←2010-08-28 2010-08-29 2010-08-30→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:03 * Sgeo wonders if the original Smalltalk-80 is still usable
00:00:26 <Sgeo> alise, WOT mistrusts bravepages.com
00:00:35 <alise> WOT is retarded.
00:00:37 -!- sshc_ has joined.
00:00:54 <Sgeo> alise, howso?!?!?
00:01:01 <alise> Haha, the amount of ?!s.
00:01:34 <Vorpal> alise, so remember I will not hypothetically ssh to you. Under no condition would I let you ssh to me :P Unless you plan to set up ipv6 and ipsec and tunnel ssh over that. Which would probably annoy the hell out of sixxs so not a good idea at all
00:01:57 <Sgeo> I mean, just because some WOT commentors think geocities.com is malicious does not mean WOT in general is a bad idea
00:02:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo, WOT?
00:02:16 <Sgeo> Web Of Trust
00:02:19 <Sgeo> mywot.com
00:02:37 <alise> Sgeo: For one, instead of "wisdom of the crowds" it's mob rule. For two, yes it /does/; its goodness is directly linked to how good it performs in practice because the WHOLE POINT is letting random people do it. Furthermore, it's simply retarded. It just has no good rationale or anything. It's just a cheap trick to form a corporation based on.
00:02:38 <Vorpal> web of trust, isn't that what pgp key signing is supposed to be about
00:02:42 <Vorpal> but really fails badly
00:02:50 <alise> Nobody with any kind of a brain should use it or think it means anything at all.
00:03:03 <alise> Vorpal: no it's some stupid company stealing the name and making it even more retarded
00:03:10 <Vorpal> alise, ah
00:03:18 <Sgeo> alise, well, it gets some sites wrong, but for the most part...
00:03:40 <alise> Vorpal: Here's how it works: "Users tell us whether a site is good or bad. We listen to them, no matter how few or how idiotic they are."
00:04:05 <Sgeo> Note that Geocities has a green rating, despite the comments being nutty
00:04:05 <alise> Sgeo: And you need it why? Because you use an insecure OS without a virus scanner and also can't think the minimal amount of thinking required to determine whether a website is safe?
00:04:06 <Vorpal> alise, huh
00:04:07 <alise> It's utterly pointless!
00:04:18 <Vorpal> alise, well that wasn't in the same sense as I meant
00:04:34 * Sgeo once again has an operational virus scanner
00:04:34 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:04:35 <Vorpal> alise, pgp key signing is in a sense about a web of trust and the model fails badly there too
00:04:45 <alise> at least it actually has the whole WEB thing
00:04:59 <Vorpal> alise, btw I have a local CA for my lan since yesterday with host x509 certs
00:05:12 <Vorpal> alise, this is because I'm playing around with ipsec
00:05:28 <Vorpal> (I store the CA stuff on an encrypted fs and so on of course)
00:05:28 <alise> Vorpal: btw http://www.retards.org/projects/grackle68k/
00:05:37 <alise> a Mac-like Twitter client for System 6 to OS 9.
00:05:38 <Vorpal> alise, ever used encfs?
00:05:57 <alise> Imagine if Twitter had been invented when System 6 was out. Grackle68k would have been released.
00:05:58 <alise> Vorpal: no
00:06:10 <Sgeo> User-facing applications used some resource editor tool?
00:06:11 <Sgeo> WTF?
00:06:22 <Vorpal> alise, it is fuse and encrypts file data and file names, storing them as files in another dir
00:06:24 <alise> Sgeo: No?
00:06:30 <alise> It's just a convenience there.
00:06:37 <Vorpal> alise, so it doesn't need a disk image and it is on per-file basis in a sense
00:06:38 <Sgeo> " It would be nice if you didn't have to use ResEdit, but why not open ResEdit and reminisce anyway?"
00:06:43 <alise> "Also, if you use resedit to put your username and password in the obvious STR resource, you won't have to enter it when you start the program."
00:06:47 <alise> Reading comprehension! YAY!
00:07:01 <Sgeo> But, programs didn't just provide "store name and password" stuff?
00:07:28 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you fail at reading
00:07:29 <alise> Who the hell said that?
00:07:37 <alise> It's someone's pet project, of course it isn't polished.
00:07:51 <Vorpal> alise, opengenera badly needs a twitter client I feel
00:07:51 <Sgeo> Ok, why does it mention reminiscing about ResEdit?
00:07:57 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:07:59 <alise> Because people used ResEdit a lot.
00:08:08 <Vorpal> resedit was actually extremely nice
00:08:13 <Sgeo> Non-programming consumers?
00:08:18 <Sgeo> Or just programmers
00:08:20 <alise> It's called "experienced users".
00:08:31 <alise> Someone who would buy an intelligent Mac magazine regularly.
00:08:37 <Vorpal> I could fix misaligned dialogs due to i18n and someone not checking that the label fit
00:08:42 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess like regedit
00:08:43 <Vorpal> I did that with resedit a few times
00:08:46 <Vorpal> alise, ^
00:08:51 <Vorpal> err l10n
00:08:54 <Vorpal> not i18n
00:09:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, regedit? what the fuck does that have to do with it
00:09:21 <Sgeo> Vorpal, for use by experienced users
00:09:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo, there are resource editing tools for windows too
00:09:39 <Vorpal> more like those I guess
00:09:51 <Vorpal> Sgeo, reshacker iirc was one
00:09:55 <Vorpal> or something like that
00:10:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo, think along the lines of this: http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/d10resourceeditor.htm
00:10:38 <Vorpal> but more advanced
00:10:42 <Vorpal> and more useful
00:10:57 <Sgeo> Need
00:10:57 <Sgeo> More
00:10:58 <Sgeo> Food
00:11:03 <Vorpal> mhm
00:11:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:11:22 <fizzie> I remember using Borland Resource Workshop on win3.1, but I have no recollection what for.
00:11:27 <fizzie> Maybe to twiddle with some dialogs.
00:11:33 <alise> robotfindskitten mac-68k
00:11:34 <alise> OH MY GOD YES
00:11:36 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
00:11:38 <alise> http://www.retards.org/projects/robotfindskitten-mac68k/
00:11:59 <alise> "There's a bootable disk image with rfk in the downloads section for use with the BasiliskII and vmac emulators."
00:12:01 <alise> Who needs other applications?
00:12:40 <fizzie> I am a bit anti-rfk nowadays, because the main rfk maintainer never added my rfk86 to the list of ports. :/
00:12:48 <alise> :D @ rfk.\pi
00:12:53 <alise> fizzie: He may be busy with other stuff?
00:13:21 <Vorpal> alise, .\pi ?
00:13:31 <alise> Vorpal: TeX syntax there
00:13:33 <Vorpal> wait I thought it was befunge code first
00:13:35 <Vorpal> with the @
00:13:36 <fizzie> But it's been ages! (He did reply but then nothing happened evar.)
00:13:41 <alise> @ = at
00:13:44 <alise> fizzie: Awww.
00:13:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe remind him?
00:14:21 <nooga> i like to call my green tea 'biodiesel'
00:14:44 <alise> The only command it has is "New Game". Not even an about screen.
00:14:51 <alise> I admire that, though ideally, I would not have a "New Game" command.
00:14:56 <alise> It would simply be pure Robot Finds Kitten.
00:15:04 <alise> *robotfindskitten
00:15:07 <alise> *robotfindskitten.
00:15:09 <alise> Either you play, or you quit.
00:16:07 <alise> [[A gravestone stands here. "Izchak Miller, ascended."]]
00:16:08 <alise> Aww.
00:16:50 <ais523> that's an RfK message?
00:17:04 <alise> yeah
00:17:05 <alise> *rfk
00:17:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:18:00 <Vorpal> alise, you can find that in nethack too of course
00:18:31 <ais523> it wouldn't be that exact message
00:18:37 <Vorpal> ais523, well no
00:19:39 <alise> he's alive in nethack, after all
00:20:16 <Vorpal> alise, yes but iirc you can also find that on gravestones?
00:20:36 <alise> maybe, dunno
00:20:43 <alise> http://www.emaculation.com/macfiles/doom.hqx
00:20:44 <alise> hells yeah
00:20:48 <ais523> you'd have to engrave it on one yourself
00:20:55 <Vorpal> alise, the difference would be that it isn't "A gravestone stands here." iirc
00:20:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:21:29 <alise> I wonder if Nethack--
00:21:43 <alise> Yep!
00:21:45 <Vorpal> alise, if playing mac games I can warmly recommend the exile series... Shareware though. And even more so the updated Avernum series, taking it from top down to isometric and improving gameplay
00:21:56 <Vorpal> alise, one of the best epic RPG series I ever played
00:21:56 <alise> Carbon Port
00:21:57 <alise> OS: MacOS 8.1 or later, MacOS 9, MacOS X
00:21:57 <alise> ...
00:21:59 <alise> Replaces previous Mac "Classic" port.
00:22:00 <Vorpal> well, the best
00:22:01 <alise> PAH!
00:22:03 <Vorpal> alise, ^
00:22:11 <alise> Vorpal: I'm not a huge RPG fan, I'm afraid.
00:22:16 <Vorpal> alise, aww
00:22:25 <Vorpal> alise, well it is a RPG/adventure mix rather
00:22:30 <alise> Holy shit, this means I need to get an OLDER VERSION of Nethack.
00:22:37 <alise> I thought it incomprehensible.
00:22:37 * Sgeo just ate 24 Kit-Kat bars
00:22:44 <alise> Sgeo: You are going to die
00:22:46 <alise> *die.
00:23:03 <Vorpal> alise, with an extensive game world and quite open gameplay (though it does converge towards a common goal)
00:23:09 <Sgeo> alise, so are you.
00:23:16 <alise> Sgeo: You'll die sooner.
00:23:50 <Vorpal> alise, in fact let me find a map of the game world from game 1. For most of the game you can move through all of it. So one area is seldom closed off after you left it:
00:24:06 <alise> "Sorry, these binaries will not run on 68K-based Macs."
00:24:07 <alise> Grr...
00:24:10 <alise> At 3.4.0 right now.
00:24:10 <Vorpal> alise, http://www.silverchat.com/~silver/Avernum/mainmap1.html
00:24:13 <alise> Have to go even older.
00:24:24 <alise> Vorpal: Well, yes, that is quite epic.
00:24:33 <Vorpal> alise, each of those areas are like 1 pixel = 4 tiles
00:24:38 <Vorpal> alise, in the zoomed in map
00:24:38 <alise> NetHack3.3.1 for 68K and PPC Macintosh
00:24:41 <alise> YAY
00:24:46 <alise> Vorpal: Seriously? Jesus.
00:24:48 <Sgeo> alise, hmm?
00:25:04 <alise> ftp://umn.dl.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/n/ne/nethack/nethack-331-fat.sit
00:25:05 <Sgeo> So I have much more than the recommended daily values of total fat for a day
00:25:06 <Vorpal> alise, wait, no, 1 block in http://www.silverchat.com/~silver/Avernum/Wrappers1/NepharFort.html = 1 tile
00:25:10 <alise> you'd better believe it
00:25:13 <Vorpal> alise, in the zoomed out version though...
00:25:20 <Sgeo> Is that necessarily fatal, especially when I'm underweight?
00:25:20 <Vorpal> alise, and that is the overworld
00:25:25 <alise> oh spiderweb software
00:25:31 <Vorpal> alise, where your 4 person party fits on one tile
00:25:31 <alise> that guy blogs interesting stuff occasionally
00:25:33 <Sgeo> alise, good luck going wishless in older versions
00:25:39 <Vorpal> alise, yes epicly good RPG
00:25:45 <alise> Sgeo: You can't just eat random crap to gain weight :P
00:25:49 <Vorpal> alise, in fact best RPG I ever played was avernum 2
00:25:54 <Sgeo> alise, aww, why not? :(
00:25:57 <alise> But I'm crazily unhealthy and even I wouldn't eat 24 Kit-Kat bars.
00:25:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've been thinking about sending a reminder email, but then I wonder if it'd be too naggy.
00:26:03 <alise> Sgeo: Ask Ilari. Have fun with that!
00:26:16 <alise> fizzie: It's not like you talk to him anyway.
00:26:23 <Vorpal> alise, what about space shooting extensive gameworld with *really* open game play
00:26:30 <Vorpal> alise, where you can side with either side
00:26:32 <Sgeo> Open gameplay?
00:26:36 <Vorpal> of the multiple conflicts
00:26:36 <Sgeo> Sounds like my sort of thing
00:26:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, it is mac only
00:26:45 <Vorpal> ambrosia software
00:26:47 <Vorpal> EV Override
00:26:53 * Sgeo bibbles
00:26:55 <Vorpal> awesome classic mac game
00:26:57 <Vorpal> wait
00:27:03 <Vorpal> not sure if it needs a real mac
00:27:09 <Vorpal> or if it works in sheepshaver
00:27:13 <ais523> !c printf("%d",'o');
00:27:13 <Vorpal> it might need a real mac
00:27:16 <Sgeo> I don't have room to pirate stuff
00:27:21 <EgoBot> 111
00:27:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I believe it is like 32 MB?
00:27:26 <ais523> !c printf("%x",'o');
00:27:27 <EgoBot> 6f
00:27:29 <Vorpal> or less
00:27:31 <ais523> ty EgoBot
00:27:34 <Sgeo> Wait WHAT?
00:27:43 <Vorpal> Sgeo, this is for classic mac os
00:27:46 <Sgeo> 32MB for Hackintosh or whatever it's called?
00:27:50 <alise> lol
00:27:50 <Sgeo> Oh, no
00:27:53 <alise> because os x = classic os
00:27:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I said the download
00:27:55 <Sgeo> n/m
00:28:01 <Sgeo> alise, I realized
00:28:13 <Vorpal> and I meant the ev override download size
00:28:15 <Sgeo> I'm not good with all this mac stuff, although I have a book somewhere...
00:28:16 <Vorpal> it is shareware
00:28:16 <alise> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/nethack/nethack/3.3.1/nethack-331-fat.sit
00:28:17 <Vorpal> so...
00:28:17 <Sgeo> Very old book
00:28:18 <alise> actually working URL
00:28:39 <Vorpal> "This product is not OS X compatible." http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evo/
00:28:46 <alise> hmph, that Doom crashes Basilisk II
00:29:03 <Vorpal> alise, it is the best space exploration / epic story / space battle game I ever played
00:29:12 <Vorpal> alise, has some RPG qualities maybe
00:29:19 <Vorpal> though I would not call it an RPG
00:29:20 <Vorpal> in any sense
00:29:31 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_Velocity_Override
00:29:33 <fizzie> Speaking of maps, there's a rather funny map of Morrowind with the Google Maps eggine, at http://www.uesp.net/maps/mwmap/mwmap.shtml -- it's less epic in scope, of course.
00:29:38 <Sgeo> Mac OS 8.5 For Dummies
00:29:42 <alise> lol @ NetHack Defaults
00:29:55 <alise> "# SCCS Id:"
00:30:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, morrowind?
00:30:10 <alise> oh sweet! you can enable a tty-style interface
00:30:17 <alise> as opposed to the multi-window one
00:30:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: A game in the Elder Scrolls saga. A modern thing, 2002 or so.
00:30:32 <Sgeo> "If you don't know how to turn your Mac on, get help."
00:30:38 <Sgeo> "Don't feel bad."
00:30:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, where did it say that?
00:30:49 <Sgeo> Chapter 1
00:30:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo, chapter 1 of *what*
00:31:02 <alise> <Sgeo> Mac OS 8.5 For Dummies
00:31:05 <Sgeo> The book I just said
00:31:06 <Vorpal> ah
00:31:12 <Vorpal> where did you find it
00:31:22 <Sgeo> On my neglected bookshelf
00:31:31 <Vorpal> alise, anyway if you can somehow get the chance to play ev override it is a must
00:32:04 <Vorpal> alise, the FOSS 3D game vegastrike had kind of same ambitions I feel but it seems dead and didn't nearly reach the same levels
00:32:21 <Vorpal> in fact the mission system was very incomplete in vegastrike
00:32:25 <Sgeo> I love the Vegastrike music
00:32:29 <Sgeo> The game, eh.
00:32:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, nah. I prefer wesnoth music
00:32:42 <Sgeo> Wesnoth music is great too
00:32:49 <Sgeo> Hell, all game music is great
00:32:52 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the game *could* have been awesome with more work
00:32:58 <Vorpal> it had the potential
00:33:07 <Sgeo> I think I opened it.. once, maybe
00:33:20 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I played it quite a bit, still quite fun
00:34:30 <Vorpal> EV override is top-down 2D though
00:34:41 <Vorpal> but awesome
00:34:57 * Sgeo curses his toe
00:35:03 <fizzie> Oh, and there's the Ultima 7 map, which is a 24576x24576 pixel image.
00:35:09 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I have ~6 hours of school on Mondays
00:35:40 <fizzie> ^show
00:35:40 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord test
00:35:53 <fizzie> ais523: We have that thing, too.
00:35:55 <fizzie> ^ord o
00:35:56 <fungot> 111
00:36:04 <fizzie> It doesn't do hex, though.
00:36:24 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, you heard of spiderweb software before?
00:36:26 <Sgeo> What's the syntax for other-based numbers in Smalltalk? 5r1234?
00:36:35 <Sgeo> Or am I misremembering some other language's feature?
00:36:42 <alise> Vorpal: yeah. his blog is quite well-read
00:36:48 <alise> Sgeo: isn't it base#num?
00:36:51 <Vorpal> alise, a one guy company?
00:36:53 <Vorpal> really?
00:36:56 <alise> Vorpal: yes.
00:37:02 <Vorpal> alise, if so how the frack did he pull off those games
00:37:06 <pikhq> alise: So, this is now officially the least-sucky desktop experience I have seen on Linux.
00:37:17 <Sgeo> http://merd.sourceforge.net/pixel/language-study/syntax-across-languages-per-language/Smalltalk.html
00:37:23 <alise> http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/
00:37:24 <alise> the guy
00:37:27 <alise> pikhq: what is?
00:37:29 <alise> XFCE?
00:37:30 <Vorpal> alise, there is extensive dialogue, lots of detailed seemingly hand made maps
00:37:31 <pikhq> Yeah.
00:37:32 <Vorpal> and so on
00:37:53 <alise> pikhq: it may not be sucky, but it's not very ... useful either
00:37:56 <alise> like, it does very little for you
00:37:57 <alise> i dunno
00:37:59 <Vorpal> alise, surely it would take a 2 or 3 person team, one artist, one programmer and someone working on map and stories
00:38:05 <pikhq> It's beautiful: there's hardly anything to it!
00:38:06 <Vorpal> alise, I can't imagine it being done with less
00:38:12 <Vorpal> alise, even if he never sleeps
00:38:14 <Sgeo> Wait
00:38:22 <Sgeo> I just realized the source of the thing I posted
00:38:29 <alise> Vorpal: or, maybe he just works on games for years and years :P
00:38:34 <alise> pikhq: You will grow to mildly detest it soon enough.
00:38:35 <Sgeo> alise, it's from the people behind your favorite language!
00:38:36 <alise> Yes, mild detest.
00:38:43 <alise> XFCE is a strange void of emotion.
00:38:47 <Vorpal> alise, there are too many in the avernum series for that now
00:38:50 <pikhq> alise: You're talking to someone who used Ratpoison for years.
00:38:53 <alise> merd isn't my favourite language
00:38:55 <alise> :P
00:39:04 <pikhq> "Does very little" is *not* a bad thing to me.
00:39:14 <alise> Vorpal: "Since then, has written many games, including the Exile, Geneforge, and Avernum series and Nethergate: Resurrection."
00:39:16 <alise> pikhq: Oh, yes.
00:39:19 <alise> But it does very little in an odd kind of way.
00:39:21 <alise> I can't articulate it.
00:39:44 <alise> pikhq: BTW, the /best/ Linux UI is ROX Desktop. Unfortunately, it's sort of incomplete.
00:39:52 <alise> Specifically, it lacks a window manager. Or much software at all.
00:39:59 <alise> (It's heavily inspired by RISC OS.)
00:40:36 <alise> pikhq: It's a filesystem-based DE (rather than an abstract, window-based one like GNOME/KDE/XFCE/etc.)
00:40:47 <alise> [[The first of these features is support for Application Directories. An application directory is a directory which contains an entire application -- its documentation, binaries, source code and so on. When you open an application directory in the filer the application is run. This has some interesting implications:]] ;; it's like OS X .apps, but much better done
00:41:12 <alise> e.g. root privilege for installing apps is never really exercised (you can do without it anyway but it's a pain)
00:41:26 <alise> you don't really need a package manager since it's all copying/deleting, and it's easy to have multiple versions of the same app
00:41:51 <alise> oh, and it has a standardised documentation system (choosing Help in the context menu opens the Help subdirectory of the app)
00:42:01 <alise> this also leads to easy support for things like Zero Install and the like
00:42:04 <Vorpal> alise, geneforge rocks too
00:42:09 <Vorpal> alise, only played a demo version
00:42:18 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and the rather awesome "drag-and-drop saving".
00:42:22 <Vorpal> alise, what is "since then" relative btw?
00:42:36 <alise> You /drag the open file/ from the application into a folder. It prompts for a name. And that's it, it's saved.
00:42:52 <alise> Funny what taking a metaphor and then rolling with it can leave you with.
00:44:13 <Vorpal> alise, and yes the avernum series (1, 2, 3, blades of avernum [those ran on classic Mac OS, never played avernum 4 or later]), and especially avernum 2 is my all time favourite of computer games. In all genres
00:44:18 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, what is "since then" relative btw?
00:44:19 <alise> eh?
00:44:20 <alise> oh
00:44:22 <alise> since founding Spiderweb
00:44:24 <Vorpal> ah
00:44:43 <oerjan> Sgeo: well if my lotion suggestion from yesterday didn't work, i suppose the next step is amputation. hth.
00:44:59 <alise> Oerjan Urology
00:44:59 <Vorpal> alise, warning though, avernum 1 and 2 runs perfectly on sheepshaver. avernum 3 only with sdl (but that crashes due to bugginess) and blades of avernum not at all
00:45:05 <Vorpal> so for the last two I get out my ibook
00:45:11 <Sgeo> oerjan, it isn't working permanently
00:45:35 <oerjan> alise: now you're just talking piss
00:46:06 <Vorpal> alise, and after the avernum series comes nethack on shared place with ev override
00:46:23 <Vorpal> different genres though
00:46:47 <Vorpal> NWN ranks up near the top too I have to say. Top 5 definitely
00:47:27 <Vorpal> I have to say that the story in the original NWN campaign is rather shallow though
00:47:30 <Vorpal> ais523, ^
00:47:41 <ais523> Vorpal: it's not really about the story
00:47:50 <Vorpal> ais523, hm
00:48:16 <Vorpal> ais523, what exactly is it about then
00:48:21 <alise> Gameplay...?
00:48:31 <Vorpal> well which parts of it
00:48:37 <alise> All ... of it...?
00:48:42 <Vorpal> the story and advancing it is a part of gameplay as well
00:48:44 <Vorpal> alise, ^
00:49:06 <alise> Yeah, because Doom's story had an effect on its gameplay.
00:49:12 <Vorpal> well no
00:49:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:49:27 <Vorpal> but the story in NWN does
00:49:55 <Vorpal> alise, you can't say that the story of lemmings or the story of final fantasy 3 have the same importance to the gameplay surely?
00:50:03 <alise> Lemmings had a /story/?
00:50:17 <Vorpal> alise, iirc yes, like a paragraph or something
00:50:20 <Vorpal> might misremember though
00:50:26 <Vorpal> alise, still you get my point?
00:50:33 <alise> Yeah, yeah.
00:51:08 <Vorpal> avernum has a rather deep and epic story which is intricately woven into the other aspects of gameplay.
00:51:41 <Vorpal> alise, avernum 2 is one of the few games I thought after playing "there is no way this could have been made even better than it was"
00:53:11 <Vorpal> the other few ones were other games I thought that about were avernum 3 and ev override. (Avernum 1 had some rough edges in the interface compared to the later games in the series, that meant it could be improved, but only in minor aspects)
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00:53:31 <Vorpal> alise, really you should try the demos in sheepshaver when you get it running.
00:53:40 <alise> Possibly.
00:54:08 <Vorpal> alise, exile, while basically the same story and working under 68k, are less well balanced gameplay-wise and has a more annoying user interface.
00:54:34 <alise> I still want some more programs for System 7 :(
00:54:50 <Vorpal> alise, you don't have it yet?
00:54:55 <alise> I do.
00:54:58 <alise> But I want more programs to run on it.
00:55:08 <Vorpal> alise, 68k or ppc?
00:55:18 <alise> 68k
00:55:24 <Vorpal> hm
00:55:45 <Vorpal> alise, I suspect ev override won't work in sheepshaver, though I haven't tried
00:56:03 <Vorpal> alise, it has a rather curious shareware mechanism though
00:56:15 <alise> "MacSSH"
00:56:16 <alise> AWESOME
00:56:36 <Vorpal> alise, after the time expired a space pirate starts messing up for you in the game.
00:56:50 <Vorpal> like credit fraud with your bank account there
00:56:54 <Vorpal> and shooting you down
00:56:56 <Vorpal> and such
00:57:18 <Vorpal> alise, before it expires he sometimes fly by you and reminds you to pay
00:58:12 * alise tries to find Graphing Calculator
00:58:26 <Vorpal> alise, not in 68k iirc?
00:58:30 <Vorpal> alise, it was PPC only
00:58:35 <Vorpal> alise, to show case the new PPC
00:58:41 <Vorpal> the abilities of it I mean
00:58:47 <Vorpal> alise, pretty sure I read that somewhere
00:59:08 <alise> Feel left out of the math graphing fun? The original 1.0 version did exist for 68k Macs, and you can download it here from Pacifit Tech's web site (scroll to the bottom).
00:59:10 <Vorpal> http://www.avernum.com/avernum6/images/A6StoreRoom.jpg <-- that looks more like genforge style graphics than avernum style to me
00:59:11 <alise> well ... there you go :P
00:59:19 <Vorpal> alise, huh
00:59:41 <Vorpal> alise, they need to learn about <a name="..."/>
00:59:41 <alise> http://www.pacifict.com/images/taylor.gif
00:59:42 <Vorpal> :P
00:59:48 <alise> image
00:59:52 <alise> they do
00:59:52 <alise> http://www.pacifict.com/Secrets.html#Taylor
00:59:53 <alise> they link to
00:59:55 <alise> which is quite close
01:00:00 <alise> wait no
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01:00:02 <Vorpal> alise, you said "scroll to the bottom"
01:00:02 <alise> that's not for 1.0
01:00:02 <alise> nm
01:00:04 <Vorpal> alise, :P
01:00:14 <Vorpal> alise, that is what I commented upon
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01:00:33 <alise> Version 1.0 is the original release which has shipped on over 10,000,000 machines since 1994. It is the last version available for 680x0 Macintosh computers.
01:00:33 <alise> Download 1.0 for 680x0
01:00:33 <alise> Download 1.0 for Power Macintosh
01:00:38 <alise> http://www.pacifict.com/gc68k.sit.bin
01:00:39 <alise> http://www.pacifict.com/gc10.sit.hqx
01:01:23 <alise> heh
01:01:30 <alise> it tells me i should use the one designed for macintoshes with FPUs :)
01:01:33 <alise> for better performance
01:01:36 <alise> ofc that's not distributed it seems
01:02:03 <alise> Vorpal: works great
01:02:15 <Vorpal> alise, nice
01:02:35 <alise> can simplify and everything
01:03:10 <Vorpal> alise, also are you sure about your hypothetical interest in myst? After all I seem to remember you said that you didn't have the patience to play it?
01:03:27 <alise> Vorpal: I only want it to experience the hypercard amazingness.
01:03:46 <Vorpal> alise, that makes me sad
01:04:14 <alise> Aww.
01:04:23 <alise> wow
01:04:30 <alise> translucency on system 7
01:04:31 <Sgeo> alise, play Uru!
01:04:35 <Sgeo> </ducks>
01:04:39 <alise> NuCalc is sweet
01:04:59 <Vorpal> alise, it feels all wrong to use the myst cd in this computer
01:05:05 <Vorpal> alise, it doesn't sound right
01:05:14 <Vorpal> it doesn't sound like a perfoma 4x drive seeking
01:05:28 <Vorpal> which is something I *strongly* associate with myst
01:05:35 <Vorpal> alise, :(
01:05:38 <alise> haha
01:05:46 <Vorpal> alise, it just isn't the same without that sound
01:06:20 <Vorpal> alise, besides graphics are dithered... They don't look halfway as good on a super sharp TFT as they did on that old CRT
01:06:59 <fizzie> Just apply some gaussian blur on it.
01:07:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
01:07:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the CD sound
01:07:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, a faint hum from the CRT also
01:07:24 <Vorpal> that is required
01:07:36 <alise> Vorpal: record the CD sound, patch it to play it and wait a few seconds at scene changes
01:07:39 <alise> record a faint CRT hum too
01:07:39 <Vorpal> though getting the CD noise right is WAY more important
01:07:42 <fizzie> If you can find a Performa, maybe you could record the sounds and play them back.
01:07:45 <Vorpal> alise, I don't have the performa any more
01:07:48 <Vorpal> sold it years ago
01:07:51 <alise> lol @ arbitrary delay though
01:08:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, didn't you have one?
01:08:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I believe it was almost same model
01:09:06 <alise> ais523: you know the mathematica thing where you can animate a graph/plot based on a variable increasing?
01:09:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: I sold mine too, some four or so years ago. I only keep one machine per cpu family (excepting x86), and the iBook was easier to store. :p
01:09:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, aww
01:09:17 <ais523> alise: yes?
01:09:17 <alise> yeah, NuCalc had that in 1994.
01:09:20 <alise> ais523: ^ :P
01:09:23 <ais523> doesn't surprise me
01:09:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: It went to a good home, I'm sure.
01:10:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, :/
01:10:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is CD-ROM sector size? (data)
01:11:20 <Vorpal> for dd copying the myst cd (for backup purposes only)
01:13:55 <alise> Vorpal:
01:13:57 <alise> SmoothType 2.3.1 Now with subpixel smoothing for LCD screens!
01:13:57 <alise> Brings Mac OS X style font smoothing to System 7 through Mac OS 9.2.
01:14:01 <alise> Vorpal: Where's your god now?
01:14:37 <Vorpal> alise, hm?
01:14:47 <alise> Vorpal: You said 9 was good because it had antialiasing.
01:14:48 <Vorpal> alise, well yes there are always madmens out there
01:14:50 <alise> Well, so does 7 up!
01:14:53 <Vorpal> alise, stock yes
01:14:58 <Vorpal> stock is what coulds
01:14:58 <fizzie> 2048 for ISO data tracks, IIRC.
01:15:00 <Vorpal> counts*
01:15:10 <fizzie> (Bytes.)
01:15:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, right
01:15:17 <alise> Pfft. Who didn't have a few extensions in thos edays?
01:15:21 <alise> *those days?
01:15:26 <Vorpal> alise, hm...
01:15:37 <Vorpal> alise, well.. stock OS came with several
01:15:44 <alise> Vorpal: A bigger issue is that I'm not certain it works with the default fonts.
01:15:50 <Vorpal> alise, ah
01:15:55 * Sgeo now worships Trog
01:16:11 <alise> Or maybe it does.
01:16:50 <alise> It does work with them.
01:17:03 <alise> Although the default font is slightly hideous in it.
01:17:23 <alise> Chicago, that is.
01:18:03 <alise> The subpixel smoothing is... uh, unique.
01:18:14 <alise> Very ... very blue.
01:18:29 <alise> Vorpal: But still, this is a CRT, it blurs away all the imperfections.
01:18:52 <Vorpal> alise, you are on a CRT?!
01:19:01 <fizzie> Hypothetically, if I had started to download that mac myst .dmg from the nautical bit-sharing place, I estimate it would now be at around 46% done, and have an ETA of 1 hour, 45 minutes. But I stress that this is a purely hypothetical scenario.
01:19:02 <alise> No.
01:19:06 <alise> But an old Mac user is.
01:19:10 <Vorpal> alise, hm
01:19:30 <alise> Hypothetically, I have sex with, and then kill, young children.
01:19:34 <alise> Hypothetically, mind you.
01:19:42 <alise> LOL @ 2-bit smoothing
01:19:47 <alise> That does not work, SmoothType.
01:19:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I have a iso here for backup purposes
01:19:54 <alise> It literally destroys the text.
01:19:58 * Vorpal sha512sums
01:19:59 <alise> Utterly unreadable, not just in the "really ugly" sense.
01:20:04 <alise> Some characters are actually unrecognisable.
01:20:23 <Vorpal> sha512sum /dev/sr0 myst.iso
01:20:25 <Vorpal> now to wait
01:20:34 <Vorpal> alise, the ISO is 549 MB btw
01:20:39 <alise> the antialiasing helps NuCalc a lot
01:21:13 <Vorpal> alise, so you said system 7 has as good AA as OS 9 eh?
01:21:30 <alise> Sure, if you use a good font.
01:21:36 <alise> Vorpal: anyway, that's just 2-bit
01:21:38 <alise> i.e. two colour antialiasing
01:21:39 <Vorpal> alise, using chigago
01:21:40 <alise> i.e. stupidest idea ever
01:21:44 <alise> 4-bit smoothing looks fine
01:21:48 <alise> Vorpal: it's only bad on an lcd
01:21:51 <alise> since the sharp edges look weird
01:21:53 <alise> on a crt, it'd be great
01:22:01 <alise> especially at large type sizes it's very smooth
01:22:03 <Vorpal> alise, I only used OS 9 on a LCD
01:22:15 <alise> meh, it's still good on an lcd
01:22:16 <Vorpal> alise, as in, ibook first gen
01:22:16 <alise> just a bit weird
01:22:28 <alise> well that's such a bad lcd who can tell :)
01:22:37 <Vorpal> "<alise> It literally destroys the text." "<alise> Some characters are actually unrecognisable." ... "<alise> just a bit weird"
01:22:40 <Vorpal> alise, XD
01:22:44 <alise> that's 2-bit, Vorpal
01:22:44 <alise> as in
01:22:44 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/rfk86/screen_splash.png -- anti-aliasing on a technically 1-bit screen. (In the "rfk86" text, on a slow enough LCD so that you can get shades by alternating frames. The screenshot's just emulated, of course.)
01:22:47 <alise> black and white antialiasing
01:22:49 <alise> it has three modes
01:22:50 <Vorpal> alise, oh
01:22:52 <alise> 4-bit (reasonable greyscale)
01:23:04 <alise> 2-bit (WTF????? Why did he even release this??? It's literally useless)
01:23:13 <alise> Subpixel (I guess it's okay if you have a really weird TFT)
01:23:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, known good sha512sum for iso of myst with dd: 07c4103829b4dd17dcee3245d80e8c35d0663b06c632c4cdc56c81b8588cea5554af1e8b9dff1f617912bf7606078004731f8a939081a12a59121c4c95eb11f8
01:23:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, if that is of any use to you
01:23:35 <alise> sha512sum. you're crazy
01:23:42 <Vorpal> alise, why is that?
01:23:45 <alise> :P
01:23:51 <Vorpal> alise, md5sum would be crazier
01:23:54 <alise> hmm, a good checksum hash would have similar strings have similar hashes
01:23:59 <alise> why? so you can measure how damaged it is
01:24:03 <alise> by how much the hashes differ
01:24:10 <alise> although collisions would be deadly
01:24:18 <Vorpal> alise, that defeats the purpose of hashes yeah
01:25:00 <fizzie> I can check against the hypothetical .dmg when it's done, but it might of course be a slightly different release, and anyway I'd have to unwrap the .dmg compression I think it has.
01:25:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mean you could hypothetically check against the hypothetical .dmg when it's hypothetically done?
01:25:52 <fizzie> Hypoyes.
01:26:08 <Vorpal> hah
01:26:12 <alise> did anyone make a nicer window manager for classic mac os? :P
01:26:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, that would be less than a normal yes?
01:26:29 <alise> say ... Basilisk II/Sheepshaver don't necessarily have to run Mac OS, do they?
01:26:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, using the usual hypo/hyper pair
01:26:35 <alise> anyone want to run Debian/PPC? :-D
01:26:42 <fizzie> It's 396.6 megahybytes, and the hyploader said it's from a 1993 Hyst release.
01:26:47 <Vorpal> alise, I doubt that works
01:26:53 <alise> why?
01:26:57 <alise> it doesn't do anything mac-specific does it?
01:26:59 <alise> the emulators that is
01:27:10 <Vorpal> alise, well... they don't emulate the real hardware
01:27:11 <alise> Cyst, the long-awaited sequel to Myst
01:27:12 <Vorpal> they use the rom
01:27:17 <alise> Vorpal: well, true
01:27:18 <Vorpal> alise, yes I think so
01:27:19 <fizzie> PearPC runs Debian/PPC, IIRC.
01:27:27 <alise> Vorpal: but what about the PPC bootloader that runs as an extension or whatever
01:27:29 <alise> or an app
01:27:30 <alise> PPC linux that is
01:27:40 <alise> it still emulates all the instructions, right?
01:27:41 <Vorpal> alise, after all you can't do 9.1 or later in sheepshaver because 9.1 starts using the MMU
01:27:48 <alise> hmm
01:28:03 <Vorpal> alise, which sheepshaver doesn't emulate more than required for 9.0 and older
01:28:09 <Vorpal> which was just filling in a single page iirc
01:28:20 <Vorpal> alise, and linux probably wants a good MMU
01:28:28 <Vorpal> alise, so yeah not likely to get that working
01:28:56 <Sgeo> My Troll Berserker is dead
01:29:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what game?
01:29:11 <Sgeo> DCSS
01:29:58 <fizzie> Oh, and qemu-ppc also runs Linux/PPC distros.
01:30:27 <Vorpal> xz -9 -e myst.iso
01:30:30 <Vorpal> best to save space
01:30:37 <Vorpal> on the backup
01:31:13 <alise> fizzie: Well, that much is obvious.
01:31:35 <Vorpal> alise, wait, do your graphics system and monitor support at least 256 colours. Otherwise you won't be able to run myst
01:31:38 <Vorpal> better check to make sure
01:32:00 <Vorpal> hypothetically that is
01:32:20 <alise> Vorpal: They support at least 257!
01:32:21 <alise> Wowzers!
01:32:51 <Vorpal> indeed that's impressive
01:34:09 <fizzie> Heh, qemu-system-m68k emulates oh-so-popular-and-useful hardware: http://p.zem.fi/qemu-sys-m68k
01:34:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, never heard of the two latter ones
01:35:29 <Vorpal> <alise> it still emulates all the instructions, right? <-- and I don't think so either.
01:35:43 <Vorpal> alise, you can't run macbug in either of basiliskII or sheepshaver
01:36:05 <Vorpal> err forgot a plural s there I think
01:36:10 <fizzie> "syborg Syborg (Symbian Virtual Platform)" (from qemu-system-arm); wonder who's responsible for the name.
01:36:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe the same guy as liboobs?
01:37:02 <Vorpal> (yes that exists)
01:37:06 <Vorpal> (some gnome thingy)
01:37:10 <alise> [[Any body suspended in space will remain in space until made aware of its situation. (The character walks off the edge of a cliff, remains suspended in midair, and doesn't fall until he looks down.)
01:37:10 <alise> Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter (the "silhouette of passage").
01:37:10 <alise> Certain bodies can pass through solid walls painted to resemble tunnel entrances; others cannot. (Corollary: Portable holes work.)
01:37:10 <alise> All principles of gravity are negated by fear. (i.e., scaring someone causes them to jump impossibly high in the air.)
01:37:12 <alise> Any violent rearrangement of feline matter is impermanent. (In other words, cats heal fast and/or have an infinite number of lives.)
01:37:15 <alise> Everything falls faster than an anvil. (A falling anvil will always land directly upon the character's head, squashing him flat or driving him into the ground.)]]
01:37:44 <fizzie> Sounds like that cartoon physics axioms page.
01:37:58 <alise> 'Tis.
01:38:07 <alise> Specific reference to cartoon physics extends back at least to June of 1980, when an article "O'Donnell's Laws of Cartoon Motion"[2] appeared in Esquire. A version printed in 1994 by the IEEE in a journal for engineers helped spread the word among the technical crowd, which has expanded and refined the idea. These laws are outlined on dozens of websites.
01:38:07 <alise> O'Donnell's examples include:
01:38:10 <alise> [then that]
01:38:13 <Vorpal> spam
01:38:18 <Vorpal> link this instead
01:39:28 <alise> i don't have a link
01:40:27 <Vorpal> mhm
01:41:04 <Vorpal> 525M → 307M, not too bad
01:45:26 <alise> Vorpal: challenge: recreate the Good Easy -- http://web.archive.org/web/20080328152949/http://www.winterspeak.com/columns/goodeasy.txt
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01:47:36 <alise> OrgASM is a set of files comprising a Universal Table driven Cross
01:47:36 <alise> Assembler for all MicroProcessors. The assembler is a port of the DOS TASM
01:47:36 <alise> with a graphic interface and EPROM downloading added. This suite runs under
01:47:36 <alise> Macintosh Programmers Workshop (now supplied free by Apple) and may also be
01:47:36 <alise> integrated into BBEdit using the ToolServer menu. All microprocessor tables
01:47:37 <alise> are in external text files and may extended or customised by the user.
01:47:40 <alise> TASM for Macintosh!
01:49:11 <alise> "BBEdit requires a PowerPC processor."
01:49:12 <alise> stfu :<
01:49:23 <alise> I'll just use 3.5.1 then
01:51:06 <augur> hey alise
01:51:12 <augur> remind me of your opinions on scheme
01:51:29 <alise> cool shit! useless in today's stupid software culture
01:51:32 <alise> R6RS is abhorrent
01:51:55 <augur> so you're an R5RS fan then
01:52:04 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: challenge: recreate the Good Easy -- http://web.archive.org/web/20080328152949/http://www.winterspeak.com/columns/goodeasy.txt <-- ?
01:52:53 <alise> augur: of course. who isn't?
01:52:59 <augur> alise: :)
01:53:04 <alise> Vorpal: ?
01:53:12 <Vorpal> alise, what about it
01:53:17 <Vorpal> alise, it isn't how I like it
01:53:20 <augur> alise: im teaching a SICP class to some friends
01:53:21 <alise> Vorpal: it would just be fun to try and recreate it
01:53:25 <Vorpal> alise, so I don't take that challenge
01:53:40 <Vorpal> alise, I want resedit alias on desktop for example
01:55:47 <alise> Fun fact: The Finder has no preferences.
01:56:14 <augur> doesnt it?
01:56:25 <alise> augur: not in classic Mac OS, at least
01:56:32 <augur> o ok
01:56:32 <alise> (pah OS X! barely even counts as Mac OS)
01:56:38 <alise> (I see no traces of System Software 6 in there!)
01:56:39 <augur> true enough
01:56:45 <augur> HOORAY NEXTSTEP
01:56:47 <coppro> you can't, say, make it show hidden files
01:56:52 <alise> coppro: there are no hidden files
01:57:01 * augur caresses his NeXTstation
01:57:05 <alise> also, it has one or two View options, but they apply to the current folder
01:57:12 <alise> specifically, it's just icon vs list view
01:58:22 <coppro> alise: oh, classic
01:58:34 <coppro> it doesn't hide .* then?
01:58:40 <alise> coppro: it's not Unix-based; why would it?
01:58:46 <coppro> dunno
01:58:49 <alise> Windows doesn't hide .* either
01:59:02 <alise> in a more subtle sense it has a great number of hidden files, i.e. resource forks
01:59:05 <alise> and those are quite hard to get at
01:59:24 <alise> Vorpal: wow, you can get Network Time for OS 7 :)
01:59:35 <alise> Network Time contacts a time server using the Apple MacTCP network software to get the correct time of day. Network Time automatically adjusts your clock taking into consideration the time zone and the daylight savings time rules that you configure using the Network Time control panel.
02:00:00 <alise> proper NTP and everything
02:02:11 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: wow, you can get Network Time for OS 7 :) <-- hm nice
02:02:22 <Vorpal> alise, won't need it in sheepshaver or basiliskII
02:02:32 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think drifting is a problem in them
02:02:51 <Vorpal> alise, the ROM stuff is too high level for that to become a problem for the system clock
02:02:59 <Vorpal> you can work around it basically
02:10:22 <Vorpal> night
02:10:33 <Vorpal> alise, see you tomorrow then
02:10:38 <Vorpal> hypothetically
02:10:40 <alise> farlintog
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02:10:47 <Vorpal> alise, what?
02:10:54 <alise> grotylin!
02:11:07 <Vorpal> alise, rot13?
02:11:17 <alise> larkinmo.
02:11:20 <alise> *larkinmot.
02:11:25 <Vorpal> alise, I'm to
02:11:28 <Vorpal> too*
02:11:30 <Vorpal> tried to work this out
02:11:47 <Vorpal> I don't have rot13(1) on here
02:11:52 <Vorpal> alise, so whatever
02:12:04 <alise> it's not rot 13.
02:12:11 <Vorpal> alise, what is it then
02:12:33 <alise> nothing
02:12:34 <alise> at all
02:13:24 <Vorpal> oh, random then
02:13:40 <Vorpal> night
02:15:03 <pikhq> http://www.theonion.com/articles/bush-our-long-national-nightmare-of-peace-and-pros,464/ This was prescient. Fuck.
02:16:38 <coppro> pikhq: video game censorship laws before SCOTUS... whee
02:16:48 <pikhq> "Much work lies ahead of us: The gap between the rich and the poor may be wide, be there's much more widening left to do. We must squander our nation's hard-won budget surplus on tax breaks for the wealthiest 15 percent. And, on the foreign front, we must find an enemy and defeat it."
02:16:55 <pikhq> NOT REALITY
02:16:57 <pikhq> A JOKE
02:18:47 * coppro flees to Europe
02:19:09 <alise> coppro: but you're in Canada, dude.
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02:19:44 <ais523> well, you wouldn't flee to Europe if you were already there
02:19:50 <coppro> alise: Yes! Right next to them!
02:20:00 <alise> xD
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02:20:52 <coppro> The only reason I'm not actually afraid of an American invasion is because Europe exists!
02:22:28 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, you guys are sure to be way down the list. Likewise with Europe.
02:22:58 <pikhq> We prefer targets that won't actually fight back hardcore. Which is why we avoid nuclear powers.
02:23:07 <pikhq> And pretty much any developed nation.
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02:26:18 <alise> pikhq: hmm... in Haskell, how would you code something that generates [(Int(eger),Char)] such that the integer at position n is the number of alphabetical characters proceeding it, plus 1?
02:26:35 <alise> erm
02:26:38 <alise> proceeding it and including it
02:26:39 <alise> plus 0
02:26:54 <alise> i.e. "a,!bc" -> [(1,'a'),(1,','),(1,'!'),(2,'b'),(3,'c')]
02:32:45 <coppro> pikhq: /we/ can't fight back
02:33:27 <coppro> the only real reason we won't get attacked every is because it would alienate the planet
02:33:31 <coppro> *ever
02:38:47 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Char; munch l = zip (scanl (+) 1 $ map (fromEnum . isAlpha) l) l; main = print $ munch "a,!bc"
02:38:56 <EgoBot> [(1,'a'),(2,','),(2,'!'),(2,'b'),(3,'c')]
02:39:28 <alise> oerjan: thou failest so
02:39:31 <alise> although actually
02:39:34 <alise> it doesn't matter in this case
02:39:34 <alise> so thx
02:39:44 <oerjan> um wait you said preceeding but meant preceding or same
02:39:53 <alise> well actually it works fine here
02:39:55 <alise> <alise> proceeding it and including it
02:40:00 <alise> thanks
02:40:06 <alise> zip =<< scanl (+) 1 . map (fromEnum . isAlpha)
02:40:07 <alise> fwiw
02:40:15 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Char; munch l = zip (scanl1 (+) $ map (fromEnum . isAlpha) l) l; main = print $ munch "a,!bc"
02:40:21 <EgoBot> [(1,'a'),(1,','),(1,'!'),(2,'b'),(3,'c')]
02:40:26 <oerjan> argh
02:40:34 <alise> that's perfect
02:40:36 <oerjan> er wait that was right
02:40:36 <alise> why are you going argh
02:40:47 <oerjan> compared with the wrong line :D
02:40:58 <pikhq> coppro: You guys have money. Our preferred targets have starvation.
02:41:07 -!- kwertii has joined.
02:41:46 * coppro remembers the Canadian Caper
02:42:11 <oerjan> alise: using the -> monad would require another import btw
02:42:15 <pikhq> Besides, you guys burned down the White House. Clearly you can fight back.
02:42:25 <alise> oerjan: yeah, indeed
02:43:28 <oerjan> some people _might_ consider using fromEnum on a Bool a bit hacky ;D
02:44:06 <alise> haha wow
02:44:09 <alise> i just noticed that
02:44:21 <alise> oerjan: well the booleans are just N mod 2 right????
02:44:28 <alise> totally mathematically justified dude
02:44:46 <oerjan> presumably
02:45:19 <alise> mustified
02:45:20 <coppro> pikhq: mercenaries
02:48:09 <alise> oerjan: Zqxv wkdian qae kgykaga odxr boeg lw ynpa. Qyh xhrxsignmgu rlcesrdmi evc jbp.
02:48:42 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, we've got mercenaries too.
02:48:53 <pikhq> All over Iraq, in fact.
02:49:01 <oerjan> gah do we have any rot13 bot
02:49:14 <oerjan> !help userinterps
02:49:15 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
02:49:24 <oerjan> !userinterps
02:49:25 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
02:49:38 <oerjan> !rot13 Zqxv wkdian qae kgykaga odxr boeg lw ynpa. Qyh xhrxsignmgu rlcesrdmi evc jbp.
02:49:40 <EgoBot> Mdki jxqvna dnr xtlxntn bqke obrt yj lacn. Dlu kuekfvtazth eyprfeqzv rip woc.
02:49:45 <oerjan> argh
02:50:05 <oerjan> ok so presumably that was related to your haskell question
02:50:19 <alise> oerjan: only to make writing cyphers easy
02:50:26 <alise> previously the punctuation was messing up the count
02:50:33 <oerjan> hm
02:50:53 * oerjan is too lazy to try harder
02:51:29 <pikhq> xbaavgvun, zvaanfnzn. xvklbh g'bh lnkghgrveh xn.
02:54:49 <alise> !rot13 xbaavgvun, zvaanfnzn. xvklbh g'bh lnkghgrveh xn.
02:54:49 <EgoBot> konnitiha, minnasama. kixyou t'ou yaxtuteiru ka.
02:55:01 <alise> pikhq: either lojban or my cypher?
02:55:03 <alise> *cipher
02:55:23 <oerjan> that looks too japanese to be an accident
02:55:32 <Gregor> It is axiomatic that well-encrypted text is indistinguishable from Lojban.
02:55:32 <alise> ah, yes
02:56:15 <oerjan> hm...
02:56:17 <oerjan> `echo hi
02:56:26 <pikhq> oerjan: I just thought rot13'd Japanese would look funny. And it did.
02:56:39 <HackEgo> No output.
02:56:53 <pikhq> alise: LOJBANCYPHER
02:56:58 <oerjan> `quote
02:57:14 <HackEgo> No output.
02:57:15 <oerjan> Gregor: ^
02:57:21 <alise> <EgoBot> konnitiha, minnasama. kixyou t'ou yaxtuteiru ka.
02:57:21 <alise> is
02:57:24 <alise> jmkjdnbzr, cxbamdkvi. roccrw u'ot wxtoomwzhj yn
02:57:25 <alise> in mine
02:57:32 <alise> this probably makes it easy to decode.
02:58:03 <oerjan> well given you already revealed you needed the positions...
02:58:46 <alise> quite
03:01:04 <alise> oerjan: i assume you've decoded it, then
03:02:25 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
03:03:04 <oerjan> >_>
03:03:28 -!- Gregor has joined.
03:03:51 <alise> oerjan: <_<
03:04:10 <alise> Sgeo: pikhq: I'm about to play NetHack from the comfortable interface of a 68k Macintosh on nethack.eu.
03:04:34 <Sgeo> Yay, alise is finally using a server
03:04:49 <alise> only for this
03:04:54 <Sgeo> Ooh, colorful screen
03:05:03 <Sgeo> Sorry, no games available for viewing
03:05:28 <alise> yeah, sec
03:05:57 <Sgeo> Also, try Crawl
03:06:01 <Sgeo> Troll Berserkers are fun
03:06:09 <alise> ok, about to start
03:06:25 <alise> now to get graphics to work
03:06:29 <alise> I'm alise68k
03:06:33 <Sgeo> s wasn't stripping anything
03:06:37 <alise> wow
03:06:39 <alise> ibmgraphics works
03:06:46 <alise> are you connected?
03:06:48 <Sgeo> Yes
03:06:58 <Sgeo> And PuTTY was set up for IBMGraphics
03:07:13 <Sgeo> And not DECgraphics apparently
03:07:22 <alise> looks like i have to use the ansi PC font to get any kind of graphics
03:07:36 <alise> which is slightly problematic as it doesn't scale well
03:07:58 <Sgeo> Is it possible for you to put Dejavu Sans Mono on?
03:08:07 <alise> haha
03:08:08 <alise> "no"
03:08:12 <alise> and besides, it wouldn't have the right charset
03:08:17 <alise> this one has the ansi ones mapped to the right ones
03:08:18 <Sgeo> Hmm?
03:08:21 <alise> so it works with decgraphics
03:08:25 <alise> *ibmgraphics
03:08:27 <alise> Sgeo: no unicode in old mac os...
03:08:35 <Sgeo> Dejavu Sans Mono works fine with IBMgraphics for me... hmm
03:08:45 <Sgeo> I thought IBMgraphics didn't use unicode?
03:08:49 * Sgeo is thoroughly confused
03:08:58 <alise> it doesn't, which is why i'm using it
03:08:59 <Sgeo> Yet happy that he knows how to spell thoroughly
03:09:09 <alise> tl;dr putty does clever stuff
03:09:21 <Sgeo> Ah
03:10:22 <alise> this works surprisingly well
03:10:57 <Sgeo> You should always use a server ;)
03:11:06 <alise> bullshit
03:11:07 <Sgeo> Although really, nethack.eu seems a bit inactive
03:11:11 <alise> i meant "on the macintosh"
03:11:16 <alise> nethack.eu is the only option for people in europe
03:11:20 <alise> nethack.alt.org is impossibly slow
03:11:44 <Sgeo> Is crawl.akrasiac.org impossibly slow for Europeans?
03:12:18 <alise> no grpahics is easiest with this
03:12:20 <Sgeo> Oh, you had both DEC and IBM on at once?
03:12:22 <alise> Sgeo: stripping?
03:12:30 <alise> oh, s
03:12:32 <Sgeo> Yeah
03:12:33 <alise> and no, i didn't
03:12:38 <ais523> alise: nethack.fi is a different option in europe
03:12:46 <ais523> but it's even more inactive than nethack.eu
03:12:48 <Sgeo> So then why did it stop being weird yet you were using DEC?
03:12:55 <alise> god knows
03:12:56 <Sgeo> ais523, more inactive than dead?
03:13:21 <alise> ais523: this may be the first time anyone's played a recent version of NetHack on a 68k Mac OS.
03:13:25 <alise> nethack.eu isn't dead, Sgeo
03:13:26 <alise> consider
03:13:29 <alise> it's 3:13 am in the UK
03:13:35 <alise> even later/earlier in other parts of europe
03:13:39 <Sgeo> Hmm, true
03:15:11 <ais523> "alise68k" is your NEU username?
03:15:16 <alise> ais523: on this machine it is
03:15:32 <ais523> people normally share NetHack accounts across machines
03:15:36 <ais523> it's one of the reasons to play online
03:15:36 <alise> I have no graphics on atm; I can use IBMgraphics, but only with a font with awkward sizes (multiples of 8pt or multiples of 10pt)
03:15:40 <alise> ais523: yes, but I forgot my password to "alise".
03:15:42 <alise> sue me
03:16:15 <alise> i'm only playing for the novelty of the machine, anyway :P
03:19:09 <alise> Tired?
03:19:11 <alise> Never seen that before.
03:19:27 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:19:42 <alise> magic trap, ok
03:19:46 <zzo38> I have now designed all of the blackboard bold letters, except for "S".
03:19:54 <alise> you're /making your own typeface/?
03:20:44 <zzo38> alise: Yes
03:20:54 <zzo38> Here it is, so far: http://sprunge.us/HKfN
03:21:05 <alise> Sgeo: I'll try Crawl now. Where did you say?
03:21:19 <Sgeo> crawk.akrasiac.org
03:21:20 <zzo38> Now I learned METAFONT, and really it is best program for designing a typeface.
03:21:21 <Sgeo> ssh though
03:21:25 <alise> zzo38: And webmath_bbb?
03:21:28 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:21:28 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:21:30 -!- EgoBot has joined.
03:21:31 -!- HackEgo has joined.
03:21:36 <alise> Sgeo: That's okay; I'm using MacSSH.
03:21:55 <Sgeo> Wait, how'd your NH char die?
03:21:57 <Sgeo> I wasn't watching
03:22:00 <alise> I #quat.
03:22:05 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/caVi
03:22:12 <alise> Also, *crawl., presumably.
03:22:25 <Sgeo> Yeah
03:22:40 <alise> zzo38: Care to make a .dvi or .ps showcasing these characters?
03:22:48 <alise> Sgeo: User/pass?
03:22:51 <Sgeo> joshua/joshua
03:23:21 <alise> The connection ends immediately. Hm.
03:23:50 <zzo38> Do you have METAFONT? If you have METAFONT, generate the .dvi by yourself.
03:24:05 <Sgeo> I didn't typo crawl.akrasiac.org besides the crawl, did I?
03:24:10 <Sgeo> ^copy/pasted from the website
03:25:11 <zzo38> You can make any suggestion for improvement, if you have any suggestion about the typeface, and other comment, just suggest it, or else write a code and I might include it if I want to
03:25:21 <alise> Perhaps it dislikes my SSH client.
03:25:25 <alise> Sgeo: any other Crawl servers?
03:25:30 <alise> zzo38: I don't have METAFONT, which is the issue.
03:25:36 <zzo38> alise: What SSH client are you using?
03:25:40 <alise> It would be quite convenient if you could prepare a .dvi.
03:25:44 <alise> zzo38: MacSSH on Mac OS 7.6.1.
03:25:49 <zzo38> alise: Do you have a DVI viewing software? If so, yes I will post it
03:25:56 <Sgeo> CDO and.. something else
03:26:03 <Sgeo> Oooh, CDO is in Europe, fwiw
03:26:05 <alise> zzo38: I do, yes.
03:26:09 <alise> Sgeo: CDO?
03:26:20 <Sgeo> crawl.develz.org
03:26:24 <Sgeo> telnet port 345
03:26:42 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/webmath/webmath.dvi
03:26:58 <alise> Sgeo: Crawl doesn't use any PC-specific characters, right?
03:27:10 <Sgeo> alise, not by default, I think
03:27:13 <alise> zzo38: "DVI document has incorrect format"... how strange.
03:27:16 <zzo38> alise: I think Crawl can be configured both ways
03:27:17 <alise> Sgeo: Can it be configured to?
03:27:30 <Sgeo> It has options for IBM I _think_ and Unicode for certain
03:27:52 * Sgeo uses Unicode
03:28:08 <zzo38> alise: I don't know why the DVI document has incorrect format
03:28:13 <zzo38> It works on my computer.
03:29:04 <alise> I'll try xdvi.
03:29:44 <Sgeo> alise, trying, or not?
03:29:55 <alise> Sgeo: in a sec
03:30:05 <alise> Do I want trunk?
03:30:34 <Sgeo> I don't know
03:30:46 <Sgeo> On CAO, the options are 0.7.1 and 0.6.something
03:31:00 <Sgeo> And some variants or other
03:31:11 <alise> I'll play 0.7.1, then.
03:32:17 <alise> Sgeo: what configuration option changes the characters used?
03:32:23 <Sgeo> alise, um...
03:32:27 <alise> xD
03:32:49 <Sgeo> char set[1/2]: To change your character set to IBM, add "char_set = IBM" to your options. Then, if you use putty, you need to go to Window->Translation->Recieved data assumed to be in which character set: "CP437".
03:33:07 <alise> what's 2/2?
03:33:19 <Sgeo> <Henzell> char set[2/2]: For Unicode encoding, use "char_set = unicode", and make sure putty is set to receive data in "UTF-8" or your locale is "en_US.utf8".
03:33:33 <alise> hmm
03:33:36 <alise> is it possible to use plain ANSI?
03:33:43 <Sgeo> That's default, I think
03:33:48 <alise> Okay.
03:33:52 <alise> Can it be changed in-game, do you know?
03:34:14 <zzo38> I am using PuTTY right now, as the terminal window for IRC. But PuTTY can also be used for SSH, Telnet, Rlogin.
03:34:16 <Sgeo> Y... you'd have to change the rc file, but Crawl reads the RC on each startup, not each new game
03:34:51 <alise> Okay, final question: wtf is Sprint?
03:35:07 <Sgeo> A variant, I think
03:35:08 <zzo38> (PuTTY uses xterm control codes, but when I try to run PHIRC in actual xterm, it doesn't work.)
03:35:59 <alise> Sgeo: Okay, now game-relevant questions. (You can tune in to alise64k on CDO now.)
03:36:02 <zzo38> Does the DVI file work now?
03:36:04 <alise> Which race is the easiest for new players?
03:36:08 <alise> zzo38: I'm installing stuff to make it work.
03:36:09 <Sgeo> Um
03:36:28 <zzo38> Try any race, if you don't like it, try another one.
03:36:37 <Sgeo> Merfolk Ice Elemental is what was recommended to me, but I'm having much more fun and finding it very easy as Troll Berserker
03:36:46 <Sgeo> Don't do Demigod
03:36:50 <alise> zzo38: I mean the analogue of Valkyrie Dwarf.
03:37:11 <Sgeo> Demigods sucks
03:37:14 <alise> Whoops
03:37:19 <alise> >_<
03:37:21 <alise> How can I quit?
03:37:22 <alise> Oh
03:37:23 <alise> There
03:37:44 * Sgeo wonders why Merfolk cna't be...
03:37:47 <alise> Why is Fighter blinking?
03:37:58 <Sgeo> Oh, the gray without N/A means "more difficult combination"
03:38:02 <Sgeo> It's not?
03:38:05 <Sgeo> It's just selected?
03:38:09 <alise> Okay.
03:38:11 <alise> Here we go.
03:38:15 <alise> Now I need to figure out how to play it.
03:38:18 <Sgeo> Um, what's your terminal size?
03:38:22 <alise> Ew, okay, I really need some graphics or these #s will give me a seizure.
03:38:26 <alise> Sgeo: 80x24? Maybe?
03:38:33 <zzo38> I suppose, you can turn off blinking in the terminal emulator if you do not want blinking
03:38:34 <alise> Yep
03:38:55 <Sgeo> eee
03:39:05 <Sgeo> Also, yeah, things appeared mashed-up to me
03:40:17 <alise> It's IBM now.
03:40:30 <Sgeo> It's still being weird for me
03:41:11 <alise> zzo38: Is there not a way to show the character in normal text size, black?
03:41:11 <Sgeo> I see SH as being in inside the map
03:41:13 <Sgeo> That's wrong
03:41:19 <alise> Sgeo: I just quit.
03:41:23 <alise> (crashed BII)
03:41:38 <alise> zzo38: I do not understand why some of your characters are serif and some are sans serif.
03:41:39 <Sgeo> o.O
03:41:56 <alise> Sgeo: I /am/ playing from a 68k Mac OS...
03:42:42 <zzo38> alise: I made sans serif for more simple, but some are a bit serif because some such as "I" won't look good with sans serif
03:43:21 <zzo38> It is so that you can understand the letters more easily some of them by adding some serif
03:43:35 <alise> This probably reflects a bug in the program.
03:43:35 <alise> The error was 'XF86DGANoDirectVideoMode'.
03:43:35 <alise> :(
03:47:02 <pikhq> zzo38: Whaddya mean?
03:49:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
03:51:46 <pikhq> alise: http://soundcloud.com/ It's Youtube for music.
03:52:28 <alise> But oh so boringly legal.
03:52:45 <pikhq> True.
03:53:04 <pikhq> If you want illegal you need a torrent.
03:57:20 <alise> Sgeo: broadcasting again
03:57:24 <alise> so i should search now, right?
03:57:30 <Sgeo> Hold on
03:57:31 <zzo38> pikhq: I mean, did you look? Maybe if you look, then you can know how I meant?
03:58:04 <Sgeo> PuTTY doesn't like it
03:58:23 <pikhq> zzo38: ?
03:58:39 <alise> Sgeo: it's IBM
03:58:49 <zzo38> pikhq: First, tell me, what specifically are you asking about? And then, maybe I can help?
03:58:57 <Sgeo> alise, not what I meant
03:59:04 <Sgeo> But it's having a lot of trouble with the layout
03:59:09 <Sgeo> Is it laying out properly for you?
03:59:12 <alise> it's 80x24
03:59:13 <alise> looks fine to me
03:59:25 <Sgeo> Not to me :(
03:59:33 <pikhq> zzo38: Okay, pulled up that font.
03:59:50 <Sgeo> It doesn't break the word information across a two lines for you?
03:59:54 <alise> nope
03:59:59 <alise> but anyway
04:00:01 <alise> i should serach now, right?
04:00:11 <Sgeo> Use x to look at your surroundings
04:00:15 <Sgeo> I'm not sure what those are
04:00:35 <alise> Just a stone staircase.
04:00:36 <alise> *search
04:00:37 <pikhq> zzo38: The vertical line on the I should be longer. Also, I'd hesitate to call that a "serif". It's just part of the glyph.
04:00:39 <alise> But what's the thing that walks around for you?
04:00:43 <Sgeo> o
04:00:59 <Sgeo> But right now I can't see a single thing that's going on
04:01:08 <alise> Sgeo: argh
04:01:09 <alise> i mean
04:01:13 <alise> the thing that does all the tedious stuff
04:01:13 <alise> explore
04:01:15 <alise> or something
04:01:20 <zzo38> pikhq: That is OK, then don't call it a serif. The only vertical line on the I is the main vertical line.
04:01:21 <Sgeo> o
04:01:28 <alise> that just asks me for a location
04:01:33 <alise> oh, there
04:01:34 <pikhq> zzo38: Erm, s/vertical/horizontal/
04:01:57 <alise> Sgeo: Can I Elbereth?
04:01:59 <Sgeo> No
04:02:04 <alise> Then ...
04:02:04 <Sgeo> You can walk around pillars
04:02:07 <Sgeo> Like that one over there
04:02:11 <zzo38> OK. But I think the horizontal line is long enough
04:02:11 <alise> What?
04:02:20 <Sgeo> See that square of 2 walls?
04:02:23 <Sgeo> Walk around it
04:02:37 <Sgeo> Although this is rather despised due to tedious scummy nature
04:02:46 <alise> I don't get it.
04:02:49 <Sgeo> Also, I still can't see what's going on
04:02:59 <zzo38> The horizontal line on the top and bottom is programmed to be three times as long as the distance between the vertical lines.
04:03:00 <Sgeo> alise, to give you time to heal while K chases you
04:03:06 <Sgeo> Be sure to use diag movement
04:03:09 <alise> Sgeo: I don't know what you are talking about; what pillar?
04:03:17 <Sgeo> ∙▒▒∙∙
04:03:36 <alise> I see no such thing.
04:03:45 <zzo38> If you think the line should be longer, how long do you think the line should be?
04:04:02 <alise> Wait, I have an idea. I'll quit this game.
04:04:04 <Sgeo> ...
04:04:12 <alise> What?
04:04:13 <Sgeo> Ctrl-Q I think
04:04:13 <alise> Sgeo: no, I mean
04:04:16 <alise> a Mac OS idea
04:04:21 <Sgeo> Oh
04:04:24 <alise> to make this terminal bearable
04:04:45 <Sgeo> I don't see how the terminal you're using has such a drastic horrid effect
04:04:46 <Sgeo> :/
04:04:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Look at a monospace "I". That's about right.
04:04:52 <alise> Sgeo: the font
04:04:58 <alise> is either tiny or unreadable
04:05:26 <zzo38> pikhq: OK. However, the blackboard bold letters in this font are not meant to be monospace.
04:06:05 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes. I'm just giving it as an example. Because I should be very, very distinct from "l" in all cases.
04:06:23 <zzo38> I do intend to include other stuff in the font, too, some of which might be monospace, such as "typewriter control graphics".
04:06:30 <pikhq> (and it looks really weird with it being so tiny and... Serif-like.)
04:06:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I do agree with that.
04:07:16 <zzo38> But look at the top of the page, the Computer Modern font uses serifs on the top and bottom of "I" like that.
04:07:38 <Sgeo> alise, still
04:07:46 <Sgeo> Maybe we should ask for help in ##crawl ?
04:07:52 <alise> /I/ have no issues.
04:08:23 <Sgeo> Maybe it's my font somehow?
04:08:33 <alise> I'm using ASCII now.
04:08:34 <zzo38> If I change the program, what width do you suggest I program in for those lines? (Currently it is programmed to be three times the width between the two vertical lines)
04:08:34 <alise> So no worries.
04:08:47 <Sgeo> It's all screwed up
04:08:47 <Sgeo> Still
04:08:53 <alise> Sgeo: screenshot
04:09:06 <alise> zzo38: I suggest twice instead.
04:10:04 <zzo38> alise: OK, well, pikhq suggests making it longer, you suggest shorter.... perhaps I will just keep it as it is, and let other people modify it if they don't like it.....
04:10:07 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/Wa9nE.png
04:10:48 <alise> zzo38: restart your terminal, disable any conversion stuff
04:10:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: Maybe CRLF is misconfigured?
04:11:13 <zzo38> Or something else is misconfigured?
04:11:54 <Sgeo> Me?
04:12:00 <Sgeo> alise, did you mean me instead of zzo?
04:12:04 <alise> yes
04:12:55 <Sgeo> No good
04:13:03 <Sgeo> Maybe I can ask someone else
04:13:11 <Sgeo> Oh, and MfIE is a magic user
04:13:19 <alise> How do I use it?
04:13:24 <alise> >_>
04:13:32 <Sgeo> z
04:13:37 <Sgeo> Read spellbooks
04:13:39 <Sgeo> with r
04:13:45 <Sgeo> Spellbooks contain multiple spells
04:13:49 <alise> I can freeze.
04:13:53 <alise> What use is that?
04:13:58 <Sgeo> To kill things?
04:14:07 <alise> Yeah, I don't actually know how to aim this shit...
04:14:21 <Sgeo> Aiming with freeze is just a direction, since it's range 1
04:14:50 <alise> How do you wait-until-something?
04:14:51 <Sgeo> May I ask in ##crawl if your game is screwy for anyone else?
04:14:53 <alise> That you talked about.
04:14:54 <alise> Sure.
04:14:56 <Sgeo> 5
04:15:04 <Sgeo> (not on numpad, which needs shift-5)
04:15:40 <alise> How do you explore again? >_>
04:15:48 <alise> Ah, o.
04:16:22 <alise> Sgeo: Halp.
04:16:31 <Sgeo> I can barely see what's going on
04:16:43 <Sgeo> They're suggesting that there's a termsize thing
04:16:48 <alise> Sgeo: http://imgur.com/mZpcL.png
04:16:49 <alise> Halp.
04:17:05 <Sgeo> Um
04:17:25 <Sgeo> Praying does not work like in NetHack
04:17:33 <alise> Good to know ...
04:17:47 <Sgeo> You could try killing it with freeze, or checking inventory
04:18:16 <alise> I already tried freezing.
04:18:28 <Sgeo> Did it hurt the kobold at all?
04:18:31 <alise> Sgeo: Quaffing the potion worthwhile?
04:18:33 <alise> Yes, it hurt it a bit.
04:18:43 <Sgeo> Could be a good potion
04:18:58 <Sgeo> COuld be bad. They're rarely fatal though, unless you're in the middle of combat
04:19:06 <Sgeo> Not sure which is the best choice of action
04:19:16 <Sgeo> Please, fix your termsize thing?
04:20:11 <alise> what have I done wrong?
04:20:20 <zzo38> Obviously you have already made a mistake, try again and perhaps be more careful, a bit?
04:20:32 <Sgeo> Hmm?
04:20:47 <Sgeo> Um, is it possible that your terminal thing is misreporting as 80x24?
04:20:54 <alise> Sgeo: It IS 80x24.
04:21:09 <Sgeo> Please, get in ##crawl ?
04:23:25 <Sgeo> alise?
04:25:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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04:26:52 <alise> Sgeo: choko?
04:26:59 <Sgeo> ...not sure
04:27:08 <Sgeo> I think chocolate. Um, you can see a description
04:27:23 <Sgeo> In inventory, press the leter of the thing you want to see a description of
04:27:45 <alise> Not chocolate.
04:28:09 <pikhq> Fuck it. I am now getting all my news about the US from the BBC.
04:28:36 <pikhq> They have better reporting about what is, to them, *a foreign country* than native news reporting.
04:28:53 <Sgeo> alise, get back to the main screen so eith can see what's going on?
04:28:55 <alise> The BBC is excellent.
04:29:09 <alise> Al Jazeera too.
04:29:29 <pikhq> Yeah, Al Jazeera is pretty nice.
04:29:45 <pikhq> But of course Americans think it's some niche "TERRORIST" agency.
04:29:49 <pikhq> (no, really)
04:30:17 <alise> pikhq: The BBC has undoubtedly the best-designed news web pages.
04:31:57 <pikhq> Yes. Undoubtedly.
04:32:27 <pikhq> I don't think Americans realise that Al Jazeera comes out of Qatar. (one of the least shitty Middle Eastern nations)
04:33:29 <alise> They own Harrods, too.
04:33:38 <alise> (Well, the royal family does.)
04:36:31 <alise> Sgeo: o is so cheating
04:36:35 <alise> "Play the game for me."
04:36:48 <Sgeo> You still need to fight manually
04:36:57 <Sgeo> You still need to mark what places to avoid, sometimes
04:37:25 <Sgeo> The idea is that the game isn't wandering around exploring. It's fighting
04:37:31 <Sgeo> And there are some areas that o doesn't work
04:37:41 <pikhq> How is it that US reporting sucks *so bad*?
04:38:13 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Murdoch. Right.
04:38:14 <alise> pikhq: because your country sucks so bad
04:38:41 <alise> Sgeo: should i always try to go down like nethack?
04:38:51 <Sgeo> alise, once you clear the level, yes
04:38:56 <Sgeo> Try to read scrolls first, I think
04:38:59 <Sgeo> ID stuff, etc
04:39:12 <alise> I feel strangely unstable!
04:39:17 <Sgeo> alise, scroll of teleport
04:39:21 <Sgeo> You will teleport in a few turns
04:39:29 <alise> Sweet.
04:39:37 <Sgeo> Blink is instant
04:39:44 <alise> I can't eat that, can I?
04:39:52 <Sgeo> What?
04:40:02 <Sgeo> What color is the text naming it?
04:40:25 <Sgeo> If it's a corpse, white is ok, yellow is sometimes ok sometimes sickening, and green is poisonous
04:40:34 <Sgeo> You need to (c)hop corpses before you can eat them
04:40:53 <Sgeo> I am now fighting a pile of gold coins
04:40:55 <alise> green darn
04:40:57 <alise> what
04:41:17 <Sgeo> mimics don't show up as mimics just because you're fighting them
04:41:22 <alise> what's red
04:41:38 <Sgeo> what's red here?
04:41:42 <Sgeo> I can't see your screen
04:42:20 <alise> red %
04:42:21 <alise> orc corpse
04:42:36 <Sgeo> That's yellow
04:43:00 <Sgeo> Go to your inventory
04:43:06 <Sgeo> What color is the scroll of teleport?
04:43:14 <Sgeo> Erm, to your discoveries, \
04:43:43 <alise> That is not yellow, that is red
04:44:03 <Sgeo> "a chunk of orc flesh"
04:44:05 <Sgeo> That's yellow
04:45:25 <alise> Holy fucking
04:45:28 <Sgeo> hmm?'
04:45:38 <alise> Tons of enemies
04:45:46 <Sgeo> I can't see any of it
04:49:03 <Sgeo> God: Trog [*****.]
04:49:21 <alise> Sgeo: do corpses spoil?
04:49:24 <Sgeo> alise, yes
04:49:32 <Sgeo> You can't accidentally eat a spoiled corpse though
04:49:37 <Sgeo> It won't let you
04:49:50 <Sgeo> And there are some races that don't care about rotting meat
04:49:56 <Sgeo> And some races that can't eat meat
04:49:58 <alise> scroll of identify!
04:50:06 <Sgeo> And some races that can eat meat when not hungry (like Trolls)
04:50:20 <Sgeo> alise, one of the more common scrolls
04:52:58 <Sgeo> alise, M to memorize new spells
04:53:17 <Sgeo> m to adjust what gets experience points from practicing and what doesn't
04:53:29 <Sgeo> Eat corpses before permafood
04:53:46 <Sgeo> Don't eat kobold corpses (green, poisonous)
04:53:50 <Sgeo> BRB
04:57:52 <Sgeo> back
04:58:08 <Sgeo> You can't eat flesh unless you're hungry
04:58:20 <Sgeo> That's different for some races though
04:58:23 <Sgeo> Trolls like flesh
05:00:23 <alise> I died.
05:00:30 <alise> Slain by a worm (7 damage)
05:00:34 <alise> I assumed worms would be harmles.
05:00:37 <alise> *harmless.
05:01:07 <Sgeo> Now play a troll berserker
05:01:38 <Sgeo> I raved about how well I was doing, and they said that they're easy early-game, but mid-late game is a different story
05:03:17 <Sgeo> alise?
05:03:26 <alise> hi
05:05:50 <Sgeo> Not playing?
05:07:09 <alise> nope
05:11:07 * Sgeo dies
05:12:29 <Sgeo>
05:12:34 <Sgeo> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Sgeo/morgue-Sgeo-20100829-041037.txt
05:20:14 <alise> 5:19
05:20:16 <alise> bed soon
05:20:34 <Sgeo> Night
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05:33:06 <alise> goodnight
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08:39:47 <Sgeo> alise: noobrobin is recommended to be Mountain Dwarf Fighter or Mountain Dwarf Berserker
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10:28:58 <Phantom_Hoover> When Hackiki can run "nearly-arbitrary code", what does that actually mean?
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11:24:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, a guess about possible restrictions: no arbitrary connections to remote hosts allowed, limited time to run before being killed
11:25:00 <Vorpal> and running inside that chrooty thing that EgoBot uses
11:26:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, other pretty obvious limitations would include limited it to instructions allowed in ring 3 (user space on x86 CPUs)
11:28:46 <GreaseMonkey> and no, not ring -3, that's QUITE different
11:29:08 <GreaseMonkey> (i think it's running either in the northbridge or the southbridge or something)
11:29:16 <GreaseMonkey> (that's ring -3 apparently)
11:29:35 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, no one said -3
11:29:42 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I said 3
11:29:44 <Vorpal> +3
11:29:45 <GreaseMonkey> i was just making a comparison
11:29:49 <Vorpal> oh
11:30:09 <GreaseMonkey> if you're wondering, -1 is hypervisor and -2 is system management mode
11:33:21 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, people don't seem to refer to them as rings very often
11:33:32 <GreaseMonkey> hmmkay
11:33:50 <GreaseMonkey> hmm i wonder if someone could make a copperlist rootkit for the amiga
11:34:00 <Vorpal> eh? copperlist?
11:34:20 <GreaseMonkey> the copper is the coprocessor for the amiga
11:34:40 <Vorpal> so a microcode rootkit?
11:34:53 <GreaseMonkey> kinda
11:35:11 <GreaseMonkey> the copper only has 3 instructions: MOVE, SKIP, and WAIT
11:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "Ring" is a measure of how much you're allowed to screw up, yes?
11:35:26 <GreaseMonkey> (you can jump by doing a MOVE into COPPC1 or COPPC2 or something like that)
11:35:42 <GreaseMonkey> Phantom_Hoover: kinda, it's a privilege level, ring 0 is the "highest"
11:36:03 <olsner> didn't amd64 get rid of the rings and just have kernel and user-mode?
11:36:06 <GreaseMonkey> (actually no i don't think it's COPPC but COPJMP or something)
11:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise and I were discussing an OS in which all code ran in ring 0...
11:36:28 <Vorpal> olsner, amd64 can still run DOS, but yes in 64-bit mode more or less
11:37:00 <olsner> Vorpal: yeah, I meant "... while in long mode" :P
11:37:04 <GreaseMonkey> olsner: i think you might possibly be mistaking that for the limitations wrt mandatory paging & lack of GDT
11:37:13 <GreaseMonkey> hmm actually
11:37:37 <Vorpal> bbl
11:41:24 <olsner> hmm, how can a 32-bit kernel run 64-bit programs?
11:41:51 <GreaseMonkey> olsner: if it has a 64-bit component or something
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12:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> BeholdMyGlory, I'm beholding it. What's so special about it?
12:53:21 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: you're probably not beholding it right
12:53:44 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, I am fairly confident in my beholding skills.
13:01:25 <fizzie> Beholding is in the eye of the beautifier.
13:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone here a beautifier?
13:13:13 <fizzie> I think we only have uglifiers present.
13:13:41 <fizzie> (Are you planning to go stealing some eyes?)
13:15:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
13:15:10 * Phantom_Hoover looks for a phone book.
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16:10:40 <Sgeo> alise, FightClub is awesome
16:11:19 <Sgeo> (on Termcast)
16:11:24 <alise> Either you're referring to a book/film by a strangely CamelCased title, or you're referencing something of which I know not.
16:11:38 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ telnet termcast.org
16:11:39 <alise> bash: telnet: command not found
16:12:07 <alise> My 68k emulation has telnet and I don't. Tee hee.
16:14:22 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#fight
16:15:16 <alise> But then I have to go and be spammy in ##crawl and I bet the regulars don't use it often.
16:15:20 <alise> What bot is it?
16:15:28 <Sgeo> varmin
16:15:37 <Sgeo> I think
16:15:54 <Sgeo> We were having a party last night
16:16:10 <alise> fight 10 20-headed hydra v 10 giant spore
16:16:14 <alise> Sgeo: BEAT THAT
16:16:22 <Sgeo> Put it in?
16:16:29 <Sgeo> Or shall I do it?
16:16:31 <Vorpal> alise, so. any hypothetical activity?
16:16:32 <Sgeo> Ok
16:16:43 <alise> Vorpal: perhaps when i'm more awake, yes
16:16:55 <alise> Sgeo: "PM varmin your !fight requests to reduce channel spam."
16:17:21 <alise> haha
16:17:24 <Vorpal> alise, hm okay, I might be afk/busy quite a bit today, so don't expect fast replies
16:17:27 <alise> i think the hydras are winning here
16:17:42 <Sgeo> Except I don't see this fight moving anytime soon
16:17:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hypothetically, running "file" on the hypothetical .dmg version would print "VAX COFF executable", which I find... hypothetically unlikely.
16:18:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, mhm
16:18:09 <alise> <alise> !fight 10 the royal jelly v 100 giant spore
16:18:14 <alise> Sgeo: I don't even know the monsters
16:18:22 <alise> I'm just modifying stuff from the bot entry
16:18:50 <alise> Sgeo: can you cancel a fight?
16:18:53 <Sgeo> alise, yes
16:18:56 <alise> how?
16:19:00 <Sgeo> Repeat the request with cancel after it
16:19:16 <alise> there
16:19:16 <Sgeo> Or just !fight cancel, but I think that clears the queue
16:19:23 <alise> zoom
16:19:24 <alise> this is more fun
16:19:30 <alise> haha J vs J
16:19:44 <alise> well that was easy
16:21:52 <Sgeo> ALways put the test spawner after the v
16:21:59 <Sgeo> So that it can end
16:22:18 <alise> Sgeo: Sigmund, eh?
16:22:22 <alise> Also, what?
16:22:52 <Sgeo> Test spawners are (near) unkillable, and just spawn monsters
16:22:52 <alise> <alise> !fight 100 20-headed hydra vs 100 Sigmund
16:22:56 <alise> I LEARNED A NEW THING TODAY
16:23:05 <Sgeo> Sigmund's not the best
16:23:13 <Sgeo> There's one starting with A that is incredible
16:23:15 <alise> HAHA
16:23:42 <alise> that's better
16:23:47 <Sgeo> !fight 1 0-headed hydra v 100 Sigmund
16:23:51 <alise> wat
16:24:04 <Sgeo> 0-headed turns into 250-headed for some reason
16:24:09 <alise> sweet
16:24:25 <alise> Sgeo: does it have equivalents of Rodney, and the horsemen?
16:24:34 <alise> 100 -> 1
16:24:34 <alise> btw
16:24:35 <Sgeo> I guess Orb Guardian's kind of close
16:24:39 <alise> so this will be amusing
16:25:03 <alise> KAZAM
16:25:19 <alise> Sgeo: vs 10 test spawner
16:25:23 <alise> i double dog dare you :|
16:25:27 <Sgeo> Meh, no point
16:25:38 <alise> i think these guys totally have a chance
16:25:45 <alise> they're closing in
16:25:51 <Sgeo> alise, they can only stop the test spawner spawning
16:25:55 <Sgeo> They can't kill it
16:25:59 <alise> oh
16:26:02 <alise> how can you kill it?
16:26:08 <Sgeo> Although someone once killed test spawner with 99 Daevas
16:26:10 <Sgeo> I think
16:26:13 <alise> daeva?
16:26:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: More hypothetically, running it through dmg2img gives a file 548864000 bytes, but it's designed for florbing hfs+ filesystem images, I'm not completely certain it groks CDs. (The OS X hypothetically opens the hypothetical .dmg just fine, and shows contents too.)
16:26:36 <alise> Sgeo: wow, an orb guardian died
16:26:39 <alise> how? if it's so powerful
16:26:51 * Sgeo doesn't know
16:27:03 <alise> welp
16:27:06 <Sgeo> Ok, time to cancel fight, call it for orb guardians
16:27:06 <alise> let's see if they can kill it
16:27:14 <alise> but they're hurting it!
16:27:20 <alise> won't that mean it'll die eventually?
16:27:25 <Sgeo> They're not hurting it
16:27:32 <Sgeo> Read the messages, and see the green by the name
16:29:00 <alise> Sgeo: test spawner vs test spawner
16:29:09 <Sgeo> That won't ever end
16:29:16 <Sgeo> Until you cancel
16:29:23 <alise> but it will be hilarious
16:29:31 <Sgeo> add random_uniques
16:29:35 <Sgeo> So they'll be uniques
16:29:43 <alise> ?
16:29:55 <alise> sgqExamples: "!fight 20-headed hydra v 10 kobold ; scimitar ego:flaming"
16:30:00 <alise> i don't get that bit after the ;
16:30:02 <alise> is it to add items?
16:30:11 <Sgeo> Um... not really sure
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16:30:25 <Sgeo> There's a spells: thingy
16:30:36 <Sgeo> Which isn't documented, apparently
16:30:42 <alise> i added the orb of zot
16:31:00 <Sgeo> Add a wand of draining
16:31:20 <alise> what's that, just
16:31:22 <alise> ; wand of draining?
16:31:26 <Sgeo> I guess
16:32:09 <alise> <alise> !fight 30 Sigmund ; wand of draining vs 30 test spawner random_uniques
16:32:13 <alise> RIP Sigmund
16:32:19 <alise> Boris XD
16:32:51 <Sgeo> Sigmund likes dying
16:33:02 <Sgeo> Antaeus
16:33:05 <Sgeo> That's the strong unique
16:34:00 <alise> Holy.
16:34:39 <alise> Sgeo: These turns go slowly.
16:35:04 <Sgeo> You can speed them up. Please don't.
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16:35:19 <alise> Sgeo: Why not?
16:35:22 <alise> Hey you can do this locally sweet
16:35:24 <Sgeo> It's mean on the server
16:35:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hey, that's nice. The hypothetical Myst sort of works in OS X's Classic emulation. It even managed to set a 256-color display mode.
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16:35:27 <alise> crawl -arena "..."
16:35:34 <alise> To make them fight for three rounds you can do:
16:35:34 <alise> crawl -arena "t:3 kobold v goblin"
16:35:37 <alise> http://crawl-ref.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/crawl-ref/trunk/crawl-ref/docs/arena.txt
16:35:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do logicians insist upon using the subset symbol for implication?
16:35:42 <alise> You can also give each side more than one monster. For example:
16:35:45 <alise> awesoooome
16:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> It's so confusing!
16:35:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: usually they don't
16:36:02 <alise> does Antaeus have a band, Sgeo?
16:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> But why do they do it at all?
16:36:09 <Sgeo> I have no idea
16:36:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hysterical raisins
16:36:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn those raisins!
16:37:03 <alise> Sgeo: Will this fight ever end?
16:37:04 <Sgeo> Roxanne is a spellcasting statue
16:37:08 <Sgeo> alise, looks like it
16:37:14 <alise> Antaeus is winning, but still.
16:37:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: The dock on the right hand side is not exactly pretty, though: http://zem.fi/~fis/myst-start.png
16:37:34 <alise> <alise> !fight Margery band, Saint Roka band vs 5 Antaeus
16:37:36 <Phantom_Hoover> What *are* you talking about?
16:37:37 <alise> Worth a try.
16:37:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: telnet termcast.org, fight club
16:37:50 <alise> /msg varmin !fight foo vs bar to queue one up
16:37:58 <alise> along with the more powerful options explained in http://crawl-ref.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/crawl-ref/trunk/crawl-ref/docs/arena.txt
16:38:07 <Sgeo> spell: isn't explained there
16:38:16 <Sgeo> One common thing seems to be to give statues spells
16:38:22 <alise> Sgeo: There's multiples arenas!!
16:38:25 <alise> http://crawl-ref.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/crawl-ref/trunk/crawl-ref/source/dat/arena.des
16:38:31 <Sgeo> alise, yeah, mostly useless
16:38:39 <Sgeo> Antaeus wins!
16:38:42 <alise> arena_corridor looks fun
16:38:48 <alise> Uh, Antaeus won that one, right?
16:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> It said 'e died a while ago...
16:39:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ?
16:39:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Antaeus in the last fight.
16:39:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, there were several Antaeus's
16:39:54 <alise> yeah
16:39:55 <alise> tons of them
16:40:05 <alise> i gave the other guys a test spawner
16:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, right.
16:40:08 <alise> since they're at such a disadvantage
16:40:12 <Phantom_Hoover> They're things.
16:40:44 <alise> Sgeo: Why are so many of them green-backgrounded?
16:41:00 <Sgeo> alise, because I think in terms of the code, they're allies (roughly similar to NetHack pets)
16:41:13 <Sgeo> You see how it says Your?
16:41:32 <alise> ah
16:42:04 <alise> Sgeo: I read that as "I think in terms of the code; because of this, ..."
16:42:17 <alise> lol
16:42:21 <alise> antaeus v antaeus
16:42:37 <alise> antaeus are fucked
16:43:08 <Sgeo> "Don't you feel lonely without a god?"
16:43:14 <alise> lol
16:43:22 * Phantom_Hoover -> things
16:43:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Bloody non-compose-keyed Mac keyboard...
16:43:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:43:46 <Sgeo> Orb Guardians don't have a chance
16:43:57 <alise> Why do they guard the Orb, then?
16:44:12 <Sgeo> According to LearnDB, they're relatively harmless
16:44:19 <Sgeo> I think because you try to avoid fighting them
16:44:49 <alise> what's the most powerful fighting item?
16:44:59 <Sgeo> I have no idea
16:45:07 <Sgeo> You think I'm a Crawl expert? :D
16:45:22 <alise> totally
16:45:26 <alise> that was quick
16:45:54 <alise> DUM DUM DUM DUM
16:45:56 <alise> DUM DUM DUM DUM
16:46:15 <alise> lol
16:46:18 <Sgeo> *gasp*
16:46:29 <alise> Lesson learned: to fight Antaeus, tame a load of 0-headed hydrae.
16:47:17 <alise> <Antaeus> wtf man.
16:47:37 <alise> lol
16:47:38 <alise> suicide
16:47:47 <alise> well that was easy
16:47:56 <alise> this may take a while
16:49:27 <alise> <Antaeus> What do you expect me to do here?
16:49:55 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: The dock on the right hand side is not exactly pretty, though: http://zem.fi/~fis/myst-start.png <-- heh
16:50:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc myst *will* run under more than 256 colours
16:51:13 <fizzie> Yes, there's a "Continue" button in the box where it asks whether you want to set it to 256 colours.
16:51:15 <alise> Sgeo: IT'S THE FINAL COUNTDOOWN
16:51:22 <fizzie> It seems to work better in BasiliskII, though.
16:51:44 <alise> Sgeo: <alise> !fight 40 random vs 40 random random_uniques cycle_random miscasts
16:51:57 <alise> These guys are miscasting every fuckin' turn.
16:52:52 <alise> the royal jelly (rotting)
16:53:26 <alise> Sgeo: What's the weakest monster in the game, do you know?
16:54:46 <alise> Sgeo: I can't tell who's winning here.
16:59:16 <alise> Sgeo: Who won????
17:00:07 <alise> <Antaeus> MMF--MFFFF!!!
17:00:57 <alise> lol invisible
17:01:12 <Sgeo> alise, sorry, was AFK
17:01:22 <alise> Sgeo: I did !fight 40 random vs 40 random random_uniques cycle_random miscasts
17:01:24 <alise> It was epic.
17:01:24 <Sgeo> cacodemon?
17:01:26 <alise> I have no idea who won.
17:01:36 <alise> Yeah, cacodemon. I saw it in the previous fight.
17:01:42 <alise> So I decided, why not pit Antaeus against 99 of them.
17:01:42 -!- tombom_ has joined.
17:01:59 <Sgeo> I'm gonna brush my teeth quickly
17:02:14 <Sgeo> Spriggans ought to be weak
17:02:16 <Sgeo> i thinl
17:02:21 <Sgeo> Some of the player races
17:03:04 <Sgeo> (spriggan is a player race)
17:03:39 <Sgeo> Antaeus is losing
17:03:50 <alise> But he has kiled an awful lot of them.
17:03:55 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:04:06 <alise> Gah, doesn't he have a way to resore his health?
17:04:08 <alise> *restore
17:04:27 <alise> Also, when the fuck do you fight Antaeus in the game? He's nearly invincible!
17:04:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:04:59 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#antaeus
17:05:02 <alise> He killed 30. RIP Antaeus.
17:05:12 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#cocytus
17:05:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:05:56 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:06:01 <alise> Sgeo: what's the wand antaeus is using to shoot all-powerful flames of icy death?
17:06:04 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:06:04 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:06:06 -!- HackEgo has joined.
17:06:07 -!- EgoBot has joined.
17:06:11 <Sgeo> alise, I have no idea
17:06:25 <Gregor> Looka the fancy new hosts for HackEgo and EgoBot! :)
17:06:39 <alise> So sweet.
17:06:42 <Gregor> HostNAMES that is.
17:07:05 <alise> Sgeo: Spriggan seems tough enough to me.
17:07:18 <Sgeo> hmm, I may be mistaken
17:07:29 <alise> *Spriggans seem
17:07:37 <Sgeo> "Spriggans move two thirds faster than most and have seven magic resistance per level (not three), but can't wear most armour and have the lowest natural HP of any race. "
17:07:48 <alise> It's written in C++? Ew.
17:07:51 <Sgeo> (note: It probably means player races)
17:07:52 <Sgeo> Hmm?
17:07:58 <alise> DCSS.
17:08:07 <alise> giant newt
17:08:07 <alise> The weakest monster in the game. If you're sufficiently challenged by its presence to consult the bot, you're doing it wrong.
17:08:10 <alise> Beware! It swims!
17:08:10 <alise> Food with legs
17:08:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Can it kill you like the NH newts?
17:09:09 <alise> om nom nom nom nom
17:09:18 <alise> giant newts engulf saint roka nom nom
17:09:30 <alise> we cannot lose om nom nom nom
17:10:12 <Sgeo> Obviously, I'm faking all the FightClub stuff just to get alise into Crawl
17:10:21 <alise> faking how :P
17:10:32 <Sgeo> Set up termcast, manual drawing... thing
17:10:38 <Sgeo> Added fake learndb entries
17:10:40 <alise> crawl's keep-at-center movement still gives me headaches, sorry
17:12:12 <Sgeo> alise, according to ##crawl, that can be changed
17:12:17 <Sgeo> Although it's more annoying
17:12:22 <Sgeo> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/docs/options_guide.txt
17:12:55 <Sgeo> view_lock stuff apparently
17:13:10 <Sgeo> view_lock=false
17:13:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it allow you to have maps larger than the terminal size?
17:13:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: all of them are
17:13:22 <alise> more or less
17:13:44 <Phantom_Hoover> That's actually quite nice...
17:13:56 <alise> THEY'RE WINNING
17:14:14 <alise> giant spiked demon blade
17:14:14 <alise> 57 base damage, 21 delay
17:14:17 <alise> totally is a real item
17:14:17 <Sgeo> They're saying it's fairly nice with a huge terminal
17:15:57 <Sgeo> !fight 99 Daeva v test spawner
17:16:30 <alise> is daeva really powerful or sth
17:16:48 <Sgeo> Supposedly, 99 Daeva killed test spawner
17:17:25 <alise> !fight 99 Daeva, 40 Antaeus v test spawner
17:17:33 <alise> will they all fit?
17:17:34 <alise> i wonder
17:18:36 <Sgeo> Hey, a Daeva died
17:18:52 <alise> indeed
17:19:26 <Sgeo> Hmm
17:19:52 <alise> Hum de dum.
17:19:58 <alise> This could take a while.
17:19:59 <Sgeo> <eith> it will take *ages*
17:20:55 <Sgeo> Do you want to wait, or cancel this fight?
17:21:20 <alise> Cancel, methinks. Unless it goes purple soon.
17:21:46 <alise> Why is some of the floor yellow?
17:21:53 <Sgeo> Might be a halo thing
17:22:14 <Sgeo> Cancelled
17:22:22 <alise> Now for the ultimate showdown.
17:22:25 <alise> Okay, wow, Antaeus wins.
17:22:38 <alise> Wouldn't 99 Antaeus v test spawner have a better chance?
17:23:19 <Sgeo> I _think_ that Daeva has an attack that actually scratches test spawner, and ANtaeus doesn't
17:23:27 <Sgeo> test spawner has all resistences
17:24:57 <alise> Sgeo: Easy.
17:25:29 <alise> Antaeus is wandering XD
17:25:51 <Sgeo> Maybe Antaus v something that resists cold
17:25:58 <alise> *Antaeus
17:26:05 -!- chickenzilla has left (?).
17:26:06 <Sgeo> Hey, ANtaeus was scratched
17:26:09 <alise> <Antaeus> See ya guys.
17:26:18 <alise> What are the )s?
17:26:22 <alise> Armour?
17:26:26 <Sgeo> Weapons, I think
17:26:54 <alise> Dear god. I have created a monster.
17:27:21 <alise> It's going to keep going until the monsters summoned damage a test spawner enough to destroy it, and so on.
17:27:37 -!- Vegabondmx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:27:37 <alise> Did a test spawner just get destroyed? Wow.
17:27:55 <Sgeo> ..no?
17:28:01 <alise> The orange one?
17:28:02 <alise> Maybe not.
17:28:25 <Sgeo> You can't fire me, I quit!
17:28:26 <Sgeo> ?
17:28:31 <alise> ?
17:28:37 <Sgeo> One of the messages
17:28:38 -!- Vegabondmx has joined.
17:28:49 <alise> I think the monsters are disappearing due to lack of space.
17:28:52 <alise> And that's a message for it.
17:29:58 <Sgeo> !fight Roxanne v Roxanne arena:small
17:30:31 <Sgeo> Should I rerequest?
17:30:44 <alise> lol
17:30:46 <alise> look at that
17:31:02 <alise> this will never do a thing XDD
17:31:26 <alise> Sgeo: This is, uh...
17:31:32 <Sgeo> Lemme cancel
17:31:50 <Sgeo> Well, the speech is entertaining
17:32:11 <alise> ZOOOOM
17:32:49 <alise> Sgeo: delay:0 is sweet
17:33:00 <Sgeo> It's mean to the server
17:33:09 <alise> Doesn't matter for short matches.
17:35:01 <alise> Sgeo: delay:0 becomes delay:15, it seems
17:36:32 <fizzie> In other emulationary news, (for no particular reason) tried OpenBSD 4.7 on "qemu-system-sparc -M SS5", and it... didn't quite work: http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-1.png → http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-2.png → http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-3.png; however. the OpenBSD 3.5 that I think is in the real SS5 in the basement did a lot better: http://zem.fi/~fis/sparc-4.png
17:37:36 <Sgeo> I can't really watch the fights when they're this fast
17:37:56 <alise> It's funny, though.
17:38:16 <Sgeo> How about multi-rounding a more even thing?
17:38:18 * Sgeo has an idea
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17:38:52 <alise> fizzie: how come -1 gets more blurry as you go rightewards?
17:39:25 <alise> Sgeo: NOW the server hates me.
17:39:49 <alise> It's like the end of Wargames.
17:39:53 <alise> A strange game...
17:40:53 <fizzie> alise: They're taken from different runs. For some reason qemu doesn't open the window exactly at 1024x768, but instead a bit less than, and my manual resizes weren't very accurate. (It scales the 1024x768 framebuffer to the window size.)
17:41:07 <alise> *rightwards
17:41:09 <alise> fizzie: No, I mean, in just -1
17:41:14 <alise> But ah, I see.
17:41:18 <fizzie> Oh, I think the scaling is a bit messy.
17:41:26 <Sgeo> How about slow-mo?
17:41:31 <alise> Sgeo: no :P
17:41:32 <alise> brb
17:41:52 <Sgeo> !fight Antaeus v giant newt delay:1000
17:45:34 <Sgeo> Hey, sigmund managed to kill a newt!
17:49:30 <Sgeo> BRB
18:00:20 <Sgeo> alise, wanna watch my ghost kill someone?
18:04:00 -!- Vegabondmx_ has joined.
18:04:35 -!- Vegabondmx has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:04:35 -!- Vegabondmx_ has changed nick to Vegabondmx.
18:04:45 <Sgeo> alise, or watch someone deliberately destroy the Orb of Zot?
18:07:53 <Sgeo> Bleh, just watched one
18:08:03 <Sgeo> If you want, PM Sequell with !lm * type=orb.destroy 1 -tv
18:08:05 <Sgeo> And watch FooTV
18:13:34 <Sgeo> destroyed the Orb of (r:Phantom_Hoover)
18:13:37 <fizzie> "destroyed the Orb of (r:Phantom_Hoover)" -- what's the Orb of Phantom_Hoover do?
18:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Hoovers things, obviously.
18:14:32 <Sgeo> There are 6 orb destructions that Sequell knows about
18:14:50 <Sgeo> list them with s=name instead of 1, and play a different one by replacing the number
18:15:00 <Sgeo> (oh, and no -tv with the listing)
18:15:54 <Sgeo> Who requested that?
18:16:02 * Phantom_Hoover whistles innocently
18:17:08 <Sgeo> !lm * s=type
18:17:13 <Sgeo> To list types of milestones
18:17:19 <Sgeo> At least, those that have been achieved
18:17:28 <Sgeo> Really?
18:17:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Oops...
18:18:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I at least saw Sgeo die this time.
18:19:42 <Sgeo> What's this?
18:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Crashes!
18:20:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
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18:25:08 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:25:09 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
18:26:14 * Sgeo has to go soon
18:34:52 <Sgeo> Huh
18:35:00 <Sgeo> 3 rounds, 10 orc v troll, troll wins
18:35:09 <Sgeo> Give the orcs an orc priest, and orcs win
18:35:31 <Sgeo> Even if the priest is killed fairly quickly
18:36:55 <Sgeo> hmm, Ice Fiend
18:37:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, did you use appropriate experimental practicE?
18:37:48 <Phantom_Hoover> s/E/e/
18:38:01 <Sgeo> Meh
18:40:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, EVIL!
18:40:37 <Phantom_Hoover> You're a terrible person!
18:40:44 <Sgeo> hmm?
18:40:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you repeat the experiments a good number of times?
18:41:07 <Sgeo> No
18:41:16 <Phantom_Hoover> DISGUSTING
18:46:48 <Sgeo> 6 - 4 t:10 10 orc v troll delay:15 {Sgeo}
18:47:16 <Sgeo> 10 - 0 t:10 10 orc, orc priest v troll delay:15 {Sgeo}
18:48:14 <Sgeo> 6 - 4 t:10 9 orc, orc priest v troll delay:15 {Sgeo}
18:57:55 <coppro> new idea for NetHack hallucinatory monster: patent troll
18:59:46 <alise> coppro: :D
19:00:27 <Sgeo> Antaeus was injured!
19:00:28 <alise> <Sgeo> Give the orcs an orc priest, and orcs win
19:00:28 <alise> <Sgeo> Even if the priest is killed fairly quickly
19:00:32 <alise> takes the damage for them
19:01:02 <Sgeo> Actually, my experiments, such as they are, seem to show that it's number of orcs
19:01:19 <Sgeo> 11 orcs total do far better than 10 orcs total
19:01:24 <Sgeo> Wow, orc priests own Antaeus
19:01:27 <alise> <Sgeo> If you want, PM Sequell with !lm * type=orb.destroy 1 -tv ;; what else can you do with this
19:02:24 <alise> Sgeo: BEHOLD
19:02:27 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
19:02:41 <Sgeo> Sorry, comp acting up
19:02:57 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Client Quit).
19:03:26 <Sgeo> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/bots lastgame and lastgame examples
19:03:34 <Sgeo> Or http://crawl.develz.org/learndb/index.html#lastgame
19:03:58 <Sgeo> What is this?
19:04:03 <Sgeo> Ah
19:04:09 <alise> <Sequell> 1. qwqw, XL17 SpEn, T:20797 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
19:04:15 <alise> how long do i have to wait for him to destroy it? :P
19:04:19 <Sgeo> alise, you missed it
19:04:24 <Sgeo> Sorry
19:04:24 <alise> darn
19:04:27 <alise> was it at the start or something
19:04:39 <alise> Sgeo: no i mean
19:04:41 <alise> i ran your !lm command
19:04:45 <alise> what is the yellow #?
19:04:47 <alise> in fightclub right now
19:04:56 <alise> also, antaeus is holding up damn well here :P
19:04:56 <Sgeo> I have no idea
19:04:59 <Sgeo> Maybe a fire
19:05:05 <Sgeo> alise, run it again, watch FooTV
19:05:07 <alise> isn't that red #? i'd guess
19:05:09 <alise> Sgeo: i did
19:05:13 <alise> i saw no orb being destroyed
19:05:47 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
19:06:00 <Sgeo> Just now
19:06:07 <alise> That was ... boring.
19:07:39 <alise> how does one start crawl-tiles in a window?
19:07:42 <alise> I want HI-RES arena
19:08:41 <Sgeo> I don't know, I've only ever played Crawl online
19:09:09 <alise> Sgeo: 99 Daevas v test spawner delay:0 running locally
19:09:12 <Sgeo> alise, oh, Ice Fiends do well against Antaeus
19:09:14 <alise> not ... not much is happening
19:09:35 <alise> Yay, it lost some health.
19:09:35 <Sgeo> Around 10 will sometimes kill em
19:09:36 <alise> Orange now.
19:09:54 <alise> Sgeo: it's much more fun locally, since delay:0 is actually 0
19:10:17 <alise> Still orange...
19:10:22 <alise> This thing is fucking resilient! Wow!
19:10:29 <Sgeo> The test spawner?
19:10:37 <alise> Purple.
19:10:38 <alise> Sgeo: Yes.
19:10:44 <alise> Red!
19:10:55 <alise> It'll die in the next twenty minutes!
19:10:58 <Sgeo> lol
19:11:14 <alise> Still going...
19:11:20 <alise> Woo, it died and I didn't even see it.
19:11:23 <alise> How much HP does it have, exactly?
19:11:34 <Sgeo> BRB
19:11:47 <alise> 96 Antaeus v 99 test spawners...
19:12:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:14:49 -!- augur has joined.
19:16:35 <alise> Sgeo:
19:16:37 <alise> 1 - 0 99 the Lernaean hydra miscasts delay:15 v 99 Antaeus {alise}
19:16:37 <alise> 1 - 0 40 Antaeus v 99 the Lernaean hydra miscasts delay:15 {alise}
19:16:40 <alise> Explain THAT.
19:18:08 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:21:13 -!- yorick has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:23:44 <Sgeo> lol
19:24:06 <Sgeo> alise, there's probably a way to watch people killing Antaeus?
19:24:21 <alise> i guess
19:24:58 <Sgeo> !lm * uniq=Antaeus
19:25:15 <Sgeo> Put a -tv after that and you're watching the last person to kill ANtaeus
19:25:20 <alise> Sgeo: Now I'm pitting 99 Antaeuses against a test spawner; de;ay:0.
19:25:24 <Sgeo> Either that, or the last of Antaeus's victims, not sure
19:25:26 <alise> *delay:0.
19:25:44 <alise> Uh, actually, I think they're doing no damage at all.
19:25:59 <Sgeo> No, last person to kill Antaeus
19:26:01 <Sgeo> Wanna watch?
19:26:07 <Sgeo> On FooTV
19:26:14 <alise> Doing so now.
19:27:36 -!- yorick has joined.
19:27:56 -!- yorick has quit (Changing host).
19:27:56 -!- yorick has joined.
19:28:19 <Sgeo> Bye
19:28:25 <alise> Bye.
19:30:52 <SgeoN1> On my phone now
19:31:45 -!- SgeoN2 has joined.
19:32:01 <alise> Sgeo: you can have more than 99 of an enemy
19:32:06 <alise> 99 test spawners, 99 test spawners works
19:32:27 <SgeoN2> What happens if you put 100.?
19:32:33 <alise> treats it as 1
19:33:16 * SgeoN2 wonders how Sigmund fares against orcs
19:33:42 <SgeoN2> For how weak Sigmund seems in the arena, he's a common player killed
19:33:44 <SgeoN2> Killer
19:33:57 <alise> SgeoN2: You see a puff of smoke. x19963
19:34:00 <alise> gets >30000 sometimes
19:34:04 <alise> crawl -arena 'Daeva v 99 test spawner, 99 test spawner, 26 test spawner delay:0'
19:34:10 <alise> the longest game!
19:34:58 <SgeoN2> One Daeva?
19:35:02 <SgeoN2> The Daeva's winning?
19:35:42 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:35:47 <alise> The Daeva is, uh, sitting around hitting things wildly.
19:35:50 <alise> I haven't the patience.
19:36:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> My god, Andrew Schlafly doesn't believe in complex numbers.
19:38:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: XD
19:38:06 <alise> SgeoN2: crawl -arena '99 giant newt, 99 giant newt, 26 giant newt v test spawner delay:0'
19:38:12 <alise> GO TEAM l!
19:38:28 <alise> They're sure hissing menacingly a lot.
19:38:32 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it gets better. He's a former electrical engineer.
19:38:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So how did he...
19:38:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Dunno.
19:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Mother bribing the university, perhaps?
19:40:09 <alise> SgeoN2: The giant newts are really determined.
19:40:14 <alise> Does hissing menacingly actually do any damage?
19:40:17 <alise> Just curious.
19:40:34 <SgeoN2> Ill be able to talk soon
19:41:17 <madbrain2> hmmm, I need to design a nice and simple instruction set
19:41:51 <alise> madbrain2: forth :P
19:42:18 <madbrain2> haha :D
19:42:30 <alise> no seriously forth cpus are sweet
19:43:46 <madbrain2> but are they efficient for irl implementations? :D
19:44:02 <madbrain2> especially on systems without cache?
19:44:02 <alise> sure
19:44:05 <alise> forth cpus are commercial products
19:44:10 <SgeoN2> Ok, I can participate in stuff now
19:44:12 <alise> from various companies
19:44:16 <alise> hobbyists have made a few
19:44:20 <alise> and of course chuck moore can't stop making them
19:44:31 <alise> madbrain2: i don't think you'd need cache
19:44:32 <SgeoN2> I should learn Forth
19:45:06 <alise> ha, from chuck moore's latest blog post:
19:45:10 <alise> "Also, I've become a teetotaler. After 40 years of favoring bourbon, I've concluded the upside doesn't compensate the downside. Among many considerations: life is simpler; I'll save money; social occassions are more difficult. So now it's ginger ale of an evening."
19:45:21 <alise> but how will we get blog posts that seem almost slurred???
19:45:25 <alise> shame on you!
19:46:19 <alise> SgeoN2: crawl -arena '99 giant newt, 99 giant newt, 25 giant newt, Daeva v test spawner delay:0'
19:46:24 <alise> run until daeva is next to test spawner
19:46:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:46:30 <alise> (may take many tries)
19:46:37 <alise> there
19:46:43 <SgeoN2> Alise, ping me whenbyou request fightclub fights
19:46:53 <alise> SgeoN2: whenbyou
19:47:05 <alise> i'm doing it locally now, delay:0 is sweet
19:47:25 <SgeoN2> Autocorrent isn't.good at detecting whenbi type something other than space
19:47:52 <alise> "The GA4 is the smallest chip we have created: A chip with Four F18B computers in an 8-pin package (2x2mm) or 12 pins (3x3mm). The chip measures <1 sq mm in a 180 nm process." --Green Arrays
19:47:55 <alise> http://greenarraychips.com/home/images/ga4.jpg
19:47:56 <SgeoN2> You could termcast it...
19:48:03 <alise> that little thing in the top-right is a chip
19:48:11 <alise> SgeoN2: just run it locally yourself :P
19:48:33 <SgeoN2> Not willing to download Crawl
19:48:33 <alise> uh, Daeva /can/ do the smiting stuff diagonally, right?
19:48:37 <alise> SgeoN2: o_O why not?
19:48:42 <alise> you play the damn thing
19:48:56 <SgeoN2> Laziness, ease of just playing online most of the time
19:50:29 <alise> Roguelikes: Because suicide is too easy.
19:50:30 <SgeoN2> Also, I'm on a phone right now. Far easier to watch on termcast than attempting to get Crawl working on here
19:52:51 <madbrain2> hmm
19:52:57 <alise> SgeoN2: I think I'm going to write a Roguelike.
19:53:19 <madbrain2> stack based cpu designs seem like they use lots of instructions to do stuff no&
19:53:20 <madbrain2> ?
19:53:30 <SgeoN2> I may have added too much soap
19:53:31 <alise> madbrain2: eh; Forth has no real "instructions"
19:53:36 <alise> SgeoN2: what
19:53:45 <alise> madbrain2: it won't be slow though
19:53:53 <alise> madbrain2: since while it may call a few words it's very very close to the metal
19:54:06 <alise> like, a while loop in forth executes 10x simpler than a while loop in a regular language of the same expressiveness
19:54:58 <SgeoN2> I'm at the Laundromat, the washer at my house is broken
19:55:48 <alise> http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CKqn0JrmocOuKRDYBRhPMgijsGgA5g0TgA
19:56:53 <SgeoN2> Do they provide services for characters in roguelikes?
19:56:59 <alise> Hopefully!
19:57:52 <coppro> hey, that's a nice-looking ! you got there
19:58:18 * alise is playing Rogue
19:58:36 <alise> "You don't hit the bat"
19:58:41 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:59:37 <madbrain2> well, what I mean is, take something like a texture mapping algo
19:59:47 -!- nooga has joined.
20:00:09 <madbrain2> you have to store multiple counter values into registers, increment them each step, etc
20:00:27 <madbrain2> plus do bit manipualtion for texture coords
20:00:44 <alise> I am now battling an emu.
20:00:47 <alise> madbrain2: registers?
20:00:50 <alise> there are no registers in a stack machine
20:01:18 <madbrain2> where do they store loop counters then:D
20:01:25 <alise> >.<
20:01:28 <alise> do you know Forth?
20:01:40 <alise> it's kind of hard to imagine how a forth machine works without knowing forth
20:01:44 <SgeoN2> I don't, yet
20:02:06 <madbrain2> well, it reads variables to and from the stack no?
20:02:14 <alise> madbrain2: well uh
20:02:14 <coppro> this is why India will overtake North American & Europe: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/10/08/29/1710203/What-IT-Stuff-Should-We-Teach-Ninth-Graders
20:02:21 <alise> that's if you're programming with a variable-based paradigm
20:02:25 <alise> which would be retarded on a stack machine
20:02:29 <alise> madbrain2: i suggest you learn forth, the language
20:02:34 <madbrain2> like, how would you translate n += dn;
20:02:36 <alise> only then you can you understand how a stack machine can be efficient
20:02:37 <alise> you don't
20:02:39 <alise> because you don't do that
20:02:42 <alise> i mean you can theoretically
20:02:44 <alise> but it'd be stupid
20:02:51 <alise> (and you'd probably just use a memory location for that case)
20:03:13 <madbrain2> ok how do you handle a loop with counters being incremented on each step?
20:03:22 <alise> ff
20:03:36 <alise> it's an almost impossible question to answer without you having any knowledge of this stuff since forth is such a different mindset
20:03:41 <alise> seriously, just learn forth :P
20:04:41 <alise> __________
20:04:41 <alise> / \
20:04:41 <alise> / REST \
20:04:41 <alise> / IN \
20:04:41 <alise> / PEACE \
20:04:42 <alise> / \
20:04:44 <alise> | ehird |
20:04:46 <alise> | 63 Au |
20:04:48 <alise> | killed by a |
20:04:50 <alise> | snake |
20:04:52 <alise> | 2010 |
20:04:54 <alise> *| * * * | *
20:04:56 <alise> ________)/\\_//(\/(/\)/\//\/|_)_______
20:04:58 <alise> fuck yeah rogue
20:05:50 <madbrain2> that's why I like mario
20:06:14 <alise> why, you die a lot?
20:06:23 <madbrain2> no, you don't :D
20:06:31 <madbrain2> or more like just enough
20:06:39 <alise> well mario is also a lot easier and more braindead to play than roguelikes :)
20:06:44 <alise> rogue itself is pretty boring though gotta admit
20:06:46 <alise> no fun stuff
20:07:22 <SgeoN2> Alise, set some viewport options and play Crawl?
20:07:32 <SgeoN2> >…>
20:07:33 <alise> SgeoN2: but rogue is historical!
20:07:49 <cheater00> alise, this poem is from me to you: http://hackedirl.com/2010/08/16/culture-jamming-win-nerd-love/
20:07:55 <alise> ATTACK OF THE KILLER EMUS
20:08:16 <alise> cheater00: oh come on
20:08:18 <alise> that's from like
20:08:19 <alise> well
20:08:23 <alise> as soon as all your base came out
20:08:32 <SgeoN2> Gryph was kidnapped by an emu
20:08:39 <cheater00> i thought you would appreciate the romanticism
20:08:47 <cheater00> it has nothing to do with novelty
20:09:01 <alise> apparently, as n decreases, insanity of cheatern increases
20:09:09 <cheater00> i just thought, you know, this image perfectly described my feeling towards u
20:09:23 <alise> i think cheater00 is either drunk or ... drunk
20:09:46 <cheater00> i never drink
20:09:48 <SgeoN2> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Emu
20:09:50 <cheater00> like
20:09:51 <cheater00> ever
20:09:53 <cheater00> in fact
20:10:09 <cheater00> i was at a birthday last friday and i bought the people a litre of vodka at the bar
20:10:16 <cheater00> with a case of red bull
20:10:20 <cheater00> and i didn't drink any of it
20:10:30 <alise> You don't hit the ice monster (or something)
20:10:31 <alise> __________
20:10:32 <alise> / \
20:10:32 <alise> / REST \
20:10:32 <alise> / IN \
20:10:32 <alise> / PEACE \
20:10:33 <alise> / \
20:10:35 <alise> | ehird |
20:10:37 <alise> | 147 Au |
20:10:39 <alise> | killed by |
20:10:41 <alise> | hypothermia |
20:10:43 <alise> | 2010 |
20:10:45 <alise> *| * * * | *
20:10:47 <alise> ________)/\\_//(\/(/\)/\//\/|_)_______
20:10:49 <alise> ONE HIT
20:10:51 <alise> ONE HIT and I died
20:10:53 <alise> NOTE TO SELF: When playing Rogue, NEVER attack I.
20:10:54 <cheater00> yep
20:10:55 <SgeoN2> Are there any Rogue servers?
20:11:07 <cheater00> SgeoN2: alise has one
20:11:10 <cheater00> well
20:11:18 <cheater00> actually nethack is the 'server' one innit
20:11:21 <madbrain2> they're asshole games
20:11:24 <cheater00> rogue doesn't have any networkability
20:11:26 <cheater00> does it
20:11:31 <alise> cheater00: nor does nethack
20:11:33 <alise> it's built on top
20:11:34 <alise> madbrain2: not really, just newbie-asshole games
20:11:41 <cheater00> SURE IT DOES
20:11:42 <alise> they're very rewarding if you can get past the first few levels
20:11:43 <cheater00> hence the NET
20:11:53 <cheater00> you can connect to the server and leave your bones behind
20:11:59 <cheater00> HENCE interacting with other players
20:12:01 <alise> cheater00: that's because it's a version of Hack maintained by people over the internet
20:12:03 <cheater00> haha, alise loses, lolol
20:12:05 <alise> also, leaving bones is a machine-local thing
20:12:13 <SgeoN2> The Net refers to the deb's working together on the Internet, I think
20:12:17 <alise> *devs
20:12:19 <cheater00> stfu, girls know nothing about computer games
20:12:21 <alise> nethack servers are basically termcasts with keyboard input
20:12:26 <cheater00> yes
20:12:39 <SgeoN2> No, not debian packages
20:13:00 <madbrain2> well, come on
20:13:04 <alise> SgeoN2: you know what? i'm gonna make a rogue server
20:13:05 <alise> AND NOBODY CAN STOP ME
20:13:07 <alise> MWAHAHAHAHA
20:13:15 <madbrain2> they give you potions and shit
20:13:17 <alise> i wanna see if i can get the dos version's graphics though
20:13:24 <madbrain2> all of which are going to kill you at random
20:13:24 <cheater00> you want a nethack server
20:13:28 <cheater00> for bones
20:13:29 <alise> madbrain2: which you don't quaff unless either desperate or identified
20:13:35 <alise> that's called caution
20:13:44 <alise> cheater00: there's a program to download bones without using a server
20:13:44 <madbrain2> that's the worst cocktease
20:13:55 <cheater00> alise: i know
20:13:55 * SgeoN2 hits madbrain2 with a large trout
20:14:07 <alise> "To get started you really only need to know two commands. The command
20:14:08 <alise> ? will give you a list of the available commands and the command /
20:14:08 <alise> will identify the things you see on the screen."
20:14:18 <madbrain2> plus they have crazy identification techniques involving stacking
20:14:18 <SgeoN2> Crawl is friendlier
20:14:26 <alise> BUGS
20:14:26 <alise> Probably infinite (although countably infinite). However, that Ice
20:14:26 <alise> Monsters sometimes transfix you permanently is not a bug. It's a fea-
20:14:26 <alise> ture.
20:14:40 <alise> okay, crazy plan: rogue | sed for ibm graphics
20:14:52 <alise> no colour though, i'm not that crazy
20:14:58 <SgeoN2> Unicode graphics!!!
20:15:38 <cheater00> alise: um, rogue doesn't have bones levels
20:15:52 <alise> cheater00: of course not
20:16:07 <cheater00> alise: so your answer was wacko
20:16:14 <alise> cheater00: not really
20:16:17 <alise> you can have online servers without bones
20:16:52 <cheater00> i know
20:16:56 <cheater00> but i said
20:16:57 <madbrain2> well, a game that you need a walkthrough to even just play...
20:17:00 <cheater00> <cheater00> you want a nethack server
20:17:00 <cheater00> <cheater00> for bones
20:17:03 <cheater00> which means
20:17:09 <cheater00> "you want a nethack server, for bones"
20:17:13 <alise> madbrain2: you don't with crawl et al
20:17:18 <alise> madbrain2: only nethack is that perverse
20:17:21 <alise> even then you don't need a walkthrough
20:17:24 <SgeoN2> You don't need a walkthrough to play Crawl
20:17:25 <alise> just lots of spoilers
20:19:57 <cheater00> or lots of deaths. lol!
20:20:46 <SgeoN2> Supposedly, an unspoiled person won NetHacl recently
20:23:04 <alise> SgeoN2: Fun idea: The smiley face character turns sad if you're low on HP.
20:25:35 <alise> SgeoN2: Well, I have a smiley face.
20:26:00 <SgeoN2> Sounds interesting
20:26:45 <cheater00> lol
20:26:46 <cheater00> nice
20:26:52 <cheater00> alise: what sort of music do u listen 2
20:26:52 <cheater00> ?
20:27:13 <alise> i refuse to talk to anyone who says "u" or "2"
20:27:36 <cheater00> i knew you would be like that
20:27:44 <cheater00> you're just using this as an excuse, though
20:30:30 <alise> To win the game (as opposed to merely playing to beat other people's
20:30:30 <alise> high scores) you must locate the Amulet of Yendor which is somewhere
20:30:30 <alise> below the 20th level of the dungeon and get it out. Nobody has
20:30:30 <alise> achieved this yet and if somebody does, they will probably go down in
20:30:30 <alise> history as a hero among heroes.
20:35:08 <olsner> alise: is this nethack?
20:35:18 <alise> olsner: no, Rogue
20:35:24 <alise> or at least the presumably-old manpage for Rogue
20:35:27 <alise> 's Linux port
20:35:32 <alise> 1986
20:35:37 <alise> from 4BSD
20:35:44 <alise> so the original manpage it seems
20:35:53 <olsner> oh, ok... maybe someone's solved it in the decades after that then
20:36:10 <alise> of course
20:36:17 <alise> even programs have solved it
20:36:26 <alise> it's easier than nethack
20:36:30 <alise> by far
20:36:36 <alise> (although still difficult)
20:36:46 <alise> olsner: i don't suppose you know how to disable line spacing on a terminal?
20:36:49 <alise> it's fucking up my box drawing :D
20:37:23 <SgeoN2> Programs have solves roguelikes? O.o
20:37:36 <alise> SgeoN2: you do realise TAEB is a pretty good player?
20:37:44 <olsner> alise: I think the spacing is included in the fonts (at least in traditional ones), and that there are special characters for doing line drawing that use the full width/height
20:37:45 <alise> and that nethack is probably the hardest roguelike?
20:37:49 <alise> olsner: not traditional
20:37:52 <alise> modern terminal, modern font etc.
20:38:22 <SgeoN2> Supposedly, crawl is harder than spoiled NetHack
20:38:28 <SgeoN2> But maybe not for Bots I guess
20:39:31 * SgeoN2 was expecting to use ConnectBot ...
20:39:53 <alise> ConnectBot?
20:40:15 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Rogue_Screen_Shot_CAR.PNG i want my rogue server to look like this dammit
20:40:15 <Vorpal> alise, well... nothing hypothetical will happen today... Night
20:40:21 <SgeoN2> Telnet and SSH client for Android
20:40:24 <alise> Vorpal: night? at this time?
20:40:25 <olsner> normal fonts are subtler of course, but hmm, I think the same applies there really... the relationship between character grid size and character size is way more complicated, but I'm pretty sure the font could have the same kind of line drawing characters that fill up the space
20:40:33 <alise> olsner: no, i tried those
20:40:36 <alise> i believe the terminal is linespacing
20:40:38 <alise> ever so slightly
20:40:39 <Vorpal> alise, I have to wake up at 06:00... so yes
20:40:54 <SgeoN2> Is that a dwarf?
20:41:07 <alise> SgeoN2: no, that's your @
20:42:18 <alise> SgeoN2: ideas for my roguelike are buzzing around annoyingly since they'll be hard to implement >_>
20:44:54 <SgeoN2> The Sgeo Memorial Resignation proposal
20:44:59 <alise> wut
20:45:32 <SgeoN2> Possible name for a proposal to fix something that almost kept me trapped as Chroniclor
20:47:04 <SgeoN2> Xom is BORED
20:51:11 <madbrain2> oh, the good old dos font? :D
20:51:43 <madbrain2> the 8x14, 8x16, 9x14 or 9x16 version? :D
20:51:50 <madbrain2> (or 8x8 or 9x8)
20:52:00 <coppro> SgeoN2: you should read the rules before you complain that they're broken
20:59:00 <alise> SgeoN2: I'm actually creating a Rogue server...
20:59:17 <alise> madbrain2: I like the old DOS font for box drawing etc.
20:59:18 <SgeoN2> Awesome
20:59:23 <alise> The text is a bit crappy.
20:59:32 <SgeoN2> Maybe it's a roguelike I could actually win
20:59:40 <alise> ____
20:59:40 <alise> __________/ __ \____ ____ ___ _____ __________
20:59:40 <alise> /____/____/ /_/ / __ \/ __ `/ / / / _ \/____/____/
20:59:40 <alise> /_/ |_|\____/\__, /\__,_/\___/
20:59:41 <alise> /____/
20:59:51 <alise> And I dunno about that, Angband is generally considered easier, and I don't think Angband is considered easy.
21:01:19 * SgeoN2 ponders watching alises death on FooTV
21:01:54 <SgeoN2> Typing it out is going to be annoying
21:02:31 <SgeoN2> Slain by a worm, right?
21:02:38 <SgeoN2> About to send the command
21:04:25 <SgeoN2> Alise, you screwed up FooTV
21:05:14 <alise> how
21:05:31 <SgeoN2> Your weird terminal size issues
21:05:32 <alise> oh
21:05:35 <alise> my crazy game
21:05:35 <alise> haha
21:05:56 <SgeoN2> Should I put it on again so you can see for yourself?
21:06:07 <alise> sure
21:06:17 <SgeoN2> Tell me when
21:06:18 <alise> although i did check in the actual game
21:06:19 <alise> now
21:06:20 <alise> now is fine
21:06:29 <SgeoN2> Sent
21:06:37 <alise> trippy
21:07:49 <alise> heh
21:07:58 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:08:07 <zzo38> Try two simple roguelike games I have created
21:08:09 <SgeoN2> Hi zzo
21:08:59 <zzo38> I have other ideas for roguelike games too, which I have not implemented.
21:09:39 <zzo38> The games I created are: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/RL/KING.ZIP
21:09:57 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:10:03 <SgeoN2> Zzo, I'm planning on learning, or at least reading about, Forth
21:10:11 <alise> SgeoN2: so wikia won wrt the skin huh
21:10:38 <alise> SgeoN2: btw, the best way to learn forth is to read jonesforth. you don't need to understand assembly, just read all the (huge huge comments)
21:10:40 <zzo38> SgeoN2: Yes, it is a good thing to learn, afterward you might like or not like some things about it, you don't ever have to use it if you don't want to.
21:10:42 <alise> very very educational
21:10:52 <alise> http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.s.txt
21:11:01 <alise> explains everything in depth with nice diagrams
21:11:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:11:42 <alise> hi ais523
21:11:45 <SgeoN2> People regard strange languages as something that should go away?
21:12:01 <SgeoN2> I, and presumably everyone in the channel, regard them as fun!
21:12:39 <ais523> hi alise
21:12:56 <alise> SgeoN2: you don't need to read his links about learning forth the language, btw
21:13:04 <olsner> heh, it's not every day that an assembly program is the recommended reference :P
21:13:08 <alise> learning forth the language should come after learning how forth works; the latter is a prerequisite to understanding its philosophy
21:13:25 <alise> olsner: well, it's more like a book with assembly delimited by */ ... /* :-)
21:13:31 <zzo38> I have written several Forth systems, and programmed in some others too
21:13:34 <SgeoN2> Ultimate low level language?
21:13:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:13:44 <alise> SgeoN2: and ultimate high level language!
21:13:53 <ais523> I'm not certain I consider Forth a programming language
21:13:57 <ais523> it's more like a very lightweight OS
21:14:07 <SgeoN2> I like things where control structures are implemented in the language a LOT
21:14:30 <alise> SgeoN2: then you'll marry Forth.
21:14:40 <alise> ais523: ever played Rogue?
21:14:40 <SgeoN2> Any nice graphical Forth environments?
21:14:48 <alise> SgeoN2: uh, there may be. you don't really want one
21:14:50 <ais523> alise: no, although I've played original Hack
21:14:59 <zzo38> SgeoN2: Maybe, colorForth.
21:15:08 <zzo38> But you can use Forth fine without any graphical environments.
21:15:12 <ais523> SgeoN2: that question misses the point entirely
21:15:13 <alise> SgeoN2: in fact the only decent forth environment is NOT even a file -- writing code in a file is /not/ what Forth is about
21:15:16 <alise> it's about interactive development
21:15:26 <alise> indeed, in the best forth systems, there are no files, you just write code into blocks
21:15:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, little known fact: you can define if in Lisp with only lambdas and macros.
21:15:39 <ais523> forth + another OS seems wrong
21:15:40 <alise> SgeoN2: so basically if you're learning forth: never open an editor
21:15:44 <SgeoN2> I'm kind of trying to compare it to what I know -- Smalltalk
21:15:52 <ais523> forth's the sort of lang I'd run only in a VM, or on baremetal hardware
21:15:57 <ais523> SgeoN2: don't, the two are just completely incomparable
21:15:57 <alise> SgeoN2: let's put it this way: in the best forth systems, you never leave the REPL
21:16:01 <alise> in the entirety of your project
21:16:15 <ais523> alise: well, you have to write the REPL first
21:16:18 <zzo38> ais523: Forth actually works both as its own OS, on another OS, and also embedded into another program. (I have used it in all three ways)
21:16:22 <alise> ais523: erm, forth has a repl
21:16:25 <alise> that's the only interface
21:16:35 <alise> you know, code -> response -> "ok", repeat
21:16:38 <SgeoN2> They sound similar, in as much as they are self enclosed
21:16:41 <ais523> alise: I was under the impression that most Forth programmers started out by writing a minimal interp
21:16:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:16:49 <alise> ais523: you mean coding their own Forth?
21:16:50 <alise> no
21:16:53 <zzo38> ais523: Some Forth programmers do.
21:16:53 <alise> and you don't interpret Forth
21:17:00 <alise> you compile it :)
21:17:02 <alise> to threaded code
21:17:02 <ais523> I consider it as interpreting itself
21:17:15 <ais523> admittedly, sometime Forth interpreting itself causes it to compile itself
21:17:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:17:20 <alise> SgeoN2: now may be a good time to note that a bit of what ais523 is saying is very idiosyncratic and not how most forth programmers view things.
21:17:28 <zzo38> I have written more than one interpreter.
21:17:36 <ais523> meh, idiosyncratic's a good description for me
21:17:44 <alise> ais523: oh, i'm not saying it as a bad thing
21:17:46 <SgeoN2> I'm just going to read this thing you linked me
21:17:48 <alise> just that it's worth taking note
21:17:53 <alise> SgeoN2: that is the best policy.
21:18:07 <alise> ais523: anyway, I'm setting up a Rogue server
21:18:19 <ais523> I'm also the sort of person who believes that portable Forth is inherently missing the point
21:18:23 <alise> ais523: which is incredibly easy, as it takes the savefile on the command line and just puts scores in a rogue.scr file in the current directory.
21:18:32 <ais523> and that you should learn asm before starting Forth
21:18:49 <alise> does anyone know how to write a socket server that takes input unbufferedly?
21:18:58 <alise> like is there some telnet thing to tell the client "hey send me keypresses as they come in"
21:20:00 <SgeoN2> Maybe I'll just wait until I get home to read it
21:20:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, NAO obviously does it.
21:20:41 <alise> SgeoN2: probably a good idea
21:20:45 <alise> you need a big screen to read it :P
21:20:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well, duh
21:21:21 <Phantom_Hoover> You can do terminal control stuff with printing, can't you?
21:21:39 <alise> i don't think so
21:21:44 <alise> you need ioctl or whatever
21:22:03 <SgeoN2> Use Haskell!
21:22:18 <SgeoN2> Yay, so far the dryer hasn't caught fire
21:22:27 <zzo38> Some Forth systems allow "backtick notation". One of them is MegaZeux Forth. Here is the standard include file for MegaZeux Forth: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux.4th
21:23:12 <alise> zzo38: Does any Forth apart from MegaZeux Forth support this? Apart from ones you wrote?
21:23:16 <zzo38> (Most of it is just definition of constants. But a few control structures are also defined near the bottom.)
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21:23:29 <zzo38> alise: Yes. There are some that support it other than ones I write.
21:23:44 <SgeoN2> Hmm, it should be possible to make a Forth ... thingy for LSL, right?
21:23:58 <zzo38> I think HELFORTH was one such system with backtick notation, but I cannot find it any more.
21:24:03 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, is there anything you haven't reinvented?
21:24:13 <alise> SgeoN2: Please stop linking everything to other systems and just enjoy Forth standalone.
21:24:38 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, a lot of things, including mostly things that I have not even heard of.
21:24:51 <ais523> alise: I suppose that's one way in which you can compare Forth and Smalltalk; they both dislike interacting with other languages
21:24:53 <SgeoN2> What about for systems where it would be annoying to attempt to write anything other than machine code on the system itself? Can Forth be used for that sanely?
21:25:12 <alise> ais523: Forth is undoubtedly the more beautiful language, though.
21:25:13 <ais523> SgeoN2: yes, it's one of its main advantages
21:25:14 <alise> SgeoN2: Yes.
21:25:19 <alise> Forth is common in embedded development.
21:25:21 <zzo38> SgeoN2: It can, if done in a way that is good for that purpose. Which is possible.
21:25:22 <alise> It is very light-weight.
21:25:23 -!- madbrain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:25:24 <alise> Very, very light-weight.
21:25:45 <ais523> it does require the ability to write code at runtime, though
21:25:57 <zzo38> MegaZeux Forth interacts with two other programming languages, C and Robotic.
21:26:02 <SgeoN2> Ah...thatmay be tricky
21:26:08 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, Robotic?
21:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Another invention of yours?
21:26:17 <zzo38> It has to do with the way MegaZeux is designed, though.
21:26:27 <zzo38> Robotic is not another invention of mine. Gregory Janson invented Robotic.
21:26:28 <alise> ais523: nmapping a box that's right next to you; rate the craziness from 1 to 10
21:26:38 <zzo38> Robotic was the original programming language for MegaZeux.
21:26:39 <ais523> it depends on the reason
21:26:47 <alise> <ais523> it does require the ability to write code at runtime, though
21:26:48 <alise> not necessarily
21:26:51 <alise> you can do indirect threaded code
21:26:55 <SgeoN2> Hmm... Forth in Smalltalk! Smalltalk in Forth! The former is probably more sensible
21:26:59 <alise> that only requires being able to jump to an address stored in a memory location
21:27:03 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if he can do anything worthwhile in Coq
21:27:12 <alise> SgeoN2: as I said: you will never enjoy Forth unless you let it be separate from other things you know.
21:27:30 <ais523> the first is easier; the second probably makes more sense though
21:27:38 <SgeoN2> Bubut....
21:27:48 <alise> ais523: ?
21:27:50 <alise> ais523: oh
21:27:54 <alise> you were responding to SgeoN2
21:28:29 <pikhq> SgeoN2: Forth is its own OS.
21:28:31 <alise> Initiating Service scan at 21:27
21:28:31 <alise> Scanning 4 services on SE572 (
21:28:33 <alise> Hum de dum...
21:28:49 <alise> ais523: am I the only one who just got an urge to get some low-powered hardware and forth it the hell up?
21:28:50 <SgeoN2> Pikhq, can be
21:28:55 <Phantom_Hoover> ::=
21:29:04 <SgeoN2> Doesn't have to be, afaict from everyone here
21:29:11 <ais523> alise: I got a slight urge, but not enough to act on it
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21:29:31 <alise> ais523: it's just not the same when @ and ! can't really peek and poke any memory location
21:29:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, qemu?
21:30:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: >_<
21:30:07 <ais523> my knowledge about Forth is that I understand vaguely how a typical forth-in-asm works, but can't remember any of the syntax or individual commands
21:30:16 <alise> 80/tcp open tcpwrapped
21:30:16 <alise> 443/tcp open https?
21:30:16 <alise> 9000/tcp open tcpwrapped
21:30:16 <alise> 10000/tcp open snet-sensor-mgmt?
21:30:16 <ais523> well, effective syntax
21:30:20 <ais523> it's all just commands really
21:30:21 <alise> totally not helpful, nmap
21:30:21 <alise> ais523: there is no syntax.
21:30:23 <zzo38> alise: Yes.... but in some systems where Forth is embedded into another program, sometimes for security purposes you create memory mapped instead
21:30:30 <alise> :P
21:30:38 <ais523> alise: there's syntax in the same sense that ()! is a comment in Underload
21:30:51 <alise> words
21:30:58 <SgeoN2> O.o
21:31:08 <zzo38> In TAVSYS, which is another Forth system I wrote, there is 64K memory cells, which can be accessed by @ and ! unrestricted.
21:31:14 <SgeoN2> Is there a semistandarized way to use if?
21:31:46 <SgeoN2> Can Forth easily sandbox Forth?
21:32:05 <pikhq> SgeoN2: Define "Forth" and "sandbox". >:D
21:32:14 <ais523> hmm, /me reads the proggit article about Google releasing the fastest sort algo ever
21:32:18 <ais523> it's cheating by being O(n)
21:32:23 <ais523> and running on a GPU
21:32:32 <alise> SgeoN2: A semistandardised way to use if??
21:32:33 <zzo38> However, TAVSYS also has other storage areas, being a string table, and an object table. When an object is active, the memory locations 0x0000 to 0x01FF are memory mapped to the object. Strings are never memory mapped.
21:32:39 <alise> What?
21:32:42 <ais523> alise: radix sort
21:32:45 <ais523> it's not a comparison sort
21:32:46 <pikhq> ais523: Being O(n) is not cheating. It just means it's damned well not a comparison sort.
21:32:50 <ais523> pikhq: yep
21:32:55 <zzo38> What do you mean, a "semistandardised way to use if"?
21:33:00 <alise> ais523: I said nothing...
21:33:06 <pikhq> Oh, radix sort. Love that one.
21:33:10 <alise> XD
21:33:15 <alise> ais523: No, we /won't/ do something THAT evil to the horse.
21:33:16 <ais523> alise: you said "What?"; I thought you were responding to me
21:33:26 <SgeoN2> If is usually implemented in Forth, apparently. Can I usually take statements that have if from one Forth and put it into another?
21:33:53 <alise> <alise> SgeoN2: A semistandardised way to use if??
21:33:53 <alise> <alise> What?
21:33:54 <zzo38> Control structures can easily be implemented directly in Forth, including IF and so on.
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21:34:04 <alise> SgeoN2: if is implemented in Forth in the standard library ...
21:34:04 <alise> Not by you ..............................
21:34:10 <alise> -_-
21:34:10 <SgeoN2> Zzo, I understand that
21:34:13 <ais523> there's a standard library?
21:34:22 <pikhq> There's a standard anything?
21:34:38 <zzo38> : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; : THEN` HERE SWAP ! ; : ELSE` GOTO` ORIG SWAP THEN` ;
21:34:38 <SgeoN2> Forth is somewhat portable?
21:34:39 <alise> well
21:34:40 <fizzie> There's the ANS Forth words, you could call those standard-ish.
21:34:42 <alise> yes
21:34:42 <alise> ais523: ANS Forth, for instance
21:34:49 <zzo38> That is one way, that works in some Forth systems.
21:34:56 <alise> there's predefined words
21:34:56 <alise> close enough
21:35:11 <ais523> zzo38: what's with the backquotes?
21:35:19 <alise> SgeoN2: No.
21:35:35 <zzo38> Different Forth systems might have different standard libraries, alsthough not always, sometimes it is a few different ways. Somewhat like Plain TeX and Plain METAFONT are simple libraries for their programs.
21:35:42 <alise> I think SgeoN2 is playing a game where he asks a question, I say "no, with slight traces of yes", and he asks the opposite question :)
21:35:59 <alise> ais523: some crazy MegaZeux thing that nothing else implements
21:36:02 <fizzie> alise: "get some low-powered hardware and forth it the hell up" -- there's an ongoing thread in comp.lang.forth about 6502 forths, inspired by someone making his old Commodore PET run. It has a delightful percentage of 6502 asm in the message contents, even though it's a bit rambling.
21:36:25 <zzo38> ais523: This is used in Forth systems which use backtick notation. Not all Forth systems do it, but TAVSYS and MegaZeux both do. So does HELFORTH, although I don't know if HELFORTH can use these definitions of IF ELSE THEN exactly as is.
21:36:25 <alise> anyone want to help me break my router?!
21:36:27 <ais523> 6502 asm was the fourth programming I learnt
21:36:29 <SgeoN2> I have an old Pentium II...
21:36:43 <ais523> alise: you nmapped your own router?
21:37:07 <alise> ais523: yep
21:37:16 <alise> ais523: to try and find a telnet/ssh server
21:37:17 <ais523> that's not completely insane
21:37:28 <alise> uh oh, my router may have disconnected in retaliation
21:37:42 <alise> PING!!!
21:37:44 <ais523> you're still online, though
21:37:52 <alise> phew
21:38:00 <zzo38> In backtick notation, it works somewhat like that: The word IF` is the instructions for compiling the word IF
21:38:20 <ais523> admittedly, I've known a computer I've been using to have IRC but nothing else connected
21:39:04 <ais523> hmm, /how/ do you prove that you can't comparison-sort faster than n log n?
21:39:07 <zzo38> So : IF` 0=GOTO` ORIG ; means whenever the word IF should be compiled, it should compile 0=GOTO and then execute ORIG instead of compiling the word IF directly.
21:39:48 <fizzie> ais523: There's at least some sort of information-theoretical justification for it, but I've forgotten the details.
21:39:49 <zzo38> Is understandable to you?
21:39:56 <ais523> ah, I see; it's a different syntax for the "immediate" thing that's used by some other forths
21:40:03 <ais523> with one level of indirection
21:40:45 <zzo38> ais523: Yes. (And it is not a syntax I have invented, despite some people's belief.)
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21:47:33 <alise_> is there an option to less to restrict it? no running shell commands, etc
21:47:46 <alise_> ah
21:47:49 <alise_> LESSSECURE
21:49:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:49:53 <alise_> you'd think LESSSECURE would reduce security :)
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21:51:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:54:32 -!- SgeoN2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:55:11 <alise_> self.request.send(clear)
21:55:11 <alise_> rogue = Popen(['rogue', '-s'], stdin=PIPE, stdout=PIPE)
21:55:11 <alise_> less = Popen(['less'], stdin=rogue.stdin, stdout=self.request)
21:55:11 <alise_> less.wait()
21:55:14 * alise_ wonders why this doesn't work
21:55:48 <ais523> that capital P on Popen gives me worries
21:55:48 <olsner> ais523: it's about the number of permutations of a list, and the number of bits you (may, in the worst case) need to discover about the list you're trying to sort
21:56:01 <ais523> olsner: yep, I guessed it was something like that
21:56:01 <alise_> oh
21:56:04 <alise_> reading from stdin
21:56:07 <alise_> ais523: why worries? it's a class
21:56:12 <olsner> I think it's something trivial like log(n!) = nlog(n) in the end
21:56:18 <ais523> alise_: NetHack flashbacks
21:56:25 <alise_> ais523: huh?
21:56:27 <ais523> it uses macros starting with capital letters to indicate wrappers around something else
21:56:29 <alise_> do they use Popen with a capital P or something?
21:56:30 <alise_> ah
21:56:42 <ais523> e.g. Sprintf = a NetHack version of sprintf that acts the same way
21:56:57 <alise_> why is it wrapped, then?
21:56:58 <alise_> for errors?
21:57:15 <ais523> or Hallucinating = sugar for the struct field that says if the character is hallucinating (so it's assignable and readable, and acts like a global variable even though it isn't)
21:57:19 <ais523> and I don't know
21:57:27 <ais523> perhaps for portability
21:58:01 <alise_> gah
21:58:10 <alise_> ais523: don't you hate it when you think of the obvious, dumb solution to your current bug
21:58:12 <alise_> put it in place
21:58:15 <alise_> and it still fails in the exact same way?
21:58:38 <ais523> that often indicates a second bug
21:58:42 <alise_> exactly
21:58:44 <alise_> but it's so irritating
21:58:46 <ais523> but it can be a little frustrating
21:58:58 <ais523> I can sometimes catch so many bugs trying to track down a different bug
21:59:05 <ais523> just because I'm rereading the code looking for <s>scams</s> bugs
21:59:29 <Sgeo> Are you SURE I should read Jonesforth before reading say, the wiki page?
21:59:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Jonesforth is in GAS. Qed.
22:00:02 <Sgeo> ??
22:00:08 <ais523> is Jonesforth the Forth interp in literate asm + Forth?
22:00:14 <ais523> if so, read it first, it's excellent
22:00:16 <olsner> Sgeo: yes, I'm reading it now and almost know forth now
22:00:28 <Phantom_Hoover> GAS is basically pain implemented as an assembler.
22:00:49 <Sgeo> ais523, it _looks_ like literate asm to me
22:01:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not really, it just has tonnes of comments.
22:01:39 <Sgeo> Ok, so : ; is Forth syntax for defining stuff?
22:01:42 <alise_> Sgeo: no
22:01:43 <alise_> there is NO SYNTAX
22:01:46 <Sgeo> : DOUBLE DUP + ;
22:01:47 <alise_> don't try and skip ahead
22:01:49 <Sgeo> ...?
22:01:51 <Sgeo> I'm NOT
22:01:51 <alise_> just accept jonesforth for what it is and read on
22:01:56 <ais523> : and ; are Forth commands
22:02:00 <Sgeo> I'm looking at the section called THE DICTIONARY
22:02:08 <alise_> Sgeo: well, then, yes
22:02:13 <ais523> using them in a pair acts rather like a syntax for defining, though
22:02:16 <ais523> but read the actual definitions
22:02:17 <alise_> for now, you can just read : X ... ; as define the word X to be ...
22:02:25 <alise_> until the actual definition is explained later
22:02:37 <alise_> dup duplicates the top of the stack, but you probably could have guessed that already
22:02:55 <olsner> this is exactly why you should learn the interpreter first and the language afterwards :P
22:03:33 <Sgeo> The dictionary is a double linked list?
22:03:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Low level x86 thought: could you malloc a block, then set rsp to it?
22:03:39 <alise_> Sgeo: in this implementation.
22:03:47 <alise_> olsner: unfortunately jonesforth /does/ say ": ... ;" at the start
22:03:58 <Sgeo> Why didn't he say "double linked list"?
22:04:03 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: "low level x86" and "malloc" don't normally go together
22:04:19 <olsner> Sgeo: no, it's a single-linked list afaict
22:04:20 <ais523> DOS has a syscall that acts exactly like malloc, but that's kind-of unusual
22:04:26 <alise_> ah right
22:04:28 <alise_> yes, single
22:04:33 <alise_> Sgeo: it's exactly what jonesforth says it is :P
22:04:33 <Sgeo> Oh, it's backwards
22:04:50 * Sgeo wonders why
22:05:08 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll stop commentatering
22:05:12 <alise_> Sgeo: because it's a stack
22:05:45 <Sgeo> Is that an implementation thing, for fundamental to Forth?
22:05:57 * Sgeo guesses the latter
22:05:59 <alise_> Implementation. But try not to think about Forth-the-language right now.
22:06:06 <alise_> Well, I suppose it's half-way.
22:06:06 <olsner> the implicit shadowing seems fundamental, the rest is probably implementation
22:06:11 <alise_> All that really matters is Jonesforth, at the moment.
22:06:17 <alise_> You can disregard all other Forth implementations until later.
22:07:16 <zzo38> There is no syntax in Forth. : is the command to read the next word and enter compile mode with that word meaning that definition, and ; is the word to end the current definition and compile the command to stop it, and go back into interpret mode.
22:07:58 <zzo38> Some people try to write syntax highlighting software to highlight Forth syntax, but it doesn't work so well, unless you write the syntax highlighting software itself in Forth.
22:08:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:08:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:08:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, OK, low-level Linux.
22:08:44 <ais523> malloc still assumes a libc
22:09:01 <alise_> ais523: i think he means using asm on linux with libc
22:09:08 <alise_> *with a libc
22:09:24 <ais523> I'd consider low-level Linux to use sbrk and mmap if it wants memory
22:09:40 <alise_> i think you're missing the point of his question. maybe.
22:09:43 <alise_> not sure
22:10:13 <olsner> mmap seems like a better thing for allocating a stack
22:10:19 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:10:35 <alise_> does anyone know how to force less into believing it's running on a terminal, even if i'm piping it around?
22:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_, he is.
22:11:08 <Vorpal> <olsner> mmap seems like a better thing for allocating a stack <-- mmap is used for the stack on linux
22:11:19 <Vorpal> well it is mmap + some magic
22:11:48 <Vorpal> MAP_GROWSDOWN
22:11:54 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: so you're asking about setting rsp? then yes, AFAIK you're free to set %rsp to whatever you want
22:12:01 <Vorpal> and MAP_STACK
22:12:18 <zzo38> alise_: Yes I have tried to do that once, in a computer at FreeGeek, trying to make a program in a pipe believe its output is a terminal, I looked at the man pages, and yet I didn't quite figure it out.
22:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, will you go completely mad if you do so?
22:12:48 <Vorpal> night really
22:13:14 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I think it's a perfectly sane thing to do occasionally
22:13:38 <Sgeo> I might not have comp time until later
22:18:04 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: %rsp is a general purpose register that call and ret happen to use.
22:18:16 <Phantom_Hoover> And push and pop...
22:18:26 <alise_> Vorpal: Ha, see.
22:18:33 <alise_> pikhq: Here, you tell me how to make less believe it's talking to a terminal which just so happens to be a socket.
22:19:10 <alise_> aha
22:19:12 <alise_> I can use script, I bet
22:21:18 <alise_> ais523: what's the termcast script again?
22:21:21 <alise_> the script -f thing
22:21:31 <ais523> you didn't save it?
22:21:44 <alise_> yes, but then my harddrive misplaced itself into format land
22:22:02 <ais523> script -f >( cat ./ratry_login - | nc -q5 noway.ratry.ru 31337 > /dev/null ) "$@"
22:22:07 <alise_> thanks
22:22:11 <ais523> and ./ratry_login is hello username password
22:22:32 <alise_> yeah
22:23:58 <alise_> ais523: feels weird to use script to just run a command though...
22:24:01 <alise_> do you know how nethack servers do it?
22:24:19 <ais523> almost exactly like that, but with ttyrec rather than script
22:24:24 <Sgeo> Is this codeword stuff Jonesforth or Forth?
22:24:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:24:31 <ais523> (and ttyrec is just a version of script with more precise timestamps)
22:24:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:24:49 <ais523> what script's doing there is to capture the screen output
22:24:50 <Sgeo> Also, can this special interpreter function be written in FORTH itself?
22:24:55 <ais523> there's nothing really weird about that, given the circumstances
22:25:46 <alise_> ais523: so script -f -c 'some command' >socket should work fine, right?
22:25:51 <alise_> where >socket is done in the programming language, not a shell, ofc
22:26:18 <ais523> alise_: not really, script writes to a file
22:26:22 <Sgeo> I love it when it says "AS you will have seen"
22:26:30 <ais523> the >() makes an anonymous pipe for it to write to, I think
22:26:39 <alise_> ais523: yes, but if you give script's stdout as a socket in a programming language...
22:26:42 <ais523> which then gets passed with /dev/fd/1 syntax
22:26:42 <alise_> script = Popen(['script', '-f', '-c', 'rogue -s | less -c'],
22:26:42 <alise_> stdin=PIPE, stdout=self.request)
22:26:50 <alise_> after all, sockets are files
22:26:55 <Sgeo> DOCOL
22:26:57 <ais523> then it'd be script -f socket -c 'some command'
22:27:05 <alise_> ais523: err, you can't do that
22:27:06 <Sgeo> Is there any reason to use DOCOL in ordinary FORTH code?
22:27:08 <alise_> sockets aren't files on the filesystem
22:27:12 <alise_> script = Popen(['script', '-f', '-c', 'rogue -s | less -c'],
22:27:12 <alise_> stdin=PIPE, stdout=self.request)
22:27:18 <ais523> alise_: yes they are
22:27:24 <ais523> in Linux, /dev/fd/number
22:27:24 <alise_> Sgeo: what does it do again?
22:27:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: That is for you to figure out if you have reason or not.
22:27:29 <ais523> where number is the socket's ID
22:27:30 <alise_> ais523: yes, but...
22:27:38 <ais523> or you can use a named socket if you prefer
22:27:49 <Sgeo> alise_, it's the codeword/FORTH interpreter/thingy
22:27:49 <alise_> ais523: you DO realise you can specify process' stdins and stdouts as any file in C or whatever, right?
22:27:58 <alise_> including sockets without using a filename?
22:28:00 <Sgeo> That does return stack stuff
22:28:09 <ais523> alise_: you DO realise that script /does not write its recording to stdout/, do you?
22:28:10 <alise_> Sgeo: DOCOL is :
22:28:16 <ais523> that's what I'm trying to get at
22:28:18 <Sgeo> o.O
22:28:23 <alise_> ais523: then why does "script -f >foo" work?
22:28:30 <ais523> that's not what the script says
22:28:34 <ais523> it says script -f >(foo)
22:28:38 <alise_> i know that
22:28:39 <alise_> but i tested it
22:28:40 <alise_> myself
22:28:40 <ais523> where >() is a bashism
22:28:48 <alise_> script -f >foo /works/
22:28:49 <alise_> simple as
22:29:16 <ais523> alise_: hmm, I think script must be sending the /original/ output to stdout
22:29:22 <alise_> indeed my code snippet works too
22:29:24 <alise_> ais523: unlikely
22:29:25 <ais523> thus, you get the recording, but can't see what happens onscreen yourself
22:29:31 <alise_> uh, yeah
22:29:32 <alise_> that's sort of what i want
22:29:34 <ais523> alise_: script -f >foo creates a file called "typescript", doesn't it/
22:29:34 <alise_> :P
22:29:38 <alise_> since i'm sending to a socket
22:29:41 <ais523> because a filename isn't specified
22:29:48 <alise_> ais523: yes, true
22:29:50 <alise_> you need /dev/null in there
22:30:07 <alise_> but this whole thing makes script fool the command into thinking it's running on a tty, so it's all good
22:30:15 <Sgeo> 4+ and 4- are really worth implementing in Assembly?
22:30:23 <ais523> alise_: because it is running on a tty
22:30:27 <ais523> that's what script /does/, creates a tty
22:30:31 <alise_> ais523: yes, precisely
22:30:38 <alise_> Sgeo: not really
22:30:42 <alise_> Sgeo: it's just an example
22:31:20 <ais523> 4 is the size of a pointer on an x86
22:31:24 <ais523> so that might be one reason
22:32:20 <alise_> Okay, /now/ all I have to do is figure out how to tell a Telnet client "yo, gimme raw keyboard codes, innit, instead of line-buffering. Innit."
22:32:52 <ais523> alise_: are you talking about termcast atm?
22:33:11 <alise_> ais523: nope, I'm still writing NetRogue (the deliberately-misleadingly-named internet Rogue server)
22:33:25 <alise_> I need to send the Telnet client into raw keyboard input mode
22:33:31 <alise_> so that rogue and other programs work properly
22:33:34 <alise_> rather than going "wtf"
22:36:04 <ais523> this has nothing in theory to do with raw keyboard input
22:36:10 <ais523> but in practice, telnet servers tend to get the hint
22:37:11 <alise_> ais523: no, /I'm/ the telnet server
22:37:13 <alise_> talking to the client
22:37:20 <alise_> trying to coerce the client into giving me raw keyboard input like nethack.alt.org does
22:37:24 <ais523> err, telnet's symmetrical
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22:38:10 <alise_> ais523: eh?
22:38:14 <alise_> really?
22:38:17 <ais523> alise_: yes
22:38:35 <alise_> i'm not sure what character sequence <ais523> DO SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD DO ECHO WILL SUPPRESS-GO-AHEAD WILL ECHO corresponds to
22:38:39 <alise_> also, is that really what NAO sends?
22:38:53 <ais523> I think so, at least it's what Jettyplay sends NAO
22:39:04 <ais523> (I told you it was symmetrical, even with respect to sending and receiving)
22:39:12 <ais523> (and with respect to asking for and turning on options)
22:39:22 <ais523> let me check specifically what NAO sends, I have it recorded somewhere
22:40:20 <ais523> yep, DO SGA DO ECHO WILL SGA WILL ECHO
22:40:22 <ais523> the order doesn't matter
22:40:40 <alise_> ais523: do you know what characters they correspond to? also, presumably all prefixed with \037, right?
22:41:21 <ais523> no, prefixed with 253
22:41:32 <alise_> bah, same thing
22:41:36 <ais523> umm, 255
22:41:59 <ais523> 255 253 3 255 251 3 255 253 1 255 251 1
22:42:20 <ais523> but you need to implement enough of the telnet protocol to avoid infinite loops
22:42:27 <alise_> i implement none of it
22:42:36 <alise_> I suppose there is no way to make all this work with netcat?
22:42:41 * ais523 glares at netcat's "telnet mode", which only half-implements the protocol
22:42:44 <Sgeo> Bye
22:42:47 * Sgeo growls
22:43:31 <ais523> netcat is very shoddy with its telnet impl; connecting it to a real telnet server/client the other side notices the loop and breaks it, but connecting two to each other would create a loop
22:43:59 <alise_> ais523: erm, we are talking Hobbit netcat here, right?
22:44:08 <ais523> I think so
22:44:09 <alise_> if you mean GNU netcat or whatever, it's irrelevant what it does because i don't care about it
22:44:16 <ais523> I know it was /very/ hackish
22:44:18 <alise_> i don't think hobbit netcat does telnet
22:44:24 <ais523> hmm, maybe it is GNU netcat
22:44:26 <alise_> ais523: i mean nethack in raw tcp mode anyway
22:44:28 <ais523> anyway, it doesn't claim to do telnet
22:44:45 <ais523> it just claims to strip out telnet metadata and send sane-looking responses
22:44:59 <alise_> "Two movies that Legend Films are noted for is the colorization of the exploitation film Reefer Madness, for which certain color schemes were used to create a psychedelic effect in its viewers, and Plan 9 from Outer Space." ;; but WHY?
22:45:16 <alise_> ais523: ok, so if I send that magical sequence, what do i need to handle as a response to avoid an infinite loop?
22:45:50 <ais523> you probably want to negotiate DO BINARY too in order that the other end can actually send the keypad codes
22:45:55 <ais523> I imagine they don't fit into the normal text range
22:46:12 <alise_> Gah, this is so complicated.
22:46:17 <alise_> Why the heck can't I just say "raw keyboard mode"?
22:46:41 <ais523> alise_: because telnet's default settings are designed for communicating with typewriters
22:47:05 <alise_> ais523: So do I have to "negotiate"? Can't I just spit this stuff at the client and let it set it?
22:47:33 <ais523> you do, because the client will be requesting modes that you probably don't implement
22:47:37 <ais523> and you have to let it know you don't implement them
22:47:45 <Sgeo> "Start address+length is the normal way to represent strings in FORTH (not ending in an
22:47:45 <Sgeo> ASCII NUL character as in C), and so FORTH strings can contain any character including NULs
22:47:45 <Sgeo> and can be any length."
22:47:52 <Sgeo> What about length of the length?
22:48:30 <ais523> alise_: http://pastebin.ca/1928584
22:49:11 <ais523> your impl will probably be simpler because you don't care what terminal type the other system is using (or do you?)
22:49:14 <alise_> ais523: I think I will just cry now.
22:49:17 <ais523> whereas NAO does, so jettyplay has to tell it
22:49:34 <alise_> Yeah, I don't care about that; I'm just assuming basic VT100 stuff, since that's all Rogue uses.
22:49:56 <alise_> ais523: But seriously, what? What the hell? How to WHAT can this be so complex?
22:50:05 <alise_> I weep for anyone who writes Telnet.
22:50:10 <ais523> I don't see why you think that's complex!
22:50:21 <ais523> it's actually pretty simple
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22:50:55 <ais523> line 232 onwards is the bit that handles options you don't support
22:50:56 <alise_> ais523: it's complex for the simple network server that i thought this would be
22:51:05 <alise_> is there any issue with just copying your initial send sequence?
22:51:17 <ais523> that's less than 100 lines, and over 20 are comments
22:51:29 <ais523> alise_: you'll end up passing up the other side's reply to Rogue
22:51:41 <ais523> and I don't know how it'll interpret it
22:51:52 <ais523> also, if the other side asks a question, it may hang waiting for your answer
22:52:14 <alise_> ais523: actually, i display a menu first
22:52:18 <alise_> but i didn't mean that
22:52:24 <alise_> I meant is your initial sequence ok for this
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22:52:29 <alise_> or does it have additional stuff?
22:52:39 <alise_> also, it's more the state machine that irritated me, since the code is ridiculously simple right now :-)
22:52:41 <ais523> leave out the WILL NEW-ENVIRON and WILL TERMINAL-TYPE
22:52:59 <ais523> a telnet server probably shouldn't offer to send environment variables and terminal type to the client
22:53:08 <alise_> haha
22:53:17 <ais523> also, leave out the NAWS too, /it/ doesn't care what size /your/ window is
22:53:20 <alise_> Opinion added to database: Telnet = fucked up.
22:53:39 <SgeoN1> Maybe I can read it on my phone
22:53:41 <alise_> ais523: whyyy did you have to say this after i stripped it into a string
22:53:48 <ais523> and change the WILL TOGGLE-FLOW-CONTROL to DO TOGGLE-FLOW-CONTROL, as you're on the other end of the connection
22:54:08 <alise_> what about do echo / will echo?
22:54:09 <ais523> actually, just leave that one out; NAO cares, but telnet clients don't seem to
22:54:13 <ais523> the order doesn't matter
22:54:19 <ais523> reversing that you get will echo / do echo
22:54:23 <ais523> which is the same in a different order
22:54:34 <ais523> ("echo" here means "I'm handling your character echoing")
22:54:45 <ais523> (and telnet clients won't just send raw keypresses without that, typically)
22:55:09 <alise_> so get rid of toggle-flow-control right?
22:55:10 <alise_> okay
22:55:15 <alise_> so I hvae
22:55:17 <alise_> *have
22:55:38 <ais523> looks about right, and it's nice and symmetrical
22:56:02 <ais523> then if you don't mind using the "netcat hack", just send DONT or WONT to any other request by the other side
22:56:20 <alise_> \255\251\0\255\253\0\255\253\3\255\251\3\255\253\1\255\251\1
22:56:22 <ais523> it leads to an infinite loop of DONTs and WONTs if the other side is badly-behaved, as you're not meant to send the same signal twice in a row
22:56:43 <alise_> ais523: so that would break netcat?
22:56:47 <ais523> (as in, you don't send DONT X DONT X without a DO X in the middle)
22:56:50 <ais523> alise_: only in telnet-hack mode
22:56:58 <ais523> it's a hack that only breaks if both ends of the connection use it
22:57:13 <alise_> ais523: well, whatever, i'll just assume the client is well-behaved
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22:57:31 <alise_> ais523: hmm
22:57:34 <alise_> def setup(self):
22:57:34 <alise_> self.request.send(
22:57:34 <alise_> '\255\251\0\255\253\0\255\253\3\255\251\3\255\253\1\255\251\1')
22:57:37 <alise_> no hanging or anything
22:57:39 <ais523> so, say, GNU telnet sends you "WILL NAWS" (I'll tell you my window size if you want) and you reply "DONT NAWS" (I don't care)
22:57:39 <alise_> it just simply has no effect
22:57:50 <ais523> hmm, interesting
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22:59:04 <fizzie> Aren't \nnn's usually in octal?
22:59:13 <fizzie> At least Python's are.
22:59:15 <ais523> are you sure you've set the socket to unbuffered at your end?
22:59:20 <alise_> fizzie: oh, gah
22:59:34 <alise_> ais523: No. I don't think Python even lets you do that after the fact.
22:59:39 <alise_> I suppose I could write my own socket machinery.
22:59:41 <alise_> But what fizzie said.
22:59:44 <alise_> Time to convert them all to hex.
22:59:46 <fizzie> Do the \xnn instead, it's more readable.
22:59:49 <fizzie> Rights.
23:00:08 <ais523> alise_: "after the fact"? that's the only way to do it IIRC
23:00:37 <ais523> you also have to allow for the fact that 255 is an escape character (thus you have to undouble 255s when receiving and double them when sending)
23:00:44 <ais523> (except as part of a negotiation sequence like that)
23:01:05 <alise_> ais523: I'll never be sending \255s.
23:01:22 <ais523> hmm, OK
23:01:32 <fizzie> ITYM \377s. :p
23:01:35 <ais523> why do you not just use a telnet library?
23:02:12 <alise_> ais523: there's a telnetlib but it appears to only do clients in python
23:02:18 <alise_> and I'm not touching Twisted
23:02:24 <alise_> (dunno if it even does telnet)
23:02:51 <ais523> just translate my impl from Jettyplay?
23:02:57 <alise_> ais523: unless you think symmetricity would make http://docs.python.org/library/telnetlib.html fine?
23:03:06 * ais523 checks the logs for the URL
23:03:25 <alise_> apart from the .open() bit wanting host/port
23:03:29 <alise_> I could probably hack in a .socket = foo
23:03:41 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:03:58 <alise_> It has non-blocking stuff, at least.
23:04:01 <SgeoN1> I'm up to the part with : and ;
23:04:07 <SgeoN1> This is so amazing
23:05:00 <ais523> alise_: hmm, is source for that available?
23:05:25 <ais523> that library seems very general, it doesn't seem to handle anything but the default WONT/DONT for everything
23:05:32 <alise_> ais523: /usr/lib/python2.6/telnetlib.py
23:06:40 <olsner> http://bsx.ru/~gong/lj/atari-forth.jpg :D
23:06:58 <ais523> reading it now
23:07:50 <alise_> well, the sending works now
23:07:56 <alise_> olsner: old :) but still great
23:07:59 <ais523> beh, that's not even a complete implementation
23:08:19 <alise_> olsner: I wonder what the artist was thinking when he decided "And now I'll draw the pants, complete with erect bulge..."
23:08:22 <ais523> in fact, it uses the netcat hack
23:08:32 <alise_> ais523: nutin' wrong with that
23:08:39 <ais523> my opinion on Python's libraries has just gone way down
23:08:49 <ais523> (although admittedly, the Perl telnet libraries have similar issues)
23:09:26 <alise_> ais523: you'll be horrified to learn that I'm just going to ignore all other commands
23:09:34 <alise_> it sends requests and stuff, but ignoring them breaks nothing
23:09:35 <alise_> MWAHAHAHA
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23:10:11 <ais523> so how are you handling incoming IACs? just passing them straight on to Rogue?
23:10:35 <alise_> ais523: I won't get any once Rogue starts, will I?
23:10:39 <alise_> I show a menu first.
23:10:49 <ais523> in theory you can get them at any time
23:10:57 <ais523> you're likely to get one if the client resizes their terminal, for instance
23:11:00 <ais523> (although not guaranteed)
23:11:11 <ais523> (especially as you said you didn't care about the terminal size)
23:11:36 <alise_> ais523: just tried it; nope
23:11:53 <ais523> hmm, actually you didn't say you didn't care about the terminal size
23:11:55 <alise_> the nice thing here is that telnet(1) is much less irritating for me than your conception of an average client :D
23:11:56 <ais523> just... didn't answer
23:12:02 <alise_> yep
23:12:08 <alise_> telnet appears to be coded for broken servers
23:12:09 <alise_> which is great
23:13:58 <ais523> well, it seems vaguely unlikely that you'll come across a client that decides it suddenly can't handle binary halfway through the session
23:14:06 <ais523> (the protocol actually allows for that!)
23:14:20 <alise_> heh
23:14:28 <alise_> ais523: er, how do I tell if the client's disconnected?
23:14:33 <alise_> the socket doesn't close; I just get empty strings back
23:14:41 <ais523> the socket /should/ close
23:14:45 <ais523> that sounds like a bug in the socket library
23:15:01 <ais523> at least, you should get EOFs back
23:15:08 <ais523> which in Python causes an exception
23:15:56 <ais523> the telnet protocol is really clever, actually
23:16:15 <alise_> brb
23:16:30 <ais523> if both sides try to negotiate the same options and the messages cross, each side interprets the other's question as an answer
23:18:53 <ais523> hmm, just noticed an error in Jettyplay's impl; if the other side asks it to send the window size, it sends the size, /then/ accepts the request
23:18:55 <ais523> which makes no sense
23:19:24 <ais523> but that only happens if the other side turned window-size negotiation off then on again, which seems a little implausible
23:24:13 <fizzie> Speaking of which! I didn't really follow the run-in-pty discussion earlier, but Python has the "pty" package -- http://docs.python.org/library/pty.html -- that can be very useful for such fakery. It's a bit on the non-portable side, though, and might not really apply in these circumstances for all I know.
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23:47:36 <alise_> back
23:48:21 <alise_> <ais523> if both sides try to negotiate the same options and the messages cross, each side interprets the other's question as an answer
23:48:25 <alise_> why not just make the two the same?
23:48:39 <ais523> they are
23:48:47 <alise_> ah
23:49:09 <alise_> ais523: ttyrec is basically just script with timing information, right?
23:49:11 <ais523> DO BINARY is either a question ("please switch into binary mode, if you're willing") or an answer ("you said you supported binary mode, please turn it on")
23:49:13 <ais523> alise_: yep
23:50:02 <alise_> ais523: and watching a game can simply be "ttytail foo", right?
23:50:12 <ais523> no, tail -F
23:50:17 <ais523> ttytail is something different
23:50:22 <ais523> (tail -F piped to ttyplay, that is)
23:50:22 <alise_> what's ttytail, then?
23:50:34 <ais523> hmm, ttytail does do something similar
23:50:41 <ais523> except it monitors directories for new ttyrecs turning up
23:51:08 <alise_> ah
23:52:10 <alise_> what does ttytime do?
23:52:26 <alise_> hmm, tty* have no manpages
23:52:52 <ais523> ttytime exists?
23:53:03 <alise_> apparently.
23:53:04 <alise_> ah
23:53:07 <alise_> tells you how many seconds long it is
23:53:21 <alise_> since there are no manpages, do you know what the -u and -a switches do for ttyrec?
23:53:43 <alise_> -p Peek another person's ttyrecord ;; and isn't this probably better to use than tail -F? any rason not to?
23:53:53 <ais523> no reason not to, I don't think
23:54:02 <alise_> also, surely it should be -f, not -F?
23:54:14 <ais523> from the manpage: -a Append the output to file or ttyrecord, rather than overwriting it.
23:54:18 <ais523> -f and -F do much the same thing
23:54:24 <ais523> -f follows the inode, -F follows the filename
23:54:31 <alise_> ah, I want -a
23:54:31 <ais523> normally -F is more useful for what I use tail for
23:54:37 <alise_> since the ttyrec should be for the entire game
23:54:52 <ais523> -u With this option, ttyrec automatically calls uudecode(1) and saves its output when uuencoded data appear on the session. It allow you to transfer files from remote host. You can call ttyrec with this option, login to the remote host and invoke uuencode(1) on it for the file you want to transfer.
23:54:56 <ais523> I love that option
23:55:07 <alise_> wat XD
23:55:22 <ais523> much better than the workarounds I had to do with automatically generated printf commands last time I had that problem
23:55:40 <ais523> (part of the issue was that the other system had nothing but a stripped-down busybox)
23:55:49 <ais523> (and I was trying to send a binary to it over a serial cable)
23:55:51 <alise_> yay, rogue at least operates
23:55:59 <alise_> now to wrap it in save file logic and ttyrec
23:56:04 <alise_> and then write the viewing interface
23:56:23 <alise_> ais523: I don't suppose telnet has a standardised facility for saving to the client's disk? :-D
23:56:30 <alise_> ("Yes, it's called FTP.")
23:56:34 <ais523> that doesn't even make sense...
23:56:54 <ais523> what if the client is a typewriter?
23:57:09 <alise_> ais523: then I shoot them
23:58:12 <ais523> incidentally, it's fun to compare Windows telnet, GNU telnet, and the RFCs in explaining the mess with character-at-a-time sending
23:58:19 <ais523> GNU telnet just glosses over the technical details entirely
23:58:47 <ais523> Windows telnet talks about how the whole situation is a kludge and what its interpretation is
23:59:12 <ais523> and the RFCs talk about how an example in the original RFC was misinterpreted as a normative statement, which is especially fun as it's ambiguous
23:59:30 <ais523> but pretty much everyone agrees that ECHO and SGA simultaneously mean character-at-a-time sending, even though it makes no sense
23:59:44 <ais523> the debates are mostly about what happens if you just have one or the other
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