00:00:08 <oerjan> oklopol: you're doomed. DOOMED!
00:00:28 <oklopol> :---------------------------------------------------------------------------------O
00:00:51 <oerjan> as would anyone with that kind of nose, mind you
00:13:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:15:14 <augur> oklopol: ok heres the challenge
00:16:10 <augur> i will design a trivial little universe, with very simple physics, and a small finite number of universe configurations
00:19:09 <augur> ill provide you with causal graphs of these configurations and its your job to come up with a description of the physics governing this little universe
00:25:18 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:30:55 * Sgeo still doesn't see why he shouldn't switch to Haskell for all his needs
00:31:44 <pikhq> Because you should.
00:32:04 <lament> because python is better
00:32:18 <Sgeo> forM_ somelist $ \item -> do
00:32:21 <Sgeo> Has its own charm
00:32:46 <lament> if by charm you mean it looks ugly!
00:33:17 <Sgeo> It's not some magic syntax thing
00:33:41 <Sgeo> Unlike for/foreach in just about every other language
00:33:42 <fax> Sgeo, if/then/else *is* magic syntax, but it shouldn't be
00:33:49 <pikhq> Sgeo: forM_ is quite a bit more general, also.
00:36:48 <Sgeo> You know what I don't like? The emphasis that seems to need to be placed on efficiency
00:37:17 <Sgeo> The trivial quicksort that everyone talks about is apparently the wrong way to do it do to efficiency concerns, or something
00:37:29 <fax> Sgeo -- quicksort sucks
00:37:44 <fax> who needs to sort lists ?
00:37:51 <fax> seriously it's just a waste fo time
00:37:56 -!- charlls has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
00:38:33 <Sgeo> Can you say that about every algorithm where the trivial implementation is inefficient?
00:38:43 <oklopol> i bet i could live for a year without a list of any kind
00:39:06 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:40:00 <fax> Sgeo most everything in haskell is inefficent
00:42:18 * Sgeo wonders how you'd write a NetHack-like game in Haskell
00:42:24 <lament> haskell is for dorks who think they're nerds
00:42:24 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:42:35 <fax> Sgeo easy way to find out is to do it!
00:45:12 <Sgeo> There's no nice way to use two different types of STRefs in a single ST monad ins.. whatever it's called, is there?
00:45:27 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:46:01 <oerjan> um what do you mean by two different types of STRefs?
00:46:27 <Sgeo> An STRef that holds an Int and an STRef that holds a String, for instance
00:46:50 <oerjan> of course you can. excuse me while i look it up...
00:50:06 -!- Slereah has joined.
00:51:50 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.ST; import Data.STref; main = runST $ do sr <- newSTRef "1"; nr <- newSTRef 2; writeSTRef sr "n is "; writeSTRef nr 3; s <- readSTRef sr; n <- readSTRef nr; return (s ++ show n)
00:52:21 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.ST; import Data.STRef; main = runST $ do sr <- newSTRef "1"; nr <- newSTRef 2; writeSTRef sr "n is "; writeSTRef nr 3; s <- readSTRef sr; n <- readSTRef nr; return (s ++ show n)
00:53:07 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.ST; import Data.STRef; main = runST $ do sr <- newSTRef "1"; nr <- newSTRef 2; writeSTRef sr "n is "; writeSTRef nr 3; s <- readSTRef sr; n <- readSTRef nr; return (putStrLn $ s ++ show n)
00:53:28 <oerjan> yay just three attempts needed </s>
00:54:40 <fax> !haskell "n is 3"
00:55:08 * oerjan suddenly recalls that it was not necessarily safe to use $ with runST
00:55:37 <pikhq> Everything is inefficient in languages other than bits.
00:55:43 <oerjan> the function to run a command in the ST monad
00:55:47 <pikhq> coppro: runST :: St a -> a
00:56:33 <oerjan> and that type magic means it has varied whether you could use it with $
00:56:45 <oerjan> runST :: (forall s. ST s a) -> a
00:57:02 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:57:22 <Sgeo> I'm still confused about the forall. I know why it's there, but not what it oes
00:58:51 <oerjan> i suppose it ensures that two different invocations of runST can never know that they have the same s, and so are type incompatible and not confused
00:59:17 <Sgeo> That doesn't teach me what forall. is supposed to mean
00:59:33 <pikhq> oerjan: No, forall is not uniqueness typing.
00:59:45 <oerjan> pikhq: i didn't say that
00:59:54 <oerjan> s is a type, not a value
00:59:57 <Sgeo> There is Lady Gaga behind this window
01:00:32 <oerjan> Sgeo: the thing passed to runST must be a value that is polymorphic for _all_ possible s
01:02:46 -!- Slereah has joined.
01:03:54 <pikhq> The "s" must inherently come from runST, and cannot come from anywhere else, because of that forall. So, runST is pure.
01:04:07 <pikhq> Instead of being unsafePerformIO.
01:05:59 <oerjan> Sgeo: afaict the ability to use different types for your STRef's in an ST invocation is precisely how ST _differs_ from State. if you had only one type you would be able to use State with a map or something instead to simulate your refs. but ST with several types cannot be implemented in pure haskell.
01:06:42 * Sgeo still doesn't grok how State is implemented in pure Haskell
01:07:01 <oerjan> well at least you can read the definition
01:07:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: The State monad simply keeps track of a single value called a "state" and threads that around.
01:07:43 <oerjan> newtype State s a = State { runState :: s -> (a, s) }
01:07:44 <Sgeo> How does get get a hold of that thread, if it's type is State a?
01:08:22 <pikhq> You pass runState the initial state.
01:08:48 <pikhq> And "modification" of the state is actually replacing the state with an entirely different one.
01:09:03 <pikhq> (note: compiler may freely replace it with actual modification at will)
01:09:19 <Sgeo> And how is get defined, exactly?
01:09:39 <oerjan> instance MonadState s (State s) where get = State $ \s -> (s, s) put s = State $ \_ -> ((), s)
01:09:53 <oerjan> (line breaks got elided)
01:10:09 <oerjan> instance MonadState s (State s) where get = State $ \s -> (s, s); put s = State $ \_ -> ((), s)
01:11:02 * Sgeo needs a tutorial
01:11:28 <oerjan> so get is a State s s value that takes the threaded state and uses it _both_ for the returned value and the next threaded state
01:11:33 <coppro> oerjan: are those supposed to be uncurried?
01:11:50 <oerjan> get takes no arguments
01:12:16 <oerjan> (unless you unwrap the type first)
01:12:22 <Sgeo> What does the State function do?
01:12:36 <Sgeo> I know that mich
01:12:43 <pikhq> ... That's what it does.
01:12:49 <pikhq> It constructs a new value.
01:13:26 <oerjan> it builds an action in the State monad from a function describing how the threads the state and produces a result
01:13:42 <Sgeo> So get is something that would have >>= before it?
01:13:49 <Sgeo> As opposed to the more usual >>?
01:14:04 <oerjan> apart from type, an action in the State monad _is_ just such a function
01:14:21 <oerjan> nope, get has no function arguments as an action
01:14:30 <oerjan> put, on the other hand, does
01:15:04 <Sgeo> So get just gives the monad a function to execute?
01:15:07 <oerjan> put s is an action that ignores the old state and uses s as the new one
01:15:33 <oerjan> Sgeo: _every_ State monad action is just a function wrapped in a State constructor
01:17:30 <oerjan> and runState does nothing other than unwrap that constructor again. it's there for type purposes only.
01:19:23 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:34:31 -!- wareya has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:47:25 <Sgeo> I keep seeing OCaml being suggested as a stepping stone to Haskell.
01:47:34 <Sgeo> Does that mean for me, OCaml would be a step backwardsa?
01:49:03 <oerjan> well ocaml does have some interesting features not in haskell
01:49:58 <oerjan> like an object system but still with type inference, and an ML-like module system with functors. and better records (haskell's are generally admitted to be awful)
01:51:41 <oerjan> so it might be good to take a look at it still
01:52:21 * Sgeo shouldn't be looking at anything but C# right now
01:52:27 <oerjan> of course for me ocaml _was_ a stepping stone to haskell, so i haven't used it for years
01:52:47 <oerjan> you might look at F# which i hear is descended from ocaml
01:53:16 <oerjan> but i also think it lacks some of those interesting features
01:53:30 <oerjan> while being .NET compatible
01:55:01 <fax> Sgeo ugh no way
01:55:22 <Sgeo> fax, project, with a deadline tomorrow
01:55:30 <Sgeo> Haven't done a single line of code for it today
01:55:33 <fax> @00:47 < Sgeo> Does that mean for me, OCaml would be a step backwardsa?
01:58:02 <Sgeo> You know, I tell my dad that there are people online much smarter than me, and he doesn't believe me
02:09:13 -!- mibygl has joined.
02:19:01 -!- Halph has joined.
02:19:51 -!- coppro has quit (Disconnected by services).
02:19:57 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
02:21:09 -!- cheater2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:21:41 -!- cheater2 has joined.
02:40:03 -!- cal153 has joined.
02:47:26 -!- jcp has joined.
03:01:40 <Sgeo> In Haskell, there always seems to be the Haskell way, and the fast way
03:02:15 <oerjan> i hear there also an intersection, known as fusion :)
03:02:19 <Sgeo> It's really starting to get on my nerves, tbh
03:02:40 * Sgeo should be thinking in C# right now
03:10:58 -!- clog has joined.
03:10:58 -!- clog has joined.
03:18:24 -!- augur has joined.
03:19:26 <mibygl> Wayat? Wayat? Wayat? Wayat?
03:19:34 <mibygl> Daygo! Daygo! Daygo! Daygo!
03:43:14 -!- mibygl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:58:14 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:59:17 -!- Asztal has joined.
03:59:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:59:56 * Sgeo has had an incredibly unproductive day today
04:13:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
04:26:14 <Sgeo> (I don't know how to say yes in Lojban, so I said it in Esperanto)
04:32:29 * pikhq suggests you learn Japanese
04:34:19 <Sgeo> My computer professor seems to think I know a lot of programming languages
04:34:28 * Sgeo really only knows most on a superficial level
04:40:19 <fax> Sgeo every time I have to hand in computer work I get strange compliments about how advanced it is .. even when I try not to bed
04:40:42 <Sgeo> Why would you bother trying not to be advanced?
04:42:14 <fax> because I don\t like it when they tell me that :<
04:44:25 * Sgeo loves being way ahead of everyone else
04:44:50 * Sgeo doesn't love the fact that there's a deadline TOMORROW, it's almost midnight, and I haven't done a single worthwhile thing today.l
04:45:10 <coppro> what's the assignment?
04:45:25 <Sgeo> coppro, project that I've been talking about for the past few months
04:45:43 <coppro> and haven't paid attention
04:46:04 <Sgeo> coppro, game that I'm making with a few other people [only one other programmer]
04:46:16 <Sgeo> It's on the AW platform, so it's not as much work as it sounds, but still
04:46:42 <Sgeo> The um.. financer, I guess, is giving us some stuff, but wants to see results
04:46:44 <coppro> is the deadline the due date, or a partway-through thing
04:46:54 <Sgeo> partway-through
04:47:03 <coppro> and I presume you aren't there yet?
04:47:29 <Sgeo> Fairly close, but if the person's expecting 100%, it's not happening
04:48:08 <Sgeo> Anyways, I'm going to restart the computer, and hopefully that will leave a clean slate to let me focus
04:49:49 <coppro> let me give you a piece of advice
04:49:55 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
04:50:05 <coppro> do not turn on IRC when you reboot, unless its necessary for your work
04:50:10 <coppro> if it is, join only the necessary channesl
04:50:55 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:52:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:58:29 -!- Sgeo has joined.
04:59:04 -!- fax has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
05:03:13 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
05:21:25 <augur> so, who wants to play with universes? :)
05:22:38 <Sgeo> I think I tend to seek 12 different tutorials for things
05:23:21 <Sgeo> Also, I've noticed something: I can accept learning a language because I have to. Such languages [C#, LSL] are treated as tools
05:23:54 <Sgeo> Other languages [Python, Ruby, Haskell, Scheme], it feels like they're all competing for my affection. It's as though I'll only allow myself to truly love one language.
05:32:48 -!- pikhq has set topic: This topic was correct once | Last topic change: 0 Anno Domini | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
05:37:38 <Sgeo> If Haskell can't do state, then surely it isn't Turing Complete?
05:38:21 <augur> sgeo, it can simulate state!
05:38:29 <augur> like the lambda calculus can!
05:38:43 <Sgeo> What does Calculus have to do with anything?
05:39:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: It can do more than simulate state.
05:39:13 <pikhq> ST is entirely imperative. It is also entirely pure.
05:39:14 <Sgeo> /ctcp pikhq time
05:39:26 <coppro> Sgeo: uh, please tell me that you haven't been hanging out in here for months while never once hearing of lambda calculus
05:39:30 <Sgeo> I thought Haskell can't do imperative
05:39:53 <augur> not calculus as in newton/leibniz
05:39:55 <augur> a "calculus" is a means of calculating something.
05:40:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, you see, it only pretends to. With this "monad" bullshit.
05:40:09 <pikhq> Named after Monad Leibniz.
05:40:40 -!- wareya has joined.
05:41:24 <Sgeo> So, this Monad fellow.. he invented math and computers?
05:41:28 <pikhq> Used as follows: let Monad M = new template<Monad M <new template>> M(this); M.bind.return.imperative( // What follows is C++ code.
05:41:49 <pikhq> The syntax was chosen, of course, to be compatible with C++'s most brilliant design principles.
05:42:07 <augur> is SGEO being full of shit? XD
05:42:12 <pikhq> Oh, also. What follows after "//" is not a comment.
05:42:20 <pikhq> augur: The day is most certainly not 4-01.
05:42:31 <pikhq> And such a day has in no way any significance.
05:43:03 <augur> well! one never knows
05:43:18 <augur> i dont know Sgeo much
05:43:33 <augur> i also dont participate in april fools, so it never crosses my mind
05:44:14 <Sgeo> In all seriousness, there should be an esolang based on pikhq's "code"
05:44:31 <Sgeo> [In all full seriousness, I always say that there should be an esolang]
05:44:37 <wareya> I tried five fucking different floppy drives
05:44:41 <wareya> and not a single one worked
05:45:02 * Sgeo misread that as "fucking five". For some reason, AFD is making my mind act drunk
05:45:02 <pikhq> Hmm. The SCP foundation has had a breech. It would seem that today is a good day to die.
05:55:52 <Sgeo> btw, coppro, I've been here for years
05:56:05 <Sgeo> At the latest, since late 2007, when I got started on PSOX
06:01:39 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
06:03:43 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:10:54 <Sgeo> Not working for me in Chrome, but still
06:11:06 -!- wareya has joined.
06:16:19 <pikhq> Doesn't work in Firefox.
06:16:57 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:27:06 * Sgeo is doing April Fool's stuff instead of trying to get this stuff done :(
06:28:01 <coppro> Sgeo: /quit, close your browser, reopen your browser, open exactly those pages which are required for your work
06:28:12 <Sgeo> Not going to /quit
06:28:31 <Sgeo> I need people to talk to
06:29:02 <coppro> then /part out of every channel except the ones related to your work
06:29:09 <coppro> you do not need people to converse with casually
06:31:45 <Sgeo> Can I talk to you while I work?
06:32:07 <Sgeo> I just had a semi-revelation: I don't need to actually have the bot do anything for this part
06:32:11 <Sgeo> It's pure in-AW code
06:32:23 <Sgeo> Except for persisting it, but that could be a separate part of the bot
06:43:16 * Sgeo feels like he's cutting corners by doing this
06:43:37 <Sgeo> Also, I did kind of take pikhq's statement as permission to talk casually in here
06:53:55 <Sgeo> For all I know, I have nothing to do, and the guy will be satisfied as-is
06:54:06 -!- metaphlex has joined.
07:03:50 -!- tombom has joined.
07:04:04 <Sgeo> I should at least add the mechanism for the bot to "click" items
07:05:10 -!- metaphlex has quit (Quit: Leaving).
07:06:04 -!- rapido has joined.
07:07:26 -!- rapido has left (?).
07:15:03 * Sgeo decides that he'll just write a report on the state of the bot, then go to sleep
07:39:21 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:49:24 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
07:50:03 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:09:30 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:18:37 <Sgeo> Hah! This small drop of code worked perfectly the first time!
08:26:16 * coppro wonders if that sale was real or if I'm going to get an April Fools' package
08:33:47 * Sgeo writes a "State of the Bot Address"
08:34:16 * Sgeo hopes that this is enough to convince the person funding this that enough was done so far
08:35:47 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WccS6q8Mo-U&feature=channel&textp=fool
08:37:12 <Sgeo> flip=1 no longer works?
08:38:09 <Sgeo> Or, what was the thing to flip it?
08:38:16 <Sgeo> Last year or something
08:40:36 <Sgeo> They're reviving Virgle
08:42:36 <Sgeo> "And Project Virgle, our co-venture with Richard Branson and Virgin to launch the first permanent human colony on Mars, will henceforth be known as Project Vireka."
08:43:12 <coppro> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/different-kind-of-company-name.html
08:44:33 <Sgeo> Is the death of star ratings on YouTube for real or Apr1st?
08:45:44 <coppro> signs point to permanent
08:45:55 <coppro> though one can never tell with Google
08:46:32 <Sgeo> Google tends to be more "nope, it wasn't April 1st joke after all"
08:46:39 <Sgeo> Then again, that's coming from one data point
08:47:41 <coppro> I also like the units of measure on the search page
08:48:17 <Sgeo> Maybe someone was using that information for something important! And now they just screw it up?
08:48:40 <coppro> "Whatever the outcome, the conclusion was clear: we aren't in Google anymore."
08:49:04 <Sgeo> lol; I think I missed that
08:52:14 <coppro> it was in the blog post I just linked
08:54:28 <Sgeo> coppro, I know, I read it before, and failed to notice that line
08:54:56 <Sgeo> Also, this "wear blue for autism on April 2nd" stuff is backed by racing4autism, which links to Autism Speaks and Generation Rescue
08:57:32 -!- lereah_ has joined.
09:29:11 <augur> the youtube stuff is awesome
09:30:06 <augur> i like the cosmonauty textp XD
09:32:36 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:34:14 <myndzi> the ascii youtube video thing has actually been around a while
09:34:20 <myndzi> it was some other site that would do it
09:34:29 <myndzi> i like that youtube brought it in
09:36:23 <fizzie> For the DIY folks, it's pretty much always been possible to just plug a youtube get_video URL into mplayer, and use either the aalib or libcaca text-based video-out drivers.
09:36:24 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
09:39:14 <fizzie> Also for some reason on this work-workstation there's no TEXTp mode visible. Aw.
09:39:46 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
10:48:32 <Ilari> Does libcaca support 256-color mode? :-)
10:50:00 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
10:50:39 <fizzie> Ilari: I have a feeling it does, but I'm not completely certain.
10:51:30 <fizzie> Ilari: The web page just says "2048 available colours (some devices can only handle 16)". (I'm not sure where they have 2k colours... maybe using the "direct" X11 output, I think it had one too.)
10:51:50 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Client Quit).
10:52:08 <fizzie> Yes, there's ncurses, slang, x11 and gl drivers in it.
10:58:01 <Ilari> All kinds of "insane transports" and "insane platforms" are fun to do as an joke...
10:59:45 <Ilari> I haven't done any really crazy combos... I think the craziest was SSH inside SSH...
11:00:32 <Gregor> I remember running X11 over aalib once, don't recall what the middle layer that made that possible was though.
11:00:49 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
11:01:39 <Ilari> I once got Quake II using aalib by mistake...
11:02:10 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Client Quit).
11:03:42 <Gregor> Tritonio doesn't like that.
11:05:20 <Ilari> (SDL autofallbacks video drivers...)
11:05:23 <fizzie> Ascii-Quake never was much fun, but we spent a while playing networked 0verkill -- http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~brain/0verkill/ -- which was pretty fun for a while.
11:15:44 -!- cal153 has quit.
11:16:29 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
12:11:15 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:19:59 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
12:24:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:25:07 <oerjan> dammit and here i thought the topic would be correct today :(
12:25:39 <oerjan> come to think of it, this might not be the day to expect such a thing
12:40:26 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
12:42:06 -!- oklopol has joined.
14:05:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:26:33 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:26:56 -!- Deewiant has joined.
15:03:54 -!- oklofok has joined.
15:04:38 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:28:56 -!- MizardX has joined.
15:36:31 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:47:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:53:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:55:23 -!- charlls has joined.
15:58:52 -!- lereah_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:12:23 -!- Asztal has joined.
16:26:25 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:39:59 -!- oklopol has joined.
16:45:57 -!- oklofok has joined.
16:47:25 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:55:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:55:21 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
16:57:49 <AnMaster> hm xkcd did a very nice thing for today
17:00:51 -!- cheater2 has joined.
17:01:17 -!- cheater2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:01:35 -!- cheater2 has joined.
17:04:24 -!- jcp has joined.
17:12:39 -!- tombom has joined.
17:44:13 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:50:29 <AnMaster> hah at the units in google's search result
17:50:55 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 1,810,000,000 for google. (0.14e+43 Planck times)
17:58:02 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:58:37 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:59:54 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:00:23 <Slereah> Must be a google US exclusive prank
18:00:36 <AnMaster> Slereah, but I use google.com normally
18:00:51 <Slereah> I do too, but it switches automatically to .fr
18:00:52 <AnMaster> just a link near the bottom of the front page
18:00:57 <zzo38> Some people made the "Check for brainwave activity" code as short as 10 bytes in shell scripts, I cannot quite figure it out but I did reduce it to 12 bytes. After 10 days I can figure out what it is
18:01:01 <Slereah> I hate it when softwares try to second guess me
18:02:02 <Slereah> There's a "post to facebook" option on the post window for april fool
18:02:16 <AnMaster> Slereah, oh and maps.google.com.au gives directions in AU slang
18:02:32 <AnMaster> "Turn a smidge left when you get to South Western Mwy
18:02:33 <AnMaster> Ya might have to cough up some cash along here"
18:02:58 <AnMaster> Slereah, still waiting for the RFC
18:04:28 <zzo38> Will there be a fool RFC this year?
18:04:48 <zzo38> Will INTERCAL be released this year?
18:05:36 <zzo38> RFC is short for "Request For Comment"
18:06:01 <zzo38> It is usually a specification for some internet protocol or something like that. But it can sometimes describe other stuff, too
18:07:32 <AnMaster> and there is usually joke ones on 1 April
18:07:43 <AnMaster> Slereah, are you serious about never having heard about RFCs?
18:07:57 <AnMaster> like the IRC RFC, 14xx (forgot the last two digits)
18:08:48 <AnMaster> Slereah, IP, TCP, HTTP and pretty much every other common non-vendor-specific protocol is specified in one (or more) RFC(s)
18:11:13 * Sgeo pulled a fax earlier, maybe Slereah's doing the same?
18:13:58 <oklofok> hello everyone, this morning i woke up to find i had turned into seven monkeys
18:14:25 <oklofok> and only three of those monkeys were virgins
18:19:36 <lament> congrats, you're 4/7 less of a virgin than before
18:20:16 <zzo38> Hello, this moring I woke up to find out that my bed was on the ceiling
18:20:27 <zzo38> And I had eight eyes, just like my D&D character does
18:20:36 <zzo38> But then I realized I was still sleeping
18:20:58 <oklofok> lament: i can't do the math do you mean i was a virgin before or that i wasn't or what?
18:21:03 <AnMaster> * Sgeo pulled a fax earlier, maybe Slereah's doing the same?
18:21:21 <AnMaster> oklofok, how many were using typewriters?
18:21:25 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I convinced at least two people that I was more of an idiot than I am
18:21:30 <oklofok> he's referring to the time fax said she didn't like haskell
18:21:37 <AnMaster> oklofok, this is of uttermost importance!
18:21:44 <oklofok> the time she said she doesn't know haskell
18:22:06 <AnMaster> Sgeo, wow. That would be like at absolute zero then?
18:22:18 <lament> oh, today is 1st of april, which means we can all lie to each other
18:22:32 <AnMaster> lament, why should I trust that?
18:22:48 <lament> but today is really the 1st of april
18:23:03 <AnMaster> lament, go to xkcd and type date into the javascript shell on that page
18:23:06 -!- augur has joined.
18:23:20 <lament> using xkcd in an argument instantly disqualifies you
18:23:44 <zzo38> Match 32? My calendar says it's Arch 42 and a half.
18:24:11 <AnMaster> lament, har. But I quite liked his unix like shell that he remade the front page into today
18:24:26 <Sgeo> It has an IRC client
18:24:45 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what network does it go to?
18:24:58 <Sgeo> Type irc AnMaster or something
18:25:11 <augur> i think xkcd should stick with this theme forever.
18:25:15 <Sgeo> Also, `find kitten` is fun
18:25:19 <zzo38> I just tried the xkcd shell. I typed "pwd" and it responded with "You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike."
18:25:50 <Sgeo> sudo apt-get upgrade
18:27:32 <AnMaster> just tells you everything is fine or something (forgot exact message)
18:28:00 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:28:55 -!- cheater2 has joined.
18:29:13 <Sgeo> AnMaster, not if you're using Firefox < 3, or IE
18:30:04 <Sgeo> AnMaster, look
18:32:13 <AnMaster> Sgeo, and I doubt my other installed browsers could check it
18:32:30 <AnMaster> (because they are text only and don't support javascript)
18:32:35 <AnMaster> Sgeo, as for "look" yes I saw that
18:32:52 <AnMaster> trivial to solve that once you realised that you were already carrying the lamp
18:33:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
18:35:30 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:39:41 -!- cheater2 has joined.
18:43:42 -!- coppro has joined.
18:47:49 -!- augur has joined.
19:04:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:06:11 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:09:01 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:10:11 -!- adam_d has joined.
19:18:46 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:22:45 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
19:24:15 -!- cheater2 has joined.
19:36:51 <zzo38> When I write a Linux distribution I will have to do some things like, "wg" is like "wget -O -", "e" is "echo", "en" is like "echo" but each parameter is output to a separate line, and so on
19:43:58 <zzo38> I should also do it so that if the window manager's key is pushed and released by itself, it will show/hide mouse pointer (moving the mouse also shows the pointer)
19:45:36 <Gregor> So essentially, you think Linux would be better if it was cryptically difficult to use.
19:45:59 <pikhq> Those are of great confusion.
19:46:08 <zzo38> Well, this is how I would make it, anyways. There would be more two letter commands and one letter commands, for one thing.
19:46:12 <pikhq> And I note that I only recently started using a window manager that reparents.
19:46:40 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:46:46 <zzo38> I would probably write a new shell, too, with some new features and some removed, and so on
19:46:52 <pikhq> coppro: Most window managers reparent windows so they can draw title bars.
19:47:00 <pikhq> And window borders.
19:48:19 <pikhq> Ratpoison leaves the parent as root, because who needs graphics?
19:48:26 <pikhq> That's not why you're running X, is it, silly?
19:49:23 <zzo38> And I also have to make it be: All window manager's functions are accessed with the window manager's key and combination with keyboard and/or mouse, except for clicking the title bar and task bar, which can be done without. Which key is the window manager's key could be configured, and can be indicated "wm-" in emacs notation
19:49:57 <zzo38> For example, wm-t could show/hide taskbar and wm-tab could switch next window, and so on, like that.
19:50:12 <zzo38> It should hide the title-bar for maximized windows, so therefore I will make it to do tha.
19:50:36 <pikhq> zzo38: That sort of thing is fairly common. I assume you'd go a bit further in that you would make *all* functionality keyboard-accessible, which few WMs use, but... Yeah.
19:50:50 <pikhq> Could quite reasonably just do a few minor patches against Fluxbox for that.
19:51:43 <zzo38> Yes, ake *all* functionality keyboard-accessible. Although, a few things would work with the mouse also because some things might work better with it, for example if you want to size/move a window or select window or stuff graphically (there is three mouse buttons, and also modifier keys, so there is many combinations)
19:52:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:52:59 <pikhq> As I said, fairly reasonable, and it would probably not take much work to add to Fluxbox.
19:53:07 <zzo38> So, ALT+mouse won't drag a window unless ALT is the window manager's key. And even if it is, you have to use the middle mouse button.
19:53:23 <zzo38> Because wm key + left mouse button would be used to resize windows instead.
19:54:11 -!- sshc has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:55:57 <zzo38> We don't need any fancy gradient title-bars and 3-D dialog boxes and stuff like that. We don't need any icons or buttons on the title-bar either, the mouse already has three buttons!
19:57:10 * Sgeo is putting his project away for the rest of today, and all of tomorrow
20:01:39 -!- hiato has joined.
20:01:59 <zzo38> Many two-letter and one-letter command names are not used yet in UNIX, and some things I don't agree how they work (such as wget sending output to the file instead of to stdout, all programs should receive their input from stdin and send their output to stdout, and then you can use < > to redirect to files or | to pipes to other programs)
20:12:39 <zzo38> And if "pm" is the package manager, you could install an external package with "wg http://example.org/pm/web-browser | pm" or something like that.
20:13:59 <zzo38> Or, probably more like: wg http://example.org/pm/web-browser | s pm -I
20:15:16 -!- adam_d_ has joined.
20:18:08 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:20:05 <zzo38> When using a package manager, the path to the install files should be send to stdout and the status information to stderr
20:20:31 <Gregor> Y'know what would be nice? A soundfont for strings that didn't suck UTTERLY.
20:21:25 <coppro> somewhere over the rainbow
20:21:51 <Gregor> Filthy, disgusting lies.
20:23:19 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: You've been a wonderful audience).
20:23:32 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
20:23:47 <Gregor> Actually, what would be really wonderful is a string quartet that would play what I wanted them to for no money :P
20:24:45 <ehirdiphone> So hey, I've been discharged from the unit. After Wednesday's meeting they decided they could find no problem and that my admission was an error.
20:25:13 <Sgeo> Hi ehirdiphone. I wish I was certain that that wasn't.. yeah
20:26:23 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:27:09 -!- dougx has joined.
20:27:36 * Sgeo wonders if xkcd.com works on the iphone
20:27:43 <ehirdiphone> I'm too tired to even go on the computer. Tomorrow.
20:28:19 <Sgeo> You can't check xkcd.com on the iPhone?
20:28:51 <Sgeo> http://xkcd.com
20:29:26 <Sgeo> Not talking about the comic
20:29:31 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, everything works on the iPhone. Except Flash.
20:31:30 * Sgeo is a Reddit admin!
20:31:57 <Sgeo> No, globally [mods are what's by subreddit, btw]
20:33:33 <Sgeo> Wait, why can't I upvote to infinity anymore?
20:33:43 <Sgeo> Oh, I don't have the admin thing active
20:34:10 <ehirdiphone> I should have known: I wondered why I never saw his posts or comments, if he is so prominent.
20:35:28 <Sgeo> YouTube has a new TEXTp mode
20:36:00 <Deewiant> http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2010/03/textp-saves-youtube-bandwidth-money.html
20:37:32 <Sgeo> Epigram programming language?
20:41:19 <zzo38> The next feature they need to add is the one to automatically print out transcripts of videos, without requiring Flash
20:41:44 <zzo38> If they had that feature I would use it.
20:43:26 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo: Yes; and proof assistant. The development of its second version is going at a leisurely pace.
20:47:32 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
20:47:53 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
20:48:18 -!- rodgort has joined.
20:48:21 <ehirdiphone> With some sort of drawing support, so I can write stuff and have it unicodified.
20:49:22 <lament> the iphone needs to be softer and more porous
20:49:47 <lament> for a more comfortable tactile experience and better retention of fecal matter
20:50:04 <Sgeo> Saw some article about "Youngest iPhone developer?" Apparently the person's 14
20:50:15 <Sgeo> Somehow, I don't think that sort of thing impresses ehirdiphone
20:51:27 <ehirdiphone> Inductive setoid : * := over : Pi (A:*). Pi (R:BinaryRelation A). setoid
20:51:30 <lament> after extensive experimentation, i have to say i still find regular 2-ply paper preferrable to any version of the iPhone
20:53:02 <ehirdiphone> Inductive setoidV : * -> * -> * := mask : Pi (A:*). Pi (R:BinaryRelation A). A -> setoidV A R
20:54:38 <ehirdiphone> Function setoidT : Pi (S:setoid). * := match S with over A R => setoidV A R end.
20:56:21 <ehirdiphone> Type rational : * := setoidT (over (natural x natural) (too lazy))
20:56:23 <fizzie> ehirdiphone: Coincidentally, the N900 repository has texlive.
20:56:48 <fizzie> I can't imagine it being very friendly to use.
20:58:25 <ehirdiphone> Inductive setoid : * := over : Pi (A:*). BinaryRelation A -> setoid.
21:00:14 <ehirdiphone> Except you need to add that A -> B has cardinality \aleph_0 iff B has. I think.
21:00:46 <ehirdiphone> Or otherwise... Hmm, more than the cardinality of B.
21:02:03 <ehirdiphone> Can't prove it, requires a bijection from A->B to naturals or finite set (naturals mod some N)
21:03:50 <ehirdiphone> Hmm. Does INF -> FIN really have infinite cardinality?
21:09:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:11:57 <ehirdiphone> Type theory has really boring cardinalities
21:13:45 -!- adam_d_ has changed nick to adam_d.
21:19:39 <ehirdiphone> It does mean that the biggest thing can be constructed trivially, though — Inductive N : * := z : N; s : N -> N.
21:20:29 <coppro> red oval, green oval, blue oval
21:20:39 <ehirdiphone> I guess there are only countably infinite types.
21:21:49 <ehirdiphone> bijections between functions/types tofro naturals
21:22:51 <ehirdiphone> For functions, metajustification: if you can analyse functions' in/out pairs on countably infinite sets it can never exceed their cards
21:23:12 <ehirdiphone> For sets, too lazy to come up with a real justification
21:23:43 <ehirdiphone> Actual implementation for functions could be serialise ast. It doesn't matter.
21:27:59 -!- sshc has joined.
21:37:36 -!- augur has joined.
21:40:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:41:50 <Sgeo> ehirdiphone, can you read email on that thing?
21:42:12 <ehirdiphone> pow S := sum T, forall x:T, x in T -> x in S
21:43:47 <Sgeo> If you want, read the email I sent to agora BUS: Re: In Honor of B
21:43:56 <Sgeo> Or just http://pastie.org/private/vv0eusi1ahas50htd7w
21:46:17 <ehirdiphone> pow S := sum T, forall U, (forall x, x in U -> x in S) -> U in T
21:49:53 <oerjan> <lament> for a more comfortable tactile experience and better retention of fecal matter
21:50:27 -!- dougx has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:54:31 <oerjan> 13:11:57 <ehirdiphone> Type theory has really boring cardinalities
21:54:32 <oerjan> 13:12:21 <ehirdiphone> 0 <= card <= \aleph_0
21:54:46 <oerjan> um i thought cantor's proof was constructively valid
21:54:53 <Ilari> Darn, netcat doesn't seem to support IPv6... :-/
21:55:05 <ehirdiphone> Inductive apart (T:*) : T -> T -> Prop := lfer : forall T, forall x:T, forall y:T, (exists P, P x /\ ~P y) -> apart x y
21:55:20 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: Yeah but you cannot construct the reals
21:55:57 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: but (Integer -> Bool) can have no bijection with Integer, or whatever
21:56:35 <ehirdiphone> And all that means is that the comp reals have no cardinality as such
21:56:39 <oerjan> (terminating (Integer -> Bool), of course)
21:57:17 <oerjan> assume you have a bijection b : Integer -> (Integer -> Bool)
21:57:57 <oerjan> then \n -> not (b n n) gives a contradiction
21:58:09 <ehirdiphone> I think fax said something about this it is only metatheoretivally valid
21:58:50 <oerjan> well if (s)he means it in the sense that there _are_ countable models, then that is true of ZFC as well
21:59:05 <oerjan> but there can be no bijection _internal_ to the model
21:59:19 <oerjan> or surjection, for that matter
21:59:36 <ehirdiphone> anyway why is that a contradiction? Of course you have no idea what b does
22:00:21 <oerjan> well for b to be a surjection _means_ : forall f : Integer -> Bool, exists n : Integer such that b n == f
22:00:52 <oerjan> well let f = \n -> not (b n n)
22:03:18 <oerjan> well in ZFC they are of course equal, but here i don't know
22:04:16 <oerjan> i assumed you meant something called the reals in your system
22:04:38 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:04:43 <oerjan> it is afaik _meaningless_ to compare cardinalities from ZFC with cardinalities in your system
22:05:01 <oerjan> they're not in the same fundamental theory model
22:05:10 -!- augur has joined.
22:05:15 <ehirdiphone> I wonder what the infinite cardinalities are?
22:05:38 <oerjan> and outside a model, everything can be considered countable if the axioms are (and they must be if things are finite strings)
22:06:03 <oerjan> well cantor's theorem can be iterated of course, to get a sequence of larger sets
22:06:38 <ehirdiphone> The computable reals are definitely smaller than the reals
22:06:42 <oerjan> um i'm talking about something more fundamental than the reals
22:07:06 <oerjan> basically, A^B is _always_ larger than B if A has at least 2 elements
22:09:25 <oerjan> of course not. for infinite cardinalities in ZFC, A^2 always has the _same_ size as A
22:10:10 <oerjan> erm i thought you were still confused about A -> B vs. B -> A
22:10:34 <oerjan> A^B is a notation for (B -> A)
22:11:26 <oerjan> it's intuitive based on cardinalities, |B -> A| = |A|^|B| in ZFC
22:11:53 <ehirdiphone> So maybe type theory "cardsets" — canonical types of a certain card are
22:12:29 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:12:42 <ehirdiphone> N mod m (Fin m), N, N -> Bool, (N -> Bool) -> Bool
22:12:46 -!- augur has joined.
22:13:23 <oerjan> it presumably could only look at finitely many N for each function
22:14:13 <ehirdiphone> Admittedly that's propositions, not booleans, but...
22:17:15 <oerjan> it just feels, intuitively, like if your (N -> Bool) -> Bool function does not recognize its argument somehow (and wouldn't something like the halting problem prevent it from doing so in general) then it cannot really do anything better than testing specific N values
22:17:40 <ehirdiphone> (P z \/ ~P z) -> (forall n, (P n -> P (s n)) /\ (~P n -> ~P (s n))) -> (forall n, P n) \/ (forall n, ~P n)
22:21:11 <ehirdiphone> (B (f z) \/ ~B (f z)) -> (forall n, (B (f n) -> B (f (s n))) /\ (~B (f n) -> ~B (f (s n)))) -> Bool
22:22:48 <ehirdiphone> Inductive B : Bool -> Prop := yep : B true
22:23:48 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
22:28:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:31:55 <Sgeo> This is the Epigram language?
22:32:41 -!- augur has joined.
22:36:21 -!- adam_d_ has joined.
22:40:14 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:40:58 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
22:44:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:49:23 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:49:52 -!- augur has joined.
22:54:24 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.).
23:02:18 <AnMaster> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5841
23:02:53 <oerjan> sorry, you're two minutes too late. i cannot _possibly_ read this now.
23:02:58 <AnMaster> (1 april RFC this year it seems)
23:03:45 <AnMaster> "Packets do not have birthdays, so packets can be marked as surprised when they encounter unexpected error conditions."
23:04:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's April 2 now
23:04:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, well sure, but RFC are published in US timezones
23:04:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, also it isn't April 2 in UTC
23:04:47 <AnMaster> in UTC you have two hours - 5 minutes left
23:05:16 <oerjan> that would be _cheating_
23:08:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:09:12 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:12:53 -!- charlls has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
23:18:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:22:31 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
23:22:50 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:24:03 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
23:24:53 * Sgeo_ sends AnMaster a few packets with the user mood >:)
23:25:49 <Gregor> Hahahah, Wikipedia's being clever by using misleading wording instead of outright lies :P
23:26:27 <Gregor> "A Japanese multinational conglomerate (headquarters pictured) investigates how some of its customers were accidentally sent back in time to the year 1999."
23:26:36 <Gregor> (Sony investigating the PS3 date bug)
23:26:51 <Sgeo_> Gregor, Wikipedia always does that
23:27:01 <Gregor> Never looked before :P
23:27:22 <Sgeo_> Hulu has a 3d button
23:27:56 <Sgeo_> http://www.hulu.com/internal/confidential/the-initiative-chapter-1
23:40:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:47:40 -!- Oranjer has joined.
23:48:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).