←2010-04-27 2010-04-28 2010-04-29→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:47:16 <Rugxulo> slightly bugfixed B93 Rexx interpreter here (works with OORexx now): http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.rexx/browse_frm/thread/f3184cef1db1c9e9#
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00:49:52 * Rugxulo guesses alise finally went to sleep
00:50:39 <Rugxulo> http://sourceforge.net/projects/oorexx/
00:51:00 <Gregor> REXX?
00:51:04 <Gregor> What a blast from the ... never.
00:51:31 <Rugxulo> ooREXX isn't old ;-)
00:51:44 <Rugxulo> besides, it has x86-64 builds, so nyah :-P
00:51:45 <oerjan> Rugxulo: um alise is only here on weekends, mostly
00:51:53 <Gregor> Yes, in the same way that Object Pascal isn't "old" ...
00:52:21 <Gregor> Object-oriented COBOL is only eight years old.
00:53:12 <pikhq> Object-oriented Brainfuck is very young indeed.
00:53:12 <Rugxulo> they're all old !! (Lisp, BASIC, Fortran, C, C++)
00:53:27 <pikhq> Can't even be represented in a natural.
00:54:01 <Rugxulo> ooREXX apparently has .deb, .rpm, Win64, etc. binaries available
00:54:30 <oerjan> pikhq: actually someone has probably made it, it's just one of those gluing stuff to skateboard things
00:54:34 <Rugxulo> and whatever the heck "rte.bff" means
00:55:12 * oerjan actually uses actually a bit much, perhaps. actually.
00:58:32 <pikhq> I beseech thee to continue.
00:58:59 <oerjan> me or Rugxulo?
00:59:23 <pikhq> Thou, Oerjan, thou.
00:59:24 <Rugxulo> presumably not me ;-)
00:59:41 <oerjan> ic
01:00:26 <oerjan> it just seems a bit out of place with "actually" when i am wildly guessing that something probably is true
01:00:46 <oerjan> actually.
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02:31:38 <Gregor> http://lonelydino.com/?id=200 8-D
02:38:03 <oerjan> Gregor: the last original comic link isn't working
02:38:36 <Gregor> oerjan: I'm aware, that happens quite often actually, it's because the mapping isn't bidirectional, so I count on Google to have a smart reverse mapping ...
02:40:23 <pikhq> You could, alternately, write a script to create the appropriate mapping.
02:43:38 <Gregor> Yeah, but then I'd have to keep the mapping up to date, yuck :P
02:43:47 <pikhq> cron job
02:45:36 <Sgeo_> You shouldn't count on companies like Google </deliberately-hypocritical>
02:46:29 <Sgeo_> If Google wanted, they could probably take over every aspect of my life
02:50:56 <Gregor> There, it's fixed.
02:50:59 <Gregor> Now stop complaining.
03:05:24 <Mathnerd314> huh, never heard of lonelydino before
03:08:05 <Gregor> It's the Reader's Digest version of Dinosaur Comics :P
03:10:25 <Mathnerd314> Dinosaur Comics has... 1701 comics?
03:10:44 <Mathnerd314> and you have 200?
03:10:53 <Gregor> Yup
03:11:23 <Mathnerd314> and it's less than a year since you started
03:11:39 <Gregor> Yup
03:12:49 <Gregor> Think of it this way: There are 4,921,675,101 possible 3-panel comics. If .001% of these are funny, that's nearly 50,000 comics :P
03:13:18 <Mathnerd314> yeah, 7 years of comics with the exact same pictures...
03:14:15 <Mathnerd314> I wonder if there's ever April Fools :p
03:14:54 <Gregor> http://lonelydino.com/?id=181
03:15:25 <Gregor> :P
03:16:02 <Mathnerd314> they all end with *sob*?
03:16:38 <Mathnerd314> oh no, just those
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03:17:35 <Mathnerd314> some of them are two-panel...
03:19:04 <pikhq> Gregor: 4,921,675,101 possible... And increasing very rapidly!
03:19:20 <Gregor> Yesh!
03:20:32 <Gregor> It'll gain 8,685,307 possibilities tomorrow.
03:20:40 <Mathnerd314> they have to be without the other dinosaurs?
03:20:58 <pikhq> Yes, that's the gimmick.
03:21:01 <Gregor> If they weren't, T-Rex wouldn't be very lonely.
03:21:24 <Mathnerd314> so why does the comic munger have the other 3 panels?
03:22:05 <pikhq> The comic munger was a random thing Gregor made, and Gregor then discovered that T-Rex being lonely was funny.
03:23:08 <Gregor> Couldn't've said it better myself *shrugs*
03:24:04 <Gregor> Ryan North claims he still reads T-Rex is Lonely :P
03:24:52 <Mathnerd314> I'm not that inventie :-/
03:24:57 <Mathnerd314> *inventive
03:24:58 <pikhq> I read it still.
03:25:21 <pikhq> It's like Garfield Minus Garfield, except less surreal and more funny!
03:25:38 <Gregor> A bit less tragic too :P
03:26:13 <Gregor> (Except when it's not)
03:26:58 <Mathnerd314> hmm, how's this: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5&comics=1460,501,291
03:27:49 <Mathnerd314> boring, yes?
03:28:24 <Gregor> A bit. Actually it's too reminiscent of a normal Dinosaur Comic ... one sec, dredging up a news post I made once.
03:29:11 <Gregor> See http://lonelydino.com/?id=17
03:29:19 <Gregor> The Pseudo-News section.
03:31:06 <Mathnerd314> hmm... so mine is the second category?
03:31:57 <Gregor> Nearly, but it doesn't have the sort of "T-Rex fails at everything" conclusion that makes those funny.
03:32:17 <Mathnerd314> oh
03:32:25 <Mathnerd314> maybe I should read the original? :p
03:32:54 <pikhq> Yes, Dinosaur Comics is amazing.
03:33:18 <Mathnerd314> it's just a bit too large
03:33:19 <Gregor> It's awesomesauce.
03:33:24 <Gregor> It takes a commitment :P
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03:36:41 <Mathnerd314> hmm... better or worse than my first: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5&comics=1043,1155,18&strip
03:37:28 <Mathnerd314> maybe taking out the middle panel would work :p
03:37:42 <Mathnerd314> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,5&comics=1043,18&strip
03:38:03 <Gregor> Hahaha, yes.
03:38:18 <Gregor> Reminds me of http://lonelydino.com/?id=58
03:38:46 <Mathnerd314> yay :-)
03:40:05 <Mathnerd314> why is alt text of that "Khaaaaan!"?
03:40:27 <Gregor> Bizarre reference to http://lonelydino.com/?id=7
03:40:56 <Gregor> (Also, to be confusing)
03:40:59 <pikhq> Also a non-bizarre reference to a certain Star Trek film.
03:41:10 <pikhq> "Wrath of Khan: it was actually good."
03:41:10 <pikhq> :P
03:43:51 <Mathnerd314> oh, I actually remember seeing that
03:44:13 <Mathnerd314> at least, at the end where the coffin hits the planet
03:46:28 <Mathnerd314> maybe I should sit down and watch the series sometime, so it actually makes sense :p
03:54:27 <Sgeo_> http://1pd.org/play/4479_exploit.aspx
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04:10:15 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: TOS had good moments, TNG is quite good after the first two seasons, DS9 was quite good, and after that is a decade of shit.
04:15:07 * Sgeo_ wonders if that Exploit game is TC
04:18:42 <Mathnerd314> TC?
04:18:54 <Mathnerd314> oh, turing-complete
04:30:00 <Mathnerd314> I wonder how much of it is true ;-)
04:30:16 <Mathnerd314> keyboard shortcuts would be way cool
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05:00:17 <oerjan> wtf
05:01:39 <oerjan> norway and russia have agreed on the border line
05:02:03 <oerjan> it only took 40 years...
05:02:21 <oerjan> *sea border
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05:32:07 <pikhq> Hah.
05:32:17 <oerjan> ?
05:32:33 <pikhq> Maybe soon the RoC and the PRoC can agree on each other's existence.
05:35:08 <coppro> seems unlikely
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05:35:43 <coppro> just as unlikely that Canada and the US settle their maritime border disputes
05:36:05 <pikhq> Ah, right, they actually do dispute that.
05:36:06 <oerjan> pikhq: it seems the chinese take a little more time to conclude, as a quote in the same newspaper article mentioned
05:36:27 <oerjan> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zhou_Enlai
05:36:45 <pikhq> I note that the RoC doesn't recognise any border changes since 1945...
05:37:09 <pikhq> Crazy.
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06:09:38 <augur> http://www.fantasysupplies.co.uk/Arm-Dildo-938.html
06:36:58 * Mathnerd314 is too tired to care about anything
06:37:00 <Gregor> Looks ... awkward. Not sure why that's a good position in terms of control.
06:37:24 <Mathnerd314> wow - within 5 seconds!
06:37:45 <Gregor> I wait for somebody else to be typing before I ever type.
06:38:04 <Gregor> augur: I guess if you had one strapped to both biceps, it would look pretty cool slash creepy ... slash slash :P
06:38:26 <pikhq> Like Edward Penishands.
06:38:51 * Mathnerd314 googles
06:38:56 <Gregor> I ported gnuplot to my eInk reader. Plots on eInk = friggin' amazing.
06:39:40 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: you probably want to make that "scissorhands"
06:39:47 <coppro> Gregor: which reader?
06:39:53 <Gregor> coppro: iRex DR800SG
06:40:05 <coppro> what's the processor?
06:40:08 <pikhq> oerjan: No, the porn I references was actually "penishands". Real thing.
06:40:18 <oerjan> pikhq: O_O
06:40:30 <Gregor> coppro: "400MHz Freescale i.MX31L"
06:40:37 <pikhq> oerjan: And no, it's not any good.
06:40:37 <coppro> never heard of it!
06:40:38 <oerjan> i suppose i _shouldn't_ be surprised :D
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06:40:52 <pikhq> Something Awful had a hilarious review though.
06:40:53 <Gregor> coppro: It's the world's most hackable eInk reader :)
06:41:16 <Gregor> coppro: GPL SDK, runs X11 + GTK+, porting stuff to it is so easy it's fun.
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06:41:45 <coppro> Gregor: In other words, it has a GCC backend? :P
06:42:06 <pikhq> coppro: And UNIX!
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06:42:27 <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries.
06:42:34 <coppro> that's true
06:43:06 <pikhq> Gregor: I'd imagine the Catholics would dislike an actual "we own your sperm" license.
06:43:20 <pikhq> After all, every sperm is sacred.
06:43:39 <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor laws.
06:44:12 <coppro> how do I operate the quote bot?
06:44:26 <pikhq> With your FISTS
06:44:31 <Gregor> Use `quote <foo> to search, `addquote <foo> to add
06:45:05 <coppro> `addquote <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor laws.
06:45:09 <HackEgo> 155|<Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing
06:45:13 <coppro> :(
06:45:15 <coppro> boo
06:45:39 <Gregor> Heh, output length restriction :P
06:46:01 <pikhq> Because realloc is hard.
06:46:16 <Gregor> No, because not making FreeNode kick you off is hard.
06:46:35 <Gregor> Remember, I use buffer.h, realloc is trivially simple :P
06:46:42 <coppro> that's not an output length restriction
06:46:45 <pikhq> Uh, the output length restriction is part of the IRC protocol.
06:46:47 <coppro> at least, not from the network
06:46:56 <coppro> (and, as pikhq says, the protocol)
06:47:06 <fizzie> Yes, but that's a shorter restriction than the IRC limit.
06:47:11 <coppro> that length restriction is internal to HackEgo
06:47:14 <Gregor> pikhq: The problem is that the restriction is on the whole line, but my stuff is modularized in such a way that I can't easily restrict it there, so I have to restrict it conservatively.
06:47:15 <pikhq> Ah.
06:47:39 <coppro> and I guess you can't assume a 9-character limit to the nickname either
06:47:57 <Gregor> Mathnerd314 says I can't.
06:48:08 <Gregor> And on the other network it's on, I'm not sure if they have any limit at all :P
06:49:26 <coppro> ##this-channel-name-is-so-veryv-very-long-good-luck-getting-a-word-in-edgewise-really-really-i-dare-you-youll-find-it-pretty-tough-to-do-so-try-it-youll-fail-just-watch-theres-no-way-around-it-sucker-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah (and so on until you reach the actual limit)
06:49:57 <pikhq> The IRC line length limit is... Pretty silly.
06:50:08 <coppro> sensible when fixed-length buffers were the norm
06:50:11 <fizzie> Usually the nick length limit is told to the client at connection-time; freenode says, for example, "NICKLEN=16 CHANNELLEN=50 TOPICLEN=390".
06:50:22 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, when gets was in use...
06:50:22 <coppro> fizzie: per the spec, it's officially 9
06:51:51 <Mathnerd314> anyways, I have standardized tests tomorrow
06:51:58 <Mathnerd314> bye
06:52:22 <coppro> I have what is nearly the most important assignment of the year due tomorrow :/
06:52:31 <coppro> and it aten't done
06:52:38 <coppro> and I'm tired
06:52:44 <coppro> :(
07:00:18 <Quadrescence> coppro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJECLN4S00
07:00:46 <coppro> huh
07:00:54 <Quadrescence> is that ur fave song
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07:01:31 <coppro> no
07:01:37 <coppro> that involves someone else talking
07:01:41 <coppro> not me
07:07:35 <AnMaster> <Gregor> And on the other network it's on, I'm not sure if they have any limit at all :P <-- 31 tends to be common
07:08:14 <AnMaster> <coppro> fizzie: per the spec, it's officially 9 <-- sure, but no one follows the spec
07:08:30 <coppro> EFNet does
07:08:47 <AnMaster> coppro, okay, but apart from them and possibly ircnet: no one does
07:25:16 <fizzie> IRCnet is also, I think, rather spec-adherent, yes.
07:25:47 <fizzie> The newer set of RFCs do say that: "While the maximum length is limited to nine characters, clients SHOULD accept longer strings as they may become used in future evolutions of the protocol." I guess everyone else has just decided to do "future evolutions" by themselves.
07:26:43 <pikhq> The IRC RFCs are typically taken as mere suggestions, anyways.
07:27:22 <coppro> yeah
07:27:31 <coppro> the CTCP colour spec is never used, for instance
07:30:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, everyone but ircnet completely ignored the newer version
07:30:58 <AnMaster> for example
07:31:06 <AnMaster> that line with "NICKLEN=16 CHANNELLEN=50 TOPICLEN=390" in it
07:31:09 <AnMaster> is not in any spec
07:31:13 <fizzie> Sure is.
07:31:21 <fizzie> In an expired internet-draft, that is.
07:31:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, no? isn't that the 005
07:31:33 <AnMaster> which is used for more than one thing
07:31:35 <AnMaster> XD
07:31:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh? really?
07:31:52 <fizzie> An expired draft is still pretty speccy enough!
07:31:56 <fizzie> See http://www.irc.org/tech_docs/draft-brocklesby-irc-isupport-03.txt
07:32:13 <AnMaster> mhm
07:33:32 <fizzie> I'm having the AI competition "debriefing" / prize-giving / whatever session in half an hour; don't have much to say, should have prepared even more colorful graphics for it instead.
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07:34:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, who won?
07:34:56 <fizzie> One two-person group took both the first and second places (they're allowed to submit two bots).
07:35:19 <fizzie> They submitted the same thing with slight tweaks in the computation-time management logic.
07:35:36 <fizzie> Which is, I guess, reasonable; there's two of them, now they'll get two prizes.
07:41:57 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you have nothing better to do, here's some slides with statistics on the tournament in Finnish on them; you can read it for the pictures. :p http://zem.fi/~fis/htloppu10.pdf
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07:48:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, I do have something more important to do (sadly)
07:50:14 <fizzie> Well, the slides won't go anywhere.
07:50:40 <fizzie> I should probably go set up the laptop there, and see if the projector is again somehow borken; that classroom tends to have Issues(tm).
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08:20:29 <augur> are any of your esofags also metalfags?
08:25:45 <olsner> there's metal in the buckling springs of my keyboard, they make sounds... does this mean I listen to metal?
08:26:51 <augur> :p
08:26:55 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/dmnm.pdf
08:28:12 <olsner> grr, this pdf viewer always makes its window about 1.25x the size of my screen
08:31:57 <olsner> oh, that was too long for my attention span
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08:35:36 <oklopol> oerjan: Ping
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08:53:41 <oklopol> people write about music in a really stupid way
08:54:22 <oklopol> if you write an article related to music and you don't need to mention any specific melody, you're not actually saying anything
08:54:59 <oklopol> and don't try to disagree, this is how i define not actually saying anything
08:57:02 <oklopol> oerjan: it would be a lot nicer if you came NOW, and didn't wait for me to leave first
08:57:24 <oklopol> i have just one line to say, so i could just say it now, but that would be stupid
09:05:45 <fizzie> We should have that message-passing bot.
09:06:02 <fizzie> Then you could say it now, and it'd be repeated when oerjan says pong, and it'd be somehow much less stupid.
09:06:10 <fizzie> Magically.
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09:20:33 <oklopol> yes true
09:24:12 <AnMaster> <augur> are any of your esofags also metalfags? <-- Do you smoke metalfags using a blowtorch? ;P
09:24:29 <augur> AnMaster: yes, obviously
09:24:52 <AnMaster> augur, well, I don't smoke. I guess that is why I didn't know that.
09:24:52 <fizzie> AnMaster: Heh, there was a total of two (2) out of fourty-four (44) participants present at the prize-giving occasion.
09:25:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, those two being the winners?
09:25:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: Right, but places #3 and #4 would've gotten prizes too, had they been there.
09:25:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, did it say so somewhere?
09:25:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, I mean, maybe they missed that 3 and 4 got prices too?
09:26:13 <AnMaster> perhaps you should email them and tell them what they missed out on
09:26:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what did the various prices consist of?
09:27:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, it's not exactly written down anywhere, because the exact number that get prizes depends on how many prizes the guest lecturer / Hierarchy designer happens to bring; but I've said to them that "3-5 best" get rewards, informally.
09:28:01 <fizzie> Anyway, obviously you should come there not because of the prizes but because you want to participate in lively discussion about the course-project.
09:28:12 <fizzie> And colorful graphs.
09:28:55 <fizzie> I even had a video, though I forgot to show it; it would've been a spectacularly boring 12 seconds, anyhow.
09:32:18 <oklopol> fizzie: could've been worse
09:32:20 <oklopol> in fact
09:32:23 <oklopol> could've been TWO worse
09:32:38 <fizzie> Twice as worse.
09:32:42 <oklopol> yeap
09:40:06 <AnMaster> hm
09:40:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what did the prices consist of? You didn't answer that
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09:41:25 <oklopol> oerjan: the thing i wanted to tell you was just that i was really disappointed by how "groups are categories", you just use the morphism composition as monoid multiplication... i thought it'd be something cool like identifying groups by what their automorphisms always look like or something
09:41:47 <oklopol> it's quite important i'm sure you'll find
09:42:06 <oklopol> something that's not obvious
09:43:12 <AnMaster> <fizzie> We should have that message-passing bot. <-- memoserv?
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09:50:03 <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh, right. There was some chocolate, and some bottles; it's one of the most non-dry Finnish celebrations soon -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night#Finland -- and it's a particularly student-oriented one. Nothing extravagant, anyhow.
09:51:29 <fizzie> I'm not sure memoserv is quite as convenient; and it's so off-channel. I was thinking more like #scheme's bot, which would wait until the message recipient said something publicly, and then repost the message on channel.
09:54:55 <AnMaster> ah
10:18:39 <oklopol> fizzie: are you going to party hard?
10:19:17 <oklopol> is vappu the one where there are balloons if you're a kid
10:19:56 <fizzie> Re balloons; yes, I think so.
10:20:04 <fizzie> We're just going to stay at home and not go outside.
10:20:24 <oklopol> we're doing even better and visiting her parents
10:20:34 <oklopol> they live nowhere
10:20:49 <oklopol> vihti
10:21:02 <fizzie> Though I did consider a balloon; the cat we had when I was young(er) was most interested in them, perhaps the current one might be too.
10:21:25 <fizzie> You can tie some sort of a cat toy in the balloon string; insta-amusement without having to do anything.
10:21:29 <oklopol> well that's some long lasting fun for your cat there.
10:21:42 <Quadrescence> I just received a book on an esoteric language :)
10:21:48 <fizzie> I guess there's the claw-and-balloon problem, though.
10:21:52 <oklopol> which one?
10:21:54 <Quadrescence> Their perspectives are pretty neat
10:22:16 <Quadrescence> oklopol: http://i.imgur.com/6EYM3.jpg highly recommended so far
10:22:33 <oklopol> yummy
10:22:48 <oklopol> i once read half a book about cobol
10:22:49 <oklopol> i think
10:22:53 <oklopol> i don't remember anything
10:22:57 <oklopol> i was like 6
10:23:12 <oklopol> emphasis on the like
10:23:54 <fizzie> I have a friend who I think was somewhat cobol-skilled, but personally don't know anything about it. I don't think it's consensually considered an esolang, though? More like semi-obsolent and businessy.
10:24:08 <AnMaster> oh "walpurgis night" == valborgsmässoafton?
10:24:09 <AnMaster> right
10:24:12 <AnMaster> that is big here too
10:24:37 <AnMaster> bonfires are traditional
10:25:06 <fizzie> We don't do bonfires except at midsummer.
10:25:24 <AnMaster> at midsummer? How strange ;P
10:25:43 <fizzie> From the Wikipedia article I got the impression that the tone is a bit different for this one in Finland and Sweden.
10:25:53 <fizzie> The main article image for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsummer is a Finnish bonfire, in fact.
10:26:27 <fizzie> I think midsummer bonfires are not a Finnish-only thing, though.
10:26:51 <AnMaster> for midsummer in Sweden, maypoles are traditional.
10:27:30 <AnMaster> it isn't called maypole in Sweden though (that would be the wrong month!)
10:27:44 <AnMaster> it is called "midsommarstång" which mean "midsummer pole"
10:28:50 <fizzie> The subsections for Brazil, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Lithuania, Norway, Portugal, Russia and Ukraine and Spain mention the word "bonfire" in them.
10:29:06 <fizzie> The Sweden bit does note that in "Sweden and parts of Finland the tradition of bonfires are not part of midsummer but of the "Valborg's" evening festivities when winter leaves for summer."
10:29:21 <AnMaster> quite
10:29:49 <fizzie> I'm not sure which parts of Finland those are; not the eastern ones, I think.
10:36:01 <fizzie> Incidentally, I also picked up a rather interesting book from the "getting-rid-of" bin of the local library; it is a guide for translating (not porting, not understanding, just translating according to a rigid set of rules) FORTRAN-II and FORTRAN-IV programs to ALGOL-60 and back. There's large tables of hardware specs for different 1960s-era computers (most of which I've never heard of) and all other sorts of curious miscellania.
10:46:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, probably some of the Swedish speaking parts
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10:47:09 <AnMaster> bbl
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11:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Why the hell did Apple think that it was a good idea to make the hash key alt-3?
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15:29:37 <oerjan> oklopol: pong
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15:38:05 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Why the hell did Apple think that it was a good idea to make the hash key alt-3?
15:38:15 <oerjan> well it's shift-3 here
15:38:23 <oerjan> (norwegian keyboard)
15:38:51 <oklopol> so how about the same thing for rings, is it a cheat
15:39:19 <oklopol> i'm not sure my ping and the rest of my thing was in the same place, if not keep reading
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15:39:32 <oerjan> rings as categories? i think that's a bit harder... _however_:
15:40:26 <oerjan> if you are already in the category of abelian groups, then the single-object subcategories are of course endomorphism rings
15:40:55 <oerjan> although you might need more than that single object to extract the ring operations
15:41:01 <oklopol> category theory books tend to go pretty fast from exact proofs to "look at this commutative diagram here and you'll see" a bit too quickly for me
15:41:45 <oerjan> (addition that is. there's a way of extracting it using categorical products and/or coproducts)
15:42:12 <oklopol> i see
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15:42:42 <oerjan> or maybe it was limits/colimits
15:42:57 <oklopol> well i don't really know any of those thing yet
15:42:59 <oklopol> *things
15:43:08 <oerjan> ok
15:43:13 <oklopol> well i suppose i do know products to some extent
15:43:51 <oklopol> which of course means i know coproducts!
15:44:12 <oklopol> the duality of understanding
15:44:17 <oerjan> well they're almost the same thing in abelian categories (such as the category of abelian groups)
15:44:34 <oklopol> what are abelian categories?
15:44:38 <oerjan> (since sum of two abelians groups is isomorphic to their product)
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15:45:10 <oklopol> that any two morphisms A -> A commute?
15:45:22 <oerjan> i don't recall exactly, but _basically_ i think those are the categories where you can do that trick to define group operations on the morphisms A -> B
15:45:50 <oklopol> emm umm okay
15:46:41 <oerjan> so basically they _look_ like the objects are abelian groups and the morphisms are group homomorphisms, as far as category theory can detect. iirc.
15:46:58 <oklopol> okay that makes sense
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15:47:13 <oklopol> doesn't really tell me anything tho
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15:47:35 <oerjan> there may be some other things, like products and stuff should exist (which you need to do that trick anyway)
15:47:51 <oerjan> maybe i should check wikipedia that i'm not completely bullshitting
15:50:31 <oerjan> ok not _too_ far from the truth
15:53:27 <oerjan> what i said may be somewhat closer to an _additive_ category, which has only _some_ of the properties of an abelian category
15:53:29 <oklopol> :)
15:53:36 <oklopol> okay
15:54:26 <oklopol> i should probably go read some topology
15:54:31 <oerjan> basically (1) in a _preadditive_ category, morphisms form abelian groups, but not necessarily in a way you can extract from the category
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15:55:16 <oerjan> in an _additive_ category, you have enough structure (biproducts, it seems) that you can get the addition out from just category properties
15:55:39 <ais523> ooh, category theory
15:56:05 <oklopol> "morphisms form abelian groups"
15:56:10 <oklopol> in what way exactly?
15:56:11 <oerjan> an abelian category though, also has some other ways of combining objects categorically
15:56:39 <oerjan> so you can do more of that diagram chasing stuff etc.
15:57:32 <oerjan> oklopol: well for a preadditive category, i think you just have the addition as extra structure, Hom(A,B) comes with it for every object A and object B
15:57:57 <oklopol> oh.
15:58:03 <oklopol> well i guess that's neat
15:58:19 <oerjan> for an additive category however, you don't need to include anything extra, it's uniquely definable using the biproduct thing
15:58:31 <oklopol> wanna elaborate on biproduct?, or is it in parens so you don't have to
15:58:36 <oklopol> *?
15:58:54 <ais523> hahaha, SCO have just submitted a motion to rule that the jury judged SCO vs. Novell incorrectly
15:58:59 <ais523> that's... pretty amazing
15:59:59 <ais523> <SCO> The jury verdict in this case is the type for which Rule 50(b) and Rule 59 exist. The jury simply got it wrong: The verdict cannot be reconciled with the overwhelming evidence or the Court's clear instructions regarding the controlling law.
16:00:32 <hiato> ais523: I fail to believe there issuch a law/avenue for motion
16:00:35 <oklopol> ais523: what was it that you you had a permutation proof for exactly, group theory related
16:00:39 <oklopol> *-you
16:00:43 <oklopol> it was ages ago
16:00:47 <ais523> oklopol: Fermat's Little Theorem, probably
16:00:53 <oerjan> oklopol: it seems to be a product that is also a coproduct of the same objects. for abelian groups products and coproducts coincide, so it's a natural property there
16:00:54 <oklopol> hmm ah right
16:01:05 <oerjan> (finite ones that is)
16:01:23 <ais523> hiato: this is SCO we're talking about; they're likely to try more or less anything
16:01:40 <ais523> rule 50 says that if there's no evidence/legal arguments to favour one side of a court case at all, it can be thrown out without going to the jury
16:01:45 <ais523> and SCO are trying to invoke it retroactively, it seems
16:02:49 <oerjan> oklopol: the definition seems to also require a zero object in the category, so that some morphisms combine to zero
16:03:27 <hiato> ais523: Well, if that doesn't scream 'this legal sytem is a farce, then nothing will. Surely you cannot overturn a judgement made within the law based on, what seemes to be a lack of solid evidence one way or anothr combined with the fundemetal tennant of "innocent until proven guilty", or can you?
16:03:48 <hiato> s/ce,/ce',/
16:03:51 <ais523> hiato: SCO only submitted the motion, that doesn't mean that the judge has to pay it any attention
16:03:51 <oklopol> anyway other fun theorem that follows from almost the same thing, x^p = 1 in any group has kp solutions, k>1; consider equivalence classes by conjugacy on the set S = {(x_1, ..., x_p) | x_i \in G, \product x_i = 1}, clearly (1, ..., 1) \in S, so there must be kp, k>1 different (x, ..., x) style tuples in S (because all conjugates of S's elements are in S)
16:03:52 <oerjan> (say when you have a morphism that sends something only to the A part of A x B, combined with a morphism that projects down to the B part)
16:04:05 <oklopol> err
16:04:06 <ais523> but yes, the case has been a farce for almost a decade now
16:04:11 <oklopol> conjugacy being xy -> yx
16:04:34 <hiato> ais523: but we all know it will drag on for another five years like this, if they can keep cheating
16:04:58 <ais523> hiato: yes
16:05:22 <oklopol> err, that is
16:05:56 <oklopol> |G| has to be divisible by p
16:06:18 <oklopol> gah i should've thought this through before saying it, i read the proof like 4 weeks ago :P
16:07:42 <oklopol> point is, for every p-1 first elements in a tuple we have exactly one way to finish the tuple to get the product to be 1, so we have |G|^(p-1) tuples in S, so p | |S|, NOW if you take equivalence classes by conjugacy, you see the amount of (x, ..., x) tuples has to be divisible by p, because every eq class has either 1 (x, ..., x) element, or then p elements, because p is prime
16:08:12 <oklopol> and xy = 1 ==> yx = 1, ofc
16:08:49 <oklopol> so the amt is kp, k>1 because at least (1, ..., 1) is there
16:11:13 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm not sure i'm capable of doing this stuff without being completely formal, yet, the cat stuff that is
16:11:42 <oklopol> or maybe it's just because i don't remember products that well
16:11:51 <oklopol> or understand
16:11:53 <oklopol> or love
16:12:07 * hiato :)
16:12:58 <oerjan> oklopol: hey i'm not doing it either, just describing the buzzwords :)
16:13:08 <oklopol> sometimes you form a product category, but sometimes you find an object C you call the product of A and B in the *same* category as A and B, if it has the cool splitting property that morphisms to A and B can be combined into
16:13:10 <oerjan> to do it requires pen and paper
16:13:22 <oklopol> this confused me for quite a while when reading about them
16:13:58 <oerjan> oklopol: i would assume a product category is a product of two objects in the category Cat
16:14:17 <oklopol> well right, i guess that's why reading math books is so hard for me, i clarify every detail to myself, but i never use paper
16:14:38 <oklopol> hmm yes i suppose it is
16:14:46 <oerjan> assuming, since i don't recall what a product category actually is
16:16:00 <oerjan> but it's probably a natural enough thing (natural being also a technical term, naturally :D)
16:17:03 <oklopol> if C category, and A, B \in C, then (AxB (\in C), outl (also in C), outr) is the product of A and B iff for every pair of morphisms f1 : D -> A, f2 : D -> B there's a unique morphism g : D -> AxB such that outl . g = f1, outr . g = f2
16:17:04 <oklopol> iirc
16:17:31 <oklopol> yes it's natural, but i haven't been able to see how that's naturality in the category theory sense...
16:18:35 <oklopol> anyway in the intuitive sense that is rather natural
16:19:46 <oerjan> i think if something in category theory looks natural, then there is probably a technical sense of naturality which it fulfils. or at least functoriality or similar.
16:20:18 <oklopol> probably, and probably i have already seen how that's natural exactly, but i didn't know what was going on yet
16:20:32 <oerjan> that product definition looks fair enough
16:20:34 <oklopol> i'm a very slow learner
16:20:44 <oklopol> it was an oerjan style iirc
16:20:53 <oerjan> heh
16:22:07 <oerjan> now add the dual inl and inr for a coproduct, and if the _same_ A x B is also the coproduct, with some added equations, then it's a biproduct
16:22:29 <oklopol> oh hmm
16:23:08 <oerjan> outl . inl = id_A, outr . inr = id_B, outl . inr = 0_B->A, outr . inl = 0_A->B
16:23:26 <oklopol> so coproduct would be (AxB, inl, inr) is the coproduct of A and B iff for every pair of morphisms f1 : A -> D, f2 : B -> D there's a unique morphism g : AxB -> D such that g . inl = f1, g = f2 . inr
16:23:33 <oerjan> that 0 notation invented on the fly, it means it's the unique morphism factoring through the zero object
16:24:02 <oklopol> those are requirements not properties?
16:24:34 <oerjan> at least the zero parts, i think, the identities might be automatic
16:25:11 <oklopol> at least outl <split> outr = id_(AxB) is automatic
16:25:24 <oklopol> so i'd imagine other id things might follow automatically too
16:25:25 <oklopol> :)
16:25:29 <oerjan> yeah
16:25:46 <oerjan> fwiw maybe even the zero parts follow somehow
16:27:37 <oerjan> oh it seems it does, there is something in the properties section of wp:Biproduct
16:28:54 <oerjan> oh hm maybe not quite
16:29:09 <oklopol> factoring through the zero object?
16:29:31 <oklopol> how can i read something like that without realizing i have no idea what it means
16:29:52 <oklopol> this is why math is so hard, i always confuse not understanding and not knowing
16:30:02 <oerjan> a zero object is an object such that every object has exactly _one_ morphism from it and one to it
16:30:11 <oklopol> but umm
16:30:13 <oklopol> ohh
16:30:16 <oklopol> terminal & initial
16:30:22 <oerjan> initial + t .. right
16:31:03 <oklopol> okay i thought zero was a nickname for initial, because of the sets |I| = 0 & |T| = 1...
16:31:34 <oerjan> so if a morphism is a composition of something into the zero object and out of it, then there is only one way of achieving that between A and B
16:31:37 <oklopol> in which case you can't factorize through it
16:32:25 <oerjan> in abelian groups, the zero object is the trivial group, usually denoted 0
16:32:40 <oklopol> yeah i get it, i just guessed the wrong definition, although now that i think about it, "the one object" sounds a bit stupid
16:32:50 <oerjan> for sets initial and terminal are different
16:32:50 <oklopol> hmm yes
16:33:00 <oklopol> yeah they are I and T
16:33:27 <oerjan> singleton object is a fancier name :)
16:34:16 <oerjan> well I is the empty set
16:34:27 <oklopol> i said that
16:34:52 <oklopol> it's YOU who has to spell these things out, not me i can be obscure.
16:34:54 <oerjan> no you didn't
16:35:00 <oklopol> "<oklopol> okay i thought zero was a nickname for initial, because of the sets |I| = 0 & |T| = 1..."
16:35:37 <oerjan> well the difference i'm aiming for here is that there is only _one_ empty set, but many singleton sets
16:36:12 <oerjan> not that category theory cares
16:36:39 <oklopol> T's are isomorphic brethren
16:37:04 <oklopol> are all terminals always?
16:37:11 <oklopol> hmm
16:37:16 <oklopol> don't tell me
16:38:04 <oklopol> T1 and T2 terminal, so f : T1 -> T2 and g : T2 -> T1 unique, so their compositions must be identities because they are *some* morphisms from Ti to itself, and there's just one such morphism because Ti terminal
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16:38:29 <oklopol> and so it's identity, because there's always identity
16:38:40 <oklopol> possibly my first category theory proof
16:38:51 <oklopol> or maybe my fifth, who knows
16:39:30 <oerjan> you cannot know before you construct the category of numbers
16:39:44 <oklopol> ?
16:39:52 <oerjan> (it was a joke)
16:40:04 <oklopol> i guessed, but i still didn't get it
16:40:20 <oklopol> oh...
16:40:39 <oklopol> oh you meant the fifth thing
16:40:42 <oerjan> yeah
16:41:58 <oklopol> ooh
16:42:03 <oklopol> so okay we have some dual result now
16:42:05 <oklopol> let's see
16:42:18 <oklopol> initials are isomorphic too, right
16:43:15 <oerjan> while only terminals are left
16:43:16 <oklopol> i was just about to ask how you can have multiple initials, but that's sort of obvious from how duality emerges in the first place...
16:44:24 <oklopol> right -> left? sorry to call all your jokes, but somehow they just look like random references to things rather than things with two meanings
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16:44:38 <oerjan> clearly right is dual to left
16:44:42 <oklopol> yes
16:45:19 <oklopol> but see i didn't see how that made sense without the reference, it has to make a bit of sense without it too, or it's not a pun but a ...nothing
16:45:49 <oklopol> but possibly it did, and i'm just not seeing it because my brain is asleep
16:46:10 <oklopol> hmm
16:46:49 <oklopol> "initials are ..., right", you could imagine this meaning that "initials are among other things right"
16:46:58 <oklopol> then it would make sense
16:47:04 <oklopol> okay i'm satisfied
16:47:39 <oerjan> well clearly terminals are what's left at the end
16:48:12 <oklopol> when you start isomorphing things?
16:48:32 <oerjan> >_>
16:48:46 <oklopol> can we be more formal about this, too complicated this way :(
16:49:03 <oerjan> i don't know a theory of formal joking, sadly
16:49:17 <oklopol> i c
16:49:47 <oklopol> ".. joking, sadly" <<< this would probably have triggered a pun of some sort if i'd said it?
16:51:46 <oerjan> sorry, we're all out
16:51:59 <oklopol> :)
16:52:06 <oklopol> perhaps some topology now, before this all turns into a farce of some sort
16:52:43 <oerjan> i think that would be stretching it
16:53:41 <oklopol> some homeomorphic images are less natural than others
16:54:15 <oerjan> if you say so
16:54:43 <oklopol> well I'M laughing
16:54:49 <oklopol> well but yeah really ->
16:55:22 <oklopol> (i wasn't laughing)
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18:54:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I have this wild idea of a ASIC for befunge93...
18:55:09 <AnMaster> an*
18:55:16 <AnMaster> preferably async
18:55:27 <ais523> there's nothing particularly asynchronous about befunge93, is ther?
18:55:32 <ais523> *there
18:55:48 <AnMaster> ais523, no but that isn't required. After all an async MIPS CPU was made.
18:55:58 <ais523> and an ASIC for Befunge will never exist, there wouldn't be the demand to make them a million at a time, etc, which is needed to be cost-effective with ASICs
18:56:15 <AnMaster> ais523, true, you could never actually get it on silicon
18:56:20 <AnMaster> but you could design and simulate it
18:56:33 <ais523> why not just program it onto an FPGA?
18:57:05 <AnMaster> ais523, too slow? ;P
18:57:19 <ais523> FPGAs aren't slower
18:57:26 <ais523> they're just larger and more expensive than an equivalent ASIC
18:57:33 <ais523> but cheaper if you don't have the volume :)
18:58:03 <AnMaster> ais523, depends, aren't you limited to the gate level in FPGA
18:58:11 <AnMaster> you couldn't construct a gate it doesn't support?
18:58:25 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and see http://www.async.caltech.edu/mips.html
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18:58:41 <ais523> well, assuming you're using two-valued logic, you can construct any sort of gate you like out of NAND gates
18:58:50 <ais523> or, fwiw, LUTs like FPGAs use
18:58:58 <AnMaster> sure
18:59:01 <ais523> and I don't know what you linked, I've set my client to filter out links
18:59:05 <AnMaster> but it might be less efficient
18:59:15 <AnMaster> ais523, ... so how should I let you see it?
18:59:25 <AnMaster> h t t p : / / www.async.caltech.edu/mips.html
18:59:27 <AnMaster> what about that?
18:59:31 <AnMaster> did that go through?
18:59:32 <ais523> you could just describe what you're trying to show, I suppose
18:59:35 <ais523> and no, it didn't :)
18:59:40 <AnMaster> ais523, ascii graphics?
18:59:44 <AnMaster> ais523, why do you filter urls?
18:59:53 <ais523> because I basically never click on them anyway, and they're just annoying
18:59:58 <AnMaster> ais523, okay what about: www . async . caltech . edu / mips.html
19:00:04 <ais523> I'm not sure if I particularly want to see a bunch of ASCII graphics, for instance
19:00:15 <AnMaster> ais523, sure, but that is what I would have to render the image there as
19:00:15 <ais523> and I got the link that time, but I still don't have any particular impetus to follow it
19:00:29 <AnMaster> ais523, it describes that async MIPS CPU
19:00:33 <ais523> yes, and?
19:00:40 <AnMaster> and afaik MIPS isn't inherently async
19:01:06 <ais523> yes, I appreciate that something that isn't inherently asynch can be programmed into an asynch circuit
19:01:10 <AnMaster> they reached very good speed with it compared to similar size clocked
19:01:10 <ais523> you don't need to show me proof
19:02:50 <AnMaster> ais523, some 2,5 times faster, and adapting to current temperature as required (always runs as fast as possible), also less power usage (no clock signal taking power)
19:02:51 <olsner> asynch cpu == lazy evaluation applied to circuitry?
19:03:03 <AnMaster> olsner, you can follow that link btw
19:03:11 <ais523> olsner: asynch just means there isn't a global clock
19:03:12 <AnMaster> olsner, it is basically "no clock signal"
19:03:16 <ais523> and preferably not local clocks either
19:03:17 <AnMaster> ais523, no clock at all
19:03:23 <AnMaster> as far as I understand
19:03:25 <ais523> so it's independent of strict/lazy
19:03:41 <ais523> AnMaster: if you have local clocks but not global, it's somewhere between synch and asynch
19:04:54 <AnMaster> ais523, possibly there is some to interface with external buses, but otherwise it based on "quasi delay-insensitive circuits"
19:05:04 <AnMaster> I could link to a wikipedia article about it
19:05:08 <AnMaster> but that would be pointless
19:05:23 <ais523> especially as I gave a talk about quasi-delay-insensitive circuits yesterday
19:05:27 <AnMaster> hah
19:05:35 <AnMaster> what a coincidence
19:05:37 <ais523> and am perfectly capable of searching Wikipedia myself, even if I didn't happen to know what they were
19:05:49 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I prefer being helpful ;P
19:06:10 <AnMaster> oh and, if you gave a talk on them I guess you know way more than me about them
19:07:07 <AnMaster> anyway, it seems very interesting. I wonder why current CPUs aren't based on such technology consider it is both faster (it seems?) and uses less power
19:07:13 <AnMaster> ais523, perhaps you can explain that?
19:07:25 <ais523> it's much harder to test
19:07:26 <AnMaster> I mean it has been around for a number of years
19:07:32 <ais523> much much harder
19:07:33 <AnMaster> hm
19:08:15 <AnMaster> what about using a mix though?
19:08:20 <ais523> it's also harder to optimise; with synchronous circuitry you can do all sorts of pipelining tricks and get major performance improvements pretty much for free
19:08:26 <ais523> just by messing with the software
19:08:38 <AnMaster> ais523, just going async seems to give a major performance win though
19:08:42 <ais523> with asynchronous circuitry, pipelining's still possible but you need a bunch of extra circuitry to do it
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19:08:54 <ais523> AnMaster: yep, unoptimised it's considerably faster
19:09:08 <ais523> I'm not sure how optimised synch and asynch compare
19:09:22 <AnMaster> ais523, and you don't depend as much on the delay in the circuit if I understood it correctly
19:09:36 <AnMaster> since it will adapt itself to what is possible(?)
19:09:52 <ais523> well, yes, if you go fully delay-insensitive, but unfortunately that's impossible
19:10:06 <ais523> so you go quasi-delay-insensitive instead, and the delays matter but only in a few places
19:10:10 <AnMaster> right
19:10:16 <ais523> which you can design individually
19:10:29 <AnMaster> seems you are better off than with sync where you depend on it all the time
19:10:58 <AnMaster> no?
19:11:18 <ais523> well, the point is that if you aren't depending on delays, you aren't /exploiting/ delays
19:11:24 <AnMaster> oh?
19:11:33 <ais523> on a modern CPU you can do ten things at once and know the relative times they'll finish at
19:11:37 <ais523> and put instructions in branch delay slots
19:11:39 <AnMaster> right
19:11:40 <ais523> and that sort of thing
19:11:54 <ais523> with asynchronous circuits, none of those tricks work
19:11:55 <AnMaster> ais523, still, not all parts can benefit from that presumably?
19:12:02 <ais523> no, they can't
19:12:15 <AnMaster> so a mixed technology might be useful?
19:12:26 <AnMaster> and how hard has people actually looked at optimising async circuits?
19:12:27 <ais523> yes, and there's research in that ongoing at the moment
19:12:29 <ais523> although it's not me doing it
19:12:34 <ais523> (for the mixed technology, I mean)
19:12:41 <ais523> for optimising asynch circuits, I'm not sure
19:12:46 <AnMaster> I mean, sync circuits are *way* more common as far as I understand it
19:13:15 <AnMaster> it has been extensively researched.
19:13:26 <AnMaster> possibly unlike async circuits(?)
19:13:47 <AnMaster> oh btw "asynch"? "async" seems more common in many places?
19:14:08 <ais523> it may be a UK/US difference
19:14:11 <AnMaster> ah
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19:14:29 <ais523> strangely, computer scientists prefer messing with asynchronous circuits, because the maths is simpler
19:14:40 <AnMaster> heh?
19:14:48 <ais523> but engineers prefer synchronous circuits, because they act much more deterministically when they malfunction
19:14:49 <AnMaster> oh and what if you need low power usage, rather than high speed
19:15:03 <ais523> then you slow down the clock, or don't use one at all
19:15:15 <ais523> the general rule is that changing a value from 0 to 1, or vice versa, takes more power than leaving it the same
19:15:16 <AnMaster> ais523, and for the latter aren't you at async circuits then?
19:15:23 <ais523> well, more current, anyway
19:15:31 <ais523> yes, async is generally better for low power usage
19:15:40 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, but with the clock signal you have d-latches and such changing every clock cycle?
19:16:00 <ais523> but normally you can get a "good enough" effect with a synchronous circuit that turns itself off when it isn't needed
19:16:11 <ais523> and yes, the clock signal transitions twice a cycle by definition
19:16:22 <ais523> or once a cycle if you use both edges, but nobody does (except in DDR memory)
19:16:45 <AnMaster> but considering people are pushing for more and more battery time on various devices, wouldn't there be an advantage with async?
19:17:02 <AnMaster> I mean, even if you have good enough with sync, "even better" might be a selling argument
19:17:33 <ais523> the problem is finding competent engineers to develop it
19:17:35 <AnMaster> ais523, why don't you just double the clock rate in DDR instead?
19:17:43 <ais523> I can't remember
19:17:45 <hiato> it is ;)
19:17:48 <ais523> there is probably a good reason though
19:17:52 <hiato> Double Data Rate
19:17:58 <hiato> and the DDR2
19:18:02 <hiato> *then
19:18:11 <AnMaster> ais523, give the CS people an engineering course?
19:18:12 <AnMaster> ;)
19:18:23 <hiato> 200->400->800->10xx mhz
19:18:28 <AnMaster> sure
19:18:36 <ais523> ah, according to Wikipedia, it's to do with the amount of bandwidth needed to send the clock signal
19:19:00 <AnMaster> ais523, wait what? Doesn't the clock signal has it's own special signaling network anyway?
19:19:07 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
19:19:19 <AnMaster> so what do you mean bandwidth for it?
19:19:19 <ais523> but the point is that you need twice the bandwidth to send the signal twice as fast
19:19:27 <ais523> and just in the signal-processing sense
19:19:30 <pikhq> ais523: HyperTransport also uses both edges of the cycle.
19:19:42 <AnMaster> ais523, how can that be a problem on a dedicated wire
19:19:43 <ais523> wires tend to get overloaded, even sending alternate sequences of 0 and 1
19:19:46 <AnMaster> ah
19:19:50 <ais523> and it's because you need a better dedicated wire
19:19:55 <AnMaster> right
19:20:06 <AnMaster> ais523, capacitance in the wire or something like that?
19:20:09 <ais523> so it was cheaper to complicate the circuits than to build a supercooled semiconductor or something like that just for the clock signal
19:20:12 <AnMaster> or resistance I guess
19:20:13 * hiato just realised he's in over his head, just as with about everything on this channel (:
19:20:17 <ais523> AnMaster: all sorts of effects, although that's one of them
19:20:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: Interference also comes into it.
19:20:37 <AnMaster> hiato, so would I have been about a year ago :)
19:20:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, I can imagine
19:20:51 <AnMaster> what about inductance?
19:20:55 <pikhq> Yes.
19:20:58 <pikhq> When you've got signals that fast, things start getting *picky*.
19:21:11 <AnMaster> as long as we don't get quantum-* I'm happy
19:21:12 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, every electromagnetic phenomenon you've ever heard of
19:21:14 <ais523> plus a few more
19:21:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: Quantum mechanics don't apply outside of the CPU yet. :)
19:21:44 <pikhq> Well. Except for some of those tunneling diodes.
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19:21:46 <ais523> I took an entire module at University just about imperfect behaviours of wires
19:21:54 <AnMaster> ais523, I doubt we get impedance though ;)
19:21:57 <ais523> the failure conditions can be quite crazy
19:22:11 <ais523> AnMaster: impedance is just a measure of resistance, capacitance and inductance simultaneously
19:22:34 <ais523> think of resistance like sin, inductance/capacitance like cos, and impedance like e^x
19:22:44 <ais523> the impedance is a more general concept, but only if you use complex numbers
19:22:50 <AnMaster> ais523, yes quite. That is why you don't get impedance, since that is just a neat way to combine it as a complex number
19:22:58 <pikhq> Older computers didn't have to think about all this crazy stuff. 3MHz clock rate is relatively slow.
19:23:04 <AnMaster> you don't have actual *physical* impedance afaik
19:23:04 <ais523> AnMaster: except no, the impedance is /very/ important
19:23:15 <ais523> you do
19:23:29 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought it was just a way to calculate on the numbers?
19:23:35 <ais523> because, as you go down a wire, the impedance rotates around the origin
19:23:49 <pikhq> Of course, these were the days when it was quite feasible to wire-wrap your computer.
19:23:57 <AnMaster> ais523, as in you don't get 3e^(-j90°) on the actual wire
19:24:08 <ais523> so inductances turn into resistances turn into capacitances turn into resistances turn back into inductances as you go along the wire
19:24:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: Impedance is a real thing.
19:24:43 <ais523> pikhq: no, it's a complex thing
19:24:54 <pikhq> ais523: *rimshot*
19:25:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, that isn't what I have been told. I have been told it was a way to calculate on these things.
19:25:12 <AnMaster> :/
19:25:25 <AnMaster> as opposed to something that actually exists in reality
19:25:28 <ais523> AnMaster: well, in theory you can decompose all the calculations back to resistances and reactances
19:25:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: Arguably so is everything in physics.
19:25:35 <ais523> but arguably reactance doesn't exist in reality either
19:25:41 <ais523> or, fwiw, resistances
19:25:42 <AnMaster> ais523, okay good point
19:25:48 <pikhq> Or force.
19:25:54 <AnMaster> ais523, fwiw standing for?
19:25:57 <ais523> just because you can get a resistor which has a fixed resistance, does that mean that resistance exists?
19:26:00 <pikhq> For What It's Worth.
19:26:02 <AnMaster> ah
19:26:05 <AnMaster> ais523, good question
19:26:30 <ais523> anyway, dealing with impedances is a lot more "natural"
19:26:31 <AnMaster> I guess it is just that people don't like to think that complex numbers exists in "reality"
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19:27:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I know, you can just calculate almost everything as if it was DC current (at least if you have a sinus shaped AC current)
19:27:49 <ais523> AnMaster: here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Smith_chart.jpg
19:28:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I filter links too now
19:28:16 <ais523> ah, ok
19:28:23 <AnMaster> ais523, only from you though ;P
19:28:31 <ais523> fair enough
19:28:40 <AnMaster> ais523, so what is it about
19:28:45 <AnMaster> you should describe it in words
19:28:52 <ais523> basically, the idea is that you can plot impedances on a weird coordinate system
19:29:08 <AnMaster> ais523, you can plot it in polar coordinates afaik?
19:29:10 <ais523> where all possible impedances (apart from ones with negative resistance) get a point on the unit circle
19:29:23 <ais523> you can plot in polar coordinates, but the Smith chart method is different
19:29:33 <AnMaster> oh? what does it do instead?
19:29:47 <ais523> I'm trying to remember
19:30:48 <AnMaster> hm, lets see if I remember this... Re(X) = resistance? Abs(X) = Peak voltage/current? Or did I mix them up?
19:30:50 <ais523> let's see... an impedance of 1+j0 is in the centre
19:31:09 <ais523> AnMaster: X means reactance, so you're messing up in at least some way
19:31:14 <AnMaster> ah
19:31:37 <AnMaster> ais523, no X can't, since X is the parameter there which is a complex number?
19:31:42 <AnMaster> hm
19:31:48 <ais523> AnMaster: impedance is called Z
19:31:53 <AnMaster> ais523, ah right
19:31:59 <AnMaster> terminology
19:32:01 <AnMaster> well sure
19:32:15 <AnMaster> ais523, but Re(Z) is what?
19:32:16 <ais523> anyway, circles of constant resistance all go through a single point at the extreme right
19:32:27 <ais523> and Re(Z) = R = resistance, Im(Z) = X = reactance
19:32:32 <AnMaster> right
19:32:45 <ais523> and Abs(Z) is ratio of peak voltage and peak current
19:33:10 <AnMaster> ais523, so you can get a negative R by combining it with something that rotates it by 180 degrees?
19:33:20 <AnMaster> I mean, on the paper, in theory
19:33:24 <ais523> AnMaster: there is nothing that rotates impedance as a whole 180 degrees, though
19:33:32 <ais523> you can rotate 180 degrees on a Smith chart, but that does something else
19:33:44 <AnMaster> ais523, it would be enough to rotate it by more 90 degrees
19:33:56 <ais523> nothing does that either, without a power supply
19:34:01 <AnMaster> hm true
19:34:06 <ais523> you can make a negative resistor just fine if you have a spare power supply to mess with
19:34:09 <AnMaster> same goes for -90 too
19:34:16 <ais523> or the rather more useful VDNR
19:34:21 <AnMaster> VDNR?
19:34:25 <ais523> which is a negative resistor that depends on frequency
19:34:28 <ais523> umm, FDNR
19:34:34 <ais523> frequency-dependent negative resistor
19:34:37 <AnMaster> eh
19:34:43 <AnMaster> how does that work?
19:34:46 <AnMaster> with a power supply?
19:34:48 <ais523> yes
19:34:50 <ais523> how else?
19:34:51 <AnMaster> hah
19:34:59 <AnMaster> ais523, well, I don't know, magic?
19:35:13 <ais523> even magic doesn't violate the law of conservation of energy, AFAIK
19:35:21 <AnMaster> ais523, or by reversing the polarity. That solves everything after all. Especially for AC circuits ;)
19:35:31 <ais523> so you need /some/ power supply, whether it's made of electricity or magic fairy pixie dust
19:35:42 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, what does rotating 180 in that smith chart do?
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19:36:15 <ais523> AnMaster: Z = 1/Z
19:36:23 <ais523> it reciprocals the impedance
19:36:24 <AnMaster> ais523, turn it into conductance?
19:36:30 <ais523> into susceptance
19:36:41 <ais523> so inductors become capacitors, and resistors stay resistors but with different values
19:36:44 <AnMaster> "susceptance"? That is one I never heard before
19:36:58 <ais523> resistance/conductance, reactance/admittance, impedance/susceptance
19:37:07 <AnMaster> ah okay
19:37:11 <ais523> if there's a generic rule of electronic engineering, it's "if X exist, name 1/X as well"
19:37:15 <ais523> *if X exists
19:37:25 <AnMaster> you forgot capacitance/inductance there, they are pretty much opposites too
19:37:37 <AnMaster> for many practical purposes
19:38:02 <AnMaster> (they might not be if you want to build an electromagnet though)
19:38:23 <AnMaster> ais523, so what is 1/P?
19:38:29 <AnMaster> that is, P that is measured in W
19:38:36 <ais523> that's an exception I think
19:38:39 <AnMaster> how boring
19:38:51 <AnMaster> anyway in what way would 1/watt even be useful?
19:39:03 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, capacitance = 1/inductance if you convert them both to reactances first
19:39:19 <AnMaster> ais523, don't you mean impedances?
19:39:26 <AnMaster> well okay the 1/ moves the other way
19:39:26 <ais523> either
19:39:39 <AnMaster> (in the way you write it down I mean)
19:39:45 <ais523> because the only difference is a factor of j, which mathematicians call i
19:39:50 <AnMaster> yes
19:39:56 <AnMaster> I call it i or j depending on context
19:40:05 <AnMaster> somehow I don't get very much confused by it
19:40:07 <ais523> same
19:40:26 <AnMaster> I'm even used to hitting i on the calculator and writing j on the paper by now
19:41:16 <fizzie> I call it j in MATLAB because I always end up overwriting i by using it as a loop index somewhere.
19:41:30 <AnMaster> ais523, do modern CPUs still use those "full adders"?
19:41:34 <AnMaster> it seems inefficient
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19:41:46 <ais523> AnMaster: for actual addition? yes
19:41:58 <ais523> although maybe not with exactly that circuitry
19:42:05 <AnMaster> ais523, sure, one network for a 32-bit adder would be extremely impractical. but why not take 2 input bits at once
19:42:07 <ais523> for other things, like incrementing the instruction pointer, you don't need a full adder
19:42:09 <AnMaster> like a double-full adder
19:42:30 <AnMaster> it would still be a reasonably simple network
19:42:36 <ais523> AnMaster: actually, they're normally more concerned with carry forwarding
19:42:44 <ais523> and you're thinking of a serial full adder there
19:42:49 <ais523> in practice, ofc, they use parallel full adders
19:42:50 <AnMaster> ais523, hm?
19:42:57 <ais523> which is what I thought you meant to start with
19:43:05 <AnMaster> I know about carry forward
19:43:15 <ais523> hell, they even use parallel /multipliers/, which are O(n^2) in space but O(1) in time
19:43:23 <ais523> where n is the number of bits
19:43:41 <AnMaster> but shouldn't a double full adder + carry forwarding be faster?
19:43:59 <ais523> what do you mean by "double full adder"?
19:44:07 <ais523> a typical full adder adds two numbers
19:44:11 <ais523> which is what you need on x86
19:44:16 <ais523> do you mean, something that adds three numbers?
19:44:17 <AnMaster> ais523, as I said above. it would take more bits than just x_1, y_1
19:44:28 <AnMaster> it would take x_1, y_1, x_2, y_2
19:44:34 <AnMaster> plus a carry of course
19:44:37 <ais523> AnMaster: a 32-bit full adder takes x_1...x_32, y_1..y_32, and carry-in
19:44:55 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and as far as I can find out that would be quite a huge network
19:44:55 <ais523> and modern computers probably have 64-bit full adders
19:45:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not huge
19:45:05 <AnMaster> ais523, oh?
19:45:07 <ais523> think about this: how large is L1 cache?
19:45:11 <hiato> AnMaster: are you designing some sort of cpu?
19:45:16 <AnMaster> hiato, atm yes
19:45:29 <ais523> now, how large is a 64-bit adder compared to an L1 cache?
19:45:30 <hiato> AnMaster: coincidence, I think not
19:45:35 <ais523> even a 64-bit multiplier is likely to be smaller
19:45:40 <AnMaster> ais523, but why do you need carry forward with a 64-bit full adder?
19:45:46 <ais523> AnMaster: so it runs faster
19:45:57 <ais523> otherwise you have to wait for the carry to ripple all the way from one side to the other, and it slows down your clock
19:46:02 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I thought you meant *one* two level combinatorial network
19:46:17 * hiato wonders if this is one of those carry lookahead things, or the funk,y xor ones
19:46:29 <ais523> hiato: aren't those the same thing?
19:46:43 <AnMaster> ais523, that is what I meant for more than 1 bit
19:46:52 <AnMaster> well 1 bit from each number + carry
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19:47:10 <ais523> AnMaster: tbh, it wouldn't shock me in the least if the things had "perfect carry forwarding"
19:47:17 <AnMaster> ais523, which means?
19:47:18 <ais523> where they minimized the circuit for all possible 64-bit additions
19:47:23 <AnMaster> hah
19:47:44 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean like one massive Karnaugh diagram (yes I know there are other algorithms...)
19:47:47 <ais523> obviously that calculation's too big to do by brute force, but it should be repetitive enough to be able to do with a cleverer method
19:47:49 <ais523> yep, pretty much
19:47:55 <hiato> ais523: I cant seem to remember, but IIRC, one does addition sans carry then works it out with it and the other basically does bit addition for each pair with a carry of 1 and one of 0 and then selects, or something through a network
19:48:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I would still like to calculate the size of such a Karnaugh diagram
19:48:32 <ais523> hiato: I'm thinking of the method where you divide the numbers into, say, 4-bit blocks
19:48:33 * AnMaster goes to try it
19:48:48 <ais523> each block has an ordinary full-adder, and there's circuitry which works out in advance what the carry from the block before will be
19:48:52 <hiato> ais523: I will now check wk
19:48:52 <ais523> so it can be used before it's calculated
19:48:59 <ais523> helping to keep the clock cycles short
19:48:59 <AnMaster> ais523, would a 64-bit Karnaugh diagram be 2^32 * 2^32 cells?
19:49:09 <AnMaster> well probably
19:49:19 <ais523> AnMaster: no, 2^64 * 2^64
19:49:25 <ais523> because you have /two/ 64-bit inputs
19:49:30 <AnMaster> oh good point
19:49:38 <ais523> it's kind-of obvious that you can't minimize it that way
19:49:45 <AnMaster> so given a side distance of 5 nm (say) that would give us....
19:49:59 * AnMaster looks for his TI83+
19:50:31 <AnMaster> ais523, wait, is nano 10^-9 ?
19:50:33 <AnMaster> or -6
19:50:33 <ais523> AnMaster: 2^60 is around 10^18
19:50:35 <AnMaster> I always forget
19:50:41 <ais523> and nano's 10^-9
19:50:59 <ais523> so my guess is it's going to be around 16 million metres per side
19:51:05 <ais523> not to mention, you'd never be able to fill in all the cells anyway
19:51:11 <AnMaster> just one side is ~9.22*10^10
19:51:15 <hiato> ais523: http://www.aoki.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/arith/mg/algorithm.html#fsa_csu is the one and http://www.aoki.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp/arith/mg/algorithm.html#fsa_cla is the other
19:51:19 <AnMaster> this is aprox of course
19:51:30 <ais523> Karnaugh maps are there purely for doing things by hand
19:51:41 <AnMaster> I have no concept for what 10^10 meters is
19:52:14 <AnMaster> well units tell me it is less than a parsec anyway
19:52:29 <AnMaster> wait
19:52:32 <AnMaster> that can't be right?
19:52:37 <AnMaster> indeed it isn't
19:52:40 <AnMaster> 342853.06 parsecs
19:52:44 <AnMaster> aprix
19:52:46 <AnMaster> aprox*
19:53:01 <hiato> ais523: as you can see, pretty different things :P
19:53:02 <AnMaster> what is the hubble volume in parsecs?
19:53:10 <AnMaster> hiato, he filter urls
19:53:15 <AnMaster> :/
19:53:24 <ais523> hiato: I filter out links
19:53:28 <ais523> because I never follow them anyway
19:53:42 <hiato> bleh
19:54:15 <hiato> ok, the one is a Carry select adder and the other is a Carry Look-ahead adder
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20:17:28 <oerjan> `calc 10^10 m in parsecs
20:17:40 <HackEgo> (10^10) meters = 3.24077649 10^-7 Parsecs
20:18:14 <oerjan> 10^10 is just 10 billion
20:19:13 <oerjan> the circumference of the earth is only 40 million meters
20:19:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that US billion?
20:19:33 <oerjan> `calc 10^10 m in light minutes
20:19:35 <HackEgo> (10^10) meters = 0.555940159 light minutes
20:19:39 <oerjan> yes
20:19:43 <AnMaster> hm
20:20:09 <oerjan> `calc 10^10 m in light seconds
20:20:11 <HackEgo> (10^10) meters = 33.3564095 light seconds
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21:00:54 <fizzie> `calc 10^10 m in cucumbers
21:00:56 <HackEgo> 1. http://images.google.com/images?q=10%5E10+m+in+cucumbers&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
21:01:06 <fizzie> That's a lot of cucumbers.
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22:34:56 <uorygl> ais523: they have multiplier designs where the time required doesn't depend on the size of the inputs?
22:35:18 <ais523> uorygl: no, but the size depends on them
22:35:20 <ais523> think lookup table
22:35:51 <ais523> it isn't, but has similar speed properties
22:36:00 <uorygl> Mm, right, lookup table.
22:36:25 <uorygl> I just finished taking a class that kind of covers this stuff.
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22:36:46 <uorygl> It covered logic gates, assembly language, and nothing in between.
22:37:23 <uorygl> However, the textbook, "Digital Design and Computer Architecture" by Harris and Harris, covers logic gates, assembly language, and everything in between.
22:37:37 <uorygl> Except for floating point operations. It covers floating-point addition, but nothing else.
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22:58:42 <uorygl> `translate armktokhund
22:58:45 <HackEgo> var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var hide_roman =
22:58:53 <uorygl> `translatefromto no en armktokhund
22:58:55 <HackEgo> armktokhund
22:59:07 <uorygl> Meh.
22:59:19 <uorygl> `translate Han må tydeligvis besøke deg oftere.
22:59:21 <HackEgo> He must obviously visit you more often.
23:00:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:25 <pikhq> `translate 僕がハックエゴと言うボットだ。
23:02:27 <HackEgo> Bot said that I Hakkuego.
23:02:35 <pikhq> Hahahah.
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23:05:45 <AnMaster> uorygl, nothing below logic gates?
23:05:48 <AnMaster> uorygl, such as CMOS
23:06:10 <uorygl> Well, we kind of covered transistors.
23:06:42 <AnMaster> not in much detail presumably?
23:06:49 <AnMaster> uorygl, VHDL?
23:07:12 <uorygl> I don't know if the class even mentioned VHDL.
23:07:33 <uorygl> We covered logic gates, and adders were kind of mentioned, and then it went straight to assembly.
23:07:39 -!- MizardX- has joined.
23:07:41 <AnMaster> aaaargh codu.org is down
23:07:42 <AnMaster> it seems
23:07:48 <AnMaster> The server at codu.org is taking too long to respond.
23:07:51 <AnMaster> a disaster
23:07:52 <AnMaster> Gregor, ^
23:07:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:08:06 <Gregor> Looks up to me.
23:08:25 <Gregor> Is there a particular service it's slowing?
23:08:34 <AnMaster> Gregor, wget http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg yes
23:08:41 <AnMaster> --2010-04-29 00:07:46-- (try: 4) http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg
23:08:41 <AnMaster> Connecting to codu.org||:80... failed: Connection timed out.
23:08:41 <AnMaster> Retrying.
23:08:43 <AnMaster> from wget
23:08:49 <Gregor> Idonno, E_WORKSFORME
23:08:51 <uorygl> So, I'm very glad that the textbook covers almost everything you need to know to design a CPU.
23:09:09 <AnMaster> Gregor, traceroute gets through it seems
23:09:18 <uorygl> I almost want to make a MIPS CPU right now.
23:09:41 <AnMaster> Gregor, 98% procent packet loss
23:09:43 <AnMaster> says ping
23:09:58 <AnMaster> that is quite extreme
23:09:58 <Gregor> E_WORKSFORME
23:10:01 <Gregor> No packet loss, nothing.
23:10:08 <Gregor> Have you moved to China recently?
23:10:11 <AnMaster> no
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23:10:24 <AnMaster> what the hell
23:10:31 <AnMaster> internet traffic report times out
23:10:32 <AnMaster> for me
23:10:50 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:10:51 <AnMaster> Gregor, can you check http://www.internettrafficreport.com/ or http://www.internetpulse.net/ for problems
23:11:13 <AnMaster> I'm timing out from everywhere but google and freenode
23:11:14 <uorygl> Aww, "sletteloggen".
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23:12:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, traceroute indicates huge packet loss at telia backbone
23:12:15 <AnMaster> very close to my uplink
23:12:19 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:12:23 <Gregor> So it's not my fault, therefore I don't care.
23:12:29 <AnMaster> :/
23:12:41 <AnMaster> Gregor, have some sympathy
23:13:59 <Gregor> "Poor AnMaster, boo hoo."
23:14:29 <AnMaster> :/
23:14:30 <uorygl> AnMaster: I might be able to email you that OGG or something.
23:15:12 <Gregor> Presumably he can't do email either *shrugs*
23:16:47 <uorygl> I could /msg it. :P
23:16:53 <AnMaster> I have no idea
23:17:01 <AnMaster> ah internetpulse gets through
23:17:30 -!- olsner has joined.
23:17:38 <AnMaster> codu still times out
23:17:42 <AnMaster> 99% packet loss
23:17:58 -!- fizzie has joined.
23:18:23 <AnMaster> stats are 0,0,13,1,45,47,53,93,88,73,72,79,99 (for each jump)
23:18:35 <AnMaster> which is huge packet loss to codu in other words
23:19:38 <AnMaster> and now internettrafficreport gets through too
23:19:46 <AnMaster> and now it seems things are rerouted
23:20:06 <AnMaster> just 33% loss
23:21:46 <AnMaster> aaand back to 99%
23:25:02 <fizzie> What, you broke the Internet?
23:27:04 <Gregor> So why is it that you have no problems with Freenode :P
23:27:05 <AnMaster> no
23:27:11 <AnMaster> Gregor, EU server
23:27:14 <AnMaster> quite reasonable
23:27:27 <uorygl> We should all get European mirrors.
23:27:35 <AnMaster> well I'm in Europe
23:27:36 <AnMaster> that's why
23:28:01 <AnMaster> from traceroutes to various place it seems the telia nodes it goes through to cross the atlantic causes it
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23:33:36 <uorygl> Huh, Wikipedia says that the Scandinavian cross symbolizes Christianity.
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23:47:21 <ais523> uorygl: sounds like vandalism
23:47:37 <uorygl> It's not vandalism unless it's obviously vandalsim.
23:48:46 <coppro> :P
23:49:33 <ais523> coppro: hmm, you're Canadian aren't you?
23:49:53 <ais523> I'm going there for a conference next-but-one weekend, and am currently in a row about the climate of Ottawa
23:49:58 <ais523> in particular, whether I need to take a coat
23:50:17 <coppro> I couldn't say
23:51:23 <ais523> hmm, honest advice at least
23:51:46 <coppro> I'll ask an Ontarian
23:51:58 <uorygl> For some reason, it was hot in Allendale today despite only being 55 degrees Fahrenheit.
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23:52:39 <ais523> note that I regularly walk around without a coat in the UK even when the temperature's below 0 degrees C
23:53:12 <coppro> the forecast looks good enough for you not to wear one then
23:53:24 <coppro> http://www.theweathernetwork.com/fourteenday/caon0512?ref=qlink_st_14day
23:53:37 <coppro> ... the Ontarian is little help
23:54:24 <ais523> hmm, OK
23:54:48 <coppro> I'd still bring a sweater or something
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