←2010-07-25 2010-07-26 2010-07-27→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:25:58 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/teddy.gif
00:26:36 <oerjan> om nom nom nom?
00:32:12 <Gregor> Mmmmmm
00:32:13 <Gregor> Human
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00:41:09 <Gregor> augur: http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif THIS HAS NO CONVERSATIONAL RELEVANCE
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00:42:35 <augur> 8D
00:43:01 <oerjan> except for the nom, which was obviously added because of it
00:43:33 <Gregor> oerjan: Actually I made a more optimized version and had to give it a new name :P
00:44:05 <Gregor> I stole that from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8 , which you should watch if you feel you're no longer in need of your sanity.
00:46:44 <oerjan> oh i'm definitely in need of my sanity. now if i could just remember where i put it...
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01:50:29 <alise> Oh my life.
01:50:46 <pikhq> Oh?
01:54:14 <ais523> wow, it's pretty late for you to be online
01:54:27 <alise> I'm usually on at this time. Why?
01:54:47 <ais523> I mean, you normally come online earlier
01:54:50 <ais523> and would be leaving around now
01:54:59 <alise> Not around now, no.
01:55:06 <ais523> also, I note it's a Monday, and yet you aren't on your iPhone
01:55:26 <ais523> presumably because you don't have to go there until what normal people consider the morning?
01:55:34 <oerjan> it's only 2 hours since aliseiphone left
01:55:41 <ais523> oh, aha
01:55:57 <alise> ais523: yes; I haven't slept yet.
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02:20:38 <SevenInchBread> alise: looks like you have a stalker. :)
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02:20:45 <alise> Hm?
02:20:52 <CakeProphet> god damnit IRC. stop disconnecting me and changing my nick.
02:21:05 <CakeProphet> alise: in ais523
02:21:07 <CakeProphet> :)
02:21:19 <ais523> no, not really
02:21:24 <ais523> I'm just being sociable
02:21:49 <CakeProphet> ...my humor is not appreciated, it seems.
02:22:07 <ais523> humour generally needs to actually be funny
02:23:03 <alise> bjorn vork'd stairs were up the -- he saw light -- trod onwards what's this spicy light ; frightening events -- trod trod trod. stairs. more stairs and steeper now vertical climb screes rocks bjorn hooks on with teeth as legs fall... stretch crumble scrummage up towards top, what's top. angel angel okay "this is " what is "the thing you need--" he fell "--bjorn!" caught by angel with newfound adolescent delight & fury he climbed. -- rocks fall up up vertica
02:23:04 <alise> l pushing so gravity makes glonk glonk go feet plod in light & bjorn climbs & bjorn climbs & bjorn climbs & it's the top & he's there & unfantastic light humbly casts upon him & he absorbs it in & it is nothing much & it is nothing special & it is home
02:25:49 <alise> Bjorn is, like, the most confused person ever.
02:25:51 <oerjan> The Bjorn Chronicles
02:25:54 <alise> His life keeps jumping wildly between uncorrelated events.
02:25:59 <alise> *unrelated
02:26:02 <alise> Why did I say uncorrelated?
02:26:05 <ais523> you don't need to fix that
02:26:10 <alise> I know.
02:26:11 <ais523> uncorrelated seems just fine in that context
02:26:15 <alise> But I didn't mean uncorrelated, not really.
02:26:15 <ais523> and probably more fun
02:26:16 <oerjan> *Anachronicles
02:27:52 <alise> oerjan: i was thinking "The Chronicles of the Life and Times of Bjorn, [long list of ridiculous titles]"
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02:36:02 <alise> there once was a person who bjorn
02:36:02 <alise> had good inkling of thought to scorn
02:36:02 <alise> but this man did say
02:36:02 <alise> "i'll tell you, okay,
02:36:02 <alise> why and how are our fates are born."
02:36:03 <alise>
02:36:05 <alise> "tell me young man with grandeoise plans,
02:36:07 <alise> do you know of the various & diverse clans?"
02:36:09 <alise> to bjorn's reply, the young man devised
02:36:11 <alise> a suitable response without any lies:
02:36:13 <alise> "those issues are those of man's."
02:36:15 <alise>
02:36:17 <alise> "codswallop, trivial and wrong;
02:36:19 <alise> i'll have you singing my song
02:36:21 <alise> before the end of the day
02:36:23 <alise> your thoughts will sway
02:36:25 <alise> and you'll realign your ways, dear mong."
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02:42:21 <alise> /yawn
02:45:15 <alise> 23:33:49 * cheater99 suddenly finds a forgotten stash of porn movies.
02:45:16 <alise> 23:43:00 * pikhq is certain you will soon regret finding it
02:45:18 <alise> "...Mother?!"
02:45:31 <cheater99> aw
02:45:38 <pikhq> :D
02:45:38 <cheater99> that's cuuuute
02:46:05 <Gregor> ...
02:46:06 <Gregor> NOT
02:46:07 <Gregor> CUTE
02:46:47 <cheater99> why?
02:46:49 <cheater99> incest is best
02:47:01 <Gregor> `addquote <cheater99> incest is best
02:47:03 <HackEgo> 197|<cheater99> incest is best
02:47:16 <cheater99> you probably didn't know alise is actually my younger sister
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02:49:41 <alise> en-GB-oed is weird
02:49:43 <Gregor> Ahhhhh. I didn't realize he'd actually gotten the sex change operation.
02:49:51 <alise> (real-IZE but ana-LYSE)
02:50:01 <alise> Gregor: "he" :P
02:50:16 <Gregor> Well
02:50:16 <Gregor> ex-he
02:50:46 <alise> Wouldn't the appropriate word in that case be "she"? :P
02:51:07 * pikhq proposes we remove gendered pronouns
02:51:32 <alise> Suggest us something that isn't obviously a good idea.
02:52:24 <oerjan> remove _all_ pronouns
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02:52:39 <cheater99> remove all language.
02:52:49 <cheater99> we should start communicating with direct mental imagery.
02:52:54 <cheater99> now THAT would be nice.
02:53:15 <alise> yeah but then imagine communicating with /you/.
02:53:30 <cheater99> it would totally intimidate you
02:53:36 <cheater99> no, it wouldn't be pornography
02:53:52 <cheater99> it would be the most mind-twisting imagination of R^n for n>3.
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02:54:16 <pikhq> oerjan: Turn English into pro-drop? Amenable.
02:54:36 <cheater99> you wouldn't stand a moment, alise.
02:54:57 <alise> somehow i don't believe cheater99 can actually see in >3D.
02:54:59 <alise> gasp
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02:55:07 <pikhq> Having removed, English becomes concise. Like.
02:55:09 <cheater99> that would be wrong
02:55:18 <cheater99> you obviously don't know jack, alise
02:55:43 <cheater99> my mental prowess is beyond anything you could put a finger on.
02:55:44 <alise> pikhq is dumb. think wants a simpler language; think will find hopes are misguided, as language becomes incomprehensible.
02:55:56 <alise> cheater99: only matched by your humbleness.
02:56:14 <cheater99> only matched what?
02:56:21 <cheater99> don't understand.
02:56:43 <cheater99> will stop being silly?
02:57:01 <pikhq> alise: Incomprehensible? No worse than Japanese; pro-drop too.
02:57:16 <cheater99> i beg to differ.
02:57:21 <cheater99> anata is a simple pronoun.
02:57:26 <cheater99> so are kore, watashi, etc.
02:57:30 <alise> pikhq: how do you say "him and I" in Japanese?
02:57:36 <pikhq> cheater99: And they are hardly ever used.
02:57:36 <alise> sorry
02:57:43 <alise> how do say "and" in Japanese? :P
02:57:49 <cheater99> no
02:57:51 <pikhq> alise: to
02:57:56 <cheater99> to, yes
02:58:15 <alise> pikhq: it was a joke
02:58:19 <alise> "him and I", how do you say that.
02:58:21 <cheater99> pikhq: they're hardly ever used but they're not inexistant
02:58:25 <pikhq> kare to watashi
02:59:21 <pikhq> cheater99: They're also etymologically derived from not-pronouns. "Anata" is something akin to "in that direction", kore is "the item over here", boku is "your humble servant", omae is "Honorable person over there", kimi is "Lord", and so on...
02:59:42 <cheater99> pronouns are pronouns
02:59:55 <cheater99> polish doesn't use pronouns for day to day simple conversation
03:00:02 <cheater99> or rather
03:00:04 <alise> so without pronouns, are all confused; but is simpler, so all rejoice, seems.
03:00:12 <cheater99> it uses a lot of them, but not personal ones
03:00:27 <pikhq> alise: Not confused; quite simple to understand.
03:00:42 <cheater99> there are special rules because the information carried by many pronouns is carried in the words surrounding them.
03:00:56 <alise> pikhq: but throw away metasyntactic version of "pikhq"? why?
03:01:23 <pikhq> Japanese just omits pretty much any part of the sentence that is obvious.
03:01:46 <alise> heh, a virus is a stand-alone program; a worm can only infect another program
03:01:51 <alise> talk about a reversal
03:03:23 <cheater99> huh
03:03:29 <cheater99> where did you get those definitions from
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03:05:11 <cheater99> ??
03:05:12 <alise> wikipedia using it offhand was what inspired me to make that remark; but i knew it already
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03:05:52 <cheater99> those are some dumb definitions
03:06:11 <alise> they're the widely-accepted ones ...
03:06:31 <cheater99> they're widely accepted if you suck
03:07:30 <cheater99> alise: what sort of music do you listen to?
03:07:47 <alise> i listen to white noise and the sound of GLOBAL WARMING
03:07:55 <cheater99> huh
03:08:03 <cheater99> you don't listen to CESIUM DECAY????????????????
03:08:16 <alise> well that's a given
03:08:25 <cheater99> ok good.
03:08:28 <cheater99> i was beginning to worry.
03:09:35 <cheater99> do you ever listen to electronic music, alise?
03:10:00 <alise> yes, sometimes i listen to the 50hz tone underlying our electrical system.
03:10:26 <cheater99> ok
03:10:28 <cheater99> what else?
03:10:39 <alise> innocent babies dying
03:10:52 <cheater99> got any more insanely smart remarks, or can we get on with the conversation.
03:11:04 <oerjan> that's not electronic, alise
03:11:21 <alise> cheater99: nope and nope
03:11:26 <cheater99> unless their dying is actuated through midi
03:11:26 <alise> :p
03:11:40 <cheater99> alise: omfg i'm going to KIRRRR U
03:11:52 <Gregor> http://codu.org/zee/vg/zee5.ogg Technically electronic music! :P
03:12:14 <cheater99> alise: give me a useful answer to my question, or DIE
03:12:17 <cheater99> in pain.
03:12:21 <alise> cheater99: no.
03:12:33 <Gregor> alise: The correct response was "NO U"
03:12:34 <cheater99> :(
03:12:44 <cheater99> Gregor: U.
03:12:54 <alise> http://www.gamerevolution.com/manifesto/happy-japanese-kirby-angry-american-kirby-500
03:13:01 <Gregor> Erm, that was a mislink above
03:13:05 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/vg/zee5.ogg Technically electronic music! :P
03:13:18 <cheater99> i don't think i've ever finished kirby for snes
03:13:22 <cheater99> it was too fucking bland
03:13:23 <cheater99> or was it gba
03:13:25 <cheater99> anyways
03:13:35 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/yce2x.jpg --> http://i.imgur.com/PrR02.jpg
03:13:39 <alise> america just ruins everything
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03:14:29 <cheater99> hi
03:14:35 <cheater99> alise: do you listen to electronic music?
03:14:42 <Gregor> alise: From nondescript to "why is this featureless semihuman mess on my box"
03:14:53 <alise> i listen to electronic moo-sic
03:14:57 <alise> the sounds of androidal cows
03:15:05 <cheater99> f u
03:15:08 <alise> Gregor: Hey, I think the first image is pretty.
03:15:15 <cheater99> you're not being very friendly today
03:15:26 <alise> cheater99: but you're being inane
03:15:28 <Gregor> As opposed to all other days.
03:15:28 <pikhq> alise: Do electric cows dream of robots?
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03:16:44 <alise> That game, incidentally, violates the GPL: http://astrange.ithinksw.net/ico/
03:16:55 <cheater99> alise: die already
03:17:11 <alise> cheater99: if you don't like me, maybe stop talking to me
03:17:19 <cheater99> i don't like you right now.
03:17:20 <cheater99> :<
03:17:39 <cheater99> i'll probably like you later.
03:17:43 <cheater99> i'm like that.
03:18:13 <alise> i should sleep soon.
03:22:12 <cheater99> and never wake up.
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03:25:58 <alise> must sleep
03:37:48 <alise> Bye.
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08:40:42 <Ilari> Hah... Found out why pushes were failing sometimes: Socat was involved and it was configured with default half-close timeout of half second(!). So if the remote end didn't respond in half second, socat would close the connection completely, causing failure. :-/
08:42:54 <Ilari> The source end half-closes the connection when its done and then starts to wait for response...
08:44:15 <Ilari> Half a second is quite low timeout...
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09:03:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have a pano coming up later. Need to be anonymised (some faces blurred) first.
09:05:05 <AnMaster> also taken with a friend's camera. So kind of different quality (slightly worse than mine)
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10:29:25 <Phantom_Hoover> aliseiphone, do you have to go to the unit in the summer?
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11:53:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://omploader.org/vNTFzag
11:53:18 <AnMaster> free hand, so kind of wonky
11:53:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Shouldn't the house wrap to the right of the image?
11:54:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not 360°
11:54:29 <AnMaster> so :P
11:55:28 <fizzie> Looks very... bucolic.
11:55:46 * AnMaster googles bucolic
11:56:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh sure. kollonilottsområde
11:56:14 <AnMaster> not sure how to translate
11:57:16 <fizzie> It sounds like it's the same thing as fi:siirtolapuutarha, but I don't know if there's an English word for it at all.
11:58:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can't read that ;P
11:58:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does it mean though?
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12:02:30 <fizzie> It's this sort of gardeny area divided into (rather small) pieces of land you can rent. Usually there's a small cottage on it, where they take us every midsummer even though there's nothing much to do there, and I just end up playing around with the phone all the time, and... I think I got a bit sidetracked there.
12:02:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm yes
12:03:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, though I'm not sure it is rented here
12:03:21 <AnMaster> as in, bought maybe
12:03:23 <AnMaster> not sure
12:03:29 <AnMaster> it's my grandparents who owns it
12:03:48 <AnMaster> or perhaps rent it
12:05:06 <AnMaster> why on earth does *.tif default to opening in evince?
12:05:11 <AnMaster> and where does one change that in gnome
12:05:30 <fizzie> Hmn. Around here I've understood the land is owned by the city, though the cottages I think are built/bought by the tenants.
12:06:16 <fizzie> Oh, and there's some sort of technical endless waiting-list if you want a spot (since all the areas are totally full), but it's completely useless, since no-one ever leaves; they just keep passing the place on to friends and relatives if someone gets fed up.
12:06:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, I know my grandfather (mother's side) build the large house that is partly outside the picture by himself many many years ago. The small brown one is more recent iirc, and he didn't build that
12:07:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm kind of surprised it turned out that well with a mean control point distance of 9.5 and max of 49.8
12:07:33 <AnMaster> I can't find any seam
12:08:09 <fizzie> Foliage is an "easy" target when it comes to seams, enblend can usually make it disappear somewhere inside the mess.
12:08:54 <AnMaster> true but the seams in the preview were all on houses
12:09:57 <fizzie> Here's an aerial photo of one local "siirtolapuutarha" place: http://kartat.eniro.fi/m/pAZrf -- I think it's a non-Flash thing, though it does need all those scripts.
12:10:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, on the other hand, I had to do all control points by hand. The automatic ones all ended up in the white sky and WAY wrong
12:11:04 <AnMaster> non-flash indeed
12:11:06 <fizzie> There's that one cloud-detecting heuristic, I've been wondering if I should try it some time. Of course it wouldn't really help if all the points are there.
12:11:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't work on overcast skys
12:11:49 <AnMaster> and yes on several they were all up there
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12:13:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, for example it ended up hiding that "portal" before, matching up the bushes on either side. And no, the controlpoints only did image pairs
12:13:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, however, it did put all in the sky like in opposite corners
12:14:04 <AnMaster> so yeah it ended up hidden
12:14:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and source material was jpg, couldn't find raw on that camera.
12:15:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and I couldn't get my card reader on my laptop to work. It did accept the XD card from the camera, but it never showed it in dmesg or elsewhere
12:15:24 <AnMaster> wonder why
12:18:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you see the bird btw?
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12:20:19 <fizzie> Probably not, since I can't seem to find a bird now either, even though you said there's one.
12:20:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, in front of that person standing there
12:20:42 <AnMaster> it's a http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgoxe
12:20:45 <fizzie> Oh, there.
12:21:29 <fizzie> That's fi:talitiainen, or more colloquially known as fi:talitintti.
12:25:02 <fizzie> This is again very off-topicy for this channel, but I was recently linked to http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/?sound=0 and can't resist the impulse to pass it on; palette-rotation based animation is almost a lost art nowadays.
12:25:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, did you see the other birds
12:25:23 <AnMaster> I only see them because I know they were there
12:25:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, look on the opposite side to the first bird
12:26:07 <AnMaster> on the ground
12:26:21 <AnMaster> there are some potatos left over from dinner there and some birds next to that
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12:26:44 <AnMaster> two to be exact
12:27:03 <fizzie> Oh, there. Yes, they're rather unobvious.
12:27:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think at least one is either http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A5sparv or http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilfink
12:27:26 * Phantom_Hoover wants to write a series of 7625597484987 books.
12:28:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, is kind of hard to tell the difference between those
12:28:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I think I have some close images on them
12:29:42 <AnMaster> ah yes
12:29:44 * AnMaster uploads
12:30:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, first image http://omploader.org/vNTF0bA
12:30:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, and second http://omploader.org/vNTF0bQ
12:32:43 <fizzie> Your Wikipedia links are fi:varpunen (lit. "small twig") and fi:pikkuvarpunen (lit. "small small twig"), respectively; our bird nomenclature leaves something to be desired.
12:34:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, XD
12:34:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, tree sparrow and house sparrow it seems to be for English
12:35:09 <AnMaster> and um. that very first one next to the person: "great tit"
12:35:15 <AnMaster> innuendo at it's finest
12:36:13 <fizzie> Yes, there's tons of horrible, horrible, even-worse-than-oerjan-level puns on tits.
12:37:20 <AnMaster> indeed
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13:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Has anyone made a language that's easily compilable into a Turing Machine?
13:29:30 <Slereah> Brainfuck is pretty easy to compile in a Turing machine
13:30:02 <Slereah> I made a language that is a Turing machine, which is even easier to compile into a turing machine!
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13:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, preferably high-level and non-obfuscated.
13:32:40 <Slereah> Well, neither are obfuscated, but high level languages aren't common, and I doubt they'd be easy to compile into a turing machine
13:32:52 <Slereah> Depends what you mean by high level
13:33:16 <Slereah> Turing himself defined a set of functions for his machine to make it easier to program in, does it qualify?
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13:34:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, hmm.
13:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose tape-based things are harder to moduarise.
13:34:49 <Phantom_Hoover> s/moduarise/modularise/
13:37:22 <Slereah> He defined functions that can be used to find a character on the tape, go back to a certain marker, copy characters, erase particular symbols, replace elements, stuff like that
13:37:36 <Slereah> Which is extremely easy to compile into a turing machine
13:37:43 <Slereah> I tried to implement that, but got lazy
13:38:14 <Phantom_Hoover> OK.
13:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> By "high-level" I mean abstracted from the details of tape management and the like.
13:39:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Not "make a C to TM compiler".
13:39:31 <Madk> I'm making BrainFuck 5D
13:39:52 <Madk> It's BrainFuck with 5 dimensions to maneuver the memory pointer in
13:40:01 <Madk> it's awesome :D
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13:40:14 <Slereah> iunno$
13:40:31 <Slereah> I mean, making brainfuck in any number of dimension isn't particularly hard
13:40:38 <Madk> so?
13:40:38 <Slereah> It generalizes easily
13:40:41 <Madk> it's still fun
13:40:47 <Slereah> In what way?
13:41:41 <Madk> beats me
13:41:57 <Madk> making the arbitrarily large array work in 5 dimensions, perhpas?
13:42:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, doesn't seem *too* hard.
13:42:15 <Madk> that's turning out to be pretty fun
13:42:25 <Madk> right, but it's still a challenge
13:42:27 <Slereah> You just make an array of array of array of array
13:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> In a language with arbitrarily sized arrays in the first place.
13:42:57 <Madk> the language I'm working in has extremely inefficient arbitrary arrays
13:43:01 <Slereah> If you want to make it challenging, try doing it with a folding function :3
13:43:12 <Madk> I have a bit of a system I've worked out for myself
13:43:21 <Madk> but it's for 1d arrays.
13:43:24 <Madk> not 2d.
13:43:29 <Madk> not 3d.
13:43:32 <Madk> not even 4d.
13:43:42 <Madk> so yeah, I get to rewrite it
13:43:52 <Madk> not *too* hard, really, but not easy, for sure.
13:44:23 <Slereah> Brainfuck is easy to implement, really, whatever the nuances
13:44:33 <Madk> the interesting part isn't so much resizing the array when needed
13:44:46 <Madk> it's handling when the memory pointer moves into negative indexes
13:45:08 <Madk> and finding a good way to check 5 of these at once isn't the most relazing thing in the world
13:45:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, which language?
13:46:07 <Madk> It's called BlitzMax.
13:46:25 <Madk> not a lot of people know about it, but we who use it love it
13:48:05 <Madk> also, it's expensive, so that deters a lot of people, too.
13:48:43 <Slereah> It's not expensive if you PIRATE IT
13:50:15 <Phantom_Hoover> "Based on BASIC". That seems suspect.
13:51:13 <Madk> slereah: It's by an independant developer who listens to the community. Don't steal from the little people ._.
13:51:30 <Madk> phantom_hoover: ehhh.. that's mostly because of its predecessors
13:51:43 <Madk> they were totally basic, but BlitzMax is more OO
13:51:52 <Madk> It's nive because it can do both
13:51:59 <Phantom_Hoover> BASIC and OO?
13:52:24 <Sgeo> C and OO?
13:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, what fantabulous features does it have?
13:52:30 <Sgeo> Oh wait, that didn't turn out too well
13:52:31 <Madk> yeah, it's got a basic-like syntax that makes it fast to code and relatively easy to read, but the core OO concepts are stillt here
13:52:45 <Phantom_Hoover> *coughpython*
13:52:49 <Madk> ._.
13:52:52 <Madk> python sucks
13:52:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Easy to read and OO?
13:53:02 * Sgeo is at war with Madk .
13:53:03 <Madk> That is so.
13:53:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, why?
13:53:21 * Slereah steals Madk
13:53:28 <Madk> AHHHHHhhh-slience-
13:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I rarely use it, but it's a good language to write quick programs that you're writing for the halibut.
13:54:49 <Sgeo> I think I have more Python experience than any other language
13:55:06 <Madk> It's also good because it's totally cross-platform on PCs - windows, max, and linux, and plans to add support for ARM-processor-based systems
13:55:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, but it's commercial!
13:55:28 <Madk> It's worth it.
13:55:37 <Madk> give mark silby a chance
13:55:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it compiled?
13:56:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, OK.
13:56:12 <Madk> ?
13:56:16 <Phantom_Hoover> That makes it tolerable enough.
13:56:19 <Phantom_Hoover> (Google)
13:56:31 <Madk> "compiled"?
13:56:51 <Madk> as in compiler vs interpreter, right?
13:57:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Compiled into a binary that can be run without it installed.
13:57:04 <Madk> yeah
13:57:10 <Madk> that's why I hate python
13:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> It's interpreted?
13:57:27 <Madk> technically it compiles into x86 assembly
13:57:33 <Madk> but yeah, it compiles
13:57:42 <Madk> *at leat on windows, it does
13:57:46 <Phantom_Hoover> s/It's/Python's/
13:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sorry, clarifying: you hate Python because it's interpreted?
13:58:41 <Sgeo> Can't use it as a C++ substitute, I guess
13:58:59 <Madk> phantom_hoover: that is correct.
13:59:17 <Madk> sgeo: it can import C++, C, and Obj-C code, if that matters to you any
13:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, I still think it's a bad idea to write an esolang interpreter in a commercial language.
13:59:29 <Madk> Why's that?
13:59:36 * Sgeo was referring to Python
13:59:49 <Madk> Sgeo: I see.
14:00:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it's being written for programmers, so it seems rather bad form to make it impossible to toy with your interpreter without buying the language.
14:00:34 <Madk> bah
14:00:50 <Madk> they can download the trial if they want to mess with it
14:00:59 <Madk> then hopefully they'll like it enough to buy it :P
14:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Plus, esolang programmers are going to have a high proportion using Linux or BSD or something weirder, so you'll need to supply tonnes of binaries.
14:03:01 <Phantom_Hoover> But I digress.
14:03:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, what are the arbitrary-sized arrays like?
14:04:08 <Madk> phantom_hoover: there are 3 options -
14:04:12 <Madk> linked lists,
14:04:26 <Madk> maps (every object has a key to reference it by),
14:04:31 <Madk> and resizable arrays
14:04:35 <Madk> that is all.
14:05:02 <Madk> the arrays are very fast, the linked lists are a tad slower, and maps are not a wise option for intensive data management
14:05:12 <Madk> but they're still there, regardless
14:06:07 <Sgeo> "Pretend that we wrote this echo server for an elementary school, and the PTA has requested that profanities be censored and unechoable. The parents of PTA also happen to be not very bright and have taken the euphemism 4-letter word too literally. They have requested that we block all 4-letter words."
14:06:23 <Madk> whaaat?
14:06:33 <Sgeo> http://snapframework.com/docs/tutorials/snap-api
14:06:45 <Madk> **** makes absolutely no sense.
14:06:49 <Madk> ****
14:06:51 <Madk> th at
14:06:54 <Madk> o_o
14:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, linked lists are pretty good for tapes.
14:07:37 <Madk> Arrays are better
14:07:42 <Madk> imo, at least
14:07:45 <Madk> faster
14:08:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, true, but what happens when you start appending backwards.
14:08:15 <Madk> things slow down a little
14:08:18 <Madk> :P
14:08:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Meanwhile back and forward are the same for a linked-list tape.
14:10:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, what happens when a program accesses cell 100, flips it around a bit, then sets it back to 0?
14:11:12 <Madk> I don't know what you're trying to describe, but my system works fine :/
14:11:38 <Madk> all my interpreters I've written with arbitrarily size tapes use it
14:11:55 <Madk> anyway
14:12:03 <Madk> I really need to finish my AGBIC entry .-.
14:12:15 <Madk> I've been putting it off for a week now
14:12:38 <Phantom_Hoover> AGBIC?
14:12:49 <Madk> TIGSource A Game by its Cover
14:13:39 <Madk> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13851.0
14:16:57 <Madk> Yeah, I have to sqeeze unit movement and handling and an AI opponent into a week
14:17:06 <Madk> gonna be fun, I say.
14:17:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you doing that in ThingyMAX?
14:19:20 <Madk> aye
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14:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
14:25:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Madk, for the 5D Brainfuck, please make the 4D movement commands 'i' and 'u'.
14:25:57 <Madk> ... why?
14:27:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Culture reference.
14:27:24 <oerjan> still trying to be radically new? in which case you better first consider Infinifuck
14:27:24 <Madk> I thought as much. To what?
14:27:34 <Madk> eh?
14:27:45 <oerjan> (infinite-dimensional brainfuck)
14:27:58 <Madk> oerjan: right _now_ I'm trying to get some work done on my AGBIC entry
14:28:07 <Madk> haven't touched it in a week
14:28:17 <oerjan> AGBIC?
14:28:18 <Madk> stupid esolangs had me distracted :P
14:28:22 <Madk> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13851.0
14:28:34 <Madk> TGISource A Game by its Cover competition
14:30:04 * oerjan assumes without clicking that's a competition where you design only the cover of games
14:30:11 <Madk> you assume wrong.
14:30:43 <Madk> We're making games based off fake cartridge.box art
14:30:50 <Madk> that . is meant to be a /
14:31:06 <Madk> hurrah for typos
14:31:22 <oerjan> ah so the cover is given
14:31:28 <AnMaster> btw anyone OS X here knows if mplayer works on it?
14:31:36 <oerjan> in a mind of speaking
14:32:01 <oerjan> *manner
14:35:16 <AnMaster> <Madk> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13851.0 <-- what console is that cartridge for?
14:35:37 <Madk> it's fake
14:36:07 <AnMaster> Madk, yes but checking other ones they use similar cartridge shapes. So they have a collection of blank ones you can photoshop?
14:36:58 <Madk> http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=13392.0
14:37:12 <Madk> Mine and most are from Famicase 2008-2010
14:37:19 <Madk> http://famicase.com/08/index.html
14:37:23 <AnMaster> Madk, Famicase?
14:38:26 <AnMaster> Madk, wtf is a famicase?
14:38:38 <Madk> anmaster: hold on a second
14:38:44 <oerjan> Madk: oh and paintfuck was all the rage for a short while, although that's only 2d
14:39:10 <oerjan> i think it got reddited and stuff
14:39:16 <AnMaster> suggestion: trefunge extended to higher dimensions
14:39:19 <AnMaster> been done
14:39:26 <AnMaster> 107 is max I heard of
14:39:36 <Madk> anmaster: http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/17046
14:39:37 <AnMaster> or something like that
14:39:51 <AnMaster> Madk, no flash on this thing.
14:39:57 <Madk> o_o
14:40:09 <AnMaster> Madk, on a Linux/UltraSPARC
14:40:17 <AnMaster> Madk, also playing music, would prefer written desc
14:40:22 <oerjan> 107? did they stop because they didn't have room for more than 214 distinct direction characters, or something like that?
14:40:27 <AnMaster> since I'm streaming live music
14:40:42 <Madk> It's where a bunch of japanese people who like retro games come together and make fake cartridge art for fake games
14:40:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, no clue
14:41:04 <AnMaster> Madk, yes but where did they get the plastic cases
14:41:49 <Madk> beats me :
14:42:47 <AnMaster> Madk, oh and even on my x86_64 at home and such I have no flash of course
14:42:53 <AnMaster> I don't trust closed source
14:43:00 <Madk> anmaster: w/e ._.
14:43:07 <AnMaster> sure I'm stuck with my BIOS and various firmware
14:43:33 <AnMaster> and on one computer, nvidia drivers (need 3D, hope the noveau drivers get that soon!)
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14:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Random, probably stupid idea: a CAS written in a proof assistant.
14:50:08 <CakeProphet> :o
14:50:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: Have you checked if your MB happens to be on coreboot's list nowadays? Slim chance, I know, but then you'd get rid of that BIOS.
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14:53:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: And mplayer does run on OS X. (There's also a native simple GUI frontend, which is not so impressive, but the command-line side works like you'd expect.)
14:59:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, what's an open-source BIOS good for?
15:00:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Ignore that, actually, I have a better question.
15:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> According to the NASM manual, GAS can't properly write 16-bit code.
15:00:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Is this true?
15:03:40 <fizzie> There is a .code16 directive, but it might be defective.
15:04:20 <fizzie> So you can write 16-bit code, but I'm not sure about "properliness".
15:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Me neither.
15:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Does GAS actually have support for flat executables?
15:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> s/executables/binaries/
15:11:06 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the Greek in today's IWC means.
15:11:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's just mock greek based on an abba song
15:11:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I got that.
15:11:38 <oerjan> it's actually english with greek characters
15:11:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Got that, too.
15:11:54 <oerjan> what's to wonder, then?
15:11:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I wondered if someone else had done the work for me.
15:12:08 <oerjan> only in my head, alas
15:13:14 <oerjan> http://www.lyricsfreak.com/a/abba/dancing+queen_20002554.html
15:13:16 <fizzie> You can objcopy gas-assembled objects into flat binaries, it doesn't need any more special support than that. Or ld with output-format binary.
15:13:22 <oerjan> it's the chorus, naturally :D
15:13:40 <fizzie> I had that "DOS .com out of Linux gcc" mini-example here a while ago.
15:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "Iu ar the dansing kuen, iung and suet, wnli seph(?)enten.
15:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Dansing kuen, phel the bet phrom the tamboren, w iea.
15:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> iu kan danz, iu kan iaiph. Aphing the taim oph ior laiph. Oooo.
15:16:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Se that gerl, uatch that sen, digin the dansing kuen."
15:16:26 <Phantom_Hoover> BEST. IWC. PUN. EVER.
15:16:38 <oerjan> what pun
15:18:22 <cheater99> pun tang
15:18:25 <cheater99> lol lol lol.
15:18:45 * oerjan doesn't get _that_, either
15:18:53 <cheater99> you don't know what poontang is?
15:18:59 <cheater99> the poonany?
15:19:06 <oerjan> no
15:19:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know what poontang is.
15:19:17 <Phantom_Hoover> You Americans and your weird slang.
15:19:24 <cheater99> i'm not american
15:19:25 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: Have you checked if your MB happens to be on coreboot's list nowadays? Slim chance, I know, but then you'd get rid of that BIOS. <-- yes I checked, even if it was however, I wouldn't want to risk bricking my computer
15:19:41 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, oops, mistook you for CakeProphet.
15:19:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sorry.
15:19:54 <Phantom_Hoover> You Germans and your weird slang, then.
15:20:00 <oerjan> now i know
15:20:03 <cheater99> what's worse is you mistook me for an american
15:20:07 <cheater99> and i'm not german either
15:20:08 <cheater99> wtf
15:20:10 * cheater99 gets insulted
15:20:23 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, AAAA
15:20:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: That'd be one big brick. (Away for now.)
15:20:26 <AnMaster> cheater99, .de
15:20:26 <oerjan> you're neither american nor german, just creepy
15:20:33 <AnMaster> cheater99, so what are you?
15:20:50 <cheater99> i am a sentient cloud of plasma.
15:20:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed. either mini-tower sized or thinkpad sized
15:20:58 <cheater99> i am beyond space or origin.
15:21:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't like the prospect of either
15:21:06 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, a sentient cloud of plasma where?
15:21:25 <cheater99> i could send you an incidence matrix
15:21:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sentient clouds of plasma have to be somewhere, you know.
15:21:32 <cheater99> but i'm not sure your hard drive is 50 petabytes big!!!\
15:22:18 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, what is the average of the position of your particles with respect to Earth?
15:22:39 <oerjan> if you're not german, why are you connected through a german isp
15:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Mycenae was a tourist attraction for the *Romans*.
15:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> That's, like, *old*.
15:23:48 <cheater99> i have to take up a form that makes it convenient and even possible for your species to understand my communication
15:24:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And this form is in Germany?
15:24:09 <cheater99> s/in //
15:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahahaha.
15:24:20 <oerjan> well convenient maybe, not sure about the possible
15:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Then, by definition, you are German.
15:24:36 <Sgeo> y
15:24:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, or a tourist. Or emigrated
15:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, Germany isn't a cloud of plasma.
15:25:13 <oerjan> well not _yet_ anyway
15:25:19 <AnMaster> XD
15:25:19 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, he says he *is* Germany. You cannot get any more German than that.
15:26:01 <AnMaster> ah
15:26:02 <AnMaster> indeed
15:26:07 <AnMaster> missed that sed expression
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15:47:43 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey!
15:48:04 <cpressey> Phantoom_Hover!
15:56:31 <Sgeo> Is it possible that C++ really isn't as bad as I keep thinking it is?
15:57:10 <cpressey> Sgeo: No. Not possible.
15:57:35 <cpressey> C+ isn't as bad as you think, maybe. But add the extra + on the end, and all bets are off.
15:57:47 <Sgeo> What language would one write, say, an IRC client in, or a web browser
15:57:51 <Sgeo> What's XChat written in?
15:58:05 <Sgeo> Are there decent alternatives to C++ for that sort of thing?
15:58:13 <Phantom_Hoover> C.
15:58:51 * Sgeo thought that C wasn't intended for applications
15:59:17 <Slereah> LHC things are written in C D:
15:59:21 <Slereah> C++ actually
16:01:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it isn't.
16:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> But you can still do it.
16:02:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Gnome is written in C, isn't it>
16:02:48 <Sgeo> I take it that most sane people writing applications in C use something like GLib?
16:05:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sane people don't write applications in C.
16:05:56 <Sgeo> What do sane people write applications in?
16:05:57 <Sgeo> C++?
16:06:04 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I don't think so.
16:06:17 <Phantom_Hoover> From this, I conclude that sane people don't write applications.
16:06:31 <Gregor> Yeah, I was gonna say :P
16:10:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, lots of insane people don't write applications.
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16:16:52 <fizzie> Some of Gnome is written in Vala nowadays.
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16:22:38 <Sgeo> Huh.
16:22:42 <Sgeo> Vala just compiles to C
16:23:04 <fizzie> So did C++, at the start.
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16:23:28 * Sgeo wonders if Vala is sane for general application programming
16:23:38 <Sgeo> Or just for GNOMEish stuff
16:23:41 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> What's XChat written in? <-- C
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16:23:45 <AnMaster> it is gnome after all
16:24:09 <AnMaster> well
16:24:11 <AnMaster> gtk+ rather
16:24:14 <AnMaster> not gnome
16:24:23 <Sgeo> What's Chrome written in?
16:24:27 <AnMaster> no clue
16:24:41 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I recommend Haskell, C or erlang
16:25:06 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Some of Gnome is written in Vala nowadays. <-- I never heard of Vala
16:25:24 <fizzie> XChat is more Gtk+ than Gnome; I don't think it uses very many Gnome-desktopy libs at all.
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16:25:56 <fizzie> And anyway, people target Gnome with C++ (gtkmm) and C# (Gtk#) somewhat often nowadays too.
16:25:57 <Sgeo> Vala uses reference counting. I remember hearing something bad about reference counting?
16:26:14 <Sgeo> I want to wean myself off of C#
16:26:20 <fizzie> It's not real garbage collection, that's I guess what's mostly bad in it.
16:26:24 -!- aliseiphone has joined.
16:26:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, I used GTK#. Buggy stuff
16:26:36 <fizzie> Perl does mostly reference-counting too.
16:27:00 <AnMaster> ref counting works well as long as you have no cycles
16:27:03 <fizzie> I've used Gtk# now and then, and it's certainly been improving a lot.
16:27:16 <Sgeo> Wait, Mono is decent?
16:27:24 <AnMaster> if you _do_ have cycles ref counting is messy
16:27:31 <fizzie> The documentation's still very spotty, and the API glue is not quite all there.
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16:27:49 <AnMaster> Sgeo, sure with GTK# if you want GUI it is quite okay if you insist on C#
16:27:51 -!- aliseiphone has joined.
16:27:56 <AnMaster> which is IMO a shitty language
16:28:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Writing GUIs in a non-strict language seems a bit weird...
16:28:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, such as?
16:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Haskell, say.
16:28:31 <AnMaster> oh right
16:28:36 <AnMaster> strict in that sense
16:28:52 <fizzie> Mono's WinForms reimplementation is very non-decent, I hear. Gtk# is probably the best thing for GUI in Monoland.
16:29:06 <fizzie> Oh, and MonoDevelop's a bit buggy.
16:29:21 <AnMaster> I used kate with mono
16:29:24 <AnMaster> works well
16:29:27 <AnMaster> build system was make
16:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, what's wrong with C#? Not that I like it or anything; I just don't know what's wrong with it.
16:29:34 <Sgeo> Vala: base call inside constructor
16:29:35 <Sgeo> <3
16:29:40 <Sgeo> http://live.gnome.org/Vala/QuickIntroForCSharpProgrammers
16:29:51 <fizzie> I've used Nant for building (it's very ant-inspired) and it works pretty well, but the Emacs C# mode is not so good.
16:30:05 <Sgeo> Does SharpDevelop work with Mono?
16:30:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo, saner naming conventions in vala
16:30:26 <AnMaster> more C-like
16:30:48 * AnMaster likes lower_and_underscore
16:31:21 <Sgeo> Ok, Vala is starting to look really nice
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16:31:38 <AnMaster> Sgeo, and afaik sharpdevelop uses lots of windows specific stuff
16:31:46 <AnMaster> like native code
16:32:19 <Sgeo> Are there any reasons not to use Vala?
16:32:25 <AnMaster> I have no idea
16:32:28 <AnMaster> I never heard of it before
16:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, hyphens are The True Way.
16:32:49 <Sgeo> http://live.gnome.org/Vala
16:32:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh yes for languages that allow it I agree
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16:32:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, like lisp variants
16:33:13 <Phantom_Hoover> But *only* Lisp variants, unfortunately...
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16:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, Agda has Haskell-derived syntax and has huge freedom in names, but it's hardly used for much.
16:34:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, erlang could allow it
16:34:09 <AnMaster> but you would need to quote everything
16:34:17 <AnMaster> 'like-this'
16:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> That's just stupid.
16:34:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well function names are any valid atoms
16:34:44 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if it works in GAS or NASM.
16:34:45 <AnMaster> atoms are either [a-z][A-Za-z0-9_]+
16:35:04 <AnMaster> or '.*' (with \' for embedding ' iirc)
16:35:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so you could have 'This is a function with spaces' and the null function ''
16:35:46 <cpressey> Sane people write applications in GAS or NASM.
16:35:53 <AnMaster> cpressey, XD
16:36:13 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, sane people do cat > a.out.
16:36:19 <Phantom_Hoover> No, wait.
16:36:19 <AnMaster> cpressey, btw this work for module names too in erlang
16:36:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, though I could never get the module '' to work
16:36:40 <AnMaster> but ones with spaces worked fine
16:36:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sane people do cat > /dev/sda and write an OS that is their application.
16:36:57 <Sgeo> Oh, fuck you, Vala
16:37:01 <AnMaster> Sgeo, ?
16:37:12 <Sgeo> "Broadly speaking there are two types of data in Vala: reference types and value types."
16:37:19 <AnMaster> Sgeo, yes?
16:37:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo, that's like C
16:37:31 <AnMaster> pointers and data
16:37:48 * Sgeo blinks
16:37:57 * Sgeo was thinking more in terms of C# nightmarishness
16:38:03 <AnMaster> (function pointers being kind of their own weird sort of pointers)
16:38:22 <AnMaster> (in C that is)
16:38:23 <fizzie> No, it's not like C; C doesn't hide the pointeriness. Well, unless you manually hide it inside a typedef, but still.
16:38:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, what's C# like?
16:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, what's wrong with C# in the first place?
16:39:29 <Sgeo> Well, in relation to reference vs. value, it's a weird division
16:39:34 <AnMaster> EMCA. Microsoft
16:39:49 <Sgeo> Some types (types that are derived from System.Value) are value. The rest are reference
16:40:05 <Sgeo> And System.Value and derived seem.. a bit magical
16:40:32 <AnMaster> nice vala has lambdas
16:41:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear god, Facebook has a "Visual Basic sucks" group.
16:41:31 <AnMaster> Sgeo, can you derive your own from System.Value. One that isn't an enum I mean
16:41:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I agree that VB sucks
16:41:55 <fizzie> You can write structs in C#; those are value types.
16:42:01 <AnMaster> ah yes
16:42:05 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I don't know if you can do it directly, but "struct" in C# just means derived from System.Value
16:42:14 <fizzie> And it's System.ValueType, not System.Value.
16:42:17 <Sgeo> Oh
16:42:20 <Sgeo> >.>
16:42:20 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what about a new integer?
16:42:29 <Sgeo> Not sure
16:42:38 <AnMaster> new 256-bit floating point?
16:42:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: "int" is just a type alias for System.Int, which inherits from System.ValueType.
16:43:07 <fizzie> Sorry, System.Int32.
16:43:44 <cpressey> All languages suck.
16:43:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes
16:43:48 <AnMaster> but those are magic afaik
16:44:00 <fizzie> They're not *very* magic, just a bit magic.
16:44:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, still magic
16:44:11 <cpressey> THEY'RE LIKE SUPER-MAGIC
16:44:24 <fizzie> Mostly there's constant-value propagation in the compiler, and literals, that you won't get in your 256-bit float.
16:44:51 -!- lonelyfetus has left (?).
16:45:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm
16:45:20 <fizzie> Oh, and you can only have "const" fields of built-in integers.
16:46:04 <AnMaster> and mine would be reference type I bet
16:46:33 <fizzie> Hmm? Well, if you mean you would make it a reference type, then yes.
16:46:39 <fizzie> But if you want a value type, you can have one.
16:46:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, really?
16:46:46 <AnMaster> how?
16:46:49 <AnMaster> as a struct?
16:46:51 <fizzie> By making a struct, yes.
16:46:55 <AnMaster> hm
16:47:12 <AnMaster> I dislike magic
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16:47:13 <fizzie> Then it's passed by value, and local variables of it contain the value, and so on.
16:47:17 <AnMaster> which languages has no magic?
16:47:27 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..).
16:47:28 <AnMaster> non-trivial that is
16:47:29 <cpressey> AnMaster: Define it
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16:47:40 <AnMaster> cpressey, good question
16:47:44 <AnMaster> I don't know
16:47:46 <fizzie> Go for simplicity, and most of the magic seems to disappear.
16:47:52 <AnMaster> asm?
16:47:55 <AnMaster> perhaps
16:48:02 <AnMaster> ooh I know, hardware
16:48:06 <fizzie> Perhaps, though assembler pseudo-ops are a bit magicky.
16:48:16 <AnMaster> well, true
16:48:25 <fizzie> Things that expand to more than one opcode, I mean.
16:48:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'll take a VLSI design tool :)
16:48:54 <Sgeo> "Vala performs a basic nullability check on the method parameters and return values. "
16:48:55 <cpressey> Yeah, no magic there.
16:48:56 <Sgeo> Ooooooh
16:48:57 <fizzie> There's not much magic in BrainFuck, at least according to my unexplicable definition.
16:49:00 <Sgeo> I like this language
16:49:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Perhaps, though assembler pseudo-ops are a bit magicky. <fizzie> Things that expand to more than one opcode, I mean. <-- so more like macros?
16:49:40 <AnMaster> macros are not very magic at all
16:50:00 <fizzie> Yes, but they're macros that you didn't define anywhere.
16:50:03 <fizzie> So, magical.
16:50:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, try this: echo | gcc -dM -E -
16:50:23 <AnMaster> that should give you some built in defines
16:50:25 <AnMaster> of gcc
16:50:53 <AnMaster> only constant defines, none with parameters afaik
16:50:54 <fizzie> Things like MIPS's 32-bit load immediate, which expands to two instructions, since there are no 32-bit immediates in there.
16:51:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, so they are declared in a built in header
16:51:48 <fizzie> No, because you can't undef them with the macro-definition tools.
16:51:56 <AnMaster> okay that is magic
16:52:04 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: perhaps you could, in some assemblers. I don't think I've ever tried.)
16:52:24 <cpressey> TASM would do short-jump optimization and such. Somewhat magical perhaps.
16:52:46 <fizzie> NASM does that if you ask, but it's so useful I can't be angry at the magick.
16:53:18 <fizzie> Especially since it doesn't do it by default, on the assumption that you'd like to know exactly how wide instructions you get.
16:53:25 <AnMaster> hm
16:53:26 <cpressey> I'd rather ask. I don't know if you could turn it off with TASM, it was sometimes annoying. Actually I think that was one of the motivations for the design for it in NASM
16:53:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, yes.
16:53:40 <cpressey> fizzie: Yes.
16:53:54 <AnMaster> nice
16:54:04 <AnMaster> I tend to prefer gas however
16:54:09 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the primary design goals was to make it possible to tell what opcode would be generated just by looking an a single source line.
16:54:11 <AnMaster> saner asm syntax
16:54:16 <fizzie> "Saner", bah.
16:54:21 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really?
16:54:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, you don't like AT&T syntax?
16:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> %s and $s and the like?
16:54:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, indeed
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16:54:48 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, why?
16:55:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I find intel syntax pretty much unreadable
16:55:07 <cpressey> Percent signs and dollar signs in programming languages just scream sanity to me.
16:55:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's nothing saner in -4(%ebp, %edx, 4) compared to [ebp + 4*edx - 4].
16:55:13 <Sgeo> Vala supports RAII
16:55:17 * Sgeo is squeeing
16:55:38 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, why?
16:55:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, don't know
16:55:48 <Phantom_Hoover> mov eax, 3
16:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> What's unreadable about that?
16:55:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, well neither is sane.
16:56:13 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, because you meant mov 3,%eax really
16:56:17 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, what about AT&T's insane addressing syntax?
16:56:20 <AnMaster> you messed up the order of the parameters
16:56:28 <Sgeo> Everyone should use Vala!
16:56:30 * Sgeo goes insane
16:56:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I admit that is somewhat worse perhaps. But still not very bad.
16:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> mov [rax+4*rbx-8], 3
16:56:52 <Madk> I drew this. http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2206/spaceman.png
16:56:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: Like you should use "42 = b" to put value 42 into variable b?
16:57:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, see you put the target first
16:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> What's so crazy about that?
16:57:10 <Madk> I felt like making something that would remind me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G7h0fegS-w&feature=related :P
16:57:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, no like I use "move x to y" or "Ans→X" on my TI-83+
16:57:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Compared to mov $3, -8(%rax,8,%rbx)?
16:57:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You got that wrong; the scale value is last, not second.
16:58:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is insane because it is incorrect
16:58:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's obvious, you see!
16:58:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed
16:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, see?
16:58:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no
16:58:30 <AnMaster> and I'm not putting up with this trolling any more
16:58:33 <AnMaster> got other stuff to do
16:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Trolling?
16:58:50 <AnMaster> bbl
16:59:14 <fizzie> Really, there's no reason why "target, source" would be any better than "source, target" (it's just a convention); and when it comes to addressing, [rax+4*rbx-8] is obviously better than -8(%rax, %rbx, 4), just because the first one uses the very same arithmetics used in everywhere else.
16:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, thanks.
17:00:13 <cpressey> But which assembler would Buddha use? That's the question we really need to be asking.
17:00:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, besides you forgot %rip. Do that as RIP-relative
17:00:54 <fizzie> I don't think there is a rip-relative form of *that*; there's just rip+displacement.
17:01:00 <AnMaster> ah
17:01:18 <fizzie> I don't know how it's written in gas, either. "disp(%rip)"?
17:02:28 <fizzie> Probably not, since you'd like to point at a particular symbol, not try to calculate the actual displacement yourself.
17:02:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, pretty sure yes
17:03:02 <fizzie> Oh, okay: you write it as "symb at rip(%rip)".
17:03:17 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:03:20 <AnMaster> symbol(%rip)
17:03:21 <AnMaster> afaik
17:03:32 -!- aliseiphone has joined.
17:03:38 <AnMaster> I don't think it is symb at rip(%rip)
17:03:50 <fizzie> No, that just adds symbol to %rip. At least according to some very old mailing list messages.
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17:04:08 <AnMaster> ! @item AT&T: @samp{symbol(%rip)}, Intel: @samp{[symbol + 1234]}
17:04:08 <AnMaster> ! Points to the @code{symbol} in RIP relative way, this is shorter than
17:04:08 <AnMaster> ! the default absolute addressing.
17:04:08 <AnMaster> ! @end table
17:04:09 <fizzie> But this was when the syntax was being debated, so maybe they stabilized to something else.
17:04:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, diff from docs
17:04:23 <AnMaster> found by google
17:04:36 <AnMaster> I think the intel sample is wrong
17:05:05 <cpressey> The thing that strikes me is that gas was never intended to be human-writable.
17:05:12 <fizzie> Okay, so how *do* you write "symbol(%rip)" if you mean what it means when compared to everything else, e.g. "value of symbol + %rip"?
17:05:19 <cpressey> Not originally intended, I mean. Just as a backend for compilers.
17:05:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, no idea
17:05:49 <AnMaster> cpressey, yes and inline asm is how I use it most often
17:06:08 <cpressey> Inline assembly -- now THAT is magic ;)
17:06:18 <AnMaster> cpressey, agreed
17:06:36 <fizzie> Oh, binutils does MMIX already? Heh.
17:07:00 <AnMaster> cpressey, the only non-inline asm I written was an implementation of crt0.o
17:07:14 <AnMaster> and that was h8300 asm
17:07:20 <AnMaster> oh wait
17:07:26 <AnMaster> I coded in PIC12F* asm too
17:07:39 <AnMaster> don't remember any about that syntax
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17:10:19 <fizzie> Oh, another AT&T dislike: if you want to say "mov eax, [foo+4*eax]" (addressing an array with 4-byte elements, say) you need to do "movl foo(,%eax,4), %eax" -- and that empty field in "(,x)" looks really silly.
17:10:26 <fizzie> Though it's not like you couldn't use Intel syntax with Gas.
17:11:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, why would you want to use that messy intel syntax!?
17:11:13 <fizzie> Because it's better?
17:11:23 <AnMaster> no
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17:12:26 <fizzie> Oh, and *yet* another AT&T dislike: if you want a simple "mov eax, [foo]", you have to write it as "movl foo(,1), %eax" -- and that (,1) is even sillier. Quoth the manual: "Note that base and index are both missing, but there is only one `,'. This is a syntactic exception." And we all know exceptions are for bad.
17:12:44 <Sgeo> " and that given a class and a subclass, a generic refined by the subclass can be used as a generic refined by the class."
17:12:46 <Sgeo> BAD VALA
17:12:57 <Sgeo> I don't want that unless I say I want that!
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17:13:49 <pikhq> Intel syntax is very clean and readable. AT&T syntax is AGONY ITSELF
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17:14:34 <cpressey> Sgeo: IIRC Java does that too, and I'm not sure why, but ISTR some theoretical problem with not doing it ("it's hard")
17:15:11 <Sgeo> Wait, so covariance is the default in Java?
17:15:23 <Sgeo> Or am I misunderstanding covariance or what they're saying here?
17:15:26 <cpressey> Sgeo: I *think* so but I might be hallucinating.
17:15:34 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, why do you think Intel syntax is messy, though?
17:15:54 <fizzie> Switching gears: why is it that http://esolangs.org/wiki/ redirects visibly to http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page while starting from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page you can use the Wiki just well with that arguably nicer URL?
17:16:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, mostly parameter order and stuff like 80h
17:16:30 <AnMaster> h for hex?
17:16:33 <AnMaster> wtf is that joke
17:16:52 <cpressey> Also re assemblers, the great majority of the paucity and goriness of their syntaxes comes from the fact that the first ones had to be hand-coded in machine language.
17:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> You can write 0x80 if you want.
17:16:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, contact graue?
17:19:52 <cpressey> bye
17:19:54 -!- cpressey has left (?).
17:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, what's wrong with 80h in the first place?
17:20:31 <fizzie> FWIW, I mostly write 0x80 in NASM, except that the argument for "int" I tend to accidentally write "XXh", for hysterical raisins.
17:21:42 <fizzie> Every environment seems to have its own way of denoting numbers, anyway. Z80 assemblers (and many others like that) use $f00 as a hex prefix, and #01101 for binary-number prefix.
17:22:38 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, UGLY
17:22:53 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, if you don't like it, don't use it.
17:22:55 <fizzie> I'd guess gas likes "0xf00" primarily due to it's Unix, and therefore C, and therefore 0x-prefix background.
17:23:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed
17:24:07 <fizzie> Most of them understand multiple forms now. Though I'm not sure if gas in intel-syntax mode accepts XXh. Maybe it does.
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17:26:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and re gas + 16-bit: there's a rather funky ".code16gcc" directive, which can take a gcc-generated .s file (GCC itself being unable to generate 16-bit x86) and convert the contents so that you can stick that code into a 16-bit segment and it will run properly. (It's done by adding opcode and operand prefixes as necessary, so it still won't run on a pre-386, but at least it runs in a 16-bit segment.)
17:27:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, but 16-bit is mostly useless except for boot loader code
17:28:03 <AnMaster> and early early kernel
17:28:19 <AnMaster> I expect going into 32-bit or 64-bit to be the first thing a kernel does
17:28:32 <fizzie> It's close to being the first thing, though it moves stuff around first.
17:29:02 <AnMaster> okay that could be
17:29:08 <AnMaster> maybe prints "loading..." or such too
17:29:26 <fizzie> On an EFI system, it's in 32-bit mode all the time, though.
17:29:37 <AnMaster> well yes
17:29:49 <Phantom_Hoover> It still annoys me that even x86-64 processors need to start in 16-bit real mode.
17:29:55 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, agreed
17:31:13 <fizzie> Oh, and a coreboot system runs in 32-bit mode very early too. :p
17:31:37 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Here's that DOS .com thing I briefly mentioned; it does .code16gcc: http://pastebin.com/eChGDKDy
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17:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, how does the processor control the hard drive once the BIOS is gone??
17:33:58 <Phantom_Hoover> s/??/?
17:34:04 -!- augur has joined.
17:34:19 <fizzie> Gone where?
17:34:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It talks directly to the IDE controller.
17:34:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Using in and out?
17:34:42 <pikhq> Also, the BIOS doesn't "go" anywhere.
17:34:54 <pikhq> It ceases to be functional when you're in 32-bit mode.
17:37:07 <Phantom_Hoover> That is what I meant by "gone".
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17:43:10 <Ilari> What the heck about that .code16gcc example? It appears to use data segment 0 with Axxxx addresses in rmode?
17:43:29 <fizzie> Ilari: If you were here when I talked about it, I did mention it shouldn't work, but works in dosbox.
17:43:38 <fizzie> I suspect dosbox isn't very careful about segment limits.
17:44:16 <fizzie> You can fix it pretty easily by initializing ds to 0xa000 up there and using offsets in [0, 320*200) if you like.
17:53:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I just lost the game.
17:54:20 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I promise never to do that again.
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17:59:37 * Sgeo wonders if Vala would make a good first language.
18:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> What makes a good first language, though?
18:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you want everything abstracted away, so it's easy, or do you want to start low and work up?
18:02:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, GObject is C, isn't it?
18:02:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Madness!
18:03:45 <fizzie> In other news, I've been drafting a little language. Now, it's very work-in-progress, and might not ever actually be anything more, but I put some preliminary specs -- boring -- and three example snippets (incl. the ubiquitous cat) -- hopefully a tiny bit less boring -- into my user page at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Fizzie
18:04:12 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Vala is GObject without the PAIN and AGONY of GObject.
18:04:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't experienced the pain of GObject.
18:04:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I avoid GUIs like the plague.
18:04:47 <fizzie> Just the MADNESS of it?
18:04:57 <fizzie> GObject and Glib are not gui-specific.
18:04:59 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GObject_example.png
18:05:25 <fizzie> I've written some non-GUI C that does glib; it's a reasonably sensible way of getting containers and such in.
18:05:34 <fizzie> For some values of "reasonable", anyway.
18:05:39 <pikhq> Unfortunately, Glib is a painful API.
18:05:43 <fizzie> (Possibly rather small ones.)
18:05:54 <pikhq> Primarily because it's freaking *object-oriented C*.
18:05:58 <fizzie> Well, it's certainly not *pleasant*.
18:15:14 <Gregor-P> Hence Vala
18:15:53 <Gregor-P> And/or an awesomely complex set of terrifying M4 macros.
18:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> M4!
18:16:25 <pikhq> Vala is impressive in that it makes me not vomit at the thought of using GTK in a program.
18:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> So you use KDE?
18:16:59 <pikhq> No.
18:21:22 <Phantom_Hoover> XFCE?
18:21:25 <fizzie> So you use... pure XCB?! (Xlib's so last millennium.)
18:22:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No.
18:22:15 <pikhq> fizzie: No.
18:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> CDE?
18:22:56 <pikhq> No.
18:23:11 <Phantom_Hoover> LXDE
18:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> ?
18:23:50 <Gregor-P> XPDM?
18:24:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No.
18:24:07 <pikhq> Gregor-P: No.
18:24:20 <fizzie> I'm having hard time thinking up more ridiculous suggestions. Win16?
18:24:25 <Gregor-P> (<3 XFCE, btw)
18:24:37 <Phantom_Hoover> EDE, toile, Mezzo, ROX, UDE?
18:25:09 <pikhq> No, no, no, no, no, and (on Win16) HEEELLL NAW
18:25:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Raw Enlightenment, xmonad, for the love of god, surely not TWM?
18:25:22 <pikhq> No, no, no.
18:25:37 * Phantom_Hoover reviews
18:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, is it GNOME?
18:25:49 <fizzie> Isn't XFCE basically Gtk, anyway? As far as GUI toolkits go, at least.
18:25:55 <pikhq> NOOOO...
18:26:18 <pikhq> fizzie: It uses Gtk, but it's written by people who aren't pro-bloat anti-feature maniacs.
18:26:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, you don't bother with one of those decadent, capitalist GUI things.
18:26:32 <pikhq> (yes, pro-bloat anti-feature)
18:26:34 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No.
18:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> A clue, then?
18:27:13 <fizzie> XUL?-)
18:27:48 <fizzie> (And what does the winner get?)
18:27:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Box
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18:27:57 <pikhq> fizzie: No.
18:28:02 <pikhq> fizzie: Also, AGONY ITSELF
18:28:08 <pikhq> MWAHAHAHAH
18:28:27 <Phantom_Hoover> FluxBox?
18:28:32 <fizzie> I know only the Flux, Open and Black boxes.
18:29:31 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, one of fizzie's?
18:30:24 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Fluxbox!
18:30:31 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You win AGONY!
18:30:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Wooh..wait...
18:30:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Congratulations on your new-won AGONY.
18:32:31 <Gregor-P> AgonyWM
18:32:47 <Gregor-P> Also known as CDE
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18:36:47 <Gregor-P> JIX
18:36:54 <Gregor-P> OMG
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18:59:02 <AnMaster> bbl
19:00:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: A rather action-filled one this time: "About NetHack: ! it's done with his intestines hanging out in steaming loops. instead he roared laughter, hands on a scare monster scroll..."
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19:32:08 <jix> Gregor-P: yeah?
19:32:41 <cpressey> hi jix
19:32:44 <cpressey> been a while...
19:32:46 <pikhq> aliseiphone: How farest thou?
19:32:56 <Gregor-P> jix: Nothing, you just haven't been in #esoteric in forever :P
19:33:42 <jix> i haven't?
19:35:34 <jix> that's a bug then
19:41:42 <Gregor-P> I refer of course to an imperial forever, which is finite, not a metric forever.
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19:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-P, what type of infinity is metric forever?
19:43:17 <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : it is defined as infinity seconds.
19:43:29 <Slereah> While the imperial forever is an infinity of forthnights
19:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Unsigned, positive or negative infinity?
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19:44:34 <Slereah> positive.
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20:28:38 <Ilari> Hmm... How to create wikipages? Just navigate to nonexistent page and tell it to create it?
20:29:01 <Slereah> Yep
20:29:18 <Slereah> Type in the name, there will be a "create that page" link
20:29:21 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:29:23 <Slereah> or just click on edit
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20:36:24 <fizzie> If you want, you can also just create a link to a nonexistent page, then follow the redlink there, but that way there'll be a broken link visible for a while, which is perhaps ugly.
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21:09:00 <zzo38> Why would it have Fumito Ueda's credit card numbers on it or something?
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21:24:28 <cpressey> CakeProphet: I am quite sure that I do not code better when drinking.
21:27:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh?
21:27:39 <Phantom_Hoover> That would indeed seem strange.
21:28:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, he's only made one post today.
21:28:43 <Phantom_Hoover> And that was just ":o".
21:29:13 <cpressey> Yeah, he raised the question last week sometime.
21:29:40 <Phantom_Hoover> So have you only just gotten around to drinking and trying to code?
21:30:13 <cpressey> Well, yes, on the weekend. I mean, I'm sure I have before, but that was years ago, so I wanted some recent data.
21:30:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Hardly rigorous.
21:33:02 <cpressey> Fitting, since this is hardly science.
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21:52:29 <cpressey> Now, as for whether the activity of coding is more *interesting* while under the influence... well what isn't.
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22:17:37 <CakeProphet> cpressey: hahaha. yeah. I can't say I've ever tried.
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22:47:41 <Sgeo> MonoDevelop for Windows apparently doesn't have Vala support :/
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22:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oerj...ah, I can't be bothered.
22:49:30 <oerjan> apathetics anonymous
22:49:37 <fizzie> Why would you even use MonoDevelop -- a not-so-hot IDE -- for something so non-Mono as Vala?
22:50:10 <Sgeo> What's wrong with MonoDevelop?
22:50:19 <Sgeo> Also, other Vala IDEs... eh
22:50:50 <Sgeo> ValaIDE has no autocompletion or similar, and the other options are text editor stuff, or a barely supported Eclipse thingy
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22:51:28 <fizzie> The bugs, for one thing. The Stetic gets often in a "needs a MonoDevelop restart" confused state where it e.g. can't show properties of anything. Okay, so Stetic problems aren't perhaps an issue for Valailing.
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22:53:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Ugh IDEs.
22:53:31 <fizzie> The autocompletion also seems very annoying to me. If I write "else" after an "if { ... }" block, it has an auto-complete "Template for 'else'" visible, and then if I try to press enter (so that I'd get "else\n", in preparation for a { on the next line) the enter just dismisses the autocomplete and leaves the cursor on the wrong line.
22:54:34 <fizzie> And sometimes (if it hasn't grok'd the preceding code, or things aren't built, or something) it autocompletes something completely ridiculous; like I have a local variable called "a", and I write "a" and space, and it auto-autocompletes in "AddNotification".
22:55:02 <Sgeo> I meant for things like members of .. oh, you're referring to MonoDevelop's autocomplete in particular?
22:55:08 <fizzie> Yes.
22:55:20 <Sgeo> VS sometimes does that if I'm doing something wrong syntactically
22:55:28 <Sgeo> Like forgetting to give a member a name
22:56:04 <fizzie> Possibly I should just configure the autocomplete to activate only when I specifically ask for it, but then I'd probably never remember to use it.
22:56:20 <fizzie> Also the "GNU/Emacs" keybinding scheme leaves a lot to be desired. :p
22:56:52 <fizzie> (I'd really rather just stay in Emacs, but csharp-mode.el is completely refusing to work with Ubuntu's emacs-snapshot + whatever extra cruft I have collected myself.)
22:57:06 <cpressey> I just bind "pound-violently-on-keyboard" to "do-what-I-mean"
22:57:32 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
22:57:40 <fizzie> Oh, oh, and MonoDevelop's version control plugin only supports Subversion, not Git or anything. (Actually, maybe I should get working on that; they do mention Git support as a major TODO item there.)
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22:58:30 <fizzie> Last time I used Eclipse (a while ago) I seem to recall I was equally annoyed at the autocomplete, so my experiences won't perhaps really translate over.
22:59:08 <aliseiphone> Even fizzie is coding C# now?
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22:59:49 <fizzie> aliseiphone: Not *seriously*, just, you know, experimenting with things. Many young people do that, there's nothing wrong with me! Stop judging me! You don't understand!
23:00:03 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Blurring is reversible. Delete.
23:00:13 <aliseiphone> fizzie: *snorts coke*
23:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do we hate C#?
23:00:51 <pikhq> Eeeew.
23:00:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I want to know!
23:01:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I know nothing about it!
23:01:09 <cpressey> I don't hate C#
23:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, not interested!
23:01:24 <oerjan> aliseiphone: hey carbonated beverages in your nose _hurts_
23:01:25 <cpressey> Deja vu
23:01:31 <pikhq> cpressey: Don't you like C++, though?
23:01:34 <oerjan> i would not recommend it
23:01:53 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: fizzie: those plots of land are "allotments".
23:02:11 <cpressey> pikhq: "like" is not the verb I'd choose
23:02:20 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Eeeew C# or coke? :P
23:02:30 <aliseiphone> oerjan: I know
23:02:42 <pikhq> aliseiphone: C#
23:02:46 <aliseiphone> oerjan: once I had cola laughing out my nose
23:02:55 <aliseiphone> oerjan: it BUURNS
23:03:13 <oerjan> aliseiphone: so that's how you became a traumatized child. got it.
23:03:44 <aliseiphone> pikhq: "Mom... Dad... I use C#. (and heroin)" "C#?! Oh my fucking god! *sobs*"
23:03:58 <aliseiphone> oerjan: no that's just how I got my superpowers
23:04:05 <oerjan> ah.
23:04:17 <aliseiphone> my brother was mauled by bears in a cave when I was 3
23:04:22 <aliseiphone> there's the trauma
23:04:28 <oerjan> figures.
23:05:07 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, what are your thoughts on Vala?
23:05:12 <Gregor-P> (Bears in the gay sense. And his brother was 19. And a willing participant)
23:05:16 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Blurring is reversible. Delete.
23:05:18 <AnMaster> context?
23:05:52 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
23:07:15 <AnMaster> night →
23:07:34 <Sgeo> Night AnMaster
23:09:15 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Faces.
23:09:40 <oerjan> with a good medic.
23:09:49 <aliseiphone> Gregor-P: Just tell yourself that while you masturbate to my poor brother.
23:10:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:10:16 <Gregor-P> Yup, I do.
23:10:20 <aliseiphone> If Madk ever, ever calls piracy "stealing" again —
23:10:28 <aliseiphone> The bears will maul again.
23:10:44 <Gregor-P> Sweet. Post pics.
23:10:51 <ais523> I'm trying to imagine a situation in which piracy actually is theft
23:11:02 <ais523> I don't see any reason why the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, although it's hard to contrive a situation
23:11:04 <aliseiphone> I'd also say "or advocates commercial software" but, you know, start gently.
23:11:09 <pikhq> ais523: When you replace all instances of "copy" with "move".
23:11:13 <pikhq> Somehow.
23:11:16 <Gregor-P> ais523: How about actual piracy :P
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23:11:22 <aliseiphone> Damn. I'm still a zealot, just one of a different ideology.
23:11:26 <aliseiphone> Oh well!
23:11:27 <ais523> copyright infringement is nonetheless illegal, but for different reasons for theft being illegal
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23:11:44 <ais523> Gregor-P: I thought of that already
23:11:49 <aliseiphone> ais523: You say it like things have to be illegal for a reason.
23:11:49 <ais523> but I mean, in the colloquial sense
23:11:56 <aliseiphone> Which isn't true.
23:12:02 <ais523> aliseiphone: generally, there has to be at least half a reason
23:12:13 <ais523> MPs or Congressmen don't stay brainwashed /all/ the time
23:12:22 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but the reason can easily be that Congressmen are idiots.
23:12:27 <aliseiphone> ais523: One eighth of a reason. Let's say.
23:12:33 <ais523> hmm, I'll buy that
23:12:35 <pikhq> See, for instance, how programming is illegal.
23:12:46 <ais523> pikhq: are you referring to software patents?
23:12:51 <pikhq> Yes.
23:12:53 <aliseiphone> Yes.
23:13:11 <aliseiphone> Being a mindreader is such fun.
23:13:28 <ais523> such a pity that In re Proudler isn't precedent-setting
23:13:33 * Sgeo pokes aliseiphone
23:13:40 <fizzie> There might also be someone's reason; like "don't want to lose our money-making business so let's lobby all this stuff is criminal".
23:13:44 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Vala. —
23:13:58 <cpressey> Such a pity that it's only illegal, and not criminal, to program.
23:14:06 <cpressey> Should be a felony or something. Much more interesting.
23:14:24 <ais523> cpressey: I imagine most people don't even realise there's a difference between those two words
23:14:32 <pikhq> It has, coincidentally, *ceased* to be a crime to watch DVDs on Linux.
23:14:39 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, yes, if you've played with it, any thoughts?
23:14:52 <ais523> pikhq: it never was in the first place, but there's only just been precedent about it
23:15:14 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: It's C#-ish — not so good; but it is mostly tasteful. Makes GObject sane, wow. Nothing astonishing. But good, good. Please, look at Genie; an alternative "syntax/language" for Vala like Python without the crap.
23:15:17 <ais523> are you talking about the recent ruling that anti-circumvention measures that only prevent use and not copying aren't protected by the DMCA?
23:15:18 <pikhq> ais523: The law made circumvention devices entirely illegal.
23:15:40 <ais523> pikhq: well, the law was about anti-copying circumvention devices
23:15:42 <aliseiphone> I recommend Vala or Genie to anyone who wants to make a GTK+ program, or whatever.
23:15:44 <ais523> and DeCSS doesn't stop copying at all
23:16:07 <ais523> you can just to a byte-for-byte, or even pit-for-pit, copy and it'll work fine
23:16:10 <pikhq> The one that said that circumvention of DRM that is not being used to copy is not protected by the DMCA.
23:16:18 <Sgeo> Any good Vala IDEs for Windows? ValaIDE doesn't really seem to be all that nice, and MonoDevelop on Windows supposedly doesn't support Vala
23:16:18 <ais523> yep
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23:16:24 <pikhq> There's been *two* landmark cases regarding that law today.
23:16:25 <aliseiphone> ais523: pit?
23:16:41 <ais523> aliseiphone: the individual unit of data-carrying on CDs and DVDs
23:16:42 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Emacs. Don't complain. Just use it.
23:16:47 <fizzie> Wasn't it recently that they (in the states) almost made not abiding to website's terms of service a felony (through the computer fraud and abuse and whatever "hacking" laws)? I seem to have read some EFF victory-of-sanity in a higher court on this.
23:16:51 <aliseiphone> Yeah it sucks. So does everything.
23:16:54 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, does it have an Intellisense-like feature?
23:16:57 <ais523> it's not quite the same as bits, because you can't have two 1s in a row the way they work physically
23:16:57 <pikhq> fizzie: Yes.
23:17:05 <ais523> so there's a small level of encoding to translate sets of pits into bytes
23:17:30 <Sgeo> aliseiphone doesn't know everything?
23:17:30 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Probably somewhere. But don't use it! GTK and GLib names are quite short. Make yours too.
23:17:37 <pikhq> US legislators seem to feel that computers are magic devices with completely and utterly different standards of sanity.
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23:17:55 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: No! I was just asking ais523 for the benefit of everyone else.
23:17:57 <aliseiphone> >_>
23:18:00 <ais523> (also, I think you have to have a 1 every now and then in order to stop the laser getting confused as to where on the disk it was)
23:18:04 <Sgeo> I think, besides non-workiness, the lack of Intellisense-like thing is my only complaint about ValaIDE
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23:18:23 <Sgeo> And it's ugly, but that doesn't count as a complaint.
23:18:31 <ais523> Sgeo: hey, aliseiphone isn't a qualified electronic engineer
23:18:57 <Gregor-W> http://codu.org/tmp/teddynom.gif This is my response.
23:18:57 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Stop becoming dependent on Intellisense. It's a code smell; a symptom.
23:19:13 <ais523> it's OK for me to know something he/she doesn't if it's my (ex-)job to know
23:19:13 <aliseiphone> Windows libraries make it necessary with verbosity.
23:19:21 <aliseiphone> GLib/GTK don't!
23:19:23 <ais523> aliseiphone: Intellisense is a symptom of the language, not the IDE
23:19:27 <ais523> well, the libraries
23:19:33 <aliseiphone> ais523: I know.
23:19:38 <aliseiphone> That's what I said.
23:19:40 <ais523> I wouldn't like to program in Java without an intellisense equivalent
23:19:46 <ais523> aliseiphone: IRC messages crossing
23:19:46 <Sgeo> It's convenient not having to look stuff up
23:19:50 <pikhq> I wouldn't like to program in Java.
23:19:54 <aliseiphone> I'm saying Vala doesn't need it.
23:20:00 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: ??
23:20:10 <ais523> for Perl, I make do with M-x perldoc
23:20:14 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: You use methods based on name?
23:20:19 <ais523> some langs, like Underload, I can do without documentation at all
23:20:27 <aliseiphone> Without checking how they work fully?
23:20:34 <aliseiphone> Wow...
23:20:39 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, what if I fully know how it works, but the name escapes me offhand
23:20:55 <Sgeo> >.>
23:21:05 <ais523> aliseiphone: I generally use NetBeans autocomplete to get a list of plausible names, and then load the javadoc
23:21:08 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Then quickly google it. You gotta anyway to research algorithms and stuff.
23:21:30 <ais523> but actually, its main use is that method names are /so long/
23:21:36 <ais523> the ability to "tab-complete" them is massively useful
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23:21:39 <cpressey> Yeah, google is (sad or no) the only means I use to find out the method or function I want.
23:21:56 <ais523> I do most of my programming when I'm not online
23:21:58 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: In fact since glib gtk classes tend to be quite small and docs are good
23:21:58 <Gregor-W> Yeah, in Microsoftland, they like to give obscenely long names to everything. Intellisense just saves you hours of typing.
23:22:05 <ais523> but I have a (legal, I even read the license!) offline copy of the Java documentation
23:22:06 <aliseiphone> just google the class name
23:22:16 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, I'm thinking about making a .vapi for the AW SDK
23:22:51 <ais523> aliseiphone: heh, even when I'm online I don't use a search engine, but rather the list of all classes in the API documentation
23:22:52 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Anything but that...!
23:22:58 <ais523> I wonder what's up with my huge distrust of search engines
23:23:18 <ais523> perhaps it's knowing how they work
23:23:22 <aliseiphone> ais523: google is like ctrl+f except it knows what site I want
23:23:25 <aliseiphone> it's great!
23:23:28 <Warrigal> RʀRʀR!
23:23:33 <fizzie> For Mono-stuff I've been using monodoc-browser for docs; it's funny because it has "edit" buttons on every page, plus a "upload contributions" tool to send out your edits.
23:23:38 <aliseiphone> near useless for actually searching though
23:23:55 <fizzie> Almost like a wiki, except not at all!
23:23:59 <ais523> offline wiki
23:24:12 <ais523> IIRC the published-book subset of Wikipedia comes with a postcard you can use to mail in edits
23:24:16 <ais523> I wonder if anyone uses it
23:24:24 <aliseiphone> no
23:24:25 <Gregor-W> Have I mentioned recently that Hackiki is the greatest idea in wiki software since the invention of the wiki itself?
23:24:31 <Gregor-W> I feel I have been negligent in mentioning this fact.
23:24:40 <fizzie> It would be if those contributions would get automatically accepted. I think there's some sort of review thing.
23:24:42 <aliseiphone> Gregor-W: Gay bear wikis. Duuude
23:24:55 <aliseiphone> Did I just totally outclass your idea or WHAT
23:25:07 <aliseiphone> (WHAT is not an option)
23:25:10 <Gregor-W> Uhhhh, you just described a wiki's content, not its software :P
23:25:15 <aliseiphone> No.
23:25:19 <aliseiphone> I didn't.
23:25:19 * cpressey sads
23:25:22 <Gregor-W> You could easily make a gay bear wiki with Hackiki :P
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23:25:26 <aliseiphone> That's the amazing thing.
23:25:35 <aliseiphone> I'm talking about the software.
23:25:47 <aliseiphone> cpressey: :(
23:26:03 <Gregor-W> I disrespectfully disagree :P
23:28:34 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, should I make a Lua thing for the AW SDK, or a .vapi for the AW SDK?
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23:31:55 <relet> who was it mentioning nomic the other day? was it here?
23:32:00 <ais523> quite possibly
23:32:04 <ais523> there are several nomic players here
23:32:14 <ais523> and so conversation can drift to that topic from time to time
23:32:23 <Sgeo> Nomic was mentioned in #nethack recently
23:32:24 <ais523> the correct channel for nomic discussion is ##nomic, although it's often inactive
23:32:29 <ais523> Sgeo: that was me by mistake
23:32:37 <ais523> got the wrong channel with a name starting with n
23:32:39 <Sgeo> Yes, but it was still mentioned =P
23:32:43 <relet> ah. I'll have to wander over there some time.
23:32:43 <ais523> when trying to explain how to get the op list for a channel
23:32:53 * Sgeo remembers
23:32:55 <ais523> I'm normally willing to chat there even when nobody else is
23:33:07 <relet> someone mentioned implementing nomic in his esolang-in-development
23:37:32 <relet> I was wondering if I could get some of the subset of nomic players that also love the code in a game of programmer's nomic
23:37:45 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:37:47 <relet> or some ideas on http://localhost:8080/cgi/fossil/index
23:38:10 <pikhq> I don't happen to be running a server on localhost.
23:38:16 <relet> argh
23:38:35 <relet> http://nomjyc.ath.cx:8080/cgi/fossil/index
23:38:49 <relet> sorry about that.
23:41:51 <oerjan> Ilari: ok this may be a mean thing to mention, but you used exactly _one_ indefinite article in your wiki article, and you got the a/an distinction wrong XD
23:42:10 * oerjan is adding more as he speaks
23:42:20 -!- ivancastillo75 has joined.
23:43:00 <ivancastillo75> Escriba el texto aqu....So how many real initiates are on line?
23:43:12 <cpressey> Oooh.
23:43:14 <cpressey> Um, three.
23:43:33 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:43:35 <ivancastillo75> Whats the topic at this point?
23:43:39 <Sgeo> Actually, I don't think the AW SDK works with GCC on Windows
23:43:43 <ais523> esoteric programming languages!
23:43:44 <ais523> it always is
23:43:45 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: Haha
23:43:53 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: Sacrifice a goat
23:43:59 <cpressey> ais523: Hush you!
23:44:00 <ais523> aliseiphone: you're not helping...
23:44:05 <aliseiphone> Jeez. The idiots we get!
23:44:08 <ais523> fungot: you know the topic...
23:44:08 <fungot> ais523: thanks for the log comment was just so ridiculous that they even continue making the series, and i
23:44:09 <Sgeo> print("ivancastillo75");
23:44:24 <Sgeo> Hm
23:44:39 <cpressey> ivancastillo75: Contemplate the significance of sleeping Ariadne!
23:44:50 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: your belief system is mindless dogma like the rest. this is not the true path to enlightenment... and we are not the ones you are searching for.
23:44:51 <Sgeo> Chatter ivan = new Chatter.wrong_esoteric("ivancastillo75");
23:45:21 <ivancastillo75> Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ?
23:45:30 <ais523> (and no, we don't know where the right one is. But if anyone finds out, let us know, so we can redirect other people who come here by mistake)
23:45:37 <oerjan> ivancastillo75: that's depressingly accurate
23:45:49 <cpressey> oerjan: It's surprisingly hard work, considering it's nothing.
23:45:54 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: Whereas mindless Latin
23:45:55 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
23:46:01 <ais523> `addquote <ivancastillo75> Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ?
23:46:02 <aliseiphone> Idiotic beliefs —
23:46:04 <ais523> so true
23:46:08 <aliseiphone> Those are "something"?
23:46:10 <HackEgo> 198|<ivancastillo75> Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ?
23:46:26 <cpressey> ais523: Clearly the "right one" would be well hidden. In plain view, no less.
23:46:35 <aliseiphone> I hate occultists. They're religious people who can't even admit it ...
23:46:37 <Sgeo> What we supposedly talk about is weird languages that no sane person wants to know.
23:46:45 <oerjan> aliseiphone: would you like to be banned?
23:46:56 <ais523> Sgeo: that actually isn't that far off the other meaning of "esoteric"
23:47:00 <aliseiphone> oerjan: I said nothing!
23:47:21 <aliseiphone> oerjan: but i'm fairly sure that wouldn't last.
23:47:22 <ivancastillo75> So is any one the least bit interested in finding the path?
23:47:33 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: Yes.
23:47:35 <cpressey> ivancastillo75: I only ask that you consider the value of exploring strange programming languages as a path.
23:47:39 <Sgeo> If you really want a path, make your own.
23:47:46 <aliseiphone> ...turns out you might already be on it.
23:47:52 <aliseiphone> Stop looking.
23:48:12 <ivancastillo75> I really mean no harm in any way shape or form to anyone in this chat room.
23:48:16 * Sgeo remembers when a cultist of some anti-color cult came into AW
23:48:24 <oerjan> aliseiphone: you're insulting someone, and you started it
23:48:26 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: And us none to you.
23:48:34 <Sgeo> ivancastillo75, we know, but this isn't a discussion about supernatural topics
23:48:36 <aliseiphone> oerjan: I insulted nobody.
23:48:42 <Sgeo> Idea: Supernatlang
23:48:46 <Sgeo> </cruddy-name>
23:49:04 <ais523> Sgeo: grr, now this channel is no longer well-formed XML!
23:49:07 <aliseiphone> The cruddiest of all names.
23:49:16 <ais523> someone might have put the closing tags in someday... </ais523></aliseiphone></ais523>
23:49:35 * Gregor-W just got capsploded.
23:49:40 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: TOTALLY
23:49:50 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: CAPITALS ARE MEANINGFUL
23:49:53 <oerjan> ivancastillo75: i find that i don't need to find the path, i'm being dragged along it no matter what i want
23:49:59 <Sgeo> ivancastillo75, we have meaningful conversation. More meaningful if you're a computer science person
23:49:59 <aliseiphone> DON'T YOU THINK
23:49:59 <ais523> put it this way: freenode is a network about open-source progamming
23:50:01 <Sgeo> Or a math person
23:50:08 <ais523> therefore, channels there tend to be implicitly programming-related
23:50:18 <aliseiphone> ais523: Save the 86857756 social channels.
23:50:31 <ais523> aliseiphone: officially discouraged, surely?
23:50:44 <aliseiphone> ais523: Only de facto.
23:50:45 <ais523> if this channel really was a social channel, it would be better at it
23:50:53 <ais523> and you mean "de jure", surely?
23:50:55 <Sgeo> I think #defocus is an official channel
23:50:59 <ais523> "de facto" means "in practice"
23:51:07 <ivancastillo75> Well, oerjan, don't be so weak willed!!
23:51:16 <aliseiphone> ais523: Freenode is Wikipedia and WordPress fanboy etc.; OFTC is the programmer's network
23:51:21 <aliseiphone> ais523: er, ofc
23:51:36 <ais523> aliseiphone: I can see how Wikipedia would fit on Freenode
23:51:43 <ais523> the mess that is Wikipedia IRC channels is rather unrelated
23:51:53 <ais523> as in, the fact that it doesn't work in practice doesn't preclude it being correct in theory
23:51:55 <aliseiphone> ais523: *fanboys I meant to say
23:52:04 <aliseiphone> that word is important :P
23:52:17 <aliseiphone> it is outside the and
23:52:18 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:52:20 <aliseiphone> not in it
23:52:36 * ais523 vaguely wonders what the strangest programming-related concept with fanboys is
23:52:39 <cpressey> ivancastillo75: You may or may not be able to find meaningful conversation here. I sometimes do.
23:52:54 <Gregor-W> What a sad statement X-D
23:52:56 <cpressey> Depends a lot on your proclivities, I suppose.
23:53:00 <ais523> ivancastillo75: but the meaningful conversation probably isn't going to be on a topic you want to discuss
23:53:14 <ais523> cpressey: it's a pity really, this channel could be really useful and productive
23:53:19 <ais523> for esolang meanings of "productive"
23:53:25 -!- SevenInchBread has joined.
23:53:30 <cpressey> ais523: I'm just happy it's not a pit.
23:53:30 <ivancastillo75> thank you for being honest!
23:53:58 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: It's all lies!
23:54:07 * Sgeo compiles ivancastillo75
23:54:12 <aliseiphone> We're really an esoterica channel.
23:54:12 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:54:24 <aliseiphone> Bet we got you there eh? Haha! Welcome!
23:54:35 <aliseiphone> >_>
23:54:42 <cpressey> Layers upon layers, you see...
23:54:46 <Sgeo> Here, we all speak PSOX.
23:54:47 <ivancastillo75> alisephone are you a programmer too?
23:55:01 * Sgeo waits for someone to slap him
23:55:09 <aliseiphone> ivancastillo75: All of us are :P
23:55:15 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: Word, bro.
23:55:31 * Gregor-W adds a slap command to Plof then invokes it to slap Sgeo.
23:55:47 * Gregor-W also adds a "slappage" page to Hackiki and adds Sgeo to its index.
23:55:58 <ivancastillo75> What's :P
23:56:11 <Sgeo> :P is sticking your tongue out
23:56:13 * Gregor-W furthermore writes a Slapper class in Glass and applies its "slap" method to Sgeo.
23:56:57 <aliseiphone> :P is a flag on your colon.
23:57:43 <ivancastillo75> I feel like I'm in Wonderland!
23:57:45 <oerjan> ivancastillo75: it's a smiley. turn your head to the left and it looks like a face.
23:58:24 <ivancastillo75> Does anybody here speak plain English?
23:58:38 <ivancastillo75> I get it!
23:58:39 <aliseiphone> ...
23:58:44 <aliseiphone> Only on Tuesdays.
23:58:51 <Gregor-W> ais523, aliseiphone and others speak only the Queen's English.
23:58:57 <ais523> Gregor-W: that term's outdated
23:58:57 <Gregor-W> Most of the rest of us speak only Yankee.
23:58:59 <cpressey> ivancastillo75: Well, you have to take into account that this *is* the Internet, and all.
23:59:08 <ais523> there's evidence that the Queen's accent has slipped towards Cockney
23:59:08 <aliseiphone> cpressey: It IS?
23:59:12 <pikhq> ivancastillo75: Plain? I speak'th not the plain English.
23:59:16 <aliseiphone> Oh boy. I had no idea.
23:59:24 <Gregor-W> OFF WITH HER HEAD
23:59:34 <cpressey> aliseiphone: You took a wrong turn at that truck stop outside of El Paso, I tell ya.
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