←2010-04-13 2010-04-14 2010-04-15→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:06:22 <songhead95> did I make an error so embarrassing that it needs no response?
00:06:43 <ais523> no, I just wasn't paying attention
00:06:44 * ais523 looks
00:07:23 <ais523> songhead95: barring the non-implementation of [ and ], that's almost identical to the original BF interp
00:07:34 <pikhq> Yup, that's the correct behavior.
00:08:07 <songhead95> than how come when I compile it and write ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ .
00:08:13 <songhead95> ^D
00:08:15 <songhead95> it does nothing
00:09:04 <ais523> strange
00:09:15 <ais523> are you sure the output wasn't overwritten by your prompt?
00:09:28 <ais523> try ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ ++++ . > +++++ +++++ .
00:09:55 <songhead95> still nothing
00:10:51 <ais523> bizarre
00:11:02 <songhead95> what happens when you compile it?
00:11:04 <ais523> oh, got it
00:11:11 <ais523> the line "interpreter=0" needs to be moved one line earlier
00:11:19 <songhead95> oooh
00:11:35 <ais523> as it is, you've put most of your code in the C equivalent of a header comment
00:11:44 <ais523> (using two while loops with identical conditions, so the second one can't run)
00:14:11 <songhead95> but if when the first one ends, and the interpreter is set to 0, the array code is used read only
00:15:09 <songhead95> and I am still baffled at the thought of the loops
00:18:20 <songhead95> so on "case '['"
00:18:39 <songhead95> i need a var named nested to look for the nearest ']'
00:18:50 <songhead95> but execute everything on the way if it is 1
00:19:00 <songhead95> or wait
00:19:01 <songhead95> no
00:20:36 <songhead95> didn't someone say there were 5 or 6 ways of doing this
00:20:37 <songhead95> ?
00:20:49 <AnMaster> of what? loops in bf? probably
00:21:02 <AnMaster> I would put it in a linked list with down wards nodes for loops
00:21:06 <AnMaster> if doing bf in C
00:21:15 <AnMaster> the recursive parser would put it in that
00:21:25 <AnMaster> trivial, done it when writing bf compilers
00:21:44 <AnMaster> bf *interpreters* never interested me much, but the same idea should work
00:22:05 <songhead95> what about a two dimensional array that is different levels of nested loops?
00:22:12 <songhead95> wait no it would work different
00:22:25 <AnMaster> that sounds weird
00:22:27 <songhead95> auughh
00:22:40 <songhead95> have you read my pastebin?
00:22:43 <AnMaster> songhead95, you just need to track [ as you go along
00:22:53 <AnMaster> songhead95, no I'm not on a device where I can easily do that
00:23:20 <AnMaster> songhead95, anyway track [ in a stack, then when you hit a ] you pop the last [ position
00:23:22 <AnMaster> that works too
00:24:04 <AnMaster> you need to add the tests at [ and at ] for if the loop should continue
00:24:20 <AnMaster> well, either that or keep track of where the ] was when you jump back to [
00:24:49 <AnMaster> songhead95, as an optimisation you can store the position of the matching ] to the [ when parsing
00:24:55 <songhead95> I can't get too into this now, but I will be back!
00:25:06 <AnMaster> otherwise if you never enter the loop you need to run along the code and not executing it
00:25:09 <AnMaster> songhead95, night
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01:20:04 <Rugxulo> 03:12:29 <fizzie> Aw, Rugxulo already went?
01:20:13 <Rugxulo> yeah, after an hour + half of no chat :-)
01:20:23 <Rugxulo> (vastly different timezones don't help either)
01:20:49 <augur> adrian is so silly 8D
01:21:42 <Rugxulo> I assume -DFUNGE isn't really needed for ff3 (unless based upon Marsh, doubt it)
01:22:23 <Rugxulo> would be interesting to see somebody with a behemoth of a fast machine try the "benchmark" (AnMaster? Deewiant?)
01:22:29 <Sgeo> Yay! Chrome spontaneously froze
01:22:36 <Rugxulo> on Linux?
01:22:41 <Sgeo> Windows
01:22:48 <Rugxulo> Win7 x64?
01:23:03 -!- aschueler has quit (Quit: leaving).
01:23:06 <Sgeo> No
01:23:08 <Rugxulo> are you sure? it's usually most stable on Windows
01:23:09 <Sgeo> WinXP
01:23:22 <Rugxulo> bring up the Task Manager and kill the errant tab(s)
01:23:25 * Sgeo has a lot of tabs open, on a fairly weak machine
01:23:43 <Rugxulo> that's probably why, it uses more RAM than Firefox with more tabs open
01:23:52 <Sgeo> :/
01:24:13 <Rugxulo> heh, Sgeo, this machine is WinXP w/ 128 MB, so I'm not crazy enough to open too many tabs in Chrome (even running Opera just to save RAM)
01:24:21 <Rugxulo> gah, stupid "reboot now?" reminder over and over again
01:24:39 <Sgeo> Rugxulo, I remember there's a trick to disable that, but don't remember what it was
01:24:52 <Rugxulo> sure, kill it ;-)
01:27:04 <Sgeo> What's the nicest way to determine dpi?
01:30:42 <Gregor> Sgeo: Put your eye RIIIIIGHT next to the monitor and count.
01:32:47 <Sgeo> Why does my emulated Android phone have no net connection?
01:32:54 <Sgeo> The one I made before had one :/
01:40:20 * Sgeo goes to play in the emulator's terminal emulator
01:41:03 <Rugxulo> what kind of stuff can you run on it?
01:41:25 <Sgeo> Um, Android apparently uses something called Dalvik
01:43:12 <Sgeo> Oh, huh, networking's working now
01:43:33 <Rugxulo> Dalvik is some lite Java-ish VM, right?
01:43:58 <Sgeo> Not really sure
01:47:29 * Sgeo now wonders how to root his emulator
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05:38:41 <Rugxulo> fizzie, still here? you should try "bef2c -p -o" and use GCC on that
05:38:56 <Rugxulo> speeds up the (lame) "benchmark" a lot that way
05:39:12 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, it doesn't use string mode mostly because bef2c doesn't handle that
05:39:24 <Rugxulo> so I couldn't do "d" instead of 91+:*
05:40:04 <Rugxulo> now only takes 20 secs. (bef2c/GCC-compiled output) on this P4
05:43:02 <Rugxulo> actually, I think I accidentally timed the 4.2.3 output in the whole comparison that I quoted earlier
05:43:13 <Rugxulo> I can't match the time for GCC 4.4.2 on this P4
05:43:35 <Rugxulo> apparently 4.4.2 is much faster (52 secs.) vs. 4.2.3 (76 secs) or something like that
05:43:50 <Rugxulo> but whatever, the comparison is still valid, I used the same .EXE on each machine :-P
05:44:26 <Rugxulo> bah, stupid timezones
05:44:38 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> AnMaster, it doesn't use string mode mostly because bef2c doesn't handle that <-- sounds buggy. It is part of befunge, should be supported
05:44:57 <pikhq> And a fairly simple part of Befunge.
05:45:00 <Rugxulo> Deewiant, I ended up coding around your "quirk" in --befunge93, I still really wonder why you'd even *want* to reflect on unknown chars
05:45:02 <AnMaster> yes
05:45:13 <Rugxulo> bef2c doesn't handle "p" or string mode
05:45:18 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, buggy
05:45:19 <Rugxulo> blame Pressey, not me ;-)
05:45:27 <AnMaster> true
05:46:01 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Reflection on unknown is fairly useful for Befunge 98.
05:46:10 <Rugxulo> yeah, but for --befunge93 ????
05:46:12 <pikhq> Where it is entirely possible for an instruction to not be supported.
05:46:26 <pikhq> And that is just common behavior in Befunge 93.
05:46:27 <Rugxulo> bef.c (without -q) whines but still ignores 'em
05:46:45 <pikhq> But Befunge 93 does not define that behavior.
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05:46:48 <pikhq> :)
05:47:05 <Rugxulo> I'll admit, I haven't tested every B93 implementation ever, but 99% of them don't reflect on ';' (etc)
05:47:19 <pikhq> Mine does. ;)
05:47:37 <Rugxulo> then you'll be glad to know that I worked around it in two of my other (lame) .bef scripts
05:47:51 <fizzie> Rugxulo: I get something like 0.2 seconds for the benchmark in jitfunge.
05:48:01 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, .bef?
05:48:04 <AnMaster> isn't it .bf
05:48:16 <Rugxulo> I prefer ".bef"
05:48:23 <Rugxulo> Brainf*** uses .b and sometimes .bf
05:48:24 <AnMaster> .b -> brainfuck; .bf -> befunge93; .b98 -> befunge98
05:48:36 <Rugxulo> besides, the original interpreter was "bef", so ...
05:48:51 <pikhq> 16 seconds for my interpreter.
05:48:58 <Rugxulo> on what hardware?
05:48:58 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yeah by that logic befunge98 should be .ffbi
05:49:04 <Rugxulo> also try "bef2c -p -o"
05:49:11 <Rugxulo> no, but you know what I mean
05:49:24 <pikhq> Phenom II x3 710.
05:49:30 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I don't?
05:49:37 <Rugxulo> since "bf" was ambiguous, I think "bef" is more appropriate, *especially* since the original interpreter was named "bef" (and not "bf")
05:49:38 <pikhq> Also: I'm not *sure* how long cfunge takes on it.
05:49:49 <Rugxulo> pikhq, what GCC?
05:50:06 <pikhq> (I killed it after some 11 minutes)
05:50:11 <fizzie> pikhq: Tried ff3 on your box?
05:50:13 <pikhq> gcc (Gentoo 4.4.3 p1.0) 4.4.3
05:50:14 <Rugxulo> ooh, x3, lucky dog ... I saw an ad for an AMD x3 only once, almost wanted it just for the novelty ;-)
05:50:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, that was 64-bit or 32-bit?
05:50:17 <pikhq> fizzie: Yeah, 5 seconds.
05:50:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: *Oh*. Probably 64-bit. XD
05:50:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah 64-bit is default
05:50:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, have fun during the next 800+ years!
05:50:50 <Rugxulo> heh
05:51:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Now then.
05:51:26 <AnMaster> (probably much more than that, it doesn't scale linearly with number of bits I bet)
05:51:27 <Rugxulo> pikhq, I dunno if 16 secs. is optimal for your advanced hardware ... for a P4, sure, but for a Phenom II ... ???
05:51:48 <pikhq> Rugxulo: My interpreter could be much faster.
05:52:07 <pikhq> Cfunge takes 10s.
05:52:09 <Rugxulo> they all can ;-)
05:52:26 <pikhq> Ff3 takes 5.
05:53:03 <pikhq> Amusingly, if I were to *make* mine faster, I would basically have the same code as ff3.
05:53:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, really? not too shabby
05:53:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, did you use -march=native?
05:53:15 <Rugxulo> have you tried bef2c yet?
05:53:33 <Rugxulo> -march=native didn't help at all here (P4)
05:53:52 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you tried cfunge too?
05:53:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: Default CFLAGS for my system are "-O2 -march=amdfam10 -pipe -ggdb", and I've been adding -O3 on top of that.
05:54:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah
05:54:03 <Rugxulo> no, cfunge won't run on Win32, remember?
05:54:15 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, how would I remember you use win32 though?
05:54:22 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, also iirc ehird got it working under cygwin
05:54:29 <AnMaster> with gcc 3.x
05:54:36 <pikhq> I've been considering writing me a Befunge '98.
05:54:40 <Rugxulo> latest Cygwin has (IIRC) GCC 4.x
05:55:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh btw, how long does ccbi1 and ccbi2 take on that benchmark for you?
05:55:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: I am *not* setting up a fucking D compiler.
05:55:30 <Rugxulo> don't have to, binaries provided on Deewiant's site
05:55:39 <pikhq> It has just given me too damned much pain.
05:55:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, he has binaries
05:55:46 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Okay then.
05:56:09 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/jitfunge/src$ time ./jitfunge ../../ff/benchmark.bef 2>/dev/null
05:56:12 <fizzie> 2147483596
05:56:14 <fizzie> real 0m0.153s
05:56:21 <pikhq> fizzie: Nice.
05:56:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, system specs?
05:56:27 <Rugxulo> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/files/befunge/interpreters/ccbi/ccbi-linux-x86-64.txz
05:57:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: Athlon X2 5600+ or something; ff3 runs benchmark.bef in 6.something seconds.
05:57:21 <AnMaster> ah
05:57:58 <pikhq> The binary has 64-bit cells.
05:58:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, did it properly execute it or was it skipping most due to some bug?
05:58:24 <Rugxulo> Deewiant, why no comparison with FBBI anymore? too buggy??
05:58:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: Judging from the result, I'd say it does it right.
05:58:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh right
05:58:30 <Rugxulo> (re: Mycology)
05:58:43 <pikhq> 32-bit build does *not*. :)
05:59:29 <pikhq> ccbi takes 19 seconds.
05:59:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, hah. Well that is a 32-bit pointer build
06:00:16 <AnMaster> it might explain why it is slower in part
06:00:45 <pikhq> And it takes 45 seconds with --befunge93.
06:00:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, haha
06:00:53 <pikhq> That is a *slow* b93 interpreter. :P
06:00:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, well he said he worked on it
06:01:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh and for cfunge the -s 93 mode won't make a difference. It _only_ changes from SGML spaces to befunge93 string mode
06:01:48 <AnMaster> everything else follow 98 rules still
06:01:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: I noticed, actually.
06:02:02 <AnMaster> consider it just a compatibility mode
06:02:08 <AnMaster> not a full befunge93 mode
06:02:25 <AnMaster> I really lack interest in doing anything more advanced for befunge93
06:02:37 <pikhq> Yeah...
06:02:49 <pikhq> If you *really* want to, just ship ff3 or something.
06:02:52 <Rugxulo> snob ;-)
06:02:58 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, to me?
06:03:00 <AnMaster> heh
06:03:06 <Rugxulo> yes (semi-jokingly)
06:03:09 <AnMaster> right
06:03:13 <augur> http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/hs/geb/VideoLectures/index.htm
06:03:25 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I just find befunge93 fairly boring compared to befunge98
06:03:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, can you check how long efunge takes on it?
06:03:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Link?
06:04:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, do you have bzr?
06:04:13 <AnMaster> I haven't yet made a release
06:04:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: No.
06:04:24 <AnMaster> let me see if it has tarballs
06:04:42 <pikhq> Anyways. Befunge-98 implementation. I've got half an idea to go ahead and compile a row or column into threaded code whenever code would be flowing through said row or column.
06:04:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, https://code.launchpad.net/~anmaster/efunge/trunk
06:04:55 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, so boring that you can't implement compatibility? tsk tsk ...
06:05:07 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, would slow me down :P
06:05:08 <Rugxulo> does anyone here have write access to the esolang archive?
06:05:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is no release yet sorry
06:05:22 <pikhq> Making all of the actual interpreting instructions step just via goto *ip++, goto *ip--, or goto *ip+=delta.
06:05:35 <Rugxulo> after all the time you "saved" with your lightning-fast C99/POSIX/x64+SIMD B98 interpreter?? :-P
06:05:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway efunge will either be slower or faster than Language::Befunge. Which of those I don't know
06:05:59 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, how do you mean saved?
06:06:06 <Rugxulo> conserved
06:06:17 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh I meant "slow me down" as in "slow interpreter down"
06:06:37 <Rugxulo> keep the fast bits for B98 mode, others for B93
06:06:49 <pikhq> (Oh, and obviously invalidating precompiled threads upon code modification)
06:06:57 <pikhq> Thoughts?
06:07:01 <Rugxulo> I can't think of any B93 script that needs a "fast" interpreter anyways
06:07:05 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, still. You need to have two main loops and two different switch statements
06:07:14 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, this benchmark? life.bf?
06:07:30 <Rugxulo> write a B93 interpreter in B98, then, if that's all that fascinates you ... best of both worlds :-))
06:07:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, ?
06:07:54 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, hah
06:08:16 <Rugxulo> (seriously, though, esolang archive is dreadfully anemic, all of us could add lots and lots to it)
06:08:47 <AnMaster> mhm
06:08:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Compiling a row or column into a single bit of threaded code when control would flow into it, so that all the actual *interpretation* doesn't involve much work at all.
06:09:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, you mean like ff3?
06:09:13 <pikhq> For Befunge-98.
06:09:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, you still have non-cardinal delta
06:09:30 <AnMaster> like going diagonally
06:09:40 <AnMaster> or (3,48) or whatever
06:09:42 <Rugxulo> BTW, just vaguely curious, anybody ever used the Sponge "compiler"?
06:09:46 <pikhq> Argh, yes. That would require significantly more work.
06:10:00 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, the scheme→befunge one?
06:10:05 <Rugxulo> yes
06:10:06 <AnMaster> tried it
06:10:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'd be tempted to treat that as a slow case.
06:10:37 <pikhq> :P
06:10:39 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, iirc it lacked call/cc which made me somewhat uninterested
06:10:52 <pikhq> (how much code actually *uses* non-cardinal delta, anyways?)
06:11:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, I use 11x fairly often
06:11:07 <Rugxulo> he didn't seem to provide any examples, so I was curious if it was "just because" or ...
06:11:19 <pikhq> Hmm...
06:11:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, also remember the code may not be compact. You may have a single value at (1778246873,6472673) or whatever
06:12:08 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, who is/was "he" there?
06:12:18 <pikhq> Non-cardinal delta makes it a royal pain to *cache* any of the threaded code.
06:12:19 <Rugxulo> whoever wrote Sponge (I forget ...)
06:12:21 <AnMaster> ah
06:12:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, See, befunge98 is a lot more interesting ;P
06:12:45 <AnMaster> a greater challenge
06:12:59 <AnMaster> bbl, going to university
06:13:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: A single value at (1778246873,6472673)?
06:13:16 <pikhq> Why, that would just be an array with two elements!
06:17:58 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/jitbench.txt is what LLVM's static compiler bits make out of the IR dumped by jitfunge. It's not quite optimal, but not too horrible either.
06:19:01 <fizzie> It would have been nicer if it could have moved the stack push/pop out of the loop.
06:25:00 <pikhq> Faster than what nearly anything else is going to do with it.
06:26:01 <Rugxulo> sed -e 's/\(.\{80\}\).*/\1/' -e '25q' mycology.b98 >mycology.b93
06:26:07 <Rugxulo> (seems correct, easier than manually doing it)
06:26:55 <Rugxulo> that's what I get for sticking with 128x128 for no good reason :-/
06:27:08 <Rugxulo> sorry, just rambling to myself, carry on ...
06:27:42 <Rugxulo> (none of you ever did benchmarking after running through bef2c, oh well ...)
06:29:01 <Rugxulo> and I still say that reflecting in --befunge93 is wrong ... if "fbbi -93" and "bef -q" both accept it, then why don't you?
06:29:40 <pikhq> Because I decide what to do on undefined behavior. :P
06:30:37 <ais523> what undefined case is this?
06:30:59 <Rugxulo> reflecting on unrecognized chars in B93 mode
06:31:01 <pikhq> ais523: What to do on unknown characters, Befunge93.
06:31:04 <ais523> I remember that interfunge goes mad if the input file isn't exactly 80x25, with lines padded out with spaces to the right length
06:31:06 <ais523> pikhq: ah
06:31:08 <Rugxulo> original / official doesn't reflect, but ...
06:31:21 <Rugxulo> BTW, ais523, did you release a new Intercal on April 1?
06:31:26 <ais523> no
06:31:30 <pikhq> In Befunge93, most things are undefined.
06:31:33 <ais523> I don't have one to release, I've hardly worked on it
06:31:39 <Rugxulo> awww :-/
06:31:50 <ais523> although if there's somewhere to put a repo online, I don't mind letting people see the state it's in atm
06:32:00 <ais523> so people with more spare time than me can fork it, or whatever
06:32:12 <Rugxulo> what, you're giving up? *sniff*
06:32:22 <fizzie> Hee, with -DUNSAFE_STACK, it goes nicely: http://zem.fi/~fis/jitbench-unsafe.txt
06:32:27 <fizzie> .LBB12_2: # %Entry0
06:32:28 <fizzie> # =>This Inner Loop Header: Depth=1
06:32:28 <fizzie> addECX, -100
06:32:28 <fizzie> testECX, ECX
06:32:28 <fizzie> jle.LBB12_2
06:32:44 <fizzie> Hm, raw tabs. Anyway.
06:32:59 <ais523> Rugxulo: no, not really
06:33:04 <ais523> just, unlikely to work on it very fast
06:33:21 <ais523> I /did/ get a bug report recently, which I may try to fix
06:33:32 <ais523> and a feature request, denied on the basis that it already existed with the same syntax in Perl and PHP
06:34:28 <nooga> what request exactly?
06:34:47 <ais523> the $$variable syntax from Perl/PHP
06:34:54 <ais523> (which would become ..1 or whatever in INTERCAL)
06:35:01 <pikhq> ais523: Though crazy, yeah. Definitely not for INTERCAL.
06:35:12 <pikhq> It's insufficiently crazy -- someone's done it!
06:35:22 <ais523> yep
06:35:52 <Rugxulo> speaking of crazy, I wonder if AnMaster has considered using Pash (Powershell subset) for anything ;-)
06:36:33 <Rugxulo> Pash = crazy, not AnMaster (obviously?)
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06:36:53 <ais523> just being here is evidence of being crazy, or else lost
06:36:55 <Rugxulo> ah, forgot he left for university, bah
06:37:09 * Rugxulo still doesn't understand _Lost_
06:37:34 <ais523> I don't think you're meant to understand it
06:38:59 <Rugxulo> well, there aren't that many episodes left!!
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06:47:26 <Rugxulo> damn Wikipedia is weird ... why hyperlink the number "4" ???
06:47:50 <oerjan> *some of wikipedia's editors
06:48:05 <oerjan> i don't think it's generally recommended behavior :D
06:48:10 <ais523> Rugxulo: if it's a date, that's fine
06:48:11 <oerjan> *its
06:48:18 <Rugxulo> not a date
06:48:20 <nooga> uh
06:48:28 <ais523> piping it to [[4 (number)]] is weird, and possibly should be delinked
06:48:30 <Rugxulo> I've also seen a link to a page for "motherf**ker" !!
06:48:33 <ais523> linking it to [[4]] is just plain wrong
06:48:47 <Rugxulo> all because "Epic Beard Man" [sic] is famous for that on his shirt :-))
06:49:02 <Rugxulo> so yeah, quite absurdly useless
06:49:19 <oerjan> *it's
06:49:39 <oerjan> too early for me
06:50:13 <Rugxulo> "4 (four) is a number, numeral, and glyph. It is the natural number following 3 and preceding 5."
06:50:19 <Rugxulo> (turning into Sesame Street?)
06:50:31 <ais523> Rugxulo: just in case you don't know what 4 is
06:50:46 <ais523> in some esolangs, defining numbers can be rather tricky
06:51:06 <ais523> in Underload, for instance, you'd probably define 4 as (:::***), but might use any number of other definitions
06:51:17 <Rugxulo> "Motherf**ker (euphemized as mf) is a vulgarism which, in its most literal use, refers to one who participates in sexual intercourse with someone's mother."
06:51:25 <Rugxulo> I'm so glad Wikipedia cleared that up for me ;-)
06:52:11 <Rugxulo> and we (#esoteric) are the crazy ones??? :-P
06:52:59 <oerjan> everyone is crazy, just some people are so crazy they think they aren't
06:55:11 <Rugxulo> but seriously, Wikipedia is ultra cool ... but a little crazy!
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07:22:35 <Rugxulo> ah well, gonna jet ...
07:22:43 <Rugxulo> bye
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09:58:04 <Deewiant> In case Rugxulo logreads...
09:58:41 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Reflection seems like the sensible thing to do since that's what I'm used to from -98... but I suppose I can switch it to nop instead
09:59:22 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: No FBBI in the new comparison because it's too buggy and because it's not likely to be updated; the old comparison results are still there, though.
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10:01:41 <Deewiant> pikhq: I improved that -93 result, but it'll still be slower than -98 on that benchmark since the -98 is clever enough not to execute a nop (80 - width of program) times.
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10:05:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: Of course you can just customize the interp for the particular program:
10:05:55 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/ff$ gcc -o ff3 ff3.c -DINTERLEAVED -O2
10:05:56 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/ff$ time ./ff3 benchmark.bef
10:05:56 <fizzie> 2147483596
10:05:56 <fizzie> real 0m6.119s
10:05:56 <fizzie> user 0m6.080s
10:05:58 <fizzie> sys 0m0.000s
10:06:00 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/ff$ gcc -o ff3 ff3.c -DINTERLEAVED -DPF_X=15 -DPF_Y=1 -O2
10:06:03 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/src/ff$ time ./ff3 benchmark.bef
10:06:05 <fizzie> 2147483596
10:06:08 <fizzie> real 0m2.429s
10:06:10 <fizzie> user 0m2.420s
10:06:13 <fizzie> sys 0m0.000s
10:06:18 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's cheating. :-P
10:06:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: No, it's... uh, being environmentally conscious! No sense in wasting bytes!
10:08:19 <Deewiant> The environment won't thank you when the local nuclear reactor's control system's 75x19 Befunge-93 core breaks down due to being run in a "customized interp"!
10:09:12 <fizzie> Could add boundary tracking (with a fixed maximum) to ff3 too, but then I'd have to re-paint the border zone whenever they are extended.
10:09:28 <Deewiant> Which would be very cheap in -93
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10:10:30 <fizzie> That's a project for some day that I'm unsick enough to get out of bed; the N900 keyb is not quite so coding-friendly.
10:11:03 <Deewiant> You're sick in bed and on IRC about Befunge? That's clever :-P
10:11:27 <fizzie> What else is there to do?
10:12:07 <Deewiant> Typically when I'm bedridden I pretty much just sleep and eat
10:12:30 <fizzie> Except that I have to get up every 15 minutes to check if the cat wants to come in from the balcony. There should be some sort of system for that.
10:12:40 <Deewiant> If I'm "just" very ill, I can usually manage to sit at the computer as usual
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15:34:50 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> speaking of crazy, I wonder if AnMaster has considered using Pash (Powershell subset) for anything ;-) <-- I never heard of pash before
15:35:15 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Why, that would just be an array with two elements! <-- two? Also there would be some data around 0,0 as well of course
15:35:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, what I meant was that data can be *very* sparse
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15:42:28 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Except that I have to get up every 15 minutes to check if the cat wants to come in from the balcony. There should be some sort of system for that. <-- develop that, in befunge
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15:42:58 <AnMaster> <oerjan> too early for me <-- what is the optimal time for you then?
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15:43:23 <oerjan> sometime not just after i woke up
15:43:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, okay. But that doesn't spec how long
15:43:39 <AnMaster> like
15:43:46 <AnMaster> half an hour?
15:43:48 <AnMaster> 1 hour?
15:43:50 <AnMaster> 3 hours?
15:43:57 <oerjan> and perhaps after i finish breakfast, too
15:44:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, and why were you using irc during/before breakfast?
15:44:53 <Deewiant> Why not?
15:45:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well if he had problems with it
15:45:48 <oerjan> um it was a joke?
15:45:53 <AnMaster> oh
15:47:26 <oerjan> admittedly there is one reason not to - i _do_ seem to accumulate crumbs in my laptop keyboard
15:47:41 <oerjan> occasionally
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16:07:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh
16:07:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, I only have hair in it, mostly due to not eating at computer very much
16:13:11 <Sgeo> Wanting to use Scala even when Java interoperability is not required isn't a bad thing, is it?
16:14:11 <oerjan> i think scala is interesting in itself
16:14:24 <oerjan> dammit crumb under f key
16:14:56 <oerjan> seems to have vanished
16:15:27 <oerjan> i hear it's type system has become even more advanced since when i looked (briefly) at scala
16:15:40 <oerjan> *its
16:16:45 <oerjan> what the heck avg's whole computer virus scan has become three times faster since last time
16:16:47 <Sgeo> Type erasure's no fun though, and its sole reason for existance is Java compatibility
16:16:54 <oerjan> i guess it's got better at skipping things
16:17:57 <oerjan> oh wait or maybe...
16:21:45 <oerjan> nope all the old java versions are still there (i had to reinstall the latest one recently)
16:22:13 <oerjan> avg used to spend an eternity inside those
16:22:52 <oerjan> you know, at this rate i might start scanning more often than once a month again ;D
16:24:05 <Sgeo> Hm, I take it that for things like web access, you're meant to use Java libraries
16:24:28 * oerjan wouldn't know
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16:43:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: Two elements for that column. That's just the threaded code array.
16:43:33 <pikhq> And I'm not sure how well this could be... Cached. At all.
16:46:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, so how are you storing funge space in this model? Remember it can be very sparse
16:47:17 <AnMaster> <oerjan> what the heck avg's whole computer virus scan has become three times faster since last time <-- because of the malware hiding 2/3 of the disk?
16:47:33 <oerjan> er...
16:47:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, bad joke
16:47:49 <oerjan> let's hope not.
16:47:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh
16:47:59 <oerjan> it _did_ find three trojans
16:48:09 <oerjan> (hiding in the same place as usual)
16:48:17 <AnMaster> what's the "same places" as usual?
16:48:26 <AnMaster> pron dir?
16:48:28 <AnMaster> or what ;P
16:48:35 <AnMaster> brb
16:49:16 <oerjan> C:\RECYCLER
16:49:54 <oerjan> at least i've seen that before
16:50:26 <Sgeo> oerjan, you hope that what AnMaster said wasn't a joke?
16:50:39 <oerjan> no, that it wasn't real
16:53:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm halfway to abandoning this model because it doesn't handle the sparseness correctly.
16:54:58 * Sgeo should be doing laundry
16:56:32 <oerjan> oh laundry, right
16:56:46 <oerjan> well, after i've finished eating
16:57:25 <AnMaster> back
16:57:28 <oerjan> have to replenish the keyboard, after all
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18:01:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, a hash table is definitely the simplest data structure for *storing* the Befunge space.
18:03:14 <pikhq> My thoughts are more on how to go from there to a simple array for interpreting. Not quite sure what to do about that.
18:11:50 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, a hash table is definitely the simplest data structure for *storing* the Befunge space. <-- not the fastest
18:12:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, what I recommend is starting with a hash table but making sure to use a clean API to it so you can reasonably easy rip it out later when other stuff is working and replace it with something faster
18:12:39 <pikhq> No, I never said it was the fastest.
18:13:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, something like setup() load_file(), dump_to_file(), get(), set(), get_bounds() (for y) and perhaps wrap_ip()
18:13:31 <pikhq> "Simple" and "fast" are very rarely the same thing. :)
18:13:52 <Deewiant> They often are if you allow the thing to be "wrong" as well
18:15:26 <Asztal> I'm a bit confused at the exact funge-space bounds thing. How am I supposed to recompute the bounds if someone puts a space onto the outermost edge?
18:15:39 <Deewiant> Expensively :-P
18:15:44 <Asztal> Yeah, I thought so. :P
18:16:04 <Deewiant> There are ways to cheapen it but basically, expensively.
18:16:25 <Asztal> Good thing my funge space is essentially a bounding volume hierarchy.
18:18:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, point is, being able to rip out and replace funge space without too much of a PITA is a good idea. Make them macros if you are worried about speed
18:19:29 <pikhq> One of the big things I see from the choice of data structures is that it's probably a royal pain to access the fungespace in the line that the code is going in.
18:19:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have considered that. What about specialised hardware to do it?
18:19:55 <Deewiant> Go ahead; you'll have to donate me some if you want it to show up in Fungicide though :-P
18:20:04 <AnMaster> hah
18:20:27 <AnMaster> isn't there memory that can compare a value in constant time? Used for network switches to find MAC addresses and such iirc
18:20:43 <ais523> AnMaster: what exactly do you mean by that?
18:20:58 <ais523> there's certainly hardware which can sort n packets in log n time
18:21:12 <ais523> hmm, no, log m time, where m is the maximum address
18:21:17 <AnMaster> ais523, well you can check if a value is in memory and what is accoiated with it (would be port number I assume)
18:21:23 <ais523> but it takes rather a lot of hardware to do so
18:21:24 <AnMaster> associated*
18:21:31 <ais523> AnMaster: isn't that just a hash?
18:21:49 * pikhq goes to kanji review
18:22:01 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc it basically have lots of parallel comparing circuits
18:22:07 <AnMaster> one for each "slot" in memory
18:22:11 <AnMaster> so it can check all values at once
18:22:31 <AnMaster> ais523, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content-addressable_memory
18:22:51 <ais523> ah, ok
18:23:03 <ais523> hardware that does constant-time hash-/reversing/, that makes more sense
18:23:32 <ais523> hmm, or maybe forwards, depending on your point of view
18:23:37 <AnMaster> well yeah
18:23:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I just think of it as a way for network switches and such to find what port a given MAC is on
18:25:58 <AnMaster> first: actually tracking column/row counts shouldn't be too expensive in hardware, after all you could just "listen" to the writes to funge space and update the counts. With no performance cost (yes this is a speed-space tradeoff most certainly)
18:26:19 <AnMaster> so doing what cfunge with exact bounds do shouldn't be too hard.
18:26:31 <AnMaster> then using some smart algorithm for that should make it interesting
18:26:49 <AnMaster> oh and of course, funge space could be implemented as a CAM with xy to look it up
18:27:28 <AnMaster> allowing constant speed to a given number of cells. 2^32*2^32 wouldn't be feasible of course. But this would be like a very fast hash table
18:27:34 <AnMaster> and you would have no collision
18:27:55 <AnMaster> you would probably have to use some fallback storage if things grow too large
18:28:35 <AnMaster> and you could hardwire a bit around 0,0 in a possibly cheaper way (smaller constant I guess)
18:28:58 <ais523> you don't need content-addressability, surely?
18:29:06 <ais523> just regular addressability would effectively work
18:29:07 <AnMaster> ais523, for doing a sparse funge space
18:29:09 <ais523> ah, ok
18:29:20 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm talking about b98 not b93
18:30:23 <AnMaster> ais523, and you need CAM because you can't have a 1:1 mapping due to 2^32*2^32 being unfeasible, thus pigeonhole principle.
18:31:20 <AnMaster> In fact I think a befunge93 in VHDL would be interesting. Befunge98 while wonderful to dream about is probably infeasible to ever run on a FPGA or such.
18:31:29 <AnMaster> now I wonder if VHDL can implement CAM...
18:32:05 <AnMaster> ais523, you should implement befunge93 in VHDL ;P
18:32:13 <AnMaster> unless someone has done this
18:32:21 <ais523> I haven't
18:38:50 <fizzie> We thought briefly about a Befunge coprocessor for the computer architecture practicals course (the main assignment is to design a mips-like cpu, but you get extra points for a coprocessor or simulatable vhdl), but that never went anywhere.
18:39:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh
18:40:56 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_associative_memory <-- interesting
18:45:31 <fizzie> Never going to make a breakthrough with the acronym HAM. But still better than SPAM, I guess.
18:46:09 <AnMaster> heh
18:48:14 * pikhq wishes there were more Unefunge programs
18:48:29 <pikhq> As Unefunge is *so* much easier to handle.
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18:48:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, you don't like a challenge?
18:49:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sparse 2d arrays give me a headache.
18:49:13 <Deewiant> Try 3D!
18:49:20 <pikhq> Deewiant: OW
18:49:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh? Try a AABBs
18:49:22 <Deewiant> :-D
18:49:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, or quadtrees
18:49:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Which is a... What?
18:49:36 <AnMaster> or hash tables
18:50:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, Deewiant can explain it. It is what CCBI uses. cfunge in practise uses a single one for the area near 0,0 and hash for the rest
18:59:16 <oerjan> strongly parallel associative memory
19:00:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, ?
19:00:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, is it a pun? Or something actually relevant?
19:00:45 <oerjan> yes
19:00:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, both?
19:01:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, explain what you mean though
19:01:04 * oerjan whistles innocently
19:02:19 <oerjan> in which we deduce that AnMaster's short term memory _and_ irc backscroll are shorter than 15 minutes
19:03:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't get what the "strongly" comes from
19:03:33 <AnMaster> that is the issue
19:05:38 <oerjan> hint: fizzie
19:06:16 <AnMaster> oh that
19:06:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, far fetched
19:06:37 <oerjan> yes, 15 minutes is so far
19:06:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, no in logical jump
19:07:14 <oerjan> no it wasn't, it was entirely obvious
19:07:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, I disagree
19:07:32 <oerjan> 19:40 AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_associative_memory
19:07:32 <oerjan> <-- interesting
19:07:32 <oerjan> 19:45 fizzie> Never going to make a breakthrough with the acronym HAM. But
19:07:32 <oerjan> still better than SPAM, I guess.
19:07:55 <oerjan> this _had_ to be the one time irssi _didn't_ join lines
19:08:47 <oerjan> (what the heck is the point with joining lines if it doesn't do it for lines copied from _itself_?
19:08:50 <oerjan> )
19:09:47 <oerjan> anyway, i claim the logical jump from that to be quite tiny.
19:11:24 <AnMaster> and I claim it is large
19:14:31 <oerjan> it would have been better if there were something actually called strongly parallel associative memory, anyway
19:16:07 <oerjan> spam associative memory turns up nothing relevant :(
19:16:39 <oerjan> it's like people were actively avoiding the acronym, or something :/
19:24:39 <fizzie> Buy a few more gobs of SPAM for you server, it'll increase throughput.
19:25:10 <oerjan> i hear most throughput is SPAM these days.
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19:41:46 * pikhq grabs GCC 4.5, shall play with this here "link-time optimiser"
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20:56:06 <olsner> I foresee an underwhelmed pikhq
21:01:05 <pikhq> Oh, right, gold still sucks ass.
21:01:06 <pikhq> That's right.
21:01:33 <pikhq> Better things to do with my time AWAY!
21:01:51 <pikhq> Hmm. "Better things"...
21:10:00 <oerjan> hm
21:10:22 <oerjan> (1) annoying: they're cutting off the water in 5 mins because of a leak
21:12:04 <oerjan> (2) awesome: they apparently sent a text message warning to the cell phones of everyone in the neighborhood
21:15:23 <oerjan> (3) apparently we may expect volcanic ash raining down here tomorrow
21:15:31 <olsner> did (2) result in a denial-of-service attack bringing down the cell network?
21:15:57 <oerjan> i would doubt that
21:16:05 <oerjan> after all, the message arrived
21:16:08 <fizzie> Nature strikes back.
21:16:28 <fizzie> Expect a rain of fire and brimstone.
21:16:38 <oerjan> (and most of norway)
21:17:13 <oerjan> parts of britain too, perhaps
21:17:35 <oerjan> map: http://www.dagbladet.no/2010/04/14/nyheter/innenriks/aske/flytrafikk/11282382/
21:18:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, is 4.5 released?
21:19:13 <AnMaster> <oerjan> (3) apparently we may expect volcanic ash raining down here tomorrow <-- what?
21:19:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: see the link
21:19:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about Sweden?
21:20:00 <oerjan> well the red region barely touches sweden
21:20:05 <fizzie> We don't get any. :(
21:20:15 <AnMaster> and I'm out of the green area
21:20:19 <oerjan> the green is no-fly area
21:20:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, what does the colours mean?
21:20:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, be sure to take some photos if it happens
21:20:48 <oerjan> or rather height of ashes (prognosis 12 pm tomorrow)
21:21:00 <oerjan> i don't have a camera to use
21:21:54 <AnMaster> "Kan også ramme sør" <-- I end up parsing this as "can also ram wounds" which seems wrong
21:21:59 <oerjan> red: 0 - 20000 feet, green 20000 - 35000 feet, blue 35000 - 50000
21:22:05 <oerjan> sør = south
21:22:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, and the "ramme"?
21:22:16 <oerjan> hit
21:22:26 <AnMaster> ah
21:22:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, "sannsynlighet"?
21:22:38 <oerjan> probability
21:23:11 <AnMaster> heh
21:23:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, Eyjafjallajökull? Or is that Islandic?
21:24:31 <oerjan> yes
21:24:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, "akutt flomfare" <-- ?
21:24:42 <oerjan> it's a glacier afaik
21:24:52 <oerjan> acute flood danger
21:25:03 <oerjan> well not sure about acute
21:25:08 <oerjan> `define acute
21:25:21 <HackEgo> * having or experiencing a rapid onset and short but severe course; "acute appendicitis"; "the acute phase of the illness"; "acute patients" \ * extremely sharp or intense; "acute pain"; "felt acute annoyance"; "intense itching and burning" \ * having or demonstrating ability to recognize or draw fine distinctions;
21:25:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, sv:akut?
21:25:27 <fizzie> At least some other jökulls are glaciers.
21:25:42 <oerjan> i think that's what jökull means
21:25:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, so it wasn't flamedanger?
21:25:49 <AnMaster> :/
21:26:03 <oerjan> the volcano is rather far from norway :D
21:26:08 <AnMaster> flom fare meaning flame danger rather than flood danger would have been nicer
21:26:22 <oerjan> you'd expect the ashes to have cooled down quite a bit ;)
21:26:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure but that was about Iceland as far as I can tell
21:26:31 <oerjan> oh right
21:26:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, "Alle veier inn til området rundt 120 kilometer øst for hovedstaden Reykjavik er stengt etter at smeltevann fra isen skaper akutt flomfare."
21:26:47 <oerjan> yeah it was flood because of the glacier melting
21:27:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, I mean, wetness isn't the first thing I think of when hearing about volcanos
21:27:19 <AnMaster> <oerjan> i don't have a camera to use <-- what about your mobile phone?
21:27:36 <oerjan> it's 8 years old, no camera :D
21:27:39 <fizzie> Curiously, en:glacier is fi:jäätikkö, not so far off. Not that it's likely to be related. (fi:jää = en:ice.)
21:27:41 <AnMaster> heh
21:28:01 <AnMaster> glaciär in Swedish
21:28:14 <oerjan> no:isbre
21:28:24 <AnMaster> "Vulkansk aske er vanskelig å oppdage fra et fly"?
21:28:39 <oerjan> volcanic ashes are hard to discover from a plane
21:28:40 <Gregor> gi:osefloop
21:28:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah, not a fly then ;/
21:28:51 <oerjan> Gregor: wtf
21:28:56 <Gregor> gi == gibberish
21:29:04 <oerjan> gibber gibber
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21:29:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you cross wires on a microchip?
21:30:10 <oerjan> i bet ais523 knows (and is not here)
21:30:23 <Gregor> "Can you"? Of course. Generally the wire-crossing problem is avoided simply by (slightly) using the third dimension.
21:30:33 <AnMaster> http://www.svd.se/nyheter/utrikes/aska-fran-vulkan-stoppar-norgeflyg_4566955.svd <-- there too oerjan
21:31:28 <fizzie> jökull m (genitive singular jökuls, plural jökular) -- he's a very jökular fellow.
21:31:56 <oerjan> so true
21:32:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor: I was just wondering aloud if the construction methods of silicon chips allows crossing.
21:32:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't really know about that.
21:33:20 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: If you mean crossing without interfering, then yes, the build in layers. If you mean crossing as in connecting, then yes.
21:33:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, wut?
21:33:26 <Gregor> *they build
21:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor: OK.
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21:33:59 <Gregor> IRC: a great place to go to ask one question then quit.
21:34:05 <AnMaster> XD
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22:01:52 <augur> does the name Chris Barker sound familiar to anyone here?
22:01:58 <Oranjer> yes
22:02:03 <Oranjer> I'm from south carolina
22:02:10 <Oranjer> I believe he was in a plane crash here?
22:02:24 <Oranjer> or am I completely wrong
22:02:29 <augur> wrong chris barker :P
22:02:36 <Oranjer> ah, okay
22:02:43 <augur> chris barker as in Iota
22:02:56 <augur> and Jot
22:05:09 <Oranjer> nope
22:06:01 <augur> but you do know of Iota/Jot, yeah?
22:06:05 <pikhq> Ah, that guy.
22:07:05 <augur> hes a linguistics prof at NYU
22:07:15 <augur> we're trying to get him to come give a talk at UMd
22:07:19 <augur> is he ever in here?
22:07:31 <pikhq> Don't think so.
22:07:35 <augur> shame
22:12:14 <Gregor> I think once you're a prof you're banned from #esoteric :P
22:12:43 <augur> aww
22:12:47 <augur> but he invented iota and jot!
22:13:01 <augur> WHILE he was a prof!
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