←2010-09-27 2010-09-28 2010-09-29→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:03:42 <Gregor> BAHAHAHAHAHA
00:03:56 <Gregor> Man Buys Segway Inc., Dies on Segway
00:04:19 <alise> yep :D
00:04:27 <alise> just imagine though
00:04:31 <alise> driving off a cliff on a Segway
00:04:35 <alise> 1) how the hell do you manage to do that?!
00:04:51 <Gregor> Apparently he died after he "plunged 30 feet off a rocky cliff"
00:05:07 <Gregor> So, now Segways will have a warning label: "WARNING: This device does not protect against gravity."
00:05:18 <alise> how stupid do you have to be like
00:05:25 <alise> you're near the edge of a cliff - firstly why are you there -
00:05:29 <alise> secondly how do you keep leaning forwards to the edge
00:05:31 <alise> and then not stop leaning forwards
00:05:35 <alise> and freaking lean off the edge of the cliff
00:06:13 <alise> Gregor: Can I netcat you something for ultra-temporary storage on codu? :P
00:06:16 <alise> It's 500 ks
00:07:03 <Gregor> alise: Why would you need that? Just transfer it guest-to-host
02:09:33 -!- clog has joined.
02:09:33 -!- clog has joined.
02:09:44 <Quadlex> Are elves sensitive to chromium kinda like humans who can't eat Gluten?
02:09:56 <Quadlex> "Oh, no lembas for me please, I've got Coealiac"
02:10:14 <oerjan> Quadlex: iron, usually. but Gregor is a special case.
02:10:15 <Gregor> No, they're like humans that are sensitive to chromium X-P
02:10:31 <Quadlex> Or is it like jews and pork?
02:10:39 <Quadlex> oerjan: Ahh, I see. So he's a freak then:P
02:11:08 <Quadlex> Girls SAY they want a sensitive guy, but they get disgusted the first time you cry when Sesamie Street is over for the day
02:11:21 <oerjan> very freaky. i hear he's got a foot picture.
02:11:37 <Gregor> And you can see it, if you'd like (to vomit)
02:14:16 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:01:02 <Quadlex> A foot picture?
03:02:21 * Sgeo is way too tired to think properly
03:02:37 <oerjan> Sgeo: logic is overrated anyhow
03:09:17 -!- lament has joined.
03:10:55 <Sgeo> Question: Did I get noticably more hyper after, say, summer 2009?
03:11:37 <Gregor> Is that when you stopped taking the pills?
03:11:56 <Sgeo> As a matter of fact, yes
03:12:03 <Sgeo> Literally
03:12:06 <Gregor> JOKE: RUINED
03:12:39 <Gregor> In that case: Is that when you developed a hyperbroad Long Iiiiiiiiiisland accent? :P
03:14:30 -!- Kordalien has joined.
03:19:42 <Quadlex> Sgeo: Methylphenidate?
03:20:41 <Sgeo> Tried that. Couldn't swallow it
03:20:58 <Sgeo> Um, in Concerta form
03:21:33 <Quadlex> Ah, OK.
03:21:37 <Quadlex> I recently had to go back on it
03:21:42 <Quadlex> Stupid... work.
03:26:56 -!- augur has joined.
03:39:01 <Gregor> I just did a search of cars for the maximum fuel economy.
03:39:06 <Gregor> They also had a list by MINIMUM fuel economy.
03:39:10 <Gregor> What I was expecting: SUVs.
03:39:13 <Gregor> What I found: sports cars.
03:39:23 <Gregor> WTF? Sports cars get bad mileage? Why do they even exist?
03:40:12 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Murciélago How can a car this streamlined get 13MPG /highway/? SUVs get 13MPG /city/? WTFWTFWTF
03:44:29 <Quadlex> It has to carry the passenger's ego
03:44:41 <lament> Gregor: it accelerates really quickly
03:44:50 <Gregor> Quadlex: Ahhhhhhh of course.
03:44:59 <Gregor> lament: But surely it doesn't need all that power to MAINTAIN SPEED ON A HIGHWAY X_X
03:45:11 <Gregor> That is, it doesn't just waste energy
03:45:18 <lament> yes it does
03:46:25 <lament> presumably in order to accelerate really quickly you have to design the engine in such a way that it's minimum power output is still really high
03:46:40 <lament> it has a ton of cylinders and stuff
03:46:57 <Gregor> Bleh.
03:47:01 <lament> also, what speed is that? the speed limit, or the usual speed of a lambo driver?
03:47:03 <Gregor> People who drive these should be shot.
03:51:19 <lament> Gregor: you'll love this site http://www.wreckedexotics.com/
04:12:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
04:19:33 -!- hailtothethief has joined.
04:27:49 -!- sshc_ has joined.
04:27:54 -!- hailtothethief has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:30:34 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:42:21 -!- hailtothethief has joined.
05:12:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
05:14:31 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
05:16:06 -!- augur has joined.
05:34:25 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
06:00:05 -!- augur has joined.
06:07:01 <coppro> poll: what's the most ridiculous thing you've ever seen printed in hardcopy
06:11:38 -!- sftp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:12:02 <Sgeo> "The safe times [for sex] are the week before and the week of ovulation." [Note: I only saw that in a book of stupidest things ever said]
06:34:51 -!- webquint has joined.
06:34:57 <Sgeo> So, in the comments of one of Diaspora's page's statuses, I mention the security issues and post a link
06:35:24 <Sgeo> "@[my name], its the internet, security on here isnt real"
06:35:36 <Sgeo> (Note: THat's not one of the devs)
06:35:45 <Sgeo> I hope
06:36:23 <coppro> Sgeo: the dumbest thing I've ever seen in print is the GCC 3.4 manual. Can you top that?
06:36:52 <Sgeo> What's bad about the GCC 3.4 manual?
06:37:04 <coppro> it's thick
06:37:18 <coppro> also someone went through and nitpicked all the errors
06:37:40 <coppro> and someone got a GCC dev to sign it (he wrote "et al." after Richard Stallman on the cover).
06:37:47 <coppro> the dedication was "get a life you dumb fucks"
06:43:16 <Gregor> laaaaaaawl at signing it by writing "et al."
06:44:23 <coppro> Gregor: he also signed it properly inside
06:44:32 <coppro> there are some other gems
06:44:46 <coppro> I've been told that at one point he wrote 'you missed one', but I haven't actually seen it
06:46:13 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:46:39 <coppro> <3 the CSC
06:47:08 -!- cal153 has joined.
06:57:15 -!- tombom has joined.
07:04:17 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
07:37:03 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:38:27 -!- myndzi has joined.
07:41:10 -!- Slereah has joined.
07:41:12 <Quadlex> Blog updated, my work on the internet is done
07:45:26 -!- webquint has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:50:42 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:11:06 -!- atrapado has joined.
08:33:08 -!- Kordalien has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
08:56:23 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
08:57:53 -!- Ilari has joined.
09:22:20 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
09:30:02 -!- wareya_ has joined.
09:33:03 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
10:14:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:04:22 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:14:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:57:40 -!- webquint has joined.
12:58:59 <webquint> To whomever was asking about quines that execute themselves into infinity, I found a really cute example: kbde.sourceforge.net/kbde/man/kbde.1.html
12:59:24 <webquint> "kbde --key=ArrowU --key=Enter --background Under bash shell will do something cool."
13:00:46 <oerjan> heh
13:05:10 <quintopia> cheaty, but hilarious
13:08:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
13:08:43 -!- nooga has joined.
13:22:47 -!- webquint has quit (Quit: Page closed).
13:26:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:38:34 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:38:56 <ais523> hi people, I need a quick insanity check:
13:39:20 <ais523> a) does anyone know of a dynamically scoped call-by-name language? b) how insane am I to have invented/reinvented dynamically scoped lambda calculus?
13:39:41 <ais523> sample code: (\y.y)(\f.f(y(f)))
13:46:20 <Vorpal> absurd, taking the train was actually cheaper than the bus today.
13:46:35 <Vorpal> not much, but usually it is the other way around
13:49:38 <Vorpal> only downside is that with buses around here, if you change to another one then the cost of the first travel is substracted from the second travel. And due to that not working on trains, the total ended up a tiny amount more expensive with the train. But at least I didn't have to wait an hour (the first bus was late, so I missed the connection). And I arrived home before that other bus would have got me
13:49:38 <Vorpal> home.
13:51:36 -!- ais523_ has joined.
13:51:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
13:51:41 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
13:51:47 <Vorpal> ais523_, hi, I guess you missed what I said?
13:52:02 <ais523> [13:45] <Vorpal> absurd, taking the train was actually cheaper than the bus today.
13:52:03 <ais523> [13:46] <Vorpal> not much, but usually it is the other way around
13:52:05 <ais523> is the last I saw
13:54:44 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> only downside is that with buses around here, if you change to another one then the cost of the first travel is substracted from the second travel. And due to that not working on trains, the total ended up a tiny amount more expensive with the train. But at least I didn't have to wait an hour (the first bus was late, so I missed the connection). And I arrived home before that other bus would ha
13:54:44 <Vorpal> ve got me
13:54:47 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> home.
13:54:50 <Vorpal> ais523, missed that then
13:55:16 <ais523> Vorpal: heh, here in the UK it's the opposite
13:55:28 <Vorpal> ais523, and yeah, it ended up just 5 SEK more expensive after adding in the "couldn't substract the first travel from the second"
13:55:33 <ais523> on buses, you have to pay for each bus separately, or else buy a day ticket that's more expensive but works on any number of buses
13:55:42 <Vorpal> which is iirc about 0.5 £ or such
13:55:56 <ais523> on the trains, the cost of the journey depends on the endpoints
13:55:56 <ais523> and not on the route
13:55:59 <ais523> (except in a few cases, sometimes you're banned from going via London)
13:57:07 <Vorpal> atrapado, well here it is that if you take another bus within 3 hours, of the last travel then you can discount. Inside the same zone (the city is one zone) that means 0 for the second travel. With country side busses that mean a reduced price.
13:57:18 <Vorpal> or if you go from country bus to city bus, 0 cost for second travel
13:57:25 <ais523> Vorpal: I think you mispinged
13:57:29 <Vorpal> err yes
13:57:32 <Vorpal> indeed I did
13:57:39 <Vorpal> how did that happen
13:57:41 <Vorpal> hm
13:58:38 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, I couldn't go by tain the whole way, I need to take bus to university, The station and the university are like at opposite ends of the city
13:59:09 <ais523> heh, here the station is as close to the University as it could theoretically be without being within University control
13:59:09 <Vorpal> and well, the switch to country side bus is just next to the station. Like 5 meters away actually.
13:59:17 <ais523> they share a boundary
13:59:20 <Vorpal> hm
13:59:24 <Vorpal> ais523, lucky you
13:59:29 <ais523> the station's even called "University"
13:59:34 <ais523> (amusingly, it doesn't actually say which one)
13:59:35 <Vorpal> hm
13:59:44 <ais523> but I normally take the bus, even though it doesn't go /quite/ as near
13:59:46 <Vorpal> ais523, for trains that's a bit strange
14:00:10 <ais523> it depends on where the station is, I suppose
14:00:19 <ais523> near a university and a major hospital is a rather obvious place for a station
14:00:40 <ais523> (Birmingham's large enough that it has many tens of stations, not just Birmingham New Street in the centre)
14:00:41 <Vorpal> I mean, the bus station next to the university is "Universitetet" (The University). Well I didn't travel from that one today, I went from one at the opposite side of the university. Still close
14:01:05 <Vorpal> but with city buses that isn't really a problem, two universities in one city is not likely
14:01:31 <Vorpal> ais523, hm two train stations in the university city here. One in the town I live in
14:02:40 <ais523> are you a student?
14:02:43 <Vorpal> the hospital is way away too, About half the distance between the train station and the university.. But not straight between them.
14:02:45 <Vorpal> ais523, yes
14:02:47 <Vorpal> ais523, why?
14:02:49 <ais523> I just realised I don't actually know what you do
14:02:53 <ais523> which subject?
14:02:55 <Vorpal> ais523, CS student
14:03:08 <ais523> hmm, not particularly surprising given the topic of this channel...
14:03:22 <Vorpal> ais523, except this is not "proper" CS in the classical sense but rather the more common type of CS.
14:03:34 -!- alise has joined.
14:03:36 <ais523> programming? software engineering?
14:03:38 <ais523> oh, hi alise
14:03:43 <alise> <ais523> programming? software engineering?
14:03:44 <alise> How off-topic!
14:03:47 <ais523> [13:38] <ais523> hi people, I need a quick insanity check:
14:03:48 <Vorpal> ais523, there is a lot more of that than alise would like yes
14:03:48 <ais523> [13:38] <ais523> a) does anyone know of a dynamically scoped call-by-name language? b) how insane am I to have invented/reinvented dynamically scoped lambda calculus?
14:03:50 <ais523> [13:39] <ais523> sample code: (\y.y)(\f.f(y(f)))
14:04:09 <Vorpal> ais523, what is call-by-name now again?
14:04:12 <alise> ais523: (a) not as far as I can think (b) AWESOME
14:04:21 <alise> Today's Astronomy Picture of the Day does not make an especially good wallpaper.
14:04:26 <Vorpal> ais523, that it has dynamically scoped function names?
14:04:39 <Vorpal> (in this case I mean)
14:04:40 <ais523> Vorpal: when arguments are passed via evaluating the argument when it's used, in the context of the caller
14:04:56 <alise> Vorpal: basically every argument is (\-> arg)
14:04:56 <alise> so
14:04:57 <alise> f x y
14:04:59 -!- sftp has joined.
14:05:01 <alise> is like, in normal languages,
14:05:03 <Vorpal> hm
14:05:06 <alise> f (\() -> x) (\() -> y)
14:05:19 <Vorpal> how does it differ from call-by-value or call-by-reference?
14:05:48 <ais523> e.g. int f(x,y) {x = x+1; return y;} int main() {int x = 4; return f(x, x+2);}
14:05:52 <alise> "Dude makes 1:1 scale of the Star Trek Enterprise in Minecraft" ;; IT'S THE USS ENTERPRISE NCC-1701-D STUPID
14:05:56 <ais523> would return 7 if C was call-by-name
14:06:00 <Vorpal> hm
14:06:21 <ais523> because the x = x + 1 increments x in the caller (much like call-by-reference), and then returning y uses the new value of x in the caller
14:06:31 <ais523> the second property is unique to call-by-name
14:06:33 -!- jix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:06:48 <Vorpal> ais523, ah so return y returns "x+2", and lets the caller evaluate it then?
14:07:00 <Vorpal> rather than evaluating it at call time
14:07:08 <ais523> not exactly; it gets the caller to evaluate x+2, then returns the value the caller gives it
14:07:26 <ais523> although what you mentioned would be a plausible "tail-call-by-name" optimisation, I suppose
14:07:35 <Vorpal> ais523, is this found anywhere outside esolangs?
14:07:42 <ais523> Vorpal: ALGOL 60, famously
14:07:44 <Vorpal> it sounds so absurdly awkward
14:07:48 <ais523> but it wasn't dynamically scoped
14:07:56 <Vorpal> ah that would help I guess
14:08:08 <alise> see Man or Boy test
14:08:27 <Vorpal> ais523, hm I can't think of any language like that indeed.
14:08:38 <ais523> also, in languages like Haskell, technically you could use call-by-name and you wouldn't notice because there are no side effects suitable for distinguishing by-name from by-value
14:09:04 <Vorpal> ais523, and it seems a lot harder to implement than simple straight-forward call by value.
14:09:08 <ais523> the hardware compiler I'm working on at work is call-by-name, which is why I'm thinking about it
14:09:10 <alise> Christ the Enterprise is huge.
14:09:14 <ais523> it's harder in some ways, but easier in other ways
14:09:33 <ais523> call-by-value has issues with higher-order functions, as you actually need to save their values somewhere
14:09:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:10:06 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:10:12 <Vorpal> ais523, so why anyone would do it in something like ALGOL 60 I can't understand. Weren't computer resources limited back then? So it seems like a bad decision to add the extra complexity of doing this.
14:10:18 <ais523> ugh, something seems to be randomly resetting my connection, both IRC and the web
14:10:20 <alise> Holy shit, the Enterprise is almost a fucking kilometre long.
14:10:23 <ais523> I think it's the wireless router gone mad again
14:10:28 <alise> That is just unholy.
14:10:33 <alise> Well, 642.5 m.
14:10:35 <alise> Close enough.
14:10:38 <ais523> Vorpal: computer scientists, the pure CS sort not the programming sort, like call-by-name
14:10:43 <Vorpal> alise, TNG? TOS?
14:10:53 <ais523> because you don't have to distinguish values from expressions
14:10:55 <alise> Vorpal: Enterprise-D, but they're all much the same design
14:11:03 <Vorpal> ais523, hah
14:11:05 <alise> Vorpal: algol 60 was hardly designed for the computers of the time, dude
14:11:06 <ais523> also, in call-by-name, if and while can be defined as functions
14:11:11 <alise> er wait
14:11:14 <alise> i was thinking of algol 68
14:11:15 <Vorpal> alise, enterprise-d, which series was that
14:11:19 <alise> which is probably the first language-wank ever
14:11:21 <alise> Vorpal: TNG
14:11:25 <Vorpal> alise, ah
14:11:41 <Vorpal> alise, well 642.5 m is closer to half a km than a km
14:11:47 <Vorpal> alise, still large, but not that extreme
14:11:49 <alise> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn2-d5a3r94 full-size model of Enterprise in Minecraft; http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/djs2s/dude_makes_11_scale_of_the_star_trek_enterprise/c10qj2p elaboration
14:11:50 <ais523> e.g. command while(boolean cond, command c) {if(cond){c; while(cond,c);}}
14:11:59 <alise> his version is 785 m on that dimension though; it's 22% bigger to fit minecraft characters better
14:12:03 <ais523> ("command" is typically a data type in such languages)
14:12:17 <alise> (Video narration is hilarious.)
14:12:18 <Vorpal> alise, heck, some bulk cargo trains reach over 1 km in length, Of course they are not spaceships, but still...
14:12:25 <alise> ais523: i don't think it's *popular* among CS guys
14:12:29 <Vorpal> alise, Minecraft?
14:12:29 <alise> just hilariously admired
14:12:33 <ais523> alise: hmm, perhaps
14:12:49 <ais523> at least in the field I'm working with, "Idealized Algol" and its variations are the typical stock language to work from
14:12:53 <alise> Vorpal: it's like a virtual world, except based entirely on 1 m^3 squares of different types, and you can dig and stuff
14:12:56 <Vorpal> ah
14:12:56 <ais523> it's Algol 60, adapted to remove all the features that make it practical
14:12:57 <alise> it's an open-ended sandbox game
14:13:12 <Vorpal> sounds cool
14:13:15 <alise> and it's awesome up until the point S g e o hears about it and starts obsessing, so talk very quietly
14:13:40 <alise> Vorpal: oh yeah and the gigantic world map is randomly generated
14:13:44 <Vorpal> alise, hah
14:13:46 <alise> and there are caves and mines and stuff
14:14:00 <ais523> alise: it sounds rather like Dwarf Fortress with shallower gameplay and a better interface
14:14:07 <alise> ais523: well, it's massive-multiplayer
14:14:09 <alise> for some value of massive
14:14:13 <Vorpal> <ais523> it's Algol 60, adapted to remove all the features that make it practical <-- XD
14:14:14 <alise> and also some value of how multiplayer you want
14:14:18 <alise> since you can have, like, private worlds
14:14:32 <alise> it costs (one-off though), the ooold version is free though
14:14:36 <ais523> Vorpal: I mean, syntactic sugar's nice in a real language, but you don't want it in your mathematical abstractions
14:14:44 -!- jix has joined.
14:14:55 <Vorpal> true
14:15:13 <alise> the only acceptable language is SK combinators with three bits of ram
14:15:16 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm still not sure I grok call-by-name. Maybe it isn't so awkward without dynamic scoping?
14:16:03 <alise> Vorpal: anyway, consider that the Enterprise is about *twice* the length of a *huge* cruise ship
14:16:08 <alise> plus a bit
14:16:50 <Vorpal> alise, does it fit with the expected interior size though?
14:16:51 <alise> well all cruise ships are huge
14:16:57 <alise> you know what i mean
14:17:04 <alise> Vorpal: pretty much:
14:17:05 <alise> The original Enterprise is 642.5 Meters x 467.0 Meters x 137.5 Meters. This is about 3m per deck. Sadly, with the 1m deck you have to walk on, that only leaves 2m left over for hallway space. As your character is only 1.7m tall, you will be bumping your head around a lot. I decided to make the ship 22% bigger, so I could have 4 m per deck. That puts the final size @ 785m x 570m x 168m. I made my "pit" 800x600x180 to fit all 42 decks and almost made a critica
14:17:05 <alise> l error. Even though there are 42 decks on the enterprise, the 2nd deck is split into two half-decks, making actually 43. I made the pit bigger than she ship so I could have a little wiggle room and just missed making it too shallow. In my testing, the halls can get a little cramped. The current decks are just a guideline and framework. They don't call it "Creative Mode" for nothing.
14:17:17 <alise> Vorpal: the only reason he had to enlarge it
14:17:20 <alise> is because the floor is 1 m^3
14:17:25 <alise> since everything in minecraft is 1 m^3
14:17:44 <Vorpal> hm
14:18:26 <Vorpal> alise, you can't make anything but square 1 m^3 objects or?
14:18:50 <alise> well, yeah.
14:19:01 <alise> it has monsters and rollercoasters and stuff. but the actual blocks
14:19:06 <alise> are 1 m^3
14:19:12 <alise> although due to the rollercoasters, pretty sure there's ramped blocks
14:19:20 <alise> i haven't played it personally, have been meaning to
14:20:40 <Vorpal> alise, the idea seems good though, but the 1 m³ restriction must he rather hampering. It will look like it was made out of square lego blocks
14:20:50 <Vorpal> err, cubic ones I mean
14:20:53 <Vorpal> not square
14:21:12 <alise> well, it's insanely popular
14:21:17 <alise> so i guess not that hampering :)
14:21:21 <alise> Vorpal: have you watched the video?
14:21:28 <Vorpal> alise, yes, just finished
14:21:34 <alise> at the right zoom level, anything can look right :-P
14:21:39 <fizzie> There are no ramped blocks, but the minecart tracks automagically ramp themselves a bit.
14:21:47 <alise> Vorpal: also, you're comparing it to lego as if that's a bad thing
14:21:53 <Vorpal> alise, and when he got closer to the stuff near the base it didn't look very good
14:22:01 <alise> well, he hasn't filled it in yet
14:22:03 <alise> Next step: Spaceflight
14:22:10 <fizzie> There are half-height "step" blocks for staircasing, but those occupy only the lower half, not the upper.
14:22:27 <Vorpal> alise, the issue is that enterprise is all smooth curves. Very few things at right angles in it
14:22:28 <fizzie> And other, smaller things, like pressure plates; those are rather thin, but I think you can still stand on them.
14:22:35 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Minecraft.png mah treez r square
14:22:52 <alise> *cube
14:22:55 <alise> i like how the sun is a square
14:22:58 <alise> very consistent
14:23:09 <Vorpal> yes indeed
14:23:15 <fizzie> Also the moon, and I think it had square craters too.
14:23:38 <fizzie> I guess it's not detailed enough for that. But at least it's square.
14:23:52 <alise> if you run fast enough does it get dark
14:23:54 <alise> or is the world flat :P
14:24:21 <Vorpal> alise, you need textures for something like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/Enterprise_Forward.jpg
14:24:29 <Vorpal> still cool/insane/awesome idea
14:24:37 <alise> Vorpal: meh, coloured blocks
14:24:42 <alise> all those coloured elements are >1m^3
14:24:47 <Vorpal> well yes
14:25:03 <fizzie> I think the world is flat. (Possibly one side of a cube, though?)
14:25:08 <alise> should have done the defiant
14:25:10 <alise> that's just a brick ;)
14:25:19 <alise> (OHHH SNAP)
14:25:20 <Vorpal> alise, still, he had to fill out lots of panels it seemed like
14:25:45 <Vorpal> or whatever you call them
14:25:59 <Vorpal> it looked like a blocky wireframe
14:26:38 <alise> who cares it's awesome :P
14:26:53 <Vorpal> alise, missing comma there
14:27:02 <alise> who, care it's awesome :P
14:27:05 <alise> *cares
14:27:12 <Vorpal> I meant after cares :P
14:28:02 -!- Harpyon has joined.
14:28:05 <fizzie> The framework was done by converting directly into a Minecraft map, wasn't it? (But the plan was to have a bunch of people doing all the interior construction in-game, if I understood right.)
14:28:24 <alise> yeah
14:28:36 <alise> Vorpal: meh, i didn't pronounce any comma
14:28:38 <fizzie> Watched it with no audio earlier today.
14:29:28 <Vorpal> ais523, does TAEB farm?
14:31:57 <alise> no
14:32:02 <alise> nor does Planar
14:32:07 <fizzie> Water in minecraft is really funny; if you scoop up a bucketful, then place it in any square, that square will turn into a "fountain", from which an infinite amount of water will flow, except that it only spreads sideways at an inclination of around 1/4 blocks. And if you later pick up the "fountain" block back to a bucket, all the water it has generated will also dry out.
14:32:16 <alise> (Note: I don't know for certain, I'm just making a 90% prediction here.)
14:32:36 <alise> fizzie: Can you pick up water without a bucket?
14:32:37 <alise> If not: aww.
14:32:41 <fizzie> For example, this is what happened when I was trying to hit a switch next to my door but accidentally unbucketed a bucket of water there: http://zem.fi/~fis/flood.png
14:32:43 <alise> I want self-contained blocks of water.
14:32:46 <fizzie> No, you need a bucket.
14:33:01 <alise> :(
14:33:04 <fizzie> I think the earlier sort of water (pre-Alpha) was even less "realistic".
14:34:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, oops
14:34:16 <fizzie> But you can "pour" a bucket of water at a great height (as long as there's something next to it -- and you can remove that something later on if you want) and it'll make a permanent waterfall at that point.
14:34:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it pure virtual world or more than that?
14:34:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: On the other hand, it was easy to clean up: I just re-bucketed that one fountain block and everything went to how it was before.
14:34:50 <fizzie> (Also, lava behaves just like water except it moves slower.)
14:35:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, very crude textures
14:35:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm not sure what you mean by "more". I mean, there's some game-like elements in it.
14:35:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, it's a stylistic choice.
14:35:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, I saw a health meter on some screenshot of it
14:35:45 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWPk5zlKAEM and especially at 4:45 onwards (after looking at the big one)
14:35:56 <alise> the main bit reminds me of Magrathea's factory
14:36:00 <fizzie> Yes, there's a "survival" game thing, monsters at night, that sort of stuff.
14:36:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
14:36:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, any cars or such?
14:36:30 <fizzie> Though if playing locally you can just set difficulty to "peaceful", and I'm sure there's servers around that do that too.
14:36:37 <fizzie> There's minecarts, with wonderfully screwy physics.
14:36:39 <alise> fizzie: So does lava... hurt you? :P
14:36:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
14:37:12 <fizzie> alise: Well, you get set on fire. And then die, after a while. Unless you run pretty fast to some water.
14:37:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you swim?
14:37:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can build perpetual motion machines out of the minecarts.
14:37:29 <alise> Vorpal: see that vide
14:37:32 <alise> *video
14:37:34 <alise> unless that's not water
14:37:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can swim, but there's an oxygen-meter if you go below the surface.
14:37:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, and can you die from falling from great heights?
14:38:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. Or at least you take damage, I'm not sure if there's a cap to that.
14:38:32 <fizzie> Oh, and you can build logic circuits out of redstone: http://minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_circuits
14:38:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you make lifts or other interesting moving stuff?
14:39:35 <fizzie> Well, it's pretty limited, but you can make those minecarts go uphill by screwing with the physics, and then use those logic circuits (and pressure plates) to make T-connections that flip direction.
14:40:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it TC?
14:40:40 <alise> fizzie: can you get them to go straight up? :D
14:40:53 <fizzie> Oh, and there's powered minecarts, but those burn fuel.
14:41:03 <Vorpal> and how do you get fuel?
14:41:18 <Vorpal> or raw material for that matter
14:41:19 <fizzie> You can mine for coal, or cut down trees.
14:41:23 <fizzie> Punch down trees, more like.
14:41:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about rock?
14:42:06 <fizzie> Basically you first punch down some trees, turn those into planks, those into sticks, then make a wooden pickaxe; then use that to get some cobblestones and make tools out of stone; and then proceed from there.
14:42:32 <Vorpal> heh
14:42:59 <fizzie> You need a diamond pickaxe to mine obsidian (the hardest material, discounting adminium), and there's other rules like that.
14:43:30 <fizzie> You need a more-than-stone pickaxe to mine gold/diamonds. But you can mine iron ore with a stone pickaxe, that's how you get steel stuff.
14:44:12 <fizzie> With ores (gold, iron) you need to use a foundry to smelt them into things you can build with, though. And the foundry needs fuel; one lump of coal can do 8 smelting operations.
14:44:14 -!- olgagirl has joined.
14:44:24 <fizzie> (One bucket of lava will do 1000, but it'll also burn out the bucket.)
14:44:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, and your build the foundry out of blocks too?
14:44:30 -!- olgagirl has quit (Client Quit).
14:44:45 <alise> <alise> fizzie: can you get them to go straight up? :D
14:44:47 <alise> (minecarts)
14:44:48 <fizzie> Yes, the foundry is made out of 8 blocks of stone in a square.
14:44:57 <alise> punch down trees :D
14:45:00 <fizzie> alise: Not that I know of, but you could make a track that spirals upwards.
14:45:20 <alise> AWESOME
14:45:26 <alise> i want that instead of a lift in every building
14:45:47 <fizzie> alise: If you're building something for people to use, waterfall elevators are popular. (You can swim up a waterfall.)
14:46:02 <Vorpal> Ilari, can you suspend things in the air? That enterprise thing looked like it was suspended on nothing
14:46:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, most things float in the air. Usually you need something to "build against" in order to actually put a block there, but it will not fall if you later dismantle what it was hanging from.
14:46:44 <Vorpal> hah
14:47:00 <fizzie> Sand and gravel do fall to lowest possible z-coordinate, though.
14:47:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, that switch thingy, what can it do?
14:47:10 <fizzie> (You can suffocate yourself in gravel if you mine carelessly.)
14:47:50 <fizzie> A switch "activates" things; things that you can activate include doors, redstone wires, and... well, I don't know. Something else too, probably. Minecart track T-junctions switch direction when activated, I think.
14:48:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, T-junction?
14:49:01 <Vorpal> how absurd
14:49:15 <Vorpal> for something on rails to turn 90° sharply
14:49:54 <fizzie> Well, the middle square of the T-junction will have a 90-degree "smooth" turn to either way, and that's the bit that flips when you activate it.
14:50:06 <fizzie> I do think it should be TC, except that it has a pretty bad limitation that all active stuff (like redstone circuits) are only updated in the local neighbourhood of a player, and I think it was a pretty small neighbourhood too. (And in any case there's a finite world anyway.)
14:50:35 <Vorpal> ah
14:50:42 <fizzie> "Circuits that are more than ~300 blocks away from your current position will cease to operate due to being on unloaded chunks."
14:51:43 <fizzie> Also, one "redstone torch" will only send a signal for 15 squares of wire, but you can chain torches; there'll be a propagation delay that way, though.
14:51:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, do trees regrow?
14:51:59 <fizzie> Yes, they're a renewable resource.
14:52:08 <Vorpal> ah
14:52:12 <fizzie> You can also plant trees, some of the greenery will turn into saplings.
14:52:27 <fizzie> They need sunlight and that sort of stuff to grow though.
14:52:41 <fizzie> Also there's some sort of farming mechanism, I think.
14:53:37 <fizzie> (I'm no expert on this, I've just dabbled with the game for something like three days when they had that free-for-all weekend, and watched other people's stuff.)
14:54:04 <alise> <fizzie> alise: If you're building something for people to use, waterfall elevators are popular. (You can swim up a waterfall.)
14:54:09 <alise> Can you shoot someone up a waterfall? :P
14:54:21 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc.
14:54:26 <fizzie> I'm not sure how much you can affect other people, except to bump them a bit.
14:54:29 <alise> <Vorpal> Ilari, [minecraft question] ;; how the hell did you make this typo?
14:54:38 <Vorpal> where?
14:54:45 <Vorpal> alise, I don't know
14:55:08 <Vorpal> alise, I'm on qwerty so it makes no sense
14:55:18 <alise> just above
14:55:35 <fizzie> Maybe it's a case of "all Finns look alike".
14:55:44 <Vorpal> alise, oh wait, it must have been fi<tab> turned into i<tab>f, noticed f and backspaced
14:55:47 <Vorpal> that makes sense
14:55:59 <Vorpal> for some value of sense
14:57:40 <fizzie> There's that hilarious "this is how you make a nice fireplace for your elaborate, built-out-of-wood house" video, where the narrator ends up accidentally completely burning down his house; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnjSWPxJxNs -- it's a bit sad to watch, he's all "uh.. uh-oh.."
14:58:00 <fizzie> Half a million views already.
14:59:05 <Vorpal> why did he upload it heh
14:59:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, how long have you been playing this came?
14:59:20 <Vorpal> game*
14:59:27 <Vorpal> argh today is the day of typos
14:59:31 <fizzie> Vorpal:
14:59:31 <fizzie> <fizzie> (I'm no expert on this, I've just dabbled with the game for something like three days when they had that free-for-all weekend, and watched other people's stuff.)
14:59:35 <Vorpal> ah
15:00:42 <fizzie> Anyway, what I was actually looking for was this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v5cAFYouWY which is about the crazy minecart physics.
15:00:58 <fizzie> (The latter half is the more interesting.)
15:01:49 <Vorpal> hm
15:02:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, do people ride carts or?
15:02:31 <fizzie> People, though there's also a minecart/box hybrid you can put stuff to.
15:04:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, "boosters"? how does that work
15:04:24 <Vorpal> it makes no sense
15:04:53 <fizzie> If you have two carts next to each other, it keeps increasing the momentum of both.
15:05:02 <Vorpal> err
15:05:06 <fizzie> Yes, "err".
15:05:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, and it wouldn't increase it for one?
15:05:52 <fizzie> Well, no, why would it? Normally it increases speed/momentum when you're going downhill, slowly decreases if moving on flat ground, and decreases faster if going uphill.
15:05:56 <fizzie> Which is sort-of realistic.
15:06:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes and the booster thing is err then indeed
15:06:19 <fizzie> But if you have two carts next to each other (on different tracks) it keeps speeding both up.
15:06:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, bug or intentional?
15:06:38 <Vorpal> or bug that they can't fix any longer due to people depending on it?
15:06:51 <fizzie> It sounds like a bug; it's possible it'll get fixed. The game's still officially in alpha.
15:07:37 <fizzie> They did add those powered minecarts to it, which can sort-of replace that sort of trickery, but of course those need fuel.
15:08:04 <fizzie> I also heard something about making torches burn out; currently torches stay lit indefinitely.
15:08:28 <Vorpal> mhm
15:10:39 <alise> <fizzie> If you have two carts next to each other, it keeps increasing the momentum of both.
15:10:41 <alise> INFINITE SPEED
15:10:48 <fizzie> No, there's a cap for speed.
15:11:05 <alise> :(
15:11:07 <fizzie> There isn't a cap for momentum, though, except that after it overflows the cart stops flat.
15:12:47 <alise> fizzie: wow, when he tries to put the fire out the block of fire becomes a perfectly square block of water :D
15:12:52 <fizzie> Oh, and you can make boats out of wood, and boats float, so if you "drive" a boat into a waterfall, it'll rise up faster than what you could swim. Plus you can sort-of stay outside the water while still going upward, so that you don't drown.
15:13:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, raise?
15:13:32 <alise> haha man gravity-defying fire this is my favourite type of fire
15:13:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, they got the direction in the waterfall wrong?
15:14:16 <fizzie> No, it's just that it's considered water, and floating things go up in water.
15:14:41 <alise> :D
15:14:52 <Vorpal> [download] 66.2% of 141.13M at 121.89k/s ETA 06:41
15:14:55 <Vorpal> fuck youtube
15:15:41 <Sgeo> Fuck the word "fuck"
15:15:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, did they intentionally make it this weird?
15:15:56 <alise> Sgeo: seriously?
15:16:05 <alise> Vorpal: the guy's swedish iirc, so yes.
15:16:12 <alise> (a friend knows him)
15:16:12 * Sgeo was trying to be humorous
15:16:16 <alise> (well, "knows")
15:17:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: I wouldn't want to start guessing about intentions; but the way water works has been changed, so I guess they're just playing around and seeing what works.
15:17:03 <Vorpal> heh
15:17:31 <ais523> back
15:18:38 <ais523> what's the standard eager definition of the Y combinator?
15:19:01 <Sgeo> DF?
15:19:08 <Sgeo> Also, I need to leave soon
15:19:14 <Sgeo> Hopefully my clothing will be dry soon
15:20:30 <fizzie> Sgeo: If by DF you mean Dwarf Fortress, no, not that; Minecraft, though DF is I think officially mentioned as an inspiration.
15:20:44 <Gregor> ais523: The Y combinator works whether it's eager or not.
15:21:02 <ais523> Gregor: agreed, but it needs to be defined differently in the two cases
15:21:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it need to play on server or does it work locally?
15:22:41 <Sgeo> Bye all
15:22:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can play locally if you like; that's the only thing I've tried. There's a lot of servers around, though. And I understand some servers have all kinds of different additions.
15:22:59 <alise> ais523: erm
15:23:03 <alise> it's not the Y combinator then :)
15:23:08 <alise> it's a fixed-point combinator
15:23:09 <alise> but not Y
15:23:19 <ais523> alise: hmm, OK
15:23:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you have a copy still or?
15:23:25 <alise> the common call-by-value one is called Z
15:23:28 <alise> Z = λf. (λx. f (λy. x x y)) (λx. f (λy. x x y))
15:23:59 <Vorpal> alise, wtf image: http://minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Ladder-water-lock.PNG
15:24:07 <ais523> hmm, I showed my supervisor my crazy dynamically-scoped Y and he told me to wrap it up in a constant so nobody would have to see the definition
15:24:08 <Vorpal> alise, the latters prevent water from going down
15:24:12 <alise> :D
15:24:13 <Vorpal> ladders*
15:24:25 <alise> ais523: haha
15:24:35 <alise> it'd turn them insane
15:24:35 <Vorpal> alise, http://minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:Ladder-water-tunnel.PNG
15:24:46 <alise> Vorpal: i said :D
15:24:53 <Vorpal> alise, yeah but that was a different image
15:25:02 <Vorpal> this one is about as absurd
15:25:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes; "You will be able to play the game without an internet connection if you've run the launcher at least once while connected to the internet." -- so I could still continue to play locally after getting it "for free" during that weekend, though I'm not exactly sure what the license terms say.
15:25:19 <alise> Vorpal: wow @ that
15:25:20 <alise> *that
15:25:36 <fizzie> Yeah, water won't go through an (open) door either.
15:25:41 <fizzie> Easy to do airlocks.
15:26:08 <alise> can you do an ACTUAL SPACESHIP :|
15:26:38 <fizzie> I don't think you can. :(
15:26:43 <ais523> aha, I've just figured out what's /actually going on/ in this hardware Y
15:26:45 <fizzie> Maybe in beta!
15:26:53 <ais523> the definition is the standard Y(f) = f(Y(f))
15:26:59 <alise> ais523: not Y
15:27:09 <alise> fizzie: Then we can STAR TREKKING ACROSS THE MINEYVERSE
15:27:13 <ais523> but the two Y(f) are the same circuit with a multiplexer, to avoid an infinite regress
15:27:15 <ais523> alise: yes, actual Y
15:27:19 <ais523> it's call-by-name
15:27:21 <alise> ais523: Y(f) = f(Y(f)) is not Y
15:27:23 <Vorpal> <ais523> aha, I've just figured out what's /actually going on/ in this hardware Y <--- hardware Y?
15:27:25 <alise> it's a fixed-point combinator
15:27:27 <alise> but it's not Y
15:27:33 <ais523> alise: really? which one /is/ Y then?
15:27:41 <alise> Y = λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x))
15:27:46 <alise> the famous one
15:27:46 <ais523> oh, that's true of fixed-point combinators in general
15:27:52 <Vorpal> ais523, are you saying you are doing lambda calculus in *hardware*?
15:27:53 <ais523> this is typed lambda calculus, though
15:27:55 <ais523> Vorpal: yep!
15:27:56 <Vorpal> that's awesome
15:27:59 <Vorpal> ais523, FPGAs or?
15:28:04 <ais523> mostly in simulation
15:28:10 <Vorpal> ais523, to what end?
15:28:15 <Vorpal> esoteric or research?
15:28:18 <ais523> research
15:28:29 <ais523> we think it's more efficient that traditional imperativey methods
15:28:36 <Vorpal> huh
15:28:53 <alise> "We also think that giving crack to monkeys is the quickest route to both a research paper and a good time."
15:29:14 <ais523> alise: anyway, whatever you call the combinator, y(f) = f(y(f)) is the actual definition being used in hardware
15:29:20 <alise> *fix(f)
15:29:53 <alise> If you call it Y, I will turn into a nuclear bomb and then detonate myself. :|
15:29:57 <alise> That is how IMPORTANT this matter is!
15:30:05 <alise> Moving on,
15:30:11 <fizzie> Do let me know when I can buy an Intel Lambda iλ processor, though.
15:30:13 <alise> ais523: your hardware is crazy.
15:30:28 <ais523> fizzie: it's not general hardware
15:30:42 <ais523> it's a case of implementing one /specific/ lambda-calculus circuit (which could be any one you like) in hardware
15:30:47 <ais523> as in, your hardware only does one program
15:30:49 <alise> ais523: But you could implement x86 in a lambda expression!
15:30:58 <ais523> alise: yes, but it'd probably be easier to do it by hand
15:30:58 <alise> "Microcode? More like LAMBDACODE"
15:31:05 -!- FireyFly has joined.
15:33:58 <alise> http://minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Notch "Physics: Yes"
15:35:55 <fizzie> Also transparency; but maybe it refers to the fact that it's not completely cube-shaped.
15:38:39 <alise> "MINECRAFT: A FIRST PERSON AUTISM SIMULATOR" ;; best slogan ever
15:38:50 <ais523> ontopic found via proggit: http://j.mearie.org/post/1181041789/brainfuck-interpreter-in-2-lines-of-c
15:38:55 <ais523> someone trying to golf a BF interp
15:39:00 <ais523> can we beat 160 bytes?
15:39:04 <alise> http://minecraftwiki.net/images/6/68/1283223082465.jpg I see nothing that looks even vaguely like a person in the image; someone point to it?
15:39:06 <alise> ais523: mearie is lifthrasiir
15:39:13 <alise> he linked the post here recently
15:39:18 <ais523> heh, good to know
15:39:18 <alise> also, attempts ensued, iirc
15:39:22 <alise> or perhaps before he said it, I forget
15:39:27 <alise> recently = days
15:39:35 <ais523> that use of syscall is really ingenious, incidentally
15:40:14 <alise> i think it'll be very hard to beat
15:40:48 <ais523> loop parsing is always fun in BF
15:41:01 <fizzie> alise: In your picture there's that thing with glowing eyes, near the horizon, at the left end of the slope.
15:41:09 <ais523> the BF interp I submitted to the last IOCCC did it two characters at a time, via a lookup table
15:41:31 <ais523> relying on the fact that it doesn't matter whether you end up before or after the [ or ] you're trying to match
15:41:32 <alise> fizzie: I see a very fuzzy thing but no glowing eyes.
15:41:46 <ais523> but that's obviously not the shortest way, it's just one of the more confusing ones to understand
15:41:55 <fizzie> alise: Maybe he's hiding from you, then.
15:42:06 <alise> ais523: while(*p)myself(s); is clearly the easiest
15:42:09 <alise> and ] just doing return;
15:42:19 <ais523> alise: for a compiler
15:42:20 <alise> ooh, or even just break :-D
15:42:23 <ais523> I mean for an interp
15:42:27 <alise> ais523: i do too
15:42:30 <alise> myself is an interpreter
15:42:38 <alise> it returns on ]
15:42:44 <alise> and does while(*p)myself(prog); on [
15:42:47 <ais523> ok, so recurse on [, return on ]
15:42:54 <ais523> like lifthrasiir's
15:42:59 <alise> and since you pass the code pointer, it restores automatically
15:43:15 <ais523> how do you execute a loop 0 times, in that case?
15:44:00 <ais523> hmm, this would be easy with INTERCAL control constructs
15:44:03 <alise> erm, !*p, so myself(p) isn't executed
15:44:19 <ais523> alise: yep, then you end up after the [ not after the ]
15:44:31 <ais523> because nothing moved forwards to the ]
15:45:09 <alise> ah, ofc
15:45:59 <alise> do i(p)while(*p);
15:46:04 <alise> then i checks p... hmm, no, this is too complicated
15:46:15 <alise> ais523: clearly bf should have all while loops be do-while :P
15:46:32 <ais523> alise: DoFuck
15:46:46 <ais523> I seem to remember making an attempt to prove it TC a while ago
15:50:14 <alise> no dofuck on the wikis
15:51:32 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
15:52:41 -!- ais523 has quit.
15:53:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:53:43 <alise> hi ais523
15:53:50 <ais523> hi
15:53:52 <ais523> connection issues
15:54:37 * alise connects the issues
15:57:55 <ais523> wow, at http://codegolf.com/brainfuck the top two entries are within one byte of each other and in different languages
15:57:59 <ais523> I wouldn't expect it to be so close
15:59:01 <alise> bah, codegolf.com
15:59:04 <alise> it's like anagolf for boring people!
15:59:43 <alise> hey, <> works in shells
15:59:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:59:46 <alise> ehird@dinky:~$ echo boo >foo; (echo hi; cat) <>foo
15:59:46 <alise> hi
15:59:46 <alise> boo
15:59:56 <ais523> anagolf : codegolf :: random programming for #esoteric : government contracts
16:00:05 <alise> and government contracts are boring as hell
16:02:35 <alise> hmm
16:02:37 <alise> famous people on our wiki:
16:02:43 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Tom_Duff
16:02:44 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Dankogai
16:02:48 <alise> any more? :p
16:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> More untested Life speculation!
16:03:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't actually think high-density glider streams are the best way to destroy stuff.
16:03:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: relink me to that pastebin?
16:03:58 <alise> OR I COULD FIND IT MYSELF I *GUESS*
16:04:02 <Phantom_Hoover> They tend to make a big cloud of opaque debris at the end without doing much extra damage.
16:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, http://pastebin.com/kfH1mw7M
16:04:33 * alise pacefalm @ golly not shipping its icon in the bianry package
16:04:34 <alise> *binary
16:04:54 <Phantom_Hoover> "High density" includes normal Gosper guns too, though.
16:05:14 * Phantom_Hoover decides to try compiling Golly from CVS
16:05:26 <alise> GOOD LUCK
16:05:30 <alise> also it's svn isn't it?
16:05:38 <Phantom_Hoover> CVS, apparently.
16:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel like I've gone back in time.
16:05:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: remember the lightspeed telegraph? when i poked a hole in it and it burned the fuel really quickly and then replaced the entire telegraph with still life very rapidly?
16:05:54 <alise> that was some fire
16:06:18 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's basically standard behaviour for unstable things.
16:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> They burn spectacularly with the slightest alteration.
16:07:05 <Phantom_Hoover> It's also where I made the multibarrel Gosper, while building a normal one to aim at the LST.
16:07:58 <alise> :D
16:08:01 <alise> DIE SCIENCE, DIE
16:08:05 <alise> *DIE SCIENCE, DIE!
16:08:19 <Phantom_Hoover> DIE SINS, DIE!
16:08:24 <ais523> there should be some interesting way to do competitive Life
16:08:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, there's always the majority neighbourhood rules.
16:09:02 <Gregor> Was about to say.
16:09:06 * Phantom_Hoover decides to knock together a rule table for that while he waits.
16:09:14 -!- cpressey has joined.
16:09:23 <ais523> but I mean, with some sort of incentive for building a large complex structure
16:09:29 * alise checks it out too
16:09:31 <Gregor> Just do Life as normal, and assign cells to their majority neighbor. The problem is that may make "attacks" sort of useless.
16:09:34 <alise> let's see if it works with 64-bit python now
16:09:49 <ais523> Gregor: how do you actually control the thing, though?
16:09:55 <ais523> each person gets to set up an area to start with then just leaves it?
16:10:02 <Gregor> Sure
16:10:09 <ais523> I suppose if people had a large enough area, and they were far enough apart, it could work a bit like corewars
16:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I asked the guys on the mailing list and they said it did.
16:10:38 <alise> Ah.
16:10:49 <alise> Let's see if it builds with -j3 and *without* adding build options. :-)
16:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a matter of someone not realising that Py_InitModule4 was platform-specific.
16:10:58 <alise> (Probably not.)
16:11:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Stupid projects making a big deal of releases.
16:11:23 <alise> I'd have 2.1.1 out in a day :P
16:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, am I a Bad Person for not using clang as my default compiler?
16:11:28 <alise> Not really.
16:11:35 <Gregor> Awesome competitive Wikipedia Clickit game:
16:11:38 <alise> Nobody does that apart from everyone on OS X, and that was Apple's decision.
16:11:44 <alise> ...
16:11:45 <alise> omg omg omg
16:11:46 <alise> Golly with clang
16:11:48 <alise> I must now try this
16:11:51 <cpressey> ais523: I can't see how you could strategize, exactly.
16:12:05 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, there are ways.
16:12:18 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/golly/src$ make -f makefile-gtk -j3 CXXC=clang
16:12:19 <alise> Oh yeah baby.
16:12:20 <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, high-density ash is basically impenetrable.
16:12:20 <cpressey> You just have a big breeder pattern and hope that it lines up fortuitously against your neighbour's big breeder patterns?
16:12:23 <alise> Oops I don't have clang
16:12:32 <alise> Now I do (soon).
16:12:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What's ash again?
16:12:41 <Gregor> An impartial judge chooses a start page and two goal pages, each player is given one of the goal pages (as their goal). One at a time, each player takes a step from the current page, trying to get towards their own goal page. First whose goal is hit wins.
16:12:41 <alise> The result of destroying things?
16:12:42 <ais523> alise: "CXXC"? I thought "CXX" was the normal env variable
16:12:49 <alise> ais523: well, these guys are ~different~
16:12:52 <alise> I tried CXX first
16:12:54 <ais523> alise: standard Minix shell, isn't it?
16:12:54 <alise> then checked the makefile-gtk
16:13:01 <alise> ais523: >_<
16:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the junk you get after something burns.
16:13:04 <alise> tell me that was purposeful
16:13:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: right
16:13:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, should be passable with a bunch of redundant spaceships
16:13:17 <ais523> Gregor: people would keep jumping back to dates, wouldn't they?
16:13:17 <alise> say
16:13:23 <ais523> to prevent the opponent getting an advantage?
16:13:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence my point about high-density streams.
16:13:31 <alise> imagine a big ring of spaceships that also continually send gliders to the centre control unit
16:13:40 <alise> whenever the control unit doesn't receive a glider in the right time according to a clock
16:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Firing a Gosper gun at high-density ash is suicide, basically.
16:13:48 <alise> it creates a new one in the right direction
16:14:03 <alise> so as long as all of them aren't destroyed at once -- which probably won't happen -- it'll keep going
16:14:15 <alise> (they themselves act as a shield to the control-unit-ship)
16:14:31 <cpressey> Google is useless for this, but... I remember seeing a pattern which just grows. In all directions. At like 1/2C.
16:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> What happens if the mothership crashes into some debris in its path.
16:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, the spacefiller.
16:14:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It's in Golly's breeder collection
16:15:02 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: That's it.
16:15:13 <Gregor> ais523: Why back to "dates"?
16:15:13 <alise> [clang compiles]
16:15:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Isn't it c/4?
16:15:24 <Gregor> ais523: And they still have to try to get to their own goal.
16:15:29 <alise> pretty sure there's no c/2 all-directions spacefiller :P
16:15:31 <ais523> Gregor: because they're on basically every page
16:15:35 <alise> since that's sort of impossible
16:15:50 <Gregor> ais523: Fine, but why do you think dates don't give the opponent an advantage?
16:15:58 <Gregor> ais523: You don't know what the opponent's goal is.
16:16:09 <ais523> generally speaking, they're not within one hop of a random page
16:16:10 <alise> clang -DVERSION=2.2b4 -DGOLLYDIR="" -O4 -Wall -Wno-non-virtual-dtor -fno-strict-aliasing -o bgolly ObjGTK/bigint.o ObjGTK/lifealgo.o ObjGTK/hlifealgo.o ObjGTK/hlifedraw.o ObjGTK/qlifealgo.o ObjGTK/qlifedraw.o ObjGTK/jvnalgo.o ObjGTK/ruletreealgo.o ObjGTK/ruletable_algo.o ObjGTK/ghashbase.o ObjGTK/ghashdraw.o ObjGTK/readpattern.o ObjGTK/writepattern.o ObjGTK/liferules.o ObjGTK/util.o ObjGTK/liferender.o ObjGTK/viewport.o ObjGTK/lifepoll.o ObjGTK/generationsal
16:16:10 <alise> go.o ObjGTK/bgolly.o -lz
16:16:10 <alise> ObjGTK/bigint.o: file not recognized: File format not recognized
16:16:11 <alise> Hrm :P
16:16:16 <ais523> ah, but not knowing what the enemy goal is makes it interesting
16:16:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, c/2 orthogonally.
16:16:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh, right
16:16:28 <Gregor> ais523: They're not going to be within one hop of your page either :P
16:16:29 <alise> cool
16:16:35 <ais523> at least, if you aren't near /your/ goal, you're probably going to click a date just to make the opponent further from theirs
16:16:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I still think it's basically impossible to strategize without knowing how your patterns are aligned wrt your neighbours. Otherwise I'd just spacefiller and hope.
16:16:39 <ais523> as defence is more important than attack
16:16:41 <ais523> if you're losing
16:16:41 <alise> who
16:16:42 <alise> *whoa
16:16:45 <alise> they have an autoconf-based system now?
16:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Without configure, it seems...
16:17:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: autoreconf, dude
16:17:10 <alise> you don't store configure in repos
16:17:12 <cpressey> OK, C/4, whatever. Point being, fast.
16:17:17 <alise> cpressey: *c :P
16:17:24 <alise> cpressey: and it dies if anything hits it
16:17:29 <ais523> crazy blue-skies project of mine I never started: a build system where you just give it the sources and it figures out the rest
16:17:30 <alise> so it's not a very good weapon
16:17:36 <alise> ais523: exists
16:17:40 <alise> more or less
16:17:43 <ais523> alise: does it work well?
16:17:49 <alise> you have to specify the single command to compile one file, and a list of files, and it handles dependencies automatically
16:17:51 <alise> ais523: yes, quite popular
16:18:05 <ais523> what's it called?
16:18:11 <alise> fabric or something
16:18:31 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Spacefillers could be good for making high-density ash quickly.
16:18:59 <alise> ais523: http://code.google.com/p/fabricate/
16:19:17 <Phantom_Hoover> And the glider pulse from the fire would probably be damaging.
16:19:26 <cpressey> My money is still on the spacefiller.
16:19:33 <alise> add a filename -> compiler invocation table and automatic build/compile/link/clean actions and you're done
16:19:37 <alise> oh, plus a globber
16:19:40 <alise> then it'd just be
16:19:44 <alise> sources = ['*.c']
16:19:45 <alise> or whatever
16:20:29 <ais523> alise: does it, say, install libraries that the code depends on?
16:20:36 <ais523> figuring them out by looking at linker errors?
16:21:12 <cpressey> ais523: :D
16:21:33 <alise> ais523: no XD
16:21:57 <ais523> alise: see, that's the level of intelligence I was thinking about
16:21:59 <alise> ais523: it does use strace, though
16:22:01 <alise> which is magic enough
16:22:14 <ais523> really, I wanted something where you could take a tarball and automatically make, say, a .deb file
16:22:17 <alise> that build system sounds nice though, maybe i'll write it :P
16:22:26 <alise> ais523: without a makefile in it?
16:22:26 <ais523> to allow easy tarball installations for people who don't understand compiling
16:23:17 <ais523> alise: even without a makefile; I'm not sure if it should use a makefile if present
16:23:22 <ais523> probably not, because most makefiles are written badly
16:23:56 <alise> link-time optimisation for golly would be so cool but meh
16:24:02 * ais523 vaguely wonders what the shortest BF hello world is
16:24:36 <alise> config.status: error: cannot find input file: `Makefile.in'
16:24:40 <alise> i should probably just use the makefile
16:25:06 <cpressey> ais523: the very idea of "fuzzy linking"...
16:25:24 <cpressey> So appealing. Yet so evil.
16:25:30 <ais523> alise: is there a Makefile.am?
16:25:45 <alise> ais523: yes, but autoreconf fails
16:25:49 <alise> so i'm just using their non-auto makefiles
16:25:57 <ais523> what's the error message?
16:26:07 <Phantom_Hoover> AAARGH the CVS Golly has more patterns.
16:26:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Now I have to look at all of them...
16:27:48 <alise> http://dcreager.net/2010/02/17/llvm-lto-karmic/ ;; waaay too compilated
16:28:40 <alise> I'll just settle for -O3. Sheesh. :P
16:30:41 <alise> i appear to lack a clang-compatible c stdlib
16:30:59 <alise> h i forgot clang++
16:31:06 <alise> hmm wait
16:32:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I suggest we rewrite Golly.
16:32:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Whhhyyyyyy
16:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> C++ isn't *that* bad a sin.
16:32:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because it SUCKS and it's so SLOW and the UI SUCKS
16:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ...The algorithm would be the same...
16:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Is Langton's Ant symmetric about black/white inversion?
16:34:29 <Phantom_Hoover> And any necessary rotations and reflections.
16:34:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait.
16:34:56 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/golly/src$ make -f makefile-gtk -j3 CXXC=clang++ CXXFLAGS='-DVERSION=2.2b4 -DGOLLYDIR="" -O3 -Wall -Wno-non-virtual-dtor -fno-strict-aliasing -fno-stack-protector'
16:34:57 * alise whistles
16:35:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You should totally design a conservative Life-like CA.
16:35:17 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I'm still waiting for HashAnt.
16:35:21 <alise> Interesting thing would be that nothing would evaporate.
16:35:40 <alise> Everything would either oscillate or traverse.
16:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, Hashlife is extensible to Langton's Ant.
16:35:45 <alise> Oscillate with possible period one, that is,
16:36:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Man, Hashlife has to be the coolest method of simulating a turing machine ever.
16:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> That's one of Golly's advantages over previous simulators.
16:36:07 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but is it implemented somewhere?
16:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, in Golly.
16:36:18 <cpressey> Oh, nice.
16:36:18 <alise> It actually has multiple parts on different generations at one time, doesn't it?
16:36:21 <alise> Hashlife, that is.
16:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> It *uses* HashLife for everything other than Life.
16:36:33 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yes.
16:36:48 <Phantom_Hoover> The philosophical implications are interesting.
16:36:48 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, do you mean...
16:37:02 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> It *uses* HashLife for everything other than Life. ;; lawl
16:37:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Do you mean it translates X into Life then runs Hashlife on it?
16:37:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the extension...
16:37:24 <alise> cpressey: Yes.
16:37:29 <alise> Or rather.
16:37:36 <alise> To another, multi-coloured Life-like CA.
16:37:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Man, imagine running the sentient dudes on Hashlife.
16:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, no, it extends Hashlife to arbitrary CAs and runs that on it.
16:37:52 <alise> "I think that perhaps it is verbut what about the walruses?"
16:37:56 <cpressey> That feels like it hardly counts ;/
16:38:07 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, no, it extends Hashlife to arbitrary CAs and runs that on it.
16:38:08 <alise> well, that
16:38:15 <alise> but the ant simulator does some jiggery-pokery, i think
16:38:15 <alise> not sure
16:38:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Life itself has Quicklife, which isn't hashed.
16:38:43 <alise> is quicklife faster than hashlife?
16:38:46 <alise> that is not my experience
16:38:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It is for highly disordered patterns.
16:39:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Supposedly.
16:40:35 <cpressey> I wonder. Modify Hashlife to find self-similar areas of Wang tiling...
16:41:25 <alise> lol wangs
16:41:32 <alise> that is my contribution to this discussion
16:42:58 * alise transplants Maverick's llvm-2.7 onto his own system
16:45:31 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
16:49:58 <alise> https://launchpad.net/~llvm/+archive/ppa
16:49:59 * alise tries this
16:50:11 <alise> wait no
16:50:12 <alise> it's ancient
16:50:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: does anything actually use the perl?
16:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Some of the scripts.
16:51:03 <alise> Anything good?
16:51:07 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
16:51:14 <alise> So we can do without it?
16:51:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think there are any Perl scripts without Python equivalents.
16:52:39 <alise> then I can do it with llvm
16:53:47 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/golly/src$ make -f makefile-gtk -j3 CXXC=clang++ CXXFLAGS='-DVERSION=2.2b4 -DGOLLYDIR="" -O3 -Wall -Wno-non-virtual-dtor -fno-strict-aliasing'
16:53:51 <alise> this *should* work now, without perl
16:54:01 <alise> assuming i can just rip out the perl support and everything will work :) haha
16:54:07 <alise> unlikely, but
16:54:26 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: goin' back under my rock).
16:54:37 <Vorpal> alise, it translates wireworld into something GOL like and then runs hashlife on it!?
16:54:44 <Vorpal> is that what you said above?
16:54:47 <Vorpal> that's quite aburd
16:55:04 <alise> i never said wireworld
16:55:17 <alise> wireworld is perfectly doable as an N-colour life-like automaton
16:55:18 <alise> because it is one.
16:55:20 <Vorpal> ah
16:55:30 <alise> 4 colour
16:55:33 <Vorpal> alise, which are the ones golly translates then?
16:55:41 <alise> that *is* a translation
16:55:43 <alise> of a sort
16:55:46 <Vorpal> hm
16:55:59 <alise> well not really
16:56:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: tell Vorpal how it does langton's ant
16:56:07 <alise> i'm fuzzy on the details
16:56:19 <Vorpal> well that is easy as an n-colour automaton
16:56:57 <Vorpal> you need 2 + 4*2 colours iirc:
16:57:01 <Vorpal> white and black
16:57:11 <Vorpal> ant on white and black, one for each direction
16:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it can run any n-colour life-like CA with >=256 states with Hashlife.
16:57:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, >= ?
16:57:31 <Vorpal> really?
16:57:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Argh, <=
16:57:41 <Vorpal> ah
16:57:45 <Vorpal> that makes a lot more sense
16:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm terrible at that, for some reason...
16:58:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what exactly counts as life like?
16:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, what Golly can run.
16:58:25 <Vorpal> XD
16:58:48 <alise> Vorpal: a 2d cellular automaton with a fixed number of colours based on a moore neighbourhood
16:58:54 <alise> perhaps a bit more than that
16:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Moore neighbourhood with radius one and constant transition rules.
16:59:15 <Phantom_Hoover> That's it, if I read the RuleTable documentation correctly.
17:00:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Designing a conservative CA is pretty difficult...
17:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought tat.
17:00:20 <Phantom_Hoover> *that
17:00:23 <alise> Since you see the neighbourhood but only control one cell, and flipping it might imbalance it and might not.
17:00:31 <alise> So you need to make sure the cells around it will flip properly, too.
17:00:33 <alise> Delicate stuff.
17:00:34 <Phantom_Hoover> This occurred to me.
17:00:44 <alise> I just realise dit.
17:00:47 <alise> *realised it.
17:01:28 <Phantom_Hoover> RuleTable is starting to annoy me...
17:01:58 <alise> Hmm, how many bits of information is a B/S rulestring?
17:02:00 <Vorpal> alise, a conservative bully automaton is a lot simpler hm
17:02:15 <alise> Wait, it's just 2^16, right?
17:02:21 <alise> The two tables.
17:03:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The obvious way would require 18 bits.
17:03:29 <Phantom_Hoover> *26
17:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> *16
17:03:36 <alise> Hurrrr
17:03:39 <alise> So 2^16 then.
17:03:55 <alise> So there's only 65536 two-colour Lifelike CAs.
17:03:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
17:04:05 <alise> Half of them are inverses.
17:04:18 <alise> So to check for conservativity, that's just 32,768 iterations of a fairly simple loop.
17:04:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I still don't know how B0 rules work.
17:04:26 <alise> Trivial.
17:04:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Epileptically. :P
17:04:54 <Phantom_Hoover> How do we check for conservativity in this case?
17:05:06 <Phantom_Hoover> We can't just run through state transitions, I think.
17:05:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's not THAT simple, but...
17:06:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The state of a cell the next generation depends only on its neighbourhood, not even its current state.
17:06:10 <alise> 2^8 = 256.
17:06:16 <alise> Er, wait.
17:06:19 <alise> 2^9 in this case.
17:06:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Simple:
17:06:25 <Phantom_Hoover> No, that's the point of B/S rules.
17:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> B is what happens when the cell is 0, S when it's 1.
17:06:41 <alise> Generate 512 cell + neighbourhood blocks.
17:06:48 <alise> You know what I mean?
17:06:58 <alise> A cell plus its Moore niehgbourhood.
17:07:01 <alise> *neighbourhood.
17:07:08 <alise> Then, check the resulting midd-- oh wait
17:07:09 <alise> it's per-generation
17:07:10 <alise> darn
17:07:16 <alise> meaning you can't assume the outer rim of cells stays the same
17:07:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It may be undecideable.
17:07:33 <alise> undecidable. Whatever.
17:07:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect so.
17:07:36 <alise> My spellcheck likes neither.
17:08:03 <Vorpal> alise, what is undecidable?
17:08:13 <Vorpal> if a CA is conservative or not?
17:08:18 <alise> Clolly compiles.
17:08:20 <alise> Vorpal: i think so
17:09:00 <Vorpal> alise, shouldn't it be be possible to detect cases of "definitely not conservative" with some simple tests? Then you have a handful candidates left that *might* be conservative
17:09:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It runs STUPIDLY fast. Although Golly does anyway.
17:09:08 <Vorpal> or am I totally missing something
17:09:13 <alise> Vorpal: well, sure, but...
17:09:22 <alise> there's 2^15 to check out
17:09:26 <alise> we need a lot more than narrowing down
17:09:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what command?
17:09:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sec
17:09:48 <alise> you need to modify the makefile and shit
17:11:09 <Vorpal> alise, can you prove it is undecidable?
17:12:04 <alise> Vorpal: Nope.
17:12:52 <Vorpal> alise, well, a handful of automated tests should be able to see that there are patterns that are definitely not conservative in many CAs. I have no idea how many candidates it would reduce the set to. Say you test all 2x2 patterns first, and have a border around so you can detect if it flows outwards. Then any conservative candidates left are tested on 3x3 and so on up a few steps. When you have few eno
17:12:52 <Vorpal> ugh left, test on randomly filled space maybe. It might be that you can demonstrate none of them are conservative
17:13:23 <Vorpal> as in, you hit some combo that turns out to be non-conservative for each one.
17:13:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Some of the B/S rules are conservative trivially.
17:13:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm okay
17:13:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well okay id
17:13:35 <Phantom_Hoover> S12345678/S is obviously one.
17:13:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Want a tar.gz of the latest Golly CVS compiled with clang but without Perl support?
17:13:40 <Phantom_Hoover> */B
17:13:49 <alise> Whoops, the Perl scripts are still there. How did that happen?
17:13:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, S12345678/B means nothing to me. What do you mean?
17:13:54 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, why not?
17:14:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, er, S012345678/B is id.
17:14:08 <alise> why not what? the binary?
17:14:14 <Phantom_Hoover> In B/S notation.
17:14:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, mhm
17:14:22 <alise> bullshit notation
17:14:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, in that I might as well.
17:14:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: BUT WILL YOU CHERISH IT
17:14:35 <alise> also it's 64-bit
17:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, Golly's random fill takes FOREVER.
17:14:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I WILL CHERISH IT
17:15:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, for a reasonably sized block (1024x1024 iirc) it took about half a second I last tried
17:15:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless there are actually any useful Perl scripts, then yes.
17:15:41 <Vorpal> what is wrong with perl support?
17:15:52 <alise> Vorpal: breaks clang compilation
17:15:55 <Vorpal> ah
17:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I'm talking about hundreds of thousands on each side.
17:16:00 <Vorpal> alise, and what is wrong with gcc?
17:16:00 <alise> all perl scripts have python equivalents anyway
17:16:04 <alise> or at least all the interesting ones
17:16:06 <alise> Vorpal: it's not as fast.
17:16:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there's giffer.
17:16:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm okay
17:16:10 <Phantom_Hoover> That's useful.
17:16:12 <alise> and everything is wrong with gcc, dude
17:16:14 <alise> everything
17:16:29 <Vorpal> alise, hm? compile speed or speed or resulting binary?
17:16:32 <Vorpal> brb phone
17:16:41 <alise> resulting binary
17:19:27 <Gregor> Somebody CTCP VERSION me and tell me what you get.
17:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> "-Gregor- VERSION bip-0.8.2
17:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> -Gregor- VERSION Colloquy 2.3 (4617) - Mac OS X 10.5.8 (Intel) - http://colloquy.info
17:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> -Gregor- VERSION xchat 2.8.8 Linux 2.6.32-4.slh.1-sidux-amd64 [x86_64/1.60GHz/SMP]
17:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> -Gregor- VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM)"
17:20:06 <alise> Gregor: What have you done?
17:20:07 <alise> Dear God.
17:20:15 <alise> :D
17:20:16 <Gregor> lawl
17:20:16 <alise> Bouncers lawl
17:20:21 <Gregor> MEGAVERSION
17:20:33 <alise> Microsoft IRC#: so not a real thing
17:20:47 <Gregor> ORLY?! :P
17:20:48 <alise> Windows 8 beta: so not a real thing :P
17:21:07 <Gregor> I love how bip replies, but also forwards.
17:21:09 <Gregor> Kiiiinda weird.l
17:21:13 <Gregor> *weird
17:21:18 <Gregor> So there's a trick to figure out whether I'm actually connected or not.
17:21:45 <Gregor> And Colloquy is the worst IRC client ever.
17:21:48 <Gregor> It is so terrible.
17:23:03 <alise> "-r--r--r--"
17:23:06 <alise> This is not a normal file permission.
17:23:11 <alise> This should not be in my package :|
17:23:13 * Phantom_Hoover fires a p30 glider beam at some ash.
17:23:16 <Phantom_Hoover> For SCIENCE!
17:23:31 <alise> wait, or should it?
17:23:48 <alise> Gregor: Should the README etc. in my binary package's tar.gz be -r--r--r--? :P
17:23:56 <alise> Or something saner like... being owner-writeable?
17:23:58 <Gregor> It should be -r--------
17:24:04 <alise> Gregor: x_x
17:24:07 <alise> No. :P
17:24:12 <Gregor> Or ---x--x--x
17:24:20 <alise> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird ehird 1368 2010-09-28 17:21 appicon.xpm ;; why does this show as purple x_x
17:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> It didn't hit anything.
17:24:57 <Gregor> It shows up as Media Purple.
17:25:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, Microsoft IRC#?
17:25:44 <Vorpal> wtf is that
17:25:59 <Gregor> Vorpal: My IRC client of choice!
17:26:10 <Vorpal> hm faked I think
17:26:16 <Gregor> NOWAI
17:26:20 <alise> Vorpal the highly intelligent philosopher
17:26:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: GoL has cooler physics than real life.
17:26:44 <Vorpal> now, someone needs to port Microsoft Comic Chat to .NET
17:26:45 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, embiggening the ash cloud.
17:26:47 <Vorpal> DO IT
17:26:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I want to try drawing Fenman diagrams for it at some point.
17:27:07 <alise> Fenman!
17:27:10 <alise> The GoL scientist.
17:27:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that sounds like a quite cool way to represent GOL collisions
17:27:19 <alise> How can I get myself an ash cloud easily?
17:27:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm, wait maybe not, since it depends on exactly where they hit each other
17:27:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, control-5 with some stuff selected.
17:27:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm using a 10% fill for this.
17:28:04 <Vorpal> I mean, a glider hitting a large space shit at the top or near the end would result in different things probably
17:28:08 <Vorpal> ship*
17:28:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Then wait for it to die out?
17:28:11 <alise> space shit :D
17:28:19 <Vorpal> alise, yeah weird typo
17:28:25 <alise> not really
17:28:31 <alise> well a bit
17:28:47 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, not easily explained by qwerty
17:28:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no, it makes a standard ash cloud, which I then shoot with a Gosper gun to see what happens.
17:28:57 <Vorpal> unlike simple i/o swaps or such
17:29:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It is uber-slow zoomed in.
17:29:05 <alise> My compile.
17:29:26 <Phantom_Hoover> The collision rate is fairly low, but it tends to grow a big cloud where it hits and obscure itself.
17:29:28 <alise> In fact, it is uber-slow with quicklife altogether.
17:29:41 <alise> Or rather it just doesn't update the display.
17:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> And *every* GTK Golly I've used was slow when zoomed in.
17:29:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: This one is slow *zoomed out*.
17:29:55 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no, it makes a standard ash cloud, which I then shoot with a Gosper gun to see what happens. <-- hm, so now I know who to blame the next time flights are cancelled due to that
17:29:59 <alise> It literally *does not update the display* on step=10^5.
17:30:00 <alise> Ever.
17:30:23 <Vorpal> alise, quicklife?
17:30:30 <alise> Vorpal: The other white meat.
17:30:34 <Vorpal> alise, hashlife would have 8^n usually iirc
17:30:35 * Phantom_Hoover hashes.
17:30:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Does 10^5 update the display for you when zoomed out to scale=1:1?
17:30:53 <alise> in quicklife?
17:30:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: Quicklife is never good for more than about 10 seconds.
17:31:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
17:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It does.
17:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> But not very often.
17:32:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I saw some degenerate case where quicklife beat hashlife easily
17:32:24 <Vorpal> forgot where
17:32:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, a random fill is probably best stabilised with Quicklife.
17:32:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed
17:33:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this was some long-term random exhaust thingy iirc
17:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, lots of junk headed towards the gun now.
17:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover> It's going to die soon.
17:33:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how do you build resilient life structures?
17:33:36 <Vorpal> is it even possible?
17:33:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If I scribble with 1:1 scale and 10^4 steps (just random lines), press play: the next time it updates it's still life.
17:33:40 <alise> Do you get this?
17:33:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, stick huge ash clouds around them :P
17:33:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm doing SCIENCE here, you know!
17:34:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is ash cloud something specific?
17:34:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Not really, it's just the medium-density mix of still-lifes and oscillators you get when stuff explodes.
17:35:14 <Vorpal> ah
17:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It's very difficult to get a sustained reaction in it, though.
17:35:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Surely a dense packing of still lifes and oscillators is even better?
17:35:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, self repairing life structures would be interesting
17:35:36 <Vorpal> on macro scale I mean
17:36:01 <Vorpal> alise, might interact causing chain reactions perhaps?
17:36:39 <alise> not if you place them non-stupidly
17:36:42 <alise> but maybe
17:36:57 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, dense blocks burn very quickly.
17:36:57 <Vorpal> alise, I mean, if there is some void in between perhaps certain patterns will die out instead of causing a chain reaction. Just a conjecture
17:37:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: OTOH, it random fills very quickly
17:37:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Ash is good exactly because it's what's left over after chaos dies out; it's by definition the stuff that supports reactions the worst.
17:37:53 <alise> ~1600x1600 cloud filled to 50% in less than a second.
17:38:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Just tile the same block of ash.
17:38:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: How quickly does yours do that?
17:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Instantaneously.
17:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Ish.
17:39:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I was using a 2% fill.
17:39:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Same with 50%.
17:40:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So, 1:1 scale, 10^4 steps, draw a lot of random scribbles -- next visual update, is it all still life and oscillators? Do the oscillators never seem to move after that?
17:41:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is it possible to have sustained chaos in life?
17:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> If the oscillators have an even period, like most common ones, they will never seem to move at all.
17:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, define "chaos".
17:41:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you used it above
17:41:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Answer the rest,then. :P
17:41:55 <alise> *rest, then.
17:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Then no, since normal chaotic patterns are short-lived.
17:42:15 <Vorpal> hm
17:42:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why is that the case?
17:42:28 <Phantom_Hoover> You can have puffers etc. which have very messy and aperiodic output, though.
17:42:32 <Phantom_Hoover> So that might count.
17:42:36 <Vorpal> hm
17:42:49 -!- tombom has joined.
17:42:50 <Phantom_Hoover> But they leave an ash cloud rather than anything active.
17:43:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so any chaos needs to be "fed" then all the time?
17:43:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically.
17:43:24 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's self-sustaining, odds are it's not chaotic.
17:43:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, has it been proven that chaotic behaviour can't be self sustaining?
17:44:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Not rigorously AFAIK.
17:44:07 <Vorpal> hm
17:44:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Primarily because "chaotic" is vague.
17:44:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how does chaos theory define it?
17:44:39 <Vorpal> not the same I guess
17:45:19 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
17:47:40 <Vorpal> hm, is there a name for a "garden of eden pattern, except that it is a still life, and thus have itself as predecessor, but no other patterns"
17:47:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ^
17:47:53 <Vorpal> and are any such known?
17:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
17:48:24 <Vorpal> to which question
17:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait.
17:48:27 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
17:48:32 <Vorpal> to both?
17:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Not known, anyway.
17:48:39 <Vorpal> ah
17:48:43 <Vorpal> and not named?
17:48:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think there's a name, either.
17:48:56 <Vorpal> okay, bbl in an hour
17:49:06 <Phantom_Hoover> A stable Garden of Eden, probably.
17:51:01 * Phantom_Hoover builds a massive chained Gosper and fires it at the ash cloud.
17:51:32 <Phantom_Hoover> My money's on an instant chaotic reaction, followed by the gun being destroyed by gliders coming off it.
17:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep...
17:53:07 <Ilari> What's "stable" garden of eden?
17:53:45 <Phantom_Hoover> One which is a still-life, but has no other predecessors.
17:53:56 <fizzie> One where they didn't put that silly tree in.
17:54:59 <alise> <3 fizzie
17:55:06 <alise> `addquote <Ilari> What's "stable" garden of eden? <fizzie> One where they didn't put that silly tree in.
17:56:05 <Ilari> Wonder what that kind of pattern would look like and what would be the smallest example...
17:56:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably a still-life that looks like it should be chaotic.
17:56:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Suggestion: Use the binary for now.
17:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> But I got the CVS version working perfectly for 64-bitness with g++!
17:58:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 64-bitness won't speed it up.
17:58:30 <alise> I don't think it uses many registers.
17:59:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Trust me, the binary release is the smoothest.
17:59:20 <HackEgo> 229|<Ilari> What's "stable" garden of eden? <fizzie> One where they didn't put that silly tree in.
17:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I haven't had any issues with the CVS version, so I'll just stick to it anyway.
17:59:56 <Phantom_Hoover> For one thing, it has more patterns.
18:00:23 <alise> Relink me that RLE one last time?
18:02:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pweeze? :3
18:02:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll give you the AWESOME one!
18:02:43 -!- Harpyon has joined.
18:03:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://pastebin.com/n2kUjRyg
18:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> 4.5 times the glidery goodness!
18:03:47 <alise> I WANT THE LESS AWESOME ONE
18:04:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: wait, what?
18:04:24 <alise> that's not a gun
18:04:26 <alise> oh wait
18:04:29 <alise> my clipboard gets truncated
18:04:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover:
18:04:45 <alise> x = 38, y = 1, rule = B3/S23
18:04:45 <alise> 15ob7ob14o!
18:04:47 <alise> try that :-D
18:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> http://pastebin.com/kfH1mw7M is the loest one.
18:04:58 <Phantom_Hoover> *less awesome
18:06:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The first one does not look like a glider gun o_O
18:06:18 <alise> Indeed it isn't.
18:06:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that's because of the line numbers, I think.
18:06:59 <alise> i downloaded the raw link, dude
18:07:29 <alise> oh great
18:07:34 <alise> it has a doctype in it
18:07:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It works for me...
18:07:36 <alise> the raw link
18:07:36 <alise> XD
18:08:03 <alise> there
18:08:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So I create an ash cloud by waiting until 10% random noise stabilises, right?
18:08:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you can use any random fill that's not too sparse.
18:09:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I was actually using a 2% fill, it seems.
18:09:59 <Phantom_Hoover> But I'm trying to see what happens when you hit a fairly sparse cloud with a dense stream here.
18:10:33 <alise> lawl the glider gun dies
18:10:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
18:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it sustains a chaotic reaction at the end rather than destroying still lifes.
18:12:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Golly needs an ash cloud generator.
18:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> What, by random filling and stopping any escaping gliders?
18:14:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Random fill, then simulate only that area, wrapping.
18:14:29 <alise> Until it turns into oscillators or takes like 3498573945734985793845934759 generations as a safeguard.
18:14:34 <alise> (obvious oscillators, that is)
18:14:52 <alise> With hashlife on hyperspeed, so it should be quick.
18:14:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I think you can do that yourself.
18:15:05 <alise> You can, but it's tedious.
18:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I'm not as sure about the Hashlife.
18:15:12 * alise is filling a huuuuge area right now.
18:15:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Write a script for it?
18:15:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: How many Gosper guns can you stack without getting bored?
18:15:30 <alise> Go do that number. Gogogo.
18:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait!
18:15:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm doing SCIENCE!
18:15:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: SO AM I
18:15:51 <alise> Write a script for it
18:16:01 <Phantom_Hoover> With a high-period gun rather than a low-period.
18:16:27 <Phantom_Hoover> And I can get exponential growth for the Gospers pretty easily, so there's no immediate limit.
18:17:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I mean in terms of you making it, how bored you get.
18:18:08 <alise> Say, 100 of them would be good.
18:18:20 <alise> I have a 12,657 x 6,401 block of ash to destroy.
18:18:24 <alise> Give or take a bit.
18:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Chained Gospers are _useless_ for destroying ash.
18:18:49 <ais523> streams of gliders destroy ash, rather than just making it worse?
18:18:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not 100 of them.
18:18:56 <alise> lawl, this is so slow
18:18:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes 100 of them.
18:19:02 <alise> it's counting up generations like seconds on a clock
18:19:08 <alise> with hyperspeed hashlife
18:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> The gliders feed the chaos from the first collisions with the cloud, so you just end up with a giant column of junk until a glider gets ejected up one of the barrels and destroys the whole thing.
18:20:33 <alise> BAH
18:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence my current tests with a 160-odd period stream.
18:21:24 <alise> LWSS gun!
18:22:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that brings up the issue of beehive crystals.
18:22:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Which occur distressingly frequently.
18:23:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps two streams next to each other with high periods.
18:23:03 <alise> SO SLOW
18:23:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps SURROUNDING IT WITH DEATH
18:23:27 <alise> Literally surrounding it with TONS OF GUNS
18:23:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Rate of fire _does not help destroy things_.
18:23:59 <alise> Also, anything to "crystals" here other than the obvious?
18:24:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: SHADDAP
18:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> A beehive crystal is a formation of beehives that grows towards the source when hit by a low-enough period glider stream
18:24:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm.
18:24:50 <Phantom_Hoover> p30 is too low, though.
18:25:17 <Phantom_Hoover> But I'm using a p360 gun right now, so it's a potential problem.
18:25:19 <alise> Life defence system: A bunch of eaters of different kinds, to catch the newbies packed as closely as possible to a low depth around the exterior, then a GIGANTIC ASH CLOUD, then another bunch of eaters.
18:25:27 <alise> Whatever's inside is basically invincible.
18:27:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Beehive crystals tend to be stopped when the head is stopped by some junk, and the glider stream destroys the rest.
18:29:00 <alise> what IS a beehive crystal anyway?
18:30:25 <alise> http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/ca/replicators/b36s245.html Building a glider gun from replicators.
18:30:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Patterns/Oscillators/glider-stream-crystal.rle
18:31:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Builds then destroys beehive crystals over and over again.
18:31:11 <alise> omg, that replicator is so pretty to watch
18:31:12 <alise> do so
18:31:16 <alise> (the images link to RLE files)
18:32:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: name some trivially conservative rules, btw?
18:32:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, B/S0123345678
18:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't be bothered to correct that.
18:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> HPP in the weaker formulation.
18:33:27 <alise> What about B0/S12345678?
18:33:30 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> HPP in the weaker formulation. ;; ??
18:33:32 <alise> *?
18:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Of the conservation rule.
18:34:02 <alise> ah
18:34:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Strong version: "all state counts are constant." Weak version: "there exists no pattern which will evolve such that only one state count changes."
18:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Strong and weak are equivalent for 2-state CAs, but not for 3 states.
18:34:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Or more.
18:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> HPP fits the weak version AFAIK, but not the strong.
18:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, wait.
18:38:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Weak doesn't work very well.
18:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> *state count disregarding the ground state?
18:39:41 <Phantom_Hoover> That isn't very nice.
18:41:14 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, the p360 stream got through 25,000 cells of low-density ash without a problem.
18:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Let's try it with high-density!
18:49:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It's holding out surprisingly well...
18:53:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I did need to intervene to destroy a beehive crystal early on, but since then it's been making inroads
18:53:36 <Vorpal> back
18:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ...And it has successfully drilled through a 50% density ash cloud..
18:54:48 <Phantom_Hoover> In about 6 million generations, but still.
18:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: build slow guns.
18:55:11 <alise> a TC conservative CA would be amazing... well
18:55:21 <alise> a conservative CA that is TC if you have an infinite tiling, say
18:55:31 <alise> (still lifes that can be converted into others and read, i.e. infinite memory)
18:55:48 <alise> or not even infinite tiling, just an infinite downwards line
18:57:34 <Phantom_Hoover> You could make it TC even without that.
18:57:40 <Vorpal> what is a good way to destroy ash hm?
18:57:48 <Vorpal> apart from select and clear, which is cheating
18:57:55 <Phantom_Hoover> By building a Minsky machine with sliding-block registers.
18:58:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, I just got through a lot of high-density ash with a high-period stream.
18:58:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Huh? Hm, right.
18:58:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, what?
18:58:38 <alise> So the distance between X and Y is the value of XY, that is?
18:58:41 <alise> How would you compute with it?
18:58:47 <alise> Hmm.
18:58:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, won't that make it worse by creating new ash?
18:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, it threw off some gliders which you would have to watch out for.
18:59:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also "beehive crystal"?
18:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> But a thin line of ash would probably be enough.
18:59:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not on life wiki it seems
18:59:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, line of beehives that grows when hit with a high-enough period glider stream/
18:59:54 <Vorpal> There is no page titled "beehive crystal". You can create this page.
19:00:17 <Vorpal> no full text search matches either
19:00:41 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, line of beehives that grows when hit with a high-enough period glider stream/
19:00:58 <Vorpal> alise, yes but then that definition should be added to life wiki maybe?
19:01:09 <Phantom_Hoover> It might be under a different na,e
19:01:11 <Phantom_Hoover> *name
19:01:39 <Vorpal> hm
19:05:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, it doesn't seem to be there.
19:10:06 <alise> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Creation_of_Niggers -- H. P. Lovecraft, 1912
19:10:25 <alise> What NOW, Cthulhu?! You're less ghastly a beast than the Nigger!
19:10:31 <alise> And you have a less strange name!
19:12:47 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:12:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So, Life life.
19:13:26 <Phantom_Hoover> RuleTable MOCKS me.
19:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I want a permutation symmetry, dammit!
19:15:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Reversible, conservative, TC CA.
19:15:35 <alise> FEEL THE PAIN
19:15:58 <alise> That would be even closer to "real" physics :P
19:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAARGh
19:16:26 <Phantom_Hoover> The very thought hurts my brain!
19:16:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, just because you can't add cells doesn't mean you have to eat food.
19:16:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
19:16:36 <alise> You can just have a glider or whatever that moves forever.
19:16:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence the MRM comment.
19:16:41 <alise> You said conservative would be good to enforce food-gathering.
19:16:43 <alise> But that's not true.
19:16:46 <alise> MRM?
19:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> To *reproduce*.
19:17:00 <Vorpal> alise, how can it be TC if it is conservative?
19:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, MRM with sliding-block registers.
19:17:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ahh.
19:17:19 * Phantom_Hoover → food
19:17:19 <alise> Vorpal: What Phantom_Hoover said.
19:17:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, MRM being?
19:17:31 <alise> minksy register machine
19:17:34 <Vorpal> ah
19:17:36 <alise> *minsky
19:17:38 <Vorpal> hm
19:17:59 <Vorpal> is that the one with bignum registers? Or is that another one?
19:18:21 <alise> yes
19:18:32 <Vorpal> actually there is an obvious way to do it conservatively. Encode data as distance between some live cells
19:18:40 <alise> that's what Phantom_Hoover said
19:18:42 <Vorpal> ah
19:18:50 <alise> i think
19:18:51 <alise> pretty sure
19:18:56 <Vorpal> okay
19:21:44 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
19:21:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:26:25 <alise> To repeat to PH when he gets back:
19:26:33 <alise> A reversible CA would make glider synthesis hard.
19:26:45 <alise> For instance, you couldn't synthesize an oscillator or a still life.
19:26:53 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: No route to host).
19:27:00 <alise> Or indeed generate one at all; it would have to be in the initial configuration.
19:27:01 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:27:10 <alise> Additionally, if there is *any* way to produce a pattern or effect, it is the *only* way.
19:28:34 <alise> www.conwaylife.com/pattern.asp?...
19:28:35 <alise> >_<
19:31:59 -!- EgoBot has joined.
19:32:08 -!- HackEgo has joined.
19:34:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:34:50 <Vorpal> alise, what's with the ...?
19:35:00 <Phantom_Hoover> 11:26:45 <alise> For instance, you couldn't synthesize an oscillator or a still life. ← I think it's theoretically possible.
19:35:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not in reversible no
19:35:18 <alise> Vorpal: truncated irrelevance
19:35:24 <Vorpal> alise, aha
19:35:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: still life X has parent X
19:35:30 <alise> has no parent Y (last step of synthesis)
19:35:30 <Phantom_Hoover> 2 spaceships collide and throw off another (different) spaceship and drop a still life.
19:35:34 <alise> Vorpal: the >_< was at .asp
19:35:39 <alise> not even .aspx
19:35:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah yes
19:35:42 <Vorpal> that would work
19:35:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i don't see how that would work
19:35:56 <Vorpal> alise, ah
19:35:58 <alise> that would have a parent of still life X being last step of that synthesis
19:36:01 <alise> well
19:36:03 <alise> wait, no
19:36:05 <alise> if there's other things around
19:36:11 <alise> hmm, cool
19:36:16 <Phantom_Hoover> That's why there's the other spaceship.
19:36:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Which would only be creatable through that reaction.
19:37:07 <Vorpal> hm any reversible CA would be a conservative right?
19:37:09 <Vorpal> or?
19:37:10 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
19:37:12 <ais523> it's much like using dump tape elements in Reversible Brainfuck to compile regular Brainfuck commands into it
19:37:15 <Vorpal> hm
19:37:39 <ais523> Vorpal: simple counterexample: take a reversible CA that is conservative and uses two colours, make it swap black and white every step but otherwise act the same
19:37:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It's essentially the same concept as the bit bucket for reversible Boolean gates.
19:37:52 <Vorpal> ais523, ah right
19:38:25 <Vorpal> bbl
19:38:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, that makes the conservative element cooler!
19:39:41 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to lose energy every time you store data.
19:41:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: in the conservative civilisation, they have drones that move the still life debris from machines out where nobody can see it
19:41:04 <ais523> or store it in a way you could retrieve it again, I suppose
19:41:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Designing a CA with 3 undecidable properties isn't easy, though.
19:41:14 <alise> you don't have to design for TC
19:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, waitaminute.
19:41:22 <alise> just keep designing for the other two and select ones that show complex behaviour
19:41:28 <alise> then hope fervently
19:41:45 <Phantom_Hoover> We can make the reaction reversible for the things in the universe.
19:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Collide the junk ship with the still-life and get the two ships that were thrown off originally.
19:43:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "Can", as in "if you're the most amazing CA designer ever".
19:44:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes
19:44:14 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, that's not plausible.
19:44:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also in this category: "Running it backwards *obeys the forwards transition rules*! SOMEHOW!"
19:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's still consistent with what we're aiming at.
19:44:38 <alise> (Although that's actually in the opposite category.)
19:44:43 <alise> Obeys the... backwards transition rules?
19:44:45 <alise> Ooh.
19:44:50 -!- Gregor_ has joined.
19:44:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If the way to reverse something can be expressed as a CA
19:44:54 <alise> then you have two CAs
19:44:58 <alise> which are time-reversals of each other
19:44:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Running it backwards and inverted!
19:44:59 <alise> hawt
19:45:02 <alise> (is this possible?)
19:45:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: DAY AND NIGHT MISTER :P
19:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> No, that's just inverted.
19:45:25 <Phantom_Hoover> This is invert-time.
19:46:38 <alise> Yes.
19:46:44 -!- Gregor_ has changed nick to Gregor.
19:46:49 -!- augur has joined.
19:46:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But yes: is it possible for a reversible CA's reverse-rules to be CA themselves?
19:46:58 <alise> *to be a CA themselves?
19:47:01 <alise> Of the same "class".
19:47:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Not sure...
19:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Id obviously qualifies.
19:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's too trivial to be interesting.
19:49:20 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGkkyKZVzug
19:49:21 <alise> 16-bit ALU in minecraft
19:49:24 <alise> Vorpal: fizzie: ^
19:49:31 <alise> It's a COMPUTER CITY!
19:50:06 <Vorpal> night
19:50:12 <alise> Vorpal: DID YOU NOT SEE
19:50:16 <alise> WATCH THE VIDEO!! YOU MUST :|
19:50:20 <alise> It is HUGE
19:54:19 -!- olsner_ has joined.
19:55:28 <alise> Also features pig abuse
19:56:16 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:58:58 <fizzie> Youtube is being slow, but I'll pause it and let it load.
19:59:31 <alise> http://www.instantelevatormusic.com/ for Windows!
19:59:39 <alise> Instant Elevator Music will automatically play elevator music while you wait for programs to open, files to copy, and downloads to download.
20:00:47 <fizzie> The water physics are so incredibly realistic: http://zem.fi/~fis/realistic-water.png
20:02:07 <fizzie> Also, apparently if you do a 2x2 pit, and unbucket two "fountains" to the opposite corners, they'll fill the two other squares too, and then you'll have a 2x2 block of still water, from which you can take infinite buckets of water from, since any hole you make will be semi-instantly refilled.
20:03:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay, got competetive Life working.
20:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Neat, you can get 2-colour gliders.
20:05:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, it's glide-reflective-inversion symmetric.
20:06:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> There are a lot of coöperative objects, actually.
20:09:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Do post the rules.
20:10:00 <alise> In Golly format.
20:10:01 -!- antivigilante has joined.
20:10:08 -!- |EOF| has joined.
20:10:13 <antivigilante> hello
20:10:16 <|EOF|> oh my gos
20:10:22 * oerjan shoots the antivigilante
20:10:31 <oerjan> i mean hi
20:10:37 <|EOF|> were you already here?
20:11:15 <alise> * antivigilante (~antivigil@63-225-203-9.phnx.qwest.net) has joined #esoteric
20:11:16 <alise> * |EOF| (461e569b@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #esoteric
20:11:23 <alise> antivigilante: who you hi
20:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, http://pastebin.com/1rYZcC7j is the tree, http://pastebin.com/LAJNVmuy the table I compiled it from.
20:12:52 <alise> so the first one goes into golly?
20:13:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: WHERE I SAVE IT
20:13:57 <|EOF|> hi alise :P)
20:14:19 <|EOF|> (:P)
20:16:04 <antivigilante> was not until just not
20:16:33 <antivigilante> **now
20:17:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, stick it into Rules/Whatever.tree
20:17:58 <alise> okay
20:17:59 <|EOF|> ...
20:18:00 <alise> is the table worse or sth?
20:18:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: give it a name :P
20:18:16 <alise> Life and Death?
20:18:32 <|EOF|> ima make a an HDCP master key implementation in silicon
20:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, taken.
20:18:51 <alise> |EOF|: nobody cares
20:19:04 <|EOF|> then intel's going to go to my house and murder me
20:19:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'd say Death, but that'd be more suited to an actual CA.
20:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> FightForLife?
20:19:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Last Cell Standing?
20:19:27 <|EOF|> lol
20:19:32 <alise> Mortal? Mortal Danger?
20:20:13 <|EOF|> ima go do several drugs in series and brag about it
20:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> |EOF|, you're not CakeProphet, are you?
20:21:12 <|EOF|> maybe
20:21:30 <|EOF|> what's it to you?
20:23:12 <alise> |EOF|: if they incapacitate you to the point where you go away, I approve.
20:24:03 <antivigilante> THERE CAKE IS A LIE!
20:24:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, smashing gliders into stuff doesn't change its colour.
20:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I may have found a use of the megaGosper!
20:25:10 <alise> antivigilante: *THEIR, unless you're being comprehensible.
20:25:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Dood, I need a name.
20:26:57 <antivigilante> AlabasterSmurfsicle
20:26:59 <|EOF|> lulz
20:30:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: :|
20:31:36 <Phantom_Hoover> LifeAndSoulOfTheParty?
20:32:07 * Phantom_Hoover realises these rules don't quite work as intended.
20:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Fixed.
20:34:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Link?
20:34:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the 2-colour gliders don't work any more.
20:35:03 <alise> Aww.
20:35:05 -!- |EOF| has changed nick to CakeProphet.
20:35:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Mortal Cellbat
20:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Hang on, I want to streamline the table.
20:39:48 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, http://pastebin.com/TiY2HeQe but you'll need to compile it to a tree with RuleTableToTree.
20:43:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: How about you do that :P
20:43:18 <alise> Fiine
20:43:29 <alise> Ugh, it won't read stdin.
20:43:31 <alise> How shitty.
20:43:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Name it :P
20:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> DoubleLife?
20:44:26 <oerjan> CakeProphet: not being on the right freenode account makes that a _teeny_ bit unconvincing
20:44:37 <CakeProphet> :)
20:44:44 <CakeProphet> indeed
20:44:54 <CakeProphet> passwords are funny that way
20:47:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: okay.
20:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> It's another one of those things which someone else has definitely invented, but I can't actually find.
20:47:46 <oerjan> incidentally afaict the new server software seems to make it a lot more awkward to find out whether someone's nick _is_ identified - whois gives me the account you're logged in as but i have to ask nickserv to tell whether your nick actually belongs to it...
20:48:11 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/.golly$ /usr/lib/golly/RuleTableToTree DoubleLife
20:48:11 <alise> Error: Error reading Rules/DoubleLife.table on line 3: symmetries:permute
20:48:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover
20:48:24 <oerjan> well i guess i could _just_ ask nickserv
20:48:30 <alise> oerjan: or look at their ident
20:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, hmm, permute might only be CVS.
20:48:40 <alise> hmm, no wait
20:48:42 <alise> that doesn't help
20:48:46 <alise> i think
20:48:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: FIX IT :|
20:49:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I'll give you the tree...
20:49:46 <oerjan> alise: oh hm. /whois in irssi actually doesn't seem to tell that
20:49:53 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, http://pastebin.com/HdTVUnYp
20:50:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Put it in DoubleLife.tree.
20:50:34 <alise> oerjan: doesn't seem to work here either :D
20:51:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Example file? :P
20:51:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, haven't got any...
20:52:21 <alise> Make some :|
20:52:24 <alise> What are the rules?
20:53:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Birth and survival are the same, but a cell becomes the same colour as the majority of its neighbours.
20:57:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: .colors, please?
20:57:20 <alise> or does it not have any?
20:57:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't bother.
20:57:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Red and yellow is good enough for me.
20:57:40 <alise> lawl
20:58:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Does random fill work?
20:59:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
20:59:19 <alise> ^_^
20:59:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: now how do i count the population of each? >_>
21:00:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know...
21:00:13 <alise> and how do i stop it showing everything as red when i zoom out :P
21:00:13 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC there is a script somewhere which can do it.
21:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And Golly shows everything with state 1's colours when it can't give each cell a pixel.
21:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Try the script archive for the population counter.
21:01:30 -!- hailtothethief has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:01:32 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 100% random fill whomfg
21:01:34 <alise> so pretty
21:01:47 <alise> so epileptic
21:02:25 <Phantom_Hoover> histogram.py looks like it gives cell counts on a state-by-state basis.
21:03:03 <alise> 80% random fill = instadeath
21:04:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: go to 1:1 in hexadecimal.mc, scribble a bit in the corner of one cell
21:04:21 <alise> play
21:04:25 <alise> watch catastrophe
21:04:29 <alise> still manages to get 00 up though
21:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I went through this phase ages ago.
21:05:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's fun, but it gets boring after a while.
21:07:54 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:08:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, I know.
21:08:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But it's still amusing.
21:08:57 <alise> Will it ever get to the next number?!
21:09:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Try sticking a block into the centre of the metacell.
21:09:09 -!- nooga has joined.
21:09:22 <Phantom_Hoover> The LWSSes hit it and everything explodes.
21:10:50 <alise> :D
21:11:01 <alise> CARNAGE
21:12:09 <Phantom_Hoover> You can also sabotage the edge-detectors on the metacells and something interesting happens, but I forget what.
21:16:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Changing one pixel in the complex pattern of the top-left cell makes everything go normally until that cell is turned on.
21:16:17 <alise> Then whoo boy
21:16:21 <alise> Everything leaks out
21:17:25 <Phantom_Hoover> This is why I went on at such length about sparseness and redundancy for Lifeforms.
21:17:53 <alise> Yep. :P
21:21:14 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:21:31 -!- augur has joined.
21:24:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:25:20 <alise> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627653.800-first-replicating-creature-spawned-in-life-simulator.html?full=true
21:25:24 -!- augur has joined.
21:25:24 <alise> only gets the first few paragraphs, but he
21:25:25 <alise> *eh
21:25:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover
21:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I saw that when it was first published.
21:25:42 <alise> bah :P
21:26:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I felt vaguely like I had met a celevrity.
21:26:05 <Phantom_Hoover> *b
21:27:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: eh, i've talked to TimBL, that's probably my height of celebrity-feeling
21:27:33 <alise> (he's in, or at least used to be in, #foaf quite a lot)
21:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I once had lunch with Dr Bunhead.
21:27:55 <alise> that's more like an anti-achievement :P
21:27:57 <alise> i once fucked bill clinton
21:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I was once the Prime Minister.
21:28:25 <alise> I once created the universe.
21:29:14 <alise> http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/Kids.html
21:29:20 <alise> possibly my favourite thing of all time
21:29:25 <alise> "At CERN, people study High Energy Physics. That is the physics of really really small particles - particles much smaller than atoms. It turns out that if you want to investigate really really small things, you need huge machines called accelerators to smash particles together really hard. Then you have huge gadgets (about the size of a house) which detects what happens, and what bits fly off, so you can figure out whether you managed to make any new types o
21:29:25 <alise> f particle.
21:29:25 <alise> CERN is a big place - a few thousand people work there. Many of them are scientists whose jobs are at universities in different places in the world, and they come to CERN because they need to use the huge accelerators at CERN."
21:30:25 <alise> @@@ This really needs lots of nice diagrams @@@
21:30:51 * Phantom_Hoover still wants to make up Lifeform physics.
21:31:08 <alise> "But I am doing a project where we have to get "primary" sources, which means I have to interview the subject. And I'm doing it on you. So I have to interview you."
21:31:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Make movable ash.
21:31:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Nigh-on impossible.
21:31:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Another kind of movable defence, then.
21:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Loads of moving spaceships is basically the only thing which would work very well.
21:33:52 <Phantom_Hoover> And by "very well" I mean "would destroy anything behind it if it clipped a glider.
21:33:56 <Phantom_Hoover> *"
21:34:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: UC + precalculated ash
21:35:12 <alise> + ash ... destroyer? never mind
21:35:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Would take forever to move, but it could work.
21:35:17 <alise> it could leave behind a trail of ash somehow, i guess
21:35:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh!
21:35:30 <alise> like have its own secret path through the ash's membrane
21:35:32 <alise> that lets it sort of
21:35:32 <alise> go down
21:35:35 <alise> go right
21:35:36 <alise> go up
21:35:39 <alise> and build more ash after that
21:35:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ooh?
21:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Have a standard puffer moving just in front and to the side of the command ship.
21:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't throw off any gliders IIRC, so you get some fairly high-density ash.
21:40:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you could shoot the engine pretty easily.
21:49:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Can you have a puffer that goes
21:49:14 <alise> down down down STOP at barrier
21:49:17 <alise> and then starts going upwards
21:49:19 <alise> a bit to the right?
21:49:25 <alise> ad infinitum
21:49:29 <alise> with little blockers at the top
21:49:37 <alise> that the puffer crashing into blocks
21:49:38 <alise> or something
21:49:39 <alise> oh
21:49:42 <alise> just have a continuous glider stream in front
21:49:43 <alise> or something
21:50:15 <Phantom_Hoover> So it zigzags?
21:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there's the glider-producing switch engine.
21:50:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It leaves a trail of debris and fires gliders forwards.
21:51:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it only moves at c/12.
21:51:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's okay, whatever's inside will be slower.
21:51:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Although it has to angle right so that the ship never crashes into it... somehow.
21:51:46 <alise> Is that possible?
21:51:53 <alise> Oh, just have an opening in the middle that the ship can pass through.
21:51:55 <alise> Or something.
21:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Switch engines move diagonally at c/12, and they can be stabilised into Corderships, which are almost certainly capable of making circuitry.
21:54:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:00:15 <alise> fork
22:00:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: what's the shortest stick that grows indefinitely?
22:00:42 <alise> is there one?
22:00:45 <alise> i guess that's a replicator :P
22:00:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Shortest stick?
22:01:06 <alise> just
22:01:07 <alise> straight line
22:01:08 <alise> run it
22:01:10 <alise> it expands forever
22:01:18 <Phantom_Hoover> It's on Wikipedia IIRC.
22:01:24 <alise> unhelpful :P
22:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It fires a switch engine on each side, so it's not a replicator.
22:01:50 <alise> [[*starts plotting how to create a spaceship that can inject its own program into other Gemini spaceships*]]
22:01:52 <alise> SUCH A COOL IDEA
22:01:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: oh yeah that, i think i've seen that. maybe.
22:03:59 * Phantom_Hoover ponders a virus in Langton's Loops.
22:05:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:05:59 <alise> "If anyone is interested, I've made a script to convert patterns consisting of well-spaced blocks, eaters, beehives, boats, tubs and loaves into a Geminoid glider synthesis. Andrew's original pattern looks like this has been done manually, with some primitive recursion in the YAML program. ('Primitive recursion' is the technical term for this; I'm not disparaging your work!"
22:06:00 <alise> coool
22:06:04 <alise> *:) at the end
22:07:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Are magnets electrically neutral?
22:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm pretty sure they are, but...
22:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> You should be able to test with a charged copper sphere and a magnet, actually.
22:09:25 <alise> "In point of fact, I've gotten through a couple of design cycles for a Gemini gun now, and oddly enough it looks like it will run faster than a Gemini does for the first half of the first construction"
22:09:25 <olsner_> I think they're electrically evil
22:09:27 <alise> gemini gun
22:09:28 <alise> lifegasm
22:09:55 <alise> "However, there are quite a number of common still lifes that it cannot construct, severely limiting its use." ;; wrong!
22:10:09 <alise> construct a UC not using those that happens to have a program to create that still life pre-loaded >:)
22:10:16 <alise> maybe
22:10:26 <ais523> what's a Gemini?
22:10:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, the only existing class of Life replicators.
22:11:00 <alise> http://www.cranemtn.com/life/files/gemi ... 820116.zip
22:11:00 <alise> http://www.cranemtn.com/life/files/gemi ... 076540.zip
22:11:00 <alise> http://www.cranemtn.com/life/files/gemi ... 712268.zip
22:11:06 <alise> ais523: it's a Game of Life spaceship
22:11:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the Gemini gun has been made.
22:11:09 <alise> it works simply:
22:11:13 <alise> first, it creates a copy of itself
22:11:17 <ais523> oh, programmable devices that create arbitrary objects via glider collisions?
22:11:18 <alise> and then, the copy erases the previous copy
22:11:20 <alise> this repeats forever
22:11:29 <ais523> hmm, with an interesting twist
22:11:32 <alise> ais523: already done, and not so arbitrary here
22:11:40 <alise> ais523: the thing is that replicators in life are HARD
22:11:46 <alise> and nobody was sure they were possible until a few years ago
22:11:54 <alise> whereas in most Life-like automata, they're very simple
22:11:57 <ais523> is it a replicator if it deletes itself?
22:12:00 <alise> this is a *momentous* occasion, its discovery
22:12:04 <alise> ais523: sure, you can easily disable that
22:12:07 <alise> it creates itself
22:12:09 <alise> and THEN deletes itself
22:12:11 <alise> not in the process of
22:12:13 <ais523> also, infinite vertical column of black is a replicator
22:12:14 <alise> afterwards
22:12:21 <alise> wow you're boring :)
22:12:24 <alise> finite, of course
22:12:31 <alise> this is a *big* deal
22:12:38 <Phantom_Hoover> We've known that replicators *exist* for years.
22:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Building one was the tricky part.
22:12:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i said years
22:12:59 <alise> ais523: its speed, incidentally, is (5120,1024)c/33699586
22:13:03 <ais523> yep, it's "simply" a matter of taking an arbitrary-constructor-object, then quining it
22:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Not a few years, AFAIK.
22:13:06 <alise> that can be improved a bit and reduced arbitrarily
22:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> A decade, at least.
22:13:14 <alise> ais523: you can't have such a constructor
22:13:17 <alise> not arbitrary
22:13:22 <alise> glider synthesis is limited
22:13:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: before the Spartan?
22:13:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
22:13:42 <alise> alright then
22:13:42 <ais523> alise: well, OK
22:13:45 <alise> wait, wasn't it 2004?
22:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC universal construction was proven *ages* ago.
22:13:48 <ais523> you'd have to make it out of synthesizable components
22:13:58 <alise> ais523: you know, everyone else who liked Life had a heart attack when this happened :P
22:14:12 <alise> "John Conway proved that such a pattern exists in Life, and an outline of the proof can be found in Winning Ways for Your Mathematical Plays and The Recursive Universe."
22:14:14 <alise> Alright then.
22:14:23 <alise> Since at least 1982.
22:14:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I had just started following the Life forums when it was posted.
22:15:05 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how long it would take to modify one of those TC Life computers with a synthesizer arm to be glider-synthesizable?
22:15:15 <ais523> after that, making it replicate would be relatively easy
22:15:20 <Phantom_Hoover> They *are* glider-synthesisable.
22:15:27 <ais523> well, then
22:15:42 <ais523> you'd also have to encode an initial program into it, but you could just glider that across after it was made
22:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The Spartan UCC could have been made into a replicator, but it would have taken too long.
22:16:03 <ais523> to write or to run?
22:16:23 <alise> ais523: it's not that hard, really
22:16:32 <alise> gemini took a simpler approach, though
22:16:33 <alise> more restricted
22:16:41 <alise> it's not a UTM, i don't think
22:16:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: which gemini gun is the coolest?
22:17:02 <ais523> nor do you have to be to produce a quine
22:17:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know anything about them, other than that the image I looked at was labelled with Comic Sans and that this made me angry.
22:18:17 -!- CakeProphet has changed nick to |THE.
22:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It feels weird to think that I've only known about Life for 4 years at the most.
22:18:41 <Sgeo> I've known about Life for much about Life
22:18:41 -!- |THE has changed nick to |EOF|.
22:18:45 <ais523> is it /that/ lifechanging?
22:18:58 <alise> yes
22:19:05 <alise> athough not as much as wolfram things
22:19:07 <alise> *thinks
22:19:08 <Sgeo> Fantasized about one of my elementary school friends doing... stuff with Life
22:19:32 <alise> "LIFE PORN"
22:19:41 <Sgeo> No. Not in a dirty way
22:19:50 <alise> "Non-dirty Life porn!"
22:19:53 <Phantom_Hoover> You think Wolfram is fundamentally right?
22:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait.
22:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Just saw that correction.
22:20:15 <alise> lawl
22:20:23 <alise> wow, i've left the hexadecimal running all this time
22:20:26 <alise> the carnage
22:20:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You know there's a metafier script in the Python collection?
22:21:14 <ais523> instead of a universal computer, you'd just need a programmable synthesizer
22:21:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It takes any B/S rule pattern and makes metacells which simulate it in Life.
22:21:19 <alise> gemini gun is frickin' huge
22:21:20 <ais523> which could be beamed the program from outside
22:21:41 <alise> ais523: that's basically gemini, except it knows its own pattern
22:22:05 <ais523> by duplicating an existing information feed? or via some other mechanism?
22:22:46 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, Gemini design: two constructor/reflector units keeping a glider loop between them. They build the next units and copy the genome across.
22:22:53 <Phantom_Hoover> The child deletes the parent.
22:22:56 <alise> holy shit it's huge
22:23:08 <ais523> I'd like to see a glider gun puffer sometime
22:23:10 <alise> the geminis are as big as gliders
22:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, exists.
22:23:48 <ais523> yay
22:23:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It was the first quadratic-growth pattern discovered.
22:24:03 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399&sid=ee767eaaabb71ce2dcdbe63aa2c271c4&start=50#p3121 ;; "I'm a journalist, please do my Game of Life-related journalism for me"
22:24:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, seems surprising that that was discovered before space-filler-stretchers
22:24:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
22:24:39 <ais523> the second seems simpler in a way
22:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Synthing a glider gun is rather easier than finding a wavefront and stabilising it.
22:27:34 <alise> Vorpal:
22:27:35 <alise> "BlackBerry PlayBook ★
22:27:35 <alise> Announced today during RIM’s developer conference. 7-inches diagonal, runs the QNX OS that RIM bought earlier this year."
22:27:39 <alise> your dream come true
22:27:52 <alise> oh
22:27:54 <alise> "The tablet will utilize an OS created by the recently acquired QNX (just as we'd heard previous to the announcement) called the BlackBerry Tablet OS [...]"
22:28:33 <|EOF|> lol
22:28:41 <Sgeo> QNX?
22:30:05 <|EOF|> how do *you* say it?
22:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "Gaoos"
22:30:14 <|EOF|> gaussier?
22:30:34 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, how it's pronounced by Germans.
22:31:06 <ais523> the correct pronunciation is along the lines of "gouse"
22:31:18 <ais523> by analogy with "house"
22:31:40 <|EOF|> http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:EnUk4Vy1WCcJ:www.mathnet.or.kr/mathnet/kms_tex/980598.pdf+gaussier&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESid9-HVMOyHz15NJkuVrT_DC7Q0jaO4GtX8vyTt0NLcDAH4bVq3Xf9q2NjSTWQPm_ara3A7nZohiJXnkCEqKRe1afjd75eRrwY2gMCF8qzMpciENNEDDa80_VGpPNY27EldQaFt&sig=AHIEtbQVJUqjEavc_blLJnpE9Z11v_8rrw
22:31:49 <alise> goosian blur
22:32:27 <Sgeo> gaawwws
22:32:31 <|EOF|> :)
22:32:38 <|EOF|> DING DING DING
22:32:52 <Phantom_Hoover> /ˈɡaʊs/ is WP's IPA.
22:32:54 <|EOF|> gaawwwss
22:33:17 <|EOF|> yeah
22:33:24 <Sgeo> g-owww!-s
22:34:01 <|EOF|> heldam
22:34:52 <olsner_> bah, who cares how it's pronounced
22:35:10 <olsner_> I think each language should choose a pronounciation they can get right and stick with it
22:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner_, me!
22:35:29 <olsner_> instead of trying and failing at whatever the original language is
22:35:32 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner.
22:35:33 <alise> Star gate is a pattern based on the Fast Forward Force Field that was created on October 26, 1996 by Dietrich Leithner. It is a period 60 oscillator that allows lightweight spaceships to jump forward at the superluminous speed of 15c/14. Specifically, lightweight spaceships entering from the left jump by 30 cells along their path in 28 generations.
22:35:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "Goss" sounds stupid, for one thing.
22:35:39 <alise> someone please correct this misconception
22:35:42 <fizzie> Gaussian blur, gas'n'blow.
22:35:43 <alise> although, wait
22:35:47 <alise> does it actually make travel faster, just not information transfer?
22:35:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And you don't say "hoss", so it's not as if you don't have the phoneme.
22:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no.
22:36:00 <alise> then fix the page
22:36:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you got tthat.
22:36:01 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Star_gate
22:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> *that
22:36:07 <alise> yes, but the page disagreed
22:36:46 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fast_forward_force_field at least acknowledges that it's an illusion
22:36:54 <alise> "Leithner named the Fast Forward Force Field in honour of his favourite science fiction writer, the physicist Robert L. Forward."
22:36:55 <alise> oh come on :P
22:37:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Added "appear to".
22:37:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Weasel words FTW!
22:37:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: if you stacked a bunch of stargates almost right after each other, then fired a spaceship from the start
22:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
22:37:51 <alise> it'd reach the end faster than the spaceship but slower than c, right?
22:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> The spaceship comes out the end regardless of the input, IIRC.
22:38:25 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Teleportation states authoritatively that it's actually superluminal all over the page lawl
22:38:43 <alise> Did you know...
22:38:44 <alise> ...that replicators are known to exist in Conway's Game of Life, but none have yet been found?
22:38:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fix that too :P
22:39:06 <Phantom_Hoover> It's open-edit, you know.
22:39:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Although there is a distinctive jump in the ships position, it does not qualify as superluminal motion because it is not sustained; moreover to be effective it depends on the distance between the bow of the teleportee and the stern of the advanced image. Leithner constructed a Stargate which, by renewing and repeating the force field, can impart an impulse to a whole procession of ships, but they must arriv
22:39:43 <Phantom_Hoover> e in synchrony with the field. The refactory period of the force field, the size of the debris cloud, and the ability to create the necessary glider streams in time all affect the design. When the actual distance covered by a designated glider is divided by the number of generations elapsed, the result is no longer superluminal; only apparently so over short stretches.
22:39:53 <Phantom_Hoover> They basically get it right there.
22:40:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, their logo ANNOYS me.
22:40:26 <alise> why?
22:40:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "no longer superluminal" -- it never was
22:40:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, tell alise of your proof that the Moore neighbourhood cannot exist on a sphere.
22:41:11 <alise> oh right :P
22:41:17 <alise> http://www.skilledtests.com/wiki/Template:Game_of_Life --> http://www.skilledtests.com/wiki/Conway's_Game_of_Life
22:41:22 <alise> (yes, it's meant to show as template code)
22:41:27 <alise> because it saves as an actual invocation on page save
22:41:29 <alise> meaning it gets evaluated
22:41:30 <alise> genius
22:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> It is.
22:42:00 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
22:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> MediaWiki is m4, but less civilised.
22:42:35 <alise> how can you be less civilised than m4 :P
22:43:13 <olsner> isn't there a whole chain of less civilized tools below m4? like perl for instance
22:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> MediaWiki is... pretty low.
22:43:42 <Phantom_Hoover> At least it doesn't try to be TC.
22:45:26 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/images/0/0f/Unidimensional_infinite.png
22:45:38 <alise> olsner: have you ever used m4??
22:45:40 <alise> just ask ais523
22:45:54 <ais523> m4's a perfectly good esolang
22:46:27 <Phantom_Hoover> The idiots have cascade-protected the main page.
22:46:27 <olsner> haven't written any m4 programs, just some minor sendmail configuration and autoconfing
22:46:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't change the Did you Know.
22:48:12 <ais523> create the page Wikipedia:Main_Page/Errors (even though it'll be in the wrong namespace), then complain that they don't have the relevant page for reporting in the exact same place as Wikipedia
22:48:57 <alise> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Spaceships_with_speed_2560c/16849793
22:49:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Heh.
22:49:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't they mention the direction?
22:56:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:56:31 -!- ais523 has changed nick to Glais523.
22:59:33 -!- |EOF| has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:00:51 <Glais523> uh-oh, this meme is spreading
23:00:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Glais523, explain.
23:01:01 <Glais523> someone notes a couple of people in the same channel have nicks starting with Gla
23:01:06 <Glais523> so other people also change their nicks to start with Gla
23:01:17 <Glais523> people in /other channels/ notice a lot of changes to start with Gla, so follow suit
23:01:24 <Glais523> hopefully it'll fizzle before it becomes self-sustaining
23:02:02 * Phantom_Hoover → gleep
23:02:18 <olsner> Glais523: afaict you're the only one in the whole world applying this meme
23:02:24 <Glais523> olsner: in this channel, yes
23:03:09 -!- Glais523 has changed nick to ais523.
23:03:14 <olsner> no other channel I'm in has any gla:ers at all
23:03:32 <ais523> probably doesn't have much of an intersection with the others, it started in #nethack
23:03:55 <olsner> so #nethack is full of them?
23:04:15 <ais523> was, it fizzled there after a while
23:04:31 <ais523> but spread to other nethack-related channels in the meantime
23:04:35 <ais523> where I hope it ended, but it's hard to tell
23:06:03 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:06:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:09:05 <oerjan> obviously it's not ending, just glacial
23:10:06 <Sgeo> Other NetHack related channels?
23:10:31 <ais523> #nethack.de
23:10:34 <ais523> #unnethack
23:10:40 <Sgeo> ah
23:10:45 <ais523> I'm in 5 nethack-related channels at the moment, but those are two of the larger ones
23:11:07 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Glasgeo.
23:11:48 <Glasgeo> Sadly, I doubt the two other channels I am in are capable of sustaining memes like this
23:12:17 <Glasgeo> Well, one, not counting the +m that I just lef
23:12:19 <Glasgeo> t
23:18:11 <oerjan> +m means NO MEMES, silly
23:20:08 <nooga> silly
23:20:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:22:36 -!- cpressey has joined.
23:22:37 <nooga> glasgowo
23:30:06 <cpressey> glk
23:42:36 <cpressey> "This directory is still sort of wrecked from the great disk crash. Damn. Last updated May 10, 1999."
23:42:39 <cpressey> :(
23:42:48 <Glasgeo> cpressey, o.O
23:49:04 <nooga> where
23:49:17 <nooga> kodkok
23:49:57 <alise> cpressey: where?
23:51:34 <nooga> ih nel
23:52:11 <olsner> 'kodkok' sounds a bit like swedish for making a stew out of code
23:52:24 <nooga> good
23:53:34 <alise> The actual poll on time.com's front page: http://i.imgur.com/qZdqK.jpg
23:54:27 <nooga> Polish: kod -> code, kok -> chignon
23:54:53 <nooga> olsner: smak ?
23:56:41 <olsner> 'kok' is the noun form of 'koka' which means to cook or to boil, so making a foo-boil would typically mean stewing the foo or something like that
23:57:50 <cpressey> http://www.staringispolite.com/likepython/
23:57:52 <cpressey> :|
23:57:53 <nooga> śok
23:57:54 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:57:54 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
←2010-09-27 2010-09-28 2010-09-29→ ↑2010 ↑all