←2010-07-24 2010-07-25 2010-07-26→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:03:13 <nooga> @(D $) (D -) $
00:05:19 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:10:59 <nooga> %(* Y) ' _ % ! '(7 :)
00:10:59 <nooga> ` . `(_ 7) !(0 W)
00:10:59 <nooga> %(1 3)
00:11:01 <HackEgo> No output.
00:11:06 <nooga> beh
00:11:09 <nooga> shut up HackEgo
00:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> %
00:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> %hello
00:16:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, ` .
00:23:13 <nooga> _ @(? ~(`(I _(3 X)) 9)) .(*(%($ `(! =)) $(? _)) /(% *)) + &
00:23:18 <nooga> pretty
00:31:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Random irritating thing: why can't the integers be abbreviated to I, rather than Z?
00:32:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm I is something else, isn't it?
00:32:30 <Gregor> Zintegers
00:32:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It's short for "Zahl", so it might be because a German named them.
00:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Q makes sense, as do N and R.
00:33:39 <AnMaster> Q does not. It should be K
00:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a letter for the algebraic numbers?
00:33:49 <AnMaster> and Z should be H
00:33:57 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, why K and H?
00:33:58 <AnMaster> N does make sense, and so does R
00:33:58 <Slereah> Not to my knowledhe.
00:34:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, because that matches Swedish
00:34:09 <Slereah> There's one for constructible numbers, I think
00:34:12 <AnMaster> Kvoter and Heltal
00:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Q is for "quotient".
00:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh.
00:34:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why so English centric
00:34:39 <AnMaster> that is what I'm trying to poke fun at
00:34:42 <Slereah> Hm
00:34:44 <Slereah> Got a book
00:34:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, H is the quaternions for very good reasons.
00:34:49 <Slereah> Says algebraic are A
00:34:55 <Slereah> constructibles are gamma
00:34:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well that would be Q then
00:35:05 <AnMaster> Q = Quaternions
00:35:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Good point.
00:35:21 <Slereah> Quaternions are H
00:35:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, I was trying to poke fun at you being too English-centric
00:35:31 <Slereah> For Hypercomplex
00:36:00 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, I just want consistency!
00:36:02 <oerjan> um not for Hamilton?
00:36:06 <Slereah> Maybe
00:36:07 <Slereah> Iunno
00:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Make them all Swedish, or all German, or all English.
00:36:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but the other letters probably matches German?
00:36:21 <AnMaster> or?
00:36:26 <AnMaster> well maybe not H
00:36:34 <AnMaster> but Q R and N I would assume do
00:36:34 <Slereah> They're all of historical origins, Phantom_Hoover.
00:36:38 <oerjan> Q should of course be B, for brøk
00:36:41 <Slereah> As are every scientific things.
00:36:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, I know, of course.
00:36:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes that would work for Swedish too, Brål
00:36:52 <AnMaster> err
00:36:55 <AnMaster> Bråk*
00:37:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait you use an ö there!?
00:37:17 <AnMaster> wtf
00:37:20 <AnMaster> seriously
00:37:36 <oerjan> of course not, i use an ø
00:38:07 <oerjan> bråk means noise in norwegian
00:39:23 <fizzie> SGI's math library has a single-precision-float-pair complex number type "complex", but the double-precision variant is called "zomplex"; I had a hard time not to think of zombies or "zomg, complex numbers!" every time I heard it.
00:39:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, bråk means ~brawl in Swedish as well
00:39:45 <oerjan> enter the zomplex at your own risk
00:40:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, did they provide any rationale?
00:41:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, that gives me an idea.
00:41:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Nomplexes are a+bi where a, b \in N
00:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Zomplexes are a, b \in |
00:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> s/|/Z/
00:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Qomplexes in Q, and Romplexes in R.
00:43:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Zomplexes are therefore more commonly known as Gaussian integers.
00:43:03 <oerjan> hm bråk could also be trouble. not brawl i think, maybe riot.
00:43:49 <oerjan> oh wait english brawl can mean that too?
00:44:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, riot could be included in bråk too
00:44:10 <ais523> it can, pretty much
00:44:37 <ais523> a brawl is a relatively disordered combat between a bunch of people, normally with no or improvised weapons
00:44:54 <oerjan> um i meant, brawl can mean things not involving fighting
00:44:56 <ais523> and generally they're just attacking whoever's nearest or whoever they hit
00:45:02 <ais523> hmm, really?
00:45:08 <AnMaster> but bråk could also be a lot milder. You could have some children "bråkande" about some toy or such as well.
00:45:15 <nooga> in Polish brak means lack of sth
00:45:17 <AnMaster> in English neither riot nor brawl would work there
00:45:25 <oerjan> google define: says so...
00:45:27 <ais523> agreed
00:45:33 <ais523> (to AnMaster)
00:45:59 <AnMaster> brak is an omnemat<whatever> word in Swedish for something breaking or such. Or falling down with a large noice
00:46:06 <AnMaster> noise*
00:46:11 <nooga> ? =(- &(% C)) ^(1 $(@(1 =) `(* T))) ^(! +(_ 8)) =
00:46:18 <AnMaster> nooga, what esolang?
00:46:27 <nooga> i don't know yet
00:46:35 <nooga> i'm trying to generate one
00:46:41 <oerjan> well the denotation of bråk is afaik about the noise, while for brawl it's about the fighting, even if they can overlap
00:46:51 <AnMaster> nooga, the answer to that equation should be 42
00:46:55 <nooga> hehe
00:47:01 <oerjan> brak is an onomatopoeion in norwegian too
00:47:07 <oerjan> dunder og brak
00:47:11 <AnMaster> indeed
00:47:24 <AnMaster> dunder och brak in Swedish
00:47:50 <AnMaster> bråk can't be noise in Swedish though
00:48:20 <oerjan> oh
00:49:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: I think they took that from BLAS/LAPACK function names, which use a single-letter prefix S/D/C/Z depending on whether the routine operates on single/double/single-complex/double-complex args. Don't know why a z there, but there's not really an obvious choice to take.
00:49:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, also att bråka is also some technical step in the process of making linnen from flax iirc
00:49:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm
00:49:55 <fizzie> Also double-precision complex might have been added later than the others.
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00:51:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, obviously they decided they weren't going to add any other "class" of functions, thus decided to be final about it with the choice of the last letter
00:52:12 <ais523> fizzie: z is the usual name for complex variables, isn't it?
00:52:18 <ais523> it's like the complex version of x
00:52:37 <AnMaster> oh right
00:52:39 <AnMaster> good point
00:53:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm the noun bråk apparently has something to do with flax in norwegian too
00:53:54 <oerjan> "Etter at linet var tørket (på bastu eller kjone, se dette), ble den trelignende kjernen i linstenglene knust, oftest ved hjelp av (lin-)bråk, f."
00:55:52 <AnMaster> kjone?
00:55:53 <oerjan> hm verb too
00:55:56 <oerjan> "Når det var høveleg turt, tok me det på bråke og bråka det. Bråki var ein kubbe som stod på tvo føter i eine enden, men låg nedpå jordi med hin. Dei brukte mykje attåt visse, kunnige kjerringar te bråke."
00:56:07 <oerjan> that's some hideously old nynorsk :D
00:56:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, bråk is a noun and verb in Swedish
00:56:41 <AnMaster> well actually, bråka is the verb
00:56:52 <oerjan> well this is about the flax meanings
00:57:05 <AnMaster> not sure there
00:57:25 <oerjan> no idea what kjone means, bastu is ~sauna
00:58:20 <AnMaster> well bastu is bastu in Swedish too
00:58:24 <AnMaster> so I could guess that
00:58:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, iirc you mess up the meaning of the word "roligt" too, to mean something else than "fun"
00:59:11 <oerjan> i was really confused today when at my favorite restaurant
00:59:24 <AnMaster> oh?
00:59:33 <oerjan> there's this swedish waiter, and she said something involving "roligt"
01:00:13 <oerjan> and i _know_ the difference in meaning, but she actually used it for the norwegian meaning...
01:00:41 <nooga> HA
01:01:04 <oerjan> (norwegian rolig means ~sv:lugnt, she was talking about how it was a slow day i think)
01:01:26 <nooga> my brother studies norwegian philology :D
01:02:27 <oerjan> incidentally the _modern_ norwegian word for sauna is badstu with a d
01:02:51 <oerjan> hm i guess that was just a typo, then
01:03:16 <AnMaster> what was ta typo?
01:03:33 <AnMaster> a*
01:04:12 <oerjan> bastu in that norwegian quote above
01:04:29 <nooga> oerjan: do you know where Floro lies??
01:04:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm
01:05:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, or they used the proper spelling
01:05:07 <nooga> Florø
01:05:10 <AnMaster> ;P
01:05:20 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
01:05:27 <oerjan> nooga: well i can find out
01:05:28 <AnMaster> nooga, I guess on the veil island
01:05:39 * AnMaster wonders if that joke carries over to Norwegian
01:05:51 <nooga> ;p
01:05:59 <oerjan> flor is more about flowers, although it's not very common in norwegian
01:06:10 <oerjan> "blomster står i flor"
01:06:15 <AnMaster> err
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01:06:30 <AnMaster> "stå i blomster" exists in Swedish
01:06:42 <AnMaster> but well, "blomster står i blomster" would be just silly
01:06:46 <AnMaster> though that would work
01:06:49 <nooga> beh
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01:07:24 <oerjan> "står i blomst" is also possible
01:07:27 <nooga> http://cutr.pl/612967a049
01:07:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw how come I never see any Norwegians working in Sweden?
01:07:47 <nooga> easy
01:07:50 <olsner> AnMaster: swedish is a low-salary country compared to norway
01:07:54 <nooga> Sweden < Norway
01:07:56 <AnMaster> ah right
01:08:07 <nooga> EU < Norway
01:08:08 <oerjan> also, higher unemployment
01:08:12 <nooga> World < Norway
01:08:23 <olsner> (also low-price, if you live close to the border and either work at systembolaget or in a supermarket that is significant)
01:08:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, don't you have higher living costs iirc?
01:08:32 <oerjan> i _think_ norway has about the lowest unemployment in europe
01:08:38 <oerjan> well so they say
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01:08:59 <nooga> i saw norwegians working in scotland
01:09:05 <Madk> hey hey hey
01:09:10 <Madk> check THIS out
01:09:18 <Madk> my newest esolang idea :D
01:09:18 <Madk> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gerbil
01:09:28 <olsner> gerbil? isn't that a rodent?
01:09:34 <Madk> That AI will be horrible to code
01:09:36 <nooga> libger
01:09:38 <Madk> olsner: yes
01:09:46 <nooga> apparently it's german based
01:10:25 <oerjan> nooga: it's supposedly the westernmost town in norway
01:10:31 <Madk> olsner: I also created Cardinal, I'm not so against animal names :P
01:11:05 <olsner> nooga: sounds (like it could be) related to "libgrr, fueled by anger"
01:11:17 <nooga> oerjan: uhuh
01:12:01 <olsner> Madk: you get N plus-points for application of gerbils and kittens to esolangs
01:12:15 <Madk> :D
01:12:30 <nooga> 2 internets
01:12:34 <nooga> i'd say
01:13:06 <olsner> nooga: of course, there is an official exchange rate for plus-points to/from internets
01:13:26 <olsner> I dunno what value for N correspond to 2 internets though
01:15:30 <oerjan> Madk: reminds me a bit of Hunter
01:17:19 <nooga> well
01:17:37 <oerjan> although not so much details in common
01:18:32 <oerjan> just the 2d and the moving animal theme
01:19:20 <nooga> did you know that i'm thinking about a language like famous Feather?
01:20:24 <nooga> and at the base level it still looks pretty much like Scheme :|
01:21:08 <AnMaster> Madk, suggestion: drop @
01:21:25 <AnMaster> Madk, rather program should terminate where there are no gerbils left
01:21:35 <Madk> Yeah, that seems like a good idea
01:22:01 <AnMaster> Madk, that makes cat/kittens more required too
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01:22:30 <Madk> I think it'll be a real challenge to code in - technically once could just do M [code] % but then you'd have no loops
01:22:40 <nooga> @ could mean division by 0 and therefore estruction of simulated universe
01:22:50 <nooga> d*
01:23:05 <Madk> if you wanted a loop of any sort, you'd have to introduce dispensers and reproduction and cats and obstacles and a plethora of other elements
01:23:07 <AnMaster> nooga, mine is harder to code it
01:23:08 <AnMaster> in*
01:23:20 <Madk> (oh, and I meant M [code] %*
01:23:22 <Madk> )
01:23:48 <Madk> the gerbil heads for the feed and does the instructions but dies before the feed is reached
01:23:54 <AnMaster> Madk, the exact behaviour of cats, kittens must be defined in the spec
01:23:58 <Madk> yeah
01:23:59 <nooga> ah, underload is so elegant
01:24:05 <AnMaster> otherwise, it would be implementation defined
01:24:06 <Madk> Nothing will be random
01:24:12 <AnMaster> and that would be bad
01:24:16 <AnMaster> Madk, very nice esolang
01:24:28 <Madk> but I need to see how things will play out before I set anything in concrete
01:24:37 <AnMaster> hm
01:24:46 <AnMaster> you _might_ need a one way door or such
01:24:56 <Madk> perhaps.
01:25:15 <Madk> There's already one
01:25:25 <AnMaster> the bridge?
01:25:26 <AnMaster> no
01:25:30 <Madk> you can use #.#(##
01:25:31 <AnMaster> that allows two directions
01:25:38 <Madk> . being where the door should shut
01:25:56 <AnMaster> . is output?
01:25:57 <Madk> need to reopen in, _)#.#
01:26:03 <Madk> just blank space
01:26:06 <Madk> trying to show
01:26:17 <AnMaster> also I see no way to programmatic control a door at all
01:27:23 <AnMaster> 0 - returns the memory cell pointer to 0
01:27:26 <AnMaster> Madk, define returns
01:27:58 <oerjan> setting gerbil in concrete, how cruel
01:28:05 <Madk> set it to the 0 address
01:28:13 <Madk> oerjan: :P
01:28:49 <AnMaster> <Madk> need to reopen in, _)#.# <-- what is _
01:29:03 <Sgeo> Well, this imbicile looking for hackers to help him went to ##C, then to #nethack
01:29:07 <Sgeo> Now he's asking me for help
01:29:15 <AnMaster> #nethack...
01:29:19 <Madk> anmaster: _ was a blank space
01:29:22 <Sgeo> Any ideas on what I could do? >:D
01:29:30 <AnMaster> Madk, I use a mono space font. I can see spaces
01:29:34 <AnMaster> Sgeo, /ignore
01:29:45 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I mentioned #nethack in ##C, wondering if they experience the problem more
01:29:54 <Madk> wait
01:30:00 <Madk> those () are supposed to be <>
01:30:10 <AnMaster> oh
01:30:55 <Madk> I'll start coding it a bit later, I'm not looking forward to getting A* to work :|
01:30:59 <AnMaster> Madk, what activates ><^v
01:31:07 <Sgeo> Me: "I do know of places that would laugh at you, and places that would probably attack you for merely making the suggestion."
01:31:21 <AnMaster> Madk, A being?
01:31:24 <Madk> maybe only gerbils and kittens, don't know yet
01:31:31 <Madk> but yeah
01:32:20 <Madk> Since it's going to involve at lot of highly unpredicatble (but still nonrandom and definite) AI, I don't want to settle on much of anything yet
01:32:34 <Madk> When I code AI, I like to overdo it
01:32:36 <AnMaster> okay
01:32:39 <Madk> :P
01:32:47 <AnMaster> Madk, do cats with neural networks then
01:32:53 <AnMaster> you can't overdo much more than that
01:33:03 <Madk> anmaster: neural nets aren't suited for this
01:33:06 <oerjan> first they ignore you, then laugh at you, then hate you
01:33:10 <Madk> and I _have_ written one before
01:33:10 <AnMaster> Madk, true
01:33:17 <AnMaster> night →
01:33:25 <Madk> goodnight
01:34:09 <Madk> anmaster: neural nets are for pattern recognition, not logical behavior
01:34:42 <Madk> it's why getting a neural net to recognize XOR logic is so difficult
01:35:05 <oerjan> hm apparently the original is by gandhi
01:36:12 <Gregor> oerjan: First they ignore you, then they continue to ignore you, then they go do something else while you cry in the fetal position.
01:36:33 <oerjan> Gregor: i don't _think_ that's how gandhi said it
01:36:45 <Madk> oerjan: original what?
01:36:46 <Gregor> They misquoted him.
01:36:58 <oerjan> Madk: quote
01:37:17 <Madk> ah
01:37:28 <Gregor> "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
01:37:42 <pikhq> Gregor: And then, you make some salt and somehow years later you are remembered forever.
01:38:01 <oerjan> ah it's apparently disputed that gandhi said it
01:38:24 <oerjan> Madk: it just fit with sgeo's hacker
01:38:34 <Madk> I see
01:39:21 <oerjan> so because of Sgeo he is now destined to take over all the world's computers and become world dictator. alas.
01:39:21 <Gregor> Today's lesson in how to be offensive: Mahatma-X
01:39:40 <oerjan> (the "then you win" part)
01:39:49 <Gregor> A movie, "based on a true story", chronicling Mahatma Gandhi's secret life as a hitman for the mob.
01:40:10 <Gregor> Based on a true story in that the parts in which he isn't killing people are taken from his real life.
01:40:37 <oerjan> Gregor: i thought you were going for mingling in some malcolm X there too
01:40:47 <pikhq> Gregor: *cough*Gandhi II*cough*
01:41:09 <Gregor> oerjan: GANDHI/MALCOLM-X SLASH GO
01:41:18 <oerjan> pikhq: in which he is revealed to be an alien from another planet *ducks and runs*
01:42:21 <pikhq> ... What, did nobody else see Weird Al's UHF?
01:42:51 <Gregor> I didn't recall that scene :P
01:42:52 <oerjan> apparently not, i'm just making a parallel to another film i've never seen
01:42:55 <Gregor> Had to go look it up on YouTube.
01:43:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Curses.
01:43:23 <pikhq> How can you forget the idea of Gandhi returning? And this time, it's personal!?
01:43:27 <pikhq> oerjan: Alas.
01:44:17 <oerjan> pikhq: throw in the buddha, maybe?
01:44:34 <pikhq> oerjan: Awesome.
01:44:50 <pikhq> Heck, throw in the Laughing Buddha, too.
01:45:02 <oerjan> i'd also throw in jesus, except he _did_ get personal in at least one scene at the temple
01:45:11 <Madk> *HIGH PITCH SCREECH*
01:45:15 <Madk> *DRAWN OUT*
01:45:19 <Madk> *IT'S BUILDING*
01:45:25 <Madk> *STARTING QUIETLY*
01:45:26 <pikhq> oerjan: Arguably Jesus took everything personally.
01:45:34 <Madk> *THE CAMERA BLINKS ON*
01:46:27 <Madk> *THERE'S A LOT OF INFANTRY*
01:46:33 <Madk> *AND SOME HORSES*
01:47:15 <Madk> *BUT THE SOLDIERS ARE NOT*
01:47:15 <oerjan> hm yes there's that whole "No One Comes To The Father Except Through Me" thing
01:47:38 <Madk> *THEY ALL FALL*
01:47:41 <Madk> *THEN*
01:47:53 <Madk> *A GENERAL ON A WHITE HORSE*
01:48:19 <Madk> the buildup stops, it's silent
01:48:29 <Madk> flames are flickering but otherwise it's black
01:48:38 <Madk> the flames start to reveal the face of an indean chief
01:48:42 <Madk> he mumbles
01:48:49 <Madk> "I wanted to meet the man.."
01:48:56 <pikhq> oerjan: He's also remembered for such feats as telling a corpse to walk out of the grave.
01:48:57 <Madk> ".. who bullets could not kill."
01:49:09 <oerjan> pikhq: details, details
01:49:10 <Madk> cue epic drum solo
01:49:15 <pikhq> :P
01:49:26 <Madk> a bunch of war scenes flash quickly
01:49:36 <Madk> low movie announcer voice
01:49:43 <Madk> "GEORGE WASHINGTON"
01:49:51 <Madk> "in theaters this summer"
01:50:40 <nooga> ... And then everybody dance naked on top of the building, singing Uganda's national anthem and flogging themselves with young rhubarb
01:50:47 <nooga> no?
01:51:02 <oerjan> nooga: i _think_ you may be confusing it with another movie
01:51:06 <nooga> oh
01:51:24 <oerjan> just a hunch, mind you
01:51:35 <Madk> with washington played by the guy neo in matrix (and the star in speed) and I can't recall his name
01:52:09 <Madk> it'd be like an action-biography
01:52:15 <oerjan> keanu reeves
01:52:30 <Madk> did you know there are a ton of epic rumors about washington before he'd become president
01:52:41 <Madk> oerjan: sounds familiar, yea
01:52:59 <oerjan> i only know about a certain tree and axe
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01:53:05 <Madk> that trailer description is rumored to have actually happened
01:53:15 <Madk> it's said his clothing was full of bullet holes
01:53:38 <Madk> it's also (I think this one's true) said he had 3 horses shot from under him in some battle
01:53:38 <oerjan> if you say so
01:53:50 <nooga> HA
01:54:05 <nooga> i got an idea for an awesome arcade game
01:54:08 <Madk> something that happened to jackson could be fusged to fit george though
01:54:28 <Madk> before he was quite president, a man tried to shoot and assassinate andrew jackson
01:54:33 <Madk> his handgun failed twice
01:54:39 <Madk> it was a 6 shot revolver
01:54:45 <Madk> all 6 rounds had been loaded
01:55:03 <nooga> C-C-C-C-C-...
01:55:04 <Madk> that, I think, is an actual event
01:55:08 <nooga> COMPILE ERROR
01:55:11 <nooga> ;F
01:55:12 <Madk> lol
01:55:40 <Madk> also, adrew jackson took place in a lot of duels
01:55:50 <Madk> he was riddled with lead by the time he died at a ripe old age
01:56:00 <Madk> or was that stonewall
01:56:07 <Madk> I really don't remember .-.
01:56:57 <Madk> On January 30, 1835, what is believed to be the first attempt to kill a sitting President of the United States occurred just outside the United States Capitol. When Jackson was leaving the Capitol out of the East Portico after the funeral of South Carolina Representative Warren R. Davis, Richard Lawrence, an unemployed and deranged housepainter from England, either burst from a crowd or stepped out from hiding behind a column and aimed a
01:56:57 <Madk> pistol at Jackson, which misfired. Lawrence then pulled out a second pistol, which also misfired. It has been postulated that moisture from the humid weather contributed to the double misfiring.[50] Lawrence was then restrained, with legend saying that Jackson attacked Lawrence with his cane, prompting his aides to restrain him. Others present, including David Crockett, restrained and disarmed Lawrence.
01:57:04 <nooga> who's Andrew Jackson?
01:57:12 <Madk> a president of the US
01:57:23 <nooga> never heard of
01:57:31 <Madk> 16th othe 7th
01:57:39 <Madk> the 7th president*
01:58:31 <nooga> ah lame assasination methods
01:59:01 <pikhq> Senator Crockett was such a badass.
01:59:18 <oerjan> nah, he was a lam-o
01:59:57 <nooga> couldn't they just crash one plane with half of government, high command and the president :D
02:00:30 <oerjan> nooga: of course not, they hadn't invented planes yet
02:00:35 <nooga> right
02:02:11 <nooga> aha, that reminded me a situation from yesterday: they've put big cross in front of presidential palace in Warsaw
02:02:52 <nooga> and the battle beagn because some ppl want the cross to be there and others don't like it
02:03:16 <oerjan> hm wait crockett only was a representative, not a senator
02:03:17 <nooga> and then pastafarians came and put big bowl of spaghetti in front of the palace
02:04:05 <nooga> then catholics got extremelly pissed off
02:05:35 <nooga> ridiculous
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02:24:21 <nooga> bedtime
02:24:23 <nooga> gn8
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02:24:29 <Madk> DON'T LEAVE
02:24:45 <Madk> i feel so alone
02:25:23 <oerjan> boo
02:33:34 <poiuy_qwert> bees
02:43:00 <Madk> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
02:43:03 <Madk> zzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt
02:43:06 <Madk> zz
02:43:10 <Madk> bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
02:43:17 <Madk> BZT
02:43:18 <Madk> BZT
02:43:30 <Madk> bizzzzzzzzzzzZZzzZZZZzzzzzzz...
02:43:39 <Madk> zzzzzt
02:43:43 <Madk> zizt
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11:47:57 <zzo38> Do you know, write anything on this channel?
11:48:03 <zzo38> s/know/now/
11:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Nope.
11:48:56 <Phantom_Hoover> No-one's mentioned anything of interest, and I can't se the point in bringing up last night's discussion without at least oerjan, ais or alise.
11:49:06 <zzo38> OK
11:51:04 <zzo38> When I play Dungeons and Dragons game, I try to avoid to kill someone, in nearly all cases, sometimes there is exceptions. Other player characters and non-player character sin the same team are differently though. My brother's character is NINJA
11:51:27 <Phantom_Hoover> He is NINJA?
11:51:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, I'm unfamiliar with D&D.
11:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover> What's an NPC sin?
11:51:57 <zzo38> I capitalized it just for emphasis only
11:52:09 <zzo38> s/character sin/characters in/
11:52:16 <zzo38> (I put the space in the wrong place by mistake)
11:52:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Aww, that would have been cool.
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11:54:52 <zzo38> There are some non-player characters in the same party, one of which not human. Mostly those non-player characters are the king's guards and so on, and might use magic missiles and swords and various things. But I don't use any of that stuff. I use things like "Control Light" and webs.
11:55:54 <zzo38> How do you think you would play a game such as D&D, in your opinion?
11:56:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea.
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11:56:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I've got a terrible feeling that I would be unable to take everything seriously, at least at first.
11:56:58 <zzo38> I always win because I do everything always unexpected
11:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover> "I jump off a cliff wearing my underpants on my head."
11:57:46 <zzo38> Not quite like that, but....
11:58:17 <AnMaster> XD
11:58:27 <zzo38> The DM makes up situations they don't know how to win but the players do figure it out anyways
11:58:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, also, is there no channel on freenode dedicated to D&D?
11:58:40 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, BORING.
11:58:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what?
11:59:03 <zzo38> AnMaster: There is on other IRC networks
11:59:06 <Sgeo> D&D : zzo38 :: Active Worlds : Sgeo?
11:59:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, let's not let him distract us from all of our on-topic conversations.
11:59:51 <zzo38> There is no need to be distracted when you have any on-topic conversations! But currently is few people on here
12:01:01 <zzo38> But when I do kill someone in D&D (which is rarely), I would often eat them or let Obkwag eat them, or both eat them
12:01:16 <zzo38> But usually there is 100 other choices no need kill someone
12:01:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Eating one's enemies is indeed unexpected.
12:02:24 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> D&D : zzo38 :: Active Worlds : Sgeo? <-- no, zzo38 does trading games too
12:02:27 <AnMaster> iirc
12:02:36 <AnMaster> like magic the gathering
12:02:39 <Sgeo> I do non-AW things!
12:02:39 <AnMaster> or such
12:02:47 <AnMaster> Sgeo, okay you have PSOX too
12:02:47 <zzo38> Often when they are still live. Obkwag does the same
12:03:12 <Sgeo> The scary thing is, that was the easiest example to think of offhand
12:03:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, why eat them
12:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, have you tried the Spanish Inquisition for an unexpected thing?
12:03:34 <AnMaster> Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
12:03:47 * Phantom_Hoover watches that on Youtube.
12:04:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, take that last one too, where everybody does
12:04:12 <Sgeo> I wrote an interpreter for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Foobar_and_Foobaz_and_Barbaz,_oh_my!
12:04:17 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes I have thought of that idea once, where I thought it might be useful.
12:04:17 <Sgeo> Admittedly, that was a long time ago
12:04:22 <Sgeo> And rather cruddy
12:05:07 <zzo38> You waste the body if you do not eat them? Also because someone is more hungry?
12:05:11 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java
12:05:20 <zzo38> What do *you* think??
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12:06:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, how about MORTGAGE?
12:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> It has one command, MORTGAGE, which prints your mortgage interest.
12:08:04 <zzo38> Also because Obkwag is otyugh and my character is ettercap. But most character are human
12:08:22 <zzo38> (The names "Obkwag" and "Vyb" were selected by rolling the dice for each letter)
12:08:58 <zzo38> (You roll 1d6 to select type (vowel/consonant/stop) (6 means stop), and 1d6 for vowel, 1d20 for consonants.)
12:09:02 <AnMaster> zzo38, a d26?
12:09:14 <AnMaster> or how many letters the English alphabet has
12:09:17 <AnMaster> I never remember
12:09:28 <zzo38> AnMaster: No you use the 1d6 and 1d20 like I described
12:09:40 <AnMaster> zzo38, right, lag, didn't see that until after
12:09:49 <zzo38> Yes.
12:09:54 <AnMaster> zzo38, still that seems to not be completely fair
12:09:58 <zzo38> That's what I thought
12:10:21 <zzo38> AnMaster: If you don't like the name generated, modify it or reroll another name or just make one up yourself
12:10:28 <AnMaster> hm
12:10:51 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, Markov chain thingy?
12:10:51 <zzo38> The name "Vyb" was at first "Vb" but I then added the "y" in the middle by manually.
12:11:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, I would suggest roll 1d10 for length, then do completely fair rolls for each letter
12:11:28 <AnMaster> which would require some custom dice I suspect
12:11:35 <zzo38> AnMaster: You can do that too if that is the way you prefer.
12:12:00 <zzo38> Another way is using d% and assigning a group of numbers to each letter corresponding to how likely you want each letter to occur
12:12:06 <zzo38> But there are more ways
12:12:12 <AnMaster> zzo38, you could roll 1d2 for upper/lower case of each letter
12:12:27 <zzo38> Another way could be to use Furryscript
12:12:30 <AnMaster> zzo38, d100? that exists?
12:12:43 <AnMaster> well yes but anyone uses it?
12:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, how can you combine a probability of 1/6 and 1/20 to get 1/26?
12:12:52 <zzo38> You don't need d100, you can use d% which means 2 of d10 dice, one with 00-10-20-... and the other 0 to 9
12:13:02 <AnMaster> ah
12:13:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, "Furryscript"?
12:13:08 <zzo38> Phamtom_Hoover: The probabilities are not even.
12:13:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Exactly.
12:13:43 <zzo38> The first 1d6 for each letter selects the mode (vowel/consonant/stop), the second 1d6 selects a vowel, the 1d20 selects a consonant
12:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh.
12:13:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, what is Furryscript?
12:14:24 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/webform.php
12:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Why not use 1/3 and 1/10, then map some punctuation to 27-29?
12:14:44 <zzo38> I have not written a name generator script in there yet, but I might do so later, or you might do so.
12:14:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can get stuff with apostrophes, and that always looks delightfully weird
12:15:22 <zzo38> You can access http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/custom.php if you want to write your own script without downloading the program (in case you don't have PHP on your computer)
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12:15:51 <AnMaster> zzo38, what is parameter used for
12:16:14 <zzo38> AnMaster: Nothing, in any of the scripts in the selection list, yet.
12:16:17 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
12:16:29 <AnMaster> ah
12:17:03 <zzo38> But if you write new scripts, the commands PAR PA PA+ can use the parameter value.
12:17:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, I'm not sure "The well has turned clear." is such a great adventuring idea but heh ;)
12:17:41 <zzo38> (If you are using the custom.php form, you can use the PAS command to enter parameter values)
12:17:46 * oerjan peeks carefully
12:18:06 * Phantom_Hoover jumps off a cliff wearing his underpants on his head
12:18:16 <Phantom_Hoover> DIDN'T EXPECT THAT, DID YOU?
12:18:19 <oerjan> ah, entertainment!
12:18:47 <oerjan> no, not really
12:20:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, chaotic neutral I see
12:21:02 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> What's an NPC sin? <-- anything that gives you the slightest excuse to kill them, obviously. such as existing.
12:21:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, what alignment do you play?
12:21:19 <AnMaster> zzo38, also, which version of D&D do you use?
12:21:20 <zzo38> If you want a plain-text version of Furryscript.php (without syntax highlighting): gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0furry*FURRYSCRIPT
12:21:27 <zzo38> AnMaster: NG, 3.5e
12:21:36 <zzo38> My brother plays NN
12:22:08 * Phantom_Hoover knows that he will have to shovel through 3 weeks of webcomics sooner or later.
12:22:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, hm I always preferred NN or LN. Though I played CN a few times.
12:22:31 <zzo38> AnMaster: That's OK, play the alignments you prefer
12:22:45 <AnMaster> zzo38, can't be having with those pesky good people ;)
12:22:57 <zzo38> But I play NG and try to avoid to kill someone in most cases, try other ways too
12:23:27 <AnMaster> zzo38, I don't get how people can play either LG or CE though
12:23:32 <zzo38> Such as telling someone else maybe they can learn to be good also, or tell them to surrender, or make a tricky way of doing something strange, etc...
12:23:59 <zzo38> AnMaster: All nine alignments are possible, you can play LG or CE just as much as CG or LE or anything else.
12:24:01 <AnMaster> zzo38, the last one sounds like chaotic
12:24:32 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes it does, but I do many things law/chaos in between sometimes too.
12:24:37 <AnMaster> zzo38, well I can understand how people can think in terms for LE and CG actually
12:24:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, can I get Summon Bigger Fish in D&D?
12:24:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, XD
12:24:56 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Write that spell and get it reviewed!
12:25:04 <AnMaster> zzo38, you read D&D?
12:25:06 <AnMaster> err
12:25:09 <AnMaster> darth and droids
12:25:10 <AnMaster> that is
12:25:15 <zzo38> No
12:25:17 <AnMaster> ah
12:25:21 <AnMaster> that is what Phantom_Hoover referenced
12:25:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Hang on, I'll get a link...
12:25:41 <zzo38> But either way...
12:26:15 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0033.html
12:26:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I think that's the first time it appeared.
12:26:25 <AnMaster> zzo38, what do you think about NWN?
12:26:34 <zzo38> AnMaster: No opinion.
12:26:40 <AnMaster> zzo38, after all that uses D&D rules for it's game engine
12:26:52 <zzo38> I don't know much about NWN.
12:26:58 <AnMaster> ah
12:27:08 <AnMaster> zzo38, what do you think about multiclassing then?
12:27:11 <zzo38> But, you can't play proper D&D as a computer game you need to use paper to play good way D&D
12:27:29 <Phantom_Hoover> And I would assume you need a human for the GM.
12:27:38 <oerjan> <AnMaster> zzo38, I would suggest roll 1d10 for length, then do completely fair rolls for each letter
12:27:42 <oerjan> `simpleacro
12:27:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, actually, NWN supports that for multiplayer games
12:27:52 <HackEgo> No output.
12:27:58 <zzo38> I think multiclassing in D&D is good (although I don't like the "favored class" stuff and would rather no XP penalty and instead just waste XP normally instead
12:28:02 <oerjan> ...now what
12:28:10 <oerjan> `run ls bin/s*
12:28:11 <AnMaster> zzo38, indeed
12:28:12 <HackEgo> bin/sayhi \ bin/strfile \ bin/swedish
12:28:14 <zzo38> My own character is many multiclass
12:28:19 <oerjan> ^show
12:28:19 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord
12:28:23 <Phantom_Hoover> `swedish
12:28:25 <HackEgo> No output.
12:28:28 <Phantom_Hoover> `swedish hello
12:28:29 <HackEgo> hellu
12:28:42 <oerjan> !help userinterps
12:28:43 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
12:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I find that deeply satisfying for some reason.
12:28:49 <oerjan> !userinterps
12:28:50 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
12:28:56 <oerjan> sheesh
12:28:58 <Phantom_Hoover> !simpleacro
12:28:58 <oerjan> !simpleacro
12:28:59 <AnMaster> !simpleacro
12:29:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Heh.
12:29:06 <zzo38> If you do play D&D on computer, it is best done using plain text, over IRC or play by mail.
12:29:13 <AnMaster> zzo38, hm
12:29:18 <zzo38> But it is better without the computer.
12:29:20 <oerjan> wth
12:29:22 <oerjan> !help
12:29:22 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
12:29:25 <EgoBot> KZASDROE
12:29:25 <EgoBot> UTT
12:29:25 <EgoBot> ZPZ
12:29:26 <AnMaster> zzo38, actually I found NWN works quite nicely
12:29:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, it is just slow
12:29:47 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, the three simultaneous requests clogged it.
12:29:55 <AnMaster> !simpleacro
12:29:57 <EgoBot> ZFWTODHEDE
12:30:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: that's essentially the method you said, and it has no guarantee of being pronouncable
12:30:12 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no. It just tends to be like that when not recently used
12:30:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, nor does the method zzo38 suggested
12:30:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, but KZASDROE is quite nice
12:31:26 <AnMaster> at least you can base a nice name on it: KZASDROE → Kzasadore
12:31:27 <zzo38> O, is your character human character?
12:31:38 <AnMaster> zzo38, mine in nwn? yes
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12:32:24 <AnMaster> multiclassed fighter/wizard, NN
12:32:35 <AnMaster> 10 levels in fighter, 5 in wizard
12:33:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: he adjusts the vowel/consonant/stop frequencies, that can give a higher chance
12:33:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm true
12:33:37 <AnMaster> !simpleacro
12:33:40 <EgoBot> XCWJNYEE
12:33:43 <AnMaster> !simpleacro
12:33:45 <EgoBot> TBRTNXNLCM
12:33:47 <AnMaster> !simpleacro
12:33:50 <EgoBot> BHUO
12:33:54 <zzo38> My character in D&D is, ettercap, multiclassed factotum/psion/erudite/beastheart/semigestalt/etc, NG, I select the Speak Language skill a lot
12:33:56 <AnMaster> okay you do have a point
12:34:17 <zzo38> Which method are those names using?
12:34:19 <AnMaster> zzo38, you can do that many classes? Maybe different rules...
12:34:39 <AnMaster> zzo38, iirc NWN1 (which is what I have) uses 3e rules
12:34:44 <AnMaster> not 3.5
12:34:44 <zzo38> AnMaster: You can have any number of classes, but the total level must add up to your experience level
12:35:17 <AnMaster> which only lets you have 3 classes, and once you switched you can't level up in one of the former ones any more
12:35:34 <oerjan> !show simpleacro
12:35:34 <EgoBot> haskell import System.Random; import Control.Monad; main = do {len <- pick [2..10]; putStrLn =<< (replicateM len $ pick ['A'..'Z'])} where pick a = randomRIO (0, length a - 1) >>= return . (a !!)
12:35:59 <AnMaster> replicateM?
12:36:23 <AnMaster> randomRIO?
12:36:29 <oerjan> repeat the action len times and take a list of the results
12:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell :t replicateM
12:36:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, :t doesn't tell you everything you want to know
12:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> It gives the type, which is enough to guess.
12:37:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, after all, not and identity for boolean would have the same type, just as an example
12:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, obviouswly.
12:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> s/w//
12:37:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: randomRIO is a class method for generating random values from ranges, using the seed in IO rather than passing your own seed around
12:37:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah
12:38:10 <Phantom_Hoover> But given the type and the name, I can make an educated guess.
12:38:26 <AnMaster> I wish ghci had proper online docs
12:38:27 <oerjan> !haskell :t Control.Monad.replicateM
12:38:29 <EgoBot> Control.Monad.replicateM :: (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a]
12:38:31 <AnMaster> like python does for example
12:38:45 <AnMaster> or heck even bash
12:38:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: there's a big online manual?
12:39:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, not online as in "integrated into the tool"
12:39:12 <oerjan> AnMaster: um that's the _opposite_ of online
12:39:18 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, man man
12:39:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, no... offline manual = on paper
12:39:32 <AnMaster> online manual = on computer or on internet
12:39:34 <Phantom_Hoover> man - an interface to the on-line reference manuals
12:39:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, I need something I can use in a terminal with no internet connection, and without X running
12:39:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Confusing, I'll give you that.
12:39:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm i always think of online as net
12:40:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, recursive wget + w3m or lynx?
12:40:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, the internet is new fangled stuff
12:40:28 <Phantom_Hoover> And screen, of course.
12:40:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not as convenient though
12:40:37 <AnMaster> as having, say:
12:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll give you that.
12:40:42 <AnMaster> :h Foo
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12:41:02 <Phantom_Hoover> You could always have a Haskell function to do it, then make ghci load it.
12:41:08 <AnMaster> perhaps
12:41:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, wouldn't be a function starting in : though would it?
12:41:44 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but can you define your own : things?
12:41:50 * Phantom_Hoover starts ghci
12:42:11 <AnMaster> which would thus change that it "variable"
12:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> :def?
12:42:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh and btw my installation of the haskell platform _does_ include a copy of the ghc manual
12:42:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh cool
12:42:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't think mine does
12:43:27 <oerjan> it's in html format
12:43:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, still fails then
12:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, ghc-doc on Ubuntu.
12:43:51 <AnMaster> erlang at least have erl -man <module>
12:44:03 <AnMaster> which is less convenient than python's or bash's docs
12:44:04 <oerjan> "C:\Programfiler\Haskell Platform\2010.1.0.0\doc\html\index.html"
12:44:06 <AnMaster> but still better
12:44:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I don't use ubuntu on this system
12:44:17 <AnMaster> arch linux
12:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, check your package manager.
12:44:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I do however have /usr/share/doc/ghc/html/
12:44:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I very much doubt arch linux splits packages
12:44:55 <AnMaster> like debian and ubuntu do
12:45:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, arch has as a goal to follow upstream as closely as possible
12:45:40 <AnMaster> which means that the ghc package is _huge_
12:45:57 <AnMaster> Installed Size : 681026,00 K
12:46:06 <AnMaster> um
12:46:11 <AnMaster> that is Swedish ,
12:46:12 <AnMaster> it seems
12:46:19 <AnMaster> which is decimal separator
12:46:43 <AnMaster> so 665 MB it seems
12:47:15 <AnMaster> $ du -sh /usr/share/doc/ghc/html/
12:47:15 <AnMaster> 33M/usr/share/doc/ghc/html/
12:47:23 <AnMaster> hm I wonder where the bulk of that is
12:47:56 * oerjan thought du could give you a list of subdirectories too
12:49:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, well then I wouldn't use s
12:49:27 <AnMaster> s is summary after all
12:49:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, and with bulk I meant "bulk of ghc install size"
12:49:43 <AnMaster> not bulk of the docs
12:50:13 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_and_offline at least partially agrees with me (i haven't read all)
12:50:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, and? I use the man meaning
12:51:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm that might be from back when you connected to unix servers via a network from a terminal. that would be online, while using your desktop/laptop with linux is less so
12:51:53 -!- oklopol has joined.
12:52:13 <oerjan> although one of the sections lists even being connected to power as being online in some situations
12:52:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, maybe. But I use the meaning prescribed by the holy man documentation. Though linux isn't that old
12:52:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed
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12:53:10 <zzo38> See the list of gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0furry*%3Fadventure they are from various sources, including some I wrote myself. Which ones do you like best? Do you have any additional ideas?
12:53:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: while offline browsing is exactly the meaning i suggested
12:53:54 <zzo38> I use "online documentation" in the man meaning too
12:54:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, no, that would be while on battery ;P
12:54:13 <AnMaster> zzo38, oerjan: that is because you both use windows
12:54:18 <zzo38> That is, as opposed to printed documentation.
12:54:22 <AnMaster> ah
12:54:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is because you use windows :P
12:54:33 <zzo38> AnMaster: It has nothing to do with what operating system I use.
12:55:00 * AnMaster forces oerjan to use BSD 4.3 for the next month
12:55:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: um zzo38 agreed with your terms, not mine
12:55:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes I misread
12:56:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay, found out how def works.
12:56:57 <oerjan> as for windows it uses "arbeide frakoblet" iirc ;D
12:57:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, what?
12:57:18 <zzo38> What does "arbeide frakoblet" means?
12:57:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: norwegian version
12:57:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes but what does it mean
12:57:39 <AnMaster> it is unparsable in Swedish
12:57:39 <oerjan> zzo38: work offline, assuming you agree with my meaning of offline :D
12:58:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think they use "arbeta offline" in Swedish
12:58:13 <AnMaster> which sucks as a translation really
12:58:28 <zzo38> I don't mind using "online"/"offline" in multiple ways, many words can have multiple meanings often depending on context
12:58:34 <oerjan> checking the menu *arbeid frakoblet
12:59:42 <zzo38> I especially like the last four entries on the adventure idea list, all of which are my own idea (although the last one was slightly inspired by Godel Escher Bach)
13:00:15 <zzo38> Some of the other ones are good, too, though.
13:00:20 <oerjan> AnMaster: doesn't swedish have a word like frakoblet, then? (frånkoblad?)
13:00:39 <zzo38> Some are based on templates, which is why some come strange thing sometimes not always
13:01:17 <oerjan> frånkopplad, says google
13:01:57 <zzo38> For example, the line "<<ADVENTURE>.> CAP" itself uses the ADVENTURE template, adds a period to the end, and then capitalizes the first letter of the result (which is useful if the first word is another template!)
13:02:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah frånkopplad
13:02:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, it might use that
13:02:34 <AnMaster> not sure
13:02:51 <zzo38> What do *you* think??
13:03:31 <AnMaster> zzo38, I have no idea
13:03:53 <zzo38> AnMaster: Did you look at the last four? Have you read Godel Escher Bach?
13:04:02 <AnMaster> zzo38, no and no
13:04:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, link to the list?
13:04:25 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0furry*%3Fadventure
13:04:54 <zzo38> If you want it on HTTP: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/furry/scripts/adventure.txt
13:05:07 <oerjan> <AnMaster> zzo38, d100? that exists?
13:05:18 <oerjan> usually you have two d10 of different colors
13:05:45 <zzo38> oerjan: Or, one of them has 00,10,20,30,etc and the other 0,1,2,3,4,etc
13:05:49 <oerjan> or one marked 10 ... right
13:05:54 <zzo38> But they might or might not also be different colors
13:06:04 <AnMaster> zzo38, why are the first ones numbered?
13:06:18 <zzo38> AnMaster: Because of the sources they come from are numbered.
13:06:24 <AnMaster> hm
13:07:03 <zzo38> Although, I have modified them (mostly by adding templates or by shortening them if they are too long), so they are not exactly the same as the sources they come from.
13:07:24 <zzo38> The ones without numbers are various things from various sources, a lot of them are my own ideas, too.
13:08:29 <Deewiant> d100s do also exist.
13:08:43 <zzo38> Deewiant: Yes they do, but it is rarely used, and I don't like to use d100s
13:08:56 <Deewiant> Why not?
13:09:37 <zzo38> It is just my opinion!
13:09:44 <fizzie> But the golfball! It's the neat!
13:09:44 <Deewiant> Fair enough I guess
13:10:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, get a d1000
13:10:55 <AnMaster> or just a d500
13:11:01 <zzo38> Get a d(infinity)
13:11:02 <Deewiant> I think d100 is the biggest that exists.
13:11:19 <fizzie> Exists in common use, anyway. I'm sure someone's done a bigger as a novelty thing.
13:11:25 <AnMaster> zzo38, that would be a perfect sphere
13:11:31 <Deewiant> d100 is already a novelty thing.
13:11:37 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes!
13:11:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed
13:11:40 <Deewiant> It's not really "in common use".
13:12:33 <Deewiant> Although I guess it's more common than a d30, but that could just be because nothing uses a d30.
13:12:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Freefall's story has actually started moving.
13:12:49 <fizzie> It's common enough that I've seen them on a roleplayer's messy desk.
13:13:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, huh, I haven't read that for over a year or so
13:13:15 <zzo38> Some of the adventure ideas are from ADOM, such as this one: <A lord might come, he will kill some, others he will beat and that will be neat>
13:13:17 <fizzie> At least it's safer than a d4 w.r.t. stepping on one.
13:13:20 <AnMaster> would have quite a bit to catch up with
13:13:45 <AnMaster> zzo38, ADOM, isn't that some computer game?
13:13:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea at all why so much happens between interesting things.
13:13:53 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, roguelike.
13:13:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, XD
13:13:56 <zzo38> d4 is difficult to roll the dice a bit
13:14:10 <AnMaster> what about D2?
13:14:11 <AnMaster> err
13:14:13 <AnMaster> d2*
13:14:18 <zzo38> You mean, flip-a-coin?
13:14:36 <AnMaster> zzo38, well presumably yes
13:14:38 <AnMaster> also I want a d1
13:14:44 <AnMaster> a one-sided coin
13:14:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'm not sure freefall is moving _faster_. it's coming to a pivotal point, however.
13:15:03 <zzo38> Is it half-sphere so it can land only one way?
13:15:05 <fizzie> Ooh, someone has opinions: "In 1985 a man named Lou Zocchi invented the 100-sided die or "Zocchihedron." You know, because two D10s were just so damn heavy to roll in tandem. Well, this die certainly rolls -- it rolls and rolls, which makes sense, because it has a hundred sides, or almost enough to become a perfectly round sphere. Good luck finding out which number it's actually landed on. Is it 2, or 57? You won't know. You won't goddamn know because the die
13:15:05 <fizzie> rolled off your table. The D100 almost has to rolled in a box, or the padded cell that you should be kept in if you insist on using this. I think any die that needs an enclosure isn't a die, it is a pet for the insane."
13:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, fair enough.
13:15:18 <AnMaster> zzo38, perhaps, but that can still land in two ways
13:15:33 <AnMaster> zzo38, but actually I want the d1 to just have a single side
13:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, d1 is a Mbius band.
13:15:43 <AnMaster> not physically possible of course
13:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Or a Klein bottle.
13:15:52 <AnMaster> indeed
13:16:01 <zzo38> A Mobius strip does have two sides. It is just that both sides are the same side.
13:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Both of which are physically possible.
13:16:14 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, no it doesn't...
13:16:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, a klein bottle isn't physically possible in 3D
13:16:40 <AnMaster> you need 4D for it
13:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It is if it intersects.
13:16:55 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Why it doesn't...?
13:16:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you can't make it in 3D
13:17:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool, 4 2-letter words beginning with i...
13:17:29 <AnMaster> XD
13:17:30 <AnMaster> bbl
13:17:34 <zzo38> In a mobius strip there is one other side from any side, but it is the same side as the first side!
13:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, you can't... embed or orient or immerse (one of them) it in 3D.
13:18:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, and IWC is heading or another cataclysm.
13:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> s/or/for/
13:18:32 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
13:19:06 <zzo38> A mobius strip cannot be silver-plated on one side and gold-plated on the other side (assuming you mean entirely and that these are mutually exclusive), unless you mean locally to one part of the mobius band, it can be. But not for the entirety.
13:19:14 -!- Wamanuz2 has changed nick to Wamanuz.
13:19:38 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, you can't... embed or orient or immerse (one of them) it in 3D. <-- that is what I said
13:19:43 <zzo38> Do you like to agree or disagree or whatever? And for what reasons?
13:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, but you can put one in 3D if it self-intersects.
13:20:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes but that isn't possible to make without access to a fourth dimension
13:21:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, like you can't make a möbius band without access to the 3rd dimension
13:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think you can immerse a Mbius band in 2D.
13:22:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm
13:22:58 <zzo38> You can fake it, such as if you make a chess variant with a board that acts as a mobius geometry
13:23:08 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, that's not immersion.
13:23:26 <zzo38> Phamtom_Hoover: Yes I know!
13:23:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It's doing stuff on the surface of an MB.
13:24:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, perhaps you can immerse an MB in 2D.
13:24:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Klein bottles are immersable in 3D, btw.
13:24:19 <oerjan> you can embed the mobius band perfectly well in the _projective_ plane iirc (of which you can make a chessboard)
13:24:25 <zzo38> Actually you can even fake a standard chess game on a 1-dimensional board (and I have done so).
13:24:39 <Phantom_Hoover> No, wait, the MB is unimmersable in 2D.
13:25:08 <zzo38> See http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSeeeeeeeeeeeeee
13:25:31 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, by using an N^2->N bijection?
13:25:50 <zzo38> EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX! Chess is exactly the same as chess even though it is extremely different from chess.
13:26:11 <Phantom_Hoover> You can do arbitrary games on an unbounded board in 1D.
13:26:29 <oerjan> when you immerse a 2D surface in the plane, the orientability of the plane itself, forces the surface to also have a consistent orientation, i think. while embedding 2d in 3d this doesn't happen.
13:27:14 <oerjan> which means you also cannot immerse a MB in a sphere or a torus
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13:28:04 <zzo38> EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX! Chess has 12 kind of pieces (instead of 6 as in chess), it has unequal armies, it has a deck of cards, win is by capture not checkmate, yet, the game is exactly the same as chess, despite all of these differences!!!
13:28:09 <Phantom_Hoover> But you obviously can on a KB or the RPP.
13:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I love these acronyms...
13:28:49 <oerjan> (the orientations have to match locally consistently, and the global orientation of the superspace forces global consistency of the immersed space. i think.
13:28:52 <oerjan> )
13:30:13 <zzo38> Look at the rules for my one-dimensional game and tell if if I did a good job of it, or not.
13:30:52 <AnMaster> zzo38, EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX! Chess seems to be missing en passant
13:32:02 <zzo38> AnMaster: No it isn't. Simulating en passant is what the Oranges is for.
13:32:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are you saying EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX?
13:32:14 <oerjan> hm a mook is a castle that can still castle, right?
13:32:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, aah
13:32:23 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes
13:32:36 <oerjan> heh that's the first comment
13:33:01 <zzo38> oerjan: That is, the most recent comment.
13:33:13 <oerjan> oh
13:33:33 <zzo38> Only the five most recent comments are displayed unless you select the "List all comments and ratings" link.
13:34:03 <AnMaster> zzo38, that EE+X Chess is truly a brilliant idea
13:35:09 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes it is, and your idea of abbreviating it EE+X is also good idea, I think.
13:35:30 <AnMaster> zzo38, that or do it like l10n or i18n
13:35:46 <AnMaster> except I couldn't be bothered to count number of letters
13:36:10 <zzo38> I don't really care the number of letters either, though.
13:36:26 <AnMaster> E32X
13:36:39 <zzo38> I have written various other chess variants as well on there
13:36:46 <AnMaster> $ echo -n EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX | wc -c
13:36:47 <AnMaster> 34
13:37:45 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Why are you saying EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEX? <-- should be obvious if you read more than half of what was actually said on IRC for once
13:38:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I only missed one comment, then got confused!
13:39:07 <zzo38> My brother also had some ideas, which I then typed out and fixed the rules a bit. One of them is Bland Chess, where there is no diagonal moves (but knight moves are still allowed).
13:39:27 <zzo38> (Diagonal mode of movement of any pieces is not allowed. This means bishops cannot move at all.)
13:39:44 <AnMaster> zzo38, heard of that Discworld chess variant ?
13:39:54 <AnMaster> with two extra columns
13:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> With the assassins?
13:39:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, exactly that one
13:40:03 <zzo38> Yes, I have.
13:40:14 <AnMaster> I think it could be quite playable
13:40:24 <zzo38> I don't know how exactly it is supposed to work but I guessed and wrote an implementation
13:40:31 <AnMaster> um
13:40:40 <AnMaster> I think I have it in the discworld compendium
13:40:43 * AnMaster looks
13:40:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_of_the_Discworld
13:41:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, right
13:41:46 <Phantom_Hoover> So can one go to check in a move?
13:41:59 <AnMaster> in normal chess? no
13:42:07 <AnMaster> in stealth chess: probably not
13:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> In Discworld chess.
13:43:00 <Phantom_Hoover> White moves assassin in right slurk to 7; they can capture up to 6 moves away; it's 5 moves to black's king.
13:44:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, assassins only go 1 square at a time.
13:44:11 <AnMaster> indeed
13:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> But still, after 8 moves in the slurks an assassin can capture any piece on the board, can it not?
13:45:40 <AnMaster> says 15 on wikipedia
13:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> 15 moves overall, yes.
13:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> But that means that as soon as white has made 8 moves it has mate, doesn't it?
13:48:30 <zzo38> That is why it is necessary to make other guesses about things
13:49:08 <zzo38> Here is an example game, played by the computer program against itself: http://sprunge.us/YEWG
13:49:59 <AnMaster> ooh at last schlock mercenary is moving again
13:50:16 <AnMaster> it has been very slow going for a while
13:50:49 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:50:57 <AnMaster> FireFly, hi there
13:51:20 <FireFly> Hello
13:51:41 <zzo38> I also invented Xorix Shogi, it is a shogi game that any piece that captures another piece has its powers XORed with the piece it is capturing.
13:52:37 <zzo38> And Communist Chess, where every time you capture an opponents piece you must destroy one of your own pieces of the same type (although you can choose which one), and if you promote, you must select an opponent's pawn and change it into the same kind of piece you promoted into.
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13:53:59 <AnMaster> <zzo38> That is why it is necessary to make other guesses about things <-- such as?
13:55:00 <zzo38> AnMaster: See the example game
13:55:44 <AnMaster> zzo38, I meant, what are the extra rules. I can't figure that out from the example game
13:55:46 <zzo38> And also Protomorphic-Chess: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSprotomorphic-c
13:56:23 <zzo38> AnMaster: I had to modify the rules a bit, for various reasons. Also I don't know what the proper rules are supposed to be exactly, anyways.
13:56:44 <AnMaster> zzo38, how did you modify them
13:56:48 <AnMaster> that is what I'm asking
13:56:55 <zzo38> Does this help tell you? http://sprunge.us/ELdN
13:57:18 <AnMaster> not really. It is some LISP I see.
13:57:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
13:58:07 <zzo38> That is the best help I can give at this time....
13:58:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
13:58:50 <AnMaster> okay
13:59:49 <Madk> Const gerbil%=1
13:59:49 <Madk> Const kitten%=2
13:59:49 <Madk> Const cat%=3
13:59:54 <Madk> I HAVE BEGUN
13:59:59 <Madk> :P
14:00:02 <AnMaster> what a strange language
14:00:18 <AnMaster> Madk, have you fully defined the AI behaviour of those?
14:00:28 <Madk> That's almost all I've done so far
14:00:31 <Madk> just started XD
14:00:33 <AnMaster> otherwise I fear it is impossible to do a FOSS implementation
14:00:41 <AnMaster> in a really open language
14:00:50 <Madk> FOSS? Your acronym confuses me
14:01:00 <AnMaster> Free/Open Source Software
14:01:15 <AnMaster> Madk, I believe freenode (this irc network) uses it in it's motd
14:01:19 <AnMaster> which I assume you read
14:01:31 <AnMaster> indeed so it does
14:01:42 <Madk> there is no "FOSS" in the motd
14:01:48 <AnMaster> FOSSCON
14:02:08 <AnMaster> fossevents
14:02:14 <Madk> yay for letters?
14:02:23 <AnMaster> Madk, ?
14:02:29 <zzo38> (Issue the MOTD command if you need to see it again; still, it doesn't say what FOSS stands for, it just uses it.)
14:02:38 <AnMaster> zzo38, exactly
14:02:47 <AnMaster> thus I assume people check what it means
14:02:49 <Madk> madk doesn't know hoe to use irc commands
14:02:56 <AnMaster> ah okay
14:03:03 <AnMaster> Madk, /motd
14:03:07 <AnMaster> check server tab
14:03:12 <Madk> that doesn't do anything
14:03:13 <zzo38> You are using XCHAT. I do not know how to use XCHAT
14:03:26 <AnMaster> Madk, it does in xchat, check server tab
14:03:30 <AnMaster> not channel tab
14:03:41 <Madk> ooooh
14:03:57 <AnMaster> anyway it is your responsibility as a user on an IRC network to read and understand the network rules given in motd
14:04:00 <AnMaster> upon connecting
14:04:15 <AnMaster> * - By connecting to freenode you indicate that you have read
14:04:15 <AnMaster> * - and agree to adhere to our policies and procedures as per
14:04:15 <AnMaster> * - the website (http://freenode.net). [...]
14:04:30 <AnMaster> so not reading motd is a bad idea
14:05:03 <zzo38> That assumes you have a web-browser software installed..... Perhaps if they used plain-text, it would not requires so.
14:05:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, everyone had that nowdays though
14:05:29 <AnMaster> zzo38, however if you don't why not go complain in #freenode :P
14:05:45 <zzo38> Like in my IRC server, all help files are accessible using HELP command.
14:06:06 <zzo38> I do have web-browser software on this computer, however.
14:06:09 <AnMaster> zzo38, this ircd has help too
14:06:27 <AnMaster> however /motd and/or /rules are the relevant ones to check for network rules
14:06:28 <Madk> ._. I'm not an open-source guru. Unless I intend otgers to see and use the source to my programs, I don't open-source them
14:06:39 <zzo38> Yes it does, but not to list FAQs and policies and so on.
14:06:42 <AnMaster> Madk, otgers?
14:06:46 <Madk> others
14:06:47 <Madk> type
14:06:48 <AnMaster> ah
14:06:50 <Madk> typo
14:07:16 <Madk> I usually O-S my tools and things, and don't my games.
14:07:26 <AnMaster> I see
14:07:39 <AnMaster> Personally I truly believe in FOSS.
14:07:57 <zzo38> I open-source all my programs as much as possible, sometimes making it public-domain, or sometimes GNU GPL, sometimes multi license. I do this for various reasons, including: freedom, portability, in case other people has ideas to improve it, and more.
14:08:02 <Madk> COMMIES!!!
14:08:07 <Madk> XP
14:08:16 <AnMaster> Madk, point is, it would be nice if you documented your esolangs well enough that anyone else could implement it completely from the spec
14:08:22 <zzo38> Even the games I like to do so.
14:08:24 <AnMaster> without checking your interpreter
14:08:58 <zzo38> There are BSD-style licenses and stuff, but I don't use them. I just GNU GPL or else just public domain.
14:09:04 <Madk> anmaster: I basically describe exactly what the interpreter does in the commands section
14:09:12 <Madk> I don't know what else there is to include
14:09:25 <AnMaster> Madk, I seem to remember there was some confusion over exactly how the AIs of cats and such works
14:10:16 <zzo38> Although in one case, I wrote a program which is dual-licensed "GNU GPL version 2 or later version, or Microsoft Reciprocal License".
14:10:21 <Madk> there is no interpreter for gerbil yet
14:10:23 <AnMaster> Madk, I mean, your spec leaves a lot or room for how the AI of cats and such works.
14:10:31 <Madk> I haven't finished deciding
14:10:35 <AnMaster> Madk, right
14:10:45 <Madk> the AI is going to leave a lot of room for unpredictable behaviour
14:10:48 <AnMaster> Madk, as long as you document it enough at some point I'm happy
14:10:55 <zzo38> (That dual-licensed program is useful for Windows only, and might even be useful for Microsoft to include in later versions of Windows, but it might be useful for ReactOS as well)
14:11:05 <Madk> Once the interpreter is written, I'll describe it fully.
14:11:36 <AnMaster> Madk, good. It would be rather inconvenient if two different implementations did differ in small details about that
14:11:52 <Madk> Yes, I know
14:12:03 <zzo38> What is your opinion on free software licensing?
14:12:17 <Madk> zzo38: who, me?
14:12:22 <AnMaster> zzo38, me? I use GPL3 or BSD
14:12:30 <zzo38> Anyone who wants to answer
14:12:33 <AnMaster> I could use LGPL3 too
14:12:36 <Madk> GNU GPL
14:12:44 <AnMaster> but I haven't yet made any projects where I found that fitting
14:12:57 <Madk> That's what I usually use when I release something
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14:13:12 <zzo38> AnMaster: OK. I generally use GPL3, and public domain, but I don't apply BSD licenses to my software, unless it already is.
14:13:24 <AnMaster> zzo38, how comes?
14:13:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Omygodneilgaimaniswritinganepisodeofdoctorwhoaaaaaa
14:13:54 <zzo38> I could use LGPL3 too, if I write a software for which I find its use that I should use it for.
14:13:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh my indeed
14:14:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that should be _most_ interesting
14:14:18 <zzo38> AnMaster: BSD-style licenses is just permissive, that I don't require copyright and just make it public domain.
14:14:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I read good omens, haven't read sandman
14:14:44 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, read 1-3 of Sandman, the universe is conspiring to stop me from reading 4.
14:14:53 <AnMaster> zzo38, I like getting some recognition that I wrote it.
14:15:19 <zzo38> AnMaster: I have nothing against *you* using such licenses, it is just that I don't.
14:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I've also read American Gods and Fragile Things.
14:15:30 <AnMaster> zzo38, I didn't claim you did
14:15:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not read those :/
14:16:11 <AnMaster> bbl
14:16:35 <zzo38> I don't require recognition that I wrote it. Even if it is GNU GPL, I don't really care about that as much. I only care that copyleft is adhered to.
14:16:51 <zzo38> You can see that I wrote it from where you got the software at first, if you want to.
14:18:25 <zzo38> I have licensed the Icosahedral Role Playing Game under CC-BY-SA, but I don't care much about the attribution requirement. I only care about the share-alike requirement.
14:19:21 <zzo38> However, there is no updated version of CC-SA so I used CC-BY-SA instead.
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15:38:03 * Phantom_Hoover starts building Oolite
15:38:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder if it'll crash my X server again...
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15:54:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Agggh
15:54:19 <Phantom_Hoover> My GPU still hangs when it tries to do fancy shaders.
15:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Weird; APT has mit-scheme-doc but no mit-scheme
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15:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone!
15:57:31 <aliseiphone> Hi
15:57:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I was told to ask you about how the computable reals might be handled in a proof assistant.
15:57:59 <aliseiphone> With difficulty.
15:58:17 <aliseiphone> Protip: computable reals are limited
15:58:24 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Which assistant?
15:58:30 <aliseiphone> Are you writing one?
15:58:34 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
15:58:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I was wondering if it was doable.
15:58:53 <aliseiphone> Of course.
15:59:06 <aliseiphone> Proof assistants use type theory. Well. Most of em
15:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The assistant in mind was Agda.
15:59:14 <aliseiphone> So. Easy. But
15:59:22 <aliseiphone> Don't use Agda.
15:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
15:59:54 <aliseiphone> It's powerful but unstable - falsehoods have been proven several times only to be "patched up" -
16:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> OK.
16:00:05 <aliseiphone> and actually writing proofs is very difficult
16:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Which one then?
16:00:13 <aliseiphone> Coq.
16:00:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Same basis in dependent type theory?
16:00:50 <aliseiphone> It's very old and proven (80s), expressive and powerful, and with a very easy proof method
16:00:54 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: yup
16:01:16 <aliseiphone> Indeed Gpedels first incompleteness theorem has been proven in it
16:01:34 <aliseiphone> by Russell O'Connor http://r6.ca
16:02:26 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: My Coq recommendation: Use Emacs with Proof General. Three window mode and electric mode.
16:02:37 <aliseiphone> Proving is smooth like butter.
16:03:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Citation for the problems with Agda?
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16:04:10 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: have none. But note that in agda you must write proof terms manually
16:04:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
16:04:26 <aliseiphone> This is almost impossuble for anything complex
16:04:34 <aliseiphone> In coq it is interactive
16:04:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, OK.
16:04:42 <aliseiphone> And easy.
16:04:53 <Phantom_Hoover> In which case, can we go back to the CRs?
16:05:00 <aliseiphone> Sure.
16:05:22 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: The obvious defn.:
16:05:31 <aliseiphone> In pseudocode
16:06:47 <aliseiphone> CR := sum (f : Q+ -> Q). forall (e1 e2 : Q+). abs (f e1 - f e2) <= e1 + e2
16:07:02 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: This is a Cauchy sequence of rationals
16:07:28 <aliseiphone> "pi 0.01 = 3.14 or more accurate", basically
16:07:51 <aliseiphone> so a cr is a function like that with a proof of being Cauchy
16:08:12 <Phantom_Hoover> The proof of Cauchyness being the hard bit, then?
16:08:22 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Quite so.
16:08:41 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: You can't even prove
16:08:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Ye
16:08:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep, got that from oerjan.
16:09:00 <aliseiphone> x < 0 \/ x = 0 \/ x > 0
16:09:09 <aliseiphone> for all CR x
16:09:36 <aliseiphone> since a proof would have to construct a proof of equality
16:09:44 <aliseiphone> or a disproof
16:09:49 <aliseiphone> which is impossible
16:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> OK.
16:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> So what about a subset of the CRs for which proofs exist?
16:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, is there a nice set name for the CRs?
16:13:30 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Call CRs "R".
16:13:42 <aliseiphone> They're THE reals inside the theory.
16:13:54 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Um just because proofs exist
16:14:08 <aliseiphone> Doesn't mean a single algo can generate all of them
16:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> A subset for which we have manipulatable proofs?
16:15:09 <aliseiphone> you do not understand
16:15:26 <aliseiphone> (and I cannot explain)
16:16:02 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Russell o'connor has already developed all this in coq btw
16:16:20 <aliseiphone> I think it's in ccorn; if not, his thesis
16:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, right.
16:17:17 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: /my/ pet project is developing continued fractions in Coq; very hard
16:17:41 <aliseiphone> but i think it would be useful or at least interesting
16:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It might.
16:20:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it would.
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16:39:08 <aliseiphone> Hi pikhq.
16:41:12 <pikhq> Yo.
16:47:27 <aliseiphone> So. Operating system design.
17:00:48 <aliseiphone> Pu
17:00:51 <aliseiphone> Oops
17:01:02 <aliseiphone> pikhq: WHAT U
17:01:06 <aliseiphone> IF
17:01:13 <aliseiphone> WHAT IF PROCESSES
17:01:18 <aliseiphone> Are rationals.
17:01:21 <aliseiphone> Duuuude.
17:11:30 <AnMaster> oY
17:13:25 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I think you're drunk.
17:13:30 <pikhq> Or high.
17:13:32 <pikhq> Or both!
17:16:19 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Or ENLIGHTENED.
17:16:59 <aliseiphone> Damn, I should smoke weed and then design aliseOS. The perfect OS for baked idealists.
17:17:07 <aliseiphone> Or, you know, not.
17:19:38 <aliseiphone> pikhq: So I'm thinking that objects are basically...
17:20:14 <aliseiphone> Collections of slots + a bunch of running code contexts (like threads)
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17:20:40 <aliseiphone> And the slots are the whole namespace it can access plus it's own stuff
17:20:45 <aliseiphone> *its
17:21:10 -!- oklopol has joined.
17:21:17 <aliseiphone> Hi oklopol.
17:21:47 <aliseiphone> oklopol: Say, what theoretical monster has your OS morphed into along with yourself? :P
17:29:49 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Hmm. What if we have ... Dynamic namespaces?
17:30:00 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Instead of slots bei g defined in memory
17:30:03 <aliseiphone> *being
17:30:20 <aliseiphone> pikhq: A process in the object gets name requests
17:30:23 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Ans
17:30:30 <aliseiphone> *And returns objects
17:32:18 <pikhq> What if you have... COFFEE.
17:32:26 <pikhq> I think that makes everything better.
17:32:31 <pikhq> Especially MORNING.
17:35:20 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Why do people think "dark co
17:35:27 <aliseiphone> medy" means
17:35:38 <aliseiphone> "comedy where bad things happen"
17:36:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Funny, I thought dark comedy involved the comedy itself being *about* various bad things. The more horrid the better.
17:37:31 <aliseiphone> Comedy with bad things: Bang bang bang! Hmm, you are without a head. [laugh track]
17:37:52 <pikhq> ... Okay, I phrased it poorly.
17:37:59 <aliseiphone> Dark comedy: Not good enough writer to write example
17:38:21 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I get what you were trying to say.
17:38:26 <pikhq> Mmkay.
17:46:37 <aliseiphone> pikhq: [ lookup: (name) => { if name = :happy then {:yes} else {42} } ]
17:46:44 <aliseiphone> Sketch. Of something.
17:48:17 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I want some influencii from Haskell too though...
17:49:45 <aliseiphone> pikhq: aliseOS gets fuzzier by the day.
17:50:17 <pikhq> aliseiphone: STATIC TYPING
17:50:37 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Static...object...typing!
17:50:55 <aliseiphone> These arent so much objects as servers
17:54:42 <aliseiphone> Counter: [ (n): 0; increment: => ~[ n: n+1 ]; value: => n ]
17:55:03 <aliseiphone> pikhq: ~[...] is object augmentation. Look ma, no side effects!
17:56:20 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Private variables (n) are done by having the lookup method check who's asking for the slot.
18:00:35 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Say I want to install puppy to a partition.
18:00:41 <aliseiphone> How much disk will it use?
18:00:58 <pikhq> 100~200 megs?
18:01:31 <aliseiphone> OK.
18:02:03 <aliseiphone> So, 4 gig drive. 3 gigs windows 1 gig puppy?
18:02:43 <pikhq> Sure.
18:03:33 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Actually about 1.5 for puppy
18:03:42 <aliseiphone> Should be comfortable, right?
18:03:57 <pikhq> More than comfortable.
18:05:07 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Now how do I make puppy understand a USB wifi?
18:05:14 <pikhq> I dunno.
18:05:19 <aliseiphone> Ubuntu groks it I'm pretty sure.
18:16:42 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Wow. XP is installing slowly.
18:17:01 <pikhq> Yeah, it does that when you don't de-shit it.
18:17:45 <aliseiphone> pikhq: And use an oooold co
18:17:51 <aliseiphone> mputer.
18:18:00 <pikhq> It's mostly the shit it retains.
18:18:03 <aliseiphone> Wish I had a disc of my MiniXP :P
18:18:06 <pikhq> Remove the fecal matter, and all shall be well.
18:18:41 <aliseiphone> I see.
18:25:10 * pikhq winces...
18:25:17 <aliseiphone> pikhq: ?
18:25:26 <pikhq> Japanese's pre-WWII orthography.
18:25:32 <aliseiphone> Wut
18:25:39 <pikhq> *Their syllabary wasn't phonetic*
18:26:12 <pikhq> Well, rather, it was. *In Middle Japanese.*
18:26:54 <pikhq> "Tokyo", for instance, was actually written as "toukyau"...
18:27:05 <aliseiphone> I think XP has given up on installing.
18:27:39 <pikhq> "En" was written as "Yen"...
18:27:54 <pikhq> ("ye" has *ceased to be a valid syllable in Japanese*.)
18:27:58 <aliseiphone> In kanji you mean?
18:28:08 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Kana. The syllabary.
18:28:14 <aliseiphone> Right.
18:28:29 <pikhq> Well, literal-romanisation-of-kana.
18:28:49 <pikhq> Well. Not even fully such.
18:29:13 <pikhq> "toukixyou" was written is "toukiyau" and "enn" was written as "yenn". Thar.
18:29:15 <aliseiphone> So they used different kana or different romanization?
18:29:24 <aliseiphone> *romanisations
18:29:38 <pikhq> aliseiphone: They used kana differently.
18:29:44 <pikhq> Non-phonetically.
18:29:45 <aliseiphone> Right.
18:30:16 <pikhq> And romanisations were all sorts of fucked up before WWII.
18:30:40 <pikhq> Consider for a moment the word "yen". Which is "en" in Japanese...
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18:31:09 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if one could create a language resistant to parsing
18:31:25 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Perl 5.
18:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Badum-tsh
18:31:47 <aliseiphone> Only parseable by a UTM.
18:31:53 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Not a joke.
18:32:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Which bit of it?
18:32:11 <pikhq> "Motiiru", to use, was written as "motiwiru" or "motihiru". Urgh.
18:32:14 <aliseiphone> Perl's syntax depends on the result of arbitrary Perl code.
18:32:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, indeed.
18:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Perligata and such.
18:32:34 <aliseiphone> No
18:32:37 <aliseiphone> Well yes
18:32:43 <aliseiphone> But also BEGIN
18:33:02 <aliseiphone> Google perl is unparseable or whatever. The perlmonks article.
18:33:06 <aliseiphone> Proves it.
18:33:14 <pikhq> "t`os`ixyou" (dojou), a type of fish, was written "t`ot`iyau" (dodiyau)...
18:34:01 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=663393
18:34:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Perl has always seemed foreign to me.
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18:34:31 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet!
18:37:16 * pikhq hates it when an orthography encodes sounds that have ceased to be in the language
18:38:29 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I should publish the implementation of aliseOS as a Ph.D. thesis XD
18:38:35 <pikhq> aliseiphone: :P
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18:39:42 <pikhq> They had a completely seperate written language until the 1900s. Because commonly available writing fixed the written language a few hundred years back.]
18:39:46 <pikhq> They had a completely seperate written language until the 1900s. Because commonly available writing fixed the written language a few hundred years back.]
18:39:55 <Gregor> WTF
18:40:03 <Gregor> Amazon suggests the following as my "pay phrase":
18:40:05 <Gregor> "Gregor's Architectural Manuals"
18:40:06 <pikhq> Thank you recent history for making Japanese less of a pain.
18:40:13 <aliseiphone> Gregor: XD
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19:05:45 <aliseiphone> oklopol
19:05:50 <aliseiphone> Flar duh ghee.
19:05:59 <aliseiphone> *gbee.
19:06:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Klaatu barada nikto.
19:13:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I desperately want to create a language called "can't be parsed".
19:13:20 <pikhq> Trivial to do, actually.
19:14:06 <pikhq> Make the parser depend upon the haltingness of the previously parsed code.
19:15:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay, the pun may live!
19:15:58 <aliseiphone> pikhq: But the code after inf loop doesn't matter...
19:16:49 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Except that you make it so that the code after an infinite loop can make the infinite loop not happen.
19:17:02 <pikhq> Simplest solution is, of course, to have COMEFROM in the language.
19:17:09 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Lawl.
19:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, y the way.
19:19:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Could you implement TwoDucks' time travel with call/cc?
19:19:52 <pikhq> No, but you could probably do it with the time travel monad.
19:19:57 <pikhq> (ContT State)
19:20:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Why couldn't you/
19:20:29 <aliseiphone> No.
19:20:35 <Phantom_Hoover> s|/|?|
19:20:39 <aliseiphone> You can do it with IOT.
19:21:02 <pikhq> aliseiphone: What, does it also time travel the IO?
19:21:08 <aliseiphone> Yes.
19:21:11 <aliseiphone> Iirc.
19:21:18 <pikhq> Yeah, you'd need IOT for that.
19:21:18 <aliseiphone> It's super TC...
19:21:22 <aliseiphone> *iirc
19:21:24 <pikhq> Also, sorry; StateT Cont.
19:21:40 <pikhq> IOT Cont would be nice to have.
19:24:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I have come to the conclusion that Neil Cicierega is Doctor Who's brother.
19:24:06 <Phantom_Hoover> IT ALL MAKES SENSE.
19:24:35 <aliseiphone> It...doesn't.
19:26:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It makes sense for a given value of "sense".
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19:26:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, omygodneilgaimaniswritinganepisodeofdoctorwho
19:26:49 <aliseiphone> Hi impomatic.
19:26:54 <oklopol> "<pikhq> Trivial to do, actually." <<< indeed, you can pretty much name things any way you want
19:27:16 <impomatic> HI aliseiphone
19:27:57 <pikhq> oklopol: :D
19:28:08 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: yesiknowomgthatshallbeawesome
19:28:26 <oklopol> my head hurts
19:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, yesyesyesyesyes
19:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> imustgointosuspendedanimationuntilitsbroadcast
19:29:38 <oklopol> so umm why isn't one marker useful for a finite state automaton?
19:30:08 <oklopol> we have an FSM that can carry a marker around on the input string, detect it when over it, carry it, and drop it elsewhere
19:30:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'll go into the future while holding onto a continuation so I can pass back a continuation.
19:30:23 <pikhq> Mmm, IOT Cont.
19:30:25 <oklopol> one marker isn't useful, can anyway explain why exactly?
19:31:10 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, everyone knows you can't go into the future with a continuation!
19:31:39 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes you can. If you went there the long way and used one to go back while holding onto a continuation FROM THE FUUTUUURE
19:31:43 <pikhq> :P
19:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover> So you need suspended animation in the first place.
19:32:10 <pikhq> Or patience.
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19:35:04 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I have no patience for Neil Gaiman /\ Doctor Who.
19:36:07 <aliseiphone> No abusing /\ :(
19:37:41 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: That's why I'm bringing the continuation back for you.
19:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool.
19:37:54 * pikhq passes Phantom_Hoover a continuation. Be sure to retain the current one!
19:38:07 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, got the continuation.
19:38:27 * Phantom_Hoover call/ccs to get the current one.
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19:38:40 <pikhq> Man, continuation-passing style time travel.
19:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Now, how do I apply the Gaiman one?
19:38:55 <pikhq> Call it with yourself as an argument!
19:39:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Moreover, what's the probability that I'll meet you after time travel?
19:39:08 <pikhq> 1!
19:39:16 <impomatic> I'm struggling to find a domain name. I'm after something like tinycode.com
19:39:41 <impomatic> All the decent names are taken, but most are just parked :-(
19:40:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, how do I call things in reality?
19:40:58 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ghci; :m +IOT; continuation (fromReality "Phantom_Hoover")
19:41:46 <aliseiphone> impomatic: mincode.st :P
19:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, no Scheme continuations?
19:42:46 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, also, where will this continuation take me?
19:42:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: continuation isn't a Cont function is it?
19:43:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I hardly want to end up in pikhq's house.
19:43:10 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ... No. That was a bit erroneous.
19:43:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It will take you to a theater I rented for the sole purpose of displaying that episode.
19:43:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool.
19:43:53 <pikhq> I stole a lot of money and then made the money not have been stolen while still possessing the money.
19:43:56 <pikhq> :P
19:43:56 <aliseiphone> You know... Doctor Who kinda sucks.
19:44:09 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, BUT NEIL GAIMAN
19:44:26 <aliseiphone> It used to be entertaining not-sci fi. Now it's vaguely entertaining *anti*-sci fi.
19:44:29 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ... Okay, UK citizenship hereby revoked.
19:44:43 <aliseiphone> Under control of a fanboy trying to leave his mark
19:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I've been getting more dissatisfied with it, but in any case NEIL GAIMAN
19:44:55 <aliseiphone> (who USED to produce excellent episodes)
19:45:12 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Deny it if you want. It's the truth!
19:45:31 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, none of this affects the fact that IT'S NEIL GAIMAN
19:46:25 <aliseiphone> Can we make everything awesome by connecting it to Gaiman? Let's start with amanda fucking palmer and trace outwards.
19:46:35 <pikhq> aliseiphone:
19:46:41 <pikhq> Read you some Gaiman.
19:46:48 <aliseiphone> Im kidding ffs
19:47:01 <aliseiphone> I dislike doctor who now; but this is joking
19:49:01 <Phantom_Hoover> By the way, have I stated my outrage at the absence of vol. 5 of The Sandman from ANYTHING.
19:49:28 <aliseiphone> Hey. Gaiman used to be a scientologist.
19:49:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously?
19:49:41 <aliseiphone> Therefore Scientology is awesome!
19:49:46 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Yup.
19:49:53 <aliseiphone> See Wikipedia bio.
19:50:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, yeah.
19:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Second-generation, though.
19:50:22 <aliseiphone> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Gaiman
19:50:28 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: So's Beck.
19:50:41 <aliseiphone> Still a scientologist no matter the generations.
19:51:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, but I can understand more if it's because of your parents.
19:53:33 <aliseiphone> "His father's position as a public relations official of the Church of Scientology"
19:53:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Precisely.
19:53:41 <aliseiphone> Dayum. :)
19:53:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not as if he was sane, then became a Scientologist.
19:54:00 <Ilari> Hmm... I should make pages for esolangs I have designed on Esowiki...
19:54:13 <Phantom_Hoover> He was a Scientologist, then became sane.
19:55:21 <Ilari> I wonder if I even have decent descriptions for first two (apart from reference implementation code).
19:56:06 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:59:37 <aliseiphone> dog gammitting
20:03:43 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Amish!
20:11:33 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:18:19 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, where were you yesterday?
20:19:04 <aliseiphone> Busy.
20:19:07 <aliseiphone> Sorry.
20:20:15 <fizzie> You should be! Being on-channel is the stern duty of everyone, no excuses.
20:20:30 * pikhq is on-channel even when sleeping
20:20:41 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Say, why the iPhone while freedom-having?
20:21:28 <Sgeo> aliseiphone is free?
20:21:41 <pikhq> Sgeo: Is weekend.
20:22:03 <Sgeo> It's SUNDAY?
20:22:06 * Sgeo blinks
20:22:35 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Long story. Right now fixing the shit laptop.
20:23:23 <aliseiphone> fizzie: People have good reason to fear for me when I'm not here :P
20:23:45 <aliseiphone> I'll be out so soon... then it's over.
20:24:25 <fizzie> I guess, it was just the tone.
20:25:12 <aliseiphone> :)
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20:40:37 <aliseiphone> Any windowser around?
20:40:53 <aliseiphone> Should I upgrade to sp3 before disabling product activation?
20:41:13 * Sgeo is a Windowser, but doesn't know the answer
20:41:16 <pikhq> You should totally, totally slipstream SP3.
20:41:23 <Sgeo> Wouldn't it depend on how you disable it?
20:41:37 <Sgeo> I'd imagine some ways might not block upgrades, and some would
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20:42:03 <Sgeo> Or just listen to pikhq
20:42:26 <aliseiphone> I'm on SP0.
20:42:42 <aliseiphone> With the FCKGW key :)
20:42:57 <aliseiphone> So upgrade to sp3 disable wga disable activation?
20:43:18 <Sgeo> sp0 will not work on my comp
20:45:29 <aliseiphone> Sp0 seems faster than sp3
20:47:32 <aliseiphone> Is it?
20:48:15 <pikhq> Until you put it on the Internet and get every virus simultaneously.
20:48:39 <aliseiphone> pikhq: This thing has 64 megs ram
20:48:47 <aliseiphone> Viruses would run out of memory.
20:49:17 <pikhq> aliseiphone: You'd still have them all.
20:49:22 <pikhq> You'd just be swapping forever.
20:49:42 <aliseiphone> but this thing is bearable! Sp3 wasn't.
20:50:01 <pikhq> MiniXP SP3.
20:50:12 <pikhq> Also, it *will* cease to be bearable once it's on the Internet.
20:50:28 <pikhq> Not even "once you do something stupid like run the ILOVEYOU email".
20:50:39 <pikhq> *Packets come in and you're fucked.*
20:50:45 <aliseiphone> It's on the Internet XD
20:50:52 <pikhq> Then you're fucked.
20:51:00 <pikhq> Clean it and install again.
20:51:01 <aliseiphone> Not yet...
20:51:06 <pikhq> Yes, yet.
20:51:12 <aliseiphone> No.
20:51:35 <aliseiphone> pikhq: It has received 3703 packets.
20:51:37 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:51:45 <aliseiphone> I have loaded maybe 7 pages.
20:51:52 <aliseiphone> All packets accounted for.
20:51:52 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:51:57 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:52:03 <aliseiphone> pikhq: And no open ports
20:52:07 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:52:09 <aliseiphone> Router NAT
20:52:12 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:52:36 <aliseiphone> Shut up and use your brain. I can't install sp3 without downloading it
20:52:50 <pikhq> Use a different system to download the SP3 EXE.
20:52:53 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
20:53:03 <aliseiphone> Can't. And STFU.
20:53:09 <pikhq> I would not trust an unpatched XP system that has ever been on the Internet at all.
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20:53:23 <aliseiphone> S
20:53:24 <aliseiphone> T
20:53:24 <aliseiphone> F
20:53:25 <aliseiphone> U
20:53:28 <pikhq> Seriously, XP SP0 is the least secure system ever.
20:53:45 <aliseiphone> Which is why I only connect for the time I load a page.
20:53:55 <pikhq> I am not kidding when I say that *putting it on the Internet* gets it infected.
20:53:58 <aliseiphone> IT IS BEHIND A NAT
20:54:05 <aliseiphone> NOBODY CAN ACCESS ANY PORT
20:54:09 <aliseiphone> *ANY*
20:55:01 <aliseiphone> Yeah. On google and the xplite site
20:55:53 <pikhq> You are running an arbitrary-native-code-execution-engine on your system and feeding it sites from the Internet. Wipe the fucking drive.
20:56:12 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me that I once got attacked before routing tables were updated (which happened few seconds after connection was up).
20:56:21 <aliseiphone> Oh shut up. I'm being very careful.
20:56:26 <aliseiphone> I have no other option.
20:56:53 <pikhq> You ran unpatched IE from an unpatched XP system. In short, you are fucked.
20:57:17 <aliseiphone> You are putting blind ideology before the facts.
20:58:05 <pikhq> The facts are: you'd be more secure if you were accessing the web soley via downloading arbitrary COM files and running them in DOS, if only because hardly anyone bothers to attack DOS any more.
20:58:30 <aliseiphone> pikhq: You know I am going to run a scanner after upgrading.
20:58:49 <Gregor> HACKED SCANNER
20:59:08 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Won't necessarily help. Many viruses, once installed, will patch virus scanners so they don't get detected.
20:59:45 <aliseiphone> God pikhq is paranoid. :)
20:59:52 <aliseiphone> I'm bring very careful.
20:59:56 <aliseiphone> *being
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21:00:23 <pikhq> You're running the least secure OS with virtual memory.
21:00:28 <aliseiphone> Deewiant: What's that wga inhibitor?
21:00:54 <Deewiant> muBlinder
21:01:26 <aliseiphone> Thanks
21:02:16 <aliseiphone> Deewiant: It wants me to register. Jeez
21:02:29 <Deewiant> Yeah, to download it
21:02:44 <Deewiant> I may've made a bugmenot account for it, can't remember
21:03:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: "About NetHack: between hurworth and neasham. (bulfinch's mythology, by alexandre dumas): anya, get out of spain. one finds all kinds. (...)"
21:03:08 <aliseiphone> bugm3n0t works
21:03:42 <Deewiant> Then I probably did, because I think there wasn't one when I got it
21:04:04 <aliseiphone> Deewiant: Heh. It doesn't run.
21:04:14 <aliseiphone> Fails to initialize.
21:04:31 <Deewiant> Needs .NET
21:04:43 <Deewiant> If you have it, beats me.
21:04:44 <aliseiphone> Ah
21:04:56 <Deewiant> Can't remember which version; it might say on the page.
21:05:07 <aliseiphone> 2
21:10:33 <aliseiphone> FUCK
21:11:07 <aliseiphone> Winstaller 4 needs sp2. Sp2 won't install without muinder requires net requires winstaller
21:11:12 <aliseiphone> Solution?
21:11:48 <Ilari> aliseiphone: Install some more secure browser and use that and forget the SP?
21:12:20 <aliseiphone> Ilari: But then pikhq will rape me until I smash it with a hammer.
21:14:27 <aliseiphone> Deewiant: Can you upgrade to sp2 using an xpsp2 disk?
21:14:30 <aliseiphone> CD
21:14:46 <Deewiant> Dunno
21:16:38 <Madk> CHEKKIT OUT http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF2C
21:16:46 <Madk> My first compiler, rather than an interpreter
21:17:13 <aliseiphone> Why does it have an article?
21:17:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:17:26 <Madk> because it's awesome
21:17:33 <aliseiphone> -_-
21:17:44 <Madk> it's because I want to only have links on my user page
21:17:51 <aliseiphone> You wrote like 99% of the wiki by now.
21:17:56 <aliseiphone> Slow down.
21:17:56 <Madk> and I have to put that somewhere
21:17:59 <Madk> XP
21:18:02 <fizzie> If it translates brainfuck to C, you can barely call it a compiler; also.
21:18:11 <aliseiphone> Want doesn't justify spam. Stop.
21:18:16 <Madk> ._.
21:18:23 <Madk> I'm not spamming.
21:18:37 <Madk> I haven't created a page if it wasn't for something useful
21:19:03 <Madk> I've implemented all but my newest esolang idea, and I've implemented a handful of previously unimplemented languages
21:19:22 <aliseiphone> A BF to C compiler takes about 10 lines. There are thousands.
21:19:23 <augur> hey all
21:19:25 <augur> hey lia
21:19:27 <augur> .. aliseiphone
21:19:36 <aliseiphone> Does it do advanced optimisations?
21:19:41 <Madk> I saw a link to one on the BF page
21:19:50 <Madk> it does some
21:19:53 <aliseiphone> Yes. An external link.
21:19:54 <Madk> very little, though
21:20:07 <aliseiphone> See esotope. That should have a page.
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21:37:57 <ais523> Madk: some people have been complaining about some of your edits to Esolang; I've given you some advice at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Madk which should hopefully help to avoid problems in the future
21:43:28 <Madk> as for the first point, I don't recall doing anything like this.
21:43:46 <Madk> I intentionally try to only link to another page once
21:44:31 <fizzie> ais523: You are the very model of a modern mediator.
21:44:57 <ais523> Madk: ah, OK; just relaying what people have said, it's great that you're doing that already
21:46:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:46:38 <Gregor> fizzie: He's information vegetable, animal and mineral!
21:47:39 <pikhq> Gregor: That's the very model of a singularitarian, sorry.
21:48:44 <fizzie> Also I could add that if you want a link to BF2C, you could just link to "Brainfuck#Implementations" (isn't that the section-link syntax?) with BF2C in the visible link text; anyone reading will probably understand that the link conceptually points to the one implementation named in it.
21:49:06 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
21:49:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover,
21:50:03 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's the correct syntax
21:52:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, what does BF2C have over other compilers?
21:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Like esotope.
21:53:11 <Madk> erm... I did not see that there were other compilers. Had I seen any, I would've kept to my business with it
21:53:19 <Madk> I saw esotope, yes, but no others
21:53:34 <pikhq> There's gigantic tons of compilers.
21:53:52 <ais523> Madk: see external resources section in http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck
21:53:59 <Madk> Then thst was judt my mistake :/
21:54:21 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, did you make that compiler to x86 assembly, by the way?
21:54:21 <Madk> no, there are a ton of interpreters, of course
21:54:34 <oerjan> <pikhq> "Tokyo", for instance, was actually written as "toukyau"...
21:54:43 <Madk> but only the one seems to be capable of getting a bf source file into an executable
21:54:45 <oerjan> that's almost the english pronunciation isn't it :D
21:54:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I did make one, yeah.
21:54:52 <pikhq> oerjan: No.
21:54:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, it kind of says in the article that BF was *created* to be compiled.
21:55:02 <fizzie> There is also at least one called "BF2C": http://bf2c.sourceforge.net/
21:55:05 <pikhq> oerjan: Also, I screwed that up. "Toukiyau".
21:55:09 <Madk> ._.
21:55:13 <oerjan> hm
21:55:14 <Madk> My apologies, as I said
21:55:38 <ais523> isn't awib a compiler?
21:55:47 <ais523> that one's notable due to being written in BF itself
21:55:47 <pikhq> ais523: Yes.
21:55:59 <pikhq> It generates ELFs. Directly.
21:56:02 <fizzie> It's notable due to the awesome name.
21:56:04 <ais523> yep
21:56:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, there's also c2bf.
21:56:31 <fizzie> "Also Written In BrainFuck is also written in brainfuck."
21:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it's not perfect.
21:56:39 <Madk> yes, I get it, I get it.
21:56:52 <oerjan> <pikhq> ("ye" has *ceased to be a valid syllable in Japanese*.)
21:57:02 <Phantom_Hoover> What? But we're just pontificating on BF stuff now.
21:57:15 <Phantom_Hoover> And there's a bijection from the nats to BF.
21:57:17 <oerjan> wait, you mean their currency isn't actually pronounced "yen" in japanese?
21:58:01 <ais523> oerjan: "yen" would be a different syllable to "ye"
21:58:39 <pikhq> ais523: I should've said "mora", not "syllable".
21:58:42 <Ilari> Hmm... Postselection time travel... Requires nonlinear QM... Wouldn't that imply that BQP would equal PSPACE?
21:58:42 <oerjan> ais523: um yen(n) was the example pikhq used of ye.
21:58:47 <ais523> ah
21:58:51 <pikhq> Japanese is a mora-structured language.
21:58:54 <pikhq> "n" is a mora.
21:59:06 <pikhq> "ye" is no longer a mora. It was a few hundred years ago.
21:59:41 <pikhq> oerjan: Their currency is pronounced "en", yes. Also, "Iwo Jima" is not pronounced that way any more.
22:00:20 <pikhq> The *kana* for wo only exists for the object particle, and is only read *as* "wo" in a few dialects of Japanese. (... And rock music.)
22:01:47 <pikhq> If it's got "wo", "kwa", "ye", "yi", "we", or "wi" in it, the romanisation is horrifically wrong.
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22:02:54 <oerjan> mhm
22:04:11 <pikhq> And if it's got "di" or "du", it's suspect...
22:04:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:05:09 <pikhq> (nowadays the voiced "t" in those are read "ji" and "zu", *but* some romanisations will do those as "di" and "du", to disambiguate with the voiced "s", read "ji" and "zu")
22:08:11 <aliseiphone> Bjorn was deathly afraid of beetles. DEATHLY afraid.
22:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it possible to prevent stack overflow when recursive calls come in the middle of a function?
22:08:59 <ais523> ugh, I'm having an argument (turning into a bit of a flamewar) in another channel as to what proportion Macs are out of all computers in existence, even broken ones
22:09:11 <ais523> someone's claiming it's less than 0.01%, I'm claiming it's a lot higher, around 1% or even a bit more
22:09:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you will instead get absurdly large continuations.
22:10:04 <pikhq> Alternately, you will have absurdly large *thunks*.
22:10:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, that person is patently an idiot.
22:10:21 <aliseiphone> ais523: Do Apple IIs count?
22:10:33 <ais523> aliseiphone: I don't know, but I doubt it matters
22:10:40 <ais523> let's say anything marketed by apple with "Mac" in its name
22:10:43 <aliseiphone> If so... It's more like 20%.
22:10:45 <ais523> that is a computer
22:11:03 <ais523> aliseiphone: it may have been at the time, but more recently produced computers probably massively outnumber Apple IIs
22:11:12 <aliseiphone> Maybe.
22:11:28 <pikhq> ais523: All computers in existence?
22:11:38 <pikhq> That depends on how you define "computer".
22:11:41 <ais523> pikhq: agreed
22:11:52 <ais523> the discussion seems to be assuming "desktop or laptop/notebook computer"
22:12:00 <aliseiphone> Oh.
22:12:12 <aliseiphone> Then lets say 10% macs or more.
22:12:28 <aliseiphone> If servers. God knows.
22:12:33 <ais523> aliseiphone: Mac market share has historically never been above 10%
22:12:38 <ais523> so how could it be above 10% now?
22:12:43 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, why is this person hysterically anti-Mac?
22:12:53 <pikhq> I'd call it 2%-ish.
22:12:56 <aliseiphone> Phantom_Hoover: Fanboy.y
22:12:59 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: he said he saw thousands of computers working in tech support
22:13:04 <aliseiphone> You cannot infer that
22:13:11 <ais523> I suspect he may have been a Windows tech support person, in which case of course he was only called out to Windows shops
22:13:19 <aliseiphone> from what ais said about him
22:13:38 <aliseiphone> ais523: Then 7%.
22:13:55 <ais523> probably, only Microsoft knows
22:13:56 <pikhq> ais523: I'd suspect Mac computers go in less.
22:14:08 <ais523> they have more accurate PC and Windows share figures than anyone else
22:14:13 <pikhq> What with them being somewhat better hardware and less flakey OS.
22:14:18 <ais523> perhaps
22:14:46 <ais523> certainly, I can imagine that there are a lot more low-quality PCs than low-quality Macs
22:14:52 <aliseiphone> pikhq: But old macs...
22:15:18 * ais523 vaguely wonders what the shortest sequence of letters with no Google hits is
22:15:25 * ais523 guesses 5 or 6 letters
22:15:28 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Still work.
22:15:29 <pikhq> :P
22:15:58 <aliseiphone> How do i install sp2 when it rejects my key?
22:16:12 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, don't forget long pages of quasi-random ASCII
22:16:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not
22:16:36 <ais523> 5 or 6 seems to be the right level to make combinations that all those pages miss by chance
22:16:49 <ais523> (it's what made me reject 4)
22:17:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, but Google doesn't accept a lot of printable ASCII
22:19:57 <pikhq> ais523: *Characters*, or letters in ASCII?
22:21:38 <ais523> ASCII letters
22:21:48 <ais523> I said "letters" for a reason, but forgot to qualify which language
22:21:50 <pikhq> Curses.
22:28:40 <aliseiphone> Hmm
22:32:51 <oerjan> ais523: haven't found one yet, there's a particular kind of spam that keeps getting me a single hit on things like tpqxkc
22:33:02 <ais523> agreed
22:33:08 <ais523> although, I'm surprised you're actually trying
22:33:29 <oerjan> i first tried with 5 but couldn't get it below a few hundred hits
22:33:53 <oerjan> well i'm only trying with very unpronouncable things containing rare letters, obviously
22:35:24 <oerjan> ah! ntqkxc works
22:36:02 <oerjan> (until google gets to these logs, anyhow >:D)
22:36:08 <aliseiphone> Now make an esolang called that.
22:36:57 <aliseiphone> Notify, Talk, Queue, Kill, eXecute, Create.
22:37:04 <aliseiphone> Based on processes clearly.
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22:45:24 <aliseiphone> Dammit
22:45:36 <oerjan> ?
22:46:56 <aliseiphone> Stupid XP
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22:57:32 <oerjan> ais523: see non-hit above in case you didn't notice
22:58:00 -!- Madk has joined.
22:58:26 <ais523> oerjan: yep, I noticed
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23:19:28 <Ilari> Haha: "'the ruthlessness of a COBOL compiler forces you to create readable, structured code' [...] You should ALTER your views on this subject.".
23:21:01 <Ilari> There probably isn't esolang with implments segmentation and ALTER like COBOL...
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23:27:03 <oerjan> !haskell replicate' n x = x : replicate (n-1) x; kol = concat . zipWith replicate' kol $ cycle [1,2]; main = print $ take 100 col
23:27:15 <oerjan> !haskell replicate' n x = x : replicate (n-1) x; kol = concat . zipWith replicate' kol $ cycle [1,2]; main = print $ take 100 kol
23:27:18 <EgoBot> Stack space overflow: current size 8388608 bytes.
23:27:27 <oerjan> huh
23:27:39 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
23:27:47 <oerjan> oh duh
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23:45:17 <Madk> I'm trying to come up with an esolang idea that is radically different from anything already existing. I'm trying to fugure something out that is as far from a turing machine as possible, but would perhaps still be turing-complete
23:45:37 <ais523> those esolangs are the best esolangs
23:45:41 <Madk> The best things I've come up with would be totally unusable for writing a program
23:45:42 <ais523> although ofc it's quite hard to think up that sort of thing
23:45:55 <ais523> and if it's TC, it's unlikely to be completley unusable
23:46:32 <Gregor> Start with recursive neural networks. And work from there? :P
23:46:35 <Madk> the best things I've been able to come up with are along the lines of 1D cellular automata
23:47:10 <Madk> gregor: that wouldn't be any good, I don't want the program to be unpredictable, just different
23:47:36 <Gregor> I said START from there, not FINISH there, it's up to you to figure out how to make it deterministic (or at least deterministic in certain cases)
23:48:16 <Madk> ._.
23:51:31 <SevenInchBread> :o
23:51:35 <SevenInchBread> someone pinged me but now they're gone.
23:51:49 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet.
23:51:58 <Gregor> <CakeProphet> That's what they get for pinging me! MUAHAHAHAHAHAH
23:51:59 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover
23:52:00 <oerjan> SevenInchBread: YOU WERE THEIR ONLY HOPE AND NOW IT'S TOO LATE
23:52:09 <CakeProphet> FUUUUUUUUUUUUU
23:52:18 <Gregor> oerjan: Gee, we both went in such different directions with that :P
23:52:52 <oerjan> great minds think radically different
23:53:02 <oerjan> (see above)
23:53:29 <oerjan> alas 1d cellular automata aren't new either
23:53:33 <CakeProphet> oerjan: but I think that great minds think the same!
23:53:52 <Madk> I didn't say they were good ideas, just my best
23:54:37 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
23:54:46 <Madk> I'm putting off gerbil because pathfinding is going to be horrific .-.
23:55:51 <CakeProphet> teach your computer Taoism
23:55:54 <CakeProphet> and they will know the Way
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