00:00:10 * Sgeo is addicted to SGU music
00:00:10 <alise> 95's explorer.exe = awesome
00:00:38 <alise> pikhq: I actually went quite happily a while back with a maximised VM running Windows 95 for a few days.
00:01:11 -!- alise has left (?).
00:01:14 -!- alise has joined.
00:01:19 <alise> I typed a long message
00:01:54 <pikhq> alise: Presumably you were happy except for the lack of a modern browser.
00:02:10 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, I highly recommend installing 95 in a fast VM like VirtualBox, installing the VESA driver, and then going into fullscreen mode for a few days. Seriously; it's fun. You can get a modern browser -- Seamonkey a few releases back works, Nathan of Toasty Technology (the GUI gallery person) was working to correct that at the time.
00:02:13 <Sgeo> What's the difference between shallow binding and deep binding for dynamically-scoped variables?
00:02:16 <alise> A few releases back = *minor* releases.
00:02:21 <Sgeo> The c2 wiki fails to be comprehensible to me
00:02:22 <alise> It was, literally, almost latest Gecko.
00:02:38 <alise> It was perhaps a few months to a year old.
00:02:47 <alise> And, as I said, Nathan was working with the team to get the latest release working.
00:02:59 <alise> pikhq: Did I mention that Nathan /uses Windows 95 as his daily driver/?
00:03:03 <alise> It is his main OS.
00:03:21 <alise> pikhq: Oh yeah, I had an IRC client too, though I forget which.
00:03:26 <pikhq> alise: And it's nice that Seamonkey still works.
00:03:27 <alise> In fact, an awful lot of stuff works, really.
00:03:37 <alise> pikhq: In fact, the latest-but-one Cygwin release (the one before Unicode support) works on Windows 95!
00:04:16 <alise> Honestly: if you have some free time and get bored, fullscreen a 95 VM with the VBEMP drivers and have some fun.
00:04:24 <alise> I actually started really liking it.
00:04:28 <pikhq> Seamonkey no longer supports 95.
00:04:35 <alise> pikhq: Supports officially, perhaps.
00:04:53 <alise> pikhq: But I just kept trying older releases until it worked, and Nathan still uses it, so he has a prerogative to keep it working.
00:04:55 <pikhq> Gecko started to rely on Cairo, which doesn't function for below 2000.
00:05:03 <alise> And the team were very responsive to him in the bug report.
00:05:21 <alise> pikhq: Oh well; it's not like you need the latest Seamonkey to be happy.
00:05:42 <alise> Actually using 95 in a VM made me, for a split second, consider continuing to use it. It's that enamouring.
00:05:51 <pikhq> It was dropped in Seamonkey 2.0.
00:06:00 <alise> How recent is that?
00:06:03 <Sgeo> Is Win95 actually that great, or just the visual style?
00:06:12 <alise> Sgeo: The visual style is utterly irrelevant.
00:06:15 <alise> I am talking solely about usability.
00:06:28 <pikhq> alise: Nearly a year ago.
00:06:50 <alise> pikhq: Well, I did consider working on a new browser for it...
00:06:51 <pikhq> 1.1.19 is the last version to support 95, and was released in March of this year.
00:07:01 <alise> pikhq: Based on WebKit. Which I deluded myself into believing might work on 95.
00:07:04 <pikhq> End of life for the 1.x line.
00:07:08 <alise> March 2010, you could get worse.
00:07:12 <alise> I'm sure it could be forked easily enough.
00:08:14 <alise> Nathan does have a few misconceptions about Linux, though...
00:08:15 <alise> "From a users standpoint, built in drivers means you usually will not be able to make use of newly released hardware until the needed software is added to your Linux distribution, at which point you usually must upgrade the entire operating system to the latest version. (In contrast I just installed a driver for an SATA controller on Windows 95!) On the brighter side you won't have to hunt down and manually install dozens of separate drivers."
00:08:20 <alise> But he makes up for it in PURE AWESOME.
00:08:31 <pikhq> Of course, you could just build a browser on Cygwin.
00:08:40 <alise> pikhq: Oh yeah... Cairo on X.
00:08:52 <alise> pikhq: Does Firefox build in Cygwin?
00:09:11 <alise> pikhq: Then... you're sorted.
00:09:48 <pikhq> Opera *still supports 95*.
00:10:05 <pikhq> They dropped support for NT 4, but not 95.
00:10:05 <alise> I used 9 though, I think, not 10.
00:10:11 <alise> 10 was sluggish. I /was/ in a VM, though.
00:10:30 <alise> pikhq: The major complaint I had after a few days of using Windows 95: "I can't flick my mouse into the bottom-left corner and click to open the Start menu, as the buttons ends before the bottom-left pixel."
00:11:05 <alise> Quite purifying, when your only complaint is a simple violation of Fitt's law.
00:11:15 <alise> I was even considering writing a program that fucked with the taskbar to make it work...
00:11:20 <alise> ...try doing that on Windows 7 :P
00:11:30 <alise> "Also, the clock defaults to that weird 24 hour time." -- Nathan ;; wat
00:12:06 <pikhq> OpenOffice also dropped support for 95.
00:12:14 <pikhq> Who needs that, though?
00:12:15 <alise> pikhq: Nowt wrong with OpenOffice 2.
00:12:34 <alise> Nowt wrong with OpenOffice 1 :P
00:12:38 <alise> pikhq: You could just use Word 97.
00:13:31 <pikhq> And Qt 4 no longer supports 95 at all.
00:14:05 <alise> pikhq: And Windows 95 doesn't support Windows 7!
00:14:32 <pikhq> Okay, Windows 2000 is the least bloated Windows that programs still support.
00:14:45 <alise> pikhq: BTW, I'm pretty sure that with the patch thing, 95 supports up to a gigabyte of RAM.
00:15:00 <alise> You can tweak a value to expand that, it seems.
00:15:10 <alise> So you should be able to max out 32-bit address space, more or less.
00:15:23 <alise> pikhq: You mean, "Windows 2000 is the least bloated Windows that *the wrong* programs support." ;)
00:15:49 <pikhq> alise: What patch, pray tell?
00:15:56 <alise> pikhq: It's included on the CD version.
00:16:29 <alise> pikhq: The tweak is just fucking with Vcache.
00:16:37 <alise> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/253912
00:16:58 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, you can't say it doesn't support these applications.
00:21:46 <alise> pikhq: You've got me thinking about Windows now; not good for my mental health.
00:21:54 <alise> ais523: I will really support that appeal now.
00:23:11 <pikhq> alise: Now program for it!
00:23:21 <alise> pikhq: Windows 95 programming? Sounds fun!
00:23:36 <alise> You can do anything! Anything! The only limit ... is yourself. Welcome, to Win32!
00:23:41 <alise> zombo.com --> win32.com
00:23:59 <alise> lol, it redirects to http://www.bing.com/search?q=win32&form=MSSRPD
00:24:24 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_API
00:24:26 <alise> You could use this!
00:25:21 <pikhq> alise: Not on Win95.
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00:34:19 * alise searches for that screenshot of 95's explorer on XP
00:36:54 <alise> http://www.pu7o.org/pix/nt4sh_xp.png
00:36:59 <alise> Windows NT 4's explorer.exe
00:37:02 <alise> on Windows XP Professional.
00:37:15 <alise> pikhq: Now give me a single reason why this should not always be so.
00:37:41 <pikhq> Blackbox for Windows.
00:37:57 <pikhq> Yes, that Blackbox.
00:38:37 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I know.
00:38:39 <alise> It's quite popular.
00:38:49 <alise> pikhq: Now look at my screenshot and gaze.
00:39:18 <pikhq> alise: The beauty of it.
00:39:30 <alise> pikhq: Should have sent a poet.
00:39:37 <alise> NOW LET'S BE POETS (Translation: NOW LET'S MAKE THIS WORK)
00:39:53 <pikhq> It's Windows without the crap.
00:39:59 <alise> Well, no, not quite. But close.
00:40:14 <pikhq> Okay, it's Windows XP without the PAIN AND AGONY
00:43:07 <alise> pikhq: Now imagine that on Windows 2000.
00:43:16 <alise> pikhq: With everything stripped out.
00:43:34 <pikhq> alise: I'll have to try it.
00:43:51 <alise> pikhq: Yes. When I produce it!
00:43:57 <alise> (YOU WILL BE CRUSHED)
00:45:01 <alise> pikhq: A thing that saddens me: The Alpha, MIPS and PowerPC releases of NT 4.0 didn't support the GUI.
00:45:13 * Sgeo goes to install Flashblock
00:45:25 <Sgeo> Wait, Flashblock on Chromium only hides the Flash, right
00:45:38 <pikhq> No, it now stops it from starting.
00:45:41 <alise> pikhq: http://www.pu7o.org/_pvt/nt4explorer.zip
00:45:47 <alise> pikhq: NT 4.0 explorer, packaged for Windows XP.
00:46:06 <pikhq> alise: Okay, I'll want to slipstream that SOB.
00:46:26 <alise> pikhq: Mine will be at LEAST a byte shorter than yours. FOREVER
00:46:45 <alise> pikhq: OMG IT RUNS IN WINE.
00:46:47 <alise> Sorry, let me repeat:
00:46:50 <alise> It fucking runs in WINE.
00:47:00 <alise> So I can't see my cursor but IT RUNS IN WINE.
00:48:04 <alise> wine: cannot find L"C:\\windows\\system32\\Welcome.exe"
00:48:57 <Sgeo> Ooh, Welcome.exe
00:49:15 <Sgeo> I loved the propaganda that was included with various versions of Windows
00:49:16 <alise> pikhq: I was just about to brag about how amazing my MicroXP would be, but then I realised that you'd just STEAL the ideas like a dirty THIEF.
00:49:30 <alise> pikhq: I need an NDA.
00:49:40 <Sgeo> And also loved the short videos for WinXP before WinXP was released
00:49:47 <Sgeo> Any of those still available somewhere?
00:50:06 <Gregor> <alise> pikhq: A thing that saddens me: The Alpha, MIPS and PowerPC releases of NT 4.0 didn't support the GUI. // ???
00:50:20 <alise> Gregor: There were releases of Windows NT 4.0 for those architectures.
00:50:26 <alise> They did not have the Windows user interface, just the command line.
00:50:31 <alise> It would be awesome if they did have it.
00:50:34 <Gregor> ... wtfbbq, didn't know that :P
00:50:39 <alise> Gregor: Well, I /may/ be wrong.
00:50:42 <alise> But I'm pretty sure I'm not.
00:50:57 <Sgeo> alise, ty. Although I don't particularly appreciate the way you wrote youtube
00:51:23 <alise> Jewtube, jewnicode, jew reptilian new world order...
00:51:31 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aO0jumwHdg
00:51:49 <Sgeo> Dammit, YouTube's being crap
00:53:17 <alise> How to sell Office XP: Sex. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue_ShKRAqNo
00:53:35 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm4LMlWohY4&feature=related
00:54:38 <alise> Gregor: The perfect name for an Alpha, MIPS or PowerPC box running NT 4.0: "Ivory Tower"
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00:55:25 <quintopia> I can think of better OS's to fit that name...
00:55:35 <quintopia> namely ones that have never been commercially sold
00:55:37 <alise> OSes, yes, but not OSes on such obscure platforms that nobody ever used themo n.
00:56:41 <alise> pikhq: BTW, don't bother including *any* web browser.
00:56:45 <alise> You need nothing else.
00:56:54 <Sgeo> ....so what's being sold is being _unable_ to take the bra off?
00:57:01 <alise> Sgeo: Without the password!
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00:57:51 <pikhq> alise: Who needs ftp?
00:57:57 <alise> pikhq: No. No. You need ftp.
00:57:59 <pikhq> You've got a disc drive, right?
00:58:02 <alise> It comes bundled with the other stuff.
00:58:08 <alise> The other basic command-line tools.
00:58:11 <alise> Sure, you COULD specifically exclude it...
00:58:15 <alise> ...but it's kilobytes.
00:58:54 <Sgeo> "$2.99 per minute, unless you're a fast talker, then it's $4.99 per minute"
00:59:32 <alise> pikhq: http://sillydog.org/graph/ss/others/applecomauredirect.png
00:59:43 <alise> Apple: it runs on Perl.
00:59:54 <alise> Ugly Perl, at that! Oh the irony!
01:00:12 <alise> "asia red". Sounds like a codename.
01:00:20 <Sgeo> Oooooooooooooooh, Windows XP!
01:02:36 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
01:02:58 <Sgeo> "I will not have this courtroom turn into a commercial for this 'Windows XP'"
01:10:40 <Sgeo> One of the XPTV things
01:10:59 <alise> The VinylDisc is a combination of a digital layer, either in CD or DVD format, and an analogue layer, which is a vinyl record, developed by German company Optimal Media Production. It consists of a silver layer containing CD or DVD and a black polyvinyl chloride layer (able to hold 3.5 minutes of audio on 33rpm) which can be played on a regular phonograph.
01:11:03 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VinylDisc
01:11:45 <Sgeo> coppro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuTzpbur5zw&feature=related
01:15:06 <alise> I love how it can only hold 3.5 minutes.
01:15:08 <Gregor> Because it's probably expensive and has no benefits.
01:15:24 <alise> I could see pretentious IDM-type groups releasing albums in it.
01:15:29 <alise> Or at least singles.
01:15:32 <alise> But not 3.5 minutes.
01:16:34 <alise> Gregor: Do YOU know when Astronomy Picture of the Day updates?
01:16:46 <Sgeo> It's the perfect medium! Anyone can use it, even if they haven't purchased any new technology in the last 2(?) decades!
01:17:00 <alise> Like the moon landings.
01:17:14 <alise> I can't believe CDs are less than 30 years old >__>
01:17:20 <alise> They've been ubiquitous since I was born!
01:17:24 <alise> Before that, even!
01:17:53 <Gregor> I had casettes when I was a kid, but I think CDs were already out there, just not ubiquitous.
01:18:09 <alise> Cassettes where what Those Old Albums were on.
01:18:26 <alise> Actually every time I think "cassette", R.E.M. - Document's cassette release appears in my head.
01:20:12 <Gregor> I think that DAT tapes still get more bits/dollar than most other forms of storage ...
01:21:22 <Gregor> I guess hard disks are (finally) past that, but they weren't until a few years ago :P
01:21:58 <alise> My father uses/used DAT tapes extensively to record concerts. (officially, that is.)
01:22:16 <alise> His stereo is... hefty, and the speakers are mounted on the walls.
01:23:33 * Sgeo still has a bit of a hard time realizing just how little 1GB is these days
01:24:27 <alise> Gregor: 8 GB/$ means $79.99 buys you 639.92 GBs.
01:24:36 <alise> It is actually the price of a 1.5TB hard disk.
01:24:45 <alise> So yeah, disks have won.
01:25:07 <alise> You can get a terabyte for *sixty fucking dollars*! Not $69.99 either; $59.99.
01:25:13 <alise> That's a THOUSAND GODDAMN GIGABYTES
01:25:48 <alise> <alise> Gregor: 8 GB/$ means $79.99 buys you 639.92 GBs.
01:25:48 <alise> <alise> It is actually the price of a 1.5TB hard disk.
01:25:48 <Gregor> Yeah, looks like a 1.5TB tape is about $100
01:25:57 <alise> wait, this may be google interpreting megabytes as mebibytes
01:26:08 <alise> Gregor: also, disks win at actually being used too :-P
01:26:11 <Sgeo> Until you drop one
01:26:16 <Gregor> Well, tapes aren't random-access.
01:27:29 <alise> Sgeo: unless you drop one in a bad laptop without automatic drive-head parking
01:27:38 <alise> and then leave it there to mature without rescuing it
01:28:13 <Gregor> Shipping to California – Please Read
01:28:13 <Gregor> Unfortunately we are unable to ship this product directly into the State of California. This particular product will need to ship to our Austin, Texas warehouse first. We will then immediately re-ship the product to you. You will not be charged for additional shipping. This will add 2-3 business days onto to delivery of your order. Customers shipping to other states are not affected.
01:28:25 <alise> xD Where's that from?
01:28:33 <Gregor> http://www.tapeandmedia.com/sony_lto_5_tape_ultrium_5_tapes.asp?source=Froogle&REFERER=Froogle
01:29:13 <alise> "Unfortunately, the usual to-California transit checks for trace amounts of cocaine, included as a gift in all our products. Also swan remains, used in the production of the tape."
01:29:23 <alise> "Also human baby remains."
01:29:28 <alise> "Also innocent kittens."
01:29:39 <Gregor> "And a few less-innocent kittens."
01:29:50 <Gregor> Oh BTW I apparently am capable of writing a JIT.
01:30:06 <alise> I am capable of love.
01:30:12 <alise> But only on Tuesdays ;____;
01:30:16 <alise> And only for a Turing machine
01:30:19 <alise> A dead Turing machine
01:31:17 <alise> Gregor: did you know that it's impossible to move your index finger around in a circle?
01:32:36 <alise> Gregor: ...really? I was just bullshitting you so I could waste your precious time and brain energy.
01:32:48 <alise> This is like when I told someone that "gullible" wasn't in the dictionary and it *actually wasn't*.
01:33:30 <Gregor> Idonno, my circle seems extremely imperfect :P
01:33:58 <alise> Gregor: Hmm, it appears to also be impossible with the thumb.
01:34:14 <Gregor> Even more impossible with the thumb.
01:38:48 <alise> It's easy with the thumb
01:38:55 <alise> Gregor: Did you know that Google is DOWN???
01:39:25 <Gregor> You realize I used it like ten minutes ago to find that tape, right? :P
01:40:10 <Sgeo> How much does a Google cost? My techie friend said that I should use Googles.
01:44:25 <Sgeo> What if I get hit on the head and lose my intellect?
01:44:40 * Sgeo wants to wear a helmet
01:53:02 * pikhq shall go ahead and create the Win2k-minus-everything disk
01:53:32 <pikhq> Features have *got* to go.
01:54:04 * Sgeo will be rewatching SGU "Light" in a few seconds
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02:04:55 <pikhq> Win2k-minux-everything, 183MB.
02:25:12 <Gregor> Oh, s/minux/minus/? :P
02:26:13 <Gregor> I thought this was the worst hybrid OS idea in history :P
02:26:14 <Gregor> Win2k, minix and Linux or something
02:27:00 <pikhq> That would be freakish.
02:27:05 <pikhq> Amazing, but freakish.
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03:36:34 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Win2K sucks less.
03:38:02 <Mathnerd314> I find that difficult to believe... does win98 suck even less?
03:39:16 <Mathnerd314> so the curve of suckiness is something like \--\_/--/, with win2K in the middle?
03:39:38 <pikhq> Except that Win95 is quite lacking in suck.
03:39:59 <pikhq> (not having a lot of stuff lets it not have a lot of suck)
03:40:36 <pikhq> Though before Win95 sucked assloads.
03:42:22 <pikhq> Aye, ME sucked maximally.
03:42:37 <pikhq> You can't make an OS suck more and not get sued for fraud.
03:43:13 <Mathnerd314> did you see that ad with Windows Vista = Windows CE + Windows ME + Windows NT = Windows Cement?
03:49:54 <Sgeo> Awesome. Flashblock managed to crash
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04:16:57 <Gregor> Because ABP is more useful.
04:17:19 <Gregor> NoScript is just stupidly extreme. ABP is directed, surgical.
04:34:40 <pikhq> Rather, I hate all limits that cannot be computed obviously or via l'Hôpital's rule. Monsters.
04:40:22 <Gregor> I've always seen it as l'Hospital's rule.
04:40:30 <Gregor> Which I love, because it's "the hospital's rule"
04:45:40 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: ABP is slower to use. You can't do "1-click site blocking/unblocking"
04:46:07 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: is this for a class? if so, what is it called?
04:47:27 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Calculus III
04:47:38 <pikhq> We had two problems doing limits of a vector function.
04:47:46 <pikhq> I was reminded that I despise limits.
04:48:08 <Mathnerd314> limits are fun :-) you use them all the time in analysis
04:51:29 <pikhq> Now, derivatives. There's something I can get behind.
04:53:45 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: reals can be defined as the limit of a sequence of rational numbers.
04:56:28 <Mathnerd314> if that doesn't excite you, then probably nothing will
04:59:33 <Sgeo> Why must Flash crash all the time?
04:59:35 <pikhq> Everyone knows the only reals that exist are computable!
04:59:39 <pikhq> Sgeo: Adobe sucks.
05:07:04 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: ok, the limit of computable sequences of rational numbers
05:08:52 <Mathnerd314> computable sequences aren't too hard to define; something like "successive terms can be output by a Turing machine"
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05:59:16 <ais523> pikhq: *Macromedia sucks?
05:59:33 <ais523> as far as I know, Flash hasn't been rewritten, and you have to blame the original authors of the codebase to some extent
06:31:48 <Sgeo> :( at how much memory and CPU Factor was using
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06:41:44 <Vorpal> <Mathnerd314> limits are fun :-) you use them all the time in analysis <-- analysis is meh. Discrete math ftw!
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14:02:09 <Vorpal> 98% packet loss.... how fun. To master DNS server.
14:02:34 <Vorpal> so I can't even update the domain to take the other server that went down out of round robin
14:04:17 <Vorpal> nooga, now you made me consider a esolang where everything were names of rivers (and perhaps also other geographical features)
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15:24:13 <nooga> http://gopherwoodstudios.com/entanglement/ made an esolang based on that
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16:14:06 <alise> 18:04:55 <pikhq> Win2k-minux-everything, 183MB.
16:18:32 <alise> pikhq: Can you get nLite working in WINE?
16:34:49 <Vorpal> alise, 183 MB is rather large yeah
16:36:39 <alise> Vorpal: I got an uber-minimal, stripped-down XP ISO into like 200.
16:36:50 <alise> With 2000 and the complete eradication of IE components...
16:36:57 <alise> Well! I think I can significantly beat that figure.
16:37:07 <alise> Almost nothing supports XP and not 2000, anyway.
16:37:09 <alise> Even Chrome works.
16:37:21 <alise> Vorpal: You can run NT 4.0's Explorer on XP. Seriously.
16:37:26 <alise> Vorpal: http://www.pu7o.org/pix/nt4sh_xp.png
16:37:51 <alise> And font smoothing, too!
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16:57:45 <alise> http://www.hpcfactor.com/support/patching/win2000/
16:57:48 <alise> WHY ARE THERE SO MANY PATCHES
17:00:02 <Vorpal> alise, hm windows update needs IE iirc?
17:00:14 <alise> http://windizupdate.com/
17:00:28 <alise> Vorpal: besides, i don't know if windows update works with 2000
17:00:32 <alise> it's all patch installation files
17:00:40 <alise> and maybe IE updates, but I'm cutting out IE
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17:10:39 <Gregor> alise: That's pretty lurvely.
17:14:36 <alise> Gregor: Windiz Update?
17:17:55 <alise> Gregor: Or, NT shell on 2000.
17:20:36 <alise> Gregor: "If it doesn't fit on an original zip drive, it's not worth having."
17:20:55 <Gregor> If it doesn't fit on a superformatted floppy, it's not worth having.
17:22:28 <alise> Gregor: I reject that goal as being too difficult.
17:24:42 <alise> Whoa, Win2k has a fit when detecting graphics hardware.
17:24:51 <alise> "Try resolution... back to the setup! Try resolution... back to the setup!"
17:24:55 <alise> And my VM window jiggles about with its size.
17:25:07 <alise> Really quickly, too.
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17:26:44 <alise> pikhq: STRIP EVERY LOCALE
17:26:46 <alise> STRIP EVERY KEYBOARD LAYOUT
17:27:04 <alise> STRIP PER (Phantom Edition Recall-files)
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17:35:00 <alise> Gregor: Windows 2000 Professional: It starts in 16 colours!
17:35:16 <alise> Dalalalalalalalala WUM de dum duuuuuuuum
17:35:54 <alise> Gregor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFkry3zzutI
17:36:29 <alise> Gregor: Note: Also the Me startup sound.
17:37:32 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu0TMtgx1pE ;; Wow, the NT ones were fucking crazy.
17:37:44 <alise> The whole thing becomes some sort of crazy-dynamiced electronic piece.
17:39:20 <alise> With a weird ambientish piece in the middle with the Windows 98 sounds.
17:39:30 <alise> Gregor: Haha wow, 2000 Beta 3's is actually dramatic.
17:39:34 <alise> (2 minutes 40 seconds or thereabouts)
17:40:43 <Vorpal> alise, I'm trying to design a "sane" ISA. Like a replacement for x86-64. Purely for recreational purposes, since it is unlikely to ever be implemented. A question: big or little endian?
17:40:53 <Vorpal> any suggestions for that? And reason for that
17:41:22 <Vorpal> alise, interesting. Why do you suggest that?
17:41:24 <alise> reason: you can make an N-bit number bigger just by appending
17:41:33 <Vorpal> ah. Yes that is a good reason
17:41:35 <alise> which is pleasing from a theoretical aesthetics point of view, for one
17:41:39 <alise> as well as possibly being quite useful
17:41:49 <alise> also, you can easily imagine an addition algorithm on it stepping through bit by bit
17:41:55 <alise> which is only pleasing in an aesthetic sense, but it's still nice
17:42:15 <alise> Vorpal: also: go for CISC, if you're trying to reproduce such a "rich" feature set
17:42:23 <alise> it /does/ have its advantages over RISC.
17:42:27 <alise> despite the propaganda :)
17:42:37 <Vorpal> alise, I decided for memory mapped registers. And making page 0 physically unmappable (providing not just a guaranteed "safe" NULL, but also 8191 other "special" "safe" values)
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17:42:57 <alise> Vorpal: memory map the registers in page 0
17:43:19 <alise> Vorpal: i suggest reserving about 8-16 pages for the system
17:43:22 <alise> including hardware
17:43:28 <alise> for instance, for graphics cards and the like
17:43:47 <alise> 16 pages would be nice, since that's a round megabyte
17:43:53 <alise> assuming 64-bit values
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17:44:21 -!- augur has joined.
17:44:50 <alise> VBEMP NT edition, woo hoo!
17:45:46 <alise> Why must it be distributed in a zip :P
17:46:31 <alise> "In the early roadmap for Neptune's development there was one service pack planned, codenamed Triton."
17:46:36 <alise> Planning for bugfix updates: lol
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17:48:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Assuming you were giving them for free, which it might not be.
17:49:03 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> alise, I was planning to go for CRISC. "Complicated RISC". Yes it sounds like a paradox but I have some ideas
17:49:07 <Vorpal> alise, those went missing
17:49:30 <Vorpal> alise, and yes these upper pages also includes MMU registers and more
17:49:43 <alise> CRISC just sounds like VLIW.
17:49:55 <Vorpal> alise, the upper 16 KiB btw
17:49:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Precisely.
17:50:10 <alise> reserving 16 pages should be a megabyte
17:50:19 <Vorpal> alise, what is page size?
17:50:29 <alise> Vorpal: you said page 0 gave 8192 reserved values
17:50:34 <alise> I assumed 8192*8 bytes
17:50:50 <Vorpal> well, 8192 is one possible page size
17:51:02 <alise> hmm actually i'd reserve more
17:51:04 <Vorpal> alise, the OS is supposed to read that from a control register during boot
17:51:12 <alise> pointless configurability
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17:51:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, make the OS be entirely configurable through XML!
17:51:47 <Vorpal> anyway 8192*8 is a bit too large
17:51:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, har har
17:51:57 <alise> Vorpal: but hardware would use this too
17:52:17 <Vorpal> alise, also I considered the variable page size thing found not just on x86 but iirc also PPC and SPARC
17:52:20 <alise> so actually i'd probably reserve maybe 512 pages of 8192 (64-bit)s
17:52:24 <alise> that's 32 mebibytes
17:52:26 <alise> enough for anyone ;)
17:52:31 <alise> ehh, maybe hardware should reserve its own pages
17:52:37 <alise> since you could have a huge graphics display
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17:52:45 <alise> so scratch that idea, just reserve 8 pages or so for the CPU
17:52:57 <Vorpal> alise, so maybe supporting 4096 bytes, 4 MB and and 32 MB sized pages might be a good idea
17:53:03 <alise> Vorpal: support 2^n for all n
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17:53:08 <alise> it won't get implemented anyway
17:53:11 <Vorpal> alise, also 8 pages isn't enough
17:53:17 <alise> it is for the cpu itself
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17:55:37 <alise> other hardware could allocate its own pages
17:55:41 <alise> in the upper region of memory
17:55:52 <Vorpal> alise, well okay for page sizes what about: 4096 by default. Hardware could support huge pages, check control registers for that.
17:55:54 <alise> (much more durable than in lower region)
17:56:02 <alise> Vorpal: 4096 64-bit values, I assume?
17:56:02 <Vorpal> alise, since huge-pages do have some merits
17:56:12 <alise> also, how about this: no pages
17:56:16 <Vorpal> alise, hm, rather large page size?
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17:57:46 <Vorpal> alise, I do plan on keeping 8 bit char. And some support for mov to read/write 8, 16 and 32 bits. Probably not for any other instructions (those would be pure 64 bit register operations mostly)
17:57:50 <alise> no pages at all. think about it
17:58:38 <Vorpal> alise, sure, perfect for your OS. "Reasonably plausible one could port linux or similar to it" was in my plans for this
17:59:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nice but conflicts with my design goals
17:59:26 <alise> Vorpal: basically you're inventing something like Itanium but more boring
17:59:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if your design goals and LoseThos' conflict, yours are wrong.
18:00:10 <Vorpal> alise, I did say '[...] "sane" ISA. Like a replacement for x86-64.'
18:00:24 <Vorpal> alise, I was just asking about the endianness issue really
18:01:07 <Vorpal> alise, and yes hardware should be able to pick own ranges. After all you would want to put any on-graphics-card RAM into your address space.
18:01:59 <alise> Vorpal: forbid hardware allocating a page above a certain number
18:02:03 <alise> perhaps restrict it all to negative addresses, for instance
18:02:04 <Vorpal> alise, but fixed places work fine for "standard" stuff like CPU registers, MMU control bits, system timer access, and some similar stuff
18:02:13 <alise> so that page 1 -- page (a lot) can all be software controlled
18:02:20 <alise> forbid as in at the cpu level
18:02:30 <alise> i wanna run Hurd on Itanium sometime :-D
18:02:34 <Vorpal> alise, well I was considering putting kernel there (below cpu registers). I find that idea done by AMD was rather nice.
18:02:45 <alise> nah, no reason to have kernel there
18:02:50 <alise> just have it in low finite address space
18:03:31 <alise> anyway, are you sure linux requires paging? ucLinux
18:03:42 <Vorpal> ab... where a is the sign bit, negative would be hardware as you suggest. the next bit is kernel/userspace. So 01... = kernel, 00... = userspace, 1... = hardware
18:03:58 <Vorpal> with 64-bit addresses that wouldn't cut away much after all
18:04:21 <alise> you don't really need a concept of kernel
18:04:21 <Vorpal> alise, and uclinux is not real linux, it is a separate project. Based on linux yes
18:04:23 <alise> it can handle its own
18:04:46 <Vorpal> alise, maybe add that as a suggestion simply.
18:05:29 <Vorpal> alise, I planned to put the IP at 0xfffffffffffffff8-0xffffffffffffffff (I sure hope I didn't make an off by 1 error here)
18:05:41 <Vorpal> alise, hm variable length instructions or fixed length?
18:05:49 <Vorpal> both have their merits
18:05:54 <alise> err, just put the ip in one of the 8 reserved CPU pages
18:05:56 <alise> more than enough space there
18:06:08 <Vorpal> alise, well that is in one of them?
18:06:18 <alise> the 8 reserved cpu pages are starting at 0 in what i was thinking
18:06:23 <alise> that is, you wouldn't just reserve page 0 for null
18:06:26 <alise> you'd reserve pages 1-7 too
18:06:34 <alise> like ip, registers,
18:06:44 <Vorpal> alise, hm... and leaving the address 0 doing nothing?
18:06:47 <alise> (8 is more than enough, but you know, leaves expansion room)
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18:06:55 <alise> Vorpal: yes. possibly trap it in the memory interface
18:06:58 <alise> and flag up an error
18:07:01 <alise> like everything else does
18:07:12 <alise> it wouldn't even go to the memory interface
18:07:18 <alise> since it'd go straight to the cpu to look up a register or whatever
18:07:23 <alise> and it could just barf if it gets 0
18:07:28 <Vorpal> alise, interesting but the disadvantage is that sometimes you don't get a true NULL dereference. Consider struct->somememeber; where struct is a NULL pointer
18:07:43 <Vorpal> and somemember is not the first one
18:07:45 <alise> that dereferences struct first, obviously
18:08:02 <alise> Vorpal: well, that'd misbehave, sure
18:08:06 <alise> but it misbehaves on current hardware too
18:08:09 <alise> Vorpal: one solution would be:
18:08:11 <alise> have page 0 completely empty
18:08:14 <alise> and only use pages 1-7 for internal stuff
18:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Itanium is Intel's superarchitecture that went wrong, isn't it?
18:08:21 <alise> that way, unless your structure is ridiculously big, it'll be trapped
18:08:21 <Vorpal> alise, well yes and no. Linux forbids a few pages at the bottom due to this
18:08:28 <Vorpal> alise, that sounds reasonably safe
18:08:34 <alise> one page should be enough, assuming it's big enough
18:08:36 <alise> 8192 bytes or more
18:08:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yeah
18:09:19 <Vorpal> alise, where to put system clock and such? Around CPU registers or somewhere in negative hardware range
18:09:37 <alise> around cpu registers, might as well
18:10:15 <alise> Vorpal: if you have each be 8192 64-bit values, i.e. 8192*8 bytes, then pages 1-7 get you 448 kibibytes
18:10:23 <alise> more than enough to stuff any damn extension you can think of in a lifetime
18:10:28 <alise> (yeah, yeah, "should be enough for everyone")
18:10:41 <alise> (but you can always start using the high range and pretend to be a piece of hardware if you somehow run out of all that)
18:10:54 <Vorpal> alise, I think that might be too large to be useful. 8192 bytes seems better
18:11:08 <Vorpal> alise, you could get some memory fragmentation issues with too large pages
18:11:24 <alise> fine, make it one 448 kibibyte page :)
18:11:35 <Vorpal> and that is constrained by physical RAM, not virtual address space
18:11:45 <Vorpal> alise, I meant, too large page size :P
18:11:58 <alise> Vorpal: just split it up into more pages, then
18:12:03 <alise> and come up with some sort of organisation
18:12:13 <alise> Registers & Counters
18:12:19 <alise> has registers, carry flag and the like, and IP
18:12:30 <Vorpal> and something like that. Maybe reserve 512 KiB at the start. 448 seems so uneven
18:12:36 <alise> Vorpal: it's 512 KiB
18:12:40 <alise> i was counting page 0 as reserved
18:12:42 <Vorpal> ah yeah with null page
18:12:46 <alise> reserved to always barf, that is
18:12:51 <alise> so that'd become a few reserved pages, but whatever
18:13:08 <alise> (if you do foo->x where foo is null and the structure is bigger than 8 kibibytes, you deserve whatever you get)
18:16:44 <Vorpal> alise, negative is 0x8000000000000000-0xffffffffffffffff right?
18:16:50 <Vorpal> unless I miscalculated
18:17:18 <alise> i try not to think about such concrete things
18:19:37 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000000000 - 0x0000000000002000 Illegal memory, will cause a page fault
18:19:37 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000002001 - 0x0000000000080000 IDCR (ISA-Defined Control Registers)
18:19:37 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000080000 - 0x7fffffffffffffff Normal address space.
18:19:37 <Vorpal> 0x8000000000000000 - 0xffffffffffffffff HMA (Hardware Mapped Memory)
18:19:40 <Vorpal> alise, I think that is right
18:19:50 <alise> why not vliw? too cool for you? :P
18:19:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:20:07 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000080000 -> 0x0000000000080001
18:20:15 -!- Behold has joined.
18:20:22 <Vorpal> alise, wait a second, or am I off by one in the other direction
18:21:24 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000000000 - 0x0000000000001fff Illegal memory, will cause a page fault
18:21:25 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000002000 - 0x000000000007ffff IDCR (ISA-Defined Control Registers)
18:21:25 <Vorpal> 0x0000000000080000 - 0x7fffffffffffffff Normal address space.
18:21:25 <Vorpal> 0x8000000000000000 - 0xffffffffffffffff HMA (Hardware Mapped Memory)
18:21:50 <Vorpal> alise, as for VLIW. Could it actually work well?
18:22:05 <alise> Sure; well, as well as your crazy CRISC thing would.
18:22:17 <alise> Itanium's suckage was mostly Intel being fucktards and nobody else giving a shit.
18:22:21 <Vorpal> alise, you haven't seen the instruction set yet (and I haven't written that down yet)
18:22:48 <Vorpal> alise, wasn't there a problem with writing compilers for VLIW iirc?
18:22:49 <alise> Vorpal: The main issue with VLIW is compiling for it.
18:22:55 <alise> You can easily do it; it's efficiency that's the issue.
18:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought Itanium's suckage was down do the impossibility of compiling to it?
18:23:04 <alise> Just not a totally solved problem yet ;)
18:23:18 <alise> Transmeta addresses this issue by including a binary-to-binary software compiler layer (termed Code Morphing) in their Crusoe implementation of the x86 architecture. Basically, this mechanism is advertised to recompile, optimize, and translate x86 opcodes at runtime into the CPU's internal machine code. Thus, the Transmeta chip is internally a VLIW processor, effectively decoupled from the x86 CISC instruction set that it executes.
18:23:44 <alise> Intel's Itanium architecture (among others) solved the backward-compatibility problem with a more general mechanism. Within each of the multiple-opcode instructions, a bit field is allocated to denote dependency on the previous VLIW instruction within the program instruction stream. These bits are set at compile time, thus relieving the hardware from calculating this dependency information. Having this dependency information encoded into the instruction st
18:23:44 <alise> ream allows wider implementations to issue multiple non-dependent VLIW instructions in parallel per cycle, while narrower implementations would issue a smaller number of VLIW instructions per cycle.
18:23:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:24:01 <alise> Another perceived deficiency of VLIW architectures is the code bloat that occurs when not all of the execution units have useful work to do and thus have to execute NOPs. This occurs when there are dependencies in the code and the functional pipelines must be allowed to drain before subsequent operations can proceed.
18:24:01 <alise> Since the number of transistors on a chip has grown, the perceived disadvantages of the VLIW have diminished in importance. The VLIW architecture is growing in popularity, particularly in the embedded market, where it is possible to customize a processor for an application in an embedded system-on-a-chip. Embedded VLIW products are available from several vendors, including the FR-V from Fujitsu, the BSP15/16 from Pixelworks, the ST231 from STMicroelectroni
18:24:01 <alise> cs, the TriMedia from NXP, the CEVA-X DSP from CEVA, the Jazz DSP from Improv Systems, and Silicon Hive. The Texas Instruments TMS320 DSP line has evolved, in its C6xxx family, to look more like a VLIW, in contrast to the earlier C5xxx family.
18:26:23 <Vorpal> ...... what a strawman
18:26:54 <alise> http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Sophisticated-and-Cultured-Male
18:27:11 <fizzie> I don't quite see how much more like a VLIW C64xx could look; although it is sort of "optionally VLIW", in that it reads in 8-15 instruction packets, and then those are split to units of 1-8 simultaneously executed ops.
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18:29:18 <fizzie> From what I understand, the "efficiently compiling" problem there is sort-of solved by the fact that it does DSP, so it usually involves doing the same thing to many numbers, which tends to be easy to parallelize. (And of course people do bother to hand-craft assembly too. I don't have any first-hand experience as to how good TI's C compiler is.)
18:29:45 <fizzie> (It costs quite a lot, so presumably it must be good.)
18:30:06 <fizzie> ((Okay, so it's not really *that* expensive; four digits in $s, not more than that.))
18:44:47 <alise> You may disable WFP by setting the value SFCDisable (REG_DWORD) in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\ SOFTWARE\ Microsoft\ Windows NT\ CurrentVersion\ Winlogon. By default, SFCDisable is set to 0, which means WFP is active. Setting SFCDisable to 1 will disable WFP. Setting SFCDisable to 2 will disable WFP for the next system restart only (without a prompt to re-enable).
18:44:47 <alise> Important: You must have a kernel debugger attached to the system via null modem cable (for example:I386kd.exe or Windbg.exe) to use SFCDisable = 1 or SFCDisable = 2.
18:45:29 <Vorpal> alise, what is WFP/SFC?
18:45:35 <alise> Windows File Protection
18:45:38 <alise> stops you fucking with shit
18:46:02 <alise> as a coprophiliac, I would like to fuck with Windows' shit
18:46:06 <alise> and thus would like it to go away
18:46:37 <Vorpal> alise, arguably it is a good feature, should result in less support calls for microsoft...
18:46:51 <Vorpal> but yeah easier to turn off.... perhaps
18:46:53 <alise> Vorpal: it already hides all the windows directories
18:46:59 <alise> and makes you click a link to show them
18:47:02 <alise> Vorpal: oh, this is only for windows 2000
18:47:09 <alise> i think the only way to disable it in XP onwards is to use hacks
18:47:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, coprophiliac: one who enjoys fucking with shit.
18:47:13 -!- nooga has joined.
18:47:13 <alise> patched DLLs, etc.
18:47:25 <pikhq> fizzie: Of course, the "efficiently compiling" thing is as opposed to having the CPU pipeline efficiently.
18:47:38 <alise> Coprophilia (from Greek κόπρος, kópros—excrement and φιλία, filía—liking, fondness), also called scatophilia or scat, is the paraphilia involving sexual pleasure from feces.
18:47:48 <alise> That is, to enjoy fucking shit.
18:55:15 <alise> pikhq: btw, windows 2000 may depend on ie in strange ways.
18:55:27 <alise> being that it is really the first member in the XP What the Fuck IE Abuse family.
18:56:58 <alise> pikhq: also, TELL ME HOW TO FUCKING DISABLE WFP IN 2000 I CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT
18:57:05 <alise> that is, permanently, without any serial port connected
18:57:57 <alise> Windows File Protection
18:58:02 <alise> is stopping me putting the NT4 explorer in there
18:58:20 <alise> i may have disabled it
18:58:35 <pikhq> Should be in the System config dialog.
18:58:35 <alise> "cd Foo Bar" works in windows
18:58:41 <alise> pikhq: nonono, it's registry editing
18:58:58 <pikhq> Well, nLite has it as a tweak.
18:58:59 <alise> now to install explorer
18:59:48 <alise> pikhq: Time to restart with the NT 4 EXPLORER FUCK YEAH
19:00:18 <alise> MINIMALISTS REPRESENT
19:01:12 <alise> pikhq: it didn't work lol.
19:01:38 <pikhq> alise: husàkenn ne, koriȳa.
19:01:55 <alise> pikhq: it's reverted somehow
19:02:41 <alise> http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/jsifaq/jsi-tip-8185-how-do-i-disable-wfp-in-windows-2000-sp4-and-windows-xp-sp1a-.aspx
19:02:48 <alise> SP4: Replacing your nice registry option with a hex edit!
19:02:58 <alise> Because professional users are morons.(TM)
19:03:23 <alise> google still looks fine in IE 5.0 :D
19:05:15 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:08:46 <alise> pikhq: it actually seems to have a for-crap-browsers version of the results page
19:08:51 <alise> which looks like it did in yonder days
19:09:08 <alise> i bet some people have some hack to use that as the main page :)
19:10:14 <alise> "Windows File Protection Switcher 1.0"
19:10:16 <alise> Why didn't I know about this
19:14:16 <alise> Woo! I ran a patching tool and WPF complained, so it must be happy.
19:14:27 <alise> I declare the operation a success.
19:15:20 <Vorpal> alise, 16 bits for the opcode of instructions should be more than enough right? (8 is too few, and something in between is... annoying)
19:16:00 <alise> Vorpal: variable length
19:16:11 <Vorpal> alise, well sure for the instruction
19:16:15 <Vorpal> alise, I meant for the *opcode* itself
19:16:18 <alise> you want to be able to store common, small things in very small space
19:16:20 <alise> so variable length opcodes
19:16:32 <alise> for instance, nop or some very common move should just be one byte or so
19:16:42 <alise> exchange-with-passing-directive-bitmasked-with-port-modulo-8
19:16:50 <alise> should clearly not have a priority spot.
19:16:54 <Vorpal> alise, I doubt I would have that one :P
19:16:59 <alise> well, you know what i mean
19:17:04 <alise> just do it vaguely like utf-8
19:17:27 <alise> pikhq: SOMEHOW IT IS THWARTING ME
19:18:15 <Vorpal> alise, well, what about 1-63 for common 1-byte ones (opcode 0 should be invalid or such, that way, jumping to zero filled memory will be invalid), remaining ones for 16-bit ones? I have to check how many that gives me
19:20:05 <pikhq> MY WIN2K DISC IS VERY BROKEN
19:20:08 <pikhq> VERY BROKEN INDEED
19:20:18 <alise> wow, someone claiming microwaving food is bad for you because it uses radiation to cook your food, which puts radiation in your food
19:20:20 <alise> which causes cancer
19:20:31 <alise> i am just smiling now and preparing my noose
19:20:37 * pikhq tries to find an ISO *without any mother-fucking hacks applied at all*
19:20:41 <alise> pikhq: want mine? SP4 included! No serial required!
19:20:50 <alise> I think it just has the serial check removed in the installer. That's it.
19:20:55 <alise> Or maybe is a version that never required it, OEM or something.
19:21:05 <pikhq> alise: I want the raw, as-put-on-disc ISO.
19:21:14 <alise> pikhq: http://www.torrentz.com/9dbe5e50f715eed52a9eb1c07220aee835f31ec1
19:21:25 <alise> pikhq: I am pretty sure it is an OEM version that requires no cd key.
19:21:48 <Vorpal> alise, iirc OEM versions of xp were locked to some BIOS ID? Not sure about win2k
19:22:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: XP started it.
19:22:03 <Gregor> Got a ticket for jaywalking.
19:22:12 <alise> Gregor: Now work on arson and murder.
19:22:27 <Gregor> Vorpal: Crossing a street against a crossing signal.
19:22:28 <pikhq> alise: It seems what he did is slipstream SP4 and add the serial to the auto-install config.
19:22:31 <alise> Wait, what the fuck?
19:22:40 <alise> I just realised that you guys actually have jaywalking as an actual thing, and it's a crime.
19:22:58 <alise> See, I crossed a road without the passenger light being on... two times today.
19:23:12 <alise> Because... all the roads it crossed were either empty or red lighted.
19:23:19 <alise> Are you telling me this is actually illegal in America?
19:23:24 <alise> You can get *fined* for doing this?
19:23:25 <Vorpal> in theory I don't think that is okay here either. But everyone does it.
19:23:30 <pikhq> Yes, and people do it all the time.
19:23:45 <alise> I LOVE HOW YOU GUYS VALUE THE RIGHTS OF CARS MORE THAN THE RIGHTS OF HUMANS
19:23:48 <alise> It's totally great
19:23:48 <pikhq> The police only fine you if it's actually nearly-suicidal for you to do so.
19:23:52 <Vorpal> I doubt anyone would care though here, unless you are holding up traffic
19:23:59 <Gregor> alise: It's also illegal to cross a street against a signal in a car.
19:24:00 <Vorpal> I mean, if it was empty no one would care
19:24:14 <alise> Totally not the same thing, though.
19:24:25 <Gregor> Which is why this is a $20 fine and that would be a $150 fine.
19:24:28 <pikhq> Gregor: Except that pedestrians always always always have right of way.
19:24:34 <alise> It's perfectly legal in the UK.
19:24:46 <Gregor> pikhq: Right of way is distinct from legal passage.
19:24:47 <alise> And common law says that humans take priority (but it's not a right).
19:25:02 <alise> The penalty for it in the UK is, if you do it when there's cars there, you get hit by a car.
19:25:08 <Vorpal> alise, um, so if the car is driven by a human?
19:25:14 <alise> Barbaric? Maybe. Effective? Yes. And it doesn't cost the state a thing!
19:25:29 <alise> Plus, it happens automatically, even if no police officer is around to notice the crime.
19:25:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: What sort of crazy cars do YOU have? HUMAN drivers? Huh?
19:25:45 <alise> The road system is very fucked up.
19:25:58 <alise> Thin pavements, cars driving at ridiculous speeds with basically no regard for walkers or cyclists...
19:26:01 <Vorpal> alise, would not most drivers slow down in such a situation?
19:26:08 <alise> ...Ford Prefect didn't make such a stupid mistake after all.
19:26:18 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, what if it is a blind person? Or a small child?
19:26:24 <alise> Vorpal: Sure, but who says they'll break in time?
19:26:48 <Vorpal> alise, s/break/brake/ ?
19:26:55 <alise> Yeah yeah whatever.
19:27:21 <alise> The crossing is pretty beastly where I'm talking about.
19:27:38 <alise> Two streams of traffic coming in, and a stream going out.
19:27:51 <alise> Which means that the electronics are a little overly cautious...
19:27:54 <Gregor> alise: Does Ford still make the "Ford Ka"?
19:27:56 <pikhq> alise: "WSUS Offline Updater" is nice. It downloads all of the extent patches for a given version of Windows.
19:27:58 <alise> Which means you get held up for thirty seconds or so...
19:28:15 <alise> And then you learn to just cross when nothing's coming. Suicide is painless!
19:28:26 <alise> I hate the road system.
19:28:28 <pikhq> Which shall let me slipstream a 100% complete Win2k disc.
19:28:34 <alise> Gregor: It appears so.
19:28:49 <alise> pikhq: WHY MUST YOU COMPETE WITH ME
19:28:52 <alise> I WILL OBLITERATE YOUR VERY EXISTENCE
19:28:53 <Gregor> The Ford Ka is an American company making fun of your accent right to your face :P
19:29:19 <alise> "This is a Ford car, and this is a Ford Ka."
19:29:41 <alise> "The Ka is a car; one car is a Ka. A Ford Ka is a Ford car. Ford Ka's a Ford car."
19:29:44 <pikhq> alise: I just wants a Windows VM
19:30:02 <pikhq> Why must it always hurt?
19:30:27 <alise> pikhq: So fund Micro2k!
19:32:50 <alise> "Shell32.nt4" is actually meant to be called that
19:33:59 * pikhq curses at bittorrent
19:34:05 <pikhq> Cannot find peers.
19:34:17 <alise> Use the tracker list.
19:34:19 <alise> That's why you use torrentz.com
19:34:31 <alise> http://www.torrentz.com/9dbe5e50f715eed52a9eb1c07220aee835f31ec1 --> click uTorrent compatible list -->
19:34:34 <alise> select all, paste into torrent client
19:34:38 <alise> FWOOM INSTANT SPEED
19:35:04 <pikhq> alise: How do with rtorrent?
19:35:56 <alise> pikhq: rtorrent is fucking painful in its UI.
19:36:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's the standard list format
19:36:13 <alise> hurr let's implement a usual ui using ncurses and the keyboard hurr
19:36:38 <pikhq> alise: Suggestions?
19:37:18 <alise> pikhq: Transmission. Not only does it have a daemon/command-line-client version, it also has a really nice GTK UI.
19:37:26 <alise> Or a local web version, if you're into that.
19:37:32 <alise> pikhq: Oh, Qt too.
19:37:47 <alise> (Although the curses one is in a git repo.)
19:39:30 <alise> http://img48.exs.cx/img48/1732/sometime0ed.png
19:39:36 <alise> Microsoft does have a sense of humour!
19:41:40 <pikhq> alise: So, how do you add a tracker list to Transmission?
19:43:41 <alise> WHY INFERNAL MACHINE WHY
19:45:16 <pikhq> Transmission is definitely superior to rtorrent.
19:47:01 <alise> (Note: the server/client thing is only done if you explicitly do that, and I think only their specific transmission-remote can actually connect to it. But that's not really much of a problem.)
19:47:04 <alise> (Well, and the web interface too.)
19:47:17 <alise> pikhq: Dear God it works.
19:47:40 <alise> Sure, the patched version posted by THE MOST AWESOME PERSON EVER has the XP Professional gradient thing on the start menu but WHO CARES??
19:47:56 <alise> And sure it has the kinda weird circa-95 full-colour icons but that's what editing resources is for.
19:48:05 <pikhq> Should be a simple patch to get it to use the Win2k gradient.
19:48:09 <alise> pikhq: Of course it's... a bit buggy.
19:48:14 <alise> Double click on my computer --> Find: All Files
19:48:16 <pikhq> *Should* be a resource, after all.
19:48:30 <alise> XDD "[X] Run in separate memory space" (greyed out)
19:48:33 <alise> from the Run dialogue
19:49:00 <alise> pikhq: Double clicking is Find..., not Open
19:49:03 <alise> I'm sure that could easily be rectified
19:49:32 <alise> Memory usage of explorer.exe: six megabytes.
19:49:37 <alise> That's what I like to see.
19:50:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: To what?
19:50:15 <alise> pikhq: Haha wow it has the active desktop tab in display settings.
19:50:33 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, that's a seperate DLL.
19:50:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Double click torrent, or just go to its properties in some other way. Click "Trackers". Click "Add". Or, just click the edit button and paste a list in.
19:51:05 <alise> pikhq: It even works with network shares.
19:51:49 <alise> pikhq: Another thing that would need to be corrected: Shows the irritating computer icon on folders that are shared or whatever, which basically means all the programs you've installed in the programs menu.
19:51:53 <alise> But really, this is minor stuff.
19:51:55 <alise> This works almost perfectly.
19:52:09 <alise> pikhq: IT EVEN WORKS WITH THE CONTROL PANEL
19:53:51 <alise> pikhq: Folder options control panel doesn't work though. Obviously.
19:56:16 <alise> pikhq: What we are learning today: NT changes very little.
19:56:46 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:57:23 <alise> Even rebooting works.
19:58:15 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya.
20:00:49 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
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20:01:01 <alise> "It definitely has its share of glitches, like displaying a dozen instances of Task Manager in the systray, among other things."
20:01:11 <alise> pikhq: Apparently you can extract the NT files from an update.
20:02:09 <alise> ---------------------------
20:02:09 <alise> ---------------------------
20:02:09 <alise> Not enough storage is available to complete this operation.
20:02:09 <alise> ---------------------------
20:02:12 <alise> ---------------------------
20:02:14 <alise> pikhq: Printers folder: don't fuck with it.
20:02:58 <olsner> welcome to #esoteric, where alise prefixes every messages with pikhq
20:03:23 <alise> olsner: but it's all one continuous stream about running the NT4 Explorer in Windows 2k!
20:03:25 <oerjan> he's just trying to pikhq or interest
20:04:03 <alise> [ Start ] <- Click here to begin.
20:04:52 <olsner> Windows 2000 was nice, with updated drivers (and maybe 64-bit support) it would easily be the best windows evar
20:05:45 <alise> olsner: no, windows 95 still holds that crown
20:05:49 <alise> which me and pikhq are trying to rectify
20:05:54 <alise> cool nt4 explorer crashed :)
20:06:29 <alise> pikhq: I wonder how Chrome likes being run in NT4's explorer.
20:07:57 <pikhq> Doesn't support Win2k.
20:09:35 <olsner> opera apparently still works on windows 95, but it's not supported
20:11:13 <alise> it works great yeah
20:11:17 <alise> juts not officially
20:11:23 <pikhq> olsner: It lists Windows 95 as a minimum requirement, I thought
20:11:34 <alise> you need to install it manually
20:13:03 -!- Flonk has joined.
20:16:29 <alise> I wonder which of Opera and Chrome would actually run better on 2000.
20:20:52 -!- Harpyon has joined.
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20:23:16 <Harpyon> It is what you want it to be :)
20:30:39 <oerjan> google.no suggests i mean "Harpyørn"
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20:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> An advert on TV has just said that the internet is the most important invention of the 21st century.
20:45:19 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:46:00 <oerjan> no. 2 is clearly accurate timekeeping
20:48:35 <Gregor> It seems that ARM EABI takes a very progressive stance on floating point equality.
20:48:39 <Gregor> ((float) whatever == (float) whatever_else) always => false
20:48:45 <Gregor> Even if they're bit-per-bit identical.
20:49:11 <Gregor> Conversely, != is always true, even if they're bit-per-bit identical.
20:49:17 <Gregor> Excluding infinity and NaN cases of course.
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20:53:29 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if Rand cultists are forbidden from using floating point stuff.
20:53:43 <Gregor> Floating point is the root of most evil.
20:54:00 * oerjan _thinks_ he gets Phantom_Hoover's reference
20:54:54 <oerjan> mailed to somewhere in aisa
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21:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me, or is Facebook collapsing under its own weight?
21:02:33 <Harpyon> it's been gradual, too. lately notifications and chat has been failing, and earlier today it all just stopped
21:03:36 <Gregor> Yeah, it's dead right now.
21:03:54 <Gregor> And unfortunately, it probably gets more traffic while dead than while alive :P
21:04:00 <Gregor> So it's tough for it to come back up.
21:04:01 <Harpyon> I know, it's kind of awesome :P
21:04:12 -!- marchdown_ has joined.
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21:09:08 <Harpyon> they probably just spilt coffee on a server or something
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22:13:37 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> An advert on TV has just said that the internet is the most important invention of the 21st century.
22:13:39 <alise> yeah i hate that one >_<
22:14:06 <alise> who has EVER seen the stupid confused.com logo thing as female before, either?
22:14:15 <alise> she even morphs when she goes back in at the end to look male
22:15:37 <Phantom_Hoover> At least, not without paying an ad company to dynamically synergise it with the proactive paradigm!
22:20:52 <alise> pikhq: Every pageload in IE, NTx4r (en tee ex four er; NT4 explorer) crashes and reloads. :)
22:23:20 * Sgeo sads at Diaspora not being written by competent persons
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22:25:47 <alise> Vorpal: make the processor 72-bit
22:26:06 <alise> Vorpal: no, 96-bit!
22:26:08 <alise> it's half-way to 128-bit
22:26:54 <alise> you already knew they weren't competent: they think *facebook* was a damn good idea, if only it was more nerdy
22:27:18 <alise> as if facebook was anything less than being nearly the death of people communicating in non-infuriating ways with even a hint of intelligence
22:27:52 -!- nooga has joined.
22:31:48 <alise> pikhq: I... don't think NT 4 has quick launch.
22:31:51 <alise> That is... not good.
22:32:46 <alise> pikhq: I have a theory that Opera is actually powered by the annoyingness of its default interface.
22:32:57 <alise> They make it stupider every release.
22:33:27 <Vorpal> <alise> as if facebook was anything less than being nearly the death of people communicating in non-infuriating ways with even a hint of intelligence <-- myspace?
22:33:42 <alise> Vorpal: nobody with a hint of intelligence signed up for myspace in the first place, so no loss
22:34:02 <alise> well ok i did sign up but only to be snarky and that was before facebook was anything more than for the pretentious college kids
22:34:30 <Vorpal> alise, never signed up to facebook I hope?
22:34:50 <alise> i did, but in my defence it had just been released to the public and still had a reputation of being far less stupid than myspace.
22:34:53 <alise> for instance, there were no apps.
22:35:08 <alise> the last time i signed in was to play go with a friend to avoid the hassle and unlikelihood of him installing gnu go
22:35:19 <alise> this lasted a very short time, as i am the only person worse than him at go
22:35:35 <alise> Vorpal: btw, i'm not actually using nt4
22:35:47 <alise> i've just transplanted NT4's (i.e. Windows 95's) Explorer onto Win2k
22:35:57 <alise> so it controls the desktop, the file management, the task bar and the start menu
22:36:12 <alise> oh, and logging out, shutting down and rebooting, of which it can do none, but i'm sure that can be fixed
22:38:41 -!- augur has joined.
22:39:33 <alise> oh, it hasn't entirely figured out click-minimising yet, either
22:39:41 <alise> as in clicking on the taskbar
22:39:44 <alise> pikhq: how goes your efforts?
22:41:22 <alise> pikhq: windizupdate works perfectly.
22:42:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Does Agda have any merit as a dependent programming language?
22:43:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: As research, sure.
22:44:02 <alise> It's not the worst thing ever.
22:44:06 <alise> The devs are mostly nice people.
22:44:16 <alise> It's just that a lot of stupid people have promoted it in very stupid ways.
22:45:37 <alise> well, they pretend you can do some sort of proving with it
22:45:45 <alise> but if you said you were gonna prove riemann i doubt they'd recommend it.
22:45:48 <alise> it's definitely a research project
22:46:13 <Sgeo> One of XChat-GNOME's quirks is starting to get at me
22:46:30 <Vorpal> alise, I decided that long jumps and call must go to an even address. That has the advantage of being able to use LSB to indicate absolute/relative IP
22:46:48 <Sgeo> If someone writes multiple lines in a row, the nick is only shown for the first
22:46:58 <alise> Sgeo: you can disable that. but if you're gonna fuck with settings, install xchat
22:47:01 <alise> pikhq: i mean to what :P
22:47:14 <alise> Vorpal: make it an extra 1-bit parameter
22:47:52 <Vorpal> alise, but that means instructions won't start at byte boundaries!
22:48:31 <alise> Vorpal: you have no knowledge of the risc my friend
22:48:35 <alise> Vorpal: pad it out to a byte, but don't pad
22:48:38 <alise> make it do something useful instead
22:48:46 <alise> for instance, let it serve as small constant storage
22:48:52 <alise> or perhaps do something to a register
22:48:57 <alise> Vorpal: not joking, this is basically how you design a risc! :p
22:48:59 <Vorpal> alise, and okay, Now it is an extra 1 bit parameter. It is stored after the 31 most significant bits of the address :P
22:49:43 <Vorpal> alise, as for the constant, hm, for what in a jump
22:49:57 <alise> Vorpal: just make it get put somewhere
22:50:00 <alise> or shift some value
22:50:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: clever
22:50:15 <Vorpal> alise, that explains some weirdness of some RISC :P
22:51:02 <Vorpal> alise, anyway I can't think of any other useful addressing modes than abs/relative pc for jumps and calls
22:51:12 <Vorpal> for some other it is obvious
22:51:42 <alise> or perhaps power addresses
22:51:46 <alise> for a crazy executable b-tree
22:51:55 <alise> where it literally jumps around the binary tree!
22:52:05 <Vorpal> I mean, bit shift? Ah, you have the flags: rotate, arithmetic, rip/abs/off-reg
22:52:26 <alise> Vorpal: yes, requires executable code though, and you're too boring to do that
22:52:38 <Vorpal> alise, executable code?
22:52:47 <alise> executable data, you know what i mean
22:52:54 <alise> because you'd store the binary tree lookup stuff in the tree itself
22:52:56 <alise> and jump around it
22:53:08 <Vorpal> alise, and that will obviously be supported. As well as having a NX flag, because no-execute is good sometimes
22:53:24 <Vorpal> but executable data will probably be supported
22:53:27 <Vorpal> it is an useful feature
22:54:19 <Vorpal> alise, oh and I went for 256-bit SIMD. 128-bit is so boring
22:55:25 <Vorpal> alise, and I'm considering making the SIMD subset of instructions form a VLIW group. Not VLIW as in IA64 exactly though.
22:55:53 <Vorpal> rather that horizontal vs. vertical kind of thing
23:01:48 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:02:06 -!- EOF has joined.
23:03:07 <EOF> GOTO SLEEP
23:04:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:04:21 <alise> pikhq: Subpixel antialiasing on Windows 2000; discuss.
23:04:40 <pikhq> alise: This is a legitimate argument for using a highly stripped XP.
23:04:49 <alise> pikhq: Nonono, as in, I have it.
23:04:54 <alise> One could even say that I has it.
23:04:59 <pikhq> alise: Oh. Awesomeness.
23:05:09 <EOF> svn commit -F suicide_note.txt suicide.c
23:05:16 <pikhq> Nay, that's definitely hot sex.
23:05:25 <alise> "Verily, hot sex."
23:05:48 <alise> pikhq: http://www.cobyx.com/software/gdi/
23:05:52 <alise> Based on unmaintained: http://drwatson.nobody.jp/gdi++/index-en.html
23:06:02 <alise> It links to a 2ch thread and a Japanese page about the new version they're doing, but whatever.
23:06:08 <pikhq> alise: By god yes.
23:06:10 <alise> pikhq: Note: Tweaking the ini is a pain and such, but.
23:06:18 <alise> pikhq: Configuration three in gditray defaults is quite nice.
23:06:21 <pikhq> Probably beats fontconfig.
23:06:23 <alise> But they're all a little bit under-hinted.
23:06:35 <alise> pikhq: As in, sometimes it seems to completely ignore the ini.
23:06:53 <alise> I think if you use one of the 1/2/3 ini files it works.
23:07:02 <alise> Anyway, I have never before seen NT4 explorer using subpixel antialiasing.
23:07:07 <alise> Actually maybe that screenshot of it in XP had it.
23:07:22 <alise> pikhq: it actually smooths /Microsoft Sans Serif/
23:07:27 <alise> I think it can even smooth Terminal
23:07:39 <alise> *ah, no, not terminal
23:08:16 <nooga> terminus without aa
23:08:17 <pikhq> I do have to give Microsoft credit for at least having fonts that look decent while aliased.
23:08:21 <nooga> and aesome, and vims
23:09:15 <pikhq> alise: Microsoft Sans Serif, BTW, is the Truetype version of MS Sans Serif.
23:09:25 <alise> pikhq: Err, right.
23:09:32 <alise> pikhq: Unfortunately you can't antialias window titles or the default menu font. :)
23:09:45 <EOF> GOTO SLEEP
23:10:36 <alise> pikhq: And no, I don't know how to make GDI++Tuner save, either.
23:11:14 <EOF> somebody should leak the windows source code, then make GPL'd versions of every file
23:11:43 <EOF> microsoft would never admit the whole source was leaked
23:11:44 <pikhq> EOF: Wouldn't work the way you think.
23:11:45 <alise> EOF: you are a moron
23:11:53 <alise> <pikhq> EOF: Wouldn't work the way you think.
23:11:53 <alise> <alise> EOF: you are a moron
23:11:56 <alise> Two paths were taken that day
23:12:58 <EOF> $ cd suicide
23:13:00 <alise> pikhq: Ever noticed how nice Palatino Linotype is? No? That must be the GDI++ talking.
23:13:36 <EOF> svn commit -m "Farewell, cruel world!"
23:14:10 * pikhq mutters about niche music being impossible to pirate
23:14:29 <pikhq> I just want something other than shitty MP3s from a decade ago.
23:14:34 <alise> pikhq: Not quite true...
23:14:53 <alise> There is a knack to it, you know
23:15:12 <EOF> GOTO isohunt.com
23:15:12 <pikhq> alise: The problem is that I'm picky.
23:15:35 <EOF> torrents often have proper 320kbps encoding of songs
23:15:47 <EOF> evern for your niche shit
23:15:52 <pikhq> EOF: That's not proper, that's evil.
23:16:00 <alise> pikhq: gdippManager may be better than gditray. Not sure.
23:16:09 <alise> EOF: you are even more of a moron than previously suspected.
23:16:12 <alise> and the LAME developers hate you
23:16:14 <EOF> people use mp3
23:16:14 <pikhq> Seriously, if you're going to use lossy encoding you should use one that's lower quality but still effectively transparent.
23:16:18 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:16:25 <alise> Like -V2 --joint-stereo.
23:16:27 <pikhq> And if you're going to use a high bitrate encoding you might as well use FLAC.
23:16:51 <Sgeo> alise, why does Flash keep crashing?
23:16:54 <pikhq> 320 kbps MP3 is the worst of all worlds.
23:16:58 <alise> Sgeo: because it hates you
23:17:00 <EOF> because it's flash
23:17:11 <Sgeo> How do I make it not crash?
23:17:19 <EOF> by not using it
23:17:23 <alise> pikhq: Yay, I got the config working.
23:17:33 <alise> That is waaay too much hinting.
23:17:38 <Sgeo> Wasn't alise p,laying with OSS or something to get it working?
23:17:47 <alise> flash always sucks
23:18:15 * EOF deals with it all over your mom
23:18:53 <EOF> i've had way too much programming serum
23:20:08 <EOF> i hate me too
23:20:10 <alise> pikhq: Grr, it's so tricky to tweak.
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23:23:27 <olsner> holy fuck spider goats: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End%20of%20the%20World/Genetics%20Nightmare/spider_goats.htm
23:24:25 <alise> pikhq: Any luck with GDI++?
23:24:32 <alise> Configuring it is the biggest bitch in the history of bitch.
23:24:59 <pikhq> alise: Not been futzing with it.
23:26:43 <Sgeo> In Perl, if I'm using a dynamically scoped variable, say, set something at the top level, get it at some subroutine somewhere?
23:26:50 <Sgeo> Might something in the middle accidentally modify it?
23:26:55 <alise> So, report: It is possible to run an operating system from 2000 with a desktop shell from 1996 and modern subpixel rendering technology that involves hacking the fundamental graphics library from 2006.
23:26:59 <alise> And all of this basically works.
23:27:15 <Sgeo> I _think_ Factor avoids this. Variable names are words in vocabularies, so no collisions
23:27:36 <Sgeo> Maybe I should write something quickly
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23:28:57 <olsner> alise: that says something!
23:29:04 <olsner> dunno exactly what though
23:29:11 <alise> olsner: yes, and what it says is this: Microsoft are really crazy about backwards compatibility.
23:29:18 <alise> And... forwards... compatibility.
23:29:31 <alise> And Dear God You Are Molesting My Files compatibility.
23:30:54 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/G0ptn
23:31:06 <alise> pikhq: http://offset.skew.org/wiki/User:Mjb/GDI%2B%2B
23:31:19 <alise> Sgeo: word wrap fail.
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23:33:09 <alise> pikhq: tl;dr japs are doing their crazy thing and developing new perfect version. mortals sit baffled
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23:34:29 <olsner> your summary is awesome, I wonder if it implies awesomeness in the actual thing
23:34:29 <alise> pikhq: What do you think of Server 2003?
23:34:36 <alise> It's like Windows 2000 but for XP.
23:34:51 <alise> olsner: it basically hacks custom font rendering -- in the new version, freetype -- into windows' GDI library
23:34:55 <alise> so it is awesome in the oh god trauma way
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23:37:26 <pikhq> alise: From what I've seen of it, it... Doesn't suck.
23:37:36 <alise> pikhq: Maybe we should...
23:37:47 <pikhq> Of course, it's a "professional" OS, instead of end-user tinkertoy bullshit.
23:38:00 <pikhq> Which counts for a lot.
23:38:00 <alise> pikhq: You can push it into workstation mode.
23:38:18 <alise> With sufficient rohypnol. Uh, forget I said that.
23:38:19 <pikhq> Yup. 2003 Pro is the workstation version.
23:38:28 <pikhq> And it's not end-user tinkertoy bullshit. :)
23:38:28 <alise> pikhq: I mean you can push the actual server version into workstation mode.
23:44:15 <alise> Hey, it can reboot now.
23:44:31 <alise> "Built on NT Technology" -> "Built on New Technology Technology"
23:45:19 <olsner> if you don't know that the T in NT stands for technology, you will need it written out for the sentence to make sence
23:46:03 <olsner> I don't get what the big deal is with "lol, same word wice in a row if you expand the acronym"
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23:46:29 <TwokNT4GDIpp> ...is the technology I am using right now. Also Opera.
23:46:36 <alise> olsner: i don't care like some stupid people do
23:46:40 <alise> i just found it a bit amusing in this case
23:46:52 <olsner> a "scsi interface" means a whole lot more than "a scsi"
23:47:06 <alise> "ATM machine HURRR and whenever anyone says 'radar ranging' I'm ON their ass"
23:48:41 <alise> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i860
23:49:11 <olsner> hmm... I wonder if I can set up my shell to run everything through time, I'm almost obsessed with timing my commands but always forget to add 'time ' on the beginning and then I have to start all over again :)
23:49:52 <alise> olsner: send the time output to a temporary file and store it in a variable :)
23:50:12 <alise> for instance "times" would cat the time of the last command
23:50:17 <alise> "times 1" second-last
23:50:26 <alise> up to about 10 recorded times
23:50:36 <alise> olsner: and hide the output normally
23:50:41 <alise> after all, there's no kill like overkill
23:50:42 <olsner> yeees, but I would have to run through time and store the times anyway
23:51:02 <olsner> I might as well just *display* it as part of the prompt :)
23:53:06 <alise> olsner: i have this crazy suspicion you use zsh
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23:53:45 <olsner> I used to use it but then I reinstalled and realized I was too lazy to configure a non-standard shell
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23:57:28 <olsner> "The i860 did see some use in the workstation world as a graphics accelerator. It was used, for instance, in the NeXTdimension, where it ran a cut-down version of the Mach kernel running a complete PostScript stack."
23:57:42 <alise> apparently I, ehird, am a "electric humanoid intelligent robotic daemon™"
23:57:58 <olsner> that's such an awesome use for a general-purpose processor