←2010-05-12 2010-05-13 2010-05-14→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:01:22 <Mathnerd314> soupdragon: try the Google AI challenge
00:01:47 <Mathnerd314> (the tron game)
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00:20:35 <AnMaster> <Mathnerd314> you can get it for free, unless it is past May 24th, when you will have to pay money again <-- huh?
00:20:37 <AnMaster> where?
00:20:52 <soupdragon> AnMaster, steam
00:20:54 <Mathnerd314> http://store.steampowered.com/freeportal/
00:20:55 <AnMaster> damn
00:20:58 <soupdragon> but ... the servers are overloaded so try anothre day
00:21:08 <AnMaster> soupdragon, I would play it in wine
00:21:11 <AnMaster> so that is lost
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03:11:07 <oerjan> <pikhq> So, you replace all free instances of "v". ;)
03:11:14 <oerjan> um, no that is not sufficient.
03:12:06 <oerjan> ((\v -> (\t -> v)) t)
03:12:36 <oerjan> you must rename some of the bound instances of variables mentioned in x
03:12:49 <pikhq> Ah, blah, alpha reduction necessary.
03:12:50 <oerjan> (for ((\v->e) x) = e[v := x]
03:12:53 <oerjan> )
03:13:17 <pikhq> "Some more work required"
03:15:46 <oerjan> i've never implemented lambda calculus myself, but i'd guess alpha reduction is a more awkward part than beta.
03:16:19 <pikhq> I'd imagine it'd be less awkward (and less efficient) to just transform it into SK.
03:16:32 <oerjan> (without it no one would bother with all that deBruin index stuff and things, would they)
03:18:01 <oerjan> well yeah abstraction elimination isn't so bad. i have nearly implemented that. (improved someone else's eliminator for "optimizing" unlambda)
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03:43:13 <coppro> oerjan: I recall you explained Norway's voting system to me a while ago. Can you run it by me again?
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03:45:45 <oerjan> each county is a voting district, electing a number of representatives (dependent on population and area)
03:45:55 <oerjan> by proportional representation
03:46:03 <coppro> nothing like STV?
03:47:00 <oerjan> we just choose one party list. it has varied whether we can do amendments of candidate positions.
03:47:59 <coppro> ok, thanks
03:48:00 <oerjan> in addition to the fixed number of direct local representatives, there is 1 candidate per county chosen based on national total votes, to smooth out things
03:48:54 <oerjan> so generally representation ends up pretty proportional to national representation, _provided_ the party gets at least 4% of total votes.
03:49:08 <coppro> how many seats?
03:49:36 <oerjan> however if it dips below 4%, it gets only the direct votes, which can be catastrophal like it was for Venstre last year
03:49:48 <oerjan> 169 i think, let me check
03:50:04 <oerjan> yep
03:50:13 <coppro> interesting
03:50:17 <coppro> is there a place where I can read up on it?
03:50:42 <oerjan> http://www.google.no/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=14&ved=0CFsQFjAN&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FParliament_of_Norway&rct=j&q=stortinget&ei=vGjrS9TLIpef-gb0qJnABA&usg=AFQjCNG3Vy-ocOwR89eLiisHtkKB9XOUbQ GOT FUCKING DAMN GOOGLE
03:50:50 <coppro> also, what's your opinion on how well it works, and does it give voters much leeway in selecting individual candidates they like?
03:50:55 <oerjan> i don't want your fucking redirection
03:51:29 <oerjan> almost no leeway, i don't think the candidate modifications are even used for the national elections anymore
03:51:47 <coppro> okay, so that's a downside
03:51:49 <oerjan> (i guess that link works even if it is annoying)
03:51:52 <coppro> but at the same time, one that's easily fixe
03:51:54 <coppro> *fixed
03:52:03 <uorygl> Koira!
03:52:12 <oerjan> well they _undid_ it, so obviously they didn't like it
03:52:22 <oerjan> or it had almost no effect anyway
03:53:18 <oerjan> oh and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Norway
03:57:15 <oerjan> for local elections there is a lot more leeway though, apparently you can even add candidates from other parties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_municipal_elections#Ballots
03:57:21 <oerjan> assuming that's up to date
04:07:19 * uorygl adds another seven Finnish words to his flash card deck.
04:08:26 <oerjan> flash cards are harmful! steve jobs says so.
04:09:32 <uorygl> Evidently he's had a change of heart, as these flash cards are on my iPod Touch.
04:09:57 <uorygl> I read Apple's Flash spiel; it does have some points.
04:10:13 <oerjan> it's just an old app they haven't got around to deleting yet. expect it to disappear soon.
04:10:25 <uorygl> Aww.
04:10:56 * oerjan hasn't bothered to read Apple's Flash spiel, but cannot avoid noticing all the reddit headlines...
04:11:28 <oerjan> well, technically i _can_, i suppose
04:11:29 <pikhq> oerjan: Flash is proprietary, they say.
04:11:42 <pikhq> While running a proprietary platform.
04:11:48 <pikhq> The irony is nearly corporeal.
04:12:04 <uorygl> Indeed.
04:12:16 <oerjan> that's the gist i got of it, yes
04:12:24 <uorygl> They also said that there should be only one platform, because that way, developers don't need to restrict themselves to the set of common features.
04:12:41 <oerjan> ...
04:12:45 <uorygl> That part of it I kind of disagreed with. :)
04:13:11 <oerjan> that is some very esoteric logic right there
04:16:54 <Sgeo> Sure, if developers would be FORCED to use Flash if Flash was supported, I could understand
04:16:57 * uorygl finally convinces the flash card app that he kinda knows those new seven words now.
04:17:25 <uorygl> That took about ten minutes. Not really too shabby.
04:18:25 <uorygl> Now I can kinda sorta read the first four sentences of the Finnish Wikipedia article about koirat.
04:20:23 * uorygl recognizes "ruokana" as being the essive case and correctly guesses the meaning of "ruoka" by the illustration.
04:22:35 <oerjan> be careful. soon you will start getting this inexplicable urge to drink heavily in hot, steamy places. and carry a knife.
04:22:51 <uorygl> Do Finns all carry knives?
04:23:25 <oerjan> i vaguely think oklopol said something about them being banned in cities
04:23:27 <uorygl> I would never drink heavily in hot, steamy places. Drinking heavily in hot, dry places, on the other hand, is starting to sound like a good idea.
04:23:30 <uorygl> Hmm...
04:23:38 <pikhq> uorygl: Any reason for learning Finnish?
04:23:56 <oerjan> but that doesn't matter, because you will also get an urge to move to a desolate hut in the middle of a forest.
04:24:02 <pikhq> (and yes, I will accept "just because" as an answer)
04:24:10 <uorygl> Well, I like Scandinavia, and I also want to learn a non-Indo-European language.
04:24:14 <uorygl> So, Finnish.
04:24:21 <pikhq> Finnish is Indo-European.
04:24:30 <pikhq> Erm.
04:24:31 * oerjan swats pikhq -----###
04:24:41 <oerjan> IS NOT
04:24:42 <uorygl> You made me check.
04:24:46 <pikhq> No, it's Uralic, isn't it?
04:24:50 <pikhq> Yup.
04:24:59 <pikhq> No wonder it's so weird.
04:25:15 <uorygl> Along with Hungarian!
04:25:24 <oerjan> Igen!
04:25:52 <pikhq> Only Indo-European influences, then, are due to Sprachbund. Fun.
04:28:05 <uorygl> I think after my vocabulary catches up to the first paragraph of this Wikipedia article, I'll have to find a Finn who can explain all these suffixes.
04:28:51 * pikhq shall continue preferring Japanese. Mmm, language isolates...
04:29:17 <uorygl> We should merge language isolates with each other!
04:29:18 <pikhq> (well. Nearly. It *is* related to those pesky Ryukuan languages.)
04:29:27 <pikhq> (ryukyuan. XD)
04:30:18 <uorygl> Well, I must sleep.
04:30:42 * uorygl pauses to allow someone to interject about the unnecessity of sleep.
04:31:05 <pikhq> COFFEE
04:31:09 <uorygl> Good night, everyone.
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10:23:15 <oklofod> what's "peux"
10:23:53 <P4> oklofod: Definition: Put a 501 on, you'll know what I mean. Look good you do ? Example: C'mon Gofa, show me a move :@ Tu peux... pas SUPA MOULANT
10:24:25 <oklofod> are you a markov chain bot?
10:25:31 <P4> no, i'm just passing my supybot's urbandict reply
10:25:32 <oklofod> shit this is some sort of jesus day
10:25:40 <oklofod> yeah figured
10:25:45 <P4> cute (:
10:25:46 <oklofod> can you translate that to english?
10:26:13 <P4> if you asked about polish, i'd say 'yeh', but in case of english - i'm sorry :P
10:26:37 <oklofod> i wanna shoppe, but jesus closed all the shoppes.
10:28:38 <oklofod> okay so "can"
10:28:53 <oklofod> then my guess is "i can use some other weird language"
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10:46:02 <AnMaster> <oklofod> are you a markov chain bot? <-- hm I was wondering that too :D
10:47:07 <AnMaster> P4, what about E...o?
10:47:12 <AnMaster> (see topic for what that is)
10:47:31 <AnMaster> (second section to be precise)
10:50:59 <P4> i don't :P my mom wanted to start learning E...o, but i suppose she's too old for that :P
11:04:40 <gm|lap> what's with people learning E...o?
11:04:57 <P4> they are... different :)
11:05:02 <gm|lap> also i'm working on a semi-actual programming language for R...ZZle
11:06:45 <gm|lap> e.g. for "noose": @f2\n\tgf;\n\t?cb f2; ?\n\t?cr gl ? ?cb gr ? ;\n\tgf;\n@\n\n@f1-\n\tf2;\n\t?cr gl; ?\nf1;@\n\nf1;
11:07:10 <gm|lap> the puzzle is: "BBBBBBBrBBBBBBB<\n......rbr.......\n.....rb.br......\n....rb...br.....\n...rb.....b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...rb.....b.....\n....rb...br.....\n.....rBBBr......\n"
11:07:20 <gm|lap> with a "b" under the robot
11:07:28 <gm|lap> (capital letters contain stars)
11:08:24 <gm|lap> also, after adding a couple of instructions, i've worked out how it's possible to do while loops
11:08:58 <gm|lap> so there's 10 instructions total (turning + moving + painting are functions)
11:09:34 <oklofod> wait i'm confused, what did you come up with exactly?
11:09:48 <gm|lap> a programming language for robozzle
11:10:03 <gm|lap> @name ... @ defines a function
11:10:12 <gm|lap> ?cond ... ? defines an "if true" block
11:10:14 <oklofod> also you seriously underestimate the laziness of irc people if you assume someone is going to copypaste the level in a text editor to see what it looks like ;)
11:10:29 <oklofod> (and you overestimate our intelligence if you assume we wouldn't have to, i think)
11:11:03 <gm|lap> python -c 'print "BBBBBBBrBBBBBBB<\n......rbr.......\n.....rb.br......\n....rb...br.....\n...rb.....b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...b......b.....\n...rb.....b.....\n....rb...br.....\n.....rBBBr......\n"'
11:11:04 <oklofod> do you compile into robozzle?
11:11:17 <oklofod> that might work
11:11:19 <gm|lap> nope, it gets compiled into a bytecode
11:11:46 <gm|lap> it's a stack-based thing
11:12:04 <oklofod> but you can already program in robozzle, aren't you just taking the fun out :P
11:12:14 <gm|lap> it actually helps with some of the harder puzzles
11:12:33 <gm|lap> also it allows for more interesting constructs
11:12:42 <gm|lap> python -c 'print "\n@l_lockup-l_lockup;@\n@l_loop = @\n@l_until_cg ~cg --; ~ @\n\n@f_swp1\n\t@f_swpc\n\t\tf_swp2;\n\t@\n\t@f_fire\n\t\tgf;gr;gr;gf;\n\t@\n@\n\n@f_swp2\n\t@f_swpc\n\t\tf_swp1;\n\t@\n\t@f_fire\n\t\tgr;gr;\n\t@\n@\n\n@f_main-\n\tgr;\n\n\tf_swp2;\n\t\n\tl_loop;=\n\t\tgf;\n\t\t?cr f_swpc; ?\n\tl_until_cg;--\n\t\n\tf_fire;\n\t\n\tl_loop;=\n\t\tgf;\n\tl_until_cg;--\n\t\n\tgr;\n\tgf;\nf_main;@\n\nf_main;\n"'
11:12:59 <oklofod> well it would help with harder puzzles if you compiled into robozzle
11:13:17 <gm|lap> = is "duplicate top of exec stack"
11:13:24 <gm|lap> and - is "pop top of exec stack"
11:14:18 <gm|lap> i DID use it for igoro's "explore the world" thing, though
11:14:23 <oklofod> nono "-" should be nop and " " should be pop!
11:14:44 <oklofod> oh can you somehow test the programs in robozzle anyway?
11:15:02 <oklofod> do you compile into ROBOZZLE bytecode?
11:15:44 <gm|lap> erm, nope, this is my own custom bytecode
11:16:12 <oklofod> but can you run the programs in robozzle?
11:16:15 <gm|lap> nope :/
11:16:26 <oklofod> oh okay
11:16:30 <gm|lap> unless you wanted to make a hack for the JS client
11:16:54 <oklofod> well you could always compile to robozzle, if it weren't for the size limits
11:17:17 <gm|lap> also ";" is "run function named on value stack"
11:17:20 <gm|lap> or something like that
11:17:26 <gm|lap> you push a name onto the stack, not a function
11:17:46 <gm|lap> also you can redefine functions on the fly
11:17:50 <oklofod> call . look-up
11:17:54 <oklofod> = ;
11:18:08 <gm|lap> wait, what
11:18:22 <oklofod> haskell notation
11:18:39 <gm|lap> also what would be a good turing-complete lang to implement?
11:19:04 <gm|lap> would smallfuck do?
11:19:20 <oklofod> haskell is one of the prerequisites for the channel
11:19:38 <oklofod> well you could implement one of my languages?!?!?
11:19:40 <gm|lap> heh, i've been here for several years, mostly intermittently
11:19:47 <gm|lap> e.g. ?
11:19:56 <gm|lap> i'll need to go to bed soon, though
11:20:08 <oklofod> i guess just toi and clue have enough stuff online to be possible
11:20:28 <oklofod> but i'm not sure they are the best ideas
11:20:39 <oklofod> neither is particularly easy to implement
11:21:10 <gm|lap> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue <--?
11:21:18 <oklofod> (or at least not nearly on the level of smallfuck) (also i don't remember what smallfuck is, but i assume it's a simplified bf)
11:21:21 <oklofod> no it's not that one
11:21:24 <oklofod> not in the wiki yet
11:21:39 <oklofod> www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.py maybe
11:21:46 <oklofod> hmm
11:21:49 <oklofod> no
11:21:57 <oklofod> www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar
11:22:04 <oklofod> yay
11:22:24 <oklofod> anyway no documentation, try toi instead unless you want to search esoteric logs for specs :P
11:22:30 <oklofod> well
11:22:45 <oklofod> there's an example program, this dude inferred how the language works from that
11:22:56 <gm|lap> hmmkay
11:23:16 <gm|lap> (the interpreter does not currently implement all of Toi, and is definitely not a reference implementation, it is also incredibly space consuming, hopefully the author will fix it tomorrow)
11:23:22 <oklofod> yeah that's not true :P
11:23:33 <oklofod> it currently does implement all of it, or should at least
11:23:39 <gm|lap> anyways, i'm going to have to go to sleep now, gnight
11:23:53 <oklofod> i thought about fixing that, but then i thought nah
11:23:54 <oklofod> night
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11:24:17 <oklofod> ilut
11:24:34 <oklofod> qt3.14
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11:52:40 <soupdragon> augur: 'IIRC sapir whorf is a theory for babby linguists until they figure out it's wrong.'
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11:59:52 <soupdragon> what's xn--v8jad0f7b6z4eoa6v0hk534a7hlwhnnl8s ?
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12:23:13 <oklofod> let me ask my nondeterministic turing machine
12:23:17 <Deewiant> soupdragon: Probably 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。
12:26:17 <soupdragon> ahh
12:26:48 <soupdragon> (not that I know russian, but I guess you mean that text is what the ASCII encodes)
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12:31:29 <P4> soupdragon: that is chinese, probably simplified :)
12:32:04 <soupdragon> ー_ー
12:41:09 <P4> actually that's japanese "Unicode problem like me." :)
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16:07:46 <oerjan> <oklofod> then my guess is "i can use some other weird language"
16:08:05 <oerjan> `translate étrangère
16:08:20 <HackEgo> foreign
16:08:23 <soupdragon> oklofruit
16:08:33 <soupdragon> oeryam
16:08:36 <oerjan> so not quite
16:08:48 <soupdragon> HackEgg
16:09:07 <oerjan> a soupdragon _really_ shouldn't call other people food, you know
16:09:12 <soupdragon> :P
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21:22:42 <hiato> Anyone wanna stubify the latest articles on the wiki?
21:23:25 <AnMaster> hm?
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21:45:40 <maedhros777> Hey, does anyone have any ideas? I'm creating an esoteric language called Polynomial in which the whole program is a polynomial, statements are in the zeroes of the function. How would I factor the polynomial in the compiler such that the statements are in the correct order?
21:46:04 <maedhros777> I think I could factor it, I just don't know how to do it in order
21:47:08 <maedhros777> By the way, why does it say "I want to use an esoteric language also" in French in the topic? :)
21:47:30 <hiato> maedhros777: I'm not sure I follow you, you want to find the roots of a polynomial in 'order'?
21:47:31 <Ilari> If roots are rational, there are tricks for finding the roots...
21:48:14 <maedhros777> I know how to get the roots, I'm just wondering how the compiler would distinguish between (x + 5)(x + 3) and (x + 3)(x + 5)
21:48:17 <maedhros777> When factoring
21:48:25 <maedhros777> See what I mean?
21:48:34 <Ilari> You can't.
21:48:45 <maedhros777> Any ideas for the language, then?
21:49:08 <Ilari> (x + 5)(x + 3) = x^2 + 8x + 15 = (x + 3)(x + 5).
21:49:15 <maedhros777> I know
21:49:42 <maedhros777> But let's say (x + 5) reads in a value, and (x + 3) outputs a value. So which would the compiler know to do first?
21:49:51 <hiato> maedhros777, sort them? Unless you mean the order in which they were encoded, which is then impossible, unless you muliply them by ordered primes
21:50:05 <maedhros777> How would you do it by ordered primes?
21:50:29 <hiato> encode them as root 1 = ( x - 2^instr1) ( x - 3^isntr2 ) etc
21:50:37 <maedhros777> ?
21:50:56 <hiato> prime factorisation is unique
21:51:13 <maedhros777> I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
21:51:15 <Ilari> Or have the instructions cyclically repeating and execute them in increasing order.
21:51:19 <hiato> and then you know it's the one that factorises by 2 that gives you instr1
21:51:20 <hiato> eg
21:51:48 <hiato> (x + 5)(x + 3) -> (x+2^5)(x+3^3)=whatever
21:52:01 <hiato> but, once you have found the roots of whatever
21:52:06 <hiato> factorise them
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21:52:26 <hiato> and start execution with the on that is a perfect power of 2
21:52:31 <hiato> then 3,5,7...
21:52:50 <maedhros777> Wait, so are you saying that the encoding should be different?
21:52:54 <Ilari> Like if root mod n is 0 its operation A, if its 1, its operation B, etc...
21:52:56 <hiato> yes and no
21:52:56 <Sgeo> Today's not the weekend
21:53:02 <hiato> Ilari: no
21:53:12 <hiato> just add two more steps
21:53:14 <maedhros777> I still don't understand. Can you give an example?
21:53:35 <hiato> Ok, (x-3) == output, (x+5)== input
21:53:51 <maedhros777> So how do you propose to encode?
21:54:01 <hiato> to encode, you take the order it was in, say, outp then inp
21:54:13 <hiato> and assign primes, 2 and 3
21:54:18 <maedhros777> ?
21:54:31 <hiato> then, you do exponentation for the root values
21:54:54 <maedhros777> Oh...you mean (2^x - 3)(3^x + 5)?
21:55:06 <hiato> so (x+5)(x-3)-->(x+2^5)(x-3^3)
21:55:12 <hiato> then you make the polynomial
21:55:29 <maedhros777> How do you determine which bases to use for the exponentiation?
21:55:34 <hiato> then, to decode, you find the roots
21:55:41 <hiato> maedhros777: increasing primes
21:55:48 <maedhros777> Oh, I get it
21:55:52 <hiato> starting rith 2 for the first instruction
21:55:58 <maedhros777> So 2,3,5,7,11, etc ?
21:56:02 <hiato> yes
21:56:15 <maedhros777> Wow, great idea. Thanks!
21:56:19 <hiato> ;)
21:56:29 <maedhros777> I thought my whole idea was destroyed :)
21:56:33 <hiato> Naah
21:56:34 <maedhros777> But now I can do it
21:56:44 <maedhros777> I just need to write a compiler now.
21:57:01 <Ilari> Well, my idea: Assume there are 15 different instructions and you want to do 5 and then 3. Since 3 is less than 5, add 15 to get 18. Then the polynomial is (x-5)(x-18). Alternatively one could substract 15 from 5 to get (x+10)(x-3).
21:57:02 <maedhros777> Anyone know of a good method for factoring complex/imaginary zeroes?
21:57:22 <hiato> maedhros777: Newton-Rhapson for real
21:57:57 <maedhros777> Is that where p/q is the root and p is a factor of the last term and q is a factor of the first?
21:58:06 <maedhros777> That's the only one I've learned
21:58:10 <maedhros777> Kind of brute force, though
21:59:01 <Ilari> maedhros777: No, that's not it. But there are tricks to speed that method a lot.
21:59:34 <maedhros777> Oh, I looked it up -- it uses derivatives
21:59:47 <maedhros777> Still guessing, but not brute force
21:59:50 <hiato> Ilari: I see what you're saying, but it is possible that that will give anoter root, eg, say you want -1, after -2, so you get (x-2)(x-1) -> (x-2)(x-16) -> (x-2)(x-4)(x-4) ....
22:00:26 <maedhros777> Oh wait, is the Newton-Rhapson method the one from which Newton's fractal is created?
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22:01:32 <Ilari> hiato: How did you get that last step? x-16 != (x-4)^2
22:02:00 <hiato> er, (x-4)(x+4), still encodes anoter instruction
22:02:22 <maedhros777> As far as I've seen, Newton's method uses an initial guess. How would you put that in a compiler?
22:02:23 <hiato> maedhros777: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_method
22:02:24 <Ilari> Also, x - 16 != (x - 4)(x + 4) = x^2 - 16.
22:02:37 <hiato> Ilari: aaah, good point
22:02:38 <maedhros777> wow, I'm already on that exact page :)
22:03:29 <hiato> Ilari: but I'm sure that there would be ambigous factorisations of non linear roots for that notation
22:03:59 <maedhros777> Actually, I just thought of something. How would I use hiato's method with complex zeroes?
22:04:10 <maedhros777> Can a real have a complex exponent?
22:04:16 <hiato> maedhros777: why encode them?
22:04:24 <Ilari> Polynomial factorization in reals/complex is always unique modulo order of factors.
22:04:25 <maedhros777> ?
22:04:25 -!- power has changed nick to nice.
22:04:31 <maedhros777> Oh
22:04:35 <maedhros777> Silly me :)
22:04:53 <maedhros777> Does newton's method work with complex numbers?
22:05:09 <Ilari> maedhros777: Not very well...
22:05:15 <maedhros777> What does?
22:05:31 <hiato> Ilari: (x^2-16) -> (x±4) or (x^2-1) -> (X±1) ?
22:05:38 <hiato> in your encoding
22:05:42 <soupdragon> yes it will work with complex numbers
22:05:45 <soupdragon> what are you trying to do?
22:05:48 <hiato> how will you know when to subtract
22:05:52 <Ilari> Or at least what root it converges to can jump wildly.
22:06:18 <Ilari> hiato: Well -4 executes before 4 (same with -1 and 1).
22:06:20 <maedhros777> soupdragon: Find the zeroes of a function in my compiler.
22:06:29 <soupdragon> what function?
22:06:56 <maedhros777> I'm creating an esoteric language called Polynomial. The whole program is a function.
22:07:02 <maedhros777> Statements are in the zeroes.
22:07:07 <soupdragon> ,rmmmmmm
22:07:33 <hiato> Ilari: no, I'm saying, does (x²-16) give instructions ±1 or ±4? As you don't know whether 15 was added/subtracted to encode it before or after another arbitrary instruction
22:07:41 <soupdragon> you know solving quadratic equations is easy
22:07:46 <maedhros777> I know.
22:07:49 <soupdragon> hey maedhros, are the roots all on the real line/
22:07:49 <soupdragon> ?
22:07:53 <soupdragon> or are they complex too
22:07:59 <maedhros777> Both
22:08:02 <soupdragon> ummmmmmmmmm
22:08:14 <soupdragon> this is impossible to implement
22:08:15 <soupdragon> seriously
22:08:29 <maedhros777> Using hiato's method it's not.
22:08:43 <hiato> Ilari: so your way is ambigious for any partial (and thus any at all) factorisation
22:09:59 <maedhros777> soupdragon: Why would you think so?
22:10:18 <soupdragon> if the roots of a polynomial are t1,t2,..,tn then the polynomial (x-t1)(x-t2)...(x-tn) = x^n +/- (t1 + t2 + ... + tn)x^(n-1) + ... +/- (t1 t2 ... tn)
22:10:33 <maedhros777> What?
22:10:49 <soupdragon> N(t1 t2 ... tn) = N(t1) N(t2) ... N(tn) hm
22:10:56 <maedhros777> So?
22:11:21 <soupdragon> How can we put a circle around the roots of a polynomial?
22:11:29 <hiato> soupdragon: yes, but still possible if he implements it well
22:11:34 <soupdragon> like if all the roots |ti| < 5
22:11:40 <soupdragon> how can we find a bound like 5?
22:12:14 <hiato> soupdragon: so far as I understand, that will be solved by virtue of the roots only encoding a finite set of instructions
22:12:24 <soupdragon> are the roots gaussian integers?
22:12:35 <hiato> I wouldn't know
22:12:38 <soupdragon> or are they wild trancendentals
22:12:42 <maedhros777> Yep
22:12:52 <soupdragon> .......which
22:12:59 <hiato> Ok, well there you have it
22:13:00 <maedhros777> The whole language is in integers
22:13:08 <soupdragon> if it is integers this makes the problem much easier
22:13:14 <maedhros777> Yep
22:13:22 <soupdragon> you could try things like rational roots I guess
22:13:27 <soupdragon> and irreducibility testing
22:13:28 -!- nice has left (?).
22:13:32 <soupdragon> and finite field factorization
22:13:47 <maedhros777> I don't know what half that stuff is :)
22:14:09 <hiato> soupdragon, heh, naah, we manually encode the polynomials, so no need to check for anything
22:14:14 <soupdragon> for a really crude first approach you could probably just grab SWI prolog and write (x-t1)*...*(x-tn) #= input and it'll solve for t1,t2...
22:14:24 <soupdragon> "manually encode" like how?
22:14:39 <soupdragon> they arent' written in the form 6x^4 - 7x^3 + ..?
22:14:44 <maedhros777> Increasing primes
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22:15:07 <maedhros777> e.g. (x + 3)(x + 5) -> (x + 2^3)(x + 3^5)
22:15:24 <maedhros777> hiato's idea
22:15:49 <hiato> soupdragon, it let's you unambigiously determine the order of encoding
22:15:51 <soupdragon> ............ what
22:16:08 <soupdragon> what is an example input to the program?
22:16:10 <maedhros777> Bye now
22:16:13 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:16:19 <hiato> The idea was that you take some set of integers and encode them as roots of a olynomial
22:16:22 <hiato> *p
22:16:47 <hiato> that set being the instructions, of whatever meaning
22:17:03 <soupdragon> what the fuck why did he leave
22:17:13 <hiato> oh, lol
22:17:19 <hiato> foreigners
22:17:26 <soupdragon> man that guy has no idea what he is doing
22:17:29 <hiato> nope
22:17:39 <soupdragon> I also have no idea what he is doing
22:17:43 <hiato> lol
22:17:43 <soupdragon> which is frustrating
22:17:50 <hiato> I have a vague one
22:17:52 <soupdragon> seemed to describe about 20 different situations
22:17:57 <hiato> heh
22:18:34 <hiato> but, I think I know what he was trying, and I think I gave him a solution thatworks, but I doubt he can use it
22:19:10 <hiato> 22:54 < maedhros777> I just need to write a compiler now.
22:19:18 <hiato> and that he will
22:19:24 <hiato> for polynomials
22:21:06 * Sgeo wonders if it would be possible to get Dwarf Fortress to work on Android
22:22:01 * soupdragon thinks playing dwarf fortress is harder than being NASA mission control
22:22:33 * hiato would name his children Sgeo if he found a way
22:30:21 * Sgeo sends a message to his professor saying that, while my script wasn't perfect, it's far better than the professor's answer.
22:34:12 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/u582h
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22:51:48 <hiato> vabot die
22:52:00 <hiato> wrong chan :P
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23:10:19 <gm|lap> rawr.
23:10:50 <pikhq> My Internet connection hates rain.
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23:12:27 * Sgeo hates people with crappy Internet connections.
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23:12:54 <maedhros777> Hello again
23:13:27 <maedhros777> Oh yeah, sorry for leaving without answering your question, soupdragon
23:14:03 <soupdragon> I've (partially) recovered
23:14:14 <maedhros777> An example program would be zeroes of 72 and i
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23:14:52 <soupdragon> so the input would be x^2 - (72+i)x + 72i = 0?
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23:15:16 <maedhros777> Hang on, let me consider
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23:16:14 <maedhros777> No, it would be x^3 - 72x^2 - x + 72
23:16:26 <maedhros777> Complex conjugates aren't executed
23:16:35 <maedhros777> Well, one of them is executes
23:16:42 <maedhros777> Oops, I meant executed :)
23:16:48 <soupdragon> Well I am confused
23:16:55 <maedhros777> It's (x - 72)(x - i)(x + i)
23:17:03 <soupdragon> I don't see it that way
23:17:05 <maedhros777> = (x - 72)(x^2 - 1)
23:17:07 <maedhros777> ?
23:17:28 <soupdragon> 1 and -1 are the zeros of x^2 - 1
23:17:37 <soupdragon> i and -i are the zeros of x^2 + 1
23:17:40 <maedhros777> Oh, oops :)
23:17:44 <maedhros777> You're right
23:18:03 <soupdragon> but why is it a cubic? I mean that has 3 roots
23:18:07 <pikhq> This darned thing seems to be obsessed with dropping connection.
23:18:16 <maedhros777> 72, i and -i
23:18:37 <pikhq> And I am having absurd difficulty getting a single freaking webpage to load. :(
23:18:59 <maedhros777> Complex zeroes of the form a + bi are only considered by the absolute value of b
23:19:10 <maedhros777> And a, but that's unrelated
23:19:28 <maedhros777> Well, negative a is different from a
23:19:29 <soupdragon> okay
23:19:32 <maedhros777> But -b = b
23:19:34 <maedhros777> Yep
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23:19:50 <maedhros777> I have to go now, sorry to leave you devastated :)
23:20:02 * soupdragon is lost but it's okay
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23:52:53 <soupdragon> quantum computers can do linear search in O(sqrt(n))
23:52:54 <soupdragon> ?
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23:59:03 <maedhros777> Hello, I'm back
23:59:30 <soupdragon> hi...... back ......... :D
23:59:35 <maedhros777> I've just been wondering -- are there any esoteric or real programming languages in another language (besides English)?
23:59:45 <maedhros777> Strange thought
23:59:55 <maedhros777> A programming language in another language :)
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