←2010-08-08 2010-08-09 2010-08-10→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:19 <pikhq> "fuck" would be bleeped.
00:00:26 <alise> Wait ... even after 8/9 pm?
00:00:28 <pikhq> Yes.
00:00:31 <alise> ...
00:00:35 <alise> WHAT?!
00:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, they haven't got a watershed in the US IIRC
00:00:49 <alise> Wait ... didn't that show The Wire have a fuckton of profanity?
00:00:59 <pikhq> They had a fuckton of bleeps.
00:01:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> *****ton
00:01:10 <alise> Wow.
00:01:11 <oerjan> alise: the smeg i know
00:01:20 <alise> oerjan: The difference being that Red Dwarf was comedy. :P
00:01:29 <alise> pikhq: So ... uh ... how do you guys even ... television ... the?
00:01:45 <pikhq> The most bizarre thing being that this is also done on cable TV.
00:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> I seem to recall reading that it was partially due to the US having about 5 timezones, but that might be excuse-making.
00:01:55 <pikhq> ... Which has absolutely no such regulations at all.
00:02:40 <alise> pikhq: But ... why?
00:03:17 <Sgeo> SGA had a character say "ass" in front of a toddler. That caught me offguard
00:03:19 <pikhq> alise: Okay, imagine the oldest, most crotchety, conservative person you know.
00:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, the US is very conservative. That's what it comes down to.
00:03:28 <pikhq> These people vote in droves.
00:03:39 <pikhq> And complain in droves.
00:03:39 <alise> pikhq: But if there isn't a law for it for cable TV...
00:04:02 <pikhq> They file complaints like crazy to the cable companies and the networks.
00:04:12 <alise> Iiiii want to cryyyy
00:04:15 <pikhq> In short: our old folk are fucking noisy and irritating.
00:04:25 <alise> Why are you guys allowed to be the biggest superpower?
00:04:28 <alise> Except maybe China.
00:04:34 <pikhq> And so our television censors based on 1920s social mores.
00:04:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> I mean, on TV Tropes there are various references to films actively trying to avoid an NC-17 rating as if it would make it worthless, which is treated as normal.
00:05:04 <pikhq> If a film is rated NC-17 in the US, it basically will not be seen.
00:05:23 <Sgeo> You can have frontal nudity in a non-NC-17 movie
00:05:25 <Sgeo> iirc
00:05:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> Meanwhile an 18 rating is commonplace in the UK.
00:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, same with an 18.
00:05:43 <Phantom_Hoover_> You can get away with it in a PG, actually.
00:05:48 <pikhq> Not because it's been banned, but because almost no stores will carry it and no theatres will carry it.
00:05:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover_: ... *PG*.
00:06:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> pikhq, Manon de Sources. Arty.
00:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover_> And French.
00:06:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: Redundant.
00:06:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
00:06:39 <alise> pikhq: Yeah... typical film ratings here are 12A (basically PG), 15 and 18.
00:06:51 <alise> Any "serious" film will be 15 or 18, most likely.
00:06:52 <pikhq> Here, full frontal nudity will not make it NC-17 unless the crotchety old bastards on the rating panel feel it's too much.
00:07:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, U and PG are common, as well as plain 12.
00:07:23 <pikhq> alise: We have G, PG, PG-13, R, (effective censorship) NC-17
00:07:48 <alise> pikhq: You're fucking crazy! I'm crying!
00:07:53 <alise> Oh, so it isn't even 17+, it's 18+.
00:08:01 <pikhq> Correct.
00:08:05 <pikhq> R and NC-17 are *both* 18+.
00:08:06 <Phantom_Hoover> The BBFC system is something like Uc, U, PG, 12A, 12, 15, 18, R18.
00:08:07 <alise> What a stupid fucking name for 18+.
00:08:19 <alise> pikhq: But a 3-year-old can watch an R movie with a parent, right?
00:08:22 <pikhq> Yes.
00:08:25 <alise> Hmm.
00:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Madness.
00:08:27 <alise> I don't think that is true in the UK.
00:08:29 <pikhq> Same with NC-17, actually.
00:08:32 <alise> No.
00:08:35 <pikhq> IIRC
00:08:36 <alise> "No one 17 and under admitted"
00:08:39 <alise> Would seem to imply not.
00:08:41 <pikhq> Ah.
00:08:46 <alise> Shouldn't it be 21+, to reflect the USA's fucking crazy moral system?
00:08:50 <alise> R- Restricted (1968–present)
00:08:50 <alise> Under 17 requires accompanying by a parent or adult guardian
00:08:50 <alise> NC-17- No One 17 and Under Admitted (1990–present)
00:08:52 * Sgeo did not like being forced to see R movies
00:08:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, 12A is the only one where an adult changes things.
00:09:00 <pikhq> Moot point though, because no film is released NC-17.
00:09:02 <Sgeo> Or, being forced anywhere, for that matte
00:09:04 <Sgeo> *matter
00:09:14 <alise> pikhq: Apart from porn?
00:09:31 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, so it goes G, R?
00:09:31 <pikhq> alise: No. Rating is not mandatory.
00:09:33 <pikhq> If a film *were* to be NC-17, it will instead opt for being unrated.
00:09:41 <alise> Ah.
00:09:48 <alise> Which will stop anyone from seeing it, right?
00:09:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Madness^2.
00:10:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You forgot PG, PG-13.
00:10:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, probably isn't mandatory like the BBFC.
00:10:12 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> The BBFC system is something like Uc, U, PG, 12A, 12, 15, 18, R18.
00:10:18 <alise> R18 is porn, isn't it?
00:10:21 <pikhq> The rating is entirely optional.
00:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, we don't have PG-13 in the UK, or I've never seen it.
00:10:25 <alise> (More or less.)
00:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes.
00:10:27 <pikhq> It's done by the MPAA.
00:10:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Eh? I thought you meant the US systems.
00:10:40 <alise> Went G, R.
00:10:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, right.
00:10:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you meant the BBFC comment.
00:11:13 <Phantom_Hoover> So, G, PG, PG-13, R.
00:11:25 <pikhq> Basically, G is the rating for something that even the most crazy "think of the children" type folk wouldn't be offended by.
00:11:44 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what Die Hard was rated as in the US
00:11:52 <pikhq> PG is vaguely serious stuff, but for the most part quite appropriate for children.
00:11:53 <alise> pikhq: Well, your system is saner in one way (that all the ratings that are actually used can be overriden by a parent)
00:11:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It's an 18 here, so...
00:11:56 <pikhq> PG-13 is that with cussing.
00:12:00 <Sgeo> How did Avatar: The Last Airbender get the TV equivalent of G?
00:12:12 <pikhq> Sgeo: TV ratings are different.
00:12:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Is Gc really a rating in the true sense?
00:12:22 <alise> Gc is exactly the same as G, just saying "hey, children will like this".
00:12:25 <pikhq> R is that with more violence and room for nudity.
00:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Uc? Well, not really. It was for completeness.
00:12:33 <alise> Sgeo: ...TV HAS RATINGS IN THE US???
00:12:41 <pikhq> alise: Entirely optional as well.
00:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it basically does here, if you count the watershed.
00:12:50 <pikhq> alise: And literally only exists as suggestions.
00:12:56 <alise> The only people who give ratings for TV in the UK are ... some TV guides.
00:13:15 <pikhq> alise: Ironically, we *still* have no cursing on TV.
00:13:18 <alise> I think the watershed should just be abolished and the main channels won't show hugely edgy stuff in the kinds of slots children etc. will be watching anyway.
00:13:24 <Sgeo> pikhq, "ass" isn't a curse?
00:13:29 <alise> Sgeo: ... No.
00:13:35 <alise> Neither is "damn" nor "hell".
00:13:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, does it matter all that much?
00:13:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, not really.
00:13:50 <pikhq> Sgeo: Ass will still get bleeped.
00:13:53 <alise> pikhq: ...
00:13:55 <alise> pikhq: You're joking.
00:14:00 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, FFS.
00:14:10 <Sgeo> Haven't watched much SG-1/SGA on the TV
00:14:16 <Sgeo> Just Hulu/YouTube
00:14:38 <pikhq> alise: As will "shit", "piss", "fuck", "cunt", "cocksucker", "motherfucker" and "tits".
00:14:39 <alise> pikhq: Okay, question: do the non-TV releases of shows have the cursing?
00:14:56 <alise> pikhq: I, too, understand references!
00:15:19 <alise> I cannot believe you can't say "tits" on US TV... hahahahahahaha you're crazy.
00:15:22 <pikhq> alise: ... I'm not even joking. I know I'm referring to a joke, but I'm not even joking.
00:15:23 <alise> Wait, can you say "cock" but not "cocksucker"?
00:15:40 <pikhq> Yes.
00:15:40 <alise> As in, "You are a person who sucks cocks" is okay but not "You are a cocksucker"?
00:15:43 <coppro> pikhq: really? that stuff gets bleeped out for you?
00:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, "motherfucker" comes above "fuck" in the BBC's List Of Forbidden Words.
00:15:54 <pikhq> coppro: Yes. The US is motherfucking insane.
00:16:21 <coppro> O_o
00:16:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, "motherfucker" comes above anything else in the List.
00:16:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Link me?
00:16:37 <alise> Also, in searching for it I found THIS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7949077.stm
00:16:50 <Gregor> Fuckety fuck.
00:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, it was anecdotal and in print.
00:16:52 <Gregor> Fuckety fuck!
00:16:53 <coppro> we have a watershed, it's not as strong afterwards as in the UK, but we certainly can hear swear words
00:16:55 <Gregor> Oh fucky fuck fuck fuck!
00:17:06 <pikhq> Our game ratings are *also* absurd.
00:17:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In what, the Sun? :-)
00:17:54 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, of course not. Possibly one of the Guardian's array of supplements.
00:18:11 <Phantom_Hoover> s/Guardian/Grauniad/
00:18:14 <pikhq> eC, E, E10
00:18:22 <pikhq> eC, E, E10+, T, M, AO.
00:18:35 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, doesn't seem *that* absurd.
00:18:48 <pikhq> "Early Childhood", "Everyone", "Everyone 10+", "Teen", "Mature" (17+), "Adult Only"
00:18:50 <alise> AO is reserved exclusively for Anarchy Online.
00:18:53 <Phantom_Hoover> In the UK they just extend the film ratings.
00:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Or some European system.
00:19:18 <alise> Yeah, we use the European system now.
00:19:29 <Sgeo> I think I uninstalled AO recently, to make space
00:19:36 <pikhq> The suggested ages being: 3-10, 6+, 10+, 13+, 17+, 18+.
00:19:41 <Sgeo> Only tried it once, remember nothing :(
00:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, where be the insanity?
00:19:53 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The ratings are *also* done by old crotchety bastards.
00:19:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Although 17+ and 18+ is ridiculously stupid.
00:20:27 <coppro> very few games have AO ratings because they're basically impossible to secure retailers for
00:20:51 <pikhq> Persona 3. CERO B, ESRB M.
00:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, ah.
00:20:54 <coppro> and /me hates retailers who won't sell T or M games to people underage laiming it's the law
00:20:56 <alise> pikhq: I've got to know: what kind of 18+ material exists in today's society that the average (18-n)-year-old can't stand?
00:21:14 <alise> I find it really hard to believe that the average 16, 17 year old hasn't Already Seen That Shit. Probably even 15-year-old.
00:21:25 <alise> (Rhetorical question, naturally.)
00:21:32 <pikhq> Yes, something you guys call "appropriate for 12+" is on our highest-effective-rating.
00:21:38 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: it's not to say they won't rate them AO - they have on occasion - but that the game manufacturers will then do everything to get them down
00:21:39 <pikhq> Erm. Sorry, that's Japan.
00:21:45 <pikhq> PEGI, 12+
00:21:55 <pikhq> Same rating meaning, at least.
00:22:11 <coppro> *claiming
00:22:31 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. Well, there's probably some stuff that'd make them lose their lunch...
00:22:41 <pikhq> But said stuff would do the same to the same person at 18+, so.
00:22:51 <alise> Precisely.
00:23:05 <Sgeo> Why do I always find myself orienting to a more conservative mindset in these matters? Intellectually, I agree with you all, but still, it feels.. weird, the idea of swearing not necessarily being something that needs to be shielded from kids
00:23:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Does the US have the weird habit of viewing sex as worse than violence?
00:23:21 <alise> Sgeo: Outside of the US, swearing is not considered weird to expose to kids.
00:23:24 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
00:23:42 <alise> I'm pretty sure nobody would object to a parent saying "Shit!" due to a minor injury.
00:24:00 <coppro> There is a mildly-valid slippery-slope argument, but... ugh
00:24:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: Dude, kids hear cursing. It's really not a big deal. Unless you're 60+ or a neocon.
00:24:17 <Sgeo> pikhq, intellectually I agree, but...
00:24:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OTOH, having something really offensive to say when you type an extra space in "rm -r * ~" is helpful.
00:24:27 <coppro> cursing is dumb anyways
00:24:28 <alise> Sgeo: Oh, get over your stupid US-based prejudices.
00:24:35 <coppro> (the notion of it, I mean)
00:24:43 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, ^
00:24:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: R is the first rating where nudity or sex can be depicted at all on film ratings.
00:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Gore etc?
00:25:18 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And this literally cannot be shown over the air.
00:25:21 <coppro> that's fine for teenagers
00:25:35 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, no, that's the point.
00:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Using it randomly leaves you with nothing to say when things go really badly wrong.
00:26:01 <pikhq> (and de facto can't be shown on cable TV)
00:26:02 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: no, I mean that's fine for teenagers in the US
00:26:17 <pikhq> alise: People do object to this.
00:26:24 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: the notion of a word to express strong discontent is fine
00:26:30 <alise> pikhq: Do object to?
00:26:34 <coppro> and it's why I don't swear often
00:26:44 <coppro> but the notion that certain words are inherently bad is ridiculous
00:26:46 <pikhq> alise: Cursing in front of a child. At all.
00:26:50 <alise> pikhq: Ah.
00:26:55 <alise> I swear a lot on the internet, barely ever in person.
00:27:04 <alise> In person they just seem ... unnerving, somehow.
00:27:08 <pikhq> I talk pretty much the same IRL as I do in person. So.
00:27:12 <Sgeo> I try to avoid swearing in public
00:27:14 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, "over the air" being broadcast terrestrially?
00:27:18 <Sgeo> pikhq, no kidding?
00:27:19 <alise> Like, off-hand swearing puts me off-guard.
00:27:19 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
00:27:27 <alise> Sgeo: no kidding what?
00:27:32 <pikhq> Apparently the word "fuck" will corrupt a child's mind for all eternity.
00:27:39 <pikhq> As will seeing a nipple.
00:27:39 <Sgeo> pikhq> I talk pretty much the same IRL as I do in person. So.
00:27:41 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
00:27:45 <alise> Sgeo: I'm pretty sure that's true.
00:27:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, that's what you get with *swearing*?
00:27:58 <coppro> I'm more willing to swear online than in person
00:28:00 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
00:28:04 <Sgeo> alise, hense why I said no kidding
00:28:09 <coppro> but I certainly don't do it casually
00:28:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yeah.
00:28:13 <alise> Not everyone does.
00:28:16 <alise> People don't say "u" in person.
00:28:24 <Sgeo> ....
00:28:31 * Phantom_Hoover once saw someone on TV Tropes express surprise that "sod" wasn't bleeped.
00:28:33 <Sgeo> Read what it says again
00:28:41 <alise> oh
00:28:44 <alise> ha
00:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> *Sod*. It's like "damn" or "hell".
00:29:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sod damn it to hell.
00:29:15 <pikhq> ... Yes, I would actually have said "IRL" there if around people who would have known the acronym without even thinking of it.
00:29:22 <coppro> yeah, me too
00:29:27 <alise> pikhq: lolll
00:29:32 <alise> read it again
00:29:37 <alise> carefully
00:29:40 <pikhq> alise: *Wow*.
00:29:51 <pikhq> I'm slow today.
00:29:54 <coppro> :D
00:29:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow at what?
00:30:02 <coppro> I've complained about RL graphics before
00:30:03 <pikhq> I would have totally made that slip IRL, though. :P
00:30:51 <coppro> hah
00:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you say "eerc" at the start of sentences?
00:31:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ?
00:31:05 <Sgeo> Yeerk?
00:31:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "IIRC" funeticly.
00:32:24 <pikhq> Anyways. TV ratings in the US are: Y, Y7, Y7-FV, G, PG, 14, MA. "Young", "Young, 7+", "Young, 7+, with Fantasy Violence", "General audience", "Parental Guidance suggested", "14+", "17+".
00:32:25 <Gregor> I say "if I recall correctly" ...
00:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "Fantasy violence"?
00:32:54 <Slereah> I think fantasy violence is hitting a pirate with a frying pan
00:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "Orc blood is clearly more scarring than man blood".
00:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> s/more/less/
00:33:19 <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : That's why Klingons had pink blood in Star Trek VI
00:33:21 <pikhq> No, no, no. "Looney Tunes is clearly more scarring than Barney."
00:33:27 <Gregor> s/scarring/delicious/
00:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I always wince slightly when people star out "hell" and "damn".
00:33:54 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I consider "IIRC" as a logograph.
00:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> And get an impulse to hit the people who did it.
00:34:16 <Slereah> As a yuropian, I find weird the whole taboo on hell and damn
00:34:26 <Slereah> But well, our nations weren't founded by puritans
00:34:47 <Slereah> Although that probably doesn't mean much because Australia is even crazier in censorship
00:35:04 <pikhq> It should amuse you, though, to note that other than at the very low ranges of our ratings, violence is *perfectly* acceptable pretty much of the time.
00:35:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, yes. You would have thought that criminals would be cool about that.
00:35:12 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, so are you going to censor me censoring d*mn?
00:35:25 <Phantom_Hoover> s/d*mn/damn/
00:35:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I shall focus the Device on you.
00:35:52 <Slereah> A decapitation is better than an asscrack
00:36:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Coördinates?
00:36:15 <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : This isn't the 20's
00:36:17 <Sgeo> Eh, an episode of The Nanny had an asscrack in it iirc
00:36:18 <Slereah> No diaresis
00:36:30 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, look what Slereah said
00:36:31 <pikhq> Make the film a gigantic shootout? PG! Add a nipple? R! Add a suggestion of someone having sex outside of the missionary position? BANNED!
00:36:49 <Slereah> Nooooo, not the nipple!
00:37:11 <Slereah> Which is strange, because babies see nipples all the time
00:37:15 <Slereah> They eat from them!
00:37:26 <pikhq> Slereah: The US has breast-feeding as a rarity.
00:37:32 <pikhq> So... No.
00:37:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, dö nöt ïnsült thë dïärësïs.
00:38:00 <Slereah> Lovecraft used diaresis :3
00:38:05 <Slereah> Like
00:38:07 <Slereah> Aroport
00:38:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Dïärësës.
00:38:33 * Phantom_Hoover loves the compose key.
00:38:54 <alise> <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : That's why Klingons had pink blood in Star Trek VI
00:38:55 <alise> Really?
00:39:07 <Phantom_Hoover> VI is 6, so good.
00:39:18 <Slereah> Yeah.
00:39:24 <Slereah> In other episodes, it's red
00:39:35 <Slereah> But they had to change it for rating purpose, IIRC
00:39:38 <alise> <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : This isn't the 20's <Slereah> No diaresis
00:39:40 <alise> :(
00:39:50 <alise> <Sgeo> Eh, an episode of The Nanny had an asscrack in it iirc <-- And you'd know, because you watched VERY CLOSELY.
00:40:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, The Undiscovered Country was great.
00:40:15 <alise> <pikhq> Slereah: The US has breast-feeding as a rarity.
00:40:15 <alise> <pikhq> So... No.
00:40:29 <alise> Whaaaa?
00:40:30 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, you're kidding.
00:40:42 <Phantom_Hoover> You have a total taboo on breastfeeding?
00:40:48 <alise> Not breastfeeding is considerd severely irresponsible in the UK.
00:41:02 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, America is now disqualified from the world.
00:41:05 -!- cheater99 has joined.
00:41:24 * coppro prepares to seal the IB
00:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, of course there would be one.
00:41:30 <alise> Has anyone seen Star Trek (2009)?
00:41:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It involves showing babies BREASTS.
00:41:38 <coppro> yes
00:41:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes
00:41:42 <alise> coppro: International Baccalaureate?
00:41:47 <coppro> alise: International Boundary
00:41:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: coppro: Is it any good>
00:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It is the only one I have seen
00:41:54 <alise> *good?
00:41:55 <coppro> IE that big curved line
00:41:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes.
00:42:01 <coppro> alise: worth watching
00:42:01 <Slereah> alise : Yes
00:42:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Presumably you've seen other Trek series, though.
00:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Nope.
00:42:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wha?!
00:42:15 <Slereah> The thing I most remember from Star Trek XI is
00:42:29 <coppro> I've seen all the ST movies except 6
00:42:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Prescription: The Next Generation. Yes, all of it. Well. You can skip everything with beardless Riker and Wesley.
00:42:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Not a taboo, but baby formula is the norm.
00:42:36 <Slereah> At one point, they send on a mission Sulu, Kirk, and some guy in a red suit
00:42:36 <pikhq> By far the norm.
00:42:38 <alise> Now shoo, go watch it.
00:42:40 <Slereah> And I thought
00:42:40 <alise> pikhq: That's crazy.
00:42:43 <Slereah> "Red guy is gonna die"
00:42:45 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it was never on, so I never watched it.
00:42:50 <pikhq> alise: Yes, it is.
00:42:51 <alise> Slereah: And he did, don't spoil it. :P
00:43:01 <Slereah> alise : It's really not a spoiler
00:43:06 <Slereah> I mean, it's Star Trek
00:43:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Virgin 1 show TNG, DS9 and Voyager every day... :P
00:43:11 <alise> Slereah: True dat
00:43:14 <Slereah> Red suits die if they go on a mission
00:43:21 <alise> <coppro> I've seen all the ST movies except 6
00:43:22 <alise> watch it
00:43:23 <alise> it's very good
00:43:27 <coppro> alise: I know that I should
00:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Slereah, red SHIRTS.
00:43:30 <alise> (it's the only Trek film I've seen)
00:43:42 <Slereah> alise : Watch Star Trek 4 and 8
00:43:44 <Slereah> They're the best
00:43:56 <coppro> 8 is First Contact?
00:44:01 <Slereah> Yes.
00:44:06 <coppro> yeah
00:44:09 <coppro> defs watch
00:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> We all know the formula, right?
00:44:29 <alise> That's recorded on the Sky+ box downstairs.
00:44:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Only works if you add Galaxy Quest.
00:44:35 <coppro> do not watch 5 except under duress
00:44:35 <alise> http://qntm.org/odd
00:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I know.
00:44:44 <alise> to get Nemesis and (2009) correct
00:44:50 <Phantom_Hoover> trekGoodness :: Int -> Bool
00:44:53 <Slereah> Galaxy Quest is also p. good
00:44:54 <Sgeo> Which one's 5?
00:45:03 <alise> Sgeo: The Final Frontier
00:45:04 <Slereah> 5 is the one considered bad
00:45:07 <Slereah> I liked it, though
00:45:13 <alise> Shatner wrote The Final Frontier.
00:45:20 <alise> Pretty sure Shatner is a fucking terrible writer.
00:45:20 <Phantom_Hoover> trekGoodness no = if no `mod` 2 == 1 then True else False
00:45:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ...
00:45:31 <alise> trekGoodness = even
00:45:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also:
00:45:37 <Slereah> Phantom_Hoover : what about 10
00:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I know.
00:45:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "if x then True else False"
00:45:52 <alise> Slereah: Galaxy Quest must be counted as #10
00:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, cut me some slack!
00:45:58 <Sgeo> I almost wrote code like that recently
00:45:59 <Slereah> Clever.
00:46:07 <alise> then it's #11: Nemesis, bad, #12: (2009), good
00:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I wrote in in like 5 seconds in a tiny single line IRC box.
00:46:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It was never going to be best practice.
00:46:45 <alise> It annoys me to no end that the HDTV is downstairs. >_>
00:46:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I wrote lists in cpp on an /iPhone/ in a mental institution.
00:47:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I cut no slack :P
00:47:08 <alise> On one line, too. In IRC.
00:47:15 <Sgeo> alise, well, you're God.
00:47:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, pssh.
00:47:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I once wrote a full kernel by whistling down a phone!
00:47:41 <alise> http://www.littlespikeyland.com/st_odd_even.php
00:47:43 <alise> "Therefore we can be 99% confident that the odd and even films represent two different classes of films, with the even films being the "better" of the two sets."
00:47:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, Joybubbles.
00:47:50 <alise> Sgeo: I love having worshippers.
00:48:07 <alise> (totally cheating though, that analysis)
00:48:24 <alise> Okay, more Trek opinions needed:
00:48:30 <alise> Enterprise: good series, bad series?
00:49:07 <Sgeo> Aren't Wrath of Khan and Search for Spock connected? Or is it some other two movies that are connected?
00:49:19 <coppro> 2-4 are all direct sequels
00:49:27 * Phantom_Hoover needs to sleep
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00:49:55 <Sgeo> alise, afaik, Enterprise is widely hated
00:50:00 <Sgeo> Never saw an episode myself though
00:50:04 <coppro> it's pretty bad
00:50:10 <alise> Okay.
00:50:15 <Slereah> You know
00:50:25 <Slereah> I didn't care for the Wrath of Khan all that much
00:50:31 <alise> Deep Space Nine: good series, bad series?
00:50:45 <coppro> DS9 has good and bad in it
00:50:49 <Slereah> I mean, I love Ricardo Montalban
00:50:51 <Slereah> But well
00:50:53 <coppro> not as wildly varying as voyager
00:50:56 <coppro> and on average better
00:51:07 <alise> That was a litmus test, I despise DS9. :P
00:51:16 <Slereah> You know what's terrible, though?
00:51:19 <alise> Okay, it's /saner/ than Voyager, but...
00:51:21 <Slereah> The animated series.
00:51:21 <alise> It's so fucking boring!
00:51:33 <Slereah> The animated series is all that's bad about Star Trek.
00:51:35 <alise> Slereah: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061122013747/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/0/0c/KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg/292px-KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg
00:51:54 <Sgeo> Wasn't the holodeck introduced in the animated series?
00:52:01 <alise> The "rec room" was.
00:52:02 <coppro> on the whole, I'd say DS9 > VOY
00:52:09 <Slereah> Maybe, iunno
00:52:10 <alise> But really, TNG is the one that really defined the holodeck.
00:52:24 <Slereah> The only thing that I regret is that M'ress was only in the animated series
00:52:29 <alise> coppro: If you have an attention span the length of ... something long.
00:52:48 <alise> Slereah: Furrrrryyyyy
00:52:53 <Sgeo> alise, broken link
00:52:57 <Slereah> http://mimg.ugo.com/200901/14973/mress.jpg
00:52:57 <Slereah> :3
00:53:00 <Slereah> I'd hit it.
00:53:00 <alise> Sgeo: Is not
00:53:08 <pikhq> coppro: * > VOY
00:53:20 <alise> pikhq: Nonono, Voyager has great merit because it's fucking hilarious, always.
00:53:23 <alise> Even watching Threshold is great.
00:53:38 <pikhq> alise: I'm afraid I find myself groaning instead.
00:53:59 <pikhq> Slereah: The animated series had some good moments. And a lot of corny moments.
00:54:06 <Slereah> Yeah.
00:54:17 <Slereah> I think the most telling episode is the one where they go into a universe
00:54:20 <Slereah> Where there's MAGIC
00:54:21 <pikhq> Basically, though, it's TOS with worse production values.
00:54:29 <alise> I don't like TOS much.
00:54:29 <Slereah> And Spock has to do a spell
00:54:36 <alise> I don't think Roddenberry was a very good writer, I have to admit.
00:54:36 <pikhq> (if such a thing was possible)
00:54:42 <alise> Too idealistic.
00:54:50 <alise> I love TNG.
00:54:51 <pikhq> alise: TOS, again, has its moments and a lot of corn.
00:54:56 <Slereah> My favorite episodes are the time travel episodes
00:54:59 <pikhq> TNG is absolutely amazing.
00:55:01 <Slereah> That's why I loved 4 and 8
00:55:08 <alise> There's a digital remaster thing of TOS airing on one of the CBS channels over here.
00:55:11 <alise> It's awful.
00:55:13 <Slereah> Well, TNG also had stupid episodes
00:55:16 <alise> You can't digitally remaster cardboard.
00:55:19 <alise> It just feels still and ... weird.
00:55:20 <Slereah> Like the one where they all become children
00:55:35 <pikhq> Yes, but TOS had more stupid episodes than good ones.
00:55:43 <alise> TNG is as good as Trek gets.
00:55:47 <pikhq> And the good ones are, themselves, filled with a lot of corn.
00:55:48 <alise> Which is "a bit above mediocre".
00:56:07 <alise> But, most sci-fi you see is "almost unbearable crap".
00:56:08 <Slereah> Plus, it has Data <3
00:56:11 <alise> So TNG is very good.
00:56:24 <coppro> I'm with Slereah
00:56:44 * alise tries to find a nice Data quote to mark the mention of his name
00:57:07 <Slereah> "One is my name, and the other isn't."
00:57:20 * alise looks for a script
00:57:24 <alise> Yay, a script.
00:58:15 <Ilari> Lot of _anythng_ is crap.
00:58:20 <Ilari> *anything
00:58:36 <alise> O'Brien: We're all going to be burning the midnight oil on this one. / Data: That would be inadvisable. If you attempt to ignite a petroleum product on this ship at zero-hundred hours, it will activate the fire suppression system, which will seal off this entire compartment. / [...] / Data: Ah. Then "to burn the midnight oil" implies late work?
00:58:41 <alise> Soon after:
00:58:57 <alise> Data: This will require a completely new field induction subprocessor. It appears that we will be required to... ignite the midnight petroleum, sir.
00:59:24 <alise> Data would have been a much better character if the Trek writers had any sense of what an emotionless, rational, but still human-intelligence robot would be like :P
00:59:29 <alise> Which is, uh
00:59:32 <alise> More tautological than I intended.
00:59:39 <alise> Ilari: Yes, but more bad sci-fi gets published/etc.
00:59:53 <Slereah> alise : Iunno
01:00:05 <Slereah> He would not have been as endearing if he actually had no emotions
01:00:25 <alise> True...
01:00:28 <alise> But still.
01:00:34 <alise> Sometimes he's not very logical ... at all.
01:00:45 <alise> In fact come to think of it he's basically a Vulcan who talks weird.
01:01:26 <pikhq> And Vulcans themselves are not exactly logical.
01:01:27 <Slereah> Well, most of the TNG cast was just TOS with different actors
01:01:50 <pikhq> I consider their claims of this to just be religious assertations.
01:01:56 <pikhq> Erm, claims.
01:02:00 <alise> pikhq: One thing I've always been uneasy about: canon states they learned to "suppress" emotions.
01:02:01 <pikhq> Assertions.
01:02:05 <alise> So they still have all these emotions, they just ... bottle them up?
01:02:09 <alise> That's gotta be really unhealthy.
01:02:19 <alise> Slereah: Picard was a way better captain than Kirk though
01:02:26 <Slereah> That's why the Vulkan in Star Trek 5 was all crazy
01:02:35 <Slereah> He just lets out his emotions, and BAM!
01:02:37 <alise> "Vulkan"
01:02:46 <Slereah> Fifty years of bottled emotions come out
01:02:52 <alise> pikhq: BTW, the quality of that cleaned-up TNG rip is pretty good.
01:03:02 <alise> pikhq: It's still... very soft, you know, but that's just how it was filmed.
01:03:10 <alise> No artifacts or anything.
01:03:55 <alise> Anyway, TNG from season 2 onwards is good. Preferably without Wesley. Definitely not anywhere where Wesley saves the day.
01:04:06 <Slereah> Wesley is the worst
01:04:13 <Slereah> With his faggy rainbow sweater
01:04:27 <alise> Even Wil Wheaton hated Wesley.
01:04:33 <Sgeo> I liked The Game
01:04:38 <alise> Sgeo: FUCK YOU
01:04:45 <alise> ^ Example of the correct use of profanity.
01:04:46 <Sgeo> But then again, I haven't seen that many Wesley saves the day eps, so
01:05:07 <alise> "The Game"
01:05:14 <Sgeo> Oh
01:05:20 <Sgeo> Well, thank you very much
01:05:28 <pikhq> Wesley was by far the worse character on TNG.
01:05:49 <Sgeo> Didn't Wesley do something that got someone killed?
01:05:59 <pikhq> God damned Gene Wesley Roddenberry.
01:06:07 <alise> Yeah: being that annoying can kill.
01:06:19 <alise> Fun fact: I thought Chekov was French.
01:06:20 <alise> No joke.
01:06:32 <Slereah> Nuclearrr wessels
01:06:32 <alise> He was such a smooth Frenchman, too, right up until I realised his name was "Chekov".
01:06:36 <pikhq> Hah.
01:06:56 <pikhq> Well, it's not like they could actually get a *Russian* to do the role.
01:07:01 <pikhq> I mean, Cold War and all.
01:07:13 <Slereah> But that was the point of Star Trek :o
01:07:22 <Slereah> To present a perfect future where everyone is at peace
01:07:25 <Slereah> Except aliens
01:07:27 <Slereah> Fuck aliens
01:07:50 <alise> Heh, an American played Chekov in (2009), too.
01:07:50 <Sgeo> Don't mind if I do!
01:07:53 <alise> XD
01:08:25 <pikhq> 'Some of Wesley's The Wesley-ness is accidental: Six scripts had been drafted for the "Wesley saves the day" plot, with the intention that the best elements of each would be combined to make one character-focus episode on Wesley — none of them were especially good, but it was hoped that there would be enough good material between them to make a single episode. A writer's strike dried up the supply of scripts for the first season, so all six d
01:08:27 <alise> Sgeo: Which aliens are we talkking about here?
01:08:32 <pikhq> *groan*
01:08:40 <alise> pikhq: "all six d--" but I get the jist. Ha.
01:08:49 <alise> *gist
01:09:25 <alise> Sgeo: *talking
01:09:45 <pikhq> '[...] so all six drafts were completed and produced, at which point Wesley's characterization was firmly entrenched. '
01:10:33 <Sgeo> So wouldn't that make that badness just a season 1 thing?
01:10:55 <alise> No, because Wesley continued being Wesley until he left.
01:12:09 <pikhq> No, that just made Season 1 all the worse.
01:13:04 <alise> Even non-Wesley, bearded-Riker episodes can be really bad. e.g. Sub Rosa.
01:14:53 <pikhq> Yeah, but a Wesley episode is instabad. As is babyface Riker.
01:15:18 <alise> Maybe eliminating Deanna-focused episodes would trim it down to almost universally good.
01:15:58 <pikhq> Ugh, Troi.
01:16:06 <pikhq> The character who had *no reason to exist*.
01:16:12 <alise> Sub Rosa was Troi-focused, for instance.
01:16:34 <pikhq> Why the hell would you need a *counselor* on the bridge at all times?
01:17:02 <alise> Picard: Computer, what day is it?
01:17:02 <alise> Computer: The first day of the rest of your life.
01:17:02 <alise> Picard: GRRRRR....
01:17:02 <alise> Troi: It's Stardate 47988, Captain.
01:17:02 <alise> Picard: *Thank* you, Counsellor. At last your genius for stating the obvious has come in useful.
01:17:03 <alise> --Five-Minute "All Good Things..."
01:17:06 <pikhq> And she didn't even... Counsel.
01:17:25 <alise> (Note: Worf is the one who actually says it in the episode. :P)
01:18:22 <alise> [[Picard: Yes... yes, of course. It's all coming back now. I'm readjusting to this time --
01:18:22 <alise> Picard: -- period. Dammit!
01:18:23 <alise> Yar: I'm sorry, sir, I'm afraid I don't understand. Are you swearing about punctuation or feminine problems?
01:18:23 <alise> Picard: Tasha! You're alive!
01:18:23 <alise> Yar: Um... that's correct, sir.
01:18:24 <alise> Picard: At last. I've always wanted to tell you how much I miss --
01:18:26 <alise> Picard: -- your presence on the bridge.
01:18:30 <alise> Troi: It is? Really? Oh, Captain, you remembered my birthday! I'll go get it right away!
01:18:32 <alise> Picard: This had better be the last time we do that gag.]]
01:18:34 <alise> Oh, dammit, I'll end up quoting the entire thing again if I don't stop.
01:18:36 <alise> Here: http://www.fiveminute.net/nextgen/fiver.php?ep=allgoodthings
01:18:42 <alise> It's more like twenty-minute "All Good Things...", though.
01:18:49 <Sgeo> Wasn't she useful in Encounter at Farpoint?
01:18:58 <Sgeo> [Note: I've only seen a part of that ep]
01:19:07 <pikhq> Whenever counselling was done in TNG, it was *Guinan*...
01:19:09 <pikhq> *groan*
01:19:12 <alise> "-- your presence on the bridge" -> "your present's on the bridge" has to be the cheesiest thing I've ever seen.
01:19:28 <Sgeo> alise, I didn't even notice that >.>
01:19:33 <alise> It took me a while.
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01:20:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: You may forget all parts of Encounter at Farpoint which did not have Q.
01:20:15 <alise> Dammit Libertine's Q is hot.
01:20:18 <alise> Qu Qu Qu Qu
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01:25:41 <alise> Fun fact: "Te'arl grayaucht" means "[Colour of tea] bitter water" in Picardian.
01:26:12 <alise> pikhq: Is "bloody" bleeped on US TV?
01:27:16 <Sgeo> No, afaik, but I've never heard it used
01:27:23 <Sgeo> It's a very British word
01:27:40 <alise> Indeed; Scotty says it in an episode of TNG, at least, which was broadcast on US TV, obviously.
01:27:58 <alise> Bloody and naff are the greatest British English-only words there are.
01:28:46 <Sgeo> It occurs to be that bloody not used in that context isn't particularly British
01:29:21 <alise> Well, that meaning.
01:34:59 <Gregor> alise: I actually use "bloody" all the time.
01:35:28 <Gregor> I don't even know what "naff" means though, so *eh*
01:35:42 <alise> Naff is ... rubbish, in a way, but more British.
01:35:59 <alise> Like "supremely mediocre" if it was an active badness rather than a passive... middleness.
01:36:03 <alise> Ineffectual.
01:36:03 <Gregor> "Rubbish" is already pretty British.
01:36:11 <alise> Yes, but even more British.
01:36:45 <alise> If you look at a new language that's almost exactly like Python or whatever, just cleaned up slightly and with some boring new features, and it makes you go "bleh" and "meh" and "feh" when looking at it... if it's not terrible, it's naff.
01:36:49 <Gregor> Apparently in (certain parts of) Canada they use "litter" to mean what Americans mean when they say "garbage" and what Brits mean when they say "rubbish", rather than what either of us mean when we say "litter".
01:37:08 <alise> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/naff#Adjective
01:39:27 <Sgeo> narf?
01:39:46 <alise> "Narf?"?
01:40:08 * Sgeo knows 1 TV show that alise has never heard of
01:40:42 <alise> Oh, Pinky and the Brain.
01:40:49 <alise> I just didn't recognise the reference. Yes, of course I know of Pinky and the Brain.
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02:08:49 <Sgeo> alise subscribe: Chat do: [ :ann | self say: ann text ].
02:09:58 <alise> Feh.
02:28:02 <alise> pikhq: In contrast to the US' cursing conservatism, the word "bollocks" was deemed to be acceptable in "Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols".
02:28:07 <alise> (in the UK, of course)
02:30:24 <Gregor> "Bollocks" is acceptable on TV at any time here :P
02:30:29 <Gregor> Since it's, like, not even a word here.
02:31:05 <alise> Bollocks to that.
02:31:20 <alise> It's quite offensive here.
02:31:40 <alise> "logorrhoea" is actually a term, AWESOME
02:35:18 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scared_Straight! ;; "fuck" broadcast on US TV in 1978
02:42:09 <pikhq> alise: I've seen "bloody" rated Y.
02:42:49 <pikhq> And I do use "bloody".
02:43:00 <pikhq> I was aware of "naff" but never used it myself.
02:43:26 <alise> <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scared_Straight! ;; "fuck" broadcast on US TV in 1978
02:43:27 <alise> ANSWER THIS
02:43:37 <pikhq> Predates FCC obscenity rules!
02:43:40 <calamari> why does floating point use a binary exponent? why not use something like 10 or 16?
02:43:48 <alise> pikhq: But Carlin said you couldn't say "fuck" beforehand!
02:43:53 <alise> calamari: cuz computers use binary.
02:44:09 <calamari> alise: duh.. not really an answer
02:44:12 <calamari> :)
02:44:13 <pikhq> Yes. Sometime after he made that joke, *they decided to use that list*.
02:44:32 <oerjan> calamari: well 16 is equivalent to binary for this purpose
02:44:36 * Sgeo still doesn't know the recommended way to do callback stuff in Squeak
02:44:47 <calamari> oerjan: not really.. 16 gives a larger range
02:45:04 <pikhq> When he had started making that joke, there were no country-wide regulations on it...
02:45:30 <pikhq> And he was sometimes arrested *for giving that joke*...
02:45:31 <oerjan> calamari: but you'd get less precision for numbers of the form 1. ... * 16^n
02:45:46 <calamari> would you?
02:46:00 <alise> i suggest we use base 1 for the exponent
02:46:04 <alise> that's the best of all worlds, really
02:46:19 <pikhq> alise: *Oh god*. The FCC settled on that list because Carlin's routine was put on the radio and a *single person* was offended that his son heard such filth.
02:47:13 <Sgeo> Single person that complained, you mean
02:47:23 <pikhq> Well, yes.
02:48:04 <pikhq> Anyways. Because of this mess, all live broadcasts in the US are actually on a delay so they can bleep.
02:48:29 <pikhq> (ever since the nipple-slip and Bono saying "fuck" on live TV...)
02:48:56 <coppro> oh no
02:49:02 <oerjan> calamari: the mantissa would have to be 1 <= m < 16, if you then have a fixed number of bits after the point then the higher numbers would have less precision compared to in binary.
02:49:10 <oerjan> er
02:49:14 <oerjan> the lower numbers
02:49:17 <Sgeo> coppro becomeForward: nil.
02:50:09 <calamari> oerjan: I guess I'm confused then
02:50:33 <alise> pikhq: Last Christmas, when the whole "X-Factor (music reality show thing here) contestant winner" vs "really old Rage Against the Machine single" battle for the Christmas #1 space on the charts was ongoing (this actually happened, I am not shitting you: Rage Against the Machine won!), Rage Against the Machine were asked to play the song live on radio; it ends with a succession of lines that use the word "fuck" rather a lot. This was in the day time; they h
02:50:33 <alise> ad been asked ... not to include that part. They included it. All that happened was a fadeout and the presenters going "Bad band! Bad!". What would the reaction in the US be? Nuclear fallout?
02:50:38 <calamari> I was trying to change floating point so that I could have 8 digits of decimal precision in 32 bits
02:51:21 <calamari> I wasn't able to do it until I change it from 2^x to 10^x
02:51:33 * Sgeo attempts assassination of everyone in #squeak
02:51:43 <pikhq> alise: Fines, fines, more fines, and a possible loss of broadcasting license.
02:51:53 <pikhq> Also, in the news, nuclear fallout.
02:51:58 <Sgeo> Actually, I may have killed everyone on IRC
02:52:03 <coppro> nope
02:52:07 * calamari lives!
02:52:21 <pikhq> We fucking remember someone's nipple being shown on TV for a few seconds, for crissake...
02:52:29 <pikhq> Sorry, frames.
02:52:50 <Sgeo> Stupid nipple decoration thingy
02:52:50 <Sgeo> Erm
02:53:32 <calamari> anyhow.. it seems like I can leave 28 bits for the number and 4 bits for placing the decimal point, and I should be able to represent positive and negative numbers from .00000001 to 99999999.
02:53:39 <oerjan> calamari: well 10^x doesn't really make sense unless you use decimal for the mantissa part too
02:54:51 <pikhq> alise: Oh, yes, the censorship also applies to radio.
02:55:16 <pikhq> alise: Music on the radio ends up either having the cursing removed from the voice track in the for-radio mix or a bleep.
02:56:23 <calamari> oerjan: I guess that could be 1 bit for sign, 4 bits for decimal place, 27 bits for number. how can I translate that into a 2^x?
02:56:42 <alise> * Sgeo attempts assassination of everyone in #squeak <-- What did they do this time?
02:56:45 <calamari> with only 4 bits of 2^x, I can't make big numbers
02:56:50 <Sgeo> alise, nothing
02:56:57 <Sgeo> Except assist me
02:57:07 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Chatter allInstancesDo: [ :chatter | chatter becomeForward: nil ].
02:57:07 <Sgeo> <RandalSchwartz> best to do "String new" just in case become: or becomeForward: is two-way
02:57:19 <alise> Randal Schwartz!
02:57:20 <alise> he's cool
02:57:28 <alise> & quite famous
02:57:33 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randal_L._Schwartz
02:57:59 <alise> popularised "Just another Perl hacker,", invented the Schwartzian transform
02:58:07 <alise> sued by Oregon :P
02:58:22 <alise> co-author of the camel book, Programming Perl
02:58:23 <alise> etc.
02:58:27 <alise> (and now Squeaker ofc)
02:58:28 * oerjan doesn't really know floating point beyond that it's m*2^x with presumably fixed no. of bits for each of m and x
02:58:50 <alise> oerjan: that's it, basically
02:59:03 <pikhq> I cannot even fathom why Comedy Central does the bleeping.
02:59:27 <pikhq> (keep in mind they air South Park. Which used to have the record for instances of fuck per minute.)
02:59:36 <Sgeo> It hits the fan?
03:00:01 <Sgeo> I think they used the word "shit" either 0 or 1 times in that ep. I think
03:00:05 <Sgeo> Or maybe a lot
03:00:07 <Sgeo> I have no idea
03:00:16 <alise> "0, 1, or a lot"
03:00:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: The movie.
03:00:36 <Sgeo> alise, well, that does exclude 2 or 3
03:00:43 <pikhq> Still has record for instances of fuck in an animated film.
03:01:03 <pikhq> (it lost the record for total to a documentary on the word.)
03:01:31 <oerjan> !haskell 9*2*10^8
03:01:41 <Sgeo> !smalltalk
03:01:44 <EgoBot> 1800000000
03:01:51 <Sgeo> !smalltalk Transcript show: 'Hi!'.
03:01:53 <calamari> !python 1+2
03:01:56 <pikhq> Mmkay. "It Hits The Fan" had 162 instances of shit.
03:01:56 <Sgeo> aww
03:01:58 <oerjan> !haskell 2^32
03:01:59 <EgoBot> 4294967296
03:02:01 <calamari> !help
03:02:01 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
03:02:10 <calamari> !help languages
03:02:11 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
03:02:11 <pikhq> A counter runs in the episode.
03:02:14 <oerjan> calamari: well there _should_ be room in there, somehow :D
03:02:43 <calamari> oerjan: yeah somehow the 2^x wastes it whereas my non-standard representation fits it
03:02:53 <coppro> Sgeo: maybe you didn't notice because it was bleeped?
03:03:05 <Sgeo> coppro, I never saw the ep
03:03:18 <oerjan> calamari: i suspect those 8-digit calculators use decimal internally, anyway
03:03:24 <Sgeo> Just vaguely knew the name, and that it was related to the word "shit"
03:03:30 <Sgeo> And something about a subversion?
03:03:56 <alise> Okay, what about this floating point structure:
03:04:02 <alise> some of the floating point is dedicated to /specifying the base/
03:04:06 <alise> i.e. we have (mantissa, base, exponent)
03:04:13 <calamari> LOL
03:04:18 <alise> presumably base is quite small, mantissa is quite big, and exponent is medium
03:04:18 <calamari> this is going to be cool
03:04:25 <alise> calamari: yeah /that/ would be awesome :D
03:04:50 <alise> actually ... that sounds like a good idea
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03:04:56 <alise> Quick, someone tell me why it sucks.
03:05:16 <oerjan> well until you try to do arithmetic with two numbers of different bases
03:05:23 <calamari> oerjan: well there is a decimal32 sstandard but it only gives 7 digits of precision
03:05:28 <alise> calamari: use hackego for python
03:05:37 <coppro> alise: how is it stored? Binary Coded BASEN?
03:05:46 <calamari> `help
03:05:46 <alise> coppro: just binary
03:05:53 <coppro> ok
03:05:56 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:06:01 <alise> coppro: we store (m,b,e) for m * b^e in binary
03:06:10 <coppro> ok
03:06:19 <coppro> don't forget a sign bit
03:06:27 <alise> *(s,b,e)
03:06:28 <alise> coppro: yes
03:06:34 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
03:06:38 <alise> (+-,s,b,e) for +-(m * b^e)
03:06:50 <alise> hmm
03:06:53 <alise> in IEEE
03:07:09 <alise> we have s:24b
03:07:21 <oerjan> !haskell 2^32 / (9*2*10^8)
03:07:22 <EgoBot> 2.386092942222222
03:07:23 <alise> which leaves 7b for exponent
03:08:05 * Sgeo wonders if he should try VisualWorks
03:08:17 <oerjan> calamari: there is so little extra room that you need to pack tightly, a decimal standard would probably use some way that made it easy to get at the decimal digits, using too much room
03:08:27 <alise> so for 64-bit, we have s:48.77b; taking that as 48, we have 15b left for the exponent
03:08:58 <alise> now let's say we take away 6 bits from the exponent, leaving there be 9b for the exponent
03:09:03 <alise> these 6 bits are the base
03:09:21 <oerjan> say if it uses 4 bits per digit, then you get just 8 and 1 is probably for exponent
03:09:54 <calamari> oerjan: yeah I figured out for an old 8 digit calculator screen it can represent 1255333573 different values, requiring 30.2254, or 31 bits
03:10:19 <alise> well
03:10:20 <calamari> that's with the negative sign eating a digit
03:10:21 <alise> that gives us (2^48 - 1) * 61^511 maximum
03:10:30 <alise> oh wait the exponent is signed
03:10:37 <alise> well, whatever, it's a big number
03:10:45 <alise> oerjan: any flaws to this representation? apart from difficult arithmetic :P
03:11:24 <oerjan> alise: well there will probably be some numbers with multiple representations
03:11:49 <alise> meh, who cares :D
03:12:29 <Sgeo> Hm
03:12:49 <Sgeo> Apparently, it will take about an hour for VW to install
03:13:14 <Sgeo> When I think "more professional than Squeak/Pharo", I was kind of hoping that that wouldn't include the customary IDE slowness
03:13:21 <Sgeo> And install slowness
03:13:27 <alise> Sgeo: VisualWorks sucks.
03:13:35 <alise> Pharo is professional enough.
03:13:40 <Sgeo> alise, besides being proprietary, howso?
03:13:51 <alise> It just does :P
03:14:04 <Sgeo> They came up with the Announcements framework, which I _will_ be using in my AW SDK bindings
03:15:44 <Sgeo> Well, we seem to have done 20min in the space of 2min
03:15:47 <Sgeo> So that's a good sign
03:19:22 <oerjan> no, that's a sign of bad time dilation. we might be falling into a black hole!
03:23:20 <Sgeo> EsotericChannel subscribe: Chat do: [:ann | ann chatter becomeForward: nil ]. "MUAHAHAHA! ANYONE SPEAKS, THEY DIE!"
03:24:30 <oerjan> what are you talAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa
03:28:29 <Sgeo> It's now stuck at 8 sec remaining
03:28:31 * Sgeo dies
03:31:29 <oerjan> Brains
03:38:53 <Warrigal> Does anyone here play Battle for Wesnoth? My friend and I would like to find a group to play in.
03:44:06 <Sgeo> I tried it once or twice, I think
03:44:17 <Sgeo> Love the music, esp. The Dangerous Symphony
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03:46:46 <alise> Warrigal: Well ... AnMaster.
03:46:57 <alise> Warrigal: So yeah, nobody.
03:47:01 <Warrigal> :P
03:47:11 <Warrigal> Sgeo: I don't suppose you're up for a game right now?
03:47:22 <Sgeo> No :/
03:47:32 <Sgeo> Need to eat and sleep soon
03:53:17 <calamari> Gregor: in case you hasn't already found this http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/
03:53:49 <Gregor> I had not.
03:53:51 <Gregor> Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.
04:10:36 <alise> How does one configure the web browser XChat opens links in?
04:12:57 <Sgeo> Can Hackiki do Smalltalk?
04:13:36 <alise> Can my toaster do Smalltalk????
04:14:06 <Sgeo> (Toaster new) insert: myToast; toast.
04:14:25 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe that should be add:
04:14:46 <alise> I'm glad Sgeo is finally growing taste in languages. It's like watching a wittle baby gwow up! >_>
04:14:56 <alise> Next you'll discover Lisp.
04:15:56 <Sgeo> Lisp is more implementation-dependent, and there are so many, than Smalltalk!
04:17:06 <Gregor> Sgeo: Hackiki can do anything the system can do, however, most Smalltalk environment aren't exactly known for integrating well into their environment. GNU Smalltalk is the exception.
04:17:14 <alise> And GNU Smalltalk sucks.
04:17:17 <Gregor> Yup
04:17:23 <alise> Sgeo: Smalltalk is very implementation-dependent.
04:17:26 <alise> Less so now, but still pretty dependent.
04:17:32 <alise> Especially considering EVERYTHING IS INSIDE A VM IMAGE.
04:17:39 <alise> What's that you say? File outs? Hahahaha...
04:17:54 <alise> Monticello is gaining support for more systems, though, I gather.
04:18:02 <Sgeo> Isn't the format for those defined by ANSI Smalltalk?
04:18:20 <alise> For fileouts? Yes.
04:18:27 <alise> Barely "portability", though, more like an export format.
04:18:49 <Sgeo> I don't see how Monticello would help the portability issue, though :/
04:19:16 <Sgeo> Make it easier to bring incompatible code into various implementations?
04:19:53 <alise> Allow collaboration between people using different implementations.
04:20:05 <alise> That's assuming all the system classes are the same, which isn't such a reasonable assumption, but is getting better.
04:20:23 <alise> More to the point, though, nobody uses anything but VisualWorks and Squeak/Pharo, and nobody doing open-source stuff uses VisualWorks.
04:20:39 <alise> So it's not such a huge problem, considering the Smalltalk community has quite a bit of inertia (Pharo is long overdue) so it's unlikely to change.
04:20:57 <alise> You can trace Squeak's lineage directly back to Smalltalk-80.
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04:24:51 <Sgeo> How much of a chance do you think I have of getting other AW people to start using Smalltalk when I showcase the advantages?
04:25:50 <alise> They sound hideously stupid, so 0.
04:25:56 <alise> Especially since it's so ... different.
04:26:06 <alise> "It looks like a kid made it, and how do I save to a file?"
04:26:14 <alise> "What is this browser thing? Where do I type class {?"
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04:26:59 <Sgeo> alise, you never met another AW SDK programmer
04:28:02 <pikhq> Ah, Smalltalk.
04:28:21 <pikhq> Though I don't *use* it much, I must admit that it has much awesome.
04:28:45 * Sgeo still needs to get a grip on thisContext
04:29:02 <pikhq> Pity it almost inherently is its own completely seperate environment.
04:29:15 <Sgeo> pikhq, that's what makes it so fun!
04:29:26 <Sgeo> >.>
04:29:42 <pikhq> Of course, this just means that Smalltalk should run on bare hardware.
04:29:43 <pikhq> :)
04:29:59 <Sgeo> Hmm. Doesn't static typing usually enable IDEs to be much smarter?
04:30:09 <Sgeo> Yet Smalltalks are often known for their IDEness
04:31:26 <pikhq> You know what makes for a great IDE? Being able to edit everything at runtime.
04:32:12 <alise> <pikhq> Of course, this just means that Smalltalk should run on bare hardware.
04:32:14 <alise> as it did originally
04:32:28 <pikhq> alise: Quite.
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04:53:04 <pikhq> Hmm. Should I go back to horrifying the Europeans?
04:53:12 <alise> Yes.
04:53:20 <pikhq> http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/files/images/prison-bunk.jpg
04:53:25 <Sgeo> We use INCHes here
04:53:26 <pikhq> American prison cell.
04:54:05 <alise> http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1000000/images/_1004547_uk_cell150.jpg
04:54:06 <alise> British
04:54:22 <pikhq> http://sydwalker.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/swedish_prison_cell-300x203.jpg
04:54:23 <alise> pikhq: http://www.jabulela.com/files/media/norwegian-prison4.jpg Norwegian prison cell.
04:54:25 <pikhq> Swedish
04:54:28 <alise> ha
04:54:43 <pikhq> Gotta love Scandinavia.
04:54:54 <alise> i'm moving to sweden then stealing tons of shit
04:54:54 <alise> brb
04:54:57 <pikhq> :P
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05:10:20 <alise> DIAERESISESERS
05:12:18 <Gregor> D ... aresis.
05:12:52 <alise> dïäëräësïs
05:16:21 <alise> pikhq: So how come movies get to say "fuck"?
05:17:37 <coppro> alise: They aren't controlled by broadcast regulations
05:17:44 <alise> neither is cable tv
05:17:49 <alise> yet they still bleep curses
05:17:52 <alise> says pikhq
05:18:25 <coppro> most cable stations are controlled by big networks, as I understand it
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05:21:02 <pikhq> alise: Hysterical raisins.
05:21:22 <alise> ah.
05:21:25 <alise> fuck the us
05:22:17 <Sgeo> Hm
05:22:24 <alise> HRM
05:22:29 <Sgeo> I want Erlang-style concurrency without weird receive{} blocks
05:22:46 <Sgeo> I have found no information on the Actor model in Smalltalk
05:22:55 <pikhq> Check the Haskell FAQ on lambdabot.
05:23:18 <Sgeo> I know how the Actor model works in general... I think
05:24:24 <alise> Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu Q Q Q Q Qu Qu Qu Qu
05:24:27 <alise> pikhq: Why would that help him?
05:24:37 <pikhq> alise: Because Haskell Can Do That
05:24:38 <pikhq> :P
05:25:00 <alise> Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu Qu “Indeed," said the Ambassador, “‘Qu’ does look appealing in this typeface.”
05:26:23 <coppro> Sgeo: Why don't you want receive blocks?
05:29:09 <Sgeo> I think encouraging someone to learn Smalltalk at the same time I'm teaching him C# might be a bad idea
05:30:07 <Sgeo> Given select: = Where(), collect: = Select()
05:30:15 <coppro> hah
05:37:00 <alise> You're not teaching him. (Probably. Unless you're a natural-born teacher, which I'm not sure exists.)
05:43:01 <alise> http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP/Deolalikar.pdf Serious attempt at P!=NP proof by a respected computer scientist at HP that has withstood some criticism so far, although nobody knows anything about whether it works or not, of course.
05:43:06 <alise> We need people here to look over it :-)
05:43:46 <Sgeo> http://forums.activeworlds.com/showthread.php?p=128618#post128618
05:44:22 <alise> do: [ :ann | myInstance say: (ann name), ': ', (ann message).].
05:44:23 <alise> remove first .
05:44:24 <alise> it is redundant
05:44:32 <alise> also
05:44:35 <alise> remove the ()s in the ,s
05:44:35 <pikhq> alise: I've looked at it, though not much.
05:44:46 <alise> do: [ :ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message ].
05:44:56 <alise> pikhq: Any opinions?
05:45:06 <Sgeo> alise, these people have probably never seen Smalltalk before
05:45:18 <alise> Just do it, I'm improving your Smalltalk.
05:45:22 <Sgeo> Although that might be an argument for making it look cleaner
05:45:24 <alise> :|
05:45:28 <Sgeo> And I know the precedent rules
05:46:15 <alise> It's about style, now do it >_>
05:46:20 <alise> It hurts my eyes as-is :P
05:46:49 <Sgeo> Fixed
05:47:01 <pikhq> alise: Good God.
05:47:08 <Sgeo> It's ok to have a constructor not use new, right?
05:47:16 <alise> pikhq: ?
05:47:28 <alise> Sgeo: It's stylistic not to.
05:47:37 <pikhq> Never thought an even plausible proof of that would float around. :P
05:47:44 <alise> "File named: ...", for instance, would be conventional.
05:47:53 <alise> Or perhaps "File withName: ...", if you're creating a file and not just reading it from disk.
05:49:00 <Sgeo> Ah
05:50:57 <Sgeo> I showed you a screenshot of MagsBot once
05:52:07 <alise> do: [ :ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message].
05:52:13 <alise> either remove the spaces from the whole [...] block (preferable)
05:52:15 <alise> or put a space after message
05:52:16 <alise> I suggest
05:52:19 <alise> do: [:ann | myInstance say: ann name, ': ', ann message].
05:52:22 <alise> normally no spaces are added.
05:52:26 <alise> And YES this is important :|
05:53:16 <Sgeo> Maybe I should add some comments
05:53:16 <alise> Sgeo: :||
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05:58:17 <Sgeo> Or maybe I should eat my pizza and go to bed
05:58:43 <alise> It's 5:54.
05:58:45 <alise> I think likewise.
05:59:38 <Sgeo> Oh, uh
05:59:50 <Sgeo> My sample completely forgets everything required by the AW SDK
06:00:59 <alise> Fix it and fix it according to my suggestions :P
06:01:00 <alise> SLAVE
06:01:02 <alise> Anyway, goodnight.
06:01:02 <alise> Bye.
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06:57:36 <coppro> poll: what animal will Ubuntu 11.04 be?
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07:00:18 <coppro> Nyala? Nanger?
07:04:03 <fizzie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames has that list of suggestions; I don't think they've picked one yet?
07:05:09 <fizzie> "Nagging Nag if more pop-up reminders are added to the desktop" -- I smell some bitterness.
07:05:42 <Gregor> Naughty Nymph
07:07:15 <fizzie> For some reason there seems to be quite many Naughty N's suggested.
07:07:25 <fizzie> "Naughty Nightelf -- just think about the artwork we could make"
07:07:48 <fizzie> I'm sure that'd promote Linux-on-desktop well.
07:08:43 <fizzie> Narwhal seems like a popular animal, too.
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08:34:47 <ais523> hmm, http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP.htm is interesting
08:34:54 <ais523> it's a list of proofs of P=NP, and of P!=NP
08:35:09 <coppro> heh
08:35:27 <ais523> also, proofs that it's undecidable
08:35:29 <ais523> and a few other things
08:35:45 <coppro> it's gutsy that the guy published it publicly without perr review
08:35:47 <coppro> *peer
08:36:28 <ais523> <Hubert Chen> "Proof by contradiction. Assume P=NP. Let y be a proof that P=NP. The proof y can be verified in polynomial time by a competent computer scientist, the existence of which we assert. However, since P=NP, the proof y can be generated in polynomial time by such computer scientists. Since this generation has not yet occurred (despite attempts by such computer scientists to produce a proof), we have a contradiction."
08:41:58 <coppro> haha
08:42:43 <ais523> perhaps it just has a really large constant factor?
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10:25:19 <GreaseMonkey> i left it way too late to chip in but i have a friend who thinks he may have an O(n^4) algorithm for turning NP into P
10:25:49 <ais523> he's probably wrong
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10:28:17 <fizzie> And "probably wrong" is very close to "provably wrong"; it has a Levenshtein distance of just one.
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10:28:55 <ais523> hmm, that gives a Levenshtein-1 proof of P!=NP, doesn't it?
10:34:46 <GreaseMonkey> [Equal]: In 2005, Dr. Joachim Mertz proved P=NP. His main contribution is a linear programming formulation of the TSP with O(n^5) variables and O(n^4) constraints. <-- weird...
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11:34:31 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
11:34:31 <myndzi> |
11:34:31 <myndzi> /`\
11:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot
11:34:43 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i wish i knew where fix point combinators? :) fnord/ fnord/ babylonian cuneiform was just added in unicode 5.0, so few major lisps? ( networking and concurrency, despite my usual polemics i still think it's kind of hard
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12:06:46 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/
12:06:53 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/
12:06:57 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/
12:07:02 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/
12:07:10 <Sgeo> /m\ /m\
12:07:13 <Sgeo> ...
12:07:35 <Sgeo> Oh hi
12:11:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, what are you doing?
12:12:47 <Sgeo> Trying to trigger myndzi
12:12:53 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
12:12:53 <myndzi> |
12:12:53 <myndzi> |\
12:13:09 <Sgeo> Also being frustrated at AW SDK's clinically insane model for callbacks
12:14:32 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=SDK_Asynchronous_Operation
12:15:20 <Sgeo> Note that when you call a blocking function synchroneously, it can trigger events and callbacks
12:15:36 <Sgeo> I wish I were joking
12:16:08 <Sgeo> I'm planning to use a Monitor to make the pain go away
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12:22:11 <Sgeo> I just remembered that some "events" in the AW SDK are actually callbacks, although not termed such
12:29:37 <fizzie> Sgeo: Are you sure your name isn't just too short?
12:29:42 <fizzie> \m/ \m/
12:29:43 <myndzi> `\o/
12:29:43 <myndzi> |
12:29:43 <myndzi> (_|`\
12:29:43 <myndzi> |_)
12:30:12 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/
12:30:12 <myndzi> `\o/
12:30:12 <myndzi> |
12:30:12 <myndzi> /`\
12:30:12 <myndzi> (_| |_)
12:33:04 <oerjan> <fizzie> Narwhal seems like a popular animal, too.
12:33:14 <oerjan> duh, everyone from reddit would suggest that
12:33:57 <oerjan> <coppro> it's gutsy that the guy published it publicly without perr review
12:34:38 <oerjan> it seems likely he didn't mean to, he was just sending it to other researchers to look through but the email got seriously out of hand
12:35:51 <oerjan> and someone _else_ put it on the web iiuc
12:39:05 * oerjan saw at least one reddit comment by someone who _had_ read it and was worried about one particular point in the proof, something claimed to be polynomial in size
12:39:27 <fizzie> Like someone said yesterday, in the context of embarrassing pictures: "don't worry: what happens on the internet, stays on the internet".
12:39:40 <oerjan> XD
12:41:18 <oerjan> wtf xkcd
12:43:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Not cool, not funny, not a good comic?
12:43:34 <oerjan> just wtf :D
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12:45:54 <fruitbag`> Would it be possible to device a quicksort algorithm in Brainfuck?
12:46:03 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag`, probably
12:46:11 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd go mad in the process, though.
12:46:12 <oerjan> as long as you don't interpret "quick" too literally :D
12:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag`, the complete lack of anything approaching a function call would be a significant barrier.
12:47:23 <oerjan> hm, given the cost of moving around in brainfuck, might not bubble sort really be optimal for it?
12:48:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, *everything* has a huge cost in BF.
12:48:27 <oerjan> well i mean asymptotically
12:48:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, possibly
12:48:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Swapping would have a pretty high cost.
12:48:44 <ais523> actually, I don't think quicksort would be too difficult in BF
12:48:47 <oerjan> since you have to move across things, you can just as well swap while you're doing it
12:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Mezzacotta seems to be on a good run at the moment...
12:51:42 * oerjan didn't notice anything particularly good today, although he always gives the mad scientists at least 50%
12:54:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, "good" in the sense of "fairly coherent".
12:56:12 <fizzie> mooz has written a pretty nice quicksort in Befunge-93; even if it's a bit limited due to the 80x25 playfield. Admittedly that is a far more expressive and less-painful-to-write language.
12:57:19 <fizzie> You can find it nicely syntax-highlighted at http://web.archive.org/web/20061205193036/kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/qsort.html courtesy of archive.org.
12:59:40 <fizzie> I guess it is Funge98-compatible in the sense that it can sort more data in a system like that.
13:03:22 <Sgeo> Dear Monitor: FUCK YOU
13:04:01 <fruitbag`> So, how would I do an equivalent to a for loop in BF?
13:04:25 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag`, set a cell as a counter, then decrement in []s.
13:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's not a C-style for loop.
13:05:39 <fizzie> Counting down to 0 is usually easier, though.
13:06:21 * Sgeo curses at http://pastebin.com/LDyEkQpa
13:06:31 <fizzie> (Easier than up, with a test at the end, I mean.)
13:06:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Brainfuck + lambda calculus. It must be done.
13:09:30 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag`, there are a few high-level to BF compilers, but they're underdeveloped.
13:11:17 <Sgeo> Anyone want to help me?
13:11:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, what language?
13:12:05 <Sgeo> Smalltalk
13:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Then I cannot help.
13:14:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Where you are going, I will not follow.
13:14:59 <fruitbag`> Befunge-93 is such a queer language
13:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag`, queer in the Enid Blyton sense?
13:17:25 <fruitbag`> Indeed
13:17:34 <fruitbag`> August would be another word
13:18:19 <Phantom_Hoover> There are stranger languages out there.
13:18:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Including ones that the inventors themselves don't understand.
13:18:57 <ais523> is that a Feather reference?
13:19:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
13:21:37 <fizzie> I am tempted to shamelessly self-advertise the befunge-bot to yet another new victim.
13:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, tell fruitbag` about yourself
13:21:51 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's your only potential competitor and there's no javascript or anything. they make
13:22:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ^source
13:22:05 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
13:22:26 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Good, now I don't have to do that myself.
13:22:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:22:39 <fizzie> (And it is true what e says: there's no javascript or anything.)
13:32:53 <fruitbag`> Fascinating stuff
13:33:20 <fruitbag`> The statement '[-]' decrements the value at a point until zero, right?
13:34:34 -!- jix has joined.
13:34:38 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit).
13:35:03 <oerjan> yep
13:35:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
13:35:12 -!- jix has joined.
13:36:40 * Sgeo growls
13:36:55 <Sgeo> Monitor is reentrant. Apparently I want a non-reentrant Monitor
13:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag`, [->+] is the basic copying algorithm.
13:41:18 <Phantom_Hoover> s/copying/moving/
13:41:32 * Sgeo decides that Phantom_Hoover is as sleep deprived as I am
13:41:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, no, not really.
13:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I had a fairly good night's sleep last night.
13:42:23 <Sgeo> How, exactly, is that supposed to go back to the old cell to copy more than 1?
13:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, oops.
13:42:52 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag`, ignore everything I say from now on.
13:46:30 -!- fruitbag has joined.
13:48:40 -!- fruitbag` has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
14:17:36 <fruitbag> Sorry, Phantom_Hoover...
14:17:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Why...?
14:17:47 <fruitbag> I wasn't ignoring you
14:17:59 <fruitbag> Something came up and I was AFK
14:18:13 <Phantom_Hoover> You were supposed to ignore me!
14:18:28 <fruitbag> Alright, so you raised the question of moving a byte from one cell to another
14:18:36 <fruitbag> What is the general algorithm?
14:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, there needed to be a < at the end of the loop.
14:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Uh, [->+<], I think.
14:20:29 <fruitbag> - was decrement that pointer or memory cell?
14:20:42 <fruitbag> That is, decrement contents or pointer?
14:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Brainfuck doesn't have pointers.
14:21:06 <fruitbag> Of course
14:21:21 <fruitbag> What I meant was the region being pointed
14:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> - decrements the cell under the tape head.
14:25:01 <fizzie> It is a bit annoying that it kills the old value, though. Actually copying a cell tends to involve something uglier like [>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-] and need a spare cell there.
14:26:04 <fruitbag> Yes, that makes sense
14:26:25 <fruitbag> Bascially, we are decrementing the contents from one cell and incrementing by the same amount in another
14:26:30 <fruitbag> Until the source cell is zero
14:29:07 <fruitbag> Suppse that I wanted to traverse eight consequtive cells...
14:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> >>>>>>>>, in essence.
14:29:40 <fizzie> Another sometimes useful construction is >[-]+<[>-<]>[xxx-]<; that does xxx if current cell (at start) is zero; it's basically [xxx[-]] except the test is negated.
14:30:22 <fizzie> Whoops, that [>-<] should be [>-<[-]] there.
14:30:59 <fizzie> It also looks like an angry horizontal-smiley.
14:31:54 <fizzie> (Away; getting from work to home now.)
14:39:35 <fruitbag> Alright, so let me get this straight....
14:42:01 <fruitbag> But, man -- wouldn't that decrememnt the contents of each consequtive cell by one?
14:43:10 * Phantom_Hoover prefers functional esolangs for this very reason
14:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, are you talking about fizzie's construction?
14:46:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It sets the cell being tested to 0 and the next one to 0 or 1; the xxx can have its own side-effects.
14:51:30 <fruitbag> Alright, so how do we incremement the position while decrementing the contents of a cell statically?
14:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure whether arbitrary lookup is even possible in BF, at least without the tape being explicitly structured.
15:01:33 <fruitbag> [>-<]: "Increment the pointer, decrement the contents of the new position and go back until zero is reached."
15:02:00 <fruitbag> This doesn't do much
15:02:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, fizzie got that wrong.
15:02:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It should be [>-<[-]]
15:03:03 <fruitbag> Alright, so...
15:04:03 <fruitbag> So, what exactly happens with that one, Phantom_Hoover
15:04:55 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it is possible
15:05:01 <ais523> (arbitrary lookup, that is)
15:05:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, oh?
15:05:10 <ais523> the trick is to move all the data along the tape
15:05:16 <ais523> in order to give room for a bunch of temporaries
15:05:24 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, destructive as hell, surely?
15:05:30 <ais523> no
15:05:39 <ais523> as in, say the tape starts out as abc12345678
15:05:47 <ais523> where the letters are temporaries and the numbers are data
15:05:51 <ais523> you change it to 1abc2345678
15:05:59 <ais523> then 12abc345678
15:06:00 <ais523> and so on
15:06:05 <ais523> moving the data past the temporaries
15:06:07 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, >[-]+<[>-<[-]>is effectively equivalent to logical not.
15:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> data[i+1] = !data[i]; data[i] = 0
15:06:58 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, oh.
15:07:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing that without some sort of compiler (or even macro system) seems like a road to insanity.
15:07:49 <fruitbag> Speaking of sanity, I think mine is on the verge
15:08:05 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, that's normal here.
15:08:27 <fruitbag> Phantom_Hoover: I just want to go somewhere and be alone for a few weeks.
15:08:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Understandable.
15:10:20 <fruitbag> Phantom_Hoover: it's even worse if you live in a big city
15:16:38 <fruitbag> How would one reverse a string?
15:18:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, having an effective swap algorithm would be a good start.
15:19:31 -!- relet has joined.
15:19:49 <ais523> transfer-add a to a temp, b to a, then the temp to b
15:20:00 <ais523> that's a relatively fast swap
15:20:08 <fruitbag> Hmmm
15:23:59 -!- tombom_ has joined.
15:24:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, if you null-terminate the string at each end, that might be enough.
15:26:07 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:29:07 -!- cpressey has joined.
15:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, Mr. Pressey. I've been expecting you.
15:29:43 * Phantom_Hoover strokes his cat
15:31:45 <fizzie> ^rev a string
15:31:46 <fungot> gnirts a
15:31:49 <fizzie> ^show rev
15:31:50 <fungot> >,[>,]<[.<]
15:32:00 <fizzie> Okay, so it just reads it in and prints out in the opposite order.
15:37:01 -!- alise has joined.
15:46:17 <fruitbag> Interesting stuff
15:47:21 <Sgeo> "World disconnects need to be avoided at all costs"
15:47:24 <Sgeo> Love you, AWSDK
15:51:39 <fruitbag> Is there a variant of BF that allows one to specify numbers?
15:52:02 <fruitbag> For instance, if I wanted to place 10 at a cell, instead of doing ++++++++++ I would do 10+
15:52:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably.
15:52:18 <fruitbag> 10+[-]
15:52:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It's easy enough to implement.
15:53:00 <ais523> there's a bunch of BF abbreviations like that
15:53:13 <ais523> BF Joust writes it as (+)*10, for instance
15:54:33 <fruitbag> Guys, I think I have an idea...
15:54:40 <fruitbag> For a for loop
15:55:38 <fruitbag> What if we form of statement that would go back to the intial cell?
15:55:55 <fruitbag> That is, it would go forward incrementally and at the same time go backward decrementally
15:56:33 <fruitbag> We have an intial value, go forward once, go backwad once (and decrement once) then go forward twice and so on
15:56:43 <ais523> that sounds about right
15:56:53 <ais523> although it depends on what you're using the loop to do
15:57:24 <fruitbag> Initial value, forward once, backward once (decrement by one), forward twice, ...
15:57:36 <fruitbag> ais523: traversing a specified number of cells
15:58:30 <fruitbag> Initial value, forward once, backward once (decrement by one), forward twice, backward twice (decrement by one), forward by three, backward by three (decrement by one), ...
15:58:39 <fruitbag> I'm not sure how to implement this, though
15:59:57 <fruitbag> Any thoughts?
16:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> So this is for "apply code to n consecutive cells"?
16:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> In which case adding 1 to each cell that needs to be operated on and zeroing the next one is probably simpler.
16:05:23 -!- Flonk has joined.
16:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you were the one asking if Star Trek (2009) was worth watching
16:07:27 <Phantom_Hoover> s/$/?/
16:08:58 <fruitbag> I don't understand why people write 'Brainf*ck' when they are writing academic articles
16:09:03 <fruitbag> Surely, we are all adults...
16:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, because. We had a long discussion on this last night
16:09:35 <fruitbag> Really?
16:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, not Brainfuck specifically. Censorship in general.
16:10:13 <fruitbag> I see
16:10:24 <fruitbag> It's ridiculous, really...
16:10:42 <fruitbag> Phantom_Hoover: if vulgar words are used artistically and tastefully, then I'm for it
16:10:50 <fruitbag> If they are used just for the sake of being used, I'm against it
16:11:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, that was the consensus.
16:11:13 <fizzie> fungot's bf interp does the rle-style thing on output, and internally, but it doesn't allow it as input.
16:11:14 <fungot> fizzie: the code would be
16:11:27 <fizzie> ^def test bf +++++
16:11:28 <fungot> Defined.
16:11:34 <fizzie> ^show test
16:11:34 <fungot> +5
16:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> ^help def
16:11:45 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:11:59 <Phantom_Hoover> What langs does it support?
16:12:11 <fizzie> lang=bf/ul, like it says.
16:12:49 <fizzie> No others so far, though I do have a standalone M-code interp I could finish and integrate in theory.
16:15:21 <fruitbag> Get a load of this -- I just read that some rich Arab payed 9 million for a number plate that is just "1"
16:16:01 <fruitbag> I suppoes there are indeed good ways to spend a shitload of money on
16:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Meh. Someone in Asia payed an inordinate sum for 5.
16:23:20 <Gregor> How much would you have to pay for ""
16:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, how much does a 5-digit number cost?
16:25:09 <ais523> Gregor: I don't think a zero-length numberplate would be allowed
16:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> In Unlambda, is `c the current continuation?
16:25:48 <ais523> no, not exactly
16:25:56 <ais523> `ci will get you the current continuation
16:26:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so c is call/cc.
16:26:13 <ais523> what c does is to grab a continuation that causes c to retroactively return with the value it's given, and pass it to c's argument
16:26:16 <ais523> yep, c is call/cc
16:26:22 <HackEgo> No output.
16:29:10 <fizzie> There was that photo circling around the internet where someone had written a SQL injection thing on a self-made car numberplate, supposedly to foil those automatical speeding-ticket camera machines. (I doubt it actually work-worked anywhere, but still.)
16:30:31 <fizzie> http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/03/for_traffic_cameras.jpg that is.
16:34:18 <fruitbag> What operating system do you guys use?
16:34:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Every OS under the sun/
16:36:16 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: So, something that runs on a Sparc?
16:36:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, someone here probably does
16:37:13 <fizzie> I have a SPARCstation 5 in the basement, does that count?
16:37:25 <fizzie> (It's nice, but makes a whole lot of noise.)
16:37:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. Yes it does.
16:39:24 <fizzie> To answer more seriously, my gut tells me the channel might be somewhat Linux-dominated, but I'm sure there are exceptions.
16:39:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:47:35 <fruitbag> Well, I'm in my workshop now and we use a multitude of OSes
16:47:45 <fruitbag> I was tinkering around with Haiku OS last night
16:48:01 <fruitbag> It's a hunka junk
16:54:06 <alise> Wha?
16:54:15 <alise> Have they ruined BeOS?
16:54:51 <alise> Anyway, yes, this channel is Linux + Windows with a few holdouts.
16:54:54 <alise> cpressey uses FreeBSD/
16:54:56 <alise> *FreeBSD.
16:55:01 <alise> In fact Windows is very rare too.
16:55:20 <alise> So I'd say almost all Linux, maybe two to three windows, and ... cpressey.
16:56:18 <pikhq> And a handful of OS X usage.
16:56:30 <alise> Distros, not so sure; I'd expect a plurality, but not necessarily a majority, of Ubuntu, one or two Debian (fizzie and Gregor (well, sidux, but it's basically the same thing)), a few on Arch (Deewiant, AnMaster (sometimes), me),
16:56:31 <pikhq> Oh, wait, that'd be the holdouts.
16:56:32 <pikhq> :P
16:56:42 <alise> and two on Gentoo (pikhq and AnMaster).
16:56:48 <alise> pikhq: Oh yeah; jix is OS X.
16:57:10 <pikhq> The common theme is, of course, UNIX.
16:57:19 <alise> comex uses OS X and Linux I think
16:57:32 <alise> Warrigal and Slereah use Windows unless Slereah finally got Linux working properly
16:57:38 <alise> Sgeo uses Windows because of his shitty games
16:57:43 <alise> etc
16:57:50 <alise> *etc.
16:58:03 <fizzie> The okkklo pol is Windowsy too, wasn't he?
16:58:15 <alise> Yes. But also Ubuntu on one of his laptops.
16:58:18 <alise> But Windows now, I think.
16:58:23 <alise> Also, "is ... wasn't"
16:58:29 <coppro> I don't use Windows
16:59:02 <alise> I never said you.
16:59:07 <fizzie> I do have that OS X laptop too, but I guess this was more "use for the most of the time" type of question.
16:59:14 <alise> Did I say you, coppro?
16:59:15 <coppro> I will probably download a legit copy through the MSDNAA next year, but not because I like Windows
16:59:15 <Sgeo> Hmm
16:59:24 <coppro> alise: I like to feel important
16:59:26 <alise> <alise> So I'd say almost all Linux, maybe two to three windows, and ... cpressey.
16:59:26 <alise> *Windows
16:59:27 <alise> >_>
16:59:27 <fruitbag> What machines are you guys using right now?
16:59:28 <alise> coppro: :D
16:59:34 <pikhq> zzo38 uses Windows, shockingly.
16:59:43 <Sgeo> I'm seriously considering having announcement handlers run in separate processes and all be run in 1 monitor
16:59:44 <alise> pikhq: Until he switches to ZZO38NUX
16:59:45 <fruitbag> I'm using a Lenovo Thinkpad T60
16:59:51 <pikhq> fruitbag: Handbuilt $300 desktop.
16:59:53 <fruitbag> Running Windows 7
17:00:02 <pikhq> Graphics card is shit, everything else is rather reasonable.
17:00:03 <alise> fruitbag: Toshiba T150 running Arch Linux.
17:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a crappy Acer. I may get a better computer soon, but then my decisionphobia kicks in.
17:00:17 <fruitbag> Nice
17:00:22 <alise> At least, I think it's a T150.
17:00:23 <fruitbag> Acer is quite nice, Phantom_Hoover
17:00:26 <Sgeo> alise, please tell me that what I said is close enough to "single-threaded" as to seem pointless
17:00:34 <Sgeo> And non-dangerous
17:00:37 <alise> 13.3" screen, 1.33 GHz ultra-low voltage processor, 4 GiB of RAM.
17:00:43 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, well, yes. It's fine in all non-graphicsy respects.
17:00:45 <fruitbag> I remember having an Acer before it was well-known in 1997
17:00:48 <coppro> s
17:00:48 <alise> It can almost decode 1080p with full AV synchronisation, so I'm happy with its performance.
17:00:54 <alise> I have a Microsoft optical mouse plugged in :P
17:01:10 <coppro> I have a T500
17:01:10 <Warrigal> alise: I no longer use Windows.
17:01:10 <fizzie> This box too doesn't really have a model name, and listing all the specs sounds a bit too boresome.
17:01:12 <coppro> <3 TP
17:01:19 <alise> Warrigal: Okay. What do you use? OS X? Linux?
17:01:25 <fizzie> T500 sounds like a terminator model.
17:01:35 <Warrigal> Usually OS X, sometimes Linux.
17:01:41 <fruitbag> On eBay, there's a bunch of low-grade ARM Windows CE junk
17:01:43 <coppro> this thing has awful graphics but a beast of a processor (for compiling)
17:01:45 <fruitbag> At around 50
17:01:57 <alise> fruitbag: Yes, but Why Would You Want To.
17:02:10 <alise> I do own a ridiculously shitty "netbook"; 7" screen, ARM, and running a bastardised Debian.
17:02:12 <fruitbag> Just for itnkering
17:02:19 <alise> I got proper Debian on it but broke it with one tiny error. Sigh.
17:02:23 <fruitbag> alise: Chinese stuff?
17:02:28 <alise> fruitbag: Nah, "Ubisurfer"
17:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, for DESTRUCTION
17:02:48 <alise> It's the cheapest netbook ever, apparently. Comes with FREE FREE GPRS internet which /proxies to a Windows server running IE and sends back images of the page/
17:02:50 <alise> (I am not joking.)
17:02:53 <fruitbag> Sharp have released a nice device they call the Netwalker, I think
17:02:57 <fruitbag> Is that the right name?
17:02:57 <alise> Cost like £150 so, ha.
17:03:05 <alise> fruitbag: Apparently.
17:03:12 <alise> I pretty much hate netbooks.
17:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Free GPRs? I should have thought that they were standard.
17:03:15 <fizzie> There's a Debian in my phone, too. (Okay, so it's Maemo, but close enough.)
17:03:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: GPRS internet :|
17:03:23 <alise> and only for proxying to IE
17:03:31 <fruitbag> ARM-based stuff is secure
17:03:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, madness.
17:03:39 <fruitbag> Actually, not entirely...
17:03:56 <fruitbag> You can never be entirely immune if you are using Mozilla on every architecture
17:03:58 <alise> fruitbag: I also own a 2006 iMac, a relatively new low-spec computer in an old, old case that I don't use...
17:04:09 <alise> Does an iPhone count as a computer?
17:04:12 <alise> fruitbag: Buh?
17:04:15 <alise> What does ARM have to do with security?
17:04:19 <alise> What does Mozilla have to do with security?
17:04:34 <fruitbag> alise: ARM isn't mainstream
17:04:42 <alise> Well, yeah, no shit, neither is Linux.
17:04:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, nonexecutable memory is an arch-level security feature
17:04:51 <fruitbag> alise: Mozilla is a mainstream browser that is a popular target
17:04:53 <alise> But the mainstream argument is bunk; it's UNIX's security model that saves it.
17:04:56 <cpressey> I use Windows here (at work) and Linux (Ubuntu) at home. I used to run primarily FreeBSD, but that was a few years ago now.
17:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover> But I doubt a RISC would have it.
17:05:04 <alise> fruitbag: Once targeted you could only run native code, though, if you wanted to do anything interesting.
17:05:08 <alise> So ARM is safe anyway.
17:05:17 <alise> Anyway, it's more the OS.
17:05:27 <alise> Windows is simply fundamentally flawed wrt its security model...
17:05:36 <fruitbag> alise: I once had an idea of a secure setup: two machines -- one for internet-based stuff and another for work and storing data.
17:05:45 <alise> Secure setup: Properly sandboxed operating system...
17:06:00 <alise> Anyway, if you use Linux and don't run programs with "sudo" unless you know what they do... you're fine#
17:06:02 <fruitbag> One machine would never be connected at all
17:06:04 <alise> s/#$//
17:06:13 <coppro> alise: make that mostly fine
17:06:26 <cpressey> Ubuntu makes my home laptop an unenjoyable piece of junk, but at least it runs -- I don't trust any *BSD to install on such a fragile profile of hardware as a laptop, and they all have such crud package managers.
17:06:34 <fruitbag> And for backing up, two seperate hard drives
17:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, your security features on that OS we were discussing were... mad.
17:06:54 <fizzie> Unless I misremember, mooz had a non-internetted primary-use computer at some point; used a serial link to transfer selected data files when necessary, and never anything executable.
17:06:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Madder than everything else.
17:06:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Mad in a good way, I hope :D
17:07:03 <coppro> you can still lose your homedir, and kernel exploits could give a root. Kernel exploits are far rare than <RANDOM APPLICATION> exploits
17:07:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, EVERYTHING RAN IN RING 0.
17:07:12 <alise> Anyway it's basically a blend of E's and Newspeak's security systems.
17:07:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yeah.
17:07:26 <alise> But that's just to avoid context-switching.
17:07:30 <fruitbag> fizzie: sure, but even that serial link could put the machine in danger in some way
17:07:39 <alise> fruitbag: No ... it couldn't
17:07:46 <alise> OSes don't just randomly run code that comes in on ports.
17:07:52 <alise> You're a bit paranoid.
17:07:58 <fizzie> alise: There could be an exploit in the serial port driver, you see!
17:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, remember Lumenos? He was more paranoid.
17:08:21 <fruitbag> The safest way to transfer data between machines is by a USB flash stick
17:08:23 <alise> Right. That's likely, you know, because serial ports are so hard to get right.
17:08:25 <alise> So much potential for error.
17:08:35 <alise> fruitbag: do you actually put this system into practice? Surely you realise how hopelessly impractical and overly paranoid it is.
17:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> He always links to the HTTPS version of Wikipedia.
17:08:48 <fruitbag> No, alise... I abandoned the idea
17:08:50 <alise> fruitbag: Besides, haha...
17:08:54 <alise> fruitbag: There could be an exploit in the USB driver.
17:08:56 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, THERE COULD BE A BUG IN THE USB DRIVERS!
17:08:56 <fizzie> It's also no safer than a serial link.
17:08:58 <alise> Just as much as the serial port driver.
17:09:03 <alise> Oh snap, channel-wide epiphany
17:09:15 <coppro> OH MY GOD... I BELIEVE IN GOD NOW!
17:09:26 <fizzie> Especially if the other computer is Windows; wasn't there that relatively recent USB-stick-driven seek-some-industrial-control-system virus?
17:09:31 <fruitbag> I suppose the setup is indeed overly paranoid
17:09:34 <fizzie> (Since those tend to be not connected to the interwebs.)
17:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> You should be using transfer methods rooted entirely in userspace!
17:09:38 <alise> I daresay that USB drivers are much more likely to be broken than serial port drivers.
17:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Monolithic kernels are innately insecure!
17:09:51 <fruitbag> A better idea would be to make the internet machine ARM-based
17:09:55 <fruitbag> Something that isn't mainstream
17:09:58 <alise> I think you just like ARM too much.
17:10:02 * cpressey blinks
17:10:03 * Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose
17:10:07 <alise> You knows, OSes don't just randomly run machine code in ring 0.
17:10:09 <fruitbag> Well, I suppose it could be MIPS-based too
17:10:10 <cpressey> Is this conversation actually taking place?
17:10:13 <alise> x_x
17:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, except yours
17:10:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, it runs Lisp.
17:10:24 <alise> cpressey: Apparently.
17:10:30 <coppro> `addquote * Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose
17:10:35 <HackEgo> 208|* Phantom_Hoover sticks crayons in his nose
17:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Lisp which is compiled, hence making binary distribution the least secure thing ever.
17:10:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Er, no.
17:11:03 <alise> It only runs source Lisp, which it compiles itself.
17:11:15 <alise> There is no method to execute machine code outside of the top security level.
17:11:22 <alise> Below, it's just Lisp.
17:11:23 <Phantom_Hoover> And with a single buffer overflow...
17:11:28 <alise> In what?
17:11:35 <Phantom_Hoover> In something.
17:11:36 <fruitbag> What is the least secure programming language?
17:11:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's remarkably vague.
17:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, define "secure".
17:11:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure you've thought this exploit through.
17:12:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, it is for an OS which hasn't been thought through.
17:12:23 <fruitbag> Phantom_Hoover: for instance, since there is no array bounds checking in C, buffer overflow security holes are common
17:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> fruitbag, assembly, then.
17:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Or InsecureLang, which I shall invent now.
17:12:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I'm 99.9999% certain my security model works. :P
17:13:40 <fizzie> That's a lot of nines; is this one of the 89 % of statistics that are made up on the spot?
17:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> All programs will allow the execution of arbitrary code if the word "foo" is typed in at any point of their execution.
17:13:59 <cpressey> alise: The traditional argument against (e.g.) Lisp and for context switching is that Lisp (or any other VM) can't get the performance of compiled code. But the alternative is all that time taken context switching -- I haven't regularly believed the argument.
17:14:00 <alise> fizzie: The exact figure is 74%.
17:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, compiled Lisp.
17:14:25 <alise> cpressey: My architecture was a Lisp compiler. Everything ran in ring 0, but because the Lisp had a very strong security model, it was safe.
17:14:51 <alise> cpressey: Since you could only pass Lisp to be executed, and there was a very strong total sandboxing system in place, it's even safer than typical UNIX-based OSes.
17:15:07 <alise> cpressey: Everything runs in ring 0 because one single call could end up talking to the hardware via e.g. the keyboard driver.
17:15:17 <alise> So instead of switching into kernel and back all the time, we just run everything in ring 0.
17:15:43 <fizzie> Is this the "safe assuming no implementation errors" definition of "safe"?
17:16:16 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, it appears so.
17:18:02 -!- alise has left (?).
17:18:04 -!- alise has joined.
17:18:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Lumenos was currently" --Lumenos
17:18:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, Lumenos.
17:18:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I have an article on Lumeniki now.
17:18:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Lumenikilu Fun fact: Capitalising the first letter of a word makes it plural.
17:19:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do link.
17:19:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/PhatTom_Hoover
17:19:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I love him now just for the picture.
17:22:31 <alise> clearly Ubuntu 11.04 will be "Niggardly Nigger"
17:22:42 <alise> (NOTE: Only one word in that sentence is hideously offensive.)
17:23:05 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, have you worked out a sensible way of mapping disc to memory yet?
17:23:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. I propose we use flux capacitors.
17:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> But we're going for standard x86-64 hardware, aren't we?
17:24:25 <alise> Augmented with flux capacitors.
17:24:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Why not make it a TwoDucks OS, then?
17:25:21 <alise> Because of mogulic misappropriation.
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17:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Does Haskell allow you to define monads that aren't functors?
17:29:22 <alise> Yes; this is a flaw.
17:29:32 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
17:29:33 <alise> I believe Monad originated before Functor, so there is not the dependency.
17:29:57 <alise> IIRC there is a Monad instance in the standard library which is not a functor (in the mathematical sense); this is an egregrious abuse, but there you go.
17:30:19 <Phantom_Hoover> In what sense isn't it mathematical?
17:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> s/mathematical/functorial/
17:30:44 <alise> Because it does not obey the functor laws.
17:31:30 <alise> ie.
17:31:31 <alise> fmap id = id
17:31:34 <alise> fmap (f.g) = fmap f . fmap g
17:31:45 <alise> *i.e.
17:32:47 <alise> Oh jeez, Emacs depends on gconf.
17:32:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously?
17:32:57 <alise> Yep.
17:33:01 <alise> The GTK+ version, at least.
17:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that makes some sense.
17:33:18 <alise> The kind of sense that makes me want to slap people.
17:33:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
17:33:45 <alise> Because dammit I don't want gconf.
17:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Why not?
17:34:35 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..).
17:35:05 <alise> Because I don't want GNOME components on my system; and because gconf not only requires a daemon to run at all times, but is very hard to change keys in -- you can't just edit the files, really.
17:36:22 <alise> ... of course, since I don't have gconfd running, Evince won't actuall yremember my settings but will still have the daemon installed.
17:39:07 <alise> *actually remember
17:41:14 <alise> I need a single word that means "of note". :|
17:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Notable
17:42:23 <alise> Yeah, another one.
17:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Ununnotable
17:42:48 <alise> No.
17:43:51 <pikhq> alise: There's a Monad instance that's not a functor? Said Monad instance is clearly not a monad.
17:43:55 <pikhq> And hence this is a bug.
17:44:08 <alise> pikhq: Of course; but a well-established one, just like Monad not being declared as Functor => Monad.
17:44:16 <pikhq> alise: Which instance?
17:44:20 <alise> People loathe to change the standard library, quite understandably.
17:44:26 <alise> pikhq: I'm not sure.
17:44:28 <pikhq> I loathe the standard library.
17:44:57 <alise> pikhq: Have you read the Epitome?
17:45:15 <pikhq> alise: No.
17:45:24 <alise> http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf
17:45:46 <alise> The finest Epigram implementation there is! The only Epigram implemention there is!
17:46:01 <alise> Written in beautiful Strathclyde Haskell Extension, typeset by beautiful LaTeX!
17:46:09 <alise> To be compiled with the beautiful glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation system!
17:46:37 <pikhq> Sadly, said LaTeX is not microtype'd.
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17:46:44 <alise> pikhq: You can /tell/?
17:46:47 <alise> Hi ais523.
17:46:51 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
17:46:55 <alise> pikhq: How???
17:47:04 <alise> The T vs the i on the first page?
17:47:05 <pikhq> alise: Lack of margin kerning.
17:47:07 <ais523> hi
17:47:10 <alise> Well, page 7.
17:47:11 <alise> pikhq: Is that it?
17:47:19 <ais523> what's this debate about?
17:47:32 <alise> ais523: pikhq has been given a PDF typeset with LaTeX
17:47:35 <pikhq> Most of the other microtypography stuff is not noticable outside of comparisons.
17:47:42 <alise> ais523: he has been able to /recognise/ that it has not been \usepackage{microtype}d
17:47:50 <ais523> impressive
17:47:50 <alise> ais523: because of a lack of a specific microtypographical correction
17:47:58 <alise> I am busy being astonished that he has managed to do this.
17:48:10 <alise> pikhq: Which two lines gave it away?
17:48:13 <pikhq> (the character shrinking and stretching is only noticable in that it generates less ugly hyphenation
17:48:25 <alise> And what sect of Buddhism do I have to study to reach this kind of enlightenment?
17:48:38 <pikhq> alise: Look at any line with ending terminal punctuation. This is what makes it *most* obvious.
17:48:43 <pikhq> Erm. Ending punctuation.
17:48:44 <alise> The character shrinking and stretching sucks a bit though, because you have to disable ligatures for it to work properly, which disables quotes etc.
17:48:53 <alise> even if you do it specifically avoiding disabling quotes
17:49:01 <alise> ligatures get disabled even at small spacings
17:49:05 <alise> where they would be beneficial
17:49:24 <alise> pikhq: But there aren't any to start with.
17:49:30 <alise> Anyway, whatever, it's just an Epigram implementation :P
17:49:32 <pikhq> The letter spacing changes are also only noticable in that they generate less ugly hyphenation...
17:49:41 <alise> You said that.
17:49:47 <alise> Oh, letter spacing.
17:49:48 <alise> Okay.
17:49:55 <alise> To prove that statement, we first show that any Tm {In, VV} p which is not a N t is not a
17:49:56 <alise> neutral term. This is obvious as we are left with lambda and canonicals, which cannot be stuck.
17:49:58 <alise> Yeah, I see it there.
17:49:59 <pikhq> Page 9.
17:50:05 <pikhq> Tons of it.
17:50:11 <alise> Ah, you mean commas?
17:50:15 <alise> Okay; I see it there.
17:50:24 <pikhq> Yes, commas also get kerned on the edge.
17:50:49 <pikhq> Also, though this requires more attention to detail, you would be able to see other characters getting kerned.
17:50:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, by the way. This has bugged me about the Epitome for ages.
17:51:07 <Phantom_Hoover> What does the Bwd constructor do?
17:51:13 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell :i Bwd
17:51:14 <alise> Oh, none of us have actually /read/ the thing.
17:51:15 <pikhq> For instance, that "k" on the second line of the second paragraph of page 9 would be partially in the margin.
17:51:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: See page 251.
17:51:36 <pikhq> As would the "T" on the very start of the first paragraph on page 9.
17:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> _o_
17:51:42 <myndzi> |
17:51:42 <myndzi> /'\
17:51:46 <alise> data Bwd x = B0 | Bwd x :< x
17:51:46 <alise> i.e.
17:51:51 <alise> data Bwd x = B0 | (<:) (Bwd x) x
17:51:55 <alise> i.e., a reverse list.
17:51:58 <alise> There's also
17:52:04 <alise> data Fwd x = F0 | (:>) x (Fwd x)
17:52:08 <alise> which is obviously the regular list structure.
17:52:44 <alise> "This always succeed." --Conor
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17:57:57 <alise> How does one enable XeTeX's microtypographical support?
17:58:32 <Phantom_Hoover> What is Epigram actually used to research?
17:58:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Dependent types.
17:59:05 <pikhq> alise: Doesn't exist yet.
17:59:06 <alise> It's not actually actively being using to /research/ i.e. write papers and shit.
17:59:06 <cpressey> alise: Oh damn, you found the Epitome too? I was trying to read it. It's hilarious.
17:59:11 <alise> It's more an experimental vehicle.
17:59:18 <alise> cpressey: Hilarious because of Conor's humour, or what? :P
17:59:24 <cpressey> I can't tell what's a technical term from type theory and what's kidding.
17:59:30 <Sgeo> Epitome?
17:59:38 <alise> cpressey: Either you said that before or someone else thought the same.
17:59:47 <alise> Sgeo: http://www.e-pig.org/darcs/Pig09/src/Epitome.pdf
17:59:49 <cpressey> I had said it before :)
18:01:02 <cpressey> "References are the key way we represent free variables, declared, defined, and deluded."
18:01:16 <cpressey> Deluded is *probably* kidding. But who knows?
18:01:42 <alise> pikhq: So, wait, XeTeX does no microtypographical adjustments?
18:01:47 <alise> pikhq: But that's /half the point/ of XeTeX!
18:02:50 <pikhq> alise: Actually, the point of XeTeX is to support OpenType features.
18:02:56 <alise> So, uh, anyone know of a panelly thing for X11 that doesn't suck? A clock, systray icons, and a windows list, that's all I'm lookin' for.
18:03:18 <pikhq> It doesn't yet support the microtype portions of OpenType.
18:03:44 <alise> 02:25:19 <GreaseMonkey> i left it way too late to chip in but i have a friend who thinks he may have an O(n^4) algorithm for turning NP into P
18:03:46 <alise> He's full of shit.
18:03:47 <pikhq> (likewise, it doesn't yet support the vertical text layout portions of OpenType)
18:03:55 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:03:56 <alise> pikhq: Well that's fucking useless.
18:04:12 <alise> Can you get Linux Libertine in ... a format that pdfTeX supports?
18:04:59 <cpressey> alise: The fact that "I don't want GNOME components on my system" isn't regarded as a valid desire is one of the defining problems of our generation (whatever that means)... it goes along with "This is just an accretion of hacks and features that were slapped on one-by-one" not being a valid criticism of a code base.
18:04:59 <pikhq> http://www.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/help/Catalogue/entries/libertine.html
18:05:29 <pikhq> Oh, it's part of TeX Live.
18:05:32 <pikhq> \usepackage{libertine}
18:05:39 <alise> pikhq: <3
18:05:49 <alise> pikhq: Does it support all the nice ligatures and stuff? I hope so.
18:06:04 <pikhq> Should.
18:06:23 <alise> pikhq: Sir, that doesn't automatically set the text font. Whaddo I do
18:06:47 <pikhq> Uh?
18:07:35 <alise> pikhq: \usepackage{libertine} still uses Computer Modern fonts by default.
18:07:40 <alise> It seems I have to do more to set it as the default font.
18:07:42 <pikhq> Oh, hey. "XeTeX now supports margin kerning along the same lines as pdfTeX"
18:07:53 <alise> Okay, but this is fine too. I'm more comfortable with pdfTeX. :P
18:08:20 <alise> What's that command you use in the quotation environment, name \*flushright for some *, to set the author?
18:08:22 <alise> Like, you do
18:08:33 <alise> \somethingflushright Awesome Person
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18:09:10 <pikhq> I dunno.
18:11:59 <coppro> http://sourceforge.net/projects/webadmin/forums/forum/600155/topic/3801603
18:12:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:12:32 <alise> 04:43:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Not cool, not funny, not a good comic?
18:12:37 <alise> fizzie's secret identity is revealed
18:12:59 <alise> coppro: gahahaha
18:13:13 <alise> well, okay, it's not that funny
18:16:31 <Sgeo> http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2010/august/134484/Al-Jazeera-on-college-TV-station-causes-concern
18:16:49 <alise> http://www.win.tue.nl/~gwoegi/P-versus-NP/argall.txt
18:16:50 <cpressey> "instance Naperian Bwd where -- cheeky!"
18:17:08 <alise> "a controversial network"
18:17:13 <alise> Al Jazeera is a controversial network?
18:17:24 <alise> Waaaaah ... I want to cry ...
18:17:32 <Sgeo> alise, some of the comments are worse
18:18:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, I assume you mean that fizzie is Randall Munroe?
18:18:05 <alise> No.
18:18:11 <alise> That fizzie is sjeforgotthenumbers.
18:18:27 <alise> "This is a government funded college and thus should only promote the United States of America. Not a fascist idiology of anti-American hate from those who are sworn to kill all of us as they are of wiping Israel off the map. The sooner you liberal knuckle-heads understand that salient point the clearer your thought processes might become."
18:18:30 <alise> I think -- hope -- this is a joke.
18:18:32 <fizzie> Or maybe, just possibly, I've just been reading the forums approximately thrice?
18:18:43 <alise> Inconceivable.
18:18:50 <alise> How dare you lie>
18:18:51 <alise> *lie?
18:19:08 <alise> pikhq: I forgot to \usepackage[T1]{fontenc}. *headdesk*
18:19:15 <fizzie> I lie where I lay.
18:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, if that's a comment, it's not a joke.
18:19:32 <alise> fizzie: Insert Shakespearean pun.
18:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover_> The world is full of idiots.
18:19:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover_: You know, some people /do/ use humour.
18:19:51 <cpressey> I hope that "P=NP is undecidable" proof is a joke, too, but it's not.
18:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> cpressey, proof?
18:20:13 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover_: alise's link
18:20:23 <Sgeo> I.. don't quite get it
18:22:47 <alise> pikhq: How does one set the default mathematics font in LaTeX?
18:23:46 <alise> Wow; evince segfaults on this PDF.
18:27:48 <cpressey> Oh, nice, Epigram is MITL'd.
18:28:09 <cpressey> Er, Epitome, or whatever their implementation is called, I mean.
18:28:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> MITL?
18:28:35 <cpressey> Hate it when language and implementation are conflated like that.
18:28:48 <cpressey> Do try to keep up, Phantom_Hoover_.
18:29:31 <Phantom_Hoover_> I have no idea what MITL means!
18:29:43 <alise> cpressey: Their implementation has no name; you just check out it, and all the associated components, from the "Epigram" repository. The way you interact with the implementation is called the Cochon interactive theorem prover.
18:30:02 <alise> That has the "data T := (c:T); ..." stuff and the "make x : T" stuff, etc.
18:30:21 <alise> But the expressions and the implementations of these syntaxes et al. is part of the implementation.
18:30:29 <cpressey> alise: They do say "the source code of Epigram is available..." Which always bugs me.
18:30:33 <alise> The Epitome is the name of the properly-typeset implementation.
18:30:44 <alise> cpressey: Yes, but that's {"An Epigram Implementation", Cochon, ...}
18:31:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
18:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> #
18:31:28 <cpressey> I know what they "probably mean" but I still regard it as a bad habit.
18:32:16 <cpressey> Too many people can't make the distinction -- no need to encourage it through more "abuse of notation" like that. Anyway, just my pet peeve.
18:33:10 * Sgeo gibbers at Reddit being down
18:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it... isn't.
18:35:17 <Sgeo> Not anymore
18:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, there is more to life than Reddit.
18:36:35 <alise> www.reddit.com works, reddit.com doesn't
18:39:35 <alise> What's the LaTeX command to set not initial line indentation of a paragraph, but indentation of all following lines?
18:41:06 <coppro> <3 Spivak
18:41:22 <coppro> "The best way is to draw pictures; but this requires a chapter all by itself."
18:42:23 <alise> What's that from?
18:43:03 <coppro> his Calculus textbook
18:43:09 <coppro> (he's talking about functions)
18:45:40 <cpressey> tokenEq t = (|id ~ () (% tokenFilter (== t) %)|)
18:45:57 <cpressey> I've never seen that syntax in Haskell before... is this SHE stuff?
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18:52:15 <alise> pikhq: \usepackage[libertine} doesn’t do the “Qu” ligature.
18:52:38 -!- alise has left (?).
18:52:39 -!- alise has joined.
18:52:42 <alise> Which sucks.
18:54:13 <alise> cpressey: So do you really use FreeBSD as a day-to-day OS?
18:54:43 <cpressey> alise: I used to. Meaning, no. But I have, in the past.
18:55:10 <pikhq> alise: :(
18:55:25 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a "Qu" ligature?
18:55:55 <cpressey> Upside: the kernel is actually well written. Downside: all BSD package managers suck. Java support was almost nonexistent. The userland is still largely GNU anyway. Etc, etc.
18:56:52 <alise> cpressey: What do you use now?
18:56:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In Libertine, yes.
18:57:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Q’s tail flows underneath the u.
18:57:09 <Phantom_Hoover> How do I see it?
18:57:17 <alise> Do you have the Linux Libertine font installed?
18:57:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
18:57:27 <alise> Switch to it on IRC. XChat, yes?
18:57:33 <cpressey> alise: Ubuntu. Sadly. Can I call it Ubuntoad? That, and Cygwin-under-Windows-7.
18:58:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Switched to it?
18:58:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
18:58:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Query.
18:58:17 <alise> “Quite how we are to perform this feat, I am not certain,” admitted the dean.
18:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Coool.
18:58:23 <alise> Q Q Q Qu
18:58:25 <alise> Q u
18:58:36 <Phantom_Hoover> This font is indeed cool.
18:58:55 <alise> Q​u <-- with zero width space inbetween
18:58:58 <alise> Q​u Qu
18:59:03 <alise> The former is how it apperas in LaTeX.
18:59:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It is a pretty nice typeface.
18:59:34 <alise> A bit too... subtle for freetype to render properly, but all other fonts suck more, so I’m using it on IRC.
18:59:34 <Phantom_Hoover> As a typography illiterate, I can confirm thi.
18:59:49 <alise> I especially like the capital “M”. The little slant! It’s so cute.
18:59:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also: “Th” is a ligature.
19:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> :)
19:00:10 <alise> Type “T”, then “h”. Note the transformation.
19:00:21 <alise> T​h Th <-- Zero-width spaces to the rescue.
19:00:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll have days of fun with this!
19:00:37 <alise> f​i fi <-- The fi ligature.
19:00:46 <alise> f​l fl <-- The fl ligature.
19:00:54 <alise> f​f ff <-- The ff ligature.
19:00:59 <alise> (Those are a bit more subtle.)
19:01:04 <alise> (Though the unligatured fi is hideous.)
19:01:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also nice is Biolinium, Libertine’s sans-serif sister.
19:01:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I know this.
19:01:33 <alise> Okay.
19:01:43 <alise>  <-- Thank Libertine for this.
19:01:48 <alise>
19:01:54 <alise>
19:02:10 <alise>  is pretty bizarre; does it show up as wavy lines for anyone else?
19:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
19:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, that's not much help.
19:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It stays as wavy lines in my terminal.
19:04:00 <ais523> alise: it's a black circle for me
19:04:25 <alise> ○ ○
19:04:25 <alise>
19:04:25 <alise>
19:04:32 <alise> ○ ○
19:04:32 <alise>
19:04:33 <alise>
19:04:36 <alise> ○ ○
19:04:37 <alise>
19:04:38 <alise>
19:04:53 <alise> ○ ○
19:04:53 <alise>
19:04:53 <alise>
19:04:57 <alise> ○ ○
19:04:57 <alise>
19:04:58 <alise>
19:05:01 <alise> ○ ○
19:05:02 <alise>
19:05:03 <alise>
19:05:06 <alise> Yayy
19:05:10 <alise> ○ ○
19:05:11 <alise>
19:05:12 <alise>
19:05:14 <alise> It is perfect!
19:05:16 <alise> The face is complete.
19:07:28 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no it isn't.
19:07:34 <alise> Yes it is. Why isn't it?
19:07:36 <Phantom_Hoover> The nose is off-centre.
19:07:45 <alise> Looks centred to me.
19:08:00 <alise> “I wish I had some sort of XChat plugin that properifies my quote marks.”
19:08:06 <alise> And makes -- into a real em-dash.
19:08:12 <Phantom_Hoover> That's because you're a FASCIST.
19:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, compose key?
19:08:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Is not automatic.
19:08:22 <Phantom_Hoover> It's there for a reason.
19:08:31 <alise> Oh wait, I can just make substitutions for ``, '' and --.
19:08:32 <alise> Awesome!
19:09:41 <alise> ``Testing.''
19:09:42 <alise> Whaat.
19:09:43 <HackEgo> No output.
19:09:46 <alise> Oh, it needs to be a word.
19:09:48 <alise> Supremely lame.
19:11:41 <alise> Wow, you’re meant to use an en-dash rather than a hyphen when it’s an adjective attached to multiple words, e.g. “Civil War–era”.
19:11:45 <alise> At least according to this random website.
19:12:49 <alise> Wikipedia doesn't seem to back this up.
19:13:27 <pikhq> alise: It's something that varies from style guide to style guide.
19:14:14 <alise> Hah, Unicode can't mark up superscript-th, for all its useless superscripts and subscripts.
19:15:22 <alise> pikhq: Clearly, the preferred usage should be {Civil War}-era.
19:15:27 -!- AnMaster has joined.
19:15:55 <pikhq> alise: Clearly. :P
19:21:56 <alise> I want a programming language! Stat!
19:22:02 <coppro> C
19:22:10 <alise> Meanwhilst:
19:22:11 <alise> http://conservapedia.com/Counterexamples_to_Relativity
19:22:16 <alise> coppro: No! Another one! Stat!
19:22:27 <alise> The theory of relativity is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions. It is heavily promoted by liberals who like its encouragement of relativism and its tendency to mislead people in how they view the world.[1] Here is a list of 24 counterexamples: any one of them shows that the theory is incorrect.
19:22:58 <alise> [[The action-at-a-distance of quantum entanglement.[5]
19:22:59 <alise> The action-at-a-distance by Jesus, described in John 4:46-54.]]
19:23:16 <alise> Juxtaposing quantum entanglement with Jesus for the same purpose: Hilarity defined.
19:23:21 <coppro> alise: D
19:23:34 <alise> coppro: You're just going through the alphabet!
19:24:15 <coppro> B is a programming language too!
19:24:22 <alise> So is E!
19:24:24 <alise> And A+!
19:24:30 <alise> And M! If you use that name instead of MUMPS.
19:29:51 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that article is one of the funnier ones.
19:30:18 <alise> they have "Black holes" in the list of liberal pseudoscience
19:33:18 <alise> theory: fax uses conservapedia
19:33:24 <alise> that would explain the insanity & the wikipedia hatred
19:34:23 <alise> Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it. But I'm not entirely convinced. When the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light. And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--Andy Schlafly 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)
19:35:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You know that WM I described to you?
19:36:30 <alise> "On this site we encourage *thinking* in a logical way.--Andy Schlafly"
19:38:22 -!- cal153 has joined.
19:42:06 <coppro> whoa
19:42:20 <coppro> I never knew the government could be this helpful
19:47:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:49:26 <alise> coppro: ?
19:50:26 -!- tombom_ has joined.
19:54:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, there?
19:55:36 <oerjan> 08:15:21 <fruitbag> Get a load of this -- I just read that some rich Arab payed .9 million for a number plate that is just "1"
19:55:43 <oerjan> 08:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Meh. Someone in Asia payed an inordinate sum for 5.
19:55:58 <oerjan> i think those were the same country, it was in a newspaper here
19:56:26 <oerjan> Qatar or Kuwait or something like that
19:58:05 <oerjan> hm abu dhabi
19:58:17 <alise> Qatar is a bad name for a country because it does not utilise the Qu ligature.
19:58:24 <oerjan> (part of UAE)
19:58:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, apart from the previously mentioned panos recently I took some obviously non-pano photos with my phone from a moving car on the way home (I don't have the google setup sadly!). http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/ if you are interested. If you can recommend some software to generate a minimalistic static gallery page I would be happy. Nothing that wouldn't wor
19:58:29 <AnMaster> k in links2 -g that is.
19:59:25 <fizzie> I've used a Java thing for a static album dealie, but I'm not sure I'd go and recommend it.
20:00:09 <AnMaster> hm
20:00:39 <oerjan> incidentally the top google hit when i tried to find it was a blog saying it was saudi arabia, but i am 100% sure that is wrong (and a later google hit said abu dhabi)
20:00:41 <alise> for x in *; do echo "<p><img src=$x>" >>index.html; done
20:00:49 <fizzie> It also seems to have become confusing, with some sort of free hosting plan and iPhone apps and whatnot.
20:01:07 <fizzie> The do-it-yourself solution is always a possibility, too.
20:01:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, that involves a lot of work I'm not willing to spend
20:02:02 <fizzie> Or the "thumbnails with bash-oneliner of convert, ls | sed to create the album page" approach in my case.
20:02:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, so for now wget -r -np http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/ and eog on the resulting directory
20:02:54 <fizzie> Or just clickety-click in the browser.
20:03:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, that involves more clicking ;P
20:03:25 <AnMaster> two clicks for next image
20:03:43 <AnMaster> http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/images/gothenburg2010/trip_home/Bild032.jpg might need some explanation...
20:03:44 <fizzie> It's O(n), anyway. (Or, well, I guess eog can do some sort of automatic-advance slideshow, maybe.)
20:04:03 <AnMaster> I don't know the English word for hemvärnet
20:04:07 <fizzie> Isn't mewtwo some sort of pokeymon?
20:04:09 <AnMaster> but that building used to be that
20:04:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, I didn't decide naming scheme of servers
20:04:32 <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
20:04:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, XD
20:04:57 <oerjan> `addquote <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
20:05:01 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA*
20:05:04 <HackEgo> 209|<cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
20:05:04 <alise> AnMaster: <alise> for x in *; do echo "<p><img src=$x>" >>index.html; done
20:05:09 <cpressey> Oh no!
20:05:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, as the domain name implies it is an irc network (you wouldn't like it I think). I'm an oper there. Not the one deciding on naming scheme though.
20:05:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:05:24 <alise> <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
20:05:24 <alise> wat
20:05:29 <AnMaster> alise, hm, needs some </p> and such
20:05:31 <AnMaster> but good idea
20:05:32 <alise> AnMaster: nope
20:05:35 <alise> AnMaster: <p> is perfectly valid
20:05:38 <alise> (without unterminated </p>)
20:05:40 <AnMaster> alise, I don't do HTML5, sorry
20:05:45 <alise> AnMaster: in HTML4.1 Strict
20:05:51 <AnMaster> alise, I don't do that either
20:05:54 <fizzie> He only speaks XML, you see.
20:05:55 <AnMaster> I prefer xhtml
20:06:01 <alise> fizzie: yeah, but that's just because he's fucking stupid.
20:06:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually S-Expressions too, but no browser does that
20:06:19 <cpressey> They may be crazy, but I'm with them on the "black holes are probably a complete fiction" platform.
20:06:42 <alise> cpressey: x_x
20:06:44 <fizzie> <irc:message recipient="#alise">How so&interrobang;</irc:message>
20:06:45 <AnMaster> cpressey, that doesn't explain the evidence for them in the form of gravitational lenses and so on
20:06:51 <alise> cpressey: That is... vanishingly unlikely.
20:07:18 <alise> Wow... I think I just disproved the Riemann hypothesis.
20:07:20 <alise> http://pastie.org/1082326.txt?key=kt6ybknat9le7iodnlxzxw
20:07:22 <alise> You heard it here first.
20:07:33 <alise> P!=NP, !Riemann... a lot of interesting theorems being proved recently!
20:08:01 <AnMaster> alise, I want to see this published in a peer-reviewed paper first :P
20:08:13 <alise> Published in a paper?
20:08:25 <cpressey> AnMaster: "Gravitational lensing" is a complete *guess* as to "why the sky appears like that there".
20:08:27 <AnMaster> alise, well, if you actually *proved* it...
20:08:37 <alise> AnMaster: You fail at terminology.
20:08:43 <oerjan> alise: black holes not actually existing as singularities isn't that unlikely
20:08:44 <AnMaster> alise, well, disproved it
20:08:46 <alise> Besides, I didn't; I disproved it.
20:08:51 <AnMaster> alise, still
20:08:54 <alise> AnMaster: You don't publish things in papers.
20:08:57 <AnMaster> alise, I used proved in the old sense
20:08:57 <alise> You publish papers in journals.
20:09:06 <AnMaster> alise, err right
20:09:08 <AnMaster> typo
20:09:10 <cpressey> A peer-reviewed newspaper!
20:09:21 <fizzie> cpressey: A peer-reviewed toilet paper.
20:09:36 <fizzie> Real Men of Science only use that stuff.
20:09:39 <alise> oerjan: ok, but black holes altogether?
20:09:43 <AnMaster> you would be able to publish in any journal of your choice if your disproof passes peer review
20:09:50 <alise> AnMaster: yes, but I was announcing it here first.
20:09:56 <alise> so that people can take a look at it and maybe point out flaws
20:10:04 <alise> I'm submitting it to Annals of Mathematics tomorrow if all goes well.
20:10:10 <alise> I'm sure oerjan can back me up.
20:10:10 <AnMaster> alise, well, my math is not nearly up to scratch in that area
20:10:13 <alise> oerjan: http://pastie.org/1082326.txt?key=kt6ybknat9le7iodnlxzxw
20:10:32 <AnMaster> alise, and yes oerjan could probably help
20:10:32 <oerjan> alise: it might also be that horizon never actually forms (it's apparently consistent to assume that happens infinitely far in the future from our viewpoint, after all)
20:10:42 <oerjan> *the horizon
20:11:08 <fizzie> Incidentally, speaking of photography, I took a minute of handsfree video from the Assembly main hall, in the interests of trying out the panotools-driven time-lapse stabilization trick to make it un-shakey. It's unfortunately a pretty boring sight; just a bunch of flashing lights.
20:11:22 <alise> oerjan: any comments on my disproof?
20:11:45 <AnMaster> alise, hm is this a constructive proof? As in you can show a specific value it is wrong for, or provide a way to construct such a value?
20:12:00 <alise> AnMaster: Erm, the Riemann hypothesis states that such a value exists.
20:12:09 <alise> Oh, no, wait.
20:12:11 <alise> I see what you mean.
20:12:13 <alise> My disproof specifies that.
20:12:22 <alise> AnMaster: it is not a constructive proof, but then a great many mathematical proofs aren't
20:12:30 <AnMaster> indeed
20:12:39 <alise> constructing a value is probably possible but I have no idea what kind of techniques you'd use
20:12:44 <alise> Mine is a simple proof by contradiction.
20:12:44 <AnMaster> alise, doesn't it state that *all* _non-trivial_ 0 lies on a specific line
20:12:51 <alise> Yes; I handle this.
20:13:02 <alise> A trivial 0 = negative even number.
20:13:07 <AnMaster> indeed
20:13:28 <AnMaster> or something like that
20:13:35 <AnMaster> I don't remember the specific details
20:13:47 <AnMaster> alise, anyway what about that P!=NP proof?
20:14:18 <alise> what do you mean, what about it?
20:14:31 <fizzie> alise: Is it correct, of course.
20:14:36 <fizzie> alise: I assume you've already grokked all about it!
20:14:50 <AnMaster> as in, who made it and who checked it
20:14:54 <fizzie> It's only 100 pages of pure math.
20:14:58 <alise> it was authored by a competent computer scientist working at a high position in a large coroporation, it was sent to a bunch of high-profile computer scientists to review; it got published not by the author, but by someone else (so he didn't just post a non-peer-reviewed paper)
20:15:11 <fizzie> But it hasn't been conclusively checked yet.
20:15:14 <alise> I think it's possibly true -- he's not a crank -- but probably flawed but useful.
20:15:21 <AnMaster> I have to say however I will be less surprised if it is proven that P!=NP than if P=NP is proven.
20:15:23 <alise> AnMaster: it was only published by "accident".
20:15:34 <alise> P=NP doesn't mean much, the constant factor could be G_64.
20:15:39 <AnMaster> well yes
20:15:51 <AnMaster> alise, but it *could* also be quite small
20:16:02 <alise> Could, yes, but that's the kind of assumption I'm not willing to make.
20:16:04 <AnMaster> alise, and did it stand up to other people checking it.
20:16:20 <AnMaster> alise, well indeed. I'm not assuming it is small.
20:16:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's only 3 days since it first appeared. experts are discussing it as we speak.
20:16:50 <AnMaster> I'm not assuming it is large either
20:17:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, who?
20:17:03 <oerjan> the godel's letter blog had a post on it today
20:17:06 <AnMaster> ah
20:17:14 <cpressey> "However, the suitable track record of Vinay Deolalikar and his proof, which stated that P was smaller than NP for infinite time Turing Machines, lessen the chances of errors."
20:17:15 <AnMaster> okay so it passed outside this channel
20:17:17 <AnMaster> good thing
20:17:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: um that P != NP proof has nothing to do with #esoteric
20:17:47 <cpressey> Infinite time? Hello!
20:17:53 <AnMaster> cpressey, to me that looks slightly incoherent
20:18:06 <cpressey> oerjan: No no! Vinay is a long-time esolang enthusiast!
20:18:08 <fizzie> "“But enough question-dodging!” you exclaim. “Is the proof right or isn’t it? C’mon, it’s been like three hours since you first saw it—what’s taking you so long?” Well, somehow, I haven’t yet found the opportunity to study this 103-page manuscript in detail."
20:18:14 <oerjan> cpressey: there are lots of variations of P vs. NP question
20:18:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh thought it did
20:18:20 <oerjan> cpressey: um you serious? :D
20:18:23 <AnMaster> *shrug*
20:18:35 <cpressey> oerjan: ...
20:18:50 <fizzie> There's already this: http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=456 -- "If Vinay Deolalikar is awarded the $1,000,000 Clay Millennium Prize for his proof of P≠NP, then I, Scott Aaronson, will personally supplement his prize by the amount of $200,000. I’m dead serious—and I can afford it about as well as you’d think I can."
20:19:08 * alise ponders whether to install a Flash version with a known security vulnerability.
20:19:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, I thought someone in here claimed something about working on a secret P?=NP proof
20:19:13 <AnMaster> was it agur?
20:19:17 <oerjan> cpressey: he _could_ be from here, not everyone here has revealed their real name
20:19:20 <alise> Hmm ... hmm ... yes.
20:19:20 <AnMaster> err spelling
20:19:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh that's cpressey :D
20:19:42 <cpressey> oerjan: It's *my claim* that he invented the following languages: Spray, SixBucks, and KomputerNO.
20:19:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right, I initially thought we talked about that proof
20:19:57 <oerjan> but i sincerely doubt his real name is something indian
20:19:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, I have been on holiday, I haven't been able to keep up with news
20:20:06 <alise> cpressey: you forgot Findimate
20:20:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, only been on from slow hotel wlan a few hours every day
20:20:23 <alise> cpressey: And "Six Reversed Quail Sausages".
20:20:46 <cpressey> oerjan: "there are lots of variations of P vs. NP question" -- but I've *read* the def'n from the Millenium Prize committee, and I don't remember anything about "infinite time".
20:20:48 <AnMaster> * alise ponders whether to install a Flash version with a known security vulnerability. <-- why not go for a secure one... oh wait that is unlikely to exist
20:21:28 <alise> cpressey: http://logcom.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/5/577
20:21:48 <alise> two co-authors
20:21:58 <alise> AnMaster: they retracted the native 64-bit version
20:22:01 <alise> AnMaster: for linux
20:22:08 <alise> AnMaster: so the only available one is an older one with some known vulns
20:22:10 <AnMaster> ah
20:22:15 <AnMaster> alise, nspluginwrapper?
20:22:18 <alise> and i'm hideously irresponsible :)
20:22:19 <AnMaster> or whatever it was called
20:22:27 <alise> AnMaster: has some mouse click issues and i think AV sync is a bit wonky
20:22:35 <alise> (sometimes/often mouse clicks won't register)
20:22:47 <AnMaster> alise, youtube? I find youtube-dl and mplayer or vlc gives better result anyway
20:22:54 <AnMaster> just the the last version
20:23:06 <AnMaster> since the one in ubuntu and arch is too old to work with youtube atm
20:23:06 <oerjan> cpressey: by "variation" i mean other questions that are slightly different (often by adding an oracle)
20:23:12 <alise> Well ... the OS X users have a lovely browser plugin that replaces YouTube videos with an embedded native video player.
20:23:18 <AnMaster> it's a single file to download
20:23:20 <alise> But I don't think there's anything similar for other browsers.
20:23:20 <AnMaster> and chmod +x
20:23:57 <pikhq> alise: Shame, too.
20:24:06 <pikhq> The Flash player for Youtube sucks ass.
20:24:08 <cpressey> oerjan: OK, the article is sloppily referring to his *previous* (circa 2003) proof about infinite-time TMs. He has maybe extended the results to finite-time.
20:24:15 <fizzie> alise: There's some sort of "youtube enabler" for Firefox Mobile on N900 -- which I don't think did Flash properly, unlike the default browser -- that might do the same trick; haven't tried it.
20:24:16 <alise> Maybe I'll WRITE ONE! Okay, does anyone know if Greasemonkey is available for Midori?
20:24:29 <alise> It has user script support. Hoorj!
20:24:31 <oerjan> (in fact one of the main known obstacles to proving P ? NP is that the proof must not work if you add an oracle, because it's known that some oracles have P^O = NP^O and some have P^O != NP^O
20:24:32 <alise> "Youtube without Flash Auto"
20:24:35 <oerjan> )
20:24:37 <alise> Wow, what a coinkydink.
20:24:51 <alise> / @description Adds links below the Youtube video to (a) download the video (HD .mp4 file, no converters are used, no external sites) (b) view the video with an embedded external player (like mplayerplug-in or the totem plugin)
20:24:55 <alise> mplayer yay I like mplayer.
20:25:21 <alise> community/gecko-mediaplayer
20:25:22 <alise> Browser plugin that uses gnome-mplayer to play media in a web browser
20:25:22 <alise> Yes please
20:25:28 <cpressey> oerjan: I never understood why you cannot simply say "I have a proof that P != NP when there is no oracle"
20:25:35 <fizzie> I think mplayer's plugin thing had some real issues way back then. But I'm sure it's been improved in the last five or so years.
20:26:23 <AnMaster> cpressey, "because no one thought of doing that"?
20:26:40 <cpressey> You can also say "I have a 'natural' proof that P != NP -- therefore certain one-way functions do [not?] exist" (or however that goes)
20:26:59 <oerjan> cpressey: of course you can, the problem is that _most_ methods in complexity theory allow you to add an arbitrary oracle to a proof
20:27:29 <oerjan> cpressey: heh
20:27:30 <cpressey> oerjan: I have no doubt we're using crap methods, is the thing :/
20:28:07 <alise> cpressey: natural proofs of P!=NP don't work, no?
20:28:19 <oerjan> cpressey: well hopefully this guy found a non-crap method :)
20:28:23 <alise> "Notably, assuming one-way functions exist, these proofs cannot separate the complexity classes P and NP."
20:28:24 <alise> ha
20:28:24 <alise> *ah
20:28:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, did you look at alise's disprof of Riemann
20:28:38 <alise> disprof!
20:28:43 <alise> *disproof
20:28:47 <cpressey> "...it seems to introduce some thought-provoking new ideas, particularly a connection between statistical physics and the first-order logic characterization of NP." from Scott Aaronson's blog.
20:28:53 <cpressey> If he's using physics -- oi.
20:28:58 <alise> He is.
20:28:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: i looked at the page, then my brain promptly ran away screaming
20:29:00 <alise> Statistical physics.
20:29:04 <cpressey> alise: Then -- oi.
20:29:09 <alise> Oui.
20:29:39 <AnMaster> wtf is "statistical physics"?
20:30:05 <cpressey> I sure hope it's mathematically defined.
20:30:26 <cpressey> "We measured the running time of several Turing machines and concluded that..."
20:30:50 <AnMaster> alise, btw that disproof you made was done by some proof checker right?
20:30:58 <AnMaster> it has a certain structure to it
20:31:01 <alise> AnMaster: nope
20:31:05 <AnMaster> hm
20:31:13 <alise> AnMaster: i used a CAS to simplify the expressions though
20:31:22 <cpressey> If the proof checker in question is Alise, maybe
20:31:27 <AnMaster> alise, anyway yeah I can't help you check it due to my brain also running away screaming
20:31:36 * alise runs away screaming for effect
20:31:40 <AnMaster> XD
20:31:58 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_physics
20:32:05 <cpressey> alise: Maybe you should take it to ##math or whatever it is. (Haha.)
20:32:38 <cpressey> The thing is, you see, and I hesistate to point this out but, you see, um well, Turing machines aren't physical, er, objects, you know?
20:32:52 <alise> cpressey: Presumably it's using some other facet of statistical physics ...
20:32:53 <AnMaster> alise, but if the proof was that short I strongly suspect someone else would have found it by now. Of course it could be correct, but you shouldn't be disappointed if it isn't
20:32:57 <cpressey> *Mathematical results from statistical physics* I have no problem with.
20:33:04 <alise> AnMaster: I won't be, I'm just interested.
20:33:09 <cpressey> But those are properly *in Statistics*, not physics.
20:33:19 <alise> AnMaster: anyway there is /some/ evidence to suggest that a simple proof of Fermat's Last Theorem is possible
20:33:25 <alise> i.e. proof sketches with just a few "hard" holes
20:33:27 <alise> *e.g.
20:33:38 <oerjan> cpressey: apparently random SAT instances are involved in the proof, i recall
20:33:54 <cpressey> oerjan: That sounds extremely likely.
20:34:13 <AnMaster> alise, sure. No one has found that yet though. Maybe those holes takes a lot of stuff to fill?
20:34:19 <alise> AnMaster: Perhaps.
20:34:56 <cpressey> Actually, Shannon had some proof a long time ago that "a randomly constructed formula has a big circuit", but for some reason that doesn't prove P != NP, although it totally should.
20:35:33 <cpressey> And I should totally be writing unit tests for my huge-ass infrastructure refactor right now.
20:37:40 <cpressey> Er
20:37:51 <oerjan> <alise> IIRC there is a Monad instance in the standard library which is not a functor (in the mathematical sense); this is an egregrious abuse, but there you go.
20:37:56 <cpressey> How well do I think Scott Aaronson can afford to give away 200 grand?
20:38:08 <oerjan> the functor law follows from the monad laws, surely
20:38:13 <oerjan> *laws
20:38:17 <oerjan> *-s
20:38:47 <cpressey> Pshaw. Laws.
20:39:15 <oerjan> well, i mean it must also break a monad law, then
20:39:28 <alise> oerjan: hmm
20:39:31 <alise> oerjan: I really don't recall
20:40:33 <oerjan> liftM f x = x >>= return . f
20:40:54 <oerjan> x >>= return . id = x >>= return = x, monad law
20:41:37 <alise> mm
20:42:19 <oerjan> x >>= return . (f . g) = x >>= \t -> return (f (g t)) there has to be some way to use the third monad law there
20:42:20 <cpressey> " If P≠NP is proved, then to whatever extent theoretical computer science continues to exist at all, it will have a very different character."
20:42:38 <cpressey> So... the proof DESTROYS THEORETICAL COMPUTER SCIENCE? Bitchen!
20:42:41 <oerjan> hm
20:42:52 <alise> Whaaa
20:43:07 <alise> How on earth will it change anything, it's the status quo
20:43:31 <cpressey> I think that's a friggin' narrow view of "theoretical computer science".
20:43:37 <fizzie> alise: He thinks the proof will need so unbelievably earth-shaking paradigm-shifting insights, TCS will be all about it for the rest of time.
20:43:41 <pikhq> alise: Goodness, midori is a nice browser.
20:43:46 <alise> fizzie: x_x
20:43:48 <alise> fizzie: Who said that?
20:43:57 <alise> pikhq: BTW, enable the Customise Toolbar extension to get rid of that irritating Sidepanel button.
20:43:58 <fizzie> alise: Himself, paraphrased a bit by myself.
20:44:00 <pikhq> It has... A few handy features, and nothing stupid getting in the way.
20:44:03 <pikhq> And yes, I did that.
20:44:15 <oerjan> (x >>= (return . g)) >>= (return . f) = x >>= \t -> (return (g t)) >>= return . f
20:44:21 <cpressey> alise: This is Scott Aaronson, if that wasn't clear.
20:44:30 <alise> cpressey: ah
20:45:03 <oerjan> = x >>= \t -> (return . f) (g t) = x >>= return . f . g, Q.E.D.
20:45:07 <alise> Strange. He's usually so smart.
20:45:54 <fizzie> alise: It was the immediately preceding bit from cpressey's quotation: "P≠NP is exactly the ‘expected’ answer! But proving that expected answer has been the central goal of the field for 40 years—not so much (in my opinion) because the answer itself is in serious doubt, as because of how much will need to be learned about computation on the way to the proof."
20:45:59 <cpressey> God I hate comments.
20:46:21 <alise> Comments are the peanut gallery of the internet.
20:46:41 <fizzie> Or just plain nuts.
20:47:01 <alise> Ha,
20:47:02 <alise> *Ha.
20:50:45 <alise> Why won't mplayer wooork
20:55:02 <pikhq> Now if only there were ways to disable some other features.
20:55:07 <pikhq> For instance, the URL completion.
20:55:07 <alise> pikhq: Like?
20:55:09 <pikhq> I no want.
20:55:11 <alise> pikhq: I like it :(
20:55:41 <alise> Does anyone know how to configure hardware audio volume from Linux?
20:55:44 <alise> As in literal speaker volume,
20:55:46 <pikhq> Still, least irritating browser...
20:55:46 <alise> *volume.
20:55:59 <alise> pikhq: I thought you liked Conkeror?
20:56:02 <pikhq> Or at least, least irritating 'normal' one.
20:56:20 <pikhq> alise: I do, but its UI sometimes clashes with sites.
20:59:47 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:00:48 <cpressey> alise: Since you used a theorem prover to help reformat your proof -- why not use it to check it?
21:03:55 <pikhq> I quite like how WebKit doesn't suck, in contrast to Gecko.
21:06:56 <pikhq> GAAAH
21:07:09 <alise> cpressey: I didn't use a theorem prover.
21:07:21 <pikhq> Okay, Midori blithely ignores fontconfig. I have no idea how to get it to use an un-suck font for Japanese.
21:07:22 <alise> Also, no existing theorem prover has a complete enough formalisation of the reals to have the zeta function.
21:08:30 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/bipbopbipbop
21:08:39 <alise> best channel ever
21:09:01 -!- fruitbag has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:09:20 <alise> Two Minute Sync Test Not Actually Rotated
21:09:21 <alise> "Or maybe it's rotated 360 degrees! How will you know? (Hint: use complex analysis.)"
21:10:05 <alise> Awesome, AV sync works.
21:10:25 <cpressey> alise: But surely you could pack about half of it into a lemma that only needs a rudimentary understanding of the reals, and auto-prove that, leaving the remainder easier to check.
21:10:37 <alise> Hooray for OSSv4!
21:10:47 <cpressey> Or, maybe not.
21:10:49 <alise> cpressey: you have to manually prove
21:10:52 <alise> it just checks the proof
21:10:55 <alise> (in an awkward format)
21:11:02 <alise> cpressey: Turns out theorem provers are a bit of a bitch. Anyway, my disproof is not very long.
21:11:04 <cpressey> Yes, I know - you've already *done* that though
21:11:05 <alise> It shouldn't be hard to verify.
21:11:10 <alise> No I haven't.
21:11:18 <alise> I only used a computer to simplify some simple expressions.
21:11:19 <cpressey> What have you written, if not a proof?
21:11:26 <alise> I've written a proof.
21:11:33 <alise> But not in the format it'd accept, which accepts no handwaving at all.
21:11:58 <cpressey> Yes, I'm only suggesting you rewrite (as much of it as you can) in that format.
21:12:29 <alise> Or I could just persuade oerjan to take a look at it. :)
21:13:08 <AnMaster> alise, handwaving isn't really accepted anywhere in math. It isn't like people try to routinely hand-wave use of not yet proved hypotheses and so on. Oh wait, they are.
21:13:20 <alise> Handwaving is very much accepted for trivial things.
21:13:29 <alise> You think Wiles' FLT proof would have been simple if it proved every single thing it stated?
21:13:44 <AnMaster> alise, yes I know. I was joking
21:13:50 <alise> Also, yeah, exactly, if my disproof is correct that's quite a bit of mathematics out the door...
21:13:56 <alise> So much stuff just implicitly depends on the Riemann hypothesis.
21:17:24 <AnMaster> alise, indeed.
21:18:08 <AnMaster> alise, but I would say the chances of it having a small but important flaw is more than 50%, considering how much time has been spent on trying to prove or disprove it
21:18:28 <alise> Wiles' first proof had a major flaw, but it was corrected.
21:18:37 <AnMaster> true
21:19:19 <AnMaster> alise, actually he had to redo large parts to fix it iirc
21:20:33 <alise> Large but not immense.
21:20:38 <AnMaster> true
21:20:51 <AnMaster> alise, but that is only because the complete proof was huge
21:21:24 <pikhq> Hooray, I've got HTML 5 video on youtube working.
21:21:43 <alise> pikhq: Me too; with what?
21:21:48 <AnMaster> alise, iirc it proved one or two other open problems that it then used in the "main" proof. That kind of gives you some "modularity".
21:21:49 <alise> Or do you mean YouTube's HTML5 support?
21:21:54 <alise> I've got it working with mplayer. Nyaah.
21:21:54 <pikhq> Youtube's HTML5 support.
21:21:57 <alise> pikhq: It sucks.
21:22:10 <alise> I suggest using the YouTube Without Flash Auto userscript (with some tweaking).
21:22:14 <alise> Works fine with Midori (with some tweaking).
21:22:17 <pikhq> alise: Linky?
21:22:24 <alise> Supports native (likely mplayer), VLC and HTML 5.
21:22:25 <pikhq> (or pastebin of tweaks)
21:22:28 <alise> pikhq: I'll pastie you my updated version.
21:22:35 <pikhq> Sweet.
21:23:04 <pikhq> Still, just using <video> instead of Flash is so much nicer on the CPU.
21:23:04 <alise> pikhq: http://sprunge.us/iJHe
21:23:09 <alise> Enable the relevant extension, then copy to:
21:23:14 <alise> .local/share/midori/scripts
21:23:33 <alise> It puts some crap below the video, but load a video, click Preferences, set preferred quality to highest, and select the player of your choice.
21:23:38 <alise> I'm using native since HTML 5 doesn't work for me.
21:24:03 <alise> Oh, wait, one more modification:
21:24:03 <alise> if(haveFlash) {
21:24:04 <alise> linkViewFlash = ' &diams; <a class="link" id="restoreFlash">View Flash</a>';
21:24:04 <alise> }
21:24:04 <alise> Remove this.
21:24:51 <alise> pikhq: Then load a video, click Preferences, set default quality to highest, select player, save.
21:24:56 <alise> Voila.
21:25:28 <alise> How did you get Midori's HTML5 player to work?
21:25:44 <pikhq> I installed gstreamer-plugin-faad , and the audio worked.
21:25:54 <pikhq> The other gstreamer plugins I already had installed.
21:26:41 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Still, just using <video> instead of Flash is so much nicer on the CPU. <-- youtube-dl + mplayer or vlc is quite nice too
21:27:20 <alise> gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg gstreamer0.10-bad gstreamer0.10-{bad,ugly}-plugins
21:27:21 <alise> Bring it on.
21:27:27 <alise> AnMaster: Yes, but this embeds it automatically in the page.
21:27:38 <AnMaster> alise, also that one doesn't seem to support the 4k format
21:27:43 <alise> Turns out people usually watch insignificant videos on YouTube not worth waiting for the download.
21:27:45 <AnMaster> the script I meant
21:27:47 <alise> The 4k? You mean that ridiculously over-HD thing?
21:27:50 <AnMaster> alise, youtube-dl supports it
21:27:51 <alise> Yeah, nobody uses that.
21:27:54 <pikhq> alise: Okay, so I have it installed, but it's not... Workin.
21:27:59 <alise> pikhq: Mhm.
21:28:07 <alise> pikhq: I suggest installing the mplayer browser plugin then setting it to native.
21:28:11 <AnMaster> alise, yeah, I tried it. vlc told me it had to disable Xv due to only supporting up to 2048x2048 XD
21:28:11 <alise> Or installing VLC then setting it to VLC.
21:28:18 <pikhq> alise: Aaah.
21:28:27 <alise> pikhq: Note: The mplayer plugin is a bit shit.
21:28:53 <alise> Well HTML5 now works with very staticy audio and shit.
21:29:00 <alise> I'm just installing VLC>
21:29:02 <alise> *VLC.
21:29:14 <AnMaster> alise, also what about TEXTp?
21:29:17 <AnMaster> XD
21:29:25 <AnMaster> hm iirc they dropped that, right?
21:29:39 <pikhq> alise: Doesn't appear to be in portage.
21:29:39 <AnMaster> or is it still supported?
21:29:42 <alise> Yes; it was an April Fool's joke, obviously.
21:29:46 <alise> pikhq: What, VLC?
21:29:54 <pikhq> mplayer-plugin
21:30:04 <AnMaster> alise, yes but since it was, you know, working, why wouldn't they just leave it there, but somewhat hidden
21:30:05 <alise> pikhq: That's because it requires "Gnome" mplayer and crap.
21:30:09 <alise> pikhq: Strong recommendation of VLC here.
21:30:10 <AnMaster> like have to use fmt=whatever
21:30:14 <AnMaster> manually
21:30:15 <AnMaster> in the url
21:30:15 * pikhq installs vlc
21:30:25 <alise> pikhq: You might need to install a separate VLC plugin package.
21:30:27 <AnMaster> but not in any list
21:30:35 <alise> AnMaster: Server resources. etc.
21:30:42 <AnMaster> alise, ah good point
21:30:58 <alise> Plus I think it's Google policy to erase April Fool's jokes, presumably so they don't get clogged down with the baggage of years of them.
21:31:04 <alise> Or at least de facto Google policy.
21:31:26 <AnMaster> alise, actually they left tisp and such around
21:31:33 <AnMaster> alise, but with a note on the top of the page
21:31:34 <alise> That's just static HTML.
21:31:36 <AnMaster> saying it was a joke
21:31:38 <AnMaster> alise, true
21:31:44 <AnMaster> still an 1 april joke
21:31:49 <alise> Google already have five billion pages on their website. :P
21:32:14 <alise> pikhq: You know tiling WMs that put little title bars above their windows? Do they reparent?
21:32:15 <AnMaster> alise, hm actually http://www.google.com/tisp/ doesn't have such a banner
21:33:32 <pikhq> alise: Probably.
21:33:46 <alise> pikhq: Can you do it without reparenting? There are non-reparenting tiling WMs, so...
21:33:53 <alise> I know dwm does very small window borders.
21:33:56 <alise> So a title bar isn't much more than that.
21:34:01 * pikhq quite likes having a little Flashblock userscript...
21:34:47 <alise> And why is the VLC plugin not working...
21:35:09 <alise> Great, it crashes Midori.
21:35:36 <AnMaster> heh
21:36:29 <pikhq> Wonderful.
21:37:15 <alise> process 15183: arguments to dbus_connection_close() were incorrect, assertion "connection != NULL" failed in file dbus-connection.c line 2833.
21:37:15 <alise> This is normally a bug in some application using the D-Bus library.
21:37:15 <alise> D-Bus not built with -rdynamic so unable to print a backtrace
21:38:25 <alise> Which is indeed the error I get when running Midori.
21:39:06 <pikhq> Interesting. The HTML-5 version of videos is generally higher *quality*.
21:39:22 <pikhq> Flash sucks so much it makes the video blocky.
21:39:32 <alise> pikhq: So your HTML5 player works??
21:40:02 <pikhq> alise: Just having Youtube's HTML5 support on works fine.
21:40:12 <pikhq> Not that script.
21:40:25 <alise> As does mine, apparently.
21:40:52 <pikhq> However, it doesn't work well if it's going to *scale*...
21:41:00 <pikhq> Presumably the scaling used is still naive.
21:41:20 <alise> pikhq: The volume control is hideously broken.
21:41:29 <alise> It doesn't reflect the volume you click.
21:41:48 <pikhq> EWORKSFORME
21:42:05 <alise> pikhq: Well, you can't drag the volume control.
21:42:14 <alise> Also.. the player doesn't show what's buffering.
21:42:17 <pikhq> EWORKSFORME
21:42:34 <alise> EYOUSUCK
21:42:39 <cpressey> Theorem (Shannon): With probability at least 1 - o(1), a random function f:{0,1}n → {0,1} requires a circuit of size Ω(2n/n).
21:42:40 <alise> EGIMMEYOURBOX
21:42:42 <pikhq> Sadly, any video that's been put up by an "official" source still demands Flash for no good reason.
21:42:48 <alise> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XITHbsUUlYI
21:42:51 <alise> pikhq: Try this in 1080p.
21:42:52 <alise> Epic fail.
21:43:02 <cpressey> Sorry - should be 2^n/n
21:43:12 <alise> cpressey: that's hawt.
21:43:34 <cpressey> alise: That *particular* adjective I would honestly never have occurred to me.
21:43:40 <cpressey> EGRAMMAR
21:43:45 <alise> But it /is/ hawt!
21:44:05 <pikhq> Gah, it doesn't show the damned buffering right.
21:44:12 <alise> pikhq: See, I told you.
21:44:25 <pikhq> However, it actually decodes the video in realtime. That's a nice improvement.
21:44:31 <alise> pikhq: Proposal: Userscript that, on encountering a YouTube page, removes the whole page and replaces it with a native player. Nothing else. Nothing.
21:44:37 <alise> Well, a download link.
21:45:08 <pikhq> Sounds about right.
21:45:55 <AnMaster> <alise> pikhq: Can you do it without reparenting? There are non-reparenting tiling WMs, so... <-- what is wrong with reparenting?
21:45:59 <alise> cpressey: that theorem is beautiful, where's the proof?
21:46:14 <alise> AnMaster: WM crashes -> everything crashes; change WM -> everything has to close; + more complex code
21:46:49 * alise opens ehird.tar.
21:46:54 <alise> (For the purpose of extracting files!)
21:46:59 <AnMaster> alise, so um twm isn't reparenting? Because when I initially installed slackware I once did killall twm; kwin &
21:47:09 <AnMaster> and windows didn't close
21:47:11 <cpressey> alise: one awful place, but the first i found, has a sketch: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aqregIHR3j8J:www.cs.caltech.edu/~umans/cs151/lec6.ppt+shannon+random+formula+circuit&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
21:47:25 <alise> oh wait i deleted them lmao.
21:47:25 <cpressey> ^fShannon on that page
21:47:39 <cpressey> " frustrating fact: almost all functions require huge circuits "
21:47:43 <cpressey> therefore P != NP
21:47:44 <cpressey> :P
21:48:00 <cpressey> (I know, I know)
21:48:02 <alise> my duck is evil
21:48:04 <alise> therefore P = NP
21:48:24 <alise> Startrek Voyager S01 S07 Complete » tv shows star trek video television
21:48:26 <alise> The worst torrent.
21:48:43 <Sgeo> I'd watch
21:48:52 <alise> "Star.Trek-All.11.Films.1080p.Bluray.x264.AC3-5.1-PeN"
21:48:53 <alise> *gawp*
21:49:02 <Sgeo> A half-bad torrent?
21:49:04 <alise> They missed out Galaxy Quest, though.
21:49:12 <alise> Sgeo: It's Voyager. It's ALL bad.
21:49:18 <Sgeo> I meant the films one
21:49:25 * pikhq tries mplayer with youtube-dl -g in hopes of streaming youtube videos with mplayer
21:49:34 <alise> Sgeo: http://torrentz.com/be85b3578f87c5dc739ad72cceeb3c84d1caecd1 A lot of seeders.
21:49:41 <alise> However, I'd refuse the last one, seeing as it's not in original Bl-Ray format.
21:49:53 <alise> pikhq: Erm, just give it the get_video URL.
21:50:08 <alise> pikhq: Is .m2ts the raw stuff from the Blu-Ray?
21:50:11 <alise> It is, right?
21:50:58 <pikhq> alise: get_video URL?
21:51:14 <pikhq> And yes, .m2ts should be the transport strem from a Blu-Ray.
21:51:22 <alise> pikhq: the thing all these things pass to the video
21:51:27 <alise> the url of the actual .flv/whatever
21:51:29 <alise> erm
21:51:32 <alise> pikhq: the thing all these things pass to the player
21:51:36 <alise> then just mplayer 'er up
21:51:38 <pikhq> alise: Ah.
21:51:42 <alise> pikhq: Blu-Ray does H.264 too, right?
21:51:49 <pikhq> Yes.
21:52:01 <alise> pikhq: And if a film's released in .m2ts, it won't be released in H.264 too, will it?
21:52:37 <pikhq> m2ts is the MPEG2 transport stream, which is used for Blu-Ray.
21:52:59 <pikhq> It can contain an H.264 bitstream.
21:53:02 <alise> pikhq: Ah.
21:53:08 <alise> How can I tell, without downloading, which a film was released in?
21:53:11 <alise> Is there some online database?
21:53:19 <pikhq> Wikipedia?
21:53:29 <alise> Apparently VC-1 is also a popular Blu-Ray codec.
21:53:48 <pikhq> Not Wikipedia.
21:53:48 <alise> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_(film) has nothin'
21:53:53 <pikhq> I dunno.
21:54:54 <alise> pikhq: So if I don't care about bonus features, should I prefer the .m2ts or a Blu-Ray directory?
21:55:33 <pikhq> .m2ts I *think*.
21:55:52 <pikhq> Any idea what fmt is used for "original quality" on Youtube? :P
21:56:06 <alise> pikhq: 22
21:56:09 <alise> for HD 1080p iirc
21:56:10 <alise> or maybe 24
21:56:11 <alise> I forget
21:56:27 <alise> pikhq: 38 for 4K, 37 for 1080p
21:56:28 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:56:28 <alise> I suggest 37 :P
21:56:30 <pikhq> Ah, 38
21:56:35 <alise> No, 37, man
21:56:37 <alise> You can't play 4K
21:56:38 <alise> You just can't
21:56:48 <pikhq> I was just curious.
21:57:17 <alise> Of course, that could change.
21:57:46 * cpressey needs molecule-level resolution
21:58:10 * alise sets the .m2ts downloading.
21:58:22 <alise> Now if only I had hardware that could /comfortably/ decode HD, and the HDTV was in this room.
21:59:01 <alise> cpressey: does that theorem have a specific name?
22:00:04 <alise> Any good torrent clients anyone can recommend?
22:00:24 <cpressey> alise: Apparently it's *not" "Shannon's Theorem", but it bloody well should be.
22:00:26 <alise> One with a daemon/client architecture would be good so I can avoid extra windows/terminals but still check on it.
22:01:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:01:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, incidentally, have you heard of the Conservative Bible Project?
22:01:50 <fizzie> I've used Transmission a few times; it's preety simplistic, but I do think there was a daemon.
22:01:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes!
22:02:11 <Phantom_Hoover> That was their single stupidest thing, probably.
22:02:12 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure whether the regular frontend spoke to the daemon, though.
22:02:19 <alise> fizzie: Apparently so.
22:02:24 <alise> wrt there being a daemon
22:02:51 <cpressey> alise: And yes, I agree. It is "hawt".
22:03:10 <cpressey> Sorry, I can't bring myself to say it without quotes.
22:03:23 <fizzie> There's at least a "transmission-remote" command line tool to speak to the daemon.
22:03:30 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, has P!=NP been proven?
22:03:38 <fizzie> I also recall some sort of browser interfacey.
22:03:46 <alise> The transmission-daemon program is a daemon-based Transmission session that can be controlled via IPC commands by transmission-remote(1)
22:03:59 <alise> cpressey: Don't be afraid! There is a whole world of saying-"hawt"-ness out there if you just embrace it.
22:04:09 <alise> Although nobody is ever quite sure how to pronounce it!
22:04:18 <alise> Is it "hauwht"? "hot"? "haute"?
22:04:42 <pikhq> Hrm. Seems that mplayer doesn't handle caching well when *seeking* in a stream.
22:04:57 <cpressey> It's totally haute.
22:05:13 <pikhq> Would having it just cache before going back to playing after a seek be too much?
22:05:39 <pikhq> *Otherwise*, though, mplayer + youtube-dl -g --max-quality=22 works nicely.
22:05:51 <alise> pikhq: 37
22:06:34 <alise> "Maximum peers per torrent:"
22:06:37 <alise> Guh, why would you want this?
22:07:17 <cpressey> Maybe, you don't like having too many peers, in your torrent, so you want to limit the number of peers, to a maximum.
22:07:29 <alise> :D
22:07:29 <alise> <3
22:07:42 <alise> Apparently it's actually a bit slowy-downy if it's too high due to your upload being chopped into tiny little pieces.
22:08:42 <alise> cpressey: In my way, there would be a configuration file, and if you didn't like the option that lets you limit the number of peers because maybe you want to have unlimited peers, you could disable the option, in the configuration file.
22:09:38 <alise> "A Colbert Report interview featured this project." --http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project
22:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> That was hilarious.
22:09:53 <alise> brb
22:10:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:20:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: _maybe_. the purported proof first appeared only 2-3 days ago and the experts have only barely started picking it apart to find flaws yet. what's unusual is that it's not an obvious crank proof, but it's 100 pages long and there are still many ways it could have an error.
22:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Mm
22:22:59 * oerjan notes the discussion on the Godel's Letter blog is moving fast today, with a mixture of experts, cranks and spam
22:23:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I wanted P to equal NP...
22:23:28 <cpressey> oerjan: You make me want to post a comment which is all three at once
22:24:32 <oerjan> cpressey: you cannot be both expert and any of the two others, imo
22:25:04 <cpressey> I... could be an expert spammer?
22:25:05 <ais523> experts can spam just like anyone else can
22:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, you can be an expert acting like a crank while spamming.
22:25:27 <oerjan> also your first post is moderated
22:25:58 <cpressey> Then I would just have to start off ALSO being a troll!
22:29:16 <oerjan> ais523: ok i guess there are very strong-opinioned experts. i haven't seen any on this blog yet though.
22:30:26 * oerjan might be biased from not reading many blogs
22:31:18 <oerjan> in the meantime, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3436978/explain-the-proof-by-vinay-deolalikar-that-p-np/3437006#3437006
22:31:27 * oerjan cackles evilly
22:32:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you could of course be an expert in a different field who went nuts * RIP Alexander Abian
22:33:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Blowing. Up. The. Moon.
22:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> This guy was awesome.
22:33:43 -!- tombom__ has joined.
22:33:48 <Phantom_Hoover> He compared himself to Galileo!
22:33:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I love him!
22:34:08 <oerjan> _that's_ not so unusal for cranks, i hear
22:34:13 <oerjan> *+u
22:35:23 <Ilari> P=NP? seems very difficult question. Heck, IIRC the lowest complexity class that is known not to equal P is EXPTIME...
22:35:54 <cpressey> "Specifically, we exploit the limitation that first order logic can only express properties in terms of a bounded number of local neighborhoods of the underlying structure."
22:35:56 <cpressey> ...
22:36:35 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:37:15 <oerjan> Ilari: strictly speaking TIME(f) for anything > all polynomials but < all exponentials should also work, no?
22:37:41 <oerjan> they're just not so famous i assume
22:37:59 <alise> cpressey: ?
22:38:31 <oerjan> alise: i think that's a quote from the paper
22:38:40 <cpressey> alise: It's from the supposed proof's abstract. I don't know what to make of that, is all. He's either onto something or... he... isn't.
22:38:59 <Ilari> Heck, it hasn't been yet provent that QBF requires superpolynomial time in worst case. And that would seem to be much easier to prove than to prove that P!=NP...
22:38:59 <cpressey> That in itself seems like quite an interesting claim.
22:39:38 <oerjan> Ilari: well QBF is in PSPACE, no? and P = PSPACE is also unsettled
22:39:59 <alise> thing I hate:
22:39:59 <Ilari> QBF is the canonical PSPACE-complete problem.
22:40:06 <alise> you're downloading a huge (GBs) torrent
22:40:09 <alise> your upload gets maxed out
22:40:10 <alise> and you download barely nothing
22:40:12 <alise> right at the start
22:40:14 <alise> what is up with that
22:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> QBF?
22:40:27 <oerjan> Ilari: oh i read it as BQP :D
22:40:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Quantum Brainfuck?
22:40:31 <Ilari> Just like SAT is the canonical NP-complete problem.
22:40:57 <oerjan> darn acronyms
22:41:17 * Phantom_Hoover must find more reasons to use the Qu ligature.
22:41:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: quantified boolean formula
22:42:06 <alise> "Accept the Logic of Hell: applying logic with its full force and effect, as in not denying or downplaying the very real existence of Hell or the Devil."
22:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Quake, Quentin! — ­Queen Quorum
22:42:11 <alise> the LOGIC of HELL
22:42:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's beautiful isn't it.
22:42:20 <alise> I keep trying to make my sentences use Qu just to see it.
22:42:41 <oerjan> like SAT, except you're allowed to prepend things like "for _both_ X true and false" and "for _either_ X true or false"
22:42:45 <alise> Queues Are Quite Awesome, So Perhaps I, Quentin, Will Just Talk Like This.
22:42:54 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, have you seen the time Schlafly said one of his admins was a liberal because he forgot to capitalise "hell"?
22:43:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: :-D
22:43:16 <oerjan> s/prepend/use/, although you can move them all to the front iirc
22:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> This admin later left to found his own loony wiki.
22:43:24 <alise> ooh, link?
22:43:39 <alise> "Last fall (2009) I taught Economics." Dear God.
22:43:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, that.
22:44:01 <alise> Who let this madman teach economics?
22:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC he used an example of a service that was actually a good and a good that was actually a service.
22:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, homeschoolers.
22:44:24 <alise> Touche.
22:44:26 <alise> Imagine Computer Science.
22:44:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: You must now write a Quine.
22:44:38 <Phantom_Hoover> He claimed to be a professional programmer once...
22:44:38 <alise> "Turing was a known homosexual, and his ideas have little relevance."
22:44:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: e.g. for_all X (there_exists Y such that (X or Y)) where all the variables are booleans
22:44:45 <cpressey> Who is this?
22:44:52 <oerjan> *e.g. things like
22:44:57 <alise> I am so unhappy that the term "homeschooling" has been diluted by crazy people.
22:45:01 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, Andy Schlafly, idiot extraordinare.
22:45:10 <alise> cpressey: & admin of Conservapedia.
22:45:19 <alise> & son of noted idiot extraordinaire.
22:46:01 <Ilari> Well, admin of Conservapedia => idiot extraordinare. But what is his father's claim to fame?
22:46:03 <alise> http://www.conservapedia.com/Mystery:Why_Do_Non-Conservatives_Exist?
22:46:16 <alise> Ilari: Sharing & propagating the same beliefs as his son.
22:46:34 <alise> Or was it Andy's son, I forget.
22:46:40 <alise> Nope.
22:46:43 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly
22:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Quite. I find these flamboyant ligatures quite spiffing.
22:46:50 <alise> Well, mother.
22:46:57 <alise> Phyllis McAlpin Stewart Schlafly (pronounced /ˈfɪlɨs ˈʃlæfli/; born August 15, 1924) is an American conservative political activist and constitutional attorney known for her opposition to feminism and the Equal Rights Amendment.
22:47:25 <alise> Whaa--? Andy's Catholic?
22:47:31 <alise> But the Catholic Church /accepts/ evolution!
22:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, ah, he's been clever here.
22:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> You know how there was a ridiculous debate over some bit of wording?
22:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, translation.
22:49:33 <alise> But his church ... accepts ... evolution
22:50:06 <cpressey> I guess they also accept creationism
22:50:29 <alise> They believe that biogenesis was initiated by God.
22:50:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:50:40 <alise> However, they then believe that evolution progressed normally -- although of course us humans are "speshul".
22:50:41 <Ilari> Some complexity classes have equivalent logic formulations. P is first order logic with least fixed point operator. NP is second order logic with existential operator only. PH is second order logic. PSPACE is second order logic with transitive closure operator.
22:50:54 <alise> So they brute forced the Rubik's Cube with Google's CPUs and found out that no position requires more than 20 moves to solve.
22:50:59 <alise> Another victory for brute force over mathematics!
22:51:05 <alise> If only we could brute-force statements about the reals.
22:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Well...
22:51:43 <oerjan> Ilari: is this a quote from the paper? i recall reading it uses the first fact for P
22:51:52 <cpressey> Hey, let's brute-force the nxnxn generalization of Rubik's cube too.
22:52:07 <alise> n^n generalisation
22:52:15 <zzo38> I know some more things about the Catholic Church policy. They do not reject evolution (although some Catholics do), but they use creationism as well, and recognize it is not mutually exclusive, but not because humans are special or anything like that, but because evolution will not describe the grace of God.
22:52:30 <alise> zzo38: It's not a very coherent policy.
22:52:39 <cpressey> alise: Uh... maybe?
22:52:42 <alise> "Evolution happened, but oh yeah, God created us all in the state we are in now!"
22:52:50 <alise> "I have no problems accepting blatantly contradictory statements!"
22:52:51 <Ilari> I would seem that it should be "easier" to try to settle P=PH? (IIRC, that's equivalent to P=NP?)...
22:52:52 <alise> cpressey: OH YEAH
22:53:18 <oerjan> alise: in principle you can brute-force first-order statements about the reals. real closed fields are decidable that way.
22:53:20 <zzo38> Of course there is "theistic guided evolution", which is also some people's opinion.
22:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I'm not sure if I'm equal to P.
22:53:32 <cpressey> If his P<NP proof is valid, I predict someone will simplify it
22:53:32 <alise> zzo38: That makes slightly more sense. It's about as much as you can reasonably expect from Christians.
22:53:44 <alise> (If they accepted evolution wholesale, they'd be contradicting the basic tenets of Christianity.)
22:54:05 <alise> cpressey: Any opinions on my Riemann hypothesis disproof? http://pastie.org/1082326.txt?key=kt6ybknat9le7iodnlxzxw
22:54:21 <cpressey> alise: Only that I'm allergic to the real line.
22:54:31 <alise> Achoo!
22:54:35 <alise> It's the complex plane, anyway.
22:54:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
22:55:38 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:55:41 <zzo38> alise: I think the person who invented Perl is also both Christian and evolution.
22:55:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:55:56 <alise> zzo38: You have to believe God stepped in at some point, however.
22:55:57 <zzo38> Some people are. But some people are only one.
22:56:03 <alise> zzo38: Otherwise humans aren't special, destroying Christianity.
22:56:28 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:56:35 <alise> zzo38: I dislike Larry Wall because he's a missionary...
22:57:15 <alise> I think it's pretty immoral to go and seek out random people who haven't been exposed to the world, its culture or its religion and just try and force your religion upon them.
22:57:38 <zzo38> alise: Yes, I believe you, especially doing it at random, it is just nothing useful
22:57:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:57:55 <alise> *its religions
22:57:59 <zzo38> Now, a few people do it in a better way, but many people don't.
22:58:00 <alise> Damn typos.
22:58:09 <Ilari> Apparently, if P!=PH, there exists language that second-order logic can describe, but can't be described using first order logic with least fixed point operator.
22:58:45 <alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
22:59:34 <alise> Sheesh, you'd think this torrent would go faster.
22:59:44 -!- augur has joined.
22:59:47 <alise> It's only a high-quality rip of a recent major movie release.
22:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Which one?
23:00:04 <alise> Star Trek (2009).
23:00:29 <alise> Probably the x264 re-encodes etc. are more popular than this unmodified Blu-Ray stream.
23:00:39 <alise> But still, 150 KiB/s? That's just piss-poor.
23:02:30 <alise> Does anyone here have a Usenet connection from one of the paid providers?
23:02:45 <alise> I'm wondering how good the coverage of material the binary groups have is.
23:03:27 <zzo38> Is the GNU GPL text available in TeX format?
23:03:34 <alise> Not as far as I know of.
23:03:43 <oerjan> `addquote <alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
23:03:48 <alise> zzo38: I'd just include it as \begin{verbatim}-ed stuff.
23:03:55 <zzo38> (And, I mean Plain TeX, rather than LaTeX)
23:04:01 <alise> zzo38: I'm not sure a modified version, even just for formatting as LaTeX, would count as the GPL, legally.
23:04:04 <alise> Definitely not Plain TeX.
23:04:04 <HackEgo> 210|<alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
23:04:15 <alise> Where's pikhq when you need him.
23:04:19 <alise> Anyone know mplayer?
23:04:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:04:32 <alise> Great timing! Hi pikhq.
23:04:32 <Phantom_Hoover> :O
23:04:37 <cpressey> Noice!
23:04:41 <alise> pikhq: How can I tell mplayer "Scale this down until it fits on my screen, yo"?
23:04:48 <zzo38> However, even Plain TeX can do verbatim parts, although it involves changing category codes a lot.
23:05:16 <Ilari> Hmm: "However, LFP is too weak to express all polynomial-time properties of unordered structures (for instance that a structure has even size).".
23:06:28 <zzo38> Maybe it does not really count as the GPL legally, but if it is the same text, it should be the same thing, and the FSF is probably OK with that, as long as the computer copy includes the original unmodified plain-text copy of the GPL.
23:07:28 <alise> pikhq: I can't find an option to do it.
23:09:05 <zzo38> alise: Why not Plain TeX? Plain TeX is much more better than LaTeX
23:09:21 <cpressey> I use YakTeX myself
23:09:22 <alise> zzo38: Because that's only your opinion, and the vast majority of TeX users, including me, disagree.
23:09:36 <alise> zzo38: I am saying that the GPL is almost certainly unavailable in Plain TeX, due to its obscurity.
23:10:07 <alise> Wow, it seems that mplayer successfully synchronises the audio and video, even when resizing down full 1080p video.
23:10:51 <zzo38> Is it really obscurity?
23:11:08 <alise> Plain TeX, yes.
23:11:14 <alise> LaTeX is almost universally used instead.
23:11:43 <alise> I'd estimate Plain TeX's user base is somewhere between 1,000-8,000.
23:11:58 <alise> Whereas LaTeX's user base is the entire mathematics, physics and computer science community, more or less.
23:12:04 <alise> Plus a lot of other users.
23:13:11 <zzo38> I found that the GPL is available in LaTeX, but the LGPL isn't. (The GPL is also available in ODF, the LGPL and AGPL isn't.)
23:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> *aren't
23:14:59 <AnMaster> <alise> Wow, it seems that mplayer successfully synchronises the audio and video, even when resizing down full 1080p video. <-- on my desktop it uses X video extension to do resizing and such, meaning the GPU does the work
23:15:21 <alise> Yes, but the GPU in question is an onboard Intel card.
23:15:28 <AnMaster> alise, ah that changes stuff indeed
23:15:33 <AnMaster> no clue if it can do it
23:15:38 <AnMaster> I suspect it can to some degree
23:15:43 <alise> Anyway, I can't be for sure yet since the full file isn't there, making it hard to pass judgement on what is desync due to skipping in the life and what is legit desync.
23:15:55 <alise> But the little portion of continuous audio/video has mouths perfectly synchronised.
23:15:59 <alise> So I'm hopeful.
23:16:03 <zzo38> If I rewrite the GNU GPL in Plain TeX format, will the FSF accept it and make a copy?
23:16:08 <alise> Now I need to hatch a plot to get the HDTV in this room.
23:16:14 <alise> zzo38: Mayyyybe.
23:16:22 <AnMaster> alise, I'm not surprised they are synced. They usually are with proper video players on linux
23:16:38 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, but in this case PulseAudio and ALSA both failed massively at it.
23:16:43 <alise> It's taken OSSv4 to get the latency low enough
23:16:44 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
23:16:46 <alise> *enough.
23:16:48 <alise> Woo go OSSv4
23:16:56 <AnMaster> alise, your light notebook?
23:17:09 <alise> It's a notebook that happens to be light, not a "light notebook" :P
23:17:23 <cpressey> It's a notebook MADE ENTIRELY OF LIGHT
23:17:32 <cpressey> Also known as an ANGELBOOK
23:17:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:17:33 <alise> Lumenotebook.
23:17:33 <AnMaster> alise, oh? is it dark then?
23:17:39 -!- alise has changed nick to Phanlom_Hoover.
23:17:41 <AnMaster> cpressey, damn, you beat me to joking about that
23:17:42 * Phanlom_Hoover dies of shock
23:17:44 -!- Phanlom_Hoover has changed nick to alise.
23:17:53 <zzo38> Why does nearly everyone disagree about Plain TeX being more better? But some people don't?
23:18:02 <alise> zzo38: Personal taste.
23:18:07 <AnMaster> * Phanlom_Hoover dies of shock <--- alise what...?
23:18:21 <AnMaster> zzo38, because it isn't better?
23:18:21 <alise> <alise> Lumenotebook.
23:18:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover can explain.
23:18:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, please explain this
23:18:33 <zzo38> AnMaster: Explain why it isn't better?
23:18:36 <Phantom_Hoover> GETITAWAYYY
23:18:56 <AnMaster> zzo38, I think I did before?
23:18:59 <AnMaster> some days ago
23:18:59 <zzo38> I have used both Plain TeX and LaTeX, and in my experience, Plain TeX is much more better
23:19:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, explain why
23:19:09 <zzo38> AnMaster: Which date/time?
23:19:12 <alise> Well, everyone else here thinks you're wrong.
23:19:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, um you were here.
23:19:22 <AnMaster> and don't know exactly
23:19:39 <zzo38> Do you know the date at least?
23:19:49 <AnMaster> zzo38, no
23:19:56 <AnMaster> zzo38, but why is plain tex better
23:20:00 <AnMaster> please explain why
23:20:15 <pikhq> 16:14 <+cheesworshiper> pikhq: Just remember you have to have SSH working before you can use it as a phone if you want to maintain your nerd rep.
23:20:16 <pikhq> Heheheh.
23:20:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, what is the device in question?
23:20:34 <zzo38> For one thing, I can do many more things with Plain TeX. Also, Plain TeX can do cross-referencing without requiring two passes or an external makeindex program.
23:20:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:20:45 <zzo38> And no auxiliary files are required.
23:20:54 <AnMaster> zzo38, those extra things, examples?
23:20:58 -!- Flonk_ has joined.
23:21:08 <AnMaster> zzo38, you know, I let kile or lyx handle the building
23:21:20 <AnMaster> in both cases I just click a button or hit a key combo
23:21:25 <zzo38> What extra things, examples?
23:21:25 <AnMaster> and don't need to care more
23:21:34 <AnMaster> "<zzo38> For one thing, I can do many more things with Plain TeX."
23:21:36 <AnMaster> examples of that
23:21:54 <zzo38> I have written yesweb in Plain TeX
23:21:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, is there and ready-made Plain TeX package for Karnaugh-diagrams?
23:22:09 <AnMaster> zzo38, or what about microtyping?
23:22:10 <zzo38> I don't even know what Karnaugh-diagrams is.
23:22:19 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/MfJb
23:22:29 <zzo38> That is one example.
23:22:37 <AnMaster> zzo38, a tool used to minimize boolean functions, useful when doing electronic circuits
23:22:40 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:22:46 <AnMaster> had to typeset that in a lab report last spring
23:22:53 <AnMaster> there is of course a latex package for it
23:22:55 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
23:23:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: Palm Pixi.
23:23:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, huh, never heard of that
23:23:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, also wasn't Palm like dead and undead several times over?
23:23:43 <zzo38> There are a lot of LaTeX packages for various things, but think Plain TeX does it better, if it doesn't exist I think someone can write codes for it
23:23:45 <alise> Palm Pixi = retarded Palm pre.
23:23:49 <alise> pikhq: Note that WebOS sucks shit.
23:23:53 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:23:58 <alise> By "shit" I mean "major shit".
23:24:29 <AnMaster> zzo38, well part of the point of LaTeX is that I don't have to write those things. I have deadlines, if I had to write all those I wouldn't be able to meet the deadlines
23:25:19 <zzo38> Is there a LaTeX package to do what yesweb does?
23:25:37 <AnMaster> sure I could write one of them probably, but not kaurnaugh and gauss and longtable and AMS and so on
23:25:46 <AnMaster> oh wait, AMS might exist for plain TeX
23:25:48 <AnMaster> not sure
23:25:50 <AnMaster> does it?
23:25:53 <alise> AnMaster: yes
23:25:56 <alise> AnMaster: AMS-TeX
23:25:58 <alise> by Michael Spivak
23:25:58 <AnMaster> right
23:25:59 <alise> yes, that one
23:26:05 <alise> AnMaster: undeveloped since late 80s
23:26:28 <AnMaster> alise, well, there some sort of LaTeX support for the math symbols from AMS and some enviroments
23:26:32 <AnMaster> which I used a few times
23:26:39 <AnMaster> not sure if those are in AMS-TeX too
23:26:42 <alise> yeah, that's AMS-LaTeX.
23:26:42 <cheater99> alise
23:26:45 <cheater99> munich is awesome
23:26:48 <cheater99> u should visit
23:26:50 <AnMaster> alise, is it as undeveloped?
23:26:55 <zzo38> Also, at least for me, I am more effective at Plain TeX, than at LaTeX. And writing the codes for some things should not be too difficult.
23:26:58 <alise> AnMaster: no... you use it every day
23:27:04 <alise> \usepackage{ams*} = AMS-LaTeX
23:27:08 <alise> \usepackage{amssym}
23:27:10 <alise> \usepackage{amsthm}
23:27:13 <alise> \usepackage{amsfonts}
23:27:14 <alise> etc
23:27:17 <AnMaster> alise, well yes, but I use qmail every day. Doesn't mean it is in active development
23:27:33 <alise> well, "active" as in "it needs no changes anyway since it's very polished"
23:27:38 <alise> active like LaTeX development
23:27:42 <AnMaster> ah
23:27:50 <AnMaster> alise, so active like qmail too then
23:28:50 <AnMaster> alise, and how the heck anyone can write as reliable C code for something as complex as qmail still confuses me. I guess djb is superhuman.
23:29:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't get why people view C as a good intellectual exercise.
23:30:09 <AnMaster> did I claim that?
23:30:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Memory leaks versus monads: which is harder to understand.
23:30:12 <cpressey> AnMaster: 1) be a mathematician 2) do not use the standard library
23:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, no.
23:30:23 <zzo38> It confuses me how a good programmer *cannot* write reliable C codes for a thing like that. It should be possible for any good programmer to do, without too much difficulty
23:30:34 <AnMaster> I just claimed it was tricky to write non-trivial non-buggy C code
23:30:46 <cpressey> zzo38: Are you a ham radio operator?
23:31:04 <AnMaster> cpressey, out of interest, why that question
23:31:07 <zzo38> cpressey: No. But I was thinking about doing so some time in the future, possibly (or possibly not)
23:31:17 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, assembly vs Haskell
23:31:25 <AnMaster> <cpressey> AnMaster: 1) be a mathematician 2) do not use the standard library <-- you still need to interface the OS with read() and write() or such then
23:31:29 <Phantom_Hoover> No, wait. Assembly without labels.
23:31:43 <AnMaster> cpressey, hard to avoid malloc() and friends as well. Plus a few other calls
23:31:51 <alise> zzo38: your code barely ever checks errors
23:31:59 <alise> so i wouldn't be so quick to blame other programmers
23:32:04 <alise> (at least what i've seen on it)
23:32:15 <cpressey> AnMaster: Your pedantry is adorable.
23:32:17 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I do sometimes write a very small program directly in machine-codes
23:32:31 <AnMaster> cpressey, of course. That is part of my job here
23:32:31 <alise> cpressey: Adorable for a value of adorable equal to unbearable.
23:32:31 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, very small being the operative words.
23:32:36 <zzo38> alise: Yes, it does not check a lot of errors, just to make it efficient, though
23:32:42 <alise> AnMaster: read() and write() are syscalls, you dumbass.
23:32:51 <alise> (Yes, there exists a libc wrapper, but it just calls the syscall directly.)
23:32:58 <alise> zzo38: Checking errors isn't inefficient...
23:33:08 <AnMaster> alise, well I'm pretty sure qmail uses libc there
23:33:11 <alise> zzo38: It takes ~0 time.
23:33:27 <zzo38> I do usually check some errors
23:33:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, zzo38 doesn't have the same definition of "good" as us mortals.
23:33:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I do realise /that/.
23:33:58 <alise> Quite a lot I realise that.
23:34:06 <alise> Quinn, Quite a Lot, realises Quadratics are Quines.
23:34:07 <alise> *Quines.
23:34:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, If I were a mathematician I would generalise that to "zzo38 doesn't have the same definition of * as us mortals"
23:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH writing if (!(ptr = malloc(whatever))) constantly will give you RSA.
23:34:21 <Phantom_Hoover> a/A/I/
23:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, fail
23:34:35 <zzo38> What does RSI means?
23:34:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how so?
23:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Forall x, zzo38 doesn't have the same definition of x as us mortals
23:35:00 <alise> zzo38: Repetitive Strain Injury ...
23:35:03 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, fail. Use unicode for that
23:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, globs /= mathematics.
23:35:13 <zzo38> alise: O, that is it.
23:35:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's why you define xmalloc :P
23:35:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oerjan could use a glob
23:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Fair enough.
23:35:27 <zzo38> If checking errors is important you can make a macro or extra function
23:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, he's a mathematician, though!
23:35:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathematics is what he says it is!
23:35:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that proves my point doesn't it?
23:35:53 <AnMaster> rather than your
23:36:08 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, you're not a mathematician!
23:36:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Q.E.D.
23:36:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but oerjan would probably use a glob
23:36:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also compsci is really quite like math
23:36:38 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, moreover, he doesn't call it mathematics.
23:36:42 <AnMaster> proper compsci
23:36:43 * pikhq types in the Konami code
23:36:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, ?
23:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ab
23:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, forget it.
23:37:03 <AnMaster> ah
23:37:10 <zzo38> You tell me how many things in my codes is you considered to be bad codes: http://sprunge.us/eKMF (Sometimes I find things I don't like in my own codes, and fix it, but usually that is not the case)
23:37:55 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, for (;;) is a bit... tacky.
23:38:10 <Phantom_Hoover> while (1) or while (TRUE) is nicer.
23:38:15 <alise> for (;;) is very common.
23:38:19 <alise> only idiots use TRUE.
23:38:36 <AnMaster> alise, that is very TRUE
23:38:45 <AnMaster> err sorry, I meant of course that is very 1
23:38:45 <zzo38> See? We already all disagree about how bad my codes are!
23:39:01 <alise> only idiots use TRUE in C.
23:39:07 * Phantom_Hoover doesn't
23:39:16 <cpressey> #define ever (;;)
23:39:31 <alise> #define whilst while
23:39:33 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, THAT MUST GO INTO THE NEXT VERSION
23:39:51 <alise> #define logic (1
23:39:52 <alise> #define holds )
23:39:55 <alise> whilst logic holds
23:39:55 <AnMaster> zzo38, you don't check return value of fprintf(texout,"%s\n",s); for example
23:39:57 <cpressey> I think that was really in the official Amiga OS API includes.
23:40:12 * Phantom_Hoover falls in love with the Amiga
23:40:29 <cpressey> I had the RKM, which was basically a printout of them. I lived off that thing for months
23:40:59 <AnMaster> zzo38, checking your input parsing would take more work, and I'm too tired for that atm
23:41:06 <zzo38> @d forev for(;;)
23:41:08 <zzo38> @f forev do
23:41:33 <zzo38> Why do I need to check return value of fprintf(texout,"%s\n",s);
23:41:34 <alise> zzo38: *headdesk*
23:41:35 <alise> "forev"
23:41:38 <alise> Even K&R hate you for that.
23:41:53 <zzo38> But I just type for(;;) it works fine
23:43:12 <zzo38> (AnMaster: It is easier to read my program if you print it out, in case you care)
23:43:25 <alise> Or just run it through TeX ...
23:43:53 <zzo38> You have to run it through Enhanced CWEB first, before using TeX or a C compiler
23:44:39 <zzo38> It will automatically print the index and table of contents, from this file
23:45:07 <alise> Not yesweb?!
23:45:27 <cpressey> What is yesweb?
23:45:34 <zzo38> alise: No, I am not using yesweb. For C programs, Enhanced CWEB is more better, in my opinion.
23:45:43 <alise> zzo38's NEW & IMPROVED literate programming system
23:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> More better!
23:46:00 <zzo38> But yesweb can be used for generic language-independent literate programming.
23:46:03 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, you made Enhanced CWEB yourself, right?
23:46:14 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
23:46:38 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, incidentally, that Wiles proof of Fermat's Last theorem is so *ugly*.
23:46:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sure you could make a better one.
23:48:02 <zzo38> Not right now!
23:48:23 <Phantom_Hoover> In fact, no existing OSes are written with Enhanced CWEB!
23:49:05 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, of course that is right, Enhanced CWEB has not been out for long enough anyways, and even if it is, that doesn't seem much likely
23:49:39 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a gap in the market!
23:50:33 <zzo38> There is two kind of literate programming systems, ones specific for certain programming languages, and ones for generic use, so, I have both kinds available. I think if you are writing programs in C, ones specific to C is more better, and so on. But generic use ones are needed for ones with multiple programming languages and everything like that in one file
23:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I think OS design would be considerably improved if Enhanced CWEB was involved.
23:54:32 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I think you are right, it can be.
23:54:54 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:58:17 <zzo38> (Other generic use literate programming systems include noweb and newfangle. The name "yesweb" is just a play on words from "noweb". But newfangle has the weave program implemented as LaTeX macros, but the tangle program is written in AWK. But yesweb has both tangle and weave implemented using Plain TeX.)
23:58:57 <cpressey> R
23:59:06 <cpressey> Everything should be written in R.
23:59:23 <cpressey> That is my decree!
23:59:30 <cpressey> ...
23:59:35 <cpressey> I've never even used R.
23:59:54 <zzo38> cpressey: Then learn about writing program in R, perhaps try to write a program in R, if you want to try to do so?
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