←2010-09-21 2010-09-22 2010-09-23→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, I would excuse the calculator on the grounds that everyone does it that way it seems
00:00:07 <Vorpal> unless you are doing a CAS
00:00:20 <Vorpal> in which case you don't try to emulate a calculator
00:00:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, but here's the thing: the menu/interface type thing is the normal UI convention on Windows. Except for the things that decide "fuck you".
00:00:52 <Vorpal> ah
00:01:03 <Gregor> Most of which are Microsfot things.
00:01:07 <Gregor> But not ALL Microsfot things.
00:01:08 <alise> pikhq: I think the only UI-abusing Windows application that's actually got it right is Chrome.
00:01:33 <pikhq> alise: Probably. It actually doesn't feel like it's abusing the UI at all.
00:01:36 <Vorpal> why do games get away with it
00:01:41 <Vorpal> and no one complains
00:01:52 <Gregor> Bleh, hate Chrome's UI.
00:02:07 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because those run effectively single-tasked as the sole program on the system.
00:02:15 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
00:02:32 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm most have pretty extreme UIs though
00:02:41 <Gregor> Yes, but they're not integrated into the system.
00:02:48 <Vorpal> well yeah
00:02:52 <Gregor> They're not an application in that you don't multitask with them.
00:02:52 <Vorpal> mines is consistent I guess
00:02:59 <Gregor> They're like a reboot.
00:03:04 <Gregor> Without the reboot.
00:03:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, you don't know how I play then
00:03:28 <Vorpal> I always play windowed and pause if anything interesting happens on irc
00:03:34 <Vorpal> now, night →
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00:08:49 <alise> yes, but you are also boring.
00:08:53 <alise> and hate fun.
00:09:04 <alise> pikhq: Consultant #1, get your ass over to #mitosis.
00:09:10 <alise> I hereby consult you on this matter.
00:16:02 <alise> pikhq: You are violating your contract.
00:17:59 <Sgeo> Oooh
00:18:04 <Sgeo> Factor 0.94 was released
00:21:49 <alise> i really wish slava died before he could invent factor.
00:21:57 <quintopia> anyone here played world of goo?
00:22:02 <alise> no, but it sounds fun enough to play sometime
00:22:37 <quintopia> i just finished the demo
00:22:43 <quintopia> considering pirating the rest >.>
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00:23:39 * Sgeo feels a very, very strong urge to teach Haskell to someone
00:24:34 * quintopia hugs Sgeo
00:37:25 <alise> Sgeo: teach it to me.
00:37:30 <alise> i've suffered from amnesia
00:39:43 <Sgeo> First thing to know: Functions are not like functions in most languages. Functions in Haskell only depend on arguments. So addition, (+). 1 + 1 is always two. All functions in Haskell behave like this
00:40:14 <Sgeo> So you can't have a function that returns a random number
00:40:22 <Sgeo> You can't have a function that reads input
00:40:23 <Sgeo> etc.
00:40:54 <Sgeo> Haskell does have a way of dealing with this, but first, we should learn about types
00:41:05 <quintopia> what he's saying is, there are not procedures without monads
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00:41:21 <quintopia> or I/O type iirc
00:41:40 <Sgeo> quintopia, alise doesn't actually not know this stuff
00:41:49 <Sgeo> E just wants to see if I have any teaching ability
00:42:06 <quintopia> and i'm critiquing it to align more with your audience :D
00:42:29 <quintopia> this crowd prefers mathematical rigor, i think
00:42:54 <alise> Sgeo: no, actually
00:42:56 <quintopia> sorry. please continue.
00:43:18 <alise> i was already 99% sure you had no teaching ability, like almost everyone else including me, because teaching is really hard and not many people can do it at all
00:43:20 <alise> i'm just saving someone else
00:44:43 <Sgeo> Anyways, things in Haskell have types. However, the type system in Haskell is more elaborate than in, say, C++
00:45:06 <quintopia> lol <3 alise
00:45:28 <Sgeo> Bleh, it's hard for me to do this over IRC
00:45:38 <quintopia> i'm actually not such a bad teacher, but i know that this is not a good environment for the teaching
00:45:40 <Sgeo> I sort of want to be in front of the person, demonstrating syntax stuff
00:45:41 <quintopia> also what sgeo said
00:46:13 <alise> even if you feel like you're teaching well you probably aren't :p
00:46:23 <alise> you in general, not just specific-you
00:47:07 <Sgeo> Syntax: a :: Sometype means that a has Sometype. Unlike many statically-typed languages, you often don't need to write types out
00:47:17 <quintopia> you must have high standards for the teaching
00:47:19 <Sgeo> The type of 'a' is Char
00:47:32 <Sgeo> If you have GHCi open, type :t 'a'
00:47:40 <quintopia> i think of a teacher as no more than a guide to point a student in directions of interest
00:49:04 <Sgeo> Strings, delimited with "", like "this", are of type [Char]
00:49:14 <Sgeo> [Char] means a list of Chars
00:50:10 <Sgeo> This can also be written as String. String is, in fact, a synonym for [Char]. It's easy to define your own synonyms for types
00:51:04 <Sgeo> Numbers are a bit different.
00:51:13 <Sgeo> Try :t 5
00:51:14 <ais523> quintopia: well, my day job's teaching Java
00:51:20 <ais523> but I don't have to do it all by myself
00:51:33 <Sgeo> You'll see the type is (Num a) => a
00:51:37 <ais523> (and personally, I think it's an awful choice for a first language to learn)
00:51:51 <ais523> my other day job is more interesting
00:52:13 <quintopia> ais523: agreed. but what are your usual methods?
00:52:20 <Sgeo> Essentially, what this means is that within the stuff to the right of the =>, a is in the Num class. Don't worry about what this means just yet.
00:52:32 <ais523> System.out.println's used quite a lot while you're learning
00:52:41 <ais523> have I deliberately misinterpreted your question?
00:52:53 <quintopia> have you?
00:52:55 <Sgeo> Only you can know that
00:53:12 <ais523> well, I may have deliberately tried to misinterpret it, but accidentally interpreted it correctly
00:53:38 <quintopia> it was a useful answer, but not exactly what i was looking for no
00:53:47 <quintopia> i was thinking more along the line of how you interact with the students
00:53:50 <quintopia> at what level
00:54:01 <quintopia> how to manage the process/plan etc.
00:54:05 <ais523> taking tutorial classes, and marking work
00:54:11 <ais523> I'm not the main teacher for the course
00:54:21 <quintopia> aha
00:54:30 <ais523> you get the most teaching done during the marking, because the student is there and you can explain the things they got wrong to them one-on-one
00:56:47 <quintopia> exactly
00:56:53 <quintopia> that's the part i like
00:57:46 <alise> <Sgeo> Syntax: a :: Sometype means that a has Sometype. Unlike many statically-typed languages, you often don't need to write types out
00:57:47 <alise> not true
00:58:01 <alise> (a :: t) at the top level declares a to have type t -- which, obviously, doesn't typecheck if a isn't actually of type t
00:58:12 <alise> but as an expression, (a::t) coerces a to type t, if a can be coerced to type t
00:58:19 <alise> for instance, 5 is (Num a) => a, but (5::Integer) works
00:58:36 <Sgeo> :/
01:04:49 <Sgeo> Why is Flash player randomly crashing on me?
01:05:12 <alise> pikhq: what
01:05:17 <pikhq> Texas recently ruled that proof of innocence is not a reason to give someone a new trial.
01:05:25 <pikhq> Just a technical mistake in a previous trial.
01:05:32 <pikhq> Yes, really.
01:05:35 <alise> Heh.
01:05:44 <pikhq> They have the death sentence.
01:05:47 <alise> ^__^
01:05:47 <pikhq> And use it regularly.
01:05:54 <alise> pikhq: Really, the only cure is #mitosis.
01:06:01 <alise> Which from, I now depart.
01:06:02 <alise> Goodnight.
01:06:02 <pikhq> I prefer Texicide.
01:06:03 <alise> Bye.
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01:06:20 <Sgeo> pikhq, linky?
01:06:54 <pikhq> Oh, sorry. *US SUPREME COURT*
01:06:59 <pikhq> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-c-fathi/shouldnt-innocence-matter_b_298507.html
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01:07:28 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to sign up for the GOP newsletter
01:07:55 <Sgeo> Need to get some balance in my email reading material, see if it's as nutty as I'm imagining
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01:08:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: Keep in mind they support a man who claims that Bush torturing innocent people was not cruel & unusual punishment because they were innocent and therefore it was not punishment.
01:09:08 <pikhq> You may now have your head asplode.
01:09:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, are they merely trying to say that on some technical level, it was legally ok, but not necessarily morally?
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01:10:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, they are saying that he is innocent but was charged in a "fair trial" and, as such, he shall be put to death.
01:10:29 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Sorry. Different context.
01:10:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: They are saying that it was legally OK and they don't even *care* about the morals.
01:10:59 <pikhq> Honest to god.
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01:13:11 <pikhq> Aaand there shall be no repeal of DADT coming, because the Republicans are willing to fillibuster the defense authorization bill to do so.
01:13:22 <pikhq> (the bill that keeps the military going for another year)
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01:24:42 <Sgeo> tbh, it should not have been in the defense authorization bill, imo
01:25:34 <quintopia> put it in the omnibus, why not?
01:27:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's de facto the omnibus "everything to do with the military" bill, and has been for ages.
01:27:28 <pikhq> Sure, it shouldn't be there, but it's not like it's some bizarre politicing.
01:27:33 <pikhq> Just retarded tradition.
01:28:00 <Sgeo> Suppose it never gets passed.
01:28:02 <Sgeo> What happens?
01:28:11 <pikhq> The military stops.
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01:36:29 <Gregor> ... omg. Yes. Awesome X-D
01:37:03 <quintopia> ?
01:37:34 <Gregor> Filibustering the defense authorization bill.
01:37:47 <quintopia> mm
01:38:41 <quintopia> i need to listen to some behavior
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01:59:29 <Gregor> It seems to have been concluded that if DADT is repealed, the US troops in Afghanistan will instantly drop their weapons (and drawers) and have a whole-country gay orgy.
02:00:13 <quintopia> hurray!
02:01:00 <quintopia> how many republicans do we need to assassinate to make that happen?
02:01:22 <quintopia> if we just took out the filibusterer, would there be enough confusion in the following moments to get it through?
02:01:53 <Gregor> Naw, that would just get the legislation back on the table.
02:02:12 <pikhq> Gregor: Whole-country gay orgy would certainly be an improvement.
02:02:44 <pikhq> If that would be what DADT would cause, if I were Obama, I would immediately order a whole-country gay orgy after signing the bill.
02:02:51 <Gregor> I should've chosen my innuendo-words more carefully, as they will most certainly not be /dropping/ their weapons :P
02:03:43 <quintopia> their rifles or their guns?
02:04:23 <Gregor> Hyuk
02:06:03 <quintopia> i feel sorry for the women in this campaign. their gay orgy won't be as big :/
02:06:51 <pikhq> But it shall be hot.
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02:21:57 <Gregor> I wonder if the fact that mmap is crazy-slow here is just because it is, or because I'm running this on qemu-system-arm ...
02:22:30 <pikhq> Something is probably up.
02:25:02 <Gregor> mmapping 64MB = crazy-slow.
02:25:30 <Gregor> Running these tests (that mmap three 64MB regions) takes 14 seconds.
02:34:20 <pikhq> That's absolutely bizarre.
02:34:41 <pikhq> mmap should take not very long.
02:34:49 <pikhq> Just a matter of rewriting the page table, after all.
02:35:33 <pikhq> I'm going to guess that qemu-system-arm has its own, retarded, implementation of mmap.
02:41:25 <Gregor> Yeah, probably.
02:41:33 <Gregor> I should try extracting the binary and running it under qemu-arm
02:43:37 <Gregor> Sure enough, runs great on qemu-arm.
02:43:41 <Gregor> Probably just qemu-system-arm.
02:43:56 <Gregor> 300ms on qemu-arm, 14sec on qemu-system-arm :P
02:44:04 <pikhq> That's about right.
02:44:28 <Gregor> (And 170ms native)
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03:03:27 <quintopia> is there a completely general funge interpreter out there? where dimension, delta-v=instruction correspondences and wrapping functions are all specified in a config file? and implements the spec completely?
03:04:06 <Sgeo> So, I sent someone a friend request
03:04:24 <Sgeo> Now, in the stream it shows that she (and other people) are attending events
03:04:30 <Sgeo> This is a little bit unsettling
03:05:33 <quintopia> before she accepted?
03:06:41 <Sgeo> Yes
03:06:47 <Sgeo> Actually, she hasn't accepted yet
03:07:06 <quintopia> maybe she doesn't have her events set to hide from friends of friends
03:07:37 <Sgeo> That too, I guess
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03:09:26 <quintopia> can anyone answer my question?
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03:29:58 <Sgeo> Oh look, the "Not now" thing is implemented
03:30:15 <Gregor> quintopia: I don't know of one, but the fungers all seem to be offline.
03:35:35 <quintopia> so who does that leave?
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04:46:00 <quintopia> answer: me, by myself :/
04:46:54 <oerjan> BOOO!
04:47:15 <pikhq> quintopia: ąįųęǫ!
04:47:41 <quintopia> AHHHH SCARY!
04:47:50 <oerjan> (no, i have no idea about your question. well actually i _vaguely_ recall someone mentioning something but no idea what it was called)
04:47:52 <quintopia> damn, i didn't realize i was sitting on the woodwork
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05:20:56 <Gregor> I prefer my pieces of shit stable.
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05:23:49 <oerjan> don't we all
05:28:41 <quintopia> a more solid argument is just more solid bullshit
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05:48:16 <quintopia> anyone know if an SD card can be made bootable?
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06:04:07 <Gregor> quintopia: No reason why not, bootable on what?
06:04:09 <Gregor> Standard PC?
06:04:25 <Gregor> If your PC can USB-boot, and you have a USB SD card reader, it can SD-boot.
06:05:06 <quintopia> yeah
06:05:09 <quintopia> i figured out as much
06:05:25 <quintopia> apparently my external card reader can be made to boot, but not the onboard one
06:05:30 <quintopia> good enough for me
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06:07:58 <Sgeo> My computer will only boot from USB maybe 1/20th of the time
06:08:56 <augur> heyo
06:12:54 <lament> ih
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06:25:34 <Sgeo> Gregor, don't forget to breathe
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06:33:38 <augur> lament: soup
06:34:28 <lament> nmuch
06:34:54 <augur> lame
06:36:47 <lament> well
06:36:58 <lament> i got the urtext of mozart's sonatas as a present
06:37:10 <lament> and printed a go board to put on my bathroom door
06:37:27 <lament> and got some mooncake for the midautumn festival
06:37:42 <lament> and got a notice from the landlord reminding that marijuana is illegal
06:38:05 <quintopia> you aren't growing any are you?
06:38:18 <lament> not atm
06:38:30 <quintopia> do you even have a backyard?
06:38:59 <quintopia> (i'm assuming by the fact that your landlord bothers to point this out that you don't have the power to grow it in the basement
06:39:02 <quintopia> )
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07:16:16 * quintopia hands everyone awake a beer on a floppy disk coaster
07:16:33 <quintopia> you are expected not to drink it if you are not of legal age in your place of residence
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12:38:40 <cheater> hi
12:39:08 <cheater> what is a monad
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13:43:44 <oerjan> <cheater> what is a monad
13:43:46 <oerjan> argh
13:46:52 <oerjan> it's a very abstract concept which apparently cannot be understood by most people (even programmers) immediately by any means whatsoever, whether by the strict definition (in haskell _or_ even worse the original category theory), lame analogies with burritos, or heaps of examples. however if you combine all three and stir for a long time, it _may_ eventually click for you.
13:47:51 * oerjan actually never had a problem with it, but then he already had a math phd when encountering them
13:50:15 <fizzie> Wait, I thought it was a member of a people that travels from place to place to find fresh pasture for its animals, and has no permanent home. Or am I thinking of nomad here?
13:51:06 <oerjan> fizzie: cue reddit pun thread
13:51:28 * oerjan was too lazy to try to continue it
13:51:56 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_(disambiguation) still has that "For Haskell Nomads, please see Monad (functional programming)" line.
13:52:34 * oerjan tries to google for "no you are thinking of nomads" without luck
13:54:16 <oerjan> "no you are thinking of" site:reddit.com monad doesn't help either
13:54:39 <oerjan> apparently there is a great reddit pun thread missing here
13:55:31 <oerjan> (on the other hand googling for "no you are thinking of" site:reddit.com may give you a hint of what i was expecting there)
13:57:50 <oerjan> even leaving out reddit doesn't help :(
13:59:24 <fizzie> "No, you are thinking of an archivist. An anarchist is a violet variety of quartz often used in jewelry."
13:59:31 <fizzie> Yes, that sure sounds sensible.
14:01:06 <oerjan> indeed
14:01:39 <oerjan> sensible enough that i think i guessed what the next word is, anyway
14:05:44 <oerjan> ooh hobbit pun day
14:17:03 <fizzie> Stands to reason you'd appreciate them especially.
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14:29:15 * oerjan tried in vain to predict the pun before the last panel
14:31:09 <nooga> panel panel
14:31:13 <nooga> plane
14:31:47 <nooga> lanpe
14:32:06 <oerjan> Panel is a land-locked mountainous country in Asia.
14:32:26 <nooga> biodiesel
14:33:30 <nooga> rhabarbar
14:33:36 <nooga> cucumber
14:34:39 <nooga> and
14:34:43 <nooga> last but not least
14:34:48 <nooga> supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
14:35:31 <nooga> well
14:35:34 <nooga> Methionylglutaminylarginyltyros-ylglutamylserylleucylphen-ylalanylalanylglutaminylleucyllysylgl-utamylarginyllysylglutamylglycylalan-ylphenylalanylvalylprolyphenylalanY-lvalythreonylleucylglycylaspartylp-rolylglycylisoleucylglutamylglutam-inylsErylleucyllysylisoleucylasp-artylthreonylleucylIsoleucylglutam-ylalanylglycylalanylasparthlalanylleucy-lglutamylleucylglycylisoleucylprolylp-henylalanylseRylaspartylprolylleucylal-anylaspartylglycylpRolylthreOnyli
14:35:51 <nooga> only 2k letters, sorry for spam
14:36:03 <oerjan> it got cut off anyhow
14:37:18 <nooga> fear of long words -> Hippopotomonstrosequippeddaliophobia
14:38:00 <oerjan> are you sure that last one is correctly spelled
14:38:49 <oerjan> not that it makes sense anyhow
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15:06:23 <nooga> oerjan: http://ohyeahfacts.tumblr.com/post/1049794757/methionylglutaminylarginyltyros-ylglutamylserylleucylphe
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15:33:16 <alisenix> [ 57.122] (**) Chicony USB 2.0 Camera: Device: "/dev/input/event7"
15:33:17 <alisenix> [ 57.125] (II) Chicony USB 2.0 Camera: Found keys
15:33:21 <alisenix> [ 57.125] (II) Chicony USB 2.0 Camera: Configuring as keyboard
15:33:23 <alisenix> Thanks, X!
15:35:45 <alisenix> 17:08:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: Keep in mind they support a man who claims that Bush torturing innocent people was not cruel & unusual punishment because they were innocent and therefore it was not punishment.
15:35:47 <alisenix> beautiful
15:36:22 <alisenix> 17:28:11 <pikhq> The military stops.
15:36:24 <alisenix> haha wow really?
15:36:31 <alisenix> that would be a hilarious, hilarious day
15:37:53 <alisenix> 19:03:27 <quintopia> is there a completely general funge interpreter out there? where dimension, delta-v=instruction correspondences and wrapping functions are all specified in a config file? and implements the spec completely?
15:37:57 <alisenix> well Language::Befunge does n-dimensional
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15:47:50 <SgeoN1> I am going to cry
15:48:05 <SgeoN1> Ubuntu hates this school's wifi for some reason
15:48:13 <SgeoN1> My phone works just fine
15:48:25 <SgeoN1> Windows used to work just fine
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16:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I keep on thinking there's someone called Phoenix Arizona.
16:46:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn you, Americans
16:47:01 <Phantom_Hoover> *!
16:47:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well there _might_ be. nice way to be hard to google...
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17:21:15 <cheater> someone tell sgeon1 to use wicd
17:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> A network configuration server?
17:22:30 <cheater> wat
17:22:45 <cheater> wicd is a wifi thing
17:23:04 <cheater> also he has to install dhcpd for it because otherwise it's crap
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17:34:03 * Phantom_Hoover → things
17:35:10 <nooga> s;
17:36:09 <cheater> where's ais! :D
17:38:38 <Vorpal> <cheater> also he has to install dhcpd for it because otherwise it's crap <-- ipv6 supports stateless autoconfiguration *runs*
17:42:19 <cheater> no, dhcpd is a dhcp toolkit that wicd can use
17:42:21 <cheater> to connect better
17:42:39 <cheater> or is it dhcpcd
17:42:41 <cheater> something like that
17:43:47 <Vorpal> CC [M] drivers/md/raid6altivec1.o
17:43:47 <Vorpal> CC [M] drivers/md/raid6altivec2.o
17:43:48 <Vorpal> what?
17:44:01 <Vorpal> this is a x86-64
17:44:04 <Vorpal> not a ppc
17:44:56 <cheater> wat
17:50:50 <alise> Windows XP Embedded with Service Pack 2 » applications windows
17:50:51 <Vorpal> cheater, exactly!
17:50:55 <alise> ^_^
17:51:11 <cheater> hello alise
17:51:38 <cheater> check this out, i refactored this shitty app we're using to only 10% the size!
17:51:49 <cheater> actually no, call that 2%
17:51:56 <cheater> am i cool or wat?
17:52:55 <Vorpal> ah it is #ifdefed out
17:53:07 <alise> cheater: wat
17:53:33 <cheater> alise: yes
17:54:00 <cheater> alise: the code i refactored is shrunk from e.g. 100's of lines per method to 2-5 lines.
17:55:33 <alise> what did it do?
17:56:07 <cheater> it's a toxic waste and uranium transport management/stock keeping application
17:58:19 <Gregor> He rewrote the whole thing as "return new Transfer(States::NewJersey);"
17:59:15 <cheater> yes
17:59:37 <alise> cheater: i doubt
17:59:50 <cheater> alise: what do you doubt?
18:00:10 <cheater> the fact that it's reduced by that amount?
18:01:35 <cheater> alise: i have no reason to lie.
18:01:51 <cheater> alise: in fact, i don't remember any time i'd had a reason to lie to anyone in here
18:02:04 <cheater> i lie a lot to chicks i want to impress :p
18:02:18 <cheater> and to people who are prospective sources of jobs :p
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18:06:59 <alise> cheater: i doubt <cheater> it's a toxic waste and uranium transport management/stock keeping application
18:08:33 <cheater> alise: well it is
18:08:40 <cheater> alise: why would you doubt that?
18:08:56 <cheater> something has to manage all that crap
18:09:01 <cheater> do you know how much paperwork it is?
18:09:33 -!- cal153 has quit.
18:09:53 <cheater> if you have an industrial zone then you have to have full documentation and catastrophe plans for every toxic agent that you use there
18:10:14 <cheater> this is one of the main points of this application's existance :D
18:11:13 <cheater> just autogenerating paperwork
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18:12:54 <alise> cheater: oh, paperwork
18:13:03 <alise> i thought you meant it actually handled that stuff
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18:32:24 <cheater> alise__: transport management and stock keeping
18:32:45 <cheater> alise__: what else can you understand under 'handling uranium'?
18:32:49 <cheater> it doesn't run the reactor, no
18:32:53 <cheater> but i never said it did
18:33:00 <cheater> not sure what else you could be thinking of
18:38:21 <alise__> cheater: i meant, like
18:38:23 <alise__> i don't know
18:38:29 <alise__> some automated part of uranium handling :P
18:43:50 <alise__> xDD Windows XP "Embedded" Edition is 3 CDs
18:46:49 <pikhq> alise__: I'm pretty sure that that's courtesy of having a lot of optional stuff.
18:47:15 <pikhq> It wouldn't surprise me if it's got multiple compiled versions of programs for the sake of being able to take out features.
18:47:38 <pikhq> So, yeah, kinda ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as you'd think.
18:47:50 <alise__> pikhq: Yeah: precisely.
18:47:57 <alise__> pikhq: That's why I'm downloading it. Remember MiniXP?
18:48:03 <alise__> It's about to get a whole fucking lot more mini.
18:48:19 <pikhq> Awesome.
18:48:27 <cheater> alise__: win xp PE is the best one i've found so far
18:49:02 <pikhq> alise__: Gotta love having XP as an actually sane OS.
18:49:08 <pikhq> Well, somewhat sane.
18:49:14 <pikhq> It's still Win32, after all.
18:55:17 <alise__> cheater: PE -- the pirate edition thing?
18:56:39 -!- zeotrope has joined.
18:56:54 <cheater> alise__: performance edition
18:56:58 <cheater> i thought there was only one PE
18:58:02 <cheater> i think it was about or under 200 mb
19:00:40 <Vorpal> alise__, where can you find that embedded edition?
19:00:53 <Vorpal> alise__, and um, does that exist for any newer version?
19:01:07 <Vorpal> after all.... xp is kind of... not going to be supported for many years from now
19:03:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Windows Embedded 2009.
19:03:39 <pikhq> Which is itself an updated version of XP Embedded.
19:04:11 <pikhq> XP Embedded should be supported for a few years more, though.
19:04:58 <pikhq> Oh, *groan*
19:05:08 <pikhq> They made a Windows Embedded Standard 7.
19:05:18 <pikhq> Which is about 300MB.
19:05:26 <pikhq> Facepalm.
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19:14:01 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Which is itself an updated version of XP Embedded. <-- how fun
19:14:14 <Gregor> pikhq: Hey, they've always got WinCE ;)
19:14:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, 300 MB is *way* smaller than full 7 Pro at least
19:14:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, which is about 7 GB for the install
19:14:47 <Vorpal> (x86-64, never tried 32-bit version)
19:14:58 <Gregor> That's smaller than Vista.
19:15:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, way bigger than x64 XP though
19:15:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, which iirc is about 2.1 GB
19:16:08 <Vorpal> and that ix x86-64, not 32-bit
19:24:48 <alise__> cheater: yeah that one
19:24:50 <alise__> mine is so cooler
19:26:16 <alise__> cheater: is that the one that replaced the explorer with the win95 one? :)
19:27:17 <cheater> no
19:27:34 <cheater> it doesn't use the xp shell
19:27:42 <cheater> it uses the "classic mode"
19:27:47 <cheater> i.e. basically w2000 shell
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19:29:42 <pikhq> Gregor: Ah, WinCE. An actual, legitimate embedded OS.
19:50:43 <alise__> "Also shit"
19:50:55 <alise__> cheater: there's one -- pirate edition or something -- that actually removes IE completely
19:50:57 <alise__> all the components
19:51:04 <alise__> and substitutes Win 95's explorer
19:51:14 <alise__> since 98 onwards' explorer.exes require IE
19:53:06 <pikhq> One could probably, alternately, substitute in ReactOS's explorer.exe.
19:53:29 <pikhq> (now that it actually acts as a normal explorer.exe instead of a hacked up one)
19:57:03 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:05:53 <alise__> pikhq: nice!
20:05:57 <alise__> pikhq: is there a download anywhere?
20:06:32 <alise__> does anyone know what the standard method is in Ubuntu for scheduling a periodic task?
20:06:34 <alise__> like anacron
20:07:35 <Sgeo> mrr?
20:08:06 <Sgeo> ah
20:08:41 <alise__> pikhq: http://www.foxplanet.de/explorer/
20:08:52 <alise__> is it always in that gross MDI view?
20:10:01 <pikhq> alise__: That looks like the WINE fileman.exe, actually.
20:10:06 <alise__> yeah
20:10:12 <alise__> it's an old site for the reactos explorer, so
20:10:17 <pikhq> I think it can do the more normal SDI view.
20:10:55 <pikhq> It is probably in a CAB on the ReactOS install disk.
20:12:02 <alise__> pikhq: just check out the svn source :P
20:12:32 <alise__> :D it runs in wine
20:13:00 <pikhq> Should also build with Winelib. :P
20:13:10 <alise__> pikhq: HAVE FUN WITH THAT
20:13:21 * alise__ sets to SDI
20:13:40 <alise__> it lists no dir contents :)
20:14:07 <alise__> pikhq: a bigger issue is that the desktop sucks
20:14:12 <alise__> and i see no task bar
20:15:24 <pikhq> alise__: It's probably running as just a file explorer, rather than the shell.
20:15:58 <alise__> nope
20:16:01 <alise__> it gave me a desktop
20:21:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:27:37 <alise__> Frat Tom Hoover
20:27:53 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
20:28:15 <SgeoN1> What's the easiest way to check for damages wifi hardware?
20:28:18 <SgeoN1> Damaged
20:31:39 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Client Quit).
20:31:46 <Sgeo> What's the easiest way to test if the wifi hardware is damaged?
20:33:06 <alise__> pikhq: That was a Consulting Order :P
20:34:58 <Phantom_Hoover> PhatTom Hoover.
20:35:08 <Phantom_Hoover> (Lumenos' name for me, it seems.)
20:35:23 <alise__> pikhq: Do you know what time Astronomy Picture of the Day updates?
20:42:18 <alise__> "Q13: What if I used to be a millionaire but then I believed something I read on APOD and now own only a single dented bucket?
20:42:18 <alise__> A13: There are no guarantees. Use APOD information at your own risk."
20:43:14 <alise__> No seriously when does it update?
20:46:04 -!- ais523 has joined.
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20:46:51 <alise__> hi ais523
20:46:57 <alise__> do you know when Astronomy Picture of the Day updates?
20:48:00 <ais523> no, I didn't even know it existed
20:48:06 <ais523> although it seems a plausible sort of thing to exist
20:53:56 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:54:55 <alise__> ais523: err, it's NASA's
20:54:57 <alise__> been going since 1995
20:55:23 <alise__> anyone know what the simplest way to check if a Linux box has connected to the internet yet from a shell script?
20:55:36 <ais523> that doesn't necessarily mean I had to know it existed
20:55:47 <ais523> alise__: ping something, or check DNS records for something on the Internet at large
20:55:57 <alise__> ais523: i was thinking more ifconfig :-)
20:55:58 <alise__> but interesting
20:56:00 <nooga> linux linux uhuhuhu
20:57:36 <nooga> alise__: fedora pings fedoraproject.org at boot to check if the box is online
20:57:42 <alise__> haha
20:57:46 <alise__> and what if fedoraproject.org goes down?
20:58:09 <nooga> probabyly they're really confident
20:58:15 <nooga> probably*
21:02:53 <Gregor> "And whom are you?!" "What do you mean whom am I...m"
21:06:20 <alise__> No seriously when does APOD update.
21:06:24 <alise__> Is there even a fixed time?
21:08:44 <alise__> pikhq: I will bet you real money on how small I can get a usable XP.
21:19:24 <alise__> pikhq: 1/3 cents
21:19:24 <alise__> :P
21:22:49 -!- ais523 has left (?).
21:22:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:23:22 <alise__> hi cycling ais523
21:23:27 -!- nomed has joined.
21:23:33 <ais523> alise__: it wasn't a deliberate cycle
21:23:40 <ais523> this touchpad is really inaccurate
21:23:55 <ais523> to the extent that it'll occasionally middle-click on something that isn't even near where I thought the mouse pointer was
21:23:59 <ais523> while I'm trying to type
21:25:04 <nomed> |o| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9B1Mzi4oE0&feature=player_embedded
21:26:40 -!- nomed has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:29:05 <ais523> hmm, was that a spambot?
21:29:14 <ais523> not being able to see the link, I have no idea
21:29:31 <alise__> yes
21:36:59 <pikhq> alise__: Any progress/luck?
21:38:46 <alise__> pikhq: On?
21:38:51 <alise__> XPe?
21:38:54 <pikhq> alise__: Yuh
21:38:55 <alise__> I'm going to try installing it ASAP.
21:39:01 <alise__> Stock install in a VM.
21:39:03 <alise__> Then the fun begins.
21:39:07 <alise__> I wonder if nLite works with it.
21:39:13 <alise__> Just in case it has a limit to how much you can remove.
21:47:23 <pikhq> Seems that nLite works with anything that uses the XP installation scheme.
21:47:37 <pikhq> That is, Windows 2000, XP, and Server 2003.
21:50:13 <cheater> alise__: git, hg or bzr?
21:50:24 <alise__> cheater: what i use? git
21:50:28 <alise__> bzr sucks, hg is boring
21:50:30 <alise__> if not git i'd use darcs
21:50:34 <cheater> why does bzr suck?
21:50:39 <alise__> cheater: it's just lame.
21:50:49 <cheater> in what ways?
21:50:56 <alise__> all ways
21:51:01 <alise__> pikhq: But XPe? It has a component-based system.
21:51:01 <cheater> well, expand on that
21:51:01 <alise__> brb
21:51:06 <alise__> cheater: i can't articulate it
21:51:10 <alise__> it's just the most meh VCS ever created
21:51:14 <cheater> i'm pretty much sold on bzr
21:51:21 <cheater> since it feels better than git
21:51:21 <alise__> maybe you're boring
21:51:24 <alise__> no it doesn't
21:51:24 <cheater> might be
21:51:29 <alise__> git has a very solid foundation underneath
21:51:36 <alise__> that of a versioned userspace filesystem -- not a vcs, the vcs is built on top
21:51:42 <alise__> once you grok this, git becomes incredibly comfortable
21:51:43 <alise__> brb
21:53:31 <pikhq> alise__: So does normal XP. Just without a GUI.
21:54:26 <pikhq> cheater: bzr does everything wrong.
21:55:46 <pikhq> Yes, including that. And that.
21:55:48 <pikhq> Also that.
21:59:25 <Vorpal> cheater, I find bzr nicer to use than git
21:59:38 <Gregor> ... wow.
21:59:41 <Gregor> That statement just blew my mind.
21:59:51 <Vorpal> cheater, though for some stuff I find hg more convenient, mostly when dealing with huge repos
22:00:20 <cheater> pikhq: try coming up with something less childish than that
22:00:28 <Vorpal> cheater, bzr is not as fast as hg for really really large (>150 MB source code, thousands of files) repos
22:00:34 <cheater> alise__: a versioned userspace filesystem isn't something i necessarily care a lot about
22:00:38 <pikhq> cheater: Are you familiar with how GNU tends to make stuff?
22:00:52 <cheater> no
22:01:03 <pikhq> bzr is like that.
22:01:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, lucky that bzr was not made by GNU
22:01:15 <cheater> that made no sense.
22:01:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's the replacement for GNU arch, though.
22:01:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, well yes
22:02:32 <Vorpal> order of preference: bzr, hg, darcs, ..., svn, git, cvs, rcs, monotone
22:02:39 <pikhq> I suck at explaining what sucks about it.
22:02:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, just a subjective preference
22:03:00 <Vorpal> same reason I like it
22:03:30 <cheater> pikhq: i was just gonna say you suck at explaining :p
22:03:33 <cheater> glad we agree. :p
22:04:16 <Vorpal> cheater, nothing really wrong with bzr apart from that it can be a bit slow on *really* large repos. If you run into that I suggest using hg.
22:04:18 <pikhq> Well, regardless, we can all agree it's a step up from SVN, CVS, and *shudder* RCS.
22:04:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, monotone is worse than rcs though
22:04:42 <cheater> Vorpal: thx
22:05:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, also I would place that "visual sourcesafe" down near the bottom
22:05:10 <Vorpal> based on what I heard about it
22:05:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: Visual SourceSafe isn't even multiuser.
22:05:27 <Vorpal> ahahah
22:05:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, wait, isn't rcs single user too?
22:06:06 <pikhq> RCS is single *file*.
22:06:37 <pikhq> CVS is a monstrosity consisting of using RCS on multiple files.
22:06:38 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
22:06:44 <Vorpal> hah
22:07:36 <pikhq> And as such lacks things like atomic commits.
22:10:39 <Gregor> SCCS 4tw!
22:10:44 <Vorpal> looks like microsoft dropped it and replaced it
22:10:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, I can one-up you here
22:11:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, Genera's built in file versioning FTW!
22:11:16 <Vorpal> (it only stores a limited number of older versions too!)
22:12:30 <Gregor> "Doright, I ordered you to recruit mounties!" "He's a mounty!" "He's my daughter!"
22:16:58 -!- zeotrope has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:17:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, ?
22:17:47 <Gregor> Quoting non sequiturs = fun :P
22:20:28 <ais523> alise__: I need some help, I think; Wooble is busy completely failing logic again in my paradox attempts (or in this case, a win-by-clout attempt that relies on a false-statement-implies-anything bug)
22:22:16 <Vorpal> ais523, Wooble?
22:22:30 <Vorpal> ais523, um, nomic?
22:22:36 <ais523> Vorpal: yes
22:22:38 <Vorpal> ah
22:24:50 <Vorpal> ais523, it was a classical case of deduction. When you eliminated the gibberish, then whatever is left, no matter how nonsensical, must be the case.
22:26:17 <cheater99> ais523: herlo
22:27:39 <ais523> hi
22:31:17 <cheater99> ais523: so how is a monad different from an extra parameter?
22:31:41 <cheater99> is it different because by default, a function cannot manipulate that extra parameter?
22:31:53 <ais523> cheater99: well, things that aren't one-computation monads can't be implemented with just an extra param
22:32:01 <ais523> you can't do Maybe like that without actually modifying the functions in question
22:32:16 <cheater99> mhm
22:32:17 <ais523> an extra parameter plus some sort of systematic modification is one way to implement monads, incidentally
22:32:19 <Vorpal> also IO monad
22:32:27 <Vorpal> you can't do that as an extra parameter afaik
22:32:38 <ais523> Vorpal: actually, GHC effectively implements IO as an extra-parameter monad
22:32:44 <Vorpal> ais523, wow
22:33:05 <ais523> after all, IO is designed for sequencing of operations wrt the real world
22:33:14 <ais523> but if you break encapsulation to copy the actual parameter, it generally segfaults
22:33:33 <ais523> so the point is, really, that the monads are encapsulated; you can't get at the parameter without using the monad
22:33:35 <Vorpal> ais523, how can you get hold of the extra parameter
22:33:56 <ais523> Vorpal: you need a standard library function, implemented with knowledge of the monad, to retrieve it for you
22:34:00 <ais523> like get in the State monad
22:34:44 <Vorpal> hm
22:35:00 <alise__> ais523: i'll see what i can do
22:35:17 <ais523> supporting my appeal would be nice
22:36:17 <nooga> http://gopherwoodstudios.com/entanglement/
22:36:20 <nooga> this is awesome
22:37:09 <cheater99> ais523: you're playing nomic?
22:37:18 <ais523> cheater99: yes...
22:37:25 <alise__> cheater99: many people are since 1993
22:37:28 <alise__> continuously
22:37:32 <alise__> http://agoranomic.org/
22:37:32 <ais523> I'm a regular in ##nomic
22:37:37 <ais523> and playing two nomcis atm
22:37:39 <ais523> *two nomics
22:39:21 <cheater99> sweet
22:39:24 <cheater99> and?
22:39:32 <cheater99> what's the longest game you played?
22:39:44 <alise__> agora is continuous
22:39:47 <alise__> it has no beginning or end
22:39:51 <alise__> and is the nomic ais523 is currently talking about
22:39:52 <alise__> well
22:39:54 <alise__> beginning is 13
22:39:56 <alise__> but no end
22:40:10 <alise__> *1993
22:40:12 <ais523> agora has a beginning
22:40:16 <ais523> it started in 1993, it's /still going/
22:40:27 <ais523> partly because the rules were modified to not end the game when someone wins
22:40:30 <Vorpal> <nooga> http://gopherwoodstudios.com/entanglement/ <-- fun and just js
22:40:33 <Vorpal> :)
22:41:14 <Vorpal> a nomic with no beginning or end would be impressive
22:41:17 <Vorpal> having always existed
22:43:37 <cheater99> how do they keep it going?
22:43:43 <alise__> <Vorpal> pikhq, monotone is worse than rcs though
22:43:44 <alise__> bullshit
22:43:55 <alise__> monotone may not be the easiest system but it's very well thought-out
22:44:07 <alise__> cheater99: they just keep playing
22:44:11 <alise__> if someone wins, the game keeps going. no change
22:44:21 <ais523> there are lulls sometimes, but normally there's something interesting happening
22:44:27 <ais523> after all, you can always change the rules to shake things up...
22:44:36 <Gregor> Hey kid!
22:44:39 <Gregor> I'm a computer!
22:44:40 <cheater99> how do you win a nomic?
22:44:47 <alise__> cheater99: ...
22:44:49 <alise__> a joke, right?
22:44:49 <ais523> via a win condition...
22:44:54 <cheater99> no
22:44:57 <ais523> nomics have rules, same as any other games
22:44:59 <alise__> quite obviously, "how do you win a nomic?" is an open question
22:44:59 <cheater99> i forgot
22:45:03 <alise__> considering that the rules are *changable*
22:45:05 <ais523> some of them will normally describe how to win
22:45:07 <alise__> *changeable
22:45:20 <ais523> if none of the rules specify a way to win, you can nevertheless win by changing the rules so there is a way to win, then using it
22:45:39 <cheater99> no reason to be prissy. i forgot the definition of nomic.
22:46:03 <alise__> err, yet you were asking questions about how to keep them going?
22:46:04 -!- alise__ has changed nick to alise.
22:46:26 <Gregor> Alternatively, I would say that anybody who changes the rules of a nomic such that it no longer functions as a nomic can consider themselves to have won, even though technically they just stalemated :P
22:46:31 <nooga> Vorpal: 58
22:46:36 <alise> ais523: btw, if you're interested in my schizophrenic OS ramblings there's #mitosis now, though you'd have to be mad to enter
22:46:36 <cheater99> yes
22:46:38 <cheater99> i was
22:46:51 <alise> Gregor: if anyone did that to Agora, several players would probably never speak to them again
22:47:15 <Gregor> alise: This is the /evil/ win, if you don't piss people off then you haven't really won :P
22:47:36 <alise> Gregor: people take the metagaming part of nomic /really/ seriously
22:47:39 <ais523> you'd have most of the rest of the players migrating off to a new nomic
22:47:43 <alise> as in, you can cause havoc inside
22:47:44 <ais523> probably with a rule banning you for life
22:47:48 <alise> but it's very personal to fuck with the nomic itself
22:47:56 <alise> hell, even ... omg what was his name ais523?
22:47:59 <alise> I've forgotten his name
22:48:07 <alise> the moo nomic
22:48:09 <alise> guy
22:48:14 <ais523> I don't know of this
22:48:18 <pikhq> Gregor: This would be the rough equivalent of taking a bulk eraser to each computer with any file you were responsible for.
22:48:18 <ais523> or if I did, have forgotten
22:48:26 <ais523> or if I do know, haven't realised I do based on the available context
22:48:27 <alise> ais523: err, the famous scam
22:48:34 <alise> "go aestivate under a rock somewhere"
22:48:35 <ais523> there've been tens of those
22:48:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:48:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
22:48:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:48:39 <alise> ais523: the original nomicworld
22:48:39 <pikhq> AKA "no jury will convict".
22:48:41 <ais523> hmm, oh in Nomic World?
22:48:43 <alise> the dictatorship scam
22:48:44 <ais523> Lindrum
22:48:47 <alise> right!
22:48:59 <alise> Gregor: even Lindrum was disowned as a rotten person by a large number of people
22:49:09 <alise> and he just (probably didn't actually, but people didn't know that) scammed a dictatorship
22:49:14 <ais523> it was still a nomic, technically
22:49:29 <ais523> imposing a dictatorship on Agora isn't considered bad form if you give it up soon afterwards
22:49:38 <alise> people are more... forgiving of scams like that nowadays, but destroying Agora, a nomic that has existed since 1993...
22:49:38 <ais523> leaving it as a playable nomic
22:49:43 <alise> would basically make people literally IRL hate you
22:49:53 <pikhq> Indeed, the results of that are still in the ruleset.
22:49:57 <pikhq> (the fountain)
22:50:04 <alise> pikhq: there have been more since.
22:50:07 <alise> ais523: Remember the planned outcome of The Scam?
22:50:14 <alise> pikhq: You haven't heard this one, I don't think -- you might like it --
22:50:15 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but the fountain is pretty lasting.
22:50:21 <ais523> I'm still not sure if everyone agreed on that one
22:50:28 <alise> ais523: well, you didn't :-)
22:50:50 <alise> pikhq: The plan was that we were going to *revert the entire ruleset* back to the original, 1993 ruleset. For one week, I think.
22:50:55 <ais523> and it was actually a pretty poor scam, given that comex managed to pull off a much simpler scam a few weeks later with the same effects
22:51:01 <alise> That is: Michael Norrish would *actually be the speaker*.
22:51:12 <pikhq> alise: Oh my dear goodness.
22:51:15 <alise> pikhq: Yes. :D
22:51:29 <cheater99> why is that nice
22:51:29 <alise> pikhq: Then it'd all go back to normal but with everyone permanently paranoid forevermore.
22:51:36 <pikhq> LMAO
22:51:39 <ais523> alise: you couldn't force it back to norma
22:51:41 <ais523> *normal
22:51:42 <alise> cheater99: nostalgia. tradition. Michael Norrish is busy doing actual mathematics and things like that
22:51:47 <ais523> just propose to let it back to normal, and hope people voted FOR
22:51:49 <alise> so he very rarely posts
22:51:53 <alise> and when he does it's in the discussion forum
22:51:57 <cheater99> so he would not be talking at all during that week?
22:52:08 <comex> *speaking at all?
22:52:10 <alise> cheater99: the idea was that we'd ask him to participate, if he didn't mind (and make someone else the speaker if he did mind)
22:52:14 <ais523> I'm sure he'd turn up if the future of Agora depended on it
22:52:16 <alise> (by changing the ruleset)
22:52:22 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:52:23 <alise> ais523: heh
22:52:28 <alise> "No, I like this ruleset. It's simpler!"
22:52:34 <ais523> just like happened in A and B on occasion
22:52:41 <nooga> 63
22:52:51 <pikhq> ais523: He's still an observer IIRC.
22:52:52 <alise> nooga: 4
22:53:02 <alise> pikhq: his last post was saying that spivak pronouns suck, iirc
22:53:08 <pikhq> Mmmf.
22:53:13 <ais523> pikhq: yes, and in practice not just in theory
22:53:14 <alise> and saying they were introduced sometime and he'd have no problem with singular they personally
22:53:19 <ais523> he rarely says anything, but rarely != never
22:53:24 <alise> (introduced sometime = not in the original ruleset)
22:55:07 <alise> ais523: ok, i'll support that appeal now
22:55:18 <alise> pikhq: I will now install XPe in a VM.
22:55:52 <alise> pikhq: μχπ; guess the pun!
22:56:33 <nooga> what is this weird game of nomic?
22:57:12 <pikhq> alise: *groan*
22:57:12 <alise> nooga: weird?
22:57:19 <alise> Agora is pretty much the canonical nomic...
22:57:25 <alise> pikhq: Yes, indeed, "muchipi"; how hilarious!
22:57:36 <GreaseMonkey> http://f.cl.ly/items/a59396292a55e230ac03/2559.gif
22:57:37 <pikhq> alise: MuXP
22:57:46 * pikhq groaneth
22:57:47 <GreaseMonkey> just realised you guys might appreciate this
22:57:57 <alise> pikhq: MicroXP; close enough.
22:58:15 <nooga> the thing is that... nomic is weird itself
22:58:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:58:30 <nooga> i couldn't even find an explanation how to play it
22:58:38 <pikhq> nooga: That's because it varies.
22:58:40 <alise> "Math is the box of the Johnsons."
22:58:43 <alise> nooga: err
22:58:50 <alise> nomic is just any game where you can change the rules
22:58:52 <pikhq> nooga: The defining aspect of a nomic is that the rules are mutable.
22:58:55 <alise> or rather, any game where that is a large activity
22:59:00 <alise> nooga: for instance, here is a starting nomic ruleset
22:59:08 <alise> Rule 1. The rules can be changed with the consent of all players.
22:59:12 <cheater99> why is there no adjective form of holland?
22:59:13 <alise> that's the purest kind of nomic
22:59:16 <ais523> cheater99: Dutch?
22:59:31 <ais523> alise: you need some way to tell who's a player or not; either a rule, or a meta-agreement
22:59:42 <alise> ais523: that's for the Netherlands
22:59:51 <alise> ais523: meta-agreement should suffcie
22:59:52 <alise> *suffice
22:59:52 <ais523> hmm, ok
22:59:56 <alise> generally, it's obvious who's playing a game
22:59:59 <ais523> people tend to use the adjective interchangeably for the two
23:00:00 <pikhq> ais523: For the 1-rule nomic, it's a meta-agreement. At least until things are defined.
23:00:03 <alise> pikhq: XPe install go!
23:00:05 <cheater99> yes but it's not from "holland"
23:00:09 <pikhq> alise: Whoooo.
23:00:15 <nooga> alise: ah, like in a democracy
23:00:22 <pikhq> alise: If you can has success, I may have to set up an XPe image here.
23:00:26 <Vorpal> <GreaseMonkey> http://f.cl.ly/items/a59396292a55e230ac03/2559.gif <-- heh... kind of
23:00:29 <alise> nooga: Nomic /is/ democracy; or at least, anything that can be called nomic more than vaguely
23:00:37 <alise> it was invented by Peter Suber in a book about law
23:00:40 <pikhq> alise: Well, there's royal nomics.
23:00:42 <alise> to study the philosophy of law
23:00:46 <alise> pikhq: which are only technically nomics :P
23:00:49 <pikhq> Where a king gives assent to rules.
23:00:55 <alise> pikhq: I have a link to an XPe + SP2 torrent.
23:01:00 <cheater99> The Netherlands in its entirety is often referred to as Holland
23:01:05 <pikhq> alise: Link; I'll download in a bit.
23:01:06 <cheater99> see that's confusing
23:01:12 <cheater99> holland/netherlands/dutch
23:01:22 <alise> cheater99: that is totally wrong, though
23:01:28 <cheater99> three different words to describe the same shitty little worthless country
23:01:35 <alise> pikhq: http://www.torrentz.com/6c0dc08d5af0aa2249da7b66d027e1819518af2c
23:01:42 <cheater99> alise: holland is the official name of the netherlands in polish, for example.
23:01:46 <alise> we need semantic URI permalinks for torrents
23:01:51 <alise> to avoid linking to a particular tracker
23:01:55 <alise> I wonder if DHT could help there
23:02:00 <cheater99> magnet?
23:02:07 <alise> i think those specify a tracker
23:02:16 <cheater99> dunno
23:02:22 <alise> pretty sure they do
23:02:34 <alise> pikhq: CD 1, 2 or 3? I guess 1.
23:02:41 <alise> It's the smallest though. :P
23:03:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, you linked to a torrent on irc? that isn't done
23:03:07 <Vorpal> err
23:03:08 <Vorpal> alise, ^
23:03:10 <Vorpal> ...
23:03:13 <alise> Vorpal: ...
23:03:15 <Vorpal> you tell people to google
23:03:16 <alise> it's only not done in your fantasy world
23:03:18 <Vorpal> you don't link
23:03:19 <alise> no, i don't
23:03:21 <alise> only irritating people do that
23:03:30 <Vorpal> alise, well for torrents...
23:03:33 <alise> but please, show me the baby i killed and i'll repent.
23:03:39 <alise> pikhq: Preinstallation environment! Fuck yeah!
23:03:46 <nooga> ahah
23:03:47 <nooga> 66
23:03:50 <nooga> i want 75
23:03:53 <alise> pikhq: Wait, how do I use the preinstallation environment?
23:04:05 <Vorpal> alise, screenshot of it
23:04:23 <alise> Vorpal: imagine the blue-mountain-with-moon background of XP, plus a command window opened to X:\i386\system32
23:04:28 <alise> with a disclaimer at the top saying you agree to the EULA if you continue
23:04:30 <alise> that's it
23:04:38 <Vorpal> alise, how boring
23:04:51 <Vorpal> alise, I would have expected something fun
23:05:05 <Vorpal> alise, with at least *one* big red button
23:05:35 <cheater99> i would have expected a blank screen
23:05:43 <alise> pikhq: ...Idiotic idea approaching: Windows PE: The Distribution
23:05:43 <cheater99> with a non-blinking block cursor
23:05:54 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d3/WinPE2005.png ;; well, this is a start
23:05:56 <cheater99> starting out in the top left.
23:08:05 <nooga> wow
23:08:17 <nooga> do i have to read all of 6840 rules to play agora?
23:08:29 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:08:39 <ais523> nooga: there aren't that many rules
23:08:42 <ais523> the rule numbers skip numbers
23:08:45 <alise> nooga: there aren't even close to that many rules :P
23:08:54 <alise> nooga: read comex's fancy SLR
23:08:57 <ais523> alise: this seems to be a common misapprehension, maybe
23:09:08 <ais523> I think my Website Submission clears it up, but it might not
23:09:18 <alise> hmm, where's comex's thing?
23:09:19 <alise> with the mouseovers
23:09:23 <Vorpal> night →
23:10:34 <alise> pikhq: wait, didn't you take part in the fountain?
23:11:13 <ais523> alise: ?annotate=1 on the HTML FLR, IIRC
23:11:16 <coppro> and Canada's gun registry will survive
23:11:34 <alise> nooga: http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.html?annotate=1
23:11:36 <coppro> after a 153-151 vote in the House of Commons
23:11:42 <alise> hover over things to get something that's probably accurate
23:12:01 <alise> nooga: http://agora.qoid.us/shalls.txt
23:12:04 <alise> here's stuff you have to do.
23:12:36 <alise> nooga: also, don't say anything about rule 104; just don't
23:13:34 <alise> pikhq: I propose that lo, MicroXP shall be amazing.
23:14:22 <alise> If anyone installs Windows 95 into a VM and extracts explorer.exe, I will be forever in their debt.
23:14:26 <GreaseMonkey> anyways, i'm leaving, cya
23:14:27 <alise> (Note: Forever = five minutes.)
23:14:30 <alise> GreaseMonkey: bye
23:14:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:16:26 <nooga> could you, say, attempt to change the Agora's official language
23:16:28 <nooga> ?
23:17:35 <ais523> yes, although it probably wouldn't pass
23:17:42 <ais523> you can propose anything, it's up to the other players to vote on it
23:18:07 <nooga> to... http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ænglisc_sprǣc
23:18:18 <alise> nooga: yes, but nobody would vote on it.
23:18:28 <alise> well
23:18:30 <alise> nobody would vote for it, rather
23:18:35 <alise> apart from me and comex
23:19:11 <nooga> þǣre
23:20:27 <alise> pikhq: err okay, seirously, do you know how to use WinPE? :D
23:21:00 <alise> aha
23:21:02 <alise> \setup
23:23:31 <alise> nope
23:24:08 <alise> pikhq: mission report so far: can't find the damn setup :)
23:25:27 <pikhq> alise: The fountain predates me.
23:25:42 <alise> Or DOES it
23:26:19 <pikhq> alise: WinPE is just a Windows boot disk.
23:26:23 <alise> pikhq: Indeed.
23:26:29 <alise> pikhq: It's also all XPe has in the way of installation.
23:26:35 <alise> Apparently I have to copy some directory over then run some thing then reboot.
23:26:39 <alise> I cannot find the directory.
23:27:57 <pikhq> alise: Find & run setup.exe
23:28:06 <Vorpal> couldn't sleep, so here is an intel CPU (sorry for the flood):
23:28:07 <Vorpal> ╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮
23:28:07 <Vorpal> ╭╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╮
23:28:07 <Vorpal> │ D8086-2 │
23:28:07 <Vorpal> │ L7010276 (c) INTEL '78 '84 │
23:28:08 <Vorpal> ╰╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╮╭╯
23:28:13 <Vorpal> ╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯╰╯
23:28:20 <Vorpal> (markings mostly correct)
23:28:26 <alise> And you complain about me flooding.
23:28:29 <alise> pikhq: not that simple, actually
23:28:35 <alise> setup.exe is just a guide to WinPE, pretty much
23:28:39 <alise> http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/28255-how-to-use-winpe-for-network-unattend-install/
23:28:49 <alise> maybe i'm wrong
23:28:52 <Vorpal> alise, of course, but if you flooded unicode art of 8086 I would forgive you
23:28:57 <pikhq> Urgh.
23:29:04 <alise> pikhq: it may be on one of the three disks
23:29:10 <alise> pikhq: here, you download it, i'm not suffering alone :P
23:29:24 <alise> your pay shall be: a FREE copy of MicroXP!
23:29:43 <alise> And that gift is even more important than friendship.
23:29:45 <pikhq> Oh, so it seems that you need to run it on a copy of XP to build images.
23:29:56 <alise> But this /is/ the entire XPe distribution;
23:29:58 <alise> *distribution.
23:30:00 <alise> It has *three disks*.
23:30:03 <pikhq> XP, not XPe.
23:30:22 <alise> pikhq: Right.
23:30:27 <alise> But I doubt you need XP.
23:30:29 <alise> To install XPe.
23:30:33 <alise> That's ridiculous.
23:30:40 <alise> It's three effin' disks! They must have an installer!
23:30:48 <pikhq> You need XP to create the custom XPe images that you install.
23:30:56 <alise> pikhq: What about a ... non-custom ... XPe... image...
23:31:00 <pikhq> It is apparently not sanely designed.
23:31:03 <pikhq> alise: It's all custom.
23:31:19 <alise> Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha pikhq: your job is to make an image
23:35:33 <alise> pikhq: So how much of a pain is making an image?
23:36:02 <pikhq> alise: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/library/ms940811.aspx
23:36:19 <pikhq> Most of that is installing the image maker.
23:36:20 <alise> pikhq: Suicide pact?
23:38:39 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT1IGy_AGgQ The pizza smoothie was Obama's idea.
23:38:43 <alise> (Seriously what?)
23:40:50 <alise> pikhq: Hypothesis: Windows XP Embedded clearly can't remove that much more than a regular installation with nLite!
23:40:54 <alise> Therefore project aborted NEVER SPEAK OF IT AGAIN
23:40:58 * pikhq looks for an unhacked copy of Windows XP.
23:41:00 <pikhq> Why, you ask?
23:41:10 <pikhq> I happen to have an XP license and no disc.
23:43:17 <pikhq> Hrm, wait. That has activation attached.
23:43:22 <pikhq> Screw that shit.
23:43:53 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, just use the pirated version.
23:44:00 <alise> Fun fact: A single XP key can only be activated, I think, five times!
23:44:28 <alise> XP fucks you over one too many times? You gotta reinstall? Maybe you want to make a legal VM on your shiny new Ubuntu Macintosh Optimus Prime Transformers Robots In Disguise?
23:45:09 <Gregor> Five? I thought it was three.
23:45:13 <alise> pikhq: Most cracked XP discs are just the regular XP disc with a cracking program to be used in Safe Mode included in the root of the disc.
23:45:16 <alise> Gregor: Hmm, possibly.
23:46:49 <pikhq> Oh, wait, I've got a corporate edition disc still here, I think.
23:46:51 <pikhq> \o/
23:47:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:47:37 <nooga> lol
23:47:50 <pikhq> ... But, that one had something odd about it. :/
23:48:18 <nooga> 28 of 80 ppl on my year failed "basics of programming" course
23:48:29 <Gregor> Only 28?
23:48:46 <nooga> and only one with the best grade possible is.... me :F
23:48:51 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
23:48:51 <alise> Gah, which is that pirate XP variant with the Win95 explorer?
23:48:54 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
23:49:29 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:49:33 * pikhq is going to try & find a plain XP disk and a nice, illegal key for the sake of nLiteing right
23:51:18 <alise> pikhq: Hey, I've monopolised that industry.
23:51:28 <nooga> that means at least two things: students are idiots, teachers can't teach
23:51:46 <alise> The words "Internet Explorer" will even be removed from the manual!
23:52:14 <ais523> what will you replace them with?
23:53:21 <pikhq> alise: I'll do you one better. Windows 2000: the last version of Windows without obnoxious bloat.
23:53:24 <pikhq> :P
23:54:00 <alise> pikhq: Ha ha ha. You mean Windows 95.
23:54:05 <alise> ais523: Nothing! That saves disk space!
23:54:24 <pikhq> alise: Okay, okay. But there's not a free tool for trimming that down.
23:54:27 <nooga> ;f
23:54:35 <alise> "- Browse the internet with , Microsoft's premier web browser."
23:54:42 <alise> pikhq: It doesn't need trimming down.
23:54:57 <pikhq> YES IT DOES I SAID SO
23:55:03 <alise> pikhq: Ever used 95?
23:55:07 <pikhq> Yes.
23:55:14 <alise> pikhq: For extended periods of time?
23:55:33 <pikhq> Yes; it was the OS on my computer before I started using Linux.
23:56:17 <nooga> uhuh
23:56:32 <alise> pikhq: When was that?
23:56:50 <nooga> i don't know why anyone decides to use windows nowadays
23:57:26 <nooga> when macs are relatively cheap and linux distros are so cool
23:58:01 <nooga> i think the thing is... many ppl don't decide, they just get a computer with something installed
23:58:05 <pikhq> alise: Well, the first system we had with 95 was obtained in '96... I had been using an old POS system with 95 until about 2001, though.
23:58:23 * Sgeo has used Windows ME for extended periods of time...
23:58:40 <alise> Sgeo: I have too; liquefied pain.
23:58:51 <alise> pikhq: Without the IE update that converted explorer.exe to IE, I hope.
23:59:13 <pikhq> alise: Came out of the box that way. OSR2.
23:59:57 <alise> pikhq: Blech, vomit, puke, stomp on.
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