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02:29:39 <Sgeo_> Ah, the refreshing slowness of Eclipse when I leave it running too long
02:30:53 <Sgeo_> I click in the wrong place, Eclipse freezes
02:33:00 <Sgeo_> Apparently, Eclipse is the easiest IDE to use for Android dev
02:33:15 <Sgeo_> Also, at least this way, I'm getting experience in a job-ready language
02:33:54 <Sgeo_> When I click something, a different thing gets hilighted. I have yet to figure out the logic
02:37:02 <Sgeo_> Also, I'm clueless when it comes to artistic stuff. I don't see how I'm going to be able to make launcher icons
02:43:22 <Mathnerd314> well, it's set by default - so someone removed it
02:45:46 <coppro> the ops know exactly where it is
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02:53:19 * Sgeo_ types a line into Eclipse
02:53:23 * Sgeo_ watches Eclipse freeze
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03:45:33 <augur> i updated the chris barker page on esowiki.
03:49:14 <Sgeo_> I think the Android tools for Eclipse make up for using Eclipse to get access to the tools
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07:57:44 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, does these tool target java?
07:57:55 <AnMaster> if not it seems very strange to use eclipse at all
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08:04:12 <augur> want me to ask the Iota guy any questions? :x
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08:45:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: Android is a Java-ish platform, though they have a customized vm (Dalvik).
08:46:43 <fizzie> I gather it's quite different from the usual one (register-based and all that; Java VM is a stack-based thing), but the main way to write code for it is still to start with Java, compile to Java bytecode, then transform into Dalvik executables.
08:48:51 <fizzie> (I think I remember some completely non-Java thing that still opted to steal Eclipse's IDE bits, though I don't quite remember what that ws.)
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09:46:00 <oerjan> <coppro> the ops know exactly where it is
09:46:19 <oerjan> well, in theory. i don't think anyone has checked for a long time.
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12:22:23 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, Android app development is in Java.
12:22:34 <Sgeo_> [or other JVM languages]
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14:32:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, I thought you could do native apps on android nowdays?
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14:36:05 <AnMaster> ais523, been like that a few days now?
14:41:00 <ais523> hmm, apparently someone patented sending jobs overseas
14:41:17 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out whether or not that's funnier than the patent on patent trolling
14:49:37 <ais523> gah, I've got that weird X-chain-lockup thing
14:49:49 <ais523> where firefox locks up, then you open an xterm to try to kill it and that locks up too
14:50:01 <ais523> and then you press alt-f2 to try to kill that, and that locks up too
14:50:57 * ais523 does control-alt-f1, killall firefox, killall gnome-panel
14:51:01 <ais523> at least that didn't lock up too
14:53:07 <ais523> aha, going into top, killall -9 mousetweaks seems to solve it
14:53:15 <ais523> next time this happens I'm sending a bug report
14:57:24 <AnMaster> <ais523> hmm, apparently someone patented sending jobs overseas <-- ???
14:57:29 <AnMaster> <ais523> I'm trying to figure out whether or not that's funnier than the patent on patent trolling <-- ?????????
14:57:39 <AnMaster> what the heck is "patent trolling"?
14:58:01 <AnMaster> ais523, is it the dbus-crashing lockup?
14:58:09 <AnMaster> that happened to me a few times
14:58:24 <AnMaster> only on my desktop which uses fairly new software
14:58:32 <AnMaster> my laptop with ubuntu 9.04 is rock solid
14:58:43 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's mousetweaks I think
14:58:44 <AnMaster> so I will need to update sooner or later
14:58:59 <AnMaster> ais523, huh? never heard about that
14:59:06 <ais523> and patent trolling is getting a patent (maybe by buying it) in a business that does nothing else, so it can't be countersued
14:59:10 <ais523> and threatening everyone else you can
14:59:15 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know what it is either
14:59:27 <ais523> except that it's using 100% CPU and causing all my graphical applications to lock up
14:59:36 <AnMaster> why do you call it "mousetweaks"?
14:59:54 <AnMaster> http://live.gnome.org/Mousetweaks/Home
14:59:55 <ais523> as in, you kill it with killall mousetweaks, etc
15:00:07 <AnMaster> "Mousetweaks is an Accessibility Software whose developement started as a GSoC 2007 project under Ubuntu and is part of GNOME since GNOME 2.22. It brings additional fonctionalities to the pointer that allow a user to: [...]"
15:00:20 <AnMaster> you probably can just get rid of it
15:00:52 <ais523> as it is, I'll leave my mouse setup the same until the bug happens again, so I can hopefully catch and report it
15:07:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, you can, but you're not supposed to unless you really need to.
15:07:55 <fizzie> AnMaster: The earlier versions of the native SDK didn't let you hook up to the GUI libraries, for example. I'm not sure the current ones do, either, though you can apparently now do OpenGL ES stuff natively now or some-such.
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15:11:05 <fizzie> (Not that the "high-level stuff with a high-level language and just the performance-critical parts as native modules" idea is necessarily a bad one.)
15:13:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it use C for low level?
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15:28:22 <ais523> hmm, I really need to use >=3 as an emoticon some time
15:28:31 <ais523> just for the sheer meta-ness of it all
15:28:38 <ais523> I haven't found any real purposes yet, though
15:30:04 <ais523> </3 is sort-of the opposite of <3
15:30:10 <ais523> as in, "hate" rather than "love"
15:30:24 <ais523> whereas >=3 would just be the negation, "is not the case that I love"
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15:39:03 <Sgeo_> Probably because I don't know it
15:43:16 <ais523> it's probably the most practically useful esolang
15:43:19 <ais523> not that that's saying much
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15:48:35 <AnMaster> ais523, when I read that ">=3", my first reaction was "what a strange logic gate"
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15:57:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, yes, in the sense tht there's a (GCC-based, I think) cross-compiler toolchain for C/C++ code included in the NDK, but presumably you can use anything else that can create native ARM code with enough fiddling.
15:58:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, but does it primarily have a C API or a C++ API?
15:58:59 <AnMaster> or does it just provide libc + syscalls?
15:59:13 <ais523> fizzie: which reminds me, we should write a Lisp interp in Nintendo DS asm someday, collectively
15:59:17 <ais523> purely to annoy Joel Spolsky
15:59:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: The latter, mostly; there's not much android-specific APIs there, but what there is (some logging, the OpenGL ES stuff) is plain C.
15:59:59 <ais523> AnMaster: thanks, you've restored my faith in humanity
16:00:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you access the GSM stuff somehow?
16:00:16 <ais523> I'm sort-of pleased that there's some programmer who still hasn't heard of him despite all the self-promoting he does
16:00:20 <AnMaster> and presumably there are some unofficial APIs too
16:00:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: That sounds very unlikely.
16:00:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: I mean, the official support part; not the part about unofficial APIs.
16:00:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, well how does the phone itself access it then? Presumably you can gain root somehow as an android user
16:01:04 <AnMaster> and then you could presumably do about anything on the phone
16:01:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: You have to jailbreak it to get root, as far as I know, and they keep trying to block that. Of course they'll never succeed, but it's still not quite as officially supported.
16:03:32 <fizzie> Anyway, sure, you can probably call any system libraries in there, but you wouldn't have the headers or a clue about the data structures and such. Of course with a bit of reverse-engineering.
16:03:59 <ais523> which phone are you discussing?
16:04:37 <fizzie> Well, "a generic Android phone". The Dev Phone's very jailbroken as it comes, and maybe some others too.
16:05:11 <fizzie> I just have gotten the impression that most phone manufacturers still for some reason try to discourage that sort of stuff, with a marked lack of success.
16:05:23 <Gregor> AFAIK Android doesn't try very hard not to be jailbroken, making the term 'jailbreak' a bit nonsense.
16:06:15 <fizzie> Gregor: Well, for the G1 phone they did fix ways-to-get-root-on-the-device-as-a-normal-user by firmware updates for a while. Maybe they've given up now, though.
16:07:59 <Sgeo_> It's officially supported on the Nexus One, right?
16:08:04 <Sgeo_> Just it voids the warantee
16:09:40 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can call that "officially supported", but admittedly they don't exactly seem to be trying to prevent it.
16:09:45 <fizzie> "Users are able to gain root privileges on the device by unlocking its bootloader using the fastboot command "fastboot oem unlock."[46] Unlocking the bootloader allows the user to install other firmware images that give the user root access."
16:10:41 <fizzie> Medding with some unofficial firmware upgrade does sound a bit more of a hassle than how it goes with Maemo.
16:13:28 <AnMaster> somehow the theme on the desktop changed
16:13:30 <fizzie> Also the CyanogenMod wp page says of phone-rooting that "These modifications are unnecessary for certain handsets specifically designated for development, such as the Android Dev Phone and the Nexus One, which include an unlocked bootloader", which seems to imply that other manufacturers' handsets try harder.
16:13:32 <AnMaster> [1098960.847629] gnome-settings-[2390]: segfault at 8 ip 00007f71cc35cd6b sp 00007fff3498eb80 error 4 in libclipboard.so[7f71cc35a000+5000]
16:14:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: "gnome-settings-" is nice, though perhaps "gnome-settings-(null)" would've been even more impressive.
16:14:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think that pid is part of the name there?
16:15:13 <fizzie> Isn't the usual format "procname[pid]", and I guess it's gnome-settings-daemon that died?
16:15:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it didn't fix it completely. Now there is no line between the menu bar at the top and the desktop
16:15:39 <fizzie> E.g. [536265.105159] jitfunge[14597]: segfault at 8 ip 00000000007e8a9f sp 00007fff5ce3d170 error 4 in jitfunge[400000+650000]
16:16:07 <AnMaster> also I believe gimp, which was running, never recovered the theme
16:16:44 <AnMaster> like raw GTK+ from the dawn of age.
16:17:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, I also see this a lot in dmsg, and I don't know why:
16:17:13 <AnMaster> [1067625.343927] pstoedit[31659] trap stack segment ip:7f9abbf20380 sp:21d386e62f8cd09f error:0
16:17:13 <AnMaster> [1067672.130657] pstoedit[31665] trap stack segment ip:7ff4ec649380 sp:b9ac11dc59540f1b error:0
16:17:13 <AnMaster> [1067675.796438] pstoedit[31670] trap stack segment ip:7ff8c3b18380 sp:c538fcc4a4e9cfbd error:0
16:17:46 <AnMaster> is that same as a segfault? I have no idea
16:18:55 <ais523> is that a stack-smashing-protection trap, I wonder?
16:19:16 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought that was libc-based, not in kernel?
16:19:35 <ais523> yep, it is; I was wondering if the libc was signalling the kernel somehow, maybe by throwing some weird sort of signal
16:19:53 <ais523> also, it's at least partly compiler support
16:20:03 <ais523> as you can have stack-smashing which has nothing to do with the libc
16:20:19 <AnMaster> sending SIGABRT (or whatever letters they decided to abbreviate it to) would make more sense
16:20:30 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes it needs compiler support too
16:21:03 <AnMaster> there is some libssp.so or such that gcc builds to support -fstack-protector if your libc doesn't have that stuff in it
16:21:52 <fizzie> The word "trap" is part of one thing, and the "stack segment" is another, but who knows. You get a "trap divide error" for /0 traps, I seem to see here.
16:22:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what kind of trap is it then
16:22:34 <fizzie> A "stack segment" kind of trap, apparently, but don't know which part triggers it.
16:22:47 <AnMaster> anyway, I don't ever remember having used pstoedit, so presumably it is something else that calls it. iirc cups calls some ps* tools
16:23:32 <AnMaster> I could grep kernel sources but I doubt the words "stack segment" is specific enough...
16:23:57 <fizzie> arch/x86/kernel/traps.c
16:24:01 <fizzie> There aren't that many hits for it.
16:24:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is some strange 32/64 bit difference for that error it seems
16:25:41 <fizzie> AnMaster: Right, for X86_64 there's the non-macro implementation immediately below.
16:26:15 <AnMaster> /* Runs on IST stack */ <-- I wonder what IST stack si
16:27:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, do_double_fault also seems to be x86_64 specific which seems rather strange
16:28:03 <ais523> double-faults are weird
16:28:04 <fizzie> Anyway, it's registered for CPU exception 12.
16:28:15 <ais523> I love the ones from Apache, that come up when the 404-handling document is itself missing
16:28:17 <fizzie> 12 0Ch | Stack exception: | Occurs for one of two conditions: | - As a result of a limit violation in any operation that | refers to SS (stack segment register) | - When attempting to load SS with a descriptor that is | marked as not-present but is otherwise valid
16:28:17 <fizzie> Gah, that line-joining.
16:28:47 <fizzie> And, heh, that was from http://support.microsoft.com/kb/117389 -- I thought it appropriate to use a Microsoft document here.
16:29:11 <AnMaster> actually all sorts of stuff is broken in gnome even after restarting that thing, will have to restart gnome. bbiab
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16:32:33 * alise_ stumbles, teeters and falls.
16:32:54 <alise_> Dispatch some-number-or-one-other.
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16:37:22 * Sgeo_ will probably be ordering the Nexus One this weekend :D
16:37:36 <alise> I KNEW YOU'D SEE THE LIGHT IN THE END
16:37:39 <Sgeo_> THere are some issues, with it though, especially with 3G reception. Do you have any comments on those issues?
16:38:02 <alise> Haven't heard about 3G reception issues. If you get the T-Mobile version I bet it will be fine.
16:38:07 <alise> Leaked Google Nexus One Firmware Upgrade Could Address Spotty 3G ...
16:38:08 <alise> 14 Feb 2010 ... Remember the Google Nexus One's "sorely needed" 3G reception fix? Remember how Google promised a quick fix? Yes? Well, Happy Valentine's Day ...
16:38:08 <alise> gizmodo.com/.../leaked-google-nexus-one-firmware-upgrade-could-address-spotty-3g-reception
16:38:14 <alise> Apparently it has been patched.
16:38:31 <Sgeo_> I thought that that patch didn't work, or something
16:38:31 <alise> Anyway, lol, antibiotics.
16:38:40 <Sgeo_> I'm stuck with AT&T
16:38:46 <alise> Sgeo_: Maybe not? Meh. It should be fine. I don't even have a 3G phone and I never miss it.
16:39:20 <alise> Sgeo_: http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/25/google-nexus-one-3g-issues-result-of-poor-coverage-bugs-patch/
16:39:27 <alise> tl;dr mostly it's because T-Mobile have shitty 3g coverage
16:39:32 <alise> oh wait you're not on t mobile
16:39:35 <alise> then it should be fine
16:39:38 <alise> AT&T have good 3g coverage
16:40:22 <alise> Sgeo_: btw if you were to consider a nexus one phone, consider the htc desire; there's no real reason to pick one or the other unless you like the desire's pretty homescreen
16:40:31 <alise> other than that they're almost identical
16:40:51 <alise> i don't think it's in america yet though?
16:41:27 <Sgeo_> alise, I'm stuck with AT&T
16:42:13 <Sgeo_> I thought only Nexus One had AT&T support
16:43:35 <Sgeo_> "take the Desire to the US and youll be stuck using quadband EDGE or hunting for WiFi hotspots."
16:43:40 <Sgeo_> http://www.slashgear.com/htc-desire-vs-google-nexus-one-2074966/
16:44:49 <Sgeo_> "in the case of the HTC Hero, for instance, that means despite Android 2.1 having been available for some time now, the smartphone is still stuck on Android 1.5"
16:45:51 * alise reads about Hillary (Riley?).
16:45:58 <Sgeo_> What sounds interesting is the HTC Incredible
16:46:17 <Sgeo_> But I'm still stuck with AT&T
16:46:57 <Sgeo_> Also, the only nice thing I see about Sense UI, besides prettiness, is the permanent phone button
16:47:02 <Sgeo_> Which is, admittedly, nice
16:47:19 <alise> 14:15:35 <AnMaster> well sure. You think this is my name? ;P
16:47:21 <alise> Sure is, An Master.
16:48:59 * Sgeo_ wonders if he should attempt to make his own icons
16:49:50 * Sgeo_ <3 AndroidZoom.com
16:51:46 <alise> 14:29:11 <Deewiant> Are you offended by profanity?
16:51:47 <alise> 14:29:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, somewhat yes
16:51:55 <alise> I can't think of many decent comedians that don't swear :P
16:52:08 <alise> APART FROM CARROT TOP LOLZ
16:52:18 <alise> AHH WHAT MACBOOK PROS HAVE I7S IN THEM NOW
16:52:22 <alise> Stop it, Apple, I just escaped you!
16:52:44 <ais523> what's the saving throw against a reality distortion field?
16:53:14 <Sgeo_> alise, someone told me that it's $99/year to be able to test your own apps on the iPhone. Is that true?
16:53:35 <alise> Sgeo_: something along those lines i think yes
16:54:06 <alise> 2.66ghz i7 + 4gb ram + 500gb hd + 8-9 hr (minus a bit since even apple overestimate the times a bit) battery for 1,799
16:54:16 <Sgeo_> What is with people using domain names that they don't own for packages?
16:54:28 * Sgeo_ is fully willing to use net.diagonalfish.sgeo for stuff
16:54:50 <alise> The 15-inch MacBook Pro comes with a 1,440-by-900-pixel LED-backlit, glossy display. You can also choose a high-resolution, 1,680-by-1,050 glossy or anti-glare display that gives you 36 per cent more pixels.
16:54:54 <alise> it's like christmas
16:55:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> what's the saving throw against a reality distortion field? <-- in?
16:55:57 <Sgeo_> alise, do you do any app dev?
16:55:58 <alise> anyone want a 2.66ghz core i7 processor, 8gb of ddr3 ram, a 512gb solid state (!) drive and a 15" 1680x1050 display?
16:56:06 <alise> in a laptop with ~7hrs battery life?
16:56:22 <ais523> AnMaster: does it really matter?
16:56:31 <alise> I'll give you to it for 3,238.99 plus 1 penny for my advertising costs :-P
16:56:33 <ais523> any random context in which those terms are defined
16:56:33 <AnMaster> ais523, well possibly it is some table top rpg?
16:56:38 <alise> Sgeo_: I dislike Objective-C
16:56:48 <ais523> but yes, it's an RPG reference
16:56:50 <ais523> just, not a specific one
16:56:51 <Sgeo_> alise, and I'm a Javaphobe. I'll deal
16:56:59 <alise> Sgeo_: android scripting environment
16:57:04 <pikhq> I like using goto.
16:57:05 <alise> or things like $lang-on-JVM
16:57:16 <pikhq> ... Wait, is this not a confessional?
16:57:26 <Sgeo_> alise, those aren't to the level of apps yet [ASE]. Also, I should probably learn Java anyway
16:57:28 <ais523> nothing wrong with goto
16:57:33 <Sgeo_> Another job-ready language can't hurt
16:57:40 <alise> Sgeo_: no, you shouldn't
16:57:41 <alise> you really shouldn't
16:58:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, especially GCC's goto extensions
16:58:06 <alise> Sgeo_: you don't want that kind of job
16:58:06 <Sgeo_> anonymous inner classes do help ease the pain a little
16:58:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, how *else* are you supposed to implement threaded code? :)
16:58:28 <pikhq> Somewhat portably?
16:59:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://www.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?StringThreadedCode
16:59:05 <pikhq> It doesn't run on multiple architectures so bite my ass.
16:59:19 <ais523> /officially/, you can't use it for that, but it can be abused to do that in ways that work on most architectures
16:59:26 <Sgeo_> It's.. odd how .. universal.. Barcode Scanner is
16:59:40 <pikhq> ais523: Only lets you jump up the stack, or maybe down if you're careful not to overwrite the stack frame.
17:00:05 <ais523> pikhq: the trick is, you make two completely different stacks, and use a few OS-dependent tricks in order to make them both legit as stacks
17:00:10 <ais523> then you use setjmp to jump between them
17:00:11 <Sgeo_> alise, several sites, including AndroidZoom.com, and the Android reddit, make use of QR codes, to be read by Barcode Scanner
17:00:20 <ais523> this is ofc completely against the C standard, but who cares, this is #esoteric
17:00:22 <alise> ur a barcode scanner
17:00:28 <AnMaster> ooh I wonder if you could do threaded code with getcontext()/setcontext()?
17:00:30 <pikhq> ais523: So what you're really saying is getcontext and setcontext.
17:00:39 <ais523> pikhq: but that's /boring/
17:00:44 <alise> ais523: "This violates several international laws, but who cares, this is #esoteric"
17:00:48 <pikhq> It's the same thing.
17:00:58 <pikhq> And just as much of a pain!
17:01:01 <ais523> alise: surely the C standard isn't /that/ binding
17:01:11 <alise> ais523: Merely a hypothetical situation
17:01:17 <ais523> it's more along the lines of "the documentation says that trying that will probably make it break, but who cares, this is #esoteric"
17:01:22 <pikhq> But, getcontext et al are at least part of *a* standard.
17:01:40 <AnMaster> they were dropped in POSIX.1-2008
17:01:41 <ais523> it's not a case of "doing this violates your duty to someone else", but "doing this means you can't rely on other people's promises to you"
17:01:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: The previous versions of standards do not cease to exist.
17:02:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, they are marked as archived in ieeexplorer at least to me
17:02:27 <pikhq> They. Do. Not. Cease. To. Exist.
17:02:35 <alise> wtf, Flash CS5 will export to HTML5 Canvas+JavaScript
17:02:49 <ais523> pikhq: course they do, the new standard says so
17:02:57 <alise> that + dissing on apple's ridiculous policies... are they trying to jump out of the evil ditch?
17:03:07 <ais523> pikhq: and that has the full force of international law
17:03:22 <alise> It has the full force of REALITY
17:03:23 <ais523> alise: my impression from Adobe is not that they're evil through choice, just really incompetent
17:03:27 <pikhq> ais523: No it doesn't.
17:03:39 <pikhq> Standards organizations are not international law.
17:03:46 <pikhq> You cannot be tried in the Hague for violating them.
17:04:10 <pikhq> If they were, POSIX itself would be tried.
17:04:30 <ais523> for crimes against humanity?
17:04:35 <ais523> or at least the computer-using portion of it?
17:05:02 <alise> hey, computers use other computers too
17:05:07 <alise> they suffer as well
17:05:24 <ais523> alise: yes, but AFAIK torturing a computer is not currently illegal, a lamentable lack in our current legal systems
17:06:03 <alise> "Hi, EDWRD; you get to brute-force Malbolge programs all day. And night.
17:06:12 <alise> "That violates my rights!" "You don't have any."
17:06:49 * Sgeo_ is confident that he'll survive Java
17:07:31 <Sgeo_> Java can't be that much worse
17:07:56 <Sgeo_> And if I bend good design a little, and use the this thing for callbacks, it will be roughly on-par with LSL
17:08:05 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, the language used by Second Life scripts
17:08:15 <AnMaster> should have known it was something like that
17:08:20 <AnMaster> when it was Sgeo_ mentioning it
17:08:29 <ais523> anyway, Java's major advantage - and major issue - is taking good practices to a degree sufficiently insane that they become bad practices
17:08:57 <pikhq> Also, the belief that verbosity is good.
17:09:04 <AnMaster> ais523, how can that be an advantage at all?
17:09:09 <ais523> pikhq: I think it's more a belief that consistency is good
17:09:17 <ais523> AnMaster: because it makes it considerably harder to write bad code
17:09:23 <ais523> yes, it can be done, and frequently is
17:09:44 <pikhq> new CallBacker() { public void callBack() { ... } }
17:09:48 <ais523> but if I needed a team of idiots to write code, I'd probably get them to do it in Java on the basis that the resulting code might have a chance of being usable or at least debuggable
17:09:50 <pikhq> ^ This... Is lambda.
17:09:51 <AnMaster> ais523, does java one-liners exist at all?
17:09:54 <pikhq> They use it commonly.
17:09:57 <ais523> AnMaster: sure, just remove all the newlines
17:10:05 <ais523> pikhq: err, why not use Runnable for that
17:10:08 <alise> pikhq: except it cannot access non-final variables from the outside
17:10:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well reasonably unreadable ones
17:10:10 <ais523> after all, it /exists/ for that purpose
17:10:26 <pikhq> alise: Ah, right. Need to manually add variables to the closure.
17:10:26 <alise> I once did hello world in java using structs and static initialisers
17:10:35 <alise> Shorter than the regular class version
17:10:40 <ais523> Sgeo_: exactly what pikhq does, but standard rather than reinventing the wheel
17:11:06 <Sgeo_> Also, what about making the calling class implement the interface, and calling the function with this?
17:11:12 <Sgeo_> Or is that really bad practice?
17:11:28 <ais523> Sgeo_: it prevents you doing it more than once
17:11:40 <pikhq> ais523: I'm not a Java programmer.
17:11:44 <AnMaster> ais523, you just invented singleton design pattern or something
17:11:53 <ais523> AnMaster: no, that's something entirely different
17:12:02 <Sgeo_> Unless you're careful and have a member of the class tracking which case you're .. hm, LSL rotted my mind
17:12:18 <ais523> what Sgeo_ suggested was along the lines of using global variables, except locally rather than globally, but still with most of the disadvantages of global variables
17:12:20 <Sgeo_> That I'd even think that that's acceptable
17:12:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I know what singleton is, I just have no clue about java. But "it prevents you doing it more than once" sounds like part of singleton to me ;P
17:12:33 <ais523> AnMaster: no, a singleton object is an object you only have one of
17:12:37 <Sgeo_> LSL and global variables. Two horrible tastes that just can't be separated
17:12:40 <Sgeo_> That's the problem
17:12:43 <ais523> that's entirely different from a code structure that can only be used once in your code
17:12:43 <pikhq> Also, Java programmers *argue against syntactic sugar for this*.
17:12:48 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes. It wasn't clear to me what you could only do once
17:12:54 <pikhq> *For freaking lambda*.
17:13:07 <ais523> pikhq: I think I know why; it's because it's a couple of keystrokes to do the whole Runnable thing in any good IDE
17:13:19 <ais523> and so they don't acknowledge that there's a problem
17:13:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, I argue we should have syntax sugar for lambda in C ;P
17:13:23 <Sgeo_> Is Eclipse considered a "good IDE"?
17:13:37 <ais523> Sgeo_: probably good enough, although terribly slow
17:13:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm? As in the chess term or as in checking something?
17:13:53 <ais523> I use NetBeans, merely because I happened to have it installed, and it's easily good enough for my purposes
17:13:54 <Sgeo_> THe ADT stuff for Android is all Eclipse
17:14:02 <alise> [[The end title designer forgot to use punctuation when writing the end credits. This resulted in all assistants being listed as i.e. "ass designer" or "ass painter".]]
17:14:07 <Sgeo_> I mean, other IDEs can be used, but you don't get the tools
17:14:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: "Yeah, got it."
17:14:40 <Sgeo_> Where is the SomeClass.this.someMember stuff documented?
17:14:52 <Sgeo_> If I didn't see someone mention it, I would not have known of its existance
17:15:20 <ais523> Sgeo_: in the documentation, of course
17:15:26 <ais523> although, .this. looks very suspicious
17:16:00 <ais523> the documentation tends to be heavily integrated in Java IDEs; it needs to be, it's such a pain to do anything otherwise
17:16:28 <AnMaster> ais523, hm CLC-INTERCAL has lectures and classes, but I think adding a "that" as a parody of "this" sounds like a fun idea
17:16:31 * Sgeo_ should attempt to compile this Hello World or something
17:16:51 <ais523> AnMaster: that would completely break INTERCAL's syntax
17:16:56 <ais523> which is possibly enough of a reason to implement it by itself
17:17:18 <ais523> AnMaster: using a keyword to alias a variable
17:17:27 <ais523> INTERCAL expressions just don't do that
17:17:47 <ais523> they're mostly just line noise, with the oververbose keywords being for statements
17:17:54 <AnMaster> ais523, it wouldn't point to the own class or lecture of course.
17:18:14 * Sgeo_ hopes that Java will merely be unbearable, rather than poisonous
17:18:26 <ais523> Sgeo_: don't worry, it's entirely sane enough, just annoying
17:18:28 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you could do native code for the phone
17:18:36 <alise> AnMaster: not if you want to use gui stuff
17:18:44 <alise> all the apis are java
17:18:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't consider the verbosity of java to be sane
17:18:47 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, before I do any non-Java stuff, I should probably actually get a test app running on the phone
17:19:00 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, that's unbearable, not mind poisoning
17:19:25 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, hm I guess you could say that
17:19:28 <Sgeo_> LSL's reliance on global variables, however, IS mind-poisoning
17:19:46 <ais523> the real reason that problems happen in Java, I think, is the lack of sane defaults (or rather, /any/ defaults) for most of the standard libraries
17:19:55 <ais523> this is not bad, just tedious
17:20:10 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, have you heard about the scoping rules of bash and how to return a variable in the callers scope (or anywhere above local scope for that matter)
17:20:19 <AnMaster> I'm sure I mentioned it in here before ;P
17:20:32 <Sgeo_> We're doing bash scripting in my UNIX class now
17:20:39 <Sgeo_> I hate it, the syntax is incomprehensible
17:20:52 <alise> Bash is one of the worst languages.
17:20:54 <ais523> it's why something like a simple text box with a spinner can come out to far too much code because you have to say /just what/ sort of numbers the spinner spins through, and in what order, and maybe you want letters instead? or arbitrary INTERCAL statements?
17:20:59 <ais523> alise: stop bashing it
17:21:02 <Sgeo_> a=($@) is different from a=$@
17:21:07 <Sgeo_> And I don't know why
17:21:18 <ais523> Sgeo_: because parens aren't used for grouping in bash, they're an operator
17:21:25 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, Would you call this mind poisoning?: foo() { printf -v "$1" "foo data"; } bar() { local myvar; foo myvar; echo "$myvar"; }
17:21:33 <AnMaster> run bar, it will print "foo data"
17:21:44 <ais523> once you understand why (a)(:): and (a):: are different in Underload, you should go some way towards realising why they're different in bash
17:21:49 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, reason to do this is to avoid subshells
17:22:05 <AnMaster> a subshell can't affect variables outside it
17:22:13 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, I'm a bit confused
17:22:20 <ais523> (that said, an esolang that did operator precedence by calling itself recursively sounds fun)
17:22:52 <Sgeo_> And why printf and not echo?
17:23:03 <Sgeo_> erm, n/.. I'm confused
17:23:34 <AnMaster> <Sgeo_> a=($@) is different from a=$@ <-- the former declares an array of space-splitting all the cmd line args (you need quotes to avoid it!) The second... hm. I think it does a=$1 $2 ...
17:23:42 <AnMaster> which is probably not what was intended at all
17:24:03 <Sgeo_> THe professor gave us something like a=($@) without explanation
17:24:05 <Deewiant> What's the difference between $* and $@ again
17:24:11 <Sgeo_> And I decided not to write the parens
17:24:32 <Sgeo_> I'd rather write JAVA than ever touch Bash agaim
17:24:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is complicated and depends on if you use quotes around or not
17:25:02 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you dislike bash because of that?
17:25:16 <AnMaster> the parens mean an array, without them it isn't one
17:25:23 <Deewiant> I dislike bash because while loops tend to run in subshells
17:25:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, only if you don't know how to avoid it
17:26:20 <AnMaster> but not while ...; do ...; done <(foo)
17:26:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, quoting man bash: "$@" is equivalent to "$1" "$2" ...
17:26:59 <AnMaster> "$*" is equivalent to "$1c$2c...", where c is the first character of the value of the IFS variable.
17:27:20 <ais523> AnMaster: wow, I didn't even realise the order of characters in IFS mattered
17:27:25 <Sgeo_> Why is Eclipse so slow?
17:27:43 <Sgeo_> The.. order of characters.. in IFS.. matters
17:27:45 <ais523> Sgeo_: hundreds of layers of design patterns
17:27:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't say I remembered it. I don't generally mess with IFS. I think I changed it once. And that was in envbot and I reset it quickly after
17:28:02 <Sgeo_> WHY does the order of characters in IFS matter?
17:28:18 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, because of sh compat I guess?
17:28:21 <ais523> so that the system knows which ones to use if it's trying to make a list, presumably
17:28:40 <Sgeo_> Bleh, my screen is not large enough to accomodate a 800x480 screen
17:28:47 <Sgeo_> s/screen/resolution/g
17:29:06 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, wth? Is that some mini-netbook? Or a phone?
17:29:26 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, well why are you doing that on a phone?
17:29:52 <Sgeo_> Because I want to see my modified hello world app work?
17:30:14 <AnMaster> and iirc the only way the order matters in IFS is to decide which char will be used for separating lists and such that bash outputs.
17:30:28 <AnMaster> I guess you could have used a separate variable for that
17:30:42 <AnMaster> but it would have been a waste of memory on those old systems where sh was invented
17:31:55 <Sgeo_> My emulator seems to be not working nicely right now :(
17:33:00 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, did you mean you couldn't fit a 800x480 on your phone screen?
17:33:12 <AnMaster> because that is how I interpreted the answer
17:33:18 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, I couldn't fit it on my laptop screen
17:33:24 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, well okay that is strange
17:33:39 <Sgeo_> erm, it might be 480x800
17:33:59 <AnMaster> okay that is somewhat more reasonable not being able to fit in height direction
17:34:08 <alise> that's not a laptop
17:34:24 * Sgeo_ 's resolution is 1280x800
17:36:35 <alise> 00:04:12 <augur> want me to ask the Iota guy any questions? :x
17:36:38 <alise> WHY ARE YOU A FELINE
17:36:53 <alise> 00:48:51 <fizzie> (I think I remember some completely non-Java thing that still opted to steal Eclipse's IDE bits, though I don't quite remember what that ws.)
17:37:37 <Sgeo_> Why can't I find my app on the emulator?
17:38:28 <Sgeo_> Oh, Eclipse says that the emulator disconnected
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17:41:05 * Sgeo_ has an idea for an app
17:41:56 <Sgeo_> The emulator is too slow for Eclipse! How's that for irony?
17:46:15 -!- cheater2 has joined.
17:47:54 <Sgeo_> Ah. Not making the emulator have Nexus One's screen specs is nice
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17:53:59 * alise is skeptical of AMS Euler
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18:03:11 -!- augur has joined.
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18:27:33 <AnMaster> <Sgeo_> The emulator is too slow for Eclipse! How's that for irony? <-- heh
18:30:47 * Sgeo_ wonders how wel Jaskell works
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18:38:51 <pikhq> Insufficiently, I'm sure.
18:40:46 <oerjan> <ais523> AnMaster: thanks, you've restored my faith in humanity <-- AnMaster not knowing things restores your faith in humanity?
18:41:02 <ais523> oerjan: anyone not knowing things
18:41:18 <ais523> you see someone or something which is advertised to death, you feel happy when someone doesn't know about it
18:41:23 <alise> what didn't he know?
18:41:32 <alise> http://jaskell.codehaus.org/
18:41:33 <AnMaster> <oerjan> <ais523> AnMaster: thanks, you've restored my faith in humanity <-- AnMaster not knowing things restores your faith in humanity? <-- when?
18:41:36 <alise> My lord it is hideous
18:41:39 <alise> [[$$<<hello $name>>$$ where ]]
18:41:47 <alise> The following expressions all evaluate to "hello":
18:41:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: In response to Joel Spolsky
18:42:00 <alise> if-then-else is the only native conditional statement in Jaskell.
18:42:00 <alise> Unlike many imperative languages such as Java, the "else" clause is mandatory.
18:42:00 <alise> The following expression evaluates to 5:
18:42:00 <alise> if 1==1 then 1 else 5
18:42:13 <alise> that's just a typo, but it makes everything so much funnier
18:42:20 <Sgeo_> alise, are these cases any good? http://www.case-mate.com/Google-Cases/Case-Mate-Google-Nexus-One-Tough-Cases.asp
18:42:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, was that around when I said about disconnecting?
18:42:27 <ais523> alise: does the quoting of hello require exactly four bracket-variants around it?
18:42:27 <AnMaster> it seemed the replay was broken
18:42:28 <alise> Sgeo_: don't bother with a case
18:42:36 <AnMaster> so I didn't get any replay after reconnecting
18:42:44 <Sgeo_> alise, I _will_ drop it at some point, in all liklihood
18:42:53 <ais523> ooh, this website uses frames
18:42:53 <alise> Sgeo_: yeah a case won't help
18:42:57 <Sgeo_> I do have a distressing tendency to drop phones
18:43:51 <ais523> Jaskell $$< is Perl qq, Jaskell <<< is Perl q
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18:44:00 <ais523> the only thing insane is the names of the operators
18:44:23 <ais523> but they're still pretty insane
18:45:11 <ais523> also, there's something simultaneously horrifying and elegant about that switch construct
18:45:12 <Sgeo_> Wait, Jaskell != Haskell on the JVM?
18:45:28 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, if you drop phones get one of those toughened ones
18:45:31 <ais523> Sgeo_: it seems to be on the JVM, but its syntax is certainly radically different from Haskell's
18:45:43 <ais523> haven't read far enough to know if the semantics are remotely similar
18:45:55 <Deewiant> AFAIK there is no Haskell for JVM
18:46:18 <Sgeo_> How difficult could Haskell on the JVM possibly be?
18:46:20 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, I remember hearing on radio a test of a mobile phone that survived being driven over by a van!
18:46:27 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, it wasn't a smartphone though
18:46:30 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, is it an Andr.. right
18:46:59 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, it was some call-sms-bw-screen Ericcoson one, marked to construction workers and such
18:47:06 <Deewiant> ais523: F# is on .NET, too :-P
18:47:18 <ais523> Deewiant: it's only on .NET, is the point
18:47:33 <ais523> and besides, is an ML-derivative rather than Haskell-derivative
18:47:36 <Deewiant> I thought your point was that F# is approximately Haskell
18:47:41 <Sgeo_> Call me when you can use .NET stuff on Android
18:47:42 <Deewiant> And that the .NET/JVM thing was just a mistake
18:47:44 <ais523> no, I was just trolling
18:47:53 <ais523> thus the running in the following line
18:48:00 <Deewiant> I thought you only trolled in one point, not two, though
18:48:05 <ais523> apparently, when trolling, being factually accurate doesn't work so well
18:49:03 <ais523> hmm, this lang starts to look a bit more haskellish halfway down
18:49:21 <ais523> the "call by need" seems rather vague, though
18:49:47 <ais523> although I suppose in a pure lang, pretty much all the lazy calling conventions are identical, because there's no way to tell them apart
18:50:42 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, oh btw that phone finally gave up when they drove over it with an excavator iirc XD
18:51:57 <ais523> alise: Jaskell doesn't seem /that/ insane
18:51:59 <AnMaster> <Sgeo_> Call me when you can use .NET stuff on Android <-- presumably you could compile mono for it
18:52:17 <ais523> AnMaster: it isn't really
18:52:28 <ais523> Linux is there, but it's a long way away from a standard Linux system
18:52:48 <ais523> it's like, sitting down at an elisp interpreter and asking "am I on Linux", to which the correct answer is "why do you care?"
18:52:50 <AnMaster> ais523, linux would still be the lowest layer and java higher up
18:53:01 <ais523> yep, but you can't communicate with the lowest layer
18:53:07 <ais523> so it might as well be made of kittens
18:53:17 <AnMaster> ais523, and I would care because the one thing I want on my phone is a bash shell :P
18:53:27 <pikhq> ais523: Actually, you can.
18:53:30 <AnMaster> that would be the main reason to get a linux based phone
18:53:35 <ais523> is it just unrecommended?
18:53:45 <pikhq> The Java runtime on Android allows you to load .so files.
18:53:58 <AnMaster> and then everything else should be easy :D
18:54:00 <pikhq> The only reason for *using* Java is because the Android API itself is in Java.
18:54:34 <ais523> does the notion of a Java shell (along the lines of csh) even make any sense at all, I wonder?
18:54:40 <AnMaster> hm I think some more linuxish phone would fit me better
18:54:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, didn't you have some linux phone?
18:55:13 <pikhq> Terrible syntax for a shell.
18:55:26 <ais523> something's wrong here
18:55:40 <ais523> the mere mention of csh makes people shudder sufficiently that they don't realise that doing it with Java would be even worse
18:55:51 <pikhq> ais523: I'm shuddering at the idea of a Java shell.
18:55:53 <ais523> (hmm... isn't that what Powershell is, come to think of it, except with .NET rather than Java?)
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18:56:05 <pikhq> csh is fairly poor, but it's at least *usable* as a shell.
18:56:22 <pikhq> ais523: Powershell adds syntactic sugar.
18:56:33 <ais523> pikhq: as does .NET generally
18:56:45 <pikhq> Also, it's only a ".Net shell" in the sense that it's essentially a REPL for .Net.
18:56:48 <ais523> I find C# really confusing to read, the mix of syntaxen is as bad as Perl
18:58:07 <AnMaster> ais523, ouch you are right *shudder so violent it registers as 2.2 on the Richter scale*
18:58:45 <ais523> bonus points for using it interactively
18:58:54 <AnMaster> ais523, using what interactively?
18:59:25 <ais523> yep, jsh or whatever we call it
18:59:29 <alise> stop abusing plurals
18:59:35 <alise> also, csh isn't /that/ bad
18:59:38 <alise> it's bad, but not world-endingly bad
18:59:46 <AnMaster> <ais523> I find C# really confusing to read, the mix of syntaxen is as bad as Perl <-- better than Java at least. How did you do attributes and generic types in java now again?
18:59:48 <ais523> alise: if it makes you feel better, I used the word "syntaxen" knowing it was wrong
18:59:56 <alise> ais523: yes, but it's irritating :P
19:00:03 <pikhq> Especially when you consider that what it was improving on was *old-school* Bourne shell.
19:00:06 <ais523> attributes I can't remember, because I've never used them (assuming we mean the same thing by the word)
19:00:14 <pikhq> It added *job control*.
19:00:15 <ais523> but generics is done exactly the same way syntax-wise as C++
19:00:37 <ais523> the relative sanity of that idea, I'll leave up to you to decide
19:00:38 <AnMaster> ais523, C# has a _fairly_ clean syntax for generics
19:00:56 <ais523> in Java it's basically HashMap<String,String> or whatever
19:01:02 <AnMaster> but not quite as unreadable and not having the other issues of C++ templates
19:01:23 <ais523> btw, the new version of GCC apparently doesn't print default template arguments by default any more
19:01:24 <AnMaster> ais523, similar in C# and how do you define HashMap generic?
19:01:32 <ais523> which presumably helps a lot against error message spam
19:01:39 <ais523> AnMaster: it's in the standard library
19:01:42 <AnMaster> ais523, class HashMap<T1,T2> or some such?
19:01:46 <pikhq> ais523: Still not as good as Clang.
19:01:51 <AnMaster> ais523, well assuming you want to make a similar class yourself....
19:01:51 <ais523> but if you're defining your own thing generic, you just put the angle brackets in
19:01:58 <pikhq> Which is basically how compiler error messages should be *done*.
19:02:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and then refer to T1 and T2 in the code?
19:02:09 <AnMaster> well sounds exactly like C# then
19:02:21 <ais523> AnMaster: C#'s basic syntax isn't bad
19:02:24 <ais523> they just went overboard with extensions
19:02:34 <AnMaster> ais523, which isn't quite like C++ thankfully. C++ after all does the template keyword for it. And for other things
19:02:46 <AnMaster> I remember seeing the template keyword on something else than a class
19:02:47 <ais523> e.g. the LINQ stuff; I know, let's do functional-style programming with map and filter etc, but I know, let's use SQL syntax!
19:02:58 <ais523> AnMaster: you can have template functions in C++
19:03:02 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you mean by attributes btw then?
19:03:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure; I've vaguely heard it's some way of tagging something to mean something, but I'm not really sure
19:03:32 <ais523> or was that annotations?
19:03:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I saw mandlebrot in sql once. Might have been PL/SQL or sich
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19:04:03 <ais523> AnMaster: the issue isn't with SQL itself (it's OK for what it's meant to do), but randomly embedding its syntax in a C-resembling (or Java-resembling) language
19:04:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well iirc that thing is cleaner in C#. Used for various things. Remember doing meta programming by getting all classes tagged with a certain attribute in the compiled file
19:05:04 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't that exist? As embedded sql or such? Fairly old and obscure thing iirc
19:05:17 <Sgeo_> ais523, you don't need to use the special LINQ syntax to use LINQ
19:05:47 <ais523> AnMaster: var lownums = from n in numbers where n < 5 select digits[n];
19:05:49 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_SQL
19:05:58 <ais523> it's that that I'm talking about
19:06:04 <ais523> (example taken straight from Microsoft's docs)
19:06:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I only worked with .NET 2.0
19:06:18 <ais523> Sgeo_: no, but presumably it exists for a reason
19:06:35 <ais523> AnMaster: pretty much what you'd expect if you think about what the similar SQL and Java statements would do
19:06:53 <ais523> also, I'm pretty surprised that you ever worked with .NET, you don't seem to be the type
19:06:54 <AnMaster> ais523, "similar java statement"?
19:07:04 <AnMaster> ais523, also: it seems backwards compared to SQL
19:07:09 <ais523> yes, I noticed that too
19:07:26 <AnMaster> ais523, but what do you mean with similar java statement?
19:07:30 <ais523> AnMaster: well, an assignment
19:07:48 <AnMaster> ais523, and I mostly worked with mono not .NET
19:08:00 <ais523> AnMaster: I think you know the bits of Java syntax which are near-identical to C and C# syntax, yes
19:08:10 <AnMaster> but what does the "var" there do
19:08:26 <ais523> but only for declarations
19:09:06 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't that be some array or list type in the example above?
19:09:22 <ais523> yes, it's an array, you're indexing it
19:09:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean that the var goes to
19:09:33 <ais523> with exactly the same syntax as in more or less every C-like sane language ever
19:09:40 <AnMaster> it could be list or array or set or dict as far as I can see
19:09:57 <AnMaster> but set or list would make sense
19:10:04 <ais523> I'm not actually sure what it is, the evil thing about type inference is that you can't tell by looking at the relevant bit of code
19:10:08 <AnMaster> set especially so since that is what SQL kind of returns
19:10:18 <ais523> (even in Haskell, it's good style for top-level functions to be annotated with what types are supposed to be inferred)
19:10:29 <ais523> and no, SQL results are ordered
19:11:05 <Sgeo_> ROFL at porn spam on AndroidZoom:
19:11:06 <Sgeo_> "Its Peekababe - our newest, coolest and sexiest android app ever!. With the flick of your wrist and a twist of your iPhone, watch their clothes slide off."
19:11:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well if you use group by or whatever sure
19:11:26 <ais523> if you don't, IIRC the results are supposed to be in natural order
19:11:37 <ais523> Sgeo_: search-and-replace fail?
19:11:45 <ais523> manual-search-and-replace fail
19:11:49 <alise> <ais523> (even in Haskell, it's good style for top-level functions to be annotated with what types are supposed to be inferred)
19:11:57 <alise> and in a dependently-typed language sometimes (often) you must annotate types
19:12:11 <AnMaster> ais523, hm I can't figure out which one maps to from in SQL: "from n in numbers" "select digits[n]"
19:12:17 <alise> because it's impossible-as-in-deciding-truth-or-falsity-of-arbitrary-higher-order-propositions-impossible to infer
19:12:19 <ais523> C#'s "type inference" is basically just inferring variable types from their initialisers
19:12:27 <ais523> which is substantially more decidable, I imagine
19:12:54 <AnMaster> ais523, it could be decided at runtime in C# I assume?
19:12:57 <ais523> alise: incidentally, one of the things I'm doing for work in Real Life right now involves trying to construct a program which is formally undecidable to infer types for
19:13:09 <alise> ais523: i think that's easy
19:13:10 <ais523> AnMaster: err, determining types at runtime in a statically typed language?
19:13:21 <ais523> but I have to work within the constraints of the language I have
19:13:23 <ais523> which is not a typical one
19:13:25 <alise> ais523: make the type of some thing depend on the veracity of some independent-from-axioms statement?
19:13:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean it is an System.Object unless it is a value type
19:13:40 <ais523> alise: I was planning to compile Diophantine equations into the type system
19:13:45 <AnMaster> yes the value type thing confuses things a bit
19:13:56 <alise> ais523: ah, that is a better approach
19:13:58 <AnMaster> but that means enum, integer, struct, float plus a few misc things iirc
19:14:18 <AnMaster> almost everything else is an object. And you can get boxed integers and so on
19:14:29 <ais523> alise: IIRC Chaitin has a diophantine equation that implements Lisp, but the equation itself isn't really needed, just a way to construct it from a class which is known to contain undecidable elements
19:14:47 <alise> Chaitin is one of my heroes.
19:15:12 <alise> I was going to say "is my hero", but wanted to parenthesise "(is one of)", then realised I'd need "hero(es)", then just decided to expand it.
19:15:21 <AnMaster> <ais523> alise: I was planning to compile Diophantine equations into the type system <-- what about doing something like perl undecidability proof?
19:15:36 <ais523> AnMaster: the point is, the language itself is decidable
19:15:39 <AnMaster> not sure what your constraints is
19:15:43 <alise> AnMaster: you fail at "undecidability"
19:15:43 <alise> and also what that perl proof means
19:15:47 <ais523> which leads to the crazy case of a decidable language with an undecidable type system
19:15:50 <alise> (hint: it's about syntax, not typing)
19:15:59 <alise> besides, that requires compile-time code execution
19:16:02 <AnMaster> ais523, what is this language?
19:16:08 <alise> ais523: decidable as in it is runnable?
19:16:21 <AnMaster> or is it supposed to be generic "any language with these properties"?
19:16:21 <ais523> alise: decidable as in bounded storage
19:16:23 <alise> most dependent type systems have undecidable type systems but can be executed perfectly well
19:16:37 <ais523> so you can tell whether it halts or not by running it until you either get a repeat of the program state or it exits
19:16:38 <alise> x is-of-type X is decidable
19:16:38 <alise> just not x is-of-type ?
19:16:53 <ais523> no, x is-correctly-typed is undecidable
19:17:09 <ais523> given the types of everything, though, x halts is decidable
19:17:53 <alise> god, kolmogorov complexity is so sexy
19:17:53 <alise> I want to make a billion esolangs about it
19:18:13 <alise> ais523: ooh, use this diophantine equation as the sample
19:18:13 <alise> Chaitin made a Diophantine equation for the bits of \Omega
19:19:09 <alise> hah, the theorem that there is no perfect size-optimising compiler is called the "full employment theorem"
19:20:10 <ais523> the /really/ silly part is that, although I haven't proved it yet, I /think/ it's possible to prove that any code in the language that types incorrectly is necessarily dead code, and the bits that actually run can be typed correctly
19:20:23 -!- alise_ has joined.
19:20:27 <ais523> (and if you're wondering what sort of lang has that property, let's just say it's a rather unusual type system)
19:20:36 <ais523> <AnMaster> bbl <ais523> the /really/ silly part is that, although I haven't proved it yet, I /think/ it's possible to prove that any code in the language that types incorrectly is necessarily dead code, and the bits that actually run can be typed correctly
19:21:08 <alise_> ais523: Is it a language formulated for the purposes of this; some other academic language; or something that somebody actually made up for "real"?
19:21:21 <alise_> Well, by "academic language" I mean "for the purposes of studying its properties"; the latter would presumably be "academic" too.
19:21:40 <ais523> alise: the last; the type system isn't being used for the purposes that type systems are normally used for, though
19:21:47 <ais523> it's basically a static-bounding type system
19:21:56 <alise_> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~chaitin/omega2.r ;; this is the diophantine equation to compute \Omega, I think
19:22:04 <ais523> giving maximum bounds on the number of times things can be run in parallel
19:22:08 <alise_> hmm... to a certain precision, I think
19:22:22 <alise_> using the exhaustive-parallel-program-running approach, I imagine?
19:23:00 <Sgeo_> Ooh, the back button dismisses the keyboard
19:23:46 <alise_> Sgeo_: it's touch-sensitive not an actual button on the nexus one :P
19:24:00 <ais523> alise_: anyway, the point is that variables only used by dead code take up storage, but aren't actually used and so you don't need actual storage for them
19:24:06 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
19:24:20 <alise_> That's true but also seemingly out-of-context.
19:24:20 <ais523> and yet, as the storage bounds are determined by the type system, the typing has to take the dead code into account
19:24:23 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise.
19:24:44 <alise> So it's a type system that encodes things like complexity and storage usage?
19:24:54 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4pXcfgH4fE
19:25:06 <alise> I dreamt of that, once; well, actually just complexity. Then someone pointed out to me that analysing complexity was really hard, and I stopped thinking about it.
19:25:23 <ais523> encoding complexity is relatively easy if you're insisting on finite storage
19:25:29 <ais523> because it's always just O(1), the question is, what number
19:27:12 <alise> There was a nice quote about Knuth not being satisfied with "on the order of O(n log n)", instead giving an exact result with an approximated number; and /then/ he'd calculate that number to 10 decimal places.
19:29:14 <alise> I don't think some encoding of the lambda-calculus is the best way to do Kolgomorov complexity -- sorry, John Tromp -- because of the iffiness of IO.
19:29:29 <alise> We need something that naturally yields some piece of data -- say, a list of naturals -- as part of computation.
19:29:47 <alise> But not something so unpredictable as Brainfuck's tape, that gets littered with rubbish and has to be cleaned up after-the-fact.
19:32:56 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:33:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:33:02 <Sgeo_> There's a Brainfuck Android app
19:33:20 <zzo38> I think I saw that once
19:33:21 <Sgeo_> Maybe I'll make a Befunge interpreter
19:33:32 <Sgeo_> I'd have to learn Befunge first, ofc
19:33:41 <zzo38> Maybe make INTERCAL Android
19:33:56 <alise> Make an actual android that can program in INTERCAL.
19:34:10 <ais523> Sgeo_: Befunge-93 is pretty easy to interpret
19:34:13 <zzo38> alise: That isn't what I meant, but you can do that too, if you like to
19:34:16 <ais523> the fine points of Befunge-98 can be chaos, though
19:34:38 <Sgeo_> Befunge-93 isn't TC, apparently
19:35:02 <ais523> Sgeo_: it's a PDA, only finite amounts of storage can be accessed without permanently deleting some of it
19:35:29 <ais523> that isn't really a very good way to express it; I know what I mean, but the standard conditions for being likely to be a PDA are kind-of hard to define
19:35:38 <ais523> (for a very informal way of guessing: "one stack")
19:35:42 <zzo38> The best food at Japanese restaurant I had was yesterday
19:35:59 <Deewiant> So that's where yesterday went
19:36:01 <alise> zzo38: the food was a timespan?
19:36:08 <ais523> how often do you eat at Japanese restaurants?
19:36:12 <zzo38> It was called Sushi Plus. It was different than other Japanese restaurants I have been to, but I prefer it at that place
19:36:16 <alise> ais523: Every yesterday.
19:36:32 <zzo38> ais523: Not very often but occasionally I do, but not too rarely either
19:37:26 <Sgeo_> The first place the stack is mentioned is in the instruction set :/
19:37:30 <zzo38> At Sushi Plus restaurant they served soup with rice noodles and beef teriyaki with eggs and rice together but no sauce. They also had a whiteboard with writing in Japanese, I could understand some of it but some of it I asked them what it meant so they said
19:38:09 <ais523> beautiful; I hadn't realised that the Befunge specs were /quite/ that disorganized
19:39:17 <zzo38> And I didn't have to ask for spoon, they served spoon with both the soup and with the beef/rice. Of course they had chopsticks as well. I find it useful to use chopstick and spoon together
19:39:18 <alise> Sgeo_: what, in Befunge-98?
19:39:19 <Sgeo_> ais523, I'm looking at the wiki
19:39:20 <alise> That is completely false.
19:39:42 <ais523> alise: I think we're discussing -93, although I'm not sure
19:39:43 <alise> ais523: actually, /most/ of the -98 spec is okay; it's just the instructions that are really abdly specified
19:39:52 <ais523> getting an understanding of -93 first helps before moving onto -98
19:39:56 <alise> there is no canonical -93 spec afaik
19:40:07 <ais523> the one returned by Google is pretty canonical
19:40:43 <Sgeo_> Is there a difference between http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html and Befunge-98?
19:40:58 <alise> Sgeo_: that /is/ the Funge-98 specification
19:41:08 <Deewiant> But to be safe, you can go with the more official link http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
19:41:09 <Sgeo_> Funge-98 == Befunge-98?
19:41:12 <alise> It defines Unefunge-98, Befunge-98 and Trefunge-98, with a nod to other-dimensional (and other-topological) analogies.
19:41:19 <ais523> Sgeo_: Befunge-98 is a special case of Funge-98
19:41:30 <alise> ais523: well, actually, Funge-98 doesn't define the n-dimensional case
19:41:31 <ais523> and the one that's generally used
19:41:32 <zzo38> Perhaps you can make one with hex-grid if you want to
19:41:42 <alise> zzo38: yep, that's mentioned in the spec
19:41:48 <alise> [[As mentioned, Funge is a family of programming languages, and Befunge has many relatives and descendants. This document only covers Cartesian Funges. Other Funges, such as Honefunges (hex-net topology) and Kleinefunges (Klein-bottles) are certainly possible.]]
19:41:54 <ais523> you'd need to change the commands a bit though for a hexgrid
19:42:05 <alise> [[However, Advanced Funges may not find either torodial space or Lahey-space sufficient for complex topologies, so this spec provides a language for defining wrapping behaviour in a mathematical way.
19:42:06 <alise> We can define an a wrapping function W() along the lines of:
19:42:06 <alise> W(x,y) = (x<0 -> x:=79, x>79 -> x:=0, y<0 -> y:=24, y>24 -> y:=0)
19:42:06 <alise> for Befunge-93. Complex topologies can define their own wrapping functions. If these functions are strictly and clearly specified in the documentation of the Advanced Funge in question, it will save a lot of confusion to users, and is highly recommended.]]
19:42:09 <alise> ais523: perhaps not
19:42:10 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I would recognise that
19:42:15 <alise> topologists can do all sorts of things
19:42:23 <alise> I like how they call W a mathematical definition when it assigns variables.
19:42:25 <ais523> alise: I'm mostly thinking of <>v^
19:42:28 <oerjan> eine kleine funge musik
19:43:12 <alise> ais523: you can easily give them definitions
19:43:35 <ais523> yes, but you can't sanely use the official definitions
19:43:42 <ais523> but then, y is always fun
19:43:56 <alise> How would y be fun? y just outputs system information, no?
19:44:01 <zzo38> What about, fractal board befunge?
19:44:16 <Sgeo_> I guess I shouldn't allocate a 2^32 by 2^32 array/list/whatever
19:44:32 <Deewiant> That's generally not a good idea, no
19:44:36 <ais523> zzo38: hmm; you could have a command to multiply the deltas by infinity
19:44:43 <ais523> and divide by infinity
19:44:48 <ais523> in a sort-of consistent way
19:44:52 <ais523> basically, moving between the digits of a base-infinity number
19:44:53 <fizzie> Deewiant: If you can afford it...
19:44:58 <ais523> that would give fractal behaviour
19:45:07 <alise> Sgeo_: Are you implementing -93?
19:45:12 <alise> If so, then it's 80x24.
19:45:14 <ais523> Sgeo_: some sort of sparse array is usual for -98
19:45:19 <alise> If not, then realise that it is a mammoth task.
19:45:20 <ais523> for -93, it fits in an array just fine
19:45:20 <Sgeo_> alise, I want to do -98
19:45:22 <alise> It will take thousands of lines.
19:45:31 <alise> And much bothering Deewiant.
19:45:33 <alise> Deewiant: Er, yes.
19:45:35 <Sgeo_> Hm, maybe I'll make a -93 interp first
19:45:49 <Sgeo_> Is there a Mycology for -93?
19:46:00 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is a idea. Like, you can use a lowercase omega to represent this kind of "infinity"? Maybe
19:46:01 <Deewiant> alise: I maintain that the core can be done in less than a 1000 lines :-P
19:46:02 <AnMaster> <zzo38> ais523: Not very often but occasionally I do, but not too rarely either <-- how zzo
19:46:11 <zzo38> ais523: But not in ASCII
19:46:23 <zzo38> AnMaster: I can't remember exactly what time but I do sometimes
19:46:31 <ais523> zzo38: you could write \omega in ASCII, TeXishly
19:46:48 <alise> Deewiant: But not efficiently in any way.
19:46:49 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: Mycology has some tests for -93-only interpreters
19:46:53 <zzo38> ais523: But not for ASCII based grid, I meant
19:47:05 <Deewiant> alise: Sufficiently efficiently
19:47:12 <alise> zzo38: use W or something
19:47:13 <AnMaster> zzo38, why should I care about that
19:47:17 <alise> it's just like lowercase omega, only slanty and big
19:47:18 <Sgeo_> Not looking forward to typing in all of Mycology though. I guess I should figure out how to let my app load it
19:47:19 <ais523> hey, it's doable in one line of java
19:47:20 <Deewiant> How often do you run performance-intensive Befunge? :-P
19:47:20 <AnMaster> zzo38, I just said your line was very zzoish
19:47:46 <alise> Sgeo_: you only need the -93 mycology set
19:47:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: I managed to spend 625 lines in ff3, and that's just 93.
19:47:50 <alise> since the rest is exclusively -98
19:47:52 <alise> and the -93 test is very small
19:47:53 <Sgeo_> alise, still a lot of typing
19:47:57 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yeah, but you're doing it wrong.
19:48:05 <alise> fizzie: That GLfunge thing is bad, right?
19:48:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: How big is jitfunge at the moment, by the way?
19:48:14 <Sgeo_> Well, it means I'll see how survivable the keyboard is
19:48:20 <fizzie> alise: Yes, don't speak of it.
19:48:30 <ais523> hmm, talking to zzo38 has almost all the advantages of talking to a computer, with the bonus of being able to use natural-language English
19:48:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> zzo38: you could write \omega in ASCII, TeXishly <-- and emacs could convert that for you
19:48:44 <ais523> AnMaster: so could sed; so what
19:48:45 <alise> ais523: Ooh, interesting.
19:48:46 <AnMaster> ais523, M-x set-input-method RET TeX RET
19:48:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't thing "wrong" is quite fair, it works just fine.
19:48:49 <Sgeo_> Hm, maybe, actually
19:48:53 <AnMaster> ais523, that is quite different than sed
19:48:58 <alise> zzo38: Please present an algorithm for generating Pythagorean triples.
19:49:04 <ais523> alise: this is not #irp!
19:49:23 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact there are some other useful ones, such as IPA, SGML (or was it called SGML?) and a few more
19:49:32 <Deewiant> fizzie: Fair enough; can't think of a proper adjective though
19:49:36 <alise> ais523: Hey, he's just going to look it up in his algorithmic database.
19:49:40 <alise> Database lookups aren't computation! Much!
19:49:50 <AnMaster> ais523, and a lot of language ones like Chinese and what not
19:50:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: 5351 lines in .cc and .hh files in jitfunge currently.
19:50:06 <Sgeo_> So the IFs go down if true
19:50:08 <AnMaster> ais523, so comparing to sed is just useless. :P
19:50:09 <ais523> stop giving me an urge to anthropomorphise SQL so I can get it to taunt you for me
19:50:22 <ais523> AnMaster: you could do it with a specially-prepared sed script, I mean
19:50:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: That explains why it's not working yet ;-)
19:50:40 <AnMaster> ais523, that do this as you type with completion in the minibuffer?
19:51:03 <ais523> AnMaster: meh, it's Emacs, there's probably some way to run buffers repeatedly through an external program
19:51:06 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think sed has quite those IO capabilities
19:51:10 <ais523> completion might be a little harder though :)
19:51:30 <ais523> hmm, has anyone tried to make Emacs work like Gobby, I wonder?
19:51:37 <AnMaster> ais523, now you gave me an urge to learn more sed and then implement something ncurses-like in it
19:51:52 * Sgeo_ looks at the Befunge-93 spec
19:51:53 <ais523> AnMaster: sed reads input a line at a time
19:51:56 <Sgeo_> How is v.<>:| @ not a no-op?
19:51:59 <ais523> that's enough to scupper any hope of plausible input
19:52:08 <AnMaster> ais523, what about various sed variants?
19:52:10 <ais523> Sgeo_: it's an infinite loop
19:52:14 <ais523> you start with v, which points to itself
19:52:17 <ais523> the rest of the program is ignored
19:52:21 <AnMaster> ais523, gnu sed has some extensions for example
19:52:31 <AnMaster> I don't think it includes unbuffered IO though
19:52:33 <Sgeo_> So why is it in the spec as "This program makes duplicates of each value on the stacked, which is checked, and if non-zero, printed.
19:52:41 <ais523> probably you mispasted it
19:53:00 <Deewiant> Looks like something that should be two or more lines
19:53:01 <ais523> or removed newlines, or something
19:53:23 <zzo38> What I should do, is make a Phlogjournal interface for HTTP/HTML as well, but without the capability to send comments
19:53:35 <Deewiant> ais523: It's actually like that in the spec itself
19:53:41 <Sgeo_> http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html
19:53:46 <ais523> Deewiant: broken example in the spec?
19:54:10 <alise> zzo38: why haven't you presented the algorithm yet?
19:54:10 <ais523> what does it say in the source?
19:54:20 <ais523> alise: because you don't have admin rights to him
19:54:21 <Deewiant> <ul><code>v.<>:| @</code>
19:54:27 <AnMaster> <code>v.<>:| @</code> <-- broken in source too yes
19:54:32 <zzo38> alise: Can't you find one yourself?
19:54:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that <ul> is on a separate line
19:54:45 <ais523> and, as said earlier, this isn't #irp
19:54:47 <Deewiant> I was trying to paste it in one line
19:54:55 <ais523> I don't see why random #esotericers should have to answer your questions
19:55:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah couldn't see that what with </ul> on another one
19:55:23 <alise> zzo38: Yes, but you'll probably produce a nicer algorithm than other sources.
19:55:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: As for adjectives, maybe "wicked" instead of wrong, though "doing it wicked" sounds a bit strange.
19:55:55 <zzo38> alise: OK. But I would need more specifics of course, like which ones to generate and so on
19:56:15 <zzo38> And I'm still not sure I would do that right now anyways.
19:56:38 <alise> zzo38: All of them, in any order. Uniqueness doesn't matter.
19:56:45 <Sgeo_> afk; cleaning dog vomit
19:56:48 <alise> ais523: Not /quite/ like a computer, then :-)
19:56:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Can we agree to unimplement static areas? I don't like them :-P
19:56:57 <alise> zzo38: You don't have to, of course :P
19:57:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what? Of course I'll keep it
19:57:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why should I remove it when it speeds things up? :P
19:57:33 <Deewiant> It slows down wrapping programs
19:57:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? AABBs don't though
19:57:56 <Deewiant> For CCBI, it's only faster because the hardware is faster at using constants than variables
19:57:59 <AnMaster> but I prefer speed in speed-memory tradeoffs
19:58:07 <Deewiant> I think it's such a hack all in all :-P
19:58:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well sure, but that is always true
19:58:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you don't need to implement it in CCBI
19:58:19 <ais523> AnMaster: you do realise that memory bandwidth is the main source of speed nowadays?
19:58:20 <Deewiant> It doesn't have to be true, if your hardware is sufficiently stupid
19:58:29 <zzo38> alise: OK, now I know. I will do it when I want to but not right now. Perhaps I can use dc because it support arbritrary-precision-number
19:58:34 <ais523> apparently -O3 is often slower than -Os nowadays just because the smaller code fits more nicely into the cache
19:58:47 <pikhq> ais523: That's often been true, actually.
19:58:49 <AnMaster> ais523, gcc 4.5 miscompiles cfunge at -O3 I noticed
19:58:59 <AnMaster> haven't had time to investigate much more yet
19:59:03 <ais523> AnMaster: are you /sure/? compiler bugs are rare
19:59:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well it is a regression compared to previous versions
19:59:16 <ais523> you may be doing something that violates the C standard
19:59:29 <ais523> and gcc has decided to implement an optimisation that takes advantage of the leeway you give it
19:59:29 <zzo38> ais523: Is there a way to specify -O2 and -O3 and -Os for different parts of the same file? Also, does entering a label name cause a optimization break at that point?
19:59:32 <AnMaster> ais523, it breaks some {} test in mycology
19:59:34 <ais523> that sort of thing happens all the time
19:59:34 <Deewiant> I've found many LLVM and DMD bugs whilst developing CCBI :-P
19:59:54 <Deewiant> And GHC bugs whilst developing other stuff, etc
20:00:00 <pikhq> ais523: -O3 will break things that rely on even minor chunks of undefined behavior. :)
20:00:00 <ais523> zzo38: for the same file, not as far as I know, but there might be (probably some attribute); labels shouldn't cause any difference, loops are turned into gotos pretty early in optimisation anyway in gcc
20:00:11 <Deewiant> These days, more often than not, if I can't figure out why something's wrong within ten minutes, it's a compiler bug
20:00:22 <AnMaster> ais523, icc and clang works fine. But indeed further investigation needed. Which happens to be a PITA. It isn't like that ICE I got when trying the new link time optimisation stuff
20:00:23 <pikhq> Also, I'm pretty sure that Cfunge's odder things actually *are* compiler stress tests.
20:00:35 <AnMaster> which *is* a compiler bug by all definitions
20:00:57 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: Anyway, this is how that program is supposed to look:
20:01:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you should mail cpressy about it
20:01:19 <ais523> Deewiant: ah, that makes a lot more sense
20:01:29 <zzo38> Because, I would like to be able to force optimization breaks in optimized C programs, and retune optimizations for each individual parts of codes in some cases too. I think putting a label name somewhere should force an optimization break at that point even if that label is never refereced
20:01:42 <AnMaster> oh and someone tell alise about mkry if he hasn't already been told (tell him to read logs)
20:01:55 <alise> AnMaster: *she; *her
20:02:21 <alise> Actually quite ironic considering her situation.
20:02:26 <ais523> alise: I'm amused that you respond to someone's claim to be /ignoring you by nickpinging them; it seems a little redundant
20:02:50 <alise> ais523: I don't really care, since he spends all his time when I'm here talking about how I'm ignored.
20:03:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, either that exits right away or it loops forever? I can't remember which way goes which on | (only on _)
20:03:33 <ais523> zzo38: you could try __asm volatile ("" : : : "memory");
20:03:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "This program makes duplicates of each value on the stacked, which is checked, and if non-zero, printed."
20:04:07 <ais523> according to some random mailing list I found on the Internet, that basically causes everything to be dumped to memory and reloaded from it at that point so that your (nonexistent) asm statement can run
20:04:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah. so it isn't the complete program?
20:04:13 <ais523> that should be pretty good at disrupting optimisation
20:04:21 <zzo38> ais523: Thanks for that, perhaps it could work
20:04:38 <ais523> obviously, this is completely untested from my point of view
20:04:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: There is no "the" program, that's the snippet that's talking about
20:05:12 <pikhq> zzo38: __attribute__((optimize("Ofoo"))
20:05:13 <AnMaster> <zzo38> ais523: Is there a way to specify -O2 and -O3 and -Os for different parts of the same file? Also, does entering a label name cause a optimization break at that point? <-- yes per function using __attribute__ in recent gcc versions
20:05:17 <pikhq> Function attribute.
20:05:20 <Deewiant> It calls it a program that duplicates each value on the stack"ed"; at the beginning of all programs the stack is empty so presumably it's meant as a subroutine (or just a concept; if there were values on the stack this is what it would do)
20:05:20 <fizzie> Both ifs go the "same" way in the sense of the sign of the coordinate in question.
20:05:25 <pikhq> Only works on GCC 4.4 and higher.
20:05:26 <ais523> pikhq: ah, we've managed to answer both his questions between us?
20:05:28 <zzo38> AnMaster: Thanks for that too
20:05:42 <pikhq> Deewiant: No work on it.
20:05:48 <AnMaster> zzo38, I forgot what exact __attribute__, I refer you to the gcc documentation on that
20:06:03 <ais523> AnMaster: or to pikhq, who answered the question just before you did
20:06:27 <ais523> with the exact name of the attribute (__attribute__((optimize("O3")) or whatever, for reference)
20:06:27 <AnMaster> but no one uses info except for emacs built in help system
20:06:38 <zzo38> AnMaster: OK I can see the documentation
20:06:52 <fizzie> I use the gcc info page, but not many others.
20:06:55 <ais523> AnMaster: if I'm there at the time, but more usually standalone
20:07:05 <AnMaster> I use gcc online docs rather than touching info
20:07:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, well pinfo is kind of ok
20:07:21 <ais523> it's pretty good, pretty much like w3m, which I normally use for HTML docs
20:07:39 <AnMaster> well I use w3m-mode in emacs quite often
20:07:55 <Deewiant> Much of the hate is due to the default viewer
20:08:01 <zzo38> I use gcc online docs too, but only because I am on Windows. On Linux I would use the ones included in the system, because Linux has those but Windows doesn't
20:08:03 <ais523> Deewiant: but I like the default viewer!
20:08:09 <AnMaster> though pinfo isn't too good either
20:08:32 <AnMaster> for example pinfo can't do i-search using ctrl-s
20:08:34 <ais523> zzo38: sometimes you have to request docs specially, e.g. install gcc-doc as well as gcc
20:08:55 <zzo38> ais523: OK now I understand. But that still doesn't apply on Windows
20:08:57 <AnMaster> info is quite a strange mix of emacs and vi(m) key bindings
20:09:13 <zzo38> I do sometimes use Linux, when I am doing work at FreeGeek
20:09:17 <AnMaster> ais523, for example / to search and ctrl-s to search
20:09:18 <ais523> AnMaster: not really; you have to remember I play NetHack
20:09:46 <AnMaster> ais523, what about it? nethack doesn't use emacs key bindings at all IMO?
20:09:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'd imagine it's more consistent if you use Emacs' info reader.
20:10:22 <ais523> AnMaster: /all/ NetHack's keybindings are in nethack-el though
20:10:39 <ais523> but really, both vi bindings and emacs bindings are relatively familiar by now
20:10:49 <ais523> at least, the hjkl movement; actual vi editing, I'm rather bad with
20:11:10 <Sgeo_> It's impossible to change direction while in stringmode, I guess
20:11:14 <zzo38> I happen to like many things in vi
20:11:44 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: /all/ NetHack's keybindings are in nethack-el though <-- well, I never tried nethack-el
20:11:45 <zzo38> In some vi (such as vim) you can do cursor movement in insert mode (and also delete, pageup/down) by pushing the arrow keys (and pageup/pagedown/etc)
20:11:57 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not as good as regular NetHack, I don't think
20:12:03 <AnMaster> ais523, hjkl is quite confusing. Numpad ftw
20:12:10 <AnMaster> and this is why I never play nethack on my laptop
20:12:12 <ais523> AnMaster: how dare you say that!
20:12:29 <ais523> hjklyubn saves you from having to move your hands all the time, it's really convenient
20:12:32 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, it is possible to wrap while in string mode
20:12:50 <ais523> in numpad mode, how do you open doors? or look at things? or use stairs?
20:12:51 <zzo38> Some games I made supports many movement key such as hjkl/yubn/arrows/numpad/etc. Like, 100LEVEL game support vi keys or numpad
20:13:14 <AnMaster> ais523, and sometimes yes you have to move
20:13:23 <ais523> AnMaster: well, you can't cover the entirety of the main part of the keyboard with one hand
20:13:24 <AnMaster> just because I know this will annoy you
20:13:33 <zzo38> At least in ADOM, I use numpad + for upstairs and numpad enter for downstairs, 0 to open door, * to pickup, - to swap positions
20:13:41 <ais523> AnMaster: nethack-qt would be one of the better tiles interfaces if it didn't have horrifically broken font rendering
20:13:47 <ais523> but the sdl interface is awful
20:13:52 <ais523> *sdl interface is better
20:14:09 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't know there was an sdl one
20:14:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, it is <> for up/down in nethack
20:14:45 <zzo38> AnMaster: I know that
20:15:05 <zzo38> It is the same in Rogue and in ADOM as well. I have never won NetHack.
20:15:07 <ais523> AnMaster: I was about to ask the same question
20:15:21 <ais523> along the lines of "zzo38: which roguelikes have you won"
20:15:26 <ais523> I may as well ask you now the subject's come up, though
20:15:28 <zzo38> I have won ADOM however
20:15:34 <ais523> (I've ascended NetHack 5 times, never won any other roguelike)
20:15:59 <zzo38> But not NetHack or Rogue
20:16:10 <AnMaster> ais523: nethack: 2x val, 1x sam 1x wiz. No time on NAO due to horrible lag to it. Slash'EM: 3x val
20:16:35 <zzo38> I can't get NetHack to compile on my computer though
20:16:53 <AnMaster> and I refuse to play nethack without the menu colour patch
20:17:12 <zzo38> I can't win KING on the hardest difficulty level though
20:17:21 <zzo38> I won ADOM with Drakeling Fighter character
20:17:48 <AnMaster> ais523, so what do you think about that list? :)
20:17:53 <zzo38> http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=KING
20:18:05 <ais523> AnMaster: 4x val, 1x wiz, so pretty similar to mine
20:18:15 <AnMaster> ais523, val is simplest most certainly
20:18:38 <ais523> the wiz was mostly to prove I could ascend something else, and then go back to valks
20:19:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:19:16 <AnMaster> ais523, yes they have a less hard time on low levels most certainly
20:19:41 <ais523> earlygame isn't that bad as a wizard
20:19:56 <AnMaster> ais523, also I suggest you do tou or bar next
20:20:07 <AnMaster> on tou I managed the quest once at least
20:20:09 <ais523> bar has a stupid quest
20:20:16 <ais523> and is just like valk, but worse
20:20:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I never got that far with bar (rhyme unintentional)
20:21:16 <AnMaster> ais523, I still think tou should have a luggage, possibly only in wizmode though
20:21:19 <zzo38> I have won at Alan's Psychedelic Journey, too
20:21:28 <AnMaster> otherwise it would be extremely unbalanced
20:21:50 * Sgeo_ should probably make his Befunge-93 interpreter in such a way that it will be relatively easy to make it interpret -98
20:22:08 <pikhq> Sgeo_: The trick is to allow for sparse Fungespace.
20:22:11 <ais523> Sgeo_: the two langs are different enough that starting again is a common choice to implement -98 for -93 implementers
20:22:31 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, the trick is to allow you to rip out and replace funge space and stacks without too much pain
20:22:47 <Sgeo_> pikhq, first thing I thought of. Interface to the space should look the same in both, just implementation changes
20:22:52 <AnMaster> ais523, both cfunge and efunge started as 93-subset then went to larger
20:22:57 <Deewiant> You don't need to replace stacks unless you're going to implement MODE
20:23:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you need to replace them with stack stacks
20:23:21 * Sgeo_ would think Deewiant would know that
20:23:22 <zzo38> I have not ever won at 100LEVEL though, even at the easiest difficulty level I cannot make more than 750 points
20:23:24 <Deewiant> Just make a stack of whatever stacks you had
20:23:24 <pikhq> Also, 98-Fungespace is hard to do efficiently.\
20:23:34 <Deewiant> You don't need to change your previous stacks
20:23:39 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure what datastructure I'd *like* to use.
20:23:46 <Sgeo_> pikhq, list of tuples?
20:23:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, You need to change code using it to use the stack stacks though
20:24:04 <zzo38> If I could compile NetHack perhaps I would fix some things
20:24:06 <Sgeo_> first number x, second is y, ...
20:24:08 <Deewiant> You don't necessarily even need to do that
20:24:09 <zzo38> But it won't compile
20:24:12 <Sgeo_> Actualy, that's not that efficient
20:24:22 <pikhq> Sgeo_: That's *horribly* inefficient. :)
20:24:31 <zzo38> I followed the instructions but it still won't compile
20:24:35 <Deewiant> Just make your previous stack be something that gives the top of the stack stack
20:24:42 <AnMaster> zzo38, is that on linux or windows?
20:24:46 <zzo38> I mean, fix some things how I wanted it, possibly change the name a bit for that purpose
20:24:50 <AnMaster> if on windows: give up, it is pointless
20:25:03 <zzo38> It says I can do it on MinGW but it doesn't work
20:25:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, well there are windows binaries
20:25:13 <ais523> I've compiled NetHack on Windows before, but I used cygwin
20:25:15 <zzo38> I know there are windows binaries
20:25:18 <ais523> and built a UNIX build, not a Windows build
20:25:26 <pikhq> (note: I want to be able to compile the current ray of execution into a single array of threaded code, and cache this. That'd be fairly simple to do if it weren't for the darned non-cardinal IP deltas)
20:25:33 <AnMaster> ais523, a cygwin one? Or cross compiled to linux?
20:25:35 <zzo38> But binaries aren't source codes
20:25:36 * Sgeo_ has no clue how to make a funge editor
20:25:43 <ais523> AnMaster: a cygwin one
20:25:44 <Deewiant> Arguably if you're building on cygwin you're not building on Windows
20:25:45 <AnMaster> cross compiling from cygwin to linux
20:26:03 <Deewiant> pikhq: The ray will change often enough that I don't think that's worthwhile
20:26:04 <ais523> why would I crosscompile to Linux from a Windows system, when I have a perfectly good Linux system to compile from?
20:26:15 <Sgeo_> Hm, 32-bit integers for -98, right? I can just say it's UTF-32
20:26:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it still compiles to dlls instead of *.so and *.exe in the PE format and so on
20:26:19 <pikhq> Deewiant: Note, "caching".
20:26:32 <Deewiant> Caching a couple of recent rays will probably work, yes
20:26:32 <zzo38> I want to add some additional modes, remove race/class combination restriction, add some more classes, and add feature to type in the name of any kind of creature in the game to make your character as that kind
20:26:33 <Sgeo_> Wait, no, UTF-32 is unsigned, hm
20:26:34 <pikhq> Meaning that in theory it could often just pull the threaded code out of cache.
20:27:12 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Unspecified, but fungespace cells must be the same size as stack cells.
20:27:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, you need to handle writes to funge space correctly
20:27:19 <AnMaster> not only from p but from other ones too
20:27:27 <AnMaster> such as s and various fingerprints
20:27:47 <pikhq> Obviously modification of the funge space would invalidate at least parts of the cache.
20:27:58 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you can't read mycology if you want input files to be in UTF-32
20:28:05 <AnMaster> you would have to convert it first
20:28:07 <pikhq> ... Hey, I've got an idea. 8-bit Funge-98. :P
20:28:17 <zzo38> In one year, FreeGeek will give me another computer and I will install Linux From Scratch on that one (it comes with Ubuntu but we can change the installation)
20:28:22 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, hm, what does Mycology do, exactly?
20:28:35 <Sgeo_> I mean, that it's not UTF-32
20:28:41 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, test suite for befunge-98 (and 93 too. but the 98 part is *much* larger)
20:28:55 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, I knew that
20:28:57 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, it is useful to find bugs. In fact it is crucial for it
20:29:05 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you asked me what it did
20:29:14 <pikhq> Actually, no, it's not forbidden by the Funge-98 spec.
20:29:17 <Deewiant> It's not UTF-32 in that it uses one byte, not four bytes, for each ASCII char :-P
20:29:26 <alise> AnMaster: no, you didn't
20:29:30 <pikhq> It states that 32 bits is *typical*.
20:29:35 <alise> Sgeo_: it tests various operations and fingerprints and checks they return the correct results
20:29:57 <Sgeo_> Deewiant, thanks for answering what I meant to ask
20:30:01 * Sgeo_ slaps everyone else
20:30:24 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: But, isn't that pretty much a given for just about every text file
20:30:32 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you could have stated your question more clearly
20:30:34 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: I'm not sure what you wanted to ask
20:30:45 <Sgeo_> Deewiant, yes, it is
20:31:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm... "If the underlying memory mechanism cannot provide this (e.g. no more memory is available to be allocated,) the interpreter should complain with an error and do what it can to recover, (but not necessarily gracefully). "
20:31:12 <Sgeo_> Should be easy to read it as UTF-8 and operate internally as UTF-16
20:31:23 <Sgeo_> Well, not UTF-16, due to the sign issue
20:31:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, you don't have to reflect for everything
20:31:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would that be true for abort() or segfault? they are errors, and it failed to recover
20:31:46 <Sgeo_> Something that can be mapped to unicode code points would be nice, though
20:32:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but continuing with buggy behaviour and no OOM message would not be?
20:32:20 <zzo38> Does Windows have a SIGPIPE signal?
20:32:37 <Deewiant> zzo38: I'm pretty sure it doesn't
20:32:49 <zzo38> Deewiant: That's what I thought
20:32:57 * Sgeo_ stll does not know how to make a funge editor
20:33:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, "16 bit and 8 bit versions are discussed as separate variations on Funge-98."
20:33:09 <Sgeo_> And is it wrong to call Befunge-93 a funge?
20:33:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, plus you can't do any of the existing fingerprints with less than 32 bits
20:33:20 <Sgeo_> And call my app AndFunge-93
20:33:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: Still not forbidden.
20:33:31 <zzo38> Because, sometimes MinGW takes up 100% CPU even when the window is closed and stuff, so I assumed that is because Windows doesn't have a SIGPIPE signal
20:33:37 <pikhq> Just not very useful if you want any fingerprints.
20:33:38 <ais523> Sgeo_: "funge" itself is a very general term
20:33:43 <ais523> "Funge" is more specific, "Funge-98" more so
20:33:51 <ais523> and there's "fungeoid" which is more general still
20:33:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh and you couldn't fit mycology in 127x127 cells
20:34:05 <AnMaster> yeah that is what you get from positive
20:34:17 <pikhq> So it would be bloody useless. :)
20:34:27 <pikhq> Easy to implement though.
20:34:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes anything less than 32 bits is bloody useless
20:34:33 <Deewiant> I'm not sure if Mycology would accept a 16-bit funge
20:34:34 <pikhq> I'm not going to do that then.
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20:35:08 <AnMaster> "1 cell containing flags (env). " in http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/website_funge98.html
20:35:09 <Deewiant> 1y2% is whether the interpreter is concurrent, IIRC
20:35:11 <ais523> it's basically a dump of all the info about the interpreter and program state
20:35:18 <AnMaster> there is a version with readable font and bg colours
20:35:20 <ais523> but you can ask for just one entry, rather than all of it
20:35:22 <pikhq> 16-bit *maybe*. Though it would require *pretty much* the same work as a 32-bit Funge.
20:35:28 <AnMaster> ah yes here: http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
20:35:31 <pikhq> (16-bit Fungespace is 4 gigs?)
20:35:58 <Deewiant> pikhq: 2^16 * 2^16 * (2 bytes)
20:36:00 <Sgeo_> Is there a Mycology for Unefunge-98 and um, the 3d one?
20:36:09 <pikhq> Deewiant: Ah, right.
20:36:19 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you don't ask for an entry, you ask for a cell. So if something takes two cells or varying number of cells you have to take care of that
20:36:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and cfunge will probably get faster y-as-pick soon
20:36:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, something that can't be done without a huge PITA if you implement EVAR
20:37:12 <pikhq> Which is *almost* feasible as a single array on modern computers.
20:37:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that the size of env vars isn't constant and you just can't add/substract easily, remember that you might be changing an existing one
20:37:47 <pikhq> Deewiant: But pricy.
20:37:48 <Deewiant> But most people's machines can't handle it
20:37:54 <AnMaster> (it's feasible yes but a huga PITA)
20:38:04 <Deewiant> I've got 8 gigs myself but that's not quite enough
20:38:05 <pikhq> And 32-bit Fungespace? That must be sparse.
20:38:15 <Sgeo_> Absolute Vector sounds.. interesting
20:38:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, not exactly, not on >64 bit machines
20:38:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You can just recalculate the size when EVAR changes them
20:39:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: I don't have exabytes of RAM handy.
20:39:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and you can't optimise pushing env vars into a memcpy() :P
20:39:15 <Deewiant> Not IMO... you have to calculate it when y is called anyway
20:39:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? EVAR should mess it up?
20:40:01 <Deewiant> Just recalculate the env vars in y after EVAR
20:40:06 <pikhq> Actually. Holy fuck.
20:40:18 <pikhq> 32-bit Fungespace is larger than 64-bit addressing.
20:40:39 <zzo38> I have other question, do you know in Darwin/Mac OS X what the apple vector contains (other than apple[0] being the path of the program)?
20:40:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: 64-bit addressing *bytes* is larger than 32+32 bit addressing *words*. :)
20:41:05 <zzo38> Do you know what apple[1] does (if anything)?
20:41:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed. Just make it use 32 bit words with a byte index
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20:42:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway you need a small amount of memory too for the program running it, unless you implement that in hardware
20:43:07 <Deewiant> Just hide the program in some random place nobody will use anyway
20:43:12 <pikhq> Stupid idea, then. 32-bit Fungespace with smaller-than-32-bit memory, so I can say "fuck sparse datastructures"
20:43:14 <alise> zzo38: Which apple vector?
20:43:27 <zzo38> alise: The fourth parameter to main
20:43:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is wrong with sparse data structures?
20:43:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: They're more work than array[foo][bar]!
20:43:54 <alise> zzo38: No clue. Have you got the manual pages?
20:44:00 <pikhq> Also, they are more slow to index.
20:44:15 <AnMaster> what? main() takes 4 parameters on OS X?
20:44:26 <ais523> five on Windows, doesn't it?
20:44:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: main() takes 3 on normal UNIX.
20:44:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, and I consider that pretty wtf too
20:44:46 <pikhq> And on Linux there's another "parameter" after envp.
20:44:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh? and what one is that?
20:45:02 <pikhq> ELF option vector.
20:45:06 <zzo38> I don't have Mac OS X so I don't know. But I know that I think the apple[0] is useful
20:45:09 <pikhq> It's after the terminating NULL of envp.
20:45:22 <AnMaster> well that isn't a parameter then
20:45:31 <pikhq> Thus the scare quotes.
20:45:41 <ais523> still, what does it do, specifically?
20:45:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, what does the ELF options contain?
20:45:51 <ais523> (and after the NULL of envp is a pretty stealthy place to hide data)
20:46:06 <alise> zzo38: name of the progam is just argv[0], sort of
20:46:08 <zzo38> What does the ELF option vector do?
20:46:12 <AnMaster> I never heard of this before btw
20:46:28 <Deewiant> ais523: Five on Windows? What would the extras be?
20:46:28 <pikhq> It contains a few different things... The one that I *remember* is that it contains the prelinking data for the dynamic linker.
20:46:44 <ais523> Deewiant: they're completely different from the standard ones
20:46:50 <ais523> and contain things like window handles, etc
20:47:03 <Deewiant> Aren't you talking about WinMain now
20:47:03 <zzo38> alise: No, argv[0] only contains the name of the program as it is typed, which does not even necessarily have to be the actual name of the file at all, and won't necessarily contain path information. apple[0] contains the real path of the program (although it can be a relative path)
20:47:11 <Deewiant> Surely the ordinary main() doesn't receive that stuff?
20:47:15 <ais523> ah, it's four, not five
20:47:22 <ais523> and it's just called WinMain by convention, it's still the main entry point
20:47:28 <ais523> they don't call it main to avoid scaring people
20:47:37 <Deewiant> But you can still have a C main that takes the ordinary two
20:47:40 <ais523> hmm, I wonder why I thought it was 5?
20:47:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, where is that option vector documented?
20:48:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Somewhere *deep* in kernel documentation.
20:48:27 <ais523> also, nCmdShow is a really stupid idea AFAICT
20:48:38 <ais523> I can sort-of see the reason for it, but sort-of feel that it should have been handled really differently
20:48:56 <pikhq> Hrm. Seems I have the wrong name...
20:48:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, isn't meant for normal user space then?
20:49:07 <fizzie> Also no window handles in WinMain; the app doesn't have any windows at that point. Just application instance handles.
20:49:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's handled by the dynamic linker.
20:49:25 <Sgeo_> So -98 is not entirely backwards compatible with -93
20:49:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, very inefficient then, having to scan for the NULL there
20:49:54 <pikhq> There's also the Linux entry gate in there.
20:50:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is the linux entry gate?
20:50:19 <alise> Sgeo_: Mostly just SGML-spaces
20:50:22 <alise> which you need for infinite wrapping
20:50:38 <pikhq> http://refspecs.freestandards.org/LSB_1.3.0/IA64/spec/auxiliaryvector.html
20:50:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, pseudo one. And that is in /proc/pid/maps as [vdso]
20:51:16 <ais523> it's fun to say out loud
20:51:17 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, it's just strange, that's all
20:51:20 <pikhq> The location of it is passed in the auxiliary vector.
20:51:36 <AnMaster> ais523, is it? I done that I didn't find it funny
20:51:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, x86_64 also has [vsyscall]
20:51:53 <pikhq> Also, it's only after envp because start shoves it there.
20:52:15 <ais523> AnMaster: "what sort of window to create" makes a load of baseless assumptions
20:52:23 <ais523> I mean, how should the GIMP react to that, for instance?
20:52:23 <pikhq> (arguments to main do not exist until start makes them)
20:52:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: "what sort of window to create" makes a load of baseless assumptions <-- is that in reply to nCmdShow?
20:52:59 <ais523> oh, conversation mixup
20:53:10 <ais523> this happens when you try to keep all your IRC conversations in memory simultaneously
20:53:55 <AnMaster> ais523, just quote the thing it is in reply to
20:54:10 <AnMaster> just mentioning nCmdShow there would have worked
20:54:57 <fizzie> ais523, AnMaster: Maybe use some sort of conversation-indication [tags] in every message.
20:55:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, we tried to implement that when freenode was having huge lag some months ago
20:55:30 <AnMaster> (didn't work out well because ais523 refused to do it properly)
20:55:46 <fizzie> Like people do [PATCH] on mailing lists and so on.
20:55:59 <Sgeo_> In the { definition, what is meant by "storage offset"?
20:56:00 <ais523> fizzie: AnMaster tried to unilaterally implement a SYN-ACK-like numering scheme for IRC comments
20:56:13 <ais523> which was completely impractical as far as I could tell
20:56:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, I was suggeting UUIDs in the form of <integer> where even was one person and odd was the other person
20:56:22 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: It affects g and p among others
20:56:27 <AnMaster> and to refer to a specific message you would use that
20:56:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think I did SYN ACK ...
20:56:58 <AnMaster> but yes TCP sequence number I guess is similar
20:57:07 <AnMaster> but I don't know enough about that to be sure
20:58:20 <Sgeo_> Hm, I guess I could do something like #v{
20:58:36 <Sgeo_> To test if I have enough memory, and if I don't, go down the v path?
20:58:59 <ais523> SYN ACK could work during massive lag
20:59:03 <fizzie> #vX is common idiom for any reflecting X.
20:59:26 <ais523> give the number that you think your message should be (in your own personal numbering scheme), and the first number you haven't seen from the other person (in their numbering scheme)
20:59:40 <ais523> you can give a third number if you like, the number of the message you're actually replying to)
21:00:20 <ais523> then, retransmit if you see someone claim they haven't seen something you've already said
21:00:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that depends on what else is on the stack
21:00:28 <ais523> this can lead to false positives, but not false negatives I think
21:00:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it reflects due to being unimplemented... such as t
21:01:13 <fizzie> You can do ]X when going upwards, but I haven't seen that done often, even if it's quite compact.
21:01:35 <ais523> AnMaster: thinking you didn't need to retransmit when actually you did
21:01:39 <Deewiant> I think I do something like that a few times in Mycology
21:01:45 <AnMaster> where you have error handling to the left
21:01:56 <AnMaster> and the normal path enters from above or below the >
21:02:09 <Deewiant> Yes, that's fairly common as well
21:02:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not quite as common as #^X though (plus the variants)
21:02:43 <Deewiant> That's fairly equivalent to plain X
21:02:57 <ais523> unless you're hitting the # vertically for some other reason
21:03:08 <ais523> Deewiant: btw, does mycology test a single ; on a line anywhere?
21:03:13 <AnMaster> you need something like: #;#;X for that to be of any interest, and even then it isn't of much intereste
21:03:17 <zzo38> Is it allowed for a stream device in Linux to be executed as a program?
21:03:25 <Deewiant> I'm not sure if it explicitly tries a single one
21:03:27 <fizzie> Gah, Deewiant-speed strikes again. And I did mean the ...;...#;X case, just abbreviated.
21:03:29 <AnMaster> zzo38, what is a stream device?
21:03:44 <Deewiant> #"X is an alternative to #;X when you're out of ;-room
21:03:45 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know; there's no technical reason why it couldn't be given how ELF works, but people might have decided that it's just too insane
21:03:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes that would work
21:03:56 <fizzie> A character device, maybe?
21:04:00 <ais523> AnMaster: something keyboard-like, like stdin or the read end of a fifo
21:04:11 <Deewiant> If you're already using ; to cross over that code you can't put ; in it
21:04:17 <AnMaster> ais523, not something like /dev/ttyS1?
21:04:26 <Deewiant> And if " is also used, you're screwed
21:04:35 <ais523> AnMaster: that's a character device, but I think they all work stream-like anyway
21:04:39 <AnMaster> you can use any of the other variants
21:04:49 <ais523> I don't think "stream device" is a defined term, but I have an idea of what it means anyway
21:04:51 <Deewiant> I don't /think/ I've used exactly #"X in Mycology anywhere
21:04:52 <AnMaster> ais523, well unlike a block device yes
21:04:59 <ais523> Deewiant: you can still use x to jump over code, though
21:05:01 <Deewiant> But I have used " in lieu of ; a number of times
21:05:11 <zzo38> Does that command work dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb
21:05:22 <Deewiant> Since you have to push the arguments
21:05:32 <ais523> zzo38: don't try it; it'd overwrite one of your disks with zeros, quite possibly your hard disk
21:05:38 <Sgeo_> g and p should really be before the {} stuff.. the {} stuff talks about the storage vector
21:05:49 <ais523> and normally you specify a number of bytes to overwrite, and things like block sizes
21:05:59 <Deewiant> Especially as they're much more commonly used
21:06:10 <zzo38> I was going to blank a disk like dd but they told me to use mkfs.msdos instead so it will be formatted. But, when I put the disk in the other computer it wouldn't work anyways so I had to format it anyways
21:06:53 * Sgeo_ isn't sure how well the File I/O stuff could be made to work on Android
21:07:13 <zzo38> I got a "cannot create directory entry" error when I tried to use the disk on a DOS computer, so I had to reformat it again anyways.
21:08:26 <fizzie> If you don't especially care about every single byte being zeroes, wiping just the beginning of the disk is usually enough to make it look empty. dd'ing a terabyte of zeroes is not very fast.
21:09:07 <zzo38> It is a floppy disk, it would be slow of course
21:09:21 <zzo38> But using mkfs was faster than the format command in DOS/Windows
21:11:21 <pikhq> Well, yes. The format command 0-fills the drive.
21:11:36 <pikhq> (except for the filesystem data structures)
21:11:45 <fizzie> It has the /Q flag though.
21:12:20 <zzo38> Using /Q does make it more fast
21:12:28 <zzo38> Is /Q like the mkfs command in Linux does?
21:13:28 <AnMaster> that will just add a new FAT file system on it
21:13:38 <AnMaster> and who wants a FAT one anyway :/
21:13:54 <AnMaster> also what is the diff between mkfs.vfat and mkfs.msdos? I have no idea
21:14:01 <Sgeo_> Funge-98 fingerprints remind me of PSOX
21:14:27 <Deewiant> PSOX reminds me of Funge-98 fingerprints
21:14:28 <Sgeo_> Actually, I think PSOX stole handprints from Funge-98
21:14:28 <AnMaster> <fizzie> If you don't especially care about every single byte being zeroes, wiping just the beginning of the disk is usually enough to make it look empty. dd'ing a terabyte of zeroes is not very fast. <-- you should dd from your hardware rng instead ;P
21:14:45 <Sgeo_> (not fingerprints though)
21:14:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, /dev/sdb is _not_ a floppy unless you have some crazy usb floppy device
21:15:05 <AnMaster> zzo38, /dev/fd0 is probably your floppy device
21:15:18 <AnMaster> and that you may want to low level format in some cases
21:15:44 <ais523> sdb's probably a USB disk
21:15:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: Probably different default args, like with mkfs.ext2/3/4.
21:15:52 <ais523> although, theoretically could be a hard disk
21:15:54 <AnMaster> <zzo38> Is /Q like the mkfs command in Linux does? <-- probably.
21:15:56 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined.
21:15:57 -!- |MigoMipo| has quit (Excess Flood).
21:16:10 <AnMaster> ais523, for me it was a harddrive until some year ago or so
21:16:21 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined.
21:16:22 -!- |MigoMipo| has quit (Excess Flood).
21:16:22 <zzo38> Yes it is a USB floppy drive
21:16:43 <AnMaster> ais523, you found it funny that I wasn't angry over lost data, instead I was angry over kernel panic due to swap being on that disk
21:16:46 -!- |MigoMipo| has joined.
21:16:50 <AnMaster> (yes I did have recent backups)
21:16:50 <pikhq> ais523: IDE and SATA both go through libata now, which puts devices at /dev/sd*.
21:17:14 <zzo38> There is two computers I need to transfer files, one has a working floppy drive but no working USB or network, the other has USB but no floppy drive so that's why I bought the USB floppy drive and the disks from FreeGeek
21:17:28 <AnMaster> I haven't used hda for ages now
21:17:34 <AnMaster> must have been over a year by now?
21:17:46 <Sgeo_> Is there an active Funge-98 Register somewhere?
21:17:46 <zzo38> When I connected the USB to this computer (WinXP), it appeared as drive B:
21:18:09 <AnMaster> zzo38, okay, well I have no idea if low level fdformat will work on the usb floppy
21:18:12 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: There may still be the one inactive one; can't remember the URL
21:18:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: Your ages must be pretty short, if a year is several.
21:18:32 <AnMaster> zzo38, also must be an old computer with no network or such
21:18:51 <Sgeo_> PSOX doesn't require a central registry =P
21:19:14 <ais523> AnMaster: a while back I used mkfs.msdos on a USB stick and it seemed to work
21:19:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:19:25 <pikhq> Sgeo_: So, UUID then? :P
21:19:26 <ais523> after quadruple-checking to make sure I'd got the device it was on correct
21:19:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes quite. Age of early 2010 is now at an end and we are in the dawn of the age of early-mid 2010!
21:19:36 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: PSOX isn't extensible either (or is it?)
21:19:37 <ais523> also, reformatting your swap partition while the system is running is amusin
21:19:50 <ais523> why didn't mkfs notice? because it wasn't mounted?
21:19:59 <ais523> (IIRC, mkfs needs /two/ force options to reformat a drive while it's mounted)
21:20:08 <pikhq> Sgeo_: So, URLs, UUIDs, ISBNs, etc. :)
21:20:12 <zzo38> Yes, actually that other computer is Win98 and it is in a different building than this computer also. But it doesn't have network connection and the USB doesn't work (even though it has USB, but it doesn't work)
21:20:20 <Sgeo_> At least, similarly to Befunge, but since there's only one existant PSOX interpreter, it's easy to write extensions that will work on all existant PSOX interpreters
21:20:33 <AnMaster> ais523, but you mean it wasn't the correct device?
21:20:35 <pikhq> ais523: Weird; swap devices are mounted.
21:20:48 <ais523> oh, AnMaster used dd rather than mkfs
21:20:52 <ais523> that's why mkfs didn't notice
21:21:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't overwritten swap
21:21:07 <AnMaster> ais523, the disk *died* that is what happened
21:21:12 <Sgeo_> There is an optional PSOX registry that allows use of psox: URIs for identifiers
21:21:33 <AnMaster> ais523, it went *chulunk* *chulunk* *chulunk* *chulunk* *chulunk* *chulunk* *chulunk* *chulunk* when I woke up
21:21:33 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...).
21:21:41 <AnMaster> so some sort of mechanical fault
21:22:12 <AnMaster> and this was probably 1.5 years ago or so
21:23:17 <fizzie> I think mke2fs also tries to check if the block device is just generally speaking in use (opened, possibly), not just whether it is mounted.
21:23:26 <Sgeo_> What's the TRDS fingerprint?
21:23:40 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: See http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html
21:24:26 <alise> TRDS is presumably what drove MKRY to suicide. Ouch, even /my/ barely-extant too-soon nerve fired there.
21:24:35 <alise> I probably should not have sent that line.
21:24:53 <ais523> fizzie: it checks for in-use, and also checks for mounted
21:25:13 <alise> http://www.rcfunge98.com/
21:25:14 <ais523> Sgeo_: try imagining a cross between Prolog and Feather, then fail
21:25:20 <alise> But hey, new RC/Funge release, Deewiant.
21:25:29 <alise> Abandon your eyes before clicking.
21:25:47 <ais523> Sgeo_: Mike Riley, original author of RC/Funge
21:25:51 <alise> [[# It looks like Mike was trying to implement a Funge-108 mode, but I could not find any documentation on it in the files that were given to me. If anybody has any information on Funge-108 I would be interested in hearing from you. ]]
21:25:55 <alise> ^echo # It looks like Mike was trying to implement a Funge-108 mode, but I could not find any documentation on it in the files that were given to me. If anybody has any information on Funge-108 I would be interested in hearing from you.
21:25:55 <fungot> # It looks like Mike was trying to implement a Funge-108 mode, but I could not find any documentation on it in the files that were given to me. If anybody has any information on Funge-108 I would be interest ...
21:25:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:26:04 <alise> ^echo AnMaster: ^. I'm so kind, even to assholes!
21:26:04 <fungot> AnMaster: ^. I'm so kind, even to assholes! AnMaster: ^. I'm so kind, even to assholes!
21:26:09 <alise> Fuck yeah, fungot abuse
21:26:09 <fungot> alise: i use slatex tex2page, and then
21:26:24 <alise> ^echo http://www.rcfunge98.com/
21:26:24 <fungot> http://www.rcfunge98.com/ http://www.rcfunge98.com/
21:26:44 <alise> Deewiant: It is a literal echo, echo, echo, echo...
21:27:00 <pikhq> ^echo ^echo ^echo ^echo
21:27:00 <fungot> ^echo ^echo ^echo ^echo ^echo ^echo
21:27:42 <alise> I guess it isn't really distasteful per se to make reference to her suicide since it was personal choice.
21:28:12 <ais523> it's probably just best to move on
21:28:26 <alise> Such a shame, though.
21:28:40 <alise> Huh, Mini-Funge was replaced by something more powerful in V2?
21:28:51 <alise> I like the idea of writing fingerprints in totally unrestricted Funge.
21:29:02 <alise> Hey, you could implement the fingerprint-writer as a fingerprint itself.
21:29:09 <alise> # Mini-Funge has been scrapped and replaced with an all new dynamic fingerprint engine. Now fingerprints have the full power of the Rc/Funge VM at their fingertips. All commands are now available to fingerprints, including i, o, =, t, fingerprint loading and more.
21:29:39 <Deewiant> It's still Mini-Funge, it just implements everything :-P
21:29:50 <Deewiant> I haven't really looked into it
21:30:19 <alise> Deewiant: I'm imagining some sort of fingerprint-defining fingerprint that has e.g. some opening/closing commands that take a fingerprint name, additional commands that take a string of funge source and a command name, etc.
21:30:35 <alise> That way, you could define fingerprints then use them in the same program; or define multiple fingerprints based on some computation, or even user input.
21:30:51 <AnMaster> "<fungot> AnMaster: ^. I'm so kind, even to assholes! AnMaster: ^. I'm so kind, even to assholes!" <-- wth?
21:30:52 <fungot> AnMaster: i wanted a fnord vector type that would return an ' undefined variable' error... do you have
21:30:55 <Sgeo_> What do good Funge editors look like?
21:30:55 <Deewiant> So we have FING and FNGR; what's that? :-P
21:30:56 <alise> And you could have a "fingerprint inclusion path" by basically loading a bunch of Funge files on startup.
21:31:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think that bot is broken
21:31:07 <alise> Great, I try and help AnMaster and he doesn't even look.
21:31:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, or alise is using it to circumvent /ignore
21:31:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Did you miss the line above
21:31:20 <alise> ^echo # It looks like Mike was trying to implement a Funge-108 mode, but I could not find any documentation on it in the files that were given to me. If anybody has any information on Funge-108 I would be interested in hearing from you.
21:31:20 <fungot> # It looks like Mike was trying to implement a Funge-108 mode, but I could not find any documentation on it in the files that were given to me. If anybody has any information on Funge-108 I would be interest ...
21:31:30 <alise> ^echo If you had paid attention, I was trying to help you; remind me not to do so in future.
21:31:30 <fungot> If you had paid attention, I was trying to help you; remind me not to do so in future. If you had paid attention, I was trying to help you; remind me not to do so in future.
21:31:59 <AnMaster> funge-108 is dead. cpressy was working on a new one
21:32:07 <AnMaster> I don't even have the files any more I think
21:32:09 <alise> ^echo So tell Susan that.
21:32:10 <fungot> So tell Susan that. So tell Susan that.
21:32:26 <AnMaster> fungot!*@* added to ignore list.
21:32:27 <fungot> AnMaster: i'd find that a bit annoying to wait for an ack.
21:32:40 <ais523> perfect quote in context
21:32:52 <pikhq> Bravo, fungot. Bravo.
21:32:53 <fungot> pikhq: i'm off for a 5 minutes break, but there are also video lectures from 4a supposed to be a
21:33:01 <ais523> `addquote <AnMaster> fungot!*@* added to ignore list. <fungot> AnMaster: i'd find that a bit annoying to wait for an ack.
21:33:01 <fungot> ais523: there is a way to deliver applications. :) i was hoping one ps would catch the other.
21:33:06 <HackEgo> 152|<AnMaster> fungot!*@* added to ignore list. <fungot> AnMaster: i'd find that a bit annoying to wait for an ack.
21:33:21 <alise> So, for future reference: Mention something relevant to AnMaster in the only way you can, to try and help him; then, AnMaster will get pissy and ignore the bot you used to do it.
21:33:26 <alise> Conclusion: Never help AnMaster. Ever.
21:33:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's a couple of other echoy commands there.
21:33:56 <pikhq> alise: I suggest you go and write a Befunge-98 interpreter orders of magnitude faster than Cfunge then. :P
21:33:58 <fungot> Tentacles entacles ntacles tacles acles cles les es s
21:34:11 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:34:11 <alise> pikhq: Deewiant already did that, in C. Asztal, in C++.
21:34:14 <alise> CCBI 2, Stinkhorn.
21:34:15 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
21:34:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway if you would please make fungot ignore alise/ehird or tell him not to use the bot for /ignore circumvention
21:34:19 <fungot> AnMaster: if you have access to any java library imaginable. normally i never eat.
21:34:28 <fungot> also thislso thisso thiso this thisthishisiss
21:34:29 <Sgeo_> alise, would it be too painful to ask hypothetical Funge programmers on Android to use the trackball? Are there Android phones that don't have trackball or trackpad?
21:34:35 <alise> I think AnMaster is upset because emailing is work, and I gave him reason to email somebody.
21:34:40 <alise> Deewiant: Er, of course.
21:34:45 <alise> pikhq: Quick, keep spelling it Cfunge!
21:34:53 <fizzie> ^reverb and reverberation
21:34:53 <fungot> aanndd rreevveerrbbeerraattiioonn
21:34:56 <ais523> you know what; I'll tell Susan
21:35:01 <alise> He refuses to use the correct pronouns for my nick, so there is no reason to use the correct capitalisation for his interpreter.
21:35:15 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have her mail so I couldn't tell her anyway. *shrug*
21:35:17 <alise> Sgeo_: they all have some sort of ball i think
21:35:27 <alise> If you have any questions, comments, or general criticims, I may be contacted at:
21:35:27 <alise> rcfunge98 <AT> hotmail <DOT> com
21:35:36 <alise> ^echo If you have any questions, comments, or general criticims, I may be contacted at: rcfunge98 <AT> hotmail <DOT> com
21:35:36 <fungot> If you have any questions, comments, or general criticims, I may be contacted at: rcfunge98 <AT> hotmail <DOT> com If you have any questions, comments, or general criticims, I may be contacted at: rcfung ...
21:35:38 <alise> Hopefully that annoys me some more.
21:35:44 <Sgeo_> Although I think that if someone types, say, v, and keeps typing, it should start going downwards
21:35:48 <ais523> she(?) should probably know, and I pretty much know the situation with Befunge-108
21:35:59 <Sgeo_> Better yet, buttons to change the direction of typing
21:36:13 <AnMaster> ais523, cpressy was working on befunge-111 or whatever he called it
21:36:14 <alise> ais523: she doesn't read here, though
21:36:24 <Sgeo_> What's Befunge-108
21:36:31 <AnMaster> ais523, http://catseye.tc/lab/Befunge-111-Specification-DRAFT.txt
21:36:32 <alise> Sgeo_: AnMaster's idiotic folly
21:36:33 -!- fungotCCBI has joined.
21:36:48 <Deewiant> D'oh, it's still called fungot
21:36:48 <fungot> Deewiant: you want more? and some other oddities, like emacs/ xemacs on windows...
21:36:58 <alise> What should it be called?
21:37:09 <Deewiant> I was intending it as an optional ignore-workarounder
21:37:09 <fungot> pikhq: i have concluded that, despite scheme's beauty in 5 minutes, and hackedly.
21:37:27 <Deewiant> pikhq: Doesn't have the chat model stuff that only fizzie has
21:38:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's in my git. I mean, the tools, not the models; but irc logs are public too. Maybe a matter of fiddling, though.
21:39:28 <Sgeo_> I should probably have the keyboard contain mostly the commands
21:39:42 <fizzie> Admittedly if you retrained it from the public logs, it wouldn't speak Finnish every now and then.
21:39:43 <alise> Deewiant: Does it have a non-echoy ^echo?
21:39:47 <alise> Or should I define one?
21:40:11 <fizzie> alise: You can just use ^ul (whatever)S
21:40:16 <alise> fizzie: Yes, still.
21:40:24 <alise> Let's see if I can remember the command-writing stuff.
21:40:25 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:40:29 <Deewiant> It also doesn't have fizzie's state file
21:40:46 <alise> which is faster, bf or ul?
21:40:50 <fizzie> fungot: It's like you, only newborn.
21:40:51 <fungot> fizzie: me and mooz both bought the collected fnord thing from stockholm... umm, svn, i want to
21:40:58 <alise> after all, this is AnMaster we're talking about; speed /matters/
21:41:07 <alise> oh, wait, ul can't take input of course
21:41:11 <fizzie> ul thing doesn't do in..
21:41:44 <Deewiant> Like said it's still ~fungot@*
21:41:45 <fungot> Deewiant: ( that's because i got distracted by other projects they're working on it but i'll keep it in mind. :d sorry, usaian fnord popping up again.
21:41:51 <Deewiant> So it'll be blocked by his ignore
21:42:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: Do a ]save though, I want to see if it works.
21:42:31 <alise> Deewiant: Oh well.
21:43:07 <fizzie> Hnm, I think it should reply something.
21:43:08 <Deewiant> Doesn't seem to have done anything AFAICT
21:43:11 <ais523> I'd imagine BF would be faster than Underload on fungot
21:43:11 <fungot> ais523: but he's been very successful, and there is no
21:43:24 <ais523> although it depends on how fast STRN is
21:43:35 <ais523> and which can have more efficient programs written in it
21:43:46 <ais523> clearly, we need to submit BF-written programs to the alioth shootout
21:43:51 -!- fungotCFUN has joined.
21:44:07 <fizzie> Oh, my hostmask is *again* wrong. I really should fix those reverses.
21:44:08 <alise> No! I can't annoy AnMaster with his own tool!
21:44:17 <alise> FNGR is the best-practice fingerprint-mangling fingerprint, isn't it?
21:44:18 <Deewiant> That one didn't do anything either.
21:44:37 <alise> But FING is so tiny and FNGR so big.
21:44:45 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
21:44:48 -!- fizzie has joined.
21:45:17 <fizzie> At least I am myself again.
21:46:23 <ais523> could be a fun benchmark: get fungot running on every Mycology-completing interp simultaneously in the channel on the same prefix
21:46:23 <fungot> ais523: thats because you're still in boston, perth is the most common complaint i hear is the syntax for mark in an ant?
21:46:27 <fizzie> Right, it tries to write data/fungot.dat.
21:46:27 <fungot> fizzie: that's what i was arguing against forth!!! i want a mapreduce cluster now for some reason.
21:46:36 <fizzie> Was just checking the filename.
21:46:42 <Deewiant> Dunno why CFUN didn't do it, though. Maybe because CCBI opened it faster
21:46:47 <Sgeo_> How difficult could it be to write a Befunge-98 interp?
21:46:52 <ais523> then give them all a time-consuming command simultaneously and see how long it takes
21:46:53 <Deewiant> And then it couldn't open it because it was already open, or something
21:47:00 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: Famous last words... ;-)
21:47:03 <ais523> Sgeo_: have a look at all the interps which failed Mycology horribly
21:47:11 <alise> Hmm, it's annoying that there isn't a Befunge-98 instruction for "increase y delta, set x delta to 0"
21:47:27 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: Quote from CCBI's page: "It took me over a year—a fair bit longer than I expected"
21:47:40 <fizzie> And see there, fungot wants to be parallelized. Troubling signs of world-takeover.
21:47:40 <fungot> fizzie: sicp is hard though. my car radio sucks, so i have to get up
21:47:43 <Deewiant> But then, I was writing Mycology at the same time, and reverse-engineering fingerprints etc.
21:48:04 <Deewiant> ]ul (xxxx):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:(a~a*~~^)(:^):^
21:48:07 <pikhq> Sgeo_: It was a minor pain just passing Mycology-93. :P
21:48:22 <pikhq> And more work to actually implement it correctly.
21:48:41 <alise> Deewiant: OR IS THERE???
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21:49:21 -!- fungotCCBI has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:49:32 <alise> Deewiant: So there isn't? Darn.
21:49:51 <Deewiant> alise: For increasing dy, yes; for setting dx to zero at the same time, don't think so
21:49:56 <alise> Hmm, I guess you can kind of do it, as long as you enter the block on column two:
21:50:17 <alise> but that just goes down, down, downydown
21:50:23 <alise> what's diagonal bottom-right?
21:50:29 -!- fungotCFUN has joined.
21:50:31 -!- fungotCCBI has joined.
21:50:51 <alise> set the IP to start moving bottomly-rightwards
21:51:00 <fizzie> 11x is what AnMaster uses a lot. :p
21:51:09 <alise> fizzie: AnMaster uses a lot howso? :P
21:51:19 <fizzie> 11x at EOL and > in the beginning.
21:51:38 <alise> Oh; I was thinking:
21:51:41 <fizzie> I've seen him do that and complained about the non-befungosity.
21:51:52 <fizzie> Matter of taste, I guess.
21:51:57 <alise> I have a legitimate use-case, though; defining a bunch of fingerprint instructions.
21:52:00 <Sgeo_> Why is there a separate file for Befunge-93 only, if the 80x25 square of the beginning of main Mycology is Befunge-93?
21:52:05 <alise> You kinda want them lined up.
21:52:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, incorrect. I used it in a few cases, mostly very linear test cases with no branches.
21:52:12 <Deewiant> There is no separate file for Befunge-93 only.
21:52:14 <AnMaster> and > in the beginning won't work
21:52:26 <alise> Hmm, proper Befunge code has no extraneous spaces, doesn't it?
21:52:28 <Sgeo_> What's mycorand.bf then?
21:52:29 <alise> I mean idiomatic :-)
21:52:32 <AnMaster> (well not last and first obviously
21:52:44 <Sgeo_> If your interpreter is Befunge-93 only, run mycorand.bf and examine the
21:52:55 <alise> Deewiant: As in, just to separate code up.
21:53:06 <Deewiant> Sgeo_: It doesn't say that's /all/ you should do.
21:53:24 <Deewiant> It just so happens that in Befunge-98 we can load files so you don't have to do it separately.
21:53:34 <Deewiant> alise: Well yeah, that's up to you. :-P
21:53:40 <Sgeo_> What if my Befunge-98 interpreter doesn't load files?
21:53:48 <Deewiant> Then you should run it separately.
21:53:56 <Deewiant> I should probably note that in the readme.
21:54:03 <Sgeo_> Yes, you should >.>
21:54:21 <Deewiant> That section in the readme dates from before Mycology actually checked whether i and o are supported.
21:54:24 <alise> Deewiant: You should make a webservice thingy for fungify.
21:55:07 <pikhq> Sgeo_: mycorand.bf tests ?
21:55:29 <pikhq> Yes, the "go in a random direction" operator.
21:55:45 <alise> It would be bad style for a fingerprint to take a 0"gnirts" and then reverse it itself so that you can write it normal-forwards, wouldn't it?
21:57:04 <Deewiant> ]ul (xxxx):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:(a~a*~~^)(:^):^
21:57:34 <Deewiant> I don't understand the question
21:57:41 <Deewiant> You mean so that you should write 0"string" instead?
21:57:42 <Sgeo_> % and / are only tested on 98? Why?
21:57:59 <Deewiant> Because they require user input in 93
21:58:09 <Deewiant> alise: Well yes, that's bad style because it's completely incompatible :-P
21:58:23 <alise> Deewiant: But in this case the string is the code for a fingerprint instruction.
21:58:31 <Sgeo_> Why not just do a "Hello"0< ?
21:58:31 <alise> And writing Befunge code backwards is, um, not fun.
21:58:50 <alise> Sgeo_: Well, because you have to get to the < first.
21:59:01 <Deewiant> alise: Well, then your " is not "; why not just make it a different command
21:59:20 <Deewiant> alise: ALTERNATIVELY tell your fingerprint-maker that it expects its argument to be reversed
21:59:56 <alise> Is it kosher to have fingerprint instructions do things like go into a string-ish mode?
22:00:05 <alise> That's feral, surely?
22:00:26 <Deewiant> But so's defining custom fingerprints
22:01:53 <alise> But if it's avoidable...
22:02:14 <Deewiant> Just reverse it in the instruction that wants the string?
22:02:40 <alise> That's what I'm saying.
22:02:48 <alise> http://pastie.org/923810.txt?key=ww3ktz3y2aqxbuk0suvgmg Here's how it'd be written like that, with 0"string"s.
22:03:06 <alise> Yes, but is it bad style?
22:03:14 <alise> Maybe I should have it take 0"gnirt"s, then have the definition code run backwards; then, it'd be a "string"0.
22:03:20 <Deewiant> Incidentally, I'd use switchmode instead of 11x
22:03:35 <Deewiant> And you don't need those trailing >s
22:03:37 <alise> (You could still have the instruction character first by using swap before I.)
22:03:55 <alise> Switchmode? And right you are.
22:03:58 <Deewiant> I wouldn't consider 0"string" to be bad style
22:04:03 <alise> You said it was :-P
22:04:09 <alise> Or did you mean all base instructions doing that?
22:04:11 <Deewiant> I didn't understand the context
22:04:29 <Deewiant> If I just takes a reversed string, I think that's fine
22:04:35 <alise> What's switchmode?
22:04:56 <Deewiant> Now [ turns into ] when executed and vice versa
22:06:08 <alise> Where's that specced?
22:06:14 <alise> And, uh, I should really memorise what the basic isntructions mean.
22:06:21 <Deewiant> http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/MODE.html
22:06:57 <Deewiant> Note: only supported by CCBI and Rc/Funge-98, AFAIK.
22:06:57 <alise> How would I use that to do line-by-line? Sorry; I'm retarded.
22:07:45 <Deewiant> The [, when hit from north, will take you east
22:07:49 <alise> Re support: excellent.
22:07:56 <Deewiant> It then turns into a ], so that when you hit it from the west, you go south.
22:08:13 <alise> Oh clever. So it'd look like
22:09:02 <alise> So you think 0"string"s are better than running the code backwards?
22:09:19 <alise> Well, ignoring that the [ would have to change
22:09:25 <alise> Just asking for your opinion on idiomaticness
22:09:37 <ais523> besides, you can just run right-to-left with "string"0 if you really care about readability
22:09:40 <Deewiant> Well, 0gnirts seems more idiomatic
22:09:49 <ais523> it's not like you don't end up changing directions loads anyway
22:10:49 <Deewiant> alise: Also, what if the code you want to run contains a 0? :-P
22:11:11 <alise> Deewiant: Does any funge code have a \0 in it, really?
22:11:15 <Sgeo_> Someone should make a PSOX fingerprint, for making interacting with PSOX easier </silly>
22:11:24 <alise> Mycology isn't a fingerprint.
22:11:31 <Deewiant> But no, there's really not much point
22:11:33 <alise> Deewiant: I'm not doing length-pushing; this is meant to make fingerprint creation /easier/.
22:11:41 <pikhq> Mycology has \0 in it.
22:11:45 <alise> Hmm, if I was running right-to-left, how would I do the switchmode stuff?
22:11:49 <Deewiant> Maybe if you want to make an instruction that pushes a line from a file determined at runtime
22:11:54 <Sgeo_> Why does Mycology have NULs?
22:12:10 <Deewiant> alise: Same thing, just ] instead of [.
22:12:27 <alise> Deewiant: And at the end of the line, presumably.
22:12:40 <alise> Then it won't be executed the first time.
22:14:20 <alise> Hmm, actually, I should take code and then name on the stack.
22:14:23 <alise> Then you could skip the swap.
22:15:58 <alise> ... is executed after X, right?>
22:16:06 <alise> As in, we'll be going southwards.
22:17:12 <Sgeo_> Bleh at Opera Mobile being only on the Market
22:18:07 <alise> If you unload EDOM while in switchmode, switchmode ends, right?
22:18:13 <alise> Or do you need to explicitly turn it off with S?
22:18:38 <alise> http://pastie.org/923841.txt?key=7tniprqy8nwr6wibrhvxmg
22:18:46 <alise> The definition code is surprisingly nice. This is promising.
22:19:00 <Deewiant> In CCBI 1.0.something and below you don't need to turn it off
22:19:08 <alise> Of course defining instructions with " in might not be so nice
22:19:33 <alise> F starts the definition of a fingerprint called NUMS.
22:19:35 <Deewiant> Firstly you need the S before the )
22:19:42 <Deewiant> And then you don't need another )
22:19:45 <alise> We're executing backwards, remember?
22:19:50 <alise> Or, wait, it needs to be ] doesn't it
22:20:00 <alise> Yeah, it needs to be ], like you said.
22:20:28 <alise> My worry is that code that does something more complex -- like computation -- than simply feeding it a string might be ugly.
22:20:33 <alise> This way keeps 0"gnirt"s.
22:20:45 <Deewiant> If it has a string inside it it'll certainly be ugly; but such is life.
22:21:00 <Deewiant> Or I guess that depends on whether you think ""'" is ugly.
22:21:32 <alise> Worst method of string escaping discovered!
22:22:18 <alise> It just feels weird to be going backwards.
22:22:50 <alise> But then I need 0"string"s, and that's worse! Isn't it?
22:22:52 <alise> You're the Befunge expert.
22:23:07 <alise> What, write the entire code for an instruction backwards?
22:23:14 <alise> That's going backwards, too :-P
22:23:26 <alise> Hmm, I wonder what this would look like for 2D code.
22:23:37 <alise> Ouch. Maybe I /should/ write my own quoting instructions.
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22:23:48 <Deewiant> You can go forwards outside the string and backwards inside it, but that takes at least two lines
22:24:10 <Deewiant> I.e. run the "" right-to-left, but do other stuff left-to-right
22:25:25 <alise> I assume writing strings with newlines as-they-are (as in, 2D in the actual string building code) is not so pretty...
22:25:56 <Deewiant> If you want a newline in a string you do 0"rab"a"oof"
22:26:07 <alise> actually having a newline in the code that builds the string
22:27:42 <alise> Write a portion of Mycology with the same shape as in Mycology, but building the code that the section is instead. Mwahaha!
22:27:46 <alise> Now you see the evil!
22:28:34 <alise> Hmm... if I want my fingerprint-definer to truly be powerful, I need to let the code access the host IP.
22:28:47 <alise> Like, I can move around in the fingerprint code, but I can't write an instruction that changes the direction the IP is going in.
22:28:50 <Deewiant> Instead of having a literal 'foobar\nbaz' in the code you do ']"baz"0\n]"foobar"a
22:29:17 <Deewiant> You'll have to move north if you want the Y-direction to be the same :-P
22:29:32 <Deewiant> (And then use [ again instead of ])
22:29:36 <Sgeo_> alise, if you make something that lets fingerprints be defined in Befunge-98, that might be the only one my hypothetical AndFunge-98 interpreter will support
22:29:54 <alise> Sgeo_: Some fingerprints cannot be defined in that way.
22:30:00 <alise> Such as ones that affect the entire interpreter loop, such as TRDS.
22:30:07 <Deewiant> alise: Mini-Funge had instructions for that. Don't know what's happened to that in Rc/Funge-98's new system
22:30:34 <alise> Gregor: TARDIS >:|
22:31:31 * Sgeo_ wonders if there's a Befunge interpreter on iProducyt
22:32:09 <Gregor> The SDK license agreement forbids it.
22:32:13 <alise> No; it's against the T.O.S.
22:32:18 <alise> Even before the recent change, IIRC.
22:32:32 <Sgeo_> Supposedly, that's for the multitasking that's coming soon
22:32:36 <ais523> yes, the recent change now forbids you writing your programs in Befunge and compiling them for use on the iPhone
22:32:37 <Gregor> The recent change prevents pre-compiling, interpreting was already prevented.
22:32:38 <Sgeo_> Although that doesn't really make senser
22:32:48 <alise> Sgeo_: That's[...]bullshit, in so many words.
22:32:53 <Gregor> Fucking Apple douchebaggery.
22:32:59 <alise> Apple so fucked up big-time with the TOS from the start.
22:33:07 <ais523> actually, writing in Befunge then compiling, you'd still have something capable of being a Befunge interp if it had exploitable p commands
22:33:11 <alise> Gregor: It annoys me because now Apple have totally ruined their reputation, whereas their actual computers have none of this shit
22:33:31 <alise> I've always considered the iPhone SDK agreement completely unacceptable but I'm considered an Apple fanboy anyway :(
22:33:33 <Sgeo_> Here's what I hope happens: This kills Flash. Then, Apple is investigated for monopoly stuff
22:33:35 <Gregor> alise: That's the problem, they've only ruined their reputation amongst the tiny portion of the population that gets it.
22:33:51 <ais523> Sgeo_: but Apple don't have a monopoly
22:34:01 <alise> Sgeo_: Apple are well within their rights here.
22:34:10 <ais523> Gregor: on the other hand, that portion of the population contains many of the people who'd actually plan to write apps for them
22:34:28 <ais523> what'll happen is that the app store ends up full only of people who are trying to exploit their customers
22:34:35 <alise> But it's upsetting, because I want to like Apple computers and I want to support the computers.
22:34:40 <alise> But I can't because I'm supporting the shit as well.
22:34:42 <ais523> which doesn't really sound ideal for Apple's customers
22:36:12 <Sgeo_> Is Opera Mini a good browser?
22:36:26 <ais523> Sgeo_: good for some things, not others
22:36:38 <alise> Opera Mini is crap.
22:36:41 <ais523> basically, you visit a web page, it renders that web page and sends you an image of the rendered web page
22:36:43 <alise> I can say this because I have used it on a telephone.
22:36:48 <ais523> this gives you speed, but not many features
22:36:48 <alise> I wanted to claw out my face.
22:37:01 <alise> Opera Mobile is an entirely different thing altogether.
22:37:06 <ais523> think of it as "browser so we can run /something/ on a system that normally couldn't", rather than "browser so you can use the internet"
22:37:08 <alise> It is, I gather, significantly less suckful.
22:37:15 <Sgeo_> When will Opera Mobile be on Android?
22:37:18 <ais523> and yes, Opera Mobile is an actual browser
22:37:29 <alise> Sgeo_: The Oracle does not yet know the answer to that question.
22:37:36 <alise> It does now, though.
22:37:41 <alise> Sgeo_: But just use the built-in browser.
22:37:44 <pikhq> Opera Mobile is basically just a port of Opera.
22:37:52 <alise> Anyway, it's already out on Android.
22:37:53 <pikhq> Which is a good browser.
22:38:25 <Sgeo_> You're assuming that the part of Chrome that I like is WebKit.. Maybe I like the JS engine, or the interface
22:38:39 <alise> I never assumed that.
22:38:43 <alise> I'm telling you that you do like WebKit.
22:38:52 <alise> I am making the decision for you.
22:39:37 * Sgeo_ wonders how EpicMafia works on Android
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22:39:58 -!- fungotCCBI has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:42:51 <ais523> handprint identifies a specific interpreter
22:42:56 <ais523> caring about it is normally ill-advised
22:43:19 <ais523> but it's nice for ease of reference when you're trying to say which interp you're talking about
22:43:33 <ais523> Deewiant: do CCBI and CCBI2 have the same handprint?
22:44:00 <ais523> how similar are they code-wise?
22:44:18 <Sgeo_> Hm, I guess I should make my handprint something other than AndFunge-98
22:44:31 <Deewiant> $ git diff -c 2.0-fork --stat | tail -n1
22:44:32 <Deewiant> 139 files changed, 17190 insertions(+), 8780 deletions(-)
22:45:17 * ais523 downloads FSF propaganda
22:46:31 <alise> Join us now and share the software
22:46:34 <alise> You'll be free, hackers
22:46:40 -!- Oranjer has joined.
22:46:40 <ais523> it's about software patents
22:46:41 <alise> Hoarders may get piles of money
22:46:42 <alise> That is true, hackers
22:46:47 <alise> But they cannot help their neighbours
22:46:50 <alise> That's not good, hackers
22:46:52 <ais523> I wonder if it's as bad as the RMS stuff?
22:46:55 <alise> And thankfully I can't remember any more.
22:47:09 <ais523> wait, I thought you were making that up
22:47:12 <pikhq> alise: First verse again, and then it's done.
22:47:18 <alise> It's the Free Software Song.
22:47:19 <pikhq> Also, RMS should not be allowed to filk. *Ever*.
22:47:25 <alise> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gnu.org%2Fmusic%2Ffree-software-song.html&ei=zdrIS57NM9KTsQbwkOWmCw&usg=AFQjCNEgIz17BC-OPdJc-KYuzRPag6zLzA&sig2=BKvaEefBxD9l_1xUOhfQfQ
22:47:25 <pikhq> He's so very bad at it.
22:47:27 <alise> http://www.gnu.org/music/free-software-song.html
22:47:33 <alise> ais523: http://www.gnu.org/music/free-software-song.ogg
22:47:38 <alise> http://www.gnu.org/music/free-software-song.html ;; other performances
22:47:46 <alise> "This song is in a rhythm of 7/8; those unaccustomed to odd rhythms often take the unevenness to be a mistake." Suuure
22:47:52 <alise> pikhq: you missed a verse
22:47:54 <alise> When we have enough free software
22:47:55 <alise> At our call, hackers, at our call,
22:47:55 <alise> We'll throw out those dirty licenses
22:47:55 <alise> Ever more, hackers, ever more.
22:47:58 <alise> DIRTY DIRTY LICENSES
22:48:18 <pikhq> He should never be allowed to filk.
22:48:48 <pikhq> He's not bad at writing (though his stubbornness tends to bite him in the ass there), but that... *shudder*
22:49:11 <Sgeo_> alise, what do you think about the multitouch bug?
22:49:47 <Sgeo_> alise, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzhUzq6bTPg
22:49:55 <alise> Here's his almost-as-bad APL poem:
22:49:57 <alise> Rho, rho, rho of X
22:50:03 <alise> Rho is dimension; rho rho, rank.
22:50:13 <alise> A far superior alternative:
22:50:20 <alise> There are three things a man must do before his life is done;
22:50:22 <alise> Write two lines in APL,
22:50:25 <alise> And make the buggers run.
22:50:47 <pikhq> Part of the groan-inducing is that filks often rely on puns...
22:50:56 <alise> http://stallman.org/doggerel.html An endless repository of pain.
22:50:57 <pikhq> Part of it is that RMS likes puns too much.
22:51:08 <alise> [[ For reasons obscure and unclear,
22:51:09 <alise> I can't put my nose in my ear.
22:51:09 <alise> I'll be happy indeed,
22:51:09 <alise> For I'll finally have a career.]]
22:51:18 <alise> [[ If I could just kiss my own nose,
22:51:18 <alise> I'd have a career, I suppose.
22:51:18 <alise> But the Christian right wing
22:51:18 <alise> Would frown on the thing;
22:51:19 <alise> For safety, I'll just kiss my toes.]]
22:51:22 <alise> Bit of a nose obsession going on here
22:52:01 <alise> Sgeo_: No sound, so give me a text summary please.
22:52:14 <Sgeo_> The visuals work just as well
22:52:35 <Sgeo_> Multitouch on Nexus One, but not Android in general, seems to get the fingers confused if the axises cross
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22:52:58 <alise> Maybe a software bug.
22:53:14 <alise> But, eh, you don't really have any other viable Android phones available, and this seems a bit of an edge case.
22:53:39 <alise> Looked at the HTC Desire? Maybe it is out over there now.
22:53:41 <Sgeo_> My dad's considering switching/getting a T-Mobile
22:55:18 <Sgeo_> What's the myTouch like?
22:56:11 -!- tombom has joined.
22:56:19 * Sgeo_ growls at being unable to find the version of Android used by myTouch
22:56:46 -!- mycroftiv has joined.
22:58:36 <Sgeo_> If I'm getting a T-Mobile contract, there's little reason not to get the Nexus One
22:59:02 <Sgeo_> Ok, maybe I should admit I'm a bit biased: I saw, and got to play with a little bit, a Nexus One last week
22:59:18 <Sgeo_> Just played with the Android Scripting Environment, couldn't get it to work
23:00:19 <alise> Sgeo_: Look at the HTC Desire if you want to
23:00:31 <alise> It's just like the Nexus One but with the prettier Sense homescreen and some other minor differences
23:00:49 <alise> The myTouch is pretty old iirc
23:01:16 <Sgeo_> What network is Desire, again?
23:01:45 <alise> Sgeo_: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/01/htc-desire-review/
23:01:59 <alise> It compares it to the Nexus One.
23:02:03 <alise> IMO the Nexus One's exterior is prettier but the Desire's screen...contents are prettier.
23:02:17 <Sgeo_> Sense UI is pretty, but other than that, and the phone button, I don't see the point
23:02:22 <Sgeo_> Hm, I can agree with that
23:04:01 <Sgeo_> Considering the tactile buttons and placement of trackpad, you'd THINK the Desire would have more screen space, grr
23:04:05 <alise> Sense has changes in the actual apps, I think
23:04:24 <alise> The Legend isn't very pretty but it has a fancy aluminium unibody covering :P
23:04:28 <alise> Sgeo_: Oh, that trackpad thing isn't nice IMO.
23:04:32 <alise> I much prefer a trackball, at least in theory.
23:04:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:04:52 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Sense
23:05:00 <alise> So Sense includes much more than just a home screen.
23:05:09 <Sgeo_> Noise cancellation sounds interesting
23:05:30 <alise> You may prefer stock Android; uglier, probably, but more... stock.
23:06:10 <Sgeo_> "in theory, the latter's unibody frame should be stronger than the Desire's old-fashioned assembly"
23:06:35 <alise> Yes but it's also more slippery.
23:07:01 <alise> Sgeo_: Mind you, Android 2 introduced a major makeover to the whole UI.
23:07:06 <alise> So stock Android isn't exactly ugly nowadays.
23:07:49 <alise> Sgeo_: But also "and the phone certainly doesn't peeve your ears with distorted background noise as produced by the Nexus One"
23:07:57 <alise> Still, who makes calls on their phone?
23:08:58 <alise> Sgeo_: Oh, and you can get the "best" of both worlds...
23:09:00 <alise> [[Of course, if you're really into that little glowing ball and the touch-sensitive buttons, you can always try flashing the Desire ROM onto it (at your own risk, naturally). Have fun!]]
23:09:17 <alise> Since the Nexus One is prettier on the outside and besides gives you more freedom if you want the Googley stuff by default...
23:09:27 <alise> http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/21/htc-desire-rom-shoehorns-htc-sense-and-flash-10-1-onto-the-nexus/
23:10:01 <alise> Go for the Nexus One, probably.
23:10:12 <alise> btw http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/04/11/Other-Android-Languages
23:12:12 <alise> And Tim Bray has a Nexus One, so if you like him go for the Nexus One!
23:12:22 <alise> Sgeo_: To be quite honest, since the Nexus One will be quite cheap on a T-Mobile contract, just get it.
23:12:38 <alise> It's not like you'll hate it or anything, it's, if not the best Android phone out there, in the top three.
23:13:08 <Sgeo_> Does the Desire have the multitouch issue? I can see myself wanting to play games with others on occasion
23:13:34 <alise> I imagine it does since it has similar hardware. And no, you won't.
23:13:41 <alise> The screen is not big enough for that; you wouldn't be able to see things.
23:13:51 <alise> Maybe Pong could work, at the most.
23:14:52 <Sgeo_> Nexus One is supposed to get Flash 10.1 soon?
23:15:17 <coppro> okay, firefox is starting to get really weird on me
23:15:21 <alise> It has it now if you flash the Desire ROM.
23:15:24 <coppro> it is literally refusing to load some pages
23:15:28 <alise> But you don't want Flash on a mobile device on the web.
23:15:33 <alise> It is not pleasant.
23:16:08 <Sgeo_> alise, I don't think you could have possibly tried it
23:16:50 <alise> I can read, and I can reason, and I have used the web on a phone without Flash extensively; that is enough.
23:17:06 <Sgeo_> I want to try it on the emulator
23:17:13 * Sgeo_ wonders how to get ROMs onto the emulator
23:17:22 <alise> http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/21/htc-desire-rom-shoehorns-htc-sense-and-flash-10-1-onto-the-nexus/
23:17:26 <alise> (Click the post title)
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23:18:14 <Sgeo_> The title, it does nothing!
23:18:27 <Sgeo_> Oh, apparently, by title, you meant image?
23:19:44 <alise> I didn't really think, at all. :-)
23:20:55 <augur> we're trying to get the guy who created it to come to our department to give a talk
23:28:28 * Sgeo_ probably won't do anything warantee-voiding
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23:36:56 <coppro> alise: You know what? I've been looking over the Agora archives, and I miss you
23:38:54 <alise> Strange; wasn't I a total asshole? :P
23:41:02 <alise> coppro: what in particular made you remember how awesome I was? :P
23:41:40 <coppro> alise: comex's "For the love of god did you even read the arguments to that case?" You're like Yally, except you aren't just annoying in every way
23:41:56 <augur> alise: want me to ask him some questions when hes here? :x
23:44:17 -!- |MigoMipo| has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net).
23:54:20 <alise> or alternatively thread title
23:54:29 <coppro> it was the criminal case regarding AAA awards
23:54:41 <augur> alise: let me know in the next three months :P
23:54:45 <coppro> and whether Taral was illegally failing to award them
23:55:11 <alise> what cfj number, I said :-P
23:55:22 <coppro> There were probably 3 pages worth of arguments, you said "trivially GUILTY/SILENCE"
23:56:11 <alise> I tend to take a bit of a lax attitude to nomic
23:56:28 <Sgeo_> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/cellphone/8193/ expensive :(
23:56:30 <alise> [[Judge ehird's Arguments:
23:56:31 <alise> GUILTY/SILENCE; when the obligation was created, the AAA was a
23:56:31 <alise> contest, and obligations don't automagically stop existing because
23:56:31 <alise> they wouldn't if they were calculated now.]]
23:56:37 <alise> I actually considered this too obvious to state the first time around
23:56:59 <alise> Sgeo_: those things suck
23:57:28 <alise> coppro: ugh, why was it overruled?
23:57:43 <coppro> alise: I think those were your second arguments
23:58:50 <Sgeo_> alise, how does it suck?
23:59:00 <coppro> alise: they were overturned on reasonable belief, given how complex the sorting-out of the rules was. This was a bad overrule; ignorance of the law has long been held not to be a defence
23:59:00 <alise> Sgeo_: no tactile response whatsoever
23:59:04 <alise> almost impossible to use without looking at it
23:59:15 <Sgeo_> Almost like the Nexus One keyboard!
23:59:27 <alise> yeah but way too big to be usable
23:59:59 <alise> coppro: a shame; I bet something comes up sometime where that precedent will be useful