←2010-04-19 2010-04-20 2010-04-21→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:20:53 <Gregor> http://www.irextechnologies.com/irexdr800 Opinions? (Note also that it runs Linux and has a vendor-supported jailbreak)
00:23:32 <Rugxulo> isn't that a lot more expensive than iPad? and I didn't see any direct mentions of Linux
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00:24:09 <augur> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/earth-environment/article7100906.ece
00:24:12 <augur> im sorry, europeans. :(
00:24:16 <augur> im so sorry
00:24:36 <Gregor> I wouldn't use the iPad if it was free. Also, that's $100 less than the iPad. Also it has an eInk screen (though a smaller one). Also, they don't tend to mention the developer details on the general product page, but the forums, developer page, etc etc are quite explicit.
00:24:48 <Gregor> Rugxulo: ^^^
00:25:08 <oerjan> well katla hasn't erupted _yet_
00:25:36 <oerjan> (although there was a fake report that hekla (another volcano) had done so
00:25:37 <oerjan> )
00:25:58 <oerjan> hekla = largest volcano on iceland
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00:28:56 <Rugxulo> "I wouldn't use the iPad if it was free" ... I know, they treat developers like crap
00:28:57 <Rugxulo> but the "shop" part of the iRex showed $895, so I just assumed that's the one you meant :-/
00:29:29 <oerjan> (apparently someone was looking at a webcam of hekla or something like that, and seeing smoke - but they didn't notice that the smoke was in the background, from the current volcano eruption :D)
00:29:35 <Gregor> Rugxulo: No, that's the enormous 10.2" one.
00:30:00 <Gregor> Rugxulo: The 8.7" one is $400 from Best Buy (plus shipping)
00:30:35 <Sgeo> My phone's going to be more expensive than the iPad :/
00:31:09 <Gregor> Sgeo: Smaller = more expensive
00:31:12 <oerjan> augur: anyway some of the ashes are currently at newfoundland, i read
00:31:30 <augur> oerjan: man if they come to the US we might have to shut down shit here too
00:31:38 <augur> this will /definitely/ be interesting
00:32:19 <oerjan> however there are reports that the volcano is changing behavior from sending out ash to sending out lava, so it may be better at least for a while
00:33:33 <augur> im secretly hoping that it continutes to get worse. grounding air travel wouldnt be all that bad
00:33:40 <augur> maybe itll force america to build more trains.
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00:34:14 <oerjan> augur: the main worry in norway is all the ambulance helicopters
00:34:24 <Rugxulo> http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=11432
00:34:30 <augur> ambulance helicopters :(
00:34:43 <oerjan> they were grounded too
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00:35:05 <augur> i figured
00:35:11 <augur> that sucks
00:35:18 <augur> upsides and downsides
00:35:26 <augur> the world is a giant reddit
00:35:48 <oerjan> however norway cleared up today, anyway, although they expect a new cloud of ash tomorrow
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00:36:25 <oerjan> we were hit first, but also cleared up first, it seems
00:36:37 <oerjan> but it all depends on wind direction, anyhow
00:37:08 <Rugxulo> would be a good name for an esolang ... Ejafjojfakjasfjkul
00:37:42 <oerjan> we do have Itflabtijtslwi
00:38:01 <oerjan> and eodermdrome can _look_ like that, i think
00:39:13 <Rugxulo> !bf_txtgen Eyjafjallajkull
00:39:16 <EgoBot> 182 +++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+++.>.---------------.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.>.---------.<++++++..>.+++++++++.>++++.<+.++++++++++.<..>>>-. [691]
00:39:42 <augur> BUT DOES IT WORK?
00:39:54 <Rugxulo> !bf_txtgen Eyjafjallajoekull
00:39:56 <EgoBot> 169 ++++++++++[>++++++++++++>+++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>>-.<+.---------------.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>++.++++.<.<++..>.+++++++++.<+++.----------.>+.++++++++++.>++..>. [173]
00:39:56 <oerjan> BUT WHO WAS VOLCANO
00:40:00 <augur> 8D
00:40:10 <augur> slereah got banned from another channel lol
00:42:51 <Gregor> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+++.>.---------------.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++.>.---------.<++++++..>.+++++++++.>++++.<+.++++++++++.<..>>>-.
00:42:57 <EgoBot> Eyjafjallajkull
00:43:16 <Rugxulo> dare I ask, but what's with the "[173]" ?
00:43:48 <Rugxulo> length is 170, apparently
00:44:00 <pikhq> Generations used to evolve that solution.
00:46:43 <Rugxulo> bfd output size -> 178, 187 bytes (respectively)
00:47:10 <Rugxulo> although I do wonder how it encodes "o:"
00:47:31 <pikhq> !bf_textgen o:
00:47:43 <Rugxulo> !bf_txtgen o:
00:47:46 <EgoBot> 49 ++++++++++[>+++++++++++>++++++>+>+<<<<-]>+.>--.>. [177]
00:47:52 <pikhq> Yeah, that.
00:47:59 <Rugxulo> I meant what character encoding does it use
00:48:06 <pikhq> Oh, that.
00:48:08 <pikhq> UTF-8.
00:48:24 * Rugxulo didn't know Brainf*** was UTF-8 aware ;-)
00:48:27 <Gregor> pikhq: http://www.irextechnologies.com/irexdr800 Opinions? (Note also that it runs Linux and has a vendor-supported jailbreak)
00:48:33 <Gregor> Rugxulo: Doesn't have to be.
00:48:49 <Rugxulo> but how can you output Unicode in a non-Unicode implementation? you can't!
00:48:52 <pikhq> Rugxulo: It has to be UTF-8 not-breaking is all.
00:48:58 <Gregor> Rugxulo: What a silly thing to say.
00:49:11 <pikhq> And that's quite ignorant.
00:49:19 <Rugxulo> how so?
00:49:31 <Gregor> In every way.
00:49:41 <pikhq> A UTF-8 string is a string of 8-bit units.
00:49:51 <pikhq> 1 or more of those units makes a UTF-8 character.
00:49:51 <Rugxulo> bfd compiler creates volcano.com, which uses 0xF6 for "o:", which I don't think is proper UTF-8
00:50:14 <Rugxulo> at least, it doesn't look correctly here (no big surprise, DOS app)
00:50:25 <Gregor> Rugxulo: That's because DOS isn't UTF-8-capable.
00:50:33 <pikhq> Programs unaware of UTF-8 will simply treat each unit as an 8-bit character instead.
00:50:33 <Rugxulo> I know, that's what I meant!
00:50:44 <pikhq> And if they don't do any splitting, it "just works".
00:51:01 <Rugxulo> it looks like a division symbol here, which is wrong
00:51:06 <pikhq> (that is, it outputs a UTF-8 string without having a clue)
00:51:31 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yes, that's because DOS is interpreting the UTF-8 string as using characters from the codepage instead.
00:51:41 <Rugxulo> all I meant was that it is ignorant of code pages, so it's pretty random what it chooses for that
00:52:08 <pikhq> This is because DOS knows nothing about UTF-8 so it can't do UTF-8.
00:52:20 <pikhq> Instead, it tries something else.
00:52:27 <Rugxulo> nor does Brainf***, only particular implementations
00:52:28 <pikhq> In this case, displaying the glyph for 0xF6.
00:52:33 <Gregor> ARGH
00:52:40 <Gregor> <Rugxulo> nor does Brainf***, only particular implementations // NO NO NO
00:53:02 <Rugxulo> "treats as raw data" isn't the same as "fully supports"
00:53:12 <Gregor> It is for Brainfuck.
00:53:26 <pikhq> Brainfuck treats everything as raw data.
00:53:29 <Gregor> Brainfuck has no characters, only bytes.
00:53:39 <pikhq> That happens to be in 8-bit units called "bytes".
00:53:45 <Gregor> (Usually :P )
00:53:56 <pikhq> (some implementations make this 16-bit, 32-bit, etc. units instead)
00:55:40 <pikhq> Okay. So?
00:55:42 <Rugxulo> so 0xF6 came from UTF-16 from my Windows XP (since I cut and pasted via clipboard), I guess
00:55:54 <Gregor> UTF-16
00:55:56 <Gregor> Good lawd
00:55:58 <Gregor> So much lame.
00:56:08 <pikhq> UTF-16 is such a *retarded* character encoding.
00:56:32 <pikhq> About as much of a pain as UTF-8, except without being compatible with anything.
00:56:57 <Rugxulo> In other languages that do not have the letter as part of the regular alphabet or in limited character sets such as ASCII, O-umlaut is frequently replaced with the two-letter combination "oe".
00:57:14 <Rugxulo> my only guess as to why they chose UTF-16 is speed
00:57:38 <pikhq> Except it's no faster than UTF-8 if actually handled correctly.
00:58:01 <pikhq> (note: UTF-16 requires 2 16-bit units to encode some Unicode characters)
00:58:23 <Rugxulo> cp437 represents "o:" as 0x94 (148)
00:58:33 <Rugxulo> so there :-P ;-)
00:58:53 <pikhq> You are aware that o followed by colon is not the same as ö, right?
00:58:56 <Rugxulo> I know, UTF-16 can be wasteful, but so can UTF-8, depends on language most heavily used
00:59:09 <Rugxulo> sorry, I'm only using that because I'm not setup to enter 8-bit chars here
00:59:12 <pikhq> Big. Deal. WE HAVE COMPRESSION.
00:59:18 * Rugxulo is American, typically doesn't do 8-bit ...
00:59:34 <Rugxulo> pikhq, I'm not defending them, I'm just saying ...
00:59:35 <pikhq> ö is not an 8-bit character.
00:59:44 <oerjan> typically cannot even pronounce a simple 8-bit word like eyjafjallajökull
00:59:46 <Rugxulo> it is in cp437 ;-)
00:59:48 <pikhq> It is U+00F6, which in UTF-8 is encoded using 2 bytes.
00:59:50 <Gregor> oerjan: lol
00:59:54 * oerjan whistles innocently
01:00:14 <pikhq> In other encodings, it may be 8-bit. In still others, it's 32-bit.
01:00:33 <Rugxulo> you know what I mean, it's not 7-bit ASCII
01:00:35 <Gregor> In UTF-64 (UCS-8) it's 64-bit.
01:00:38 <pikhq> And Huffman encoded, it may well end up as one bit. :P
01:02:04 <Rugxulo> dumb question, but is the "oe" in "oerjan" short for U+00F6 ??
01:02:12 <pikhq> No.
01:02:17 <oerjan> Ø
01:02:38 <pikhq> Wrong Germanic language. :)
01:02:47 <oerjan> if i were swedish, it would be, but i'm norwegian
01:03:29 <Rugxulo> cp850 = 0x9D (157)
01:04:02 <Rugxulo> um, isn't Norwey related to Sweden somewhat? ;-)
01:04:10 <Rugxulo> s/wey/way/
01:04:25 <oerjan> next door neighbors
01:04:37 <Rugxulo> more than just neighbors, though, cousins right??
01:05:09 <oerjan> we're both descended from vikings
01:06:01 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kiel
01:06:34 <Rugxulo> Accordingly, on November 4, 1814, Norway was forced into entering the union with Sweden.
01:06:35 <oerjan> and if you insist, the swedes were our evil oppressors from 1814 - 1905 (ok, not _that_ evil)
01:06:37 <Rugxulo> (sounds messy)
01:07:40 <oerjan> we actually had great autonomy in most matters, with our own constitution and parliament
01:09:29 <oerjan> so much so that our national day is the day of our 1814 constitution rather than our 1905 independence
01:11:14 <augur> oerjan: yeah but you europeans are so waifish anyway
01:11:37 <augur> the netherlands' national anthem still has it swearing allegiance to spain!
01:11:52 <oerjan> wow :D
01:12:42 <Rugxulo> I read that a lot of Icelanders are migrating to Norway (economic, mostly, but now I'm sure the stupid volcano doesn't help)
01:12:43 <oerjan> you could say the constitution was the crowbar we used to eventually get independence, and remarkably peacefully
01:13:08 <oerjan> they cannot emigrate to norway if they cannot fly here, silly
01:13:24 <oerjan> well i guess they could bring their fishing boats
01:14:07 <oerjan> (and yeah i've read that too)
01:20:59 <Rugxulo> "Eyjafjallajkull" (according to Wikipedia's OGG) sounds like "ehvya leyv kvik" (where's the "ull" ??)
01:21:30 <Rugxulo> s/leyv/leyvov/
01:23:34 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2 ... much easier to pronounce :-P
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02:09:45 <Gregor> Mathnerd314: 314 is too obvious, you should go with 271 (272?) or 161 (162?), maybe 141.
02:10:04 <Gregor> The ?s being on whether you truncate or round.
02:12:13 <oerjan> 1729
02:12:24 <pikhq> 8675309.
02:12:30 <pikhq> I need to use that as a magic number some day.
02:12:33 <Gregor> pikhq: Boo hiss.
02:12:47 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: it's intended to be obvious
02:12:59 <Gregor> Mathnerd314: Exactly the problem :P
02:13:03 <pikhq> Gregor: If it makes you feel better, I know of that only by force of meme.
02:13:18 <Gregor> pikhq: Everyone knows of that one only by force of meme.
02:13:19 <oerjan> pikhq: that's not math nerdy
02:13:25 <pikhq> oerjan: True.
02:13:32 <pikhq> Just memey.
02:13:39 <Gregor> Hence my "boo hiss" :P
02:13:42 <pikhq> Gregor: No, *people actually have heard the song and enjoyed it*.
02:14:00 <Gregor> Define "people"
02:14:37 <pikhq> "Collective noun for members of homo sapiens. Sometimes broadened to be inclusive of other sapient beings."
02:15:04 <Gregor> So Homo sapiens dumbassus still counts then.
02:15:28 <pikhq> Yes, Homo sapiens stultus still counts.
02:16:00 <Gregor> Your usage varies from mine :P
02:16:38 <oerjan> small furry creatures from alpha centauri
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03:40:17 <uorygl> Neat. Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Finland have, like, the same flag.
03:40:43 <pikhq> Scandinavia's like that.
03:40:51 <uorygl> Yeah, I know I put them in the wrong order.
03:41:10 <uorygl> I don't remember whether Norway or Sweden goes first, nor whether Finland or Iceland goes last.
03:41:35 <pikhq> I was unaware that Country was an instance of Enum.
03:41:51 <oerjan> norway goes first, of course. sheesh.
03:41:58 <uorygl> Of course.
03:42:12 <uorygl> So Norway, Sweden, Denmark...
03:43:11 <oerjan> as for chronology, denmark's flag is the oldest country flag in the world iirc
03:43:54 <Gregor> Oldest in continuous use, or oldest period?
03:43:56 <uorygl> Mmkay, Finland definitely goes before Iceland.
03:44:23 <oerjan> Gregor: um... i thought oldest period
03:45:06 <pikhq> And God Save the Queen is the oldest national anthem.
03:45:50 <uorygl> oerjan, it looks like you're wrong. Sweden comes before Norway.
03:46:02 * oerjan swats uorygl -----###
03:46:17 <uorygl> Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Iceland.
03:46:47 <uorygl> Well, it's not like the earlier countries are better or anything.
03:47:32 <oerjan> actually i didn't know there was a fixed order. and that one is definitely not chronological by independence.
03:49:02 <oerjan> not by original founding either, i'm pretty sure norway was unified before sweden
03:49:03 <uorygl> Hmm, maybe Norway comes first after all.
03:49:44 <oerjan> and i think denmark may have been first
03:50:38 <oerjan> actually it's just a big mess trying to order them
03:51:13 <uorygl> It's a very small mess; you just have to figure out whether it's Sweden and then Norway or the other way around.
03:52:08 <uorygl> If only there were some NULL country we could compare them to.
03:52:27 <oerjan> Kenya, perhaps
03:52:57 <oerjan> hm, Tanzania
03:53:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olduvai_Gorge
04:05:03 * Sgeo grumbles at Normish not having Java
04:05:28 * Sgeo wanted to run an HTTP-IRC proxy on there so he could connect to IRC from his crap RAZR
04:11:47 <pikhq> How's about the Sovereign Military Order of Malta?
04:11:59 <pikhq> Which has the notable property of being a sovereign non-nation.
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04:40:29 <uorygl> What's it sovereign over?
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04:45:21 <pikhq> Itself.
04:45:38 <pikhq> Oh, and yes: it has international recognition.
04:45:58 <pikhq> Some 50 countries have embassies with it, and it is a permanent observer in the UN.
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06:12:45 <Rugxulo> AnMaster signed on at 4/8/2010 11:14:50 PM, and has been idle 7 hours, 48 minutes and 10 seconds
06:13:01 <Rugxulo> clearly a small timezone difference (as it just turned 12am here) ;-)
06:20:11 <Rugxulo> "Atari 2600 Air Raid auction that ended for $31,600"
06:20:15 <Rugxulo> o_O
06:20:26 <Rugxulo> "The auction resulted in 52 valid bids, and in auction's final seconds bidding jumped from $17,528.28 to its final price of $31,600."
06:21:13 <Rugxulo> boxed, of course, which apparently makes a difference to some people *shrug*
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06:56:13 <evincar> I exist.
06:57:08 <pikhq> Thou think'st, therefore thou art?
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06:58:12 <evincar> Thou ask'st me, therefore I answer thee; and could thou tell the difference?
06:58:18 <evincar> *couldst
06:58:21 <evincar> Dammit.
06:58:33 <evincar> C-c-c-combo breaker.
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07:00:23 <evincar> So what's going on?
07:05:30 <Rugxulo> right now? apparently not much ;-)
07:06:12 * Rugxulo wrote a lame Befunge93 program that names the digit you enter, easy to i18n-ize, heh
07:06:39 <Rugxulo> a lot of people here are European, so I guess they're all asleep
07:07:58 <fizzie> 09am here already, so possibly at work too.
07:11:19 <evincar> 2:10 over here.
07:11:28 <evincar> The night is young.
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07:48:06 <evincar> Hey, Sgeo.
07:48:25 <evincar> You get a chance to check out those links?
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07:55:16 <evincar> Ugh. Sleep beckons.
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08:53:21 <Rugxulo> befi.asm -> 13 SUBs, 13 XORs, 19 ADDs, 20 PUSHes, 24 POPs, 27 CMPs, 32 CALLs, 45 JMPs, 71 MOVs, etc. (including other less interesting numbers)
08:56:32 <Rugxulo> total of 53 unique instructions used
08:57:22 <Rugxulo> oh, and (surprise!) a Kenyan won the Boston Marathon ;-)
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09:03:24 <Rugxulo> "A Kenyan has now won 18 of the past 20 men's Boston marathons"
09:03:38 <Rugxulo> dang, I didn't know it was quite that common
09:11:09 <fizzie> Oh, right, Ubuntu's clang package updated; I should maybe try out ff3 with it.
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09:11:36 <fizzie> Er, except that I turned the computar off when leaving home today. Whoops. Well, maybe later.
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09:16:26 * Rugxulo still can't get used to it being called "clang" (like a bell) instead of "C lang"
09:17:00 <Rugxulo> should've maybe been called "Clangejajofulkullok" ;-)
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09:17:14 * Rugxulo would explode too with a name like that
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09:17:56 <Rugxulo> why do so many people have ping timeouts?
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09:26:49 <fizzie> I mentally pronounce "clang" as the bell sound instead of "see-lang"; I wonder how it officially speaking should be.
09:31:23 <Rugxulo> clang (as bell), I read somewhere
09:33:56 <fizzie> Apparently so.
09:34:11 <fizzie> "Clang (pronounced /ˈklæŋ/ like the English word clang[2]) is ...", [2] http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2008-July/015624.html
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10:00:32 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> AnMaster signed on at 4/8/2010 11:14:50 PM, and has been idle 7 hours, 48 minutes and 10 seconds <-- morning.
10:00:37 <AnMaster> (now that is)
10:00:46 <AnMaster> well, closer to noon
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15:37:00 <oklopol> from the creators of clue, www.vjn.fi/oklopol/toi.py
15:37:57 <ais523> hmm, interesting
15:38:07 <oklopol> if someone wants a more comprehensive documentation (not sure there's much to add but i could clarify it), do tell, also the interp is incredibly slow
15:38:09 <ais523> which clue, btw
15:38:15 <ais523> the name is ambiguous
15:38:21 <oklopol> by incredible i mean don't run the example program for long
15:38:28 <oklopol> because it uses as much memory as ordinals usually do
15:40:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, what does it do? Just very very quick desc.
15:40:30 <AnMaster> like "it is an esolang" or "it is a game" or whatever
15:41:09 <AnMaster> ah found the docs at the bottom
15:41:11 <AnMaster> lets see..
15:41:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, esolang I guess?
15:59:27 <oklopol> ais523: from mine
15:59:36 <oklopol> esolang
15:59:56 <oklopol> so, if i leave some chicken in room temperature overnight, can i die from eating it?
16:00:08 <oklopol> iIlari and pikhq
16:00:10 <oklopol> i'
16:00:12 <oklopol> argh
16:00:21 <oklopol> i'm sure at least Ilari and pikhq know
16:01:46 <oklopol> it would be really easy to make the thing run non-exponential timely, but i would first like to know its computational class
16:01:55 <oklopol> haven't given it any thought really
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16:06:53 <oklopol> the point of the language is you can't actually talk about any object, you can just map stuff over all objects
16:06:57 <oklopol> i guess that's the only point
16:11:25 <oklopol> SO HOW ABOUT THAT CHICKEN
16:11:52 <oklopol> maybe i'll just eat something else and eat the chicken some other day ->
16:18:46 <oklopol> ...about the chicken, there's a lot of information about what can cause food poisoning, but why would i give a shit about food poisoning if i don't die
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16:19:28 <oklopol> augur: what's the probability that i die from eating chicken i left in room temperature overnight
16:19:56 <augur> very small
16:20:01 <augur> ive done it.
16:20:07 <augur> also, <3
16:20:09 <augur> bye
16:20:09 <oklopol> because i'm pretty sure it's 0%, but i've heard some stories about people actually dying of food poisoning
16:20:14 <oklopol> oh you have?
16:20:17 <oklopol> great
16:20:21 <oklopol> then i will too
16:20:29 <oklopol> bye :P
16:21:00 <oklopol> wait umm
16:21:05 <oklopol> actually there's also some cheese involved
16:21:14 <oklopol> that might complicate things?
16:22:11 <oklopol> why can't there be statistics on this stuff online
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16:33:19 <oklopol> okay i decided to eat them because they tasted okay when i tasted them without cooking
16:33:36 <oklopol> so i suppose this is it, consider the language my obituary
16:34:09 <ais523> if you do get food-poisoned, it's likely to be curable
16:35:30 <oklopol> possibly
16:35:47 <oklopol> but you'd think there's a continuous scale of food-poisonings
16:35:56 <oklopol> worseness scale
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18:53:05 <ais523> <kitsuneudon> Noone ever wants to hang out with me in #malbolge :( <dwchandler> Of course not. All the cool kids hang out in #malbolge-t
18:54:05 <ais523> #malbolge was empty and unregistered when I looked
18:54:25 <ais523> #malbolge-t likewise
18:54:41 <ais523> context indicated Freenode, but not strongly; I suspect they were just joking
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21:08:10 <nooga> great
21:08:15 <nooga> now i'm stuck in edinburgh
21:08:39 <ais523> ash cloud?
21:08:43 <oerjan> so they wouldn't let a simple pole on a complex plane today?
21:09:06 <nooga> oerjan: hahahaha ohohoho
21:09:26 <nooga> yeah, the f#$$%#$, icelandic ash cloud
21:09:39 <nooga> icelanders smoke too much
21:10:09 <ais523> oerjan: that's a pretty impressive joke to come up with so quickly
21:10:19 <nooga> polandball cannot into poland
21:10:33 <nooga> I'm enraged
21:10:35 <oerjan> ais523: well it's not quite new
21:10:56 <ais523> ok, an existing joke, modified to fit in the context?
21:11:01 <oerjan> yeah
21:13:07 <oerjan> currently reading: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/btkx2/hands_up_who_is_secretly_hoping_katla_erupts_just/
21:19:54 <ais523> I imagine reactions would change significantly based on whether it kills a lot of people, or just makes air travel impossible for a decade
21:20:00 <ais523> the second would give the world quite a wake-up call
21:20:05 <ais523> the first would mostly be ignored
21:20:25 <oerjan> er... right
21:20:51 <oerjan> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2257
21:21:15 <olsner> bleak, but realistic
21:21:49 <olsner> something like eyftljktl
21:22:03 * oerjan doesn't find that very hard to pronounce at all :D
21:22:14 <oerjan> although the ll's are a bit surprising
21:22:46 <oerjan> especially the last one
21:24:54 <olsner> welsh uses ll for a voiceless lateral fricative
21:26:28 <oerjan> well my own dialect does strange things with l itself, like many norwegian ones
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21:28:28 <oerjan> fjell (cognate with -fjall- there) has a palatalized one, kull (not the same as jökull, but rather "coal") has the strange retroflex flap
21:29:59 <olsner> I think the palatized is common in some dialects of swedish
21:30:00 <oerjan> and tillit (trust) has a "normal" l
21:31:16 <olsner> weird, I consider the "normal" swedish to have the same l everywhere, and I think the dialects that do weird stuff do it consistently
21:32:37 <oerjan> well standard norwegian does more or less the same one everywhere
21:33:31 <oerjan> (newscaster pronunciation, or something)
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22:47:53 * uorygl ponders the decision problem "in formal system X, there is a proof of Y whose length is less than n"
22:48:19 <uorygl> Where n is written in unary or something.
22:49:01 <uorygl> I'm pretty sure that decision problem is in NP.
22:49:15 <uorygl> Well, if you restrict the formal system to stuff that runs in polynomial time, I guess.
22:49:22 <uorygl> Let's do so.
22:49:39 <uorygl> So yeah, I'm quite sure that's in NP.
22:50:05 <uorygl> And it seems like it's not in P, but maybe it is.
22:54:17 <oerjan> you can make Y any SAT problem, i should think.
22:54:18 <oklopol> if you can check a proof of length n in polynomial time, then finding it is in NP by definition
22:54:46 <oerjan> so, NP-complete precisely
22:55:22 <oerjan> the n doesn't even really enter into it
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22:56:25 <oerjan> (Except that you need to make it large enough that the obvious test-the-correct-guess proof fits
22:56:29 <oerjan> )
22:56:33 <oklopol> i assumed n was somehow linked to size of Y
22:56:58 <oerjan> no... for really _difficult_ Y's, n could be enormous
22:57:14 <oklopol> if you use other quantifiers than just existential then you can easily find pspace-complete stuff too
22:57:16 <oerjan> say if Y is an encoding of something EXPTIME, just for a start
22:57:16 <oklopol> err
22:58:03 <oerjan> essentially n is padding to get the whole problem down to NP, given Y's size
22:58:59 <oerjan> oklopol: pspace-complete doesn't work because the _proof_ would likely be exponential in size
22:59:20 <oklopol> well i meant in that case the problem isn't in <np
22:59:21 <oerjan> as it may have to trace the whole pspace evaluation
22:59:22 <oklopol> NP
22:59:48 <oerjan> oklopol: the problem is in NP because n caps the size of proofs
23:00:19 <oerjan> basically the size of problem is size X + size Y + n
23:00:21 <oklopol> ...okay what's the input exactly, maybe i misunderstood?
23:00:27 <oklopol> alright
23:00:46 <oerjan> uorygl: correct me if i'm wrong there
23:01:11 <oerjan> but i thought that was the point of making n unary
23:01:26 <oklopol> if the size is calculated like that, then it's obviously in NP because you can guess the proof of length n... so it's pseudo nondeterministic polynomial
23:01:28 <oklopol> <.p
23:01:30 <oklopol> :P
23:01:43 <oklopol> right
23:02:16 <uorygl> oerjan: yes, that was the point of making n unary.
23:03:35 <oklopol> yeah okay i don't know what i was thinking
23:03:40 <oklopol> maybe i wasn't?
23:03:51 <oerjan> ok, when i said "the n doesn't even really enter into it", i meant just for the encoding SAT direction
23:04:02 <oerjan> it's obviously needed for showing < NP
23:04:16 <oklopol> the problem with math conversations on irc is no one bothers taking out the definitions and actually going through the details because there's nothing to write on
23:04:45 <oklopol> well maybe that's just a problem for me because i also happen to be unable to do that mentally when on irc
23:04:51 <oerjan> for SAT you just need X to be propositional boolean logic, i should think
23:05:33 <oerjan> oh also existence quantifiers
23:06:35 <oerjan> nothing more than predicate logic, anyway
23:09:25 <oklopol> we have a complexity theory course next year \o/
23:09:26 <myndzi\> |
23:09:26 <myndzi\> >\
23:09:47 <oklopol> i like to think it's because of me because i asked if they're gonna give courses on it
23:11:11 <uorygl> Aww, I want to take a complexity theory course next year.
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23:11:44 <oklopol> there's also tilings and patterns & cellular automata
23:12:16 <oerjan> (oh my)
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23:13:28 <oklopol> not sure the rest is that interesting
23:13:36 <oklopol> maybe i should stare at the courses again
23:13:40 <uorygl> But I'm stuck taking stuff like MTH 210 - Communicating in Mathematics.
23:13:41 <oklopol> i like to do that every few days
23:13:48 <oklopol> heh
23:13:52 <uorygl> "A study of proof techniques used in mathematics. Intensive practice in reading mathematics, expository writing in mathematics, and constructing and writing mathematical proofs. Mathematical content includes elementary logic, congruence arithmetic, set theory, functions, equivalence relations, and equivalence classes."
23:14:14 <uorygl> I already know elementary logic, set theory, functions, equivalence relations, and equivalence classes!
23:14:20 <uorygl> Congruence arithmetic, not so much.
23:14:33 <oklopol> so you'll be studying the first 5 pages of every math book intensively
23:14:56 <oklopol> you don't know congruence arithmetic? Z/nZ is a field iff n is a prime
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23:15:21 <uorygl> If congruence arithmetic is the same thing as modular arithmetic, I do know it already.
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23:15:28 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it is
23:15:31 <oerjan> i should think so
23:15:40 <oklopol> we're pathetic
23:15:43 <oklopol> i KNOW it's the same.
23:17:04 <uorygl> I wonder what I'm supposed to do if I already know all the listed topics.
23:17:07 <oklopol> uorygl: the interesting thing is nZ are actually ideals of the ring Z, and in general we know R/I is a field iff I is a maximal ideal of R, and obviously nZ is maximal in Z iff n is a prime (n = mo = mZ is a bigger ideal)
23:17:17 <oklopol> err
23:17:18 <oklopol> typo
23:17:29 <oklopol> (n = mo => mZ is a bigger ideal)
23:17:43 <oklopol> uorygl: take some other course
23:17:53 <uorygl> This is a prerequisite for everything.
23:18:12 <oklopol> you actually have to take prerequisite courses before taking the actual ones?
23:18:21 <uorygl> Literally every required math course has this as a prerequisite.
23:18:29 <oklopol> in finland we can do what the fuck we want and everything's free
23:18:38 <uorygl> I hope you're exaggerating. :P
23:18:44 <oklopol> i'm not
23:18:48 <oklopol> well there are laws
23:18:57 <oklopol> and not all courses give you useful credits
23:19:16 <oklopol> but you can take any course you want to, and go to whichever lectures you choose, just do 25% of homework and take the exam
23:20:08 <Sgeo> uorygl, what course is this?
23:20:15 <uorygl> When you say "in Finland", are you referring to a specific university?
23:20:21 <uorygl> Sgeo: MTH 210, Communicating in Mathematics.
23:21:19 <oklopol> i think all universities are free here
23:21:32 <uorygl> "Free" in the sense of being able to take any course you want to?
23:21:53 <oklopol> i mean they cost nothing, i'm also rather sure you can take any course you want to in most unis here
23:22:02 * uorygl nods.
23:22:17 <uorygl> I thought such places didn't exist.
23:23:11 <oklopol> there's also these unicorns who guide ppl from one lecture to the next
23:23:49 <pikhq> oklopol: Allow me to make your jaw drop then. (because mine already has)
23:24:05 <pikhq> In the US, $20,000 a semester is not an unusual cost for college.
23:24:57 <oklopol> i actually considered going to an american uni for a year mostly for the language, so i knew that
23:25:01 <pikhq> Some universities can cost significantly more than that.
23:25:10 <oklopol> but yeah that's pretty horrible
23:25:24 <uorygl> I think $20,000 seems pretty expensive.
23:25:28 <pikhq> I think the Ivy Leagues can get up to $100,000.
23:26:10 <Sgeo> I think for my (crappy) college, it's ~$3,000/semester
23:26:14 <fizzie> There are some courses at our place that are a bit more strict than usual with the prerequisites, and also some that take a limited number of people and you have to specifically apply for them, but in general what oklopol says goes here too.
23:26:33 <pikhq> (though they tend to have full-ride programs if you are accepted and can't afford to pay that)
23:27:53 <pikhq> uorygl: I'm counting books, fees, board, not just tuition.
23:28:06 <pikhq> Oh, I should also mention. $20,000 is also quite often for state-funded schools.
23:28:11 <uorygl> I think that's still expensive. Not sure.
23:28:22 <pikhq> They have the nerve to charge for tax-funded institutions.
23:28:25 * Sgeo doesn't live at school
23:28:35 <uorygl> Sgeo: have you talked to those financial aid dudes yet?
23:29:06 <Sgeo> Considering that my dad's now paying for an unlimited data plan, I think I'll hold off
23:29:19 <Sgeo> >.>
23:29:38 <uorygl> If this is out of gratitude, you're making me slightly angry. :P
23:30:01 <pikhq> Hooray, capitalism.
23:30:27 <uorygl> Grand Valley State University's tuition is $4,315 per semester if you're taking 12-16 credits.
23:31:10 <pikhq> Wait, I was saying semester when I meant year. XD
23:31:18 <uorygl> Or $6,694, or something in between, depending on whether you're a Michigan resident or not, and on whether you're lower or upper division.
23:31:30 <uorygl> Oh. In that case, $20,000 isn't so expensive.
23:32:58 <pikhq> But, yeah. America seems to feel that education is a privledge for the wealthy or people willing to go in debt for much of their lives.
23:33:05 <pikhq> Ain't it "wonderful"?
23:33:14 <uorygl> I guess we're weird that way.
23:33:31 <pikhq> uorygl: By "weird" you of course mean "getting boned".
23:33:55 <uorygl> So, how come so many of us #esoteric people are Scandinavian-type people?
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23:55:12 <uorygl> Swedish politics is complicated. There are too many parties. :P
23:56:32 <coppro> could be worse
23:56:34 <coppro> could be too few
23:58:31 <uorygl> Yeah. I need to figure out how this coalition stuff works.
23:58:56 <pikhq> I take it you're unfamiliar with parliamentary systems?
23:59:03 <uorygl> Completely.
23:59:05 <pikhq> (as used in pretty much every democracy but the US)
23:59:36 <uorygl> The US is, in a few ways, the strangest country in the world. :P
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