←2010-06-29 2010-06-30 2010-07-01→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:06 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: You just updated...
00:00:26 <cpressey> I won't defend Plan 9 strongly, but slapping a POSIX compatibility layer on it doesn't sound appetizing
00:00:41 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: A Yarvin disciple.
00:00:41 <ehirdiphone> New one.
00:00:48 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Yes I did, but it's not 100% complete, one sec
00:00:51 <ehirdiphone> ...catseye.tc, to complete my utterance.
00:01:05 <AnMaster> cpressey, um you realise I said we would slap plan9 compat on windows and such
00:01:08 <Sgeo> Active Worlds Inc. > Microsoft
00:01:09 <AnMaster> not the other way around
00:01:10 <AnMaster> ...
00:01:11 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: No, just someone who has read that post and mused about it.
00:01:18 <AnMaster> I hope ehirdiphone realise this too
00:01:18 <cpressey> I think Nock is actually pretty lame :/
00:01:27 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, right?
00:01:28 <cpressey> Well, it's a nice esolang
00:01:33 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Nock sucks. Urbit is better.
00:01:38 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I realise.
00:01:52 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, and I say it could be done, but I'm not the one to do it
00:01:57 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Urbit approaches a decent idea. Especially the networking.
00:02:19 <Sgeo> When I contacted AWI, they were really helpful in .. what they thought was a lost password situation
00:02:22 <cpressey> But Urbit is just an opaque function really, as one of the comments pointed out. Which is not a bad thing.
00:02:28 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, oh and we need dynamic linking to pull this off. So you will hate it anyway
00:02:31 <AnMaster> *shrug*
00:02:41 <Sgeo> Here [with an MSN issue], my friend's giving a lot of information to prove that it's really him, and it's "not enough"
00:02:45 <cpressey> So I think Yarvin's a bit confused, but he makes some nice analogies and such.
00:02:48 <AnMaster> Sgeo, "what they thought"?
00:02:57 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: The basic trick of Microcosm is to just have a seperate ABI running on one's OS. :P
00:03:45 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: You're a purposefully-inflammatory troll who has no unique ideas that are not boring and prides himself on purposeful misunderstanding. Just STFU, at least to me.
00:03:58 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I didn't actually lose my password, I needed something else
00:04:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, ... what is it with ehirdiphone?
00:04:13 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you are the one trolling here.
00:04:25 <ehirdiphone> I'm more open about disliking you than the others.
00:04:34 <ehirdiphone> That's a thing, I guess.
00:04:56 <ehirdiphone> (The others being a welldefined set of people I won't name.)
00:05:49 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Now the update's complete. Stupid XHTML cleanser stripped out my applet tag the first time.
00:06:06 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: I just meant the news post.
00:06:13 <ehirdiphone> Can't use java on iPhone...
00:06:17 <cpressey> Now to pump out four or five more languages, zzo38-style, and I'll have 60.
00:06:35 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Well, don't worry about it -- it's not exactly earth-shattering.
00:06:48 <cpressey> Oh speaking of which, did anyone catch what Knuth announced?
00:06:49 <ehirdiphone> Make a calculus ala lambda, pi, object calculus.
00:07:03 <ehirdiphone> Nope. New TeX update?
00:07:05 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Coroutine calculus.
00:07:05 <pikhq> cpressey: Not yet.
00:07:13 <ehirdiphone> He's admitting to being mortal?
00:07:23 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: You mean pi calculus.
00:07:32 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: I thought that was processes.
00:07:44 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Close enough.
00:07:56 <cpressey> I need a raised-eyebrow smiley.
00:07:59 <ehirdiphone> Do coroutine calculus then.
00:08:02 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> Can't use java on iPhone... <-- even my old old nokia can use java. Not sure about applets though, but I think it might
00:08:06 <pikhq> cpressey: 5:30 Pacific time. Still a couple more hours.
00:08:10 <ehirdiphone> Sigma calculus?
00:08:40 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I don't even give half a shit and you know it.
00:08:42 <AnMaster> <cpressey> I need a raised-eyebrow smiley. <-- try ^_^ or such
00:08:47 <ehirdiphone> I was merely stating a fact.
00:09:13 <cpressey> ^_^ looks too much like a pleased Pokemon mumblesomething.
00:09:24 <AnMaster> cpressey, haha
00:09:28 <cpressey> More to the point, ^_^ looks nothing like a raised eyebrow
00:09:39 <AnMaster> cpressey, what about -_^
00:09:43 <AnMaster> one raised eyebrow
00:09:45 <cpressey> Closer
00:10:04 <cpressey> Maybe I should go with o_O
00:10:09 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: So what operations? Coroutine creation, yield(v), next(coro), while x:=next(coro).
00:10:14 <ehirdiphone> What else?
00:10:20 <AnMaster> cpressey, hm possibly
00:11:02 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: I thought they'd be like lambdas somehow, but with a "yield" combinator. Haven't really thought about it.
00:11:06 <AnMaster> night
00:11:21 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Nah, make it purist :)
00:11:43 <ehirdiphone> Like pi calc.
00:11:55 <cpressey> Eh, it's been done. Probably.
00:12:32 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Invent a language like banana scheme except you can increase the level by one with a function
00:12:48 <ehirdiphone> To haltcheck more programs.
00:12:57 <ehirdiphone> I suggest calling it (1up)
00:13:09 <cpressey> No, I'm not gonna do that.
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00:13:14 <cpressey> Not because I think it is a bad idea.
00:13:21 <cpressey> But because there are bounds on my time.
00:13:41 <ehirdiphone> It's not hard to invent that :P
00:13:43 <cpressey> I encourage you to have a go at it.
00:13:54 <ehirdiphone> You need to beat zzo!
00:13:58 <ehirdiphone> It is VITAL.
00:14:06 <cpressey> In some sense, not possible.
00:14:21 <cpressey> In another sense, already have.
00:14:30 <ehirdiphone> Does he create languages faster than light?
00:14:37 <cpressey> o_O
00:15:02 <Gregor-W> ehirdiphone: That response was pure, pure brilliance.
00:15:03 <ehirdiphone> You said impossible to beat :P
00:15:20 <ehirdiphone> I guess plain lightspeed would work too.
00:15:44 <ehirdiphone> Wait
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00:15:59 <cpressey> At the speed of light, all languages have infinite mass
00:16:05 <ehirdiphone> Gregor-W: I did NOT even notice the tim pun
00:16:12 <ehirdiphone> *tine travel
00:16:14 <Gregor-W> ehirdiphone: D'AWWWWW :(
00:16:16 <ehirdiphone> *time
00:16:20 <Gregor-W> That's why it was brililant :P
00:16:25 <Gregor-W> *brilliant >_>
00:16:31 <ehirdiphone> Gregor-W: My subconscious is hilarious XD
00:16:58 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Does that mean that as languages approach the speed of light, they become C++?
00:17:12 <cpressey> Ewww
00:17:23 <cpressey> Or PL/I
00:17:34 <ehirdiphone> Gregor-W: Performance joke
00:17:38 <ehirdiphone> Intentional?
00:17:45 <Gregor-W> Unintentional!
00:17:51 <ehirdiphone> XD
00:18:07 <ehirdiphone> This is the subconscious party
00:22:19 <cpressey> Well, let's pretend we can measure this. Zzo38 appears to have 59 languages listed on his wikipedia user page.
00:22:50 <cpressey> I have 56 listed, which is fuzzy, but let's arbitrarily say, canonically so. So I need at least 4 more.
00:23:50 <Gregor-W> WTFBBQ is all this then?
00:24:41 <cpressey> Last I checked, Wouter had 59 languages listed, 47 of which had actual names.
00:25:31 <cpressey> Checked again; he hasn't updated his list since Bear (2005).
00:26:17 <cpressey> So "first one to 60" would be a reasonable competition, but one in which I have a significant handicap.
00:27:14 <cpressey> Gah, what a way to suck the fun out of it.
00:27:51 <cpressey> I'll just keep on... whatever it is that I do. -in'.
00:28:18 <Gregor-W> I still don't get it at all :P
00:29:15 <cpressey> Gregor-W: ehirdiphone has told me "You need to beat zzo!" In terms of number of languages invented.
00:29:40 <Gregor-W> Ahhh
00:30:16 <Gregor-W> I prefer to write few, awesome languages :P
00:30:56 <ehirdiphone> cpressey goes for quantity + quality
00:31:01 <cpressey> I like to think I hold certain minimum standards of awesomeness. Or was it gnarliness?
00:31:10 <ehirdiphone> zzo goes for...um... quantity
00:31:34 <ehirdiphone> Wouter is lying. He can't actually program.
00:31:41 <Gregor-W> I go for ... other, equally-esoteric but less-languagey-sometimes projects?
00:31:51 <cpressey> Yes it is all a NIGERIAN SCAM
00:32:12 <ehirdiphone> To take our aardappels.
00:32:24 <ehirdiphone> Night.
00:32:55 <ehirdiphone> Bye.
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00:33:16 <cpressey> I leave too now.
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00:47:41 <Sgeo> I feel like I'm taking a trip into script-kiddy central
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03:28:06 <coppro> http://www.kongregate.com/games/Coolio_Niato/lighbot-2-0
03:33:35 <pikhq> OMFG
03:33:41 <pikhq> MicroXwin.
03:34:06 <pikhq> It's a windowing system that is *API* compatible with libX11. While not sucking.
03:34:30 <pikhq> It's teensy.
03:35:30 <pikhq> Gosh darnit it's nonfree.
03:37:14 <coppro> but it's not on the X protocol?
03:38:16 <pikhq> Not the X protocol.
03:48:55 <pikhq> Hot shit. GTK runs directly on the framebuffer.
03:54:15 <coppro> okay, new idea
03:54:56 <coppro> must make a language where something called a "dragon" is very complex, but somewhat useful
03:55:10 <coppro> this is so that a comment called "here be dragons" is both valid and useful
04:38:04 <coppro> ooh, Knuth's supposed to make some major announcement tomorrow
05:05:49 <AnMaster> <pikhq> It's a windowing system that is *API* compatible with libX11. While not sucking. <-- what about the new xcb thingy
05:05:55 <AnMaster> that most things switched to?
05:06:39 <AnMaster> coppro, wait, he hypes it like Jobs?
05:07:19 <coppro> http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/news.html#lectures
05:08:05 <AnMaster> coppro, not tomorrow
05:08:06 <AnMaster> today
05:08:18 <coppro> depends on your time zone
05:08:33 <AnMaster> well 06:08 local time
05:08:35 <AnMaster> June 30
05:08:40 <coppro> western Canada is still on Tuesday
05:08:41 <AnMaster> UTC+2
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06:01:08 <zzo38> Is still Tuesday here
06:11:46 <zzo38> " !!!" -- my school's principal, trapped in a soundproof box 15.6m x 4.0m
06:12:05 <coppro> I'O_o
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06:16:51 <zzo38> you can figure out which is fake because my computer is "zzo38computer.cjb.net" and it will resolve to the same IP address as the address I am connecting from, so it is possible to check.
06:17:14 <coppro> uh, what?
06:20:01 <zzo38> Since I am register, you can use NS INFO on this server. But on some other IRC networks I might not be (it might not even support that function), so you have to figure out otherwise.
06:20:48 <zzo38> Also, if it is my own IRC server you can also see "" also means I connected. This way you can also be sure that it is not someone else on the same router as I am, even
06:21:51 <coppro> you are making no sense whatsoever
06:22:10 <coppro> I'm not even sure you're talking English
06:22:18 <zzo38> coppro: Why do you think it is not sense?
06:22:36 <coppro> sounds like a Markov bot
06:22:37 <zzo38> If you do not understand, please be specific ask specific question
06:23:09 <coppro> which means I imagine that zzo38 is trying to see if a bot can pass as him
06:23:11 <coppro> and the answer is no
06:24:04 <zzo38> No, it isn't a bot.
06:32:28 <zzo38> How many IRC servers implement SUMMON command?
06:35:21 <pikhq> This is a zzo38 bot running off of logs of his messages.
06:35:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh yes can be
06:35:36 <Ilari> What's /SUMMON?
06:35:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, didn't he say something about that once?
06:36:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: Perhaps.
06:36:07 <zzo38> Ilari: SUMMON command is for telling user on the same computer as IRC server running, tell them to connect to IRC.
06:36:16 <pikhq> But, it is running from the same host as zzo38computer.cjb.net
06:36:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, though looks more like ALICE or such. Since it does sometimes keep on topic
06:36:48 <zzo38> pikhq: This is not running off of log of my messages, these are new messages! It is possible some messages are same as old ones, but mostly new messages
06:36:59 <AnMaster> XD
06:37:01 <AnMaster> how very zzo
06:37:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, the major thing is that the syntax is... Off.
06:37:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm?
06:37:31 <pikhq> I seem to recall that zzo38 didn't use weird syntax.
06:37:35 <pikhq> zzo38 is.
06:37:37 <AnMaster> <zzo38> " !!!" -- my school's principal, trapped in a soundproof box 15.6m x 4.0m <-- now that line confused the hell out of me
06:37:58 <pikhq> In particular, plurals.
06:38:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, huh, never noticed that
06:38:25 <pikhq> Also, much of the case system of English appears to be missing.
06:38:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's *jarring* for me.
06:38:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, well sure
06:38:55 <pikhq> But given the errors I've seen in a lot of native speakers' English, I'm guessing it isn't for most.
06:39:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, which case system?
06:39:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: The one most people aren't aware exists because it's more the *remnants* of a case system.
06:40:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, but what is a case system!?
06:41:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: A case in a language is a change in form indicating the function of a word in a phrase or sentence.
06:41:04 <zzo38> I don't think we generally need plurals, who invented plurals anyways?
06:41:22 <pikhq> It's most common in English on the pronouns.
06:41:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, you just used one
06:41:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, am/are/is?
06:41:56 <pikhq> Another example.
06:42:25 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes I did but I still think it is not generally needed in most cases
06:42:35 <AnMaster> zzo38, "in most case" you mean
06:42:38 <AnMaster> not "cases"
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06:43:24 <zzo38> Sometimes I don't know which plural to use but I use plural anyways in English writing, mostly, since it is English writing
06:43:34 <AnMaster> there is only one plural
06:43:37 <AnMaster> there is singular too
06:43:39 <zzo38> But not always
06:43:58 <AnMaster> zzo38, and yes it should be cases
06:43:58 <pikhq> zzo38: Out of immense curiosity: what is your native language?
06:44:03 <AnMaster> but I was joking there
06:44:08 <AnMaster> about your logic
06:44:11 <zzo38> pikhq: Canada
06:44:20 <AnMaster> zzo38, French or English?
06:44:41 <AnMaster> zzo38, or some native language to Canada?
06:44:51 <zzo38> AnMaster: Canadian English
06:44:55 <AnMaster> ah
06:45:17 <pikhq> Then... Why the heck is your English being so odd?
06:45:20 <zzo38> But I still think there is a lot of messy stuff in English and in other languages too
06:46:01 <pikhq> It really feels like I'm seeing a non-native speaker with a decent level of competence...
06:46:19 <pikhq> It might just be the plural thing.
06:46:58 <zzo38> Some people used to think of there must be a "ONE TRUE LANGUAGE", and that is was English, because that is the only language they know. I had similar thoughts but I thought it can't be English, because of so many strange thing!
06:47:43 <pikhq> 一つ真語?こりゃ英語じゃない〜。
06:48:18 <pikhq> 1 true language? that's not English...
06:49:37 <Sgeo_> How many ... thingies can a prefix-free encoding with 8 bits encode?
06:49:43 <zzo38> Why does NS and CS commands don't use proper IRC syntax?
06:50:28 <pikhq> zzo38: GAH STOP IT THAT HURTS
06:51:18 <zzo38> pikhq: How can it hurt you?
06:51:35 <Sgeo_> ns and cs aren't strictly commands
06:52:02 <pikhq> It is incredibly, incredibly jarring. Much like nails on a chalkboard.
06:52:50 <pikhq> It forces me to reparse the sentence. And have to attempt to decode it. It's just... Gah.
06:53:44 <zzo38> Sgeo_: They are one kind of command?
06:54:22 <Sgeo_> They're messages to NameServ and ChanServ
06:54:34 <coppro> not even messages
06:54:34 <zzo38> I know NS is command to access NickServ and so on
06:54:46 <coppro> they are merely aliases provided by some clients
06:54:55 <coppro> there is no NS command in the IRC protocol
06:55:09 <zzo38> Maybe not in standard IRC protocol, but many servers do support NS and CS command
06:55:20 <zzo38> Including Freenode
06:55:21 <pikhq> I refuse to believe your native language is English.
06:55:37 <zzo38> pikhq: OK, you can believe what you want to believe or to not believe, if you want to
06:55:55 <Sgeo_> My native language is Python. Well, no. How do you define "native"? VB5 might be my native language in a sense
06:56:07 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Native spoken language.
06:57:26 <pikhq> zzo38: You are managing to write indisputably incorrect English. This is amazing considering that correct English is undefined.
06:58:32 <zzo38> pikhq: A lot of things in English are wrong, that is why sometimes we have to write wrong thing to make it correct as what is trying to mean
06:58:36 <zzo38> But not always
06:59:55 <pikhq> Eigo ni tsuite machigau koto ga ooi, dakara tadashii ni naru tame ni tokidoki chigau koto wo kaeruhazu.
06:59:59 <Sgeo_> I sometimes write gramatically incorrect sentences when I forget what I wrote at first.
07:00:03 <pikhq> Demo itsumo ja nai.
07:00:18 <Sgeo_> The old man the boat.
07:00:20 <zzo38> And why some IRC servers use different numerics for the HELP command?
07:00:22 <pikhq> What you are writing is about as correct English as what I wrote there.
07:00:38 <pikhq> And about as illustrative of what you said.
07:00:53 <Sgeo_> pikhq, We painted the wall with cracks
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07:03:08 <zzo38> It says you have to write /msg NickServ help commands but that doesn't work, you have to write NS HELP COMMANDS does works
07:04:14 <coppro> officially it should be SQUERY NickServ HELP
07:04:40 <zzo38> coppro: It says SQUERY is unknown command
07:04:49 <coppro> yes, I know
07:04:51 <coppro> but it's in the spec
07:04:58 <coppro> (no one follows the spec)
07:05:32 <zzo38> The IRC server software I use does support SQUERY
07:05:59 <zzo38> But Freenode server software does not support SQUERY
07:06:27 <zzo38> Why is that?
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07:08:51 <coppro> ask in the channel
07:09:07 <zzo38> In what channel?
07:10:01 <coppro> #ircd-seven or something
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07:13:04 <zzo38> That didn't work. I got http://sprunge.us/VDBg
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07:18:48 <Sgeo_> "Just without you, this game would never exist"
07:19:14 <zzo38> What game do you refer to?
07:30:28 <Sgeo_> The game I've been working on since November 2009
07:31:14 <Sgeo_> The code's been rewritten twice, I've taken at least one major hiatus, possibly two..
07:31:34 <Sgeo_> Two complete language changes (One of which I wasn't around to see)
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10:05:47 <CakeProphet> !haskell instace (Monad m) => (MonadAdd m) where (>+<) :: m a -> m -> m
10:30:05 <Deewiant> s/instace/instance/ and two kind errors
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11:35:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: [2010-06-30 13:34:13] Tweeted: About NetHack: healthy, wealthy and wise quetzalcoatl, who discovered that an unlucky hacker once had a potion of sickness. (fungot)
11:35:55 <fungot> fizzie: grep for it...
11:36:18 <fizzie> That's not much of a discovery.
11:36:19 <Deewiant> That hacker does sound unlucky
11:36:50 <ais523> am I mad for printing a PDF to PDF just to cut out some of the pages in it?
11:37:18 <fizzie> Yes, you should pdftk it instead.
11:37:44 <fizzie> Remove 'page 13' from in1.pdf to create out1.pdf: pdftk in.pdf cat 1-12 14-end output out1.pdf
11:38:01 <fizzie> Even our workstations have that thing preinstalled.
11:38:16 <ais523> not installed here
11:38:30 <fizzie> That is a bit sucky.
11:40:01 <fizzie> Priting is then perhaps better than pdftops/pdf2ps + psselect + ps2pdf; the round-trip to postscript-land sometimes messes things up.
11:40:23 <ais523> it's only virtual printing, theoretically it shouldn't really mess with the PDF at all
11:41:27 <fizzie> Theoretically, schmeoretically. If the virtual PDF printer pretends to be a postscript printer (which doesn't sound unlikely) it still involves some conversions, much like the pdf2ps+ps2pdf way.
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11:54:32 <ais523> apparently, Knuth is going to make an "earthshaking announcement" today
11:55:01 <ais523> rare for him to self-promote like that...
11:57:31 <fizzie> Turns out he wasn't a mortal human after all, but a representative of a superintelligent alien species.
11:57:36 <fizzie> (Just a guess.)
11:58:12 <ais523> I'll always remember Knuth for optimising the translation of statements of the form "if a then b:=c" to INTERCAL
11:58:16 <ais523> by avoiding branches
12:04:44 <fizzie> Could the announcement be "just" TAoCP 4A? I'm not sure that'd be sufficiently earthshaking, since it's been promised "late 2010" anyway.
12:05:58 <ais523> who knows
12:07:17 <fizzie> Knuth, hopefully.
12:07:19 <ais523> heh, just saw a bogus proof on Slashdot that the last digit of pi was 5
12:12:23 <fizzie> "In the audio recording, when asked by Mr Mattsson what law police were using to detain him and ask for details, one officer replies: 'We don’t have to have a law.'"
12:12:31 <fizzie> That might not be something you want to hear from the police.
12:18:55 <ais523> oh, seems it's Wednesday next week, rather than today
12:20:41 <fizzie> Huh? Knuth's own page says "Wednesday, 30 June, 5:30pm, at the Sir Francis Drake Hotel in San Francisco -- ``An Earthshaking Announcement''"
12:20:46 <fizzie> That's today.
12:21:34 <fizzie> (And the corresponding TeX conference is "June 28-30, 2010" too.)
12:22:23 <fizzie> The conference program, incidentally, only lists it as "A Special Announcement!". Which one it is: earthshaking, or just special, I wonder.
12:29:54 <ais523> perhaps it is today, then
12:43:44 <Sgeo_> Declare variables. Not war.
12:44:45 <ais523> Sgeo_: hippy computer programming?
12:45:22 <Sgeo_> http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs182.snc4/37459_135556353130832_124438437575957_297508_162276_n.jpg
12:45:51 <Sgeo_> That's.. rather unhelpful, isn't it, except letting everyone know that I didn't come up with it
13:00:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: What's that time in UTC-land
13:03:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: I believe it's around midnight, based on the location of the conference.
13:04:16 <Deewiant> Yeah, something like that
13:04:38 <fizzie> It's +7 apparently, they're having daylight saving time going on too.
13:05:07 <fizzie> Or UTC-7, the "+7" meant "the offset from that to UTC".
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13:22:16 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> How many ... thingies can a prefix-free encoding with 8 bits encode?
13:22:43 <oerjan> um 256? if you use all 8 bits you have no prefixes to consider
13:23:30 <oerjan> or rather, every 8-bit sequence is trivially not a prefix of any other
13:32:33 <Sgeo_> So scratch that idea than? I just thought it would be easier to detect if the first bit were 0, or, if not, if it was 11, or if not, etc. etc. etc.
13:32:52 <oerjan> 02:05:47 <CakeProphet> !haskell instace (Monad m) => (MonadAdd m) where (>+<) :: m a -> m -> m
13:32:55 <oerjan> 02:30:05 <Deewiant> s/instace/instance/ and two kind errors
13:33:22 <oerjan> actually s/instace/class/
13:33:29 <oerjan> and still two kind errors
13:35:35 <oerjan> Sgeo_: you mean you cannot do more testing if the first bit is 0, etc.? in that case you'd get only 8 possibilities, i'd think
13:36:13 <oerjan> 0, 11, 100, 1011, 10100, 101011, 1010100, 10101011
13:36:16 <Sgeo_> Not that I _cannot_, but it wouldn't be easy to be able to test all 256 possiblities
13:36:45 <Sgeo_> Oh, "etc"
13:37:05 <oerjan> well then the question is how many values you need
13:37:27 <oerjan> if you need 8 say, then using 3 bits would be better i should think
13:38:11 <fizzie> If you need 8 but with a non-uniform distribution, and you're going to do a per-bit testing/branching like that anyway, you could as well use a variable-length prefix-free code.
13:38:12 <Sgeo_> I believe (but am not certain), that I need one awsistor per bit per value I want to test
13:39:03 <Sgeo_> If I were to do full capacity.. thingy
13:39:24 <oerjan> so 256*8 awsistors for full 8-bit?
13:39:50 <Sgeo_> Yes
13:40:01 <Sgeo_> And that would probably be a major PITA and loss of space
13:41:03 <Sgeo_> Then again, I'm not likely to want to test every value
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13:41:20 <Sgeo_> If I have, say, 10 opcodes (terminology?) it's 10*8
13:41:24 <Sgeo_> Which is still a lot
13:42:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, computersmithing?
13:42:01 <oerjan> well with 10 opcodes you can fit those in 4 bits, so you should be able to shrink that to 10*4
13:42:42 <oerjan> and indeed a little less if you combine that with prefix-freeness
13:42:45 <fizzie> Well, I don't know what your thingies are capable of. But if you can do an "if bit n is zero, do x; otherwise y" test, and x/y can be similar tests for further bits, you only need the number of non-leaf nodes in a full binary tree of height n to attach a different action to every n-bit sequence.
13:44:25 <oerjan> indeed if it's one awsistor per if in that way, then you should need less than 256*8, since for example all cases with first bit 0 can share the first bit test
13:44:48 <Sgeo_> oerjan, what if I add an opcode later? (Or, more likely, add memory? Or output? I'd probably end up using the same checking to determine which memory or output to go to)
13:45:18 <oerjan> Sgeo_: if you add an opcode you'd have to add a new branch to one of the leaves, presumably
13:45:42 <Sgeo_> Right, so the tree is more flexible than assuming I'm working with 4 bits
13:45:42 <oerjan> say by splitting 111 into 1110 and 1111
13:46:03 <Sgeo_> It's 2 awsistors per test, I think
13:46:16 <Sgeo_> Erm, if/else test
13:46:25 <oerjan> ok, it should still be less with tree-like branching
13:47:12 <oerjan> 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32 + 64 + 128 + 256 = 510 for full 8-bit, i think
13:47:17 <fizzie> Of course if you don't mind the codeword length at all, you can treat it as a n-bit bitmask, use 100... for first opcode, 0100.. for second, etc., and then you just need one "if" test per opcode, with no elses.
13:47:38 <Sgeo_> Actually, 1 awsistor per if test with no else... I think
13:48:20 <fizzie> But you'll end up with what's basically unary numbers that way; to represent n opcodes like that, you'll need n-bit numbers.
13:48:54 <fizzie> And it's not exactly practical to do anything with them except use as symbols.
13:49:10 <Sgeo_> Right. So opcodes, but not memory or output
13:50:04 <Sgeo_> With memory-mapped registers, I might be able to get away with.. far fewer opcodes?
13:50:21 <fizzie> You can get away with one if you want.
13:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, surely the register would need to be included in the opcode?
13:50:49 <Sgeo_> ...hm
13:51:02 <fizzie> That's a matter of definition, whether operands are part of the opcode or not.
13:51:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I suppose it could have the register in the next octet.
13:51:47 <oerjan> assuming registers and opcode are somewhat orthogonal to each other, you might still save a lot by sharing stuff
13:52:02 <fizzie> Wikipedia's definition considers "opcode" as "the portion of a machine language instruction that specifies the operation to be performed", with operands being other parts of the instruction.
13:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> But then you lose simple 8-bit immediate operands.
13:52:29 <Phantom_Hoover> How do other 8-bit processors do it?
13:53:03 <oerjan> the register could just be in like the lowest 2-4 bits of the command?
13:53:13 <oerjan> assuming you don't have that many registers
13:53:26 <fizzie> Yes, usually. But you don't need to count the register as a part of the opcode even if it's in the same byte.
13:54:34 <oerjan> indeed, as long as they are disjoint bits the tests for opcode and register don't need to be intertwined
13:55:02 <fizzie> Though, well... 6502 puts register names in the mnemonics, and things with different mnemonics are typically considered different opcodes.
13:55:27 <fizzie> There's INC, INX and INY, which increment the accumulator, X and Y register, respectively.
13:55:58 * oerjan reminisces
13:56:29 <fizzie> Admittedly it only *has* three registers, and you can't do much with X and Y (except use them as indices in quirky addressing modes), so in most cases everything just operates on the accumulator.
13:57:24 <Sgeo_> How does one do addition?
13:57:27 <fizzie> Even the opcodes that move values between registers have separate mnemonics (TAX, TXA, TAY, TYA).
13:57:29 <Sgeo_> accum + ?
13:57:49 <Sgeo_> I guess multiple registers do have a use
13:58:15 <fizzie> There's only ADC, which can add-with-carry either an immediate 8-bit value, or a byte from memory. But there's several modes for addressing memory.
14:02:37 <fizzie> 6502 code typically uses the 256 first bytes of memory as "registers", because you can access those with a 8-bit address operand. And there are indirect addressing modes, which [disclaimer: simplified] take a 8-bit memory operand, read a 16-bit value from memory at that address, and then operate on the byte pointed by that value.
14:03:04 <fizzie> There wasn't such a huge speed difference between registers and memory anyway at that point.
14:04:14 <fizzie> I seem to recall that in some derivatives there was also a register you could change that was used as the high byte of "zero-page" access.
14:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, what instruction set do you have in mind?
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14:09:35 <Sgeo_> Move things from memory to memory. Add things located in special memory addresses
14:09:48 <Sgeo_> Um, maybe an interrupt system somehow
14:10:13 <fizzie> A stack is a popular thing to have. At least in the call/ret sense.
14:10:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, so everything mmapped??
14:10:50 <Phantom_Hoover> s/??/?/
14:10:53 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, why not?
14:11:09 <Phantom_Hoover> No, that wasn't an incredulous sentence.
14:11:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It was just making sure.
14:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, move immediate to memory as well?
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14:12:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Meh, you just have to map the values 0..255 to some memory range, then you'll have all the constants you could need.
14:12:47 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, clever.
14:13:35 <fizzie> I think MIPS has a constant-0 "register"; one of the "general-purpose registers" is hardwired to value 0.
14:13:45 <oklopol> yes
14:13:49 <oklopol> r0
14:14:02 <ais523> hmm, I invented a new esolang while lying in bed this morning
14:14:09 <oklopol> that's how i invented toi
14:14:18 <ais523> the idea's to make it sub-TC, but only barely
14:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, not even in your sleep?
14:14:22 <oklopol> i woke up, and it just came to me
14:14:26 <ais523> it's expressive enough to, for instance, calculate the Ackermann function
14:14:36 <oklopol> ais523: is it as great as toi
14:14:44 <ais523> I don't know
14:14:51 <ais523> probably not, it's kind-of quirky
14:14:59 <oklopol> well tell us
14:15:02 <ais523> and probably useless, apart from as a typical eso programming challenge
14:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, has anyone created Ackermann, the language that can only compute the Ackermann function?
14:15:20 <ais523> details aren't finalised yet, but the only flow control operator is eval
14:15:49 <oklopol> quining paradigm
14:15:55 <fizzie> If you want to do "A = A+X" on the 6502 registers, you'd have to do something like "CLC; STX $42; ADC $42" (5 bytes, 8 cycles), where $42 is a suitable zero-page memory location for a temporary value. Unless you want to do it like "CLC; STX .foo+1; .foo: ADC #$00" (6 bytes, 8 cycles), but that probably doesn't make much sense.
14:16:02 <ais523> but there's a twist, to do with nested evals; if inside an eval you do another eval, the one on the inside must be no longer, and must come earlier in alphabetical order
14:16:05 <oklopol> or is that a good description in this case
14:16:10 <ais523> (with an infinite alphabet)
14:16:14 <oklopol> oh cool
14:16:45 <ais523> it's not really quining paradigm, because the operators I plan to give leave the program text you evalled lying around in memory, so you don't have to reconstruct it
14:17:07 <ais523> anyway, you can prove mathematically that all programs in this lang always halt, so it's sub-TC
14:17:17 <oklopol> well yes that's obvious
14:17:38 <oklopol> the ordering is well-founded
14:18:14 <ais523> yup
14:18:32 <oerjan> ais523: um when calculating ackermann you definitely recurse with some values longer than the original
14:18:32 <ais523> yet the restriction doesn't get in the way in any real practical sense, unless you try to create an infinite loop
14:18:35 <oklopol> or well i mean the no infinite descending chain property
14:18:42 <ais523> oerjan: the program text doesn't need to be longer
14:18:53 <oklopol> are you sure
14:19:00 <oerjan> hm...
14:19:08 <oklopol> well need to know more details
14:19:11 <ais523> well, arbitrary bignums are in the alphabet, and count as only one "letter"
14:19:23 <ais523> so you can recursively use the exact same program with just a few bignums at the start changed
14:19:32 <oklopol> i mean you will have to represent the original call as verbosely as you represent your last recursions
14:19:42 <ais523> you will, yes
14:19:44 <oklopol> wait can you return?
14:19:48 <ais523> yep
14:19:54 <oklopol> okay i misunderstood eval
14:19:59 <oklopol> so definitely not quining
14:20:05 <oklopol> or
14:20:06 <oklopol> umm
14:20:09 <oerjan> ais523: ok so you get (more than) omega^2 recursion and thus ackermann
14:20:11 <ais523> it's traditional lispy/underloady eval, not muriel-style
14:20:20 <ais523> oerjan: yes; I think you even get epsilon_0 recursion
14:20:41 <Sgeo_> Didn't I once ask if something like this was possible?
14:20:41 <ais523> but I'm less sure on that, I keep forgetting the definitions of all those really high sorts of recursion
14:21:10 <oklopol> can someone tell me what these classes are? i should probably know
14:21:22 <ais523> all I know was from one lecture I went to for fun
14:21:39 <oklopol> or i guess i should wp, i just think (hope) i'll understand them from a one-line explanation
14:21:40 <oerjan> epsilon_0 = inf { alpha | omega ^ alpha = alpha } ?
14:21:52 <ais523> and from one of the stories in gödel, escher, bach
14:21:55 <oerjan> s/inf/min/, really
14:22:01 <ais523> oerjan: I think so
14:22:35 <oerjan> ais523: i'm not sure you can get more than omega^omega, actually
14:22:47 <ais523> hmm
14:23:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Bye for now.
14:23:05 <ais523> all I remember is an example of a function that requires at least fixed-point-1 style recursion to reach
14:23:21 <ais523> what you do is, you have a string of digits, initially in binary
14:23:34 <ais523> then, you repeatedly: subtract 1, then interpret the result in the next base up
14:23:38 <oerjan> ais523: an n-length string gives you omega^n afaict
14:23:46 <oklopol> what's omega?
14:23:57 <oerjan> first infinite ordinal, aka the naturals
14:24:05 <ais523> e.g. you start with 1000, subtract 1 and get 111, interpret that as ternary, subtract 1 and get 110, interpret that as base 4, subtract 1 and get 103, interpret that as base 5, etc
14:24:08 <oklopol> oh? then i'm confused
14:24:15 <ais523> the function blows up really really quickly
14:24:25 <oklopol> no idea what omega^2 recursion is
14:24:29 <ais523> much faster than the ackermann function
14:25:04 <ais523> oerjan: it goes beyond omega^n, because you're allowed to exit from an eval and go into another one
14:25:58 <ais523> I think, at least
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14:28:10 <oerjan> oklopol: omega^2 recursion is the kind you do with ackermann. basically when you calculate A(m,n) you always recurse to something for which omega*m + n is smaller
14:28:42 <oerjan> well i'm not sure "omega^2 recursion" is the right technical term, but that's the idea
14:28:42 <ais523> oklopol: you can think of omega as being a bit like an arbitrarily high integer whose value you have to know in advance
14:28:43 <oklopol> i don't get what omega*m + n means
14:28:47 <ais523> but that's a rather poor description
14:28:54 <oklopol> well
14:28:58 <oklopol> okay sure i guess
14:29:08 <ais523> hmm, or as an integer greater than any other integer you use during the course of the calculation not defined in terms of omega
14:29:24 <ais523> a sort of "finite infinity"
14:29:31 <oklopol> could we just think of omega*m + n as (m, n)
14:29:35 <oerjan> oklopol: it's the ordinal number for the order given by m copies of the natural numbers followed by n single elements
14:29:41 <oklopol> hmm
14:29:48 <oklopol> okay
14:31:08 <ais523> oklopol: that's a decent definition when you're just dealing with omega, omega^2, etc
14:31:16 <ais523> but it starts to get confusing when you get omega^omega
14:31:17 <oklopol> so we order pairs as (m1, n1) > (m2, n2) iff m1 > m2 or (m1 = m2 and n1 > n2), and then omega^2 recursion means our pairs get smaller when we recurse
14:31:29 <oerjan> oklopol: basically for any well-founded recursive function you can define its ordinal rank recursively
14:31:47 <oerjan> oklopol: yep
14:32:16 <oerjan> or wait is that quite well-defined
14:32:21 <oklopol> hmm
14:32:29 <oklopol> how do we define its ordinal rank recursively
14:32:49 <oerjan> i'm starting to doubt it
14:33:09 <oerjan> that it's uniquely defined, that is
14:34:29 <oerjan> anyway if you have only omega recursion that's the same as primitive recursion i think. basically you have _one_ argument that needs to consistently get smaller.
14:36:11 <oklopol> w.r.t. some well-founded ordering
14:36:17 <oerjan> no
14:36:20 <oklopol> oh
14:36:23 <oerjan> wrt being a natural number
14:36:26 <oklopol> right
14:36:52 <oerjan> if the argument is in the well-founded ordering then - oh now i see
14:37:03 <oerjan> it's the well-founded ordering that has an ordinal rank
14:37:51 <oklopol> i'm starting to forget what we're doing here
14:37:52 <oklopol> :P
14:38:19 <oerjan> for any total recursive function such a well-founded ordering needs to exist, but it's not unique. and in principle you could just use the recursion depth, but that doesn't help you prove the function _is_ total without circularity
14:39:22 <oklopol> is an ordinal rank something any well-founded ordering has?
14:39:24 <oerjan> so for ackermann say, you could use A(m,n) _itself_ as your well-founded ordering but that is useless until you've proved the ackermann function is well-defined
14:39:31 <oerjan> yes i think so.
14:40:39 <oerjan> define the ordinal of an element a to be min { alpha | alpha > rank (b) for all b < a }
14:40:40 <oklopol> it occurs to me there's a colorful theory behind all this, what's its name?
14:41:09 <oklopol> elementary set theory
14:41:19 <oerjan> um if it's more than ordinals and transfinite recursion, then i'm not sure
14:41:37 <oklopol> i'm not saying i know there's a colorful theory
14:41:40 <oklopol> i mean
14:42:04 <oklopol> i'm not saying i know there is one that has been fully discovered, i'm saying i'm sensing the presense of a theory i do not know
14:42:47 <oklopol> (*c)
14:44:24 <oerjan> oklopol: the example that ais523 gave above (changing base and subtracting one) requires epsilon_0 recursion. it's significance is due to the fact that pure peano arithmetic cannot prove that function is well-defined, because peano arithmetic can only define recursive functions with ordinal strictly _less_ than epsilon_0.
14:44:37 <oklopol> today they had a seminar about textile systems and i skipped it because the last time i went i didn't understand a word :'(
14:45:06 <oerjan> *its
14:45:21 <ais523> "transfinite", that was the word I was trying to remember
14:46:00 <oerjan> oklopol: well clothes fashion is boring anyway </duck>
14:47:57 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%95%E2%82%80
14:48:14 <oklopol> basically you have two graphs, T and C, we think of the edges of T as tiles and the edges of C as colors on the tops and bottoms of the tiles. we have two graph homomorphisms t and b from T to C, bi-infinite paths in T we think of as lines of tiles, and the images of those paths with t and b we think of as the color sequences below and on top of the line
14:48:28 <oklopol> this is how much i know
14:48:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodstein%27s_theorem
14:48:48 <oerjan> (what ais523 referred to)
14:49:07 <oklopol> why "good"stein, is there a bad stein it improves on?
14:49:11 <oklopol> HAHAHAA
14:49:14 <oklopol> :DSa
14:49:19 * oklopol looks.
14:49:53 <oerjan> oklopol: careful there, you might be accused of antisemitism with such a joke
14:50:44 <oerjan> or maybe i will be for assuming it's a jewish name without checking
14:50:56 <oerjan> (wp only says he was english)
14:52:15 <oklopol> it would be hard for me to be antisemite given that i learned about jews when i was like 15
14:52:29 <oklopol> well, assuming these things usually develop early
14:52:44 <oklopol> or well i guess it could be an intellectual choice
14:53:08 <oklopol> but that would be weird too because there are basically no jews in finland
14:53:31 <oerjan> you never let them get in </ducks>
14:54:02 <fizzie> "Today, there are synagogues in Helsinki and Turku and the number of Jews is 1,200."
14:54:08 <fizzie> Go tell that to them!
14:54:16 <oklopol> there's this phd student in our uni who couldn't get to usa for a conference or something because he's from iran
14:54:17 <ais523> hmm, reminds me of a documentary I saw when I was in Canada
14:54:24 <ais523> talking about the fact that there was exactly one Jew in Afghanistan
14:54:35 <oerjan> (that's actually relevant for norway, our constitution initially forbade jews from entering the country)
14:54:45 <ais523> oerjan: ouch
14:55:04 <ais523> but then, the UK "constitution" still forbids Catholics marrying in to the Royal Family
14:55:07 <oerjan> also jesuits and catholic monks iirc
14:55:10 <ais523> IIRC the EU told them it was racist and had to change
14:55:15 <oklopol> fizzie: okay but they are still not a thing, saying there are jews in finland, to me, is like saying some people in finland like to eat only even amounts of grapes at a time.
14:55:27 <oklopol> ^ possibly the stupidest metaphor i've ever heard
14:56:15 <ais523> now I'm wondering if there /are/ people who restrict grape-eating to even numbers
14:56:21 <oklopol> well
14:56:29 <oklopol> i do at least some parity stuff with graphs
14:56:38 <fizzie> Also I wonder about "at a time", is that like they'll only stick even numbers of grapes into their mouths at once, or just they want to end up with an even total of grapes eaten during one grape-eating session?
14:56:46 <oklopol> i split the grapes in two in my mouth with alternating sides of my mouth
14:56:49 <ais523> I suppose there are people who refuse to eat grapes, and thus fulfil the grape-eating condition degenerately
14:57:02 <oklopol> fizzie: latter
14:57:23 <fizzie> ais523: "You degenerate grape-eater" is quite an insult.
14:57:39 <ais523> fizzie: wow, insults must be weird where you live
14:57:47 <oklopol> in fact it is possible that i often end up eating an even amount because i have to make my mouth sides feel symmetric
14:57:54 <oklopol> there are many things i have to do symmetrically
14:58:01 <fizzie> oklopol: What, are you a jew?!
14:58:06 <oklopol> :D
14:58:50 <ais523> on another note, I got into a discussion on Slashdot about whether it was theoretically possible for P=NP to be undecidable
14:59:16 <ais523> someone said it was possible that there was an algorithm for solving an NP-complete problem, where it was undecidable whether the algo was P-time or not
14:59:22 <ais523> which is really quite a bizarre thing to think about
14:59:23 <oklopol> not possible, but it's possible it's unprovable from whatever set of axioms we have
14:59:38 <ais523> yep, I thought it wasn't provably undecidable
14:59:56 <oklopol> things with a finite amount of inputs are never undecidable
15:00:14 <oklopol> but i guess it's clear what they mean
15:01:30 <oklopol> standard bizarre things in this area: let S be the set of numbers n such that pi in base 10 contains the sequence "7"^n, then S is decidable
15:01:55 <oerjan> yeah imagine if someone found an algorithm that seemed to always work fast, but no one could prove why it worked
15:02:00 <oklopol> even though it has infinitely many inputs and we have no idea how to actually create that algorithm
15:03:31 <oerjan> is this "contains" as in contains not as part of a larger "7"^n ?
15:03:41 <oklopol> no
15:03:49 <oklopol> otherwise it's not decidable
15:03:53 <oklopol> i mean
15:03:57 <oklopol> not trivially decidable
15:04:09 <oklopol> i mean
15:04:23 <oklopol> well for some value of trivial
15:04:39 <oerjan> so it requires allowing subsets automatically, so the set is necessarily of the form {"7"^n | n < N } for some N which might be infinity
15:04:51 <oklopol> oh and "a set S of numbers is decidable" means the language there's a tm that accepts exactly the language {1^n | n \in S}
15:05:34 <oklopol> yes, and there's an explanation that makes it seem very unbizarre
15:05:44 <oerjan> hm but it should also reject on the complement, right?
15:05:56 <oerjan> (not fail to halt)
15:06:07 <oklopol> err
15:06:09 <oklopol> sure
15:06:19 <oklopol> you don't see how that's decidable?
15:06:34 <oklopol> i didn't expect you'd fall for that one
15:06:51 <oklopol> (whether i did is a secret)
15:06:54 <oerjan> of course i do, the set is {1,...,N} for some N or all natural numbers
15:07:06 <oklopol> well right
15:07:08 <oerjan> s/1/0/
15:07:15 <oklopol> ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
15:07:25 <oklopol> your question was about my definition of accepting a set of numbers
15:07:33 <oerjan> yes
15:07:49 <oklopol> then yeah i meant a tm that always halts
15:08:01 <oerjan> because if it only needs to accept or else not halt, then i think it's also easy to find an explicit TM
15:08:16 <oerjan> just search through pi
15:08:18 <oklopol> yes, just enumerate
15:08:20 <oklopol> pi's digits
15:09:24 <ais523> oerjan: pi clearly doesn't contain infinitely many consecutive 7s
15:09:27 <ais523> as that would force it to be rational
15:09:29 <oerjan> incidentally it's extremely likely that TM works anyhow (because the set _is_ all natural numbers, so it never fails to halt)
15:09:40 <oklopol> ais523: that's not what he said
15:09:51 <ais523> oh, right
15:09:55 <oklopol> we just need S to be unbounded for N to be infinite
15:10:00 <ais523> yu
15:10:01 <ais523> *yup
15:10:50 <oklopol> oerjan: extremely likely with what probability measure exactly?!? :D
15:11:04 <oerjan> a _very_ intuitive measure
15:11:18 <oklopol> on a very intuitive space
15:11:32 <oerjan> easy as pi!
15:12:34 <oklopol> err wait
15:12:45 <oklopol> i guess you could say lebesque measure...
15:13:15 <oklopol> i mean in an intuitive sense but still
15:14:05 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_analysis
15:14:31 <oklopol> any way we "access" reals might in theory increase the probability of not having infinitely long sequences of 7's
15:17:56 <oerjan> well you can even define a measure such that with probability 1, the number contains no 7 at all
15:18:52 <oklopol> err
15:19:02 <oklopol> yes
15:19:09 <oklopol> every nonempty set has infinite measure
15:19:14 <oklopol> err
15:19:21 <oklopol> probabilities sorry let's think..asdf
15:19:30 <ais523> oerjan: fun trick maths question: given a circle with radius 1 and a random secant of it, what's the probability that the segment of the secant inside the circle has a length of at least sqrt(3)?
15:20:23 <oerjan> ("easy" way: take a uniformly selected number in [0,1], write it in base 9, then change each 7 to a 9 and reinterpret as base 10)
15:21:14 <oerjan> ais523: i think i've read about that, there are several "intuitive" ways of making the random selection with different answers, isn't it
15:21:19 <oerjan> *aren't there
15:21:21 <ais523> yes
15:21:28 <ais523> the trick is that "random secant" isn't defined
15:21:35 <ais523> and there isn't enough information to be able to define it
15:21:59 * oklopol googles secant...
15:22:38 <ais523> oklopol: line that intersects a circle twice
15:23:08 <oklopol> right, i was just wondering about segment of secant inside the blah because i thought the secant already means that segment
15:23:21 <ais523> I was wondering if the secant was the whole line or not, so I put that in just to be sure
15:26:36 <AnMaster> aaaargh. hate being put on hold...
15:26:43 <Sgeo_> I think I'll go build my NAND gate now
15:27:47 <oklopol> so we have two alphabets P and T, and we have a function f from P to T. we have a set D \subset P^(2,2) (2x2 squares of P's); we say a local picture language is a language L' = {X \in P^(m,n) | for all subsquares S of X that are of size 2x2, we have that S \in D}; we define recognizable picture languages as images of local picture languages, L is recognizable iff L = f(L') for some local L'
15:28:02 * oklopol felt like it was time for some definitions.
15:29:02 <oklopol> (this is sort of a finite version of sofic shifts)
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15:30:47 <oklopol> it was proven with a neat tentacle construction that the "language of trees", that is the language where T = arrows left/right/up/down and we require that a picture have no cycles, is a recognizable picture language
15:31:00 <oklopol> in 1998 iirc
15:31:25 <oklopol> in 2006 the same author (reinhardt) proved that the language of directed acyclic graphs is also recognizable
15:32:07 <oklopol> this fact can be used to prove so called deterministic picture languages are recognizable
15:33:04 <oklopol> maybe that's all for now, i should eat something ->
15:33:22 <oklopol> also quasiperiodicity has at least three different definitions
15:37:56 <oerjan> perhaps there is a quasiperiodic sequence of them
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15:42:59 <oklopol> oerjan: you don't have an opinion on what the definition should be? :P
15:57:47 <oerjan> for that i would have to remember at least one
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16:07:40 <Sgeo_> Ah, tradeoffs
16:07:50 <Sgeo_> Digital adder: Fast, but very, very large
16:08:00 <Sgeo_> Analog adder: Slow, and prone to errors, but small
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16:13:55 <oklopol> oerjan: well not necessarily, but yeah might be useful
16:14:17 <oklopol> i mean given that there are three different definitions...
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16:16:07 <cpressey> Death adder: fast and small and poisonous. Watch out!
16:38:40 <Sgeo_> My NAND gate uses 7 awsistors
16:44:47 <cpressey> I've heard omega described as "the largest finite integer"
16:45:06 <cpressey> I'm not sure if they were trying to be funny
16:45:50 <cpressey> It kind of works, though
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16:59:30 <AnMaster> <Sgeo_> Digital adder: Fast, but very, very large <-- eh no
16:59:54 <Sgeo_> eh I'm not talking about RL circuitry
17:00:15 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, a simple adder with no carry forwarding thingy network should be quite simple
17:00:28 <AnMaster> just a lot of full adders hooked up to each other
17:00:30 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, ^
17:00:37 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, RL?
17:00:52 <Sgeo_> Even one logic gate is very large
17:00:59 <AnMaster> just 4 transistors
17:01:03 <AnMaster> for a NAND
17:01:20 <Sgeo_> I';ve sort of done two inverse gates here >.>
17:01:20 <AnMaster> and well, they tend to be in the µm scale or nm nowdays maybe
17:01:43 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, what do you mean RL though?
17:01:52 <Sgeo_> AnMaster, as in, this is virtual circuitry
17:01:56 <Sgeo_> In Active Worlds.
17:01:59 <AnMaster> oh that
17:02:00 <AnMaster> meh
17:02:50 <Sgeo_> 4 transistors for a NAND is something I should note though. I'm using 7 awsistors, and recently realized that awsistors are very similar to transistors...
17:02:55 <Sgeo_> So I may be doing it wrong.
17:08:43 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, I'm talking about CMOS though
17:08:49 <AnMaster> I doubt you have two variants for it
17:08:57 <AnMaster> for TTL, who knows
17:09:01 <AnMaster> I don't know at least
17:17:09 <cpressey> http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Electronics-Forrest-Mims/dp/0945053282
17:17:45 <cpressey> Any 2-input gate can be built with 2 BJTs. ("Normal" transistors.)
17:18:00 <cpressey> Except *maybe* XOR. I don't recall.
17:18:47 <cpressey> "AND" just puts them in series, "OR" in parallel. "NOT" you get "for free" by choosing where to get the output from.
17:20:13 <Sgeo_> Except here I'm doing it twice
17:20:38 <Sgeo_> For NAND, I'm putting the NOTs in series, and the .. whatevers, in parallel
17:20:50 <Sgeo_> So yeah, a bit wasteful
17:20:54 <cpressey> http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~mssz/CompOrg/Figure1.16-NANDcircuit.gif
17:21:51 <cpressey> I doubt that has a very direct relationship to how it would look in awcircuitry, but that is all there is, in TTL.
17:23:05 <Sgeo_> Um, the transistor symbols.. I don't get that
17:27:26 <cpressey> Well, the wire on the left is the base -- current on it controls current flowing between the other two wires.
17:28:19 <cpressey> If there's current on both of (A) and (B), current will flow from +Vcc to ground, and you won't get any on (X).
17:28:48 <cpressey> But if there is no current on either (A) or (B), the "path" from +Vcc to ground is "blocked", and so you'll see current at (X).
17:29:17 <cpressey> ("path" and "blocked" don't really need quotes, I geuss.)
17:30:51 <Sgeo_> Well, NOT isn't quite free, at least in the model I'm using
17:31:02 <Sgeo_> Which I'm starting to think is a really sucky model
17:31:47 <cpressey> Sgeo_: Have you looked at neural models? They seem closer to what you're working with sounds like.
17:32:02 <Sgeo_> cpressey, no :/
17:33:36 <cpressey> Each neuron has a threshhold. It receives inputs which increase its "energy level" until that threshhold. Then it empties itself into whatever neighbours its connected to. (This is of course a very idealized model, not much like a real neuron)
17:33:59 <cpressey> But if you add inhibitors to them (basically NOT), they're universal
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17:34:55 <cpressey> This is from Minsky's book
17:35:23 <cpressey> http://www.amazon.com/Computation-Finite-Infinite-Machines-Automatic/dp/0131655639
17:37:39 <cpressey> I love how, if I accidentally press ctrl-S in a terminal, it looks like everything froze. Some things die hard. I also wonder who really uses Caps Lock, or overwrite mode, these days.
17:38:04 <cpressey> This observation will of course be greeted with cries of "Hey *I* use overwrite mode"
17:38:07 <Deewiant> I use overwrite mode to write Befunge
17:38:40 <Deewiant> I also would often like to use Ctrl-S if it were bindable to something else
17:39:30 <Deewiant> Ctrl-S itself is too often used by programs so I have it disabled
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17:45:02 <pikhq> I hate Ctrl-S.
17:45:07 <pikhq> Mostly because S is next to A
17:45:12 <pikhq> And I use Ctrl-A a lot.
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18:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay, I have /home on a separate partition now.
18:57:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm one of the cool kids!
18:59:01 <olsner> oh no, are you one of those guys now
18:59:36 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: sorry, you've become That Guy
18:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> That Guy?
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19:10:46 <CakeProphet> so I'm wondering how I can combine an OO-style Actor model
19:10:51 <CakeProphet> with Haskell's IO/STM monads.
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19:19:32 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Don't
19:21:25 <Mathnerd314> CakeProphet: http://sulzmann.blogspot.com/2008/10/actors-with-multi-headed-receive.html
19:22:39 <Mathnerd314> and the package http://hackage.haskell.org/package/actor
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19:27:18 <CakeProphet> pikhq: Why not?
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19:34:00 <CakeProphet> I'm just wondering why I should bother implementing this whole library
19:34:11 <CakeProphet> er, using this library, declarating its typeclasses, etc
19:34:17 <CakeProphet> when I could just use channel primitives.
19:36:19 <Mathnerd314> read the paper: http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~sulzmann/publications/multi-headed-actors.pdf
19:36:25 <Mathnerd314> they have a nice syntax
19:36:29 <CakeProphet> current am
19:37:16 <CakeProphet> I'm trying to understand what it means by multi-headed.
19:37:28 <Mathnerd314> multiple messages at once
19:37:45 <Mathnerd314> that is, receiving them
19:40:45 <CakeProphet> ah okay.
19:40:57 <CakeProphet> couldn't that be implemented with... tuples?
19:41:05 <CakeProphet> or lists?
19:41:35 <Mathnerd314> did you read the paper yet? the first example shows why multi-headed is cool
19:41:37 <CakeProphet> and a regular case
19:43:05 <oklopol> i wish oerjan was here
19:43:31 <oklopol> are you talking about receiving head
19:44:06 <CakeProphet> alright, it looks at least interesting. But I can't help but think it's unecessary for what I'm doing. Do you know anything about the efficiency of the approach?
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19:46:02 <CakeProphet> ah I see.
19:46:11 <CakeProphet> so you can receive messages composed by multiple actors?
19:48:18 <CakeProphet> hmmm, no, not what I was thinking
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19:49:59 <CakeProphet> ah, actually yes that is what I was thinking.
19:50:18 <CakeProphet> that's pretty interesting. I still can't think of what I would need it for.
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20:01:46 <CakeProphet> I guess having multiple-heads makes "handshaking" easier.
20:01:59 <Warrior`> yes
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20:14:31 <AnMaster> Warning: call to signal(13, 0x1)
20:14:31 <AnMaster> Blocked: call to setlocale(6, "")
20:14:33 <AnMaster> Warning: call to rand()
20:14:33 <AnMaster> Warning: call to rand()
20:14:33 <AnMaster> Warning: call to rand()
20:14:39 <AnMaster> (process:8103): Gtk-WARNING **: Locale not supported by C library.
20:14:39 <AnMaster> Using the fallback 'C' locale.
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20:14:44 <AnMaster> vlc told me all of these
20:14:47 <AnMaster> wtf is up with it?
20:15:57 <CakeProphet> vlc is havng an existential breakdown.
20:16:01 <CakeProphet> obviously.
20:18:11 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, hah
20:18:22 <AnMaster> Blocked: call to unsetenv("DBUS_ACTIVATION_ADDRESS")
20:18:22 <AnMaster> Blocked: call to unsetenv("DBUS_ACTIVATION_BUS_TYPE")
20:18:27 <AnMaster> now those it didn't say before
20:20:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: Why are you tracing it?
20:22:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm not afaik
20:22:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is just telling me that all the time
20:22:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, if I was tracing it I would use strace
20:22:34 <AnMaster> and I'm not
20:22:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, how do I turn off the tracing?
20:22:49 <Warrior`> is there a way to determine the max cells used by a bf program?
20:23:02 <AnMaster> Warrior`, yes, solving the halting program I think
20:23:03 <pikhq> Warrior`: Halting problem says "no".
20:23:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Beats me.
20:23:19 <AnMaster> Warrior`, so by using an oracle machine, yes
20:23:46 <Warrior`> hmm...some searched led me to this
20:23:48 <Warrior`> http://www.rohitab.com/discuss/index.php?showtopic=36344&view=findpost&p=10077035
20:24:25 <Warrior`> but the code is confusing
20:24:49 <AnMaster> you could run and check
20:24:58 <AnMaster> and if it halts and don't depend on IO
20:25:02 <AnMaster> well then you know
20:25:14 <AnMaster> it is only by running the code and checking it that you find this out though
20:25:23 <Warrior`> hmm...i will have to think about it deeply
20:26:20 <AnMaster> not really
20:26:23 <AnMaster> trivial
20:26:38 <AnMaster> at least if you already know the area
20:29:51 <Warrior`> .not much..so have to know the background knowledge
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20:51:49 <cpressey> So very, very like a while.
20:51:54 <cpressey> Whale.
20:52:02 <cpressey> So very, very etc.
20:58:36 -!- AnMaster has set topic: very while(Very like a whale) { More so than a real whale. } | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:58:39 <AnMaster> cpressey, :P
20:59:54 <CakeProphet> ha.
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21:37:13 <zzo38> This is idiot of mahjong: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_11/idiot_of_mahjong.jpg
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21:37:56 <zzo38> Whoever says discard the red five is idiot. This is a complete hand worth at least 4 han.
21:38:55 <zzo38> And what about the No.5126278? 3 for ryanpeikou + 2 for iipeikou does not even add up to seven. In addition, this hand has neither.
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21:39:43 <AnMaster> zzo38, ...?
21:40:22 <zzo38> AnMaster: You look...?
21:40:54 <AnMaster> at that link
21:41:00 <zzo38> !
21:41:03 <AnMaster> but I don't get it
21:41:44 <zzo38> Look at message number 5126278 for one thing, that one you might see one thing that is wrong right away. But there are more things wrong with that message and also with the other messages
21:42:02 <zzo38> O no, it is correct
21:42:19 <zzo38> It does add up correctly, but it is still wrong. Iipeikou is worth only 1 point.
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21:44:54 <zzo38> (In case you don't know mahjong, I will tell you, ryanpeikou means you have iipeikou twice. Generally the scoring is 1 for each iipeikou + 1 extra for ryanpeikou, adding to to 3 in total for ryanpeikou.)
21:46:54 <zzo38> Also, I found a QBASIC code which is very bad. It uses subroutines where ON GOTO would do much better, and duplicates code a lot where subroutines would have worked better. In addition, there is many useless line labels with dumb names, and various other problems as well.
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21:47:13 <zzo38> In addition, the program does not even work. It often crashes due to stack overflow.
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21:48:46 <fizzie> Re "<AnMaster> ... <-- even my old old nokia can use java. Not sure about applets though, but I think it might", if you mean a J2ME-enabled phone, that's very different from real Java (perhaps not language-wise, but library-wise) and in any case can only run J2'3-specific "midlets".
21:49:50 <fizzie> (Not to mention that Nokia's J2ME VM used to be very sucky.)
21:50:59 <fizzie> "J2'3" is also a nice typo for J2ME.
21:51:52 <zzo38> How many *bad codes* have you seen?
21:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Bad codes?
21:54:10 <zzo38> Bad programming codes
21:54:23 <zzo38> There are a lot of bad codes in the user notes in the PHP documentation
21:57:44 <Phantom_Hoover> By "programming codes" do you mean source code?
21:58:29 <zzo38> Yes
21:58:47 <Phantom_Hoover> There's tonnes of bad code.
21:59:20 <cpressey> Well, there's bad code, and then there's, like, AMAZINGLY AWFUL code.
21:59:48 * Sgeo_ wonder which describes the code that he tends to write
21:59:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, there's tonnes of both.
22:00:46 <zzo38> When I write codes, some people say it is bad but other people say it is good. And then, sometimes I write things which are obviously wrong when I look at it the next day
22:01:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm
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22:01:44 <cpressey> Example code on the internet (forum responses and such) tends to be bad because it tends to be untested. There's a few exceptions, of course.
22:01:59 <cpressey> But it tends not to be AMAZINGLY AWFUL.
22:02:04 <AnMaster> <cpressey> Well, there's bad code, and then there's, like, AMAZINGLY AWFUL code. <-- tdwtf?
22:02:53 <AnMaster> cpressey, "AMAZINGLY AWFUL" code tends to be tested
22:03:24 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:03:43 <cpressey> AnMaster: Tested, only nominally. But it does tend to be in production, yes.
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22:05:42 <zzo38> The bad QBASIC program I refer to is a game called "WRY HUMOR". The codes is not even consistent!! In addition, some of the text it contains is like this: " Arachind - An spider like organism with 4 legs" and " Well anyway you get eaten by a grizzly bear for the stupidest reason you could ever think of... (This DOEN'T mean I'm going to tell you!)"
22:06:24 <zzo38> It has line labels named igsdfgjid564: and adizzzermpopopainloasdasaop186: and zzzdadggsdfskevindfmainloop191: and none of them are ever used elsewhere in the program.
22:06:24 <AnMaster> cpressey, indeed
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22:07:35 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, they have weird taste in metasyntactic variables?
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22:08:33 <AnMaster> zzo38, okay the real wtf is that they wrote "An spider"
22:08:35 <AnMaster> clearly
22:08:46 <AnMaster> (if you don't get the joke there is nothing I can do to help you)
22:08:47 <Sgeo_> Is a program that runs a game that doesn't allow puzzles to be updated while the game is running "amazingly awful"?
22:09:13 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, you completely missed the point
22:09:18 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, this is code wise
22:09:20 <AnMaster> not UI wise
22:09:37 <cpressey> Seems to be both in this case
22:09:46 <AnMaster> well sure
22:09:50 <AnMaster> but Sgeo_'s example
22:09:50 <Sgeo_> There's one function in my code that has way too many anonymous functions and is thus too large
22:10:04 <AnMaster> anonymous funcs?
22:10:08 <AnMaster> like lambdas?
22:10:14 <Sgeo_> Large lambdas
22:10:29 <AnMaster> so refactor the code
22:10:30 <Phantom_Hoover> What differentiates those from small lambdas?
22:10:30 <cpressey> Ten- or twenty-page-long lambdas
22:10:43 <AnMaster> cpressey, *shudder*
22:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, which code? The robot thing?
22:11:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:11:24 -!- augur has joined.
22:11:38 <Sgeo_> "robot thing"? If by that, you mean the game
22:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I might. I'm not sure.
22:14:36 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:15:31 <zzo38> WRY also has inconsistent spacing and indent, and here is some other part of the codes: http://sprunge.us/EFUj
22:16:16 <zzo38> Now you can see how dumb it is.
22:16:31 <cpressey> zzo38: Where did you find this gem?
22:16:55 <zzo38> Some archive of QBASIC programs. Most files there are not that bad, but some are, and this is one of them
22:17:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder where Certia is.
22:17:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Or, indeed, what its numbers are like.
22:18:02 <cpressey> Well, pressable, apparently.
22:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course.
22:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Certia appears to be a Finnish company.
22:19:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently they make numbers.
22:21:16 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
22:21:27 <oklopol> they... make numbers?
22:21:33 <oklopol> that sounds awesome
22:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, they claim to be some sort of financial thing.
22:22:21 <oklopol> oh
22:22:27 <Phantom_Hoover> They must make numbers that are better than the competition.
22:22:29 <oklopol> that sounds much boringer.
22:22:59 <oklopol> i thought they were like you know if you need a cool number for like a safe combination in your movie or something
22:23:04 <Phantom_Hoover> You could probably make a living off patenting large primes, come to think of it.
22:23:04 <oklopol> then you'd call them
22:23:25 <oklopol> and they'd make a number that fits the atmosphere of the movie
22:23:48 <oklopol> yeah i didn't want to reference that aspect because it's been done to death
22:24:01 <oklopol> (these things are very easy to kill)
22:24:13 <oklopol> anyway i should go to slayp
22:24:17 <fizzie> They'd be all "sorry, we're out of numbers right now, but we'll be getting more next Tuesday from our number mines".
22:24:29 <oklopol> number mines :--)
22:24:45 <fizzie> Everything comes from mines.
22:24:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Refined from ore?
22:25:23 <oklopol> numbore
22:25:27 <fizzie> Yes, they refine primes from large composites extracted from the earth.
22:25:32 <oklopol> haha
22:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> That is what I was thinking.
22:25:39 <oklopol> i love it
22:25:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes they put failed mathematicans to slave in the mines
22:25:53 <AnMaster> mathematicians*
22:26:01 <oklopol> lllllllllol at primes refined from composites
22:26:28 <fizzie> Are there failed mathematicians? I thought they were just suboptimally succeeded ones.
22:26:33 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, no, the mathematicians are used to refine the composites.
22:26:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes. I said the failed ones
22:27:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes indeed
22:27:14 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, ah.
22:27:16 <oklopol> composite numbers composite numbers composite numbers composite numbers
22:27:54 <fizzie> Combustible numbers.
22:28:03 <AnMaster> oh yes, mine gas
22:28:07 <AnMaster> well known hazard
22:28:21 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:28:36 <oklopol> err there aren't any sort of by-products when you refine primes out of composites
22:28:42 <oklopol> that's weird
22:28:48 <oklopol> hmm
22:28:50 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh there are
22:28:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, decimal points
22:28:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Then there's the problem of ending up with complexes.
22:29:03 <oklopol> what if we actually extract *reals*
22:29:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and that yes
22:29:05 <oklopol> oh
22:29:07 <oklopol> fuck you AnMaster
22:29:16 <oklopol> anyway we could refine rationals out of them
22:29:29 <oklopol> you know hone the edges a bit
22:29:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, no, they refine an integer then, and hit it with a hammer
22:29:36 <AnMaster> so it cracks
22:29:38 <oklopol> or maybe more file than hone
22:29:44 <AnMaster> you get two complementary fractions
22:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> How about Gaussian primes?
22:30:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what about them?
22:30:35 <oklopol> what's the definition of a gaussian prime
22:30:39 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:30:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably you refine them from Gaussian integers.
22:30:51 <oklopol> i can probably guess
22:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, they're like primes, but complex.
22:31:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes they end up as one of the components of the gaussian integer pellets
22:31:30 <AnMaster> so you sort them out from them
22:31:53 <AnMaster> by refining indeed
22:32:09 <Phantom_Hoover> And you can split a Gaussian integer into 2 integers.
22:32:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, anyway I never got "<oklopol> fuck you AnMaster"
22:32:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, plus an i
22:32:28 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, OK, you get some i left over.
22:32:29 <AnMaster> one of the halfs get an i
22:32:41 <AnMaster> that you need to complement away
22:32:48 <AnMaster> a process similar to oxidation
22:33:02 -!- tombom_ has joined.
22:33:08 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i was just wondering whether it's the natural definition or whether it was some sort of pseudodefinition. which was a bit stupid i guess.
22:33:35 <oklopol> i mean for instance you might for some reason want primes to be gaussian primes
22:33:39 <CakeProphet> filebin down?
22:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, lone is are unstable.
22:33:44 <oklopol> in which case i have no idea how you'd define them
22:33:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, lone?
22:33:53 <oklopol> well
22:33:55 <oklopol> hmm
22:33:56 <AnMaster> oh i:s
22:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know why they would be.
22:34:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well yes
22:34:04 <oklopol> or does that happen to give them actually
22:34:08 -!- hiato has joined.
22:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> They tend to collapse into a real.
22:34:18 <oklopol> yeah no
22:34:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, _real_ly?
22:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, primes of the form 4n+3 are Gaussian primes.
22:34:52 <oklopol> characterization on wp says only primes of some form are gaussian
22:34:54 <oklopol> yeah
22:34:58 <oklopol> that one
22:35:00 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, no, but it sounds gooc.
22:35:06 <Phantom_Hoover> s/gooc/good/
22:35:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ... you didn't get my joke?
22:35:29 * Phantom_Hoover facepalms
22:35:34 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, not collapse, decay
22:35:38 <Phantom_Hoover> As much for not getting it as the pun.
22:35:56 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
22:35:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hah
22:36:03 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, hi
22:36:15 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:36:23 <Gregor-P> 'lo
22:36:29 <oklopol> hi Gregor-P, how many fingers am i holding up
22:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Lo, it is Gregor-P!
22:36:45 <zzo38> -pi/2
22:36:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, 3+4i.
22:36:55 <Phantom_Hoover> A Gaussian prime!
22:37:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not !?
22:37:30 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's because of the UK keyboard layout.
22:37:39 <Phantom_Hoover> is next to ! when you have shift on.
22:38:40 <oklopol> so hmm, its length is 5 so if you had two gaussians multiplying to it, one would have |length| = 5 and one |len| = 1, proving it's a prime
22:39:25 <zzo38> Do you like GNU long options? I prefer short options
22:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, they're all right.
22:40:03 <oklopol> zzo38: what do you think quasiperiodicity should mean?
22:40:08 <zzo38> No, I don't like GNU long options. I like to use short options
22:40:12 <zzo38> oklopol: I don't know
22:40:30 <oklopol> why doesn't anyone have a strong opinion on this
22:40:34 <oklopol> let's see what wp sayd
22:40:36 <oklopol> says
22:40:45 <zzo38> oklopol: Maybe it is like periodicity that it is a different kind changes sometimes? I don't know
22:41:10 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
22:41:13 <ehirdiphone> What did Knuth announce?
22:41:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn, that's what I meant to ask
22:41:36 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, do you know?
22:41:38 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: pikhq:
22:42:02 <pikhq> I don't have X ATM.
22:42:03 <oklopol> http://www.answers.com/topic/quasiperiodic-tiling <<< ah, great idea, don't define it at all
22:42:07 <oklopol> no one gets mad!
22:42:12 <pikhq> Also, the announcement doesn't happen for another few hours.
22:42:15 <ehirdiphone> cpressey:
22:42:21 <oklopol> hoooooooooray wp
22:42:22 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Oh.
22:42:27 <pikhq> It's only 2:41 PM pacific time.
22:42:29 <ehirdiphone> How many? Dammit.
22:42:36 <oklopol> wait maybe that's not newest wp entry let's check actual wp
22:42:41 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: *clattering of fine china* Hi!
22:42:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could rebuild from inside X
22:43:08 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Also, what sort of tone did he use when saying he'd announce something?
22:43:12 <ehirdiphone> Good? Bad?
22:43:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not when you're rebuilding dependencies of most everything on X11.
22:43:42 <cpressey> "Earth-shattering" is all I heard.
22:43:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, dude I went modular X while running non-modular X
22:43:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, on gentoo
22:43:59 <ehirdiphone> My bet: Good - he's making a new typesetting system; bad - disease, TAOCP being handed over to so
22:44:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, this was inside konsole even
22:44:07 <ehirdiphone> meone else or cancelled
22:44:12 <pikhq> You're crazy. I don't want things to break.
22:44:21 <ehirdiphone> One or the other.
22:44:27 <ehirdiphone> Good or bad.
22:44:31 <Gregor-P> He's proved P!=NP
22:44:31 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Maybe he sold TeX to Oracle.
22:44:38 <zzo38> Some people say some of my codes also bad http://sprunge.us/ajHX they said the body of the argopt_par is the most obscure C codes they ever seen. But it is not obscure. It is not IOCCC.
22:44:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, unlikely, same binary
22:44:48 <ehirdiphone> Gregor-NP: Really?
22:44:49 <AnMaster> already running
22:44:51 <oklopol> zzo38: i'm not sure what you mean by different kind changes, can you be more precise, assuming we have points, neighborhoods and jumps and a point is periodic if it jumps back to its original spot after a finite amount of jumps (jumps are deterministic)
22:44:53 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Or he could be announcing the immediate release of the entirety of TAOCP.
22:45:02 <AnMaster> <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Maybe he sold TeX to Oracle. <-- or he went open office!
22:45:09 <zzo38> oklopol: I don't really know. I just made up something
22:45:20 <cpressey> I still think he's going to spill the beans on what *really* happened to Dijkstra.
22:45:21 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Well. No.
22:45:30 <ehirdiphone> Earth shattering implies exciting o
22:45:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: The whole point of this is that the ABI of a fundamental library changed and I don't want runtime linker oddities.
22:45:33 <oklopol> zzo38: you don't really need to know anything to be able to explain what you mean, but okay :)
22:45:33 <ehirdiphone> I think
22:45:36 <ehirdiphone> Not death
22:45:37 <AnMaster> <cpressey> I still think he's going to spill the beans on what *really* happened to Dijkstra. <-- what are you talking about?
22:45:44 <zzo38> I think TeX is not a bad thing
22:46:01 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: "I have finished TAoCP. Published immediately."
22:46:02 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Lone gunman? Ha!
22:46:13 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Doubt.
22:46:23 <pikhq> Not likely, no.
22:46:33 <pikhq> It'd involve him writing a few orders of magnitude faster.
22:46:34 <ehirdiphone> I bet major tex revision or new typesetting system
22:46:43 <olsner> http://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/ :(
22:46:53 <pikhq> Most likely.
22:47:04 <Phantom_Hoover> ehirdiphone, BORING.
22:47:14 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Dude: TeX.
22:47:16 <zzo38> Some people have said my program Icoruma is like TeX. But it is different and has different uses
22:47:18 <ehirdiphone> olsner: My reddit :3
22:47:19 <AnMaster> <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Lone gunman? Ha! <-- what?
22:47:20 <pikhq> Praise be unto TeX.
22:47:24 <AnMaster> I was joking :p
22:47:26 <AnMaster> I love tex
22:47:30 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Just...
22:47:32 <Phantom_Hoover> For "Earth-shattering" he basically needs P!=NP.
22:47:33 <ehirdiphone> The...
22:47:37 <ehirdiphone> *headdesk*
22:47:41 <zzo38> TeX is not bad thing though
22:47:43 <pikhq> zzo38: Like TeX in design philosophy, not in particular details.
22:47:53 <AnMaster> zzo38, no need to repea
22:47:55 <AnMaster> repeat
22:47:58 <olsner> yeah, maybe he dis/proved P=NP or something... that'd be cool
22:48:08 <ehirdiphone> Plain tex ftw
22:48:24 <zzo38> pikhq: OK. I suppose maybe it is, but I wouldn't know because I didn't know much about TeX when I made Icoruma
22:48:27 <ehirdiphone> Fuck latex :P
22:48:33 <ehirdiphone> In both senses!
22:48:38 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, disagree, meh
22:48:44 <AnMaster> well in at least one sense
22:48:45 <pikhq> "I have created a true Turing machine." That'd be awesome.
22:48:55 <cpressey> olsner: He so doesn't seem the kind of researcher to be working on that problem, though.
22:48:55 <ehirdiphone> Do you deny the knuth?
22:48:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, a true UTM or just TM?
22:48:57 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: In both senses of both words and also of the ":P" sign senses?
22:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely we'd have noticed.
22:48:59 <pikhq> Sorry, true Universal ...
22:49:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: UTM.
22:49:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, ouch
22:49:14 <pikhq> He got an infinite spool of tape he found at the hardware store.
22:49:15 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: "I have proved... The Bible!"
22:49:15 <pikhq> :P
22:49:21 <ehirdiphone> crickets
22:49:23 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: XD
22:49:28 <ehirdiphone> "...=NP?"
22:49:32 <ehirdiphone> crickets
22:49:56 <zzo38> Prove the Bible? What about the Bible? The Bible is simply a collection of various old books compiled together.
22:50:05 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I have proven crickets != NP !
22:50:10 <oklopol> prove that it's the word of god
22:50:15 <zzo38> Some people disagree on some details of how the Bible is compiled together
22:50:21 <oklopol> yeah
22:50:27 <oklopol> but no one disagrees on the fact it's the word of god
22:50:27 <ehirdiphone> And TRYE
22:50:29 <zzo38> oklopol: You can't prove that! You can't really disprove that either though, I guess
22:50:29 <AnMaster> or
22:50:33 <ehirdiphone> * TRUE
22:50:35 <oklopol> yeah you can't
22:50:38 <oklopol> but truth isn't about proof
22:50:40 <AnMaster> he become allergic to electricity
22:50:41 <AnMaster> anyway
22:50:42 <cpressey> Well, Knuth can.
22:50:47 <AnMaster> considering it was a some TeX conference
22:50:54 <AnMaster> it is likely to be TeX related
22:50:55 <AnMaster> no?
22:50:58 <ehirdiphone> God existing is an independent statement
22:51:01 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Nah
22:51:08 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no?
22:51:09 <ehirdiphone> Basically a gathering of knuth fans
22:51:11 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: Yes it is independent statement
22:51:15 <ehirdiphone> More likely though
22:51:20 <AnMaster> hm
22:51:21 <ehirdiphone> But not >.5
22:51:33 <ehirdiphone> > .5 prob
22:51:34 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, >.5?
22:51:36 <AnMaster> ah
22:51:53 <zzo38> What do *you* think about the argopt_par codes? Do you think these codes is obscure or do you think IOCCC is obscure?
22:52:12 <AnMaster> zzo38, I have never heard of the first
22:52:18 <oklopol> zzo38: i thought they looked pretty obscure at a glimpse
22:52:21 <ehirdiphone> So apparently the unit doesn't trust me with overthecounter stuff. pikhq! Woe with me.
22:52:36 <Phantom_Hoover> "Woe is me", surely?
22:52:36 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, overthecounter stuff?
22:52:41 <zzo38> AnMaster: http://sprunge.us/ajHX
22:52:48 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: That's a liability measure.
22:53:18 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, it makes no sense to me, if tht helps.
22:53:21 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Hydrocortisone cream or however you spell it. It's steroidal, must be DEADLY.
22:53:35 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: What part makes no sense to you?
22:53:36 <pikhq> If you get fucked up in any way and they let you take OTC drugs on your own, they could quite possibly get sued to hell and back.
22:53:36 <ehirdiphone> (I have eczma and a pollen allergy.)
22:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, all of it.
22:54:02 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, uhu
22:54:06 <AnMaster> night
22:54:06 <ehirdiphone> They haven't found it but a close miss and they mumbled about hydrocortisone before - long story
22:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not IOCCC obscure, though.
22:54:08 <oklopol> ehirdiphone: well you might eat it
22:54:24 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Do you understand the comments?
22:54:26 <pikhq> Which is not to say they have any reason to not say "Okay, apply it in front of us", because this is the way reasonable people deal with the legal department being a bunch of paranoid maniacs.
22:54:35 <ehirdiphone> I need it to stop my skin exploding in pain anyway
22:54:38 <pikhq> Of course, then again, these are not reasonable people.
22:55:01 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: They wanted to get it written up by a doctor. ...Like they want to do with PARACETAMOL.
22:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I haven't time to read it thoroughly.
22:55:17 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: ... Wait, they wanted to get it *written up*?
22:55:25 <ehirdiphone> "We must write up THIS SOAP. It is medical."
22:55:30 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Yep.
22:55:38 <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple
22:55:46 <pikhq> At *most* they should demand consent from one of your parents.
22:55:56 <Sgeo_> I thought paracetamol was not OTC in UK? Or at least, that's what I thought someone said in here?
22:56:00 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: All the comments are at the top
22:56:04 <ehirdiphone> It is.
22:56:08 <pikhq> Which, I presume, would be quite easy.
22:56:11 <ehirdiphone> Melatonin isn't
22:56:17 <ehirdiphone> !hc
22:56:22 <ehirdiphone> !hc x
22:56:23 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, why are you so concerned?
22:56:26 <ehirdiphone> !he x
22:56:27 <EgoBot> `x
22:56:31 <ehirdiphone> Ffg
22:56:32 <pikhq> "Hey, ehird'smother? Yeah, y'mind him taking hydrocortisone cream? No? Okay."
22:56:35 <HackEgo> No output.
22:56:55 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I am just interested what some people opinion are. I suppose people who do not understand C codes it can be confusing that nobody can understand.
22:56:56 <ehirdiphone> !he addquote <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple
22:56:56 <EgoBot> `addquote <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple
22:56:58 <HackEgo> 192|<zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple
22:57:28 <ehirdiphone> Best phrasing of that quote ever.
22:57:44 <zzo38> It isn't my quote at first I just rewrote it
22:57:46 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Did I mention I have to go to bed at 10pm? Sigh.
22:57:52 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Ouch.
22:57:58 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: And made it AWESOME.
22:58:04 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: OK.
22:58:07 <oklopol> can i see the original
22:58:09 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Then up at 7... pain...
22:58:29 <zzo38> oklopol: I don't know how to find the original right now
22:58:31 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: Google "all progress depends on unreasonable man"
22:58:40 <oklopol> !google all progress depends on unreasonable man
22:58:41 <EgoBot> http://google.com/search?q=all+progress+depends+on+unreasonable+man
22:58:42 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: "Early to bed early to rise", eh?
22:58:59 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Shut up Franklin.
22:59:09 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: And if they find you have an iPhone, they'll eat it?
22:59:10 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:59:11 <oklopol> ah okay
22:59:32 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Confiscate and probably discipline and monitor closer.
22:59:39 <oklopol> zzo38 left out the part where the reasonable people adapt
22:59:49 <oklopol> i assume that was what made it awesome
23:00:03 <ehirdiphone> just everything
23:00:31 <oklopol> now the reasonability is a bit of a non sequitur in the beginning.. wait, i guess it's not a sequitur if it's before?
23:01:03 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Oh, and they have the audacity to give me "home"work while locked up here.
23:01:14 <oklopol> what kind of homework
23:01:15 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: How inane?
23:01:18 <oklopol> is it about symbolic dynamics
23:01:25 <oklopol> because i know a bit about that stuff
23:01:29 <oklopol> i could help you
23:01:40 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: "Find the area of this shape —GCSE"
23:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> ehirdiphone, ugh.
23:02:10 <pikhq> Oh, the busywork that they could've reasonably taught to a 5 year old.
23:02:11 <oklopol> use the dirac measure
23:02:13 <oklopol> and that's really easy
23:02:36 <ehirdiphone> Which I fail surprisingly often at because I'm not given a calculator and mental arithmetic is so tedious that I cut corners.
23:02:50 <pikhq> Take the integral. Smart enough to impress, stupid enough that they'll know what it is.
23:03:20 <ehirdiphone> Don't be retarded
23:03:30 <pikhq> ... Oh, right. Most people don't know calculus.
23:03:32 <oklopol> integrals are hard, much easier to use the definition of lebesque measures directly
23:03:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ehirdiphone, wait, why do they need to give you GCSE questions?
23:03:42 <pikhq> If you will excuse me, I'm going to go be depressed.
23:03:59 <ehirdiphone> The only half decent teacher is the IT one that travels in here on Tuesdays. Who can, you know, differentiate.
23:04:03 <zzo38> I said all comments was at the top, but I am wrong. There are some comments in argopt_get also but only "// Set defaults" and "// Load options"
23:04:10 <ehirdiphone> Phantom_Hoover: I'm 14.
23:04:19 <ehirdiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Do the mental arithmetic.
23:04:30 <oklopol> can he actually differentiate or does he remember what the string substitution is for polynomials and a few other functions
23:04:37 <oklopol> i bet he doesn't know shit
23:04:39 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Could you at least do something like start from sets and define geometry and then calculate the area from there?
23:04:43 <ehirdiphone> Probably the latter.
23:04:53 <pikhq> "Starting from 3 axioms, I shall compute the area."
23:05:01 <Phantom_Hoover> ehirdiphone, are they that stupid?
23:05:13 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: They have their standard "blah you need to be able to do this" line.
23:05:19 <ehirdiphone> Phantom_Hoover: To what?
23:05:21 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: why would he know?
23:05:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:05:28 <pikhq> oklopol: Most everyone only knows the string substitutions, yeah.
23:05:32 <oklopol> oh you mean stupid enough to give that kind of homework or wht
23:05:33 <oklopol> *what
23:05:41 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: BTW, they're expecting you to do arithmetic on paper.
23:05:50 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: I know.
23:06:04 <ehirdiphone> Which is still UNIMAGINABLY BORING.
23:06:29 <pikhq> What, do they not give numbers that make for easy arithmetic?
23:06:31 <oklopol> numbers are rather boring
23:06:46 <oklopol> pikhq: no, because there would be no challenge then! :D
23:06:49 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Well, it's easy. Just so tedious.
23:06:51 <oklopol> xxxxxD
23:06:53 <pikhq> Most such things I've had experience with tend to go for easy, easy multiplication. Powers of 10 and the like.
23:07:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (*.net *.split).
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23:07:23 <ehirdiphone> More like 3.2 * 5.3 * 4 which is not hard of course.
23:07:26 <pikhq> But, then, I last did geometry for class when I was, oh... 12.
23:07:32 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: That's cruel.
23:07:41 <pikhq> Not because it's hard but because, well. Fuck that shit.
23:07:52 <ehirdiphone> But, you know, I don't have intimate familiarity with long multiplication because it sucks.
23:08:09 <ehirdiphone> Fat juicy cocks, it sucks.
23:08:25 <oklopol> i've never seen geometry done at all rigorously, i hear it's really boring
23:08:27 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: The geometry was too easy so MULTIPLY!
23:08:36 <oklopol> hmm wait
23:08:43 <oklopol> that one paper about how math is taught wrong
23:08:44 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: read Euclid :P
23:08:58 -!- coppro has joined.
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23:09:06 <Phantom_Hoover> ehirdiphone, what sort of shapes are we talking about?
23:09:21 <pikhq> oklopol: It's taught in a manner that would make Euclid laugh at how basic it is.
23:09:22 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
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23:09:33 <oklopol> it said geometry is done, in whatever country the writer was in, rigorously in the sense that they used a few axioms and shit
23:09:33 <oklopol> ehirdiphone: not very rigorous afaik
23:09:33 <oklopol> the axioms are mostly for guiding intuition
23:09:36 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:09:36 <oklopol> and new ones are added without proof when useful
23:09:36 <ehirdiphone> Phantom_Hoover: A +! An H! A rectangle with a zigzagging side!
23:09:38 <pikhq> Which is pretty impressive considering how far math has moved in the past, oh, 2000 years.
23:09:49 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Do you have any access to books? Or would reading be considered subversive?
23:09:50 <zzo38> [Sorry, connection error]
23:10:00 <zzo38> I didn't read it
23:10:17 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: I could ask to go to the library or bring in my own.
23:10:18 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: So fucking tedious.
23:10:33 <oklopol> ehirdiphone: yes what journals do they have access to
23:10:33 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Now for the depressing bit: people actually think math is THE ABILITY TO COMPUTE THAT STUFF.
23:10:47 <ehirdiphone> But why reduce my enjoyment of a boom by Reading it tired and depressed?
23:10:59 <ehirdiphone> *book *reading
23:11:09 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, surprised?
23:11:15 <oklopol> pikhq: that's so depressing i'm not bothered by the fact saying that has been done to death. that's pretty depressing.
23:11:29 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: "I'm a very visual mathematician." -one of the teachers
23:11:30 <pikhq> oklopol: It has been said a lot, sure.
23:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> You barely touch real mathematics in school.
23:11:31 <zzo38> They are confusing math with doing math? I suppose it is easy to get confused if you do not understand
23:11:35 <zzo38> And a lot of people do not understand
23:11:35 <pikhq> But it's true and AARGH
23:11:43 <oklopol> what is weird is i still have to explain it to everyone
23:11:47 <cpressey> There's this word "arithmetic" that no one uses.
23:11:59 <oklopol> even people i've already explained it to
23:12:00 <zzo38> And even "doing math" does not always involve computation
23:12:01 <oklopol> they don't believe me
23:12:06 <cpressey> #include <math.h>? What bullshit!
23:12:19 <cpressey> I see no math in math.h.
23:12:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Calculus is really where actual math starts in school, yeah.
23:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> If I had a penny for every time someone has said "Hey, you're good at maths, right? What's the square root of pi?"
23:12:32 <pikhq> And even then, they try their hardest to make it just computation.
23:12:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I would be able to throw them at people who asked that wort of question.
23:12:49 <ehirdiphone> "I'm a very visual mathematician." -one of the teachers <== just gonna repeat this forever
23:12:50 <zzo38> And I took calculus class in school
23:13:06 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: I like how numbers *look*.
23:13:14 <zzo38> What exactly does it mean to be "a very visual mathematician"?
23:13:27 <oklopol> ehirdiphone: i'm a very visual mathematician too
23:13:52 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Ask him about some nice and beautiful 4D shapes.
23:14:02 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: Substitute "arithmetician" for "mathematician", then substitute "idiot" for the entire sentence.
23:14:15 <cpressey> I have to go. Keep on keepin' on...
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23:14:19 <pikhq> Just something simple like "How d'you like them hypercubes?" or "Man, Klein bottles are awesome, aren't they?"
23:14:25 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Do not insult the ~womanly maths/art teacher~
23:14:35 <ehirdiphone> Yes. Maths and art.
23:14:35 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: OK...?
23:14:35 <pikhq> I'll grant that this hardly even touches on anything at all, but still.
23:14:37 <ehirdiphone> Woooooooo
23:14:41 <oklopol> math is art
23:14:51 <oklopol> it's science and it's art
23:14:56 <oklopol> and yet it's neither
23:14:58 <oklopol> it's magic
23:15:05 <oklopol> personally i love math
23:15:13 <oklopol> let me give you some definitions
23:15:17 <ehirdiphone> Abortion would be art for this moron >_> Ohh I went there
23:15:41 <pikhq> I can imagine a mathematically inclined person doing well in art. But this is apparently a computationally inclined person.
23:15:41 <oklopol> the definition kurka gives for quasiperiodicity is as follows, although let me refresh your memory on dynamical systems first
23:15:45 <ehirdiphone> (Yes I am suggesting she remove herself fro
23:15:52 <ehirdiphone> m the gene pool)
23:16:03 <oklopol> we assume a simply system, compact metric space X with a continuous function f supplying the dynamics
23:16:08 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: She didn't understand negative exponents.
23:16:23 <ehirdiphone> She doubly didn't understand non-integral ones.
23:16:34 <oklopol> a point x is quasiperiodic if, given any neighborhood U of x, there is such a p that f^jp(x) \in U for all j
23:16:38 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Oh dear god. And this woman is *teaching* computation?
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23:16:56 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: ^_^
23:17:09 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: Does that mean some people have to eat her arm and other people have to do scientific experiment with her blood? Or does it mean she has to go to the moon and die from lack of air?
23:17:12 <oklopol> the definition of almost periodicity in kurka's book, and curiously the definition of quasiperiodicity in tilings and patterns literature, goes as follows:
23:17:19 <pikhq> Clearly she should be *taught* computation.
23:17:27 <pikhq> Or at least mathematics.
23:17:32 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: Ooh, how do i decide?!?!
23:17:42 <ehirdiphone> They're both so appealing...
23:17:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:17:55 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: I don't know. You decide using the method you want to choose how to decide.
23:17:58 <oklopol> a point x is almost periodict if, given any neighborhood U of x, there is such a p that given any n there is a 0 <= k < p such that f^(n+k)(x) \in U
23:18:09 <oklopol> so we have a bound on the return times
23:18:19 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: Can't we do both?
23:18:21 <oklopol> let's see what you've been talking about
23:18:36 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: OK, do both if that is what you prefer!
23:18:49 <ehirdiphone> yay
23:19:22 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Break into my room to tell me what knuth announces k
23:19:47 <ehirdiphone> Rhe window doesn't open much you'll have to s
23:19:52 <ehirdiphone> break it
23:19:56 <ehirdiphone> *The
23:19:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:20:00 <ehirdiphone> *much,
23:20:04 <ehirdiphone> *no s
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23:20:18 <oklopol> might be interested to see someone who thinks they know math but doesn't
23:20:21 <oklopol> *interesting
23:20:26 <oklopol> because
23:20:32 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: Why don't you just use morse code, and then you don't have to break the window, whoever is inside can open it. You only need to break it if there is nobody inside
23:20:38 <oklopol> they might actually try to follow when i start lecturing
23:20:39 <zzo38> And that you don't have the key.
23:20:44 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
23:20:46 <ehirdiphone> sentient egg-timers
23:20:49 <zzo38> But maybe it would be better to pick the lock instead?
23:21:02 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: On ... What?
23:21:11 <zzo38> On the door next to the window
23:21:12 <ehirdiphone> I'm in a mental institution...
23:21:24 <ehirdiphone> There is no such door.
23:21:30 <oklopol> could one of you define something now? there's a lot of forth but very little back here imo
23:21:45 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: O, that is why there is no reverse DNS...... OK.
23:21:54 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: Wat
23:22:00 <ehirdiphone> I'm on an iPhone :P
23:22:06 <zzo38> Your connection shows no reverse DNS
23:22:11 <ehirdiphone> Odd. M
23:22:17 <oklopol> it might be interesting to be in a mental institution
23:22:24 <oklopol> especially trying to get out
23:22:27 <ehirdiphone> Maybe i'm just hallucinating zzo38
23:22:30 <oklopol> and also the crazy people
23:22:34 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: Its not.
23:22:51 <ehirdiphone> They have powers far beyond locks.
23:23:13 <oklopol> yeah that's the challenge
23:23:19 <oklopol> point is not to try to run out
23:23:28 <ehirdiphone> Evade sectioning?
23:23:32 <oklopol> point is to trick them into thinking your sane
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23:23:36 -!- TokeyTheBong has joined.
23:23:36 <oklopol> *you're
23:23:41 <ehirdiphone> If you figure out how. Let me know.
23:23:44 <oklopol> :P
23:23:58 <zzo38> You can make up a text-adventure game?
23:24:07 <oklopol> i'm not sure i'd ever get out of a place like that
23:24:12 <ehirdiphone> TAKE MEDICATION
23:24:13 -!- TokeyTheBong has left (?).
23:24:19 <ehirdiphone> OPEN WINDOW
23:24:25 <ehirdiphone> The window doesn't open.
23:24:29 <ehirdiphone> SCREAM
23:24:43 <zzo38> Open the ceiling
23:24:47 <ehirdiphone> You are in a straitjacket. Men are comforting you.
23:24:57 <zzo38> Die
23:25:10 <ehirdiphone> You have no means of suicide.
23:25:14 <zzo38> Dye
23:25:26 <oklopol> they removed his teeth?
23:25:30 <ehirdiphone> Or pigmenting.
23:25:41 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: wat.
23:25:42 <zzo38> OK
23:25:50 <oklopol> "<ehirdiphone> You have no means of suicide."
23:25:54 <ehirdiphone> Are you suggesting I... gnaw my leg off?
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23:26:10 <oklopol> a crazy person should be able to bite somewhere important
23:26:18 <oklopol> yeah
23:26:22 <oklopol> gnaw your leg off
23:26:29 <ehirdiphone> Crazy != flexible
23:26:32 <oklopol> GNAW LEG OFF
23:26:47 <ehirdiphone> I CAN'T REACH
23:26:48 <oklopol> err, you don't have to be flexible to be able to put your foot in your mouth
23:26:49 <fizzie> Gnawing a leg off: a widely recognized sign of sanity.
23:27:01 <ehirdiphone> <3 fizzie
23:27:08 <oklopol> (how many of you bit your foot just now?)
23:27:14 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: Leg != foot
23:27:30 <oklopol> both easily reachable though
23:27:35 <zzo38> I don't eat my foot. I bite my arm sometimes
23:27:43 <ehirdiphone> You do it
23:27:49 <zzo38> I can't eat my foot
23:27:55 <oklopol> i like biting my big toe and letting my leg rest in the grip
23:27:55 <zzo38> It is too far away
23:28:01 <oklopol> well
23:28:03 <oklopol> not completely
23:28:07 <oklopol> because that would hurt
23:28:13 <oklopol> but a bit
23:28:20 <fizzie> "Sorry, I don't know how to EAT FOOT."
23:28:32 <ehirdiphone> I like the idea of your foot being far away.
23:28:45 <oklopol> my feet taste like pee
23:28:53 <oklopol> i should go to sleep
23:28:59 <ehirdiphone> thanks oklopol
23:29:03 <zzo38> I don't want to eat your foot either because you probably need your foot for walking
23:29:03 <oklopol> :D
23:29:04 <ehirdiphone> nice to know
23:29:11 <oklopol> that was a lie, actually
23:29:21 <oklopol> why would they taste like pee
23:29:25 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: thought you said wanking, was a bit confused
23:29:40 <oklopol> that might need some flexibility
23:30:02 <oklopol> or hmm i guess not
23:30:04 <ehirdiphone> I use my to masturbate!
23:30:08 <ehirdiphone> *spine
23:30:52 <oklopol> 4 hours 30 minutes sleep time left
23:30:52 <zzo38> I don't care about masturbate. But I need to walk and write and so on
23:31:19 <oklopol> those are important things
23:31:42 <oklopol> i think they are both more important than masturbation
23:31:50 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: sex or the ability to walk??
23:31:55 <ehirdiphone> answer quickly
23:31:56 <oklopol> writing slightly more important than walking i think
23:32:00 <oklopol> :D
23:32:03 <oklopol> i can't answer that quickly
23:32:10 <oklopol> sex probably
23:32:17 <ehirdiphone> Good to know
23:32:21 <oklopol> yeah
23:32:27 <zzo38> Depends on people. Different people have different opinion and it has to be that way
23:32:38 <ehirdiphone> I'll saw off your legs then oklopol
23:32:41 <oklopol> yeah
23:32:44 <oklopol> i got it
23:32:49 <ehirdiphone> If not I would kill your gf so yeah
23:32:53 <ehirdiphone> See you there
23:32:54 <oklopol> oh
23:32:59 <oklopol> i thought you'd saw off my dick
23:33:08 <oklopol> i mean i can always get a new gf
23:33:13 <oklopol> but i can't get a new dick
23:33:13 <ehirdiphone> you could turn gay
23:33:18 <oklopol> oh
23:33:19 <oklopol> true
23:33:19 <ehirdiphone> and bottom
23:33:22 <oklopol> yeah
23:33:28 <ehirdiphone> Or strapon
23:33:46 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: Ill just saw off your entire genital area
23:33:57 <ehirdiphone> then superglue the legs back on
23:34:01 <oklopol> hmm
23:34:08 <ehirdiphone> enjoy your colostomy
23:34:38 <oklopol> well my granpa died of colon cancer or something so maybe it would be safer that way?
23:35:10 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: I could just cut off your balls
23:35:21 <ehirdiphone> No testosterone, no sex drivw
23:35:29 <ehirdiphone> *drive
23:35:59 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:36:18 <ehirdiphone> Hi pikhq weve been talkijg abiut castration
23:36:34 <oklopol> i don't think that's how it works
23:36:46 <ehirdiphone> Or does it!???????
23:36:51 <ehirdiphone> 12345567890
23:36:52 <zzo38> pikhq: Perhaps you can read log file and then you will know
23:37:02 <zzo38> Why did you write 5 twice?
23:37:03 <ehirdiphone> spot the wrong
23:37:12 * oklopol spotted
23:37:19 <oklopol> it's the 0
23:37:21 <ehirdiphone> you spot tjhe wrong! Yay jx
23:37:22 <oklopol> it should be in the beginning
23:37:30 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: NO I UAE KEY BIARS
23:37:40 <ehirdiphone> If has fhe numbras thus manner
23:37:53 <ehirdiphone> 12374(6890
23:38:07 <oklopol> well now that looks even more weirder.
23:38:14 <oklopol> lol seriously i have to go
23:38:20 <zzo38> GO
23:38:22 <oklopol> things are making less and less sense
23:38:26 <ehirdiphone> 01928374()!!?.£i882
23:38:31 <oklopol> could someone define something first tho?
23:38:32 <zzo38> PLEASE GO
23:38:33 <ehirdiphone> Gyat is correkf order
23:38:42 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: Defibe. Xhixjeboiz
23:38:48 <ehirdiphone> Just define chichkenpoz
23:38:50 <ehirdiphone> Pox
23:38:54 <ehirdiphone> Jees oklopol
23:39:03 <ehirdiphone> Shats tiur anti face
23:39:04 -!- relet has left (?).
23:39:28 <oklopol> you're BAD friends.
23:39:30 <oklopol> ->
23:39:41 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: Aditionsly I agree but what I'd we dud open up the universpectrummy
23:39:49 <oklopol> (j/k <3 u)
23:40:09 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: I don't know.
23:43:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: I quit.).
23:58:56 <ehirdiphone> Ggg
23:59:49 <ehirdiphone> Night, bye
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