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00:44:54 <Sgeo|web> Our Data Structure class just went over inorder printing of sorted binary trees [print the tree on the left, print the value, print the tree on the right]. We did NOT go over recursion before this.
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01:55:59 <coppro> actually, nevermind. I realized that what I was about to say was wrong
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02:42:36 <Gregor> most is the WORST PAGER EVER.
02:45:53 <pikhq> Like more only more so?
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02:51:44 <Gregor> more is a better pager than most.
02:51:50 <Gregor> Friggin MORE is a better pager than most.
02:51:56 <Gregor> But less is so much better than either.
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05:49:02 <AnMaster> <Gregor> But less is so much better than either. <-- is there any "least"?
05:52:41 <Mathnerd314> hm, is http://www.frappr.com/esolang down?
05:56:56 <AnMaster> what is frappr? the map thingy?
05:59:11 <Mathnerd314> how esoteric does a language have to be to be discussable on #esoteric?
05:59:34 <AnMaster> can't say, and I'm leaving for university now
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08:22:23 <oerjan> <Gregor> But less is so much better than either.
08:22:45 <oerjan> i haven't tried that "either" pager you're speaking about.
08:23:02 <oerjan> (or "most", for that matter)
08:23:43 <oerjan> <Mathnerd314> how esoteric does a language have to be to be discussable on #esoteric?
08:23:58 <oerjan> not much. now if you mean to be _on topic_, on the other hand
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08:27:13 <oerjan> but we're only on topic about <estimate type="thin air">half the time</number>, and most of that seems to be befunge these days.
08:28:15 <oerjan> i guess it's too early again
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14:25:05 <Quadrescence> Mathnerd314: If it's as esoteric as Perl, then it's allowed.
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19:27:25 <pikhq> Hmm. And... I wrote another Brainfuck interpreter.
19:27:37 <pikhq> Except that it's much simpler than my previous attempt.
19:27:51 <pikhq> Also a bit faster.
19:27:55 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/BVTg
19:29:24 <pikhq> May not work on systems with odd pointer representations.
19:38:28 <pikhq> Also, clang appears to handle that better than GCC.
19:42:40 <AnMaster> <pikhq> May not work on systems with odd pointer representations. <-- ?
19:42:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm doing moderately odd pointer tricks.
19:43:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, well summary, I'm a bit too busy to read it. Have a deadline tomorrow
19:43:16 <pikhq> Note that I'm storing data inside of an array of pointers.
19:44:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: After the address for +, -, >, or < is the number that those should add to p or *p.
19:44:57 <oerjan> looks like that volcano ash spread further
19:45:08 <oerjan> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23824710-flights-grounded-as-ash-from-icelandic-volcano-closes-uk-airports.do
19:45:19 <pikhq> And after [ or ] is the offset in the array that it should jump to.
19:45:48 <pikhq> (upon entering interp, this is then just computed into a direct address)
19:47:29 <pikhq> (basic summary: I wrote 1/2 of a Forth)
19:50:33 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, some Finnish news-site said we'll get some ashfall too around 03am.
19:51:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, and did you get any ash rain?
19:51:40 <oerjan> i didn't notice anything, what with all the rain rain
19:52:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, gave up? Plan to do it later?
19:52:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, it would be bound to that.
19:53:16 <oerjan> or is volcanic ash basic
19:53:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, the particles are tiny, iirc between 3 microns and 2 mm. And mostly the smaller ones stay aloft longer
19:53:29 <fizzie> Oh, and my wife's father is due to fly back home Birmingham-Stockholm-Helsinki or some-such in a day or two, but now it's a bit uncertain as to how that'll go.
19:53:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, it contains sulphur and fluorine amongst other nasty things
19:54:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: probably good fertilizer :D
19:54:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, he could take the train
19:54:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, in fact various fluorine diseases have been connected with the local area of volcano eruptions before according to wikipedia.
19:56:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, killing some 50%+ of the lifestock during an eruption somewhere during 1800-1850 on Iceland
19:56:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, and lots of people both directly and indirectly
19:56:20 <oerjan> i've read about that one
19:56:29 <fizzie> The train takes quite a while; may be faster just to wait.
19:57:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh. He could take that English channel tunnel, then TGV, then whatever Germany have then X2000, then the Åland ferry
19:57:46 <oerjan> oh wait the one i recall was in the 1700s
19:58:03 <oerjan> in fact it was speculated it helped bring about the french revolution
19:58:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I misremembered the date of that one on Iceland. http://www.fof.se/tidning/2007/7/mystisk-vulkansjuka-far-sin-losning
19:59:05 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki#1783_eruption
20:00:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, there were several similar ones both before and after
20:01:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: apparently the english channel trains were quickly full-booked
20:01:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh. What about ferries then?
20:01:30 <fizzie> I hear Germany's trains aren't actually especially fast. They don't have any (or many) special high-speed lines, like France does for TGV.
20:01:48 <oerjan> i don't know, it was just a reddit comment
20:02:07 <fizzie> Didn't they get a train stuck in the chunnel not long ago, too? I seem to vaguely remember.
20:05:47 <oerjan> rings a vague bell, or maybe it was a fire
20:07:27 <fizzie> "Four Eurostar trains stuck in Channel tunnel" http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/dec/19/four-eurostar-trains-break-down
20:07:40 <fizzie> Maybe not quite so recent.
20:07:59 <oerjan> well it's less than a year ago, that's recent outside the internet :D
20:08:46 <fizzie> "The trains are believed to have failed as they left the cold air in northern France and entered the warmer air inside the tunnel." Yes, that sounds like the trains here, always broken due weather problems.
20:09:57 <oerjan> you'd think finland would be used to weather. but i shouldn't talk, this year has been scandalous for norwegian trains
20:11:07 <fizzie> Yes, that is the sentiment here too that they should know this stuff already.
20:13:30 <fizzie> There's been a lot of problems with the Pendolino tilting high-speed trains that were bought from Italy, but I guess it's reasonable they haven't considered real winters down there.
20:14:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, for Swedish trains too
20:14:39 <AnMaster> sure during a heavy snowstorm it may be delayed a bit. But it shouldn't take as long to clean things up after
20:16:44 <AnMaster> and sure, UK and France you could understand have problems with weather. But the Nordic countries? WTH
20:20:19 <AnMaster> http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271354037.png <-- heh
20:20:26 <oerjan> well i guess it's relative - _noone_ prepares for weather a little worse than usual, wherever they are
20:20:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, why couldn't you just build extremely redundant systems.
20:21:13 <AnMaster> I mean, how many roofs caved in in Norway this winter?
20:21:25 <AnMaster> quite a few of large buildings like warehouses and such in Sweden this winter
20:21:35 <AnMaster> except in north Sweden, hardly any there
20:21:51 <AnMaster> because they *expect* bad weather
20:22:17 <oerjan> although with roofs and snow it's probably often because of lousy snow removal
20:23:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh yeah that too. Did I mention I saw someone using a snow blower on a warehouse during the winter?
20:23:10 <AnMaster> oh and I have the perfect solution
20:23:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: very nice of that cloud to sweep southwards like that just to get moscow :D
20:24:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, build the roofs so you can drive full sized snow plows on them to clear away the snow. Then you won't *need* to clear away the snow because they will stand for about anything
20:25:36 <oerjan> well this is also about costs, of course, or rather no one using a penny/cent/øre more than they legally _have_ to, and choosing the lowest bidder
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20:27:11 * Sgeo|web WTFs at public <U> void inspect(U u){
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20:28:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes of course you would have to make this a law
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21:11:26 <oerjan> isn't it exactly equivalent to public void inspect(Object u){ or similar, since the code inside cannot possibly use anything that doesn't apply to all objects?
21:13:18 <oerjan> (assuming i recall right that <U> is generics or something like that, i'm not sure what language that is)
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21:16:14 <oerjan> the equivalent would be inspect :: a -> IO () in haskell, which _cannot_ possibly use anything specific to the argument type
21:16:23 <oerjan> (for the type declaration)
21:17:11 <oerjan> although with object-oriented languages and reflection that no longer holds - but then you could still use just Object i think
21:17:22 <pikhq> Modulo EVIL stuff.
21:17:29 <oerjan> this all from my vague half-understanding of java
21:18:01 <oerjan> pikhq: what was that in reference to?
21:18:21 <pikhq> oerjan: unsafeCoerce and hope it doesn't break.
21:18:31 <pikhq> for "inspect :: a->IO ()"
21:19:19 <oerjan> well but that is sort of internal isn't it, not haskell proper
21:19:41 <oerjan> anything even slightly portable _would_ break unless you knew the type
21:20:05 <pikhq> unsafeCoerce can be *done* with Haskell proper, if you include the FFI addendum.
21:20:47 <oerjan> well still on the break thing. i assume the public <U> thing above is meant not to break...
21:20:49 <pikhq> (unsafePerformIO is "real" Haskell you know)
21:21:03 <pikhq> Yeah, probably not.
21:21:23 <pikhq> *Oh*. That inspect function can also take values that aren't Objects.
21:21:34 <pikhq> (Java has a small handful of unboxed types)
21:21:34 <oerjan> i guess if you knew it was ghc you could somehow get at least to the GC information...
21:22:20 <oerjan> um isn't that just auto-conversion to Object, anyway? type erasure etc.
21:23:35 <oerjan> my understanding of generics in Java is not great though, the time i read a java tutorial was before they were added
21:24:16 <oerjan> and i ran out of steam before writing any actual programs
21:24:30 * Sgeo|web just hates the location of the <U> thing
21:25:55 <oerjan> well it is the logical place to place the <U>, i think
21:26:13 <oerjan> everything after is under its scope
21:30:57 * Sgeo|web is somewhat used to inspect<U>(U u)
21:38:57 <oerjan> i'm always right. also don't eat icecream, it's poisonous.
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21:45:20 <Susan> Would the author of Mycology be on here today?
21:45:34 <ais523> Deewiant: are you around?
21:46:03 <Susan> I have a quick question, on the fail of Rc/Funge-98. Is the one in the y command related to the form feed problem?
21:47:12 <Susan> I read through the official spec and it does not mention if the form feed should be just ignored on Befunge? or should it actually be loaded to fungespace and the x coordinate increased?
21:47:16 <Sgeo|web> Today is the last day for a while that I will be without Internet access for any significant length of time
21:47:53 <ais523> Susan: my guess would be to put a literal formfeed into the fungespace
21:47:56 <pikhq> Susan: If it's none of "\n", "\r\n", or "\r", it should be loaded into the Fungespace.
21:47:57 <ais523> because it isn't space, nor newline
21:47:57 <Deewiant> Susan: The general understanding is that it's analogous to the way newlines are stated to work in Unefunge
21:48:29 <Susan> Ok, I will try loading it into fungespace and see if that removes the error.
21:49:23 <Deewiant> Mycology is only fussed when it's treated as something that seems to mess up later space: i.e. EOL or EOF
21:50:15 <Deewiant> (I think Rc/Funge-98 currently starts loading things into higher z-coordinates, even though other planes shouldn't really exist in Befunge)
21:51:13 <Deewiant> Hmm. I wonder if I've actually misthought how form feeds should behave.
21:51:34 <Deewiant> But then, if what I'm thinking now is correct, every interpreter does it wrong.
21:52:30 <Deewiant> No, even what I'm thinking now leads to the same behaviour.
21:53:26 <Deewiant> Susan: In Unefunge, newlines are treated as appending the next line to the previous: "foo\nbar" becomes "foobar". Analogously, in Befunge, form feeds should be treated as appending the two planes together: "foo\nbar\fbaz" becomes "foo\nbarbaz". I.e. they are ignored.
21:55:01 <ais523> that's a "should be" not "is", though
21:55:11 <ais523> it's not unknown for a spec to be internally non-orthogonal
21:55:16 <ais523> and befunge is full of that sort of thing
21:55:33 <Susan> Ok, at least this gives me an idea of what it should do.
21:55:39 <Deewiant> Mostly because the spec is poorly written, though :-P
21:55:42 <Susan> Now to fix it! lol
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21:56:00 <Deewiant> Susan: Are you currently handling Rc/Funge-98 development?
21:56:14 <pikhq> Funge-98 is at least better-specified than Funge-93.
21:56:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fun fact: -O3 breaks cfunge on gcc-4.5
21:56:51 <Susan> From looking at the code it looks like Rc/Funge-98 IS increasing z on the form feed, even in Befunge mode.
21:57:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, works just fine on 4.3 and 4.4
21:57:10 <Deewiant> Right, that was suspected (and confirmed by somebody, AnMaster maybe)
21:57:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes I remember testing it
21:57:25 <pikhq> Good chunks of the logic in my Funge-93 interpreter are just undefined behavior. :P
21:57:29 <Susan> I can confirm it as well. I have the code right in front of me.
21:57:47 <Susan> Susan = current maintainer of Rc/Funge-98.
21:58:37 <Susan> Um, to put this as delicate as possible I guess, She decided to end her pain.
21:59:34 <Susan> For the past 20 some odd years, yes.
21:59:46 <AnMaster> and damn, I thought we talked him(???) out of it
22:00:16 <Susan> Mike was born intersexed and altered at birth to be a boy.
22:00:35 <Susan> About his teenage years he decided that he was not a he and his parents made a mistake.
22:01:02 <Susan> And transitioned in his early twenties to female.
22:02:04 <Susan> Hillary, as she renamed herself, could only socially transition. The alterations made at birth prevented a physical transition.
22:02:58 <Susan> In the end the pain of having an incongruous body drove her mad.
22:03:45 <Susan> For about the past couple years she was in very severe depression and refused all help, even mine.
22:04:33 <AnMaster> Susan, so lets leave this sad subject, since there isn't anything we can do now about it. I wonder how much interest you have in esolangs. It would be somewhat sad if you just did it because of err, her. Compared to actually being interested in befunge.
22:05:22 <Susan> Up until Hillary gave me Rc/Funge-98 I had never heard of esoteric languages. My first exposure was her program.
22:05:45 <Susan> After playing around with her interpreter, I must say that I am really fascinated.
22:06:44 <pikhq> Very well then. :)
22:07:14 <Susan> I will have to admit that at this point I am on the learning curve.
22:08:24 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's not unknown for a spec to be internally non-orthogonal <-- that made me think about a funge with non-orthogonal vectors for defining funge space
22:08:33 <AnMaster> it could have some quite interesting properties perhaps
22:09:01 <ais523> deep down, I'm hoping that this is just epic trolling rather than an actual suicide
22:09:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well, I doubt it is actually true though
22:09:27 <AnMaster> I would call it most likely wishful thinking
22:09:58 <Susan> I am sorry to say Ais523 that the person that you knew as Mike Riley is gone.
22:10:41 <ais523> ouch; well, as you're related to him (or at least live in the same house), my condolences
22:11:14 <AnMaster> (oh ais523 is the maintainer of C-INTERCAL btw. INTERCAL is another esolang. And arguably a _lot_ more confusing.)
22:11:27 <Susan> No, I was not related to her. Just a friend.
22:12:06 <AnMaster> A closer friend than we were presumably though.
22:12:28 <AnMaster> eh, I messed up the grammar there I think.
22:12:39 <ais523> no, I think that's correct English
22:12:41 <Susan> I knew her for about 15 years. Yes, close enough that she confided her secret to me.
22:12:47 <ais523> although a comma before though would be more usual
22:14:29 <ais523> AnMaster: I was missing quotes in /my/ comment, so I corrected it
22:14:51 <AnMaster> ais523, it was a bit confusing though. A sed expression might have made it clearer
22:15:00 <AnMaster> (Strange he used the name Mike Riley then on IRC and such. I guess we will never know why.)
22:15:17 <ais523> hmm, I use the name ais523 online, though; it's not so weird to use a different name
22:15:35 <AnMaster> well sure. You think this is my name? ;P
22:15:44 <Deewiant> Well, if it's an identity you'd rather reject, you might be more likely to not use it
22:15:50 <Susan> She started her programming career while still a guy. Since she operated a business writing software she continued to use that name professionally when there would be no face to face contact.
22:15:52 <ais523> no, you're called arvid
22:15:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah that is what I meant
22:16:05 <AnMaster> ais523, correct but I usually tend to use upper case A there
22:17:43 <Susan> All of her credentials were also under Mike Riley, so she was kind of stuck with it.
22:18:07 <AnMaster> you mean, ID papers and such? (Note I'm not a native English speaker)
22:18:23 <AnMaster> (but I thought you could do a legal name change)
22:18:37 <ais523> AnMaster: "credentials" has two meanings, either a generalisation of "username/password", or a generalisation of "degrees and qualifications"
22:18:53 <Susan> Her degree was under Mike Riley. All of her early software was written under that name, and so to maintain her references she needed to keep the name for her software ventures.
22:18:59 <AnMaster> ais523, well the former I know about, but that didn't seem to apply
22:19:39 <Susan> All of her other paperwork were changed, drivers license, utility bills and such.
22:20:31 <AnMaster> btw, I don't think I ever asked why it was called _RC_ in RC/Funge.
22:20:43 <AnMaster> any idea? (or Deewiant perhaps)
22:21:13 <Deewiant> I think I may've known but don't remember.
22:21:25 <Susan> Her software company was called RCS for Riley Computer Software. I can only imagine that she took the first two letters and attached it to the name of the program. Most of her software was prepended with RC/.
22:22:03 <AnMaster> Susan, it isn't really a company style of software though. I can't imagine anyone selling a funge interpreter. XD
22:22:04 <Deewiant> The handprint of Rc/Funge-98 is also "RCSU".
22:22:31 <ais523> AnMaster: well, isn't cats' eye a company?
22:22:42 <ais523> that does serious stuff as well as all the esolangs?
22:22:45 <Susan> She wrote a lot of software also that she released into the public domain.
22:22:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know, who knows.
22:23:13 <AnMaster> ais523, it could be just a parody or something?
22:23:21 <Susan> Not all the software she wrote was sold.
22:23:37 <ais523> AnMaster: I hear that if you're in a serious programming job, you need to do frivolous things too to stay sane
22:23:45 <Deewiant> Random mood-lightener, something by a Swedish comedian (speaks English half the time) that probably mainly Finns will find funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZB77xpu9MY
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22:24:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I can imagine. Which is one reason I see to aim for an academic job.
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22:24:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That's not a "serious programming job"? :-P
22:24:57 <Deewiant> Because the topic is Finnish universities.
22:25:21 <Deewiant> I don't know, maybe it's otherwise funny enough as well, I wouldn't know :-P
22:25:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends. Computer science? Then no
22:25:59 <Deewiant> Depends on how seriously you do it I imagine
22:26:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I find that movie rather offensive...
22:27:12 <Deewiant> (Also, it's probably intentional)
22:27:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ? How can it not be? Did you listen to the Swedish/English or read the text? I can't say if the text is a literal translation
22:27:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but it seems to keep the offensive bits mostly out of the English parts
22:27:57 <Deewiant> Yes, I listened and read, the text is fairly accurate
22:28:07 <Deewiant> And yes, he uses Swedish swear words :-P
22:28:37 <Deewiant> Well, not swear words, but profane vocabulary
22:29:11 <Deewiant> Are you offended by profanity?
22:30:07 <ais523> I'm offended by profanity without a reason
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22:31:03 <Deewiant> In this case, the reason is the comedy
22:31:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I find it confusing also. I guess only Finns get the references in there
22:31:29 <Deewiant> But of course, one can disagree with that as well
22:31:42 <AnMaster> yeah I didn't really find it funny.
22:32:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yeah, that's why I warned about it :-P
22:34:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what are the references and where does the profanity come into it?
22:35:02 <Deewiant> Well, the profanity I think just fits the theme and the mood
22:39:38 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Funge-98 is at least better-specified than Funge-93. <-- sure, but there is more of funge-98, resulting in more of the less well speccced parts than one would have hoped for.
22:40:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: My wife's brothers are quite some fans of the comedian in question, or at least the Finlandssvenskt Näringsliv thing; had seen that clip earlier.
22:40:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: They speak Swedish at home, though, so maybe they can relate.
22:41:01 <Deewiant> Hmm, interesting capitalization there.
22:41:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw what is that "pappren inne - sol i sinnet" about?
22:41:53 <Deewiant> Capitalizing "heh" always seems wrong to me and I guess I then saw "maybe" as starting the sentence
22:43:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well just that: apply to the university and keep the coming good times in mind, or something to that effect
22:44:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it some slogan used over there or something?
22:45:01 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure it's specific to that comedy short
22:45:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there seems to be more "Finlandssvenskt näringsliv" parodies from him at youtube
22:45:58 <oerjan> sol ute, sol inne, sol i hjertet, sol i sinnet
22:48:49 <oerjan> well, maybe not just now
22:49:09 <Deewiant> I'd expect not at this time of day
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22:53:44 <oerjan> it seems like Ny-Ålesund on Svalbard won't have the sun set completely from tomorrow
22:54:27 <AnMaster> olsner, don't listen to them. Yes there is sol i Norge. Yes it is the wrong time for it. Yes you can think of the dreadful consequences yourself. (If not: end of world and so on)
22:54:47 <olsner> the world has already ended in norway? the end is near!
22:54:55 <oerjan> if i understand what "upper edge" means at http://www.yr.no/informasjon/1.6629345
22:54:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, I didn't remember we passed vårdagjämning yet
22:55:11 <AnMaster> or whatever it is called in English
22:55:13 <oerjan> that's nearly a month ago now
22:55:21 <olsner> feels like winter ended just a couple of days ago
22:56:21 <AnMaster> well a bit more than that, a week and a half ago or so
22:56:53 <oerjan> snow forecast here in the next couple days
22:57:18 <oerjan> probably just a little bit i guess
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