←2010-08-29 2010-08-30 2010-08-31→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:54 <ais523> (this is why /servers/ ask the /clients/ to handle echo for them, even though it otherwise makes no sense)
00:01:29 <alise_> ais523: I am ... so confused.
00:01:48 <ais523> it's easier than most esolangs...
00:02:01 <ais523> now I want to make a telnet-based esolang, somehow
00:04:58 <alise_> ais523: yes, but esolangs are meant to be like that
00:12:13 <alise_> argh, i have to write login logic
00:12:18 <alise_> writing programs is so boring
00:12:23 <alise_> it's all boring stuff
00:14:08 <alise_> ais523: is there a way to turn off raw mode that doesn't make me want to die?
00:14:30 <ais523> the same sequence as before, with DONT and WONT rather than DO and WILL
00:14:37 <ais523> and then the other side will go back to default settings
00:14:46 <ais523> which may also be raw mode, as far as telnet is concerned
00:15:04 <alise_> what are the values of (DO,WILL,DONT,WONT), just for the record?
00:15:06 <alise_> or rather
00:15:09 <alise_> just so i can replace them :-)
00:15:13 <alise_> thanks for the help btw
00:15:45 <ais523> the interesting codes are from line 220 onwards at http://pastebin.ca/1928584
00:15:54 <ais523> DONT=254, DO=253, WONT=252, WILL=251
00:16:11 <ais523> oh, you probably want to leave on DO BINARY
00:16:44 <ais523> mostly because the consequences of turning that off were never really properly defined
00:19:12 <alise_> ais523: and turning on binary is ok even if you didn't turn it off?
00:19:14 <alise_> like, doing it twice
00:19:44 <ais523> try not to
00:19:59 <ais523> sending a negotiation code twice in a row without sending the opposite in between is specifically banned by the standard
00:20:11 <ais523> mostly because if the other side is buggy, it'll try to reply
00:20:14 <alise_> ais523: yes, but so is blatantly ignoring the client's requests.
00:20:23 <alise_> well, ok then
00:20:57 <ais523> the response to DONT X is /always/ WONT X, btw, unless the other client's already sent WONT XD
00:21:00 <alise_> AttributeError: '_socketobject' object has no attribute 'readline'
00:21:01 <ais523> *WONT X
00:21:07 <alise_> I hate the part where Python sockets do fuck all for you.
00:21:12 <ais523> and vice versa
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00:27:11 <alise_> ais523: TCP over UDP!
00:27:27 <ais523> that's what... TCP is?
00:27:57 <bsmntbombdood> no it's not
00:29:36 <ais523> not exactly
00:29:40 <ais523> but it's pretty close
00:30:50 <alise_> well, true
00:30:54 <alise_> ais523: TCP over Telnet, then
00:31:27 <alise_> there's actually IPv6 over Facebook, an implementation of RFC 5514: tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5514
00:31:49 <alise_> unfortunately, as the set of people who would both install such an awesome "application" and both use Facebook is very small, it doesn't work very well
00:32:51 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
00:33:04 <alise_> ('\xff\xfc\x03\xff\xfe\x03\xff\xfe\x01alise\n', '\xff\xfb\x03\xff\xfd\x03\xff\xfc\x01\xff\xfd\x01\xff\xfc\x03\xff\xfe\x03\xff\xfe\x01')
00:33:10 <alise_> stupid replying clients
00:33:35 <alise_> solution: strip out invalid chars!
00:34:12 <ais523> alise_: you would expect the client to reply...
00:34:19 <alise_> ais523: yes, but pah!
00:34:29 <ais523> only really insane clients like your server wouldn't
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00:35:13 <ais523> why aren't you just using dgamelaunch, btw?
00:38:13 <alise_> ais523: well, I forgot entirely that it could do this sort of stuff to start with, and *also* thought this would be EASY
00:38:24 <alise_> besides... any moron can stick a dgamelaunch up and call it a server
00:38:31 <alise_> but it doesn't have that earthly quality, you know?
00:38:39 <alise_> homegrown server, complete with brokennes
00:38:42 <alise_> *brokenness
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00:38:46 <ais523> just like any moron can implement telnet incorrectly if given lots of hints over IRC?
00:40:01 <alise_> ais523: yep!
00:40:16 <alise_> i tried reading the spec but then i cried
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00:48:12 <pikhq> And now, I have gone ahead and made for minimal chrome on most things. Because dammit, I hate using screenspace.
00:50:41 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:52:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:52:32 * oerjan read that as criminal mome. or something like that.
00:53:38 <ais523> pikhq: when I was young, I customized Word to have two rows of toolbars on each side
00:53:40 <ais523> and I actually used them
00:53:46 <ais523> (and this was on a 640x480 screen...)
00:54:31 <pikhq> There is no need for the titlebar to be any taller than needed to show a line of text!
00:54:42 <pikhq> Nor is there any need for the panel to be any taller than that!
00:55:33 <ais523> why do you need titlebars at all?
00:56:11 <pikhq> Because otherwise this would look like a terminal running on a framebuffer; P
00:56:14 <pikhq> Erm.
00:56:15 <pikhq> :P
00:56:51 <pikhq> Hrm. Actually.
00:57:00 <pikhq> *Is* there any need for titlebars at all?
00:57:13 <alise_> Only for dragging.
00:57:17 <alise_> Which you don't need.
00:57:17 <pikhq> I'm going with "no", then.
00:57:19 <alise_> Alt+drag.
00:57:26 <alise_> pikhq: All you need is a 1px window border. Then you have evilwm.
00:57:32 <alise_> http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/images/cap1.jpg
01:02:27 <pikhq> alise_: Tempting.
01:02:35 <alise_> pikhq: Or, you know, just install evilwm.
01:02:43 <alise_> http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/
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01:08:29 <alise_> ais523: can I count on the response-questions to my uncooking/making-raw being the same length no matter what the client?
01:08:32 <alise_> since they're systematic
01:09:07 <ais523> well, no, but you probably will anyway
01:09:33 <alise_> ais523: "can" as in "can without breaking telnet and netcat's fake mode" :P
01:09:38 <ais523> after you remake-raw, it's possible that the client will try to turn on other features
01:09:43 * pikhq has come to the conclusion the Mist theme for GTK is the best theme.
01:10:23 <alise_> pikhq: no, GreyMist is
01:10:32 <alise_> (my modification of Mist's gtkrc that makes it grey instead of blue)
01:10:36 <alise_> (for selections, etc.)
01:10:48 <pikhq> alise_: Screenshot?
01:11:05 <alise_> pikhq: Don't have one at the moment, but just imagine Mist, except whenever you see blue, imagine it's just a darker grey.
01:11:17 <pikhq> Okay, paste?
01:11:22 <alise_> I'll dig up the file.
01:11:34 <alise_> pikhq: Oh, it also decreases menu padding to be a bit more space-conserving.
01:13:24 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:14:07 <pikhq> alise_: Should be in ~/.themes, BTW
01:14:28 <alise_> pikhq: I know. I /did/ write it. :P
01:14:32 <pikhq> :P
01:14:37 <alise_> "Reading archive, please wait..."
01:14:39 <alise_> This may take a while.
01:14:42 <alise_> It is a rather big archive.
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01:20:50 * pikhq contemplates good diacritics for making a better, less odd-looking romanisation scheme for Japanese
01:21:46 <pikhq> Are there any that exist pre-composed for: a, i, u, e, o, k, s, t, n, h, m, y, r, w?
01:22:27 <alise_> maybe!
01:22:35 <alise_> pikhq: why not just use combining chars?
01:22:57 <pikhq> alise_: That'd involve adding the combining chars to my Compose settings.
01:23:13 <alise_> pikhq: compose keys can output multiple chars
01:23:21 <alise_> THE MORE YOU KNOW #######*
01:23:32 <pikhq> Yes, but it'd still involve adding things to my Compose settings.
01:24:17 <pikhq> Besides which, it's a crapshoot what the combining chars render as...
01:24:52 <alise_> pikhq: ~/.themes/GreyMist/gtk-2.0/gtkrc: http://pastie.org/1125134.txt?key=znunu4lxosrtikj6nmyu3a
01:25:02 <alise_> ~/.gtkrc-2.0:
01:25:03 <alise_> gtk-theme-name="GreyMist"
01:25:03 <alise_> include "/home/ehird/.themes/GreyMist/gtk-2.0/gtkrc"
01:25:07 <alise_> the first line is important
01:25:11 <alise_> some stuff e.g. Qt's GTK engine breaks without it
01:25:20 <alise_> erm, s/ehird/pikhq/, of course
01:27:31 <coppro> having to work with root = :( :( :( :( :(
01:27:37 <pikhq> alise_: Awesome.
01:28:02 <alise_> coppro: yeah he was the worst agora player EVER
01:28:04 <alise_> EVERRR
01:28:26 <pikhq> alise_: Take THAT, color!
01:28:38 <alise_> pikhq: MONOCHROME IS KING
01:28:54 <alise_> pikhq: you have to use a tiling WM, so that no background COLOUR can get through
01:30:05 <pikhq> alise_: Alas, I am not currently using a tiling WM.
01:30:41 <coppro> alise_: uh, he won
01:30:51 <alise_> coppro: I was joking
01:32:09 <pikhq> alise_: However, the desktop is solid black.
01:32:21 <alise_> pikhq: I suggest #555.
01:32:27 <pikhq> Bah.
01:32:28 <alise_> It's more neutral.
01:32:35 <alise_> #000 sucks when you have windows with white-backgrounded webpages, etc.
01:32:49 <pikhq> Okay, that's a fair point.
01:33:04 <coppro> I mean accidentally deleting an important .git and trying to get it back means working as root. And it's bad
01:33:34 <alise_> #555 background + GreyMist + pekwm with my "bland" theme (imagine GreyMist, but in a window manager theme) was my setup very recently.
01:34:30 <pikhq> alise_: Because dammit, UIs shouldn't be flashy. :)
01:34:56 <alise_> pikhq: Having said that, I'm currently using GNOME out of sheer laziness.
01:35:03 <pikhq> Baaah.
01:35:23 <coppro> flashy = bad. Good-looking = good
01:37:09 <pikhq> I don't even want there to be a look to it. There shall be: content.
01:37:12 <alise_> You use KDE4.
01:37:16 <alise_> KDE SC 4 does not look good.
01:37:27 <coppro> SC?
01:37:32 <pikhq> If there's enough room on screen for extraneous elements to look good, then *there's too much wasted space*.
01:37:35 <alise_> coppro: There is no such thing as "KDE 4".
01:37:45 <alise_> It is "the KDE Software Collection 4", as of a view versions ago.
01:37:47 <coppro> ah
01:37:50 <alise_> Abbreviated, KDE SC 4.
01:37:56 * coppro facepalms
01:38:02 <alise_> Sorry, *Compilation
01:38:02 <coppro> and yes, it does look good
01:38:08 <alise_> No. It doesn't
01:38:10 <alise_> *doesn't.
01:38:20 <pikhq> It's a pity that Midori tends to crash, otherwise I'd be using that instead of Chrome.
01:39:13 <alise_> pikhq: If you don't mind a few GNOME libraries, Epiphany is decent enough.
01:39:24 <alise_> Although it fails at font sizes a bit.
01:39:34 <alise_> (it respects GNOME's default font size settings, which makes everything too small)
01:39:42 <alise_> (can be partially rectified with a user style sheet, but for some reason this doesn't help Wikipedia)
01:42:38 <coppro> can someone tell me the average number of block groups on an ext3 system?
01:42:44 <coppro> *disk
01:46:29 <coppro> I may be here for a while :(
01:46:33 <alise_> coppro: 312
01:46:37 <alise_> why not just use the ext3grep tools?
01:46:43 <coppro> alise_: that's what I'm doing
01:46:44 <alise_> or whatever they're called
01:46:52 <coppro> at group 357 and counting
01:46:55 <alise_> 312 was an asspull btw
01:47:03 <alise_> coppro: you're not using that disk right now, yeah?
01:47:03 <coppro> yeah, I figured
01:47:06 <alise_> mount it read only immediately
01:47:09 <coppro> alise_: it's mounted ro
01:47:12 <alise_> good
01:47:17 <alise_> coppro: i'd just unmount it
01:47:19 <coppro> first thing I did
01:47:21 <alise_> you don't need it mounted at all
01:47:31 <coppro> I needed to access a few files
01:47:36 <coppro> such as the network key
01:48:18 <coppro> just for safety, I also chmoded a-r on the device
01:51:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot).
01:52:11 <coppro> waitaminute
01:52:15 <coppro> that .git was mirrored on githup
01:52:18 <coppro> *github
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02:00:55 <alise_> coppro: hahahahaha
02:08:05 <coppro> it may not be up-to-date though :/
02:12:29 <alise_> antology
02:32:11 <alise_> coppro: you ever played Rogue?
02:35:52 -!- kwertii has joined.
02:38:29 <pikhq> Next person to make a tarbomb gets MURDERED
02:38:43 <pikhq> I repeat, MURDERED
02:38:43 <coppro> alise_: no
02:38:46 <coppro> tarbomb?
02:39:07 <alise_> coppro: tar that extracts into current directory instead of subdirectory
02:41:46 <pikhq> Also: why do many webcomics have feeds containing just "new comic posted"?
02:42:41 <pikhq> "We hear that RSS is awesome, but we'd rather not make it useful."
02:43:00 <coppro> that reminds me; I need a good feed aggregator
02:43:02 <coppro> suggestions?>
02:43:31 * coppro is now just letting ext3grep run in hopes of discovering how many groups there are
02:44:02 <lifthrasiir> is a git repository with a directory named .git which is identical to itself possible?
02:45:31 <pikhq> Just... Why would I possibly want to follow a feed that's basically nothing more than "I posted a new comic today, like I do regularly!"
02:47:23 <alise_> lifthrasiir: with manual tweaking, maybe
02:47:26 <alise_> /maybe/
02:47:30 <alise_> if it stores compressed
02:47:53 <alise_> "Save file (/home/ehird/rogue.save)? "
02:54:56 <oerjan> deftly defiant defaults
03:13:09 <alise_> anyone want to watch me play rogue?
03:13:16 <coppro> no
03:14:57 <alise_> coppro: nos are implicit
03:15:10 <alise_> i guess nethack is more exciting :)
03:25:31 <oerjan> implicated nose
03:26:06 <alise_> Sgeo: pikhq: broadcasting on `telnet termcast.org`, fwiw.
03:28:23 <alise_> And I die.
03:29:24 <alise_> pikhq: WATCH ME PLAY ROGUE TO EASE YOUR SOUL
03:29:29 <Sgeo> alise_, ???
03:29:31 <alise_> 4BSD VINTAGE!
03:29:37 <alise_> Sgeo: I'm playing Rogue Itself.
03:30:24 <alise_> Sgeo: on termcast
03:30:53 <Sgeo> My dad was annoying
03:31:16 <alise_> BUT HE DOES NOT PLAY ROGUE
03:31:19 <alise_> I DO
03:31:24 <alise_> WATCH OR DIE
03:31:41 <Sgeo> Forced to go to a concert. I had a headache. Told dad. He said wanted to stay to the end of the concert
03:31:55 <alise_> Rogue can cure headaches.
03:32:01 <alise_> It has slime-molds (with the hyphen).
03:32:45 <Sgeo> I think I like Forth
03:32:50 <alise_> WATCH ROGUE
03:33:08 <Sgeo> After I prepare my pasta
03:33:21 <Sgeo> : SAYHI (crud, I forgot what's next)
03:33:27 <pikhq> http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2006/01/27/screen-scraping-for-rss/ Perfect.
03:34:15 <alise_> pikhq: the best rss client is a good email client, btw
03:34:20 <alise_> unfortunately, the latter does not exist
03:34:29 <alise_> http://www.allthingsrss.com/rss2email/
03:36:12 <Sgeo> : DOSPACES 42 SPACES ;
03:36:48 <alise_> Sgeo: WAATCH ME PLAY ROOOGUE
03:37:50 <alise_> Sgeo: :'(
03:37:53 <alise_> SNIFF.
03:37:56 <Sgeo> alise_, soonish
03:38:06 <alise_> anyone played Angband or ADOM?
03:39:40 <Sgeo> I'm not _quite_ sure I get @
03:39:45 <Sgeo> Is that like dereference?
03:40:01 <alise_> Sgeo: @ reads one word from the memory address on the top of the stack
03:40:14 <alise_> that is, "n @" is C *(int *)n
03:40:16 <alise_> more or less
03:40:21 <alise_> simple as that
03:40:54 <Sgeo> And ! is (val addr --)? Like putting val in *addr?
03:41:17 <alise_> yep.
03:41:36 <Sgeo> I love how comments are defined by Forth code
03:41:43 <alise_> *( val addr -- ), btw
03:41:46 <alise_> you need the spaces
03:42:06 <alise_> Sgeo: "VARIABLE foo" allocates one word of memory, and then defines the word foo to push that memory location on the stack
03:42:11 <alise_> e.g. : foo 38453 ; or whatever
03:42:13 <Sgeo> Oh, right
03:42:16 <alise_> then you can do
03:42:20 <alise_> foo @ 1+ foo !
03:42:21 <alise_> etc
03:42:23 <alise_> to obvious effect
03:42:24 <Sgeo> ALLOC is like malloc?
03:42:32 <alise_> i dunno about ALLOC, it's probably some jonesforth-internal thing
03:42:40 <alise_> but yeah, it's basically retarded-ish malloc
03:42:44 <alise_> Sgeo: this is simpler on the direct hardware of course
03:42:45 <alise_> without an os
03:42:50 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor.
03:44:12 <Sgeo> Does it ever make sense to have ] without COMPILE?
03:44:16 <Sgeo> Or whatver the word is?
03:44:49 <Sgeo> Maybe, for example, allocating what might in another language be a variable shared between invocations of a function?
03:45:00 <alise_> Sgeo: ] does what it does, it's useful for exactly what it does
03:45:05 <alise_> forth doesn't have this uptight notion of best practices
03:45:11 <alise_> use a word if it does what you want to do
03:46:33 <alise_> Sgeo: now connect to rogue dammit
03:47:54 <Sgeo> alise_, can you detect when I connect?
03:48:27 <alise_> yep, you're connected
03:48:32 <alise_> here goes
03:48:56 * Sgeo isn't watching closely, need to go make pasta
03:49:28 <Sgeo> um
03:49:33 <Sgeo> Is your terminal being weird?
03:49:49 <alise_> Sgeo: No?
03:49:53 <Sgeo> How many @ do you see on your screen?
03:49:57 <alise_> whoa, wtf has happened
03:50:03 <alise_> fixed
03:50:03 <Sgeo> I see 5
03:50:06 <Sgeo> Not amnyore
03:50:08 <Sgeo> What was the problem?
03:50:11 <alise_> wtf is up with that
03:50:14 <Sgeo> NOw there's 3!
03:50:19 <Sgeo> erm, just 3
03:50:38 <alise_> Sgeo: i have no idea what's going on
03:50:52 <Sgeo> Headache just got worse
03:51:25 <alise_> hmm
03:52:22 <alise_> oh i know Sgeo
03:52:28 <alise_> fixing now
03:55:54 <alise_> Sgeo: broadcasting
03:56:10 <Sgeo> Tell me when Rogue cures headaches
03:57:05 <alise_> Sgeo: now
03:57:12 <alise_> time for a fight
03:57:25 <alise_> % is stairs btw
03:57:47 <Sgeo> It just happened to die in such a way as a NH person can confuse that with leaving a corpse
03:58:49 <alise_> yep
03:59:19 <Sgeo> Is there hunger in Rogue?
03:59:30 <alise_> Sgeo: I think so.
03:59:35 <alise_> Maybe not, though.
03:59:39 <alise_> Sgeo: Snakes, by the way, are the deadliest enemy early game.
03:59:42 <alise_> They keep killing me!
03:59:45 <alise_> And they never give up following.
04:00:05 <Sgeo> It had to be snakes
04:00:15 <alise_> Sgeo: This is what we call "fucked".
04:00:31 <Sgeo> There was another1
04:00:34 <alise_> yep
04:00:48 <Sgeo> You can't walk diagonally?
04:01:56 <alise_> Sgeo: not in corridors
04:01:59 <alise_> or through doorways
04:02:19 <alise_> Sgeo: Kaboom.
04:02:56 <alise_> Sgeo: And so we start again.
04:03:07 <alise_> tl;dr Seriously, fuck snakes.
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04:03:55 <alise_> Sgeo: Also, bats are missfests.
04:04:19 <Sgeo> Makes sense
04:04:24 <alise_> Sgeo: FUCK SNAKES.
04:04:32 <Sgeo> Huh
04:04:35 <Sgeo> VALUE is fun
04:05:34 <alise_> Sgeo: What we are learning here is that Rogue early game SUCKS ASS.
04:05:47 <alise_> Sgeo: Oh, and since there's no colour, identification is so much easier.
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04:08:56 <Sgeo> 'WORD word FIND ?HIDDEN' returns true if 'word' is flagged as hidden.
04:09:04 <Sgeo> How can you find it if it's hidden
04:09:04 <Sgeo> ?
04:09:10 <Sgeo> Or is 'WORD something else?
04:09:30 <alise_> Sgeo: I think hidden means not considered a definition of a word. I dunno.
04:09:32 <alise_> read earlier
04:10:43 <Sgeo> There's no generally agreed syntax for CASE...ENDCASE?
04:10:45 <Sgeo> o.O
04:11:00 <alise_> i think there is
04:11:02 <alise_> i dunno
04:11:07 <alise_> Sgeo: don't worry about standards atm :P
04:12:05 <Sgeo> I don't like how in Jonesforth, IF doesn't work in immediate mode
04:13:45 <alise_> Sgeo: oh yeah, monster difficulty seems to vary wildly
04:14:30 <Sgeo> I forgot what LIT does, although it's important
04:14:41 <alise_> {LIT, 3} pushes 3 on the stack
04:14:46 <alise_> because 3 obviously isn't a pointer to a valid word
04:14:48 <alise_> LIT looks one ahead
04:15:33 <alise_> Sgeo: Downstairs!
04:16:18 * Sgeo headaches
04:16:52 <alise_> Sgeo: hungry
04:17:08 <Sgeo> What does food look like?
04:17:24 <alise_> i) A scroll titled 'marodjo klier glen muresh'
04:17:26 <alise_> Glen Muresh
04:17:27 <alise_> Sgeo: :
04:17:48 <alise_> "Some food" -- food rations in the inventory XD
04:17:51 <Sgeo> : means something different in each roguelike
04:19:08 <alise_> Sgeo: Dimly lit area!
04:19:48 * Sgeo wonders if his AW computer should just be a Forth machine
04:19:51 <alise_> Sgeo: With nothing in!
04:20:03 <alise_> *in it!
04:21:05 <alise_> You feel a bite in your leg and now feel weaker
04:22:10 <alise_> Sgeo: If I hit that ice monster, I will probably die.
04:25:22 <alise_> Sgeo: as far as i can tell, searching only does things in corridors, never discovers doors
04:26:05 <Sgeo> Are there secret doors?
04:26:55 <alise_> I don't think so.
04:27:23 <alise_> Sgeo: Quaff random potions, read random scrolls, run away.
04:27:25 <alise_> Any suggestions?
04:28:05 <alise_> Or, attack with other weapons?
04:28:06 <Sgeo> 0 VALUE AVALUE
04:29:46 <alise_> Sgeo: no seriously i'm at 5hp need halp :P
04:31:53 <alise_> Sgeo: it's just like nethack
04:32:02 <alise_> 5hp, enemy, quaff random potion, read random scroll, or run away?
04:32:10 <alise_> Not "run away", is the answer.
04:32:16 <alise_> *"Don't run away",
04:33:43 <alise_> Sgeo: This is not my game.
04:34:54 <Sgeo> ?
04:34:58 <alise_> I did terribly
04:35:25 <Sgeo> Be a Troll Berserker in Crawl
04:37:26 <alise_> Sgeo: Why?
04:37:40 <Sgeo> It's easy! (early-game)
04:38:13 <Sgeo> And very not-boring
04:38:13 <alise_> yeah, but
04:38:17 <alise_> rogue is fun!
04:38:31 <Sgeo> I got bored with Merfolk Ice Elementalist
04:38:40 <Sgeo> Almost gave up on roguelikes
04:39:15 <alise_> what, altogether?
04:39:28 <oerjan> Merfolk Ice Environmentalists worry about global warming ruining their arctic homeland
04:39:43 <alise_> Lesson learned: HOBGOBLINS ARE FUCKING WHAT
04:39:58 <oerjan> alise_: everything that moves?
04:40:20 <alise_> Yes. But also death itself.
04:40:57 <oerjan> sounds unhealthy
04:42:36 <alise_> Sgeo: WORST DAY
04:42:57 <Sgeo> Write a roguelike OS in Forth
04:43:43 <oerjan> sounds fun(gy)
04:44:07 <alise_> Sgeo: Fun fact: The point system is based entirely on your gold.
04:44:13 <alise_> 10% is deducted from dying (rather than just quitting)
04:44:16 <alise_> *for dying
04:44:20 <ais523> wouldn't a roguelike OS have a random set of commands every time you ran it?
04:44:27 <ais523> and an experience-points-based filesystem?
04:44:51 <Sgeo> When you die, everything gets deleted, obviously
04:46:29 <Sgeo> ( addr u fam -- fd 0 (if successful) | c-addr u fam -- fd errno (if there was an error) )
04:46:30 <Sgeo> HUH?
04:46:43 <Sgeo> Is that saying that the input changes based on whether or not there was an error?
04:48:02 <alise_> Sgeo: no, the output changes, presumably
04:48:05 <alise_> where's that from?
04:48:08 <alise_> doesn't look like jonesforth
04:48:18 <Sgeo> It is
04:48:22 <Sgeo> http://www.annexia.org/_file/jonesforth.f.txt
04:48:31 <alise_> okay
04:48:35 <alise_> he probably changed addr -> c-addr at some point
04:48:38 <alise_> and forgot to change both
04:49:36 <alise_> ais523: "You don't hit my snake" -- please put this in AceHack as one of the possible missing messages
04:49:41 <alise_> ais523: "You don't hit the snake" -- please put this in AceHack as one of the possible missing messages
04:49:44 <alise_> that is
04:49:50 <alise_> it's my favourite action feedback, ever
04:49:55 <ais523> specifically for snakes?
04:49:57 <ais523> or for everything?
04:50:00 <alise_> ais523: for everything
04:50:11 <alise_> I'm half-expecting the next message to be "You don't teleport to the bottom level of the dungeon"
04:50:17 <Sgeo> You don't hit the alise.
04:50:22 <alise_> "You don't detonate a bomb, causing everything in the nearby region to be destroyed"
04:50:25 <ais523> perhaps as a hallu message
04:50:31 <alise_> ais523: (it's from Rogue)
04:51:09 <alise_> yay, a "slime-mold"!
04:51:55 <alise_> Sgeo: wat @ these corridors
04:52:12 <Sgeo> Obviously it's some sort of code
04:52:21 <alise_> ais523: imgur.com/XQTjp.png does this ever happen in nethack?
04:52:25 <alise_> just, you know
04:52:27 <alise_> out of curiosity
04:52:30 <alise_> since you're modifying the code
04:52:34 <Sgeo> There are mazelike levels
04:52:36 <alise_> just wondering if there's a generate_wtf_corridors() function
04:52:38 <Sgeo> Too many of them
04:52:42 <Sgeo> But they don't look like that
04:53:20 <Sgeo> HighSchool!
04:54:32 <Sgeo> S" TEST-MODE" FIND NOT IF
04:54:34 <Sgeo> Why not:
04:54:41 <Sgeo> WORD TEST-MODE FIND NOT IF ?
04:55:03 <Sgeo> Oh, because strings have a different structure? But doesn't FIND usually expect the stucture of words, not strings?
04:55:13 <alise_> Sgeo: ' FOO would give a pointer to the word
04:55:17 <alise_> presumably that does some dictionary searching
04:55:19 <alise_> which would be by string
04:56:21 <ais523> alise_: I don't think so
04:56:51 <Sgeo> What
04:56:58 <Sgeo> What's colorForth, and is it good or evil?
04:57:15 <alise_> Sgeo: Chuck Moore's latest project.
04:57:18 <alise_> Chuck Moore invented Forth.
04:57:25 <alise_> It's, uh, Forth where instead of : and ; and the like, you have colours.
04:57:31 <alise_> Interesting ... but ... you don't want to use it.
04:57:47 <Sgeo> hmm?
04:57:57 <alise_> Sgeo: Here's an IDE driver in ColorForth: http://www.colorforth.com/ide.html
04:58:10 <alise_> It's only available as an x86 operating system which uses a 27-key Dvorak keyboard.
04:58:15 <alise_> So, yeah: you don't want to use it.
04:58:19 <alise_> (Yes, 27-key.)
04:58:32 <alise_> http://www.colorforth.com/cf.png screenshot
04:58:41 <alise_> "Source code is organized in 256-word blocks."
04:58:47 <Sgeo> I _have_ to use Dvorak?
04:58:48 <Sgeo> o.O
04:59:11 <alise_> Yes. 27-key Dvorak.
04:59:19 <alise_> He's Chuck Moore. He's old and he can do what the fuck he likes.
04:59:24 <coppro> wtf
04:59:56 <alise_> criticising it is like criticising Knuth for doing something insane
04:59:59 <alise_> he's allowed to, dammit
05:00:16 <alise_> Sgeo: HOLY FUCKING WHAT
05:00:18 <alise_> (see termcast)
05:00:31 <Sgeo> BSE?
05:00:39 <alise_> Sgeo: you didn't see the ROOM OF UNHOLY FUCKING MONSTERS?
05:00:47 <alise_> There, now you can see them.
05:00:50 <Sgeo> SHI
05:00:52 <Sgeo> Just missing a T
05:01:53 <alise_> ais523: ok, I will never complain about Roguelike early game ever again
05:02:00 <alise_> ais523: Rogue's early game is utterly impossible
05:02:16 <alise_> The most I've reached is level 4, and that was a miracle. Getting to level 2 can be a challenge.
05:02:58 <Sgeo> alise_, good luck with a Demigod Chaos Knight
05:03:07 <Sgeo> (Note: That's actually physically impossible)
05:03:19 <alise_> Sgeo: Spoken like someone who's never played Rogue.
05:03:25 <alise_> No character classes. Only one: Suck.
05:03:52 <Sgeo> Chaos Knights start out worshipping one of three gods
05:03:57 <Sgeo> Demigods cannot worship any god
05:04:28 <alise_> ais523: you should have a go at Rogue sometime, it's harder than NetHack!
05:04:34 <alise_> don't need any spoilers though :P
05:05:26 <alise_> also, the Rogue RNG is provably evil
05:06:02 <alise_> http://imgur.com/mxB0Z.png
05:06:06 <alise_> I call this piece "Dungeon Level 1".
05:06:45 <Sgeo> It's almost saying the role you should play in Crawl!
05:07:08 <ais523> alise_: Rogue is often uncompletable by pure chance
05:07:19 <alise_> ais523: haha
05:07:27 <ais523> due to there not being enough food in the game to make it possible to complete without starving
05:07:32 <alise_> XD
05:07:32 <coppro> dear god, he's hooked
05:07:33 <alise_> ais523: the varied monster strength is weird
05:07:39 <alise_> coppro: who is
05:07:49 <alise_> ais523: like, a kestrel can get you down to 1hp one turn, then be defeated in two turns another
05:08:52 <Sgeo> There are professional Forth programmers?!
05:08:54 <alise_> level 4 on dlvl 1
05:08:56 <alise_> Sgeo: ...
05:09:03 <alise_> Sgeo: Dude, it's heavily used in the embedded industry.
05:09:11 <ais523> alise_: Crawl does that, I hate it for that
05:09:15 <alise_> You have probably relied on Forth at some point in your life and not realised it.
05:09:23 <ais523> there are monsters with superattacks that can oneshot you but normally don't use them...
05:09:32 <alise_> ais523: is it even possible to get to level 4 on dlvl1 in NetHack without extreme RNG hate?
05:10:09 * alise_ wonders if Rogue has a concept of weight
05:10:29 <Sgeo> Will there ever be a point where embedded systems don't need to rely on Forth?
05:10:37 <ais523> alise_: yes, especially if you're playing tourist
05:10:53 <ais523> it's been known to set up pudding farms on dlvl 1
05:11:01 <Sgeo> I've heard that Tourists are hard until the quest
05:11:33 <alise_> Sgeo: many embedded systems don't rely on forth
05:11:52 <Sgeo> Then what do they use?
05:11:58 <alise_> Uhh... assembly...
05:11:59 <alise_> i) cph (idle 00:16:03, connected 00:16:45, 0 viewers, 7195 bytes)
05:12:00 <alise_> j) cph (idle 00:08:18, connected 00:08:33, 0 viewers, 3190 bytes)
05:12:00 <alise_> k) cph (idle 00:00:00, connected 00:06:00, 0 viewers, 37989 bytes)
05:12:04 <alise_> ^ the guy is playing three nethack games at once
05:12:57 <alise_> ---+-
05:12:57 <alise_> +EE@+
05:12:57 <alise_> |!BE|
05:12:57 <alise_> -----
05:12:58 <alise_> ais523: >_<
05:13:21 <ais523> heh
05:13:35 <ais523> Sgeo: asm or C
05:13:38 <Sgeo> I think the AW computer will be a stack machine
05:14:03 <Sgeo> How easy/painful is it to make a stack machine without ICs?
05:14:27 <Sgeo> Relative to a more standard type of machine
05:14:31 <alise_> ais523: are ice monsters /meant/ to kill you in one hit?
05:14:35 <alise_> maybe i just got unlucky
05:14:38 <alise_> i dunno if nethack has them
05:15:00 <alise_> Sgeo: horrible, like all such endeavours
05:15:11 <ais523> alise_: Crawl has them, and they're scary there
05:15:13 <ais523> but NetHack doesn't
05:15:22 <alise_> last time i hit one in rogue, i died. like that, instantly
05:15:25 <alise_> i hit it, gravestone came up
05:15:28 <ais523> Sgeo: you mean, out of discrete transisters?
05:15:29 <Sgeo> Ice monsters v Antaeus!
05:15:30 <alise_> they don't move though
05:15:30 <ais523> *transistors
05:15:30 <alise_> so heh
05:15:38 <Sgeo> ais523, well, something like transistors
05:15:43 <alise_> ais523: no, out of AWistors, which are like transistors, but broken in a lovely activeworlds way
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05:18:52 <ais523> oh, esoteric building blocks?
05:20:44 <Sgeo> yes
05:21:36 <Sgeo> alise_, run a FORTH server!
05:21:43 <alise_> ais523: are two-handed swords better than maces? i forget
05:21:48 <alise_> presumably what applies in nethack applies in rogue
05:21:52 * alise_ stops bugging ais523 about nethack things
05:23:01 <alise_> Sgeo: that's enough for today :P
05:23:07 <ais523> alise_: in NetHack, yes but they use up both hands
05:23:13 <ais523> in most roguelikes, maces are rather rubbish
05:23:30 <alise_> ais523: i don't think you have hands in rogue
05:24:56 <ais523> do you have shields?
05:25:02 <ais523> two-handed weapon + shield = bad in most games
05:25:58 <alise_> i don't think so
05:26:04 <alise_> but i also think rogue is far too simple to think about stuff like that
05:26:13 <alise_> after all, it was the very first roguelike
05:26:16 <alise_> and combat isn't exactly varied
05:26:19 <alise_> nor are the levels
05:26:20 <Sgeo> Oh
05:26:25 <Sgeo> [ ] LITERAL
05:26:28 <alise_> Sgeo: ?
05:26:30 <Sgeo> Not [ ] COMPILE
05:26:46 <Sgeo> alise_, an earlier question was wrong
05:27:07 <alise_> question? in jonesforth?
05:27:47 <Sgeo> I asked something or other about ] COMPILE
05:27:51 <Sgeo> When I meant ] LITERAL
05:27:54 <Sgeo> according to wikipedia
05:30:38 <alise_> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php
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05:34:08 <Sgeo> Rails is not a language!
05:34:16 <Sgeo> grargh
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06:55:21 <Sgeo> I can't read just one tutorial to learn something
06:55:25 <Sgeo> I always like reading several
06:55:47 <Sgeo> I start on my second (third if you count unhelpful Wikipedia) tutorial, with much knowledge gleaned from the first
07:01:32 <coppro> learnyouarails
07:05:29 <Sgeo> MS Security Essentials thought a part of Win32Forth was a worm
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07:20:25 * coppro still needs a feed aggregator!
07:22:09 <ais523> I use Akregator
07:22:19 <Sgeo> What?
07:22:22 <ais523> Sgeo: probably because of self-modifying code
07:22:38 <Sgeo> Win32Forth does not like multiline comments in the REPL
07:23:18 <coppro> Akgregator has the advantage of already being on my computer
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07:32:52 <coppro> okay, I like Akregator
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07:36:38 <Sgeo> "With the need to encode
07:36:38 <Sgeo> alphabets other than the Latin one (e.g. Chinese, Arabic, Hebrew, Cyrillic) a
07:36:38 <Sgeo> two-byte encoding called Unicode has been adopted, which allows for 65535
07:36:38 <Sgeo> distinct characters.
07:36:38 <Sgeo> "
07:36:42 * Sgeo facepalms
07:41:36 <coppro> aye
07:41:43 <coppro> what language is this?
07:44:31 <Sgeo> http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/primer.htm#strings
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07:46:04 <Sgeo> I need to sleep VERY soon
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07:54:07 <Sgeo> I need to slepe
07:54:21 <Sgeo> First, finding out what time I need to take the bus
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08:04:10 <Sgeo> I'll try to be there at 8, I guess
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08:24:31 <Sgeo> 1 base !
08:39:15 <coppro> hmm
08:39:21 <coppro> is [ a valid brainfuck program?
08:39:22 <coppro> err
08:39:23 <coppro> ]
08:39:27 <coppro> [ obviously isn't
08:40:14 <wareya> I don't think you can have a closing bracket withotu an opening
08:40:58 <coppro> ] on a zero cell is a noop though
08:41:10 <coppro> so ], if allowed, would execute successfully
08:41:30 <wareya> Are you sure?
08:41:36 <wareya> I don't think that it's defined...
08:42:16 <coppro> yes, ] is "if cell is 0, noop, else go back to prior matched ["
08:42:29 <wareya> It's defined exactly like that?
08:43:02 <coppro> usually, yes
08:43:10 <wareya> In that case. "]" is valid.
08:43:33 <wareya> ut I feel like it would end up being implementatino defined.
08:43:44 <coppro> Wikipedia describes it as "if the byte at the data pointer is nonzero, then instead of moving the instruction pointer forward to the next command, jump it back to the command after the matching [ command*."
08:44:11 <wareya> I'm sorry, I have my hands full so I can't type well right now.
08:44:38 * coppro wants to write a BF compiler in sed
08:48:19 <coppro> haha I like MGIFOS
09:30:52 <fizzie> Most (well, at least some) implementations I've ran into don't allow ], since it doesn't have a prior matched [ to jump to, even if on runtime it wouldn't actually execute.
09:31:18 <fizzie> It's a bit like "if (0) goto non_existing_label;" which I would think would also be invalid C.
09:31:31 <fizzie> ^bf ]
09:31:32 <fungot> Mismatched [].
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10:03:00 <cheater> so what's the shortest terminating b****fuck program?
10:03:46 -!- Flonk has joined.
10:04:24 <olsner> probably an empty one
10:08:18 <cheater> oh
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10:22:18 <ais523> second-shortest is any single command but a loop
10:22:33 <ais523> although arguably , isn't guaranteed to terminate, if you never get any input
10:22:49 <ais523> shortest infinite loop is of course +[] (or -[] in a wrapping interp or one that allows negative numbers)
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10:38:25 <olsner> second largest would be any program with exactly one character :P
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11:53:47 <Sgeo> http://snyfarvc.cc.farmingdale.edu/av/
11:53:58 <Sgeo> Dear Farmingdale IT Department: Fuck you with a rusty knife
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13:02:16 <cheater> Sgeo: what Window versions do you have?
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13:56:20 <SgeoN1> Xom is BORED
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14:09:06 <cheater> nein man, ich will noch nicht gehen
14:22:13 <Vorpal> yay I'm on native ipv6. Well not to IRC but ssh tunnel over native ipv6 to ipv6 tunnel at home
14:31:14 <cheater> nice
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14:36:42 <cheater> so
14:36:49 <cheater> i'm drinking organic cola
14:36:56 <cheater> and it's equally terrible as normal cola
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15:03:47 <alise> I wonder if I should just make a DE-style suite of programs that don't have stupid dependencies...
15:04:12 <alise> So I can live up to pikhq's UI ideal without configuring everything :P
15:06:02 <Vorpal> alise, I'm on native ipv6 atm
15:06:06 <Vorpal> at university
15:06:29 <Vorpal> bbl going home
15:06:32 <alise> Exciting.
15:10:46 <pikhq> alise: Hah.
15:10:46 <pikhq> The ideal is, of course, "I don't *want* the looks to impress me. I want it to work!"
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15:16:25 <alise> pikhq: I'm thinkin' "laid out according to typographical principles, lots of keyboard use, and no UI clutter".
15:16:45 <alise> Also, as a general rule, "use reasonable shit instead of inventing ridiculous settings daemons or depending on other such daemons".
15:17:11 <alise> Oh, and "how about a file manager that has a built in terminal that interacts with the directory listing"?
15:21:37 <alise> Perhaps even "an {IM,IRC} client that doesn't suck" would be nice, if such a thing is even possible.
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15:27:29 <pikhq> alise: Mmmm.
15:32:30 <alise> pikhq: Why did you stop using a tiling WM, btw?
15:32:37 <alise> I guess ratpoison isn't very tiling, actually.
15:33:11 <pikhq> alise: Some programs interact very poorly with not-reparenting WMs.
15:33:17 <pikhq> Among them, anything in WINE.
15:33:32 <alise> Programs ... want ... to be reparented?
15:33:59 <pikhq> Windows programs make really stupid assumptions.
15:34:43 <alise> pikhq: Why are you using WINE for actual-applications, anyway?
15:35:23 <pikhq> alise: I'm too lazy to write a ROM manager for Linux.
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15:35:37 <pikhq> Also, Valve games.
15:35:43 <alise> pikhq: ROM manager -- you mean a filesystem? :P
15:35:50 <alise> Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, I know.
15:36:05 <alise> Valve games want to be reparented?
15:36:18 <pikhq> Steam does.
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15:37:04 <pikhq> Oh, and this isn't relevant *now*, but it was a while back: VMWare *crashes* unless it gets reparented.
15:37:11 <Sgeo_> My school is creepy
15:37:17 <alise> Oh yeah, Steam, the "let's create our own start menu" application.
15:37:23 <pikhq> Yes.
15:37:38 <alise> Why use VMWare?
15:37:57 <pikhq> Work.
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15:40:47 <alise> pikhq: Absolutely requires VMWare as opposed to some other VM?
15:41:28 * alise has finally adjusted to freetype with hinting turned off.
15:41:30 <alise> Well worth it.
15:41:44 <pikhq> alise: Did. I am not currently employed.
15:41:54 <alise> Only with subpixel rendering, though; you really need that 3x horizontal resolution to get the clarity...
15:42:04 <alise> pikhq: Did they just give you VMWare images or something? o_O
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15:42:39 <pikhq> alise: Actually, I was to create some... And then automate VMware.
15:42:49 <alise> /vomit
15:43:02 <pikhq> FTR, I hate VMware.
15:43:23 <alise> You don't say.
15:44:39 <alise> What irritates me is that even the "alternative" DEs, like XFCE and LXDE, still follow the exact same UI paradigms as GNOME and KDE.
15:44:59 <alise> It's not like I want a huge revolution in UI design -- I do, but not on /Linux and X11/ -- I just want something that sucks a teeny weeny bit less.
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15:46:36 <alise> Hi cpressey.
15:47:20 <cpressey> Hi alise
15:51:18 <alise> Oumpeá äx’ääļuktëx.
15:52:39 <alise> We trust you have received the usual lecture from the local System
15:52:40 <alise> Administrator. It usually boils down to these three things:
15:52:40 <alise> #1) Respect the privacy of others.
15:52:40 <alise> #2) Think before you type.
15:52:40 <alise> #3) With great power comes great responsibility.
15:52:41 <alise> lol, sudo updates
15:59:12 <cpressey> Hey, that's like a violation of one of the laws of sane computing, or something
15:59:40 <alise> cpressey: what is?
16:02:37 <Sgeo__> Whee, I'm in Perl class
16:03:08 <alise> Sgeo__: It will teach Perl practices that were considered good around the time of Perl 4, and neglect every modern feature that has made Perl a decent language.
16:03:13 <alise> It will be a horrific abuse of all your principles.
16:03:25 <alise> Please do not treat it as what the Perl community would actually teach themselves.
16:03:44 <alise> Title it "Smalltalk, taught by 12-year-old Java hax0rs" in your mind.
16:05:50 <Sgeo__> Well, at least the syllibus isn't a .doc
16:06:13 <Sgeo__> Although Foxit's plugin thing is terminally broken
16:07:42 <alise> *syllabus
16:07:47 <alise> and use Sumatra
16:11:51 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3oYVV5v51s Windows 95 on a Mac: It makes your monitor float.
16:12:45 <Sgeo__> Someone's about to download Adobe Reader
16:13:11 <Sgeo__> I tried to show them the page, and what you said
16:13:54 <alise> What I said?
16:14:05 <alise> "Leo purred" -- Mac OS 8.1 trying to pronounce "leopard"
16:14:25 <Sgeo__> Yes, I showed em my IRC window and had "and use Sumatra" selected
16:14:57 <alise> Sumatra is a PDF reader. :P
16:15:03 <alise> Oh, right, I see.
16:15:11 <alise> Sheesh, I'm being exposed to the masses!
16:15:24 <alise> I can fix that! Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
16:15:51 <alise> Mac OS 8: RIP Chicago
16:16:58 <alise> Mac OS 8: RIP not having options in the Finder
16:23:18 <fizzie> I use a non-reparenting thing, and haven't really had WINE problems; though only thing I run with WINE is Spotify.
16:23:33 <fizzie> MATLAB is more problematic, though.
16:24:01 <alise> "This page is served from my souped-up Apple Macintosh IIci (littledork) running NetBSD and Apache"
16:24:02 <alise> AWESOME
16:24:09 <Sgeo__> I'm starting to like this professor
16:24:10 <alise> *Apache."
16:24:30 <Sgeo__> She's talking about mailing lists, and how people should try solving their own problems first
16:24:39 <alise> Sgeo__: Hmm.
16:24:45 <alise> She /might/ teach Perl well. But almost certainly not.
16:27:06 <alise> if someone makes an interpreter for Bit-C they can name it as a homage to Ch, a C interpreter
16:27:08 <alise> Bit-Ch
16:27:10 <fizzie> And anything with Java needs a setwmname LG3D trick.
16:27:32 * alise wonders what WM LG3D was originally
16:28:31 <Sgeo__> "Qualities of a good programmer:"
16:28:34 <alise> fizzie: have you got a MacII????
16:28:34 <Sgeo__> *Laziness
16:28:39 <Sgeo__> *Impatience
16:28:41 <Sgeo__> *Hubris
16:28:47 <alise> Sgeo__: that's a larry wall quote
16:29:03 <alise> she might just know Perl. Impressive.
16:31:42 <fizzie> No; I don't have any 68k things.
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16:31:53 <alise> fizzie: Oh. I was going to demand you mail it to me.
16:31:57 <alise> You know, in an envelope.
16:32:18 <alise> fizzie: PPC stuff is just so /boring/, though.
16:32:26 <alise> Running Linux on PPC. Oh, you ARE revolutionary!
16:32:32 <alise> I say no!
16:33:02 <alise> System 6/7 dual-booted with NetBSD? Yes!
16:33:12 <alise> (II since it's the first model supported by NetBSD/mac68k.)
16:34:33 * Sgeo__ blehs at someone playing some 3d game in front of him
16:35:22 <alise> OMG I JUST HAD THE BEST IDEA
16:35:23 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:35:28 <alise> NETBSD ON AN APPLE LISA
16:35:34 <alise> I MEAN YES, OR YES?
16:36:51 <alise> THE ANSWER IS YES
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16:41:15 <Sgeo__> *sigh*
16:41:26 <alise> ?
16:41:28 <Sgeo__> She's rightfully assuming that the students are imbicils
16:41:34 <Sgeo__> Yes, I know I misspelled that
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16:44:44 <Sgeo__> Ok, I like this professor
16:47:27 <alise> -_- @ people selling UPGRADED MacIIs
16:48:54 <alise> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Apple-Mac-Macintosh-LC-II-1992-/110578144146?pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL Expensive, no monitor/keyboard/mouse, system is in German. Sigh.
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16:55:59 <alise> is there a program that enumerates all functions (with pattern-matching, say) of N arguments of M size each?
16:56:15 <alise> e.g. saying "3 arguments of size 2" would produce all 3-adic boolean functions
16:56:45 <Sgeo__> Wouldn't the potential existence of such a function depend on language, or are you talking in an abstract sense, with countably infinite results?
16:57:00 <alise> Uhh...
16:57:17 <alise> I meant a finite output, of course.
16:57:20 <cpressey> Only if N*M is countably infinite?
16:57:28 <alise> As such, the number of functions is always finite.
16:57:32 <Sgeo__> size 2 sounds ill-defined
16:57:33 <cpressey> Er, there should be a ^ in there somewhere
16:57:38 <alise> Sgeo__: no it is not
16:57:48 <alise> it is a set with two distinct elements
16:57:50 <alise> that is, the booleans
16:57:54 <alise> called "2" in set theory
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16:58:35 <alise> For instance, 2^(2^3) = 256, so the set of functions from three booleans to a boolean has 256 elements.
16:58:37 <cpressey> alise: sudo should not be MORALIZING at me goddammit.
16:58:43 <alise> So there are 256 functions from three booleans to a boolean.
16:58:46 <alise> cpressey: :-P
16:59:21 <alise> Sgeo__: Consider that there are obviously 8 triples of three booleans.
16:59:25 <alise> So, each function has 8 possible inputs.
16:59:46 <alise> Order them: (f,f,f), (f,f,t), (f,t,f), (f,t,t), (t,f,f), (t,f,t), (t,t,f), (t,t,t) (like binary counting).
16:59:55 <Sgeo__> Ah
16:59:58 <alise> Now consider an 8-bit binary number; 01010101.
17:00:06 <alise> To get the result for a given tuple, look at its position in the ordering.
17:00:08 * Sgeo__ deafs
17:00:10 <alise> Then look at the digit in the binary number.
17:00:14 <alise> If it's 1, the output is true.
17:00:17 <alise> If it's 0, the output is false.
17:00:22 <alise> Now enumerate all 8-bit binary functions.
17:00:23 <alise> Tada!
17:00:23 <Sgeo__> Maybe I should sit closer to the professor
17:00:29 <Sgeo__> At least until my ears stop acting up
17:00:34 <cpressey> alise: What you describe sounds trivial
17:00:39 <alise> cpressey: Of course it is.
17:00:46 <cpressey> alise: K, just sayin'.
17:00:51 <alise> cpressey: I just want something that does that and outputs it in some sort of pattern-matching format.
17:00:53 <alise> Just for convenience.
17:01:07 <cpressey> Oh, pattern matching. OK
17:01:21 <alise> cpressey: Well, if it could simplify to a set of base functions that'd be cool too. :)
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17:02:06 <Sgeo__> Well, g2g
17:06:50 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
17:08:55 <alise> cpressey: "The Commodore Amiga's graphics chipset could combine three bitmaps according to any of 256 logic functions of three variables." inspired this btw
17:09:11 <alise> I wonder if there's an efficient way in machine code to take a byte and three booleans and perform the respective function
17:09:13 <alise> without hardcoding them all
17:09:46 <cpressey> alise: Probably.
17:09:51 <alise> heh
17:09:52 <cpressey> Can't think of how offhand
17:10:19 <alise> well if you can switch on the contents of the triple, then it's a matter of bit extraction. of course, bit extraction is horrendously slow
17:10:28 <alise> although, actually
17:10:35 <alise> it's just a matter of a right shift and a & 1
17:10:49 <alise> if we order it so that the rightmost bit is for FFF
17:10:53 <alise> then it's x&1
17:10:55 <alise> then if we have FFT
17:10:59 <alise> it's (x>>1)&1
17:11:02 <alise> then if we have FTF
17:11:04 <alise> it's (x>>2)&1
17:11:08 <alise> and so on
17:11:12 <alise> isn't that cool?
17:11:20 <alise> cpressey: although i'm sure there's a more efficient way
17:15:12 <cpressey> alise: That could work. I was thinking something about XOR. Anyway not able to think clearly about it right now. But that capability might explain why there were full-screen implementations of Conway's LIFE for the Amiga that were blazing fast, and where the source code was just a bunch of obscure blitter calls...
17:15:30 <cpressey> Sorry, *Game of Life
17:15:34 <alise> I think it clearly does.
17:15:39 <alise> Hmm, XOR might work...
17:15:42 <alise> This is interesting.
17:16:29 <alise> cpressey: Of course, it has to be bitwise.
17:16:31 <alise> So disregard what I said.
17:16:37 <alise> Hmm.
17:16:44 <alise> #
17:20:52 <cpressey> A co-worker just praised Python's GC for being "so smart" in his internal blog.
17:21:00 <alise> o.o
17:21:03 <alise> Kill him.
17:21:09 <cpressey> It's... reference counting?
17:21:12 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
17:21:24 <alise> With a cycle collector!
17:21:25 <alise> brb
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17:23:18 <Vorpal> alise, I'm here atm, I have a timeframe for starting hypothetical activity of about 1 hour, then will be away partly
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17:36:23 <cpressey> alise: He's a very good developer overall, but I there are a lot of things about him that I'll never understand.
18:01:31 <cpressey> alise: Is David Attenborough one of your National Treasures?
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18:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Hi, everybody!
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18:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I was thinking about Life, and CAs in general, and I wondered if you could have some kind of actual "resource management".
18:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. you can't make gliders without "refining" some kind of base structure, which is then destroyed and cannot be regenerated.
18:46:27 <alise> o_O
18:46:45 <alise> <cpressey> alise: Is David Attenborough one of your National Treasures? ;; You mean of this country?
18:46:47 <alise> Definitely.
18:47:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course!
18:47:27 <Phantom_Hoover> <cue that Street Fighter clip that must accompany those words>
18:49:26 <coppro> haha microsoft is using freetype
18:49:52 <alise> coppro: for what?
18:49:57 <coppro> office 2011
18:50:04 <alise> also, why on earth? even ClearType is better than unpatched freetype
18:50:18 <alise> and patched freetype is heavily patented, Microsoft wouldn't go near that; Apple would assrape them.
18:50:27 <alise> assuming subpixel rendering here
18:50:30 <alise> which I assume Microsoft will do
18:50:40 <coppro> fr Mac
18:50:43 <coppro> *for
18:50:48 <alise> x___X
18:50:56 <alise> But OS X already has an excellent font rendering library.
18:51:03 <coppro> http://i35.tinypic.com/jazx2t.jpg
18:51:24 <alise> coppro: they just took some code, then
18:51:27 <alise> that font rendering is definitely native
18:51:29 <coppro> it's actually a good sign, though :)
18:51:42 <coppro> it's just funny
18:57:05 <alise> :)
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19:29:05 <alise> "The Washington Shakespeare Company (based in Arlington VA) will soon be performing selections from Hamlet and Much Ado About Nothing in Klingon."
19:29:11 <alise> Hamlet in Klingon. In real life.
19:29:14 <alise> brb, plane
19:33:13 <alise> *the original Klingon, mind
19:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Does noöne care about my CA ideas?
19:35:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, I just don't understand them.
19:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the general idea is that to do things, you need to harvest other things.
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19:49:04 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: An elegeant way: ensure all transitions preserve the number of each kind of state (there's a name for this property but I forget it.) An ugly way: keep track of how many of each kind of state you have, and don't allow certain transitions if you don't have enough left. Makes Life, e.g., nondeterministic.
19:49:28 <cpressey> *eleGANT
19:49:34 <alise> EleKant
19:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> (Immanuel's brother)
19:50:01 <alise> eel cunt
19:50:03 <alise> (it had to be done)
19:51:38 -!- jcp has joined.
19:53:39 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Less ugly in one sense but even uglier in another way: ... have certain patterns in the playfield count as "resource providers" and... uggh
19:54:10 <cpressey> Like building factories in a war sim.
19:55:12 * alise continues playing Rogue
19:55:16 <alise> The impossible game...
19:56:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, worse than NH?
19:56:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: At least in the early game, hell yes.
19:56:21 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
19:56:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: `telnet termcast.org`, channel aliserogue, if you want to see me suffer.
19:56:32 <alise> I've just started a new game
19:56:34 <alise> *game.
19:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you get those channels in the first place?
19:57:07 <cpressey> The original Rogue? Yeah that's... almost no fun
19:57:13 <alise> script -f >((echo 'hello USERNAME PASSWORD'; cat) | nc noway.ratry.ru 31337 >/dev/null)
19:57:17 <cpressey> OLDSKOOL.
19:57:18 <alise> cpressey: Oh, it's fun, just horrific.
19:57:43 <cheater-> hello
19:57:49 <cheater-> alise, how come you are home right now?
19:57:50 <nooga> kill E
19:58:18 <alise> cheater-: pay more attention
19:58:28 <cheater-> alise: i was not at the computer for the last month or so
19:58:31 <cheater-> give me an update
19:58:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I have actually easily reached Exp 4 on Level 1 in Rogue before.
19:58:45 <alise> cheater-: I'm out. "Sort of."
19:58:50 <cheater-> very good
19:59:07 <cheater-> what does 'sort of' mean?
19:59:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and by the way, % are downstairs. : is food. Capital letters are monsters.
19:59:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I've played it before.
19:59:29 <alise> There are no upstairs until you get the Amulet; then, there are only upstairs (the same %s).
19:59:30 <alise> Okay.
20:00:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Running away is a very viable option. Always.
20:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "The snake doesn't hit you." Very informative.
20:00:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "You don't hit the <enemy>" is my favourite miss message ever
20:01:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
20:01:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I believe the room I can't seem to get to is filled with monsters.
20:01:50 <alise> Or, rather, was.
20:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Wrong, it seems.
20:02:04 <alise> No, it was.
20:02:06 <alise> They just all flocked out.
20:02:09 <cheater-> alise: ???????????????????????????????????????
20:02:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, and of course, monster difficulty is crazy variable.
20:02:42 <alise> *crazily
20:02:55 <alise> Monsters can be a two-hit kill or a fifteen-hit death.
20:04:16 <alise> Ice monsters: just don't even go ther.
20:04:18 <alise> *there.
20:04:22 <alise> I think they kill you on the first hit, always.
20:05:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Stairs in single-file corridors? Whyever not?
20:05:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Blatant awesome.
20:06:13 <nooga> entertaining
20:06:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Yep, so here we'll just built a network of corridors that lead nowhere. Also, put some stairs in."
20:07:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Yup.
20:07:24 <Phantom_Hoover> That'll teach those meddling <s>kids</s> adventurers!
20:07:32 <alise> Oh yeah, and the game is often unwinnable by virtue of there not being enough food in the dungeon.
20:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I respect that.
20:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> NetHack is far too cowardly to be that malicious.
20:08:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I appear to be fucked.
20:08:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
20:08:32 <alise> Sweet, I fainted thrice in one turn.
20:08:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Bet you wish you had #pray now.
20:09:00 <alise> #eat armour
20:09:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I never got those call messages...
20:09:43 <Phantom_Hoover> s/got/understood.
20:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> s|.|/|
20:10:21 <alise> Tada!
20:10:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What shell are you using?
20:10:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That was a typical game, by the way.
20:10:52 <alise> Bash. It's default.
20:11:41 <nooga> alise killed by an emu
20:12:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah, and your score is gold - 10% if you died rather than quitting.
20:13:28 <alise> *cry*
20:13:33 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:14:30 <zzo38> A program I might write some time later on is TeXnicard, which is a collection of programs that can be used instead of Magic Set Editor, because it has somewhat similar functions. But I have to learn how to write a DVI driver, if I am going to do that.
20:16:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh yeah, and when you use stairs they DISAPPEAR.
20:17:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: b before a in inventory? Why not?
20:17:59 <zzo38> It would consist of these programs, probably: "texnicard" (a set of macros for TeX), "symnicard" (a set of macros for METAFONT to create set symbols), "dvinicard" (a DVI driver that can produce JPG or PNG files, and other things), "picnicard" (a graphical user interface to import pictures and place boxes on the page), "webnicard" which takes text file input and then does preprocessing and chunk tangling and outputs multiple formats (TeX, METAF
20:18:20 <zzo38> ONT, TSV, etc)
20:18:29 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:18:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You now have --More--
20:19:35 <zzo38> In Rogue you only go downstairs, if you find stairs and try to go upstairs, you are blocked by magic
20:19:53 <alise> Aww, nobody is watching.
20:19:55 <alise> zzo38: wrong
20:19:59 <alise> zzo38: you go upstairs after you get the Amulet
20:20:17 <zzo38> Yes, but before you get the Amulet, you are blocked by magic if you try to go upstairs
20:20:46 <alise> Any tips for making the game not impossible?
20:21:32 <zzo38> alise: Maybe modify it? I don't really know?
20:21:39 <zzo38> I think the game works.
20:22:31 <alise> Yes, but it's pain.
20:27:02 -!- sergio__ has joined.
20:27:16 <sergio__> salve
20:28:11 <sergio__> posso scaricare dei film
20:29:17 <zzo38> alise: Then try one of my simple roguelike games, if you can run them in your computer (there is certainly a way, probably multiple ways, depending on operating system)
20:29:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Vonlebio.
20:29:24 <Vonlebio> sergio__, hello!
20:29:33 <alise> zzo38: I use Linux. Do they work in WINE?
20:29:46 * Vonlebio realises that he has forgotten any vaguely conversational Latin he knew
20:29:48 <zzo38> alise: They are DOS programs. Try WINE see if they work.
20:30:00 <zzo38> You might also get them to work in DOSBOX or FreeBASIC.
20:30:02 <alise> zzo38: Can you link me up?
20:30:26 <alise> Vonlebio: wait, that's latin?
20:30:31 <Vonlebio> It is not.
20:30:33 * alise didn't even pay any attention
20:30:34 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/RL/KING.ZIP
20:30:36 <alise> oh :P
20:30:37 <Vonlebio> But it is foreign.
20:30:56 <alise> zzo38: zipbomb or not?
20:31:06 <Vonlebio> Foreign and Latin go rather well together.
20:31:09 <zzo38> alise: Yes it is zipbomb
20:31:17 <zzo38> If the extension is ZIP, assume that it might be zipbomb.
20:31:46 <zzo38> If the extension is TAR, it should have its own directory structure built-in, so you don't need to create a directory structure yourself.
20:31:49 <alise> zzo38: Does it have built-in help?
20:32:00 <zzo38> For ZIP you should create directory structures yourself
20:32:04 <alise> cpressey: How did you think XOR might help evaluate the boolean functions?
20:32:19 <zzo38> alise: Yes, KING does, 100LEVEL has limited help (you are supposed to figure out things yourself more).
20:32:30 <zzo38> But KING game has more detailed instructions.
20:32:31 <alise> zzo38: All I want are the basic controls.
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20:33:23 <Vonlebio> sergio__, sprechen du Englisch?
20:33:31 <zzo38> KING has very few basic controls, found on the second page of the built-in instructions.
20:34:00 <alise> Vonlebio: We could try Pulp Fiction...
20:34:07 <Vonlebio> alise, ...?
20:34:08 <alise> sergio__: ENGLISH, MOTHERFUCKER! DO YOU SPEAK IT?
20:34:13 <Vonlebio> Ah.
20:34:15 <alise> ...but that might scare him away.
20:34:43 <zzo38> For 100LEVEL, you are meant to figure out the controls yourself, but here are some hints: They are case insensitive. All functions other than save/quit are accessible using the letter keys. Many functions are accessible using other keys as well (turn NumLock on), but only printable ASCII keys and enter.
20:34:44 <alise> Somehow I suspect not.
20:34:55 <alise> zzo38: /figure out the keys yourself/? Come on.
20:34:59 <alise> Also, I don't have a number pad. Sorry.
20:35:18 <zzo38> alise: Both games are playable without a number pad.
20:35:24 -!- sergio__ has quit (Quit: Sto andando via).
20:35:31 <Vonlebio> Anyone who expects you to divine key bindings deserves to be beaten about the head with a kitten.
20:35:36 <alise> zzo38: I can use a numberpad with Fn+Shift+. Is that okay?
20:35:42 <alise> I mean, is numberpad usage common?
20:35:43 <Vonlebio> "Sto andando via"
20:35:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:35:50 <alise> zzo38: Also, surely the keybindings are configurable?
20:36:05 <alise> Otherwise if someone doesn't like them how can they change them?
20:36:29 <zzo38> alise: No, sorry they aren't. They are simple games that I haven't put in all those extra configuration option. However, if you have a compiler you can change and recompile the program.
20:37:18 <alise> 16% [=====> ] 438,557 2.61K/s eta 16m 14s
20:37:20 <alise> How ridiculously slow.
20:37:35 <Vonlebio> What bigness?
20:37:45 <zzo38> For 100LEVEL part of the challenge of the game is figuring out what you can do! (All functions are usable using letter keys, that is a big hint.)
20:37:58 <zzo38> (And all commands in 100LEVEL are case-insensitive, that is another good hint.)
20:38:23 -!- augur has joined.
20:38:36 <Vonlebio> zzo38, s/challenge/pointless annoyance/, then.
20:38:52 <alise> zzo38: I thought you said it was impossible to play without a number pad.
20:38:57 <alise> Numbers aren't letters.
20:39:09 <zzo38> alise: I didn't say it was impossible to play without a number pad.
20:39:24 <alise> oh!
20:39:26 <alise> <zzo38> alise: Both games are playable without a number pad.
20:39:27 <alise> I thought you said unplayable
20:39:36 <alise> so numpad keys are reproduced as letters elsewhere, gotcha
20:39:41 <zzo38> I said that the number pad are alternate keybindings for some of the functions, all of which can be accessed without the number pad.
20:39:51 <zzo38> alise: Yes.
20:40:33 <zzo38> (You might be able to guess which letters and number correspond to each other before even playing the game, possibly)
20:41:43 <zzo38> These games fall into the category of simple roguelikes, which means they aren't as complex and generally don't have as much configuration or other features of the complex roguelike games.
20:42:04 <alise> zzo38: It's written in QBasic, right?
20:42:10 <zzo38> (I have ideas for complex roguelike games too, and if I ever invent them, they will definitely have configurable keybindings.)
20:42:19 <zzo38> alise: Yes, both games are written in QBASIC.
20:43:17 <Vonlebio> zzo38, did you write QBASIC yourself?
20:43:32 <alise> [ehird@dinky 100level]$ fbc -lang qb 100LEVEL.BAS -o 100level
20:43:33 <alise> ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.5.1//libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc
20:43:34 <alise> ld: cannot find -lgcc
20:43:34 <alise> Hum...
20:43:41 <zzo38> FreeBASIC should be able to compile them as well, but you might have to add a few #lang and #define lines to the beginning, and for KING probably change screen modes
20:44:03 <zzo38> 100level should work with the command-line you gave, though.
20:44:42 <zzo38> I don't know what is going wrong there... with the compiler.....
20:46:28 <alise> zzo38: 64-bit issues
20:46:30 <alise> trying to fix them now
20:49:06 <zzo38> I found another issue having to do with compiling 100LEVEL with FreeBASIC: Line 267 says PRINT TAB(80); however that command doesn't seem to clear the line in FreeBASIC. Try this instead, this might work: PRINT SPACE$(80-POS(0));
20:49:54 <alise> So it is textual, then, rather than tiles.
20:49:56 <zzo38> (You could also redefine TAB using the #define command)
20:49:58 <zzo38> alise: Yes.
20:50:55 <alise> LOCATE 25, 1: PRINT "Dir?"; TAB(80);^M
20:50:56 <alise> this too
20:50:59 <zzo38> Most games I design use ASCII grid for tiles. Some more complex games I have created, use graphics either because they are not tiled (but use continuous movement), or because there can be multiple things on a square at once (or other tile things)
20:51:14 <Vonlebio> Does anyone here actually know what the hell the scroll lock does?
20:51:24 <alise> Yes.
20:51:31 <alise> Nothing. On older OSes, something.
20:51:32 <alise> That something is "stop scrolling".
20:51:39 <zzo38> alise: Try this see if this works: #define TAB(_1) SPACE$((_1)-POS(0))
20:51:41 <alise> That is, when new output appears, do not scroll down to see it.
20:51:53 <alise> zzo38: I just replaced them instead.
20:52:08 <alise> Hit: 16/ 16 Mag: 10/ 10 G/E: 0/ 0 Lv: 0 Web: 5 ^ ----- Hit: 16/ 16 Mag: 10/ 10 G/E: 0/ 0 Lv: 0 Web: 5 ^ -----
20:52:27 <zzo38> Vonlebio: In Microsoft Excel (and possibly OpenOffice), scroll lock makes the arrow keys scroll the view.
20:52:32 <alise> Is it meant to display twice, zzo38?
20:52:51 <zzo38> alise: No. What is your terminal size? Make sure it is 80x25
20:52:53 <alise> zzo38: It appears to be continu-- ah. It's 80x25, isn't it?
20:52:54 <alise> Not 80x24.
20:53:05 <alise> Standard Unix terminals are 80x24, leading to my confusion.
20:53:15 <zzo38> You need to change it to 80x25 then.
20:53:38 <alise> zzo38: This is very polished.
20:53:56 <pikhq> I blame IBM.
20:54:11 <alise> Damn Os.
20:54:52 <alise> zzo38: I lost. Uh, I did nothing wrong.
20:55:18 <alise> This is not my favourite game.
20:55:19 <zzo38> alise: You probably did do something wrong if you lost. Try a different game mode and/or difficulty level.
20:55:34 <alise> I'm gonna try KING first.
20:56:09 <zzo38> alise: OK. To use it in FreeBASIC, you might have to tell it to change the screen mode to a graphical mode, since it uses IBM extended ASCII and colors.
20:56:25 <alise> KING.BAS(322) error 10: Expected '='
20:56:27 <alise> SOUND 0, 0
20:56:27 <alise> ^
20:56:27 <alise> KING.BAS(323) error 10: Expected '=', found 'mbl64t120o3ml'
20:56:27 <alise> PLAY "mbl64t120o3ml" + s$
20:56:27 <alise> ^
20:56:30 <alise> Do I need to load some library?
20:56:43 <alise> Also, sorry; I'm not sure how to tell FreeBASIC to use graphical mode.
20:57:05 <zzo38> alise: Just turn off sound and music, define SUB SOUND(x,y) and SUB PLAY (a$) to do nothing.
20:57:19 <alise> Aww, but I /like/ sound and music.
20:57:31 <alise> It'll work in DOSBox, yes?
20:57:43 <zzo38> Yes it will work in DOSBox
20:58:45 <zzo38> (To tell FreeBASIC to use graphical mode: Enter "SCREEN 9" at the beginning of the program)
20:59:43 <alise> Okay, collect stones. Gotcha.
21:01:00 <alise> I5 pass, P/ quaff, ,- previous potion, .+ is next potion, O* is eat, T0 is throw stone, ;<ENTER> goes down if you have the key, S is toggle sound, ? views instructions
21:01:02 <alise> noted
21:01:29 <zzo38> Yes
21:01:38 <alise> zzo38: I like the graphics.
21:02:02 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:02:17 <alise> Eek! I'm about to die.
21:02:20 <alise> Time to try a potion.
21:02:48 -!- Killerkid has joined.
21:03:01 <alise> zzo38: How many enemies /are/ there?!
21:03:24 <zzo38> There are no experience points in KING or in 100LEVEL. If you beat someone the only things you can get are possibly one item, and that they can't hit you anymore (because they are dead).
21:03:44 <alise> No extra HP, ever?
21:03:57 <zzo38> alise: There are less enemies in earlier level and in easier difficulty mode.
21:04:06 <zzo38> Actually, you can get extra HP in some circumstances.
21:04:31 <zzo38> Not from experience, though. Some potions will give you extra max HP and sometimes going to the next dungeon level increases your max HP.
21:04:36 <alise> I die :)
21:05:41 <alise> 100LEVEL isn't very good on a slow machine
21:05:42 * alise plays king instead
21:05:44 <alise> (dosbox is slow, that is)
21:06:03 <zzo38> You have to be careful in these games! You can't just beat up everyone and expect to win that way.
21:06:42 <alise> I was /avoiding/ beating up everyone.
21:06:46 <alise> Then I got cornered by 'em. :)
21:06:52 <alise> I'm not bad at NetHack, mind you.
21:06:55 <zzo38> You can't avoid beating up everyone all the time either.
21:07:04 <alise> KING is quite an unconventional Roguelike. I like it.
21:07:15 <zzo38> You have to decide due to circumstance.
21:07:46 <zzo38> Yes, KING is quite unconventional, other people say that too, and also like it for that reason.
21:09:17 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:10:12 -!- Killerkid has joined.
21:11:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:11:20 <alise> zzo38: You're evil. I have to walk through fire to get out of this section.
21:11:38 <Vonlebio> FreeSpace 2 is driving me mad...
21:12:23 <zzo38> alise: Yes, sometimes you do. But you can still heal. And there is fire only because the random number generator generated the numbers to put fire there, not because I deliberately designed it so that you are surrounded by fire all the time....
21:13:00 <alise> :-)
21:13:25 <alise> zzo38: Is it intentional that it never seems necessary to quaff a potion?
21:14:02 <zzo38> alise: Not quite. In easy modes it is less necessary, but you can still use them to your advantage if you figure out how.
21:14:18 <alise> Oh, you /lose/ health by waiting.
21:14:20 <alise> Not regain it.
21:14:23 <alise> I disliketh that.
21:14:39 <zzo38> You don't /lose/ health by waiting
21:15:31 <zzo38> Maybe if you have not enough satiation, or you are poison or someone is hitting you, you might lose health by waiting. But normally you earn health by waiting.
21:15:34 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:15:51 <alise> zzo38: o_O
21:15:55 <alise> Maybe I was standing on fire.
21:15:59 <zzo38> Yes.
21:16:03 <alise> Oh well, I died.
21:16:08 <alise> Did a lot better than last time though.
21:16:28 -!- augur has joined.
21:16:50 <zzo38> That happens to nearly everyone who plays this game.
21:17:15 <alise> Yep.
21:18:07 <alise> zzo38: Wow, I can't believe it's only ~828 lines (disregarding the comment header).
21:21:28 <Vonlebio> zzo38, what does that thing about "to" on your WP page mean?
21:21:37 <Vonlebio> "This user knows that 'to' is pronounced /tʊ/, not /a/."
21:22:16 <zzo38> Vonlebio: It means that the word "to" should be pronounced properly instead of shortening it so that it is like "a" which is not like "to" at all.
21:22:31 * Vonlebio has never noticed this.
21:22:48 <Vonlebio> "Go a the restaurant."
21:22:56 <Vonlebio> Sounds completely alien to me.
21:24:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:24:49 <Vonlebio> zzo38, approximately where are you?
21:25:15 <zzo38> Vonlebio: British Columbia, Canada.
21:25:35 <zzo38> (I have never heard of things like "Go a the restaurant", either.
21:25:46 <Vonlebio> zzo38, ah. So what example would you give?
21:26:35 <Vonlebio> "I wanna do something"?
21:26:46 <zzo38> I don't have any example (I can't think of any right now), but I have heard it rarely before, it is not common. But I put it there anyways, when searching through list of userboxes I decided to put that one on.
21:26:55 <zzo38> Some of the userboxes are I created them myself.
21:29:59 <zzo38> (For example, I couldn't find any about Plain TeX or about CWEB.)
21:30:38 <zzo38> (Some of them have changed since I put them there, such as the simplified Chinese didn't mention communists before, and the one about electric sheep used to be different.)
21:31:26 <alise> Communists: dey tak oor jorbs!
21:32:51 <Vonlebio> alise, dey rooin owr speling!
21:33:08 <alise> Please tell me you got the joke >.>
21:33:11 <zzo38> alise: Maybe, but the problem with simplified Chinese is itself, not the communists. Communists did make simplified Chinese, of course, but that isn't that makes it so bad. If Hitler played this game, does that make this game bad?
21:33:19 <Vonlebio> alise, ahhh....
21:33:38 <Vonlebio> zzo38, naturally.
21:33:47 <Vonlebio> It's a well-known debating technique.
21:34:16 <pikhq> Simplified Chinese just sucks aesthetically and is harder to remember than traditional.
21:34:29 <zzo38> pikhq: I agree with that.
21:34:44 <Vonlebio> pikhq, is it harder to write?
21:34:47 <zzo38> Simplified Chinese is more difficult to understand than traditional Chinese.
21:34:58 <pikhq> Vonlebio: It's quicker to write, but harder to learn.
21:34:59 <Vonlebio> This is a very valid concern for me, since I can barely write English legibly.
21:35:24 <Vonlebio> Although my penmanship when writing backwards is rather better.
21:35:32 * alise ponders things
21:35:35 <Vonlebio> And when writing Tengwar. But I digress.
21:36:07 * alise wonders what language to write a little roguelike in
21:36:19 <Vonlebio> Flemish!
21:36:19 <pikhq> The thing is, traditional Chinese is composed of other characters. Simplified Chinese then takes these composed characters and applies shorthand to it, making it so that the structure is non-obvious unless you already *know* traditional Chinese quite well.
21:36:27 <alise> <pikhq> HASKEL
21:37:35 * Vonlebio still thinks that "Haskell" is a brilliant first name.
21:37:47 <Vonlebio> pikhq, yes, I see.
21:37:52 -!- jcp has changed nick to javawizard.
21:38:21 -!- javawizard has changed nick to jcp.
21:38:28 <zzo38> alise: You can use QBASIC like I did if you want, in my opinion it works well for writing small simple games. But C is also good, and Enhanced CWEB, you can also use Perl or Ruby or Python or whatever, and there are other choices, too.....
21:38:32 <pikhq> And the ability to write them quickly is not all that essential now, what with computers doing the work for you.
21:38:50 <Vonlebio> pikhq, but what do you do when you need to write stuff quickly!
21:39:12 -!- jcp has changed nick to javawizard2539.
21:39:16 <pikhq> Vonlebio: If you're experienced with traditional Chinese characters, you can write them very quickly.
21:39:33 <alise> zzo38: QBASIC is ... not the greatest thing on anything that isn't Windows.
21:39:34 <Vonlebio> pikhq, but what if you have awful handwriting?
21:39:41 <pikhq> Believe me, you won't.
21:39:44 <Vonlebio> We're a repressed minority!
21:39:45 -!- javawizard2539 has changed nick to jcp.
21:40:01 <alise> Typing Chinese is a bitch, of course.
21:40:04 * pikhq has absolutely horrifying English handwriting, and actually rather good Japanese handwriting for the most part
21:40:09 <alise> I haven't ever done it and I still know it's a bitch.
21:40:11 <zzo38> alise: Well, yes. (Also DOS, of course.) Use the programming language you prefer
21:40:18 <pikhq> alise: Well, it depends. There's a few different ways of typing it.
21:40:32 <Vonlebio> pikhq, yeah, same with me, but with backwards English and Tengwar (don't ask).
21:40:34 <zzo38> pikhq: I can write in Japanese, in my opinion my Japanese writing is not that bad
21:41:09 <pikhq> alise: Character structure based methods (you type a few components of the character) or phonetic methods (you type in a phoneticisation of a Chinese language and out comes Written Chinese)
21:41:32 <pikhq> alise: And of the phonetic methods, you get either Romanisation or Bopomofo.
21:41:41 <alise> Bop a mo'fo'
21:41:47 <alise> Gangsta romanisation in da haus
21:41:48 <zzo38> Although when writing Japanese texts out by hand, I usually use katakana since I can write it more easily, but I sometimes use hiragana or kanji, too, sometimes.
21:42:19 <pikhq> zzo38: I use just normal Japanese. Because dammit, I can write it reasonably fast.
21:42:42 <pikhq> Well, except when I feel like using uncommonly used kanji...
21:42:47 <zzo38> pikhq: What about Chinese character with similar pronounce?
21:43:08 <pikhq> zzo38: Like in Japanese, one then selects the specific character or characters from the IME menu.
21:43:13 <zzo38> pikhq: When typing on computer I use hiragana and katakana and kanji, but when writing by hand I find it easier to just write mostly in katakana.
21:43:35 <zzo38> pikhq: O, OK. So you use menu like that
21:43:47 <pikhq> And if writing out the phoneticisation by hand, well. You make damned sure to not be ambiguous.
21:44:14 <pikhq> (though why you would do this except as a gloss is beyond me)
21:44:31 <pikhq> (well, gloss *and* usage in foreign-language text)
21:45:17 <alise> i need a one-word synonym of hack in the sense of literary hack
21:45:18 <alise> GOGOGO
21:45:25 <zzo38> When writing in Japanese, you can add furigana texts to kanji sometimes, it makes it easier to pronounce the kanji.
21:45:41 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, that's a gloss.
21:45:56 <zzo38> pikhq: OK
21:46:05 <pikhq> As far as I'm aware, it's not commonly done in Chinese, though.
21:46:31 <cpressey> Simplified Flemish
21:46:42 <pikhq> Probably having something to do with it being a hell of a lot easier to remember the pronunciations in Chinese languages.
21:46:54 <pikhq> (in general, 1 reading per character.)
21:46:59 <alise> Flemish is just the best language
21:47:06 <cpressey> zzo38: At a guess, how many games have you written?
21:47:07 <zzo38> pikhq: I think you are right, but due to how Chinese language works, there are reasons why it is not commonly done in Chinese, like that. And I think you are right about that too, because each character is pronounced only one way in Chinese.
21:47:31 <alise> zzo38: Oh, another issue of FreeBASIC is that it's 32-bit only.
21:47:34 <zzo38> cpressey: Maybe twenty games.....
21:48:06 <pikhq> There's also the thing about it being several related languages which have the same written form.
21:48:25 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes.
21:48:27 <pikhq> (said written form being the vernacular form of *one* of these languages. Urgh.)
21:50:44 <cpressey> zzo38: That's decent. I know I've written at least two. Most others were incomplete or just ideas. Or too embarrasing to admit.
21:50:49 <zzo38> If you want a longer game I have created, which is pre-made rather than a roguelike game, try Super ASCII MZX Town series.
21:50:56 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXII.ZIP
21:51:05 <zzo38> Sorry
21:51:05 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP
21:51:23 <zzo38> You need MegaZeux to run this game ASCMZXTO
21:52:31 <zzo38> Find MegaZeux at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/ or http://vault.digitalmzx.net/ (the first link is recommended since it contains some fixed features and stuff, but you have to compile it yourself it you aren't on Win32)
21:53:24 <cpressey> Megazeux is written in Forth? Interesting.
21:53:42 <zzo38> cpressey: No, MegaZeux is written in C.
21:53:57 <zzo38> But it includes a Forth interpreter, which I have added.
21:54:00 <cpressey> zzo38: OK, *you* have extended it with Forth?
21:54:04 <cpressey> zzo38: Ah right.
21:54:05 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes.
21:54:57 <cpressey> zzo38: Will it "just build" on Linux?
21:55:03 <zzo38> (Only the first URL to find MegaZeux is the version that includes Forth and other new features. However, Part I of the Super ASCII MZX Town! series works on both versions of MegaZeux. Part II requires my extended version and doesn't work with mainstream MegaZeux.)
21:55:25 <zzo38> cpressey: I'm not sure, you might have to run the configure script, and then it should just build, if you have SDL.
21:55:44 <cpressey> OK, I'm pretty sure I got SDL at some point for something.
21:55:50 <pikhq> Vonlebio: BTW, if you *really* wanted to write fast while using a Chinese script, you'd just learn grass script.
21:56:01 <pikhq> Unfortunately, it's obnoxiously hard to read.
21:56:34 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I know it is hard to read. In Japanese shogi game, I think the promoted side of pieces is written using grass script.
21:56:48 <pikhq> zzo38: To varying extents.
21:57:07 * pikhq just writes in semi-cursive script and calls it a day
21:57:26 <zzo38> And I think the unpromoted side of shogi pieces is semi-cursive kanji script.
21:57:37 <pikhq> Generally, yes.
21:58:27 <zzo38> cpressey: Did the program build for you? (You need megazeux_src.zip and then build it)
21:59:25 <Vonlebio> Zuu
21:59:39 <Zuu> yes?...
21:59:47 <Vonlebio> zzo38, what's MegaZeux?
21:59:49 <cpressey> zzo38: Won't be able to try it for a while.
21:59:55 <Vonlebio> Zuu, tab completion misfire.
22:00:15 <Zuu> ah, no worries.. :)
22:00:38 <zzo38> Vonlebio: It is a game creation system, originally designed for DOS, by Gregory Janson. But these days it is not DOS anymore, and many people are changing MegaZeux, including myself.
22:03:08 <zzo38> I didn't count how many games I have written, but I have written a lot.
22:03:58 <Vonlebio> I can't write games, since it involves UIs. Which I hate.
22:05:15 <zzo38> Do you know, there are a few problems I have with module music formats that MegaZeux uses. One problem is lack of macros and other programming features like that, another problem is that only twelve-tone equal temperament is usable, so I can't use just intonation, or Bohlen-Pierce, or anything else.
22:05:19 <Vonlebio> zzo38, if you have a userbox stating yourself to be asexual, is it really necessary to also declare yourself single?
22:05:46 <zzo38> Vonlebio: Well, I just did, anyways. (If you don't like it, change it! It is a wiki and anyone can change things to improve it)
22:06:07 <Vonlebio> zzo38, no. User space is yours, at least in my opinion.
22:06:31 <zzo38> OK
22:07:37 * Vonlebio is surprised that the punctuation-in-quote-marks rule is American.
22:08:03 <Vonlebio> That kind of rule tends to be in British English and removed from American...
22:09:49 <zzo38> Vonlebio: I use logical quotation marks, also called "hacker grammar", and also generally closer to British punctuation, also. That means if you are quoting something else, inside of another sentence, put the . outside the quotation mark.
22:10:48 <Vonlebio> Yes, that's what I follow.
22:11:25 <zzo38> Something you might be interested to know (?): In MegaZeux Forth, there is a command CRASHMZX that does nothing normally, but if compiled in debug mode it causes a deliberate segmentation fault.
22:12:07 <Vonlebio> The most ludicrous instance of the other form I have seen was in OSDI, where Tanenbaum says something like "To copy a file, type "cp."" and then pontificated for about a paragraph on how silly it was.
22:12:09 <zzo38> It seems strange, but actually I have found CRASHMZX useful when debugging some features in MegaZeux.
22:13:30 <zzo38> Vonlebio: Another rule I use is that a case-sensitive word at the beginning of a sentence that must be lowercase, will be remained lowercase insteado of being capitalized. However I might also try to rearrange the words so that a case-sensitive word does not come at the beginning of the sentence.
22:14:38 <cheater-> alise
22:14:46 <cheater-> can you answer my question please.
22:15:24 <Vonlebio> cheater-, he got discharged or somesuch.
22:16:59 <cheater-> ok
22:17:00 <zzo38> Do anyone here know how to make a DVI driver?
22:17:04 <cheater-> i am very happy
22:17:14 <Vonlebio> zzo38, driver?
22:17:22 <Vonlebio> For the TeX rendery things?
22:18:11 <zzo38> Vonlebio: Yes. If I write a DVI driver then I can write TeXnicard. (TeXnicard is meant to be a replacement for Magic Set Editor. I don't like all the features of Magic Set Editor, so if I write TeXnicard it can be better)
22:19:59 <zzo38> TeXnicard, in my current idea, would consist of a group of related programs: "texnicard", "symnicard", "picnicard", "dvinicard", "webnicard".
22:21:12 <zzo38> Do you like this idea? What is your opinion? Have you ever used Magic Set Editor?
22:22:05 <alise> Sure. No.
22:23:21 <pikhq> zzo38: Replacing MSE? Awesome.
22:23:25 <pikhq> MSE is rather annoying.
22:23:39 * coppro concurs, and he works on it!
22:23:41 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:23:49 <pikhq> Especially given that the Linux port *doesn't even work*.
22:23:51 <coppro> (well, more like has worked. I haven't touched it in months)
22:23:54 <coppro> pikhq: my fault
22:24:02 <coppro> apologies
22:24:07 <pikhq> coppro: I can blame *you*!
22:24:14 <coppro> I'm /really/ bad at packaging Linux software, I've leared
22:24:16 <coppro> *learned
22:24:16 <pikhq> BTW, the last version came out early last year.
22:24:19 <coppro> yes
22:24:20 <coppro> I know that
22:24:31 <ais523> pikhq: there's a Linux port of MSE?
22:24:32 -!- Flonk has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:24:36 <pikhq> ais523: Yes.
22:24:40 <coppro> the release system works something like this:
22:24:46 <coppro> a) Twan decides he wants to release
22:24:47 <ais523> oh, I translated that in my head as "Microsoft Security Essentials"
22:24:47 <pikhq> It's a wxWidgets program...
22:24:49 <coppro> b) Twan releases
22:24:50 <ais523> no wonder I was surprised
22:24:50 <zzo38> If I write TeXnicard, it will work on many systems. Because, I plan to use the programming languages: Enhanced CWEB, TeX, METAFONT, Forth.
22:25:03 <coppro> c) I run around in circles because I just found out, and ship a shoddy Linux version
22:25:18 <ais523> we so need Microsoft to make an antivirus for Linux
22:25:18 <pikhq> coppro: *groan*
22:25:20 <coppro> zzo38: I already smell significant font troubles
22:25:23 <ais523> in... an attempt to make it look virusridden?
22:25:42 <zzo38> That is, that "texnicard" would be a macro package written in TeX, "symnicard" a macro package written in METAFONT, and the other three in Enhanced CWEB.
22:25:54 <coppro> pikhq: not to mention that there are many bugs in the Linux version, including wonderful wonderful crashes that avoid my every attempt to detect
22:26:08 <coppro> (I've tried valgrind, watchpoints, everything, and yet somehow memory still gets corrupted)
22:26:14 <zzo38> coppro: I can use a program that converts TrueType fonts to METAFONT, which I have found. I can use that initially to convert the MSE fonts, until I get a better way
22:26:22 <coppro> zzo38: ah
22:26:49 <pikhq> coppro: Lets see if I can find some of the patches I made to get it *build*.
22:26:54 <pikhq> (not work, just *build*)
22:27:15 <coppro> pikhq: I've fixed a number of issues from the last shipped version
22:27:37 <pikhq> Okay, then I'll try the SVN.
22:27:45 <coppro> you'll probably still have issues, just less of them
22:27:58 <zzo38> The program "picnicard" however, is intended to be a graphical interface for importing pictures for card art and card templates, and for placing boxes on the page. So it might not work quite as cross-platform as the others, but the system can work without it if you enter the box coordinates manually.
22:27:59 <coppro> I wish I had the time/drive to one day just rip out autoconf
22:28:43 <coppro> it's a mess, because a) I don't understand it b) it's autoconf
22:28:45 <zzo38> Unlike MSE, though, you would not use the GUI to write text on the cards, and generate packs, and stuff like that, all of that would be done in plain text files, and using command-line tools.
22:29:12 <pikhq> coppro: Okay. Lemme finish some stuff and I'll see what I can do about that build system.
22:29:16 <coppro> zzo38: MSE can be interacted with on the command line; there is not a full suite of tools but the architecture would allow for it
22:29:18 <zzo38> So, it is sort of reverse of MSE. Because in MSE you must enter box coordinates manually but you create cards using GUI. TeXnicard is the other way around.
22:29:30 <pikhq> First failure: you have configure in version control.
22:29:54 <coppro> pikhq: I thought that was the norm?
22:30:18 <pikhq> No. It breaks shit.
22:30:20 <pikhq> Don't do it.
22:30:21 <coppro> ok
22:30:26 <zzo38> coppro: Yes I know MSE has command-line mode, and that it isn't very good. That is one reason for why I want to invent TeXnicard.
22:30:32 <pikhq> Second failure: USE PKGCONFIG
22:30:35 <pikhq> OR ELSE
22:30:46 <cpressey> It would be really cool if autoconf/configure could work like cog does.
22:30:52 <pikhq> cog?
22:31:08 <coppro> pikhq: seriously, please don't tell me this advice. I'll rip autoconf out before I actually fix it
22:31:18 <cpressey> pikhq: http://nedbatchelder.com/code/cog/
22:31:34 <pikhq> coppro: I'm liable to fix it myself.
22:31:38 <pikhq> # This file is generated by MakeAM.sh. DO NOT EDIT!
22:31:39 * pikhq sobs
22:31:46 * pikhq sobs so much
22:31:49 <cpressey> I dunno, maybe it wouldn't make it suck that much less.
22:31:51 * coppro hugs pikhq
22:31:54 * coppro sobs more
22:31:58 <zzo38> Instead of autoconf and make and those things, I think the program CSPIDER can work better, in my opinion (I have used it and it does work much more cleanly)
22:32:05 <alise> is there any easy way to insert the cp437 chars in DOS?
22:32:06 <alise> like in qbasic
22:32:06 <pikhq> On the bright side, it's not recursive make.
22:32:12 <alise> can i press something to insert the little smiley (\1)
22:32:24 <zzo38> alise: Press CTRL+A
22:32:28 <zzo38> Or ALT+numpad1
22:32:34 <coppro> pikhq: please don't look at the hacks I had to include to use a precompiled header
22:32:38 <zzo38> But the command-prompt will display ^A
22:32:39 <coppro> you might explode
22:32:49 <pikhq> coppro: No. Precompiled. Headers.
22:32:51 <zzo38> But if you type ECHO and CTRL+A it will display the smiley face
22:32:55 <pikhq> That is a broken broken broken feature.
22:33:08 <coppro> pikhq: in autoconf or generally?
22:33:11 <pikhq> Generally.
22:33:15 <coppro> really?
22:33:20 <coppro> (btw they're off by default)
22:33:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:33:38 <Vonlebio> Precompiled headers?
22:33:55 <coppro> how are they broken?
22:34:05 <zzo38> CSPIDER was designed to fix all these problems with makefiles and autoconf. (CSPIDER is the third program of Enhanced CWEB, the other two being CTANGLE and CWEAVE.) (And all three take the same input file format.)
22:34:18 <pikhq> They just plain don't work.
22:34:28 <alise> Aww, are we having a hug-sob orgy?
22:34:31 <alise> Uh, in the past, that is.
22:34:31 <Vonlebio> zzo38, are those your names for things?
22:34:41 <coppro> pikhq: well, we can have this discussion later
22:34:43 <alise> <zzo38> alise: Press CTRL+A
22:34:43 <alise> <zzo38> Or ALT+numpad1 ;; in QBasic
22:35:02 <zzo38> Vonlebio: CTANGLE and CWEAVE are part of the original CWEB, I made Enhanced CWEB, which improves CTANGLE and CWEAVE, and I have added CSPIDER.
22:35:20 <zzo38> alise: O, in QBASIC? Use CHR$(1)
22:35:20 <alise> brb
22:35:26 <alise> zzo38: but i mean to insert it direclt
22:35:29 <alise> directly
22:35:31 <zzo38> Or push CTRL+P CTRL+A to include it directly in source code.
22:36:11 <pikhq> coppro: So. Let me finish some stuff up and then I will rewrite the build system. It should be understandable after that.
22:36:13 <zzo38> But I do not recommend inserting it directly.
22:36:25 <coppro> pikhq: I would appreciate that very very very much
22:36:32 <coppro> it might reinvigorate my desire to work on MSE
22:36:53 <coppro> btw, my horrible shell script of an installer should be shot, I know
22:37:07 <pikhq> Yes. Just use a tarball.
22:37:23 <pikhq> (as autotools will make)
22:37:25 <cpressey> CFOLD, CSTAPLE, CMUTILATE
22:37:28 <pikhq> (make dist, IIRC)
22:37:55 <coppro> pikhq: I would be much obliged if the rewrite isn't autotools-based
22:38:34 <pikhq> coppro: Sorry, but almost everything else sucks more. And this is simple enough that autotools will be clean and (dare I say it) sexy.
22:38:36 <Vorpal> I should start using binary prefixes for other things than bytes. Like kibimeter (kim?)
22:38:49 <coppro> pikhq: fine
22:39:01 <coppro> oh right, I just remembered
22:39:11 <coppro> it won't compile right now becasue of some dumb 'upgrades' to wxWidgets
22:39:53 <zzo38> If I learn how to write DVI driver, and other stuff, I can invent TeXnicard, and then I will use TeXnicard instead of MSE. Because TeXnicard much more better ideas!
22:40:06 <coppro> I'll fix those and commit
22:42:40 -!- augur has joined.
22:44:06 <zzo38> cpressey: What are CFOLD, CSTAPLE, CMUTILATE?
22:44:44 <cpressey> zzo38: THINGS OF BEAUTY
22:44:51 <coppro> pikhq: done
22:45:39 <zzo38> cpressey: That doesn't explain it. Can you explain better, and more specifically what it is and so on, instead uf just if it is beauty?
22:47:08 <cpressey> zzo38: They're figments of my imagination. Have you ever seen the admonition on paperwork, "Do not fold, staple, or mutilate?" Sometimes "bend" and "spindle" are in there too.
22:47:14 <coppro> pikhq: oh, please please please make it link boost statically
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22:51:07 <zzo38> cpressey: OK. But it is your imagination, are CFOLD and stuff supposed to be a new kind of program? If so, what is your idea about it?
22:53:19 <cpressey> zzo38: An eso build system integrating a literate programming system, a package manager, a language-dependent aspect-oriented compiler, a build orchestrator and a download manager. And probably some other things, since those by themselves doesn't sound like a wild enough party.
22:53:27 <cpressey> And, I just made that up.
22:53:32 <cpressey> Please don't ask for details.
22:53:52 <cpressey> Oh, that should be "language-independent"
22:54:04 <cpressey> Probably throw a VM in there too.
22:54:06 <cpressey> No, two VMs.
22:54:08 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:54:41 -!- nooga has joined.
22:56:32 <cpressey> There should probably be a compiler-compiler in there somewhere too. Oh, a macro system. Actually just make those both be the same thing.
22:56:55 <cpressey> AND IT'S ALL SCRIPTABLE
22:57:07 * cpressey begins work on the Eclipse plugin
23:01:30 <Vonlebio> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ConMan/List_of_numbers_that_are_always_odd ← *this was a real article.*
23:02:13 <alise> LOVE YOUR DIAPHRAGM
23:02:22 <alise> pikhq: Stop1
23:02:24 <alise> *Stop!
23:02:28 <Vonlebio> My diaphragm?
23:02:32 <alise> pikhq: If you won't make it a nice, well-engineered, simple Makefile, then I will.
23:03:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:03:31 <alise> "Odd numbers." --List of numbers that are always odd
23:03:50 <alise> [[Numbers equal to one-half the year of a World Cup year since 1966 or Winter Olympic since 1994]]
23:03:51 <alise> gahaha
23:04:16 <alise> "Throughout the last several centuries, an even number of days in January has been an infallible sign that nobody will die, a fact which hypochondriacss should take note of."
23:04:35 <Vonlebio> At one point, there was an edit war over whether 3 should be included.
23:04:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:05:03 -!- augur has joined.
23:05:28 <oerjan> 08:59:58 <alise> Now consider an 8-bit binary number; 01010101.
23:05:28 <oerjan> 09:00:06 <alise> To get the result for a given tuple, look at its position in the ordering.
23:05:49 <alise> <oerjan> 09:00:06 <alise> To get the result for a given tuple, look at its position in the ordering.
23:05:58 <oerjan> you realise this is exactly wolfram's naming scheme for elementary CAs?
23:06:27 <alise> oerjan: :-D
23:06:37 <alise> oerjan: does his ordering go FFF, FFT or TTT, TTF?
23:06:49 <Vonlebio> alise, evidently, you are but a finger of Wolfram's ego.
23:06:52 <oerjan> TTT, TTF.
23:07:01 <alise> hmm, interesting, so if cpressey was right about the blitting lifes
23:07:12 <alise> then a combination of elementary CAs can easily produce GoL
23:07:14 <alise> sort of
23:07:15 <alise> :P
23:07:22 <cpressey> Well
23:07:24 <cpressey> Yeah
23:08:20 <alise> <Vonlebio> At one point, there was an edit war over whether 3 should be included. ;; hahaha
23:08:32 <cpressey> The impl I was thinking of, btw, is PopLife, on Fred Fish disk #111.
23:08:39 <Vonlebio> END THE HEGEMONY OF 3-ODDISTS!
23:09:44 <oerjan> that is, rule 110 is 64+32+8+4+2 = 2^6+2^5+2^3+2^2+2^1, the exponents are 110, 101, 011, 010, 001 in binary
23:09:46 <cpressey> Oh man, looking at this is making me miss the Amiga :(
23:10:05 <oerjan> which are exactly the combinations which give 1
23:10:27 <cpressey> http://uk.aminet.net/pix/irc/Fred.jpg
23:10:59 <Vonlebio> "Fred Fish" was the account name for a school computer at one of my schools.
23:11:01 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:11:06 * Vonlebio → sleep
23:11:09 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:11:10 <alise> cpressey: Do you have that disk? :P
23:11:24 <alise> I wonder if NetBSD runs on Amigas...
23:11:32 <cpressey> alise: I used to! I found the source, going to pastie it if 27K isn't too big...
23:11:35 <alise> (The primary point to old hardware is NETBSD.)
23:11:43 <cpressey> http://aminet.net/search?query=poplife
23:11:58 <alise> I have no lha tools :)
23:12:11 <alise> bit blitting is so cool
23:12:27 <cpressey> http://pastie.org/1127717
23:12:38 <cpressey> Replete with inline 680x0 assembly code.
23:14:28 <alise> oh, it isn't all assembly?
23:14:30 <alise> lame!
23:14:33 <alise> "AdresRegs"
23:14:34 <alise> adreses
23:15:07 <alise> cpressey: I bet that won't run in UAE.
23:15:10 <cpressey> Everything written for the Amiga was a mix of C and 680x0, it seems.
23:15:22 <cpressey> alise: Oh, I bet it wi- ... might.
23:15:33 <alise> cpressey: Go on. Try it. :P
23:15:43 <cpressey> When I install UAE again, I will :)
23:16:16 <cpressey> Damn, I am too sad from nostalgia. I have to back away from this. Sorry.
23:16:40 <cpressey> Hey, c'mere Django! Gimme that frickin META.QUERY_STRING! grrrr
23:16:58 <alise> Django ugh
23:17:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:17:11 <alise> I think Nostalgia is probably the best and worst thing ever.
23:17:14 <alise> *nostalgia
23:17:25 <cpressey> Yeah no kiddin', Django uggh,.
23:17:44 <alise> * Here we set things up. (Or do we upset them? :-)
23:18:06 <alise> Well, I can safely say I have no fucking idea how that Life works.
23:18:25 <cpressey> Yup. That's how it made me feel too.
23:19:47 <alise> All I know is DAMN BLIT IS AWESOME
23:19:58 <alise> I propose we mandate that all new hardware have blit support.
23:20:15 <cpressey> btw, Eightebed is almost done. I think it does everything it's supposed to. I just need to add a memset() in one place in the generated code to ensure structures are initialized, and one or two more unit tests, and polish the doc, and I'll release it.
23:20:32 <oerjan> <alise> Vonlebio: wait, that's latin?
23:20:34 <alise> Does it yield eightebenment?
23:20:38 <oerjan> italian afaict
23:20:45 <alise> oerjan: yeah but it looked like it could be latin, theoretically
23:20:54 <cpressey> Simplified Latin
23:20:54 <oerjan> italian tends to do that :D
23:21:12 <alise> shaddap :)
23:21:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
23:21:48 <oerjan> "film" is not a plausible latin word, i think
23:22:02 <oerjan> while it's exactly how italian does borrowings
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23:23:52 <alise> cpressey: there is an Amiga NetBSD port! woowowowowo
23:25:15 <cpressey> alise: Oh. Yes, I knew that. But didn't make the connection.
23:25:32 <cpressey> alise: Are you looking at getting a vintage computer?
23:25:47 <alise> i always want vintage computers
23:25:55 <alise> i had a powerpc mac recently and that was sweet even though it wouldn't run linux
23:25:59 <alise> very very slow though
23:26:06 <alise> imac g3 is kind of shit
23:26:08 <cpressey> <bomb icon>
23:27:15 <alise> eh
23:27:17 <alise> they don't crash that much
23:27:33 <alise> guru meditation is a far cooler screen tho
23:27:51 <alise> i tell you though, booting linux from mac os classic
23:27:52 <alise> almost impossible
23:27:56 <alise> i had to use an ancient version of debian
23:27:58 <alise> never got past bootup
23:28:11 <alise> cpressey: there's a port to the Atari ST, too
23:28:15 <alise> or at least I guess ST, since it's 68k
23:28:33 <alise> wow a website that changes my mouse cursor
23:28:35 <alise> haven't seen that for a while
23:28:40 <pikhq> Say, does anyone happen to have any idea how to write up answers for a list of homework problems in LaTeX nicely?
23:28:45 <alise> to the workbench cursor
23:28:50 <alise> pikhq: I SAID STOP :|
23:29:15 <pikhq> coppro: Link? Boost? Statically? NO NO NO
23:29:33 <pikhq> alise: TeX. Homework. I don't want it to be handwritten because I'd like to get credit for it.
23:29:36 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: No route to host).
23:29:46 <alise> pikhq: If you're making it autotools, I'm making a sane Makefile version, I said.
23:29:48 <alise> For that program.
23:29:50 -!- tombom has joined.
23:29:53 <alise> Because I refuse to let autotools exist.
23:30:06 <alise> So don't use autohel or be faced with harsh competition :|
23:30:22 <alise> INDEED.
23:30:23 <alise> NOW COMPLY
23:30:29 <pikhq> alise: FUCK yOU
23:30:33 <alise> pikhq: DIE BITCH
23:30:48 <alise> coppro: KILL HIM
23:31:16 <pikhq> Heck, if you could just tell me how to make non-centered display math, I'd be satisified.
23:31:24 <alise> pikhq: It can be done.
23:32:01 <pikhq> alise: Fucking hell stop being a bitch.
23:32:19 <alise> I'm joking; I assumed you were too.
23:33:11 <pikhq> I'm not joking about trying to type up my homework and not wanting it to look like shit.
23:35:20 <alise> the actual answer is "i've forgotten, google it"
23:35:40 <pikhq> -_-
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23:42:25 <cpressey> frungle mungle mungle
23:44:51 <cpressey> frungle GUNGLE mungle bungle
23:46:19 <cpressey> I have to stop writing things in Python.
23:46:36 -!- kwertii has joined.
23:48:23 <zzo38> cpressey: Then use different program language.
23:48:32 <alise> zzo38: he's sort of paid to
23:48:45 <alise> i gather
23:48:55 <cpressey> Yeah, but I did mean, for my own stuff.
23:48:59 <alise> ah
23:49:27 <zzo38> cpressey: OK. Which other programming languages do you want to use? You can use many program language for different purposes.
23:50:13 <nooga> do you think that 'forfiter' is a good name for an app ?
23:50:21 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; funs i o n = forM (replicateM n i) $ (`map` o) . (,); main = print $ funs [0,1] [0,1] 2
23:50:26 <cpressey> I should probably either: a) get back into Haskell, or b) write something in Ruby, just so I can say that I did.
23:50:34 <EgoBot> [[([0,0],0),([0,1],0),([1,0],0),([1,1],0)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],0),([1,0],0),([1,1],1)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],0),([1,0],1),([1,1],0)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],0),([1,0],1),([1,1],1)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],1),([1,0],0),([1,1],0)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],1),([1,0],0),([1,1],1)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],1),([1,0],1),([1,1],0)],[([0,0],0),([0,1],1),([1,0],1),([1,1],1)],[([0,0],1),([0,1],0),([1,0],0),([1,1],0)],[([0,0],1),([0,1],0),([1,0],0),([1,1],1)],[([0,0],1),([0,1],0),([1,0],1),([1,1],0)],[([
23:50:35 <alise> nooga: no
23:50:37 <alise> sounds weird
23:50:37 <cpressey> Well, I've written stuff in Ruby at work, actually, so that's not pressing.
23:50:55 <nooga> alise: resembles something?
23:50:55 <oerjan> alise: ^ (*MWAHAHAHA*)
23:51:05 <alise> nooga: makes me think for filter
23:51:09 <alise> before i see forfiter
23:51:12 <alise> it'd be forfeiter
23:51:13 <alise> anyway
23:51:15 <alise> forfit isn't a word
23:51:20 <alise> oerjan: wat
23:51:41 <cpressey> zzo38: Or I should write more games.
23:51:45 <oerjan> function enumeration in haskell
23:51:57 <nooga> i wanted something that does not mean anything
23:52:02 <cpressey> It's just, it's just, it's just that it's too easy to keep writing in Python, once you've started. Argh.
23:52:30 <cpressey> Neko! Io! Falcon! There are so many choices!
23:52:39 <cpressey> Smalltalk, even!
23:52:52 <alise> Neko is shit! Falcon is shit!
23:52:57 <alise> Io is interesting but the library is so bad it's pathetic!
23:52:58 <cpressey> Yeah, well.
23:53:06 <alise> Smalltalk is interesting but good luck making anything standalone i.e. anything but a server!
23:53:09 <alise> Forth is sweet!
23:53:13 <alise> Do something in Forth.
23:53:16 <alise> Use RetroForth or something.
23:53:21 <cpressey> Ah, Forth... mmmaybe.
23:53:21 <alise> Make a game in RetroForth.
23:53:23 <alise> Make a roguelike in RetroForth.
23:53:24 <cpressey> RetroForth?
23:53:30 <zzo38> Yes, make something in Forth, some time.
23:53:30 <cpressey> Not ColorForth?
23:53:42 <alise> cpressey: RetroForth is the closest thing to on-the-metal Forth you'll find that's hosted in another OS.
23:53:43 <zzo38> Maybe make a MegaZeux game using Forth, if you want to.
23:53:54 <alise> It's not NAS.
23:53:55 <alise> It's a lot simpler.
23:54:07 <alise> 10KiB Linux binary.
23:54:23 <cpressey> Well, I've downloaded it. I might try building it tonight...
23:54:24 <alise> http://rx-core.org/jsvm/ Javascript VM for it :P
23:54:35 <alise> the prompt is a bit weird what with its triggering on space
23:54:40 <alise> dunno if the cli version does that
23:54:59 <cpressey> Does the RetroForth distro come with some good example code?
23:55:02 <alise> "Unlike most Forths, Retro does not buffer on a line by line basis. Input is parsed as it is typed, and words are executed when the spacebar is hit."
23:55:05 <alise> cpressey: dunno, prolly
23:55:11 <alise> http://rx-core.org/pages/
23:55:14 <alise> there's games there
23:55:18 <alise> and applications
23:55:31 <alise> the game pages don't exist yet
23:55:34 <alise> i bet they're in the source
23:55:49 <cpressey> Ah, the tarball includes a copy of the wiki. Nice touch.
23:55:51 <zzo38> Unfortunately the documentation for MegaZeux Forth is not quite good enough. So just learn from the example
23:55:53 <alise> i dunno about the new retroforth release, so much has changed
23:55:58 <alise> but it's probably still cool
23:56:06 <alise> This is a collection of small applications, libraries, and tools built using the Rx Core.
23:56:08 <alise> http://rx-core.org/dev/projects/playground/index
23:57:00 <cpressey> I have a premonition that this will be frustrating. But we'll see.
23:57:03 <cpressey> What is the Rx Core?
23:57:08 <zzo38> Here is a simple example of a Forth code that can be used in MegaZeux: http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/index.php?title=PZX#ZZT_Keys
23:57:18 <alise> cpressey: Retro Forth's core, I think
23:57:24 <alise> Older RetroForth was simpler.
23:57:34 <cpressey> Hm, OK.
23:57:36 <alise> I think.
23:57:46 <cpressey> Well, I must needs be off, I'm afraid.
23:57:47 <alise> You could try http://s3.retroforth.org/download/10.x/retro-10.5.tar.gz
23:58:05 <zzo38> But if you want to learn MegaZeux, play my Super ASCII MZX Town game. (Part I does not have any Forth codes, but you can learn from it anyways, and it is good game, try to play this game)
23:58:13 <alise> zzo38: what key in qbasic stops program execution?
23:58:16 <alise> even if it's in an infinite loop
23:58:19 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Byee).
23:58:52 <zzo38> alise: CTRL+BREAK.
23:59:15 <zzo38> But only in the IDE. When compiled, CTRL+BREAK and also be used, in debug mode compile.
23:59:41 <zzo38> If you push CTRL+BREAK and nothing happen, perhaps because an INPUT$ is active, so push CTRL+BREAK followed by another key.
23:59:43 <alise> Gah; doesn't work in DOSBox.
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