←2010-09-15 2010-09-16 2010-09-17→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:04 <SgeoN1> Fuck fuck fuck fuck fco fuck fuck fuck fuck
00:01:26 <alise> qhat
00:02:15 <SgeoN1> I seem to have misplaced the wire for connecting the computer and my phone. This is the second time that that has happened. I have no way to charge my phone
00:02:32 <alise> lawl
00:03:13 <SgeoN1> I will hurtyoi alise
00:03:18 <alise> fosjdf
00:03:22 <alise> just a phone
00:04:54 <SgeoN1> Cancel that, I have a way to charge it
00:05:04 <SgeoN1> No phone to computer connection though
00:05:22 <SgeoN1> Which is killing me, ESP. With this broken comp
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00:07:20 <oerjan> <oerjan> SgeoN1: you appear to be cursed
00:07:35 <oerjan> I REST MY CASE
00:07:38 <oerjan> until next time
00:07:55 <SgeoN1> http://i.imgur.com/6ifoU.jpg what happens when I select Ubuntu
00:10:42 <alise> SgeoN1: Put a fucking LiveCD in.
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00:11:40 <SgeoN1> I need to find one
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00:13:38 <SgeoN1> I think this is some sort of karmic retribution for meeting a smart, attractive girl
00:14:06 <SgeoN1> Where it doesn't balance out good v bad
00:14:21 <SgeoN1> Just, good social v bad computer luck
00:17:06 <SgeoN1> Where the frack is my mouse?
00:19:32 <SgeoN1> Foundit
00:20:26 <pikhq> Self-dispense wine tanks to come to American supermarkets. Wow. America figured out a way to be *less* classy.
00:20:43 <pikhq> http://consumerist.com/winetank.jpg Anticlass.
00:23:40 <alise> http://hipsterhitler.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/heilvetica.jpg
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00:33:29 <SgeoN2> Alise, dad said he's going to give me a CD. Any recommendations for what to burn?
00:34:02 <alise> Uh, Ubuntu should be fine.
00:34:19 <alise> If you don't want to download all that... dunno.
00:34:46 <alise> Ubuntu has the advantage of being a good thing to install after you recover any data :P
00:34:59 <alise> (Not the beta, though.)
00:35:11 <oerjan> u burn tu
00:36:37 <pikhq> uhùnntoū
00:36:53 <oerjan> ...what
00:37:23 <alise> presumably his romanisation
00:37:29 <alise> of the ... japisation
00:37:45 <pikhq> Yes.
00:38:44 <pikhq> ウブントゥ
00:40:24 <alise> http://www.ubuntulinux.jp/
00:40:25 <alise> So boring
00:40:58 <alise> Someone set their browser to Japanese and go to ubuntu.com
00:41:23 <pikhq> That is astoundingly unshocking website design for a Japanese site.
00:41:43 <pikhq> (Japan has for the most part not grown beyond Geocities.)
00:41:58 <pikhq> (Geocities Japan, incidentally, is still around *and* used)
00:47:37 <SgeoN2> I suppose 8.10 is a bad idea
00:50:15 <SgeoN2> Will DSL have tools that I might want or need?
00:52:08 <oerjan> death squad league
00:53:20 <SgeoN2> Also, ultimate boot CD has two things that look useful here
00:53:38 <SgeoN2> But I could presumably download tthose on anu distrp
00:54:53 <SgeoN2> I think ill try parted magic
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00:59:50 <oerjan> as opposed to rejoined magic
01:18:45 <pikhq> ...
01:18:56 <pikhq> According to the DoD, protest is considered a form of terrorism.
01:19:51 <pikhq> And thus it is, in their mind, perfectly legal to torture protesters indefinitely.
01:35:01 <SgeoN2> Parted Magic came with Chromium
01:39:22 <alise> Goodnight.
01:39:39 <alise> SgeoN2: use ubuntu.
01:39:45 <alise> parted magic is lacking.
01:39:46 <alise> Bye.
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01:40:08 <SgeoN2> That's unhelpful
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06:23:09 <__s> While writing patches for Python, it was made clear that code cache was rather valuable
06:23:35 <__s> This made me think of an interpreter with multiple interpreters, so that instructions used commonly together would remain close together in the code cache
06:23:57 <__s> The overhead is of course rather silly, so I didn't go about trying to work it into CPython
06:25:20 <__s> But it struck me that that thinking works in the case of Befunge. Quadrupled the size of the interpreter for up to a third improvement in speed. That was coupled today with shifting implementation dimensions to 80x32, which was of similar benefit
06:25:50 <__s> Though the latter didn't cause such bloat size wise
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06:42:39 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: 148-key MEGABOARD: http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/enhpc.gif <-- nice, just layout? or actually built?
06:43:03 <Vorpal> ah probably not built
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07:37:49 <GreaseMonkey> i believe that is a real keyboard
07:37:58 <Slereah> Yes.
07:38:11 <GreaseMonkey> well, i'm pretty sure there is a real keyboard with ctrl + hyper + super
07:38:11 <Slereah> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg
07:38:19 <GreaseMonkey> that's the one
07:38:28 <Slereah> Awesome keyboard, really.
07:38:31 <GreaseMonkey> argh crap maybe it's not the real thing
07:38:39 <Slereah> I would just press the HYPER key until it broke
07:38:40 <GreaseMonkey> or something ugh
07:38:50 <Slereah> Press it until I get to the bonus round
07:39:09 <Slereah> Well, it's not exactly that keyboard
07:39:11 <Slereah> But pretty close
07:39:18 <Slereah> They're both LISP machines keyboards
07:40:17 <GreaseMonkey> oh crap that picture has three control keys
07:40:25 <GreaseMonkey> "The previous keyboard illustration showed a basic set of keys that could fit on a normal PC keyboard, taking the same amount of space, even though moving the main area of the keyboard slightly to the right created space for a few additional keys. The emphasis was on showing how APL characters could be distributed."
07:40:30 <GreaseMonkey> http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/kybint.htm
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08:28:41 <Deewiant> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/Fungi
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08:37:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: You did notice the writer of that was here last night, right?
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09:00:06 <trinithis> fizzie: still here, but its now night for me, so im going to sleep
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11:09:37 <Deewiant> trinithis: Main.hs needs to export main for the thing to build
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14:37:14 <Vorpal> <Slereah> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg <-- that is a different one
14:38:06 <Vorpal> <Deewiant> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/Fungi <-- does it pass mycology?
14:38:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, any updates on jitfunge btw?
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15:03:51 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Yes, it does
15:03:55 <Deewiant> fizzie: No, I didn't
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15:08:50 <CPressey> olsner: You never did say if you wanted to use that awesome language name I gave you.
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15:15:50 <olsner> CPressey: I don't think I noticed
15:15:55 <olsner> what was it?
15:16:30 * olsner goes back to sorting laundry
15:16:42 <CPressey> "Jonguilexiphonaugh", if I recall correctly. For your hash-consing Haskell-esque language.
15:16:45 <CPressey> olsner: ^
15:17:12 <olsner> ooh, I do like that name!
15:21:38 <CPressey> Please use it only for good.
15:22:57 -!- CPressey has changed nick to cpressey.
15:30:42 <olsner> since I got home so ridiculously early I'd best get kraken on implementing this thing
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15:37:32 <alise> 23:37:49 <GreaseMonkey> i believe that is a real keyboard
15:37:36 <alise> no, just an amalgamation of all of them
15:38:44 <alise> olsner: you still haven't answered MY question
15:46:42 <alise> "Children Under Four and Children With Autism Don't Yawn Contagiously"
15:46:46 <alise> omg, that means i'm not autistic
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15:49:10 <nooga> http://www.ai-contest.com/problem_description.php
15:49:12 <nooga> new mission
15:52:35 <oerjan> <alise> "Children Under Four and Children With Autism Don't Yawn Contagiously" <-- does that mean they don't yawn when others do, or that they don't cause others to yawn? :D
15:52:48 <alise> former :P
15:52:58 <alise> "I saw that too. Press releases are always overstating findings. So I looked at the paper.
15:52:58 <alise> Autistic yawners: 0 out of 15
15:52:58 <alise> Controls (various groups): between 23 and 43%
15:52:58 <alise> Soooo... for once the press release was conservative? Weird.
15:53:00 <alise> "
15:53:01 <alise> --reddit
15:53:04 <alise> s/\n"/"/
15:53:59 <Gregor> wtf.
15:54:04 <Gregor> What kind of a test group is that
15:54:06 <Gregor> 15?
15:54:17 <alise> There isn't exactly an abundance of autistic children.
15:54:31 <alise> Whose parents will let them participate in experiments.
15:54:31 <Gregor> Fine fine, but 0 is probably within statistical error of 3.
15:54:43 <Gregor> And 3 is 23% (round down)
15:54:47 <alise> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2010.01495.x/abstract;jsessionid=6AC173A7C7EF450ADD604C9A39DFEA9D.d01t01
15:54:48 <alise> Read it
15:54:53 <alise> Maybe the quote was a misquote
15:54:55 <alise> (Or justified elsewhere)
15:54:56 <Gregor> READ YOUR FACE
15:55:04 <alise> English National Provision does not have a subscription to this Journal or Article. Please contact your librarian for details.
15:55:04 <Gregor> I've got other stuff to do :P
15:55:10 <alise> how did he read the paper fucking piece of
15:55:19 <alise> shit fucker
15:55:49 <oerjan> alise: he's probably a part of the conspiracy with secret privileges
15:55:59 <alise> Fuuuck that shit
15:56:04 <alise> http://www.srcd.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=899
15:56:04 <alise> YW
15:56:05 <Gregor> I'll bet I have access through Purdue!
15:56:14 <alise> I have access
15:56:15 <alise> HA HA HA
15:56:16 <Gregor> Oh, no results ...
15:56:18 <alise> s/ $//
15:56:19 <alise> HAHAHA
15:56:21 <alise> LOSER
15:56:22 <Gregor> I'll bet I don't have access through Purdue!
15:56:24 * cpressey felt like yawning when he read that headline
15:56:29 <alise> I REJECT YOUR BET
15:56:35 <alise> cpressey: You're not autistic! Or under 4!
15:56:41 <oerjan> sorry, *Conspiracy
15:56:44 <cpressey> (not boring; i'm just very yawn-contagious, and kind of tired)
15:56:59 <cpressey> and apparently not autistic, yes
15:57:02 <alise> i'm yawning now
15:57:07 <cpressey> under 4, i'm not so sure
15:57:20 <alise> "Clapping is an arousing activity, and increased arousal is
15:57:20 <alise> associated with diminished yawning (Provine, 2005)."
15:57:25 <alise> [claps in front of children]
15:57:29 <alise> [Society gasps]
15:57:55 <alise> I love the double-spacing
15:58:01 <alise> Feels like pain
15:58:02 <fizzie> Our university proxy gets that wiley.com PDF, at least.
15:58:37 <alise> Is it like a literal HTTP proxy?
15:59:21 <oerjan> very literal. no ability for metaphor at all.
15:59:28 <fizzie> It's a DNS hack; you just write ".libproxy.tkk.fi" after any hostname, log in on the login page, and it proxies stuff and rewrites links to include the added domain too.
15:59:46 <alise> Sweet.
15:59:55 <Gregor> Man, Purdue's proxy isn't anywhere near as pretty.
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16:00:11 <fizzie> There's a literal HTTP proxy too, but that needs a SSH pipe, so it's not so comfortable for one-shot "I want this article" spur-of-the-monent sort of things.
16:01:54 <Gregor> Maybe I don't have access because Purdue doesn't have a medical school X-P
16:02:18 <alise> fizzie: So is it based on libproxy.so HUR HUR
16:02:21 <fizzie> We don't exactly have a medical school either, though there's some related fields.
16:02:35 <alise> I mean literal as opposed to its own web interface where you kludge in a URL and it spits out a cached version of the paper.
16:02:41 <alise> (Or downloads one.)
16:03:02 <fizzie> Oh, right. Then they're both literal. But the latter way is just the usual Squid, available from inside the campus network.
16:03:27 <fizzie> Actually "any hostname" up there is a bit of a simplification; I think they return an error page for any domains not on the list of places they actually have some sort of licensing dealie with.
16:03:52 <alise> Presumably not SO literal, if it bypasses login pages.
16:03:55 <alise> Erm.
16:03:56 <alise> *SO usual,
16:04:11 <alise> fizzie: slashdot.org.libproxy.tkk.fi
16:04:21 <alise> Ha, they use Shibboleth
16:04:37 <fizzie> The "bypass login pages" is, I think, a property of the other end's IP-based authentications.
16:05:31 <Phantom_Hoover> What wacky antics are you lovable nerds up to now?
16:05:40 <fizzie> Yeah, http://slashdot.org.libproxy.tkk.fi/ redirects (at least if you've logged in) into a "Remote Access Menu - Aalto University Library, Otaniemi" and a list of 137 websites, presumably places where using the proxy will actually achieve something.
16:06:01 <alise> Aw. But what about Ann. /..?
16:06:21 <alise> The premier journal on the topic of wasting time nerdily.
16:07:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you trying to get at academic papers that you haven't paid to see?
16:07:24 <Phantom_Hoover> A noble cause, indeed.
16:07:53 <alise> fizzie is paying for it with his taxes :P
16:08:00 <alise> I just got it elsewhere.
16:08:23 <fizzie> alise: The Wiley pdf is a bit more nicely formatted, but content-wise it seems very much the same. Also, the topic made me yawn.
16:09:09 <alise> It's so BORING.
16:11:09 <fizzie> This list of places to remotely access is interesting, though; I don't think I've ever actually looked at it.
16:11:46 <alise> xxxhothotbarelyleganteenresearchmathematics.org
16:11:50 <alise> *legal
16:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, I missed my chance to throw condoms at the pope.
16:14:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, at least each second that goes by takes him a little further away from me.
16:14:27 <oerjan> you win some, you lose some?
16:14:53 <olsner> alise: of course I haven't!
16:15:26 <alise> olsner: PAH
16:15:36 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, there's still time for Operation Hatheist!
16:15:54 <oerjan> very well
16:16:01 <olsner> turns out I know very little about implementing haskell-esque languages
16:17:06 <oerjan> olsner: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/slpj-book-1987/
16:17:24 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, Haskelloid.
16:17:25 <oerjan> (no i haven't read it myself, but apparently it's a classic)
16:17:55 <alise> it's spj, doesn't it become a classic by default?
16:18:01 <oerjan> indeed
16:18:40 <alise> The Implementation of Functional Programming Languages. Prentice-Hall, 1987. ISBN 0-13-453333-X
16:18:40 <alise> Implementing Functional Languages, with David Lester. Prentice-Hall, 1992. ISBN 0-13-721952-0
16:18:41 <alise> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/pj-lester-book/
16:18:47 <alise> This book gives a practical approach to understanding implementations of non-strict functional languages using lazy graph reduction. The book is intended to be a source of practical labwork material, to help make functional-language implementations `come alive', by helping the reader to develop, modify and experiment with some non-trivial compilers.
16:18:48 <alise> The unusual aspect of the book is that it is meant to be executed as well as read. Rather than merely presenting an abstract description of each implementation technique, we present the code for a complete working prototype of each major method, and then work through a series of improvements to it. All of the code is available in machine-readable form.
16:18:50 <alise> seems like good reading too
16:18:51 <alise> also spj
16:18:58 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Simon_Peyton_Jones_01.jpg SP FUCKING J
16:19:04 <alise> He stares into your soul.
16:19:12 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAH
16:19:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sure I've seen him before...
16:19:29 <alise> AND HE CONTROLS IT
16:19:35 <alise> HE FEEDS UPON YOU, MORTAL...
16:19:40 <alise> ...AND HE TAKES YOUR LIFE AWAY
16:19:55 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Eleventh_Doctor.jpg → http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Simon_Peyton_Jones_01.jpg
16:19:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps this is what Gaiman has planned?
16:20:11 <alise> spj would make a good doctor
16:20:20 <alise> very lazy
16:20:24 <alise> though
16:21:13 <olsner> if doctor who actually existed, it would be like him take a break and just be SPJ for a few decades
16:21:48 <alise> *to take
16:22:01 <olsner> functional programming and time-travel do have many things in common, with all the non-temporal thinking involved
16:22:01 <alise> also, not under Tennant
16:22:23 <alise> "I MUST BE STRONG :|"
16:22:25 <olsner> alise: yes, I thought I had that word in there, must've missed it
16:22:38 <alise> olsner: you could get rid of the who and insert the to
16:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> RTD was just irritatingly soppy...
16:22:41 <alise> perfect sentence
16:22:46 <olsner> maybe I only corrected my self in thought
16:22:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But then Moffat turned crap on us.
16:23:00 <alise> jv
16:23:01 <alise> i
16:23:03 <alise> ...
16:23:07 <alise> *i've seen like three moffat episodes
16:23:10 <alise> and heard about the rest
16:23:16 <alise> and this is exactly what happens when a fanboy get si
16:23:20 <alise> *gets in charge :P
16:23:34 <alise> proliferation of canon! complete rethinking of EEEVERYTHIIING!
16:24:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Mhm.
16:24:05 <alise> also, [insert ludicrous love interest]
16:24:26 <olsner> iiuc, the doctor who series never bothered with canon or continuity in general
16:24:36 <alise> oh well yes but the fans take care of that ...
16:24:45 <alise> ... and by proliferation of canon i just mean
16:24:49 <alise> insufficient mythos!
16:24:54 <alise> MAKE MORE THINGS
16:24:57 <oerjan> so inserting canon into a series that has none? :D
16:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, he did write good episodes, just not good story arcs.
16:26:22 <alise> <alise> also, not under Tennant
16:26:25 <alise> i meant davies
16:26:26 <alise> of course
16:26:29 <alise> tennant was wonderful
16:27:01 * cpressey can't bear to watch anything past davison. sorry.
16:27:05 * cpressey goes back under his rock
16:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Davison sucked at writing but was all right at story arcs. Moffat is kind of the opposite.
16:27:58 <alise> are you sure he didn't mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Doctor
16:28:20 <alise> as far as i know he didn't do any writing...
16:28:23 <cpressey> yes you might want to consider cpressey's age when making inferences
16:28:31 <alise> i have no idea who Phantom_Hoover thinks davison is
16:28:38 <alise> cpressey: we don't /actually know/ your age, though
16:28:40 <alise> :P
16:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Davison, Davies, SAME DAMN FIRST SYLLABLE
16:29:17 <olsner> damned be the first syllable
16:29:21 <alise> the only thing anyone can agree about doctor who is that the theme music rocks
16:29:23 <alise> maybe not the latest one
16:29:29 <alise> it didn't need to turn techno
16:30:59 <Phantom_Hoover> So nothing can be agreed upon?
16:31:06 <alise> i mean the music itself
16:31:09 <alise> not the specific arrangement
16:31:23 <alise> http://whomix.windbubbles.net/
16:32:41 <alise> (http://whomix.windbubbles.net/remixes)
16:33:15 <oerjan> alise: he's either nearly 4 or nearly 40, recent evidence is ambiguous on this point
16:33:26 <alise> maybe the 0 was a typo
16:33:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I need RECOMMENDATIONS
16:34:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: buy low! sell high!
16:34:15 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: never eat yellow snow
16:34:24 <Phantom_Hoover> His first language was '93, so that helps date him.
16:34:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: #esoteric is not a dating site!
16:34:58 <Phantom_Hoover> And it was for his BBS, so he must have been in his late teens at the very least.
16:35:01 <cpressey> oerjan: i think these are more like 'advice' than 'recommendations' though
16:35:05 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, not even radiocarbon?
16:35:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You'd need an ELABORATE PLAN for getting the sample in that case.
16:35:38 <alise> whomix is so cool
16:35:44 <oerjan> cpressey: oh.
16:35:44 * Phantom_Hoover points the Device at cpressey.
16:35:46 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> His first language was '93, so that helps date him.
16:35:50 <alise> his first /popular esolang/
16:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, per his lingography.
16:35:59 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> And it was for his BBS, so he must have been in his late teens at the very least.
16:36:01 <alise> sure it was /his/ BBS?
16:36:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Gyaah, dammit.
16:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, he says "my BBS", which pronouns to "his BBS".
16:37:03 <oerjan> there you go verbing again
16:37:17 <alise> "my country", I don't own England
16:37:38 <olsner> but that still makes it "his country" when talking about alise in the third person
16:37:53 <cpressey> and to make matters worse I actually had two BBSes. not at the same time though.
16:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, damn it how old are you?
16:38:39 <alise> olsner: true, but.
16:38:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 47
16:38:48 <alise> I'd estimate
16:39:26 <alise> cpressey: Correct me, dammit!
16:39:28 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: teenager in 1993 should suffice for any estimate
16:39:54 <cpressey> Therefore, "Davison" refers to the 5th doctor, yes.
16:40:02 <olsner> then you'd be at most 13 years older than me
16:41:06 <alise> and -13 years older than oerjan
16:41:45 <olsner> woah, how old is oerjan then?
16:42:06 * oerjan waves his cane at olsner
16:42:20 <alise> 574
16:42:23 <oerjan> YKGOML
16:42:40 <Phantom_Hoover> FORTY-SOMETHING
16:42:51 <alise> so cpressey is between 30 and 36
16:42:56 <alise> more likely on the side of 36
16:43:03 <alise> also i am behind him right now with a knife
16:43:19 <cpressey> that would be impressive
16:43:35 <oerjan> depends how far behind
16:44:00 <cpressey> hm, well, i *am* facing wsw
16:44:00 <oerjan> i mean _technically_ if you're currently facing westward...
16:44:14 <oerjan> :D
16:44:51 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I am behind you, sans knife.
16:45:46 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I'm behind you, you can have my spare knife if you want
16:45:53 <cpressey> I'm in a swivelly chair. I could just spin and in the space of a few seconds everyone on this channel will have been behind me at some time today.
16:46:41 <cpressey> but my earbud cord, plugged into my desktop, would strangle me
16:46:49 <cpressey> anyway
16:46:55 <cpressey> back to unit tests!
16:47:00 <cpressey> lovely, lovely unit tests
16:47:02 <olsner> we can't allow that! our knives are useless if you're already dead!
16:49:19 -!- quintipod has joined.
16:49:20 <oerjan> cpressey: you're forgetting the antipodes!
16:49:41 <quintipod> Ohai
16:49:44 <oerjan> of course you just need to lay down a bit
16:49:49 <oerjan> *lie
16:50:27 <oerjan> quintipod: hello
16:50:29 <quintipod> Man I didn't know an esoteric PL chan existed. Just randomly found it...
16:50:47 <Phantom_Hoover> quintipod, welcome to the legion on the dam!
16:50:57 <quintipod> Hello. I'm quintopia on the esolang wiki if that rings anyone's bell
16:52:17 <oerjan> quintipod: wait you never read the Community page before? ;D
16:52:21 <quintipod> I recognize oerjan
16:52:29 <quintipod> No not really
16:52:50 <Phantom_Hoover> quintipod, everyone recognises oerjan!
16:52:55 <Phantom_Hoover> He's so lovable!
16:53:02 <quintipod> Mostly just surf the recent changes page
16:53:04 * oerjan puts on a mustache and goggles
16:53:07 <fizzie> oerjan is a very recognizable shape.
16:53:08 <oerjan> NO YOU DON'T
16:53:09 <olsner> I wonder how I found this channel
16:53:33 <olsner> I do know I found it *twice* though, and managed to completely forget about it in between
16:53:40 <oerjan> quintipod: well me too
16:53:42 <quintipod> I saw it in the channel list searching for the kubuntu netbook channel whose name i can't remember
16:54:00 <fizzie> I found it via the mailing list, as did I guess some others.
16:54:40 <quintipod> Mailing list? That at all interesting?
16:55:09 <fizzie> It's muchos dead now.
16:55:31 <fizzie> The one that was on (at least) sange.fi, or whatever.
16:56:05 <oerjan> back in '02, it was all the rage
16:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Darths & Droids is really drifting from the SW canon.
16:56:56 <alise> "Flash Player to support 64-bit for all major desktop operating systems including Linux"
16:57:00 <alise> Fina-fucking-
16:57:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: "is drifting"? you seem to think it was ever close...
16:57:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It's drifting MORE AWESOMELY
16:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the lack of Jar-Jar saddens me.
16:58:11 <olsner> alise: is that announced before or after they completely dropped 64-bit support+
16:58:23 <alise> olsner: i hope after, or reddit is going to be stabbed
16:58:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: btw the valorum link was predicted before on the forums. although the comic _did_ leave some huge hints back then
16:58:34 <alise> http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplayer/2010/09/flash-player-square.html
16:58:35 <alise> after
16:58:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Did it?
16:58:38 <alise> good
16:58:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I want EVIDENCE
16:58:46 <Phantom_Hoover> And SCIENCE!
16:59:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: just look carefully at valorum's deranged speech in the senate, his obsession with cyborgs in particular
16:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there was that...
16:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> My god what is the original trilogy going to be like.
17:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> The Comic Irregulars are clearly evil masterminds trying to take over the world!
17:00:36 <quintipod> Using comic sans?
17:00:37 <oerjan> indeed
17:00:51 <oerjan> er that was not to quintipod
17:01:05 * oerjan is blessed with the inability to notice fonts
17:01:15 <cpressey> quintipod: as you can see we talk about nothing except esolangs here
17:01:17 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> My god what is the original trilogy going to be like. ;; maybe it'll diverge completely
17:01:20 <oerjan> well without trying, anyway
17:01:22 <alise> (note: i don't follow the comic)
17:01:29 <Phantom_Hoover> And Mezzacotta is obviously their evil supercomputer!
17:01:33 <oerjan> alise: YOUR LOSS
17:01:38 <cpressey> this is all about an elaborate esolang based on a star wars comic
17:01:39 <olsner> oerjan: when in doubt, use Comic Sans
17:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, YOU HAVE NO TASTE
17:01:56 <alise> oerjan: Phantom_Hoover: well i am just starting to read it right now :P
17:01:58 <quintipod> That is a blessing indeed oerjan. They are heart-piercingly many occurrences of papyrus everywhere these days
17:02:07 <alise> *There
17:02:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Clearly the baking system trains it to overthrow its human masters.
17:02:13 <alise> And yeah, fucking Egyptians.
17:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> WE HAVE BEEN FEEDING IT
17:02:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, if I tell you who invented Papyrus, will you murder him painfully?
17:02:44 <quintipod> Cpressey: s/nothing/everything/
17:02:45 <alise> "The Force is an energy field—" "Energy? But energy is force times distance." "And 'power of the force' would be distance times the derivative with respect to time."
17:02:46 <alise> /groan
17:02:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Probably. Even Comic Sans MS has justificationl.
17:02:57 <alise> *justification.
17:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Papyrus is one of those novelty fonts that irritating, tasteless fools with pretensions towards graphic design keep on using because they think it makes them stand out.
17:04:03 <Phantom_Hoover> That's not really the designer's fault.
17:04:21 <quintipod> I've seen exactly one good use of it in a logo
17:04:23 <alise> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=07052007
17:04:30 <alise> s/Comic Sans/Papyrus/
17:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Comic Sans is unforgivable, I'm afraid.
17:06:05 <quintipod> Well, I think it can be forgiven when used /in comics/
17:06:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Papyrus was just like all of the other things intended harmless wihc went horribly wrong.
17:06:13 <Phantom_Hoover> quintipod, NEVEr
17:06:23 <quintipod> But only really funny ones
17:06:24 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the baking system is rather broken because the hall of fame has a quorum threshold that is much higher than the number of people actually voting
17:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Comic Sans is the Cardinal Sin of typography.
17:06:34 <oerjan> it wasn't so initially of course
17:06:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:06:49 -!- tombom has joined.
17:06:52 <oerjan> although occasionally a batch still trickle through
17:07:13 <quintipod> Phantom_Hoover: I want a shirt that says that. In comic sans?
17:07:37 <Phantom_Hoover> quintipod, then find someone who makes shirts!
17:07:57 <quintipod> Would making it in comic sans be too ironic to be ironic?
17:08:05 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Comic Sans is the Cardinal Sin of typography.
17:08:05 <alise> ehh
17:08:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It would be stupidly obvious irony.
17:08:11 <alise> in comicy stuff it's ok
17:08:13 <alise> just not very good
17:08:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I twitch when I think of it now...
17:08:30 <quintipod> What about in papyrus?
17:08:38 <alise> heh
17:08:38 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, any nice monospace fonts yet?
17:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover> quintipod, better.
17:08:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Erm... Luxi Mono is nice. Emacs renders it badly (too bold).
17:08:54 <alise> Well, freetype.
17:08:58 <alise> Emacs may be partially culpable.
17:09:09 <alise> Monaco on Linux lacks bold, damn fondu. Otherwise it's nice.
17:09:14 <alise> Might be a different file, actually. One I don't have.
17:09:28 <alise> Droid Sans Mono is... very close to DejaVu.
17:09:42 <alise> (So is Menlo, barely-modified from Bitstream, which DejaVu extends.)
17:10:00 <alise> http://www.leancrew.com/all-this/images/dejavu-menlo-colors.png How they differ.
17:10:26 <alise> Myself, well...
17:10:26 <fizzie> I do Droid Sans Mono on the phone, even though it's not a Droid.
17:10:28 <alise> (custom-set-faces
17:10:28 <alise> '(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :height 105)))))
17:10:28 <alise> (setq-default line-spacing 0.125)
17:10:41 <alise> fizzie: Droid * are just Android
17:10:47 <alise> it's the Droid that co-opted the name for its phone model
17:10:49 <fizzie> Well, it's not Android either.
17:10:56 <alise> Droid is a font family created by Ascender Corporation for use by the Open Handset Alliance platform Android[1] and licensed under the Apache license. The fonts are intended for use on the small screens of mobile handsets and were designed by Steve Matteson of Ascender Corporation. The name was derived from the Open Handset Alliance platform name Android.
17:11:09 <fizzie> (The phone, I mean; the fonts of course are.)
17:11:11 <alise> fizzie: Many Linux users use Droid Sans as an OS font.
17:11:20 <alise> Especially Ubuntuers.
17:11:25 <Vorpal> Deewiant, heads up on efunge: to make it compile with last version of erlang (released yesterday) an unintended side effect is that the trunk and supervisor-tree heads no longer compiles on older versions.
17:11:42 <alise> Hmm, or perhaps Menlo is based on DejaVu.
17:11:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Ubuntuers are not the brightest bunch, by and large.
17:11:49 <alise> Vorpal: ...
17:11:55 <quintipod> Where can I get it?
17:12:02 <alise> "I just broke this program for everybody who hasn't manually installed Erlang (or perhaps uses Arch or Gentoo) since yesterday."
17:12:06 <fizzie> alise: I would've thought it had some sort of inherent phoneyness designed by science of bubbly liquids, so that it only works properly in a mobile device.
17:12:14 <Vorpal> alise, my fault for using a somewhat experimental feature that changed syntax slightly
17:12:17 <alise> fizzie: Yes. But no!
17:12:24 <Vorpal> alise, anyway arch doesn't have the new version yet
17:12:26 <alise> Vorpal: Still :P
17:12:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, indeed. There are some very bright Ubuntuers, though.
17:12:40 <alise> I'd like to think I'm among them.
17:12:44 <alise> Droid Sans /is/ nice as an OS font.
17:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I would also like to think the same.
17:12:56 <alise> I just don't have any preference for it over DejaVu, so I stick with the default.
17:13:04 <alise> *Ubuntuers too, though.
17:13:26 <Vorpal> alise, and um, it stopped working for me. As I upgraded. I was aware of this issue due to testing beta version before. Didn't change the code then of course.
17:13:39 <quintipod> So alise is the resident wording corrector. Got it
17:13:47 <Vorpal> bbl
17:14:00 <alise> quintipod: I corrected my own lines there.
17:14:16 <alise> I tend to be a bit anal about that. I don't like myself for doing it.
17:14:52 <quintipod> Well, Your setence made since with or without the too, so it seemed rather anal to want to add it in
17:15:17 <alise> "Ubuntuers are not the brightest bunch [...]." "There are some very bright Ubuntuers, though."
17:15:28 <fizzie> Is there not a better noun for a Ubuntu user, though? Ubuntists? Ubuntites? Ubunopods? Ubuttantes?
17:15:29 <alise> It seems to flow a bit better with the "too".
17:15:48 <quintipod> fizzie: :D
17:15:48 <alise> quintipod: Would saying "*Well, your" right now be hilariously ironic or just irritating?
17:15:53 <alise> fizzie: Ubuntodes
17:15:55 <alise> Ubuntopodes
17:16:00 <alise> *Ubuntupodes
17:16:10 <quintipod> alise, i'd lol
17:16:19 <alise> Quadrescence: *Well, your *I'd
17:16:35 <alise> Technically I don't care about not using capitalisation since I omit it regularly. :P
17:16:42 <oerjan> quintipod: _everyone_ here is a resident wording corrector
17:16:45 <alise> But officially I have to correct.
17:16:49 <quintipod> I omit capitalization intentionally
17:16:55 <alise> Quadrescence: Was "Your" intentional?
17:16:59 <alise> Also, oerjan is the resident punner.
17:17:01 <quintipod> And punctuation where its unambiguous
17:17:02 <cpressey> i AM capitalization
17:17:04 <alise> Nobody else may pun. Unless it's actually god.
17:17:05 <alise> *good.
17:17:08 <alise> In which case, it is permissable.
17:17:14 <alise> oerjan has a state-sanctioned monopoly on bad puns.
17:17:19 <oerjan> alise: wait, what
17:17:26 <alise> oerjan: what?
17:17:26 * oerjan swats alise -----###
17:17:28 <alise> ow
17:17:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what is that thing again?
17:18:01 <quintipod> alise: also please stop calling me Quadrescence
17:18:15 <alise> Oops. Now I've pinged the beast...
17:18:25 -!- alise has left (?).
17:18:27 -!- alise has joined.
17:18:28 <alise> -- oops
17:18:33 <alise> -- I was being oh so careful, too.
17:18:44 <quintipod> Or not
17:19:12 <quintipod> alise: you forgot to correct my "since" to "sense" above
17:19:19 <alise> *sense
17:19:22 <alise> No I didn't.
17:19:23 <quintipod> Thx
17:19:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, just switch XChat's completion settings.
17:19:35 <alise> *THX sound systems
17:19:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It's much nicer with last-spoke.
17:19:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Good idea.
17:20:04 <alise> I'll also set up a word-replace of he-who-cannot-be-named to quintipod, on the assumption that the latter will hopefully be around more than the former.
17:20:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: a fly swatter
17:20:14 <alise> Actually, naw.
17:20:16 <alise> quintipod: I think I've even corrected logs I was reading, too.
17:20:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what's wrong with Q**dr*sc*nc*?
17:20:33 <alise> (Log-reading is a favourite past-time of the hopelessly destroyed here: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D)
17:20:41 <alise> (Pick one. Preferably a big one. You may wish to order by size.)
17:20:59 <cpressey> big ones have more in them
17:21:16 <quintipod> But they are tl;dr
17:23:05 <alise> quintipod: you'd be surprised how quick the time goes
17:23:25 <alise> hmm i should plot the size of the logs, that'd be interesting, to see what distribution it follows
17:23:29 <alise> plot them after sorting, that is
17:24:06 <oerjan> ^ul ((Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!:aS):^
17:24:07 <fungot> ((Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!:aS)
17:24:08 <Vorpal> alise, btw, wrt efunge, I don't see the problem since it had not yet had a stable release. Though trunk could I think.
17:24:11 <oerjan> dammit
17:24:17 <alise> 2009-05-28: the day of bf joust
17:24:26 <alise> quintipod:
17:24:28 <alise> ^source
17:24:28 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:24:33 <oerjan> ^ul ((Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!S(:^)aS):^
17:24:33 <fungot> (Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!S(:^)aS(:^)
17:24:34 <alise> fungot: Tell us about how you're written in Befunge-98.
17:24:34 <fungot> alise: enter fluellen and gower.
17:24:37 <alise> ^style
17:24:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss* wp youtube
17:24:39 <alise> ^style irc
17:24:39 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
17:24:41 <alise> fungot: Tell us about how you're written in Befunge-98.
17:24:41 <fungot> alise: by fnord, which guarantees practically infinite energy for free
17:24:49 <alise> quintipod: http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 is the code.
17:24:50 <fungot> alise: so, let's say i call the time spent in those discussions. having been involved in a large program?
17:24:53 <Vorpal> <alise> plot them after sorting, that is <-- sorting by date or sorting by size?
17:24:55 <oerjan> ...i'm just not doing this right
17:25:06 <alise> Also, it's generating those lines from a Markov chain-type dealie. In Befunge.
17:25:07 <alise> Vorpal: size
17:25:11 <alise> to look at the curve
17:25:42 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:25:44 <oerjan> ^ul ((Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!a(:^)*S):^
17:25:45 <fungot> ((Time for newbie bot demonstrations)!a(:^)*S):^
17:25:53 <Vorpal> alise, ah. the other could be interesting too. If you use an averaging function with a window you could use it to find the activity over the year
17:25:54 <oerjan> finally
17:25:58 <alise> Vorpal: indeed
17:26:12 <Vorpal> or over years I guess
17:26:34 <alise> Vorpal: i did unicode-plot (with the block characters) various lengths (it squishes the data by calculating the mean of successive values) of charts of sizes
17:26:35 <alise> over time
17:26:38 <alise> and it basically just got bigger
17:26:46 <Vorpal> hm
17:26:48 <alise> basically activity has never dropped significantly in our history
17:26:57 <alise> and lament has been saying we're dying at every point in that climb :)
17:27:21 <Vorpal> alise, I seem to remember that there is some seasonal variation though
17:27:29 <Vorpal> as well as weekday variation
17:27:31 <Vorpal> bbl phone
17:28:11 <oerjan> fear the bible phone
17:29:28 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test8.png -- I think this was some sort of a long-term activity plot, though it doesn't got any axis labels in it. And it's outdated now. I'll see if I can manage to get some new plots going.
17:29:56 <fizzie> (Also the zero-activity periods are times when I've been elsewhere; these are from my personal logs, not clog logs.)
17:30:20 <alise> i want a css-selector thing combined with grep/awk on the commandline
17:30:20 <alise> like
17:30:33 <alise> $ scrape http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=S;O=D 'td[align=right]'
17:30:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
17:30:36 <alise> and it'd spit out all the sizes
17:30:44 <alise> well i don't need the grep/awk thing i guess that can be a separate element of the pipe
17:31:22 <alise> curl http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=S;O=D | sed 's!.*<td align="right">\(.*\)</td></tr>!\1!'
17:31:24 <alise> why the heck doesn't this work?
17:31:29 <alise> oh great
17:31:31 <alise> they're all one one line
17:32:02 <quintipod> I shall add this thing to autojoin when I bother to log in from an actual computer. Right now, it's definitely naptiem.
17:32:15 -!- quintipod has quit (Quit: Busy busy busy).
17:33:10 <Vorpal> back
17:36:19 -!- augur has joined.
17:46:40 <alise> "Deprecated since version 2.7: The optparse module is deprecated and will not be developed further; development will continue with the argparse module."
17:46:41 <alise> x_x
17:46:54 <alise> Fuck that shit, I'm on 2.6.
17:47:28 <alise> Actually, wait, I don't even want it.
17:49:04 <olsner> alise: and optparse was (iirc) introduced in 2.6 deprecating the one they had in 2.5
17:50:11 <olsner> it's not like they got it right first, or at least wrong only once... noooo no, thinking and python obviously don't go that well together
17:52:03 <alise> optparse is 2.3
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17:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> According to the Pope, the UK is a 3rd world country!
17:56:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Woo!
17:57:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose that means we're neither in NATO nor the Warsaw pact.
18:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I want to punch these people so hard right now.
18:08:13 <Vorpal> gah, the university proxy for databases is slow today...
18:08:20 <Vorpal> takes ages to load anything from ACM
18:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "There's a broader point here. Why the big push for black holes by liberals, and big protests against any objection to them? If it turned out empirically that promoting black holes tends to cause people to read the Bible less, would you still push this so much?" — Andrew Schlafly, teacher of children.
18:09:06 <alise> xD
18:10:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is so much nonsense that I can't even figure out what he is arguing for.
18:10:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, black holes are a LIE-BERAL CONSPIRACY
18:10:33 <Phantom_Hoover> AS IS RELATIVITY
18:10:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, who is he talking to then
18:10:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Invented by a damn German, as we all know!
18:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, some moderately sane person, presumably.
18:11:05 <Vorpal> ah
18:11:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Who is telling him that he's a complete idiot.
18:11:25 <Vorpal> and he is
18:12:39 <alise> scrape(1) is now functioning quite well!
18:12:50 <Vorpal> alise, what does it do?
18:12:53 <alise> $ scrape 'http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=S;O=D' -text 'td[align=right]:nth-child(even)'
18:12:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Scrapes things!
18:13:09 <alise> Vorpal: Selects elements from webpages and outputs them in various forms, using either CSS selectors or XPath.
18:13:49 <alise> Various switches control the behaviour of the next selector: -content elides the opening and closing tags of your selection, -text flattens it into a markupless text format, and -xpath interprets the next selector as XPath, not CSS.
18:13:57 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
18:13:59 <Vorpal> ah
18:14:07 <Vorpal> alise, xpath is quite "eugh" IMO
18:14:16 <alise> which is why css is the default :)
18:14:16 <cpressey> XPATH RAWKS
18:14:19 <Vorpal> alise, hah
18:14:48 <alise> tail -n +1 doesn't work...
18:14:53 <alise> what am i forgetting...
18:14:55 -!- Flonk has joined.
18:15:02 <Vorpal> alise, +1?
18:15:08 <alise> yeah
18:15:08 <Vorpal> alise, why the + there
18:15:09 <alise> "drop first line"
18:15:10 <alise> If the first character of N (the number of bytes or lines) is a `+',
18:15:10 <alise> print beginning with the Nth item from the start of each file, other‐
18:15:10 <alise> wise, print the last N items in the file. N may have a multiplier suf‐
18:15:10 <alise> fix: b 512, kB 1000, K 1024, MB 1000*1000, M 1024*1024, GB
18:15:10 <alise> 1000*1000*1000, G 1024*1024*1024, and so on for T, P, E, Z, Y.
18:15:11 -!- FireFly has joined.
18:15:13 <Vorpal> alise, hm
18:15:16 <alise> i did that!
18:15:23 <alise> oh wait
18:15:26 <alise> perhaps it has to be +2
18:15:26 <alise> yeah
18:15:44 <Vorpal> alise, why does it have to be +2 ?
18:15:53 <alise> [[sed 's/K/*1024/']]
18:16:02 <alise> Vorpal: to start with line 2
18:16:04 <alise> i.e. drop the first line
18:16:15 <alise> (which is /another/ evenly-numbered right-aligned td in this case)
18:16:27 <Vorpal> alise, <alise> [[sed 's/K/*1024/']] <-- ?
18:16:33 <alise> Vorpal: for parsing filenames :)
18:16:38 <alise> erm
18:16:39 <alise> i mean
18:16:40 <alise> filesizes
18:16:46 <Vorpal> um okay
18:16:50 <alise> what :)
18:16:57 <alise> it has byte ones like
18:16:57 <alise> 86
18:16:59 <alise> and k ones like
18:17:00 <alise> 108K
18:17:04 <Vorpal> right
18:17:05 <alise> and i'm trying to plot them, so...
18:17:11 <Vorpal> alise, which commands give you that
18:17:18 <Vorpal> alise, oh website?
18:17:23 <Vorpal> right
18:18:32 <alise> 1126.4
18:18:33 <alise> wat
18:18:38 <alise> how did decimals get in there
18:18:45 <Vorpal> alise, in the source or?
18:18:53 <alise> ohh
18:18:54 <alise> "1.8K"
18:19:02 <Vorpal> alise, it is of course rounded
18:19:09 <Vorpal> alise, just du -b the files locally
18:19:14 <alise> 1.8*1024 -> 1843.2
18:19:16 <Vorpal> for more exact measurement
18:19:17 <alise> Vorpal: well that's the OBVIOUS thing
18:19:23 <alise> but this is an excuse to write scrape
18:19:26 <alise> but yeah touche just thought of that
18:19:29 <alise> now i'll go do that
18:19:29 <alise> >_>
18:19:33 <alise> also, no, not du
18:19:38 <alise> du takes filesystem shit into account
18:19:40 <alise> wc -c beyotch
18:19:44 <Vorpal> alise, not du -b
18:19:47 <alise> well ok
18:19:50 <Vorpal> though, -b is probably GNU
18:19:52 <alise> but wc is nice
18:20:01 <Vorpal> yeah -b is gnu
18:20:30 <alise> head -n -1 is useful too
18:20:31 <alise> btw
18:20:32 <alise> to drop last line
18:20:35 <Vorpal> indeed
18:20:36 <alise> e.g. total line of wc
18:20:56 <Vorpal> alise, you could plot on number of lines per day as well. And probably average length for each day
18:21:05 <Vorpal> have our average lengths gotten shorter or longer?
18:21:10 <Vorpal> Or stayed pretty much the same?
18:21:13 <alise> longer obviously
18:21:16 <alise> since i plotted a compressed graph
18:21:18 <alise> and it just goes up and up
18:21:24 <alise> (with only 8 graph characters admittedly
18:21:27 <alise> s/$/)/
18:21:29 <Vorpal> alise, that could be due to more lines
18:21:31 <alise> and i think there were one or two very slight drops
18:21:32 <Vorpal> rather than longer lines
18:21:35 <alise> oh
18:21:40 <alise> maybe, i doubt it though
18:21:40 <cpressey> and we just keep talking and talking
18:21:46 <Vorpal> cpressey, and that too
18:21:47 <cpressey> not really saying anything
18:21:50 <Vorpal> :P
18:21:57 <cpressey> just talking
18:21:58 <cpressey> you know
18:22:00 <cpressey> talking
18:22:02 <cpressey> ...
18:22:03 <cpressey> hi!
18:22:12 <Vorpal> alise, what about seasonal variation?
18:23:14 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I recommend seasonal variation.
18:23:19 <alise> Vorpal: hey how do you plot a list of numbers from stdin with gnuplot again :D
18:23:30 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, in what?
18:23:43 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: in unchanging things.
18:23:51 <Vorpal> alise, I ask fizzie :P
18:24:11 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, like c?
18:24:15 <Vorpal> alise, besides in my case I had it in a file, and just loaded that
18:24:32 <alise> Vorpal: what did you do? I'll just replace it with /dev/stdin
18:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, that was one of the predictions of the æther theory, so...
18:24:44 <Vorpal> alise, that had multiple time series and such though
18:24:50 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: yes. seasonal variation in the error messages produced by its compilers. yes. i'd advocate that
18:24:53 <Vorpal> alise, let me dig it up
18:25:25 <alise> cpressey: SON OF UNBABTIZED
18:25:30 <Vorpal> plot 'data-avg.txt' using 1:2 title "Real", 'data-avg.txt' using 1:3 title "User", 'data-avg.txt' using 1:4 title "Sys"
18:25:31 <Vorpal> alise, ^
18:25:44 <cpressey> alise: <3 Gerson
18:25:52 <fizzie> There's a special datafile "-" which means "data follows this plot command", if you want to pipe both the plotting command and data to gnuplot using the same pipe.
18:26:07 <Vorpal> alise, plus some stuff before like "set title" and "set style"
18:26:17 <Vorpal> and set output
18:26:18 <fizzie> Then you end with a line that starts with "e"; it's pretty arbitrary.
18:26:22 <Vorpal> and um set term
18:26:51 <alise> plot "sizes" plots it as a scatter
18:26:54 <alise> not terribly helpful
18:27:00 <Vorpal> set style data linespoints
18:27:01 <Vorpal> alise, ^
18:27:06 <Vorpal> alise, try to run that before
18:27:16 <fizzie> You can stick the style in the plot command, too: "with linespoints".
18:27:20 <alise> that's hideously ugly, how can i get a single joined line?
18:27:21 <Vorpal> or that yes
18:27:26 <fizzie> Just "lines", then.
18:27:36 <alise> it's so raggedy :(
18:27:38 <alise> also, wut
18:27:41 <alise> there's one that shoots right up
18:27:41 <Vorpal> alise, yeah with that many datapoints it won't look good.
18:27:43 <alise> but i have them sort-
18:27:44 <alise> oh of cours
18:27:45 <alise> e
18:27:48 <alise> i don't have them sorted :)
18:27:56 <Vorpal> haha
18:27:56 <alise> Vorpal: can it automatically average a bit?
18:28:05 <Vorpal> alise, for a single x value yes
18:28:08 <fizzie> It can do spline smoothing if you want.
18:28:14 <Vorpal> that too?
18:28:22 <alise> Okay, it is now more reasonable.
18:28:38 <alise> Time to figure out what curve it is.
18:28:53 <alise> Looks like long tail.
18:28:58 <alise> With a not-terribly-high peak.
18:29:07 <cpressey> sine
18:29:20 <alise> it's sorted
18:29:23 <alise> sine is unlikely
18:29:26 <Vorpal> cpressey, if I got a sine curve after *sorting* data I would be worried
18:29:27 <cpressey> :(
18:29:28 <fizzie> You can add "smooth csplines/acsplines/bezier/sbezier" for different sorts of curve-fit-smoothing.
18:29:31 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, for a single x value yes
18:29:31 <alise> <fizzie> It can do spline smoothing if you want.
18:29:34 <alise> single x value; how?
18:29:58 <alise> fizzie: any options to tweak for those?
18:29:59 <Vorpal> alise, I forgot, since I needed the line points thingy and the smoothing didn't work with that style
18:30:01 <fizzie> The "single x value" was "average many entries for a single x value"; for that you just specify "unique" in the plot.
18:30:07 <Vorpal> so I ended up not using it
18:30:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, "with smoothing unique" or such iirc?
18:30:28 <alise> fizzie: erm, any way to set how many to average at a time?
18:30:36 <alise> ^
18:30:36 <alise> Can't calculate approximation splines, all weights have to be > 0
18:30:38 <alise> well fuck you :|
18:30:58 <Vorpal> alise, you forgot to give weights I presume?
18:31:01 <fizzie> alise: For "unique", it will always average all that have the same X value, you can't tweak that.
18:31:09 <alise> fizzie: Okay.
18:31:28 <alise> fizzie: No change.
18:31:44 <fizzie> Do you have points with the same X value there, then?
18:32:12 <alise> dunno :P
18:32:16 <alise> i guess not
18:32:23 <alise> it's just a plaintext file with a bunch of numbers
18:32:25 <Vorpal> then you need some other smoothing function
18:32:32 <alise> the size distribution is kind of fun
18:32:40 <Vorpal> alise, can you upload that image somewhere
18:32:44 <Vorpal> set term svg
18:32:46 <alise> Vorpal: which one
18:32:48 <Vorpal> set output "foo.svg"
18:32:49 <alise> also, not svg :P
18:32:56 <Vorpal> alise, well same works for png iirc
18:32:59 <Vorpal> but why not svg?
18:33:10 <alise> 1st = 1.7 * 2nd. then a bunch of almost equal ones
18:33:18 <fizzie> For general sort of averaging, you might be able to round the X values to particular steps with a suitable "using" spec, and then run "unique" on it.
18:33:20 <alise> then a steady decline from 200s into 100s
18:33:22 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I meant the size distribution
18:33:25 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm adapting those old testN.png log-activity plot scripts to my current "logs in a database" scheme; soon we'll get those updated too.
18:33:34 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:33:42 <alise> actually it's pretty much a steady decline all the way through
18:33:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, which db engine?
18:33:55 <alise> 129 -> 86 though
18:33:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: PostgreSQL, since I had that installed anyway.
18:34:01 <Vorpal> alise, for the activity? Or what?
18:34:02 <alise> because of these two lines
18:34:02 <alise> 07:04:30 <ZeroOne> hi
18:34:02 <alise> 17:53:19 <lament> hi
18:34:08 <alise> if only someone with the nick "a" just said "a" on one day
18:34:25 <alise> that'd be 15-16 added bytes instead
18:34:30 <alise> Vorpal: for file size
18:34:32 <alise> when ordered by size
18:34:38 <Vorpal> alise, ah
18:34:40 <alise> i.e. there's no particular distribution
18:34:45 <alise> 100s are the most common
18:34:50 <alise> only one above 250 or so
18:34:54 <alise> and then it's just a steady decline
18:34:55 <Vorpal> alise, in bytes!?
18:34:57 <Vorpal> or what?
18:35:06 <alise> kilos
18:35:09 <alise> (in weight in paper)
18:35:09 <Vorpal> alise, ah
18:35:14 <alise> *on paper
18:35:16 <Vorpal> alise, which one was above 250?
18:35:21 <Vorpal> alise, one with spam or such?
18:35:26 <alise> the bf joustfest
18:35:31 <Vorpal> ah
18:35:38 <alise> 2009-05-28
18:35:40 <alise> 417K log
18:35:47 <alise> second-top is 250K
18:35:52 <Vorpal> and that one is?
18:35:56 <alise> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=S;O=D
18:36:50 <fizzie> "Use of uninitialized value in subroutine entry at ./log-activity.pl line 211." Hmm.
18:36:55 -!- alise has left (?).
18:36:58 -!- alise has joined.
18:37:00 <alise> whoops
18:37:25 <Vorpal> alise, hm, can't you lock a channel in your client
18:37:33 <Vorpal> as a "no part unless I first unlock it"
18:37:43 <alise> 03:14:52 <GregorR> WTF COMMERCIAL!! Why is there a commercial for Emerald Nuts that implies a grizzly death of the three main characters shortly after the commercial ends >_<
18:37:46 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UQxN5HW1PU
18:37:53 <alise> Vorpal: i just keep hitting part by mistake
18:37:55 <alise> and probably not
18:37:56 <alise> i don't really care
18:38:06 <Vorpal> alise, part is a button?
18:38:10 <Vorpal> or a key binding?
18:38:12 <alise> at the right of the tablist...
18:38:14 <alise> and also Ctrl+W
18:38:16 <Vorpal> hm
18:38:17 <alise> and also /part
18:38:21 <alise> this is just xchat
18:38:26 <Vorpal> alise, well /part is not so easy to do by mistake
18:38:27 <alise> in tabs mode
18:38:53 <Vorpal> alise, ^W might be
18:38:53 <alise> http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/chess/
18:38:57 <alise> from the second-highest log
18:39:00 <alise> by mtve
18:39:05 <alise> befunge-93 chess program with AI
18:39:10 <cpressey> !_!
18:39:15 <alise> no castling or en passant, you can cheat, no checkmate processing
18:39:20 <alise> hangs on stalemate
18:39:22 <alise> and the AI sucks
18:39:23 <alise> but still
18:39:30 <alise> it's chess-with-AI in befunge-93
18:39:33 <alise> pretty awesome
18:39:34 <Vorpal> <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UQxN5HW1PU <-- safe for mind and so on?
18:39:42 <alise> Vorpal: yes
18:39:45 <alise> and work
18:39:53 <alise> boursin is a soft cheese
18:39:55 <alise> if you didn't know
18:40:07 <Vorpal> cpressey, why did you go !_! at that?
18:40:08 <Vorpal> :P
18:40:19 <Vorpal> alise, I can't say I knew that, no
18:40:31 <Vorpal> alise, but primarily I meant ads can be bloody strange
18:40:40 <alise> it's just hilarious
18:40:46 <Vorpal> alise, I'm not sure I consider that VW "pimp your ride" safe for mind for example
18:40:54 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test10.png -- okay, here's average per-week activity (measured in line counts), plotted with a starting time step of one day/pixel, from 2003-01-01 to 2010-08-31, with the top 8 noisiest people highlighted. I should probably map some nick-changes away from that.
18:41:21 <cpressey> Vorpal: <3 mtve
18:41:28 <alise> ehird->alise, definitely
18:41:32 <fizzie> There's the ehird/alise/tusho trinity, and AnMaster.
18:41:36 <alise> oh yeah tusho too
18:41:44 <alise> ha ha vorpal isn't even on it
18:41:55 <alise> ehird, alise, tusho: the father, the spirit and the holy ghost
18:42:21 <alise> fizzie: pikhq/oklopol too
18:42:22 <Vorpal> <fizzie> There's the ehird/alise/tusho trinity, and AnMaster. <-- should be merged into Vorpal
18:42:29 <alise> Vorpal: what, all of them? :D
18:42:45 <Vorpal> alise, yes of course. I will assimilate you all!
18:42:46 <alise> We are Borg. Resistance is futile.
18:42:49 <cpressey> and tusho is who?
18:42:52 <alise> typed it before you did
18:42:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, I'm replotting it with ehird → alise, tusho → alise, AnMaster → Vorpal mappings.
18:42:53 <alise> so nyah
18:42:54 <alise> cpressey: me
18:42:54 <Vorpal> alise, hah beat you to it
18:42:59 <Vorpal> alise, I sent it before you did
18:43:03 <alise> Vorpal: i was typing it when your message arrived
18:43:03 <Vorpal> by 4 second margin
18:43:04 <alise> so nyah
18:43:13 <alise> it's merely a hivemind incident
18:43:22 <Vorpal> alise, you think I typed it after I send it!?
18:43:29 <Vorpal> that would be a good trick
18:43:33 <alise> i was typing mine when yours arrived
18:43:37 <cpressey> what accts for the big spike? seems like there might have been a talkative other
18:43:55 <alise> cpressey: bf joust
18:43:57 <alise> like i said
18:43:58 <Vorpal> alise, implying that I typed it before, since obviously I couldn't type it after I sent it
18:43:59 <alise> oh in test10?
18:44:03 <fizzie> I should perhaps average a bit more than with a (Hamming-weighted) window of 7 days; there's the weekend/weekday differences that doesn't gloss over, which makes for a peaky graph.
18:44:04 <cpressey> alise: ah. missed that
18:44:04 <alise> Vorpal: no...
18:44:08 <alise> network lag means i didn't see it
18:44:11 <alise> until i was typing mine already
18:44:16 <Vorpal> alise, well okay
18:44:18 <Vorpal> that I agree on
18:44:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/test10b.png -- fixed nickname mappings, with fabulous results: I got myself on the chart too.
18:45:20 <Vorpal> hah
18:45:32 <alise> hahaha i still dominate bitches
18:45:39 <alise> fizzie: it seemed squished horizontally
18:45:40 <alise> can you fix that?
18:45:43 <alise> *seems
18:45:54 <alise> fizzie: what the fuck, i'm there even in 2003 :D
18:45:59 <alise> a little red line
18:46:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, a suggestion is to add some scale?
18:46:04 <alise> I HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED
18:46:23 <Vorpal> the red line must be an artifact over there
18:46:29 <alise> NO
18:46:32 <alise> IT IS MY UNDYING PRESENCE
18:46:37 <alise> I am there even when there are no other colours
18:46:44 <fizzie> Yes, it plots all 8 lines throughout the whole plot. And I think the scale was suggested earlier too.
18:46:47 <alise> (Probably it layers all lines with height 0 on top of each other, and luck happens to be...)
18:46:51 <alise> I like it, don't change it :P
18:46:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, a higher graph or perhaps a log scale might be more useful to see anything useful in the less peaky regions
18:47:05 <cpressey> it's the alise-stalt
18:47:09 <alise> fizzie: Anyway yeah, give us a less-horizontally-stretched, generally-higher-resolution version :D
18:47:12 <alise> Please. >_>
18:47:31 <alise> i love how a lot of the time i talk more than *everyone not on the chart combined*
18:47:35 <fizzie> alise: I can add more horizontal pixels if you want, or just make the graph less tall to make it less stretchedy.
18:47:37 <Vorpal> alise, you mean less horizontally compressed!
18:48:19 <fizzie> Alternatively, I can make it average over more than 7 days so that it won't be so peaky, if you want just general overall activities.
18:48:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about that "average over hour of activity" graph? I seem to remember it showed I had never spoken during some hours
18:48:29 <Vorpal> wonder if that is still the case
18:48:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm trying to retrofit that script at the moment.
18:48:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, awesome
18:49:07 <alise> fizzie: Widen it so it's less stretched horizontally, then just make both dimensions bigger from that.
18:49:10 <alise> For more clarity. :P
18:49:22 <fizzie> But then the picture will be huge!
18:49:26 <Vorpal> XD
18:49:37 <cpressey> also make it update in realtime
18:49:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, it isn't huge until it is like my 360° panos
18:52:04 <cpressey> now graph swearing
18:53:35 <alise> fizzie: Size matters!
18:53:35 <cpressey> (like http://www.vidarholen.net/contents/wordcount/ )
18:53:35 <Vorpal> cpressey, if you write the function that maps the irc logs to swearing index
18:54:51 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh I interpreted it as you meant "every swearword" and thought you joked (since that would require understanding the context, "fuck" might not be swearing in some specific contexts)
18:54:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I actually laughed at that.
18:55:38 <alise> fuck is always swearing
18:55:40 <alise> it's just not always cursing
18:55:52 <alise> I love how "penguin" is a swear word.
18:55:52 <Phantom_Hoover> We must conspire to have "Fuck this shit bastard penguin's crap." inserted into the kernel source.
18:55:56 <olsner> alise: what's the difference?
18:56:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i think there's a fetish for that
18:56:16 <alise> olsner: cursing is saying "Fuck!", "Fuck this shit!"
18:56:30 <alise> just swearing would be, uh, "So then I fucked the antelope!"
18:56:41 <alise> this may be my own idiosyncratic definition, but i don't think so
18:56:49 <olsner> no, fucking an antelope is just beastiality
18:57:04 <Vorpal> alise, crap could be a typo for carp for example?
18:57:10 <Vorpal> not swearing then
18:57:38 <olsner> ... but still a bit fishy
18:58:04 <Vorpal> olsner, hey leave that to oerjan.
18:58:36 <alise> Vorpal: that's like saying someone who accidentally says nigger didn't actually say nigger
18:58:46 <alise> "Oh, that nigger -- er, black person, is really... successful."
18:58:48 <alise> he said nigger obvs
18:59:12 <Vorpal> alise, also on that page: A little about the counting method used: A word is counted if it appears in any context, even if part of another word (such as love in rollover, which was why this word wasn't included. It was a funny story about horrible awk memory leaks using regexp). It's not grep -c, multiple words on one line may be counted.
18:59:18 <fizzie> "Use of uninitialized value $body in length at ./log-activity-times.pl line 114." -- that also doesn't sound good.
18:59:29 <Vorpal> alise, and that is much less exact
18:59:31 <alise> fizzie: Do you plot it manually?
18:59:35 <alise> Vorpal: Meh.
18:59:53 <fizzie> I do everything (related to these plots) with Perl.
19:00:08 <fizzie> Pictures come from GD and so on. The horrible.
19:00:14 <fizzie> Should really clean this stuff up at some point.
19:00:53 <fizzie> I wonder why this per-time-of-day thing is taking a lot more time to run, though.
19:01:05 <Vorpal> from /usr/share/dict/words scrap (and similar words like scraps, scraped and so on) and skyscraper are example of words containing "crap"
19:01:18 <Vorpal> I can't imagine the latter being likely in the kernel source
19:01:21 <alise> ignore crap then
19:01:23 <Vorpal> the former though...
19:01:50 <Vorpal> alise, also abbrevs and so on, it doesn't seem like that thing checks comments only
19:02:10 <Vorpal> alise, so non-words containing those letters might occur
19:03:17 <fizzie> Whoops, I was using year:month:day in place of hour:minute:second there. (Still not sure why it would make it take so long to finish, though.)
19:04:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, missing indexes?
19:05:17 <fizzie> No, I don't think so; it was spending 99% of the CPU in the Perl side.
19:05:27 <fizzie> Oh well, http://zem.fi/~fis/test11.png for just last month's time-of-the-day info.
19:06:00 <fizzie> (Doing a longer period of time now.)
19:06:52 <fizzie> Oh, and the hours are again Finnish time.
19:07:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, which timezone?
19:07:39 <fizzie> EET/EEST is I think the abbrevs. We're one hour aheard of you.
19:07:46 <Vorpal> ah
19:07:55 <alise> oerjan has such a funky colour
19:08:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what is the cause of the abrupt changes for me? I can't think of a reasonable explanation. I certainly don't go online in exactly the same hour every day
19:08:17 <alise> I like how I managed to maintain ludicrous activity despite being in a mental institution.
19:08:21 <alise> I should get an award.
19:08:31 <Vorpal> alise, last month
19:08:33 <alise> (Not that month, but.)
19:08:37 <alise> Vorpal: I was still in there last month.
19:08:41 <Vorpal> hm
19:08:42 <alise> But as a daypatient.
19:08:48 <alise> But even before that, on the larger graph, you can see me.
19:09:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover does however seem to keep very strict "leaving irc" time
19:10:03 <fizzie> Hmn, there seems to be something wrong with the script, based on http://zem.fi/~fis/test11b.png which should be 2009-01-01 → 2010-08-31. So you might want to disregard these results until I find out what's wrong there.
19:10:35 <alise> Vorpal: he goes to bed ridiculously early
19:10:54 <Vorpal> alise, and he never stays even in case of an interesting convo
19:11:09 <alise> i'm pretty sure he has a thing known as school
19:11:13 <alise> don't you phanty :|
19:11:21 <Vorpal> alise, in summer too?
19:11:29 <alise> FOREVER SCHOOL
19:11:36 <fizzie> Yeah, there was something *really* screwy with the "count message lengths" logic.
19:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Not in summer, that's why I was able to stay up until half 12.
19:11:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, wasn't it counting number of messages rather than length?
19:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> But then I can't bear it any longer and sleep in any case.
19:12:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: That last one was doing something really weird.
19:12:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm okay
19:12:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: my $COUNT_LENGTH = 0; # 0: none, 1: count lengths, 2: count average length ← this was set to "2" earlier.
19:12:40 <Vorpal> ah
19:12:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: when is the latest you have ever gone to bed?
19:12:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what does it count now?
19:12:53 <fizzie> Anyway, http://zem.fi/~fis/test12.png for last month in mode 0, where it counts just number of messages and ignores lengths.
19:13:05 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I have no idea.
19:13:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, that needs to be logarithmic or something
19:13:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is no detail near the middle
19:13:37 <Phantom_Hoover> If I stay up really late, I'm normally not checking the time.
19:13:42 <fizzie> There's not much going *on* near the middle.
19:13:57 <fizzie> Anyway, the Y scaling is somewhat messy thanks to the smoothing.
19:14:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm why the 20-21 dip I wonder
19:15:14 <fizzie> That was just for one month; it's currently calculating the same for 2009-01-01 to 2010-08-31.
19:15:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 4am? 6am?
19:15:41 <alise> Not at all?
19:15:57 <alise> fizzie: I love how we all DIED
19:16:20 <Vorpal> alise, what?
19:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, one of them is correct!
19:16:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Your guess is as good as mine as to which!
19:16:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I bet it's more like 7PM
19:16:47 <alise> :|
19:16:53 <Vorpal> and I guess it is due to most of us being EU or NA timezones. Meaning we either sleep or are work or university at those times
19:16:58 <alise> That pm was in capitals, not just another way of saying it. That is, shouted.
19:17:00 <alise> *7 PM, maybe.
19:17:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, LIES
19:17:05 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test12b.png -- that's averaged over 20 months.
19:17:08 <Vorpal> alise, I'm sure a plot for June-August will look different
19:17:10 <Phantom_Hoover> 7AM!
19:17:13 <alise> Vorpal: yeah like nobody from university IRCs
19:17:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Half past three in the afternoon!
19:17:27 <Vorpal> alise, well, sure we do, but not as talkative
19:17:32 <Vorpal> alise, busy with other stuff
19:18:35 <Vorpal> alise, it looks like you talk more than "others" at some times
19:18:46 <Vorpal> 22:30 or so for example
19:19:02 <Vorpal> well 22:00-22:30
19:19:06 <fizzie> I'm doing the "sum of activities normalized to 1" relative-talkativity plot now; that reveals more midnight details.
19:19:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah nice
19:19:29 <alise> Vorpal: i monologue
19:19:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't 0 at midnight?
19:19:31 <alise> nobody else really does
19:19:47 <fizzie> Well, "night" as defined by "the time #esoteric is quiet".
19:19:50 <Vorpal> alise, true, I do it very rarely
19:19:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, :P
19:19:55 <fizzie> I monologue too, just not here.
19:20:17 <Vorpal> it happened a few times in here iirc, but quite sort. like 5-10 lines
19:20:24 <Vorpal> alise is at like 50-100 lines
19:20:46 <fizzie> Nowadays I tend to sleep from around 01-02 onwards, which means I keep missing a whole lot of stuff.
19:20:57 <olsner> I'm either: a) watching video in a window and not realizing it isn't fullscreen, or b) watching video in fullscreen and *still* not realizing it's fullscreen
19:21:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, client is always connected though?
19:21:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, or logging at least
19:21:21 <olsner> the second is a bit more confusing since I usually press the fullscreen button and probably expect it to cover my entire field of vision or something
19:21:23 <Vorpal> olsner, um?
19:21:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, yes, but I can't bother logreading when there's lot of stuff.
19:21:33 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/test12r.png -- normalized plot.
19:21:41 <Vorpal> olsner, well that is likely do to black borders around
19:22:01 <Vorpal> olsner, it seems unlikely that full screen window actually fills your monitor without some nasty up-scaling
19:22:11 <alise> olsner: field of vision fullscreen sweet
19:22:22 <olsner> hmm, it does cover the whole screen, at least all the pixels
19:22:23 <alise> Vorpal: oh come on nothing wrong with a bit of upscaling
19:22:28 <alise> if the upscaler is good
19:22:33 <Vorpal> alise, like that bent IMAX cinema in Stockholm?
19:22:35 <alise> and the source quality is not too high anyway
19:22:40 <alise> Vorpal: i mean for things like old TV shows
19:22:40 <Vorpal> alise, it is like half a sphere
19:22:48 <alise> good luck watching TNG at its original size on a modern monitor
19:22:56 <alise> you'd need a magnifying glass :)
19:22:58 <Vorpal> and you have video above you and so on as well as in front
19:23:03 <Vorpal> alise, hah
19:23:25 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: oh come on nothing wrong with a bit of upscaling <alise> if the upscaler is good <-- that is exceedingly rare
19:23:37 <Vorpal> alise, I haven't yet seen a good upscaler in fact
19:23:46 <Vorpal> that can manage more than say, 2-4%
19:24:37 <alise> mplayer fullscreen works acceptably on low-res, already-relatively-blurry material
19:24:40 <alise> like, as i said, old tv shows
19:24:47 <alise> you can't notice that it's upscaled because it was blurry to begin with
19:24:55 <Vorpal> hm
19:25:03 <Vorpal> alise, can't say I watched many of those
19:25:09 <alise> TNG :P
19:25:18 <Vorpal> alise, haven't watched that on computer
19:25:20 <olsner> hmm, this is 720p upscaled to 1080p
19:25:26 <olsner> looks good enough :)
19:25:30 <Vorpal> only on CRT based TV
19:25:40 <alise> olsner: that should be fine
19:25:42 <Vorpal> PAL
19:25:57 <alise> Vorpal: psht, you got the time-adjusted version!
19:26:01 <alise> or the jerky-movement version
19:26:13 <Vorpal> alise, hm
19:26:18 <olsner> I don't think CRT TV:s have pixels, it's more like fuzzy overlapping blobs of light
19:26:23 <alise> probably time-adjusted
19:26:44 <alise> olsner: if you haven't looked at a semi-decent CRT monitor recently try it, it's not as fuzzy as your mental image of it becomes :P
19:26:45 <Vorpal> alise, the kind of videos I tested upscaling with were modern ones filmed with digital camera, that filled like a bit more than 1/3rd of my monitor
19:27:02 <Vorpal> alise, had a problem finding anything higher
19:27:12 <olsner> alise: I don't know anyone who still has a half-way decent CRT TV :P
19:27:16 <Vorpal> well, the 4096p thing of youtube? would need downscaling for that
19:27:23 <alise> olsner: i said monitor :-P
19:27:29 <alise> i want a trinitron
19:27:34 <pikhq> olsner: Actually, typical CRT TVs don't have pixels. They have lines.
19:27:38 <alise> i want eeeeverything
19:27:57 <alise> EVERYTHING
19:28:06 <alise> i just want infinite money, and the justification would be that i'm awesome
19:28:10 <pikhq> The scan line can vary at arbitrary points during the scan.
19:28:11 <Vorpal> olsner, the old CRT TV downstairs doesn't even have text tv. And you have to program the channels stored for the buttons by opening a small hatchet and turn tuning knobs!
19:28:23 <alise> "text tv" heh
19:28:25 <alise> teletext my boy
19:28:29 <alise> teletext
19:28:39 <Vorpal> alise, hm Swedish name was "texttv"
19:28:40 <alise> or Ceefax
19:28:42 <olsner> Vorpal: that's faaaar from half-way decent
19:28:46 <alise> the most glorious server ever
19:28:46 <Vorpal> so I extrapolated from that
19:28:47 <alise> did you know
19:28:50 <alise> Ceefax still exists?
19:28:50 <Vorpal> olsner, of course
19:28:53 <alise> in the original, analogue, blocky form
19:28:53 <pikhq> If you could somehow actually get the signal to the TV set properly, you could do 4096x480 video on a regular TV set.
19:28:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I did!
19:28:56 <alise> over analogue airwaves
19:28:56 <Vorpal> olsner, but. It is retro
19:28:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It's so fun!
19:29:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i mean other people not in the UK
19:29:07 <alise> Vorpal: and indeed, it will continue broadcasting in that format
19:29:12 <alise> until the last analogue TV broadcast ends in 2012
19:29:13 <pikhq> (though for this you would *probably* need to hook into the electron gun directly)
19:29:17 <alise> since the world will end in 2012
19:29:17 <Vorpal> <pikhq> If you could somehow actually get the signal to the TV set properly, you could do 4096x480 video on a regular TV set. <-- eh?
19:29:24 <alise> the world will never see the beginning of a year without ceefax
19:29:30 <alise> and that is immensely comforting.
19:29:44 <alise> Vorpal: CRT, he means
19:29:50 <Vorpal> oh
19:30:00 <Vorpal> alise, doesn't it have a max native res?
19:30:06 <Vorpal> in that direction?
19:30:07 <fizzie> pikhq: They *do* have that shadow mask with three-color phosphors at discrete points, you can't really sensibly get more resolution than that even if you control the gun.
19:30:07 <alise> Ceefax: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Ceefax.png
19:30:15 <alise> Vorpal: it has lines, so you'd just get insanity
19:30:17 <pikhq> fizzie: Oh, right, color TVs have shadow masks.
19:30:20 <alise> fizzie: REMOVE THEM
19:30:24 <alise> with that ceefax image
19:30:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, hah
19:30:29 <alise> just imagine every pixel is blocky
19:30:31 <alise> to get a sense of it
19:30:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: my favourite tv program is Pages from Ceefax
19:30:41 <alise> the music is just so lovely
19:30:46 <Vorpal> alise, I know what text signal over tv looks like
19:30:50 <Vorpal> I seen it elsewhere
19:30:54 <alise> Vorpal: but you've never seen Ceefax!
19:30:55 <Vorpal> blocky yes
19:30:57 <alise> people still send letters in and shit
19:31:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, people WRITE to it!
19:31:04 <Vorpal> alise, indeed that I haven't seen
19:31:05 <alise> i have a friend who quite recently still used it
19:31:09 <alise> like read it regularly
19:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> And there's weather and news!
19:31:15 <alise> the letters though
19:31:23 <Vorpal> alise, you mean like personal letters broadcast to everyone?
19:31:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The digital version is an ABOMINATION!
19:31:29 <alise> Vorpal: no...
19:31:32 <alise> Vorpal: public letters
19:31:33 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, not digital.
19:31:34 <Vorpal> ah
19:31:36 <alise> like a primitive forum
19:31:40 <alise> that's really slow
19:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> This was on an analogue TV.
19:31:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I know.
19:31:51 <alise> I'm just saying that it is
19:31:52 <Vorpal> alise, how did you send them? Phone?
19:31:53 <alise> *is.
19:32:00 <alise> Vorpal: ... Post ...
19:32:05 <Phantom_Hoover> With such a crappy signal from Channel 4 that it's like playing Nethack!
19:32:07 <alise> And it's not did; it's do.
19:32:15 <Vorpal> alise, <actual lol>
19:32:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: At least you are spared Five!
19:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, INDEED
19:32:39 <alise> Vorpal: In Britain it is forever the late 1960s.
19:32:44 <fizzie> People write to the Finnish teletext system, too; there are (well, were...) a couple of pages dedicated to correspondence from viewers.
19:32:46 <alise> Plus, uh, early 70s mixed in.
19:32:58 <alise> fizzie: RIP analogue, eh?
19:33:03 <Vorpal> alise, the neverending December 1969?
19:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel very lucky that during my formative years the house I lived in had no signal whatsoever from Five.
19:33:16 <pikhq> ... You guys actually have effectively a *text terminal* over your analog TV signals?
19:33:18 <alise> i used to get up before 6am to watch the kid's program on five
19:33:21 <alise> when i was like... 5
19:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, YES.
19:33:26 <alise> pikhq: Well, no.
19:33:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, view only
19:33:31 <alise> pikhq: The only input is a three-digit number.
19:33:36 <alise> Oh, and four shortcut buttons on every page.
19:33:36 <Vorpal> yeah
19:33:38 <alise> To a different number.
19:33:38 <pikhq> alise: Still.
19:33:42 <alise> However, text would be SWEET
19:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, there's *actual input*?
19:33:49 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
19:33:49 <alise> pikhq: Also, for a multi-page document, it automatically scrolls.
19:33:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the page number
19:33:58 <alise> pikhq: Also, wanna know how it's broadcast?
19:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> How the hell does a TV get that signal through?
19:34:03 <alise> pikhq: /In the scanlines that aren't shown/.
19:34:11 <Vorpal> alise, not scrolls, it is like 746 (1) and so on
19:34:18 <alise> Vorpal: yes, yes
19:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> That means there's an actual transmitter in the TV *for the sole purpose of teletext*.
19:34:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it doesn't
19:34:29 <alise> listen
19:34:31 <alise> here's how it work
19:34:31 <alise> s
19:34:34 <alise> in every scanline not shown on the tv
19:34:35 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, that's actually fairly common.
19:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it does fancy filtering.
19:34:38 <alise> there is some teletext data
19:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, I get it now.
19:34:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, just relies on how crts work
19:34:47 <alise> this changes very quickly
19:34:47 <alise> so
19:34:50 <alise> when you enter a page number
19:34:53 <alise> it just waits until it's broadcast
19:34:55 <alise> then displays it
19:34:58 <alise> this is why it does the counting thing
19:35:02 <Vorpal> indeed, I remember the waiting thing too
19:35:03 <pikhq> alise: Also, it's the vertical blanking interval, not the cropped scanlines.
19:35:10 <alise> pikhq: hmm, alright then
19:35:13 <fizzie> Modern TV sets sometimes cache the whole set of pages, though.
19:35:14 <Vorpal> alise, it seemed like 100 (default page iirc?) was broadcast more often than other pages
19:35:26 <alise> "Those without access to teletext-equipped sets can still view limited Ceefax content via the BBC's Pages from Ceefax slot."
19:35:37 <alise> Those still living in the 1940s are advised to turn on their wireless.
19:35:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, I seen a TV cache like 4 pages around you or so at most
19:36:03 <Vorpal> hm
19:36:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some cache all of it. Including the different subpages of one page. It isn't very much data, after all.
19:36:11 <cpressey> Dear Ceefax, how are you? I am fine. Yours, cpressey
19:36:14 <Vorpal> alise, also the corruption due to poor signal
19:36:19 <fizzie> At least around here they still send the teletext stuff over DVB-TXT, I believe, though I'm not completely sure.
19:36:22 <Vorpal> alise, did it have any sort of forward error correction?
19:36:25 <Vorpal> or even checksum
19:36:39 <fizzie> At least the web interface -- http://www.yle.fi/tekstitv/html/ but it's mostly in Finnish only -- still works.
19:36:40 <Vorpal> you could get strange blocks all over the page
19:36:46 <pikhq> alise: The US sends much, much less stuff in the VBI than you guys do.
19:36:46 <alise> Vorpal: yeah i think it had no correction...
19:36:49 <alise> well it probably had some sort of duplication
19:36:52 <alise> otherwise no single page would work
19:36:55 <alise> but nothing much
19:37:05 <alise> pikhq: WE USE IT TO ITS TFULL EXTENT
19:37:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, "Tyvärr kunde sidan du sökte inte hittas"
19:37:09 <alise> <fizzie> At least around here they still send the teletext stuff over DVB-TXT, I believe, though I'm not completely sure.
19:37:09 <pikhq> Lessee. Closed captioning, time, content ratings.
19:37:12 <alise> it's all crappy and modern though
19:37:22 <alise> pikhq: closed captioning? that's teletext page 888
19:37:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, and above that "Valitettavasti etsimääsi sivua ei löytynyt"
19:37:26 <pikhq> We don't even use it for noting the aspect ratio of the analog signal.
19:37:34 <alise> [TEXT] [8] [8] [8] ...wait...
19:37:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Whoops, http://www.yle.fi/tekstitv/ just; I cut the URL a bit wrongly.
19:37:39 <alise> suddenly the teletext stuff disappears
19:37:47 <alise> only appearing, with the large font, in a black box, in the bottom, for subtitles
19:37:54 <alise> pressing a number brings up the little top bar again to go elsewhere
19:37:54 <alise> fuck yeah
19:37:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: wait, the tv contains a *transmitter*?
19:37:59 <alise> cpressey: no
19:38:01 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, it does nto.
19:38:04 <cpressey> thought not
19:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> *not
19:38:15 <alise> fizzie: that is amazing :D
19:38:28 <pikhq> alise: Yes, really, it is impossible to tell what aspect ratio an analog, System M, NTSC signal is.
19:38:33 <alise> pikhq: sweet
19:38:40 <Vorpal> alise, it was not 888 here, but something else
19:38:42 <Vorpal> forgot what
19:38:45 <Vorpal> 6xx iirc
19:39:02 <alise> pikhq: ...here we have the Sky (digital satellite TV) box set to relay the real aspect ratio to the TV
19:39:07 <pikhq> Which leads to two things: almost no 16:9 analog signals, and morons displaying all 4:3 signals as 16:9.
19:39:10 <alise> which then adds black bars to the left and right of 4:3 content as appropriate
19:39:12 <alise> this works universally
19:39:16 <fizzie> 300-something here, IIRC. And it wasn't really used much, sometimes there were alternative-language subtitles. Nowadays everything's done with DVB's subpicture streams.
19:39:20 <alise> unfortunately by default it just stretches
19:39:26 <alise> so it requires a little bit of set-up
19:39:37 <Vorpal> <pikhq> alise: Yes, really, it is impossible to tell what aspect ratio an analog, System M, NTSC signal is. <-- how comes?
19:39:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because the aspect ratio is not encoded in the signal.
19:39:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah
19:40:09 <fizzie> Oh, and the Finnish teletext system has a "subtitle blanking page", which puts two black bars over the regions that usually have subtitles there. It's meant for those who are trying to learn languages and want to avoid seeing the translations.
19:40:19 <cpressey> whoa, i just realized, if !(a|b) then !(a^2|b^2) where | is "divides"
19:40:22 <pikhq> Unlike most PAL systems, which note whether it's 4:3 pillerboxed, 4:3 native, 16:9 letterboxed, 16:9 native, or PALplus.
19:40:37 <Vorpal> alise, I remember that here they did real-time captioning for news sometimes. Which was strange to watch. The captioning sometimes typoed and backspaced
19:40:48 <alise> cpressey: !(a|b) == a%b :P
19:41:10 <pikhq> (PALplus being a backwards-compatible 16:9 encoding which on incompatible sets shows as 16:9 letterboxed, and on compatible sets shows as 16:9 native. The missing lines are encoded inside the letterboxing.)
19:41:11 <cpressey> alise: i was trying not to overload ints and bools
19:41:12 <fizzie> http://www.yle.fi/cgi-bin/tekstitv/ttv.cgi/html?PAGE=338 -- but it's pretty boring since there's only black background behind the black bars. :p
19:41:14 <alise> i wonder if you can exploit that somehow
19:41:16 <cpressey> er coerce
19:41:19 <cpressey> whatever
19:41:34 <alise> a%b implies (a<<1)%(a<<2)
19:41:36 <alise> erm
19:41:38 <alise> a%b implies (a<<1)%(a<<1)
19:41:49 <alise> not true if it overflows ofc
19:41:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what was the normal captioning pages?
19:41:53 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:42:00 <alise> fizzie: it should automatically show them
19:42:03 <alise> in realtime
19:42:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: 333 for channel 1, 334 for channel 2 here. They share the teletext pages.
19:42:27 <alise> <pikhq> (PALplus being a backwards-compatible 16:9 encoding which on incompatible sets shows as 16:9 letterboxed, and on compatible sets shows as 16:9 native. The missing lines are encoded inside the letterboxing.)
19:42:31 <alise> i think that's what everything uses nowadays
19:42:31 <alise> well
19:42:35 <alise> everything = all FIVE channels!
19:42:46 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, you can prove the irrationality of root 2 with that.
19:42:54 <alise> fizzie: ceefax is shared over BBC 1 and 2 but it's still always 888
19:42:56 <alise> because we are superior
19:42:57 <alise> wait
19:42:57 <alise> no
19:42:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah yes they did for SVT1/SVT2 here too
19:43:00 <alise> we have different ceefaxes
19:43:02 <alise> just most of the pages are identical
19:43:06 <Vorpal> so they had different captioning pages
19:43:07 <alise> although some are only available on one channel
19:43:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, this looks wrong? http://www.yle.fi/cgi-bin/tekstitv/ttv.cgi/html?PAGE=333
19:43:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does that page say?
19:43:37 <pikhq> alise: Well of course everything uses PALplus. It's the easy way of doing analog 16:9 video without breaking stuff for the person with the 50 year old TV set.
19:43:46 <alise> Vorpal: that looks like a teletext 404 :D
19:44:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, hey mine is just 35 or so iirc :P
19:44:14 <Vorpal> alise, yes I was suspecting that too
19:44:18 <Vorpal> but I want confirmation
19:44:29 -!- cheater99 has joined.
19:44:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: "The page you are looking for does not exist on the www-server", basically.
19:44:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
19:44:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: Might be related to the fact that no subtitled programs are going on at the moment.
19:44:51 <alise> "...I mean tele-server."
19:44:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: You might want to upgrade. TVs have gotten much less shitty.
19:45:04 <alise> pikhq: and more shitty in other ways!
19:45:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
19:45:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't use it :P
19:45:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, I hardly ever watch TV
19:45:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Argh, I have to go visit my (Catholic) extended family in 2 days.
19:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> O god I will have to pretend not to hate the pope.
19:46:11 <pikhq> alise: Yes, the programming is still shit.
19:46:16 <fizzie> alise: Oh, and the currently send Finnish subtitles (for hearing-impaired folks) using DVB subpictures with the language code for Dutch; I think it is because of compatibility reasons; all (well, most) boxes let you change the subtitling language, but less support the "force subtitles even if they're not displayed by default" thing.
19:46:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, and the array of 2 rows of 10 tuning knobs each under that hatch is cool. As I said above, used for storing the channels for the buttons
19:46:44 <alise> fizzie: I don't get it.
19:46:53 <Vorpal> of course, these days there is just one channel used, the one mapped to the digital TV box
19:46:57 <Vorpal> which has it's own remote
19:46:59 <Vorpal> used to set channel
19:47:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't get it either
19:48:13 <fizzie> If they sent those subtitles with the code for Finnish, then they'd have to set the "non-mandatory" bit on -- otherwise they'd be displayed for everyone, not just those that want to see them -- and since not all boxes can force subtitles to be displayed, they instead send them as "Dutch" subtitles, because with more boxes you can change the subtitling language to Dutch when you want to see them.
19:48:41 <Vorpal> XD
19:48:48 <fizzie> I'm not sure what they'd do if they'd happen to have actual Dutch subtitles for something, but also the hearing-impaired Finnish ones.
19:49:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is so screwy
19:50:26 <fizzie> Oh, and I have managed to record some DVB streams so that it picks up all subtitles from the whole... what's it called, "group" of channels sent over one DVB "stream", and then displays all of them at the same time. It's quite hilarious, since the other channels' subtitles don't correspond to the program at all.
19:51:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
19:51:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, very bored?
19:51:11 <alise> <fizzie> I'm not sure what they'd do if they'd happen to have actual Dutch subtitles for something, but also the hearing-impaired Finnish ones.
19:51:13 <alise> Dutch is now German
19:51:36 <Vorpal> alise, by the pigeonhole principle this will run into problems at some point
19:51:37 <fizzie> (DVB sends a program stream of N megabits over a single frequency, and it's the client's task to pick only video/audio/subpictures for the channel it's interested at.)
19:51:52 <olsner> Vorpal: only if something eventually gets subtitled into every language on earth
19:52:06 <cpressey> i wanted to make a homebrew computer based around a closed-captioning decoder chip at one point (makes it easy to display text on a crt...)
19:52:16 <Vorpal> olsner, true, and even before then there will be confusion about the moving around of various languages
19:52:16 <fizzie> (That does have the nice property that you can watch channel X and record channel Y even with only a single DVB tuner, as long as X and Y happen to be in the same group.)
19:52:20 <olsner> just keep remapping with a less popular language until you've run out of them, then invent a new language code 'xx' or something
19:52:57 <olsner> fizzie: ooh, that's cool, didn't know that about DVB
19:53:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
19:53:14 <olsner> that's probably where they'll squeeze the hbbtv stuff in
19:53:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, assuming it supports that?
19:53:29 <Vorpal> olsner, "hbbtv"?
19:53:55 <olsner> newfangled internetty digital web-tv 2.0 thing
19:54:29 <Vorpal> oh
19:54:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Assuming that. Supporting it was for a very long time a feature request in MythTV; they finally got it done with a really half-arsed solution though. VDR's been capable of it for... well, long.
19:55:02 <fizzie> (I don't know how well consumer-hardware style DVB boxes support it.)
19:55:03 <olsner> something like digital tv plus internet, essentially, with some new standards for how to do the internet part and (iirc) stuff like html with video-tags displaying DVB video
19:55:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I meant the tv card or whatever
19:55:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably it might do the filtering in hardware
19:55:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, but the cheap ones all just return the the full program stream and let the software figure it out. :p
19:55:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, like my digital tv box does, since it gives just one signal out to the TV
19:56:09 <Vorpal> analogue one that is
19:56:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, except that I did have one USB 1.2 DVB tuner. The bandwidth of pre-2 USB isn't wide enough to push the whole program stream through, so you have to use the filtering (which it did support) there. (But when you use it, you can't do the nifty simultaneous watch+record trick, of course.)
19:56:56 <alise> <Vorpal> alise, by the pigeonhole principle this will run into problems at some point
19:56:56 <alise> nope
19:57:00 <cpressey> webvervision
19:57:01 <alise> wanna know why?
19:57:12 <alise> English
19:57:18 <alise> nobody would ever want to read subtitles in such an insane language
19:57:21 <alise> so the last language can just replace English
19:57:22 <Vorpal> alise, XD
19:57:53 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:58:02 <Vorpal> alise, what about hearing impaired Americans who emigrated to Finland?
19:58:11 <Vorpal> English speaking americans I mean
19:58:47 <alise> nobody speaks English psht
19:59:06 <alise> oh, if they want to add a language not even in the list, they can replace Swedish
19:59:08 <alise> the other dead language
19:59:09 <olsner> you should just have different "languages" for normal text and hearing-impaired text
19:59:09 <Vorpal> alise, oui
19:59:22 <olsner> because, they are usually different subtitles
19:59:27 <alise> Som kommer att fungera perfekt.
19:59:34 <Vorpal> olsner, or make hw support the "not mandatory" flag
20:00:37 <fizzie> Some of it supports the manual visibility setting; they just might be worried that older devices will show those subtitles all the time if they label them as Finnish.
20:01:13 <alise> olsner: not in the UK
20:01:19 <alise> we get hearing-impaired stuff in the normal subtitles screen
20:01:28 <alise> because the rest of us have fine-tuned our acent decoders
20:01:30 <alise> *accent
20:01:32 <alise> and need no subtitles
20:01:45 <Vorpal> alise, ja med engleska vill säga ty detta vackra språk jag nu skriver på, som talas uti de flesta delar av Sverige är ju inte dött än.
20:01:51 <Vorpal> hm I wonder how well that translates
20:02:01 <alise> Vorpal: *it
20:02:05 <alise> or
20:02:06 <alise> maybe not it
20:02:07 <alise> but not uti
20:02:14 <Vorpal> alise, "uti" was correct
20:02:19 <Vorpal> in Swedish
20:02:27 <Vorpal> alise, it is rather poetic/archaic though
20:02:34 <alise> Vorpal: Alla vet att franska är det språk som Sverige. Bonjour!
20:02:49 <Vorpal> alise, "that language which Sweden"?
20:02:54 <alise> "the language of Sweden"
20:03:04 <Vorpal> alise, incorrectly translated
20:03:22 <alise> Egentligen Sverige ÄR Frankrike, om man tänker på det tillräckligt hårt.
20:03:24 <olsner> yippetiyap yippetiyap
20:03:31 <Vorpal> alise, wrong word order
20:03:43 <olsner> tänker man tillräckligt HÅRT så går nog precis vad som helst
20:03:45 <Vorpal> "är" has to go in front of Sweden
20:04:06 <alise> Vorpal: Din promiskuösa amerikansk mamma är så fet, blev hon ett svart hål.
20:04:06 <Vorpal> olsner, för vadå?
20:04:20 <alise> amerikansk is supposed to be African-American.
20:04:22 <alise> Dunno if that translated.
20:04:30 <Vorpal> alise, how formally said. I mean what was "promiskuösa" supposed to be?
20:04:33 <alise> yeah it didn't
20:04:36 <alise> Vorpal: promiscuous
20:04:42 <alise> "Your promiscuous African-American mother is so fat, she became a black hole."
20:04:45 <Vorpal> alise, ah, it sounds extremely formal in Sweden
20:04:54 <Vorpal> alise, and it ended up wrong after the ,
20:05:05 <alise> olsner: "one thinks hard enough, so will probably just about anything"
20:05:06 <alise> Deep.
20:05:22 <Vorpal> alise, nonsense in English
20:05:25 <Vorpal> it seems
20:05:27 <alise> Vi kommer i fred, skjuta för att döda, skjuta för att döda, skjuta för att döda, vi kommer i fred, skjuta för att döda, skjuta för att döda, män.
20:05:29 <olsner> alise: the harder you think, the harder *they* think!
20:05:40 <Vorpal> alise, why "men" at the end?
20:05:44 <fizzie> Seuraavaksi samma på finska?
20:05:51 <alise> Vorpal: That's how it is in the song!
20:05:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, "Seuraavaksi"?
20:06:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Next", in Finnish.
20:06:12 <alise> Det är liv, Jim, men inte som vi känner det, inte som vi känner det, inte som vi känner det, det är liv, Jim, men inte som vi känner det, inte som vi känner det, kapten.
20:06:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, "next same in Finnish"?
20:06:33 <alise> Vorpal: Is ^ correctly translated?
20:06:39 <Vorpal> alise, I don't know the original
20:06:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Right, or more like "next, the same in Finnish".
20:06:46 <alise> "It's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it, it's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain."
20:06:58 <Vorpal> alise, and well, lyrics are often not grammatically reasonable
20:07:31 <Vorpal> alise, "it's life" was literally translated. Which doesn't work
20:07:34 <Vorpal> it's an idiom in English
20:08:13 <Vorpal> you need to change it to "the life" (livet) for it to be sensible in Swedish, and even then it feels unidiomatic somehow.
20:08:21 <Vorpal> hm "så är livet" sounds better
20:08:22 <alise> Vorpal: no, it's not an idiom here
20:08:24 <fizzie> (To be more accurate about it, fi:seuraava is approximately en:next, and the -ksi suffix is I guess the translative noun case.)
20:08:28 <Vorpal> alise, oh
20:08:32 <alise> referring to [insert strange alien species of the week]
20:08:54 <Vorpal> alise, someone made some sort of parody song on TOS?
20:09:07 <alise> i.e. this thing is definitely alive, but not of a form we understand or commonly recognise.
20:09:19 <alise> Vorpal: In 1987, yes.
20:09:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, sånt är livet.
20:09:23 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCARADb9asE
20:09:24 <alise> It is wonderful.
20:09:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, that sounds idiomatic too
20:09:33 <alise> Especially the log Kirk holds in the video:)
20:09:35 <alise> *video :)
20:09:52 <alise> "Boldly going forwards / 'cause we can't find reverse."
20:10:38 <fizzie> Staaaaar-trekking, across the universe. The song was used *somewhere*, but I can't quite remember where. (Well, presumably it's been used in many places, but I am thinking of a particular instance.)
20:10:51 <alise> The breakdown at the end is... odd.
20:11:01 <alise> Vorpal: can you translate "across the universe" for me?
20:11:10 <alise> Google Translate says "Across the Universe", because of the Beatles thing.
20:11:17 <Vorpal> alise, in 1987? Not a home made video then
20:11:19 <Vorpal> hm
20:11:30 <alise> över universum?
20:11:40 <Vorpal> alise, hm... "over the universe"?
20:11:42 <Vorpal> nah
20:11:42 <alise> Vorpal: It got to #1 in the UK.
20:11:46 <alise> Simon Bates, then a BBC Radio 1 DJ, took the song under his wing with the result that it became an instant hit, spending two weeks at number one on the UK Singles Chart[2] and becoming the ninth best-selling single of 1987 in the UK.
20:12:11 <Vorpal> alise, for some reason I can't think of a reasonable word there
20:12:16 <Vorpal> alise, ask olsner
20:12:18 <alise> olsner!
20:12:23 <alise> olsner: Translate "across" for me.
20:12:24 <olsner> alise: ask Vorpal
20:12:28 <alise> Vorpal!
20:12:32 <alise> Vorpal: Translate "across" for me.
20:12:52 <alise> Över universum? Ett KORS universum! (<- non-joke)
20:13:01 <alise> It works in English! Although it isn't funny.
20:13:06 <fizzie> There was a Finnish comedy show sketch, a Star Trek parody, called "Tähtireki": literally translated that is "star sleigh", i.e. that thing Santa goes around in.
20:13:16 <fizzie> http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:T%C3%A4htireki.JPG
20:13:30 <alise> I still want to make Star Tech.
20:13:46 <Vorpal> alise, no I can't
20:13:49 <fizzie> I think the point was that they talked only in abbreviations; they just said the first letter of each word of the sentence.
20:13:49 <Vorpal> alise, ask olsner
20:13:55 <alise> (wherein all the places in TNG where they probably wrote "tech" instead of the technobabble (they actually did this), you dub "tech" over.)
20:14:02 <Vorpal> alise, "ett kors" means "a cross" not "across"
20:14:04 <alise> Captain! The techyon pulse is destabilising!
20:14:06 <Vorpal> as in "one cross"
20:14:06 <alise> fizzie: What? XD
20:14:09 <olsner> star träck = starling droppings
20:14:14 <alise> "I hate you!" "IHY!"
20:14:18 <olsner> *starträck of course, meh
20:14:24 <fizzie> alise: The commander was trying to say "Turn Right" or something, and kept repeating "TR, TR, TR", and the underling kept understanding it wrong.
20:14:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone familiar with the BBP pi formula?
20:14:34 <alise> fizzie: That ... is hilariously ridiculous.
20:14:51 <alise> fizzie: Was that the /entire premise/ of a /TV show/?
20:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't get the expression for the kth digit to work no matter how hard I try.
20:15:10 <fizzie> alise: Also, each episode ended with some catastrophe or other, and just before it hits the commander says, defeated, "EVVK"; short for "Ei Voisi Vähempää Kiinnostaa", or "Could Not Care Less".
20:15:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's in hex.
20:15:15 <alise> Well, uh, no.
20:15:17 <alise> BBP is binary.
20:15:26 <fizzie> alise: No, it was just a single sketch in some sort of multi-sketch comedy show. But there were a couple of them.
20:15:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes, I understand this.
20:15:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Obviously you don't want the 1/16^k factor.
20:15:43 <alise> So it's just (4/8k+1) - (2/8k+4) - (1/8k+5) - (1/8k+6).
20:15:49 <alise> Where that's 4/(8k+1).
20:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Have tried this.
20:16:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It never gives an integral amount.
20:17:00 <Vorpal> hm
20:17:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh wait, you /want/ 1/16^k.
20:17:18 <alise> That's why the rounding brackets are there.
20:17:22 <alise> Uh, I think.
20:17:23 <alise> Maybe.
20:17:24 <alise> No.
20:17:33 <Vorpal> <alise> Especially the log Kirk holds in the video:) <-- where? I missed that
20:17:42 <alise> Vorpal: every time you see him
20:17:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, there are no rounding brackets in my version.
20:17:44 <alise> he has a log in his lap
20:17:47 <Vorpal> alise, and why the log in kirk's knee?
20:17:47 <alise> the captain's log
20:17:51 <Vorpal> alise, oh duh
20:17:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula
20:17:58 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: you forgot the tech in the third tech from the end
20:18:02 <alise> Vorpal: had to have it pointed out to me too :)
20:18:23 <alise> <fizzie> alise: Also, each episode ended with some catastrophe or other, and just before it hits the commander says, defeated, "EVVK"; short for "Ei Voisi Vähempää Kiinnostaa", or "Could Not Care Less".
20:18:27 <alise> How were you meant to know this?
20:18:29 <Vorpal> alise, and what's up with the "on the starbord"? And why that thing in front of the face
20:18:30 -!- Sgeo|web has joined.
20:18:39 <Sgeo|web> alise: Any reason to not burn Knoppix?
20:18:41 <alise> Vorpal: Port and starboard bows.
20:18:52 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, burned cds smell badly?
20:18:53 <alise> Sgeo|web: It's not Ubuntu, and Ubuntu has everything you need right now, plus an actually viable OS to install afterwards.
20:19:03 <Vorpal> and burning plastic releases toxic gases
20:19:04 <alise> Vorpal: Also, in front of which face?
20:19:06 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure
20:19:12 <alise> Vorpal: Please tell me you are joking.
20:19:19 <Vorpal> alise, obviously -_-
20:19:24 <Sgeo|web> Does Knoppix not have TestDisk?
20:19:30 <Vorpal> alise, the one who says "that thing is on the starbord now"
20:19:34 <Sgeo|web> Also, I also burned Parted Magic
20:19:49 <Sgeo|web> And I'm not going to be installing any OSes on this drive anytime soon
20:19:51 <alise> Vorpal: that's uhura to start with
20:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, rounding it gives something vaguely correct.
20:19:54 <alise> then it's the doctor
20:19:57 <alise> well, nurse
20:20:00 <Sgeo|web> Just a temporary thing until I get an external HD
20:20:03 <alise> i think
20:20:03 <alise> uh
20:20:06 <alise> i forgot
20:20:07 <alise> the video
20:20:10 <alise> Sgeo|web: Burn Ubuntu.
20:20:16 <alise> I refuse to answer any more questions because there is no reason not to.
20:20:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, for a comprehensive suite of disk tools I suggest systemrescuecd
20:20:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, it has gparted, testdisk, and a lot of other stuff too
20:20:39 <Sgeo|web> Hmm
20:20:46 <alise> Vorpal: that also works
20:20:51 <Sgeo|web> Anything interesting on there that's not on Parted Magic?
20:20:52 <alise> but Knoppix or Parted Magic are just stupid choices
20:20:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, of course it doesn't have all the games or openoffice and so on that knoppix has
20:21:01 <alise> i think Sgeo|web just loves parted magic for some reason
20:21:08 * Sgeo|web is _currently_ using Parted Magic, fwiw
20:21:08 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, but that isn't what I want of a system rescue cd
20:21:26 <Sgeo|web> So unless there's something on systemrescuecd that's not on here already, I
20:21:32 <Sgeo|web> I'm not going to bother burning ot
20:21:34 <Sgeo|web> *it
20:21:34 <Vorpal> what is parted magic?
20:22:07 <Sgeo|web> LiveCD with a bunch of disk related stuff
20:22:08 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, I don't know what parted magic contains
20:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, are those square brackets in the BBW formula actually rounding?
20:22:11 <Vorpal> so I can't tell you
20:22:21 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, go to system rescue cd website and check
20:22:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
20:22:30 <Sgeo|web> http://partedmagic.com/programs.html
20:22:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, does that parted magic cd have mdadm and such?
20:22:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I've seen square brackets used as normal ones TOO OFTEN.
20:22:50 <Vorpal> for linux software raid
20:22:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I think...
20:22:52 <alise> Not sure.
20:22:55 <alise> [] as () is common in logic.
20:23:01 <alise> Vorpal: ok, Sgeo doesn't use /that/
20:23:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, where rounding is meaningless.
20:23:09 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, anyway http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page
20:23:11 <Sgeo|web> Yes, it does
20:23:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, go on from there
20:23:23 <Sgeo|web> Not that I'm using RAID
20:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, IGNORE ANYTHING VORPAL SAYS ABOUT RAID
20:23:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, http://www.sysresccd.org/Detailed-packages-list
20:23:40 <Vorpal> there
20:23:54 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, IGNORE ANYTHING VORPAL SAYS ABOUT RAID
20:23:55 <alise> wat
20:23:57 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, the cd also contains several non-linux boot images
20:24:13 <Phantom_Hoover> IT IS UNLIKELY TO HELP
20:24:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, such as some real mode hw testing tools like memtest
20:24:15 <Vorpal> and so on
20:24:34 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, http://www.sysresccd.org/System-tools
20:24:37 <Sgeo|web> Funnily enough, testing the memory is the least of my concerns right now
20:24:54 <Vorpal> "MHDD[25] low-level Hard Disk Drive Diagnostic. Reports S.M.A.R.T. data, firmware errorlog, runs firmware tests, scans surface reporting access times per sector and much more. Revised documentation at [26]"
20:24:55 <alise> "I have Active Worlds code to rescue!"
20:25:00 <Vorpal> is another bootable image file on it
20:25:18 <Vorpal> never tried that one
20:25:23 <Vorpal> I stick to booting the linux image
20:26:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, incidentally, have you tried picking apart your partition table (or what's left of it)?
20:26:27 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I can just point him to the website and package list since I don't know exactly what he wants
20:26:31 <Sgeo|web> I think at any rate, all I want to do is use TestDisk to backup all the important stuff somewhere, then get rid of the disk
20:26:50 <Sgeo|web> the SMART stuff claims there are read errors
20:26:50 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, I would suggest ddrescue?
20:26:57 <Vorpal> to get an image of what you can
20:27:01 <Vorpal> to another disk
20:27:07 <Vorpal> then try to restore from there
20:27:32 <Vorpal> since with manual rescuing straight from the disk it is likely to take more time, which is a BAD IDEA for a broken disk
20:27:43 <Vorpal> so ddrescue right away to an image file on another harddrive
20:27:49 <Vorpal> then recover from that
20:28:05 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, but for god's sake, read the ddrescue docs first
20:28:20 <Vorpal> you don't want to skip that step
20:28:39 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: sheesh. ROUNDING brackets should be ROUND.
20:28:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, since you need to pass some flags to make resuming possible in case you have to interrupt the recovering
20:29:02 <alise> Vorpal: he's already left it a day or two
20:29:04 <Vorpal> or want to retry parts
20:29:12 <Vorpal> alise, no hope then I guess
20:29:15 <Sgeo|web> Hmm?
20:29:16 <alise> prolly
20:29:20 <Vorpal> alise, how stupid can he be
20:29:30 <Vorpal> alise, first that key thing where he chipped the plastic
20:29:32 <Vorpal> then this
20:29:40 <Sgeo|web> What did I supposedly do?
20:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What's pi in hex?
20:29:55 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: 3
20:30:14 <alise> Sgeo|web: left a broken HD for days before attempting recovery
20:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> 3.243f6b, it appears.
20:30:23 * cpressey doesn't see nearly enough hex fractions these days
20:30:38 <Sgeo|web> alise: I don't know how soon I'll have a place to back stuff up to
20:30:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, double x = 3.14; printf("%lx\n", *((unsigned long*)&x));
20:30:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that should give you pi in hex
20:31:00 <alise> Prelude> let bbp n = ((4/((8*n)+1)) - (2/((8*n)+4)) - (1/((8*n)+5)) - (1/((8*n)+6))) * (16**n)
20:31:00 <alise> Prelude> map (round . bbp) [1..10]
20:31:00 <alise> [2,11,85,807,8541,97051,1159542,14380534,183563828,2397572384]
20:31:01 <alise> close enough
20:31:04 <Vorpal> assuming a 64-bit system
20:31:10 <Vorpal> adjust to long long for 32-bit
20:31:14 <alise> Vorpal: because 3.14 is pi.
20:31:29 <Sgeo|web> alise: it gets worse with time?
20:31:33 <Vorpal> alise, to 3 significant digits yes :P
20:31:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that exponent is wrong.
20:31:55 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula
20:31:56 <alise> Orally
20:31:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The 16^n is pointless.
20:31:58 <alise> *Orally?
20:32:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, yes a disk that is dying will get worse with time
20:32:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
20:32:15 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, rapidly
20:32:22 <Sgeo|web> Vorpal: even unused?
20:32:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, depends on failure mode
20:32:34 <alise> pi begins 3.24 btw
20:32:39 <alise> in hex
20:32:41 <Sgeo|web> The computer fell.
20:32:47 <Sgeo|web> That's the failure mode
20:32:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh wait duh
20:32:52 <alise> i'm pretty sure it's binary
20:32:54 <alise> not sure though
20:32:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, hard to tell what failure mode that gave raise to
20:32:58 <alise> hmm maybe not
20:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It's basically pi = sum from 0 to infinity [16^(-k)f(k))
20:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> *]
20:33:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, spingle misaligned? broken platter?
20:33:17 <Vorpal> could be anything
20:33:21 <Sgeo|web> Vorpal: how do I find out?
20:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So the nth digit *should* be around f(k).
20:33:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, you don't
20:33:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, he has used it.
20:33:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah....
20:33:47 <Phantom_Hoover> He had the disk read with another computer.
20:34:01 <Sgeo|web> And read on this one with TestDisk
20:34:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/4/b/04b7d4bcbf61949558b66a5ee48d9dbf.png
20:34:07 <alise> is equivalent
20:34:08 <alise> fwiw
20:34:10 <Phantom_Hoover> So if the head's wonky he could have ruined what data was left.
20:34:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, stupid stupid stupid
20:34:11 <Sgeo|web> I'll stop doing that
20:34:14 <alise> The formula yields an algorithm for extracting hexadecimal digits of π. In order to perform digit extraction first we must rewrite the formula as
20:34:20 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula#BBP_digit-extraction_algorithm_for_.CF.80
20:34:24 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, turn off disk until you are ready to begin test
20:34:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, that means physically turning it off
20:34:32 <Vorpal> spinning it down
20:34:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ^
20:34:38 <Vorpal> not just having it sit idle
20:34:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, ^
20:34:42 <Sgeo|web> How do I make sure it's spun down?
20:34:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, SHUT OFF COMPUTER, UNPLUG IT
20:35:00 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, that is how
20:35:01 <Sgeo|web> ...while having a usable computer
20:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, YOU DON'T
20:35:21 <alise> "and a pony"
20:35:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, how are you going to rescue it if you don't have another hdd to dump the image file to
20:35:37 <alise> Vorpal: well the mbr is intact
20:35:41 <alise> and at least one part of data
20:35:46 <alise> since wubi/ubuntu tries to boot
20:35:50 <alise> (but fails due to the windows installation being fucked)
20:36:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought Wubi installed *in the Windows filesystem*?
20:36:08 <Sgeo|web> Phantom_Hoover: it does
20:36:10 <alise> Yes, but it adds a bootloader.
20:36:13 <alise> Obviously.
20:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes.
20:36:24 <Vorpal> alise, yes but errors can spread if the platter is damaged. As in read head could try to read the damaged area and hit things physically and thus spread the bad sectors
20:36:25 <alise> Which is jumped to, and it just says "lol you no files"
20:36:26 <Phantom_Hoover> But if his Windows partition dies, so does Ubuntu.
20:36:30 <alise> Vorpal: indeed
20:36:34 <Vorpal> alise, if the platters have physical impact damage
20:36:48 <Vorpal> alise, which is why he should take that hdd out
20:36:53 <Sgeo|web> Is there an boot option I can add to livecds to make it not spin up the HD?
20:36:57 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, no
20:37:09 <alise> Sgeo|web: If you had a better laptop it would have tried to stop using the HD as soon as you dropped it :P
20:37:09 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, use an external hd cabinet perhaps
20:37:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Except maybe disconnecting the HD.
20:37:19 <alise> What Phantom_Hoover said.
20:37:27 <Sgeo|web> I'll do that then
20:37:28 <alise> Just do it. Like, right now.
20:37:30 <Sgeo|web> Let me turn off this
20:37:32 <alise> While it's turned on!
20:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The BIOS checks the storage devices for bootability.
20:37:41 <alise> Do you value YOUR LIFE or your DRIVE'S life?!
20:37:49 <Sgeo|web> I'm at school
20:38:01 <Sgeo|web> Not disconnecting it here
20:38:02 <alise> Vorpal: what does "i hela universum" mean?
20:38:06 <alise> Sgeo|web: Then turn it off. Now.
20:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely there's not particularly lethal current in a drive bus?
20:38:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Sgeo|web, alise: when I last rescued a dying disk I used an external harddrive cabinet, and turned it on, waited until it got an sdc device, then ran ddrescue with relevant parameters on it, dumping it to an image file on another disk
20:38:32 <Vorpal> alise, "in the whole universe"
20:39:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, listen to Vorpal. The longer your HD is in the computer, the less your chances of salvaging any data become.
20:39:30 <Vorpal> could rescue almost everything in that case. The error was not a read error but some strange spin-down-and-reset issue
20:39:32 <alise> Star Trekkin' / Över universum / På rymdskeppet Enterprise / Enligt Kapten Kirk!
20:39:33 <alise> Star Trekkin' / Över universum / Djärvt gå framåt / Eftersom vi inte kan hitta vända!
20:39:39 <Vorpal> alise, nonsense
20:39:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:39:45 <alise> I hope it preserved the RHYMES
20:39:46 <alise> Hi ais523
20:39:50 <Vorpal> alise, it didn't
20:40:00 <alise> Vorpal: it translates quite well
20:40:10 <Vorpal> alise, and we don't have the split infinitive or whatever it is called
20:40:10 <alise> Star Trekkin' / Over the Universe / On the starship Enterprise / According to Captain Kirk!
20:40:18 <alise> "...but he might be lying about that. This could be a cardboard box."
20:40:31 <alise> Star Trekkin' / Over the Universe / Boldly move forwards / Since we can not find reverse!
20:40:36 <ais523> <Birmingham University> Dear student, The University is launching a new website with revised content and a fresh new design. The purpose of the new site is to communicate to our external audiences in a clear and consistent manner. You will be able to see it next week when it launches overnight on 20 September. The main website address will change to www.birmingham.ac.uk.
20:40:43 <ais523> any bets on how much of a disaster this will be?
20:40:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, you will lose data rapidly on your disk right now
20:40:57 <cpressey> a fresh new disaster
20:40:57 <alise> ais523: i bet it will be a disaster; how much is the bet worth?
20:41:05 <ais523> oh, I think it'll be a disaster too
20:41:08 <ais523> so we both need someone to bet against
20:41:11 <alise> ais523: darn
20:41:16 <alise> let's bet against fungot
20:41:16 <fungot> alise: sorry, i misread. :) trying tho! lol
20:41:22 <alise> nope, too illiterate
20:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, how can you make a disaster with a website?
20:41:38 -!- Sgeo|web_ has joined.
20:41:40 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, anyway from linux you could spin down by hdparm -Y. And making sure smartd or anything else that might try to access the hd is NOT RUNNING
20:41:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, status update.
20:41:49 <alise> ais523: Tror du hela kanal bör vara på svenska?
20:41:50 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web, from windows you are fscked
20:42:07 <Sgeo|web_> Status update: I am on a school computer
20:42:14 <ais523> what on earth is going on?
20:42:25 <ais523> as in, why would you want to spin down a hard-drive without shutting it down, except to save power or something?
20:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, Sgeo|web_ dropped his computer.
20:42:28 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:42:35 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: ouch
20:42:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Quite a lot of stuff is now screwed.
20:42:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, proper computers will unload drive head
20:43:03 <ais523> did the hard drive actually crash?
20:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> We have been telling him to turn the effing disk off to stop it from destroying what survives.
20:43:19 <ais523> anyway, IIRC if you cut the power to a hard drive, it uses its own rotational energy as a generator to park the drive heads
20:43:32 <alise> ais523: he dropped it, tried to boot it a load of times, booted a linux livecd -- this all took two days or so
20:43:34 <ais523> although I'm not sure if they /all/ do that
20:43:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, we do not know if Sgeo is using a proper computer.
20:43:35 <Vorpal> ais523, well, no one opened and checked. MBR is readable, but it can't book
20:43:37 <Vorpal> boot*
20:43:38 <Sgeo|web_> <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web, listen to Vorpal. The longer your HD is in the computer, the less your chances of salvaging any data become.
20:43:40 <alise> now his harddrive is probably utterly irrecoverable and he's being slow to stop the disk
20:43:41 <ais523> alise: hm, ok
20:43:42 <Vorpal> ais523, and not readable from other computer
20:43:44 <Sgeo|web_> At that point, it was already off
20:43:56 <pikhq> ais523: Any one made in the last, oh, 20 years or so.
20:44:05 <ais523> it's hard to make a hard-drive theoretically unrecoverable, but after a while it reaches the point where you need an electron microscope to get the data off
20:44:37 <Vorpal> ais523, I think dropping in something hot enough to melt the platters might do the trick
20:44:44 <Vorpal> not sure if molten iron is hot enough
20:44:52 <ais523> oh, there are ways
20:45:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Blowtorch?
20:45:03 <ais523> but it takes a lot of effort, they're not the sort of thing you're likely to do by mistake
20:45:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: You need it to be hot enough to scramble the magnetic domains.
20:45:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, would not be as well stired
20:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Throwing it at one of the LHC's magnets?
20:45:33 * Sgeo|web_ desires solid state storage
20:45:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Firing it at a sunspot?
20:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Huge magnetic field, very hot.
20:45:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about hot enough to melt it, say a math of magma, and then stiring the whole thing well for an hour?
20:45:50 <Vorpal> stirring*
20:45:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's well above hot enough.
20:46:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah, is a bath of molten iron hot enough?
20:46:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, think terminator 2, final scene
20:46:25 <Vorpal> or such
20:46:36 <alise> i did not think Vorpal would have seen terminator.
20:46:38 <pikhq> Depends on what the magnetic material is...
20:46:53 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Melting point of iron is 1538 C...
20:46:55 <ais523> meanwhile, C-INTERCAL's been removed from Debian, they can't find a maintainer
20:47:01 <alise> i'll maintain it!
20:47:03 <Vorpal> alise, I only seen one of them, terminator 2
20:47:06 <pikhq> I *think* that's going to be above the Curie temperature for anything.
20:47:10 <alise> ais523: you run and tell them that i'll maintain it.
20:47:17 <alise> i expect a salary
20:47:23 <ais523> I don't think you're a debian maintainer...
20:47:39 <pikhq> Far above.
20:47:45 <alise> ais523: I CAN BE!
20:47:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah
20:47:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: BTW, the easier way to pull this off is Thermite.
20:48:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh?
20:48:09 <pikhq> Lowercase that.
20:48:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Thermite is not hard to make and *really* hot.
20:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, describe the situation so we actually know what's going on,
20:49:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah yes think I seen a video of it
20:49:17 <alise> pikhq: Better: Termite
20:49:19 <alise> Let them eat at it
20:49:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, periodic videos or such
20:49:24 <Phantom_Hoover> You've dropped the computer, yes?
20:49:28 <Sgeo|web_> Yes
20:49:29 <pikhq> Rust + aluminium. Apply blowtorch.
20:49:33 <Sgeo|web_> While it was running
20:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> And the hard drive, when read, shows no partitions etc
20:49:46 <alise> ais523: have you ever wanted a program for easy unix-pipeline screenscraping? no? why not?!
20:49:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you boot from it?
20:49:59 <Sgeo|web_> The MBR starts
20:50:05 <ais523> dissolving the platters in acid such that they're no longer magnetic works
20:50:05 <Sgeo|web_> Oh, new information from today:
20:50:11 <ais523> alise: script? ttyrec? tpipe?
20:50:12 <Vorpal> hm no partitions = mbr fucked, boots to boot loader = mbr not fucked
20:50:14 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what you mean
20:50:15 <Vorpal> sense = 0
20:50:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: Burns up to about 2500°C.
20:50:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, right
20:50:24 <Sgeo|web_> A friend tried a script he wrote that does ddrescue stuff
20:50:27 <alise> ais523: screen-scraping in the web sense
20:50:36 <ais523> lynx --dump?
20:50:38 <alise> that is, you give it a URL and some sort of syntax to extract things from the page, and it spits them out on stdout
20:50:38 <Sgeo|web_> But it was taking too long, and I wasn't willing to leave the laptop at the school over the weekend
20:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, this could easily spell doom.
20:50:43 <ais523> Perl?
20:50:49 <alise> ais523: good luck isolating "every other link" with lynx --dump
20:50:49 <Sgeo|web_> Of about 5gbs, 1gb was corrupted
20:51:05 <Vorpal> <Sgeo|web_> But it was taking too long, and I wasn't willing to leave the laptop at the school over the weekend <-- so run it at home with another computer
20:51:07 <Vorpal> as the host
20:51:24 <Sgeo|web_> I think, preferably, not using this friend's script
20:51:27 <alise> ais523: With ~~!!scrape(1)!!~~, it's $ scrape http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/ 'a:nth-child(even)'
20:51:31 <ais523> I'm not sure how well dd on an unmounted external hard-drive works on Windows
20:51:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, so very severe damage? Vorpal, comment.
20:51:37 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web_, but read ddrescue manual
20:51:50 <ais523> alise: I've used Perl before for that sort of thing; with a few CPAN libraries, it's not /quite/ that simple, but close
20:51:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well he should have not touched it until he could run ddrescue as the first thing
20:51:55 <Vorpal> no booting
20:51:57 <alise> ais523: Ah, but scrape has more features!
20:52:00 <Vorpal> and so on
20:52:05 <Vorpal> hard to tell
20:52:06 <ais523> alise: than CPAN?
20:52:11 <alise> ais523: Well, in a simple syntax.
20:52:13 <ais523> is that even theoreticlaly possible?
20:52:41 <alise> ais523: -content/-text print out just the HTML innards rather than the outer tag, and the whole contents with markup removed, respectively. -xpath uses XPath instead of CSS selectors.
20:52:43 <Sgeo|web_> The script is supposed to use a large block size for speed, then smaller for the errors, iirc
20:52:46 <alise> (They apply to the next pattern.)
20:52:50 <alise> It can read any URL! Probably!
20:52:58 <alise> And you can give it more than one selector, though why, I'm unsure.
20:53:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, basically, do what Vorpal says: get a disk image as soon as possible, and FFS *don't use the disk until then*.
20:53:31 <ais523> anyway, I've had a hard-drive break "unrecoverably" on me before (there was a power supply error)
20:53:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but in general Sgeo seems to act stupidly when it comes to these sort of things. I mean when I got hw issues on one disk in my RAID 1 setup (random spin down when reading, any smart scan while it happened "forgotten"), the first one I thought was a random fluke, second time I wasn't at the computer, but as soon as I got back I failed the array and turned off
20:54:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and use ddrescue to get the disk image, but you really want to read the whole manual first
20:54:26 <Vorpal> since otherwise you will use ddrescue in a bad way
20:54:37 <Vorpal> you need to provide a log file parameter to use
20:54:38 <alise> I'm also planning to let you select, e.g. an attribute to print out.
20:54:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's not idiocy, just not knowing the correct procedure and doing obvious things that are harmful.
20:54:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, otherwise you can't have a second go with smaller block size
20:54:56 <Vorpal> at the failed areas
20:55:14 <ais523> I lost a bit of data, but mostly I restored from backup
20:55:37 <Vorpal> suggestion: log + default settings on first attempt, then rerun with smaller block size and possibly non-cached access using the log file
20:55:45 <Vorpal> it will attempt to re-read failed areas
20:55:49 <Sgeo|web_> I think that's what the script is supposed to do
20:56:34 <Vorpal> and yes, don't use the disk, until you are able to rescue it. External cabinet recommended to cut down on time spent running while live cd boots
20:56:43 <alise> $ scrape http://reddit.com/ -text a.title # most pointless command-line ever
20:56:46 <Sgeo|web_> According to the manual, it automatically tries what you are suggesting
20:56:56 <alise> Oops, unicode error.
20:57:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web_, I'm pretty sure the log file is not used by default
20:57:04 <Sgeo|web_> Or, at least, according to my interpretation
20:57:07 <Sgeo|web_> Oh
20:57:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web_, which you need
20:57:24 <Sgeo|web_> So use the logfile, and you didn';t mean taht I have to manually use smaller block sizes for errors
20:57:31 <Sgeo|web_> It will do everything by itself
20:57:40 <Sgeo|web_> No insane scripts that contain scripts that modify themselves
20:57:43 <Vorpal> http://www.gnu.org/software/ddrescue/manual/ddrescue_manual.html#Examples
20:58:25 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web_, notice double invocation of ddrescue there
20:58:31 <Vorpal> ddrescue -f -n /dev/hda /dev/hdb logfile
20:58:31 <Vorpal> ddrescue -d -f -r3 /dev/hda /dev/hdb logfile
20:58:46 <Vorpal> well that one will copy to another disk
20:58:52 <Vorpal> as in, not to an image file
20:59:06 <Vorpal> you probably want to copy to an image file instead
20:59:35 <alise> image file on /what/?
21:00:03 <Vorpal> alise, on a partition on a larger disk
21:00:05 <Vorpal> obviously
21:00:12 <Vorpal> alise, that is the most sensible way
21:00:27 <Vorpal> alise, since it was a laptop disk I doubt it is 1.5 TB
21:00:37 <Sgeo|web_> 100GB
21:00:44 <Sgeo|web_> Most of it used
21:00:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo|web_, used or not won't matter here
21:00:58 <Vorpal> it will be the full 100 GB needed
21:01:05 <Vorpal> no less no more
21:01:25 <Vorpal> and yes 100 GB fits easily onto most desktop drives of 4 years ago even
21:02:00 <Vorpal> heck it would even fit on a semi-modern laptop drive. 250 GB or such is common for laptops these days
21:02:24 <Vorpal> my thinkpad is a year old and has 200 GB unless I misremember
21:06:34 -!- trinithis has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:09:00 <Sgeo|web_> I think this whole summer onwards I have not been at my best
21:10:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, YOU ARE TOO OLD
21:10:42 <Phantom_Hoover> 21? Nearly dead!
21:11:08 <Sgeo|web_> I've been wondering if maybe I'd prefer computer repair to programming
21:11:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hey you
21:11:23 <Sgeo|web_> I think I tend to like debugging more than writing code, for instance
21:11:49 <Sgeo|web_> But... I think this whole incident means I should perhaps stick with code
21:11:51 <Vorpal> <Sgeo|web_> I've been wondering if maybe I'd prefer computer repair to programming <-- um, considering recent events I would definitely turn in the door and go to a competitor :P
21:11:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, surely 90% of professional programming is program maintentance?
21:12:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, we need higher level processors, move GC to hardware
21:12:39 <Vorpal> then it won't be like that
21:13:00 <alise> hardware gc <3
21:13:11 <Sgeo|web_> How would that work?
21:13:24 <alise> <Sgeo|web_> I've been wondering if maybe I'd prefer computer repair to programming <-- wow, professional programming is uncreative enough!
21:13:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, surely a little risky?
21:13:40 <alise> Vorpal: moving gc to hw doesn't end maintenance though :P
21:13:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: obvs you only do it on a lisp processor or similar
21:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> What happens when someone invents the Magic GC we want?
21:14:06 <Phantom_Hoover> We have tonnes of computers which we can't improve.
21:14:25 <Sgeo|web_> Mana-based garbage collection...
21:14:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What about when someone figures out a better way of executing Lisp in hardware?
21:14:43 <alise> That's not upgradable, either.
21:14:57 <alise> you could do it in writable microcode i guess :P
21:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, true, but still...
21:15:06 * Sgeo|web_ wonders if Factor can be efficiently run on a Lisp machine
21:15:14 <alise> OSDIFJOISDJFDSF
21:15:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, SHUT UP ABOUT FACTOR PLEASE
21:15:23 <alise> it's not a Sgeo-meme, it's just irritating!
21:15:32 <alise> only say something about it if you have an actual comment! please!
21:15:46 <Sgeo|web_> Am I allowed to talk about Mixfix?
21:15:55 <Phantom_Hoover> NO
21:15:59 <Sgeo|web_> ...
21:16:00 <alise> Maybe
21:16:01 <Vorpal> <alise> Vorpal: moving gc to hw doesn't end maintenance though :P <-- it's a magical cure for everything!
21:16:01 <Phantom_Hoover> It's too Agda-y!
21:16:02 <Vorpal> so it must
21:16:03 <alise> If it's actually interesting
21:16:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's his language
21:16:12 <alise> which should be multifix
21:16:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh.
21:16:19 <alise> not mixfix
21:16:28 <Sgeo|web_> Ok, multifix then
21:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Mixfix is Agda's crazy way of doing it, yes?
21:16:40 <Vorpal> (before you claim I'm trying to ridicule the concept: no, I'm just being silly in general)
21:16:42 <alise> It's not that crazy.
21:16:53 <alise> Coq's system is better, but even crazier.
21:16:58 <Sgeo|web_> What does Agda do?
21:17:03 <alise> "Oh yes, just write out the syntax with spaces and it'll work!"
21:17:07 <alise> Sgeo|web_: things
21:17:09 <cpressey> fixfix
21:17:12 <alise> parse into a list of tokens then match against things like if_then_else_
21:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, it's a dependent language that thinks it's a theorem prover.
21:17:28 <cpressey> Sgeo|web_: you will fall in love with it now
21:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It's wrong, before you get started.
21:17:57 <alise> Sgeo|web_: I have here a stinking turd.
21:18:01 <alise> It is executable.
21:18:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Is the turd Agda?
21:19:48 <alise> No. It is a turd. I made it myself.
21:20:10 <cpressey> and then you chmod 755'ed it. eww.
21:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo|web_, anyway; it wants to be a proof assistant, but it lacks various things that you really need to get a nice proof assistant.
21:20:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Like a tactic language.
21:20:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Or a well-designed proof kernel.
21:21:03 <Sgeo|web_> What's a safe place to put my HD when I take it out of the laptop?
21:21:07 <Vorpal> alise, was it agda you said you didn't understand? or was it coq? I remember it was one of them
21:21:57 <alise> Vorpal: i am amateur-alright with coq i.e. i know it but could never prove anything substantial or even medium in it (like most people :P)
21:22:08 <alise> agda i know the language but cannot understand why it's so stupid
21:22:16 <fizzie> Here's a totally cryptic visualization for you: http://zem.fi/~fis/alise_vs_vorpal.png
21:22:24 <alise> and the stdlib is basically 99% random unicode characters picked because they look vaguely related to the operation
21:22:26 <alise> or even just at random
21:22:28 <Vorpal> alise, the language being stupid?
21:22:29 <alise> yes
21:22:35 <Vorpal> alise, heh
21:22:58 <Vorpal> alise, so what is something like "length of list"? unicode snowman?
21:22:58 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zvCUmeoHpw <-- awesome
21:23:11 <alise> Vorpal: no their list library is like 40 lines long because that's not boring and abstract enough
21:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I can give examples.
21:23:32 <Vorpal> alise, haha
21:23:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, go on
21:23:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if they are about crazy
21:23:56 <Phantom_Hoover> NOOO, I ^Led away my channel view!
21:24:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, eh?
21:24:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, List.agda.
21:24:37 <Vorpal> alise, why exactly is that comet displaying cracks with magma?
21:24:43 <Phantom_Hoover> ∷ is the cons operator.
21:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Not ::, note.
21:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> The latter is too easy to type.
21:25:02 <alise> Vorpal: hm?
21:25:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not too weird so far, a bit pretentious I would say
21:25:20 <alise> i mainly linked it for how well the music matches it :)
21:25:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ∷ʳ is an operator for appending.
21:25:34 <alise> for something from about 30 years prior to the video
21:25:39 <alise> (not made for the music)
21:26:06 <alise> anyway it's an asteroid :P
21:26:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ∷ʳ' is a *type constructor*
21:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea what the type is for.
21:26:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Tell him the coinduction syntax!
21:27:04 <Vorpal> alise, yeah that video is not really realistic
21:27:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, yes.
21:27:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Coinduction is not performed through the sane method Coq uses.
21:27:33 <Vorpal> alise, they got the scale of that hit very wrong. Not astroid there, most be planetoid
21:27:37 <alise> Vorpal: but it is pretty
21:27:45 <alise> _≈⟨_⟩_ : ∀ x {y z} → x ≈ y → y IsRelatedTo z → x IsRelatedTo z
21:27:45 <alise> _ ≈⟨ x≈y ⟩ relTo y∼z = relTo (trans (reflexive x≈y) y∼z)
21:27:45 <alise> #
21:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> There is an infinity operator which makes a type coinductive.
21:27:48 <alise> erm, without the #
21:28:07 <alise> data Normal : (n : ℕ) → Polynomial n → Set (r₁ ⊔ r₂ ⊔ r₃) where
21:28:08 <alise> con : (c : C.Carrier) → Normal 0 (con c)
21:28:08 <alise> _↑ : ∀ {n p'} (p : Normal n p') → Normal (suc n) (p' :↑ 1)
21:28:08 <alise> _*x+_ : ∀ {n p' c'} (p : Normal (suc n) p') (c : Normal n c') →
21:28:08 <alise> Normal (suc n) (p' :* var zero :+ c' :↑ 1)
21:28:08 <alise> _∶_ : ∀ {n p₁ p₂} (p : Normal n p₁) (eq : p₁ ≛ p₂) → Normal n p₂
21:28:12 <Vorpal> alise, and I don't think land will be torn up that cleanly like it they were just a texture :P
21:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And the *musical sharp sign* is used to lift a value into its coinductive type.
21:28:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, XD
21:28:32 <Phantom_Hoover> The flat sign is used for the converse.
21:28:38 <alise> data Rec {a} (A : ∞ (Set a)) : Set a where
21:28:38 <alise> fold : ♭ A → Rec A
21:28:48 <alise> (The builtins:
21:28:50 <alise> postulate
21:28:50 <alise> ∞ : ∀ {a} (A : Set a) → Set a
21:28:50 <alise> ♯_ : ∀ {a} {A : Set a} → A → ∞ A
21:28:50 <alise> ♭ : ∀ {a} {A : Set a} → ∞ A → A)
21:28:59 <Phantom_Hoover> So *you cannot tell easily* whether a function is coinductive or not.
21:29:06 <alise> i'm trying to find that wonderfu lthing
21:29:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, now it went over my head
21:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to look for infinity signs.
21:29:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: when quantifying on levels you have to use ℓ
21:29:28 <alise> why? because ascii is too easy
21:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, Coq and Agda are strongly-normalising; recursion is very carefully restricted.
21:29:45 <alise> type-signature : ∀ {a} (A : Set a) → A → A
21:29:45 <alise> type-signature A x = x
21:29:45 <alise> syntax type-signature A x = x ∶ A
21:29:48 <cpressey> geez, and here I am wondering why Agda overloaded ? for so many purposes
21:29:49 <Vorpal> ah
21:29:49 <alise> hey they added syntax definition
21:29:59 <alise> cpressey: :D
21:30:20 <alise> -‿homo : Homomorphic₁ ⟦_⟧ F.-_ T.-_
21:30:20 <alise> -‿homo x =
21:30:20 <alise> GroupP.left-inverse-unique T.+-group ⟦ F.-_ x ⟧ ⟦ x ⟧ (begin
21:30:20 <alise> T._+_ ⟦ F.-_ x ⟧ ⟦ x ⟧ ≈⟨ T.sym (+-homo (F.-_ x) x) ⟩
21:30:20 <alise> ⟦ F._+_ (F.-_ x) x ⟧ ≈⟨ ⟦⟧-cong (proj₁ F.-‿inverse x) ⟩
21:30:21 <alise> ⟦ F.0# ⟧ ≈⟨ 0-homo ⟩
21:30:22 <alise> T.0# ∎)
21:30:24 <alise> This is a proof in Agda.
21:30:27 <alise> No, it does not make any more sense once you know Agda.
21:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> AAA
21:30:33 <alise> All I can say is "no homo".
21:30:44 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS why are they using underbars
21:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> *ties
21:31:02 <cpressey> all of unicode at your fingertips and you picked UNDERBARS?
21:31:12 <alise> huh they use ... instead of ellipsis
21:31:15 <alise> bug!
21:31:17 <Vorpal> cpressey, :D
21:31:29 <Vorpal> why is there anything below codepoint 127 at all
21:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> No; underscores are strictly forbidden in Agda syntax.
21:31:43 <alise> not true
21:31:45 <Phantom_Hoover> They indicate where the arguments actually go.
21:31:46 <alise> they are there in the declarations
21:31:49 <alise> if_then_else_
21:31:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: only for operators
21:31:54 <cpressey> truth and falsehood are the first two higher spirits
21:31:56 <alise> not values
21:31:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, that's what I meant.
21:32:12 <alise> ≈⇔≈′-set : ∀ {c} {C : Container c} {X : Set c} (xs ys : ⟦ C ⟧ X) →
21:32:12 <alise> xs ≈[ set ] ys ⇔ xs ≈[ set ]′ ys
21:32:28 <alise> ×◇⇿◇◇× : ∀ {c} {C₁ C₂ : Container c}
21:32:29 <alise> {X Y} {P : X → Set c} {Q : Y → Set c}
21:32:29 <alise> {xs : ⟦ C₁ ⟧ X} {ys : ⟦ C₂ ⟧ Y} →
21:32:29 <alise> ◇ (λ x → ◇ (λ y → P x × Q y) ys) xs ⇿ (◇ P xs × ◇ Q ys)
21:32:36 <alise> Yes, ×◇⇿◇◇× is an ACTUAL DEFINED NAME.
21:32:43 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
21:32:43 <alise> I am not shitting you. No, it is not displaying incorrectly (unless it's question marks).
21:32:45 <Phantom_Hoover> WHAT FILE
21:32:49 <alise> Also, that's just the type signature.
21:32:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~nad/listings/lib/Data.Container.Any.html#4950
21:33:18 <Vorpal> alise, I think there is a tvtropes entry about not having any sense of scale. And it applies to that youtube video you linked. While a astroid can be huge. It won't be like that. That would be like a dwarf planet hitting us when it comes to the size
21:33:26 <alise> Vorpal: Shut up it was cool.
21:33:28 <Vorpal> not sure about the effects though
21:33:31 <alise> It was probably meant to be a planetoid.
21:33:43 <Vorpal> alise, yeah so wrong title
21:33:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's like they looked at mathematical notation and what they took from it was "using lots of strange symbols is good".
21:33:52 <fizzie> alise, Vorpal: Hey, you guys are *really* similar. Here, let's have a plot of your line lengths, versus an uninterested third party (myself): http://zem.fi/~fis/len.png -- the Y scale is log(frequency) for that length, the X scale is message body length; summed over 2009-01-01 - 2010-08-31 again.
21:33:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, uhu.
21:33:58 <alise> Vorpal: But pretty, nonetheless, and with well-synchronised music.
21:34:16 <alise> fizzie: Clearly, we are soulmates.
21:34:23 <ais523> meanwhile, my new compression algo is now beating bz2 on the test file I'm using (a C-INTERCAL tarball)
21:34:27 <Vorpal> alise, alise overlaps you
21:34:31 <alise> Is that length of messages?
21:34:34 <Vorpal> err
21:34:38 <ais523> although it's still a long way behind lzma
21:34:41 <alise> sounds like a song line
21:34:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, alise overlaps you at the end
21:34:45 <alise> "Alise, alise overlaps you!"
21:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, we hope you now understand why Agda sucks.
21:34:59 <Vorpal> alise, mistab
21:35:01 <alise> ais523: describe it?
21:35:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no there's more
21:35:18 <alise> ƛ-/✶-↑✶ : ∀ k {m n t} (ρs : Subs T m n) →
21:35:18 <alise> ƛ t /✶ ρs ↑✶ k ≡ ƛ (t /✶ ρs ↑✶ suc k)
21:35:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, my graph looks oddly flat at the bottom for some part
21:35:21 <alise> ·-/✶-↑✶ : ∀ k {m n t₁ t₂} (ρs : Subs T m n) →
21:35:21 <alise> t₁ · t₂ /✶ ρs ↑✶ k ≡ (t₁ /✶ ρs ↑✶ k) · (t₂ /✶ ρs ↑✶ k)
21:35:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, same for the other ones
21:35:32 <ais523> the basic idea is to build the original data into a tree
21:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, is that lambda-bar?
21:35:36 <ais523> and then deduplicate the tree
21:35:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, when they get 300+
21:35:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Something like that!
21:35:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is happening there
21:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, should we even *start* on proofs?
21:36:00 <ais523> starting off with a binary tree, but optimising it into an n-ary tree
21:36:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I have a wonderful one.
21:36:07 <alise> (It's too sm--)
21:36:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, and what is up with the peak for alise at a bit over 450? Full length lines resulting in line break?
21:36:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's probably when the absolute counts of occurrences of particular lengths go to 0. It's at different Y height because the fraction of count "1" depends on how many messages there have been in total.
21:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, to those unfamiliar with proof assistants:
21:36:52 <alise> Vorpal: likely
21:36:55 <alise> i paste a lot
21:37:01 <fizzie> And yes, peaking at the end is probably because of the IRC length limits.
21:37:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Coq gives a tactic language to help you transform propositions to assist proof.
21:37:23 <ais523> the major issue is to find an efficient way to encode the resulting tree
21:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Agda requires you to construct proof functions *by hand*.
21:37:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder why mine ends earlier? I mean, I know I have sent lines that got broken over several
21:37:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Untrue! There is a program that's basically type signature -> term. :P
21:37:58 <alise> Not that that helps much.
21:38:06 <alise> Vorpal: I have a shorter name?
21:38:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Maybe your automatic line-breaker is playing it safe rather than sorry?
21:38:09 <alise> So I get to fit more in.
21:38:11 <alise> Or that.
21:38:19 <alise> brb
21:38:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, re that video:
21:38:23 <Vorpal> probably a c combination
21:38:30 <Vorpal> s/ c //
21:38:32 <Vorpal> err
21:38:41 <alise> s/acomb/a comb/
21:38:44 <alise> brb
21:38:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It's all right, except that it's a dwarf planet, not an asteroid, and there aren't any tidal forces.
21:38:48 <Vorpal> /s/s/\/\//\/ \//
21:38:56 <Vorpal> :D
21:39:24 <Vorpal> alise, no you must sed the regex
21:39:30 <Vorpal> using /
21:39:33 <fizzie> "AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/AnMaster" (which is what many of those lines probably had) *is* quite a bit longer than "alise!~alise@[ip here]", that's true.
21:39:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
21:39:57 <Vorpal> should change my ident I guess
21:40:03 <alise> lol
21:41:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, applying some sort of smoothing function might be interesting to make it easier to actually interpret the data in the noisy areas
21:41:33 <fizzie> I could fit some sort of mixture-model distribution there, that might make sense.
21:41:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, also do such plots for everyone of the top speakers in here, then try to match up people :D
21:41:49 <fizzie> Also added ais523 to the plot, though it's in danger of getting seriously crowded.
21:41:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, like, what about you and oerjan? Or ais523 or oerjan?
21:41:59 <ais523> what post?
21:42:18 <Vorpal> ais523, some sort of distribution of irc line length http://zem.fi/~fis/len.png
21:42:23 <Vorpal> ais523, see that url
21:42:43 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:42:49 <ais523> the topic was too long for me to see the link to the logs
21:42:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, and ais523 is significantly different from you and me
21:42:59 <Vorpal> ais523, um. /topic
21:43:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: I should probably make some sort of interactive thing where you can choose the names and get a customized plot, but not today.
21:43:02 <Vorpal> should give it to you
21:43:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
21:43:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, that would be awesome. Is it fast enough for that?
21:43:33 <ais523> Vorpal: I know how to get the full topic, how do you think I shortened it?
21:43:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, also what is "mixture-model distribution"?
21:43:44 <Vorpal> ais523, so why shorten it?
21:43:52 <ais523> to help in future
21:43:56 <Vorpal> uhu
21:44:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: I could precalc the counts for everyone (or at least top 100 or so), then the actual displaying would be fast enough.
21:44:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, true
21:45:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: And mixture-model distribution is just something where you take a random variable X with a probability K from distribution D1, and with (1-K) from distribution D2; it's a nice way of fitting parametric distributions to something that doesn't quite follow a "real" distribution (Gaussian, gamma, exponential, whatever).
21:45:44 <fizzie> (In general case there can of course be more than two components.)
21:45:47 <Vorpal> ah
21:46:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, a bit hard on those end bits though
21:46:54 <ais523> hmm, now I'm lost in logreading
21:46:59 <ais523> I should do that more often, #esoteric has great logs
21:47:23 <ais523> nice to see Quintopia here
21:47:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, it s a lot more well defined near the base. Maybe something that extrapolates missing data or something, if that makes any sense
21:47:33 <Vorpal> ais523, Quintopia?
21:47:42 <ais523> user on Esolang
21:48:12 <Vorpal> ah
21:48:21 <ais523> as for that debate about the ironic Comic Sans T-shirt
21:48:31 <ais523> find a font that looks like Comic Sans to most people, but isn't
21:48:33 <ais523> and use that
21:48:34 <fizzie> Oh, just today we had a Intel guy talking about modeling long-tailed distributions (in network traffic anomaly detection) with a two-component mixture of Pareto and exponential distributions, especially to handle that tail end of rare events well. (That's where I sort of got the idea from.)
21:48:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, haha :)
21:50:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:50:31 <ais523> alise: random insane idea: use powers of 1012 for measurements, in order to help silence the kB/KiB debate
21:50:52 <ais523> it'll be about right no matter what measurement system you're used to
21:51:58 <fizzie> It will also be somewhat wrong in all cases, too.
21:52:15 * pikhq curses at US labor laws
21:52:23 -!- Flonk_ has joined.
21:52:32 <pikhq> Now, then. Anyone want to guess how many days off a US employer must give to employees?
21:52:39 <ais523> depends on the state
21:53:01 <pikhq> ais523: Nice guess, but actually wrong.
21:53:20 <ais523> well, I think there probably are states with stricter laws on this than federal laws
21:53:32 <ais523> given that they differ on things like notice requirements
21:53:48 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:53:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, 20 per year?
21:54:00 <ais523> my next guess would be 0, or maybe 1
21:54:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: Try lower.
21:54:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, that was a low one
21:54:08 <pikhq> ais523: 0 it is!
21:54:25 <ais523> OTOH, why would you agree to an employment contract that didn't give you at least some time off?
21:54:31 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:54:35 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
21:54:43 <pikhq> ais523: Are you familiar with the concept of "wage slavery"?
21:55:04 <ais523> pikhq: I'm aware with the original meaning, but it doesn't seem likely to apply nowadays
21:55:45 <ais523> it's when you somehow cause someone to owe you a lot of money, then offer them a job and accommodation to help pay it back, charge for the accommodation such that the amount they owe you doesn't actually go /down/
21:56:08 <ais523> and the whole thing ends up being equivalent to slavery, but more legal
21:57:10 <pikhq> ais523: Many Americans have actually gotten themselves in a similar situation.
21:57:29 * Phantom_Hoover wonders whether to write "Journey to Alpha Centauri" for real.
21:57:30 <ais523> nowadays, there's the option of claiming bankruptcy, which is probably preferable to slavery
21:57:49 <pikhq> And because people are morons, back to debt!
21:58:13 <pikhq> (or because they're under student loans, which cannot be bankrupt upon)
21:58:18 <ais523> what, really?
21:58:22 <pikhq> Yes really.
21:58:26 <ais523> in the UK, it's pretty much the opposite
21:58:40 <ais523> if you manage to live until retirement age and somehow still haven't managed to pay off your student loan, it's written off
21:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, it would crash into the limit for a 64-bit clock too early.
21:59:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what would?
21:59:43 <ais523> (and it's paid the same way as tax is, thus unless you move abroad or something like that, it's basically impossible to fail to pay it off if you can afford to)
22:00:03 <Vorpal> * Phantom_Hoover wonders whether to write "Journey to Alpha Centauri" for real. <-- what was/is that
22:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, game from one of Pratchett's books.
22:00:36 <pikhq> It's nearly impossible to get out of student loans without just paying them off in the US...
22:01:03 <pikhq> Lessee. Permanent and total disability.
22:01:23 <pikhq> Courtesy of the "bankruptcy reform" bill of 2005.
22:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> It shows a little white dot on the screen, and if you wait for 2 million years or so, the dot fills the screen, and it shows a message saying "You have reached Alpha Centauri. Now go home."
22:01:39 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe you should just play a few games of Desert Bus and see if it cures you of that idea.
22:02:01 <ais523> you could effectively get rid of them by taking out a loan to get the money to pay them off, then defaulting on that loan, but it seems a pretty bad idea
22:02:18 <ais523> especially as nobody should sanely offer you that loan in the first place
22:02:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh Johnny books?
22:02:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I seem to remember it now
22:02:32 <ais523> also, the advantage of that over Desert Bus is that at least you don't have to be at the controller all that time
22:02:52 <pikhq> ais523: Sane loan offers? The US? HAH!
22:03:12 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe you should just play a few games of Desert Bus and see if it cures you of that idea. <-- desert bus?
22:03:20 <pikhq> ais523: Until recently, people were taking out 4th mortgages. I wish I were joking.
22:03:55 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and just about any moron with the ability to breath can get a bunch of credit cards. Still.
22:04:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: See something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Bus -- but to summarize, you drive a bus for 8 hours, continuously, at a straight road with no other traffic, and the bus veers slightly so that you can't just tape the gas button down.
22:04:37 <pikhq> America: the nation of morons.
22:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, would I be wrong to assume that you are active in politics?
22:04:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Not wrong at all.
22:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> But I thought the US system screwed anyone more than very moderately left?
22:05:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hell, screws anyone not right.
22:06:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, indeed.
22:06:20 <pikhq> I hate it and I'd like out of the crazy-go-round please.
22:06:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Look at the fuss over something as simple as Obama's healthcare bill.
22:07:22 <pikhq> (dear God Japan has more liberal labor laws. And these guys have overworking as a major *cause of death*)
22:07:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but that's primarily cultural, isn't it?
22:08:01 -!- trinithis has joined.
22:08:14 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yes.
22:08:24 <pikhq> Japanese corporate culture is... Kinda stupid.
22:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Thought so.
22:08:43 <pikhq> "Work all day, drink all night, fuck having any life outside of work!"
22:08:43 * Phantom_Hoover decides to query Japanese Friend.
22:09:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:10:40 -!- Sgeo|web_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:10:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Japanese Friend agrees with pikhq.
22:12:44 <cpressey> oh hah
22:12:59 <cpressey> due to the discussion of labor laws, I assumed Desert Bus was a job rather than a video game.
22:13:30 <cpressey> like, the non-stop Phoenix-Las Vegas-Los Angeles run, or something.
22:13:49 <cpressey> Well, i guess having Vegas in the middle means there is ONE stop. OK.
22:14:18 <pikhq> http://i.imgur.com/DT2eQ.gif Seriously. The fuck?
22:14:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:15:16 <Phantom_Hoover> MADNESS
22:16:14 <pikhq> Oh, and there's categories of employees exempt from overtime laws.
22:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> WHAt
22:16:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Examples?
22:17:24 <pikhq> "Administrative, professional and executive employees".
22:17:49 <pikhq> Namely, white collar jobs.
22:19:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, I would have expected some sane list like "nuclear reactor workers in case of emergency, or if everyone else on the other shift died"
22:19:43 <Vorpal> similar for firefighters and so on
22:19:48 <Vorpal> in case of emergencies
22:20:02 <pikhq> Rather than the majority of workers?
22:20:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah
22:20:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, so these people don't get paid overtime?
22:20:32 <Vorpal> or what?
22:21:04 <pikhq> Are not required to be paid overtime.
22:21:17 <pikhq> And, in fact, could be required to work, say, 24 hours a day.
22:22:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm. Unpaid for this overtime?
22:22:29 <Vorpal> wtf
22:22:48 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
22:22:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:23:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: Salary.
22:23:23 <cpressey> pikhq: yup, that's me
22:23:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, the employer loses on it, sleep deprived workers are less efficient
22:23:46 <cpressey> time is an illusion in corporate america
22:24:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, wrong. Corporate US.
22:24:19 <pikhq> Oh, exempt employees are *also* exempt from minimum wage laws.
22:24:20 <Vorpal> America is a lot more than just US
22:25:08 <cpressey> Vorpal: the phrase is "corporate america" whether you think it's wrong or not. no one says "corporate US".
22:25:34 <Vorpal> cpressey, so what about South America? Mexico? Canada?
22:25:56 <cpressey> Vorpal: you're being ridiculously pedantic here
22:26:43 <Vorpal> no. I'm being non-US-centric
22:27:31 <Vorpal> cpressey, "ridiculously pedantic" would include Panama and so on in the North America list apart from Mexico and Canada.
22:27:32 <cpressey> Vorpal: then at least be pedantic enough to call it "USA", not "US".
22:27:42 <Vorpal> well, not sure about Panama, but some small countries
22:27:56 <Vorpal> cpressey, indeed I would in Swedish. Everyone says USA about USA here
22:29:07 <cpressey> check and mate!
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22:29:45 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm? Chess reference?
22:33:00 <cpressey> Vorpal: What? Why would I make a reference to the game of chess? What possible relevance could that have to anything?
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22:33:37 <Vorpal> cpressey, what did you mean by that then
22:34:33 <GreaseMonkey> cpressey: "i pawned you"
22:36:06 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, :D
22:36:27 <Vorpal> hm btw, I think this line contains a chess reference
22:36:31 <Vorpal> if I remember correctly
22:36:52 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, can you spot it?
22:37:03 <Vorpal> it is worthy of oerjan
22:37:20 * Vorpal prods GreaseMonkey
22:37:25 <GreaseMonkey> nope
22:37:39 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, "En passant (from French: in passing)", in passing, by the way
22:37:40 <Vorpal> :P
22:37:41 <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/milky_makes_me_feel.mod
22:37:44 <GreaseMonkey> oh, right
22:39:54 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/milky_makes_me_feel.mod <-- augh please include a warning like "this is not something that Gregor would have composed" :P
22:40:17 <GreaseMonkey> it was done for a one hour compo
22:40:28 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, besides you do something strange with left/right channel, sounds like optimised for speakers, rather than headphones
22:40:32 <GreaseMonkey> also if you want something more cheerful: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/gm-poo.it
22:40:39 <Vorpal> since there is no sound of the opposite side on the other end
22:40:47 <Vorpal> which soulds horrible in headphones
22:40:58 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: what are you using to play it?
22:41:06 <GreaseMonkey> mikmod hard-pans
22:41:11 <GreaseMonkey> i think libmodplug soft-pans it
22:41:11 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, vlc
22:41:15 <GreaseMonkey> which is libmodplug
22:41:21 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, is the package in arch
22:41:26 <Vorpal> I don't feel like compiling anything
22:41:28 <Vorpal> not even AUR
22:41:28 <Vorpal> atm
22:41:44 <GreaseMonkey> as in: vlc, which is libmodplug.
22:41:50 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, hm okay
22:42:00 <GreaseMonkey> milkytracker normally softpans too AFAIK
22:42:27 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, so vlc should soft pan?
22:42:32 <GreaseMonkey> theoretically
22:42:52 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, okay. Well it doesn't for me. Besides can't you set that in the file?
22:43:05 <GreaseMonkey> thing with the .mod format is it's always L/R/R/L
22:43:13 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I'm pretty sure MIDI has some 127-step pan value or such
22:43:16 <Vorpal> if not more
22:43:38 <GreaseMonkey> the .it format has 65 steps (0 through 64, 32 being centre) as well as "surround" (flip right channel)
22:43:43 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/gm-poo.it at least doesn't hard pan
22:43:54 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, but not my style either
22:44:00 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I prefer acoustic :)
22:44:37 <GreaseMonkey> the point of gm-poo.it (it's an edited 1hc entry) was to make it incredibly cheesy
22:44:39 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, love violins played solo.
22:45:02 <Vorpal> letting them just form strings in the background is a sad waste of the capability
22:45:08 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and yes it is
22:45:32 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, btw what is 1hc?
22:45:38 <GreaseMonkey> one hour compo
22:45:46 <fizzie> Aka "fast music" in other places.
22:45:46 <GreaseMonkey> (competition, usually)
22:45:48 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, so it plays in a loop for 1 hour or what?
22:45:55 <GreaseMonkey> it's made in an hour
22:45:56 <fizzie> You have one hour time to make the thing.
22:45:57 <Vorpal> ah
22:46:05 <Vorpal> can't you plan ahead?
22:46:28 <fizzie> Usually they give out samples or chords or something that you're supposed to use, to show that it's made after those were released.
22:46:36 <fizzie> (But of course you can prepare.)
22:46:36 <GreaseMonkey> i guess but you can't guarantee that you have the right samples for it
22:46:52 <Vorpal> ah
22:46:54 <GreaseMonkey> and you can't actually bash the pattern data in beforehand
22:47:21 <Vorpal> true, but you can think of a general melody and so on
22:47:35 <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/gm-pond.it is kinda fun, if you don't like drums then try muting channels 08 through 11
22:47:40 <GreaseMonkey> do you have a hex editor?
22:47:55 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I have emacs :P
22:48:08 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I'm pretty sure I used some hex mode in it before
22:48:21 <Vorpal> and I have bless, which is some semi-crappy gnome based hex editor
22:48:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: And dd.
22:48:43 <GreaseMonkey> 0x0088: change 40 40 40 40 to 00 00 00 00
22:48:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, and ed!
22:49:13 <Vorpal> ah, M-x hexl-mode
22:49:13 <GreaseMonkey> i've got khexedit and hexedit on this
22:49:15 <fizzie> Ooh, especially zeroing will be easy with just dd.
22:50:12 <GreaseMonkey> if you're concerned about electric, imagine it's an acoustic bass (it could well be actually)
22:50:24 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and I have nothing against drums in general. Only because that would leave no way to describe the hate I feel for organs in general and church organs in particular
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22:50:46 <GreaseMonkey> hmmkay
22:51:07 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and electric guitar is fine as long as there is absolutely no overdrive or other screech noises
22:51:44 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, still sounds very electronic. Nothing like an acoustic recording
22:52:04 <GreaseMonkey> hmmkay
22:52:06 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, you would need some rather low end earbuds to not hear the difference :P
22:52:25 <GreaseMonkey> btw, can you guess the instruments?
22:52:38 <GreaseMonkey> one may be a flute
22:52:51 <GreaseMonkey> well, samples, i should say
22:53:03 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: this is your .mod?
22:53:15 <GreaseMonkey> cpressey: yeah
22:53:16 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, wrt playback device: I'm using Beyerdynamics DT150 Studio Monitoring headphones (circumaural of course)
22:53:37 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: nice. i don't think i could write anything in just an hour
22:53:45 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, so far from those hypothetical crappy earbuds
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22:53:55 <GreaseMonkey> these are "noise-cancelling" ones
22:53:56 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and to me those sound like various rather electronic instruments
22:54:07 <GreaseMonkey> one's a duck quack
22:54:16 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, not sampled?
22:54:20 <GreaseMonkey> btw gm-poo.it actually had pads added
22:54:29 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: i think it was but it's looped
22:54:36 <oerjan> <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, "En passant (from French: in passing)", in passing, by the way
22:54:47 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, well it sounds incredibly electronic to me :P
22:54:50 <oerjan> wait, you think _btw_ counts as a chess reference?
22:54:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes!
22:55:04 <oerjan> that is _not_ a pun worthy of me, in fact it's sheer idiocy
22:55:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, rather far fetched one yes
22:55:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, but yes worthy of yoy
22:55:17 <Vorpal> you*
22:55:22 <Vorpal> and of joy
22:55:25 * oerjan swats Vorpal -----###
22:55:30 <Vorpal> and perhaps of yoy too
22:55:42 <GreaseMonkey> btw this is the original 1hc version of gm-poo.it for comparison: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/pootastic.it
22:55:42 * oerjan does not like the direction of recent pun discussions :D
22:55:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, yoyo!
22:56:07 <GreaseMonkey> (there aren't any pads)
22:56:22 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, pads being?
22:56:31 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: the way i used those "strings"
22:56:37 <GreaseMonkey> basically, soft sounding chords
22:56:43 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, which sort of string instruments
22:56:52 <GreaseMonkey> dunno, they sounded good as pads
22:56:54 <Vorpal> hah
22:57:41 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, also sounds incredibly artificial to me :P
22:59:03 <GreaseMonkey> btw this features a vacuum cleaner sample fed through resonant filters: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/vactopia.it
22:59:06 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I have heard a few mod files (or .it or whatever, that family of file formats anyway) that sounded similar to real acoustic. But note _similar_. Still not the same.
22:59:24 <GreaseMonkey> what, like alternative_samba.mod ?
22:59:43 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, never heard of that. I think it was game music for some open source game
23:00:03 <GreaseMonkey> hmmkay
23:00:15 <Vorpal> blobwars or old old supertux perhaps? Or perhaps some completely different game
23:00:18 <Vorpal> I'm not sure
23:00:37 <Vorpal> I know both of those I mention used mod style files
23:00:48 <Vorpal> supertux switched to ogg later on
23:01:20 <Vorpal> one of the guys imported old music and rewrote it in rosegarden and used high quality soundfonts to render it to good *.ogg
23:01:27 <Vorpal> sounded a lot better
23:01:33 <Vorpal> so I think it can't have been from that
23:02:38 <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/butts/gm-trance.vgm <-- WIP done for sega master system
23:02:55 <GreaseMonkey> also if you want a VGM player: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/stuff/vgmplay.py.txt
23:02:56 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, "http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/vactopia.it" <-- I can't discover any vacuum cleaner
23:03:07 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: Welcome honored guest. I got the key you want! would you like onderves. of Yourself).
23:03:25 <Vorpal> VGM?
23:03:27 <Vorpal> wtf is that
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23:03:47 <GreaseMonkey> sorry, wrong window focusd
23:03:49 <GreaseMonkey> *focused
23:03:53 <Vorpal> ah
23:03:59 <Vorpal> can't vlc play vgm?
23:04:06 <Vorpal> and as I said
23:04:09 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, "http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/mods/vactopia.it" <-- I can't discover any vacuum cleaner
23:05:08 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, your script, what does it require?
23:05:19 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I have jackd + alsa setup here.
23:05:28 <GreaseMonkey> it uses ossaudiodev
23:05:29 <Vorpal> does it need anything crazy like OSS or pulseaudio?
23:05:36 <Vorpal> ah hm compat modules then
23:05:56 <GreaseMonkey> if you're not convinced there's a vacuum cleaner, try listening to it in mikmod
23:06:08 <GreaseMonkey> (it doesn't support filters)
23:06:15 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, I don't have mikmod, nor can I find it in the arch repos
23:06:28 <Vorpal> oh the library is there
23:06:34 <Vorpal> the binary is not
23:06:40 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, long live hardware mixer of sb live 5.1, or this would be painful. (oss stuff)
23:06:47 <GreaseMonkey> hmmkay
23:06:54 <alise> hi
23:07:10 <alise> <Vorpal> does it need anything crazy like OSS or pulseaudio?
23:07:12 <alise> OSS is not crazy :(
23:07:27 <Vorpal> alise, not ossv4 maybe
23:07:50 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:08:04 <alise> yeah ossv4 is nothing like ossv3
23:08:04 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, that .vgm file sounds very screechy?
23:08:09 <Vorpal> is it supposed to be that way?
23:08:36 <Vorpal> alise, I meant the oss-alsa compat stuff in the vanilla kernel
23:08:49 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: it's sega master system - 3 square waves and a noise channel (which can also do a very low duty square)
23:09:17 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, ah explains the painful sound. Not my style simply. I prefer sine
23:09:22 <Vorpal> 57337
23:09:23 <Vorpal> 3579545
23:09:26 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, what was that about
23:09:30 <Vorpal> your script printed that
23:09:43 <GreaseMonkey> first is the length of the noise sequence
23:09:54 <GreaseMonkey> second is the PSG base clock
23:09:57 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, why would anyone want to play noise?
23:10:07 <GreaseMonkey> Vorpal: because some people like to have drums
23:10:20 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, oh fitting description of drums :D
23:10:37 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, but more seriously, how do you get drums = noise
23:10:45 <Vorpal> it seems like nonsense to me
23:10:46 <GreaseMonkey> noise == white noise
23:10:59 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, yes and are drums that?
23:11:14 <GreaseMonkey> no but they can be produced to some extent by using it
23:11:27 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, your track had no drums though?
23:11:40 <alise> This novel is great (so far).
23:11:41 <GreaseMonkey> gm-trance has drums
23:11:51 <GreaseMonkey> (it's also a WIP)
23:12:10 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, didn't sound like ones to me. But then I'm a acoustic fan with high expectations
23:12:19 <GreaseMonkey> yeap
23:12:46 <oerjan> <alise> it's merely a hivemind incident <-- ok _that_ one was worthy of me
23:12:59 <alise> oerjan: wait, it wasn't a joke
23:13:07 <alise> or do you mean
23:13:10 <alise> because of the borg reference
23:13:18 <alise> in which case, yeah, i only realised that after i said it :D
23:16:16 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, if you can reproduce http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Liszt-La_Campanella-Greiss.ogg in one of those mod style formats so it sounds non-artificial I will be impressed
23:16:25 <Vorpal> without using just one huge sample or such of course
23:17:13 <alise> You know, there is room for music outside of acoustic performances of classical pieces.
23:17:27 * cpressey listens to Gorillaz
23:17:29 <Vorpal> alise, indeed. But this was generic challenge
23:17:40 <alise> Mehhh one or two Gorillaz things are nice enough.
23:17:50 <alise> Most of it's rubbish though. (I haven't actually listened to their latest album though.)
23:17:59 <alise> Wow, my tastes are eclectic...
23:18:19 <cpressey> alise: their first album is pretty good overall, with some weak points, yes. their later stuff -- not as good.
23:18:20 <Vorpal> alise, I love zelda - a link to the past music. Which is not classical acoustic.
23:18:25 <GreaseMonkey> that could be pulled off as a .it file, not really a .mod file though as it doesn't have enough channels really
23:18:45 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, well I'm fine with that :)
23:18:53 <alise> cpressey: yeah the first is nice ("Rock the House" is fucking awful though)
23:19:03 <alise> everything after that is patchy
23:19:05 <cpressey> alise: ack. yes.
23:19:08 <GreaseMonkey> i found "shoeshine" irritating
23:19:18 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, but how tricky would reproducing the echos and so on be?
23:19:23 <GreaseMonkey> also yay G minor AFAIK
23:19:36 <alise> <GreaseMonkey> i found "shoeshine" irritating ;; who's this to?
23:19:49 <GreaseMonkey> wrt gorillaz
23:19:50 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and the use of pedal
23:19:53 <cpressey> GreaseMonkey: you mean 19-2000?
23:20:06 <cpressey> i like the vampire song, whatever that one's called
23:20:10 <alise> either you mean 19-2000 or Starshine :P
23:20:14 <GreaseMonkey> perhaps
23:20:18 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, around 4:30-5:00 it sounds hard even for .it to me
23:20:23 <Vorpal> though I'm no .it expert
23:20:41 <alise> the remix of 19-2000 is irritating
23:20:43 <alise> the original is fine
23:20:55 <GreaseMonkey> probably
23:21:02 <alise> anyway
23:21:12 <GreaseMonkey> to get echo going really well i'd have to find out how to sample w/o echo
23:21:29 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, true, and it's echo from walls and such.
23:21:41 <GreaseMonkey> and then feeding it through reverb
23:21:46 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, which gives it a lot more natural feeling that most tracker based music
23:21:47 <GreaseMonkey> or something like that
23:21:53 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, and what about the sustain pedal?
23:22:21 <GreaseMonkey> that's essentially just not doing a note-off when you change notes
23:22:29 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, sustain pedal is not like just holding down the key really, it gives resonance in other strings in the piano that would otherwise be dampened
23:22:35 <Vorpal> so no it is not the same
23:22:43 <GreaseMonkey> in which case i could switch samples
23:22:44 <alise> "Unlike brainfuck Brainfuck-- uses 32 binary bits as a way to store memory, the first 8 bits is used with the input/output instruction, the rest can be used for other things."
23:22:51 <alise> we need a real punishment system for publishing dialects like this
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23:23:17 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, hm indeed. would take a lot of samples. And explains why it takes a 72 MB soundfont file to even get halfway decent piano sound.
23:23:23 <alise> i suggest taking a hint from bed bugs and institutionalise stab rapes
23:23:25 <alise> (http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1604)
23:23:25 <Vorpal> I think that is the smallest soundfont I have around
23:23:35 <Vorpal> and it is piano only
23:23:36 <alise> psht mt-32 piano is juust fine
23:23:47 <alise> default mt-32 piano, that is, the beautiful thing about the mt-32 was that it was reprogrammable...
23:23:52 <Vorpal> alise, I'm not sure Gregor would agree
23:23:57 <alise> i was joking
23:24:01 <Vorpal> or rather, I'm sure he wouldn't
23:24:02 <Vorpal> :P
23:24:06 <alise> mt-32 actually predated general midi...
23:24:08 <alise> but it wasn't just a sound card
23:24:15 <Vorpal> alise, mt-32 must have been very early yeah
23:24:19 <alise> not THAT early
23:24:24 <alise> 1987
23:24:30 <Vorpal> ah right
23:24:31 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/MT_32.jpg
23:24:33 <alise> it's bigger than it looks there
23:24:35 <GreaseMonkey> i don't think i'll have to cover every note
23:24:37 <alise> pretty heavy too
23:24:40 <GreaseMonkey> on the piano
23:24:42 <alise> but it was nice, you see that display?
23:24:46 <alise> games often used it to put little messages there
23:24:56 <alise> like just the title of the game or whatever, little easter egg for mt-32 users
23:24:59 <GreaseMonkey> but i think i'll have to have several samples per note
23:25:04 <alise> and since the sounds were programmable and it was all analogue it sounded amazing
23:25:04 <GreaseMonkey> anyways, i'm leaving, cya
23:25:21 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, that is an adaption of a violin piece by Paganini to piano. Liszt adapted it. Whatever it sounds like it is pure piano.
23:25:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:25:31 <Vorpal> GreaseMonkey, the bell like effect is from playing near the top of the piano
23:25:35 <Vorpal> meh
23:25:49 <Vorpal> alise, hah
23:25:54 <Vorpal> alise, games used that?
23:26:05 <alise> Vorpal: yes
23:26:11 <alise> the music from them is unreal
23:26:15 <Vorpal> alise, must have been expensive
23:26:19 <Vorpal> to get such a box
23:26:19 <alise> oh, it was
23:26:22 <Vorpal> just to play a game
23:26:24 <alise> pretty much only the devs and a few crazy people had them
23:26:27 <alise> it was for more than games ;)
23:26:35 <alise> but yeah, it was lovely
23:26:37 <Vorpal> alise, didn't it reduce sales of games
23:26:45 <alise> no, they worked on adlib too, and soundblaster
23:26:46 <Vorpal> if you had to have such a thing
23:26:47 <alise> just didn't sound nearly as good
23:26:47 <Vorpal> ah
23:27:01 <Vorpal> alise, yeah but thats roland
23:27:05 * alise tries to find a nice mt-32 game clip
23:27:05 <Vorpal> what do you expect
23:27:16 <Vorpal> alise, Roland *is* good. My digital piano is Roland.
23:27:22 <alise> mt-32 is roland too :P
23:27:27 <Vorpal> alise, exactly
23:27:31 <Vorpal> alise, meaning: good for it's time
23:27:33 <Vorpal> its*
23:27:34 <alise> yeah
23:27:48 <Vorpal> crap compared to my modern sound card I bet
23:28:07 <Vorpal> though, probably better build quality
23:29:29 <alise> no way, the default amidi samples are far superior
23:29:30 <alise> *midi
23:29:35 <alise> and your sound card is NOT reprogrammable
23:29:37 <Vorpal> alise, oh the default ones surely
23:29:40 <Vorpal> alise, actually it is
23:29:41 <alise> this is why mt-32 imitation sounds suck
23:29:42 <alise> Vorpal: well, ok
23:29:46 <Vorpal> alise, it is based on EMU10k
23:29:47 <alise> but nobody reprograms it as well ;)
23:29:50 <Vorpal> alise, so programmable DSP
23:29:52 <alise> Vorpal: two nice mt-32 compositions:
23:29:53 <Vorpal> but yeah no one does it
23:29:58 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3dB0qEcG20#t=0m15s
23:29:58 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApX60Y8djPI#t=4m30s
23:30:02 <Vorpal> but in *theory* mine is reprogrammable
23:30:06 <Vorpal> EAX effects and such
23:30:09 <alise> those #t=s are important
23:30:15 <alise> to avoid a lot of rubbish
23:30:28 <Vorpal> alise, unlikely to work in youtube-dl?
23:30:34 <alise> Vorpal: just download them then skip to that time yourself
23:30:37 <Vorpal> right
23:31:45 <Vorpal> <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3dB0qEcG20#t=0m15s <-- I have heard this on pc-speaker before I think...
23:31:51 <alise> hehe yeah
23:31:54 <Vorpal> or something very similar
23:31:56 <alise> the mt-32 version makes the game so much more hifi :)
23:32:07 <Vorpal> alise, indeed it does
23:32:31 <Vorpal> alise, more hifi than the image :P
23:32:51 <alise> Vorpal: speaking of game music of that era, Monkey Island II (although meant for adlib or soundblaster, not MT-32, by then) has a wonderful thing called iMUSE. It's a point-and-click adventure, you know the type. One of the defining ones, actually... brilliant game. Anyway, iMUSE. It handled seamless transitions in music from one scene to another. This wasn't just cross-fading. Oh no. The current music would continue playing until one of a predefined set of
23:32:52 <alise> points (quite often), and it'd then go the a specific transition (I think some of them were semi-automated from different start/end points) from that part of that music to the new music.
23:32:52 <Vorpal> alise, I would expect zelda oot quality 3D graphics to that sound at least
23:33:36 <alise> So you'd walk into the carpenter's place, and the music would quickly and unnoticeably turn into the carpenter's slightly-different blend of the main music for the town. (Actually his wood chops were synchronised to the beat...)
23:33:52 <alise> You could even walk to the map and go to the very-differently-musiced swamp without anything unnatural happening, because it was all paced programmatically.
23:33:56 <Vorpal> alise, I heard of iMUSE before yes
23:33:59 <alise> yeah
23:34:02 <alise> it was invented for MI2 though
23:34:08 <alise> and it was never used to that extent anywhere else
23:34:18 <Vorpal> I knew it was invented for a game in that series yes
23:34:26 <alise> (MI1/2 are very recommendable plays, incidentally.)
23:34:56 <alise> (I assume you know of ScummVM.)
23:35:00 <Vorpal> I always thought about it, but never got around to it
23:35:16 <Vorpal> alise, does scummvm emulate mt-32 though?
23:35:23 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, actually!
23:35:25 <Vorpal> nice
23:35:27 <alise> Vorpal: You need to get some ROMs.
23:35:29 <alise> But, you know... not hard.
23:35:40 <alise> Then you turn on the MT-32 emulator, point it at them... and voila; almost perfect.
23:35:51 <Vorpal> alise, I played some scummvm games before.
23:35:53 <alise> Not absolutely perfect, obviously; the original MT-32 was analogue.
23:35:57 <Vorpal> but I think those had recorded audio
23:36:11 <Vorpal> cd rom era
23:36:13 <alise> Vorpal: yeah, the CD release of MI1 has the MT-32 tracks recorded onto CD-Audio which it uses
23:36:16 <alise> but it's naff
23:36:19 <alise> because it cuts off just like that
23:36:26 <Vorpal> um?
23:36:28 <alise> like
23:36:31 <alise> when you move somewhere else
23:36:35 <alise> the current sound doesn't even fade out
23:36:40 <alise> it just cuts the sound out and plays the new track
23:36:44 <alise> since it's switching to a new CD track
23:36:46 <Vorpal> ah
23:36:51 <alise> sounds grotesque
23:37:13 <alise> MI1 is a short game (but challenging). MI2 is, like, twice the length or more. And a lot harder.
23:37:29 <alise> Vorpal: listened to those videos?
23:37:46 <Vorpal> alise, waiting for the second one to download. getting 30 kb/s
23:37:56 <alise> heh, not the best speed
23:38:09 <alise> it's lolworthy how good the music sounds compared to the graphics
23:39:07 <Vorpal> alise, and the MT-32 of the second video sound better than the first half indeed
23:39:29 <alise> the mt-32 theme of the second one is impressive
23:39:35 <Vorpal> indeed
23:39:39 <alise> like, I don't hear "oh, old computer music"
23:39:42 <Vorpal> alise, and yes, the sb is a better match to the graphics quality
23:39:59 <alise> at 7:53 in that second video there's some nice music too
23:40:01 <alise> (the background music)
23:40:19 <alise> the guitar sound is very good
23:40:43 <Vorpal> haven't gotten there yet
23:41:05 <Vorpal> alise, a lot more listenable than the first half
23:41:11 <oerjan> <alise> Vorpal: can you translate "across the universe" for me? <-- genom universum perhaps?
23:41:14 <alise> listening after the main theme is mostly pointless, it's just little blips of flavour music
23:41:21 <alise> oerjan: gehennom universum
23:41:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, that is "through the universe"
23:41:27 <Vorpal> not "across"
23:41:34 <alise> down and out in the universe
23:42:02 <Vorpal> I can't think of word for "across" in this sense.
23:43:27 <alise> From one end of the universe, to the other: across it.
23:44:00 <Vorpal> alise, wrt monky island, I would say that pc speaker version is more impressive. In the sense "wtf, is that possible with a pizeo electric buzzer!?"
23:44:13 <Vorpal> spelling?
23:44:50 <oerjan> Vorpal: i think "across" is pretty much a synonym for "through" in the context of that song quote
23:45:14 <Vorpal> hm perhaps
23:45:23 <Vorpal> "across the field" would be quite different
23:45:43 <alise> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DLoSAb1-bc
23:45:46 <alise> pc speaker monkey island 2 opening
23:45:52 <oerjan> although, maybe "tvärs genom" would be better? except for rhythm of course
23:45:53 <alise> even more impressive than MI1's
23:46:06 <alise> especially the arpeggios
23:46:09 <alise> which sound better on a real pc speaker
23:46:18 <oerjan> or wait
23:46:27 <Vorpal> alise, I know
23:46:31 <oerjan> that's actually further from the original meaning
23:46:34 <alise> ((What it's meant to sound like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lTz2nkPNXA))
23:46:37 <Vorpal> alise, I'm already listening to it
23:46:46 <alise> heh
23:47:39 <Vorpal> alise, I just found it on /mnt/old-disk-images/mnt/gentoo/home/anmaster/tmp/misc/7DLoSAb1-bc.mp4
23:47:52 <alise> lunatic :P
23:48:00 <Vorpal> alise, which indicates a malfunction in /mnt/old-disk-images/mount-stuff.sh
23:48:06 <alise> lunatic.
23:48:07 <Vorpal> since it is supposed to go to /mnt/gentoo
23:48:13 <Vorpal> not /mnt/old-disk-images/mnt/gentoo
23:48:21 <cpressey> fascinating.
23:48:26 <Vorpal> alise, so not quite as lunatic as it might look like
23:48:27 <alise> fascinating.
23:48:30 <Vorpal> :P
23:48:44 <alise> Vorpal: no, no, that isn't the lune part
23:48:45 <oerjan> or is it. tvärs genom _would_ mean from one end to the other, i think.
23:48:50 <alise> (what is the adjective of something relating to a lunatic?)
23:49:00 <cpressey> lunar
23:49:01 <Vorpal> alise, however while checking the various youtube files in it I found the autotuned Carl Sagan too
23:49:24 <Vorpal> alise, which bit is the lunatic part?
23:50:07 <alise> the fact that you (1) have a script to (2) mount disk images from old systems you have archived which (3) includes your temporary files, and (4) you actually looked at it before trying to (5) download a video from YouTube instead of just manning up and installing Gnash or something.
23:50:07 <Vorpal> alise, for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
23:50:13 <alise> i know
23:50:14 <alise> :P
23:50:27 <Vorpal> alise, and those tmp files are not really tmp. Well it started out as tm
23:50:29 <Vorpal> tmp*
23:50:33 <Vorpal> but ended up permanent
23:50:37 <oerjan> alise: tricky, since -ic already means related to, and has been nouned _from_ an adjective there
23:50:39 <alise> Good name for a permanent directory.
23:50:46 <alise> (I use ~/Saved for that kind of stuff. Or, well, did.)
23:50:48 <alise> oerjan: lunaticic
23:50:52 <Vorpal> alise, and that disk image was from ddrescue, I don't edit anything on it
23:50:56 <alise> lunattic
23:51:01 <Vorpal> beyond the initial fsck
23:51:11 <oerjan> lunatical, perhaps, mixing even more greek and latin
23:51:56 <Vorpal> alise, wrt: (4) and (5): I knew it was in that dir, and there are like 4 youtube videos in there
23:52:07 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: wI9% tNO CARRIER).
23:52:09 <alise> lunatical, a beautifully lunatical word
23:52:11 <Vorpal> quicker to check them than googling for it
23:52:25 <alise> Vorpal: see what i did is i clicked a link and the video played :)
23:52:34 <Vorpal> alise, because I linked it!
23:52:40 <Vorpal> wait hm
23:52:41 <Vorpal> no
23:52:46 <Vorpal> that was a different one
23:53:00 <Vorpal> alise, you had to find the link though
23:53:13 <oerjan> "nouning" is nicely verbed, adjectivally speaking
23:53:34 <oerjan> er, *"nouned"
23:53:44 <alise> Vorpal: yeah i typed "monkey island 2 pc speaker", pressed enter, then clicked the first link on google, which was to a video
23:53:53 <alise> it was... strenuous :)
23:53:56 <Vorpal> alise, no sound in 6lTz2nkPNXA ?
23:54:09 <Vorpal> or vlc fucking up
23:54:15 <alise> WFM
23:54:18 <Vorpal> or hm .flv, did those have sound last?
23:54:20 <alise> Vorpal: it doesn't start with sound
23:54:25 <Vorpal> aha
23:54:29 <alise> it's a cold open
23:54:30 <alise> on a video game :)
23:54:39 <alise> (you run MONKEY2.EXE, and that appears straight away)
23:54:49 <oerjan> alise: lunattic, like a place to keep mad old relatives?
23:54:53 <alise> oerjan: or the moon
23:54:56 <Vorpal> alise, how lunatic
23:55:02 <Vorpal> to have quietness in a video game
23:55:13 <alise> Vorpal: the rest of the game has (great) music :-P
23:55:20 <Vorpal> right
23:56:11 <Vorpal> ah now it works here
23:56:12 <alise> well technically you ran MONKEY2 and it probably did its copy-protection thing (you had to give something from the manual -- or something) and then asked you if you wanted the real or lite (easy) version
23:56:18 <alise> then it went to the cold open
23:56:35 <Vorpal> alise, is "<alise> ((What it's meant to sound like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lTz2nkPNXA))" mt-32?
23:56:36 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=290XnObHxVs ;; oh, I do like the Amiga opening
23:56:39 <alise> Vorpal: no; adlib or soundblaster
23:56:45 <alise> mt-32 doesn't sound as good on MI2
23:56:52 <alise> since by then they realised /nobody/ bloody had one (1991)
23:56:59 <alise> so they optimised for the cards people actually had
23:57:08 <Vorpal> and it sounds better there then?
23:57:19 <Vorpal> it sounds quite nice, though not mt-32 quality
23:57:24 <alise> yeah
23:57:32 <alise> ha, MI2 came on *11 disks* for the Amiga
23:57:56 <alise> dammit, now i have to play the games again *sigh*
23:58:05 <alise> nostalgia can be like heroin. well, only if you're Sgeo
23:58:19 * alise installs ScummVM in advance
23:58:25 <alise> life's good!
23:59:26 <Vorpal> alise, wait a second. Nostalgia? How so?
23:59:38 <alise> I played them (badly) as a kid.
23:59:46 <Vorpal> alise, ah, they are before your time though
23:59:47 <Vorpal> by far
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