←2010-08-07 2010-08-08 2010-08-09→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:17 <pikhq> Right.
00:02:50 -!- alise has joined.
00:02:53 <alise> WTFFFFF
00:02:58 <alise> GTK doesn't respect fontconfig, seemingly.
00:03:04 <alise> Or, it does, just not local.conf. Or, ... what???
00:03:23 <alise> It wants Xft configuration instead, seemingly.
00:03:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, do you know of any nice monospace fonts?
00:04:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A few...
00:04:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Name!
00:04:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:05:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: All-time favourite would be OS X's Monaco. DejaVu Sans Mono is pretty good, you know, in the acceptable kind of way.
00:05:31 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:05:42 <alise> Luxi Mono is quite nice if you'd like a serifed monospace font.
00:05:59 <alise> Consolas is wonderful, but less-so outside of Windows.
00:06:11 <pikhq> Inconsolata's nice.
00:06:17 <alise> Yes, but it's so boring.
00:06:30 <pikhq> Which is not a bad thing.
00:06:38 <alise> Yeah, but, really, it's so boring.
00:06:52 <Sgeo> I hate this family
00:07:20 <pikhq> It's highly readable. Which is pretty much the only thing I care about in a monospace font.
00:07:24 <alise> Sgeo has such a great family life
00:07:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Droid Sans Mono is good but I can't distinguish it from DejaVu Sans Mono.
00:07:43 <alise> Incidentally, when do we get DejaVu Serif Mono?
00:08:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ah. Droid is fatter and less tall than DejaVu. An improvement.
00:08:03 <Sgeo> Well, there is no physical abuse, so that's at least something to be happy about
00:08:35 <pikhq> alise: Except that Droid Sans Mono also has CJK support.
00:08:53 <alise> Sgeo: Pretty baseline conditions there. :/
00:08:58 <alise> pikhq: That too.
00:09:18 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:12:29 <alise> Yay pekwm.
00:17:29 <zzo38> There is the 'patamagician class: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Patamagician.c (Is it good?)
00:17:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The word "cromulent" must be used more.
00:18:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No. It just embiggens people's reference-peen.
00:19:53 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Do *you* want to use the word "cromulent" use more?
00:20:44 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/cyk1s/mathematicians_of_reddit_question_about_prime/c0w810t
00:20:51 <Sgeo> I feel dumber for having read that
00:21:06 <zzo38> Do you like a 'patamagician class in D&D game?
00:21:06 <Sgeo> Actually, I haven't obviously
00:21:20 <Quadrescence> who has +o in here?
00:21:23 <Sgeo> Now that I've read that, it's obviously a jumble of buzzwords
00:21:28 <Quadrescence> alise: who has +o
00:21:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
00:22:00 <zzo38> That comment in Reddit is not make sensable!
00:22:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:23:42 <zzo38> Quantum entanglement is unrelated.
00:24:38 <zzo38> Quadrescence: You can modify the topic message without +o in this channel
00:25:50 <alise> Quadrescence: why?
00:26:13 <Quadrescence> alise: i want to paste an age old IRC exploit to kick those who have an old client but I don't want to be perceived as malicious
00:26:25 -!- augur has joined.
00:26:26 <alise> Quadrescence: just do it. this channel is a de facto anarchy
00:26:33 <alise> i don't know why you want to do it
00:26:34 <zzo38> Quadrescence: Then post it to external URL and post the URL here.
00:26:35 <alise> but feel free
00:26:41 <Quadrescence> zzo38: makes no sense
00:26:46 <alise> actual ops are lament, fizzie, oerjan
00:26:50 <alise> oerjan never, ever uses ops
00:26:52 <augur> alise: whereas #ranarchism is a de jure anarchy!
00:27:02 <Quadrescence> okay well lament is probably okay with me doing it
00:27:03 <alise> fizzie kicks obvious trolls after years of debate and then feels bad about it
00:27:04 <Quadrescence> <CTCP>DCC SEND "fixyourclient" 0 0 0
00:27:05 -!- Warrigal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:27:12 <alise> lament only uses his op powers to further chaos and evil
00:27:12 <Quadrescence> not bad only one down
00:27:15 <augur> you fix your own client, Quadrescence
00:27:22 -!- Warrigal has joined.
00:27:34 <zzo38> Quadrescence: Why did you send DCC SEND "fixyourclient" to the channel
00:27:35 <alise> augur: RAN archism?
00:27:45 <Quadrescence> zzo38: i just explained
00:27:47 <augur> /r/anarchism
00:27:51 <alise> ah.
00:27:56 <Sgeo> Wait, Warrigal's using an old client?
00:28:10 <alise> Let's try and see.
00:28:14 <zzo38> (In my computer, any IRC channels hosted there other than &SERVER do not even support +o (or any other modes), because of how I configured it)
00:28:15 <Warrigal> Am I using an old client?
00:28:17 <alise> oops
00:28:22 <Quadrescence> Warrigal: yes go fix it
00:28:26 <alise> ACTION abc
00:28:28 <alise> argh
00:28:29 <Quadrescence> see watch I will kick you again
00:28:34 <Quadrescence> <CTCP>DCC SEND "warrigal" 0 0 0
00:28:34 -!- Warrigal has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:28:37 <alise> hahaha sweet
00:28:43 <alise> i will now have endless fun with this
00:28:48 <Quadrescence> it is so funny when someone does it in #ubuntu
00:28:50 <zzo38> O, so that is how you do it
00:29:05 <zzo38> My client does nothing other than display the DCC SEND
00:29:06 <Quadrescence> they go to DEFCON 1 when it happens
00:29:09 <zzo38> So it is safe
00:29:13 <Quadrescence> zzo38: yes it is
00:29:19 <Sgeo> Warrigal's still insine
00:29:21 <alise> Quadrescence: can i do that without connecting raw?
00:29:22 <alise> with irssi
00:29:29 <augur> Quadrescence: this is annoying. stop it.
00:29:34 <Quadrescence> augur: what
00:29:40 <Quadrescence> augur: what is annoying
00:29:40 <alise> we can just specifically target warrigal now
00:29:44 <augur> your DCC shit
00:29:48 <Quadrescence> augur: what about it
00:29:50 <alise> Quadrescence: augur is probably set to go DING DING DING every time you dcc
00:29:55 <alise> also augur thinks he's an op
00:29:55 <Quadrescence> hahahahahaha
00:30:03 <Quadrescence> DING DING DING
00:30:12 <augur> no, it doesnt ping, it just pops up a window showing the DCC requests
00:30:24 <alise> even worse
00:30:27 <Quadrescence> augur plz don't be mad and fix your client
00:30:30 <Quadrescence> or I will do it to you more
00:30:49 <Quadrescence> alise: go do it in #ubuntu
00:30:50 <zzo38> My client simply displays the DCC SEND in red, inline together with all the other messages (which are normally blue).
00:30:59 <Quadrescence> zzo38: yeah you're ok
00:31:06 <alise> Quadrescence: what command, without manually connecting?
00:31:11 <alise> also, how long will i be banned for?
00:31:21 <Quadrescence> does it matter? aren't you quitting uboob anyway?
00:31:22 <zzo38> alise: Probably it depends what client you are using?
00:31:27 <alise> quitting, i quit it all the time
00:31:30 <alise> then i end up using it again
00:31:47 <Quadrescence> zzo38: All I do is paste it, including the NULL or whatever at the start (probably not a NULL but whatever)
00:31:55 <Sgeo> alise, I'll slap you if you intefere with anyone who needs to get help
00:32:09 <zzo38> Hay, why is your name "alise!~ehird"
00:32:13 <Sgeo> But that doesn't mean I won't enjoy seeing it happen
00:32:18 <alise> Oh my god I just flipped my screen upside down
00:32:21 <alise> I love xrandr
00:32:22 -!- Warrigal has joined.
00:32:30 <Warrigal> Huh, I didn't know this version of irssi was an old client.
00:32:31 <Quadrescence> Warrigal: did you fix
00:32:42 <Warrigal> No. What version of irssi do I have?
00:32:51 <Quadrescence> 9.4
00:32:54 <Sgeo> One vulnerable to some exploid
00:32:56 <Sgeo> *exploit
00:32:57 <zzo38> Just disable receiving DCC SEND in your client?
00:33:51 <Warrigal> Irssi tells me it's version 0.8.15, which appears to be the newest version.
00:34:07 <zzo38> I know how to send that kind of DCC SEND in my client, simply type <space> <Control+A> DCC SEND "fixyourclient" 0 0 0 <Control+A> <enter>
00:34:20 <zzo38> But most clients do not do it this way.
00:34:44 <alise> So, sloppy focus, howsabout it.
00:34:55 <Quadrescence> zzo38: no
00:35:01 <Quadrescence> You need that extra character
00:35:04 <Sgeo> What client is zzo38 using?
00:35:07 <Quadrescence> before DCC
00:35:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Why don't you check what client? Using CTRL+A VERSION command to check?
00:35:49 <zzo38> Quadrescence: What extra character?
00:36:02 <Sgeo> PHIRC?
00:36:06 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes.
00:36:39 <Quadrescence> zzo38: It's an invisible/unicode character. If you have proper fonts it'll show up as a box or a square with numbers
00:37:18 <alise> Quadrescence: you misunderstand.
00:37:29 <alise> Quadrescence: in zzo38's client, <Ctrl+A> literally inserts ^A.
00:37:34 <alise> i.e., the CTCP character.
00:37:35 <Quadrescence> Oh okay
00:37:39 <Quadrescence> sounds good
00:37:40 <alise> this is because zzo38 wrote his own client in php and it is basically raw.
00:37:44 <alise> (and insane)
00:37:49 <Quadrescence> I see
00:38:07 <alise> whaat xsetroot sucks
00:38:33 <Sgeo> "Brits, we're talking about mathematicians in this thread. Do you know what a mathematician is? That's not a physicist (Penrose), a computer geek (Lovelace, Babbage, Turing), or a political hack (Russell)."
00:38:56 <alise> Did he just call Bertrand a political hack?
00:39:07 <Sgeo> http://conservapedia.com/Talk:Essay:Best_New_Conservative_Words#Decrypt
00:39:12 <zzo38> (And the <space> is simply a shortcut to send a message to the current channel, if a space is typed at the beginning of the current line, it will automatically type in "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" on the command line, which can be backspaced as normal, and so on)
00:39:18 <alise> Ah, Conservapedia.
00:39:19 <alise> Okay then.
00:40:53 <zzo38> My client also does syntax highlighting of everything sent/received
00:41:09 <coppro> in what syntax?
00:41:16 <zzo38> coppro: IRC syntax
00:41:56 <augur> Sgeo: lmfao what is this
00:41:57 <augur> XD
00:41:58 <augur> oh
00:42:01 <augur> conservapedia
00:42:02 <augur> i see
00:42:51 <coppro> yes
00:42:53 <coppro> conservapedia
00:42:57 <coppro> the bastion for all idiots in the world
00:43:06 <coppro> half of them are trolls, half of them are serious, and you cannot tell the difference
00:44:11 <augur> thats hilarious
00:45:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:47:38 <oerjan> <alise> oerjan never, ever uses ops <-- hey, i _did_ ban fax
00:47:55 <alise> ah i didn't realise that was you
00:47:59 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I feel dumber for having read that <-- that comment was nonsense
00:48:01 <alise> fair enough then
00:48:08 <Sgeo> oerjan, I eventually realized
00:48:34 <Sgeo> Wait, fax was banned?
00:48:43 <alise> yes
00:48:47 <alise> for being completely insane
00:49:15 <alise> (to the point of spamming the channel with "FUCK YOU" for dozens of lines just because... uh, I think Phantom_Hoover took more than a few minutes to reply to s/h(it)'s message)
00:50:12 * Sgeo remembers in English class in 7th grade, "I you he/she/it" and someone said "I you he shit"
00:50:26 <alise> s/h(it) is oerjan's invention
00:50:53 * Warrigal looks at his ignore list.
00:51:16 <alise> Ooh, am I still on it?
00:51:33 <augur> yes, fax is fucking nuts
00:51:43 <alise> Quite LITERALLY!
00:51:55 <augur> alise: get this
00:52:12 <alise> I'm getting it.
00:52:12 <augur> she /ignored me
00:52:21 <augur> apparently because i told you she's a she
00:52:25 <alise> She? Are you implying that she's TRANSGENDER? She'll flip out about that, you know!
00:52:35 <alise> "It" is the only safe option here, really.
00:52:51 <Sgeo> Warrigal, alise is wondering if he's still on your ignore list
00:53:16 <Warrigal> No, he isn't.
00:53:43 <alise> Warrigal, Sgeo is letting you know that alise is wondering if he's still on your ignore list
00:54:08 <Warrigal> Let me know if alise asks me anything else.
00:54:26 <alise> Warrigal: wat
00:54:44 <Sgeo> Warrigal, alise is informing you that Sgeo is letting you know that alise is wondering if he's still on your ignore list.
00:55:02 <alise> alise is blinking
00:55:10 * Warrigal nods.
00:55:22 <alise> Warrigal: I have this sneaking suspicion that I am on that list.
00:56:08 <Warrigal> You know, if alise were on my /ignore list, I might say that he's not, just to make him feel better.
00:56:11 <Sgeo> Wait, Warrigal, did you say that alise isn't on that list, or that alise isn't wondering
00:56:13 <zzo38> Does ignore lists also cause auto-reply things to be ignored?
00:56:24 <Warrigal> I said that alise isn't on that list.
00:56:30 <zzo38> (Such as CTRL+A VERSION and CTRL+A TIME and so on)
00:56:43 <alise> I'm pretty sure I am on Warrigal's ignore list.
00:56:53 <alise> Warrigal: You do know that I can read that, right :D
00:57:01 <Sgeo> From now on, I will be exclusively speaking through alise
00:57:07 <oerjan> <alise> s/h(it) is oerjan's invention <-- it's supposed to be (s)h/it
00:57:09 <alise> Sure thing bro.
00:57:14 <alise> oerjan: well you're supposed to be HUH.
00:58:33 <zzo38> I do not agree with everything in the conservative words list, but I partially agree with a few of the comments there, but not fully. But there may be some things incorrect listed there, even if they say it is correct
00:58:40 <Warrigal> I don't think I could pull that off, though. If I really could see what alise was saying, it would probably be pretty obvious.
00:59:03 <Warrigal> Er, wait, I got confused there.
00:59:17 <Warrigal> I meant to say, if I really *couldn't* see what alise was saying, it would probably be pretty obvious.
00:59:20 <Sgeo> You could always logread to see what alise is saying
00:59:23 <Warrigal> Though if I could, that would also be pretty obvious.
00:59:27 <pikhq> Good *God*. Palm used Palm OS up until *2009*.
00:59:48 <Warrigal> So yeah. alise, it should be obvious whether you're on my ignore list or not.
00:59:52 <alise> Sgeo: I think he's enjoying being passive-aggressive more.
00:59:56 <Warrigal> My phone is a Palm OS device.
00:59:58 <Warrigal> I am.
01:00:16 <alise> Oh, such a clever ruse.
01:00:25 <alise> This I did not anticipate.
01:00:26 <Warrigal> I know.
01:00:40 <alise> My monocle poppeth out.
01:00:43 <oerjan> alise: also i recall the particular thing causing fax to break completely was someone telling em "You fail at life". in a discussion about the _game_ of life.
01:01:07 <alise> oerjan: he was always broken, just most of the shards hit other places first
01:01:17 <pikhq> What the hell happened to fax anyways?
01:01:27 <oerjan> pikhq: hasn't seen em since
01:01:31 * Sgeo remembers yelling at fax when fax pretended to be clueless with Haskell
01:01:33 <alise> pikhq: he "changed gender" (DON'T SAY THAT HE'LL KILL YOU) and went off his rocker
01:01:33 <oerjan> *i haven't
01:01:38 <alise> when he was male he was ... insane, but, you know
01:01:40 <Sgeo> What happened to MissPiggy?
01:01:43 <alise> Sgeo: = fax
01:01:46 <Sgeo> Oh
01:01:46 <alise> = soupdragon
01:01:50 <alise> = crazy-ass bitch
01:01:53 <pikhq> oerjan: No, I mean, I am literally clueless as to anything odd about fax at all.
01:02:06 <pikhq> Log links or something?
01:02:06 <alise> pikhq: Um. Basically he started calling everyone cunts if you just ignored him for a second
01:02:16 <alise> or did something which made him think you were stupid (even just giving a tiny piece of advice he disliked)
01:02:21 <pikhq> Somehow I missed all this.
01:02:23 <alise> he regularly spammed the channel if he was being ignored or whatever
01:02:27 <alise> held tons of grudges against people
01:02:31 <alise> then would whine at them for ignoring him
01:02:34 <pikhq> And he's not been in my ignore list.
01:02:38 <pikhq> So...
01:02:41 <pikhq> How the hell?
01:02:51 <alise> pikhq: grep (MissPiggy|soupdragon|fax).* in recent logs
01:02:54 <alise> enjoy the insanity
01:03:04 <alise> Gah why do gtk themes suck.
01:03:11 <Sgeo> Use Morphic!
01:03:27 <oerjan> not _that_ recent, from this year though
01:03:55 <alise> I wish Raleigh wasn't so damn ugly.
01:04:31 <alise> Is there a way to make Raleigh less 3D?
01:04:36 <pikhq> There should be searchable logs for #esoteric.
01:04:52 <alise> pikhq: There's Gregor's secret mirror.
01:04:57 <alise> (Secret because it takes ages to check out.)
01:05:17 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:05:40 <Sgeo> There are... world sauna championships?
01:06:19 <pikhq> alise: I managed to miss this at a time I literally was doing nothing. Wow.
01:07:18 <Warrigal> Heh heh, fax said string theory is wrong because it predicts more than 3 dimensions.
01:07:23 <alise> Warrigal: Yes.
01:07:27 <Sgeo> Was I online?
01:07:28 <alise> He said it was just "plain wrong" because KLEIN BOTTLES.
01:07:36 <alise> Furthermore, he claimed he had a proof for the existence of god
01:07:37 <alise> This proof?
01:07:40 <alise> "Watch a plant grow".
01:07:45 <alise> I am not exaggerating, I swear on my life.
01:07:48 <Gregor> Awwwwww
01:07:52 <Sgeo> Linky please?
01:07:52 <Gregor> That's adorable.
01:07:56 <alise> Find that log and read it and you will lose all religious faith because /God would not allow anyone to be so stupid/.
01:07:59 <Warrigal> It *is* adorable.
01:08:00 <Gregor> Adorable in a pathetic, sad kind of way.
01:08:19 <alise> Gregor: we kept telling him that it wasn't an argument and he basically started yelling "PLANTS!!!!!"
01:08:31 * Gregor greps his secret logs :P
01:08:35 <alise> then he just went psycho
01:08:42 * Sgeo wants searchable online logs
01:08:49 <Sgeo> What if he's schizophrenic?
01:08:52 <oerjan> <Sgeo> There are... world sauna championships? <-- so i seem to recall
01:08:55 <alise> also if you ever objected to any sort of religiouslyness or god thing like someone mentioning god gratuitously in a "mathematical" "paper" (ultrafinitism HEM HEM)
01:09:00 <alise> he'd go "oh you're one of THOSE atheists"
01:09:03 <alise> THOSE atheists = atheists
01:09:10 <alise> Sgeo: He probably is.
01:09:16 <alise> Sgeo: In fact, let's just go out and say he is.
01:09:31 <alise> -chime This option indicates that the clock should chime once on the
01:09:31 <alise> half hour and twice on the hour.
01:09:33 <alise> xclock, fuck yeah
01:09:38 <Sgeo> We should feel sympathy for him if he is. Try to get him to seek treatment or something
01:09:52 <alise> No, we really shouldn't. Besides he talked about seeing psychologists and shit
01:09:57 <alise> apparently they "just let him go"
01:10:05 <alise> whatever, even without schizophrenia he'd be an asshole
01:10:07 <alise> no sympathy
01:10:12 <Warrigal> I don't generally object to stuff like gratuitous God mentioning.
01:10:25 <Sgeo> I used to object back in 11th-12th grade
01:10:37 <alise> Warrigal: but this was a "paper" which started off like "I don't dislike infinity, I love it, I love it, I love God and his Glory and what he has Given us and and ..."
01:10:41 -!- Zuu has joined.
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01:10:45 <Sgeo> Someone fixes something on the teacher's computer, teacher goes "Thank God!", I say that it wasn't god...
01:10:46 <pikhq> Gregor: Hand me a day if you find it.
01:10:48 <alise> "...but mathematics is broken because exponentiation isn't total" (this was the actual argument)
01:10:53 <Gregor> pikhq: NO. MINE.
01:10:55 <alise> (it argued that "exponentiation is total" was an unfounded belief)
01:11:04 <alise> so yeah I was like "this is just some religious crap and then some bullshit"
01:11:06 * pikhq is manually grepping logs for relevant conversations
01:11:07 <Gregor> pikhq: Oh, you mean a day with fax crazitude.
01:11:13 <alise> XD
01:11:14 <Warrigal> alise: yeah, that's a bit overly gratuitous.
01:11:16 <Gregor> pikhq: I just found where 'e was banned.
01:11:19 <alise> "GIVE ME THAT DAY!"
01:12:01 <alise> This Two Minutes Hate is going great, public opinion of Eurasia^Wfax has never been so low.
01:12:24 <Warrigal> Good thing everyone hates fax now. I can't imagine what we'd do if we didn't all hate him.
01:12:28 <oerjan> we have _always_ been at war with fax
01:12:32 * Sgeo still wants a link
01:12:48 * oerjan wonders what'll happen if he reads that
01:12:51 <alise> Sgeo: DO YOU KNOW WHO ELSE WANTED A LINK?
01:12:52 <alise> FAX!
01:13:06 <Sgeo> And isn't it Emmanuel Goldstein that was hated in the 2min of hate?
01:13:06 <alise> oerjan: He will climb into our windows at night and brutally rape-murder us.*
01:13:07 <pikhq> Gregor: Mmm.
01:13:09 <alise> *I'm not sure I'm joking.
01:13:28 <Sgeo> I mean, yeah, we're at war with Eurasia^HEastasia^HEurasia
01:13:35 <alise> ^WOceania
01:13:47 <Warrigal> We're at war with EurasiEastasiEurasia? >.>
01:13:56 <alise> It's a foreign name.
01:14:01 <alise> Foreign like NAZISM.
01:14:23 <oerjan> Warrigal: there was a really _messy_ unification. philologically, at least.
01:14:59 <alise> And phonologically...
01:15:24 <oerjan> phonogilly
01:16:01 <zzo38> If I write Linux distribution I put my own "decoration" package, which is very simple and has only three things: analog clock (instead of xclock), xeye (instead of xeyes), and screen saver (with several modes, such as variations of munching squares display hack, analog clock, digital clock, arbritrary text, blank screen, status screen)
01:16:21 <alise> No love for xscreensaver?
01:16:42 <alise> No love for xscreensaver?
01:16:44 <alise> Whoops.
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01:20:36 * pikhq starts seeing the crazy
01:20:37 <pikhq> WTF
01:20:50 <pikhq> 12:26:19 <fax> alise why the fuck would you steal mathematica
01:20:52 <pikhq> *groan*
01:21:03 <zzo38> Other screen saver modes can include: dim screen, cellular automata, distribution logo, and energy saver.
01:21:10 <zzo38> That should be enough screen saver modes
01:22:07 <alise> pikhq: actually he then qualified it by saying it was because mathematica is shit xD
01:22:14 <alise> but he hated wolfram haters
01:22:23 <alise> unity/gtk-kde4 0.9.4-1
01:22:23 <alise> community/gtk-rezlooks-engine 0.6-9
01:22:23 <alise> Clean looking gtk theme engine based on the cairo-enabled CVS clearlooks engine code.
01:22:26 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ gtk-chtheme
01:22:28 <alise> (gtk-chtheme:2033): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_object_unref: assertion `G_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed
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01:22:44 <alise> sorry
01:22:46 <alise> did not intend
01:22:49 <alise> Here's fax's reddit page: http://www.reddit.com/user/cwcc
01:22:55 <alise> more fun fun fun
01:22:56 <oerjan> YOU NEVER INTEND
01:23:04 <zzo38> The text in arbitrary text mode and status display mode could be adjusted by manipulating files in the process's /9p/ directory
01:23:45 <alise> fax hated wikipedia btw
01:23:48 <alise> with a passion
01:23:58 <oerjan> alise: it would seem fax has disappeared from reddit too, then? or maybe he was banned.
01:24:12 <zzo38> (It is a idea of my Linux distribution (ArcaneLinux) that every process will have a /proc/[ID]/9p/ directory which is a file system by the program, if the program does not handle it, any accesses to the /9p/ directory will return a "device is busy" message or "no disk in drive" message)
01:24:17 <alise> maybe he killed himself. or moved on to another personality
01:24:58 <oerjan> oh, hm
01:25:25 <oerjan> he is presently on freenode as soupdragon
01:26:56 <alise> Anyone know an IM client that isn't Pidgin?
01:27:11 <alise> :P
01:27:49 <zzo38> alise: I don't know, I wanted to include some different IM protocol features into PHIRC, so if anyone wants to write the protocol plugins you can do so
01:28:11 <zzo38> What is your opinion of the ArcaneLinux process /9p/ directory idea?
01:28:19 <alise> zzo38: It's an idea.
01:29:49 <pikhq> alise: He really sucks at English.
01:30:00 <alise> pikhq: yeah that is a common trait of insane cranks.
01:32:01 <oerjan> oh
01:32:36 <Sgeo> "do u no c++" "I wish I didn't "But I could write in C++ if I had a gun up to my head"
01:32:39 <zzo38> The program "xeye" just can set -b (background color) -f (foreground color) -t (thickness) -a (always on top) -d (do not turn off borders from window manager), and then waits for coordinates from stdin, each line is X-coordinate, Y-coordinate, radius, and then it draws that eye on the screen, at EOF it continues running until interrupted, but you can still make adjustments in the /9p/ directory
01:32:47 <alise> Ahh, alt-right drag is so nice to resize windows.
01:32:57 <zzo38> And the program "xusb" can simply list connected USB devices.
01:33:05 <alise> Why X usb?
01:33:13 <alise> It should be lsub.
01:33:17 <alise> X is the graphical system.
01:33:36 * oerjan finds out why Sgeo was mentioning the sauna championship
01:33:37 <zzo38> alise: It would be the name, "xusb" is a program which lists USB devices in a window and updates it automatically.
01:33:41 <zzo38> That is why.
01:33:43 <alise> Also, for programs like that, waiting from stdin is Bad.
01:33:50 <alise> They should be command-line arguments in accordance with Unix design principles.
01:34:59 <Sgeo> alise, did Squeak blocks not used to be lambdas, but now they are?
01:35:02 <zzo38> alise: ArcaneLinux design principles are different though, which is that everything can be piped, and so on, and everything else. If you have a list of eyes already and don't want to add more afterward, just redirect the input from a file instead?
01:35:13 <alise> Sgeo: They were always lambdas, as far as I know.
01:35:27 <Sgeo> alise, but they weren't always closures
01:35:33 <Sgeo> So by your definition...
01:35:42 <alise> Sgeo: They weren't?
01:35:54 <Sgeo> Want to ask in #squeak?
01:36:24 <alise> No, I'll trust you.
01:37:05 <pikhq> alise: It is much quiter in #esoteric when you're not around.
01:37:12 <pikhq> Quieter, even.
01:37:14 <zzo38> (The other design principles of ArcaneLinux is don't add unnecessary icons and decorations and stuff to programs (except for decoration programs), and don't use GNU long options)
01:37:30 <alise> pikhq: I'll choose to take that as a compliment. :P
01:37:52 <alise> For a while, I was the centre of the #haskell social graph thing they had auto-generated; basically it looked at who responded to who, and who talked most, etc.
01:38:05 <alise> I was the biggest, most-connected and centre of the graph, despite not talking about actual Haskell much at all.
01:38:32 <pikhq> 16:30:32 * fax was getting along fine until people started being uppity /ignore users
01:38:35 <pikhq> *groan*
01:38:53 <pikhq> alise: You are a man who makes conversation happen, I guess. :P
01:39:02 <alise> Mostly useless conversation.
01:41:36 <alise> How-to-Do Girls - Bikini Calculus! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006U6KIK
01:41:58 <alise> Wat.
01:42:42 <Sgeo> Chain rule is last on that list, but chain rule's rather easy, so...
01:42:51 <alise> Yeah, but there's no bikinis.
01:43:08 <alise> In more advanced texts.
01:43:10 <alise> Or DVDs.
01:44:01 <Sgeo> No bikinis == good
01:45:40 <alise> You just don't appreciate Bikini Calculus.
01:46:06 <oerjan> maybe they've done bikini quantum mechanics too. with bras and kets.
01:46:24 <Sgeo> alise, I'd appreciate it more without the bikinis
01:46:27 <Sgeo> >.>
01:47:01 <oerjan> apparently not.
01:47:26 <zzo38> How can we trick the beholder to cast the "hold monster" ray on themself, so that we can use the "modify memory" spell then, and somehow to convince everyone that the gods is dead?
01:48:43 <alise> No-Bikini Calculus just doesn't have the same ring to it.
01:49:06 <oerjan> alise: depends how you interpret it.
01:49:10 <zzo38> Do you have any opinion of the answer of my question?
01:49:23 <alise> oerjan: Gee, you don't say.
01:50:10 <oerjan> Bikini Algebra has a ring to it though.
01:50:33 * oerjan waits patiently
01:51:24 <alise> I refuse to laugh or groan.
01:51:29 <zzo38> oerjan: Please wait forever. Your call is important to us. Push "0" for operator and then please wait even more forever, for listening to the operator, please.
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01:51:53 <pikhq> Why is reading old channel logs for here amusing?
01:52:09 <zzo38> pikhq: Because it has a lot of writing in it.
01:52:15 <alise> pikhq: Because we are awesome.
01:52:22 <alise> zzo38: Things aren't amusing just because they have a lot of writing...
01:53:04 <zzo38> alise: Yes, but it is, if it is amusing writing...
01:53:38 <oerjan> alise: spoilsport
01:54:42 <zzo38> If you print out a Whitespace or Unispace program, that does not have any comments, or header/footer, or web, that means that you can reuse the paper because it is still blank
01:56:35 * oerjan realizes that the trick is in the eye of the beholder
01:57:24 <zzo38> oerjan: You are right, that is part of it. But it still doesn't help that is only a little bit idea
01:58:11 <zzo38> (We have 2 monster characters in our party, that probably would help a bit?)
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02:11:51 <alise> Okay, why are there no simple GTK+ themes?
02:22:03 <pikhq> 07:03:15 <alise> Also I'd say that Japan imports less culture from other countries.
02:22:38 <pikhq> Not true. A good 70% (number pulled out of rectum) of Japanese culture is imported. It's just morphed a hell of a lot after importation.
02:25:48 <alise> I think OpenDNS is broken.
02:26:03 <alise> Hmm, maybe not.
02:30:02 <pikhq> 15:01:37 <oklopol> sometimes i like to pretend pikhq never googles anything but actually just happens to know everything
02:30:06 <pikhq> If only.
02:32:34 <oerjan> well if you ever googled you'd obviously have found that quote earlier
02:33:01 <alise> guh, gnome-look is down for me
02:34:02 <alise> Could someone follow this through to the download link and mirror it somewhere? http://gnome-look.org/content/download.php?content=72622&id=1&tan=70966423&PHPSESSID=6f31a60dfebaf1952b9c0467602dbe38
02:34:06 <alise> OpenDNS is being retarded.
02:36:12 <Sgeo> Switch to Google DNS?
02:39:19 <alise> No. Very no.
02:41:32 <alise> Can someone do that mirroring? Anyone? :P
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03:35:52 <Mathnerd314> alise: does http://gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-files/72622-Awakened.tar.gz work?
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03:43:23 <alise> pikhq: Linux Libertine is not so good when hinted.
03:56:42 <augur> alise!
03:57:39 <augur> sup kid
04:00:26 <alise> stuff
04:00:28 <alise> brb
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04:04:32 <alise> Whyyy does freetype fail so much
04:05:57 <Sgeo> Because nothing free can be good
04:05:59 <Sgeo> /troll
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04:06:36 <alise> you troll, but oh, how true it seems
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04:08:13 <alise> If you disable all hinting, it just looks like RISC OS.
04:11:52 <alise> brb testing something
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04:14:48 <alise> Okay, you know how PC speaker beeps are redirected to the speakers nowadays?
04:14:53 <alise> Yeah, how do I disable that and just let the beep DIE?
04:14:59 <alise> brb
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04:34:35 <zzo38> For the process /9p/ directory, if the program does not handle it, I read the opengroup list of errors I try to figure out which error it should be: ENODEV ENOSYS ENXIO
04:38:29 <zzo38> If you try to create a file there that the program it belongs to does not support (or modify an existing file in a non-supported way), should it return one of these errors? ENOSPC ENOSYS EROFS EACCES
04:39:24 <zzo38> But if the filesystem is only temporarily disabled due to the program doing something that should not be interrupted by calls to this file system, it could use EBUSY
04:40:09 <zzo38> (Or if the process is stopped)
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04:40:55 <alise> Testing.
04:41:06 <zzo38> For try to create a file there that the program it belongs to does not support, there is one more error code I forgot: EPERM
04:41:11 <zzo38> alise: Testing is OK.
04:41:14 <alise> Well, that hasn't worked.
04:41:24 <zzo38> alise: What did you testing?
04:41:28 <alise> "Stuff."
04:41:32 <pikhq> alise: Text rendering sucks everywhere outside of TeX. Just accept it or kill yourself.
04:41:32 <alise> freetype stuff
04:41:41 <alise> pikhq: It's marginally acceptable on OS X...
04:41:44 <alise> (With an Apple display.)
04:42:03 <pikhq> Ah, yes. Apple was obsessed with getting it right so it doesn't suck much there.
04:42:13 <pikhq> Sadly, we can't just go with Display TeX.
04:42:24 <alise> ... :D WHY NOT
04:42:33 <pikhq> ... Why not indeed.
04:43:01 <alise> Testing again
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04:43:11 <alise> Ew ew ew.
04:43:18 <alise> Okay; subpixel rendering is OUT.
04:43:19 <zzo38> For displaying text on screen that isn't a print preview, just simple bitmap fonts will do, I think
04:43:48 <alise> pikhq: I'm actually halfway to just going with http://sharpfonts.co.cc/; at least it'd just be ugly, rather than *actively hurting* my eyes.
04:43:54 <zzo38> Monospace will do for on screen text in many cases
04:44:35 <alise> pikhq: Unfortunately, slight-hinted greyscale text is ... well, blurry.
04:45:05 <alise> On a more upbeat tone, I managed to make a GTK+ theme that sucks less than the other ones.
04:45:13 <alise> I took Mist and changed the colours. It's now GreyMist. Guess what colours it uses.
04:45:33 <zzo38> Does it use grey?
04:45:41 <alise> CONGRATULATIONS!
04:45:49 <alise> You deduced the answer successfully!
04:47:22 * alise installs ROX Filer.
04:47:46 <alise> The /only/ file manager that doesn't suck. Probably.
04:50:43 <pikhq> alise: I've got to say, the DejaVu fonts are nice on screen with the actual TTF hinting running.
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04:51:36 <alise> There. I'm running the only thing I can stand: wispy, badly-defined, fully-hinted, greyscale text.
04:52:08 <pikhq> What distro you on?
04:54:15 <alise> Arch.
04:54:22 <alise> And yes, I've tried the patched freetypes.
04:54:45 <alise> pikhq: Being able to close a window in one click on the title bar: Dangerous, or hideously dangerous?
04:54:56 <pikhq> Moderately dangerous.
04:55:07 <alise> I'll leave it at Win+Middleclick, then.
04:55:56 <alise> pikhq: It's just that I keep hitting Middleclick expecting it to close!
04:55:56 * Sgeo closes alise by accident
04:55:57 <alise> Meh, I'll add it.
04:56:34 <Sgeo> Disconnecting soon
04:57:47 <alise> pikhq: Wow, click-to-focus seems so... static after sloppy focus.
04:58:54 <Sgeo> Use Smalltalk as your OS!
04:58:57 <Sgeo> </nonsensical>
04:59:22 <alise> pikhq: Can I just recommend pekwm+ROX-Filer+Midori as a nice desktop?
04:59:38 <alise> With my "bland" pekwm theme and "GreyMist" GTK+ theme, of course. >_>
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05:06:00 <pikhq> alise: Tempting.
05:06:08 <pikhq> What are you using for IRC and/or IM?
05:06:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:06:23 <alise> X-Chat for IRC, Pidgin for IM. Yeah, they suck, but so does everything else. Easy enough to use irssi or whatever.
05:07:29 <coppro> what sort of IM?
05:07:34 <coppro> IRC is an IM program
05:07:37 <coppro> *protocol
05:07:57 <alise> not really.
05:08:04 <alise> IM is more one-to-one.
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05:14:10 <zzo38> alise: You can do one-to-one with IRC as well
05:14:17 <alise> Yes, but..
05:14:21 <alise> *but...
05:17:21 <coppro> what's a good assembly language?
05:17:35 <alise> coppro: you mean, architecture?
05:17:42 <alise> ARM
05:17:53 <alise> MIPS
05:17:56 <alise> that's about it
05:17:59 <alise> MIPS is simpler i think
05:18:06 <alise> after all, Gregor isn't doing jsARM
05:18:27 <Gregor> MIPSv1 is simpler than any ARM. I can't speak to later models.
05:18:33 <alise> right
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05:22:12 <alise> Yay, I have tray icons and a clock now.
05:22:29 <zzo38> If I write file manager for my Linux distribution, I won't use ROX-Filer or any other. But instead, have it simply display a list of files (no icons or menus are visible), which can be typed by keyboard or selected by mouse, function keys and other keys can change sort and so on, and some keys do space-delimited copy to clipboard, newline-delimited copy to clipboard, select by wildcards, filter by wildcards, command entry, open command shell he
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05:23:00 <zzo38> re, and multi panes.
05:25:17 <zzo38> Is that good enough file-manager?
05:25:46 <alise> I guess.
05:27:36 <zzo38> Another feature would be to return a newline-delimited list of the selected files when the file manager window is closed.
05:27:42 <zzo38> (That is, return it to stdout)
05:28:18 <zzo38> Is this also a good feature, in your opinion?
05:28:30 <alise> I ... gues
05:28:31 <alise> *guess
05:29:23 <zzo38> Are any of these things I have described about it, things you would use or are interested in, or other people who are interested in?
05:31:14 <zzo38> There would be no menus, no toolbars, no icons for files, no context menus..... but there will be a status bar to indicate number selected, total size selected, current directory, current mode, and so on.
05:31:58 <zzo38> (And the three mouse buttons are used for different methods of selection, and also depending on single-click or double-click)
05:35:42 <zzo38> And three display modes: "short mode" (like output of "ls" to a color terminal), "long mode" (like "ls -l"), and "gallery mode" (displays a grid of thumbnails of all pictures in the directory, and ignores all other files)
05:36:17 <zzo38> (Gallery mode is the only mode that this program would display any graphics at all)
05:38:18 <zzo38> Are these all good ideas? Or are you differently?
05:41:49 <alise> I'm differently, but they are acceptable.
05:41:50 <alise> Goodnight.
05:41:51 <alise> Bye.
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05:42:26 <zzo38> Gregor: Are you still available and do you have opinion?
05:43:26 <Gregor> Yes, I'm still single but I'm not really into long-distance relationships.
05:43:28 <Gregor> I have no opinion.
05:44:25 <pikhq> However, Gregor *is* perfectly open to same-sex relationships.
05:44:54 <Gregor> That's a non-issue :P
05:45:28 <pikhq> He may well be implementing part of the plan for all geeks to get laid.
05:47:07 <zzo38> I am open to asexuality because I am asexuality. I am not sexuality, and I am not homosexuality, and I am not heterosexuality.
05:48:00 <pikhq> Congrats on not being abstract concepts.
05:48:08 <Gregor> +1 to pikhq :P
05:48:24 <Gregor> pikhq: While also being a particular abstract concept.
05:48:41 <pikhq> Indeed.
05:49:31 <zzo38> xeye [-i] [-b bgcolor] [-f fgcolor] [-t thickness] [-a] [-b] [-w intended_screen_width] [-h intended_screen_height] [< file]
05:50:46 <zzo38> xaclock [-b bgcolor] [-f fgcolor] [-t thickness] [-a] [-b] [-x x_coordinate] [-y y_coordinate] [-r radius] [-w intended_screen_width] [-h intended_screen_height] [-z timezone] [-s]
05:51:22 <zzo38> Are these sensible to you?
05:52:13 <zzo38> These are two of the three "decoration programs" I plan to put in my Linux distribution (only these three, the third being the screen saver)
05:53:09 <Gregor> Is xeye the program formerly known as xeyes?
05:53:25 <Gregor> But ... cycloptic?
05:53:37 <zzo38> No, xeye is a new program that does something like xeyes
05:54:13 <zzo38> It draws one eye for each line from stdin x,y,radius.
05:56:11 <zzo38> Does it make sense? Does xaclock make sense?
05:56:31 <Gregor> What's the purpose of the intended width/height attributes?
05:57:44 <zzo38> Gregor: To optionally synchronize with positions of a centered background picture (which are only potentially useful if you do not use the always-on-top option or the option to not suppress window borders)
05:58:40 <zzo38> For example, if you have a background picture with a big monster with 17 eyes, and a clock on the wall in the background picture, you can include the parameters with it to make it work with these decorations even if your screen resolution is different
06:00:25 <zzo38> (Obviously it won't work if the perspective is wrong, but that is something you have to deal with, if you want xeye and xaclock to work with it, ensure to draw it with the correct perspectives!)
06:05:53 <zzo38> We don't need the -i option. Instead, just have xeye support comments in stdin with # at front, and #! beginning a multiline comment that ends with #?
06:07:13 <zzo38> And the -s (sound effects) option needs to take one parameter, which is the volume
06:10:46 <zzo38> xalsave [-l] [-w timer] [-p] screen_saver_type [screen_saver_arguments...]
06:12:21 <zzo38> screen_saver_type: analog-clock, digital-clock, text, display-hack, blank, dim, status, cellular-automata, energy-saver
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06:54:01 <pikhq> Gregor: http://xplsv.com/prods/demos/xplsv_orsotheysay/ You may now feel inferior.
06:54:46 <Gregor> This utterly frozen browser sure makes me feel inferior ...
06:55:03 <pikhq> Chrome is needed.
06:55:10 <pikhq> Or recent Firefox.
06:56:16 <Gregor> Hm, is this canvas or something more exotic?
06:56:29 <pikhq> http://capped.tv/xplsv-or_so_they_say Or you could just watch a video of the same demo...
06:57:39 <Gregor> This doesn't really make me feel inferior though :P
06:57:41 <Gregor> Graphics ain't my thing.
06:57:53 <pikhq> Bah.
06:58:29 <Gregor> Heww Urf
06:58:32 <Gregor> *Hewwo
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08:32:06 * augur dances
08:36:16 <Gregor> augur: Dancing because?
08:36:32 <augur> im working on a linguistic command line
08:36:44 <augur> and the language module for it is coming along nicely
08:36:48 <Gregor> I'm working on ... taking pictures of my eye :P
08:37:05 <Gregor> So you can parse all English I assume? :P
08:37:48 <augur> lol
08:37:53 <augur> well, itll be a fragment of english
08:38:00 <augur> but the crucial part is what you do with the parses
08:38:32 <Gregor> Yesh
08:38:39 <Gregor> Understanding English is good :P
08:38:50 <augur> language modules are supposed to transform (partial) sentences into key-value hashes that are used to represent commands to the command line
08:38:52 <augur> so for instance
08:39:28 <augur> "move x to y" would be the command { pred: move, object: { pred: x }, to: { pred: y } }
08:40:52 <augur> but more importantly, it has to be able to take partial parses and do that
08:41:10 <augur> and it also has to be able to take partial parses, and a command, and turn the command into the full parses that correspond to it
08:41:27 <augur> e.g. if you have the partial parses for "move x" and the command from before
08:41:33 <augur> it should be able to generate "move x to y"
08:41:38 <Gregor> Star Trek, here we come.
08:42:01 <augur> :P
08:42:18 <augur> internally the way im doing this is kind of perverse
08:42:45 <Gregor> SHOW US THE CODE!
08:42:49 <augur> patience
08:42:52 <Gregor> :P
08:42:56 <augur> itll be on github in a few days
08:43:12 <augur> ill give you a preview in a few hours once i get it to a state that i like
08:43:51 <Gregor> I'll be asleep in a few hours.
08:44:12 <augur> ok ill put it on my server now for your
08:45:01 <augur> actually
08:45:08 <augur> hows a pastie?
08:45:49 <augur> http://ruby.pastebin.com/SBFwDwpe
08:46:00 <augur> mind you, im not a very stylistic ruby coder
08:46:16 <augur> i dont know all the standard style conventions
08:46:35 <Gregor> I don't even know ruby :P
08:46:48 <augur> the uh .. complete method is a complete mess, too
08:47:00 <augur> because of the various conditions that are involved
08:47:14 <augur> i could probably refactor the whole thing quite nicely but im not going to right now ;P
08:47:15 * Gregor 's eyes glaze over.
08:47:34 <augur> see, what i do internally is like so:
08:47:42 <augur> commands internally are turned into graphs
08:47:44 <augur> so instead of, say
08:47:59 <augur> cmd = { pred => move, object => { pred => x } }
08:48:03 <augur> itll become
08:48:17 <augur> { 0 => { pred => move, object => 1 }, 1 => { pred => x } }
08:48:42 <augur> then non-terminal in the tree is associated with a rule in the grammar, right
08:49:01 <augur> so lets just talk about grammars
08:49:13 <Gregor> I'm going to talk about sleep instead.
08:49:15 <Gregor> To myself.
08:49:16 <Gregor> And my bed.
08:49:18 <augur> aww :(
08:49:19 <augur> night
08:49:24 <Gregor> Bahee :P
08:49:56 <Gregor> But immediately before I go to sleep, have a random picture of my eye because it took a lot of work to get this (fuzzy, out-of-focus) shot: http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageorig&var1=Assorted%2Fmyeye-2010-08-07-4.jpg
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10:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, no!
10:58:33 * oerjan see no one with nick Oh, no
10:58:35 <oerjan> *sees
10:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't hum Also Sprach Zarathustra without it turning into the Mastermind theme tune!
10:59:02 <Phantom_Hoover> WHY, GOD, WHY?
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12:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> fungot
12:01:53 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover_: that you did." he stared down at oats. so did ysabell and the others?" said the archchancellor. he was walking unaided now, provided that it was a tsortean soldier. despite himself, death was his master and that's all there was to it.
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12:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> What random games could be made into Roguelikes?
12:34:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps Elite: the Roguelike.
12:35:02 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: Go.
12:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, ha.
12:35:27 <oerjan> hungry hungry hippos
12:35:59 <Phantom_Hoover> "The hippo lunges at the ball! The hippo hits! The hippo eats a ball corpse."
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12:38:36 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH if you made most modern games into Roguelikes they would be unbearably shallow.
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13:15:03 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if anyone else here has even heard of Elite
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14:52:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose someone knows why the Haskell logo is based on the bind operator.
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15:53:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, panos might be coming up later this evening. One or maybe two with grand sea view
15:53:23 <AnMaster> some from phone camera, some from my real camera
16:02:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Does pattern-matching really work in eager languages
16:02:40 <Phantom_Hoover> s/$/?/
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16:21:27 <alise> I can resize and move windows without focusing them. Cool.
16:21:42 <alise> No, wait, I can't.
16:24:05 <alise> Darned keybindings inconsistency.
16:24:18 <alise> Well. Mousebindings.
16:29:52 <alise> Okayyyy... why does osstest work but not mplayer
16:30:24 <Phantom_Hoover> cos of pi.
16:30:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Pattern-matching works in eager languages
16:30:44 <alise> see e.g. ML; in fact pattern matching in eager languages predates pattern matching in lazy languages.
16:30:48 <alise> and indeed lazy languages altogether
16:30:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/tjol__oe__holm_1.jpg (__oe__ represents ö)
16:31:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, quite small, used mobile phone
16:31:13 <AnMaster> there are some visible seams
16:31:43 <AnMaster> and it jpeg compresses the images badly
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16:31:50 <alise> Whoops.
16:31:57 <AnMaster> and yes, some quite bad colour shift
16:32:24 <alise> mwahahaha my window manager configuration will defeat evil
16:32:25 <alise> ahem.
16:32:36 <Sgeo> alise become: nil
16:32:39 <alise> what i meant to say is MWAHAHAHAHA
16:32:45 <alise> s/$/./
16:32:48 <alise> Sgeo: Sniff
16:32:50 <alise> *Sniff.
16:32:55 <alise> Sgeo: Try "true become: false" sometime.
16:33:31 * Sgeo tried Object become: nil. on the recommendation of a tutorial once
16:33:36 <alise> Sweet, Pharo is in AUR.
16:33:38 <Sgeo> The VM crashed
16:33:39 <Sgeo> AUR?
16:33:41 <alise> Sgeo: Of course.
16:33:44 <alise> Sgeo: AUR = Arch User Repository.
16:33:54 <alise> Basically a bunch of "source packages" for Arch Linux.
16:34:06 <alise> So instead of getting the binary your package manager goes and builds it, etc., then installs it.
16:34:15 <Sgeo> Aww
16:34:21 <alise> If you have a package manager that supports AUR it's basically like a regular package but sometimes not as polished and it takes a little bit longer.
16:34:32 <alise> Polish is only wrt patches and build settings, though.
16:34:37 <alise> Sgeo: Aww?
16:34:38 <Sgeo> true become: false. doesn't cause crashy crashy. It causes freezy freezy.
16:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Generally, http://www.conservapedia.com/Essay:_The_transitional_animal_the_flying_kitty%3F
16:34:46 <alise> Sgeo: Indeed
16:34:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Scroll down for complete insanity.
16:34:58 <alise> Sgeo: I think it's doing some sort of loop based on whether a value is true or false
16:35:06 <alise> Sgeo: and obviously it's always false, so the loop never terminates
16:35:08 <alise> thus freezy freezy
16:35:20 <alise> Sgeo: use of become: btw -- future values
16:35:21 <Sgeo> Well, the screen gets repainted when I unminimize
16:35:24 <alise> (you know what futures are?)
16:35:32 <alise> yeah but the VM handles painting
16:35:35 <Sgeo> ...any relation to laziness?
16:35:40 <Sgeo> (no, I don't)
16:35:54 <alise> basically a future is the result of a function called lazily
16:35:56 <alise> so e.g. you'd do
16:36:12 <alise> foo := @ bar longComputation: vitalInput
16:36:14 <alise> then if you did
16:36:24 <alise> "foo xyzzy", it'd return @ foo xyzzy
16:36:36 <alise> i.e. all message calls are delayed and run asynchronously, while "returning" immediately
16:36:43 <alise> you can force a future to be evaluated
16:36:53 <alise> now, when the future is forced, or the asynchronous computation completes, the Future code can do:
16:36:59 <alise> theFuture become: theResult
16:37:07 <alise> tada! no pesky wrapper objects left hanging around
16:38:03 <Sgeo> Why must SmallIntegers hate become:?
16:38:11 <alise> Sgeo: because they're not real objects
16:38:18 <alise> you get how every object is a pointer, right?
16:38:27 <alise> like 0xfff points to an instance of MyAmazingClass
16:38:28 <alise> well
16:38:32 <alise> what smalltalk does is align every pointer
16:38:39 <alise> so that every pointer ends with a 0 in binary
16:38:41 <alise> and then
16:38:55 <alise> every SmallInteger, which is 31 bits (or 63, I dunno if Squeak does 64-bit)
16:38:58 <alise> is stored in the rest of the pointer
16:39:02 <alise> and the bottom bit is set to 1
16:39:05 <alise> so there's no actual object there
16:39:10 <alise> it's stored inline, if you assign it to a slot
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16:39:15 <alise> or use it in a variable
16:39:32 <alise> instead of "x = pointer to <SmallInteger 3>" we have
16:39:36 <Sgeo> But that breaks the uniformity of everything being an object :(
16:39:45 <alise> "x = 0b1231"
16:39:49 <alise> erm
16:39:50 <alise> "x = 0b1101"
16:39:52 <alise> (for 0b110)
16:39:54 <alise> Sgeo: no it doesn't
16:40:00 <alise> Sgeo: from the perspective of the language SmallIntegers are objects
16:40:07 <alise> because you can send them messages, etc; this is handled specially by the VM
16:40:13 <Sgeo> objects that can't handle become:
16:40:23 <alise> it's not like "Object become: nil" works either
16:40:31 <alise> i'd say an error telling you you can't do it beats a VM crash
16:40:42 <alise> become: only works in controlled circumstances
16:41:02 <alise> Sgeo: besides, any class can override become: to give one of those messages
16:41:10 <alise> although you could manually delete it from that class, still
16:41:17 <alise> anyway if it wasn't done smalltalk would be slow as fuck rather than slow as shit
16:41:27 <alise> so deal
16:42:03 <Sgeo> Stupid efficiency concerns!
16:42:32 <alise> Hahaha. Smalltalk is the last one to worry about efficiency concerns.
16:42:41 <alise> Sgeo: anyway, SmallInteger absolutely does not break Smalltalk's purity
16:42:43 <alise> trust me on that one
16:45:53 <Sgeo> What happens when the future wants to return a SmallInteger?
16:46:09 <Sgeo> (Would actually come up if I used futures for the AW SDK stuff)
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16:47:06 <alise> Sgeo: that's fine
16:47:08 <alise> foo become: 3 works
16:47:10 <alise> just not 3 become: foo
16:47:19 <alise> theFuture become: theResult, theFuture is a Future, theResult is 3
16:47:31 <Sgeo> ...aren't they identical? become: is supposed to swap the two...
16:47:36 <alise> no it's not
16:47:46 <alise> "x become: y" doesn't touch y
16:47:49 <alise> it only touches x
16:48:00 <alise> "x become: y", i.e. "make x y", not "make y x too"
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16:48:09 <alise> "true become: false" makes all booleans false
16:48:16 <alise> (unless you derive your own type of boolean ... :P)
16:48:30 <alise> sed 's/last full capacity: *\([0-9]*\) mAh/\1/g p; d' # Using sed to grep as well, fuck yeah!
16:49:43 <Sgeo> alise, you're wrong
16:49:52 <alise> I am?
16:49:59 <alise> I really don't think I am ...
16:50:13 <alise> I know the code looks like it swaps them, but it doesn't afaik.
16:50:36 <Sgeo> http://pastebin.com/Ng8x8dcf
16:51:00 <alise> Hum.
16:51:01 <alise> That is new to me.
16:51:04 <alise> Okay then.
16:51:16 <Sgeo> There is a becomeForward:
16:51:20 <alise> Does "a become: 3" work?
16:51:22 <alise> Just out of curiosity...
16:52:08 <Sgeo> Error: can't become SmallIntegers
16:52:18 <alise> Sgeo: Then just make it an Integer.
16:52:22 <alise> Easy to convert.
16:53:23 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ pharo
16:53:23 <alise> libXdamage.so.1: wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64
16:53:23 <alise> could not find module vm-display-X11
16:53:23 <alise> /usr/bin/pharo: line 2: 15272 Aborted sh pharo.sh
16:53:23 <alise> Sigh.
16:54:37 <Sgeo> Going to watch some more SGA now
16:54:56 <Sgeo> If I had become: in C#, I'd abuse it to allow me to do unit testing
16:56:27 <Sgeo> fwiw, becomeForward: doesn't work with SmallIntegers either
16:56:53 <alise> I was going to express an opinion on SGA.
16:56:56 <alise> But it turns out I don't have much of a one.
16:57:14 <alise> Sgeo: just turn it into an Integer
16:58:24 <Sgeo> Um..
16:58:29 <Sgeo> How am I supposed to do that?
16:58:34 <Sgeo> asInteger doesn't help
17:00:13 <Sgeo> Back to SGA
17:00:52 <alise> [ehird@dinky src]$ ./battery
17:00:53 <alise> 43%
17:00:54 <alise> Yay, it works.
17:00:57 <alise> Sgeo: Integer new: 3, or something.
17:01:34 <Sgeo> Integer cannot have variable sized instance
17:01:41 <Sgeo> *instances
17:04:31 <alise> eh, i'd figure it out but i'm on 64-bit
17:04:34 <alise> which seems to be broken
17:06:38 <Sgeo> Ask for help in #squeak ?
17:15:28 <alise> I think it's an arch problem.
17:15:33 * alise has a battery script thing working!
17:15:54 <alise> Sgeo: 'Sides, don't you mean #pharo?
17:15:59 <alise> *Besides; 'sides is irritating.
17:16:26 <Sgeo> alise, there are 3 people in #pharo and I'm one of them
17:17:17 <Sgeo> Also, I only noticed this just now, but #pharo is the wrong #pharo
17:17:34 <Sgeo> ...and I was in the right #pharo-project which has 10 people
17:17:46 <alise> the AUR package just installs the 32-bit binary
17:17:50 <alise> lame
17:17:50 <Sgeo> But still, #squeak is far more active
17:17:59 <alise> I'll just compile Pharo myself
17:18:25 <alise> technically it's just the squeak vm
17:19:41 <alise> There; sudo clyde -S squeak.
17:19:44 <alise> Then I'll manually grab the image.
17:23:31 <alise> This setup is pretty nice.
17:23:39 <alise> Perhaps I'm converging on a desktop OS I can stand.
17:27:34 <alise> Hi Phantom_Hoover.
17:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Dunno why I did that.
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17:30:14 <alise> Sgeo: Is there a nicer/simpler theme than the OS X-style one?
17:30:16 <alise> I know there was in Squeak.
17:30:33 <alise> Hmm, they've switched to FirstLast instead of FL.
17:30:38 <Sgeo> There are other themes, but they're either ugly or broken
17:30:56 <alise> W2k isn't so bad. :-)
17:30:58 <Sgeo> World Menu -> System -> Settings
17:31:01 <alise> *W2K
17:31:07 <Sgeo> Oh, you found it
17:31:10 <alise> Hey, they finally made the settings browser not suck.
17:31:15 <alise> Sgeo: I /have/ used Pharo before, just an older version.
17:31:40 <alise> Sgeo: Soft Squeak and W2K both seem nicer than Watery 2.
17:31:48 <Sgeo> The buttons on the taskbar thing are inverted in W2k, and the buttons turn blue eventually
17:32:02 <alise> The buttons look fine to me on W2K. But blueness is bad.
17:32:12 <alise> Soft Squeak, then.
17:32:17 <alise> Standard Squeak would be nicer if it wasn't white.
17:32:26 <Sgeo> Um, try minimizing and unminimizing a window to see what I mean
17:32:31 <alise> Ah.
17:32:36 <alise> Anyway, in /my/ day we didn't _have_ a taskbar.
17:33:00 <alise> The OS X one is stupid anyway, the buttons are at the wrong side of the title bar.
17:33:35 <Sgeo> I'm not an OSX user, so I couldn't tell >.>
17:34:04 * alise makes his menus flat, without gradients or rounded corners.
17:34:20 <alise> Much more mature.
17:36:04 <alise> Oh yes, the UI only uses bitmap fonts by default, how sane.
17:37:39 <alise> "Allow underscore as assignment". <3
17:38:50 <alise> Sgeo: What's the way to show the halo# these days?
17:38:51 <alise> *halo
17:38:59 <Sgeo> Um
17:39:10 <Sgeo> I have no idea, I just like to pretend it doesn't exist
17:39:24 <Sgeo> That's an Ugly Squeak (TM) thing to me
17:39:47 <alise> It is. But it's also the only way to inspect some objects.
17:40:10 <Sgeo> Probably some combination of alt or ctrl and a left or middle or right click
17:40:21 <alise> Tried those.
17:40:31 <Sgeo> Maybe it's a menu instead of a halo?
17:40:47 <alise> Resizing windows is as slow as always...
17:40:49 <alise> Sgeo: Nope.
17:41:06 <Sgeo> Then I have no idea, sorry :(
17:41:17 <Sgeo> Ctrl-Click?
17:41:22 <Sgeo> Brings up a menu
17:47:39 <alise> Not on the taskbar.
17:51:52 <alise> Sgeo: Shaddap
17:52:07 <Sgeo> lol
17:57:21 <alise> Sgeo: Gah, "n asArray" spits out an array of SmallIntegers; one would think there would be a corresponding fromArray, but it seems not.
17:57:48 <Sgeo> ...why would there be a fromArray?
17:58:03 <alise> Because there's an asArray which returns something just about useless without a fromArray.
17:58:13 <alise> asArray
17:58:14 <alise> | stream |
17:58:14 <alise> stream := Array new writeStream.
17:58:14 <alise> self digitLength to: 1 by: -1 do: [:digitIndex |
17:58:14 <alise> stream nextPut: (self digitAt: digitIndex)].
17:58:14 <alise> ^ stream contents
17:58:48 <alise> Okay, so it returns digits. Hmhm.
17:59:00 <Sgeo> Or, you know, anArray at: 1
17:59:14 <Sgeo> Seems to work
17:59:18 <alise> Eh?
17:59:23 <alise> Sgeo: nope
17:59:27 <alise> 65536 asArray
18:00:01 * Sgeo wtfs
18:00:33 <Sgeo> {65536} at: 1
18:00:37 <Sgeo> But that's not ANSI
18:01:12 <alise> Sgeo: ??
18:01:28 <alise> Gahh, I hate it when people go "WHY DO YOU WANT TO DO THIS? How DARE you ask without a practical, BUSINESS, best-practices reason for doing this thing?"
18:01:33 <alise> Sgeo: why are you wtfing?
18:01:42 <Sgeo> Because asArray makes no sense
18:01:50 <alise> 65536 asArray #(1 0 0)
18:01:54 <alise> Sgeo: Protip: The base isn't decimal.
18:02:32 <alise> Uh, I'm not sure what base it is.
18:02:45 * Sgeo wtfs at base 256
18:02:52 <Sgeo> (Trial and error)
18:02:54 <alise> Is it base 256?
18:02:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, where did people go that?
18:03:08 <alise> Oh yeah, ofc
18:03:11 <Sgeo> 256r100 65536
18:03:13 <alise> log256(65536)
18:03:15 <alise> erm...
18:03:35 <alise> not what i meant
18:03:44 <alise> you know what i mean
18:03:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: #squeak
18:03:55 <alise> <alise> How should I box a SmallInteger into a (Large) Integer?
18:03:56 <alise> <Sgeo> =P
18:03:56 <alise> <alise> I have no idea what you're talking about. >__>
18:03:56 <alise> <BrianRice> alise: why would you need to do that?
18:03:56 <alise> <alise> BrianRice: e.g. to use with become:
18:03:56 <alise> <BrianRice> alise: what's the overall goal/problem?
18:03:58 <alise> <BrianRice> there are ways to do it, but I'll avoid it if the purpose is just wankery
18:04:00 <alise> well
18:04:04 <alise> <BrianRice> alise: what's the overall goal/problem?
18:04:04 <alise> <alise> Sgeo was wondering :-) just academic, although e.g. an implementation of futures that does "theFuture become: theResult" on completion would need to do it
18:04:07 <alise> <alise> if the result could be a SmallInteger.
18:04:09 <alise> <BrianRice> there are ways to do it, but I'll avoid it if the purpose is just wankery
18:04:59 <alise> <BrianRice> I expect that you should probably just look at existing implementations of futures like Squeak-E's promises
18:05:00 <alise> <alise> Well, yeah, it was just a hypothetical example.
18:05:00 <alise> <BrianRice> here, I'll teach you how to fish
18:05:19 <alise> I urgently require a method to slap people over TCP/IP.
18:05:32 <Sgeo> IMO, it seems more like giving us fish we aren't even interested in
18:05:35 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the SCPs could do that. IIRC.
18:05:46 <Sgeo> Oh
18:06:00 <alise> <BrianRice> go open a class browser and look at the class side of Integer and its subclasses. or try browsing references to large integer class names, since those would be calling class-side methods.
18:06:00 <alise> <alise> Yeah, I did that.
18:06:00 <alise> <alise> I've been looking for ten minutes.
18:06:01 <alise> Fuckwit
18:06:29 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, does asArray just break the integer down into its constituent bytes and arrayise them?
18:06:29 <alise> "Why do you want to know, mere mortal?" "What's that? You're just CURIOUS? Well I know, but I'm not telling you." "Here, let me be condescending." "Have you looked at the class?"
18:06:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Apparently.
18:06:51 <Phantom_Hoover> What a strange thing to do.
18:07:34 <alise> <BrianRice> keep at it. you need to learn this skill and I can't just fix it over IRC
18:07:35 <alise> <alise> BrianRice: Well, it seems you're more interested in being condescending than actually helping at all. I'd looked for 15 minutes and, if you knew, you could answer in one line; if you didn't want to tell me, you could have not said anything; but instead you're lecturing me about doing something I've already done. So thanks, but no thanks.
18:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Learn how to look through a class browser?
18:08:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Is this guy for real?
18:09:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, professionals
18:09:57 <alise> I presume he's a professional, nobody else uses Smalltalk apart from hobbyists and they're just as assholic but less condescending.
18:10:13 <alise> <BrianRice> alise: hey, I'll readily admit I don't know, but I don't know any question here on channel when first asked. I always figure it out dynamically. you guys are just not motivating me if you don't have an actual problem to solve and won't read existing code that does this.
18:10:13 <alise> <alise> BrianRice: you said "there are ways to do it"... I'd read existing code that does it if I had any idea where such code is.
18:10:13 <alise> <alise> I thoroughly looked at every method that could be in any way relevant.
18:10:13 <alise> <BrianRice> well, try debugging an overflow condition
18:10:18 <alise> What ridiculous advice.
18:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> asArray breaks a bigint into constituent bytes, doesn't it?
18:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, there's no toArray.
18:12:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "Assholic" is a wonderful word, BtW.
18:13:28 <alise> Sgeo: Yeah, dearrayising works.
18:13:31 <alise> But it's so... silly.
18:13:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Hide it in a function and pretend it doesn't exist?
18:14:25 <Sgeo> What if you don't know whether ot not it's a SmallInteger, and don't want to deal with it on the side using the future?
18:14:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No such functions.
18:15:03 <alise> Sgeo: Eh?
18:15:12 * Phantom_Hoover likes functions
18:15:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Only methods.
18:15:21 <alise> Sgeo: You can check what class a value belongs to.
18:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> But I like methods.
18:15:32 <Phantom_Hoover> But which is better? There's only one way to find out!
18:20:37 <alise> Sgeo: aha!
18:23:09 <alise> Sgeo: got it
18:23:25 <alise> b := a positive ifTrue: [LargePositiveInteger new: 4] ifFalse: [LargeNegativeInteger new: 4].
18:23:30 <alise> b replaceFrom: 1 to: 4 with: a startingAt: 1.
18:24:03 <alise> replaceFrom:to:with:startingAt: is a primitive, too, so this should be the most efficient way, more or less.
18:29:07 <alise> Sgeo: Do you know the coding convention for when you do (...) someMsg: ... but the ... has an indent?
18:29:12 <alise> I have
18:29:16 <alise> toLargeInteger
18:29:16 <alise> ^ (self positive
18:29:17 <alise> ifTrue: [LargePositiveInteger new: self digitLength]
18:29:17 <alise> ifFalse: [LargeNegativeInteger new: self digitLength])
18:29:17 <alise> replaceFrom: 1 to: self digitLength with: self startingAt: 1.
18:29:29 <alise> but it seems weird how the replaceFrom:to:with:startingAt: line lines up with the conditional.
18:29:39 <alise> are you meant to have it unindented?
18:31:44 <alise> *asLargeInteger
18:33:22 <alise> Sgeo: ok, do you know how to file-out more than one method?
18:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, do you know where there's any decent documentation for Epigram 2?
18:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> There's the Epitome, but that hardly counts
18:34:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: there's a lot of links here: http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/web/
18:34:10 <alise> http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~adam/type-inference/
18:34:10 <alise> http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~dagand/#publications
18:34:16 <alise> Everything on http://strictlypositive.org/
18:34:26 <alise> and most especially http://www.e-pig.org/epilogue/
18:34:38 <alise> There is no real actual written documentation, but by reading those and the Epitome you should be able to figure out ... well, something.
18:34:50 <alise> there's also
18:34:54 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/man/man.html
18:34:59 <alise> the tiny manual
18:35:06 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/test/Syntax.pig
18:35:56 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:36:17 <zzo38> Does this count as a three-star literate programming? if(*rule=='#' && (rule++,!is_weaving)) return;
18:36:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also http://www.reddit.com/user/pigworker, Conor's reddit account
18:36:47 <zzo38> (See: You've used the boolean operators to sequence commands - without an 'if'. e.g. (result = do_something()) && (result = do_something_else()); on the C2 wiki)
18:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Epigram, Agda and Coq are the most widely-used dependently typed languages, yes?
18:38:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nobody uses Epigram. It's purely a research project, but it /is/ one of great interest.
18:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Why, exactly?
18:38:28 <alise> Nobody uses Agda apart from the Agda developers and Haskellers who like to think they're mathematicians. It's a research system too, just with a lot of seemingly-pointless real world libs tacked onto an unstable system.
18:38:34 <alise> People use Coq.
18:38:37 <alise> It's mature and works well.
18:38:40 <alise> (for proving)
18:38:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because Epigram doesn't even have the upper layer language yet!
18:38:53 <alise> You know GHC's Core language that it compiles to?
18:38:55 <alise> The very small functional one?
18:38:58 <alise> Epigram, right now, is like that.
18:39:05 <alise> Epigram 1, sure, but nobody used that and it was never really completed.
18:39:12 <alise> Epigram 2 is in the very early stages (and has been since ~2005).
18:39:20 <alise> It's not nearly a useable language yet.
18:39:27 <alise> *usable
18:40:05 <zzo38> (But if I used && to sequence commands in C like that, I would probably only use it if there are many commands to be sequenced together in that way, and maybe type @/ after each one to make them appear on separate lines in the printout)
18:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, what are you going on about?
18:41:47 <zzo38> Literate Haskell is just a fake kind of literate programming!
18:41:56 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
18:42:04 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: What do *you* think I am going on about!
18:42:09 <alise> zzo38: You're right but that's ... terribly hyperbolic.
18:42:10 <zzo38> s/!/?/
18:42:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea, except that literate programming comes into it somewhere.
18:42:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't worry, none of us have any idea either.
18:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's good to know.
18:43:03 <zzo38> alise: What are you refering to, I wrote many things? What is right and terribly hyperbolic?
18:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Does Epigram 2 have the cool syntax of Epigram 1?
18:43:24 <alise> <zzo38> Literate Haskell is just a fake kind of literate programming!
18:43:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not yet.
18:43:30 <Phantom_Hoover> :(
18:43:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Who knows what it will look like?
18:43:48 <zzo38> alise: O, so you agree? How is it terribly hyperbolic, though?
18:43:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In 2005 they were scribbling on whiteboards. In recent years they've been redesigning the entire thing then finding out it's broken a few times.
18:43:58 <alise> Now they're actually writing the start of some code.
18:44:01 <alise> It's not a fast project.
18:44:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so the Epitome isn't so massive as to be totally unreadable?
18:44:25 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:44:35 <alise> zzo38: I agree because it can't do rearranging; but it's hyperbolic because in Haskell, this doesn't matter: functions are always very small, and they can access the state of other ones in the correct monads, so you just separate into functions instead of the <<things>>.
18:45:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If you can handle tons of fun symbols where ASCII would go in real source code, and have an excellent ability to distinguish actual type theory from Conor's jokes, then it should be fine.
18:45:08 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf
18:45:12 <zzo38> alise: Ah, yes, OK.
18:45:13 <alise> It isn't that long because, indeed, they haven't got very far.
18:45:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, so it isn't actually real code?
18:46:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It is.
18:46:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's just preprocessed to make it all pretty with symbols and shit.
18:46:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
18:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun symbols are not used enough in code.
18:47:04 <alise> Well, a lot of these don't even exist in Unicode, I think. :-)
18:47:11 * alise tries to find a pdf reader
18:47:31 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Unicode has EVERYTHING, doesn't it?
18:47:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nope.
18:47:45 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Not quite everything.
18:47:46 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ ./src/battery
18:47:46 <alise> 5% (.22 hours remaining)
18:47:47 <alise> Uh-oh.
18:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> A large subset of everything?
18:47:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nope.
18:48:05 <zzo38> But it is possible to add stuff in some sections meant for that purpose
18:48:18 <Phantom_Hoover> A small subset of everything and a billion Chinese characters?
18:49:12 <pikhq> I seem to recall Unicode can encode all *currently spoken* natural languages by now.
18:49:28 <Phantom_Hoover> But MATHEMATICS?
18:49:35 <pikhq> Well, all currently spoken, *spoken* natural languages, with an orthography.
18:50:01 <pikhq> And a decent number of historical scripts as well.
18:50:06 <pikhq> By no means complete though.
18:50:27 <pikhq> And, of course, its encoding of Chinese script is very much incomplete.
18:51:33 <pikhq> Gets the vast majority of CJK glyphs currently used, at least.
18:52:16 <pikhq> Though it inexplicably doesn't encode "Biáng biáng noodles".
18:54:53 <alise> Okayyy, I sure hope there is a good PDF reader in existence that isn't Evince.
18:54:56 <alise> (Evince depends on GNOME.)
18:55:18 <alise> pikhq: What do you read PDFs with?
18:56:21 <pikhq> alise: Currently, xpdf.
18:56:27 <pikhq> I would love a better PDF reader.
18:56:28 <alise> Ew.
18:56:43 <alise> pikhq: Evince is really nice if you can handle the GNOME dependencies; really really nice.
18:56:58 <alise> pikhq: You might like zathura: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=80458
18:57:16 <alise> I don't because I'm a bit of a mouse weenie.
18:58:02 <alise> My perfect PDF reader: Continuous view, scroll bar for the whole PDF. Resizing the window scales the PDF to fit the width. /Maybe/ some way to show the page number.
18:58:15 <pikhq> Write one.
18:58:41 <alise> Okay.
18:58:46 <alise> So I need to figure out poppler and GTK.
18:58:55 <pikhq> Yuh.
18:59:01 <pikhq> (thank God for poppler)
18:59:30 <alise> I shall christen it... pew. For "Pdf viEW"? Maybe?
19:00:53 <alise> pikhq: Okay, I'd better install an editor then!
19:01:00 <alise> All I have is XFCE's mousepad (which is a nice notepad replacement, btw.)
19:01:13 <Gregor> Have fun reflowing PDFs.
19:01:25 <pikhq> Gregor: Scaling != reflowing
19:01:33 <pikhq> Scaling = zoom
19:01:43 <alise> Yeah, that.
19:01:50 <Gregor> Ah, OK, I misinterpreted the goals then.
19:01:59 <alise> Gregor: Mind you, I'd /love/ to be able to reflow PDFs.
19:02:03 <pikhq> alise: Y'know what there's a horrible lack of? Nice keyboard-based GUIs.
19:02:24 <alise> pikhq: There is, but this PDF reader won't fill that gap, seeing as it'll have, uh, no controls.
19:02:39 <alise> It might have /one/ control: to show the page # information.
19:03:00 <pikhq> See, I prefer graphics over a console. Unfortunately, the only things with keyboard-based interfaces are on a terminal for the most part...
19:03:11 <alise> Well, also search.
19:03:15 <alise> Search will just be /foo.
19:03:27 <alise> Or maybe Ctrl+S foo.
19:03:29 <alise> Or Ctrl+F foo.
19:03:30 <alise> Who knows.
19:04:14 * Phantom_Hoover just walked into a throne room in Nethack.
19:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, crap.
19:04:29 <pikhq> A GUI IM client which can be used without a mouse would be nice, for instance.
19:04:32 * Phantom_Hoover attempts to close the door on the roomful of monsters.
19:04:56 <pikhq> (as would a TUI IM client at all, for that matter. I'm currently using freaking irssi via bitlbee. Bit clunky.)
19:05:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look, the stairs are in it. Wonderful.
19:05:12 <alise> pikhq: If I ever get around to making my IRC client it'll fit that definition.
19:05:24 <alise> pikhq: It /will/ have menus, but anything you're ever going to want to do will be keyboard-based.
19:05:34 <pikhq> alise: Mmkay.
19:05:42 <alise> I mean, occasionally I end up operating in mouse-only mode for a while.
19:05:50 <alise> Especially if I'm browsing a lot.
19:06:06 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and of course the main feature, which will be proper typography.
19:06:18 <alise> Say, /actual spacing/ between the messages. Actual line spacing, for that matter.
19:06:25 <alise> In fact, I could just take cues from how plays are typeset, couldn't I?
19:06:31 <alise> They're pretty similar to IRC.
19:06:44 <pikhq> It's just that... Urgh. The mouse is such a piss-poor interface device for most things.
19:06:57 <alise> I agree, but... with reservation.
19:07:01 <Phantom_Hoover> * Romeo is feeling suicidal
19:07:14 <alise> I like to manage windows with my mouse -- that doesn't imply a floating manager, though.
19:07:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover knows about my platonically-ideal tiling mouse-based WM design.
19:07:25 <alise> (It is glorious.)
19:07:47 <pikhq> Yes, yes. A mouse is good for dealing with things that are inherently dealing with XY positions.
19:08:10 <pikhq> It's poorly adapted for "I want to hit the foo button, then the bar button, and then the baz option on the menu."
19:08:21 <alise> Right now I can manage all my windows with just a three-button mouse and the alt key. (Alt+left to move, Alt+middle to group in tabs iwth another window, Alt+right to resize, double click title bar to maximise, middle click title bar to close, right click title bar to hide, alt+right click title bar to bring up menu)
19:08:41 <alise> (This is, incidentally, the nicest WM workflow I've come across yet. At least until I make that tiling WM.)
19:08:54 <pikhq> A keyboard is *better* for such things, though perhaps a bit sub-par.
19:09:07 <alise> Better for what I said or for what you said?
19:09:13 <pikhq> For what I said.
19:09:35 <alise> Mm. For what I said, wrt the clicks, you'd think so, but actually the instinctual action kicks in. Like the Plan 9 guys say, the keyboard is a lot more think-y, whereas the mouse is a lot more do-y.
19:10:02 <pikhq> (optimal would be something with an entirely-software-driven tactical interface. Physical buttons being made as the software needs it, for instance.)
19:10:07 <alise> So even for closing windows, etc., I find the mouse more efficient (even though if you "self-timed" yourself in your head it'd probably seem slower since the keyboard is occupying brain CPU time, whereas the mouse is "boring" instinctual work)
19:10:11 <alise> pikhq: Yes; very yes.
19:10:24 <alise> pikhq: Although any position where you can touch your screen is awkward with a typical screen.
19:10:30 <alise> Have you read Stanislav's The Glove Box?
19:10:41 <alise> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=35
19:10:43 <pikhq> I never said anything about it being the normal display screen.
19:10:46 <alise> Indeed.
19:10:55 <alise> The Glove Box is a 3D, tactile display.
19:10:56 <pikhq> Think about something like a keyboard, except the buttons come in and out as the software demands.
19:11:09 <pikhq> Or a 3D tactile display. :P
19:11:20 <alise> I suggest reading the post; it even mentions how you could do such a "display".
19:11:23 <pikhq> (and of course, you get a normal keyboard for text input)
19:11:50 <alise> I dunno, I bet I could invent hand movements that represent letters/words more efficient than a keyboard.
19:11:51 <alise> Look at sign language.
19:11:59 <alise> With the Glove Box, that would be easy to implement.
19:13:06 <pikhq> alise: I was imagining just a mere keyboard-thing with software-defined buttons.
19:13:17 <pikhq> With the Glove Box, you've got much more room for input design.
19:13:19 <alise> pikhq: You mean the Optimus thing? XD
19:13:28 <alise> *Optimus Maximus
19:13:30 <alise> http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/
19:13:37 <pikhq> alise: No, no, no. The buttons do not exist until the software requires them.
19:13:41 <alise> Only $2,400!
19:13:44 <pikhq> And they exist in the shape so asked for.
19:13:58 <pikhq> This would be, ah, *hard*.
19:14:04 <pikhq> Glove Box is amusingly a bit easier. :P
19:14:22 <alise> (add-hook 'c-mode-hook (lambda ()
19:14:22 <alise> (c-set-style "linux")
19:14:22 <alise> (setq tab-width 4)
19:14:22 <alise> (setq c-basic-offset 4)))
19:14:26 <alise> Time to code.
19:15:21 <alise> "There is currently very little documentation." --poppler
19:15:23 * alise cries
19:15:29 <alise> Glib: Documentation is in the release under glib/reference/html/
19:15:31 <alise> Oh fuuuck you.
19:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "Glib" is another good name for software.
19:16:37 <alise> A good name for awful software.
19:17:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Glib <=> Object-oriented C?
19:17:27 <alise> pikhq: ePDFView may be good; Evince sans GNOME.
19:17:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Plus other crap base don that, yes.
19:17:32 <alise> *based on
19:17:43 <alise> Not just OOP C; GObject, the worst possible incarnation of it.
19:17:52 <alise> pikhq: It's in emerge.
19:18:35 -!- augur has joined.
19:18:41 <alise> Doesn't support proper continuous mode though. Sigh.
19:20:20 <alise> pikhq: "index.sgml" --poppler source tree
19:20:28 <alise> It is actually SGML; I am not fucking with you.
19:20:41 <alise> <ANCHOR id="poppler-poppler" href="poppler/poppler-poppler.html">
19:20:41 <alise> <ANCHOR id="poppler-poppler.synopsis" href="poppler/poppler-poppler.html#poppler-poppler.synopsis">
19:20:41 <alise> <ANCHOR id="PopplerDocument" href="poppler/poppler-poppler.html#PopplerDocument">
19:20:41 <alise> ...
19:20:54 <pikhq> ... *It is actually straight SGML*. My God.
19:21:18 <Phantom_Hoover> What's wrong with straight SGML?
19:21:27 <alise> Anyway, pew will be written in either Vala or Genie.
19:21:44 <alise> Since I have to deal with Glib and GTK+.
19:22:32 <pikhq> Yeah, if you're using GTK+ you may as well retain sanity.
19:23:42 <alise> Genie is great, have I mentioned that? It's a compiled-almost-straight-down-to-C-plus-GObject language with Pythonesque syntax (but without stupid colons) and with proper lambdas (they can contain statements)...
19:24:20 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with Python's crippled lambdas, by the way?
19:25:31 <alise> GvR is retarded.
19:25:51 <coppro> mm... popplers
19:26:12 <alise> My competing PDF library will be called "tribble".
19:26:25 <alise> Wow, that's an indirect reference. Can we get some three-star referencers in here?
19:27:20 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:27:38 <alise> pikhq: This: http://sprunge.us/cKiP compiles to this: http://sprunge.us/feLC
19:29:16 <alise> How do you configure the browser XChat uses?
19:30:14 <pikhq> alise: Nice.
19:30:46 -!- AnMaster has joined.
19:34:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, apart from the above mentioned pano today I have this one: http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/tjol__oe__holm_2.jpg
19:35:08 <AnMaster> my good camera, but some parallax
19:35:21 <AnMaster> less in the preview, it really selected bad seams
19:36:08 <AnMaster> have a few more, not sure if I will do them now or later
19:37:12 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> You killed fungot
19:38:28 <Phantom_Hoover> !
19:39:16 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:39:44 <AnMaster> I didn't
19:39:56 <zzo38> A best kind of PDF view is, displays nothing except status bar (which shows page number and filename, and numeric prefix to commands), and the page view.
19:40:05 <AnMaster> zzo38, s/A/The/ ?
19:40:13 <zzo38> And then, "v" switch view to normal document view or bookmarks view, "p" to print document, "s" to search, "S" for document status, "d" to change display settings, "return" to go to page by numeric prefix, "t" to convert to text,
19:40:16 <zzo38> "a" to adjust settings of document in memory, "C" to adjust command-line flags,
19:40:35 <zzo38> No interactive or animation or whatever
19:40:44 <zzo38> (unless enabled by command-line flags)
19:40:59 <AnMaster> zzo38, as far as I know pdf isn't interactive in any way?
19:41:10 <AnMaster> well you can make links, so you can click on "see figure 4.2"
19:41:10 <zzo38> Also, document security settings is ignored unless told in command-line flags to be standards-compliant
19:41:13 <AnMaster> which is rather useful
19:41:29 <AnMaster> and also a way to jump back to where you were before following the link in many readers
19:42:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:42:14 <AnMaster> zzo38, all pdf readers except xpdf on linux has an option to ignore those, most ignore them by default
19:42:15 <zzo38> And each of three mouse-buttons different function, also depending on single-click/double-click, shift key held down or not, etc
19:42:16 <AnMaster> so nothing new there
19:42:21 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
19:42:35 <AnMaster> well, all I know about that is
19:43:01 <zzo38> And if you have links and a way to jump back like that, then also have, "b" to go back, and "k" to follow a fake link that points to the current location (so that you can navigate manually and then push "b" to go back)
19:43:02 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose someone knows why the Haskell logo is based on the bind operator. <-- i am pretty sure there was a contest. the previous one was a hodgepodge of lambdas and other symbols
19:43:24 <alise> pikhq: Unfortunately, it appears that there is no genie-mode.
19:43:59 <AnMaster> alise, what is the context?
19:44:14 <AnMaster> alise, everything is awfully slow on this wlan, so "check logs" is extremely unhelpful
19:44:17 <pikhq> alise: :(
19:44:31 <AnMaster> in fact everything but upload speed, very strange
19:44:31 <zzo38> AnMaster: There, is these things OK now in your opinion?
19:44:46 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos
19:44:46 <alise> AnMaster: things.
19:44:49 <alise> AnMaster: it's a language thing.
19:45:11 <AnMaster> zzo38, you said no interactive, do you include having clickable (or otherwise followable) links in that category?
19:45:33 <zzo38> AnMaster: No, followable internal links don't count as interactive in this case
19:45:43 <AnMaster> zzo38, right
19:45:59 <zzo38> (Left-click selects text or objects, left-double-click follows internal link, middle-click scrolls, right-click to drag to draw a zoom box)
19:46:14 <AnMaster> zzo38, I still suspect I will just continue to use evince, but your one sounds like a usable minimalistic alternative then
19:46:15 <zzo38> (And right-double-click zooms out)
19:46:54 <oerjan> hm, the haskellwiki itself hasn't had the logo updated :|
19:47:00 <AnMaster> zzo38, for following internal links, having a browser like history for them is really helpful, especially when the link is to some page 400 pages away and then you need to go back
19:47:22 <zzo38> PDFs can also sometimes send a message to a server by internet every time you view it, my PDF viewer also would not do such a thing unless you enable standards-compliant mode
19:47:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, I really like that feature of okular
19:47:39 <AnMaster> evince doesn't have it
19:47:42 <AnMaster> afaik
19:47:46 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, you push "b" to go back, that is the history! And then, possibly, "B" for list of history.
19:47:50 <AnMaster> right
19:48:19 <alise> where's ais523 when you need him
19:49:15 <AnMaster> zzo38, since the pdfs I read mostly fall into the category of standards with 400+ pages and lots of cross references... it is extremely useful
19:50:47 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, of course, that is why, that you would be able to use these kind of function, and PDF bookmarks menu, for these purpose.
19:50:59 <alise> pikhq: WTF? TAB in Fundamental mode is sometimes inserting spaces.
19:51:04 <alise> tab-width is 8
19:51:07 <alise> indent-tabs-mode is t
19:51:44 <AnMaster> alise, and what is indention width
19:51:52 <alise> no such thing in fundamental
19:51:54 <alise> *indentation, also.
19:51:57 <AnMaster> ah
19:52:05 <alise> which is why i'm so confused
19:53:45 <AnMaster> hm
19:53:59 <AnMaster> alise, maybe you misunderstood and there is such a thing in that mode?
19:54:16 <AnMaster> alise, or does it insert them up to the next tab stop?
19:54:22 <AnMaster> with that being 8?
19:54:41 <AnMaster> and is there any pattern behind when it happens?
19:54:45 <alise> Ctrl+V TAB even inserts 4 spcaes!
19:54:46 <alise> *spaces
19:54:47 <alise> WHAT.
19:54:54 <AnMaster> like, if there is something in the tabs before
19:54:55 <alise> at column 0
19:54:59 <AnMaster> like: abc<tab>
19:55:03 <alise> oh wait
19:55:05 <alise> ctrl+v doesn't do that heh
19:55:07 <AnMaster> alise, okay *that* is confusing
19:55:11 <alise> it's C-q
19:55:15 <alise> which works
19:55:16 <alise> C-q TAB works
19:55:20 <alise> TAB in col 0 inserts 4 spaces
19:55:47 <AnMaster> hm C-v is scroll-up
20:09:27 <alise> pikhq: Bleh, This Is Hard.
20:10:28 <zzo38> Then, change the setting if you do not like it like that
20:11:12 <alise> zzo38: I can't figure out why it's doing it.
20:12:37 <alise> pikhq: You could try mupdf.
20:12:42 <alise> http://mupdf.com/
20:12:59 <alise> It may not be able to search for text, but by golly, it's the most precise and accurate PDF rendering you'll find!
20:13:05 <alise> And it /is/ entirely keyboard-based. :P
20:15:33 -!- alise_ has joined.
20:15:34 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:15:38 <alise_> It ... froze ...
20:15:39 -!- alise_ has changed nick to alise.
20:15:43 <alise> MuPDF was so accurate it froze my system.
20:16:22 <oerjan> it brought the system down to 0 entropy, thus 0 kelvin
20:17:41 * alise has developed an Evil Plan
20:17:52 <alise> a language more naziesque than agda *and* eiffel
20:18:09 <oerjan> design by contract proofs
20:18:13 <alise> xD
20:18:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I can see why Eiffel -> Nazi, but why Agda?
20:19:13 <alise> Erm.
20:19:16 <alise> a language more naziesque than ada *and* eiffel
20:19:23 <alise> Sorry. :P
20:20:41 <oerjan> how boring
20:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So a type system that would make God himself cry?
20:20:52 <alise> oerjan: well, Ada and Eiffel are more naziesque than Agda
20:20:57 <alise> so the statement is stronger
20:21:14 <alise> (a > b /\ a > c) = (a > max(b,c)) ofc.
20:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Only if Ada is Nazier than Eiffel.
20:22:10 <alise> True.
20:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> How about values start in a type, and *stay* there?
20:23:32 <alise> xD
20:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> None of this "Char → Int" stuff!
20:23:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Functions are all a->a!
20:23:51 <oerjan> (a > b /\ a > c) = (a > b \/ c)
20:23:56 * oerjan cackles evilly
20:24:23 <oerjan> hm wait that is true for >=, not >
20:24:45 <oerjan> because technically max(b,c) itself could be > b and > c
20:25:21 <oerjan> erm, b \/ c
20:25:43 <oerjan> max might imply it's one of them
20:26:16 <alise> max(a,b) is definitely either a or b :P
20:26:44 <oerjan> if it exists
20:27:23 <oerjan> well, nazi orders _should_ be total, come to think of it
20:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So, which is Nazier? Ada or Eiffel?
20:27:55 <alise> Ada
20:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Examples of Nazi typing?
20:30:10 <alise> procedure Maximum(A : Integer, B : Integer) -> Integer;
20:30:10 <AnMaster> <alise> MuPDF was so accurate it froze my system. <-- um, how?
20:30:10 <alise> result Result;
20:30:10 <alise> does;
20:30:10 <alise> if A > B;
20:30:10 <alise> Result := A;
20:30:10 <alise> else; --{ Thus B > A }
20:30:12 <alise> Result := B;
20:30:14 <alise> end if;
20:30:16 <alise> end Maximum;
20:30:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Note that return parameters can have "tags".
20:30:25 <AnMaster> alise, swap trash or 100% cpu resources? Or kernel bug
20:30:30 <alise> For instance, the functions that do console IO will return with the tag [Performs_IO].
20:30:33 <AnMaster> or X freezing?
20:30:35 <alise> All functions that use them will also have this tag.
20:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, ah, I remember that from my Pascal days.
20:30:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Stupid as hell.
20:30:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No...
20:30:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'm inventing this.
20:31:02 <alise> You can call a function with the expectation that it will not perform console IO because it does not have the [Performs_IO] tag.
20:31:05 <alise> Tada!
20:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean the need for a named variable for return values.
20:31:43 <AnMaster> alise, that code looks very much like a cross between pascal and VHDL to me
20:31:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also the :=
20:32:05 <AnMaster> but it would call it function not procedure
20:32:14 <AnMaster> since procedure is a function returning nothing
20:32:16 <AnMaster> in pascal
20:32:31 * Phantom_Hoover had an idea for a weird module system with only "export".
20:32:40 * alise tries to think of a suitably ludicrous contract for Maximum
20:32:43 * alise is unable to think of one
20:32:43 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm? what's so strange with that
20:32:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you can use fully qualified name, in fact you do in many module systems
20:33:06 <alise> ha, I made an error in my comments!
20:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Because there's no statement to import a module.
20:33:35 <Phantom_Hoover> If you want to have the stuff in foo in bar, you need to but "export to bar" in foo.
20:33:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, there isn't in erlang either. You can import functions from modules, meaning you use bar() instead of foo:bar()
20:33:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but that is it
20:34:04 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, you misunderstand me.
20:34:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh like C++ "friend" stuff
20:34:47 * Phantom_Hoover carefully avoids C++
20:35:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so do I to the extent that it is possible
20:35:14 <AnMaster> university and so on
20:35:34 <AnMaster> there was some course using C++ this autumn iirc
20:35:56 <AnMaster> been C and python so far. Oh and VHDL and SQL but those are not general purpose
20:39:14 <alise> I present to you: Naked Zit (NaZi for short), the programming language.
20:39:14 <alise> http://sprunge.us/KXHO
20:39:22 <alise> Maximum, Minimum, and a relation between the two.
20:39:48 <alise> Note: The three spaces used for indentation are SOLELY for show; real code is always indented with tabs, the most reliable indentation character. Editors will display these as three spaces.
20:40:06 <alise> There is an error in this code.
20:40:08 <alise> Can you spot it?
20:40:19 <AnMaster> alise, that editors would display it as 3 spaces
20:40:29 <AnMaster> it could be anything :P
20:40:37 <AnMaster> personally I prefer to have it equal 4
20:40:55 <alise> No, it is specified in the standard.
20:41:12 <alise> Now find the real error.
20:41:40 <alise> This is made especially easy by NaZi's clear syntax and precise specification.
20:41:48 <AnMaster> alise, tl;dr
20:42:08 <alise> AnMaster: If you can't handle Maximum and Minimum, how will you *ever* handle writing enterprise-grade systems in it?!
20:42:29 <alise> Sorry, "it" is not clear in the last sentence I said. I hereby replace "it" with "NaZi".
20:42:32 <alise> Compiler error.
20:42:36 <alise> Syntactical style not obeyed.
20:42:40 <AnMaster> alise, tl;dr because Idon
20:42:50 <AnMaster> I don't plan to figure out that language
20:42:56 <AnMaster> and I'm half asleep anyway
20:43:03 <AnMaster> and finally I'm busy doing other stuff on the side
20:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do you need to declare A and B twice?
20:43:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The second time is in the contract.
20:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> What is the contract for?
20:43:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Which is abstract behaviour disconnected from the implementation.
20:44:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The contract specifies behaviour about the function. It is checked every time the function is called in debug mode.
20:44:04 <alise> This is standard from Eiffel.
20:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> But... why do you need to say that A and B are integers *twice*?
20:44:40 <AnMaster> why not just prove that contract statically?
20:44:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: There are two A and Bs.
20:45:02 <alise> The A and B in the contract specify abstract variables, like a "for all" quantification.
20:45:12 <alise> The A and B in the procedure declaration represent the specific A and B passed to the call.
20:45:34 <alise> Actually, that's flawed, but who cares, it's nazi.
20:45:38 <alise> Spotted the error yet?!
20:46:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it states Maximum /= Minimum.
20:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> That is obviously false.
20:46:30 <alise> It does not state that.
20:46:37 <alise> Procedures are not values, and /= is not a defined relation.
20:47:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Maximum(A, B) =/= Minimum(A, B) is obviously false, then
20:47:05 <alise> Prove it.
20:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Maximum(3, 3) = Minimum(3, 3)
20:48:22 <alise> You win a prize! That prize is the corrected version made before I even asked: http://sprunge.us/GPWD
20:48:32 <alise> This includes a never-seen-before language feature: contract conditions!
20:48:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, make it require a proof of the contract.
20:49:02 <Phantom_Hoover> An *explicit* proof
20:49:10 <alise> No! You might prove the WRONG THING.
20:49:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Prove that you prove the right thing, then.
20:50:01 <alise> NO
20:50:20 <alise> Coqasians, noted for their white skin, are EVIL INCARNATE.
20:50:23 <alise> (I maed pun)
20:50:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, no, none of those *POLYMORPHIC* things!
20:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Dependent types are obviously the work of the allies!
20:51:18 <alise> 05:21:50 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: alise has this thing
20:51:19 <alise> 05:21:56 <augur> jokes about "monad" and "nomad"
20:51:21 <alise> */prog/ has this thing
20:51:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Absolutely. No polymorphism.
20:51:33 <alise> They can't even handle tagged types.
20:51:44 <augur> alise: */prog/?
20:51:44 <Phantom_Hoover> We'll make our OWN proof checker!
20:53:08 <alise> augur: nomad is /prog/'s "joke", not mine
20:53:18 <augur> i dont know what /prog/ is
20:53:23 <augur> but it might as well be your joke
20:53:26 <augur> here at least
20:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> 4chan?
20:53:34 <alise> http://dis.4chan.org/prog/; I recommend not visiting, since it's turned to complete and utter shit.
20:53:36 <augur> aha
20:53:40 <augur> i wont be visiting at all
20:53:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, almost; a text board.
20:55:24 <alise> Maybe I should write a Roguelike.
20:55:51 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Elite: the Roguelike!
20:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It must be done!
20:56:21 <alise> No!
20:56:33 <alise> Space Invaders: The Roguelike
20:56:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Elite!
20:57:52 <alise> Elite Invaders!
20:58:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's easy enough.
20:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone's probably done it in Oolite by now.
20:59:12 <alise> Oolite?
20:59:20 <alise> Oh, some souped-up Elite clone.
20:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
21:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> For some reason my GPU hangs when I try to play it since I installed Lucid..
21:02:05 <alise> "Eben Moglen on LLVM: "Nobody has ever tried before, to build a multi-platform C compiler solely in order to undermine freedom"
21:02:09 <alise> *freedom.
21:02:13 <alise> Extra ".
21:02:26 <alise> Hahahahahaha.
21:02:48 <Phantom_Hoover> LLVM is free, isn't it?
21:02:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I suggest you use Alise Linux instead!
21:02:51 <alise> *alise
21:02:59 <alise> Which is my ridiculous name for Arch + my desktop stuff.
21:03:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's BSD! EVIL EVIL BSD.
21:03:14 <alise> They use a DEMON as their logo.
21:03:15 <alise> GPL 4eva
21:03:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a driver issue, so I suspect getting a new computer is the best course of action.
21:04:12 <alise> ARCH HAS ALL THE DRIVERS
21:04:15 <alise> What card?
21:04:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I do not have a card.
21:04:39 <alise> Onboard video?
21:04:43 <alise> What brand? Intel?
21:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a bit of cardboard with some lines and an Intel logo drawn on it stuck to my motherboard.
21:04:57 <alise> Intel video on Arch is pretty snazzy here...
21:06:06 <Phantom_Hoover> It only actually crashes in some circumstances.
21:06:45 <AnMaster> <alise> "Eben Moglen on LLVM: "Nobody has ever tried before, to build a multi-platform C compiler solely in order to undermine freedom"
21:06:49 <AnMaster> is that a joke?
21:06:52 <alise> AnMaster: nope.
21:06:52 <AnMaster> and who is that guy
21:07:01 <alise> Software Freedom Law Centre guy, FSF lawyer
21:07:03 <AnMaster> a retard obviously, unless I missed something HUGE
21:07:07 <alise> you didn't
21:07:21 <alise> he thinks Steve Jobs piling money into LLVM is evil because it's to stop the gpl
21:07:23 <alise> and thus is against freedom
21:07:31 <AnMaster> alise, LLVM is BSD right?
21:07:34 <AnMaster> BSD-2?
21:07:38 <alise> yeah
21:07:42 <alise> again, FSF guy
21:07:52 <alise> even rms isn't that crazy :)
21:08:39 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:09:04 <AnMaster> well, people could use it and not give back to the community. While there are some good points in that, you have to see both sides of it. However it should be up to each author if he wants other to be able to build stuff on his code without opening it up to everyone.
21:09:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to come down to patents...
21:09:19 <AnMaster> so yeah he is retarded
21:09:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm...
21:09:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no
21:09:44 <AnMaster> but yeah I don't see issues with GPL, nor with BSD-2
21:09:46 <alise> from another time:
21:09:47 <alise> "Moglen explained how Apple’s use of LLVM as an alternative compiler to the GCC represented a threat to the movement. If I followed correctly, this is due to the fact that LLVM has a more permissive, “BSD-style” license."
21:10:03 <AnMaster> depeneds on what project and what you want others to be able to do with your code
21:10:26 <AnMaster> alise, yes that one makes no sense
21:10:26 * Phantom_Hoover is getting that from reddit comments and the guy's speech
21:17:56 <zzo38> I don't use BSD-style licenses in my own programs (unless I am making modifications of a program that is already BSD-licensed). I mostly prefer GNU GPL, but for some programs I just make it public domain.
21:20:27 <Gregor> It's not the worst point ever, I strongly suspect that the GPL is waaaaay up there in the reasons why Apple is so interested in clang and LLVM. Still, everybody else benefits too, so who cares :P
21:20:30 <zzo38> Is there any command in TeX to tell it to ignore the outerness of commands?
21:20:40 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:20:52 <alise> The ... outerness?
21:20:56 <alise> Gregor: GPL3, yes; they were fine with GPL2.
21:21:08 <alise> Gregor: They started pouring more and more money into LLVM when gcc switched to GPLv3, which Apple wouldn't bundle.
21:21:11 <zzo38> alise: Like, if a word is defined with \outer
21:21:15 <alise> But yeah, calling LLVM a /thread to freedom/ is just... what.
21:22:13 <AnMaster> alise, threat*
21:22:22 <AnMaster> alise, thread to freedom sounds like it means the opposite
21:22:30 <alise> xD
21:22:50 * alise tries to decide between two Arch font rendering packages.
21:23:07 <AnMaster> alise, it also sounds like a metaphor that was initially delivered way past it's breaking point
21:23:21 <alise> Metaphors are like babies ... you deliver them
21:23:29 <Gregor> Then you eat them.
21:23:39 <alise> Then you get carried away with them.
21:23:54 <AnMaster> alise, indeed I extended that metaphor of "extending a metaphor past it's breaking point" past it's breaking point
21:24:01 <Gregor> Incidentally, alise, that was a simile.
21:24:24 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
21:24:30 <AnMaster> Gregor, was that a meta joke?
21:24:46 <alise> Gregor: Similies are a new dawn.
21:24:57 * Gregor shakes his fist :P
21:24:57 <alise> They are the brightest girder in the pile of tacks.
21:25:08 <alise> Welp, looks like I've finally gone insane
21:25:12 <Gregor> Metaphors are like babies, similes are a new dawn.
21:25:20 -!- alise_ has joined.
21:25:27 <alise> I don't know what you're saying / but this has to rhyme with scorn.
21:25:35 <zzo38> WE ARE ALL INSANITY!
21:25:51 <Gregor> Well put.
21:25:55 <zzo38> (Do not worry, it is good things in some contexts, i.e.)
21:25:56 <AnMaster> <alise> Gregor: Similies are a new dawn. <-- wait, is that a reference to that auto-tuned carl sagan thingy?
21:26:00 * pikhq is impressed with mupdf already
21:26:12 <alise> We are insanity! I got all my esolangers with me!
21:26:15 <alise> pikhq: But it can't even search!
21:26:15 <Gregor> mupdf: PDFs for muppets.
21:26:18 -!- alise_ has quit (Client Quit).
21:26:19 <AnMaster> or am I just too paranoid...
21:26:24 <alise> AnMaster: No.
21:26:25 <pikhq> alise: Nor can xpdf. :P
21:26:25 <alise> Paranoid.
21:26:28 <alise> pikhq: Really?
21:26:32 <AnMaster> alise, right
21:26:33 <pikhq> Really.
21:26:39 <alise> pikhq: MuPDF is primarily designed for accurate reproduction of the printed result, anyway.
21:26:50 <AnMaster> alise, besides now I got an urge to listen for it, but I really want to play nwn for a bit. argh
21:26:53 * pikhq shall check it out
21:27:30 <alise> pikhq: Check what out?
21:28:11 <zzo38> Instead of using \outer I just changed yesweb so that any initializations like \newcount and so on go on a like with \init before \start (the "\in" at the beginning is significant, due to how yesweb works)
21:28:15 <pikhq> alise: MuPDF's actual PDF rendering.
21:28:50 <AnMaster> alise, that video... it seems that guy made more auto tuned ones from cosoms
21:28:56 <AnMaster> at least based on google search
21:29:07 <AnMaster> I have yet to check that other one out
21:29:21 <alise> pikhq: It calculates to a precision of fractions of a pixel.
21:29:31 <alise> pikhq: Especially text metrics:
21:29:32 <alise> "The renderer in MuPDF is tailored for high quality anti-aliased graphics. It renders text with metrics and spacing accurate to within fractions of a pixel for the highest fidelity in reproducing the look of a printed page on screen."
21:29:53 <alise> Unfortunately, its UI is... lacking.
21:30:12 <alise> brb, testing something
21:30:22 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:30:35 -!- alise has joined.
21:30:51 <alise> Let's see if my eyes can adjust to this particular blend of subpixel antialiasing.
21:31:08 <alise> Because dammit, I need higher fidelity fonts.
21:31:29 <pikhq> alise: I'm actually not minding its UI, except for lack of features.
21:31:37 <alise> Scrolling is... painful.
21:31:42 <zzo38> (In the part before \start, the "n" is a comment character and \i is defined to do nothing)
21:31:46 <alise> pikhq: The tragedy of Libertine and Biolinium is that freetype can't fucking render them properly!
21:31:51 <alise> With any settings!
21:32:02 <pikhq> alise: I've mostly used Libertine in TeX for that reason.
21:32:28 <pikhq> alise: BTW, MuPDF also offers a *library*.
21:33:09 <alise> Yes, it does.
21:33:22 <alise> I don't think it'll be significantly easier to use than poppler, however, and the fidelity is mostly a pedantic conern.
21:33:31 <alise> Aaargh freetype doesn't render "fi" as a ligature
21:35:48 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:36:01 -!- alise has joined.
21:36:02 <zzo38> "fi" should not be rendered as a ligature in monospace text. (2600 does render "fi" as a ligature even in monospaced text, and that is a bad idea.)
21:36:09 <alise> It's not monospaced text.
21:36:17 <alise> 2600? The magazine?
21:36:22 <zzo38> alise: Yes.
21:36:29 <alise> pikhq: Okay, how come freetype does "Qu" but not "fi"?
21:36:29 <zzo38> I do mean the magazine.
21:36:39 <alise> Well, it sort of does "fi". Sort of.
21:37:07 <alise> pikhq: BTW, have you ever tried ROX-Filer?
21:37:17 <alise> pikhq: It's like file managers, done right. In fact, it's not like that, it IS that.
21:38:18 <zzo38> alise: No, my idea for file manager is more better (at least in my opinion)
21:38:29 <zzo38> Let's see what kind of spells/powers my D&D character has:
21:39:05 <zzo38> Prestidigitation; Read Magic; Enlarge Person; Silent Image; Comprehend Languages; Summon Spider I; Locate Object; Hold Portal; Expeditious Retreat; Remove Hand; Object Mirrored;
21:39:30 <zzo38> Summon Rope of Spidersilk: Azore's Speaking Tome; Mirror Surface; Create Water; Amanuensis; Stick;
21:40:08 <alise> zzo38: Well, I wasn't referring to your opinion of file managers; I was referring to mine.
21:40:22 <alise> I think your idea is worse, at least for my usage.
21:41:05 <zzo38> Detect Psionics; Inertial Armor; My Light; Far Hand; Vigor; Touch of Health; Control Sound; Concealing Amorpha; Tongues; Levitate; Dispel Psionics; Detect Hostile Intent; Mass Missive; Control Light; Trace Teleport; Dimension Door; Major Creation; Object Reading; Time Hop; Make Food, Restore Extremity; Eidetic Lock; .....
21:41:16 <zzo38> alise: OK, that can be your opinion, is OK
21:42:28 <zzo38> Which spells/powers do you dislike?
21:42:32 <alise> pikhq: urxvt sucks at font spacing.
21:44:50 <alise> I hereby recommend uxterm in its place ...
21:47:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
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21:53:39 <alise> [[One expression I sometimes hear in motion pictures is the following: "I'm screwed". The character will pronounce these words when he suddenly realizes some problem that affects him cannot be solved. I looked in wiktionary.org for the verb to screw and the two definitions (acepciones in Spanish) closer in sense to what I think the verb means in the context of the above said expression are 2 and 3.
21:53:39 <alise> I'm almost certain it is a very rude expression. And wiktionary def.2 seems to confirm this. But I do now understand quite well def.3, especially when it says "screw follows fuck". However, I just have read a post in a very serious computer forum where somebody titles his post "Color prompt screws bash". I do not think the moderators there would allow it if it had sexual connotations.]]
21:53:49 <alise> Funniest thing I've read all day ^
21:54:17 <coppro> hahaha
21:54:53 <coppro> (President Skroob is totally a pun)
21:56:48 -!- fizzie has joined.
21:57:47 <oerjan> fizzie: there appears to be a fungot shortage
21:58:08 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, we lost them electricities for about two hours.
21:59:11 <fizzie> (Sometimes I have trouble believing this is a city.)
21:59:50 <oerjan> there was apparently a blackout in trondheim the other day. not here though.
22:00:25 <fizzie> It was a pretty localized break, something like ten times 5 city blocks (it's a bit hard to be sure, this is not a very grid-like layout).
22:00:33 <oerjan> (it affected the center of town, including the main hospital)
22:01:08 <fizzie> There was a reasonably strong storm here; we of course walked right through the rain and lightning, since we were at a (graduation) party of two friends from the university, and had to get home.
22:01:48 <fizzie> Hmm, the fungot laptop/server hybrid isn't speaking to me.
22:01:56 <oerjan> well then, obviously the lightning used up all the electricity.
22:02:16 <fizzie> I was in the room not long ago, and the GRUB boot menu was showing up okay.
22:02:31 <fizzie> There were a dozen kernels to pick from, though, and I have no clue whether I selected the right one. Possibly not.
22:03:04 <oerjan> sounds like an idea for steganography
22:03:34 <benuphoenix> usually, I pick the newest one
22:04:56 <fizzie> They all had the same version, just different suffixes related to different adventurous voyages in virtualization-land.
22:05:03 <benuphoenix> steganography? find the hidden message: asdfghjkl
22:05:24 <oerjan> ah.
22:05:25 <fizzie> The one I picked (the highlighted one, I think it's with grub's savedefault so it should be good) apparently wasn't the right one, based on a kernel panic it had gotten into.
22:05:33 <fizzie> Perhaps this one will fare better.
22:05:45 <fizzie> At least it answers to SSH, which is a good sign.
22:05:54 <fizzie> (That system is in a serious need of cleaning up.)
22:06:23 <benuphoenix> dont use xen or uml kernels
22:07:11 <fizzie> It used to run Xen, but they completely dropped support for non-PAE processors, and that thing has the 1.5 GHz single Pentium M model that doesn't do PAE at all.
22:07:24 <fizzie> UML I've ran elsewhere, but not on that thing.
22:07:40 <fizzie> Currently it was a choice between kernels with openvz, vserver, or both, in the name.
22:07:48 <fizzie> (Apparently "both" was a working alternative.)
22:08:34 <oerjan> umlpenvxenver
22:09:01 <benuphoenix> what happened to vmlinuz?
22:09:51 <alise> $ mupdf libertine.pdf
22:09:51 <alise> detected cpu features: mmx mmxext sse sse2
22:09:51 <alise> ximage: mode 24/32 00ff0000 0000ff00 000000ff (16,8,0) lsb <swap>
22:09:51 <alise> ximage: ARGB8888 to BGRA8888
22:09:51 <alise> ximage: XShmPutImage
22:09:58 <alise> pikhq: World's most advanced PDF renderer.
22:10:12 <pikhq> alise: Hah.
22:11:20 <oerjan> !haskell take 100$List.nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
22:11:34 <EgoBot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,103,107,109,113,127,131,137,139,149,151,157,163,167,173,179,181,191,193,197,199,211,223,227,229,233,239,241,251,257,263,269,271,277,281,283,293,307,311,313,317,331,337,347,349,353,359,367,373,379,383,389,397,401,409,419,421,431,433,439,443,449,457,461,463,467,479,487,491,499,503,509,521,523,541]
22:14:42 <alise> pikhq: So, do you think I should write my PDF reader using MuPDF?
22:14:51 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin').
22:14:53 -!- fizzie has joined.
22:14:55 <pikhq> alise: Sure.
22:15:00 <alise> "Quit" looks so elegant in this font.
22:15:11 <fizzie> Also those reverses, I really need to fix 'em.
22:15:34 -!- fungot has joined.
22:15:38 <alise> pikhq:
22:15:42 <alise> http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/mupdf/
22:15:45 <alise> http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/apps/
22:15:50 <alise> Worlds most advanced PDF viewer's C code.
22:16:23 <alise> http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/fitz/ Some geometry thing it uses.
22:16:28 <alise> http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/draw/ Drawing library...
22:16:47 <alise> Whole thing: http://mupdf.com/repos/mupdf/
22:17:05 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:18:12 <benuphoenix> how does that haskell line work? i'd love to try in it c
22:18:36 <benuphoenix> s/in it/it in/
22:19:24 <alise> Complicatedly.
22:20:38 <oerjan> (((>1).).gcd) is the same as \x y -> (x `gcd` y) > 1 , it's a test for whether two numbers have a common prime factor
22:21:14 <oerjan> it's not particularly efficient, just short
22:21:32 <oerjan> (especially since x will always be a prime in this program)
22:22:39 <oerjan> nubBy goes through the infinite list [2..] of all integers >= 2, throwing way all that have common factors with previous remaining elements
22:22:47 <oerjan> *away
22:24:05 <oerjan> so it's a form of eratosthenes sieve
22:24:10 <oerjan> *'s
22:24:37 <benuphoenix> i see
22:25:58 <benuphoenix> my programs just use the function for generating primes
22:26:45 <alise> what?
22:27:03 <oerjan> that function probably uses such a sieve underneath, if it gives primes by number
22:27:41 <benuphoenix> i for got what c header file it was in
22:28:32 <oerjan> (i'm not aware of any way of finding the nth prime without essentially testing all previous ones. although i might just not have heard of it.)
22:28:59 <oerjan> s/testing/going through/
22:29:09 <benuphoenix> i'm referring to whatever the isprime() is called
22:29:15 <alise> benuphoenix: well that's cheating.
22:29:17 <oerjan> oh that
22:29:47 <oerjan> isprime() is less efficient than a sieve if you want to list all
22:29:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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22:30:18 <oerjan> (it duplicates work. well i guess it could use a list of primes internally to shortcut some)
22:30:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Duplicates!
22:32:08 <Sgeo> Someone pinged me?
22:32:16 <coppro> pong
22:32:39 <oerjan> (don't use gcd either, use mod)
22:33:15 <coppro> yep, sieving is fast
22:33:23 <oerjan> !haskell take 100$List.nubBy(((<1).).flip mod)[2..]
22:33:24 <EgoBot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,103,107,109,113,127,131,137,139,149,151,157,163,167,173,179,181,191,193,197,199,211,223,227,229,233,239,241,251,257,263,269,271,277,281,283,293,307,311,313,317,331,337,347,349,353,359,367,373,379,383,389,397,401,409,419,421,431,433,439,443,449,457,461,463,467,479,487,491,499,503,509,521,523,541]
22:34:00 <oerjan> (the speedup here is probably not noticable though)
22:34:59 <Sgeo> alise, when I do the LargePositiveInteger thing, I get 0
22:35:19 <oerjan> in principle one shouldn't use a linked list either, but an array for fast looping
22:35:28 <zzo38> Is that a bit strange? c+=first_col*!!(!(c=(c+1)%(first_col+num_cols)) && r++);
22:35:33 <Sgeo> (LargePositiveInteger new: 3) printit -> 0
22:35:48 <zzo38> Is it even valid in C without undefined behavior?
22:36:00 <alise> Sgeo: Erm, yeah, I pasted a long snippet.
22:36:20 <oerjan> hm two assignments to c
22:36:30 <alise> zzo38: that's not defined
22:36:30 <alise> afaik
22:36:40 <alise> Sgeo:
22:36:41 <alise> 10:23:25 <alise> b := a positive ifTrue: [LargePositiveInteger new: 4] ifFalse: [LargeNegativeInteger new: 4].
22:36:41 <alise> 10:23:30 <alise> b replaceFrom: 1 to: 4 with: a startingAt: 1.
22:36:43 <alise> both lines are important
22:37:00 <alise> s/4/a digitLength/ to get something more general.
22:37:08 <alise> */g
22:37:19 <pikhq> alise: Why do UIs suck so hard?
22:37:48 <alise> pikhq: Because. What UI is specifically giving you crap?
22:38:13 <pikhq> alise: Just a general sentiment is all.
22:38:36 <oerjan> does the && give a sequence point? i'm not a C expert but _maybe_ it's well-defined in that case?
22:38:36 <zzo38> alise: O, it is not defined? Because of both assignment to |c| both at once? OK
22:38:49 <zzo38> oerjan: I think the && gives a sequence point
22:39:13 <alise> zzo38: i'd suggest changing it anyway :D
22:39:17 <alise> pikhq: how's MuPDF?
22:39:20 <zzo38> alise: Yes, that is what I am doing
22:39:24 <pikhq> alise: Nice rendering.
22:39:32 <pikhq> Hardly any features.
22:39:35 <pikhq> Better than xpdf.
22:39:54 <zzo38> It is now easier: if(!(c=(c+1)%(first_col+num_cols)) && r++) c=first_col;
22:41:34 <alise> pikhq: But not so good scrolling/zooming/etc.
22:41:48 <zzo38> pikhq: I have all of my own idea, instead, which is differently, but that is OK
22:43:00 <pikhq> alise: True.
22:46:36 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:47:46 <alise> zzo38: We know. :P
22:51:29 -!- gm|lap has joined.
22:51:35 <alise> Proposal: Interrobang as the Ligature for "?!" and "!?"
22:51:44 <alise> Imagine that in an OpenType font. Instant interrobangs!
22:52:02 <alise> Or exclagates, in the case of "!?".
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23:19:21 <Sgeo> exclagates?
23:21:48 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:29:44 <alise> Yes.
23:29:51 <alise> Interrobang = Interrogate + bang.
23:29:56 <alise> Exclagate = Exclamation + interrogate.
23:31:37 <Gregor> But that means if I exclagate you I don't bang you at all.
23:31:40 <Gregor> Where's the fun in that?
23:37:47 * Sgeo is contemplating watching SGU when he finishes SGA
23:37:54 <alise> Gregor: Well, you'll stay on the right side of the law.
23:38:02 <Gregor> alise: Fair point.
23:38:07 <Sgeo> I do have a friend who likes SGU, so maybe it's not so bad
23:38:14 <Gregor> Sgeo: It's ... not great.
23:38:16 <alise> Sgeo: If the first two parts of Air are anything to go by, yes yes yes do. But get it in HD, it's filmed beautifully.
23:38:28 <alise> OTOH, Gregor has watched ... more than me, presumably.
23:38:33 <alise> coppro likes SGU.
23:38:41 <alise> but then I'm pretty sure coppro sat through the entirety of Voyager, so YMMV
23:38:46 <Gregor> I've watched all that have been released thusfar.
23:39:00 <Gregor> It's progressively turning into a cheesy soap opera.
23:39:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:39:07 <Gregor> It had potential, but it's just getting more stupid by the episode.
23:39:08 <alise> Thusfar: Not TECHNICALLY a word!
23:39:20 <Sgeo> Although someone I hooked on the Stargate franchise doesn't like SGU
23:39:25 <Gregor> alise: Technically "not TECHNICALLY a word" is meaningless.
23:39:36 <Sgeo> Then again, he also didn't like seasons 9+10 of SG-1
23:39:41 <alise> Gregor: The "gurl zvffrq... gjvpr" plotline that coppro told me about sounded awfully cheesy.
23:39:53 <alise> Sgeo: When did that guy whose name I forget "transcend"?
23:40:05 <alise> I thought that was awfully, terribly cheesy, and missed him; he was a good character.
23:40:11 <Sgeo> alise, hm? Daniel Jackson ascended twice
23:40:21 <Gregor> alise: He came back in the next season :P
23:40:23 <Sgeo> Well, the second time, not quite, I think
23:40:27 <alise> Gregor: >_<
23:40:34 <alise> Well, at one point he disappeared and somebody replaced him.
23:40:38 <Gregor> alise: Pretend that season doesn't exist.
23:40:46 <alise> Done.
23:40:55 <Gregor> alise: The guy who replaced him is a Scientologist whose real name is more alien than his alien name :P
23:41:02 <alise> XD
23:41:08 <alise> Wow, "Corin Nemec".
23:41:09 <Sgeo> But then you don't get to see the many deaths of O'Neill!
23:41:37 * Sgeo double-checks his spelling
23:41:42 <alise> Gregor: I didn't even realise he was an alien. Apparently "alien" means "identical to human".
23:41:49 <alise> He doesn't even have forehead ridges!
23:41:57 <Gregor> alise: Alien in the sense that if you moved to the US, you'd be an alien. He's human.
23:42:07 <alise> Ohhhhhhhhh.
23:42:11 <Gregor> alise: Well, more alien than that, he's not from Earth :P
23:42:13 <alise> Well that makes much more sense XD
23:42:14 <Gregor> But he is human.
23:42:24 <Sgeo> Most aliens are human
23:42:30 <alise> I've always been uncomfortable with this humans-are-everywhere thing.
23:42:42 <Gregor> One of the reasons why Stargate: SG-1 was good is that the aliens looked human because they WERE human, and the truly alien aliens didn't look human.
23:42:46 <Gregor> SG:A ruined that.
23:42:52 <alise> Actually, the aliens-are-humanoid thing too. But that's to, you know, be practical to film.
23:42:54 <Gregor> Although it backpatched a cheesy explanation.
23:43:14 <alise> Jaffa cakes
23:43:17 <alise> LULZ
23:43:22 <alise> btw
23:43:22 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Teal'c.jpg
23:43:24 <alise> Teal'c smiling
23:43:27 <alise> be prepared to scream
23:43:36 <Gregor> Teal'c is not a vulcan :P
23:43:45 <alise> Yes, but he also never smiles
23:43:49 <alise> And NOW I KNOW WHY
23:44:01 <Gregor> Hahaha
23:44:07 <Sgeo> Gregor, what was SGA's explanation? Humans evolved similarly to the ancients? Are the humans in Pegasus not actually human, but decended from ancients, or...?
23:44:28 <Sgeo> alise, he tells jokes!
23:44:39 <alise> The problem with abandoning the "aliens are pretty similar to humans" thing is that... well, you can't really make a long-lasting TV series out of Solaris.
23:44:51 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka6tvlewO3c
23:44:55 <Gregor> Sgeo: Sapiens were seeded to evolve as they did by the ancients. The Wraith are half-human.
23:45:03 <Gregor> Sgeo: All very cheesy.
23:45:19 <Gregor> alise: See, but that's why SG-1 was good: It had an explanation that made sense, AND didn't require crazy costumes.
23:45:37 <alise> Gregor: But OTOH, humans are not very interesting aliens.
23:45:48 <pikhq> alise: And indeed, they aren't the interesting aliens.
23:45:52 <pikhq> alise: They're the slave race.
23:46:00 <alise> Star Trek, with its "fuck it, let's just make them humanoid" attitude, produces more interesting aliens.
23:46:02 <Gregor> But the goa'uld are, and they're parasites so they can be played by humans!
23:46:18 <alise> Yes... now try adding more aliens after you run out of plotlines.
23:46:24 <pikhq> The Asgard were also pretty awesome.
23:46:39 <alise> Don't get me wrong, I think Stargate is probably the most sci-fi of the sci-fi franchises out there.
23:46:40 <Gregor> pikhq: *BOOM*
23:47:01 <Sgeo> You know, I'd be pretty ticked by the Asuran replicators if they didn't say "most efficient form *that they knew*"
23:47:09 <alise> The Asgard were just Greys
23:47:10 <Sgeo> Gregor, there are still some out there
23:47:16 <pikhq> alise: Still awesome.
23:47:18 <alise> And Greys are NOT COOL
23:47:23 <Gregor> Sgeo: Shhhh, don't give away SG:A plots :P
23:47:28 <pikhq> alise: Norse! Greys!
23:47:40 <pikhq> Still, yeah. It's a concept that works well for about a reasonable show's length...
23:47:58 <alise> I have a stupid fucking GCSE English essay to be done by stupid fucking tomorrow demanded by my stupid fucking ex-teacher.
23:47:59 <alise> FML
23:48:01 <pikhq> Making another *show* of it requires, well, bizarre writing hacks.
23:48:12 <pikhq> (see: SGA, SGU)
23:48:36 <Sgeo> Everyone should watch SGA "Irresistible"
23:48:39 <alise> Of course a /true/ sci-fi series has an infinite budget by definition and can represent all these aliens.
23:48:39 <Gregor> SG:U could have had potential ... but they went all soap-opera.
23:48:49 <pikhq> alise: Farscape?
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23:48:56 <alise> Gregor: Sad to hear that; the one I watched was pretty cool.
23:49:13 <pikhq> Oh, wait, that had lots of humanoid aliens too.
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23:49:18 <alise> Pet peeve: Why is it that sci-fi writers, when trying to give something an exotic name, simply pick the least common letters in English and then add apostrophes?
23:49:24 <alise> I mean, come ON. It is not fucking hard to avoid that cliche.
23:49:36 <pikhq> Many sci-fi writers are completely unaware of linguistics.
23:49:53 <alise> If the aliens can pronounce sounds like ours, they can pronounce a regular-ish name; if they can't, you can't give them a name like that.
23:50:06 <alise> pikhq: But even the most idiotic sci-fi reader can see that it's a cliche!
23:50:10 <pikhq> Yes.
23:50:22 <pikhq> This, incidentally, is the thing that annoys me most about Niven.
23:50:58 <Sgeo> Maybe regular-ish sounds are reserved for non-names?
23:51:03 <pikhq> His alien names are random letters and apostrophes. (well, except when he opts for not-sucky names.)
23:51:09 <alise> Sgeo: Maybe no.
23:52:27 <pikhq> ("Chmeee" is a solidly meh name. Speaker-to-Animals is just somewhat interesting.)
23:53:25 <alise> I'd just invent a rudimentary alphabet and then specify the sounds, to be done as SFX.
23:54:31 <alise> pikhq: Fun fact: The first posted copyright-violation report was made by "Chuq Von Rospach", the first of June, 1986, on the posting of Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex", and it was even more self-righteous than the copyright defenders are today: http://groups.google.com/group/net.comics/msg/22a6091beb0762eb
23:54:50 <alise> "I also suggest
23:54:51 <alise> that the person involved contact Larry Niven with an apology, and see what
23:54:51 <alise> can be done to minimize the damage."
23:54:57 <alise> Also, earlier:
23:55:03 <alise> "by
23:55:07 <alise> leaving the copyright notices off you have possibly put the work into the
23:55:07 <alise> public domain and infringed on Niven's rights to potential future earnings." <-- LOL WUT
23:55:29 <Sgeo> Surely e means that some may mistake it for being in the public domain?
23:55:39 <alise> Npe.
23:55:41 <alise> *Nope.
23:56:20 <alise> > >This article is not in the puiblic domain.  Mr. Crist has commiteed a crime
23:56:20 <alise> > >by publishing it without permission.
23:56:20 <alise> I love how absolutely DISGUSTED they are.
23:56:20 <alise> "Again, I recommend seriously that all System Administrators find the
23:56:20 <alise> offending copy of this article and delete it from their systems. All people
23:56:21 <alise> who made copies of the story should destroy them."
23:56:52 <alise> wow
23:56:58 <alise> then he quotes the anarchist cookbook in his sig
23:57:05 <Sgeo> Surely that was before how widely understood it was that you can't really remove stuff from the Internet?
23:57:36 <alise> LOL
23:57:37 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
23:57:46 <alise> pikhq: Sorry, what was that about Farscape?
23:57:51 <alise> Sgeo: You could remove things from Usenet.
23:57:58 <alise> Sysadmins, remember.
23:58:11 <Sgeo> But someone would surely just post it again
23:58:34 <alise> Posts can be cancelled. etc.
23:59:02 <alise> Oh and another thing ... why can't "serious" sci-fi shows just use the word "fuck" instead of coming up with shitty alien words for it?
23:59:55 <pikhq> US prudishness.
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