←2010-09-25 2010-09-26 2010-09-27→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:17 <Vonlebio> Or brought in by the SCP foundation.
00:00:18 <alise> SeGo: we're not
00:00:21 <alise> actually
00:00:25 <alise> we're talking about something completely different
00:00:44 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:00:55 <SeGo> This _has_ to be one of my practice recordins
00:00:58 <SeGo> *recordings
00:01:19 * Vonlebio twitches
00:01:46 <SeGo> I feel like I have a superpower
00:01:50 <Vonlebio> I'm going to take a long time to recover from that.
00:02:07 <SeGo> The last half minute or so isn't that bad
00:02:38 <SeGo> And neither is the first 23 seconds or so
00:02:42 <alise> SeGo: Unfortunately, no human being can wait until then.
00:02:52 <alise> Total skeletal collapse occurs a few seconds beforehand.
00:02:56 <SeGo> I can listen to it just fine
00:02:56 <Vonlebio> I've actually reached up to 1.35.
00:02:56 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:03:07 <Gregor> Well, I recorded it :P
00:03:13 <Gregor> Now, to never ever let anyone hear it.
00:03:44 <SeGo> It might be the microphone..;
00:03:49 <Vonlebio> OK, I'm going to try for another 20 seconds. AT ONCE.
00:04:09 <SeGo> Vonlebio, if all 20 seconds don't include singing, it's cheating
00:04:15 <Vonlebio> AAAa
00:04:21 <Vonlebio> IT WAS ALL SINGING
00:04:33 <alise> Gregor: filebin.ca
00:04:36 <alise> You know what you must do.
00:04:42 <Gregor> I'll do it if two other people do :P
00:04:48 <SeGo> Gregor, counting me?
00:04:49 <alise> Gregor: What, sing opera?
00:04:51 <Gregor> SeGo: No.
00:04:56 <alise> I don't even know any opera to sing.
00:04:56 <Gregor> alise: Sing something, record it, upload it.
00:04:58 <Gregor> It can be short.
00:05:05 <alise> Gregor: Tell me how to get Ubuntu to recognise my microphone.
00:05:15 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
00:05:24 <Gregor> alise: Is it in arecord -L?
00:05:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:05:34 <SeGo> Wamanuz, http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/paint_it_black_karaoke.ogg
00:05:39 <SeGo> If you want to go deaf
00:05:47 <Gregor> SeGo: So now you're just being evil then :P
00:05:52 <Vorpal> alise, see link in /msg
00:05:55 <SeGo> Hey, I included a warning
00:06:04 <alise> Gregor: I don't know.
00:06:09 <alise> No.
00:06:10 <alise> No output.
00:06:17 <alise> When I record with the default input, it just has stuff that sounds like background noise.
00:06:17 <Gregor> `arecord -L
00:06:21 <alise> Like real background noise.
00:06:26 <alise> As if I recorded it and said nothing.
00:06:33 <Vonlebio> I feel strangely desensitised by now...
00:06:39 <Vorpal> alise, *prod*
00:06:51 <HackEgo> No output.
00:07:56 <SeGo> Did I at least pronounce Majere correctly?
00:08:03 <Vonlebio> Wha?
00:08:08 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:08:14 <SeGo> "It's clear I've gone Majere"
00:08:15 <Gregor> SeGo: DON'T DO IT
00:08:24 <SeGo> ...?
00:08:27 <Vonlebio> SeGo, noöne is going to listen to it *again*.
00:08:48 -!- FIQ has joined.
00:08:55 <SeGo> I've listened to it several times already
00:09:07 <Vonlebio> EXCEPT YOU
00:09:08 <Gregor> SeGo: You're obviously desensitized by being you.
00:09:19 <Vonlebio> I reached the end!
00:09:23 <pikhq> And he may have lost the ability to have taste in music.
00:09:28 <Gregor> <Vonlebio> Now, to kill myself.
00:09:51 <SeGo> Vonlebio, without pausing?
00:10:07 <pikhq> I have been listening to Final Fantasy music instead of this madness.
00:10:10 <pikhq> Vast improvement.
00:10:12 <Vonlebio> Gregor, when did I say that.
00:10:23 <Gregor> *smack*
00:10:50 <pikhq> Except OH GOD I HAVE THE FFX2 SOUNDTRACK
00:10:52 <pikhq> NO MAKE IT STOP
00:10:54 <Vonlebio> Oh, now I get it.
00:11:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:11:12 <SeGo> pikhq, is my karaoke better??
00:11:24 <Vonlebio> pikhq, listen to SeGo singing. It makes *everything* good by comparison.
00:11:41 -!- SeGo has changed nick to Sgeo.
00:11:54 <Sgeo> Like miraculin!
00:12:14 <pikhq> Vonlebio: I don't think you realise the scope of the tone change here.
00:12:30 <Vonlebio> pikhq, probably.
00:12:56 <pikhq> Vonlebio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcSPrk2LfNM <- Yuna's Theme from FFX. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjYbJ6u05yQ <- Yuna's Theme from FFX-2.
00:12:59 <pikhq> Any questions?
00:13:36 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-youtube.php <- Gregor's Theme from this summer or something :P
00:13:43 <Gregor> Silly link ...
00:13:54 * Vonlebio asked a friend to listen to that. HE THOUGHT IT WAS ME SINGING
00:14:00 <Vonlebio> I AM MORTALLY OFFENDED
00:14:26 <Gregor> X-D
00:15:14 * pikhq strongly hates FFX-2. And hates the music more.
00:15:27 <Gregor> I just hate the concept.
00:15:36 <Gregor> Oh, it's FFXI? No, it's FFX ... part two.
00:15:51 <pikhq> Gregor: You played FFX, right?
00:15:57 <Gregor> I haven't played any FF since 8.
00:16:11 <pikhq> Sit down and play FFX now.
00:16:13 <pikhq> NAO
00:16:36 <pikhq> Oh, and maybe play FFXII simultaneously; very little interaction required.
00:16:45 <Gregor> I don't have the relevant consoles.
00:16:51 <pikhq> s/consoles/console/
00:16:53 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:16:55 <pikhq> Get a PS-2. NAO
00:17:04 <Gregor> I thought XII was PS3
00:17:09 <pikhq> No, that's XIII.
00:17:12 <pikhq> Which I also dislike.
00:17:17 <alise> haha, wow
00:17:29 <alise> an Ubuntu-using friend-of-a-friend is trying to prove that he knows more about computers than me
00:17:35 <pikhq> XII sucked ass at gameplay, but had a decent story.
00:17:45 <pikhq> Well. It more *lacked* gameplay.
00:17:50 <alise> and I quote (sec)
00:17:54 <pikhq> You programmed the PCs.
00:18:17 <alise> "unless he formatted the whole drive. partitioning the drive into 3 sections, 60gb, 60 gband 32gb (NTFS, ext4 and ext4 respectively), doing that requires about 50% more knowledge than a plain install"
00:18:24 <pikhq> Aaaand then... Let them do all combat automatically.
00:18:33 <alise> yes, that is correct: someone is trying to out-nerd me with (probably graphical) PARTITIONING
00:18:43 <pikhq> And then they made it encourage grinding.
00:18:51 <pikhq> In short: play another game while playing it.
00:18:59 <pikhq> alise: Facepalm.
00:19:30 <alise> okay i've told him to come in here to see if he can understand even half a word of it
00:19:34 <alise> so talk technical guys!
00:19:40 <Sgeo> Does PSOX count?
00:19:41 <alise> and i quote some more: "i'm sure he just wants to seem big by using multiple technical words
00:19:44 <alise> *words"
00:19:49 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
00:19:56 <Sgeo> Oh
00:20:11 <pikhq> Gregor: Anyways. FFX-2. Let's take a somewhat sad game, and make a spin-off. Wherein the female characters become the *only* playable characters, and they dress like strippers.
00:20:26 <Gregor> pikhq: Do they at least strip?
00:20:36 <pikhq> Gregor: No, but they change clothes in combat.
00:20:49 <Vonlebio> alise, is he coming?
00:20:52 <alise> apparently he can't even program lol
00:20:53 <Gregor> But is there any nudity in it?
00:20:54 <alise> Vonlebio: dunno
00:20:57 <alise> we'll have to see
00:21:01 <Sgeo> Oh, I thought Wamanuz was him
00:21:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, and did I mention that they're somehow pop music sensations? Only 5 years after a very very strong religious opposition to ALL TECHNOLOGY ended?
00:21:06 <pikhq> Gregor: No.
00:21:14 <Vonlebio> Everyone, switch to Turing machines1
00:21:22 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:21:43 <Gregor> Is there a C-to-TM compiler yet?
00:21:44 <Sgeo> I can't even figure out what to do with a damaged HD
00:21:49 <Sgeo> Other than ask in here...
00:21:51 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vonlebio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcSPrk2LfNM <- Yuna's Theme from FFX. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjYbJ6u05yQ <- Yuna's Theme from FFX-2. <-- nice music (at least the first one, haven't got around to the second yet)
00:21:52 <alise> wow
00:21:55 <alise> he just dissed double booting
00:21:56 <alise> and then
00:21:59 <alise> "no... merey installing 3 os's on a single hard drive hence the partitioning"
00:22:04 <Vonlebio> alise, GET HIM IN HERE NOW
00:22:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: FFX had very good music. It's a Final Fantasy game.
00:22:06 -!- sebbu has joined.
00:22:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, true
00:22:09 <Sgeo> ....?
00:22:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:22:14 <Sgeo> What does he think dual-booting is?
00:22:14 <alise> double-booting is "a waste of cpu space and electrons" or -- i forget exactly what he said there, but --
00:22:17 <alise> yet triple-booting
00:22:19 <alise> IS THE SHIT
00:22:32 <Gregor> With emphasis on "shit"
00:22:33 <alise> "to be honest... intelligence isnt just how much you know... it is how you use it, and he isnt using it sociably, thats for sure"
00:22:53 <Vorpal> <alise> double-booting is "a waste of cpu space and electrons" or -- i forget exactly what he said there, but -- <-- of "CPU space"?
00:22:54 <Vorpal> wtf
00:23:00 <alise> bear in mind i haven't actually talked to him
00:23:02 <Vorpal> disk space maybe
00:23:04 <Vonlebio> alise, quick! Play Sgeo singing at him!
00:23:05 <alise> he just insulted my intelligence when someone else brought me up
00:23:06 <Vorpal> but cpu space?
00:23:08 <alise> and then i retaliated
00:23:22 <alise> Vorpal: i dunno if he said "space"
00:23:24 <Vonlebio> It'll reduce him to a gibbering wreck!
00:23:29 <alise> attacks on my intelligence *really* fucking irritate me.
00:23:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: Heck, you could just do a comparison of the opening CGs to get a full grasp of the astounding difference between the games.
00:24:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, ?
00:24:21 <pikhq> Erm, opening... Cutscenes. That.
00:24:26 <Vorpal> ah
00:24:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay the second one is shitty for a game.
00:24:50 <Vonlebio> alise, IS HE HERE YET
00:24:50 <Vorpal> at least in the ff genre
00:24:53 <Sgeo> How do we know we're not all delusional?
00:25:02 <Sgeo> And we incorrectly think we are capable and intelligent?
00:25:03 <alise> Vonlebio: he's not coming, i don't think
00:25:06 <Gregor> "Double-booting" is presumably booting one OS on one core, and one OS on the other core ... simultaneously.
00:25:13 <alise> Gregor: er i meant dual-booting
00:25:21 <Gregor> alise: I'm trying to explain his "logic" :P
00:25:22 <Vonlebio> Sgeo, because noöne would delude themselves into thinking that your karaoke exists.
00:25:42 <Vonlebio> It must exist objectively.
00:26:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, different composers I presume?
00:26:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, I can't imagine that whoever made the first one would sink so low as to do the second one
00:26:56 <pikhq> Yeah, FFX was mostly Nobuou Uematsu. FFX-2 was some J-pop artist.
00:27:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, the second one is a total disaster for a fantasy game
00:28:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvIp4tRIUJI FFX intro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjldKQx3Kag FFX-2 intro.
00:28:54 * Sgeo wonders if his singing could be used as a WMD
00:29:13 <Sgeo> BRB
00:29:20 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|SomeonesAtM.
00:29:33 <pikhq> FFX-2 *starts with a fucking pop concert*.
00:29:53 -!- Sgeo|SomeonesAtM has changed nick to Sgeo.
00:30:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about the ffx game after that?
00:30:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: What FFX game after FFX-2?
00:30:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh? there isn't one?
00:30:49 <pikhq> After that abortion of a game?
00:30:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, did they abort it?
00:30:58 <Vorpal> huh?
00:31:18 <pikhq> No, I'm using "abortion" as an insult, and a suggestion that they should have aborted it.
00:31:27 <Vorpal> ah
00:31:35 <pikhq> Or should do so post-term. With a sledgehammer.
00:33:28 <pikhq> And whoever's responsible for the dressphere system should be executed.
00:33:45 <Sgeo> dressphere?
00:34:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, the FFX-2 intro is unwatchable
00:34:35 <pikhq> Sgeo: It has a clothing-based combat system. Honest-to-God.
00:35:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, what does that even mean?
00:35:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: You change clothing to change jobs.
00:35:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, I want that GPU used for FFX2 though. That is some realistic graphics.
00:35:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, huh
00:36:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, and from what I can remember of the final fantasy series that pop concert is just _competely_ anachronistic
00:36:57 <Vonlebio> @pl \x y z -> x z $ y z
00:36:57 <lambdabot> ap
00:37:04 <Vonlebio> Grrr.
00:37:32 <Vonlebio> @pl \m n f x -> m (n f) x
00:37:32 <lambdabot> (.)
00:37:59 <Vonlebio> @pl \a b f -> f a b
00:37:59 <lambdabot> flip . flip id
00:38:17 <Vonlebio> @pl \p -> p (\x y -> x)
00:38:17 <lambdabot> ($ const)
00:38:29 <Vonlebio> CLEVER
00:38:36 * Vonlebio → sleep
00:41:02 <alise> lol
00:41:05 <alise> he pussied out
00:41:11 <alise> he's just being completely normal now he's actually face to face with me
00:41:25 <alise> retard + loss of indirection = nice person
00:42:45 <Vorpal> alise, eh?
00:43:01 <alise> Vorpal: the aforementioned idiot
00:43:02 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:43:12 <alise> <alise> "unless he formatted the whole drive. partitioning the drive into 3 sections, 60gb, 60 gband 32gb (NTFS, ext4 and ext4 respectively), doing that requires about 50% more knowledge than a plain install"
00:43:13 <alise> <alise> yes, that is correct: someone is trying to out-nerd me with (probably graphical) PARTITIONING
00:43:14 <Vorpal> alise, with the CPU area?
00:43:16 <alise> <alise> and i quote some more: "i'm sure he just wants to seem big by using multiple technical words
00:43:19 <alise> <alise> apparently he can't even program lol
00:43:23 <alise> <alise> wow
00:43:25 <Vorpal> alise, gband?
00:43:25 <alise> <alise> he just dissed double booting
00:43:26 <alise> <alise> and then
00:43:26 <alise> <alise> "no... merey installing 3 os's on a single hard drive hence the partitioning"
00:43:32 <alise> <alise> double-booting is "a waste of cpu space and electrons" or -- i forget exactly what he said there, but --
00:43:34 <alise> <alise> yet triple-booting
00:43:34 <alise> <alise> IS THE SHIT
00:43:36 <alise> <alise> "to be honest... intelligence isnt just how much you know... it is how you use it, and he isnt using it sociably, thats for sure"
00:43:39 <alise> the end
00:44:17 <Vorpal> alise, what the fuck is "gband"
00:46:03 <alise> "gb and"
00:46:22 <alise> of course all of this is because i'm ~zomg young~
00:46:33 <alise> if i was 25 he would have just shut up and accepted it
00:46:38 <alise> but 15 year olds are INHERENTLY LESS INTELLIGENT :)
00:51:48 <Vorpal> alise, and how old is he?
00:52:04 <Vorpal> alise, also you said face to face? You meant him in RL?
00:52:15 <alise> face to face as in not through the friend of whom he is a friend
00:52:29 <alise> i dunno how old he is, only a few years older than me at most
00:57:30 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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01:00:23 <Vorpal> alise, that dell btw, built in speakers are way better than that of my thinkpad. However, the headphone jack is *noisy*
01:00:36 <Vorpal> for headphones my laptop beats it
01:00:55 <Vorpal> of course my desktop with SB Live 5.1 beats both easily
01:01:26 <Vorpal> oh and mute remove the noise
01:04:27 <Vorpal> oh I see headphones are at 100
01:04:33 <Vorpal> changing that helps
01:04:55 <Vorpal> still a bit noisy
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01:09:50 <Sgeo> alise, why haven't you resumed reading FS?
01:10:02 <Sgeo> Or résuméd it, for that matter?
01:10:27 <alise> taking a break
01:11:06 <quintopia> alise, why haven't you accepted Cthulhu as your Lord and God Almighty?
01:13:28 <alise> quintopia: because IPU
01:13:47 <Vorpal> alise, IPU?
01:14:56 <alise> invisible pink--
01:15:43 <quintopia> you're a True Believer, eh
01:16:22 <Sgeo> I dropped IPU for FSM
01:16:31 <Sgeo> FSM does not have a contradiction inherent in the name itself
01:16:47 <Sgeo> Just like there is no contradiction inherent in the letters G o d
01:17:01 <Vorpal> alise, invisible pink what?
01:17:04 <Sgeo> unicorn
01:17:08 <Vorpal> ah
01:17:10 <Sgeo> (BBHH)
01:17:15 <alise> <Sgeo> I dropped IPU for FSM
01:17:15 <alise> <Sgeo> FSM does not have a contradiction inherent in the name itself
01:17:15 <alise> <Sgeo> Just like there is no contradiction inherent in the letters G o d
01:17:18 <alise> stupidest fucking rationale ever
01:17:23 <alise> the whole point of these is to be ridiculous
01:17:38 <alise> and the FSM is irritating, because its inventor seems to think he's the first to think of such a wacky idea, a fake god!
01:17:48 <Sgeo> ...he does? o.O
01:18:17 <alise> well, he seemed to be pleased with himself about it in the first letter.
01:18:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, a pop concert merely existing isn't anachronistic for the *series*.
01:18:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: Just that game.
01:19:13 <pikhq> Actually, more like "that point in the timeline of the game".
01:19:25 * Vorpal secretly replaces alise's IRC client next time he goes to sleep with MS Comic Chat, locked in comic mode
01:19:27 <pikhq> Would have not been an abuse of the timeline at the start of FFX's storyline.
01:19:32 <pikhq> Just an abuse of all taste.
01:19:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm okay
01:20:16 <pikhq> I'm just going to say that FFX also had, near the very start, some heavy metal. And it fit.
01:20:24 <Vorpal> mhm
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01:20:57 <quintopia> I worship the invisible pink flying spaghetti goddess of the Old Ones, Discordia!
01:20:58 <Sgeo> Dear Firefox: When I click a tab, I do _not_ intend to close it
01:20:59 <pikhq> (oh, and the very end. It was also boss music. :D)
01:21:06 <quintopia> Discordia fhtagn!
01:21:52 <quintopia> Sgeo: sounds like a bug. My copy doesn't put the close buttons on inactive tabs.
01:22:25 <Sgeo> Neither does mine
01:22:33 <Sgeo> It just thinks I clicked to close for some reason
01:22:54 <Sgeo> I'm going to attempt to watch some SGU
01:23:16 <Sgeo> Is there a way to see what packages are taking up lots of disk space?
01:23:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what distro?
01:23:47 <Sgeo> Ubuntu 10.04 LTS
01:23:48 <Vorpal> you could list all packages with size presumably
01:23:50 <Vorpal> then sort it
01:23:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: In fact, here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GjvRAJaEc0
01:24:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, don't have any ubuntu system turned on atm, but should be possible with dpkg or such
01:25:07 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: In fact, here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GjvRAJaEc0 <-- which game?
01:25:28 <pikhq> FFX
01:25:37 <quintopia> Sgeo: try dpkg -I <archive file>
01:25:42 <quintopia> if you still have the archive
01:25:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, was that the one with the good themes?
01:25:57 <pikhq> Yes.
01:25:58 <pikhq> And yes, that *is* Nobuo Uematsu doing metal.
01:26:01 <quintopia> the size of the archive should correlate to the unpacked size
01:26:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, a lot higher 3D quality than the intro of it?
01:26:26 <pikhq> The intro was done by the PS2 hardware; this is pre-rendered.
01:26:34 <pikhq> Aaaand the very start of the plot.
01:26:43 <Vorpal> ah
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01:27:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: BTW, you should totally play this game. It is by far my favorite Final Fantasy game.
01:27:19 -!- Henoheno has changed nick to GreaseMonkey.
01:27:35 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Client Quit).
01:27:48 * Sgeo goes to watch some SGU
01:28:03 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:28:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, I doubt I have the hardware for it
01:28:23 <pikhq> A PS2 is cheap.
01:28:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, and: spoony bard. You can't get better than that
01:28:31 <pikhq> As is FFX.
01:28:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm not going to get a PS2
01:28:39 <Vorpal> just no
01:28:46 <pikhq> There's a lot of good JRPGs for the PS2.
01:28:51 <pikhq> A *lot*.
01:28:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, besides I doubt it would be easy to find one around here
01:28:55 <alise> what's wrong with ps2s
01:29:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Should be.
01:29:02 <alise> besides you could emulate (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha no)
01:29:14 <pikhq> Worst case scenario, buy one new.
01:29:24 <Vorpal> alise, I suspect it would be non-trivial to emulate
01:29:24 <alise> a new ps2 costs like 3p :P
01:29:31 <alise> Vorpal: near-impossible with current hardware
01:29:36 <alise> what with that fancy emotion engine crap
01:29:36 <Vorpal> alise, indeed
01:29:37 <pikhq> alise: It's $99 for literally brand-new.
01:29:42 <alise> pikhq: so 3p
01:29:44 <Vorpal> alise, emotion engine?
01:29:47 <pikhq> Ah, right.
01:29:53 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_Engine
01:29:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: The PS2 had an absurd number of CPUs.
01:31:22 <pikhq> Main CPU, two vector CPUs, a general-purpose GPU, two audio CPUs, and an IO CPU (the Playstation I CPU).
01:31:38 <pikhq> Yes, to emulate a PS2 you need to emulate a PS1.
01:32:15 <pikhq> But, yeah. Sony is still manufacturing them.
01:32:19 <Vorpal> alise, (after reading link): how boring. For a split second after you said "emotion engine" I thought it was a CPU dedicated to calculating facial expressions or something XD
01:32:32 <alise> no it is the cpu that lets the computer feel
01:32:34 <pikhq> And have no plans to stop.
01:32:39 <Vorpal> hah
01:33:13 <pikhq> 10 years and counting.
01:33:34 <Vorpal> "Combined, the two channels of DRDRAM have a maximum theoretical bandwidth of 3.2 GB/s, about 33% more bandwidth than the internal data bus."
01:33:36 <Vorpal> wtf?
01:33:40 <Vorpal> what is the point of THAT
01:34:25 <quintopia> YA I KNOW RITE?
01:34:35 <pikhq> Sony is on record as saying they will continue making the PS2 until it stops selling. Dear me.
01:34:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, why does it still sell? With the PS3 around I mean
01:35:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: It has pretty most of the good games made from 2000 to, say, 2008.
01:35:27 <pikhq> s/pretty/
01:35:33 <pikhq> s/pretty//
01:35:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: And there are still games being made for it...
01:36:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, invalid: you must correct the first sed expression using the second. And now you have to sed your second expression to fix the first instead :P
01:36:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: And it *outsold the PS3* until 2009.
01:36:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, huh
01:36:41 <pikhq> Hell, it was outselling the Wii for quite a while.
01:41:12 <pikhq> The PS2: it prints money ™.
01:46:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: So, yeah. Get yous a PS2.
01:46:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, nah
01:47:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: But you must play FFX. And FFXII. And Persona 3. Absolutely positively must.
01:47:43 <pikhq> It is imperative.
01:48:00 <pikhq> Now go make the best-selling console of all time sell a bit better!
01:48:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, nah
01:48:46 <alise> <Vorpal> pikhq, why does it still sell? With the PS3 around I mean
01:48:46 <Vorpal> now: night
01:48:47 <alise> cost of PS3
01:48:50 <alise> PS3 doesn't support PS1 games
01:48:53 <alise> and it's ugly :)
01:48:57 <pikhq> alise: s/PS1/PS2/
01:49:02 <alise> whoa, doesn't it?
01:49:05 <alise> oh yeah they dropped that recently didn't they
01:49:06 <alise> fuckface
01:49:09 <alise> *fuckfaces
01:49:13 <pikhq> alise: It still plays PS1 games.
01:49:16 <alise> wat.
01:49:19 <pikhq> That was software emulation from day 1.
01:49:24 <alise> it plays PS1 but not PS2? :D
01:49:39 <pikhq> They actually sell PS1 games on PSN.
01:49:51 <pikhq> The *PSP* can play PS1 games as well.
01:50:20 <pikhq> My PS3 still has the PS2 hardware in it.
01:50:40 <pikhq> (made a point of getting a used one)
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01:58:22 <Vorpal> just one thing
01:58:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, wrt pre-rendered cutscene:
01:58:37 <Vorpal> thanks for the warning to avoid that game
01:58:46 <Vorpal> I hate pre-rendered cut scenes
01:59:04 <Vorpal> the difference in quality is often jarring
01:59:24 <Vorpal> and really breaks suspension of disbelief
01:59:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: Then you hate any game newer than '95.
02:00:00 <Vorpal> if there is one thing that I can't stand in games it is pre-rendered high quality cut scenes, when the actual game has lower image quality
02:00:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm what about n64, when was that?
02:01:03 <pikhq> Oh, right, the N64 didn't have the cartridge space for pre-rendered cut scenes.
02:01:05 <Vorpal> zelda oot lacks pre-rendered cut scenes
02:01:09 <Vorpal> for example
02:01:29 -!- pintassilgo has left (?).
02:01:38 <pikhq> Almost all PS1, PS2, PS3, Gamecube, Wii, Xbox, and Xbox 360 games have pre-rendered cutscenes.
02:01:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about PC games?
02:01:59 <pikhq> Yes.
02:02:03 <quintopia> Saints Row didn't have them, or at least, they were no higher quality than the game engine provided
02:02:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, varies
02:02:09 <quintopia> but i'm pretty sure they were scripted
02:02:19 <quintopia> and i'm sure ghost recon's cutscenes were just scripted
02:02:42 <pikhq> True; PC games can also opt for scripting cutscenes and have absolutely steller graphics. Better GPUs in general, and a need to deal with varying resolutions.
02:02:58 <pikhq> Vorpal: What would you think of a game that had *animated* cutscenes?
02:03:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do you mean? As in not a static image?
02:03:20 <Vorpal> I would prefer non-static image yes
02:03:29 <pikhq> As in an actual drawn animation.
02:03:43 <Vorpal> um
02:03:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, depends on what the rest of the game looks like
02:03:52 <alise> DISCUSSION OVER
02:03:54 <quintopia> I'm p cool with that
02:03:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, if 3D? then fuck it
02:04:01 <quintopia> World of Goo has great cutscenes
02:04:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Anime.
02:04:07 <alise> ALL THE CUTSCENES
02:04:11 <alise> (YES, ALL OF THEM)
02:04:15 <alise> cannot be beaten
02:04:21 <Vorpal> alise, agreed
02:04:24 <pikhq> Vorpal: You should play Persona 3.
02:04:25 <Vorpal> it is consistent
02:04:30 <pikhq> It is the best JRPG.
02:04:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, as I said, the cut scenes *must* look like the rest of the game
02:04:54 <alise> The Neverhood is the best JRPG, the best FPS, the best RTS, the best casual game, the best EVERYTHING
02:04:56 <Vorpal> otherwise I will just abort the game at the first cut scene
02:05:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: Stop it, you are denying yourself excellent games.
02:05:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: "The game *must* be made with sprites no better than what the SNES had"
02:05:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, I tried and I found that it is so extremely jarring it just puts me off it
02:05:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: "The game *must* have sequenced graphics"
02:05:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is completely different
02:05:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: "The game *must* use an NES controller"
02:05:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm asking for consistency
02:05:57 <Vorpal> not for limiting to SNES
02:06:10 <Vorpal> if the game itself has excellent graphics then so can the cut scenes
02:06:16 <Vorpal> it just has to be consistent
02:06:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, your attacks were just absurd :P
02:07:06 <pikhq> It's hard not to be when you're being absurd.
02:07:21 <pikhq> Though I will grant sometimes it's jarring
02:07:25 <pikhq> (looking at *you*, FF7)
02:07:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, no I don't. I hate cutscenes of _different quality_ than the parts of the game that isn't cut scenes
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02:07:55 <Vorpal> which is very different from hating good quality cut scenes
02:08:21 * Sgeo growls at YouTube
02:08:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzHpCOPsVbo Cutscene (intro, Persona 3), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drs140-CIf8 Gameplay (no spoilers)
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02:09:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, horrible music
02:09:51 <pikhq> ... You know what? You are not allowed to have opinions about games, you are a luddite.
02:10:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, what genre is it?
02:10:15 <pikhq> Here's a stick and string.
02:10:17 <pikhq> Enjoy.
02:10:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: The game? JRPG.
02:10:33 <pikhq> (with dating sim elements. It works. Somehow.)
02:10:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, the actual in game music is better
02:10:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, it was just the intro music that I found rather bad
02:11:27 <pikhq> Okay, then we have inconsistent opinions on Shouji Meguro. :P
02:12:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, though the battle music, while technically good is not really my cup of tea (to use a British idiom)
02:12:37 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkh-ZehNibg And this?
02:13:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, starts out good at least
02:13:47 <Vorpal> hm vocals, opera style?
02:13:52 <Vorpal> oh well
02:14:04 <pikhq> Yes. Because Shōji Meguro is stranger to no genre.
02:14:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, technically good, but I personally dislike vocals in opera style
02:15:08 <pikhq> You appear to have restricted tastes.
02:15:19 <pikhq> What *do* you like?
02:15:39 <Sgeo> Vorpal likes my singing
02:16:06 <pikhq> Sgeo: Okay, I'm sorry. He apparently has a burnt out musical-taste lobe.
02:16:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, remove the vocals (well that wouldn't work, replace it with some instrument, maybe violins?) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkh-ZehNibg would be awesome (it is already very good)
02:16:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't think I said I liked Sgeo singing?
02:16:32 * Sgeo was joking
02:16:47 <Vorpal> I found it very nasty
02:17:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, example of a game where I liked all music: zelda oot
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02:17:15 <pikhq> You... Have astoundingly narrow tastes.
02:17:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, no
02:17:20 <Sgeo> Vorpal, do you like the Aquaria music?
02:17:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, it was just an example
02:17:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I have no clue what that is, so no idea
02:17:52 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJEpxPWJAh8
02:18:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm... I like Gregor's music too :)
02:18:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqZpngl1LwI And this? (random remake on the soundtrack album, not in the game)
02:18:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, queued
02:19:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm futurama theme is also nice btw.
02:19:33 <pikhq> Still, you are disallowed from playing JRPGs. You hate the freaking theme of the best series bar none. :P
02:19:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, I like that final fantasy I played on SNES
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02:20:04 <pikhq> FF6.
02:20:05 <Vorpal> not the spoony bard one
02:20:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, one with floating continent or such?
02:20:25 <Vorpal> iirc
02:20:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, whatever number that one had
02:21:04 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJEpxPWJAh8 <-- rather restful. Game music? Which genre?
02:21:19 <alise> <Vorpal> otherwise I will just abort the game at the first cut scene ;; lol
02:21:20 <Sgeo> Yes, game music.
02:21:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, I like NWN1 music too btw.
02:21:37 <Vorpal> and wesnoth has awesome music
02:21:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: I swear, I am going to fly over there and force you to play some games some day.
02:21:47 <Sgeo> Not sure what genre, but I've heard Aquaria described as something like Metroid and.. Castlevania? I haven't played those
02:21:55 <pikhq> Because God.
02:22:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFIOuQjgMYY more spirited
02:22:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway, secret of mana had mostly good music too
02:23:00 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqZpngl1LwI And this? (random remake on the soundtrack album, not in the game) <-- starts out very nice, a bit jazzy
02:23:09 <Vorpal> and I like jazz
02:23:34 <Vorpal> well, quite far from jazz, at least traditional jazz... Still very good
02:24:02 <Vorpal> this is the last one before I go to sleep
02:24:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, will queue that one for tomorrow
02:25:41 <alise> Vorpal: are you ever going to go to fucking bed like you said three times?
02:25:53 <Vorpal> alise, two I think
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02:26:22 <Vorpal> alise, and I invoke the Swedish idiom "tredje gången gilt" (translation left as exercise to the reader.
02:26:25 <Vorpal> thus: night →
02:26:52 <Sgeo> Night Vorpal
02:28:28 <alise> nobody gives a shit about you enough to translate what you say
02:35:17 <Sgeo> alise, don't turn into Vorpal please
02:35:25 <Sgeo> (Yes, I know it's really Vorpal turning into you)
02:35:49 <Sgeo> When was the last time I insulted someone in this channel?
02:36:39 <alise> 5 years
02:39:30 <Sgeo> I assume you're just making it up, unless you link to logfile
02:40:20 <alise> you haven't been here 5 years
02:41:43 <Sgeo> I remember discussing when I first came in
02:41:55 <Sgeo> I mean, seeing the logs recently
02:42:00 <Sgeo> I was asking about PESOIX
02:42:11 <Sgeo> Premonition of evil things to come
02:44:32 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP7nBFk1C20&NR=1
02:44:38 <Sgeo> I love the Aquaria soundtrack
02:44:40 <Sgeo> <3<3<3
02:51:33 <Sgeo> http://www.project10tothe100.com/ideas.html
02:51:50 <Sgeo> An idea I had a very long time ago would fall under "Create real-world issue reporting system"
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03:31:41 * Sgeo has discovered a new virtual world
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04:20:28 <Sgeo> alise, when you see this: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010529
04:21:00 <alise> lawl
04:22:14 <pikhq> Hey, Userfriendly. A webcomic that follows newspaper comic conventions!
04:22:24 <pikhq> (*especially* the "no art change ever" one)
04:24:08 <alise> pikhq: And the "not being funny" one
04:24:39 <quintopia> thank god the far side never followed those conventions
04:25:29 <pikhq> Nor did Calvin & Hobbes.
04:26:12 <alise> NOR DID GARFIELD
04:26:16 * alise gets shot
04:26:16 <quintopia> lol
04:26:18 <quintopia> good one
04:26:22 <quintopia> no, i snickered
04:26:24 <alise> garfield is so post-modern man
04:26:28 <pikhq> Dear God Garfield actually had art change, didn't it.
04:26:45 <alise> Garfield is awesome because you know that it's actually taking place inside an empty house while Garfield is starving to death and hallucinating because of it.
04:26:50 <alise> Source: The Halloween sequence.
04:26:59 <alise> Sure, Jim Davies SAYS it's not canon... but we know the truth.
04:27:01 <alise> WE KNOW THE TRUTH
04:27:04 <pikhq> Yes, that sequence is awesome.
04:27:30 <quintopia> well, Garfield may have changed art once, but it fits perfectly the "not being funny" convention
04:28:45 <Sgeo> Oh wait, alise is awake for some unfathomable reason
04:28:57 <alise> Shut the hell up about when I'm awake.
04:29:01 <alise> :|
04:29:33 <quintopia> what time is it alise?
04:30:05 <pikhq> quintopia: It had art evolution, actually.
04:30:19 <alise> 4:29am
04:30:22 <alise> *4:29 am
04:30:26 <Sgeo> Illiad never made episode 2
04:31:05 <pikhq> quintopia: http://www.garfield.com/comics/vault.html?yr=1989&addr=891023 Also, you must read this.
04:31:17 <pikhq> (storyline)
04:32:32 <quintopia> the stupid flash won't work for me :/
04:32:34 <quintopia> oh well
04:34:22 <Sgeo> http://www.userfriendly.org/animation/episode1.html
04:34:27 <Sgeo> I actually liked this when I was a kid
04:35:44 <pikhq> The problem with Userfriendly is simple: it is bland as hell.
04:36:07 <pikhq> Unfortunately, this is the normal expectation of comics.
04:40:48 <quintopia> PHD tends to be pretty good on that front though.
04:40:53 <quintopia> Quite a lot of them are lolworthy
04:44:13 <pikhq> SMBC's quite good.
04:44:42 <pikhq> Cyanide & Happiness is good sometimes, though it does dead baby humor so much that it actually *becomes* mundane somehow. :P
04:45:48 <pikhq> Dinosaur Comics is just awesomeness in comic form.
04:46:05 <pikhq> And Dr. McNinja is awesomeness².
04:49:31 <alise> Dinosaur Comics > everything
04:49:44 <alise> pikhq: pictures for sad children
04:49:50 <alise> is the only one that can even compete with dinosaur comics
04:51:38 <pikhq> alise: Dr. McNinja is more about being the epitomy of epicness to the exclusion of all else. I don't think you can really compare it with comedic comics, because, uh. It's about having crowning moments of awesome.
04:51:45 <pikhq> Which it is very good at.
04:54:07 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3G5IXn0K7A why does this exist? I don't dislike it or anything, but who would bother?
04:54:40 <Sgeo> [Warning: ancient Internet meme]
04:54:51 <alise> oh yeah they remade it like 50 times
04:54:55 <alise> to cash in on the popularity
04:55:18 <Sgeo> How did they "cash in" though?
04:55:20 <pikhq> I refuse to click because I am listening to good music ATM.
04:55:25 <pikhq> So, what meme?
04:55:33 <Sgeo> Hampster dance
04:55:39 <Sgeo> *Hamster
04:55:45 <pikhq> Okay, kill it with fire the meme. Got it.
04:55:55 <alise> it is catchy though
04:55:59 <alise> Sgeo: released as a single
04:56:04 <Sgeo> Ah o.O
04:56:29 <Sgeo> I first heard it (at least a section of it) in a weird way
04:56:50 <Sgeo> http://www.4chan.org/flash/?file=comeback4chan.swf&title=Come+Back+4chan
04:56:53 <Sgeo> (SFW, I _think_)
04:56:57 <alise> Wow.
04:57:06 <alise> Black and White makes the low HP battle music *not horrible*.
04:57:07 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp0TcjM7wUM
04:58:08 * Sgeo read about Pokemon as a kid. And that's it
04:58:19 <Sgeo> Had a book that listed all of them, think I had a story
04:58:20 <alise> Just ... read about it?
04:58:44 <Sgeo> I might have played Pokemon Snap at a friend's house once, and .. the thing with the arena at camp
05:00:42 <pikhq> You. Emulator. Pokémon. Now.
05:01:05 <pikhq> (or, if you prefer: hǫke'to monnsutâsù)
05:01:41 <Sgeo> I remember reading a book that had a section for parents. It said something like "You endured a talking purple dinosaur, you can endure this"
05:02:03 <pikhq> Nao.
05:02:28 <pikhq> Why are you wasting time when you could be playing the game?
05:02:50 <Sgeo> I remember friends at my house when I was showing off Macromedia Shockwave thingy that I just learned about and I asked them for something for me to do. They had me have "Mew" scroll across the screen, iirc
05:03:09 <Sgeo> I still do not know why it was on my computer
05:03:19 <pikhq> I said nao
05:03:27 <Sgeo> If I could find the tutorial animations again, that would be amazing
05:03:50 <Sgeo> I also had a book. I think the book came after me finding that, not sure
05:03:54 <pikhq> alise: My god they made the low HP battle music sound good.
05:03:58 <Sgeo> Also, after I eat, I need to go to sleep
05:04:22 <alise> pikhq: Also: "No Gen I-IV Pokemon pre-national dex. Which means no more Zubats, Tentacools and Geodudes."
05:04:27 <alise> Also:
05:04:29 <alise> [[Fake Longevity: At long last AVERTED, battles are extremely sped up compared to the previous games, and without animations, it's essentially as fast as you can push the buttons.
05:04:29 <alise> And the task of catching all of the Pokemon is mitigated A LOT by the Dream World having essentially every Pokemon available to find. Some require codes of course, but still!]]
05:04:33 <alise> They took Pokemon and removed all the shitty parts!
05:04:36 <pikhq> NO FUCKING BATS
05:04:39 <alise> Now let's see how they made the game last longer than three seconds!
05:04:39 <pikhq> NO FUCKING BATS
05:04:49 <alise> pikhq: They'll add more bats, just differently-named and different looking ones :P
05:05:01 <alise> pikhq: You should play it.
05:05:09 <alise> I assume the Japanese will pose no trouble for you.
05:05:19 <Sgeo> How much space would an emulator and the game take up?
05:05:21 <pikhq> alise: I totally will.
05:05:26 <pikhq> Sgeo: Megabytes?
05:05:30 <Sgeo> I'm kind of on a low-space budget right now, for obvious reasons
05:05:34 <Sgeo> I think I have 50 left
05:05:52 <alise> pikhq: aren't DS cartridges like
05:05:53 <alise> more
05:06:17 <alise> Cards currently range from 64 megabits to 4 gigabits (8–512 MiB) in size (although the maximum capacity is unknown).
05:06:36 <alise> Sgeo: 8 to 512 megabytes (as you know them)
05:06:39 <pikhq> alise: For a Gameboy cart?
05:06:40 <alise> also, delete some fucking shit
05:06:41 <alise> pikhq: DS...
05:06:49 <Sgeo> I need Factor.
05:06:50 <alise> pikhq: The last generation (remake) was DS, too :P
05:06:52 <Sgeo> I need Second Life.
05:07:00 <alise> pikhq: Protip: Gameboys aren't made any more
05:07:12 <pikhq> alise: "Emulator"
05:07:23 <alise> wait, the last one wasn't a remake either. XD
05:07:25 <pikhq> alise: Also: Pokemon Red & Blue is for the Gameboy biznitch. :P
05:07:30 <alise> pikhq: What do you mean "Emulator"?
05:07:34 <Sgeo> Wow, Factor is huge
05:07:41 <Sgeo> 114.9MB
05:07:45 <alise> Pokemon Black and White, like Diamond, Pearl and Platinum, are *DS* games.
05:07:58 <pikhq> Yes, but Red & Blue is *Gameboy*.
05:08:06 <Sgeo> I may have a slightly warped understanding of "huge"
05:08:14 <alise> pikhq: I was talking about playing Black & White, which have removed the suck.
05:08:24 <alise> They aren't out in English yet, you see.
05:08:29 <Sgeo> What was Gold?
05:08:37 <Sgeo> Assuming I'm not hallucinating that?
05:08:49 <pikhq> Gold & Silver were the first sequel.
05:08:52 <Sgeo> And I mean, besides me
05:09:06 <Sgeo> Huh? Two games to a generation? Red and blue aren't separate?
05:09:27 <alise> ...
05:09:29 <alise> yes, two games to a generation
05:09:30 <alise> like always
05:09:46 <alise> pikhq: You can be the first person to start with a Pokemon *other* than Tsutarja!
05:10:08 <pikhq> Well, there was often a 0.5 gen game.
05:10:12 <Sgeo> How much of your Pokemon love is due to nostalgia?
05:10:13 <pikhq> (Yellow, Crystal, etc.)
05:10:24 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's a reasonable JRPG, actually.
05:10:26 <alise> Sgeo: none
05:10:31 <alise> i didn't play a pokemon game before Sapphire
05:10:35 <pikhq> Bit light on the plot, but not bad mechanically.
05:10:40 <alise> or was it someone else's copy of ruby, eh
05:10:41 <alise> whatever
05:10:44 <alise> they are excellent
05:10:48 <alise> although irritating
05:10:57 <alise> black & white speeding up battles will make it nicer
05:11:19 <pikhq> Though for me nostalgia definitely kicks in. It was my first JRPG. :P
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05:11:38 <alise> pikhq: third games are pretty much inevitable now
05:11:46 <alise> Red, Green, Blue, and Yellow • Gold, Silver, and Crystal • Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald • Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum • Black and White
05:11:52 <alise> one of these things is not yet like the others
05:11:59 <pikhq> Ah, right.
05:12:18 <Sgeo> Grey?
05:12:22 <alise> or transparent
05:12:23 <alise> :P
05:12:27 <alise> FireRed and LeafGreen • HeartGold and SoulSilver ;; neither of these count :P
05:12:38 <pikhq> Ah, remakes.
05:12:49 <Sgeo> What's the difference between Red and Blue?
05:12:55 <Sgeo> For example
05:13:05 <pikhq> Encounter tables.
05:13:18 <alise> dunno but for sapphire/ruby it's
05:13:30 <alise> the name of the bad guys, plot elements, the colour of the box art, and one pokemon unique to each
05:13:35 <alise> you can only get both by trading
05:13:57 <pikhq> *Unless* you're in Japan, in which case Blue was the bug-fix rerelease with a different map setup and art, which all the foreign releases were based on.
05:14:11 <pikhq> alise: For the first gen, there were a *lot* of Pokemon unique to each.
05:14:17 <pikhq> And no other differences.
05:14:25 <pikhq> It was just the encounter tables.
05:14:41 <alise> Goodnight.
05:14:42 <alise> Bye.
05:14:44 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:16:01 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and the Japanese versions of the games also had Mew attainable without bugs.
05:16:13 <pikhq> (motherfucking bad export for you)
05:18:30 <Gregor> I have Windows NT MIPS running :)
05:18:45 <pikhq>
05:18:45 <zzo38> I have heard about the new Pokemon Black/White, and that one change is that the pokemon numbers now start at zero.
05:18:59 <pikhq> zzo38: And there's 150 Pokemon.
05:19:11 <pikhq> For the first time in, oh, 14 years.
05:19:34 <zzo38> (They don't start at one anymore, although number 1 is still the grass starter, not number 0)
05:20:19 <zzo38> What I want to see in a pokemon game is another mode which adds limitations and removes some features and changes some, to make a bit different kind of game.
05:21:18 <zzo38> (Another thing I have heard about the new game is that there is now a Flying/Null type)
05:22:35 <pikhq> It still amazes me how Mew was put into Pokemon.
05:23:16 <pikhq> A programmer snuck it in and didn't tell anyone until after the game came out.
05:24:13 <zzo38> pikhq: That is how? I didn't know that.
05:25:25 <augur> yo
05:28:28 <Gregor> YES
05:28:29 <Gregor> YESSSSSSSSSSS
05:28:32 <Gregor> OMGYESYESYES
05:28:36 <Gregor> Visual C++ 2.0 for MIPS
05:28:59 <Sgeo> WARNIGN: I AM TIRED
05:29:08 <Sgeo> Along with all consequences of Sgeoan tiredness
05:29:09 <Sgeo> Sgena
05:29:11 <Sgeo> Sgean
05:33:38 <pikhq> zzo38: Couple weeks before they shipped the code out to be masked onto ROMs.
05:35:37 <zzo38> pikhq: OK. Thanks for telling me that
05:36:09 <Sgeo> You mean Mew wasn't an official promo thingy?
05:36:30 <Gregor> I have created ... A BINARY!
05:37:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: Nope, it was a complete and utter surprise to Nintendo.
05:37:39 <Sgeo> According to Wikipedia, it helped make Pokemon a success
05:37:40 <pikhq> They took the code for actually getting it *without* a promotion out of the out-of-Japan release, though.
05:37:57 <pikhq> (on the Japanese version, catching all Pokemon gave you a Mew)
05:41:18 <Sgeo> Wait
05:41:24 <Sgeo> Mewtwo's existence was deliberate?
05:41:40 <Sgeo> And so there was a hypothetical "Mew", just not expected to be programmed in?
05:41:45 <pikhq> Yes.
05:42:10 <pikhq> Mewtwo was in a bonus dungeon.
05:42:40 <pikhq> (beat the game, go to Cerulean Cave, get you a Mewtwo. Hope you held on to that Masterball!)
05:42:49 <Sgeo> Sorry, I'm not interested in Ubuntu
05:42:52 <Sgeo> >.>
05:43:25 <pikhq> Yeah, but your mom is. All night long.
05:43:35 <Sgeo> ...
05:44:24 <Sgeo> You know what, I don't care. I don't really take those jokes personally
05:45:36 <Gregor> People take those jokes personally?
05:45:41 <Gregor> The concept is absurd.
05:45:59 <pikhq> I didn't know it was possible to take them personally.
05:46:04 <Sgeo> I didn't mean it like that
05:46:09 <Sgeo> As in, me getting offended
05:46:31 <pikhq> ... I didn't know it was even meant to be all that offensive.
05:47:03 <pikhq> The very premise is too absurd.
05:47:10 <pikhq> Much like your mother.
05:47:42 <Sgeo> My mother died in 2004
05:48:10 <pikhq> And?
05:48:58 <Sgeo> I think basing people's unwillingness to make "Your mother" jokes on alise's reaction may have been a mistake
05:48:58 <pikhq> I don't mean to be rude or anything, but... It's a freaking "your mom" joke. It's not a slight against your mother, it's hardly even a reference to her, it's just a mildly cliché form of joke.
05:49:17 <Sgeo> pikhq, but I'm used to alise avoiding all mention of such jokes, is all
05:50:03 <Sgeo> alise, when you read this: I don't care anymore, I won't get offended
05:51:24 <Gregor> "Mildly cliché"?
05:51:28 <Gregor> It is 100% cliché.
05:51:32 <Gregor> It is entirely a cliché.
05:51:46 <Gregor> It's such a cliché it has transcended cliché. It is a metacliché.
05:51:50 <Sgeo> clíche
05:52:36 <Sgeo> Typing those accents is mildly annoying for me due to the missing key
05:53:15 <Gregor> ♥ compose key
05:53:19 <pikhq> Gregor: I have attained a habit of understating things from Japanese.
05:53:25 <Sgeo> Yes, but accents require the compose key..
05:53:29 <Sgeo>
05:53:29 <pikhq> (it's polite)
05:53:30 <Sgeo> Oooh
05:54:11 <Sgeo> Is there a list of compose key shenanigans somewhere?
05:54:19 <Sgeo> Compose-<-3 is awesome!
05:54:19 <quintopia> yes
05:54:21 <quintopia> but
05:54:30 <quintopia> they are all so obvious you shouldn't need it
05:54:45 <quintopia> compose-m-u is
05:54:47 <Sgeo> quintopia, if I don't realise that a heart can be done with compose key, I wouldn't even think to try it
05:54:59 <Sgeo> µtorrent
05:55:10 <quintopia> is 1-2
05:55:13 <Sgeo> compose-p-i is not pi
05:55:13 <quintopia> is 3-4
05:55:25 <quintopia> yeah that bothered me too
05:55:33 <quintopia> there is no composed pi
05:55:49 <Sgeo> Encyclopædia Dramætica
05:56:22 <quintopia> is L--
05:56:29 <Sgeo> I just want the list
05:56:39 <quintopia> use your google fu
05:56:42 <quintopia> it ain't that hard to find
05:56:59 <Sgeo> C♯
05:57:32 <quintopia> erjan
05:57:38 <Sgeo> Tired insanity ©Sgeo
05:58:01 <Sgeo> 1÷0
05:58:27 <quintopia> commas put tails on things to get french letter
05:58:30 <quintopia>
05:58:38 <Sgeo> 100¢
05:58:45 <Sgeo> Who uses ¢ these days?
05:59:21 <pikhq> Use it to repla¢e c.
05:59:27 <Sgeo> ¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹⁰
05:59:47 <Sgeo> âĉê
06:00:25 <pikhq> tàiakuritiŧkusu.
06:00:39 <Sgeo> The table that Wikipedia has doens't mention ♥
06:01:52 <Sgeo> ±
06:02:18 <Sgeo>
06:02:21 <Sgeo> HOT
06:02:52 <Sgeo>
06:02:59 <Sgeo> I'm a ♮ at this
06:03:03 <zzo38> There are uses of TeX trigraphs in CWEB programs, for example, if you want a literal "|" in the TeX output, if you want a literal "*/" in the TeX output, or if you want a space at the beginning of a line.
06:03:59 <Sgeo> I don't see ♥ on this list
06:04:10 <quintopia> it's a new one
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06:04:34 <quintopia> sgeo: also, it's unicode
06:04:39 <quintopia> so you shouldn't use it
06:04:45 <zzo38> Or, if you want to stop CWEB from complaining about unmatched braces in comments
06:04:55 <quintopia> just like you should use the superscripted 4-0 you printed above
06:05:08 <quintopia> *shouldn't
06:05:35 <quintopia> because this is IRC dammit, and we have laws!
06:05:41 <quintopia> i mean, uh, social conventions!
06:06:28 <zzo38> IRC works best with plain ASCII, although UTF-8 and things like that can be used, too, if all relevant clients are configured correctly.
06:07:09 <zzo38> (I have PuTTY configured to use UTF-8, so anything that isn't valid UTF-8 will print as a block)
06:07:43 <zzo38> And it is possible to change what characters can be entered by the compose key.
06:08:42 <pikhq> quintopia: I hereby ban non-Unicode.
06:09:25 <pikhq> I demand þat þe Unicode be uſèd!
06:09:42 <pikhq> Are þere any who would conteſt þis?
06:11:15 <quintopia> the convention is so that people on mobile clients and such that don't support unicode aren't constantly bitching about funky gibberish in their screen
06:11:31 <zzo38> Yes, for one thing my IRC client does not have capability to send unicode (although it can receive unicode OK).
06:11:55 <quintopia> in another channel, there is a bot that lets you set a catchphrase that displays when you enter, and i set mine to a plain old message, but every letter was changed to its unicode equivalent
06:12:27 <quintopia> and people on mobile clients bitched and moaned because it translated to gibberish that was twice as long and filled up their screens so they couldn't read what was actually happening in the channel
06:12:55 <quintopia> i got very unpopular for a while there
06:13:05 <zzo38> Plain old message? What unicode equivalent?
06:13:40 <quintopia> It said something like "Whogivesafuckaboutan encoding?"
06:13:55 <quintopia> But all of those characters were the unicode versions
06:14:07 <Gregor> Shockingly, Visual C++ 2.0 MIPS doesn't have getopt.
06:14:10 <pikhq> quintopia: Þat's bullſhit. If you can't do Unicode in þis day and age, you do not deſerve Internet access.
06:14:19 <quintopia> I don't know how to generate them here, but on my old OS, shift+space switched to an all-unicode input mode
06:14:44 <pikhq> I suppoſe next you'll be saying we should mandate þat we uſe only HTML 1?
06:14:48 <quintopia> pikhq: some mobile devices just don't HAVE unicode-supporting clients yet
06:14:58 <quintopia> primarily because the devices themselves don't natively support unicode
06:15:04 <pikhq> And þoſe devices are þus BROKEN
06:15:18 <zzo38> ASCII codes are the same in UTF-8, unless overlong encodings are used.
06:15:25 <quintopia> no, because everyone doesn't have to see when people bitch about webpages not displaying
06:15:34 <zzo38> pikhq: You shouldn't use any HTML on IRC
06:15:37 <pikhq> I repeat: not supporting UTF-8 is brain damage of the worst kind.
06:15:39 <zzo38> It doesn't matter HTML 1 or not
06:15:42 <pikhq> zzo38: No, I mean *on the web*.
06:16:01 <quintopia> yes, the devices are broken pikhq, but people have them nonetheless
06:16:04 <pikhq> zzo38: HTML 1 *on the web*. Because some moron might be using an ooold browser.
06:16:12 <pikhq> quintopia: I care not.
06:16:12 <quintopia> and those are the people we have to deal with when they whine about it
06:16:16 <zzo38> pikhq: O, sorry. If you want efficiently and full compatible, use plain text, don't use HTML at all if HTML is not necessary.
06:16:31 <quintopia> sticking to ISO 8859-1 isn't all that hard to do
06:16:32 <pikhq> zzo38: Oh, right, it's you. With the Gopher server. :P
06:16:34 <zzo38> If it is necessary, use HTML, use whatever tags are important, and any tags the browser does not understand will be ignored.
06:16:36 <zzo38> So, it is OK.
06:16:49 <pikhq> quintopia: この言語はISO 8859-1にないぜ!
06:17:14 <quintopia> i don't speak that language
06:17:26 <pikhq> quintopia: Also, *yes it is*. You realise that ISO 8859-1 is actually hardly ever used?
06:17:28 <quintopia> take that to your silly asian irc server
06:17:40 <pikhq> quintopia: Instead what is used is a Microsoft code page that is *similar*.
06:17:52 <pikhq> But is always advertised as ISO 8859-1.
06:18:09 <pikhq> I repeat: non-Unicode is brain damage of the worst kinda and it should be murdered.
06:18:20 <pikhq> Not merely stopped, MURDERED IN A COLD ALLEY.
06:18:37 <quintopia> how should i know what is actually being used? i just tell IRC to only transmit 8859-1. if it fucks that up, i really don't care, because it works for all the characters i use on a regular basis
06:19:22 <quintopia> i already told you i agreed with you on that front
06:19:45 <zzo38> My program utfeight.tex supports overlong encodings and calls them valid. You might use them to enter unicode characters that are equivalent of ASCII codes but you don't want them to be used as those TeX commands
06:19:48 <quintopia> i'm just explaining why that convention came into existence
06:20:04 <pikhq> The convention on Freenode *is* to use UTF-8, BTW.
06:20:34 <zzo38> The convention on my IRC server is to use plain ASCII, although you can use UTF-8 if you want.
06:20:56 <pikhq> Also: I care not for conventions that exist only to support retarded software that's decades out of date.
06:21:07 <quintopia> Fine. For you.
06:21:24 <pikhq> And I *hate* having to deal with the encoding game for Japanese.
06:21:42 <pikhq> (attitudes like YOURS are responsible for there being 4 encodings in common use for Japanese and OH GOD MAKE IT STOP)
06:22:10 <quintopia> attitudes like mine?
06:22:17 <quintopia> you don't even know what my attitude is
06:22:19 <pikhq> "It works just fine so let's not change it"
06:22:48 <pikhq> This is why typical Japanese IRC uses a character encoding designed for being compatible with a DOS encoding that supported ASCII + half-width katakana.
06:22:52 <pikhq> (vomit)
06:22:55 <quintopia> yeah, i never said "it works just fine"
06:23:00 <quintopia> it doesn't work just fine
06:23:04 <quintopia> it works fine FOR ME
06:23:11 <quintopia> so I won't change it
06:23:19 <pikhq> And that is the problem.
06:23:33 <quintopia> it's not a problem
06:23:41 <quintopia> i don't ever write in japanese
06:23:42 <zzo38> For English channels that have Japanese text typed in it, though, UTF-8 is more commonly used for that purpose.
06:23:45 <quintopia> i couldn't have caused that problem
06:24:00 <pikhq> No, but the same attitude causes that problem in Japanese.
06:24:19 <quintopia> people being wrong is not an attitude
06:24:22 <pikhq> BTW, English doesn't fit in ASCII or ISO 8859-1. Just FYI.
06:24:45 <zzo38> Why doesn't English fit in ASCII or ISO 8859-1?
06:25:04 <pikhq> zzo38: “Quotation marks”, anyone‽
06:25:12 <quintopia> meh
06:25:17 <quintopia> " is good enough for me
06:25:24 <quintopia> unambiguous by placement
06:25:25 <zzo38> That is, if you don't want straight quotation marks
06:25:41 <quintopia> curly quotes are silly anyway
06:25:58 <pikhq> Loan words; comprendé?
06:25:59 <zzo38> Curly quotes should be used only in books, not on computer text documents
06:26:16 <quintopia> and interrobangs should be used nowhere
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06:26:56 <quintopia> pikhq: i don't know any common use loan words that don't fit in ISO i8859-1
06:26:58 <pikhq> Diaresis, perhaps? (as in “coöperate” or “naïve”)
06:27:09 <Sgeo> Let'ſ ſee if I´ll have to kill anyone oveſ Unicode ♥
06:27:15 <pikhq> quintopia: "Arigatō".
06:27:18 <zzo38> You can use backspace to compose characters in plain ASCII, although a lot of program do not accept that
06:27:34 <Sgeo> Workſ perſectly ſor me
06:27:38 <quintopia> pikhq: we spell it arigato here.
06:27:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: You fail at long s.
06:27:56 * Sgeo prepareſ to die by pikhq'ſ handſ
06:27:57 <pikhq> quintopia: Yes, and that's a completely horrifically wrong spelling.
06:28:10 <zzo38> I can see files that use backspace with the same character twice to make bold
06:28:11 <quintopia> pikhq: tends to be the case with loan words
06:28:18 <Sgeo> Yes, I know that ſ isn't f
06:28:21 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't think you are supposed to ever use long s at the end of a word
06:28:26 <quintopia> since we don't really borrow them, just steal them and modify them to our liking
06:28:38 <Sgeo> And I knew that too, although I think someone said that it used to be used there
06:28:42 <zzo38> And in modern typing, long s is not used at all
06:29:01 <Sgeo> When did schools stop teaching ſ?
06:29:17 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know, but it isn't commonly used these days anyways
06:29:24 <Sgeo> When did public education come to be, for that matter?
06:29:37 * Sgeo feels clueleſs
06:29:44 <quintopia> sgeo: in the U.S., long before the declaration of independence
06:29:51 <pikhq> quintopia: Also, dashes — as opposed to the common hyphen — are not in ASCII or ISO 8859-1.
06:30:05 <quintopia> 1647 in Massachusetts
06:30:08 <Sgeo> quintopia, that's the answer to which question?
06:30:15 <pikhq> quintopia: EEEEHHHH, wrong. Long s came out of use during the 1800s.
06:30:18 <quintopia> public education
06:30:30 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Public education. Right.
06:30:30 <quintopia> pikhq: neato
06:30:52 <pikhq> It's written "In Congreſs Aſsembled" on the Constitution.
06:30:53 <Sgeo> How many people were angered by everyone's use of s?
06:30:54 <pikhq> :)
06:31:32 <Sgeo> What is with the weird a?
06:31:37 <Sgeo> No one writes a like a
06:31:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: If you want to be über-cool, use ß for “ſ”.
06:31:48 <quintopia> I do, when i want it to be pretty
06:31:49 <pikhq> Erm.
06:31:54 <pikhq> “ſs”.
06:31:57 <quintopia> thank you
06:32:00 <quintopia> i was about to say...
06:32:07 <pikhq> (ß is the ligature for ſs)
06:32:24 <zzo38> Only in German, isn't it?
06:32:24 <Sgeo> aßßaßßination
06:32:26 <Sgeo> oops
06:32:34 <Sgeo> aßaßination
06:32:36 <Sgeo> I see it!
06:32:37 <pikhq> zzo38: No, though it fell out of use in English in the 1600s.
06:32:45 <zzo38> pikhq: O, OK
06:32:50 <Sgeo> ſs does look like ß
06:32:57 <pikhq> And was a bit uncommon starting in the 1500s.
06:32:57 <quintopia> pikhq: and when did fall out of use in english?
06:33:09 <pikhq> quintopia: Printing press.
06:33:13 <zzo38> Sgeo: It does if you put it close together
06:33:26 <zzo38> That is probably where it comes from
06:33:44 <pikhq> quintopia: Printers didn't have glyphs for þ, so they substituted first "y" and then "th".
06:33:45 <quintopia> and per se and is my fave ligature
06:33:51 <quintopia> in some faces, they are very pretty
06:33:53 <Sgeo> If I were to take a document containing "the" to back then, would it be understandable?
06:34:11 <pikhq> (this, BTW, is where we get the bizarre "ye old" thing. Because "y" was substituting for þ.)
06:34:28 <pikhq> zzo38: That *is* where it comes from.
06:34:34 <pikhq> zzo38: It is the ligature of ſs.
06:35:23 <Sgeo>
06:35:38 <quintopia> you got that right
06:37:05 <quintopia> i should go to bed if i'm gonna get up in 5.5 hours
06:37:13 <Sgeo> Þe quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
06:37:14 <Sgeo> Dammit
06:37:24 <Sgeo> Twice
06:37:36 <Sgeo> Þe quick brown fox jumps over Þe lazy dog
06:37:47 <Sgeo> *þe
06:37:58 <pikhq> “Þe quick brown fox jumps over þe lazy dog”, þou mean'ſt.
06:38:49 <Sgeo> mean'st?
06:39:02 <Gregor> I feel I almost have netcat for NT MIPS
06:39:10 <quintopia> Sgeo: you might find this interesting, in a scan it for info kind of way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_School_Laws
06:39:22 <Sgeo> I need to go to sleep
06:40:09 <augur> peeoples!
06:40:19 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes.
06:52:31 <Sgeo> Wikipedia claims that þ is Compose-T
06:52:39 <Sgeo> Which makes no sense
06:53:12 * Sgeo wtfs at Ctrl-Shift-ude
06:53:19 <Sgeo> What sense does that make?
06:53:57 <Sgeo> Oh, for unicode
06:54:03 <Sgeo> Huh, that makes a weird sort of sense
06:54:33 <Sgeo> ÿ
06:54:44 <Sgeo> How do you type it when the unicode has digits?
06:55:41 <Sgeo> Oh, got it
06:55:46 <Sgeo>
06:55:50 <Sgeo> This is fun!
06:56:07 <zzo38> I don't like the \outer command in TeX.
06:56:34 <Sgeo>
06:56:42 <Sgeo> Ctrl-Shift-U2603
06:56:44 <pikhq> hey, look, it's 口+勹+缶!
06:57:56 <Sgeo> ⚠Fire in the disco⚠
06:57:57 <Sgeo> ⚠Fire in the disco⚠
06:58:15 <Sgeo> ⚠Fire at the Taco Bell⚠
06:59:02 <Sgeo> ⚠Don't you want to know how we keep starting fires‽
06:59:22 <Sgeo> It's my desire! It's my desire!
07:00:32 -!- augur has changed nick to AugurMD.
07:00:46 <Gregor> Feh, got netcat to compile on NT MIPS, but it doesn't work :P
07:01:01 -!- AugurMD has changed nick to augur.
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07:06:55 <Sgeo> Placebo effect can't stain teeth, can it?
07:07:18 <Sgeo> Either my mouthwash is staining my teeth after two uses, or my teeth are really screwed up
07:07:25 <Sgeo> Or I just haven't noticed before
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07:09:27 <pikhq> Your teeth may be really screwed up.
07:13:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a4gyJsY0mc potentially nsfw, but no skin. Also certainly nsfh
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07:40:33 <Gregor> So who wants SSH into Windows? X-P
07:40:38 <Gregor> Windows MIPS that iss
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07:54:28 <zzo38> \def\defnoexpand#1{\def#1{\noexpand#1\noexpand}}
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08:34:57 <zzo38> Here is an example demonstrating some of the new features of Enhanced CWEB version 0.3: http://sprunge.us/RBID
08:37:03 <zzo38> Any questions??
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09:54:36 <Vorpal> hm bogosort isn't stable right?
09:54:53 <Vorpal> a stable bogosort, I wonder how it could be accomplished
10:00:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Bogosort?
10:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Like bogomips?
10:02:58 <zzo38> I think bogosort is when you mix it at random and then check to see if it is sorted or not.
10:04:20 <zzo38> I have read about a quantom bogosort, in which after checking to see if it is sorted or not, and if it is not sorted then you have to destroy the entire universe. If it is correct then you do not destroy the universe.
10:05:04 <zzo38> (I suppose one way of destroying the universe might be to cause a paradox?)
10:05:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, one of DMM's searches?
10:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Er, algorithms.
10:06:50 <zzo38> Maybe, I don't know
10:22:41 <Vorpal> I think that dell laptop has this CPU. (though I'm not 100% certain): http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=27593
10:25:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think DMM made it
10:25:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is just one of those well known "joke" algorithms. IIRC it dates back to the 1980s or earlier
10:25:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh. It seemed like one of his...
10:27:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, he did bogobogosort.
10:28:18 <Vorpal> how does that one work?
10:32:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It's recursive bogosort.
10:34:07 <Vorpal> in what way is it recursive?
10:35:07 <Vorpal> *meh* googles
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10:52:00 <zzo38> O, go drink hydroxic acid.
10:59:38 <zzo38> Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to the garage makes you a car.
11:10:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do you say this for no apparent reason?
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11:24:44 <zzo38> Is this somewhat like how John Stump writes music? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/circuit_diagram.png (Except, that it isn't music, in this case.)
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11:58:11 <nooga> zangband zangband yeah'
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13:25:45 <nooga> zangband
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13:53:06 <olsner> haha, wine doesn't work on NTFS, becuase "NTFS does not provide all the file system features needed by some applications"
13:55:30 <Vorpal> olsner, wait a second... "on ntfs"? Are you running wine on windows?
13:57:41 <olsner> of course, they're probably talking about linux' ntfs support not providing all the features
14:02:38 <Vorpal> olsner, ah that makes a lot more sense
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15:19:06 <alise> hi
15:20:06 <alise> 21:18:30 <Gregor> I have Windows NT MIPS running :)
15:20:09 <alise> but only 3, ha ha
15:20:14 <alise> pikhq: I blame you severely.
15:23:19 <alise> 21:49:17 <Sgeo> pikhq, but I'm used to alise avoiding all mention of such jokes, is all
15:23:26 <alise> Alive moms get no such preferential treatment :P
15:24:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:24:51 <alise> 22:04:34 <quintopia> sgeo: also, it's unicode
15:24:51 <alise> 22:04:39 <quintopia> so you shouldn't use it
15:24:57 <alise> this channel has no such law
15:25:55 <alise> 22:11:15 <quintopia> the convention is so that people on mobile clients and such that don't support unicode aren't constantly bitching about funky gibberish in their screen
15:25:58 <alise> don't use such clients
15:26:01 <alise> hi ais523
15:26:28 <ais523> hi
15:26:38 <alise> 22:14:07 <Gregor> Shockingly, Visual C++ 2.0 MIPS doesn't have getopt.
15:26:40 <alise> How do you have it?!
15:26:58 <alise> ais523: (context: me and Gregor have been trying to get Windows NT working on a non-x86 architecture)
15:27:16 <alise> NT 4, specifically, but Gregor's cheated and done 3.5 because that's easy
15:27:21 <ais523> alise: is it an arch it was actually ported to?
15:27:28 <alise> ais523: err, yes
15:27:29 <ais523> or are you trying to port Windows without (or with?) access to its source?
15:27:35 <alise> x86, Alpha, MIPS, PPC
15:27:50 <alise> are the archs NT 4 runs on
15:28:02 <alise> with MIPS, we've got all the bios and stuff setup so it does the part of the install before the first reboot
15:28:12 <alise> then gets into graphical mode, says it's initialising, then it freezes including the mouse forever
15:28:32 <ais523> <spam> A Computer Database Maintainance is currently going on our Webmail Message Center. Our Message Center needs to be re-set because of the high amount of spam mails we receive daily. A Quarantine Maintainance will help us prevent this everyday dilemma.
15:28:32 <alise> with PPC, the bioses are being stoopid and we can't get it to boot
15:28:40 <alise> with Alpha, we have no idea what the hell can simulate a full Alpha machine properly
15:28:47 <ais523> it fails completely because I'm not actually accessing the account via webmail
15:28:55 <ais523> also, it was sent three times
15:28:56 <alise> the Alpha one translates x86 Windows executables to Alpha JIT, though, which is awesome
15:29:00 <alise> and then *stores the translation* so there's no further overhead
15:29:08 <ais523> I noticed it mostly because the title was "HTML *******"
15:29:22 <alise> ais523: heh
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15:29:48 <ais523> oh, I actually got two more copies it seems, with the title "SPAM: Important: Email Account Verification Update? ! ! !"
15:29:54 <ais523> the SPAM: at the start is added by the university spamfilter
15:29:59 <ais523> which often hits false positives, but not this time
15:30:05 <alise> hmm, were you there when I created a monster hybrid of Windows 2000 and NT 4?
15:30:18 <ais523> I don't think so
15:30:36 <ais523> in other news, another spammer was talking about recalls for hip replacements
15:30:46 <ais523> a recall for one of those would probably make the news...
15:31:00 <alise> ais523: To make IE completely removable, I - like someone had done for XP - swapped in the NT 4 explorer.exe for 2k's.
15:31:19 <alise> Thus producing an ever-so-slightly broken but surprisingly-well-working 95-era interface on Win2k.
15:31:30 <ais523> heh
15:31:34 <alise> (One of the bugs is that the default action on folders was Find, not Open. :))
15:31:46 <alise> *was/is; pick one to keep it consistent
15:33:07 <olsner> maybe some registry hacking could get that default action fixed?
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15:33:57 <alise> olsner: almost certainly
15:34:10 <alise> but it also crashes an awful lot for no particular reason -- for instance every time you click a link in IE, and many other things besides
15:34:15 <alise> of course you'd remove IE, but...
15:41:21 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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15:49:56 * alise is doing SCIENCE
15:50:42 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:54:31 <alise> SCIENCE complete, results disappointing
15:57:18 <Slereah> Good.
15:58:10 <alise> specifically, I am completing online surveys for an entirely imaginary person who wishes to be contacted about nothing, and referring versions of myself with different email addresses, in order to get the Spotify Premium code at the end, just to see if it actually ever happens
15:58:23 <alise> right now i'm trying to figure out where i put the variation on my address to refer myself
16:00:56 <alise> lol, i think that one tries to iframe a survey so it can tell when it's done
16:00:59 <alise> but it breaks out of the iframe
16:06:39 <alise> "Remember that each of your referrals must complete 1 credit worth of offers to be classed as a complete referral."
16:06:45 <alise> Why didn't I guess that?
16:07:12 -!- nooga has joined.
16:14:13 <alise> now i'm getting excellent quotes on comparethemarket.com for my 1970H BMW 1600, 1573CC Petrol, 2DR, Manual
16:17:51 <alise> i give up; it won't confirm my vehicle
16:22:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:24:05 <oerjan> <zzo38> (I suppose one way of destroying the universe might be to cause a paradox?)
16:24:21 <oerjan> i think that's the rather hypothetical part... :D
16:24:56 <oerjan> it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily.
16:27:04 <oerjan> what you can do is to make different ways of reaching the same outcome interfer with each other, destroying all of them. but it's not clear that you can always find some way to interfer away a particular outcome, afaik
16:29:04 <ais523> `addquote <oerjan> it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily.
16:29:14 <oerjan> (if you _could_, you'd probably have a way of solving NP-complete problems with quantum computing. scott aronson's blog Shtetl Optimized as as its subtitle "Quantum computers are not known to be able
16:29:17 <HackEgo> 227|<oerjan> it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily.
16:29:18 <oerjan> to solve NP-complete problems in polynomial time."
16:29:34 <ais523> oerjan: the same way quantum bogosort works?
16:29:36 <oerjan> )
16:29:51 <oerjan> ais523: that was the discussion zzo38 was responding to...
16:30:01 <ais523> also, I suspect that if it were possible to arbitrarily destroy the universe, unless it was incredibly difficult someone would have done so by now
16:30:12 <oerjan> i.e. it's not obvious you _can_ do quantum bogosort
16:30:28 <ais523> in fact, the anthropic principle rather implies that we live in a universe that's hard to destroy arbitrarily
16:31:02 <oerjan> ais523: um in this case the idea is that you would notice if someone destroyed the universe, since you would by many-worlds interpretation be in one of the universes that hadn't been destroyed
16:31:10 <oerjan> *would _not_ notice
16:31:36 <ais523> hmm, and there are always worlds in which the universe is not destroyed?
16:31:51 <ais523> I suppose you have to draw a distinction between destroying the universe, and the multiverse
16:32:21 <ais523> between a class X-4 and a class X-5 on the TVTropes scale of apocalypse severities
16:32:40 <oerjan> ais523: yes, that in fact _does_ follow from quantum mechanics since the unitary evolution always preserves the length (i.e. square root of total probability) of the state vector
16:33:25 <ais523> meh, if you can destroy an entire multiverse, destroying maths and logic seems fairly easy by comparison
16:33:42 <alise> <ais523> also, I suspect that if it were possible to arbitrarily destroy the universe, unless it was incredibly difficult someone would have done so by now
16:33:44 <alise> not in the quantum sense
16:34:12 <alise> (this links in to the rather kooky idea of quantum immortality)
16:34:23 <Gregor> alise: Secretly ... oh so secretly ... the page you linked to with instructions on how to install NT4 MIPS in QEmu also has sufficient information to find where the author has squirreled away a downloadable copy of VC++ for MIPS :)
16:34:32 <oerjan> ais523: well all this stuff only becomes mildly realistic because you _can_ in some sense interpret interference of quantum waves as destroying the universes in which the wave sums are zero
16:34:34 <ais523> Gregor: haha
16:34:47 <alise> Gregor: in the ported software section?
16:34:55 <Gregor> alise: Nope.
16:35:10 <Gregor> alise: Well actually yeah, there too.
16:35:12 <alise> Gregor: i freakin' found the page, netcatted you an iso and got a good part of NT installed, just tell me :P
16:35:16 <Gregor> alise: But that's not where I found the information :P
16:35:19 <Gregor> Pff
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16:35:23 <Gregor> One sec, need to refind the link :P
16:35:37 <alise> <alise> Gregor: i freakin' found the page, netcatted you an iso an
16:35:38 <alise> right
16:35:43 <alise> Tuesday, August 11, 2009 1:21 PM 65012747 WindowsNT4.0-MIPS.iso.gz
16:35:46 <alise> woot, that one might actually work
16:35:52 <oerjan> *aaronson
16:35:53 <Gregor> Oh, you found it.
16:35:56 <Gregor> alise: No, tried that.
16:36:02 <alise> what doesn't work about it?
16:36:04 <Gregor> alise: Same issue.
16:36:25 <alise> http://vpsland.superglobalmegacorp.com/install/WindowsNT4.0-MIPS/GNUstuff/
16:36:44 <alise> http://vpsland.superglobalmegacorp.com/install/WindowsNT4.0-MIPS/irc/ OMG IRC
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16:38:02 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
16:38:23 <alise> Gregor: so is the iso exactly the same, more or less?
16:38:28 <alise> despite being presumably workstation?
16:38:39 <alise> Saturday, August 08, 2009 4:41 PM 234936 wimamp25.zip
16:38:40 <alise> :DDDDDDDDD
16:38:45 <alise> "wim"amp?
16:38:54 <oerjan> heh, "The TCS Stack Exchange. Exponentially better than emailing Scott Aaronson."
16:39:00 <Gregor> alise: No, it's MIPS-only, but it's behaviorally close enough.
16:39:06 <oerjan> something tells me the guy feels a bit inundated :D
16:39:14 <alise> Gregor: So they just deleted the non-MIPS directories, then?
16:39:32 <Gregor> alise: Either that or it actually was a MIPS-only CD in the first place.
16:40:30 <Gregor> alise: I suspect the latter because it actually has a label that looks like a MS kind of label, and nobody bothers to label when they just make ISO images.
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16:42:14 <alise> Gregor: Ooh, I wonder if qemu 0.10 will work with MIPS? Although apparently old versions of QEMU get the colours wrong, and it was only a recent effort, so probably not, but I have it compiled anyway, so...
16:42:19 <alise> Any progress with PPC?
16:42:53 <alise> It boots the bios, at least. (qemu 0.10/mips)
16:43:26 <Gregor> alise: None, got too excited about MIPS :P
16:43:42 <alise> It also reboots.
16:44:07 <alise> And loads the setup.
16:44:11 <alise> rc4030 ERROR: rc4030_writel: Cache maintenance not handled yet (val 0x1b)
16:44:21 <alise> Not sure the setup will start :P
16:44:26 <alise> Seems not.
16:44:39 <alise> Gregor: You do realise that whatever succeeds must be physically replicated?
16:45:10 <Gregor> alise: Except that it's substantially easier to physically install NT4 and say "screw QEmu" :P
16:45:20 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to the garage makes you a car.
16:45:38 * oerjan has no idea what made zzo38 say that, but found it amusing
16:45:39 <alise> Gregor: You forgot the "build, by hand, a motherfucking MIPS workstation".
16:46:05 <Gregor> alise: Except you can probably more easily buy, by hand, a complete motherfucking MIPS workstation.
16:46:09 <HackEgo> 228|<zzo38> Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than going to the garage makes you a car.
16:47:05 <alise> Gregor: That's motherfucking cheating. Like buying a Dell computer when the goal is being fucking awesome.
16:47:12 <alise> BUILD the MIPS workstation.
16:48:17 <oerjan> mildly interesting programming system
16:54:03 <oerjan> <alise> this channel has no such law <-- frequent logreaders instead wish for a ban of iso-8859-1
16:54:45 <alise> actually, my browser interprets utf-8 as iso-8859-1 by default, as do i think many others
16:54:48 <alise> which is highly irritating
16:54:51 <alise> i guess that's what you mean
16:54:58 <alise> stupid server not sending the content-type header
16:55:00 <oerjan> especially this morning when the logs had a discussion in which different participants used iso-8859-1 and utf-8
16:55:10 <oerjan> alise: no!
16:55:21 <oerjan> i mean actual usage.
16:56:12 <oerjan> most of the time my browser detects that the logs are utf-8 automatically, but not always
16:56:37 <oerjan> and when someone actually has used iso-8859-1 it of course breaks completely
16:57:23 <oerjan> while irssi guesses encoding on at least line-by-line basis, IE seems to have no such fine-grained option
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16:57:40 <alise> G-MIPSYEAH: is that from mips?
16:57:52 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has quit (Client Quit).
16:57:59 <Gregor> Until I do that
16:58:48 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has joined.
16:58:58 <G-MIPSYEAH> This IRC client sucks so much.
16:59:12 <G-MIPSYEAH> It's convinced I'm not actually in this channel.
16:59:21 <alise> screenshot or gtfo
17:00:02 * oerjan memes about stacktrace
17:01:09 <G-MIPSYEAH> alise: It didn't even give me that message from you.
17:01:14 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has quit (Client Quit).
17:01:38 <alise> SCREENSHOT OR FTGO
17:01:57 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow).
17:02:05 <Gregor> Don't effing care or GTFO :P
17:03:52 <oerjan> Gregor: hey i'm good at that! sometimes.
17:05:21 * Sgeo cries
17:05:29 -!- G-MIPSYEAH has joined.
17:05:51 <G-MIPSYEAH> Wooo
17:05:57 <G-MIPSYEAH> Better worse IRC client :P
17:06:01 <G-MIPSYEAH> At least it knows I'm in this channel.
17:07:36 <Sgeo> I care
17:07:40 <oerjan> Gregor: well if i cared i'd have to GTFO, you told me so
17:07:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: oh we'll have to ban you then
17:07:56 <G-MIPSYEAH> oerjan: ... touche sir :P
17:08:00 <Sgeo> I assume that this is genuine MIPS, as JSMIPS would have no Internet connectivity
17:08:15 <Sgeo> Get NT to work on JSMIPS =P
17:08:16 <G-MIPSYEAH> Sgeo: It's QeEmu MIPS, running Windows NT.
17:08:20 <G-MIPSYEAH> Yeahno
17:08:23 <G-MIPSYEAH> Although that would RULE.
17:09:51 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
17:10:54 <Sgeo> Hooray, Firefox just loves crashing!
17:11:39 <G-MIPSYEAH> http://codu.org/tmp/ircyeah.png
17:11:53 <G-MIPSYEAH> Screenshot
17:11:56 <G-MIPSYEAH> It DID happen.
17:15:30 <alise> NT 4 on JSMIPS
17:15:35 <alise> running cygwin
17:15:37 <alise> running X11
17:15:41 <alise> clearly the best way to do graphics in JSMIPS
17:15:50 <G-MIPSYEAH> Sounds about right to me.
17:15:55 <alise> G-MIPSYEAH: was the other one graphical?
17:16:25 <G-MIPSYEAH> Sort of.
17:16:26 <G-MIPSYEAH> Not very.'
17:16:31 <G-MIPSYEAH> But it doesn't fucking work :P
17:18:42 <G-MIPSYEAH> /quit
17:18:42 <Sgeo> Wait
17:18:44 <G-MIPSYEAH> ...
17:18:47 <G-MIPSYEAH> Greaaat.
17:18:50 <G-MIPSYEAH> How the hell do I quit?
17:18:58 <Sgeo> Oh, the screenshot wasn't of JSMIPS
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17:21:34 <alise> Sgeo: Duh :P
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17:21:42 <alise> Gregor: I have a porpoiseal.
17:22:06 <Sgeo> I can barely have 5 tabs open in Fx when OpenOffice.org Writer is open
17:22:45 <oerjan> alise: your mad biology experiments will be your downfall, i tell ya
17:23:01 <alise> Sgeo: AbiWord
17:23:28 <Sgeo> I have no idea if I have enough disk space for that
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17:24:01 * Sgeo tries
17:24:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Do, or do not. There is no try.
17:24:45 <Sgeo> If I get a bigger USB stick, could I set it up such that some of it is swap space?
17:25:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably.
17:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd need to do some hairy things, though.
17:29:33 <Gregor> But they would appreciate it.
17:33:18 <Sgeo> If girls with hair on the top of their heads count...
17:33:31 <Gregor> Not hairy enough.
17:40:25 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> If I get a bigger USB stick, could I set it up such that some of it is swap space? <-- um that's silly
17:40:41 <Vorpal> Sgeo, swap on flash is a bad idea generally
17:40:52 <Vorpal> due to write cycles being rather limited
17:41:16 <Vorpal> SSDs are generally rated for much higher write cycle count, so less of a worry there
17:56:17 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/ay98m.png Straight, gay, lesbian, hispanic, bisexual or unsure?
17:56:56 <alise> <Sgeo> If I get a bigger USB stick, could I set it up such that some of it is swap space?
17:56:56 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Probably.
17:56:56 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> You'd need to do some hairy things, though.
17:56:56 <alise> <Sgeo> If girls with hair on the top of their heads count...
17:56:58 <alise> stop doing that shit, it's not funny
17:58:33 <Sgeo> alise, did you miss what Gregor said?
17:59:06 <oerjan> girls _without_ hair on the top of their heads probably count, in a paradoxical way
18:00:30 <alise> Sgeo: that's got very little to do with the fact that half of the things you say serve no other purpose other than a de facto nick change to HormonesDeliveredThroughAnIRCSocket :P
18:02:43 <oerjan> and you wouldn't want to deliver your hormones that way, since it would be cut off
18:14:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's the first time I've seen Sgeo say anything that would corroborate that statement.
18:15:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well ok it's more like >1/3 of his jokes.
18:16:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I haven't noticed that either...
18:16:38 <alise> i'm not about to go log trawling
18:17:16 <Gregor> I don't understand people who have persistence of memory for other people.
18:17:34 <alise> i'm really good at it :P
18:17:46 <alise> i could easily tell who says what in this channel without names
18:17:58 <Gregor> Oh it's on.
18:18:00 <Gregor> It is SO on.
18:18:06 <Gregor> Hack an IRC client to hide names and DO IT.
18:18:38 <alise> Gregor: i already proposed a game that takes a random recent snippet of logs and asks you to fill in the names
18:18:44 <alise> recent as in
18:18:46 <alise> from the past few years
18:18:52 <alise> not from like 2005 when god knows who everyone was :P
18:19:10 <Sgeo> alise, make it!
18:19:15 <Sgeo> Don't just talk about it!
18:19:24 <alise> i told fizzie to make it
18:19:27 <Gregor> The problem is everybody else would suck at it :P
18:20:08 <Gregor> I still want to make botornot
18:21:41 <oerjan> to bot, or not to bot
18:22:45 <Sgeo> Crud, I have such a terrible memory for people :(
18:23:00 <Sgeo> I just got back in touch with a childhood friend who I haven't spoken to since 2004
18:23:02 <Sgeo> or so
18:23:14 <Sgeo> He remembers a lot about me
18:23:18 <Sgeo> I remember almost nothing about him
18:23:27 <Gregor> oerjan: Concept behind botornot: Reverse Turing test. Two players are brought together, one is a questioner, the other is an answerer. Also brought in is a randomly-selected bot. Both answer questions, and the answerer tries to convince the questioner (judge) that he's the bot. The questioner then guesses which is the bot. If you're a human and you get guessed as bot, you win points.
18:24:12 <Sgeo> I think I could pretend to be ELIZA-like
18:24:31 <Sgeo> Maybe
18:24:41 <Gregor> But if you were paired with a better bot, they would still think IT was the bot, 'cuz ELIZA is too easy.
18:24:49 <oerjan> Sgeo: Why do you think you could pretend to be ELIZA-like?
18:25:04 <zzo38> It seems all three sides could easily cheat
18:25:16 <Gregor> zzo38: The bot can't cheat.
18:25:20 <ais523> Gregor: there's a famous dialog somewhere where Douglas Hofstadter was asked to assess a "new chatterbot"
18:25:22 <Gregor> zzo38: The questioner certainly can't cheat.
18:25:32 <ais523> when he was actually being connected to a group of students pretending to be a bot
18:25:38 <Gregor> zzo38: The only other issue is timing, and that can be smoothed out.
18:25:43 <Gregor> ais523: lawl; what about timing?
18:25:48 <zzo38> Gregor: I don't believe you. They can all cheat.
18:25:57 <ais523> he was told the connection was to a mainframe at the other end of the campus
18:26:03 <Gregor> zzo38: What does it even mean for the judge to cheat?
18:26:07 <ais523> and bandwidth was so limited those days that the high latency was plausible
18:26:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, http://pastebin.com/VvdSYukk
18:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Like that?
18:27:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sure. perhaps even without the numbers
18:27:29 <alise> what rough time is that from?
18:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> June.
18:27:37 <alise> also, you forgot to censor lifthrasiir; is he a number?
18:27:42 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
18:27:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I used search-and-replace to get rid of the names.
18:28:08 <zzo38> Gregor: I suppose one way is doing things other than simply sending normal messages. Such as looking elsewhere. Or other protocol commands.
18:28:09 -!- olsner has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:28:31 <Gregor> zzo38: That's just silly. Why are we building such a criminally broken system around this? I never claimed it was IRC.
18:29:07 <Gregor> zzo38: And sending random text or whatnot is fine.
18:29:12 <zzo38> Gregor: I know that. But if it is IRC there is obviously those way. If it isn't IRC, there might be other ways.
18:29:21 <alise> ais523: what did he conclude?
18:29:26 <zzo38> And there are ways that are not even part of the protocol, possibly.
18:29:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: got all but #1, very small sample size there
18:29:28 <alise> thinking about it
18:29:45 <ais523> alise: first they convinced him it was a rather inept bot, and he believed it
18:29:53 <Gregor> zzo38: Everything you're mentioning is /within the realm of what the judge is allowed to do/, you just need to respond in the right bot way.
18:29:55 <ais523> and then they used the fact he thought it was a bot to try to weird him out
18:30:04 <alise> ais523: did it work?
18:30:09 <ais523> eventually he side-channeled it, on the basis that everyone was too busy laughing
18:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it was a first run.
18:30:16 <ais523> but it worked for a while
18:30:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ?
18:30:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I couldn't be bothered doing it for lots of names.
18:30:31 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:31:00 <Gregor> zzo38: And really, your only argument thusfar is "if you fuck it up really bad, the judge can cheat". So don't fuck it up so bad :P
18:31:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover:
18:31:28 <alise> #1 = I don't know; uses standard orthography, may be quoting some incorrect source or simply having typoed meaning no strong aversion to uppercase/exclamations for probably-comedic effect. "Well, pressable, apparently." seems to suggest someone, but I don't know who.
18:31:28 <alise> #2 = uorygl (if not, then maybe Phantom_Hoover? probably not)
18:31:28 <alise> #3 = oklopol
18:31:28 <alise> #4 = Gregor
18:31:30 * oerjan _thinks_ #3 may be oklopol
18:31:35 <zzo38> Gregor: Ah, OK. (I suppose if it is IRC, it is possible to write te client to do certain things with CTRL+A VERSION and so on, is that cheating?) But it doesn't have to be IRC, it can be a simple protocol
18:31:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: These are my guesses.
18:31:49 <Gregor> zzo38: It can be a web page where you enter text.
18:31:51 <Gregor> And that's it.
18:31:52 <oerjan> (i _had_ typed that, just needed to press enter)
18:31:54 <alise> oh, #2 also use comma pings
18:31:54 <Gregor> That's the whole interface.
18:31:56 <alise> so it can't be Phantom_Hoover
18:31:59 <alise> no wait
18:32:01 <alise> it can be
18:32:05 <alise> he uses comma-highlights
18:32:05 <zzo38> Gregor: That doesn't count as a simple protocol like I said
18:32:15 <alise> ok, I know believe it's more balanced between uorgyl and phanty
18:32:19 <alise> but i'll still go for uorygl
18:32:21 <Sgeo> alise, you remember details like that?
18:32:22 <alise> no, wait, no
18:32:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover
18:32:27 <Gregor> zzo38: There's no value in making this have a "simple protocol", and I never claimed it would.
18:32:29 <alise> it's Phantom_Hoover
18:32:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: rank my guesses?
18:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> #4 is wrong, but #3 and #2 are correct.
18:33:27 <Gregor> Muahahahaha
18:33:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: so it was you?
18:33:50 <zzo38> A simple protocol would be where two clients tonnect to the judge's server... The judge's screen displays messages with their IP address and broadcasts messages typed to the clients. To make it a bit harder to cheat, both clients can connect through Tor nodes
18:33:51 <alise> ok.
18:34:03 <alise> hmm #4...
18:34:10 <Gregor> zzo38: That makes timing a nightmare.
18:34:22 <alise> 14:24:17 <#4> They'd be all "sorry, we're out of numbers right now, but we'll be getting more next Tuesday from our number mines".
18:34:22 <alise> 14:24:45 <#4> Everything comes from mines.
18:34:22 <alise> 14:25:27 <#4> Yes, they refine primes from large composites extracted from the earth.
18:34:32 <alise> fizzie
18:34:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fizzie
18:34:34 <Gregor> zzo38: The bot can always respond instantly, but the user will take time, messages need to be buffered for some predetermined amount of time (30 seconds?) to get rid of the timing channel.
18:34:43 <alise> 30 seconds is too much
18:34:46 <alise> make it 10
18:34:54 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, correct
18:34:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: :)
18:35:00 <Gregor> alise: Give the user time to think :P
18:35:00 <alise> who's #1?
18:35:06 <alise> Gregor: 15 to 20, then
18:35:09 <alise> Gregor: 30 is just boring
18:35:14 <alise> Gregor: also, if the user enters faster
18:35:17 <alise> have it send both
18:35:31 <Gregor> alise: But then the length of the bot's submission could make it obvious.
18:35:43 <alise> Gregor: i didn't actually read the idea :)
18:35:44 <Gregor> alise: If you say "yes" and the bot spits out Moby Dick, and it sends in 3 seconds, GEEE
18:35:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So yeah, I am pretty good at it.
18:35:55 <zzo38> You are right about that
18:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> #1 was cpressey.
18:36:06 <alise> Gregor: so make it not spit out moby dick :P
18:36:19 <Gregor> alise: Remember, the bot writer wants the judge to think their bot IS a bot.
18:36:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ah, i wouldn't have got that
18:36:27 <Gregor> alise: And that would make it clear that their bot is a botr.
18:36:28 <Gregor> *bot
18:36:30 <alise> was the CERTIAN thing a quote
18:36:31 <alise> ?
18:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
18:36:41 <alise> Gregor: so the human has to pretend to be a bot?
18:36:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: okay. what's the day, fwiw?
18:36:46 <zzo38> Would the Moby Dick be too large file?
18:36:52 <Gregor> alise: That's the whole idea.
18:36:57 <Gregor> zzo38: Probably :P
18:37:11 <alise> Gregor: well that's easy
18:37:14 <alise> just say whatever eliza would say
18:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, 30/6/10
18:37:29 <zzo38> (Even if it is HTTP, the server can easily reject a file that is too large)
18:37:34 <Gregor> alise: But ELIZA is too easy, if the bot is slightly more cleverer, they'll figure the human is being an idiot and the bot is really the bot.
18:37:38 <Gregor> alise: The judge isn't a retard.
18:37:53 <alise> erm
18:37:56 <alise> i'd always mark eliza as a bot :P
18:38:03 <alise> or are we trying to make the bots more realistic?
18:38:07 <alise> which would make them less humanlike
18:38:08 <alise> erm
18:38:10 <alise> more humanlike
18:38:12 <alise> defeating the point
18:38:14 <Gregor> alise: Doesn't matter.
18:38:17 <alise> wat.
18:38:26 <Gregor> alise: The bots are whatever bots seem OK, that's like, the whole trick to the thing.
18:38:29 <Sgeo> I remember seeing an ELIZA thing on TV
18:38:35 <Sgeo> Which interested me in Pandorabots somehow
18:38:38 <alise> Gregor: then why not eliza
18:38:44 <Sgeo> And I don't know if that actually lead anywhere
18:39:15 <zzo38> I have run the ELIZA program manually using dice, before.
18:39:22 <Gregor> alise: The bot COULD be eliza, but if the majority of the bots in the botbank AREN'T eliza, then just going with the one that seems like eliza is a bad guess.
18:39:42 <alise> Gregor: Well, get coding.
18:39:57 <alise> Gregor: Or I guess I could :P
18:39:59 <nooga> The Mangy looking leper begs you for money.
18:40:57 <nooga> The Novice ranger tries to cast a spell, but fails.
18:41:22 <Gregor> alise: In fact, it would even be OK to have an interface that just lets you chat with some bot, to try to get an idea of what the bots in the botbank are like.
18:41:35 <alise> Gregor: makes it too easy and less hilarious
18:41:57 <Gregor> alise: How does it make it too easy? The judge and the answerer can both chat with the bot.
18:42:15 <alise> because you could just intricately study every bot
18:42:24 <alise> and typos would let you win
18:42:28 <nooga> You feel yourself yanked downwards!
18:42:30 <alise> typos of humans
18:42:31 <alise> imitating bots
18:42:55 <Gregor> alise: You think you can imitate a bot that well, with any amount of studying at it, but with the input being unpredictable? I think you're being extremely optimistic.
18:43:16 -!- delayed_optbot has joined.
18:43:24 <alise> It's not that hard, is it, delayed_optbot?
18:43:32 <delayed_optbot> alise: I don't see how that architecture could ever work :-P
18:43:39 <alise> Why not, delayed_optbot?
18:43:45 <delayed_optbot> delayed_optbot: or if you didn't
18:43:49 <alise> whops
18:43:51 <alise> *whoops
18:43:52 <alise> there goes my jig
18:43:54 -!- delayed_optbot has quit (Client Quit).
18:44:07 <Gregor> It went up.
18:44:08 <alise> i am the worst bot ever
18:44:08 <Gregor> It's still rising.
18:44:55 <alise> Gregor: SO NT 4
18:45:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, get delayed_optbot on.
18:45:24 <Sgeo> ON JSMIPS
18:45:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: For what?
18:45:31 <alise> Gregor: http://github.com/tycho/openhackware
18:45:35 <alise> Gregor: Maybe the latest version will work better.
18:45:49 <Gregor> alise: Latest version is the version Debian has.
18:45:57 <alise> Latest *git commit*? Okaay.
18:46:17 <alise> Gregor: I bet we can get OpenHackware working with latest qemu.
18:46:41 <Phantom_Hoover> @pl \f x -> f $ f $ f x
18:46:41 <lambdabot> ap (.) (join (.))
18:46:49 <Phantom_Hoover> @type ap
18:46:50 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
18:46:58 <alise> With the right -M.
18:48:19 <alise> Gregor: hmm, does it have any compilation options?
18:48:21 <alise> like for certain machines
18:48:36 <Gregor> The only machine it supports is QEmu.
18:48:37 <Sgeo> I like being able to type in Unicode⚠
18:48:55 <alise> Gregor: but it says machine meulation
18:48:56 <alise> *emulation
18:48:58 <alise> [[OpenHackWare is an OpenFirmware emulator intended to be used on PowerPC machines. It is not a real OpenFirmware as it knows nothing about Forth. It emulates the OpenFirmware boot time interface as well as the RTAS interface. It also emulates some known "interpret" strings, to make it able to launch known OSes.]]
18:48:59 <alise> hmm
18:49:02 <alise> so it does openfirmware too, why
18:49:11 <Sgeo>
18:49:16 <Sgeo> 
18:49:20 -!- distant_figure has joined.
18:49:20 <Sgeo> What did I just type?
18:49:27 <Gregor> Sgeo: Nonsense.
18:49:28 <Sgeo> FEF
18:49:30 <Sgeo> FEFF
18:49:33 <alise> Gregor: http://www.openfirmware.info/SmartFirmware
18:49:33 <Sgeo> What's FEFF?
18:49:38 <alise> Gregor: An alternate Open Firmware implementation.
18:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, does anyone remember that relativistic CA we tried to make a while ago?
18:49:49 <Sgeo> Isn't OpenFirmware use Forth?
18:50:07 <Sgeo>
18:50:08 <Sgeo> BEEF
18:50:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
18:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It appears that someone managed to get SR working in a CA.
18:50:15 <alise> lol wat
18:50:27 <Sgeo> U+BEEF = 뻯
18:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone called Mark Smith, apparently.
18:51:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: link
18:51:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/wolfram/ mentions it tangentially.
18:52:12 <alise> mark smith is the 110 prover
18:52:18 <alise> no wait
18:52:21 <alise> that was matthew cook
18:52:50 <alise> 1994 mit dissertions with cellular automat(a|on) in the title
18:52:51 <alise> go search
18:53:08 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CBwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10. seems to be it.
18:54:13 <Gregor> alise: Doesn't support PPC
18:54:27 <alise> Gregor: FML
18:54:33 <alise> Gregor: Okay, so, MIPS!
18:54:37 <alise> Why does it freeze
18:54:43 * Sgeo misread that as power
18:54:46 <Gregor> I don't care, 3.51 rules
18:54:59 <alise> Gregor: You're crazy.
18:55:09 <alise> Gregor: Also, ahem.
18:55:11 <alise> The challenge NEVER ENDS.
18:55:21 <Sgeo> testtest
18:55:25 <Gregor> Dude, 3.51 is win32 with a win16-like interface!
18:55:26 <Gregor> IT IS AWESOME
18:55:39 <alise> Win16-like interface = horrible :P
18:55:44 <Sgeo> sadf
18:55:48 <alise> Gregor: Anyway, the challenge DOES NOT END. We made an agreement. CONTINUE
18:56:12 <Gregor> I'm done, I got Windows NT running on MIPS.
18:56:59 <alise> Gregor: We said NT 4.
18:57:20 <Gregor> I DON'T CARE
18:57:31 <Sgeo> «»
18:57:45 <Sgeo> Gregor, JSMIPS JSMIPS JSMIPS
18:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> §4 of that dissertation has the Lorenz-invariant CA stuff, it appears.
18:58:02 <alise> Gregor: You violated a secret oath.
18:58:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: § is section, not page, you know
18:58:14 <Sgeo> §
18:58:14 <alise> *know.
18:58:17 <alise> Oh, you meant section.
18:58:17 <Sgeo> §
18:58:22 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's precisely what I meant!
18:58:28 <Sgeo> § is a simoleon
19:00:12 <Sgeo> Um
19:00:18 <Sgeo>
19:00:37 <Sgeo>
19:00:54 <Sgeo> What good is the symbols for control characters if the damn symbols don't show up?
19:00:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, we get it. You can dump Unicode into the channel.
19:01:25 <Phantom_Hoover> And the symbols for control characters don't show up because THEY'RE CONTROL CHARACTERS.
19:01:38 <Phantom_Hoover> THEY SHOULDN'T BE PRINTED.
19:01:47 <Sgeo> No, those are supposed to be the symbols that represent them when you want to print something
19:01:49 <Sgeo> I think
19:02:13 <Sgeo> NUL on a diagonal
19:02:13 <Sgeo> etc
19:02:24 <Sgeo>
19:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Again, control characters should never be represented graphically.
19:03:19 <Sgeo>
19:04:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they can be in e.g. editors that edit binary files
19:05:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes, that's what the fancy representations are for.
19:05:28 <Sgeo> And those fancy representations are what I was trying to print
19:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover> But Sgeo seems to expect them to be printed if there's a null in the channel.
19:05:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Or somesuch.
19:05:44 <alise> hmm
19:05:45 <Sgeo> No, I didn't
19:05:51 <alise> lightspeed doesn't require infinite energy in CAs
19:05:55 <alise> e.g. th elightspeed telegraph
19:06:01 <nooga> ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
19:06:04 <nooga> my
19:06:22 <oerjan> alise: not in the real world either, as long as you use luxons
19:06:28 <nooga> longest living zangband character just died ad fucking dlvl 11 by disease
19:06:34 <Sgeo> http://decodeunicode.org/en/control_pictures
19:06:41 <Sgeo> "EDIT This Unicode block is a collection of visible glyphs for control characters."
19:06:42 <nooga> i played with this goddamn char whole summer
19:06:45 <alise> oerjan: lawl
19:06:49 <nooga> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
19:06:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it's a single relativistic CA.
19:06:53 <alise> oerjan: still, though :P
19:06:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i'm jst saying
19:06:58 <alise> *just
19:07:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And there's not even a sensible formulation of "energy" in Life.
19:07:45 -!- myndzi has joined.
19:08:12 <alise> there must be
19:08:13 <alise> :P
19:08:20 <nooga> i'm in a despair
19:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, not force times distance.
19:08:56 <nooga> why now!
19:08:57 <nooga> ?!
19:08:57 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ v
19:08:58 <alise> Gregor: New challenge.
19:09:01 <alise> HURD on real hardware.
19:09:07 <alise> Preferably: Itanium.
19:09:14 <nooga> turd on real hardware
19:09:16 <oerjan> alise: you need a hamiltonian/lagrangian mechanics for energy to really make sense, afaik
19:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Trying to apply physical things to Life is stupid in the first place.
19:09:20 <nooga> hmm, quite easy
19:09:28 <alise> you're stupid in the first place
19:09:38 <alise> nooga: good luck getting an itanium workstation
19:09:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Your mother is stupid in the first place.
19:10:00 <oerjan> alise: life isn't reversible like microscopic physics, for one thing
19:10:12 <alise> true
19:10:13 <alise> hmm
19:10:18 <alise> what's the most interesting reversible CA?
19:10:49 <oerjan> no idea, although rule 30 is at least locally reversible
19:10:56 <oerjan> iirc
19:11:02 <alise> 2D :P
19:11:23 <oerjan> well i don't _know_ any notable 2d reversible ones
19:11:26 * Phantom_Hoover isn't even sure if there *are* any 2D reversible CAs of interest.
19:11:48 <oerjan> incidentally global reversibility is undecidable for 2d CAs but not for 1d iirc
19:12:18 <oerjan> (that's a big iirc in this case)
19:13:07 <alise> got to be
19:13:10 <alise> even if they're >2 colours
19:15:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm.
19:15:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Is the HPP lattice gas reversible?
19:15:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Excluding sinks.
19:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> And sources.
19:15:33 <Sgeo> Undecidable?
19:15:36 <Sgeo> As in, it can
19:15:56 <Sgeo> can't be algorithmically determined, for any 2d ca, whether or not it's globally reversable
19:15:59 <Sgeo> ?
19:16:09 <oerjan> well that's what i _think_ i am recalling
19:16:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, yes.
19:16:24 <alise> that seems obvious to me :)
19:16:33 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/HPP_small.gif hypnotic
19:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRTWPAIAWC
19:16:34 <Sgeo> What's the difference between global and local reversibility?
19:16:44 <alise> hmm if you have a bunch of arrows
19:16:50 <alise> then obviously to reverse a state, make it move back one
19:16:57 <alise> but if they go in opposite directions when collided
19:17:01 * Phantom_Hoover loves how much of WP's CA stuff is from Golly.
19:17:03 <alise> then whenever you have e.g. <>
19:17:06 <alise> just flip both of them to reverse
19:17:11 <alise> or if they advance one at the same time
19:17:17 <alise> then <.> turns into ><
19:17:22 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so that's the most interesting one I can think of.
19:17:24 <alise> same with colliding wals
19:17:26 <alise> *walls
19:17:31 <alise> so at least the version in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/HPP_small.gif is easy enoughto reverse
19:17:36 <alise> otoh, it isn't terribly interesting
19:17:41 <alise> there are reversible turing machines
19:19:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Langton's ant with a single ant?
19:19:31 <oerjan> Sgeo: well global would mean here that a given configuration of the _whole_ infinite space has only one possible parent
19:19:58 <alise> not langton's ant, surely
19:20:06 <alise> not when it collides
19:20:08 <alise> after spinning off
19:20:12 <alise> dunno, maybe i'm wrong
19:20:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, maybe.
19:20:28 <Sgeo> One consequence: If there's life, it can never die out
19:20:30 <alise> hmm perhaps the best way of designing a reversible CA is figuring out how to go one step backwards, then just doing that in reverse >:)
19:20:31 <Sgeo> That's awesome
19:20:33 <alise> (yes, that *is* a joke)
19:20:38 <alise> Sgeo: untrue
19:20:41 <alise> it can die out as long as it leaves a corpse
19:20:47 <oerjan> while local would mean that if you have most of the parent configuration itself, but are missing a finite portion, you can only fill it in in one way
19:21:00 <oerjan> rule 30 fulfils the latter but not the first iirc
19:21:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I was thinking that if you retraced the ant's steps, that would make it reversible.
19:21:54 <Sgeo> Can something be globally reversable but not locally?
19:22:11 <alise> no
19:22:55 <Sgeo> alise, corpses have to live
19:23:12 <alise> what
19:23:22 <alise> no, it could just stay there forever
19:23:25 <alise> immortal but unmoving
19:23:25 <Sgeo> You can't go from non-still-life to still-life
19:23:59 <alise> not in Life
19:24:06 <alise> well, that's not true
19:24:10 <alise> you can collide with something else in Life
19:24:14 <alise> but who said we're talking about Life?
19:24:16 <alise> Life isn't reversible
19:24:24 * Sgeo was talking about a globally reversable CA
19:24:29 <alise> then
19:24:30 <alise> <Sgeo> You can't go from non-still-life to still-life
19:24:33 <alise> is not necessarily true at all
19:25:55 <oerjan> Sgeo: no because globally reversable means you have a unique parent even if you have _no_ information about it beyond its child configuration. btw i'm probably misremembering terminology something vicious here
19:26:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton#Reversible corresponds to what i call global
19:28:18 <Sgeo> So, what
19:28:34 <Sgeo> what's the unique parent of a stilllife that a non-stillife gave rise to?
19:29:05 <oerjan> alise: in a reversible automaton you cannot get a still-life from a non-still life because a still life is its own parent and can have no non-stillife one
19:29:38 * oerjan marvels at his own inconsistent hyphenation
19:29:45 <alise> oerjan: oh, of course
19:29:58 <alise> well Sgeo it could turn into a very stupid form of life, i guess
19:30:57 <Sgeo> I actually understood something before alise did?
19:31:02 <Sgeo> What is this witchcraftery?
19:32:03 <oerjan> THE END OF THE WORLD IS NIGH
19:33:00 <oerjan> hm another way of saying what i call local reversibility is that two configurations that differ in a finite set of cells cannot have the same child
19:34:02 <Sgeo> But on the other hand, life will never be able to venture into the empty universe
19:34:26 <oerjan> Sgeo: er what?
19:34:59 <Sgeo> Hmm
19:35:04 <Sgeo> Maybe nevermind
19:35:37 <oerjan> for a reversible CA you could have something that shrunk from unbounded size to something small, then expanded back again
19:36:51 <oerjan> otoh if a configuration's ancestors are all finite then they must repeat, and so the descendants are also (the same repeating) finite configurations
19:37:01 <oerjan> um
19:37:07 <oerjan> *within a finite area
19:37:07 <alise> hmm, so basically all life grows eternally :)
19:37:17 <alise> well
19:37:22 <alise> or ungrows and regrows forever
19:37:27 <alise> living your life backwards :P
19:37:29 <alise> hmm
19:37:33 <alise> if it starts living its life backwards
19:37:37 <alise> then nothing can change
19:37:38 <alise> that is
19:37:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, incidentally, you can go from spaceshipoid to still-life in Life.
19:37:42 <alise> nobody can suddenly shoot it while it's regressing
19:37:47 <alise> because that would mean it wouldn't have finite states
19:37:48 <alise> right?
19:37:59 <alise> because the predecessor of point P would be in one timeline whatever should happena
19:38:01 <alise> and in the other
19:38:01 <oerjan> alise: it doesn't have to go backwards the same path, you just need a cycle
19:38:02 <alise> getting shot
19:38:11 <alise> oerjan: hm? but it's global
19:38:32 <oerjan> i mean if it's finite always
19:38:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Spaceship guns would be illegal, too...
19:38:55 <oerjan> also my correction above was because you can obviously have something that's finite but eternally moving
19:39:04 <Sgeo> Could a hypothetical scientist in a CA ever deduce that cells and generations exist?
19:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it depends.
19:39:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought about that a while ago.
19:39:40 <alise> well, he could create an accurate model with them
19:39:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: why not, we in the real world have hypothesized planck time and length
19:39:45 <alise> but i don't think you could verify it
19:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It could have a particle accelerator that fired gliders at each other and checked the debris.
19:40:03 <alise> because you can't "see" a dot moving from one cell to another
19:40:11 <alise> so it looks continuous to you
19:40:12 <oerjan> and a CA world _might_ have an easier time proving it
19:40:18 <alise> because you only exist "in" the generations too
19:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Although life in Life would either be insanely sparse and ultra-redundant, or so fragile it would die before it could do anything.
19:41:21 -!- cheater99 has joined.
19:41:59 <alise> i doubt Life itself can sustain life
19:42:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Which leads to the interesting scenario that they would have a workable equivalent of attotechnology.
19:42:02 <alise> well
19:42:05 <alise> it obviously can sustain life
19:42:08 <alise> e.g. gliders
19:42:11 <alise> of a sort
19:42:13 <alise> hmm
19:42:22 <alise> can you make "life" in Life that has to pick up "food" every now and then?
19:42:24 <alise> or it dies?
19:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it could have a very very sparse universe.
19:42:34 <Sgeo> Life is turing-complete
19:42:39 <Phantom_Hoover> And the main competition in CAs is space.
19:42:44 <alise> and maybe the more food it has, it goes faster?
19:42:45 <Sgeo> If we can simulate a mind in a computer, we could simulate it in Life
19:42:45 <alise> (up to a point)
19:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Check the evoloop patterns in golly.
19:43:06 <alise> 22:14:07 <Gregor> Shockingly, Visual C++ 2.0 MIPS doesn't have getopt.
19:43:09 <alise> compile rawirc
19:43:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, assuming evolution, the first lifeform to develop a power source would dominate completely.
19:43:31 <Sgeo> Although such a simulation would likely not be able to do science at the level required..
19:43:48 <zzo38> If it is turing complete then it would be possible to make it have to pick up food every now and then, I suppose, but not necessarily in a way that might be expected
19:44:00 <alise> hmm
19:44:08 <alise> there's a replicator in life
19:44:12 <alise> (knightship, but it just erases itself)
19:44:15 <alise> so that's asexual reproduction
19:44:19 <alise> is there any sexual reproduction in life?
19:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Let's assume that the lifeform is made of very sparse, stable technology.
19:44:23 <alise> like, so far known
19:44:30 <Phantom_Hoover> With redundancy to a great degree.
19:44:45 <alise> two ships of some sort that, when some part of them collides in a certain way, they build a third ship
19:44:47 <alise> and then continue on
19:45:01 <Phantom_Hoover> So a stray glider won't cause the kind of catastrophic collapse it does with periodic, dense constructs.
19:45:20 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I haven't been following the Life news lately.
19:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> That replicator came out of nowhere, and people were tinkering with it when I stopped checking regularly.
19:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, there's a replicator gun.
19:46:21 <alise> haha really? link?
19:46:28 <alise> anyway sexual reproduction would be interesting if it exists
19:46:32 * Phantom_Hoover loads it into Golly
19:46:41 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, http://pentadecathlon.com/lifeNews/index.php
19:46:43 <Sgeo> http://linuxdesk.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/could-not-open-location-you-might-not-have-permission-to-open-the-file-totem-movie-player/
19:46:44 <Sgeo> grrrr
19:46:50 <Sgeo> I don't see a youtube.py to patch
19:46:52 <alise> because i'd say that anything that 1) relies on food to survive and 2) reproduces sexually is DEFINITELY life
19:47:10 <alise> (things that don't meet those criteria can be life too, it's just that I think anything that fulfils those two is unquestionably life)
19:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Holy crap it's huge.
19:47:42 <oerjan> i seem to recall some "official" definition of life involving "capable of undergoing darwinian evolution"
19:47:51 <alise> oerjan: that's just in our universe :-)
19:47:53 <alise> hmm
19:47:59 * Sgeo wants conscious life
19:48:01 <alise> if you had those food-eating, reproducing creatures
19:48:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, any form of evolution would pretty quickly lead to lifeforms with their own power supply.
19:48:04 <Sgeo> That can do science!
19:48:08 <alise> and put them in a repeating pattern of space with food in it
19:48:10 <alise> that'd be interesting
19:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover> But they will compete for space.
19:48:19 <alise> because if they're stupid and reproduce in an area they've already gobbled up
19:48:25 <alise> their babies will die before they reach food
19:48:27 <alise> but if they're not
19:48:30 <alise> to start with
19:48:31 <alise> and reproduce enough
19:48:36 <alise> there's a very high chance they'll reproduce forever
19:48:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And some of the space will be unusable, either from corpses or random bits of ash left over from initialisation
19:48:51 <Sgeo> How do we make it so it selects for intelligence?
19:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> So you could get evolution going.
19:48:57 <alise> you can't
19:49:00 <alise> evolution isn't something you design...
19:49:02 <alise> that's sort of the point
19:49:14 <Sgeo> What pressures could we apply, I mean
19:49:17 <alise> evolution is what happens when you have threats in an environment and random mutation due to reproduction
19:49:22 <alise> make clever bad guys.
19:49:24 <alise> which is the same problem
19:49:26 <alise> so basically nothing
19:49:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, if a lifeform can work out how to fix unusable space, it would have an advantage.
19:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> So there's a possible selection for intelligence.
19:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> And sophisticated manipulation and sensory equipment.
19:51:05 <alise> of course what we really want is lifeforms made out of the equivalent of a few hundreds to a few thousands of particles
19:51:15 <alise> when in reality you'd almost certainly have to zoom way, way, way out to see anything
19:51:22 <alise> and at that scale the actual life mechanics aren't very interesting or relevant
19:51:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (Have I made it clear what my assumed lifeforms are like, by the way?"
19:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> *)
19:51:27 <alise> no
19:51:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Very sparse, stable, redundant components for everything.
19:51:50 <alise> oh right.
19:51:53 <Phantom_Hoover> So they're fairly durable.
19:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "Powered" by glider streams between components.
19:52:10 <alise> for my idea of a simple definitely-lifeform, i'm imagining spaceships with little dangly reproductive bits that, when a certain part collides with the reproductive bit, both of them work to create a clone
19:52:11 <Sgeo> Eventually, when we notice them working on low-level physics, how do we communicate with them?
19:52:13 <alise> and then continue on
19:52:23 <alise> and, also, some sort of energy supply that can be replenished by them going into food
19:52:31 <alise> (ideally they'd search for it in a stupid way)
19:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they could send out glider and LWSS streams to sense things.
19:52:46 <alise> if we got that, I'd have the firm conviction that Life can sustain life
19:53:01 <Phantom_Hoover> And communicate information such as genetic code.
19:53:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: true, hey, it'd be peacocky
19:53:10 <alise> if we had evolution,
19:53:15 <alise> they'd evolve things that absorb gliders
19:53:19 <Sgeo> They woudln't know to attempt to initiate communication
19:53:21 <alise> and send back an "OMG REALLY FERTILE HOT HOT" signal
19:53:23 <alise> :)
19:53:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "Look at what fancy spaceships I can synthesise!"
19:53:48 <alise> Sgeo: we don't communicate
19:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Which directly implies good synthesis apparatus and patterns.
19:53:53 <alise> it would be very hard to
19:54:00 <alise> it is incredibly unlikely that they will be anything like us
19:54:12 <alise> heck, even communicating with aliens in this universe is a huge chore at best
19:54:15 <alise> and basically impossible at worse
19:54:24 <alise> we're talking about different *fundamental universe structures* here
19:54:39 <alise> so... we just watch. and don't interfere.
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19:54:51 <Sgeo> But we understand to some extent how their universal structure works
19:55:06 <Sgeo> Better than they do... although perhaps at too low a level to be useful
19:55:11 <alise> now pile an incomprehensible number of layers of complexity on top of it
19:55:16 <alise> plus an evolved form of life that we didn't design
19:55:20 <alise> that has evolved so much it's intelligent
19:55:29 <alise> and is therefore utterly incomprehensible to us with very high probability
19:55:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I can see them discovering particle physics in this model.
19:56:05 <nooga> ;fd
19:56:05 <alise> their particle physics, presumably
19:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
19:56:11 <nooga> tpp
19:56:12 <alise> agreed, but they wouldn't be able to verify that they're in a discrete universe
19:56:13 <alise> because
19:56:22 <alise> to do that, you'd have to observe a dot jumping from one cell to another
19:56:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd like to see their Standard Model...
19:56:27 <alise> now, they can't
19:56:31 <alise> because they *don't exist* in those moments
19:56:40 <alise> because they're busy state-changing themselves
19:56:43 <alise> and this applies to all machinery too
19:56:50 <alise> so to them, the universe looks completely continuous
19:56:52 <alise> how freaky is that?!
19:56:53 <alise> #
19:56:53 <Sgeo> alise, they could do things that a discrete universe is the best explanation for?
19:56:55 <alise> *no #
19:57:01 <nooga> cmdk
19:57:01 <alise> Sgeo: perhaps
19:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but if they discovered the b3/s23 mechanic independently and then discovered "hey, this *exactly* models the results for the LGC!"
19:57:10 <alise> but they could never observe a discrete universe
19:57:13 <alise> large glider collider :D
19:57:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yep
19:57:19 <alise> it's just crazy, i mean
19:57:22 <alise> we could be in a discrete universe
19:57:25 <alise> even though it looks completely continuous
19:57:27 <alise> well, maybe
19:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> We probably *are*.
19:57:36 <Sgeo> I thought it looks discrete to us?
19:57:39 <Sgeo> planck length, etc
19:57:40 <alise> Sgeo: not really
19:57:46 <alise> planck length is just the length below which everything is fucking strange
19:57:58 <alise> which is actually quite an indicator that we're not seeing what's really going on there
19:58:04 <alise> so planck length may be our cell size :)
19:58:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i wouldn't go so far as probably, Mr. Wolfram
19:58:11 <alise> but it sure is interesting
19:58:19 <alise> i love this stuff
19:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, this also gives them the ability to design microchips.
19:58:33 <alise> mm
19:58:40 <alise> synthesis is a bit hard in CA universes i think
19:58:50 <alise> but they'll be at such a macroscopic scale that they won't see the microscopic particles doing crazy shit to get it done :)
19:58:53 <alise> not sure they could evolve it though
19:58:57 <Phantom_Hoover> By using the kind of circuitry we do.
19:59:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: WireWorld :-)
19:59:13 <Sgeo> I still want to talk to them :(
19:59:26 <Sgeo> Maybe tell them about cells and generations
19:59:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I was thinking more of p30 and p46 glider circuits.
19:59:35 <alise> Sgeo: even if you /could/, there's no way you'd possibly live long enough to see them evolve into intelligent life!
19:59:45 <alise> even the fastest Life simulators run many times slower than our freaking universe!
19:59:47 <alise> many, many times slower!
19:59:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Which run *very* quickly compared to even our stable technology.
19:59:53 <alise> we're talking about the entirety of evolution up to humans here!
20:00:26 <alise> the only way this will _ever_ happen is if there is some kind of lunatic project to run and maintain an almost impossibly-fast computer running this over the course of countless civilisations, disasters, wars -- anything
20:00:40 <alise> that somehow *survives* for those -- I don't even know how many years it'd take, far too many, anyway.
20:00:45 * Sgeo decides to rename alise to Debbie Downer
20:00:49 <alise> now
20:00:52 <alise> if we're in a post-singularity situation
20:00:54 <alise> all living inside its VR
20:00:55 <alise> that is
20:00:57 <alise> time outside is irrelevant
20:01:09 <alise> and a gajillion years may pass in what is everyone's perceived second
20:01:15 <alise> then it could be done in seconds
20:01:28 <alise> by simply running (an incomprehensible number) of generations every tick of the AI
20:01:38 <alise> which would have no subjective effect on us
20:01:44 <alise> and we could observe it going by awfully quickly
20:02:16 <alise> (now whether we'd be around to recognise civilisation before it puffs out, who knows? the AI could store all the past generations if the universe has boundless storage... (or just really, REALLY incomprehensibly big storage))
20:03:25 <alise> this stuff is ridiculously interesting
20:03:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:03:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: talk more
20:03:28 <Sgeo> ARGH
20:03:32 <Sgeo> DUMBASSES
20:03:33 <Sgeo> http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=53512&start=0
20:03:33 -!- augur has joined.
20:03:38 <Sgeo> You are so fucking unhelpful
20:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I was thinking about the LGC.
20:03:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Or LSC.
20:04:02 <Gregor> LHC
20:04:07 <alise> linux mint is dumbness
20:04:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Large HWSS Collider?
20:04:24 <Sgeo> alise, I have the same problem as in that post
20:04:32 <Sgeo> But the responders seem to be less-than-bright
20:04:40 <alise> they're linux mint users
20:04:55 <Sgeo> Although maybe Mplayer would work...
20:05:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i would be very surprised if intelligent organisms had fine enough control to synthesise gliders.
20:05:12 <alise> but then, the fact that we can do the LHC is surprising too :)
20:05:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, an alien watching us in the stone age would say the same.
20:05:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "Oh, I suppose they'll split the atom with a pointy rock."
20:05:56 <alise> :D
20:06:11 <alise> "It's a really, really sharp rock, though." "But it's a ROCK."
20:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming that there was an evolutionary advantage already to fine glider syntheses.
20:07:04 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:07:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Since they are useful for a lot of things.
20:07:42 <alise> imagine if they discovered the lightspeed telegraph :)
20:07:55 <alise> "What the fucking fucking what." "Yeah, you know what? I'ma start believing in God."
20:08:14 <alise> Agar:
20:08:29 <alise> heh
20:08:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Agar was one of the things I considered them discovering.
20:08:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I bet the bubbles in agar end up revolutionising their physics into something completely incomprehensible like quantum physics did for us :)
20:08:57 <alise> but otoh
20:09:01 <alise> how the hell would they observe agar?
20:09:04 <alise> you can't really, can you?
20:09:07 <alise> only the time from start to end
20:09:09 <alise> not what happens inside
20:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, their sensory arrays will cause a catastrophic collapse in the agar.
20:09:19 <alise> yeah
20:09:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh, what's over th--
20:09:24 <Sgeo> If a bubble leaves the Agar...
20:09:26 <alise> and how the heck would they build it?
20:09:34 <Vorpal> um what
20:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> *massive glider wash*
20:09:35 <alise> can you even build agar?
20:09:38 <Sgeo> Oh
20:09:43 <Phantom_Hoover> You can, but it's complex.
20:09:44 <Vorpal> are you discussing life in game of life or something?
20:09:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: haha wow i just realised, what would a glider gun look like to them
20:09:50 <Sgeo> Vorpal, yes
20:09:51 <alise> "WHAT THE FUCK ALL THE COLOURS"
20:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Spacefillers do it, for insance.
20:09:53 <Vorpal> ah
20:10:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hey, still life would be invisible to them.
20:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, probably like a laser, if anything.
20:10:05 <alise> well
20:10:06 <Sgeo> What if they accidentally built a spacefiller?
20:10:13 <alise> if they used better spaceships
20:10:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless they hit it with a glider.
20:10:16 <alise> to see
20:10:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, not much.
20:10:20 <alise> then they could see still life
20:10:22 <Vorpal> alise, is *intelligent* life possible in a completely deterministic simulation?
20:10:25 <Phantom_Hoover> It would hit something and burn.
20:10:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, naturally.
20:10:34 <alise> Vorpal: yes.
20:10:37 <alise> unless you believe in free will
20:10:37 <Vorpal> well, that depends on your view of free will I guess
20:10:39 <alise> which just makes you an idiot
20:10:49 <alise> (free will in /that/ sense, that is)
20:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, most of our Life patterns are unbelievably fragile.
20:11:12 <alise> i don't think you can synthesise a spacefiller
20:11:15 <alise> at least not with current knowledge
20:11:17 <Phantom_Hoover> A single cell inverted can destroy everything.
20:11:27 <alise> although yeah, you just need better lifeforms :P
20:11:30 <alise> you can easily destroy a spacefiller
20:11:35 <Phantom_Hoover> You should be *able* to synth a spacefiller.
20:11:35 <alise> "easily"
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20:11:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh right tur
20:11:45 <alise> *true
20:11:48 <Sgeo> GoL Life might end up being just that fragile
20:11:48 <Vorpal> alise, the "real" world isn't deterministic, at least if you subscribe to quantum mechanics
20:11:54 <Sgeo> Such that a stray glider kills everyone
20:11:56 <alise> well, is it known that salvo glider synthesis or whatever it is
20:12:02 <alise> is it known that you can synthesise more than that?
20:12:06 <alise> Vorpal: not necessarily true at all
20:12:14 <Sgeo> Then science comes along..
20:12:14 <alise> Vorpal: they could be pseudorandom numbers from the universe above
20:12:19 <alise> which would look totally random to us
20:12:21 <Vorpal> alise, hm okay
20:12:22 <alise> assuming we don't know the seed, etc.
20:12:29 <alise> besides
20:12:37 <alise> i sort of doubt quantum effects *give the brain free will*
20:12:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Global synthesis is still unsolved.
20:12:39 <alise> that's just insane
20:12:44 * Sgeo agrees with alise
20:12:56 <alise> iirc neurons interact in some way with quantum effects
20:12:57 <Vorpal> alise, true, just saying it isn't deterministic
20:13:05 <Sgeo> I used to ponder that God interacted with the world by quantum effects
20:13:05 <alise> but i doubt that matters as much as the free will believers would like to think
20:13:12 <alise> you used to ponder some stupid stuff :P
20:13:36 <Sgeo> Wait, neurons do interact with quantum effects?
20:13:37 <zzo38> In my opinion, quantum effects are part of the effect that makes free will, and possibly also partially the effect of consciousness.
20:13:39 * Phantom_Hoover pondered if everyone in the world was a reincarnation of his line of consciousness, conspiring against him.
20:13:42 <alise> Sgeo: well it was a pop science article
20:13:43 <alise> so probably not
20:13:52 <alise> but apparently some little element of neurons was quantum
20:13:53 <alise> i dunno
20:13:55 <Vorpal> a lot of things does that you wouldn't think do
20:13:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: there's a very short story about that
20:14:01 <Vorpal> (interact with quantum effects that is)
20:14:03 <Vorpal> like gold.
20:14:20 <Vorpal> iirc gold is yellowish due to quantum tunnelling
20:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, you actually construct nigh-invulnerable shielding in Life.
20:14:21 <alise> tl;dr he dies, "hi, i'm you." "wat" "so is everyone else." "ohhh" "you're actually an alien trying this shit out." "ok" "have fun" [revived]
20:14:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: is there a database of life patterns anywhere?
20:14:27 <alise> disconnected from the wiki
20:14:34 <alise> stores rle, shows it, description, comments, categories
20:14:44 <alise> gives them all unique identifiers
20:14:45 <alise> if not, why not?
20:14:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there's the Life Lexicon, but it's not at all thorough.
20:14:55 <zzo38> Vorpal: O, so that is why elements are the color they are?
20:14:56 <alise> Vorpal: yeah gold's colour is cool :)
20:15:01 <alise> zzo38: not necessarily
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20:15:03 <alise> just gold, i think
20:15:06 <alise> and maybe some others
20:15:08 <alise> not every element by far
20:15:11 <Sgeo> Let's pretend that it weren't completely impossible, and try to communicate with GoL intelligent life
20:15:11 <alise> gold is a strange one
20:15:14 <Sgeo> What would we say?
20:15:18 <zzo38> Just gold?
20:15:21 <alise> Sgeo: does it matter? they wouldn't believe us.
20:15:23 <Vorpal> zzo38, maybe copper too
20:15:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, b3s23
20:15:29 <alise> at least not their sceptics
20:15:37 <Sgeo> We could prove it
20:15:44 <alise> no we couldn't
20:15:45 <alise> by definition
20:15:49 <Sgeo> We could ask them to perform some experiment, and change the result wildly
20:15:57 <alise> you can always formulate a new theory of physics that works like that
20:16:01 <alise> that's why we can't be sure god exists in here
20:16:04 <alise> and it is in fact an argument often posed
20:16:08 <Sgeo> Oh, prove that physics is what we describe it to be
20:16:09 <Vorpal> zzo38, anyway it is just for metals in the metal state. If they aren't greyish (copper and gold are the only ones iirc?) then it might be quantum tunneling
20:16:17 <alise> Sgeo: impossible
20:16:27 <Sgeo> alise, that's what you were getting at?
20:16:30 <Sgeo> Hmm
20:16:33 <zzo38> Vorpal: So that's why! Now I understand a little bit.
20:16:44 <alise> it is possible to be very convincing
20:16:50 <alise> but we can never prove it outright
20:16:53 <Vorpal> zzo38, well, I'm not completely sure that is the case for copper. *googles*
20:16:56 <alise> and, well, i have a feeling that in *this* universe
20:17:08 <alise> there is a _sizeable_ amount of atheists who would *never* believe
20:17:26 <alise> (not *rationalists* of course, but *atheists*)
20:17:34 <Sgeo> Even if a voice came out, stated "Run this experiment, this is waht the result would be", etc.?
20:17:34 <Vorpal> ah no, not the case for copper
20:17:35 <alise> (although they probably think of themselves as the former)
20:17:41 <alise> Sgeo: you don't seem to understand what proof means
20:17:44 <Vorpal> "Copper, osmium (blueish) and gold (yellow) are the only three elemental metals with a natural color other than gray or silver.[3]"
20:17:46 <alise> even evolution isn't proven
20:17:57 <alise> proof is *rock hard* and *completely, mathematically unquestionable* even in theory
20:18:14 <Sgeo> Hmm
20:18:22 <alise> of course very little is actually proven about this universe
20:18:24 <alise> if anything
20:18:26 <alise> so it's not a huge deal
20:18:34 <alise> but anyway, i think we'd have a hard time communicating like them
20:18:37 <alise> even if we knew their language
20:18:41 <alise> we don't know how they *think*
20:18:44 <alise> we don't know how to argue with them
20:18:47 <alise> we don't know how their logic works
20:18:57 <alise> so we'd have a very hard time convincing them of anything
20:19:08 <Vorpal> zzo38, it seems to be different mechanisms for gold and copper
20:19:11 <Sgeo> hmmmmmm
20:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, the direction rules in Life would lead to some interesting effects.
20:19:21 <zzo38> If you say everyone has a reincarnation of your (or a specific person's) line of consciousness, then you have failed to take it into account as the entire universe as a whole. Everything is a part of the entire universe as a whole, including by quantum entanglement and warped spacetime geometry and other things.
20:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover> You would only be able to talk to someone if they were in a cardinal line with one of their emitter organs.
20:20:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: damn, imagine their porn.
20:20:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how so?
20:20:24 <alise> also not true, there are non-cardinal spaceships
20:20:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, knightships
20:20:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, not simple ones.
20:20:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well okay
20:20:38 <Vorpal> that's true
20:20:43 <alise> i'll bet any sentient organism is a hell of a lot bigger than the knightship!
20:20:44 <Phantom_Hoover> The smallest is the *replicator*, for pete's sake.
20:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> And it moves at a crawl.
20:21:01 <zzo38> There is evidence for micro-evolution and parts of macro-evolution, but that isn't proof, and we can have a lot of things about evolution wrong, that we do not know. Nevertheless, these theories can help even if they are entirely wrong.
20:21:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, correction: smallest known. There could be other ones.
20:21:08 <Sgeo> What if this were in b36s23?
20:21:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose it would be all right for very long-distance communications along a well-maintained channel.
20:21:18 <alise> zzo38: macro-evolution is true.
20:21:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, the universe would be dominated by replicators
20:21:29 <alise> there is doubt, but it is so small as to fall far below the doubt we have in other things we readily accept.
20:21:35 <Sgeo> BRB
20:21:39 <zzo38> alise: At least in general. Of course it is possible to have some details wrong.
20:21:44 <alise> zzo38: not really
20:21:48 <alise> evolution isn't very detailed
20:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> HL's replicator is pretty common in random soups.
20:21:50 <alise> it's a simple tautology
20:21:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also, what about the diagonals? Gliders aren't moving in the cardinal directions
20:22:06 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, cardinals + diagonals.
20:22:19 <alise> "if you have random mutations as part of reproduction, and you have threats, then obviously mutations that better survive threats will live to reproduce more, passing on this mutation"
20:22:31 <alise> "therefore, the offspring of the mutated will outlive the non-mutated, because they have better survival characteristics"
20:22:39 <alise> the end
20:23:05 <Vorpal> <alise> evolution isn't very detailed <-- do you mean "natural selection" with evolution?
20:23:11 <alise> well, yes.
20:23:15 <alise> so does everyone else :)
20:23:33 <alise> evolution is just the changes being passed down, natural selection is why it helps :P
20:23:39 <alise> neither are questionable in any way
20:23:45 <zzo38> alise: Ah, if that is what you mean by "macro-evolution" then obviously it works. But it doesn't mean *everything* actually works that way, even if many things do work that way.
20:24:06 <Vorpal> alise, hm I read somewhere that in the bleeding edge biology research there is a discussion if natural selection is the only driving force of evolution
20:24:21 <alise> there's discussion about an awful lot of crap in science :p
20:24:30 <Vorpal> alise, what about genetic drift then?
20:24:37 <alise> yeah yeah i know
20:24:42 <alise> but natural selection IS a driving force
20:24:44 <alise> even if it isn't the only one
20:24:49 <alise> and i think it being the main one is basically assured
20:25:04 <Vorpal> alise, I never disputed that it was the major one
20:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, sexual selection has long been acknowledged as a non-natural selective force.
20:25:14 <Vorpal> just that it was the only one
20:25:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm sexual selection being?
20:25:49 <Vorpal> (I'm no expert on this, I just remembered reading a few things)
20:26:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, what it says on the tin. One sex selects their mate based on a characteristic with no survival value.
20:26:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Like a peacock's tail.
20:26:20 <alise> Or penis length :P
20:26:30 <Vorpal> har
20:27:33 <Gregor> alise: That selection particularly has no survival value when it's the male doing the selection.
20:27:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Organisms with the characteristic mate, others don't.
20:28:00 <alise> Gregor: Nothing has any relevance in homosexual couplings :P
20:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Fun fact: humans have, proportionately, the longest penises of any apes.
20:28:07 <alise> Seeing as, y'know, there's no reproduction.
20:28:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: HA HA SUCKS TO BE APES
20:28:19 <alise> Wait, have you measured this?
20:28:27 <Gregor> alise: Who said it was a homosexual coupling? Surely when choosing a female mate you want the one with the smallest penis size :P
20:28:29 <alise> YOU'RE AN APE
20:28:32 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it was in one of Jared Diamond's books.
20:28:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, breast size is similarly disproportionate.
20:28:48 <alise> Gregor: Pretty sure vaginoplasty does not include ovaroplasty yet :P
20:28:54 <alise> Ovaroplasty: WORST WORD EVER
20:29:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Disproportionate? I LIKE disproportionate."
20:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, hence the selection.
20:29:52 <Harpyon_> So I just had an idea about creating a python package with different esoteric interpreters in it, allowing you to do stuff like "python esoteric.py brainfuck hello.bf"
20:29:54 <Harpyon_> thoughts?
20:30:09 <alise> Harpyon_: Hellooooo Esco
20:30:16 <Harpyon_> What's esco?
20:30:16 <alise> Actual comment: utterly pointless
20:30:21 <alise> Here, I can implement esoteric.py easily:
20:30:25 <alise> just execute the rest of the command line
20:30:26 <Sgeo> It's boring.
20:30:28 <Harpyon_> That's what I was wondering actually, does such a thing exist already?
20:30:30 <alise> There is no point having it in one file.
20:30:31 <Sgeo> Nothing bad about it, just.. boring
20:30:33 <alise> No point at all.
20:30:35 <Vorpal> Harpyon_, yes but it sucks
20:30:43 <alise> It is exactly equivalent to having "brainfuck" be a separate executable.
20:30:43 <Harpyon_> I didn't mean all in one file
20:30:49 <Sgeo> Even PSOX is more interesting
20:30:49 <Sgeo> >.>
20:30:51 <alise> Harpyon_: Then why have it all run with esoteric.py?
20:30:57 <alise> Why not just run the interpreters directly?!?!
20:31:03 <Harpyon_> no but
20:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Symlink interpreters into ~/bin; problem solved.
20:31:06 <Harpyon_> >.>
20:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> You can use any executable language.
20:31:28 <alise> Anyway, we're discussing ape penis sizes and discrete universes, stop being on-topic.
20:31:31 <Sgeo> I think Harpyon_ wants a single package deal
20:31:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Continue.
20:31:50 <Sgeo> This one package contains a variety of esolang interpreters
20:31:52 <Vorpal> alise, are you sure our universe isn't discrete?
20:31:53 <Sgeo> Sort of thing
20:31:59 <Harpyon_> Yeah kinda Sgeo
20:32:09 <alise> Vorpal: very unsure!
20:32:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, on penis size or on discreteness?
20:32:14 <alise> i'm more sure that it is discrete
20:32:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Combine both.
20:32:22 <Vorpal> alise, ah
20:32:26 <alise> "Ha ha, your penis is only 10^23 cells long."
20:32:37 <Sgeo> But they can't see cells!
20:32:37 <Vorpal> -_
20:32:40 <Vorpal> -_-
20:32:48 <Sgeo> Maybe they'll have a way to measure cells though
20:32:48 <alise> Sgeo: IT WAS A JOKE
20:32:49 <Vorpal> how can they "see" at all
20:32:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, they can estimate their dimensions.
20:32:52 <Vorpal> I mean
20:32:54 <alise> Vorpal: how can we "see" at all
20:33:00 <alise> shit hits our eyes
20:33:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, he has a point.
20:33:03 <alise> reports back to brain
20:33:09 <alise> in a CA, it's more likely that they send out shit
20:33:11 <alise> the shit comes back
20:33:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Almost all collisions in Life are destructive.
20:33:12 <alise> hits their eyes
20:33:14 <alise> reports back to brain
20:33:15 <Vorpal> alise, well there are photons and sensors for them. You would need some sort of "glider gun sun" or something
20:33:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: naturally
20:33:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: on *microscopic* scales
20:33:23 <Vorpal> that spread gliders everywhere
20:33:30 <alise> Vorpal: nobody said it has to be like in this universe
20:33:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: we're basically looking at atoms, remember
20:33:38 <Vorpal> alise, of course not
20:33:42 <alise> on the large scale
20:33:43 <Vorpal> alise, there is no need for vision even
20:33:44 <Sgeo> Oops, my trying to see created a destructive construction. We all die now.
20:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so we have ageing!
20:33:47 <alise> really, really large, macro scale
20:33:54 <alise> REALLY REALLY REALLY large, macro scale
20:33:58 <alise> you could easily have a resilient spaceship
20:34:03 <alise> that can return home after hitting shit
20:34:06 <alise> or, like Vorpal said
20:34:10 <Phantom_Hoover> There will be slow degeneration over time regardless.
20:34:12 <alise> "glider gun sun" or something of that sort
20:34:16 <oerjan> `addquote <alise> Anyway, we're discussing ape penis sizes and discrete universes, stop being on-topic.
20:34:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like ageing?
20:34:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes.
20:34:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: again remember
20:34:30 <Vorpal> hm
20:34:31 <alise> we're looking at particles in a vacuum
20:34:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
20:34:38 <alise> nothing says we have to have vacuum where life is :P
20:34:41 <Sgeo> What patterns might be accidentally made that expand endlessly?
20:34:44 <alise> they may live entirely in an agar!
20:34:45 <Sgeo> And destructively?
20:34:47 <alise> a very complex, subtle agar
20:34:51 <alise> but an agar nonetheless
20:34:53 <Vorpal> alise, agar being? I forgot
20:35:06 <alise> Vorpal: basically any material that certain stuff can move around in
20:35:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, stable tiling of the plane.
20:35:09 <alise> usually, at lightspeed
20:35:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah
20:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's... not the standard definition.
20:35:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well true
20:35:26 <Sgeo> They can't really evolve to live in an agar, can they?
20:35:29 <alise> but it's usually what an agar gets you
20:35:36 <alise> Sgeo: the agar can be there before they are
20:35:38 <alise> think big bang :P
20:35:42 <Sgeo> If they live in an agar, then it's because we did it
20:35:42 <ais523> could someone with the esoknowledge go and correct http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish's blatant misinformation about Befunge?
20:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Even the standard, boring agar doesn't have c transmission in all directions.
20:35:49 <alise> have a huge, completely random pattern
20:35:52 <alise> HUGE, i mean
20:35:52 <ais523> *<http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish>
20:35:58 <alise> more than any of our computers' memories, combined
20:36:03 <alise> set it running
20:36:05 <alise> hope for the best
20:36:08 <alise> try again if it doesn't work
20:36:12 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what about the sparse universe model?
20:36:13 <alise> of course we'd want to cheat, but
20:36:18 <ais523> it's one thing saying your lang is different from Befunge, and another saying it's different /because it's threaded/
20:36:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that could work.
20:36:27 <alise> ais523: ha!
20:36:29 <alise> Harpyon_:
20:36:35 <HackEgo> 228|<alise> Anyway, we're discussing ape penis sizes and discrete universes, stop being on-topic.
20:36:42 <alise> ais523: Harpyon_ just reinvented esco a few seconds ago
20:36:45 <alise> so he's active
20:36:49 <alise> he/she
20:37:01 <Vorpal> Harpyon_, befunge98 have threads
20:37:03 <ais523> ah, missed that Harpyon_ was in the channel
20:37:04 <Sgeo> Am I considered to have reinvented PESOIX?
20:37:06 <alise> *has
20:37:12 <ais523> Sgeo: or EsoOS?
20:37:21 <Phantom_Hoover> The sparse universe model is nicely near to our universe, actually.
20:37:24 <ais523> probably not, the idea's too obvious to count as being reinvented
20:37:32 <Harpyon_> What's up.
20:37:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not really. our universe is 3d :P
20:37:41 <Harpyon_> What, it does?
20:37:41 <alise> Harpyon_: you lied!
20:37:44 <Harpyon_> D:
20:37:52 <Vorpal> Harpyon_, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish claims to be made by you. However befunge98 have threads.
20:37:54 <Harpyon_> I never saw anything about that
20:37:56 <alise> *HAS
20:37:58 <alise> *HAS DAMMIT
20:38:03 <alise> YOU'VE HAD LIKE 48545 YEARS TO LEARN HAD/HAS
20:38:05 <alise> *HAVE/HAS
20:38:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, in the sense that almost everything is photon-permeable empty space
20:38:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: bah
20:38:15 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:38:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i want a fun universe
20:38:24 <Sgeo> I has a way to give alise an aneurseum
20:38:31 <Sgeo> And I can never spell that word
20:38:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It is fun, on large scales!
20:38:46 <Vorpal> Harpyon_, and with the loadable extension (fingerprint) ATHR it can even get async-multiple-core style threads
20:38:47 <Harpyon_> I don't see anything about threads in the instructions of befunge
20:38:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Aneurysm.
20:38:54 <alise> <Sgeo> I has a way to give alise an aneurseum ;; just seems like cheezburgr
20:38:55 <ais523> Harpyon_: are you looking at Befunge-98?
20:39:03 <alise> Harpyon_: http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html
20:39:05 <alise> have fun
20:39:08 <Sgeo> I could just sing...
20:39:08 <ais523> IIRC, the command is "t"
20:39:13 <ais523> but I'm not a Funge expert
20:39:16 * Harpyon_ hides
20:39:17 <Vorpal> Harpyon_, befunge93 is different from befunge98. Befunge98 is rather extended
20:39:19 <alise> 116tSplit/98/c Split IP
20:39:38 <Sgeo> Harpyon_, from my singing? Good idea
20:39:40 <Sgeo> Very good idea
20:40:24 <Vorpal> alise, see /msg
20:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Harpyon_, harping on?
20:40:36 <alise> <Vorpal> oh god I think sgeo got stuck in a loop discussing his singing, instead of discussing active worlds
20:40:36 <alise> <Vorpal> -_-
20:40:51 <Vorpal> very well....
20:41:03 <alise> it's just amusing
20:41:11 <Vorpal> alise, that was a nasty thing to do though :P
20:41:12 -!- iGO has joined.
20:41:18 <alise> okay i promise never to do it again
20:41:19 * Sgeo is amused
20:41:20 <alise> don't hurt me with sticks
20:41:21 -!- iGO has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:41:32 * Phantom_Hoover hurts alise with sticks ------
20:41:38 <Vorpal> alise, I don't plan to...
20:41:45 <Vorpal> alise, I wouldn't call this thing a stick really
20:41:50 <Sgeo> The Order of the Stick?
20:41:51 <Vorpal> I mean, it might have the same general shape
20:41:57 <alise> Vorpal is referring to his penis
20:42:05 <alise> * Freud :Nickname is already in use.
20:42:14 <Vorpal> alise, but calling an ICBM a stick is really stretching it
20:42:30 * Sgeo ducks and covers
20:42:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you could perhaps sing in activeworlds?
20:43:04 <Sgeo> AW does have a voice... thingy
20:43:24 <Vorpal> ouch, I didn't plan for that answer
20:43:30 <Phantom_Hoover> This'll kill it for good.
20:44:09 -!- nooga has joined.
20:44:13 <alise> thankfully, there is nobody else in AW to hear Sgeo
20:44:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, kill which?
20:44:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the singing or AW?
20:44:23 <alise> both :P
20:44:35 <Vorpal> ah
20:45:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover probably means just AW
20:45:32 * oerjan swats alise (hey it's not a _stick_) -----###
20:46:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, you could have used the saucepan, that would have made it completely unambiguous (as far as I can tell at least)
20:47:29 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oh god I think sgeo got stuck in a loop discussing his singing, instead of discussing active worlds <-- wait is this good or bad?
20:47:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hmm
20:47:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Life movies would be 1d
20:47:47 <alise> since our movies are 2d :)
20:47:55 <alise> (plus i can't think how they could see in 2d)
20:48:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, I have no idea
20:48:06 <alise> 1D Life porn
20:48:06 <Sgeo> I think they could see in 2d
20:48:14 <alise> buffering and pixellated
20:48:17 <Sgeo> I don't know how, though
20:48:25 <Vorpal> <alise> (plus i can't think how they could see in 2d) <--- hm
20:48:33 <Sgeo> And any 1d displays would need to have some thickness, I think
20:48:39 <Vorpal> alise, does that mean that we are 4D but can only see in 3D?
20:48:48 <Vorpal> probably not
20:48:55 <Vorpal> though it would be awesome if it did
20:48:58 <Sgeo> Although, it probably wouldn't display individual cells
20:49:16 <alise> Vorpal: we see in 2d
20:49:23 <alise> with rudimentary depth perception
20:49:37 <alise> (some people lack depth perception and they see in true 2d. these people hate stairs)
20:49:40 <Sgeo> Suppose their eye had a sort of quantum unit that they can't see lower down then
20:49:40 <alise> (no, really, they do)
20:49:51 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, cover one eye and look at things.
20:49:55 <Vorpal> alise, you mean one-eyed person?
20:49:59 <Vorpal> um
20:50:02 <Sgeo> So even without my glasses, I have feeble depth perception, not none
20:50:03 <alise> Vorpal: no, some people actually lack depth perception entirely
20:50:06 <Vorpal> that is not true, due to focus
20:50:09 <Vorpal> alise, well okay
20:50:14 <alise> it's an actual thing
20:50:17 <alise> you're born with it oc
20:50:18 <alise> *ofc
20:50:23 <Phantom_Hoover> With a bit of care, you can make your hand into a cardboard cutout!
20:50:36 <alise> try running quickly with one eye closed
20:50:37 <Vorpal> alise, so they have like shutter = f11? Otherwise they would get blur out of focus like everyone else
20:50:38 <alise> a scary experience
20:50:41 <alise> everything looms
20:50:49 <alise> Vorpal: i'm not sure exactly
20:50:53 <Sgeo> For me, that's the default
20:51:01 <alise> i just know they they literally have no depth perceptions, and stairs are their worst enemy
20:51:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what?
20:51:05 <Sgeo> Glasses give me an incredible sensation of actually living in a 3d world
20:51:10 <Vorpal> err
20:51:12 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I have one good eye and one terrible eye
20:51:13 <nooga> only pinhole cameras are close to hiperfocal
20:51:18 <Vorpal> Sgeo, okay
20:51:21 <Sgeo> So when I wear glasses, I get use of both eyes
20:51:32 <Vorpal> I get everything more than, say, 30 cm a bit blurred without glasses
20:51:38 <Sgeo> Actually, hmm, my bad eye can still see this screen ok
20:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, I had that idea about Lifeforms using spaceships to advertise their fitness.
20:51:43 <Vorpal> but it doesn't really change the 3D perception
20:51:54 <Sgeo> But a room away, I can't read text
20:52:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: indeed
20:52:07 <Sgeo> Well, it .. looks different, somehow
20:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Since advanced synthesis facilities have huge survival value.
20:52:16 <alise> :D
20:52:27 <alise> "Hi, I'm the Yoyodone Synthesis and Manufacturing Corporation -- but you can call me Yoyo."
20:52:36 <alise> *Corporation's Main Facility
20:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I can synthesise a caterpillar!
20:52:45 <alise> "Wanna see my SECONDARY facility? ;)"
20:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Mate with me!
20:52:56 <Sgeo> I can synthesize quantum bombs by accident!
20:53:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how would the "logic" for decisions be done?
20:53:28 <alise> Vorpal: wat?
20:53:40 <Sgeo> We don't know
20:53:45 <Vorpal> the "thinking" so to speak
20:53:47 <Vorpal> how
20:53:49 <alise> not all organisms think.
20:53:51 <nooga> i can kill a single bacteria in range of 100km
20:53:54 <Sgeo> It would have evolved
20:53:55 <Vorpal> alise, well okay
20:54:03 <nooga> ask me to do it
20:54:06 <alise> as for basic decision-making, uhh, you can do "conditionals" in life
20:54:06 <Sgeo> We're hoping for thinkers ;)
20:54:17 <Sgeo> Hmm
20:54:20 <alise> What my mind read into that ;): <Sgeo> So we can mate with them ;)
20:54:22 <Vorpal> nooga, how precise is it?
20:54:48 <Sgeo> Suppose that life exists easily on a small scale, but thought needs a large-scale.. oh wait, that's the case in this universe
20:54:51 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway none of us would be close enough to be able to verify it :P
20:55:13 <Sgeo> alise, you're turning into me again
20:55:17 <alise> life doesn't exist on THAT small a scale
20:55:24 <alise> nothing like what we look at in Golly :P
20:55:41 <Vorpal> indeed
20:55:55 <Vorpal> even a bacteria in GOL (if possible) would be enormous
20:56:01 <Sgeo> We need a name for a unit of life in GOL-Universe
20:56:31 <Sgeo> Hmm, assuming that such a concept necessarily makes sense
20:56:45 <Vorpal> alise, is lagoon's (sp?) ant TC btw?
20:56:51 <alise> Sgeo: "organism"
20:56:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I think something cellular would arise.
20:56:57 <alise> Vorpal: langton's, and no way.
20:57:02 <alise> it repeats. always
20:57:12 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/LangtonsAnt.png
20:57:13 <alise> the corridors
20:57:14 <Vorpal> alise, not proved iirc?
20:57:15 <Vorpal> as in
20:57:20 <alise> "The universality of Langton's ant was proven in 2000."
20:57:20 <alise> wtf
20:57:23 <alise> okay i'm wrong
20:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought multiple ants interacted in a universal way.
20:57:27 <alise> worldview destroyed
20:57:27 <Vorpal> wow
20:57:28 <Sgeo> They can do organism-level science, presumably?
20:57:38 <Phantom_Hoover> That'll be what they are talking about.
20:57:41 <alise> "In 2000, Gajardo et al. showed a construction that calculates any boolean circuit using the trajectory of a single instance of Langton's ant.[2] Thus, it would be possible to simulate a Turing machine using the ant's trajectory for computation. This means that the ant is capable of universal computation."
20:57:44 <alise> AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
20:57:45 <alise> I'm scared now
20:57:48 <alise> very scared
20:58:07 <Vorpal> alise, indeed, I thought it always settled into that repeating pattern
20:58:35 <Vorpal> alise, also:
20:58:37 <Vorpal> "All finite initial configurations tested eventually converge to the same repetitive pattern suggesting that the "highway" is an attractor of Langton's ant, but no one has been able to prove that this is true for all such initial configurations. It is only known that the ant's trajectory is always unbounded regardless of the initial configuration"
20:59:37 * alise cries a lot
20:59:55 <Vorpal> alise, what?
21:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it's not that bad.
21:00:25 <alise> EVERYTHING
21:00:33 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I realized something before alise did
21:00:36 <Sgeo> Earlier
21:00:47 <Sgeo> So that hasn't been helping]
21:01:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently, he had a bet on that LA wasn't TC.
21:02:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what thing?
21:02:31 <Sgeo> That globally reversible CA implied that no non-stilllife became a stilllife
21:02:47 <Vorpal> alise, btw if life ever evolves in GOL, what are the chances of us realising it is life
21:02:53 <alise> life? high
21:02:55 <alise> intelligent life? low
21:03:10 <Vorpal> alise, how do you mean
21:03:17 <alise> we will probably recognise that intelligent life is certainly something complex, but unless we've been following the evolution, we will probably see it more as a huge machine
21:03:27 <alise> and even if we have been watching the evolution, it would be hard for us to recognise what is intelligent and what is not
21:03:35 <alise> also, it takes way too long to ever observe this stuff on a meaningful scale
21:03:45 <Vorpal> alise, and how would we be able to tell if something was life at all?
21:03:55 <alise> same way we do in this universe
21:03:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, actually, it can happen with some caveats.
21:03:59 <alise> basic life isn't *that* gigantic
21:04:03 <Sgeo> Maybe if we see it doing experiments that are sensitive to low-level things, we'd know that they discovered low-level physics?
21:04:07 <alise> especially since GoL cells are quite useful
21:04:10 <alise> as opposed to stupid quarks
21:04:12 <Vorpal> alise, well here we tend to look for carbon
21:04:20 <alise> carbon is irrelevant
21:04:24 <Vorpal> indee
21:04:26 <Vorpal> indeed*
21:04:31 <alise> non-carbon based lifeforms are possible even in this universe
21:04:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, in what sense?
21:04:35 <Vorpal> alise, yes
21:04:47 <oerjan> large scale order would be a pretty obvious clue
21:05:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that is, building life out of GoL cells is a lot easier than building life out of quarks
21:05:01 <Sgeo> Hmm, would there end up being "elements" in their universe possibly?
21:05:04 <alise> since GoL cells actually make sense ;)
21:05:04 <Vorpal> alise, what exactly is life? Isn't it just a complex machine?
21:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> They're *possible*, just highly improbable.
21:05:12 <alise> Vorpal: or a simple machine.
21:05:17 <Sgeo> That would imply a .. weird level of simulation I think
21:05:18 <alise> it has to interact with its environment, probably
21:05:20 <Sgeo> And is unlikely
21:05:22 <alise> so the turing machine isn't life
21:05:26 <alise> since it just sits there and computes
21:05:30 <Vorpal> hm
21:05:32 <alise> a turing machine that moved around and did stuff would be life
21:05:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I still like the idea of attoscale engineering for the Lifeforms.
21:05:53 <nooga> ni
21:05:54 <Vorpal> alise, does that mean stuff like a lego bot that moves around is alive?
21:06:01 <alise> Vorpal: sure.
21:06:04 <nooga> i'm the knight who say ni
21:06:08 <alise> it's not organic life, but it's as much alive as an amoeba is
21:06:08 <alise> IF
21:06:11 <alise> Vorpal: IF, it reproduces.
21:06:15 <alise> asexually or sexually.
21:06:15 <Vorpal> alise, ah good point
21:06:26 <Vorpal> alise, so what about crossing a hourse and a donkey...
21:06:29 <alise> an organism is a machine that moves around, does stuff, and reproduces
21:06:31 <Vorpal> is that dead then?
21:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It would need lots of shielding and carefully controlled inputs.
21:06:36 <alise> Vorpal: shut up :)
21:06:45 <alise> an organism is a machine that moves around, does stuff, and that either reproduces or is the descendent of something that does
21:06:52 <Vorpal> alise, though I guess you could argue that it's cells are still alive
21:06:57 <Vorpal> because they can divide
21:07:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean?
21:07:24 <Sgeo> Awesome. Minitube doesn't work
21:07:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, attocicuitry.
21:07:39 <Sgeo> Define "atto"?
21:07:50 <Vorpal> alise, okay, so what building a lego bot that could, given a carefully sorted set of lego elements, build a copy of itself?
21:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, really effing small.
21:08:07 <alise> cicuitry!
21:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> p30 glider technology small.
21:08:18 <Sgeo> I still think we need a proper name for cell/generation level stuff
21:08:24 <alise> Vorpal: in a universe of lego bricks, sure :P
21:08:32 <alise> Vorpal: well
21:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I would go for "atto".
21:08:36 <alise> it'd have to sort from raw materials
21:08:43 <alise> I think i'd mandate that it has to sort the bricks itself
21:08:46 <alise> but even if it doesn't
21:08:47 <alise> it's very close
21:08:56 <Vorpal> alise, well, we can't produce some stuff from raw materials. Mostly some amino acids
21:09:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how big are p30s again?
21:09:06 <Vorpal> alise, we need other animals or plants to do that
21:09:08 <Vorpal> then we eat them
21:09:13 <Vorpal> thus we are not alive?
21:09:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, QB shuttles and pentadecathlons.
21:09:20 <Sgeo> I still want to _talk_ to them
21:09:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: link me to a p30, i've lost my sense of scale
21:09:36 <alise> Sgeo: *you can't*
21:09:44 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Gosper gun?
21:09:44 <Sgeo> Any ships containing these beings would probably be large
21:09:46 <Vorpal> alise, as for sorting the bricks I guess an NXT have the power to do image processing
21:09:51 <Sgeo> But does large imply slow?
21:09:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ah. noted
21:09:55 <alise> Sgeo: no.
21:10:09 <alise> well
21:10:10 <alise> maybe
21:10:13 <alise> big in both dimensions, sure
21:10:16 <alise> big in one dimension, probably not
21:10:20 <Vorpal> alise, but colour sensor + brick sorting has been done
21:10:23 <Sgeo> Would they have any incentive to go into space?
21:10:30 <nooga> mrmbwab
21:10:34 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe if the universe started with a random soup
21:10:50 <Sgeo> There would be some evidence of amazing technology out there
21:11:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, did you follow my earlier stuff on resource competition?
21:11:12 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, um, competing for space
21:11:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Space is isotropic, and it's their only resource.
21:11:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not really
21:11:25 <alise> food
21:11:30 <Vorpal> alise, food?
21:11:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, not in Life.
21:11:36 <Vorpal> how does it need that
21:11:49 <Sgeo> alise was hoping we'd design the basic lifeforms to need food
21:11:58 <alise> not necessarily
21:12:07 <alise> i mean i know there's perpetual motion machines, but
21:12:08 <alise> :P
21:12:09 <Vorpal> we can't design life, but it could evolve to have food
21:12:16 <alise> for instance
21:12:22 <alise> if you don't have an infinite energy generator in you
21:12:25 <alise> you have one less weak point
21:12:29 <alise> and you'll probably be a lot smallre
21:12:31 <alise> smaller
21:12:31 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, getting an eternal glider stream is *trivial*.
21:12:33 <alise> if you rely on food
21:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Even with ultra-sparse streams.
21:13:14 <Sgeo> So, to solve their overcrowding problem once they're intelligent, they build ships?
21:13:20 <Sgeo> Instead of fighting, like they want to?
21:13:31 <Vorpal> err
21:13:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a matter of a reflector and a stream splitter.
21:13:38 <Vorpal> Sgeo, humans still fight
21:13:56 <Sgeo> They may not ever decide it's wrong to kill
21:14:23 <alise> humanity still hasn't
21:14:41 <Sgeo> s/alise/DebbieDowner/
21:14:50 <alise> DebbieActuallyRealer
21:15:06 <Vorpal> what?
21:15:14 <Vorpal> who is debbie?
21:16:34 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Downer
21:16:49 <alise> The character's name is a slang phrase which refers to someone who frequently adds bad news and negative feelings to a gathering, thus bringing down the mood of everyone around them. Dratch's character would usually appear at social gatherings and interrupt the conversation to voice negative opinions and pronouncements. She was especially concerned about the rate of Feline AIDS, a subject that she would bring up on more than one occasion.
21:16:52 <alise> obviously it predates that, but
21:16:57 <alise> couldn't get a better link at a pinch for the slang
21:17:29 <Vorpal> hm
21:17:58 <Sgeo> I didn't realize it was a slang term >.>
21:18:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, incidentally, I don't think murder will be very easy once small-scale self-sufficiency evolves.
21:18:34 <Sgeo> Attobombs!
21:18:49 <Sgeo> I seem to be obsessed
21:19:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Consider that all easy methods of killing people involve disrupting their internal supply apparatus.
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21:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover> If each cell has a mitochondrion producing an unlimited glider stream, there *is* no internal supply chain.
21:19:46 -!- augur has joined.
21:19:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Simple: Obliterate the cells.
21:20:01 <Sgeo> Kill the mitochondrion
21:20:03 <alise> Fire out a ton of fucking gliders.
21:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, sparse sparse sparse
21:20:15 <alise> And since this is at a pretty large scale: A TON OF FUCKING GLIDERS.
21:20:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Or, if you don't mind suicide:
21:20:31 <alise> Simply walk right in to them.
21:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> In which case your firing mechanism is so dense it's an easy target.
21:20:39 <alise> There's no force stopping that, unlike in real life.
21:20:49 <alise> You can pass right through them -- and destroy both your internal systems.
21:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, another thing: how does movement work?
21:21:06 <alise> Shiply.
21:21:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Gemini-esque replication?
21:21:19 <alise> Who knows?
21:21:33 <alise> Omg, that would be cool, having two identical intelligent lifeforms existing at one point, then one killing the other.
21:21:48 <alise> And the other submitting to it.
21:22:32 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
21:22:40 <SgeoN1> Everything froze
21:24:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:24:25 <SgeoN1> So there'd be a quantum of movement?
21:24:35 <alise> elaborate :P
21:25:26 <SgeoN1> Can't easily duplicate yourself from current position to current position +0.5
21:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> That comes with discreteness.
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21:26:24 <alise> it is possible they'd be gradual spaceships
21:26:33 <Sgeo> But it's discreteness at a different scale
21:26:34 <alise> basically stretching a bit to the right, yet still staying stable
21:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> As far as movement goes, I'd assume either fixed lifeforms or UC replicators.
21:26:38 <alise> then shrinking and lobbing off your end
21:26:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. a UC replicator.
21:26:56 <alise> like single-celled organisms do
21:27:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: uc replicator? i doubt that
21:27:19 <alise> they'd surely have an optimised way of just moving into a new version of themselves
21:27:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. construct copy, then destroy original.
21:27:24 <alise> well right
21:27:27 <Sgeo> Maybe they're naturally stationary, but eventually build ships that allow movement
21:27:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Not UC based, of course.
21:27:36 <alise> not sure lifeforms would be TC, but anyway
21:27:38 <Phantom_Hoover> But the same principle.
21:27:43 <alise> if you ask me, the stretch-and-shrink one is the coolest
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21:27:54 <alise> imagine copy/pasting some additional columns of a lifeform and having it still work stably!
21:28:02 <alise> and then just having the end blow itself up
21:28:06 <alise> *that* would be *amazingly cool*
21:28:18 <Sgeo> What would be cool is communication *cries*
21:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, reminds me of some experiments I read about.
21:28:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume you mean that the organism is <>, and we make it <=>.
21:28:50 <alise> Sgeo: how do you know they'll even care about whether god exists or not?
21:28:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sort of, i was thinking something even cooler
21:29:12 <Sgeo> Why should they have to care?
21:29:30 <Sgeo> They might want answers to questions of science
21:29:39 <alise> it's <,'^":> and we make it, say, <,'^"::> then .<'^"::> (where . is blank space), then it morphs back into .<,'^":>
21:29:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ^
21:29:42 <Sgeo> We can answer attoscientific questions
21:29:52 <alise> of course, if all the ,'^":s are the same, you don't even have to morph
21:29:56 <alise> Sgeo: they have no reason to believe us.
21:30:10 <Sgeo> Maybe we could provide experiments
21:30:23 <Sgeo> Or, in fact, demonstrate something that they can't build themselves
21:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's very reminiscent of some embryology experiments.
21:31:04 <Sgeo> We'd have to learn their science before doing anything too crazy
21:31:07 <fizzie> For the hhgttg books, we had a bot-driven competition game where it spewed out 5 lines of text from one of the books, and the user who said fastestly which book it was from got a point.
21:31:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: see, i'm a genius
21:31:32 <alise> Sgeo: this is bullshit
21:31:35 <alise> Sgeo: how do they know we're not lying?
21:31:41 <alise> why would they trust us?
21:31:52 <alise> how do they know they're not just reading shit into our messages, that it's actually natural phenomena?
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21:32:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, let's suppose we managed to get across the way of simulating the GoL to them after they'd built the LGC.
21:32:10 <Sgeo> Ok, that last point is very, very significant I guess
21:32:24 <Sgeo> Maybe we could act like a supersmart one of them
21:32:28 <Sgeo> Send off the same signals
21:32:30 <alise> then we'd be Einstein.
21:32:34 <alise> not God
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21:32:39 <alise> and they might still hate us.
21:32:41 <Sgeo> Except able to ... bleh
21:32:42 <alise> they might still question us.
21:32:46 <alise> they might still "kill" us.
21:32:48 <alise> like JESUS
21:32:59 <alise> science, pronounced "sins"
21:33:06 <alise> the great thing is i can see how science would be pronounced like that
21:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> They could see that the model is working, and at least get a huge leap in technological progress.
21:33:16 <alise> sci = si, en = n, ce = s
21:33:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they can figure out that stuff themselves
21:33:37 <alise> also, way to kill the sense of achievement and progress
21:33:38 <Sgeo> Maybe they can't
21:33:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, indeed.
21:33:42 <Sgeo> Maybe they can't
21:33:45 <alise> "what's the point of research? they can just tell us."
21:33:53 <Sgeo> Hmm, that's true
21:33:53 <alise> Sgeo: if they can't figure it out
21:33:55 <alise> they can't test it
21:33:57 <alise> well
21:33:58 <alise> almost certainly
21:34:05 <alise> (if they can't figure it out but can test it then they just can't understand it)
21:34:08 <alise> (so it's pointless telling them anyway)
21:34:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Although we might run a cosy attoscale manufacturing industry.
21:34:18 <alise> but yeah, killing their scientific drive is a very bad idea
21:34:19 <Sgeo> We might not be able to prove Riemann's hypothesis, but if someone gave us a proof, we could check it
21:34:25 <alise> haven't you read TMoPI? :P
21:34:25 <Phantom_Hoover> There are various things only we could synthesise.
21:34:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "oh, yeah, we really want a garden of eden pattern please"
21:34:36 <alise> hey
21:34:40 <alise> that's a proof that not everything is synthesisable
21:34:43 <alise> gardens of eden aren't
21:34:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but the synthesis question doesn't apply to everything
21:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It applies to stable circuitry.
21:36:06 <Sgeo> We'd be unable to answer many questions of things higher than attoscience
21:36:10 <alise> the lightspeed telegraph would totally fuck them up
21:36:13 <alise> "WHY IS THIS POSSIBLY WHYYYY"
21:36:16 <alise> *POSSIBLE
21:36:30 <Sgeo> alise, great evidence for our claims
21:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, boring!
21:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Just have a puppet magic man who sells attocircuits.
21:37:17 <Sgeo> What of attobombs?
21:37:22 * Sgeo wants to make an attobomb
21:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Attotech is *extremely* unstable.
21:37:36 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Maybe they're naturally stationary, but eventually build ships that allow movement <-- since Life has no relativity, a pattern cannot just be put inside a moving ship to move it. i think they'd at most be using ships as shields against the surroundings while they do the movement themselves. either that or they would use replication in a star trek transportery way
21:37:43 <alise> Sgeo: not really
21:37:49 <alise> lightspeed communication is possible in this universe :P
21:37:57 <Sgeo> BRB
21:38:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Equivalent to a single photon destroying things.
21:38:26 <alise> spacefillers would be fun though
21:38:31 <alise> natural disasters
21:38:32 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, we can manufacture ash shielding for them
21:38:38 <alise> very fast, too, from their perspective
21:38:48 <Phantom_Hoover> And that is completely unsynthesisable.
21:39:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Spacefillers are hopelessly fragile.
21:39:08 <alise> Indeed.
21:39:11 <alise> But we can manufacture them.
21:39:12 <Phantom_Hoover> As are dense agars in general.
21:39:13 <alise> MWAHAHAHAHA
21:39:21 <alise> FEEL OUR WRATH
21:39:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it'd have some interesting effects.
21:39:38 <Sgeo> If they haven't discovered the telegraph yet...
21:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> More like a firework than a bomb, though.
21:39:44 <alise> the best thing is
21:39:47 <alise> it'd just look like a black hole to them
21:39:55 <alise> no spaceship of any kind could come back
21:39:57 <alise> except at the edges, i guess
21:40:08 <Sgeo> Are those things synthesizable?
21:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> It would grow for a while and smash into a glider, then throw off a huge wave of gliders as the agar burns.
21:40:11 <alise> where looking at it would just make you see black too
21:40:14 <alise> except it'd stop expanding
21:40:15 <alise> that's right
21:40:19 <alise> LOOKING AT THE CORNER would stop it expanding
21:40:23 <alise> as your vision-ship destroys the mechanism
21:40:25 <alise> and doesn't come back
21:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Looking at the sides would do the same.
21:40:37 <alise> ha true
21:40:38 <alise> that's awesome
21:40:39 <Sgeo> If it hit someone, could it kill them?
21:40:45 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
21:40:53 <alise> Sgeo: only if they're very unresilient.
21:41:06 <Sgeo> We don't know how resiliant life is
21:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It would be destroyed before it got large enough to give off a very large pulse.
21:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, yes, we do.
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21:41:21 <Sgeo> They may grow up in a universe where there are no stray gliders
21:41:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they could synthesise a spacefiller by accident
21:41:41 <alise> that is
21:41:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is also one which can't support life.
21:41:43 <oerjan> you'd think unresilient life would soon be evolved away
21:41:43 <alise> omg
21:41:48 <Sgeo> I said stray
21:41:48 <alise> they could ACTUALLY HAVE an LHC apocalypse
21:41:54 <alise> they collide a bunch of shit
21:41:58 <alise> it goes chaotic
21:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, FFS SPACEFILLERS AREN'T A THREAT.
21:42:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i know that
21:42:14 <alise> i meant a non-spacefiller threat
21:42:25 <alise> their lhc could literally produce a killing machine
21:42:28 <alise> this is *awesome*
21:42:49 <Sgeo> Evil madman with attomanufacturing builds seedship that, at some distance, synthesizes spacefiller
21:42:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I assume they wouldn't want to fire massive glider waves.
21:43:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: all in the name of science
21:43:05 <alise> why call it attotech?
21:43:07 <alise> It's nanotech.
21:43:08 <Phantom_Hoover> They'd want to collide single gliders and probe what comes off.
21:43:11 <alise> It's literally what we call nanotech.
21:43:14 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no. Nano is too small.
21:43:20 <alise> No it isn't.
21:43:26 <Sgeo> nano is too big
21:43:27 <alise> Our nanotech is bigger than what they'd consider attotech.
21:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> *large
21:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:43:35 <alise> you're both using it to mean different things
21:43:38 <alise> you stupid people
21:43:41 <Phantom_Hoover> This is proton-scale.
21:43:42 <alise> Sgeo is using it to mean what we look at
21:43:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover is using it to mean the size of the people
21:43:52 <alise> not protons
21:43:53 <alise> life has no protons
21:43:53 <Sgeo> He is?
21:43:56 <alise> GoL cells are more like atoms
21:43:56 <alise> imo
21:44:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Not for the Lifeforms
21:44:18 <alise> yes for the lifeforms
21:44:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Atoms would be constellations of still-lifes.
21:44:23 <alise> they just won't develop subatomic physics
21:44:25 <alise> because it wouldn't exist
21:44:40 <alise> GoL cells interact in more complex ways than protons, imo
21:44:46 <alise> well ignoring how fucked up protons are in our world
21:45:09 <Sgeo> If we explained b3s23, they might realize how SIMPLE it is
21:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, no
21:45:15 <Sgeo> That might be enough to get them to believe us
21:45:23 <Sgeo> hmm
21:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Not unless they built a simulator of themselves.
21:46:00 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd be their model for particle physics, but not for macroscopic interactions.
21:46:32 <alise> yeah
21:46:35 <alise> biologists don't use quarks as a model
21:46:36 <alise> :P
21:46:40 <Phantom_Hoover> For the same reason we use Newtonian mechanics for most things.
21:48:31 <Sgeo> Suppose we discover that they do accidentally create an LHC-Apocolypse
21:48:34 <Sgeo> Do we intervene?
21:50:00 <alise> it's not likely we could
21:50:05 <Phantom_Hoover> There won't *be* an LHC-apocalypse.
21:50:06 <alise> we'd be running it so fast that it'd be over in seconds
21:50:16 <alise> since apocalyptic material probably runs at generation-scale
21:50:23 <alise> anyway, i don't think so
21:50:33 <alise> i don't think being the father figure helps
21:50:39 <Sgeo> We could have some software that detects potential patterns
21:50:46 <Sgeo> Pauses it when discovered
21:50:49 <alise> they would be *angry*
21:50:53 <alise> if we have that kind of power, why not give them everything?
21:51:01 <alise> and if we did give them everything, they would lose all purpose in life
21:51:07 <Sgeo> Because we're not smart enough to give them everything
21:51:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I think that if there was a destructive pattern, we'd have noticed it by now.
21:51:14 <alise> besides
21:51:17 <alise> they won't die naturally
21:51:22 <alise> so it's already close to paradise
21:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Especially, since I have pointed out innumerable times, the LSC collides single spaceships.
21:51:56 <Sgeo> You don't know what drives they have.. probably reproduction, largely
21:52:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but the Insane Large Spaceship Collider doesn't
21:52:26 <alise> Sgeo: erm, i mean rather higher level drives
21:52:34 <alise> also, evolution wouldn't go normally
21:52:37 <alise> since they *never die without a threat*
21:52:47 <alise> so they'd be evolving against danger, but...
21:52:52 <alise> I don't think they'd have nearly as big a sex drive as us
21:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, neither do bacteria.
21:53:01 <alise> but I'm talking about the drive to achieve
21:53:02 <alise> science
21:53:02 <alise> etc.
21:53:25 <alise> i hate to keep mentioning it but *giving people everything does not make them happy*
21:53:33 <alise> it makes them *extremely bored*
21:53:51 <Sgeo> Give me everything I need to be able to stay on the computer 24/7
21:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so the Singularity...?
21:54:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ...needs to be better than that.
21:54:30 <alise> If it's more intelligent than us, it will be able to grasp why we think this.
21:54:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Relevant: The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect.
21:54:58 <alise> Yes, yes, it has torture-rape in the first chapter; but it's also a very interesting portrait of a post-Singularity scenario gone wrong.
21:55:07 <Sgeo> Gone right, imo
21:55:18 <alise> Sgeo: that just means you are *severely* fucked up.
21:55:30 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
21:56:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you should read it.
21:56:44 <alise> http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/
21:56:45 <alise> http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/mopiidx.html
21:58:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, please tell me that wasn't in response to the torture-rape.
21:58:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it almost certainly wasn't.
21:58:47 <alise> (note: it's not actually rape. More a super-kink.)
21:58:52 * Phantom_Hoover breathes a sigh of relief.
21:59:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but it definitely isn't a utopia; anyway, read it, there's no point in me spoiling it all with qualifiers.
21:59:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:59:13 <alise> it's not a terribly long book
21:59:35 <Sgeo> I fail to see how it isn't a utopia
21:59:47 <alise> Sgeo: again, this only points at you having serious, serious issues.
22:00:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also, FWIW, the tone changes significantly in chapter 2.
22:00:06 <alise> (this doesn't mean that chapter 1 isn't a necessary part of the plot)
22:00:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The Culture isn't post-Singularity in the strictest sense, is it?
22:00:53 <alise> i haven't read it, but i don't think so
22:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. the Minds are extremely advanced, but still comprehensible.
22:01:08 <alise> it is probably a lot more healthy than post-TMoPI-Change.
22:01:11 <Phantom_Hoover> As Excession showed.
22:01:13 <alise> anyway, read the damn novel.
22:01:17 <alise> and thanks for the spoiler :P
22:01:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Doing so.
22:01:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, not really a spoiler.
22:03:01 * Sgeo wonders what a non-atto bomb would be like
22:03:11 <Sgeo> Besides boring
22:03:17 <alise> Sgeo: destructive.
22:03:20 <Vorpal> <alise> it makes them *extremely bored* <-- except when "everything" includes various flash games :P
22:03:40 <alise> true, dot action 2 forever plus an irc server would be a pretty good afterlife
22:03:51 <alise> just your vision with those two, you can only show one or the other or show both split-screened
22:03:56 <alise> and all you can feel is a keyboard
22:03:58 <alise> i'd sign up for that
22:04:09 <Vorpal> <alise> Yes, yes, it has torture-rape in the first chapter; but it's also a very interesting portrait of a post-Singularity scenario gone wrong. <-- what book/film/whatever?
22:04:20 <alise> http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/
22:04:21 <alise> http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/mopiidx.html
22:04:23 <Vorpal> ah
22:04:27 <alise> you can buy a dead tree version, but *eh*
22:04:28 <Vorpal> I shall avoid reading it then
22:04:28 <zzo38> How many guys wants to win a big spider by playing solitaire card?
22:04:40 <alise> Vorpal: it's not unintellectual or anything.
22:04:48 <alise> or even squicky
22:07:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:32 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:10:42 <Sgeo> I was pondering if they'd ever detect exotic spaceships from space
22:10:48 <Sgeo> (in the random soup universe)
22:11:05 <Sgeo> But such things would come about so rarely, and would tend to be destroyed on their way...
22:11:18 <alise> random soup universe would be unlikely to get life any time soon :P
22:12:06 <Sgeo> Could they invent writing? What would it look like
22:12:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, remember what I said a while ago about advertisement to mates?
22:12:44 <Sgeo> Vaguely
22:13:24 <alise> <Sgeo> Could they invent writing? What would it look like
22:13:29 <alise> stuff that does stuff to vision gliders.
22:13:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not impossible that making exotic ships would be used to advertise that a Lifeform had very good synthesis organs.
22:13:42 <alise> or if we have a sun model, stuff that does stuff to the light-ships
22:13:51 <alise> lawl, synthesis organs
22:13:56 <alise> "Wanna synthesise, baby?"
22:14:01 * Sgeo was thinking more about natural exotic spaceships
22:14:11 <Sgeo> To help them work out more of the laws of physics
22:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, more like hands in general.
22:14:25 <alise> why am I reading TMoPI again...
22:14:39 * Sgeo kills alise
22:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, well, they might get the occasional exotic from space.
22:15:29 <Sgeo> But how rarely would exotics even form in space? And survive to hit the area where life is
22:15:33 * Phantom_Hoover wonders where that soup catalogue was.
22:15:50 <alise> unless we start from a big bang scenario,
22:15:58 <alise> it is unlikely that there will be anything interesting in space.
22:16:01 <alise> haha imagine being the space agency
22:16:06 <alise> "Now... we will venture into the blackness."
22:16:08 <alise> ten years later
22:16:11 <alise> "We went there. It's black."
22:16:21 <Sgeo> It's a solution to overcrowding!
22:16:56 <Sgeo> In a soup scenario, there may be valuable attotechnology in space
22:17:03 <Sgeo> Discovering it would be a challenge though
22:17:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, no.
22:17:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Try slinging a glider at the Turing Machine in Golly's collection.
22:17:41 <Slereah> Don't do it!
22:17:45 <Slereah> It will destroooooy it!
22:17:47 <alise> <Sgeo> In a soup scenario, there may be valuable attotechnology in space
22:17:52 <alise> like abraham lincoln's head, too.
22:17:56 <alise> will never be found.
22:17:59 <alise> well, okay, could be found
22:18:03 <alise> but i think they'd get bored after a while
22:18:06 <alise> even as immortals
22:18:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, http://www.conwaylife.com/soup/
22:18:41 <Sgeo> Are you saying it would be destroyed quickly?
22:18:41 <alise> If we just fill infinite space with true randomness, the utopian civilisation exists somewhere, right from the start. :)
22:18:52 <alise> Sgeo: no, i'm saying getting ahold of it would take a journey
22:18:54 <alise> and a journey would take too long
22:19:03 -!- jcp has joined.
22:19:12 <Sgeo> And they'd have no way of knowing where to journey to
22:19:17 <Sgeo> (Unless we told them >.>)
22:19:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, that census doesn't actually *have* any spaceships outside of the glider and main series.
22:19:49 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/soup/img/obj73851.png long integral, also known as "S"
22:19:53 <alise> stupid name :P
22:19:55 <alise> (long integral that is)
22:20:18 <alise> i think Sgeo just has a really strong desire to play god and curse poor sentient beings with his warped version of paradise
22:20:49 <Sgeo> I'm not giving them paradise. I don't know enough of their science
22:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, averting the apocalypse would be worthwhile since we don't want to lose the whole simulation.
22:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> But there is no small apocalyptic pattern, so.
22:22:11 <Sgeo> apocalpyse-detection heuristics!
22:22:40 <alise> i'm pretty sure they have nothing like an atomic bomb
22:22:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, did you know that Gosper guns can be chained?
22:22:45 <alise> cells are too weak and unstable
22:22:55 <alise> either it's big and slow enough for them to disarm it, or it's harmless
22:22:59 <Sgeo> If a number of lifeforms started dying in a circular fashion...
22:23:25 <Sgeo> in b36s23 the replicator...
22:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover> So you can pretty easily get an arbitrarily large number of p30 columns very closely spaced.
22:23:58 <Sgeo> Would probably be formed soon enough to prevent intelligent life from forming
22:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> If it hits something, it would be... very destructive.
22:24:39 <Sgeo> The replicator, or the chained Gosper guns?
22:24:57 <zzo38> You won't believe the creativity of a student in a test situation. For example, one of the abbreviations was "fax," which *really* stands for "facsimile." However, various Comp 4'ers said it stood for:
22:25:03 <zzo38> - Fiber-optic Aided Xeroxing
22:25:08 <zzo38> - Frequency Automatic X-rays
22:25:12 <zzo38> - Fast A** Xeroxing
22:25:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: heh, imagine whoever discovers that
22:25:38 <alise> the remorse!
22:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Chained Gospers?
22:25:49 <alise> yeah
22:25:52 <alise> I am become Death, destroyer of cells.
22:26:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Did I mention that they can disintegrate easily?
22:26:25 <alise> "An incredibly unstable construction... but a deadly one."
22:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> The reactions when they hit things tend to fling gliders back up the stream.
22:26:40 <Sgeo> Evil madman takes a ship into space. Evil madmen makes the Chained Gosper device
22:27:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's weird how resilient the organisms would be.
22:27:19 <alise> Because microscopic particles are so damn *weak*.
22:27:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
22:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way that their vision and weapons both use the same mechanism.
22:28:17 <alise> We need to start a website about this stuff.
22:28:21 <alise> It's deeply interesting.
22:28:48 <alise> if we could communicate with them and tell them about general relativity and quantum mechanics
22:28:51 <alise> they'd laugh their asses off
22:28:54 <alise> "Wow, your universe is retarded."
22:29:24 <Phantom_Hoover> We could write some of it down on LifeWiki.
22:29:37 <alise> bah, it's more interesting than a few pages
22:29:50 * Sgeo helped :D
22:29:58 <Phantom_Hoover> A topic on the forum?
22:30:10 <alise> i was thinking a separate mini-site/wiki :P
22:31:04 -!- augur has joined.
22:31:05 <Sgeo> But we have COLORS
22:31:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Collaborative blog?
22:31:10 <Sgeo> We have RAINBOWS
22:31:29 <Sgeo> Although, they might have weird.. things
22:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, different properties of glider returns?
22:31:33 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:31:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: perhaps
22:31:43 <alise> can easily have a little wiki/blog combo
22:31:53 <alise> it's not so deeply interesting as to be regularly updated, but
22:33:01 <Sgeo> On their own, what models would they come up with for the creation of the Universe?
22:33:15 <alise> who says they will
22:33:26 <Sgeo> I mean, from a scientific standpoint, not from whatever ideas they evolve with
22:33:26 <alise> remember, they live forever!
22:33:34 <alise> i have a feeling religion would be a lot less prominent
22:33:46 <alise> Sgeo: probably nothing
22:33:46 <alise> i mean
22:33:49 <alise> in a sense we didn't create anything
22:33:52 <Sgeo> In practice, they're not going to live forever unless they develop a morality involving not killing eachother
22:33:52 <alise> we started at a given state
22:33:58 <alise> almost certainly a state with predecessors
22:34:02 <alise> and we started simulating
22:34:09 <alise> there's no first point in time
22:34:14 <alise> since you can extend it back to any predecessor
22:34:22 <alise> Sgeo: there's no competition for resources, really
22:34:24 <alise> so why kill?
22:34:35 <Sgeo> Competition for space
22:34:36 <Sgeo> For mates
22:34:40 <alise> (relating to this "no-creation" thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis)
22:34:44 <alise> Sgeo: there's infinite space.
22:34:45 <alise> what's the problem?
22:35:04 <Sgeo> But given a finite amount of time, only a small amount of space is accessible
22:35:08 <alise> and there's no reason that they can't fuck one after another
22:35:15 <alise> they aren't humans :P
22:35:28 <alise> Sgeo: given a finite amount of time, an arbitrary amount of space is accessible.
22:35:34 <Sgeo> So where's the evolutionary pressure?
22:35:55 <alise> there's very little.
22:35:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: you talk some more.
22:36:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, space.
22:36:10 <alise> Sgeo: it is likely we would have to populate space with evil killers.
22:36:12 <Sgeo> So they won't ever actually evolve intelligence without divine intervention?
22:36:17 <Phantom_Hoover> That's literally the only resource to fight over.
22:36:17 <alise> to give them an evolutionary sex drive
22:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Some space is better than other space.
22:36:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's unlikely
22:36:46 <Sgeo> Different sections of space could have different laws of physics!
22:36:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, corpses in the way?
22:36:49 <Sgeo> Drive everyone mad!
22:37:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: destroy them
22:37:19 <alise> also, dying is unlikely
22:37:24 <Sgeo> Sectors
22:37:30 <Sgeo> Of a certain size of cells
22:37:32 <Phantom_Hoover> A kills B.
22:37:33 <alise> i do think the best idea is to put a lot of threats in
22:37:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: how
22:37:37 <Sgeo> Sectors are given rules randomly
22:38:05 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, by firing a high-speed glider assault?
22:38:35 <Phantom_Hoover> If you can snag the brain, the target is doomed.
22:38:43 <zzo38> If there is infinite space with superluminal travel, there is no need for anyone to ever be dead or eat anything anymore. Game of Life satisfies the first, but not the second.
22:38:46 <Sgeo> Evil killers that can only be killed with attotechnology
22:39:18 * Phantom_Hoover regrets bringing up attotech in the first place.
22:39:25 <Sgeo> >.>
22:39:48 <Phantom_Hoover> The independent power supply thing is interesting, though.
22:40:02 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, by firing a high-speed glider assault?
22:40:04 <zzo38> The idea is how to figure out how to make killers non-evil somehow..... it requires a use of relative morality depending on circumstances and the universe model, and even more confusing things.....
22:40:06 <alise> why would they evolve such killing mechanisms?
22:40:09 <alise> they have nothing to fight over
22:40:16 <alise> (they don't have to fight over space unless there's corpses)
22:40:23 <alise> (and if there aren't any threats, there is no death, and thus no corpses)
22:40:31 <alise> of course, this means they'll basically *never* adapt to anything
22:40:38 <alise> which is why i think you'd have to put a bunch of natural threats
22:40:44 <alise> bastards guns that fire huge columns rapidly
22:40:47 <alise> just to force evolution to happen
22:40:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Langton's Loops?
22:40:59 <Phantom_Hoover> A cell gets surrounded pretty quickly.
22:41:03 <Sgeo> If it
22:41:04 <zzo38> Of course, you could somehow do fake superluminal travel, maybe
22:41:09 <alise> (unless you start from a big bang scenario and let threats evolve, but seriously, even with seriously dilated time nobody's that patient!)
22:41:12 <Sgeo> if it's a simple gun, could they learn to survive?
22:41:17 <zzo38> By slowing everything
22:42:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, non-sparse soup?
22:42:55 <Phantom_Hoover> So that space isn't necessarily habitable?
22:43:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: basically, an utterly chaotic initial configuration
22:43:21 <alise> and you hope it goes just right and ends up with little planets with nice aliens on them
22:43:36 <alise> this is not only incredibly unlikely with the fragility and tendency to form still life that atomic-level Life has,
22:43:37 <Sgeo> If space truly is infinite, no need to hope
22:43:40 <alise> but it is also really boring.
22:43:47 <alise> Sgeo: repeating pattern, Q.E.D.
22:43:48 <alise> also, not true
22:43:51 <alise> probability 1 != has happened
22:43:56 <alise> sure, ok, it *has* happened
22:44:07 <alise> but technically, you could get a repeating pattern generated totally randomly across infinite space :)
22:44:19 <alise> here's a *REALLY* interesting thought experiment:
22:44:34 <alise> Imagine an infinite CA space.
22:44:49 <alise> Imagine that we have filled it lazily -- i.e. not computed until we look at that place -- with randomness.
22:45:03 <alise> This randomness is the kind that has produced civilisations everywhere (just not where we're looking).
22:45:12 <alise> Somehow, we have an algorithm that can simulate one part of space and keep the rest consistent,
22:45:19 <alise> so that if we looked at another part, we'd get what the state would be at this generation.
22:45:26 <alise> Now suppose we point our camera at somewhere without civilisations.
22:45:38 <alise> If we kept looking back at a civilisation, we'd see it develop, people live, etc.; "shit happening".
22:45:47 <alise> Then we could look away, and if we look back again, it'd be the same as if we didn't look away.
22:45:55 <alise> But *they are not computed* while we are looking away.
22:46:05 <alise> Are they still conscious and alive in these periods?
22:46:21 <Sgeo> No. They have false memories implanted.
22:46:25 <alise> bullshit
22:46:26 <alise> that's metaphysical
22:46:29 <Sgeo> Arguably false
22:46:37 <alise> consciousness is a byproduct of thinking. yes?
22:46:51 <alise> otherwise you're saying it's a metaphysical entity
22:46:57 <alise> which i don't think you want to say
22:47:12 <alise> now, the snapshots we take are exactly identical whether our computer runs it or not
22:47:22 <alise> therefore, the computation is still "done"
22:47:24 <alise> the results are viewable
22:47:27 <alise> it's just not actually computed on our machines
22:47:35 <alise> therefore, they are actually conscious *despite us not computing them at all*
22:47:37 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis
22:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Hashlife.
22:48:44 <Phantom_Hoover> That's basically how it works.
22:48:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ex-fucking-actly.
22:48:53 <alise> *xactly.
22:48:59 <alise> And this is *so fucking cool*.
22:49:14 <alise> It actually *manages to legitimatise some form of Platonism*.
22:49:39 <Phantom_Hoover> :D
22:49:52 <alise> Say you simulate a universe on a computer. Obviously this is just repeated application of a function of some sort. You're not doing anything unique. The initial state, and the answer to each successive application of the function, is a fact, whether you compute it or not.
22:49:57 <alise> Therefore: what does it matter if you compute it or not?
22:50:04 <alise> Your computation isn't "privileged"; it doesn't GIVE an answer.
22:50:08 <alise> The answer is already there.
22:50:15 <alise> You have made a camera. But you have not created a universe.
22:50:18 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:50:24 <alise> Whether you simulate it or not, the fact that the function has answers means *the universe already exists*.
22:50:33 <alise> Of course this is all unprovable philosophical twaddle.
22:50:37 <alise> But it's also beautiful.
22:50:58 <alise> It's like the simulation argument, except you say "why the fuck do we need to be simulated at all?".
22:51:08 <Sgeo> Does this also imply that all self-consistent fiction is true?
22:51:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:51:27 <alise> Not true in our universe, but... in a way, yes.
22:51:36 <alise> The way I interpret it is closer to "*we* aren't even really 'true'".
22:51:50 <alise> If we're just Platonic, not-actually-changing mathematical structures...
22:52:00 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
22:52:04 <alise> Then although that function is a "fact" about time in that structure,
22:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Not voluntarily.
22:52:09 <alise> We're not really "real" at all.
22:52:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: See you.
22:52:22 <Sgeo> We're real relative to us
22:52:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Bye :(
22:52:38 <alise> !!
22:52:39 <Sgeo> Bye Phantom_Hoover
22:52:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover:
22:52:40 <alise> Sexyloop[11] (2007): Sexyloop is a modification of Evoloop in which collisions often result in transfer of genetic material between loops. This increases diversity in evolution of new species of loops.
22:52:44 <alise> Evoloop[9] (1999): An extension of the SDSR loop, Evoloop is capable of interaction with neighboring loops as well as of evolution. Often, the greatest selection pressure in a colony of Evoloops is the competition for space, and natural selection favors the smallest functional loop present. Further studies demonstrated more complexity than originally thought in the Evoloop system.[10]
22:52:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Bye. ^^^ ZOMGZ
22:52:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't have any philosophical discussions without me!
22:52:54 <alise> Competition for space.
22:53:01 <alise> You're fucking right.
22:53:04 <alise> Genius bastard.
22:53:13 <Phantom_Hoover> (Sexyloop is annoying, since I can't find the spec for it.
22:53:32 <Sgeo> Now, to make enemies to increase pressure for intelligence
22:53:42 <Ilari> If infinite 2D space with 2-state cells is filled randomly and then Game of life rules are appiled to it, what happens?
22:53:46 <Sgeo> Wait, that's not neede
22:54:33 <Ilari> It would not contain all possible subconfigurations...
22:55:43 <Ilari> Because there would be beth-zero cells and GOL has beth-one configurations...
22:56:29 <alise> Ilari: 2-state cells?
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22:56:36 <alise> oh i see
22:56:44 <Sgeo> Life that's resistant to common space debris might not necessarily be able to survive exotic ships if one happens to hit
22:56:51 <alise> Ilari: stack an infinite number of random universes on top of each other :P
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22:57:12 <Ilari> alise: Not enough unless number of universes is at least beth-one.
22:57:24 <Ilari> Since beth-zero + beth-zero = beth-zero.
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22:58:01 <alise> Ilari: true, it'd be beth-zero^2
22:58:02 <alise> hmm
22:58:22 <Ilari> Actually, beth-zero * beth-zero = beth-zero.
22:58:36 <Sgeo> Suppose a spacefiller does happen to be nearby
22:58:43 <Sgeo> It degrades due to debris
22:58:54 <Sgeo> But couldn't that flood the area with gliders?
22:59:06 <Ilari> Here's fun one. Aleph-two * beth-one.
22:59:22 <Sgeo> What's gimel-zero?
22:59:28 <Ilari> Does that equal aleph two or beth one? :-)
23:00:46 <Ilari> I think the answer is that its independent of ZFC.
23:01:55 <Ilari> It would be fun if P=NP? was shown to be independent in turing machine model.
23:02:52 <Sgeo> In an infinite soup, surely gliders would continue to hit a given space
23:03:10 <Sgeo> But would lessen in intensive, as gliders from further away end up hitting more debris along the way
23:05:56 <Ilari> What are CA rules with two slashes in them (in golly)?
23:15:24 <Sgeo> They'd have their own cosmic background radiation
23:16:22 <zzo38> Does gimel-zero mean something?
23:18:40 <ais523> ooh, same spam again from a different From address, this time with the subject "HTML !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
23:19:15 <Sgeo> zzo38, well, aleph and beth are letters of the Hewbrew alphabet
23:19:17 <Sgeo> bet?
23:19:36 <Gregor> ais523: Can'tcha just FEEL the HTML?
23:19:55 <oerjan> Ilari: Aleph-two * beth-one = Aleph-two + beth-one = max(Aleph-two, beth-one) but beth-one can be almost any aleph
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23:20:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: I know that aleph and beth and gimel are letters of the Hebrew alphabet
23:20:52 <oerjan> if a gimel sequence exists, it's far more obscure than the others
23:20:57 <zzo38> That still doesn't tell me what gimel is used for in mathematics
23:21:17 <Sgeo> Well, what's the difference between aleph-zero and beth-zero?
23:21:26 <Sgeo> Or aleph-N and beth-N in general?
23:21:32 <Sgeo> Extrapolate, you've got gimel-N
23:21:38 <oerjan> aleph-zero = beth-zero but from there the definitions are different
23:21:56 <zzo38> Sgeo: I think there is no difference between aleph-zero and beth-zero? But I don't know how aleph-N and beth-N will differ.
23:22:13 <zzo38> The continuum hypothesis means that aleph and beth might be the same, I think?
23:22:20 <oerjan> aleph-N is the Nth infinite well-orderable cardinal
23:22:26 <zzo38> But maybe not? There is no way to tell if it is same or not?
23:22:44 <oerjan> beth-(N+1) = 2^beth-N, and limits go to limits
23:23:11 <oerjan> the generalized continuum hypothesis says aleph-N = beth-N for all ordinals N
23:23:29 <oerjan> (with axiom of choice, every cardinal is an aleph)
23:24:10 <oerjan> however there are models of ZFC where the beths can be chosen _very_ freely among the alephs
23:25:11 <oerjan> there are some restrictions which i don't remember, but i think e.g. beth-one can be aleph-one, aleph-two, aleph-three and possibly any aleph
23:25:52 <zzo38> Is there a restriction that if beth-one is aleph-five, then beth-two cannot be aleph-four?
23:25:53 <oerjan> i do not recall ever seeing a definition for gimel-N
23:26:10 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, both sequences are increasing
23:26:33 <zzo38> oerjan: I have not seen a definition like that either
23:26:57 <oerjan> beth-omega must be the limit of the lower beths, so that's not free to choose
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23:29:58 * oerjan wikipedes
23:30:07 <Ilari> Is there model where beth one equals aleph two but beth two equals aleph three?
23:30:24 <zzo38> Ilari: That was going to be my next question, too.
23:31:33 <Sgeo> Life might not be immortal: It might evolve to depend on the cosmic background radiation
23:31:49 <oerjan> i _think_ but i'm trying to find some definite statement
23:31:52 <Ilari> Actually, probably not as it would imply that two sets of different size would have power set of same size...
23:31:53 <oerjan> *+so
23:32:02 <Sgeo> Which _will_, eventually, die down. Not come to a halt, but come at lower levels than life needs for sustainability
23:32:19 <oerjan> Ilari: um how so?
23:32:28 <zzo38> I design a font where the character in position 'n' is the representation of '\n'
23:32:45 <oerjan> oh aleph-two and aleph-one
23:32:58 <zzo38> And so on for all of the other lowercase letters except 'x'
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23:35:23 <Ilari> Obiviously set having more elements has at least as large power set. Thus powerset of aleph one would be at least as large as powerset of aleph zero (which is aleph two in this case) but no larger than powerset of aleph two (which would happen to be aleph three). There's nothing in between, so the powerset would have to equal one or other in size.
23:36:26 <oerjan> "A recent result of Carmi Merimovich shows that, for each n>=1, it is consistent with ZFC that for each k, 2^k is the nth successor of k."
23:36:47 <zzo38> Do you think such a definition as this is useful in TeX? \def\defnoexpand#1{\def#1{\noexpand#1\noexpand}}
23:37:29 <oerjan> that means you can have beth-one = aleph-two and beth-two = aleph-four, at least
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23:38:13 <oerjan> (n is finite here)
23:40:42 <Sgeo> What would be even more WTF to them: Knightship movement
23:40:50 <Ilari> Assuming that powerset of A is strictly larger than powerset of B if A is strictly larger than B, then there must be at least as many cardinailities between two consequtive beths as there was between previous beths...
23:41:41 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis#The_generalized_continuum_hypothesis
23:43:22 <zzo38> But I would like some suggestions how the representation of '\n' '\r' '\e' and so on should be drawn
23:43:40 <oerjan> Ilari: hm i don't think any of the examples in that section violate your hypothesis
23:44:07 <oerjan> otoh i would not bet on it being true
23:45:06 <Ilari> Actually, Hmm... that page has formula that says that strictly larger set can have equally sized powerset...
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23:46:41 <oerjan> oh the second last inequality in that section? i guess that sort of implies it's not _known_ to be impossible, at least
23:47:27 <oerjan> on the assumption that inequality was added by someone who knew, at least - this _is_ wikipedia after all
23:47:35 <oerjan> *that that
23:49:00 <oerjan> oh...
23:49:14 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easton%27s_theorem
23:49:45 <oerjan> that's what i vaguely must have remembered when saying there were some restrictions
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23:52:43 <oerjan> aleph_omega is the first non-regular infinite cardinal, says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_cardinal
23:52:44 <Ilari> Two sets that are not isomorphic but have isomorphic powersets is somewhat mind-bending...
23:53:46 <Ilari> Obiviously those can't exist unless GCH is false...
23:55:18 <oerjan> i _think_ easton's theorem applies to the beth-one = aleph-two, beth-two = aleph-three case
23:55:59 <oerjan> or hm
23:56:45 <oerjan> we want G(0) = 2, G(2) = 3
23:59:08 <oerjan> seems to me to work
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