←2010-07-13 2010-07-14 2010-07-15→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:25 <aliseiphone> It's 463mhz
00:01:30 <aliseiphone> Not 66mhz
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00:01:48 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Memory bus clockrate is 66mhz.
00:01:54 <aliseiphone> Oh the ram
00:01:55 <aliseiphone> Right
00:02:11 <aliseiphone> So what do you think I could get? 256?
00:02:23 <aliseiphone> How many bux?
00:02:28 <pikhq> Maybe 512.
00:02:33 <pikhq> And it'll be fucking expensive.
00:02:49 * pikhq looks
00:04:48 <pikhq> Oh, okay. $50 for a 512 SO-DIMM.
00:04:54 <aliseiphone> Apparently using a USB stick as swap helps Puppy
00:05:08 <aliseiphone> pikhq: So what, £30?
00:05:08 <pikhq> Fairly pricy, but at least payable.
00:05:14 <aliseiphone> Or so.
00:05:15 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Roughly.
00:05:26 <aliseiphone> What about 256?
00:05:36 <pikhq> Only pricy in comparison with other RAM standards, then...
00:05:41 <pikhq> 2 bucks cheaper.
00:05:47 <aliseiphone> With, say, 128 of swap on a USB stick (USB 1.0)
00:05:49 <aliseiphone> Ah.
00:05:59 <aliseiphone> 512 would be cool. Pricy but eh.
00:06:22 <aliseiphone> I need SOMETHING to do over summer holiday.
00:06:59 <aliseiphone> So if I stuck 512 in and put puppy on a partition to load to ram it'd fly?
00:07:12 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I bet USB 1 is faster than the disk
00:07:18 <pikhq> It'll load from RAM anywhere you boot it from, BTW.
00:07:23 <pikhq> And yes, it'd freaking fly.
00:07:31 <aliseiphone> The disk is SLOW. I bet ~4krpm.
00:07:37 <pikhq> (well, it's always *optional*, but still.)
00:07:38 <aliseiphone> Or less.
00:07:57 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I wonder how puppy would run on a high spec box.
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00:08:46 <pikhq> aliseiphone: *Obnoxiously* well.
00:08:54 <pikhq> I should note once again: *IT MAKES GTK RUN FAST*.
00:09:11 <pikhq> And it's using binaries built for Ubuntu!
00:09:18 <cpressey> Later folks. Have fun with your laptop, aliseiphone...
00:09:37 <pikhq> With useless bullshit cut out, but still, it's Ubuntu-based. Well, the official distro is.
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00:09:55 <Gregor-P> Wots all this then?
00:09:55 <pikhq> It's created by a program that cuts useless bullshit out of packages from $distro-of-choice.
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00:10:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I read that it's not based on any distro.
00:11:36 <pikhq> aliseiphone: It is currently.
00:11:52 <pikhq> It's previously been Slackware-based, then not based on any. It's now Ubuntu-based.
00:12:42 <pikhq> The point of making it Ubuntu-based was to be able to just focus on making the system run fast without having to futz with all the building-packages junk.
00:13:34 <aliseiphone> Boring!
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00:14:08 <pikhq> It also feels free to make its own packages whenever needed.
00:15:02 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I have an urge to make my own RAM based distro now.
00:15:36 <aliseiphone> Without LAMEbuntu :O
00:15:40 <aliseiphone> *:P
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00:16:18 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Ubuntu's just one of the possible Puppy bases.
00:16:27 <aliseiphone> PAH
00:16:36 <pikhq> You could shove in Slackware packages if you wanted.
00:17:06 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007611%20600006081&IsNodeId=1&name=24GB%20%286%20x%204GB%29 Would you care to join me in drooling?
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00:20:09 <aliseiphone> Meh.
00:20:20 <aliseiphone> After 16GiB it's basically pointless.
00:20:41 <pikhq> I can come up with ways to use all that.
00:20:59 <aliseiphone> With 16 GiB you can load an entire Ubuntu installation with many packaged into RAM.
00:21:05 <aliseiphone> *packages
00:21:11 <aliseiphone> And still have tons left.
00:21:15 <pikhq> Not enough to compile OpenOffice in RAM.
00:21:31 <pikhq> Also, seriously, all of Ubuntu's just 16 GiB? That's pretty tiny compared with Debian.
00:21:33 <aliseiphone> Problem found: OpenOffice.
00:21:45 <aliseiphone> pikhq: ...
00:21:49 <pikhq> Which comes on two BluRay discs.
00:21:50 <pikhq> :P
00:21:53 <aliseiphone> Base install is 2 GiB.
00:22:14 <aliseiphone> If you installed tons of useful shit, lets say 8 GiB.
00:22:27 <aliseiphone> You still have 8 GiB left.
00:22:49 <aliseiphone> Of course, loading it into ram would take four years.
00:23:37 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I wish there was a useful lightweight browser. :(
00:25:07 <pikhq> aliseiphone: :(
00:25:15 <aliseiphone> pikhq: So Puppy uses KDrive. Is it good?
00:25:49 <pikhq> Yeah, works just fine.
00:26:09 <pikhq> KDrive is a full-featured X11 that *happens* to be very small.
00:26:44 <pikhq> It was actually the testing bed for most of their recent things to make X suck less, like XRender acceleration...
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00:30:21 <Gracenotes> okay time to call dell support to get a new hard drive from them
00:30:23 <Gracenotes> this should be fun
00:30:31 <aliseiphone> VESA or framebuffer. Which is a cooler X driver? Or... EGA?!
00:33:10 <pikhq> Hah.
00:33:30 <aliseiphone> Blinded?!
00:33:55 <aliseiphone> Then allow me to remove it from the equation! VESA or framebuffer?
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00:34:31 <pikhq> Equivalent in functionality for most purposes.
00:34:45 <aliseiphone> Or ARE they?
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00:35:46 <aliseiphone> Well, bye.
00:35:53 <aliseiphone> pikhq: EXPECT RAMNUX
00:36:03 <pikhq> XUNMAR
00:36:15 <aliseiphone> With some suitably punny ram-related name.
00:36:17 <aliseiphone> Bye.
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02:30:12 <coppro> holy crap I froze vim
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02:30:21 <nooga_> who knows debian?
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06:32:12 <Gregor> To anyone who's listened to Mov. 2 WIPP 9: PREPARE FOR INSANE TREBLE. That is all.
06:34:48 <pikhq> Awesome
06:40:47 <Gregor> "Damn it, that chord is so perfect, too bad it's physically impossible.
06:41:28 * pikhq gives Gregor salad fingers
06:46:12 <Gregor> I really love the treble on this digital piano.
06:46:21 <Gregor> It's actually better than the treble on any real piano I've played.
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06:48:08 <pikhq> Presumably good treble on a piano is pricy.
06:49:09 <Gregor> It's tricky. It's either horribly godawful piercing or really dull. Getting the right balance is tough, and actually I think digitals do generally better than real pianos.
06:49:26 <Gregor> But this one in particular is just spectacular.
06:49:31 <pikhq> And of course any real piano requires skilled tuning.
06:49:36 <Gregor> I just want to hang out in the top few octaves because it's awesome :P
06:49:40 <pikhq> Whereas a digital piano is forever and ever in tune.
06:49:50 <Gregor> Until you take a soldering iron to it!
06:49:58 <pikhq> Darned circuit-bending.
06:50:47 <Gregor> Welp, I've just been playing the piano for two hours (with brief pauses to chat) as a sad attempt at holding on to what few shreds of sanity I have left.
06:51:14 <Gregor> And by the time I'm done with mov. 2, it'll have more use of the top note on a piano than anything I've ever written or played X-P
06:51:21 <Gregor> (OK, only two thusfar, but still :P )
06:51:22 * pikhq can empathise
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09:07:11 <cheater> can a cat be said to be a quine
09:07:15 <cheater> ?
09:25:03 <Slereah> Only if you type in the exact words of the program!
09:26:16 <fizzie> Also if you don't neuter it, but it might not be a *perfect* quine, just sort-of.
09:36:38 <Slereah> The best kind of quines are the cheating quines.
09:36:48 <Slereah> My favorites are the quines via error messages
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09:37:29 <Deewiant> Cheating quines are boring: writing out the contents of __FILE__ or equivalent is rather trivial
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11:31:33 <cheater> is it true that the smalltalk debugger is really good?
11:31:41 <cheater> and what does it do that it's so good?
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12:51:28 <cheater> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKGhvKyjgLY
12:51:32 <cheater> check this out ais523
13:06:57 <ais523> cheater: why on earth would I follow a random link to Youtube without context?
13:07:18 <cheater> ais523: because it is important for all computer scientists
13:07:37 <ais523> if it were, I would have seen it already
13:11:34 <cheater> that's why i linked you to it
13:12:57 <ais523> searching backlinks implies it's about memristors, which I have definitely heard of
13:13:05 <ais523> but I don't see why they'd be more relevant to computer scientists than engineers
13:13:14 <ais523> in computer science, you generally don't care what components the computer is made of
13:17:28 <cheater> the stuff directly interesting to computer programmers starts around 30:00
13:18:05 <cheater> they describe how memristors can give you petabytes of directly addressable, clock-speed on-cpu memory with current technologies
13:18:30 <ais523> I wouldn't call that directly interesting
13:18:33 <Deewiant> That's still not interesting
13:18:37 <ais523> that's just a scale issue
13:18:43 <cheater> their rough estimate is 1 petabit per square cm and 1ns switching speeds
13:18:56 <ais523> programming's much the same whether you have petabytes on the clock chip or megabytes of external memory
13:20:16 <cheater> no, not really
13:22:14 <cheater> when you start being able to flop huge amounts of data around, your code will start looking completely different
13:22:29 <cheater> code will become more data-oriented and less functionality-oriented
13:23:44 <ais523> cheater: are you aware of the existence of mainframe computers?
13:23:48 <Deewiant> My point would've been that the existence remains uninteresting until you get to program for existing computers that contain such hardware
13:24:11 <ais523> they're used for heavily data-oriented processing atm
13:24:51 <cheater> ais523: they can't do it with such ease
13:25:32 <ais523> cheater: all this is going to do is to keep Moore's Law-like rules on track
13:25:38 <ais523> computers get faster all the time, we know that
13:25:47 <ais523> I could link you to a video about programming GPUs, if I had one
13:26:02 <ais523> that's pretty different from programming CPUs, too, and many people seem to think that's the future of computing
13:27:13 <nooga> let's face it
13:27:40 <nooga> GPUs are like tiny supercomputers for floating point operations
13:29:57 <cheater> ais523: the thing is, the cpus have historically been faster than the memory
13:30:09 <cheater> ais523: this *ratio* is what changes the paradigm
13:30:21 <ais523> cheater: no
13:30:25 <Deewiant> Only recently, actually
13:30:26 <ais523> recently they've been faster than the memory
13:30:31 <cheater> ais523: if cpus were still working at khz speeds and disks were as fast as they are now, the paradigm would be that.
13:30:32 <ais523> before that, though, the memory was faster
13:30:36 <cheater> i'm talking about persistent memory
13:30:44 <cheater> not about RAM
13:30:52 <ais523> cheater: there isn't really a fundamental difference
13:30:57 <ais523> as you can persist RAM on power-off if you like
13:31:04 <cheater> but you don't
13:31:41 <ais523> no, and the reason you don't is that in 99% of cases it doesn't matter
13:31:43 <cheater> if this became the state of the art it would be different and people would learn from it, but it isn't, so they don't, hence there's no development in areas that can make use of this
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13:35:45 <ais523> cheater: would it surprise you if I told you I'd worked on systems which could write to persistent memory as quickly as they could read main memory?
13:35:56 <ais523> and as quickly as they could add two registers?
13:36:11 <cheater> no
13:36:32 <cheater> but my comment about popularity still applies
13:37:20 <ais523> cheater: whatever's most popular is whatever Microsoft's favourite programming language for other people to write Windows apps is at that time
13:37:21 <ais523> with a timelag of a couple of years or so
13:37:22 <ais523> this is unlikely to change in the near future
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20:49:32 <cpressey_away> Your Irony for Today: Software is the most expensive component of a system because it's the easiest to fix.
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21:00:36 <Gregor-P> On the sixth day, Lambda created the Y-combinator. And it was good.
21:00:45 <pikhq> ???
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21:02:55 <Gregor-P> You don't appreciate [lambda] . Genesis?
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21:17:05 <AnMaster> Gregor-P, nice one
21:18:26 <AnMaster> <cpressey_away> Your Irony for Today: Software is the most expensive component of a system because it's the easiest to fix. <-- XD
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22:27:45 <cpressey> Are you there, Lambda? It's me, Chris
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22:41:20 <zzo38> At FreeGeek I was fixing a Python program, to make it send reports in a new way. But why does the "pydoc" program seems to run two different programs when it is tried to run?
22:46:24 <cpressey> Python developers seem to like like ad-hoc overloading.
22:47:16 <cpressey> "If <name> contains a '/', it is treated as a filename; if it names a directory, documentation is written for all the contents." ... what if it contains a '/' *and* names a directory?
22:49:08 <zzo38> for x in `seq 1024 1279`; do; nc -kl $x >> log.$x &; done
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22:49:22 <aliseiphone> Anyone know of a way to jailbreak an iPhone without a computer?
22:49:23 <zzo38> That is a shell-script for receiving the reports is it correct?
22:49:43 <aliseiphone> In the OS 1.3 days you could just go to jailbreakme.com.
22:49:54 <aliseiphone> Instant jailbreak.
22:52:50 <aliseiphone> Sorry, OS 1.1 days.
22:52:56 <augur> wow what
22:52:58 <augur> how'd that work
22:54:35 <cpressey> Gnomes who would bake a saw into a cake for you
22:56:25 <aliseiphone> augur: Exploit in TIFF and then JPEG renderers.
22:56:29 <aliseiphone> Buffer overflow.
22:56:33 <augur> hahaha
22:56:36 <augur> wow
22:56:53 <aliseiphone> It even showed a progress bar above the frozen browser as it jailbroke it.
22:57:00 <aliseiphone> Good times, good times.
22:57:11 <augur> thats hilarious
22:57:29 <aliseiphone> You had to downgrade from 1.3, jailbreak it, then upgrade it to 1.3 again.
22:58:15 <aliseiphone> Anyway, I suppose nothing like that exists any more.
22:58:57 <aliseiphone> So, superlative news.
22:59:36 <aliseiphone> Apparently I'll be a daypatient by the holidays - after next week.
22:59:57 <cpressey> That's a definite improvement.
23:00:01 <aliseiphone> And I hear murmurings about only coming in three days a week too.
23:00:11 <aliseiphone> Which is a super improvement.
23:00:23 <Sgeo> :D
23:01:03 * Sgeo guesses that if it weren't for breaking their rules, they wouldn't see an improvement because you'd have gone insane
23:01:30 <aliseiphone> Then by September I'll be discharged to that mini-unit in the local high school. Which will be much more tolerable: focused only on school and apparently a later start to the day will be arranged because of my mortal hatred of mornings.
23:01:45 <aliseiphone> *shrug*, I can handle that.
23:02:02 <aliseiphone> It's just fucking GCSEs. They're not exactly hard.
23:02:21 <Sgeo> And social environment, I'd assume
23:02:41 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: What do you mean?
23:02:48 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, it's HS?
23:03:49 <aliseiphone> Well, yes. Also known as "Hell" for all you nerds out there. But I'll be based in the mini unit thing apparently, so that won't have much of an effect *shrug*
23:04:10 <aliseiphone> By and large, people my age are fucking idiots. Have you noticed?
23:04:26 <Sgeo> For me, people stopped being assholes in, 9th grade I think
23:04:43 <aliseiphone> Meh. Just nine months then bullshit ceases.
23:05:09 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: You have to seriously consider the possibility that you simply became too much like them.
23:06:24 <aliseiphone> Anyway, I'm approximately nothing like almost all 14 year olds.
23:06:55 <aliseiphone> My mother actually went to the HS when it was a grammar school. Clearly gnomes are involved.
23:09:06 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Yak Linux. Discuss.
23:09:25 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Yak Linux?
23:10:55 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I figure yaks are basically the same as rams.
23:11:35 <aliseiphone> Therefore my RAM distro shall be called Yak Linux.
23:11:48 <pikhq> Ah.
23:12:02 <aliseiphone> pikhq: MLterm as default terminal. There, you love it now.
23:12:17 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Not really; I have sense developed hatred for MLterm.
23:12:23 <pikhq> It's got very nice text rendering.
23:12:28 <aliseiphone> Dammit!'
23:12:32 <pikhq> Unfortunately, it sucks as a terminal.
23:12:35 <aliseiphone> s/'//
23:12:39 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Why?
23:13:07 <pikhq> It treats bold background colors *strangely*, and WHY THE HELL WOULD IT TREAT THE ALT KEY THAT WAY
23:13:14 <aliseiphone> Also, *since.
23:13:17 -!- jillsmitt_ has joined.
23:13:28 <aliseiphone> How does it treat the Alt key?
23:13:31 <pikhq> Yes.
23:13:37 -!- jillsmitt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:13:45 <aliseiphone> "How?" "Yes."
23:14:09 <pikhq> It spontaneously decided to treat it as Alt-Gr.
23:14:14 <pikhq> Both of them.
23:14:23 <aliseiphone> But... Why?
23:14:30 <pikhq> Because.
23:14:32 <Sgeo> Alt-Gr?
23:14:40 <aliseiphone> So what terminal DO you endorse?
23:14:50 <pikhq> Oh, and its treatment of fonts sucks major ass.
23:14:53 * Sgeo endorses cmd.exe
23:14:55 <Sgeo> (j/k)
23:14:55 <pikhq> You can tell it which font to use.
23:14:57 <cpressey> Damn, and here I thought it was a terminal app *written in* ML.
23:14:57 <pikhq> Not fonts, font.
23:14:58 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: The Alt key favoured by dogs and bears.
23:15:12 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Currently, urxvt.
23:15:18 <aliseiphone> Code2000!
23:15:22 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:15:32 <Sgeo> There should be
23:15:34 <pikhq> No, that's just the BMP.
23:15:34 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Tried Terminator?
23:15:42 <aliseiphone> Code2001
23:15:43 <Sgeo> What about the reference .. thingies in the Unicode thing?
23:15:44 <pikhq> aliseiphone: That was just annoying as hell.
23:15:50 <aliseiphone> *2001.
23:15:58 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: There are none.
23:16:02 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Why?
23:16:05 <Sgeo> oh
23:16:10 <aliseiphone> I like jessies' software. :(
23:16:11 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I don't recall.
23:16:16 <pikhq> I stopped using it in 15 minutes.
23:16:31 <aliseiphone> WELL MAYBE YOU JUST SUCK THEN.
23:16:36 <aliseiphone> Tried st? :P
23:16:53 <pikhq> st doesn't handle Unicode or xft.
23:17:00 <pikhq> Otherwise, quite nice.
23:17:04 <aliseiphone> Or ANYTHING.
23:17:28 <pikhq> Seriously, all I want in a terminal is Unicode handling, xft handling, and VT100 emulation.
23:17:47 <aliseiphone> pikhq: The problem is that vt100 sucks huge donkey balls and Unicode just, uh, rips the balls off.
23:18:03 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:18:09 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I don't think you understand.
23:18:16 <aliseiphone> RTL? But this BYTE is in THIS cell, not THAT one!
23:18:31 <pikhq> Not-Unicode is like unto genocide.
23:18:37 <aliseiphone> Yes.
23:18:48 <aliseiphone> But VT100 makes it impossible.
23:18:48 <pikhq> Unicode ripping balls off is a major, major step in the right direction!
23:19:15 <pikhq> Ohright. It's char based.
23:19:15 <aliseiphone> Proper Unicode support, this interacting properly with VT100. Pick one.
23:19:23 <aliseiphone> BYTE based.
23:19:31 <aliseiphone> Cursor points to one byte.
23:19:41 <cpressey> Right, and a char is a byte right??? Jeez.
23:19:51 <aliseiphone> And if a byte is in a grid cell, ie in byte order, it must be shown there.
23:20:08 <pikhq> Hmm.
23:20:09 <aliseiphone> Can't just move cells around! Thus RTL dies.
23:20:34 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, there are no terminal types for a terminal emulator to support that allow for Unicode to be done right.
23:20:46 <aliseiphone> Conclusion: Use a proper fucking IRC client.
23:20:55 <aliseiphone> One that uses, say, Pango.
23:21:06 <pikhq> aliseiphone: IRC is not the only place where I've got Unicode text.
23:21:10 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Rich stream like plan 9?
23:21:21 <pikhq> Anyways: conclusion. Fuck. Terminals.
23:21:25 <aliseiphone> Dumb dumb terminal with advanced editing capabilities.
23:21:39 <pikhq> Not "fuck text-based interfaces". Just fuck terminals.
23:21:46 <aliseiphone> You could even detect a curses program and go into Stupid Mode.
23:21:55 <aliseiphone> (ie VT100 mode)
23:22:10 <zzo38> Unicode works OK in PuTTY
23:22:12 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, do there exist any tools, legal or not, for converting Amazon eBooks into ePub or another format?
23:22:13 <aliseiphone> Just make a termcap of terminfo or whatever.
23:22:19 <aliseiphone> zzo38: Arabic?
23:22:19 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Example of a proper IRC client, BTW?
23:22:23 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: JFGI
23:22:23 <zzo38> (PuTTY emulates xterm terminal, I think)
23:22:26 <Sgeo> I might get a Kindle for free soon, and switch to a decent eReader later
23:22:36 <pikhq> zzo38: mlterm is the only thing that handles RTL right that I've found.
23:22:38 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Uhh... XChat. It's shit but what can you do.
23:22:48 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Ugggghhghghghghghn
23:23:03 * pikhq has half a mind to create an IRC client now
23:23:08 <zzo38> I am using PuTTY for IRC and it can receive Unicode
23:23:15 <pikhq> zzo38: RTL?'
23:23:17 <aliseiphone> pikhq: XChat-GNOME commits slightly fewer crimes against humanity in the UI department.
23:23:19 <zzo38> (If it is configured correctly)
23:23:23 <aliseiphone> zzo38: ARABIC?
23:23:24 <zzo38> I don't know about RTL works or not, however.
23:23:27 <cpressey> pikhq: Combine IRC client and terminal emulator in one program and you've got my support
23:23:28 <aliseiphone> *Arabic?
23:23:36 <aliseiphone> pikhq: *no "'l
23:23:40 <aliseiphone> *"'l
23:23:48 <aliseiphone> *"'"
23:24:05 <pikhq> Y'know, irssi *is* far too complex of an IRC client.
23:24:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null).
23:24:06 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Smuxi?
23:24:10 <pikhq> Requires freaking glib.
23:24:15 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ?
23:24:26 <zzo38> pikhq: Maybe PHIRC is less complex of an IRC client.
23:24:30 <cpressey> Back when I did that sort of thing on that sort of OS I used "tinyirc"
23:24:36 <aliseiphone> I know! I'll write an IRC client. Not like I have enough projects.
23:24:36 <pikhq> Not GTK. Just glib.
23:24:46 <pikhq> It uses Gobject but not GTK!
23:24:48 <pikhq> WHY?!?
23:24:54 * Sgeo decides not to say "Thanks in advance"
23:24:58 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Smuxi is an IRC client. Also, Quassel?
23:25:14 <aliseiphone> Konversation is very good. KDE alert.
23:25:27 <cpressey> pikhq: I think I've seen Qt apps that use Gobject now.
23:25:43 <pikhq> cpressey: AAAAAAAAGHMAKEITSTOP
23:25:52 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Now imagine if irssi required *GTK*.
23:26:05 <pikhq> aliseiphone: *shudder*
23:26:05 <cpressey> It's free! So link to it!
23:26:20 <cpressey> "They stick quite nicely"
23:26:40 <pikhq> aliseiphone: One of my major complaints with most GUI IRC clients I've tried is that they are unfriendly towards keyboard-only usage.
23:26:43 <aliseiphone> "I link to Emacs AND vim."
23:27:01 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Keyboard-based GUI is my specialty.
23:27:13 <aliseiphone> Or something.
23:27:27 <pikhq> This is, in fact, why I use any TUI programs at all.
23:27:27 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Mind if I... Don't use / commands?
23:27:48 <pikhq> Because I want a keyboard as the primary interface for pretty much everything textual.
23:27:53 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ???
23:28:05 <zzo38> I use keyboard a lot for any things too, if I can type fast, I can operate the computer fast
23:28:12 <aliseiphone> "/ j space" vs "Ctrl+J". And the latter way you can SEND LINES BEGINNING WITH / WITHOUT RAGING.
23:28:15 <aliseiphone> pikhq: ^
23:28:30 <pikhq> Mmmm.
23:28:49 <pikhq> Okay, I can totally accept combos for commands.
23:28:53 <aliseiphone> "/j" is like JOIN MODE. LIKE VI. MODAL. YOU LIKE EMACS.
23:29:00 <aliseiphone> :P
23:29:00 <zzo38> aliseiphone: I don't know what you meant?
23:29:08 * pikhq <3 combos
23:29:14 <aliseiphone> zzo38: What part?
23:29:20 <cheater> hello
23:29:23 <cheater> i cannot sleep
23:29:23 <zzo38> I don't know what "/ j space" vs "Ctrl+J" means.
23:29:38 <zzo38> And what it means send lines beginning with / without raging.
23:29:41 <cheater> please someone tick me in
23:30:13 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Oh, and those commands will replace the input line with e.g. "Join: [ ... ]". Enter with no input or esc goes back to previous input line.
23:30:24 <aliseiphone> Or backspace on empty line.
23:30:29 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Mmmmmm.
23:30:31 <zzo38> I can already send lines beginning with / by putting "/RAW :" at the front and CTRL+P CTRL+M CTRL+P CTRL+J at the end.
23:30:32 <aliseiphone> zzo38: The former are key entries.
23:30:32 * Sgeo is happy that he'll soon be able to offload his largish MIDI file collection
23:30:33 <pikhq> Delish.
23:30:47 <aliseiphone> zzo38: But that's a PAIN.
23:31:00 <zzo38> (This is also the only to send lines beginning with lowercase letters)
23:31:02 <cheater> i can send lines beginning with / by inserting just two additional characters
23:31:05 <cheater> /like this.
23:31:13 <Sgeo> XChat lets me do // to start a line with /
23:31:21 <cpressey> //test
23:31:24 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Aaaand... How many widgets would this UI have?
23:31:31 <Sgeo> /Like this
23:31:35 <cheater> oh nice
23:31:37 <cheater> i didn't know that
23:31:47 <cheater> but my version works in all irc clients
23:31:47 <zzo38> All IRC commands begin with letters anyways? Not a slash?
23:31:50 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Um... Channel list, channel text.
23:32:11 <Sgeo> /msg #esoteric /stuff should also work in all IRC clients
23:32:14 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Names callable up with a command, like irssi.
23:32:17 <Sgeo> /stuff should also work in all IRC clients
23:32:26 <cheater> alise
23:32:29 <Sgeo> /me wonders if SAY is universal to most IRC clients
23:32:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I say no to channel list. Why should I always see the list of channels all the time?
23:32:33 <cheater> is the smalltalk debugger really cool?
23:32:48 <pikhq> All I care about as far as channels go is when a channel has *activity*.
23:32:53 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Easy switching? Notification of messages?
23:33:00 <nooga> prawns with mayo and cucumber <3
23:33:03 <pikhq> I'm freaking pressing a simple combo for switching anyways.
23:33:15 <aliseiphone> Having UIs pop up and stuff sucks from a HCI perspective.
23:33:19 <pikhq> For instance, this is Alt-4, #haskell is Alt-8, and #haskell-blah is Alt-9.
23:33:24 <zzo38> But there should be no need to send a line beginning with a lowercase letter to the server, IRC is case-insensitive anyways.
23:33:29 <zzo38> (Except for modes)
23:33:48 <pikhq> When there's activity I just get a *number* showing up in the status line.
23:34:08 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Yes; IMO that's xchat's worst flaw.
23:34:19 <zzo38> PHIRC does not currently support multiple windows but I might add that feature in a later version of PHIRC
23:34:19 <aliseiphone> I care about /where/ the activity is.
23:34:39 <aliseiphone> The channel list would be discrete. Perhaps you'll grow to like it?
23:34:47 <pikhq> No.
23:35:01 <aliseiphone> Yes. You would. :P
23:35:06 <pikhq> Believe me, I genuinely hate channel lists.
23:35:19 <zzo38> Channel list? The channel list is generally too long if you use the LIST command
23:35:33 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Because they suck. Mine would be actually useful. :P
23:35:40 <aliseiphone> zzo38 is AnMastering
23:35:47 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Is it more than 20 pixels of UI space?
23:35:55 <pikhq> Yes? Sorry, inferior.
23:36:02 <zzo38> aliseiphone: What does "AnMastering" means?
23:36:04 <aliseiphone> pikhq: What, in cm^2?
23:36:18 <cpressey> I'm only on one channel. Why do I need a list?
23:36:21 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Okay, okay. About 1 cm^2.
23:36:24 <aliseiphone> Also, please note that irssi's UI /sucks/.
23:36:34 <pikhq> Much of it does.
23:36:36 <aliseiphone> Er. In px^2?
23:36:39 <aliseiphone> I mean.
23:36:50 <zzo38> aliseiphone: That is why I use PHIRC instead.
23:36:52 <cpressey> Aren't pixels already square?
23:36:57 <cpressey> Well, modulo aspect ratio, of course.
23:37:01 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Believe me. I know how to conserve and utilise UI space properly.
23:37:04 <aliseiphone> :P
23:37:12 <pikhq> One thing I do like about it is that hardly anything is shown. Hardly anything at all.
23:37:24 <pikhq> There are literally *two lines* here that aren't the channel text.
23:37:25 <cpressey> aliseiphone: You must use tabs, of course.
23:37:31 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Oh, and the channel text would be typographically nice.
23:37:31 <pikhq> *Two lines*!
23:37:55 <pikhq> aliseiphone: That's a killer feature right there.
23:38:14 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Line spacing. Message spacing. Consistent colour scheme. Thought out indentations wrt message authors.
23:38:25 <pikhq> Say, could you also convince a web browser dev to make text typographically nice?
23:38:26 <cpressey> I want the channel text to recede into the distance like the Star Wars opening.
23:38:29 <zzo38> PHIRC has no lines other than the IRC lines (usually channel text, but if you are not on a channel it could be something else)
23:38:32 <aliseiphone> But when you copy-paste, it'll turn into <foo> bar style.
23:38:47 <pikhq> I mean, at the very least, *render text well*?
23:38:49 <Sgeo> Woooh!
23:39:01 <Sgeo> The game will not just have a production world
23:39:10 <Sgeo> As soon as it opens, we'll get a separate world for testing
23:39:32 <aliseiphone> And Sgeo fondles the corpse ...
23:40:14 * pikhq really, really wants ligatures in his text
23:40:15 <aliseiphone> pikhq: How about we kill the freetype devs fiest?
23:40:23 <aliseiphone> They fail at
23:40:31 <aliseiphone> Antialiasing
23:40:35 <aliseiphone> Hintibg
23:40:40 <aliseiphone> *Hinting
23:40:50 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Patent law.
23:40:50 <aliseiphone> Subpixel rendering.
23:40:58 <cpressey> Why is all the popular stuff crap, anyway?
23:41:10 <cpressey> It's like crap attracts asshole guardians.
23:41:16 <zzo38> Patent law should be abolished (in my opinion)
23:41:16 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Even enabling the sruff
23:41:21 <aliseiphone> Patented stuff
23:41:26 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Its shit
23:41:30 <pikhq> Mmm.
23:41:37 <aliseiphone> Compare TeX, OS X.
23:42:11 <cpressey> zzo38: I agree.
23:42:18 <zzo38> Do you think PHIRC is a good IRC client?
23:42:30 <cpressey> zzo38: I've never used it.
23:42:31 <aliseiphone> IP law should be abolished.
23:42:34 <pikhq> aliseiphone: What's amazing is that things fail at rendering *English* text correctly.
23:42:44 <pikhq> This is one of the easiest things to handle right.
23:42:48 <aliseiphone> cpressey: It's zzo38's client.
23:42:58 <zzo38> aliseiphone: But trademark is good thing
23:43:02 <cpressey> aliseiphone: That doesn't change the fact I've never used it.
23:43:05 <zzo38> But patent is bad thing
23:43:13 <aliseiphone> pikhq: aliseOS will get it all right.
23:43:16 <pikhq> The fonts literally have instructions saying "If the following sequence is being asked for, render this glyph instead."
23:43:28 <pikhq> *All the logic for ligatures is given in the font!*
23:43:29 <cpressey> Patents are the most corrupt form of IP. I figure we can start looking at the others after patents are gone.
23:43:36 <aliseiphone> Patents and copyright are evil. Trademarks are good.
23:43:37 <zzo38> cpressey: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/PHIRC/phirc.zip
23:43:40 <pikhq> And that's *all* they have to do!
23:43:47 <pikhq> Follow simple instructions!
23:44:03 <pikhq> But no, of course they can't do that.
23:44:31 <aliseiphone> pikhq: So, i have a pet pipe dream.
23:44:46 <cpressey> zzo38: I'll see if I can get it running (this is not guaranteed)
23:44:52 <aliseiphone> Linux or BSD... with capability security.
23:45:12 <zzo38> cpressey: It requires PHP and PuTTY.
23:45:12 <aliseiphone> How? LD_PRELOAD and overriding syscalls.
23:45:22 <aliseiphone> Run everything as own user.
23:45:22 <pikhq> aliseiphone: No need for LD_PRELOAD.
23:45:25 <cpressey> Er... last I had the stomach to watch FreeBSD dev, they were all about the yammering about capability security.
23:45:26 <pikhq> That's SELinux.
23:45:35 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Fuck SELinux.
23:45:39 <aliseiphone> It's crap.
23:45:48 <aliseiphone> Mine requires no kernel support,
23:45:48 <zzo38> To connect, type in "/C <host> <port>"
23:45:53 <zzo38> Type "/Q" to quit
23:45:56 <aliseiphone> No tedious configuration.
23:46:01 <pikhq> My pipe dream is to have text rendering not suck.
23:46:10 <aliseiphone> s/, $/,/
23:46:12 <zzo38> The space-bar at the start of a line is a shortcut to send a message to the current channel.
23:46:40 <zzo38> If your command is "PASS" it will display the parameter as asterisks (but will still send it as you typed it)
23:46:56 <Slereah> No idea
23:47:00 <Slereah> Oops
23:47:02 <Slereah> Wrong window
23:47:10 <aliseiphone> Or WAS it?
23:47:14 <cpressey> My pipe dream is to have enough spare time to complete my next esolang.
23:47:19 <pikhq> Everyone: y'know TeX? IT DID IT ALL RIGHT.
23:47:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I have TeX installed
23:48:03 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Doing complex dynamic programming every time you resize the window?
23:48:15 <zzo38> I can use TeX to print out C programs
23:48:16 <aliseiphone> reflow is difficult. TeX is batch mode.
23:48:39 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Pleasepleasepleaseplease.
23:48:54 <zzo38> Now Enhanced CWEB will support meta-macros and pre-pre-pre-processor and 'pataprogramming.
23:49:13 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Now try continuous window resizing.
23:49:17 <aliseiphone> Lovely lag...
23:49:27 <zzo38> And then see which people prefer standard CWEB or Enhanced CWEB. (Including Knuth)
23:49:47 * pikhq wants justified text do be done right...
23:49:54 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Oh, and TeX requires the whole global context to work?
23:49:59 <aliseiphone> *work.
23:50:06 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I'm saying use it for inspiration.
23:50:13 <aliseiphone> Impractical for many things like web browsers.
23:50:14 <pikhq> *It renders text correctly*.
23:50:26 <cpressey> No! The status quo works just fine! JUST FINE.
23:50:33 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Using things that are impractical for desktop apps.
23:50:43 <pikhq> Nothing else even seems to attempt to.
23:50:56 <zzo38> I think TeX works, but apparently there is lack of blackboard bold in TeX?
23:50:59 <aliseiphone> Groff :O
23:51:03 <aliseiphone> *:P
23:51:22 <aliseiphone> zzo38: AMSLaTeX has bbold.
23:51:27 <pikhq> Ah, yes. *roff does a decent job.
23:51:29 <aliseiphone> Everyone uses it.
23:51:53 <aliseiphone> Only you use plain TeX :P
23:51:53 <zzo38> But CWEB uses Plain TeX. Is there a way to add it into Plain TeX?
23:52:00 * pikhq would also, while we're at it, like to *purge MS Word from the face of the planet*.
23:52:08 <cpressey> So-called "characters" are obsolete, anyway. The truly advanced among us are already communicating with smudges and quiet yelps.
23:52:15 <aliseiphone> Yes. Steal AMSLaTeX's font.
23:52:18 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I have seen justified text rendered by MS Word. It HURTS.
23:52:20 <aliseiphone> Write command. M
23:52:25 <aliseiphone> *command.
23:52:29 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Indeed.
23:52:34 <pikhq> It actually makes for lines with more space than text sometimes.
23:52:47 <aliseiphone> pikhq: No ligatures either.
23:53:07 <pikhq> Amusingly, typesetting is actually easy to do for CJK...
23:53:10 <pikhq> Mmm, monospace.
23:53:17 <aliseiphone> Lovely seeing "fi" in Century Schoolbook in print. It's like the serifs are raping each other.
23:53:43 <aliseiphone> No ligatures = rape.
23:53:54 <cheater> alise do u know anything about smalltalk?
23:54:03 <aliseiphone> Yes.
23:54:13 <cheater> is the debugger really all it's made out to be?
23:54:19 * Sgeo wonders if he should look at smalltalk again
23:54:27 <aliseiphone> Yes. Almost.
23:54:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
23:54:52 <cheater> what do you mean?
23:54:56 <Sgeo> What really struck me last time is that for some things, there was no syntax other than "do it in the IDE". The IDE itself sent code to an object as text
23:54:58 <aliseiphone> Not in gnu smalltalk obviously but squeak, visualworks yes
23:55:03 <cheater> ohh
23:55:13 <cheater> what other debuggers are comparable to it?
23:55:19 <aliseiphone> Dunno.
23:55:27 <aliseiphone> I hate debuggers.
23:55:35 <cheater> oh, why??
23:55:42 <Sgeo> I remember seeing in Reddit something about some.. VM, I guess? that was simpler than Squeak
23:55:56 <cpressey> Debuggers suck almost universally. Can't say for smalltalk.
23:56:05 <aliseiphone> They irritate me. I prefer good error messages and ... printf.
23:56:18 <aliseiphone> Hey, Dennis Ritchie printf-debugs.
23:56:26 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Clearly, we agree on debuggers as well as Logo.
23:56:33 <cheater> yeah printf debugging is ok, but doesn't always work that well
23:56:41 <cheater> try to printf debug drupal
23:56:44 <cheater> you'll not.
23:56:48 <cpressey> If there was a debugger that wasn't annoying, I'd use it, but there isn't.
23:56:53 <aliseiphone> cpressey: Let's write an OS in Logo without a debugger.
23:57:04 <aliseiphone> cheater: I suggest fuck Drupal.
23:57:06 <cheater> ahahahahhah
23:57:10 <Sgeo> Used to never use debuggers until this large C# project
23:57:11 <cheater> aliseiphone: yes, that's what i did
23:57:19 <cheater> #1 reason why i stopped doing fucking php
23:57:30 <Sgeo> Now I'm addicted
23:57:33 <cheater> Sgeo: why?
23:57:33 <AnMaster> cpressey, to look at a segfault a debugger might be your best option. gdb is quite nice for getting a stack trace in such a situation
23:57:39 <cheater> Sgeo: explain how they were useful
23:57:49 <aliseiphone> I use gdb to fix segfaults in c
23:58:06 <aliseiphone> Because C is shit and likes segfaulting
23:58:11 <Sgeo> For one, don't need to restart the whole program to see something, if I know what I think a problem line will come up, I can set a breakpoint
23:58:13 <cpressey> Using gdb is like nails on a chalkboard
23:58:16 <AnMaster> cpressey, and I can't say gdb ever annoyed me
23:58:24 <AnMaster> cpressey, I disagree but meh
23:58:24 <aliseiphone> Never ever need a debugger in a non-C language.
23:58:32 <cpressey> Using gdb is like nails on a chalkboard while stuck in rush-hour traffic
23:58:40 <aliseiphone> C, need it all the time. But I'm not a bad C coder.
23:58:45 <AnMaster> cpressey, it is better than nothing when you face a segfault
23:58:47 <aliseiphone> Fuck C.
23:59:05 <cheater> what do you mean
23:59:10 <cheater> php is a C language
23:59:18 <aliseiphone> ...
23:59:22 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, s/C/compiled non-purely-functional-language/?
23:59:31 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: No. C.
23:59:40 <aliseiphone> JUST C.
23:59:52 <cpressey> Plan 9 is a C OS
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