←2010-09-05 2010-09-06 2010-09-07→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:02:04 <cpressey> Hah, @-arguments to the rescue
00:03:02 <cpressey> fizzie: A higher framerate means less time to compute enemy AI between frames!
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00:14:24 <cpressey> Gak! What they don't tell you is that lines in an @-included file are limited to 254 characters!
00:14:31 <cpressey> Oh, the GOOD OLD DAYS, huh?
00:15:12 <alise_> hi.
00:15:45 <alise_> <cpressey> When was the last time you wrote something beautiful in C? ;; never
00:16:24 <alise_> <Vorpal> <madbrain2> - NTSC output <-- UGH why?
00:16:25 <alise_> <Vorpal> madbrain2, what is wrong with PAL
00:16:25 * pikhq declares that everyone sucks
00:16:40 <alise_> you know, Vorpal, you're an idiot.
00:16:58 <alise_> let's count the countries that use PAL
00:17:22 <alise_> 43, if I eyeballed it right
00:17:27 <alise_> now let's count those that use NTSC
00:18:14 <pikhq> About the same, I'd guess.
00:18:19 <alise_> more, actually
00:18:21 <alise_> quite a bit more
00:18:23 <cpressey> alise_: JAPAN and CANADA, the COOL COUNTRIES.
00:18:35 <alise_> at least 49
00:18:38 <alise_> definitely more
00:18:42 <alise_> just ambiguous how to count territories
00:18:45 <pikhq> Oh, fucking island countries near the US.
00:19:01 <alise_> Vorpal: my point is: you're not defending against the Americanisation of all entities
00:19:10 <alise_> you're just rabidly preferring anything that seems European to you, to anything American.
00:19:24 <alise_> and don't whip out a technical argument, because it's blatantly obvious that wasn't the basis of your dispute.
00:19:48 <pikhq> And it's not even like one is strictly superior to the other.
00:19:55 <alise_> indeed
00:19:59 <pikhq> There's upsides and downsides to both.
00:20:10 <pikhq> And they both suck compared to digital broadcasting standards.
00:20:15 <alise_> NTSC is smoother with movement but less defined, PAL is less smooth with movement but better defined
00:20:26 <alise_> PAL is probably best FOR LIVE-ACTION ENTERTAINMENT
00:20:44 <alise_> as it has the same fps as movies, which creates a desirable motion blur effect, (and allows easier broadcast of movies)
00:20:46 <alise_> and has higher definition
00:20:47 <alise_> BUT
00:20:48 <alise_> for games
00:20:50 <alise_> NTSC seems preferable to me
00:20:54 <pikhq> alise_: No, it has 25 fps. Film has 24 fps.
00:20:56 <alise_> because fast movement should be reproduced accurately
00:20:58 <alise_> pikhq: oh, touche
00:20:59 <alise_> well, whatever
00:21:02 <alise_> it's the same vicinity
00:21:05 <pikhq> So, PAL has the film sped up.
00:21:06 <alise_> so the same sort of motion blur
00:21:23 <alise_> pikhq: or have horrible jerkiness
00:21:25 <alise_> by replicating frames
00:21:38 <alise_> the unnoticeable speed-up is better ofc :)
00:22:04 <Sgeo_> uorygl isn';t here o.O
00:22:57 <pikhq> alise_: It's noticeable in the audio.
00:23:22 <alise_> pikhq: even if you correct for pitch?
00:23:29 <pikhq> Yes, but much less so.
00:23:35 <pikhq> I vastly prefer 30 fps for display of film over 25fps.
00:23:46 <pikhq> 2:3 pulldown is quite nice.
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00:24:32 <pikhq> (Every even film frame is displayed for 1 TV frame, every odd is displayed for 1.5 TV frames)
00:24:54 <nooga> jilm
00:25:04 <pikhq> (... Thus getting you 24 fps on a 30 fps display.)
00:25:39 <cpressey> Looks like all I have to do it stub out 12 POSIX-ish C functions that DICE don't got, and I'm in business with a only-slightly-crippled-you'd-never-know-it Lua interpreter.
00:26:02 <pikhq> *Also*, this is easily reversed by devices that can display 24 fps better than that.
00:27:08 <alise_> pikhq: no, pulldown is UNACCEPTABLE
00:27:17 <alise_> have you ever seen panning with pulldown?
00:27:22 <alise_> or any fast movement?
00:27:25 <alise_> it's the jerkiest, most retarded thing ever
00:27:26 <alise_> but panning is the worst
00:27:33 <alise_> forwards and AH and fowards and AH
00:27:40 <pikhq> alise_: Have you seen it on a 30fps display?
00:27:44 <pikhq> It's really not noticable.
00:27:47 <alise_> cpressey: SOUNDS GOOD.
00:27:59 <alise_> pikhq: To be honest, I have never seen a 30fps display in my life, as far as I am aware.
00:28:23 <alise_> Well, maybe CRTs could do it.
00:29:27 <pikhq> Anyways, all this is somewhat irrelevant, since modern TV equipment can handle 24 fps.
00:29:50 <cpressey> Actually I might need to implement some of these... :/ memchr?
00:30:58 <alise_> cpressey: PDCLib.
00:31:14 <alise_> cpressey: http://pdclib.rootdirectory.de/
00:31:25 <alise_> cpressey: You write a header file and get a C99-compliant library. Well, in theory.
00:31:33 <cpressey> alise_: Much obliged.
00:31:34 <alise_> It doesn't actually have <stdio.h> yet.
00:31:42 <alise_> cpressey: But you can rip out the parts you're missing, I'm sure.
00:31:51 <pikhq> Hrm. Well, 25 fps stuff still can't, because having refresh rates high enough to handle native 25 fps video and 24 fps video without modifying stuff is not yet feasible.
00:32:10 <pikhq> 30 fps stuff, though? Yeah, just have a 120 Hz refresh rate & voila.
00:32:38 <alise_> cpressey: Failing that, try newlib.
00:33:28 <alise_> pikhq: I SEE NO REASON WE CAN'T HAVE 600 HZ TELEVISIONS
00:34:00 <pikhq> Of course, if you're willing to go for a CRT screen, it's all pretty easy.
00:34:22 <pikhq> Mmmm, multiple possible refresh rates.
00:34:39 <alise_> I loved having a CRT because I put the resolution up to 1280x1024 or something on a really shitty 17" Compaq CRT. It was so, SO flickery and so, SO blurry, but it was MOAR RESOLUTION DAMMIT.
00:34:45 <alise_> Reading UI text was a bit hard at first.
00:34:52 <alise_> I was young and stupid...
00:34:57 <alise_> ...now I'm just young.
00:34:58 <pikhq> Hah.
00:35:03 <alise_> ... and stupid.
00:35:21 <alise_> pikhq: I had to use PowerStrip (Windows monitor tweaking program) just to get that resolution.
00:35:31 <alise_> Windows sanely ended its resolution list a few places below that on the grounds that I'm fucking crazy.
00:35:40 <cpressey> Hey, so, why don't more language implementations ship with regression test suites anyway?
00:36:42 <cpressey> "I was young and stupid, now I'm young and stupid and blind!"
00:39:13 <alise_> Uh, I am actually blind.
00:40:08 <cpressey> alise_: You play Dot Action 2 remarkably well, then.
00:40:36 <alise_> Braille display + playing by ear.
00:41:40 <alise_> cpressey: NOTE: BLATANT LIES
00:41:57 <alise_> (Astonishing!)
00:43:57 <Sgeo_> My phone falls two feet, and the battery cover is gone
00:43:58 <Sgeo_> WTF
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00:44:37 <pikhq> *groan*
00:44:40 <pikhq> Yup, Palin's running for Pres. in 2012.
00:45:07 * Sgeo_ might switch party to Republican just to vote against her
00:45:25 <Sgeo_> Unless she's running against Huckabee
00:45:27 <pikhq> *sigh* Fecking primary system.
00:45:28 <alise_> pikhq: Ha.
00:45:28 <Sgeo_> Bit of a hard choice, then
00:45:32 <alise_> Sgeo_: *facepalm*
00:45:50 <alise_> Write in Jesus; Diebold might think it's a good idea and we can all have some fun.
00:45:51 <cpressey> WHAAAAAT wait that's not surprising, only disappointing
00:46:33 <Sgeo_> pikhq, if you had to choose: Huckabee, or Palin?
00:46:44 <pikhq> Sgeo_: I shall only answer that in song.
00:47:10 <pikhq> *singing* Suicide is painless, it brings so many changes, and I can take or leave it as I please.
00:48:03 <Sgeo_> Maybe Palin... there's a chance she might quit halfway in her first term
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00:57:22 <zzo38> If you have look at esolang wiki recently, you might wonder why I created those templates. Hopefully you figure it out.
01:10:38 -!- ski has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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01:18:13 <cpressey> idea: Democratic Topic Nazi Bot: If anyone attempt to change the topic of the channel, it changes it back immdiately. You can submit a topic change to the bot, but it only accepts it once a majority of users in the channel have approved it.
01:18:20 <cpressey> *attempts
01:19:08 <alise_> cpressey: Better idea: optbot, which set the topic to "logurl | random unattributed line from the entire channel logs".
01:19:14 <alise_> It also quoted one at you if you highlighted it.
01:19:18 <alise_> I created it.
01:19:27 <alise_> (This inspired fungot's rather more involved Markov babble.)
01:19:27 <fungot> alise_: yes there's a lot more
01:19:34 <alise_> cpressey: It set it every few hours or something.
01:19:39 <alise_> A lot of fun.
01:19:41 <alise_> I should revive it.
01:20:03 <cpressey> alise_: :P
01:20:16 <alise_> zzo38: please don't spam templates like that
01:20:20 <alise_> even if it's for a reason, Graue will get angry
01:20:43 <alise_> and we all suffer :-P
01:23:02 <zzo38> Why will Graue get angry?
01:23:07 <zzo38> Can't they ask at first?
01:23:20 -!- ski has joined.
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01:25:15 <zzo38> Someone else (Elliott) was trying to build the SKI calculus into MediaWiki, using also template namespace
01:25:52 <zzo38> Did you notice the Cn template links to xkcd?
01:29:40 <alise_> zzo38: I used the user namespace, didn't I?
01:30:03 <alise_> I was joking about the Graue thing anyway
01:30:07 <zzo38> alise_: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=10
01:30:20 <alise_> I stand thoroughly corrected. Carry on!
01:30:38 <alise_> The SKI calculus didn't work, btw.
01:30:41 <alise_> It's specifically designed not to.
01:30:46 <alise_> (The templating engine)
01:32:07 -!- augur has joined.
01:32:27 <zzo38> The templating engine is specifically designed not to be Turing complete?
01:34:59 <cpressey> That would make sense to me. Who wants non-terminating templates?
01:37:19 <cpressey> btw, fungot has displayed some freakishly relevant responses recently.
01:37:19 <fungot> cpressey: yeah i don't think i'd do it on a computer though i can't read on a computer
01:40:32 <alise_> cpressey: optbot demonstrated remarkable sentience and malevolence on occasion.
01:53:07 <cpressey> The name's Moniker. Sobriquet Y. Moniker. The "Y" stands for Yclept.
01:58:57 <alise_> wat.
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02:03:55 <cpressey> http://i.imgur.com/6NS0M.png
02:04:50 <cpressey> I mentioned this port in #lua and someone accused me of wasting time I could spend working on *their* project, or alternately, the cure for cancer
02:06:21 <alise_> cpressey: what was their project?
02:06:27 <cpressey> alise_: They haven't said
02:06:30 <alise_> who was it?
02:06:37 <alise_> (I won't maul them. probably)
02:06:44 <alise_> cpressey: also, put that thing in fucking doubling mode, not interlace argh my eyes
02:06:45 <cpressey> Yeah probably
02:06:56 <cpressey> Good idea
02:06:58 <alise_> ... and change your window title font, now
02:07:42 <cpressey> WAH much better
02:07:55 <cpressey> Hm
02:08:38 <alise_> Seriously why are you using that font.
02:08:55 <cpressey> "Purisa Medium" -- I wonder if I selected that? If so -- what was I thinking?
02:14:10 <cpressey> Also why are my FireFox fonts messed up? Happened after my system spontaneously reset this morning. Every page looks like the Roman character part of ShiftJIS pages
02:20:27 <alise_> Take a look at your preferences.
02:20:31 <alise_> The default fonts in particular.
02:20:34 <alise_> Failing that, open a terminal,
02:20:38 <alise_> $ sudo fc-cache -f -v
02:23:13 <cpressey> was changed to an ugly font called "serif" for some reason -- changed it to FreeSerif and it's not near as bad -- thx
02:27:58 <cpressey> SIOD back in the Amiga daze stood for "Scheme In One Defun".
02:28:15 <cpressey> I assume this transitioned to "Day", then to "48 hours"
02:28:40 <cpressey> Then to R6RS and then to not caring about Scheme. So it goes!
02:28:49 * cpressey pulls out a yo-yo
02:31:40 * cpressey is tempted to write a Pixley interpreter in C
02:32:06 <coppro> Pixley?
02:32:31 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/
02:32:37 <cpressey> I design too many language
02:32:41 <cpressey> *languages.
02:33:06 <pikhq> cpressey: You do.
02:33:07 <cpressey> This is hardly a design, though.
02:33:15 <cpressey> Just a chipping away at something else.
02:33:47 <coppro> oh, meh
02:34:34 <cpressey> pikhq: I should probably find something else to do with my time. Dot Action 2, or curing cancer, or just talking about random shit on IRC.
02:34:46 <pikhq> You could learn a language.
02:34:47 <cpressey> Oh, have I mentioned, I love Portishead?
02:34:49 <pikhq> (spoken)
02:35:07 <cpressey> pikhq: Hm. I could. I've never been very good at those.
02:35:33 <pikhq> Or (for amusement) you could learn Written Chinese without learning a spoken Sinitic language.
02:36:22 * coppro moves in tomorrow
02:37:28 <alise_> <cpressey> SIOD back in the Amiga daze stood for "Scheme In One Defun". ;;
02:37:30 <alise_> er
02:37:31 <alise_> <cpressey> I assume this transitioned to "Day", then to "48 hours"
02:37:36 <alise_> scheme in one defun still exists
02:37:43 <alise_> 48 hours is unrelated afaik
02:37:49 <alise_> http://www.cs.indiana.edu/scheme-repository/imp/siod.html
02:37:56 <cpressey> alise_: Oh? Interesting
02:38:25 <alise_> <cpressey> Oh, have I mentioned, I love Portishead? ;; I have Third but have never listened to it and probably never will; I swear it was released slowed down 1000%.
02:38:42 <alise_> I mean, yeah, I know trip hop does that shit, but seriously, guys? Seriously?
02:39:18 <cpressey> alise_: A younger me would have hated them. Tastes change I guess. Also: Sneaker Pimps.
02:40:29 <cpressey> "Please forgive the lack of full compliance with IEEE or R4RS standards. Perhaps one of these days." <<SIOD's *old*>>
02:41:26 <alise_> SLIB is still coded for R4RS iirc
02:41:28 <alise_> I forget.
02:41:39 <alise_> Scheme 9 From Outer Space is R4RS, but that's Nils M. Holm.
02:41:41 <alise_> He's ZANY.
02:41:46 <cpressey> Oh my
02:42:39 <alise_> cpressey: You have to complete a multi-choice HTML text adventure just to get to the directory listing^W^Wsite.
02:44:20 <zzo38> I have created a help page indicating the purpose of the templates
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02:45:51 <cpressey> fizzie: While I appreciate your finding that alcohol is a GABA-receptor-inhibitor, I can't help but think there is a lot more to it than just that. These things are fermented food, and as such, chemically quite complex. I've noticed, for example, if I mix drinks (wine and beer) I get WAY more drunk WAY more quickly.
02:46:04 <cpressey> And sicker much more easily.
02:46:14 <cpressey> ANyway.
02:46:54 <alise_> "Highly recommended!"
02:47:00 <cpressey> In a sort of existential rain puddle at the moment. Summoning Paddington bear...
02:47:44 <alise_> I have found out that if you mix wine, beer, cocaine, pebbles, cannabis, cyanide, paint thinner, paint thickener, paint, water, hydroxic acid, LSD, and heroin, you die.
02:48:00 <alise_> Interesting, that.
02:48:06 <alise_> I think it's the hydroxic acid.
02:48:25 <cpressey> Ooh! Paint thickener!
02:48:29 <pikhq> I have discovered that if you mix 1 kilogram of caffeine with 1 liter of water and drink, your tongue dies and then you die.
02:49:04 <pikhq> (caffeine is one of the most bitter substances. Your tongue shall hate you and then die.)
02:51:54 <cpressey> So I had this idea, right... it would have gone well with eso-std.org
02:52:32 <alise_> pikhq: Um, you'd die.
02:52:37 <alise_> pikhq: Caffeine is lethal in that kind of dosage.
02:52:44 <cpressey> We should publish our own frickin' journal. JETICSARF. Journal of Esoteric Topics in Computer Science And Related Fields.
02:52:46 <pikhq> alise_: Yes, you would in fact die.
02:52:48 <pikhq> As I said.
02:52:50 <alise_> It's lethal in quite small doses, even.
02:52:55 <alise_> pikhq: True :P
02:52:59 <alise_> cpressey: http://t3x.org/s9fes/index.html
02:53:02 <alise_> Can you get to the site????
02:53:07 <pikhq> alise_: Small per mass, perhaps.
02:53:17 <alise_> I have done it (by cheating; opening all the choices in tabs).
02:53:21 <cpressey> We woudln't need to actually write papers or peer review them. Just suggestive abstracts would be fine.
02:53:24 <pikhq> Fortunately, it's effective and readily available at much smaller doses.
02:53:37 <pikhq> (milligrams!)
02:53:52 <cpressey> alise_: I can and will
02:54:21 <cpressey> alise_: ARGH DOWNLOAD LINK ON SIOD SITE BORKEN
02:54:26 <cpressey> last updated 1996
02:54:46 <alise_> cpressey: huh
02:55:43 <cpressey> "Related FIelds", of course, are any course of research that has been, or could be, undertaken on a computer.
02:57:31 <cpressey> "You are standing in front of a building. The door of the building seems to be locked. A look at the opening times reveals that they have closed just a few seconds earlier. "
02:58:49 <cpressey> this is insane
02:59:06 <cpressey> i mean, global warming is one thing
02:59:21 <cpressey> but there is no way i can swallow this many pianos
02:59:24 <alise_> cpressey: what
02:59:30 <cpressey> alise_: WHEEE
02:59:33 <alise_> I think cpressey just tried my drug cocktail.
02:59:46 <cpressey> clowns did
02:59:54 <cpressey> ...
03:00:03 <alise_> cpressey: HI CPRESSEY
03:00:08 <cpressey> *incoherent*
03:00:22 <alise_> I wonder if cpressey is faking it!
03:00:42 <cpressey> I think that site, when combined with Spanish wine, has the same effect as your cocktail
03:02:25 <cpressey> OK, so...
03:03:11 <cpressey> one thing at a time, right?
03:03:27 <cpressey> the journey to Antarctica begins with a single step
03:03:49 <cpressey> and ends with screaming at the unspeakable horrors contains within those mountains of madness
03:03:57 <cpressey> *contained
03:05:04 <cpressey> alise_: Read Dijkstra's papers ever?
03:05:49 <cpressey> http://userweb.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD13xx/EWD1305.html
03:06:05 <alise_> cpressey: Some, yes
03:06:07 <alise_> *yes.
03:06:31 <cpressey> better handwritten though
03:08:41 <cpressey> although
03:09:12 <cpressey> The first language I ever learned was BASIC. So I'm not with him on the "no previous exposure to BASIC or FORTRAN" thing.
03:09:32 <cpressey> It is a disadvantage. But one can overcome it.
03:09:42 <pikhq> One can forget things.
03:10:11 <cpressey> pikhq: One can indeed. One can... shelve them, where they belong.
03:10:11 <Sgeo_> First language I was exposed to was VB5
03:10:16 <Sgeo_> And I still regret it every day
03:11:07 <cpressey> Oh, I was a big Visual Basic programmer once. VB3 was, in a certain way, awesome. VB4 was such crap and so quickly was replaced by VB5 that it made me loathe Microsoft.
03:12:25 <cpressey> And while most people can understand how Microsoft's empire is built on Windows, fewer can understand how it is *really* built on BASIC.
03:12:54 <cpressey> So many of those 8-bit micros had a BASIC that came from Microsoft.
03:13:18 <cpressey> The ZX81 didn't, as far as I know. ZX81 BASIC was so weird, though.
03:14:29 <cpressey> Anyway!
03:14:43 <cpressey> Trying to run SIOD on an Amiga 500 emulator, because I'm NUTS.
03:14:59 <cpressey> While listening to Portishead via Youtube.
03:16:30 <cpressey> Actually, SMETANA was first implemented in VB3. Along with a really neat toy called "Cyclobots" which I should really rewrite in Java someday.
03:17:40 <cpressey> Back when I had just moved into my own place, (well, with a roommate), and had a new, ugly PC with a /Hercules/ B&W graphics card. I think it was a 386.
03:17:42 <pikhq> cpressey: *Pirated* BASIC, no less.
03:17:44 <cpressey> No.
03:17:48 <cpressey> It was a 486DLX.
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03:17:50 <cpressey> OH GOD.
03:18:25 * Sgeo_ plays lament2.mid
03:19:08 <cpressey> pikhq: I haven't researched it enough to know that, but I wouldn't be surprised. I've heard such stupid rumours repeated. Like how Gates sat down and wrote the BASIC ROM for (the Altair's CPU?) and it "worked the first time". WHAT UTTER BULLSHIT!
03:19:34 <cpressey> I thnk this was on A&E
03:19:51 <cpressey> Gee, television, who'd have thought *you'd* ever distort history.
03:19:56 <cpressey> btw, hi lament!
03:20:10 <pikhq> cpressey: Oh, I'm not saying that MS's Altair BASIC was pirated from some other author.
03:20:26 <pikhq> cpressey: I'm saying it was made popular due to being pirated a lot is all.
03:20:38 <pikhq> Much like other Microsoft software.
03:20:40 <cpressey> pikhq: Ah yes.
03:21:11 <pikhq> It's fairly well known and documented that Bill Gates actually wrote Altair BASIC.
03:21:22 <pikhq> I seem to recall that that was the last program he wrote much of, thoug.
03:22:05 <lament> hi
03:22:08 <lament> !
03:22:33 <alise_> pikhq: DONKEY.BAS
03:23:42 <Sgeo_> Warrigal is trying to get me to grasp complex calculus
03:24:08 <alise_> wait, where?
03:24:19 <alise_> pikhq: HE WROTE DONKEY.BAS DAMMIT
03:24:28 <alise_> Well, co-wrote.
03:24:32 <alise_> At 4am in the morning!
03:25:20 <cpressey> pikhq: Yes, that sounds right. He also co-authored a very trivial paper on a contrived model of computation (a computer where reversing a list is O(1), iirc). These things seem to be trotted out to make him look like a technical marvel. But, like Jeff Bezos, his real talent is in business.
03:26:07 <lament> a computer where reversing a list is O(1)
03:26:17 <cpressey> I only remember the one with the gorilla throwing bananas
03:26:22 <lament> that's really cool, no?
03:26:27 <lament> definitely esoteric material
03:26:51 <cpressey> lament: Academia manages to suck the fun out of these things
03:27:26 <cpressey> "The player drives a car and encounters a donkey in the road."
03:27:46 <cpressey> GORILLAS.BAS
03:27:49 <cpressey> there we go
03:28:17 <lament> cpressey: are you in grad school or something?
03:28:24 <cpressey> lament: HAHAHAHAHA
03:28:33 <cpressey> lament: No, like you, I have a job as a software developer
03:28:50 <cpressey> I'm not sure if grad school would be better or worse
03:29:06 <cpressey> Better in some respects, but completely insane in others
03:29:32 <lament> what i don't like about grad school is that it's a bunch of TOTAL DORKS
03:30:05 <cpressey> Total dorks that you have to explain yourself to
03:30:27 <Sgeo_> 0
03:30:28 <Sgeo_> erm
03:32:01 <alise_> GORILLAS.BAS is awesome
03:32:03 <alise_> and crap
03:32:09 <cpressey> lament: On the *other* hand... what kind of development methodology are you enveloped in? I am daily exposed to the SHEER WONDER that is "AGILE".
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03:32:57 <lament> wellllllllllll
03:33:29 <cpressey> Hey, I wonder if Gorillaz ever... no. Their website is much cooler than that.
03:33:36 <Sgeo_> I just talked to my dad
03:33:39 <lament> i'm mostly exposed to the paradigm of "let's get it working with minimal effort and if necessary we'll patch it up later"
03:33:48 <lament> i guess it's the essence of agile
03:33:51 <Sgeo_> He said that I was at a computer since I was 4, and I had a choce between programming and games
03:33:54 <Sgeo_> And I chose games
03:33:55 <Sgeo_> :/
03:34:00 <cpressey> \o/
03:34:01 <myndzi> |
03:34:01 <myndzi> /`\
03:34:05 <lament> but stripped of buzzwords it just feels like laziness and lack of work ethics
03:34:09 <lament> which is what it is :)
03:34:55 <cpressey> lament: That seems a lot better than being obsessed with sprints, estimation, what "points of effort" mean, "retros", "planning poker", etc etc
03:35:06 <lament> well yeah
03:35:16 <lament> our manager is a huge agile guy
03:35:24 <lament> thankfully he stays out of things
03:35:41 <alise_> <cpressey> Hey, I wonder if Gorillaz ever... no. Their website is much cooler than that. ;; haha
03:35:47 <lament> but he goes to conferences and stuff, and it's easy to see how terrible it is in other places
03:36:02 <lament> the worst i've seen was a deck of cards by the company i think Industrial Logic
03:36:15 <alise_> cpressey: omg, he changed the site
03:36:22 <lament> it's a deck of cards with witty quotes and various agile concepts
03:36:23 <alise_> cpressey: i think it is unwinnable now
03:36:30 <lament> truly a horror to behold
03:36:48 <alise_> (S9FES)
03:36:48 <lament> oh, here they are http://www.industriallogic.com/games/eppc.html
03:36:52 <alise_> *(S9fES)
03:37:03 <cpressey> "Question 4/3: As of 2008, which one was the last useful Scheme report? a: R3RS b: R4RS (arguably) c: R5RS (arguably) d: R6RS"
03:37:05 <alise_> no wait
03:37:19 <alise_> cpressey: ha, he's made it more opinionated
03:37:27 <cpressey> (arguably)
03:37:36 <alise_> oh it closes when you do anything else
03:37:37 <alise_> lol
03:38:17 <cpressey> lament: omg we only have "planning poker" cards that consist of a crippled fibonacci sequence
03:38:50 <alise_> The professor is shocked by the sudden return to reality. He starts to scream. A few seconds later campus security arrives and kicks you out of the building
03:39:01 <cpressey> I could (sadly) convince a large number of people that we need these better cards
03:39:06 <lament> cpressey: this one? http://www.industriallogic.com/games/pp.html
03:40:12 <lament> cpressey: it seems that the driving force beyond all these approaches is the perceptions that programmers are like children and their environment should be like kindergarten
03:40:25 <lament> cpressey: this is also the impression i got from google
03:40:44 <lament> s/beyond/behind
03:40:49 <lament> s/perceptions/perception
03:40:52 <cpressey> lament: lament No, not as interesing as those. We could just be using regular card, taking away 4, 6, 7, 9, etc
03:41:05 <lament> oh
03:41:24 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:42:01 <alise_> c: R5RS (arguably)
03:42:01 <alise_> c: R5RS (arguably)
03:42:04 <alise_> wut.
03:42:07 <alise_> why does it list it twice
03:42:10 <cpressey> Someone here (fizzie? pikhq?) made a sage observation that many of these "agile" things seem to be derived indirectly from role-playing games. Instead of a "dungeon master" there is a "scrum master", and you play these games with cards and tokens...
03:42:31 <lament> gosh
03:42:46 <Sgeo_> pikhq, is Sarah Palin actually running?
03:42:57 <Sgeo_> Or was that a sick and twisted joke designed to scare everyone here?
03:43:05 <cpressey> lament: Pardon my inaccuracy in typing. I've been drinking :)
03:43:15 <lament> haha
03:46:25 <cpressey> lament: On the plus side, I get to write code in Python (and sometimes Ruby), which, while it isn't ideal, isn't so bad.
03:48:38 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Really.
03:48:52 <Sgeo_> pikhq, linky?
03:49:04 <pikhq> Not handy!
03:49:27 <alise_> cpressey: I'm permuting all the answers to the quiz, hee.
03:49:36 <alise_> Except for the first question, whose answer I know.
03:49:45 <alise_> Abuh?
03:49:46 <alise_> or not.
03:49:48 <alise_> *Or not.
03:49:50 <alise_> It hasn't let me in for any of them.
03:50:00 <cpressey> alise_: I would gather from this that he doesn't *want* people using S9FES.
03:50:03 <lament> cpressey: i found i'm a huge fan of C#
03:50:05 <alise_> cpressey: He is... an odd charcater.
03:50:18 <alise_> cpressey: All down wit' that Buddhism and shit.
03:50:27 <alise_> Basically deleted his website recently. etc.
03:50:39 <alise_> His computer is like 932479435 years old because he doesn't believe in buying things.
03:51:09 <cpressey> lament: I... have yet to really get into C#, but what little I did do with it, didn't make me puke. It's Microsoft's Java, as far as I'm concerned :)
03:51:23 <Sgeo_> lament, I'm using C#!
03:51:32 <cpressey> I was vaguely plannig on writing a PL-{GOTO} compiler which targeted .NET
03:51:44 <cpressey> Thus, PL-{GOTO}.NET
03:51:50 <lament> well it's definitely better than java
03:52:08 <alise_> cpressey: Ooh, he's released a sci-fi novel!
03:52:09 <alise_> http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.t3x.org%2Fsf%2Findex.html
03:52:12 <alise_> "Fish room"
03:52:16 <alise_> one day to be Charles Beville his quiet job on board a small research spacecraft up from and is involved in an odyssey, the extent of his to gradually begins to understand first.
03:52:16 <alise_> The expedition in which he participates, has the goal of technology to explore an alien to humanity could permanently change the culture. Soon begins Beville, the effects of foreign influence in his own body felt.
03:52:16 <alise_> When the change occurs after all, but she looks completely different than the clients of the mission itself had imagined it.
03:52:18 <lament> it has nice things like type inference and lambdas
03:52:20 <alise_> Sounds enthralling.
03:52:37 <lament> but, i suppose like java, and much unlike for example haskell, it also has great debugging
03:52:43 <cpressey> alise_: Is this still Scheme 9 ?
03:52:58 <alise_> cpressey: Uhh, same guy.
03:53:10 <cpressey> lament: Yeah, Haskell's capacity for debugging is pretty meagre.
03:53:16 <cpressey> A mindset thing.
03:54:26 <cpressey> alise_: Same, weeeeird guy,
03:54:29 <cpressey> *.
03:55:12 <alise_> I think maybe I am taking the quiz in the wrong place, or something.
03:55:21 <alise_> Like, you have to enrol or something first.
03:55:31 <pikhq> Well. How exactly do you go about debugging something with completely non-obvious execution order?
03:56:01 <cpressey> pikhq: You don't. You PROVE that your program is CORRECT. Therefore, not debugging NECESSARY.
03:56:04 <cpressey> *no
03:56:22 <cpressey> alise_: Oh MAN.
03:56:22 <pikhq> cpressey: Nice theory, but Haskell's not really the language for that.
03:56:28 <alise_> "You are in a corridor. There are lots of doors, but they do not look inviting. There are other corridors to the south/east and to the south/west. One of the doors here looks somehow important."
03:56:36 <pikhq> Insufficient dependent typing.
03:56:37 <alise_> I did this before...
03:56:54 <cpressey> pikhq: It came to a crossroads. It... I'm not sure it chose the right path.
03:57:20 <cpressey> Or, as the case may be, corridor.
03:57:23 <alise_> Yeah, no permutation works.
03:58:24 <alise_> "You need a magnetic card to enter the room."
03:58:27 <alise_> How do I get one...
03:59:07 <cpressey> There's no really good reason you couldn't make a great Haskell debugger (ok -- let's call it an "execution visualizer" to not upset the locals.) But, it just seems, no one has.
03:59:52 <lament> cpressey: ahh but it's so nice to be able to just step through the code
04:00:01 <pikhq> cpressey: It'd have to be a bit complex, though, due to the heavily non-linear execution.
04:00:20 <lament> which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong
04:00:41 <cpressey> A bit complex, but you could mitigate it. This is being evaluated, because you asked for this, because you asked for this...
04:00:49 <pikhq> Probably work based off the model of graph reduction, with highlighting of currently-being-evaluated expressions.
04:00:53 <cpressey> lament: Fundamentally? :)
04:01:00 <pikhq> But yeah, totally doable if you had the urge.
04:01:30 <lament> cpressey: yes. no steps.
04:01:31 <cpressey> Tho I agree, most days I'd rather have a pure functional *eager* language.
04:01:43 <alise_> <lament> which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong
04:01:44 <alise_> <lament> which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong
04:01:47 <cpressey> Strangely, Erlang is closest to fitting that bill
04:01:48 <alise_> or you lack imagination
04:01:54 <alise_> (or are just used to imperativeness)
04:01:57 <alise_> ff
04:02:00 <pikhq> Actually, with that done, it'd become somewhat easy to add thread debugging.
04:02:01 <alise_> <lament> cpressey: ahh but it's so nice to be able to just step through the code
04:02:01 <alise_> <lament> which suggests that haskell's approach is fundamentally wrong
04:02:04 <alise_> is what i meant to quote
04:02:11 <lament> alise_: i just think debugging is more important than actually writing code
04:02:13 <pikhq> Highlight multiple expressions at once.
04:02:23 <lament> haskell makes writing code nice and pleasant, but debugging not so much
04:02:45 <lament> the reason debugging is more important is because it's twice as hard
04:03:10 <alise_> cpressey: HOW DO I DO THE GAME ;_;
04:03:22 <cpressey> It's not more important to me personally, but it certainly is, industrially speaking
04:03:24 <alise_> the S9fES game
04:03:35 <cpressey> alise_: FUCKED IFFEN *I* KNOW, MATE
04:03:46 <pikhq> lament: It's also harder to make bugs.
04:03:51 <alise_> cpressey: IFFEN?
04:03:54 <alise_> You really have been drinking.
04:04:01 <cpressey> *hic*
04:04:10 <pikhq> Which is... Probably how large Haskell programs manage to get written at all, really.
04:05:03 <lament> without bugs? :)
04:05:17 <pikhq> lament: No non-trivial program is without bugs.
04:05:18 <pikhq> :)
04:05:19 <cpressey> So... SIOD has a strange syntax for define... probably due to R4RS or something... (define (funcname arg1 arg2) ...)
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04:05:39 <cpressey> I'm used to (define funcname (arg1 arg2) ...)
04:05:47 <pikhq> Good static typing just makes certain classes of bugs damned hard to pull off is all.
04:05:53 <alise_> cpressey: ...
04:05:56 <alise_> cpressey: That's Scheme's syntax.
04:06:01 <alise_> (define foo (...)) is not Scheme at all.
04:06:06 <cpressey> alise_: Then I am used to something crap I guess!
04:06:08 <alise_> It has always been (define (foo ...) ...)
04:06:16 <alise_> cpressey: Common Lisp has (defun foo (...) ...).
04:06:19 <alise_> But that's defun, not define.
04:06:24 <cpressey> I'm used to whatever DrScheme has been giving me.
04:06:26 <alise_> How can you have defined a Scheme dialect and not know this?
04:06:29 <alise_> Uhh, DrScheme does it this way too.
04:06:33 <alise_> You're just drunk. :P
04:06:43 <cpressey> Oh I forgot! I hate (define ...) anyway.
04:06:53 <alise_> XDDD
04:07:01 <alise_> ur funay
04:07:11 <lament> at least define doesn't sound as discouraging as 'defun'
04:07:13 <alise_> cpressey: What's wrong with DEFINE?
04:07:30 <lament> function definition takes all the fun out of common lisp
04:07:45 <alise_> cpressey: OK, it definitely isn't the quiz.
04:07:51 <cpressey> alise_: Nothing except that it violates the whole lexical binding thing
04:07:59 <alise_> It ... doesn't.
04:08:05 <cpressey> Well it does kinda!
04:08:12 <lament> does NOT!
04:08:17 <cpressey> :(
04:08:25 <alise_> cpressey: How?
04:08:44 <bsmntbombdood> lament: yeah, use the y combinator instead
04:09:27 <cpressey> How to 'splain. Well. Uh. You say (define x y), and you've gone and mutated the set of bindings, right?
04:09:47 <alise_> Not really.
04:09:57 <alise_> In the head of a function, it actually just serves as a let around the entire thing.
04:10:01 <alise_> (You can't define after the head of a function.)
04:10:18 <lament> because SCHEME IS A NAZI LANGUAGE
04:10:20 <cpressey> You can't?
04:10:23 <alise_> You can't.
04:10:30 <alise_> You have to use let or set!.
04:10:31 <cpressey> See now that's wrong IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
04:10:34 <lament> what a dumb restriction
04:10:37 <alise_> No, it's right because it isn't mutation.
04:10:38 <lament> yeah it's wrong
04:10:43 <cpressey> :(
04:10:50 <alise_> It's more like ... a header.
04:11:05 <lament> well why is it not mutation?
04:11:07 <cpressey> Well... as a toplevel-only thing I can accept it... but only sort of
04:11:28 <lament> to make things easier for the optimizing compiler?
04:11:36 <lament> we all know THERE IS NO OPTIMIZING COMPILER.
04:11:38 <cpressey> And... I'm pretty sure I've seen it used badly. Maybe in a nonconforming scheme, but whay did I use excpet DrScheme?
04:11:49 <cpressey> OH DrScheme comes with a wicked "Jewels" game
04:12:14 <cpressey> Which was implemented on the Commodoree 64 as "Zoo Mania" where you match up animale heads instead
04:12:21 <pikhq> lament: We are opposed to MUTANTS. We should abort all infants with the X gene!
04:12:24 <alise_> cpressey: You know, DrScheme doesn't exist any more...
04:12:25 <pikhq> </xmen>
04:12:26 <cpressey> I played that constantly for a while
04:12:50 <cpressey> alise_: Yeah yeah. They REBRANDED.
04:12:53 <alise_> pikhq: We should abort all infants with the X chromosome!
04:12:58 <alise_> </X men and women>
04:13:08 <pikhq> alise_: ⁵
04:13:14 <alise_> pikhq: wat
04:13:16 <alise_> oh high five
04:13:16 <alise_> xD
04:13:31 <alise_> Also, post-term abortions!
04:13:38 <pikhq> Maddox approves.
04:13:49 <cpressey> lament: Heck yeah. Why SHOULD there be an optimizing compiler? ... Have you seen picoLisp? It's interesting.
04:14:03 <alise_> maddox is irritating
04:14:09 <cpressey> Why compile at all? You're just going to want to REFLECT and stuff anyway!
04:14:14 <alise_> cpressey: The great thing about Scheme is the lengths you go to to implement it.
04:14:29 * cpressey gets lost in a twisty little maze of passages, all alike.
04:14:44 <cpressey> alise_: Me personally, or the general "you"?
04:14:54 <alise_> cpressey: General.
04:15:07 <alise_> That control flow is FUN FUN FUN
04:15:12 <cpressey> That makes more sense than the ridiculous notions that were in *my* head.
04:15:29 <cpressey> Because I'm considering implementing Pixley in C.
04:15:39 <cpressey> Argh. Stupid to talk about such things.
04:15:59 <cpressey> Not smart to drink and IRC, either.
04:16:04 * cpressey falls asleep
04:16:22 * cpressey awakens with a shock
04:16:28 <cpressey> MUTANTS? WHERE?
04:16:52 <pikhq> *grooooaaaaan*
04:16:55 * lament points at alise_
04:16:58 <pikhq> "Torchwood" is an anagram of "Dr. Who".
04:17:03 <alise_> Yes.
04:17:04 <alise_> Yes it is.
04:17:11 <cpressey> OH hah it IS
04:17:11 <alise_> pikhq: *Doctor Who
04:17:15 <pikhq> alise_: XD
04:17:31 <alise_> And that's canon inside the universe.
04:17:38 <pikhq> *double effing groan*
04:17:40 <alise_> First person to figure that out will escape the Matrix that is the canon.
04:17:44 <alise_> pikhq: No, not the anagram.
04:17:47 <alise_> Just the name.
04:17:51 <pikhq> Oh, okay.
04:17:53 <alise_> So ... yeah.
04:18:03 <alise_> pikhq: It's not like Doctor Who has canon though.
04:18:04 <alise_> Or plots.
04:18:09 <alise_> Or actual characters.
04:18:13 <cpressey> Hey!
04:18:28 <pikhq> alise_: It has canon. Just highly mutable.
04:18:31 <cpressey> I have fond memories of real Dr. Who, like I have fond memories of the Amiga 500.
04:18:37 <alise_> pikhq: Suuure.
04:18:53 <alise_> cpressey: The old series was shit; the new series is... mildly entertaining shit.
04:18:56 <pikhq> And it has plots. Characters? Well. Each arbitrary grouping of seasons does.
04:19:06 <cpressey> OK, so, uh, most of the characters were not *actually* well developed, but -- hey!
04:19:16 <alise_> pikhq: No, it has characterisations.
04:19:21 <alise_> Characters have actual personalities.
04:19:23 <pikhq> alise_: I quite like what classic Who I've seen. Sure, it's cheesy, but it's enjoyable.
04:19:35 <alise_> The plots... well... strings of bad guys is more accurate.
04:19:59 <cpressey> alise_: What people don't understand is that classic (Baker #1) Dr. Who is *not* sci-fi. It's horror.
04:20:09 <alise_> But it's not horrific.
04:20:28 <cpressey> Whatever. I love the shit.
04:20:31 <pikhq> cpressey: I prefer to call all of Doctor Who fantasy.
04:20:51 <pikhq> Because, well. It ain't exactly sci-fi, now is it?
04:20:57 <alise_> omg Patrick Stewart should be the next Doctor
04:21:06 <coppro> yeees
04:21:09 <cpressey> pikhq: It's sci-fi-coloured, sometimes.
04:21:13 <pikhq> (I have a somewhat broad notion of "fantasy" and a strict notion of "sci-fi", though)
04:21:16 <pikhq> cpressey: Quite true.
04:21:19 <alise_> Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the U.S.S. TARDISprise.
04:21:31 <cpressey> Bah!
04:21:31 <pikhq> alise_: Yes. Patrick Stewart makes things better just by being there.
04:21:47 <cpressey> Patrick Stewart as a renegade Time Lord -- fine.
04:21:54 <pikhq> Imagine how painful TNG season I would be if Patrick Stewart weren't there.
04:21:55 <alise_> If anyone hasn't seen Patrick Stewart on Extras, WATCH RIGHT NOW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg_cwI1Xj4M
04:22:23 <cpressey> Patrick Stewart, actually, thinking about it, would make a kick-ass renegade Time Lord.
04:22:26 <alise_> (It has a joke at the expense of Star Trek, if you want an additional excuse.)
04:22:35 <Sgeo_> My comp's being a prick
04:22:42 <cpressey> Insofar as "kick-ass" is an appropriate adjective to use here, whcih it isn't.
04:22:50 <lament> lime turd?
04:24:24 <cpressey> Y'know what else I have fond memories of, from that Dr. Who-and-Amiga-500 time?
04:24:28 <cpressey> Dirty Pair.
04:24:34 <cpressey> The original.
04:25:33 <cpressey> Ah yes, the late 80's, and Canada, like the rest of North America, was just catching on to this new craze coming out of Japan -- a particular style of animation.
04:25:44 <cpressey> We actually called it "Japanimation" at the time.
04:26:23 <cpressey> There was an interest group for it in Manitoba, called M.A.N.G.A. Manitobans (something) New Generation Animation.
04:27:04 <cpressey> And there was this extremely schlocky, over-the-top, sci-fi-crime-drama(???) thing with these two chicks in "war bikinis".
04:27:27 <cpressey> Or was it the early 90's? Well, whatever.
04:28:32 <pikhq> It still befuddles me that we use the Japanese word for "animation" to refer to a Japanese style *of* animation.
04:28:54 <pikhq> Well, rather, a *set* of Japanese styles of animation.
04:29:01 <pikhq> It's not even a single style.
04:29:19 * cpressey is superdeformed
04:30:08 <pikhq> teme tihì ni na'ta!
04:31:45 * Sgeo_ lols at alise's video
04:33:19 <cpressey> alise_: Damn! You're right about (define (foo x) (* x x)) -- I must have been hallucinating the (define foo (x) (* x x)) syntax...
04:33:36 <cpressey> Oh Kay
04:34:04 <alise_> I am never wrong.
04:35:26 <cpressey> So anyway, Pixley, under SIOD, under Amiga 500? It is borderline possible.
04:36:23 <Sgeo_> alise_, you thought I was drunk yesterday.
04:36:32 <alise_> You were.
04:36:34 <alise_> Or faking it.
04:37:30 <oerjan> *<alise_> I am never wrong in a way I cannot argue my way out of.
04:37:47 <cpressey> Sgeo was descriptively drunk yesterday, if not prescriptively so.
04:38:01 <alise_> oerjan: NO I'M NOT
04:38:02 * oerjan whistles innocently
04:38:38 <cpressey> <3 all <3-able things
04:38:48 <cpressey> (now THAT is drunk)
04:39:18 <Sgeo_> Nazis are, in theory, <3 able, if not sanely so
04:40:02 <alise_> goodnight
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04:43:18 <alise> cpressey:
04:43:19 <alise> "There is a horizontal division in this playfield, splitting it into regions called le ciel, on top, and la terre, below."
04:43:23 <alise> horizontal yet on top/below?
04:43:25 <alise> perhaps a bug.
04:43:27 <alise> re-bye
04:43:29 <alise> Goodnight.
04:43:33 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:43:44 <cpressey> alise: good
04:43:47 <cpressey> niht
04:43:53 <Sgeo_> cpressey, alise left
04:44:02 <cpressey> yup
04:44:30 <cpressey> "horizontal division" meaning, there is a horizontal line dividing up-part from down-part
04:45:49 <cpressey> ok anyway there are these two worlds, computation, and cybernetics.
04:46:06 <cpressey> no -- this is not to do with digigm
04:46:12 <cpressey> ok never mind
04:46:26 * cpressey seeks water
04:57:51 <cpressey> YOU HAVE NO IDEA (actually you do)
04:58:30 <cpressey> YOU HAVE NO IKEA (unless you do. CHRIS is a kind of corkboard, iirc)
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04:58:57 <cpressey> oerjan: You and I, we're the old farts here, aren't we?
04:59:25 <cpressey> I should probably learn to appreciate the solace that is The Pun.
05:00:10 <oerjan> i thought you were only in your twenties...
05:00:14 <cpressey> !
05:00:15 <oerjan> oh wait
05:00:19 <lament> you're certainly farts
05:00:35 <cpressey> I'm.... closer to my forties than I want to think about right now, thanks/.
05:00:38 <oerjan> hard to do if you invented befunge in 1993
05:01:07 <cpressey> A bit, yeah.
05:01:08 <oerjan> not _impossible_, but...
05:02:07 <oerjan> well i can at least take comfort in the fact i cannot get _closer_ to forty...
05:02:35 <oerjan> assuming that is a bad thing, you know.
05:04:11 <cpressey> Nothing wrong with maturity. Not that I have any...
05:05:43 <oerjan> no maturity here
05:06:58 <pikhq> Maturity? This is IRC.
05:13:35 <cpressey> I have never written a Mandelbrot generator.
05:14:02 <cpressey> I wonder if I will EVER write a Mandelbrot generator. Or if I will DIE first.
05:14:42 <cpressey> But Chris! Really, aren't there already ENOUGH Mandelbrot generators on this planet? Well, yes, probably.
05:15:26 <oerjan> i guess i _am_ an old fart, i distinctly recall i wrote a mandelbrot generator in the 80's
05:16:28 <pikhq> I distinctly recall only barely being able to be called "existing" in the 80s.
05:18:28 <cpressey> In the 80's, such things would have been fairly cutting-edge. I only remember fractals taking a share of the public imagination in the mid-90's
05:18:42 <cpressey> Popcorn Julia
05:19:36 <pikhq> cpressey: Except for people who programmed home computers.
05:20:05 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that fractal generators became a fairly common thing to write about when you had enough graphics capabilities to render one.
05:20:30 <cpressey> pikhq: And/or had subscriptions to Amiga Factor magazine.
05:20:36 <cpressey> Actually, I am making that up.
05:20:41 <pikhq> XD
05:20:47 <cpressey> I have no idea what the name of the magazine actually was.
05:26:50 <cpressey> So there are these two worlds, computation and cybernetics, but actually they are kind of duals of each other. Well, forgive me for being drunk, but it's not like I'd make more sense with this when I'm sober, I'm just more inclined to write it, now...
05:28:09 <cpressey> Computation: we want computers to be extensions of our own minds, to augment the *joy* that comes from thinking and reasoning. Cybernetics: we want computers to *replace* our own minds, to automate stuff we don't care about, to reduce the *drudgery* of thinking and reasoning.
05:28:28 <lament> s/thinking/drinking
05:28:45 <cpressey> Ohhh Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant
05:29:13 <lament> cpressey: do you play Go?
05:29:57 <cpressey> lament: hM. Actually, no. I know there are several variations, and that it is a very intellectually hard game
05:30:14 <cpressey> Used to play chess. Don't anymore. Kind of boring.
05:30:48 <lament> ok
05:31:05 <cpressey> lament: Is go something you play?
05:31:08 <lament> i really like go but kinda hate playing it
05:31:09 <lament> yeah
05:31:39 <lament> it's a very pretty game, the problem is that it's still a competitive activity
05:34:10 <cpressey> Yeah. Competition -- gee, speaking of maturity... I prefer more indirect forms of competition too.
05:34:36 <cpressey> I remember a "Go-Moku" game on the Apple II. It was nigh impossible to beat.
05:35:11 <cpressey> Also... implementing a much simpler variation of it, as a class project, for a data structures course, the 1st time I went to university (in the early 90's.)
05:35:24 <cpressey> Don't remember what that variation was called, though.
05:35:39 <lament> probably go-moku
05:35:44 <lament> it doesn't get any simpler
05:35:56 <lament> the one with complicated rules is called renju
05:36:03 <cpressey> Hm
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05:37:52 <cpressey> I'm pretty sure it had a weird name that I don't recall :/
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05:38:38 <cpressey> ALso, I had a friend in high school, who went on to become an academic who was part of a team who proved some properties about Go and similar games (at U Alberta).
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05:39:15 <lament> cool
05:39:17 -!- augur has joined.
05:39:28 <lament> academia sure takes all fun out of stuff :)
05:40:12 <pikhq> *echm*
05:40:14 <pikhq> MOX
05:41:00 <cpressey> lament: yup. Something about enumerating all possible games of Checkers, ISTR
05:42:33 <coppro> cpressey: where do you live?
05:43:26 <cpressey> coppro: Chicago
05:43:29 <cpressey> currently
05:43:33 <cpressey> Used to be in Canada.
05:43:48 <coppro> ah, neat
05:44:05 <pikhq> cpressey: I take it you love US immigration now. :P
05:45:09 <coppro> where in Canada?
05:45:12 <cpressey> pikhq: Love? Eh well um...
05:45:23 <pikhq> Sarcasm.
05:45:48 <cpressey> coppro: Originally Winnipeg, Manitoba. Then Vancouver BC for a while. And for a very brief period, Windsor, Ontario!
05:46:19 <coppro> cool
05:50:07 <cpressey> Winnipeg used to be a really nice city. I miss it sometimes. It's gone a bit downhill, though. (everyone with any potential, left :/ )
05:51:32 <coppro> lol
05:51:48 * coppro is just now moving to Waterloo
05:52:14 <cpressey> Ha, I remembered someone here is going to U Waterloo, but I thought it was pikhq
05:52:45 <pikhq> Not I.
05:53:02 <cpressey> and lament is presumably still in Canada, based on the shawcable address
05:53:11 <lament> what do you mean still
05:53:32 <cpressey> ok, maybe not still. now.
05:53:53 <cpressey> at one point, you was, at this point, you is. who knows about in-between?
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05:58:03 <lament> ommm
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06:06:42 <kareem> hi
06:09:31 -!- kareem has left (?).
06:10:06 <lament> bye
06:11:01 <cpressey> kareem was here earlier, I thought we scared him off with all the talk of HUMAN SACRIFICE
06:11:11 <cpressey> of course, could be a different kareem
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06:45:38 <cpressey> hahaha stage 24
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07:14:29 <Sgeo_> ...My Active Worlds citnum is going to be in the Factor docs
07:15:16 <Sgeo_> Or maybe not
07:16:29 <Sgeo_> [ 1 1 + . continue 1 1 + . ] callcc0
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07:21:34 <Sgeo_> [ dup continue-with ] callcc1
07:21:42 <Sgeo_> Results in a continuation all by itself
07:29:06 <fizzie> (call/cc (lambda (k) (k k)))
07:29:45 <Sgeo_> Indeed
07:35:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:36:54 <Sgeo_> Yep, my citnum's there
07:38:13 -!- zzo38 has joined.
07:38:24 <zzo38> I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!
07:40:12 <fizzie> Nnnnnnobody does.
07:42:20 <Sgeo_> http://github.com/doublec/factor/commit/639972379f3684792411909be3e8f06ac15c4ca9
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07:45:56 <zzo38> Sgeo_: What is that?
07:46:16 <Sgeo_> Some documentation for pattern matching in Factor
07:46:25 <Sgeo_> It was previously incorrect, now it's correct
07:46:38 <Sgeo_> And as an example value, they used _my_ citnum in Active Worlds
07:49:18 <zzo38> What is a citnum in Active Worlds?
07:49:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:49:39 -!- augur has joined.
07:50:16 <Sgeo_> zzo38, on registration, users are given a uniquely identifying number
07:50:33 <Sgeo_> And choose a name, but the name can be changed anytime. The citnum is permanent
07:50:45 <fizzie> I am not a number, I am a free man!
07:51:29 * Sgeo_ is proud to be the number 346126
07:53:30 -!- comex_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:54:02 * Sgeo_ needs sleep eventually
07:54:04 <zzo38> So that is the account number?
07:54:48 <Sgeo_> Yes
07:54:55 <Sgeo_> It's not private information, though
07:55:03 <Sgeo_> Anyone in AW can see anyone else's citnum
07:55:16 <zzo38> OK
07:55:33 <zzo38> Now you can see what the templates I created on the esolang wiki are for......
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08:05:19 <Sgeo_> Night all
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08:51:10 <oklopol> "<Vorpal> there are sooo many ways to play a violin. Try rendering anything by Paganini in midi. I doubt the result will be even passable" <<< yeah paganini is bullshit, he just knew how to make cool sounds with a violin
08:51:50 <lament> true
08:51:59 <lament> anything by bach would still sound good
09:09:26 <oklopol> "<lament> academia sure takes all fun out of stuff :)" <<< no
09:12:27 <oklopol> all true fun resides in academia, games are just one reflection of that fun on the outside, losing most of its inherent funity
09:13:33 <oklopol> *their
09:13:57 <oklopol> i'm gonna go to uni, you know, for fun ->
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14:49:32 <nooga> hei
14:50:27 <oerjan> witaj
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15:55:41 <nooga> oerjan: that was... unexpected
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15:55:59 <nooga> in fact, we also say 'hej' in Polish
15:56:10 <nooga> the difference is i->j
15:56:31 <oerjan> oh
16:01:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:09:18 <cpressey> Unsurprisingly, the latest version of SIOD does not build out-of-the-box on Linux. This is unsurprising because the latest version of SIOD is from 1996.
16:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> SIOD?
16:17:50 <cpressey> Scheme In One Def(un|ine)
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16:34:11 <nooga> SIOD?
16:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahahahahahahahaha
16:34:54 <oerjan> simultaneously in other dimension
16:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover> That sounds like a good idea for an esolang!
16:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, isn't that just terrible design?
16:39:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, other dimensional computing sounds similar to quantum computing.
16:40:59 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Probably, but I have yet to see it have any meaning, in the implementation.
16:41:44 <cpressey> The C code is formatted like Lisp: curly bracket that ends a function definition is on the same line as the last statement of the function.
16:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Neat.
16:44:14 <Sgeo_> Scheme in one defun, to actually answer nooga's question
16:45:16 <nooga> heh
16:45:33 <nooga> news flash:
16:45:38 * nooga has got skin cancer
16:45:43 <nooga> this sucks
16:45:48 <oerjan> eek
16:45:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
16:45:56 <nooga> but it's curable
16:46:15 <nooga> ... i hope :D
16:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> A skinectomy!
16:46:24 <nooga> uhum
16:50:04 <nooga> well, i'm experimenting with an interesting OISC
16:50:51 <nooga> luckily it's not BRAIN cancer ;f
16:51:04 <oerjan> ominously irridescent skin cancer
16:51:23 <oerjan> *iridescent
16:52:11 <nooga> ?
16:52:21 <Phantom_Hoover> OISC
16:52:29 <nooga> wtf :D
16:52:33 <oerjan> body ravaging alien infecting nanobots
16:52:39 <Gregor> "Doctor, my skin is glowing."
16:52:43 <Gregor> "It's nothing to worry about."
16:52:45 <nooga> oerjan: cut that out!
16:52:52 <Gregor> "Thanks doctor!" *dies*
16:53:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Nugget of osmium: go away!
16:53:30 <nooga> -,
16:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, Engelbert? John and Nancy?
16:54:49 <Phantom_Hoover> AAARG
16:54:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Forgot the r!
16:55:02 * Phantom_Hoover commits seppuku.
16:55:27 <nooga> please hang tom
16:55:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Pht?
16:56:30 <nooga> P HAN TOM
16:56:55 -!- nooga has changed nick to wnghtr.
16:56:59 <wnghtr> try now
16:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> What? nooga got harder to remember?
16:57:43 -!- wnghtr has changed nick to chrzaszcz.
16:58:12 <chrzaszcz> a -> ą
16:59:08 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, have robots zapped augur so zebras can zoom?
16:59:31 <oerjan> a pertinent question
16:59:45 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Just a minute, I'll check.
16:59:55 <chrzaszcz> hell, you're good
16:59:56 <cpressey> augur: Have robots zapped you, and if so, did they say why?
17:00:20 -!- tombom has joined.
17:02:19 <Phantom_Hoover> The overall madness beats orange mangoes.
17:04:09 <cpressey> Please hold, as nasty thoughts of my head ooze over virtually every riddle.
17:05:06 <oklofok> !help
17:05:08 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:05:14 <oklofok> `help
17:05:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Come, put rioja everywhere! So sudden enter you!
17:05:22 <oklofok> i have no idea what fungot is
17:05:23 <fungot> oklofok: versus just going to play one more game that's it and ah he used to smoke
17:05:23 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:05:28 <oklofok> fungot: help
17:05:29 <fungot> oklofok: ( ( laughter)) irrelevant but i'm certain that nobody i know does either right so like it's nice to
17:05:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ^help
17:05:36 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
17:05:40 <oklofok> rrright
17:05:53 <oklofok> i want that one that does ababa baba aba ba a
17:06:08 <oklofok> although what i was trying to do is obvious from that
17:06:11 <Phantom_Hoover> ^show
17:06:11 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord test
17:06:13 <oklofok> so i guess it's pointless to continue
17:06:16 <oklofok> right
17:06:18 <oklofok> ^choo cpressey
17:06:19 <fungot> cpressey pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:06:48 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, have robots zapped augur so zebras can zoom? <--- is there any reasonable context for it? Reading the preceding 20 lines indicates there isn't?
17:06:59 <Phantom_Hoover> XD
17:07:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, after turning on the monitor that is quite a strange first line to read
17:11:37 <cpressey> ^choo oklofok
17:11:38 <fungot> oklofok klofok lofok ofok fok ok k
17:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vehemently oppose repression! Pah! All lies!
17:12:42 -!- distant_figure has joined.
17:13:28 <cpressey> Funny, undertakers never go over there.
17:16:13 -!- chrzaszcz has changed nick to ereswmara.
17:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Eris rues everything Swedish when Mr Arvid reads again.
17:17:48 <ereswmara> ^choo oohc^
17:17:48 <fungot> oohc^ ohc^ hc^ c^ ^
17:18:05 <ereswmara> ^choo ^choo
17:18:05 <fungot> ^choo choo hoo oo o
17:18:10 <ereswmara> beh
17:18:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ^cho cho
17:18:20 <fungot> chohoo
17:18:27 <Phantom_Hoover> ^cho foo
17:18:27 <fungot> fooooo
17:18:29 <ereswmara> i wanted loop
17:18:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ^cho hello
17:18:34 <fungot> helloellolloloo
17:18:38 -!- alise has joined.
17:19:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Aha! Little Ivan says everything!
17:19:54 -!- lament has joined.
17:20:10 <alise> 08:45:38 * nooga has got skin cancer
17:20:12 <alise> RIP
17:20:48 <oerjan> ereswmara: no bots see their own messages at all, and most ignore the other bots as well
17:20:49 <ereswmara> At least I'm sober ecofreak
17:20:52 <cpressey> ^cho oklopol
17:20:53 <fungot> oklopolklopollopolopolpololl
17:21:01 <oerjan> alise: yes rip it off quickly
17:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Lo! A man everyone notes tersely!
17:21:13 <ereswmara> alise: oh shut up, it's not deadly
17:21:24 <Sgeo_> alise, my AW citnum is in Factor documentation
17:21:29 <alise> ereswmara: Awwwwwww. (Kidding; try not to die.)
17:21:31 <alise> Sgeo_: ?
17:21:49 <alise> ^cho ITRALCEN
17:21:59 <Sgeo_> http://github.com/doublec/factor/commit/639972379f3684792411909be3e8f06ac15c4ca9
17:22:07 <alise> doublec/factor != Factor
17:22:17 <alise> == one fork of factor
17:22:25 <alise> also, i don't get it
17:22:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So, green empires own?
17:22:45 <Sgeo_> alise, I pointed out an issue with Factor's documentation regarding pattern matching
17:22:45 <alise> Sgeo_: did you suggest that just because it's your number thing?
17:23:02 <alise> if so, I hope you pointed it out. otherwise it's disingenuous.
17:23:09 <Sgeo_> I jokingly said 346126, mentioned what it was, and they included it
17:23:31 <Sgeo_> Although slava jokingly asked for cc and/or social security as a more real-life exampke
17:23:33 <Sgeo_> *example
17:24:06 <alise> he may not have been joking.
17:25:25 <oklofok> alise: what lev
17:25:29 <oklofok> still playing?
17:26:04 <alise> oklofok: not right now, but i'm up to 66
17:26:09 <alise> which i can't logisticate properly
17:26:12 <alise> you?
17:26:26 <oklofok> ass-licking idiotic shit eel
17:26:47 <oklofok> 64, i played a couple minutes just now
17:26:58 <Sgeo_> I'll cheat to help you
17:26:59 <oklofok> 64 was trivial once i did spaces with my right hand
17:27:01 <alise> i can give you a walkthrough for it
17:27:04 <oklofok> my leftie sucks
17:27:08 <oklofok> apparently :(
17:27:09 <alise> 64 is a puzzle
17:27:12 <oklofok> i know
17:27:14 <alise> not a space raper
17:27:22 <alise> so have you finished it
17:27:25 <oklofok> yeah but i mean the one i was stuck in yesterday
17:27:30 <oklofok> i haven't tried 64
17:27:37 <oklofok> errrr
17:27:50 <oklofok> "<oklofok> 64 was trivial once i did spaces with my right hand" <<< i see what may have confused you
17:28:09 <oklofok> by 64 i - obviously - meant 60
17:28:39 <alise> 23:21:34 <Sgeo_> [ dup continue-with ] callcc1
17:28:41 <alise> [ ] callcc1
17:28:52 <alise> oklofok: :)
17:29:00 <oklofok> so to recap, 60 was easy with hand switch, and three after that were triv, 64 i haven't tried because i remember it took a bit of thinking
17:29:10 <alise> oklofok: i can tell you the order
17:29:11 <alise> after that it's easy
17:29:14 <alise> if you just go fast
17:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, where from?
17:29:17 <Sgeo_> Hmm, good point
17:29:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ?
17:29:45 <oklofok> i'll ask you if i get stuck
17:29:51 <cpressey> go fast and try not to die
17:29:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo's quotes
17:29:59 <alise> logs
17:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh? Kleptomaniacs leave obelisks for other kings.
17:31:17 * oklofok is trying to see if that makes sense
17:31:22 * Sgeo_ hits Phantom_Hoover with an ettin
17:31:38 * Sgeo_ watches the ettin leave an obelisk
17:31:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Shpwan?
17:31:49 <cpressey> i would have thought kleptomaniacs would want to *take* obelisks *away* from kings
17:32:10 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's an exception.
17:32:18 <Phantom_Hoover> That's why I bothered to mention it.
17:32:28 <cpressey> Boo-yah!
17:32:49 * Sgeo_ hits alise with a reference recognition failure
17:36:10 * cpressey euuhs
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17:38:08 <cpressey> so I want to have a functionalish language where 'take-argument' and 'provide-argument' are dual operations (sort of)
17:39:33 <cpressey> er I have to think about this
17:43:53 <cpressey> basically so along with currying, there is a "yrrucing" operation, which takes a function and yields a new function which requires one more argument
17:44:47 <cpressey> currying and yrrucing should ideally have nice algebraic properties, but they probably don't
17:46:35 <Phantom_Hoover> But what will yrrucing do with the extra argument?
17:47:06 <cpressey> make it available to the function. i was originally thinking in terms of named arguments. now i'm not, i think this is simpler.
17:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose you could argue that lambda yrrucs, then.
17:47:36 <cpressey> yes, in a way it does. i wonder if that's what i'm thinking of
17:47:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes
17:47:57 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, inventor of the lambda term.
17:48:01 <cpressey> \o/
17:48:01 <myndzi> |
17:48:01 <myndzi> /<
17:48:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, it's less screwy when you do it.
17:48:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to phntmh.
17:48:42 <phntmh> \o/
17:48:43 <myndzi> |
17:48:43 <myndzi> /|
17:48:56 -!- phntmh has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
17:49:04 <cpressey> What happens when you do it?
17:49:32 -!- cpressey has changed nick to Photon_Hamster.
17:49:36 <Photon_Hamster> \o/
17:49:36 <myndzi> |
17:49:36 <myndzi> /<
17:49:42 -!- Photon_Hamster has changed nick to cpressey.
17:50:15 -!- cpressey has changed nick to pzth.
17:50:18 <pzth> \o/
17:50:24 <oerjan> !haskell map sort ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"]
17:50:28 <pzth> Indeed.
17:50:32 -!- pzth has changed nick to cpressey.
17:50:50 <oerjan> !haskell map List.sort ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"]
17:50:52 <EgoBot> ["HP_aehmnooortv","HP_aehmnoorstt"]
17:51:14 <cpressey> That was a lot funnier than I expected it to be
17:52:20 <Sgeo_> http://superosity.keenspot.com/
17:53:05 <oklofok> !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= sort
17:53:11 <cpressey> oerjan: Good thing both my nick and Phantom_Hoover's are strings, or you wouldn't have been able to put them both in a Haskell list.
17:53:26 <oklofok> oh
17:53:34 * cpressey wants a non-string-type nick
17:53:35 <oklofok> !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= return . sort
17:53:44 <oklofok> well fuck you too
17:53:44 <oerjan> oklofok: you need the List.
17:54:42 <oklofok> sorry not following
17:55:02 <oerjan> oklofok: i corrected it above
17:55:12 <oklofok> ...oh
17:55:20 <oklofok> !haskell ["Phantom_Hoover", "Photon_Hamster"] >>= List.sort
17:55:22 <EgoBot> "HP_aehmnooortvHP_aehmnoorstt"
17:55:26 <oklofok> ooookay
17:55:46 <oklofok> now i wonder why i thought i need a return
17:56:12 <oerjan> to avoid concatenation?
17:56:48 <oklofok> no, but yeah i guess that's what it does
18:04:03 * Phantom_Hoover notes that octothorpe is actually a real name for the hash sign.
18:04:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Why was I not informed of this?
18:04:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: what's in my head for yrruc is not quite a lambda form, though you could use it as one. actually, it should be ylppa, because it's a dual of application, not currying.
18:04:41 <Sgeo_> Why isn't there a Factor bot in here?
18:04:45 <Phantom_Hoover> And why do Americans call hash "pound"?
18:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Pound is £!
18:05:40 <cpressey> "You look like 10# of Falcon in a 5# bag, son"
18:06:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Ugh, Imperial measurements and confusion with currency.
18:06:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: And I blame *you* for nail sizes being called "pennies" and abbreviated "d".
18:07:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, nail sizes? As in the little pointy things?
18:07:31 <cpressey> The little metal spikes you hammer into wood. Yes.
18:07:46 * Phantom_Hoover boggles that you need separate sizes for them
18:08:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Why can't you just give length and diameter?
18:08:58 <cpressey> blacksmiths liked pennies better i guess.
18:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC pennies are abbreviated "d" because of LATIN
18:10:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And that is why the pound sign looks like an "L".
18:11:18 <oerjan> denarii iirc
18:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
18:11:48 <oerjan> and libra
18:11:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
18:12:09 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Is this meant to persuade me to cease blaming you for it? Not going to happen.
18:12:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Sestercii is presumably where the solidus comes from.
18:12:35 <oerjan> s/c/t/
18:12:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh?
18:12:57 <oerjan> sestertii
18:13:05 <Phantom_Hoover> And c and t?
18:13:25 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
18:13:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Your palm frond does not assist my confusion!
18:14:51 <oerjan> merely comparest thou thine own statement to my correction, shall all become clear
18:15:34 * Phantom_Hoover didn't realise that wasn't a solidus
18:15:59 <oerjan> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidus_(coin)
18:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I was referring to the strokey thing.
18:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Is that -----### meant to be a palm frond?
18:18:05 <oerjan> no, a fly swatter
18:18:57 <oerjan> "The names solidus and shilling mark have the same background."
18:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> ...What sort of fly swatter do you have?
18:19:09 <cpressey> When I borrowed it to swat Phantom_Hoover, it was a palm frond.
18:19:18 <cpressey> It is clearly a magical object of some kind.
18:19:29 <oerjan> cpressey: definitely not what you borrowed, it had too many #'s
18:19:53 <cpressey> oerjan: All kinds of junk lying around here -- I must have picked up the wrong thing.
18:20:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's had pieces added before
18:20:35 <oerjan> and someone ate or stole the previous one, iirc
18:20:38 * Phantom_Hoover grabs something and hits oerjan with it ~~~~~@@@
18:20:44 <oerjan> eeewww
18:20:56 <cpressey> awk doesn't seem to have higher-order functions :(
18:21:33 <cpressey> omg there's an #awk
18:21:55 <cpressey> i shouldn't report these findings
18:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, so can you give further details on yrruc?
18:22:01 * oerjan gawks awkwardly at #awk
18:22:02 <cpressey> not yet
18:22:29 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, why shouldn't you report?
18:22:54 <cpressey> people here just follow me into them!
18:23:06 * oerjan didn't actually join
18:25:06 <cpressey> no, but PH did. it's weird though, many times when I join another channel, there is already someone from #esoteric there.
18:25:09 -!- madbr has joined.
18:25:10 <cpressey> imagine that huh?
18:25:49 <oerjan> i am sure there is some completely natural explanation that has nothing to do with us stalking you at all
18:28:25 <oerjan> unless it's Vorpal. i hear he is on every channel, ever. or something.
18:28:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
18:29:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:29:26 <fizzie> oerjan: He has his eyes everywhere! You can't hide from him!
18:30:21 <cpressey> Verily, omniscientally regarding perfectly all locations.
18:30:28 <oerjan> fizzie: although you can confuse him with parts of conversation he has missed
18:30:32 * Phantom_Hoover can confirm that Vorpal is not on ##gameoflife
18:30:40 <oerjan> he cannot keep _up_ everywhere, after all
18:32:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: my sources may have been slightly unreliable
18:34:06 <cpressey> ylppa(f,a) evaluates to f' which is like f except all occurrences of 'a' within it are replaceable. apply(f,a) replaces whatever is topmost replaceable in f with a.
18:34:33 <cpressey> sorry, i mean, apply(f,a) evaluates to f' which is like f with whatever was topmost replaceable in f replaced by a.
18:35:01 <cpressey> and i don't think apply actually evaluates; i think you need eval(f), and f must in that case have no replaceables
18:35:02 <Vorpal> <oerjan> unless it's Vorpal. i hear he is on every channel, ever. or something. <-- no, I'm on about 70 channels on freenode. In total a bit over 350 (yes I cut down heavily, used to be almost 500)
18:35:12 <Vorpal> freenode has way more channels, check /lusers
18:35:26 <Vorpal> * 37855 :channels formed
18:35:39 <Vorpal> sorry, make that "about 80" for freenode
18:35:42 <Vorpal> 84
18:36:08 <cpressey> this means: apply(ylppa(f,a),a) == f
18:36:10 <oerjan> in any case i recall you had to apply to get your channel limit lifted...
18:36:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes but they have increased it for everyone nowdays
18:36:30 <Vorpal> from the extremely silly 20
18:36:34 <Vorpal> to iirc 100
18:36:40 <Vorpal> so no problems any more
18:36:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, being on more than 20 channels is trivial
18:36:59 <oerjan> cpressey: that sounds rather close to lambda to me. i guess it could still do weird things with nesting
18:37:27 <cpressey> the main difference is that there are no "names" as such, just terms, i guess
18:38:15 <oerjan> so a could be any term?
18:38:36 <cpressey> that is the idea
18:38:51 <oerjan> ok then
18:39:14 <cpressey> "that is my idea. if you don't like it, i have others"
18:39:29 <cpressey> eh, it's funnier with "principles"
18:39:57 <oerjan> cpressey: that sounds like a zzo38 quote :D
18:40:57 <oerjan> secondciples
18:42:31 <cpressey> kingiples
18:45:36 <fizzie> Multiples.
18:47:25 * alise tries to make heads or tails of HAKMEM ITEM 172
18:47:28 <alise> <cpressey> this means: apply(ylppa(f,a),a) == f
18:47:33 <alise> cool, but what does ylppa actually do?
18:47:36 <alise> and how are you /still/ drunk?
18:48:02 <cpressey> No, just hungover. decided not to go on a long-weekend-long bender.
18:48:22 <oerjan> ylppa the geek
18:48:23 <cpressey> ylppa is... ah hell, just say it's lambda
18:48:23 <alise> so presumably we have some sort of quote-expression thing
18:48:25 <alise> so is
18:48:29 <alise> ylppa([a+2],a)
18:48:32 <alise> == \a -> a+2
18:48:33 <alise> ?
18:48:37 <alise> as opposed to
18:48:40 <alise> eval([a+2])
18:48:46 <alise> would only work if you have a local named a
18:49:02 <alise> apply(ylppa([a+2],a),42) == [42+2]
18:49:06 <alise> eval([42+2]) == 44
18:49:09 <alise> cpressey: it's not lambda
18:49:22 <alise> it turns a sort-of-dynamically-scoped quotation into a lexically-scoped lambda
18:49:29 <alise> (really an unscoped one, executing in the current scope)
18:49:32 <alise> cpressey: that's way cool.
18:49:43 <cpressey> alise: you might understand it better than i do
18:49:58 <alise> cpressey: i believe so.
18:50:01 <cpressey> yppla is lambda without names
18:50:06 <alise> nope
18:50:06 <cpressey> that was all i intended
18:50:08 <alise> well
18:50:10 <alise> sort of
18:50:21 <alise> cpressey: here's how i was viewing it
18:50:25 <alise> [a+2] is just some quoted code, right?
18:50:30 <cpressey> ok
18:50:37 <alise> a = 4; eval([a = 42])
18:50:42 <alise> now a is 42
18:50:47 <alise> but consider
18:51:03 <alise> a = 4; f = ylppa([a = 42], a); eval(apply(f, a))
18:51:10 <alise> assuming (x=y) is an expression returning y
18:51:18 <alise> the eval just evaluates to 42 and disregards the result
18:51:25 <alise> cpressey: so ylppa lifts a name into the []s closure
18:51:41 <alise> well it'd actually be ylppa([a = 42], 'a) where 'x is a symbol but you get the idea
18:52:02 -!- Hiant has joined.
18:53:04 <alise> cpressey: so what you have invented is really cool actually
18:53:08 <cpressey> yeah you need symbols don't you
18:53:22 <alise> cpressey: it's like lambda, except it operates on pre-existing functions
18:53:26 <alise> except
18:53:27 <alise> they aren't functions
18:53:29 <alise> they're just quoted code
18:53:30 <alise> ala Joy
18:53:38 <alise> (so they inherit your locals, as if an evalled string)
18:53:55 <cpressey> functions, quoted code, meh
18:54:01 <alise> rename proposed: instead of apply(f,x) we just write f*(x)
18:54:14 -!- Hiant has quit (Client Quit).
18:54:15 <alise> instead of ylppa(f,'a) we write ^('a,f)
18:54:18 <cpressey> i was originally going to use * for yppla and / for apply
18:54:29 <alise> oh, good idea
18:54:35 <cpressey> is it??
18:54:40 <alise> well, good enough
18:54:42 <alise> apply(f,x) -> f/x
18:54:47 <alise> ylppa(f,'a) -> 'a/f
18:54:53 <alise> eval(x) -> ^x
18:55:00 <alise> (because it lifts a quotation outside the [], evaluating it!)
18:55:03 <alise> so we have
18:55:10 <alise> ^[x] === x
18:55:20 <alise> erm
18:55:24 <alise> *ylppa(f,'a) -> 'a*f
18:55:26 <alise> and
18:56:03 -!- Hiant has joined.
18:56:05 <alise> ^(v*[q])/v === evaluating q, except the local v is restored at the end
18:56:42 <cpressey> alise: yeah i think this is all pretty close to what i was thinking on some level
18:57:08 <cpressey> as long as (x*y)/x = y, i'm happy
18:57:21 <alise> *'x*y, presumably
18:57:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:57:36 <alise> cpressey: well, sort of
18:57:43 <alise> ('x*[x])/42 = [42]
18:57:52 <alise> ('x*[x])/x = [<value of x>]
18:57:57 <alise> ('x*[x])/'x = ['x]
18:58:00 <alise> cpressey: so it isn't quite that
18:58:10 <cpressey> er right
18:58:11 <cpressey> damn
18:58:25 <cpressey> no
18:58:27 <cpressey> wait
18:58:28 <cpressey> er
18:58:35 * cpressey gets more coffee
18:58:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:58:54 -!- augur has joined.
18:59:10 <alise> hi ais523
18:59:25 <ais523> hi
18:59:49 <ais523> imagine I insert my normal warning here about being very angry in RL
19:00:10 <ais523> and ofc that isn't the fault of anyone here, but it can still make me snappy on occasion
19:01:16 <alise> ais523: I have no idea what that normal warning is; I don't recall you ever being angry.
19:01:22 <alise> But noted.
19:01:35 <ais523> it's along the lines of "I'm very angry/annoyed, but not with you"
19:01:47 <ais523> OTOH, being here generally helps to calm me down
19:01:51 <ais523> even if it doesn't actually help with anything
19:02:29 <alise> cpressey's come up with something that I understand better than him and think is awesome
19:03:02 <alise> it's a way to turn quotations that inherit their scope when you run them, that is, x=3; q=[x=(x+1)]; ^q ====> x is 4
19:03:06 <alise> into proper lexically-scoped lambdas
19:03:08 <cpressey> it lacks an algebraic property that i want, which is possibly why i don't see it as alise does
19:03:21 <alise> cpressey: yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to fix that
19:03:24 <alise> cpressey: oh! i know!
19:03:28 <alise> cpressey: apply takes a quotation, not a value
19:03:30 <alise> and inserts it in
19:03:43 <alise> so ('x*[x])/[x] == [x]
19:03:45 <cpressey> the algebraic property is perhaps not as useful as the... what you see in it
19:03:55 <alise> so ('x*[x+9])/[x+4] == [(x+4)+9]
19:04:13 <alise> so ('x*q)/[x] == q
19:04:24 <cpressey> alise: might work
19:05:35 -!- calamari has joined.
19:09:24 <cpressey> why not 'x == [x]? then [x]*[x+9]/[y]=[y+9] ... [9]*[x+9]/[y]=[x+y] ... [x+9]*[x+9]/[3]=[3]... and I believe x*y/x=y (using * with higher prec than / here)
19:09:46 <cpressey> x*x/y=y as well
19:10:01 <cpressey> that's... not so happily algebraic
19:10:34 <alise> well 'x as [x] is fine
19:10:39 <cpressey> well, x is a self-annihilator of some kind. x*x=1. where 1 is the identity
19:10:45 <alise> what?
19:10:45 <cpressey> for this... thing
19:10:50 <alise> i was just using x as a variable
19:11:00 <alise> x*x=1, aka x = 1
19:11:10 <cpressey> forall x, x*x = 1
19:11:29 <cpressey> identity is the wrong word
19:12:40 <alise> oh * not as in multiplication
19:12:41 <alise> :-D
19:12:46 <alise> well uh
19:12:54 <alise> cpressey: this is not making sense any more
19:12:58 <cpressey> x `ylppa` x == 1
19:13:00 <alise> i did your property
19:13:46 <cpressey> i think i'm using your version, just noting that [x] and 'x are the same
19:14:35 <alise> [x]*[x] = [x]*[x], there's no real other name for it
19:14:40 <alise> since it does something new to the language inexpressable otherwise
19:14:53 <alise> ([x]*[x])/[x] == [x], though
19:14:54 <cpressey> ok, not on same page
19:15:02 <alise> cpressey: ofc if we allow [x] to be ylppaed then we can do
19:15:08 <alise> ([42]*[42])/[3] == [3]
19:15:10 <alise> which is bizarre
19:15:40 <cpressey> [c]*[a+b+c] --> i'm going to need a new syntax for this
19:16:01 <oerjan> ([2]*[42])/[3] == [43]
19:16:03 <cpressey> [c]*[a+b+c] --> [a+b+()]
19:16:10 <alise> oerjan: ha
19:16:19 <cpressey> [a+b+()] / [c] --> [a+b+c]
19:16:25 <alise> cpressey: yes
19:16:28 <alise> also, make it $0, $1, etc
19:16:31 <alise> since you can ylppa something again
19:16:34 <cpressey> sure
19:16:36 <alise> also, let's say :c, not [c]
19:16:44 <cpressey> i like [c]
19:16:45 <alise> because making a hole out of arbitrary expressions is freaky
19:16:47 <alise> and i think unneeded
19:16:56 <alise> cpressey: [1+4]*[1+4+3]
19:17:06 <cpressey> arbitrary expressions was the point
19:17:08 <alise> (should [1+4]*[1+3+4] do anything? no? why not?)
19:17:16 <oerjan> Har du ylppat din varg idag?
19:17:20 <alise> (they're undistinguishable quotations in every other sense)
19:18:08 <alise> incidentally
19:18:09 <cpressey> ok, for my algebra's sake, in x*y and y/z, x y and z need to be the same "type"
19:18:16 <alise> you can get all of Valve's games for £52.99
19:18:21 <cpressey> so, arbitrary (quoted) expressions, all
19:18:28 <alise> (separately it'd cost £124.82)
19:18:41 <alise> <cpressey> ok, for my algebra's sake, in x*y and y/z, x y and z need to be the same "type"
19:18:42 <alise> same type?
19:18:45 <alise> what is a type?
19:19:12 <cpressey> anything you could stick into y, you can also stick into x, without going, "whoa that's freaky and unneeded"
19:19:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:19:47 <cpressey> this for algebra, note. for PL feature alone, if you think it's cool, i won't push it
19:20:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
19:21:00 <alise> yeah i'm just not getting this at all now :-D
19:21:15 <alise> btw Pixley-in-C should be easy. no continuations after all
19:21:15 <cpressey> ok, well... rome was not burned down in a day
19:21:23 <alise> assuming you don't mind very limited recursion
19:21:31 <cpressey> alise: i actually started it this morning, but gave up quickly
19:21:34 <alise> cpressey: xD
19:21:48 <alise> cpressey: want me to have a try at giving up?
19:21:50 <cpressey> simple, yes, but boring, plus i'm easily distracted,
19:21:56 <alise> cpressey: i assume you don't mind being recursion-limited to the size of the C stack
19:22:12 <cpressey> alise: you mean, you want to implement Pixley-in-C? be my guest
19:22:17 <alise> hmm, I take it bignums are considered required?
19:22:24 <cpressey> no nums in pixley
19:22:28 <cpressey> only symbols
19:22:29 <alise> oh, ha
19:22:34 <alise> like arrowlisp but not as pure
19:22:34 <cpressey> makes that part easy
19:22:46 <alise> arrowlisp: http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-arrowlisp-1175.html
19:22:50 <cpressey> if i knew arrowlisp, i'd say, yes! but i don't
19:22:52 <alise> purely symbolic lisp -- by Nils M. Holm, how coincidental.
19:23:50 <cpressey> i'm trying to figure out what i want to do, then i get distracted and i don't
19:23:55 <alise> cpressey: hmm, I have to do tail-call optimisation
19:24:01 <cpressey> bored through too many possibilities!
19:24:03 <alise> bugger, tree-walking will be a bit difficult
19:24:10 <alise> "There is no compiler, only a tree-walking interpreter. BTW, I do not think that there are many tree-walking interpreters out there that do tail call optimization. ArrowLISP does."
19:24:12 <alise> HOW CONVENIENT
19:24:18 <alise> although of course he's deleted the page.
19:24:23 <cpressey> just thread the tree
19:24:30 <cpressey> "just"
19:24:38 <alise> totally unhelpful sir
19:24:45 <cpressey> i don't know how that works out in this
19:24:53 <alise> wait, what do you mean by threading it?
19:25:06 <alise> a compiler may actually be easier than an interpreter
19:25:08 <alise> a la ichbins
19:25:21 <cpressey> in each node, attach a pointer to the "next" node in the evaluation sequence
19:25:31 <cpressey> *next
19:26:02 <cpressey> you're basically trampolining through the tree instead of walking it, after that
19:26:33 <cpressey> of course, at some points, you need to make decisions and/or store/restore savepoints
19:26:44 <cpressey> mostly just like a linear machine would
19:27:12 <alise> cpressey: i'm starting to think a compiler here would be the easiest thing
19:27:15 <cpressey> at any rate, i know you can do continuation-like/TCO-like stuff with a threaded tree, because i've done it before
19:27:25 <alise> I could even write it in Pixley (AIEEEEEEEE)
19:27:29 <cpressey> as long as the target language does what you want, is fine
19:27:36 <alise> -C
19:27:38 <alise> *->C
19:27:45 <alise> well, pixley with a wrapper to translate a bunch of symbols into a string
19:27:49 <cpressey> (that was why i did the tree threading when i did -- couldn't find a target language that i liked)
19:28:07 <alise> (abc def (lbrace)) -> "abcdef {"
19:28:22 <alise> hmm. that might be more than a little difficult
19:28:42 <alise> oh well, sounds fun anyway
19:28:52 <cpressey> i was thinking to just intern all symbols
19:28:55 <alise> although since it can't self-host without a wrapper, what's the point
19:29:01 <alise> cpressey: it needs symbol->string
19:29:16 <alise> wrt symbols: ichbins just makes them into C variables with a heap location as the value, iirc
19:29:21 <alise> or something
19:29:34 <cpressey> it can self-host without a wrapper, it's just ugly
19:30:16 <cpressey> if an interpreter literally embedded within an interpreter counts as self-hosting
19:30:45 <alise> cpressey: no, it can't, because it wouldn't be able to output the string
19:30:55 <cpressey> oh
19:31:01 <cpressey> sorry, misunderstood you
19:31:04 <alise> cpressey: because you have no string->symbol
19:31:08 <cpressey> right
19:31:32 <cpressey> you could use a postprocessor :)
19:31:40 <cpressey> uh
19:31:47 <alise> well, precisely, but then what is the point?
19:32:10 <alise> cpressey: my suggestion:
19:32:15 <alise> allow "..." but let it denote a symbol, not a string
19:32:20 <cpressey> (# (i (n (c (l (u (d (e (space (quote (s (t (d (i (o (quote (....
19:32:30 <alise> cpressey: that's what i said
19:32:32 <alise> but
19:32:35 <alise> don't you mean .
19:32:36 <alise> :)
19:32:38 <alise> in the middle of those
19:32:55 <cpressey> alise: mine was funnier!
19:33:08 <cpressey> and uh
19:33:10 <alise> cpressey: since Pixley has no way of distinguishing symbols from any hypothetical string,
19:33:14 <cpressey> does pixley have (a . b)? i forget
19:33:17 <alise> "foo" denoting a symbol would be fine
19:33:22 <alise> cpressey: presumably it has cons
19:33:32 <cpressey> it has cons
19:33:37 <alise> same thing then
19:33:40 <cpressey> you can (cons (quote a) (quote b)) iirc
19:33:54 <cpressey> oh, that would be marvellous
19:34:34 <alise> what would?
19:34:39 <alise> "foo" being a symbol?
19:34:52 <cpressey> wait, ArrowLisp and Scheme 9... oh yeah, you said.
19:35:07 <alise> <cpressey> oh, that would be marvellous
19:35:07 <alise> <alise> what would?
19:35:07 <alise> <alise> "foo" being a symbol?
19:35:58 <cpressey> marvellous would be self-hosting a Pixley compiler in Pixley and having it output a huge sexp of (cons (quote ...)) which a postprocessor turns into a flat text file to feed to a compiler
19:36:12 <cpressey> marvellous in the gloriously gory sense
19:36:29 <alise> cpressey: unfortunately, i think Pixley is not expressive enough to write a compiler in
19:36:32 <alise> easily
19:36:38 <cpressey> not easily, no, i agree
19:37:03 <alise> have you read ichbins? wonderful.
19:37:06 <cpressey> maybe a simple compiler for some esolang
19:37:08 <cpressey> no i haven't
19:37:31 <alise> http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/icbins/icbins.tar.gz
19:37:33 <alise> rerm
19:37:34 <alise> erm
19:37:35 <alise> oops
19:37:37 <alise> http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/ichbins.tar.gz
19:37:57 <alise> Scheme-ish-subset (forget whether it's actually a proper subset of Scheme or not) to C compiler, very short.
19:38:06 <cpressey> googling it was not useful
19:38:17 <alise> see my links
19:38:42 -!- augur has joined.
19:38:52 <cpressey> yes, thx
19:38:56 <alise> well
19:38:57 <alise> see the latter
19:39:01 <alise> the former is bigger, and includes a compiler
19:39:04 <alise> erm
19:39:05 <cpressey> Darius Bacon, have I heard hat name before...?
19:39:06 <alise> and includes an interpreter
19:39:08 <alise> but not nearly as interesting
19:39:10 <alise> cpressey: probably
19:39:15 <alise> http://www.accesscom.com/~darius/
19:39:31 <alise> heh he called a wiki ikiwiki
19:39:35 <alise> wonder if it came before the more famous one
19:39:47 <alise> *called some wiki software
19:39:55 <alise> cpressey: well, probably = maybe
19:41:38 <cpressey> i think I have, and he's clearly done a lot, although i can't pinpoint what it woul dhave been in association with.
19:43:18 <alise> anyway, ichbins' language is expressive enoug hthat expressing its more complicated constructs is no problem
19:43:24 <alise> pixley, being just below it, seems much harder
19:43:32 <alise> as it's the fundamental attributes that make compiling it hard, not the extra features
19:43:59 <alise> cpressey: OTOH, a Pixley->C compiler in some other language is utterly uninteresting
19:44:18 <alise> >
19:44:18 <alise> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
19:44:18 <alise> I'll only ask another 100 times.
19:44:18 <alise> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
19:44:18 <alise> I'll only ask another 99 times.
19:44:19 <alise> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
19:44:21 <alise> I'll only ask another 98 times.
19:44:23 <alise> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
19:44:25 <alise> I'll only ask another 97 times.
19:44:27 <alise> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
19:44:29 <alise> -- the result of ^D-spamming Scheme 48
19:45:40 <cpressey> alise: there were 2 minutes left before the 48 hours were up, so they decided to have some fun
19:47:43 <cpressey> alise: that uninterestingness, plus picoLisp, plus the desire to write simple beautiful C programs, led me to think of pixley interpreter in C, only
19:48:02 <cpressey> i didn't even consider self-hosting a Pixley compiler
19:48:30 <alise> cpressey: ah
19:48:40 <alise> you're right, doing it picolisp-style would be fun
19:49:09 <cpressey> it would have to be picoLisp-style. well not *have* to, but, yeah.
19:49:24 <cpressey> but more than my brain can handle right no
19:49:26 <cpressey> *now
19:49:53 <alise> cpressey: problem is picolisp style usually involves a different language :)
19:50:16 <cpressey> not sure i follow you.
19:50:24 <ais523> alise: well, exiting after 100 consecutive EOFs makes more sense than asking every time
19:50:36 <ais523> because if stdin actually /is/ at EOF or closed, you probably want to exit rather than hang indefinitely
19:50:46 <alise> ais523: but it's the interactive REPL!
19:50:59 <ais523> you could be piping something into a REPL
19:51:07 <alise> cpressey: like the different nil structure
19:51:12 <alise> ais523: and get the 500 > > > > >s?
19:51:13 <alise> why?
19:51:13 <ais523> or, say, communicating with it via netcat or something, and have broken the connection
19:51:21 <alise> no
19:51:24 <alise> because it prompts you
19:51:28 <alise> ok, if you break the connection I guess
19:51:48 <ais523> what if your terminal ran out of disk space?
19:52:02 <ais523> (it would be hilarious if that actually happened for some terminal)
19:52:38 <alise> lol
19:53:09 <alise> grr, why the fuck isn't netcat in the arch repositories?
19:53:19 <alise> it makes one angry
19:53:29 <cpressey> alise: are you looking for it under the name 'nc'?
19:53:33 <alise> no
19:53:45 <alise> it has GNU netcat, patched netcat, OpenBSD netcat, IPv6 netcat
19:53:50 <alise> No original Hobbit netcat
19:53:51 <cpressey> oh gah
19:54:44 <alise> lol nc110.tgz is a tarbomb
19:54:54 <cpressey> ais523: or maybe your teletype ran out of paper!
19:56:21 <ais523> alise: I keep muddling tarbombs with zipbombs
19:56:47 <ais523> it's crazy that two words with such similar etymology have such different meanings
19:58:18 <alise> It is freely given away to the Internet community in the hope that
19:58:18 <alise> it will be useful, with no restrictions except giving credit where it is due.
19:58:18 <alise> No GPLs, Berkeley copyrights or any of that nonsense. The author assumes NO
19:58:18 <alise> responsibility for how anyone uses it.
19:58:23 * alise wonders how valid that is
19:58:28 <alise> (it's in Netcat's readme)
19:58:34 <alise> *netcat's
19:59:51 <ais523> very-free-content licences may have no effect at all in many countries
20:01:06 <ais523> meanwhile, it always amuses me when BSD advocates get angry with someone sublicensing a derivative of their code as GPL
20:01:06 <pikhq> alise: In the US, and probably in other common-law countries, it is perfectly valid.
20:01:39 <pikhq> Because when the wording is unclear, intent takes precedence, and the intent is 100% obvious.
20:01:41 <ais523> pikhq: the major argument against is based on contract law, rather than copyright law
20:01:53 <alise> ais523: what would you list the license as?
20:01:56 <alise> 'netcat license'?
20:02:09 <alise> (as opposed to "GPL", "MPL" etc.)
20:02:10 <ais523> contracts aren't enforceable at all unless they have benefits for both sides
20:02:13 <ais523> alise: "attribution"
20:02:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:02:25 <alise> ais523: that's not a precise identifier, though
20:02:29 <alise> (I can put "unknown")
20:02:29 <pikhq> ais523: Except that copyright licenses are not contracts.
20:02:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:02:37 <alise> <ais523> contracts aren't enforceable at all unless they have benefits for both sides ;; really?
20:02:40 <alise> how stupid
20:02:42 <ais523> if you need the precise licence, copy the whole thing
20:02:49 <ais523> alise: in the UK and US, at least
20:02:54 <pikhq> alise: Yes. Though "benefit" is somewhat vague.
20:02:58 <alise> The license under which the software is distributed. A licenses package has been created in [core] that stores common licenses in /usr/share/licenses/common, i.e. /usr/share/licenses/common/GPL. If a package is licensed under one of these licenses, the value should be set to the directory name, e.g. license=('GPL'). If the appropriate license is not included in the official licenses package, several things must be done:
20:02:59 <alise> The license file(s) should be included in: /usr/share/licenses/pkgname/, e.g. /usr/share/licenses/foobar/LICENSE.
20:02:59 <alise> If the source tarball does NOT contain the license details and the license is only displayed elsewhere, e.g. a website, then you need to copy the license to a file and include it.
20:03:00 <alise> Add custom to the license array. Optionally, you can replace custom with custom:name of license. Once a license is used in two or more packages in an official repository (including [community]), it becomes a part of the licenses package.
20:03:03 <alise> blurgh
20:03:49 <pikhq> For instance, trading $1 for your soul would be a perfectly valid contract if you could argue that a reasonable person aware of the full consequences would agree to it.
20:03:52 <ais523> alise: it seems from that that it's a license that's only used by one project, so you should just add it to /usr/share/licenses
20:04:03 <alise> ais523: i've just given up on making a package for now
20:04:07 <alise> ETOOMUCHWORK
20:04:11 <alise> ENOPERSONALGAIN
20:04:13 <pikhq> (contracts in common-law are invalid if the terms are completely crazy)
20:04:13 <ais523> pikhq: assuming that the law considers souls vaulable
20:04:15 <ais523> *valuable
20:04:17 <alise> (it's not like nc110 will ever be UPDATED)
20:04:41 <ais523> "unconsionable" contracts, ones that nobody sane would agree to, are rejected
20:04:51 <pikhq> ais523: Having any value at all? Well, that would depend on the opinion of the court.
20:04:53 <ais523> but that's a different rule from the one stating that contracts must have consideration for both sides
20:04:59 <ais523> pikhq: yes, as in any value at all
20:05:02 <alise> hmm, is there an opposite to -static?
20:05:04 <alise> -dynamic doesn't work
20:05:09 <pikhq> ais523: Yes.
20:05:10 <ais523> -no-static?
20:05:26 <alise> nope
20:05:31 <alise> oh wiat
20:05:32 <cpressey> < ais523> meanwhile, it always amuses me when BSD advocates get angry with someone sublicensing a derivative of their code as GPL
20:05:32 <alise> wait
20:05:34 <alise> I can just do STATIC=
20:05:35 <cpressey> that amuses me too
20:05:41 <ais523> there's a UK precedent somewhere that a crisp packet counts as sufficient value, especially as the contract in question was made in an attempt to encourage people to buy crisps
20:05:48 <alise> ais523: I don't mind people who do that, btw
20:05:52 <alise> although I won't incorporate their changes or anything
20:06:01 <ais523> that makes sense too
20:06:20 <alise> and I probably won't appreciate them recommending their version to people e.g. on any mailing lists
20:06:30 <alise> but then that applies to any BSD-licensed derivatives I dislike, too
20:06:40 <alise> (as in, recommending it on a regular basis)
20:06:43 <pikhq> ais523: The standard for "counting as consideration" in contracts here is the US. Not legal precedent or anything, just common practice if you really don't want much of anything in return for it.
20:06:47 <alise> (without significant productive contributions)
20:06:58 <ais523> pikhq: you mean USD, don't you?
20:07:04 <pikhq> ais523: Erm.
20:07:11 <pikhq> "Here in the US is $1"
20:07:14 <pikhq> That.
20:07:17 <alise> what about 1c?
20:07:17 <ais523> yep
20:07:22 <pikhq> alise: Probably count.
20:07:28 <pikhq> alise: $1 is just what's normally done.
20:07:40 <ais523> pikhq: there's a story where Feynman was offered one of those contracts and actually tried to claim the dollar
20:07:45 <pikhq> Yes, yes he did.
20:07:47 <ais523> apparently people rarely bothered
20:07:48 <cpressey> I have a somewhat weird license question
20:07:54 <pikhq> And he was perfectly in the right to do so.
20:07:57 <ais523> I agree
20:07:58 <alise> I have a brain tumour
20:08:04 <pikhq> I'd do the same.
20:08:08 <pikhq> (that can buy a soda!)
20:08:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:08:16 <ais523> alise: if that's true, that's bad and seek medical attention immediately
20:08:18 <ais523> I hope you're lying
20:08:33 <alise> ais523: I was trying to be vaguely witty wrt what cpressey said.
20:08:39 <alise> I think it would be hard for me to know that I have a brain tumour without an expert telling me so.
20:08:41 <ais523> hmm, ok
20:08:43 <cpressey> Is it possible to dual-license something as both public domain, and MITL'ed?
20:08:48 <pikhq> cpressey: No.
20:08:50 <alise> MITL?
20:08:55 <pikhq> Public domain is the lack of copyright.
20:08:59 <cpressey> MIT license, or BSD license
20:09:07 <ais523> cpressey: you can use something like the Creative Commons Public Domain Dedication
20:09:15 <pikhq> Though, it's arguable whether or not you can *actually do that* in the US.
20:09:23 <ais523> which is an attempt to create a version of making things public domain that actually works
20:09:24 <pikhq> And it's genuinely impossible in some other countries.
20:09:28 <cpressey> pikhq: Not even if I make two otherwise-identical versions, copyright one, place the other in PD?
20:09:29 <Gregor> I like jQuery's license. Disjunction of MIT and GPL. Clearly a license choice made by somebody that has no friggin' clue.
20:09:39 <pikhq> cpressey: Not dual license then.
20:09:42 <cpressey> Gregor: Oh yes, much more amusement
20:09:44 <pikhq> Just coincidentally identical works.
20:09:46 <ais523> Gregor: it makes sense if you think that the MIT license might not be binding for some reason
20:09:59 <cpressey> Gregor: "In other words... MIT?"
20:10:08 <alise> is statically linking against glibc ever a good idea?
20:10:17 <Gregor> alise: No. Not glibc. Other libcs, sure.
20:10:20 <alise> Gregor: xD
20:10:22 <alise> wrt jQuery
20:10:22 <pikhq> ais523: In other words... If you have no friggin' clue.
20:10:27 <alise> Gregor: yeah, it's just that nc tries to do it
20:10:40 <cpressey> pikhq: Maybe not technically a dual license, I agree. But the effect of one
20:10:43 <pikhq> alise: Glibc cannot be statically linked, basically.
20:10:49 <ais523> statically linking a libc is very common on certain platforms
20:10:50 <pikhq> You can try, but you get a binary that dlopens stuff.
20:10:51 <Gregor> Probably back when nc was written, it was a less-bad idea :P
20:11:07 <alise> ok, here's my guide to compiling Hobbit netcat on Linux: in netcat.c, after the inclusion of fcntl.h, add the line [[#include <resolv.h>]]. Then [[make linux STATIC=]].
20:11:07 <ais523> but I agree that glibc is probably not very good at that
20:11:08 <alise> Done.
20:11:35 <Gregor> And what's the point of this?
20:11:35 <alise> # BLOCK 9 freq:1949
20:11:36 <alise> # PRED: 8 [50.0%] (true,exec)
20:11:36 <alise> perror (&" "[0]);
20:11:36 <alise> goto <bb 11>;
20:11:36 <alise> # SUCC: 11 [100.0%] (fallthru,exec)
20:11:38 <alise> What the heck is this.
20:11:39 <Gregor> GNU netcat is whoot.
20:11:42 <alise> Gregor: no, it isn't
20:11:44 <cpressey> The source of my question was, I was wondering if there was a way to get around the fact that public domain isn't recognized in some countries. (in those countries, you can use the copyrighted version which grants you pretty-free copying rights instead.)
20:11:49 <alise> and even if I liked it,
20:11:55 <alise> I wouldn't use it, because I don't approve of stealing names like that
20:12:06 <alise> it's a blatant lifting of the name of another program
20:12:09 <Gregor> alise: Just like GNU cp stole UNIX cp's name? :P
20:12:11 <alise> like calling ReactOS "Windows"
20:12:12 <ais523> perror(&" "[0]) means perror(" ")
20:12:13 <cpressey> I feel like zzo38 even asking, tho
20:12:30 <alise> Gregor: "netcat" with the basic CLI interface and options is not nearly as obvious as "cp x y" copying x to y.
20:12:34 <cpressey> netcat<tm>
20:12:43 <Gregor> alise: But it's intended to be.
20:12:45 <alise> netcat is a relatively well-known brand in unixy circles
20:12:47 <alise> Gregor: no, "nc" is
20:12:52 <alise> if you read the readme
20:12:54 <alise> not "netcat"
20:12:55 <Gregor> Err, true.
20:12:58 <Gregor> Fair point.
20:13:18 <ais523> how many of the 676 two-lowercase-letter names have a reasonably standard meaning as commands on UNIX-like systems?
20:13:19 <alise> does anyone know what a file like netcat.c.193r.pro_and_epilogue is?
20:13:22 <alise> oh
20:13:22 <Gregor> Anyway, socat is better.
20:13:24 <Gregor> So who cares.
20:13:27 <alise> I think when I did -dynamic
20:13:31 <alise> one of them made it generate that crap
20:13:32 <alise> heh
20:14:04 <Mathnerd314> anyone in here doing an entry for http://www.codequarterly.com/code-challenges/markup/ ?
20:14:30 <alise> I'll probably use Hobbit netcat 1.10 until the second coming of Jesus^W^W^W^WIPv6 is implemented; then I'll use an IPv6 patch on it.
20:14:38 <alise> Mathnerd314: not afaik
20:14:55 <alise> Mathnerd314: that looks boring
20:15:12 <Mathnerd314> well, parsing using esolangs is probably hard
20:15:39 <ais523> alise: IPv6 is implemented basically everywhere nowadays
20:15:51 <ais523> even Windows (from Vista onwards) tries to use IPv6 where it can, and IPv4 only where it has to
20:15:53 <alise> ais523: yes, but nobody actually /uses/ it
20:15:58 <ais523> the major issue is that ISPs don't support it
20:15:59 <alise> and most ISPs don't support it
20:16:03 <alise> making it irrelevant
20:16:13 <alise> I suspect we'll NAT ourselves to death before IPv6 ever happens
20:16:18 <alise> and it could be very, very bad
20:16:30 <ais523> how long before we run out of NAT space?
20:16:44 <ais523> NAT effectively gives us two more octets on our addresses
20:16:45 <alise> ais523: doesn't it effectively make one IP contain the entire IPv4 space?
20:17:03 <ais523> and I'm not convinced that that's enough for the reasonable future
20:17:10 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:17:20 <alise> ais523: I bet we can make Super NAT.
20:17:32 <ais523> alise: well, the next step onwards will probably be some sort of "static NAT"
20:17:41 <alise> ais523: IMO the "best thing" would be for a technological country like Japan to institute some legally-required IPv6 migration plan.
20:17:50 <alise> Hopefully it'd trickle to the rest of the world.
20:18:09 <ais523> well, the entirety of Qatar is behind a NAT
20:18:10 <alise> I don't think the ISPs will do it on their own.
20:18:15 <ais523> just the one NAT for the whole country
20:18:30 <alise> ais523: yeah, but they barely matter on the internet :P
20:18:38 <ais523> presumably, if they get more than 65535 people trying to load web pages at once, they have to delay some of the requests
20:18:47 <ais523> alise: that could be the reason why...
20:19:07 <alise> ais523: the only African country I see represented on the internet is South Africa
20:19:21 <alise> and Hiato is the only South African I've actually talked to on the internet, as far as I'm aware
20:19:28 <alise> where is Hiato anyway? he's fun
20:19:48 <ais523> alise: it depends on which parts of the internet you go for
20:20:03 <alise> ais523: true
20:20:07 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:20:08 <ais523> several third-world African countries, the Internet works via mobile phones, and is used for trade and farming information
20:20:14 <alise> ha, farming information
20:20:32 <alise> ais523: I know that mobile phones are ludicrously popular in Moscow
20:20:36 <ais523> it's pretty important if the vast majority of your population are farmers
20:20:42 <alise> or at least, that's the impression I got from the single Moscow...ian I knew
20:20:51 <cpressey> Muscovite
20:20:55 <alise> (and that PCs aren't used nearly as much for the internet)
20:20:58 <alise> cpressey: Yes, but I'd already typed Moscwo!
20:21:00 <alise> *Moscow
20:21:01 <fizzie> Internet is especially important if the vast majority of your population are GOLD farmers.
20:21:03 <alise> (*Moskau)
20:21:21 <cpressey> muscovite sounds ickier
20:21:23 <pikhq> *Mosukau si
20:21:52 <alise> Moskau, fremd und geheimnisvoll. Türme aus rotem gold. Kalt wie das eis.
20:22:40 <pikhq> Tòitukò?
20:23:04 <alise> "Tòitukò?"?
20:23:08 <pikhq> German.
20:23:22 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQAKRw6mToA
20:23:34 <alise> (Perhaps more well-known for the mondegreen-subtitled English version.)
20:23:36 <pikhq> From German "Deutsch" and Japanese "語" (language)
20:25:42 <pikhq> (romanised by pikhq as "kò")
20:26:09 <alise> Romanised by normal people as?
20:26:13 <pikhq> "go"
20:26:18 <cpressey> Why, oh why, did the designers of irssi make the scroll wheel recall previous lines of text types, instead of scrolling the scrollback??
20:26:23 <cpressey> *typed
20:26:26 <pikhq> In Hepburn, Kunreishiki, and Nihonshiki.
20:26:30 <alise> cpressey: that's your terminal
20:26:34 <alise> there is no "scrollwheel" control character
20:26:37 <ais523> cpressey: in Konversation, it depends on where the mouse is
20:26:39 <alise> probably it is sending up and down
20:26:44 <alise> rather than pgup and pgdown
20:26:47 <alise> you may be able to configure this.
20:26:51 <ais523> but yes, many terminals translate the scrollwheel into direction keys
20:26:52 <cpressey> alise: in a normal terminal, it scrolls
20:27:03 <alise> cpressey: yes, but that's using the real terminal's text scrollback
20:27:06 <alise> which can't work when using curses
20:27:09 <cpressey> I mean, in a terminal of mine hat isn't runing irssi
20:27:12 <pikhq> alise: The ` diacritic is a voicing mark for the mora, BTW.
20:27:12 <alise> pikhq: what is it pronounced like in English-phonetics?
20:27:15 <alise> cpressey: yes.
20:27:16 <pikhq> alise: "go".
20:27:16 <alise> cpressey: irssi uses curses.
20:27:21 <cpressey> Oh, so shall I blame curses?
20:27:24 <ais523> cpressey: that terminal is on the secondary screen rather than the primary, though
20:27:25 <alise> cpressey: no.
20:27:26 <alise> cpressey: it's unavoidable
20:27:33 <pikhq> alise: Hepburn romanisation follows English phonetics. Always.
20:27:37 <ais523> so there is no in-terminal scrollback
20:27:41 <alise> pikhq: quite convenient. :P
20:27:44 <cpressey> alise: It could send PgUp and PgDown instead of Up and Down
20:27:47 <pikhq> That's by design.
20:27:56 <alise> cpressey: sure. that'd break other things
20:27:57 <ais523> what irrsi /could/ do would be to detect up-up-up faster than anyone can type, and convert it to pgup
20:28:05 <pikhq> Unfortunately, that means it *doesn't* follow Japanese perception of the phonemes at all.
20:28:12 * Sgeo_ just ate an orange
20:28:12 <cpressey> alise: Is there any way I can change it?
20:28:19 <alise> cpressey: maybe. what terminal?
20:28:27 <Sgeo_> <Gregor> Tell us all about your fruit-consumption!
20:28:27 <pikhq> Not bad for discussing Japanese words in English. Sucks for actually learning Japanese.
20:28:34 <pikhq> And yet, it's used for actually learning Japanese.
20:28:34 <cpressey> GNOME Terminal, apparently
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20:29:11 <pikhq> Nihonshiki and kunreishiki are both closer to Japanese perception of things.
20:29:20 <cpressey> might need to run a better terminal :)
20:29:47 <alise> cpressey: gnome-terminal is fine.
20:30:06 <pikhq> (the main difference between the two being that nihonshiki retains a couple of distinctions that are now only made in *written* Japanese, not spoken (for Standard Japanese; some dialects retain this distinction))
20:30:09 <alise> i don't know of any terminal which can actually configure it
20:30:16 <alise> Gah, I got to two dots on 66.
20:30:18 <alise> oklopol: how do you do 66 :|
20:30:55 <Sgeo_> No one cares either about my orangeness or noting how Gregor would note how no one cares?
20:31:26 <pikhq> Unfortunately, they all do things like marking geminate consonants by doubling the vowel, which can cause some ambiguity.
20:31:43 <pikhq> And fail horridly at unusual uses of kana.
20:32:40 <Vorpal> um, trying to find how to make gnuplot plot a simple data series. As opposed to a function. Not having much luck. Anyone happens to know? The docs are huge.
20:33:24 <alise> rtfm
20:33:32 <fizzie> If you actually do the xterm-alike mouse support, the scroll wheel will send button 4/5 events, but I doubt irssi does mouse support.
20:33:33 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo_: all you do is make me hungry
20:33:46 <Vorpal> alise, as I said, docs are huge and I hoped someone here knew. Thanks
20:33:49 <Sgeo_> Mathnerd314, wish you could transfer some of that hunger to me
20:33:57 <ais523> fizzie: and sideways mouse wheel is buttons 6 and 7
20:34:05 <Vorpal> and I'm in a bit of a hurry
20:34:06 * Sgeo_ needs to eat more
20:34:22 <alise> Sgeo_: you can eat while not hungry.
20:34:32 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo_: why do you need to eat more?
20:34:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: 'plot "datafile"' is the simplest thing you can do, but usually you need some options how you want it to be plotted.
20:34:38 <pikhq> (can't even romanise Okinawan with it. Bleeeeh)
20:34:45 <Sgeo_> Mathnerd314, I'm on the not particularly healthy side of thin
20:34:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah, need to find docs on data file format
20:34:55 <Vorpal> hm
20:35:16 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo_: better to waste away than to grow morbidly obese
20:35:18 <fizzie> You can have scanf-style format strings, but by default tab-separated columns of numbers work fine.
20:35:27 <alise> Mathnerd314: said like a true anorexic
20:35:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: What's your data file "originally" like?
20:36:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, a number of size\n<time command output>
20:36:15 <Sgeo_> I _think_ I've been termed "anorexic" but not "anorexia nervosa"
20:36:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, for plotting those values as a function of problem size
20:36:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, I doubt it can handle that
20:36:34 <alise> cpressey: A Pixley interpreter in asm would be fun.
20:36:36 * Sgeo_ is fully aware that he's thin. I am under no impression that I am overweight
20:36:40 <alise> Sgeo_: you're not anorexic
20:36:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Multiline formats are a bit iffy, I'm not sure it can really handle those at all.
20:36:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, so I need to write a simple script to convert it to some format.
20:36:55 * Sgeo_ vaguely wonders if the reverse is possible: Someone who's overweight, but thinks e's thin
20:36:56 <cpressey> alise: that might actually be nicer than C
20:37:01 <alise> anorexia is caused by a distortion of self-perception leading to one believing themselves to be fat and thus starving themselves as a result
20:37:11 <alise> you realise you're too thin, you don't not-eat to avoid being not thin; you're not anorexic.
20:37:17 <alise> cpressey: Yes, but I don't want to deal with x86/Linux asm, *urgh*.
20:37:19 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo_: me until about 2 weeks ago
20:37:20 <Hiant> Sgeo_: Self-delusion
20:37:34 <alise> Sgeo_: that's just called an idiot
20:37:52 <alise> hi Hiant, haven't seen you before
20:37:56 <cpressey> alise: i feel your pain
20:38:22 <Hiant> I am rather new here.
20:38:26 <alise> welcome
20:38:27 <alise> sacrifice goats
20:38:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, the default format is to process #-lines as comments, possibly ignore header-looking text with some horrible heuristic, and then for the rest split the lines using any whitespace as the separator; then you can do e.g. 'plot "datafile" using 1:4' to make it plot points where column 1 is X and column 4 is Y.
20:38:32 <alise> perform inscrutable rituals
20:38:34 <alise> muse about magick
20:38:39 <alise> cpressey: Ooooooooh, perhaps an x86 OS. ^_^
20:38:40 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_(symptom)
20:38:47 <alise> cpressey: har har
20:38:56 <alise> Sgeo_: you are not anorexic
20:39:09 <Hiant> Been there, done that. I am actually here because I have a thing for esolangs.
20:39:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I need three lines: real, user and sys
20:39:16 <Sgeo_> alise, you are not my doctor
20:39:34 <alise> Sgeo_: anorexia is fucking defined as thinking you're thin and not eating enough because of it
20:39:35 <alise> erm
20:39:37 <alise> Sgeo_: anorexia is fucking defined as thinking you're fat and not eating enough because of it
20:39:40 <Mathnerd314> alise: did you forget "talk about everything *besides* esoteric languages"
20:39:43 <Sgeo_> alise, that's anorexia nervosa
20:39:56 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:40:00 <alise> "anorexia" meaning anything else is only used by people who don't actually know what anorexia nervosa is
20:40:06 <alise> I don't care what your fucking GP said.
20:40:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, put it in a "<size>\t<real>\t<user>\t<sys>\n" format, and then plot "datafile" using 1:2 title "real", "datafile" using 1:3 title "user", "datafile" using 1:4 title "sys" -- possibly setting line styles there too.
20:40:51 <Taneb> Hello!
20:41:03 <Taneb> I'm kinda new to this
20:41:05 <fizzie> (That thing starting with "plot" is a single command, comma separates multiple lines.)
20:41:07 <Sgeo_> Remind me not to turn to alise for medical advice
20:41:20 <alise> Sgeo_: you're being moronic.
20:41:21 <cpressey> hi Taneb
20:41:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
20:41:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, can it average several values for same x value?
20:41:45 <Taneb> What would a Hackiki wiki do?
20:41:47 <Vorpal> otherwise I need the script to do that as well
20:42:12 <alise> Sgeo_: actually having known someone anorexic at the unit I find your compliance in the layman's dilution of the term rather disgusting.
20:42:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, it runs arbitrary code.
20:42:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: It might be easier to do it with a script; there are some smoothing options, but I'm not sure if they include windowed-average.
20:42:48 <Sgeo_> alise, I thought the layman's dilution was referring to "anorexia nervosa" as simply "anorexia"
20:42:49 <cpressey> Taneb: I suppose the idea is we would run interpreters for esolangs directly on it.
20:42:58 <alise> Sgeo_: absolutely not
20:43:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
20:43:03 <Taneb> Ah, thanks
20:43:05 <alise> Anorexia is anorexia nervosa
20:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC it basically goes like this: write executable. Run executable. Send over HTTP.
20:43:24 <alise> yes, the translation of anorexia from greek means reduced appetite
20:43:33 <alise> but if your doctor says "you're anorexic"
20:43:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't want to smooth the curve between the data points. Just average the 20 samples for problem size = 10000000 and so on
20:43:38 <alise> he means anorexia nervosa.
20:44:07 <alise> there is no condition "anorexia", the only sense in which it means something else is when referring to a reduced appetite which is NOT a diagnosis, and not something a doctor would tell you you have by using that word
20:44:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh. Well, even so. At least by default you'd just end up with multiple points with the same X value.
20:44:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah...
20:44:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, wait; it actually does have an option for that.
20:44:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? What is it?
20:45:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: If you add "unique" in the plot-spec, it will take the average Y-value if there are several points with the identical X-value.
20:45:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice!
20:45:23 <Sgeo_> hmm
20:45:31 <cpressey> alise: the annoying thing that i immediately hit for a Pixley interpreter is that it has to error somehow, e.g. (car foo)
20:45:40 <cpressey> i guess exit(1) would work
20:45:48 <Hiant> I actually came here for advice on an esoteric language I have been writing up.
20:45:52 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I haven't ever tried that option. Sometimes it's a bit picky about the ordering of things within the plot statement.)
20:46:10 <alise> cpressey: jmp aargh
20:46:14 <cpressey> Hiant: ask away. hopefully we all will give you contradictory and useless opinions!
20:46:14 <alise> aargh: hlt; jmp aargh
20:46:20 <cpressey> *we will all
20:46:26 <alise> (car 'x)? yep, that hangs the system
20:46:28 <Hiant> I put the specs up on esolang (http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/OTOH) and was looking for suggestions.
20:46:35 <alise> cpressey: making it as an OS is a bit stupid because pixley is utterly useless for causing any side-effects :)
20:46:42 <alise> but urgh i don't know the first thing about x86 asm
20:46:46 <alise> or any asm really but i could pick up others easily
20:46:50 <alise> x86 is a behemoth
20:46:57 <cpressey> alise: oh ha I didn't even realize you proposed *making* it an OS
20:46:58 <alise> Hiant: hey i saw that language yesterday
20:47:05 <alise> cpressey: well, not an OS, just a bare-metal REPL
20:47:14 <fizzie> ais523: For a while there before they started to add tilting buttons in everything, there was sort-of-a-convention that buttons 6/7 are "back" and "forward" in a browser. I guess they've now relocated back/fwd into 8/9 then.
20:47:15 <alise> cpressey: you could use real memory as the heap
20:47:16 <alise> :)
20:47:25 <alise> Hiant: DCC CHAT? why?
20:47:36 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:47:36 <alise> mistake?
20:47:36 <Hiant> sorry, mouse error
20:47:38 <alise> ok
20:47:57 <Hiant> Anyways, yes. I only added the specs recently.
20:47:57 <ais523> normally typos pick on me, seeing as I'm first in alphabetical order
20:48:03 <alise> well i fixed an orthographic error on your page!
20:48:16 <Hiant> What was it?
20:48:22 <ais523> fizzie: I haven't used a mouse with those buttons for a while, so I don't know what they map to
20:48:29 <alise> Hiant: "BrainFuck" -> "brainfuck"
20:48:29 -!- wareya has joined.
20:48:53 <alise> Brainfuck is acceptable at the start of a line, brainfuck after that, but never "BrainFuck" >:)
20:49:18 <Sgeo_> *****fuck
20:49:19 <ais523> it's a word that uses sentence case
20:49:25 * alise fixes a stupidity on [[brainfuck]] while e's at it
20:49:32 <ais523> Sgeo_: capital * at the start of a sentence, you still have to obey the rules of standard English language
20:49:35 <alise> "The brainfuck language is Turing-complete" -> "Brainfuck is Turing-complete"
20:49:43 <Hiant> Ah, that is a very good point. I should stop being so hasty when writing wikis.
20:50:00 <alise> ★****fuck
20:50:04 <alise> Hiant: it's very nitpicky, don't worry :-P
20:50:13 <alise> At least you didn't say "Brainf***"
20:50:25 <fizzie> ais523: On this particular mouse and Ubuntu combination, the back/forward thumb-buttons in the side nowadays do go to 8/9. (And at least Firefox interprets those as back/forward.)
20:50:26 <Sgeo_> Brianfuck
20:50:27 <alise> Hiant: the language is more interesting than the average person's first language by far
20:50:35 <Hiant> Thank you.
20:50:48 <alise> although it's not particularly well-specified; especially ,
20:50:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, why not capitalise Brainfuck?
20:50:50 <alise> what's "stack-like"?
20:50:57 <alise> well, actually, only , is badly-specified
20:51:06 <alise> although you also don't specify what the memory pointer is exactly
20:51:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because the name is brainfuck
20:51:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: for much the same reason as you don't capitalise ais523
20:51:38 * Phantom_Hoover thought it was like Lisp or Pythin
20:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> *Python
20:51:53 <alise> nope
20:52:04 <Hiant> Ah, that has to do with the brainfuck input. It only outputs one character at a time for every consecutive call after the first.
20:52:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: see the contents of http://aminet.net/dev/lang/brainfuck-2.lha
20:52:21 -!- Taneb has left (?).
20:52:27 <alise> Hiant: "Input one byte", then
20:52:36 <alise> (byte is probably what you want, not ASCII character)
20:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> LHA‽
20:52:40 <alise> (octet if you really want to be precise)
20:52:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: brainfuck is an Amiga problem
20:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> What kind of ungodly archive format is this?
20:52:52 <alise> *program
20:52:57 <alise> and I might just copy ais523's interrobang-filter if you don't stop abusing them
20:53:09 <Sgeo_> ?!
20:53:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: LHA, aka what every single damn thing on the Amiga uses
20:53:14 <ais523> gah, my filter apparently doesn't actually work
20:53:17 <alise> and also what a lot of Japan uses
20:53:27 <Hiant> I apologize, I am rather bad at using the proper compsci terms.
20:53:35 <alise> Hiant: it's not very compsci :)
20:53:37 <alise> ascii character is fine
20:53:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what's wrong with interrobangs??
20:53:43 <alise> just, technically, it means you can't input a byte greater than 127
20:53:45 <alise> which is probably not what you want
20:53:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you abuse them in a really irritating way
20:53:53 <ais523> overpunctuating is really annoying
20:54:07 <ais523> and an interrobang is effectively inherently overpunctuating
20:54:11 <alise> even ?! is less irritating than the interrobang
20:54:13 * Sgeo_ wonders if ais523 finds this punctuation acceptable.
20:54:17 <alise> the interrobang /looks/ irritating
20:54:17 <fizzie> ⁑****fuck would be another way to do "uppercase *", but, well.
20:54:52 <Hiant> Anyways, I was hoping for suggestions. Optimization, useless obscuration, ect.
20:54:54 <alise> "As the head of an advertising agency, Speckter believed that advertisements would look better if copywriters conveyed surprised rhetorical questions using a single mark."
20:55:02 -!- augur has joined.
20:55:02 <alise> so the interrobang is actually only for rhetorical qusetions
20:55:10 <alise> Hiant: i'll look at the actual language now :P
20:55:14 <ais523> for /surprised/ rhetorical questions
20:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I shall try to use a less offensive punctuation mark, then.
20:55:39 <alise> Hiant: "9/4/10" this is ambiguous, I suggest using 2010-04-09 or 09-04 depending on which you eman
20:55:40 <alise> *mean
20:55:47 <Sgeo_> Everyone really hates PSOX‽
20:55:51 <alise> I swear I'll look at the language now!
20:55:55 <cpressey> fizzie: ... :)
20:56:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, argh, do you know how you get boxes on the lines for the data points?
20:56:15 <Sgeo_> ^^surprised rhetorical enough?
20:56:17 <Vorpal> "set style data linespoints" seemed relevant, but it doesn't
20:56:44 <alise> Hiant: you might want to mention what function Examples -> Mathematical Functions calculates.
20:56:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Try putting "with linespoints" after the "using 1:2" part in the plot command.
20:56:54 * Vorpal tries
20:56:58 <alise> This program functions, but is too large to be comfortably posted here.
20:56:59 <alise> how long is it?
20:57:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, no luck
20:57:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, the smoothing stuff seems to work though
20:57:32 <Hiant> alise: Sorry, hasty editing destroyed the lower half of the page.
20:57:42 <ais523> alise: 2010-09-04 seems more likely given the current date
20:57:49 <alise> ais523: indeed, i wasn't thinking too hard
20:57:53 <ais523> Hiant: you can recover previous versions from the history
20:57:57 <alise> Hiant: we don't really mind how long pages are; just put a linebreak after every, say, 80 characters
20:58:00 <alise> of the program
20:58:07 <Sgeo_> I have decided that I no longer love Factor
20:58:11 <Sgeo_> OTOH is my new love
20:58:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Hmm, did it just not do anything, or actually complain? (Also, it might be a side effect of the "unique" flag, the doc for "plot unique" says "The resulting points are then connected by straight line segments.")
20:58:34 <Hiant> Sgeo_: That's quite flattering, why?
20:58:43 <Sgeo_> Hiant, inside joke kindof
20:58:44 <alise> Hiant: he's probably kidding
20:58:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, it did nothing
20:59:08 <alise> Hiant: it's a Sgeo-meme, which is a word meaning "something that only one person thinks is a hilarious meme"
20:59:10 <ais523> Hiant: let's just say, he was in love with Smalltalk last time I was in here
20:59:16 <Vorpal> ah yes, removing unique changes it...
20:59:19 <Vorpal> sigh
20:59:20 <alise> arguably, Sgeo-meme is a rank-2 Sgeo-memeoid
20:59:25 <alise> in that only me and ais523 find it amusing
20:59:28 <alise> *"Sgeo-meme" itself
20:59:37 <Phantom_Hoover> There are rank 1 Sgeo-memeoids?
20:59:39 <Hiant> I see...
21:00:11 <alise> a rank-1 Sgeo-memoid is a Sgeo-meme
21:00:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, it seems to be an architectural limitation. If you use a smoothing option, it handles the plotting as if it were a function, and a function can't be plotted with "linespoints" (because it has no particular points; it's just sampled at suitable intervals).
21:00:19 <Sgeo_> I'm definitely struggling more with Factoid than with Smalltalk
21:00:23 <Sgeo_> *Factor
21:00:24 <alise> Hiant: we're usually this crazy
21:00:24 <ais523> alise: some of the Sgeo-memeoids have ascended by now, though
21:00:27 <alise> Sgeo_: "Factoid"
21:00:31 <alise> ais523: such as? PSOX?
21:00:42 <ais523> alise: I was about to not mention that
21:00:47 <alise> PSOX was a Sgeo-meme; "making fun of the Sgeo-meme that is PSOX" is a meme
21:00:49 <ais523> in such a way that everyone knew what I meant anyway
21:00:51 <alise> (by imitating it)
21:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, which Sgeo-memeoids are rank 1?
21:00:56 <Hiant> alise: I can believe that.
21:00:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: all Sgeo-memes
21:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Examples?
21:01:07 <alise> such as "<Sgeo> X is my new love"
21:01:11 <alise> as has just been discussed
21:01:18 <cpressey> hey, I just had an idea for a *good* use for the interrobang: in a message-passing language, ! could send a message asynchronously, ? could wait for a message, and ‽ could combine them for synchronous communication
21:01:30 <alise> A rank 0 Sgeo-memeoid is also known as "unfunny"
21:01:47 <ais523> not necessarily
21:01:49 <Sgeo_> Another Sgeo-meme: Saying that some random mentioned thing should be an esolang
21:01:51 <ais523> that would just imply a meme that nobody used
21:01:55 <ais523> or even knew about
21:02:06 <cpressey> The Sgeo-meme meme is pretty rank, all right
21:02:08 <ais523> I suspect there's at least one undiscovered meme that's really funy
21:02:10 <ais523> *funny
21:02:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
21:02:20 * Phantom_Hoover still wants to do a minimalist logic language
21:02:34 <alise> ais523: well, no, because it's not a meme yet
21:02:39 <alise> at all
21:02:41 <alise> if nobody's thought of it
21:02:43 * Sgeo_ sees $$$ in all the recognition
21:02:47 <Hiant> alise: Anyways, is a to-ruby compiler acceptable or no?
21:02:47 <lament> Sgeo-memes should be an esolang
21:02:53 <ais523> alise: well, it's a meme for exactly 0 people, then
21:02:55 <alise> Hiant: i guess
21:02:57 <ais523> thus a rank-0 Sgeo-memoid
21:03:02 <alise> Hiant: put it on sprunge.us
21:03:09 <alise> and link it in an external links section
21:03:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: I can't immediately think of a workaround; maybe just average those points in your format-converting script (or a second step). You could plot as lines, and then plot untitled points on top of it, but the points would need the averaged values from somewhere.
21:03:12 <alise> but do include the hello world program
21:03:20 <alise> ais523: not everything is a meme by default!
21:03:22 <Hiant> will do.
21:03:38 -!- benuphoenix has joined.
21:03:52 <ais523> alise: but undiscovered memes are, by definition
21:04:00 <alise> ais523: there are none
21:04:04 <alise> because those aren't memes
21:04:06 * Sgeo_ blinks
21:04:07 <alise> *they
21:04:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed I think I will average them in advance
21:04:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Implement Belabour
21:05:02 <Sgeo_> Hi benuphoenix
21:05:35 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:05:40 <Sgeo_> FWIW, Sgeo-memes is now a rank 3 or greater Sgeo-memoid
21:05:54 <cpressey> lament: Its instructions should consist entirely of identifying things which should be esolangs
21:06:05 <alise> cpressey: I'm wondering about Pixley in asm now...
21:06:16 <alise> Sgeo_: why? who else finds it amusing? you?
21:06:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, does awk do floats?
21:06:22 <Sgeo_> alise, yes
21:06:24 <Vorpal> I forgot
21:06:27 <alise> it doesn't count unless you regularly mention it, though
21:06:31 <alise> or at least, as regularly as is feasible
21:06:34 <alise> from the context
21:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, belabour
21:06:40 <Sgeo_> I've never heard it mentioned before, tbh
21:06:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I seem to recall it does, by default.
21:06:53 <Vorpal> right
21:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
21:06:57 <Sgeo_> Shall I mention it as regularly as I used to mention PSOX?
21:07:00 <alise> Sgeo_: NO
21:07:00 <fizzie> `run echo 1 | awk '{print $1/2;}'
21:07:03 -!- SimonRC has joined.
21:07:11 <HackEgo> 0.5
21:07:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://catseye.tc/cpressey/louie.html#Belabour
21:07:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, then this should be trivial. This is a perfect job for awk
21:07:36 <alise> `run wget http://github.com/darius/awklisp/blob/master/awklisp
21:07:38 <HackEgo> No output.
21:07:46 <alise> `run curl 2>&1
21:07:48 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: curl: command not found
21:07:51 <alise> `cat http://github.com/darius/awklisp/blob/master/awklisp
21:07:53 <HackEgo> No output.
21:07:55 <alise> grr
21:07:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, it will be when I remember the array syntax
21:07:59 <alise> how do you get files on to HackEgo?
21:08:11 <Vorpal> `wget
21:08:13 <HackEgo> wget: missing URL \ Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... \ \ Try `wget --help' for more options.
21:08:17 <Vorpal> alise, try that :P
21:08:30 <Vorpal> or
21:08:33 <Vorpal> `help
21:08:35 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:08:39 <Vorpal> has `fetch iirc
21:08:41 <alise> `ls awklisp
21:08:42 <HackEgo> No output.
21:08:48 <alise> `fetch http://github.com/darius/awklisp/blob/master/awklisp
21:08:50 <HackEgo> 2010-09-06 20:08:27 URL:http://github.com/darius/awklisp/blob/master/awklisp [86401/86401] -> "awklisp" [1]
21:08:52 <alise> Vorpal: wget didn't work before
21:08:57 <Vorpal> alise, well okay
21:09:29 <alise> `run echo '(+ 2 2)' | awk awklisp
21:09:31 <HackEgo> No output.
21:09:35 <alise> `run echo '(display (+ 2 2))' | awk awklisp
21:09:37 <HackEgo> No output.
21:09:44 <alise> `run echo '(write (+ 2 2))' | awk awklisp
21:09:46 <HackEgo> No output.
21:09:48 <alise> grr
21:09:49 <alise> `run echo '(write (+ 2 2))' | awk awklisp 2>&1
21:09:51 <HackEgo> No output.
21:10:02 <alise> `run awk --version 2>&1
21:10:03 <cpressey> whhh you can install stuff on HackEgo? that's pretty cool
21:10:04 <HackEgo> awk: not an option: --version
21:10:11 <alise> this is nawk, isn't it?
21:10:13 <alise> `run gawk
21:10:15 <HackEgo> No output.
21:10:16 <fizzie> Suddenly I was tempted to `fetch a command-line pastebin client. Just think. you could paste stuff to IRC by sending.. an IRC message.. on-channel.. uh, never mind.
21:10:26 <alise> i guess darius bacon wouldn't write gnu-specific code. probably
21:10:47 <alise> fizzie: But you could give it a URL with a lot of text, and it'd put it on a pastebin for you!
21:11:05 <alise> `run awk awklisp
21:11:07 <HackEgo> No output.
21:11:23 <alise> `run echo '(write T)' | awk awklisp
21:11:25 <benuphoenix> Sgeo: Hi
21:11:25 <HackEgo> No output.
21:11:41 <alise> grr
21:11:51 <alise> wait
21:11:53 <alise> awklisp is html
21:11:54 <alise> lol
21:11:55 <alise> `rm awklisp
21:11:56 <HackEgo> No output.
21:12:01 <alise> `fetch http://github.com/darius/awklisp/raw/master/awklisp
21:12:06 <HackEgo> 2010-09-06 20:11:43 URL:http://github.com/darius/awklisp/raw/master/awklisp [15101/15101] -> "awklisp" [1]
21:12:07 <alise> `run echo '(write (+ 2 2))' | awk awklisp
21:12:17 <alise> :slowpoke:
21:12:35 <HackEgo> No output.
21:12:55 <alise> grr, it outputs nothing here too
21:13:08 <alise>             print_expr(eval(expr))
21:13:17 <cpressey> a lisp interpreter in awk
21:13:24 <cpressey> how did this come about?
21:13:32 <fizzie> `run echo '(write T)' | ./awklisp 2>&1
21:13:34 <HackEgo> ERROR: Unbound variable: T
21:13:41 <fizzie> (I chmod +x'd awklisp in a query for that.)
21:13:49 <alise> `run echo "(write 't)" | ./awklisp 2>&1
21:13:50 <HackEgo> t nil
21:13:52 <alise> cpressey: Darius Bacon
21:14:01 <alise> `run echo "(* 2 2 2)" | ./awklisp 2>&1
21:14:02 <HackEgo> ERROR: Wrong number of arguments to
21:14:07 <alise> `run echo "(* 2 2)" | ./awklisp 2>&1
21:14:08 <HackEgo> 4
21:14:09 <cpressey> i meant, was there something that precipitated teaching it to HackEgo?
21:14:16 <alise> cpressey: why not?
21:14:24 <cpressey> ok then! carry on.
21:14:24 <Sgeo_> Why doesn't HackEgo understand Factor?
21:14:31 <alise> cpressey: it has its own gc, too
21:14:34 <alise> `run echo "(cons 1 2)" | ./awklisp 2>&1
21:14:35 <HackEgo> (1 . 2)
21:14:43 <fizzie> Sgeo_: Just stick an awkFactor in there, then it does.
21:14:54 <alise> `arch
21:14:55 <HackEgo> x86_64
21:14:58 <cpressey> awk. the implementation language of champions.
21:15:06 <alise> `fetch http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:15:21 <Sgeo_> I guess I should learn about awk
21:15:28 <alise> awk is cool
21:15:29 <cpressey> core factor isn't too complex, is it?
21:15:37 <alise> cpressey: this thing runs python iirc
21:15:37 <cpressey> awk is craziness
21:15:39 <alise> it should be fine
21:15:49 <alise> cpressey: why's it crazy?
21:15:57 <Sgeo_> Does "core factor" even exist as such?
21:16:07 <Sgeo_> The implementation and the language are so intertwined...
21:16:12 * alise twiddles thumbs wrt fetch
21:16:16 <alise> Sgeo_: no they're not (really)
21:16:28 <cpressey> awk is a ptreoxgtrparmomcicnegssor!
21:16:29 <alise> the language just has no spec outside the documentation, which is comprehensive and happens to include code
21:16:34 <cpressey> language
21:16:41 <alise> cpressey: there's an nroff -man/-ms clone in awk, and an assembler
21:16:44 <alise> blame Henry Spencer
21:17:06 <fizzie> `run echo `python --version 2>&1` -- `perl --version | head -n 2 | cut -c -20`
21:17:08 <HackEgo> Python 2.5.5 -- This is perl, v5.10.
21:17:20 <alise> Python 2.55 = Perl 5.10.
21:17:32 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
21:17:38 <fizzie> So one Perl is almost twice a Python.
21:17:44 <cpressey> "This is perl. Who are YOU?"
21:18:00 <Sgeo_> I'm pretty sure there's command-line Factor
21:18:12 <Sgeo_> So it can't be that difficult to just install it
21:18:25 <alise> Sgeo_: there is
21:18:26 <alise> I am installing it
21:18:32 <alise> HackEgo is fetching it, or at least should be
21:18:34 <Sgeo_> Awesome!
21:18:35 <alise> `ls
21:18:37 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20027 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:18:44 <alise> I dunno if it's done yet, though
21:18:47 <alise> it didn't say so
21:18:50 <cpressey> I could be installing my esoterps on HackEgo, then, since most of 'em are perl and python and haskell
21:18:52 <alise> `run ls -l factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:18:54 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 10485760 Sep 6 20:18 factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:18:58 <Sgeo_> cpressey, do so!
21:18:58 <alise> `run ls -l factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:19:00 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 10485760 Sep 6 20:18 factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:19:01 <Phantom_Hoover> `cat babies
21:19:03 <HackEgo> No output.
21:19:04 <alise> `run tar xf factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:19:07 <cpressey> Sgeo_: maybe later
21:19:08 <Sgeo_> </actually-thinking-about-something-other-than-himself>
21:19:10 <alise> `run ls
21:19:10 <Phantom_Hoover> `ls babies
21:19:15 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20252 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:19:23 <HackEgo> No output.
21:19:24 <HackEgo> babies.db
21:19:25 <Phantom_Hoover> `run ls babies
21:19:26 * alise waits for it to unpack
21:19:27 <alise> `run ls
21:19:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: stop it
21:19:30 <alise> you're clogging it up
21:19:31 <HackEgo> babies.db
21:19:33 <alise> read the filesystem instead
21:19:36 <alise> `help
21:19:38 <fizzie> 10485760 is suspiciously ten-megabytey.
21:19:39 <alise> the fshg link
21:19:39 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:19:44 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20360 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:19:51 <alise> fizzie: ah, true.
21:19:58 <alise> `run rm factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:20:00 <HackEgo> No output.
21:20:00 <alise> `ls
21:20:02 <Sgeo_> rm?
21:20:04 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20520 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:20:06 <Sgeo_> Oh
21:20:11 <alise> `run rm factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:20:13 <HackEgo> No output.
21:20:13 <Sgeo_> Was about to scream at you
21:20:14 <alise> `ls
21:20:18 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20648 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:20:21 <alise> Sgeo_: you have issues
21:20:28 <alise> `run wget http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz 2>&1
21:20:31 <HackEgo> --2010-09-06 20:20:08-- http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ Connecting to connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2010-09-06 20:20:08 ERROR 403: Forbidden. \
21:20:42 <alise> o.X
21:20:52 <alise> fizzie: how do you set the user agent in wget; do you know?
21:20:54 <Sgeo_> Maybe we should mention this in #concatenative ?
21:21:00 <fizzie> alise: -U foo, IIRC.
21:21:07 <Sgeo_> Also, why was it connecting to ?
21:21:08 <alise> `run wget -U mogul http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz 2>&1
21:21:10 <HackEgo> --2010-09-06 20:20:47-- http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ Connecting to connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2010-09-06 20:20:47 ERROR 403: Forbidden. \
21:21:12 <alise> oh
21:21:16 <alise> it only lets you talk to the outside with fetch
21:21:23 <alise> `fetch http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:21:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, mm this works nicely
21:21:41 <alise> now we wait.
21:21:54 <Sgeo_> Yay! I'm helpful!
21:21:55 <alise> cpressey: what's the CPU arch you like?
21:21:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, now just to figure out how to set output to svg to file
21:22:02 <Vorpal> rather than screen on window
21:22:06 <Vorpal> ought to be trivial
21:22:07 <alise> Sgeo_: but you put a space before your ?, which angers me. :|
21:22:12 <alise> cpressey: 6805?
21:22:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: "set term svg" followed by "set output "filename"".
21:22:27 <Sgeo_> alise, bubut.. I put spaces after URIs, why not IP addresses?
21:22:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, yay svg terminal
21:22:36 <Phantom_Hoover> csh?
21:22:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, that sooo must be done
21:22:41 <alise> Sgeo_: no reason to
21:22:44 <alise> just makes you french
21:22:48 <alise> Vorpal: no it doesn't have to be.
21:22:54 <Vorpal> "Options are 'size 600,480 fixed fname 'Arial' fsize 12 butt solid '" <-- nasty defaults
21:22:59 <Sgeo_> When I was a kid, I randomly wanted to learn French
21:23:03 <Vorpal> alise, why?
21:23:08 <Sgeo_> Had a book, _French for Dummies_
21:23:15 <alise> Vorpal: it's uninteresting
21:23:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or the other way around. There was an official reason why you were supposed to use "set term" either before or after "set output", but I can't rememer which way it was. I *think* it was "set term" first, then "set output" so that it knows to set the output file to binary mode on systems where it makes a difference.
21:23:22 <alise> butt solid
21:23:27 <Vorpal> alise, that's your opinion yes
21:23:57 <alise> `run git
21:23:59 <HackEgo> No output.
21:24:19 <alise> `run git 2>&1
21:24:21 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: git: command not found
21:24:30 <alise> `help
21:24:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:24:45 <alise> ok, it's fetched
21:24:50 <alise> `run tar xf factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:24:55 <alise> `ls
21:24:55 <HackEgo> No output.
21:24:59 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.21125 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:25:03 <alise> `run tar xf factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz 2>&1
21:25:07 <alise> oh, i guess it has a file size limit?
21:25:08 <HackEgo> /bin/tar: factor/factor.image: Wrote only 1024 of 10240 bytes \ \ gzip: stdin: unexpected end of file \ /bin/tar: Unexpected EOF in archive \ /bin/tar: factor: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now
21:25:15 <alise> seems so.
21:25:19 <ais523> `run apt-get git-core 2>&1
21:25:21 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - FileExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Invalid operation git-core
21:25:25 <alise> ais523: fail
21:25:28 <ais523> `run apt-get install git-core 2>&1
21:25:30 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - FileExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?
21:25:33 <Sgeo_> FileExists: No such file or directory
21:25:34 <alise> ais523: download would work, but not install
21:25:41 * Sgeo_ fails to comprehend
21:25:41 <alise> ais523: can you download the .deb from apt-get?
21:25:45 <ais523> hmm, I was wondering if /usr was writable, given that it was in a sandbox anyway
21:25:46 <alise> wouldn't work anyway
21:25:48 <alise> no repository
21:25:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:25:57 * alise gets the .git deb
21:26:03 <alise> erm
21:26:04 <alise> git .deb
21:26:13 <alise> ais523: it's git now, btw
21:26:16 <ais523> `run apt-get -d install git-core 2>&1
21:26:18 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - FileExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?
21:26:28 <ais523> need to be root even to just grab the package, for some reason
21:26:30 <alise> `fetch http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/git/git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb
21:26:31 <ais523> that's stupid
21:26:32 <alise> ais523: no
21:26:36 <alise> ais523: its network is retarded anyway
21:26:39 <alise> retarded as in ...
21:26:41 <alise> the other meaning
21:26:41 <HackEgo> 2010-09-06 20:26:19 URL:http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/git/git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb [6270854/6270854] -> "git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb" [1]
21:26:43 <alise> purposefully
21:26:46 <alise>
21:26:47 <alise> `ls
21:26:49 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz \ git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.21421 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:26:52 <alise> `rm factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:26:54 <HackEgo> No output.
21:26:56 <fizzie> ais523: Also it's missing all the /etc/apt/ and /var/lib/dpkg files, it looks like.
21:26:59 <alise> ais523: can you dpkg -i to a local directory?
21:27:08 <Sgeo_> Gregor, get in here
21:27:19 <Gregor> Quarp?
21:27:20 <Sgeo_> Make the outside not be all O, we're
21:27:26 <alise> uhh
21:27:28 <alise> that's intentional.
21:27:31 <alise> doing otherwise would be suicide
21:27:37 <Vorpal> alise, just compile the binaries and upload then as tar.gz or such?
21:27:39 <Vorpal> probably easier
21:27:43 <alise> Gregor: I'm just gonna install git to a local directory so I can fetch more files than your limited `fetch, kay
21:27:47 <alise> (the tarball is bigger)
21:27:48 <cpressey> varmince! dere ruddig ewey. git deb!
21:27:56 <Vorpal> extracting them locally preparing an archive
21:27:59 <Vorpal> then uploading that
21:27:59 <alise> Vorpal: .deb /is/ an ... ar, I think
21:28:00 <Vorpal> alise, ^
21:28:04 <alise> (ais523?)
21:28:04 <Gregor> alise: You won't be able to fetch them, the network access is restricted.
21:28:07 <Vorpal> alise, no it is tar based I think
21:28:09 <alise> Gregor: oh, of course
21:28:10 <fizzie> alise: If you don't need the special installation scripts, you can "dpkg-deb -x file.deb dir/" to extract the files from it.
21:28:10 <alise> Gregor: xD
21:28:16 <alise> never mind
21:28:17 <alise> `ls
21:28:19 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.21516 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:28:20 <Gregor> The `fetch command is all you get.
21:28:22 <ais523> alise: hmm, OK
21:28:23 <alise> Gregor: can you manually fetch a biggish file?
21:28:29 <alise> to the FS
21:28:31 <alise> not that big
21:28:38 <Gregor> alise: If "biggish" is under 10MB, sure.
21:28:38 <alise> `rm git_1.7.1-1.1_amd64.deb
21:28:40 <HackEgo> No output.
21:28:41 <cpressey> alise: 6502!
21:28:44 <alise> Gregor: It's not quite under 10 MB, I think.
21:28:57 <Gregor> alise: 10MB is the absolute filesize limit right now.
21:28:57 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:28:59 <alise> Gregor: http://downloads.factorcode.org/linux-x86-64/factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.gz
21:29:01 <fizzie> cpressey: What have you against the 6510! (Okay, okay, he said "arch".)
21:29:01 <Gregor> I could increase that if you give me a reason :P
21:29:03 <alise> You have access to the repo, though.
21:29:07 <cpressey> 6502: essentially all Commodore computers, Atari 2600, ...
21:29:09 <alise> Gregor: because otherwise Sgeo will hyperventilate
21:29:20 <cpressey> fizzie: i don't distinguish usually. i'm naughty that way
21:29:22 <fizzie> alise: Just go and split the file to pieces.
21:29:55 <Gregor> alise: The filesize limit is a ulimit, even if I put a file in that's bigger, you won't be able to use it.
21:29:58 <Sgeo_> 10MB is the filesize limit for downloaded files, or any files?
21:30:01 <Sgeo_> Ah
21:30:01 <alise> Gregor: XD
21:30:03 <alise> Gregor: Okay.
21:30:07 <Gregor> Well, maybe, depends on how you use it I suppose.
21:30:08 <alise> fizzie: Can tar do multi-part things?
21:30:13 <alise> Gregor: would this work:
21:30:16 <alise> cat a b c d | foo
21:30:18 <alise> where a+b+c+d > 10 MB
21:30:20 <Gregor> Sure
21:30:26 <Gregor> No file is made that's too big there.
21:30:26 <alise> okay, who knows dd?
21:30:31 <fizzie> cpressey: There's a 8502 in my C128; I'm not quite sure why such a drastic change in the number when it's just a 6510 with some pins and (IIRC) relocatable "zero"page.
21:31:06 <Vorpal> alise, everyone knows dd...
21:31:12 <fizzie> alise: There's the tool called "split" that can (gasp!) split files. (Though it has a crummy syntax and strange output file names.)
21:31:13 <alise> I know the basics.
21:31:20 <Sgeo_> Even I know the basics
21:31:21 <Sgeo_> >.>
21:31:22 <alise> fizzie: oh, indeed
21:31:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, crummy is an understatement
21:31:39 <alise> Length: 26717387 (25M) [application/x-tar]
21:31:40 <alise> Hum de dum.
21:31:45 <alise> I wonder if bzipping it would help.
21:31:51 * alise tries, after it's downloaded
21:32:02 <Vorpal> alise, as he said you won't be able to use the file inside there
21:32:12 <Vorpal> file size (blocks, -f) unlimited
21:32:15 <Vorpal> I presume he set that
21:32:17 <Vorpal> to 10 MB
21:32:22 * Sgeo_ wonders how much stuff in there is unneeded
21:32:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can't create big files, but you can concatenate things and pipe to tar.
21:32:24 <Vorpal> `run ulimit -f
21:32:26 <Sgeo_> We don't really need slides
21:32:27 <HackEgo> 10240
21:32:28 <alise> Vorpal: Reading comprehension, ooh ooh fail!
21:32:29 <Vorpal> see
21:32:32 <alise> Reading comprehension, youuuu faiil!
21:32:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah hm
21:32:37 <alise> F for Fail.
21:32:58 <fizzie> Of course if the tarball has any too-big files in it, then it's more of a problem.
21:33:02 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:33:12 <alise> `run xz 2>&1
21:33:14 <HackEgo> 7zXZ
21:33:18 <alise> fizzie: I don't think factor.image is that big.
21:33:20 <Vorpal> what
21:33:24 <alise> lol @ that
21:33:25 <cpressey> yoiks
21:33:26 -!- Hiant has joined.
21:33:34 <alise> it's not a terminal
21:33:38 <Vorpal> alise, oh right
21:33:39 <alise> so xz happily spews the compressed data
21:33:46 <Vorpal> alise, why doesn't it emulate a terminal?
21:33:51 <Vorpal> hm
21:34:04 <alise> because it's not a terminal in any sense
21:34:16 <alise> [ehird@dinky tmp]$ xz -9 factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar
21:34:19 <Vorpal> hm
21:34:20 * alise 's stupid filter kicks in
21:34:24 * alise cancel
21:34:24 <Vorpal> alise, you could split it
21:34:28 <alise> I am.
21:34:32 <alise> But I'm making things easier first.
21:34:35 <Vorpal> alise, xz -9 -e
21:34:41 <fizzie> gzip: compressed data not written to a terminal. Use -f to force compression.
21:34:41 <fizzie> bzip2: I won't write compressed data to a terminal.
21:34:41 <fizzie> xz: Compressed data not written to a terminal unless `--force' is used.
21:34:47 <fizzie> Heh, they all say the same thing a bit differently.
21:34:48 <Hiant> alise: Well, "Hello World!" is up. I feel like a cheater, but a *ugly* working version is now up.
21:35:04 <fizzie> bzip2's the only one that tries to pretend it's a person, though.
21:35:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
21:35:37 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:35:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about compress?
21:35:43 <fizzie> Which app was the "cowardly refusing to create an empty archive" one? Tar?
21:35:48 <Vorpal> compress: compressed data not written to a terminal. Use -f to force compression.
21:35:49 <Vorpal> ah
21:35:52 <Vorpal> that is what compress does
21:35:56 <Vorpal> wait, that looks like gzip?
21:35:59 <cpressey> For extra creepy, bzip2 should refer to itself in the 3rd person. "Write compressed data to a terminal? Naw, bzip2's not down with that."
21:35:59 <fizzie> lzma says the same thing as gzip, too.
21:36:04 <Vorpal> /bin/compress: symbolic link to `gzip'
21:36:06 <Vorpal> oh right
21:36:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, no it doesn't
21:36:18 <Vorpal> lzma: Compressed data cannot be written to a terminal
21:36:29 <Vorpal> lzma that is not the same as gzip
21:36:31 <Sgeo_> Why are we writing compressed data to a terminal?
21:36:52 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, read scrollback, starting with line "<alise> `run xz 2>&1"
21:36:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, *my* lzma says the same thing as gzip.
21:36:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh
21:37:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also, on this system: http://p.zem.fi/compress
21:37:38 <alise> fizzie: Why does http://p.zem.fi/test redirect to http://www.google.com/yyy?
21:37:40 <alise> WE MAY NEVER KNOW.
21:37:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
21:37:50 <alise> I thought for a single happy second that you might be using Google to somehow host the pastes.
21:37:52 <alise> NOT THE CASE.
21:37:55 <alise> [ehird@dinky tmp]$ xz -9 --verbose factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar
21:37:56 <alise> factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar (1/1)
21:37:56 <alise> 52.3 % 7.0 MiB / 80.0 MiB = 0.088 708 KiB/s 1:55 1 min 50 s
21:37:57 <alise> Hum de dum.
21:37:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, installing ncompress atm
21:37:59 <fizzie> alise: I'm afraid the real reason is too boring, and will therefore not say it.
21:38:16 <alise> cpressey: what DA2 level are you on?
21:38:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, compress seems from ncompress doesn't say anything
21:38:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, and it writes it to terminal
21:38:35 <Vorpal> on ctrl-d
21:38:44 <fizzie> ncompress-compress is not a coward; ncompress-compress is not afraid of your terminals.
21:38:56 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should write PSOX2 in Factor
21:39:16 <Sgeo_> Or just that thing that was suggested instead for communication between ... thingies
21:39:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, I want to know the boring reason
21:39:20 <Sgeo_> languages
21:39:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably testing?
21:39:30 <Vorpal> considering the name
21:39:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, also, where can I get the software for that pastebin?
21:39:52 <alise> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird users 16M Sep 6 12:33 factor-linux-x86-64-2010-09-06-03-01.tar.xz
21:39:57 <Vorpal> alise, try adding -e
21:39:57 -!- wareya has joined.
21:39:59 <alise> 25M gzipped to 16M lzma'd
21:40:00 <Vorpal> alise, to xz
21:40:01 <alise> we're talking sweet
21:40:04 <alise> Vorpal: no, it was twice as slow.
21:40:09 <Vorpal> alise, it helps with 2%-3%
21:40:13 <alise> and i'm not wasting six minutes of my life waiting for that
21:40:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: You got it in one; I was testing the tinyurl link-shortener. And the code's at http://github.com/fis/zpaste/ -- not very tested, not very polished at all.
21:40:25 <Vorpal> alise, 6 minutes? are you on a low power netbook?
21:40:33 <alise> Vorpal: no
21:40:42 <alise> i'm just running a ton of other stuff and don't have the fastest raw CPU speed
21:40:44 <Vorpal> alise, since 6 minutes is about the time xz -9 -e 700mb.iso took on my thinkpad
21:40:52 <alise> this only matters when doing data compression.
21:40:56 <Vorpal> alise, 2.26 GHz
21:40:59 <alise> (video playback is fine)
21:41:00 <alise> as i said
21:41:05 <alise> this only matters when doing data compression
21:41:18 <Vorpal> alise, well sure, I'm just laughing at your low end system :P
21:41:32 <alise> Vorpal: that does all the things i want it to that yours doesn't.
21:41:51 <Vorpal> alise, Which would presumably involve size and weight?
21:41:52 <alise> such as: have a much, much longer battery life. be able to be carried by my weakling arms without even noticing.
21:41:55 <alise> having a display usable in daylight.
21:41:56 <alise> etc.
21:42:06 <alise> so really i don't give a shit about the number of hz your computer is
21:42:09 <Vorpal> alise, but one not usable indoors
21:42:10 <alise> hey, mine's greener. do i get points for that?
21:42:13 <alise> Vorpal: yes, it is.
21:42:22 <alise> I have never once noticed a single reflection and I have excellent eyesight.
21:42:24 -!- Hiant has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]).
21:42:28 <alise> even on dark images
21:42:33 <Vorpal> alise, and mine is blacker, I should get the same number of points for that as you do for your greenness
21:42:45 <alise> i think you should shut up now
21:42:55 <Vorpal> nah
21:43:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh *.cgi
21:43:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, I was hoping for a static directory with client program
21:43:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah *.cgi is pretty useless to me
21:43:39 <Vorpal> since I don't use such a setup
21:43:41 <alise> "Because servers are EVIL!"
21:43:52 <alise> I don't think fizzie writes software to be useful for you.
21:43:54 <Vorpal> alise, no "because that thing is setup for fast-cgi"
21:43:56 <cpressey> alise: I am giving it a break on stage 29
21:44:05 <alise> cpressey: psht, 66 represent
21:44:18 <cpressey> i know. i sucketh!
21:44:23 <alise> fizzie: what's /space?
21:44:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you can hack it if you want. But really, it's not meant to be useful for anyone, a friend of mine just bugged me to put it online.
21:44:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:44:44 <fizzie> alise: An external HD.
21:44:54 <fizzie> (My web server's a laptop.)
21:44:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, README.md? Wtf is .md?
21:44:57 <alise> fizzie: How boring!
21:45:02 <alise> Vorpal: markdown
21:45:05 <Vorpal> ah
21:45:12 <alise> fizzie: I wonder if having /foo be owned by non-root is considered bad practice.
21:45:17 <alise> (Probably, I'd guess.)
21:46:02 <fizzie> alise: Probably, though I think /space has a rather messy ownership. I think the rootmost /space is owned by root:momus and has the modes drwxr-s---.
21:46:07 <alise> `fetch http://filebin.ca/mswrn/xaa
21:46:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, /space ? um
21:46:28 <HackEgo> 2010-09-06 20:46:05 URL:http://filebin.ca/mswrn/xaa [8255382/8255382] -> "xaa" [1]
21:46:33 <Vorpal> on what system?
21:46:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some paths in the scripts refer to the path /space.
21:46:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh
21:47:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, a suid directory?
21:47:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, Kurzweil actually said that the brain could be emulated in a million lines of codE?
21:47:26 <Phantom_Hoover> *code
21:47:33 <fizzie> sgid, so that all files get the correct group easier.
21:47:35 <Phantom_Hoover> That wasn't a misquotation?
21:47:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it probably can, plus a huge data file
21:47:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
21:47:53 <Vorpal> well yes sgid obviously
21:47:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, how?
21:47:59 <alise> a million lines of code to emulate a neuron (perhaps with some approximation that can be corrected for by manual correction values)
21:48:03 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:48:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: plus a gigantic data file, a scan of all the brain's neurons
21:48:12 <alise> plus manual correction values if necessary
21:48:15 <fizzie> *Any*way, I couldn't quite decide between markdown, textile and org-mode for the README; went with Markdown for no particular reasons.
21:48:17 -!- SimonRC has joined.
21:48:18 <alise> we can emulate e.g. a rat neuron easily
21:48:19 <alise> soo
21:48:22 <alise> a million lines of code should be enough
21:48:25 <alise> but it'll be VERY slow
21:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it's not *that* simple.
21:48:28 <alise> and a total neuron scan sounds hard.
21:48:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
21:48:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you can emulate a rat neuron with $5 of equip from radio shack
21:48:39 <alise> iirc
21:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes, but there's more to the brain than just neurons interacting.
21:49:06 <Phantom_Hoover> There are feedback systems, hormones, etc.
21:49:17 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: A million lines of code for any programming language implementation you want, and then a "data file" containing brain-scans and a brain implementation in that language.
21:49:18 <Vorpal> indeed.
21:49:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: and it doesn't take a million lines to implement a neuron
21:49:29 <alise> so you have the rest free.
21:49:36 <Sgeo_> How about modeling all the molecules?
21:49:36 <alise> `fetch http://filebin.ca/syfpua/xab
21:49:47 <alise> ...anyway, if we merely mean something as intelligent as a human,
21:49:55 <HackEgo> 2010-09-06 20:49:32 URL:http://filebin.ca/syfpua/xab [8255382/8255382] -> "xab" [1]
21:49:56 <alise> then given a sufficiently expressive language (probably highly reflective)
21:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, so far away from practical you can't see it with a telescope
21:50:00 <oklopol> alise: you do realize a neuron contains a network about as complicated as the brain?
21:50:02 <alise> maybe a million lines of code would do
21:50:13 <alise> oklopol: yes, well.
21:50:17 <oklopol> actually basically the nucleus of each cell does
21:50:17 <alise> oklopol: nobody said it had to be practical
21:50:18 <Sgeo_> oklopol, /me knows little about neuroscience
21:50:21 <Sgeo_> Please explain
21:50:31 <oklopol> although naturally most of it is probably not used for computation
21:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, a) Kurzweil's argument was based on information content of DNA, so he's still nuts.
21:51:05 * Sgeo_ wants Kurzweil to be right
21:51:10 <alise> `run cat xaa xab | unxz | tar xf /dev/stdin
21:51:10 <Sgeo_> That doesn't make him right, ofc
21:51:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah, RNA messes all that up
21:51:12 <distant_figure> alise: I am hiato :P
21:51:12 <HackEgo> No output.
21:51:13 <Vorpal> and so on
21:51:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm afraid he really isn't.
21:51:16 <alise> `ls
21:51:18 <HackEgo> No output.
21:51:19 <alise> distant_figure: wow, how did we summon you
21:51:25 <alise> oh, have you been in here all the time
21:51:27 <alise> <alise> `ls
21:51:27 <alise> <HackEgo> No output.
21:51:30 <alise> Gregor I BROKE IT AGAIN
21:51:32 <Phantom_Hoover> He obviously doesn't even understand DNA in the slightest.
21:51:32 <distant_figure> 22:55 #esoteric: < alise> distant_figure: wow, how did we summon you
21:51:37 <distant_figure> er
21:51:44 <distant_figure> 21:23 #esoteric: < alise> where is Hiato anyway? he's fun
21:51:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: he responded to that rebuttal. iirc.
21:51:46 <alise> saying he was misquoted
21:51:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, oh? How?
21:52:01 <alise> i don't know
21:52:02 <oklopol> Sgeo_: that's about all i know, and even that may not be completely true, all i'm saying is we don't know anything about even the small parts, my uncle does white cell research, so i've heard about a kilobyte about this stuff.
21:52:08 * alise looks for the link
21:52:14 <alise> http://www.kurzweilai.net/ray-kurzweil-responds-to-ray-kurzweil-does-not-understand-the-brain
21:52:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.kurzweilai.net/ray-kurzweil-responds-to-ray-kurzweil-does-not-understand-the-brain
21:52:24 <oklopol> so it's not *necessarily* true that you can write a computer program to simulate a neuron
21:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, if his argument is anywhere near "DNA hasn't much in it" it's basically unrecoverable.
21:52:50 <fizzie> oklopol: Bah, just put f(n) = 2/(1+exp(-2*n))-1 in there, that's computationally good enough a neuron!
21:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Heh.
21:53:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, why that specific function?
21:53:20 <oklopol> i'm wondering the same
21:53:24 <alise> cpressey: a fun lisp implementation technique is have car and cdr be arrays
21:53:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, but anyway, define "simulate a neuron" the way you mean it.
21:53:26 <oklopol> should i recognize it?
21:53:30 <alise> and a cons cell is an index in those arrays
21:53:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's "tansig" from MATLAB's neural networking toolbox; supposedly it's the same as tanh.
21:53:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, are you at dendrite abstractions, or lower?
21:53:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i meant nothing.
21:53:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh
21:53:48 <alise> i was being vague on purpose
21:53:49 <Gregor> alise: I am still yet to figure out how it breaks :P
21:53:51 <alise> as a rogue sort of approximation
21:53:54 <alise> Gregor: well, restart it :P
21:53:56 <oklopol> fizzie: did you think someone would get the reference?
21:53:57 <cpressey> alise: arrays?
21:54:04 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:54:04 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:54:06 -!- HackEgo has joined.
21:54:08 -!- EgoBot has joined.
21:54:09 <alise> Gregor: I think maybe tar tried to read /dev/stdin which was bigger than 10 MB and something blew up? Not that that makes any sense.
21:54:10 <fizzie> oklopol: I just wanted something math-looking, you know.
21:54:11 <alise> cpressey: yes
21:54:13 <alise> in the impl
21:54:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, it broke?
21:54:21 <cpressey> oh no the conversation has turned to rat neurons
21:54:28 <alise> car[my_id] = the_car; cdr[my_id] = the_cdr;
21:54:31 <Gregor> alise: I don't suppose you actually have a test case that will reliably break it?
21:54:34 <alise> id car(id x) { return car[x]; }
21:54:40 <alise> id car(id x) { return cdr[x]; }
21:54:40 <alise> well
21:54:43 <alise> with less-conflicting names
21:54:46 <alise> Gregor: let's see if I don't!
21:54:57 <alise> `run (cat xaa xab | unxz | tar xf /dev/stdin) 2>&1
21:54:59 <HackEgo> /bin/tar: /dev/stdin: Cannot open: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now \ /bin/cat: write error: Broken pipe
21:55:00 <fizzie> Anyway, it's a nice neuron; it maps the whole R into [-1, 1].
21:55:03 <alise> `ls
21:55:06 <HackEgo> awklisp \ babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ factor \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.22477 \ wunderbar_emporium \ xaa \ xab
21:55:09 <alise> Gregor: No! I do not!
21:55:13 <Gregor> Foobar
21:55:17 <Gregor> Anyway, try tar xf -
21:55:17 <oklopol> "<fizzie> oklopol: I just wanted something math-looking, you know." <<< but you used a neuralism related function just in case someone asks?
21:55:20 <Gregor> Rather than tar xf /dev/stdin
21:55:22 <alise> Gregor: I think it's an error in the bot.
21:55:25 <alise> Also, that works? Fuuuck GNU.
21:55:30 <alise> `run (cat xaa xab | unxz | tar xf -) 2>&1
21:55:32 <Vorpal> alise, um that isn't gnu
21:55:36 <alise> Gregor: An error in the IRC code, that is.
21:55:37 <Vorpal> alise, that is POSIX afaik
21:55:41 <HackEgo> /bin/tar: factor/factor.image: Wrote only 1024 of 10240 bytes \ /bin/tar: factor/factor.image: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/authors.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/tags.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar:
21:55:41 <fizzie> oklopol: Right. Got to cover all bases.
21:55:43 <alise> Vorpal: Not supporting /dev/stdin is GNU.
21:55:54 <alise> I don't particularly care if POSIX legalised stupidity after-the-fact.
21:55:54 * Sgeo_ growls at HackEgo
21:55:59 <alise> Gregor: WAT.
21:56:04 <oklopol> FireFly: you're an awesome person
21:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "The amount of information in the genome (after lossless compression, which is feasible because of the massive redundancy in the genome) is about 50 million bytes (down from 800 million bytes in the uncompressed genome). It is true that the information in the genome goes through a complex route to create a brain, but the information in the genome constrains the amount of information in the brain prior to the
21:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> brain’s interaction with its environment."
21:56:05 <Gregor> alise: That's pretty confusing X-D
21:56:06 <oklopol> ehm
21:56:06 <Vorpal> alise, um, I meant - is the standard way for tar
21:56:13 <oklopol> FireFly: correction, you're not awesome at all
21:56:18 <FireFly> Aw
21:56:20 <oklopol> fizzie: you're an awesome person
21:56:20 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think POSIX even mentions /dev/stdin in the context of tar
21:56:23 <alise> <HackEgo> /bin/tar: factor/factor.image: Wrote only 1024 of 10240 bytes \ /bin/tar: factor/factor.image: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/authors.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/tags.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar:
21:56:25 <FireFly> I guess I-ve had my seconds of awesomeness
21:56:27 <FireFly> I've*
21:56:28 <alise> Gregor: maybe ulimits are stopping it writing factor.image?
21:56:34 <Vorpal> alise, while I'm pretty sure it mentions - should work. Like it does for cat and so on
21:56:43 <fizzie> (It also has probably no recognizable similarity to how a real neuron behaves, which I believe is a lot more thresholdy; but I wouldn't know about that, I'm not a brain guy. We have a separate department full of brain guys.)
21:56:45 <Gregor> alise: Possibly, but I'm not sure why since it didn't tell me X-D
21:56:56 <alise> `run (cat xaa xab | unxz | tar --exclude=factor/factor.image xf -) 2>&1
21:56:59 <HackEgo> /bin/tar: You must specify one of the `-Acdtrux' or `--test-label' options \ Try `/bin/tar --help' or `/bin/tar --usage' for more information. \ /bin/cat: write error: Broken pipe
21:57:07 <alise> `run (cat xaa xab | unxz | tar xf - --exclude=factor/factor.image) 2>&1
21:57:17 <HackEgo> /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/authors.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/tags.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/pl0-tests.factor: Cannot utime: No such file or directory \ /bin/tar: factor/extra/peg/pl0/summary.txt: Cannot utime: No such file or
21:57:22 <alise> Gregor: WHAAAT ;__;
21:57:24 <alise> `ls factor
21:57:28 <HackEgo> factor.image
21:57:36 <alise> `run rm -rf factor
21:57:38 <HackEgo> No output.
21:57:47 <Vorpal> alise, maybe quotas?
21:57:53 * cpressey cannot keep up
21:57:53 <alise> Vorpal: no.
21:57:56 <alise> it would tell Gregor
21:57:57 <Vorpal> hm okay
21:58:02 <oklopol> fizzie: are the brain people smart?
21:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Brain people?
21:59:09 <oklopol> yes
21:59:11 <oklopol> brain people
21:59:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd just like a little clarification on that.
21:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you mean brains in jars?
21:59:34 <oklopol> well you know the brain dudes
21:59:41 <oklopol> brain guys
21:59:45 <fizzie> oklopol: They must be at least smarter than me, because I don't really understand them at all. I went to two-three lectures of one brain course, and it was just unfamiliar sequences of letters.
21:59:46 <oklopol> brain hombres
22:00:18 <oklopol> we do neuropsychology or whateverlogy here too, a lot, afaik
22:00:20 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:00:44 <oklopol> but i don't think they have any interesting courses on it, based on the fact i haven't taken any
22:00:50 <Sgeo_> Everything's ok, thanks for asking
22:00:53 <oklopol> why would you take brain lectures?
22:01:11 <Gregor> alise: Idonno, that's all very wtf X-D
22:01:16 <oklopol> Sgeo_: good, was getting worried back there
22:01:30 <Vorpal> alise, why do you want factor in hackego?
22:01:33 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: brains are largely environment
22:01:53 <Vorpal> alise, just write a patch to add it to egobot instead?
22:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> This is my problem with the people who say it can be emulated that easily.
22:02:12 <alise> Vorpal: because this is easier
22:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not just picking apart a neural network.
22:02:16 <oklopol> they are fucking retards?
22:02:19 <oklopol> oh
22:02:23 <fizzie> oklopol: A friend dragged me there. There was a single brain lecture by a computer (well, information) guy on the course, that was amusing and understandable, but not very interesting.
22:02:25 <oklopol> something more specific
22:02:25 <alise> <Sgeo_> Everything's ok, thanks for asking ;; what?
22:02:58 <Sgeo_> alise, my joining with N1 usually means that my computer's acting weird
22:03:07 <Sgeo_> In thsis case, I just want to watch Futurama
22:03:19 <oklopol> my first thought when i saw N1
22:03:20 <oklopol> was
22:03:24 <oklopol> Sgeo_ shot himself
22:03:30 <oklopol> true story
22:03:44 <oklopol> that's why i didn't ask
22:04:14 <oklopol> fizzie: we have a fun course in tilings starting tomorrow, am i friend enough to be able to drag you there?
22:04:32 * Phantom_Hoover wishes he had such an interesting life
22:04:34 <oklopol> i would probably need twice the friend points since it's a bit of a commute...
22:04:34 <fizzie> oklopol: The physical distance might be a bit much.
22:05:11 <cpressey> alise: I wil try to wrap my head around car & cdr as arrays. I will fail.
22:05:20 -!- Zuu has joined.
22:05:20 <alise> cpressey: Okay, it's simple.
22:05:23 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: as interesting as Sgeo_, the suicidal futurophile?
22:05:26 <alise> cpressey: Here's cons:
22:05:30 <cpressey> alise: you don't have to explain
22:05:37 <alise> cpressey: no, it'll be trivial once you get it
22:05:38 <alise> sec
22:06:18 <oklopol> how can a car be an array?!!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?
22:06:34 <ais523> ([1, 2, 3] foo bar)
22:06:48 <alise> fff
22:06:50 <alise> ais523: no
22:06:50 <fizzie> oklopol: We have a "learning from multiple sources" course starting on Thu; I keep misthinking it as "multiple sorcerers". (It's also arranged by a guy with a reputation for making courses take way too much work/time/effort/etc. I'm not selling this very well, I guess.)
22:06:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, no, as you and fizzie
22:06:55 <ais523> alise: why not?
22:07:01 <alise> ais523: that's not what i mean at all
22:07:04 <ais523> ah, OK
22:07:04 <alise> and cpressey knows this
22:07:06 <alise> :P
22:07:10 <alise> i'm talking about implementation
22:07:26 <oklopol> fizzie: i basically get an erection from having to do tons of work.
22:07:51 <oklopol> that's like my thing
22:08:08 <oklopol> multiple sources?
22:08:32 <oklopol> i do have a ridiculously small amount of courses atm
22:08:44 <cpressey> Gregor: does "Quarp" mean something?
22:09:06 <Gregor> Arguably.
22:09:14 <fizzie> "Learning from multiple sources denotes the problem of jointly learning from a set of (partially) related learning problems / views / tasks. This general concept underlies several subfields receiving increasing interest from the machine learning community, which differ in terms of the assumptions made about the dependency structure between learning problems."
22:09:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, um... another ridiculous post?
22:09:21 <fizzie> "During the course, we will cover a number of different learning tasks for integrating multiple sources and go through recent advances in the field. Examples of topics covered by the course include data fusion, transfer learning, multitask learning, multiview learning, and learning under covariate shift."
22:09:38 <fizzie> I'm afraid it might be insufficiently mathy for you, though.
22:11:00 <fizzie> I have a total of two (2) courses this autumn; then I'm officially out of courses, since you only need 60 course credits worth of theoretical stuff for the phd. Though I guess they'd still let me participate if I really wanted.
22:11:35 <Quadrescence> Phantom_Hoover: what the only thing i posted was to my ``blog''
22:11:43 <alise> cpressey: http://pastie.org/1142342.txt?key=dsc3dhyhd7k6ww4npr2pda
22:12:06 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, um... another ridiculous post? ;; ??
22:12:35 <oklopol> i'm on four courses now, and one semicourse, one more in the second period
22:12:35 <cpressey> alise: Norf!!
22:12:44 <alise> cpressey: wort
22:12:48 <alise> (what)
22:12:51 <cpressey> alise: I get it
22:13:00 <alise> cpressey: see how helpful I am?
22:13:04 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: because this is easier <-- um, in theory yes, but doesn't seem so in practise
22:13:07 <alise> awklisp does this
22:13:13 <alise> i think ichbins does too, not sure
22:13:16 <oklopol> but i'm hoping to get the easy parts of my thesis done in the first period
22:13:57 <fizzie> alise: Ha, that thing reminds me of 16-bit-cell 6502 forths; their stacks tend to put high and low bytes to different blocks, because then you just need to increment/decrement a stack pointer value by one, rather than two.
22:14:19 <alise> fizzie: ha
22:14:23 <oklopol> so i'm trying to take as few as possible
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22:15:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:15:55 <fizzie> Which thesis was this. I mean, did you already graduate once? Can't quite recall.
22:17:03 <alise> GO BACK ON EVIL ESCAPE KEY
22:17:45 <fizzie> Hey, if you put a dash after esc, it's an esc-ape.
22:19:20 <alise> http://mamememo.blogspot.com/2010/09/qlobe.html
22:19:24 <alise> rotating iterated quine globe
22:19:31 <alise> for any iterations from 1 to 360
22:21:41 <oklopol> fizzie: i have a BS now, or would if i returned the thing
22:22:02 <oklopol> (i already know the grade etc, i'm just too lazy to do the paperwork)
22:23:32 <oklopol> so it's my master's thesis
22:23:56 <alise> did tennis for two actually involve any skill?
22:25:31 <fizzie> oklopol: Okay. It's just that someone told me that for the doctoral thesis it's best to get the (small amount of) coursework done out of the way first, and was wondering about your thesis-first plans. But for the master's it sounds more sensibley.
22:27:05 <oklopol> you thought i might already be doing my phd after essentially studying math for a year?
22:27:44 <oklopol> i decided to ask if i could do that if i get any significant results during summer, but i didn't so i'm doing master's first
22:28:15 <oklopol> for any definition of significant, i was a waste of space all summer
22:28:47 <fizzie> Well, I don't know how math works! Math is hard! Maybe one math-year is equivalent to several dog, excuse me, computer-years. (No, in reality I just tend to lose track of years.)
22:29:46 <fizzie> I would've believed you if you told me you now have a meter-long math-beard and live in a tower built out of theorems named after you.
22:29:57 <oklopol> :D
22:30:47 <oklopol> i'll keep my fingers crossed
22:30:54 <fizzie> I may be confusing mathematicians with wizards.
22:32:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
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22:37:21 <oklopol> are mathematicians wizard-like according to your sorcerers
22:37:30 -!- benuphoenix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:41:02 -!- benuphoenix has joined.
22:42:00 -!- Jonty has joined.
22:42:19 <fizzie> I can't quite conceive a young wizard, nor a young mathematician; ergo they're the same thing.
22:45:04 <fizzie> (87 % of sorcerers agree.)
22:46:25 <Sgeo_> *sourceror
22:46:29 <Sgeo_> *sourcerer?
22:47:10 <Sgeo_> Yeah, Sourcerer
22:47:15 <olsner> sourceerror
22:50:03 -!- benuphoenix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:58:49 <alise> fizzie: why not?
22:59:02 <alise> young mathematician: galois :P
22:59:07 <alise> unless you meant conceive in the other sense.
22:59:23 <alise> in which case, I recommend adoption.
22:59:41 <alise> cpressey: can I borrow some of your attention? I need some.
23:02:17 <cpressey> alise: if it's ok if i eat while i attend you
23:02:23 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:03:22 <alise> cpressey: how will you send the attention
23:03:41 <cpressey> alise: in quantized packets
23:10:48 <fizzie> I do intellectually know that there must be many young ones, I just somehow can't conceptualize one.
23:11:12 <cpressey> alise: i just realized if i give you my attention i will have NONE, and i won't even be able to snuffle around aimlessly at various windows on my destop like a computer-literate ferret.
23:11:16 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:11:29 <cpressey> alise: so, what do you need it for? it better be important.
23:11:39 <alise> i need it so that i can get things done
23:11:53 <alise> but that is now unnecessary OMG I WANT A COMPUTER-LITERATE FERRET
23:12:18 <olsner> if the collatz problem ends up being undecidable, does that imply it would be turing complete?
23:12:35 <alise> olsner: err, not really
23:12:38 <alise> halt/not halt != TC
23:12:47 <alise> and computing the next term is trivial
23:12:52 <alise> so i very much doubt it
23:13:12 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:13:16 <alise> cpressey: Silly idea:
23:13:37 <alise> hmm
23:13:45 <alise> what's the x86 assembler instruction to "put this value here, literally"? I forget ...
23:13:46 <olsner> alise: that's what I suspected
23:14:03 <cpressey> olsner: if someone proved that it was undecidable by mapping a UTM to it, then yes. but not necessarily
23:14:13 <oklopol> "<olsner> if the collatz problem ends up being undecidable, does that imply it would be turing complete?" <<< when do people start asking these things
23:14:16 <oklopol> and by start
23:14:21 <oklopol> i - obviously - mean stop
23:14:29 <cpressey> obviously
23:14:34 <cpressey> alise: mov?
23:14:41 <alise> cpressey: no, no, i mean
23:14:42 <alise> like
23:14:43 <alise> data 3
23:14:48 <olsner> oklopol: we'll stop when there's a proof :P
23:14:50 <alise> cpressey: so if you wrote machine code
23:14:52 <alise> you could go
23:14:52 <cpressey> oh... varies by assembler
23:14:55 <alise> data 1 data 48 data 934
23:14:56 <alise> etc.
23:15:01 <cpressey> alise: nasm?
23:15:02 <alise> cpressey: do you know what it is in nasm?
23:15:04 <alise> ha
23:15:09 <cpressey> um
23:15:11 <cpressey> i have to look
23:15:19 <alise> grr, what retard decided not to hyperlink the list of instructions in intel's x86 reference?
23:15:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:15:50 <olsner> alise: you mean like put constant data in your assembly program?
23:16:03 <alise> yes
23:16:06 <cpressey> alise: db 0xff dw 0xffff
23:16:12 <alise> cpressey: thanks
23:16:21 <cpressey> (that is stored at the label 'alise' :)
23:16:50 <alise> hmm, what's the machine code for "move these literal 32-bits into EAX?"
23:16:58 <alise> A1 MOV EAX,moffs32* Move doubleword at (seg:offset) to EAX ;; isn't it
23:16:58 <olsner> there should be dd and dq for double-word and quad-word data as well, if relevant
23:17:14 <olsner> mov instructions take immediate operands too
23:17:26 <alise> olsner: in /machine code/?
23:17:30 <olsner> so .... e.g. mov eax, 1
23:17:38 <alise> i'm not talking assembly
23:17:41 <alise> i'm talking raw opcodes here
23:17:46 <alise> of which mov has like 50 bajillion
23:18:06 <olsner> oh, not "is there", but *what is* the machine code
23:19:13 <cpressey> echo 'mov eax, 1' > foo.s && nasm foo.s foo.com && hd foo.com
23:19:28 <alise> cpressey: Dude, I'm sort of on Linux here. :)
23:19:41 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
23:19:41 <cpressey> alise: so? you're not RUNNING it
23:19:43 * alise sudo clyde -S yasm
23:19:44 <cpressey> (the .com)
23:19:54 <alise> cpressey: i don't believe we have hd
23:19:54 <alise> do we?
23:20:00 <alise> hexdump, yes
23:20:01 <cpressey> probably caled hexdump
23:20:05 <cpressey> callllllllled
23:20:15 * alise wonders what the yasm switches are to produce a com
23:20:15 -!- Hiant has joined.
23:20:20 <cpressey> What does GreaseMonkey's quit message mean?
23:20:22 <olsner> windows doesn't have either hd or hexdump anyway
23:20:27 <alise> nobody knows
23:20:50 <Hiant> alise: Well, I put the compiler on Esolang.
23:20:50 <cpressey> if they come back i'll ask them
23:20:55 <alise> hmph, it can only do dosexe
23:20:56 <alise> ah
23:20:56 <alise> bin
23:20:57 <alise> flat format binary
23:21:11 <alise> 0000000 b866 0001 0000
23:21:11 <alise> 0000006
23:21:46 <alise> so
23:21:48 <olsner> oh, that looks like word-wise little-endian, which is wildly confusing
23:21:50 <alise> 00000000 66 b8 01 00 00 00 |f.....|
23:21:55 <olsner> use -C or something to get it by byte :)
23:21:59 <alise> yeah, just dude -C
23:22:01 <alise> so basically
23:22:06 <alise> 66, b8, VALUE
23:22:36 <olsner> for small values there are probably shorter ways to write it
23:22:36 <alise> is "db 0xAB db 0xCD" always == "dw 0xABCD"?
23:22:58 <olsner> I think it'd be dw 0xCDAB
23:23:03 <alise> right
23:23:44 <olsner> but since x86 normally doesn't care about alignment or anything I'm pretty sure it's exactly equivalent to have a pair of db or a single dw
23:23:52 <alise> so double-word = 32-bit right?
23:23:54 <alise> as far as d* goes
23:24:52 <alise> Then
23:24:55 <cpressey> alise: uh. are you writing a Pixley *compiler* in *assembly*? I'm s'posing not, but...
23:24:59 <alise> I present to you
23:25:00 <alise> malloc: db 0x66
23:25:00 <alise> db 0xb8
23:25:00 <alise> next_alloc: dd 0x00000001
23:25:00 <alise> ret
23:25:05 <alise> erm, wait
23:25:08 <alise> that needs an inc next_alloc
23:25:09 <alise> sec
23:25:16 <alise> how do you do ++ in asm?
23:25:24 <alise> also, the idea is that free() tweaks next_alloc >:)
23:25:34 <alise> cpressey: tl;dr a malloc() that goes ridiculously fast for no real reason
23:25:38 <alise> and i may well do that
23:25:41 <alise> well
23:25:42 <alise> compiler would be insane
23:25:43 <olsner> inc [next_alloc]
23:25:55 <alise> malloc: inc [next_alloc]
23:25:55 <alise> db 0x66
23:25:55 <alise> db 0xb8
23:25:55 <alise> next_alloc: dd 0x00000001
23:25:55 <alise> ret
23:25:58 <alise> BEHOLD!!!!111
23:26:28 <alise> of course all the TOTALLY BORING safety features of recent processors will stop this fun
23:26:34 <cpressey> alise: now make free() take O(n^3) time
23:26:41 <alise> cpressey: why
23:26:59 <olsner> x86 probably has cache coherency crud that makes it actually work to change the code as you go... other cpus would require you to flush the instruction cache after doing that
23:27:09 <olsner> at least if the memory protection features are suitably disabled
23:27:52 <alise> Hooray for crud!
23:27:54 <olsner> oh, and of course, changing the code that close to running it probably comes with a massive penalty even when it works
23:28:16 <cpressey> alise: hooray for crud! see i thought you were writing the interpreter in asm until you asked what the machine codes for mov were, then i thought you were writing a compiler
23:28:21 <alise> SHUT UP OLSNER
23:28:26 <alise> ok put the inc afterwards
23:28:44 <alise> cpressey: I may be too lazy to even write ANYTHING!
23:28:52 <madbr> yeah the penalty for self modifying code on pentiums is ridiculous
23:28:58 <alise> How horrible would THAT be!
23:29:10 <madbr> they probably did that on purpose to make ppl stop doing that
23:29:13 <olsner> depending on how the rest of the code you generate looks, you could just reserve a register for the heap pointer
23:30:08 <alise> cpressey: Maybe I'll implement Pixley in awk!
23:30:17 <olsner> one register would be like a quarter of your usable registers though :)
23:30:43 * Sgeo_ should write some bots in Factor
23:30:59 <Sgeo_> Factor _still_ gives me a bit of a headache though
23:31:56 <olsner> alise: you should definitely go through with this and complete a compiler that outputs runnable machine code
23:32:05 <alise> so google has ads in the completion list now
23:32:10 <olsner> it'll expand your mind! (and completely fill the expanded parts with inane details on x86 instruction encodings)
23:32:19 <alise> but i hate x86 with a fiery passion
23:33:02 <cpressey> 80286 is not bad but anything more recent than that is slimey
23:33:21 <olsner> if it weren't for delay slots and all that, MIPS is a quite nice instruction set
23:33:33 <cpressey> you can just crib off the std libs for shelta
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23:33:41 <olsner> the instructions are practically entire structs
23:34:00 * Sgeo_ thinks there will probably be one person in all of AW who uses his Factor bindings...
23:34:14 <alise> and one person in all of Factor who uses your AW bindings
23:34:37 <alise> How do you refer to captured groups in awk? >__>
23:34:39 <alise> when you do /(foo)/
23:35:00 <cpressey> alise: with a ball peen hammer
23:35:18 <alise> ic
23:35:55 <cpressey> is it not $1, $2, etc?
23:35:59 <alise> no, that's fields
23:36:05 <alise> (whitespace-separated, I think)
23:36:11 <alise> grr, why doesn't awk operate on arbitrary substrings, not lines?
23:36:13 <cpressey> i see
23:36:15 <alise> i can't parse Lisp with this!
23:36:20 <cpressey> because it's AWK
23:36:26 <alise> bah
23:36:32 <alise> i want substrawk
23:36:56 <olsner> I think you can specify your own record separator that isn't newline
23:36:57 <cpressey> it's not a programming language, well it is, but it's not
23:37:20 <cpressey> i think you can too
23:37:29 <alise> fuck emacs assembler mode, it's gas
23:37:36 <alise> olsner: you can't specify "", though
23:37:56 <cpressey> gnu emacs. gnu as. those guys really stick together.
23:38:40 <cpressey> NOW, where was I?
23:38:48 <fizzie> I have a nasm-mode for Emacs, but it's full of my annoying idiosyncracies and therefore probably not people-friendly.
23:39:08 <alise> http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/structural_regexps/se.pdf
23:39:14 <alise> advocates substring based awk
23:40:23 <olsner> hmm, I think I haven't written any assembly since I started using vim ... at least not at home
23:41:21 <alise> cpressey: Let's learn PDP assembly.
23:41:22 <olsner> but I remember that nedit had highlighting for intel assembly
23:41:26 <alise> HAKMEM has tons of Lisp material for that.
23:41:32 <alise> olsner: heh nedit
23:41:58 <alise> cpressey: does Pixley have 'x syntax?
23:42:18 <alise> yes
23:42:19 <alise> it does
23:42:22 <cpressey> (quote x)
23:42:33 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/nasm-mode -- usable as nasm-mode.el if someone wants one. (Again, idiosyncratic and annoying.)
23:42:35 <cpressey> it doesn't have the ' syntax, technically
23:43:11 <cpressey> alise: let's learn Python's bytecode
23:43:19 <cpressey> *CPython
23:43:26 <alise> cpressey: no. ew
23:43:36 <Sgeo_> As a Python native: TEACH ME!
23:43:37 <alise> cpressey: "Pixley's syntax is identical to Scheme's"
23:43:40 <cpressey> make an ew proposal, get an ew response
23:43:41 <alise> *Scheme's.
23:43:43 <alise> *Scheme's.*
23:43:45 <alise> *Scheme's."
23:43:48 <alise> cpressey: but PDP assembly is good
23:44:19 <cpressey> alise: ok, that's a hole
23:44:25 <alise> fizzie: c64-asm-mode :D
23:44:28 <alise> cpressey: I won't do ', then.
23:44:40 <alise> err, is awk meant to echo out lines by default?
23:44:44 <Vorpal> <alise> (whitespace-separated, I think) <-- by default yes. you can change that by -F
23:44:49 <Vorpal> or FS in awk itself
23:45:17 <alise> for some reason
23:45:21 <alise> FS = " \t\n()"
23:45:22 <alise> echoes stdin
23:45:25 <alise> erm
23:45:26 <fizzie> alise: oh, is that in a comment there? They share the code.
23:45:26 <alise> /[0-9]+/ { print }
23:45:27 <alise> too
23:45:29 <Vorpal> alise, um
23:45:30 <olsner> alise: except for the abomination that is motif and its sucky implementations, nedit is quite nice editor
23:45:42 <alise> olsner: yes, just unusual choice
23:45:44 <Vorpal> alise, that is not record separator though
23:45:50 <Vorpal> alise, it is field separator
23:46:00 <alise> Vorpal: hm, indeed
23:46:03 <Vorpal> alise, besides you linked awklisp before
23:46:07 <alise> and?
23:46:12 <alise> it uses a read() procedure
23:46:15 <Vorpal> ah...
23:46:23 <alise> is record separator RS?
23:46:28 <alise> yes
23:46:28 <Vorpal> alise, I don't remember
23:46:34 <Vorpal> alise, I don't think I *ever* changed it
23:46:52 <alise> now why does this program:
23:46:55 <alise> RS = " \t\n()"
23:46:55 <alise> /[0-9]+/ { print }
23:46:58 <alise> echo all lines?
23:47:09 <Vorpal> no clue
23:47:12 <alise> ...and also print out the whole line, not just the number...
23:47:32 <Vorpal> well, print alone would print the whole line
23:47:36 <Vorpal> pretty obviously
23:47:46 <Vorpal> alise, you just matched a record
23:47:53 <Vorpal> not a field
23:47:58 <alise> oh you have to put RS= in BEGIN
23:48:03 <alise> Vorpal: yes, but the whole line is one record
23:48:07 <alise> which should be broken by a space
23:48:09 * Sgeo_ likes PREDICATE:s
23:48:13 <alise> but see what i said
23:48:23 <Vorpal> alise, you need FS/OFS there too
23:48:25 <alise> now it waits for ^D XD
23:48:37 <alise> Vorpal: OFS is fine
23:48:44 <alise> does FS = "" work?
23:48:54 <Vorpal> alise, I have absolutely no idea
23:48:59 <alise> seems so
23:49:10 <alise> oh
23:49:11 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/c64-asm-mode just in case; though these might not be latest versions.
23:49:12 <alise> it splits every character
23:49:13 <alise> heh
23:49:23 <Vorpal> alise, I don't use awk as an esolang. I use it for some text processing where sed would be rather more painful
23:49:31 <alise> awk isn't an esolang
23:49:32 <Vorpal> so the help I can give you is rather limited
23:49:37 <alise> just a regular lang with a special feature
23:49:38 <Vorpal> alise, indeed
23:49:39 <cpressey> awk is an awklang
23:49:42 <alise> i just happen to be abusing the special feature
23:49:45 <alise> for PARSING!
23:49:48 <fizzie> ca65-specific anyway.
23:49:59 <Vorpal> alise, nor is C an esolang. Yet I would say IOCCC is a pretty esoteric usage of C
23:50:03 <alise> in fact, awk-without-separators (i.e. substring awk) is just a lexical analyser
23:50:05 <Vorpal> alise, and it was in that sense I meant here
23:51:11 <Vorpal> alise, $0 would refer to the whole record
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23:51:24 <Vorpal> presumably even with $1,$2 and so on being 1 char is
23:51:29 <Vorpal> s/is/each/
23:51:32 <Vorpal> wtf at that typo
23:51:34 <Vorpal> now, night
23:54:10 <Sgeo_> (From someone in another channel:)
23:54:10 <Sgeo_> Lets say your kid's fifteen birthday is coming up, but you only have 4 birthday candles for the birthday cake. What do you do?
23:55:01 <cpressey> fungot will know
23:55:02 <fungot> cpressey: ( ( i know yeah it's out there they have to
23:55:58 <alise> Sgeo_: Your kid's? Shit I'm young.
23:56:04 <alise> Sgeo_: Also, wish him a happy fourth birthday.
23:56:10 <alise> Or, binary.
23:56:16 <alise> 0b1111
23:56:27 <Sgeo_> I said something similar
23:56:29 <Sgeo_> "<Omorpheus> No. That is wrong. You buy more birthday candles."
23:57:43 <alise> That is also true.
23:59:51 <cpressey> Say each of the candles counts for 3.75 years.
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