMaster> in the future, it will take over other partitions, not just protect itself
14:58:19 <ehird> del /F /A:H IO.SYS
14:58:21 <ehird> Feels good man
14:58:34 <AnMaster> ehird, reverted yet?
14:58:51 <ehird> Nope, apparently Windows doesn't keep a backup of them I guess
14:58:59 <ehird> I guess it just fished them out of \RECYCLER beforehand
14:59:05 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure a backup copy is how it works
14:59:09 <AnMaster> hrrm
14:59:20 * ais523 vaguely flabbergasts
14:59:39 <ehird> http://www.windowsnetworking.com/articles_tutorials/Tweaking-XP-Windows-File-Protection-SP2.html
14:59:39 <ehird> Disabling WFP involves hex editing a system DLL. Noted.
15:00:20 <ais523> not really, you could do it in octal instead
15:00:36 <AnMaster> ais523, :D
15:00:36 * ehird sets start menu to classic
15:03:06 <ehird> Anyone know if there's a program that empties the recycle bin in Windows XP by default?
15:03:10 <ehird> Would like to add it to my start menu.
15:04:42 <ais523> you could write a one-line batch script, and add that to your start menu
15:04:50 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/AYA7q.png
15:04:52 <ehird> Some choice
15:05:01 <ehird> ais523: I kinda like the Windows confirm prompt, though. :P
15:05:07 <ehird> But yeah, I could. I will.
15:05:16 <ais523> ehird: five lines of VBSctipy, then (ugh)
15:05:23 <ais523> *VBScript
15:05:26 <ehird> I could just use JScript with WSH
15:05:34 <ehird> Same objects, after all
15:06:26 <ehird> Oi, laugh at http://i.imgur.com/AYA7q.png
15:06:39 <augur> ehird, is that your doing?
15:06:50 <ehird> Incidentally I not only purged the animated dog from search, but reverted the entire search UI to win2k's
15:06:52 <ehird> augur: define that
15:06:57 <augur> windows inside sun inside max os?
15:07:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> I could just use JScript with WSH <-- you installed jscript support?
15:07:16 <ehird> Sun is the company that makes VirtualBox, you dolt :P
15:07:25 <ehird> AnMaster: It's part of IE
15:07:40 <ehird> augur: The thing to laugh at is the fact that Search is a menu with only one item
15:07:43 -!- soupdragon has quit ("Leaving").
15:07:46 <ehird> Due to my evil lobotomising of Windows
15:07:46 <AnMaster> ehird, vbscript too?
15:07:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't know
15:07:55 <augur> true
15:08:24 <AnMaster> ehird, how many colours is the system set to
15:08:30 <ehird> 32bit
15:08:53 <AnMaster> ehird, really? why does the blue bar on the side of the start menu look like it was dithered to 8 bits then
15:08:56 -!- soupdragon has joined.
15:09:03 <ais523> AnMaster: because IIRC it's a bitmap
15:09:08 <ehird> That's just how it is
15:09:14 <ais523> that actually /is/ dithered to 8 bits, or possibly even less
15:09:15 <AnMaster> ais523, mhm. Bitmaps can be 32-bit you know ;P
15:09:18 <ehird> The actual gradient isn't 8-bit, I don't think
15:09:19 <AnMaster> right
15:09:20 <ehird> Te text is just ugly
15:09:23 <ehird> *The
15:09:35 <AnMaster> ehird, why home edition
15:09:40 <ehird> Because
15:09:43 -!- soupdragon has quit (Client Quit).
15:09:48 <ehird> I downloaded home edition because it was what I had my serial for
15:09:53 <AnMaster> ah
15:09:55 <ehird> Pro = Home + some useless settings nobody uses
15:09:57 <ehird> big deal
15:10:08 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah like ACLs on files
15:10:10 <AnMaster> though
15:10:15 <ais523> I thought Home was banned from joining a network (other than the Internet)
15:10:18 <AnMaster> there is a trick to get that in XP home outside safe mode
15:10:22 <ehird> ais523: Who cares
15:10:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Who cares
15:10:35 <AnMaster> you had to replace some files with files from a 2000 or NT 4 hotfix
15:10:37 <AnMaster> iirc
15:10:37 <ais523> ehird: businesses care, presumably
15:10:46 <fizzie> Home indeed can't join a domain properly.
15:10:49 <AnMaster> then suddenly, full file permissions
15:11:09 <fizzie> It can be a part of a workgroup, though, I think.
15:11:09 <ehird> Time to write some JScript!
15:11:50 * ehird creates \home for storing stuff
15:12:21 <ehird> \home\tools\recycle.js. Like some evil bastard lovechild of Unix.
15:12:36 <fizzie> I have here a Samba-controlled Windows domain, though with a total of one (1) Windows machines I'm not quite sure why.
15:12:37 <ehird> Sweet, it works
15:12:45 <ehird> WScript.Echo("Hello, world!");
15:12:45 <ehird> WScript.Quit();
15:12:52 <ehird> Don't let anybody tell you Windows doesn't come with development tools
15:13:02 <ehird> (That displays a GUI dialog box, btw.)
15:14:15 <ehird> No, wait, it depends what engine you use
15:14:31 <ehird> Wscript.exe is a dialog box, Cscript.exe just outputs it as text
15:14:46 -!- soupdragon has joined.
15:15:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh
15:15:21 <ehird> >cscript /Nologo recycle.js
15:15:21 <ehird> Hello, world!
15:16:27 -!- soupdragon has quit (Client Quit).
15:20:24 <AnMaster> ehird:
15:20:26 <AnMaster> Targets (1): ghc-6.10.4-1
15:20:26 <AnMaster> Total Download Size: 80.29 MB
15:20:26 <AnMaster> Total Installed Size: 563.95 MB
15:20:28 <AnMaster> wth
15:20:39 <ehird> What about it?
15:20:47 <AnMaster> ehird, over 550 MB
15:20:55 <AnMaster> I'm a bit surprised
15:21:12 <ehird> Maybe it comes with all the profiling libraries or something.
15:21:16 <AnMaster> hm
15:21:22 * AnMaster looks at the pkgbuild
15:21:27 <ehird> Besides, 64-bit code is fatter.
15:21:34 <ehird> And languages like Haskell have a LOT of pointers.
15:21:35 <ehird> a LOT.
15:21:37 <ehird> Think thunks.
15:21:45 <ehird> Every single lazy expression generates a pointer.
15:22:15 -!- soupdragon has joined.
15:22:18 <AnMaster> ehird, sure 64-bit is fatter. But usually not quite as much. Let me check ghc on ubuntu (6.8.2 there, so I would expect slightly smaller)
15:25:20 <ehird> Okay, recycle.js now does everything *but* the actual emptying.
15:25:20 <AnMaster> Installed-Size: 197952
15:25:28 <AnMaster> says apt-cache show
15:25:41 <AnMaster> so around 193 MB
15:26:02 <AnMaster> or MiB you would say
15:26:39 <AnMaster> ehird, those profiling libs. What configure switch would enable then?
15:26:40 <AnMaster> them*
15:26:51 <AnMaster> since arch's PKGBUILD just uses:
15:26:53 <AnMaster> ./configure --prefix=/usr
15:27:02 <ehird> It's in the make configure file
15:27:09 <ehird> AnMaster: But it shouldn't inflate it that much
15:27:11 <AnMaster> ah the:
15:27:13 <ehird> I suggest building GHC yourself
15:27:14 <AnMaster> cp $startdir/build.mk mk/build.mk
15:27:15 <AnMaster> line
15:27:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes probably a good idea
15:27:22 <ehird> It's not hard
15:27:25 <fizzie> Misread a course name in an email: "T-61.9910 Adventures in Matrix and Tensor Factorizations". (It was "Advances" instead; thought someone had a sense of humour there.)
15:27:31 <AnMaster> ehird, takes ages iirc
15:27:36 <AnMaster> and don't you need ghc to do it
15:27:39 <ehird> AnMaster: About three hours.
15:27:43 <ehird> Yes, but you can download a bootstrap GHC.
15:27:50 <ehird> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Building
15:28:00 <AnMaster> # Full build with max optimisation (slow build)
15:28:00 <AnMaster> BuildFlavour = perf
15:28:03 <ehird> If you're going to program in Haskell I suggest enabling the profiling libs
15:28:04 <AnMaster> from that build.mk
15:28:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, don't do that.
15:28:28 <AnMaster> ehird, does that include those profiling libs?
15:28:36 <ehird> Dunno.
15:28:42 <ehird> Just follow the guide on trac :-P
15:28:55 <ehird> Don't build the latest GHC, 6.12, though
15:29:00 <ehird> Not much stuff supports it yet
15:29:02 <ehird> *it yet
15:29:10 <ehird> ais523: grr, DEL /Q \RECYCLER\* doesn't work
15:29:21 <ehird> do you know how to empty the recycle bin from the command line?
15:29:35 <ais523> not offhand
15:29:49 <ais523> I'd have expected that to work...
15:30:01 <ais523> (do you need to specify c:\ rather than just \?)
15:30:04 <ehird> no
15:30:11 <ehird> it's just that \RECYCLER isn't the 'real' recycle bin
15:30:15 <ehird> it just includes fancy recycle binnish files
15:30:30 <AnMaster> ehird, so the recycle bins are inside it?
15:30:48 <AnMaster> that sounds familiar from reinstalling xp side by side with an old xp on some system
15:31:16 <ehird> doing DIR in \RECYCLER gives the header then "File Not Found"
15:31:18 <ehird> which is peculiar
15:33:04 <ehird> http://kitenet.net/~joey/hacker_tombstone/
15:33:04 <ehird> The most depressing Debian-related page you'll read today.
15:35:27 <ehird> Files in the "Recycled" directory are hidden as well, so apply the following command to make them visible:
15:35:27 <ehird> aha
15:35:41 <ehird> DIR /A does it
15:36:23 -!- Asztal has joined.
15:37:00 <ehird> DEL /A: \RECYCLER\*\*, I believe
15:37:11 <ehird> */A:H
15:38:04 <ehird> Tada
15:38:31 <ehird> var WshShell = new ActiveXObject("WScript.Shell");
15:38:32 <ehird> if (WshShell.Popup("Do you want to empty the recycle bin?", 0, "Empty Recycle Bin", 4 + 32) == 1)
15:38:32 <ehird> WshShell.Exec("DEL /A:H /Q \\RECYCLER\\*\\*");
15:38:40 <ehird> Let's see you Linuxers do that in three lines :P
15:38:59 <ehird> (0 = timeout; 4 = buttons are Yes/No; 32 = question mark icon)
15:41:30 <ehird> Woot, all done and added to the start menu
15:41:34 <ehird> That was surprisingly painless
15:42:09 <ehird> It surprises me how nothing's broken yet
15:42:15 <ehird> ais523: quick, give me something you think I broke :P
15:43:05 <ais523> hmm, /me thinks
15:43:15 <ais523> the issue is, most of the things you're more likely to have broken you probably don't care about anyway
15:43:17 <ais523> like printer sharing
15:43:27 <ehird> Printers? Who said I had printer support?
15:43:30 <Ilari> 'Xdialog --yesno "Empty recycle bin?" 0 0 && rm -rf <...>' (or something). But that also needs shellbang line.
15:43:34 <ais523> ehird: exactly
15:43:48 <ehird> I literally don't have any support for printers or scanners, even PDF printers.
15:43:50 <ehird> But who uses them!
15:43:53 <ais523> Ilari: that would be 2 lines, then
15:44:00 <ehird> Ilari: That doesn't need a shebang line.
15:44:06 <ehird> It defaults to /bin/sh.
15:44:07 <ais523> ehird: I use PDF printers, then take the PDF to another computer and produce hardcopy from it
15:44:17 <ais523> ehird: it defaults to whatever shell you're running it from
15:44:26 <ehird> Well, what happens if you run it from e.g. a GNOME menu?
15:44:28 <ais523> and fails to run if it doesn't have a shebang and are running from outside a shell, I think
15:44:34 <ehird> Alright then.
15:44:40 <fizzie> Ilari: That's not three lines, though. (I was writing one with dialog instead of xdialog.)
15:44:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> Let's see you Linuxers do that in three lines :P <-- probably done with dbus these days
15:44:53 <AnMaster> *shurg*
15:45:37 <ehird> ais523: I considered removing 16-bit support but decided against it
15:45:45 <ehird> Who doesn't love 16-bit programs
15:45:50 <AnMaster> NAME
15:45:50 <AnMaster> dbus-binding-tool - audio previewer for the GNOME desktop.
15:45:53 <ais523> most of my programs were 16-bit
15:45:54 <AnMaster> I believe that is way way off
15:45:59 <ehird> Excellent, FreeCell works
15:45:59 <ais523> it was more reliable than 32-bit, I'm not sure why
15:46:08 <ais523> my current theory is bitflips in the 32-bit compiler I had
15:46:13 -!- jpc has joined.
15:46:36 <ehird> I wonder what browser I should put on this.
15:46:44 <ehird> Perhaps K-Meleon; that's suitably weird.
15:47:15 <ehird> I didn't include Calculator because you should be using Frink. :-)
15:47:35 <pikhq> package require Tk;if {[tk_messageBox -type yesno -icon question -message "Do you want to empty the recycle bin?"]} {exec "rm -rf ~/trash"}
15:47:46 <ehird> pikhq: Hey, no multiple statements on one line
15:47:51 <ehird> But very good.
15:47:58 <ehird> Although.
15:48:01 <ehird> That removes ~/trash itself.
15:48:03 <pikhq> ehird: Fine, then it's 3 lines.
15:48:05 <ehird> ITYM rm -rf ~/trash/*
15:48:10 <pikhq> Yeah.
15:48:14 <ehird> pikhq: 3 lines? What bracing style are you using?
15:48:21 <ehird> Surely 4 lines at the least
15:48:26 <ais523> what lang is that?
15:48:26 <ehird> Yeah, I know, no fair :-)
15:48:29 <ehird> ais523: tcl
15:48:42 <ehird> It would be even shorter in REBOL :-) http://www.rebol.com/oneliners.html
15:48:43 <pikhq> ehird: Well, strictly speaking it's only *two* commands.
15:48:47 <AnMaster> ehird, dbus-monitor indicates that dbus *is* involved both in moving files to trash and in emptying trash
15:48:57 <AnMaster> why on earth I don't know
15:49:10 <ais523> AnMaster: to determine where the trash dir is, I think
15:49:17 <ehird> If a language can make an internet-accessing GUI program shorter than REBOL, that's some achievement.
15:49:30 <pikhq> Fine, I'll make it two lines.
15:49:57 <pikhq> package require Tk;expr {[tk_messageBox -type yesno -icon question -message "Do you want to empty the recycle bin?"]?[exec "rm -rf ~/trash"]:0}
15:50:09 <ehird> That is so cheating.
15:50:12 <ehird> I could do that in JS too. :P
15:50:19 <pikhq> So very cheating.
15:50:20 <AnMaster> ais523, looked more like a move command the the gnome vfs layer
15:50:22 <AnMaster> and a remove one
15:50:25 <AnMaster> with byte arrays
15:50:36 <AnMaster> probably filename, didn't bother trying to put them together
15:50:43 <AnMaster> method call sender=:1.739 -> dest=org.gtk.vfs.Metadata serial=2 path=/org/gtk/vfs/metadata; interface=org.gtk.vfs.Metadata; member=Remove
15:50:43 <AnMaster> array [
15:50:43 <AnMaster> byte 47
15:50:43 <AnMaster> byte 104
15:50:45 <AnMaster> [...]
15:51:19 <ehird> TODO: Get a nicer browser. Get Java. Get Frink. Do updates at some point. Get Corman Lisp.
15:51:27 <ehird> Get Emacs.
15:51:51 <AnMaster> well since the first few ones form "/home" and I can't be arsed to work out the rest
15:51:55 <AnMaster> I guess it is a path
15:54:26 <ehird> Abuh?
15:54:36 <ehird> I just got 700 kb a sec.
15:54:42 <ehird> ...And am getting sustained 180 kb a sec.
15:54:46 <AnMaster> "abuh"?
15:54:50 <ehird> My link maxes out below 160 or thereabouts.
15:54:57 <ehird> AnMaster: An expression of extreme surprise.
15:55:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you only have 160 kb down?
15:55:19 <ehird> AnMaster: We pay for 8 megabits, but this fucking village uses the nearest town's exchange
15:55:29 <AnMaster> oh right, remember now
15:55:31 <ehird> It's only a few miles away, but it caps out my download below 200k
15:55:34 <ehird> Fucking thing sucks
15:55:46 <ehird> Wanna move to Scandinavia and get 100 mb :(
15:55:46 <AnMaster> ehird, so why not pay for less, or will you get even less then?
15:56:02 <AnMaster> also aren't there rules about how many percent of the stated sped that you have to get at least
15:56:03 <ehird> AnMaster: we just haven't got around to it, or maybe we are and i just don't know it
15:56:14 <ehird> Also, no. We transferred from the previous house.
15:56:16 <AnMaster> speed*
15:56:24 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
15:56:34 <ehird> Hm what?
15:57:21 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway ~700-760 kilobyte is what I get during good conditions here. Pay for 8 megabit down
15:57:52 <AnMaster> ehird, so I guess it just happened to be good conditions for a few seconds
15:58:09 <ehird> No, it showed all the signs of being rate-limited.
15:58:22 <ehird> That happens, often: you get the unlimited speed and then it gets clocked down by the ISP.
15:58:24 <ehird> ...So, ???
16:03:51 <AnMaster> ehird, very strange. Also that doesn't happen much here. Does happen at university though
16:04:02 <AnMaster> I blame the wlan
16:04:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess they try to be nice to short burts
16:04:21 <AnMaster> probably useful for some commonly used tech
16:05:03 <ehird> No, it's probably that their rate limiter is asynchronous
16:05:08 <AnMaster> ehird, oh?
16:05:10 <ehird> Making it run on every piece of traffic, blocking it, would be crazy
16:05:11 <AnMaster> hm maybe
16:05:21 <ehird> So I'm guessing that the rate limiter is a separate process that limits the stream
16:05:29 <ehird> And it takes a second or so to kick in
16:05:31 <AnMaster> ehird, couldn't they physically limit the link speed
16:05:40 <ehird> Wouldn't that require using different cables
16:05:47 <AnMaster> like, 100 mbit ethernet isn't artificially rate limited 1 gbit ethernet
16:05:55 <AnMaster> ehird, hm maybe
16:06:17 <ehird> 100 mbit, wonderful
16:06:21 <ehird> Now give me an 8 mbit ethernet cable
16:06:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I believe it is due to the interface rather
16:07:26 <AnMaster> if they made the interface in the exchange not handle more than a given speed, there would be no need for rate limiting in other ways would there?
16:07:44 * ehird tries Opera as a lightweight windows browesr
16:07:46 <ehird> *browser
16:07:47 <AnMaster> ehird, also, don't you need a cat6 rather than cat5e for 10 gbit ethernet?
16:08:03 <AnMaster> ehird, vonkeror! *runs*
16:08:04 <ehird> AnMaster: why do all of this when you can save money by having a flexible rate limiter
16:08:17 <ehird> Vonkeror is hardly lightweight, it uses Gecko. :-)
16:08:31 <AnMaster> ehird, [cue: suspiciously] are you trying to be practical?
16:08:48 <ehird> No! I will use telnet.
16:08:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant for rate limiting
16:08:57 * ehird ...phew... close one
16:08:58 <AnMaster> not for browser
16:08:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh. :P
16:09:54 <ehird> YET ANOTHER FEATURE OF DYNAMIC LINKING: The linker has to topologically sort the objects!
16:10:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it does?
16:10:29 <ehird> yep
16:10:46 <AnMaster> weird
16:10:56 <ehird> Fun worst case performance there
16:11:10 <AnMaster> but why
16:11:13 <AnMaster> does it have to do that
16:11:27 <ehird> Not sure, but Ulrich Drepper says it's true and he's probably right.
16:11:35 <ehird> He does know rather a lot about dynamic linking, except that it's shit.
16:11:49 <ehird> Ugh, I wish my mouse would stop glitching fake middle clicks in virtualbox
16:11:55 <AnMaster> ehird, how many libraries are usually involved?
16:12:00 <ehird> Objects.
16:12:03 <ehird> Object files.
16:12:21 <AnMaster> ehird, oh not ld.so? but ld?
16:12:24 <ehird> So... all of the object files in your program/library, and all the dynamic libraries you use.
16:12:33 <ehird> AnMaster: I think so, anyway.
16:13:17 <AnMaster> ehird, because for ld.so I think the stuff it would be required to sort is fairly small. So the n wouldn't be too bad
16:13:42 <AnMaster> however, for ld wouldn't it have to do the same for static linking too?
16:13:48 <AnMaster> since ld is used for that as well
16:13:53 <ehird> I don't know! I'm just parroting Drepper.
16:14:22 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if it did, ld wouldn't depend on the libraries used by an object to be listed *after* said object. would it?
16:14:30 <ehird> I
16:14:31 <ehird> DON'T
16:14:31 <ehird> KNOW
16:14:34 <AnMaster> so it must refer to the runtime linker, otherwise it wouldn't make sense
16:14:37 <fizzie> In any case where you have to load thing A before thing B because B depends on A, topological sorting comes up pretty naturally.
16:14:45 <AnMaster> ehird, rhetorical question
16:15:55 <fizzie> Rhetorical question for a rhesus monkey. (Free-associating here.)
16:16:22 <AnMaster> why do so many touchscreens seems to react slowly
16:16:30 <AnMaster> used one yesterday on a copy machine
16:16:32 <ehird> Because the underlying hardware is shit.
16:16:41 <AnMaster> ehird, is it fast on iphone btw?
16:16:48 <ehird> Also because they don't use capacitive touchscreens.
16:16:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Instant.
16:16:59 <AnMaster> pure guess is that it is related to denouncing of some source
16:17:01 <AnMaster> sort*
16:17:02 <ehird> People _do_ play touch-based games on them, you know. It wouldn't exactly work with lag.
16:17:05 <AnMaster> (weird typo that)
16:17:06 <cheater> i wish iphone could record conversations
16:17:17 <ehird> cheater: just get the nsa to wiretap you
16:17:27 <cheater> it's actually a pretty big thing to me
16:17:29 <AnMaster> cheater, can't you write an app to do it?
16:17:31 <cheater> to record convos
16:17:33 <cheater> no
16:17:38 <ehird> or buy two iphones, and use voice notes on the other one to record the conveersation
16:17:38 <AnMaster> ?
16:17:40 <ehird> *conversation
16:17:45 <cheater> the api does not allow direct access to the telephone layer
16:17:51 <ehird> AnMaster: the telcos wouldn't let you access the telephone shit, dude
16:18:04 <ehird> they make sure all that's proprietary
16:18:07 <cheater> ehird: some/many telephones allow you to record voice convos tho
16:18:10 <AnMaster> cheater, oh I thought you meant in the room.
16:18:15 <AnMaster> as in, taking notes
16:18:17 <AnMaster> or whatever
16:18:24 <ehird> AnMaster: o_o
16:18:44 <cheater> a lot of people think that
16:18:49 <AnMaster> anyway it doesn't sound like it would be impossible with android
16:18:52 <cheater> and i have no idea where they come up with that
16:18:59 <cheater> android is gay though
16:19:01 <cheater> no cool apps
16:19:03 <cheater> no cool games
16:19:06 <ehird> android isn't open either
16:19:14 <AnMaster> cheater, is that your primary use for a phone? ;P
16:19:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well maybe, I'm no expert
16:19:22 <ehird> the iphone is a phone only in name ffs
16:19:30 <fizzie> Quite a lot of phones also beep when they're recording conversations; that's some rule or another too.
16:19:33 <ehird> telephone is like 15% of its use
16:19:37 <cheater> if i am going to buy an expensive telephone it might as well be something that makes my life more enjoyable
16:19:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could make voice controlled games
16:19:50 <cheater> fizzle: that rule is not required by law.
16:20:04 <AnMaster> for multiple players
16:20:09 <cheater> AnMaster: you can access the microphone.. but not when there's a conversation happening.
16:20:17 <ehird> AnMaster: nintendo want to hire you
16:20:20 <AnMaster> cheater, see "<AnMaster> for multiple players"
16:20:24 <AnMaster> ehird, hah :P
16:20:26 <ehird> they're working on a new console, the Spiik
16:20:41 <cheater> AnMaster, see $myBallsack
16:20:43 <ehird> after their previous urination-based interface didn't sell
16:20:47 <ehird> AnMaster: wat
16:20:47 <AnMaster> cheater, of course I guess packet data would work
16:20:49 <AnMaster> cheater, ?
16:20:52 <ehird> erm
16:20:53 <cheater> :P
16:20:53 <ehird> cheater: wat
16:20:54 <ehird> rather
16:21:03 <ehird> oh i see you're in ##php
16:21:09 <ehird> BANISH! BANISH!
16:21:16 <cheater> i sometimes ask them funny questions like
16:21:16 * ehird WAK !!
16:21:17 * ehird WAK !!
16:21:18 * ehird WAK !!
16:21:23 <cheater> 'what is a design pattern'
16:21:24 <fizzie> I have no clue how accessible the telephone audio side is on Maemo, since this N900 is the first one that is actually a phone too.
16:21:25 <AnMaster> is "$myBallsack" supposed to make sense
16:21:27 * ehird pitchfork →→→→
16:21:28 <cheater> and they get confused for 30 minutes
16:21:32 * ehird ←←← CHEATER
16:21:37 * ehird pitchCHEATERfork
16:21:42 <ehird> you are dead now
16:21:53 <cheater> that might be why i feel so shit today
16:21:58 <cheater> that or going to sleep at 5 am
16:22:16 <AnMaster> uh uh, undead
16:22:39 * ehird considers giving up his weirdness quest and just installing chrome
16:22:40 <fizzie> What I do know is that the Asterisk port in the Maemo repository isn't (yet, at least) tied to the telephony side of the phone. Audio might be already doable, though.
16:23:23 <AnMaster> can't you get a GSM chipset? Supposedly Apple, Nokia and so on got that from somewhere
16:23:45 <AnMaster> then use that to build your own. Hm probably need some certification to be allowed :(
16:23:58 <ehird> AnMaster — solving problems the telcos say you can't with technological means since 2009
16:23:59 <ehird> ...
16:24:00 <ehird> 2010
16:24:20 <cheater> AnMaster: that was just an answer to you being a smartass :p
16:24:42 <ehird> he's not being a smartass this is how AnMaster actually approaches problems like these
16:24:54 <fizzie> OpenMoko's pretty open -- I guess that's one of the reasons it doesn't do 3G, or something.
16:25:01 <ehird> with "couldn't you do that by using the api or buying a chip" or whatever matter-of-factly
16:25:02 <cheater> no i mean 'see x' earlier
16:25:09 <cheater> but
16:25:11 <ehird> Openmoko is dead, hooray
16:25:19 <cheater> either way
16:25:26 <cheater> i wish iphone could record conversations.
16:25:38 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/1112FIC326x550.jpg
16:25:38 <ehird> SO STYLISH
16:26:23 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't chrome go out of fashion ages ago?
16:26:40 <AnMaster> and black goes with everything of course
16:26:46 <fizzie> Interwebs say that N900 can record conversations; you just apt-get install pulseaudio-tools, then use parec to record the sink.hw0.monitor and source.hw0 streams to file.
16:26:55 <fizzie> Very user-friendly.
16:27:25 <ehird> http://www.dukebox.com/photos/jukebox10r.jpg
16:27:30 <ehird> archos jukebox^W^Wnokia n900
16:28:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, quite.
16:28:03 <fizzie> Though someone else said that the desktop load-monitor widget (!) can also record calls. That's an... obvious place for the feature.
16:28:37 <AnMaster> ehird, hm?
16:28:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, :D
16:30:54 * ehird installs Java and Frink.
16:31:00 <ehird> actually
16:31:04 * ehird installs virtualbox tools first
16:31:06 <fizzie> The load applet (according to package desc) takes screenshots and records screencasts, so it's not too rprising if they've added call-recording too. (It's a third-party app, not part of the phone software, of course.)
16:31:07 <ehird> to avoid the mouse issue
16:32:04 <ehird> this system is really snappy
16:32:38 <AnMaster> ehird, mouse issue is your name for "mouse grabbed by guest"?
16:33:03 <ehird> Mouse issue is my name for "middle clicks happen sporadically that I didn't make".
16:33:07 <ehird> This happened in a Linux VM too.
16:33:16 <ehird> Using Mouse Integration fixes it.
16:33:16 <ehird> VirtualBox is teh dum.
16:33:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I never had that issue. Is it OS X hosts only?
16:34:06 <ehird> I don't know. It may be an issue with my trackball.
16:35:10 <AnMaster> ehird, did it happen before you used it?
16:35:23 <ehird> I don't know. I don't think so. Why are you asking me? It doesn't really matter.
16:35:26 <fizzie> I seem to remember mooz once hacked together a copy of win95 that was capable of booting to the GUI from a CD, completely without touching the hd. A ramdisk was involved; still, it was a a neat trick.
16:35:45 <ehird> Windows 95. Bah! Real men use Windows NT 4.0.
16:35:59 <ehird> It's like 95 but with worse configuration and slightly stabler and it doesn't support games.
16:36:07 <ehird> ...Windows NT 4.0. Bah! Real men use Windows 95.
16:36:25 <fizzie> Real men do all kinds of craze stuff, based on what I hear on IRC.
16:36:31 <ehird> Craze stuff.
16:36:35 <fizzie> Yes.
16:36:48 <fizzie> Crazeeeee stuff.
16:37:01 <ehird> It seems that Windows either does not think I have a floppy drive, or does not support floppy drives.
16:37:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> Windows 95. Bah! Real men use Windows NT 4.0. <-- 3.1
16:37:44 <ehird> 3.1 is for homosexuals and pussies.
16:37:57 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry I meant windows 3.1 for worksgroup
16:37:59 <AnMaster> not NT 3.1
16:38:09 <ehird> Homosexuals, pussies and clowns.
16:38:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I doubt the first category wants anything to do with 3.1 for worksgroups
16:38:35 <AnMaster> and I don't know about cats
16:38:43 <AnMaster> clowns yeah
16:38:56 <ehird> No, it's ACTUAL VAGINAS that use 3.1 for Workgroups.
16:38:59 <ehird> I have this on good authority.
16:39:12 <fizzie> 3.11 for Workgroups is I think more popular. Though I do seem to remember a WfW3.1 existing too.
16:39:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh maybe it was 3.11
16:39:31 <AnMaster> hm
16:39:42 <ehird> Removing the titlebar gradiennt from Windows makes it look so... 95.
16:39:46 <ehird> Maybe because that's what 95 did.
16:39:47 <ehird> *gradient
16:39:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, 3.[0-9] surely must have existed?
16:40:04 <fizzie> It's usually either win3.1 or wfw3.11
16:40:10 <ais523> Word for (Windows 3.1) had a titlebar gradient
16:40:12 <ehird> 3.1 was the first 3
16:40:15 <ais523> dithered in beautiful 4-bit colour
16:40:26 <AnMaster> oh right, forgot microsoft was involved
16:40:28 <ehird> ais523: Makes a man proud. *tear*
16:40:35 <AnMaster> means versioning is insane
16:40:36 <ais523> and 3.0 existed, the big improvement in 3.1 was support for the 386
16:40:41 <fizzie> But I have a feeling plain 3.1 also had a workgroupsy version.
16:41:11 <AnMaster> ais523, 2^4 colours? Uh... 16 colours
16:41:12 <AnMaster> ugh
16:41:36 <fizzie> Wasn't there some sort of 386y thing for 3.0 too? I've forgotten most of this stuff.
16:41:37 <ais523> ehird: I'm still nostalgic for 4-bit colour
16:41:45 <ais523> most of my sprite-making was done with it
16:41:47 <ehird> ais523: do you still have the old dna maze?
16:41:52 <ehird> I'd love to try it in this VM
16:41:54 <ais523> ehird: I have every version
16:41:54 <AnMaster> dithering never looks nice in my experience, better to either use more shades or avoid gradients
16:42:03 <ais523> which one do you want?
16:42:15 <ais523> 1 for DOS tty, 2 for DOS tty, 3 for Windows, 4 for DOS graphics?
16:42:20 <ais523> (or 5 for SDL?)
16:42:36 <ehird> ais523: I like the change from 3 to 4 there
16:42:41 <ehird> Well, SDL is boring, I have that on this machine
16:42:43 <ais523> ehird: yes
16:42:55 <ehird> DOS tty is likely to be completely irrelevant to the version of Windows I'm using
16:42:57 <ais523> the changes I made for 4 were backported into 3.2
16:43:01 <ehird> as is DOS graphics
16:43:04 <ais523> which is the "current" version of 3
16:43:18 <ehird> So I suppose 3 or 3.2 is the most reasonable one to try in this context
16:43:29 <ehird> Are the levels the same?
16:43:31 <ais523> yes
16:43:32 <ehird> as the SDL one
16:43:39 <ais523> the gameplay's been identical since version 2
16:43:41 <ehird> did any of the old ones have 100?
16:43:49 <ais523> no, they all use the same set of levels
16:43:56 <ais523> whenever I write a new level it gets backported, pretty much
16:44:04 <ais523> unless it uses a feature I just added and can't be bothered to backport
16:44:19 <ehird> hmm... it'd be nice if there was a slow option in dna maze
16:44:24 <ehird> for non-fingertappingy times
16:44:51 <ais523> that would sort-of defeat the point, most levels would be trivial like that, but it would be nice to practice I suppose
16:46:12 <ais523> can you open zipfiles on your stripped-down windows xp?
16:46:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I never got far in it. Slow for practise would be useful
16:46:58 <ehird> ais523: I didn't strip that out because I like that feature
16:47:03 <ehird> although I wish it worked for non-zips too
16:47:30 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't be to hard to write support for tht
16:47:32 <AnMaster> that*
16:47:47 <ehird> Yes, it would; you'd have to completely mimic the UI and also write an evil black magic Explorer extension.
16:47:47 <fizzie> WP says win3.0 already supports 386s "better"; and there was a Windows/386 2.1 already before that. 3.0 also already had the "386 Enhanced mode". Consequently I'm not so sure that 386 support was the major difference between 3.0/3.1.
16:47:50 <ehird> It opens them as folders.
16:48:08 <ais523> fizzie: ah, may have misremembered
16:48:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I know
16:48:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I just have a vague memory of writing a trivial such in delphi when I was young and didn't know better. Wasn't too hard is my memory of it. And I weren't a good programmer back then.
16:49:12 <ehird> *wasn't
16:49:13 <ehird> Alright then.
16:49:17 <ehird> Ooh, Delphi. :D
16:49:22 <ehird> Corman Lisp is better, clearly.
16:49:44 <ehird> Okay, Java time. Gulp.
16:49:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well I don't know if it is able to compile a dll
16:49:52 <ais523> ehird: http://filebin.ca/ebjwch/dnam3v2-readonly.zip
16:49:58 <ehird> Corman Lisp is totally windowsy.
16:50:00 <AnMaster> corman lisp that is
16:50:00 <ais523> that's binary+data only
16:50:04 <ehird> Full Win32 API access, too.
16:50:11 <ehird> Proper Windows MDI IDE.
16:50:14 <ais523> I can try to dig out the source if you like, but being Windows the source is partly in binary
16:50:20 <AnMaster> ehird, the pointers were a pain in delphi though
16:50:43 <AnMaster> ehird, and windows API has pointers to pointers and lots of structs. At least delphi had windows.h translated already iirc
16:50:48 <ehird> ais523: you do realise you just made the first public release of DNA Maze? :D
16:50:51 <AnMaster> to a delphi unit
16:51:00 <ais523> ehird: heh, probably not
16:51:07 <ais523> people would a) have to find it
16:51:11 <ais523> and b) find a version of Windows it ran on
16:51:13 <ehird> #esoteric is public enough
16:51:14 <ais523> I think it runs on XP
16:51:16 <AnMaster> ais523, sdl version?
16:51:20 <ehird> compatibility is not an issue
16:51:21 <ais523> also, that one probably counts as shareware
16:51:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not the sdl version
16:51:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant "can I get the"
16:51:31 <ehird> it's 3.2, which is Windows + backports from 4
16:51:32 <ehird> keep up
16:51:35 <ais523> given that it only has 92 levels created, and the single-player mode is the only one that works
16:51:38 <ehird> ais523: it's still a release :P
16:51:40 <AnMaster> becuase I seem to have lost my copy
16:51:42 <AnMaster> ais523, ^
16:51:45 <ehird> AnMaster: ah
16:51:45 <AnMaster> seems*
16:51:50 <ais523> ehird: heh, now I can charge people for the other 8 levels!
16:52:06 <ehird> I can give you my patched copy, which lets you compile a debug version for uber-lazy checking out the later levels. :-) (Only if ais523 consents, though.)
16:52:16 <ais523> I'm fine with that
16:52:27 <ehird> AnMaster: zip okay with you? I'm too lazy to open a terminal
16:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird, for?
16:52:49 <ais523> also, I'm pretty sure there was a debug shortcut for checking out later levels already, although I think it might have been a compile-time option, and may have been in a different version
16:52:49 <AnMaster> oh right
16:52:52 <AnMaster> yes
16:53:04 <ais523> the later levels will be pretty much impossible without practice on the earlier ones, though
16:53:10 <AnMaster> ehird, thats okay with me
16:53:14 <ehird> Also, it includes my build system which uses sdl-config like it should :P
16:53:30 <AnMaster> ehird, what did ais523 use? configure + pkg-config?
16:53:36 <ehird> direct Makefile
16:53:41 <ehird> mine's a makefile too, but it calls sdl-config
16:53:44 <ehird> instead of hardcoding -lSDL etc
16:53:50 <AnMaster> but a direct makefile would *include* a call to sdl-config
16:53:52 <AnMaster> oh
16:53:53 <AnMaster> huh
16:53:56 <AnMaster> ais523, why? :)
16:54:03 <ais523> AnMaster: didn't realise it had its own config thing
16:54:06 <ehird> Because he's a lazy bastard and didn't know about sdl-config :-P
16:54:08 <ais523> the docs didn't mention it
16:54:08 <AnMaster> right
16:54:16 <ehird> sdl-config just calls pkg-config iirc
16:54:20 <ais523> and how am I meant to find out, except by reading the documentation?
16:54:33 <ehird> Uploading
16:54:44 <ehird> ais523: can I post it publicly?
16:54:45 <AnMaster> $ pkg-config --libs sdl
16:54:45 <AnMaster> -lSDL -lpthread
16:54:45 <AnMaster> $ pkg-config --libs sdl
16:54:45 <AnMaster> -lSDL -lpthread
16:54:48 <ehird> or /msg
16:54:49 <AnMaster> err copy fail
16:54:57 <AnMaster> $ pkg-config --cflags sdl
16:54:57 <AnMaster> -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -I/usr/include/SDL
16:55:02 <AnMaster> so why the gnu source I wonder
16:55:07 <ais523> ehird: yes so long as you don't advertise it and leave the copyright vague enough that nobody can download it legally
16:55:18 <ehird> ais523: I won't make AnMaster break the law
16:55:25 <ehird> also, that won't deterr anyone except you
16:55:31 <ais523> ehird: well, I've given him permission myself
16:55:32 <AnMaster> ehird, :D
16:55:36 <ehird> *deter
16:55:38 <ehird> Okay fine
16:55:41 <ais523> and yes, I know
16:56:07 <AnMaster> ehird, he wants to sue them later I guess ;P
16:56:10 <ehird> AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/rqschw/dnamaze5_patched.zip. I grant you the right, by the powers invested in me by ais523, to let you download this. If you are not AnMaster, you do not have this permission, and ais523 will be very sad if you download it. VERY SAD.
16:56:17 <ehird> Sorry if the zip includes OS X crap
16:56:21 <ehird> like __MACOSX or .DS_Store
16:56:24 <ehird> To compile:
16:56:27 <ehird> $ make
16:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, is it a zip bomb?
16:56:37 <ehird> if you want the nice debug version, which lets you access later levels without completing previous ones:
16:56:42 <ehird> $ make DEBUG=1
16:56:48 <ais523> AnMaster: open it in a separate directory just in case, I do anyway
16:56:51 <ehird> (creates dnamaze5_debug, no conflict with the other one)
16:56:54 <ehird> AnMaster: dunno
16:56:56 <ais523> also, zips are /normally/ zipbombs, as opposed to tars
16:56:58 <ehird> (and saves scores in ~/.dnamaze5_debug)
16:57:05 <ais523> because otherwise it looks strange in Windows
16:57:06 * AnMaster installs unzip
16:57:15 <ehird> Also, the mouse controls are iffy for the menus. Don't use them.
16:57:18 <ehird> Also, the controls are the arrow keys.
16:57:25 <AnMaster> ehird, also lots of __MACOSX stuff and such there yeah
16:57:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what is "DNA Maze.app.skeleton"
16:57:42 <ehird> The skeleton for the OS X .app.
16:57:45 <AnMaster> aha
16:57:47 <ehird> It won't be generated unless you're on Darwin.
16:57:53 <ehird> (Sorry, non-OS X Darwin users! I hate you.)
16:58:07 <AnMaster> nice build system output, kind of
16:58:19 <ehird> That was totally my doing. :| :P
16:58:27 <ehird> (It was, actually.)
16:58:34 <ais523> ehird: do /I/ have permission to download that patched zip?
16:58:44 <ais523> I think I have all the bits of it already, but it'll save me the trouble of applying them
16:58:55 <ehird> ais523: You required me to seek permission from you before granting any rights or whatever relating to it.
16:59:03 <ehird> ais523: So, give me the permission to grant you permission to download it.
16:59:03 <AnMaster> ais523, ehird: I can't play it. There is no any key here!
16:59:11 <ais523> ehird: permission granted
16:59:26 <AnMaster> also clicking on main screen results in blank green screen
16:59:27 <AnMaster> weird
16:59:37 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what we warned you aobut
16:59:38 <ehird> ais523: I give you the permission to download that zip, and use the subset of its contents that I authored or patched in any way whatsoever, including relicensing it.
16:59:39 <ais523> *about
16:59:44 <ais523> ehird: thanks
16:59:49 <ehird> If possible, I relinquish all copyright to the subset of its contents that I authored.
16:59:51 <AnMaster> ais523, hm?
16:59:54 <AnMaster> where?
17:00:02 <ehird> AnMaster: I told you not to use the mouse menu controls :)
17:00:05 <AnMaster> ah
17:00:06 <AnMaster> right
17:00:18 <ehird> ais523: relink 3.2, please?
17:00:18 <AnMaster> must have missed that line
17:00:24 <ais523> ehird: how?
17:00:29 <ehird> the filebin
17:00:33 <ais523> oh
17:00:36 <ehird> just gimme the link again, it's not in scrollback
17:00:38 <ehird> plz :P
17:00:39 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/ebjwch/dnam3v2-readonly.zip
17:00:50 <ais523> I was about to say "I don't have a Windows linker handy"
17:01:03 <ais523> and was wondering wtf was wrong with the link
17:01:13 <ehird> lol
17:01:34 <ais523> I still have the .obj and .res files, if you want to have a go at relinking it yourself, I suppose
17:01:35 <ehird> why is the directory called readonly?
17:01:42 <ais523> ehird: because it doesn't contain source
17:01:51 <ais523> and therefore is no good for modifying the program
17:01:52 * ehird extracts to C:\dnam3v2, in flagrant violation of Windows naming conventions
17:02:26 <ehird> Nice icon.
17:02:37 <ehird> Yikes, fullscreen attacked.
17:02:38 <ais523> it actually changes depending on scaling
17:02:44 <ais523> ehird: ooh, forgot about that
17:02:44 <ehird> Holy shit, a proper menu!
17:02:48 <ehird> Awesome.
17:02:56 <ehird> what's the native resolution
17:02:58 <ehird> this scaling is fugly
17:03:01 <ais523> 1024x768
17:03:09 <ehird> but that's what I'm on!
17:03:12 <ehird> everything looks scaled
17:03:14 <ais523> that version had rather too much hardcoded, it doesn't work at any other resolution
17:03:18 <AnMaster> <ais523> it actually changes depending on scaling <-- what bit does?
17:03:20 <ais523> you might need to hide the start menu
17:03:22 <ais523> AnMaster: the icon
17:03:37 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean the 16x16 one looks nothing like the 32x32 one?
17:03:40 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
17:03:40 <ehird> dnam won't run anymore... /me kills some stuff
17:03:49 <ehird> And now it runs.
17:03:59 <ehird> ais523: I guess it just looks naturally scaled.
17:04:08 <ais523> could be
17:04:10 <ais523> oh, I think I know why
17:04:13 <ais523> almost everything there is a bitmap
17:04:23 <ais523> with 4-bit colour depth
17:04:25 <ehird> the Help button does nothing, I feel helpless
17:04:31 <ais523> so the aliasing's going to be bad
17:04:35 <ais523> and most of the buttons do nothing
17:04:40 <ais523> so it's just a pretty menu
17:04:45 <ais523> try "new game" followed by "standard game"
17:04:54 <ehird> you really went overboard with the keyboard shortcuts in the menus
17:04:59 <ehird> it looks like a colour bonanza
17:04:59 <ais523> in what way?
17:05:02 <ais523> oh
17:05:17 <ehird> "Colors
17:05:18 <ehird> Less than High Colour
17:05:18 <ehird> →High Colour or better"
17:05:22 <ehird> how crap does it look like on the first setting?!?!
17:05:30 <ehird> *look on
17:05:45 <ehird> wow, an old-style file selection dialog
17:06:00 <ehird> should I save it in C:\dnam3v2 or C:\home\dnam3v2, I wonder
17:06:14 <ehird> heh, it has a Network... button
17:06:28 <ehird> saving DNA Maze save games on a Windows network share, could my day get any better
17:06:29 <ais523> it just uses the default Win3.1 file selection dialog
17:06:34 <AnMaster> ais523 what does circle with two arrows on it mean?
17:06:41 <ais523> AnMaster: reverse direction
17:06:42 <ehird> AnMaster: reverses
17:06:46 <ehird> yeah
17:06:52 <ehird> ais523: Resolve my save game location dilemma! :P
17:07:00 <ais523> if any of your segments go next to it orthogonally or diagonally, you reverse direction on the next step
17:07:02 <AnMaster> ais523, when one touches it?
17:07:07 <ais523> ehird: mine was always alex.dna in the same dir as the directory
17:07:11 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
17:07:16 <ehird> "same dir as the directory"?
17:07:16 <AnMaster> ais523, crashed into the wall for me
17:07:18 <AnMaster> strange
17:07:21 <ais523> um, same dir as the executable
17:07:22 <AnMaster> was in the second level
17:07:32 <ais523> AnMaster: you can crash into it, it's a type of wall
17:07:39 <ais523> it's going into stick-range that activates it
17:07:47 <ais523> nearly every DNA Maze item is much the same
17:07:48 <AnMaster> ais523, stick-range?
17:07:51 <ais523> AnMaster: next to it
17:08:01 <AnMaster> hm okay
17:08:02 <ais523> e.g. A next to T causes them to stick to each other, game over
17:08:03 <ehird> I guess that's reasonable; using \home for all stuff that's mine is unfeasible because of Windows' structure
17:08:15 <AnMaster> ais523, the G in the ! in the second level
17:08:17 <ehird> elliott.dna it is
17:08:23 <AnMaster> how do they differ in behaviour from those A
17:08:28 <AnMaster> or do they behave the same way?
17:08:33 <ais523> AnMaster: A sticks to T, C sticks to G
17:08:38 <ais523> otherwise the four letters have identical behaviour
17:08:42 <ehird> wow, gameplay really is identical
17:08:47 <AnMaster> ais523, sticks to? as in, stops turning?
17:08:49 <ehird> apart from more flickering; dnam's fault or mine?
17:08:52 <ais523> ehird: not quite, the control responsiveness is very slightly different
17:08:56 <ais523> AnMaster: as in, kills you
17:09:04 <ais523> getting stuck to the walls is one of the two death conditions
17:09:07 <ais523> crashing into them is the other
17:09:11 <ehird> 2 player doesn't work :'(
17:09:16 <ais523> but the Cs in your string are in the middle
17:09:18 <AnMaster> ais523, so G can hit an A? and it won't act as a wall?
17:09:20 <ais523> ehird: hasn't since DNA Maze 2
17:09:23 <ehird> nor does points game. bah!
17:09:28 <AnMaster> hm no
17:09:31 <ehird> ais523: what did 2 improve on 1?
17:09:31 <AnMaster> just tried that
17:09:36 <ais523> AnMaster: all letters act as a wall
17:09:39 <ais523> ehird: the save system
17:09:44 <ais523> and the menu navigation
17:09:47 <AnMaster> ais523, then how does sticking work
17:09:49 <ais523> it was password-save before
17:09:51 <ehird> why did 4 go back to dos?
17:09:56 <ais523> AnMaster: when an A goes /next to/ a T, it sticks to it
17:09:56 <AnMaster> ais523, "next to"?
17:09:58 <AnMaster> aha
17:10:01 <ais523> ehird: because windows development was so painful
17:10:14 <ehird> "JAVA + YOU,
17:10:14 <ehird> DOWNLOAD
17:10:14 <ehird> TODAY!"
17:10:14 <ehird> What the fuck are you on about, Oraclesun?
17:10:26 <ehird> Java isn't a fucking end-user product! Stop pretending it is!
17:10:31 <ais523> $ file dnam3v2.obj
17:10:32 <ais523> dnam3v2.obj: 8086 relocatable (Microsoft)
17:10:47 <ehird> impressive
17:11:02 <ais523> $ file dnam3v2.res
17:11:03 <ais523> dnam3v2.res: MSVC .res
17:11:05 <ais523> even more impressive
17:11:30 <ais523> wow, it's so like me to set compile flags for 8086 compatibility
17:12:12 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
17:12:26 <ais523> probably Windows 3.0 compatibility too
17:12:32 <ais523> although I never actually tried to run it on Windows 3.1
17:12:36 <AnMaster> what version of MSVC was used?
17:12:38 <ais523> it wasn't
17:12:41 <ehird> "By installing Java, you will be able to experience the power of Java, brought to you by Sun Microsystems, Inc."
17:12:43 <ais523> it was Borland C++ version 4
17:12:48 <AnMaster> ouch
17:12:49 <ais523> which output in the same format
17:12:55 <AnMaster> ehird, XD
17:13:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Real quote!
17:13:09 <AnMaster> ehird, wth
17:13:36 -!- ehird has set topic: By installing Brainfuck, you will be able to experience the power of Brainfuck, brought to you by http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D Inc..
17:14:52 <pikhq> God. The only end-user product in Java is the runtime environment. ... And that's only "end-user" in the slightest because Java programs don't come with it.
17:15:09 <ehird> It's not even really end-user, it's a bloody virtual machine
17:15:18 <ehird> The only end-user product, MAYBE, is Java Web Start.
17:15:22 <ehird> And even that's invisible 99% of the time.
17:15:37 <pikhq> Yeah...
17:15:48 <ehird> "Place Java icon in system tray"
17:15:48 <ehird> NO!
17:15:50 <pikhq> Otherwise, it's "I don't fucking care, I want the program to work."
17:15:51 <ehird> "Java Quick Starter"
17:15:52 <ehird> FUCK A GOAT!
17:16:21 <pikhq> "The damned program could be written in C, Brainfuck, and COBOL, and I wouldn't care. Just run!"
17:17:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what is java web start?
17:18:06 <ehird> AnMaster: It lets files offer a small .jnlp file that automatically runs in Java Web Start with one click. Java gives a security warning unless the program is signed, then downloads and runs the Java program.
17:18:17 <ehird> It also lets the user assign a shortcut (= stub .exe) to the program.
17:18:24 <ehird> Updates for the program are automatically installed from the web as they come along.
17:18:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, then sdl is end user on linux. Linux programs don't come with SDL bundled usually. Unlike windows programs that use sdl
17:18:37 <ais523> ehird: I was about to explain, but you did it better
17:18:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Except that the OS comes with SDL.\
17:18:46 <ehird> tl;dr You can click a link on a web page, confirm it, and a Java program is installed and pops up and automatically updates.
17:18:55 <pikhq> (exception: LFS)
17:18:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, not installed by default on arch at least
17:19:00 <ehird> It's alright but abused.
17:19:01 <ais523> Windows used to come with Java
17:19:13 <pikhq> Not installed by default, but installed by the package manager.
17:19:14 <ehird> Frink uses it, because it's updated basically every day and updating it by hand would be a drag.
17:19:21 <ehird> Also, it makes installing Java programs actually bearable.
17:19:55 <ehird> Startup item "jusched". Dude, fuck off Java. I can download updates myself without you running all the time.
17:20:20 <ais523> ehird: that sort of thing is actually what I dislike most about Windows
17:20:25 <pikhq> Windows really needs a central package manager...
17:20:27 <ais523> it's the attitude of companies who make Windows software
17:20:35 <ehird> Windows even HAS A SCHEDULED TASK FEATURE.
17:20:37 <pikhq> Even if it is nothing more than an automatic updater.
17:20:47 <ehird> They could just assign a task to run once a month with the same effect.
17:20:48 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you expect, non-trivial windows software from Sun that actually doesn't install lots of unneeded stuff?
17:21:04 <pikhq> ais523: And Windows encourages it.
17:21:07 <ehird> pikhq: updating could be added to add/remove type stuff really easily
17:21:16 <pikhq> ehird: Trivially.
17:21:18 <ehird> when the program registers with add/remove, it specifies a URL
17:21:25 <ehird> Windows polls this URL every now and then with the version number it specifies
17:21:44 <pikhq> Whenever Windows checks for its own updates, presumably.
17:21:45 <ehird> if it redirects to an .exe or .msi, say, windows stores the location of that and notes it as needing updating
17:21:53 <ais523> but how could it use up 100% of your CPU cycles when the program you installed wasn't running then, making the program you installed seem fast in comparison?
17:21:55 <ehird> pikhq: programs could set their own intervals too
17:22:06 <pikhq> Mmm. Fair enough.
17:22:18 <ehird> After polling all the URLs, it'd pop a tray icon notifying you of the updates. It would download them automatically if you told them to. Then you'd just select the ones you want, click go, and tada.
17:22:21 <ehird> Not hard at all.
17:22:31 <pikhq> But. Gah. Windows doesn't have centralised facilities for... Most things.
17:22:48 <AnMaster> ehird, this would feel so unwindowish
17:22:49 <ehird> Oh, and if a URL stopped responding, it'd let the user know that Windows can't check for updates for this program automatically any more, and that they should check the manufacturer's site to upgrade the program so that it can check in future.
17:22:52 <pikhq> It's crazy even compared to the mild insanity that is "ever piece is replacable".
17:23:11 <pikhq> s/ever/every/
17:23:15 <AnMaster> ehird, also OS X doesn't even have add/remove. Granted, for most stuff it is all in one place
17:23:22 <AnMaster> still there are things that are not so
17:23:29 <ehird> OS X applications check for updates in the programs themselves
17:23:43 <ehird> and there's an open source updater framework, Sparkle, that a lot of projects use
17:23:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. But that requires you to run them every now and then
17:23:47 <ehird> so the end result is pretty consistent
17:23:51 <AnMaster> ah that works
17:23:53 <ehird> AnMaster: if you're not running it why does it need to be updated?
17:24:00 <AnMaster> good point
17:24:16 <pikhq> OS X could probably do with it for the more complex programs... Though most of them have add/remove mean "cp/rm", so it's not needed for them.
17:24:56 <ehird> I have AppTrap installed, it removes the caches/data files/configuration files of an .app when I trash it
17:25:01 <ehird> (just prompts me when I move it to the trash)
17:25:09 <ehird> So it's not quite that easy unless you have a program to do it for you, unfortunately
17:25:23 <ehird> Also, making an .app without XCode is way harder than it should be
17:25:28 <pikhq> Eh. At least OS X devs don't have this silly attitude of "Everything the OS does, we can do better!"
17:25:38 <ehird> Yeah.
17:26:07 <ehird> To be fair to Windows, I am rather pleased with my Empty Recycle Bin script! :P
17:26:10 <pikhq> (why do Windows devs write their own widgets, with a custom appearance, anyways?)
17:26:34 <ehird> Because it's easy, because Windows has never really had a consistent UI in third-party applications, and because Windows is the most popular desktop OS.
17:26:52 <AnMaster> ehird, how does apptrap know which files come from which program?
17:27:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Because the paths include the name of the app.
17:27:12 <ehird> Or the identifier (reverse DNS).
17:27:13 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, apps are that well behaved?
17:27:19 <ehird> Almost all OS X apps are.
17:27:25 <AnMaster> huh
17:27:31 <ehird> If it's in an .app, it probably doesn't write ~/.foo or whatever.
17:27:51 <ehird> Exceptions are things like Inkscape, but that's just a shell application that starts X11 if it isn't already started, and runs inkscape.
17:28:12 <AnMaster> ehird, but isn't gtk ported to native these days?
17:28:36 <ehird> These days, it uses Quartz. So it uses native drawing, and you can even set it to use some native widgets, but it fucks up badly.
17:28:48 <ehird> GTK simply isn't flexible enough to be semi-native on OS X like Qt is.
17:29:11 <pikhq> The best GTK does is "use widgets that appear like OS X. If you squint."
17:29:18 <ehird> No, it uses native OS X widgets
17:29:20 <ehird> It just does all its own layout
17:29:25 <ehird> And doesn't support most widgets for it
17:29:30 <ehird> And draws its own toolbars
17:29:31 <ehird> And etc
17:29:37 * ehird clickclick "Swing Interface with standard libraries"
17:29:40 <ehird> Come to me, Frink! Come to me!
17:29:42 <pikhq> Dear. That's awful.
17:31:09 <AnMaster> swing looks horrible
17:31:13 <AnMaster> iirc
17:31:17 <ehird> No.
17:31:21 <AnMaster> the other one looks slightly better
17:31:23 <ehird> Nowadays, Swing can and does use native widgets.
17:31:24 <AnMaster> forgot the name of it
17:31:37 <ehird> AWT used native widgets, but is limited and deprecated.
17:31:42 <ehird> Swing these days is pretty darn good.
17:31:49 <ehird> Especially on Windows.
17:31:50 <AnMaster> ehird, swing apps look out of place on linux IME
17:31:53 <AnMaster> even nowdays
17:31:57 <ehird> On Linux it's the font rendering that does it.
17:31:58 <ais523> AnMaster: I use swing GTK, it's mostly correct
17:32:04 <ehird> Also, they have to use native look and feel
17:32:08 <ehird> Some apps set it differently and whatnot
17:32:11 <ais523> although it horribly screws up the antialiasing on tab labels
17:32:18 <ais523> horrifically, it's like it's using pro-aliasing or something
17:32:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> Also, they have to use native look and feel <ehird> Some apps set it differently and whatnot <-- a missing not in the first one?
17:32:39 <ehird> No.
17:32:53 <ehird> A-downloadin' we go, a-downloadin' we go
17:32:55 <AnMaster> then that didn't make sense
17:33:00 <ehird> A-download download download download downloadin' we go
17:33:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes it did.
17:33:17 <ehird> YAY FRINK
17:33:26 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? 1) must be native 2) some apps set it non-native
17:33:31 <AnMaster> right
17:34:49 <ehird> I wish I could set Frink into single-line mode by default, but eh.
17:35:12 * ehird enables Java Quick Starter. Java startup is just too slow!
17:35:40 <ehird> Okay, that didn't actually speed it up.
17:36:09 <pikhq> All that does is make the DLLs be resident...
17:36:10 <AnMaster> ehird, if it did, it wouldn't be called quick starter, would it?
17:36:36 <pikhq> Much of Java's startup is actual execution time.
17:36:43 <ehird> I wonder if you can tell Java Web Start not to show the downloading thingy when starting an app
17:36:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, couldn't you pre-JIT it and then cache that
17:36:53 <AnMaster> in theory I mean
17:37:02 <ehird> -silent or -Xnosplash, it seems.
17:37:04 <AnMaster> iirc .NET does something like that
17:37:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: Theoretically.
17:37:12 <ais523> pre-JIT is such a ridiculous concept
17:37:16 <ais523> don't you mean "compile"?
17:37:21 <AnMaster> ais523, well I think it is called AOT
17:37:24 <AnMaster> "ahead of time"
17:37:27 <AnMaster> for mono at least
17:37:45 <ehird> WTF, java puts its stuff in %WINDIR%\system32?
17:37:47 <pikhq> ais523: Because it might get re-compiled during execution?
17:37:49 <AnMaster> not sure what windows .NET calls it. remember some service called ".NET Optimiser"
17:37:49 <ehird> Jeez Java.
17:37:51 <AnMaster> or such
17:37:56 <AnMaster> and what pikhq said
17:38:19 <AnMaster> it might compile an optimised version during runtime as well I guess
17:38:57 <ais523> ehird: somehow I'm not surprised
17:40:18 <ehird> Oh well, I'll deal with the noisy startup of Java Web Start to avoid updating Frink all the time
17:40:30 <Asztal> AnMaster: NGEN, native image generator?
17:40:42 <ehird> Last few updates: 2009-12-16, 2010-01-04, 2010-01-05, 2010-01-06
17:40:52 <ehird> I can't keep up with that sort of pace.
17:40:58 <AnMaster> Asztal, sounds like it. But there was some service for it, doing it for system ones in the background
17:41:23 <ehird> (Before that: 2009-10-02, 2009-10-04, 2009-10-15, 2009-10-16, 2009-11-16)
17:42:19 <AnMaster> ehird, is there any sort of changelog available
17:42:29 <AnMaster> I'm curious to how large the changes may be
17:42:33 <AnMaster> as to*
17:42:33 <ehird> http://futureboy.us/frinkdocs/whatsnew.html
17:44:14 <AnMaster> ehird, " * Updated sanity checks for the year 2010. "
17:44:18 <AnMaster> I wonder what that meant
17:44:31 <ehird> Probably part of some test to check the maths stuff is working okay
17:44:37 <ehird> that didn't handle 2010 or above
17:44:46 <AnMaster> also is frink available on iphone? seems it is on android
17:44:49 <ehird> Something like that, anyway. Ask him :P
17:44:54 <ehird> AnMaster: No Java on iPhone, so no.
17:44:59 <ehird> But you can use the web version.
17:45:11 <ehird> With some iPhone-specific CSS the web version would be fine for quick calculations.
17:45:12 <AnMaster> ehird, which isn't coded in java?
17:45:23 <ehird> It's coded in Frink Server Pages.
17:45:27 <ehird> i.e. HTML with embedded Frink.
17:45:28 <AnMaster> hah
17:45:30 <ehird> The Frink is executed server-side.
17:45:36 <AnMaster> ehird, cgi?
17:45:48 <pikhq> ... No, that's not CGI.
17:45:52 <ehird> http://futureboy.us/frinkdocs/fspdocs.html
17:45:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, I didn't say that
17:45:57 <pikhq> That's a simple Apach module.
17:46:01 <AnMaster> I meant how does frink run
17:46:02 <ehird> Java Servlets
17:46:07 <AnMaster> ah
17:46:14 <ehird> Java servlets are rubbish, but eh
17:46:19 <ehird> A CGI in Java would be dog slow
17:46:36 <pikhq> Eh, I've seen worse uses of it.
17:46:36 <ehird> I wonder if there's a Java thingy that lets you hook into program exit, so that the VM keeps running, doing nothing, until you run the program again, at which point it runs main() again.
17:46:38 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed, that was the conclusion I came to
17:46:54 <ehird> As long as there aren't evil static globals it modifies or whatever, that should avoid JVM overhead.
17:46:59 <ehird> Best for graphical programs, probably.
17:47:41 <ehird> Seems like setting up Frink Server Pages isn't too difficult.
17:47:41 <AnMaster> ehird, by the way, what would calling main() from an atexit() callback do in C...
17:47:41 <soupdragon> dude that frink thing is cool
17:47:48 <AnMaster> just wondering what sort of hell that would cause
17:47:50 <AnMaster> cause*
17:48:00 <ehird> Open its web.xml, change fsp-root, drop the .war in your Java Servlet directory, tada.
17:48:01 <ehird> soupdragon: it is!
17:48:07 <ehird> It can even do regexps, graphics, ...
17:48:17 <ehird> AnMaster: TIAS
17:48:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure I dare. I think it is very very likely undefined behaviour
17:48:40 <ehird> "The following complete FSP page demonstrates rendering a black circle. Perhaps you can come up with something more clever."
17:48:43 <ehird> AnMaster: TIAS!
17:50:30 <AnMaster> ehird, okay it seems calling exit() inside atexit() is forbidden at least
17:50:31 <AnMaster> well
17:50:32 <AnMaster> UD
17:50:39 <ehird> See what gcc does with -O0
17:50:45 <AnMaster> "POSIX.1-2001 says that the result of calling exit(3) more than once (i.e., calling exit(3) within a function registered using atexit(3)) is undefined."
17:50:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm reading man page first
17:50:55 <ehird> Boooooooooring
17:51:21 <ehird> Cool, Frink has some algebraic solving stuff since 2009-10-04.
17:51:32 <AnMaster> also longjmp in atexit seems forbidden
17:51:41 * ehird `use solvingTransformations.frink`
17:52:39 <ehird> and the loooooooong wait begins as it seemingly downloads all the libraries
17:52:46 <ehird> think it does that the first time you use a library
17:53:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's undefined behavior.
17:55:12 <pikhq> And it's only undefined if you longjmp to terminate the function in atexit.
17:55:35 <pikhq> longjmp'ing *to* the function is perfectly fine.
17:55:42 <ehird> evil yet impossible exploit idea:
17:55:45 <ehird> *evil yet
17:55:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah right
17:56:06 <ehird> kill -9 puts an instruction in the program's code that immediately exits (or is that just the OOM killer?)
17:56:15 <ehird> So, modify the processor's microcode so that this instruction is actually a nop
17:56:20 <ehird> Voila! Immortal program.
17:56:41 <ehird> Admittedly, all other programs are immortal too, but...
17:57:05 <AnMaster> ehird, does it actually do it that way?
17:57:10 <AnMaster> kill -9 I mean
17:57:11 <ehird> The OOM killer does.
17:57:14 <ehird> Maybe kill -9 doesn't.
17:57:32 <AnMaster> ehird, why would the OOM killer do that. Surely there are easier ways to do it
17:57:35 <pikhq> kill -9 doesn't.
17:57:39 <fizzie> I really doubt either one of the killers bother to modify code; care to look up some references?
17:57:51 <pikhq> The kernel just deletes the process.
17:58:04 <ehird> fizzie: I think you quoted the code that did that.
17:58:14 <ehird> I know it sets the process to have, like, infinite priority
17:58:23 <ehird> And I seem to recall that's so it executes its suicide immediately
17:58:49 <ehird> http://futureboy.us/fsp/solve.fsp ;; The space background, it is verily 90s.
17:58:50 <pikhq> The OOM killer just sends SIGKILL.
17:59:31 <fizzie> Hm. There was *something* curious there, related to the scheduling; I do remember peeking at the code.
17:59:31 <ehird> Hmph. Am I hallucinating? Surely not.
18:01:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it makes much more sense for the kernel to just free the memory pages and then delete the process structure
18:01:52 <AnMaster> and such
18:01:53 <ehird> Yes, it does.
18:01:57 <ehird> But it didn't just do that.
18:02:25 <AnMaster> ehird, and if it was for SMP, then modifying the code ahead of the current position is unreliable due to cache.
18:02:28 <ehird> Stupid thing about Java: All objects are mutexes.
18:02:32 <ehird> All objects *waste memory* on being mutexes.
18:02:47 <soupdragon> it's basically an open source version of mathematica?
18:03:06 <ehird> soupdragon: it's more of a calculator and a data cruncher than a symbolic environment
18:03:19 <ehird> for example, I don't think Mathematica does its values-have-units-built-in thing
18:03:25 <soupdragon> okay
18:03:30 <ehird> and it doesn't really have _that_ strong algebraic/etc capabilities
18:03:42 <ehird> also, mathematica doesn't really do web scraping/regexps/etc
18:03:49 <ehird> also, um, frink's not open source
18:03:51 <ehird> (but it is free)
18:03:54 <soupdragon> oh
18:04:01 <fizzie> It *does* send sigkill, though it does that too a bit specially; normally you can't send a sigkill to a process with CAP_SYS_RAW_IO (for safety); the OOM killer goes around those restrictions. After making sure that signal is pending, it also does that priority trick. Though it probably won't actually *execute* the task, more like it's just done so that it is scheduled early enough.
18:04:08 <fizzie> * We give our sacrificial lamb high priority and access to
18:04:09 <fizzie> * all the memory it needs. That way it should be able to
18:04:09 <fizzie> * exit() and clear out its resources quickly...
18:04:09 <fizzie> */
18:04:09 <fizzie> p->rt.time_slice = HZ;
18:04:09 <fizzie> set_tsk_thread_flag(p, TIF_MEMDIE);
18:04:17 <ehird> see, "exit() and clear out ..."
18:04:24 <ehird> so it could potentially exit I guess?
18:04:42 <fizzie> It does force_sig(SIGKILL, p); -- I don't think it's possible the process can do anything after that point.
18:04:56 <fizzie> But I'm not completely sure, and finding that out from the sources is too much work.
18:04:58 <ehird> then what is "exit() and clear out its resources" referring to
18:05:37 <fizzie> It might be referring to the clearing-out of resources that the kernel does, just in a bit misleading manner.
18:05:49 <fizzie> Go and find out if interested enough; have to be away now for a while.
18:06:49 <pikhq> That's exit() in the kernel.
18:06:59 <ehird> ah
18:07:06 <pikhq> Which only gets done when the process is scheduled to run.
18:08:25 <ehird> soupdragon: frink is actually symbolic at its core though
18:08:36 -!- MizardX has quit ("zzz").
18:08:50 <ehird> and you can add symbolic transformations / go into symbolic mode (basically doesn't warn about undefined variables and doesn't barf because of them when sometimes it would)
18:21:26 <ehird> What's this? Java leaks memory? No!
18:21:43 <ehird> factor[big] in Frink then everything after is sloow and the UI just sort of gives up.
18:21:45 <ehird> God damn you, Sun.
18:31:40 <pikhq> What, you expect Sun to write memory-efficient code?
18:32:18 <ehird> It's annoying because the JVM is one of the most advanced virtual machines in existence: JIT, advanced generational garbage collector, ...
18:32:28 <ehird> But fuck, it sucks in practice; especially for GUI applications.
18:33:21 <Ilari> In Java, all objects are mutexes and condition variables. :-)
18:33:29 <ehird> Condition variables?
18:33:29 <pikhq> Part of that's the implementation, part of that's just, well... Java being Java.
18:33:47 <Ilari> ehird: wait(), notify() and notifyAll().
18:33:56 <ehird> Java is an excellent virtual machine with a crappy GUI toolkit and a decidedly mediocre language.
18:34:11 <pikhq> Yeah, that sums it up.
18:34:27 * ehird installs Corman Lisp
18:34:30 <ehird> It's got what plants crave!
18:34:36 <ehird> (At this point, Ilari goes on about plant nutrition.)
18:34:47 <ehird> It is your destiny.
18:37:17 <Ilari> Okay... Plants don't need that much, pretty much only some pretty simple ions (mainly N, P and K plus small amounts of lots of other elemential ions), plus water and light. :->
18:37:37 <pikhq> http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/bf.asm.txt This... Is impressive.
18:37:38 <ehird> And the karmic universal balance is aligned once more!
18:37:56 <soupdragon> pikhq why??
18:38:05 <pikhq> soupdragon: 166 bytes.
18:38:07 <soupdragon> pikhq it looks very very well written
18:38:40 <ehird> Same guy who wrote the shortest Linux ELF file.
18:38:50 <pikhq> Yeah.
18:39:11 <pikhq> His assembly stuff is rather impressive. And a fun read.
18:39:30 <Ilari> Linux 2.6 ELF checking is more strict than Linux 2.4 ELF checking (which AFAIK increases the minimum size).
18:40:56 <pikhq> "The program uses the technique of loading to absolute address zero, which permits a number of tricks that further reduce code size. I have not used this technique myself, because sadly some versions of Linux do not permit executables to load to address zero."
18:41:14 <pikhq> The program he's talking about there is the only one I've not been able to run on 2.6.
18:41:22 <pikhq> (58 byte "Hello, world!")
18:41:46 <Ilari> Linux still contains a.out support. And a.out binaries can have load base of either 0 or 4096.
18:42:17 <pikhq> But, he's writing ELF files.
18:43:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> But fuck, it sucks in practice; especially for GUI applications. <-- go improve it. It's open source.
18:43:30 <ehird> Yeah, like Oracle are gonna accept patches.
18:43:45 <ehird> I feel absolutely no obligation to contribute to a corporate product that is the source of much profit.
18:43:48 <ehird> (Yes, I know you were probably joking.)
18:44:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I was about to whoosh you there
18:45:54 <Ilari> And Java lacks method pointers (reflection is bit too verbose to be a replacement).
18:51:15 <ais523> Ilari: not any more
18:51:21 <pikhq> ... asmutils has a 532 byte httpd. That's impressive.
18:51:22 <ais523> the next version has method pointers, apparently
18:51:22 <ehird> Ilari: new Function3<int,string,string>() {{ public string call(int x, string y) { return obj.someMethod(x, y); } }}
18:51:22 <ehird> where public class Function3<T,S,R> { public R call(T x, S y); }
18:51:22 <ehird> also, obj has to be declared final. What's that? You wanted something not verbose? Oh.
18:51:36 <AnMaster> and you could use m4 for older versions to emulate it I guess XD
18:52:28 <ehird> But seriously, you could just do `MethodPtr3<int,string,string> = MethodPtr.for(obj, "ultraPoop");` or whatever. Shouldn't be too hard to make.
18:52:39 <ehird> Although there'd always be an upper bound on the argument count.
18:52:46 <Ilari> Had to recently write Java code that used Thread.stop() (its deprecated, look up why).
18:52:48 <ais523> syntax for a method pointer is to change the . to #
18:52:55 <ais523> that's pretty nonverbose
18:53:00 <ais523> e.g. Thread#stop
18:54:01 <ehird> At least Java is mediocre rather than actively terrible.
18:55:18 <Ilari> Good side is that with Java, one can't do anything too crazy.
18:55:33 <ehird> You can with reflection.
18:55:46 <ehird> I don't buy into that, anyway; crazy stuff isn't the only type of bad code.
18:56:05 <ehird> The good side is that with Java, you don't have to deal with pointers or memory allocation.
18:56:16 <ehird> Those are easy to mess up badly, rather than deliberate tricks.
18:57:18 <pikhq> The good side with Java is that it is merely a bit too complex and a bit too verbose. Rather than actively being painful to use.
18:58:45 <ehird> So far, ...nothing at all has broken in my minimalist Windows XP.
18:58:49 <Ilari> Well, except by writing bytecode and then loading it, but not many coders have any idea about how to do that.
18:58:52 <ehird> Windows really does have an awful lot of useless crap in it.
18:59:02 <ehird> Ilari: If you do that you can modify finals.
18:59:08 <ehird> Even though the compiler unsafely optimises away access to them.
18:59:14 <ehird> Violate generic safety...
18:59:15 <pikhq> ehird: Absolutely nothing?
18:59:17 <pikhq> Huh.
18:59:24 <ehird> Steal your mother's life savings...
18:59:27 <ehird> Kill your mother...
18:59:36 <ehird> Kill the entire population of Mars...
18:59:39 <pikhq> So, Windows XP is actually a 100-some-meg OS with a lot of needless bloat.
18:59:42 <ehird> " " " " " Earth...
18:59:50 <ehird> pikhq: 1 gig OS, actually. But a 100 meg install CD.
18:59:54 <ehird> Wait.
18:59:56 <pikhq> Oh, okay.
19:00:00 <ehird> That 1 gig figure included my 700 meg pagefile.
19:00:01 <ehird> XD
19:00:07 <pikhq> Ah.
19:00:21 <ais523> talk about bloat
19:00:23 <pikhq> 300 megs is actually reasonable for a fairly barebones OS.
19:00:23 <ehird> \WINDOWS is 359 megs
19:00:25 <pikhq> Such as Windows.
19:00:28 <ehird> (363 megs on disk)
19:00:31 <ehird> ais523: pagefile = swapfile :P
19:00:36 <ais523> I know
19:00:46 <ehird> ais523: So, I didn't strip it down to the hueg 1 gig.
19:00:54 <ehird> I stripped Windows down to ~360 megs.
19:01:05 <ehird> Plus the default \Program Files and user account stuff, but that's barely anything.
19:01:12 <pikhq> Which is about what a similarly able Linux distro would be at...
19:01:23 <ehird> Ubuntu is 2 gigs :P
19:01:31 <pikhq> I said similarly able.
19:01:38 <pikhq> Ubuntu is bloat-tastic. ;)
19:02:38 <ehird> That implies that Ubuntu is ~5.7x more able than my minimalist Windows XP :P
19:03:01 <ehird> I should get an antivirus on this thing.
19:03:50 <ais523> ehird: MSAV?
19:03:59 <ais523> really, it should be a really really old DOS antivirus
19:04:08 <ais523> that prevents .exe files being modified by storing checksums
19:04:11 <ehird> I don't think that would protect against Windows viruses.
19:04:15 <ais523> and checking against the sum whenever you try to run one
19:04:34 <ais523> that's almost perfect at antivirusing; issue is, it doesn't protect against other forms of malware, like worms
19:04:54 <ais523> I remember when viruses were actually viruses...
19:05:13 <ehird> anyone know how easy it is to rename a user account directory in windows?
19:05:16 <ehird> sick of being Owner
19:05:32 <ais523> create a new account, copy the files should almost certainly be safe
19:05:34 <ehird> Yay Corman Lisp!
19:05:36 <Ilari> Hmm... After I reboot this computer (someday) I'll probably try to get Protocol 41 working... :-)
19:06:41 <ehird> "reboot this computer (someday)"
19:06:49 <ehird> Your system must be pretty stable.
19:07:45 <Ilari> BTW: It lacks UPS. :-/
19:08:12 <ehird> Do you do your work on a ramdisk because your computer never crrashes? :-)
19:08:15 <ehird> *crashes
19:08:57 <Ilari> No (except for having lots of stuff open, with few text files storing what's open).
19:09:17 <Ilari> And no memory for RAM disk.
19:09:29 <ehird> Just make ramvi
19:09:33 <ehird> It's a vi clone without saving!
19:11:50 * ehird installs WinHugs for the nostalgia
19:12:34 <ehird> not that I've ever used it, but...
19:14:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:14:44 <ehird> oerjan! And I was just installing WinHugs.
19:14:55 <oerjan> O_o
19:14:58 <ehird> You know, because you use Windows. And Hugs. And are consequently scientifically classed as a dinosaur.
19:15:04 <ehird> Therefore this is relevant to you.
19:15:29 * oerjan tears ehird into pieces with his giant jaws
19:15:39 <oerjan> *yummy*
19:15:39 <ehird> No, you are a wimpy dinosaur with no powers.
19:15:40 <ehird> NO
19:15:41 <ehird> POWERS
19:15:44 <ehird> ...
19:15:45 <oerjan> WAAAAHH
19:15:47 <ehird> WHATSOEVER
19:15:52 <ehird> oerjan: but we love you :<
19:16:05 <oerjan> next you'll tell me i'm purple
19:16:32 <ehird> oerjan: I was going to wait until you were older to tell you that.
19:16:37 <oerjan> (not that i've ever actually _watched_ barney, mind you, i've just heard rumors)
19:16:52 <ehird> Sorry for videoing you for all those years WITHOUT YOU KNOWING
19:17:03 <ehird> But you'll never get the money
19:17:06 <ehird> Never! NEVER!
19:17:07 <oerjan> <_< >_>
19:17:57 <oerjan> we'll see how fun it will be to video a broke dinosaur
19:18:52 <ehird> I stopped taping you when you turned into a sour bastard that nobody likes.
19:18:56 <ehird> Oops, did I say that out aloud?
19:19:19 <ehird> "Heap size: 7 Mb"
19:19:32 <ehird> 7 megs, almost enough for a haskell hello world
19:23:02 <Ilari> Official short name for Protocol 41: IPv6. And it appears in IPv6 address space as 2002/16.
19:25:50 <Ilari> Next 32 bits of address determine the IPv4 the address to send the packets to.
19:28:31 <Ilari> And those addresses are /48's, 65536 networks of up to 16Ei hosts. :-)
19:30:19 <ehird> Really cool thing about Frink graphics: Resizing the graphics window rerenders the whole thing. So text gets re-rendered, etc.
19:30:24 <ehird> So there's no "scaling".
19:36:17 <pikhq> ehird: What's the memory usage on that minimal XP install look like?
19:36:31 <ehird> With or without programs running?
19:36:39 <ehird> Presumably without.
19:36:40 <pikhq> Eh... Sure.
19:38:02 <ehird> physical memory in "K"
19:38:11 <ehird> well
19:38:19 <ehird> i'll chop off the last three digits
19:38:22 <ehird> to get approx. megs
19:38:24 <ehird> total 523
19:38:26 <ehird> avail 404
19:38:27 <ehird> cache 338
19:38:33 <pikhq> Not bad.
19:38:42 <ehird> So 119 megs used
19:38:49 <ehird> what is commit charge, I wonder?
19:39:12 <ehird> Also, 3 megs of that is the virtualbox service, so that obviously doesn't count :-P
19:40:13 <ehird> Anyway, it runs IE, VirtualBox additions, Opera, Java, Frink, Corman Lisp and WinHugs (and thus Hugs) so far.
19:41:44 <ehird> ClearType works if you're into that.
19:42:13 <ehird> (It detects whether or not you are into that and does not work if you are not.)
19:42:15 <ehird> (True fact.)
19:43:47 <oerjan> those pesky true facts, always being uppity against the false ones
19:44:03 <ehird> It's ders criminasion.
19:44:40 * ehird wonders what's the easiest way to get Servlets serving locally on Windows to play with Frink Server Pages.
19:44:54 <ehird> Tomcat? Isn't that meant to be ridiculously complicated? GlassFish?
19:45:46 <pikhq> Tomcat is Apache in Java.
19:45:51 <pikhq> (ugh)
19:45:56 <ehird> No, not really.
19:46:03 <ehird> It's an HTTP server + Servlet container + JSP thingy.
19:46:17 <ehird> It just happens to be an Apache project, and thus inherit the crazy.
19:46:23 <pikhq> Ah.
19:46:31 <ehird> Incidentally, if anyone wants a Compose key under Windows: http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/b/2009/updates/
19:47:24 <ehird> It actually converts the X11 Compose key file format to an AutoHotkey_L script.
19:47:45 <fizzie> Ilari: Err. 2002::/16 is the prefix for 6to4 addresses, true; but "protocol 41" -- directly putting IPv6 packets inside IPv4 packets with protocol number set to 41 -- is used also by all the other tunnel brokers, too, with addresses allocated in other routable blocks.
19:49:22 <ehird> http://tjws.sourceforge.net/
19:49:22 <ehird> "European quality software made in USA"
19:49:22 <ehird> wat
19:49:31 <ehird> Germans: famous for good cars and software!
19:49:51 <ehird> Oh, jetty. Jetty rings a bell.
19:53:31 <ehird> So, Jetty or TJWS it is.
19:55:03 <fizzie> ehird: JBoss. Not just the crazy of Tomcat; it is also Enterprise.
19:55:13 <ehird> I CAN HARDLY WAIT
19:55:51 <ehird> A Haskell implementation in Java would be a fun engineering problem. Yes, I know of the outdated GHC backend, but that's so boring.
19:56:21 <soupdragon> I use java to implement a lazy language
19:56:30 <soupdragon> I tried to prove a point about TCO with it, but tehy did not listen
19:56:41 <ehird> Trampolines yo
19:56:54 <soupdragon> yes exactly
19:57:13 <ehird> Makes a Haskell, Java, Haskell callstack difficult though.
19:57:26 <ehird> Well.
19:57:27 <soupdragon> hmm
19:57:28 <ehird> Not really, actually.
19:57:38 <soupdragon> I didn't consider that, but it's certainly a tricky problem
19:57:43 <ehird> not really
19:57:54 <ehird> Java code, when it wants to use e.g. a Haskell callback, uses the trampoline mechanism itself
19:58:07 <ehird> by starting a new trampoline
19:58:09 <ehird> So you get:
19:58:17 <ehird> Trampoline, Haskell, Java, Trampoline, Haskell
19:58:25 <ehird> Yes, if you nest this enough the stack will blow
19:58:33 <ehird> but it'd be very difficult to write code gnarly enough to make THAT happen
19:58:35 <soupdragon> I think you can mabye use a simple tramp
19:58:38 <soupdragon> single*
19:58:48 <ehird> soupdragon: yes, but then you have to split the java method in two
19:58:51 <ehird> as opposed to just doing
19:58:56 <soupdragon> hmm
19:58:58 <ehird> callHaskell(someHaskellFunc, someJavaArgs)
19:59:07 <ehird> since the stack overflow problem is very minor, I'd go for convenience
19:59:30 <ehird> soupdragon: especially as you can wrap callHaskell() in a java class or whatever, so java APIs that aren't yours can call into haskell code
19:59:32 <ehird> (without knowing)
19:59:55 <ehird> one major issue is designing the embedding of java into haskell though, I tried that once for a laugh and it was quite a pain
20:00:07 <ehird> (assuming you want static safety and don't want to add actual OOP features to haskell)
20:00:12 <ehird> involves a _lot_ of typeclasses
20:09:35 -!- somebody_ has joined.
20:09:45 -!- somebody_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:10:00 -!- soupdragon has quit (Nick collision from services.).
20:10:17 -!- soupdragon has joined.
20:11:20 <ehird> Heh, apparently TJWS is based on thttpd.
20:11:43 <ehird> No ,wait.
20:11:45 <ehird> *No, wait.
20:11:50 <ehird> Probably Acme.Serve.
20:11:58 <ehird> (the other acme.com webserver; this one's Java)
20:20:32 -!- Azstal has joined.
20:21:28 <ehird> For those who haven't seen it yet: http://dd-sh.intercal.org.uk/web-server/
20:27:34 <ehird> ouch, a .bat cgi
20:27:39 <ehird> ais523: sounds like the kind of thing you'd do
20:28:04 <ais523> ehird: well, it is by the maintainer of CLC-INTERCAL
20:28:11 <ehird> no
20:28:14 <ehird> I saw a .bat cgi elsewhere
20:28:18 <ais523> oh
20:28:31 <ais523> no, I'm not quite that crazy, .bat is rubbish at parsing
20:29:01 <ehird> admittedly it was just a demonstration, and windows doesn't really have any alternatives
20:29:07 <ehird> all it did was dir /b
20:29:12 <ehird> plus surrounding html/headers
20:32:13 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:33:38 <pikhq> 14:33 [localhost] -!- #haskell-blah: No such channel
20:33:52 <pikhq> Why the hell is irssi trying to send messages to localhost for that channel?
20:33:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, localhost? using a bouncer?
20:34:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, I just have bitlbee on localhost.
20:34:31 <ehird> Fascism: Awesome, or AWESOME?
20:34:42 <ehird> Answer: AWESOME!!!!!!
20:34:54 <AnMaster> horrible
20:35:02 <ehird> YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON
20:35:05 <ehird> Now you will die.
20:35:12 <AnMaster> hah
20:38:04 <ehird> Now we will sing the fascism song!
20:38:07 <ehird> Ding, dong, AnMaster's dead
20:38:12 <ehird> We stabbed the bastard in the head
20:38:17 <ehird> Ding, dong, freedom is dead
20:38:25 <ehird> We raped that bastard till it... was... um... dead?
20:38:27 <AnMaster> alas no, I fooled you there
20:38:31 <ehird> FASCISM
20:38:31 <ehird> Good for everything except rhyming
20:38:46 <AnMaster> my dopplerganger(!)
20:38:54 <soupdragon> schism
20:38:55 <oerjan> fascism, rhymes with ass-ism
20:38:57 <ehird> That isn't a word.
20:39:03 * AnMaster leaves in a hurry
20:39:05 <ehird> Also, you can say "penis".
20:39:07 <soupdragon> prison
20:39:12 <ehird> You don't have to say "dopplerganger".
20:39:52 <oerjan> a dopplerganger would be someone moving away at nearly the speed of light, right
20:40:35 <ais523> hmm, seems localhost is online at,
20:40:36 <ais523> *atm
20:40:41 <ehird> wat
20:40:49 <ais523> ehird: I just did a /whois
20:40:55 <ais523> deliberate misinterpretation ftw!
20:41:02 <ehird> aisMaster
20:45:55 <augur> aisMaster is the bastard child of AnMaster and ais523
20:46:07 <ehird> congratulations, you got the joke
20:46:14 <ais523> augur: wouldn't happen, we're both the same gender
20:46:21 <augur> ais523: ass babies
20:46:24 <ehird> ais523: this is set in the future
20:46:28 <ais523> hmm, what's something that's the opposite of a whoosh but still a similar level of stupidity?
20:46:29 <augur> indeed
20:46:29 <ehird> where anything is possible
20:46:44 <ehird> ais523: "Thanks, Captain Obvious!"
20:46:50 <ais523> ah, maybe
20:46:56 <ais523> well, whatever it is, I apply it to Augur
20:47:00 <ehird> *augur
20:47:04 <ehird> or should I say
20:47:09 <ehird> Ais523: *augur
20:47:20 <augur> ehird
20:47:21 <augur> ehird
20:47:21 <augur> ehird
20:47:23 <augur> :|
20:47:26 <ais523> amazingly, that was a typo somehow
20:47:32 <ehird> /kline augur
20:47:36 <oerjan> Captain Obvious, he tells obvious things
20:47:39 <augur> watsa kline
20:48:09 <oerjan> /kline bottle
20:48:29 <augur> 8D
20:48:36 <augur> kaluza-/kline theory
20:48:55 <oerjan> eine /kline nachtmusik
20:53:30 <ehird> *SOUNDS
20:53:34 <ehird> with a silent /
20:57:12 <oerjan> what do you mean silent? it is clearly a click sound borrowed from !Xóõ
20:57:59 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:00:56 <ehird> the LWJS author can't spell properly but jetty is huge if you go for 6 and sparse if you go for 7
21:00:56 <ehird> hmmm
21:01:29 <ehird> lwjs works as a windows service though if you set it up yourself, so does jetty 6 but it's just way too big
21:01:32 <ehird> jetty 7 doesn't though
21:06:21 <ehird> *tjws
21:07:53 <augur> oerjan
21:07:55 <augur> i just realized
21:08:03 <ehird> "I'm gay"
21:08:09 <soupdragon> 3 simple words, I am gay
21:08:09 <augur> that every /kline we did
21:08:18 <augur> was the exact same german word
21:08:32 <augur> well maybe not for ein kleine nachtmusik actually
21:08:33 <augur> but
21:08:33 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:08:35 <ehird> even klein bottle...?
21:08:49 <augur> klein bottles are named after a dude
21:08:52 <augur> same last name
21:11:52 <oerjan> how gross
21:11:56 <oerjan> </duck>
21:12:43 * augur puts my klein bottle in oerjans klein bottle
21:13:34 * pikhq wonders how one puts anything into a klein bottle
21:13:49 <augur> through the open end, duh
21:14:02 <pikhq> That's not inside.
21:14:07 <augur> :X
21:14:11 <pikhq> It's a zero-volume manifold!
21:14:17 <augur> :X
21:14:42 <augur> http://www.kleinbottle.com/
21:14:43 <augur> :D
21:14:53 <ehird> Slereah has one of those.
21:15:16 <augur> i bet he does
21:15:33 <augur> he also has one of these: http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Image:Thor2.jpg
21:15:34 <ehird> That was _not_ a euphemism.
21:16:02 <augur> i know it wasnt
21:18:28 <augur> http://www.kleinbottle.com/klein_bottle_hats.htm
21:18:35 <augur> WEAR A KLEIN BOTTLE HAT
21:18:38 <augur> LOOK LIKE A DORK
21:18:38 <augur> 8D
21:19:53 <soupdragon> aliens
21:20:12 <soupdragon> http://www.kleinbottle.com/images/RedYellowWhiteHatScarf_Zoe_.jpg go back to the future you fucking alien
21:20:22 <SimonRC> augur: that better be flexible or there will be injuries
21:20:44 <augur> soupdragon: thats not an alien, thats a girl
21:20:52 <SimonRC> (oh wow ambiguous remark)
21:21:06 <augur> SimonRC: theyre really flexible
21:21:31 <soupdragon> I don't know what you mean
21:21:43 <augur> http://www.kleinbottle.com/images/giantKleinbotandCliff2.jpg
21:22:05 <soupdragon> go back to the fourth dimension!!
21:22:10 <soupdragon> and take your contraption with you
21:22:32 <augur> i bet ehird could fit into that klein bottle
21:22:43 <SimonRC> do people know that it's a pun in German BTW?
21:22:53 <ehird> augur: probably not.
21:22:53 <augur> what?
21:23:03 <augur> ehird: oh cmon, yo're tiny!
21:23:04 <ehird> unless that guy is really freakishly tall
21:23:13 <ehird> say 7ft
21:23:19 <ehird> hmm even 8
21:23:30 <SimonRC> I forget the who thing, but Flache = surface (i.e. manifold), Flasche = bottle
21:23:45 <augur> hah!
21:23:50 <SimonRC> IIRC
21:24:21 <augur> http://www.kleinbottle.com/calibrated_klein_bottles.htm
21:24:22 <augur> hahaha
21:24:45 <SimonRC> Kleinsche Fläche
21:24:51 <SimonRC> says wikipedoa
21:24:56 <SimonRC> *wikipedia
21:25:03 <ehird> Wiki-Pedo! Aah!
21:25:08 <SimonRC> the keys are right next to each other!
21:25:19 <ehird> The kids are right next to each other!
21:25:31 <SimonRC> lol @ callibrations
21:34:34 <ehird> hmm
21:34:42 <ehird> how do you stop a windows server that's hogging a port if it isn't installed?
21:34:52 <SimonRC> huh?
21:34:56 <ehird> apart from killing svchost processes at random until you find it
21:34:58 <SimonRC> how would it be doing that?
21:35:11 <SimonRC> are you using Process Explorer?
21:35:15 <ehird> uh, i started a service listening on port foo and now i want to stop it.
21:35:18 <ehird> no, I guess I should download it
21:35:51 <SimonRC> I can't remember, but PE might have a thingy somewhere that lets you find which process is hogging a port...
21:35:54 <SimonRC> waitamo...
21:36:07 <SimonRC> there is a command I overheard recently that might help
21:36:44 * SimonRC makes a knowlege roll
21:37:13 <ehird> process explorer — most stats i've ever seen on one screen in my life
21:37:42 <ehird> i'm surprised this still runs what with all the stuff i stripped out :)
21:37:48 <SimonRC> heh
21:37:49 <fizzie> I remember a netstat.exe from Windows, but I have no clue whether it can tell processes at all.
21:38:03 <SimonRC> maybe just maybe "netstat" could help
21:38:12 <fizzie> "
21:38:12 <fizzie> -o : Displays active TCP connections and includes the process ID (PID) for each connection. You can find the application based on the PID on the Processes tab in Windows Task Manager. This parameter can be combined with -a, -n, and -p."
21:38:18 <ehird> Okay... apparently this server *isn't* running. Like, at all.
21:38:20 <fizzie> Claims http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb490947.aspx
21:38:46 * SimonRC loves his +3 "random shit I read somewhere" modifier
21:38:53 <fizzie> (And you probably need -a too to get listening ports.)
21:39:08 <ehird> grr no grep on windows
21:39:12 <ehird> i should install powershell
21:39:16 <ehird> i hear it's all hip and whatnot
21:39:23 <SimonRC> psh
21:39:24 <soupdragon> hip to be square
21:39:29 <soupdragon> hip replacement
21:39:41 <fizzie> There's "find", though.
21:39:51 <fizzie> It's pretty much grep.
21:39:54 <ehird> hmm
21:39:57 <fizzie> Without regular expressions.
21:40:00 <ehird> as far as i can tell it's not running :)
21:40:49 <ehird> foo | find "X" only seems to display the last instance of X
21:42:21 <ehird> LISTENING is what i'm looking for right, not TIME_WAIT
21:43:14 <fizzie> Strange, it should display all lines. But, well, who can say; I've never felt Windows was too pipeline-friendly.
21:43:47 * ehird closes Opera to make this easier
21:44:15 <ehird> Uh, some are listening on *:*.
21:44:23 <ehird> Oh, but they're all UDP.
21:44:32 <ehird> The rest are epmap, microsoft-ds, netbios-ssn, and two Opera things.
21:44:34 <ehird> Conclusion.
21:44:42 <ehird> I have an HTTP server that doesn't exist, and is accessing files that don't exist.
21:44:50 <ehird> I will now go insane.
21:44:54 <fizzie> Maybe YOU don't exist!
21:45:02 <ehird> That is a rather reasonable explanation.
21:45:13 <ehird> Well, it's gone now.
21:45:17 <ehird> I sure hope it wasn't just Opera caching it.
21:45:27 <ehird> But I pressed shift+refresh and control+refresh, so.
21:52:22 <ehird> Ugh, this is annoying.
21:53:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:54:35 <ehird> Eh, I give up on TJWS.
21:55:02 <SimonRC> Oh man Australia's TZs are fucked up. They have +8, +8:45, +9:30, +10, plus some others on islands
21:55:11 <ehird> Anyone know any non-shitty HTTP servers/Java servlet containers that can be used as a Windows service? Ha, no, only kidding, no such thing. Man, I kinda wish Frink Server Pages *were* CGIs at this point...
21:55:41 <SimonRC> Oh wow, they have an island in +10:30 which, get this, observer 2 hours of DST!
21:55:46 <ehird> :-D
21:56:02 <SimonRC> no
21:56:04 <SimonRC> WTF
21:56:10 <SimonRC> that must be a type
21:56:21 <SimonRC> it observes minus 10 hours of DST
21:56:28 <ehird> does two hours of DST even make sense?
21:56:32 <SimonRC> it gets DST *backwards*
21:56:35 <SimonRC> ehird: yesh
21:56:44 <ehird> is that two physical hours of DST happening
21:56:44 <SimonRC> *typo
21:56:47 <ehird> or two clock hours
21:56:52 <SimonRC> ehird: huh, what?
21:57:00 <ehird> if two clock hours, the clock would go forward on the first hour, another hour would pass, and it'd go back
21:57:03 <SimonRC> I mean it changes the offset fomr UTC by 2 hours
21:57:05 <ehird> so it'd only be one real hour of DST
21:57:08 <ehird> SimonRC: oh
21:57:17 <ehird> I thought it meant, it has DST for two hours of the year :-)
21:58:56 <SimonRC> ah, I got it wrong
21:59:35 <SimonRC> WP means it shifts by only 0:30 for DST, rather shifting *to* 0:30
22:00:05 <ehird> lol, that would be funny
22:00:27 <ehird> "Time to set the clocks forward." "Aww man, and I thought I was done with menial labour for the day."
22:01:21 <SimonRC> Antarctica is a bit random. They have -4, -3, and +12
22:01:47 * oerjan imagines a floating island that physically moves between australia and europe every six months
22:02:46 <oerjan> i vaguely recall antarctic bases go by the zones of their supply stations
22:03:14 <oerjan> well, at least one base
22:03:26 * ehird installs EmacsW32
22:03:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> Eh, I give up on TJWS. <-- TJWS?
22:03:29 <pikhq> Well, it's not like they can base it off of the sun.
22:03:34 <ehird> Tiny Java Web Server.
22:03:37 <AnMaster> ah
22:03:38 <ehird> I'm using Winstone instead, now.
22:03:44 <ehird> For Frink Server Pages!
22:04:21 <SimonRC> It would be so much easier if everyone just used UTC
22:04:38 <ehird> Not really
22:04:52 <ehird> We can say "I was up until 5am" and this reflects the same conscious experience to all of humanity
22:04:54 <AnMaster> that would mess up local time
22:05:01 <AnMaster> yeah what ehird said
22:05:16 <ehird> which is more important than being easy for machines and bureaucrats :-)
22:05:19 <SimonRC> hmm, maybe
22:05:26 <AnMaster> really it should be based on the sun
22:05:33 <SimonRC> I *was* thinking that if they can get used to summer in January and Winder in July, they can get used to sun at 12:00 and night at 00:00
22:05:43 -!- Asztal has joined.
22:05:44 <AnMaster> so that when the sun was in it's highest point locally, then it was 12:00
22:05:57 <ehird> AnMaster: but that's probably variable
22:05:59 <AnMaster> of course this would mean that near the poles they would just have one date half of the year
22:06:14 <SimonRC> though that China manages ok with one huge timezone
22:06:16 <AnMaster> (since sun doesn't rise at all)
22:06:40 <AnMaster> SimonRC, yeah it will vary a bit there, but not as it varies between Australia and Europe say
22:06:52 <oerjan> SimonRC: nah, it's so awful all the western provinces want to secede </duck>
22:07:42 <ehird> ugh, EmacsW32 is downloading inexplicably slowly.
22:10:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: c-intercal W: Dependency included and not needed ('gcc')
22:10:42 <ehird> C-INTERCAL depends on a cc.
22:10:53 <ais523> Debian mark it as gcc | c-compiler, I think
22:11:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, runtime dep
22:11:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, namcap sometimes give false positives on that
22:11:39 <ais523> it is indeed a runtime deop
22:11:41 <ais523> *dep
22:11:42 -!- oklofok has joined.
22:11:48 <oklofok> HI
22:11:51 <ais523> well, it's a compile-time dep too, given that it's written in C
22:11:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, after all it looks at ldd iirc
22:11:54 <ais523> hi oklofok
22:11:57 <Deewiant> Alright
22:12:05 <oklofok> i decided to come and see the chaos.
22:12:13 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but that would be a builddep
22:12:39 <ais523> it's a builddep /and/ a runtime dep
22:12:42 <oerjan> no chaos here! <sweeps something under rug>
22:13:31 -!- Aszstal has joined.
22:14:21 <ehird> hurry up emacsw32 download god damn
22:14:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:15:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I suppose it's only an optional runtime dep, since you can compile to C without it, or?
22:16:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm good point
22:16:39 <ehird> That's ridiculous.
22:16:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, won't fix it this evening, probably tomorrow
22:16:47 <ehird> By that standard near everything is an optional dependency.
22:17:05 <Deewiant> Not really, most things won't start up if you don't have the appropriate libs.
22:17:06 <ehird> If its absence makes "prog file", the standard usage, fail with a scary error message, it's required.
22:20:39 -!- Azsztal has joined.
22:20:49 -!- Azstal has quit (Connection timed out).
22:21:39 <AnMaster> I have to agree with ehird here
22:21:48 <AnMaster> but what Deewiant said is in the spirit of arch linux
22:27:25 <fizzie> Internet time! It's now @977!
22:27:51 <ais523> yep, sounds about right
22:28:00 <ais523> is it wrong that I can convert in and out of decimal time in my head?
22:28:07 <ais523> I used to use it on my desktop, when I had one
22:28:22 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:31:44 <fizzie> I also like the hilarious unit, ".beat".
22:32:39 -!- Aszstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:33:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, ,beat?
22:33:56 <fizzie> The period of time from @n to @n+1 has a length of one .beat.
22:34:19 -!- soupdragon has quit ("Leaving").
22:34:32 <ehird> AnMaster: by the same token
22:34:37 <ehird> cc should not depend on as
22:34:43 <ehird> because you can use -S without it
22:39:16 <oklofok> ais523: what algo?
22:39:17 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed
22:39:32 <ehird> >_<
22:39:36 <AnMaster> Depends On : binutils>=2.20 mpfr>=2.4.1 cloog-ppl>=0.15.3
22:39:36 <ehird> You're missing the whole point of dependencies
22:39:37 <AnMaster> ehird, ^
22:39:43 <oklofok> what conscious processes that is
22:40:01 <AnMaster> ehird, it does however do that
22:40:03 <pikhq> ehird: Here in Gentoo-land, cc depends on as.
22:40:05 -!- Azsztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:40:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, same on arch actually
22:40:10 <ais523> oklofok: 15 minutes is approximately 10 millidays
22:40:11 <pikhq> Because you can't build cc without as.
22:40:18 <AnMaster> build dependency
22:40:25 <pikhq> The opposite is also true.
22:40:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, gentoo separates build/runtime deps iirc?
22:40:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah.
22:40:41 <oklofok> okay, then sounds simple
22:40:59 <oklofok> i've been trying to work on my mental calculation skills, but obviously i'm starting a bit late
22:41:01 <pikhq> They're also part of system.
22:41:08 <pikhq> And everything has an implicit runtime dependency on system...
22:41:27 -!- Asztal has joined.
22:41:42 <ehird> ha! An area of knowledge in which oklofok does not hopelessly exceed me!
22:41:55 <ehird> instead he merely trounces on my face.
22:42:03 <oklofok> eh? don't you like... fail at addition? :P
22:42:15 <ehird> lol
22:42:19 <ehird> 2 + 2 = 7
22:42:23 <ehird> 2 + 3 = 5
22:42:26 <oklofok> well yeah, i recall a few instances like that
22:42:59 <oklofok> in any case, i haven't really found a good source for what conscious techniques are used, usually
22:43:19 <AnMaster> ehird, only at room temperature
22:43:20 <oklofok> google mostly gives "savant can do lotsa shit, says he sees numbers as pix"
22:43:27 <oklofok> thanks.
22:43:34 <AnMaster> above that 2+2 can reach up to 8 or perhaps even 9
22:43:54 <ehird> oklofok: well you'd refuse to use decimal based heuristics wouldn't you :)
22:44:45 <oklofok> you mean calculating approximations?
22:44:55 <ehird> i mean nothing
22:45:02 <ehird> the only meaning
22:45:05 <ehird> is within yourself
22:45:11 <oklofok> obviously i want the calculations to be correct, otherwise i'd just use smaller numbers
22:45:54 <oklofok> i wish there i knew a good resource on this, but no one seems to do it without a gift
22:46:33 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:47:05 <oklofok> really i find it weird how little people care about anything
22:47:39 <oklofok> says he after skipping all the conversation here after seeing the word dep.
22:48:09 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trachtenberg_system
22:48:58 <oklofok> yeah i suck at googling
22:49:03 <oklofok> looks interesting
22:49:04 -!- Asztal has joined.
22:49:14 * ehird is quickly losing patience with gnumacs
22:49:17 <oklofok> not that i haven't already developed a system
22:49:19 <Asztal> worst router ever
22:49:20 -!- Asztal has quit (Client Quit).
22:49:33 <ehird> i should just install xemacs and deal with the ugly
22:49:42 <oerjan> actually i knew about that because i had a book about it when i grew up (probably still is somewhere)
22:50:09 <ehird> i love that that guy was jovial enough in a concentration camp to come up with fun mental arithmetic stuff
22:50:09 <oerjan> i don't actually recall learning much of it, though...
22:50:18 <ehird> how can you possibly be _bored_ in such a situation
22:51:03 <oklofok> oerjan: that's... the normal multiplication algo
22:52:17 <oklofok> well okay, usually you calculate the stuff in a different order
22:52:34 <oklofok> i guess i've just already optimized that far
22:53:23 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster: Do you know how to disable the automatic insertion of a final newline by Emacs?
22:53:40 <ais523> ehird: there's a config option for it somewher
22:53:43 <ais523> *somewhere
22:53:47 <ais523> I think hooked according to the mode
22:54:01 <ais523> try searching custom for "newline"
22:55:21 <fizzie> "Gnumacs, worst router ever."
22:55:35 <ehird> not enough people use \foo without DRIVE:
22:55:42 <ehird> why type C: if you don't need to?
22:57:41 <ais523> because on Windows it's hard to guarantee what the current drive its
22:57:43 <ais523> *is
22:58:05 <ehird> ugh, and fuck GNUmacs
22:58:11 <ehird> XEmacs C-x C-f: ~\
22:58:18 <ehird> GNUmacs C-x C-f: c:\home/
22:58:27 <ehird> path separator fail, home directory to ~ fail
23:02:12 <ehird> I'm just going to switch to XEmacs.
23:02:27 <ehird> Strange thing about (X)Emacs tabs: they only show files with the same major mode by default.
23:02:43 <ehird> I mean, who thought of that?
23:03:19 <ehird> Oh, and XEmacs has a saner dotfile mechanism too... ~/.emacs → ~/.xemacs/init.el, ~/.emacs + custom cruft → ~/.xemacs/custom.el
23:04:31 <fizzie> To be fair, ~/.emacs.d/init.el is perfectly valid in GNU Emacs too. If you consider that part of the sanity, and not just the init.el + custom.el splittery.
23:04:44 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: AnMaster: Do you know how to disable the automatic insertion of a final newline by Emacs? <-- iirc it defaults to off?
23:04:56 <AnMaster> (setq require-final-newline 'query)
23:04:58 <AnMaster> I have that
23:05:02 <AnMaster> in my .emacs
23:05:07 <AnMaster> ehird, it might help
23:05:08 <ehird> Well, moving-past-bottom-of-file produces a newline, which I dislike.
23:05:18 <ehird> I'm on Windows, I'm gonna use CR+LF and no ending newline, dammit :-)
23:05:32 <ehird> fizzie: Well, yes, but it's default in XEmacs.
23:06:48 <ehird> Biggest WinXP annoyance: explorer crashing resets Quick Launch order and size.
23:09:07 <fizzie> By "default", I guess you mean the fact that it's looked for first, before ~/.emacs? (Well, and I guess GNU Emacs customize-buffer-save or something might generate ~/.emacs "by default" if it's not there.)
23:09:55 <ehird> Well, the simple fact that there's no string anywhere using ~/.xemacs as a file and everything saves to the appropriate ~/.xemacs thingy.
23:10:02 <ehird> I guess ~/.emacs is loaded for backwards-compatibility purposes.
23:10:06 <ehird> It's a culture thing, anyway.
23:10:33 <ehird> Although XEmacs' culture can be accurately described as "stale".
23:10:41 <ehird> Hey, jwz still uses it, so it's not dead yet.
23:10:56 <fizzie> Stale, with a whiff of lemon.
23:10:58 * ehird Install XEmacs 21.5.29 and all packages
23:10:59 <oerjan> ais523: spam spam wonderful spam (http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Main_Page/index.php)
23:11:01 <ehird> Sure, I have 144 megs of disk space.
23:11:10 <ehird> That's more than a third of my Windows installation size, but SURE
23:11:30 <ais523> oerjan: deleted
23:11:48 <ehird> there's nothing quite like it for incurring a ban
23:11:50 * oerjan high fives ais523
23:11:57 <ehird> quick, someone do the next line!
23:13:34 <pikhq> ehird: Well, Windows *is* an OS...
23:13:38 <pikhq> Erm.
23:13:39 <pikhq> Emacs.
23:14:15 <ehird> Fun fact: XEmacs doesn't do font-lock-mode by default.
23:14:23 <ehird> When it does, it's actually displayed in the mode line.
23:14:24 <pikhq> :(
23:19:14 <ehird> XEmacs todo: Disable splash screen. Make modeline prettier. Maybe fix screwy tabs.
23:22:29 <ehird> Can I just say that XEmacs' apropos is niiiiiiiice?
23:24:12 <oerjan> no.
23:24:20 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:24:41 <Sgeo> Annoying thing about Chrome: Killing it is a lottery. There are a million chrome.exe's to kill
23:25:03 <ehird> just kill the parent chrome.exe
23:25:32 <Sgeo> The one with the lowest pid does not seem to be the parent
23:25:47 <Sgeo> creamycentre> Sgeo: end process tree
23:26:03 <ehird> use process explorer or something to find the parent
23:27:43 <SimonRC> I thought that chrome had a built-in process-managing thing?
23:28:03 <SimonRC> I'm sure that was one of its features advertised way back
23:28:36 <ehird> Yes.
23:54:11 <pikhq> Hooray, process mangling.
23:56:25 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:58:04 <ehird> pikhq: You like Emacs, so let me just rant about it to you: I HATE THE CRAP YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET MULTIPLE MAJOR MODES TO WORK >_<
23:59:07 <pikhq> ehird: I AGREE THAT THAT IS RETARDED.
23:59:30 <ehird> All I want to do is define a mode for editing Frink Server Pages... sheesh.
23:59:52 <ehird> HTML mode, between <% and %> Frink mode. Why, XEmacs, are you being so hateful?
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