←2010-08-19 2010-08-20 2010-08-21→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:35 <cpressey> Certainly not my intent. I think whether you consider this an edge case (implied: uninteresting) or an pathological case (implied: interesting) is a matter of opinion. I also think perhaps there would be less heated debate about this or that system being universal if we had a richer set of definitions to work with.
00:01:46 <cpressey> I'd glance in ais523's direction but he's not here.
00:02:26 <alise> I totally find myself unable to care.
00:04:04 <cpressey> Ah well. I find myself need to take off, too.
00:04:09 <cpressey> Evening, all.
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00:16:11 <Sgeo> alise, I'm dead
00:16:26 <alise> Cool.
00:18:06 <Sgeo> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/Sgeo/dumplog/1218251507.nh343.txt
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00:37:55 <alise> "Shoes 3" ;; what? you can't do that; it's why's!
00:39:38 <Sgeo> Is that a Ruby joke?
00:39:43 <alise> Not a joke.
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00:40:32 <zzo38> Can you please tell me why my program is slow, and how to make it fast? (The SDL channel won't help me, they just complain about my codes instead)
00:40:38 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/WEdQ http://sprunge.us/EdXC
00:41:04 <Sgeo> for(;i--;p++) {
00:41:07 * Sgeo o.Os
00:41:43 <zzo38> Does SDL wait for vblank normally, does that make it slow?
00:42:06 <olsner> while (i--) is a neat way of looping n (n = original value of i) times with values 0..n-1 each appearing once in the loop
00:42:26 <zzo38> MegaZeux is faster and uses less CPU time, even though MegaZeux does a lot more things when redrawing the screen.
00:42:37 <alise> A a a a a a
00:42:52 <alise> olsner: Neat? It's ... normal :P
00:42:53 <zzo38> B b b b b b
00:43:19 <olsner> normal to me is a "for (i=0;i<n;i++)"
00:43:33 <alise> that doesn't work though
00:43:35 <alise> since it's in reverse order
00:43:37 <zzo38> olsner: But if the order doesn't matter, surely doing it in reverse way is more efficient?
00:43:56 <olsner> for pretty much all other looping patterns I still need to do careful analysis to figure out what they do
00:44:01 <Sgeo> I think it's the sort of efficiency that you worry about last
00:45:19 <olsner> IMO it starts being relevant at approximately the same time you'd start rewriting stuff in assembly anyway
00:45:55 <zzo38> In the case of for(;i--;p++) it has to do both -- and ++
00:46:24 <zzo38> And if it is writing in assembly, that means it will not work on the other computer. That is why C is used
00:47:06 <olsner> a more obvious way would be something like for (i=1;i<=n;i++) { /* use p[i] */ }
00:47:50 <zzo38> olsner: Maybe to you it is more obvious, but not to me
00:48:11 <zzo38> How much do you program in C?
00:48:56 <nooga> -
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00:52:17 <olsner> I like to think of it as a lot, but I might actually be writing more e-mails than C :/
00:53:07 <zzo38> It should be obvious what the program does, because it even tells you what it does, and is more obvious for C programmers, too.
00:53:43 <zzo38> You still didn't answer my question though, why is it slow and uses a lot of CPU time, even though MegaZeux is fast and takes less CPU time?
00:54:11 <olsner> oh, I didn't read the code, I only read Sgeo's quote
00:54:39 <alise> I write ~no emails.
00:54:57 <olsner> oh noes, literate programming... I can't find the code for all the text :(
00:56:03 <alise> Must...download...cloud-cat-poster.tif...
00:57:28 <zzo38> Is waiting for vblank making it slow?
00:58:42 <olsner> does the SDL backend you use (X-windows?) actually support palette formats or is it simulating them by converting to RGB-something in software?
00:58:49 <Ilari> zzo38: Well, see how much time the SDL screen update call takes relative to other code?
00:59:33 <zzo38> I can try
00:59:50 <zzo38> olsner: I am using Win32, but it is meant to work on all small-endian computers
00:59:52 <alise> pikhq: How do you calculate ReplayGain for MP3s on Linux? I'm wary of MP3Gain...
01:00:52 <alise> Never mind; mp3gain works.
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01:02:03 * Sgeo zaps a /death at alise
01:02:39 <pikhq> alise: mp3gain outputs tags in a retarded format that Quod Libet won't accept.
01:02:54 <pikhq> alise: I used Quod Libet's replaygain *plugin* to do it.
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01:05:00 <alise> pikhq: Nope, nope, there is a way.
01:05:04 <alise> mp3gain -s i
01:05:08 <alise> That writes to ID3v2.
01:05:15 <alise> *mp3gain -h skillz*
01:05:17 <pikhq> alise: Oh, so that makes it not-dumb. Good.
01:05:28 <alise> Well, APEv2 is a perfectly acceptable and superior tagging format, it's just that nobody uses it.
01:05:42 <alise> The people who use APEv2 also use Musepack.
01:06:22 <zzo38> I have found out, that, yes the |SDL_UpdateRect| command is making it slow. But without that, it won't draw the picture on the screen.
01:06:33 <pikhq> It's not that APEv2 is inherently dumb, it's that nothing *uses* APEv2.
01:06:59 <pikhq> And if I'm in a position to use something with better *tagging* format support, I'm also in a position to use something with better audio formats.
01:07:08 <pikhq> *cough*AAC*cough*
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01:07:40 <alise> pikhq: Alas, there is the occasional gem distributed only in the muchly-lossy form.
01:07:54 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
01:07:58 <alise> I have a wonderful little set of ditties here that is available only at 128 kbps.
01:08:26 <pikhq> Obscure music is hard to find in FLACs.
01:08:35 <alise> Or music made by a madman.
01:09:01 <pikhq> Yes.
01:24:29 <alise> pikhq: I'd even say this album needs /track ReplayGain inside the album ReplayGain/, but then I can seriously entertain the idea that the schizophrenic mixing is entirely intentional.
01:24:37 <alise> Such is life.
01:25:00 <pikhq> Hmm. OED 3rd edition came out today.
01:25:19 <alise> They still use IPA.
01:25:26 <pikhq> Yup.
01:25:32 <alise> Bah.
01:25:51 <alise> It doesn't make sense! IPA is dialect-specific, and as a consumer product, IPA is useless as a pronunciation guide
01:25:53 <alise> *guide.
01:26:06 <pikhq> Sorry, no, someone claimed it did but it's rather the "Oxford Dictionary of English". Bleh.
01:26:22 <alise> ?
01:26:24 <alise> XD
01:26:25 <alise> pikhq: [[As of 10 June 2010, the editors had completed the third edition from M to rococoesque.]]
01:26:26 <alise> yesah
01:26:27 <alise> *yeah
01:26:44 <alise> The Oxford Dictionary of English (formerly The New Oxford Dictionary of English, often abbreviated to NODE) is a single-volume English language dictionary first published in 1998 by Oxford University Press. This dictionary is not based on the Oxford English Dictionary and should not be mistaken for a new or updated version of the OED. It is a completely new dictionary which strives to represent as faithfully as possible the current usage of English words.
01:26:47 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, well. The OED proper is not much of a consumer product.
01:26:50 <alise> How misleading.
01:26:55 <alise> pikhq: Yes, but... the concise OED is.
01:27:00 <pikhq> Okay, true.
01:27:18 <pikhq> And that should at *least* have a dialect-neutral pronounciation guide as well.
01:27:20 <alise> pikhq: Besides, as a scholarly work, a specific dialect should not be picked. So they have to list multiple IPAs.
01:27:23 <alise> Which is a bit ludicrous.
01:27:53 <pikhq> alise: At least it's a percieved-standard dialect... Could be worse.
01:27:55 <alise> The concise OED (and possibly the OED proper) of olden days (60s) had a wonderful pronunciation system based on unobtrusive punctuation like | and ' along with little lines above the words.
01:28:00 <zzo38> The SDL_UpdateRect slow is OK, since is in a different thread, I think it just waits for vblank. And it uses less CPU time than the main program (which is not the initial thread), when that is happening.
01:28:05 <alise> pikhq: Wait, they don't list multiple pronunciations? Just RP?
01:28:07 <alise> Jesus.
01:28:19 <pikhq> alise: Just RP.
01:28:25 <alise> That's hideous.
01:28:31 <alise> Nobody even speaks RP. Just the BBC.
01:28:38 <alise> Even the Queen is slowly drifting to Cockney.
01:29:00 <pikhq> alise: Could be worse. Imagine if they had it use Scottish English.
01:29:10 <alise> Or Geordie.
01:29:11 <pikhq> Or, for more insanity, Scots.
01:29:40 <zzo38> alise: I saw something written with IPA, and I couldn't read it because it was not my dialect. I suppose it is a little bit like listening to someone with a strong accent and you can't understand them? Not quite, it is different.
01:30:02 <pikhq> zzo38: IPA's merely hard to read without some study.
01:31:02 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/RPGA_international.svg And, as you can see here, it is not accent-neutral.
01:31:19 <pikhq> Wait, that's just text. XD
01:31:31 <pikhq> [ɪntəˈnæʃənəɫ] & [ɪɾ̃ɚˈnæʃɨnəɫ]
01:31:44 <pikhq> RP and General American, respectively.
01:31:49 <alise> It looks prettier in the picture though.
01:31:53 <zzo38> pikhq: No, the reason I couldn't read it is because it is not my dialect. I speak rhotic but they wrote the IPA in non-rhotic, and that is why I cannot understand.
01:31:53 <pikhq> True.
01:32:09 <alise> pikhq: I can't remember whether my accent is rhotic or not.
01:32:24 <alise> I'm not sure it's the same as my region, because my accent is rather generic.
01:32:33 <pikhq> zzo38: There's not much of a difference between rhotic and non-rhotic in IPA.
01:32:43 <alise> I definitely pronounce my r's, but that might not mean much.
01:32:53 <alise> But I don't even know if I say an r in "hard".
01:32:54 <zzo38> From wikipedia: A rhotic speaker pronounces the letter R in hard; a non-rhotic speaker does not pronounce it in hard.
01:32:55 <alise> I can't tell.
01:32:56 <pikhq> zzo38: Not that the General American has ɚ instead of ə for the rhotic vowel.
01:33:05 <pikhq> s/Not/Note/
01:33:21 <alise> LOL
01:33:22 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_English
01:33:25 <pikhq> alise: Got a microphone?
01:33:31 <alise> Scottish English, Irish English and English English.
01:33:40 <alise> pikhq: Yes. I don't know if I have the drivers, but I'll try.
01:33:56 <alise> Can I use rec(1)? How?
01:33:59 <alise> Don't feel like installing audacity.
01:34:37 <pikhq> alise: Though imperfect, cat /dev/dsp > foo
01:34:41 <pikhq> :P
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01:34:49 <alise> Yielding format?
01:34:53 <alise> Raw?
01:35:08 <alise> How many bits, etc.?
01:35:17 <alise> Hmm.
01:35:22 <alise> pikhq: Not /dev/dsp; "rec" yields nothing.
01:35:29 <alise> Apparently I can't.
01:36:01 <pikhq> Raw PCM, 8 bit, mono, 8 kHz.
01:36:08 * alise just tries Audacity.
01:36:14 <alise> Order city.
01:36:39 <alise> That works.
01:36:40 <zzo38> No, when the main program is waiting, the video thread takes 78% CPU
01:36:46 <alise> Such a low volume my microphone is at; why?
01:36:51 <alise> Why does that seem to be such a universal occurance?
01:36:55 <alise> *occurence
01:37:03 <alise> *occurrence
01:37:03 <alise> grr
01:37:10 <Sgeo> alise, I'm now a lawful valk
01:37:16 <Sgeo> erm, dwarf valk
01:39:55 <alise> pikhq: Uploading.
01:40:02 <alise> pikhq: I think this is how I usually pronounce "hard": http://filebin.ca/owtjja/hard.wav
01:41:00 <alise> OTOH, I pronounce "ass" and "arse" very differently (the former as slang apparently arose from the latter under non-rhoticity, says WP)
01:41:04 <alise> (or rhoticity? I dunno.)
01:41:59 <pikhq> alise: That is ridiculously non-rhotic.
01:42:15 <alise> pikhq: Yes; I think it may be slightly more rhotic when I'm not thinking about the damn thing.
01:42:29 <alise> But I suppose I neglect the little /r/.
01:44:05 <pikhq> No, you're neglecting the little /ɑ˞/, instead opting for /ɑ/.
01:44:14 <alise> Well, whatever. :)
01:44:23 <alise> RP is rhotic, yes?
01:44:33 <pikhq> No.
01:44:33 <alise> Nope.
01:44:34 <alise> Non-rhotic.
01:44:35 <alise> Okay.
01:44:40 <alise> I guess I'm in good company. :P
01:44:52 <pikhq> The thing is, rhoticism is a change in the *vowel sounds*, not an actual consonant.
01:45:39 <alise> My accent is actually delightfully non-specific; despite living in the north east for all the time I can remember save maybe one or two memories, I don't seem to have any facets of its accents.
01:45:50 <alise> But I clearly don't speak RP either. God knows what I speak.
01:45:54 <alise> IT's rather plain.
01:46:23 <pikhq> From that short snippet there, I'd have to go with "stereotypical, non-specific British".
01:46:23 <alise> *It's
01:46:43 <pikhq> (which is, of course, distinct from RP in that you actually hear people who talk that way)
01:46:43 <alise> My accent is quite similar to RP, except not with the ridiculous broad A shit. "I'm taking a BARTH".
01:46:54 <alise> And, you know, not nearly as stuck-uply precise.
01:47:03 <pikhq> Quite.
01:47:28 <pikhq> My accent is what happens when you take General American and make it stuck-uply precise. :P
01:48:20 <alise> Like a trainwreck had an abortion!
01:48:24 <pikhq> :P
01:49:02 <zzo38> I found one of the problems in my program! One of them was a misplacement of a SDL_Delay(1) command
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02:04:13 <Dereckson> Hi
02:11:10 <alise> Hi.
02:11:50 * Sgeo dies
02:11:55 <Sgeo> To a unicorn
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02:16:38 * alise wonders how amusing an infobot in here would end up
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02:29:40 <alise_> rational but oogid
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02:33:43 * pikhq is too lazy to do dinner
02:33:50 * alise_ is too lazy to dinner do
02:34:03 * pikhq is, in fact, too lazy to freaking make instant noodles
02:34:12 <alise_> Which is probably for the best.
02:34:40 <pikhq> But I like to consume 400% of the RDA of sodium per bite!
02:34:51 <alise_> YAY SODIUM
02:36:17 <alise_> You know, the Falcon language has maybe one good feature.
02:36:31 <alise_> It lets you specify "only do this on the first/last/not first or last elements of the list" in a foreach.
02:36:38 <alise_> I want that.
02:38:12 * pikhq is somewhat stunned....
02:38:19 <pikhq> So, they have instant noodles in North Korea.
02:38:24 <pikhq> It is consumed by the elite in the country.
02:38:38 <pikhq> Everyone else is too poor to consume what is the cheapest food item.
02:39:55 <alise_> :-D
02:43:09 <alise_> http://pastie.org/1103350.txt?key=xrp0wgb90ehjpcilts9uw
02:43:12 <alise_> My task: Make this work.
02:43:31 <alise_> Hmm, that last @on should have some indicator that it has to be addressed to the tbot.
02:43:36 <alise_> *to the bot.
02:43:54 <alise_> s/@on/@told/. There.
02:48:23 <Sgeo> Grr
02:48:28 <Sgeo> Showers should not be rare
02:49:10 <alise_> pikhq: Quick! Procure a word like "message", but that has the connotation of being addressed to you.
02:50:07 <Sgeo> alise_, maybe Falcon doesn't suck that badly/
02:50:31 <pikhq> alise_: Juugoto.
02:50:34 <alise_> Sgeo: Maybe it absolutely freaking does and you have the worst taste ever.
02:50:40 <alise_> pikhq: An English word. Preferably.
02:50:52 <Sgeo> alise_, I still have not expressed an opinion other than unexciting
02:50:59 <pikhq> alise_: It's a neologism in Japanese, too. :P
02:51:06 <Sgeo> Also, going to take a shower in 10min
02:51:38 <alise_> @on.message(r'\?(.*)')
02:51:38 <alise_> def consult(ctx, topic):
02:51:38 <alise_> but
02:51:44 <alise_> @on.something(r'(.+?) is (.+)')
02:51:44 <alise_> def enlighten(ctx, topic, knowledge):
02:51:52 <pikhq> alise_: Recimissum.
02:51:54 <pikhq> Happy now?
02:51:58 <alise_> The former triggers on anyone saying ?foo as a mesage; the latter triggers on someone addressing the bot.
02:52:07 <alise_> pikhq: Okay, I guess I'll just put an underscore in the name. :P
02:52:07 <nooga> how ruby
02:52:12 <alise_> "Addressed", tada.
02:52:15 <alise_> nooga: How Python.
02:52:38 <alise_> pikhq: INDEED IT IS
02:52:41 <pikhq> (neologism but still)
02:52:42 <alise_> pikhq: BUT STILL
02:52:51 <alise_> http://www.google.com/search?q=Recimissum
02:53:04 <pikhq> Yes, it's a neologism.
02:53:15 <alise_> One that you evidently just made up now :P
02:53:22 <pikhq> Yes, it's a neologism.
02:53:26 <alise_> neoneologism
02:53:30 <pikhq> From recipere + missum.
02:53:46 <alise_> I declare Recimissum a good name for an email client.
02:53:46 <pikhq> (the in-English cognates being receive and message)
02:54:22 <zzo38> alise_: Are you going to write a email client, now?
02:54:51 <alise_> zzo38: Probably not.
02:55:21 <alise_> pikhq: On an altogether more random note entirely, do you spot any major suckage in the way that infobot plugin is written? (i.e. the imaginary plugin API)
02:55:35 <alise_> I basically tried to write something that didn't suck and now I have to make it work...
02:56:07 <zzo38> I have one idea for esolang, where each instruction has 2 bytes (where 1 byte is not necessarily 8 bits), and first is address of next instruction and second is each bit turns on one register, and they transfer registers in that way. Including instruction XOR register.
02:56:27 <alise_> alise_: test
02:56:34 <alise_> ^echo alise_:test
02:56:38 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow).
02:56:41 <alise_> !echo alise_:test
02:56:44 <alise_> !sh echo alise_:test
02:56:47 <EgoBot> alise_:test
02:56:48 <EgoBot> alise_:test
02:57:27 <zzo38> alise_: A message is not send to you if you send to a channel you are on, but it is sent back to you if you put your own name as the recipient.
02:57:45 <zzo38> That is how IRC works
02:58:10 <alise_> zzo38: Which is technically correct and entirely useless, as it ignores the ubiquitous convention of "nick: ..." to specifically address a message to someone on a channel.
02:58:14 <alise_> Which is, of course, rather useful for bots.
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02:59:14 <zzo38> I have written a IRC bot too, it requires to be send a message to them directly, even if it is on a channel
02:59:56 <zzo38> This way it won't interfere, but any messages that are meant to be public can be seen by anyone, such as messages to observe a game play
03:01:05 <Sgeo> Huh
03:01:16 <Sgeo> alise_, the Valkrie quest leader is the Norn
03:01:29 <zzo38> And then, you can set up a macro to send commands to that IRC bot.
03:01:34 <Sgeo> Valkyrie
03:01:54 <zzo38> (At least in the IRC client I use, setting up such macros is simple)
03:03:51 <alise_> I can't get the lyrics to SG-1's theme tune out of my head.
03:04:05 <zzo38> (Simply assign a function key (F1 to F12), and then tell what sequence of keys it corresponds to! Usually the CLEAR code comes first, to clear the line, and then "PRIVMSG targetname :" and then you can type in the command. Example: I have F1 set up as my login macro.)
03:04:59 <alise_> Sgeo: Quick, talk about some crappy VR game to take my mind off it.
03:05:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I can sing Stargate Infinity's theme tune instead?
03:05:32 <Sgeo> >:D
03:05:38 <zzo38> Do the IRC clients you use, use a dialog box to login?
03:05:43 <alise_> I looked that up on YouTube a second ago and vomited; worst "song" ever.
03:05:46 <alise_> zzo38: No.
03:05:54 <Sgeo> Bye for now
03:06:04 <zzo38> alise_: Then do you use a macro to login?
03:06:17 <alise_> zzo38: My client logs in automatically.
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03:07:20 <zzo38> Like, by a configuration settings?
03:07:25 <alise_> Yes.
03:07:30 <zzo38> OK
03:08:10 <zzo38> Do you have to configure the password, too, if there is one? (I prefer not to configure the password. So I enter it before pushing F1, and it is masked so that it is hidden from the screen)
03:10:28 <alise_> There is one. I don't care about IRC nearly enough to worry about my password.
03:12:10 <Sgeo> alise_, Built by ancients so long ago..
03:12:24 <Sgeo> The Stargate lay 'til we broke the code
03:12:26 <Sgeo> Bye
03:12:31 <alise_> Sgeo: I will now kill you.
03:12:41 <coppro> ^5
03:12:53 <alise_> Heck, those lyrics are actually worse than the ones the writers just came up with in three seconds for the DVD commentary.
03:12:59 <alise_> Which are still stuck in my head despite your efforts argh.
03:13:08 <alise_> coppro: What kind of smiley is ^5, anyway? Ohhh, high five.
03:13:09 <zzo38> If you have a password but you don't configure it, but it is configure login automatically, then that won't work, unless you tell it to ask you the password every time? IRC requires the password before you login.
03:13:13 <alise_> coppro: I GED IT.
03:14:00 <zzo38> We don't need ^5 anymore.
03:14:01 <zzo38> ^?
03:14:05 <zzo38> Now is better
03:14:10 <alise_> ...
03:14:12 <alise_> What XD
03:14:23 <zzo38> No, that is no good either, let's try again...
03:14:24 <zzo38> ^!
03:14:33 <zzo38> No, still wrong
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03:14:47 <alise_> What, exactly, are you trying to do, zzo38?
03:14:49 <zzo38> ^
03:14:54 <zzo38> There, now is better for sure!
03:15:29 <zzo38> alise_: What do you think?
03:16:16 <alise_> zzo38: I have absolutely no clue whatsoever what you think ^5 means, or what you are trying to do, or how you are improving it.
03:16:24 <alise_> I am utterly at a loss and require explanation, or my head may explode.
03:16:49 <zzo38> alise_: I don't know either, actually. But at least I can avoid to be explode.
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03:17:12 <alise_> That ... I am no more enlightened than I was a second ago.
03:18:02 <zzo38> Correct. Correct. Correct,Correct,Correct,Correct,Correct,Correct,Correct.
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03:39:14 <alise> Uh oh, the WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT police are attacking me in #python!
03:40:25 <SgeoN2> What are you doing?
03:40:30 <alise> __dict__ stuff.
03:40:57 <SgeoN2> Afk
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04:00:14 <SgeoN2> Ah, nice hot shower
04:02:45 <SgeoN2> zzo38, ^5 is high five
04:02:54 <SgeoN2> Oh
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04:29:05 <alise> bye
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13:36:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Who is this comex person?
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14:21:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um i'm pretty sure comex is an old regular.
14:22:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, by regular do you mean he has the same relation to "regular" as IWC has to "irregular"?
14:22:17 <oerjan> well at presently, maybe
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14:22:45 <oerjan> it _is_ of course possible i know him from elsewhere
14:27:11 <oerjan> it seems he has been in all of here, #haskell and agora
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14:59:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Front panel displays must be rediscovered!
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15:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Random thought: DC implemented in M4.
15:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The 2 UNIX esolangs united.
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16:11:07 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um i'm pretty sure comex is an old regular. <-- yes he is
16:11:12 <Vorpal> I seen him for ages
16:11:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you forgot sed
16:12:02 <Vorpal> (the third unix esolang, and unlike m4 it is in POSIX)
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16:21:43 <Gregor> http://xkcd.com/782/ ... lol.
16:23:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, sed makes a dc program into one understandable by the m4 interpreter.
16:23:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I found that one very weak.
16:23:44 <Gregor> It's kinda obvious, but chuckleworthy :P
16:23:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume it's parodying a trope of which I have no knowledge.
16:24:00 <Gregor> Oh, it is? You don't know the Ancient Indian Burial Ground trope?
16:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> No...
16:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> And I felt cheated, since at first glance it looked to have hatguy in it.
16:24:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hah
16:24:51 <Gregor> Nope, just once-off hairgirl.
16:25:11 <Gregor> A friend of mine once asked me to recommend a hat to buy that would be most similar to the hat that hatguy in XKCD wears :P
16:25:26 <Vorpal> <Gregor> http://xkcd.com/782/ ... lol. <-- wtf
16:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Hatguy is very inconsistently named in the text summaries that ONR searches.
16:26:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Sometimes he's hatguy, other times man with hat, man with black hat, hat guy...
16:26:50 <Gregor> I quite often find myself referred to as "hat man"
16:27:11 <Gregor> It's a nickname that generates itself with no intervention by me :P
16:27:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!
16:28:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Vonlebio.
16:28:29 <Gregor> ....
16:28:34 -!- Gregor has changed nick to VanLabia.
16:29:00 <Vonlebio> VanLabia, stop defiling my good name!
16:29:57 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IndianBurialGround
16:30:06 <oerjan> it already references the xkcd :D
16:30:12 <Vonlebio> Dear god...
16:30:20 <VanLabia> oerjan: Wow, xkcd made it to TvTropes so fast X-D
16:30:56 <oerjan> VanLabia: well IWC frequently does too...
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16:32:38 <Vonlebio> oerjan, yeah, but that's at least in part because DMM is fairly involved with it.
16:32:56 <oerjan> hm
16:33:36 <oerjan> i'm not sure he adds his _own_ comic as reference, though. could be considered bad taste
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16:34:04 <oerjan> but he has referenced tvtropes often enough in iwc
16:34:16 <Vonlebio> Yes, but as a result his comics tend to explicitly use and reference tropes, making them very suited for examples.
16:34:18 <oerjan> *+annotations
16:35:13 <oerjan> of course wikipedia had enough trouble with xkcd that i think they made a policy specific for it
16:35:59 <Vonlebio> "Anyone making articles based on xkcd is banned. No exceptions."
16:36:09 <Vonlebio> If it is not that, I shall be very disappointed.
16:36:13 <Vorpal> hah
16:37:00 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Xkcd_in_popular_culture
16:37:25 <oerjan> well an essay, not a policy
16:38:14 <Vonlebio> http://xkcdwikiwatch.blogspot.com/
16:40:17 <Zuu> muh
16:40:23 <oerjan> hey i was going to mention that
16:40:53 <Vonlebio> "muh"?
16:41:21 <cpressey> hum
16:41:44 * Zuu 's lame way of attracting attention
16:41:58 <Zuu> It was the wrong channel though :)
16:43:08 <Vonlebio> I've observed before that xkcd's format is increasingly similar to that of SMBC.
16:43:13 <oerjan> Zuu Zen
16:43:34 <Zuu> Nah, just Zuu
16:43:47 <Vonlebio> Although not quite so much in the last couple of weeks.
16:43:49 * oerjan swats Zuu -----###
16:43:59 <Zuu> Eeek!
16:44:20 <oerjan> you cannot say "muh" without getting the reference. bah!
16:44:45 * Zuu is confused
16:45:32 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)
16:45:48 <Vonlebio> oerjan, what about the 'h' on the end?
16:46:14 <oerjan> details
16:46:15 <cpressey> I love how PyObjC is like this "Mac thing".
16:49:00 <cpressey> Er, yeah, to the degree that it's setup script actually has Mac-specific calls in it. BRILLIANT.
16:49:25 <cpressey>
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16:55:57 <oerjan> "This wiki does not, however, recommend desecrating Burial Grounds in India purely on the basis of this loophole."
16:58:18 * Vonlebio barely stayed on that page.
16:58:35 * oerjan only recently returned to it
16:58:43 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, noöne else uses Objective C.
16:58:47 <Vonlebio> Not AFAIK.
16:59:27 <Vonlebio> I mean, there's a bit of software out there written in it, like Oolite, but it's so Mac/*step specific that it's not very portable.
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16:59:45 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Pity. Not that I'm a fan of the language or anything.
17:00:00 <cpressey> I mainly just want to run webkit2png.
17:00:13 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well s/not very portable/requires GNUStep to run on Windows and Linux.
17:00:18 <Vonlebio> s/.///
17:04:14 <cpressey> I sometimes wonder if this planet is trying to complexity itself to death.
17:06:11 <Vonlebio> Why?
17:06:37 <Vonlebio> Because of the "we must design MORE LANGUAGES" mentality?
17:08:18 <cpressey> Sort of, among other things.
17:08:35 <cpressey> Wasn't thinking about languages specifically.
17:09:08 <Vorpal> hm
17:09:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, lost in tvtropes?
17:09:50 <oerjan> well, the same page
17:09:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, I managed to avoid following links
17:10:00 * Vonlebio didn't
17:10:21 <Vonlebio> I have already been whipped away to McNinja, and show no signs of stopping.
17:10:24 <oerjan> i haven't clicked many, anyway
17:10:41 <oerjan> oh, in that case
17:10:42 <Vorpal> I clicked one, the ominous fog one
17:10:44 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA*
17:11:09 <Vorpal> I learnt how to prevent myself from following links
17:11:15 <Vorpal> it is like zen
17:12:20 <nooga> I like Objective C, I think it's much better than C++
17:12:34 <Vonlebio> "I will not follow the link. The link is in my mind. There is no link."
17:13:19 <nooga> pitty that it's practically usable only under OSX
17:13:30 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, w3m -dump is useful for the feebleminded
17:13:35 <Vorpal> that renders it without links
17:13:37 <Vorpal> just the text
17:14:13 <cpressey> nooga: That part is what makes no sense to me. What other languages are so OS-dependant?
17:14:21 * Vonlebio has read enough of TV Tropes that he can avoid a massive tab explosion.
17:15:07 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, that isn't the way to do it, the way to do it is self control
17:15:13 <cpressey> "Massive Tab explosion" is what happens when you shake up a can of Tab really vigorously before you open it.
17:15:36 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, I'll do it the way I want, FASCIST
17:15:47 <Vorpal> :P
17:16:03 <Vorpal> cpressey, or mix mentos with tab
17:16:07 <nooga> cpressey: it's not the language, it's the library
17:16:45 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, as I touched on, there are free versions of large parts of the libraries.
17:16:48 <nooga> there is no sense in writing ObjC without any libs
17:17:10 <cpressey> WTF
17:17:26 <cpressey> this script relies on pyobjc for two values: obj.YES and obj.NO.
17:17:40 <Vorpal> <cpressey> nooga: That part is what makes no sense to me. What other languages are so OS-dependant? <-- VAX shell language?
17:17:42 <nooga> lol
17:18:18 <Vonlebio> cpressey, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNUstep
17:19:11 <cpressey> No, wait, it needs "AppKit"
17:19:18 <cpressey> This is horrible
17:19:23 <cpressey> I hate "scripters"
17:19:35 <Vonlebio> "Scripters"?
17:19:55 <cpressey> Non-programmers who write scripts.
17:20:08 <cpressey> I guess the quotes weren't necessary...
17:20:23 <Vonlebio> What's it meant to do?
17:22:11 <Vonlebio> Apparently GNUStep doesn't support PyObjC fully.
17:22:13 <cpressey> Render a web page and save it as a png. Should only need WebKit to do that
17:24:27 <cpressey> So I guess I'm going to try stripping this "useful Mac script" down to something that I can actually run
17:24:39 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well...
17:25:47 <Vonlebio> I think I've encountered a web-page-to-PNG renderer that only uses WebKit.
17:25:48 <cpressey> Or look for some other tool to do this
17:25:52 <Vonlebio> Although it might need X.
17:26:10 <cpressey> Yeah, that's a thing. Headlessness needed.
17:26:34 <Vonlebio> http://www.blogs.uni-osnabrueck.de/rotapken/2008/12/03/create-screenshots-of-a-web-page-using-python-and-qtwebkit/ is the relevant script.
17:26:46 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Thanks.
17:27:39 <Vonlebio> It needs QT, though.
17:28:27 <Vorpal> I need it to render to svg with embedded png for images!
17:30:26 <cpressey> Vonlebio: If it runs headless, I don't care. Actually, even if it doesn't, I can probably live with that. I'll need to run X in a VM though. Ugh.
17:30:58 <Vonlebio> cpressey, I recall headlessness being mentioned in a discussion elsewhere about a bot that uses that script.
17:32:58 <Vonlebio> Oh, it seems to need some form of X server running.
17:34:39 <cpressey> Yes it does. Well, ...
17:35:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, what do you need this for?
17:35:51 <Vonlebio> cpressey, what does "headless" mean here?
17:35:58 <Vonlebio> It can run on a displayless computer?
17:36:58 <cpressey> Vonlebio: It means I don't want to have to mess with graphics. Apparently that means "xvfb".
17:37:20 <fizzie> Xvfb is eas... gah. I should never even attempt to say anything.
17:38:06 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, you might want to try making the script work yourself.
17:38:17 <fizzie> I used to run Matlab under Xvfb, because with "-nodisplay" some image-drawing functions randomly segfaulted every now and then.
17:39:01 <cpressey> Vonlebio: That's what I'm doing. And... WOW, was that ever interesting.
17:39:28 <Vonlebio> cpressey, interesting in what sense?
17:39:36 <cpressey> Oh, I see. It spit the png out to stdout :)
17:40:12 <Vonlebio> Interesting in the "wow, that's clever!" sense or interesting in the "AAAAH it's trying to kill me with a screwdriver!" sense?
17:40:25 <Vonlebio> Oh, yeah, that got me too.
17:40:27 <cpressey> screwd. sens.
17:40:54 <Vonlebio> "-x Start an 'xvfb' instance"
17:41:37 <cpressey> And, it worked! Nice. I am happier now.
17:42:03 <cpressey> Oh, it supports it as a cmdline option. Also nice. I just ran it manually.
17:42:07 <cpressey> xvfb i mean
17:42:22 <nooga> cpressey: but scripting languages are programming languages
17:42:57 <Vonlebio> nooga, yeah, but they're more accessible to the uneducated.
17:43:26 <nooga> like Java?
17:43:29 <nooga> or C#?
17:44:36 <cpressey> It's more that they let you write code without thinking about its overall structure.
17:44:42 <Vonlebio> Who would write a screengrabber with Java?
17:44:48 <cpressey> Java and C# don't have that tendency.
17:44:53 * Vonlebio instantly regrets asking that
17:45:44 <alise> Hi Vonlebio.
17:45:49 <alise> You new here?
17:46:11 <Vonlebio> alise, no, PH.
17:46:21 <Vonlebio> I changed on a whim.
17:46:30 <Vonlebio> I'll probably go back by tomorrow.
17:47:44 <alise> <Vonlebio> I've observed before that xkcd's format is increasingly similar to that of SMBC. ;; but worse
17:48:11 <alise> <cpressey> I love how PyObjC is like this "Mac thing".
17:48:11 <alise> <cpressey> Er, yeah, to the degree that it's setup script actually has Mac-specific calls in it. ;; nobody, and I mean nobody, uses objc outside of either OS X or GnuStep
17:48:13 <alise> and only morons use GnuStep
17:48:47 <alise> <cpressey> I mainly just want to run webkit2png. ;; I think webkit/objc is os x-specific
17:48:57 <oerjan> gnus don't step, they stampede
17:49:07 <Vonlebio> Or people who wrote Mac software and later thought "hey, it would have been nice if this was portable".
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17:50:00 <alise> <cpressey> Render a web page and save it as a png. Should only need WebKit to do that ;; paul hammond is a programmer afaik
17:50:17 <cpressey> alise: A MAC programmer.
17:50:21 <cpressey> They barely count.
17:50:54 <cpressey> alise: Anyway, problem solved.
17:51:30 <alise> cpressey: Hey hey hey, there are some cool mac programmers. :)
17:52:15 <cpressey> I'm dead serious when I say that all Mac programmers are scum, of course.
17:52:54 <alise> :p
17:53:38 <Vonlebio> cpressey, why?
17:54:07 <Vonlebio> I was a Mac programmer for about 3 months!
17:54:17 <alise> Whoosh.
17:57:44 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Was this that course where they taught you to program in HyperCard?
17:57:54 <Vonlebio> No.
17:58:23 <alise> music tagging is so subtle. i love it
17:58:23 <Vonlebio> It was when the only computer I had was a Mac, and I was beginning to learn to program.
17:59:09 <alise> pikhq: Wow, I actually found what I consider an error, not merely a difference of opinion, in MusicBrainz.
17:59:15 <pikhq> alise: Oh?
17:59:16 <alise> I mean, sure, it's /justifiable/, but I still think it's Wrong.
17:59:25 <Vonlebio> So I was only a Mac programmer in a pedantic sense.
17:59:38 <alise> pikhq: http://musicbrainz.org/release/4b374b09-2e39-47a3-9819-8a0eae21db66.html All the tracks were released as untitled; names for them, sans brackets, were then posted on their website.
18:00:01 <alise> pikhq: In my opinion, they should either stick to the release - in which case they should all be "[untitled]" - or go with the posted names, thus removing the brackets.
18:00:07 <pikhq> alise: That's genuinely wrong.
18:00:09 <alise> As it stands, neither source agrees with the names they are given in MusicBrainz.
18:01:00 <alise> pikhq: But it's talked about above the track names, so presumably it's been "agreed "on.
18:01:04 <alise> *"agreed" on.
18:01:04 <alise> Bleh.
18:02:19 <alise> pikhq: Meanwhile, I'm consdiering using mutagen (Quod Libet / Ex Falso's Python tagging module) to create a defuck_musicbrainz_tags script.
18:03:21 <alise> That is, eliminate albumartist if albumartist = artist for all tracks, eliminate albumartistsort, eliminate arranger, eliminate artistsort, eliminate asin, eliminate catalognumber, simplify date to just year, eliminate engineer, eliminate format, eliminate label, eliminate language, eliminate mixer, eliminate musicbrainz_*, eliminate performer, eliminate producer, eliminate release*, eliminate script.
18:03:32 <alise> Because good god that's excessively retarded tagging.
18:04:24 <alise> Oh, eliminate barcode too. And isrc.
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18:05:59 <cpressey> "This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful"
18:06:09 <alise> :D
18:06:36 <alise> "I violated your license? Oh really? But you state on your website that 'this program is a useless piece of shit'. Doesn't sound like you HOPE IT WILL BE USEFUL... I'm suing your for VIOLATING YOUR OWN LICENSE."
18:06:41 <alise> *logic*
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18:07:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, what would that mean in practise?
18:07:34 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:08:09 * Vorpal ponders putting "this program is distributed in the absurd hope that it will prove useful to someone" in a befunge-98 program
18:08:48 <cpressey> Vorpal: What would it be like if we all lived in gigantic egg cartons?
18:09:02 <alise> cpressey: Sexy.
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18:09:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, problematic unless they were protected against the rain and snow in some way
18:09:41 <alise> pikhq: there's a music player twritten in \sh.
18:09:47 <alise> http://zomg.alioth.debian.org/
18:09:51 <alise> It supports (last|libre).fm.
18:10:00 <Vorpal> cpressey, what do you think?
18:11:01 <Vorpal> cpressey, well?
18:11:14 <alise> i had a dream that i installed alsa
18:11:17 <alise> then i woke up and laughed at myself
18:11:18 <cpressey> Vorpal: Don't diss NextStep. Charles Sanders Peirce used NextStep.
18:11:26 <Vorpal> cpressey, I haven't done so
18:11:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, also who is that?
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18:11:58 <alise> Firstly, >_<
18:12:01 <alise> Secondly, ...
18:12:02 <Vorpal> ah googling indicates he can't have
18:12:05 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
18:12:10 <alise> Thirdly, . . . you don't fucking know who peirce is
18:12:22 <cpressey> Vorpal: I disagree. The pony is a perfectly integral part of the portrait. Without it, the balance of the middleground would be all off.
18:12:26 * pikhq should get coffee. And breakfast.
18:12:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, want some dried frog pills, old chap?
18:14:38 * cpressey should go to the bank. And get lunch.
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18:20:54 <Vonlebio> asta!
18:20:59 <Vonlebio> *pasta
18:21:07 <asta> hi
18:21:31 <Vonlebio> Be ye new to this garden of wonders?
18:22:01 <asta> well
18:22:02 <asta> not sure yet
18:22:13 <asta> what is this channel about?
18:22:24 <Vonlebio> Ostensibly, esoteric programming languages.
18:22:51 <asta> I didnt know of such a language
18:22:59 <asta> called like that
18:23:23 <Vonlebio> Well, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck is probably the canonical example.
18:23:44 <asta> oh
18:23:50 <asta> those binary like languages
18:23:56 <nooga> sorta
18:24:21 <Vonlebio> asta, machine code is pretty tame compared to some esolangs.
18:24:42 <asta> well
18:24:45 <asta> I don't really know
18:24:45 <asta> xd
18:25:09 <pikhq> Vonlebio: Except for the bit about machine code not being meant to be output by humans. ;)
18:25:26 <Vonlebio> pikhq, that only deters those without motivation.
18:25:42 <pikhq> Vonlebio: True.
18:25:51 <Vonlebio> With ^V and a meta key, you can type most bytes, AFAIK.
18:26:47 <nooga> like
18:26:54 * Vonlebio reconsiders
18:27:19 <nooga> !sadol :i+19@i(3!i!"1 :i-i1
18:27:20 <EgoBot> 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
18:27:38 * pikhq notes that Chromium takes quite some time to build
18:27:55 -!- asta has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
18:28:21 <nooga> hehe
18:28:24 <Vonlebio> Damn, another sane mind we can't destroy.
18:29:32 <nooga> another random newcomer that was blown away
18:29:36 <nooga> :D
18:30:35 <pikhq> alise: By *god* the Brainfuck Scheduler is impressive.
18:31:05 <nooga> what? where?
18:31:12 <Vonlebio> "BFS is unrelated to the brainfuck programming language."
18:31:28 <pikhq> nooga: It's only called "Brainfuck" because it's really absurdly simple, not due to any relation with the language.
18:31:33 <Vonlebio> I had something angry to shout, but I have forgotten what it was.
18:31:54 <alise> Brain Fuck Scheduler.
18:31:56 <alise> Not Brainfuck :P
18:32:04 <Vonlebio> DEATH TO THEM
18:32:05 <pikhq> Sorry.
18:32:40 <nooga> url plz
18:32:49 <alise> nooga: google
18:32:55 <alise> con kolivas requires no linking!
18:33:58 <Vonlebio> But it's not ESOTERIC!
18:34:06 <nooga> ah
18:36:29 <Vonlebio> Bloody kernel programmers, stealing our names for things.
18:37:50 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:38:14 <alise> pikhq: Also flaw of MusicBrainz: They use "", don't and ....
18:38:30 <alise> Not “”, don’t and ….
18:40:19 <alise> pikhq: This is clearly UNACCEPTABLE!
18:40:23 <Vonlebio> " * P′′ was the first "GOTO-less" imperative structured programming language to be proven1,2 Turing-complete."
18:40:28 <pikhq> alise: ALL HAIL UNICODE
18:40:47 <Vonlebio> In '64? That seems a very long time...
18:40:57 <alise> Vonlebio: ago?
18:41:06 <alise> pikhq: Of course, how to tag something that is /listed on the only website it's distributed on with a "..."/ is another matter entirely.
18:41:11 <alise> And I have no idea what the matter is.
18:41:14 <Vonlebio> No, since Church and Turing.
18:41:27 -!- jcp has joined.
18:41:43 <alise> Vonlebio: well, computers were very immature in 60s
18:41:52 <alise> *the 60s
18:41:53 <alise> programming moreso
18:41:56 <alise> everyone just goto'd
18:42:19 <Vonlebio> alise, true, but the theory was fairly old.
18:42:20 <nooga> alise: why?
18:42:26 <alise> nooga: 'cause they were
18:42:34 <nooga> i mena
18:42:37 <nooga> huh
18:42:39 <nooga> i meant
18:42:39 <alise> i mena haskel
18:42:48 <alise> *haskal
18:42:49 <Vonlebio> nooga, name a machine that supports structured programming on a machine level.
18:43:15 <nooga> nevermind
18:43:35 <nooga> i got new flatmate
18:44:07 <nooga> guy's from Nigeria and uses ghetto-like english
18:44:17 <nooga> i can't understand him at all
18:48:56 <alise> pikhq: Actually, the tracks of that album are arguably titled "untitled", not [untitled]...
18:49:03 <alise> Terribly confusing.
18:50:13 <Vorpal> <Vonlebio> nooga, name a machine that supports structured programming on a machine level.
18:50:13 <Vorpal> <nooga> nevermind
18:50:16 <Vorpal> awesome XD
18:50:52 <alise> Come to think of it, it's not even certain that the title is ( ).
18:55:14 <cpressey> I name it "Evanine".
18:55:53 <Vonlebio> cpressey, what?
18:56:05 <cpressey> A machine that supports etc.
18:57:29 <alise> print a[0]; print a[1]; print a[2]; etc
18:57:37 <alise> == for x in a { print x }
18:57:46 <alise> it supports etc.!
19:01:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:04:00 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:05:43 -!- Vonlebio has joined.
19:06:05 <Vonlebio> What supports etc.?
19:07:39 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, there is a brainfuck CPU iirc
19:08:00 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, hardly mainstream
19:12:01 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, well no
19:12:10 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, you didn't specify that
19:17:53 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
19:18:01 <Gregor-W> zomgsicles! 's my last day at this internship!
19:18:53 <Vonlebio> Gregor-W, NOT WRITE PAPER ON WEBERNETS ANY MORE?
19:19:09 <Gregor-W> Still write papers on webernets!
19:19:16 <Gregor-W> (And according to the OED, it's "Interweb")
19:21:29 <oerjan> interns write papers on the internet, silly
19:22:37 <Gregor-W> *interweb
19:22:52 * oerjan swats Gregor-W -----###
19:23:13 <oerjan> that _clearly_ misses an n
19:23:53 <Gregor-W> oerjan: http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2010/08/new_words
19:24:11 <Sgeo> internwebernets?
19:25:21 <oerjan> also that clearly states that it wioll not haven been the OED
19:25:41 * oerjan swats Gregor-W again -----###
19:26:12 <oerjan> (for still not getting the pun after being prodded)
19:26:38 <Gregor-W> I see the pun, but I refuse to get it.
19:27:10 <oerjan> i know it felt strange, like an anti-pun
19:31:56 <alise> "As pointed out in the comments, these are additions to the one-volume Oxford Dictionary of English, and not the grand and celebrated OED. That changed the tenor of things a bit."
19:32:00 <alise> people are mistaking the two a lot recently
19:34:07 <Gregor-W> D'aww boo.
19:34:55 <pikhq> Fekking ODE. Such bullshit.
19:35:27 -!- augur has joined.
19:35:28 <oerjan> Oh ODE, how thee are. An ode.
19:35:56 <alise> Odeor.
19:36:01 <oerjan> Oh dear.
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20:00:23 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:01:47 <Vorpal> <oerjan> interns write papers on the internet, silly <-- augh
20:03:25 <alise> ets write the internet on paper
20:04:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, and damn you beating me at the ode to ODE
20:08:17 <oerjan> an odious sentiment
20:12:11 <Vonlebio> alise, by hand?
20:13:34 <oerjan> these are ets, they probably use telekinesis
20:13:37 <alise> Vonlebio: yes.
20:13:42 <alise> oerjan: that too
20:13:46 <alise> they use telekinesis to move their own hand.
20:14:09 <Vonlebio> alise, what kind of et is it?
20:14:26 <alise> well in nethack they're a &
20:14:29 * alise is shot
20:16:00 <Vonlebio> alise, fascinating.
20:16:13 <Vonlebio> Major, minor or mail?
20:19:08 <alise> Et.
20:19:12 <alise> (You do get it, right?)
20:19:57 <alise> http://pastie.org/1104745.txt?key=oxr3tpcdipt865rkbqzjog
20:20:01 <alise> In which Python gets gnarly.
20:20:12 <alise> *self.handlers.append
20:21:28 <alise> Erm, I need to handle flags == None
20:21:30 <alise> *None.
20:22:34 <cpressey> You can hardly call it gnarly if you haven't overridden a double-underscore method somewhere yet!
20:22:35 <Vonlebio> alise, of course I get it.
20:22:45 <Vonlebio> I'll have you know that I am a scholar of Latin!
20:22:59 <alise> cpressey: Can it count as more gnarly if this is from an /IRC bot/?
20:23:46 <Vonlebio> # FIXME: Handle exceptions (call some exception handler?)
20:23:48 <cpressey> alise: A bit, but it depends a lot on what's calling it. If you're somehow actually managing to use the decorator syntax to apply this, then TOTALLY YES.
20:24:01 <Vonlebio> Well, that is an appropriate way of handling exceptions.
20:24:33 <Vonlebio> I haven't been able to tolerate decorators since I saw those "monads" in Python.
20:24:51 <alise> cpressey:
20:24:53 <alise> @on_message(r'^\?(.*)$')
20:24:54 <alise> def consult(ctx, topic):
20:24:54 <alise> topic = topic.lower()
20:24:54 <alise> if topic in wisdom:
20:24:54 <alise> ctx.reply('%s is %s' % (topic, wisdom[topic]))
20:24:55 <alise> else:
20:24:57 <alise> ctx.reply(random.choice(dunno) % (topic,))
20:25:09 <cpressey> Then TOTALLY YES.
20:25:14 <alise> cpressey: i.e., if a message comes in that looks like "?foo bar", we dispense some wisdom about it.
20:25:23 <alise> Wisdom-enhancing process:
20:25:25 <alise> @on_addressed(r'(.+?) is (.+)')
20:25:25 <alise> def enlighten(ctx, topic, knowledge):
20:25:25 <alise> wisdom[topic] = knowledge
20:25:25 <alise> ctx.reply(random.choice(thanks))
20:25:40 <alise> i.e. "botte: dung is awesome" -> "?dung" "dung is awesome"
20:25:43 <Vonlebio> alise, this wouldn't be for Rodney, would it?
20:25:46 <alise> also "botte, x"
20:25:48 <alise> Vonlebio: no, it's for botte
20:25:52 <alise> I decided to finally write botte v1
20:25:57 <alise> and this is the infobot plugin ("wisdom")
20:26:13 <Vonlebio> Will it interpret esolangs?
20:26:16 <cpressey> I wasn't aware decorators could take a 'self' like that. I feel very dirty now.
20:26:30 <alise> cpressey: How is it taking a self?
20:26:33 <alise> cpressey: Oh, no, that's my doing.
20:26:39 <alise> def load_plugin(self):
20:26:40 <alise> env = {
20:26:40 <alise> 'on_message': self.on_message,
20:26:40 <alise> 'on_addressed': self.on_addressed,
20:26:40 <alise> 'Unhandled': Unhandled,
20:26:40 <alise> }
20:26:41 <alise> ...
20:26:55 <alise> I /could/ put them in a separate object, but it's more convenient to use "self.bot" and the like, so I keep them in the Plugin class.
20:27:26 <cpressey> Yes. That is exactly what you are scoring the gnarly points with.
20:27:46 <alise> It's not actually that gnarly, just... overly indented.
20:27:56 <Vonlebio> alise, yes, but will it interpret esolangs??
20:28:01 <alise> Vonlebio: yes.
20:28:14 <alise> and non-esolangs (I was executing arbitrary code before HackEgo and EgoBot, back in the day)
20:28:18 <Vonlebio> Which ons?
20:28:21 <Vonlebio> s/ons/ones/
20:28:22 <alise> all of them.
20:28:27 <alise> and a variety of commands ranging from completely useless to vaguely useful
20:28:36 <alise> and commands to look up -- dictionaries, wikipedia, google, etc.
20:28:38 <alise> probably a karma system
20:28:46 <alise> basically it's the One Bot to Rule Them All
20:28:51 <alise> and i've been promising to write it for over a year now
20:29:15 <alise> this is just v1, i will undoubtedly rewrite the entire infrastructure many times before it can do all that
20:29:25 <fizzie> fungot: Are you going to take that sort of talk without a fight?
20:29:25 <fungot> fizzie: because you can have a k in it
20:30:17 <fizzie> I guess that was a "yes".
20:30:27 <alise> fizzie: he accepts my bot's superiority because i can have a K interpreter
20:30:31 <alise> whereas fungot, being written in befunge, cannot.
20:30:32 <fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
20:30:40 <alise> `addquote <fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
20:30:41 <fungot> alise: esolangs.org/ wiki/ index.php?title=main_page use exact numbers. you can imagine. and it probably no longer say that our aim cost/ user is pretty low
20:30:44 <alise> fungot: Sure, let's go with that.
20:30:44 <fungot> alise: currently fnord.
20:30:56 <HackEgo> 216|<fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
20:30:59 <alise> Vonlebio: Oh, and, of course, a Better Log Bot.
20:31:17 <Vonlebio> alise, i.e. able to handle Unicode nicely?
20:31:27 <Vonlebio> Or being told to shut up if we need it to?
20:31:28 <alise> Well, clog does, the web server just doesn't tell you.
20:31:35 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:31:38 <alise> Vonlebio: With logs imported from clog and fizzie's logs in a unified format, new logs appended 24/7, a nice web interface (no need to reformat or get a headache)
20:31:44 <Vonlebio> For when we discuss top secret things.
20:31:44 <alise> No shutting up, don't say stupid shit in here :)
20:31:54 <Vonlebio> But SECRET THINGS.
20:31:57 <alise> Oh.
20:31:59 <alise> And greppable logs too.
20:32:04 <alise> And always in UTC format (reformatting the older logs).
20:32:11 <alise> Greppable = web interface to regexp and freetext search
20:32:11 <Vonlebio> But what if we need to discuss SECRETS?
20:32:16 <alise> both, that is
20:32:19 <alise> and author search
20:32:23 <alise> and date constraints
20:33:15 <alise> Vonlebio: I think this is a pretty clean infobot plugin: http://pastie.org/1104765.txt?key=oqqptogcuv8u5318ladxa
20:33:23 <alise> Without the colourful responses, it'd only be a few lines.
20:33:26 <Vonlebio> infobot?
20:33:38 <alise> Vonlebio: infobot is the thing that lets people give definitions of stuff, then recall them later
20:33:59 <Vonlebio> These things are cool.
20:34:35 <alise> for instance, a serious use:
20:34:36 <alise> <expert> botte: brainfuck is probably the most popular esolang, invented by Urban Müller in 1992
20:34:36 <alise> <botte> expert: Duly noted.
20:34:36 <alise> ...
20:34:36 <alise> <noob> ?brainfuck
20:34:36 <alise> <botte> noob: brainfuck is probably the most popular esolang, invented by Urban Müller in 1992
20:35:06 <alise> Not so serious:
20:35:07 <alise> <expert> botte: botte is afraid of introspection
20:35:07 <alise> <botte> expert: Ah! I get it now.
20:35:07 <alise> ...
20:35:07 <alise> <person> ?botte
20:35:08 <alise> <botte> person: botte is afraid of introspection
20:35:16 <alise> (<expert> botte: lolcode is an abomination)
20:35:34 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:35:38 <alise> hmm, i should support are as well as is
20:35:41 <alise> "esolangs are sweet" etc.
20:35:50 <Vonlebio> alise, lolcode isn't that bad.
20:35:58 <alise> Yes; yes it is.
20:35:59 <Vonlebio> Although it's rather boring.
20:36:48 <alise> A bunch of incompetent morons with a retarded enough sense of humour to think a language based on lolcat speak is amusing, forming Committees and having Design Discussions to create a Versioned Specification combining the most braindead ways of implementing conventional, boring but somehow altered to be moronic, language facets.
20:37:16 <alise> SimonRC took part in the specification of one to troll them; he managed to get them to include two different ways of doing the same thing just because he argued about it.
20:37:19 <Vonlebio> That bit is bad.
20:37:24 <alise> (Like, the exact same thing.)
20:37:30 <alise> Vonlebio: That bit -- you mean all of it?
20:37:35 <Vonlebio> Yes.
20:37:50 <Vonlebio> Although I thought having "GTFO" for break was mildly amusing.
20:37:51 <cpressey> omg they haz a spec?
20:38:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, didn't you know?
20:38:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, YES HORRIBLE ISN'T IT?
20:39:58 <Vonlebio> alise, maybe it's boring, conventional stupidity taken to the max.
20:40:39 <Vorpal> <Vonlebio> I haven't been able to tolerate decorators since I saw those "monads" in Python.
20:40:40 <Vorpal> whaaat
20:40:45 <Vorpal> monads in python?
20:40:51 <Vonlebio> No, "monads".
20:40:55 <Vorpal> ah
20:41:03 <Vorpal> Vorpal, link?
20:41:05 <Vonlebio> Python's type system can't do monads, AFAIK.
20:41:34 <Vorpal> yes that is what I thought
20:41:38 <Vorpal> so link to the "monads"
20:41:41 <Vonlebio> http://www.valuedlessons.com/2008/01/monads-in-python-with-nice-syntax.html
20:42:02 <Vonlebio> It might be possible in a certain sense, though.
20:42:42 <Vonlebio> Since Python has first-class types(/classes), so you perhaps might be able to have something like functors etc.
20:43:44 <Vorpal> " I'm using ">>" (__rshift__) overloaded to mean "bind". " <-- aaaaaaaargh
20:43:51 <Vorpal> I hate operator overloading abuse
20:43:54 <Vonlebio> Yeah, that's heresy.
20:44:02 <Vonlebio> He should have overloaded >>=.
20:44:11 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, it's just as bad as C++ bitshifting of strings into stdout/stdin
20:44:25 <Vorpal> Vorpal, does python have that separately?
20:44:31 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, well, it's at least slightly justified
20:44:40 <Vonlebio> And why do you keep talking to yourself?
20:44:44 <Vorpal> argh
20:44:45 <alise> as we all know string+string is abuse
20:44:47 <Vorpal> Vo<tab>
20:44:48 <Vorpal> and
20:44:48 <alise> it should be string*string!
20:44:58 <Vorpal> highlight last spoken
20:45:03 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, see the issue?
20:45:11 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, I do.
20:45:17 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, change nick :P
20:45:37 <Vonlebio> Vonlebio, NEVER! I made this nick up with my own sweat and blood!
20:45:53 <Vonlebio> You just stole a word from Jabberwocky!
20:45:54 <cpressey> apparently monads are "estoric"
20:46:12 <oerjan> an 'estoric coinage
20:48:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, I thought nomads were the esoteric ones
20:48:16 <Vorpal> as coined by ehird
20:48:44 <Vonlebio> Define nomads?
20:48:58 <alise> i didn't invent monads dammit
20:49:02 <alise> it's just an old /prog/ meme
20:49:04 <cpressey> Vonlebio: The cpressey school of monads doesn't regard them as having anything to do with types. For whatever you might care about that.
20:49:26 <alise> The Retarded Monkey School of Nomic is comprised entirely of stoned English teachers.
20:49:31 <alise> For whatever you might care about that.
20:49:37 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, ask alise
20:49:49 <alise> The motto is "I SAY I DO" / "THEREFORE I DO", except in Latin.
20:50:11 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, monads are, by definition, functors.
20:50:41 <cpressey> alise: Oh, is that what it translates to? I always thought it was something about throwing your own poo around. But, my Latin is pretty shoddy.
20:51:03 <alise> cpressey: Yes, well.
20:51:22 <alise> ANTE SHITTUS ERGO SELF SHITTUS can be deceiving.
20:51:48 <Vonlebio> See my above comment re: Latin.
20:52:31 <alise> Vonlebio: where?
20:52:50 <Vonlebio> Around "ets".
20:53:55 <Vonlebio> cpressey, what does the cpressey school of monads say?
20:54:10 <Vonlebio> That a monad is something with bind and return?
20:55:52 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(category_theory)
20:56:05 <cpressey> That a monad is an encapsulation of the pattern of passing an argument between a set of functions.
20:56:18 <alise> Erm ... no.
20:56:22 <alise> It really, really isn't.
20:56:25 <alise> See, for instance, the continuation monad.
20:56:30 <alise> What you're describing is the STATE monad.
20:56:34 <alise> Which is one, single monad.
20:56:57 <Vonlebio> cpressey, you seem to be using a lot of professional developmenty terms here.
20:57:14 <cpressey> So the continuation monad isn't intended to pass a continuation between a set of functions? That's... quite surprising.
20:57:43 <pikhq> cpressey: No, the continuation monad performs the continuation-passing transform.
20:57:43 <Vonlebio> cpressey, most monads are used to pass some kind of state "behind the scenes", but how they do this varies considerably.
20:57:56 -!- sftp has joined.
20:58:00 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Yes, well. I develop software. Surprise?
20:58:03 <Vonlebio> s/most/a lot of/
20:58:14 <Vonlebio> cpressey, no.
20:58:51 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:59:03 <Vonlebio> Anyway, the Maybe monad hides state, i.e. whether any computation fails, but it doesn't use hidden arguments.
20:59:40 <pikhq> That's not hiding any state at all.
20:59:48 <Vonlebio> pikhq, fine.
21:00:04 <Vonlebio> In hindsight, that was not really correct.
21:00:54 <Vonlebio> s/really/at all/
21:01:06 -!- augur has joined.
21:02:25 <cpressey> pikhq: Do you mean "support" the CPS transform, i.e. run code that has been transformed into continuation-passing style? Because I can't see how a monad could possibly "transform" code in that sense.
21:03:04 <alise> cpressey: please read the cont monad source
21:03:16 <cpressey> alise: No. Me want English.
21:03:30 <alise> tough, you can't explain something like this to someone with such a broken mindset on it :p
21:03:35 <Vorpal> [207317.177787] gnome-settings-[1874]: segfault at 8 ip 00007f330e009d16 sp 00007fff1bac08b0 error 4 in libclipboard.so[7f330e007000+5000]
21:03:44 <Vonlebio> "In functional programming, a monad is a kind of abstract data type constructor used to represent computations (instead of data in the domain model)."
21:03:48 <alise> Vorpal: Ha ha.
21:03:56 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, stop dragging our THEORY down.
21:04:03 <alise> Vonlebio: that's not even good theory
21:04:06 <alise> that's just crap
21:04:10 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, what?
21:04:12 * Vonlebio was quoting WP.
21:04:14 <cpressey> I see no theory at all here.
21:04:38 <alise> cpressey: newtype Cont r a = Cont { runCont :: (a -> r) -> r }
21:04:46 <alise> instance Monad (Cont r) where
21:04:47 <alise> return n = Cont (\k -> k n)
21:04:47 <alise> m >>= f = Cont (\k -> runCont m (\a -> runCont (f a) k))
21:04:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
21:05:04 <pikhq> It really truly does the continuation-passing transform.
21:05:11 <alise> pikhq: well, almost
21:05:13 <alise> do notation does the rest
21:05:15 <Vonlebio> Wow, neat.
21:05:25 <pikhq> alise: Well. Yeah.
21:05:26 <alise> in fact do notation does most of it
21:05:31 <alise> but it's still more than just passing an argument around
21:05:42 <alise> if we had type synonyms as instances in a proper way
21:05:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:05:44 <alise> we could say, more simply,
21:06:13 <cpressey> Yeah, I have no idea what that's doing.
21:06:32 <Vonlebio> cpressey, can't you see he's TYPING?
21:07:08 <alise> instance Monad ((a -> r) -> r) where
21:07:09 <alise> return n = \k -> k n -- i.e. take a continuation, give it the returned value
21:07:09 <alise> m >>= g = \k -> m (\a -> f a k) -- i.e. take a continuation, run m with our continuation; pass the result on to f, and tell f to use the continuation we got as its continuation
21:07:58 * Sgeo should probably shave
21:08:11 <alise> what's the IRC terminology for the sender of a message, be it a server or a user?
21:11:59 <Vorpal> alise, what about "sender of a message, be it a server or a user"
21:12:16 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why!?
21:12:21 <Vorpal> Sgeo, beard >> no beard
21:12:28 <alise> Vorpal: one word.
21:12:37 <Vonlebio> Vorpal, beard isn't a monad.
21:12:42 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, :P
21:12:46 <Vorpal> alise, no clue
21:12:49 <Vorpal> bbiab
21:13:58 <Warrigal> alise: like, the direct sender, the guy I got the message directly from, as opposed to the guy whose name is in the message's prefix?
21:14:28 <alise> Warrigal: the guy in the :... beginning.
21:14:32 <alise> I guess "sender".
21:14:34 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya.
21:14:42 <Warrigal> Oh, so it is the guy in the prefix.
21:16:12 <Warrigal> Yeah, "sender" or "origin".
21:17:27 -!- derdon has joined.
21:20:27 <cpressey> pikhq: I still have to say I disagree, based on what I learned "the continuation-passing transform" is. If you have a program written in non-CPS, the continuation monad cannot turn it into a program written in CPS. It could /support/ you, or some compiler, doing that transformation: you could rewrite the code in CPS in a way that uses that monad. Presumably we simply have different understandings of what the "transfor
21:20:30 <alise> Warrigal: Got a better name than "reply_to" for -- say ":<sender> PRIVMSG <target> :<message>" -- if target = me { sender } else { target }
21:20:33 <alise> ?
21:20:40 <alise> i.e. "where to send replies to"
21:21:48 <Warrigal> Not unless you want to call it "window" or something.
21:22:56 <alise> heh
21:23:03 <alise> Warrigal: maybe "postcard"
21:23:05 <alise> (replies on a ...)
21:23:19 <pikhq> cpressey: It does perform that precise transform on code written using >>= and return. :)
21:23:43 <pikhq> However, it only really provides this on code within that monad. Because monads are not magic.
21:24:16 <Vonlebio> cpressey, it doesn't CPSify normal code; it allows code to be written in CPS easily.
21:24:42 <cpressey> And I'm failing to see how this is substantially different from abstracting away (encapsulating) a "continuation" parameter to a bunch of functions.
21:26:35 <alise> Indeed you are failing in such a manner.
21:27:40 <cpressey> Perhaps I should clarify -- when I used the word "encapsulate" I did mean to imply that the monad can "do stuff that you can't see" with the extra argument. If that implication wasn't conveyed strongly enough, I could see how you would think I was only talking about the state monad (= don't do anything to the extra argument.)
21:28:38 <cpressey> Like, if it wasn't obvious: in the absence of monads, the CPS transform *adds* an argument to all your functions.
21:29:15 <Vonlebio> cpressey, monads don't necessarily have a hidden argument.
21:29:19 <Vonlebio> Again, Maybe.
21:29:54 <cpressey> How would you implement those patterns if you didn't have monads?
21:30:11 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, Maybe can be done without monads.
21:31:05 <Vonlebio> cpressey, http://www.haskell.org/all_about_monads/html/meet.html
21:32:22 -!- alise has changed nick to botte.
21:32:43 <botte> -NickServ- Invalid password for botte.
21:32:44 <botte> shitfuck
21:33:24 -!- botte has changed nick to alise.
21:35:19 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:35:37 -!- Vonlebio has joined.
21:40:46 <alise> File "/home/ehird/src/botte/plugins/wisdom.py", line 23, in consult
21:40:46 <alise> if topic in wisdom:
21:40:46 <alise> NameError: global name 'wisdom' is not defined
21:40:48 <alise> Wut? So is.
21:41:50 <Vonlebio> Is not!
21:42:18 <alise> It is.
21:42:27 <alise> It'll be my namespace fuckery that's breaking it...
21:46:38 <Vonlebio> Incidentally, I was wondering if it was possible to do dependent types in Python in some form.
21:47:10 <Vonlebio> By "form" I mean "horrifically ugly hack", of course.
21:47:36 <alise> does habnabit ever do anything but interrogate you so he can tell you you're doing the wrong thing?
21:48:30 <Vonlebio> Habnabit?
21:48:44 <alise> #python dominator
21:49:18 <alise> "how can i do a, b, c?" <habnabit> don't do that <habnabit> what are you trying to do? "I am trying to ..." <habnabit> don't do that
21:49:20 <alise> etc.
21:49:25 <alise> and no question ever finds a simple answer.
21:49:35 <alise> you know the type
21:49:45 <alise> Because we CARE!
21:50:40 <Vonlebio> alise, you lose points for capitalising all of questions and thus missing the Qu ligature.
21:52:26 <alise> i'm using another font now
21:52:26 <alise> so ah
21:52:27 <alise> *ha
21:52:51 <Vonlebio> TRAITOR
21:53:14 <Vonlebio> How can you use a font without the Qu ligature‽
21:56:03 <Vorpal> Vonlebio, the same way I can use dejavu sans mono 9pt for irc?
21:56:09 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Well, you're not going to like my answer to that (the Maybe monad thing.)
21:56:57 <Vonlebio> Well, I might.
21:57:05 <Vonlebio> I want to hear it in any case.
21:57:53 <cpressey> You can have a perfectly usable Maybe without treating it as a monad, yes?
21:58:03 <Vonlebio> You can, yes
21:58:14 <cpressey> Then, as monads go, it's a degenerate case.
21:58:27 <Vonlebio> But treating it as a monad makes code far better.
21:58:46 <Vonlebio> It's shorter and more easily maintained, and you get the do syntactic sugar.
21:59:03 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Uh. ...
21:59:09 <Vonlebio> And you can use State and Cont without treating them as monads.
21:59:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:59:27 <Vonlebio> It's just going to be horribe.
21:59:35 <Vonlebio> *horrible.
21:59:41 <cpressey> That's missing the point very much.
21:59:46 <Ilari> Heh.... there's nick called McHazard on this IRC network... Wonder what kind of thing would McHazard be in McDonalds? :->
22:00:01 <Vonlebio> cpressey, what is the point?
22:00:20 <Vonlebio> In any case, it's not a "degenerate case" of monads.
22:00:29 <alise> pikhq: How did you get Quod Libet to display multi-disc albums reasonably?
22:00:37 <alise> <cpressey> You can have a perfectly usable Maybe without treating it as a monad, yes?
22:00:41 <alise> Uh.
22:00:41 <alise> No.
22:00:44 <Vonlebio> It is a monad, and it obeys the monad laws; there's no other definition.
22:00:44 <alise> Not in the way the Maybe monad does it.
22:00:58 <alise> Ilari: any item on the mcdonald's menu
22:01:41 <Vonlebio> !haskell :i Maybe
22:01:42 <Ilari> How about Supersize coke, supersize fries, chicken salad with low-fat dressing?
22:01:46 <EgoBot> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a -- Defined in Data.Maybe
22:01:57 <alise> Ilari: Psht, salad?
22:03:41 <Ilari> Well, the hamburger would contain too much protein and too much good fats, so it isn't optimal here... :-)
22:03:42 <Vonlebio> cpressey, I mean, if you redefine monads, you can say whatever you want about them.
22:03:56 <cpressey> Vonlebio: True.
22:04:05 <alise> Ilari: Well. It's arguable whether McDonald's hamburgers even contain meat. :P
22:04:18 <Vonlebio> If a cpressey-monad is an encapsulation of extra parameters, then you are entirely correct.
22:04:34 <Vonlebio> But that's not what a computer science-monad is.
22:05:05 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Nor a category theory monad either, which is also slightly different, I agree.
22:05:16 <alise> category theory monad = computer science monad
22:05:20 <cpressey> alise: No.
22:05:23 <alise> yes.
22:05:26 <Vonlebio> cpressey, yes.
22:05:33 <cpressey> It's got a more specific name in category theory.
22:05:41 <alise> i don't think so.
22:06:32 <alise> DAMMIT QUODLIBET
22:06:35 <Vonlebio> cpressey, it's not immediately obvious, no
22:06:41 <alise> I'll declare war on Germany!
22:07:22 <cpressey> "As a minor terminological mismatch, the term monad in functional programming contexts is usually used with a meaning corresponding to that of the term strong monad in category theory, a specific kind of category-theoretical monad."
22:07:25 <cpressey> -WP
22:08:11 <cpressey> That's beside the point though.
22:08:25 -!- augur has joined.
22:08:51 <Vonlebio> cpressey, OK, and a cpressey-monad is nothing to do with a CS-monad.
22:09:00 <Vonlebio> Or a CT-monad.
22:09:10 <cpressey> Vonlebio: It's not a CS monad, but it's related.
22:09:22 <cpressey> I actually think I'm trying to get at the idea of an SE monad here.
22:09:43 <Vonlebio> SW?
22:09:44 <cpressey> i.e. *why* would you pick a monad to implement your solution? because your solution follows a certain pattern.
22:10:00 <Vonlebio> cpressey, true, but that pattern is not a cpressey-monad either.
22:10:08 <Vonlebio> Or not exclusively.
22:10:37 <Vonlebio> Again, see the Maybe example I linked.
22:10:46 <Vonlebio> The pattern is dealing with simple failure cases.
22:12:25 <cpressey> Hm, OK. I might be able to restate my idea. But it would be nice to have a more sophisticated counterexample than Maybe.
22:13:36 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, Cont, but that's a point of contention for you.
22:16:43 <cpressey> No, I can't. I give up.
22:16:51 <alise> *kant.
22:17:14 <Vonlebio> cpressey, hang on, IIRC Real World Haskell has some practical use cases for monads.
22:17:38 <cpressey> Vonlebio: I know practical use cases for monads; I'm trying to *generalize* from them, is the problem.
22:17:45 <Sgeo> alise, Fine Structure?
22:17:52 <alise> Sgeo: haven't read.
22:18:28 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, often it's to make some bookkeeping easier.
22:18:45 <Vonlebio> I *think* that's basically what Maybe, State and perhaps Cont do.
22:19:28 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Yes, but that's probably a little too general.
22:21:33 <alise> I /think/ I finally have a tagset I'm happy with now.
22:22:01 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well, there are lots of less general patterns for which you'd use monads.
22:22:07 <Vonlebio> Keeping track of state, for instance.
22:22:16 <Sgeo> Some ad:
22:22:17 <Sgeo> "If you can imagine it, you can build it! Create games and worlds in this building game."
22:22:29 <Sgeo> Well, of course I'm going to click
22:22:38 <alise> [ker-ching]
22:22:58 <Sgeo> It seems to be some lego thing
22:23:15 <Sgeo> "ROBLOX IS a kid-friendly place on the internet where your children can exercise their creativity in a moderated online environment."
22:23:29 <alise> So if you imagine, say, horsecat rape, you can't build it.
22:23:32 <alise> What a ripoff.
22:24:16 <Vonlebio> Call the ASA!
22:24:50 <alise> Actually what all this is making me realise is that modern audio and tagging formats SUCK for anything vaguely resembling classical music.
22:24:54 <Sgeo> "Don't like our clothes? Make your own!"
22:25:05 <Sgeo> Sounding like a crappy Kaneva so far
22:25:11 <alise> The honking-big-audio-file + time-tagged metadata file approach is beginning to look appealing to me.
22:25:34 <Sgeo> Of course, if there's any scripting-like stuff, I want in
22:26:30 <Sgeo> "Featured Free Game:"
22:26:35 <Sgeo> "By: NINJAKID09"
22:26:38 <Sgeo> That's promising
22:26:57 <Vonlebio> Never trust someone with numbers in their screen name.
22:26:59 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:27:03 <alise> pikhq: Do you know anything about your country's copyright office?
22:27:04 * cpressey hopes NINJAKID09 is not one year old.
22:27:20 <Vonlebio> Sorry ais523.
22:27:25 <Sgeo> "User forum: Scripting forum"
22:27:36 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:27:44 <Sgeo> It's Lua
22:27:49 <alise> maybe it's only copyrighted in canada :P
22:28:13 <coppro> alise: what?
22:28:21 <alise> coppro: do you have "canada" on highlight?
22:28:23 <Sgeo> http://www.roblox.com/Forum/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=13247888
22:28:28 <coppro> alise: no, I just walked in
22:28:30 <alise> i'm trying to look up the copyright registration for an album to determine its true title
22:28:37 <alise> it was recorded, released etc. in canada
22:28:41 <coppro> ah
22:28:47 <alise> so i'm trying to see if canada's IP office has a search form
22:28:50 <alise> (the US one turned up nothing)
22:28:51 <coppro> it doesn't
22:29:15 <coppro> at least, not a good one
22:29:19 <alise> coppro: a bad one will d
22:29:20 <alise> *do
22:29:36 <alise> here we go
22:29:38 <alise> http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/cpyrghts/dsplySrch.do?lang=eng
22:29:40 <coppro> http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/cpyrghts/dsplySrch.do?lang=eng
22:29:42 <alise> ok, i'll try band name first, then label names
22:30:14 <Sgeo> I don't think there are any pure social areas in Roblox
22:30:18 <alise> coppro: sheesh, how come the insidious claws of copyright are so untamed like this :)
22:30:25 <alise> you can't even look shit up to see whether it's copyrighted!
22:31:00 <coppro> alise: because the Berne convention did away with registration to obtain copyright
22:31:11 <cpressey> alise: Given that... what coppro said
22:31:20 <alise> coppro: i'm still uncertain that was a good idea
22:31:24 <cpressey> I was going to say, it wuold make more sense to have a registry of public-domain works instead
22:31:40 <cpressey> Not in that? Copyrighted.
22:31:48 <coppro> yuck
22:32:03 <Vonlebio> cpressey, would it help your quest for monad patterns to look at more of the existing monads?
22:32:04 <cpressey> Not saying it's not a stupid idea
22:32:08 * Sgeo vaguely hopes that it's not inappropriate for adults to be in Roblox
22:32:19 <cpressey> Vonlebio: Only if you know of some EXCITING ones.
22:32:26 <alise> <coppro> yuck ;; to cpressey's comment?
22:32:32 <alise> agreed
22:33:05 <Vonlebio> cpressey, well... Parsec uses a monad, but that's a) a bit opaque and b) basically an instance of the State general case.
22:33:18 <alise> coppro: but albums will surely be registered explicitly by the record label?
22:33:29 <coppro> alise: possibly
22:33:50 <alise> it appears it is not in their database. rats.
22:33:58 <coppro> a record label probably has enough internal documentation to make registration redundante
22:34:01 <coppro> *redundant
22:34:30 <alise> wikipedia claims it's one thing with the other title being referred to as an "also known as...", it's seemingly mostly listed as the wikipedia title on amazon, but discogs, musicbrainz and their (admittedly slapdash) official website refer to it as the other one
22:34:36 <alise> so i have absolutely no idea what the real title is
22:34:43 <alise> (they're minor variations on each other)
22:34:45 <Vonlebio> cpressey, the things in Control.Monad for me are: Cont, Error, Fix, Identity, Instances, List, RWS, Reader, ST, State, Trans and Writer.
22:35:03 <alise> coppro: ok, can i demand they give me their db? :D
22:36:07 <Vonlebio> Reader and Writer are basically the two halves of State.
22:36:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:38:28 <Sgeo> Grr
22:38:33 <Sgeo> It just _assumes_ that I'm a child
22:38:43 <Sgeo> Not only that, but that my email address is my parent's
22:38:58 <alise> Sgeo didn't like the signup form for disneybarbiedollcompany.com
22:39:00 <alise> *.com.
22:39:13 <alise> *disneybarbiedollcompanyplayhouse.com.
22:40:01 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/4daesglfyhtm3td2b9d1a
22:40:52 <Vonlebio> Sgeo, you're evidently the guy from All You Zombies.
22:40:57 <Sgeo> "Users can type their own messages to other users. Every message is filtered to allow only pre-approved words and phrases."
22:41:05 <coppro> ha
22:41:15 <Sgeo> Vonlebio, I don't get it
22:41:29 <Vonlebio> Sgeo, yes, and Google exists.
22:41:32 <alise> Sgeo: newspeak!
22:42:21 <alise> Vonlebio: *“—All You Zombies—”
22:42:25 <Sgeo> Vonlebio, oh, I've heard of it before
22:43:43 <Vonlebio> alise, I can't be bothered to type Heinlein's weird dashes.
22:43:56 <alise> Vonlebio: And quote marks.
22:44:11 <Vonlebio> alise, indeed.
22:44:21 <alise> Technically, if you're on a linear medium where you can't italicise the names of works, you should call it ‘“—All You Zombies—”’.
22:44:39 <alise> Or if you really like using double quote marks and don't mind distorting the name of the work, “‘—All You Zombies—’”.
22:44:59 <alise> Or if you really like using double quote marks and don't want to distort the name of the work, ““—All You Zombies—””.
22:45:21 <cpressey> Or just say "RH's AYZ" and we'll all know what you mean.
22:45:29 <Sgeo> Or, if you like abbreviations and destroying the name of the work... damn it, cpressey
22:45:44 <alise> cpressey: That's not so likely. :)
22:53:56 <cpressey> You're right, better make that "RAH's AYZ".
22:54:45 <alise> rhayz
22:54:55 <alise> imbcp
23:01:33 <cpressey> &bull;
23:12:03 <cpressey> alise: WAITAMINIT
23:12:10 <cpressey> You were coding web apps in Ruby?
23:13:08 <Vonlebio> cpressey, huh?
23:13:32 <cpressey> Vonlebio: I just remembered her saying something about that a few days ago
23:13:35 <cpressey> YOU THINK YOU KNOW SOMEONE
23:13:45 <Vonlebio> I am appalled!
23:14:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:15:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:20:01 <Vonlebio> ais523, I found a fatal flaw in your Wolfram TM universality proof.
23:20:14 <ais523> Vonlebio: really?
23:20:21 <ais523> what do you think it is?
23:20:44 <Vonlebio> Your screen name is half numbers; as such, you are statistically 7 years old.
23:20:50 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:21:07 <ais523> heh
23:21:36 <ais523> and even if I'm a bit young for a mathematician, it doesn't mean I can't prove things
23:21:42 <ais523> it was mostly a programming problem
23:21:56 <ais523> alise is quite a bit younger than me, for instance, but an excellent programmer
23:22:11 <Vonlebio> ais523, true, but his screen name contains no numbers
23:22:38 <ais523> really, though, if I used a different screenname, would it matter?
23:22:40 -!- ais523 has changed nick to scarf.
23:22:52 <Vonlebio> See? The proof is instantly reliable.
23:23:04 <cpressey> Little known fact: "scarf" is short for "scarface".
23:23:15 <scarf> hmm, not intentionally
23:23:23 <cpressey> Now, would YOU trust a proof coming from Organized Crime?
23:23:34 <Sgeo> cpressey, if it were correct, yes
23:23:39 <scarf> cpressey: you're jumping to conclusions here
23:23:57 <Vonlebio> Sgeo, you support criminal mathematics?
23:23:58 <scarf> most people with facial disfigurement are probably not actually criminals
23:24:01 <Sgeo> I'd trust a proof made by blind monkeys if it were correct
23:24:10 <Vonlebio> scarf, yeah, that's what they tell you.
23:24:17 <scarf> except in the case that there are so many laws that are hard to remember that most people have probably broken several by accident
23:24:54 <Vonlebio> scarf, all mathematics is wrong.
23:25:04 <Vonlebio> Quod erat demonstrandum.
23:25:05 <scarf> certainly possible
23:25:16 <scarf> but you can prove things given that it's correct
23:25:48 <Sgeo> And if it's incorrect, you can prove everything!
23:25:52 <Sgeo> </probably-mistaken>
23:26:39 <scarf> Sgeo: nah, the "a contradiction implies anything" proof would be similarly suspect
23:27:42 <scarf> this is much like the whole free-will vs. determinism thing; there is no plausible advantage you can gain from not believing you have free will, because if you do, you're correct and thus working from correct assumptions, and if you don't, it doesn't matter what you believe as it won't make any difference
23:27:57 <alise> <ais523> alise is quite a bit younger than me, for instance, but an excellent programmer
23:27:59 * alise adds to CV
23:28:25 <scarf> heh, I might /just/ be famous enough that that testimonial actually works
23:28:28 <scarf> although I doubt it somehow
23:28:40 <Vonlebio> alise, that's, like, two steps of testimony from Wolfram.
23:28:42 <alise> <cpressey> alise: WAITAMINIT
23:28:42 <alise> <cpressey> You were coding web apps in Ruby? ;; technically, they were quite interesting web apps, and i got fed up of rails and started creating crazy frameworks in a day or so, but yes
23:28:53 <alise> Vonlebio: Yeah -- two steps higher. Two BIG steps higher.
23:29:08 <cpressey> Cheers mate!
23:29:26 <Vonlebio> scarf, quick, endorse me, too.
23:29:39 <scarf> Vonlebio: testimony from Wolfram would be considered a negative by many people...
23:29:53 <Vonlebio> scarf, so the buffering makes it even better!
23:30:26 <Vonlebio> I can just say "I was endorsed by winner of mathematics prize Alex Smith".
23:30:29 <alise> cpressey: why? :P
23:30:58 <alise> Vonlebio: inventor of several popular specialist programming languages
23:31:11 <Vonlebio> alise, true enough.
23:31:11 <alise> (they're popular in the specialism (or, however you say it) they were invented in)
23:31:20 <scarf> hmm, what have I invented esolang-wise that's actually popular?
23:31:20 <Vonlebio> And nearest thing to a creator of Feather.
23:31:29 <cpressey> alise: Oh, I dunno. Something about recognizing and pointing out the steps being *higher* I guess.
23:31:31 <scarf> out of all my langs, Underload's the only one which caught on to any extent
23:31:47 <alise> scarf: well, they're popular in here
23:31:50 <scarf> and only among a few people
23:31:51 <alise> as a topic of discussion
23:31:52 <scarf> alise: really?
23:31:56 <Vonlebio> You know, after the Forth Bridge being painted, that's going to have to be my incompletable task.
23:32:02 <cpressey> scarf: Underload is awesomeness.
23:32:04 <alise> scarf: well ... occasionally
23:32:16 <alise> as popular as any single non-standard (in the sense of pop standard) can be
23:32:17 <scarf> can you name another esolang I've created, straight off? (Feather doesn't count)
23:32:35 <alise> I did just look up on your wiki page right now to see how popular they were, so I can't answer that now.
23:32:35 <cpressey> scarf: Er - the one with the arithmetical operators. I don't remember its name :/
23:32:44 <scarf> Forte?
23:32:48 <alise> I would have guessed Eodermdrome and Thutu, I think, given a bit of time.
23:32:55 <alise> Forte I didn't quite realise was yours.
23:33:11 <scarf> the main idea was blatantly stolen from CLC-INTERCAL
23:33:14 <scarf> who else's could it be?
23:33:21 <alise> nobody's
23:33:23 <cpressey> scarf: Formula
23:33:23 <alise> i just didn't make the link
23:33:28 <Vonlebio> C-INTERCAL?
23:33:29 <scarf> cpressey: ah
23:33:37 <scarf> Vonlebio: I didn't invent C-INTERCAL
23:33:52 <scarf> nor any other dialect of INTERCAL, fwiw
23:33:55 <scarf> implementing != inventing
23:34:09 <scarf> and I didn't even start the compiler
23:34:42 <Vonlebio> And the link to ESR rather spoils any CVing.
23:34:59 <cpressey> scarf: Also I remembered *of* Black and Eodermdrome, but didn't remember they were yours.
23:35:14 <scarf> people are remembering Black over BackFlip?
23:35:20 <scarf> that is interesting
23:35:23 <cpressey> (If "remember of" is acceptable English. I think it's allowy.)
23:35:30 <scarf> so do I
23:36:22 <alise> scarf: in news more sundry, botte appears to be materialising onto my hard disk
23:36:32 <scarf> botte the IRC bot?
23:36:41 <Vonlebio> One bot to rule them all.
23:36:52 <Vonlebio> alise, what languages will it support?
23:37:10 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:37:18 <alise> scarf: yep
23:37:23 <alise> logger too
23:37:29 <alise> (as well as storage of past logs, web interface to such)
23:37:32 <alise> Vonlebio: all of 'em.
23:37:35 <scarf> ##nomic could do with one
23:37:50 <alise> scarf: yeah, but i'm still sufficiently pissed off at wooble that i won't go into ##nomic.
23:38:01 <scarf> (are you still following Agora, btw? all I see is a few attempts to become active followed by a long space of nothing)
23:38:13 <alise> i keep meaning to, but the unit sort of gets in the way
23:38:23 <scarf> ah
23:38:29 <alise> even when it's only three days a week
23:38:44 <scarf> any idea how I can send plaintext emails to the lists, given that my laptop's power supply caught fire?
23:39:00 <Vonlebio> alise, MUMPS?
23:39:00 <alise> you use that outlook web monstrosity thing, right?
23:39:11 <alise> Vonlebio: well, no.
23:39:13 <scarf> not any more, I use Yahoo! Mail
23:39:21 <alise> scarf: ew
23:39:22 <scarf> because it's the one I distrust the least out of the three main ones
23:39:26 <scarf> but agreed, ew
23:39:42 <scarf> the outlook web access account is now redirected; I think theoretically, every time I send through it I'm faking headers
23:39:51 <scarf> but the SMTP server doesn't seem to mind
23:39:52 <alise> I sort of just let Google handle my emails because in an ideal world I'd run my own server, and in a less than ideal world I don't have much that is life-destroying in them.
23:40:09 <alise> Or, really, anything that is life-destroying.
23:40:16 <alise> scarf: ok, can you install software on your current machine?
23:40:22 <scarf> I don't have a current machine
23:40:24 <scarf> this is a borrowed one
23:40:31 <scarf> so "in theory but people would yell at me"
23:40:36 <alise> scarf: do you have the ability to SSH?
23:40:44 <scarf> I doubt it, this is Windows
23:40:52 <alise> scarf: well, you do have telnet
23:40:55 <scarf> hmm, evil idea: I think this has telnet
23:40:58 <alise> scarf: proposal:
23:41:00 <scarf> snap
23:41:03 <alise> scarf: telnet to some shell account server
23:41:07 <alise> (shouldn't be too hard to get an account)
23:41:13 <alise> use mail(1)
23:41:14 <alise> etc
23:41:15 <scarf> nah, I thought of a much simpler plan
23:41:17 <scarf> telnet to agoranomic.org
23:41:20 <scarf> type the email by hand
23:41:22 <alise> well, that works
23:41:26 <alise> but is, you know
23:41:27 <alise> an abomination
23:41:28 <scarf> I've done it before, in order to fake headers
23:41:55 <scarf> and really, it's the way email is MEANT to be sent
23:41:59 <alise> scarf: google.com/search?q=online+mail+sender
23:42:22 <scarf> if those let you fake from addresses, I'd expect them to be spam-blacklisted
23:42:33 <scarf> if they don't, then agoranomic.org will reject them for being unknown
23:43:18 <alise> true enough
23:43:31 <cpressey> alise: Is botte written in twisted?
23:43:33 <alise> scarf: how do you intend to send from yahoo mail when telnetting from some random ip, then?
23:43:38 <alise> cpressey: no; twisted gives me the heebie jeebies
23:43:44 <scarf> I was just planning to fake the from address
23:43:44 <cpressey> alise: I suspected as much
23:43:47 <alise> cpressey: probably i'll use asynchat etc. from standard python
23:43:53 <alise> cpressey: also, twisted Does Too Much For Me :-)
23:43:56 <scarf> agoranomic.org doesn't care, I know that from experiment
23:43:58 <cpressey> alise: we're beginning to use it here (at work...)
23:44:08 <scarf> presumably, if I put comex's address on there or something, everyone would yell at me
23:44:12 <alise> twisted is a good idea, just not properly done My Way
23:44:27 <alise> also, it's not pythonic
23:44:30 <cpressey> I was hoping it was more minimalistic than it apparently is
23:44:31 <alise> it uses zope.interface
23:44:36 <cpressey> >:(
23:44:37 <scarf> also, newlines
23:44:50 <alise> scarf: >
23:44:50 <scarf> true python is full of lambdas and colons
23:44:52 <alise> *?
23:44:56 <alise> heh
23:46:25 <alise> Actually I think instead of Bot subclass-of IRCBot (or whatever) I'll end up having
23:46:37 <alise> Bot has-a IRCClient
23:46:59 <scarf> Bot subclass-of IRCBot sounds backwards
23:47:06 <alise> scarf: i just don't want to call it botte
23:47:11 <alise> since classes will be doing "self.bot = one of these"
23:47:16 <alise> self.botte = ... just looks weird
23:47:22 <alise> scarf: fine, Bot subclass-of IRCClient
23:47:24 <alise> you get my point
23:47:26 <scarf> assuming you're using standard not-real-OO-the-other-one terminology
23:47:33 <scarf> (where real-OO = Smalltalk)
23:47:42 <alise> but I think having the IRCClient as a component of the bot is better
23:48:27 <alise> heteroillogical!
23:49:48 <cpressey> Well, the bot could naturally have many clients that connect to many things in the outside world. So, yeah.
23:49:59 <alise> well, that too.
23:50:13 <alise> the bot won't handle if you tell it it's "botte" but it has to connect as botte_.
23:50:19 <alise> my policy, register your damn bot nicks.
23:50:41 <scarf> what about ghosts?
23:50:47 <scarf> the bot should probably be able to handle two alts
23:50:56 <scarf> just to be able to /ns ghost itself
23:50:56 <alise> scarf: no (it could theoretically handle N alts)
23:51:02 <alise> i think i might add ghost support
23:51:05 <alise> inside IRCClient itself
23:51:15 <alise> but that'll just be part of the internal connection code
23:51:28 <alise> once it's actually responding to stuff, it will pretend it's called botte, even if it's not.
23:52:48 <alise> Now I just need #freenode to get off their asses and give botte a new password; one I actually know.
23:53:33 <alise> <niko> and why do you need a reset password for this account ?
23:54:01 <scarf> alise: did you set its email?
23:54:10 <alise> i hope so, let's put it that way.
23:54:12 <scarf> if you didn't, might be hard to prove you actually own the account
23:54:15 <alise> -NickServ- Registered : Dec 28 14:08:13 2009 (33 weeks, 4 days, 06:23:42 ago)
23:54:15 <alise> wait
23:54:18 <alise> i can just get it dropped, can't i?
23:54:22 <alise> even if it wasn't mine
23:54:22 <scarf> yep, that's probably easier
23:54:26 <alise> -NickServ- Last seen : Dec 30 04:17:27 2009 (33 weeks, 2 days, 16:14:28 ago)
23:56:09 <alise> scarf: hah, i think it's registered to @eso-std.org
23:56:16 <alise> they've just sent an email and i haven't got it
23:56:17 <scarf> haha
23:56:18 <alise> now i've asked for dropping
23:56:22 <alise> my case must look real good right now
23:56:44 <cpressey> alise: :)
23:56:52 <alise> <niko> alise: all i can say, you don't own the domain
23:57:40 <cpressey> Er, well no one does? whois eso-std.org -> NOT FOUND
23:57:53 <alise> Exactly.
23:59:06 -!- alise has changed nick to botte.
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