←2010-10-09 2010-10-10 2010-10-11→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:02 <cpressey> alise: what is it that wants to be in packet mode, again?
00:00:05 <oklopol> Traceback (most recent call last):
00:00:05 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff\vagrant.py", line 2, in <module>
00:00:05 <oklopol> from curses import*
00:00:05 <oklopol> File "C:\stuff\curses\__init__.py", line 7, in <module>
00:00:05 <oklopol> from _WCurses import *
00:00:06 <oklopol> ImportError: DLL load failed: The specified module could not be found.
00:00:09 <oklopol> kind of a no-brained
00:00:10 <oklopol> r
00:00:23 <alise> oklopol: oh right that. yeah. that doesn't seem to work. sometimes. wait a sec.
00:00:54 <oklopol> it would be weird if it worked, i just downloaded something called curses into a random directory...
00:01:14 <alise> oklopol: no, you installed it properly
00:01:17 <alise> it's a problem with the package
00:01:20 <alise> okay the pyd is there, so
00:01:20 <oklopol> oka
00:01:21 <oklopol> y
00:01:53 <cpressey> "Packet mode is on Facebook" "Sign up for Facebook to connect with Packet mode."
00:02:08 <alise> oklopol: wait do you have cygwin?
00:02:10 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:02:13 <oklopol> does alise have a facebook page?
00:02:24 <oklopol> alise: i... don't remember :D
00:02:28 <alise> no. well technically yes but the last time i used it i just played go terribly
00:02:29 <alise> oklopol: GO CHECK
00:02:31 <oklopol> let's see...
00:02:42 <oklopol> heh, no
00:02:45 <oklopol> do i need it? :D
00:02:45 <alise> oklopol: if you do, start the setup program and just tick python, and ncurses
00:02:47 <alise> okayy
00:02:51 <alise> oklopol: well it would be a lot easier
00:02:51 <Vorpal> okay clang-analyzer is silly, it is first assuming a parameter to the function is false in an if test, then in another if test on the same parameter a bit later assuming it is true
00:02:51 <alise> :)
00:02:58 <alise> http://cygwin.com/setup.exe
00:02:59 <Vorpal> and it has obviously not been changed in between
00:03:03 <Vorpal> or could have been changed even
00:03:11 <alise> you just need to tick python and ncurses; and obviously you love my program enough to do this
00:03:27 <alise> oklopol: btw if you're wondering why Vorpal is so boring, it's because he's AnMaster
00:03:29 <oklopol> yes
00:03:40 <alise> yesumlaut
00:03:40 <Vorpal> alise, he knows that
00:03:45 <oklopol> i know that
00:03:50 <Vorpal> alise, and stop trolling
00:03:55 <alise> i'm trolling?
00:04:06 <alise> i don't think you know what trolling means
00:04:14 <Vorpal> alise, I do know, and you are doing that atm
00:04:24 <oklopol> sure you are, i mean you can't seriously think AnMaster is boring
00:04:47 <alise> yeah i must just be trying to rile him up because i'm so jealous of how interesting he is
00:04:49 <oklopol> anyway the first thing you said last time i entered was "...and AnMaster is Vorpal now, things have changed surely much yes"
00:04:53 <cpressey> yes. what an absurd position to take. you must be trolling.
00:04:54 <Vorpal> alise, :P
00:04:57 <alise> can you imagine meeting him in person? all the sparkly ideas
00:05:00 <alise> bouncing out of him
00:05:09 <alise> the spontaneity
00:05:10 <alise> the FUN
00:05:11 <Vorpal> cpressey, mentioning it all the time is trolling however
00:05:14 <Vorpal> and that is what alise is doing
00:05:25 <alise> i mentioned it once before you misused "trolling"
00:05:32 <alise> oklopol: "changed surely much yes" wat
00:05:33 <Vorpal> alise, once today yes
00:05:35 <alise> what was i thinking
00:05:40 <oklopol> alise: what?
00:05:44 <alise> oklopol: from what i said
00:05:53 <oklopol> alise: i dont' se it
00:05:56 <alise> <oklopol> anyway the first thing you said last time i entered was "...and AnMaster is Vorpal now, things have changed surely much yes"
00:06:03 <oklopol> what?
00:06:07 <oklopol> what's gonig on
00:06:09 <oklopol> i don't sehet it
00:06:28 <alise> oklopol: are you installing cygwin, drunkard
00:06:29 <Vorpal> oklopol, nor do I
00:06:35 <oklopol> i SM
00:06:37 <oklopol> kind ofa
00:06:43 <alise> <oklopol> anyway the first thing you said last time i entered was "...and AnMaster is Vorpal now, things have changed surely much yes"
00:06:44 <alise> you just said that
00:06:53 <alise> then i replied "changed surely much yes"
00:06:54 <oklopol> well
00:06:57 <alise> quoting the extract
00:06:58 <oklopol> surel6y that'sd yrue
00:07:01 <alise> to highlight its incomprehensibility
00:07:07 <alise> oklopol: stop faking drunkenness
00:07:11 <oklopol> :D
00:07:11 <Vorpal> oh that, now I get it
00:07:13 <Vorpal> obvious
00:07:30 <oklopol> actually what i was doing was not correcting my spelling
00:07:33 <alise> oklopol: no seriously though, cygwin. tick python and ncurses. for peace and family!
00:07:45 <oklopol> but i'll correct it from now in
00:07:47 <oklopol> *on
00:07:59 <oklopol> anyway
00:08:03 <oklopol> i'm installing
00:08:23 <cpressey> alise: oh jesus PACKET MODE
00:08:27 <alise> oklopol: man you are going to find this *so* disappointing. unless you love games without challenge
00:08:27 <oklopol> haven't ticked anything, it didn't ask yet, and it's already installing all kinds of crap
00:08:31 <alise> cpressey: RIGHT what is it, i enabled it
00:08:35 <alise> it was enabled by default
00:08:39 <alise> oklopol: um it should have provided a list
00:08:42 <alise> like a bunch
00:08:43 <alise> of categories
00:08:45 <alise> at a previous step
00:08:45 <oklopol> games without challenge are so coolsome
00:08:46 <alise> oh wait
00:08:52 <alise> oklopol: it's probably just downloading the list
00:08:56 <cpressey> alise: um. everything in BSD-land is ancient. Good luck finding hardware where it makes a stitch of difference
00:08:56 <alise> if not, cancel and trya gain
00:08:59 <oklopol> erm
00:09:01 <alise> cpressey: what is it.
00:09:02 <oklopol> actually
00:09:09 <alise> also, VM :P
00:09:14 <oklopol> it's currently asking where i want to download from
00:09:22 <alise> oklopol: yeah just pick any. probably one in finland
00:09:23 <oklopol> i thought it was listing what it's currently downloading
00:09:24 <oklopol> :D
00:09:39 <alise> cpressey: do i want cp850 or iso keyboard map :|
00:09:41 <alise> YOU CLEARLY KNOW THIS
00:09:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:10:03 <cpressey> alise: http://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man?command=boot0cfg&section=8
00:10:06 <cpressey> srch for packet
00:10:11 <oklopol> chose a random one, didn't see a .fi
00:10:14 <alise> cpressey: hah
00:10:19 <alise> oklopol: it's quite a lot to download
00:10:21 <alise> i would have chosen a .se
00:10:26 <alise> swedish servers are fast for some reason
00:12:30 <oklopol> okay i'm downloading something now
00:12:41 <oklopol> i don't know what it is, but something definitely
00:12:54 <alise> oklopol: it's like 100 megs to download
00:12:56 <alise> if you picked a slow server
00:12:58 <alise> this will never finish
00:13:13 <oklopol> :D
00:13:22 <oklopol> i picked a random one as i said
00:13:28 <oklopol> anyway
00:13:30 <alise> oklopol: go back and pick an .se
00:13:32 <alise> or something
00:13:32 <oklopol> over half done
00:13:37 <alise> oklopol: that's just the package list!
00:13:41 <alise> that finishes in about 5s for me
00:13:46 <alise> five seconds
00:13:49 <alise> you need a good mirror :P
00:14:26 <oklopol> speed is like 200 kB/s afaik
00:14:29 <oklopol> *afaiu
00:14:59 <alise> that should be fine then
00:15:19 <alise> oklopol: anyway once it goes to the list just use the searchy thing to search for python, tick that, then ncurses, tick that too
00:15:27 <alise> you wanna pick like the latest one if it lists a few
00:15:53 <oklopol> i'm going to sleep soon
00:15:55 <oklopol> :-)
00:16:01 <alise> oklopol: but my gaem
00:16:04 <oklopol> well
00:16:10 <oklopol> that's very important, yes
00:16:18 <alise> oklopol: will you return :|
00:16:25 <oklopol> i might!
00:16:31 <alise> oklopol: NO YOU MUST
00:17:07 <oklopol> university takes pretty much all my time
00:17:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
00:17:21 <alise> oklopol: just combine drinking and #esoteric
00:17:21 <oklopol> and i hate computers
00:17:25 <oklopol> well
00:17:27 <alise> WRITE OKLOS
00:17:28 <oklopol> the problem is
00:17:37 <oklopol> i don't drink very often
00:18:04 <oklopol> when i'm drunk people are very interesting
00:18:07 <alise> oklopol: forfeit all social interaction
00:18:10 <alise> join #esoteric
00:18:16 <oklopol> byt when i'm not, i just try to solve things
00:18:40 <oklopol> for me, #esoteric is the social interaction
00:18:44 <alise> solve enjoying #esoteric
00:19:06 <alise> oklopol: i will totally come to turku sometime
00:19:18 <alise> well helsinki looks like more fun, but i guess i could go to turku too
00:19:39 <oklopol> except being a researcher is mostly talking to the other researchers, although mostly it's them talking and me thinking about math
00:20:03 <oklopol> well i would definitely LOVE seeing you
00:20:11 <alise> never have you sounded more sarcastic
00:20:18 <oklopol> ;-)
00:20:26 <alise> maybe i'll just blow turku up
00:20:31 <oklopol> well in any case that's true
00:20:39 <oklopol> it would be cool to meet your
00:20:43 <alise> my what
00:20:49 <oklopol> oh
00:20:53 <oklopol> i didn't notice that
00:20:55 <oklopol> *-r
00:20:59 <oklopol> your penis
00:21:01 <alise> oklopol: HOWS CYGWYN
00:21:07 <oklopol> let's se.
00:21:14 <oklopol> installed!
00:21:23 <alise> oklopol: wait did you select python and ncurses
00:21:36 <oklopol> well
00:21:37 <oklopol> kind of
00:21:43 <oklopol> there was some sort of selecting thing
00:21:45 <oklopol> but
00:21:48 <alise> you skipped it
00:21:49 <oklopol> there was not ncurses
00:21:53 <alise> oklopol: was there curses
00:21:58 <oklopol> well maybe
00:22:00 <oklopol> i didn't look
00:22:01 <oklopol> :D
00:22:03 <alise> oklopol: well whatever it might work
00:22:05 <alise> start a cygwin shell
00:22:09 <oklopol> k
00:22:10 <alise> it's in your start menu somewhere
00:22:12 <alise> cygwin bash or whatever
00:22:24 <alise> oklopol: then cd /cygdrive/c/path/to/vagrant
00:22:30 <alise> then python vagrant.py
00:22:32 <alise> that should work
00:23:36 <oklopol> no module named _WCurses
00:23:37 <oklopol> :D
00:23:42 <alise> oklopol: ugh wait
00:23:47 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:23:49 <alise> omg quaffing has a bug
00:24:39 <oklopol> i'm going to go sleep soon btw
00:24:43 <alise> oklopol: okay in vagrant.py
00:24:45 <alise> after the line
00:24:48 <alise> if k=='q':
00:24:50 <alise> put
00:24:51 <alise> q=min(P,20)
00:24:53 <alise> then the bug will be gone
00:24:55 <oklopol> k
00:25:07 <alise> oklopol: does the /usr/bin/python one work?
00:25:16 <oklopol> certainly not
00:25:38 <alise> oklopol: ff what happens
00:26:28 <alise> oklopol: WE ARE SO CLOSE TO SOLVING THE WORLD
00:26:44 <oklopol> :D
00:26:52 <alise> oklopol: WHAT HAPPENZ
00:26:53 <oklopol> _WCurses doesn't be found
00:27:00 <alise> oklopol: even with /usr/bin?
00:27:09 <oklopol> erm
00:27:15 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:27:16 <alise> run that
00:27:18 <alise> in cygwin
00:27:20 <oklopol> still not
00:27:23 <alise> what
00:27:24 <alise> same error/
00:27:27 <alise> *error?
00:27:29 <oklopol> yes
00:27:32 <alise> no, that's simply not possible
00:27:35 <oklopol> :D
00:27:38 <alise> are you sure you entered that exactly :|
00:27:42 <alise> oklopol: okay where did you put wcurses
00:27:44 <oklopol> pretty sure!
00:27:52 <oklopol> what's wcurses?= :D
00:28:08 <alise> oklopol: THAT CURSES FOR WINDOWS YOU COPIED SOMEWHERE
00:28:12 <oklopol> :D
00:28:13 <alise> to site-packages
00:28:15 <alise> where did you put it
00:29:14 <oklopol> well umm
00:29:28 <oklopol> let's see
00:29:58 <oklopol> python26/lin
00:30:01 <oklopol> *b
00:30:06 <alise> oklopol: where is ptyhon26
00:30:07 <alise> c:?
00:30:09 <alise> *python26
00:30:10 <oklopol> yesh
00:30:16 <alise> oklopol: OH
00:30:19 <alise> just delete the curses folder
00:30:24 <alise> in c:\python26\lib\site-packages
00:30:25 <alise> just baleet it
00:30:28 <alise> and then try again
00:30:34 <oklopol> done
00:30:39 <alise> work?
00:30:42 <oklopol> erm
00:31:23 <oklopol> baleeettet?
00:31:44 <alise> oklopol: what
00:31:47 <alise> oklopol: try the python line again
00:31:50 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:31:53 <oklopol> i deleted *a* curses folder
00:32:01 <oklopol> but not the one in site-packages
00:32:06 <oklopol> ;-)
00:32:17 <alise> oklopol: undo that.
00:32:20 <oklopol> i can't
00:32:24 <oklopol> :D
00:32:26 <alise> oklopol: actually it doesn't matter
00:32:29 <alise> you know c:\python26?
00:32:33 <alise> nuke that whole directory.
00:32:39 <oklopol> i know that address yes
00:32:45 <alise> just delete it.
00:32:53 <oklopol> i won't, there's a couple progs of mine thar
00:32:54 <oklopol> sry
00:32:59 <alise> oklopol: okay just delete
00:33:01 <alise> c:\python26\lib
00:33:06 <alise> that should work fine
00:33:38 <oklopol> erm
00:33:40 <oklopol> why?
00:33:48 <oklopol> that's full of files!
00:33:51 <alise> oklopol: trust me, i'm a scientist.
00:33:55 <alise> no, it's full of files from evil python
00:33:57 <alise> we want lovely cygwin python
00:33:59 <alise> which has bunnies
00:34:05 <alise> evil python files are infecting cygwin python's brains
00:34:06 <alise> and making it dumb
00:34:13 <oklopol> oh
00:34:13 <coppro> lol
00:34:17 <oklopol> okay i'll remove all
00:34:23 <oklopol> i'll do what you say
00:34:33 <alise> coppro: HOW IS THE PUBLICATION OF MY MATHNEWS ARTICLE GOING EH
00:34:33 <coppro> fall prey to the mind control
00:34:42 <coppro> alise: guess it didn't make this issue?
00:34:45 <coppro> i dunno
00:34:50 <alise> coppro: BAH
00:34:58 <alise> is it out then?
00:35:00 <oklopol> all gone now
00:35:06 <coppro> alise: it might come back for a later issue
00:35:07 <alise> oklopol: now try the command
00:35:09 <coppro> you never know
00:35:17 <alise> coppro: the website hasn't been updated, sheesh!
00:35:20 <alise> such unprofessionalism
00:35:22 <oklopol> wait actually it takes a while to remove 2000 files
00:35:24 <alise> this is exactly what i was complaining about
00:35:32 <coppro> alise: also sort of the point
00:35:37 <oklopol> okay still no module WCurses
00:35:41 <alise> oklopol: ...what
00:35:45 <alise> oklopol: that's, literally physically impossible
00:35:46 <oklopol> i'm going to sleep now :D
00:35:47 <oklopol> :D
00:35:48 <alise> oklopol: NO WAIT
00:35:50 <oklopol> i believe you
00:35:53 <alise> oklopol: the traceback it gives
00:35:54 <alise> what files does it list
00:35:56 <oklopol> omaay
00:35:56 <alise> apart from vagrant.py
00:36:09 <coppro> I BELIEVE IN THE POWER FUNCTION!
00:36:32 <alise> coppro: i suggest you boycott that evil paper
00:36:39 <oklopol> vagrant.py, from curses import blah
00:36:46 <alise> oklopol: the FILES
00:36:46 <oklopol> then
00:36:48 <alise> that aren't vagrant.py
00:36:49 <alise> yes
00:37:00 <oklopol> __init__.py
00:37:06 <alise> yes
00:37:08 <alise> but __init__.py WHERE
00:37:15 <oklopol> c/stuff/
00:37:24 <oklopol> ...rses
00:37:25 <alise> oklopol: I NEED TO KNOW THE PATH
00:37:26 <alise> :|
00:37:29 <oklopol> *.../curses
00:37:36 <alise> it's not stuff/
00:37:37 <oklopol> erm okay
00:37:38 <alise> the stuff is important :p
00:38:33 <oklopol> /cygdrive/c/stuff/curses/__init__.py
00:38:41 <alise> oklopol: WHAT IS STUFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
00:38:47 <oklopol> sic.
00:38:50 <alise> what
00:38:56 <oklopol> sic
00:39:04 <alise> /c/sic/curses?
00:39:06 <alise> no it is not
00:39:33 <oklopol> i mean literally stuff.
00:39:45 <alise> oklopol: really?
00:39:53 <oklopol> yes really
00:40:02 <oklopol> i call my main folder suff.
00:40:04 <oklopol> *stuff
00:40:12 <alise> oklopol: yes, but
00:40:15 <alise> curses shouldn't be right in there
00:40:17 <alise> oklopol: OH
00:40:19 <alise> oklopol: remove stuff/curses
00:40:23 <alise> remove that whole directory
00:40:24 <oklopol> ;D
00:40:25 <oklopol> :D
00:40:27 <oklopol> ok!
00:40:38 <oklopol> done
00:40:42 <alise> oklopol: now try
00:40:52 <oklopol> lol
00:40:53 <oklopol> woks
00:40:55 <oklopol> *works
00:40:57 <alise> oklopol: now play
00:41:00 <alise> do you remember what i said
00:41:02 <alise> my tutorial
00:41:13 <alise> wait
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> after the line
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> if k=='q':
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> put
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> q=min(P,20)
00:41:13 <alise> <alise> then the bug will be gone
00:41:14 <oklopol> although it still says there's no WCurses
00:41:16 <alise> oklopol: did you do this?
00:41:22 <oklopol> it prints the map
00:41:27 <oklopol> yes
00:41:31 <alise> oklopol: wait, what?
00:41:35 <alise> okay Ctrl+C
00:41:37 <alise> clear
00:41:42 <alise> /usr/bin/python vagrant.py
00:41:45 <alise> that should definitely work
00:41:48 <alise> with no errors
00:41:59 <alise> oklopol: do you remember the controls and what things are and shit
00:42:03 <alise> if not i can copy-paste :LP
00:42:33 <alise> *:P
00:43:31 <oklopol> erm okay now it works
00:43:32 <oklopol> so
00:43:39 <oklopol> i'm going to sleep
00:44:02 <oklopol> i'll complete the game tomorrow
00:44:05 <oklopol> mAYBE
00:44:08 <oklopol> .>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
00:45:40 <alise> oklopol: IT IS SUCH FUNS
00:45:43 <alise> oklopol: wait
00:45:44 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:45:45 <alise> oklopol: come in here tomorrow :|
00:48:30 -!- augur has joined.
00:49:24 <alise> cpressey: it doesn't boot!
00:49:25 <alise> cpressey: fix yer installer
00:50:12 <cpressey> alise: i resigned
00:50:20 <alise> cpressey: DRAT, FOILED AGAIN
00:50:25 <cpressey> also, that's the boot block's problem
00:50:31 <alise> nope
00:50:35 <alise> it won't start smtpd or something
00:50:38 <alise> apparently this is a boot-blocking error
00:50:41 <alise> (what is it about BSDs that attracts drama, btw?)
00:50:53 <cpressey> oh well then it boots, it just doesn't... start up
00:51:05 <alise> most useless distinction evar
00:51:10 <cpressey> pah. who needs smtpd
00:51:12 <alise> hey safe mode seems to work
00:51:23 <alise> cpressey: WILL YOU USE MY BSD/LINUX (I HAVE NO IDEA WHICH YET) DISTRIBUTION
00:51:27 <alise> it will be all the puppies
00:51:30 <alise> all the flowers and kittens
00:51:32 <cpressey> IF YOU CAN GET TO MINED, IT BOOTS
00:51:43 <cpressey> alise: perhaps.
00:51:44 <alise> in fact it may just be distributed as kitten-version.iso
00:52:07 <alise> kitten, nice name for an os
00:52:11 <alise> much better than Quadrant (my first thought)
00:52:37 <alise> oh it boots just with yelly error messages that hide the login prompt
00:52:39 <alise> until you press enter
00:53:09 <cpressey> at one point i wanted to strip the Dragonfly userland to the bare minimum and distribute a (then-)flash-drive sized distro of it
00:53:13 <cpressey> called "Damselfly"
00:53:14 <alise> cpressey: features: everything is a service! stupid init system all gone, instead process 1 is just a nice service management system (think "# ctl start x11")
00:53:19 <cpressey> get it? and there actually is such an insect
00:53:26 <alise> probably non-glibc for at least most stuff
00:53:29 <alise> maybe statically linked (probably not)
00:53:34 <alise> bsd userland, or at least a minimal one
00:53:44 <alise> cpressey: hur hur :P
00:54:14 <alise> cpressey: did it ever get anywhere?
00:54:15 <alise> i guess not
00:54:21 <cpressey> alise: no
00:54:40 <cpressey> alise: have they packageized the base system yet?
00:54:44 <alise> oh, extra feature: probably some sort of pre-assembled configuration of a panel program and i guess a file manager, constituting the "desktop environment"
00:54:44 <cpressey> if not, fft
00:54:50 <alise> cpressey: very much doubt it
00:55:01 <cpressey> there are so many old programs in there no one the fuck uses
00:55:09 <alise> <alise> oh, extra feature: probably some sort of pre-assembled configuration of a panel program and i guess a file manager, constituting the "desktop environment"
00:55:10 <alise> as a package that is
00:55:12 <cpressey> supporting ancient and obscure hardware
00:55:17 <alise> s/^ +//
00:55:44 <cpressey> so, for that reason alone, i would lean towards, if you have a bsd userland, make it a package
00:55:45 <alise> oh and there may be some merging of the concepts of a package manager and a system configuration manager, and maybe even services manager
00:55:49 <alise> but that's much more up in the air
00:55:55 <alise> cpressey: everything will be a package, more or less.
00:55:56 <cpressey> eeowza
00:55:58 <alise> the kernel won't be
00:56:00 <zzo38> Will use *my* LINUX DISTIBUTION (if/when I write it)?
00:56:08 <cpressey> zzo38: perhaps.
00:56:12 <alise> maybe one or two things in /bin that the system needs to even start will be in one package like ultra-base
00:56:16 <alise> and /lib
00:56:21 <alise> zzo38: probably not.
00:56:26 <zzo38> It won't have all the puppies and flowers and kittens. (If you want those, you have to get them separately)
00:56:38 <alise> see, this is why i wouldn't use it!
00:56:43 <cpressey> apt-get install butterflies
00:56:45 <alise> i like puppies and flowers and kittens!
00:56:57 <alise> cpressey: oh yeah, and general system ethos of... not breaking, ever
00:57:01 <alise> if i can help it
00:57:11 <zzo38> alise: That's why? You can still get them separately, you should be able to use them compatible, with background picture or whatever....
00:57:25 <alise> oh and packages that really suck like x11 and the like will probably come with some sort of helping aids to make them less terrible to administer
00:57:37 <alise> zzo38: But I need puppies and flowers and kittens.
00:57:44 <alise> How could I even install them if I didn't have them? I need them to use any system!
00:58:12 <zzo38> alise: You can use your distribution. For my distribution, if you want puppies and flowers and kittens, you have to get it separately. It is not part of the distribution, but that doesn't mean it is incompatible.
00:58:32 <alise> cpressey: it's also possible that the system will be run entirely from ram.
00:58:33 <alise> maybe.
00:58:37 <pikhq> Mmkay. So far, I have discovered that everything ever hates me.
00:58:56 <zzo38> I might write most of the new programs using Enhanced CWEB. Now, this Linux distribution is not only a operating system, it is also a book.
00:58:57 <alise> zzo38: But how could I get it? I'd have to use a distribution to do that. And if I use yours, it won't have puppies and flowers and kittens, so I won't be able to use it even for the second it takes me to get them.
00:59:33 <zzo38> alise: Ah, then don't use it, if you don't want to..... or, just make a modified distribution using some other system to make the modifications with..... whichever way you prefer
01:00:00 <cpressey> you will need to use the autopuppifier download tool
01:00:03 <zzo38> If you want pictures, put the pictures on USB memory or so on.
01:00:04 <alise> I think I'll stick to kitten OS
01:00:08 <alise> zzo38: no pictures
01:00:08 <zzo38> alise: OK.
01:00:09 <alise> actual kittens!
01:00:13 <alise> and flowers, and puppies
01:00:24 <zzo38> alise: OK, do that if you want to.
01:00:25 <alise> in my operating system
01:03:19 <alise> cpressey: lame, it doesn't do qemu's network
01:03:20 <alise> properly
01:03:23 <alise> or i configured it wrong >_>
01:05:10 <alise> cpressey: "As of 1.4, DragonFly uses the NetBSD Packages Collection pkgsrc (http://www.netbsd.org/docs/software/packages.html) for third-party software."
01:05:11 <alise> cheaters
01:11:42 * alise uses aria2c to download PC-BSD from all mirrors at once
01:11:47 <zzo38> I have explained before that I planned to call my distribution "ArcaneLinux", and explained the codename scheme used. Some people figured it out, other people think the theme doesn't match itself. (alise: What codename scheme do you plan?)
01:11:57 <alise> what is the scheme
01:12:01 <alise> ?
01:13:14 <zzo38> alise: The scheme is that the second version might be called "Illimitable Illithid" and the sixth version called "Vancouver Island", and so on.
01:13:33 <alise> I see.
01:13:43 <alise> I don't plan a codename scheme, as I don't plan to have releases, just updates.
01:14:01 <alise> The installer CD will probably be rebuilt whenever it stops working or gets out of date in some noticeable way.
01:14:14 <alise> So from about one to three months, I would guess.
01:15:56 <alise> Those would just be given YYYY-MM release dates, almost certainly.
01:16:02 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:18:06 <alise> pikhq: Hey -- were you the one who knew stuff about ksplice?
01:18:23 <alise> or was that a #nixos guy
01:19:04 <alise> pikhq: Ooh, scratch that. I just had an idea.
01:19:19 <alise> pikhq: If you did a hibernate-type-thing, would it be possible to omit the kernel memory, and then have the new kernel restore it?
01:19:27 <alise> Thus having a reboot but keeping everything started up.
01:22:14 -!- HackEgo has joined.
01:23:10 <pikhq> alise: Only if you could somehow make it keep track of the kernel *state*.
01:23:50 <alise> pikhq: True. Aww.
01:24:01 <alise> pikhq: I wish ksplice was something you could port to another kernel in, like, days.
01:24:05 <alise> Stupid bad system design.
01:24:13 <alise> pikhq: I guess I'll just stick to supporting a kexec reboot method.
01:25:58 <cpressey> alise: guess what. i left when they decided to use pkgsrc
01:26:07 <cpressey> like, way to innovate, guys
01:26:07 <alise> cpressey: haha
01:26:30 <cpressey> there were like two or three people involved in the project who were trying to build a new package system, too
01:26:55 <alise> you know, the last thing i'd have expected from you is for you to have written an installer and stuff for a bsd variant
01:27:00 <alise> it just...
01:27:05 <alise> are you suer it was you?
01:27:06 <alise> *sure
01:27:27 <cpressey> alise: it's in Lua, too! ooooo!
01:27:31 <cpressey> i'm not me!
01:27:49 <alise> oh that's why it sucks then
01:27:49 <alise> ;)
01:28:33 <cpressey> have you ever used freebsd's installer?
01:28:38 <cpressey> i mean, c'mon
01:29:11 <cpressey> all bsd installers suck
01:29:46 <pikhq> alise: So, the way to get a Win2k VM in Qemu is apparently to install it in VirtualBox and convert the disk image.
01:31:25 <alise> pikhq: Oh joy.
01:31:27 <alise> Why not just use it in VirtualBox?
01:31:41 <alise> cpressey: pc-bsds is probably decent since it's all modern and graphical, even if that's irritating
01:31:49 <alise> cpressey: kitten's installer will be nice :D
01:32:20 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:32:35 <alise> cpressey: what was the old installer like:?
01:32:37 <alise> if it had one
01:32:39 <alise> *like?
01:32:45 <pikhq> alise: Because qemu is significantly more flexible.
01:33:01 <alise> pikhq: why would you want flexible win2k :p
01:33:13 <pikhq> alise: And VirtualBox doesn't really let you go and just create a hard disk image that's a copy-on-write clone of another one.
01:33:37 <alise> true.
01:33:41 <alise> pikhq: are you replacing wine or something :)
01:34:00 <pikhq> Well, not all programs run on WINE.
01:34:01 <pikhq> :)
01:34:23 <cpressey> alise: you mean dfbsd? it didn't have one. it just came with instructions for how to do an install using unix commands
01:34:31 <alise> cpressey: joy
01:34:32 <pikhq> Whereas the only limitation with qemu is that it doesn't emulate 3D hardware.
01:34:38 <cpressey> from a booted livecd, of course
01:35:20 <alise> cpressey: to be honest, the installer in kitten will probably just help you partition a little, format filesystems, tell the package manager "install the base package in this root", and then do some trivial system configuration
01:35:21 <alise> well
01:35:24 <alise> i guess that's quite a lot
01:35:27 <alise> but it won't be a hugely complex prorgam
01:35:29 <alise> *program
01:35:30 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:36:03 <zzo38> If you make it with kitten and flower, does it have flowers that even talk?
01:36:37 <alise> flowers don't talk
01:36:48 * pikhq shall force Windows into doing his bidding! Muahahaha
01:37:04 <zzo38> alise: I know. That is why it is funny
01:37:13 <alise> well it isn't a flower then!
01:37:17 <alise> pikhq: what are you planning to do?
01:38:31 <pikhq> alise: ... Create a set of application-specific VMs.
01:38:38 <alise> pikhq: right.
01:38:46 <alise> pikhq: replace explorer.exe with the application >:)
01:38:54 <alise> then make the application fullscreen if possible
01:38:57 <alise> and make qemu set the window title
01:38:59 <alise> then make a launcher for it
01:39:02 <alise> voila, slowest program ever
01:39:08 <alise> pikhq: can qemu do automatic mouse capture?
01:39:10 <alise> if not, that'd be annoying
01:39:14 <pikhq> It can't.
01:39:32 <alise> http://www.metasploit.com/redmine/attachments/433/get_bionic_working.diff ;; this purports to make android's libc, bionic, compile on a regular system
01:39:47 <pikhq> I'm primarily intending this for games for Windows.
01:39:50 <alise> dunno if linux or bsd
01:39:55 <alise> pikhq: right. qemu is a bit slow for that
01:39:58 <alise> no?
01:40:00 <pikhq> Either 2D or sufficiently-simple-3D-that-software-rendering-doesn't-suck
01:40:03 <pikhq> alise: KVM
01:40:05 <alise> meh
01:41:16 <pikhq> "INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE"
01:41:21 <pikhq> Now *there's* an error I dislike.
01:41:53 -!- jcp has joined.
01:42:01 <alise> pikhq: :-D
01:42:12 <alise> Exception: [FtpNegotiationCommand.cc:346] File /home/ehird/PCBSD8.1-x86-DVD.iso is being downloaded by other command.
01:42:16 <alise> i wonder why i get 394857573894579345 of those.
01:42:21 <alise> when feeding it a hueg list of http and ftp servers
01:42:25 <alise> (aria2)
01:42:49 * pikhq tries installing on qemu without KVM
01:42:57 <pikhq> (... and toggle KVM on afterwards)
01:43:02 <coppro> Oo
01:43:18 * coppro starts singing Gilbert & Sullivan
01:43:22 <coppro> "Poor fellow..."
01:43:38 <pikhq> This'll be slower than hell. Hooray.
01:44:50 <pikhq> Ah. Windows installation breaks with kqemu & kvm.
01:47:38 <wareya> Where can I find an introduction to functional programming that doesn't talk as if the reader is brand new to the idea of what functional programming is?
01:47:59 <alise> wareya: Umm...
01:48:04 <alise> That's sort of half-contradictory.
01:48:13 <alise> I sort of get what you mean, but...
01:48:57 <pikhq> Hrm. "Setup is starting Windows 2000" for the past... 5 minutes.
01:49:06 <pikhq> I think it's lying to me.
01:49:19 <wareya> like how most imperative programming 'tutorials' start off with what variables and statements are, and don't get past them for five pages.
01:50:09 <pikhq> Motherfucking hell.
01:50:43 <pikhq> Everything hates me.
01:50:50 <coppro> wareya: HTDP? SCIP?
01:50:55 <coppro> *SICP
01:51:15 <alise> boo htdp, yay sicp
01:51:21 <alise> htdp is too practical and plt and BULLSHIT :|
01:51:30 <alise> Have you read your SICP today?
01:51:31 <coppro> lol
01:51:34 <wareya> Coppro: ?
01:51:56 <coppro> htdp.org / google it
01:52:04 <wareya> k
01:52:05 <alise> wareya: sicp.
01:52:08 <wareya> sicp
01:52:32 * coppro wonders if we can start a htdp/sicp flamewar
01:52:32 * alise tries to find the ascii /prog/snake
01:52:49 <coppro> it'll be the new emacs/vim
01:53:22 <cpressey> MLftWP
01:53:32 <coppro> ?
01:53:32 <alise> "I work on power management, so I'm always interested in what kind of power management functionality and interfaces people want. Plumbers included a nice discussion with someone from an embedded company I can't remember, culminating in us deciding that the existing cpufreq interface did what they wanted and so no new interfaces needed to be defined. Google was going to be an interesting case of a large company hiring people both from the embedded world and a
01:53:32 <alise> lso the existing Linux development community and then producing an embedded device that was intended to compete with the very best existing platforms. I had high hopes that this combination of factors would result in the Linux community as a whole having a better idea what the constraints and requirements for high-quality power management in the embedded world were, rather than us ending up with another pile of vendor code sitting on an FTP site somewhere in
01:53:33 <alise> Taiwan that implements its power management by passing tokenised dead mice through a wormhole.
01:53:34 <alise> To a certain extent, my hopes were fulfilled. We got a git server in California."
01:54:01 <cpressey> coppro: ML for the Working Programmer
01:54:08 <cpressey> it's not bad. but it is ML
01:54:16 <alise> Anything ending "for the Working Programmer" sounds like something to avoid.
01:54:37 <cpressey> alise: I believe it's a pun on "Category Theory for the Working Mathematician"
01:54:46 <cpressey> well, not pun. play
01:54:50 <alise> ah.
01:54:52 <alise> bad marketing then :)
01:54:58 <alise> cpressey: *Categories, I think
01:55:02 <alise> if google serves me right
01:55:09 <cpressey> could be
01:55:13 <alise> yes, it is
01:55:15 <alise> just checked
01:55:16 <coppro> never heard of categories theory
01:55:22 <alise> Categories for the ...
01:55:24 <alise> silly
01:55:36 <alise> category theory is cool, even if i will never understand it
01:56:12 <coppro> just go to grad school in pure math
01:56:34 <coppro> (in other news, <3 going to a real math school)
01:56:36 <alise> coppro: like, right now?
01:56:46 <coppro> alise: obviously!
01:56:50 <alise> i'll be there in twelve hours.
01:57:01 <alise> coppro: your job is to secure my admission
01:57:09 <coppro> alise: I'm sick
01:57:16 <coppro> I demand a three-hour extension
01:57:30 <alise> coppro: granted. but you also have to give me money, too.
01:57:33 <pikhq> So. VirtualBox it is. *mutter*
01:57:40 <pikhq> Damned snapshots.
01:57:44 <pikhq> And sucking.
01:57:48 <pikhq> Especially sucking.
01:58:25 <coppro> Interesting thing I learned last week: if k divides n, the kth Mersenne number divides the nth Mersenne number.
01:58:53 <alise> BUT WHAT IF K DOESN'T DIVIDE N, COPPRO?!?!?!?!
01:58:58 <alise> WHAT THEN?!
01:59:02 <alise> WHAT THE *FUCK* THEN?!!?!:@?!?!?!
01:59:07 <cpressey> somebody think of the children
01:59:09 <alise> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
01:59:13 * alise sobs
01:59:20 <coppro> alise: It's okay, I haven't proven it yet
01:59:29 <alise> coppro: YOU DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT PEOPLE
01:59:39 <alise> ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS YOUR MATHEMATICS, PROVING THINGS AND RUINING PEOPLE'S LIVES!
01:59:46 <alise> WAKE UP, COPPRO! WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!
01:59:58 <Gregor> Mathematics and pooppyness.
02:00:16 <alise> Gregor: that's going to be the title of coppro's phd thesis
02:00:42 <alise> Mathematics and pooppyness: a method to remove undesired comments from a networked computer conversational system.
02:00:55 <alise> yes, his phd thesis is on /ignore
02:01:29 <alise> Google are testing self-driving cars on the actual road, without the driver actually driving.
02:01:31 <alise> How is that legal?
02:01:39 <alise> And why?
02:01:40 <pikhq> VirtualBox has the *concept* of copy-on-write images. It just doesn't let you create them outside of its retarded conception of "snapshots".
02:02:00 <alise> "With someone behind the wheel to take control if something goes awry and a technician in the passenger seat to monitor the navigation system"
02:02:02 <alise> YES, BUT.
02:02:08 <coppro> alise: ohgodihopenot
02:02:15 <alise> coppro: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/science/10google.html
02:02:20 <alise> coppro: or was that the phd thesis thing
02:02:25 <alise> you were going ohgodihopenot to
02:02:37 <coppro> one or the other
02:02:43 <alise> anyway only in sil. val. and if you live there you deserve what you get
02:02:54 <alise> (how does one appreciate silicon(e) valley?)
02:02:59 <coppro> also, it would be really awesome if the police were to go and bust them for it
02:03:02 <alise> siliconE-Valley
02:03:10 <alise> coppro: it's probably legal, if they're doing it
02:03:11 <alise> somehow
02:03:20 <alise> but imagine if it drove slightly over the speed limit due to a rounding error
02:03:24 <coppro> probably has to do with freedom of speech or something
02:03:24 <alise> and they got pulled over
02:03:29 <alise> driver with his hands down by his side
02:03:32 <coppro> hah
02:03:42 <alise> oh man, how great would it be if it pulled over automatically?
02:03:46 <alise> or -- even better --
02:03:51 <alise> ran away automatically
02:03:53 <alise> whenever it sensed police
02:03:58 <coppro> even better
02:04:01 <coppro> driver falls asleep
02:04:02 <alise> VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
02:04:06 <alise> coppro: :D
02:04:10 <alise> automatic car chase up a mountain
02:04:12 <alise> with the driver asleep
02:04:59 <coppro> or, if it was driving off of google maps, did something dumb like crash into a closed road
02:05:08 <coppro> or a nonexistent one
02:08:19 <cpressey> < alise> coppro: it's probably legal, if they're doing it
02:08:32 <cpressey> corporation is doing x. therefore x is probably legal.
02:08:40 <cpressey> man, i wish.
02:09:17 <alise> cpressey: well.
02:09:21 <alise> if the NYT knows about it.
02:09:25 <alise> google certainly aren't ultra-silent
02:09:35 <alise> otherwise they would have detailed their OMG INVESTIGATION
02:09:38 <alise> to find out who's behind it
02:09:55 <cpressey> maybe.
02:10:50 <alise> "The car can be programmed for different driving personalities — from cautious, in which it is more likely to yield to another car, to aggressive, where it is more likely to go first."
02:11:00 <alise> Building a car-driving AI with an "aggressive" option: worst idea ever, or worst idea ever?
02:11:23 <Gregor> BEST
02:11:24 <Gregor> IDEA
02:11:24 <Gregor> EVER
02:11:42 <Gregor> Then just deploy it in your favorite belligerent country.
02:11:44 <Gregor> Suddenly people are getting run down.
02:11:49 <Gregor> Nobody can identify who's running them down.
02:11:55 <Gregor> Kim Jong Il gets hit by a car ...
02:12:09 <alise> xD
02:12:16 <cpressey> wait, this presupposes north korea has roads
02:12:27 <alise> it does.
02:12:31 <alise> the tour buses drive on them
02:12:36 <alise> or is that trains? no. bus.
02:13:03 <pikhq> cpressey: They have extremely overbuilt road infrastructure.
02:13:16 <pikhq> You see, being able to show off highways is a source of national pride.
02:13:36 <pikhq> Having enough cars to make your 8-lane highway necessary is un-Juche.
02:13:37 <cpressey> then, thanks to the google murder car, it shall be their undoing!
02:14:43 <coppro> s/enough/
02:15:41 <cpressey> what's something large and obscure and complex that I can build from source
02:15:55 <alise> pikhq: 8-lane? srsly?
02:16:08 <pikhq> alise: Pyongyang only, but seriously.
02:16:13 <alise> :D
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02:18:31 <pikhq> Well, because I'm actually using VirtualBox for this... Might as well see how well its 3D support works.
02:18:39 <Gregor> It has 3D support?
02:18:57 <pikhq> Gregor: It has fully-functional OpenGL support and experimental Direct3D support.
02:19:13 <alise> WineDirect3D, it's called
02:19:16 <alise> The name scares me greatly.
02:19:23 <pikhq> The Direct3D support, you need to go into safe mode to install.
02:19:28 <alise> doubly scary
02:19:36 <alise> [#4 SIZE:3,041.1MiB/3,396.4MiB(89%) CN:5 SPD:795.6KiBs ETA:07m37s]
02:19:36 <Gregor> ... hm.
02:19:37 <alise> hum de dum
02:19:39 <pikhq> It has to replace the d3d library.
02:19:40 <alise> this better be good
02:21:31 <pikhq> To be *perfectly* fair to all this, I'm going to try something I know actually works tolerably in WINE.
02:22:14 <cpressey> GO
02:22:16 <cpressey> totally
02:22:21 <alise> cpressey: what
02:22:24 <pikhq> Half-Life 2.
02:22:35 <alise> half-life 2 works tolerably in wine?
02:22:38 <alise> noted.
02:22:55 <pikhq> Steam is slower than hell, but yeah, it works just fine.
02:22:57 <alise> what about 1? :P
02:23:08 <pikhq> Half-Life 1 works 200% perfectly.
02:23:16 <Gregor> Half-Life 1 X-D
02:23:16 <pikhq> (that is to say, better than on Windows)
02:23:17 <alise> try as I might, I cannot think of anything stupider than steam
02:23:18 <Gregor> What a challenge.
02:23:20 <alise> why does steam even exist
02:23:25 <alise> Gregor: to be fair, WINE sucks shit
02:23:35 <Gregor> alise: WINE is fucking incredible.
02:23:39 <cpressey> you.... need ed to build Go
02:24:00 <alise> cpressey: dude, it's from the plan 9 guys
02:24:05 <alise> it even uses the plan 9 c compilers to compile it
02:24:09 <alise> and the same toolchain model
02:24:10 <alise> and linker
02:24:14 <alise> so yes, of course it freaking uses ed
02:24:20 <alise> Gregor: even Worms: Armageddon isn't a sure thing with wine
02:24:32 <cpressey> alise: ...
02:24:40 <alise> oh wait
02:24:46 <alise> cpressey: is this Go the board game, some computer version
02:24:48 <alise> or Go the language
02:24:49 <Gregor> The fact that any given program may or may not work under WINE is not a statement against WINE, regardless of how simple or complicated that program is.
02:25:00 <alise> Gregor: Yes it is, since WINE aims for Windows compatibility.
02:25:12 <cpressey> alise: doesn't matter, i've given up already
02:25:16 <cpressey> fuck this shit
02:25:20 <alise> cpressey: oh yeah, requiring ed
02:25:20 <Gregor> ANY GIVEN PROGRAM != lots and lots of programs.
02:25:22 <alise> that's so horrible
02:25:27 <alise> ed, the one thing guaranteed to be on any unix system
02:25:32 <alise> how could they possibly use it in their build system
02:25:39 <cpressey> alise: that's not ... look n/,
02:25:49 <alise> look n/,
02:25:50 <alise> what
02:25:57 <cpressey> never mind
02:26:05 <alise> please correct your line
02:26:19 <cpressey> "Alise, that's not... look, never mind."
02:26:20 <Gregor> Well, that's not look n/.
02:26:23 <Gregor> You must admit that.
02:28:20 <alise> HA! It actually just downloaded it from one source
02:28:27 <alise> and a torrent
02:28:30 <alise> so that's why it was a bit slow
02:28:31 <alise> oh well
02:29:39 <cpressey> alise: how, pray tell, shall i atone for my double ignorance that Go, the language, is from "the plan 9 guys" and that this means that "of course it freaking uses ed"?
02:30:10 * cpressey sacrifices a goat again
02:30:11 <alise> cpressey: You know... of all the things I could say to annoy you, picking on one that I didn't even say angrily probably isn't the best start.
02:31:44 <cpressey> i guess i should just get used to it
02:33:27 <alise> cpressey: haha sweet, PACKET commands aren't working
02:33:31 <alise> when booting pc-bsd in a vm
02:33:34 <alise> DAMN YOU PACKET MODE
02:34:35 <alise> "BIOS drive A: is disk0
02:34:40 <alise> BIOS drive C: is disk1"
02:34:46 <alise> Does the BIOS have a concept of drive letters?
02:34:58 <pikhq> alise: I've found that games using OpenGL pretty much "just work".
02:35:22 <coppro> or "just don't work"
02:35:30 <coppro> depending on your graphics card
02:35:32 <alise> pikhq: Worms: Armageddon is 2D, and the menu interface is done by drawing a Windows window with buttons and shit behind the rendered UI.
02:35:35 <alise> Oh, and text boxes.
02:35:45 <pikhq> alise: Hooray, crazy shit.
02:35:48 <alise> I know this because when it freezes you can see blank text boxes and buttons arranged in just the right shape.
02:36:00 <alise> pikhq: Surprisingly, for a game released in 1997, it is *still regularly updated*.
02:36:00 <alise> As in.
02:36:02 <alise> Actual features.
02:36:03 <alise> Polish.
02:36:04 <alise> etc.
02:36:09 <alise> A proprietary game at that.
02:36:27 <pikhq> That's... Crazy.
02:36:29 <pikhq> But awesome.
02:36:42 <alise> Why? Because some guy made this cheating software for it and everyone got angry, then he wrote another piece of software with the same name, that *disabled* the cheating software when playing over the 'net, and added some little useful features.
02:36:58 <alise> Then the company were like "ok you clearly know your shit, here, have a salary and the source code".
02:37:04 <alise> And... he's still at it, even after all these years.
02:37:05 <pikhq> That's totally awesome.
02:37:34 <alise> So you can play that game from 1997 at full widescreen resolution, and it's insanely polished. :)
02:37:54 <alise> A few sprites were even updated some years back just to look a little bit nicer while keeping in with the others.
02:38:34 <pikhq> '99, not '97. Still awesome.
02:38:44 <pikhq> Erm, no.
02:38:52 <pikhq> '99 was the last "official" release, rather than "beta".
02:38:59 <pikhq> Still.
02:39:06 <zzo38> The BIOS does have drive numbers. The BIOS assumes there can be up to 128 floppy drives and up to 128 hard drives.
02:39:08 <alise> Erm, yeah, 1999.
02:39:22 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, the game has been in "beta" ever since ... well, ever since years and years ago.
02:39:29 <alise> So in that community, "beta" means "updated".
02:39:39 <alise> This is because the patches were beta because they were experimental.
02:39:46 <alise> And then nobody bothered to make them not beta.
02:40:32 <alise> pikhq: BTW, it's a great game; highly recommended.
02:40:43 <alise> Turn-based artillery with, like, ten cupfuls of ridiculousness.
02:40:48 <pikhq> I've played Worms before. :)
02:40:51 <alise> Right.
02:40:57 <alise> pikhq: Ever played online? It's a whole new world.
02:41:01 <pikhq> Nope.
02:41:04 <alise> In fact, "regular" games are rather rare there; people are awful creative.
02:41:07 <coppro> <3 Team17
02:41:17 <alise> For instance, one of the most common game is a shopper.
02:41:31 <alise> You have to get a crate -- they fall every turn -- before attacking. You have to drop the attack from a rope.
02:41:48 <alise> And you have to kill the leader (or the second if you're the leader). (Or all but the last player, as a variant.)
02:42:08 * coppro must have
02:42:20 <alise> Then you get things like ropers, with a very limited set of weapons and the same rules as a shopper, but played on a two-island map and with just the right amount of water that you can knock someone in without drowning when you land. (Yeah, that's weird.)
02:42:24 <alise> Oh yeah, and the turn time is 15 seconds.
02:42:26 <alise> A bit frantic.
02:42:28 <alise> coppro: must have what?
02:42:31 <alise> W:A?
02:42:40 <alise> Hmm, it actually doesn't have the colon. Whatever.
02:42:55 <alise> If you do mean WA, I'm rather surprised that you know of Team17 but don't own it.
02:43:10 <pikhq> God dammit.
02:43:23 <pikhq> Steam has stopped supporting Win2k.
02:43:34 <alise> Sucks Tobe you.
02:43:37 <alise> Yes indeed, you suck Tobe.
02:43:41 <Gregor> Suck Tobe, you!
02:44:23 <coppro> alise: I have never actually acquired a worms game, yet I have played them regularly at others' places
02:44:35 <coppro> mainly because I keep forgetting
02:44:38 <Gregor> (Tobe's place)
02:44:46 <alise> coppro: You can only buy the Sold-Out version now I think.
02:44:52 <alise> And I don't really know if Team17 make more than a penny of that.
02:45:00 <alise> Piracy half-recommended.
02:45:10 <coppro> sounds about right
02:45:28 <alise> I'm not sure *why* they pay Deadcode and I think CyberShadow now to maintain the game.
02:45:39 <alise> Maybe for fan goodwill. :)
02:46:42 <pikhq> Some corporations list goodwill as assets in their yearly reports for the stock exchange...
02:47:36 <coppro> alise: because they are friggin awesome
02:47:49 <alise> That they are.
02:47:53 <alise> They are perhaps the coolest games company ever.
02:47:58 <coppro> definitely up there
02:47:59 <alise> Except maybe Introversion.
02:48:11 <coppro> worms 3d isn't all that bad either
02:48:22 <pikhq> BTW, the last update came out 2 years ago...
02:48:42 <coppro> which is impressive, given that it's a 3d artillery game
02:48:56 <alise> pikhq: well.
02:49:01 <alise> pikhq: after iterating for that many years
02:49:02 <alise> what more can you do?
02:49:10 <alise> but -- as far as i am aware it is still being developed
02:49:10 <pikhq> alise: Okay, true.
02:49:15 <alise> coppro: worms 3d is pretty bad but not that bad
02:49:22 <alise> after worms 4 they decided "fuck this 3d bullshit"
02:49:26 <alise> and now they only do 2d
02:49:34 <alise> they released a new 2d worms game for pc but it doesn't look all that hot
02:49:53 <alise> [[In February 2004, a small group of fans launched a Team17 fansite called Dream17. The company gave Dream17 permission to make their entire Amiga back-catalog of games available as free downloads in both ADF and IPF disk image formats.]]
02:49:55 <alise> coppro: pikhq: ^
02:49:58 <alise> WHO IS THAT AWESOME?
02:50:13 <alise> "Our old Amiga games? Sure, you can post all of those. For free."
02:50:30 <pikhq> alise: That's pretty dang awesome.
02:51:15 <coppro> I lol at how EA handled the old C&C games
02:51:15 <pikhq> alise: Oh, I found CyberShadow's Worms blog.
02:51:34 <alise> link me? xD
02:51:41 <pikhq> http://blog.worms2d.info/
02:51:48 <alise> he's actually on my msn list... although i forget why
02:51:49 <coppro> "Here, have it free. You can download a patch at [dead third-party link]"
02:51:51 <pikhq> Seems that WINE works if you just use a different DirectDraw DLL.
02:52:01 <pikhq> And the next patch will have it work out-of-the-box.
02:52:05 <alise> ah yes, that
02:52:24 <alise> the people online can be a bit lame
02:52:30 <alise> they're v. noob intolerant at least when i played
02:52:45 <pikhq> Yes, they're working on WINE support.
02:52:53 <alise> recite the rules to the game (e.g. "afr cba abl" for a shopper (attack from rope, crate before attack and all but last)) or get kicked instantly
02:52:54 <pikhq> If only everyone could be so awesome.
02:53:02 <alise> "In other news, our Wine users may be delighted to know that starting with the next Worms Armageddon update, they will no longer need a patched DirectDraw DLL. W:A will run out of the box!"
02:53:03 <alise> <3
02:53:14 <pikhq> If only everyone could be so awesome.
02:53:16 <alise> http://dump.thecybershadow.net/408ac203082e5044bded2e7bdacd84e0/screen0557.png
02:53:20 <alise> OMG THINGS TO TWEAK
02:53:21 <alise> I LIKE
02:53:41 <alise> "Force Wine virtual desktop".
02:53:46 <alise> ...why can't everyone have Wine-specific options? :P
02:53:56 <alise> pikhq: HAHA: http://dump.thecybershadow.net/a9c47ea3f6ef7937363241e912825274/screenshot.png
02:54:07 <alise> Worms World Party is the same as Worms Armageddon except it never got updated and the graphics were cutesy and shit.
02:54:19 <alise> So that, right there, is an outright admission that Worms World Party is the shitty version of W:A.
02:55:33 <pikhq> alise: HAH
02:56:00 <alise> http://blog.worms2d.info/mountain-sheep ;; wat
02:56:05 <alise> In which a sheep is magical.
02:56:46 <alise> hey they finally added clickable links
02:57:03 <alise> pikhq: Fun fact: The online WA system is based on *IRC*.
02:57:12 <coppro> wait, really?
02:57:16 <alise> pikhq: That's why it's #AnythingGoes, etc. They're IRC channels. That's how the chat works. There's even a help bot.
02:57:17 <alise> coppro: BUT
02:57:20 <alise> Don't get too excited.
02:57:25 <alise> They really hate it when you connect with an IRC client.
02:57:27 <alise> Or, well, did.
02:57:32 <alise> I think they probably care less nowadays.
02:57:34 <alise> But still...
02:57:37 <alise> You gotta admire that decision.
02:57:46 <alise> "So, we have rooms that people can chat in... okay, let's just use IRC."
02:57:55 <coppro> yeah, IRC is a significantly saner choice
02:58:00 <coppro> don't reinvent the wheel
02:58:17 <alise> It even has an MOTD :)
02:58:31 <alise> Oh, and there has been a few third-party servers released over the years, I dunno if any ones are public/current.
02:58:42 <alise> coppro: The login-system -- which no longer requires a password unlike the old days -- is inexplicably based on HTML.
02:58:45 <pikhq> alise: Beautiful.
02:58:55 <alise> You have a list of Wormnet servers in your game installation as an HTML file, which the game displays customly.
02:59:03 <alise> You click them, and it goes to an HTML login page on the server, which is custom-processed somehow.
02:59:10 <coppro> Oo
02:59:17 <alise> So you can actually edit the server list -- but getting it to actually connect to something else is a chore.
02:59:22 <alise> I think I got some server software working once.
02:59:32 <alise> But still, that's a dual IRC/HTTP/WormNet server you have to have there.
02:59:37 <alise> Not simple!
03:00:03 <coppro> in all honesty, I'd probably just implement most of the client protocol over DCC for something like Worms
03:00:06 <alise> http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5736 tool-assisted speedrun of a rope race level
03:00:13 <alise> coppro: err, latency is a real problem
03:00:18 <alise> the actual game has to be super-optimised
03:00:24 <coppro> oh, really?
03:00:24 <alise> because a lot of people with suboptimal net connections play it
03:00:28 <alise> even one or two dialuppers
03:00:30 <coppro> ah, fair
03:00:33 <alise> coppro: you see them moving while their turn is giong
03:00:34 <alise> *going
03:00:37 <alise> and have chat at the same time
03:00:41 <alise> so yeah
03:00:47 <alise> it's not like it just shows you what they do after the fact
03:00:50 <alise> you see what they see
03:01:30 * alise watches http://lex.clansfx.co.uk/worms/movies/Lex%20-%20TAS%20of%20Pi%27s%20Mission%20Impossible%202%20rope%20race%20-%2021.86%20sec%20-%20no-death%20ending.x264.avi
03:02:13 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
03:02:24 <alise> omg
03:02:26 <alise> watch that video now
03:02:28 <alise> it is hilarious
03:03:14 <pikhq> Nice.
03:03:18 <alise> coppro: hey, Lex is in Waterloo too!
03:03:22 <alise> at least as of 2007-07
03:03:29 <alise> maybe he goes to your uni :)
03:04:21 <Rugxulo> ?
03:05:02 <alise> Rugxulo: people.
03:05:30 <Rugxulo> <alise> entrant in my Most Xenophobic Comment of the Year award
03:06:50 <Rugxulo> no, I just think Unicode is a bit overrated, that's all
03:07:00 <alise> you think everything invented post-1990 is overrated
03:07:09 <Rugxulo> pretty much!
03:07:36 <Rugxulo> well, make that 1993 and you're correct ;-)
03:08:00 <coppro> alise: unlikely but possible?
03:08:17 <coppro> alise: can you get a full name?
03:08:25 <alise> coppro: "Lex, the worms guy"
03:08:32 <alise> i uh, i did talk to him at one point
03:08:37 <alise> not sure about full name though :D
03:08:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: How's Unicode overrated?
03:09:07 <coppro> alise: I could check if he's (or if someone of the same name is, anyway) at the uni with a full name
03:09:08 <Rugxulo> make that Unicode support is overrated
03:09:18 <Rugxulo> or hard to do, anyways
03:09:25 <Rugxulo> for questionable benefit (in some situations)
03:09:41 <pikhq> How's Unicode support overrated?
03:09:55 <alise> pikhq: because we're AMERICAN!
03:10:01 <alise> and we don't need any other languages!
03:10:07 <Rugxulo> my philosophy is more minimalist than "add everything and the kitchen sink and deprecate everything every 2 years"
03:10:11 <alise> coppro: can't you just search for everyone named Lex/Alex :D
03:10:19 <coppro> alise: I suppose I could try
03:10:34 <alise> Rugxulo: yes, because everyone who speaks a non-English language should be ignored for your silly philosophy designed solely so that you can claim everything modern is bloated
03:10:53 <Rugxulo> no, and I didn't say that
03:10:56 <Rugxulo> ;-)
03:10:59 <coppro> alise: too many higts
03:11:03 <Rugxulo> I just don't like modern OSes and all their crap
03:11:04 <coppro> *hits
03:11:26 <alise> Location
03:11:26 <alise> Guelph, Ontario
03:11:32 <alise> coppro: never mind.
03:11:39 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Are you aware what the alternative to Unicode (or something similar) is?
03:11:43 <alise> coppro: he may have graduated.
03:11:56 <alise> Date of Birth
03:11:56 <alise> October 26, 1987 (22)
03:12:15 <coppro> ah
03:12:16 <Rugxulo> I didn't say NLS / i18n / etc. is bad, just sometimes overkill and bloated and hard to implement and ....
03:12:26 <pikhq> I'll tell you. It's hundreds of entirely different and inherently incompatible character encodings.
03:13:00 <coppro> Unicode is the best thing to happen to character encodings since the invention of the letter
03:13:34 <Rugxulo> BTW, wasn't Unicode invented in like 1993? (so maybe it's not so bad after all, heh)
03:13:44 <pikhq> And the bloat (yes, *bloat*) necessary to be able to parse *each and every one of them* everywhere that more than one encoding is needed.
03:13:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: 1991.
03:14:06 <pikhq> (and keep in mind that there's generally more than one encoding per language!)
03:14:19 <Rugxulo> pikhq, I'm not quite the rube you think I am (though close enough!)
03:14:36 <Rugxulo> I'm just saying, some things don't need to be internationalized
03:14:43 <zzo38> I have some problems with Unicode also, but I can think of a different way to make the code supporting all language and other things, too. One thing is to make a code point number encode all properties necessary to typeset/parse a character
03:15:22 <Rugxulo> besides, most programs still don't have NLS text for their interfaces (e.g. GNU Emacs)
03:15:24 <zzo38> Another way is that it includes variation mode and various other modes, too.
03:15:52 <Rugxulo> standards are good ... to a point, but sometimes they are overkill or badly designed or heavily ignored or whatever
03:16:10 <zzo38> Rugxulo: Yes I think in many cases that is
03:16:38 <pikhq> For English, there's ASCII, ISO 8859-1, Windows-1252, EBCDIC, Mac OS Roman, ANSEL.
03:16:59 <pikhq> Oh, and code page 437.
03:17:17 <Rugxulo> pikhq, some people never supported all the 8859-x ones at all, only Latin-1 (at best) despite them being designed at the same time (at least the first four)
03:17:27 <Rugxulo> 1986, IIRC
03:17:37 <Rugxulo> so that's just lame, so much for standards ... the fact is nobody cares :-(
03:17:46 <pikhq> Yes, you'd need to handle 7 different character encodings *just to handle arbitrary English text*.
03:18:03 <Rugxulo> not really
03:18:13 <Rugxulo> but I admit there's quite a lot of incompatible data out there
03:18:33 <pikhq> And this is for a relatively simple set of glyphs.
03:18:55 <pikhq> It gets even more horrifying if you look into CJK.
03:19:44 <Rugxulo> it may sound good to support every language under the sun, but that gets tedious (and expensive)
03:20:43 <Rugxulo> face it, some languages are more equal than others :-(
03:21:14 <pikhq> It's trivial to make it possible to *deal with text* in every language under the sun.
03:21:22 <pikhq> Just implement Unicode.
03:21:40 <Rugxulo> and how many glyphs, ten thousand??
03:22:06 <cpressey> Unicode is UTF-8
03:22:15 * cpressey deep troll
03:22:23 <zzo38> UTF-8 is one way of encoding Unicode characters
03:22:30 <zzo38> The other way is UTF-16
03:22:40 <Rugxulo> or UTF-32 (Emacs??)
03:23:59 <Rugxulo> I just hate modern computers, they're so horribly inefficient
03:24:19 <Rugxulo> I shouldn't blame Unicode for that, but it hasn't helped!
03:24:20 <Gregor> There are plenty of ways.
03:24:22 <pikhq> JIS X 0201, JIS X 0208, JIS X 0212, JIS X 0213, Shift-JIS, code page 932, ISO-2022-JP, EUC-JP.
03:24:32 <Gregor> UTF-8, UCS-1, UTF-16, UCS-2, UTF-32 and UCS-4 are some of them.
03:24:33 <pikhq> All this *just for Japanese text*.
03:24:37 <Gregor> Some of those may be equivalent :P
03:24:44 <Gregor> Also, UTF-16-LE is different from UTF-16-BE.
03:24:45 <Gregor> Same for -32
03:24:52 <pikhq> And here's the thing. You need to implement *all of them* for a Japanese localisation.
03:25:02 <cpressey> Also, UTF-99, which I just made up.
03:25:25 <pikhq> Also, UTF-9 and UTF-18, which are real things.
03:25:32 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes yes. Japanese sucks. And everybody who speaks it (through tar-filled lungs) is terrible. WE KNOW!
03:25:45 <Gregor> Oh, and UTF-7, right?
03:25:50 <pikhq> Gregor: Written Chinese is worse.
03:26:15 <cpressey> "through tar-filled lungs"? I suddenly suspect there are whole layers of meaning here that I'm not catching
03:26:31 <Gregor> cpressey: All Japanese men smoke. ALL OF THEM.
03:26:34 <pikhq> Hong Kong, Taiwan, and PRC all defined their own completely different standards, you see.
03:26:37 <pikhq> cpressey: He's right.
03:26:44 <Rugxulo> I'm in favor of whatever works, just some things work so badly / slowly / or not at all !!!!
03:27:05 <cpressey> That's interesting. It never occurred to me before. But it's probably true.
03:27:08 <Rugxulo> Hong Kong is part of PRC now (but I digress...)
03:27:17 <pikhq> Rugxulo: They still do their own standards.
03:27:28 <Gregor> It's owned by the PRC, but it's politically mostly-distinct for the time being.
03:27:34 <Rugxulo> Taiwan is too (according to PRC) but they disagree
03:27:43 <alise> taiwan is not owned by the prc
03:27:50 <alise> in any sense but according to the prc's fantasy world
03:27:58 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Unicode is the *only thing* that works for handling international text, and just about the only thing that works for single-language text.
03:28:03 <cpressey> My Neighbors the Yamadas
03:28:15 <Rugxulo> single-language? uh ... heh
03:28:28 <pikhq> (English could get away without it if we could *just agree on ASCII*. But no, have to expand the higher 7 bits)
03:28:28 <Gregor> alise: And yet, it is the official policy of any country wanting to do trade with China (e.g. us) that Taiwan IS owned by the PRC.
03:28:52 <pikhq> Gregor: The official policy of the US is that Taiwan both IS and ISNT owned by the PRC.
03:29:21 <pikhq> Gregor: We both don't recognise Taiwan as a seperate country and legally mandate that they are a seperate country.
03:29:30 <Gregor> Sweet :P
03:29:58 <pikhq> Oh, and we are legally obligated to supply them with as many arms as they request.
03:30:53 <cpressey> quantum mechanics meets foreign policy
03:30:57 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Are you familiar with mojibake (文字化け)?
03:31:02 <Gregor> Well, if Taiwan actually went to war with China, there is no question that we would take Taiwan's side.
03:31:04 <Rugxulo> no
03:31:42 <pikhq> It's what happens when text in one character encoding gets interpreted as a different encoding.
03:32:18 <Gregor> pikhq: PLEASE tell me the name comes from something simple interpreted in the wrong encoding?
03:32:43 <Rugxulo> pikhq, Esperanto? (yeah, I knew you'd hate that) ... just saying, Unicode is fine in moderately reasonable doses ;-)
03:32:43 <pikhq> The *only* languages that has this end up in even slightly readable text are the ones using the Roman alphabet, because most encodings are a superset of ASCII.
03:32:47 <pikhq> Gregor: Nope.
03:33:03 <Gregor> pikhq: D'awwwww :(
03:33:10 <pikhq> Gregor: We are legally obligated to take Taiwan's side.
03:33:23 <pikhq> Gregor: "Changed characters", BTW.
03:33:33 <Gregor> pikhq: We're legally obligated to respect the land claims of Native Americans.
03:33:36 <Rugxulo> we still have troops in dang Korea, for freak's sake!!! it's been 60 years!!!
03:33:43 <coppro> it's still a war
03:33:56 <Rugxulo> heh, those krazy korean gov'ts
03:34:12 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yeah, we are still at war with North Korea. So... Yeah.
03:34:26 <alise> pikhq: wasn't it ended recently
03:34:30 <Rugxulo> we who? U.S.?
03:34:48 <Rugxulo> it's all a formality
03:34:49 <Gregor> America was never officially at war with N. Korea was it? It was a UN police action, so there was no formal declaration of war from us? Or is that a total lie?
03:34:51 <Rugxulo> we're not really at war
03:35:01 <alise> YOU DON'T SAY
03:35:16 <Rugxulo> 1950-3 was the Korean War, very bloody, U.S. vs. Chinese???
03:35:24 <pikhq> alise: Nope.
03:35:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: In 1953, the *cease fire* was signed.
03:36:38 <pikhq> Rugxulo: "We" being the United Nations.
03:37:17 <pikhq> Under the command of the USA.
03:38:30 <pikhq> Ah, apparently the war is de jure between the South and the North, with the US in command of the South.
03:39:15 <pikhq> Still not over.
03:49:06 <cpressey> i don't know any programming languages from south korea.
03:49:12 <cpressey> know of.
03:49:35 <cpressey> no, that's not true.
03:49:47 <cpressey> the only programming language from south korea i know of, is an esolang.
03:55:09 <Rugxulo> there was a guy who made a Han-capable Forth
03:55:18 <Rugxulo> hForth perhaps (I forget)
03:55:26 <Rugxulo> and yes, I've heard of that Korean esolang, barely
03:55:49 <Rugxulo> hForth ran in DOS, no less ;-)
03:56:26 <Rugxulo> yeah, I dunno, computers got too complicated somewhere along the way, now nobody can barely use them they're so confusing and inefficient
03:56:58 <Rugxulo> all because pikhq had to have his silly Unicode ;-) j/k
03:58:47 <pikhq> Hey, just because I demand Unicode doesn't mean I want complexity.
03:58:55 <Rugxulo> I know, it was a joke
03:59:10 <Rugxulo> I don't hate Unicode, really, and I'm no xenophobe :-P
03:59:17 <pikhq> I still think DOS was a decent OS, for instance. :P
03:59:40 <pikhq> Limited, to be sure, but there's a certain charm to it as well.
03:59:52 <Rugxulo> extremely minimal, upgraded in very small pieces, modular (though not really portable)
04:00:12 <Rugxulo> I mean, when the IBM PC 5150 only came with 16 kb of RAM (!), what else could you run???
04:00:19 <pikhq> CPM.
04:00:20 <pikhq> :)
04:00:28 <Rugxulo> CP/M-86 wasn't out yet
04:00:34 <Rugxulo> and was way more expensive
04:00:51 <pikhq> Beside the point.
04:01:46 <Rugxulo> nowadays you need at least 200 kb free just to run DOS (bloat!!!) ;-))
04:03:24 <Rugxulo> it just bugs me when people act like you can't even edit a text file without 600 MB of RAM
04:03:42 <Rugxulo> and yes, there are a few different Unicode editors for DOS (of varying abilities)
04:09:31 <alise> bnobody acts like that
04:09:33 <alise> strawman fallacy
04:10:34 <Rugxulo> yes they do
04:13:05 <alise> no they do not
04:14:25 <Rugxulo> anyways, gotta reboot
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04:26:47 <cpressey> i want to see more languages like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgoPl35n_AY
04:26:52 <cpressey> but i don't suppose i will
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04:39:39 <oerjan> <alise> (what is it about BSDs that attracts drama, btw?) <-- it's right there in the name. bondage, sadomasochism and drama.
04:44:07 <alise> goodnight
04:44:07 <alise> bye
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04:51:48 <cpressey> oerjan: you keep some unusual hours
04:52:05 <oerjan> yes.
05:14:06 <oerjan> <cpressey> the only programming language from south korea i know of, is an esolang.
05:14:19 <oerjan> we _do_ have a regular from there, you know
05:14:30 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Tokigun
05:15:18 <pikhq> WHY THATS CLEARLY NOT SOUTH KOREAN. ONLY AMERICA HAS INTERNET
05:15:43 <pikhq> Hrm. Wait. lifthrasiir is from South Korea?
05:15:54 <oerjan> /whois says so
05:16:04 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Never realised.
05:16:28 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Incidentally, what's the etymology of lifthrasiir and/or tokigun?
05:16:41 <cpressey> the esotope project, too
05:16:52 <oerjan> pikhq: he's been idle for 11 days so don't expect _too_ quick an answer
05:16:53 <cpressey> i had not realized.
05:17:27 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, well, I'm patient.
05:19:57 <coppro> TASes are so ridiculous
05:21:16 <pikhq> Robot. Cars.;
05:21:23 <pikhq> Google has a fleet of robot cars.
05:21:39 <coppro> we discuessed this already
05:21:44 <pikhq> Yes, but whoa.
05:22:01 * oerjan finds User:Puzzlet Chung, User:SteloKim, User:Tokigun and User:Gs30ng
05:24:00 <oerjan> And the languages Aheui, Udage and Versert.
05:28:20 <cpressey> The Versert link was broken for me though :(
05:31:08 <oerjan> http://mearie.org/projects/versert/ works
05:33:25 * cpressey edits wiki
05:35:51 <oerjan> i presume that might end up in korean for some people
05:35:59 <oerjan> they probably won't complain :D
05:36:02 <coppro> it's unclear if the registers have unbounded space or not
05:36:03 <coppro> which is vital
05:36:25 <oerjan> (it complained to me about not having a norwegian version)
05:36:50 <pikhq> Is it *actually doing language negotiation*?
05:37:05 <pikhq> Wonderful.
05:37:41 <pikhq> Though, the English sucks.
05:37:50 <oerjan> pikhq: sssh ;D
05:38:21 <pikhq> It's obviously human-written English, though. Which helps a lot.
05:38:40 <pikhq> Hell of a lot easier to read through grammar mistakes than through the sheer randomness that is machine translation.
05:41:04 <cpressey> oerjan: no norweigian for YOU, oerjan!
05:41:23 <pikhq> Only Swedish Chef!
05:41:30 <oerjan> Faens utlendinger som ikke kan snakke ordentlig!
05:42:09 <pikhq> Something about utlanning?
05:42:11 <cpressey> actually i liked the vlaah-python page, only available in Hangul. Of course, the Python example code is englishish. So you can try to figure out what the package provides, sort of!
05:42:26 <oerjan> pikhq: utlanning isn't a word
05:42:46 <pikhq> oerjan: Is in English.
05:42:47 <pikhq> :D
05:42:53 <oerjan> wat
05:43:13 <pikhq> ... Granted, mostly in the context of the Ender's Game series, by Orson Scott Card, but still.
05:43:48 <pikhq> oerjan: Strangers of one's own species & culture.
05:43:55 <oerjan> ah. it's obviously from swedish utlänning.
05:44:03 <pikhq> Yup.
05:44:57 <oerjan> in which case yeah, that's a cognate to what i wrote.
05:45:07 <pikhq> Likewise with framling, varelse, and djur.
05:45:49 <oerjan> norwegian would be fremmed, vesen, and dyr.
05:46:18 <oerjan> ...i think.
05:46:43 <pikhq> Literally, "stranger", "being", and "animal".
05:46:57 <oerjan> yes.
05:47:55 <pikhq> Referring to a stranger of one's own species but different culture, an intelligent species with which communication is impossible, and monsters, respectively.
05:48:32 <pikhq> (ramen, coming from who-knows-where, refers to another intelligence species with which communication & peaceful coexistence is possible.)
05:49:41 <oerjan> not raman? that's what showed up in the google hits for utlanning
05:50:02 <pikhq> Raman might be singular, hell if I know.
05:50:31 <pikhq> English is such a whore when it comes to vocabulary.
05:56:16 <coppro> trebly so for made-up vocabulary
05:56:38 <coppro> (and yes, I did just say that so I could use 'trebly' in a sentence)
05:56:58 <pikhq> coppro: Vejn
05:57:35 <oerjan> hm there is an adjective "rå", meaning raw. maybe it's a composition...
05:57:44 <coppro> pikhq: means nothing to me
05:58:14 <pikhq> coppro: "Win".
05:58:15 <oerjan> given that the last part is pluralized like man/men
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06:14:16 <pikhq> The BBC has estabilished a new guideline for science reporting.
06:14:34 <pikhq> All science news stories must now link to the paper in question.
06:20:08 <Slereah> Is it because of that satyrical article
06:28:10 * lifthrasiir back
06:31:41 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: lifthrasiir comes from Lífþrasir; tokigun roughly translates to Mr. Rabbit ("Toki" + "-gun"). I have chosen them to simply avoid duplicates.
06:32:03 <lifthrasiir> (and not using arbitrary numbers)
06:33:47 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Meaning of Lífþrasir?
06:33:52 <Ilari> Unfortunately, they still can report total garbage papers that shouldn't have been published (due to severe shortcomings) as gospel...
06:34:03 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%ADf_and_L%C3%ADf%C3%BErasir
06:34:11 <oerjan> norse myth
06:34:14 <coppro> More unfortunately, what if they can't link the journal because it isn't available online?
06:34:15 <lifthrasiir> Yup
06:34:21 <pikhq> Aaah.
06:34:38 <lifthrasiir> coppro: DOI?
06:34:44 <oerjan> clearly he's aiming to be the one to survive 2012, here
06:34:47 <coppro> DOI?
06:35:12 * pikhq finds it somewhat curious that Korean also has honorific suffixes...
06:35:29 <lifthrasiir> Digital object identifier. Mainly used for unique identification of documents, like papers.
06:35:40 <coppro> oh
06:35:49 <coppro> that's not a link!
06:35:50 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: That IS headache even for native speakers.
06:35:58 <Ilari> Like papers that mix up animal fats and techno fats... All the relevant scientists should know better not to do that kind of "research".
06:36:04 <oerjan> pikhq: i've read that korean grammar parallels japanese in many ways
06:36:21 <pikhq> oerjan: From what I've seen of Korean grammar, it's fucking uncanny.
06:36:21 <lifthrasiir> coppro: That's shame, but that would be the best approximation to links...
06:36:56 <pikhq> Which *suggests* to me that Korean & Japonic are actually related languages.
06:37:04 <pikhq> Well Language families.
06:37:13 <oerjan> pikhq: or they might have had a strong sprachbund
06:37:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Damned strong sprachbund.
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06:38:08 <pikhq> ... And would have to have been rather long ago...
06:38:23 <pikhq> The apparently-cognate grammar features have been in both languages at least as long as they've been written.
06:38:54 <oerjan> pikhq: i read at one time that there are two languages in india in neigboring village or so that have exactly parallel grammars, but one is dravidian and the other indo-aryan
06:39:01 <oerjan> *villages
06:39:37 <oerjan> (well that last part should also be considered vague)
06:39:56 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: I can imagine the honorifics are a headache. Sure are in Japanese.
06:40:05 <oerjan> pikhq: but are the endings _phonetically_ similar?
06:40:45 * oerjan didn't have that impression, although he hasn't actually _seen_ examples
06:45:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Well, there are a number of proposed cognates...
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06:48:53 <pikhq> Still, hard to demonstrate without a time machine.
06:49:36 <pikhq> (the proposed Altaic cognates are merely *plausible*...)
06:51:44 <pikhq> Oh, and it's hard to just go out and point out random cognates in the two languages *now* because there's so much borrowing from Chinese that fully half of the vocabulary is cognate now.
06:52:33 <oerjan> sf idea: a korean/japanese researcher far in the future takes a time machine back to japan/korea to settle the matter. naturally he ends up founding the language he goes to investigate - a thousands of years descendant of the other
06:52:42 <oerjan> *back to ancient
06:52:53 <pikhq> That would be pretty great.
06:54:17 <oerjan> actually all the chinese loans might mess up that theory a bit...
06:55:10 <oerjan> maybe have a competing researcher from the other country for nice time-loop ness
07:03:10 <pikhq> Well, except the Chinese loans are one of the best documented things in linguistics.
07:04:15 <pikhq> The words composed from originally-Chinese morphemes are freaking called 漢語 [kango] (Chinese words) in Japanese.
07:07:31 <oerjan> i mean they would mess up the time travel theory :D
07:07:43 <pikhq> Ah.
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08:08:42 <cheater00> pikhq: i have this theory that japanese comes from the mongolian empire somehow
08:09:48 <cheater00> japanese is syntactically very similar to hungarian and finnish
08:10:16 <cheater00> if you think about the expansion of the mongolian empire, that's where the troops have or would have stopped if they started in mongolia
08:11:22 <cheater00> that went on for many years, certainly long enough to teach the locals how to write and to start talking with them (mongolians were not xenophobic, they cooperated with the skilled workers of the nations they were trying to conquer in fact)
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08:36:39 <Gregor> Gee.
08:36:48 <Gregor> VSTi's are better than SoundFonts.
08:36:53 <Gregor> In retrospect, duh.
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08:44:49 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-vst-2010-10-10.ogg Observe how my op. 11 string quartet becomes almost tolerable when played through a (free!) VSTi!
08:45:13 <Gregor> Not as good as it would be on real instruments, but an enormous improvement from anything else I've been able to do thusfar!
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09:56:09 <augur> happy 42 day!
10:01:20 <cheater99> only in 10 minutes
10:01:39 <cheater99> then it'll be 10/10/10 10:10:10 !!!
10:01:50 <augur> O_O
10:01:51 <cheater99> UTC!!!!!!
10:02:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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10:04:19 <oklopol> so in fact i had an alarm clock beep me up at the most important second of my life
10:04:27 <augur> oklopol!
10:04:29 <oklopol> well i was up already but anyway
10:04:32 * augur pounces oklopol
10:04:36 <oklopol> oh dear
10:04:49 <oklopol> yay kebab place opened
10:05:02 * augur eats oklopol's kebab
10:05:08 <oklopol> :(
10:05:14 <oklopol> well aren't you being mean
10:05:18 <augur> not that kebab ;o
10:05:23 <oklopol> ...oh!
10:05:27 <augur> yes!
10:05:37 <augur> the one made of lamb meat and yogurt sauce and pita!
10:05:45 <augur> om nom nom
10:05:50 <oklopol> well that's okay i can just buy two
10:06:19 <augur> night
10:07:19 <oklopol> good morning, sleep warning.
10:07:36 <oklopol> well that was stupid
10:07:40 <oklopol> have to take a dump ->
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10:13:53 <cheater99> oh wait
10:13:55 <cheater99> gmt is now utc+1
10:14:00 <cheater99> so utc is in one hour
10:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Waitwhat?
10:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> BST is definitely still in effect.
10:17:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, that's what you meant.
10:22:42 <cheater99> Ubuntu 10.10 Maverick Meerkat is released today (10/10/10) to get "the perfect 10"
10:22:44 <cheater99> haha
10:34:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god.
10:34:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Should I bother doing a full dist upgrade today?
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11:03:55 <cheater99> yes
11:03:57 <cheater99> you should
11:04:12 <cheater99> ais523: happy 10/10/10 10:10:10.10101010101010101010..
11:04:13 <cheater99> !
11:04:38 <ais523> cheater99: heh
11:04:43 <ais523> I was aware that time was coming up
11:04:43 <cheater99> it's in 7 minutes
11:04:45 <cheater99> make a wish
11:04:48 <ais523> not for me it isn't
11:04:50 <ais523> I'm in UTC+1
11:04:58 <cheater99> obv it's about UTC
11:05:06 <cheater99> i'm in UTC+2
11:17:20 <oklopol> utc+2 ftw!
11:19:36 <ais523> hmm, North Korea just got its own TLD
11:19:47 <ais523> that they actually run themselves, rather than delegating to the Chinese
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11:38:23 <cheater99> cool, i have never noticed that ubuntu has someplan9 packages
11:38:27 <cheater99> some plan9 packages
11:38:44 <cheater99> 9wm is an X window manager which attempts to emulate the Plan 9 window
11:38:44 <cheater99> manager 8-1/2 as far as possible within the constraints imposed by X.
11:38:53 <cheater99> 9base is a port of following original Plan 9 userland tools to Unix:
11:38:53 <cheater99> awk, basename, bc, cat, cleanname, date, dc, echo, grep, mk, rc, sed, seq,
11:38:53 <cheater99> sleep, sort, tee, test, touch, tr, uniq, and yacc.
11:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look. The Software Centre has started offering software to buy.
11:55:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder if this counts as shark-jumpery.
12:08:35 <fizzie> I'm not sure it counts, since they said they're going to when they introduced the Software Centre.
12:11:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, was that shark-jumpery?
12:12:03 <Phantom_Hoover> After all, they make all kinds of rhetoric about freedom.
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12:18:41 <fizzie> Yes, you see, you are free to not buy stuff. (They'll be introducing a limit of minimum monthly purchases in 2012; if you buy less than that, it'll start to disable features like 3D acceleration one by one.)
12:18:45 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: not true.)
12:28:03 <ais523> fizzie: if they did do that, someone would just patch it out
12:28:14 <ais523> so they probably wouldn't try, so as to not spoil their reputation
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12:48:07 <ais523> // In C there is no boolean type; a condition is true if
12:48:13 <ais523> // it equals 1 and is false otherwise.
12:48:22 <ais523> // For clarity, we can define some preprocessor aliases.
12:48:26 <ais523> #define TRUE 1
12:48:28 <ais523> #define FALSE 0
12:48:34 <ais523> hmm...
12:48:51 <ais523> (I'm teaching a bit of C as well as Java, now; if this is what I have to work from, it could be "interesting"...)
12:52:40 <oklopol> so apparently all discrete math is done in CS in most unis, so people who do research on the topological aspects of cellular automata will get to teach a bit of java as well
12:53:09 <oklopol> i'm certainly lucky to live in this particular university
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12:53:49 <fizzie> ais523: That sort of thing is just asking for someone to fail all "if (isalpha(c) == TRUE)"-like.
12:53:58 <ais523> I agree
12:54:05 <ais523> and will berate the lecturer at the next chance I get
12:54:32 <ais523> (are the ctype.h functions the only standard library ones that can return booleans that aren't 0/1?)
12:56:51 <fizzie> ais523: isfinite() and isinf() are defined to return "a nonzero value".
12:57:03 <fizzie> And isnan/isnormal/signbit too.
12:57:06 <ais523> good to know
12:57:23 <ais523> presumably, that's in case they're implemented with bit-twiddling on the float value interpreted as an int
12:57:27 <ais523> which is a plausible way to do it on some platforms
12:58:12 <fizzie> Also: "The raise function returns zero if successful, nonzero if unsuccessful."
12:58:32 <fizzie> But that's not very "boolean" anyway.
12:58:34 <oklopol> RAISE?
12:58:36 <oklopol> *raise
12:58:42 <fizzie> The thing that sends a signal.
12:58:48 <oklopol> oh
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13:03:18 <cheater99> who here eats muesli?
13:03:38 <oklopol> i would if someone bought them
13:03:57 <cheater99> i have found the ultimate muesli fruit
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13:05:08 <cheater99> i guess that's not that interesting though
13:05:31 <oklopol> :)
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13:53:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there some deep and meaningful connection between the harmonic numbers and ln?
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14:02:40 <cheater99> yes
14:02:44 <cheater99> the riemann zeta function
14:04:41 <cheater99> In the limit of n\rightarrow \infty, the generalized harmonic number converges to the Riemann zeta function
14:04:41 <cheater99> \lim_{n\rightarrow \infty} H_{n,m} = \zeta(m).
14:05:08 <cheater99> H_n = H_n,1 of course
14:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> And where does ln fit in?
14:13:21 <cheater99> well it's very simple
14:14:01 <cheater99> \Zeta' (0, 1+a) = \Zeta' (0, a) + ln a
14:19:03 <cheater99> i think i have finally found a media player which is cooler than deadbeef
14:19:06 <cheater99> it is aqualung
14:25:36 <cheater99> hm
14:26:07 <cheater99> when a WPA2 PSK authentication happens, one side sents out the salted hash of the key, and the other side computes their own version, and checks the hashes for equality, yes?
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14:35:51 <fizzie> I assumed the PSK mode doesn't really do any authentication exchanges, it just derives the main CCMP encryption key from the passphrase. There's a MAC in the packet anyway, so wrong-key packets get discarded. But that was completely a guess, I've never looked into how it works.
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14:44:34 <oerjan> 00:09:48 <cheater00> japanese is syntactically very similar to hungarian and finnish
14:44:38 <oerjan> 00:10:16 <cheater00> if you think about the expansion of the mongolian empire, that's where the troops have or would have stopped if they started in mongolia
14:44:58 <oerjan> unfortunately the timing is _severely_ off for that theory.
14:46:09 <oerjan> as in, any relation between hungarian/finnish (uralic languages) and japanese predates the mongol empire (1200's) by thousands of years.
14:47:25 <oerjan> btw the uralic languages are one of the _best_ attested language families, iirc it was the first to be discovered.
14:49:50 <oerjan> also both finnish and hungarian have been seriously europeanized. in fact just today i saw hungarian listed as the one non-indoeuropean language in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European
14:51:04 <oerjan> (finnish isn't quite as affected - it has no articles for one thing, although neither does some other eastern european languages such as russian and polish.)
14:52:01 <oerjan> however one europeanization i recall that finnish has but not hungarian is adjective/noun agreement
14:52:48 <oerjan> (there might be others i just don't know about)
14:54:44 <oerjan> cheater: oh and one even more damning fact: japan was never conquered by the mongol empire :D
14:55:24 <oerjan> (actually i don't think the finns were either, not sure about the hungarians)
14:55:48 <oerjan> (the finns were already busy being conquered by the swedes)
14:56:02 <oklopol> what's adjective/noun agreement?
14:56:24 <oerjan> oklopol: case and number, iirc in finnish
14:56:33 <oklopol> yeah
14:56:57 <oerjan> of course other languages have gender as well / instead, and norwegian and swedish have definiteness
14:57:35 <oerjan> while in hungarian adjectives are not inflected for case or number unless they're used alone
14:57:59 <oklopol> what about estonian?
14:58:01 <oklopol> i should know
14:58:01 <oerjan> in fact even _nouns_ aren't inflected for number if there is an actual number word before them
14:58:12 <oerjan> i don't know about estonian
14:58:18 <oklopol> you should
14:58:34 <oerjan> it's pretty close to finnish but i don
14:59:10 <oklopol> heheheheh you accidentally
14:59:11 <oerjan> 't know if it has agreement, given that that was borrowed afaiu from other european languages
15:00:41 <oklopol> "<oerjan> novay" oh because it sounds a bit like nivat
15:01:05 <oerjan> (as for verb/noun agreement, hungarian has _more_ of that than either finnish or the others ... but basque has even more i've read)
15:01:52 <oerjan> (in hungarian in addition to person/number agreement with the subject there is also definiteness agreement with the _object_)
15:02:05 <oerjan> oklopol: took you long enough ;D
15:03:49 <oklopol> "<oklopol> you've hallucinated?" "<oklopol> are you still in that institution thing" <<< my train of thought may be embarrassingly obvious :D
15:03:58 <oklopol> "oh so maybe he really was crazy!"
15:04:11 <oklopol> (disclaimer: i don't remember what my train of thought was)
15:04:31 <oerjan> it probably ran off the tracks, crashed and exploded
15:06:30 <oklopol> oerjan is funny
15:06:46 <oklopol> oerjan: did you play piano as a kid
15:07:31 <oerjan> i recall there were two attempts to teach it to me
15:08:01 <oklopol> but did your parents send you to take piano lessons
15:08:03 <oerjan> however, the complete lack of a piano in our home probably did not help
15:08:15 <oklopol> or like your cousin tried to teach you something
15:08:21 <oklopol> ah okay
15:08:35 <oklopol> then it makes sense
15:08:58 <oerjan> well it was lessons, somewhat
15:09:30 <oerjan> i think i got started on either Madeleine of Für Elise, not quite sure which is which
15:09:30 <oklopol> well i didn't expect any kind of dedication, although maybe more than 2 lessons
15:09:41 <oerjan> maybe it was one each time
15:09:42 <oklopol> fur elise is 767672530
15:10:01 <oklopol> dunno madeleine by name
15:10:32 <oklopol> that's chromatic scale, e eb e eb e h d c a on the retarded scale
15:10:38 <oerjan> one of the teachers was the neighboring kid. he went on to a career as a musician, as did his brother
15:11:38 <oklopol> so you lived in a small neighborhood
15:12:02 <oklopol> i guess that makes sense, have you lived in trondheim all your life
15:12:07 <oerjan> um no
15:12:08 <oklopol> or whateverheim
15:12:30 <oerjan> i come from a small town by the name of Sandnessjøen
15:13:09 <oklopol> did you move to trondheim with your parents or later on by yourself
15:13:15 <oklopol> what color underwear do you prefer
15:13:23 <oerjan> i moved to trondheim to start university
15:13:34 <oklopol> but alone?
15:13:39 <oerjan> my parents never moved
15:13:40 <oklopol> that much was obvious
15:13:42 <oklopol> okay
15:13:55 <oklopol> that's all
15:13:59 <oklopol> FOR NOW
15:14:11 <oerjan> well apart from my dad moving house within the town
15:15:23 <oklopol> so... are your parents divorced?
15:15:33 <oklopol> that's not very that was ally
15:15:39 <oklopol> soprry
15:15:51 <oklopol> *sorry
15:15:57 <oerjan> oh it was probably adeline not madeleine
15:15:58 <oklopol> guess i'm not completely sopr yet huh?!?
15:16:24 <oerjan> hey you were ordered to stop pretending!
15:16:30 <oerjan> divorced when i was 10
15:16:52 <oklopol> ?
15:16:53 <oklopol> oh
15:17:11 <oklopol> i didn't see that coming
15:17:36 <oklopol> hmm
15:18:02 * oerjan didn't know adeline was that new, thought it was something classic
15:18:36 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uk2q1dP_t8 ?
15:19:22 <oklopol> here? i have something to say to you. ou realy wanna make feels people, the begenning it have to be slow and feel what are you playing. i know that it beautiful how you played but you need feelings.
15:19:37 <oerjan> yep
15:19:43 <oerjan> (that was it)
15:19:44 -!- nooga has joined.
15:19:58 <nooga> ;f
15:20:21 <oklopol> nooga: do you wanna make feels people?
15:20:31 <oerjan> ...i'm starting to think you really _are_ drunk
15:20:43 <oklopol> :D
15:22:00 <oklopol> i've had this tiny hangoverlet all day, but the only thing i was gonna do today was referee this paper and that tiny bit of not being at my 100%est makes that impossible
15:22:04 <oklopol> so i've just been staring at this computer
15:22:27 <oklopol> my point being: i referee papers now, isn't that just so cool
15:22:39 <oerjan> i didn't know hangoverlets gave you atrocious spelling
15:23:04 <oklopol> where did i fail at spelling?
15:23:06 <oklopol> oh
15:23:11 <oklopol> that youtube comment?
15:23:18 <oerjan> oh it was a paste? :D
15:23:18 <oklopol> that was a youtube comment, actually
15:23:29 <oerjan> ok that makes more sense then :D
15:23:42 <oklopol> i would have to be pretty drunk to tell someone they play well but lack FEELING
15:24:01 <oklopol> if you bash the right keys at the right time, you're playing perfectly
15:24:37 <oerjan> ...i think there is more to it than just timing
15:25:01 <oklopol> well, all notes must be bashed at the same force
15:25:03 <oklopol> maximal force
15:25:19 <oerjan> ...TOO MUCH FEELING
15:25:32 <nooga> oklopol: whaaa?
15:25:43 <nooga> hangoverlet :D
15:26:00 <oerjan> nooga: it's a perfectly cromulent word
15:26:07 <nooga> cromulent :D
15:26:27 <oklopol> -let is an all-purpose diminutive suffix
15:26:41 * oerjan wonders if nooga is failing at memes there
15:26:47 <olsner> ... and cromulent itself is probably *the* most cromulent word there is
15:27:06 <oerjan> olsner: especially in this situation
15:27:22 <nooga> yeah
15:27:34 <nooga> i didn't know that
15:28:05 <oerjan> well now you've been embiggened
15:28:06 <oklopol> what i've always wanted to know is whether memes have always existed
15:28:36 * oerjan hasn't even seen that episode
15:28:55 <oklopol> erm
15:28:57 <oklopol> whoosh
15:29:08 <oerjan> but absorbing memes from the internet, yessir
15:29:09 <oklopol> <- whoosh here
15:29:29 <oklopol> <- bad case of the whooshs
15:29:37 <oerjan> sheesh
15:29:56 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_the_Iconoclast
15:31:10 <oklopol> oh that's from simpsons :D
15:31:24 <oklopol> i thought it was xkcd :D
15:32:21 <oklopol> "<oerjan> but absorbing memes from the internet, yessir" <<< you think even internet memes have always existed?
15:32:26 <oklopol> that's a bit radical imo
15:34:05 <oerjan> where did i say that
15:34:21 <oklopol> oh you were referring to oh okaty
15:34:24 <oklopol> okaty tokayt
15:34:38 <oklopol> i knew i misunderstood, but didn't feel like thinking so i asked
15:34:53 <oerjan> yeah thinking is _so_ last millennium
15:35:31 <oklopol> yeah it's so last interval between two non-primitive words
15:35:55 <oklopol> i mean
15:36:08 <oklopol> wem
15:36:10 <oklopol> *erm
15:36:15 <oklopol> hard to explain, surely you see what i mean
15:36:52 <oklopol> (hint: what's special about today)
15:37:13 <oerjan> as for whether memes have always existed, i recall someone pointing out how much of shakespeare's work consists of long forgotten inside jokes
15:37:37 <oerjan> or forgotten by everyone not a shakespeare scholar, anyway
15:38:10 <oklopol> yes yes but did you get me
15:39:30 <oerjan> as for special about today i'm well-prepared, as the VG paper had an article about kids with their 10th birthday today
15:39:46 <oklopol> for everybody's convenience, w^+ is primitive if there is no u in A^+ and n > 1 such that w = u^n
15:39:49 <oklopol> erm
15:40:00 <oklopol> *... w \in A^+ is primitive ...
15:40:29 <oklopol> and vg is...?
15:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, that out-pointing was by Randall Munroe.
15:40:47 <oerjan> second largest norwegian newspaper
15:40:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Q.E.D.
15:40:51 <oklopol> okay
15:41:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ah.
15:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> He phrased it as "hey, I've read annotated Shakespeare look how insightful I am."
15:42:07 <oerjan> ...haters gonna hate ;D
15:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's just that that one really hit a nerve...
15:43:04 <oklopol> what's annotated shakespeare
15:43:20 <oklopol> like a voiceover
15:43:51 <olsner> or perhaps he was exumed and used as writing paper?
15:44:02 <oklopol> maybe, maybe
15:44:09 * oerjan swats oklopol and olsner -----###
15:44:14 <oklopol> ouch
15:44:36 <oerjan> also, *exhumed
15:45:05 <oerjan> from latin humus, meaning iirc soil
15:45:11 <oklopol> because no one's still acknowledged my joke, 101010101010 = (10)^6, which is not primitive
15:47:12 <oerjan> well just two more years until this stops
15:47:59 <oklopol> there's a non-primitive second next year
15:48:08 <oklopol> 101011101011
15:48:27 <oklopol> but clearly (?) no other one this year
15:48:52 <oklopol> every non-primitive second must have a period of 6
15:48:56 <olsner> oklopol: what does primitive word mean?
15:49:00 <oklopol> i just defined it
15:49:17 <oklopol> for everybody's convenience, w \in A^+ is primitive if there is no u \in A^+ and n > 1 such that w = u^n
15:49:33 <oerjan> oklopol: erm why not 4
15:49:36 <oklopol> this is what combinatorics of words people think of as the "primes"
15:49:42 <oklopol> oh
15:49:44 <oklopol> you got me
15:49:51 <oklopol> also
15:50:11 <oklopol> probably that notation should be biggest to smallest and not a random order like the one that's used in english
15:50:36 <oerjan> also the obvious one next year is of course 111111111111
15:50:52 <oklopol> yeah and
15:51:02 <oklopol> 101011101011 is tomorrow :D
15:51:14 <oklopol> i didn't remember days and months change during a year
15:51:39 <oerjan> oklopol is funny
15:53:14 <oerjan> well from 2024 on there will be fewer non-primitive seconds
15:53:15 <oklopol> i think there should be a trivial reason for why 101010101010 is the only one today
15:53:37 <oklopol> i mean in general
15:54:13 <oerjan> well the period must divide either 4 or 6
15:54:23 <oerjan> and both give the same continuation of 101010
15:54:42 <oklopol> is it true that if w = uv, |u| = |v|, then if w is not primitive, u = v
15:54:49 <oklopol> erm
15:54:56 <oklopol> ofc not...
15:55:33 <oklopol> like for instance 101010
15:56:03 <oklopol> but anyway just one choice for v
15:56:16 <oerjan> nope
15:56:28 <oerjan> 101110 can be continued in two ways
15:56:38 <oklopol> cool
15:56:43 <oklopol> indeed it can
15:57:03 <oerjan> one with period 4, one with period 6
15:57:03 <oklopol> smallest example i think
15:57:10 <oklopol> wait
15:57:15 <oklopol> 121
15:57:20 <oklopol> *010
15:57:27 -!- alise has joined.
15:57:32 <oklopol> (i guess you wanted it for our case)
15:57:42 <alise> moon, boom, go!
15:57:44 <alise> oklopol: omg hi
15:57:46 <alise> you came back<33
15:57:48 <oklopol> hi
15:57:55 <oerjan> what about the moon
15:57:56 <oklopol> yes we're doing higher math with oerjan
15:57:58 <alise> have you lay-ped my game????
15:57:59 <alise> :|
15:58:03 <oklopol> you won't understand
15:58:24 <oerjan> oklopol is being particularly silly today
15:58:25 <oklopol> well umm
15:58:28 <oklopol> let's say i haven't
15:58:32 <oklopol> and see how it goes
15:58:46 <oerjan> probably due to long-time #esoteric abstinence
15:58:50 <oklopol> yeah
15:58:51 <oklopol> probably
15:59:00 <oklopol> your the only thing keeping me together
15:59:03 <oklopol> *'re
15:59:59 <oklopol> there was a conjecture that said something like f, g primitive => fg^+ contains exactly one primitive word
16:00:32 <oerjan> i note that months have smaller range than minutes and days have smaller range than seconds, so only the year itself can prevent a day from having a non-primitive second of period 6
16:00:41 <oklopol> or perhaps s/primitive/unbordered/
16:00:52 <oerjan> this happens from 2024
16:01:17 <oklopol> yeah
16:01:25 <oklopol> good note
16:01:33 <oklopol> but will there be years without any then
16:01:35 <oklopol> well
16:01:36 <oerjan> but 2024-2030 will still have period 4 ones
16:01:43 <oklopol> obviously
16:01:47 <oerjan> er -2031
16:01:56 <oklopol> if you start with 99, you can't get 99 anywhere on the last half
16:02:15 <oklopol> all of them will?
16:02:19 <oerjan> from 2032 those are excluded as well because you cannot have a big enough day
16:02:20 <oklopol> erm hrm
16:02:35 <cheater99> so i'm trying to write a python script that attempts to guess a password based on how long the system takes to reject a password
16:02:41 <cheater99> it just doesn't work :D
16:03:16 <oklopol> period 2's are easy
16:03:39 <oerjan> oklopol: yes but those are all included in 4 and 6
16:03:53 <oklopol> well i guess :D
16:03:56 <oerjan> for this argument
16:03:58 <oklopol> but 3's
16:04:10 <oerjan> are included in 6
16:04:15 <oklopol> huh?
16:04:24 <oklopol> oh erm
16:04:43 <oklopol> period, right, period
16:05:10 <oklopol> yeah okay you're right ofc
16:06:14 <oerjan> 4 and 6 are the maximal proper factors of 12, because 12 only has two prime factors and 4 = 12/3, 6 = 12/2
16:06:33 <oklopol> yeah
16:09:10 <oerjan> lessee
16:09:53 <oklopol> lessee what
16:10:08 <oerjan> 2029/02 is the first whole _month_ without a non-primitive second, i think
16:12:21 <oklopol> so we need to go past 2024, then 25xx25xx25xx works for a while for any month, and same up to 28
16:12:26 <oerjan> then no more until 2030/02, 2031/02, then 2031/04, /06, /09, /11, and all from 2032 onwards
16:12:27 <oklopol> erm
16:12:35 <oklopol> i mean that pattern works for a while
16:12:40 <oerjan> yep
16:13:13 <oklopol> then 290129012901 works, but 290229022902 doesn't, because 2902 is not a leap year
16:13:51 <oerjan> right
16:14:19 <oklopol> we could probably publish this
16:14:27 <oerjan> eek
16:14:40 <oklopol> :D
16:15:29 <oerjan> in that case, i shall follow my tradition of leaving nearly all the actual writing to my co-authors
16:15:38 <oklopol> :D
16:15:48 <oklopol> we'd have a better chance with the toi's tcness proof
16:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, you there?
16:16:08 <oklopol> i mean that's what people do in discrete math, come up with a random esolang and program stuff on it
16:16:22 <oerjan> (maybe a slight exaggeration there)
16:16:26 <oklopol> :D
16:16:42 <oklopol> very slight
16:17:21 <oerjan> i was refering to my tradition, not to discrete math. i'm sure you're _entirely_ accurate there. yeah.
16:17:21 <cheater99> yay, got it to work
16:17:26 <cheater99> (but i cheated)
16:17:32 <oklopol> ah
16:18:37 <oerjan> cheater99: no surprise there
16:19:01 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, what was the method?
16:20:31 <cheater99> perform a statistic on the time it takes the victim to reject your passwords
16:22:23 -!- impomatic has joined.
16:25:33 <impomatic> Is Brainfuck and example of Harvard architecture?
16:25:47 <alise> impomatic: Yes.
16:25:55 <alise> Ubuntu 10.10 is out. Ho hum.
16:26:22 <impomatic> Thought so, wasn't sure if there was a good reason otherwise.
16:26:28 <cheater99> alise: how was your 42 day?
16:26:32 <cheater99> did you make a wish?
16:29:17 <alise> impomatic: well there is always the distinct possibility that i am wrong :D
16:29:22 <oerjan> wait you can make a wish? it's still not over here...
16:33:02 <alise> http://www.ubuntu.com/sites/default/files/active/maverick/U2.1_photos_01_large.jpg ITT: Totally Not iPhoto
16:35:05 <alise> http://www.ubuntu.com/sites/default/files/active/maverick/U2.1_games_01_large.jpg What... what the hell are these meant to be? Strangest Worms clone ever.
16:35:35 <alise> What, they're hedgehogs.
16:35:50 <oklopol> clearly they are just worms wearing masks
16:38:07 <alise> [[03:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look. The Software Centre has started offering software to buy.]]
16:38:08 <alise> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
16:38:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, so you agree with the shark-jumpery?
16:39:38 <alise> Yes. I thought they dropped that idea when they renamed it from Store to Centre.
16:39:53 <alise> I may refuse to upgrade out of protest and to have an excuse not to bother.
16:40:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, my /home is now on a separate partition, so I'm all up to some OS changing.
16:40:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Kitten.
16:40:18 <alise> Or Quadrant or whatever I'll call the damn thing!
16:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Mitosis?
16:40:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Mitosis isn't going to evolve into a usable OS for about 10 years :P
16:40:40 <alise> And it's more like a bunch of experiements.
16:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What's Quadrant, then?
16:40:48 <cheater99> are those jpg's of things you can buy?
16:40:54 <alise> A UNIX-alike operating system.
16:41:06 <alise> Not a Linux distro, since it's quite possible that it'll be based on BSD.
16:41:13 <alise> But it will be nice!
16:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, the Software Centre is trying to be the App Store.
16:43:37 <cheater99> eh
16:43:40 <cheater99> i guess that's ok
16:43:51 <cheater99> windows is the only thing that doesn't have one now
16:43:56 <cheater99> ha ha ha, windows! ha, ha!
16:44:03 <cheater99> and osx too
16:44:04 <cheater99> ..
16:44:11 <cheater99> lol@u's
16:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Consider, though, the implications.
16:44:17 <cheater99> also: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11494729
16:44:32 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: people get paid for their work. earth-shattering.
16:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99, we are talking about "Freedom freedom happy happy" OS, remember?
16:46:09 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: there is about a quintillion commercial applications you can pay for on ?n*x|bsd
16:46:24 <cheater99> s/?/*
16:47:42 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:49:15 <fizzie> It does make the hype on the home page -- "Ubuntu applications are all free and open source – so you can share them with anyone you like, as often as you like" -- a tiny bit misleading, though. Not that I claim everything in Software Centre should be counted in "all -- Ubuntu applications", but still.
16:49:40 <cheater99> that's misleading indeed
16:51:47 <cpressey> < pikhq> The BBC has estabilished a new guideline for science reporting. < pikhq> All science news stories must now link to the paper in question.
16:51:51 <cpressey> Bravo for them
16:55:01 -!- antivigilante has joined.
16:55:32 <alise> cpressey: yes -- behind a paywall.
16:56:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Still better than being given the link to the journal's site.
16:56:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Or worse, a university's.
16:56:32 <alise> indeed
16:56:41 <alise> we need an organised system for pirating papers :)
16:56:50 <alise> a website where you post a reference of some sort, and an anonymous benefactor posts the pdf
16:57:00 <alise> and it's emailed directly to you or something, so it doesn't go through the server
16:57:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
17:00:38 <cpressey> < ais523> and will berate the lecturer at the next chance I get <-- C is always taught like this in universities though. "This function returns a void * for abstraction" is another one of my favourites
17:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, what's that in response to
17:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
17:02:17 <alise> < ais523> and will berate the lecturer at the next chance I get
17:03:38 <oklopol> the correct way to teach c is not to
17:03:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, the correct way to teach C is after something else.
17:04:02 <oklopol> although i'm also of the opinion that everyone should know c
17:04:14 <Gregor> void * is the greatest bottom ever.
17:04:17 <oklopol> so maybe i'll agree with yours
17:04:23 <Gregor> TAKE THAT IN WHICHEVER WAY YOU WISH
17:04:39 <oklopol> i get it :DD (i think)
17:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, void * isn't a bottom type, is it?
17:06:16 <Gregor> Not technically, since only pointer types convert to it.
17:06:24 <Gregor> But I'm a heap kinda guy :P
17:07:13 <alise> I said what what, in the void *
17:07:31 <cpressey> < oerjan> (actually i don't think the finns were either, not sure about the hungarians) <-- the mongols got just short of hungary, it seems
17:09:58 <Gregor> pikhq, Idonno maybe Vorpal or somebody?, whoever might care: http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg Op. 11 string quartet, done by VSTi's, borderline tolerable (and slightly better than it was last night)
17:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> op12 is the nonexistent one, yest?
17:11:25 <oklopol> HORRIBLE BULLSHIT MAN
17:11:28 <Phantom_Hoover> *yes
17:11:29 * oklopol listens
17:12:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yes
17:12:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, why?
17:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Was it not meant for mortal ears to hear?
17:13:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Because when it was 20 minutes long I went "wow, this is garbage"
17:13:44 <Phantom_Hoover> How garbage?
17:14:16 <Gregor> Not garbage enough that nothing was salvaged for op. 13, but garbage enough that a lot wasn't :P
17:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> What was garbagoid about it?
17:16:26 <Gregor> It had no consistency, so it just droned on and on.
17:16:33 <alise> Gregor: Sounds good to me!
17:16:35 <Gregor> Nothing to tie it together.
17:16:43 * alise links 9/11 to 23 in simple, easy steps
17:16:57 <Gregor> I have WIPPs of it, feel free to listen to it.
17:17:33 <alise> 9/11, backwards is 11/9 = 0.2 recurring. 2 = 1+1. So it's 0.1+11+11+11+1, and so on. 1+11 = 12. So 0.12+11+11+1, and so on. 12+11 = 23. Q.E.D.
17:19:01 <Gregor> OMG NUMEROLOGY PROVES THAT YOU'RE EVIL
17:22:35 <oklopol> Gregor: too little pazazz for my taste, this music doesn't in any way *force* me to listen to it
17:23:02 <alise> Gregor: Why are you GRegor and not Gregor
17:23:07 <alise> Is your name Gregor Regor Richards?
17:23:16 <oklopol> what
17:23:20 <Gregor> oklopol: YOU MUST LISTEN TO IT! YOU MUSSSSST! Also, the main thing the VSTi's are doing in my opinion relative to an (imagined) real performance is muddying things.
17:23:23 <alise> "http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg"
17:23:28 <Gregor> alise: Yup
17:23:40 <alise> Gregoregoregoregoregoregoregoregoregor
17:23:48 <Gregor> Actually my name is Gregor Regor Egor Gor Or R Richards
17:23:52 <oklopol> oh that's what was going on
17:24:26 <Phantom_Hoover> `choo Gregor
17:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> ^choo Gregor
17:24:31 <fungot> Gregor regor egor gor or r
17:24:44 <Phantom_Hoover> ^choo Gregor Richards
17:24:44 <fungot> Gregor Richards regor Richards egor Richards gor Richards or Richards r Richards Richards Richards ichards chards hards ards rds ds s
17:24:47 <HackEgo> No output.
17:24:51 <alise> ^scramble Gregor Richards regor Richards egor Richards gor Richards or Richards r Richards Richards Richards ichards chards hards ards rds ds s
17:24:51 <fungot> Geo ihrsrgrRcad grRcad o ihrso ihrsrRcad Rcad ihrsihrscad ad rsrsd ss d dasrhsrh dac dacRsrhi srhi dacRr dacRrgsrhi oesrhi oe dacRrgr
17:25:04 <alise> Gregor: Your new name is "Geo Ihrsrgr Rcard".
17:25:12 <alise> *Rcad
17:25:14 <Gregor> It's Dutch.
17:25:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo and Gregor are one and the same!
17:25:26 <alise> ^choo Sgeo
17:25:31 <alise> ^choo Sgeo
17:25:31 <fungot> Sgeo geo eo o
17:25:37 <alise> ^scramble Sgeo geo eo o
17:25:38 <fungot> Se e oo eogog
17:25:41 <alise> ^choo Seth Gold
17:25:42 <fungot> Seth Gold eth Gold th Gold h Gold Gold Gold old ld d
17:25:46 <alise> ^scramble Seth Gold eth Gold th Gold h Gold Gold Gold old ld d
17:25:46 <fungot> St odehGl hGl od odGl l dd ldodo lG lGhdo tdo t lGhe
17:25:53 <alise> Sgeo is now St odeh'Gl.
17:25:53 <Gregor> ^chew Sgeo
17:25:57 <Vorpal> <Gregor> pikhq, Idonno maybe Vorpal or somebody?, whoever might care: http://codu.org/tmp/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-VSTi-2010-10-10.ogg Op. 11 string quartet, done by VSTi's, borderline tolerable (and slightly better than it was last night) <-- will listen in a bit, atm the listening conditions are rather bad due to loud powertools close to here
17:26:04 <Gregor> ^choo Satan MacGee
17:26:04 <fungot> Satan MacGee atan MacGee tan MacGee an MacGee n MacGee MacGee MacGee acGee cGee Gee ee e
17:26:07 <alise> ^cho Phantom Hoover
17:26:07 <fungot> Phantom Hooverhantom Hooverantom Hooverntom Hoovertom Hooverom Hooverm Hoover HooverHooverooveroververerr
17:26:12 <alise> ^scramble Phantom Hooverhantom Hooverantom Hooverntom Hoovertom Hooverom Hooverm Hoover HooverHooverooveroververerr
17:26:12 <fungot> PatmHoehno ovrno ovrtmHoetmHoeo ovr ovrHoeHoeovrvreerrrveoeorvorvo eoHmeoHmrvo orvo oneoHmtaeoHmtarvo onh
17:26:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: is now Patm Hoehno.
17:26:24 <alise> s/://
17:26:32 <olsner> Hoeovrvreerrrveoeorvorvo :D
17:26:46 <Gregor> ^scramble Satan MacGee atan MacGee tan MacGee an MacGee n MacGee MacGee MacGee acGee cGee Gee ee e
17:26:46 <fungot> StnMce tnMce a aGea aGenMce Mce aGeaGece e ee eeGeG ec ecMeGa eGa ecMn ecMnteGa aaeGa aa
17:26:54 <Gregor> olsner: It's Cherokee.
17:26:55 <olsner> now that could be an esolang
17:27:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ^choo Elliott Hird
17:27:14 <fungot> Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird Hird Hird ird rd d
17:27:15 <Vorpal> ^show choo
17:27:15 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:27:20 <Vorpal> ^show cho
17:27:20 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:27:22 <Vorpal> hm
17:27:26 <alise> ^choo Ørjan Johannsen
17:27:26 <fungot> Ørjan Johannsen rjan Johannsen rjan Johannsen jan Johannsen an Johannsen n Johannsen Johannsen Johannsen ohannsen hannsen annsen nnsen nsen sen en n
17:27:29 <alise> oerjan: (is that right?)
17:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird Hird Hird ird rd d
17:27:35 <fungot> ElotHr lotHr it idit idotHr tHr id idHr r dd rdidi rH rHtdi tdi t rHto rHtoldi tildi til
17:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you are now ElotHr.
17:27:46 <Vorpal> alise, I think it fails at utf-8, only to be expected
17:27:46 <alise> Johansen
17:27:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: use ^cho
17:27:54 <alise> to get something longer for me
17:27:59 <alise> ^cho Xrjan Johansen
17:27:59 <fungot> Xrjan Johansenrjan Johansenjan Johansenan Johansenn Johansen JohansenJohansenohansenhansenansennsensenenn
17:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> ^choo Arvid Norlander
17:27:59 <fungot> Arvid Norlander rvid Norlander vid Norlander id Norlander d Norlander Norlander Norlander orlander rlander lander ander nder der er r
17:28:04 <alise> ^scramble Xrjan Johansenrjan Johansenjan Johansenan Johansenn Johansen JohansenJohansenohansenhansenansennsensenenn
17:28:04 <fungot> XjnJhnera oasna oasnnJhnenJhne oasnoasnhnehneasnsneennnsenennsansaoenhJenhJnsao nsao aenhJnjenhJnjnsao ar
17:28:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Arvid Norlander rvid Norlander vid Norlander id Norlander d Norlander Norlander Norlander orlander rlander lander ander nder der er r
17:28:13 <fungot> AvdNradrri olne i olne dNradrdNradr olne olne radrradrlne ne drdre rr e enrdarda enl enlordarNrdarN enlo enlo irdarNdvrdarNdv enlo ir
17:28:13 <alise> oerjan is now Øjn Jhnera Oasna
17:28:21 <alise> Avd Nradrri
17:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ^cho Elliott Hird
17:28:34 <Vorpal> alise, I can't pronounce that :P
17:28:34 <fungot> Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:28:34 <alise> ^choo Chris Pressey
17:28:35 <fungot> Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:28:39 <alise> ^scramble Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:28:40 <fungot> CrsPesyhi rse i rse sPesysPesy rse rse esyesyse e yy eysys es esrysePyseP esr esr iysePsrysePsr esr ih
17:28:48 <alise> Crs Pesyhi Rsei
17:28:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:28:50 <fungot> ElotHrlit idit idotHrotHrt id idHrHridddrrdidi rHtrHtdi tdi tirHtolrHtoldi til
17:28:51 <oklopol> do me!
17:28:51 <oklopol> do me!
17:28:52 <Vorpal> ^cho Elliott Hird
17:28:52 <fungot> Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:28:52 <oklopol> do me!
17:29:03 <Vorpal> ^scramble Elliott Hirdlliott Hirdliott Hirdiott Hirdott Hirdtt Hirdt Hird HirdHirdirdrdd
17:29:04 <fungot> ElotHrlit idit idotHrotHrt id idHrHridddrrdidi rHtrHtdi tdi tirHtolrHtoldi til
17:29:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you know what, you're just Hirdiott.
17:29:12 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:29:14 <Vorpal> ^choo Elliott Hird
17:29:14 <fungot> Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird Hird Hird ird rd d
17:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ^show scramble
17:29:20 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
17:29:24 <Vorpal> ^scramble Elliott Hird lliott Hird liott Hird iott Hird ott Hird tt Hird t Hird Hird Hird ird rd d
17:29:24 <fungot> ElotHr lotHr it idit idotHr tHr id idHr r dd rdidi rH rHtdi tdi t rHto rHtoldi tildi til
17:29:31 <oklopol> scramble scramble and run!
17:29:36 <oklopol> that'll be so cool xdxxxD
17:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, "oklopol" is too short.
17:29:59 <olsner> ^scramble >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
17:29:59 <fungot> >,>][][>][><[<]2.2]><>.><<,[>
17:30:16 <Vorpal> heh
17:30:20 <alise> oklopol: is omnivorol the right spelling
17:30:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
17:30:22 <fungot> acegikmoqsuwyzxvtrpnljhfdb
17:30:24 <Vorpal> olsner, wouldn't run alas
17:30:25 <alise> or omniovorol?
17:30:34 <oklopol> ominovorol
17:30:34 <alise> ^choo oklopol omniovorol
17:30:34 <fungot> oklopol omniovorol klopol omniovorol lopol omniovorol opol omniovorol pol omniovorol ol omniovorol l omniovorol omniovorol omniovorol mniovorol niovorol iovorol ovorol vorol orol rol ol l
17:30:37 <Vorpal> ^scramble >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
17:30:37 <fungot> >[,<<>[><<>->]][][].[][]>,
17:30:40 <alise> ^choo oklopol ominovorol
17:30:40 <fungot> oklopol ominovorol klopol ominovorol lopol ominovorol opol ominovorol pol ominovorol ol ominovorol l ominovorol ominovorol ominovorol minovorol inovorol novorol ovorol vorol orol rol ol l
17:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it's just reverse and interleave.
17:30:45 <alise> ^scramble oklopol ominovorol klopol ominovorol lopol ominovorol opol ominovorol pol ominovorol ol ominovorol l ominovorol ominovorol ominovorol minovorol inovorol novorol ovorol vorol orol rol ol l
17:30:45 <Vorpal> hm
17:30:45 <fungot> olploiooo lploiooo oo mnvrloo mnvrlploiooo loiooo mnvrl mnvrloiooo iooo nvrlnvrlooo oo rlrlo ll o oolrvlrv ooo oooilrvnmlrvnm oooio oooiollrvnm olrvnm o oooiolp oooiolpllrvnm ooklrvnm ook
17:30:49 <alise> lol :D
17:30:50 <Vorpal> that one is balanced
17:30:51 <alise> ^cho oklopol ominovorol
17:30:51 <fungot> oklopol ominovorolklopol ominovorollopol ominovorolopol ominovorolpol ominovorolol ominovoroll ominovorol ominovorolominovorolminovorolinovorolnovorolovorolvorolorolrololl
17:30:55 <alise> ^scramble oklopol ominovorolklopol ominovorollopol ominovorolopol ominovorolpol ominovorolol ominovoroll ominovorol ominovorolominovorolminovorolinovorolnovorolovorolvorolorolrololl
17:30:55 <fungot> olploioookoo mnvrloo mnvrlploioooploioooo mnvrl mnvrloiooooiooomnvrlnvrloooooovrlrloolllroooolrvlrvnoooioooilrvnmlrvnm oooioloooiollrvnm olrvnm oooooiolploooiolpllrvnm ook
17:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ^choo Chris Pressey
17:31:01 <fungot> Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:31:02 <Vorpal> ^bf >[,<<>[><<>->]][][].[][]>,
17:31:08 <Vorpal> hm
17:31:09 <Vorpal> wait
17:31:09 <alise> oklopol: you're now Olploioookoo Mnvrloo Mnvrlploioooploioooo
17:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> ^scramble Chris Pressey hris Pressey ris Pressey is Pressey s Pressey Pressey Pressey ressey essey ssey sey ey y
17:31:11 <fungot> CrsPesyhi rse i rse sPesysPesy rse rse esyesyse e yy eysys es esrysePyseP esr esr iysePsrysePsr esr ih
17:31:11 <Vorpal> just boring
17:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, you are CrsPesyhi.
17:31:31 <Vorpal> ^bf >+[,<<>[><<>->]][][].[][]>,
17:31:39 <oklopol> i like olploioookoo
17:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But I like Mnvrloo.
17:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover> But which is better?
17:32:03 <Phantom_Hoover> There's only one way to find out!
17:32:06 <Mathnerd314> today (101010) is binary for 42... I still can't think of anything special to do.
17:33:11 <alise> Mathnerd314: maybe stop using two-year digit systems, and if you won't do that, stop concatenating them together for no reason, and if you won't do that, stop interpreting them as binary for no reason?
17:33:16 <alise> it is seriously the stupidest day ever
17:33:33 -!- calamari has joined.
17:33:41 <Vorpal> alise, stop being mean to everyone.
17:33:59 <alise> i never once insulted Mathnerd314. shut up.
17:34:07 <Vorpal> alise, you just did?
17:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> No, he insulted 42 day.
17:34:23 <Vorpal> or do you mean "never before"
17:34:27 <oklopol> he was being nice to Mathnerd314
17:34:41 <Vorpal> but yeah, we should use 6 digit years
17:34:52 <oklopol> "oh Mathnerd314, don't worry, you've been wasting time that was in no way special"
17:34:54 <Mathnerd314> alise: I gather you don't like π-day either?
17:35:26 <alise> Mathnerd314: well. :)
17:35:34 <alise> at least it doesn't involve concatenating and then interpreting as binary
17:35:38 * Phantom_Hoover becomes a holy man.
17:35:45 <oklopol> Mathnerd314: there was discussion about the sublattice of non-primitive seconds (of the timeline)
17:35:48 <Vorpal> ^scramble 101010
17:35:48 <fungot> 111000
17:35:51 <Vorpal> hm
17:35:53 <oklopol> if you like non-primitive seconds
17:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, TOTALLY HOLIER THAN THOU
17:36:10 <Vorpal> 56
17:36:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what?
17:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I am a holy man now, BITCH.
17:36:44 <Phantom_Hoover> That makes me holier than thou.
17:37:10 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: how did you become a holy man?
17:37:48 <oklopol> wow
17:37:58 <oklopol> i just completely characterized the sublattice!
17:38:02 <oklopol> it's a chain! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
17:38:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathnerd314, I... err... didn't eat any... erm... unholy food... for a few days.
17:38:47 <olsner> 2010-10-10 = 1990, welcome to the nineties!
17:38:58 <Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: pork probably counts as unholy?
17:39:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Mathnerd314, not when I poke a hole in it.
17:39:39 * Mathnerd314 smacks his face
17:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan would swat me, but I stole his swatter a while ago.
17:40:56 <cpressey> < Mathnerd314> Phantom_Hoover: how did you become a holy man?
17:41:00 <cpressey> maybe he finally got the hat
17:41:18 * Phantom_Hoover wonders where his hat actually is.
17:41:27 -!- antivigilante has joined.
17:42:19 <cpressey> calamari: happy arbitrarily-numbered day!
17:42:25 -!- impomatic has left (?).
17:42:32 <calamari> hi cpressey
17:42:47 <calamari> thanks
17:43:11 <alise> hi calamari
17:43:54 <calamari> I suppose I should party when it is 10:10 am, 10 seconds?
17:45:31 <Gregor> ALWAYS
17:45:59 <cpressey> I wonder if they did this in the year 1010
17:46:03 <cpressey> except without #esoteric
17:46:07 <cpressey> or electricity
17:46:24 <alise> calamari: no, at 1:10am, 1000/99 seconds
17:46:24 <cpressey> or... non-public clocks
17:46:27 <alise> (10.1010101010...)
17:46:48 <calamari> alise: too late
17:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm saving my party for a ninth of a second after 11:11:11 11/11/11.
17:49:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that's Remembrance Day, so partying may be looked down upon.
17:49:46 <alise> :D
17:49:54 <alise> hold a rave in the silence
18:00:13 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
18:00:50 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:01:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how long is it until Padmé appears in RoTS?
18:03:56 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Because that will be the return of Jim, and I am waiting for that.
18:05:32 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Approximately 25 minutes in.
18:05:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I.e. pretty soon after they've managed to land that thing.
18:05:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, did you... did you just watch RoTS to work out that time?
18:06:38 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: If you call "skipping ahead in ten-second increments really fast" watching.
18:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I love this place...
18:07:17 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, go check the zeroes of the zeta function and see if any of them are non-trivial and with a real part not equal to 1/2.
18:07:50 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover for thinking he has the swatter -----###
18:08:11 * Phantom_Hoover swatpans oerjan for getting a new swatter --==\#/
18:11:40 <cpressey> Combinator syntax question: Conventionally, SKSK = (((SK)S)K)?
18:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
18:11:55 <cpressey> Thanks.
18:13:35 <oerjan> also that's just K >:)
18:14:24 * cpressey swats oerjan with a left ideal <<INSERT VISUAL OF LEFT IDEAL HERE>>
18:15:06 * oerjan kicks cpressey through an ultrafilter
18:16:33 * Phantom_Hoover swats cpressey ----### and pans oerjan ===\_/
18:17:14 * oerjan well-orders Phantom_Hoover
18:17:51 * Phantom_Hoover finds oerjan's least fixed point
18:33:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:34:52 <pikhq> Why do people do things like making a torrent with a split rar?
18:35:11 <pikhq> It's not like BitTorrent will cry if the files go over 100 megs!
18:36:29 <coppro> because people are retarded and think split rars have better compressoin
18:36:38 <coppro> they also compress compressed video and the like
18:36:55 <calamari> probably because that's how they downloaded it from a newsgroup
18:40:21 <pikhq> Wait, people think SPLIT RARS have better compression. GAAAH
18:40:48 <pikhq> Isn't rar splitting just... Splitting + metadata?
18:41:00 <coppro> pikhq: remember, these are the SAME PEOPLE who think you get better compressions .RARing a video!
18:41:05 <coppro> and yes, yes it is
18:41:25 <pikhq> coppro: To be fair, if it's an AVI inside, *you do get some benefit*.
18:41:34 <pikhq> (AVI is a very high-overhead format)
18:41:58 <pikhq> Granted, said benefit is going to be like 10 megs, but still.
18:53:40 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]).
18:56:45 <cpressey> oerjan: SIIKK is also K, or my evaluator and/or my understanding is broken
18:57:23 <oerjan> mhm
18:58:28 <oerjan> SII(SII)
19:01:19 <cpressey> to my dismay, i gave up on parsing the non-fully-parenthesized syntax, and i'm certain my evaluator could be simpler
19:02:12 <alise> hey, hedgewars is haskell!
19:02:19 <alise> <socket: 94>: Data.ByteString.hGetLine: end of file
19:02:26 <alise> is the quit message for some
19:03:11 <alise> maybe not
19:03:16 <alise> "FreePascal >= 2.2.4"
19:04:03 <alise> hmm it requires haskell though
19:04:11 <alise> maybe just for the server
19:05:50 <alise> pikhq: Why is it so hard to find the ORIGINAL ISO for ag ame?
19:05:51 <alise> *a game?
19:05:58 <pikhq> alise: Because FUCK YOU
19:06:26 <alise> No! I want a RAR of the installed game! I want a 500 megabyte multi-language version of the iso, not just the English version!
19:06:27 <pikhq> "Laik, everyone wants their disc modified, rait?"
19:06:38 <alise> I want a pre-no-CD'd version!
19:07:30 <coppro> alise: with a .reg?
19:07:37 <alise> coppro: .reg + copy files i think
19:07:40 <alise> coppro: also, i'm being sarcastic
19:07:52 <alise> pikhq: The worst thing is, I've bought this game! Twice!
19:07:55 <alise> I just don't have the CD!
19:07:57 <pikhq> alise: Argh.
19:07:58 <coppro> you're never sarcastic
19:08:00 <alise> Give me the fucking CD!
19:08:10 <coppro> what game?
19:08:14 <alise> Worms Armageddon
19:08:25 <coppro> oh
19:08:27 <coppro> yeah, concurred
19:08:30 <coppro> if you find one, tell me
19:08:47 <alise> coppro: i could download my own ISO that i put up, but it's unseeded and the Sold-Out rerelease :)
19:08:49 <oerjan> ((SI)I)((SI)I)
19:08:55 <coppro> lol
19:09:05 <coppro> if you get a copy, tell me
19:09:16 <alise> sure thing
19:09:26 <alise> coppro: btw, to get it working in wine you have to replace a dll
19:09:41 <alise> http://worms2d.info/Main_Page is always a veritable fountain of knowledge
19:10:08 <coppro> I heard
19:10:20 <coppro> but I need a copy first
19:10:39 <alise> yeah i'll find something
19:10:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what.
19:11:20 <alise> pikhq: how does one give a specific root to wine?
19:11:24 <alise> to have per-app installs
19:11:27 <coppro> specific root?
19:11:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: combinator calculus
19:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, set WINE_PREFIX to something else.
19:11:49 <alise> coppro: instead of ~/.wine
19:11:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ok, thanks
19:11:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I think it should be CoW.
19:12:06 <pikhq> alise: WINEPREFIX=dir
19:12:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps WineFS could be created.
19:12:23 <alise> pikhq: oh yeah, you know that cheat thing deadcode wrote that i told you about?
19:12:26 <alise> and how there was an anti-cheat one?
19:12:27 <cpressey> oerjan: are you trying to send us into an infinite loop?
19:12:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Even symlinking all of the important DLLs.
19:12:35 * oerjan whistles innocently
19:12:41 <alise> pikhq: that anti-cheat one *single-handedly* added win2k/xp support to the game
19:12:43 <alise> without the source code
19:12:45 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, can it do Lazy K IO?
19:13:18 <oerjan> AND IT WOULD HAVE WORKED TOO IF NOT FOR THAT MEDDLING PHANTOM_HOOVER
19:13:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: What? No, I only wrote it in the past hour. It barely just reduces SKI expressions
19:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, doing Lazy K IO isn't much more than that.
19:13:50 <pikhq> alise: Beautiful.
19:14:25 <alise> pikhq: and a testament to how good is engineering is -- if even one player in a net game uses an older, incompatible version of the game, all the newer versions will *emulate that version*
19:14:30 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: FEATURE REQUEST DECLINED
19:14:31 <alise> this goes right down to 3.0, the last official patch
19:14:38 <alise> *good the
19:15:04 <pikhq> alise: Bravo.
19:15:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Deadcode...?
19:15:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He's a quantum-computer-based cyborg.
19:15:48 <alise> His only thoughts are to program.
19:15:54 <alise> He has no emotions.
19:16:03 <alise> pikhq: http://torrentz.com/634f0cf224c90dbb84e8bb48f337cbe1b62805d7
19:16:07 <alise> pikhq: i think this is a multi-language version but EH
19:16:13 <alise> at least it's something that actually appeared on a cd at some point
19:16:17 <alise> coppro: ^
19:16:21 <alise> coppro: http://torrentz.com/634f0cf224c90dbb84e8bb48f337cbe1b62805d7
19:16:31 <alise> it'll need a no-cd crack for sanity but That Can Be Arranged afterwards
19:16:36 <alise> oh and the directdraw
19:16:38 <alise> but again, that can come after
19:17:07 <alise> coppro: as always, remember to insert the torrentz tracker list :p
19:17:17 <alise> mmf download is slow
19:17:18 * alise looks for a faster one
19:17:46 <alise> aha
19:17:49 <alise> coppro: pikhq: http://torrentz.com/4c6c424826f8e8dc277fefe4e1de9c92f5337855
19:17:51 <alise> just tick the iso
19:17:52 <alise> and nothing else
19:18:09 <pikhq> MOAR TORRENT
19:18:15 <alise> pikhq: wat
19:18:34 <alise> 74 peers fuck yeah
19:18:54 <alise> things i don't understand
19:18:54 <alise> how come
19:18:56 <alise> after removing wine
19:18:57 <alise> and reinstalling it
19:19:01 <alise> the wine menu doesn't come back up?
19:19:18 <alise> aha, because it's still in the cache
19:19:19 <alise> hmm
19:19:27 <alise> oh wait no
19:19:53 <alise> wow
19:19:56 <alise> 995 KiB/s off a torrent
19:19:59 <alise> niiice
19:23:00 <alise> pikhq: by the way, quadrant/kitten will eat your firstborn as part of the installation process. and since said you'd try it, well...
19:23:03 <alise> >:D
19:24:33 <pikhq> alise: I'll have my cat install it for me.
19:24:45 <alise> pikhq: Is your cat fertile?
19:24:50 <pikhq> Nope!
19:25:03 <alise> pikhq: You see, that just means that it eats its owner's firstborn.
19:25:13 <alise> It's in the EULA!
19:25:47 <pikhq> Guess I'll just have to never have a child, then.
19:26:11 <pikhq> I'm currently doing that at a stunning pace!
19:26:15 <alise> pikhq: You don't want to know what happens if you do that.
19:26:19 <alise> You DON'T want to know.
19:26:26 <pikhq> What, parent's firstborn?
19:26:35 <alise> Nope.
19:26:38 <alise> It eats YOU.
19:26:47 <pikhq> I am my parent's firstborn, so...
19:26:58 <pikhq> I guess I'll have to hit the spermbank.
19:27:18 <alise> With your fists!
19:28:45 <alise> coppro: I'll give you an online game after I get WA installed.
19:28:52 <alise> Also, I'll tell you how to set it up before that :P
19:30:05 <cpressey> Idea: implement a Mandelbrot generator in Logo. Have it draw the outline of the set using only the turtle drawing functions.
19:30:17 <alise> Ouch.
19:31:03 <pikhq> xhtml-served-as-html ensaddens me.
19:32:37 <alise> xhtml ensaddens me.
19:32:44 <alise> pikhq: You should totally download that WA torrent :|
19:32:52 <alise> We could all fail hilariously at the simplest of games!
19:32:53 <pikhq> alise: I'm downloading it.
19:33:04 <pikhq> Nothing about it parses right. Nothing. The web browser actually has to use its tag-soup parser to render anything.
19:33:07 <alise> Or start a CLAN (note: clans in WA are the most juvenile thing ever)
19:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> XHTML is HTML made XML-compliant, yes?
19:33:25 <alise> it used to be so bad that not having a clan in your nick made people call you a noob
19:33:31 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, XHTML is HTML using XML syntax instead of SGML syntax.
19:33:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, there's a difference/
19:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> *?
19:33:46 <alise> if you see something like xABxSomeIdiotxABx, that's a clan idiot. AB stands for Abrasive Bastards or similar!
19:33:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: <br> vs <br/>
19:34:00 <alise> and yes
19:34:02 <alise> big difference
19:34:21 <pikhq> <br/> in SGML parses as a br tag followed by a misplaced >.
19:34:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: SGML and XML have a common subset.
19:34:58 <pikhq> HTML made XML-compliant would merely use this common subset.
19:35:07 * alise copies WA.iso to ~ to begin
19:35:23 <alise> pikhq: yeah, <br></br>
19:35:29 <alise> of course that's backwards-incompatible with old html versions
19:35:32 <pikhq> alise: Right.
19:35:43 <pikhq> I should note at this point that almost no HTML parsers actually parse things as SGML.
19:36:00 <pikhq> Meaning that there's *tons* of valid HTML that a web browser can't render.
19:36:22 * alise writes a WA-in-Wine install guide as he goes along
19:36:31 <pikhq> alise: It could also be <br></>
19:36:39 <alise> pikhq: yeah but nothing parses that :D
19:36:41 <pikhq> ... Erm, no, not for XML.
19:36:51 <pikhq> And if you just care about SGML, then <br/
19:37:01 <pikhq> alise: ... Links and lynx do!
19:37:07 <pikhq> alise: And the W3C validator!
19:37:57 <alise> WINE_PREFIX right?
19:37:58 <alise> for a wine root
19:37:59 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, did you do that thing with the multiple WINEPREFIXEs?
19:38:02 <pikhq> alise: WINEPREFIX
19:38:03 <alise> okay
19:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> *PREFIXes
19:38:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah. Currently, I've got one for ie6 and one for ie7.
19:38:23 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'll be adding more.
19:38:36 <alise> pikhq: You'll be adding one for WORMS ARMAGEDDON YAY
19:38:54 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, does each copy use disk space for all the C: stuff?
19:38:56 <pikhq> alise: Also Steam. (which will have more than one app in it but OH WELL)
19:39:14 <alise> pikhq: ONE STEAM PER APP
19:39:35 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Only for a handful of things.
19:39:45 <alise> Oh fuck, let's hope audio works.
19:39:52 <alise> Nope. AAAAAAAARGH
19:40:30 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Um, you get a bunch of small .exe's and empty DLL files.
19:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahhh.
19:41:45 <pikhq> 41M for a brand-new, empty wine prefix. Wait, seriously?
19:42:19 <pikhq> Oh, I see. It installs a full copy of Gecko for a WINE prefix.
19:42:46 <pikhq> (the mshtml implementation)
19:43:08 <alise> LOL THE INSTALLER LAUNCHER IS IN RUSSIAN.
19:43:16 <Phantom_Hoover> 525 MB in less than 10 minutes.
19:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
19:43:25 <alise> I hope the setup isn't.
19:43:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hold off until I get this guide done.
19:43:31 <alise> It's a bit tricky.
19:44:39 <alise> Okay, the data seems to be in English.
19:44:41 <alise> So don't worry.
19:44:46 <alise> Let's see.
19:47:00 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the chance statistically of his ISP murdering his family is.
19:47:19 <alise> pikhq: Phantom_Hoover: BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
19:47:23 <alise> It's in Russian, I think.
19:47:24 <pikhq> Quite low, to be realistic.
19:47:31 <alise> I will find another torrent.
19:47:37 <alise> In the meantime, save your disk space and delete it.
19:47:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, goddamn you.
19:47:57 <alise> You might be able to patch a file to get it to work but *I'll just find a stock CD*
19:48:17 <alise> wait
19:48:18 <alise> wait
19:48:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq: don't
19:48:22 <alise> "Russian is only installation. After patching all will be in english."
19:50:01 <pikhq> I JUST HIT DELETE FILES AND REMOVE GRR
19:50:23 <alise> pikhq: ;_;
19:50:25 <alise> pikhq: I apologise.
19:50:59 <alise> pikhq: OH YEAH, make sure you have wine 1.3.3.
19:51:04 <alise> I don't. Fuck!
19:51:08 * alise downloads bianry package
19:51:13 <alise> *binary
19:52:18 * pikhq hath 1.2
19:52:25 <alise> pikhq: Get 1.3.3.
19:52:27 <alise> Or online play doesn't work.
19:53:45 <Gregor> WHO'S READY FOR AN 8-BIT ORGASM?
19:55:29 <Gregor> NO ONE!
19:55:32 <Gregor> Got it :P
19:55:36 <alise> Almost done the guide.
19:57:41 * pikhq updates
19:59:22 <alise> pikhq: I think this CD may be unusable for the purpose/
19:59:25 <alise> *purpose.
19:59:28 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:00:00 <alise> OH COOL
20:00:05 -!- wareya has joined.
20:00:07 <pikhq> Oh, hey, awesome. I'm now accessing the Gentoo mirrors via IPv6.
20:01:12 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/zee5-2010-10-10-8bit.ogg
20:01:21 <alise> grrrrrrrr
20:03:00 <alise> pikhq: Okay. Stop.
20:03:13 <alise> Auuuuuuuuuuum.
20:03:18 <alise> I'm starting from scratch.
20:06:16 <alise> pikhq: There is a wrapper for a patched version ofw ine that apparently makes this work just fine.
20:06:19 <alise> I am trying to get it working now.
20:07:42 <alise> pikhq: The irritating thing is that with the not-yet-released update, this would work all out of the box.
20:08:23 <pikhq> alise: That is quite irritating indeed.
20:09:10 <alise> pikhq: Right then: Kitten/Quadrant will include a package that, when supplied with an iso file, will set up WA properly. :P
20:11:34 <alise> pikhq: I'm figuring it out now.
20:11:48 <alise> pikhq: What I may do is write a script that puts all this crap in one self-contained directory...
20:11:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, make it support WINE in a nice fashion.
20:12:56 <alise> My distro?
20:12:59 <alise> Define nice fashion.
20:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, what's your opinion on the suckiness of extant kernals?
20:13:07 <Phantom_Hoover> *kernels kernels kernels
20:13:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
20:14:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Linux sucks, BSD less so.
20:15:02 -!- augur has joined.
20:15:18 <alise> "taken directly from a original bought disc.
20:15:19 <alise> ISO, update & no-cd crack included.
20:15:19 <alise> Check readme for information."
20:15:20 <alise> I FUCKING APPROVE
20:15:37 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: A kernel is only a kernal if it's on the C64
20:16:57 <pikhq> alise: Hmm. Y'know a major upside to per-app WINE prefixes? If it's something I only use on occasion, *I can just tar up the prefix*.
20:17:04 <alise> pikhq: :D
20:17:06 <pikhq> Which is of course awesome.
20:17:32 <Gregor> Nobody listened to my awesome 8-bit adventure X-P
20:17:58 <pikhq> WINE: if the program works right, then it works *better*. :)
20:18:46 <alise> Gregor: relink
20:18:53 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/zee5-2010-10-10-8bit.ogg
20:19:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq: I recommend you download http://isohunt.com/download/181634533/worms+armageddon.torrent, sans the update file which you don't need, but with the exe.
20:19:19 * Phantom_Hoover is beyond caring
20:19:22 <alise> Gregor: i approve
20:19:29 <alise> Gregor: was it done on actual 8-bit hardware or emulation
20:19:31 <alise> or just FAKE
20:19:34 <Gregor> FAKE
20:19:35 <Gregor> TOTALLY FAKE
20:19:38 <alise> bastard
20:19:39 <Gregor> ALL FAKE ... and evil.
20:19:41 <Gregor> VSTi's
20:20:27 <pikhq> alise: Does it have a peer list from torrentz?
20:20:36 <pikhq> Erm, tracker
20:20:54 <pikhq> If not, well, at least it actually has a working tracker.
20:21:05 <alise> pikhq: It does not, unfortunately.
20:21:13 <alise> But it IS the original iso from the original fucking disc and that's what matters.
20:21:19 <pikhq> alise: So, this'll be slow. But oh well.
20:21:28 <alise> I'm getting 150 KiB/s.
20:21:30 <alise> So it's not that bad.
20:21:34 <alise> 170 KiB/s, even, at some points.
20:21:36 <pikhq> I'm getting 0 KiB/s.
20:21:44 <alise> pikhq: what trackers does it list?
20:21:47 <alise> podtropolis, torrentbay and prq?
20:21:51 <alise> those are the ones i have
20:21:52 <pikhq> Yup.
20:22:01 <pikhq> Peer list request timed out on the first two.
20:22:03 <alise> pikhq: i might be hogging everyone :) give it a minute
20:22:04 <alise> pikhq: ah
20:22:11 <alise> pikhq: pause and restart
20:22:13 <alise> the first one has peers
20:22:16 <alise> the second one times out for me too
20:22:29 <pikhq> But I just got some peers from the DHT; is all good.
20:22:58 <pikhq> Including you.
20:23:06 <alise> :-D
20:23:10 <alise> Thanks for making me use my upload, bastard!
20:23:18 <alise> pikhq: How do you tell which ones are from the DHT?
20:23:38 <pikhq> In the list of peers, "H".
20:23:45 <pikhq> (for the status)
20:23:51 <alise> I'm downloading from you now, ha.
20:24:02 <alise> Now my download is slow. So you suffer!
20:24:04 <pikhq> X, BTW, is peer exchange.
20:24:12 <alise> And my upload is going between 4 KiB/s and 110 KiB/s.
20:24:14 <alise> Wildly.
20:24:19 <alise> pikhq: yeah, if you hover over it gives a legend
20:24:21 <alise> which is nice
20:24:26 <pikhq> Yuh.
20:24:52 <oklopol> Gregor: good stuff
20:24:53 <alise> pikhq: Can you block me? You're making my download shit :P
20:25:05 <alise> It's fluctuating like hell
20:25:15 <Gregor> alise: Your mom is fluctuating like hell.
20:25:19 <pikhq> No, it won't let you do that.
20:25:26 <alise> BAH
20:25:57 <alise> pikhq: What I'll do sometime is fish out my WA CD, wherever it is -- the original version -- and make an .iso of it.
20:26:03 <alise> And then give it to anyone who asks that I like.
20:26:10 <alise> Plus a script that sets it up properly, hopefully.
20:26:23 <alise> That will be a lot less painful than this.
20:26:41 <pikhq> What's painful is the trackers NOT WORKING
20:26:56 <alise> FIRST AND LAST ONES DO HAHAHAHA
20:27:01 <alise> Pause it and start it again
20:27:02 <alise> Should help
20:27:06 <pikhq> I only get the last one.
20:27:06 <pikhq> And I did that.
20:27:10 <alise> Bah.
20:27:14 <pikhq> The tracker just won't respond.
20:27:19 <alise> That means you leech of me more than is strictly necessary! Fucker :P
20:27:29 <pikhq> How many peers are you connected to?
20:27:33 <alise> 4
20:27:36 <alise> and i'm downloading from them all
20:27:41 <pikhq> I'm connected to 6...
20:27:44 <alise> first tracker gives 7 peers
20:27:47 <alise> last tracker gives 4 peers
20:28:04 <alise> (6 seeders, 1 leecher, and 3 seeders, 1 leecher.)
20:29:41 <alise> Gregor: Make zee5 (Gregor's techno mix)
20:29:53 <Gregor> Let's not!
20:29:59 <alise> LET'S
20:32:26 <alise> pikhq: While you're waiting, install Hedgewars from your friendly local package manager; it's so much a clone of Worms Armageddon that it borders on copyright infringement.
20:32:30 <alise> And it has networked play.
20:33:05 <alise> pikhq: In fact, I'll give you a game.
20:33:26 <alise> It sets resolution = screen res by default, so you'll either want to enable fullscreen or reduce it.
20:33:59 * pikhq is, instead, switching to per-app installs of Steam.
20:34:09 <alise> BUT THAT'S LESS FUN
20:35:39 <pikhq> NEENER
20:39:34 <pikhq> Another nice thing is that if I decide to uninstall something, rm -rf does it.
20:39:47 <pikhq> No. Residual. Bullshit.
20:39:57 <alise> fizzie: Hey, what's the guy in H2G2 who always gets rained on?
20:41:56 <fizzie> alise: Rob McKeena, the Rain God.
20:42:07 <alise> fizzie: Heh, I just found that as you said it.
20:42:09 <alise> Thanks.
20:42:16 <alise> fizzie: Have you got the whole series memorised?
20:42:25 <fizzie> No, but I've got grep. :p
20:42:53 <fizzie> (I used to have it memorized reasonably well back when we had the trivia game running, though.)
20:43:18 <fizzie> Rob's a rather minor character.
20:44:14 * pikhq mocks the sharing of files that The Orange Box does! BWAHAHAHA
20:44:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, who's that guy who got the Rory Award?
20:45:44 <fizzie> I don't think he was named.
20:47:58 <cpressey> "I'm not wearing a hat." "Nice head, then."
20:48:23 <cpressey> Or it could be "I like the head, then".
20:48:30 <cpressey> I don't have it memorized either.
20:49:24 <fizzie> "I like that hat!" he bawled. "What?" "I said, I like the hat." "I'm not wearing a hat." "Well, I like the head, then." "What?" "I said, I like the head. Interesting bone-structure." "What?"
20:53:57 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:00:08 <cpressey> Is there a name for the subset of C where a and b (in a+bi) are rationals, or even integers?
21:00:31 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, what's the name of the singer at the diner in Mostly Harmless.
21:00:37 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, a question I asked long ago.
21:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The answer was "no".
21:01:01 <fizzie> cpressey: Gaussian integers are those where a and b are integers. I don't think there's any special name for *even* integers, though.
21:01:02 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: is i a real number? NO WAIT HEAR ME OUT
21:01:45 * Phantom_Hoover raises the crazy shields and sets mathsters to "stun".
21:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, go ahead...
21:02:22 <cpressey> There's no reason to believe the decimal expansion of i (er... you know, if such a thing were... imaginable) would be nonrepeating, or even that it would have anything to the right of the decimal point.
21:02:46 <cpressey> i looks pretty much like an integer.
21:02:51 <cpressey> except, you know, imaginary,
21:02:53 <cpressey> *.
21:03:19 <cpressey> It's just that it hangs around with this crowd that are usually reals.
21:04:02 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, i is a Gaussian integer.
21:04:05 <cpressey> And participates in the defintion of a plane that is built on top of the reals.
21:04:09 <cpressey> Ooh!
21:04:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is, I suppose, what you mean.
21:04:35 <cpressey> Er... well maybe
21:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> (Logically, forall a b : Q, a+bi would be a Gaussian rational, but I've never actually heard that usage.)
21:06:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The usage is extant enough to have a Wikipedia stub, at least.
21:07:51 <cpressey> I guess this answers my original curiousity... Gaussian rationals do fit what I was thinking of.
21:08:09 -!- flippo has joined.
21:08:29 <alise> brb
21:08:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Still no progress on Sierp!
21:09:13 <cpressey> Actually it feels like you ought to be able to "complexify" (Gaussify?) any field or maybe any commutative ring or maybe any ring
21:09:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:09:22 <pikhq> Y'know, Steam sucks enough that I'm considering just downloading a no-Steam crack of these games.
21:10:47 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, logically you should be able to Gaussify N as well, which isn't a ring.
21:11:47 <cpressey> Maybe. Maybe you could Gaussify C, too.
21:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't work.
21:12:16 <cpressey> Probably just reduces to C, is what I was thinking
21:12:47 <pikhq> *Aaaaand* Steam crashes.
21:12:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep, since forall a, b \in C, a * b \in C
21:16:51 -!- Slereah has joined.
21:18:27 -!- zzo38 has set topic: This is not a real topic message. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:20:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Ceci n'est pas un sujet. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> French self-reference > English self-reference.
21:21:16 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: That is better. Thanks
21:22:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I do not know French, so I cannot respond appropriately.
21:22:44 <zzo38> OK
21:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> How was that Underlambda thing doing?
21:28:06 <zzo38> What is Underlambda?
21:28:45 <pikhq> alise: How goes the WA?
21:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> That... is what I seek to find out.
21:35:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: ZzzZZzzzZZzZzZ).
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21:37:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
21:37:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:37:21 <pikhq> As it turns out, IE7 is significantly smaller than IE6.
21:40:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:43:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, do you know the Forbidden Secrets of Chemistry?
21:43:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Like how goddamned electrons work.
21:43:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: only to some extent
21:44:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's more physics, isn't it?
21:44:05 <ais523> I have enough of an understanding to explain why electrons act the way they do in covalent/ionic bonds, to an extent sufficient to make a few basic explanations but not really get to the heart of what's oging on
21:44:09 <alise> pikhq: 261.5/262.7 mb
21:44:10 <ais523> oh, hi alise
21:44:13 <alise> nobody uploading to me
21:44:31 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, *goddamned electron shells
21:44:49 <Phantom_Hoover> The explanation that is given at first is so obviously wrong...
21:44:51 <alise> pikhq: do you have the whole thing?
21:44:57 <alise> no, just 99%
21:44:58 <alise> hmph
21:45:30 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I can give a simplified and "wrong" explanation that's nonetheless better than the explanation you're likely to have been given, and has better predictive power
21:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> The subshell one?
21:46:50 <alise> better predictive power -- useful if you're going to bet on what electron shells will do
21:47:10 <pikhq> alise: Uh, that's the whole ISO.
21:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, does 21st Century Science have anything on electron shells?
21:47:30 <pikhq> alise: It's showing the percentage of the whole torrent you have, not the percentage of what you want.
21:47:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, the answer to that is obvious.
21:47:33 <alise> pikhq: Oh, what the eff. I started downloading the update.
21:47:35 <alise> How did that happen?
21:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel stupid for askin.
21:47:38 <alise> But okay.
21:47:39 <Phantom_Hoover> *asking
21:47:42 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, and feof/ferror too, as well as the somewhat obscure system(NULL) case. (And a lot of multibyte string functions when called with a NULL s.)
21:47:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I think it... might.
21:48:02 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, thanks for that
21:48:07 <pikhq> alise: Got forced to, presumably. Saying "I want only this" only means that your client will *try* to only get that.
21:48:08 <alise> I did them at the unit; well, "did", I sat there and turned my brain off while the obvious incorrectness was dispensed into my audial system.
21:48:12 * Phantom_Hoover surprises
21:48:14 <alise> pikhq: Right.
21:48:19 <ais523> arguably, the system(NULL) case might actually come up, as it's a course about kernel programming
21:48:27 <alise> pikhq: "But I don't WANT that file!" "FUCK YOU, YOU'RE GETTING IT"
21:48:43 <ais523> and assuming that system() is given the correct implementation inside the kernel in question (IIRC Linux), it would be a quick test to see if you were a kernel module or user program
21:48:45 <pikhq> Yup.
21:48:47 <alise> pikhq: Okay, I will now attempt to write a guide that explains how to get this working.
21:48:55 <ais523> ofc, a need for that test isn't likely to come up very often...
21:49:01 <alise> ais523: heh
21:49:16 <ais523> alise: did you see my complaints about the C notes I was given to teach from, earlier?
21:49:33 <alise> ais523: yes
21:49:35 <alise> ais523: sounds awful
21:50:06 <ais523> (also, the course officially uses gcc --std=gnu99; I suppose that's vaguely plausible given that it's meant to be about kernel programming and Linux the kernel is full of GNU extensions, but still...)
21:50:33 <alise> pikhq: So you have the whole thing too?
21:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, note how whatever 21st Century Science says, it will completely ignore anything past calcium.
21:50:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: did you do it or something?
21:51:06 <alise> or are you just basing this on what i said about how crap it is?
21:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I'm basing it on the fact that elements past Ca aren't covered until final-year-ish courses in school.
21:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it involves quantum, AND WE ALL KNOW HOW IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPREHEND THAT IS
21:52:26 <alise> I love our educational system; we treat people like retards, ensuring that they will grow up to be retards.
21:53:02 <pikhq> alise: Yup.
21:53:05 <ais523> hmm, zzo38 implemented Underload in TeX? that seems kind-of appropriate next to the Redcode impl
21:53:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I have spent at least 3 years asking every chemistry teacher I have how the bloody things work, to no avail.
21:53:39 <alise> ehird@dinky:~/.local/lib/worms-armageddon$ file cd.iso
21:53:39 <alise> cd.iso: PowerISO Direct-Access-Archive
21:53:44 <alise> pikhq: discuss
21:53:48 <pikhq> alise: Install daa2iso.
21:53:49 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I have done. If you have any other questions about it you can ask
21:53:57 <alise> archive manager can't open it either
21:54:01 <alise> pikhq: WHY IS IT .ISO IF IT'S NOT ISO
21:54:02 <alise> AIOJFGDFJH
21:54:05 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it does involve quantum, but not in a particularly incomprehensible way
21:54:06 <pikhq> alise: FUCK YOU
21:54:16 <pikhq> alise: But, daa2iso will get you a proper ISO, so hey.
21:54:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, TOO DAMN INCOMPREHENSIBLE
21:54:23 <alise> Man, anyone grepping the logs for me and pikhq saying fuck will think we hate each other.
21:54:28 <ais523> zzo38: mostly I'm just impressed, and trying to figure out how it works
21:54:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: OK, let's see... electrons can be in one of many different energy levels, orbits, and spins
21:55:07 <alise> pikhq: ...
21:55:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: God I *hate* that. I mean, quantum isn't magic.
21:55:11 <alise> pikhq: I just deleted WA.iso by mistake.
21:55:12 <zzo38> ais523: It isn't particularly complicated. It is a short program, and if you understand TeX you should understand this program.
21:55:18 <ais523> although it's not /quite/ true that spins are symmetrical, it takes really contrived quantum physics to find an example where they aren't
21:55:20 <pikhq> alise: Facepalm-tastic.
21:55:23 <ais523> zzo38: I don't understand raw TeX
21:55:26 <pikhq> alise: I just got an ISO.
21:55:27 <pikhq> :)
21:55:27 <ais523> but I can try to figure it out from the program
21:55:32 <alise> pikhq: I hereby obligate you to upload it to a server that I have access to.
21:55:36 <alise> pikhq: Or -- even better.
21:55:40 <alise> pikhq: You seeding that torrent?
21:55:47 <pikhq> alise: I can go back to seeding it!
21:55:58 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I figured it out by myself a couple of days ago, with the aid of a poster.
21:56:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: so for the purposes of this, you can assume that "up" and "down" spins (the only two possibilities) are identical except for being different from each other
21:56:09 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: even better, I don't need to explain that way!
21:56:11 <zzo38> ais523: Now you can see if you can figure out, and any part you don't know, you can ask.
21:56:27 <alise> pikhq: Transmission thinks I still have the file X_X
21:56:35 <alise> Hey, is there any way to quickly recover a recently-deleted file on an ext4 system?
21:56:36 <pikhq> alise: Rescan.
21:56:38 <ais523> the code for : looks pretty surprising
21:56:39 <alise> Is it in the journal or ... something?
21:56:57 <ais523> alise: the journal only exists while the deletion is taking place
21:57:12 <alise> ais523: Mother-fucking-fuckshitting-fuck.
21:57:13 <ais523> and unfortunately, ext4 is very fast at deleting large files, that's part of the reason you'd use it
21:57:21 <alise> I want a filesystem that's really slow at deleting large files.
21:57:23 <alise> REALLY slow.
21:57:36 <ais523> (in fact, it's one of its main advantages over ext3)
21:57:38 <alise> Actually I want an rm that just moves the file to a trashcan because I can't trust myself with this shit.
21:57:42 <ais523> alise: you could grep for a magic number or something
21:57:58 <ais523> (and you can alias rm to a move-to-trash in your .profile or whatever)
21:57:58 <pikhq> alise: Write an rm-alike!
21:58:00 <alise> pikhq: Okay, seed that thing.
21:58:04 <pikhq> I'm seeding it.
21:58:05 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, I might just.
21:58:16 <ais523> hmm, what about moving to somewhere in /tmp?
21:58:17 <pikhq> And connected to you.
21:58:22 <alise> Alias rm to mv-to-bin, rename rm to really-really-rm.
21:58:28 <ais523> that way, you can undelete as long as you haven't rebooted in between
21:58:30 <pikhq> And UPLOAD MORE DAMMIT
21:58:36 <ais523> (or if you're feeling more adventurous, move to /var/cache)
21:58:43 <Phantom_Hoover> FUN FACT: the 5th-year physics curriculum in Scotland covers quantum in so little detail that they don't even mention the double-slit experiment.
21:58:44 <alise> pikhq: INSUFFICIENT SPEED BEEEEEP INSUFFICIENT SPEED BEEEEEEEEEEEEP
21:58:52 <ais523> alise: /bin seems a rather bad place for deleted files...
21:58:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Please put "mechanics" after that word. Just "quantum" is irritating.
21:59:02 <alise> ais523: The word "bin".
21:59:04 <zzo38> ais523: Do you mean the code for : in the underload.tex is surprising?
21:59:06 <alise> "Rubbish bin".
21:59:08 <ais523> zzo38: yes
21:59:17 <ais523> it doesn't obviously match what : does, like the code for ~ does
21:59:40 <pikhq> alise: Okay, it is now the only torrent I'm running.
21:59:49 <pikhq> Better?
21:59:49 <alise> pikhq: YAY
21:59:51 <ais523> also, is ^ using a temporary file?
21:59:51 <alise> pikhq: Thanks.
21:59:57 <ais523> and does that work for nested ^ commands?
21:59:59 <alise> pikhq: I promise to be less stupid as payment.
22:00:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it's a Discworld reference.
22:00:06 <Phantom_Hoover> That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
22:00:26 <zzo38> ais523: Well, it does work. The \begingroup command in TeX is basically like pushing the state of all macros and registers to the stack (it doesn't work exactly like that, but it is close).
22:00:37 <pikhq> alise: ETA = ?
22:00:38 <zzo38> And ^ is using a temporary file, and it does work for nested ^ commands.
22:00:46 <alise> pikhq: 32 minutes
22:00:50 <alise> which is better than i ever got on the torrent itself
22:01:06 <alise> pikhq: you have great upload
22:01:07 <pikhq> Hooray, using all the upload.
22:01:31 <alise> pikhq: To be fair, I am getting it from three other people, too.
22:01:42 <pikhq> alise: I was seeding 3 other torrents and fetching 2 others...
22:01:50 <ais523> zzo38: using a temporary file to implement function calls rather reminds me of using multithreading to implement addition
22:01:51 <alise> Yours is the fastest though.
22:02:11 <alise> pikhq: Pfft, you're one of these crazy people who "seeds" torrents after they're downloaded.
22:02:13 <alise> PFFT
22:02:20 <zzo38> ais523: And in case you didn't realize yet, the reason for \let\C=\catcode
22:02:22 <pikhq> alise: Private tracker.
22:02:28 <zzo38> is because the word "catcode" as "a" in it.
22:02:32 <ais523> zzo38: does an infinite loop as in (:^):^ run out of memory eventually, or does it actually run forever?
22:02:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, what is that music at the end of Free Man?
22:02:41 <ais523> zzo38: ingenious
22:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> The internet seems to be at a loss.
22:02:46 <alise> pikhq: I have a crazy ratio on Demonoid and I forget why.
22:03:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's something some guy made specifically for it
22:03:05 <alise> some internet-famous ... thing
22:03:18 <zzo38> ais523: The input stack is eventually exhausted. (MiKTeX (and probably others, too) allow changing the input stack size by a command-line parameter.)
22:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean the music that plays when it's panning around the statue of John Freeman.
22:03:31 <alise> pikhq: Hmm, only 1.46 ratio on Demonoid. Swear it was more!
22:03:31 <cpressey> I need to re-install Windows on this machine now.
22:03:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh. Dunno.
22:03:34 <cpressey> Wish me luck.
22:03:36 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:03:41 <ais523> cpressey: good luck!
22:03:47 <zzo38> There might be a better way than using input files like this, but I found this the simplest way, later I might find a better way, in which case I can fix it.
22:03:51 * ais523 feels slightly trepidated
22:04:19 <ais523> still, I can't figure out how : is meant to work
22:04:22 <ais523> what are you using as the stack?
22:04:54 <zzo38> ais523: I am using TeX's internal group stack as the stack.
22:05:10 <ais523> and what are you using as stack elements?
22:05:25 <zzo38> The \toks0 register.
22:05:40 <ais523> oh, I think I get an idea of how it's working noe
22:05:42 <ais523> *now
22:05:51 <ais523> and : works because it starts a new group, but doesn't change any of the current registers?
22:05:57 <ais523> so it just copies what's there on the stack already?
22:05:58 <zzo38> Yes.
22:06:13 <ais523> got iy
22:06:15 <ais523> *it
22:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, merit of Gaz versions of the final two instalments in the FLC series. Discuss.
22:06:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: they're not as good.
22:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I never liked the fact that Henry and John Freeman are indistinguishable.
22:07:56 <alise> That could have been funny, but *eh* they're just not as funny.
22:08:04 <alise> Because the entire amusement of the series is how downright stupid it is.
22:08:10 <alise> And they're less stupid than the regular ones.
22:08:16 <zzo38> If there was a category code for active and begin group both at the same time, I could probably do it without temporary files.
22:09:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: huh, apparently the readings featured in the djy videos aren't his own
22:09:26 <zzo38> (I have tried the example Underload programs, all of them work.)
22:09:30 <alise> they're all from elsewhere :P
22:09:36 <Phantom_Hoover> :O
22:09:37 <alise> strange because they fit so well
22:09:43 <alise> "They combine dramatic readings performed by other users and music from the album Production Music from Ren & Stimpy, creating a distinct Soundtrack Dissonance."
22:11:54 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:12:18 <cpressey> Can't risk it; recovery CD is moronic. I don't trust it to not wipe out the Linux partition.
22:12:33 <alise> cpressey: ?
22:12:47 <cpressey> alise: Why I Am Not Re-Installing Windows Here.
22:12:56 <cpressey> also, I can print what i need to at work
22:13:09 <cpressey> or maybe even talk to this printer from Ubuntu
22:13:10 <cpressey> hahahah
22:15:28 <cpressey> @tell oerjan The problem with the "non-self-similar fractal" of a triangle, square, pentagon... is that as n gets large, n-gons do tend to look... well, similar.
22:16:43 <cpressey> actually seems pretty close to the "non-repeating sequence <-> unbounded storage" thing... to have a non-self-similar fractal, you essentially need a non-repeating sequence
22:16:49 <alise> cpressey: no lambdabot
22:16:54 <alise> cpressey: ubuntu is pretty good with printers btw
22:17:32 <cpressey> and oerjan is pretty good with reading the logs himself :)
22:18:54 <cpressey> There was an error during the CUPS operation: 'client-error-document-format-not-supported'. When printing a test page.
22:19:12 <cpressey> I assume this means eww-your-printer-is-retarded.
22:20:41 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:23:23 <alise> What's that thing about atoms written in ... English without Germanic things? Or something.
22:23:25 <alise> The title.
22:25:48 <alise> pikhq: "Thanks Allan but I'm afraid I don't have that programming knowledge and talent for I'm not a programmer. [...] I am a software designer, an architect, a non-coding project manager you might say. In the old days the term was "analyst". My interest is more in designing algorithms, writing pseudo-code, interfaces and of course managing computing projects."
22:25:52 <alise> --Tcl wiki page 19
22:25:58 <alise> Desire to kill strong.
22:26:29 <pikhq> "720x400" WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT YOU ASSHOLE
22:28:20 <alise> pikhq: wat
22:28:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:29:09 <pikhq> alise: Take a 4:3 720p video, and rescale to 720x400.
22:29:15 <pikhq> Erm.
22:29:17 <pikhq> 480p video.
22:29:22 <pikhq> Not 640x480, which would make *some* sense. 720x400.
22:29:24 <alise> pikhq: "No."
22:29:31 <alise> Is that the right answer?
22:30:05 <pikhq> Moral of the story: the people who encode videos for torrents are assholes.
22:30:49 <alise> pikhq: Okay, torrent finished. I will try to have either a full guide, or an admission that it can't be done, in an hour or two.
22:31:01 <pikhq> Mmkay.
22:31:10 <coppro> alise: you got WA?
22:31:15 <alise> More likely two.
22:31:21 <alise> coppro: Yes, but I have not yet verified its usefulness.
22:31:28 <coppro> cpressey: the recovery CD won't wipe out Linux, just the bootleader. Have a disc handy to reinstall that
22:31:30 <alise> coppro: It is *very* non-trivial to get it working in WINE.
22:31:35 <coppro> alise: I see the guide
22:31:40 <alise> coppro: No.
22:31:41 <alise> It's outdated.
22:31:43 <coppro> oh :(
22:31:43 <alise> *Sorely* outdated.
22:31:51 <alise> As in "pre-Wine 1.0" outdated.
22:31:54 <coppro> also I should grab trunk wine
22:31:58 <alise> no
22:31:59 <alise> wine 1.3.3
22:32:03 <alise> it's the development release
22:32:03 <coppro> oh
22:32:05 <coppro> ok
22:32:11 <alise> older ones won't work online
22:32:13 <alise> (wormnet)
22:32:19 <alise> pikhq: link coppro to the .torrent, would you?
22:32:20 <alise> I'll be seeding.
22:32:33 <alise> coppro: and I'll tell you what to do with it soon, hopefully :P
22:32:35 <alise> once I figure it out
22:32:37 <coppro> ok
22:32:41 * coppro goes to grab wine
22:32:48 <alise> coppro: note: ubuntu repos version is old
22:32:51 <alise> uninstall it before installing 1.3.3
22:32:53 <alise> there is a PPA.
22:32:54 <pikhq> Uh, I no longer have it.
22:33:01 <pikhq> The link, that is.
22:33:03 <alise> pikhq: i'll get the link
22:33:11 <pikhq> http://isohunt.com/download/181634533/worms+armageddon.torrent
22:33:12 <pikhq> There.
22:33:13 <alise> coppro: http://isohunt.com/download/181634533/worms+armageddon.torrent
22:33:14 <pikhq> Log grep
22:33:14 <alise> lawl
22:33:29 <alise> coppro: Download that and I'll have the info on how to get it running soon.
22:33:31 <pikhq> Okay, I found something even worse...
22:33:49 <pikhq> Who the hell *posts DVD ISOs* but *does a re-encode for that*?
22:33:58 * coppro tries to figure out how to get the right git tag
22:34:02 <alise> coppro: dude
22:34:10 <alise> coppro: http://www.winehq.org/download/deb
22:34:15 <alise> use the freakin' repository
22:34:27 <alise> save yourself many pointless hours and possible misconfiguration
22:34:46 <coppro> oh, cool, a ppa
22:34:52 <alise> <alise> there is a PPA.
22:34:53 <alise> :P
22:35:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:35:10 <alise> you have to install wine1.3 package
22:35:11 <alise> not wine
22:35:14 <alise> *the wine1.3
22:36:04 <coppro> ok
22:36:20 <coppro> is the easiest way to switch base repos to use sed?
22:36:29 <coppro> I need to move onto the CSC's, since they're on LAN
22:36:30 <alise> what?
22:36:40 <alise> coppro: the easiest way is to use add-apt-repository
22:36:41 <alise> oh er
22:36:43 <alise> to swtich them?
22:36:46 <alise> just edit /etc/apt/sources.list
22:36:47 <alise> *switch
22:36:49 <alise> i wouldn't trust sed
22:36:51 <coppro> ok, so sed it is
22:37:21 <alise> are you seriously unable to make 4 simple edits without using sed? :p
22:37:28 <coppro> it's more than 4
22:38:12 <alise> coppro: are you downloading that torrent?
22:38:18 <alise> you're not connected to me
22:38:25 <coppro> I am
22:39:02 <cpressey> coppro: good point. i still don't trust it though.
22:39:15 <alise> coppro: well, it's all pikhq. and others
22:39:18 <alise> you're not connected to me, loser
22:39:38 <alise> brb
22:39:42 <alise> (brb a while)
22:39:59 <coppro> ok
22:40:30 <coppro> alise: your client won't connect to me :(
22:41:02 <pikhq> 576x432. *vomit*
22:43:09 <pikhq> YOU SUCK AND YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.
22:44:27 <cpressey> i am running the gnome desktop yet i do not have gnome-core installed
22:45:06 <Vorpal> <alise> you have to install wine1.3 package <-- I read that as win3.1 and then as wine3.1 XD
22:45:15 <cpressey> it must be one of those wrapper pkgs and i hae the individual pkgs installed
22:45:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://zem.fi/~fis/siikajarvi-1.jpg → http://zem.fi/~fis/siikajarvi-2.jpg (May 2010 → Oct 2010; it's not exactly the same place, but at least it's the same lake.)
22:46:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:46:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
22:46:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, the first is familiar
22:46:46 <fizzie> Yes, I've linked to it before.
22:46:51 <fizzie> Probably with a different name, though.
22:47:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, idea: find one place (preferably close to where you live) and take one panorama from the same place every month.
22:47:14 <Vorpal> might be interesting
22:47:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, "same place" would have to be "close enough that it looks about the same"
22:48:06 <Vorpal> and obviously it would be awkward doing that if not close to where you live
22:48:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you think?
22:48:27 <fizzie> I would like to take panoramas from one well-defined point at each of the four seasons, then align the whole set with panotools, then blend the images together.
22:48:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, blend or fuse?
22:48:53 <Vorpal> both would give weird results I bet
22:49:06 <Vorpal> I mean, trees sag if there is a lot of snow
22:49:34 <fizzie> Blend in the sense that one quarter of the image is mostly one season, but that they blend sort-of-seamlessly together.
22:50:06 <fizzie> To use as a wallpaper in the phone; it has those four horizontally-aligned desktops, with wraparound, and glide from one to another.
22:50:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, as for well defined point, surely you can find that? in the intersection above some stone slabs (obviously for roads using such, rather than asphalt)
22:50:44 <Vorpal> might be a bit hard to find in the winter though
22:50:44 <fizzie> Yes, but I haven't yet found a nice nearby place from where a 360-degree panorama would be pretty.
22:51:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, if it is just 4 times / year then it might not need to be *that* close
22:51:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, how far away is that lake?
22:51:47 <fizzie> Well, not too far. It's just that I'm rather lazy.
22:51:47 <Vorpal> it might work well if you decide on a specific pier (or whatever it is called, is pier just for more fixed ones?)
22:52:05 <fizzie> 1. (1) pier, wharf, wharfage, dock -- (a platform built out from the shore into the water and supported by piles; provides access to ships and boats)
22:52:14 <fizzie> That sounds like it wouldn't apply to a floating one.
22:52:29 <Vorpal> hm okay
22:52:30 <Vorpal> well
22:52:33 <Vorpal> "brygga"
22:52:35 <Vorpal> :P
22:54:49 <fizzie> Might work. Though I can't reuse either of those two images; not enough vertical FOV.
22:54:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm okay
22:55:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not enough?
22:55:31 <Vorpal> I mean, you have enough res to fill my screen vertically
22:55:36 <Vorpal> and that is more than a phone would have
22:55:51 <Vorpal> hm would be rather narrow on a phone
22:56:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw what irc client do you use on your n900?
22:56:10 <fizzie> If you scale -2 to 3200 pixels of width, the height will be 407 pixels; I need 3200x480.
22:56:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, err -2?
22:56:37 <fizzie> siikajarvi-2.jpg.
22:57:04 <Vorpal> ah
22:57:07 <fizzie> And "none"; just the included terminal emulator and openssh.
22:57:19 <Vorpal> ah
22:57:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, which irc client do you use over ssh then?
22:57:43 <fizzie> irssi.
22:57:50 <Vorpal> mhm
22:58:09 <fizzie> Though I did take a quick look at that weechat thing.
22:58:39 <fizzie> It seemed interesting, but core-dumped just when I got it going.
22:58:58 <cpressey> i used to use weechat
22:59:00 <cpressey> i think
23:00:07 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:00:15 <Vorpal> cpressey, on your n900?
23:00:45 <Vorpal> (I didn't know you had one?)
23:01:59 <fizzie> Just in general, I think.
23:02:07 <fizzie> It's a terminaly client too.
23:02:28 <cpressey> Vorpal: what? no
23:03:20 <fizzie> I did try out the x-chat Maemo port, but it wasn't really much of a port, someone had just compiled it with very minor changes, so it wasn't too mobile-friendly.
23:03:30 <cpressey> it has grown since i last used it, it seems
23:05:10 <fizzie> I think I have a local irssi on the phone too, but haven't really used it.
23:05:42 <cpressey> bugs me when i can't find out the license that a project uses in 2 minutes of browsing their website
23:07:04 <Vorpal> cpressey, which project?
23:07:17 <cpressey> Vorpal: irssi!
23:07:21 <Vorpal> oh hah
23:07:35 <cpressey> also, there is no apt package for MIT dungeon. I guess because it's not technically free.
23:07:37 -!- fizzien900 has joined.
23:07:38 <Vorpal> Name : irssi
23:07:38 <Vorpal> Version : 0.8.15-3
23:07:38 <Vorpal> URL : http://irssi.org/
23:07:38 <Vorpal> Licenses : GPL
23:07:42 <Vorpal> is what my package manager claims
23:07:45 <fizzien900> Yes, there is a local irssi.
23:07:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, that could be any version of GPL
23:07:57 <cpressey> yeah, i eventually had to go to ubuntu to find that out
23:08:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, hah
23:08:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, took me half a minute to find
23:09:00 <Vorpal> http://svn.irssi.org/repos/irssi/trunk/COPYING
23:09:00 <Vorpal> :P
23:09:20 <Vorpal> download -> svn -> irssi -> trunk -> COPYING
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23:09:50 <cpressey> sure, hide it in the sources.
23:09:59 <Vorpal> cpressey, this is easier to read in browser (doesn't open download dialog): http://svn.irssi.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/irssi/trunk/COPYING?view=markup&revision=4488&root=irssi
23:10:04 <cpressey> also: "nethack-lisp"? this means what now?
23:10:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, what about it?
23:10:36 <Vorpal> isn't it just the emacs interface to nethack?
23:10:44 <Vorpal> hm
23:10:50 <Vorpal> that would be nethack-el?
23:11:02 <cpressey> yes, that is nethack-el
23:11:13 <cpressey> thus my wonderment at -lisp
23:11:14 <Vorpal> - nethack-lisp : Lisp window version.
23:11:28 <cpressey> still not exactly illuminated.
23:11:29 <Vorpal> cpressey, I don't have any ubuntu based system turned on atm
23:11:31 <Vorpal> can't check
23:11:36 <cpressey> well, i'll try it
23:11:52 <Vorpal> cpressey, nethack-el depends on nethack-lisp though
23:12:19 <fizzie> This package contains the Lisp window version, required
23:12:19 <fizzie> for playing Nethack under Emacs.
23:12:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, "lisp window" eh?
23:12:35 <fizzie> That's what the package description says.
23:12:44 <Vorpal> I wonder what it means
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23:13:13 <Vorpal> catseye, hm?
23:13:19 <catseye> weechat!
23:13:22 <Vorpal> ah
23:13:35 <fizzie> NetHack has the term "window system" for all the frontends; I guess that's just something lisp-friendly.
23:13:53 <Vorpal> perhaps
23:14:00 <fizzie> And the -el package would have the Emacs-lisp side of it.
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23:14:29 <Vorpal> it doesn't depend on anything lispy
23:14:35 <Vorpal> Build-Depends: flex, bison, groff-base, debhelper (>= 7), libx11-dev, libxt-dev, libxext-dev, libxmu-dev, bsdmainutils, libxaw7-dev | libxaw-dev, libncurses5-dev | libncurses-dev, libqt3-mt-dev (>= 3:3.3.4-7), dpatch, po-debconf, xfonts-utils
23:14:48 <fizzie> Well, why should it?
23:14:51 <catseye> wow!
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23:14:59 <catseye> this is what you get when you run nethack-lisp: http://pastie.org/1211870
23:15:02 <Vorpal> ncurses and libxaw?
23:15:10 <catseye> i can't get past that prompt yet
23:15:13 <Vorpal> catseye, hah
23:15:32 <Vorpal> catseye, try one of 1 2 and 1?
23:15:48 <catseye> Vorpal: it just exits no matter what i put in
23:15:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's build-depends; it's for building all the frontend packages.
23:16:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, true, but stilll
23:16:06 <Vorpal> still*
23:16:08 * catseye thinks he likes weechat slightly better than irssi
23:16:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, it was the build deps I meant
23:16:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it is written in C I presume
23:16:34 <fizzie> Sure, why not? It only needs to print out sexprs.
23:19:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, and perhaps parse them
23:20:51 <fizzien900> Not if it just prompts for numbers and strings, though.
23:21:07 <fizzien900> Whoops, maybe I should close this.
23:21:20 <Vorpal> fizzien900, well maybe it wants (93) or such
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23:21:35 <catseye> oh hey, i didn't try 121.. that does something
23:21:48 <Vorpal> catseye, that's absurd
23:22:02 <Vorpal> catseye, maybe (121 option) ?
23:22:05 <Vorpal> or such
23:22:08 <Vorpal> or just 121
23:22:10 <Vorpal> y
23:22:22 <Vorpal> catseye, maybe 121 is there to identify what it is responding to
23:22:35 <Vorpal> catseye, and what is that "something
23:22:37 <Vorpal> "
23:22:57 <catseye> aoops, made it segfault by typing in 105 at a help prompt
23:23:13 <Vorpal> catseye, so what did 121 do?
23:23:40 <catseye> Vorpal: apparentl it meant "y" as it rolled me a character
23:24:43 <catseye> oh duh
23:24:47 <catseye> ascii values i bet
23:25:11 <fizzie> There's sources for both the elisp interface as well as the lisp window system, so you don't really *need* to reverse-engineer it by trial-and-error.
23:25:18 <catseye> what's the key to redraw the screen in nethack?
23:25:37 <catseye> i want to see this thing give me a map
23:26:01 <Vorpal> catseye, why ascii code... you mean it sends it as number?
23:26:10 <Vorpal> (gdb) print 'y'
23:26:11 <Vorpal> $1 = 121 'y'
23:26:14 <Vorpal> hm indeed
23:26:15 <catseye> Vorpal: for the prompts, yes. 121=y, etc
23:26:19 <catseye> not for commands though
23:26:26 <fizzie> ^ord y
23:26:26 <fungot> 121
23:26:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah didn't know that
23:26:39 <Vorpal> ^show ord
23:26:39 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
23:26:44 <Vorpal> yeargh
23:26:59 <augur> what is that now
23:27:04 <fizzie> Decimal output in bf is necessarily a bit yeargh.
23:27:49 <catseye> a bit, a bit
23:28:22 <catseye> i give up for now -- the menu prompts want something that i cannot give it and they keep segfaulting
23:28:45 <catseye> pretty cool though
23:28:50 <catseye> more games should have lisp interfaces
23:30:47 <Vorpal> catseye, weird that it likes to segfault though
23:31:31 <catseye> CLiEnTS sHOUlD bE WRittEn prOPErLY!!.
23:31:35 <Vorpal> catseye, I mean, most programs I would expect would find segfaulting pretty scary!
23:31:43 <ais523> <catseye> what's the key to redraw the screen in nethack? <--- control-R
23:32:02 <ais523> fizzie: amazingly, the NetHack windowing system is the only part of the code that's actually documented
23:32:07 <Vorpal> catseye, um, what?
23:32:14 <ais523> there's a file in nethack-3.4.3/doc somewhere that explains the API
23:32:19 <Vorpal> catseye, I didn't mean that at all, why did you assume that!
23:33:13 <Vorpal> ais523, there are actually comments elsewhere in the code
23:33:18 <ais523> that doesn't really count
23:33:20 <Vorpal> ais523, does that not count as documentation?
23:33:23 <ais523> mostly they don't explain APIs
23:33:28 <ais523> but rather other things
23:33:39 <Vorpal> ah
23:33:39 <ais523> also, there's the infamous PUT THINGS THAT HAPPEN ONCE PER PLAYER INPUT HERE comment
23:33:48 <Vorpal> ais523, oh?
23:33:50 <ais523> which is a) completely accurate, and b) followed by things that shouldn't happen once per player input
23:33:54 <Vorpal> ais523, infamous why?
23:34:13 <Vorpal> ais523, so what are those things that shouldn't be done there?
23:34:14 <ais523> thus the docs are correct, but the code is wrong
23:34:19 <ais523> Vorpal: by mistake, presumably
23:34:22 <ais523> it leads to the lava time bug
23:34:27 <Vorpal> ais523, not why, what
23:34:36 <Vorpal> ah
23:34:42 <ais523> and possibly also the reverse lava time bug, except that nobody's sure what that one is except the NetHack devteam and they aren't telling
23:34:44 <Vorpal> ais523, fixed in next release maybe?
23:34:48 <ais523> of course...
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23:35:00 <Vorpal> ais523, and would the reverse one be exploitable?
23:35:22 <Vorpal> ais523, also how soon do you think next release would be?
23:35:23 <ais523> <Rodney> C343-231, fixed: Time is distorted while sinking into lava.
23:35:24 <Vorpal> a few years?
23:35:27 <ais523> Vorpal: it's on the list of exploitable bugs
23:35:33 <ais523> just nobody knows what it is
23:35:36 <ais523> and next release? who knows
23:35:57 <Vorpal> ais523, we won't see the fixed code until then
23:36:15 <ais523> nope, so we can't figure the bug that way
23:36:16 <fizzie> There's a poll in the wiki.
23:36:22 <ais523> (and even then, it may have been fixed with a rewrite...)
23:36:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, esolang wiki?
23:36:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, or nethack one?
23:36:35 <ais523> Wikia NetHack
23:36:44 <Vorpal> and what is the poll about?
23:36:56 <fizzie> Wikia one; on when the next release will be.
23:37:17 <fizzie> It's all just guesses, and not very serious ones, of course.
23:37:24 <Vorpal> ais523, you mean that they would rewrite just to hide what the bug was?
23:37:32 <Vorpal> or rewrite for other reasons?
23:37:47 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:38:00 <ais523> Vorpal: one of the theories for the lateness is that they tried a rewrite and screwed up the code somehow
23:38:03 <ais523> and are unwilling to revert it all
23:38:39 <Vorpal> ais523, is it just the lava thing that happens in that place and shouldn't?
23:38:41 <Vorpal> or other stuff too?
23:38:50 <ais523> just lava, I think
23:39:07 <ais523> either that, or lava plus something which has effects so subtle it isn't even obviously a bug, which wouldn't surprise me
23:39:15 <ais523> but still, the lava one is pretty bug
23:39:16 <ais523> *big
23:39:18 <ais523> well, both
23:39:30 <ais523> you can die by sinking into lava just by viewing your inventory...
23:40:05 <ais523> (I'm not sure what to change it to to fix the bug; once per time-consuming action, or once per monster turn)
23:40:13 <ais523> (there's a flavour justification for either)
23:40:42 <Vorpal> ais523, is there a difference between those?
23:40:56 <ais523> yep, say the player's wearing fireproof speed boots
23:41:05 <Vorpal> ais523, also, can monsters sink in lava?
23:41:12 <ais523> more dramatically, suppose the player falls asleep
23:41:12 <catseye> Vorpal: Why did I assume what?
23:41:22 <ais523> monster lava handling is rather simpler, either they instadie, or they're immune
23:41:27 <Vorpal> ah
23:41:43 <Vorpal> catseye, that I meant the code should be properly written
23:41:53 <Vorpal> catseye, <Vorpal> catseye, I mean, most programs I would expect would find segfaulting pretty scary!
23:42:16 <Vorpal> that is quite a different reason behind it
23:42:20 <Vorpal> now, night →
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23:53:22 <alise> <coppro> alise: your client won't connect to me :(
23:53:23 <alise> ?
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23:54:10 -!- augur has joined.
23:56:54 <alise> brb
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