←2010-06-28 2010-06-29 2010-06-30→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:41 <cpressey> Python can't seem to fork under Cygwin anymore. Yay.
00:03:02 <olsner> use windows' python under cygwin :)
00:03:37 <cpressey> I would except for the eggs.
00:03:54 <cpressey> Man, there is a dimension along which Python is such a *joke*.
00:05:31 <pikhq> cpressey: You realise where the name comes from, right?
00:06:39 <cpressey> pikhq: The difference is, they were funny.
00:06:45 <Gregor-W> X-D
00:07:26 <pikhq> cpressey: The eggs thing has the same source.
00:07:29 <Sgeo_> Is it sinful to represent 1s and 0s in a way such that 1s don't need to be maintained by a constant pulse?
00:07:52 <pikhq> The spam spam spam spam ham eggs and spam doesn't have too much spam in it, you see.
00:10:54 <oerjan> Sgeo_: no. i would like to see the religion that even mentioned it.
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00:11:53 <cpressey> Ye pulse of ye liffe of ye ones
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00:12:58 <cpressey> Yay I fixed it by doing '/bin/rebaseall' from a hand-started-from-command-prompt ash shell
00:13:47 <cpressey> Need to be off though.
00:14:11 <cpressey> (circle-finger-thumb salute) Be seeing you.
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00:20:48 <GreaseMonkey> lua-5.1: l51_npol.tmp: unexpected end in precompiled chunk
00:20:53 <GreaseMonkey> IT'S WRITING STUFF
00:22:46 <cheater99> is alise in the can today again
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00:30:03 <GreaseMonkey> IT COMPILES AND RUNS \o/
00:30:03 <myndzi> |
00:30:03 <myndzi> /<
00:30:08 <GreaseMonkey> now to actually make it do something
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00:30:50 <ehirdiphone> Night.
00:31:07 <Gregor-W> GreaseMonkey: If it compiles and runs, that means it works.
00:31:21 <Gregor-W> :P
00:31:28 <Gregor-W> ehirdiphone: Thank you for joining just to say that ...
00:31:35 <GreaseMonkey> Gregor-W: you forgot "and if it doesn't crash"
00:31:40 <GreaseMonkey> which is true, it doesn't crash.
00:31:47 <oerjan> no no, he's not joining just to say that, he's actually living backwards now
00:31:56 <ehirdiphone> Gregor-W: I promised to be back soon.
00:31:59 <oerjan> freak time machine accident
00:32:10 <Sgeo_> Night ehirdiphone
00:32:22 <ehirdiphone> .deednI :najreo
00:32:38 <ehirdiphone> GreaseMonkey: Crashing != running
00:32:40 <ehirdiphone> Bye.
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00:32:56 <Sgeo_> hm, ehirdiphone is c'laeT?
00:33:01 <GreaseMonkey> hmmkay
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00:48:59 <ipatrol> I'm working on an idea called OS complete
00:49:49 <ipatrol> That is to say a program that can emulate any turing machine running on a given OS
00:50:31 <ipatrol> So filesystem, sockets, shell calls, and pipes
00:52:24 <ipatrol> In the process I created a 2D version of brainfuck that containes several rows, traversable with ^ and _
00:53:27 <oklopol> so is cygwin linux hard
00:53:50 <ipatrol> Also a typing system consisting of Bool, Int, Char, and Base256 (string)
00:53:52 <GreaseMonkey> and this is the part where i basically give up because it looks like i'll need to spend lots of that thing called TIME on it.
00:54:20 <oklopol> GreaseMonkey: yes this 2d bf does sound a bit too complicated
00:54:51 <oklopol> ipatrol: how do nesting and direction change interplay
00:55:00 <GreaseMonkey> the idea is that you have a 2D array of routines or something like that
00:55:02 <ipatrol> It's simple: bf has one array, 2D has more
00:55:11 <GreaseMonkey> one dimension for one program, another for the other
00:55:16 <GreaseMonkey> and basically every entry has
00:55:23 <ipatrol> oklopol: ^ goes up an array, _ goes down
00:55:32 <ipatrol> Using an array pointer
00:55:35 <GreaseMonkey> pre_exec prog_a_op prog_b_op post_exec
00:55:37 <ipatrol> so think of
00:56:04 <ipatrol> [[0],[0,5,8],[5,7,0]]
00:56:22 <ipatrol> A two dimensional array
00:56:47 <oklopol> oh wait
00:56:51 <oklopol> you mean the memory is 2d
00:57:07 <GreaseMonkey> i'll probably need to use coroutines for this...
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00:57:23 <GreaseMonkey> ...which is something Lua gives
00:57:28 <ipatrol> int bfarray[size][size] = {{0}}
00:57:29 <GreaseMonkey> while i'm trying to make it in python
00:57:43 <ipatrol> Yes, I'm using pythom
00:57:45 <oklopol> ipatrol: that doesn't answer my question
00:57:46 <ipatrol> n
00:58:01 <ipatrol> oklopol: Yes, the memory is two-D
00:58:03 <oklopol> okay
00:58:25 <oerjan> ipatrol: i detect a haskellite, you know String = [Char] and Char is not 256 values, right?
00:58:36 <oklopol> using python
00:58:42 <ipatrol> I said base256
00:58:46 <oklopol> tho
00:58:50 <ipatrol> Use baseconv on pypi
00:59:12 <oerjan> oh it's the same type names in python?
00:59:24 <ipatrol> roughly
00:59:50 <oklopol> python doesn't have chars
00:59:54 <ipatrol> -1 = None, 0 = False, above that is True
00:59:58 <oklopol> and the names are lowercase
01:00:05 <ipatrol> oklopol: chr(value)
01:00:08 <pikhq> And its typesystem is all runtime.
01:00:14 <oklopol> that's a string
01:00:22 <oklopol> pikhq: yeah but talking about names
01:00:27 <GreaseMonkey> plan C: let's go back to Lua!
01:00:39 <ipatrol> pikhq: No, Python is the interpreter's langiage
01:00:49 <oklopol> what
01:00:55 <oklopol> ipatrol: you say the weirdest things :P
01:01:08 <oerjan> oh python _is_ lowercase?
01:01:18 <GreaseMonkey> True.
01:01:26 <oklopol> oerjan: what?
01:01:27 <ipatrol> Python is both
01:01:38 <oklopol> what does it mean for a language to be lowercase
01:01:47 <oerjan> ipatrol: your type names confused me because Bool, Int and Char are haskell types, including the capitalization
01:02:00 <oerjan> oklopol: *python's type names are
01:02:22 <oklopol> okay i couldn't have deduced you meant that
01:02:34 <ipatrol> oerjan: I use classes to emulate that
01:02:53 <oerjan> and Base256 could easily be one, but String is based on Char which is not base 256
01:03:11 <oklopol> ipatrol: couldn't you let python emulate them with its own types?
01:03:16 <oerjan> (there is Bytestring though)
01:03:28 <oerjan> er maybe ByteString
01:03:36 <ipatrol> oerjan: You can call them Fuck Damn and Hell for all I care!
01:03:41 <oklopol> i prefer python's way of not having characters at all, just strings
01:03:47 <oklopol> that's how math does it
01:03:49 <oklopol> too
01:03:55 <oerjan> ipatrol: i just thought you were using haskell, is all
01:04:04 <oklopol> or well, at least occasionally
01:04:10 <ipatrol> oklopol: char is len(str) == 1
01:04:22 <ipatrol> oerjan: WTF's haskell?
01:04:36 <oklopol> if you have an element of the alphabet then it's a symbol, but with regexps you tend to do what python does
01:04:42 <oerjan> ipatrol: a programming language that is quite popular in this channel
01:04:43 <oklopol> ipatrol: lol you definitely say the weirdest things
01:04:49 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/
01:04:57 <oklopol> ipatrol: no
01:05:00 <ipatrol> Better if I show you
01:05:20 <ipatrol> You'll understand then
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01:05:25 <oklopol> well you can think like that, but it doesn't really make sense that if you have a set of strings, some of them just happen to be chars instead when the length is 1
01:05:26 <oerjan> ipatrol: very unusual in many ways
01:05:35 <oklopol> IMO
01:05:39 <oklopol> i mean just IMO
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01:06:24 * oerjan now expects oklopol to say "_I_ would have banned him already" ;D
01:07:53 <oklopol> :-=)
01:08:22 <oklopol> i don't get what he meant he was showing
01:09:29 <oklopol> i mean i understand the quit but i don't understand the showing
01:09:30 <oerjan> i hope he didn't think we have anything against python. it may very well be even more popular than haskell here
01:09:45 <oklopol> python!"
01:09:50 <oklopol> *-"
01:12:42 <oerjan> wait math has just strings no characters? i'm not sure that's accurate.
01:13:21 <oklopol> it's not
01:13:22 <oerjan> i'd rather say math has rampant implicit type casts, which work from a set to its free monoid among other things
01:13:26 <oklopol> yes
01:13:33 <oklopol> that's what i meant
01:13:42 <oklopol> i did elaborate on this a bit
01:13:56 <oerjan> oh
01:14:00 <oklopol> not nearly as clearly as you
01:14:11 * oerjan should learn to read to the bottom before responding. nah.
01:15:00 <oklopol> sometimes there definitely are symbols, but i mean say in combinatorics on words, i just can't imagine how it could ever be useful
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01:15:58 <oklopol> anything you can do with symbols makes sense with words, one-letter strings just have a few important properties, some of which are shared by for instance unbordered words
01:16:19 <oklopol> well w/e i'm sure we're in an understanding, i'm not sure who i'm talking to
01:16:36 <GreaseMonkey> wow immibis's bfjoust programs are REALLY big when you unpack them
01:16:36 <oklopol> i should consider going to work maybe
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01:16:47 <oklopol> immibis is alive?
01:16:49 <oerjan> oklopol: hm like if you have a prefix-free set of words, you can easily pretend _they_ are symbols instead
01:16:51 <oklopol> where does he flood nowadays?
01:17:05 <GreaseMonkey> is there a bfjoust program with the {} things in them?
01:17:24 <oerjan> or suffix-free
01:18:44 <oklopol> yes, at least it would make *sense*, i'm trying to find some sort of example
01:20:47 <oklopol> but mostly i just meant that you say things like u=aw where |a|=1, instead of ever using a variable of type symbol
01:21:07 <oklopol> also i misparsed "variable of type symbol" a second after writing it
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01:22:21 <oklopol> also many times i think i've seen a case of something being proven for binary, and then a trivial reduction from the general case with the morphism a_n --> 0^n 1, so in that case i guess it would be clear that a prefix set will behave like its unique inverse image
01:22:22 <oerjan> well sometimes you use capital letters for words that aren't symbols, i think
01:22:29 <oklopol> not in cow
01:22:32 <oklopol> well
01:22:40 <oklopol> at least in the small amount of literature i've read
01:22:42 <oerjan> like metasyntactic variables, really
01:22:48 <oerjan> cow?
01:22:56 <oklopol> capitals are for languages
01:23:02 <oklopol> combinatorics o[nf] words
01:23:26 <oerjan> hm i may be thinking of logic
01:23:34 <oerjan> which also uses words
01:23:56 <oklopol> i don't know anything about logic
01:24:09 <oklopol> i wish i did, apparently tiles are important in logic
01:24:35 <oklopol> whether a tilesets admits a periodic tiling is the same as whether there's a finite model for some type of logic afaiu
01:24:38 <oklopol> well
01:24:50 <oklopol> afair, i don't know what logic, and what kind of correspondence
01:24:57 * oerjan hasn't seen any logic with tiles
01:24:59 <oklopol> but that's where the problem comes from, wang was a logician
01:25:11 <oklopol> yeah there's no logic to them
01:25:18 <oerjan> oh that's sort of a mutual reduction thing then probably, like with NP-complete problems
01:26:30 <oklopol> well, maybe.
01:26:49 <oerjan> food ->
01:26:49 <GreaseMonkey> Compiling program 1 (19417 bytes) - wow, doesn't actually compile yet but oh boy this is slow.
01:27:10 <oklopol> i'm planning on reading about this, maybe i can tell you then
01:27:24 <oklopol> although i do have tons of other stuff to read first
01:28:03 <GreaseMonkey> much faster when i use file i/o
01:28:49 <GreaseMonkey> takes a while to load though
01:29:03 <GreaseMonkey> but it's not that bad actually
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01:58:58 <GreaseMonkey> argh crap i'
01:59:06 <GreaseMonkey> m not getting the same results for both ways
01:59:59 <GreaseMonkey> !bfjoust simple >[-]+[->[-]+]
02:00:09 <EgoBot> Score for GreaseMonkey_simple: 3.5
02:01:29 <GreaseMonkey> !bfjoust simple (>)*15[-]+[->[-]+]
02:01:36 <EgoBot> Score for GreaseMonkey_simple: 1.7
02:01:53 <GreaseMonkey> !bfjoust simple (>)*10[-]+[->[-]+]
02:02:01 <EgoBot> Score for GreaseMonkey_simple: 3.5
02:05:24 <oklopol> !bfjoust simple (>)*10[-]+[->[-]+]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
02:05:32 <EgoBot> Score for oklopol_simple: 3.5
02:05:35 <Sgeo_> A friend of mine is saying his MSN account was frozen by a bot.
02:05:39 <oklopol> !bfjoust simple (>)*10[-]+[->[-]+++++]
02:05:47 <EgoBot> Score for oklopol_simple: 3.8
02:05:51 <oklopol> !bfjoust simple (>)*25[-]+[->[-]+++++]
02:05:52 <Sgeo_> A google search suggests that, if it weren't for that, and I was looking for information, it's made-up BS
02:05:58 <EgoBot> Score for oklopol_simple: 0.0
02:06:02 <oklopol> !bfjoust simple (>)*8[-]+[->[-]+++++]
02:06:10 <EgoBot> Score for oklopol_simple: 4.9
02:06:16 <oklopol> !bfjoust simple (>)*3[-]+[->[-]+++++](>)*50
02:06:17 <Sgeo_> "Get MSN Freezer bots here!" "Send me money, and I'll freeze someone's account!"
02:06:23 <oklopol> damn i'm good at this game!
02:06:25 <EgoBot> Score for oklopol_simple: 5.2
02:06:35 <Sgeo_> So, anyone know how they work, and how to reverse it?
02:06:41 <oklopol> !bfjoust simple [->]+[->[-]+++++](>)*50
02:06:49 <EgoBot> Score for oklopol_simple: 5.8
02:06:58 <oklopol> !bfjoust simple [->][->]+[->[-]+++++](>)*50
02:07:08 <EgoBot> Score for oklopol_simple: 7.5
02:07:11 <oklopol> :D
02:07:27 <oklopol> !bfjoust simple [->][->][<-][<-]
02:07:36 <EgoBot> Score for oklopol_simple: 4.1
02:07:38 <Sgeo_> "They work actually, it works by signing into their account multiple times (or attempting to) with random passwords so eventually their login won't work (freezes)."
02:07:46 <oklopol> so what was this game again
02:12:24 <coppro> how does bfjoust work again?
02:17:32 <oerjan> coppro: look at the wiki
02:17:47 <coppro> lazy
02:18:05 <oerjan> oh. SO AM I.
02:18:43 <Sgeo_> WTF
02:18:52 <Sgeo_> Facebook said there was unusual activity on my account
02:19:38 <oerjan> i guess this is a good time for us that have neither MSN nor facebook accounts, then.
02:19:54 <pikhq> ^5 oerjan
02:19:54 <oerjan> </gloat>
02:21:35 <oerjan> \||||
02:26:08 <Sgeo_> You know what it might be? It might have been Meeb.. no, it wouldn't be Meebo
02:42:57 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_British_Coinage_2008.jpg Oh my goodness those are awesome coin designs.
02:47:25 <Gregor> Yeah, but they'll look stupid when they're not arranged like that ;)
02:48:21 <pikhq> Clearly British people should keep their coins mounted.
02:48:25 <pikhq> *CLEARLY*.
02:58:03 <Sgeo_> No, Google calendar, you're not going to find Second Life on any map
02:59:58 <Gregor> Thank GOD
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03:10:01 <Sgeo_> I'm in a club for a rezday party.
03:10:12 <Sgeo_> The lag is horrendous
03:10:16 <Sgeo_> I need a new computer
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03:27:33 <Ilari> Heh... TC games like enigma allow maps that are solvable by construction and one can fairly easily show that they are possible from level script, but are still practically impossible to solve, even with access to level script...
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03:30:01 <Ilari> That is, map that can be shown to be solvable with solution of practical length, but still is practically impossible.
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03:32:01 <Ilari> And the level would be completely deterministic, with nothing random.
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04:07:06 <Sgeo_> All of a sudden, I'm making out with rezday girl. "I didn't touch a thing" "Yeah right lol"
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04:46:52 <Sgeo_> o.O
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04:47:44 <Sgeo_> Ever since, as a kid, I saw that forms could be submitted to emails, until just about now, I thought that submitting forms to email were magical. Easy way to take care of data without needing to write server code. Didn't realize that an email client would have to open.
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06:09:10 <coppro> what's the unix number generating utility again?
06:09:34 <coppro> ah, right, seq
06:10:31 <coppro> <3 wget + seq
06:12:56 <Sgeo_> Downloading porn?
06:13:32 <coppro> speedruns
06:13:48 * pikhq prefers using zsh
06:13:59 <pikhq> Much nicer syntax for sequences.
06:16:00 <Sgeo_> speedruns of what?
06:16:19 <Sgeo_> Porn? </disturbing?
06:16:21 <Sgeo_> >
06:16:38 <coppro> games
06:17:37 <Sgeo_> What games?
06:17:41 <Sgeo_> >.>
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06:35:55 <augur> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/cjuxf/scientist_in_a_sense_im_a_born_killer/c0t3n1n how many comment karma points do you think i'll get for this
06:44:01 <bsmntbombdood> none
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06:44:45 <augur> :(
06:44:47 <augur> i hate you
06:44:52 <augur> I HATE YOU SO MUCH
06:44:55 * augur runs away crying
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07:01:11 <Ilari> After watching lots of tool-assisted speedruns, ordinary non-TAS speedruns seem sloppy. :-)
07:01:36 <coppro> I like that
07:01:50 <coppro> TASes are silly
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07:23:56 <bsmntbombdood> coppro: lrn2curl
07:35:16 <coppro> bsmntbombdood: why would I bother?
07:35:22 <coppro> waste of time
07:35:36 <bsmntbombdood> because you want to use the right tool for the job?
07:40:37 <coppro> because wget isn't?
07:41:57 <bsmntbombdood> not if you're using seq
07:42:12 <bsmntbombdood> curl foo.com/[0-15]
07:42:33 <bsmntbombdood> or, for i in `seq 0 15`; do wget foo.com/$i; done?
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07:46:17 <fizzie> You need to remember a messy "-o '#1'" in the curl command to get that stuff into separate files; the wget version writes to files by default.
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07:46:54 <fizzie> (I guess it's still simpler, but anyhow.)
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08:05:59 <coppro> bsmntbombdood: per Unix philosophy, the latter is correct
08:09:15 <fizzie> I'd have written it as "seq 0 15 | xargs -i wget foo.com/{}" just to get one more process in the mix. (Perhaps one could add a couple of cats in the middle of the pipe too.)
08:09:58 <fizzie> Pipelines: it's what's for dinner.
08:18:35 <Deewiant> Don't you know that -i is deprecated?
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08:24:39 <Sgeo_> 2n1s
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08:26:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, you're meant to do -I with a specified string. I did not know that.
08:26:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: [2010-06-28 14:30:09] Tweeted: About NetHack: of it in tins... "need we wait until morning then?" "how perceptive of you to notice a mimic in an antique shop." (fungot)
08:26:20 <fungot> fizzie: that's because you're a wannabe windows user scum with jelly for brains."
08:26:28 <fizzie> How polite that bot is.
08:26:38 <Deewiant> :-D
08:26:50 <Deewiant> ^style
08:26:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
08:26:53 <fizzie> fungot: I suppose you have all the xargs options memorized then, huh?
08:26:53 <fungot> fizzie: maybe that explains my problems... i hope
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08:35:57 <Sgeo_> Wannabe Windows user?
08:36:45 <Sgeo_> Who'd want to use Windows?
08:36:59 <fizzie> Sgeo_: Someone with jelly for brains, perhaps?
08:37:11 * oerjan oozes towards fizzie
08:46:10 <fizzie> oerjan is in reality a gelatinous cube?
08:46:49 <oerjan> well up to a constant multiple (of viscosity) anyway
08:47:12 <oerjan> = O(gelatinous cube)
08:47:32 <fizzie> But with a shape of a 10-foot cube anyhow?
08:47:51 <oerjan> _maybe_ a tiny bit of O() there too
08:48:54 <fizzie> There's that classical "assume a spherical cow" joke.
08:49:17 <olsner> I think a cylinder would be a better approximation
08:49:59 <oerjan> i think i may still have some years left until sphericality
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10:52:54 <Deewiant> http://www.kongregate.com/games/richthepanda/scent-trail-bot
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11:03:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: Programming games are the nicest of them all.
11:06:38 <Deewiant> This one was nice at any rate
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14:08:15 <oklopol> <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
14:08:16 <oklopol> <fizzie> fungot: I suppose you have all the xargs options memorized then, huh?
14:08:16 <oklopol> <fungot> fizzie: maybe that explains my problems... i hope
14:08:16 <fungot> oklopol: advice for jonphilpott stops messaging, call 911. and it's good for scientists and 3 year olds?
14:08:17 <fungot> oklopol: hmm i need signed fractions... okie, let me grab the source from the files or the html to run them all
14:08:17 <fungot> oklopol: if that helps, please ask if you could
14:08:17 <oklopol> :D
14:09:10 <fizzie> fungot: Is everything okay? You're being strangely coherent today.
14:09:11 <fungot> fizzie: yup ill read it over reading week.
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14:54:23 <ais523> yay fungot
14:54:24 <fungot> ais523: stuff like that
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15:32:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, funny thing when cross compiling: compiling newlib fails in configure with gcc not being able to create executables. Looking at config.log it fails due to not finding -lc
15:32:44 <AnMaster> well, that was after I manually compiled crt0.o (provided by libc normally)
15:33:03 <AnMaster> the issue seems to be newlib doesn't realise it is cross compiling. Somehow
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15:50:50 <oklopol> scentbot is a bit tedious
15:55:18 <Deewiant> How's that
15:56:30 <fizzie> It felt a bit too clicky to me, but didn't really try it out much.
15:57:09 <Deewiant> You can type the whole thing if you press esc
15:57:29 <Deewiant> It probably won't like syntax errors much though
15:57:38 <Deewiant> I only used it to move stuff around and copy-paste
15:58:41 <oklopol> oh okay
15:58:57 <oklopol> it didn't say "press esc", it said "press these buttons here"
15:59:08 <Deewiant> It's meant for saving/loading solutions
15:59:13 <oklopol> okay
15:59:16 <Deewiant> It says it on the left in the level selection screen
15:59:16 <fizzie> It does mention esc somewhere, I saw it there.
15:59:39 <oklopol> i refuse to believe you, but okay i believe it might be fun in that case
15:59:39 <fizzie> Ah, there.
15:59:47 <Deewiant> But like said, I found it convenient for not just saving/loading
15:59:48 <oklopol> except the bot is really slow
15:59:59 <Deewiant> Yeah, that's a bit annoying
16:00:21 <Deewiant> Sometimes, it's too fast when I want to see the exact sequence of what happened ;-)
16:00:23 <oklopol> did you complete the game
16:00:28 <Deewiant> Yeah, I did them all
16:00:37 <oklopol> anything interesting?
16:00:44 <oklopol> i guess because you linked
16:00:50 <fizzie> What's that one button there do, the one near the start/stop one?
16:00:50 <Deewiant> I found it fun enough
16:01:11 <Deewiant> It says in the manual... I think it was about toggling some transparency thing
16:01:32 <fizzie> Ah, right. Transparencies were indeed mentioned.
16:02:58 <oklopol> transparency is just a fancy word for see-through
16:03:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:08:14 <fizzie> See-through is just a fancy name that they'll probably invent after see-sharp has gone stale.
16:08:31 <Phantom_Hoover> What's wrong with C#?
16:08:43 <Deewiant> It's going stale
16:08:56 <fizzie> You'd better eat it fast.
16:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Why's it going stale?
16:11:19 <fizzie> Everything does, sooner or later. The seriousness level is not terribly high at the moment, I was just responding to oklopol's comment.
16:12:23 <fizzie> The delegates (esp. how you can combine them with +/+= and how they keep those invocation lists inside them) feel a bit awkwardly hacky to me (but maybe that's just me), if you want one less frivolous thing.
16:18:36 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I'm going to try to switch to x64 again.
16:44:31 <pikhq> Donald Knuth is making an "earthshaking" announcement today.
16:45:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, what is it?
16:45:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, any clues as to its nature?
16:45:45 <cpressey> Edsger Dijkstra is actually still alive, and in hiding. In Jamaica.
16:45:54 <pikhq> It's Knuth. And at a TeX conference.
16:46:22 <Phantom_Hoover> TeX has never worked all along?
16:46:35 <pikhq> TAoCP finished?
16:47:02 <Phantom_Hoover> What?
16:47:12 <Phantom_Hoover> First the Forth Bridge, now this?
16:47:33 <Phantom_Hoover> What will we use when we need to make an analogy for a task that will never end?
16:48:26 <pikhq> Duke Nukem Forever.
16:49:02 <Deewiant> It ended
16:50:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly the end times are nigh.
16:51:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, GNU HURD.
16:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> If it finishes, we're all doomed.
16:54:12 <pikhq> They've released.
16:54:17 <pikhq> Last in '98, but still.
16:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought it was totally unusable for practical purposes?
16:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> s/?/./
16:55:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I *really* need to stop doing that.
16:57:26 <pikhq> *Effectively* useless.
16:57:32 <pikhq> It does in fact *run*.
16:57:51 <Phantom_Hoover> What makes it useless, by the way?
16:58:02 <pikhq> It's slow and buggy.
17:15:35 <Deewiant> And probably has phenomenal driver support
17:16:58 <pikhq> It's got the Linux 2.2 driver stack.
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17:35:37 <fizzie> Also the famous 1 gigabyte partition size limit (I'm not sure if it's still alive, but it was there not long ago).
17:49:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Firefox has just frozen for no reason, and is devouring memory.
18:01:12 <Deewiant> 3.6.6?
18:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I think so.
18:02:27 <Phantom_Hoover> No, 3.6.3.
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18:07:48 <Deewiant> Flash?
18:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Not at the time, as far as I know.
18:08:13 <Deewiant> But it /could/ have been ;-P
18:09:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot discount the possibility that Flash is conspiring against me, no.
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20:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I am having annoying misgivings about switching to 64-bit.
20:17:44 <AnMaster> <oklopol> scentbot is a bit tedious <-- what is scentbot? google proved unhelpful
20:26:03 <fizzie> The log would be more helpful.
20:26:37 <fizzie> <Deewiant> http://www.kongregate.com/games/richthepanda/scent-trail-bot
20:26:49 <fizzie> That is "scentbot".
20:27:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I think http://codu.org/projects/trac/microcosm/wiki should answer all questions now? ;P
20:28:42 <AnMaster> or at least several
20:32:04 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: thanks.
20:32:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Thanks, AnMaster. ThanMaster.
20:32:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I had to do that; sorry.
20:32:38 <AnMaster> it isn't even very funny...
20:33:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I know. It's a reference to Look Around You.
20:33:18 <AnMaster> never heard of that
20:33:32 <AnMaster> and for anyone wanting serious confusion: http://codu.org/projects/trac/microcosm/wiki/modules
20:33:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a BBC comedy that spoofed 70s-era educational programmes.
20:33:53 <AnMaster> I see
20:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the running gags is to have someone say "Thanks, <x>. Th<x>."
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20:42:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why would that ever be fun
20:42:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It isn't.
20:42:39 <Ilari> One I would like to see spoof of (changing things in it to reflect reality would do) is one darn food propaganda video that they showed in elementary school...
20:43:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ah.. that type of joke
20:43:29 <AnMaster> Ilari, food propaganda?
20:43:39 <Ilari> AnMaster: "Healthy" food propaganda.
20:44:09 <AnMaster> Ilari, well, what is considered healthy changes from one day to the next
20:44:14 <AnMaster> *shrug*
20:46:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Installing Ubuntu over itself is harder than I thought...
20:47:19 <Ilari> There is single objective reality (but also, person-to-person variance). There's scientific approximation of that (the best currently known). Then there's what's reported/taught, which has been completely distorted (and prone to flip-flopping).
20:47:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:47:40 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
20:48:00 <oerjan> no, i'm his evil twin brother.
20:48:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Who is also called "Ørjan"?
20:49:10 <oerjan> no i stole his nick, stupid!
20:49:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
20:49:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are you evil?
20:49:52 <Ilari> AnMaster: The appearence of flip-flopping is mostly due to reporting...
20:50:11 <AnMaster> Ilari, hm probably
20:50:23 <oerjan> to preserve the fundamental balance of the universe, of course. before i destroy it, that is.
20:50:52 <Phantom_Hoover> But oerjan wasn't *that* good.
20:50:53 * AnMaster waits for the manic laugh
20:50:57 <oerjan> no contradiction really, nothing is also quite balanced
20:51:07 <Phantom_Hoover> His complement would just be a bit nasty.
20:51:34 <cpressey> AnMaster: re http://codu.org/projects/trac/microcosm/wiki : I always love when the word "any" is in scare quotes.
20:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, unless he's been building schools in the third world and hasn't told anyone
20:51:41 <oerjan> i am sure oerjan will be happy to hear that.
20:51:50 <Ilari> AnMaster: Then major landmark studies are not reported because results are not "correct" (nevermind that results depict reality). And extremely bad studies are reported simply because results are "correct".
20:52:34 <cpressey> For "all" x, there "exists" y, such that y is "greater than" x.
20:52:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, okay then, can you tell the real oerjan that I want him to read https://codu.org/projects/trac/microcosm/wiki/modules . You however must not look at it. It is secret information for you
20:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: why would his evil twin want to destroy the world?
20:52:52 <AnMaster> <hehehe>
20:52:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ah but you are ignoring the fact that destruction is so much _easier_ than protection, thus balance means evil is stronger. for example, have you ever heard of a defence against a nuclear bomb?
20:53:08 <AnMaster> cpressey, hm tell Gregor that :P
20:53:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Not being anywhere near one?
20:53:25 <Ilari> Nuclear bomb or nuclear-tipped missile? :-)
20:53:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Having a load of stuff between you and it?
20:53:41 <oerjan> well we evil people are _quite_ satisfied with people fleeing, usually.
20:53:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes I have. being somewhere else sufficiently far away is a good defence
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20:54:14 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: I already said that.
20:54:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, only noticed afterwards
20:54:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, was logreading at the same time
20:54:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: not when i've taken over the whole world! *MWAHAHAHAHA* </fan service>
20:54:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, :P
20:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, if destruction is easier than protection, surely oerjan's evil twin would be less evil than oerjan is good?
20:55:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't you mean http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanDisservice ?
20:55:38 <cpressey> And lo, it turns out "fan service" has a wikipedia entry.
20:55:52 <AnMaster> cpressey, there is tv tropes always
20:56:00 <AnMaster> cpressey, but you don't want to click on that unless you are oerjan
20:56:06 <AnMaster> or his evil twin
20:56:12 <cpressey> My IRC client blocks links to tvtropes.org.
20:56:17 <AnMaster> cpressey, :D
20:56:33 <AnMaster> cpressey, does it block the whole line? or just the url?
20:57:07 <AnMaster> cpressey, and does it leave any marker? like <url removed> or such?
20:57:08 <cpressey> Just the URL. It replaces it with a frowny-face.
20:57:22 <AnMaster> cpressey, heh
20:57:56 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey: all links, or just those to vaguely risqué pages?
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20:58:23 <Ilari> Heh... Just thought that: "fantasy has to be believable, reality is not bound by such constraints."... :-)
20:58:25 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: All links.
20:58:26 <Phantom_Hoover> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun
20:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Very odd...
21:00:32 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no no, i'm exactly as evil as oerjan is good (up to rounding errors), which is why you are screwed. *MWAHAHAHACKACK CACK CACK* damn cigarettes
21:00:54 <Phantom_Hoover> So oerjan is basically a saint?
21:01:23 <oerjan> you don't seem to be getting the point that destruction is easier than protection, here...
21:01:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, so the real oerjan doesn't smoke?
21:01:33 <AnMaster> good for him
21:01:37 <Ilari> Smoking and sugar are bad for you... :->
21:01:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: your logic is impeccable. it will not save you though.
21:02:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, where is the real oerjan?
21:02:28 <oerjan> tied up in the closet.
21:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: what is your plan for world domination?
21:02:43 <oerjan> secret.
21:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: classic mistake #1. If you steal someone's identity, *kill* them.
21:03:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, don't teach him!
21:04:03 <oerjan> i cannot kill oerjan, because then the universe might act to rebalance itself, and i wouldn't want _that_ would i
21:04:40 <cpressey> Gee, this redistribution-of-evil thing is harder than it sounds.
21:04:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: Fair point. Are you extremely bad at maths?
21:05:02 <oerjan> no, just morals. *MWAHAHAHA*
21:05:13 <AnMaster> ffs
21:05:29 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: Not exactly an opposite, then, are you?
21:05:49 <oerjan> i said i was his _evil_ twin, not his exact opposite.
21:06:19 <cpressey> oerjan: If I guess your real name, do you disappear in a puff of smoke?
21:06:19 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: OK, then. Why didn't real Oerjan mention you?
21:06:49 <oerjan> cpressey: no.
21:07:36 <oerjan> what's that sound from the closet...
21:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Honestly, you aren't very good at this whole villainy thing, are you?
21:08:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:09:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:09:28 <Phantom_Hoover> So, are you real oerjan?
21:09:42 <oerjan> real? of course.
21:09:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Not his evil twin?
21:09:57 <oerjan> what evil twin?
21:10:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, don't trust him
21:10:20 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: I don't plan to.
21:10:26 <oerjan> well i don't trust myself either, so that may be a good idea
21:10:34 <Sgeo> Why is NAND considered more.. useful, or whatever, than AND... I think I know. With AND, you need NOT to get NAND
21:10:35 <Phantom_Hoover> For one thing, how did he fail to notice that he was tied up in a closet?
21:10:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, exactly!
21:10:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: NAND is universal. AND isn't.
21:10:58 <oerjan> tied up?
21:11:14 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, but why is that, is my question, I think
21:11:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I guess one could say oerjan has come out of the closest now! XD
21:11:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, if that is what happened
21:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: oerjan knows something about that.
21:12:14 <oerjan> Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post's_lattice and i think that's at least the third time i link to it here
21:12:18 <Phantom_Hoover> But this could be his evil twin, so don't believe a word he says.
21:12:23 <Phantom_Hoover> IT'S A TRAP!
21:12:47 <oerjan> (that lattice summarizes everything about which boolean functions can be expressed with which others)
21:12:50 <Sgeo> Why is... those things?
21:13:55 <oerjan> in particular NAND generates the top element, while AND generates the one called /\P, far below
21:14:04 <cpressey> Yay clones yay
21:14:28 <oerjan> (the top element being the set of all boolean functions)
21:14:37 * Sgeo headaches
21:15:33 <oerjan> Sgeo: perhaps a more practical thing is that NAND is something you need exactly one transistor to make, so counting in terms of NAND gives you a count of transistors - i think
21:15:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you allowed to use constants when making a gate universal?
21:16:10 <cpressey> oerjan: I think not?
21:16:15 <Sgeo> I'm working with Awsistors not Transistors >.>
21:16:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: not in that lattice
21:16:28 <AnMaster> Sgeo, wth is Awsistors?
21:16:41 <AnMaster> or are*
21:16:53 <Sgeo> My name for a fundamental.. thingy in AW
21:16:54 <oerjan> cpressey: well anyway AND doesn't require any, so the points where you apply NOT are sort of the important ones? (this is very vague memory)
21:16:55 <cpressey> If you *can* make a NAND with only one transistor, it'll have crappy electrical properties.
21:17:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: if you can build a NAND (or NOR) gate, you can make anything else.
21:17:07 <AnMaster> Sgeo, AW?
21:17:15 <Sgeo> Active Worlds
21:17:22 <cpressey> oerjan: AND doesn't require any transistors??
21:17:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, including a computer? If not, what else do I need to make a computer?
21:17:42 <Sgeo> And does NAND prove turing-completeness?
21:17:46 <AnMaster> <oerjan> Sgeo: perhaps a more practical thing is that NAND is something you need exactly one transistor to make, so counting in terms of NAND gives you a count of transistors - i think <-- I thought you needed at least two (or was it 4?)
21:17:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: well, memory, probably.
21:18:14 <Sgeo> Have that
21:18:50 <oerjan> Sgeo: anyway to give you _part_ of the explanation why AND doesn't generate everything: AND is a monotone function, which means if you change one input from 0 to 1, the output cannot ever change from 1 to 0. and you cannot compose non-monotone functions from monotone ones (it's the class M near the top, so AND doesn't give all of those either, but if you add OR and constants, you get them)
21:18:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, AND gates are implemented with a NAND + an inverter basically
21:19:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm well isn't there _some_ gate that you get just by connecting wires with resistors? maybe OR?
21:19:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: well, you can build addition, subtraction and multiplication gates with NAND
21:19:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, and for all cases I have seen in CMOS it is 4 gates for NAND + 2 for inverter, you could probably get by on half of that in nMOS but it would consume more static power
21:19:38 <cpressey> AnMaster: I don't think that's true either. That would take 3 transitors, when you only need 2.
21:20:02 <cpressey> OK, CMOS might be a diff story from TTL.
21:20:23 <AnMaster> cpressey, I don't know much about how you do TTL. I know CMOS and a tiny bit of nMOS
21:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: I have circuit diagrams which I drew up in a fit of madness, but they're probably hugely improvable.
21:20:42 <cpressey> oerjan: You can make OR with just wires, but it still has crappy electrical properties unless you put diodes on the inputs.
21:20:47 <cpressey> Otherwise the inputs have crosstalk.
21:20:48 <AnMaster> cpressey, don't TTL use non-MOS gates?
21:21:01 * Sgeo doesn't have to worry about crosstalk
21:21:03 <AnMaster> err
21:21:04 <Sgeo> Or diodes
21:21:07 <AnMaster> transistors*
21:21:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: however adding constants is certainly _also_ represented as elements in that lattice
21:21:15 <AnMaster> cpressey, is it the one with bipolar transistors?
21:21:22 <cpressey> AnMaster: Yes. That's what I think of as a plain "transistor".
21:21:28 <Ilari> TTL => BJTs.
21:21:44 <AnMaster> cpressey, to me plain transistor = pMOS or nMOS
21:21:55 <AnMaster> Ilari, BJT standing for?
21:22:03 <Ilari> Bipolar Junction Transistor
21:22:06 <AnMaster> ah
21:22:36 <AnMaster> Ilari, what use are they nowdays in digital logic?
21:22:43 <Ilari> AnMaster: Pretty much none.
21:22:49 <AnMaster> right
21:23:10 <Ilari> They are used in analog signal processing.
21:23:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: wha are you actually trying to do at the moment?
21:24:05 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, prove turing-completeness. THen, try to figure out how I'd go about designing a computer
21:24:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, AD -> [processing goes here] -> DA ;P
21:24:25 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: do universal gates imply TCness?
21:24:26 <oerjan> Sgeo: NAND gives you all boolean functions of a finite set of bits. that's not quite the same as TC, unless you can use infinitely many gates.
21:24:26 <Ilari> Common Transistor types: Bipolars (for Si, that's BJT), junction transistors (for Si, that's JFET) and metal-insulator-semiconductor transistors (for Si, that's MOSFET).
21:24:39 <AnMaster> Ilari, what do you use JFET for?
21:24:51 <AnMaster> Ilari, also what is Si?
21:24:53 <AnMaster> oh
21:24:54 <AnMaster> not SI?
21:24:56 <AnMaster> right
21:24:58 <AnMaster> Silicon I guess
21:25:02 <Ilari> Yup.
21:25:15 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: by "infinite" do you mean "unbounded"?
21:25:16 <AnMaster> Ilari, but why wouldn't it be MOSFET if it isn't Si?
21:25:16 <oerjan> also you cannot loop with pure abstract NAND gates either, although if you introduce time delay you can get memory with flip-flops.
21:25:17 <cpressey> oerjan: Complexity theorists have "Infinite families of finite boolean functions" for that purpose. They're insane IMO.
21:25:32 <Ilari> AnMaster: You need analog for front stage before A/D converter.
21:25:33 <Sgeo> I can create arbitrary amounts of gates, but it's like adding new hardware
21:25:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, actual infinite in that case, because how would you add them on the fly?
21:25:45 <Sgeo> Well, maybe not "arbitrary". Eventually, there's a limit
21:26:02 <cpressey> There is an infinite family of finite boolean functions which solves the Halting problem (because IF's of FBFs don't have to be defined constructively)
21:26:03 <Sgeo> Also, time delays are easy
21:26:04 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: Oh, halting.
21:26:33 <Ilari> AnMaster: Well, if one builds the corresponding structure from carbon (its possible, in place of oxide layer there's undoped layer), its MISFET.
21:27:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yeah
21:27:29 <oerjan> cpressey: circuit complexity is cool :)
21:27:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: OK, assuming infinite feedback, can we be TC?
21:27:43 <oerjan> i don't know _too_ much about it yet
21:28:03 <Ilari> MESFETs are not related to MOSFETs (thet are like JFETs). MISFETs and MOSFETs are closely related.
21:28:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well with infinite memory and feedback you have everything needed for a TM, so yes
21:28:55 <AnMaster> Ilari, aww, why couldn't it be MOSFIT so the carbon one ended up as MISFIT!
21:29:08 <AnMaster> Ilari, but what does the O and I stand for?
21:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> So it needs feedback and to have independent memory units?
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21:29:54 <Ilari> AnMaster: Oxide
21:29:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well you _could_ get away from feedback by making it even larger, multiplying gates for each timestep
21:30:02 <AnMaster> Ilari, and the I?
21:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> If you can have an arbitrarily large but finite memory is it TC?
21:30:08 <Ilari> AnMaster: Insulator
21:30:19 <AnMaster> Ilari, ah. But the oxide is an insulator isn't it?...
21:30:37 <Ilari> AnMaster: Yes.
21:30:42 <AnMaster> sigh
21:30:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, once again the halting problem
21:30:57 <AnMaster> Ilari, okay what do you use JFET for though? didn't think I saw any answer to that
21:31:02 <AnMaster> don't*
21:31:11 <oerjan> you cannot know in advance how much memory you need
21:31:25 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: OK.
21:31:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: does this suffice?
21:31:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, nothing forbid suspending the system as you build new memory
21:31:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, like, JIT memory
21:31:59 <Ilari> AnMaster: At least discrete op-amp input transistors often are those. But otherwise they are mostly obsoleted by MOSFETs.
21:32:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: wait, you can't have infinite memory.
21:32:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: well you need some gates that support suspension then :D
21:32:17 <AnMaster> Ilari, ah
21:32:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, sure, just gate the clock signal right after the clock generator!
21:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: what computational class is arbitrary-but-finite memory?
21:33:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, problem solved. The flip-flops will stay the same forever, assuming you only use sync logic
21:33:06 <AnMaster> and no async
21:33:23 <Sgeo> Wait, does what suffice?
21:33:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, Bounded Storage Machine?
21:33:57 <Ilari> What's simplest formal language that's not context-sensitive? :-)
21:34:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: the requirements I gave, for TCness. If you can't have infinite or extensible memory, it's a BSM.
21:34:29 <cpressey> aka Finite State Machine
21:34:29 <Ilari> Like a^n b^n is not regular, a^n b^n c^n is not context free...
21:34:40 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: SPACE(f) where f is an arbitrary function giving how much memory you have?
21:34:43 <Sgeo> By "extensible"...
21:34:44 <Sgeo> ?
21:34:50 <oerjan> (given input size)
21:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: you can add arbitrarily more memory during runtime.
21:35:02 <cpressey> Ilari: Simplest? a^n b^n is simple and not context sensitive
21:35:19 <Sgeo> You can't do that in real life!
21:35:20 <cpressey> a^1 is even simpler
21:35:33 <Ilari> not context sensitive meaning exceeds what context sensitive grammars can express.
21:35:37 <Sgeo> But.. no
21:35:47 <Ilari> Oh, but still decidable.
21:35:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the problem here is that you need some restrictions on how to calculate f, because if calculate it with something super-turing itself, you get that the result _can_ solve the halting problem
21:36:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: Then it's not TC, in the same way that C isn't TC. i.e. pointlessly.
21:37:21 <Ilari> At least any simple language that's EXPSPACE-complete to recognize would do...
21:37:23 <cpressey> Can you emulate a Turing Machine in it?
21:37:28 <oerjan> Ilari: well context-sensitive is known to be equivalent to linear space, so take any language that cannot be decided in linear space
21:37:28 <Sgeo> Why don't I just announce that I've built a NAND gate, and see what the reaction is
21:37:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: Conglaturations! It's damn near TC!
21:38:04 <Sgeo> I first actually need to build the gate, though
21:38:33 <oerjan> Ilari: i keep forgetting you already know this stuff :D
21:39:01 <cpressey> I can emulate some Turing Machines on this computer I'm typing on. Most of them I can't, though.
21:39:51 <oerjan> Ilari: actually it might be simpler to emulate a universal, but simple TM with a grammar than to try and add restrictions to get it down to EXPSPACE?
21:40:04 <oerjan> assuming you want grammars
21:40:59 <oerjan> it's not a given less-than-turing-complete is easier to _define_, after all
21:41:15 <Ilari> Ah, Language of all first-order statements about real numbers using only addition (no multiplication).
21:41:57 <cpressey> Not quite as satisfyingly simple as a^n b^n c^n, is it.
21:42:02 <Ilari> Also comparision...
21:42:43 <oerjan> Ilari: hm what about simply a^nb^f(n) where f is something awful to calculate?
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21:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: what is the in-AW nature of the AWsistor?
21:44:02 <Sgeo> "in-AW nature"?
21:44:28 <Phantom_Hoover> What *are* they?
21:45:01 <Sgeo> Oh, not in terms of N-Signals, but what they really are in AW?
21:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> YEs.
21:45:18 <Phantom_Hoover> s/E/e/
21:46:35 <Sgeo> There are 4 triggers in action lines in AW (actually, there are more, but only 2 are relevant): create, which is what happens when an object becomes visible, activate, which is what to do when clicked, bump, for when bumped, and adone, for when an animation on an object is finished playing
21:47:05 <Ilari> A(n,n) could do the trick?
21:47:07 <Sgeo> Animations are defined with the animate command, which, among other things, lets you specify a name and an amount of time
21:47:33 <Sgeo> If I wanted, say, an animate on an object that lasts 5 seconds:
21:47:40 <Sgeo> create animate me . 1 1 5000
21:47:48 <cpressey> For the uninitiated... what is "AW"?
21:47:53 <Sgeo> The me is a special keyword referring to this object
21:48:00 <Sgeo> cpressey, Active Worlds, a virtual environment
21:48:05 <cpressey> Ah. Thanks.
21:48:33 <Sgeo> The astart command starts an animation
21:48:37 <Sgeo> astop stops an animation
21:49:10 <Sgeo> create animate me . 1 1 5000, astart; adone say "Hi!", astart next
21:49:23 <Sgeo> create name next, animate me . 1 1 5000; adone say "Done!"
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21:49:52 <Sgeo> astarts can also specify that the animation loops
21:50:04 <AnMaster> Sgeo, that doesn't answer Phantom_Hoover's question yet?
21:50:14 <Sgeo> It.. almost does
21:50:16 <AnMaster> ah
21:50:18 * AnMaster waits
21:50:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I understand that they're objects.
21:50:53 <Sgeo> Wait, what else is there to understand?
21:51:02 <Sgeo> The animate command can also specify a different object
21:51:12 <oerjan> Ilari: the tricky thing here is that it would have to be superlinear to check a^n b^f(n) _even_ though it's longer than f(n). i'm doubtful that A(n,n) qualifies.
21:52:43 <oerjan> it takes a long time to compute compared to n, but not necessarily compared to A(n,n)
21:52:59 <cpressey> "An example of an EXPSPACE-complete problem is the problem of recognizing whether two regular expressions represent different languages, where the expressions are limited to four operators: union, concatenation, the Kleene star (zero or more copies of an expression), and squaring (two copies of an expression)." -- wikipedia
21:53:11 <cpressey> If I had time to think about it, that might give me ideas.
21:53:36 <Sgeo> create sign "On"; activate animate test . 1 1 0;
21:53:50 <Sgeo> create sign "Off"; activate animate test . 1 1 10000000000
21:53:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it worth it to create a /home partition?
21:54:05 <Sgeo> create name test, sign "Test"; activate astart
21:54:13 <Sgeo> erm
21:54:27 <Sgeo> create name test, sign "Test"; activate astart; adone say "This object was on"
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21:55:52 <oerjan> cpressey: actually that gives a simple solution, just let the language consist of strings of the form RE_1,RE_2 where RE_1 RE_2 are/alternatively aren't representing the same language
21:56:36 <AnMaster> Sgeo, how does this become a gate though?
21:56:46 <cpressey> oerjan: Yes, there ya go.
21:56:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover: I could answer that, but you quit
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21:57:42 <Sgeo> AnMaster, hm? You want an example? I haven't exactly built an example yet
21:58:13 <Sgeo> But I might say, animate-duration-0 on 0 and duration-large on 1 is a "0", and duration-0 on 1 and large on 0 is a "1"
21:58:16 <AnMaster> Sgeo, no, not an example of your gate. Just of an actual transistor
21:59:02 <Sgeo> And an astart tells it to process (originally thought it would be occasionally false edge, but that's not needed I think)
21:59:27 <AnMaster> what
21:59:30 <AnMaster> you completely lost me
21:59:34 <Sgeo> AnMaster, did I say I built a transistor yet? Also, from a logical standpoint, what's the difference betweeen a transistor and an AND gate?
22:00:00 <AnMaster> Sgeo, um. quite a bit?
22:00:25 <Sgeo> Care to explain?
22:00:28 <AnMaster> Sgeo, a transistor isn't digital
22:01:00 <Sgeo> Hm, I don't think I need transistors
22:01:00 <AnMaster> it will be a gradual scale from completely closed to completely open
22:04:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, sorry; I got tired of the live CD>
22:06:17 <Sgeo> LiveCD of what?
22:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> 64-bit Ubuntu. Long stor.y
22:07:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, mhm
22:08:13 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I use separate /home on lvm2
22:08:23 <AnMaster> would make migrating easier to have separate /home
22:08:41 <AnMaster> and lvm2 means you can grow partitions as required
22:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, yep.
22:08:46 <AnMaster> most space on my disk is unallocated
22:10:23 <Sgeo> It just occured to me that it would be absurd to, say, make a computer with 4GB of memory
22:10:32 <Sgeo> Suppose a viewer didn't HAVE 4gb?
22:11:04 <Sgeo> Heck, it's a lot of memory to store a component that stores _1 bit)
22:11:05 <Sgeo> _
22:11:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not possible to change the size of the / partition, is it?
22:11:44 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, sure it is if you put it on lvm
22:11:49 <AnMaster> shrinking is trickier
22:11:52 <AnMaster> depends on FS
22:11:59 <Phantom_Hoover> ext3.
22:12:02 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, many fs, like ext3, xfs and so on can grow on the fly
22:12:08 <AnMaster> think ext3 can grow on the fly too
22:12:13 <AnMaster> no idea about shrinking
22:12:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Shrinking it is, presumably, black magic.
22:12:23 <AnMaster> no fs I know can shrink while mounted
22:12:31 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you shouldn't need to shrink though
22:12:41 <AnMaster> you make partitions small to begin with
22:12:47 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, my entire disc is partitioned.
22:12:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, for example I started with 25 GB /home, then I grew it to 50 GB a few weeks ago
22:13:02 <Phantom_Hoover> When I installed Ubuntu, I was young and nave.
22:13:02 <AnMaster> while downloading something
22:13:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, seems resize2fs can " -M Shrink the filesystem to the minimum size."
22:13:44 <AnMaster> probably not while mounted
22:13:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no idea if it tried to reallocate stuff on disk for that or not
22:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> If I boot the live CD, can I use their partition editor to shrink it?
22:14:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I would use gparted
22:14:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I don't know, why not boot and check
22:14:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, that is what I was planning.
22:14:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I tend to use gparted on systemrescuecd
22:14:54 <AnMaster> it has all the tools required for everything that can be done
22:15:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I don't know if the ubuntu livecd have all the tools installed
22:15:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also, upgrade to ext4 or switch to jfs or such
22:15:25 <AnMaster> but don't stay on ext3
22:15:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I can do these things, probably.
22:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, I'll use qwebirc from the live CD. Bye for now.
22:15:53 <AnMaster> well google for how to convert, ext4 wiki at kernel.org is probably a good source
22:15:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, cya
22:15:59 <AnMaster> going to sleep shortly
22:17:44 <Sgeo> There's a whole wiki for ext4?
22:18:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
22:18:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> Back.
22:18:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK, the live CD has GParted.
22:19:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> And I can shrink my root partition.
22:19:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: I believe there's some sort of preliminary also-shrink online-resizing for btrfs, but you need to be pretty brave to trust that.
22:20:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK, so I presume that I simply shrink sda5, then stick another partition in the freed space?
22:20:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:20:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:21:04 <fizzie> Assuming you're using a filesystem-aware shrinking tool, sure.
22:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie: it's GParted shrinking ext3.
22:21:45 <fizzie> That sounds sensible.
22:22:00 <fizzie> "Online resizing (including shrinking)" in btrfs-0.10 already back in Jan 15, 2008.
22:22:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Can I just leave the partitions taking up all of the disc?
22:22:20 <fizzie> (Unless they've thrown away the feature.)
22:24:37 <Sgeo> Is it possible to get an internship after graduation?
22:24:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, um. does brtfs support defrag too?
22:24:46 <Sgeo> Or do most internships mandate that you're a student?
22:24:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes let lvm2 fill the rest
22:24:57 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, screw this.
22:24:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, there's online defragging in it.
22:25:02 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, then you allocate at runtime from it!
22:25:16 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: my partition table is horrible.
22:25:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, cool. I selected ext4 because they said "soon"
22:25:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, mine used to be. lvm2 lives on a physical partition of yours
22:25:39 <AnMaster> that's all
22:26:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm still waiting
22:26:16 <Phantom_Hoover> There's some Windows stuff jammed at the start, then a huge, 120something GB block of Ubuntu's space, then some swap at the end.
22:27:56 <Gregor-W> Sgeo: You don't explicitly have to be a student to get an internship, but that's the assumption.
22:28:07 <Sgeo> :/
22:28:18 <Gregor-W> Sgeo: The only case where you'd commonly get one as a non-student is if you're between graduating from one school and enrolling in another.
22:28:31 <fizzie> AnMaster: Heh. Well, btrfs is not in 1.0 yet either, and I don't think they have a real schedule, though I guess they haven't made a backwards-incompatible on-disk-format change in ~1.5 years now.
22:28:53 <Sgeo> I guess I should hurry up and look for an internship soon then
22:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I *finally* let Ubuntu run fsck, then GParted insists on doing it again.
22:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Grrr.
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22:33:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah
22:33:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wait for it to become frozen
22:33:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, meanwhile I use xfs or jfs
22:33:31 <AnMaster> jfs can't do online defrag either but it is a good fs still
22:33:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, might switch to brtfs when it becomes stable if it is good
22:34:32 <fizzie> They say it is, but no personal experiences.
22:34:58 <fizzie> I'm just running some boring ext4 filesystems.
22:35:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, that + jfs for me
22:35:29 <AnMaster> oh and xfs
22:36:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, is there a way to defrag lvm volumes? I suspect they are fragmented from growing nowdays. Big chunks (25 GB in a stretch or such) but still
22:38:14 <fizzie> You could check the block mappings to see if they are; it's one of the verbosity flags. I'm not sure if fragmentation matters so much there, since the blocks are still pretty large. (Of course I have no clue if complicated mappings cause some problems.)
22:39:20 <AnMaster> hm
22:39:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, block mappings with lvs? pvs? vgs?
22:39:42 <AnMaster> or which tool?
22:40:14 * Sgeo wonders if 7 addressible bytes of memory and 7 instructions are too few for an 8-bit system
22:40:47 <fizzie> lvdisplay --maps
22:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
22:41:20 <Sgeo> It would mean I'd need pretty much NO gates to say, determine which piece of hardware in the CPU a particular instruction refers to
22:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Why does it need to be 8-bit?
22:42:30 <Sgeo> It doesn't
22:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Then why did you say "8-bit"?
22:43:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, seems /home is split
22:43:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, so how would one defrag it?
22:43:43 <Sgeo> Well, the busses would have.. I don't know
22:43:44 <fizzie> If you have a lot of spare space, you can possibly manually rearrange things with pvmove, though I'm not sure if it bothers to "move" extents from one physical volume to the same. (But if it does, you can tell it to move only the extents of a single LV, and they'd probably end up as a contiguous region after that.
22:44:05 <fizzie> At least if you specify --alloc contiguous too.
22:44:10 <AnMaster> array 1 6 0 wz--n- 927,32g 579,32g
22:44:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I have a lot free
22:44:20 <AnMaster> the last column is free
22:44:23 <AnMaster> from vgs output
22:44:29 <AnMaster> the one before is total
22:44:34 <fizzie> A single split is possibly not very troublesome.
22:45:16 <fizzie> Seems tha Bisqwit has written some sort of script, http://bisqwit.iki.fi/source/lvm2defrag.html
22:46:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, is "Bisqwit" someone you know of?
22:46:44 <fizzie> Not personally, but I know the name; doesn't he do tool-assisted NES speedruns or something like that?
22:46:56 <pikhq> I got filesystem corruption when I ran that script.
22:46:58 <pikhq> And yes, he is.
22:47:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you had said "kernel developer" I would have trusted it more
22:47:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, okay not going to use it then
22:47:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: All of LVM is userspace.
22:47:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, well okay
22:47:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, "lvm developer"?
22:47:46 <AnMaster> that would would have made it sound a lot safer
22:48:40 <fizzie> It seems to generate a commands.sh file to run, so you can make sure it's not doing anything strange.
22:48:42 <AnMaster> also ugh at php
22:49:04 <fizzie> Yes, that's pretty strange language to choose.
22:49:13 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
22:49:28 <Ilari> What PHP?
22:49:30 <ehirdiphone> Of the tataism...
22:49:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh, he's also done the Finnish fan-translation of Chrono Trigger. :p
22:50:05 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: Who?
22:50:12 <augur> ehirdiphone!
22:50:13 <fizzie> ehirdiphone: Bisqwit.
22:50:14 <augur> on a tuesday!
22:50:16 <augur> my word!
22:50:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay not something relevant to this program though
22:50:26 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: Reminds me of an advert.
22:50:27 <AnMaster> plus what pikhq said. nah
22:50:33 <ehirdiphone> augur: Smuggled.
22:50:37 <augur> nice
22:51:12 <augur> ehirdiphone: do you ever, as a result of IRC tab completes, get into the habit of trying to tab-complete your sentences? as if your computer should know what you're trying to say...
22:52:22 <Gregor-W> augur: I just think loudly at my computer and it picks it up and writes what I'm thinking.
22:52:39 <augur> XD
22:52:47 <augur> i keep trying to tab complete my thoughts
22:52:51 <augur> its really frustrating
22:52:59 <Sgeo> It's an iProduct user!
22:53:02 <augur> its like a part of me isnt there
22:53:09 <augur> like i was born wrong
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22:53:34 <AnMaster> <augur> i keep trying to tab complete my thoughts <-- never happened to me
22:53:36 <augur> clearly, i'm a pre-op transhuman, but that goes without saying
22:53:44 <AnMaster> augur, pre-op?
22:53:45 <augur> AnMaster: you need to have thoughts first
22:53:46 <augur> ooooh burn
22:53:48 <augur> yeah, you know
22:53:53 <augur> pre-op. pre-operation.
22:54:08 <augur> the operation that'll implant the cybernetics
22:54:10 <AnMaster> ah
22:54:14 <augur> beep boop
22:56:38 <Gregor-W> "Pre-op transhuman" is an awesome expression :P
22:56:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:03:05 <augur> Gregor-W: :)
23:03:28 <augur> it doesnt hurt that some of my friends, and definitely some of my love interests, are pre-op transboys
23:04:30 <ehirdiphone> I'm postop subhuman
23:04:45 <ehirdiphone> I lurve neuron inhibitors
23:05:26 <ehirdiphone> Joking, I'm actually mid-op human.
23:06:08 <ehirdiphone> btw, the human visualisation system sucks
23:06:20 <ehirdiphone> view an image w colour in your head. Sni
23:06:25 <ehirdiphone> Animate it
23:06:36 <ehirdiphone> Where is it? Oops, it disappeared.
23:07:51 <ehirdiphone> augur: if you're trying to tab complete your thoughts you know what you Want to think. And thud have already thought it.
23:07:55 <ehirdiphone> *want
23:08:00 <ehirdiphone> *thus
23:08:18 <augur> ehirdiphone: i can animat color images in my head :|
23:08:28 <ehirdiphone> yes
23:08:41 <ehirdiphone> then try and figure out where the picture is
23:08:43 <augur> also, i mean tab complete the externalization of those thoughts
23:08:45 <ehirdiphone> it crashes
23:08:48 <augur> uh
23:08:49 <augur> no it doesnt
23:08:57 <ehirdiphone> Yes it does :P
23:09:00 <augur> i can put that picture wherever i want
23:09:04 <augur> it does for you maybe
23:09:11 <ehirdiphone> In front of things???
23:09:12 <augur> but as you said, you're a mid-op subhuman!
23:09:14 <augur> sure!
23:09:16 <augur> why not?
23:09:21 <ehirdiphone> Obscure your computer.
23:09:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed).
23:09:32 <ehirdiphone> augur: Mid op HUMAN
23:09:38 <augur> oh sorry
23:09:42 <ehirdiphone> Or post op SUBHUMAN
23:09:44 <ehirdiphone> :|
23:10:02 <augur> well it cant obscure the computer, due to overriding effects from the eyes
23:10:23 <ehirdiphone> Also the sound synthesising system sucks. Everything sounds distant.
23:10:30 <augur> give me about 750mg of DXM and i can at the very least get full closed eyed visuals
23:10:53 <ehirdiphone> augur: But it never seems to be actually there!
23:11:02 <ehirdiphone> It's always somehow offcamera.
23:11:03 <augur> well, not without drugs, usually, no
23:11:10 <ehirdiphone> xD
23:11:12 <augur> its on camera for me, just not
23:11:17 <augur> not very salient
23:11:18 <ehirdiphone> yeah
23:11:26 <augur> but thats sensible; its very weak compared to the real world
23:11:29 <augur> the world is bright and loud
23:11:30 <ehirdiphone> Just not is keyword
23:11:35 <ehirdiphone> augur: exactly
23:11:42 <ehirdiphone> flaw in sapiensOS
23:11:42 <augur> but that doesnt mean its off camera!
23:11:47 <augur> its just drowned out!
23:11:54 <augur> probably not a flaw, there, buddy :P
23:12:06 <augur> it'd be a bit problematic if you were hallucinating your imagination all the time
23:12:19 <ehirdiphone> sapiensOS also lacks extension capability eg for virtual reality
23:12:24 <augur> no it doesnt
23:12:28 <ehirdiphone> augur: User controlled intensity
23:12:29 <augur> the extension is just illegal.
23:12:49 <augur> you have to break the law to use those mods
23:12:53 <augur> its much like an iPhone
23:13:12 <ehirdiphone> augur: Drugs don't let me program my own VR where I have 70 heads and 30 lightbulbs for genitals
23:13:19 <augur> heh
23:13:24 <ehirdiphone> They just spontaneously give me that.
23:13:24 <augur> you're taking the wrong drugs then ;)
23:13:38 <ehirdiphone> There's a difference :P
23:13:59 <ehirdiphone> augur: i.e. none :P
23:14:39 <ehirdiphone> pikhq€
23:14:44 <ehirdiphone> pikhq ¥¥¥¥
23:14:51 <ehirdiphone> €$¥•
23:15:23 <ehirdiphone> augur: Reading my brains source code would be rad
23:15:44 <ehirdiphone> with the unused evolutionary crud eluded
23:15:49 <ehirdiphone> *elided
23:15:58 <augur> http://genome.ucsc.edu/
23:16:10 <augur> oh, unused, well. we dont know whats used and what isnt. so.
23:16:19 <ehirdiphone> that's not even neuron data
23:16:28 <augur> nope!
23:16:44 <ehirdiphone> that's the machine code for a proprietary computer that creates a similar program to mine
23:16:48 <augur> i like to imagine that DNA is sort of like a ZIP file
23:16:55 <ehirdiphone> in just an unreadable format
23:17:10 <ehirdiphone> augur: more like code for a replicator.
23:17:16 <augur> it encodes the means by which you can build the actual stuff
23:17:22 <augur> not just a replicator tho, right
23:17:34 <ehirdiphone> It's a makefile :P
23:17:45 <augur> its code for how those replicators replicate and interact to form a larger machine
23:18:02 <augur> self organizing transistors
23:18:07 <ehirdiphone> Ie a bigger replicator
23:18:14 <ehirdiphone> *i.e.
23:18:18 <ehirdiphone> Anyway!
23:18:20 <augur> indeed
23:18:22 <augur> anyway
23:18:26 <augur> im off to watch doctor who
23:18:27 <augur> byeee
23:18:36 <ehirdiphone> Sheesh
23:18:41 <ehirdiphone> Just abandon me
23:18:42 <augur> what?
23:18:46 <ehirdiphone> :'(((
23:18:46 <augur> oh im not abandoning
23:18:48 <ehirdiphone> :P
23:18:49 <augur> im just saying bye
23:18:52 <augur> and dumping you in a ditch
23:18:53 <ehirdiphone> wat
23:19:00 <ehirdiphone> ic
23:19:25 <ehirdiphone> augur: IS DR WHO MORE INTRRESTING THAN ME
23:19:26 <cpressey> Boffo.
23:19:28 <ehirdiphone> (yes)
23:19:34 <ehirdiphone> *INTERESTING
23:19:36 <augur> yes.
23:19:38 <ehirdiphone> *DOCTOR
23:19:44 <augur> first doctor!
23:19:45 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: hi
23:19:48 <cpressey> Dr. Who > *
23:19:58 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: *Doctor
23:20:07 <ehirdiphone> Whooooo doctor who
23:20:11 <ehirdiphone> Doctor whooooo
23:20:16 <ehirdiphone> The tardis!
23:20:21 <ehirdiphone> Doctor whoooooooo
23:20:24 <augur> ehird, design a tail-recursive algorithm for swapping out arbitrary elements of a cons tree
23:20:24 <ehirdiphone> Doctor who
23:20:31 <ehirdiphone> Doctor whoooah
23:20:35 <ehirdiphone> Doctor who
23:20:43 <augur> actually sorry
23:20:54 <cpressey> Nice video for that song, if you get a chance to see it
23:21:02 <augur> design a tail recursive set of operations which, when used in one sequence or other, lets you swap out an arbitrary element of a cons tree
23:21:03 <ehirdiphone> Not here.
23:21:18 <ehirdiphone> augur: No.
23:21:22 <augur> oh fine
23:21:23 <augur> lamer
23:21:27 <ehirdiphone> :)
23:21:54 <cpressey> Since I did not make my feeling clear last time:
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23:22:48 <cpressey> ST:TOS => entertaining; ST:TNG => entertaining; ST:DS9 => dull knock-off of B5 (which was also dull); ST:V => borderline unwatchable drivel; ST:V after 7 of 9 => fully unwatchable drivel
23:23:04 <augur> hey, B5 was awesome
23:23:08 <augur> shut your face
23:23:11 <ehirdiphone> ToS I can't watch. Dunno why.
23:23:21 <ehirdiphone> DS9 is so unimaginably boring.
23:23:28 <ehirdiphone> TNG is fun.
23:23:44 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Mind, VOY was fun. Just not intentionally.
23:24:00 <ehirdiphone> Also, moar fan of service lol
23:24:05 <ehirdiphone> *liek
23:24:18 <cpressey> ?
23:24:19 <ehirdiphone> *TOS
23:24:26 <ehirdiphone> 7/9
23:24:36 <ehirdiphone> Moar like Fan/Service.
23:24:41 <ehirdiphone> *liek
23:24:47 <Sgeo> I think I like VOY
23:24:54 <Sgeo> Then again, I haven't watched a lot of it
23:25:06 <ehirdiphone> I've heard "26 of D" before on tvtropes.
23:25:10 <ehirdiphone> IIRC
23:25:39 <ehirdiphone> The great part of voyager is that everyones crazy apart from Dr. Asshole
23:26:04 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: I'm — shock, horror! — making a MY-OS-RELATED COMPROMISE!
23:26:21 <Sgeo> How is EMH an asshole?
23:26:26 <cpressey> Doctor Who trumps any and all of these a hundredfold, though. TOS, anyway, if you can call it that.
23:26:37 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo: Watch the earlier episodes.
23:26:38 <Sgeo> I know the actor plays someone who started out as a bit of a prick in the Stargate franchise
23:26:40 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Indeed?
23:26:55 <ehirdiphone> He's a gigantic prick to everyone :P And it's awesome.
23:27:14 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Doctor Who isn't really scifi anyway.
23:27:24 <ehirdiphone> More like arbitrary plot device fantasy.
23:27:39 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Indeed; a compromise!
23:28:12 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Do tell, or don't.
23:28:39 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Aye, I'll do.
23:29:07 <ehirdiphone> I just decided to make something slightly more conventional beforehand :P
23:29:24 <ehirdiphone> Basically, Plan 9 turned up to 11. Plan 11.
23:29:43 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: No smiley exists that adequately conveys my reaction to that.
23:30:00 <ehirdiphone> Drivers are just userspace daemons serving device files from raw hardware devices.
23:30:16 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Good, bad? Horror; shock?
23:30:24 <cpressey> ...
23:30:30 <pikhq> Meanwhile, Gregor, AnMaster, and I are creating the Ultimate Unix.
23:30:33 <cpressey> Pickled beets?
23:30:35 <ehirdiphone> Sounds bad.
23:30:42 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: AnMaster? Hah.
23:30:48 <pikhq> It shall be Unix. And in userland. On all OSes.
23:30:50 <pikhq> Bwahahah!
23:30:58 <ehirdiphone> Couldnt unix his way out of a paper bag.
23:31:01 <pikhq> Same ABI.
23:31:08 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: That was my idea ...
23:31:38 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: wat.
23:31:41 <cpressey> I suppose I shall be one of the dwindling number of anti-Unix luddite holdouts, still thinking about the Lisp machines. We'll see.
23:31:52 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: No. Me too!
23:32:03 <cpressey> Er, Plan 9 is unix in my book.
23:32:08 <ehirdiphone> You see, plan 9 took unix and turned it into STUFF.
23:32:14 <cpressey> Small-u unix, but unix still.
23:32:21 <ehirdiphone> You gotta look closer.
23:32:39 <ehirdiphone> I too was skeptical. And it's not ideal: but very very good.
23:33:08 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Lisp machines aren't so pure. They used byte based file systems to store stuff.
23:33:28 <ehirdiphone> Not even in a pure, abstract way like plan 9.
23:33:53 <pikhq> cpressey: Yes, but Plan 9 is the Unix done ideally.
23:33:59 <pikhq> Well.
23:34:01 <pikhq> Nearly.
23:34:28 <ehirdiphone> The Unix
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23:34:55 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: The process nanespaces change EVERYTHING
23:35:07 <ehirdiphone> / differs from process to process
23:35:13 <ehirdiphone> It's a namespace
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23:35:22 <cpressey> "Thinking about" does not mean replicating, but whatever.
23:35:41 <Sgeo> ehirdiphone, I have managed to interest multiple people here in AW stuff
23:35:49 <ehirdiphone> The window manager starts it's windows with a namespace where the raw /dev/screen points to the WM
23:35:53 <Sgeo> Well, not interest per se, but it's been talked about
23:36:00 <ehirdiphone> Which then blits it to a window.
23:36:06 <ehirdiphone> That's elegant.
23:36:17 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: In Plan 9, how do I, a process, send a message to another process?
23:36:19 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo: Not really. I read.
23:37:05 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: You tend to communicate with abstract devices instead. But /dev/prog/ and /proc/N/.
23:37:13 <ehirdiphone> Latter moreso.
23:37:21 <ehirdiphone> Dunno if I've seen the former.
23:37:40 <ehirdiphone> But almost universally the interface is abstract and generic.
23:38:13 <ehirdiphone> *na
23:38:21 <ehirdiphone> *namespaces
23:38:27 <ehirdiphone> (ancient typo)
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23:40:07 <ehirdiphone> Anyway that way that the wm works automatically means you can run any process instead of a wm just fine and also that the WM nests perfectly.
23:40:32 <ehirdiphone> It just splits it's own /dev/screen up for it's children, basically.
23:40:41 <ehirdiphone> *its *its
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23:41:04 <ehirdiphone> and keyboard mouse device files ofc
23:41:22 <cpressey> Cute trick.
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23:41:49 <ehirdiphone> Trick? Underlying philosophy.
23:42:11 <ehirdiphone> There is only one obviously correct way to manage windows on plan 9; that is it.
23:42:29 <cpressey> Cute underlying philosophy, then.
23:42:40 <ehirdiphone> Try that without per-process namespaces!
23:43:30 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Also, say you are connected to a machine A.
23:43:49 <ehirdiphone> You want to run a machine A program with the graphics on your screen.
23:44:39 <ehirdiphone> You do, basically, connect to your computer from A then "bind /net/mybox/dev/screen /dev/screen".
23:45:12 <ehirdiphone> Run the program; it appears where you ran those commands (using that windows screen device)
23:45:33 <ehirdiphone> Same thing for kbd and mouse ofc
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23:45:47 <ehirdiphone> *You, basically,
23:46:06 <cpressey> I should be impressed.
23:46:45 <ehirdiphone> Well, it's X11 forwarding in zero lines of code. Gotta be doing something right.
23:48:29 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: I'm as much an antiunix zealot as yesterday
23:48:50 <ehirdiphone> I've always liked plan 9.
23:50:01 <cpressey> I used to like Plan 9 but now it irritates me.
23:50:10 <cpressey> I'm letting my feelings get in the way, obviously.
23:56:32 <cpressey> Sorry to be so negative.
23:56:43 <cpressey> Not sure what else to do.
23:57:21 <cpressey> No real plan to design my own OS. Only pipe dreams, for no purpose, that will never materialize.
23:57:51 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, we could just have a module called plan9 alongside the posix one
23:57:56 <AnMaster> no problem
23:57:58 <AnMaster> quite feasible
23:58:01 <AnMaster> *shrug*
23:58:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, ^
23:58:15 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, but I assume you implement it :P
23:58:23 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: no you couldn't
23:58:30 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, um. same API.
23:58:39 <ehirdiphone> ... Fail.
23:58:42 <ehirdiphone> So hard.
23:58:57 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, of course you would have to do the process stuff too. But that goes into the API
23:59:09 <cpressey> "rom the Earth perspective, Martian software is just another strange, mutually incompatible doohickey. Welcome aboard! Alas, our mudball is already ornamented with many such curios. They stick quite well."
23:59:12 <AnMaster> I assume we would do some such emulation anyway for posix on win32
23:59:14 <cpressey> *"From
23:59:19 <AnMaster> far from all, but some
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