←2010-09-04 2010-09-05 2010-09-06→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:14 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:00:22 <cpressey> oerjan: D'oh
00:00:23 <oerjan> not with finite starting setup
00:00:44 <cpressey> I assumed ByteByteJump isn't with fiite starting setup either.
00:00:45 <oerjan> s/setup/program/
00:00:56 <oerjan> maybe
00:01:02 <cpressey> I meant "infinite SMETANA"
00:01:04 <cpressey> I guess
00:01:33 <oerjan> <cpressey> Oh btw, that P != NP proof was debunked, wasn't it?
00:02:12 <cpressey> infinite SMETANA needs a "pattern" in the initial infinite program though, I think (like e.g. Wireworld does), but BBJ might not, it might work with it "all zeroes"
00:02:18 <oerjan> more or less, the author seems unable to admit it though
00:02:46 -!- distant_figure has quit (Quit: underflow).
00:03:10 <oerjan> last i heard he _still_ claimed to be intending to send a repaired proof for publication. but no longer to publish it on the web beforehand :D
00:03:39 <oerjan> (it wasn't intended to reach the web initially, though)
00:04:30 <oerjan> i haven't looked much at bytebytejump
00:05:55 <oerjan> what is more dubious is that he now claimed to send it just to select experts again - but this did _not_ include the people that had been finding flaws
00:06:01 <oerjan> *even more dubious
00:06:35 <oerjan> (most importantly terence tao, who said he had not received a copy)
00:06:46 -!- cpressey has changed nick to Dubious.
00:07:37 <oerjan> i guess at this point everyone expects it to just fizzle out and be forgotten
00:07:39 -!- sebbu has joined.
00:09:23 <oerjan> incidentally there was a proof that P=NP from an indian professor in recent days
00:09:53 <oerjan> it doesn't seem to be taken very seriously though
00:10:36 <Sgeo> Is there a name for the class of problems that get more convenient to solve if the halting problem were solved
00:10:43 <Sgeo> Note "convenient". As in, not necessary
00:10:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: Pi_1 and Sigma_1
00:11:02 <oerjan> oh hm
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00:11:20 <Sgeo> Although necessary is also interesting
00:12:11 <Dubious> Sgeo: You might have to define "convenient" more formally
00:12:21 <oerjan> i cannot recall anything about non-necessary
00:13:04 <Dubious> It's pretty bizarre to think of things like, "If I have an oracle for HP I can sort a list in O(log n) time!"
00:13:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: the halting problem _already_ assumes you have unlimited resources to start with, so defining "convenient" seems difficult.
00:14:07 <oerjan> Dubious: now that _is_ dubious, you would need to load the data onto the oracle tape after all
00:14:45 <oerjan> although given that, it _would_ seem like an HP oracle could solve everything computable in O(n) time
00:15:30 <oerjan> (just load the fixed program which halts iff your computation accepts, plus its data)
00:16:40 <oerjan> that's [everything computable] in O(n) time btw, not everything [computable in O(n) time]
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00:20:17 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:31:14 <alise> <Sgeo> Grah, I think I'm turning into alise ;; why?
00:31:32 <Sgeo> Instead of telling him what he wanted to know, I just acted rudely
00:31:47 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that saying that may also be rude :/
00:32:02 <alise> <cpressey> "Murder, She Wrote", "MacGyver", "The Beachcombers" ;; I hate Murder, She Wrote so much.
00:34:34 -!- comex has changed nick to PermanentRebel.
00:34:38 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOWWUdMAfSY
00:34:53 <alise> <Sgeo> My patch is in AceHack!
00:34:54 <alise> * Sgeo happies
00:34:55 <alise> which patch?
00:35:11 <Sgeo> alise, the one that allows candles to be attached to the candelabrum underwater
00:35:42 <Dubious> alise: "The Scarecrow and Mrs. King".
00:36:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why can't you do that normally?
00:36:39 <alise> Sgeo: I don't mind people saying they're like me :P
00:36:40 <alise> Dubious: ?
00:36:49 <alise> Sgeo: I only do that to AnMaster, though.
00:36:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I can't say I ever tried in nethack though
00:36:56 <Sgeo> Vorpal, because it thinks that you're trying to light a candle
00:37:01 <Vorpal> Sgeo, ah
00:37:02 <Sgeo> And won't let you
00:37:28 <Sgeo> zzo... darnit
00:37:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, should report a bug to the nethack theme too? Unless that has already been done
00:37:42 <Sgeo> Vorpal, yeah, reported a while ago
00:38:05 <Sgeo> Took them time to receive it, and they never checked if the patch is still up, so they made their own, probably more elegant, fix
00:38:54 <alise> Sgeo: NetHack dev team, elegant code.
00:38:55 <alise> Hahahaha!
00:39:38 <Vorpal> alise, indeed, Highly elegant. Compared to some of the code on tdwtf that is.
00:40:19 <Dubious> alise: "Moonlighting".
00:40:40 -!- PermanentRebel has changed nick to comex.
00:40:47 <Dubious> Hm, 80's TV shows may not be the best cultural common ground for a 15-year-old in Britain.
00:40:54 <Dubious> *American TV shows
00:40:58 <Vorpal> comex, not so permanent then?
00:41:06 <alise> Oh, Dubious is cpressey.
00:41:11 <alise> Dubious: I had no idea of your context.
00:41:13 <comex> Vorpal: No, I'm still a Rebel (in Agora). Just not in IRC.
00:41:14 <comex> ;o
00:41:22 <Vorpal> coppro, or perhaps you rebelled against being a permanent one?
00:41:27 <Dubious> COntext?! Pfah! btw I'm getting used to Parsec.
00:41:29 <alise> He rebels against APPLE with his BOMBS
00:41:42 <alise> I think this is actually how jailbreaking works; exactly like civil war
00:41:45 <alise> Please confirm/deny, comex
00:41:52 <alise> Dubious: Anyway, I hate Murder, She Wrote so, so much.
00:41:58 <alise> *"Murder, She Wrote"
00:42:08 <Vorpal> alise, which genre?
00:42:21 <alise> Vorpal: You know those silly light crime programs of the 80s?
00:42:23 <alise> Diagnosis Murder and the like.
00:42:28 <Vorpal> oh
00:42:32 <alise> It's just like that, except the main character is a semi-old woman.
00:42:35 <alise> Who attracts DEATH. EVERYWHERE
00:42:42 <coppro> Vorpal: typo?
00:42:42 <Vorpal> alise, like Miss Maple?
00:42:50 <Vorpal> coppro, ?
00:42:57 <alise> Vorpal: Much worse.
00:43:00 <oerjan> *marple
00:43:09 <alise> (Probably.)
00:43:12 <coppro> Corpal: you pinged me
00:43:12 <Vorpal> ah
00:43:16 <Vorpal> alise, the Miss Marple *books* are actually good
00:43:42 <Vorpal> alise, a bit repetitive after a while though
00:43:56 <Dubious> Agatha Christie can't hold a candle to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
00:44:28 <Vorpal> Dubious, while that is true, that doesn't mean Agatha Christie is *bad*. Just not nearly as good.
00:44:46 <FireFly> www.js1k.com may interest you people, if you don't know about it
00:44:58 <FireFly> Hi, by the way
00:45:25 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
00:45:31 <FireFly> Oh, hello, oerjan
00:45:34 <oerjan> HI
00:45:57 <alise> Is anyone actually playing Dot Action 2 currently?
00:49:59 <Sgeo> No
00:50:35 <alise> Bah.
00:50:38 <alise> I've got to 60.
00:50:41 <alise> fizzie: Do you remember how to do 60?
00:52:17 <ais523> wow, sed is slow on DOSBox
00:52:30 <ais523> well, everything is (rm is actually slow enough that you can see it execute)
00:52:33 <ais523> but sed in particular
00:53:19 <alise> ais523: what version?
00:53:19 <alise> of sed
00:53:20 <alise> that is
00:53:20 <alise> port
00:53:24 <alise> djgpdgdjgpjgpgjpdgjdpgpp?
00:53:47 <ais523> alise: yep, djgpp
00:55:04 <alise> ais523: you can run Windows 3.1 on it. Try that :P
00:55:19 <ais523> don't have a spare win3.1 license
00:55:52 <Vorpal> XD
00:56:16 <alise> ais523: nor does anyone else who does it...
00:56:35 <alise> ais523: besides, you can't buy them any more
00:56:42 <Dubious> http://pastie.org/1138727 <-- Why this not work?
00:57:11 <Dubious> Why my fail not tell endBy1 stop?
00:59:05 <alise> Dubious: Please call yourself cpressey and what have you done to my browser.
00:59:10 <Dubious> :(
00:59:13 -!- Dubious has changed nick to cpressey.
00:59:24 <cpressey> I ATE YOUR BROWSER, LITTLE MAN
00:59:45 * cpressey is apparently some kind of dragon creature
01:00:13 <alise> cpressey: http://imgur.com/zZyIH.png
01:00:14 <alise> Seriously dude
01:00:15 <cpressey> I bet I have to use 'try' or 'choice'
01:00:15 <alise> Not cool
01:00:37 <cpressey> Cooooool
01:01:21 <alise> <Dubious> Why my fail not tell endBy1 stop?
01:01:23 <alise> wat
01:01:38 <alise> Well, fail will fail the whole parse, I think
01:01:40 <alise> as a syntax error
01:01:43 <alise> rather than ending endBy1
01:01:54 <alise> I'd tell you to use Parsec 3, but *eh*
01:01:57 <cpressey> Oh wait Parsec does come with a lexer!
01:02:00 <alise> cpressey: What is this language?
01:02:03 <alise> Also, yes, it does.
01:02:06 <alise> Not the most general one, but yes.
01:02:26 <Sgeo> My kitchen, if it were a restaurant's kitchen, would be closed downj
01:02:43 <cpressey> alise: This is just an example, as was the previous one I pastied.
01:03:01 <cpressey> Sort-of kind-of parts of the PL-{GOTO} language.
01:03:07 <alise> PL-{GOTO}?
01:03:18 <alise> Sgeo: DETTOL PROTECTS FACT
01:03:28 <cpressey> alise: I guess my question is, how does endBy1 know when to end, if not from a fail (I thought it would catch it and stop)?
01:03:42 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:03:57 <alise> I'll tell you by quoting the source, which will be a bitch because you're being poopy and using Parsec 2.
01:03:58 <cpressey> PL-{GOTO} is the language of for loops, basically (it's in a computation theory text by Brainerd & Weber)
01:03:58 <alise> Unless...
01:04:02 <alise> Does import Text.Parsec work?
01:04:13 <alise> If so, you're using Parsec 3, which is probably good.
01:04:20 <Sgeo> DETTOL?
01:04:21 <cpressey> It does not. I'm using whatever Ubuntu decides to give me. Give it to me, Ubuntu!
01:04:28 <alise> Do you have cabal?
01:04:41 <cpressey> Cabal makes me sick. But, I can check.
01:04:54 <cpressey> bash: cabal: command not found
01:05:11 <oerjan> cpressey: in any case you need try if you want anything to recover from a fail that consumes characters
01:06:53 <alise> cpressey: It appears that Parsec has automatic support for indentation-based parsing.
01:06:57 <alise> Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.IndentParser
01:06:59 <alise> As part of the tokeniser.
01:07:06 <alise> oh, no
01:07:08 <alise> that's another thing
01:07:11 <alise> another package
01:07:20 <Sgeo> http://bobby-tables.com/
01:07:20 <alise> cabal install IndentParser --constraint="parsec >= 3"
01:07:33 <alise> cpressey: if you remove the ubuntu package, install cabal-install (search your package manager)
01:07:36 <alise> then you can do
01:07:40 <alise> cabal install parsec==3
01:07:55 <alise> oh, apparently IndentParser doesn't actually work with parsec 3
01:07:57 <alise> okay then
01:08:05 <cpressey> `apt-cache search cabal-install` == ''
01:08:05 <alise> although there appears to be replacement code
01:08:09 <alise> whatever
01:08:15 <alise> cpressey: apt-cache search cabal
01:09:03 <cpressey> `apt-cache search cabal` == ghc6, ghc6-doc, ghc6-prof, haskell-devscripts, libhugs-cabal-bundled
01:09:05 <alise> [[The beta-Juliet language is not Turing-Complete by itself. Nor is the Portia pre-processor. However, when used together, the intent is that they form a Turing-Complete language.]] ;; DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE
01:09:09 <HackEgo> No output.
01:09:13 <cpressey> Oh, and fortunes-fr
01:09:19 <alise> (So say people who don't believe in ais523's proof.)
01:09:25 <HackEgo> No output.
01:09:32 <alise> cpressey: Install fortunes-fr. If nothing else, you will be amused.
01:09:48 <cpressey> Oui, j'amuse.
01:09:49 <alise> [[[Historical note: Portia, as it has stood for many years, cannot really generalize either, so the combination of beta-Juliet and Portia is still not Turing-Complete.]]]
01:09:50 <alise> HA.
01:10:10 <cpressey> Some sort of InfinitePortia might work
01:10:33 <cpressey> But I wrote 2iota instead
01:10:45 <alise> "beta-Juliet and Portia are puns on the names of automobile manufacturers." ;; Wait, which?
01:11:07 <cpressey> As is 2iota :)
01:11:48 <cpressey> But Toyota sucks now so I regret calling it that now.
01:11:57 <alise> Which manufacturers yaeraeryahragh
01:12:01 <alise> cpressey: Can 2iota programs terminate?
01:12:08 <cpressey> Well, "Portia" should be easy
01:12:20 <cpressey> alise: Yes, if there are no more events
01:12:29 <alise> Por...tea...ah.
01:12:37 <alise> cpressey: Darn.
01:12:51 <alise> cpressey: You could have made a joke wrt the recent Toyotas that wouldn't stop accelerating.
01:12:58 <cpressey> Hey yeah!
01:13:02 <cpressey> Darn.
01:13:12 <alise> Why did you not forsee this?!?!??!?!!?!
01:14:27 <alise> cpressey: Hey, do you strictly need the alphabet/succ stuff?
01:14:49 <alise> event Succ One, causes SuccResult Two;
01:14:53 <alise> event Succ Two, causes SuccResult Three;
01:14:54 <alise> ...
01:14:56 <alise> then
01:15:17 <cpressey> strictly? probably not
01:15:23 <alise> event Domino N Falls, causes Succ N.
01:15:31 <alise> event SuccResult N, causes Domino N Falls.
01:15:34 <oerjan> but in any case, the Result Succs.
01:15:55 <alise> cpressey: what is succ Seven, anyway?
01:15:57 <alise> if you have an alphabet of seven
01:16:02 <alise> One?
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01:16:16 <cpressey> I think it's One Seven. 2iota has lists of symbols. Or something
01:16:26 <cpressey> Er, or One One?
01:16:29 <alise> You're crazy.
01:16:29 <cpressey> I forget.
01:16:49 <cpressey> I'm more than crazy. I'm Dubious. Or I *was*.
01:17:17 <cpressey> SO, I know I need a 'try', but I don't know where to put it. Attempt #1 did not bear fruit.
01:19:30 <cpressey> alise: the whole "succ" thing was to ensure that you could access an infinite set of names of events.
01:19:37 <alise> try's loins are infertile.
01:19:47 <cpressey> Otherwise there would be no Turing-completey.
01:20:41 <cpressey> Beer! Beer will help.
01:20:59 <cpressey> alise: OK, "Porsche" and "Alfa Romeo"
01:21:16 <alise> cpressey: Oh, I thought it was a pronunciation pun.
01:21:20 <alise> Like 2iota.
01:21:53 <cpressey> Actually "Portia" was this character in "Weerd-Oh's"... I assume they were punning it. I just borrowed it, in that respect.
01:22:05 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:22:22 <alise> Misplaced apostrophe syndrome.
01:22:23 <alise> Beep beep beep.
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01:23:06 <cpressey> Sorry, "Weird-Ohs". http://sharetv.org/shows/weird-ohs_ca
01:23:51 <cpressey> But yes. beta-Juliet is more of a correspondence play-on-words.
01:24:41 <cpressey> I've gotten emails from people assuming the languages have something to do with Shakespeare, because there's a Portia in one of his other plays.
01:26:35 <ais523> I never did get the pun in "beta-Juliet"
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01:27:11 <Sgeo> What's alpha-romeo supposed to mena?
01:27:12 <Sgeo> *mean
01:27:32 <zzo38> I just have one question, if you have any opinion what DVI specials the TeXnicard DVI driver needs to support.
01:27:37 <Sgeo> I assume that the joke's there, and "beta-Juliet" is a second-tier joke
01:27:43 <cpressey> Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo
01:28:37 <cpressey> zzo38: I have no opinion on that matter.
01:29:03 <alise> Sgeo doesn't know of Alfa Romeo?
01:29:41 <zzo38> O, that is what Alfa Romeo means. And is that where "beta-Juliet" comes from?
01:29:45 <Sgeo> It's an automaker?
01:30:02 <alise> ...
01:30:33 <alise> cpressey: Please have a go at stage 60 of Dot Action 2.
01:30:37 <alise> Code 188-268. kthx
01:32:11 <alise> fizzie: SERIOUSLY HOW DO YOU DO IT
01:32:16 <cpressey> alise: Please give me Flash on Ubuntu without any hassle.
01:32:37 <alise> cpressey: Install the package.
01:32:39 <alise> Done.
01:32:53 <Sgeo> alise, please play stage 101 of Dot Action 2
01:33:07 <alise> Sgeo: no
01:33:07 <cpressey> grr ok
01:33:17 <alise> Sgeo: I haven't completed 60-100 yet.
01:33:32 <zzo38> And what is the best way to implement allowing the text to be stretched horizontally but not vertically, if there is not room, it will make it less wider horizontal, with using TeX, METAFONT, ImageMagick, etc?
01:33:43 <Sgeo> Those won't show up in the list when you do the bonus code
01:33:50 <alise> zzo38: the only TeX etc. we know is LaTeX.
01:33:57 <alise> Sgeo: 101 > 100.
01:34:01 <alise> They appear after you complete 100.
01:34:10 <alise> I don't care how you justify it to yourself, I am playing in order and that means 100 before 101.
01:34:12 <Sgeo> alise, have you checked the flash file for that?
01:34:23 <alise> Sgeo: I have /done it/ before when using a code for all 100, iirc.
01:34:26 <alise> Or at least someone here did.
01:34:26 <zzo38> You know only LaTeX?
01:34:48 <alise> zzo38: All of us do, more or less. Or nothing at all.
01:34:52 <cpressey> alise: Hassle level has risen above 0.4%, aborting.
01:35:03 <Sgeo> cpressey, you had to accept a LICENSE?
01:35:07 <alise> cpressey: What?
01:35:17 <cpressey> sha256sum mismatch install_flash_player_10_linux.tar.gz
01:35:18 <cpressey> The Flash plugin is NOT installed.
01:35:29 <alise> cpressey: Whaat?
01:35:33 <alise> aptitude update
01:35:35 * cpressey walks awat
01:35:37 <cpressey> awayy
01:35:38 <alise> You have an out-of-date package file, probably.
01:35:51 <alise> cpressey: That is the package, right?
01:36:38 <alise> cpressey: sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude install flashplugin-nonfree
01:36:40 <alise> No reason that should not work.
01:36:55 <zzo38> I am not asking about macro packages though. I am asking about how I should implement the DVI driver and stuff like that, to make it work properly like that.
01:37:29 <alise> zzo38: None of us know about that.
01:37:38 <alise> As far as I am aware.
01:37:43 <cpressey> Did a 'sudo apt-get update'. Did a 'sudo apt-get remove flashplugin-nonfree' then again with the 'sudo apt-get install flashplugin-nonfree'. Same checksum error.
01:38:23 <Sgeo> I'd alfa-romeo HER beta-Juliet
01:38:26 <Sgeo> </weird>
01:38:51 <alise> cpressey: 32-bit or 64-bit?
01:39:23 <cpressey> alise: 32-bit
01:39:32 <alise> cpressey: Okay, it's easy then:
01:39:56 <ais523> sounds vaguely like the package is corrupted somehow
01:39:58 <alise> cpressey: http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/thankyou/?installer=Flash_Player_10.1_for_Linux_(.deb)
01:39:59 <ais523> if the checksum is wrong
01:40:04 <alise> cpressey: Save this, then "sudo dpkg -i thefilename".
01:40:06 <alise> Done.
01:40:24 <alise> (ais523: I know, I know, they have an apt repository, but this is simple.)
01:40:45 <Sgeo> I'd apt HER cache
01:40:48 <alise> ais523: and it sounds to me like Adobe upgraded it silently
01:40:49 <alise> Sgeo: stop that
01:40:58 <Sgeo> I'd stop HER... Ok, enough
01:41:22 <alise> fizzie: Are you there.
01:41:23 <alise> :|
01:43:56 <cpressey> alise: And restart Firefox I presume>
01:43:59 <cpressey> s/>/?/
01:44:22 <alise> cpressey: Just reloading a page should work, but if not, yeah.
01:44:39 <cpressey> alise: Gimme that dot action link again
01:44:54 <alise> http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/
01:45:01 <alise> I'd prefer a fast mirror with 1.10, but there you go.
01:45:06 <alise> 188-268 for level 60
01:45:14 <alise> I think the trick is to bash off the ceiling before you drop down to the line of blues, so you fall faster.
01:45:21 <cpressey> Working!
01:45:29 <cpressey> REST OF WEEKEND NOW GONE
01:46:34 <Sgeo> ]What's so great about 1.10?
01:46:54 <cpressey> alise: HOw do I enter the code?
01:46:57 <alise> Sgeo: Dunno. It's totally updated.
01:46:58 <Sgeo> asd prevent tk be dru nk
01:47:00 <alise> cpressey: Second menu item.
01:47:16 <Sgeo> Does cpressy even know the slightest thing about playing?
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01:47:22 <Sgeo> Cyan == goal. You need all of theym
01:47:28 <cpressey> alise: Yes. Figured it out
01:47:31 <Sgeo> Yellow == death, unless the Zet timer is running
01:47:39 <alise> Sgeo: HE knows.
01:47:40 <alise> *He
01:47:41 <cpressey> Sgeo: No he doesn't really. He got up to level 3 a few days ago!
01:48:00 <Sgeo> ....so what happened in the meantime that Flash is no longer existant?
01:48:06 <cpressey> How do I suicide?
01:48:21 <Sgeo> Enter
01:48:23 <cpressey> Sgeo: That was a work computer.
01:48:24 <Sgeo> Arrow
01:48:24 <Sgeo> End
01:48:33 <cpressey> Sgeo: thx
01:48:35 <Sgeo> erm, Arrow to End, then space
01:48:35 <Sgeo> yw
01:49:43 <alise> cpressey: Zombies
01:49:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
01:49:55 <alise> I've been level with the last dot when I die
01:50:06 <alise> I am sure you have to bash against the ceiling so you fall faster when you go to that line of dots
01:50:32 <cpressey> I only got past the first "water" and the clock ran out.
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02:00:51 <ais523> why spam this channel?
02:01:05 <ais523> it's a kind-of pointless channel to spam...
02:01:08 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:01:14 <ais523> they should spam #freenode instead, there are many more people there
02:01:25 <alise> i've told #freenode.
02:01:27 <pikhq> Advertisement tends to just piss us off, anyones.
02:01:32 <pikhq> Anyways.
02:01:52 <pikhq> Seems kinda pointless to spam Freenode in general, really.
02:02:01 <cpressey> I'm up to level 10!
02:02:06 <Sgeo> And to spam about #freenode in particukar...
02:03:57 <Sgeo> I have a confession to make. I am actually a spammer.
02:04:08 <Sgeo> I came in here to spam PSOX related articles
02:04:12 <alise> cpressey: uhh
02:04:15 <alise> cpressey: lol
02:04:20 <cpressey> PSOX, how does THAT work?
02:04:29 <cpressey> I, too, have a confession.
02:04:36 <cpressey> I am actually a Juggalo.
02:05:05 <Sgeo> cpressey, you see, I am a time-travelling spammer
02:05:31 <Sgeo> Within 5 years, PSOX will be a hugely successful commercial product, and I will use this channel as free labor.
02:05:42 <Sgeo> So my goal is to get all the minds here primed for that event.
02:06:10 <Sgeo> Anyone want to help me magnetize cpressey?
02:06:12 <alise> That is not going well.
02:07:38 <alise> ais523: they did
02:07:43 <alise> in #freenode
02:07:53 <ais523> how... confusing
02:08:42 <Sgeo> Um, by "move along", do they mean leave?
02:08:45 <Sgeo> Or just don't talk?
02:09:10 <alise> Sgeo: I don't know who they are talking to.
02:09:14 <alise> It's +z, as they've said.
02:09:16 <alise> Can you see my messages?
02:09:19 <Sgeo> Yes
02:09:46 <alise> Conclusion: #freenode are kind of assholes. Scratch the "kind of".
02:10:31 <Sgeo> That's like me concluding that LambdaMOO is anti-documentation based on one person... oh wait
02:10:37 <Sgeo> I did conclude that. Maybe we're both wrong
02:12:37 <cpressey> LambdaMOO!
02:13:31 * Sgeo moos at cpressey
02:13:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:15:39 * Sgeo moos at the Firefox plugin
02:16:33 <alise> what firefox plugin?
02:16:47 <Sgeo> Erm, add-on
02:17:41 <alise> what add-on?
02:19:01 <Sgeo> Is your goal to get me to say the name? Because I would have said it eventually if I didn't realize that that was your goal
02:21:38 <alise> Sure.
02:27:01 <Sgeo> GreaseMonkey, do you mind if I ping you
02:27:02 <Sgeo> ?
02:27:22 <Sgeo> Why have I been acting drunk today?
02:28:10 <alise> http://blog.thejit.org/wp-content/exp/exp-canvas/index.html
02:28:16 <alise> Sgeo: caffeine?
02:28:31 <GreaseMonkey> Sgeo: hi.
02:28:43 <Sgeo> I've had caffeine this past week, but none today
02:28:47 <Sgeo> Maybe that's why?
02:29:42 <alise> unlikely.
02:32:19 <alise> [[The smallest movement a computer mouse can detect is referred to as a "mickey"]]
02:32:22 <alise> I so dearly hope this is true.
02:36:48 <zzo38> alise: I have read about that too, about the "mickey"
02:37:48 * cpressey slips Sgeo a mickey
02:45:39 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/files/aasia/01.jpg SAM HUGHES????
02:46:08 <Sgeo> alise, you are going to read Fine Structure sometime before you die, right?
02:46:17 <alise> yes
02:46:18 <alise> and why the ?s
02:47:01 <Sgeo> I've never seen a picture of him before
02:47:04 <Sgeo> That I remmeber
02:47:27 <alise> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7306696114058163464
02:58:38 <cpressey> Wow, Tubular Bells is a weirder song than I thought.
02:58:41 <cpressey> "Mandolin!"
03:00:39 <alise> Song? It's 48:57 long!
03:03:31 <cpressey> The one I was listening to, which claimed to be the original, was 8:07. Five minutes before there are any actual tubular bells, too.
03:03:42 <cpressey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8l5fthffiE
03:05:50 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that when I talk about my dad, I only talk about bad stuff. I never talk about the ok stuff, or the funny stuff
03:07:20 <cpressey> Sgeo: That tears it. There is NO WAY you will get me to believe you aren't drunk.
03:07:40 <Sgeo> Throughout the whole day?
03:07:50 <cpressey> Well, it's possible...
03:09:47 <cpressey> Well anyway, I seem to have a PL-{GOTO} parser, written in Parsec, now.
03:09:47 <Sgeo> I think, if I ever did get drunk, I'd try to make sure I'd lock out my computer access
03:09:57 <cpressey> Good plan.
03:10:13 <Sgeo> Don't need to end up deleting all muy backupkless files
03:10:28 <cpressey> Or: http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-with-complete-mamas-family-video-library-never,1592/
03:10:48 <alise> <Sgeo> Don't need to end up deleting all muy backupkless files
03:10:50 <alise> You're drunk.
03:11:10 <Sgeo> Because of typos? Or because I think it's a thing I'd do if I were drunk?
03:14:15 <alise> cpressey: I DID STAGE 60 HAHAHA
03:14:17 <alise> Sgeo: the typos
03:15:03 <Sgeo> The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. THe quick brown fox jumos over the lazy dog. The quick brown fix jumps over the lazy dog.
03:15:18 <Sgeo> The TH is a typical typo for me anywyas
03:15:40 * cpressey shakes his fist at alise
03:16:59 <Sgeo> If I _am_ drunk, maybe my body's weirdly producing (extra?) alcohol for some reason
03:17:04 <Sgeo> Maybe I should see a doctor
03:19:43 <cpressey> http://aros.sourceforge.net/introduction/index.php
03:19:43 <alise> Sgeo: Uhh ... no ...
03:20:00 <alise> cpressey: AROS' mascot has always disturbed me.
03:20:00 <Sgeo> Well, as far as I know, I have not imbibed alcohol today
03:20:14 <alise> Sgeo: You aren't drunk. At least not on alcohol.
03:20:25 <cpressey> alise: I concur.
03:20:42 * Sgeo decides that alise is a flip-flopper
03:20:52 <cpressey> I'm also not a fan of having to run it under VirtualBox.
03:20:57 <alise> Sgeo: You said it yourself.
03:21:01 <alise> cpressey: Why do you have to?
03:21:11 <cpressey> alise: Because you have to. It seems.
03:21:15 <alise> o_O
03:21:17 <alise> As opposed to?
03:21:20 <alise> Hardware or another VM?
03:21:23 <cpressey> Well, you could install it on the physical machine.
03:21:35 <cpressey> But they had me thinking it was like WINE.
03:21:48 <cpressey> Although, I've never actually *run* WINE...
03:22:14 <cpressey> I'll live with UAE for now. Workbench 1.3 forever! Woo!
03:22:30 <alise> cpressey: WinUAE ftw
03:22:38 <Sgeo> UAE?
03:23:37 <alise> Sgeo: United Arab Emirates
03:26:02 -!- oklopol has joined.
03:26:02 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklofok.
03:26:20 <cpressey> oklofok: Hey!
03:26:27 <cpressey> Sup
03:26:54 <alise> oklofok! yo!
03:26:56 <oklofok> in the set of all species, are there subsets that are cartesian products of sets of cardinality > 1
03:26:59 <alise> oklofok: Yes.
03:27:05 <alise> oklofok: In two years you owe me £50, bitch.
03:27:19 <oklofok> alise: is it trivially true?
03:27:42 <oklofok> well
03:27:47 <alise> oklofok: only in a universe of 6
03:27:59 <oklofok> okay let's say at least cardinality 3, and at least 2 sets
03:28:40 <oklofok> cpressey: what's sup is i can't sleep
03:29:20 <oklofok> university starts in a few days, so my brain is on speed
03:30:06 <alise> oklofok: why have you been so absenttt?
03:30:31 <oklofok> well i was in scotland for a week or more, and i've been working and stuff
03:30:46 <alise> oklofok: you've been away for months
03:30:49 <oklofok> i will probably be absent in the near future, too, because of the university thing
03:30:52 <oklofok> oh have i
03:30:54 <Sgeo> AGRAJAG!
03:30:58 <oklofok> well i worked for months
03:31:33 <Sgeo> I feel like I need to scream for some reason
03:31:39 <oklofok> been there
03:31:49 <oklofok> i'm hungry
03:31:56 <alise> Sgeo: have you drunk at a public place today
03:32:09 <oklofok> :D
03:32:09 <alise> oklofok: anyway start coming here more we're all cool now although AnMaster is now Vorpal so watch out
03:32:20 <alise> actually i said that because Sgeo has been acting drunk all day
03:32:22 <oklofok> Vorpal?!?
03:32:25 <oklofok> didn't see that coming
03:32:39 <oklofok> oh
03:33:10 <oklofok> i figured he just acted drunk (for a Sgeo) for three lines
03:33:22 <oklofok> and you saw right through it
03:33:36 <oklofok> because u so smart
03:33:51 <alise> so oklofok
03:33:53 <alise> remember DOT ACTION 2
03:34:03 <Sgeo> alise, how did you learn about Dot Action 2?
03:34:14 <alise> Sgeo: clicking random on dagobah.biz lot
03:34:17 <alise> *a lot
03:34:20 <Sgeo> Ah
03:34:26 <alise> s/dagobah.biz lot/dagobah.biz a lot/
03:34:31 <oklofok> alise: i may remember it
03:34:38 <oklofok> it was that trivial game right
03:34:40 <Sgeo> I sometimes go there, but few things from it really stand out
03:34:44 <Sgeo> oklofok, trivial at first game
03:34:45 <alise> oklofok: yes, which you played up to at least stage 98
03:34:48 <alise> oklofok: get playing again
03:34:53 <alise> i'm up to 64
03:35:05 <oklofok> Sgeo: well right, the few levels after 100 were hard according to fizzie, iirc
03:35:28 <Sgeo> You didn't need to put the code for the bonus levels in?
03:35:30 <Sgeo> o.O
03:35:32 <oklofok> some were hard according to alise, but...
03:35:32 <Sgeo> 101 was easy
03:35:40 <alise> oklofok: i'm a lot better at it now :P
03:35:45 <oklofok> i believe you
03:35:52 <oklofok> I'M ALSO
03:35:58 <oklofok> as well too
03:36:04 <alise> oklofok: although me and another have been destroying our thumbs doing 60 (cpressey merely believes it is impossible)
03:36:15 <oklofok> Sgeo: what does "You didn't need to put the code for the bonus levels in?" mean
03:36:26 <cpressey> Not impossible exactly, just beyond my own ability. That is some insane shit right there.
03:36:26 <oklofok> i have never tried the bonus levels
03:36:38 <Sgeo> I thought 101-108 were save code only
03:36:44 <Sgeo> And not actually achievable without it
03:36:46 <Sgeo> >.>
03:36:56 <alise> oklofok: Sgeo thinks that since 101-108 appear in a separate menu, they absolutely cannot appear after 100 and it isn't cheating to play them before the others
03:37:03 <alise> (well, not cheating, but not in-order play)
03:38:28 <oklofok> i still don't get it, was Sgeo surprised that i managed to play the game without first playing the bonus levels?
03:38:41 <alise> oklofok: no, he thought you completed level 100
03:38:43 <alise> and unlocked the save codes
03:38:49 <alise> which conflicts with his ardent, unjustified beliefs about reality
03:39:06 <oklofok> oh, right, "<alise> oklofok: yes, which you played up to at least stage 98".
03:39:17 <oklofok> (for Sgeo)
03:39:18 <oklofok> oh
03:39:20 <oklofok> at least
03:39:47 <oklofok> i don't think i finished it, the last levels took ages to finish
03:40:16 <oklofok> (which doesn't really imply hard imo)
03:41:37 <Sgeo> `I may ebed to go to sleep soon
03:41:41 <Sgeo> I'm incredibl tired
03:41:46 <HackEgo> No output.
03:41:54 <Sgeo> how apropos
03:42:02 <oklofok> HackEgo: alise'S thoughts exactly
03:42:09 <oklofok> *s
03:42:22 * Sgeo is laugujing like a maniac
03:42:29 <Sgeo> And thinks typoing is hilarious
03:42:38 <oklofok> so what was that staircase saying
03:42:57 <oklofok> typoing is a serious thing
03:43:09 <oklofok> Sgeo: what was that ...
03:43:16 <alise> Sgeo: what i'm saying is that your drink was probably spiked.
03:43:19 <alise> if there was such a drink.
03:43:26 <oklofok> ohh
03:43:29 <oklofok> that's what you meant
03:43:32 <alise> xD
03:43:45 <oklofok> i went for a slightly more offensive meaning
03:43:46 <Sgeo> There wasn't,, I think
03:44:02 <Sgeo> oklofok, tellmetoellme
03:44:11 <oklofok> gladly
03:44:50 <alise> Sgeo: okay, you have ingested /something/ today
03:44:53 <alise> what did you do different from other days
03:44:56 <alise> eat more? less? different?
03:45:12 <Sgeo> I didn't have a chicken sandwich today, since I wasn't at school
03:45:37 <Sgeo> Oh!
03:45:37 <cpressey> Hm. Chicken withdrawal. Yes. Could be serious.
03:45:50 <oklofok> when people drink, they often come to irc, because it's fun. some people seem to consider this some sort of "i'm cool cuz i'm drunk" bragging; i thought alise was doing this sort of considering; i thought the adding of "at a public place" was because people who drink with their friends are the people who brag the most about their drinking
03:45:53 <Sgeo> I had four slices of pizza this morning (or, well, afternoon, since I woke up late)
03:46:00 <alise> oklofok: we'd already confirmed he hadn't drunk
03:46:12 <Sgeo> And had four slices last night\
03:46:14 <oklofok> oh okay
03:46:16 <alise> Sgeo: pizza is not intoxicating.
03:46:23 <alise> perhaps some ingredient went bad
03:46:25 <alise> the cheese, perhaps
03:46:26 <Sgeo> I'm treating this as a joke
03:46:44 <oklofok> treating what as a joke
03:46:47 <Sgeo> I think it's more humorous for everyone to act like they think I am drunk
03:47:26 <oklofok> more humorous than what
03:47:33 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm just like this when I'm tired
03:47:38 <oklofok> are like what
03:47:40 <Sgeo> oklofok, trying to seriously find something wrong
03:47:45 <Sgeo> oklofok, drunk-acty
03:47:45 <oklofok> wrong with what?
03:48:00 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to oklowhat.
03:48:00 <oklofok> ...what?
03:48:08 <oklowhat> Yes?
03:48:16 <oklofok> huh
03:48:20 <oklofok> i'm...
03:48:21 <oklofok> confused
03:48:26 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:26 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:26 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:27 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:27 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:28 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:28 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:28 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:29 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:29 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:29 <oklofok> PARTY TIME
03:48:41 <oklowhat> Obviously, I'll have to druink
03:48:45 <oklofok> so
03:48:57 <oklofok> maybe i should define something
03:49:13 <alise> define whores
03:49:28 <oklowhat> Cause whores to exist. Did I really just ype whores?
03:49:55 <oklowhat> I couldn't see my screen when I typed it, because a rubber hand was in the way
03:50:21 <oklofok> irreducibility of shift space X: for all u, v \in B(X), uwv \in B(X) for some w, where B(X) is the language of words occurring as subwords in the points of X
03:50:36 * oklowhat hits oklowhat with a subword
03:52:25 <oklofok> most of my definitions would require defining shift spaces, and i don't wanna do that because i think i've done it already
03:52:26 <cpressey> shift spaces, dear god
03:52:39 <oklowhat> SPACES
03:52:53 <alise> oklofok: if you're doing this for acting, stop. it isn't amusing
03:53:13 <oklofok> alise: what?
03:53:14 <oklofok> anyway
03:53:25 <cpressey> shift spaces are the bridge between discrete and continuous mathematics... if I am remembering correctly
03:53:32 <oklofok> yes, a bridge!
03:53:37 <cpressey> Well, one of the bridges anyway
03:53:41 <oklowhat> alise, did you mean me?
03:53:42 <oklofok> basically
03:53:50 <alise> oklofok: yes
03:53:52 <alise> erm
03:53:53 <alise> oklowhat: yes
03:53:56 <alise> sorry oklofok
03:54:01 <oklofok> ohhh
03:54:06 <oklofok> makes sense
03:54:10 <cpressey> /nick oklopop
03:54:17 * oklowhat seriously does feel giggly
03:54:21 <oklofok> so, to cpressey again, if you have a dynamical system, that is, some sort of space, and a continuous function on it
03:54:43 <oklofok> then you can, sort, of, model it using a shift space, in some cases
03:55:12 <oklofok> how you do this is you partition the continuous space in a finite number of subsets
03:55:14 -!- oklowhat has changed nick to Sgeo.
03:55:47 <oklofok> and then for a point, you record the bi-infinite sequence of subsets it lands in, when you apply the continuous function (we assume it's invertible, makes the theory a bit prettier)
03:56:17 <oklofok> this gives you a point in A^Z, if A is the set of those subsets partitioning the continuous space
03:56:43 <oklofok> and when you do this for all the points in the space
03:56:51 <oklofok> you get a subsets of A^Z
03:56:53 <oklofok> *subset
03:57:22 <oklofok> and that subset turns out to be a shift space!
03:58:12 <cpressey> I seem to remember things like regular languages over A to describe the behaviour of those continuous functions (like, if the curve always oscillates between two of the partitions, you have (AB)*)
03:58:16 <cpressey> It's cool stuff
03:58:38 <cpressey> ok, (AB)* was not the best choice, since A was already used
03:58:47 <oklofok> that's continuous => discrete, then we usually require that going the other way (taking a sequence in A^Z) always gives you exactly one point in the continuous space, this doesn't give you all the continuous space, usually, but it gives you a dense subset
03:58:53 <cpressey> if {a,b} subset A, then (ab)*
03:59:01 <cpressey> Oi
03:59:11 <Sgeo> oklofok, give me a tutorial someday
03:59:24 <cpressey> Going the other way is ... much harder to think about
03:59:28 <oklofok> Sgeo: it's happening already ;)
04:00:15 <Sgeo> I'm too tired and giggly to comprehend anything right now
04:00:21 <Sgeo> Well, giggly gone
04:01:07 <alise> oklofok: i graciously accept your birthday wishes
04:01:23 <oklofok> cpressey: (ab)* couldn't be the language of the shift space, but Y = (ab)* + b(ab)* + (ab)*a could, needs to be closed under factors; in any case yes, that could be the language of an oscillating curve, then you just need to take all the bi-infinite words such that their subwords are in Y, and you get the shift space
04:01:40 <oklofok> factors = subwords
04:02:02 <oklofok> so i believe you have been taught this same stuff
04:02:23 <cpressey> oklofok: I never took a course, but I did read some interesting books, which I half-understood.
04:02:33 * Sgeo can't wait to struggle to understand the log tomorrow
04:02:41 <cpressey> Stephen Smale, applications to hardware like disk drives, and stuff...
04:03:31 <oklofok> i haven't actually seen much of the discrete vs continuous stuff, a few definitions (half of which i already sort of gave), and one example of finding a markov partition (markov partition = partition where the language of the shift space happens to be of "finite type") for a space
04:04:25 <oklofok> shift space of finite type means a bi-infinite word is in the language iff all its subwords less than N in length are in a set of allowed words
04:04:40 <oklofok> N and the set of allowed words definining the shift space
04:04:45 <oklofok> *defining
04:04:52 <oklofok> cpressey: what books
04:04:57 <oklofok> oh
04:05:47 <Sgeo> Is there an uncountable infinite discreet space? A countably infinite continuous space? Or are these axiomatically tied in, or is there a theorem?
04:06:04 <oklofok> Sgeo: well, what does discrete mean?
04:06:15 <Sgeo> So definitionally, then
04:06:27 <cpressey> oklofok: Gah, I don't remember all of them. The math library was my half-understood playground at one point... let me think.
04:06:37 <oklofok> discreteness is defined in topology, and once you know the definition, those questions become trivial
04:06:45 <oklofok> if you use that definition
04:07:14 <oklofok> "continuous space" doesn't mean anything, rigorously speaking, afaik
04:07:22 <oklofok> well
04:07:28 <oklofok> maybe it could mean a perfect space
04:07:44 <oklofok> (no open set is singleton)
04:07:59 <cpressey> oklofok: This was one: http://www.amazon.com/Topology-Computation-Proceedings-Smalefest/dp/0387979328
04:08:15 <cpressey> Smale is a genius.
04:08:52 <oklofok> there are too many books out there, i've never even heard of that one :<
04:09:20 <oklofok> Sgeo: topologically speaking, a discrete space is one where every set is open
04:09:27 <oklofok> "Is there an uncountable infinite discreet space?"
04:09:32 <oklofok> let use construct one
04:09:38 <cpressey> I've always been interested in "the topology of computation" (ill-defined as it is,) so when I saw this book I picked it up
04:09:41 <oklofok> take an uncountably infinite set X
04:10:21 <oklofok> give it the discrete topology, giving us the topological space (X, 2^X) (set of open sets is just the powerset of X, set of all subsets)
04:10:42 <oklofok> then by definition it is discrete
04:10:52 <oklofok> and it's uncountable because X is
04:10:55 <alise> Sgeo: cpressey: http://i.imgur.com/iCSp3.png I WEEP
04:11:19 <oklofok> cpressey: do you know topology?
04:11:42 * Sgeo only knows it as "thingy where you don't tear or fold, but stretch"
04:11:49 <oklofok> alise: that one took a little bit of thinking
04:12:15 <Sgeo> alise, you presumably already consumed a green?
04:12:48 <Sgeo> Yeah, learn to work out which area is the absolutely last one you can go to
04:12:53 <Sgeo> Had to do that on an earlier level
04:13:18 <oklofok> Sgeo: sounds like that might describe topology, yes
04:13:33 <cpressey> oklofok: Only barely.
04:13:40 <oklofok> although it could describe linear algebra as well...
04:14:05 <Sgeo> I thought linear algebra was matrixes
04:14:26 <alise> <oklofok> let use construct one
04:14:26 <oklofok> linear algebra is linear transformations, matrices are an "implementation" of those
04:14:27 <alise> HAHAHA AN ERROR
04:14:31 <oklofok> *us
04:14:32 <oklofok> :(
04:14:49 <cpressey> I used to have the "it's all about stretching" understanding of topology. I now have the "it's all about limits" understanding.
04:15:24 <oklofok> i have the "there's a set and a collection of subsets that is closed under union and finite intersection, and the whole set and the empty set are in that collection" understanding
04:15:26 <Sgeo> I know very little topological math
04:15:56 <oklofok> i used to have the "topology is something cool and scary" understanding
04:15:56 <Sgeo> This is what I get for reading books geared towards laypeople
04:16:32 <Sgeo> That's pretty much all I've _ever_ read. Stuff geared towards laypeople
04:16:49 <cpressey> It seems to actually be kind of useless for looking at finite, discrete objects, like say computer programs. You have to treat the object as being infinite or continuous in some respect, I think.
04:17:10 <oklofok> i don't think topology admits an english explanation that is intuitive, unambiguous and at all true
04:17:43 <cpressey> oklofok: Have you read "Counterexamples in Topology"?
04:17:48 <oklofok> nope
04:18:00 <oklofok> been planning to buy it thought because it's famous
04:18:04 <oklofok> *though
04:18:05 <oklofok> grr
04:18:40 <cpressey> I found it entertaining even knowing very little about topology, because... well, counterexamples!
04:18:55 <Sgeo> oklofok is turning into not-actually-drunk me!
04:19:38 * Sgeo likes it when people turn into people
04:20:12 <cpressey> Hm, at the time I was also somewhat interested in... metric spaces? Something close to that. Something with "entourages".
04:20:30 <oklofok> the things with entourages are between topological spaces and metric spaces
04:20:34 <oklofok> they are called uniform spaces
04:20:41 <cpressey> That's it, uniform spaces.
04:20:54 <cpressey> I don't remember why I was interested in them, now :)
04:21:07 <oklofok> the idea is, you can't actually say how close two things are, like in metric spaces, but you can say "these two things are as close to each other are these other two are to each other", which you can't do in a topological space
04:21:50 <oklofok> of course, that comparison in quotes there only works if you do it "in some infinite way", a bit hard to explain what that means :P
04:21:55 <cpressey> right
04:23:13 <oklofok> you can't actually compare the distances; but you can like get closer to two points at the same rate, in some sense
04:23:19 <oklofok> i really just know the definition, if that...
04:24:35 <oklofok> err
04:24:38 <oklofok> maybe more like
04:24:47 <oklofok> you can get closer to an infinite amount of points at the same rate?
04:24:55 <oklofok> maybe i should skip the intuitive stuff
04:26:06 * oklofok has to wp definition
04:26:10 * oklofok doesn't remember
04:27:13 <Sgeo> oklofok, you'll have to direct me to some online resources
04:28:08 <oklofok> that's hard to do, i would really just recommend going to uni :\
04:28:23 <oklofok> but maybe i could be more helpful if you knew what you were looking for
04:28:56 <oklofok> for symbolic dynamics, "symbolic dynamics and coding" is an awesome book
04:30:28 <oklofok> although you probably can't read past chapter 3 if you don't know linear algebra, and you probably can't read past chapter 6 unless you're willing to spend a *lot* of time filling in details
04:30:47 <oklofok> (i spend about 1.5 hours on a proof today)
04:30:49 <oklofok> *spent
04:31:21 * cpressey blinks
04:32:07 <cpressey> I spent about that much time getting up to speed on Parsec (parser combinator library for Haskell)
04:32:52 <oklofok> well, i'm slow
04:32:58 <Sgeo> Is it possible to take both grad and undergrad courses as a grad?
04:33:34 <oklofok> in our university, you can do what the fuck you want
04:33:46 <oklofok> but probably you won't get them in your degree
04:34:20 <Sgeo> It should be as easy to learn math online as computer skills...
04:34:22 * Sgeo growls
04:34:36 <cpressey> Actually, I think I took about 2 hours, and most of the day before that, trying to decide if that was what I wanted to waste my time doing this weekend, or not - so I think I'm the one who's slow here :)
04:34:40 <Sgeo> Math is, even more than computer programming, something you can practice at home
04:35:08 <cpressey> Math is a way of thinking
04:35:13 <cpressey> I know that sounds soooooo cheesy
04:35:17 <coppro> indeed
04:35:36 * coppro starts uni in 9 days
04:35:49 <pikhq> cpressey: Cheesy but true.
04:35:50 * oklofok starts uni in 2 \o/
04:35:59 <oklofok> pikhq: guess what i'm taking this semester
04:36:04 * pikhq has been going for two weeks now
04:36:16 <oklofok> pikhq: lucky bastard
04:36:25 <pikhq> oklofok: And now I have a 4 day weekend.
04:36:37 <pikhq> Inexplicably, we get the day *after* labor day off as well.
04:37:10 <Sgeo> Well, math should be able to fulfill my Arts & Sciences requirements
04:37:13 <Sgeo> Here
04:37:16 <pikhq> Clearly, this is to add to the easiness of community college classes.
04:37:19 <Sgeo> Although it's not a science, so...
04:37:23 <pikhq> (mmm, cheap-ass semester)
04:38:26 <oklofok> Sgeo: if you are street smart and want to learn math, you should just take some random math book and start doing exercises like crazy. i can't really make myself do that, i make up for it by being able to stare at things for a long time.
04:38:40 <oklofok> pikhq: you didn't guess
04:38:42 <Sgeo> "street smart"?
04:39:01 <oklofok> Sgeo: i thought if i say smart, you interpret it as "if you're already good at math"
04:39:33 <Sgeo> I'm good in the sense that I comprehend it well.. at least, I think I do.
04:39:42 <oklofok> "have common sense"
04:39:50 <oklofok> if you ... and want to
04:39:52 <Sgeo> I remember nothing that I learned that's more advanced than the basics taught in Calc the Easy Way
04:40:05 * Sgeo distrusts common sense
04:40:41 <Sgeo> But I think I know what you mean
04:40:42 <oklofok> pikhq: hint: you could guess, others couldn't
04:41:48 <oklofok> Sgeo: calc the easy way sounds like a horrible idea
04:41:48 <pikhq> Restart terminal, all is well.
04:41:54 <pikhq> oklofok: 日本語?
04:42:01 * Sgeo hopes that his neighbors can't hear the sounds coming from his computer
04:42:05 <Sgeo> oklofok, o.O howso?
04:42:09 <oklofok> pikhq: hai
04:42:15 <Sgeo> Are you saying I massively screwed myself over?
04:42:25 <oklofok> (disclaimer: i didn't start yet)
04:43:13 <oklofok> for instance i don't actually know what you said :D
04:43:23 <pikhq> "Japanese".
04:43:29 <oklofok> i don't know any katakana or kanji, memorized all hiragana tho
04:43:44 <pikhq> oklofok: Also: any idea what the cirriculum for that class is like?
04:43:54 <pikhq> Curriculum, I mean.
04:43:59 <oklofok> well i know the book
04:44:00 <oklofok> it's...
04:44:06 <Sgeo> oklofok, hello?
04:44:09 <pikhq> There's a lot of awful Japanese programs. I'd like to see a good one.
04:44:27 <oklofok> integrated course in elementary japanese
04:44:31 <pikhq> ...
04:44:32 <pikhq> ...
04:44:40 <oklofok> :D
04:44:52 <pikhq> Genki?
04:44:55 <oklofok> Sgeo: oh sorry
04:44:59 <oklofok> pikhq: yes
04:45:00 <oklofok> ...
04:45:01 <oklofok> ...
04:45:01 <oklofok> ...
04:45:02 <oklofok> ?
04:45:02 <pikhq> That's quite slow.
04:45:19 <oklofok> pikhq: i noticed
04:45:34 <pikhq> Better than most other programs, though.
04:45:36 <oklofok> really all i care about is that i now have something to memorize with brain full of university energy
04:45:47 <oklofok> Sgeo: err, i'm not saying you screwed yourself over
04:46:12 <pikhq> (among other things, it *doesn't freaking have you use rômasì for long*)
04:46:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
04:46:36 <oklofok> but calculus is something that i encourage everyone to learn as hard a way as possible
04:46:40 <oklofok> party, oerjan
04:46:42 <oklofok> !
04:47:18 <oklofok> pikhq: romasi = english alph?
04:47:25 <oklofok> i mean, equivalents of
04:47:39 <pikhq> oklofok: "Roman letters", literal translation.
04:48:03 <pikhq> Also, without the diacritics that is completely incomprehensible.
04:48:20 <pikhq> (rōmaji in the "normal" Hepburn romanisation, BTW)
04:48:45 <pikhq> (aaaand rômazi in Nihonsiki and Kunreisiki)
04:48:56 <oklofok> so wait is the s voiced or not
04:49:14 <pikhq> Voiced.
04:49:33 <oklofok> err, but is it j or z :D
04:49:58 <pikhq> Hepburn romanisation is the one that is related with English pronounciation.
04:50:23 <oerjan> oklofok: COMM... wait, i already did that. FASC... darn, did that too. PIRATE!
04:50:23 <pikhq> In hiragana, that's ろーまじ.
04:50:30 <oklofok> i'm assuming japanese = lojban, shi = c, j = j, s = s, z = z
04:50:39 <oklofok> s/shi/sh/
04:50:48 <pikhq> oklofok: Close.
04:51:10 <pikhq> Not precise, but not off by much.
04:51:18 <oklofok> i haven't actually heard any japanese after learning any of it
04:51:54 <pikhq> I wish I had a microphone so I could record myself. As it is, I'll have to find a good example.
04:51:56 <oklofok> (because i started today and i don't watch anime)
04:52:22 <cpressey> oerjan: It's a pizza party with a pony parade!
04:52:47 <oklofok> this will probably be an interesting experience, because japanese is the first language i'm actually going to try to learn
04:53:11 <oklofok> everything else i've learned by accident
04:53:19 <oklofok> (in the classroom)
04:53:32 <oerjan> cpressey: a pizza party with a pony parade is no basis for a system of government
04:54:00 <oklofok> i wish i knew how to make hiragana
04:54:04 <Sgeo> pizzapartyocracy
04:54:07 <oklofok> then me and pikhq could be annoying together
04:54:37 <Sgeo> What was that FRC round with -ocracy where the least fit governed?
04:54:38 <oklofok> ohayoo gozaimasu!
04:55:19 <pikhq> oklofok: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR7RS90NmaM&feature=related Here, have something about a Japanese speech contest.
04:55:46 <pikhq> It's the first thing I found that was both natural and relatively simple to listen to.
04:55:55 * Sgeo sleeps on #esoteric
04:57:07 <oklofok> do i hear americaDJIN?
04:57:11 <oklofok> i mean D
04:57:17 * coppro pushes Sgeo off
04:57:38 <oklofok> hmm
04:57:48 <oklofok> why the fuck didn't i realize that's the natural thing to mean
04:57:52 <oklofok> damn lojban
04:57:53 * Sgeo wonders if his first introduction to nomic was FRC
04:58:14 <pikhq> Oh, right, lojban uses j like that.
04:58:42 <Sgeo> I remember how I found FRC: Someone had a link about learning to play 4-dimensional scrabble
04:58:45 <coppro> FRC is almost not a nomic
04:59:27 <Sgeo> It's possible that that link was on a nomic related page. If so, I'm still kost
04:59:28 <Sgeo> lost
05:00:04 <alise> coppro: it's just administrated by a nomic, and is a nomic-esque game
05:00:17 <coppro> yeah
05:01:36 <oklofok> pikhq: what's the clip about btw, idgi :D
05:02:38 <ais523> FRC is a nomic, but just a very weak one
05:03:15 <pikhq> oklofok: Starts with a short blurb on the speaker, and then it's the guy's speech about his various interactions in Japan. Kinda mundane.
05:03:28 <pikhq> Y'know. It's a speech contest for learners of Japanese. Boring shit.
05:03:43 <coppro> I didn't say it wasn't a nomic
05:03:51 <coppro> just close to not a nomic
05:04:34 <pikhq> It was just the best example of how clearly spoken Japanese *sounds* like that I could find on short notice is all.
05:05:09 <oklofok> yes just out of curiosity
05:05:22 <pikhq> (BTW, I should note: all the Japanese in there was in fairly clear Standard Japanese, and as such would sound "unaccented")
05:05:39 <pikhq> oklofok: "They do things different in Japan!"
05:05:44 <pikhq> Boring ass shit.
05:05:49 <oklofok> :D
05:06:34 <oklofok> i could make out america and japan, and ippon :D
05:06:48 <oklofok> well, okay a bit more
05:07:27 <pikhq> Only somewhat more interesting than your typical textbook adventures of John Smith and Ichirô Tanaka seeing temples and eating sushi.
05:07:40 <oklofok> sumisu
05:08:05 <pikhq> Ah, yes. Jōn Sumisu and Ichirō Tanaka.
05:10:17 <oklofok> don't forget mearii
05:10:26 <pikhq> Who could forget?
05:10:36 <oklofok> mearii san wa amerikajin desu
05:11:12 <alise> desu desu desu
05:11:56 <cpressey> OH
05:12:03 <cpressey> brainfuck mentioned in #haskell
05:12:15 <cpressey> You know the rules!
05:12:17 * cpressey takes a swig
05:12:34 <alise> oklofok: do you have a walkthrough for 64? >__>
05:12:35 <pikhq> Hai, mearī san kà hèikoku kara ki'ta no de, nihonkò tiȳo'to musùkasī tà to omo'teiru ne'.
05:13:00 <pikhq> Ketò sa, hètu ni musùkasikunai sè.
05:13:18 * pikhq loves non-standard romanisation
05:14:29 <oklofok> alise: no
05:15:00 <alise> oklofok: darn
05:15:03 <alise> :P
05:15:23 * pikhq は不標準なローマ字が大好きだ。
05:15:23 <oklofok> lost me at first "ka"
05:15:42 <oklofok> then again at "heikoku":D
05:15:44 <oklofok> *" :D
05:15:50 * oerjan takes a swig of water
05:15:51 <oklofok> maybe we should continue this after a few lessons
05:16:10 <pikhq> oklofok: "Yeah, because Mary came from America, she thinks that Japanese is hard, y'know? But really, it's not all that hard."
05:16:55 <oklofok> is "k "because"
05:17:02 <oklofok> *"k"
05:17:05 <pikhq> oklofok: BTW, the ` diacritic after a consonant is the ゙ in kana.
05:17:10 <oklofok> ohh
05:17:12 <oerjan> ka du sei
05:17:23 <oklofok> so what i'm used to seeing as "ga"
05:17:28 <pikhq> (in pikhq-romanisation)
05:17:57 <pikhq> And the - over a letter is the katakana ー, which elongates a vowel.
05:18:02 <pikhq> Erm.
05:18:07 <pikhq> ... Wait, I did it all wrong.
05:18:17 <pikhq> That should be ^.
05:18:23 <pikhq> - should be the small kana indicator.
05:18:34 <pikhq> I can't even do it right. XD
05:18:35 <oklofok> is kana the same as hiragana
05:18:45 <pikhq> Hiragana is one of two forms of kana.
05:18:46 <oklofok> er
05:18:50 <oklofok> oh okay
05:19:12 <pikhq> Here, lemme just stick that in Hiragana.
05:20:01 <oklofok> yay
05:20:23 <pikhq> はい、 めありい さん が べいこく から きたので、にほんご ちょっと むずかしい と 思っている ねっ。
05:20:36 <oklofok> i'm rather slow, but let's see
05:20:42 <pikhq> けど さ、 べつに むずかしくない ぜ。
05:21:05 <pikhq> Or, in normal Japanese: (:P)
05:21:22 <oklofok> also those are rather different-looking hiragana than the ones i've seen, so i'm even slower
05:21:36 <pikhq> Erm.
05:21:44 <pikhq> s/思っている/おもっている/
05:21:46 <pikhq> Sorry about that.
05:21:49 <oklofok> mainly they are smaller :P
05:21:58 <pikhq> はい、メアリーさんが米国から来たので、日本語がちょっと難しいと思っているねっ。
05:22:10 <pikhq> けどさ、別に難しくないぜ。
05:25:26 <oklofok> so okay
05:25:31 <oklofok> oh
05:25:39 <oklofok> (i got to the part you corrected)
05:25:41 <oklofok> (:D)
05:30:12 <oklofok> haha
05:30:27 <oklofok> yay i read it without understanding it.
05:32:17 <cpressey> Project! Term-rewriting language with strict typing. Describe the type system with rewriting rules!
05:33:35 <oklofok> (sii)(sii)
05:34:10 * oklofok tries to sleep again ->
05:36:16 <pikhq> I appear to have come down with a cold!
05:36:18 <pikhq> Bitching!
05:36:49 <oerjan> a bitching cold, the worst kind
05:38:47 * pikhq goes to get some cold medicine and munch.
05:43:33 <alise> <cpressey> Project! Term-rewriting language with strict typing. Describe the type system with rewriting rules!
05:43:34 <alise> I did this
05:43:36 <alise> sort of
05:43:57 <oerjan> the type system got terminally rewritten
05:45:00 <cpressey> Rho was sort of supposed to have this in a nasty unclear way.
05:45:43 <alise> cpressey: the problem is, what is typed?
05:45:45 <alise> there are no functions
05:45:48 <alise> so it's hard to imagine what you type
05:46:22 <alise> mine had functions initially being (forall a, b, c, ... a|(a,b)|(a,b,c)|... -> forall r, r)
05:46:23 <alise> sort of thing
05:46:26 <alise> and then they got refined gradually
05:47:13 * pikhq wants to breath again dammi
05:47:15 <pikhq> dammit
05:47:49 <oerjan> breathing is _so_ last millennium
05:48:47 * oerjan wonders if "... is _so_ last ..." is _so_ last millennium
05:52:21 <pikhq> Nö, büt yöü nëëd tö mäkë ït mörë mëtäl.
05:52:43 <oerjan> Ö KÄY
05:53:49 <pikhq> :)
06:02:18 <alise> oklofok: CHALLENGE: COMPLETE XJUMP
06:02:48 <Sgeo> Is the graph of e^xi just a circle?
06:03:31 <Sgeo> erm
06:03:43 <Sgeo> Ok, Wolfram alpha has the real and imaginary parts be sin-like
06:03:57 <Sgeo> Actually, that's kind of obvious >.>
06:04:05 <Sgeo> real is cos, imag is sine
06:04:24 <Sgeo> How would it look on a nice 3d graph, though?
06:05:31 <alise> http://dame.dyndns.org/misc/xjump/
06:05:38 <alise> Anyone who can get 100 on this is a god.
06:05:38 <oerjan> Sgeo: ...like a spiral?
06:05:55 <oerjan> *helix
06:06:10 <Sgeo> alise, why are you awake?
06:06:34 <alise> Sgeo: Why shouldn't I be?
06:06:45 <Sgeo> Because it's late at night for you?
06:07:15 <alise> So?
06:11:29 <alise> Sgeo: ?
06:11:49 -!- lament has joined.
06:11:52 <lament> hello
06:12:28 <alise> hello
06:12:30 <alise> who the hell are YOU
06:12:31 <lament> i forgot this channel existed! until somebody randomly mentioned miss piggy.
06:12:34 <oerjan> dammit nosebleed
06:12:44 <alise> lament: ah yes, the banned one.
06:13:14 <oerjan> i mean, hi lament
06:13:17 <lament> she's banned?
06:13:20 <alise> unless oerjan unbanned (s)h/it; I forget
06:13:33 <alise> lament: yes, she spammed "FUCK YOU" for about 50 lines
06:13:37 <lament> haha
06:13:41 <oerjan> not currently banned, no
06:13:50 <alise> after showing clear signs of utter mental insanity several times before and basically freaking out on everyone else
06:13:58 <alise> we were at the 2 breakdowns/day stage
06:14:06 <alise> lament: DON'T SAY SHE SHE'LL GET ANGRY
06:14:08 <cpressey> lament!!!!
06:14:14 <lament> cpressey!!!!!
06:14:18 <alise> (she yelled at me and augur for PRESUMING HER GENDER)
06:14:25 <alise> lament cpressey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06:15:28 <cpressey> lament: I've been wondering where you were...
06:15:55 * Sgeo begins mentally playing that song from Falcon's Eye
06:16:25 <alise> dfgsdfgojdifgoisfdjg it's 6am
06:16:28 <lament> cpressey: after getting a job as a programmer, i lost all interest in programming
06:16:33 <alise> Sgeo: why have you played falcon's eye?
06:16:40 <lament> esoteric or not
06:16:41 <cpressey> lament: Good grief. I know what that's like
06:16:45 <Sgeo> I haven't [much]
06:16:56 <Sgeo> lament, stop trying to convince me that alise is right
06:17:04 <alise> lament: it's a good thing that nobody talks about programming languages here, then
06:17:10 <lament> oh good
06:17:15 -!- augur has joined.
06:17:16 <Sgeo> I should go look for my phone
06:17:22 <alise> lament: both you and oklofok came back on the same day
06:17:23 <alise> what a delight
06:17:31 <cpressey> Yeah, it's mostly about Japanese and how Sgeo is drunk.
06:17:38 <augur> i have a dildo that smells like jones strawberry lime soda. just fyi.
06:17:49 <lament> oh, i see.
06:17:49 <alise> Hey!
06:17:54 <alise> And the gay sex is back!
06:17:55 <alise> Well, the sex.
06:17:59 <alise> And augur's gay.
06:18:14 <alise> Captain, I hypothesise that we are, in fact, going BACKWARDS through the fourth dimension... that is to say, time.
06:18:39 <alise> If we do not take action soon, we will find ourselves in a time when there IS no #esoteric, and the process will be irreversible.
06:18:59 <alise> And it's 6am, so I'm talking schizophrenically. Just like old times ...
06:19:07 <lament> the direction of decreasing entropy? sounds pretty nice
06:19:38 <Sgeo> I thought we established that I'm not actually drunk?
06:19:43 <Sgeo> No matter how drunk I may seem
06:19:58 <alise> lament: Yes... but increasing... PRIMITIVENESS.
06:20:33 <Sgeo> Maybe we can go back before PHP was invented. Or before X was invented
06:20:40 <Sgeo> Stop these atrocities from being committed
06:21:00 <alise> Captain! I'm picking up unusual sensor readings! It appears that, as our "bubble" of #esoteric is travelling forwards in time compared to the backwards flow of outside the bubble -- otherwise, we would experience things as normal, both sides being switched -- we are ADDING entropy, yet as entropy OUTSIDE the channel is decreasing, there is nowhere for it to go!
06:21:03 <cpressey> Well, I'm trying to compile C code under Amiga Workbench 1.3. That has to count for something.
06:21:15 <alise> I estimate that entropy will take over our channel entirely in... 3.6 hours.
06:21:24 <alise> What shall we do, Captain?!?!?!?!?!
06:22:27 <oerjan> this may appear like a shocking and unexpected suggestion to you, but if the polarity of entropy is currently the wrong way...
06:23:19 <alise> What are you suggesting, Number One?
06:23:29 <alise> (Pretend the captain said that. Whoever e is.)
06:23:47 <oerjan> We might then try to reverse the polarity.
06:24:43 <cpressey> lament: At one time, you implemented Thue in Javascript -- is this true?
06:24:49 <lament> yes
06:25:58 <cpressey> http://web.archive.org/web/20031210145310js_/http://cyberspace.org/~lament/thue.js
06:26:18 <cpressey> lament: What license can I consider this code to be under?
06:26:22 <alise> oerjan: It could work. However, there has been an overload in the temporal dynamics systems, and the entropy explosion would be immense. We would have to exit the bubble, exposing ourselves to high levels of positron radiation.
06:26:23 <lament> and the corresponding .html
06:26:24 <oerjan> you and your time-traveling powers
06:26:30 <alise> The hull would likely collapse.
06:26:56 <Sgeo> alise, you could have written technobabble for Voyager!
06:26:57 * Sgeo ducks
06:27:15 <lament> cpressey: er, public domain i suppose
06:27:21 <lament> no wait
06:27:28 <lament> you need to pay me $10000000000 to use it
06:27:36 <cpressey> OH SNAP!
06:27:41 <cpressey> Ah well.
06:27:47 <oerjan> alise: maybe if we _also_ reverse parity, switching matter and antimatter. this might be achieved by taking a detour through a mirror dimension.
06:27:54 <cpressey> I don't *think* I have $10000000000...
06:28:11 <alise> Sgeo: "It is made of anti-time. And it is giving off anti-time radiation."
06:28:13 <cpressey> Because I suspect I'd be a lot happier, if I did.
06:28:37 <alise> oerjan: Grapple with the Terran Empire? But the production team forgot to switch the main titles!
06:29:52 <lament> cpressey: money can't buy happiness
06:30:31 <oerjan> alise: but if we do it _before_ reversing polarity, while entropy is still decreasing - then they would actually appear to be trying to help us. in a weird way.
06:30:32 <alise> But it can buy an awful lot of booze and hookers!
06:30:34 <lament> i know this because after the last guy to use my Thue interpreter paid me $10000000000, i'm not really any happier
06:31:00 <alise> oerjan: Removing fatal phaser shots from our cold, dead bodies! Interesting.
06:31:09 <alise> Let's just wait for someone to claim to be the captain and give it the go-ahead.
06:31:20 <oerjan> ok
06:32:37 <cpressey> Woo! Passed level 10!
06:33:18 <Sgeo> I may need to charge -$10 dollars for users of PSOX
06:33:32 <cpressey> Actually, passed level 12 now.
06:34:36 <ais523> lament: how many bits is the number in which that usage charge is stored? and is it signed or unsigned?
06:35:13 <cpressey> To compile C code on the Amiga, you need headers for the AmigaOS API. They're not freely distributable, but you can recreate them from the "FD" files that ship with AmigaBASIC, with the help of a utlity program called FixFD which appears on Fred Fish disk #183.
06:35:30 <Sgeo> Night all
06:36:36 <alise> Goodnight.
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06:40:38 <cpressey> lament: Dare I ask -- what language(s) are you programming in, in your job?
06:41:13 <lament> objc++ at the moment
06:41:38 <lament> the coolest thing i did recently was try to debug postscript
06:42:31 <cpressey> I know C++, and I know /of/ ObjC, but I didn't know they could be... combined. But I know that Postscript is much cooler than both :)
06:43:22 <lament> they're just combined the natural way
06:43:35 <lament> the resulting language has two completely separate object systems
06:43:56 <lament> two separate exception handling systems, even two boolean types (bool and BOOL)
06:45:20 <cpressey> Oh! The joy!
06:46:05 <zzo38> Sometimes C is used, or C++, or Objective C, or even Objective C++. But I prefer Enhanced CWEB (compiling in C mode). There is also D, and is there Objective D++?
06:46:08 <lament> yeah, it's not so bad in practice
06:46:51 <lament> just parts of code are written in straight c++, and parts in objc, and interfacing them is easy
06:46:57 <zzo38> But it can be sometimes useful to mix things from different program languages
06:50:13 <zzo38> But sometimes it cannot be done, using the normal way..... I have sometimes found myself wanting to use GOTO in program languages that doesn't have it, use some features of Forth in other programming langauges, and even once INTERCAL stuff!
06:51:19 <oerjan> i had sort of heard the point of D was to get _rid_ of C++'s object system
06:51:29 <oerjan> (well one point at least)
06:51:46 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I think that was one point, there are others, too.
06:52:01 <oerjan> which means Objective D++ makes no sense
06:52:50 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I know, but I am a bit crazy and I think of crazy ideas sometimes
06:53:10 <oerjan> *GASP*
06:53:12 <zzo38> To me, Enhanced CWEB is good enough for these kind of things, Objective C++ is not needed
06:53:31 <cpressey> I may be wrong about FixFd. I think the header files it creates are for assembly-language programs. :/ But I know I've done this before, there is a tool out there somewhere that can do it.
06:53:32 <zzo38> But I have nothing against if someone else wants to use a different program language
06:54:36 <zzo38> So, none of you have opinion about TeXnicard, because you only use LaTeX? Is that correct?
06:55:32 <cpressey> I don't even use LaTeX.
06:55:36 <cpressey> At best, I use HTML.
06:55:50 <cpressey> With things like a &equiv; b &union; c.
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06:58:32 <zzo38> For simple on-screen formatting, HTML works OK. And even for more complicated interactive stuff, HTML can be used (but it should not be overused!). HTML files can be printed as well. But TeX is more better, for many things!
06:58:55 <cpressey> I found a "Munching Squares" program for the Amiga!
06:59:17 <zzo38> cpressey: You probably can, they are generally simple programs and can be found for various systems
07:00:06 <cpressey> zzo38: I used LaTeX a long time ago. With the AMS extensions (AMSLaTeX?) It was a huge pain to set up on the OS I was using at the time (FreeBSD).\
07:01:44 <zzo38> I make TeXnicard because there are many things about Magic Set Editor which I do not like.
07:02:37 <zzo38> So, TeXnicard can be seen as one alternative program that can be used for a similar function.
07:03:12 <zzo38> TeXnicard allows you to combine TeX, METAFONT, Forth, ImageMagick, and WEB.
07:11:04 <zzo38> When I write a program, it is the computer's job to automate everything but it is the user's job to think for themself. This is contrary to many modern programs, in which the computer tries to do both jobs, which isn't very good in my opinion.
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07:18:34 <cpressey> I actually think the thing that translates .FD -> .h is called "LibTool", on Fish Disk #393. But, it's late, I could be wrong.
07:19:29 <cpressey> Also, I'm sure I'm the only one who cares :D
07:20:21 <cpressey> Got a hankerin' to be buildin' me some C programs on an operating system that's been obsolete for 15 years!
07:22:11 <cpressey> Hm, I wonder if there were any Forths for the Amiga, on those Fish disks?
07:24:10 <cpressey> Heh! False appeared on Fred Fish Disk #885! I did not know that.
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07:49:16 <zzo38> BytePusher is not pure non-arithmetic, because addition is still required to execute an instruction.
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09:37:27 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if for all acts of pedantry there exists a Wikipedian who will try to put it into force
09:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, agree?
09:38:17 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i guess the big well that's not too bad but
09:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll take that as a "yes".
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11:17:07 <oklofok> in my dream, alise and cpressey sent me a postcard that was an invite to come explore the "natural hoovers" of another universe (natural hoover being a technical term for an inverse volcano)
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12:12:25 <Vorpal> oklofok, rather unusual dream
12:12:50 <oklofok> alise: i got 130
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12:19:28 <oklofok> Vorpal: there were less unusual elements, like things falling in the ocean and me having to dive quickly to catch the important items
12:19:49 <oklofok> i'm sure that means i'm searching for long lost love
12:20:03 <olsner> or maybe it means you're turning batshit insane
12:20:46 <oklofok> when i got the postcard, the first thing i said was "what the fuck, i have to pay a receiver's fee?!?"
12:21:12 <oklofok> (i was recently in scotland, where phones start doing that)
12:21:17 <olsner> (my sister rebooted my computer trying to turn on the screens, so I'm missing some history, like the actual description of the dream)
12:21:20 <oklofok> (so that one was obvious)
12:21:27 <olsner> it's also how SMS:es work in the US
12:21:41 <oklofok> 8|
12:21:47 <oklofok> so what people can just make you pay
12:21:55 <olsner> yep, as I understand it's free to send them, but it costs to receive them
12:22:07 <oklofok> but do they have the option of not receiving them
12:22:27 <oklofok> i mean otherwise if you give someone your phone number, they can just make you pay millions of dollars for fun
12:22:40 <olsner> I guess they have to, it'd be crazy otherwise
12:23:04 <oklofok> well then again i heard all americanos are stupids so?
12:24:18 <olsner> well, obviously... so maybe no-one's figured out how to exploit it yet
12:24:37 <olsner> that would explain how a system like that still works
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12:48:52 <oklofok> yrep
12:57:23 <Vorpal> } else if (c != KEY_VIEW);
12:57:23 <Vorpal> goto gotkey;
12:57:26 <Vorpal> ugh
12:57:44 <Vorpal> and I think that is obfuscated, rather than buggy
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13:42:10 * oerjan lols at the darths & droids punchline
13:45:41 <oklofok> FUCK YOU
13:45:42 <oklofok> FUCK YOU
13:45:43 <oklofok> FUCK YOU
13:45:44 <oklofok> FUCK YOU
13:45:45 <oklofok> FUCK YOU
13:45:46 <oklofok> FUCK YOU
13:45:46 <oklofok> FUCK YOU
13:45:53 <oklofok> what is it btw?
13:46:12 <oerjan> oklofok: are you trying to get banned?
13:46:26 <oklofok> maybe?!?
13:47:57 <oklofok> Sgeo_: my solution to megavideo's time limit: connect via uni
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15:08:52 <nooga> skoml
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15:36:51 <nooga> i hate circuit analysis
15:39:11 <oklopol> what kind of circuit analysis
15:39:36 <oklopol> the kind where you solve 15 variable equations manually
15:39:50 <oklopol> alise: i'm a deity
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15:42:47 <oerjan> god of extreme overconfidence
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15:55:02 <alise> 23:49:16 <zzo38> BytePusher is not pure non-arithmetic, because addition is still required to execute an instruction.
15:55:04 <alise> orly?
15:57:32 <cpressey> oklopol: We didn't want to keep the exquisite pleasures of these natural hoovers all to ourselves!
15:58:11 <cpressey> alise: (Don't tell him about how my brother is in the natural hoover tourism trade.)
15:58:43 <alise> W h a t
15:59:08 <oklopol> :P
15:59:36 <oerjan> alise: don't worry about that, natural hoovers suck something terrible
16:00:04 <oklopol> i don't actually know what they suck
16:01:06 <oerjan> lots of rocks and the occasional tourist, i think
16:04:03 <oklopol> :P
16:10:11 <oerjan> googling for natural hoover gives a page about tornados http://82sluggowin.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/if-you-cannot-find-shelter-lay-face-down-in-a-ditch-and-cover-your-head-with-your-hands/
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16:27:34 <cpressey> I'm an idiot. Here I am going through all these contortions to find heirloom AmigaOS API header files, when if all I'm going to do is compile ANSI C sources on the platform, I shouldn't need them!
16:28:01 <oklopol> HOLY SHIT TORNADO WARNING!
16:28:17 <oklopol> that would make an awesome meme
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16:43:40 * pikhq mutters
16:44:18 <alise> wat
16:44:20 <pikhq> oklopol: BTW: good work on learning hiragana before the class starts. That alone gets rid of most of the egregious pronunciation errors.
16:44:26 <pikhq> alise: Sick is all.
16:45:23 * pikhq hates how some courses use nothing but rômasì.
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16:46:32 <alise> is s pronounced as English j?
16:46:41 <alise> or like sh, or?
16:47:22 <pikhq> alise: The ` diacritic notes that the "si" mora is voiced. And because the "si" mora is pronounced more like "shi", the voiced version is more like "ji".
16:47:59 <alise> "Jit," said Shon.
16:48:05 <pikhq> alise: This is, of course, all in non-standard romanisation. One which follows Japanese orthography a bit closer than is needed. :P
16:48:54 <pikhq> (among other things, it makes conjugations and common pronunciation changes in words significantly easier than standard romanisation schemes.)
16:49:20 <pikhq> (... At the expense of being completely unuseful to the unwashed masses)
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16:51:44 <alise> pikhq: ROMANISE THIS: ドット新死エディション
16:52:19 <pikhq> alise: Tò'to sinn si etèīsiȳonn
16:52:36 <alise> Why do the _'d letters show as sans here >_<
16:52:38 <alise> Stupid font
16:52:47 <alise> (And bigger too)
16:52:55 <alise> *(And bigger, too)
17:00:34 <madbrain2> totto new death edition?
17:01:02 <wareya> As much as I love C, its structures suck.
17:01:02 <pikhq> madbrain2: "Dot -- Super Death Edition".
17:01:20 <pikhq> Hey, wait, I've got compose.
17:01:29 <pikhq> "Dot — Super Death Edition"
17:01:47 <madbrain2> shows as a box
17:02:02 <pikhq> madbrain2: You fail at Unicode.
17:02:09 <pikhq> Can't even display English text.
17:02:58 <pikhq> Wait...
17:03:13 <pikhq> “Dot — Super Death Edition”
17:03:14 <pikhq> There we go.
17:03:36 <madbrain2> 3 boxes now
17:03:49 <madbrain2> what symbols are you using?
17:04:57 <pikhq> Right quotation mark, em dash, left quotation mark.
17:05:47 <cpressey> Dude, even *I* can see *em dashes*.
17:06:04 <cpressey> Although, L and R quotation marks look the same to me :/
17:06:15 <pikhq> cpressey: That's just a font matter.
17:07:23 <madbrain2> good old fixedsys
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17:07:36 <cpressey> madbrain2: ouch
17:07:42 <cpressey> memories
17:09:34 <pikhq> madbrain2: Make it stop.
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17:13:33 <alise> madbrain2: die
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17:16:41 <cpressey> W00T
17:16:51 <cpressey> I just build 'cat' under AmigaOS 1.3
17:16:55 <cpressey> *built
17:17:26 <cpressey> (I needed to build a fully profiled version because I haven't yet found a non-profiling-enabled amiga13.lib)
17:17:48 <madbrain2> what's wrong with fixedsys?
17:18:18 <madbrain2> It's like twice as good as any version of courier new
17:18:34 <alise> yeah that's ... not saying ... much ... ... anything ...
17:20:25 <oklopol> consolas <3
17:21:19 <madbrain2> oklopol: might be an interesting choice yeah
17:23:17 <alise> oklopol: do you still have everything in that theme
17:23:22 <alise> white on black consolas
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17:23:55 <oklopol> no. computer broked so it went as i mentioned.
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17:24:25 <alise> oklopol: i was just hoping the timeline was restored :'(
17:24:36 <kareem> hi
17:24:45 <alise> hi.
17:24:59 <kareem> how r u
17:25:07 <oklopol> so alise did you get those new wishing stones and witch wands we were talking about for our esoterica evening
17:25:16 <alise> ABSOLUTELY
17:25:21 <alise> I sacrificed ALL the goats.
17:25:25 <alise> All of them. Every single one.
17:25:31 <oklopol> ehm
17:25:32 <alise> kareem: in case you can't tell, we're talking about programming. hello.
17:25:43 <oklopol> ...didn't we talk about doing that TOGETHER
17:26:07 <alise> I thought you were going to find the holy human sacrifice...
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17:34:09 <cpressey> Drat, I didn't even get a chance to tell him that DICE isn't handling the insanity that is RUBE.c very well
17:35:06 <cpressey> Oh! GURU
17:36:18 <Sgeo_> alise, what if you scared off someone who _was_ interested in esoteric programming languages?
17:36:24 <Sgeo_> Actually, I should blame oklopol
17:36:41 <oklopol> we have too many people here already
17:36:56 <oklopol> someone should be banned
17:36:58 <oklopol> imo
17:36:58 <alise> Sgeo_: who cares
17:37:22 <alise> yes let's ban oklopol
17:37:41 <oklopol> that would teach me to speak crapshit
17:37:55 <fizzie> From somewhere, don't remember where: "Of course non-English speakers often want special characters. The problem is there are too many of them (characters, not non-English speakers)."
17:39:48 <pikhq> fizzie: There's plenty of special characters in English, you naïve fool.
17:40:32 <fizzie> But do English speakers really *want* them?
17:41:19 <pikhq> Some do.
17:41:43 <cpressey> Define "special"
17:42:42 <fizzie> IIRC, in the context of the original quote "special" would mean "non-ASCII"; but really, I don't remember where it was from.
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17:48:53 <alise> The café was staffed by naïve fools; I had no hope of gaining their coöperation.
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17:53:59 <cpressey> Once again, I am an idiot. "Note that you may compile 1.3 programs with the 2.0 amiga.lib as long as you avoid 2.0-specific calls."
17:54:06 <cpressey> Once again, I am an idiot. "Note that you may compile 1.3 programs with the 2.0 amiga.lib as long as you avoid 2.0-specific calls."
17:54:27 <cpressey> And an idiot a third time for repeating myself.
17:56:53 <cpressey> Alas. Dice is still generating assembly which it cannot itself assemble.
18:06:03 <Vorpal> hm the signal value in dBm for wlan networks is always negative isn't it?
18:06:21 <Vorpal> like: -60 dBm or similar
18:07:52 <Vorpal> so why did it claim 4dBm for one network in the list of networks... in iwlist scanning output that is. Presumably a fluke since doing a second scan showed a more usual value
18:08:33 <fizzie> Wikipedia's helpful table has "-10 to -30 dBm" as a typical maximum for wifi. 0 dBm would mean 1 mW of power; the same table lists that as the typical power of Bluetooth radio at 1 m distance.
18:08:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, doing a second scan had it at -88 dBm
18:08:57 <cpressey> (well, bef.c and maentw.c-with-tweaks compile, but that's not much of a joy since they were originally developed under dice)
18:09:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, 4 dBm seems rather unlikely
18:10:38 <fizzie> It does, especially if it's at -88 dBm "normally".
18:12:29 <Vorpal> ah yes, the noise ratio seems strange too, was at -40 dBm at that point, which is odd, since my card doesn't report the noise...
18:12:48 <Vorpal> (it always report -127 dBm for the noise)
18:12:53 <Vorpal> (except here it seems)
18:13:36 <cpressey> w00t, sally2c compiles! Getting it to run, and seeing if the code it generates compiles too, is another matter...
18:13:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, is sally some esolang?
18:14:15 <cpressey> No, no. God forbid I be on-topic here.
18:14:23 <Vorpal> cpressey, XD
18:14:30 <Vorpal> cpressey, so what is sally2c then
18:14:56 <cpressey> It's a compiler for a language I designed in the late 90's
18:15:05 <Vorpal> cpressey, you designed a non-esolang?
18:15:36 <cpressey> -_-
18:16:04 <Vorpal> oh that about it not being an esolang was a joke then?
18:16:19 <fizzie> The phone's /proc/net/wireless lists -46 and -95 (presumably dBm) for "level" and "noise" when the phone's ~1.5 m from the wlan access point.
18:16:39 <oklopol> cpressey never meant any of his languages to be esolangs, they were just ahead of their time. that's why, this time, cpressey waited 20 years before making a compiler
18:16:50 <oklopol> *as
18:16:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, too close will cause problems too iirc
18:17:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and, how good is the built in antenna?
18:17:20 <oklopol> well i guess it isn't exactly "late 2010's" yet but anyway
18:17:34 <Vorpal> judging from the quality of wlan on other phones, it would be rather bad
18:17:37 <oklopol> so maybe cpressey is just one decade smarter than the rest of us
18:18:13 <cpressey> I design languages. Some of them are indisputably esoteric. Some of them are not indisputably so.
18:18:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: No clue, but from anecdotal evidence, I think it gets better wlan reception than my iBook. And definitely better than one PCMCIA wlan card, but then again that was one pretty horrible card.
18:18:32 <cpressey> I wrote the compiler for Sally back in the 90's too, but I'm only now trying to compile it for the Amiga.
18:18:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm okay.
18:19:19 <cpressey> oklopol: Maybe I'm kind of like Sousa, who meant all of his marches to be romantic love songs, but they turned out to be... marches
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18:19:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, not sure about ibooks but based on casual observation macbooks tend to have rather good built in wlan. Same for thinkpads as well.
18:20:56 <oklopol> cpressey: maybe he had never been in love
18:20:58 <cpressey> Sgeo_: Wait, does LambdaMOO have anything to do with functional programming? Or did they put "Lambda" in the name for no reason?
18:21:45 <alise> cpressey: But Sally is crap!
18:21:45 <alise> >_>
18:21:56 <alise> cpressey: Nothing to do with FP as far as I know.
18:22:01 <Sgeo_> It's been a while since I looked at the language. Not sure if you cna write map in it. It's much more like a .. Self thing than functional
18:22:07 <Sgeo_> prototype-based
18:22:32 <Sgeo_> LambdaMOO is a specific moo
18:22:34 <Sgeo_> not a language
18:25:25 <cpressey> alise: yeah yeah
18:25:54 <cpressey> alise: it's written in C, is my main constraint. Apparent rube.c is too complex to be compiled by dice.
18:26:25 <cpressey> Sgeo_: I figured it was a MOO, but thought maybe its scripting language was Lisp, or something
18:30:10 <cpressey> alise: Sally 2 will not be crap. OTOH, it will probably not be called Sally :/
18:30:41 <alise> cpressey: X-D
18:32:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, which platform was DICE for?
18:34:07 <cpressey> Vorpal: AmigaOS
18:34:15 <Vorpal> ah
18:35:57 <cpressey> and sally2c runs and generates C code and dice can compile that code and the example programs run and I can compute factorial with it! So my nominal goal for the weekend of "compile one of my languages that wasn't developed on the Amiga, on an Amiga," has been completed
18:36:39 <cpressey> now back to Dot Action 2
18:37:33 <cpressey> alise: At level 18 or so. Need cheat code! Computer spontaneously shut down earlier.
18:37:48 <olsner> sounds like a nice weekend goal
18:37:49 <alise> cpressey: http://jayisgames.com/archives/2007/04/dot_action_2.php#walkthrough
18:37:59 <alise> olsner: Dot Action 2 is a LIFE goal
18:38:11 <olsner> alise: I meant the amiga one
18:38:22 <alise> I KNOW
18:39:43 <cpressey> alise: Shweet.
18:39:47 <olsner> but, but ... then why did you sound like you didn't?
18:40:37 <cpressey> oh god i forgot stage 18 is horrible
18:41:07 <alise> Dude this shit is easy :|
18:41:15 <olsner> I don't care about dot action 2, what is dot action 2 and why are you talking in all-caps?
18:41:39 <alise> olsner: Dot Action 2 is http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/ and it is the only thing that matters.
18:42:35 * Sgeo_ pushes alise onto a yellow dot
18:42:37 <alise> It is a simple game: collect the blue dots by running with the arrow keys and jumping with space. The yellow/orange dots kill you unless you get a red dot, which lasts until the ZET timer runs out. The green dot flips the entire playfield upside-down. Grey blocks are water, and you can swim in them by jumping.
18:42:39 <cpressey> alise: Timing the spacebar in the 1-cell-deep water? Maybe for you!
18:42:42 <alise> If the time runs out, you lose.
18:42:52 <alise> If you fall down past the bottom of the level, you lose.
18:43:06 <alise> cpressey: No timing required.
18:43:10 <olsner> ok, I've loaded the page, so how do you start the game?
18:43:13 <alise> Beat you spacebar to death.
18:43:23 <alise> olsner: Press space in the Flash until you get to the level selection screen.
18:43:34 <olsner> oooh, *space*
18:43:34 <alise> The number on the bottom is the NNN-NNN save code; use the second menu item to load this again.
18:43:37 <alise> (It changes each level.)
18:43:49 <alise> olsner: Enter pauses; you can continue or end the level.
18:43:54 <alise> And yes, it gets much, MUCH harder.
18:43:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:44:02 <alise> There are 100 levels and 8 further bonus levels. You will die.
18:44:18 <cpressey> Many, many times, you will die.
18:45:19 <alise> I am on to stage 66. There are many ahead of me, yet I am already nearly spent.
18:46:46 <olsner> I almost got to the end of level 1 but then I fell through the gap in the floor, so I think I'll just give up here
18:47:03 <alise> ...
18:47:08 <alise> Many have said that.
18:47:12 <alise> You will be playing again soon.
18:47:33 <olsner> how? I have forgotten the address
18:48:06 <alise> http://dotaction.fizzlebot.com/
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18:49:04 <Sgeo_> ideone.com has support for Factor. It also hasn support for Falcon
18:49:34 <cpressey> Sgeo_: Clearly we need a "Falctorn"
18:49:49 <oklopol> maybe a couple levs
18:50:09 <alise> oklopol: wat
18:52:44 <cpressey> There must be an implementation of Falctorn which runs on the BBC Micro, because "Acorn" is also embedded in that word.
18:54:12 <cpressey> Actually I've never played with any of that RISC OS stuff.
18:54:46 <alise> Acorn has nothing to do with the BBC Micro...
18:54:49 * Phantom_Hoover really ought to find out what Factor is
18:55:00 <Phantom_Hoover> They *made* the BBC Micro.
18:55:23 <alise> Oh, they did? Okay.
18:56:07 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Factor is to Forth as Haskell is to Lisp. Except, I'm lying.
18:56:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Your ignorance makes Chris Curry cry.
18:57:38 <Sgeo_> *Chris* Curry?
18:57:59 * Phantom_Hoover really really hopes that was his name
18:58:05 <cpressey> Any relation to Haskell, I wonder
18:58:25 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Wikipedia seems to think it was
18:58:32 <cpressey> is
18:58:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Good.
18:59:25 * Sgeo_ thought it was Haskell Curry for some reason >.>
18:59:52 <Sgeo_> Oh, two people sharing the same name
18:59:53 <Sgeo_> Ok
19:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> HOW DARE THEY
19:00:49 <alise> haskell is named after haskell curry, obviously
19:00:54 <alise> </obvious>
19:00:56 <cpressey> alise: Are you still pro-picoLisp? (Because I can't think for myself, and I need to know if a language has the Alise Stamp of Doesn't-Entirely-Suck before I start bothering with it)
19:01:24 <alise> cpressey: It's certainly interesting. Read the wiki; all of it. http://www.picolisp.org/5000/-2.html (It's not very big.)
19:01:26 <cpressey> Two people sharing a surname? UNHEARD OF
19:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Elite used two display modes at once.
19:01:44 <Phantom_Hoover> This makes it awesome.
19:02:03 <alise> cpressey: The front page, http://software-lab.de/radical.pdf, "Articles & Essays", a lot of the documentation, and the part of the book that has been written are all interesting.
19:02:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, Elite in general is awesome.
19:02:21 <alise> cpressey: And this forum post: http://www.picolisp.org/5000/-2-L.html
19:02:25 <ais523> what languages do fall into alise's entirely-suck category?
19:02:33 <Phantom_Hoover> C++?
19:02:36 <alise> ais523: Hmm... PHP.
19:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> D?
19:02:41 <ais523> I can guess a few, but there are probably more
19:02:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: C++ has a shred of C in it, so it can't fall entirely there
19:02:47 <alise> ais523: ooh, do guess!
19:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Java?
19:02:55 <alise> I'm always interested in meeting the little version of me people have in their heads.
19:02:56 <ais523> I was going to put LOLCODE up there
19:03:02 <ais523> well, down there
19:03:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Definitely.
19:03:09 <alise> Actually, LOLCODE is a great language if you replace the syntax with regular keywords.
19:03:11 <alise> Seriously. I tried it once.
19:03:20 <ais523> yep, I've heard some people saying that it's a decent lang in a bad syntax
19:03:35 <ais523> isn't it rather similar to Lua, if you don't take the syntax into account?
19:04:14 <alise> um, maybe
19:04:16 <alise> it has types and stuff
19:04:18 <alise> (although not static)
19:04:24 <alise> it's relatively unique in its oddness
19:04:27 <alise> especially its loop construct
19:04:35 <alise> ais523: and its conditionals; "if" looks at an implicit variable
19:04:38 <alise> so you do things like
19:04:40 <Phantom_Hoover> So you really hate PHP and that's it.
19:04:46 <alise> foo == "bar", if
19:04:47 <alise> ...
19:04:47 <alise> else
19:04:48 <alise> ...
19:04:49 <alise> endif
19:05:09 <ais523> hmm, a sort of "discarded result of last expression" variable?
19:05:11 <cpressey> alise: C++ entirely sucks. Sorry.
19:05:27 <cpressey> C cannot survive that kind of pollution.
19:05:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, any others?
19:06:26 <cpressey> I don't know enough about D to say.
19:06:52 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I'm guessing Plain English
19:06:57 <cpressey> But perhaps that was obvious
19:07:16 <cpressey> And what is that one that's like the name of a greek god or something but misspelled?
19:07:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Nemerle?
19:07:33 <cpressey> I want to say, like, MINURVA
19:07:41 <cpressey> (I know, Roman, not Greek :/)
19:07:47 <Phantom_Hoover> JOOPITER
19:07:48 <cpressey> Not Nemerle
19:07:58 <oklopol> alise: are you happy now, i'm hooked
19:08:00 <Phantom_Hoover> 'tis misspelt.
19:08:07 <oklopol> "<alise> oklopol: wat" <<< dot
19:08:47 <oklopol> 30 levels passed or something
19:09:58 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: It was designed by an economist to do economics math and stuff
19:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> R?
19:10:11 <Sgeo_> <3 United DJs vs Pandora
19:10:20 * Phantom_Hoover decides to list Greek gods
19:10:23 <cpressey> No, R looks OK by comparison. This was BancStar-level
19:10:33 * Phantom_Hoover → food
19:10:34 <alise> oklopol: yay you are addicted again
19:10:34 <cpressey> And I'm thinking it's probably not a Greek god :/
19:10:51 <alise> <ais523> hmm, a sort of "discarded result of last expression" variable? ;; something like that
19:11:17 <alise> ais523: i think only conditionals assigned it
19:11:18 <alise> not sure
19:11:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover, alise: The author used it personally for a long time, described it as "mature" so he decided to make it public
19:11:41 <ais523> alise: like a flag variable in asm, then?
19:11:42 <madbrain2> link?
19:11:44 <cpressey> alise: You introduced me to it
19:12:19 <ais523> I've only had tangential experience with it, but STATA is somewhere between C++ and BANCStar on the scale of awfulness
19:12:25 <alise> cpressey: I did?
19:12:32 <ais523> made worse by the fact that it's actually used seriously
19:12:45 <ais523> imagine a lang which not only has Mathematica syndrome, but no redeeming features whatsoever
19:13:01 <ais523> (for instance, arrays are implemented by dynamically generating variable names at runtime and using eval)
19:13:16 <cpressey> alise: Yes, I'm pretty sure you gave me the link, months ago
19:13:24 <alise> cpressey: describe it more
19:13:27 <cpressey> I might actually have it bookmarked, at work
19:14:09 <cpressey> alise: OK, designed by an economist, for his personal use doing economist-type math, extrEEEMELY horrible syntax, name is a misspelled version of some english word or name
19:14:42 <alise> cpressey: what kind of site did it have?
19:14:57 <cpressey> alise: Plain HTML I think, in the UK I think
19:15:05 <alise> cpressey: OH!
19:15:07 <alise> ais523: It's that one!
19:15:10 <alise> With the bunch of characters
19:15:11 <alise> postfix
19:15:15 <alise> mixed with others
19:15:16 <alise> Ursala!
19:15:17 <cpressey> Sounds familiar, yes
19:15:18 <cpressey> YES
19:15:20 <alise> http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/
19:15:21 <cpressey> Ursala!
19:15:22 <ais523> aha, yes Ursala
19:15:34 <ais523> I don't think it's completely devoid of bad ideas, though
19:15:37 <alise> Uhh, a misspelled Disney antagonist, then.
19:15:45 <alise> :-P
19:15:46 <ais523> it's more like C++; there are good ideas in there somewhere, but buried too deeply to actually by useful
19:16:57 <cpressey> Yes, there doesn't appear to be a Greek goddess named Ursula, at least not one of note
19:18:09 <cpressey> http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/queen.fun
19:19:08 <cpressey> Good ideas buried under something that matches Befunge and False for readability
19:19:35 <cpressey> Outstrips, really, not matches
19:19:37 <ais523> isn't "ursula" latin for "little bear"?
19:19:45 <cpressey> ais523: Yes
19:20:16 <Sgeo_> I'm going to go read up on D'ni history
19:20:47 <Sgeo_> Why does the real world hold no interest for me?
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19:21:34 <madbrain2> sgeo: not intellectual enough?
19:21:46 <Sgeo_> Hehe
19:22:09 <Sgeo_> I think, as far as science goes, all new real-world science is inaccessible to people without insane equipment
19:22:23 <Sgeo_> However, in Second Life, I can perform experiments to my heart's desire
19:22:25 <Sgeo_> For example
19:22:29 <madbrain2> well, we did the easy science first of course :D
19:22:55 <cpressey> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life
19:23:05 <cpressey> I find something about this site disturbing
19:24:08 <cpressey> It's such an uncreative use of time
19:24:32 <cpressey> And the result is a massive "cookbook"
19:24:35 <cpressey> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Create_a_two-dimensional_array_at_runtime
19:25:30 <Sgeo_> http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Apply_a_callback_to_an_array
19:25:36 <Sgeo_> Why do they call it a "callback"?
19:25:45 <Sgeo_> That's not what I think of when I see "callback"
19:27:55 <cpressey> awk 'func psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}'
19:28:01 <cpressey> Yeah that's not a callback.
19:28:10 <cpressey> !awk 'func psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}'
19:28:32 <cpressey> HackEgo: ping
19:28:41 <cpressey> !echo 'hi'
19:28:47 <EgoBot> 'hi'
19:28:52 <cpressey> !awk -h
19:28:58 <fizzie> Doesn't HackEgo run with the backtick?
19:29:05 <cpressey> Oh
19:29:07 <cpressey> Duh
19:29:10 <cpressey> `awk -h
19:29:22 <HackEgo> No output.
19:29:29 <cpressey> `awk 'func psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}'
19:29:31 <HackEgo> No output.
19:29:38 <cpressey> `which awk
19:29:40 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/awk
19:30:22 <cpressey> awk: line 2: function psqr never defined
19:30:23 <cpressey> :/
19:32:16 <fizzie> `run awk 'function psqr(x){print x,x*x}BEGIN{split("1 2 3 4 5",a);for(i in a)psqr(a[i])}' 2>&1
19:32:18 <HackEgo> 1 1 \ 2 4 \ 3 9 \ 4 16 \ 5 25
19:32:49 <fizzie> Anyhow, `run with 2>&1 is a good combination for error messages.
19:33:21 <fizzie> Also "function", but maybe the submitters awk is less picky.
19:34:56 <cpressey> Yes. mawk no like 'func'.
19:35:15 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the Rosetta people are calling callback
19:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> *s
19:36:32 <alise> Bah, why do OISCs suck?
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19:38:49 <madbrain2> they're not neat enough?
19:40:22 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Anonymous functions? Are these people completely insane?
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19:43:49 <madbrain2> well, is there a variant of combinator calculus that only needs one combinator?
19:43:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Kind of.
19:44:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Iota and Jot both have a single combinator.
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19:45:16 <alise> yes.
19:45:29 <alise> although no such /supercombinator/ calculus
19:45:39 <alise> there is also a two-combinator calculus that does not require parentheses, ever, iirc
19:45:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Supercombinator?
19:45:43 <alise> (in normal application order)
19:45:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: a lambda with no lambdas inside
19:46:07 <alise> SKI, BCKW, etc. are all supercombinators.
19:46:11 <alise> Iota isn't
19:46:13 <alise> *isn't.
19:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> BCKW?
19:49:03 <madbrain2> well, one combinator with different appication trees, or two combinators sounds like the minimum
19:49:20 <madbrain2> you can't beat that
19:49:44 <cpressey> picolisp seems pretty decent, but it's a bit surprising to see that the size of its executable is larger than lua5's by like 150%
19:50:07 <cpressey> No, badly worded. Its executable is 150% the size of lua5's.
19:51:57 -!- Jora has joined.
19:52:05 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, libraries?
19:52:50 <alise> hammed in
19:52:50 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: The included database might be a large chunk of it, yes,
19:52:58 <alise> cpressey: even the 64 version?
19:53:00 <alise> that's written in assembly
19:53:04 -!- Jora has left (?).
19:53:04 <alise> and yes, the database
19:53:07 <alise> + web server
19:53:34 <cpressey> No 64-bit arch here to try that on, unfortunately
19:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean wouldn't Lua have lots of stuff in libraries outside the executable.
19:54:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Not normally, but you're right that Ubuntu packagers might have decided to do that
19:54:56 <cpressey> But apparently they did not
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20:12:33 <alise> squared
20:19:12 <Sgeo_> 5 sq .
20:24:40 <alise> 03:17:07 <oklofok> in my dream, alise and cpressey sent me a postcard that was an invite to come explore the "natural hoovers" of another universe (natural hoover being a technical term for an inverse volcano)
20:24:42 <alise> oh, so it worked!!
20:24:50 <alise> 04:12:50 <oklofok> alise: i got 130
20:24:51 <alise> 130 what
20:24:57 <oklopol> in the jumping game
20:25:19 <oklopol> you basically forced me to try it
20:25:45 <oklopol> falling tower
20:25:47 <alise> oh right
20:25:48 <alise> yeah
20:25:54 <alise> it's way too slippery
20:25:58 <alise> oklopol: what level are you on now?
20:26:11 <oklopol> 58, but i'm taking a break, possibly quitting completely
20:26:19 <oklopol> have to get some reading done
20:27:35 <oklopol> i got badly stuck at a few levels, i dunno why but it was scary shit :(
20:29:45 <alise> oklopol: i'm on 66 dude
20:29:48 <alise> you're inferior.
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20:30:58 <oklopol> :P
20:31:05 <alise> oklopol: i'm not joking. loser
20:31:09 <oklopol> maybe later..................
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20:32:00 <alise> oklopol: when did you get up to 58?
20:32:45 <oklopol> what do you mean
20:32:53 <alise> like when did you complete 57
20:32:57 <alise> i.e. how long have you been not-playing
20:33:06 <oklopol> oh, not for long i think
20:33:14 <oklopol> i think i stopped at 22:15
20:33:21 <oklopol> so i've been playing for ages
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20:33:43 <alise> what time is it there now?
20:33:52 <oklopol> 22:33
20:34:50 <alise> ha
20:34:59 <alise> you are a monster
20:35:13 <oklopol> ...i am ? :D
20:36:13 <alise> oklopol: i've been playing for days and days and i'm only up to 66
20:36:26 <oklopol> right, i've been playing for about an hour
20:36:33 <oklopol> or wait
20:36:37 <alise> oklopol: two hours and thirty-five minutues
20:36:39 <alise> *minutes
20:36:40 <alise> actually
20:36:42 <alise> i checked.
20:36:43 <oklopol> 8|
20:36:45 <alise> (or thereabouts)
20:36:47 <oklopol> oh shit
20:36:51 <alise> oklopol: a friend is on 64, he's been playing for as long as me
20:37:06 <oklopol> lol
20:37:10 <alise> another is on 57, roughly the same amount of time (although less time spent playing)
20:37:11 <oklopol> well i've played it before
20:37:15 <alise> so have i dude
20:37:22 <alise> oh he's on 58 now
20:37:24 <oklopol> so maybe i should catch all of you
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20:38:04 <alise> oklopol: become the first person to actually complete the damn thing
20:38:28 <alise> anyway even i think it's JUST TOO EASY (I'm also insane) so I'm going to make a clone except the levels are ridiculously hard
20:38:33 <alise> because i'm perverse.
20:42:39 <oklopol> 58 is fun, first a few minutes of triviality, then one short hard part
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20:44:12 <alise> yeah
20:44:17 <alise> that irritated me :P
20:44:31 <alise> 60 is very hard
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20:53:19 <pikhq> And annoyed with all ROM management tools out there, I decided to replace them. With a small Tcl script.
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20:53:44 <pikhq> (Tcl used because: I'm too lazy to rewrite a CSV parser, and I know how the one in Tcl works)
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20:55:58 <fizzie> oklopol: You're doing this thing again? After the last time you said it's no fun at all?
21:00:28 <oklopol> ...yes
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21:05:27 <alise> oklopol: what level now :D
21:06:22 <oklopol> i'm stuck at 60 :(
21:06:31 <oklopol> maybe my hands are getting old
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21:10:38 <Vorpal> oklopol, how old are they?
21:11:25 <oklopol> i think they are roughly as old as me
21:11:30 <madbrain2> hmm
21:11:43 <madbrain2> I gotta design an 8bit microprocessor
21:11:59 <oklopol> we all feel like that sometimes
21:12:01 <oklopol> and sometimes
21:12:02 <Vorpal> oklopol, hm. Okay. At least they didn't sell you some old ones that passed the best before date while in storage then
21:12:04 <madbrain2> (as in, 8 bit data bus)
21:12:04 <oklopol> we all feel like that
21:12:15 <madbrain2> anyone has some design tips?
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21:12:55 <Vorpal> madbrain2, yes "while one instruction is enough, it will probably be quite painful to code for"
21:13:19 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:13:24 <madbrain2> vorpal: eh, doesn't sound like something that would make a fast design
21:13:25 <Vorpal> so there is an esotericness-usability tradeoff there
21:13:44 <madbrain2> I'm going for usability
21:13:55 <madbrain2> esotericness is going to be in the gfx and sfx hardware
21:13:59 <madbrain2> cpu has to be nice
21:14:19 <Vorpal> madbrain2, does it?
21:14:34 <Vorpal> madbrain2, also sfx?
21:14:37 <Vorpal> special effects?
21:14:38 <madbrain2> designing a retro game system
21:14:40 <madbrain2> sound
21:14:42 <Vorpal> oh
21:15:02 <Vorpal> suddenly this became way more boring to me
21:15:13 <madbrain2> what do you mean boring?
21:15:49 <Vorpal> madbrain2, at the word "game system" the idea became boring to me. I was thinking general purpose computer
21:15:59 <Vorpal> and I was considering esoteric network interfaces
21:16:17 <Vorpal> I suggest a tin-can modem
21:16:28 <nooga> my OISC is getting even better
21:16:49 <madbrain2> it's more like for coding crazy buzzy 2600 styled games
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21:16:57 <Vorpal> basically a speaker, and a mic at each end. Then two tin cans and a string in between. For half-duplex communication
21:17:23 <madbrain2> you could probably use something like the c64 tape system :D
21:17:30 <madbrain2> just pulses of different length
21:17:31 <Vorpal> hm
21:17:39 <Vorpal> madbrain2, for the modem!?
21:17:54 <madbrain2> dunno
21:18:03 <madbrain2> actually I don't know anything about modem design
21:18:14 <Vorpal> well, see my suggestion
21:18:24 <Vorpal> then run SLIP or something over it
21:18:26 <madbrain2> could be cool to have the sound hardware dual purpose as a modem
21:18:31 <madbrain2> slip?
21:18:41 <Vorpal> before ppp
21:18:49 <madbrain2> ppp?
21:18:51 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLIP
21:18:58 <Vorpal> madbrain2, ... have you never used a modem?
21:19:17 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-to-Point_Protocol
21:19:43 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I can only assume you never used a dial-up
21:19:44 <madbrain2> I'm most likely not going to touch any network protocol
21:20:01 <Vorpal> madbrain2, why? that is way more fun than generic sound
21:20:09 <madbrain2> I have used dial-up but I forgot most of that
21:20:22 <madbrain2> sound is cool man
21:20:48 <madbrain2> I'm trying to design a synthesis chip that's going to sound cool and unique
21:20:58 <Vorpal> madbrain2, never used ADSL modem using PPPoE or PPPoA? Or tethering computer over 3G?
21:21:13 <madbrain2> nops, cable internet
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21:21:20 <Vorpal> hm
21:21:36 <madbrain2> I'm not too interested in networks honestly :D
21:21:55 <Vorpal> madbrain2, why are you connected to one then? ;P
21:21:58 <madbrain2> more like a sound and gfx guy
21:21:58 <alise> <oklopol> i'm stuck at 60 :(
21:21:59 <alise> <oklopol> maybe my hands are getting old
21:22:10 <alise> oklopol: did you remember to hit the ceiling before the long descent?
21:22:19 <madbrain2> well, more like the network works kthnxbye :D
21:22:23 <alise> did you remember to hold left instead of ascending further when you pass the last white line?
21:22:34 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I can't think of anything more painful to program than non-text based interfaces
21:22:45 <Vorpal> well, malbolge probably
21:22:50 <alise> <nooga> my OISC is getting even better ;; what is it like?
21:22:56 <madbrain2> whereas if I can design a neat sound chip
21:22:58 <Vorpal> but apart from that, doing something like SDL or GTK+ or whatever: painful
21:23:10 <madbrain2> then I can make a composition tool and make neat chipmusic for it :D
21:23:25 <alise> Vorpal: SDL, painful?
21:23:33 <alise> you may want to consider that you're just a bad programmer
21:23:50 <madbrain2> it's going to be more like DOS VGA programming than sdl really :D
21:23:55 <Vorpal> alise, well yes, but I don't blame that on SDL. I just hate graphics programming in general
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21:24:00 <Vorpal> sure I can do it
21:24:02 -!- Killerkid has joined.
21:24:04 <Vorpal> but I hate it
21:24:16 <madbrain2> put data at memory address N to get color Y at pixel Z
21:24:17 <madbrain2> etc
21:24:33 <Vorpal> madbrain2, going to implement this in hardware?
21:24:43 <madbrain2> emulator first
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21:24:50 <Vorpal> madbrain2, FPGA later?
21:24:52 <madbrain2> yeah
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21:25:00 <Vorpal> madbrain2, verilog or VHDL?
21:25:06 <madbrain2> not sure yet
21:25:24 <madbrain2> probably vhdl
21:26:15 <Vorpal> mhm
21:26:25 <madbrain2> I'd really go for an emulator mostly since that's what most people will end up seeing and using
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21:26:35 <madbrain2> but I want a design that can actually work irl
21:26:36 <Vorpal> madbrain2, or do it in silicon with contemporary technology ;)
21:26:43 <Vorpal> if you have some billions to spare that is
21:26:49 <madbrain2> and that doesn't involve ridiculous parts
21:26:57 <oklopol> "<alise> oklopol: did you remember to hit the ceiling before the long descent?" <<< the fastest way is to just drop down, but yeah it's possible i usually do that part wrong, let's see
21:27:19 <madbrain2> so I'm mostly designingg from DRAM specs
21:27:34 <Vorpal> madbrain2, anyway this sound chip. I presume it won't be able to play back acoustic music
21:27:35 <Vorpal> ?
21:27:41 <Vorpal> without sounding horrible
21:27:49 <madbrain2> 8-bit classic dram designs, or 64-bit EDO designs are totally different
21:27:51 <oklopol> hmm
21:27:59 <oklopol> or maybe hitting ceiling is faster in this case too
21:28:13 <alise> oklopol: hitting ceiling is faster
21:28:19 <alise> you can get this by raping the spacebar a lot before dropping
21:28:22 <madbrain2> vorpal: I'm not quite sure yet, I could make it sample based like the amiga and snes but that's a bit too easy
21:28:24 <alise> that pretty much guarantees a ceiling hit
21:28:33 <madbrain2> also not very original
21:28:45 <alise> madbrain2: Vorpal hates you because it cannot play THE ONLY FORM OF MUSIC
21:28:51 <madbrain2> there are some pretty good tools for that too
21:28:52 <alise> just noise!
21:28:52 <Vorpal> alise, wrong
21:28:54 <madbrain2> only form?
21:28:59 <alise> madbrain2: classical ofc
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21:29:07 <Vorpal> I like non-classical too
21:29:12 <madbrain2> depends how you define classical :D
21:29:39 <madbrain2> but yeah on really limited systems like NES, poppy 80s music tends to work a bit better
21:29:44 <alise> Classical music is all Greek to me.
21:29:47 <alise> [rimshot]
21:30:18 <madbrain2> FM synthesis chips can do ok classical music
21:30:29 <madbrain2> or sample based systems
21:31:26 <Vorpal> madbrain2, well, I define classical to the the classical period. Which is hard to define in exact years. The borders to the baroque and the romantic periods are definitely fuzzy
21:31:59 <madbrain2> oh
21:32:16 <madbrain2> well, for video game music it tends to be more like romantic music
21:32:18 <Vorpal> however wikipedia offers the suggestion "The dates of the Classical Period in Western music are generally accepted as being between 1750 to 1820."
21:32:28 <Vorpal> which is reasonably accurate
21:32:39 <madbrain2> just because violins are hard on synthesizers
21:33:01 <Vorpal> madbrain2, violins is my favourite instrument. On second place is piano.
21:33:09 <madbrain2> yeah
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21:33:25 <cpressey> < Vorpal> madbrain2, I can't think of anything more painful to program than non-text based interfaces
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21:33:31 <cpressey> Vorpal: You're weird
21:33:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, Thanks. Aren't we all in here anyway.
21:33:56 <madbrain2> on snes, actraiser 2 is the most "serious" orchestral soundtrack
21:34:02 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I place organ, especially church organ, on last place. I strongly dislike that sound.
21:34:13 <madbrain2> and even then it's sorta jumpy and romantic
21:34:36 <Vorpal> distorted electric guitar is on the place above organ
21:34:50 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I love the Zelda OOT music
21:34:55 <Vorpal> it was *very* good
21:35:00 <madbrain2> haven't played that one
21:35:07 <Vorpal> madbrain2, n64
21:35:24 <alise> <Vorpal> cpressey, Thanks. Aren't we all in here anyway.
21:35:27 <alise> Usually in an interesting way.
21:35:39 <Vorpal> alise, and who are you to define interesting?
21:36:01 <alise> Who are you to define weird as something complementary?
21:36:02 <madbrain2> most other orchestral soundtracks are classical/pop mixes
21:36:05 <alise> *complimentary?
21:36:33 <cpressey> < alise> you can get this by raping the spacebar a lot before dropping
21:36:40 <Vorpal> alise, I didn't say that. I just said thanks. Implying I liked it
21:36:51 <madbrain2> like the final fantasy soundtracks
21:36:56 <cpressey> That sounds redundant, but technically it probably isn't.
21:37:05 <alise> What does?
21:37:11 <madbrain2> but yeah snes sound ram is like 64k
21:37:32 <madbrain2> and violins sound bad when you pitch them up or down
21:38:09 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I prefer sampled to synthed when it comes to sound generation.
21:38:22 <madbrain2> compared to, say, flutes, which come out relatively good
21:38:34 <madbrain2> vorpal: yeah, that's normal I think
21:38:38 <Vorpal> madbrain2, and violins have a pretty restricted range anyway. You want viola, cello and so on for other ranges
21:39:02 <madbrain2> well, what I mean is that it's hard to pass off a G3 sample at G4 for instance
21:39:07 <Vorpal> ah
21:39:27 <madbrain2> where you could get away with only 1 or a few flute samples
21:40:01 <Vorpal> madbrain2, well, to some extent. Not for a trained ear though.
21:40:07 <madbrain2> and when you loop the flute sample it's less of a problem
21:40:32 <cpressey> alise: "raping the spacebar a lot"
21:40:36 <madbrain2> vorpal: true, but what I mean is that it's less of a problem than other instruments
21:40:37 <alise> cpressey: ah.
21:40:42 <madbrain2> like brass
21:40:45 <madbrain2> or strings
21:41:24 <madbrain2> like, you can compose music with a 2k flute sample and it won't sound ear raping and terrible
21:41:31 <Vorpal> madbrain2, there is a reason I use huge soundfonts when playing MIDI. 70 MB or more isn't uncommon for good quality soundfonts
21:41:47 <Vorpal> for piano alone that is :P
21:42:04 <madbrain2> well, I'm mostly talking about really small settings with few channels :D
21:42:34 <madbrain2> like orchestral soundtracks squeezed into 256k with 8 channels :D
21:42:41 <alise> bah! who needs more sounds than sin can produce!
21:42:55 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I much prefer actually acoustically recorded music to even generated-with-samples though
21:43:11 <madbrain2> sin can produce everything but you'd need hundreads of channels
21:43:30 <madbrain2> vorpal: and with what orchestra am I going to record soundtracks eh? :D
21:43:45 <Vorpal> madbrain2, for the violin family of instruments you can usually hear a difference. Especially if they start plucking the strings.
21:44:12 <madbrain2> but yeah real orchestras sound better than fake ones. duh.
21:44:19 <Vorpal> there are sooo many ways to play a violin. Try rendering anything by Paganini in midi. I doubt the result will be even passable
21:44:36 <Vorpal> madbrain2, a piano is way easier. Much fewer variables that can change
21:45:01 <madbrain2> well, just the fact that it is "solo violin" is already a really bad start
21:45:17 <Vorpal> key, attack, time held down, release, which pedals are down.
21:45:20 <Vorpal> That's about it I think
21:45:28 <madbrain2> that's why soundtracks concentrate on the other instruments, that's the one that samples the worst
21:45:33 <cpressey> madbrain2: I can't wait to play this violin game on your esoputer. Wait, I'm lost.
21:45:40 <madbrain2> piano works fine if you just sample every note
21:45:45 <Vorpal> madbrain2, violin is the best instrument there is though
21:45:46 <madbrain2> ie you got lots of space
21:45:55 <madbrain2> then piano can sound pretty good yes
21:46:30 <Vorpal> madbrain2, yes I have an electrical piano. It sounds good. Assuming I use my studio headphones rather than the built in speakers
21:46:32 <madbrain2> vorpal: well, what's a good system when the soundtrack has to fit into like 250k max eh? :D
21:46:43 <Vorpal> madbrain2, adding more memory :P
21:46:59 <madbrain2> then the design is going to turn into a playstation
21:47:05 <madbrain2> remember when I said 8 bits? :D
21:47:24 <Vorpal> madbrain2, hm. Playstation is better though. Can use it for cracking MD5 too
21:48:11 <madbrain2> it's like, I'm going for 8 bits here, not 32~64 bit systems, which are complicated to design
21:48:33 <Vorpal> madbrain2, why not 16 bits?
21:48:42 <madbrain2> maybe 16bits
21:48:51 <cpressey> madbrain2: OK, to like, answer your original question? I like the 6502. Design something like that.
21:49:09 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I was coding for a 16-bit platform today. A lot nicer than 8 bits. With 8 bits for the address bus you need some sort of bank switching design
21:49:12 <Vorpal> and it will be horrible
21:49:31 <cpressey> Vorpal: Wh... 8-bits usually have a 16-bit address bus.
21:49:34 <madbrain2> well, by 8bits I mean 8 bit data bus
21:49:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm
21:49:56 <madbrain2> something like the z80 that has 8bit data bus with 16bit address registers
21:50:01 <Vorpal> madbrain2, okay. RISC I presume?
21:50:11 <cpressey> I don't know of any real HW with an 8-bit address bus. Maybe "back in the day" when computers had names like SCA/MP
21:50:30 <cpressey> (And 6-bit bytes! :/ )
21:50:31 <madbrain2> the registers could be 32bits for all I care, but there's not too much point if you have to squeeze it through an 8 bit bus
21:50:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, or EINAC!
21:50:48 <Vorpal> no clue what it had
21:50:52 <madbrain2> vorpal: risc or cisc
21:50:58 <Vorpal> madbrain2, risc definitely
21:51:07 <Vorpal> less of a pain in hardware
21:51:12 <madbrain2> cisc might be faster
21:51:27 <Vorpal> hm
21:51:49 <madbrain2> risc makes sense in the 32bit generation stuff
21:51:50 <Vorpal> madbrain2, risc and number the instructions in a way as to minimise gate count in instruction decoding and so on
21:52:18 <madbrain2> like, if I had a 32bit bus I'd definitely try RISC
21:52:21 <Vorpal> madbrain2, 16-bit RISC is often quite nice to use
21:52:55 <cpressey> madbrain2: What ISAs are you familiar with?
21:53:00 <madbrain2> the problem with risc is that instruction is usually quite large
21:53:11 <madbrain2> I'm not too much of an asm coder
21:53:28 <Vorpal> madbrain2, Harward or von Neumann?
21:53:32 <madbrain2> so mostly x86, looked a bit at ARM, z80...
21:53:43 <Vorpal> Harvard*
21:54:10 <cpressey> Z80 is a great piece of hardware (easy to build a computer around) but I really don't like the instruction set.
21:54:14 <Vorpal> madbrain2, hm. The 16-bit RISC I used recently had like 32 instructions
21:54:15 <madbrain2> harvard is nice but you'd need like two mem/data busses
21:54:17 <Vorpal> wait
21:54:21 <Vorpal> 31 I think
21:54:33 <Vorpal> no FPU or MMU of course
21:54:43 <madbrain2> vorpal: the instructions are 16bits each?
21:55:05 <Vorpal> madbrain2, with arguments included yes iirc
21:55:25 <madbrain2> remember that there's no data cache
21:55:35 <Vorpal> madbrain2, nor on that thing. It's SoC.
21:55:54 <madbrain2> so 16 bit instruction = have to wait for 16 bits of data from DRA
21:55:56 <madbrain2> DRAM
21:56:09 <Vorpal> hm maybe it has a cache, but I don't think so
21:56:18 <Vorpal> madbrain2, not really an issue for my application though
21:56:34 <madbrain2> that means register instructions will take 1 cycle, memory instructions 2 cycles
21:56:34 <fizzie> cpressey: Z80 feels a bit arbitrary to me. But I can't help liking the register pairing to form BC, DE, HL out of B, C, D, E, H, L.
21:56:35 <Vorpal> which was controlling a robot
21:56:36 <madbrain2> normally
21:56:48 <Vorpal> heck it was waiting on sensors most time
21:57:01 <madbrain2> and at 16 bits it will be similar in performance to a 286/386 or a 68k
21:57:01 <Vorpal> most of the*
21:57:18 <Vorpal> madbrain2, why not back it by fast memory? Like SRAM
21:57:53 <madbrain2> SRAM is kindof like... you get not much memory
21:58:09 <Vorpal> madbrain2, 2^16 gives 65536 bytes, which is 64 kiB unless I miscalculated.
21:58:23 <Vorpal> even my pentium3 had more level 2 cache
21:58:29 <Vorpal> and that would be SRAM
21:58:30 <madbrain2> also it's not very "realistic"
21:58:34 <cpressey> fizzie: The pairing is a nice touch, I grant.
21:58:43 <Vorpal> madbrain2, what isn't?
21:58:54 <madbrain2> few systems are designed with SRAM
21:59:19 <madbrain2> even for the GBA they had to relent and added 256k of DRAM (first designs only had 32k SRAM)
21:59:22 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I'm saying it can't be too expensive! Even a pentium3 had more level 2 cache!
22:00:05 <wareya_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deviating_Percolator
22:00:08 <wareya_> what the hell am I reading
22:00:11 <Vorpal> my pentium3 has 256k level 2 cache
22:00:31 <alise> <madbrain2> sin can produce everything but you'd need hundreads of channels ;; the thousand-channel sin machine
22:00:36 <alise> i see no flaw in this plan
22:00:59 <cpressey> alise: It's like the OISC of sound synthesizers!
22:01:16 <fizzie> Nintendo DS, which admittedly isn't very retro at all, has 4 megs of slow-slow DRAM shared by the ARM7/ARM9 cores, and then about 64k of faster memory that can be mapped in various ways.
22:01:19 <madbrain2> alise: there's a real 64 channel design that came out of atari :D
22:01:21 <Vorpal> alise, sounds wonderful indeed.
22:01:37 <bsmntbombdood> hello
22:02:03 <cpressey> bsmntbombdood: hello.
22:02:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, about as much RAM as my low end keypad nokia phone iirc
22:02:07 <madbrain2> but yeah there's a couple of real synthesizers that have used sinewave based synthesis
22:02:17 <fizzie> (Also, the DS's sound chip can hardware-mix 32 sampled-audio channels at independent sampling rates. Though you'd run out of memory bandwidth if you wanted to keep all channels on with high sampling rates.
22:02:26 <Vorpal> for the DRAM bit
22:02:27 <madbrain2> fizzie: 16 channels
22:02:27 <Vorpal> that is
22:03:11 <Vorpal> madbrain2, you can't do saw-tooth with sine though afaik?
22:03:23 <Vorpal> not sure why anyone would want saw-tooth to tell the truth
22:03:24 <cpressey> alise: I think this "sin"thesizer would be easier to do in software than in hardware...
22:03:26 <Vorpal> it sounds horrible
22:03:26 <madbrain2> vorpas: you can add sines together
22:03:33 <madbrain2> to make a sawtooth
22:03:40 <madbrain2> the more sines you add the closer it gets
22:03:48 <Vorpal> madbrain2, hm. Perfectly saw tooth?
22:03:49 <oklopol> sine < saw < square
22:03:54 <oklopol> square <3
22:04:09 <madbrain2> vorpal: a lot of common instruments are sortof dull-saw-wave-shaped
22:04:15 <cpressey> oklopol: square with pulse width sweep <3 <3 <3
22:04:26 <madbrain2> vorpal: you'd have problems with gibbs phenomenon but yeah
22:04:33 <madbrain2> at least audibly perfect
22:04:37 <Vorpal> madbrain2, gibbs phenomenon ?
22:04:43 <oklopol> i don't know what that is, but <3 <3 <3 just to be on the safe side
22:04:51 <oklopol> wait
22:05:00 <cpressey> oklopol: eeeEEEEOOOoooowww
22:05:00 <madbrain2> cpressey: hehe c64 power? :D
22:05:05 <oklopol> :P
22:05:13 <madbrain2> I'm more of an FM nut though :D
22:05:16 <cpressey> madbrain2: none other!
22:05:27 <Vorpal> madbrain2, phase modulated music. Has anyone made that?
22:05:58 <madbrain2> vorpal: adlib and genesis use phase modulation synthesis
22:06:14 <Vorpal> madbrain2, how does it sound?
22:06:53 <madbrain2> vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50sHqDIRdSw&feature=related
22:06:57 <Vorpal> madbrain2, also hm, presumably you could do PWM too
22:07:02 <Vorpal> as in Pulse Width
22:07:15 <madbrain2> yeah pulse width is a classic but dunno
22:07:34 <Vorpal> madbrain2, sine probably sounds best though
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22:07:50 <madbrain2> it has rather wide spectrum so it's kinda hard to mix
22:07:59 <madbrain2> sine wave has the opposite problem :D
22:08:05 <Vorpal> madbrain2, ?
22:08:21 <madbrain2> pwm square wave has a really wide spectrum
22:08:26 <Vorpal> hm
22:08:40 <Vorpal> madbrain2, and sine?
22:08:55 <madbrain2> sine has the most narrow spectrum since it's only 1 frequency :D
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22:09:24 <Vorpal> <madbrain2> vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50sHqDIRdSw&feature=related <-- horrible sound :P
22:09:42 <madbrain2> yeah it's kinda canny
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22:10:02 <Vorpal> madbrain2, possible it might sound better on a crappier playback device than a SB Live 5.1
22:10:24 <Vorpal> madbrain2, and with some cheaper headphones that professional studio monitoring ones
22:10:24 <alise_> madbrain2: pwm square wave plus sine
22:10:26 <alise_> done
22:10:50 <Vorpal> madbrain2, since my setup doesn't hide any imperfections in the sound
22:11:53 <madbrain2> vorpal: no it's really that the synth is pretty limited
22:11:57 <Vorpal> madbrain2, I noticed that with cheaper equipment you can get away with more imperfections. Not just for sound, but in general.
22:12:10 <madbrain2> so you haave to do nasty compromises
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22:12:16 <Vorpal> right
22:12:24 <fizzie> Squared sine. See, you've got a sine, and you've sort-of metaphysically got a square too.
22:12:39 <cpressey> OMG, I see why DICE C has so much trouble with RUBE. RUBE heavily uses #defines that expand into similar expressions, and DICE doesn't do any common subexpression elimination.
22:13:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about generalised polygon?
22:13:27 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:13:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, sounds crappy
22:13:49 <madbrain2> vorpal: this is about the best "mixed" genesis game : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6HNLcl1dl0&feature=related
22:14:21 <Vorpal> madbrain2, pretty limited still
22:15:06 <madbrain2> well, composing for snes is easier yes :D
22:15:15 <Vorpal> madbrain2, and what did it use?
22:15:26 <Vorpal> I forgot what you said for it
22:15:52 <pikhq> If you're willing to cheat horribly on the SNES, you can just have your cartridge send a signal down the L and R audio pins.
22:16:06 <pikhq> (that's *analog* L and R audio.)
22:16:07 <madbrain2> pikhq: really?
22:16:10 <pikhq> madbrain2: Yes.
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22:16:22 <madbrain2> that's cool though the snes chip is already not bad at all :D
22:16:44 <pikhq> Or if you're really crazy, you can just *barely* get the SNES to output 32 kHz PCM.
22:16:59 <madbrain2> mostly you have to fit everything into 64k of sound ram but that's adpcm so it's like twice compressed compared to 8bit pcm
22:17:02 <pikhq> Without any addon chips.
22:17:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, can it do anything else then?
22:17:11 <Vorpal> apart from outputting sound
22:17:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes.
22:17:19 <madbrain2> 32khz pcm is easy on snes
22:17:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah
22:17:38 <madbrain2> the problem is really that you're going to run out of sound ram really fast at 32khz :D
22:17:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: You see, the sound output is done on a completely seperate processor.
22:17:43 <madbrain2> like, in 2 seconds
22:17:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, but really, it had pins for analog audio to the cartridge?
22:17:53 <pikhq> madbrain2: 2 minutes on a 32 megabit cartridge.
22:17:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes.
22:18:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, huh, how many games made use of that?
22:18:20 <madbrain2> vorpal: the japanese NES and MSX had that too and afaik they're the only systems where sound expansion chips were used
22:18:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: Super Gameboy.
22:18:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh of course
22:18:38 <pikhq> In Japan, there was also the BSX extension.
22:18:43 <Vorpal> BSX?
22:18:55 <pikhq> It was a hookup to a satellite modem.
22:19:11 <Vorpal> ah
22:19:14 <madbrain2> pikhq: that's if the game had no other data :D
22:19:21 <pikhq> madbrain2: Yes, yes it is.
22:19:29 <madbrain2> also you could actually fit 4 minutes
22:19:59 <pikhq> madbrain2: Also, though not done on any actual physical carts, you *can* actually get up to 4 GB on there.
22:20:03 <madbrain2> but it would be hard because streaming audio to the sound chip is kinda hard
22:20:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, considering how much you could do in a cartridge I can't see why you would be limited to uncompressed PCM
22:20:30 <madbrain2> vorpal: snes has ADPCM compression in hardware
22:20:35 <Vorpal> ah nice
22:20:41 <madbrain2> in fact you can't play NOT compressed pcm :D
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22:20:53 <Vorpal> madbrain2, how efficient is that compression?
22:21:08 <madbrain2> you get 8bit quality audio for the price of 4.5bits
22:21:31 <GreaseMonkey> wait, is this BRR?
22:21:41 <madbrain2> mostly it means your 64k of sound ram are more like ~120k
22:21:47 <madbrain2> yes BRR
22:21:51 <Vorpal> madbrain2, ah I was thinking of come reasonably high quality lossless compression, like wavpack, being unpacked by a co-processor on the cartridge
22:22:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's perfectly feasible.
22:22:22 <madbrain2> vorpal: you'd have to fit it in the superfx2 chip I guess
22:22:22 <pikhq> Something similar was *actually done* for sprites on a couple of games.
22:22:33 <Vorpal> err s/reasonably high quality lossless/reasonably high compression ratio lossless/
22:22:39 <pikhq> madbrain2: Not necessarily.
22:22:40 <Vorpal> a bit unclear there
22:22:48 <pikhq> madbrain2: You can literally stick just about anything on there.
22:22:50 <madbrain2> the problem is that you'd have to compress the audio to ADPCM after decompressing it
22:23:07 <pikhq> You could attach a modern x86 PC to the SNES bus.
22:23:12 <pikhq> Directly.
22:23:14 <Vorpal> madbrain2, just put a DSP in there that plays to the analogue audio pins?
22:23:25 <madbrain2> vorpal: you could do that
22:23:31 <pikhq> *That* would be easy.
22:23:40 <madbrain2> but you'd also run out of data on the cartridges
22:23:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, depends on how many amps you could pull from the power pins
22:24:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, you would presumably blow some fuse at some point
22:24:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: One could do something similar to the BSX.
22:24:15 <madbrain2> good lossless compression schemes get you 50% compression on like stereo 16 bit
22:24:24 <pikhq> Namely, have external power.
22:24:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah
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22:24:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, well that's cheating
22:24:38 <pikhq> madbrain2: Doing it modern-day would let you stick a freaking flash card to it.
22:24:42 <Vorpal> madbrain2, 16-bit? bah
22:24:48 <madbrain2> that's still ~88k of data per SECOND
22:25:07 <madbrain2> that's more than the sound data of some games
22:25:08 <Vorpal> madbrain2, just stick some NAND flash into there
22:25:37 <madbrain2> no man, get the snes with a cd and play ramstein over your game
22:25:44 <Vorpal> XD
22:25:46 <pikhq> madbrain2: The SNES-CD?
22:25:51 <Vorpal> madbrain2, SNES CD?
22:25:57 <madbrain2> they never did snes cd
22:25:57 <Vorpal> oh that thing?
22:26:01 <Vorpal> hm
22:26:10 <pikhq> madbrain2: Yes they did. They just didn't finish because contract fell through.
22:26:16 <madbrain2> but tg16-cd games often play redbook audio for music
22:26:29 <pikhq> You've probably seen the public result of that, though.
22:26:32 <pikhq> The Playstation?
22:26:35 <madbrain2> yeah yeah
22:27:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, how much of the SNES could you bypass. I mean. Doing the entire game on the cartridge. Would that be possible?
22:27:07 <madbrain2> though many psx games play some sort of compressed format
22:27:09 <Vorpal> just putting the main CPU in an idle loop
22:27:11 <Vorpal> or such
22:27:20 <Vorpal> possibly after poking some hardware registers or such
22:27:21 <GreaseMonkey> from experience most playstation games actually use the sound chip instead of playing from the CD
22:27:28 <GreaseMonkey> well, most i've seen, anyway
22:27:35 <madbrain2> greasemonkey: true
22:27:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, you indeed could.
22:27:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Are you familiar with the Super Gameboy?
22:27:54 <GreaseMonkey> the die hard trilogy is an example of one which uses tracks on the CD
22:27:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, but I don't know if the main CPU is doing anything at all there or not
22:28:01 <GreaseMonkey> i believe tekken 2 also does it
22:28:06 <fizzie> Rather few PC games bother with CD audio, but some do use it.
22:28:10 <GreaseMonkey> or was it dragon ball z
22:28:18 <GreaseMonkey> it was one which was a copy of a game, anyway
22:28:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, like shifting data to the display or whatever
22:28:18 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's displaying a framebuffer.
22:28:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah, could you skip that too?
22:28:35 <madbrain2> cd audio sorta became obsolete when games started streaming audio by themselves
22:28:42 <pikhq> Well, rather, it's displaying a few different sprites which *happen* to be the Super Gameboy's framebuffer.
22:28:42 <madbrain2> especially mp3 or ogg audio
22:28:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, also the SNES pin design must have needed some serious planning ahead!
22:28:56 <GreaseMonkey> i believe you could skip the entire NES if you ran from cartridge
22:29:08 <GreaseMonkey> at least ALMOST
22:29:14 <GreaseMonkey> maybe there's some paletting issues there
22:29:17 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, NES or SNES?
22:29:20 <GreaseMonkey> NES
22:29:24 <Vorpal> hm okay
22:29:27 <Vorpal> what about SNES then?
22:29:29 <GreaseMonkey> you can't on the sega master system
22:29:33 <GreaseMonkey> not sure about SNES
22:29:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: The Super Gameboy is literally a Gameboy which uses the SNES for video and audio out and controller in.
22:29:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, I know that
22:30:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, but as you said, it still does the framebuffer bit
22:30:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, I want to directly drive everything from the cartridge
22:30:48 <madbrain2> just put a ntsc output on the cartridge
22:30:54 <alise_> snes was 32mbit?
22:30:54 <alise_> huh
22:30:55 <madbrain2> and a power supply
22:30:59 <madbrain2> and remove the snes
22:31:02 <alise_> why bit :P
22:31:05 <Vorpal> madbrain2, that would be cheating
22:31:17 <madbrain2> dude you're already way cheating
22:31:19 <Vorpal> madbrain2, external power supply I accept
22:31:27 <madbrain2> the real thing they did with snes is use the snes sound chip
22:31:30 <Vorpal> madbrain2, yes but cheating with specifc rules
22:31:37 <pikhq> alise_: Actually, that's just the largest official game release.
22:31:50 <pikhq> alise_: The ROM limit is actually 2^32-1 bytes.
22:31:52 <madbrain2> because the sound chip was already better than what you'd probably come up with for game sound chips
22:32:07 <madbrain2> some snes games are 4 megs yes
22:32:18 <madbrain2> I think there's even a couple with 6 megs
22:32:33 <pikhq> Aaaand you could then start paging.
22:33:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: You couldn't *quite* do that.
22:33:11 <madbrain2> snes address range is 24 bits no?
22:33:20 <pikhq> madbrain2: Oh, right, it is. Never mind.
22:33:29 <GreaseMonkey> yeah i was kinda thinking that
22:33:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: However, you could completely shut off the main CPU and use the on-cartridge CPU.
22:33:42 <madbrain2> that's still 16 megs, more than any snes game
22:33:48 <madbrain2> or indeed most n64 games :D
22:34:02 <GreaseMonkey> pikhq: yes, and you could also make a space invaders thing which could detect super gameboy and turn the damn thing back on
22:34:04 <madbrain2> pikhq: I think snes DOOM does that
22:34:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm
22:34:15 <GreaseMonkey> perfect dark is 32MB (n64)
22:34:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because the actual cartridge expansion chip hooks into the *main bus*.
22:34:26 <pikhq> Really.
22:34:31 <madbrain2> I said most n64 games, not all :D
22:34:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, nice!
22:34:35 <GreaseMonkey> i believe it uses some form of ADPCM for its samples
22:34:40 <madbrain2> mario64 is 8bit
22:34:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, but if the main cpu is running it takes over or?
22:34:45 <madbrain2> uh
22:34:47 <Vorpal> madbrain2, what?
22:34:51 <madbrain2> mario64 is 8megs rather
22:34:55 <madbrain2> sorry
22:34:55 <Vorpal> right
22:34:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: If the main CPU is running then they run in tandem.
22:35:24 <pikhq> With communication between them going over a specific point in memory.
22:35:28 <Vorpal> madbrain2, but it uses a lot of shading instead of textures, and where it uses textures they are simple. I'm not surprised
22:35:32 <pikhq> This is how all of the actual expansion chips on the SNES functioned.
22:35:39 <Vorpal> madbrain2, zelda oot is 32 megabyte iirc?
22:35:57 <madbrain2> 24megs or something... I don't remember
22:36:16 <Vorpal> ah maybe it was majora's mask that was 32 megabyte
22:36:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm
22:36:34 <madbrain2> but yeah psx games are huge compared to that
22:36:54 <Vorpal> madbrain2, was psx same era or?
22:36:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes.
22:36:59 <madbrain2> yeah
22:37:05 <Vorpal> right
22:37:11 <madbrain2> actually psx came out before n64
22:37:34 <Vorpal> from what I remember of psx and n64, psx had better hardware but worse games
22:37:44 <madbrain2> psx had more data
22:37:50 <madbrain2> because of CD
22:37:54 <Vorpal> well yes
22:38:03 <Vorpal> but gameplay wise I meant
22:38:03 <madbrain2> but n64 had texture interpolation
22:38:16 <fizzie> DS game card connection is a boring bus with 8 bidirectional data bits, and no direct addressing (you have to send it commands); and I guess from the DSi onwards they dropped the GBA cart slot, which did have 24 address bits. No more memory add-ons, or other sort of funky tricks. (Though DSi upped the built-in RAM to 16 megs, so.)
22:38:19 <Vorpal> madbrain2, texture interpolation... now what did that one do
22:38:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, the PSX had quite a few good games and a lot of shovelware.
22:38:28 <myndzi\> yeah that's a real selling point with nintendo fans
22:38:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm okay
22:38:36 <myndzi\> mario 64, now with texture interpolation!
22:38:37 <myndzi\> :)
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22:38:47 <myndzi> also mario
22:38:51 <Vorpal> myndzi, I have to say I much prefer zelda over mario
22:38:55 <pikhq> And the N64 had quite a few good games and not much shovelware.
22:38:58 <madbrain2> vorpal: make the textures blurry instead of blocky
22:39:04 <myndzi> mario is in this game, this is a mario game
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22:39:08 <Vorpal> madbrain2, ah
22:39:20 <myndzi> zelda 64 was pretty cool
22:39:21 <pikhq> Amount of good games, about the same (though the N64 got royally screwed on JRPGs). Just better signal/noise ratio.
22:39:27 <Vorpal> myndzi, which one?
22:39:34 <Vorpal> myndzi, there were two
22:39:35 <GreaseMonkey> i believe the record for largest n64 ROM is 64MB, can't remember which it is
22:39:42 <myndzi> the first one, i never actually played most of these games
22:39:48 <myndzi> but i did see a number of them
22:39:53 <Vorpal> myndzi, so oot then?
22:39:53 <madbrain2> but yeah
22:39:57 <myndzi> guess so
22:39:59 <GreaseMonkey> ...our interwebs just lagged
22:40:05 <madbrain2> mario64 is like a classic, classic piece of game design
22:40:07 <myndzi> i liked the targeting system
22:40:12 <myndzi> and the combat system
22:40:18 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, iirc the leaked debug from for zelda oot master quest was 64 MB
22:40:21 <myndzi> though maybe it didn't translate well to the c ontroller, i am unsure haha
22:40:23 <pikhq> The N64 had some really stupid hardware limitations.
22:40:32 <madbrain2> n64?
22:40:50 <madbrain2> didn't it have some problems with... I think it was gfx cache or something like that
22:41:00 <pikhq> Such as having a single chunk of RAM that was high-latency.
22:41:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, couldn't you put a co-processor on the cartridge for n6?
22:41:03 <myndzi> seeing as you guys are saying psx, i'm wondering if any of you knows where that abbreviation came from?
22:41:05 <Vorpal> n64*
22:41:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: No.
22:41:14 <myndzi> i seem to recall opening files in a hex editor and psx was the header
22:41:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, why not?
22:41:17 <GreaseMonkey> oh, right
22:41:23 <myndzi> but that seems a strange reason for it to have become the common acronym
22:41:32 <myndzi> (though, in this channel, the opposite might be true ;)
22:41:35 <madbrain2> probably because PS was kinda short
22:41:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nothing-but-ROM.
22:41:44 <madbrain2> dunno where the X came from
22:41:44 <myndzi> but almost since the playstation was out i remember people calling it the psx
22:41:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, how did it save games then?
22:42:04 <pikhq> Oh, right. You could have some writable RAM on there.
22:42:06 <myndzi> well, like i said, i am about 90% sure PSX was the file header for executables on the system
22:42:09 <pikhq> Fine. Nothing but memory.
22:42:18 <myndzi> like MZ (MZP) in an exe file
22:42:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, so use that as a frame buffer!
22:42:26 <pikhq> ...
22:42:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, that a chip on the cartridge draws to
22:42:39 <pikhq> *groan*someone actually did that
22:42:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, really?
22:42:49 <pikhq> The "Wide-Boy 64".
22:43:00 <GreaseMonkey> myndzi: i interpreted that as "i am sure 90% of PSX was the file header"
22:43:24 <pikhq> It was a hand-built but actually sold Gameboy Color for the N64.
22:43:26 <madbrain2> well, the jaguar was a single-piece-of-ram system too
22:43:40 <myndzi> GreaseMonkey: s/of/that/, but i guess they mean about the same thing
22:43:58 <pikhq> Erm, sorry. Not hand-built.
22:44:01 <GreaseMonkey> i meant as to how i initially interpreted
22:44:07 <pikhq> It was an official dev tool for the GBC.
22:44:11 <GreaseMonkey> as in "90% of the game image was the file header"
22:44:30 <myndzi> oh, haha
22:44:38 <myndzi> yeah, PSX games were super compact
22:44:44 <myndzi> who needs 700mb?
22:44:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm... Good thing caching didn't mess up or such
22:45:12 <pikhq> Vorpal:
22:45:12 <madbrain2> myndzi: well, you don't want to use 700mb cause it's going to take forever to load :D
22:45:15 <pikhq> Cache? What cache?
22:45:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, well n64 could have that
22:45:27 <Vorpal> I don't know
22:45:39 <madbrain2> yeah from psx on they all have cache I think
22:45:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway, what was Wide-Boy 64?
22:45:41 <pikhq> It had high latency RAM and *no cache*.
22:45:47 <GreaseMonkey> could the CDs even READ 700MB?
22:45:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: GBC for the N64.
22:45:58 <GreaseMonkey> erm
22:46:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, nintendo product?
22:46:02 <pikhq> Yes.
22:46:06 <GreaseMonkey> could the CDs even CONTAIN 700MB?
22:46:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay h,m
22:46:17 <Vorpal> hm*
22:46:18 <pikhq> Vorpal: Only available to developers, though.
22:46:21 <madbrain2> normally they're 650m
22:46:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, did the gamecube use cartridges to or?
22:46:32 <Vorpal> I forgot
22:46:39 <madbrain2> but I think dreamcast had haxxor cds that went up to like 700mb
22:46:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, ... what was the point of that then?
22:46:41 <GreaseMonkey> the amusing thing about PSX and N64 is that they both contain the same family of processor
22:46:53 <GreaseMonkey> then again, so do the xbox 360 and the wii
22:47:04 <GreaseMonkey> and the ps3's processor is kinda related
22:47:16 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... Game Boy Color.
22:47:18 <madbrain2> yeah ps3 is a power too no?
22:47:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, um I didn't ask what it was
22:47:28 <pikhq> Not Game Cube, Game Boy Color.
22:47:36 <GreaseMonkey> (i mean the PSX and N64 have MIPS and those other 3 are PPCish)
22:47:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: What are you talking about the gamecube for, then?
22:47:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, I asked *why only for developers* and I asked a question about gamecube
22:47:51 <pikhq> Oh, right.
22:47:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, well I know Wii use cds
22:47:56 <pikhq> I dunno why it was only for developers.
22:48:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, gamecube is in between n64 and wii
22:48:10 <Vorpal> and I didn't remember what it used
22:48:12 <pikhq> And the Gamecube used a disc that was DVD-like.
22:48:29 <madbrain2> yeah I think game cubes used something like mini DVDs
22:48:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, so no funky cartridge processor then
22:48:33 <Vorpal> aww
22:49:19 <pikhq> Huh. The Wii doesn't use DVDs.
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22:49:42 <pikhq> It uses the same disc format as the Gamecube, but physically larger.
22:49:47 <alise_> yep
22:49:51 <alise_> isn't it fun
22:49:51 <madbrain2> anyways, streaming audio doesn't really make sense unless you have tons of data
22:50:24 <madbrain2> even now some devs use synthesized audio on iphones because of stuff like 10mb data limits
22:50:30 <pikhq> The "Nintendo Optical Disc" is physically a DVD, except recorded assuming constant angular velocity.
22:50:58 <madbrain2> yeah, I think the xbox or xbox360 had a reverse DVD, too :D
22:51:04 <pikhq> (meaning the physical size of a bit varies depending on the distance from the center)
22:51:11 <pikhq> madbrain2: Nope, completely standard DVD drives.
22:51:17 <madbrain2> like a DVD but the tracks go the opposite way
22:51:21 <madbrain2> oh really?
22:51:22 <madbrain2> anyways
22:51:25 <pikhq> The Xbox to the point of *literally* being purchased off the shelf.
22:51:40 <pikhq> They purchased normal IDE DVD drives and stuck them on there.
22:52:14 <alise_> <pikhq> The "Nintendo Optical Disc" is physically a DVD, except recorded assuming constant angular velocity.
22:52:16 <alise_> <pikhq> (meaning the physical size of a bit varies depending on the distance from the center)
22:52:21 <alise_> wow xD
22:53:13 <fizzie> It's so close to a DVD that the WiiDrive is capable of DVD-reading with very slight modchippery, though.
22:53:22 <pikhq> No mod chips involved.
22:53:25 <pikhq> It requires some software.
22:53:56 <cpressey> Whoa! Got rube.c to compile in DICE by grinding its innards with a corkscrew. I think I introduced some bugs, but it does run. Pretty!
22:54:26 <cpressey> And we're still talking about vijiogame musics?
22:54:48 <madbrain2> vorpal: anyways, the best synth chip used on video game systems is probably the roland mt-32
22:55:12 <pikhq> Ah, yes. The NOD also has a barcode burned onto it that the drive checks to try and avoid copied discs.
22:55:27 <madbrain2> example of mt-32 audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y-ermSwasw
22:55:42 <pikhq> Oh, *groan*
22:55:55 <pikhq> They chose this odd-ass format to avoid licensing fees.
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23:01:59 <cpressey> alise_: I so want that to be an Ursala quine.
23:04:39 <madbrain2> vorpal: but yeah the limitations I'm using are:
23:04:50 <madbrain2> - NTSC output
23:04:54 <cpressey> alise_: OK, so fwiw: for my strictly typed rewriting language, the types would apply to the rules. (car (cons H T:list)) -> H, for example.
23:05:11 <madbrain2> - dram has 6.25mhz access cycle
23:05:24 <madbrain2> that means you can do 400 DRAM reads per scanline
23:05:45 <madbrain2> but you have to share them between cpu and gfx
23:05:51 <madbrain2> and sound if sound reads from RAM
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23:33:18 <cpressey> When was the last time you wrote something beautiful in C?
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23:42:15 <nooga> my OISC is getting even better
23:50:50 <Vorpal> <madbrain2> vorpal: anyways, the best synth chip used on video game systems is probably the roland mt-32 <--- why is that?
23:50:55 <Vorpal> <madbrain2> - NTSC output <-- UGH why?
23:50:59 <Vorpal> madbrain2, what is wrong with PAL
23:51:09 <Vorpal> or VGA
23:51:57 <Vorpal> madbrain2, also how often does the DRAM need to be refreshed?
23:55:18 <Vorpal> <cpressey> When was the last time you wrote something beautiful in C? <-- hm... ages
23:56:48 <cpressey> Vorpal: Pity.
23:57:00 <fizzie> What's wrong with NTSC w.r.t. PAL then? A bit smaller amount of raster lines, but a bit higher framerate; it's not like the differences are huge.
23:57:34 <cpressey> I just managed to compile Lua 5.1.4 on AmigaOS 1.3! Problem is, I can't *link* it, because there are so many *.o files the shell complains "Command too long!"
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