←2010-08-26 2010-08-27 2010-08-28→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:57:27 <zzo38> Three things you should try to guess: How many pages does CZZT currently have? How many pages will it have when it is complete? Also guess how large the Win32 executable file will be when it is finished?
00:58:13 <oerjan> 42, 99999, and 35MB
00:59:16 <oerjan> (hey you didn't say is should make an _educated_ guess)
00:59:18 <oerjan> *i
00:59:37 <pikhq> 0, G*i, 1 millibyte.
00:59:52 <oerjan> G*i?
01:00:05 <pikhq> Graham's number * sqrt(-1).
01:00:16 <oerjan> that's not a cardinal number, pikhq
01:00:23 <zzo38> Try to make an educated guess, next time. I do not know the answer to second and third question, although the first actual answer is more than 42, and my guess for the second is less than 99999
01:00:29 <pikhq> He never asked for a cardinal.
01:00:35 <pikhq> He asked for a number.
01:00:47 <oerjan> he said "how many"
01:00:57 <pikhq> Curses, he did ask for a cardinal.
01:01:04 <pikhq> Okay, fine. The real component of G*i.
01:01:06 <pikhq> :P
01:01:22 <zzo38> The real component of G*i is 0 isn't it?
01:01:27 <pikhq> Yes, yes it is.
01:01:27 <Sgeo_> zzo38, I can't make an educated guess
01:01:27 <oerjan> that's not very ... right
01:01:42 <Sgeo_> I can say that it will probably have more than 0 pages, and less thanb.. oh, already done
01:02:27 <zzo38> The problem is the summary of kinds now spans 2 pages, and I want to get it all on 1 page. Does anyone in here know some things about TeX that I can make it on 1 page?
01:03:37 <zzo38> I will tell you the current project size: 67 pages, and 53610 bytes of source codes (all *.w and *.wi files)
01:04:21 <zzo38> And what kind of computer can measure in 1 millibyte? Can we invent a esolang like that?
01:04:34 <ais523> zzo38: have you seen TURKEY BOMB?
01:04:44 <ais523> it doesn't use millibytes, but it does use fractions of a bit
01:04:57 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I have seen.
01:05:30 <pikhq> I dunno, but having sub-bit addressing would be awesome.
01:05:36 <pikhq> If bizarre.
01:06:55 <zzo38> Yes. If someone can figure it out.
01:07:05 <oerjan> È subito informazione
01:08:38 <zzo38> Now guess how many staplers I have in my desk drawer.
01:09:10 <oerjan> 36
01:09:30 <zzo38> No
01:09:50 <ais523> 1
01:09:53 <zzo38> Yes
01:09:58 <ais523> do I win a prize?
01:10:06 <oerjan> 179043... darn
01:10:14 <zzo38> No, I don't have any prize to give, sorry
01:10:30 <oerjan> you could give him the stapler
01:10:38 <ais523> guess how many staplers are in the drawer in the table in front of me
01:11:06 <zzo38> How can I do if I don't have address? Maybe if I had more than 1 I would send one to you
01:11:13 <oerjan> oh wait you said "staplers", not "staples"
01:11:24 <zzo38> ais523: I guess, you have no staplers, but you do have a staple remover
01:11:40 <zzo38> (Because you already removed the stapler from the drawer)
01:12:08 <ais523> zzo38: I'm not sure if you're right or not
01:12:13 <ais523> this table doesn't actually have a drawer
01:12:24 <ais523> thus evaluating the number of staplers in it is sort-of difficult
01:12:25 <zzo38> ais523: That was my second guess.
01:12:49 * oerjan swats ais523 ------###
01:13:03 <ais523> ouch!
01:13:13 <ais523> hmm, where's alise?
01:13:29 <oerjan> haven't seen him today
01:15:01 <zzo38> Now guess, how many ranks my D&D character has in Perform(Harp) skill, and also how many claws my D&D character has at each hand/feet, and in total
01:15:13 <zzo38> And also guess the exact number of XP of my D&D character
01:15:24 <ais523> you play a harp... with claws?
01:15:29 <zzo38> And also of my brother's character
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01:16:08 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, it is slightly difficult but if you put harp on table it can be done more effectively, especially if you have enough ranks in that skill, and if you use both hands.
01:16:31 <zzo38> That means, some things ordinary people require 1 hand, some things might need 2 hands instead, but it can still be done
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01:17:40 <zzo38> (I have proven this by doing various things like this with my own hand but not using all my fingers, to see how many are minimum require for certain things)
01:19:31 <zzo38> After you attempt to answer these questions, look at this http://sprunge.us/hMBS tell me if you know about TeX how to fit the summary of kinds table all on one page?
01:19:42 <zzo38> (Possibly with some on the right?)
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02:26:44 <myndzi> hm, maybe someone here would be able to answer this for me
02:27:05 <myndzi> i was reading about bz2, and i'm a little puzzled as to the point of the runa/runb thing in the run length encoding
02:27:23 <myndzi> specifically, i'm unsure what would make it more effective than some simpler method of encoding the length
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02:37:05 <pikhq> *groan*
02:37:28 <pikhq> So, that h.264 royalty-free license for certain works is now permanent.
02:37:33 <pikhq> Fuck. We're stuck.
02:37:42 <ais523> myndzi: the encoding is actually just binary
02:37:53 <ais523> modified such that redundant entries like 00001 are impossible
03:16:19 <myndzi> runb place values are multiplied by 2, though
03:16:35 <myndzi> that's the part i don't really understand
03:16:50 <myndzi> i guess it gives you a chance to save a bit or something, but i don't see why it is worth it
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06:56:24 <Sgeo> If there was a solution to the halting problem, what mathematical questions would remain unsolved?
06:56:53 <Sgeo> The Riemann Hypothesis might, if any counterexamples were irrational numbers
06:57:23 <Sgeo> Although I think a result that "Either the Riemann Hypothesis is true, or all counterexamples are irrational" is still interesting somehow
06:57:30 <Sgeo> What else?
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08:29:19 <olsner> if the halting problem can be solved, doesn't that imply that the goedel stuff would have been disproven as well?
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09:05:46 <Sgeo> Is there any countable infinite named subset of the reals that contains all rational numbers and some irrational numbers?
09:08:14 <fizzie> Algebraic numbers?
09:10:42 <fizzie> And the computable numbers, I guess.
09:12:46 <Sgeo> What happens when we say that no computable number falsifies the Riemann hypothesis
09:12:51 <Sgeo> Is that interesting, or boring?
09:14:35 <Sgeo> It's not possible for a non-definable number to be a counterexample to anything, is it?
09:15:55 * Sgeo reads the wikipedia article and mehs
09:18:36 <coppro> Sgeo: yes, there is
09:18:47 <coppro> the set of all rationals and all rational multiples of pi
09:19:47 <coppro> (or the other ones suggested, but I like my answer since it's easier to count)
09:20:19 <fizzie> It's not "named" in the sense of having a well-known name, is it?
09:20:43 <fizzie> Not that a "named set" is a very well-defined thing.
09:20:56 <Sgeo> I should sleep
09:20:59 <fizzie> (You can always give it a name, after all.)
09:22:10 <coppro> I call it the pitional numbers
09:22:51 <fizzie> The Coppros, often denoted by ℂ℘.
09:23:18 <fizzie> "Pitiful numbers" is a good candidate too.
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12:41:35 <oerjan> 22:56:24 <Sgeo> If there was a solution to the halting problem, what mathematical questions would remain unsolved?
12:41:38 <oerjan> 22:56:53 <Sgeo> The Riemann Hypothesis might, if any counterexamples were irrational numbers
12:42:06 <oerjan> the riemann hypothesis is equivalent to a statement about the distribution of prime numbers
12:42:59 <oerjan> so if you could solve halting problems in a recursive manner, the riemann hypothesis would be solved
12:43:38 <oerjan> hm actually you may not even need the recursion
12:46:17 <oerjan> http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2009/05/27/arithmetic-hierarchy-and-pnp/ is where i saw the equivalent statement discussed
12:48:02 <oerjan> (and essentially it's an equivalent question, too, because the arithmetic hierarchy can be formulated using halting problems)
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12:50:05 <cheater> hiii
12:50:20 <cheater> who wants to see some ugly code
12:50:28 <cheater> http://pastebin.com/ynf5pZaj
12:50:59 <oerjan> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetical_hierarchy#Relation_to_Turing_machines
12:51:54 <cheater> oerjan: how do you like my seds
12:52:30 * oerjan runs away screaming
12:53:06 * cheater sits down and smokes a pipe.
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12:58:15 <Vorpal> cheater, how do you smoke a | ?
12:58:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I can only conclude that you are playing dumb.
12:58:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I was making a pun
12:58:54 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater, that's some ugly code/
12:59:09 * Phantom_Hoover smokes a bracket
12:59:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, considering the context of shell script and "* cheater sits down and smokes a pipe." I felt it wasn't that far-fetched
12:59:23 <Vorpal> to joke about |
13:09:20 <oerjan> you just be _glad_ a certain person isn't here to snark about it
13:10:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, you makes puns like that too
13:10:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yeah, but you EXPECT oerjan to start punning.
13:11:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and why am I not allowed to do it?
13:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Because you're not oerjan!
13:12:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why does not being oerjan imply that you aren't allowed to make puns?
13:12:26 <oerjan> well of course you're allowed. color blind people are allowed to paint, too </ducks>
13:12:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I wasn't aware that ducks were valid HTML.
13:13:07 <cheater> what person
13:14:03 <oerjan> _someone_ who tends to pick on everything Vorpal does
13:14:14 <cheater> who
13:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the set of people allowed to make puns that bad is {oerjan, DMM}.
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13:16:49 <Phantom_Hoover> The 314th maths nerd!
13:18:13 <fizzie> If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's valid HTML.
13:18:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Ducks must be included in every standard.
13:19:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they're probably already in the CL standard.
13:20:30 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, do you still want to kill me?
13:20:30 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends!
13:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style
13:20:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
13:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style europarl
13:20:54 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
13:21:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, how about now?
13:21:11 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mr president, would you be prepared, and that opinion is in line with the treaty. it was indeed a pleasure for me, as a family, if there is no proof of their maturity, their composure and their ability to create a european stock exchange which will generate new jobs.
13:22:50 <cheater> fungot: lolcats
13:22:51 <fungot> cheater: mr president, the rapporteur and the committee on budgetary control, thanks in particular to welcome and briefly debate last september. the officials of the european union's number one priority and also the honourable member of your group and party. at most, mr president-in-office of the council, i am convinced that cohesion is not just excessive but is in reality a plan for the court of first instance.
13:22:59 <cheater> lol
13:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style
13:23:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
13:23:41 <cheater> ^style c64
13:23:42 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
13:23:50 <cheater> fungot: cake
13:23:50 <fungot> cheater: run ( starts at line-number 500) will disable the switching of character memory can be achieved by using this line should only be compared ( or more programs in memory until you had in mind that the interrupt register.
13:23:59 <fizzie> That's a bit boring style, the formatting is badly.
13:24:04 <cheater> nah
13:24:13 <cheater> it's gonna be help for helping newbies with code
13:24:26 <cheater> fungot: !recursion
13:24:26 <fungot> cheater: p=192 sets the alarm access bit. the duration above. then jsr chrgot. another color control can set all of the keyboard
13:24:41 <fizzie> fungot: So how about them SID registers, are they read-write or write-only?
13:24:41 <fungot> fizzie: 1) set the corresponding interrupt will occur. the high-pass output. the string: filename) note space here. go back to ascii text of the screen background.
13:24:46 <cheater> fungot: kernel programming
13:24:46 <fungot> cheater: 3. this is used to count much longer intervals. cia 1 56320-56335 in-between commands ( like in multi-color character mode, pairs of pixels instead of using one of the statement cr=peek(55296)and15. this allows a user written machine language
13:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me or is Comments on a Postcard completely broken?
13:25:56 <fizzie> It seems brokened here too.
13:26:46 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
13:26:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, why?
13:27:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it *meant* to be broken?
13:27:10 <oerjan> yep
13:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ...But they referred to it in today's SRoMG, with every indication that there was something there...
13:27:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, SRoMG?
13:28:12 <oerjan> oh that. i don't think that was the same postcard :D
13:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, read Mezzacotta's stuff.
13:28:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh, clever.
13:28:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I just asked what it stands for
13:28:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The annotations are the whole thing.
13:29:02 <oerjan> oh wait it was
13:30:19 <oerjan> square root of minus garfield
13:30:40 <Vorpal> oh
13:30:48 * oerjan notes the cat is back in iwc
13:31:05 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah noticed it too
13:31:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, and it has been pretty obvious for some time that we have been heading for a new paradox.
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13:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's been explicit for ages...
13:35:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Ever since Fireballs got assigned, at least.
13:35:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes that is what I said, "some time" is pretty vague and intentionally so
13:36:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently the San Dimas time is running strangely.
13:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Given that Adam and Jamie blew up the time stream ages ago.
13:37:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, when time travel is involved, does your last line really make any sense?
13:37:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, hence "San Dimas".
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13:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Per TV Tropes.
13:37:54 <Vorpal> San Dimas? *googles*
13:38:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it seems to be a town in US
13:38:53 <Vorpal> now I'm all confused
13:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, check the TV Tropes entry for "San Dimas Time".
13:39:13 <oerjan> Vorpal: it's a tvtrope, he said. those are rather creatively named.
13:39:28 <Vorpal> okay, I learnt how to avoid clicking links so...
13:39:48 <oerjan> famous last words
13:40:46 <Vorpal> right, read it
13:40:50 <Vorpal> well okay
13:41:04 * Phantom_Hoover performs a tabectomy.
13:41:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that thing always annoyed me in movies
13:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, meh. I get around it by assuming a second time dimension.
13:41:45 <Vorpal> san dimas time that is
13:41:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm that works I guess
13:42:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what if you somehow manages to travel in that as well?
13:42:25 <Vorpal> that would make one confusing movie
13:42:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I've thought about that, but I'm eating a cake so can't type too quickly.
13:43:04 <Vorpal> of course you could just add a third one
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13:43:39 <Vorpal> but at some point that just gets too silly
13:45:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence why I assume that the second time dimension is impossible to travel in.
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13:47:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Or that, when travelled in, has the properties typically associated with more "realistic" time travel.
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13:52:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Would you move in the second time dimension when you are not traveling in the first?
13:53:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't particularly think it matters.
13:53:53 <Vorpal> hm
13:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Since the only meaningful change in the system comes about when time travel is taking place.
13:56:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this also solves the grand father paradox I think
13:57:19 <Vorpal> since it would be done at a different place in the second timeline
13:57:24 <Vorpal> err time dimension
13:59:17 <Vorpal> also solves the similar "had no reason to go back once the change is made"-paradox
14:00:40 <Vorpal> though you could make both still apply by making it so that time travellers are "rebased" (in the DVCS sense) to the current time line when traveling. Though, not sure if it solves the primary problem any longer then
14:29:22 <fizzie> Heh, "concolic"; what an awesome new word-coinage. (It's from "concrete" and "symbolic", in the context of automated exhaustive testing; for some reason there was a random theory guy included in the summer student seminar session which otherwise was mostly about speech stuff.)
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14:37:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, if I was oerjan I would make a pun about symbolic cement here.
14:42:38 <fizzie> Unfortunately, you are not, and are therefore contractually prohibited from making such a pun.
14:42:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I didn't sign anything though
14:43:07 <fizzie> Nowadays you can get into a contract simply by sneezing in the wrong place.
14:44:05 <Vorpal> I get a nagging feeling that was a reference to something that I don't quite remember
14:46:06 <fizzie> The sneezing part wasn't a specific reference to anything, but there has certainly been some nonsense about a contract being established in ridiculous ways. Can't remember a specific example offhand.
14:46:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm... hhgtg?
14:46:41 <Vorpal> well one of the follow up books rather
14:46:44 <Vorpal> not sure which
14:47:09 <Vorpal> watching movie about kriket (sp?)
14:48:37 <fizzie> There's the Jatravartids of Viltvodle VI, who believe the Universe was sneezed out of the nose of the Great Green Arkleseizure, and who fear the Coming of the Great White Handkerchief.
14:48:44 <fizzie> That's about the only sneezing-related thing I recall.
14:50:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, no I meant the contract part
14:51:01 <fizzie> Oh. Hmm.
14:51:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I definitely think there is an example of that in HHGTG
14:51:19 <fizzie> I was thinking of real-life things there, but I wouldn't rule out related bits in the Book.
14:52:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, out of curiosity, what was the nationality of "Jatravartid of Viltvodle VI"
14:52:40 <Vorpal> err s/d /ds /
14:53:28 <fizzie> What do you mean, nationality? They're "the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI", no more is told to us.
14:53:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure that is "real-life"+
14:53:54 <Vorpal> s/+/?/
14:54:25 <fizzie> Gnaah, no, I mean I was thinking of real-life things w.r.t. the contract thing.
14:54:29 <Vorpal> ah
14:54:49 <fizzie> Something EULA- or maybe website-terms-of-service-related, I think.
14:54:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't remember "Jatravartids of Viltvodle VI" from hhgtg though the name *sounds* like it could be from there
14:55:14 <fizzie> They're not very prominently featured.
14:55:22 <Vorpal> right
14:55:47 <fizzie> Only in two paragraphs of the introduction of The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
14:56:01 <Vorpal> mhm
14:56:29 <fizzie> "The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. Many races believe that it was created by some sort of God, though the Jatravartid --"
14:57:11 <fizzie> Then it moves on from the Great Green Arkleseizure theory to other attempts of finding the Answer (and the Question).
14:58:11 <fizzie> I used "Arkleseizure" as the Bluetooth name of the N-Gage.
15:04:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
15:06:32 <fizzie> It was back when I had a Guide-inspired naming scheme overall.
15:10:05 <Vorpal> ah
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15:25:09 <cheater> mmm
15:25:18 <cheater> nothing like a cold drink
15:25:34 <cheater> i would just like to inform you that there is so much ice in my glass that it sticks like 2 cm out
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15:31:21 <cheater> fizzie: in greece you can become legally married by going around a table once
15:31:53 <Slereah> What if there's a goat on said table?
15:38:22 <cheater> you go around the table with the woman
15:38:27 <cheater> so you'd have to lead a goat around a table
15:38:35 <cheater> i'm afraid goats are more stubborn than to allow that
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18:45:22 <Sgeo> Huh
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19:08:45 <cheater99> pawns.
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20:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Mr Smith.
20:12:57 <ais523> hi
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21:07:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone have a space sim to recommend?
21:08:31 <cpressey> Operation Space Station
21:08:42 <cpressey> though I've never actually played it
21:09:15 <Phantom_Hoover> There's no such THING
21:09:26 <fizzie> Good old (emphasis on old now) Microsoft Space Simulator?-)
21:09:33 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: That's possible
21:09:33 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, incidentally, I've come to a conclusion regarding the monad design pattern.
21:10:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It's effectively the same as assigning a design pattern to if constructs.
21:12:05 <fizzie> There's also that freeware thing, what'sitcalled, Orbiter? Don't know anything 'bout it.
21:12:14 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Interesting. I would say such design patterns do exist, they're just very simple and might be better called "implementation patterns". I came to a, well, different thought. It seems to me that there ought to be any number of very bizarre monads one could devise.
21:12:21 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC it's Windows-only.
21:13:02 <fizzie> It might well be. Well, Space Simulator will run in DOS too.
21:17:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, yes, there are.
21:18:12 <Phantom_Hoover> That's why it's absurd to confine them to a single design pattern.
21:18:45 <cpressey> That's also why we need form an Esoteric Task Force for Stupid Monad Tricks.
21:19:30 <ais523> hmm, yes
21:19:36 <ais523> I can't think of any really silly monads, though
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21:19:52 <ais523> well, Feather probably forms a monad, but only because everything like that does
21:19:53 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, Identity!
21:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> EXPLAIN FEATHER ALREADY
21:20:15 <ais523> ENOTIMPLEMENTED
21:20:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's difficult...
21:20:35 <ais523> some day I may understand it myself
21:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> The general concept?
21:20:39 <ais523> and then I'll be able to explain it
21:20:51 <ais523> general concept is that of retroactive changes as the main form of doing anything
21:21:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Right, so assigning a variable retroactively changes it etc.?
21:21:26 <ais523> well, "assign" isn't the right word, really
21:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The equivalent?
21:23:30 <ais523> the basic operation is retroactively-become, but it tends to lead to infinite loops unless guarded very carefully
21:25:32 <Phantom_Hoover> How?
21:27:00 <ais523> because a retroactive change rewinds time to when the thing happened, then changes the state to make the change
21:27:02 <ais523> and then runs from there
21:27:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
21:27:16 <ais523> so you have to retroactively change things such that the change never happens, in order to avoid a loop
21:27:21 <ais523> sort-of the opposite of how time travel normally works
21:27:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:27:50 <cpressey> I would imagine, if the contents of the variable X ever determines whether "X retroactively-becomes ..." is executed, a loop occurs, or rather, you have to resolve some kind of nasty fixed point thing.
21:28:33 <cpressey> Nasty because, uh, the condition I stated is generally undecidable.
21:28:44 <ais523> cpressey: nah, if there's any issue at all, you just get an infinite loop
21:29:04 <ais523> if you set a variable to its current value with primitives, you /always/ get an infinite loop
21:29:09 <Phantom_Hoover> You would presumably need to code if (¬changed) retbecom
21:29:12 <ais523> yep
21:29:23 <ais523> the issue is then to determine the value of changed
21:29:35 <ais523> this is why things are done in a vaguely OO style
21:29:43 <ais523> "sane" retroactive changes are the addition of a method
21:29:52 <ais523> and then you can check to see if the method exists or not first
21:29:57 <cpressey> ais523: Perhaps I am jumping ahead to trying to statically analyze this beast. Please excuse me.
21:30:15 <ais523> cpressey: if you figure out how Feather works, please let me know
21:30:34 <ais523> atm I'm trying to get started
21:30:39 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, what bit are you stuck at?
21:30:47 <ais523> you see, some of the other things that can retroactively change are the rules of the language itself
21:31:07 <ais523> there's no conceputal problem here, but I'm having problems actually implementing it
21:31:16 <ais523> because everything is defined in terms of everything else
21:31:41 <ais523> it's a similar task to trying to write a Smalltalk VM in something other than Smalltalk
21:31:49 <ais523> which must have been accomplished once, I suppose
21:31:56 <ais523> but which is kind-of difficult
21:31:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Redefining the language seems... Lispy.
21:32:33 <ais523> hmm... Feather could be a great tool to wave at Lisp advocates who claim every other lang's just a special case of theirs
21:32:35 <ais523> if it actually works
21:32:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Heh.
21:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Would keeping tonnes of continuations work?
21:34:20 <ais523> it's how I plan to implement it, yes
21:34:23 <ais523> it seems the obvious way
21:35:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So CPS the code?
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21:36:32 <ais523> I was planning to use a higher-level lang that does CPS for me
21:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be possible to statically analyse the source to work out exactly which continuations you need?
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21:37:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Rather than keeping loads and loads of them.
21:37:16 <ais523> hahahahahahahahahaha
21:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not *that* absurd!
21:37:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Provided you only allow retbecomes to predefined points.
21:38:02 <ais523> statically analysing Feather is like trying to statically analyse something like SMITH
21:38:38 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, s/statically analyse/remember where the damn retbecomes pointed/
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21:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, OK, so how is your implementation stuff at the moment?
21:47:46 <ais523> abandoned as usual
21:47:49 <ais523> I've failed twice so far
21:47:51 <ais523> I may try again some time
21:48:17 <Phantom_Hoover> What ideas do you have, then?
21:49:25 <ais523> ugh, it's hard to explain
21:49:45 <Phantom_Hoover> For implementation?
21:51:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Offhand, I would go for the interpreter calling a continuation with a function that transforms the environment appropriately.
21:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> But you've probably exploded your brain more than me over thiss.
21:56:21 <ais523> the difficulty is that the interpreter must be written in Feather, in case you retroactively modify the interpreter that the interpreter was written in to make it dump source code
21:56:40 <ais523> strangely, the turtles-all-the-way-down regress this apparently causes is not the hardest-to-resolve part of things
21:57:11 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
21:58:02 <Phantom_Hoover> ...What is?
21:58:15 -!- iGO has joined.
21:58:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i do not go
21:58:44 <Sgeo> Wait, Feather is implementable?
21:58:51 <Sgeo> What happens when I retroactively print something?
21:58:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, that was always the point.
21:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, magic or curses.
21:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Pick one.
22:02:39 <ais523> Sgeo: I/O is another issue
22:02:52 <ais523> at any point in the execution, though, you can determine what the program has outputted so far
22:03:00 <ais523> so I suppose it's just a case of erasing output from the screen when you backtrack
22:03:55 <Sgeo> Will it be possible to build more structured time control structures than whatever the primitive is? Similar to building structured flow control from gotos or continuations?
22:04:09 <Sgeo> What high-level structures would make sense?
22:04:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, these things are all brainsploding territory.
22:04:42 <ais523> there certainly are saner primitives possible
22:04:52 <ais523> I mean, nonprimitives
22:05:06 <cpressey> ais523: The way you've descibed it, Feather sounds trivially implementable
22:05:18 <ais523> for instance, you could retroactively change a value into a function that acts exactly like that value until the point of the retroactive assignment, and then starts acting like a different value
22:05:22 <ais523> that's close to traditional assignment
22:05:23 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, the self-modification of the interpreter, though.
22:05:34 <ais523> cpressey: the issue is the object-oriented structure
22:05:57 <Sgeo> Is the implementation coming before or after the spec?
22:06:11 <ais523> even something really simple like comparing two atoms for equality (where "atom" = "object whose only purpose is to be compared to other atoms for equality") leads to an infinite regress with obvious implementations
22:06:21 <ais523> as they send each other messages which are other atoms
22:06:27 <ais523> Sgeo: being codeveloped
22:06:39 <cpressey> OK, I was behind. Just got back to my desk.
22:06:47 <cpressey> Some subset of Feather is trivially implementable.
22:06:51 <cpressey> Duh.
22:06:52 <ais523> well, yes
22:06:57 <ais523> given that lambda calculus is a subset of Feather
22:07:05 <ais523> (easy way to make it TC, among other things)
22:07:12 <cpressey> Well, some subset with retroactive something.
22:07:22 <cpressey> Every time you change something, restart the program, with that change.
22:07:27 <ais523> yep
22:07:54 <ais523> I foresee two major problems; getting started (the one I'm getting hung up on), and writing a standard library that's actually useful
22:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, what's the current worst thing?
22:08:52 <ais523> comparing two atoms
22:09:08 <ais523> I think I can work around it by having every object have a method that states whether it's a particular atom or not
22:09:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Blagh, OO.
22:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Why'd you need to spoil it like that?
22:09:52 <ais523> that is, one particular special atom that's treated differently in order to break the infinite dependency loop
22:10:27 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: what do you have against OO?
22:10:31 <ais523> besides, we need more OO esolangs
22:10:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, so, you'd rather I not like Smalltalk?
22:10:48 <ais523> and that sort of structure is needed in Feather to not degenerate
22:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, no, it just seems... messy.
22:10:58 <ais523> Sgeo: Smalltalk is the main inspiration for Feather, actually
22:11:05 <Sgeo> ...
22:11:06 <Sgeo> <3
22:11:16 <ais523> I was thinking about "why do we need objects separate from classes"
22:12:06 <ais523> and the reason is because of inheritance; you want to modify methods in a class and all its subclasses, but objects shouldn't work like that
22:12:23 <ais523> and then I noticed that the problem doesn't exist if you modify a prototype object before any subclassing or object creation is used
22:12:26 <ais523> and the idea snowballed from there
22:16:41 <Vorpal> hm local root exploit on <2.6.36-rc1
22:16:54 <Vorpal> CVE not yet published but googling it turns up details
22:17:02 <Vorpal> the pre-reserved number that is
22:17:29 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:17:31 <cpressey> ais523: I'm not sure I see that problem. "You want to modify methods"?
22:17:49 <ais523> cpressey: it isn't quite that simple
22:17:57 <cpressey> Delegation-based OO doesn't seem to have a problem with that... assuming it's what I think it is, which I guess it isn't
22:17:59 <Vorpal> lucid seems vurnable.
22:18:01 <ais523> I can't remember the details any more
22:18:11 <ais523> cpressey: delegation is an alternative solution to the same problem
22:18:21 <cpressey> ais523: ah, that might shed light on it
22:18:21 <ais523> Vorpal: hmm, perhaps
22:18:40 <Vorpal> ais523, not going to test it though, the effects seems pretty severe if it only works partly (SLUB state completely fucked up)
22:18:41 <ais523> local root exploits tend to be irrelevant on your own personal computer, though
22:20:03 <Sgeo> They are relevant for Normish though, I think
22:20:12 <ais523> es
22:20:14 <ais523> es
22:20:16 <ais523> *yes
22:20:18 <Vorpal> ais523, well a patch is released, I seem to have a patched version according to numbers
22:20:28 -!- tombom_ has joined.
22:20:30 <Vorpal> got that upgrade yesterday iirc
22:20:40 <ais523> and occasionally when you use user accounts for sandboxing
22:20:47 <Vorpal> ais523, so for details google for CVE-2010-2959
22:20:56 <ais523> what makes you assume I want details?
22:21:09 <Vorpal> ais523, why wouldn't you
22:21:24 <ais523> because it's not a subject I particularly care about?
22:21:44 <ais523> local root exploits are vaguely interesting, but I'm not in the sort of sysadmin where it would be important to care
22:21:53 <ais523> *sort of sysadmin position
22:22:16 <ais523> and the details of a /specific/ local root exploit are merely of academic interest, unless you plan to patch or exploit it
22:24:34 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:24:41 <ais523> does anyone here know how to do a while loop in TCL?
22:24:46 -!- iGO has quit.
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22:25:16 <Vorpal> ais523, you could implement it with a for loop (not a foreach loop though)
22:25:22 <Vorpal> if that helps
22:25:30 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't know how to do those either
22:25:34 <ais523> I don't know TCL syntax
22:25:41 <Sgeo> TCL isn't an esolang?
22:25:41 <ais523> I'm asking in case there's someone here who does
22:25:43 <ais523> no
22:25:45 <Vorpal> ais523, ah maybe learnt that before starting coding in tcl?
22:25:48 <ais523> it used to be very popular
22:25:51 <Vorpal> ais523, pikhq is a tcl fan iirc
22:26:04 <ais523> well, I want to do something in TCL, and don't know hoe
22:26:06 <ais523> *how
22:26:14 <Vorpal> ais523, try to catch him then
22:26:17 <Vorpal> I don't know tcl
22:26:17 <ais523> thus, I'm asking on the basis that quite possibly there's someone here who /does/ know how
22:26:35 <Vorpal> I was just commenting that in general while loop can be implemented in terms of a for loop
22:26:50 <ais523> where /is/ alise?
22:27:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Have the unit finally taken their revenge?
22:27:20 <pikhq> ais523: Yo.
22:27:27 <pikhq> I'm reasonably proficient in Tcl.
22:27:35 <ais523> what's the easiest way to write an infinite loop?
22:27:43 <pikhq> while 1 { ... }
22:27:48 <ais523> ah, thanks
22:27:51 <ais523> I'll try that
22:28:14 <pikhq> BTW, Tcl's syntax & semantics are shockingly simple.
22:28:17 <pikhq> man n Tcl
22:28:20 <pikhq> There. Whole thing.
22:28:35 <ais523> I don't actually have TCL installed
22:28:40 <ais523> it's sort-of amazing that programs run at all, given that
22:29:08 <pikhq> http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TclCmd/Tcl.htm
22:29:38 <ais523> thanks
22:30:33 <ais523> hmm, it seems to use the Underload approach to blocks
22:31:41 <cpressey> ais523: By talking about Feather and infinite loops in Tcl, you seem to have given me an idea for yet another stupid language.
22:31:49 <ais523> go for it
22:32:02 <ais523> btw, I apologise for taking several minutes to recall the name of SMETANA recently
22:32:44 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering if relative Smetana would be TC
22:32:53 <ais523> "Swap the step after this one with the step 5 steps before this one."
22:32:59 <ais523> "Go to the step 8 steps after this one."
22:33:00 * Phantom_Hoover feels like learning group theory
22:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, comment.
22:36:02 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: 0):
22:36:09 <cpressey> ais523: Well. lament proved it is FSA-complete, meaning that inifnite SMETANA programs, with a suitable inital pattern, should be CA-complete. I think.
22:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style
22:36:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:36:11 <ais523> what a strange smiley
22:36:32 <ais523> cpressey: yes, and I know what a bad definitional situation that is from personal experience
22:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sad man with a double chin!
22:36:56 <cpressey> ais523: Yes and you have my condolences.
22:37:17 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, explain.
22:37:21 <Sgeo> Wait, FSA-complete isn't a fungot invention?
22:37:22 <fungot> Sgeo: the interrupt driven keyboard-scanning routine jumps through a modem and a third, in order ( see the effect of having their normal effect on it. the
22:37:24 * Sgeo blinks
22:37:28 <ais523> aargh, I don't want to go through this again
22:37:43 <ais523> but basically, "turing-complete" for infinite starting conditions is badly designed
22:37:53 <ais523> and I ended up in a heated email debate about the definition with Vaughan Pratt ages ago
22:38:16 <ais523> it ended abruptly when the list moderator went on holiday, and never restarted
22:38:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, do go on.
22:38:35 <ais523> one of the best-timed holidays ever
22:38:40 <ais523> there isn't really more to say
22:40:06 * Sgeo awkwardly holds his computer
22:41:39 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldnt attemt to leave eardrops in and use the computer at the same time
22:45:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, huh?
22:45:49 <Sgeo> I have to leave my head tilted for s few min
22:46:30 <ais523> rotate your screen by 30 degrees
22:46:59 <Sgeo> I had the whole computer rotated 90
22:47:05 <Sgeo> But I'm done now, so
22:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, learn to read sideways?
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22:52:42 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, am I connected?
22:52:42 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: ciout 60893, 65448 ( decimal). the following
22:52:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Excellent.
22:52:52 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style
22:52:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:52:59 <Phantom_Hoover> ^style ff7
22:52:59 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
22:53:14 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, is your father a submariner?
22:53:14 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: humans only look at the inn? and what she meant. i wouldn't know because i don't know either, man.
23:01:08 -!- Killerkid has joined.
23:04:31 -!- Gregor has joined.
23:04:35 <Gregor> Unexpected move = AWESOME FUN TIMES
23:04:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:04:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, explain!
23:05:39 <Gregor> I came home to find my electricity had shorted and they needed to tear apart my walls to find out why.
23:05:42 <Gregor> So I said "wtf"
23:05:56 <Gregor> And they said "Uhhh, how about we put you in this much bigger apartment for the same price?"
23:06:00 <Gregor> And I said "... oh fine."
23:06:39 <cpressey> AWESOME
23:06:43 * ais523 continues to wonder wtf expect programs (written in TCL) run, given that TCL isn't installed
23:07:01 <ais523> Gregor: I take it you rent your apartment?
23:07:11 <Gregor> If I didn't, it wouldn't be an apartment.
23:08:34 <Gregor> Well, arguably. Is condominium a subclass of apartment, or distinct?
23:09:36 <Sgeo> My dad owns an apartment...
23:11:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:12:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, what would it be?
23:12:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: did you see my comment about the riemann hypothesis in the logs?
23:12:35 <Sgeo> oerjan, no
23:12:36 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Presumably a condo.
23:12:47 <Phantom_Hoover> So a TwoDucks interpreter can solve the Reimann Hypothesis?
23:13:06 <Sgeo> Ok, see it now
23:13:16 <oerjan> basically there is a known statement about natural number sums which it is equivalent too, and which can be rephrased as a halting problem
23:13:29 <oerjan> (it's in that lipton blog article)
23:13:55 <oerjan> (not the halting problem rephrasing, but that's pretty obvious)
23:14:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: presumably? at least banana scheme and brainhype can, using only one level up
23:15:36 <oerjan> (their computation models are pretty much equivalent to the arithmetic hierarchy, iiuc)
23:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, per my TwoDucks Turing oracle...
23:16:16 <oerjan> ok then
23:18:14 -!- alise has joined.
23:18:52 <oerjan> hi alise
23:18:54 <alise> Bearded apostrophe--
23:19:14 <oerjan> O_o
23:19:21 <alise> --and he tumbles out of the unit, landing headfirst on something, knowing not what.
23:20:17 <oerjan> so what's the unicode character for bearded apostrophe?
23:20:25 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
23:21:02 -!- augur has joined.
23:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> 0x'>
23:23:04 <Sgeo> Worship Xom! Be Xom's plaything!
23:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I refuse!
23:23:57 <Sgeo> You're a BORING thign
23:23:59 <Sgeo> *thing
23:25:32 <cpressey> ais523: I would guess tcl is statically linked into expect?
23:27:20 <alise> cpressey: I think so.
23:27:27 <alise> Sgeo: Xom?
23:27:46 <alise> So -- barring further incident, it appears that the unit have released me; like from a cannon, not a door.
23:27:54 <Sgeo> alise, hurray!
23:28:30 <Sgeo> An insane god. Cares not for worshippers, but to be entertained
23:28:39 <alise> Yes. Of course the cannon is catapulting me on a collision course with the nation of Standardised Schools Teaching Standardised Curricula.
23:28:58 <alise> Such is (my) life.
23:29:37 <Sgeo> So you'll have to go to school?
23:30:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:31:13 <alise> If you wish to speak in "normal English" (pshaw), yes; probably the latest in a long stream of Not Caring About The Law-related incidents perpetrated by the unit, but there you go.
23:31:41 <alise> Actually they're sending me to some section of it, not the main bit; you know, because I'm all Sensitive and Special Needs now.
23:31:47 <alise> But whatever.
23:33:27 <ais523> cpressey: seems likelyh
23:33:31 <ais523> alise: glad you're here
23:33:34 <ais523> I was worried about you
23:34:08 <alise> ais523: Because I wasn't here for a day or two?
23:34:19 <ais523> yes, when I'd have expected you to be
23:34:30 <ais523> it's not so much the absence as the inconsistency
23:34:32 <alise> Yeah; long story and all that.
23:34:40 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:35:12 <alise> Anyone use Epiphany? It's being stupid
23:35:14 <alise> *stupid.
23:35:23 <ais523> the browser/
23:35:25 <ais523> I do
23:35:44 <ais523> (I use a locked-down Firefox, and a less locked-down Epiphany)
23:36:29 <Sgeo> Awesome!
23:36:30 <alise> ais523: I don't suppose you know how to tell it to use certain Xft settings? It appears that GNOME's settings don't affect the WebKit renderer. I may be forced to create an /etc/fonts/local.conf.
23:36:33 <Sgeo> Random Internet disconnect!
23:36:48 <alise> (I'm trying out using no hinting whatsoever. I'm so totally RADICAL.)
23:36:51 <ais523> alise: oh, I've never tried to customise it beyond hiding and showing toolbars
23:37:06 <ais523> I'm even less like AnMaster than you are in that respect
23:37:11 <alise> ais523: on that note, why doesn't %{width=NUMCHARS} at the end of a bookmark URL that you've put as an input box toolbar thing work?
23:37:14 <alise> the manual says it should
23:37:27 <alise> it isn't really customising Epiphany, just getting Epiphany to listen to my font settings
23:37:34 <ais523> I suppose years of using whatever computer happens to be available is a hard habit to break
23:37:48 <ais523> you get used to default settings for a wide range of systems and programs
23:38:02 <alise> also, can you assign a shortcut key to those bookmarks? all I want is a google search box :P
23:38:23 <ais523> I don't know
23:38:38 <ais523> what's to stop you memorising URLs, though?
23:38:49 <ais523> actually doing a search is rather unreliable...
23:39:03 <alise> ais523: Eh?
23:39:16 <alise> Have you misinterpreted me, or is this the weirdest way of expressing the opinion "I don't like search" ever?
23:39:18 <ais523> well, normally when I want to visit a website, I just go there directly
23:39:30 <alise> Yes ... search is generally used when you don't know what website you wish to visit.
23:39:44 <cpressey> Or when the site you wish to visit, is a search engine.
23:39:46 <cpressey> Om.
23:39:49 <ais523> why would you visit a website without knowing it was there?
23:40:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, are you for real?
23:40:08 <ais523> you'd have no idea how accurate it was
23:40:11 <ais523> or what it was like
23:40:26 <alise> ais523: I know you're playing dumb to prove a point, but let's just say we've already covered your opinion on search in depth and I have, like everyone else, disregarded it as one to adopt myself?
23:40:27 <cpressey> That process used to be called "surfing the net"...
23:40:43 <ais523> cpressey: I suppose
23:40:47 <cpressey> What an outmoded paradigm.
23:40:47 <oerjan> 14:32:44 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering if relative Smetana would be TC
23:40:47 <oerjan> 14:32:53 <ais523> "Swap the step after this one with the step 5 steps before this one."
23:40:47 <ais523> it never seems to lead to useful results, though
23:40:56 <cpressey> Now you receive links from your friends on Facewank.
23:41:18 <cpressey> I am so totally caught in 1996.
23:41:27 <ais523> hmm, I do occasionally use Google to look up backlinks for a website
23:41:31 <ais523> to see what it is before visiting it
23:41:33 <alise> Don't say Facebook, we'll get /another/ ais523 rant!
23:41:38 <alise> They're rare but usually deadly.
23:41:42 <ais523> heh
23:41:42 <oerjan> ais523: almost certainly i think, i already essentially established smetana with sort-of-infinite-setup is TC
23:41:43 <Gregor> FACEBOOK
23:41:53 <ais523> this would be a different situation, though
23:41:54 * Sgeo winces in preparation
23:42:10 <oerjan> (using k*n+l patterns for labels)
23:42:50 <oerjan> (it's somewhere in the old esoteric mailing list archive as Smetana+1)
23:42:57 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, ...
23:42:57 * Phantom_Hoover crosses ais523 off his "sane people" list.
23:43:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: why was I even on there in the first place?
23:43:42 <oerjan> ais523: but i guess that would require you to ... search ... for it *MWAHAHAHA*
23:43:45 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, you seemed sane...
23:44:11 <ais523> if I say I don't use Facebook for the same reason Knuth doesn't use email, would that be considered a rant?
23:44:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: he's fairly sane, just a lunati
23:44:46 <alise> *lunatic
23:44:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Knuth doesn't use email to stop the irritating hordes descending, right?
23:45:00 <ais523> (ESR introduced me to Knuth's secretary via email, btw)
23:45:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, I tend to avoid all guaranteed instant methods of communication
23:45:29 <alise> ais523: BOO
23:45:29 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:45:30 <ais523> anyone who wants to communicate with me has to put up with a potentially random time delay
23:45:33 <alise> *guaranteed instant*
23:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, THIS IS GUARANTEED INSTANT!!! BOO!
23:45:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not always online
23:46:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but you can just avoid emails from people you don't like...
23:46:07 <ais523> I don't see why people tolerate mobile phones at all?
23:46:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yep
23:46:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And they can still send you letters!
23:46:13 <ais523> IRC, too
23:46:22 <ais523> although more often I avoid them based on subject matter rather than author
23:46:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Libertine has a !! ligature...
23:46:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But it is not as legible at low DPIs as Bitstream Charter!
23:46:49 <alise> TYPEFACE WAR.
23:46:49 <Sgeo> You could disable Facebook Chat
23:47:06 <ais523> Sgeo: could you also disable all the other features of Facebook?
23:47:12 <alise> oh, come on, even /I/ think Facebook is an abomination
23:47:15 <ais523> (I imagine Facebook Chat requires Flash or at least JS, anyway)
23:47:20 <Sgeo> How is anything but Facebook Chat guaranteed instant?
23:47:22 <alise> facebook requires JS, more or less
23:47:36 <alise> Sgeo: the rest of Facebook is parasitic, anti-social bullshit that nobody should care about or listen to.
23:47:56 <ais523> Sgeo: mobile phones are the usual case
23:48:06 <ais523> there's a lot of social pressure for people with a mobile to leave it on always, and answer it whenever called
23:48:08 <Sgeo> I meant, any part of Facebook
23:48:22 <ais523> Sgeo: it isn't, it's obnoxious for other reasons
23:48:56 <ais523> rgrn filling up with Fishville spam is obnoxious enough
23:49:02 <ais523> although that isn't really Facebook's fault
23:49:19 -!- relet has left (?).
23:49:37 <ais523> hmm, I've suddenly been inspired to read Facebook's ToS
23:49:38 <oerjan> `addquote * Sgeo awkwardly holds his computer <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldnt attemt to leave eardrops in and use the computer at the same time <Sgeo> I have to leave my head tilted for s few min
23:50:04 <HackEgo> No output.
23:50:04 <alise> HackEgo!
23:50:07 <alise> Oh HackEgo!
23:50:09 <oerjan> argh
23:50:11 <Sgeo> Wha? Why would a usenet group and Facebook stuff be connected?
23:50:17 <oerjan> `quote
23:50:22 <alise> Sgeo: spammers.
23:50:29 <oerjan> eek
23:50:29 <alise> spammers and usenet are always connected
23:50:30 <ais523> hmm, section 1 says "Your privacy is very important to us."
23:50:33 <HackEgo> No output.
23:50:33 <oerjan> `echo hi
23:50:35 <alise> ais523: HAHAHAHA
23:50:46 <ais523> if I agreed to that agreement, then I'd be agreeing that Facebook thinks my privacy is very important to them
23:50:50 <HackEgo> No output.
23:50:55 <alise> Which would be a lie.
23:50:58 * oerjan swats HackEgo -----###
23:51:04 <alise> You cannot legally agree to it unless you're deluded!
23:51:06 <ais523> alise: exactly, thus I can't agree to the agreement
23:51:18 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
23:51:19 <alise> ais523: you can, it'd just be illegal
23:51:20 <ais523> (actually, I can; EULAs and website TOSes are unenforceable in the UK)
23:51:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:51:27 <alise> well, assuming that TOSes worked
23:51:31 <alise> which they of course don't
23:51:37 <ais523> they were ruled unenforceable by the Office of Fair Trading on the basis that nobody reads them anyway
23:51:47 <ais523> and they're designed to not be read in many cases
23:52:09 <ais523> and thus, the "I Agree" button or whatever isn't legally binding because nobody can seriously believe you're telling the truth
23:52:14 <ais523> I /love/ this line of reasoning
23:52:37 <alise> In which my bug is fixed by the process of "wait two years, note that it doesn't happen any more": bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21156
23:53:02 <ais523> the last sentence of 2.1 in Facebook's TOS is incredible, btw
23:53:13 <ais523> especially the bit just before the comma
23:53:18 <alise> what is it?
23:53:44 <ais523> For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos ("IP content"), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook ("IP License"). This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless
23:53:45 <ais523> your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it.
23:54:26 <Sgeo> Remind me not to put my proprietary source code on Facebook
23:54:32 <alise> "If you post something, we can do anything with it."
23:54:38 <Sgeo> Hmm
23:54:38 <alise> Sgeo: (1) why do you have proprietary source code?
23:54:44 <alise> (2) why the hell would you let it anywhere near Facebook?
23:54:44 <ais523> the start of 2.2 is funny for a different reason: "When you delete IP content, it is deleted in a manner similar to emptying the recycle bin on a computer."
23:54:46 <Sgeo> Is it legal to post GPLed code on Facebook then?
23:54:50 <alise> yes.
23:54:52 <Sgeo> 2) Indeed
23:54:55 <alise> but do answer (1)
23:54:55 <ais523> only if you own the copyright, I think
23:55:00 <alise> what ais523 said
23:55:22 <ais523> because the GPL adds required limitations on sublicensing, and the Facebook license there doesn't contain them
23:55:26 <alise> ais523: heh, I'm going to go and bring my recycling bin inside then tip it onto my computer
23:55:32 <Sgeo> alise, because I feel like making a bit of money in Second Life?
23:55:34 <alise> thus giving me a visual analogy to explain how deleting content on Facebook works
23:55:38 <ais523> in fact, you can't even post someone else's BSD3 (or maybe even BSD2?) code on Facebook
23:56:00 <alise> ais523: BSD2 === BSD3 in all sane countries
23:56:05 <oerjan> <ais523> they were ruled unenforceable by the Office of Fair Trading on the basis that nobody reads them anyway <-- wait someone actually used sanity to interpret law?
23:56:07 <Sgeo> What's the difference?
23:56:09 <alise> (it's just a don't-use-my-name-if-I-don't-let-you clause)
23:56:18 <alise> (which is very redundant)
23:56:27 <alise> indeed, it even applies in almost all insane ones
23:56:33 <ais523> I always interpret 3 as a "this license is not a license to use my name in advertising"
23:56:36 <alise> and the places were it doesn't don't have internet :P
23:56:50 <ais523> so basically all it does is to give you an "I explicitly didn't say that..." defence if someone tries
23:56:50 <Sgeo> Noone should ever use sanity to interpret nomic law
23:57:20 <ais523> the third clause is worthwhile, because if the situation ever comes up, it makes life a bit easier for your lawyers
23:57:37 <alise> does anyone know if KDE is any good these days?
23:57:47 <ais523> alise: I haven't tried it for a while
23:57:55 <alise> it's on to 4.5 by now
23:57:58 <ais523> KDE4 has become rather more stable with each version
23:58:05 <alise> apparently Konqueror is better
23:58:08 <alise> as a web browser
23:58:12 <alise> which I can't really believe
23:58:44 <ais523> 3.12 "You will not facilitate or encourage any violations of this Statement."
23:58:54 <ais523> alise: well, it's easier to imagine that Konqueror is better now than it used to be
23:59:03 <ais523> now, if only that didn't have a capital S, it would be truly great
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