←2010-01-20 2010-01-21 2010-01-22→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:34 <Sgeo> There now exists another link between "Sgeo" and my RL name :/
00:01:45 <oerjan> MWAHAHA
00:02:35 <Gregor> There exists a link between "Gregor" and my real-life name D-8
00:03:56 <oerjan> pesky ircname fields. is there no way to get around them!
00:04:26 <Gregor> Sgeo: Y'know, it's much easier to just not attempt anonymity.
00:04:56 * Sgeo has also posted on a Mario .. site, despite not having any interest in Mario
00:05:22 <Sgeo> http://forums.mfgg.net/viewtopic.php?p=112527#p112527
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00:27:12 <Gregor> A "Mario .. site"
00:27:15 <Gregor> I assume that means "Mario porn site"
00:27:56 <oklopol> yummy
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00:46:30 <SimonRC> *sigh*
00:47:24 <coppro> going from my nick to my name is easy
00:47:26 <coppro> the reverse is not
00:47:39 <coppro> hmm... looks like I don't even show up until page 3
00:47:39 <SimonRC> elsenet, some irregular visitor to an IRC channel came in and started saying how great some bidding/auction website was
00:47:42 <coppro> hooray generic name!
00:47:53 <oklopol> SimonRC: well is it?
00:48:00 <SimonRC> dunno
00:48:31 <oklopol> how weird that you would complain then!
00:48:35 <SimonRC> I didn't recognise them, so naturally I assumed they were someone poor with good English skills being paid to advertise on IRC
00:48:46 <SimonRC> I mean, it would work as marketing
00:49:05 <SimonRC> unlike a simple bot they can pass the Turing Test
00:49:07 <oklopol> hmm. interesting theory.
00:49:20 <SimonRC> but logs revealed this person was there before
00:49:28 <oklopol> but i still think he's for real
00:50:04 <SimonRC> yeah, it seems they are a "real" member of the channel
00:50:37 <SimonRC> the only article I can find about the site (with a quick search) is this: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/11/19/bigdeal-com-reinvents-and-legitimizes-swoopos-controversial-auction-bidding-model/
00:51:18 <SimonRC> because imitating Swoopo is really the way to get people to trust you!
00:52:19 <SimonRC> that's like describing a political party by saying "they're like the Nazis, except ..." and gradually listing every difference
00:52:44 <oklopol> well thatsounds great
00:52:47 <oklopol> *that sounds
00:52:54 <oklopol> i mean the article
00:53:11 <oklopol> also swoopo
00:53:27 <SimonRC> um, no
00:53:33 <oklopol> um, yes.
00:53:39 <SimonRC> great for whom?
00:53:54 <oklopol> sounds like a fun game
00:54:34 <SimonRC> not with hundereds of quid at stake it isn't
00:55:18 <oklopol> oh you have to bid? well then it sounds sort of evil.
00:55:34 <oklopol> i thought you could not use the site
00:56:05 <SimonRC> huh?
00:56:14 <oklopol> well what's evil about making idiots give their money to you?
00:56:36 <SimonRC> Jeff Atwood explains Swoopo: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001261.html
00:57:14 <SimonRC> and that site does a darn good Swoopo impression without some of the nastier bits
00:57:55 <pikhq> SimonRC: Even if it's "They're like Nazis, but not German"?
00:57:56 <pikhq> :P
00:58:52 <oklopol> oh i thought you have to pay the amount you bid, but you just have to pay for bids
00:59:03 <oklopol> i admit that's much better
01:03:00 <oerjan> join our party. it's a gas!
01:03:28 <oklopol> consider: everyone pays the amount they bid last, but only the biggest bid actually gets the product
01:04:07 <SimonRC> ouch --> "the [Swoopo] auction is extended 15 seconds each and every time someone bids in those final seconds"
01:04:42 <oklopol> well obviously, otherwise it'd be about timing
01:21:34 <Gregor> You could also just end at a random time within a range.
01:22:00 <oklopol> randomless makes it less pure
01:22:04 <oklopol> *ness
01:29:49 <oerjan> indeed, you can only be random in the IO monad
01:29:55 * SimonRC goes to bed
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01:38:39 <coppro> oddly enough, the thing that might make me finally learn Haskell is the IO subsystem
01:42:42 <oklopol> oerjan: a bit too easy
01:42:55 <oklopol> (not that it occurred to me)
01:42:57 <Gregor> The thing that made me learn Haskell was a professor :P
01:43:40 <oklopol> yay three hours of sleep ->
01:44:38 <coppro> Gregor: It's likely to happen that way if I don't get to it myself
01:45:52 <coppro> greatest error message ever: "The database hates you right now. The entry might exist or it might not exist. We would clear this mystery up for you, if we could get to the database. We tried to look it up, but the database puked up an error."
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01:52:37 <oerjan> they shouldn't have used the same database for that AI
01:53:14 <Gregor> What hath you to say for yourself?
01:53:25 <oerjan> um which one of us?
02:03:36 <Gregor> Idonno, whoever.
02:03:46 <oerjan> whew
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08:39:28 <oklopol> <- whoops seven hours of sleep
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13:06:02 <scarf> I had a weird dream last night
13:06:15 <scarf> apparently fizzie had managed to install an "extra" road sign next to the road I live on
13:06:23 <scarf> which stayed hidden, then popped out of nowhere
13:06:35 <scarf> with fungot babble on, with a corpus designed to produce lots of questions
13:06:40 <scarf> and an arrow pointing upwards/forwards
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13:11:50 <fizzie> Have you checked that this was, in fact, a dream?
13:13:47 <scarf> actually, no
13:13:52 <scarf> but I suspect it was
13:14:16 <scarf> it was hilarious seeing drivers drive down the road and suddenly have a semi-coherent question pop out of nowhere, though
13:16:05 <fizzie> It sounds like a good idea, but a bit too complicated to actually do. And the authorities might not approve of this message.
13:16:10 <Sgeo_> Mmm, Microsoft-flavored kool-aid!
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20:47:03 <AnMaster> hi
20:47:14 <oerjan> ho
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22:19:37 <olsner> check this craziness out: git is occasionally a lot slower than CVS, due to working on an entire repository rather than per file :D
22:25:39 <cpressey> Yeah -- having to work with Mercurial regularly now, I have to say my regard for distributed version control is... not very high.
22:28:54 <Gregor> Funny. After switching from SVN to darcs, I never looked back. (Although I did look forward and switched to Mercurial)
22:30:27 <pikhq> Funny, seems to me that the only thing worse than CVS is RCS.
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22:32:04 <Gregor> pikhq: Ever used SCCS?
22:32:15 <pikhq> No.
22:32:37 <olsner> Gregor: let me guess, worse than RCS? :)
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22:35:04 <Gregor> To be fair, it predated RCS, and basically invented revision control.
22:36:08 <cheater3> is currying an example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function-level_programming
22:36:09 <cheater3> ?
22:37:16 <cpressey> cheater3: Uh - kind of, I think.
22:37:47 <pikhq> No, you can curry without doing that.
22:37:51 <cpressey> I think the Haskell crowd would use the term "point-free" for what Backus calls "function-level" -- if I read that page correctly.
22:38:30 <cpressey> Well, function-level programming would encourage currying over not currying.
22:39:31 <cpressey> But yes, just because you're currying something doesn't mean you are necessarily thinking/coding in a "function-level" way
22:39:45 <cheater3> pikhq: i know you can curry without it, but that's not what i am asking about
22:40:50 <cpressey> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree
22:41:02 <cpressey> currying is just sugar, though, as far as i'm concerned.
22:41:39 <MissPiggy> sugar for what?
22:41:59 <cpressey> sugar for a function which takes N arguments and returns a function which takes N-1 arguments
22:42:11 <MissPiggy> hmm
22:42:47 <cpressey> and currying only happens in one direction, when really, you could "pre-set" any of a function's arguments that way
22:43:28 <cheater3> yeah, currying in one direction is stupid
22:43:32 <cheater3> but oh well
22:43:47 <cheater3> so what would a program in function level programming look like
22:44:55 <cpressey> probably like some of the examples on that Pointfree wiki page. No variable names, but lots of "adapter" functions
22:45:06 <cheater3> would it look like ff1(ff2(f1(), f2()), ff3(ff5(f6()), f3()), ff4(f7()))
22:45:09 <cheater3> something like this?
22:45:34 <cheater3> f7 could for example be the 'input' function
22:45:39 <cheater3> aka the argument
22:46:22 <cpressey> well, that wouldn't be "pure" functional programming, since the value returned by f7() would change over time.
22:47:13 <cheater3> pointfree is not funciton-level, it is value-level
22:47:36 <cheater3> cpressey: function-level does not need to be functional. it is not functional programming.
22:48:10 <cpressey> cheater3: I see.
22:48:14 <cheater3> pointfree is value-level because it serves as a build up of values, from which other values are constructed, and so on, until you get the final value which is your program
22:48:21 <cpressey> The page on value-level programming makes that clearer.
22:48:50 <cpressey> *wikipedia page.
22:49:01 <cheater3> there are no other pages
22:49:15 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-level_programming
22:50:33 <cheater3> i meant, there are no other pages than in wikipedia. ;p
22:51:09 <cpressey> I agree, pointfree is value-level. In that case, I'm not sure what the function-level page is talking about...
22:51:47 <cpressey> And, I'm not familiar with any of the languages listed in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Function-level_languages
22:51:49 <cheater3> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP_%28programming_language%29
22:51:52 <cheater3> check this out
22:52:01 <cheater3> read it top to bottom
22:52:53 <pikhq> Currying isn't sugar. *Non-monadic functions* are sugar.
22:53:03 <pikhq> ;)
22:53:21 <cpressey> I mean, I've encountered FP before, but I have no idea what is supposed to make it "function-level" as opposed to "value-level"
22:53:37 <pikhq> Also, damned English, overloading "monadic". :P
22:53:49 <cpressey> It certainly seems like you could do "value level programming" quite straightforwardly in it?
22:55:32 <cheater3> cpressey: the 'functionals' in fp
22:55:43 <cpressey> cheater3:OK, I think I'm seeing it now.
22:56:52 <cheater3> remember that formula i typed up, ff are the functionals, while f are the modules (functions defined by FP. you cannot explicitly define other functions.)
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22:59:06 <cpressey> It's about being only able to create new functions by having them be returned by (a combination of) existing functions, it would seem?
23:00:08 <cheater3> no
23:00:14 <cheater3> a function cannot process another function
23:00:23 <cheater3> only a functional can process a function and return a function
23:00:28 <cheater3> a function always returns a value
23:00:35 <cheater3> except, you never bind values
23:01:00 <cpressey> Oh. So it's partly about distinguishing functionals *from* functions (which "functional languages" rarely do)?
23:01:12 <cheater3> yes
23:01:22 <cheater3> functional languages have nothing to do with function-oriented languages
23:01:35 <cpressey> Interesting.
23:01:39 <cheater3> well, i dunno if it's about distinguishing in the general, but in particular fp does that
23:01:54 <cheater3> maybe you could come up with a language where functionals are functions.
23:02:01 <cheater3> and it would be function-level too.
23:02:12 <cheater3> so in fact what you are building up is a structure without the constants and without the input arguments here
23:02:41 <pikhq> What, you mean there's languages with types other than functions?
23:02:49 <cpressey> It would seem any sufficiently "functional" language (Scheme, Haskell, whatever) would at least allow you to write functionals as higher-order functions, and permit you to write function-level programs. Though not force you to.
23:03:09 <cpressey> pikhq: You are mistaken. There are no languages, only rewrite systems.
23:03:19 <cpressey> ;)
23:03:21 <cheater3> cpressey: you are mixing abstractions. you could write a DSL in haskell, and it could be function-level, but haskell is not function-level.
23:03:25 <cheater3> i think it is not.
23:03:50 <cheater3> cpressey: you are mistaken, there are no rewrite systems, only self-mutating data.
23:05:40 <cheater3> cpressey: i think it really explains the point if you consider that constants in FP are actually calls to the functional constant:x which transforms its argument to the constant valued function always returning that argument.
23:05:42 <cpressey> cheater3: That doesn't seem to conflict with what I said: Haskell permits you to write in a function-level style. (If you want to define such a subset and technique and call it a DSL, that's perfectly valid.)
23:06:06 <cheater3> cpressey: function-level is about what you cannot do, not about what you can do
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23:07:25 <cpressey> So if I write a program which follows all the rules of function-level programming, but that program is in a language which allows violations of the rules of function-level programming -- is that program "function-level" or not?
23:10:01 <cheater3> following your logic i could say that php runs erlang because it's turing-complete
23:10:25 <MissPiggy> PHP = Erlang
23:10:27 <MissPiggy> problem solved!
23:13:56 <cpressey> Sort of. But I don't think it's a very good comparison. Haskell (just as example) seems to be a superset of the machinery required for FLP, whereas PHP isn't a superset of Erlang.
23:14:39 <cpressey> Specifically, functionals sound like a particular role for higher-order functions, which is why I asked about a distinction being made between them and HOFs.
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23:17:54 <cheater3> that distinction is not the defining thing for FLP
23:18:27 <cpressey> Well, that's as far as I've gotten. If not that, what is?
23:18:28 <cheater3> the defining thing is generation of structure
23:18:57 <cpressey> Can you be more specific?
23:19:21 <cheater3> imagine a typical program in an imperative language but on the right side of = there aren't any values, there's just .
23:20:09 <cpressey> Just function calls?
23:20:10 <cheater3> if(.) { x = . ; y = foo(x); z = y * .; }
23:20:26 <cheater3> and then you fill in the dots with what you want
23:20:37 <cpressey> What can "what I want" be?
23:20:50 <cheater3> flat values, called 'atoms'
23:21:04 <cpressey> Thought you said there weren't any values :)
23:21:23 <cheater3> no
23:21:26 <cheater3> there aren't any
23:21:29 <cheater3> only dots
23:21:45 <cheater3> what i typed in with the dots is the output of an FLP program
23:21:58 <cheater3> what you do with it later happens outside of FLP
23:22:24 <cheater3> that program gets evaluated on a certain set of values you plug in for such 'dots'
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23:23:10 <cheater3> this has the immediate result of two programs with the same structure but different resources being the same according to FLP
23:24:28 <cpressey> Sorry, I must be thick, since I'm just not getting it.
23:24:56 <cheater3> ok
23:24:56 <cpressey> And I'm afraid I must be off.
23:25:12 <cheater3> it's ok, you don't need to understand, i'm happy that i understand. ;)
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