←2010-04-29 2010-04-30 2010-05-01→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:16 <pikhq> That's like getting rid of the ability to rm random files by removing rm.
00:00:18 <ais523> does wall need suid?
00:00:22 <ais523> if not, that's not going to do much
00:00:37 <Gregor> It's sgid tty.
00:00:54 <ais523> hmm, I suppose you could get a similar effect by linking up /etc/passwd and write
00:01:06 <pikhq> That's what wall does.
00:01:20 <pikhq> Well. It hooks up who and wall.
00:01:40 <Sgeo> So wall is a recursive command?
00:01:46 * Sgeo knows what pikhq meant.
00:01:48 <pikhq> Yes, that's how it works.
00:02:00 <Sgeo> Wait, you meant what you said? o.O
00:02:01 <pikhq> s/wall/write/
00:02:21 <pikhq> No, I meant what I didn't actually say.
00:06:18 <Gregor> Have I mentioned that the IREX DR800SG is awesomesauce?
00:06:44 <pineapple> Sgeo: wall?
00:07:00 <Sgeo> pineapple, broadcasts to all users on the system
00:07:10 <pineapple> aah
00:07:23 <Gregor> I notice nobody pointed out how awesome my update to the front page is :(
00:09:25 * Sgeo decides that Gregor is the Lawlabee of the Lawlabee
00:16:09 <Sgeo> I feel more guilty about not feeling guilty than I feel about the whole scenario
00:16:50 <ais523> Gregor: I don't think you should feel that guilty
00:16:58 <ais523> Gregor: I see what you did to the main page
00:17:04 <ais523> and am unsure whether it's vandalism or not
00:17:12 * Sgeo wonders what Gregor did that may be guilt-worthy
00:17:24 <Gregor> It's not vandalism :P
00:17:26 <ais523> *Sgeo:
00:17:43 <uorygl> What front page did Gregor do to?
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00:18:09 <ais523> esolang's
00:21:45 <uorygl> `translate Koira (Canis lupus familiaris tai Canis familiaris)[1] on suden kesy jalostettu muoto.
00:21:49 <HackEgo> Dog (Canis lupus familiaris or Canis familiaris) [1] is a domesticated wolf processed form.
00:21:59 <uorygl> I love domesticated wolf processed forms.
00:23:31 <uorygl> Mmkay, "koira" is "dog", of course, and "on" is "is". And I guess "suden" is "wolf".
00:23:58 * uorygl looks some other stuff up.
00:24:29 <uorygl> kesy is domesticated, muoto is form, so jalostettu must be processed.
00:24:52 <uorygl> Though there's probably a better translation than "domesticated wolf processed form". :P
00:27:43 <Gregor> `translate jalostettu
00:27:45 <HackEgo> processed
00:28:51 <Ilari> 'processed' sounds more what is done to food that makes it unhealthy (if it doesn't happen to be already unhealthy)... :-)
00:28:58 <uorygl> Yeah, it does.
00:29:29 <uorygl> I need to re-learn those verbs that I learned last night.
00:29:42 <uorygl> Not to mention the words for "I" and "me".
00:31:03 <uorygl> "I" is minä, right?
00:31:27 <uorygl> Let's see, those verbs were "lift", "shine", and "get".
00:31:52 <uorygl> `translatefromto en fi I shine and I lift the dog and the dog gets me.
00:31:55 <HackEgo> Olen paistaa ja minä nosta koira ja koira saa minut.
00:32:21 <uorygl> I'm sure that's only approximately right.
00:32:34 <Ilari> That looks only sightly better than intertran... :-)
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00:33:27 <uorygl> So is "I lift the dog" actually "minä nostan koiran"?
00:36:06 <Ilari> Well, unless it has some special meaning, yes. Or "nostan koiran".
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00:42:08 <MizardX> http://rogeralsing.com/category/domain-specific-languages/
00:42:23 <MizardX> Interesting project
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00:54:37 <uorygl> Then "the dog lifts me" is koira nostaa something, right? I've forgotten the word for "me".
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01:10:49 <uorygl> So, my older brother and I are going back and forth trying to name a chain of countries that border each other.
01:10:54 <uorygl> It turns out we're really bad at this.
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01:11:16 <uorygl> Our chain so far: France, Spain, Germany, Austria, the Czech Republic, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Greenland.
01:11:43 <uorygl> The only pair of those that I actually know share a border is Norway and Sweden.
01:14:20 <Gregor> Lawl @ Spain->Germany
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01:14:37 <uorygl> The beginning might actually have been Spain, France, Germany.
01:24:27 <MizardX> spain <-> france <-> (germany, czech republic, austria) <-> (denmark, sweden, norway) <-> finland
01:24:43 <MizardX> (a, b, c) is a, b and c bordering eachother
01:25:08 <MizardX> iceland and greenland are islands, so I don't know how to classify them
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04:53:57 <oerjan> <uorygl> Our chain so far: France, Spain, Germany, Austria, the Czech Republic, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Greenland.
04:54:41 <oerjan> spain doesn't border germany, the czech republic doesn't border norway, denmark doesn't border finland and the last two are remote islands
04:55:21 <uorygl> Does Finland border one of Norway, Sweden and Denmark?
04:55:24 <oerjan> although with extended sea borders, you might get to them
04:55:30 <oerjan> both norway and sweden
04:56:02 <uorygl> So we picked precisely the wrong one.
04:56:25 <oerjan> heh
04:56:52 <uorygl> Our initial attempt at creating a chain of bordering countries went like this: "The United States." "Canada." "Uh..."
04:57:01 <oerjan> norway and iceland have bordering sea economic zones, i think
04:57:02 <oerjan> heh
04:57:15 <pikhq> uorygl: US->Mexico->good luck.
04:57:18 <pikhq> >:D
04:57:29 <oerjan> US -> russia, perhaps? i
04:57:51 <pikhq> Also: note that if you go for "Kingdom of Denmark" you also pick up Greenland and the Faroe Islands.
04:58:09 <oerjan> 'm not sure how close alaska is, although they can apparently see russia from their houses </duck>
04:59:03 <oerjan> canada -> greenland -> iceland -> norway is plausible with economic zone borders, i think
04:59:10 <uorygl> And that's why my mom didn't vote for McCain.
05:00:00 <pikhq> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diomede_Islands_Bering_Sea_Jul_2006.jpg
05:00:01 <uorygl> She'd rather not have her as VP when an old guy's the President.
05:00:15 <pikhq> Left side is US, right side is Russia.
05:00:24 <uorygl> Anyway, it's bedtime; good night, everyone.
05:00:26 <pikhq> 2 miles.
05:00:50 <uorygl> Vitä-or-something!
05:01:31 <oerjan> right, that's even within the political sea borders
05:01:45 <pikhq> Little Diomede has a village on it, Big Diomede only has a weather station.
05:02:40 <pikhq> (Soviet Russia evacuated it to prevent cross-border contact)
05:02:47 <oerjan> huh
05:03:44 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Exclusive_Economic_Zones_Nulles.png
05:06:11 <oerjan> after the latest agreement with russia, if you include sea area norway is the largest nation in europe :D
05:06:24 <oerjan> that requires ignoring russia past the ural though
05:35:38 <oerjan> xkcd :D
05:50:37 <Gregor> Yeah, 's a good'n today.
05:53:34 <pikhq> Humor is present.
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17:02:39 <oerjan> hi alise
17:02:49 <alise> Aye.
17:03:17 <ais523> hi
17:03:31 <alise> I feel rather uncomfortable. I should really wait 'til Friday before going on here.
17:04:17 <pikhq> Yes, well, thy mother.
17:04:24 <pikhq> Also, 'tis Friday.
17:05:08 <ais523> alise: what time zone are you in?
17:05:21 <oerjan> no wonder he is uncomfortable if he doesn't know what day it is
17:05:25 <alise> Er; Saturday.
17:05:30 <ais523> ok
17:06:02 <pikhq> ais523: British
17:06:10 <ais523> pikhq: I know
17:06:15 <ais523> doesn't necessarily mean he's in the UK, though
17:06:22 <pikhq> He is.
17:07:22 <alise> pikhq: but the plan is to not be soon, so...
17:07:30 <pikhq> True.
17:07:39 <pikhq> alise: How's that going, BTW?
17:07:52 <alise> No progress atm. Sorry.
17:07:59 <pikhq> Aaaw.
17:09:00 <Sgeo> :(
17:09:57 -!- hiato has joined.
17:10:28 <alise> pikhq: However, I am considering using some sort of organisational aid so I can enslave you lot to help me with the details of the plan were you so inclined.
17:10:32 <alise> Voluntary slavery; it's the future!
17:11:15 <oerjan> nah, that's _so_ 1984
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17:34:39 <alise> I guess I call a meeting in #esoteric-priv. Invitees are pikhq, Sgeo, ais523, oerjan, oklopol, and just about anyone apart from AnMaster really.
17:37:13 <ais523> in other news, I just contacted the admin of a website because I wanted to register but disagreed with a frivolous term they'd added to the ToS
17:37:17 <ais523> am I crazy, or not?
17:37:43 <alise> Do I really have to answer that?
17:37:57 <ais523> no, you don't
17:38:02 <ais523> I was wondering if someone else would, though
17:38:08 <alise> Well, the answer is yes.
17:38:20 <ais523> for all I know this is one of these competitions to see if anyone actually /reads/ the ToS of websites or not
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17:39:16 <oerjan> well, but were you planning on _having_ any firstborn children, anyhow?
17:39:46 <Sgeo> What was the term?
17:40:38 <ais523> Sgeo: it was a website concerning glitches in Pokémon games; it wanted me to pledge eternal allegiance to Weaviles
17:40:48 <ais523> which is frankly a ridiculous term
17:41:03 <Sgeo> Sounds like a joke
17:42:04 <ais523> obviously
17:42:19 <ais523> just because it's a joke doesn't mean I should disregard it, though
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18:47:30 * pikhq pledges his eternal allegance to Weaviles. Hooray, bug-type Pokemon
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18:55:33 * Sgeo pledges his eternal allegiance to allegiances.
18:56:11 * pikhq can has clang 2.7
18:57:13 <pikhq> It would also appear to be borken.
18:57:20 <alise> <ais523> Sgeo: it was a website concerning glitches in Pokmon games; it wanted me to pledge eternal allegiance to Weaviles
18:57:24 <alise> that's an excellent term
18:57:27 <alise> you should have accepted it.
18:57:36 <alise> or do you have something against Weaviles?
18:59:14 <ais523> alise: how can I discriminate against all the other physical sweepers in existence?
18:59:30 <pikhq> /tmp/cc-P8j8OI.s:203: Error: symbol `.LBA6_instrs_' is already defined
18:59:31 <pikhq> :(
18:59:41 <alise> ais523: you just have to have faith.
19:00:23 <pikhq> *Gah* it actually does try to redefine that several times.
19:00:27 <pikhq> That is *broken*.
19:00:54 <Sgeo> #define PIKHQ "Annoyed"
19:00:59 <Sgeo> #define PIKHQ " More annoyed"
19:01:18 <pikhq> So: clang went from a moderately poor implementation of computed goto to one that *cannot work*.
19:02:41 <pikhq> It appears Gentoo's clang ebuild is... Not actually 2.7?
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19:12:58 <alise> http://ctan.tug.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/comicsans/
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20:03:07 <ais523> happy australian mailman reminders day!
20:03:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:04:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Why does Ubuntu tell you not to have any applications open during the upgrade process? Surely it's irrelevant while you're downloading the package files.
20:05:24 -!- coppro has joined.
20:08:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I also note that they clearly stole the Lucid theme from me.
20:09:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently by hacking into my Facebook account, the scum!
20:10:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it is, but during the actual upgrade, Firefox breaks randomly
20:10:24 <ais523> I haven't seen anything else break randomly though
20:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you upgrading now?
20:11:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Or have you done it?
20:16:52 <coppro> Firefox usually breaks during and after upgrading in my experience
20:20:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, I'm going to go, so bye.
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20:20:34 <alise> And I'm still on 9.04!
20:20:44 <alise> Is Lucid good?
20:21:22 <alise> Incidentally, if anyone's interested, the finite derivative of fib(n) is fib(n) + fib(n-2).
20:24:13 <ais523> alise: I suspect Lucid isn't stable yet
20:24:24 <alise> Is it out, though?
20:24:26 <ais523> yes
20:24:30 <ais523> I'm waiting before upgrading
20:24:33 <alise> Anyway, be interested in my finite derivative.
20:24:47 <ais523> hmm, interesting in a vaguely interesting sort of way
20:25:57 <AnMaster> now that is pretty strange
20:26:11 <alise> !echo http://esolangs.org/wiki/ais523
20:26:21 <alise> aww
20:26:22 <EgoBot> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
20:26:25 <alise> ^ul (http://esolangs.org/wiki/ais523)S
20:26:25 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ais523
20:26:28 <AnMaster> make config in uclibc gives the even stranger prompt: Maximum number of positional args. Either 0 or >= 9. (UCLIBC_PRINTF_SCANF_POSITIONAL_ARGS) [9]
20:26:40 <AnMaster> 0, or >=9, huh?
20:27:11 <alise> ^ul (Hey AnMaster! alise here! I want ais523 to see this: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ais523)S
20:27:12 <fungot> Hey AnMaster! alise here! I want ais523 to see this: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ais523
20:27:49 <alise> !sh echo "Hey AnMaster! alise here! I want ais523 to see this: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ais523"
20:27:49 <EgoBot> Hey AnMaster! alise here! I want ais523 to see this: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ais523
20:27:52 <AnMaster> sigh. 1) that's annoying 2) there is nothing I can do, ais filter urls. At best try adding spaces in it like foo . bar or such
20:28:18 <AnMaster> if there is spam on the wiki or such, why not just tell him
20:28:33 <ais523> if there's spam on the wiki, my RSS client will tell me
20:28:36 <alise> !sh echo ais523 doesn't know how to use a computer though...
20:28:36 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.26333: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `''
20:28:41 <alise> !sh echo "ais523 doesn't know how to use a computer though..."
20:28:41 <EgoBot> ais523 doesn't know how to use a computer though...
20:28:49 <alise> !sh echo "LIKE YOU"
20:28:49 <EgoBot> LIKE YOU
20:28:53 <alise> I am so petty
20:29:04 <AnMaster> ...
20:29:07 <alise> I'll shut up now
20:29:09 * AnMaster ignores the troll
20:29:21 <alise> !sh echo "are there even any bots left for you to ignore?"
20:29:21 <EgoBot> are there even any bots left for you to ignore?
20:31:25 <alise> 13:56:08 <ais523> I find it hard to believe that a link like that could be ontopic
20:31:26 <alise> 13:56:14 <ais523> and if it is, it has a rather unfortunate URL
20:31:31 <alise> In response to "lovethecock dot com"
20:31:34 <alise> What would we do without you, ais523?
20:31:38 <ais523> alise: someone was blatantly trolling
20:31:48 <alise> I just found it an amusing thing to say
20:31:52 <alise> "Well it MIGHT be appropriate... might"
20:31:54 <ais523> and weirding trolls out is the easiest way to get them to leave, IIRC
20:32:47 <ais523> I think in the end the troll just got bored
20:33:04 <ais523> for one thing, posting gay porn links here is likely counterproductive anyway because half the channel will just ask for more
20:33:15 <ais523> so then he tried to start a flamewar, and failed miserably
20:33:30 <alise> 14:02:35 <Gregor> Those of us who enjoy gay porn have some free gay porn links, those of us who don't just ignore *shrugs*
20:33:31 <alise> Let live, man
20:33:33 <alise> Let live
20:34:51 <ais523> why are trolls so bad at trolling nowadays?
20:35:33 <alise> 14:14:35 <ais523> I mean, even the Emacs fans here think vi is perfectly usable, and vice versa
20:35:39 <AnMaster> ais523, probably it is just this channel
20:35:49 <Sgeo> Who was trolling?
20:35:50 <AnMaster> that is hard to troll
20:35:54 <alise> The people in here segregate into {emacs & vi fans} and {emacs & vi haters}.
20:35:56 <alise> It's quite strange really.
20:35:56 <ais523> Sgeo: some newbie
20:36:01 <alise> We added a new dimension to the emacs/vi thing.
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20:36:40 <alise> 14:19:50 <ais523> personally, I like to use the repos in Sweden
20:36:46 <alise> I did that, but it made me think about AnMaster
20:36:47 <Sgeo> When I can't have a nice GUI editor, emacs > vi
20:36:47 <alise> so I stopped
20:36:49 <alise> (seriously)
20:37:13 <ais523> alise: OK, now that's just being petty
20:37:28 <ais523> how can the repos of an entire country be tainted by one of its citizens?
20:37:38 <ais523> unless, it's someone really high-up with the ability to taint repos
20:37:38 <alise> 14:27:46 <fizzie> He lost the finger in a crash, that is; he didn't just lop off a perfectly good finger.
20:37:40 <alise> "Just to clarify."
20:37:47 <alise> ais523: they can't be, it just made me angry every time I did repo stuff
20:38:07 <ais523> perhaps try norway or finland instead, then
20:38:11 <alise> actually, AnMaster has actually contributed to the neg-value of moving to Sweden as a possible escape option; I'm rather crazy
20:38:30 <uorygl> I'm kind of pondering the possibility of going to a Finnish university.
20:38:34 <alise> I mean, what if he runs into me one day. I'd commit murder.
20:38:40 <alise> uorygl: Why?
20:38:51 <uorygl> Because I hear that they're free.
20:39:19 <uorygl> That comes across as a good reason.
20:39:28 <alise> So are they in most countries.
20:39:37 <alise> uorygl: Go to Oxford. The country sucks but the university doesn't :P
20:39:45 <uorygl> I had a feeling that was the case.
20:40:02 <alise> And, well, Oxford is a nice place.
20:40:05 <ais523> university costs money in the UK, though, presumably unless the Lib Dems somehow win
20:40:23 <uorygl> My family is kind of reluctant to pay for university.
20:40:26 <ais523> if you actually live here, they give you a loan for that amount with interest pegged at inflation
20:40:31 <alise> ais523: Well, yes.
20:40:35 <ais523> that you don't have to repay until you get a job
20:40:43 <ais523> so in theory you can pay for it with your own money once you get some
20:40:43 <alise> I hope the Lib Dems win, but I find it unlikely.
20:40:54 <alise> ais523: Still, that's the price of an Oxford education :P
20:41:03 <alise> It's cheaper than MIT.
20:41:04 <ais523> I'm not even going to get a vote this time, I'll be in Canada and a huge argument broke out when I tried to get someone to proxy-vote for me
20:41:19 <alise> (a) why? (b) why?
20:41:22 <ais523> I couldn't fill in the form because nobody technically promised to proxy for me, they spent all their time trying to persuade each other to do it instead
20:41:29 <ais523> (a) conference, (b) I just answered
20:41:33 <alise> and (c) can I come with you to Canada?
20:41:41 <uorygl> I wonder why all university-age kids don't just go to a place where it's free.
20:41:42 <ais523> alise: (c) could be difficult, I imagine
20:41:54 <ais523> especially as only have a temporary visa-equivalent
20:41:55 <alise> uorygl: Family. Friends. Culture. Language. etc.
20:41:58 <alise> ais523: why :(((
20:42:06 <ais523> because I'm coming back again afterwards
20:42:06 <alise> I don't care I'll just tell the unit I'm going on holiday or something
20:42:11 <alise> and then come back
20:42:12 <pikhq> uorygl: Most of the time you have to be in the country to get it free.
20:42:15 <alise> sadly BUT STLL.
20:42:27 <alise> I like Canada it's nice. :(
20:42:28 <Sgeo> Why bother? My dad pays for everything
20:42:48 <ais523> brb, getting dinner
20:42:49 <alise> Estimated time until Sgeo's life comes crashing down and he finds himself completely unable to pay for anything: ???
20:42:49 <pikhq> Which bloody well bones USians. There's no such thing as "free college" here.
20:42:50 <uorygl> What counts as "being in the country", though? It's difficult to attend a university without being in the same country.
20:42:56 <uorygl> Sgeo: I thought he didn't.
20:42:59 <alise> uorygl: Residence?
20:43:00 <pikhq> uorygl: Resident already.
20:43:13 <uorygl> Do you have to be a resident for a certain amount of time or something?
20:43:15 <alise> Or perhaps even citizenship in some countries.
20:43:17 <pikhq> Though I'm pretty sure "being in the EU" counts. :P
20:43:28 <coppro> Even the countries that don't provide education often subsidize it for locals (Canada, for instance)
20:43:50 <Sgeo> It's sad that when I had an issue with XChat just now, I thought of joining the IRC channel instead of just Googling
20:43:56 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, the US doesn't. We're getting freaking boned.
20:44:14 <pikhq> Well. They "subsidize" it by offering subsidized loans.
20:44:33 <alise> I'm not getting freaking boned!
20:44:36 <pikhq> And the universities respond by increasing how much they charge by how much loans one can get.
20:44:38 <coppro> pikhq: It's still usually more expensive to get educated in the US than in Canada even without government subsidies
20:44:50 <pikhq> coppro: Yes.
20:44:55 * uorygl reads about free education on Wikipedia.
20:45:08 <pikhq> Canada is very tempting.
20:45:59 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.).
20:47:28 <uorygl> "In Sweden and Finland, there is no fee for foreign students enrolling at a university, although they may not be eligible for the monthly study allowance and loan most nationals are."
20:48:09 <alise> uorygl: Finland has mandatory military service at 18 btw.
20:48:19 <uorygl> Awesome.
20:48:36 <alise> uorygl: Awesome...howso
20:48:41 <Sgeo> Can "military service" consist of doing programming in a safe area for the military?
20:48:44 <uorygl> Ironically.
20:48:53 <alise> uorygl: Sarcastically surely.
20:48:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes.
20:48:59 <alise> Sgeo: Perhapsssss...
20:49:00 <uorygl> That too.
20:49:05 <alise> But do you want to sleep at night?
20:49:08 <pikhq> Oh, wait. In Finland.
20:49:10 <uorygl> Do they have wars in Finland? :P
20:49:34 <pikhq> There, military service consists pretty much of learning how to operate your weaponry. :P
20:49:36 <Sgeo> If I have no reason to believe I'll be shot the next day, I'll be able to sleep at night, I think
20:50:50 <pikhq> Last time the Finnish army fought, they were holding off Hitler.
20:51:30 <alise> Sgeo: So you don't care about being responsible for deaths?
20:51:40 <alise> I believe the technical term is "sociopath".
20:51:55 <Sgeo> The people shooting or dropping bombs are the ones responsible
20:52:05 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not true.
20:52:11 <alise> But not the person who wrote the "explode and cause tons of damage" code in the bomb?
20:52:14 <alise> Nonsense.
20:52:19 <alise> The blame is equal.
20:52:19 <uorygl> I generally consider deaths to be the responsibility of the people giving the orders, not the people carrying them out.
20:52:24 <alise> What about someone who says "Kill him"?
20:52:28 <pikhq> uorygl: And you'd be wrong.
20:52:30 <alise> If he's not the one who actually fires the gun...
20:52:41 <Sgeo> Or, ok, order givers too
20:52:48 <pikhq> uorygl: You are under no obligation to follow illegal orders, BTW.
20:52:48 <alise> pikhq: Well, I think experiments have shown that directly following orders is not such a crime.
20:52:55 <alise> But doing-military-programming is very detached from that.
20:53:06 <alise> pikhq: But Hitler will still kill you anyway if you don't...
20:53:09 <uorygl> pikhq: I guess you're more right than I implied.
20:53:12 <pikhq> alise: No. Directly following criminal orders will get you hanged for war crimes.
20:53:29 <alise> pikhq: Milgram.
20:53:36 <alise> Is it so wise?
20:53:37 <pikhq> alise: Nuremberg doesn't care.
20:53:51 <alise> I don't care.
20:53:55 <alise> I'm arguing about should-be.
20:54:09 <alise> 22:38:56 <Gregor> I ported gnuplot to my eInk reader. Plots on eInk = friggin' amazing.
20:54:17 <alise> gnuplot = neither free software or gnu! Also ugly output.
20:54:35 <uorygl> Anyway, it seems military service isn't anything to worry about if they're not actually fighting.
20:54:51 <pikhq> Ah. In hypothetical should-be land, starting wars would be the only offense worthy of a death sentence. :P
20:55:25 <pikhq> uorygl: Yeah, the Finnish army appears to be there so that they *can* fight if they happen to be invaded.
20:55:51 <alise> Nothing should be worthy of a death sentence.
20:55:54 <alise> Well, almost nothing.
20:56:32 <pikhq> alise: "Starting the murder of anywhere from hundreds to millions of people"?
20:56:50 <uorygl> He said "almost".
20:56:57 <alise> Killing someone is more costly than imprisoning them until they die.
20:57:06 <pikhq> Why yes, yes it is.
20:57:08 <alise> Or are you doing an argument-by-moral-outrage?
20:57:28 <alise> In which case I'm wholly uninterested.
20:57:39 <uorygl> Argument-by-moral-outrage is the only way to talk about desert.
20:57:41 <alise> Anyway, death is less torture than a life of nothingness.
20:57:56 <uorygl> ("Desert", pronounced like "dessert", meaning "what people deserve".)
20:58:16 <alise> Replace "what people deserve" with "what a society should do", then.
20:58:25 <uorygl> Sure.
20:59:05 <ais523> back
21:01:38 * uorygl notes: .se is Sweden, .no is Norway, .dk is Denmark, .is is Iceland, and .fi is Finland.
21:02:38 <uorygl> Sweden apparently has an official web site at sweden.se.
21:04:16 <alise> Sweden, see?
21:04:22 <alise> uorygl: Switzerland is .ch, if it matters
21:04:25 <alise> (It doesn't matter.)
21:04:30 <uorygl> No, it doesn't matter.
21:04:38 <uorygl> `calc 750 EUR in USD
21:04:51 <HackEgo> 750 Euros = 993.37500 U.S. dollars
21:04:56 <alise> uorygl plans a move at insane speed.
21:05:22 <uorygl> It's only a thousand dollars; therefore, I am going.
21:05:33 <uorygl> Even though none of us have any idea what "it" is.
21:12:49 <Gregor> <alise> gnuplot = neither free software or gnu! Also ugly output. // gnuplot is most certainly free software, and no, of course it's not GNU.
21:13:02 <alise> Actually, it is not free software.
21:13:12 <alise> The program is distributed under a license which permits copying and modification of the source code.
21:13:12 <alise> However, modified versions are only allowed to be distributed as patch files.
21:13:28 <alise> This violates the DFSG for one.
21:13:46 <alise> Hmm, no it doesn't; but it almost does.
21:13:52 <alise> It's certainly not very nice.
21:14:02 <alise> And nicking GNU's name for something so very... unGNUlike isn't very nice.
21:14:27 <alise> Anyway, that iRex still needs a keyboard.
21:14:49 <Gregor> A) GNU sez gnuplot was probably unaware of GNU when they chose the name.
21:14:57 <Gregor> B) The iRex has a tablet screen.
21:15:38 <Gregor> Which you made me call iRex instead of IREX, damn it X_X
21:16:00 <uorygl> I hate how spelling errors are contagious.
21:16:03 <alise> A) gnuplot's official story disagrees
21:16:09 <alise> B) it's not good for typing on, though.
21:16:12 <alise> How light is it?
21:16:18 <Gregor> Quite.
21:16:26 <Gregor> It's not good for longform typing, certainly.
21:16:34 <uorygl> I'm actually pretty happy typing on an iPad.
21:16:39 <alise> uorygl: You have an iPad?
21:16:42 <Gregor> People keep calling "IREX" "iRex" because they're applefags.
21:16:47 <uorygl> No, but I've typed on iPads.
21:16:47 <alise> uorygl: Shame on you :P
21:16:58 <alise> Gregor: Bad name choice :P
21:17:02 <alise> Eye-rex. i rex.
21:17:04 <uorygl> I use one less finger on an iPad than on a real, three-dimensional keyboard.
21:17:08 <Gregor> I, rex.
21:17:12 <alise> Very common Apple+popculture ref => iRex
21:17:17 <alise> + natural aversion to SHOUTING
21:17:20 <alise> Gregor: Hmm... does the IREX have a decent touchscreen?
21:17:27 <alise> As in, could it be feasibly used to, say, use the pen to draw mathematical notation?
21:17:29 <Gregor> It has a /tablet/ screen.
21:17:35 <Gregor> Yes, it's quite accurate.
21:17:38 <Gregor> It's WACOM.
21:17:44 <alise> Ah.
21:17:53 <alise> Hmm.
21:17:59 <pikhq> Wacom? Yeah, that's the freaking best you can *get*.
21:18:02 <alise> I wonder how mathematical handwriting recognition is doing...
21:18:04 <Gregor> It even detects hovering, although the only program that uses it is the web browser.
21:18:16 <uorygl> Do you need to use a pen with it?
21:18:22 <alise> Because if you could write natural mathematical notation and get it plotted, I may be orgasming right now.
21:18:22 <pikhq> uorygl: Yes.
21:18:27 <alise> uorygl: It's a tablet screen, so yes.
21:18:27 <Gregor> Yes, it's a tablet, not a touchscreen.
21:18:45 <pikhq> However, it's of sufficient quality that it suffices as a replacement for paper. ;)
21:18:57 <alise> Gregor: So how light is it?
21:19:02 <Gregor> "Quite"
21:19:06 <pikhq> Rather than a mere vaguely-useful pointing device.
21:19:10 <Gregor> Idonno, it's light enough that it's never bothered me *shrugs*
21:19:14 <alise> Hmm, pikhq makes a good point: Is the tablet good enough to be usable for writing on like paper?
21:19:26 <alise> Or does it look jaggedy, etc?
21:19:29 <pikhq> alise: It's freaking Wacom.
21:19:52 <Gregor> It's a 160dpi screen hooked to a Wacom tablet, it's beautiful.
21:19:57 <Gregor> Although it's eInk so there is a delay.
21:20:11 <pikhq> http://dresdencodak.com/2010/02/09/the-process/ This was drawn on a Wacom tablet.
21:20:17 <alise> Yeah okay, so, I want one?
21:20:18 <pikhq> Any further questions?
21:20:30 <alise> Oh.
21:20:30 <alise> :(
21:20:30 <alise> I no longer want one.
21:20:37 <pikhq> Well. More like "digitally painted".
21:20:45 <alise> I know that Wacom tablets are good.
21:20:49 <alise> That's nothing to do with handwriting.
21:20:51 <fizzie> I have here a Wacom tablet I use for nothing, and it's not quite as nice for writing as paper; I'm not quite sure why. Possibly because the markings appear on a far-away screen, and that sort of witchcraft makes me uneasy.
21:21:01 <uorygl> Guys, stop saying stuff so that I can copy a link from my terminal. :P
21:21:15 <uorygl> Mmkay, resume.
21:21:33 <pikhq> fizzie: The IREX, though, has the display surface *also* be the writing surface. ;)
21:21:40 <pikhq> Also eInk.
21:21:51 <alise> http://dvice.com/assets_c/2009/09/irex_front_page-thumb-550x695-24643.jpg Most WTF ebook demonstration text ever XD
21:22:02 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, that might help. Not sure about the lag, that also sounds a bit otherworldly.
21:22:48 <Gregor> I'm not trying to prostletize the IREX, it really is useful mainly for reading and little else. I've found it to be quite nice for taking notes, but it doesn't FEEL like paper so I can see how others would disagree. If you want a device for reading, it's great, and you may get a few other perks. If you want a general-purpose computing device, go get raped by Apple.
21:23:49 <alise> Gregor: It's just so close to something I really, really want.
21:23:54 <alise> If eInk had computer-display-style lag, or near it, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
21:24:04 <Gregor> Sure, that's a major disadvantage.
21:24:11 <uorygl> About what's eInk's lag?
21:24:15 <alise> Because, quite honestly, a pen and something roughly paper-sized is bliss, no matter what it controls.
21:24:18 <alise> uorygl: ?
21:24:21 <pikhq> uorygl: It exists and is notable.
21:24:25 <alise> Yeah.
21:24:26 <Gregor> uorygl: There are different refresh modes, so it kinda depends.
21:24:31 <alise> So you can't really use it for normal-style handwriting.
21:24:32 * uorygl nods.
21:24:42 <Gregor> The "quick refresh" is very nearly instantaneous, but can create black->white ghosting.
21:24:56 <Gregor> The "slow refresh" is roughly half a second tops, and crisp.
21:25:02 <Gregor> And there are a few modes in between.
21:28:35 <pikhq> It appears to be pretty much the best eBook reader for... Not-sucking.
21:29:32 <Gregor> Looks like the quick-refresh mode can also create white->black ghosting, but that's sort of irrelevant since it's just "slightly lighter text than you expected"
21:30:16 <pikhq> And you could quite reasonably run whatever you want on it, so long as it'll work well with the display.
21:31:06 * pikhq would be *horribly* tempted to shove FreeCiv on there or something
21:31:25 <Gregor> FreeCiv would be bad probably :P
21:31:45 <pikhq> Input could be annoying for that.
21:32:01 <pikhq> The display, though? Modify it to not make things flash, and you're good.
21:32:24 <Gregor> So long as you don't scroll, or move :P
21:36:13 <uorygl> Hmm.
21:36:14 <uorygl> http://www.studyinsweden.se/Course-search/
21:36:20 <uorygl> Is mathematics considered a "natural science"?
21:37:41 <Gregor> I suppose.
21:38:02 <uorygl> Gosh, it looks like they don't teach mathematics in Sweden. :P
21:38:22 <uorygl> Also, it looks like most universities don't have any programs.
21:38:27 <uorygl> I think this search is not comprehensive. :P
21:42:02 <Sgeo> What about a pen and something phone-sized?
21:43:07 <uorygl> Hmm, I think I will ask Reddit what to do.
21:43:17 <fizzie> I feel an urge to say something about that being like doing all your writing on post-it notes, though that's not quite it.
21:45:38 <Sgeo> This is the third time I've dropped my phone, in 3 days
21:46:02 <Sgeo> Also, I'm starting to get Android cold feet
21:46:15 <Sgeo> Wondering if I should return this and wait for the Evo, or return it and get an iPhone
21:46:26 <uorygl> Ouch. I hope its screen isn't as easily breakable as my brother's iPhone's was.
21:46:40 <uorygl> If you're going to drop it, don't get an iPhone. :P
21:54:43 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
21:58:57 <ais523> as for the not-being-required-to-follow-criminal-orders thing, wouldn't people do it because they were afraid of being shot by the person giving the orders if they didn't?
22:00:18 <alise> Sgeo: Do Not Get An iPhone.
22:00:24 <alise> If there is one piece of advice I can give you it is THIS.
22:00:36 <Sgeo> alise, why?
22:00:38 <Sgeo> Don
22:00:43 <Sgeo> Don't say "morality"
22:00:49 <alise> Yes, morality.
22:00:51 <alise> Suck it.
22:01:07 <uorygl> Are iPhone immoral?
22:01:15 <uorygl> (Look, an unmarked plural.)
22:01:16 <Sgeo> Are there any reasons BESIDES "morality"?
22:01:24 <alise> uorygl: Because of the recent ToS changes?
22:01:27 <alise> Yes.
22:01:36 <alise> Feeding a dangerous, actively malicious entity: bad.
22:01:37 <Sgeo> Unmarked plural are immoral!
22:01:37 <uorygl> I'm pretty much completely unaware of the ToS.
22:01:50 <alise> uorygl: Basically, all applications must now be /originally/ written in Objective-C.
22:01:54 <uorygl> Noo! I love unmarked plural!
22:01:59 <alise> You are platonically /not allowed/ to do ANY compilation, whatsoever.
22:02:12 <alise> This also bans all Flash applications, which is no coincidence.
22:02:48 <Sgeo> Because it means there's no "3rd party" between the dev and the system. While I see the argument against requriing a third party, if it's optional, why block it?
22:03:51 <uorygl> Hmm, I really wonder why they require apps to be written in Objective-C. It makes it more difficult to turn an existing app into an iPhone app but not to turn an iPhone app into a non-iPhone app.
22:04:01 <alise> uorygl: To stop Flash.
22:04:06 <uorygl> Oh.
22:04:13 <alise> They have almost admitted as much, and Steve Jobs recently posted a note talking about how crap Flash is.
22:04:40 <Sgeo> Why can't they just say "no converted flash apps"?
22:04:42 <uorygl> You mean it's specifically to make writing Flash stuff less attractive?
22:04:46 <alise> It's basically saying "fuck off, we are creating a beautiful new platonic garden with developers as our sex slaves. And we don't like you. Therefore, time to drive you out of the market with the very visible gigantic hand of Steve Jobs, which has taken a break from its usual activity (masturbation)."
22:04:56 <alise> uorygl: Less attractive i.e. not allowed on the App Store.
22:04:58 <alise> So very much less attractive.
22:05:01 <alise> Not attractive at all.
22:05:04 <uorygl> Right.
22:05:16 * Sgeo does want to see Flash die..
22:05:22 <alise> And, also, any other budding young frameworks like the C# etc. ones.
22:05:31 <alise> Including some "point-'n-click" ones designed for kids and the like.
22:05:44 <alise> Sgeo: I want to see [some horrible person] die, but I wouldn't kill them.
22:05:50 <uorygl> Drag-and-drop programming languages are so cute.
22:06:01 <alise> And I would not support whoever killed them.
22:06:12 <Sgeo> Flash is not a human being.
22:06:20 <uorygl> Flash isn't a person.
22:06:21 <alise> I don't care.
22:06:28 <uorygl> Killing Flash is not the same sort of thing as killing a person.
22:06:30 <alise> The enemy of my enemy: not my friend.
22:06:42 * Sgeo would love to see both Apple and Adobe suffer
22:06:47 <alise> I believe Apple's practices are immoral; so, irrespective of me hating Flash and wanting it to die, I do not support them.
22:06:48 <alise> Simple.
22:07:08 -!- maedhros777 has joined.
22:07:24 -!- maedhros777 has left (?).
22:09:40 * uorygl looks at Adobe's surly error message regarding Flash on the iPhone.
22:10:23 <uorygl> "Apple restricts use of technologies required by products like Adobe® Flash® Player. Until Apple eliminates these restrictions, Adobe cannot provide Flash Player for the iPhone, iPad or iPod touch."
22:10:27 <uorygl> Ahh, surliness.
22:10:37 <alise> No doubt that Adobe are dicks and idiots.
22:10:37 <alise> But that's not really my point at all.
22:11:32 -!- cheater2 has quit (Excess Flood).
22:12:08 -!- cheater2 has joined.
22:13:35 * alise fuddles about with notations for the lambda calculus.
22:14:51 <alise> I think my currently preferred notation is (λx : E) for a λ-abstraction, and (f·x) for application.
22:15:45 <alise> Y := λf : (λx : f·(x·x)) · (λx : f·(x·x))
22:17:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:18:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:22:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are the characters in the log screwed up?
22:23:26 <alise> set charset to utf-8 in browser.
22:23:29 <alise> (in View menu, most likely.)
22:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes...
22:23:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Shouldn't it do that itself?
22:25:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Weird... The progress monitor for the Lucid update has been giving basically the same estimates for time for about 7 hours.
22:26:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone who links to xkcd at this point will be shot.
22:26:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:27:57 <alise> tunes.org is old; clog is crufty.
22:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> clog?
22:36:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Googling just gives footware.
22:36:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Freudian slip...
22:39:05 <alise> clog is our friendly logging bot.
22:39:08 <alise> dustware.
22:40:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
22:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Does anyone else think that it's weird that Hitler has gone from being a hated dictator and mass-murderer to a debating technique?
22:41:18 <alise> Not really.
22:41:30 <alise> Hitler is the most prominent Worst Person Ever; so arguing with Hitler is often simply reductio ad absurdum.
22:41:39 <alise> After all, reductio ad absurdum requires a most-superlative example.
22:42:44 <Ilari> Well, Hitler is just the most prominent example. There are other people that have done Very Bad Things(tm).
22:43:20 <alise> Of course.
22:43:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:43:23 <alise> That's why I said the most prominent.
22:43:33 <alise> When writing an argument, usually you avoid obscure examples unless you need them for some reason.
22:43:50 <alise> So when picking a most-evil person, Hitler is the easiest choice.
22:44:20 <alise> And, I mean, a lot of people even dispute Mao and Stalin's evilosity, but basically nobody disputes that Hitler was evil (and those that do almost certainly aren't going for coherent argument).
22:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I mention this because of this: http://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:Richard_Dawkins
22:44:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Scroll to the bottom.
22:45:24 <alise> Conservapedia contents are hating techniques, not debating techniques :-)
22:45:41 <alise> [[It appears as if both the political left and the political right are beginning to perceive the atheist and evolutionist Richard Dawkins as a "clown". The Huffington Post and the Canadian publication the National Post have both referred to Richard Dawkins as a "clown" recently. Conservapedia is considering adding material to its Richard Dawkins article in order to incorporate the public's growing perception that Dawkins is a clown. Dawkins certainly has a
22:45:42 <alise> penchant for engaging in publicity stunts, yet in far too many cases he fails to provide the public with anything of real importance and substance.conservative 18:18, 21 April 2010 (EDT) ]]
22:45:57 -!- sshc has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:45:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, Kenneth.
22:46:05 -!- alise has set topic: Conservapedia is considering adding material to its Richard Dawkins article in order to incorporate the public's growing perception that Dawkins is a clown. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> A never-ending font of stupidity.
22:46:25 -!- sshc has joined.
22:46:27 <alise> I'm laughing so hard atm
22:46:29 <alise> @ that quote
22:46:49 <pikhq> Dawkins, a clown? LMAO.
22:47:05 <pikhq> He may be the closest thing to an atheist fundamentalist there is, but a clown? LMAO.
22:47:23 <alise> There are far more "fundamentalist" atheists than Dawkins.
22:47:33 <alise> Dawkins is just the only quasi-rationalist in the public eye.
22:47:45 <alise> One of the few well-known atheists not modest or apologetic about their atheism, so...
22:47:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It gets worse: for a while the Dawkins article had the Hitler picture *above the photo of Dawkins*.
22:47:55 <pikhq> Okay, fine. He's the closest thing to an atheist fundamentalist in the public eye.
22:48:08 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: *facepalm*
22:48:22 <alise> pikhq is like Goedel's fabled systems.
22:48:40 <alise> You can show that he knows God doesn't exist, but you can't prove to him that God doesn't exist! This is some sort of or another deep observation that I have done here made.
22:48:44 <pikhq> alise: How so? (I'm missing the reference)
22:48:53 <alise> I find myself wondering down paths of ultimate stupidity, sometimes. This time is one of those times.
22:49:02 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
22:49:16 <alise> Well, by "fabled" I mean "almost all".
22:49:22 <Rugxulo> anyone here code in Perl?
22:49:27 <alise> Fortunately not.
22:49:40 <alise> "#esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org" -- topic until a moment ago
22:50:14 <alise> "For every set x, there exists a set y whose members include:
22:50:15 <alise> * x itself;
22:50:15 <alise> * every subset of every member of y;
22:50:15 <alise> * the power set of every member of y;
22:50:15 <alise> * every subset of y of cardinality less than that of y."
22:50:16 <alise> ...and a pony.
22:50:55 <Rugxulo> !seen mtve
22:51:12 <Rugxulo> er, is there a way to find out when mtve was actually active here?
22:51:17 <alise> No.
22:51:18 <alise> Grep logs.
22:51:22 <alise> But: A while.
22:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What is this "Perl" thing? I have looked at various programs written in it and I can only surmise that it is an esolang of the highest order.
22:52:49 <Rugxulo> seems silly to be on a channel for weeks without saying anything :-/
22:52:50 <Sgeo> My birthday's tomorrow, and nothing interesting is going to happen.
22:53:02 <alise> Rugxulo: Computers, bouncers, etc.
22:53:08 <alise> Higher-order esolangs: quantifying over all possible esolangs.
22:53:15 <alise> Sgeo: I'll bake you a fake cake.
22:53:25 * Rugxulo thinks Perl is way too complicated
22:53:35 <Sgeo> Which is worse, Perl or Bash?
22:53:50 <Sgeo> Girl I know did her final project for a UNIX class in Perl instead of Bash
22:53:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Bash. At least I *know* that I don't know Perl.
22:54:09 <fizzie> I do Perl quite a lot. Well, occasionally, anyway.
22:54:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I use zsh anyway...
22:54:42 -!- Oranjer has joined.
22:54:43 * Phantom_Hoover plugs zsh
22:54:57 <Ilari> Esolang idea: Language with loads of operations with no apparent pattern...
22:55:04 <Sgeo> J!
22:55:31 <Rugxulo> worse, Perl or Bash?? uh ... both can be horribly misused
22:55:39 <Rugxulo> they aren't inherently bad, just not ideal
22:56:07 * Sgeo has heard somewhere "Remember that Perl was invented BECAUSE Bash is such a horrible language"
22:56:11 <Sgeo> Or something along those lines
22:56:14 <fizzie> Why were you asking after Perl people, though?
22:56:31 <Rugxulo> just for random comments, nothing important
22:56:44 <Rugxulo> mtve wrote a Befunge93 interpreter in Perl, for instance
22:57:11 <fizzie> Is this different from CPAN's Language::Befunge module?
22:57:28 <alise> Yes.
22:57:33 <fizzie> Guess so.
22:57:34 <Rugxulo> it works in 5.6.1 but not 5.005, apparently needs "->" added after "{$cmd[$_]}" but before "()"
22:57:34 <alise> I think.
22:57:43 <Rugxulo> yes, it's different
22:57:55 <Rugxulo> Language::Befunge is Jerome Quelin's B98 interpreter
22:58:19 <Rugxulo> long story short, I'm not impressed with how difficult it is to build Perl
22:58:40 <Rugxulo> or how it has changed, how many corner cases it apparently has, too many modules, etc.
22:58:56 <Rugxulo> I don't hate it, but I don't really like it either
22:58:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Corner cases?
22:59:08 <fizzie> It's crufty, but I think it's still somehow endearing.
22:59:12 <Rugxulo> weird idiosyncracies
22:59:15 <alise> So don't build it.
22:59:28 <Rugxulo> well, everything is crufty, it's just it confuses the crap out of me
22:59:34 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Wait, you mean there exist UNIX systems *without* Perl?
22:59:39 <Rugxulo> yes
22:59:40 <alise> Rugxulo uses DOS and Windows.
22:59:52 <pikhq> Oh. That explains it.
22:59:55 <Rugxulo> last I checked, neither FreeBSD nor OpenBSD come with it by default (or did you mean "no port available"?)
23:00:03 <pikhq> Use an OS that lets you develop!
23:00:21 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Not all distros will come with it by default, no.
23:00:30 <Rugxulo> there are several ports for DOS, OS/2, Windows ... it's not that, it's just ugly, complicated, easy to break, too *nix-oriented, etc.
23:00:31 <pikhq> But I can't imagine there being a distro *without* packages for it.
23:01:15 <pikhq> It's still one of the most commonly used languages. Hooray, being entrenched.
23:01:26 <Rugxulo> it's just hard for me to personally justify wanting to use Perl over something else, that's all ... I can't think of many reasons for me to want to use it
23:01:34 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Ugly, complicated, and easy to break? Sounds just like Windows.
23:01:58 <Rugxulo> IMHO, at some point, you can overcomplicate things so much that they almost lose their usefulness
23:02:21 <fizzie> Anyway, you can select a comfortable subset of features and use that, if you like. (But certainly you don't *have* to use Perl if you don't want to.)
23:02:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't use Windows. At all. It makes no sense to me.
23:02:58 <alise> I can use Windows. It's just like social interaction: a bunch of arbitrary, complicated rules; heuristics for emulating them often break, and you're left feeling utterly bemused.
23:03:46 <fizzie> For example, in the arrow thing, you can write consistently "$foo{$bar}->($baz);" if it makes more sense to you. It would to me; I wasn't actually aware that modern Perls have made the ->s between subscripts/parens optional for dereferencing a chain of references.
23:03:58 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Still, use an OS that lets you develop.
23:04:26 <pikhq> If it's non-trivial to get a compiler working, you're doing it wrong.
23:04:54 <fizzie> As for reasons why you might want to use it, CPAN is one; even if the quality does vary, there's certainly a lot of it.
23:04:59 <Rugxulo> the compiler works, just the whole build process of Perl wasn't exactly perfect
23:05:24 <Sgeo> So in Perl, the outcome of "nanosecond" == "nanosecond" is even OS dependent?
23:05:30 <Sgeo> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/8719/166350.aspx
23:05:33 <pikhq> Did the compiler come with Windows?
23:05:41 <coppro> Sgeo: use eq
23:05:42 <pikhq> If no, you're doing it wrong.
23:05:44 <alise> Rugxulo: why not use strawberry perl etc
23:05:53 <Rugxulo> Windows has no compiler by default (I assume you knew that)
23:06:04 <pikhq> Very well aware.
23:06:07 <coppro> == should fail in strict mode
23:06:21 <Rugxulo> alise, I was just curious about building it, I'm aware of pre-made binaries
23:06:41 <pikhq> You can hardly call something an "OS" if it doesn't come with a way of writing new programs.
23:06:48 <fizzie> There's that "windows scripting host" thing in it.
23:06:52 <fizzie> You can write JScript or something.
23:07:04 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I have no clue about the details.)
23:07:12 <Rugxulo> I'm not defending Windows, it does a lot of strange and dumb things
23:07:14 <alise> Yeah, you can.
23:07:17 <alise> It is actually quite nice to use.
23:07:39 <fizzie> Oh, it's Windows Script Host nowadays.
23:07:49 <pikhq> Rugxulo: I'm not even saying you should use Perl. Just an OS that makes developing things nice. ;)
23:07:50 <Sgeo> pikhq, so Android isn't an OS?
23:08:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:08:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, Android is a Linux distribution.
23:08:26 <pikhq> >:D
23:08:41 <Rugxulo> pkhq, what tools are you thinking of, in particular?
23:08:53 <fizzie> You can cut some slack to embedded-targeting things; at least it comes "with" a separate SDK you can fetch.
23:09:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:09:32 <pikhq> ... cc, make, a decent text editor? (for a C-based OS. make only included because it's still the ubiquitous C build system)
23:10:00 <Rugxulo> I think all OSes have ports of those things
23:10:09 <pikhq> (for something Lisp-based, a freaking Lisp compiler and a decent text editor. For Forth, well. Is there such a thing as Forth *without* the compiler?)
23:10:18 <pikhq> I can't not have them.
23:10:40 <pikhq> They're more fundamental than a GUI to my OS.
23:11:16 <pikhq> (the GUI is optional. GCC is not.)
23:11:38 <uorygl> I'm feeling one of those desires to create my own computer system from the ground up again.
23:11:40 <Phantom_Hoover> It's frustratingly inverted on Macs.
23:12:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I have so many times wished that Macs had something more than outdated versions of Python and Perl.
23:12:16 <Rugxulo> what, gcc?
23:12:22 <fizzie> OS X is still "better" than Windows in that regard, since it has the development tools on the installation media, they're not just installed by default.
23:12:42 <uorygl> Macs don't have the most recent versions of Python and Perl?
23:12:47 <fizzie> (At least my discs included some version of Xcode.)
23:12:54 <Phantom_Hoover> No, the ones I was using didn't.
23:13:20 <uorygl> It looks like Python 3.1.2 is available for the Mac.
23:13:41 <fizzie> Available-schmavailable, but I guess this was about what is included in the OS?
23:13:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:14:01 <fizzie> Those tend to be rather old-ish.
23:14:03 <uorygl> And I currently have Perl 5.8.9 on my Mac.
23:14:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but it was a shared computer to which I did not have root.
23:14:35 <Rugxulo> BTW, the only reason for me even trying 5.005 was that it was smaller than 5.61, and I was curious why
23:14:44 <uorygl> Well, that's a problem with the computer, not with Macs.
23:14:48 <Rugxulo> (and of course 5.8.8 is like three times that of 5.6.1)
23:15:23 <Phantom_Hoover> uorygl: Yeah.
23:16:44 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:17:49 <fizzie> You could call it a problem with OS X in the sense that they don't bother using the nifty update system they have for delivering more up-to-date copies of Perl/Python. On the other hand, Debian etch (which was the stable version still at the beginning of last year) has just Python 2.4.
23:18:28 <Rugxulo> is 2.4 so horrible?
23:18:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:18:40 <pikhq> fizzie: Debiant stable, as you well know, is about having the same version of everything until the next release.
23:18:44 <alise> "Despite his dislike for computers it would seem that he had a fondness for video games. On some computers in the Linux labs Dijkstra showed up as having the high score for XBoing. "
23:18:49 <alise> 2.4 is awful
23:18:56 <alise> compared to 2.6
23:18:59 <pikhq> Debian Stable, even.
23:19:05 <alise> so many useful additions in 2.6 -- hardly can be compared.
23:19:05 <Rugxulo> but better than 2.2, 2.0, 1.5.2 ;-)
23:19:22 <Rugxulo> wasn't 2.6 the "brought some stuff from 3.x" release?
23:20:01 <Rugxulo> I think they've even set a five-year-limit to the 2.6 series until officially deprecated (if not already)
23:20:41 <fizzie> I don't think it's very deprecated yet; at least docs.python.org offers 2.6.5 docs by default. (Caution: not really evidence of anything.)
23:21:20 <fizzie> "The current production versions are Python 2.6.5 and Python 3.1.2. -- If you don't know which version to use, start with Python 2.6.5; more existing third party software is compatible with Python 2 than Python 3 right now."
23:22:02 <Rugxulo> even Perl is (apparently) on 5.12.x, which seems odd to me :-/
23:22:32 <coppro> IIRC, either 2.6 or 2.7 will be the last 2.x series
23:22:45 <Rugxulo> here you go
23:22:48 <Rugxulo> "Python 2.7 is scheduled to be the last major version in the 2.x series before it moves into 5 years of bugfix-only mode."
23:22:51 <coppro> there we go
23:23:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:23:44 <Rugxulo> "Float repr improvements backported from 3.x, A backport of the memoryview object from 3.x"
23:24:04 <Rugxulo> in short, Perl 6 and Python 3 are the future
23:25:06 <fizzie> I was just about to mention Perl 6, if you mind Perl 5's historical baggage. I just have some doubts on whether much is happening over there.
23:27:32 <Rugxulo> I think they were almost close to releasing a milestone for it, but one dude's wife had medical issues, so it got slightly delayed
23:28:59 <fizzie> Parrot's language list is funny-long, though I have a feeling most of those are pretty rudimentary hacks.
23:29:27 <fizzie> "Arc, APL, bc, Befunge, Brainfuck, C, Common Lisp, ECMAScript (aka JavaScript), Forth, Generic Imperative Language, GNU m4, HQ9 Plus, Jako, Java, Java bytecode, Joy, Lazy K, Lisp, LOLCODE, Lua, MiniPerl (Perl 1.0), NQP (Not Quite Perl), Octave, Ook!, Perl (via Rakudo), PHP (via Pipp), Python, QuickBASIC 4.5, Ruby (via Cardinal), Scheme, Shakespeare, Smalltalk (via Chitchat), the "squaak" tutorial language, Tcl (via partcl), Unlambda, WMLScript, and .NET bytec
23:29:27 <fizzie> ode." (Wikipedia; can't be bothered to go look at the official list.)
23:30:00 <Rugxulo> yes, some of them are buggy, from what I read, but somebody did fix up the Befunge version a few years ago
23:30:07 * Rugxulo never tried it yet, though
23:30:29 <Rugxulo> "MiniPerl (Perl 1.0)" ... wtf?? o_O
23:30:58 <Rugxulo> QuickBASIC 4.5, yeah right ... even FreeBASIC isn't fully compatible
23:31:15 <fizzie> Aw, it's on the "abandoned projects" list officially; "Written by Jeff Goff. Was in 'languages/miniperl' in Parrot svn repository until r12805."
23:31:27 <Rugxulo> what is?
23:31:31 <fizzie> MiniPerl.
23:31:39 <fizzie> So I can't quite find out what it was.
23:31:41 * Rugxulo wonders what exactly it implemented
23:31:49 <fizzie> http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Languages has the official list, it's not very copypasteable.
23:32:27 <fizzie> Humorously, for the befunge-on-Parrot, "passing tests: 1/1 (100%)"
23:33:21 <Rugxulo> heh
23:33:48 <fizzie> And HQ9+ passes 13/13 tests, and is marked "stable". Well, if you aim low...
23:34:08 <Rugxulo> how the hell ... ?
23:34:18 <Rugxulo> BTW, Befunge seems to have "test.bef" and "pascserp.bef"
23:34:42 <Rugxulo> io.pir (last changed 37 hours ago!)
23:35:22 <fizzie> Obviously under hectic development.
23:35:26 <fizzie> The most important things first.
23:36:27 <Rugxulo> yowza, the "Forth" listed there is almost definitely useless
23:36:57 <Rugxulo> the filesizes are insanely small, as are the tests
23:37:12 <Rugxulo> brb, snack break
23:38:36 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:42:59 <fizzie> Toy Forths tend to be pretty tiny.
23:43:16 <fizzie> LLVM has that "Stacker" language, which is sort-of Forth-like, but also seems pretty useless.
23:45:28 <fizzie> Admittedly I think it was more of a tutorial than something intending to be an implementation of anything.
23:47:42 <fizzie> Completely not related, but: the csharp-mode in my Emacs lets me open one .cs file and edit it without problems, but if I go and open another I start getting strange errors and the indentation and other stuff no longer works.
23:47:57 <fizzie> Some sort of a sign that man is not meant to mess around with C# in Emacs.
23:49:35 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:49:40 <Rugxulo> try opening another frame, see if that helps
23:50:18 <fizzie> Hrm, I'll have to try that the next time. Quit-and-restart works, but it's still a bit annoying.
23:50:31 <fizzie> "Variable binding depth exceeds max-specpdl-size" is what it mostly says.
23:51:27 <Rugxulo> what Emacs are you using?
23:51:56 <Rugxulo> and BTW, Parrot has "Punie" (Perl 1)
23:52:22 <AnMaster> xemacs is dead
23:52:32 <AnMaster> which means there is gnu emacs and µemacs to choose from
23:52:46 <AnMaster> well xemacs might be technically alive
23:52:52 <AnMaster> but it is so dead it doesn't matter
23:53:23 <alise> xemacs is not dead.
23:53:27 <alise> in fact it is actively developed
23:53:32 <alise> -- but you wouldn't see that from inside your gnububble.
23:53:54 <fizzie> GNU Emacs (Ubuntu emacs-snapshot 1:20090909-1), which has CC-mode 5.31.7; csharp-mode is documented to work with "cc-mode 5.31.3, which is current at this time."
23:54:03 <fizzie> Might be just some wonkiness in the snapshot version.
23:55:02 <Rugxulo> I imagine they test cc-mode before shipping it, so assuming you weren't using some outside version, it should work (or so we'd hope!)
23:55:32 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, which MicroEmacs? the most "active" variant was/is JASSPA
23:55:44 <fizzie> Installed "emacs-snapshot" because I couldn't wait for emacs23; now that it's been out a while, I'm not sure I actually need the snapshot.
23:56:26 <Rugxulo> I think is newer than 23.1
23:57:00 <Rugxulo> perhaps that's why
23:57:07 <Gregor> Crazy emacsers.
23:57:11 <alise> JASSPA MicroEmacs is not really micro at all.
23:57:15 <alise> Gregor: Crazy viers.
23:57:20 <Gregor> vim
23:57:58 <alise> Impious viaeity; that then thoroughly descend't into most vain vimaeity.
23:57:59 <fizzie> I'm actually a semi-converted Vimer-for-many-years; wouldn't think it completely impossible that I'd swing back some day.
23:58:14 <Rugxulo> compared to GNU Emacs, it is
23:58:19 <fizzie> Currently I keep trying to use Emacs keys in Vim, and writing ":wq" all over files in Emacs.
23:58:23 <alise> Lo, all ye men of fortune; lo, all ye men poor; the End Times are Come, and Vi is their call.
23:58:34 <alise> Vi, Vi, Vi - the number of the beast.
23:58:35 <Rugxulo> use Viper then
23:58:53 <Rugxulo> or VILE, which is loosely MicroEmacs-based
23:58:53 <alise> And yet there was one clan other, promis't under veils to differ,
23:59:05 <fizzie> Nah, maybe this sort of dual-editoring is good exercise for the brain. It certainly could use some.
23:59:07 <alise> to rid the worlde of these vi-folk numerous; all lies, a facade.
23:59:14 <alise> Do not be fooled, young ones.
23:59:23 <alise> VILE is quite nice actually.
23:59:25 <alise> Not really vile at all.
23:59:54 <Rugxulo> JED is good too, if you prefer reasonable-sized Emacs-ish editors
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