00:00:00 <ais523> AnMaster: you are attempting to argue with the facts of a fictional universe using an incorrect argument from RL
00:00:22 <AnMaster> I'm pointing out the origin of the name Bjorn
00:00:23 <ais523> incorrect in that people often do give their children misspelt names
00:00:49 <alise> Bjorn ran into Barack Obama, ex-First Lady of the United States of America, and argued with it for five hours on the subject of whether sap is technically "tree semen" and what the implications of this would be if it were indeed true. They swapped sides every half hour to make it a fair fight, and Bjorn eventually KO'd Barack while they were getting accustomed to their new side of the argument.
00:00:50 <AnMaster> and is more properly spelled with an ö and/or ø
00:00:53 <ais523> your argument is along the lines of "Bjorn can't be named Bjorn because it isn't spelt like that"
00:02:02 <ais523> you might as well argue that alise's nick is wrong because the name has a capital A
00:02:24 <ais523> actually, alise's nick would be a lot more effective with a capital A, I think
00:03:01 <alise> ais523: I like it like this.
00:03:21 <alise> AnMaster: knocked out with blow, esp. in boxing
00:08:39 <AnMaster> alise, oh and sap is more like tree blood
00:08:49 <alise> Well, that's what Bjorn argued, for half the time.
00:09:03 <alise> But you always have to take turns, you know.
00:09:31 <AnMaster> alise, yeah when people do that you know they are arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than arguing for what they believe in. Not that that is wrong
00:09:50 <AnMaster> s/believe in/believe in or think is right/
00:09:51 <ais523> AnMaster: no they don't
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00:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: you missed the metajoke
00:11:36 <alise> Actually, I did a bit of arguing-the-opposite-side with coppro in our Great Copyright Debate.
00:11:51 <alise> I sort of argued for his side of the story to support a sub-conclusion I was making, and then backtracking it later without destroying the sub-conclusion.
00:12:00 <alise> Or at least it is my impression that I did that.
00:12:17 <nooga> what was the name of that game in which the goal was to zero a flag?
00:12:36 <nooga> and two programs were writing the memory, and the language was AFAIR brainfucky
00:12:56 <nooga> i'm trying to google it but with no luck
00:14:32 <HackEgo> babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20750 \ wunderbar_emporium
00:14:40 <alise> Gregor and Goethe/ais523 respectively
00:14:55 <alise> sorry, *Kerim Adyin (marine biologist)
00:15:39 <alise> ais523: goethe wrote this: http://www.fish.washington.edu/seminars/spring_08/aydin.html
00:16:01 <oerjan> nooga: bfjoust is on egobot, if egobot were here
00:16:20 <alise> oerjan: it's on egobot even if egobot isn't here, although what you said doesn't contradict that
00:16:29 <alise> except arguably the common use of if to mean iff in English.
00:16:40 <oerjan> alise: NO IT'S NOT. QUANTUM.
00:18:15 <nooga> i was also looking for some examples of heavy use of haskell interpreter here on channel
00:18:20 <nooga> but logs are hard to grep ;f
00:20:40 <Ilari> Hmm... wunderbar_emporium
00:21:00 <alise> Ilari: some linux exploit that doesn't work.
00:21:36 <ais523> alise: ooh, let me check
00:21:56 <alise> ais523: Kerim Aydin and he's linked to his website which says he's a fisheries research marine biologist
00:22:03 <alise> and has a picture of him that is listed in several other places in such a context
00:22:08 <ais523> I did know he was a marine biologist already
00:22:13 <alise> saying he got his phd from washington university where that page is
00:22:20 <ais523> although he's also worked on translating legal documents
00:23:09 <alise> "Kerim Aydin (marine biologist)" is my Sgeo-meme
00:23:33 <oerjan> nooga: !haskell is alas also on egobot
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00:26:51 <alise> oerjan: at this time? you'll fall into your Norwegian Venice's canal.
00:27:46 <nooga> oerjan: i know that, now i'm trying to find a log that shows its use
00:28:11 <augur> this is really frustrating
00:29:09 <augur> i have this applet that is working, but i dont know where it's getting the code from
00:31:14 <nooga> what was the name of this drink which can *potentially* replace food ?
00:31:47 <pikhq> Sorry, but beer is not a complete protein source.
00:32:02 <pikhq> Add some soy sauce!
00:32:54 <nooga> erm, that vanilla-flavoured one
00:33:04 <augur> ok, seriously, who's a java pseudoexpert
00:33:53 <alise> i'm no java person
00:33:57 <alise> <nooga> what was the name of this drink which can *potentially* replace food ?
00:34:07 <Ilari> nooga: Some of those VLCD drinks (yuck)?
00:34:18 <alise> If you drunk a lot of Ensure Plus, and *trust* those guys...
00:34:25 <alise> Or, if you're ais523, ProSoBee.
00:34:52 <alise> nooga: I don't think you can get Ensure Plus apart from on prescription and I doubt Ensure itself will sustain anyone to a good level (alive, yes, but not healthy and well).
00:34:54 <alise> Also it tastes gross.
00:34:58 <alise> Basically food is the better option here.
00:35:53 <alise> Dr. HJKL and Mr. vi
00:36:10 <nooga> alise: my mom is a pharmacist ;>
00:36:40 <alise> Mm. And you think this makes her a competent nutritionist? The title "nutritionist" doesn't even do that.
00:37:04 <nooga> i'm just extremely curious how does it feel to drink your meal
00:37:09 <pikhq> Who was it here that had completely nerded out about nutrition again?
00:37:21 <nooga> alise: oh come on, it's just a test
00:37:30 <alise> nooga: Well, you won't be able to get Ensure Plus, probably.
00:37:36 <alise> Ensure should be easy.
00:37:55 <alise> nooga: Vanilla Ensure Plus tastes like really overly-sweet but somehow not nice fake vanilla taste. Very horrible. And metallic.
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00:38:04 <alise> They ALL taste vaguely metallic and have a strong metallic aftertaste and they are thick.
00:38:10 <alise> Not thick thick, still liquid, but thick liquid.
00:38:15 <nooga> basically i can get everything, even if it's perscription only
00:38:26 <alise> The chocolate one tastes like kinda gross metalic chocolate.
00:38:29 <nooga> almost everything*
00:38:31 <alise> nooga: So, an irresponsible pharmacist, then.
00:38:32 <pikhq> alise: And how would you know this?
00:38:39 <alise> pikhq: Unit. "Malnutrition".
00:38:42 <pikhq> Also, the metal is probably the iron.
00:38:50 <alise> It's the iron and the five billion other metallic things in there.
00:39:01 <Ilari> Ensure plus: 1400Cal to 100% RDA? Somebody figured out how to do that in <800Cal without involving special drinks...
00:39:06 <pikhq> Yes, but those are in trace, not-tastable amounts for the most part.
00:39:23 <pikhq> There will be a *lot* of iron, though.
00:39:31 <alise> Ilari: No; >1000 kJ.
00:39:49 <alise> One bottle of Ensure Plus is like 330 kcal.
00:39:57 <nooga> alise: i can, but it does not mean that i would
00:40:12 <pikhq> It's got to be having more iron than red meats... *Which are red because of the freaking iron in them*.
00:40:38 <alise> Ilari: But it is a "complete balanced nutritional supplement" so if they didn't get it horribly wrong and your body is relatively normal it should keep you alive.
00:40:42 <Ilari> Some foods are just plain superrior in nutrient density.
00:40:44 <alise> They give it to people with e.g. throat cancer apparently.
00:41:00 <nooga> SEEEMS EXTREMELY COOL
00:41:00 <alise> http://ensure.com/
00:41:06 <alise> They are marketing it as a consumer product.
00:41:13 <alise> That makes me sick.
00:41:36 <pikhq> What, you didn't realise that?
00:41:45 <alise> I knew you could basically just buy it.
00:41:57 <alise> I didn't know they were telling relatively-healthy or on-the-road-to-health people to drink it.
00:42:06 <pikhq> Anyways: Ensure Plus is also given for feeding via feeding tubes.
00:42:11 <pikhq> Since, y'know, it's liquid.
00:42:12 <alise> "Add one delicious Ensure Shake daily to a healthy diet and make a change for the better."
00:42:16 <alise> I want to kill myself now.
00:42:35 <alise> pikhq: They also make specific tube feeds; the anorexic girl was on Jevity for a while.
00:42:37 <pikhq> Yeah, that's been adveertised in the US for, oh... 20 years now, I guess.
00:42:49 <alise> So she lugged around this machine connected into her nose and liquid slowly dripped inside.
00:43:03 <Ilari> I found nutrion facts for Ensure Plus. Doesn't look too healthy... About 20g of sugar and 1g of SFA 5g of PUFA and that's per serving doesn't looke too good.
00:43:05 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, I'd imagine that.
00:43:31 <alise> more than one shake a day
00:43:41 <alise> I was prescribed 2 and I still ate
00:43:43 <pikhq> That's... A hell of a lot of sugar.
00:44:00 <alise> "Get Delicious Ensure Recipes". Oh joy, I wonder if this is the one where they suggest putting the no-flavour (i.e. metal flavour) one on cereal.
00:44:11 <pikhq> I guess because a spoonfull of sugar makes the medicine go down?
00:44:52 <alise> "Fast Hot Chocolate" "Cheddar Turkey Quiche" "Blueberry Breakfast Toast"
00:44:57 <alise> GUYS, ENSURE TASTES HORRIBLE. NOT SURE IF YOU REALISED.
00:45:12 <alise> "Not registered with Ensure.com? Sign up."
00:45:14 <alise> No, I really don't want to.
00:45:31 <alise> [[What are the best food items to carry with me when out shopping and running errands?
00:45:31 <alise> It is important that your daily calorie intake be based on your usual activity level. If you are considerably more active on any given day or are away from home, plan ahead to eat appropriately to manage your food intake. It's best to prepare your own foods so you can control what goes into a meal and avoid hidden calories. On a busy day, carry along one medium apple and a bottle of great-tasting Ensure®.]]
00:45:36 <alise> DRINK ENSURE EVERY DAY, EVERYONE.
00:46:05 <pikhq> ... I cannot imagine that being a good idea.
00:46:55 <alise> Ilari: http://ensure.com/ask-a-nutritionist/nutrition-faq Quick, debunk it all.
00:47:10 <pikhq> Surely the digestive system dislikes nothing-but-nutrition for long periods of time?
00:47:21 <alise> "Ensure and Ensure Plus® got a makeover. The flavors you love will soon be in an all-new bottle."
00:47:24 <alise> Gee golly jeepers.
00:47:36 <alise> pikhq: It has fibre in I think. Or at least some form of it does.
00:47:39 <alise> So, yay, Ensure poop.
00:47:46 <alise> "Rich Dark Chocolate Ensure Hits Shelves
00:47:46 <alise> The wait is over! Get healthy and stay healthy the delicious way from the nutrition in Rich Dark Chocolate Ensure."
00:47:56 <nooga> intestines enjoy processing poo
00:48:21 <Ilari> I defintely would not use ensure plus as part of a weight-loss diet. It could work for weight gain diet, but I consider use for even that too dangerous.
00:48:24 <alise> Ilari: http://ensure.com/products/ensure-plus
00:48:31 <alise> Ilari: the nutrition stuff from the source
00:48:34 <alise> lol "homemade vanilla"
00:48:37 <alise> they sure have spiced up the product names
00:48:44 <pikhq> alise: It probably has some of that 'fiber powder' bullshit.
00:48:46 <alise> Ilari: yeah for me it was weight gain
00:49:01 <pikhq> (which is only technically fiber; doesn't really help digestion much)
00:49:16 <alise> pikhq: "Dietary fibre"
00:49:23 <alise> *fiber; darned Americans.
00:49:24 <nooga> maybe it's because there
00:49:34 <nooga> 's barely anything to digest
00:49:41 <pikhq> alise: Yes; that's called "bullshit".
00:49:49 <pikhq> Figurative, not literal.
00:50:17 <alise> Has anyone pirate-released a TV series or movie in full 1080p yet? I presume so, but I've never seen it.
00:50:28 <pikhq> "Surprise — neither. Yes, it may be a trick question, but because nearly 100% of their calories are derived from fat, neither butter nor margarine is the best choice for cooking." AAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH
00:50:40 <pikhq> "Which is healthier for cooking: butter or margarine?"
00:51:00 <pikhq> Somebody fails at fucking nutrition.
00:51:25 <pikhq> alise: They've been doing Bluray dumps for a while now.
00:51:36 <alise> "A or B; which is better?" "C!"
00:51:47 <alise> pikhq: Isn't Blu-Ray 1080i?
00:52:04 <pikhq> "Is soy sauce a good source for soy protein?
00:52:05 <pikhq> Although soy sauce is a product of the soybean (fermented soy) and tends to liven up many of our favorite dishes, it contains only 1 to 2 grams of soy protein per tablespoon and is high in sodium. If it's soy protein you're looking for, good sources include soy burgers, soymilk, and isolated soy protein powders.
00:52:14 <alise> pikhq: Any major 1080p releases yet?
00:52:27 <Ilari> Heh... I searched Fineli for foods with most Folic acid per mass. Liver, Liver, yeast, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, liver, wheat germ, liver, kidney, kidney, liver, liver, liver...
00:53:03 <alise> Ilari: So, all plants, obviously.
00:53:09 <alise> As we all know, liver is a plant.
00:53:12 <pikhq> WRONG ANSWER. Soy sauce is not a good source of protein, but you want some good sources of protein from soy? Not stupid, fecking retarded, processed "soy protein" BS.
00:53:33 <alise> pikhq: So, how big are H.264 Blu-Ray rips?
00:53:39 <pikhq> Soy milk. Tofu. Miso. Soy *beans* (roast and salt them, mmm delicious). Processed soy protein is... Not worth-while.
00:53:43 <alise> Awesome GiB or ORGASMIC ON-SCREEN QUALITY GiB?
00:53:57 <alise> pikhq: Dammit why aren't disks cheaper.
00:54:04 <alise> I need a 10 TiB disk.
00:54:10 <alise> Well. 10 TB would work too.
00:54:32 <pikhq> Argh. Blu-ray tops out at 1080i for 60fps content.
00:55:04 <pikhq> It's 1080p for 24fps stuff.
00:55:19 <pikhq> As it so happens, almost all films are 24fps.
00:55:40 <alise> pikhq: 1080p 60fps. Yes sir, yes I do want it sir.
00:55:43 <pikhq> And a very large number of (American) TV shows.
00:55:48 <Ilari> And if one would take bioaviability into consideration, that wheat germ could be sent far back.
00:57:13 <alise> pikhq: So, how are the quality of Blu-Ray rips? You see, there is a rather nice 37" 1080p LG TV in this house and I would like to experience its gloriousness.
00:57:26 <pikhq> alise: So, this is somehow meant as a food replacement, while basically being a very crappy milkshake with a vitamin pill dumped in.
00:57:42 <pikhq> alise: Blu-Ray dumps are *dumps of the bitstream on the disc*, after being encoded.
00:57:55 <alise> pikhq: Okay, rephrase.
00:58:24 <alise> pikhq: Can you get Blu-Ray rips in .mkv? What kinda specs do I need to decode them? How good are Blu-Ray films as far as picture quality goes?
00:58:35 <alise> pikhq: Well, I know it is "possible" to survive on Ensure Plus since patients who cannot eat do.
00:59:32 <nooga> worst language after C++ and Java that became popular
00:59:39 <pikhq> alise: Almost certainly, a fairly-decent modern system, and the picture quality varies greatly based on whether or not the encoder of the disc was an idiot.
00:59:53 <nooga> nno, actually it's the first, before C++ and Java
00:59:54 <pikhq> alise: You can get really-stupidly encoded MPEG-2 or wonderfully encoded x264.
01:00:13 <alise> pikhq: Any things-to-avoid wrt MPEG-2?
01:00:21 <pikhq> So, anywhere from "What the hell this is shit" to "... THE BEAUTY!!!"
01:00:24 <alise> Wonderfully encoded H.264 sounds good. I doubt the encoders used x264.
01:00:28 <alise> If it's commercial in any way.
01:00:42 <pikhq> alise: Not really; if it's even so much as well-encoded MPEG-2 it should actually be quite nice.
01:00:59 <alise> Yeah, but ... H.264.
01:01:06 <alise> I want to experience full, 1080p GLORY.
01:01:33 <pikhq> I mean, the video stream is 40 Mbit/s.
01:02:05 <pikhq> This is at the point where well-encoded MPEG-2 achieves transparency.
01:02:15 <nooga> http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/Research/cryptochrome/ <- kinda cool piece of research
01:02:53 <alise> pikhq: Whereas H.264 becomes invisible.
01:02:55 <pikhq> (for comparison, OTA HD in the US is 19 Mbit/s per physical channel, and that is often split into two or more virtual channels.)
01:04:31 <alise> pikhq: See, right now that TV is plugged into a Sky (the satellite TV service in Britain) box via /SCART/.
01:04:45 <alise> Why? Because you need Sky HD to get HDMI. This costs >£100 for the box and like £10 or more a month.
01:04:49 <pikhq> alise: THE RAPE! THE EYERAPE!
01:04:58 <alise> Conclusion: Fuck that shit. Bring on the downloads.
01:05:19 <alise> pikhq: Ehh, on actual SDTV, which is low-quality anyway, it's not noticeable.
01:05:22 <alise> Only in the menu interface.
01:06:52 <pikhq> Might I suggest Freeview? (surely they have HD on Freeview?) :P
01:07:41 <pikhq> (and thereby avoid subsidizing Murdock's murder of journalism)
01:07:59 <alise> pikhq: Freeview ... lacks a lot of channels that are actually worth watching.
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01:08:13 <alise> Worth watching as far as TV goes that is.
01:08:16 <alise> Which is not much at all.
01:08:19 <pikhq> alise: Rupert. Fucking. Murdoch.
01:08:30 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I know. You do realise Sky own a chunk of Freeview?
01:08:41 <alise> pikhq: Besides, WE DON'T RECEIVE FREEVIEW HERE.
01:08:45 <alise> So we have no choice.
01:08:49 <pikhq> Yes, yes, but you don't pay for it. And waitwhat?
01:08:59 <ais523> aren't all the Freeview channels received via Sky?
01:09:02 <ais523> they have no reason not to, after all
01:09:08 <alise> ais523: er, no, via the old ondigital network
01:09:15 <alise> oh, you mean the satellite?
01:09:17 <alise> probably, who knows
01:09:43 <alise> pikhq: Freeview HD has recently been released, but ...
01:09:59 <alise> I mean, there's not exactly Discovery on Freeview. Or Sky Movies.
01:10:07 <alise> If you're gonna get HD ...
01:10:15 <alise> ... but this is all moot, downloading ist he far superior option.
01:10:20 <pikhq> alise: So... The UK is worse at HD than the US. Good to know.
01:10:24 <pikhq> WE'RE SUPERIOR AT SOMETHING!
01:10:59 <pikhq> (it is, nowadays, nearly impossible to not receive HD in the US. You have to go to the Alaska/Russia border or something crazy like that.)
01:11:30 <alise> pikhq: You also switched over to digital TV in, like, the blink of an eyelid and handled the transition almost perfectly.
01:11:47 <alise> We're doing it over the course of 2007 to 2012, slowly, with a lot of complaints, setbacks, mishaps and public confusion.
01:12:01 <pikhq> alise: Not really. We'd been broadcasting in digital for about a decade prior.
01:12:14 <pikhq> Also, most people don't watch TV OTA. Making it easy.
01:12:30 <oerjan> alise: so we can all expect a lot of hilarity when the uk finally decides to switch to right hand side driving?
01:12:49 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, they'll switch a county at a time.
01:13:03 <pikhq> And have transition points at the borders of counties.
01:13:05 * oerjan has heard some old jokes from when sweden did so
01:13:15 <alise> YOU ARE NOW ENTERING A RIGHT-SIDE ZONE.
01:13:44 <alise> oerjan: actually that'd never happen
01:13:49 <alise> along with switching to the euro
01:14:15 <pikhq> Guy Fawkes would need to rise from the grave and finish off Parliament first.
01:14:29 <pikhq> And then fail at bringing back full-on monarchy.
01:14:36 <pikhq> Leaving the country in total chaos.
01:14:50 <nooga> i have problems with crossing a street in the UK
01:14:56 <nooga> not to mention driving a car
01:15:11 <oerjan> remember, remember, eternal september, or wasn't that how it went
01:15:46 <alise> Remember, remember, the fifth of November / Gunpowder, treason and plot. / I see no reason why gunpowder treason / Should ever be forgot.
01:15:47 <pikhq> Remember remember the Fifth of November, the gunpowder treason and plot.
01:16:05 <nooga> i heard that swedish switched from LHD to RHD in 50's
01:16:09 * oerjan thinks someone didn't notice he was joking
01:16:21 <alise> Remember, remember, eternal September / newbies smoking pot. / I see no reason why eternal unreason / should ever be forgot.
01:16:40 <nooga> but they;ve had riving wheels on the proper side all the time
01:16:44 <pikhq> alise: Anyways. People in the UK must really hate how that darned movie made people quote that without having the foggiest clue what it meant.
01:16:56 <oerjan> and we norwegians joked about how they'd switch only the trucks initially
01:17:11 <alise> pikhq: Wait, which movie?
01:17:37 <alise> oerjan: So which is the best Scandinavian country, Sweden or Finland?
01:17:40 <pikhq> alise: V for Vendetta
01:17:41 <AnMaster> <alise> Remember, remember, eternal September / newbies smoking pot. / I see no reason why eternal unreason / should ever be forgot. <-- ooh nice
01:17:46 <alise> AnMaster: No, horrible.
01:17:46 * oerjan actually learned that from reading sandman. he thinks.
01:18:09 <alise> pikhq: Same guy as did Watchmen, I believe?
01:18:20 <AnMaster> <nooga> i heard that swedish switched from LHD to RHD in 50's <-- if talking about driving. Then yes
01:18:41 <alise> No, we're talking about rabbit haemorrhagic disease.
01:18:54 <pikhq> alise: The comic was by the same guy who did Watchmen and Swamp Thing.
01:18:55 <alise> And large helical devicse.
01:18:59 <alise> pikhq: I mean the film.
01:19:05 <oerjan> alise: i have never been to finland, actually
01:19:12 <alise> I know who Alan Moore is.
01:19:21 <Sgeo> alise, did you ever get around to reading TMoPI?
01:19:23 <pikhq> Wachowski Brothers.
01:19:39 <Ilari> Wonder what only drinking few cans (just enough to break that 1400Cal limit) would do... Probably wouldn't be fun to watch (unless you are sadist).
01:19:48 <alise> oerjan: That was not my desired response.
01:20:08 <oerjan> well finland isn't scandinavian, either :D
01:20:20 <alise> "The filmmakers removed many of the anarchist themes and drug references present in the original story and also altered the political message to what they believed would be more relevant to a 2006 audience."
01:20:27 <AnMaster> alise, why would that line be horrible
01:20:39 <alise> AnMaster: I invented it on the spot and I am no poet.
01:20:59 <Ilari> If one wants horror stories about diets gone horribly wrong, then various accounts of Minnesota starvation experiment are good...
01:21:22 <alise> pikhq: Quick! Think of words!
01:21:30 <alise> lol @ Minnesota starvation experiment
01:21:36 <pikhq> Japan has both RHD and LHD commonly used.
01:21:38 <oerjan> alise: the sandman story i mentioned was about how shakespeare invented (half of) the initial poem. it wasn't intended to be good :)
01:21:39 <alise> "I know! Let's STARVE people. ...for SCIENCE, of course."
01:21:41 <pikhq> Erm, RHD and LHD *vehicles*.
01:21:53 <pikhq> It's all LHD *roads* of course.
01:22:00 <alise> pikhq: aww I almost got interested
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01:22:06 <alise> "Whoops, *swerve*"
01:22:13 <alise> oerjan: I just lost context
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01:22:30 <alise> AnMaster: What, a poet?
01:22:35 <alise> Uh, thanks. You have horrible taste in poetry.
01:22:38 <Ilari> Actually, it was only semi-starvation. But the results were quite horrid...
01:22:47 <AnMaster> alise, try making a poem about a bridge or something next ;P
01:22:59 <AnMaster> that way you HAVE to be better than the worst case
01:23:06 <pikhq> alise: Okinawa Prefecture was RHD from 1945 to 1978, unlike the rest of Japan.
01:23:12 <pikhq> alise: "Whoops, *swerve*"
01:23:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: hey i was going to link to that
01:23:36 <alise> oerjan: link to what?
01:23:50 <pikhq> (also, that's a fucking polyglot. Effs yes.)
01:24:15 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tay_Bridge_Disaster
01:24:23 <pikhq> (okinawaken in Japanese, uchinaaken in Okinawan)
01:24:38 <Sgeo> " (one subject amputated three fingers of his hand with an axe, though the subject was unsure if he had done so intentionally or accidentally)"
01:25:17 <Sgeo> Remind me to not even volunteer for something that might have damaging psychological effects
01:25:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is interesting to note he starts out trying to make it rhyme and then gives up halfway through each of those quotes
01:25:32 <alise> AnMaster: Hell, it's easy enough to write poetry worse than that.
01:25:38 <AnMaster> well actually he only really gives up in the second one
01:25:42 <Sgeo> I already know that the only way I'll volunteer for a drug trial is if I know I'll die otherwise
01:26:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: um i actually suspect he thought they _did_ rhyme
01:26:49 <pikhq> alise: Mwahahahah.
01:27:00 <pikhq> alise: Some UK military bases are right-hand drive.
01:27:29 <AnMaster> For the stronger we our houses build
01:27:29 <AnMaster> The less chance we have of being killed"
01:27:43 <alise> AnMaster: Behold, a worse poem about a bridge: http://pastie.org/1057838.txt?key=ods2djouutsgcvmpp2a
01:27:48 <alise> Build / killed rhymes.
01:27:51 <alise> Or at least, almost rhymes.
01:28:23 <AnMaster> alise, exactly. It doesn't actually rhyme. Just nearly so
01:28:28 <pikhq> alise: Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Savoy-court-drive-right-out.JPG
01:28:55 <alise> AnMaster: Or are you actually going to say http://pastie.org/1057838.txt?key=ods2djouutsgcvmpp2a is better than Tay Bridge Disaster?
01:29:09 <AnMaster> alise, hm okay, but that doesn't count. You intended to write it badly
01:29:20 <AnMaster> the point of the original one was that it wasn't intended to be bad
01:29:27 <alise> Well, uh, then I surrender.
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01:29:45 <AnMaster> alise, you could write better than The Tay Bridge Disaster if you tried to
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01:30:23 <alise> "McGonagall also considered himself an actor, although the theatre where he performed, Mr Giles' Theatre, would let him perform the title role in Macbeth only if he paid for the privilege in advance. Their caution proved ill-founded, as the theatre was filled with friends and fellow workers, anxious to see what they correctly predicted to be an amusing disaster. Although the play should have ended with Macbeth's death at the hands of Macduff, McGonagall be
01:30:23 <alise> lieved that the actor playing Macduff was trying to upstage him, and so refused to die."
01:32:00 <AnMaster> btw I wonder what upstage means
01:32:16 <alise> Pah, they link to Wesley Willis in the See Also section. Wesley Willis is far more of a poet!
01:33:16 <alise> "He is my greatest singer
01:33:16 <alise> He was my kind of guy
01:33:16 <alise> He can really rock
01:33:16 <alise> He can rock this place apart" --Wesley Willis, "Elvis Presley"
01:33:23 -!- iamcal has quit.
01:33:51 <alise> "Play that rock lead guitar
01:33:51 <alise> Rock it like a magikist
01:33:51 <alise> Rock and roll is the joyride music
01:33:51 <alise> Whip that snow leopard's ass
01:33:52 <alise> Rock Saddam Hussein's ass (x2)" -- Wesley Willis, "Rock Saddam Hussein's Ass"
01:33:58 <alise> How can you deny the ... sheer genius?
01:34:31 <AnMaster> not starwars holiday special yet
01:34:35 <alise> And I will merely link to the lyrics of "I'm Sorry That I Got Fat (i Will Slim Down)":
01:34:37 <alise> http://www.lyricstime.com/wesley-willis-i-m-sorry-that-i-got-fat-i-will-slim-down-lyrics.html
01:34:47 -!- alise has left (?).
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01:35:19 <alise> AnMaster: Do note that Wesley Willis was a severe schizophrenic who usually played random crap over a built-in keyboard demo track and basically yelled over it.
01:35:23 <AnMaster> alise, okay THAT is starwars holiday special quality
01:35:53 <alise> [["Warhellride" is a term used by Willis to describe his encounters with "demons," which occurred mainly on the CTA bus lines in Chicago. Willis, diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, often claimed that demons were trying to ruin his "Harmony Joy Music" or "Harmony Joy Rides". Willis also used the term to describe general harassment: In one of his songs he says, "He gave me a yelldown warhellride." When asked about the demons or Warhellri
01:35:54 <alise> des, Willis would often comment that he was trying to "stay the hell out of prison" by "not hitting people in the street with bricks." In several songs, both terms are used openly. One of Willis' songs is entitled "I Deserve a Warhellride".]]
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01:40:00 <alise> pikhq: Any Minion progress? >_>
01:41:38 <alise> pikhq: WELL PROGRESS IT.
01:42:10 <pikhq> TI SSERGORP LLEW, YOURSELF!
01:42:17 <alise> pikhq: Fine, I'll typeset a book in Minion. >_>
01:42:34 <alise> But which book, I wonder.
01:42:41 <pikhq> No, no, no, noiniM.
01:42:57 <pikhq> Hmm... RTL English...
01:43:16 <pikhq> ...hsilgnE LTR ...mmH
01:43:52 <alise> This laptop is awesome. Buy this laptop.
01:44:27 <pikhq> Kawatakunai kedo...
01:45:21 <pikhq> Hmm. Food may be good to eat.
01:45:53 <alise> AnMaster: A typeface.
01:46:17 <pikhq> alise: That attitude causes Ensure Plus.
01:46:19 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/MinionPro.svg
01:46:24 <alise> Not so good at the big size there. Reduce it a little bit.
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01:46:58 <alise> pikhq: Suggest a book to typeset!
01:47:11 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/3rCwy.jpg
01:47:23 <pikhq> alise: Hmm... Beowulf.
01:47:41 <alise> pikhq: Hmm. I'm thinking "no".
01:47:41 <pikhq> More of an epic, though.
01:47:56 <AnMaster> <alise> http://i.imgur.com/3rCwy.jpg <-- wtf
01:47:57 <alise> Poetry is something I've never done and ... well ... I don't really like Beowulf.
01:48:04 <alise> AnMaster: you've not seen that video?
01:48:24 <alise> it's called poking fun
01:48:41 <AnMaster> they have that sort of humour?
01:48:46 <pikhq> Yes, Microsoft is not 100% soulless.
01:48:55 <alise> AnMaster: Departments of Microsoft can be nice.
01:48:56 <pikhq> It takes a soul to create that much agony.
01:48:59 <alise> Microsoft itself sucks.
01:49:07 <pikhq> A very brutally twisted soul, mind, but still.
01:49:08 <alise> AnMaster: I mean, GHC is basically developed by Microsoft Research.
01:49:19 <alise> Simon Peyton Jones, what's that other guy, both work for Microsoft Research.
01:49:23 <AnMaster> alise, yes but that is MSDN not MS Research
01:49:42 <alise> Making one reference doesn't mean they're not crazy, you know.
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01:51:26 <alise> pikhq: I'd set Finnegans Wake, but the possibility of even one error...
01:53:13 <pikhq> alise: Not public domain.
01:53:40 <alise> pikhq: I don't give a damn.
01:53:53 <pikhq> http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/decss-haiku.txt
01:53:59 <alise> pikhq: So, tell me, why isn't linux32 working?
01:54:05 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/Downloads$ sudo linux32 ./AdbeRdr9.3.3-1_i486linux_enu.bin
01:54:05 <alise> linux32: ./AdbeRdr9.3.3-1_i486linux_enu.bin: No such file or directory
01:55:06 <pikhq> alise: How bizarre.
01:55:15 <pikhq> Also, you don't need linux32 to run a 32-bit binary.
01:55:23 <alise> pikhq: Well, it doesn't work without.
01:55:31 <alise> sudo: unable to execute ./AdbeRdr9.3.3-1_i486linux_enu.bin: No such file or directory
01:55:39 <alise> ^?ELF^A^A^A^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^B^@^C^@^
01:55:42 <alise> So it's a normal ELF.
01:56:02 <pikhq> Could you objdump that?
01:57:14 <pikhq> Hmm. Most likely thing missing is the appropriate dynamic linker. Sure you've got 32-bit libs installed?
02:00:04 <Gregor> My friend and his boyfriend and their picture of them dressed as Mario and Luigi is slash-ing my inner child to death waaaaaaah
02:00:42 <ais523> alise: I take it the file actually exists?
02:01:03 <alise> ais523: Yes... yes it does.
02:01:07 <alise> pikhq: No. Not sure. Know the Debian package?
02:01:17 <alise> Gregor: Which usage of the term slash are we using here?
02:01:18 <pikhq> alise: objdump objdump objdump.
02:01:26 <pikhq> alise: Also objdump objdump objdump.
02:01:31 <Gregor> alise: Hence the hyphen :P
02:02:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Kirk/Spock THERE GOES YOUR INNER CHILD
02:02:23 <Gregor> pikhq: That's substantially less of an issue because THEY'RE NOT BROTHERS.
02:02:52 <alise> The term is "wincest" now I believe, so you have nothing to worry about.
02:03:03 <pikhq> Gregor: But that is the sole cause of all slash!
02:03:29 <Gregor> *sobs quietly to self in the fetal position*
02:03:47 <alise> THE FETAL POSITION MAKES MOTHERS SEXUALLY AROUSED*
02:05:58 <Gregor> pikhq: How are you with writing really annoying server-side code (PHP/Python/whatever, SQL, whatever) to fit with really-annoying client-side code mockups? X-P
02:06:16 <alise> Gregor: Oh sure, don't ask the INSTITUTIONALISED ORPHAN* first.
02:06:19 <alise> *Not actually an orphan.
02:06:44 <Gregor> alise: I was going to ask you after a week of pestering pikhq and getting no result!
02:06:58 <Gregor> You're just lower on my "pester-and-get-no-result" list.
02:07:04 <alise> This is why we can never be lovers. :|
02:07:10 <alise> Being second on the list.
02:07:14 <alise> IT IS UNACCEPTABLE FOR AN ORPHAN.
02:07:20 <alise> Orphans have an important desire to be first in everything.
02:07:53 <Gregor> pikhq: That is not a valid answer!
02:08:13 <pikhq> Gregor: Then mu I say, 無!
02:09:18 <Gregor> alise: How are you with writing really annoying server-side code (PHP/Python/whatever, SQL, whatever) to fit with really-annoying client-side code mockups? X-P
02:09:52 <alise> Gregor: Good, but I sort of kind of don't want to do it. ...at least not without an amount of money with which to buy booze to drown out my subsequent sorrow.
02:10:37 <Gregor> Are you even old enough to drink and hit on semianonymous guys in chat rooms *glares*
02:10:56 <alise> Also, you have a crazy definition of semianonymous :P
02:10:58 <pikhq> Gregor: In Germany.
02:11:27 <alise> Gregor: We know your real name, what university you go to, and what you look like.
02:11:31 <alise> You are not anonymous in any way :P
02:11:36 <Gregor> Hence pseudoanonymous.
02:11:46 <alise> How are you even that?
02:11:50 <alise> Your name is YOUR NAME.
02:11:58 <Gregor> Hm, OK, fair enough X-D
02:12:06 <Gregor> I guess I don't even have a false pretense of anonymity.
02:12:14 -!- Gregor has changed nick to CouldBeGregorOrN.
02:12:22 -!- CouldBeGregorOrN has changed nick to ProbablyNotGrego.
02:12:34 -!- ProbablyNotGrego has changed nick to GRAGGORSMASH.
02:13:22 <alise> Graggor Smash Brothers
02:13:34 -!- GRAGGORSMASH has changed nick to Gregor.
02:14:51 <alise> I still think the Armstrong/Aldrin was the best slash ever.
02:15:48 <oerjan> a bit out of this world, i expect
02:16:57 <alise> pikhq: Oh my word Minion for LaTeX is beautiful.
02:17:14 <alise> It... it just... it just looks perfect.
02:17:30 <Ilari> Hmm... New instructions to implement: Read code memory, write code memory and append code memory. :-)
02:18:39 <pikhq> alise: BTW, I'm sure there's better.
02:18:47 <alise> pikhq: Typefaces? It's all relative.
02:18:58 <alise> Minion is a fine typeface. For god's sake, the Elements of Typographical Style is set in it.
02:19:02 <alise> You can't get much more approved than that.
02:19:16 <alise> pikhq: Here, look at this PDF produced with LaTeX and Minion Pro.
02:19:19 <alise> http://filebin.ca/tyykob/MinionPro.pdf
02:19:22 <alise> Tell me it's not amazing.
02:21:04 <Ilari> Hmm... With those code code memory operators, I don't need swap operators for TCness. Except that TCness with code memory operators is a lot more difficult than with swap operators. :-)
02:21:38 <pikhq> alise: That is not amazing. That is Beauty Incarnate.
02:21:57 <alise> pikhq: BTW, you can just copy-paste the commands at http://lglinux.blogspot.com/2007/09/myriad-and-minion-for-latex.html, except you have to adjust the Adobe Reader directory two times.
02:22:06 <alise> (After running through the Adobe Reader installer.)
02:22:35 <Ilari> Since code memory is unbounded in size...
02:22:50 <Ilari> But one can access only current window.
02:23:36 * pikhq loves him some text figures
02:24:00 <Ilari> So in order to allow unbounded memory, one would have to copy code around.
02:24:01 <alise> pikhq: But you can have lining figures /in math mode only/!
02:24:10 <Sgeo> Apparently there's a tornado watch for where I live
02:24:21 <pikhq> That's where lining figures belong.
02:24:27 <Sgeo> My dad says that it's unlikely that there would be a tornado, and even if there is, the basement wouldn't help
02:25:29 <alise> My dad says your dad says a lot of things.
02:25:45 <Sgeo> He says it's not the right type of shelter
02:26:31 <pikhq> Your dad says a lot of stupid things.
02:26:46 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to go down there anyway
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02:27:10 <alise> pikhq: Suggest a book for me to typeset!
02:27:36 <pikhq> alise: Name to me some authors you like.
02:28:04 <pikhq> PD text is findable.
02:28:10 <alise> Mm, too many to list. I'm mainly looking for something to do, really.
02:28:13 <alise> I care not for copyright.
02:28:28 <Gregor> "Maybe you could try homeopathy to fix your botched nose job." "Maybe you could try homeopathy to fix your irrational belief in things that have no scientific basis."
02:28:32 <alise> I wonder if Alice's Adventures in Wonderland would go with Minion... no. (I gotta typeset it /some/time.)
02:28:41 <pikhq> Okay, then. The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect.
02:28:47 <alise> pikhq: I'd rather read it first.
02:28:52 <pikhq> What *would* be appropriate for Adventures in Wonderland
02:29:02 <alise> pikhq: When I'm not tired. When I'm discharged.
02:29:21 <alise> pikhq: Quick, what's that wonderful serif Japanese font again?
02:29:22 <pikhq> alise: Origin of Species?
02:29:39 <pikhq> alise: Serif? Hmm. Sazanami? Takao?
02:29:41 <alise> No, that's not a font. :P
02:29:51 <alise> pikhq: Hmm ... what was that one that was common on Linux? I forget.
02:30:02 <alise> Oh, is that Takao?
02:30:17 <pikhq> I named two such fonts.
02:30:31 <alise> What's that one that's... grr, I forget.
02:30:48 <alise> Is Kochi or Takao better?
02:30:58 <pikhq> I don't recall, actually.
02:31:18 * pikhq shall find type samples again
02:32:27 <Sgeo> My dad suggested that the air in the basement might not be so great
02:32:33 <alise> Sgeo: My dad! My dad! My dad!
02:33:07 <pikhq> alise: Actually, Bitstream Cyberbit has some really nice Japanese glyphs.
02:33:46 <Sgeo> I don't want to breath unhealthy air if the place affords no protection
02:35:42 <pikhq> alise: Sazanami Mincho and Kochi Mincho appear to be about on par, glyph-quality wise.
02:35:48 <Sgeo> Maybe if I keep some sort of alert thing open to warn me if it becomes a warning...
02:35:55 <pikhq> They also both include Opentype tables for vertical text.
02:36:03 <Sgeo> As long as I keep my shoes on, I should be able to quickly go into the basement
02:36:20 <pikhq> Sadly, I don't know how to get good CJK typesetting going
02:36:28 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/malkovich
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02:37:39 <pikhq> My mind has just been blown...
02:37:48 <pikhq> Emacs supports multiple character sets in the same text file.
02:37:56 <pikhq> My God that's... Wow.
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02:38:10 <pikhq> alise: It's most useful for non-Unicode TeX.
02:38:29 -!- wareya has joined.
02:38:29 <pikhq> It'll switch its character set parsing based on which language you told TeX to use.
02:38:57 <pikhq> Getting you multilingual text without Unicode. Clever, if bizarre.
02:40:27 * Sgeo needs an easy way to stay alert for severe weather warnings
02:41:08 <Sgeo> WeatherBug for Android shows me a Tornado Watch for Pennsylvania
02:41:10 <Sgeo> Utterly useless
02:41:19 <alise> Excelsior, brilliant, diamond, pearl; agate, nonpareil, mignonette and minion; brevier, burgeois, long primer and small pica; pica, english, great primer, and double pica; double english, double great primer, french canon and five line pica; and six line pica, and eight line pica.
02:41:49 <cheater99> can you recommend a good book for it that isn't K&R
02:43:05 <Sgeo> I'm planning on writing a host for a Lua interpreter in C
02:43:36 <alise> now how do i tell adobe reader NOT TO BE DEFAULT PDF READER.
02:44:18 <Sgeo> Might rawaw be a good name for a table that holds the AW functions?
02:46:07 <Sgeo> alise, why not?
02:46:52 <alise> because of fascism
02:47:41 <alise> pikhq: how did you create the title of your The Time Machine again?
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03:09:45 <cheater99> alise: can you recommend a good book for it that isn't K&R
03:10:31 <alise> No; there are no others. Explain your problem with K&R.
03:14:06 <ais523> we need a K&R third edition
03:16:27 <alise> c89 is fine, c99 is just a few things to learn
03:16:33 <alise> K&R2 plus just ... googling c99 should do it
03:16:53 <alise> ais523: i don't think the inventors of C actually really like c99 that much.
03:17:00 <alise> so K&R3 won't ever happen
03:17:05 <ais523> C99 was designed by committee
03:17:17 <alise> What to typeset, what to typeset...
03:17:18 <AnMaster> some of the stuff in it is fairly good though
03:17:43 <alise> It's alright but it's much less of a coherent language than C89.
03:17:47 <alise> It feels half-done.
03:18:10 <AnMaster> alise, what about % behaviour for negative numbers?
03:19:06 <AnMaster> and also // is convenient. Oh and stdint.h is a *very* good idea for portability
03:19:11 <alise> See, I don't even know anything about that. I don't believe I've ever died of it.
03:19:17 <alise> // may be convenient but it's ugly.
03:19:25 <alise> stdint is yet another header file, big deal, we know how to learn those
03:19:38 <alise> urgh, they're working on C1X
03:19:40 <ais523> C99 has a bunch of useful headers, actually
03:19:47 <alise> # Alignment specification (_Align specifier, alignof operator, aligned_alloc function)
03:19:48 <alise> # Multithreading support (_Thread_local storage-class specifier, <threads.h> header including thread creation/management functions, mutex, condition variable and thread-specific storage functionality)
03:19:52 <alise> _Hooray _Im _So _Excited
03:20:04 <AnMaster> alise, if you need to read exactly a 32-bit int from a file you have some problems in C89
03:20:12 <ais523> hmm, standardising that would have to be a pain
03:20:13 <Ilari> Fun... Got smartcard and smartcard reader. The smartcard reader is compatible. The smartcard itself isn't.
03:20:25 <ais523> AnMaster: you can't do that anyway without knowing the endianness
03:20:38 * alise reluctantly installs Skype.
03:20:43 <AnMaster> alise, alignment is useful for kernel/embedded
03:20:46 <ais523> if you have an "exactly a 32-bit int", whatever's forcing it 32-bit is probably forcing a particular endianness at the same time
03:20:54 <alise> AnMaster: _I _Know
03:20:56 <ais523> otherwise you'd have "a native int" and not care about the 32-bit-ness
03:20:58 <alise> AnMaster: _Fuck _The _Committee
03:21:06 <AnMaster> alise, what is up with the leading underscores
03:21:16 <alise> AnMaster: _C99 _Onwards _Do _This _For _All _Their _New _Names
03:21:26 <alise> _See: _Bool, _Align, _Thread_local
03:21:32 <alise> _Isn't _It _Wonderful?
03:21:50 <AnMaster> alise, stdbool.h has typedef _Bool bool though
03:21:57 <alise> Yay, header files.
03:22:05 <alise> Because reserving "bool" would be basically /murder/.
03:22:16 <AnMaster> alise, it would break backward compat
03:22:37 <alise> In fact I feel a tear coming on. Aww.
03:22:42 <AnMaster> they should add directories before threads
03:22:54 <AnMaster> now it is getting just pure ridiculous
03:23:07 <alise> But dude, SMP GigamegaMUMA.
03:24:29 <Ilari> AnMaster: Whatever OS I have.
03:25:03 <alise> "I'm not even sure!"
03:25:24 <Ilari> (Debian Sqeeze on x64).
03:34:41 <pikhq> Nothing does vertical text right.
03:34:55 <pikhq> Granted, it's not *needed* for Japanese. It'd just be nice.
03:35:07 <alise> Quick! Someone name a short novel they want typesotten.
03:37:35 <alise> Must be in English, mind. (or have an English translation, of course) :P
03:38:11 <pikhq> Darn it; you should totally do Genji Monogatari.
03:38:38 <pikhq> It is the first novel.
03:40:19 <alise> Arguable. Anyway I don't want to.
03:41:06 <pikhq> How do you feel about Swift?
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03:42:42 <pikhq> If you like, then: "Travels into Several Remote Nations of the World, in Four Parts. By Lemuel Gulliver, First a Surgeon, and then a Captain of several Ships".
03:43:20 <ais523> is that the actual title? or just a subtitle?
03:43:28 <pikhq> ais523: That's the actual title.
03:43:48 <alise> ais523: this is the 1700s
03:43:51 <alise> of course that's the actual title
03:44:08 <alise> ais523: also known as "Gulliver's Travels", a name never given to it by Swift.
03:44:30 <ais523> yes, I know of the book
03:44:58 <alise> just not so obvious from the long title
03:45:03 <pikhq> Also, his Modest Proposal was in fact: "A Modest Proposal For Preventing the Children of Poor People in Ireland from Being a Burden to Their Parents or Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to the Publick".
03:45:30 <ais523> I'm well aware of both that Modest Proposal in particular, and Modest Proposals in general
03:45:41 <ais523> I /think/ I just got a dictatorship in B Nomic by proposing it and people voting FOR
03:46:10 <alise> that's a boring way to get a B dictatorship
03:46:17 <ais523> how am I meant to pull off scams if they pass even without scamming?
03:46:20 <alise> the great way is to make a proposal people really don't want but vote in anyway, and make that get you a dictatorship
03:46:23 <alise> just for the sheer confusion
03:46:46 <alise> just say "if you don't enact this proposal, era 2 will never have begun"
03:47:09 <ais523> I suspect B would question a mere statement to that regard
03:47:19 <alise> ais523: your proposal doesn't create a rule
03:47:26 <alise> also, why? it's happened like 500 times before :-)
03:47:45 <pikhq> Would've been perfect if you could've found the comment bug.
03:47:56 <pikhq> Say that if you aren't voted dictator, you will undo everything.
03:48:02 <ais523> does it /need/ to create a rule?
03:48:07 <ais523> here, at least, we can argue about whether I win or not
03:48:12 <pikhq> When you become dictator, retcon the commenting thing to have never happened.
03:48:19 <ais523> besides, I /did/ find the comment bug
03:48:51 <ais523> anyway, I care more about the proposal passing (because I get a win if I pass any proposal, with B's current gamestate), then about what it actually does
03:48:56 <alise> Onwards headed Bjorn; his destination was the Barregan camps of far away, but his intermediate destinations were, in order: the pub, the edge of town, the pub again, the edge of town again, maybe a few more visits to the pub, home, the pub, the edge of town, and finally the shops.
03:49:28 <ais523> I hate to think what Bjorn's definition of "far" is
03:49:32 <alise> These he visited with stunning punctuality and energy, and he fit right in to their native cultures; he patted himself on the back for a job well done, deliberately forgot about the camps, and went home, content in knowing that he hadn't saved the world.
03:50:12 <alise> ais523: A few yards.
03:50:28 <ais523> I couldn't figure out whether it was a very short or very long distance
03:50:33 <ais523> or both simultaneously
03:50:35 <alise> Actually, now even I can't tell.
03:52:04 <alise> As Bjorn woke the next morning, he was, much to his chagrin, reminded of his exploits-to-be by his least favourite region of the brain, which was whatever part stored memories; Bjorn wasn't really sure how the brain operated, apart from that he wished it wouldn't do so in such an efficient and unforgetting manner. So he trundled off again to the pub, and finally got up the energy, spirit, courage, and complete lack of anything else to do to leave the town,
03:52:04 <alise> and he did so. On the way, he ran into a merchant, and was planning to buy whatever he was selling, when suddenly, out of nowhere, the sun disappeared.
03:52:06 * oerjan suspects Bjorn can't tell, either
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03:52:34 <alise> "Now wherefore's that, ey?" inquired Bjorn, while pointing a finger meant to be accusing but that actually just looked rather peculiar at the merchant.
03:53:22 <alise> "I've no idea what sir's talkin' 'bout, sir, though if sir woz talkin' 'bout buying me fine goods, perhaps I'd be more knowledgeable about that there subject." replied the merchant.
03:53:35 <alise> "Well," said Bjorn, "I'd like to buy the sun back."
03:54:13 <alise> The merchant tottered away uneasily, and decided to get a job that involved fewer crazy people. Say, telemarketing. Bjorn voyaged on through the dark for maybe three meters before giving up and resting for the night.
03:56:09 <oerjan> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=91808&id=105695596138468
03:56:47 <oerjan> (yes, it's the world's most stupid comic, it says so right?)
03:57:12 <alise> Bjorn was a great fan of verbose verbiage, and had a long extent of time in which to exercise this hobby of his upon meeting a priestly figure in a nearby village; not a priest exactly, or at least Bjorn had no reason to believe he was a priest, but he had a Church of Him going, so there was that. The priest spoke from the Bible of Him, which was a load of nonsense to Bjorn, and they ended up getting lost in their verbosity. A few days later, Bjorn emerged
03:57:12 <alise> from the village, in tatters but alive.
03:57:41 <alise> oerjan: ha ha, i understand norwegian
03:58:13 <oerjan> (obviously i mainly linked it for the name)
03:58:48 <alise> "In pursuit of Liberty," Bjorn had extolled to the priest-alike, "one must sacrifice many things such as Essential Toiletries, Calculating Devices and Mechanical Toys such as Potable Timepieces."
03:59:03 <alise> "Don't you mean portable timepieces?" said the priest-alike.
03:59:07 <alise> "No," responded Bjorn.
03:59:19 * Sgeo ponders non-calculating computers
03:59:34 <ais523> alise: I suppose most liquids make rather inaccurate potable timepieces
03:59:40 <ais523> via the rate of evaporation
03:59:49 <ais523> or dripping, in a suitable container
03:59:56 <alise> ais523: this is exactly the way Bjorn thinks, except he thinks it rather more dumbly.
03:59:58 <oerjan> very honest and straight forward computers
04:00:52 <pikhq> ais523: Mmm, water clocks.
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04:01:21 <alise> "will be considered non-computable until further research proves otherwise" about a trivial stack language
04:01:25 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Filth
04:01:27 <oerjan> water clocks in at 10 m / s
04:02:05 <oerjan> well this _is_ madk, expect further research to happen quickly
04:03:28 <ais523> wow, he's been gnoming faster than anyone else
04:03:34 <ais523> all the spam is buried under a deluge of legit edits
04:03:46 <alise> ais523: as I said, IEP syndrome
04:04:03 <alise> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=DoubleFuck&curid=1899&diff=18097&oldid=8583
04:04:07 <alise> linking isomorphism
04:04:09 <alise> is not a legit edit
04:04:14 <alise> it's like linking "the" on wikipedia.
04:04:22 <alise> ais523: Initial Esolang Prolificity
04:04:36 <ais523> alise: I don't quite think it's overlinking
04:04:44 <alise> ais523: yeah um he just went and linked every instance of isomorphism
04:04:50 <alise> even twice in the same paragraph
04:04:52 <alise> which is very anti-wiki
04:04:53 <ais523> I check every edit for spam
04:05:40 <alise> i ... think someone should tell madk to slow down.
04:05:59 <ais523> you can do so yourself, if you like
04:06:15 <oerjan> oh wait hm, filth is not madk's language, he only interpreted it
04:07:03 * alise wonders about a "global" brainfuck-alike i.e. where all operations are on the entire tape (string)
04:07:09 <alise> (finite but arbitrary string)
04:07:49 <oerjan> well the trivial version sounds useless, since all cells would have the same value...
04:08:24 <oerjan> hm maybe + and - could do carry and borrow to the next cell?
04:09:01 <oerjan> except then exiting loops would need all tape to right be 0
04:10:13 <oerjan> well the carry/borrow might work
04:11:56 <alise> oerjan: but if we say the string is finite?
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04:12:41 <oerjan> well ending loops only when the whole tape is 0 is rather weak
04:13:42 <alise> maybe if we had multiple tapes?
04:14:28 <oerjan> then you could probably simulate a counter machine
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04:50:25 * Sgeo combines CakeProphet with 5" bread and pays $5
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05:14:00 <adadnl> is magic just getting something from nothing?
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06:35:22 <Ilari> Probably not quite the shortest helloworld (but working): 118e8e818e8e8e8W11188e8e8e818e8e818W11188e8e818e818e8e8eeWW111888W118e818e818e8e8W118e8e8e8e8W118e818e8e818e818e818W11188e8e818e818e818e818eW111888W11188e8e818e818e8e8W11188e8e8e818e8e8W118e8e8e8e818W118e818e8W0P
06:41:07 <Ilari> Much simpler one: 118e41OHWe41OeWe41OlWe41OlWe41OoWe41O,We41O We41OWWe41OoWe41OrWe41OlWe41OdWe41O!W41O<linefeed>W0P
06:44:06 <Ilari> That code actually uses code memory operators.
06:47:53 <ais523> how is the hello world encoded in that?
06:48:07 <ais523> oh, I've just spotted the letters of hello world interspersed among the general mess
06:48:36 <Ilari> That <linefeed> in the program is actually one of the characters in message.
06:50:31 <Ilari> The starting part is 118 (which loads 2 into stack), each character except last is printed by 'e410<character>W', last character is done by '410<character>W'. '0P' is exit the program with status 0.
06:53:15 <Ilari> I removed the swap operators and replaced them with code memory operators. Makes it really "fun" to use unbounded memory.
06:53:47 <Ilari> 5 is write code memory and 6 is append code memory.
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07:44:49 <Sgeo> Ok, that is a LOT of carbohydrates I consumed these past few days
07:45:13 <Sgeo> One serving of this soda is about 10% DV for carbohydrates (all sugar)
07:45:18 <Sgeo> Plus my box of pasta...
07:45:29 <Sgeo> Oh, I've been drinking a LOT of this soda
07:45:53 <pikhq> Welcome to American dietary patterns.
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07:48:38 <Ilari> SAD, or what was the term...
07:49:38 <Sgeo> My understanding is that it's not possible to get diabetes from sugar consumption
07:50:12 <Ilari> I wouldn't be sure about that (especially if there are other stuff that could enhance damage sugar does)...
07:50:48 <Ilari> Wheither sugar alone can cause diabetes... Maybe, maybe not.
07:51:11 <Sgeo> I think I shouldn't have had soda right before bed
07:51:15 <Sgeo> But this stuff's ADDICTIVE
07:53:09 <Ilari> One diagram I printed out blames fructose (sugar), linolic acid (soft fats) and gluten (grains). But gluten is not the only nasty thing in grains.
07:53:45 * Sgeo had a lot of pasta tonight
07:53:47 <Ilari> What IS know is that sugar + refined flour => Trouble.
07:53:49 <Sgeo> Just like every night
07:54:46 <pikhq> I'd say the single most worrisome thing about American diets is not the amount of single things. It's the *total amount*.
07:55:09 <pikhq> Shovelling down a day's worth of meals a meal is not exactly conducive to good health.
07:55:49 <Ilari> Just how you think body responds if fatty tissue is stealing energy?
07:59:55 <Ilari> 1) Provoking more hunger to replace the energy lost and 2) Decreasing enegy consumption. Do these two sound familiar?
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08:00:19 <Ilari> And what you think happens if fatty tissue is stealing energy?
08:00:56 <pikhq> So... Fatty produces fatty tissue. Fuck. That explains how people freaking balloon.
08:01:58 * Sgeo doesn't really have to worry about such weight gain
08:02:03 <Sgeo> Unless it's relative or something
08:02:11 <Sgeo> I've always been on the thin side
08:02:15 <Ilari> That energy gets stored as fat. And it won't be released easily.
08:02:38 <wareya> I weigh 130 lbs, so I'm not really worried about what I eat making me get fat.
08:02:48 <pikhq> wareya: Unless you're 3'.
08:02:52 <pikhq> In which case HOLY FUCK
08:04:14 <Ilari> Some hypotheses say diabetes type II results when one tries to get fatter but one can't get fatter anymore. And that limit can be quite low, even within normal BMI.
08:04:52 <Sgeo> I think I 5'4" or around there
08:04:59 <Sgeo> Don't remember offhand
08:05:06 <wareya> fat cell size limit? olo
08:05:58 <Sgeo> I remember because I weighed myself recently to see if I was eligible to be a marrow donor
08:06:17 <Sgeo> I'm also eligible to give blood, but my dad doesn't want me to due to my nutritional issues.
08:08:16 <Ilari> In normal persons, if they get fatter, leptin secretion increases, which decreases hunger and increases energy consumption.
08:08:42 <wareya> Wait, can you rephrase that?
08:10:58 <Ilari> Leptin reduces apetite (reducing energy intake) and increases energy consumption. And the more fat mass there is, the more leptin gets secreted.
08:12:29 <Ilari> This is integral part of feedback loop that (tries to) control body weight.
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08:15:00 <Ilari> What I say is the single most worrisome thing about SAD is that it includes some stuffs that cause biochemical damage that then manifests as variety of health problems.
08:16:02 <Ilari> Standard American Diet.
08:19:39 <Ilari> There have been experiments on what happens when one eats amounts far beyond what one needs: 1) Overeating is not fun (same as what happens on Caloric Restriction). 2) Energy consumption goes way up (essentially inverse of CR) . 3) The fat gained is very easily lost (inverse of CR).
08:25:57 <Ilari> I think with food "what" is much bigger worry than "how much"...
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10:41:20 <AnMaster> I just concluded from this invoice that my mobile carrier use MiB for data traffic, while my phone use MB
10:41:26 <AnMaster> that is like the reverse of the usual
10:45:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: End of saga: the fcam folks said next version will use type 4 in that field, because they'd like their files to be readable with dcraw too. (And even if the authot condescends to fixing it, there's a lot of dcraw-derived code floating around.)
10:48:43 <fizzie> Strange; this latest N900 firmware has split the data counters in two ("home network" and "roaming network"), but the home network stays at zero while the roaming network counter keeps increasing.
10:49:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm btw, does the n900 use a PIN code or does it use a more linuxy user/password login?
10:50:40 <fizzie> There's the pin code for phone/SIM side, and then a lock code for booting/unlocking.
10:51:07 <fizzie> The lock code is unfortunately limited to 8 numeric digits. :/
10:51:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, couldn't that be somewhat easily modified?
10:51:43 <AnMaster> after all it is full and unlocked linux
10:52:21 <fizzie> Possibly, but I don't know if anyone's done that. You'd probably need to modify the unlocking sreen UI.
10:53:38 <fizzie> Actually the screen accepts up to 10 digits, but only first 8 are significant; for that I think someone had a fix already.
10:59:36 <fizzie> Ah, maemo bug #10941: "Home network data connection detected as roaming (Saunalahti, Finland)"
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10:59:46 <fizzie> Seems I'm not the only one, then.
11:01:29 <fizzie> Only one with this bug. It's nothing very interesting, check them logs if you must.
11:01:37 <fizzie> Very off-topicy and so on.
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11:04:51 <fizzie> AnMaster: "Nokia comment: "We cannot do anything. Saunalahti SIM is roaming in Elisa network. And we cannot in a consistent and general way detect that this Saunalahti is part of Elisa. Only way to fix this would mean maintaining a list of such operators that roam in their home network which is not practical.""
11:05:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, roaming in home network
11:05:45 <fizzie> Saunalahti is one of those virtual operators, they use Elisa's network.
11:06:20 <fizzie> Apparently some newer Saunalahti SIMs have the correct numbers so that they work correctly.
11:07:02 <fizzie> This SIM card is probably at least 7 years old.
11:07:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, strange it does 3G then. I had to get a new SIM card to get 3G working
11:07:59 <AnMaster> but maybe that is because the network menu lists both [2G icon] TELIA and [3G Icon] Telia
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11:09:38 <fizzie> I have a "secondary SIM" for the 3G stick, maybe that one would work right. It'd just be a bit silly to use it, since it has some really strange trickery to make both cards work at the same time.
11:10:34 <AnMaster> if not it doesn't seem that much of an issue
11:11:21 <fizzie> Not really, but I'd like to keep the "ask for data connections in roaming network + warn if much data is sent" flags on, just in case.
11:11:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, that could cause some issues indeed
11:12:04 <fizzie> Currently I keep the ask-for-permission on anyway, and the just ack it whenever it asks, so it's not such a huge problem.
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11:25:20 <Phantom_Hoover> The topic hasn't changed in a ridiculously long time...
11:25:38 <oerjan> ridiculous for this channel, anyhow
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11:41:13 <augur> who was here earlier as i was kvetching about java?
11:41:40 <augur> oh dont worry, its all sorted now :D
11:41:49 <augur> did you ever visit kurzweilai.net?
11:42:38 <oerjan> i don't recall, but i've heard a little about kurzweil
11:43:10 <augur> well the old site, prior to the 5th of this month, had a feature called The Brain
11:43:45 <augur> which was basically a java-based mind-map GUI interface to a very minor encyclopedia of transhumanist/singularitarian relevant articles
11:44:23 <augur> unfortunately, the new site doesnt have this, and the archival version of the old site is unnavigable for the relevant purposes
11:45:16 <augur> but the data was all still there!
11:45:51 <augur> and ive downloaded it, fixed it up to not require java, and now i have a copy of the whole thing :D
11:47:07 <oerjan> soon you'll find out they took it down because it was approaching evil sentience. you've doomed us all!
11:48:55 <augur> unless HTML can compute, i dont think theres much to worry about x3
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11:50:14 <augur> 1199 articles, oerjan! all for us!
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18:05:22 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1023
18:07:04 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1025
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19:09:41 <AnMaster> https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16456 <-- argh
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20:53:25 <augur> guys, are there any algorithms that automatically detect and analyse encryption?
20:59:32 <Sgeo> I'd imagine that there's some encryption designed not to be detected
21:00:05 <pikhq> Impossible in the general case; probably algorithms for specific encryption schemes though.
21:00:27 <pikhq> In the general case, you've got to deal with stuff like one-time pads.
21:00:49 <pikhq> Which are, without the pad, undistinguishable from random noise.
21:01:55 <Gregor> One goal of all encryption algorithms is (generally) for encrypted data to be indistinguishable from noise.
21:02:20 <augur> thats what i figured
21:02:33 <pikhq> Yes; a one-time pad provides this perfectly. Most others get absurdly close, and probably can't be distinguished readily without metadata.
21:02:45 <Ilari> If encryption algorithm is decent, its output appears to be random noise.
21:03:07 <Gregor> Effectively most others are generating a one-time pad in a deterministic way so that somebody else can generate the same pad (symmetric ones anyway)
21:03:09 <Sgeo> But who regularly transmits random noise?
21:03:10 <augur> but im curious tho, then, how normal cryptography these days can be detected at all and defeated even
21:03:20 <Sgeo> If you see random noise, it's probably encrypted?
21:03:24 <Ilari> Only possiblity to identify encrypted data from random data is via associated metadata and other structures.
21:03:51 <Ilari> *decently encrypted data
21:04:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Not necessarily.
21:04:10 <Gregor> Well, if you just want to distinguish encrypted data from other data, you just discount the possibility of random data since most people don't just throw random data around :P
21:04:12 <pikhq> There are, in fact, transmitters of random noise.
21:04:39 <augur> i mean, if you have some sort of pseudorandom number generator, and both the source and the destination have these synched up
21:05:02 <pikhq> Gregor: nc </dev/random
21:05:02 <augur> how can anyone decrypt this without knowing what the cipher numbers are?
21:05:27 <Gregor> augur: Pretty much the ENTIRE point of encryption is that they can't X-P
21:05:57 <pikhq> augur: Exploiting weaknesses in the pseudorandom number generator and letter frequencies in the plaintext.
21:06:06 <augur> Gregor: right, but i mean, i take it that the simple transposition ciphers are considered much weaker than public key cryptography
21:06:28 <pikhq> Perhaps the PRNG cycles its state every 40 characters or something?
21:06:37 <Gregor> That's one shitty PRNG :P
21:06:44 <pikhq> Gregor: Yes, it is.
21:07:04 * Ilari is stuffing iceweasel full of extensions...
21:07:07 <augur> i was thinking more like, if you used a chaotic function
21:07:25 <augur> rx(1-x) for r in the chaotic domain
21:07:32 <augur> just as a simple example
21:07:47 <augur> completely and utterly deterministic, but presumably looks like noise
21:07:54 <pikhq> augur: With a lot of knowledge about the function in question and frequencies of sequences in the plaintext, *maybe* one can figure out something.
21:07:57 * Sgeo quickly learns why even in one's own code, one should make arguments accept the most general type of object possible
21:08:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: NEEDS MOAR HASKELL
21:08:46 <fizzie> From what I've seen, a Real Cryptologist(tm) considers a system broken even if you can write a distinguisher for it that takes less work than what its strength is purported to be.
21:09:52 <pikhq> fizzie: There's a distinction between a reduction of the strength of system and a practical exploit.
21:09:53 <Sgeo> By some standards, MD5 is considered broken, so there are kind of various levels of brokenness
21:10:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: One can generate MD5 collisions; hence, it is broken.
21:10:21 <Ilari> Fun Iceweasel misfeature: Hit back when extension download is in progress and the install will fail.
21:11:01 <Sgeo> pikhq, that only makes md5 useless for some things
21:11:12 <Sgeo> Erm, assuming that something else hasn't been found recently
21:11:30 <fizzie> Eg. first Applied Cryptography journal-entry google-hit for "distinguisher" has an article about a distinguisher for the Shannon stream cipher that "only" needs 2^107 keystream words (and an array of 2^32 counters) to distinguish it from random noise.
21:11:30 <Sgeo> You're referring to the ability to generate A and B that both have the same hash
21:11:44 <pikhq> It limits md5's usage to a mere check for corruption, really.
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21:12:54 <Gregor> OK, so "the time being" wasn't very long :P
21:13:52 <Ilari> And also password "encryption".
21:14:21 <pikhq> MD5 is far too fast for that. :)
21:15:02 <augur> fizzie: so .. does that mean that encryption is pretty rock solid unless someone knows a lot of details?
21:15:07 <Gregor> You could go all DES3 and do like MD5^6000
21:16:12 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Sgeo: One can generate MD5 collisions; hence, it is broken. <-- one can in theory do this for any hash given enough time. However, what I think you mean is that "one can generate such a collision in feasible time on existing (though high end) hardware"
21:16:48 <pikhq> I mean, one can actually *go out and produce real-world collisions if you feel like it*.
21:17:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, I mean, given enough time I could generate a SHA-512 collision with an Intel 80286 too!
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21:17:13 <fizzie> High-end hardware such as gaming consoles. (I think the "rogue CA from MD5 collisions" attack demonstration used 200 PS3's.)
21:17:27 <AnMaster> probably heat death of universe first, though that is mere conjecture. Haven't made any calculations on it.
21:17:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, but you may well have the 80286 suffer from radioactive decay first. :P
21:17:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, PS3 does have that rather high end Cell CPU
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21:18:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, hah, didn't think of that one
21:18:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: High-end 5 years ago.
21:18:31 <oerjan> !haskell let kol = 1:2:2:(concat.zipWith replicate.drop 2 kol)cycle[1,2] in take 100 kol
21:18:56 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ let kol = 1:2:2:(concat.zipWith replicate.drop 2 kol)cycle[1,2] in take 100 kol
21:19:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, still I seem to remember reading that Cell is way more suited to this task than common x86-64 CPUs and such are.
21:20:32 <Gregor> Note: EgoBot might not actually work :P
21:20:56 <oerjan> !haskell main = print $ let kol = 1:2:2:(concat.zipWith replicate(drop 2 kol)$cycle[1,2]) in take 100 kol
21:20:59 <EgoBot> [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2]
21:21:16 <fizzie> They call it a SPU, for "Synergistic Processing Unit", for maximum buzzword compliance.
21:22:13 <Gregor> Sinner-jizztic processing unit
21:23:33 <fizzie> "Each certificate we purchased from RapidSSL cost us USD 45. However, the CA allowed us to reissue each certificate up to 20 times for free, which meant that a single certificate request cost us only USD 2.25. In total, we spent USD 657 on purchasing certificates for this project." But on the other hand: now you have your own CA, and can have all the certificates you could ever want, for free! (Even for other people's domains.)
21:34:44 <Ilari> Heh... This one site, ISP's recursive resolver resolves it, my own recursive resolver doesn't (SERVFAIL).
21:35:08 <Ilari> If I set CD bit in query, then I get NXDOMAIN.
21:36:12 <pikhq> Your ISP's resolver is probably broken.
21:36:43 <Ilari> ISP's resolver doesn't have DNSSEC enabled. My own has (TA list includes just TA for .).
21:36:59 * Sgeo works in a demonic lair
21:37:35 <Ilari> Yes. '.' is DNSSec-enabled now.
21:38:39 <Sgeo> Is 22.214.171.124 DNSSEC enabled?
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21:44:09 <atrapado> Sgeo, I think so: dig +dnssec @126.96.36.199 www.nic.cat
22:09:18 <fizzie> Hey, I think one of my boxes has a motherboard that's on coreboot's (impressively long) list of supported motherboards. (I don't think I'm experimental enough to try it out, though.)
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22:32:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay, back home at last. And more relevantly, back with my Linux laptop.
22:37:31 <Sgeo> Where's alise?
22:43:08 <Phantom_Hoover> So anyway, I was wondering earlier today how one would represent the computable reals in a proof checker?
22:44:44 <Phantom_Hoover> My first and so far only idea was to have a function and a proof that it converges.
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22:48:00 <oerjan> a function from naturals to rationals, you mean?
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22:50:05 <Sgeo> In theory, all computable reals should be mappable to a natural, I think
22:50:20 <oerjan> hm technically such a function could converge (and thus to a computable real) even if there is no proof of that fact >:D
22:51:20 <oerjan> they're probably not countable internally to a constructive/computable logic prover
22:52:06 <oerjan> yes, which gives you a noncomputable real.
22:52:31 <oerjan> assuming you start with a list of all computable reals, it should
22:53:22 <oerjan> not necessarily. as i said, it may be unprovable whether a particular function gives a computable real
22:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so then you can have a thing that goes along the (computable) list, then finds the (computable) nth digit of the nth term, then changes it and concatenates it onto its diagonal.
22:54:08 <oerjan> and there might be computable reals that have only nonprovable functions converging to it
22:54:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, is that in response to my idea on how to represent them?
22:55:11 <oerjan> it's a common representation, i think
22:55:24 <oerjan> but i'm pointing out you cannot make a list
22:56:26 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, can we go back to the CR-as-function-and-proof-of-convergence idea?
22:56:40 <oerjan> if you can solve the halting problem etc., you can easily make a list
22:56:53 <oerjan> the thing is there might not be a proof
22:57:49 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I'll have to stick for CRs for which the generating function is provably converging.
22:58:42 <oerjan> right... in which case you can make a list of them, and when you diagonalize i _think_ you get a CR for which there is no proof
22:59:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Nonono, I was wondering if it was a practical way of manipulating members of a subset of the CRs in a proof assistant such as Agda.
23:00:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure at all about how to do the proof of convergence.
23:00:50 <oerjan> well i'm not familiar with proof assistants so i don't know how these subtle differences affect things
23:01:07 <Phantom_Hoover> All functions must be provably terminating, for a start.
23:01:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well the proof would be specific to each function, obviously
23:02:59 <oerjan> hm, a proof assistant _might_ allow you to prove things about all computable reals (by logic), despite not being able to represent all of them with a proof that they are CRs
23:03:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Once you have the proof bit, most other things are trivial.
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23:05:01 <oerjan> those are easy, you just multiply or add each rational value of the functions
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23:06:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, you can get at least one constructor for the convergence proposition, then.
23:08:41 <Phantom_Hoover> _,_ : Converges f -> Converges g -> Converges (\x -> f x * g x)
23:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> This is deep maths; I have no idea how this would work.
23:11:23 <oerjan> i'm sure alise would be better to talk about all this with, he's done it all before i think :)
23:12:25 <oerjan> well, for one thing your definition of "converges" should probably be that it's a "cauchy sequence"
23:13:12 <oerjan> essentially, that the values of the function eventually get close to _each other_
23:13:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm pretty sure it can't use native functions, come to think of it.
23:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume it's impossible to tell if a function from N to Q is a Cauchy sequence?
23:21:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice's_theorem
23:21:59 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, but I gave up on proving convergence for everything.
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23:24:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, perhaps you can have a type Convergent the constructors of which build a code for a convergent function.
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23:24:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Making non-trivial functions constructable would be tricky.
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23:41:34 <oerjan> are you not familiar with oklonotation?
23:41:50 <oerjan> it means i'm going away to take a walk, now
23:42:16 <oerjan> admittedly oklopol may have stopped using it.
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23:50:24 <augur> has anyone read A Deepness in the Sky?
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