←2010-08-27 2010-08-28 2010-08-29→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:23 <ais523> hmm, what happened to the "I have a contract written several years ago that says I own most of Facebook" case?
00:00:41 <alise> wut?
00:01:07 <ais523> let's see... back when the current owner of Facebook was writing the application originally (in the days when it was thefacebook.com)
00:01:17 <ais523> he was being funded by someone who wanted the website made
00:01:33 <ais523> and the terms of the loan gave him a certain percentage of ownership in the website for every day it was late
00:01:42 <ais523> and he was rather late
00:02:01 * ais523 searches Slashdot for the story
00:02:26 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing a headline that it was bullshit
00:03:23 <ais523> http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/07/13/146207/Man-Claims-84-of-Facebook-Gets-Order-Blocking-Assets
00:03:31 <ais523> as usual, the comments > the summary
00:04:11 <ais523> "Under Paragraph 3 of the contract, the Seller and Purchaser agreed that for each day after January 1, 2004, the Purchaser would acquire an additional 1% interest in the business, per day, until the website was completed ... Upon information and belief, the website, thefacebook.com, was completed and operational on February 4th, 2004."
00:05:33 <Sgeo> ais523, I dare you to facilitate a violation of the statement telling you not to facilitate or encourage any violations of the statement
00:05:33 <oerjan> that's 34, not 84?
00:05:45 <ais523> he got another 50% due to a different part of the contract
00:05:48 <oerjan> ah
00:06:02 <Sgeo> Actually, you kind of did, merely by virtue of being here
00:06:13 <Sgeo> You facilitated my violation!
00:06:19 <ais523> good thing I don't have a Facebook account then
00:06:25 <Sgeo> >.> I do
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00:07:10 <Sgeo> alise, want to watch me suffer at Xom's hands?
00:07:11 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:07:24 <alise> Sgeo: not really
00:08:03 <ais523> ooh, the section 2 license that they can do anything with your stuff?
00:08:14 <ais523> apparently, that's only limited to "in connection with Facebook" if you happen to be German
00:08:40 <ais523> also, 17.1 and 17.2 are defined in terms of each other
00:09:07 <alise> ais523: German, or residing in Germany?
00:09:22 <ais523> German, according to the contract
00:09:29 <ais523> hmm, so if you're a German American, or whatever
00:09:31 <alise> ais523: brilliant
00:09:40 <ais523> then the thing is still under the jurisdiction of German courts
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00:09:48 <ais523> assuming it's enforceable at all, and it probably isn't
00:10:58 <ais523> also, it contradicts itself
00:11:05 <ais523> stating that any amendment must be signed by them
00:11:13 <ais523> yet it's been amended, and hasn't actually been signed
00:11:41 <ais523> heh, I love the provision for democracy
00:12:20 <ais523> they can change the agreement, but it can be overriden by a vote - but the quorum is 30% of all Facebook users
00:12:26 <ais523> what's the chance that /that/ quorum will ever be reached?
00:12:51 <ais523> also, "We can make changes for legal or administrative reasons, or to correct an inaccurate statement, upon notice without opportunity to comment."
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00:43:21 <alise> "Country: Space" -- film infobox on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apogee_of_Fear
00:45:32 <Sgeo> It's not acceptable to sit in and just observe a course you haven't payed for, is it?
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00:51:12 <alise> Sgeo: I'd ... assume not ...
00:59:18 <olsner> I'd assume it was acceptable
00:59:25 <olsner> paying for it is silly
00:59:55 * olsner shouldn't have gotten the burger with pepper on it
01:00:18 <olsner> (it delays my sleep by taking more time to eat)
01:05:28 <alise> olsner: this is america their universities are weird
01:05:38 <alise> who knows what their etiquette is
01:07:16 <olsner> alise: yeah, I dunno, it's probably silly
01:10:41 <olsner> ("yeah" there was a response to the first line, the rest applies as a response to the statement about etiquette)
01:11:20 <Sgeo> All I know is that comex retweeted some thing about some freshman sitting in on a graduate course
01:11:54 <nooga> hah
01:12:31 <nooga> students
01:13:34 <alise> Sgeo: you only read comex's tweets because he's internet famous :)
01:14:03 <Sgeo> comex's tweets are how I found out he's internet famous
01:14:21 <olsner> who's the internet and why is he famous?
01:15:42 <alise> olsner: I am totally confused by your question.
01:16:22 <olsner> alise: the point did not escape you! I am delighted
01:16:47 <alise> THE ESCAPING of the POINT
01:16:59 <alise> a novel by O.L.S. Ner
01:17:22 <olsner> Mr Ner, how did it come to be? the escaping?
01:17:44 <olsner> well, at first it wasn't... then (at a later point, this was) it was
01:18:23 <olsner> yes, I think that may be the whole of it
01:19:32 <alise> As Tab sat bored in orbit, a beep sounded. A transmission. He let it through, and crackled sound streamed out of the speakers. "There isn't much--" the sound cut out for a second -- "--I need--has escaped--I repeat:--the point has--" The static built up to a point, and the transmission ended. Tab opened a channel to the base on Earth. "Command," he said, "I think we may have a problem."
01:19:46 <alise> This could totally work.
01:20:02 <alise> olsner: all we need to do is blend your lines and my lines
01:20:07 <alise> and we will have the greatest bad novel of all time
01:20:37 <olsner> it would be bad, but it would be the greatest of the bads - the least bad if you might
01:20:56 <nooga> comex? internet famous?
01:21:15 <alise> olsner: it would be an EFFORTLESS BLENDING OF GENRES, that of the English, scholarly professor Mr. Ner, and the space-faring, risk-taking Captain Tab.
01:21:23 <alise> nooga: yeah; he's behind the latest iPhone jailbreak that's all the rage.
01:21:27 <alise> jailbreakme.com and all that.
01:21:33 <nooga> wtf?!
01:21:40 <olsner> Mr Ner and Captain Tab - yes this does fill me with confidence
01:21:48 <alise> nooga: why wtf
01:21:53 <olsner> it does!
01:22:06 <nooga> i couldn't tell that from his appearances on the #
01:22:14 <nooga> however, gz
01:22:19 <alise> nooga: what
01:22:38 <Sgeo> He appeared in a cloud; he appeared in a hallway
01:22:46 <alise> olsner: at the start of the novel, it's two separate narratives, Mr. Ner and Captain Nab changing each chapter, but then they CONVERGE.
01:22:48 <alise> how literary is that?
01:23:14 <olsner> well, being a novel I would say TOTALLY literary
01:23:25 <olsner> I mean COMPLETELY
01:23:39 <alise> olsner: we should also have flashback chapters
01:23:45 <alise> like to Mr. Ner's formative moments as a child prodigy
01:23:49 <alise> and Captain Nab's troubled childhood
01:23:56 <olsner> yes yes
01:24:43 <oerjan> the (very late) reveal of exactly _what_ has escaped will of course be horribly cliched
01:24:58 <alise> nonono, it is never revealed
01:25:01 <alise> that is the thing
01:25:03 <alise> it is merely the Point
01:25:15 <olsner> I think we already covered what escaped, it is the point that did
01:25:23 <oerjan> oh. i was thinking the opposite.
01:25:26 <alise> thus allowing us to demonstrate, in a parodic yet sincere fashion, what happens to humans in the face of the unknown, and the tropes we all must ultimately succumb to
01:25:34 <olsner> "but what's the point!?" you may ask
01:25:37 <alise> of course, the sequel reveals what the Point is immediately.
01:25:42 <oerjan> (as in, it would be something singularly underwhelming)
01:25:43 <olsner> well... that shall eventually be apparent
01:26:03 <oerjan> an underwhelming singularity, that's the point
01:26:25 <nooga> alise: what what?
01:26:40 * olsner suspects oerjan to be overwhelmingly underwhelmed
01:26:43 <olsner> *expects
01:27:12 <alise> olsner: full names: Oliver Lance Sterling Ner and Jack Tab
01:27:35 <olsner> ah, "Lance" is a pretty good name, well done
01:27:54 <oerjan> it's pretty good, but not sterling
01:28:03 <nooga> Oswald Eric Robertson Jan ?
01:28:18 <alise> nooga: yes, he's the Prime Minister
01:28:23 <olsner> indeed only sterling is sterling
01:29:00 <alise> nooga: although let's just go with Oswald Robertson Jan and leave the E out, otherwise we'll have to come with a hideous explanation for the proliferation of middle names
01:29:13 <alise> it's easy enough to just brush away in the case of Oliver, since he's all posh-like :p
01:29:26 <oerjan> olsner: you seem unfamiliar with the alternate meaning
01:29:50 <olsner> oerjan: seemingly, I may seem so
01:29:52 <oerjan> eric is a bit boring
01:30:04 <nooga> Eric Idle is not
01:30:50 <Sgeo> My ear still hurts
01:31:03 <oerjan> i generally ascribe to the principle that the simplest name should be first, anyhow, otherwise it sounds stilted
01:31:05 <olsner> Sgeo: cut it off before it spreads!
01:31:17 <alise> oerjan: yes, well, we can't really change Ner
01:31:27 <alise> otherwise the shoddy olsner-based foundation of all of this crap falls apart
01:31:29 <pikhq> 17:22 <+cheesworshiper> pikhq: My CPU is idling at 99 degrees celsius.
01:31:37 <oerjan> Odd Even Robertson Jan
01:31:39 <alise> Jack Tab is clearly an excellent name for a rugged American spaceship captain though
01:31:43 <pikhq> That is a *very* forboding thing to have as a last message before pinging out.
01:31:43 <alise> pikhq: wow.
01:31:43 <oerjan> nice norwegian names
01:31:47 <alise> haha
01:31:52 <olsner> oerjan: odd and even are nice norwegian names
01:32:02 <nooga> Guttorm
01:32:02 <nooga> :D
01:32:27 <alise> "THE ESCAPING of the POINT" is a very good high-brow sci-fi title though, it could get us critical acclaim no matter what the contents of the book
01:32:27 <oerjan> nooga: we don't have a G in the acronym
01:32:44 <olsner> alise: you're assuming they won't actually read the book?
01:32:53 <alise> olsner: it's sci-fi. of course they won't
01:33:01 <nooga> oerjan: but it's a norwegian name, right?
01:33:06 <oerjan> nooga: sure
01:33:13 <olsner> hah, right... only the stupid customers do :P
01:33:14 <nooga> Guttorm says bæsj
01:33:29 <nooga> all the time
01:33:29 <olsner> drittsnakk
01:33:43 <nooga> olsner: oh no, you too?
01:33:52 <olsner> nooga: nope, I just fake it
01:33:59 <nooga> oof
01:34:01 <alise> olsner: well sci-fi hasn't got the greatest literary reputation ;)
01:34:12 <alise> *:)
01:34:20 <Sgeo> We have iStates now
01:34:26 <Sgeo> Southern iCalifornia
01:34:27 <pikhq> alise: Except for when the scifi in question has a good literary reputation.
01:34:32 <pikhq> Then, they argue it can't be science fiction.
01:34:50 <olsner> of course not, if it's good it's literature and not scifi
01:35:00 <alise> it's actually hard to come up with sci-fi authors that have escaped the toilet
01:35:09 <Sgeo> [i]California is now officially owned by Apple
01:35:30 <pikhq> Clearly "literature" only applies to things that are approved by 80 year old English majors!
01:35:50 <nooga> I've recently read some extremely awesome sci-fi
01:35:54 <alise> ("I have been a soreheaded occupant of a file drawer labeled 'science fiction' ever since [publishing 'Player Piano'], and I would like out, particularly since so many serious critics regularly mistake the drawer for a urinal." --Vonnegut)
01:36:09 <oerjan> Sgeo: maybe we could have them take iRan and iSrael next
01:36:12 <nooga> but it was from Polish author, probably it was even translated to english
01:36:23 <olsner> oh, but vonnegut makes literature rather than scifi, right?
01:36:28 <alise> nooga: Stanisław Lem by any chance? :P
01:36:32 <pikhq> olsner: That's the claim.
01:36:43 <alise> yes, I suppose Vonnegut managed to escape the urinal eventually
01:36:56 <olsner> I mean he *actually* doesn't deserve the scifi gutter, does he?
01:37:09 <alise> of course he doesn't
01:37:12 <alise> many sci-fi authors don't
01:37:22 <olsner> arguably none of them do
01:37:28 <pikhq> Oh, there's a few.
01:37:37 <pikhq> Their work is not very popular.
01:37:43 <olsner> bah! *arguably* anything, of course, since anything can be argued
01:37:43 <alise> it's a relic from the days of Amazing Stories!!! Robots from OUTER SPACE abduct BEAUTIFUL BARELY-CLAD WOMEN as HOSTAGES!!!
01:37:49 <alise> ISSUE #43!
01:38:01 <olsner> omg they are BARELY-CLAD
01:38:06 <alise> BARELY EVEN CLAD AT ALL
01:38:09 <nooga> alise: no, his successor
01:38:10 <nooga> http://www.culture.pl/en/culture/artykuly/dz_dukaj_czarne_oceany
01:38:11 <pikhq> (with the exception of extended universe stuff. That's almost universally dreck, and somehow popular.)
01:38:22 <alise> How can you succeed another person XD
01:38:23 <nooga> this description is not accurate
01:38:29 <nooga> the book is really good as for SF
01:38:37 <pikhq> alise: Amazing Stories actually had some good stuff in it back in the day.
01:38:48 <olsner> herp derp, time to sleep methinks
01:38:48 <nooga> i mean really
01:38:51 <alise> pikhq: hmm, yeah, amazing stories was actually a real one
01:38:55 <alise> i was trying to come up with a name that sounded like it
01:38:59 <alise> but it's so hard, they all had stupid names like that
01:39:19 <Sgeo> Fantastic Voyage^HStories
01:39:22 <oerjan> alien science
01:39:31 <pikhq> Yeah; pulp magazines have some of the stupidest names.
01:39:33 <alise> pikhq: Star Trek novels are like badly-coded nano-machines
01:39:43 <alise> useless and replicating at a ridiculous rate
01:39:59 <olsner> alise: oh, I think that counts as making a funny
01:40:09 <Sgeo> alise, hey, there's a book with fan-submitted stores and there were some that I liked!
01:40:11 <alise> olsner: have i not been making funnies?
01:40:18 <alise> Sgeo: stfu
01:40:29 <Sgeo> ...
01:40:31 <Sgeo> No
01:40:47 <olsner> alise: this observation has no relation to previous events
01:40:49 <alise> darn
01:40:55 <alise> olsner: you're fun when you don't sleep; don't
01:41:06 <olsner> alise: thanks :D
01:41:10 <nooga> btw, alise, do you know some books by Lem?
01:41:26 <olsner> anyway, I'm woefully low on caffeinated beverages with dubious additives
01:41:27 <alise> nooga: I know of them, certainly; I want to read Solaris sometime.
01:41:31 <Sgeo> There was one story, Of Cabbages and Kings
01:41:31 <nooga> ah
01:41:48 <nooga> try Dukaj, if his works were translated
01:41:50 <olsner> this does not bode well for the morn
01:41:56 <Sgeo> No
01:41:58 <pikhq> alise: BTW, Amazing Stories wasn't merely "a real one". It was the first pulp magazine devoted to science fiction.
01:42:07 <nooga> he is called the recent Lem
01:42:09 <alise> pikhq: yeah i know
01:42:20 <Sgeo> http://www.adherents.com/lit/bk_Thatcher.html#Cabbages
01:42:27 <alise> it's just, you know
01:42:28 <alise> the name is crap
01:43:08 <pikhq> It is.
01:43:11 <olsner> "pulp" is fun, it supposedly refers to the paper this particular quality of magazine was printed on... but I'm not quite sure what quality that is... I mean, all paper is pulp at some stage is it not?
01:43:38 <olsner> everything means nothing
01:44:15 <Sgeo> I read "pulp" as "for popular consumption"
01:44:19 <Sgeo> For some reason
01:44:41 <nooga> alise: http://www.dukaj.pl/English/ReadingRoom/BlackOceans
01:44:47 <nooga> a mere fragment
01:45:00 <alise> olsner: please don't sleep this is awesome
01:45:07 <olsner> "The name pulp comes from the cheap wood pulp paper on which the magazines were printed."
01:45:14 <alise> "His first codename was WINNIE_THE_POOH" gahahahaha
01:45:20 <pikhq> olsner: Yeah, but the paper they used had fairly minimal processing. It pretty much amounted to sticking wood pulp in a frame and letting it dry.
01:45:29 <alise> "He liked the poetry of English metaphysicians"
01:45:34 <alise> nooga: this is utterly bizarre
01:45:45 <nooga> ;]
01:45:48 <olsner> hmm, well, isn't that what normal paper "pretty much" amounts to?
01:46:02 <alise> nooga: that first paragraph made absolutely no sense
01:46:20 <nooga> the book is about DARPA, corporations, neuromonads and more
01:46:21 <alise> it's, uh, not particularly good writing unless it has larger context to explain it
01:46:24 <alise> it's just random words
01:46:39 <nooga> it makes sense only if you're reading the whole
01:46:42 <nooga> book
01:46:51 <nooga> this fragmet is about some stupid computer
01:46:55 <pikhq> olsner: With some chemical processes to get a finer paper out of it...
01:46:57 <olsner> alise: yes, it is quite random, but if you let it make sense it will
01:47:12 <alise> ***
01:47:17 <nooga> not really relevant
01:47:20 <nooga> to the whole story
01:47:21 <alise> "The Point is approaching... Mach 7..."
01:47:35 <pikhq> Bleaching, for instance...
01:47:38 <alise> Command's calls of impending destruction did nothing to ease Tab's spirits.
01:47:53 <olsner> alise: oh! so at this point, it is not already established that the point has escaped?
01:48:11 <alise> He clenched his teeth, sat straight in his seat, closed his eyes, bit his lip... and aimed the ship's weapons at itself.
01:48:20 <alise> olsner: it has escaped already ... but now it approaches Tab
01:48:35 <olsner> right, Tab's Predicament
01:49:14 <alise> An infinitesimal moment passed; impossible to speak about, as though it occurred on the human scale of things, Tab did not think a single thought in its passing. And then, he fired.
01:49:24 <nooga> derp
01:49:38 <olsner> herp nooga derp
01:49:39 <oerjan> "impossible to speak about" XD
01:50:07 <alise> He was expecting eternal nothingness so greatly that for a second or two he didn't bother to think, and he was just about ready to conclude that he was dead when he felt the ship around him. He opened his eyes. Somehow, the shots had missed the ship entirely. He ran a diagnostic.
01:50:14 <alise> oerjan: CONTRADICTIONS ARE LITERARY
01:50:37 <alise> ***
01:50:39 <alise> OVER TO MR. NER
01:51:09 <alise> "If I'm going to consult with you I'd at least like tea to be delivered on a *semi*-regular basis, dammit."
01:51:17 <alise> Oliver was not in a terribly good mood.
01:51:32 <olsner> "Diagnostics show nothing." Nothing!? Well, obviously the ship is still there, the shots had missed it.
01:51:36 <alise> olsner: HEY
01:51:38 <alise> THIS IS A MR. NER CHAPTER
01:52:16 <olsner> TAB MATERIAL!?
01:53:11 <olsner> seriously, I don't have much to contribute right here... it doesn't work if you expect it of me
01:53:27 <alise> :P
01:53:40 <olsner> who is mr ner anyway?
01:53:48 <alise> A lieutenant -- or, as Oliver would have had him called, leftenant -- approached Oliver. "Sir, Captain Tab just fired a shot at the Excellence itself in a desperate attempt to destroy the Point. But he just communicated with us a second ago; the ship is still there. No sign of the Point."
01:53:59 <alise> olsner: a professor of ... astrophysics or something
01:54:09 <alise> scholarly, very English. lives in a very old, grand house.
01:54:24 <olsner> No sign? No point? Obviously this is victory for Tab.
01:54:28 <alise> irritable. likes tea. genius. helping the US space agency at this point for no apparent reason
01:55:21 <alise> "Aha," said Tab, "but a sign would point to the point, and since there is no sign, there must be no point, as the point that would be there -- that is, the sign -- would point to the point; and if the point were pointed to, Tab would know where it is. Since he doesn't, the point must obviously be gone."
01:55:33 <alise> "Sir..." said the baffled lieutenant.
01:55:34 <alise> erm
01:55:39 <alise> *Tab -> Oliver
01:55:50 <alise> "Sorry, sorry," said Oliver. "Has he run a diagnostic?"
01:55:56 <alise> "He's doing so as we speak."
01:56:09 <alise> ***
01:56:21 <alise> Tab drummed his fingers as the diagnostic ran.
01:56:39 <alise> The computer beeped. "Diagnostic complete", read the screen in front of him.
01:56:47 -!- calamari has joined.
01:56:56 <alise> Tab forwarded it to Command, and waited for the analysts to respond.
01:56:58 -!- calamari has left (?).
01:57:32 <alise> What seemed to Tab like an eternity of uncertainty passed, and eventually a response echoed out from the communications system.
01:57:37 <olsner> A diagnostic? How quaint. Did you expect the Diagnostic to simply point out the Point?
01:57:41 <alise> "The shots definitely fired. But the Point intercepted them."
01:57:52 <alise> "Have I destroyed it?"
01:58:00 <alise> "No. The shots did no damage."
01:58:03 <alise> ***
01:58:08 <olsner> Intercepted the Point? But would there then not be a Sign?
01:58:32 <oerjan> i sincerely doubt the shots were intercepted. that would require them getting to the point, after all.
01:58:35 <alise> i need a name for a US general now
01:58:42 <alise> surname
01:59:05 <oerjan> MacFord
01:59:09 <olsner> how about... Attenbauer?
01:59:41 <alise> great
02:00:11 <alise> Oliver burst into the quiet office of General Attenbauer. "What the hell are you doing, bursting into my office like this?" the general asked, although it was more like an interrogating demand.
02:00:24 <oerjan> and if there is one thing we can assume here, it's that nothing can get to the point.
02:00:31 <alise> "Sir -- forgive me -- I have reason to believe that the Point is sentient."
02:00:47 <alise> "Sentient?" said Attenbauer. "You mean it can think?"
02:00:53 <olsner> oerjan: we are quite close to the point, in fact the Point has already been intercepted
02:01:01 <olsner> (or so Command says)
02:01:05 <alise> "Yes; and act upon those thoughts, too. I think it put itself in the way of the shots to keep Tab alive."
02:01:38 <oerjan> hm that's a good point
02:01:40 <alise> "Then... it is either benevolent, or acting according to some greater plan that involves Tab in some way. But why do you believe this? The Point's actions have appeared completely random up until now."
02:02:23 <alise> "Because the ship's tracking of the Point shows erratic movement patterns that are entirely consistent with those of a being experiencing fear."
02:02:28 <alise> ***
02:04:37 <nooga> http://fcuk.it/ O_o
02:06:26 <olsner> "Tab, look at it this way. It's afraid of you - you should have tea with it."
02:09:01 <olsner> "Tea with a Point? What does that even mean!?" thought Tab. He nodded as if the statement was both profound and obvious - it probably was to Oliver.
02:09:09 <oerjan> i think the point is to prevent tab completing his mission
02:09:18 <olsner> that may well be why it is
02:10:10 <pikhq> http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html Articles like this make me want to learn Mandarin.
02:10:16 <pikhq> *Just so I have room to mock people*.
02:10:34 <pikhq> (okay, so I cheat, because I can *already* comprehend (simple) written Chinese. But still.)
02:11:07 <olsner> alise: and that shall be it for now - for now I shall sleep
02:11:24 <alise> olsner: i think i may just cut out all your parts
02:11:30 <alise> and therefore cease all the profits
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02:15:19 <pikhq> "Very few Americans, on the other hand, ever learn to produce a natural calligraphic hand in Chinese that resembles anything but that of an awkward Chinese third-grader."
02:15:23 <pikhq> I MOCK THAT!
02:15:44 <alise> pikhq: is there anything wrong with that article?
02:16:13 <pikhq> alise: Factually? Not a hell of a lot.
02:16:22 <pikhq> alise: Opinion-wise? So very very much.
02:16:35 <alise> "Chinese is hard" seems like a reasonable opinion.
02:16:59 <pikhq> Except that he then goes on to say that it's impossibly hard and that it takes years and years just to learn all the characters.
02:17:09 <pikhq> Which is... Comical.
02:18:10 <pikhq> He also seems to labor under the impression that English's orthography is easy.
02:18:26 <pikhq> (it's one of the most complex.)
02:18:35 <alise> lojban solves all problems
02:18:47 <pikhq> Except getting laid.
02:19:45 <pikhq> (also: Japanese's orthography is, in fact, harder than Chinese.)
02:19:48 <alise> chinese doesn't solve that problem either :P
02:19:58 <alise> [[However, in mašq and those styles of kufic writing which lack consonant pointing, the ambiguities are more serious, for here different roots are written the same. ﯨطر could represent the root nẓr 'see' as above, but also nṭr 'protect', bṭr 'pride', bẓr 'clitoris' or 'with flint', as well as several inflections and derivations of each of these root words.]]
02:19:58 <pikhq> alise: Does if you're gay.
02:20:17 <pikhq> Or female!
02:20:27 <alise> pikhq: Yes... because men like nothing more than Chinese.
02:20:39 <pikhq> alise: No, the thing is, there's a gender disparity in China.
02:20:50 <pikhq> Significantly more men than women.
02:21:08 <alise> Well, with Lojban you could also seduce someone from Lojbaia.
02:21:09 <alise> Lojbania?
02:21:11 <alise> Lojbia?
02:21:23 <pikhq> Lojbanistan.
02:21:32 <alise> Lojbanistania.
02:22:29 <alise> lol @ 嚔
02:22:31 <alise> worst character ever
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02:24:56 <pikhq> What, it's just 口 + 土 + (... the 家 radical without the dot; can't type it easily) + 田 + 足
02:24:59 <pikhq> GRR
02:25:35 <pikhq> I was looking up a couple of characters because they don't have Japanese readings (so I can't just type them)
02:25:57 <pikhq> Oh, wait, that's just an obnoxiously archaic reading. Anyways.
02:26:20 <pikhq> 口 + 土 + + 田 + 足
02:26:25 <pikhq> STOP DOING THAT IRSSI
02:26:29 <pikhq> PASTING != ENTER
02:28:41 <pikhq> 口 + 土 + 冖 + 田 + 厶 + 疋
02:28:43 <pikhq> There.
02:28:46 <pikhq> That's all.
02:28:56 <pikhq> Two archaicisms and something that's not a character. Curses.
02:29:40 <pikhq> alise: Anyways. Lojbanistania Minshushugi Gijin Minkyouwakoku.
02:29:50 <alise> pikhq: wat
02:30:00 <pikhq> alise: The Democratic People's Republic of Lojbanistania.
02:30:16 <alise> ah
02:33:41 <pikhq> This article is at least accurate in that romanisation for Chinese languages sucks majorly.
02:34:21 <pikhq> The Roman alphabet is just lacking in good ways of representing phonemes.
02:35:03 <pikhq> (arguably, romanisation for Anglo-Frisian languages also sucks majorly, and for the same reason...)
02:36:02 <pikhq> "ut where the real difficulty comes in is when you start to really use Chinese to express yourself. You suddenly find yourself straitjacketed -- when you say the sentence with the intonation that feels natural, the tones come out all wrong."
02:36:34 <pikhq> How do I know he's ignorant? Because this happens with a *lot* of languages! English's stress patterns sound freaking bizarre in *most* languages!
02:41:42 <alise> amaximaximaximainineoaerion
02:44:27 * Sgeo once again growls at broken power cables
02:44:35 <Sgeo> My computer will probably hibernate soon
02:44:40 <Sgeo> Because it's not getting power
02:44:50 <Sgeo> Because cables that enter my possession break uinstantly
02:45:11 * Sgeo cries
02:47:56 <Sgeo> Well, it spontaneously decided to start charging again
02:55:50 <alise> a hole in tpace and sime
02:56:30 <ais523> place and slime!
02:57:41 <oerjan> the relative playslime
03:11:09 <Sgeo> Playground of Jiyva
03:24:00 <alise> PLACE and SLIME, the critically-acclaimed sequel to THE ESCAPING of the POINT
03:24:51 <ais523> this reminded me of a debate on Slashdot
03:25:14 <ais523> where they were trying to discuss a programming language that had no legal issues at all, in practice or theory, and additionally that nobody would try to sue you for using
03:25:25 <ais523> in the end, they settled on Common Lisp, on the basis that nobody cares about it
03:28:02 -!- cheater99 has joined.
03:28:38 <alise> ais523: heh
03:28:53 <Sgeo> Python has legal issues?
03:29:02 <alise> every damn language has legal issues in the US
03:29:07 <alise> there is a software parent for everything
03:29:12 <alise> ais523: i'm sure there's a patent on roman numerals :P
03:29:19 <ais523> probably multiple
03:29:35 <ais523> CLC could probably patent CLC-INTERCAL style roman numerals right now as a design patent
03:29:53 <ais523> other than the fact he's Scottish and thus lives in a marginally saner patent environment than the US
03:30:29 * Sgeo wonders if PSOX is patentable
03:30:37 <Sgeo> Or, well, the idea of .. what PSOX is
03:31:17 <pikhq> If linked lists can be patented, so can PSOX.
03:31:35 <Sgeo> ......linked lists are patented?!
03:31:39 <pikhq> Yes.
03:32:05 <pikhq> Most every non-trivial program will violate a software patent. Just give up on programming legally.
03:33:13 * Sgeo goes to patent "Hello, World!"
03:33:20 <ais523> prior art...
03:33:38 <ais523> actually, arguably Bilski means software patents aren't valid in the US any more, at least some of them
03:33:39 <Sgeo> "Hello, World!!!"
03:34:03 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah...
03:34:13 <pikhq> The US is still a crazy legal environment though.
03:34:14 <Sgeo> Bilski?
03:34:17 <ais523> the courts even managed to reject some
03:34:25 <ais523> Sgeo: you could try following the Supreme Court more
03:34:30 <pikhq> Even if you *are* perfectly legal, you can probably be sued into bankruptcy.
03:34:37 <ais523> In re Bilski is the normal abbrevation
03:34:55 <pikhq> As defending yourself in court is expensive.
03:35:08 * alise installs Konversation to briefly review KDE 4's general usability
03:35:21 <alise> ais523: CLC is Scottish? cool
03:35:29 <pikhq> To the point of being effectively impossible if your opponent is a large corporation.
03:35:30 <alise> I will henceforth refer to him as Scotty.
03:35:35 <ais523> I don't know for certain, but there's very strong circumstantial evidence
03:35:59 <alise> <ais523> Sgeo: you could try following the Supreme Court more ;; haha
03:36:13 <ais523> why haha?
03:36:15 <alise> ais523: Do his bytes give off a certain hint of a Scottish accent?
03:36:29 <ais523> alise: CLC-INTERCAL's documentation describes it as a Scottish compiler
03:36:36 <alise> also, just the amusingness of a Brit telling a random person to follow Supreme Court proceedings, as if that were a perfectly normal thing to do
03:36:48 <alise> ais523: It's INTERCAL. Shouldn't that be evidence /against/ CLC being Scottish?
03:37:20 <ais523> hmm, I don't know
03:37:22 <Sgeo> So everything in the documentation is Gospel lies?
03:37:30 <ais523> he'd have had to have learnt Scottish Gaelic in order to improve the ruse
03:37:49 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ kde4-config
03:37:49 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$
03:37:52 <pikhq> alise: Isn't Sgeo... American?
03:37:57 <alise> pikhq: Yes.
03:38:30 <ais523> alise: how is KDE4, atm?
03:38:30 <alise> ais523: as opposed to Mexican Gaelic?
03:38:38 <ais523> as opposed to Irish Gaelic
03:38:44 <alise> well, yes, that would be reasonable
03:38:45 <alise> KDE 4 is yet to be evaluated.
03:38:47 <pikhq> alise: Ah; misparsed your statement.
03:38:51 <pikhq> alise: Anyways.
03:38:55 <alise> Kind of hard to do so in GNOME.
03:39:07 <alise> I should probably install Konqueror instead.
03:39:11 <pikhq> FUCKING FUCK FUCK. I know this is minorly old news but AARGH
03:39:23 <pikhq> There's fucking segregated proms in the US still.
03:39:50 <pikhq> Fuck the south. Should've let them suceed.
03:39:50 -!- kalise has joined.
03:39:54 <pikhq> Erm. Secede.
03:39:56 <kalise> it seems just like older KDE 4s to me
03:40:02 <kalise> which is probably not a good thing
03:40:15 <kalise> GNOME works, but it's just plain boring :-D
03:40:27 <kalise> I don't run Linux because I want things to actually /work/
03:40:57 <kalise> ais523: is there a reason you won't just adopt the obvious IRC naming convention and say "'In re Bilski'"?
03:41:00 <kalise> that is, "In re Bilski"
03:41:40 <ais523> to me, that's almost as grammatically incorrect as leaving off accents
03:41:54 <kalise> ais523: would you object to "Moby Dick"?
03:42:02 <kalise> after all, that would normally be set as \emph{Moby Dick}
03:42:12 <kalise> but the quotes suffice in ASCII
03:42:15 <ais523> for book names, it's less clear
03:42:18 <kalise> also, Wikipedia uses ''...'' for italics
03:42:21 <ais523> but quotes make it look like a subtitle
03:42:24 <kalise> lending more credence to it, I suppose
03:42:24 <ais523> and those are doublesinglequotes
03:42:29 <kalise> yes, but still
03:42:36 <kalise> ais523: ok, what about 'In re Bilski'?
03:42:39 <ais523> I imagine most IRCers would think "''Moby Dick''" would be crazy
03:42:49 <ais523> then it looks like a trendy middle name
03:42:56 <ais523> along the lines of Elliot 'alise' Hird
03:43:11 <kalise> two ts, god dammit
03:43:21 <ais523> err, OK
03:43:29 <ais523> for some reason I'd remembered it as being specifically 1
03:43:30 <kalise> I swear, if my life was a sitcom, the spelling of my name would be the reliable comic foil.
03:43:35 <ais523> I knew you got annoyed whenever people got it wrong
03:43:38 <kalise> heh
03:43:51 <kalise> You try spending your formative years having your name spelled wrong in increasingly creative ways :)
03:43:51 <ais523> but I'd remembered "Elliott normally has two t's", probably because of you
03:43:53 <ais523> and so changed it
03:44:04 <kalise> "Elliot" is the most common variation of the name, I think.
03:44:16 <kalise> it is what Wikipedia lists the name under
03:45:15 <Sgeo> I once wrote a card to a girl. I remembered seeing her name on a piece of paper, but when I asked my mom, she said the name would be spelled differently from what I thought I saw
03:45:40 <Sgeo> So I wrote down the spelling that she said, which turned out to be wrong
03:46:04 <pikhq> kalise: Imagine having a last name that only people from Britain can spell or pronounce. :P
03:46:21 <pikhq> Well, in your case it wouldn't come up much. But here... urgh.
03:46:29 <kalise> pikhq: Americans have trouble pronouncing "Hird", I think.
03:46:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, I think I'll call you Sauce
03:46:41 <pikhq> kalise: Anything like "herd"?
03:46:43 <kalise> Or rather, they simply have no idea how to go about pronouncing it, and definitely don't conclude it should be pronounced as a Brit would pronounce "herd".
03:46:47 <kalise> pikhq: British "herd".
03:46:58 <Sgeo> How's that different from heard?
03:46:58 <ais523> I'd pronounce "hird" and "herd" the same way...
03:47:03 <ais523> and "heard" for that matter
03:47:07 <kalise> ais523: Yes, but speakers of other dialects may not.
03:47:24 <ais523> and "hurd"
03:47:28 <pikhq> kalise: So, same as "heard" and "herd" and "hurd"...
03:47:42 <Sgeo> For some reason, people sometimes say "Set" or sometimes a name only relate to mine in that there's one syllible
03:47:58 <kalise> Konqueror gives me the same slightly-upset, mostly confused feeling as always
03:48:12 <kalise> it's quite upsetting
03:48:22 <pikhq> kalise: Imagine an ignorant American doing "Worcester".
03:48:31 -!- kwertii has joined.
03:48:33 <kalise> pikhq: War cester.
03:48:38 <pikhq> kalise: War Chester.
03:48:44 <kalise> Seriously?
03:48:46 <pikhq> Yes.
03:48:51 <pikhq> THEY INSERT A FUCKING H
03:48:53 <kalise> Americans are more retarded than I thought.
03:48:58 <Sgeo> Once, I needed a late pass from some school librarian, and said my name "Gold"
03:49:10 <pikhq> I've also heard "War Kester".
03:49:16 <pikhq> I've actually never heard War Cester.
03:49:16 <ais523> your name isn't "Sgeo"?
03:49:22 <Sgeo> She asked "man?". I was thoroughly confused by this, and said yes, assuming she was asking if I was a man
03:49:28 <kalise> ais523: Seth Gold Seth Gold Seth Gold Seth Gold
03:49:32 <Sgeo> Turns out, she was asking if I meant "Goldman"
03:49:40 <kalise> [Sgeo's father has a heart attack]
03:49:43 <pikhq> And I'm absolutely astonished when someone pronounces it right.
03:49:54 <ais523> "Worcester" is pronounced something like "wooster" but with a shorter oo
03:49:57 <kalise> pikhq: Wusster. Not hard.
03:50:05 <pikhq> ais523: Very well aware.
03:50:14 <ais523> "Leicester" is another good one for confusing foreigners
03:50:19 <pikhq> kalise: Yes, but nobody does it right.
03:50:26 <Sgeo> kalise, I don't think you know my middle name
03:50:29 <pikhq> ais523: Lester?
03:50:31 <kalise> Sgeo: Seth Sgeo Gold
03:50:39 <kalise> does anyone know what KDE component contains the control centre?
03:51:11 <pikhq> kalise: Well, nobody except people from Massachusetts or Britan.
03:51:13 <kalise> yay, I coerced Epiphany into following my evil hintingless issues
03:51:16 <kalise> pikhq: *Britain
03:51:21 <pikhq> Yes, that.
03:51:28 <Sgeo> kalise, your nick reminds me of a Siner's nick
03:51:49 <kalise> Sgeo: True. I was wondering why it seemed familiar to me.
03:52:04 <kalise> All I remember about kaelis is that (s)he hated Gregor for some unrevealed, probably-stupid reason.
03:52:18 <kalise> (Actually, (s)he is probably the safest pronoun for every single member of Sine.)
03:54:44 <Sgeo> Gregor is still a Siner, fwiw
03:54:57 <kalise> Okay.
03:55:00 <Sgeo> Although he recently tried to do a poll asking if he should leave
03:55:12 <kalise> How attention whorey.
03:55:41 <Sgeo> I think people were angry at him for some reason or another
03:56:03 <ais523> what is Sine?
03:56:15 <kalise> ais523: a dump.
03:56:35 <kalise> My experience with Siners is that they're a bunch of whiney, inconsistent, boring... entities. So it is.
03:56:50 <ais523> let me rephrase that: what is it meant to be?
03:56:54 <kalise> ais523: An IRC network.
03:57:00 <kalise> An "omg private" IRC network.
03:57:10 <kalise> irc.aftran.com, port 9999, I believe.
03:57:22 <kalise> Maybe not; aftran.com appears to be dead.
03:57:25 <oerjan> repent, siners
03:57:34 <kalise> repnt
03:59:26 * Sgeo glowers at alise
03:59:38 <kalise> For revealing the secret?
03:59:52 <kalise> Tee hee. I'm disrupting the sanctity of the Prolonged, Internet-Based Grumble.
04:00:08 <Sgeo> I think certain persons would at least prefer if you used the IP address instead, although I may be mistaken
04:00:34 <kalise> How can anyone even care about that?
04:00:47 <Sgeo> The same way I might care if I set up sethgold.net
04:00:51 <Sgeo> Or sethgold.name
04:01:03 <kalise> Ah, yes. Because "Aftran" is someone's real name.
04:08:21 -!- sftp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:16:44 <kalise> d-a-
04:19:19 <oerjan> -r-t
04:19:42 * oerjan is tellypathetic
04:19:57 <kalise> -ic-na
04:20:13 <Sgeo> Google will now know exactly where I am during school hours :/
04:20:26 <oerjan> now you are just m--s--g with me
04:20:59 <kalise> fa-r-t-
04:21:39 * oerjan swats kalise -----###
04:21:44 <oerjan> DON'T CALL ME THAT
04:40:57 <ais523> oh well, it had to be done eventually: http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220080270152%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20080270152&RS=DN/20080270152
04:41:27 <ais523> a patent application on the process of suing somebody for damages over a patent
04:41:52 <pikhq> ais523: Not yet a patent though.
04:42:02 <ais523> I can't tell from that page whether it was granted or not
04:42:40 <pikhq> It would have a patent number if it were.
04:42:54 <pikhq> It seems to have not been summarily rejected.
04:42:58 <pikhq> Which is itself troublesome.
04:43:22 <kalise> ais523: I am currently conducting some sort of review of KDE SC 4.5.
04:43:38 <kalise> ("Software Collection", the fashionable new name for what we used to call KDE.)
04:43:56 <Sgeo> BRB
04:44:03 <Sgeo> Also, Google owns my soul
04:44:30 <kalise> ais523: Konqueror uses smooth scrolling by default, which is insanely frustrating.
04:44:53 <pikhq> Smooth scrolling must die.
04:44:54 <ais523> if smooth scrolling is fast enough, it's OK I suppose
04:45:14 <ais523> is it the sort where you move the mouse wheel and half a second later the page finishes scrolling?
04:45:18 <ais523> that's an abomination
04:45:34 <kalise> ais523: yes
04:45:43 <kalise> except when it mysteriously gives up
04:45:58 <kalise> and just scrolls normally
04:45:59 <kalise> like right now
04:46:02 <kalise> brb
04:46:03 -!- kalise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:46:29 -!- kalise has joined.
04:46:36 <kalise> "Starting Akonadi server..."
04:46:38 <kalise> Please don't.
04:46:43 <ais523> ugh Akonadi
04:46:53 <ais523> among other things, it crashed and claimed to have deleted all my IRC logs
04:47:03 <ais523> which was particularly ironic given that I eventually found them
04:47:38 <kalise> Ssh, the writers of Star Trek: Voyager will hear you!
04:47:50 <ais523> why does that matter?
04:47:55 <kalise> "Mwahaha! I have killed your entire crew!" "Noooo! But why are they standing right next to me on the bridge?"
04:48:01 <pikhq> They can produce bad ideas from anything.
04:48:02 <ais523> oh
04:48:04 <kalise> "They're figments of your imagination!" "NOOOOOOO! You win!"
04:48:10 <pikhq> They're even talented at it.
04:48:26 <kalise> pikhq: it would probably be a good idea if nobody ever talked, ever, just in case they heard
04:48:34 <ais523> meanwhile, ESR seems to be good at losing email
04:48:39 <kalise> "losing"
04:48:47 <ais523> he emailed me and asked for a copy of an email I'd sent him a few hours earlier
04:49:02 <kalise> it got caught in his Evil Idiotarian Liberal Moron filter
04:49:07 <kalise> (it filters 99.9% of email)
04:49:30 <ais523> also, Knuth's secretary emailed him (CCing me) answering a question with, effectively, "I've told you that at least twice already, but here's the answer again)
04:49:35 <ais523> kalise: no, he'd read the original
04:49:46 <ais523> and had forgotten something I'd written in it, so asked for another copy
04:49:54 <kalise> probably deletes the email he reads
04:50:01 <ais523> yes, that was my conclusion
04:50:32 <pikhq> Because kilobytes matter on terabyte drives.
04:50:50 <kalise> pikhq: i think it's an organisational thing used by people too stupid to create a Read folder
04:50:56 <ais523> folder?
04:51:01 <kalise> in their mail client
04:51:03 <kalise> ais523: wow, KDE Help Center requires htdig to create a search index
04:51:03 <ais523> what's wrong with the Read status in the email client?
04:51:07 <kalise> how awful
04:51:14 <ais523> what is htdig?
04:51:14 <kalise> ais523: I mean, "read, considered, done".
04:51:22 <kalise> htdig is an html thing
04:51:37 <kalise> tl;dr KDE's help search works by indexing the rendered, output HTML files
04:51:59 <Sgeo> o.O
04:52:03 <kalise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ht-//Dig
04:52:06 <ais523> that's not necessarily insane
04:52:12 <ais523> especially if they're stored as HTML in the first place
04:52:14 <kalise> well, ok, but it does suck for the end-user
04:52:35 <Sgeo> Rendered, not raw, so there should be nothing weird about searching for "html"
04:52:43 <kalise> Sgeo: what?
04:52:54 <Sgeo> Erm
04:53:00 <kalise> "This configuration section is already opened in Konqueror"
04:53:03 <kalise> no it isn't, I closed that window
04:53:07 <kalise> stupid locking thing
04:53:16 <kalise> oh, it's right
04:53:25 <ais523> meanwhile, Paul Allen (the less famous founder of Microsoft) has gone and sued most of the major tech companies in existence, except Microsoft
04:53:33 <ais523> one of the infringed patents is about using a browser to view images
04:53:50 <kalise> heh
04:53:56 <ais523> hmm, actually, data in general, but images and videos in particular
04:54:22 <Sgeo> I've seen speculation that what he wants to do is to get people to realize the absurdity of software patents
04:54:24 <pikhq> I vote we sue him for hurting my faith in humanity.
04:54:53 <ais523> Sgeo: it'd be a little expensive for that, wouldn't it?
04:55:04 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if Florian Muller's turned up yet, and what side he's on?
04:55:18 <pikhq> ais523: He's a billionare.
04:55:20 <kalise> a microsoft founder is actually a benevolent vigilante who throws away his millions for a good cause
04:55:21 <ais523> apparently he hasn't
04:55:21 <kalise> hahahaha
04:55:26 <kalise> Sgeo you are great
04:55:27 <pikhq> He could wipe his ass with $100 bills.
04:55:43 <ais523> kalise: the good cause might be a side-effect
04:56:04 <ais523> incidentally, someone noticed that he seems to be avoiding suing companies based in Seattle
04:56:07 <kalise> of what, more money?
04:56:10 <ais523> whether that's a coincidence or not, who can say
04:56:17 <ais523> kalise: well, software patents do screw up the economy
04:56:22 <ais523> say he wants to make a tech startup
04:56:29 <ais523> he could do worse than eliminating software patents first
04:56:39 <kalise> bit of a bold aim
04:57:27 <kalise> Konqueror bug: it uses KHTML
04:57:31 <ais523> kalise: any opinions on why Intel bought McAfee, btw?
04:57:37 <ais523> kalise: I thought it was being ported to Webkit?
04:57:46 <kalise> ais523: "I need a virus scanner; buy McAfee for me."
04:57:49 <pikhq> kalise: Actually, it now uses QtWebkit.
04:57:51 <kalise> yes, it is
04:57:54 <kalise> pikhq: nope
04:57:56 <ais523> kalise: I don't believe that theory
04:57:57 <kalise> KDE SC 4.5, opened Konqueror
04:57:59 <kalise> KHTML
04:58:04 <pikhq> Fuck that shit.
04:58:14 <kalise> View -> View Mode -> (*) KHTML
04:58:14 <ais523> Intel would surely notice if they bought a massive company by accident
04:58:25 <kalise> ais523: well, it's utterly nonsensical, so I'm sticking to that theory
04:58:26 <ais523> or even a medium-sized one
04:59:06 <ais523> kalise: Ars Technica's theory, which is the only one that even makes remote sense, is that they want to move into the security software business (combined with security hardware on their chips)
04:59:15 <ais523> and bought a company in a vaguely related area which already had market share
04:59:32 <kalise> new theory: McAfee make a shit ton of money
04:59:36 <kalise> Intel want a shit ton of money
04:59:47 <kalise> Intel buy McAfee to accrue shit tons of money in the future
05:00:01 <kalise> any flaws with this one?
05:00:12 <ais523> my parents dismissed that one
05:00:26 <ais523> on the basis that investment banks would have done it first if it was purely based on accounting reasons
05:00:58 <ais523> Intel are not likely going around looking for undervalued companies to buy as an investment
05:01:11 <ais523> sure, it'd be useful for them, but companies that specialise in that are likely to get there first
05:01:34 <kalise> yes, but it's a well-known fact that buying McAfee will get you a ton of money in the long-term
05:01:39 <kalise> Intel are in a vaguely related sector
05:01:44 <kalise> so it makes sense that they'd look for companies to buy up
05:01:52 <kalise> in that sector
05:02:03 <kalise> no?
05:02:13 <ais523> perhaps
05:02:16 <kalise> i'd say intel got mcafee quite cheap
05:02:39 <ais523> they do have the advantage that they could plausibly act so as to aid mcafee
05:03:06 <ais523> also, my faith in #esoteric has been restored by nobody yet suggesting hardware antivirus
05:03:25 <kalise> wait, why would that /restore/ your faith in our esotericiness?
05:03:53 <ais523> no, it restores my faith in humanity
05:03:56 <ais523> but only a small subset of it
05:04:06 <ais523> so I should say the #esoteric community
05:04:07 <kalise> but our point is to be basically inhumane
05:04:08 <ais523> rather than the channel itself
05:04:27 <ais523> nah, most esolangs are not morally objectionable
05:04:35 <kalise> hardware antivirus is?
05:04:47 <kalise> also, what esolangs /are/ morally objectionable?
05:04:52 <ais523> no, it's just a really realy bad idea
05:04:56 <ais523> *really
05:05:23 <kalise> DUM! dum dam dum dum!
05:05:39 <kalise> you get a cookie if that played correctly in your head, first time
05:07:52 <pikhq> kalise: Ook.
05:08:00 <kalise> ook
05:08:01 <pikhq> kalise: YOU TORTURE MONKEYS TO MAKE THE OOKS.
05:08:14 <kalise> ah so that's why the language is interesting
05:10:12 <ais523> anyway, the reconstructed C-INTERCAL repo is at http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal
05:10:35 <kalise> "Eric S. Raymond
05:10:36 <kalise> ais523"
05:10:43 <kalise> How can you shame yourself with such juxtaposition?
05:10:47 <ais523> those are our gitorious usernames
05:11:06 <kalise> http://gitorious.org/cyclexa/mainline
05:11:09 <ais523> and I don't see why you can't work with someone on an unrelated task even if you disagree with their philosophies
05:11:29 <kalise> It's like, uh, working with Hitler!
05:11:33 <kalise> Or something!
05:12:10 <Sgeo> What's wrong with ESR?
05:12:12 <ais523> you just compared ESR to Hitler?
05:12:18 <ais523> that's illegal in Germany, among other things
05:12:20 <kalise> IN A MANNER
05:12:30 <kalise> Yes, well, lots of things are illegal in Germany.
05:12:36 <kalise> Sgeo: enough
05:12:40 <ais523> and many of them should be elsewhere too
05:12:43 <ais523> although probably not /that/ one
05:13:09 <pikhq> kalise: You know who else made things illegal?
05:13:11 <pikhq> HITLER
05:13:14 <kalise> "Genocide is illegal in Germany!" "Yes, well, lots of things are illegal in Germany."
05:13:21 <kalise> "Rape is illegal in Germany!" "Yes, well, lots of things are illegal in Germany."
05:13:28 <kalise> This is a defence that works in many situations.
05:13:35 <ais523> it's a pretty bad defense
05:13:45 <kalise> But a GOOD one!
05:14:05 <ais523> is "a but not a" inherently false?
05:15:01 <kalise> Not if you believe the dialetheists!
05:15:02 <Sgeo> Is "but" a logical ... operator thingy?
05:15:11 <kalise> but not = and not, pretty much
05:15:56 * ais523 vaguely wonders what the value of ( = ) is
05:16:01 <Sgeo> My toe is painfully itchy :(
05:16:16 <Sgeo> </tmi>
05:16:41 <kalise> ais523: >_<
05:16:45 <ais523> Gnome calculator says "Malformed expression"
05:16:55 <ais523> also, makes a strange clicking noise whenever you press or release Shift
05:16:58 <kalise> *gcalctool
05:17:00 <kalise> haha
05:17:16 * Sgeo goes insane
05:17:18 <ais523> it both a) makes logical sense, and b) is annoying
05:17:53 <kalise> hey, the "using alphabetised lists to verbosely restate simple statements for dramatic effect" patent belongs to ME!
05:18:20 <Sgeo> a) My toe b) is itchy
05:18:26 * oerjan suggests putting on some lotion
05:18:52 <kalise> My toe is (a) a toe, and (b) itchy.
05:19:15 <oerjan> (a) prior (b) art
05:20:48 <kalise> Goodnight.
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05:26:51 <Sgeo> Obviously, I should ask in here next time I have a medical issue
05:28:52 <oerjan> trust me, i'm a doctor
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05:29:09 <pikhq> ZOIDBERG!
05:29:38 <Sgeo> http://irc.peeron.com/xkcd/bucket/literal_irc%20medical%20advice.txt
05:30:43 <ais523> pikhq: context?
05:31:33 <Sgeo> ais523, on Futurama, Zoidberg is a "doctor" who doesn't know the first thing about human anatomy
05:31:53 <ais523> ah, I assumed it was a Final Fantasy reference
05:32:34 <pikhq> ais523: You should watch Futurama.
05:32:53 <ais523> I have watched bits, when I noticed it was on
05:33:01 <ais523> but I don't really track things like the individual characters
05:33:22 <pikhq> Watch a few episodes, it'll be easy.
05:33:38 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOwX0qGhdlg
05:34:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwQF9g6EjPw&feature=related
05:46:38 <Sgeo> "The autopsy revealed that the patient was asleep."
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05:47:07 * Sgeo does an autopsy on Gregor-L
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05:47:23 <Gregor> My internet connection left my computer.
06:22:22 <Vorpal> <ais523> I'm even less like AnMaster than you are in that respect <-- XD
06:22:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, ouch, what is/was the cause?
06:23:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, still, temporary using phone for tethering is a slow but not too expensive solution
06:23:27 <Vorpal> (at least with my dataplan)
06:24:29 <Vorpal> assuming it has left you completely
06:24:36 <Vorpal> instead of just a specific computer
06:24:45 <Vorpal> (in the latter case, even more ouch)
06:25:01 <Vorpal> bbl
06:25:01 <Gregor> Vorpal: I was referring to taking my phone away from the computer :P
06:26:52 * Sgeo isn't allowed to tether
06:38:39 <Gregor> Define "allowed"
06:38:44 <Gregor> I'm not "allowed" to tether.
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06:40:02 <Gregor> Also, I have gcc on my phone now >: )
06:40:12 <Gregor> I think I should install lighttpd on it next :P
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07:03:00 <Sgeo> My dad wants me to choose between eReader and netbook I can bring to school
07:03:09 <Sgeo> I don't think netbooks can really run IDEs that well
07:03:34 <Sgeo> I mean, the class I need it for is Perl, and just ssh really, so for this semester it's ok, but...
07:04:38 <Sgeo> Also, I still want that infinite notepad paper that the eReader promises
07:11:06 <Gregor> What eReader?
07:11:22 <Gregor> If you want infinite notepad paper, go with something more like ... notepad paper.
07:11:43 <pikhq> Also: IDE? You mean an editor and a shell?
07:12:19 <Gregor> pikhq: Also a compiler, and maybe make :P
07:12:39 <Gregor> Anyway, if those are your only options, then clearly the netbook.
07:12:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Okay, fine.
07:12:48 <pikhq> Sgeo: Also: IDE? You mean ssh?
07:13:11 * pikhq goes to listen to some Hitchhiker's Guide, then bed.
07:20:15 <Sgeo> pikhq, as in, Visual Studio
07:20:30 <Sgeo> Or something more OSS like Code::Blocks
07:26:06 <Sgeo> If I get the eReader, I would have to bring my heavy laptop to school
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08:17:46 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, fungot fungot
08:17:46 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: being a man... it's not here... better get some rest tonight. let's do our best, but... i can't stop anymore.
08:48:15 <Vorpal> ^style
08:48:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
08:48:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, ah I see
08:49:02 <Vorpal> <Gregor> I'm not "allowed" to tether. <-- I'm allowed to, but the carrier warns that "it won't work with an iphone, nothing we can do about that"
08:49:22 <Vorpal> and there is no way I would ever consider getting an iphone
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08:50:12 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why a netbook btw?
08:50:37 <Sgeo> Well, are there small laptops roughly as light as netbooks? Are they as cheap?
08:50:47 <Sgeo> If so, I'll try to convince my dad
08:50:51 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I use a laptop, 15". Large enough to use for extended periods while small enough for me to carry in a non-oversized backpack
08:51:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, *my* laptop isn't cheap. It is a thinkpad. But I'm pretty sure a dell of the same screen size and similar cpu would be way cheaper
08:51:28 <Vorpal> of course it wouldn't last as long
08:51:55 <Vorpal> and would lack features like acceleration sensor to move harddrive head over the discs and so on
08:52:06 <Vorpal> and would have a non-matte monitor
08:52:14 <Vorpal> not sure if you consider that a problem
08:52:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo, still it would probably run visual studio quite well
08:52:32 <Vorpal> and there are small ones, 13" and such iirc
08:52:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, iirc alise and ais523 both have some "netbook sized, laptop performance" computers
08:53:14 <Vorpal> Toshiba iirc, could be wrong though
08:53:37 <Sgeo> Any advantages to a netbook over a netbook-sized laptop?
08:53:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but using visual studio on a 12" would probably not be a very pleasant experience
08:53:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, maybe battery life, not sure.
08:54:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, and that netbooks probably still come with xp instead of vista or 7. Though that is easy to fix. If nothing else most universities seem to provide MSDNAA to compsci students these days
08:55:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo, oh and with a laptop you can probably run windows in virtualbox with reasonable performance. I can recommend the 64-bit xp pro as being especially fast under virualbox for me
08:55:53 <Vorpal> haven't tried visual studio though, never really needed it
08:56:25 * Sgeo does need to sleep
08:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, surely it's about 5 in the States?
08:57:24 <Sgeo> 4
08:57:35 <Sgeo> I should have been asleep a while ago
08:58:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the C programming teacher showed visual studio running in some xp under virtualbox on his netbook. He ran linux as the native OS, saw it when he was hooking up the projector. His window manager was twm
08:58:44 <Vorpal> never really seen anyone else use that for ages
08:59:25 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't he just use an IDE that runs under Linux if that's.... Oh. Idiot students
08:59:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo, he showed emacs too :P
08:59:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but since the lab computers have xp he needed to show how it worked there
08:59:58 <Sgeo> Ok, putting the computer down and sleeping
09:00:05 <Vorpal> cya
09:01:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I've toyed with twm...
09:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Mainly because it's the only proper X window manager on OS X, though.
09:10:13 <Vorpal> heh
09:10:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, X on OS X doesn't look like it is using twm iirc?
09:10:44 <Vorpal> rather window bars look like native OS X iirc
09:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesnt by default.
09:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> *doesn't
09:11:15 <Phantom_Hoover> But it does have twm installed.
09:12:17 <Vorpal> mhm
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09:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, this Stig thing is completely insane...
09:48:42 <Phantom_Hoover> What happened to thutubot, BtW?
09:57:50 <coppro> Stig?
09:58:07 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, the test driver on a British motoring show.
09:58:34 <Phantom_Hoover> He always wears overalls and a helmet, and his identity is a closely guarded secret.
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09:58:50 <coppro> ah
09:58:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But now he wants to publish an autobiography, and the BBC are Very Annoyed at this.
10:06:13 <coppro> hah
10:06:45 <Phantom_Hoover> It is probably the most ridiculous thing ever.
10:06:49 <coppro> I suppose anonymous publishing is out of the question
10:11:38 <fizzie> Ooh, I know the show; I think some Finnish channel shows it, and my wife's brothers watch it. We were visiting one day and saw this episode where they "revealed" his identity to be Schumacher.
10:11:54 <fizzie> No recollection of the name though.
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10:24:28 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, yeah, but that's widely accepted as being a joke.
10:26:43 <fizzie> Yes, thus "revealed".
10:28:39 <fizzie> "The original Stig actor, Perry McCarthy revealed his identity in his autobiography[2][3] in 2002. In 2003 his character, the 'Black Stig', was killed off, and replaced with the 'White Stig'." Heh; if he goes through with the book, it seems he should be careful of "accidents".
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11:05:53 <Vorpal> checking for gcc... gcc
11:05:53 <Vorpal> checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... no
11:05:53 <Vorpal> checking whether gcc accepts -g... no
11:05:53 <Vorpal> checking for gcc option to accept ISO C89... unsupported
11:05:54 <Vorpal> hm
11:05:58 <Vorpal> that looks strange
11:06:24 <Vorpal> and then it complain about stdlib.h not exisiting, yet when I try out the commands that it reports fails in config.log manually... everything works
11:06:25 <Vorpal> wtf
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11:46:47 <Vorpal> hm got it to compile in the end
11:46:51 <Vorpal> From the debug output of a JIT compiler for 68k emulation: Max CPUID level=10 Processor is GenuineIntel [PentiumPro]
11:46:51 <Vorpal> This is a bit strange since it is running on a core 2 duo and JITing to x86_64 code.
11:46:51 <Vorpal> Works fine though as far as I can tell...
11:47:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc you are the guy most likely to have a clue about what might cause that
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11:48:27 <Vorpal> it seems to have x86-64 as an alternative
11:48:37 <Vorpal> hm, maybe it only checks for AMD + x86-64 or such
12:12:41 <fizzie> I think you'll need to look at the sources if you are curious enough. The CPUID model/family bits are a real mess, though.
12:15:16 <fizzie> "Max CPUID level=10" probably refers to the value returned by function 0, which returns the vendor-ID ("GenuineIntel" if it's a core 2) and the largest supported standard cpuid function; 10 sounds a reasonable value there.
12:19:42 <fizzie> It probably says "PentiumPro" because PPro is the first CPU to return family=6, which is what pentiums II, III, M, and Core/Core2/Core i7, and Atom, return too. (P4 returns family=15, for some unclear reason.)
12:20:05 <fizzie> They can be separated from each other by the "model" number, but maybe it doesn't look at that.
12:20:30 <Vorpal> hm
12:20:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed it seems to not look at the model
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12:27:17 <Vorpal> heh... I never seen System 7 boot in less than a second before. Ubuntu didn't compile the package with JIT support, but since they dropped it in lucid I had to compile it myself anyway, and thus enabled JIT. Even without JIT it boots way faster than any real mac that came with system 7. But with the JIT on and the "lazy invalidation" option it boots so fast I can only see a flicker after the happy mac s
12:27:17 <Vorpal> creen.
12:27:26 <Vorpal> and even the happy mac one is unusually fast
12:28:40 <fizzie> "Intel® Processor Identification and the CPUID Instruction" application note has the CPUID family/model table, and it's about four pages with numerous footnotes, and that's only Intel's own chips.
12:29:30 <fizzie> "To differentiate between the Pentium III processor, model 7 and the Pentium III Xeon processor, model 7, software should check the cache descriptor values through executing CPUID instruction with EAX = 2. If 1M or 2M L2 cache size is reported, the processor is the Pentium III Xeon processor otherwise it is a Pentium III processor or a Pentium III Xeon processor with 512-KB L2 cache size."
12:30:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, you said i7 returns family 6 too, but what about i5?
12:30:20 <fizzie> Probably that, too, but the table was dated 2009, and I don't think they had introduced i3/i5 at that time.
12:30:32 <Vorpal> ah
12:30:39 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, what style are you on at the moment?
12:30:39 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: tonight's enchantment night! all you like? oh, by the train. hoo-boy... all clear' function.
12:30:49 <Phantom_Hoover> FFVII, then.
12:31:09 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have some good ideas for new styles?
12:31:09 <fungot> fizzie: this is my special gas chamber. take care of you to stop that stupid heidegger ever use it right now.
12:33:35 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I did have one, but I've forgotten it.
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12:43:08 <Vorpal> ^style
12:43:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7* fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
12:43:12 <Vorpal> hm yes
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14:22:50 <Vorpal> hm anyone has any experience with SDL here?
14:23:16 <Vorpal> I'm wondering how to make it not do X11 stuff async so I can get a meaningful backtrace for this X11 error...
14:24:54 <fizzie> I doubt you can make the X11 video-driver do that without any code changes.
14:25:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can do it for gtk stuff by just passing --sync iirc
14:25:15 <Vorpal> I'm looking for something similar for sdl
14:25:28 <fizzie> It takes some SDL_VIDEO_X11_FOO environment-variable options, but there doesn't seem to be anything useful there.
14:26:10 <fizzie> The list is at http://sdl.beuc.net/sdl.wiki/SDL_envvars but it doesn't seem very useful.
14:27:46 <fizzie> SDL_DEBUG has sometimes been useful for debugging, but probably not for a delayed X11 error.
14:28:54 <Vorpal> strange but I get different errors at different points
14:28:55 <Vorpal> hm
14:29:27 <Vorpal> hm this one is new... "Fatal IO error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server :0.0."
14:29:57 <Vorpal> and how strange.... the backtrace winds through both SDL and gdk...
14:30:13 <Vorpal> hm it supports both optionally so I guess this makes it even trickier
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14:30:35 <Vorpal> but at least this last one seems sensibly related to what I was doing at the time of the crash (moving mouse)
14:30:48 <Vorpal> SDL_CreateCursor is in the backtrace
14:31:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw it seems lucid has messed up the debugging symbol repos, missing for packages in lucid-updates
14:31:39 <Vorpal> I guess I have to downgrade to lucid for those packages to make the debugging symbols work...
14:49:37 <fizzie> For some completely inexplicable reason, I wrote myself a private pastebin, even though the improvements gained over something like sprunge.us are pretty minor. (Works as a tinyurl-style link-shortener, can handle non-text/plain stuff too, able to specify meaningful names for pastes, and update/delete existing ones.)
14:53:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty much only works for only one user pasting
14:53:37 <fizzie> Sure, but like I said, it's private.
14:53:39 <Vorpal> considering the meaningful name bit
14:54:17 <fizzie> Here's a random kernel source file: http://p.zem.fi/test -- and through the highlighting eggine, http://p.zem.fi/test.c
14:54:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm it seems that SDL_DEBUG makes it do sync stuff more often, though not all the time
14:54:27 <Vorpal> how strange
14:54:35 <Vorpal> and yes whatever it is, it is definitely cursor related
14:56:17 <fizzie> #ifdef X11_DEBUG
14:56:17 <fizzie> XSynchronize(SDL_Display, True);
14:56:17 <fizzie> #endif
14:56:21 <fizzie> (SDL_X11video.c)
14:56:31 <fizzie> Not a runtime option, of course. :p
15:00:21 <Vorpal> gah
15:00:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, could I fake that from the program source you think?
15:00:47 <Vorpal> as in, do I have access to call it where needed
15:02:07 <fizzie> I think so, yes, though you might need to do some very nonstandard fiddling to get the SDL_Display value.
15:02:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah I see
15:03:33 <fizzie> SDL_Display is a macro for this->hidden->X11_Display, and 'this' is a SDL_VideoDevice * from somewhere.
15:04:09 <Vorpal> static int X11_VideoInit(_THIS, SDL_PixelFormat *vformat)
15:04:11 <Vorpal> wtf is that
15:04:19 <Vorpal> _THIS ?
15:04:29 <fizzie> _THIS is "SDL_VideoDevice *this".
15:04:39 <fizzie> So that the code inside can use "this->foo".
15:05:01 <Vorpal> well then I just need to step a few times and do call XSynchronize(whatever, 1)
15:05:01 <Vorpal> :D
15:05:49 <fizzie> Anyway, you can get the Display* from a public SDL function, too: SDL_GetWMInfo fills a SDL_SysWMinfo structure for you, and then you have (assuming SDL_SysWMInfo i) i.info.x11.display that's a Display*.
15:07:41 <Vorpal> int (*XSynchronize(Display *display, Bool onoff))();
15:07:42 <Vorpal> hm
15:07:50 <Vorpal> that doesn't look quite right
15:08:00 <Vorpal> why is there function pointer syntax there in it
15:08:09 <Vorpal> (gdb) call XSynchronize(this->hidden->X11_Display, 1)
15:08:09 <Vorpal> $8 = (int (*)(Display *)) 0
15:08:13 <Vorpal> that looks suspect too
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15:08:42 <fizzie> It returns a function.
15:08:46 <Vorpal> hm right
15:08:56 <fizzie> The one set by XSetAfterFunction.
15:09:06 <alise> wut
15:09:13 <Vorpal> well it returned a NULL function pointer
15:09:33 <fizzie> I don't think that matters much.
15:09:43 <fizzie> It should still toggle the synchronization thing on.
15:10:06 <Vorpal> aaah way more useful error
15:10:19 <Vorpal> it was cursor related still but not the same call
15:10:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, now to try to decode this: http://sprunge.us/gTJJ
15:10:49 <Vorpal> sigh
15:10:53 <alise> Wow, I'm actually getting used to freetype's rendering-sans-hinting.
15:11:09 <alise> Actually all usage of freetype is akin to getting used to something.
15:11:19 <alise> Usually a stupid thing.
15:11:41 <fizzie> It tries to FreeCursor something that hasn't been Cursored, is my guess.
15:12:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, well... that's strange. I can't trace it back very far into the application due to JITing. Still hm... Actually that stack trace looks VERY strange
15:13:01 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/EPKV
15:13:04 <Vorpal> strange even for JITing
15:14:00 <Vorpal> ../SDL/video_sdl.cpp is in the app, I guess that is the best place to continue looking now
15:14:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw this things require at least -O1 to compile. Not sure why exactly but some JIT auto-code-poke tools seems to want -O1 or higher
15:14:46 <Phantom_Hoover> clog, do you even do anything other than log?
15:15:23 <fizzie> He also clogs.
15:15:43 <fizzie> (The pipes.)
15:16:10 <Vorpal> err I wonder... I have no idea if it is allowed but I think it frees a cursor without hiding it first
15:16:11 <Vorpal> hm...
15:17:07 <fizzie> I don't think that should be a crashy problem, but who knows.
15:17:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, other things making this fun to debug, this thing does more mad things with mmap than jitfunge (it requires being able to map at 0x0) and also more segv stuff than it. (sigsegv is somehow related to video refreshing... I haven't probed too much into that area)
15:19:20 <fizzie> Incidentally, if you want to try a trivial thing, try out "SDL_VIDEO_X11_DGAMOUSE=1 ./app"; it should use a bit different mouserying thing then.
15:19:39 <fizzie> My guess is an app bug, still, but.
15:21:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
15:21:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does DGAMOUSE do?
15:21:56 <Vorpal> and can it still set custom bitmaps for the cursor?
15:23:02 <alise> what are we doing here?
15:24:02 <fizzie> Presumably it uses the DGA extension's mouse thing. Though I doubt it actually affects the cursor parts at all.
15:24:24 <fizzie> Vorpal's setting up some sort of JIT'ing 68k emulator which keeps crashing, if I've understood right.
15:24:30 <alise> "Introducing... Web Workers *BETA* / combining the sanity of threads with the robustness of web development / Smiling Cartoon Guy: What could possibly go wrong? / TODO: - Find out what could possibly go wrong"
15:25:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, well no, ppc. I'm trying to get sheepshaver to work with SDL since SDL makes one of the programs I want to emulate work properly (as opposed to the plain X alternative)
15:26:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, the 68k was separate (though sheepshaver and basiliskII share quite a bit of code)
15:27:15 <fizzie> Oh, okay. Well, nevertheless.
15:27:30 <alise> SheepShaver is incredibly crashy.
15:28:38 <alise> 00:50:37 <Sgeo> Well, are there small laptops roughly as light as netbooks? Are they as cheap?
15:28:40 <Vorpal> alise, yes but there is no better alternative
15:28:50 <alise> i have an extremely light 13" laptop that i use for everything
15:28:56 <alise> it cost a bit less than £500.
15:29:09 <alise> it isn't sold any more. there's a new model out. it is probably just as good.
15:29:13 <Vorpal> sheepshaver is the only classic mac PPC emulator I know of
15:29:38 <alise> 00:53:37 <Sgeo> Any advantages to a netbook over a netbook-sized laptop? ;; a bit longer battery life, slightly smaller (but not really lighter in any real sense)
15:29:43 <alise> I'd always recommend the latter.
15:30:00 <Vorpal> alise, does he log read?
15:30:12 <alise> maybe not but i can ping him next time he's online
15:30:18 <Vorpal> right
15:30:36 <alise> 01:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Mainly because it's the only proper X window manager on OS X, though.
15:30:40 <alise> You can install ones, you know.
15:30:46 <fizzie> Mac-on-Linux works well (in my limited testing), but of course is not much of a help unless you have a PPC linux system handy.
15:30:58 <alise> 01:58:07 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro, the test driver on a British motoring show.
15:31:04 <alise> Top Gear is famous enough to reference by name.
15:31:53 <alise> 02:11:38 <fizzie> Ooh, I know the show; I think some Finnish channel shows it, and my wife's brothers watch it. We were visiting one day and saw this episode where they "revealed" his identity to be Schumacher.
15:31:56 <alise> Yes, that is Top Gear.
15:33:44 <alise> Vorpal: so are you patching the program?
15:33:54 <alise> if so, please publish a tarball or a .patch
15:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I couldn't be bothered to install WMs on OS X.
15:37:19 <fizzie> I once installed evilwm on OS X; what an absurd combination.
15:37:26 <alise> macports makes it quite easy. although the cool kids use homebrew these days
15:37:56 <alise> fizzie: I remember my plight to get KDE 3 compiling with native OS X Qt.
15:37:56 <fizzie> (evilwm's in macports, too.)
15:38:01 <alise> God bless me for attempting that.
15:38:09 <alise> Someone else already managed it; I never could, though.
15:38:19 <alise> The whole goal was running Amarok on OS X without that pesky X11 thing.
15:38:38 <alise> This was before KDE 4 made it all officially supported and whatnot.
15:40:06 <alise> [[David Sansome and John McGuire have been working on a project, which aims to port Amarok 1.4 to Qt4 and rewrite it to make full use of Qt4 features. The project has been christened as “clementine-player”.]]
15:40:07 <alise> sweet!
15:40:46 <alise> http://www.clementine-player.org/screenshots/clementine-0.4-2.png Who would have thought that Amark would look native on Windows?
15:44:21 <Vorpal> alise, I will patch the program if I figure out how to fix it
15:44:35 <Vorpal> my first guess turned out to be wrong
15:44:47 <Vorpal> and no I have no clue why it acts like this
15:47:18 <alise> Would the same issue happen with BasiliskII?
15:47:33 <alise> I'd try myself but I don't want to put in so much effort that still neglects System Software 6.
15:48:52 <Vorpal> alise, no it doesn't seem to use the same code path for the cursor handling
15:49:06 <Vorpal> no clue why that is
15:49:07 <alise> So BasiliskII works, then?
15:49:21 <Vorpal> alise, for this, it is quite easy to make it crash as well
15:49:36 <Vorpal> just not quite as easy as with sheepshaver
15:50:30 <Vorpal> alise, and atm I'm suspecting memory corruption, since everything seems to be done correctly as far as I can tell... And valgrind on sheepshaver would not work.
15:50:46 <alise> valkyrie grind
15:51:49 <Vorpal> alise, guess what VOSF stands for in the preprocessor define ENABLE_VOSF
15:51:56 <alise> [[You can then try to compile the program with
15:51:56 <alise> $ cd src/Unix
15:51:57 <alise> $ ./autogen.sh
15:51:57 <alise> $ make
15:51:57 <alise> under Linux, or
15:51:57 <alise> $ cd src/BeOS
15:51:59 <alise> $ make
15:52:01 <alise> under BeOS.]]
15:52:05 <alise> Vorpal: Vandalise Open Source Foundation
15:52:13 <Vorpal> alise, Video On SegFault
15:52:31 <alise> http://homepage3.nifty.com/toshi3/emu/sheepshaver1.html why does this say sheepshaver for x86
15:52:35 <Vorpal> alise, no I have no idea what exactly it does but it sure scares me
15:52:40 <Vorpal> hm?
15:52:50 <alise> videos your reaction and uploads it to youtube
15:52:55 <Vorpal> alise, sheepshaver works on linux/ppc too iirc
15:53:04 <alise> Some random links
15:53:05 <alise> Basilisk II
15:53:05 <alise> SheepShaver for x86 (日本語) --Sheepshaver home page
15:53:07 <alise> *SheepShaver
15:53:12 <alise> i'll just use the emaculation source
15:53:12 <Vorpal> alise, use the CVS version
15:53:14 <alise> not the official one
15:53:18 <Vorpal> alise, they are less buggy
15:53:19 <Vorpal> by far
15:53:26 <Vorpal> as in, actually compiles
15:53:26 <alise> than the emaculation sources?
15:53:41 <Vorpal> um
15:53:58 <Vorpal> alise, I used cvs from http://www.cebix.net/
15:54:01 <alise> hmm, not sure if they've actually done any sourec work
15:54:15 <alise> Vorpal: i'm talking about http://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/sheepshaver which is where most people get their sheepshaver fix
15:54:16 <Vorpal> alise, there are actually a few random recent commits
15:54:20 <Vorpal> like adding missing include
15:54:21 <Vorpal> and such
15:54:29 <alise> http://www.emaculation.com/lib/exe/detail.php/sheep1.png?id=sheepshaver Graphing Calculator fuck yeah!!!!!!!!!
15:54:42 <alise> Optional dependencies for clementine
15:54:43 <alise> gstreamer0.10-base-plugins: for more open formats
15:54:43 <alise> gstreamer0.10-good-plugins: still free
15:54:43 <alise> gstreamer0.10-ugly-plugins: damn if you really need those
15:54:50 <Vorpal> clementine?
15:54:59 <alise> Vorpal: a port of Amarok 1.4 to Qt 4
15:55:06 <alise> Amarok 1.4 = Amarok before they ruined it with the stupid 2 interface
15:55:13 <alise> well, also maintained and changed and stuff
15:55:16 <alise> but those are its origins
15:55:41 <Vorpal> alise, anyway sheepshaver runs as long as you use X11+esd instead of SDL for video and/or audio
15:55:45 <alise> http://www.clementine-player.org/screenshots/clementine-0.4-1.png on Linux
15:55:47 <alise> http://www.clementine-player.org/screenshots/clementine-0.4-2.png on Windows :P
15:55:56 <alise> Vorpal: esd? seriously?
15:56:07 <Vorpal> alise, well yes from configure options it seems to use that
15:56:19 <alise> god CVS is so crazy
15:56:20 <Vorpal> or wait
15:56:30 <Vorpal> maybe it uses esd with OSS fallback
15:56:32 <alise> "Can I run MacOS X applications under Windows with this?
15:56:32 <alise> No. Firstly, SheepShaver doesn't run under Windows. Secondly, MacOS X doesn't run under SheepShaver."
15:56:33 <Vorpal> that could explain it
15:56:45 <alise> s/^ //
15:56:50 <Vorpal> alise, indeed you need OS 8/9 for sheepshaver
15:56:57 <alise> it's just a funny answer :P
15:57:00 <Vorpal> right
15:57:21 <Vorpal> actually don't trust me on MacOS 8 working with it
15:57:23 <Vorpal> I haven't tried
15:57:28 <Vorpal> since I don't own a copy of that
15:57:35 <Vorpal> (which I do for OS 9)
15:57:41 <Vorpal> and
15:57:44 <Vorpal> very important
15:57:51 <Vorpal> you need 9.0.4, no later
15:58:08 <Vorpal> later ones use those "blue tasks" which sheepshaver can't hande
15:58:10 <Vorpal> handle*
15:58:17 <Vorpal> google blue tasks if you want to find out details
15:58:24 <Vorpal> they were.... strange
15:59:02 <alise> who cares about those versions
15:59:10 <Vorpal> alise, hm?
15:59:24 <alise> System Software 6, System Software/Mac OS 7, Mac OS 8.
15:59:27 <alise> Nothing else matters.
15:59:38 <Vorpal> alise, well I don't know how well 8 works with sheepshaver
15:59:46 <alise> so how do you configure the build?
15:59:47 <Vorpal> and as I said, I don't own a copy of 8
15:59:49 <alise> edit some header file?
15:59:54 <Vorpal> alise, sheepshaver or basilisk?
15:59:59 <alise> sheepshaver
16:00:22 <alise> System Software 6, while obviously the most usable and fastest release, does not really have much software support.
16:00:25 <Vorpal> alise, http://sheepshaver.cebix.net/ tells you
16:00:35 <alise> does not
16:00:38 <Vorpal> yes it does
16:00:39 <alise> only shows a stock compile process
16:00:40 <Vorpal> grep for autogen
16:00:48 <alise> yes
16:00:50 <alise> oh
16:00:50 <Vorpal> alise, ah, autogen invokes configure
16:00:51 <alise> right
16:00:55 <Vorpal> so just pass it --help
16:00:58 <Vorpal> then use normal configure
16:01:20 <Vorpal> alise, anyway you need a ROM image for this, which you can extract with basilisk from an update for PPC
16:01:20 <alise> Vorpal: try compiling it with clang >:)
16:01:27 <Vorpal> that is how I bootstrapped it :)
16:01:32 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, or, I could pirate one
16:01:33 <Vorpal> since the rom on my mac didn't work
16:01:34 <alise> *one.
16:01:57 <alise> i'm actually gonna compile this with clang
16:02:00 <Vorpal> alise, oh and basilisk cvs configure is currently broken
16:02:02 <alise> wish me luck
16:02:07 <Vorpal> alise, you need to edit configure.ac
16:02:18 <alise> i'll only be doing sheepshaver for now
16:02:21 <Vorpal> right
16:02:26 <Vorpal> that works somewhat out of box
16:02:34 <Vorpal> just remember to not enable sdl
16:02:40 <alise> system7today.com is so fun :)
16:02:51 <alise> "Foo? Yeah, System 7 can do that."
16:02:56 <Vorpal> alise, can sheepshaver run system 7?
16:03:02 <alise> yes
16:03:12 <Vorpal> well the ROM it needs is from OS 8 iirc
16:03:17 <alise> hmm
16:03:33 <alise> well you can do it with basilisk
16:03:35 <alise> using the older 7s
16:03:37 <alise> "And for Basilisk I recommend the Performa ROM (it makes System 7 boot"
16:03:44 <alise> 22 Aug 2010 ... SheepShaver for Windows is best used with Mac OS 8.6 to 9.0.4, but check below for notes about running System 7. ...
16:03:48 <alise> so yes
16:03:52 <Vorpal> alise, you need a rom for basilisk yes
16:03:54 <Vorpal> different one
16:04:19 <alise> huh, clang does not have an -On options?
16:04:23 <alise> *option
16:04:30 <Vorpal> um what?
16:04:36 <alise> -O1, -O2, etc.
16:04:37 <alise> oh, it does
16:04:38 <alise> up to -O4
16:04:40 <Vorpal> eh no idea
16:04:48 <alise> clang -pipe -O4 --analyze
16:04:56 <alise> oh, that's just a bug finder
16:04:59 <alise> just -pipe -O4 then
16:05:18 <alise> --enable-ppc-emulator use the selected PowerPC emulator default=auto
16:05:18 <Vorpal> alise, yeah it's a bug finder! It would probably go spare at sheepshaver
16:05:19 <alise> eh?
16:05:32 <Vorpal> alise, that is because it runs code natively on Linux/PPC
16:05:41 <Vorpal> alise, don't use that flag
16:05:46 <alise> so why would you use SDL instead of X11/esd?
16:05:47 <Vorpal> it will figure out you aren't on PPC
16:06:05 <alise> does it have a make uninstall?
16:06:19 <Vorpal> alise, well, until it crashes it makes one of the games I get nostalgic about work. the X11 one just gives a black screen in it
16:06:31 <Vorpal> anyway it crashes sooner or later with sdl even without running that game
16:06:41 <alise> [ehird@dinky Unix]$ CC=clang CFLAGS="-pipe -O4" ./autogen.sh
16:06:43 <alise> i'm wiiiild
16:06:46 <alise> configure: error: in `/home/ehird/bii/SheepShaver/src/Unix':
16:06:47 <alise> configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
16:06:49 <alise> i'm not wiiiiild
16:06:50 <Vorpal> alise, --prefix
16:06:53 <Vorpal> hm
16:06:59 <alise> Vorpal: if it has make uninstall i don't need prefix :)
16:07:01 <Vorpal> alise, I don't know why it can't
16:07:21 <alise> clang: error: 'x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu': unable to pass LLVM bit-code files to
16:07:21 <alise> linker
16:07:54 <Vorpal> alise, well it installs 4 files or such iirc, the binary, a man page, a keymap (need to be customised!) and finally some tun-iface script example
16:07:55 <alise> ah
16:07:56 <alise> -O4 breaks
16:08:00 <alise> how utterly bizarre
16:08:05 <alise> -O3 works
16:08:22 <alise> does --with-dgcc default to $CC?
16:08:23 <Vorpal> alise, I suspect your chance of success is close to zero with clang
16:08:29 <Vorpal> --with-dgcc ?
16:08:34 <alise> some configure option
16:08:38 <Vorpal> what does it do
16:08:40 <alise> AC_ARG_WITH(dgcc, [ --with-dgcc=COMPILER use C++ COMPILER to compi
16:08:41 <alise> le synthetic opcodes], [DYNGEN_CC=$withval])
16:09:03 <alise> USE_DYNGEN = @USE_DYNGEN@
16:09:03 <alise> DYNGENSRCS = @DYNGENSRCS@
16:09:03 <alise> DYNGEN_CC = @DYNGEN_CC@
16:09:03 <alise> DYNGEN_CFLAGS = @DYNGEN_CFLAGS@
16:09:05 <Vorpal> alise, oh right, with gcc at least, you need at least -O1 in CFLAGS
16:09:07 <alise> ...
16:09:14 <Vorpal> otherwise some compile time generation tool will segfault
16:09:23 <alise> [ehird@dinky Unix]$ CC=clang CFLAGS="-pipe -O3" ./autogen.sh
16:09:24 <alise> time for lols
16:09:33 <alise> wow configure is working
16:09:39 <Vorpal> you forgot CXXFLAGS I think
16:09:39 <alise> that's unbelievable
16:09:45 <Vorpal> it is mixed C/C++
16:09:51 <alise> thanks
16:10:10 <Vorpal> alise, I think it is possibly even more insane to use clang for the C++ code though
16:10:20 <alise> Configuration done. Now type "make".
16:10:34 * alise cracks knuckles
16:10:35 <alise> Time for action.
16:10:41 <alise> cc1plus: error: unrecognized command line option "-mdynamic-no-pic"
16:10:42 <alise> Woooo
16:10:48 <alise> g++ -I../kpx_cpu/include
16:10:50 <alise> Why, sir, why
16:10:50 <Vorpal> err
16:10:51 <alise> oh
16:10:53 <alise> CC isn't CXX
16:10:54 <alise> is it?
16:11:00 <Vorpal> configure checks if -mdynamic-no-pic is supported
16:11:03 <alise> what do i set for C++ compiler?
16:11:08 <Vorpal> alise, CC and CXX are separate yeah
16:11:13 <Vorpal> try ./configure --help
16:11:15 <Vorpal> to list vars
16:11:18 <Vorpal> remember to make distclean
16:11:20 <Vorpal> in between
16:11:26 <Vorpal> it breaks otherwise... sometimes
16:11:28 <alise> does clang Just Work if you pass it a c++ file?
16:11:45 <alise> just work as in just break :P
16:11:50 <alise> (because it sucks at C++)
16:11:51 <Vorpal> alise, I never tried
16:12:01 <alise> worth a try
16:12:16 <Vorpal> alise, do I look like a walking man-page/google/encyclopedia?
16:12:20 <alise> yes
16:12:27 <alise> well, ais523 looks like that to you
16:12:32 <alise> so i may as well return the favour
16:12:33 <Vorpal> hm
16:12:37 <alise> :P
16:12:41 <alise> /bin/sh: clang^CFLAGS=-pipe: command not found
16:12:47 <Vorpal> whaaat
16:12:47 <alise> [ehird@dinky Unix]$ CC=clang CXX=clang^CFLAGS="-pipe -O3" CXXFLAGS="-pipe -O3" ./autogen.sh
16:12:52 <alise> after copy-pasting from a line I ^C'd on
16:12:52 <Vorpal> well
16:12:53 <alise> hahaha
16:13:03 <alise> i think
16:13:08 <Vorpal> alise, why did ^C insert a literal one though
16:13:27 <alise> because that's how my terminal displays it?
16:13:29 <alise> or rather my shell
16:13:34 <alise> i think
16:13:37 <alise> if you do it mid-line
16:13:42 <alise> wow
16:13:45 <alise> clang is actually compiling this Vorpal
16:13:50 <alise> ../timer.cpp:342:32: warning: conversion specifies type 'unsigned long' but the
16:13:51 <alise> argument has type 'uint32' (aka 'unsigned int') [-Wformat]
16:13:51 <alise> printf("WARNING: InsTime(%08lx): Task re-inserted\n", tm);
16:13:51 <alise> ~~~~^ ~~
16:13:57 <Vorpal> alise, I doubt doubt it will work for a few files
16:14:01 <Vorpal> alise, some are pretty sane
16:14:04 <alise> sigsegv.cpp:2585:30: error: use of undeclared identifier
16:14:04 <alise> static bool handle_badaccess(SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1)
16:14:10 <alise> sigsegv.cpp:2490:41: note: instantiated from:
16:14:14 <alise> what the hell does that mean?
16:14:16 <Vorpal> alise, ah you need a patch from the karmic package for that I think
16:14:20 <Vorpal> let me pastebin it
16:14:21 <alise> Vorpal: got a link?
16:14:22 <alise> thanks
16:15:07 <Vorpal> alise, http://sprunge.us/JGEf http://sprunge.us/KGZG
16:15:12 <Vorpal> alise, probably need both
16:15:19 <Vorpal> alise, I applied before even trying to compile
16:15:36 <Vorpal> wait, not the True case one
16:15:41 <Vorpal> I think that one is fixed in cvs
16:15:42 <alise> ahh -O4 is link-time optimisation
16:16:09 <alise> wow
16:16:14 <alise> konqueror opens http://sprunge.us/KGZG syntax-highlighted as a diff
16:16:17 <alise> with code folding to the side
16:16:20 <alise> thanks to kate
16:16:23 <alise> haha
16:16:34 <Vorpal> alise, yes and?
16:16:42 <Vorpal> alise, it done that for ages
16:16:45 <Vorpal> even in 3.x
16:17:12 <alise> still, impressive that it autodetected the former
16:17:13 <alise> *format
16:17:23 <Vorpal> hm
16:18:34 <alise> error on the same file fun fun
16:18:38 <alise> sigsegv.cpp:2592:31: error: use of undeclared identifier
16:18:39 <alise> 'SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS'; did you mean 'SIGSEGV_INVALID_ADDRESS'?
16:18:39 <alise> SI.addr = (sigsegv_address_t)SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST;
16:18:39 <alise> ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
16:18:43 <alise> this is from the video on segfault thing I bet
16:18:57 <alise> Vorpal: but yeah, what now
16:19:03 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't get that one
16:19:08 <Vorpal> alise, so no clue
16:19:26 <alise> #define SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESSsip->si_addr
16:19:28 <Vorpal> alise, are you sure you applied the patch properly?
16:19:28 <alise> it's defined, so wut?
16:19:56 <alise> patch -p3 <foo.patch in Unix; it applied with some fuzziness but cleanly.
16:20:01 <Vorpal> p3?
16:20:08 <Vorpal> oh not in top dir?
16:20:10 <alise> first one that worked :)
16:20:11 <alise> yeah, in Unix
16:20:30 <Vorpal> patch --dry-run is awesome
16:20:45 <Vorpal> pity it isn't -n or something short
16:21:46 <alise> gah
16:21:50 <alise> sigsegv.cpp is so impossible
16:21:55 <alise> to read
16:22:08 <Vorpal> alise, I haven't needed to edit it so far apart from that patch
16:22:24 <alise> what system?
16:22:28 <alise> linux 64-bit right?
16:22:39 <Vorpal> linux x86-64, ubuntu lucid
16:23:02 <Vorpal> alise, and I think I only needed that patch for basiliskII, not for sheepshaver
16:23:05 <Vorpal> so hm
16:23:28 <alise> #ifdef HAVE_SIGSEGV_RECOVERY
16:23:28 <alise> static bool handle_badaccess(SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1)
16:23:29 <alise> #else
16:23:29 <alise> static bool handle_badaccess()
16:23:29 <alise> #endif
16:23:29 <alise> {
16:23:31 <alise> sigsegv_info_t SI;
16:23:33 <alise> SI.addr = (sigsegv_address_t)SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST;
16:23:35 <alise> problem located
16:23:46 <alise> surely this can't work if the SIGSEGV_FAULT_HANDLER_ARGLIST_1 isn't there
16:23:57 <alise> gah, i don't know
16:23:59 <Vorpal> hm?
16:24:01 <alise> i think it's misdetecting my system
16:24:02 <alise> somehow
16:24:05 <Vorpal> alise, I think you might be missing some dep
16:24:09 <alise> i am not
16:24:16 <alise> i can't find the bloody block of defines that define it for regular 64-bit linux
16:24:19 <alise> in sigsegv.cpp
16:24:35 <Vorpal> alise, this was in sigsegv of basilisk, not sheepshaver. Right?
16:24:41 <alise> aha
16:24:42 <alise> found it
16:24:45 <alise> Vorpal: no
16:24:46 <alise> sheepshaver
16:24:58 <Vorpal> um no clue if that works
16:25:05 <alise> well it's not my fault it's compiling
16:25:10 <Vorpal> should
16:25:10 <alise> have you got video on segfault enabled
16:25:11 <alise> like the default?
16:25:13 <Vorpal> it symlinks it
16:25:22 <Vorpal> alise, I have it on yes
16:25:48 <alise> ok, there is no possible way this works on your system and not mine
16:25:49 <Vorpal> alise, check siginfo stuff in configure output
16:25:51 <Vorpal> near the end iirc
16:25:53 <Vorpal> see what that ways
16:25:57 <Vorpal> says*
16:26:15 <Vorpal> alise, looking at the preprocessor logic it should be relevant for this
16:27:02 <Vorpal> alise, hm it works without that patch too for me
16:27:24 <Vorpal> alise, maybe configure is missing to check for something properly
16:27:46 <alise> Bad memory access recovery type .. :
16:27:48 <alise> that's not reassuring
16:28:00 <alise> since that's what sigsegv.cpp is all about
16:28:02 <Vorpal> alise, was that from configure?
16:28:05 <alise> yes
16:28:19 <alise> checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler... no
16:28:28 <alise> so why is it doing this
16:28:44 <alise> answer: it can't think of a good recovery type
16:28:45 <alise> i think
16:28:48 <Vorpal> configure:9849: checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler
16:28:48 <Vorpal> configure:9875: g++ -o conftest -pipe -O1 -march=native -ggdb3 -I/usr/include/SDL -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT -Wl,-O1,--as-needed conftest.cpp -lrt -lpthread -l
16:28:48 <Vorpal> m -L/usr/lib -lSDL -lesd >&5
16:28:48 <Vorpal> configure:9875: $? = 0
16:28:48 <Vorpal> configure:9875: ./conftest
16:28:50 <Vorpal> configure:9875: $? = 0
16:28:52 <Vorpal> configure:9893: result: yes
16:29:07 <Vorpal> I get same result for non-SDL build though
16:29:08 <alise> configure:9826: checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler
16:29:08 <alise> configure:9852: clang -o conftest -pipe -O3 conftest.cpp -lpthread -lm -l
16:29:09 <alise> SM -lICE -lX11 -lXext -lXxf86dga -lXxf86vm -lesd >&5
16:29:13 <alise> [the same errors from the actual c file]
16:29:25 <Vorpal> alise, it errors there?
16:29:34 <Vorpal> hm
16:29:36 <Vorpal> alise, try with gcc
16:29:41 <Vorpal> just to see if that works
16:29:44 <alise> patch -p3 <(curl http://sprunge.us/JGEf) ;; skillz
16:29:49 <alise> Vorpal: i think i may be able to fix the problem
16:30:33 <Vorpal> alise, well I don't need the patch it turned out.
16:30:36 <Vorpal> I checked
16:31:04 <alise> configure:9826: checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler
16:31:04 <alise> configure:9852: clang -o conftest -pipe -O3 conftest.cpp -lpthread -lm -l
16:31:04 <alise> SM -lICE -lX11 -lXext -lXxf86dga -lXxf86vm -lesd >&5
16:31:04 <alise> In file included from conftest.cpp:94:
16:31:04 <alise> ./sigsegv.cpp:2592:31: error: use of undeclared identifier 'SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRES
16:31:05 <alise> S'; did you mean 'SIGSEGV_INVALID_ADDRESS'?
16:31:06 <alise> SI.addr = (sigsegv_address_t)SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS_FAST;
16:31:08 <alise> ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
16:31:10 <alise> ./sigsegv.cpp:2481:37: note: instantiated from:
16:31:14 <alise> ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
16:31:16 <alise> sigghhh
16:31:21 <alise> ./sigsegv.cpp:2614:32: error: use of undeclared identifier 'SIGSEGV_REGISTER_FIL
16:31:22 <alise> E'
16:31:25 <alise> this too
16:31:27 <Vorpal> what
16:32:11 <alise> god knows
16:32:34 <Vorpal> alise, SIGSEGV_FAULT_ADDRESS is defined in the sigsegv.h file
16:32:44 <alise> yes it is
16:32:49 <alise> but in an if
16:32:49 <alise> i bet
16:33:09 <Vorpal> yes on __apple__ ???
16:33:22 <Vorpal> brb
16:33:26 <alise> Vorpal: when you run configure
16:33:34 <alise> <alise> Bad memory access recovery type .. :
16:33:35 <alise> what is this line
16:33:38 <alise> ?
16:38:31 <Vorpal> back
16:38:34 <Vorpal> alise, will check
16:39:27 <Vorpal> Bad memory access recovery type .. : siginfo
16:39:28 <Vorpal> alise, ^
16:39:58 <Vorpal> alise, btw you need to do this as root before you can run sheepshaver (once you managed to compile it):
16:40:11 <Vorpal> echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr
16:40:15 <Vorpal> yes that is right
16:40:22 <Vorpal> it needs to be able to mmap page 0 to run
16:40:35 <alise> Vorpal: ok, so i need to install siginfo?
16:40:41 <Vorpal> alise, I don't know.
16:40:45 <alise> i can find no such package
16:40:55 <Vorpal> alise, well, try this with gcc
16:40:58 <Vorpal> see if that works
16:41:07 <alise> in a minute, sure
16:41:39 <Vorpal> alise, I will speak to you again after you either solved it or tried with gcc
16:43:07 <alise> Vorpal: ducks
16:44:11 <Vorpal> well ducks is a different topic than sheepshaver, so okay, I can discuss that species of birds if you like.
16:44:17 <Vorpal> Not that I have much to add to it
16:47:08 <alise> Vorpal: fun fact: if you do a quick swap of lolcode's keywords with more conventional things, it becomes a regular programming language
16:47:20 <Vorpal> I know
16:47:26 <alise> with some strangeness; for instance, a conditional is "bool / if / then / ... / else / ... / endif"
16:47:32 <alise> Vorpal: oh, but in a much stronger sense than merely resemblance
16:47:35 <Vorpal> alise, some notes that might help though: siginfo seems related to sigaction(), which afaik is POSIX and handled in libc
16:47:42 <alise> I can literally imagine this being released as a real programming language
16:47:47 <Vorpal> I would suspect clang is indeed the issue there
16:47:58 <alise> tmpServer == "OK"
16:47:58 <alise> if
16:47:58 <alise> then
16:47:58 <alise> plainText!!append srvr
16:48:05 <alise> gotta be a nicer keyword for if there, it seems really weird
16:48:18 <Vorpal> why do if and then have to be separate keywords
16:48:26 <alise> BOTH SAEM tmpServer AN "OK"
16:48:26 <alise> O RLY?
16:48:26 <alise> YA RLY
16:48:26 <alise> plainText!!append WIF srvr
16:48:27 <Vorpal> unless they can occur separated?
16:48:33 <alise> because that's how lolcode has it
16:48:42 <Vorpal> key phrases
16:48:43 <alise> perhaps check / ifso are the closest to those
16:49:04 <alise> or perhaps check / iftrue / iffalse
16:49:07 <Vorpal> alise, oh and check the result of the "whether your system supports extended signal handlers" test
16:49:13 <Vorpal> that is where it detects siginfo I think
16:49:25 <alise> checking whether your system supports extended signal handlers... no
16:49:29 <Vorpal> alise, says yes here
16:49:42 <Vorpal> alise, and as far as I know it is libc, not compiler implemented
16:49:57 <Vorpal> alise, so check config.log for details on that test
16:50:04 <alise> http://pastie.org/1122599.txt?key=0drwzd3rf6teud4qg8akuw ;; this is LOLCode, with a simple substitution
16:50:21 <Vorpal> java?
16:50:27 <alise> yeah it uses java classes
16:50:30 <Vorpal> um
16:50:32 <alise> it's run in "Java LOLCode"
16:50:44 <Vorpal> alise, are all implementations using that?
16:50:45 <alise> implementation-specific of course
16:50:47 <Vorpal> ah
16:50:50 <alise> no
16:50:56 <alise> but lolcode impls are a bit wildly varying anyway
16:51:13 <Vorpal> alise, apart from stdio iirc?
16:51:18 <alise> prolly
16:51:19 <alise> there is a spec
16:51:22 <alise> dunno if anyone follows it
16:51:25 <alise> begin
16:51:27 <alise> use stdio
16:51:29 <alise> print "HAI WORLD!"
16:51:30 <alise> end
16:51:32 <alise> -- hello world
16:51:41 <Vorpal> alise, what is the !! notation you used
16:51:49 <alise> that's !! in the original
16:51:53 <alise> presumably java-lolcode specific
16:51:55 <Vorpal> and what does it mean?
16:51:57 <Vorpal> ah
16:51:59 <alise> . in java
16:52:09 <alise> foo!!bar xyz == foo.bar(xyz)
16:52:14 <Vorpal> right
16:52:18 <alise> foo!!bar WIF xyz in the original
16:53:18 <Vorpal> alise, your code is however an improvement compared to java for most part
16:53:21 <Vorpal> XD
16:53:27 <alise> http://lolcode.com/keywords/iz a more conventional if statement
16:53:29 <alise> Vorpal: yeah :P
16:53:48 <alise> The traditional if/then construct is a very simple construct operating on the implicit IT variable. In the base form, there are four keywords: O RLY?, YA RLY, NO WAI, and OIC.
16:53:50 <alise> ok, never mind
16:53:51 <alise> -- 1.2 spec
16:54:00 <alise> O RLY? branches to the block begun with YA RLY if IT can be cast to WIN, and branches to the NO WAI block if IT is FAIL. The code block introduced with YA RLY is implicitly closed when NO WAI is reached. The NO WAI block is closed with OIC. The general form is then as follows:
16:54:07 <Vorpal> alise, the !! notation I find is not very good but apart that, and some other small details, quite nice compared to java
16:54:23 <alise> BOTH SAEM ANIMAL AN "CAT", O RLY?
16:54:23 <alise> YA RLY, VISIBLE "J00 HAV A CAT"
16:54:23 <alise> NO WAI, VISIBLE "J00 SUX"
16:54:23 <alise> OIC
16:54:24 <alise> ah, that is valid
16:54:34 <alise> so you could say
16:54:38 <alise> tmpServer == "OK", check
16:54:39 <alise> iftrue
16:54:39 <alise> plainText!!append srvr
16:54:39 <alise> plainText!!append " | OK\r\n"
16:54:39 <alise> ...
16:54:55 <alise> BOTH SAEM ANIMAL AN "CAT"
16:54:55 <alise> O RLY?
16:54:55 <alise> YA RLY, VISIBLE "J00 HAV A CAT"
16:54:55 <alise> VISIBLE "NOM NOM NOM. I EATED IT."
16:54:56 <alise> OIC
16:55:00 <alise> animal == "CAT"
16:55:01 <alise> check
16:55:06 <alise> iftrue, print "J00 HAV A CAT"
16:55:06 <Vorpal> alise, any luck with sheepshaver?
16:55:13 <Vorpal> I find lolcode utterly boring
16:55:16 <alise> ifelse animal == "MAUS"
16:55:20 <alise> print "NOM NOM NOM. I EATED IT."
16:55:22 <alise> endcheck
16:55:24 <alise> Vorpal: of course it is
16:55:30 <alise> but it's hilarious just how unesoteric it is
16:55:34 <Vorpal> indeed
16:55:38 <alise> they've managed to produce something almost identical to a regular language
16:55:51 <Vorpal> alise, so did you try with gcc yet?
16:55:59 <Vorpal> alise, or even check that thing in config.log?
16:56:12 <alise> im gonna try with gcc now
16:56:50 <alise> checking whether your system supports extended signal handlers... yes
16:56:50 <alise> checking whether we can skip instruction in SIGSEGV handler... yes
16:56:50 <alise> hm
16:57:43 <Vorpal> alise, then I suggest you either check what the error is for clang in config.log, or just use gcc :P
16:57:53 <alise> no clang is awesome
16:57:56 <Vorpal> I strongly doubt clang will manage the jit
16:58:16 <alise> RACIST
16:58:44 <Vorpal> alise, sure it is nice, but I'm not that interested in spending time on trying to port a most likely very GCC specific JIT to clang
16:58:51 <alise> bah fine
16:58:59 <Vorpal> alise, of course you can do it if you want
16:59:09 <Vorpal> the error might be trivial to fix
16:59:14 <Vorpal> or it might be impossible
16:59:26 <Vorpal> well not impossible
16:59:27 <alise> http://lolcode.com/specs/1.2 wow it's so formal
16:59:35 <Vorpal> but it might need a huge rewrite
16:59:43 <Vorpal> alise, any BNF?
16:59:52 <alise> no, but...
16:59:56 <alise> the language is terribly formal in it
17:00:00 <alise> for lolcode
17:00:30 <alise> All LOLCODE programs must be opened with the command HAI. HAI should then be followed with the current LOLCODE language version number (1.2, in this case). There is no current standard behavior for implementations to treat the version number, though.
17:00:36 <alise> ah so that's better translated as "lolcode N", not "begin N"
17:00:50 <Vorpal> alise, so did you look at config.log for clang?
17:00:54 <alise> yeah
17:00:56 <alise> just the same errors
17:01:04 <Vorpal> alise, for that siginfo test?
17:01:06 <alise> SheepShaver compiles now anyhoo
17:01:10 <Vorpal> as opposed to the other ones
17:01:18 <alise> "Zap PRAM file" lol
17:01:35 <Vorpal> alise, makes perfect sense to me, but where does it say that?
17:01:40 <alise> menus
17:01:56 <alise> zapping PRAM is funny because it was incredibly common advice back in the day and almost always did nothing helpful
17:02:04 <alise> "I have a problem with--" "Zap your PRAM."
17:02:16 <Vorpal> alise, okay so then you need a ROM, a install cd iso (or *.toast, iirc sheepshaver can use *.toast images)
17:02:25 <Vorpal> those I can't help you with
17:02:29 <alise> CD? seriously? for system 7?
17:02:51 <Vorpal> alise, well I had a PPC performa with system 7.5
17:02:56 <Vorpal> it came with the system on a cd
17:03:05 <Vorpal> alise, 68k probably didn't
17:03:15 <alise> true
17:03:21 <alise> The colon may also introduce more verbose escapes enclosed within some form of bracket.
17:03:21 <alise> :(<hex>) resolves the hex number into the corresponding Unicode code point.
17:03:21 <alise> :{<var>} interpolates the current value of the enclosed variable, cast as a string.
17:03:21 <alise> :[<char name>] resolves the <char name> in capital letters to the corresponding Unicode normative name.
17:03:53 <Vorpal> alise, and anyway, getting hold of the rom takes a bit of work
17:05:08 <Vorpal> alise, that looks like it is designed for ease of parsing rather than ease of use
17:05:26 <alise> Operators that work on specific types implicitly cast parameter values of other types. If the value cannot be safely cast, then it results in an error.
17:05:26 <alise> An expression's value may be explicitly cast with the binary MAEK operator.
17:05:26 <alise> MAEK <expression> [A] <type>
17:05:26 <alise> Where <type> is one of TROOF, YARN, NUMBR, NUMBAR, or NOOB. This is only for local casting: only the resultant value is cast, not the underlying variable(s), if any.
17:05:29 <alise> this is ridiculous
17:05:52 <alise> Vorpal: sdl compiles for me, how do i produce an error?
17:06:04 <Vorpal> alise, by running it and then moving the mouse about
17:06:10 <alise> i see.
17:06:13 <alise> i sort of lack the files to do that
17:06:16 <Vorpal> alise, right
17:06:53 <Vorpal> I'll be back in a few minutes
17:10:51 <fizzie> What's this "the rom" that takes a bit of work?
17:11:55 <alise> mac rom thing
17:12:08 <Vorpal> both 68k and ppc ones takes a bit of work to find
17:12:18 <fizzie> "A bit of work" they're right there at oldos.org.
17:12:31 <Vorpal> with the 68k you can trivially get the ppc one thanks to being able to extract it from an update
17:12:32 <fizzie> Well, at least the Quadra 650 ROM I used last time.
17:12:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, that works for basiliskII, not sheepshaver
17:12:48 <alise> don't suppose anyone has a system 7 disc?
17:12:57 <Vorpal> alise, no, I sold that performa years ago
17:13:36 <Vorpal> alise, check macintoshgarden though
17:13:40 <Vorpal> they have lots of old software
17:13:43 <Vorpal> or links to it
17:13:45 <Vorpal> at least
17:13:51 <alise> "abandonware" hahahahaha
17:14:00 <Vorpal> alise, quite a bit of it is, not all is though
17:14:05 <alise> no, abandonware is bullshit
17:14:10 <alise> legally meaningless
17:14:22 <Vorpal> *shrug* I don't run it
17:14:24 <alise> "this thing is old and not sold any more, therefore I can publish it for free" has never been true
17:14:35 <fizzie> Hm? The instructions I adapted last time -- http://wiki.oldos.org/Mac/PPCEmulator -- set up SheepShaver (with OS 7.5.5) with that particular ROM.
17:16:10 <fizzie> Haven't tried this for a while, though.
17:16:21 <alise> http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-system-76-mac-os-76
17:16:22 <alise> hey ho
17:16:27 <alise> Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs
17:16:28 <alise> lol
17:16:48 <Vorpal> alise, yes, check comments for alt downloads
17:16:54 <Vorpal> sometimes that exists
17:17:02 <alise> Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs
17:17:03 <alise> erm
17:17:06 <alise> Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs
17:17:07 <alise> erm
17:17:11 <alise> Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs wtf
17:17:18 <alise> "Copy Text" is grayed out in the menu how bizarre
17:17:20 <alise> there are System 7, Mac OS 8 and 9 installs there (and a lot of good programs)
17:17:21 <alise> anyway
17:17:25 <alise> so i'll try that link
17:18:15 <Vorpal> alise, I got 9 from a certain bay ages ago (due to my physical cd being damaged :/)
17:18:15 <alise> Mac OS 7.6 Install.sit
17:18:15 <alise> woot
17:18:40 <Vorpal> alise, oooh this looks like a "open the box with the crowbar found inside" issue
17:18:41 <Vorpal> XD
17:18:52 <alise> i'm sure i can unpack sits on linux :P
17:18:59 <alise> configure: WARNING: Sorry, no suitable addressing mode in direct
17:18:59 <alise> configure: error: Sorry, the JIT Compiler requires Direct Addressing, at least
17:19:00 <alise> sniff
17:19:00 <Vorpal> alise, only old old sit
17:19:11 <alise> its 7.6
17:19:13 <alise> it probably is old old sit
17:19:19 <Vorpal> alise, eh
17:19:23 <Vorpal> what is that about direct
17:19:27 <fizzie> You can unpack very *very* few sit files on Linux; the tools are horribel.
17:19:31 <Vorpal> sheepshaver requires "real"
17:19:41 <Vorpal> basiliskII requires "direct" or "real"
17:19:41 <alise> i was trying to enable jit compiler in basilisk
17:19:47 <Vorpal> alise, works for me
17:19:49 <Vorpal> in it
17:19:57 <alise> what's the patch you need?
17:20:11 <Vorpal> alise, none?
17:20:14 <Vorpal> alise, well actually
17:20:20 <Vorpal> alise, I needed to fix configure.ac
17:20:26 <alise> configure: WARNING: Sorry, no suitable addressing mode in real
17:20:26 <alise> configure: error: Sorry, the JIT Compiler requires Direct Addressing, at least
17:20:27 <Vorpal> alise, it is broken
17:20:36 <Vorpal> alise, read the first 5 lines or so
17:20:43 <Vorpal> it will claim GCC doesn't support C89
17:20:50 <Vorpal> and that stdlib.h is broken
17:20:57 <alise> not here
17:20:57 <Vorpal> reality: configure.ac needs manual patching
17:21:06 <alise> oh hm
17:21:09 <alise> so what do i have to do
17:21:13 <Vorpal> sec
17:22:11 <Vorpal> alise, right near the top of configure.ac, after the AC_CONFIG_HEADER line
17:22:13 <Vorpal> add this line:
17:22:26 <alise> thanks
17:22:27 <Vorpal> alise, then rerun autogen.sh
17:23:33 <Vorpal> alise, that JIT can make OS 7 load so fast you only see a flicker for the extensions
17:23:43 <Vorpal> alise, on the other hand it breaks some old games I play in it
17:24:11 <Vorpal> and even without the JIT stuff is faster than any "real" System 7 system that I used
17:24:19 <alise> it can't use either addressing mode for me, so yeah
17:24:23 <alise> no JIT it is
17:24:38 <Vorpal> alise, how very strange... what distro?
17:24:45 <alise> arch linux 64
17:25:03 <Vorpal> hm
17:25:11 <Vorpal> alise, could be related. Not sure
17:25:19 <alise> Crazy Language Idea: "employees.each { print employee.name }"; that is, the implicit argument name to closures passed to iterators is the singular of the collection name.
17:25:26 <Vorpal> bbl food
17:25:28 <alise> people.each { print person.age }
17:25:47 <alise> Addressing mode ........................ : direct
17:25:48 <alise> what how can that be
17:27:20 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:27:46 <alise> ah i have jit enabled
17:28:46 * Sgeo decides to attempt to endure Pidgin again
17:28:55 <Vorpal> hm wasn't quite ready
17:29:04 <Vorpal> Sgeo, alise had some stuff in the lo
17:29:05 <Vorpal> log*
17:29:08 <Vorpal> replies to what you said
17:29:13 <Vorpal> wrt netbook/laptop
17:29:13 <Sgeo> ty
17:31:17 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:32:08 <alise> Gwenolé Beauchesne is maintaining a version of Basilisk II with a dynamically recompiling 680x0 emulation.
17:32:09 <alise> coool
17:32:42 <Sgeo> 680x0?
17:33:18 <Vorpal> alise, that is the one you are using afaik?
17:33:46 <Vorpal> alise, or something based on it
17:34:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you might know it as 68k
17:34:53 <Vorpal> alise, the link in question is dead
17:34:57 <fizzie> Whoa, BasiliskII's startup in JIT-mode is indeed the fast.
17:35:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, even more so with these settings:
17:35:28 <Vorpal> compile FPU
17:35:34 <Vorpal> cache: 16384
17:35:41 <Vorpal> enable lazy invalidation
17:35:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is the fastest one, the "constant jump" one slowed it down for me
17:35:56 <fizzie> Compile FPU and lazy invalidation were (at least here) checked by default; cache was 8192, though.
17:36:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, they were unchecked here
17:36:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, however it breaks on some old apps
17:36:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, it starts faster than any real mac ever did even without JIT, so not really an issue
17:37:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, like 2 seconds with jit disabled
17:37:20 <Vorpal> a fraction of a second with it enabled
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17:57:14 <Vorpal> back from eating
17:57:24 <Vorpal> alise, any luck with getting stuff running?
17:59:45 -!- relet has joined.
18:00:40 <fizzie> strings quadra650.rom, selected snippets:
18:00:42 <fizzie> Life Is Good
18:00:42 <fizzie> Life Is Good
18:00:42 <fizzie> Life Is Good
18:00:43 <fizzie> [...]
18:03:09 <fizzie> Inspired by the topic, I dug out the original iBook installation discs and dumped "Classic Support" in again.
18:04:03 <fizzie> OS 9.2, and all kinds of useful things, like Netscape Communicator, and IE 5.0.
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18:05:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
18:05:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, IE 5 was quite good, for it's time
18:05:35 -!- cheater99 has joined.
18:05:44 <Vorpal> far better than IE6 even
18:06:55 <fizzie> It has a "Mac OS ROM" image in it too, but I don't suppose it works in SheepShaver. (Still, nice that it starts with some Forth code.)
18:07:14 <Vorpal> it does? huh
18:07:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, then I think it might
18:07:30 <Vorpal> it sounds like openfirmware stuff
18:07:42 <fizzie> Well, it starts with <CHRP-BOOT>, and there's a <BOOT-SCRIPT> made of Forth.
18:08:11 <fizzie> It *looks* like a newworld ROM, but SheepShaver said "segfault" when I told it to use it. Of course it might've segfaulted on something completely difererent.
18:08:41 <Sgeo> Maybe I should attempt to learn Forth
18:08:53 * Sgeo wonders how many languages he knows, and how many he's forgotten
18:09:07 <Sgeo> Hmm, the forgotten list arguably includes Perl and COBOL
18:09:18 <Sgeo> Although I still remember some bits of COBOL
18:11:36 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/grkg -- weird place to crash, on the opening { of SCSIInit. It seems as if something has overwritten the function with zeroes.
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18:13:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, hahaha
18:13:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, it hasn't crashed
18:13:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, same way that jitfunge getting sigsegv didn't crash :P
18:13:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, to run it under gdb you need:
18:13:40 <Vorpal> handle SIGSEGV nostop noprint
18:13:40 <Vorpal> handle SIG40 nostop noprint
18:13:40 <Vorpal> handle SIG41 nostop noprint
18:13:41 <Vorpal> those
18:14:40 <fizzie> Hmm'k; but it does crash in the sense that the process dies with segfault.
18:16:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, thats strange
18:16:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, what ROM are you using?
18:16:18 <Vorpal> not the same as for basilisk I hope?
18:16:28 <fizzie> "ERROR: Unsupported ROM type." -- aw. (Disabled the JIT thing.)
18:16:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, well if you have basilisk working you can trivially get one for sheepshaver
18:16:52 <fizzie> Oh, I was just trying out that iBook "Classic support" ROM. I didn't really expect it'd work.
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18:17:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, by getting 68k tomeviewer (available for free from various places) + one update from apple
18:17:32 <Vorpal> and then extract the rom from that update
18:17:34 <fizzie> Yep, I saw that in the interwebs somewhere.
18:17:36 <Vorpal> google for details
18:17:54 <fizzie> What's the deal with the addressing modes, by the way? With --enable-addressing=direct it dies to the segfault; without, it gives that "Unsupported ROM type" message.
18:19:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, um I don't know about that
18:19:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, but it needs to be = real for sheepshaver
18:20:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, for = real to work you need to do that "allow mmap of page 0" thing I mentioned above
18:20:20 <fizzie> Yes, I noticed that.
18:20:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, ppc without jit is unusably slow
18:20:33 <Vorpal> even on a core 2 duo
18:20:41 <Vorpal> that is for OS 9
18:20:44 <Vorpal> never tried 7
18:21:16 <fizzie> For PPC System pre-8.5 I'd need an oldworld rom, anyway.
18:21:23 <Vorpal> hm
18:21:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't have that. What I have is the "update from apple" one
18:25:56 <fizzie> Interesting. "The document "TomeViewer 1.3d3" could not be opened, because the application program that created it could not be found. Could not find a translation extension with appropriate translators." (And this was supposed to be a 68k version especially for the rom-extraction with Basilisk II.)
18:26:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, um...
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18:26:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, file damaged?
18:27:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you unpack it in a way as to preserve the resource fork?
18:27:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, a ppc executable that is valid won't give you that error on 68k
18:27:52 <fizzie> I guess it could be. It was a .sit, extracted it with the Stuffit Expander 5.5 that I have inside BasiliskII, and it didn't complain. (Not that I know if there's any checksums in .sit files.)
18:28:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm... do you have disk copy in there?
18:28:26 <Vorpal> if so I could send you a *.img.hqx
18:29:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, sit alone won't do it
18:29:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc you need to *.bin or *.hqx it
18:29:36 <Vorpal> to make it safe to transfer
18:30:05 <fizzie> Possibly, it's just that I only see it as plain .sit file. I would think StuffIt would complain if the .sit isn't whole, but who knoes.
18:30:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, so. do you have disk copy or not?
18:31:01 <fizzie> Yes, but using it sounds like giving up; I'm going to extract that thing out of the .sit no matter what. :p
18:31:08 <Vorpal> oh well
18:36:06 -!- Atomix has joined.
18:36:18 <Atomix> Hello
18:36:22 <Vorpal> hi
18:36:50 <Atomix> I saw channel on the list, I wondered - what are you discussing here?
18:37:51 <Vorpal> Atomix, esoteric programming languages
18:38:25 <Vorpal> such as brainf*ck, INTERCAL, befunge and so on. see also our wiki at esolangs.org/wiki
18:38:31 -!- Gregor has joined.
18:38:41 <Atomix> whats the purpose of these languages?
18:38:41 <Sgeo> Atomix, do you know what a programming language is? It's a language that humans can write and read (usually) that contain instructions for computers
18:38:50 <Atomix> I know javascript
18:38:53 <Sgeo> An esoteric programming language is one that's not intended for mainstream use
18:38:53 <Vorpal> Atomix, fun and recreation I guess
18:38:58 <Atomix> i have made several applications
18:39:03 <Sgeo> Maybe to see if some weird thing can be done
18:39:13 <Atomix> like what?
18:39:13 <Sgeo> There's one language deliberately made to be difficult to write in
18:39:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway if you want that file it will be at http://mewtwo.sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/TomeViewer.img.hqx until tomorrow
18:39:36 <Vorpal> Sgeo, one? malbolge? intercal?
18:39:44 <Sgeo> I was thinking of Malbolge
18:39:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Craziest things ever. I added a bit more memory (8 → 64) to the BasiliskII (so that it can run iCab -- was thinking of maybe downloading it directly there), and for some reason now extracting tomeviewer.sit worked. Or at least the file now has a proper icon.
18:40:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not *that* surprised in fact.
18:40:18 <Atomix> so can you give me some nice example where you have used esolang ?
18:40:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is some strangeness with downloading non-hqxed dual fork files
18:40:21 <Atomix> a link or smt
18:40:33 <Sgeo> Atomix, sane people don't use esolangs for productive products
18:40:41 <Sgeo> They're just for fun
18:40:48 <Atomix> thats what i mean
18:40:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, will remove that file I uploaded then
18:40:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, but this was the very same .sit file I extracted; I didn't download it with iCab. The only thing I changed was the memory.
18:41:01 <Vorpal> Atomix, the bot fungot in here is coded in one
18:41:02 <fungot> Vorpal: all right?
18:41:03 <Vorpal> ^source
18:41:04 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:41:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, why so little ram for it? I have like 512 MB assigned to it iirc
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18:42:25 <Sgeo> GNIF?
18:42:26 <alise> trQ\WATESYCFIUBHNOJPMK'L
18:42:26 <alise> ]O#KJI'HU;PYGTIRESZYWAT\RSTyezrtivugphojk
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18:42:38 <Vorpal> Sgeo, FING yes, what about it
18:42:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I didn't have my old config file in ~, so it had defaulted to 8M.
18:42:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
18:42:54 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I assume it's a ... thingy of some sort
18:42:58 <Sgeo> fingerprint
18:43:04 <Sgeo> thingamabober
18:43:22 <Vorpal> FING, SOCK and FILE are all fingerprints
18:43:28 <Vorpal> (same goes for whatever other ones it uses)
18:43:44 <Vorpal> Sgeo, FING is however for reassigning the assignment of letters for fingerprints
18:43:52 <Vorpal> such that you move an instruction from C to S or whatever
18:44:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, useful when multiple fingerprints collide
18:44:02 <Sgeo> Ah
18:44:04 <Atomix> hmm I took a look at the source you gave me - ive never seen any esolangs before. So what is the whole purpose of creating these languages, where does the fun come in?
18:45:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, the tomeviewer-extracted rom worked; don't have an operating system handy, though. IIRC they did something to the OS 9.2 included in OS X's "classic support" so that it couldn't be run on "real" (or emulated) macs, only within OS X's Classic. Will have to wonder about that later.
18:45:06 <Vorpal> Atomix, I guess that is hard to explain if you don't get it. Some people (like we) just find inventing, coding in or implementing such languages fun
18:45:23 <fizzie> (Sauna-time now.)
18:45:27 <Atomix> but why
18:45:27 <Vorpal> Atomix, why does someone who find skiing fun find it fun
18:45:34 <Vorpal> I don't know the answer
18:45:51 <alise> <fizzie> Vorpal: Craziest things ever. I added a bit more memory (8 → 64) to the BasiliskII (so that it can run iCab -- was thinking of maybe downloading it directly there), and for some reason now extracting tomeviewer.sit worked. Or at least the file now has a proper icon. ;; icab yay!
18:46:14 <Vorpal> alise, isn't icab shareware? I seem to remember it refused to run after x days
18:46:20 <alise> fizzie: twungot?
18:46:38 <alise> Vorpal: it's free now at least i think
18:46:49 <alise> oh, twitter fungot
18:46:49 <fungot> alise: the president of shinra soldiers around here. better get some tea!
18:46:54 <alise> you're rewriting it in forth? XD
18:46:55 <Sgeo> Personally, I don't particularly enjoy coding in esolangs, but do enjoy thinking about them, and if I ever get the courage, maybe making one at some point
18:47:06 <Vorpal> alise, what?
18:47:11 <alise> i was talking to fizzie
18:47:20 <alise> Vorpal: what's that /sys thing i need to echo again?
18:47:22 <Vorpal> alise, yes but where did he say he was doing that
18:47:25 <alise> is it required for basilisk ii?
18:47:27 <alise> Vorpal: his git repo
18:47:40 <Vorpal> alise, echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/mmap<tab>
18:47:43 <Vorpal> where tab is literal one
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18:47:48 <Vorpal> there is just one completion
18:47:55 <Vorpal> alise, I don't remember the exact name
18:47:55 <alise> does basilisk II need it or just SS?
18:48:02 <Vorpal> alise, SS
18:48:04 <fizzie> Yes, twitter fungot.
18:48:05 <fungot> fizzie: an' for marlene......!
18:48:11 <Vorpal> alise, or basiliskII in *real* addressing mode
18:48:15 <Vorpal> as opposed to direct
18:48:18 <alise> I think it's in real. Not sure.
18:48:24 <Vorpal> alise, well try it
18:48:31 <Vorpal> alise, it won't boot if it needs it
18:48:36 <alise> yeah
18:48:41 <Atomix> What is the meaning of life?
18:48:50 <alise> Atomix: not 42, that's the answer to life, the universe and everything
18:48:52 <alise> not the meaning of life
18:48:56 <Vorpal> Atomix, no idea, but if you generalise that question it is 42
18:49:02 <Vorpal> alise, oh snap
18:49:03 <alise> Vorpal: oh goody, you can specify options on the command line
18:49:06 <alise> or a config file
18:49:12 <alise> you don't appear to be able to save config from the GUI though
18:49:14 <Vorpal> alise, config file is better probably
18:49:14 <alise> just from CLI
18:49:17 <Vorpal> alise, um
18:49:21 <Vorpal> you can config from gui
18:49:24 <alise> yes
18:49:26 <alise> but it doesn't persist
18:49:28 <Vorpal> alise, sure you have gtk -dev packages installed?
18:49:31 <Vorpal> alise, whaat?
18:49:31 <alise> so you have to do:
18:49:33 <alise> --config FILE
18:49:33 <alise> read/write configuration from/to FILE
18:49:35 <Atomix> Thats not correct, 42 is the answer to the ultimate question of life
18:49:35 <Vorpal> alise, oh it needs to start
18:49:37 <Vorpal> before
18:49:39 <alise> Atomix: no it isn't
18:49:41 <alise> read the books
18:49:44 <alise> Vorpal: oh.
18:49:46 <Atomix> but what is the ultimate question of life?
18:49:46 <Vorpal> alise, if you close it right away it won't persist iirc
18:49:50 <alise> Vorpal: where does it save?
18:49:57 <Vorpal> alise, somewhere in ~
18:50:00 <Vorpal> can't check right now
18:50:10 <alise> Atomix: Mu; the question is "what is the question [that is answered by the answer to life, the universe, and everything]?"
18:50:36 <alise> Sgeo: Wrong.
18:50:38 <alise> Probably.
18:50:42 <fizzie> ~/.basilisk_ii_prefs is what it created here.
18:50:48 <Atomix> he aint wrong, but anyone can read that on wiki
18:50:51 <Atomix> im asking your opinion
18:50:56 <Sgeo> I'm not sure if there was a "multiply" in there
18:50:59 <alise> Arthur is not one of the Earth natives, so although he contains part of its program, he cannot execute it perfectly.
18:51:13 <alise> It is most likely "What do you get when you multiply six by seven?".
18:51:31 <alise> Of course the literal interpretation is played out in the book.
18:51:37 <Sgeo> *the universe ends and is replaced by something even stranger*
18:51:46 <Atomix> or has happened already
18:51:55 <Atomix> but you are missing my point
18:51:56 <alise> Doesn't mean it can't happen twice.
18:52:06 <Atomix> I aint talking about the book, as i said
18:52:08 <alise> Atomix: If you're actually asking what I think the meaning of life is, I think it has no meaning.
18:52:09 <Atomix> im asking your opinion
18:52:15 <Sgeo> Ah
18:52:20 <Sgeo> For "meaning of life?"
18:52:24 <Atomix> yes
18:52:29 <alise> Of course it's "worth" doing some things, but that's not because of any inherent meaning to life.
18:52:35 <alise> It just sort of happens.
18:52:42 <Atomix> what happens?
18:52:47 <Sgeo> I don't think there is an extrinsically assigned meaning. If we want a meaning of life, we have to make a meaning ourselves
18:52:49 <alise> Well. Time.
18:53:01 <alise> And the universe ends up changing. Some life is involved in all that big mix-up.
18:53:06 <alise> Nothing particular.
18:53:12 <Atomix> so you are saying we have to make our brains think that there is a purpose to life, even though in reality there isnt one?
18:53:28 <alise> I disagree with that.
18:53:35 * Sgeo isn't sure how religious stuff entered this discussion
18:53:38 <alise> I think we have the power to decide what meaning our own life has, as it is our own.
18:53:54 <Sgeo> We don't )have_ to make our brains think there is a purpose to life, unless we want a purpose to life
18:54:03 <alise> Life, itself, I think we must accept has no meaning. But I don't think that's a negative thing; that's a very human-centric view of things, that having no inherent meaning is a bad thing.
18:54:04 <Atomix> thats the same as convicing ourselves of somekind of purpose
18:54:10 <alise> No. Not really.
18:54:17 <alise> It's merely deciding a subjective set of values which we strive for.
18:54:25 <Atomix> exactly
18:54:42 <Atomix> so what happens when you run of those values?
18:54:46 <alise> What?
18:54:53 <Atomix> you commit suicide?
18:54:56 <alise> <Atomix> so what happens when you run of those values?
18:55:01 <alise> Please restate this in a comprehensible manner.
18:55:04 <alise> I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
18:55:12 <Sgeo> I think Atomix is asking what happens when you complete your self-assigned purpose
18:55:26 <Atomix> you stated yourself, that we decide on a subjective set of values to strive for
18:55:31 <alise> Yes.
18:55:32 <alise> And?
18:55:37 <Atomix> and I asked
18:55:42 <Atomix> what happens when you run out of them
18:55:45 <Sgeo> Choose another purpose? Choose a purpose that won't run out? Live without a purpose other than having fun?
18:55:48 <Atomix> when you have no more values
18:55:52 <alise> Atomix: Meaningless question.
18:55:58 <Atomix> one might think so
18:56:05 <alise> An example set of values may be utilitarianism: maximise the happiness of all sentient beings.
18:56:10 <alise> There is no way to "run out" of utilitarianism.
18:56:18 <Gregor> I had the values 3, 7 and 12.
18:56:22 <Gregor> I used all of them.
18:56:24 <Gregor> I am now out of values.
18:56:45 <Atomix> but the theory is missing its purpose - sooner or later one will ask himself/herself why to do such a thing? (as you said, maximise the happiness of all sentient beings)
18:56:47 <alise> Atomix: but really I think this is sort of a philosophical tar pit
18:57:00 <alise> we're trying to give meanings to questions that we've decided have no meaning just because we feel a need to answer them
18:57:06 <alise> that's pointless.
18:57:16 <alise> Atomix: Why? Because it's arbitrary.
18:57:26 <alise> Yes, it cannot be justified in the end, just like axioms in a logical system can't be justified.
18:57:40 <alise> But I think you can reject "kill everyone" for the same reasons you can reject "A and not A".
18:58:10 <Sgeo> That assumes that there's some objective way to order values
18:58:20 <alise> Nothing I said does.
18:58:42 <alise> http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.5_Version_7.5.3/ ;; anyone know how to change these into one disk image?
18:58:49 <alise> or should i not bother?
18:58:51 <Atomix> alise, what is that YOU strive for in your life?
18:59:10 <alise> Atomix: An arbitrary, hodge-podge set of basically inconsistent values. Like all humans.
18:59:30 <Atomix> be more specific
18:59:34 <alise> I mess around, I occasionally do productive stuff, I try to be nice to people who are nice and not stupid...
18:59:42 <alise> But I don't consciously analyse my every action.
18:59:47 <alise> If you do, you probably need to relax a bit.
19:01:07 <alise> fizzie: where's the ROM on oldos?
19:01:48 <alise> found it
19:01:55 <alise> I think.
19:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Random H2G2 thought:
19:02:24 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> The psychiatrists obviously knew the truth about Earth; that's why they destroyed it.
19:03:01 <Phantom_Hoover> But then surely they would have known about the Golgafrinchian contamination?
19:03:05 <Sgeo> I could swear I've seen that hypothesis somewh.. oh
19:03:40 <alise> Attempting to find consistency in H2G2: one of the most laughable activities in the galaxy.
19:03:44 * Sgeo 's memory comes back to him
19:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but this is #esoteric!
19:04:00 <Phantom_Hoover> No task is too laughable!
19:04:14 <Sgeo> We can solve the halting problem!
19:04:48 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:04:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, YES WE CAN!
19:05:24 <alise> fizzie: you can just dd some zeroes to a file and use that as the disk, right?
19:05:29 <alise> and let the installer format it
19:06:08 * Sgeo once tried to disprove God by wondering if Chaitin's constant was not just uncomputable, but unknowable
19:06:44 <alise> you can't disprove god
19:06:47 <alise> it's stupid to try
19:06:57 <alise> Sgeo: it's not unknowable i don't think
19:07:01 <alise> people have computed the first digits for some languages
19:07:12 <alise> just like the BB function is uncomputable
19:07:15 <alise> but you can work it out manually
19:07:31 <Sgeo> I had a bit of a mistaken idea regarding turing machines and interactions with input
19:08:04 <alise> for instance the first four bits of the halting probability of either binary lambda calculus or binary combinator logic (I forget which) are .0001
19:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, BB function?
19:08:29 <alise> so the probability that a random program in those halts is >= 0.0625
19:08:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: busy beaver
19:10:00 <alise> Caught SIGSEGV at address 0x7fac25b6a708 [IP=0x7fac284109e3]
19:10:40 <alise> fun fun
19:12:25 * Sgeo earpains
19:14:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, at a written segfault?
19:14:23 <alise> ?
19:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Your ears are weird.
19:18:52 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:19:40 <alise> thing = string | list of (thing | (string, thing))
19:20:23 <Sgeo> That looks too much like OCaml except for the "of"
19:20:31 <Phantom_Hoover> The halting problem is at \Delta^0_2 in the arithmetical hierarchy.
19:20:33 <Sgeo> Or wait, is "of" part of OCaml types?
19:20:41 <Phantom_Hoover> ...What's in the higher numbers?
19:20:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Death and pain.
19:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Things Man Was Not Meant To Know.
19:21:56 <Sgeo> Igors didn't believe in Things Man Was Not Meant To Know
19:22:22 <Sgeo> But Igor firmly believed that there were some things a man was not meant to know, such as what it felt like to have every ...
19:22:25 <Sgeo> I forgot the rest
19:23:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, someone's quoted that at me before.
19:23:11 <Phantom_Hoover> (I've read it too, naturally)
19:23:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it was after the Life self-replicator was built.
19:24:11 <Sgeo> There's a Life self-replicator?
19:24:15 <Sgeo> (j/k, I remember)
19:25:19 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what alise thinks of Linux Mint
19:25:24 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:25:36 <alise> Sgeo: "pointless", basically
19:25:38 <alise> hi ais523
19:25:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, wasn't that stupidised Ubuntu?
19:26:04 <Phantom_Hoover> A description I never thought I would type..
19:26:22 <alise> how can this startup disk not have disk copy? sheesh
19:26:30 <alise> anyone know of any tools to process hfv on linux :)
19:28:06 <ais523> hi alise
19:28:22 <alise> hi
19:28:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, how does Feather's OO bits work?
19:28:43 <alise> uh oh
19:28:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Quite well.
19:28:54 <alise> there, qusetion deflected
19:28:57 <alise> *question
19:28:58 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I haven't decided yet
19:28:59 <alise> you owe me one, ais523
19:29:04 <ais523> I have a vague idea, but it keeps changing
19:29:07 <ais523> alise: heh
19:29:10 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, futile.
19:29:26 <ais523> eventually, Phantom_Hoover will figure out that it's pointless to ask people questions they don't know the answer to
19:29:30 <ais523> either you'll get "I don't know", or a lie
19:29:34 <ais523> either way the answer is useless
19:29:46 <alise> ais523: preliminary KDE 4.5 review: ok, so I could use it, but why would I want to when I can just use GNOME instead?
19:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but I'm trying to work out which bits you don't know.
19:29:54 <alise> there's no reason not to
19:29:57 <ais523> alise: ah, OK
19:30:07 <ais523> it's not completely broken like it used to be, then?
19:30:22 <alise> ais523: indeed so
19:30:31 <ais523> I remember I used 4.1 for a while because there was something really wrong with GNOME then, but I can't remember what it is
19:30:31 <alise> it's just that the little complexities it loves to have make some stuff quite annoying
19:30:42 <ais523> *what it was
19:30:44 <alise> whereas GNOME's more conservative attitude helps here
19:31:07 <ais523> the Internet seems to have more people who hate Gnome than who hate KDE, for some reason
19:31:24 <alise> well, it's polarising. it used to be a bit more opinionated than it is now, i think.
19:31:39 <alise> also, more non-control freaks are using linux now
19:31:39 <ais523> meanwhile, Esolang spam is getting weirder and weirder
19:31:46 <alise> whereas you basically had to be a control freak to get it to work in the past
19:31:49 -!- Killerkid has joined.
19:31:51 <ais523> a spambot went and pasted in a dictionary definition of "trustworthy"
19:31:54 <alise> XD
19:32:00 <alise> Spammers: very trustworthy.
19:32:11 <ais523> on two different pages, both of which were spambot names
19:32:26 <ais523> the summary was "Test post"
19:32:50 * alise modifies a JFS filesystem from Macintosh System Software 7.5.5
19:33:02 <alise> I hope it doesn't try and create any resource forks.
19:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, can you salt things?
19:33:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes, and I do occasionally
19:33:35 <ais523> but it's not worth it unless they're under heavy spambot attack, normally spambots attack a page once then move on
19:33:36 -!- Atomix has left (?).
19:33:49 <ais523> also, I more commonly semisalt (which allows registered users to make a page, but bars anons)
19:34:10 * alise installs StuffIt Expander onto a Unix filesystem
19:34:15 <alise> this will surely work
19:35:10 <alise> [ehird@dinky StuffIt Expander� 5.5]$ ls
19:35:10 <alise> Icon? Read Us First! StuffIt Expander?
19:35:41 <ais523> wow, I have 354 log actions on Esolang
19:36:21 <alise> what's the log again? bans etc.?
19:36:40 <ais523> deletions, bans, pagemoves
19:36:54 <ais523> and something else important I'm forgetting
19:36:55 <ais523> oh, protections
19:37:06 <alise> [ehird@dinky mac]$ dd if=/dev/zero of=disk.hfv bs=1 count=104857600
19:37:11 <alise> i have a feeling this could go quicker
19:37:18 <ais523> "bs=1"?
19:37:32 <ais523> is there a reason to do it one byte at a time?
19:37:44 <alise> yes, i'm too lazy to divide the count
19:37:47 <ais523> also, why is dd's syntax unlike every other program on Unix?
19:37:49 <Vorpal> hi ais523
19:37:53 <alise> because it predates unix
19:37:54 <ais523> hi Vorpal
19:37:59 <ais523> alise: ah, that makes sense
19:38:16 <alise> "is most likely inspired from DD found in IBM JCL, and the command's syntax is meant to be reminiscent of this"
19:38:31 <alise> iirc on plan 9 dd has a unixy syntax :P
19:39:43 <alise> [ehird@dinky mac]$ dd if=/dev/zero of=disk.hfv bs=8192 count=12800
19:39:43 <alise> 12800+0 records in
19:39:44 <alise> 12800+0 records out
19:39:44 <alise> 104857600 bytes (105 MB) copied, 0.225616 s, 465 MB/s
19:39:46 <alise> that's better.
19:40:00 <ais523> "105 MB"
19:40:14 <ais523> even if you're going to use metric megabytes, you're rounding upwards, dd
19:40:22 <ais523> how dishonest of oyu
19:40:29 <ais523> *you
19:40:39 <ais523> hmm, I suppose metric megabytes /are/ standard for hard drives...
19:40:41 <alise> system 7.6 is mine! mwahahaha
19:41:01 <alise> thank god for illegal downloads, eh.
19:41:03 <alise> >_>
19:41:15 <alise> mac os 7.6 install folder ftw
19:41:46 <alise> To duplicate a disk partition as a disk image file on a remote machine over a secure ssh connection:
19:41:46 <alise> dd if=/dev/sdb2 | ssh user@host "dd of=/home/user/partition.image"
19:41:48 <alise> useless use of dd award
19:41:54 <Gregor> ais523: At least de facto standard.
19:42:07 <alise> they're the right standard too, really
19:42:09 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:42:20 <alise> binary only makes sense for SSDs where it's actually based on powers of two
19:42:24 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:42:25 <alise> decimal is consistent with the rest of the world
19:42:40 <Gregor> The rest of the world sucks.
19:42:43 <Gregor> Screw the rest of the world.
19:43:15 <alise> http://imgur.com/2Rana.png
19:43:19 <alise> Mac OS 7.6 installer. Discus.
19:43:21 <ais523> this is why I like the whole MiB syntax even though everyone else seems ot hate it
19:43:23 <ais523> *to hate it
19:43:29 <alise> Or javelin?
19:43:30 <ais523> it should generalise to non-computer units too, though
19:43:32 <alise> ais523: I like it.
19:43:40 <alise> ais523: although KiB is wrong; it should be kiB, for SI-consistency.
19:43:51 <ais523> yes, probably
19:43:55 <alise> hey, http://i.imgur.com/2Rana.png has antialiased text
19:43:55 * Sgeo hits alise with a frisbee
19:43:58 <alise> a first for the Mac OS?
19:43:58 <ais523> perhaps we should use kim for distances
19:44:09 <ais523> alise: is it /good/ antialiasing
19:44:22 <pikhq> I propose a new, AMERICAN unit of measuring data!
19:44:23 <alise> ais523: Uhh, it probably looked good on the CRTs of the time. i.imgur.com/2Rana.png
19:44:31 <alise> ais523: The font isn't exactly the best on-screen one, anyway.
19:44:41 <alise> Too tall and thin, with subtle serifs.
19:44:47 <alise> Especially not at /those/ resolutions.
19:44:59 <alise> Still, the actual antialiasing is acceptable.
19:45:34 <alise> "Please insert the disk: Mac OS 7.6".
19:45:34 <alise> Ah.
19:45:42 <alise> Disk Copy time!
19:46:07 <pikhq> The lib. There shall be 9 bits to the lib. And 36 libs to the bok. From there, well. Who needs more than a few boks anyways?
19:46:10 <ais523> what's Markdown's equivalent to MediaWiki's :
19:46:40 <alise> ais523: what does that do?
19:46:44 <alise> blockquote?
19:46:54 <ais523> <dd> tag, but it's normally used for indenting generally
19:47:03 <alise> a blockquote is
19:47:03 <alise> > foo
19:47:04 <alise> > bar
19:47:05 <alise> > baz
19:47:10 <ais523> hmm, that should probably work
19:47:14 <alise> email-style
19:50:49 <ais523> it doesn't, really
19:50:53 <ais523> at least not on gitorious
19:50:56 <ais523> I just won't indent
19:51:11 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, IIRC logs also record patrolling, although the MediaWiki used might be too old for that.
19:51:46 <ais523> it's new enough but has patrolling turned off
19:52:07 <ais523> it's only really useful on wikis so large that one person can't check all edits/pages themself
19:52:18 <ais523> whereas on Esolang, multiple people check each edit
19:52:23 -!- wareya has joined.
19:54:52 <alise> gah
19:54:55 <alise> how do i make this owrk
19:54:55 <Sgeo> "Perl is a general purpose language. It's also known to be the only widespread use obfuscated language."
19:54:57 <alise> *work
19:55:05 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:00:24 <alise> ais523: wow, I'm actually installing Gnash
20:00:48 <Sgeo> Doesn't Gnash suck, or something?
20:00:52 <alise> yep
20:00:56 <Sgeo> Time to put drops in my ears
20:05:16 <fizzie> alise: If you're making a zero-image with dd, it's worth a thought to "dd if=/dev/zero of=disk.hfv bs=1 count=0 seek=104857600", to make a sparse file. For a 100-meg image it probaly doesn't much matter, though.
20:05:38 <Phantom_Hoover> What're you trying to do?
20:06:25 <alise> last resort since i can't get youtube working
20:06:27 <alise> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UTZTPCj7xI
20:06:38 <alise> what actions are taken in this video to install 7.6.1? :P
20:08:25 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:08:58 <fizzie> Hrrm, that's a six-minute video to summarize.
20:09:28 <alise> I think most of it is the actual installation
20:09:31 <alise> *installation.
20:09:45 <alise> I only care about what I have to click to get the installer to not say "Insert the 7.6 disk, foo" when I run it from another disk.
20:12:27 <fizzie> Well, uh... it starts with "Apple Macintosh CD" on the desktop, then it auto-initializes the HD (I think the system will automatically ask it when your .hfv file is just zeros), after that it just runs the "Install Mac^{TM} OS" thing in the middle of "Apple Macintosh CD".
20:14:04 <alise> Oh.
20:14:20 <alise> fizzie: So it doesn't run "Installer"?
20:14:38 <fizzie> I don't see an "Installer" there.
20:14:55 <alise> So they must have copied the disk images to a disk somehow. But how?! Disk Copy says the .image files are invalid...
20:15:32 <alise> Come to think of it, what IS an .image?
20:15:35 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/ltr0 -- that's him starting the thing.
20:15:39 <alise> Something to be dd'd?
20:16:25 <fizzie> 7.5.5 is the only thing I've installed in BasiliskII, so don't know about 7.6's steps.
20:16:38 <alise> Install 1\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\200\20
20:16:41 <alise> is how Install 1.image starts.
20:17:26 <alise> aha
20:17:31 <alise> they're virtual disk image things
20:20:28 -!- Gregor has joined.
20:21:15 <alise> dammit
20:21:17 <alise> they're separate disks :D
20:21:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, are you installing an old version of Mac OS?
20:22:15 <alise> yes
20:22:23 <alise> fuck yeah 19 mounted disks
20:22:27 <alise> u no im hardcore
20:23:26 <Phantom_Hoover> To what end‽
20:24:14 <fizzie> All the cool kids are doing it! I just installed OS 9.2 on the iBook. (If you can call installing OS X's "classic support" with the software recovery thing, that.)
20:24:28 <Vorpal> <alise> ais523: Uhh, it probably looked good on the CRTs of the time. i.imgur.com/2Rana.png <-- looks pre-rendered compared to the button below
20:24:36 <alise> of course it is
20:25:24 <alise> it seems that old Mac OS has a limit to the number of mounted disks at one time
20:25:24 <alise> fun
20:25:27 <alise> either that or basilisk ii does
20:25:31 <Vorpal> alise, OS 9 (probably 8 too?) had quite nice grayscale antialias
20:25:34 <Vorpal> greyscale*
20:25:43 <alise> i think that was new in 9
20:25:47 <Vorpal> alise, ah
20:25:56 <Vorpal> alise, that is a good reason to prefer 9 over 8 then
20:26:19 <Vorpal> alise, btw why were you asking me about sheepshaver? weren't you playing around with it this spring?
20:26:29 <Vorpal> or was that OS 9 on real mac?
20:26:47 <alise> i had os 8 or 9 on a real mac (I forget which) recently, yes
20:26:53 <alise> i tried sheepshaver a long while ago
20:26:59 <alise> recently = a year ago or so
20:27:07 <alise> Vorpal: gahh this sucks so much
20:27:11 <alise> limited mounted things
20:27:37 <alise> or wait
20:27:38 <alise> wtf
20:27:39 <alise> hmm
20:28:44 <alise> Vorpal: vMac made this a lot easier ...
20:28:47 <alise> you could swap disks at runtime
20:36:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, again, to what end?
20:36:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: he says, in #esoteric
20:36:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So just for the lulz?
20:36:53 <alise> yep
20:38:23 <Sgeo> Grr
20:38:31 <Sgeo> Website requires cpalead.com to be fully functional
20:38:33 <Sgeo> Grrrrr
20:40:32 <Sgeo> Also, I loathe explorer
20:44:21 <alise> Mac OS 7.6.toast 250 Mb
20:44:24 <alise> Toast? Seriously?!
20:45:06 <pikhq> Guess what it runs on.
20:45:36 <alise> pikhq: ?
20:45:39 <alise> oh
20:45:39 <alise> heh
20:45:50 <alise> roxio toast is just a silly old mac burner
20:45:54 <alise> useless file format for me though
20:45:59 <alise> i need an .iso i think, not sure
20:46:52 <alise> Details for file extension: TOAST - Toast CD Image File (Sonic Solutions) - Toast 6 runs on Mac OS X only. This is basically an .ISO file.
20:46:53 <alise> oh cool
20:47:11 <alise> pikhq: question: is /dev/cdrom the same format as an .iso?
20:47:18 <alise> that is, can I supply a foo.iso where ordinarily I would pass /dev/cdrom?
20:47:39 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
20:47:42 <alise> woot
20:49:59 -!- alise_ has joined.
20:53:01 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:55:38 <pikhq> Fucking hell... A quarter of high school students drop out of high school in the US.
20:55:46 <pikhq> *High school*.
20:57:04 <alise_> as opposed to high school students dropping out of middle school
20:57:25 <Gregor> And a quarter of those who don't drop out pass in spite of being high in school.
20:57:40 <pikhq> alise_: The thing is, even a complete idiot can graduate from a US high school.
20:58:13 <pikhq> I got a B average through high school and I did hardly *anything* for much of it.
21:00:09 -!- Flonk has joined.
21:00:34 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, that may just be a sign of genius.
21:01:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Correctly answering multiple choice questions is hardly a "sign of genius".
21:04:00 -!- tombom has joined.
21:04:06 <alise_> ffff
21:04:14 <alise_> how do you unpack a .sit_.bin in mac os >_>
21:04:30 -!- kitabuki has joined.
21:04:32 <alise_> oh, like that
21:04:35 <alise_> hi kitabuki
21:05:44 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: vMac made this a lot easier ...
21:05:44 <Vorpal> <alise> you could swap disks at runtime <-- hm
21:06:05 <Vorpal> alise_, I think you can have several with basilisk and such
21:06:10 <alise_> yes, but it's limited
21:06:17 <Vorpal> alise_, anyway I managed to install it from a set of floppies from apple
21:06:19 <alise_> i'm pretty sure
21:06:28 <alise_> Vorpal: yes, i have a set of floppies (19 + one installer)
21:06:36 <alise_> unfortunately when i mount them all, my installation disk is not mounted.
21:06:52 <Vorpal> alise_, I think I put the floppy images on a hfs partition then mounted them with disk copy?
21:07:07 <alise_> ahahahaha, unfortunately disk copy doesn't want to mount these.
21:07:11 <alise_> it says they're BAD AND WRONG AND EVIL
21:07:14 -!- kitabuki has quit (Client Quit).
21:08:12 <Vorpal> alise_, mine were *.img I think
21:08:28 <Vorpal> alise_, I used 7.5.5 thingy from apple
21:08:36 <Vorpal> alise_, not from macintoshgarden
21:08:40 <alise_> [[SwedeBear I download the file and moved the .zip into Basilisk II and used StuffIt to unzip it, up to that point everything works good. I now have to files: Apple Mac OS 7.6 CD.image and _Apple Mac OS 7.6 CD.image, neither mounts in ShrinkWrap or StuffIt. What do I have to do to make it work inside OS 7.5.5?]] i wish this file was still there sigh
21:08:41 <alise_> :<
21:09:01 <Vorpal> alise_, um what?
21:09:05 <alise_> nothing
21:09:16 <Vorpal> alise_, the _ one is probably a resource fork
21:09:20 <alise_> shit either doesn't work or is no longer on the net
21:09:21 <alise_> no
21:09:23 <alise_> it was a quote from a forum
21:09:26 <alise_> demonstrating that it has an .image
21:09:28 <alise_> of the CD
21:09:30 <alise_> (which is what I need)
21:09:48 <Vorpal> alise_, I have an OS 9 CD image. And I think I have the set of floppy images I used somewhere too
21:09:54 <alise_> There are more seeders now for the Apple Legacy Software Recovery CD torrent, so speeds have probably picked up.
21:09:54 <alise_> For anyone else interested in getting this without bothering with the torrent, here's a direct download:
21:09:54 <alise_> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TF755K5F
21:09:54 <alise_> yay
21:10:14 <alise_> Vorpal: 7.6(.1) is all i care about :P
21:10:16 <alise_> well, apart from system 6
21:10:18 <alise_> but that's trivially obtained
21:10:31 <alise_> and still possibly the most usable OS ever released ;)
21:10:47 <Vorpal> alise_, OS 9 has very nice AA though :P
21:10:57 <alise_> *something that expresses the intent of ;) without being the creepy paedophile smiley (that is, ";)")
21:11:31 <alise_> something i don't like about old Macintosh operating systems is that you have to hold the mouse button down to keep a menu open
21:11:40 <alise_> I get the whole non-modality thing and all, but it gives me carpal tunnel
21:12:33 <Vorpal> alise_, how is ";)" a "creepy paedophile smiley"?
21:12:41 <alise_> that's what it looks like
21:12:47 <alise_> anyone saying ;) instantly seems reepy
21:12:47 <Vorpal> alise_, you don't have to hold it down in OS 9
21:12:48 <alise_> *creepy
21:12:48 <Vorpal> :P
21:13:03 <Vorpal> alise_, no that is a wink with the eye
21:13:07 <alise_> oh come on, everyone agrees os 9 was the worst classic mac os
21:13:17 <alise_> i know that ;) is a wink. but it's creepy. to everyone. trust me
21:13:18 <Vorpal> alise_, I don't.
21:13:28 <Vorpal> alise_, no it isn't. it's just you
21:13:32 <alise_> Vorpal: that is merely because you are nostalgic and remember it
21:13:39 <alise_> and no, this isn't just my opinion
21:13:58 <alise_> i have seen it expressed a great many times, a lot in this channel
21:14:09 <Vorpal> alise_, considering the population of earth very very few specific opinions will be unique
21:14:33 <alise_> I don't use retarded loopholes like you do, so no need to worry about that.
21:14:39 <Vorpal> alise_, hah
21:14:43 <alise_> 3% [> ] 21,423,692 231K/s eta 54m 47s
21:14:45 <alise_> That should go faster.
21:14:48 <Vorpal> alise_, of what?
21:14:50 <alise_> I would like that to go faster. Go faster, that.
21:14:59 <Vorpal> alise_, is that the megaupload url?
21:15:09 <alise_> Vorpal: Yes. It's a ton of Mac OSes; I want it for 7.6.1.
21:15:25 <Vorpal> alise_, downloading that too: 9 minutes remaining, 162 of 578 MB (833 KB/sec)
21:15:25 <Vorpal> :P
21:15:37 <alise_> Vorpal: :<
21:15:40 <Vorpal> alise_, no I don't have premium account
21:15:42 <alise_> Vorpal: But my connection gets those speeds!
21:15:46 <alise_> Just not on this download.
21:15:55 <alise_> I don't suppose you're willing to mirror that somewhere more European?
21:16:00 <Vorpal> 8 minutes remaining
21:16:02 <alise_> :P
21:16:27 <Vorpal> alise_, the closest server I have where I could put it is in LA, CA, US
21:16:41 <Vorpal> alise_, I would be willing to use this to seed the torrent however
21:16:49 <Vorpal> alise_, if you /msg me details of it
21:17:09 <alise_> (btw, Mac OS 8 < 8.5 == Mac OS 7.7, pretty much)
21:17:22 <Vorpal> alise_, I assume you will seed to at least a 1.5 ratio without interruptions (except for computer being shut down)
21:17:24 <Vorpal> in that case
21:17:32 <alise_> Vorpal: what's your upload?
21:17:42 <Vorpal> alise_, about 80 KiB/s
21:17:51 <alise_> i'm downloading at 300 KiB/s
21:17:53 <alise_> so I'll pass
21:17:56 <Vorpal> hm
21:17:59 <alise_> well
21:18:02 <alise_> now it's 170 KiB/s
21:18:04 <alise_> but still more than 80
21:18:06 <Vorpal> alise_, 6 minutes remaining
21:18:10 <alise_> 49
21:18:12 <Vorpal> 829 KB/s
21:18:22 <Vorpal> ooh 879 KB/s
21:18:25 <Vorpal> that is unlikely
21:18:33 <Vorpal> it exceeds the theoretical limit
21:18:43 <Vorpal> 8 megabit/second down
21:18:47 <alise_> woo, the torrent is 404'd.
21:18:57 <Vorpal> it shouldn't be possible to get *sustained* speeds above 800 KB/s
21:19:02 <Vorpal> on 8 megabit/second down
21:19:12 <alise_> Vorpal: um, it's 1024 KiB/s
21:19:15 <Vorpal> sure peeks might be due to buffering or ATM transfer mode or such
21:19:24 <Vorpal> alise_, yes but with overhead...
21:19:32 <Vorpal> alise_, of protocols
21:19:34 <Vorpal> and so on
21:19:39 <alise_> Vorpal: probably not 224 bytes of overhead.
21:20:10 <Vorpal> alise_, other traffic. I'm youtube-dling at 130 KB/s in another tab
21:20:34 <alise_> Vorpal: btw, you may want to "mplayer $(youtube-dl -b -g ...url...)" to watch stuff in real time
21:20:36 <alise_> maybe with a -cache option
21:20:40 <alise_> rather than waiting for the download
21:20:51 <Vorpal> alise_, but then I noticed that sometimes I get burst up speeds in excess of 2 MB/s. And the bursts are often lasts several seconds
21:21:05 <Vorpal> then it "calms down" to the normal speed
21:21:44 <Vorpal> alise_, youtube-dl blah & wait until it says about 20 % vlc blah
21:21:46 <Vorpal> is what I do
21:21:58 <alise_> Vorpal: ugh, vlc
21:22:04 <alise_> you do realise vlc can do youtube natively?
21:22:06 <alise_> (but it ~never works)
21:22:13 <Vorpal> alise_, yes I know it never works
21:22:13 <alise_> anyway, point is you don't have to do the waiting manually
21:22:33 <alise_> assuming you use something which can actually play urls without being retarded
21:22:34 <alise_> i.e. mplayer
21:22:42 <Vorpal> alise_, you know what happens when I don't? It takes too long to download
21:23:20 <alise_> o_O
21:23:23 <Vorpal> I measured that for 10 minute HD I need to wait until 20-25% until I can start watching if I don't want to end up stalling around 80% or 90%
21:23:37 <alise_> so use a big -cache
21:24:02 <Vorpal> alise_, meh, this works and I often don't want to watch it right away anyway
21:24:26 * alise_ wonders how fast you can virtualise x86 code on x86 (i.e. running on the CPU natively for the most part, but unable to affect anything outside without going through the virtualising software)
21:24:45 <Vorpal> alise_, usually when I do want to watch right away it is periodicvideos or sixtysymbols, and then I queue several downloads and start the first after 20%
21:24:48 <alise_> why? nanokernel OS that runs all processes under this and just lets them message-pass :D
21:24:49 <Vorpal> no stall later on then
21:24:58 <Vorpal> alise_, download done!
21:24:59 <Vorpal> :)
21:25:17 <alise_> 23% [========> ] 141,469,942 180K/s eta 41m 27s f
21:25:31 <alise_> Vorpal: let's race it against airmailnet
21:25:38 <Vorpal> alise_, eh?
21:25:50 <Vorpal> alise_, anyway do you have a checksum for it?
21:25:53 <alise_> (delegates to wheelsnet and sneakernet at both endpoints)
21:25:58 <alise_> *wheelnet
21:26:08 <Vorpal> alise_, what?
21:26:13 <alise_> Vorpal: i.e. send it to me in the post :P
21:26:31 <Vorpal> alise_, hah that would take longer
21:27:12 <Vorpal> $ file Apple_Legacy_CD.iso
21:27:12 <Vorpal> Apple_Legacy_CD.iso: data
21:27:17 <Vorpal> alise_, that doesn't look good at all
21:27:27 <alise_> Vorpal: hmm.
21:27:39 <alise_> Vorpal: try s!/dev/cdrom!that! in basilisk ii prefs
21:27:43 <alise_> dear keyboard: please let this key reattach
21:27:56 <Vorpal> alise_, I will try to put it in the GUI :P
21:28:17 <Vorpal> alise_, just sending it to the right computer over sshfs
21:28:38 <alise_> yes, to protect that secret, secret iso file
21:29:03 <Vorpal> alise_, no, because I don't have nfs set up to laptop and I already had sshfs mounted
21:29:08 <ais523> alise_: to be fair, ssh tends to be faster
21:29:12 <Vorpal> I use sshfs because it is easy
21:29:16 <ais523> because it compresses en route
21:29:33 <Vorpal> no need to mess with configs
21:29:35 <Vorpal> apart from ssh
21:29:39 <Vorpal> and I have that set up anyway
21:31:26 <Vorpal> alise_, I have no /dev/cdrom in that prefs file
21:31:35 <alise_> hmm good point
21:31:39 <alise_> maybe it's in the SCSI section
21:31:47 <Vorpal> what format is the line
21:31:48 <Vorpal> I forgot
21:32:17 <Vorpal> alise_, ah it is cdrom <path>
21:32:20 <Vorpal> and it seems to boot from it
21:32:27 <Vorpal> 7.6.1
21:32:29 <alise_> so it works?
21:32:30 <alise_> good
21:32:33 <alise_> Vorpal: yeah, it'll have the installers
21:32:37 <alise_> for up to 8.0 i think
21:32:38 <alise_> or maybe 8.5
21:32:39 <Vorpal> alise_, whoo Newton!
21:32:42 <alise_> many many installers
21:32:43 <alise_> Newton?
21:32:45 <alise_> what about it
21:32:46 <Vorpal> alise_, yes!
21:32:52 <Vorpal> alise_, there is a folder on the CD
21:32:54 <Vorpal> with that name
21:32:57 <alise_> hehe
21:33:02 <Vorpal> and surely you know what it is!
21:33:04 <alise_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Apple_Newton_and_iPhone.jpg
21:33:28 <Vorpal> alise_, well, the newton had a larger screen
21:33:45 <Vorpal> alise_, and is that a vertical antenna at the top?
21:34:22 <alise_> i think so
21:34:35 <alise_> 44% [================> ] 269,363,186 332K/s eta 27m 25s f
21:34:50 <Vorpal> alise_, System 1.0, 2.0.1, 5.0, 5.1, ...
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21:35:01 <Vorpal> what happened to 2.0, 3.* and 4.*?
21:35:11 <alise_> Vorpal: i forget, but there was no 2 and 3
21:35:16 <alise_> iirc
21:35:21 <Vorpal> there is 2.0.1 there
21:35:23 <Vorpal> so what about 4
21:35:31 <alise_> oh, there were
21:35:33 <Vorpal> alise_, there is up to 8.1 btw
21:35:39 <alise_> 1, 2, 3 and 4 were basically identical
21:35:52 <alise_> system software 2.01 = system 4.0 or 4.1
21:36:08 <alise_> system software version =/= system evrsion =/= finder version
21:36:14 <alise_> in the early days
21:36:26 <Vorpal> Apple SW A-D, E-M and N-Z
21:36:27 <Vorpal> hm
21:36:34 <Vorpal> alise_, is there a *non*-legacy cd too?
21:36:41 <Vorpal> like for 8.5 - 9.0
21:36:59 <alise_> Vorpal: i dunno, this is 68k
21:37:05 <alise_> so for ppc... i don't know
21:37:08 <Vorpal> alise_, 8.1 came for 68k?
21:37:11 <alise_> yes
21:37:14 <alise_> 8.5 was the first ppc-only version
21:37:16 <Vorpal> why on earth
21:37:19 <alise_> Vorpal: 8.1 is nothing like 8.5
21:37:29 <alise_> 8 <= version < 8.5 is more like Mac OS 7.6
21:37:31 <Vorpal> alise_, didn't 8.1 use the grayish theme?
21:37:33 <alise_> than Mac OS 8 as you know it
21:37:41 <alise_> Vorpal: yes, but
21:37:45 <alise_> apart from appearance
21:37:50 <alise_> it's basically the next major release of 7
21:37:53 <Vorpal> alise_, A/UX!
21:37:57 <alise_> 8.5 is when it started on the path towards 9
21:38:02 <alise_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/MacOS81_screenshot.png
21:38:04 <alise_> BMW CyberDrive!
21:38:19 <alise_> Emate 300! It's like a Newton but NOT!
21:38:21 <Vorpal> alise_, there is god damn Lisa stuff on there
21:38:23 <alise_> Movies from MARS
21:38:33 <Vorpal> Lisa O/S 3.1
21:38:36 <Vorpal> Lisa Pascal Workshop
21:38:53 <alise_> O/S heh
21:39:01 <Vorpal> says so in the dir name yes
21:39:18 <Vorpal> Mac OS Runtime for Java 1.5.1
21:39:29 <Vorpal> MacTCP Token Ring Extension haha
21:39:36 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:39:51 <alise_> one token ring to rule them all...
21:39:58 -!- tombom has joined.
21:40:10 <Vorpal> alise_, I can't find MPW though
21:40:26 <alise_> i think it is just OS software.
21:40:59 <Vorpal> there is colorsync and quicktime too
21:41:20 <Vorpal> and peripheral drivers
21:41:50 <Vorpal> alise_, newton seems to have had stylewriter drivers
21:42:01 <Vorpal> alise_, I wonder if you could hook up a printer to an iphone?
21:42:03 <Vorpal> I bet not
21:42:59 <alise_> sure, network printer
21:43:28 <alise_> also perhaps bluetooth, i think ipad does bluetooth at least since it has the keyboard
21:43:34 <alise_> don't think the iphone does though
21:43:43 <alise_> nope, it has bluetooth
21:43:48 <alise_> although apparently it's a bit rubbish
21:43:57 <alise_> 89% [=================================> ] 540,800,200 837K/s eta 3m 47s f
21:43:59 <alise_> Vorpal: HA HA
21:44:25 <Vorpal> alise_, what about it?
21:44:29 <Vorpal> alise_, I'm already done :P
21:44:37 <alise_> i have superiorised your speed
21:44:42 <alise_> 840 KiB/s. sustained
21:44:43 <Vorpal> alise_, no
21:44:44 <alise_> beyotch
21:45:06 <Vorpal> alise_, I said I got 873 KB/s max, and near the end I got 860 KB/s sustained
21:45:10 <Vorpal> so you fail
21:45:25 <alise_> but you said that was impossible
21:45:28 <alise_> i am accentuating the unpossible
21:45:30 <alise_> so die on the floor
21:45:49 <alise_> A A A DOWNLOADED
21:45:52 <alise_> I WILL HAL IT
21:46:01 <Vorpal> alise_, well I think I sometimes get more bw than I pay for :P
21:46:59 <Vorpal> btw why does both's font looks as slightly less ugly Comic sans? <alise_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Apple_Newton_and_iPhone.jpg
21:47:50 <alise_> lol @ those apples background
21:47:51 <alise_> appl appl appl
21:48:11 <alise_> Vorpal: because newton used such a font for note taking
21:48:22 <alise_> and the iphone uses Marker Felt for Notes, which irritates EVERYONE
21:48:22 -!- Vegabondmx has joined.
21:48:30 <alise_> (John Gruber actually fiddled around with system files just to get it to use something else)
21:48:31 <Vorpal> alise_, yes I noticed, also you get image corruption when you open a second-level dir with a large window and then drags that window about
21:48:39 <Vorpal> screen corruption on desktop
21:48:42 <alise_> Vorpal: how big is your screen?
21:48:47 <alise_> set to
21:48:51 <Vorpal> let me check
21:49:09 <Vorpal> screen win/1024/600
21:49:10 <Vorpal> alise_, ^
21:49:10 <alise_> i like the statistics it gives you for untranslated instructions
21:49:15 <alise_> Rank Opc Count Name
21:49:15 <alise_> 000: a975 1545452 ILLEGAL
21:49:15 <alise_> 001: e541 283685 ASL
21:49:15 <alise_> 002: a822 278293 ILLEGAL
21:49:15 <alise_> 003: a873 244811 ILLEGAL
21:49:16 <alise_> 004: a88f 231497 ILLEGAL
21:49:18 <alise_> so many illegal opcodes
21:49:26 <alise_> Vorpal: yeah, uh, you can't really expect stability with a non-standard res.
21:49:35 <Vorpal> alise_, yes that is only with JIT and JIT is somewhat buggy
21:49:40 <alise_> 512x384 is safe. everything else is hit-and-miss
21:49:45 <alise_> is the jit buggy?
21:49:46 <Vorpal> alise_, well... that is too small
21:49:47 <alise_> works for me
21:49:54 <alise_> it's what you had back in the day
21:49:54 <alise_> deal
21:49:58 <Vorpal> alise_, without JIT some old games work
21:50:05 <Vorpal> with it they fail with illegal instruction
21:50:12 <alise_> ohh the iso is so nicely organised :3
21:50:20 <Vorpal> alise_, yes now to find a PPC one
21:50:25 <alise_> no 68k is my love forever
21:50:30 <alise_> lovely little architecture
21:51:10 * alise_ installs OSS to get sound working
21:52:04 <Vorpal> alise_, where did you find the legacy software recovery cd?
21:52:08 <Vorpal> macintoshgarden?
21:52:16 <alise_> Vorpal: yes, the forums
21:52:17 <alise_> http://www.macintoshgarden.org/forum/ndif-disk-copy-basilisk-ii-system-76-and-headaches
21:52:23 <alise_> after gratuitous amounts of googling
21:53:14 <Vorpal> alise_, http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/be-os-macworld-preview-release
21:54:56 <alise_> cute
21:55:19 <alise_> anyone know how to unload alsa modules?
21:55:41 <Vorpal> http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/apple-system-software-recovery-1-dated-1998
21:55:51 <Vorpal> alise_, kill everything using sound first probably
21:56:01 <alise_> wait, it seems to have done it itself
21:56:05 <alise_> or not
21:56:37 <alise_> going to try rebooting
21:56:45 <alise_> brb
21:56:50 -!- alise_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:57:19 * pikhq officially has more games than any one person could play. Or want to play, for that matter.
21:59:06 -!- alise has joined.
21:59:13 <alise> Fuck yeah! gnome-volume-control does OSS.
21:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, how?
21:59:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I have all the games for: NES, SNES, N64, FDS, GB, GBC, GBA.
22:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> "All" in the sense of every last one?
22:00:17 <alise> pikhq: context?
22:00:23 <pikhq> 14:56 * pikhq officially has more games than any one person could play. Or want to play, for that matter.
22:00:36 <alise> Wait. EVERY SINGLE N64 game?
22:00:39 <alise> EVERY SINGLE GBA game?
22:00:45 <alise> The latter is simply not possible!
22:01:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: In the sense of "every single one that was actually put on a cartridge and sold" (and a superset of that, actually...)
22:01:15 <alise> Vorpal: Do you know how to disable the Unix FS?
22:01:21 <alise> pikhq: How do you have all GBA games.
22:01:26 <Vorpal> alise, why would you want to
22:01:35 <Vorpal> alise, it is very useful to transfer downloaded fs to it
22:01:36 <Vorpal> err
22:01:38 <pikhq> alise: ~/games/emulation/GBA
22:01:38 <alise> ah, setting it to false works
22:01:39 <Vorpal> downloaded files
22:01:40 <pikhq> :)
22:01:43 <alise> Vorpal: well, ok
22:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, BLATANT LIES
22:01:48 <alise> pikhq: But how.
22:01:49 <Vorpal> alise, just pointing it to a subdir not /
22:01:58 * alise makes Unix folder
22:01:59 <Vorpal> alise, I use ~/mac/shared
22:02:06 <Vorpal> well full path in config
22:02:09 <Vorpal> well,*
22:02:11 <pikhq> alise: It's a mere 24GB when uncompressed.
22:02:13 <Phantom_Hoover> But wait, someone was obviously dumping them...
22:02:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:02:50 <alise> <JIT compiler> : gather statistics on untranslated insns count
22:02:51 <alise> <JIT compiler> : gather statistics on translation time
22:02:53 <alise> Is it possible to disable this?
22:02:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, do you have them legally?
22:03:00 <alise> Vorpal: hahahaha
22:03:01 <Vorpal> alise, yes by disabling the JIT :P
22:03:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not only no but hell no.
22:03:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, *phew*
22:03:17 <alise> Vorpal: omg it DOES have A/UX
22:03:24 <Vorpal> alise, I said so
22:03:25 <Vorpal> above
22:03:29 <Vorpal> alise, please *READ*
22:03:30 <alise> sexiest .iso ever
22:03:35 <alise> Vorpal: i thought you were just saying yay A/UX
22:03:37 <alise> not OMG THIS HAS A/UX.
22:03:40 <Vorpal> alise, it is CD 4 of 4
22:03:45 <alise> this thing is a national treasure
22:03:48 <alise> Vorpal: who cares about the other 3
22:03:49 <alise> they probably suck
22:03:54 <alise> this thing has all anyone could ever want
22:03:55 <pikhq> Hooray A/UX!
22:04:02 <Vorpal> alise, first has apple application software, the next two have PPC OS software
22:04:06 <alise> A/UX, it's got what plants crave!
22:04:31 <Vorpal> alise, you could set up an appleshare server!
22:05:20 <alise> is there a way to make a disk appear as a hard disk, not a floppy, to the OS?
22:05:34 <Vorpal> alise, not that I know of. And it doesn't really matter
22:05:41 <alise> except it can't be formatted :)
22:05:55 <Vorpal> alise, so use two images
22:06:01 <Vorpal> one for each partition
22:06:02 <Vorpal> or such
22:06:11 <alise> i just meant for wiping
22:06:11 <alise> :P
22:06:19 <alise> "Ethernet Interface: eth0"
22:06:21 <alise> Whyever not?
22:06:28 <pikhq> alise: The sad thing is, most console emulators appear to suck. Especially for more recent systems.
22:06:30 <Vorpal> alise, um? dd if=/dev/zero of=diskimage
22:06:31 <Vorpal> :P
22:06:43 <alise> "Cannot open /dev/sheep_net (No such file or directory). Ethernet will not be available."
22:06:45 <alise> Aww...
22:06:49 <Vorpal> alise, don't use that one
22:06:52 <Vorpal> alise, it doesn't work
22:06:57 <Vorpal> with modern kernels
22:07:00 <alise> "Tunnel MacOS Networking over UDP"
22:07:01 <alise> Ooh...
22:07:01 <Vorpal> alise, there is an user space one
22:07:06 <alise> That sounds nice.
22:07:10 <Vorpal> alise, the user space one is the only one that works
22:07:10 <alise> Does it work?
22:07:17 <alise> Is that the user space one?
22:07:23 <Vorpal> alise, hm let me check
22:07:38 <Vorpal> alise, slirp
22:07:41 <Vorpal> is userface
22:07:43 <Vorpal> err
22:07:44 <alise> okay
22:07:44 <Vorpal> userspace*
22:07:53 <alise> does it work out of the box?
22:08:05 <Vorpal> alise, and tunneling probably works but it needs another sheepshaver as the end poiint
22:08:07 <Vorpal> point*
22:08:11 <Vorpal> no internet connection iirc
22:08:17 <Vorpal> alise, slirp works out of box for me
22:08:41 <alise> interestingly, it crashes the first time
22:08:43 <alise> but then works after that
22:08:54 <Vorpal> alise, um, probably unrelated
22:08:56 <Vorpal> worked for me
22:09:02 <alise> yeah it happens even for normal stuff with me
22:09:03 <alise> segfault
22:09:05 <alise> probably jit weirdness
22:09:28 <alise> "System Software by CPU" haha
22:09:50 <alise> sweet
22:09:52 <alise> all the installers automount
22:10:02 <alise> Vorpal: apple sure took a lot of care with this disk
22:10:11 <alise> everything Just Works :P
22:10:17 <alise> yay installing 7.6.1
22:10:37 <pikhq> alise: Well, yes. It's classic Apple. They prided themselves on that then.
22:10:51 <alise> Vorpal: huh, i get visual distortion here too
22:10:55 <alise> only with JIT?
22:10:59 <Vorpal> alise, I was not using JIT
22:11:06 <alise> strange
22:11:12 <alise> oh well, basilisk II is buggy
22:11:14 <alise> everyone knows that
22:11:24 <Vorpal> alise, I thought you said it was sheepshaver that was :P
22:11:38 <alise> wow, you're right, it loads extensions ludicrously fast
22:11:40 <alise> Vorpal: well yeah. that too
22:11:48 <alise> AIEE the trash is more to the left than the other two icons
22:12:04 <Vorpal> alise, it loads extensions faster than any real mac that ran those OSes even without JIT
22:12:11 <Vorpal> JIT just makes it flicker past
22:12:11 <Gregor> /usr/bin/ld: fatal error: out of file descriptors and couldn't close any
22:12:13 <Gregor> ... awesome
22:12:19 <alise> Gregor: XD
22:12:19 <pikhq> Gregor: Dang.
22:12:23 <Vorpal> Gregor, how?
22:12:27 <Gregor> WebKit
22:12:30 <alise> I'm here to kick ass and close file descriptors, and I'm all out of file descriptors.
22:12:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, how many files is it trying to link at once
22:12:39 <pikhq> Ah, WebKit. Linker abuse.
22:12:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: A metric lot.
22:12:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes.
22:12:52 <alise> "How many files is it trying to link at once?" "Yes."
22:13:01 <alise> a perfectly cromulent response
22:13:17 <pikhq> alise: So I like giving "Yes" additional semantics.
22:13:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, I suggest you put them in a hanful of *.a and use the whole archive option to force include the entire archive (including unreferenced files from outside)
22:13:21 <alise> Iiiiit's iCab time!
22:13:25 <Vorpal> handful*
22:13:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: I wasn't really planning on linking manually X-P
22:13:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, ah
22:13:55 <alise> iCab 2.9.9. It's got what 68k users crave!
22:14:00 <alise> http://www.icab.de/download.php?os=68k&lang=en
22:14:01 <Gregor> This is with gold. Original ld segfaults.
22:14:07 <alise> Argh does anyone have a copy of Stuffit.
22:14:26 <Vorpal> alise, is it shareware or not?
22:14:41 <alise> iCab? Dunno.
22:14:43 <alise> Stuffit? Yes.
22:14:46 <alise> Well, not in those days.
22:14:54 <Vorpal> alise, I have stuffit keys btw somewhere
22:15:07 <Vorpal> alise, have quicktime pro key too I think
22:15:47 <alise> stuffit /expander/ is free
22:15:49 <alise> on old mac os
22:15:56 <alise> ehh
22:15:58 <alise> i can copy it off another disk
22:16:18 <Vorpal> alise, I refuse to comment on origin and you are absolutely not welcome to inquire in /msg about a non-existent wide selection of keys for old mac software. :P
22:16:51 <alise> Duuude, your metaphysics is, like, acid, maaan.
22:17:02 <alise> I can't taaaaaake it.
22:17:07 <Vorpal> alise, metaphysics how?
22:17:14 <alise> The, existence, man.
22:17:19 <Vorpal> ah
22:17:34 <Sgeo> Royco
22:17:37 <Sgeo> Cup of soup
22:18:02 <Gregor> Pfft, it's a mere 1,614 object files.
22:18:24 <alise> Konqueror history: "Clearly it should be ordered by domain."
22:18:47 <alise> "Also, have no way to disable this."
22:19:13 <Sgeo> Sounds GNOMEish
22:19:24 <alise> No, GNOME would have no way to disable it, but it wouldn't sort by damn domain in the first place.
22:19:56 <Vorpal> alise, and if it had a way to disable it, you would have to use gconf to reach it
22:20:09 <Vorpal> alise, there is a balance between zzoishness and gnomishness though
22:20:11 <alise> Yes, but again, it wouldn't do that in the first place. :P
22:20:24 <Vorpal> alise, I think sorting by day then domain is a good idea
22:20:34 <alise> Yeah; Konqueror does it the other way around.
22:20:38 <Vorpal> okay
22:20:40 <Vorpal> that is silly
22:20:48 <alise> Or at least, groups visits to a domain from ages ago into the same domain thing, even if it's at the top for most recent.
22:20:53 <alise> Vorpal: GNOME is becoming less and less extreme-GNOMEish each release, anyway.
22:21:04 <alise> And KDE 4 is becoming more... KDE 4. Which is more confusing than anything else.
22:21:19 <alise> At least I could tell what KDE 3 was "all about"; I'm not sure what KDE SC 4's goals are at all.
22:21:28 <Gregor> KDE 4 = badsauce
22:21:35 <alise> I think they're to seem to work like GNOME on the surface, but then ... not work at all underneath.
22:21:43 <Vorpal> alise, actually I seen both directions in GNOME. Like that "make pressing key while hovering menu item change shortcut". Useful. Used to be available in GUI config
22:21:43 <Sgeo> KDE4 is not to be ingested
22:21:47 <Vorpal> nowdays it is gconf only
22:22:01 <pikhq> alise: Makes you wish they had just ported KDE 3 to Qt 4 and called it a day.
22:22:01 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, although it may be useful it's... really confusing if you trigger it by accident.
22:22:17 <alise> Vorpal: Anyway, overall GNOME is definitely getting better.
22:22:26 <pikhq> Qt 4 is awesome. KDE 3 was awesome. Combine it and you get double-awesome.
22:22:39 <Vorpal> alise, well I find gnome-terminal default key bindings for switching and moving tabs around is just unusable
22:22:44 <Vorpal> I prefer konsole style for that
22:22:49 <alise> KDE 3 wasn't awesome, IMO. But it's more understandable than KDE 4.
22:22:53 <Vorpal> so extremely useful option
22:22:56 <alise> Vorpal: Yeah, but I mean, overall.
22:23:07 <alise> Aladdin Expander, wow, it's not even called Stuffit.
22:23:12 <alise> oh, it is
22:23:14 <Vorpal> alise, KDE3 was KDE3. That had both downsides and upsides
22:23:16 <alise> just not the installer filename
22:23:16 <pikhq> alise: Okay, yeah, it wasn't actually awesome, but it was... I dunno. Very much usable.
22:23:24 <alise> Version 5.5 from 1999 (or at least with a copyright date ending 1999)
22:23:30 <pikhq> With just a handful of really stupid things.
22:23:33 <Sgeo> The Ctrl-Alt-A thing in the window manager was awesome
22:23:34 <pikhq> (ARTs!)
22:23:36 <Sgeo> That still exists, right?
22:23:42 <alise> pikhq: It was /understandable/. You used KDE 3 and you knew exactly what it was aiming for.
22:23:49 <Vorpal> alise, exactly
22:23:51 <alise> And this might be tolerable for you.
22:23:55 <Vorpal> alise, guess why I was a huge fan of it?
22:24:05 <Vorpal> alise, I don't know where gnome is heading these days really
22:24:10 <alise> KDE SC 4 is implemented better than KDE 3 -- at least, now it is -- but it has no philosophy.
22:24:11 <Vorpal> but in part I suspect I don't like it
22:24:28 <pikhq> alise: I've basically given up on desktop environments by now.
22:24:37 <alise> GNOME is heading for something that Just Works without thinking. Apple is an example of aiming for that and missing.
22:24:39 <pikhq> Though XFCE doesn't seem revolting.
22:24:55 <alise> GNOME has aimed for that for most of its life -- at least since GNOME 2 -- and has missed several times, but appears to be on the right track now.
22:25:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, xfce is quite nice, used it on some live cds for disk stuff
22:25:10 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, how far did they miss?
22:25:12 <Vorpal> systemrescuecd is awesome for doing weird partition stuff
22:25:15 <alise> Since it's all open and whatnot, there's less of the corporate pressure that stopped Apple from keeping trying new things until they worked.
22:25:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Apple?
22:25:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Latest OS X misses by a long mark.
22:25:27 <Vorpal> I always use that when setting up disks
22:25:36 <alise> System Software 6 was very close. But it was limited, so.
22:25:47 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: KDE had more "just works" than GNOME back in the day (TM).
22:26:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I haven't used the latest OS...
22:26:03 <pikhq> And KDE didn't ever really aim for that...
22:26:11 <alise> pikhq: yeah -- remember that GNOME vs KDE article?
22:26:14 <Vorpal> alise, I think GNOME is partly on the wrong track, because it means I don't really have options to configure stuff I disagree with it about
22:26:19 <pikhq> alise: Not really.
22:26:20 <alise> With the vomit-encrusted rave GNOME thing?
22:26:22 <Vorpal> still it is not so bad I can't stand it
22:26:49 <Vorpal> alise, I would say that is quite reversed these days
22:26:53 <Vorpal> that article
22:27:04 <Vorpal> alise, wasn't KDE a german office of exactness?
22:27:05 <pikhq> alise: Oh, that. Right.
22:27:14 <alise> pikhq: It was "KDE developers are European and listen to tinkling classical music in a modern architecture building and do everything by the book, then enter the military to kill people senselessly because they are empty inside" and "GNOME developers are all at a rave and vomit and shit everywhere while lights strobe, and occasionally they put it all in a tarball and release it without checking whether it works."
22:27:31 <alise> Anyway, yeah, that was true back in the day, with GNOME being the crazy unusable UI-effects one.
22:27:36 <alise> It's interesting how much that is reversed now.
22:27:42 <alise> Although really both are like KDE in the article now.
22:27:45 <alise> The latter is... maybe E17?
22:27:52 <Vorpal> alise, I don't remember the military bit
22:28:00 <alise> Vorpal: it definitely had it
22:28:02 <pikhq> alise: Except for the "put it all in a tarball" thing.
22:28:08 <pikhq> E17 doesn't release.
22:28:08 <Vorpal> alise, e17 XD
22:28:12 <Vorpal> I never tried it
22:28:14 <alise> pikhq: Well, yes.
22:28:16 <alise> Vorpal: It's not very good.
22:28:28 <Vorpal> but it looked... eyecandish?
22:28:30 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/E17_screenshot.jpg
22:28:32 <alise> It is.
22:28:35 <alise> Eye candy and nothing else.
22:28:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: It has some interesting things going on, but it's a version control checkout and it shows.
22:28:42 <alise> Much more popular a while ago than it is now.
22:28:42 <Vorpal> hm
22:28:50 <pikhq> alise: That was E16.
22:28:54 <Vorpal> I can't say I like eye candy
22:28:57 <alise> pikhq: ?
22:29:04 <alise> E16 didn't have eye candy.
22:29:07 <pikhq> Enlightenment 16 was popular.
22:29:08 <alise> Not really.
22:29:10 <alise> Ah.
22:29:15 <alise> Well E17 was popular too, in some circles.
22:29:24 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I suppose you don't approve of Compiz, then?
22:29:28 <alise> Vorpal: Eye candy is worthless; but ugliness is pretty unusable too.
22:29:32 <pikhq> Wait, E16 still has releases?
22:29:39 <alise> Lack of gradients isn't ugliness, though. :)
22:29:43 <Vorpal> alise, pikhq: I use clearlooks, metacity, old version of standard gnome icon theme, #D3D9FF solid color desktop bg
22:29:49 <alise> pikhq: yep, apparently
22:29:50 <Vorpal> that says everything I think
22:29:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: Clean.
22:29:57 <alise> clearlooks is pretty eyecandyish
22:30:20 <alise> Vorpal: old clearlooks was great: http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.6.png
22:30:20 <pikhq> alise: It's the unobtrusive kind, though.
22:30:25 <alise> more conservative than it is now
22:30:30 <Vorpal> alise, pikhq due to different colour reproduction on my laptop I use #DCDDEF there
22:30:33 <alise> that's circa 2005
22:30:34 <Vorpal> it looks about the same
22:30:40 <Vorpal> I don't know which is most correct
22:30:43 <Vorpal> probably desktop
22:31:17 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: old clearlooks was great: http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.6.png <-- hm, not same shade on window title bar
22:31:37 <Vorpal> a lighter, and more pure blue
22:31:46 <alise> thing i hate about classic mac OS: icons are just sprawled everywhere with no organisation most of the time!
22:31:49 <Vorpal> alise, ^
22:31:49 <ais523> Vorpal: would you consider licensing some of your GPL code as BSD just because someone asks you to for no apparent reason?
22:31:52 <alise> Vorpal: Yes; it had a different colour scheme then.
22:31:53 <ais523> please say no, I need ammo in an arugmnet
22:31:54 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, I may want to start using XFCE.
22:31:59 <alise> Vorpal: But look at the buttons, etc.
22:32:03 <Vorpal> ais523, I would want a good reason
22:32:08 <alise> Vorpal: They're nicer.
22:32:09 <Vorpal> ais523, a very good reason
22:32:18 <Vorpal> alise, nah
22:32:21 <alise> pikhq: I dunno... I've used XFCE and ... I actually have no opinion on it.
22:32:27 <alise> It completely bypassed my opinion subsystem.
22:32:32 <ais523> let's see... ESR has decided he wants to relicense C-INTERCAL as BSD because it's a compiler and it helps to solve license issues
22:32:34 <alise> Vorpal: ok, but the gradients on the toolbars
22:32:40 <alise> Vorpal: are much less obtrusive
22:32:46 <ais523> I don't see any reason why the compiler itself (as opposed to libick) should be
22:32:49 <alise> ais523: i support
22:32:52 <alise> simply because BSD is nicer
22:32:53 <Vorpal> alise, I don't have any toolbary window around to check with
22:32:58 <ais523> and also, his attitude seems to be "let's just do it, we'll sort out the legal problems later"
22:33:02 <alise> oh
22:33:04 <alise> well that's retarded
22:33:05 <Vorpal> alise, I actually use some KDE software for the toolbary ones
22:33:07 <alise> tell him he's retarded
22:33:11 <Vorpal> alise, like kate
22:33:16 <pikhq> Though it must be said that GTK sucks.
22:33:24 <alise> pikhq: it does, but everything uses it anyway
22:33:28 <alise> so what ya gonna do
22:33:33 <pikhq> True.
22:33:47 <Vorpal> ais523, and no I'm not prepared to re-license my contributions to ick
22:34:13 <alise> Vorpal: even if everyone else did?
22:34:16 <alise> woo, obstructiveness
22:34:17 <Vorpal> ais523, not without a very good reason and everything being properly considered
22:34:24 <ais523> luckily, even tracking down everyone else would be tricky at this point
22:34:25 <Vorpal> alise, wait for the next line
22:34:40 <alise> Vorpal: what if there was no particular reason but every other contributor ever had already agreed?
22:34:48 <alise> ais523: I'd just tell him "that's illegal".
22:34:57 <Vorpal> alise, I would ask why this was decided on
22:35:07 <alise> Vorpal: "Because we want it to be BSD."
22:35:10 <Vorpal> alise, "why"
22:35:16 <alise> Vorpal: "Because we like BSD."
22:35:21 <Vorpal> "why"
22:35:34 <alise> Vorpal: "Because we do. The other 30 contributors have already agreed; will you?"
22:35:35 <Vorpal> alise, (I could go on forever, and if there was a good reason I would likely switch)
22:35:40 <ais523> Vorpal was the best person to ask here because a) he's written some relatively hard-to-replace code, b) he's right here in the channel, c) he isn't me
22:35:46 <Vorpal> alise, I probably wouldn't without a good reason no
22:35:54 <alise> ais523: and d) he's insane
22:36:02 * Sgeo growls
22:36:05 <alise> Vorpal: "Okay; we'll rewrite your code and remove you from the credits file."
22:36:12 <Vorpal> alise, *shrug*
22:36:15 <ais523> alise: yes, I was rather hoping he had strong views on BSD vs. GPL
22:36:23 <alise> ais523: you already know those views, surely
22:36:31 <alise> he expresses them at every available opportunity
22:36:33 <ais523> I lose track
22:37:13 <alise> iCab starts! woo!
22:37:17 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm happy to use BSD too, I tend to use GPL for my own projects due to not wanting companies making commercial use of my own code without giving back but I'm happy to contribute under BSD to projects already using it
22:37:22 <alise> network error
22:37:24 <alise> *sob*
22:37:27 <Vorpal> ais523, that is my views on BSD vs GPL
22:37:41 <Vorpal> and "giving back" there refers to the community as a whole
22:37:57 <alise> GOOGLE LOADS
22:37:59 <alise> and renders properly, wow
22:38:04 <Vorpal> not in the form of paying me
22:38:14 <Vorpal> but as in releasing improvements
22:38:21 <Vorpal> ais523, so there you have my views on them
22:38:32 <alise> In which Google is rendered on a 68k Macintosh: http://imgur.com/ugJA5.png
22:38:37 <Vorpal> ais523, however I doubt any sane company would want to reuse code from ick
22:38:46 <Vorpal> it is just... too messy
22:38:55 <ais523> it's better than it was
22:39:05 <ais523> ESR is busy trying to make it messy by the look of things
22:39:10 <Vorpal> ais523, well yes, thanks in part to me
22:39:11 <ais523> the fact that he seems unable to read INTERCAL doesn't really help
22:39:14 <Sgeo> ick?
22:39:17 <ais523> Vorpal: I know; thanks for that
22:39:17 <Vorpal> ais523, he what?
22:39:22 <ais523> Sgeo: the main C-INTERCAL binary
22:39:28 <ais523> Vorpal: he keeps asking me what programs do
22:39:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I'm pretty sure you asked this before?
22:39:35 <alise> ais523: why are you even collaborating with him?
22:39:38 <alise> he's awfully incompetent
22:39:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, ais and ESR's magic intercal machine.
22:39:40 * Sgeo is unable to read INTERCAL... then again, I'm not encouraging a new INTERCAL project
22:39:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: let's just say ais's
22:39:50 <Vorpal> ais523, perpet.c was really horrible before I cleaned it up
22:39:53 <ais523> alise: because Knuth asked us to
22:39:54 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what he could write in INTERCAL
22:39:56 <alise> Sgeo: erm, he created C-INTERCAL
22:39:58 <Sgeo> Oh
22:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover> FOR MYSTERIOUS REASONS
22:40:03 <alise> Sgeo: (esr)
22:40:05 <alise> ais523: you could easily assemble the versions yourself
22:40:07 <Sgeo> Confused ESR and Knuth
22:40:08 <alise> and email them to knuth first :)
22:40:08 <Vorpal> ais523, took quite a while to figure out how stuff tied together, iirc it used goto to jump around before?
22:40:09 <Sgeo> >.>
22:40:23 <alise> wow, this iCab was released in 2006
22:40:24 <Vorpal> not sure if I completely got rid of that or not
22:40:26 <alise> can you believe that?
22:40:30 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:40:31 <alise> new 68k software, released in 2006
22:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, have you found out why Knuth wants this‽
22:40:33 <alise> by an actual company
22:40:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The Art of Computer Programming.
22:40:44 <Vorpal> alise, they stopped after that
22:40:48 <ais523> I refuse to answer questions with gratuitous interrobangs
22:40:48 <alise> Vorpal: who cares
22:41:03 <Vorpal> <ais523> I refuse to answer questions with gratuitous interrobangs <-- um?
22:41:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, ah, so this is how he will complete it?
22:41:05 <pikhq> alise: ... Kidding, right?
22:41:11 <Vorpal> who was that directed to
22:41:19 <alise> pikhq: me?
22:41:21 <ais523> Vorpal: to Phantom_Hoover, who'd just used one
22:41:22 <alise> pikhq: for what remark?
22:41:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: dunno
22:41:27 <pikhq> alise: TAoCP & INTERCAL?
22:41:30 <Vorpal> ais523, ah
22:41:30 <alise> pikhq: nope
22:41:37 <alise> pikhq: he's including an INTERCAL program, apparently
22:41:38 <pikhq> The fuuuuck?
22:41:39 <alise> ask ais523 to confirm
22:41:52 <Vorpal> why would he do that
22:41:58 <alise> Sorry, a system error occured.
22:42:00 <alise> “iCab”
22:42:03 <alise> error type 10
22:42:03 <ais523> hmm, http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2491#more-2491 seems to give some of the context
22:42:05 <alise> [ Restart ]
22:42:09 <pikhq> Oh, wait. He's going to be discussing compiler techniques...
22:42:11 <Vorpal> alise, ah reboot
22:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, for great epicicity!
22:42:18 <Sgeo> Internet Taxi for the Mac?
22:42:25 <ais523> <esr> Don (he asked me to call him that, honest!) had requested a bug fix in INTERCAL, which he plans to use as the subject of a chapter in his forthcoming book Selected Papers on Fun And Games. As of those three hours ago Donald Knuth’s program is part of the INTERCAL compiler’s regression-test suite.
22:42:25 <alise> ais523: even just his blog post titles make me want to stab him
22:42:40 <alise> Sgeo: it's a web browser
22:42:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, the issue with C-INTERCAL is mostly parsing (though optimisation is also non-trivial)
22:42:51 <Vorpal> at least as far as I understand it
22:42:54 <ais523> what's annoying me atm is that he seems to have an attitude of "if you have a good testsuite, any commit that doesn't break it should be accepted"
22:43:01 <Sgeo> Anything with "Taxi" in the name should be an interpreter for Taxi
22:43:11 <alise> ais523: even useless commits?
22:43:25 <ais523> or ones that reduce code quality, AFAICT
22:43:35 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, ESR may challenge Wolfram in ego.
22:43:43 <ais523> he told me to open up commit access to the INTERCAL repos for anyone I'd been working with
22:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "I discovered that INTERCAL had nucleated an entire weird little subculture of esoteric-language designers around itself, among whom I had come to be regarded as sort of a patriarch in absentia…."
22:43:49 <alise> argh
22:43:53 <alise> basilisk is so crashy
22:43:54 <ais523> on the assumption that they'd run the regression tests first
22:43:58 <Vorpal> alise, is it?
22:43:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: HAHA
22:44:04 <Vorpal> alise, what are you doing in it?
22:44:09 <alise> nobody, and I mean nobody, considers esr godlike in the esolangs community
22:44:12 <ais523> he also claims that all modern INTERCAL impls are decended from C-INTERCAL
22:44:13 <Vorpal> alise, I found that browsing web is a bad idea.
22:44:16 <Vorpal> alise, otherwise it works well
22:44:21 <ais523> even after I specifically told him CLC-INTERCAL existed
22:44:21 <alise> Vorpal: that's what i was trying
22:44:24 <alise> Vorpal: know of an irc client?
22:44:24 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, this is what I was mocking.
22:44:31 <alise> ais523: this is esr, are you surprised?
22:44:39 <Vorpal> alise, not 68k no
22:44:39 <alise> suggestion: avoid talking to him, do only the work Knuth requests
22:44:42 <ais523> also, I'm apparently a "doughty Englishman"
22:44:44 <Vorpal> alise, get MPW and make one
22:44:48 <alise> Vorpal: no
22:44:53 <alise> I bet ircle works
22:44:58 <Vorpal> alise, no clue
22:45:02 <alise> yep
22:45:04 <alise> there's an ircle release
22:45:06 <alise> .sit.bin fun fun
22:45:13 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what doughty means.
22:45:13 <Vorpal> alise, that should be easy
22:45:24 <alise> ais523: does he know what doughty means?
22:45:24 <Phantom_Hoover> YOU PEOPLE AND YOUR SLANG
22:45:30 <alise> I didn't; "brave, courageous and stouthearted"
22:45:33 <Vorpal> alise, even if stuffit fails at .bin
22:45:33 <ais523> I don't know what doughty means either
22:45:37 <alise> how the heck can he deduce that from C-INTERCAL?
22:45:38 <Vorpal> which I don't think it will
22:45:45 <alise> Vorpal: it doesn't
22:45:47 <alise> fail at it
22:45:47 <Vorpal> you could still use hfstools to copy it to the disk image
22:45:47 <alise> that is
22:45:52 <Vorpal> from unix
22:45:57 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, to work on it for any time would require that.
22:45:57 <alise> haha it has both UK and US english releases
22:46:02 <Vorpal> and hfstools support copy and unhqz
22:46:08 <Vorpal> hqx*
22:46:12 <Vorpal> and same for bin
22:46:16 <Vorpal> well both ways
22:46:51 <Vorpal> alise, btw when you linked http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/E17_screenshot.jpg did you read the dialog in the middle?
22:46:57 <Vorpal> it is hilarious
22:47:20 <alise> yeah :)
22:47:25 <alise> that's conservative, haha
22:47:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Compiz can totally outflashy that.
22:47:47 <Vorpal> alise, and calling a supposedly "conservative" theme "bling bling"...?
22:47:49 <Vorpal> wtf
22:49:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's called irony.
22:49:43 <alise> hey, it got a 2010 date correct
22:49:44 <alise> impressive
22:49:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you think they did that intentionally?
22:49:54 <Vorpal> alise, what did?
22:49:59 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, ESR might actually be more full of himself than Wolfram...
22:50:04 <alise> basilisk's scroll wheel emulation is awesome
22:50:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, he isn't
22:50:08 <alise> Vorpal: ircle
22:50:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, o.o
22:50:40 <Vorpal> <alise> basilisk's scroll wheel emulation is awesome <-- um... it doesn't work in all apps due to being implemented as "arrow key input"
22:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I evidently haven't learnt enough of Wolfram.
22:50:49 <Vorpal> and in some apps it scrolls too fast
22:50:51 <Vorpal> and so on
22:51:23 -!- alise68k has joined.
22:51:34 <alise68k> Good morning America!
22:51:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, read the introduction at http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/FunctionalProgramming.html
22:51:49 <ais523> hi
22:52:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, even ESR isn't that bad
22:52:22 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAGH
22:52:42 <Phantom_Hoover> His *software* has a huge ego...
22:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> And is apparently oblivious to Lisp...
22:53:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about this one: "
22:53:04 <Vorpal> Mathematica provides a uniquely integrated and automated environment for parallel computing. With zero configuration, full interactivity and seamless local and network operation, the symbolic character of the Mathematica language allows immediate support of a variety of existing and new parallel programming paradigms and data-sharing models. "
22:53:14 <Vorpal> not quite as bad as the first one
22:53:15 <Vorpal> but still
22:53:36 * Phantom_Hoover avoids concurrency quite well as it is, thank you very much.
22:54:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "Integrated into the core Mathematica language is industrial-strength string manipulation, not only with ordinary regular expressions, but also with Mathematica's own powerful general symbolic string-pattern language. "
22:54:23 <Vorpal> this is embarrassingly bad
22:54:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Again, I haven't bothered to learn about string processing, so they could be right for all I know.
22:54:47 <Vorpal> how can anyone write "industrial-strength string manipulation" and NOT be joking
22:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, doing *anything* industrial-strength in Mathematica seems silly to me.
22:56:22 <Vorpal> well that too
22:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Even Coq seems more immediately gluable to the outside world.
22:57:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but "industrial-strength string manipulation" is almost as silly as "Enterprise INTERCAL System Administrator Certification"
22:57:14 <ais523> hey, I'd do the latter
22:57:25 <ais523> also, Mathematica doesn't even do things like a memoized study
22:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, can I have one?
22:57:32 <ais523> well, admittedly nothing else does either, but it'd help it out
22:57:46 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: first step is to explain what it actually /means/
22:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> INTERCAL certification, that is.
22:57:56 <ais523> you'd also need to demonstrate expertise in administering an INTERCAL-based system
22:58:09 <Vorpal> ais523, a redundant one of course
22:58:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I can truthfully say that I have administered every INTERCAL-based system in existence.
22:58:33 <ais523> I'm not going to fall for that one
22:58:37 <ais523> Vorpal: ?
22:58:39 <Vorpal> ais523, why not implement a redundant distributed network on top of CLC-INTERCAL networking
22:58:47 <Vorpal> such as erlang or similar
22:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, pleeeeeaaaaase?
22:58:56 <ais523> Vorpal: because I have better things to do?
22:59:04 <Vorpal> ais523, good point
23:00:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, pleasepleaseplease??
23:00:50 <Vorpal> ais523, I imagine a rack containing some UPSes and huge cabinets of blade servers, each running INTERCAL software
23:01:02 <Vorpal> I can't seem to get this image out of my mind
23:01:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: begging is a method of gaining certification?
23:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, YES
23:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Honestly, what kind of university did you go to?
23:02:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what?
23:02:24 <Vorpal> does that work at any uni?
23:02:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, all of the reputable ones.
23:02:55 <Vorpal> nah...
23:03:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, graduating suma cum laude (spelling?) is the way to go
23:03:08 <Vorpal> and doing that by begging? wrong way
23:03:13 <Vorpal> you shouldn't need to beg
23:03:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you obviously don't go to a reputable university, then.
23:03:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, examples of such in Europe?
23:04:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, they do have reputations.
23:04:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, read the sub titles for the categories on http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/guide/Mathematica.html
23:04:49 <Phantom_Hoover> They couldn't go around having people who don't know about them knowing about them, now could they?
23:04:57 <Vorpal> what?
23:05:23 <ais523> alise68k: do you have any code in C-INTERCAL?
23:05:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I go to one that probably give you marks based on what you actually do
23:05:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I tire of this trolling.
23:05:28 <ais523> I can't remember
23:05:30 <Vorpal> not based on begging
23:05:35 <ais523> (I know you have bug reports)
23:05:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you were trolling?
23:05:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, STANDARD TROLL TACTIC, THAT
23:05:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was?
23:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, accusing your victim of trolling!
23:06:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, are you saying I was trolling?
23:06:32 <Vorpal> No
23:06:36 <Vorpal> not intentionally at least
23:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's what you'd say if you were a troll!
23:06:59 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, see my debating skills?
23:07:02 <Vorpal> old one
23:07:10 <Vorpal> *sigh*
23:07:24 <ais523> meh, I don't accuse people of trolling when it's obvious
23:07:52 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, hence I should get my INTERCAL certification!
23:08:20 <Vorpal> ... how does that follow
23:08:33 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:09:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, through LOGICAL.
23:09:56 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRsa8205eS4 ← strange
23:11:10 <Vorpal> the title is wtf
23:11:23 <Phantom_Hoover> (It's a proof assistant based on INTERCAL)
23:11:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is it just black + music?
23:11:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes.
23:11:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, quite nice music so far
23:12:54 <Vorpal> though somewhat abrupt change is style around 02:05 or such
23:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, didn't I have a random idea of a proof assistant written in Coq?
23:14:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, isn't Coq a proof assistant?
23:14:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the change is presumably Wolfram's ego reaching its proper place in the heavens.
23:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> And yes, it is.
23:14:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I would say awesome music with very very strange title
23:14:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I think I won't delete the file the music was that awesome. Just have to ignore the title
23:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://chrishecker.com/File:Wolframalpha-crop.png ← Wolfram's ego has indeed created much entertainment.
23:18:15 <ais523> <esr> If anyone living has a claim to be the high priest of the cult of systematic skepticism in software development, that would be me.
23:18:19 <ais523> missed that on the first readthrough...
23:18:23 <alise> ais523: wow...
23:18:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's mild by wolfram's standards
23:18:32 <pikhq> alise: Have you been able to find a satisfactory GUI IM client?
23:18:38 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, O.o
23:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> What's strong?
23:19:07 <alise> ais523: link Phantom_Hoover to Wolfram's blog post where he announces that he used your brain to PERSONALLY compute the answer to his BEAUTIFUL 2,3 problem
23:19:19 <alise> which was done by HIM, STEPHEN WOLFRAM
23:19:33 <alise> pikhq: No. I use Pidgin. It causes great pain. But less so than anything else.
23:19:40 <pikhq> alise: And IRC?
23:19:46 <alise> pikhq: I use XChat. For now.
23:19:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, if you give me my certification, I'll beat Wolfram with a pillowcase full of soap.
23:19:52 <pikhq> irssi it is, then!
23:20:01 <ais523> alise: I'm not sure where it is, offhand
23:20:01 <alise> pikhq: XChat /can/ be configured to be somewhat tolerable...
23:20:07 <alise> pikhq: You might like WeeChat, btw.
23:20:13 <pikhq> Yeah, but irssi is *already* tolerable.
23:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, judging by my search history, I have at times thought your name to be Adam, Alan and Alex Smith.
23:20:44 <alise> http://mollyrocket.com/11235
23:20:45 <ais523> are you thinking of this one: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solution_news.html
23:20:55 <alise> explanation of the title
23:20:56 <ais523> also, searching for "Alex Smith" is useless, it's a rather common name
23:21:04 <alise> ais523: won't load o_O
23:21:07 <alise> and no, it was on his blog
23:21:10 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, yeah, that's why I refine it.
23:21:22 <ais523> http://blog.wolfram.com/?year=2007&monthnum=10&name=the-prize-is-won-the-simplest-universal-turing-machine-is-proved
23:21:24 <alise> heh:
23:21:25 <alise> "↑ I will write up why I think it sucks it in more detail at some point on my Mathematica page, but for now I refer you to this. To be fair, I'm using an old copy of Mathematica 3.0, but I've looked at the feature lists of the newer versions and they don't seem to fix (or even acknowledge) the issues I have with it, so I've never bothered to upgrade. I have an article brewing about my math problem solving workflow that I hope to post before the heat death
23:21:25 <alise> of the universe."
23:21:29 <alise> someone using mathematica 3 in 2010
23:21:30 <alise> impressive
23:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, incidentally, do you still have that insane beard?
23:21:42 <alise> ais523: I wonder why it's not loading.
23:21:45 <alise> insane? that beard is awesome!
23:21:47 <ais523> I still have a beard, yes
23:21:55 <ais523> alise: did you blackhole Wolfram in your hosts file?
23:21:55 <alise> i wouldn't talk to him if he got rid of that beard
23:21:58 <alise> ais523: no, but good idea
23:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, this is #esoteric!
23:22:07 <ais523> I wouldn't put it past you...
23:22:12 <oerjan> his beard has been getting psychotherapy and is no longer insane
23:22:30 <alise68k> IRCing from a 68k Macintosh, fuck yeah!
23:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Insane is not the same as not awesome!!
23:22:56 <alise68k> In which I use ircle: http://i.imgur.com/c3wwD.png
23:24:12 <alise68k> heh, the IM advice for System 7 is "install an IRC client and use Bitlbee"
23:24:53 <alise> ais523: "Now, friends, you may be wondering why I bothered to do all this rather than simply starting a repo with ais523’s latest snapshot and munging my week’s worth of changes into it, and all I’m going to say about that is that if the answer isn’t intuitively obvious to you you have missed the point of INTERCAL and are probably not a hacker."
23:25:24 <ais523> alise: what's your opinion on that sentence?
23:25:25 <alise> ais523: tl;dr "If you don't understand why I wasted time bugging other people, you're not a hacker like I am. I know this because I wrote the definition of a hacker. Fun fact: It includes not calling yourself a hacker. I am a man of many contradictions."
23:25:35 <alise> ais523: I think it's one of the strangest sentences I've read today.
23:25:38 <ais523> ah
23:25:54 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, incidentally, do you still have that insane beard? <-- which awesome beard?
23:25:55 <Vorpal> link?
23:25:58 <alise> ais523: did you give him permission to quote those emails?
23:26:04 <ais523> no
23:26:16 <ais523> well, not explicitly
23:26:23 <alise> hmm
23:26:33 <ais523> I could probably have objected if I didn't want them posted, at least
23:26:43 <Vorpal> ais523, do you have a link to a photo?
23:26:48 <alise> my email-quoting ethics: Only do it if the other person is a massive jerk, or if you're just quoting them in private to someone you know
23:26:58 <ais523> Vorpal: what, any photo?
23:27:06 <ais523> just click random image on Wikimedia Commons a few times
23:27:21 <Vorpal> ais523, no to one showing your beard
23:27:24 <Vorpal> no,*
23:27:25 <ais523> alise: just change it to "if either person is a massive jerk", then it works just fine
23:27:39 <ais523> Vorpal: let's just say, I don't use Facebook for a reason
23:27:46 <alise> ais523: I think that's the first time you've outright called esr something nasty :-)
23:27:49 <Vorpal> ais523, well I'm pretty sure I seen one
23:27:51 <Vorpal> ais523, somewhere
23:27:57 <alise> either that or you're implying I'm a massive jerk :-D
23:28:00 <ais523> which is partly that I don't see what the point in gratuitous photos are
23:28:08 <alise> Vorpal: wolfram has one, but it's old, and you're a stalker.
23:28:16 <Vorpal> aha http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/alex_smith_bio.html
23:28:26 <alise68k> Nobody say anything Unicode, my poor Mac won't be able to cope.
23:28:27 <Vorpal> alise, nah, I was just wondering what Phantom_Hoover meant
23:28:29 <ais523> alise: well, or that he asked permission
23:28:37 <Vorpal> alise, since I did not remember that
23:28:40 <ais523> I'm not sure if it counts or not
23:28:51 <alise> ais523: eh?
23:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, I'll compensate for your crappy Googlestalking skills.
23:29:24 <alise> ais523: Interesting challenge: find a sentence in the blog post that isn't about esr in some major way.
23:29:45 <alise> So far: "Still."
23:29:58 <ais523> "Today’s routine use of such tools wasn’t even a gleam in anyone’s eye then, if only because disks were orders of magnitude smaller and there was a lot of implied pressure to actually throw away old versions of stuff."
23:30:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I found it above
23:30:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/images/alex_smith_wolfram_turing.jpg
23:30:08 <alise68k> ais523: That's Unicode.
23:30:09 <Vorpal> as I said
23:30:09 <alise68k> Prepare to suffer.
23:30:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, please read up :)
23:30:21 <ais523> alise68k: ?
23:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, oh, the ironing!
23:30:31 <ais523> it was just a c&p from the article
23:30:37 <ais523> but I can hardly re-encode it to MacRoman for you
23:30:42 <alise68k> Whyever not?
23:30:56 <alise68k> Wow, if I select a menu it halts all IRC output until I deselect.
23:30:57 <ais523> not implemented in the client
23:31:02 <alise68k> This font is ridiculously small.
23:31:09 -!- alise68k has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:31:18 <alise> Stable!
23:31:21 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway considering license... remember IFFI. That makes the whole thing even more complex. :P
23:31:25 * alise disables JIT
23:31:38 <Vorpal> alise, JIT is only marginally more stable
23:31:40 <ais523> Vorpal: I did remember that, it was meant to be a last-case bargaining chip
23:31:44 <alise> Vorpal: yes, marginally is good
23:31:58 <ais523> atm I'm just pretending to be offline
23:32:03 <Vorpal> ais523, right.
23:32:08 <ais523> in fact, I should go actually offline, it would be nice if I got some sleep tonight
23:32:08 <alise> Wow, you really don't like talking to esr.
23:32:11 <Vorpal> ais523, you know esr is on freenode right?
23:32:14 <ais523> alise: I don't mind normally
23:32:17 <olsner> blrhgl
23:32:24 <ais523> it's just I can't think of a sensible answer to his last email
23:32:27 <alise> olsner: said Mr. Ner.
23:32:30 <Vorpal> well not atm it seems
23:32:34 <Vorpal> he usually is though
23:32:35 <alise> ais523: "That is illegal. Have a nice day."
23:32:53 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway IFFI complicates it due to GPL3, iirc with proxy thingy too
23:33:08 <ais523> yep, although the link code is GPL2
23:33:17 <Vorpal> ais523, yes by special exception from author
23:33:20 <Vorpal> so that works
23:33:21 <ais523> heh, I suppose I've asked you to relicense for INTERCAL once already
23:33:44 <alise> IRC font options: Chicago, Courier, Geneva, Helvetica, Mishawaka, Monaco, New York, Palatino, Symbol, Times
23:33:46 <alise> So varied.
23:33:48 <Vorpal> ais523, hm?
23:33:59 <ais523> hmm, I should try to find an email from Google
23:34:11 <Vorpal> ais523, are you suggesting going GPL3? well I doubt you would get esr with you on that... and the code he wrote....
23:34:13 <alise> A job offer? :P
23:34:21 <ais523> alise: I asked them what the license on CADIE was
23:34:26 <alise> XD
23:34:32 <ais523> (Google avoid comments in INTERCAL code because they slow execution)
23:34:33 <Vorpal> ais523, awesome
23:34:39 <Vorpal> ais523, did they reply?
23:34:46 <alise> oh yesss this has Mac OS speech in simpletext
23:34:49 <alise> Fred I love you
23:35:03 <ais523> Vorpal: yes
23:35:08 <Vorpal> alise, "Victoria, High Quality" is all I remember from that
23:35:12 <Vorpal> as one of the voices
23:35:19 <alise> no high quality here dammit
23:35:21 <alise> I'm classic!
23:35:28 <Vorpal> alise, the "high quality" bit was not very well spoken
23:35:35 * alise makes it say "Fitter, happier, and more productive."
23:35:40 <alise> I am easily amused.
23:35:42 <Vorpal> alise, that voice is from classic mac os
23:35:45 <Vorpal> os 9 at least
23:35:59 <Vorpal> ais523, and what was the reply?
23:36:01 <fizzie> There's the "the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlights of a fast approaching train" example-sentence of the "Bad News" (or some-such) voice. I fondly remember that.
23:36:01 <alise> Geneva is a lovely bitmap font.
23:36:11 <alise> fizzie: OS X still has that when you play the example.
23:36:15 <ais523> trying to find it now
23:36:20 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, me too...
23:36:44 -!- augur has joined.
23:37:01 <fizzie> alise: Heh, went to iBook / Preferences / Speech; "System Voice" is indeed set to "Bad News". :p
23:37:17 <ais523> OK, CADIE's license is "apache"
23:37:27 <ais523> I'm assuming that's apache v2, mostly because v1 is insane
23:37:47 -!- alise68k has joined.
23:37:50 <fizzie> Even the OS X text-to-speech bit is not quite state-of-the-art.
23:38:10 <alise68k> Indeed it isn't.
23:38:28 <ais523> hmm, apache v2 is compatible with GPL3 but not GPL2
23:38:50 <alise68k> Huh, I thought it was GPL2-compatible.
23:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose the OEIS doesn't have any sequences the union of which are |?
23:39:39 <alise68k> Oh yeah, proportional IRC fonts. REBELLION
23:39:42 <Phantom_Hoover> s/|/Z/
23:39:50 <ais523> ISTR there was a big row about including clauses in GPL3 and Apache2 to make the two compatible
23:39:53 <alise68k> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty sure it has N, at least.
23:40:01 <alise68k> I'm not sure your question is very well-defined.
23:40:04 <alise68k> Union is an operation on sets.
23:40:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: prime numbers and composite numbers?
23:40:12 <ais523> plus the sequence that consists only of 0 and 1?
23:40:18 <alise68k> ais523: that's N, though
23:40:27 <ais523> well, OK
23:40:29 <Vorpal> ais523, hm...
23:40:33 <ais523> throw in -1, negative primes and negative composites
23:40:38 <ais523> or, what about odds and evens?
23:40:42 <pikhq> ais523: The GPLv3 added clauses *allowing* for certain restrictions or lack of restrictions for the sake of compatibility.
23:40:47 <alise68k> I don't think OEIS HAS negative numbers.
23:40:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there goes the smallest boring number.
23:40:47 <alise68k> Not sure.
23:41:11 <pikhq> ais523: The GPLv3, BTW, is compatible with the old-style BSD license, as well.
23:41:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: according to The Penguin Book Of Interesting Numbers, 39 is the smallest boring natural number
23:41:19 <pikhq> (it allows for an advertising clause)
23:41:25 <ais523> pikhq: interesting
23:41:30 <alise68k> ircle is so weird, having a separate window for the input line and all that.
23:41:33 <alise68k> A big one, too.
23:41:35 <ais523> ofc, advertising materials tend not to be so compatible with BSD4
23:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, by what metric?
23:41:50 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, while I wrote the main code on cfunge, after the point of implementing IFFI I got a few small patches from other people. Some not in here (very strange) and at least one I haven't seen on IRC for over half a year
23:41:57 <Vorpal> and have no idea how to reach
23:42:00 <alise68k> ircle appears to not have tab-completion of nicknames.
23:42:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, the book was a dictionary of interesting numbers
23:42:06 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: A000027 is the natural numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, ...; A001489 is the nonpositive integers: 0, -1, -2, -3, ...; just join those.
23:42:09 <Vorpal> ais523, he did not want to be in credits since it was a trivial change
23:42:17 <ais523> and 39 wasn't there for any purpose other than being the smallest nonpositive
23:42:34 <Vorpal> ais523, still that would complicate it further
23:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.nathanieljohnston.com/2009/06/11630-is-the-first-uninteresting-number/ gives 11630
23:42:43 <Vorpal> could probably not change the ick exception to a new license
23:43:10 <ais523> Vorpal: well, I agree; "just make the change and remove people's code if they complain" is not a sensible course of action
23:43:19 <pikhq> I'm remembering once again the problem with theming.
23:43:21 <ais523> I'll email ESR and say that at least one contributor other than me doesn't want a relicense
23:43:26 <pikhq> Most people have absolutely no taste.
23:43:42 <alise68k> test
23:43:44 <Vorpal> ais523, I expect you have even more hard to track down people for ick itself
23:43:47 <fizzie> And some people just taste like chicken.,
23:44:00 <ais523> Vorpal: yep
23:44:06 <alise68k> Monaco at 12pt is too sparse. :(
23:44:11 <alise68k> Oh well, it's just an emulated Mac.
23:44:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.research.att.com/njas/sequences/index.html?q=0%2C1%2C-1%2C2%2C-2%2C3%2C-3&language=english
23:45:01 <alise68k> ais523: Quick! What room should I go in to and ask for technical help in while mentioning I'm using Mac OS 7.6.1? :-D
23:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, :(
23:45:22 <oerjan> er, http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A001057
23:45:24 <ais523> alise68k: I can't think of an appropriate one; #gnaa would at least be amusing
23:45:33 <Vorpal> alise68k, um... there is actually python that runs on classic mac os. But it might be PPC only
23:45:40 <pikhq> alise68k: ##c?
23:45:44 <ais523> or any channel you want to troll
23:45:49 <ais523> and don't mind being banned from?
23:45:56 <Vorpal> alise68k, I was about to suggest #haskell but realised that didn't run on any classic mac os
23:46:02 <ais523> arguably, Vorpal did just that in #esoteric
23:46:06 <ais523> although maybe not that specific version
23:46:11 <Vorpal> ais523, did what?
23:46:28 -!- alise68k has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:46:40 <fizzie> alise: Find some popular and lively FirstClass BBS somewhere, ask there.
23:46:45 <pikhq> Gotta love the Mac Programmer's Workshop.
23:46:48 <ais523> went into an IRC channel and asked for technical help on a relevant subject using an obsolete operating system
23:46:50 <olsner> Vorpal: whatever it is that you did I'm pretty sure you did it
23:46:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, firstclass... *memories*
23:46:55 <alise> ais523: #gnaa just redirects to a Freenode "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO" channel
23:47:04 <ais523> that hardly surprises me
23:47:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, gymnasiet I studied at used first class
23:47:12 <Vorpal> on windows that is
23:47:13 <ais523> did Freenode do that? or did the GNAA themselves? I wonder
23:47:16 <alise> * Topic for ##you_have_got_to_be_kidding is: Hi, you should probably read the network policy page (http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#general) and maybe some information about the network (http://freenode.net/ and http://freenode.net/philosophy.shtml) and maybe find a better network ;) (http://irc.netsplit.de/networks). Thanks!
23:47:17 <Vorpal> worked on linux too
23:47:18 <alise> ais523: Freenode
23:47:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, still quite different from old firstclass
23:47:42 <ais523> also, ##you_have_got_to_be_kidding is the best page name ever
23:47:42 <alise> Okay, now I need more software to try on 68k.
23:47:45 <ais523> *best channel name
23:47:46 <alise> ais523: yes. page.
23:47:58 <pikhq> alise: Well, you've got a C compiler...
23:48:05 <alise> pikhq: I'm not installing MPW.
23:48:08 <alise> Have you ever used MPW?
23:48:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: I used to go to fiMUG's (Finnish Mac-user community) BBS, "AppleGarden", with the Win3.1 FirstClass client.
23:48:09 <alise> It is pain.
23:48:10 <Vorpal> ais523, old
23:48:10 <alise> It is PAIN.
23:48:14 <Vorpal> I thought everyone knew that
23:48:17 <olsner> oh, I've also used firstclass... I remember someone figuring out how to send messages to the magic recipient "ALL" that literally put your message *everywhere* - in every bulletin board, in every subfolder, in every personal mailbox
23:48:19 <alise> Do not deny this. IT. IS. PAIN.
23:48:19 * Sgeo eats ripened ovaries
23:48:26 <Vorpal> alise, I have used MPW...
23:48:28 <ais523> Vorpal: well, I didn't
23:48:29 <alise> Sgeo: Good ... to know ...
23:48:31 <Vorpal> alise, I ported ICK to it after all
23:48:33 <alise> Vorpal: And it was pain.
23:48:34 <Vorpal> alise, as MPW tools
23:48:37 <pikhq> alise: No, but there is a guy at the local LUG who swears by it.
23:48:39 <Vorpal> alise, only works for PPC though
23:48:48 <Vorpal> alise, would need reporting for 68k
23:48:49 <alise> pikhq: But ... LINUX User Group...
23:49:00 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, MPW is just pain. No arguments.
23:49:17 <Vorpal> alise, and MPW is "quaint"
23:49:20 <pikhq> Yes. I seem to recall he's got it set up to work with SSH.
23:49:23 <alise> And pain.
23:49:29 <alise> pikhq: Um ... tell him he's crazy.
23:49:49 <Vorpal> alise, ever tried that metroworks IDE for mac?
23:49:54 <alise> Vorpal: No.
23:49:55 <Vorpal> alise, codewarrior iirc?
23:49:59 <alise> I gather it's what professional developers used.
23:50:00 <Vorpal> alise, know the name?
23:50:05 <alise> CodeWarrior, yeah.
23:50:11 <Vorpal> alise, I tried it, it is worse than MPW in C standard support
23:50:14 <Vorpal> and so on
23:50:16 <alise> OOH have you got a copy of HyperCard Myst Vorpal
23:50:24 <alise> I mean
23:50:26 <alise> Hypothetically.
23:50:28 <Vorpal> alise, I have myst on a cd for mac
23:50:33 <Vorpal> alise, legal
23:50:34 <Vorpal> original
23:50:43 <alise> So, hypothetically, if some evil person didn't ask you in /msg...
23:50:43 <Vorpal> alise, it is quite large
23:51:25 <Vorpal> alise, and I have nowhere I can put it. If I could setup a hypotethical ssh tunnel to not send it over...
23:51:32 <Vorpal> % typos
23:51:44 <alise> Damn, he'd have to hypothetically fiddle with his stupid router.
23:51:51 <alise> But he would probably consider it.
23:52:22 <Vorpal> alise, well that hypothetical person would have to consider what he thinks it is worth :P
23:52:30 <Vorpal> alise, and do it soon or tomorrow
23:52:41 <alise> Tomorrow sounds good. :P
23:52:46 <Vorpal> alise, oh and I have full hypercard somewhere
23:52:48 <fizzie> You could hypothetically just get it from one of those hypothetical peer-to-beer places.
23:52:57 <Sgeo> Uru is playable online
23:53:01 <alise> Peer-to-beer: the usual method of social interaction.
23:53:03 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I have no clue if this cd works on 68k. It came bundled with a PPC Performa
23:53:06 <alise> Sgeo: Is it HyperCard?
23:53:07 <fizzie> (The one nautically themed one has a .dmg of the mac disc.)
23:53:15 <alise> Vorpal: If it's HyperCard, I bet I could substitute a 68k HyperCard in.
23:53:25 <Vorpal> alise, well it is compiled hypercard I know
23:53:25 <alise> wow @ Desktop Patterns
23:53:28 <alise> Reminds me of Windows 95.
23:53:31 <alise> Vorpal: aw
23:53:36 <alise> might be fat
23:53:41 <Vorpal> alise, might be
23:53:43 <Vorpal> don't know
23:53:50 <Vorpal> alise, um desktop patterns... reminds me of system 7
23:53:51 <Vorpal> :P
23:53:56 <alise> haha they have plaid
23:54:02 <Vorpal> alise, screenshot?
23:54:09 <Sgeo> What's whatever programming language that HyperCard uses like?
23:54:18 <Sgeo> Desktop Patterns!
23:54:21 <Sgeo> I remember those!
23:54:33 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> What's whatever programming language that HyperCard uses like? <-- um
23:54:38 <Vorpal> you mean HyperTalk?
23:54:39 <Vorpal> and iirc
23:54:44 <Vorpal> it is a bit like AppleTalk
23:54:46 <Vorpal> but not quite
23:54:46 <alise> Vorpal: http://imgur.com/E7nac.png
23:54:48 <alise> Experience the PAIN.
23:55:06 <Vorpal> alise, huh you could do that large repetitions
23:55:06 <Sgeo> Dear Display Properties: Get your tabs workinbg
23:55:12 <Vorpal> alise, you couldn't under 7.5
23:55:17 <Vorpal> alise, I never used 7.6
23:55:20 * Sgeo growls
23:55:23 <alise> 7.6 is when 7 became actually good.
23:55:41 <alise> Isn't there a "set arbitrary solid colour" option anywhere? Gaah.
23:55:49 <alise> The dithering is weird.
23:56:03 <Vorpal> whatever classic came with (when I was really small), various subversions of 7.5, 8.5 a few times, 9.0.4 and 9.1 quite a lot
23:56:28 <Vorpal> alise, go to monitor settings
23:56:34 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:56:36 <Vorpal> alise, and set a sane colour count
23:56:41 <alise> Vorpal: Millions already.
23:56:45 <Vorpal> alise, hm
23:56:48 <alise> But the only place I can see to set a background is Desktop Patterns.
23:56:48 <Vorpal> alise, no clue then
23:56:51 <alise> Which has the dithered-solid-colours stuff.
23:56:53 <Vorpal> alise, that plaid is quite nice
23:56:59 <alise> No it isn't!
23:57:00 <Vorpal> in a funky kind of way
23:57:01 <alise> It's awful!
23:57:08 <Vorpal> alise, it could be worse
23:57:15 <Vorpal> alise, replace the red with pink
23:57:17 <alise> It could be a hell of a lot better.
23:57:23 <Vorpal> that would be worse
23:57:33 <Vorpal> alise, and add complementary colours next to each other
23:57:41 <Vorpal> that would be much worse
23:57:54 <alise> Colours that complement each other are generally considered good to put next to each other...
23:58:13 <Vorpal> alise, hm. Maybe I misremembered then
23:58:14 <Sgeo> afaict, Ward's Wiki people love Smalltalk
23:58:23 <alise> Sgeo: yes, it was born out of C2.
23:58:26 <alise> or, no, wait
23:58:27 <Vorpal> alise, I suggest some non-matching ones then
23:58:29 <alise> what was the project called
23:58:36 <Gregor> alise: Colors that compliment each other are also considered good to put next to each other.
23:58:42 <alise> http://lexnet.bravepages.com/HTMLJS.htm "Translating HyperTalk to JavaScript"
23:58:47 <alise> Gregor: And force to mate.
23:58:55 <Gregor> "Oh pink, you're so bright and cheerful!" "As are you, yellow!"
23:59:14 <Sgeo> Well, surely hyperintelligent shades of blue like to do it?
23:59:27 <alise> Yes, but not with just ANY old colour.
23:59:35 <Vorpal> alise, they could add tartan with the classical Scottish clan patterns
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