←2010-08-18 2010-08-19 2010-08-20→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:03:41 <leBMD> ...something's wrong here.
00:03:57 <leBMD> "SRCN"4(1I1NSR)&@
00:04:04 <leBMD> I'm not sure what I did wrong, but I did it.
00:06:57 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:08:46 <cpressey> AP is passing artist's conceptions of black holes off as pictures taken from a telescope. Yay for journalistic integrity!
00:09:29 <cpressey> I was all like, "holy shit we actually have a PICTURE of one, maybe I'll start believing that they exist now", and then I googled, and was all like, "oh. no."
00:10:18 <alise> You know, I'm pretty sure they exist.
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00:10:54 <cpressey> alise: As you may have guessed, I'm not.
00:11:18 <alise> I hear (of course, I'm no physicist) there's pretty compelling evidence.
00:11:26 <alise> Astronomers have identified numerous stellar black hole candidates, and have also found evidence of supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies. In 1998, astronomers found compelling evidence that a supermassive black hole of more than 2 million solar masses is located near the Sagittarius A* region in the center of the Milky Way galaxy, and more recent results using additional data find evidence that the supermassive black hole is more than 4 milli
00:11:26 <alise> on solar masses.
00:11:27 <alise> --WP
00:11:59 <cpressey> I'm glad they were compelled.
00:12:12 <leBMD> So, do you guys know what I did wrong?
00:12:20 <alise> do you have any reason to contradict the vast majority of physicists, cpressey?
00:12:27 <alise> leBMD: Nope, but that's because I don't know the problem.
00:12:33 <leBMD> "SRCN"4(1I1NSR)&@
00:12:42 <leBMD> when I open it in ccbi, it just kind of freezes.
00:13:08 <cpressey> alise: I'm not contradicting them. I have no evidence that they *don't* exist. But I find their evidence pretty slim.
00:13:23 <cpressey> "Gravitational lensing," for instance...
00:13:39 <Ilari> Well, there are numerious objects that either have to be black holes, or something even *more* exotic.
00:13:40 <leBMD> do I need parentheses in my commands that require arguments?
00:13:59 <cpressey> Gravitational lensing asks me to believe that there are lots of occurrences in the heavens of a star *exactly behind* a black hole, from our point of view.
00:14:36 <cpressey> Yet, do we have any examples of a black hole sitting in front of, say, a nebula, where it would be easy to spot, even *visually*?
00:15:51 <Ilari> Ordinary gravitational lensing involves galaxies or entiere galaxy groups performing the lensing. I think the name when black hole performs the lensing is microlensing.
00:16:57 <cpressey> Ilari: I wasn't aware of that terminology. But OK.
00:18:30 <alise> cpressey: You will make Stephen Hawking sad if you don't think black holes exist.
00:18:32 <alise> He's disabled.
00:18:35 <alise> Do you have any idea how offensive that would be?
00:18:52 <leBMD> lol
00:19:48 <Ilari> I think most serious GR replacement theories do have black holes...
00:19:49 <cpressey> alise: What can I say? I'm just a sadistic bastard that way.
00:20:21 <Ilari> Of course, one can't tell what happens when one takes quantum gravitation into account...
00:20:39 * Sgeo goes to learn more about Falcon programming language
00:21:06 <cpressey> Oh no
00:21:20 <alise> cpressey: Yeah, you actually turned Sgeo /on/ to Falcon.
00:21:25 <alise> Congratu-fuckin'-lations.
00:21:25 <cpressey> Arrrgh
00:21:49 <alise> The designer is a native of Bologna, and the language is total bologna. Coincidence? I think not.
00:22:11 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_(programming_language) Wow. This should either not exist or be a tenth of its length.
00:22:22 <Ilari> bologna as in BS?
00:22:27 <alise> Ilari: Yes. :-)
00:22:39 <Sgeo> Does the stuff on functional programming have to be all the theory first?
00:22:49 <alise> loool
00:23:31 <Sgeo> What if I said that Falcon is the NetHack of programming languages?
00:23:41 <Sgeo> It has everything including the kitchen sink
00:23:55 <alise> Issue: NetHack is fun and amusing, Falcon isn't.
00:24:06 <alise> Rather, NetHack is fun and amusing apart from as mockery.
00:24:10 <Sgeo> (Note: In programming languages, more syntax features is worse)
00:24:20 <Sgeo> (in general)
00:24:22 <alise> cpressey: Do you "believe" in dark energy/matter?
00:24:59 <Sgeo> "we present some novel nomenclature to identify functional programming entities"
00:25:08 <Sgeo> Um, I'm afraid reading further may screw up my brain
00:25:25 <cpressey> alise: Not sure how to answer that. I guess "no". I believe in unaccounted-for observations.
00:26:01 <Ilari> Dark matter is apparently real. But I don't think it has been established wheither dark energy is real or represents inaccuracy of GR...
00:26:07 <alise> cpressey: Well, that's not a reassuring answer, since what I gather from cosmologists is that dark * actually has very very good evidence (possibly better than black holes?).
00:26:12 <cpressey> Looking at unaccounted-for observations and saying, "Gee, there must be a whole lot more matter out there that we can't see, let's call it 'dark matter'" --
00:26:20 <alise> Ilari: Let's go with matter.
00:26:23 <alise> I forgot which it was.
00:26:29 <alise> cpressey: That isn't what happened, though.
00:26:35 <alise> cpressey: That's just how idiots popularised it.
00:27:03 <cpressey> alise: So where is it and what is it?
00:27:12 <alise> cpressey: Space. Dark matter.
00:27:17 <leBMD> Wow, I don't even know what I'm doing anymore. XD
00:27:21 <alise> cpressey: What is a quark?
00:27:32 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I've also been watching Stargate Infinity
00:27:33 <cpressey> alise: Why is it called matter?
00:27:36 <alise> cpressey: What is a quark?
00:27:51 <cpressey> alise: A quark is a building block of matter. Is dark matter made of quarks?
00:28:03 <cpressey> alise: Does it behave like matter?
00:28:19 <Ilari> Apparently it is not made of quarks.
00:28:22 <cpressey> In short, why classify it with matter?
00:28:27 <alise> cpressey: You know, I don't actually know anything about it; people who do know much more about it than me says it most very likely exists, and I don't think I consider mainstream cosmology quackery.
00:28:29 <cpressey> Does it have momentum?
00:28:33 <Ilari> It has mass and inertia.
00:28:38 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
00:28:40 <cpressey> Ilari: that's something.
00:28:46 <alise> Here is my generalised answer to your question.
00:28:56 <Ilari> And also gravitational mass.
00:28:58 <alise> cpressey: The way you're talking is the way ultrafinitists talk. :)
00:29:06 <alise> "Where's infinity? What is it? How can you have an infinitely big set?"
00:29:20 <alise> "Strong gravitational lensing as observed by the Hubble Space Telescope in Abell 1689 indicates the presence of dark matter—enlarge the image to see the lensing arcs."
00:29:30 <alise> Does that class as evidence, cpressey?
00:29:44 <Sgeo> " It would be more accurate to say that arrays know what a Table instance is, and are kind with them, rather than seeing the Table class as special ."
00:29:47 * Sgeo bliks
00:29:47 <alise> "Dark matter is crucial to the Big Bang model of cosmology [...]"
00:29:49 <Sgeo> *blinks
00:30:12 <Sgeo> So, Tables are a bit magical. Can I do this magic to make my own SgTable class, or is it just More Magic hidden somewhere out of sight?
00:30:19 <Sgeo> I like it when I know how the magic works
00:30:21 <Ilari> If there is supersymmetry, the lightest supersymmetric particle is good candidate for dark matter.
00:31:24 <leBMD> hey cpressey, when dealing with fingerprints, why is there always a "4" after the fingerprint name?
00:31:40 <alise> leBMD: length of fingerprint name
00:31:43 <alise> "ABCD"4
00:31:44 * Sgeo WTFs at Pages
00:31:47 <alise> "LULZR"5
00:31:50 <leBMD> oh, ok
00:31:52 <alise> 4 is used because of 32-bit
00:32:15 * Sgeo considers implementing Tables in Smalltalk for s**ts and giggles
00:32:39 <Ilari> Apparently dark matter only reacts to gravitational and weak forces. Would certainly explain why its "dark".
00:32:40 <alise> soots
00:32:42 <alise> soots and giggles.
00:32:46 <alise> Sgeo: stop self-censoring.
00:33:20 <Sgeo> I want to ***k with someone
00:33:47 <leBMD> So then, when you call a command from a fingerprint, like "D for Destroy" or whatever, all you do is put the capital letter there, right?
00:34:01 <cpressey> alise: It's some evidence. Not what I'd call conclusive.
00:34:23 <alise> Great minds: http://nedroid.com/2010/05/that-explains-everything/ http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1777
00:34:36 * pikhq sucks at driving a stick shift
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00:35:59 <Ilari> Regarding dark energy: I saw some paper that IIRC fitted some cosmological curve (that would involve dark energy in GR) with no parameters. Didn't chekck if the math is good...
00:36:28 <leBMD> So then, if a command needed an argument like "D(m-- ) Destroy if m==1, destroy mode off if m!=1" how would I go about that? Would I put the arguments into the stack?
00:36:37 <Ilari> (it does have parameters, but those are needed to fit local laws of physics, leaving no global parameters).
00:36:52 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physics_of_Star_Trek ;; lol
00:37:20 <Vorpal> hm should I run /exec -o head --bytes 400 /dev/urandom | tr -d '\n\r'
00:37:26 <alise> Yes.
00:37:28 <Vorpal> it might be interesting to see who complains
00:37:33 <Vorpal> H<CTCP>?Y)BURc#c:MVkoiٴYE]:vK<CTCP>0A[n>.`VBOӡL.ts/]Iuسroyadmf~/']
00:37:40 <Vorpal> hopefully that messes up some terminal :P
00:37:54 <Gregor-W> My browser kerploded.
00:37:54 <Ilari> Loads of unknown characters...
00:38:33 <alise> Vorpal has successfully levelled down by successfully decreasing his experience points by using his "Retardedness" power, which exercised his "regressive, childlike state of mind" attribute!
00:38:34 <pikhq> My terminal shows question marks.
00:38:38 <alise> TADA!
00:39:15 <pikhq> And my hands smell like gasoline.
00:39:35 <alise> My terminal shows question marks, my hands smell like gasoline, and I'm ready to KICK SOME ASS.
00:39:59 <pikhq> Note to self: fill your damned gas tank up before it shows up as "empty". The gauge LIES!
00:40:39 <leBMD> ok, so now I've got it displaying something, but it fills up the screen.
00:40:56 <cpressey> Strangely, Pidgin did not crash at that.
00:41:15 <Vorpal> lets give it another go!
00:41:17 <Vorpal> 9N[/מO +FZ,[V,%
00:41:21 <Vorpal> ah quite short
00:42:01 <Vorpal> that hardly counts does it? ;P
00:42:03 <Vorpal> YT>s:j뮮@ꡂϻ$obKK+!‘4cD}ݬ|PW3"Y}f'[M^LD;dg*Q2VeߍEmjE7a__K+yi䏟AE.qڬ$Tܙb3ԭb+IRtrBu+}Y9uhح]JA@Mv'lpua&GOIZ(_гJ]D?:`+%tWnC~txmHR;un37и:ߔ-RU$98/=ɻ]ݫŒےbqPRkF)M8kʸ DѺ[
00:42:05 <Vorpal> okayt I'll stop
00:42:12 <Vorpal> still, worth doingit
00:42:14 <Vorpal> doing it*
00:42:20 <Vorpal> just for the reactions
00:42:36 <Vorpal> hopefully the log will be octet-stream now too
00:42:43 <Warrigal> So the string that c_str() returns does not need to be freed manually, right?
00:42:57 * Warrigal deletes that line.
00:44:16 <Vorpal> Warrigal, which line?
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00:46:08 <Warrigal> Vorpal: the line freeing the string that c_str() returns.
00:46:14 <cpressey> alise: I'm not planning to obnoxiously promote my crackpot skeptic ideas in here. I will say, however, that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GalacticRotation2.svg does not exactly scream "Inverse square law" to me.
00:46:22 <Vorpal> Warrigal, ah
00:46:44 <cpressey> And on that note -- good evening, all.
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00:47:03 <Vorpal> dark matter? *shrug*
00:53:00 <alise> Warrigal: c_str?
00:53:41 <Warrigal> alise: yes, the method of a C++ string that converts it into a C char pointer.
00:54:01 <Vorpal> night
00:55:17 <pikhq> Said C string should not be modified, and is not guaranteed to exist after modification of the C++ string object.
00:55:46 <pikhq> Warrigal: Freeing the result of c_str will result in undefined behavior down the line; don't do it.
00:56:42 <Warrigal> Luckily, freeing it appears to be a type error.
00:57:02 <pikhq> Well, yes; C++ doesn't do implicit casts to/from void*.
00:57:17 <Warrigal> In this case, between char * and const char *.
00:57:41 <pikhq> ... void free(void*), not void free(char*).
00:59:05 <pikhq> Huh. Neptune has orbited once since its discovery.
00:59:31 <Warrigal> Oh, true.
00:59:44 * Warrigal shrugs.
01:07:12 <Sgeo> Why would you deliberately use C++?
01:08:55 <alise> pikhq: Pluto has orbited 73.99999 times
01:09:00 <alise> *Complete and utter fabrication.
01:11:02 <Gregor-W> Who cares about Pluto.
01:11:05 <Gregor-W> Not even a friggin' planet.
01:11:11 <alise> PLUTO IS MADE OF ROBOTS
01:11:18 <Gregor-W> Dwarf robots.
01:11:40 <alise> The new NetHack race!
01:19:39 <alise> Sgeo: Do people who aren't you or oerjan like Triangle and Robert?
01:20:08 <Sgeo> There's a forum...
01:20:17 <alise> Truly proof that anyone can write a comic!
01:20:32 <Sgeo> Mostly spam these days, but go back a bit
01:20:32 <Sgeo> http://voy.com/50101/
01:20:46 <alise> You don't technically need any art then really, do you?
01:20:51 <alise> Little placeholder names would suffice for everything.
01:21:11 <Sgeo> alise, the poor art is a plotpoint
01:21:46 <alise> WHY TBALE
01:21:50 <alise> WHY ARE YOU COLLAPSED
01:21:51 <alise> *TABLE
01:22:04 <Sgeo> Hmm?
01:22:13 <alise> my table has collapsed
01:22:19 <alise> thusly it is resting on me and not stable in and of itself
01:22:20 <alise> this is bad
01:45:00 <Sgeo> Wow, a rule that comex wrote is horribly broken
01:51:24 <Sgeo> Or, I could be a complete idiot, which I am
01:52:28 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Shamed.
01:53:52 * alise puts the Dunce Cap on Sgeo|Shamed.
01:55:06 <Sgeo|Shamed> Well, at least I'm safe from mind-flayers
01:55:59 <pikhq> No you're not.
01:56:09 <pikhq> Mind flayers are also casters.
01:56:13 <pikhq> Nobody is safe from casters.
01:56:27 <alise> #esoteric: "We will out-pedant your NetHack jokes."
01:56:27 <coppro> they don't have summon nasties, do they?
01:57:10 <pikhq> alise: Oh, *Nethack* jokes.
01:57:16 <pikhq> I was going with D&D.
01:57:33 <alise> That is quite possible, but I have Sgeo|Shamed mentally down as more of a NetHack guy than anything else.
01:57:41 <pikhq> Casters are scary as fucking hell in D&D, due to being the only effective classes from about level 5 up.
01:57:42 <alise> (Discounting the things that don't even count as games.)
01:57:51 <pikhq> :P
01:58:06 <pikhq> (well, rather, they're the only effective classes *because* they're scary as hell)
01:58:07 <Sgeo|Shamed> I'm more of a Mutation person
01:58:15 <alise> Sgeo|Shamed: Which were you referencing?
01:58:16 <Sgeo|Shamed> (Which _does_ count as a game)
01:58:20 <Sgeo|Shamed> alise, NetHack
01:58:25 <Sgeo|Shamed> I know little about D&D
01:58:27 <alise> See! I was right. Ha.
01:58:51 <pikhq> Sgeo|Shamed: Mechanically, D&D and Nethack are related. So, you know something about D&D.
01:59:17 <Sgeo|Shamed> I also read OOTS, so I know a bit about D&D from there
01:59:28 <alise> pikhq: *NetHack
01:59:31 <coppro> <3 OOtS
01:59:35 <pikhq> alise: Right.
02:00:07 <pikhq> *Spelling *pedantry *beats *every *other *form *of *pedantry *.
02:00:40 <coppro> isn't that grammar?
02:01:07 <alise> no
02:01:09 <alise> that's orthography
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02:27:44 <alise> Shigeru Miyamoto: There's something I've learned from making this new Mario title multiplayer.
02:27:44 <alise> Satoru Iwata: And what's that?
02:27:44 <alise> Shigeru Miyamoto: I realized that, fundamentally, Mario is a game where if you fail and lose a turn, you'll be sent straight back to the start.
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03:02:15 <alise> Bye.
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03:02:27 <augur> g'day folks
03:02:30 <augur> g'night folks
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04:05:22 <zzo38> And how do I get DVI to print, I keep getting METAFONT error?
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04:28:10 <zzo38> Do I need a laser printer for DVI?
05:10:15 <Sgeo|ShamedAgain> I would imagine not
05:14:20 <zzo38> Then why do I get METAFONT error?
05:21:28 <zzo38> Do you have schematic diagrams for computers based on INTERCAL?
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05:45:01 <zzo38> Did you know there is a Japanese book describing esolangs, and that even AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! is included?
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06:05:13 <pikhq> zzo38: Awesome.
06:22:18 <Slereah> zzo38 : sauce
06:26:53 <zzo38> An interpreter written in Ruby might exist.
06:26:58 <zzo38> But I am not sure.
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07:02:54 <zzo38> How do I find the information and implementation for: ETHEL, Okapi, Whothm
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07:08:19 <Slereah> zzo38 : Do you have a link to that book?
07:08:35 <zzo38> Slereah: No
07:09:02 <zzo38> But look on Wikipedia under [[Unlambda]] I think you can find a preview of a few pages
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07:52:41 <zzo38> If you add Hackiki into esolangs, I have a few suggestions. One is to add OpenID support to MediaWiki so that the accounts can be linked. Another is to provide read-only access between both systems (so that a MediaWiki page can transclude a Hackiki file, and a Hackiki program can read a MediaWiki page). Third is to put Enhanced CWEB, and TeX, and modify cwebmac.tex (and cweave.w if needed) to weave to HTML
07:52:58 <zzo38> (And that if you download the file, you can then run it locally and weave to TeX and DVI or PDF, as well, just like normal way)
07:54:59 <zzo38> Someone can also put in a MediaWiki parser, so that the MediaWiki files are readable in Hackiki!
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16:23:57 <coppro> okay, I have found yet another reason to <3 Amazon
16:24:09 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, what is it?
16:25:10 <coppro> they have a download manager for direct music purchases, and they distribute Linux binaries
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16:28:01 <coppro> there are a few issues with the way they do it, but they get points
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16:35:26 <coppro> also apparently it uses boost
16:35:27 <coppro> even better
16:36:41 <augur> o hai
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17:45:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|ShamedAgain, why the nick?
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18:08:50 <Sgeo|ShamedAgain> Dangit, acidentally cleared the chatlog
18:09:04 <Sgeo|ShamedAgain> I thought something stupid related to Agora.
18:09:10 <Sgeo|ShamedAgain> And msg'd other people.
18:09:22 <Sgeo|ShamedAgain> Then, similar for something else in Agora
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19:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|ShamedAgain, do you really like Falcon?
19:15:54 <Sgeo|ShamedAgain> I have yet to have an opinion, other than to note that there's nothing too exciting about it, and it seems to have a bit of an excess of syntax
19:16:58 <pikhq> Fucking router. Hand out a damned DHCP lease.
19:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> http://sexyalevels.tumblr.com/
19:17:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Blew my mind.
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19:30:06 <pikhq> Fucking router. Accept packets.
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19:32:42 <Phantom_Hoover> At half seven‽
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20:05:55 <leBMD> Hello.
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20:15:44 <Phantom_Hoover> leBMD!
20:15:53 <leBMD> hi!
20:19:30 <leBMD> So, I still haven't figured out how to get fingerprints in funge-98 to work right. XD
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22:42:15 <alise> 08:25:10 <coppro> they have a download manager for direct music purchases, and they distribute Linux binaries
22:42:30 <alise> I have a download manager for zero-cost direct any media purchases, and they distribute Linux source AND binaries!
22:42:39 <alise> In fact, the protocol is open, and there are many different clients.
22:42:48 <alise> 08:35:26 <coppro> also apparently it uses boost
22:42:49 <alise> 08:35:27 <coppro> even better
22:42:49 <alise> Some definition of "better".
22:43:43 <Sgeo> alise, some people do like staying on the right side of the law ... unless you're referring to HTTP instead of BitTorrent
22:44:25 <pikhq> Sgeo: BitTorrent is 150% legal.
22:44:31 <alise> Sgeo: People probably break the law all the time and don't realise it.
22:44:59 <alise> Besides, I consider obeying unenforceable, morally incorrect laws to be Wrong.
22:45:00 <pikhq> Also, yes. Each time your cells undergo mitosis you've violated patent law once again.
22:45:43 <pikhq> (though you could probably win the case under doctrine of laches)
22:45:50 <alise> "I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." ;; Heinlein is wrong about a lot of things, but he's pretty damn close to the mark here.
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22:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> What does that even mean?
22:52:36 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, ^
22:52:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Exactly what it says.
22:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I can do what I like?
22:53:09 <Phantom_Hoover> What does "morally responsible" mean in this context?
22:53:11 <alise> I don't believe it said that, no.
22:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> . If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them.
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22:53:50 <alise> There's an awful lot of things flying over heads right now.
22:53:51 <Phantom_Hoover> "I will follow whichever rules I want"
22:53:59 <alise> Actually head, singular.
22:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I suppose some context would help.
22:54:37 <alise> I suppose you could read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".
22:54:51 <cpressey> Context is for losers
22:55:10 <alise> And floosers.
22:55:16 <alise> And paloozas.
22:57:15 <alise> And dubdubdubdoozas?
22:59:32 <Sgeo> Allegiance time
22:59:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OK, from the start. ""I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom."
22:59:39 <cpressey> loser cpressey reads the log
23:00:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely that contradicts the rest?
23:01:23 <Phantom_Hoover> In that it later states that he will ignore obnoxious rules.
23:02:43 <cpressey> Well, perhaps "accept" doesn't mean "follow" in that.
23:02:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, perhaps.
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23:07:48 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
23:08:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, can I do that for quit messages?
23:08:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: → sleep).
23:09:15 <cpressey> Doesn't look quite the same, for me. But it looks the same in the tunes log.
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23:24:39 <cpressey> Wikipedia: "In computability theory, a collection of data-manipulation rules (an instruction set, programming language, or cellular automaton) is said to be Turing complete if and only if such system can simulate a single-taped Turing machine."
23:24:56 <cpressey> Well, here's my single-taped Turing machine: it has one state and one symbol and one transition.
23:25:14 <cpressey> And here's my language X that simulates it: (insert trivial language here).
23:25:43 <cpressey> According to wikipedia, my language is Turing-complete. Because it "can simulate a single-taped Turing machine" -- the one I just described.
23:26:22 <coppro> cpressey: I blame Wikipedia. It should say "any" or "a universal"
23:26:32 <coppro> (which are equivalent)
23:26:37 <cpressey> Yes. Sorry if it wasn't clear -- I blame Wikipedia too :)
23:27:50 <cpressey> "any" and "a universal" aren't *quite* equivalent, unfortunately -- it brings up the issue of how you handle input.
23:28:26 <alise> pikhq: God dammit, why does MusicBrainz credit every single performer?
23:28:29 <alise> I just want tags!
23:28:32 <cpressey> I prefer "any". Otherwise you allow languages that can only simulate one fixed UTM to be called Turing-complete. It may be technically true, but... blargh
23:28:57 <coppro> cpressey: a UTM is only universial if it can simulate any TM
23:29:02 <alise> cpressey: Well, any language that can simulate a UTM can simulate any TM.
23:29:16 <coppro> if you fix the input as well, it's not universal
23:32:01 <pikhq> alise: Yeah well eff you.
23:32:55 <pikhq> cpressey: If you can simulate a specific UTM you can simulate all Turing-complete systems. So nyaah.
23:33:30 <cpressey> pikhq: My criticism is that a language that lets you only write one program is a boring language, even if that one program is a UTM.
23:33:34 <alise> pikhq: Maybe I'll create /usr/bin/DEFUCK_MUSICBRAINZ_TAGS. With that capitalisation.
23:33:40 <cpressey> For some value of "boring".
23:33:46 <coppro> pikhq: we haven't proven that yet
23:33:53 <alise> Boring, of course; but Turing complete.
23:33:56 <alise> coppro: Uh, yes we have.
23:34:05 <alise> coppro: UTM = can simulate any Turing machine.
23:34:07 <alise> Oh, you mean --
23:34:10 <alise> Church-Turing hypothesis?
23:34:12 <coppro> yes
23:34:18 <alise> <pikhq> cpressey: If you can simulate a specific UTM you can simulate all Turing-complete [and no higher] systems. So nyaah.
23:34:23 <alise> Is the obvious implied meaning.
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23:35:00 <cpressey> If, on the other hand, every TM maps to some (different) program in your language (and without regard to input for those programs), then your language is still Turing-complete, and less "boring".
23:35:58 <cpressey> 'Swhy I prefer "any", is all. I'm not saying "a universal" is wrong or anything.
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23:36:13 <pikhq> Well, of course it's a *boring* language.
23:36:25 <pikhq> We do not limit our definitions to only interesting languages.
23:36:31 <cpressey> What I'd really like is two different terms for those two properties.
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23:36:59 <pikhq> Turing-complete and "Pleases cpressey".
23:37:10 <cpressey> Which mean, what I'd really like is *a* term for the property I just described.
23:37:19 <pikhq> Cpressey-complete.
23:37:21 <cpressey> pikhq: Please sir, I did describe it more formally than that.
23:38:04 <coppro> cpressey: you mean that a single program can simulate the set of Turing machines that are equivalent except for their input tape
23:38:07 <coppro> ?
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23:38:22 <cpressey> coppro: no...
23:38:43 <coppro> then please provide a different formal definition
23:39:22 <coppro> so that I can explain why you're wrong
23:39:40 <cpressey> I mean, you have a language X, and you can map every TM to some unique element of X, and you don't have to do anything with input (except maybe a trivial mapping between alphabets if you like.)
23:39:46 <cpressey> coppro: How can a definition be wrong?
23:40:02 <cpressey> Internally inconsistent, maybe...
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23:40:19 <pikhq> cpressey: By "wrong" he means "stupid".
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23:40:32 <coppro> cpressey: input is part of a TM
23:41:10 <cpressey> coppro: Er - not in my definition of TMs, it's not. Otherwise how would you distinguish between the Halting Problem and the Uniform Halting Problem, for exampel?
23:41:58 <cpressey> You can look at a TM + its input as a set of TM's if you like, of course
23:42:13 <coppro> cpressey: there is a very specific definition of a TM as a 7-tuple
23:42:37 <cpressey> coppro: There is also a very specific defintion of a TM as a 4-tuple
23:43:09 <coppro> a 4-tuple?
23:43:15 <coppro> 6, I could see
23:45:12 <cpressey> Blame Papadimitriou, I guess. At any rate, it doesn't matter if input is part of a TM or not, for my definition, does it?
23:45:41 <coppro> sure it does
23:45:49 <coppro> because then you can provide a proper definition of what you're describing
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23:46:11 <cpressey> coppro: Can you show how I have failed to do so?
23:46:23 <coppro> "you don't have to do anything with input" is hopelessly vague
23:46:30 <cpressey> Fine, delete that part.
23:46:41 <cpressey> You have a language X, and you can map every TM to some unique element of X.
23:47:30 <cpressey> If X has this property, then X is Turing-complete. But Y can be Turing-complete, but not have this property.
23:47:46 <cpressey> So I'd like a name for this property.
23:47:48 <cpressey> That's all, really.
23:47:49 <alise> Turing-isomorphic?
23:47:53 <alise> Turing-specifier?
23:48:04 <alise> Isomorphic is wrong in case the language is super-TC.
23:48:19 <coppro> cpressey: can you give an example of Y
23:48:20 <cpressey> Turing-onto?
23:48:42 <cpressey> Y might be a language with only one element: a program which implements a UTM.
23:49:04 <alise> cpressey: even some boring languages fit your specification
23:49:13 <alise> if you have a UTM simulator, and a function that spits out a UTM program to simulate a given TM
23:49:15 <alise> then just plug the two together
23:49:21 <alise> even though the language may not be able to "natively" simulate a given TM
23:49:35 <alise> otoh, a language that can do that is unlikely to be boring :)
23:50:49 <cpressey> alise: I'm not totally sure I follow that particulat example but I'm aware there are probably ways to wiggle around this, which is why I was quick to scare-quotify "boring" :)
23:50:57 <cpressey> particular*
23:50:59 <nooga> again, i got accidentaly killed in angband again
23:51:21 <alise> cpressey: say we have foo(x) = y such that UTM(y) simulates the turing machine x
23:51:27 <alise> cpressey: say foo is computable in language X
23:51:39 <alise> cpressey: say we also have a single UTM simulator in X
23:51:51 <alise> then UTMsim(foo(x)) proves X non-boring
23:51:58 <alise> even though it can only "natively" simulate one UTM
23:52:00 <alise> which you were trying to avoid
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23:52:57 <cpressey> Well -- just because we *can* map every TM to some unique element of X doesn't mean we *have* to -- if that's what you're getting at
23:53:09 <cpressey> We can also map them all to one program
23:53:09 <alise> No.
23:53:27 <alise> You said "languages that can only simulate one UTM suck" and tried to provide a property that did not accept languages that can do that.
23:53:37 <alise> What I just demonstated is that even though language X can only express one UTM, it meets your property.
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23:54:43 <cpressey> I was using Y for that language, ftr -- but Y only *has* one element (the UTM program). How can all TMs map to *unique* elements of Y?
23:55:17 <alise> Oh, only one element full stop.
23:55:32 <alise> I thought you meant that it could have an assortment of random programs and subprograms, but only one actually did UTM computation.
23:55:51 <cpressey> Yeah. No. One element, full stop, as you say.
23:55:54 <alise> Like a "zap" instruction that interprets the Foo Buffer as a UTM, but all other operations form a sub-TC language.
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23:56:11 <alise> cpressey: Then it's as equal to the UTM it simulates as you can get; indistinguishable, even.
23:56:29 <cpressey> alise: Or a subset of Pascal that just contains one program, a Brainfuck interpeter.
23:56:50 <alise> I think those are such edge cases that you can just ignore them.
23:56:53 <alise> Don't be an AnMaster. :)
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