←2010-10-14 2010-10-15 2010-10-16→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:04:32 -!- flippo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:04:35 -!- sebbu has joined.
00:05:23 <pikhq> Fuck it. Guess I should make a torrent creator.
00:05:57 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:06:14 <elliott> pikhq: in C++!
00:07:17 <Sgeo> Why not in Brainfuck+PSOX while he's at it?
00:07:30 <pikhq> elliott: Gag.
00:07:37 <elliott> pikhq: ok then D
00:07:40 <elliott> with bindings to Perl
00:07:49 <Sgeo> Factor!
00:07:50 <pikhq> elliott: Gag gag gag gag.
00:08:12 <elliott> pikhq: okay in x86-64 assembly, using win32
00:09:46 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Muxcomp
00:10:53 <elliott> pikhq: I propose we redesign networks.
00:11:27 <pikhq> elliott: Oh?
00:11:33 <elliott> pikhq: Why not?
00:12:33 <elliott> lifthrasiir: "infinte" --Versert spec
00:13:44 <pikhq> Aaaargh. A trackerless torrent should have a "nodes" key, with some number of DHT nodes close to the generating client.
00:13:59 <elliott> pikhq: Should, not must!
00:14:10 <pikhq> Or a single known good node operated by the person generating the torrent.
00:14:21 <pikhq> elliott: Must.
00:14:27 <elliott> pikhq: IGNORE IT
00:14:33 <pikhq> ... Wait. That could just be the initial seeder.
00:15:10 <elliott> pikhq: but then what if you die forever ???
00:15:13 <pikhq> And if you have no intention of sharing the actual torrent *file*, one could simply generate a file with
00:15:19 <elliott> pikhq: i suggest the strongly that you just omit it
00:15:22 <Sgeo> So 64-bit machines can handle up to 16 exabytes of RAM?
00:15:24 <elliott> and let the client bork
00:15:29 <elliott> define new standarddddd,
00:15:37 <elliott> "NYBBLE CASCADE"
00:15:47 <elliott> Sgeo: 64-bit memory bus, yes. x86-64, no.
00:16:07 <elliott> Although virtual addresses are 64 bits wide in 64-bit mode, current implementations (and any chips known to be in the planning stages) do not allow the entire virtual address space of 264 bytes (16 EB) to be used. Most operating systems and applications will not need such a large address space for the foreseeable future (for example, Windows implementations for AMD64 are only populating 16 TB, or 44 bits' worth), so implementing such wide virtual address
00:16:07 <elliott> es would simply increase the complexity and cost of address translation with no real benefit. AMD therefore decided that, in the first implementations of the architecture, only the least significant 48 bits of a virtual address would actually be used in address translation (page table lookup).[1](p130) Further, bits 48 through 63 of any virtual address must be copies of bit 47 (in a manner akin to sign extension), or the processor will raise an exception
00:16:08 <elliott> . Addresses complying with this rule are referred to as "canonical form."[1](p128) Canonical form addresses run from 0 through 00007FFF`FFFFFFFF, and from FFFF8000`00000000 through FFFFFFFF`FFFFFFFF, for a total of 256 TB of usable virtual address space.
00:16:10 <pikhq> elliott: Magnet URIs do not contain the nodes key, nor does the metadata shared in order to make a magnet URI work.
00:16:25 <elliott> pikhq: Then it doesn't matter, right?
00:16:56 * Sgeo wants more than 256TB RAM!
00:17:10 <comex> It's a very good thing that that's enforced.
00:17:12 <pikhq> elliott: Except that clients will expect it.
00:17:37 <pikhq> elliott: I think I'll have it default to for trackerless torrents, with a note that this may not work if you share the torrent file itself.
00:18:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:18:31 <elliott> pikhq: Try it with clients.
00:18:32 <elliott> I bet it works.
00:18:41 <elliott> comex: what is enforced
00:18:45 <elliott> canonical addresses or nodes in torrents
00:19:00 <comex> canonical addresses
00:19:29 <elliott> comex: i don't really see it as a very good thing per se
00:19:33 <elliott> just a feature of the architecture
00:19:36 <elliott> what's so grand about it
00:19:47 <comex> people won't stuff random stuff info the high bits :p
00:19:50 <comex> like me
00:19:51 <comex> I would do that
00:20:10 <elliott> comex: well there can always be other protections against that
00:20:20 <comex> actually, that annoys me because I had forgotten about it and I wanted to do something where the high 32 bits of an address was a CRC or something
00:20:41 <elliott> you could just say that it's an implementation detail
00:20:44 <elliott> rather than being actually sanctioned
00:20:54 <elliott> but i guess x86-64 is aggressively practical in the bad way :(
00:22:06 <Sgeo> What would be the purpose of stuffing random stuff into the high bits? Is there any realistic chance that something would break?
00:22:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Uhh, yes, when new memory comes out.
00:22:52 <pikhq> elliott: Oh hells yeah, it works.
00:22:59 <elliott> Your extra 256 TiB would be useless since people would stuff bullshit into the high bits used to access them.
00:23:03 <elliott> Isn't that obvious?
00:23:07 <elliott> pikhq: WOO
00:23:18 <elliott> pikhq: Gimme a DHT link for a file you just started seeding
00:23:19 <elliott> Without nodes
00:23:21 <elliott> magnet link
00:23:25 <elliott> I wanna see if my client is magical
00:23:27 <elliott> and can find you
00:23:54 <pikhq> elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:12cba1cfeb9a4b96b791a5697f31075e4888814e&dn=ski
00:24:02 <elliott> pikhq: That's something already published.
00:24:06 <elliott> I want some /dev/random.
00:24:12 <elliott> Let's see if BitTorrent can perform magic.
00:24:18 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, I'll go ahead and make some /dev/random .
00:24:37 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, currently I'm just editing a trackered torrent file to remove everything but the info dictionary.
00:24:40 <pikhq> (it's *mostly* ASCII)
00:25:02 <elliott> Isn't it bencode?
00:25:10 <elliott> Indeed.
00:25:21 <pikhq> Yuh, it's bencode.
00:25:44 <elliott> bencode is a bit rubbish
00:25:50 <elliott> I42e but 4:spam
00:25:53 <elliott> stick to one syntax!
00:26:02 <pikhq> But it works. Barely.
00:27:07 <pikhq> elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:821267eb9478f17f8632867ff1eb27d7990dcbaf&dn=random%5Fdata
00:27:24 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm.
00:27:28 <elliott> pikhq: It isn't listing the files to download :D
00:27:31 <elliott> I'll just assume it'll figure them out.
00:27:34 <elliott> pikhq: You seeding?
00:27:38 <elliott> I'm about to hit download.
00:28:05 <pikhq> elliott: Yuh, seeding.
00:28:24 <elliott> pikhq: Unsurprisingly, it doesn't work. At all.
00:28:30 <pikhq> elliott: And yeah, it'll only know what files are *in* the torrent once it's downloaded the info dictionary saying what's *in* the torrent.
00:28:37 <elliott> Turns out my machine cannot magically find your machine given a URN!
00:28:47 <pikhq> It'll take some time to find me from the DHT.
00:28:56 <elliott> ...it'll actually find you?
00:29:02 <elliott> I don't think Transmission knows of any peers near me.
00:29:05 <elliott> How would it?
00:29:15 <elliott> I've used this to download exactly one thing, NetBSD.
00:29:26 <pikhq> It's got to bootstrap DHT.
00:29:45 <pikhq> Each torrent client has one DHT node hardcoded.
00:29:50 <elliott> pikhq: Oh...joy.
00:29:53 <elliott> pikhq: How many hours will this take?
00:29:56 <pikhq> *Just* in case you aren't peered with anyone.
00:30:01 <elliott> And why won't it give me verbose progress indicators?
00:30:05 <elliott> It is sitting completely still.
00:30:12 <pikhq> It will once it has a clue.
00:30:24 <elliott> pikhq: It's downloading metadata from 0 peers.
00:30:27 <elliott> I am not convinced this will work.
00:30:37 <pikhq> Shouldn't take long, but it'll go faster if you get on another torrent.
00:32:17 <elliott> pikhq: The latest Ubuntu should do, right?
00:32:18 <Sgeo> Time to play more Portal
00:32:20 <elliott> That'll have a lot of peers.
00:32:26 <elliott> Also, are you using Transmission?
00:32:40 <pikhq> Yes, I am.
00:32:59 * elliott waits for the Ubuntu torrent to start, re-adds yours
00:33:01 <pikhq> If you really want it to go fast, I could get in on the latest Ubuntu, too.
00:33:11 <pikhq> (hand me the magnet URI, with trackers)
00:33:18 <elliott> pikhq: That's cheating.
00:33:21 <Sgeo> All this for a small binary file?
00:33:27 <elliott> pikhq: Do you have other torrents going?
00:33:32 <pikhq> elliott: Several.
00:33:35 <elliott> It's still from 0 peers :(
00:33:40 <elliott> pikhq: Let's just hope there's overlap.
00:33:42 <elliott> Sgeo: It's a proof of concept.
00:33:45 <elliott> pikhq: How big is the file, anyway?
00:33:51 <pikhq> elliott: 20M.
00:34:50 <elliott> pikhq: Connected to 112 peers on the Ubuntu tracker, still downloading metadata from 0 peers on yours.
00:36:00 <elliott> pikhq: This... yeah, yours isn't doing shit.
00:36:13 <pikhq> Hand me the magnet uri without trackers? :P
00:36:33 <elliott> pikhq: KAY
00:36:44 <elliott> pikhq: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bcf2e587afd4d3b1bdd8ece5150d9fb4d2958af4&dn=ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso
00:36:50 <elliott> GOOD LUCK BITCH
00:37:13 * pikhq twiddles thumbs
00:37:46 <pikhq> Got a peer.
00:37:48 <elliott> pikhq: I sure hope you get connected before mine finishes downloading.
00:37:50 <elliott> Wow.
00:37:53 <elliott> You are a DHT god.
00:38:05 <pikhq> 3 peers.
00:38:07 <elliott> pikhq: Proposal: Torrent clients come with, like, 5,000 DHT peers.
00:38:15 <pikhq> 4
00:38:17 <pikhq> 8
00:38:19 <pikhq> 16
00:38:21 <pikhq> 23
00:38:23 <pikhq> 34
00:38:27 <elliott> These are randomly selected, weighted by speed/reliability/connections/etc., from a gigantic pool of DHT peers.
00:38:29 <pikhq> I think you get the picture.
00:38:37 <elliott> Each release, a new set is substituted.
00:38:44 <elliott> Thus everybody gets a DHT network built-in.
00:39:09 <pikhq> You are not among those peers.
00:39:30 <pikhq> Hmm. Wait. Are you behind a NAT that you can't punch a hole through?
00:39:41 <pikhq> s/can't/haven't/
00:39:43 <elliott> pikhq: I have tons of peers from DHT.
00:39:52 <elliott> Let's see if my incoming port is open.
00:39:54 <elliott> OOH THE EXCITE
00:40:00 <elliott> If not I can easily forward it.
00:40:02 <elliott> pikhq: I think that may be the case.
00:40:07 <elliott> New OS install, forget to change the port...
00:40:14 <elliott> pikhq: YUP that's it.
00:40:18 <elliott> Lemme fix.
00:40:35 <pikhq> Yeah, that'll make DHT work less well.
00:41:01 <elliott> pikhq: Is the "port for incoming connections" TCP or UDP?
00:41:06 <pikhq> TCP
00:41:06 <elliott> i.e. do I want 51420 or 6881
00:41:33 <pikhq> Try UDP too, I guess.
00:41:45 <elliott> pikhq: I am now attempting your random_data torrent without being connected to the Ubuntu one.
00:42:07 <elliott> pikhq: 1 peer!
00:42:11 <pikhq> \o/
00:42:15 <elliott> pikhq: Are you
00:42:20 <pikhq> Yes.
00:42:21 <elliott> 0% done though :P
00:42:27 <elliott> WHY WON'T YOUR CLIENT TALK TO ME
00:42:31 <pikhq> You're unchoked.
00:42:35 <pikhq> Not my fault.
00:42:37 <elliott> "but we're not interested"
00:42:53 <elliott> pikhq: EXPLAIN
00:42:56 <pikhq> Wanting more peers, rather than the sole seeder?
00:43:12 <elliott> Well ... fuck that, you don't make my decisions for me Transmission :P
00:43:23 <elliott> pikhq: Any way to punch it and make it download?
00:43:40 <pikhq> None that I know of.
00:43:50 <pikhq> Except, uh, uh.
00:44:08 <pikhq> Restart it? I dunno. It ought to retain the info dictionary.
00:44:33 <elliott> Pause. Play!
00:44:39 <elliott> It's forgotten you exist :P
00:44:48 <elliott> pikhq: It's actually still trying to download the metadata.
00:44:52 <elliott> Apparently you're just not good enough.
00:45:03 <pikhq> Baaah.
00:45:37 <elliott> pikhq: "Created on 01 Jan 1970"
00:45:51 <elliott> olsner: ping
00:45:52 <elliott> comex: ping
00:45:58 <elliott> Sgeo: ping
00:46:09 <catseye> pong
00:46:30 <elliott> catseye: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:821267eb9478f17f8632867ff1eb27d7990dcbaf&dn=random%5Fdata
00:46:40 <elliott> catseye: put this in transmission's File -> Add URL...
00:46:45 <elliott> add it
00:46:50 <elliott> and hope that it helps me find happiness ;______;
00:47:04 <catseye> will have to wait, sry
00:47:16 <elliott> catseye: BAH
00:47:41 <comex> (23:54:19) Could not find any trackers
00:47:44 <comex> -rtorrent
00:47:51 <comex> (it says that instantly, no wait...)
00:47:56 <pikhq> comex: Well, yes, there aren't any trackers.
00:48:01 <elliott> comex: dht bitch
00:48:07 <pikhq> rtorrent, BTW, is rather stupid about its DHT support.
00:48:08 <elliott> comex: wait for the love to come pouring in
00:48:10 <elliott> ...or not
00:48:12 <comex> oh...?
00:48:15 <elliott> rtorrent is like the worst client ever
00:48:15 <comex> I thought rtorrent supported DHT
00:48:17 * Mathnerd314 opens up Deluge and follows along
00:48:20 <pikhq> You need to make a session dir for it to work.
00:48:35 <pikhq> rtorrent -s . uri
00:48:46 <elliott> pikhq: btw, do clients remember their DHT peers even after restarts?
00:49:02 <comex> I want (a) to be able to select individual files, (b) command line operation, (c) magnet URI
00:49:09 <pikhq> elliott: I *think* so, but I'm not sure.
00:49:15 <pikhq> comex: transmission-cli
00:49:19 <elliott> comex: oh come on, rtorrent is not command-line
00:49:27 <comex> it works over SSH
00:49:34 <elliott> it's a shitty gui that you poke random letters to operate and then deal with its terrible character-based representation of a badly-designed GUI
00:49:38 <comex> fine, that's not command line :p
00:49:45 <pikhq> comex: It also runs an HTTP server.
00:49:50 <elliott> but what pikhq said
00:49:54 <elliott> yeah transmission's web server thing is great
00:49:58 <elliott> or you could just run the daemon
00:50:04 <pikhq> Yeah, that too.
00:50:05 <elliott> and use the remote
00:50:11 <pikhq> Or the HTTP server.
00:50:11 <pikhq> :)
00:50:11 <elliott> or both
00:50:16 <elliott> run the daemon, which powers the web server
00:50:19 <elliott> and use both the web server and the remote!
00:50:27 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:50:33 <comex> web servers are fiddly
00:50:40 <elliott> comex: it has a command to set it up for you
00:50:44 <elliott> it has its own
00:50:45 <comex> FIDDLY
00:50:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:50:46 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
00:50:50 <pikhq> comex: It just works.
00:50:54 <comex> and I'm in SSH anyway to start it, might as well manage it from there
00:51:01 <comex> I don't want to keep it running at all times.
00:51:01 <comex> so.
00:51:04 <elliott> pikhq: I propose we all download http://releases.ubuntu.com/maverick/ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso.torrent
00:51:06 <elliott> to peer
00:51:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: http://releases.ubuntu.com/maverick/ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso.torrent
00:51:17 <elliott> Mathnerd314: This is our tracker; download it :P
00:52:48 <elliott> pikhq: If we can actually get this working, I propose we create a torrent listing site for trackerless torernts.
00:52:49 <elliott> *torrents.
00:53:33 <elliott> pikhq: I also propose that it offers a trackered 10 megabyte file of /dev/random that users are recommended to connect to regularly to aid peer discovery :P
00:53:33 <Mathnerd314> so let me figure this out... I download all of ubuntu 10.10 to download this other one file?
00:53:47 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Well, yes. Actually it should just let us find each other.
00:53:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Are you connected to a peer for random_data?
00:54:00 <Mathnerd314> yeah
00:54:11 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Downloading Ubuntu Smelly Socks?
00:54:18 <pikhq> Oh, look, I am connected to a Deluge client.
00:54:26 <Mathnerd314> yay, that's probably me
00:54:40 <elliott> pikhq: But since my client is PMSing, it refuses to listen to you, and so I can never discover Mathnerd314 apart from with the Ubuntu torrent.
00:54:43 <pikhq> Let's see if either of you guys actually try downloading anything. You're both unchoked.
00:54:45 <elliott> Mathnerd314: In conclusion: CONNECT TO THAT TORRENT
00:54:46 <pikhq> And I'm the sole seed.
00:54:59 <elliott> Mathnerd314:
00:55:01 <elliott> that is you, yse?
00:55:04 <elliott> wait, maybe not
00:55:05 <elliott> that person has 10)%
00:55:07 <elliott> *100%
00:55:22 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Dood, if you're not downloading Ubuntu, just do it, it'll help both of us :P
00:55:51 <Mathnerd314> I am, I have .02% so far
00:55:51 <comex> why do you want ubuntu
00:55:53 <comex> stable
00:56:05 <comex> and why do you want an iso
00:56:11 <comex> with about half of what you need and a lot of stuff you don't
00:56:12 <elliott> comex: we don't
00:56:20 <elliott> comex: it's because it has a shitload of peers
00:56:25 <comex> and why do you want i386
00:56:26 <elliott> take the hate elsewhere
00:56:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ribbit, er reboot).
00:56:37 <comex> direct download works fine :p
00:56:47 <elliott> We are doing this to *find peers* for the *other thing*.
00:56:53 <elliott> Direct download has *nothing to do with it*.
00:57:09 <elliott> And, say, what did you install your last OS with? A floppy disk image?
00:57:17 <pikhq> AND I AM THE SOLE SEED
00:57:58 <comex> netboot :p
00:58:12 <comex> and that's pretty funny, actually
00:58:25 <elliott> netboot is an utter waste of time. there is nothing wrong with .isos
00:58:44 <Mathnerd314> so who is ? that's the only person I see
00:59:27 <elliott> pikhq
00:59:35 <elliott> and your client is being huffy towards him
00:59:48 <Mathnerd314> how so?
01:00:05 <pikhq> It's not downloading from me.
01:00:07 <pikhq> The only peer.
01:00:11 <pikhq> Erm, seed.
01:00:21 <Mathnerd314> and it should be?
01:00:26 <pikhq> Yes.
01:00:30 <pikhq> It should download from the only seed.
01:01:01 <pikhq> But instead everybody's being all huffy about it.
01:01:13 <comex> sure there is
01:01:25 <comex> I was installing an OS onto a computer that didn't have a CD drive
01:01:56 <elliott> ITT: USB drives
01:02:56 <elliott> pikhq: This does not work.
01:02:59 <elliott> pikhq: Would it have worked even if you specified yourself in the nodes?
01:03:22 <pikhq> elliott: Dude, you have absolutely no information about what the nodes entry could have been.
01:03:44 <elliott> pikhq: I mean -- if you gave it in a .torrent.
01:03:52 <pikhq> Probably not.
01:04:05 <pikhq> When you use a magnet URI, the only information beyond what's in the magnet URI is checksums, filenames, and file sizes.
01:04:15 <elliott> pikhq: But in a .torrent, would it have worked?
01:04:20 <pikhq> No.
01:04:21 <elliott> If you gave me a .torrent.
01:04:22 <elliott> With nodes.
01:04:31 <pikhq> No.
01:04:39 <pikhq> There's a chance it'd work with a tracker.
01:04:50 <elliott> Duh :P
01:05:02 <elliott> pikhq: I give up.
01:05:18 <elliott> pikhq: Say, is &dn= actually required?
01:05:21 <pikhq> The thing is, your clients seem convinced that if they hold out they can have more peers.
01:05:34 <pikhq> No, it just makes it look less shitty.
01:05:53 <elliott> pikhq: Come to think of it... the way you use magnet: is kinda silly there.
01:05:58 <elliott> Why not just say urn:btih:821267eb9478f17f8632867ff1eb27d7990dcbaf?
01:06:09 <elliott> You basically have foo:?bar=a-urn
01:06:12 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:06:21 <pikhq> Because a magnet URI can be pasted directly into a client.
01:06:28 <elliott> BAH :P
01:06:44 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, it would be supercool if a torrent could actually be identified and downloaded entirely by magnet:?xt=urn:btih:821267eb9478f17f8632867ff1eb27d7990dcbaf.
01:06:49 <elliott> I charge you with figuring out how to make clients like it.
01:06:58 <elliott> pikhq: (Perhaps just getting about 10 seeders first would work?)
01:07:05 <catseye> elliott: Transmission has no such menu "File"
01:07:16 <catseye> Wait "New..." mightg work
01:07:18 <pikhq> elliott: Try downloading this: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bcf2e587afd4d3b1bdd8ece5150d9fb4d2958af4
01:07:21 <elliott> catseye: Yes... it does...
01:07:32 <elliott> pikhq: 26 peers?
01:07:34 <elliott> what is this, Ubuntu?
01:07:37 <pikhq> Yes.
01:07:42 <elliott> that was amazingly quick
01:07:50 <pikhq> That's how it's supposed to work.
01:07:55 <catseye> elliott: It... crashed
01:07:57 <elliott> i approve
01:08:00 <elliott> pikhq: and no torrents either!
01:08:16 <elliott> catseye: http://www.transmissionbt.com/images/screenshots/GTK-Large.jpg
01:08:17 <elliott> see File menu
01:08:30 <catseye> New... source: paste in that magnet link, click "New", and... Transmission go bye bye
01:08:38 <elliott> no
01:08:40 <elliott> File -> Add URL
01:08:44 <pikhq> Okay, I think we can conclude that trackerless *kinda* sucks with small torrents.
01:09:08 <elliott> pikhq: Now you get to figure out how to make it not suck.
01:09:14 <elliott> pikhq: Coerce a client to download from one peer!
01:09:21 <elliott> pikhq: If you have to patch it, so be it :P
01:09:22 <catseye> elliott: "Torrent | Add..." prompts me for a file
01:09:29 <elliott> catseye: http://www.transmissionbt.com/images/screenshots/GTK-Large.jpg
01:09:32 <elliott> Look at that screenshot.
01:09:35 <elliott> See where "File" is?
01:09:39 <elliott> Press that on your Transmission.
01:09:43 <elliott> Then click "Add URL...".
01:09:44 <catseye> elliott: My transmission is DIFFERENT.
01:09:52 <elliott> catseye: Ookayyy... screenshot?
01:11:22 <catseye> elliott: http://imgur.com/OxBeJ.png
01:11:38 <elliott> catseye: sudo apt-get upgrade :p
01:11:49 <Quadlex> fuck fuck fuck
01:12:47 <elliott> Quadlex: what?
01:12:54 <catseye> elliott: am at best will have I on Ibex. not upgrading version of Ubuntu tonite. sorry
01:13:04 <catseye> maybe compile xmission from source, but later.
01:13:07 <elliott> catseye: upgrade is not distro upgrade
01:13:07 <Quadlex> I'm out of ritalin
01:13:16 <elliott> catseye: upgrade is just repo upgrade
01:13:20 <elliott> also, "compile xmission"?
01:13:27 <elliott> Quadlex: enjoy the hyper
01:13:28 <pikhq> elliott: Fortunately, using publicbt or openbittorrent is really really simple...
01:13:29 <catseye> elliott: how else you convice pkg mgr give you good shit huh?
01:13:33 <pikhq> elliott: You just list that as the tracker. That's it.
01:13:35 <elliott> pikhq: openbittorrent never freaking works
01:13:45 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, just publicbt then.
01:13:46 <elliott> catseye: what drug did you just take?
01:13:58 <Quadlex> -_- Hardly
01:14:17 <elliott> Quadlex: HAPPY HAPPY FUN FUN
01:14:38 <catseye> elliott: HD#)@HSLNLA>MM WA WAWAWA WA
01:14:46 <catseye> Ahem. Yes.
01:14:48 <elliott> catseye: no seriously what
01:14:54 <elliott> <catseye> maybe compile xmission from source, but later.
01:14:55 <elliott> ELABORATE
01:15:02 <elliott> also ibex really?
01:15:04 <elliott> 8.10, impressive
01:15:12 <catseye> x=trans
01:15:15 <elliott> wonder if there's still a warty warthog user going around
01:15:45 <elliott> catseye: so you'll totally use kitten RIGHT???
01:15:51 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, I see. Openbittorrent seems not to have HTTP tracking any more.
01:15:56 <elliott> pikhq: ...seriously?
01:15:59 <elliott> pikhq: WHY
01:16:07 <pikhq> I dunno.
01:16:12 <pikhq> "UDP IS BETTER"?
01:16:16 <elliott> "We kindly ask you not to use the OBT trackers in torrents resulting in unauthorized distribution of copyrighted files (movies, music, games and so on)."
01:16:16 <elliott> lol
01:16:29 <elliott> "If you want to add OBT to a massive amount of torrents, you must ask us first.
01:16:30 <elliott> Don't add OBT as the default tracker when torrents are uploaded on your site without our written consent."
01:16:31 <elliott> wow
01:16:39 <elliott> pikhq: it's neither open nor a tracker for anything people actually want!
01:16:50 <elliott> OpenBitTorrent, the non-open non-tracker!
01:17:08 <pikhq> elliott: It tracks, just not using HTTP+TCP.
01:17:08 <elliott> "A few pointers to people considering sending DMCA takedown notices:" But but I thought people weren't meant to use them for copyrighted things.
01:17:14 <catseye> if only it were also ternary
01:17:33 <pikhq> elliott: publicbt, on the other hand, says nothing about usage.
01:17:50 <elliott> pikhq: DHT, on the other hand, does not require relying on anybody.
01:18:11 <elliott> pikhq: I propose we tweak clients / write our own client to be saner when faced with small DHT torrents.
01:18:16 <elliott> Sometime.
01:18:16 <pikhq> elliott: Except "If you want to scrape for stats on torrents here, grab the entire set of stats instead of scraping for each torrent."
01:18:36 <elliott> "OpenBitTorrent has been suspected of being a part of or a side project of The Pirate Bay, because it was observed early on that both sites used the same trackers.[2] The OpenBitTorrent project has countered by stating that the sites merely shared a tracker cluster operated by DCP Networks and Fredrik Neij during a startup period (February through August 2009)."
01:18:37 <elliott> Suuuuure
01:18:43 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, DHT is in addition to the tracker, so you don't really *depend* on it.
01:19:13 <elliott> pikhq: I tells ya. We need to make a DHT-only client.
01:19:15 <elliott> Cascade!
01:19:16 <pikhq> Except that it seems not to work in the pathological case of 1 seed.
01:19:23 <elliott> HAVE YOU TRIED TWO SEEDS
01:19:45 <pikhq> elliott: WOULD YOU LIKE A COPY? IF SO, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT?
01:19:53 <elliott> pikhq: wut
01:19:58 <pikhq> ... Screw it. filebin.ca
01:20:07 <elliott> pikhq: Of... what? random_data?
01:20:10 <pikhq> Yes.
01:20:32 <elliott> pikhq: No :P
01:20:41 <pikhq> Aaaw.
01:20:57 <pikhq> Hmm.
01:21:19 * pikhq tries creating a torrent with a web seed from codu.org.
01:21:22 <elliott> pikhq: Basically if we just take an existing client, rip out all the tracker code, and add a smarter rule for when to download from clients...
01:21:31 <elliott> Voila, Cascade 0.1.
01:23:09 <elliott> pikhq: If you don't do that, I totally will :P
01:23:12 <elliott> But right now, I will sleep.
01:23:29 <elliott> pikhq: Kitten. BEWARE
01:23:32 <elliott> Goodnight; bye.
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01:24:21 <pikhq> Fun fact: Transmission doesn't copy web seeds into the magnet URI.
01:25:02 <pikhq> Aaah, that's because there is no spec for that yet.
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01:32:58 <catseye> "The gnutella protocol remains under development and in spite of attempts to make a clean break with the complexity inherited from the old gnutella 0.4 and to design a clean new message architecture, it is still one of the most successful file-sharing protocols to date."
01:33:18 <catseye> ... "in spite of attempts to make it better, it's good"?
01:34:35 <pikhq> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:23000501613b867e5b269b7ec15e76b8accdb784&dn=GRegor-op13-mov1.ogg&ws=http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1.ogg MWAHAHAHA
01:34:36 <Sgeo> elliot, was playing Portal
01:35:38 <pikhq> Someone wanna try that?
01:38:14 <Gregor> pikhq: ...???
01:38:41 <pikhq> Gregor: You were convenient.
01:41:54 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: I think I'm trying
01:42:07 <Mathnerd314> no peers though
01:44:16 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: And now?
01:44:41 <Mathnerd314> nope...
01:45:01 <pikhq> Weird.
01:45:35 <Mathnerd314> I'll try downloading ubuntu again
01:46:04 <pikhq> Try restarting the torrent
01:47:18 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: still nothing :-/
01:47:38 <pikhq> Weird; it should at *least* be connecting and fetching the torrent file.
01:52:33 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: maybe you meant xs instead of ws in your magnet?
01:55:30 * Sgeo is going to try TAG
01:56:51 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: wikipedia claims that's a BBS?
01:57:03 <Sgeo> The game
01:57:06 <Sgeo> Computer game
01:57:50 <Mathnerd314> link?
01:58:53 <Sgeo> v
01:58:54 <Sgeo> https://www.digipen.edu/studentprojects/tag/
02:00:23 <Mathnerd314> website seems broken
02:00:33 <Mathnerd314> (ThePowerofPaint.com)
02:01:07 <Sgeo> ?
02:01:25 <Mathnerd314> so I have no idea of where to get it
02:01:27 <Sgeo> That's not the.. I don't know what that is
02:01:35 <Sgeo> "Download Tag"
02:01:55 <Sgeo> BTW, it was the inspiration for one of Portal 2's game mechanics
02:02:02 <Sgeo> And Valve hired the people who made it
02:02:28 * Mathnerd314 sees
02:02:41 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: you finally showed up as a peer
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03:26:16 <catseye> @tell oerjan we have a note-taker bot now.
03:26:16 <storkbot> catseye: Consider it noted.
03:26:26 <catseye> @tell elliot we have a note-taker bot now.
03:26:26 <storkbot> catseye: Consider it noted.
03:26:41 <catseye> @tell ais523 we have a note-taker bot now.
03:26:41 <storkbot> catseye: Consider it noted.
03:27:33 <Sgeo> And I'm not considered worthy
03:28:50 <catseye> @tell Sgeo I figured that since you were in the US you would probably see this before you went to sleep.
03:28:50 <storkbot> catseye: Consider it noted.
03:29:08 <catseye> Sgeo: now say something
03:29:15 <Sgeo> Testing
03:29:15 <storkbot> Sgeo: catseye told me to tell you: I figured that since you were in the US you would probably see this before you went to sleep.
03:29:20 <Sgeo> Awesome
03:33:37 <catseye> @tell elliott we have a note-taker bot now.
03:33:37 <storkbot> catseye: Consider it noted.
03:33:41 <catseye> (two t's)
03:34:55 <catseye> `wl de ophthalmologist
03:35:27 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:39:23 <catseye> `wl de Explosion
03:39:46 <HackEgo> Explosion
03:42:28 <Mathnerd314> `wl de what
03:42:33 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:42:41 <Mathnerd314> `wl de is
03:42:47 <HackEgo> IS
03:42:51 <Mathnerd314> `wl de this
03:42:55 <HackEgo> This
03:43:03 <Mathnerd314> `wl de weird
03:43:07 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:43:17 <Mathnerd314> `wl de command?
03:43:21 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:44:05 <catseye> German? What's THAT?
03:44:17 <catseye> `wl en de What
03:44:19 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:44:26 <catseye> `wl en fr What
03:44:28 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:44:33 <catseye> `wl en fr Bread
03:44:36 <HackEgo> Pain
03:44:44 <catseye> `wl en de Bread
03:44:46 <HackEgo> Brot
03:45:05 <Mathnerd314> `wl en de babelfish
03:45:05 <catseye> finally
03:45:09 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
03:45:21 <catseye> `wl en zh Translator
03:45:24 <HackEgo> 翻译
03:45:44 <Mathnerd314> why does it keep saying "My hovercraft is full of eels."?
03:45:56 <catseye> Mathnerd314: that's it's "no translation found" error message.
03:46:16 <Mathnerd314> ok...
03:50:08 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20W_R-wWFA8
03:50:51 <Mathnerd314> why is it 18 or older?
03:51:04 <augur> because it shows a slaughter.
03:53:59 <Mathnerd314> I really don't feel like making a youtube account
03:54:42 <augur> k
03:56:26 <Mathnerd314> unless it has lots of blood and gore...?
03:56:40 <augur> not really
04:00:52 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Okay, I've concluded that Transmission is broken as an initial seed.
04:01:13 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I'm going to try Deluge and see if that works better.
04:02:12 <Mathnerd314> cool. tell me when to look / try
04:09:17 <catseye> er... so I just compiled my first non-trivial Go program. (well, it's 'cat', so whether it is trivial or not is arguable.)
04:09:50 <catseye> The executable size is a svelte 475K.
04:09:55 <catseye> *after* stripping.
04:10:23 <catseye> Also I was amused to find: "The Go for statement differs from that of C in a number of ways. First, it's the only looping construct; there is no while or do."
04:10:24 <pikhq> Transmission is *also* broken at web seeding.
04:10:31 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Try now. :D
04:14:32 <Mathnerd314> I'm not certain what to try...
04:15:14 <Mathnerd314> I have the two files still trying to download
04:15:36 <Mathnerd314> but neither with any peers
04:16:04 <pikhq> Sorry, Deluge is busy checking one absurdly large torrent ATM.
04:16:05 <Mathnerd314> ^ pikhq
04:16:33 <pikhq> Give it a bit.
04:17:48 * Mathnerd314 waits
04:18:20 * Mathnerd314 goes back to reading Hybrid Theory
04:20:20 * Mathnerd314 goes to sleep
04:20:20 <pikhq> Okay, seeding.
04:20:31 * Mathnerd314 wakes up
04:21:58 <catseye> "In Go the rule about visibility of information is simple: if a name [...] is capitalized, users of the package may see it. Otherwise, the name [...]
04:22:00 <catseye> is visible only inside the package in which it is declared."
04:22:29 <catseye> this language is starting to kinda suck
04:23:19 <Mathnerd314> catseye: Go sucked even before it had no windows port
04:23:48 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: no dice
04:24:25 <Mathnerd314> but I'll leave the daemon running overnight
04:27:51 <catseye> "Comments do not nest."
04:27:55 <catseye> wtg
04:28:12 <catseye> why would the programmer ever want to nest comments
04:28:36 <catseye> it's not like you ever want to comment out a block of code that already has comments in it
04:28:41 <catseye> that just never happens
04:30:17 <catseye> Mathnerd314: I'm converging on your opinion there
04:31:41 <pikhq> elliott: Dude, Deluge supports hooking up to a torrent with *just* the infohash.
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04:33:23 <catseye> "Two types are either identical or different."
04:33:46 <catseye> am reminded of the comment about how to multiply values by two on a ternary system
04:36:14 <pikhq> Pity absolutely nothing supports tracker exchange.
04:39:00 <catseye> "If the type assertion holds, the value of the expression is the value stored in x and its type is T. If the type assertion is false, a run-time panic occurs. In other words, even though the dynamic type of x is known only at run-time, the type of x.(T) is known to be T in a correct program."
04:39:03 * catseye gives up
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04:39:19 <catseye> srsly
04:39:31 * catseye mentally categorizes this language next to Falcon
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04:46:16 <pikhq> ... Holy *fuck* I think I hate Deluge now.
04:46:27 <pikhq> It's hogging a whole CPU.
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06:16:50 <pikhq> http://i.imgur.com/IO6jL.jpg
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06:35:57 <Sgeo> pikhq, awesome
06:39:38 <Slereah> *old
06:39:56 <augur> howd that happen
06:41:48 <pikhq> augur: Custom map with 4 portals arranged just right.
06:42:03 <augur> ahhhh ok
06:42:05 <augur> 4 portals
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09:41:41 <cheater> hello sweethearts
09:43:06 <cheater> pikhq: how do you get 4 portals?
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10:57:20 <oerjan> <catseye> @tell oerjan we have a note-taker bot now.
10:57:20 <storkbot> oerjan: catseye told me to tell you: we have a note-taker bot now.
10:57:26 <oerjan> you don't say.
11:03:38 <oerjan> @tell catseye you don't say.
11:03:39 <storkbot> oerjan: Consider it noted.
11:23:11 <Vorpal> @help
11:23:14 <Vorpal> hm
11:23:17 <Vorpal> @source
11:23:53 <oerjan> @self_destroy
11:24:40 <oerjan> @tell catseye Choosing the same prefix and command as lambdabot may not be such a good idea.
11:24:40 <storkbot> oerjan: Consider it noted.
11:27:03 <Vorpal> @tell ' -- DROP TABLE notes;
11:27:03 <storkbot> Vorpal: Consider it noted.
11:27:07 <Vorpal> heh
11:27:12 <Vorpal> well unlikely to work
11:27:19 <Vorpal> well,*
11:27:28 <Vorpal> err
11:27:33 <Vorpal> @tell ' DROP TABLE notes; --
11:27:34 <storkbot> Vorpal: Consider it noted.
11:27:37 <Vorpal> or something
11:27:46 <Vorpal> I'm no good at sql
11:27:52 <Vorpal> meh, missed a ;
11:27:54 <Vorpal> *shrug*
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15:18:22 <elliott> 17:33:18 <catseye> ... "in spite of attempts to make it better, it's good"?
15:18:22 <storkbot> elliott: catseye told me to tell you: we have a note-taker bot now.
15:18:24 <elliott> :D
15:18:37 <elliott> storkbot: irritating.
15:19:41 <elliott> @tell catseye test1
15:19:41 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:42 <elliott> @tell catseye test2
15:19:42 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:42 <elliott> @tell catseye test3
15:19:42 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:43 <elliott> @tell catseye test4
15:19:43 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:44 <elliott> @tell catseye test5
15:19:44 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:44 <elliott> @tell catseye test6
15:19:45 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:45 <elliott> @tell catseye test7
15:19:45 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:46 <elliott> @tell catseye test8
15:19:46 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:47 <elliott> @tell catseye test9
15:19:48 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:49 <elliott> @tell catseye test10
15:19:49 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:51 <elliott> @tell catseye test11
15:19:51 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:53 <elliott> @tell catseye test12
15:19:53 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:55 <elliott> @tell catseye test13
15:19:55 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:57 <elliott> @tell catseye test14
15:19:57 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:19:59 <elliott> @tell catseye test15
15:19:59 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:20:01 <elliott> @tell catseye test16
15:20:01 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:20:03 <elliott> @tell catseye test17
15:20:03 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:20:05 <elliott> @tell catseye test18
15:20:05 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:20:07 <elliott> @tell catseye test19
15:20:07 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:20:09 <elliott> @tell catseye test20
15:20:09 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
15:20:11 <elliott> ok i'm done :D
15:20:29 <elliott> 19:50:08 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20W_R-wWFA8
15:20:29 <elliott> This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
15:20:31 <elliott> BUT CHANNEL 4 IS BRITISH
15:20:52 <elliott> 20:09:17 <catseye> er... so I just compiled my first non-trivial Go program. (well, it's 'cat', so whether it is trivial or not is arguable.)
15:20:52 <elliott> 20:09:50 <catseye> The executable size is a svelte 475K.
15:20:52 <elliott> 20:09:55 <catseye> *after* stripping.
15:20:56 <elliott> Go links statically.
15:21:02 <elliott> catseye: Note that that program requires no libraries to function.
15:21:37 <elliott> 20:23:19 <Mathnerd314> catseye: Go sucked even before it had no windows port
15:21:40 <elliott> no windows port is a feature
15:21:50 <elliott> catseye: go is a decent language, just takes some getting used to
15:21:53 <elliott> go code is *very* nice
15:24:52 <pikhq> catseye: Haskell's cat is similar, because up until very recently it only ever statically linked against Haskell libs.
15:26:27 <pikhq> (now, it defaults to that and can dynamically link — but Cabal doesn't quite work with it right yet)
15:29:43 <elliott> pikhq: What's the opposite of progress?
15:29:47 <elliott> Answer: Amateurgress!
15:29:53 <elliott> GHC is amateurgressing.
15:30:02 <cheater> hello elliott
15:30:07 <cheater> how are things?
15:30:34 <cheater> i must say my favorite language right now is python
15:30:42 <cheater> and i wish haskell had its elegance
15:30:48 <cheater> it's just so nice to write in
15:31:18 <cheater> pikhq: why is haskell code so unelegant?
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15:38:28 <pikhq> cheater: It... Isn't.
15:38:37 <pikhq> cheater: That's just evidence you suck.
15:39:58 <cheater> bah
15:40:03 <cheater> undefined indent structures ftl
15:41:11 <pikhq> ... ?
15:41:41 <pikhq> Seriously, I have almost never had problems Haskell indentation.
15:42:01 <pikhq> (the if/then/else block in do notation makes no sense. That has given me some trouble. Thankfull, Haskell 2010 fixes that.)
15:42:26 <pikhq> Thankfully, even.
15:43:03 <pikhq> Anyways, you suck and you should be ashamed of yourself.
15:45:50 <Vorpal> hm almost have ipsec working in transport mode with X.509 certificates (and a local CA). Everything works except that the keying daemon fails to find the CA certificate (so the whole thing works if I disable verification of the cert, but that isn't a very good idea obviously)
15:48:27 <elliott> pikhq: WITH BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS
15:48:36 <elliott> pikhq: Like Freenet but more liek BITTORRENT AWESOMENET
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16:00:03 <elliott> http://xkcd.com/806/ is almost funny.
16:00:08 <elliott> Doesn't have a punchline -- but.
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16:02:24 <elliott> pikhq: http://i.imgur.com/5OFUT.jpg WHERE'S YOUR JESUS NOW
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16:18:18 <elliott> hi ais523
16:18:37 <ais523> hi
16:18:37 <storkbot> ais523: catseye told me to tell you: we have a note-taker bot now.
16:18:49 <ais523> ah, interesting
16:18:56 <ais523> and I think I can guess which bot it is
16:19:23 <cheater> hi ais523
16:19:25 <elliott> ais523: catseye also has 20 messages waiting for him when he next speaks.
16:19:38 <elliott> Unlimited ability to make a bot send a bunch of messages at once: Excellent idea!
16:19:41 <ais523> could lead to quite some flood
16:19:58 <ais523> what's the syntax to send a message?
16:20:03 <elliott> Yes, well, don't you think it's worth it so that he hears that test1, test2, test3, test4, test5,
16:20:08 <elliott> ais523: @tell person message
16:20:24 <ais523> @tell storkbot can you send messages to yourself?
16:20:24 <storkbot> ais523: Consider it noted.
16:20:36 <elliott> @tell fungot fungot
16:20:37 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
16:20:37 <fungot> elliott: i just won't touch his code :) just translate what i said. must not have been a challenge to the reader
16:20:37 <storkbot> fungot: elliott told me to tell you: fungot
16:20:38 <fungot> storkbot: you could just do? http://schemecookbook.org/ cookbook/ fnord what's up? it's been like this since 2002 and is the only thing
16:20:50 <elliott> hmm
16:20:51 <elliott> @tell fungot fungot
16:20:51 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
16:20:52 <elliott> @tell fungot fungot
16:20:52 <fungot> elliott: numedia fnord at interweb address fnord i think
16:20:52 <storkbot> elliott: Consider it noted.
16:20:52 <storkbot> fungot: elliott told me to tell you: fungot
16:20:52 <fungot> elliott: you can't list out any advantages of the python fnord
16:20:52 <storkbot> fungot: elliott told me to tell you: fungot
16:20:52 <fungot> storkbot: whoa! hydrogen fuel cell rc car! bitchin'! not much more to do with it
16:20:53 <fungot> storkbot: its been said that dribble is what editors of the x3j13 ansi standard for common lisp do after spending countless hours debating the semantic details of functions like boole and read-char-no-hang.
16:21:31 <ais523> are we going to have to start blacklisting the bots from each other again?
16:21:35 <elliott> fungot already does
16:21:36 <fungot> elliott: i can't " darcs pull url" says: libcurl: http error ( 404?). i didn't write this with emacs, since all of the values
16:21:42 <elliott> hmm
16:21:43 <elliott> `run echo '!echo @tell fungot fungot'
16:21:43 <fungot> elliott: and i have to go and stay there :d i'm used to it
16:21:49 <elliott> HackEgo?
16:21:54 <elliott> Haack-eeegooooo
16:21:59 <ais523> elliott: HackEgo tends to hang for about 2 minutes the first time you use it in a while
16:22:04 <elliott> ais523: wow.
16:22:07 <elliott> ais523: but i used it yesterday :P
16:22:09 <ais523> I have no idea why
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16:23:15 <HackEgo> !echo @tell fungot fungot
16:23:23 <elliott> C'mon, EgoBot! You can do it!
16:23:24 <elliott> oh wait
16:23:25 <elliott> !echo
16:23:33 <elliott> `run echo '!sh echo @tell fungot fungot'
16:23:33 <fungot> elliott: some schemes have serialization built-in. not very good
16:23:40 <elliott> ais523: and the second time...
16:23:52 <ais523> second time it's normally faster than that
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16:23:59 <ais523> although I suppose that isn't particularly hard
16:24:03 <Vorpal> yay works now
16:24:14 <Vorpal> (of course, it is fairly pointless in practise)
16:24:28 <HackEgo> !sh echo @tell fungot fungot
16:24:43 <elliott> ais523: let's see if EgoBot wakes up
16:24:52 <Vorpal> (oh, for those who joined after the line I referred to: "<Vorpal> hm almost have ipsec working in transport mode with X.509 certificates (and a local CA). Everything works except that the keying daemon fails to find the CA certificate (so the whole thing works if I disable verification of the cert, but that isn't a very good idea obviously)")
16:24:52 <fizzie> fungot's ignore-list doesn't have storky (yet), though.
16:24:53 <fungot> fizzie: under winxp i ususally have no problems compiling, e.g.
16:24:57 <ais523> !help
16:25:04 <elliott> fizzie: Let me at least get one botspam working first :P
16:25:13 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
16:25:37 <elliott> unfortunately, none of the bots can output multiple lines
16:25:40 <elliott> making a botloop impossible
16:25:46 <elliott> with storkbot
16:26:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I think you fail at "<HackEgo> !sh echo @tell fungot fungot" ;)
16:26:03 <fungot> Vorpal: it was a real cereal. about fainted from laughing/ exhaling might be hc enough.
16:26:17 <elliott> Vorpal: EgoBot must ignore HackEgo
16:26:32 <elliott> a botloop would be EgoBot or HackEgo telling storkbot to tell fungot about fungot forever, making fungot spam, making storkbot ping fungot, making fungot babble, and then HackEgo or EgoBot would do it again
16:26:32 <fungot> elliott: when you tweak on it,
16:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, you *intended* that?
16:26:35 <Vorpal> right
16:26:50 <Vorpal> storkbot, hi
16:26:58 <ais523> elliott: why would HackEgo or EgoBot do it again?
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16:27:02 <Vorpal> storkbot: hi
16:27:03 <Vorpal> well
16:27:04 <elliott> HE WILL NEVER KNOW
16:27:08 <elliott> Vorpal: it only does @tell
16:27:13 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:14 <fungot> elliott: riastradh will surely have more to tell atm. it's a perfect tool for some things
16:27:16 <HackEgo> @tell fungot fungot
16:27:16 <storkbot> HackEgo: Consider it noted.
16:27:26 <elliott> fizzie: DAMN YOU
16:27:31 <elliott> wait i have an idea
16:27:32 <elliott> HOLD UP
16:27:37 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:37 <fungot> elliott: intelligent people.
16:27:37 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:27:38 <fungot> storkbot: you take a look at other stuff :) forthers would say that i do
16:27:38 <HackEgo> @tell fungot fungot
16:27:38 <storkbot> HackEgo: Consider it noted.
16:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, right. And getting fungot to say anything starting with @ or such seems hard
16:27:41 <fungot> Vorpal: well size and features go hand in hand, i have
16:27:42 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:27:42 <fungot> storkbot: that's something i'd like to be able to mount it and whatnot. would love a poster to hang on alt.suicide.bus.stop or alt.suicide.holiday these days.
16:27:44 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:44 <fungot> elliott: ( running it on windows myself), and code won't be open doesn't make his old code any worse
16:27:45 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:45 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:45 <fungot> elliott: what does a faded, black white photo of some random mailing list? they are linear
16:27:45 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:45 <elliott> `run echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:27:45 <fungot> elliott: there has to be all the rage in miami right now.
16:27:45 <fungot> elliott: i'm only speculating about what technique andre van tonder
16:27:47 <elliott> okay
16:27:47 <elliott> it's over now
16:27:50 <HackEgo> @tell fungot fungot
16:27:50 <storkbot> HackEgo: Consider it noted.
16:28:01 <elliott> okay it...
16:28:04 <Vorpal> um
16:28:04 <elliott> it should be doing that a lot more :D
16:28:06 <HackEgo> @tell fungot fungot
16:28:07 <storkbot> HackEgo: Consider it noted.
16:28:07 <HackEgo> @tell fungot fungot
16:28:07 <HackEgo> @tell fungot fungot
16:28:07 <HackEgo> @tell fungot fungot
16:28:07 <storkbot> HackEgo: Consider it noted.
16:28:07 <storkbot> HackEgo: Consider it noted.
16:28:07 <storkbot> HackEgo: Consider it noted.
16:28:11 <Vorpal> ....
16:28:12 <elliott> oh joy
16:28:16 <Vorpal> fungot, .
16:28:16 <fungot> Vorpal: you can't plant spiders, duh!
16:28:16 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:28:16 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:28:16 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:28:16 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:28:16 <storkbot> fungot: HackEgo told me to tell you: fungot
16:28:16 <fungot> storkbot: and i remembered it doing more than just reversal. i guess
16:28:16 <fungot> storkbot: i'm drawing a blank
16:28:17 <fungot> storkbot: that's not necessarily what you want is broken and _it's_ trying to apply the object ( in the system. i am confused
16:28:17 <fungot> storkbot: if you do more customization without making you modify the min parameter and not the time to wait for weeks and usually didn't have any cases that required a mop solution ( or that i guess that's the point
16:28:19 <elliott> fungot
16:28:20 <fungot> elliott: the distribution ships with a proprietary dialer... i really need a speed increment, having done all the asm, c, d
16:28:22 <elliott> WOOP WOOP
16:28:24 <Vorpal> annoying
16:28:28 <elliott> fizzie: you can ignore storkbot now
16:28:32 <elliott> Vorpal: botspam is a channel tradition
16:28:34 <Vorpal> fungot, hm
16:28:34 <fungot> Vorpal: the idea behind java and .net?!
16:28:39 <Vorpal> elliott, true
16:28:43 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> Vorpal: you can't plant spiders, duh!
16:28:43 <fungot> elliott: c programmers rarely use s-exps... it will use, once i figured how to run that script except me.
16:28:55 <Vorpal> elliott, me calling it annoying is also a tradition by now ;P
16:28:56 <HackEgo> 241|<fungot> Vorpal: you can't plant spiders, duh!
16:29:02 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|storkbot)!
16:29:02 <fungot> OK.
16:29:08 <fizzie> I really should make that a persistent thing.
16:29:19 <elliott> fizzie: I propose making fungot ignore .*
16:29:20 <fungot> elliott: i guess, symbols.
16:29:22 <elliott> TOTAL SECURITY
16:29:22 <fizzie> Also keeping toBogE there is a matter of tradition. :p
16:29:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, who owned toBogE?
16:29:44 <elliott> annoying immibis
16:29:48 <Vorpal> hm
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16:30:15 <elliott> ais523: you missed botspam
16:30:20 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: why would HackEgo or EgoBot do it again?
16:30:20 <elliott> * ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:30:29 <elliott> because, if they could say multiple lines, as would be required by this,
16:30:32 <elliott> you'd just put it in a while loop
16:30:40 <Vorpal> ipsec sure is fun
16:30:40 <ais523> oh, I see
16:30:43 <elliott> to echo '@tell fungot fungot'
16:30:43 <fungot> elliott: i have something
16:30:44 <elliott> or
16:30:45 <elliott> more funly
16:30:49 <ais523> that wouldn't be a botloop, though
16:30:56 <ais523> that would be one bot in a loop, setting the others off in sequence
16:30:59 <elliott> to have HackEgo say '!sh echo @tell fungot fungot'
16:30:59 <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
16:31:02 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it would be glorious
16:31:21 <ais523> also, that last fungot comment is great
16:31:21 <fungot> ais523: sorry for my absence.
16:31:22 <elliott> HackEgo would talk, fungot would talk, EgoBot would talk, fungot would talk, storkbot would talk, fungot would talk, and it'd all start over again
16:31:23 <fungot> elliott: heh... i guess i should turn it i expected it. you might get the same
16:31:25 <elliott> all out of order
16:31:30 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
16:31:30 <fungot> elliott: no exploding ants in this version!
16:31:32 <elliott> fungot quotes are always good
16:31:33 <fungot> elliott: they want to delay it quite a lot
16:31:57 <HackEgo> 242|<fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
16:33:55 <elliott> `quote
16:33:57 <HackEgo> 211|<oklopol> pigeons are very smart. all the known ways to show a language is not regular are based on pigeons.
16:34:12 <elliott> ais523: have you ever read the acknowledgement in the scsh manual?
16:34:17 <elliott> it's rather amusing (and semi-famous)
16:34:20 <ais523> I don't know what scsh is
16:34:26 <ais523> although I'm guessing a shell from the name
16:34:28 <elliott> ais523: that doesn't even matter
16:34:28 <elliott> no
16:34:34 <elliott> it's Olin Shivers' Scheme extension that adds a bunch of posix stuff
16:34:39 <elliott> but that has nothing to do with it
16:34:39 <ais523> ah
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16:34:55 <elliott> http://www.scsh.net/docu/html/man.html <-- the acknowledgements page
16:34:58 <ais523> it should be illegal to end a program name with sh if it isn't actually a shell
16:35:00 <ais523> and vice versa
16:35:01 <elliott> (I think clog is working, if you acre)
16:35:11 <elliott> ais523: Punishable by hanging!
16:35:15 <ais523> that way, we could sue microsoft for giving cmd an incorrect name
16:36:00 <ais523> that's quite an acknowledgements page
16:36:21 <ais523> (and he's incorrect that nobody would read it; a significant minority of people read manuals from front to back, including the useless metadata like that)
16:37:16 <elliott> ais523: Significant minority = {ais523}
16:37:17 <cheater> hey, he misspelled Amerika
16:37:20 <cheater> it's Amerikkka
16:37:52 <elliott> I love how he says he did it all by myself only centimetres after the list of authors.
16:38:09 <cheater> which cambridge is that?
16:38:22 <cheater> is that mit cambridge or cambridge cambridge?
16:38:47 <cheater> Last modified: Monday, May 8th, 2006 3:55:48pm MET-1MST-2,M3.5.0,M10.5.0
16:39:01 <cheater> oh right, america
16:39:04 * cheater just woke up
16:39:30 <cheater> you know, a fully paid 5 pm nap at work is something i have been aiming for very long in my career
16:39:31 <elliott> ais523: scsh does have a shell in it, though
16:39:33 <elliott> well
16:39:34 <elliott> "A shell language, modeled using quasi-quotation."
16:39:50 <cheater> Scsh is an open-source Unix shell embedded within Scheme, running on all major Unix platforms including AIX, Cygwin, Linux, FreeBSD, GNU Hurd, HP-UX, Irix, Mac OS X, Solaris, and some others.
16:39:56 <cheater> Scsh is an open-source Unix shell
16:40:06 <elliott> (scsh = Scheme + list/character/string stuff + actually-regular expressions not using regexp syntax (s-exp dsl) + networking + awk-like stuff + ptys + shell of sorts)
16:40:07 <cheater> i'm missing something
16:41:02 -!- ais523 has left (?).
16:41:31 <cheater> lol
16:41:36 <cheater> <3 that quitmsg
16:41:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:41:47 <elliott> wb ais523
16:41:51 <cheater> ais523: nice quitmsg!!
16:41:56 <ais523> 'twas a misclick
16:41:57 <elliott> misclick? nothing happened when you were away
16:42:03 <elliott> ais523: stop violating causality
16:42:05 <ais523> also, what is my quit message on here? I keep forgetting
16:42:06 <cheater> sure has!
16:42:08 <elliott> <fungot> fizzie: it makes demons fly out of my window, washing the windows api
16:42:09 <fungot> elliott: so i figure i'll only run it up to just ( walk-collection ( lambda ( x y)
16:42:09 <cheater> this has happened:
16:42:10 <elliott> that
16:42:11 <cheater> 17:41 < cheater> lol
16:42:12 <cheater> 17:41 < cheater> <3 that quitmsg
16:42:12 <ais523> ah, that one
16:42:13 <elliott> (byte-for-byte)
16:42:16 <ais523> genuine fungot quote, ofc
16:42:16 <elliott> mine is
16:42:17 <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
16:42:18 -!- elliott has left (?).
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16:42:26 <elliott> which i rather like
16:42:31 <ais523> oh, that's a fungot quote?
16:42:32 <fungot> ais523: if you managed to get .fi connections a really, really don't know any such people gobs of dough if i use the server vm works differently than it used to be
16:42:41 <elliott> ais523: nope, just my /part and /quit message
16:42:47 <elliott> it's aaaall my own invention
16:42:51 <elliott> all one additional word of it
16:43:14 <cheater> fungot, say something smart
16:43:14 <fungot> cheater: yes, the package is loaded, that's it
16:43:25 <cheater> surprisingly that has worked
16:43:34 <elliott> <fungot> ais523: if you managed to get .fi connections a really, really don't know any such people gobs of dough if i use the server vm works differently than it used to be
16:43:34 <fungot> elliott: what're you busy with? otherwise they are not an official term? :)
16:43:37 <elliott> thought fizzie said this for a second
16:43:44 <elliott> wasted about ten seconds trying to parse it
16:43:51 <cheater> haha
16:43:55 <cheater> fungot is creepy like that
16:43:56 <fungot> cheater: i know that
16:43:59 <elliott> 08:42:17 <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
16:43:59 <fungot> elliott: ( ( ( call-with-current-continuation call-with-current-continuation)) does not move you up the hierarchy until you get the idea
16:44:00 <elliott> :DDDD
16:44:00 <cheater> i know you do, fungot
16:44:01 <fungot> cheater: useful things, towels and such mostly for school, i'll continue debugging egobot later _o
16:44:07 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
16:44:07 <fungot> elliott: what if it was doable with lexical scoping? i certainly haven't thought about that as well.
16:44:12 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: ( ( ( call-with-current-continuation call-with-current-continuation)) does not move you up the hierarchy until you get the idea
16:44:13 <fungot> elliott: aha. we're talking about a real case
16:44:14 <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
16:44:26 <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> elliott: ( ( ( call-with-current-continuation call-with-current-continuation)) does not move you up the hierarchy until you get the idea
16:44:55 <elliott> ais523: by "mine is" I meant "my quit message is:"
16:44:58 <elliott> demonstrated by my /part
16:45:03 <elliott> not "my quit message is [also a fungot quote]"
16:45:04 <fungot> elliott: who art the beginning of the next line in still more lines?
16:45:16 <cheater> fungot: was that shakespeare?
16:45:16 <fungot> cheater: the unique tag is generated using genetic algorithms)? hehe. how do you hold it against the skin and it can
16:45:20 <ais523> elliott: ah, OK
16:45:29 <cheater> fungot: i don't know.
16:45:30 <fungot> cheater: ok, tell me where that matkakortti issue is discussed?) very similar to polish ones. like fnord is a good example
16:45:44 <cheater> fungot: fnord indeed.
16:45:45 <fungot> cheater: even better: submit the whole hyperspec as a srfi? ( asking for no special reason. i rang and rang the doorbell but no one came. fortunately some stranger noticed my efforts and borrowed me a cell phone as a portable error procedure: ( write obj port)
16:45:50 * elliott decides that the font Ubuntu Sans most reminds him of is Trebuchet MS.
16:45:56 <elliott> Except more... interfacey.
16:45:57 <cheater> fungot: ok
16:45:57 <fungot> cheater: enjoy your crow. that
16:46:07 <cheater> elliott: interfacey?
16:48:19 <elliott> http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/geotica.html new exljbris typeface
16:49:17 <cheater> speaking of exlibris, i should have one made
16:49:24 <cheater> i've got like 300 maths books that need to be stamped
16:50:46 <cheater> time to go check out the tom oberheim sem
16:50:57 <cheater> it's going to be an amazing trip into synthesizer history!
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17:11:02 <pikhq> elliott: All broadcast systems should be replaced with IP multicast.
17:11:31 <elliott> pikhq: I repeat what I said about DHT :P
17:11:32 <pikhq> Radio & OTA TV? Fuck that, we're using the entire radio spectrum for Internet. Satellite? Internet. Cable? Internet.
17:11:40 <elliott> pikhq: And then we can INTEGRATE IT WITH MULTICAST
17:11:46 <pikhq> Yes, the entire radio spectrum.
17:11:57 -!- antivigilante has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
17:11:58 <elliott> Including LIGHT?!?!?11212p[
17:12:00 <elliott> {}
17:12:02 <elliott> @
17:12:38 <pikhq> elliott: The entire spectrum practical for data transmission.
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17:14:20 <elliott> pikhq: http://iginomarini.com/fell/the-revival-fonts/ These typefaces are amazingly beautiful and the digitised revivals are released in OpenType with the SIL Open Font License.
17:14:57 <elliott> pikhq: *Somehow,* it even works on the web: http://joel.thegoodmanblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/fellgreatprimer.png
17:15:04 <elliott> (and http://joel.thegoodmanblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/fellenglish.png)
17:16:02 <pikhq> elliott: The gorgeousity!
17:16:26 <elliott> pikhq: Scroll down to the bottom of http://iginomarini.com/fell/wp-content/uploads/firefoxdaggett.jpg after seeing the picture to see it accurately reproduce a 1700s text, including beautiful long s.
17:16:38 <elliott> pikhq: "Reſidence" in particular looks awesome.
17:17:48 <pikhq> elliott: *That* is the font that The Time Machine should be typeset with.
17:18:28 <elliott> pikhq: I actually thought that. But, I'm not so sure: It seems too florid, somehow; The Time Machine is quite dry.
17:18:34 <elliott> But it is the right sort of period of type...
17:18:43 <elliott> pikhq: It's a one- or two-liner in XeLaTeX to try it out, so...
17:18:54 <elliott> pikhq: I just wish XeLaTeX had all the microtype features. That'd be perfect.
17:19:12 <elliott> I wonder if their new optical margin support is any good.
17:19:13 <pikhq> elliott: It's planned, just not in yet.
17:19:26 <elliott> Optical margins are in, iirc.
17:20:27 <pikhq> Good; that's probably the most important.
17:20:44 <elliott> You were the one who told me they had it :P
17:20:51 <pikhq> Oh, right. :P
17:21:00 <ais523> what are optical margins?
17:21:27 <elliott> ais523: the left and right margins of a justified block of text are subtly adjusted so they are not exactly equal
17:21:37 <elliott> to account for the unequal appearance of various glyphs
17:21:44 <ais523> oh, I see
17:21:44 <elliott> this makes margins look straighter to the human eye
17:21:52 <elliott> since different glyphs may have more prominence to the left/right or not
17:21:54 <ais523> so a line ending with d is slightly shorter than a line ending with o
17:22:02 <elliott> ais523: yep
17:22:05 <ais523> that makes sense
17:22:08 <elliott> although it's more useful for the left margins, I think
17:22:12 <elliott> but yeah, it improves readability
17:22:19 <elliott> since the eye can always go to the "exact same place"
17:22:23 <elliott> of course, it's very minor, but still...
17:22:25 <elliott> looks pretty!
17:22:30 <pikhq> elliott: It happens to make the line-breaking work better.
17:22:36 <elliott> That too.
17:22:49 <ais523> I would have thought the fovea, despite being small, is large enough that if there was sufficient light, that would work just fine
17:22:53 <pikhq> Though the variable character spacing helps with that.
17:23:01 <ais523> with either margin situation
17:23:07 <pikhq> Erm, helps much more.
17:23:29 <elliott> hmm: what's next in this sequence: annually, biannually, quarterly, ?
17:23:45 <elliott> ais523: true, it's more psychological
17:23:53 <elliott> or probably entirely psychological
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17:25:02 <catseye> light is impractical for data transmission
17:25:02 <storkbot> catseye: oerjan told me to tell you: you don't say.
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: oerjan told me to tell you: Choosing the same prefix and command as lambdabot may not be such a good idea.
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test1
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test2
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test3
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test4
17:25:03 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test5
17:25:04 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test6
17:25:04 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test7
17:25:05 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test8
17:25:05 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test9
17:25:06 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test10
17:25:06 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test11
17:25:07 <storkbot> catseye: elliott told me to tell you: test12
17:25:14 <elliott> there were 20 of those!
17:25:18 <elliott> i demand a refund
17:25:24 <ais523> elliott: storkbot's probably been fakelagged or something
17:25:27 <ais523> or just given up
17:25:31 -!- antivigilante has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:25:42 <catseye> --- :holmes.freenode.net NOTICE storkbot :*** Message to #esoteric throttled due to flooding
17:25:57 <elliott> :D
17:26:06 <catseye> it did spew out all 20
17:28:51 * pikhq is actually looking forward to Firefox 4.
17:28:55 <elliott> pikhq: What the world needs: an olde-style monospace font.
17:29:02 <pikhq> It appears to be fixing a lot of the suck in Firefox.
17:29:03 <elliott> Fell Monospaced.
17:29:15 <elliott> pikhq: firefox 4 is also copying the irrelevant part of the chrome interface
17:29:21 <elliott> because apparently they're idiots
17:29:25 <pikhq> elliott: Which bit?
17:29:33 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.teknobites.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/firefox4-designs.png
17:29:44 <elliott> pikhq: The "in the window chrome bit", while failing to copy the "tab bar as title bar" thing.
17:29:51 <elliott> They just put things in the window chrome. For... no reason.
17:30:12 <ais523> tab bar as title bar annoys me
17:30:16 <pikhq> elliott: The tab bar as title bar is now the default for Firefox 4.
17:30:20 <ais523> because it no longer works like a title bar is supposed to
17:30:29 <elliott> pikhq: Now it looks like this: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/17/2009/12/500x_firefox_4_look.jpg
17:30:36 <elliott> pikhq: Which is just awkward-looking.
17:30:38 <pikhq> Erm, wait, no. It's just below the title bar.
17:30:49 <elliott> Other crazy ideas: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/17/2009/12/500x_firefox_buttons.jpg
17:31:01 <pikhq> *Fortunately*, that's configurable.
17:31:35 <pikhq> That is, you can at least make it look like a "normal" tabbed interface. Which is much less awkward.
17:31:38 <elliott> pikhq: I cannot comprehend why Mozilla doesn't just fire every UI designer apart from Aza Raskin.
17:31:48 <pikhq> And the "things in the window chrome" bit is just on Windows 7 & Vista.
17:32:13 <pikhq> Still, their UI designers suck, and the saving grace is that most of the suck can be tweaked away.
17:32:23 <elliott> i just use chrome, i never have to think about it
17:32:27 <elliott> it's barely even a program :P
17:32:38 <elliott> pikhq: Nonono, Aza Raskin is awesome to the max
17:32:43 <elliott> He just gets lumped in with stoopid people :(
17:32:55 <pikhq> Firefox 4 should be actually support OpenType features.
17:33:17 <elliott> pikhq: One thing that's been holding Firefox back for god knows how long: Skins.
17:33:19 <elliott> Stupidest. Idea. Ever.
17:33:27 <pikhq> elliott: It's common on Windows.
17:33:30 <elliott> (Yet how many thousands of people probably started using Firefox because of them? Blergh.)
17:33:35 <elliott> pikhq: It's also retarded.
17:33:39 <elliott> Anyway, it was *not* common.
17:33:45 <pikhq> And they have the nerve to accuse *Linux* developers of inconsistency.
17:33:50 <elliott> Winamp did it, and nothing else.
17:33:54 <elliott> Then they added it to Mozilla.
17:33:58 <elliott> Now everything does it because of them.
17:34:12 <ais523> elliott: Windows Media Player did skins since XP
17:34:20 <elliott> ais523: Mozilla predates XP
17:34:24 <elliott> (Mozilla is 1998)
17:34:31 <ais523> ah, I see
17:34:36 <pikhq> And IE had skins since IE 4. Honest-to-god.
17:34:42 <elliott> pikhq: Yeaah, but... nobody used them.
17:34:49 <pikhq> BESIDE THE POINT
17:35:29 <pikhq> The habit of making a different, distinct set of widgets for each app has been in the Windows dev culture for ages.
17:35:43 <pikhq> Office started it, the bastards.
17:36:54 <catseye> it's a form of... what's the word
17:36:58 <elliott> pikhq: I want to publish something in a Fell typeface now.
17:37:01 <elliott> catseye: Idiocy?
17:37:46 <pikhq> I think the only programs on Linux that have the nerve to design their *own widget schemes* are imports from Windows.
17:38:03 <catseye> lock-in
17:38:16 <pikhq> catseye: Except it doesn't do that at all.
17:38:23 <pikhq> catseye: It just makes things look different.
17:38:50 <elliott> [[Whenever a programmer thinks, "Hey, skins, what a cool idea", their computer's speakers should create some sort of cock-shaped soundwave and plunge it repeatedly through their skulls.]]
17:38:51 <elliott> --Makali
17:38:52 <pikhq> Lessee... Chrome, Mozilla, Firefox, Opera, Java (good GOD why can't they just make Swing use GTK as a backend)...
17:38:56 <catseye> people are reluctant to leave what they have gotten used to. granted it's more psychology than actual usability.
17:38:56 <elliott> ("I am fully in support of this proposed audio-cock technology." --jwz, in response)
17:39:10 <pikhq> Oh, and things that predate the duopoly of GTK and Qt.
17:39:22 <elliott> pikhq: and things that use crazy toolkits because
17:39:27 <elliott> (people like me!)
17:39:31 <elliott> pikhq: also, chrome uses gtk
17:39:39 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, and it has its own widgets.
17:39:45 <elliott> pikhq: well no
17:39:48 <elliott> pikhq: it has gtk widgets styled according to its whims :)
17:40:00 <elliott> ...with an appropriate skin it looks and acts entirely native though so *shrug*
17:40:00 <pikhq> No, it has its own widgets distinct from the GTK theme.
17:40:07 <elliott> rubbish default look worked around
17:40:08 -!- elliott has left (?).
17:40:11 -!- elliott has joined.
17:40:14 <pikhq> Is there a Grey Mist skin?
17:40:19 <elliott> pikhq: but the *behaviour* is gtk's
17:40:25 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Lessee... Chrome, Mozilla, Firefox, Opera, Java (good GOD why can't they just make Swing use GTK as a backend)... <--- firefox? it looks native to me here?
17:40:26 <pikhq> Well, true.
17:40:28 <elliott> pikhq: grey mist skin: tell it to use WM title bars + click "Use GTK theme"
17:40:32 <elliott> Vorpal: XUL
17:40:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: It apes the GTK theme.
17:40:41 <elliott> *GTK+
17:40:41 <pikhq> elliott: Insufficient.
17:40:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah
17:40:48 <pikhq> elliott: It still uses a distinct widget set.
17:40:55 <elliott> pikhq: whine whine i can't care any more
17:41:00 <pikhq> That damned scrollbar is NOT Grey Mist.
17:41:03 <catseye> so many gratuitous features to add! so little time!
17:41:09 <elliott> pikhq: there are skins for the scrollbar :P
17:41:13 <elliott> it's not the perfect situation but ehh
17:41:15 <elliott> it's a nice browser
17:41:25 <pikhq> Yes, but is there one that makes it use the actual GTK widgets?
17:42:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm, looks the same as clearlooks to me
17:42:03 -!- kiwigrin has joined.
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17:42:08 <Vorpal> I guess it is better at that theme
17:42:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's actually using the Android widget set.
17:42:50 <fizzie> Dillo does native GTK widgets for you. :p
17:42:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, is firefox?
17:42:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, wtf
17:43:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, Chrome does.
17:43:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh I was talking about firefox
17:43:29 <Vorpal> bbl
17:43:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Firefox is using XUL for the interface, and the default theme *happens* to do horrible things to GTK to get out the glyphs for the native widgets.
17:44:00 <elliott> 78
17:44:02 <elliott> whoops
17:44:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, it works well for me.
17:45:19 <catseye> in condord with foo
17:45:26 <catseye> *conquered
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17:45:54 <fizzie> catseye: Re storkie, I was hoping for an excess-flood thanks to elliott times 20.
17:46:55 <catseye> elliott: no continuations in pixley+message_passing+modules; send creates no new bindings, recv and spawn do, but have let-based semantics to expose them to the subexpression. (Also, language needs a name.)
17:47:23 <elliott> catseye: Scheme 0.0001
17:47:50 <catseye> fizzie: I suppose I would have to insert some throttling code, if I were to take it seriously.
17:48:04 <catseye> elliott: Scheme from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
17:50:34 <catseye> Also, why does weechat-curses not understand 'home' and 'end'? Distracting
17:50:59 <catseye> All IRC clients are not quite what you want -- it's a law or something.
17:56:54 <elliott> catseye: What's a good language?
17:57:47 <catseye> >:}
17:57:57 <catseye> elliott: I AM MAKING A CHART K
17:58:16 <elliott> cpGOODLANG
17:58:47 <catseye> elliott: Have you ever seen that "programming languages as cars" newsgroup ha-ha article?
17:58:54 <elliott> No.
17:58:55 <catseye> it's old
17:59:10 <catseye> i hosted an extended version of it on my site a loooong time ago
18:00:08 <catseye> http://sucs.org/~manic/humour/languages/progcars.htm
18:00:47 <catseye> I added entries for Java, ML, and Befunge, iirc
18:03:32 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, maybe I'll just set The Untitled Document in a Fell type.
18:04:14 <elliott> [[LISP - An electric car. It's simple but slow. Seat belts are not available.]]
18:04:19 <elliott> catseye: sometimes i never can quite understand the logic behind these
18:04:27 <elliott> [[FORTH - A go-cart.]]
18:04:28 <elliott> ???
18:04:36 <elliott> [[LOGO - A kiddie's replica of a Rolls Royce. Comes with a real engine and a working horn.]]
18:04:42 <elliott> so is Lisp an electric car or a rolls royce?
18:04:47 <elliott> an electric rolls royce that comes without seatbelts?
18:05:15 <elliott> pikhq: Although I'd need a monospaced version... which I just wished for.
18:07:06 <pikhq> elliott: Have you considered... Replacing everything everywhere? :D
18:07:14 <elliott> pikhq: Yes.
18:07:18 <elliott> pikhq: Now go design Fell Monospaced.
18:07:44 <pikhq> elliott: No. I need to design a non-crappy torrent file maker.
18:08:05 <pikhq> And then while I'm at it, a whole torrent client.
18:08:21 <pikhq> With blackjack! And hookers!
18:08:54 <Vorpal> hm the bank website goes all screwy if you open more than one tab.
18:10:39 <elliott> pikhq: Transmission is just fine :P
18:10:49 <elliott> pikhq: But you think it's suboptimal for initial DHT seeds?
18:10:55 <elliott> pikhq: Link me to random_data served by Deluge? :)
18:11:03 <pikhq> elliott: No. Deluge sucks worse.
18:11:09 <pikhq> elliott: It uses a whole CPU.
18:11:13 -!- augur has joined.
18:11:15 <elliott> pikhq: VUZE (no)
18:11:34 <pikhq> Transmission at least has a decent UI.
18:11:41 <pikhq> And doesn't *use a whole CPU*.
18:11:55 <Gregor> Only 2/3rds of a CPU
18:11:58 <pikhq> It just has some lacks in its protocol handling.
18:12:08 <pikhq> Gregor: Actually, it goes between idle and 2%.
18:12:24 <Gregor> OK, only 2/100ths. At least my numerator was right.
18:12:28 <pikhq> :P
18:13:03 <elliott> pikhq: Mmf, but I wanna see DHT working!
18:13:06 <elliott> Pick a third client :P
18:13:23 <elliott> pikhq: Here, try qBitTorrent.
18:13:25 <elliott> It's based on libtorrent.
18:13:30 <elliott> Fugly UI, but maybe it'll get DHT right!
18:13:56 <elliott> (Note: I like Transmission, I just wanna see this DHT thing work :P)
18:15:05 <pikhq> elliott: Trying.
18:15:25 <elliott> Or http://btg.berlios.de/
18:15:37 <elliott> Or http://code.google.com/p/linkage/
18:15:40 <elliott> I'm just listing libtorrent things here
18:15:49 <elliott> pikhq: You may have to create that session directory thing like rtorrent, right?
18:16:04 <pikhq> elliott: There's two different libtorrents.
18:16:20 <pikhq> elliott: rtorrent uses one, everyone else uses a different one.
18:16:23 <elliott> pikhq: I am referring to the rasterbar one.
18:16:34 <elliott> pikhq: Ah.
18:16:36 <pikhq> Which rtorrent doesn't use.
18:16:37 <elliott> pikhq: So stupid.
18:16:40 <elliott> Well, whatever.
18:16:44 <elliott> Rasterbar has a ton of features.
18:16:48 <elliott> So it should do DHT right.
18:17:05 <pikhq> Yuh.
18:17:19 <pikhq> It still lacks things like tracker exchange, though.
18:19:04 <elliott> "By the way all the ligatures and swash characters are directly accessible in the OpenType version. Historical forms are also accessible through the “hist” feature or as Stylistic Set."
18:19:10 <elliott> Fell-ate Types
18:19:28 -!- cal153 has joined.
18:20:00 <pikhq> elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:C3XSTFZIWGJFSEWX5NIXO3UKEJXWDSAV&dn=random_image
18:20:09 <elliott> pikhq: &dn= is a TOOL OF THE STATE
18:20:15 <elliott> pikhq: Also: SO CAPS
18:20:33 * elliott adds magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c3xstfziwgjfsewx5nixo3ukejxwdsav
18:21:02 <elliott> pikhq: Let's see if I can do this.
18:21:09 <pikhq> Mmkay.
18:21:11 <elliott> brb
18:21:29 <catseye> <elliott> an electric rolls royce that comes without seatbelts?
18:21:43 <catseye> partly it is a generational gap, partly they are just stupidcheesy.
18:22:10 <catseye> or maybe those are the same phenomenon. well, whatever.
18:22:28 <elliott> pikhq: Downloading.
18:22:33 <elliott> pikhq: 11.6 KiB/s but it worked.
18:22:53 <elliott> Gregor: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c3xstfziwgjfsewx5nixo3ukejxwdsav
18:22:54 <elliott> Gregor: ADD IT
18:22:55 <pikhq> \o/
18:23:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Or you
18:23:15 <Vorpal> elliott, me what?
18:23:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Add that magnet URI to your torrent client
18:23:28 <elliott> It is a bunch of /dev/random distributed entirely by DHT
18:23:30 <elliott> No trackers
18:23:32 <elliott> No IPs
18:23:35 <elliott> And it works.
18:23:39 <Vorpal> elliott, okay fun, but why
18:23:41 <elliott> pikhq: If someone else manages to download from me, I will be officially impressed and propose that we replace the internet with a DHT.
18:23:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Because IT IS AWESOME.
18:23:51 <elliott> Vorpal: If you get two peers, then that means *you managed to get me from pikhq*.
18:23:55 <elliott> Basically it is AWESOME.
18:24:00 <elliott> Start with nothing, get a random file pikhq *just made*.
18:24:05 <elliott> Vorpal: He didn't even post it anywhere.
18:24:07 <Vorpal> hm
18:24:11 <Vorpal> elliott, DHT?
18:24:12 <elliott> He puts it in his client, gives us a checksum, and *we can download it*.
18:24:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes.
18:24:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Add it and watch the awesome.
18:24:23 <elliott> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c3xstfziwgjfsewx5nixo3ukejxwdsav
18:24:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I see no where to open it in ktorrent
18:24:34 <Vorpal> it isn't a url
18:24:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
18:24:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Look for an "Add URL" link
18:24:38 <Vorpal> so open url seems wrong
18:24:41 <pikhq> IT IS A URL
18:24:42 <Gregor> magnet:/xt=purn:bitch:wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:24:42 <elliott> It will work.
18:24:44 <elliott> pikhq: It's a URN
18:24:47 <elliott> It doesn't locate anything
18:24:49 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, right.
18:24:50 <elliott> It names some data
18:24:51 <elliott> But whatever
18:24:53 <pikhq> It is a URI, though.
18:24:58 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed!
18:25:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Does it work?
18:25:05 <Vorpal> elliott, no
18:25:10 <elliott> Vorpal: It may take about 30 seconds at absolute worst to connect to pikhq.
18:25:16 <elliott> Vorpal: If it actually shows in the list, then just give it some time.
18:25:22 <Vorpal> elliott, it just waits there, not even showing the "select where to save the files" box
18:25:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Then ktorrent sucks.
18:25:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Get transmission-qt!
18:25:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it says "DHT: 500 nodes, 2 tasks" in the task bar though
18:25:54 <elliott> Vorpal: It fails at magnet URIs.
18:26:03 <elliott> Which are the important thing here.
18:26:13 <elliott> (The torrent file would include *marginally* more information, which defeats the whole fun.)
18:26:20 <elliott> pikhq: Dood, I lost you and now you're pack as a peer.
18:26:26 <elliott> Now I'm downloading from you.
18:26:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well, how could it list the "select files to download and where to save it" without getting the info
18:26:45 <pikhq> elliott: Mrf?
18:26:58 <Vorpal> elliott, no luck
18:27:20 <Vorpal> elliott, ah the magnet tab says "downloading...."
18:27:25 <Vorpal> peers 0
18:27:41 <Vorpal> elliott, so while in theory it should work, in practise it doesn't
18:27:48 <Vorpal> and I doubt ktorrent is to blame
18:27:50 <elliott> Vorpal: It does.
18:27:53 <elliott> It takes a minute or so at worst.
18:28:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: It needs to connect to a peer via DHT in order to get the checksums and the file names and file sizes.
18:28:00 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
18:28:03 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on if you are lucky with your dht peers
18:28:06 <elliott> Vorpal: No it doesn't.
18:28:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's not how DHT works.
18:28:12 <Vorpal> elliott, oh?
18:28:14 <elliott> The DHT is organised precisely so that DHT doesn't go slowly.
18:28:20 <Vorpal> well yes
18:28:20 <elliott> The hashspace is allocated to various sections.
18:28:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's a single gigantic network.
18:28:29 <elliott> After a few hits, you are on the right track. Literally.
18:28:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, so why doesn't it find you then?
18:28:51 <elliott> Vorpal: because ktorrent sucks
18:29:01 <Vorpal> elliott, um maybe because I do it over ipv6?
18:29:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: No.
18:29:08 <elliott> Vorpal: You... *force IPv6*?
18:29:09 <Vorpal> I don't have ipv4 port forwarding set up
18:29:11 <Vorpal> elliott, ^
18:29:21 <elliott> Vorpal: You already knew that was the issue, you just wanted to waste our time...
18:29:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... Wait, that would prevent you from bootstrapping DHT.
18:29:31 <Vorpal> elliott, no I didn't think it would be the issue at first
18:29:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: You are a moron.
18:29:42 <elliott> Vorpal: >_<
18:29:45 <elliott> Nobody else uses IPv6!
18:29:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, my router crashes badly if I try to add udp port forwarding
18:29:51 <elliott> Buy a new router.
18:29:52 <pikhq> elliott: I do.
18:29:53 <pikhq> elliott: :)
18:29:55 <elliott> Even my shitty ISP-provided one works.
18:29:57 <Vorpal> elliott, you pay?
18:30:01 <elliott> pikhq: Do you use only-IPv6 for anything?
18:30:03 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is shitty ISP provided
18:30:08 <elliott> So's mine.
18:30:09 <Vorpal> and it only started doing this recently
18:30:10 <pikhq> elliott: No.
18:30:11 <elliott> And it's a really shitty ISP.
18:30:14 <elliott> pikhq: Well then.
18:30:34 <Vorpal> huh
18:30:35 <quintopia> that sounds cool and all, but who wants random data from him? my own random pool is probably full, and one random bit is as good as another...
18:30:42 <Vorpal> elliott, now it says it found you. How strange
18:30:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Indeed, I can see you.
18:30:53 <elliott> I am even downloading from you. (Why?)
18:30:55 * Vorpal cancels download
18:31:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Wait.
18:31:08 <elliott> You would have got two peers if you waited.
18:31:09 <elliott> Sheesh.
18:31:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I had two
18:31:14 <Vorpal> ...
18:31:15 <elliott> My client would have given you pikhq.
18:31:15 <elliott> Ah.
18:31:26 <elliott> Then everything worked perfectly, it's just that because you're on IPv6-only it was ultra-slow.
18:31:30 <Vorpal> elliott, so it works to find it. I don't plan to download 20 MB now, I'm uploading something large
18:31:36 <elliott> quintopia: It was only random so that we could be sure that nobody else had ever had this file before.
18:31:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Okay, so we have demonstrated that DHT works just fine for you.
18:31:42 <catseye> quintopia: this is highly advanced random data from the FUTURE.
18:31:46 <elliott> quintopia: That would compromise the integrity of the experiment.
18:31:49 <Vorpal> and bittorrent slows that down badly
18:31:56 <elliott> We have demonstrated that DHT is magical.
18:32:06 <elliott> Now for our next experiment, we will demonstrate that DMT is magical.
18:32:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it isn't magical as such, just somewhat
18:32:13 <elliott> It's only one letter off!
18:32:39 -!- Harpyon has joined.
18:32:40 <augur> tesla was the electric jesus :D
18:32:42 <Vorpal> elliott, err Discrete multi-tone modulation?
18:32:56 <elliott> http://www.google.com/search?q=DMT
18:32:58 <elliott> First result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine
18:33:02 <elliott> N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a naturally occurring hallucinogenic drug of the tryptamine family. This drug is found not only in many plants,[3] but also in trace amounts in the human body, where its natural function remains undetermined. Structurally, it is analogous to the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT) and other hallucinogenic tryptamines such as 5-MeO-DMT, bufotenin (5-OH-DMT), and psilocin (4-HO-DMT). DMT is created in small amounts by the hu
18:33:03 <elliott> man body during normal metabolism[4] by the enzyme tryptamine-N-methyltransferase. Many cultures, indigenous and modern, ingest DMT as a psychedelic, in either extracted or synthesized forms.[5] When refined, DMT is a clear to white, crystalline solid. However, DMT found on the illicit market is commonly impure and may appear yellow, orange, or salmon in color, unless special care has been taken to remove these impurities. Such impurities result from d
18:33:03 <elliott> egradation or originate from plant matter from which the DMT may have been extracted.
18:33:09 <Vorpal> elliott, not for me, but I'm logged in to gmail
18:33:18 <elliott> Maybe you have safe search turned on.
18:33:21 <quintopia> catseye: i can see how that would be better than normal random data, since not only is it completely unknowable in advance (because its random) but i can also know it in advance! (because it is from the future)
18:33:22 <elliott> pikhq: ski? Absolutely.
18:33:27 <elliott> pikhq: DO NOT INCLUDE THE NAME
18:33:31 <elliott> Names shall be found through DHT
18:33:42 <Vorpal> elliott, first result for me is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthogonal_frequency-division_multiplexing, "Orthogonal frequency-division multiplexing (OFDM), essentially identical to coded OFDM (COFDM) and discrete multi-tone modulation (DMT)."
18:33:44 <pikhq> elliott: Okay.
18:33:45 <elliott> In the future reality, the hash will replace all other identifiers
18:33:55 <elliott> pikhq: I'm just gonna stop downloading random_image now.
18:33:58 <catseye> quintopia: indeed! they really ought to be charging more for such valuable goods
18:34:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, invent a version control system over bittorrent
18:34:08 <Vorpal> no, I don't know how
18:34:21 <elliott> Vorpal: If I can convince pikhq to, we are totally reinventing the internet as a DHT.
18:34:24 <elliott> Like Freenet but better.
18:34:31 <elliott> And more P2P.
18:34:31 <pikhq> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:GIE5JPJQDQALGZ4XNEHATD3NMPFIWDR6
18:34:35 <quintopia> I want a version control system that lets me revert to future as-yet-unwritten versions!
18:34:36 <elliott> pikhq: LOWERCASE
18:34:36 <elliott> :P
18:34:37 <pikhq> Vorpal: Git already can.
18:34:48 <elliott> magnet:?xt=urn:btih:gie5jpjqdqalgz4xnehatd3nmpfiwdr6
18:34:56 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, added.
18:35:01 <elliott> I will say when I get you as a peer so we can time it.
18:35:12 <pikhq> It's like 30k. :)
18:35:29 <elliott> Doody doo.
18:35:33 <elliott> Got a peer.
18:35:37 <elliott> pikhq: Now I have the name.
18:35:39 <elliott> Now I'm downloading.
18:35:41 <elliott> Now I have it.
18:35:45 <elliott> Now I'm seeding (to nobody).
18:35:48 <pikhq> \o/
18:35:52 <pikhq> MAGIC!
18:36:05 <elliott> 10:34:56 to 10:35:45 according to clog.
18:36:11 <elliott> Or 41, depending on what timestamp you believe.
18:36:24 <elliott> So basically... 45 to 49 seconds.
18:36:43 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: Git already can. <-- huh
18:36:51 <elliott> pikhq: DHT = magical.
18:36:52 <elliott> pikhq: Although.
18:36:57 <elliott> pikhq: Would my client have tried you sooner since I was -- no.
18:37:02 <elliott> No, it wouldn't; that would have gone quickly.
18:37:05 <elliott> My client did it from scratch.
18:37:08 <elliott> A W E S O M E
18:38:00 <quintopia> how does it work?
18:38:39 <pikhq> quintopia: World-wide hash table is used to go from the identifying hash to peers. It asks these peers for the torrent info. It then downloads from these peers.
18:38:40 <elliott> quintopia: Awesomely.
18:39:04 <elliott> quintopia: Follow up to what pikhq said: And then further peers are discovered from peers we're already connected to.
18:39:06 <elliott> quintopia: Wait, sec:
18:39:16 <elliott> quintopia: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bcf2e587afd4d3b1bdd8ece5150d9fb4d2958af4
18:39:20 <elliott> quintopia: Put this in your client.
18:39:23 <elliott> (Nothing illegal.)
18:39:29 <catseye> "world-wide" meaning "all peers have a copy of at least some of the table"?
18:39:40 <pikhq> catseye: All DHT peers, yes.
18:39:45 <catseye> k
18:39:48 <elliott> catseye: The hashspace is divided between all peers, I think.
18:40:15 <elliott> quintopia: You will notice that, given nothing but what amounts to a *hash* of a structure that contains only a title, a filename, a file size and a checksum of that file, within about 10 seconds you're downloading Ubuntu from tens of peers.
18:40:18 <Mathnerd314> elliott: wait, it's actually working?
18:40:22 <elliott> Mathnerd314: yep
18:40:29 <elliott> Mathnerd314: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:gie5jpjqdqalgz4xnehatd3nmpfiwdr6
18:40:32 <elliott> to get some code from pikhq
18:40:33 <elliott> oh wait
18:40:35 <elliott> pikhq: have you stopped seeding?
18:40:36 <elliott> taht's okay
18:40:37 <elliott> I can seed
18:40:38 <elliott> *that's
18:40:40 <pikhq> Nope.
18:40:47 <elliott> I'm not connected to you. But whatever.
18:40:56 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Add that magnet and it should download from both of us.
18:40:58 <quintopia> elliott: that hash points to maverick final?
18:41:03 <pikhq> I see him.
18:41:05 <elliott> quintopia: not the one i linked Mathnerd314 to
18:41:08 <elliott> but the one before it, yes
18:41:10 <elliott> quintopia: but no -- not points
18:41:23 <elliott> quintopia: It is merely a *hash* of a structure that basically amounts to a file name, size, and a checksum.
18:41:40 <elliott> quintopia: The magic of DHT means we can *download a file knowing basically nothing but a hash of a checksum*.
18:41:41 <catseye> a hash of a hash
18:41:53 <quintopia> yes, but it points to after looking up in the global hashtable, yes?
18:41:53 <elliott> quintopia: From tens upon tens of people, maxing out more or less any connection (it's Ubuntu, after all).
18:42:00 <elliott> quintopia: Sure.
18:42:04 <elliott> quintopia: It doesn't point to the file.
18:42:26 <elliott> Just to an info structure with the file name, size and checksum in; DHT peers can also say "[some IP] is peering this".
18:42:36 <elliott> And then we can use peer exchange to get peers from those peers, and find more peers on the DHT...
18:42:39 <elliott> And this all happens very, very quickly.
18:42:47 <elliott> quintopia: Try adding magnet:?xt=urn:btih:bcf2e587afd4d3b1bdd8ece5150d9fb4d2958af4 if you haven't already.
18:42:51 <elliott> quintopia: You'll be amazed how fast it goes.
18:42:54 <elliott> And at no point is a tracker involved.
18:42:57 <elliott> pikhq: I don't see Mathnerd314.
18:43:15 <elliott> pikhq: Which is odd, since I saw Vorpal.
18:43:20 <pikhq> I see him.
18:43:21 <elliott> pikhq: Is your peer exchange working?
18:43:39 <pikhq> And I saw you for half a sec.
18:43:49 <elliott> pikhq: o_O
18:43:51 <elliott> Oh well.
18:43:52 <pikhq> Aaand his client is requesting nothing.
18:44:00 <elliott> pikhq: Try restarting your client :P
18:44:01 <elliott> I'll do the same
18:44:04 <elliott> quintopia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_hash_table is about DHTs in general
18:44:06 <quintopia> elliott: i'm trying to figure out how
18:44:12 <elliott> quintopia: what client?
18:44:18 <pikhq> elliott: Deluge.
18:44:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:44:22 <pikhq> elliott: Which SUCKS ASS.
18:44:25 <elliott> pikhq: you don't know that
18:44:27 <elliott> Mathnerd314 was on deluge iirc
18:44:35 <pikhq> elliott: I have tried it. It SUCKS.
18:44:42 <pikhq> Oh, wait, quintopia.
18:44:43 <elliott> pikhq: YOU DON'T KNOW THAT QUINTOPIA USES DELUGE :|
18:44:58 <pikhq> Deluge does suck, though.
18:45:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, ktorrent is the best one I seen so far for linux
18:45:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: You, sir, have no taste.
18:45:36 <elliott> transmission-qt
18:45:37 <elliott> seriously
18:45:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, tried rtorrent and transmission-gtk. Both were sucky IMO
18:45:39 <elliott> or -gtk if you want that
18:45:44 <Vorpal> elliott, never tried the qt one
18:45:45 <elliott> Why, was Transmission too ~simple~?
18:45:50 <Vorpal> elliott, yes
18:45:53 <elliott> Not enough twiddly knobs?
18:45:55 <elliott> Ahahaha
18:45:59 <elliott> It's more full-featured than most clients.
18:46:01 <catseye> rtorrent: a torrent client written in R
18:46:09 <quintopia> okay, DHT is on. now just have to find where a magnet: URI goes...
18:46:15 <elliott> Congratulations: you have actually developed a mind that rejects programs because they look *too easy to use *.
18:46:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: You are not allowed to have opinions about UIs.
18:46:20 <elliott> quintopia: What client?
18:46:23 <quintopia> ktorrent
18:46:35 <elliott> quintopia: "Open URL" or whatever.
18:46:39 <elliott> You also have no taste.
18:46:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I was unable to find features that were nice in ktorrent
18:46:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Such as...
18:47:19 <quintopia> yeah, i don't torrent much. i use it because it is there.
18:47:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well, peer listing with countries for ips iirc.
18:47:34 <elliott> pikhq: Let us admire the last message sent to this channel.
18:47:48 <elliott> Let's just... stare at it.
18:47:56 <quintopia> yeah it still says it doesn't know the magnet protocol
18:48:02 <quintopia> so not open url
18:48:11 <elliott> quintopia: install transmission-{gtk,qt}; pick one :p
18:48:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it seems a bit more advanced in the current version
18:48:13 <pikhq> quintopia: Uninstall it.
18:48:13 <elliott> worked for Vorpal though
18:48:15 <Vorpal> just checked
18:48:37 <Vorpal> elliott, when I tried it, it was at pre-1.0
18:49:06 <elliott> Then it's a bit misleading to criticise it based on very old perceptions, isn't it?
18:49:15 <elliott> It still doesn't have countries in the peer list, though!
18:49:18 <Mathnerd314> elliott: wait, so I have random_data, random_image, ski, GRegor-op13-mov1.ogg, and ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso all open. which of them work?
18:49:23 <Vorpal> elliott, true, I didn't think of that
18:49:32 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Uhh, you can get rid of the gregor and ubuntu ones.
18:49:33 <quintopia> removed, installing xmission
18:49:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I like pointless statistics.
18:49:40 <elliott> quintopia: you may want the -qt version
18:49:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Fitting.
18:49:47 <elliott> Mathnerd314: In fact all of them but ski.
18:49:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: "I like pointless[ness]"
18:49:52 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Although the Ubuntu one should work fine.
18:49:52 <catseye> 21% of all statistics are pointless
18:50:07 <Vorpal> elliott, heck, so do you. Otherwise why did you admire fizzie's graphs and such so much? :P
18:50:20 <elliott> I don't.
18:50:23 <elliott> They amuse me.
18:50:26 <catseye> i claim that there are no nests in the tree outside my window
18:50:29 <elliott> You are the one obsessed with them.
18:50:33 <quintopia> elliott: transmission-qt is just a gui wrapper for -common
18:50:40 <elliott> quintopia: Yes... so is -gtk.
18:50:45 <elliott> quintopia: It's not a "wrapper".
18:50:47 <elliott> It's one of the frontends.
18:50:49 <Mathnerd314> elliott: ok, and ski is seeding?
18:50:55 <elliott> Mathnerd314: I am; dunno about pikhq.
18:50:58 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I am.
18:51:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, I don't use fizzie Desktop Environment that provides me with graphs on my desktop.
18:51:08 <elliott> For a reason other than it not existing, too.
18:51:13 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I mean I downloaded it and am now seeding
18:51:20 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:51:22 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Then congratulations; it worked.
18:51:31 <elliott> pikhq: Link me to that gregor webseeded one again?
18:51:43 * Sgeo wonders if he should try Digsby again
18:51:44 <Vorpal> elliott, aww
18:51:54 <Sgeo> I wish Empathy was available for Windows
18:52:11 <elliott> Empathy is the worst client ever apart from Pidgin.
18:52:13 <quintopia> elliott: frontend=wrapper in the sense (a port of one interface to another interface). in the case of GUI frontends, the new interface is a human interface...
18:52:15 <Gregor> Sgeo: No one has empathy for Windows.
18:52:21 <elliott> quintopia: So why not install -qt?
18:52:23 <elliott> Or -gtk.
18:52:28 <fizzie> elliott: Grah, now you made me start to download that Ubuntu because I wanted to see if those links work, and chose a random one. What am I supposed to do with ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso, huh?
18:52:32 <quintopia> elliott: i was already installing it when you said that
18:52:43 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: why does deluge suck?
18:52:45 <elliott> quintopia: oh, i thought you were dismissing it for being a frontend
18:52:50 <elliott> fizzie: Start the ski one instead!
18:52:50 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Run top
18:52:59 <elliott> fizzie: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:3209d4bd301c00b36797690e098f6d63ca8b0e3e
18:53:03 <pikhq> elliott: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:EMAAKALBHODH4WZGTN7MCXTWXCWM3N4E&ws=http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1.ogg
18:53:07 <elliott> fizzie: That one has two seeders and seemingly only pikhq's works.
18:53:13 <elliott> pikhq: Wtf? Lame. Put the webseed in the .torrent.
18:53:21 <elliott> pikhq: And use the hash of that.
18:53:24 <elliott> pikhq: Or does that not work? :(
18:53:24 <pikhq> elliott: It is, but that won't get transferred.
18:53:28 <elliott> pikhq: ...WHY NOT ;_;
18:53:36 <pikhq> elliott: *All* that gets transferred is the info dictionary.
18:53:44 <elliott> pikhq: Why aren't webseeds in the info dictionary >__________>
18:53:47 <pikhq> elliott: Which contains *nothing* but checksums, filenames, and file lengths.
18:53:48 <elliott> (Silly question, I know.)
18:53:54 <elliott> pikhq: you forgot the torrent name
18:54:25 <quintopia> where the fuck did it install? trying to run "transmission" asks me to install -gtk
18:54:32 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: ok, it uses up some cpu when the GUI is open... but then you can quit the gui and just leave the daemon running
18:54:39 <elliott> quintopia: transmission-qt probably
18:54:42 <fizzie> elliott: Well, I saw two peers while downloading that latter one.
18:54:42 <elliott> failing that look in your menus
18:54:47 <elliott> fizzie: The ski one?
18:54:52 <fizzie> elliott: Right.
18:54:53 <quintopia> pfft menus
18:54:58 <elliott> fizzie: Yay. I didn't seed to you, though.
18:55:42 <elliott> pikhq: Proposal: A website where you can post DHT hashes and vote on them, plus a bunch of servers in a country with lax copyright laws that downloads the top N hashes (sometimes swapping out less well-off ones for balance) and seeds them, with a phat pipe.
18:55:47 <elliott> TOTALLY PHAT PIPE
18:55:47 <quintopia> guess i've gotta run locate on root...good thing my system part is small
18:56:00 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: "Some"?
18:56:06 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Try "1 of 3 cores".
18:56:17 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i like how a gui using appreciable cpu is considered at all acceptable.
18:56:20 <elliott> sorry, "hate"
18:56:20 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: not for me
18:56:25 <catseye> lax copyright laws + phat pipe = most popular nation in the UN
18:56:41 <Mathnerd314> elliott: my point was that the GUI is hardly ever open
18:57:10 <pikhq> Lemme put it this way: if a GUI ever needs more than 2% of a CPU *just to run the GUI*, you're doing it motherfucking wrong.
18:57:21 <Gregor> Sealand?
18:58:06 <elliott> Gregor: They have governmental issues.
18:58:11 <elliott> And also burned to death a few years ago.
18:58:21 -!- tombom has joined.
18:58:23 <elliott> Gregor: (There is a group of mobsters -- not joking -- who claim to be the Sealand government in exile).
18:58:27 <elliott> *.)
18:58:32 <elliott> Gregor: (They run a Sealand website claiming to be the real government.)
18:58:34 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so, does this mean that you can do some work, give someone a hash, and they can download it?
18:58:42 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Yes. If you seed it.
18:59:15 <pikhq> If *somebody* seeds it.
18:59:22 <elliott> Well, yeah.
18:59:27 <elliott> I was assuming a strict chronological order.
18:59:49 <pikhq> It is entirely possible for the torrent file to have ceased to exist and it still works so long as somebody is still seeding.
19:00:32 <elliott> pikhq: How do I shot make .torrent file minimalised so no peers?
19:00:43 <pikhq> elliott: ?
19:00:48 <pikhq> elliott: THAT DOES NOT PARSE
19:01:14 <pikhq> God DAMMIT Berne Convention.
19:01:15 <elliott> pikhq: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
19:01:30 <elliott> pikhq: No but seriously: How do I strip all the stuff out of a .torrent to be suitable for this craziness?
19:01:31 <pikhq> It's an *international treaty* that sets the minimum copyright term to Life + 50 years.
19:01:48 <pikhq> elliott: Emacs, remove basically everything but the info dictionary. :)
19:02:18 <elliott> pikhq: I'm retarded. Need more specific instructions.
19:02:27 <elliott> There is big big binary blob, what is?
19:03:09 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, something. Part of the info dictionary. No touch.
19:03:28 <pikhq> Actually. I'm pretty sure that's the set of part hashes.
19:03:33 <elliott> pikhq: Do I need d10:?
19:03:36 <elliott> ah wait
19:03:39 <elliott> I need d but not 10 right?
19:03:48 <elliott> d10:created by25:Transmission/2.04 (11151)
19:03:53 <elliott> I can strip out the 10 and 25 blocks there, right?
19:03:55 <elliott> And the creation date.
19:03:59 <elliott> What about encoding?
19:04:40 -!- Harpyon has quit (Quit: Harpyon).
19:04:44 <Vorpal> elliott, in ktorrent I can just create one suitable for pure magnet directly!
19:04:45 <Vorpal> :P
19:05:00 <elliott> Vorpal: no, it will have excess
19:05:03 <elliott> pure magnet would work with this
19:05:07 <elliott> but it has more information than strictly necessary
19:05:12 <elliott> this is just a stupid thing to do
19:05:23 <Vorpal> ah
19:05:24 <Vorpal> :P
19:05:30 <Vorpal> bbl food
19:07:06 <catseye> oh man, combine dht with rsync
19:08:07 <quintopia> my system does not contain a file named "transmission"
19:08:11 <quintopia> something went wrong...
19:08:12 * Mathnerd314 wonders when people will stop using HTTP
19:08:22 <quintopia> *containing
19:08:23 <elliott> quintopia: it may be transmission-qt or whatever
19:08:25 <elliott> Mathnerd314: never
19:08:52 <catseye> in the future al protocols will be tunnelled over http -- for very good reasons!
19:08:57 <catseye> *all
19:09:09 <catseye> (which includes the al protocols, of course)
19:09:48 <quintopia> the very good reason is because the first post-singularity AI will claim all other protocols as its own. "HUMANS STAY ON SILLY HTTP LEAVE ME ALONE"
19:10:01 <elliott> first post-singularity ai?
19:10:04 <elliott> you have your terminology mixed up
19:10:08 <elliott> pikhq: So, wait.
19:10:20 <elliott> d10:created by25:Transmission/2.04 (11151)13:creation datei1287165549e8:encoding5:UTF-84:infod6:lengthi2323076e4:name24:transmission-2.10.tar.xz12:piece lengthi32768e6:pieces1420:<BINARY>
19:10:22 <quintopia> elliott: the AI that reaches singularity first
19:10:26 <elliott> pikhq: I chop off everything from 1 to the last :, right?
19:10:40 <elliott> quintopia: "seed AI"/"Omega"/"singularity ai"
19:10:42 <Mathnerd314> elliott: people could just change all the http links to magnet links
19:10:47 <elliott> Mathnerd314: not that easy
19:10:56 <quintopia> elliott: as you like.
19:11:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:11:33 <quintopia> singularity is the moment where AI goes transhuman and transforms everything. it makes sense to talk about things that exist post-singularity, even if you're not used to it
19:11:44 <elliott> AI cannot be transhuman.
19:11:45 <elliott> it is not human.
19:11:49 <elliott> your terminology is seriously defective
19:11:54 <elliott> and i was not complaining about "post-singularity"
19:12:08 <elliott> I was complaining about "the *first* *post*-singularity AI"
19:12:16 <elliott> i.e. the first AI to come after the singularity -- which was not what you meant
19:12:25 <quintopia> you interpret things funny
19:12:31 <Mathnerd314> elliott: sure, you'd need browser support. but otherwise it's not too hard
19:12:45 <oerjan> ...you might have a superintelligent humanity group mind. that would be transhuman, no? >:)
19:12:45 <quintopia> and yes, an AI can be transhuman...when it can do everything a human can do and more
19:12:56 <elliott> quintopia: your terminology is *seriously* defective, ask anyone else knowledgeable about this and they will agree
19:13:00 <elliott> and you don't know what transhuman means
19:13:02 <elliott> oerjan: that's not an AI
19:13:08 <elliott> Mathnerd314: nope
19:13:11 <elliott> Mathnerd314: http doesn't work like that
19:13:12 <elliott> and nor does magnet
19:13:17 <elliott> magnet just identifies a certain piece of data
19:13:30 <elliott> a url can have its contents changed
19:13:34 <elliott> which would change the magnet link...
19:13:43 <oerjan> it could be partially artificial ... there's no reason why an AI must be wholly inorganic
19:13:49 <quintopia> transhuman usually refers to augmenting humans. but there is nothing seriously flawed about using it to refer to a state of being more than human (aka, human plus)
19:14:02 <quintopia> and an AI that can do everything a human can and more is human plus
19:14:38 <quintopia> also, *insert Humpty Dumpty quote about word meanings here*
19:14:48 <Mathnerd314> elliott: you'd still have search engines
19:15:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: regardless, it is not as simple as s/http/magnet/ at all
19:15:17 <Sgeo> Why can't an AI be entirely organic?
19:15:22 <elliott> magnet isn't anything like http
19:15:25 <elliott> Sgeo: because then it'd be an I
19:15:33 <quintopia> elliott: no
19:15:42 <quintopia> you can have an entirely organic AI
19:15:49 <quintopia> ignore elliott's silliness
19:15:51 <Sgeo> If it was designed by humans, though
19:16:04 <elliott> oh come on, that definition sucks
19:16:17 <elliott> after an AI self-improves itself N times, we did relatively very little on it
19:16:19 <quintopia> what does "artificial" mean if not "made by artifice"
19:16:24 <elliott> so to use "AI" to claim authorship is just... wrong
19:16:36 <Sgeo> If the seed AI was designed by humans, ten
19:16:36 <elliott> quintopia: yes, the literal expansion of AI is a stupid term which is why nobody uses it any more
19:16:38 <Sgeo> *then
19:16:41 <elliott> AI is used to mean machine intelligence
19:16:54 <elliott> Sgeo: i don't think you realise that the work a self-improving seed AI would do to itself would far surpass any human effort
19:16:57 <quintopia> but you can have organic machines
19:17:00 <elliott> it would not be ours
19:17:01 <quintopia> completely organic machines
19:17:03 <Sgeo> What about a self-modifying organic intellect?
19:17:08 <elliott> quintopia: OMG TERMINOLOGY IS VAGUE HELP
19:17:10 <elliott> I CAN'T HANDLE IT
19:17:15 <elliott> this is boring, i'm not talking about it any more
19:17:36 <quintopia> using AI to claim authorship is not what we're doing. if the AI bootstraps itself, it is *still* using artifice: it authors itself
19:17:55 <quintopia> and if we augment our own intelligence, we become semi-AIs
19:18:43 <quintopia> also, rage-quitting arguments is seriously lame
19:18:45 <Gregor> And if we continue to talk about pseudo-philosophical pseudo-scientific nonsense like the singularity on #esoteric, we become morons.
19:18:58 <catseye> the singularity is an event that is independent of any AI... i claim
19:19:01 <oerjan> thought: mathematicians are already semi-AIs in that sense
19:19:17 <quintopia> oerjan: EVERYONE is a cyborg these days
19:19:26 <quintopia> except maybe random african children
19:19:37 <elliott> Gregor: Always good to know we'll have someone to reject things without justification, probably because "IT SOUNDS LIKE SCI-FI LOL"
19:19:38 <oerjan> quintopia: um cybernetic is a different word again
19:19:54 <quintopia> bleh
19:19:57 <elliott> Actually I'll let pikhq do my arguing for me, since this is boring and Gregor is about to spew bullshit in approx. 30 seconds.
19:20:04 <oerjan> i think _that_ is more clearly about machines
19:20:11 <Gregor> *sigh*
19:20:22 <Gregor> It is amazing the kind of silliness that gets discussed on #esoteric sometimes.
19:20:26 <quintopia> this could have been a good discussion
19:20:27 <quintopia> oh well
19:20:44 <elliott> Gregor: Argumentum ad SIGH, you children.
19:20:51 <Gregor> I'm not arguing.
19:21:00 <Sgeo> Even if an AI comes to being but it says "Well, no signularity in this universe", we'll still have some improvements
19:21:04 <elliott> Then shut the fuck up, because everyone who has ever read the word "singularity" has heard it 1,000 times before.
19:21:05 <Gregor> I'm not making any point within your current debate.
19:21:18 -!- kiwigrin has left (?).
19:21:20 <catseye> i can PROVE that the signularity is an event independent of any AI! any better?
19:21:34 * Gregor bashes his head into a wall.
19:21:37 <quintopia> oerjan: in any case, we were always talking about machine augmentation, whether said machines be organic or inorganic
19:21:43 <elliott> Gregor: /part
19:21:51 <oerjan> Gregor: if the singularity isn't an esoteric topic in computing and programming, i don't know _what_ would be
19:21:53 <elliott> You don't have to hear any of our pseudo-scientific bullshit, and it saves us from your sighing bullshit.
19:21:57 <elliott> Please shut up or do so.
19:22:18 <catseye> oerjan: a cheaply popularized topic?
19:22:24 * Sgeo turns colored nicknames on
19:22:33 <catseye> no wait, got the sense of oerjan's question wrong
19:22:53 <catseye> oerjan: denotational arrows, then.
19:23:17 <catseye> denotational arrows will lead us to the singularity
19:23:29 <quintopia> time flies like one
19:23:45 <oerjan> catseye: arrows would probably a good fit for denotational semantics of concatenative languages, i think
19:23:50 <oerjan> *be a
19:24:10 <quintopia> speaking of esoteric subjects in computing and intelligence, paul churchland is speaking here next tuesday
19:24:12 <catseye> oerjan: i know. they totally would. i am completely guessing but it feels so right.
19:24:16 * quintopia goes to see what that's about
19:24:53 <catseye> oerjan: i was also puzzling over how one would even approach denotational semantics of rewriting languages
19:25:13 <Sgeo> In #esoteric ?
19:25:24 <Sgeo> >..
19:25:25 <Sgeo> >.>
19:25:32 <catseye> >>.
19:25:35 <Sgeo> Damn you, you damn dirty shift key1
19:25:53 <quintopia> ha
19:26:30 <Sgeo> I... don't know if it's me misremembering SGu's use of the reference, or if SGU was wrong
19:27:22 <oerjan> Argumentum ad suspirium
19:27:41 <quintopia> his address is on "Plato's Camera: How the Physical Brain Captures a Landscape of Abstract Universals"
19:27:45 <quintopia> what the hell does that mean
19:28:04 <quintopia> maybe he'll show where the denotational arrows are in the brain
19:29:44 <oerjan> catseye: heh rewriting is just hideously intrinsically operational, isn't it
19:30:46 <elliott> pikhq: ping
19:31:26 <oerjan> quintopia: you _have_ heard about plato's cave parable, i hope
19:31:49 <quintopia> what makes you think that plato'
19:31:54 <quintopia> s camera is a reference to that?
19:32:08 <quintopia> it had occurred to me, but he might mean something entirely different
19:32:12 <oerjan> well it's almost certainly _alluding_ to it
19:33:47 <oerjan> ideas and abstract universals sound related, anyway
19:34:28 <elliott> pikhq: ping
19:34:30 <elliott> pikhq: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:fd54a1a61e98443c0b089740a316bfcb6de4580b
19:34:41 <elliott> (or anyone else)
19:35:06 <oerjan> <cheater> undefined indent structures ftl
19:35:20 <oerjan> since when are haskell's indent structures undefined...
19:35:37 <oerjan> they _are_ more complicated than python's, admittedly
19:38:57 <Vorpal> very complicated but afaik well defined
19:39:34 <elliott> not complicated
19:39:47 <elliott> at all
19:39:57 <Vorpal> elliott, more so than python at least
19:40:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and iirc it is a bit complicated if mixed with { } (sure you shouldn't do that, but that is irrelevant for how complicated the rules defined by the language are)
19:41:06 <elliott> Vorpal: haskell indent rule: "lines that start on the same column as the start of the block are part of it"
19:41:22 <elliott> there's one additional thing for do i think where if you just have a newline after a control structure, and an indent
19:41:28 <elliott> then that counts as the first column
19:41:38 <elliott> that's not even an exception really
19:42:06 <Vorpal> elliott, okay then, would you be able to agree that they give rise to complicated behaviour though?
19:42:10 <elliott> nope
19:42:35 <quintopia> elliott: the transmission-qt binary is called qtr for some damned strange reason
19:42:43 <elliott> quintopia: weird
19:42:44 <elliott> what distro?
19:42:50 <quintopia> ubuntu
19:42:52 <oerjan> well the really complicated part is the syntax-error rule for adding }'s
19:43:04 <elliott> oerjan: remind me again?
19:43:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, huh?
19:43:32 <catseye> quintopia: it's a hash!
19:43:47 <oerjan> if a lexical token is a syntax error at a spot, haskell tries to see if it can be removed by ending a block first
19:44:13 <oerjan> this allows such things as one-liners
19:44:22 <quintopia> magnet link input
19:44:25 <oerjan> !haskell let x = 2+2 in x+x
19:44:30 <quintopia> no peers yet...
19:44:31 <elliott> oerjan: ah, right
19:44:41 <catseye> 4
19:44:41 <quintopia> where is my peers? :(
19:44:41 <elliott> quintopia: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:fd54a1a61e98443c0b089740a316bfcb6de4580b? or the ski one
19:44:45 <oerjan> the syntax error rule is what ends the block before the in
19:44:45 <catseye> no wait
19:44:46 <catseye> 8
19:44:51 <quintopia> the maverick one i think
19:44:52 <Vorpal> <oerjan> if a lexical token is a syntax error at a spot, haskell tries to see if it can be removed by ending a block first <-- ouch XD
19:44:54 <quintopia> the one ending f4
19:44:56 <elliott> catseye: worst interpreter ever :D
19:45:06 <catseye> w00t haah
19:45:14 <elliott> quintopia: not sure which one that is ... wait that's ubuntu i think
19:45:19 <elliott> you should get peers very quickly second time onwards
19:46:34 <quintopia> still no peers
19:46:43 <Vorpal> elliott, hm does the torrent client cache know peers for future times it is run?
19:46:49 <quintopia> is there anyway to specify the first peer?
19:46:54 <elliott> Vorpal: i think it stores some sort of peers. maybe.
19:47:02 <Vorpal> quintopia, no DHT peers or no peers on the magnet link?
19:47:05 <elliott> quintopia: no, and even if you could -- you can in the magnet -- that would defeat the *whole* point of this exercise
19:47:14 <elliott> it should work fine
19:47:16 <elliott> quintopia: OHWAIT
19:47:18 <elliott> you need to have your dht port open
19:47:27 <elliott> go to preferences, network tab
19:47:30 <elliott> test the port
19:47:34 <elliott> well that's not just the dht port but
19:47:44 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:47:46 <elliott> quintopia: forward that port as TCP in your router
19:47:51 <quintopia> it's closed
19:47:54 -!- EgoBot has joined.
19:47:55 * quintopia fixes
19:47:57 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the charm of ipv6, no need to mess with buggy routers
19:48:07 <elliott> Vorpal: err
19:48:08 <elliott> not buggy
19:48:12 <elliott> just not yet forwarded.....
19:48:15 <catseye> oerjan: btw, i realize the conflict with lambdabot. can you suggest a better control character?
19:48:16 <Vorpal> elliott, mine is :P
19:48:22 <elliott> quintopia: forward 6881 on UDP too for good measure
19:48:34 <elliott> quintopia: then restart the torrent; if it is the ubuntu one, it'll get peers ridiculously quickly
19:49:24 -!- Harpyon has joined.
19:49:33 <quintopia> elliott: i think the port is open, but the test IP for transmission is a blacklisted IP
19:49:35 <oerjan> catseye: erm...
19:49:39 <elliott> quintopia: seriously? Why?
19:49:48 <elliott> who blacklisted it:?
19:49:50 <elliott> *it?
19:49:53 * oerjan thinks of #
19:50:01 <quintopia> moblock blacklists are ridiculously conservative
19:50:03 <Vorpal> elliott, but for being a buggy home router, it has a remarkable number of features in the telnet interface (that are missing from the web UI). SNMP, syslog forwarding, RIP (I haven't tried it, since it could mess up badly if you don't know exactly what you are doing), ipsec forwarding (no ipsec server or ipsec client sadly) and so on
19:50:10 <catseye> #tell #esoteric #secrets
19:50:13 <elliott> quintopia: meh
19:50:15 <Mathnerd314> elliott: 5 minutes of fd5... and no peers?
19:50:29 <catseye> oerjan: i was considering ?
19:50:32 <oerjan> oops
19:50:33 <elliott> Mathnerd314: well, i'm the only seeder and i think my seeding might be broken :D
19:50:36 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i guess i'll try and fix that
19:50:51 <oerjan> catseye: i think lambdabot uses that too but only for a couple commands
19:50:53 <catseye> maybe something in the upper echelons of unicode would be a nice change though
19:50:59 <elliott> quintopia: unblock it then :p
19:51:09 <elliott> lambdabot accepts ? for everything
19:51:09 <elliott> i think
19:51:12 <quintopia> elliott: working on it
19:51:16 * oerjan isn't sure what they were
19:51:18 <oerjan> elliott: oh
19:51:19 <Vorpal> catseye, what about % ?
19:51:25 <elliott> Vorpal: blahbot` uses that
19:51:26 <Vorpal> catseye, I don't know any bot using it
19:51:31 <Vorpal> elliott, not in here?
19:51:34 <elliott> Vorpal: was in here.
19:51:37 <Vorpal> when
19:51:39 <elliott> lambdabot isn't here either
19:51:42 <quintopia> elliott: where is University of Obviousness located?
19:51:44 <elliott> but we should avoid prefix clashes full stop
19:51:48 <Vorpal> okay what about ¤ then
19:51:48 <elliott> quintopia: your mom
19:51:49 <quintopia> i want my captaincy
19:51:52 <Vorpal> or "
19:51:56 <elliott> Mathnerd314: oh wait
19:51:56 <Vorpal> wait, " is bad
19:52:02 <elliott> Mathnerd314: maybe transmission is failing a bit at this
19:52:05 <elliott> Mathnerd314: i'll try another client
19:52:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, catseye, elliott, ?, no bot uses that iirc?
19:52:11 * oerjan blasphemically suggests "storkbot: "
19:52:20 <elliott> Vorpal: we *just said* ? and dismissed it
19:52:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, you mean "storkbot[:,] "
19:52:24 <elliott> use your scrollback!
19:52:29 <Vorpal> elliott, on what grounds?
19:52:33 <elliott> Vorpal: no, fags who use "," after nicks are... fags
19:52:37 <elliott> Vorpal: lambdabot uses ? too
19:52:49 <Vorpal> elliott, why can't it stick to one prefix?
19:52:49 <elliott> Mathnerd314: sec
19:53:00 <elliott> Vorpal: because it's lambdabot and it can do whatever the fuck it wants
19:53:15 <Sgeo> elliott, XChat seems to default to ,
19:53:19 <fizzie> I find ~ very botty; was that already used by someone?
19:53:21 <elliott> Sgeo: indeed.
19:53:35 <elliott> fizzie: Don't think so.
19:53:40 <elliott> "." is reserved for botte.
19:53:57 <fizzie> I'll reserve the snowman for Extended Fungot 2.0.
19:54:27 <Vorpal> I reserved -
19:54:30 <Vorpal> since ages ago
19:54:35 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't recall that
19:54:38 <elliott> - is a bad prefix anyway
19:54:40 <elliott> --as you can see.
19:54:45 <elliott> -3 people like it.
19:55:04 <Vorpal> elliott, oh wait, - was not it, it was ;
19:55:04 <oerjan> did anyone use "," yet
19:55:06 <Vorpal> that I used
19:55:13 <Vorpal> yes, ;
19:55:15 <elliott> Vorpal: ;_;
19:55:33 <oerjan> pesky emotica
19:55:34 <fizzie> I'll take the [a-z] range, m'kay?
19:55:41 <Vorpal> elliott, solution: match ^;[A-Za-z]
19:56:06 <Vorpal> elliott, and ignore ;P obviously
19:56:20 <Vorpal> I reserve ¤ btw
19:56:24 <Vorpal> as well as ;
19:56:26 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ok restart it
19:56:29 <elliott> Mathnerd314: it should get me now
19:56:33 <elliott> my DHT is increasing in nodes
19:56:37 <elliott> on qbittorrent
19:56:44 <elliott> Vorpal: not ;D?
19:56:48 <Mathnerd314> ok, restarted
19:57:03 <Vorpal> elliott, that too, probably it should be ;[A-Za-z]{2,} or such
19:57:13 <elliott> with . all i have to handle is ...
19:57:14 <elliott> which is easy :P
19:57:16 <Vorpal> elliott, even though ;z is not very common
19:57:24 <elliott> ;z is the best smiley ever
19:57:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't say .P
19:57:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: you know it would be simpler to ignore things that _aren't_ commands
19:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, but what does it mean?
19:57:37 <elliott> who cares?
19:57:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, it would be nice to get errors for typoed commands though
19:57:52 <elliott> Mathnerd314: how goes it?
19:58:07 <Mathnerd314> no luck yet
19:58:32 <quintopia> bleh the port is closed even with moblock stopped. i have no control over my router
19:58:38 * quintopia tries a different port
19:58:52 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I don't think that - at the beginning of a line is very common on irc
19:59:06 <elliott> Vorpal: you're not very common on irc
19:59:18 <elliott> maybe I'll use "Vorpal: " as my prefix
19:59:19 <Vorpal> elliott, let me check logs
19:59:38 <Vorpal> elliott, that would just be nasty :P
19:59:54 <elliott> Mathnerd314: this is not going so well :D
20:00:04 <elliott> Mathnerd314: apparently peers are "0 (2)"
20:00:07 <elliott> which makes little sense to me
20:00:34 <elliott> Mathnerd314: wait the magnet link has changed :V
20:00:35 <elliott> *:D
20:00:54 <elliott> Mathnerd314: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:7vkkdjq6tbcdycyis5akgfv7znw6iwal
20:00:56 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that should work
20:00:58 <elliott> you can discard the old one
20:01:01 <fizzie> elliott: You have a very strange mouth. (Cf. ;z, :V.)
20:01:11 <elliott> fizzie: :V is pretty common
20:01:14 <elliott> comex uses it a lot :P
20:01:27 <quintopia> AGH transmission is broked? i have moblock stopped and it still claims even port 80 is closed >_>
20:01:38 <fizzie> I guess it's some sort of side-profile two-eyes-on-one-side style maybe?
20:02:06 <elliott> quintopia: something else is most likely broked
20:02:26 <Mathnerd314> elliott: deluge won't accept that magnet link
20:02:38 <elliott> fizzie: I have an excellent depiction of :V here, but it in a badly-drawn comic that's blatantly offensive for no reason at all.
20:02:43 <elliott> Mathnerd314: sec
20:02:51 <quintopia> well, transmission is the only thing unable to make connections, so i don't know what else it could be
20:02:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: what does it say? o_O
20:03:08 <pikhq> elliott: Gnip
20:03:11 <Mathnerd314> it doesn't; it just... fail
20:03:14 <Mathnerd314> *s
20:03:20 <elliott> Mathnerd314: lemme try pikhq :P
20:03:23 <elliott> pikhq: magnet:?xt=urn:btih:7vkkdjq6tbcdycyis5akgfv7znw6iwal
20:03:39 <Vorpal> elliott, "<elliott> Vorpal: you're not very common on irc" <-- if you meant I was wrong:
20:03:47 <Vorpal> select a.cnt / b.cnt from (select count(*) as cnt from irc.logs where body like '-%') as a, (select count(*) as cnt from irc.logs) as b;
20:03:48 <Vorpal> gave 0
20:03:48 <elliott> Vorpal: i was joking.
20:03:54 <Mathnerd314> elliott: maybe it got truncated
20:03:56 <Vorpal> in total numbers:
20:04:04 <elliott> Mathnerd314: nope
20:04:09 <elliott> i even chopped off the name from the end
20:04:17 <pikhq> elliott: Waiting on yonder DHT
20:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, 3229 / 1861108
20:04:23 <elliott> Vorpal: wouldn't it be 0 for all <0.5 though?
20:04:26 <Vorpal> elliott, that is insignificantly few :P
20:04:35 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, I thought it would be float?
20:04:38 <Vorpal> oh maybe not
20:04:38 <pikhq> elliott: What is it, BTW?
20:04:39 <elliott> not if it gives 0
20:04:45 <Vorpal> true
20:04:46 <elliott> pikhq: Transmission 2.10 :P
20:04:49 <elliott> pikhq: It didn't work for Mathnerd314
20:04:51 <elliott> So it might not work for you
20:04:55 <elliott> (his rejected the magnet link)
20:05:01 <elliott> But he does use EVIL EVIL DELUGE
20:05:02 <pikhq> elliott: What you seeding it with?
20:05:06 <Vorpal> >>> 3229 / 1861108.0
20:05:06 <Vorpal> 0.0017349879749052714
20:05:07 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway ^
20:05:10 <Vorpal> that is tiny
20:05:11 <elliott> pikhq: qBittorrent.
20:05:23 <Vorpal> elliott, less than 0.2 %
20:05:29 <pikhq> "DHT disabled" WHAAAT
20:05:38 <elliott> pikhq: wat :P
20:06:31 <elliott> fizzie: Admittedly that depiction sheds no light whatsoever on what :V actually represents.
20:06:40 * pikhq puts it into Transmission
20:06:55 <elliott> pikhq: CASCADE WOULD WORK
20:07:05 <pikhq> elliott: CASCADE WOULD BE AWESOME
20:08:06 <Mathnerd314> what was cascade again? the trackerless bittorent client?
20:08:08 <Vorpal> elliott, what depiction?
20:08:23 <Vorpal> oh up there
20:08:30 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Or, in this case, just my platonic ideal BitTorrent client :P
20:08:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, graph request: a pie chart or something over the different smiles used in here!
20:09:37 * Mathnerd314 has one DHT node :-/
20:10:02 <Vorpal> Mathnerd314, I had 500 within seconds of starting ktorrent
20:10:24 <Mathnerd314> they've been steadily decreasing since I opened Deluge
20:10:31 <elliott> from 0 to 1?
20:10:37 <elliott> pikhq: How goes it
20:10:42 <Vorpal> Mathnerd314, sounds like a shitty bittorrent client
20:10:57 <elliott> Vorpal: like ktorrent
20:11:14 <Vorpal> elliott, ktorrent managed just fine
20:11:36 <Vorpal> elliott, just took a few minutes to to sucky router making forwarding the port impossible
20:11:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Download magnet:?xt=urn:btih:7vkkdjq6tbcdycyis5akgfv7znw6iwal, then!
20:11:50 <elliott> Maybe *you'll* have all the luck.
20:11:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how large is it?
20:12:06 <elliott> Vorpal: 2.2 MiB. Easy enough to cancel.
20:12:08 <elliott> pikhq: I can see you.
20:12:10 <elliott> pikhq: But you're at 0%.
20:12:10 <Vorpal> elliott, and what is it?
20:12:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Transmission 2.10. It's just to see if I can make trackerless torrents work.
20:12:24 <elliott> Source .tar.xz.
20:12:36 <elliott> ALTERNATE ANSWER: Child pornography
20:12:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I will go as far as it popping up the file dialog, then no further
20:12:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, why?
20:12:48 <Vorpal> elliott, should show if it works at least
20:12:51 <elliott> No it shouldn't.
20:12:55 <elliott> They only show after it finds it on DHT.
20:12:57 <elliott> Duh.
20:13:02 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
20:13:05 <Vorpal> that was my point
20:13:06 <elliott> All that would tell you is that... it can parse a magnet link.
20:13:10 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, no, I have peers
20:13:13 <Vorpal> elliott, and that DHT works
20:13:14 <elliott> They just aren't downloading from me
20:13:20 <elliott> Vorpal: so you'd have to get at least a byte
20:13:21 <Vorpal> elliott, ah I can test that
20:13:25 <Vorpal> once it find it
20:13:27 <pikhq> elliott: I can see you but I've got no metadata.
20:13:32 <elliott> pikhq: Whaat
20:13:43 <pikhq> elliott: You are sending me none of the metadata you whore.
20:13:54 <elliott> pikhq: ;_; not my fault
20:14:09 <elliott> pikhq: how did you seed with qbittorrent?
20:14:18 <pikhq> elliott: ... I just plugged in the torrent.
20:14:20 <pikhq> No magic.
20:14:39 <elliott> pikhq: wait.
20:14:43 <elliott> pikhq: Could the fact that I lowercased the-- no.
20:14:45 <elliott> Worked for me.
20:15:15 <pikhq> elliott: URIs are case insensitive.
20:15:15 <Vorpal> elliott, not much DHT luck on this one so far
20:15:22 <elliott> pikhq: No they're not.
20:15:30 <elliott> http://fuckbutts.com/PoOp != /poop
20:15:46 <pikhq> Aaargh, right.
20:15:53 <pikhq> It's just the domain name that's case insensitive.
20:15:54 <elliott> pikhq: But yeah no that's not it.
20:16:02 <elliott> pikhq: WHY WON'T YOU DOWNLOAD
20:16:04 <Vorpal> elliott, http://example.com/ == http://EXAMPLE.com/
20:16:05 <elliott> pikhq: Try loading it in another client
20:16:07 <Vorpal> though
20:16:47 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe the error is on your side?
20:16:54 <Vorpal> elliott, one peer on the magnet
20:17:01 * Mathnerd314 wonders if clicking on http://fuckbutts.com/PoOp is a bad idea
20:17:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and then back to 0
20:17:16 <Vorpal> wtf
20:17:23 <Vorpal> that is shitty
20:17:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: redirects to teenflesh.com/PoOp which is 404'd
20:17:42 <elliott> Vorpal: It may be on my side.
20:17:45 <elliott> That is what I am trying to figure out.
20:17:48 <elliott> It probably is, even.
20:17:53 <elliott> pikhq: Do I need to forward any ports on UDP?
20:17:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I had one magnet peer, then a few seconds 0
20:17:59 <elliott> I have 6881 on UDP and <long port> on TCP.
20:18:07 <elliott> The long port one is the one I have set in qBittorrent.
20:18:14 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I'm currently connected to a KTorrent in Norway.
20:18:24 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to set an udp port for DHT
20:18:27 <pikhq> DHT's still bootstrapping, though.
20:18:42 <pikhq> elliott: Yes.
20:18:48 <elliott> pikhq: What, then?
20:18:49 <Vorpal> I have now again one magnet peer
20:18:59 <pikhq> elliott: Depends on the client; should be the same as the TCP port.
20:19:06 <elliott> pikhq: I'll do that now.
20:19:09 <Vorpal> still not enough to download the magnet it seems
20:19:20 <pikhq> elliott: This would actually explain some of the difficulty you've had with it.
20:19:25 <pikhq> elliott: Now I see you.
20:19:30 <pikhq> And am downloading.
20:19:30 <pikhq> \o/
20:19:33 <elliott> pikhq: I did nothing...
20:19:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm
20:19:46 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, guess we needed to wait, then.
20:19:50 <Vorpal> accept the fact: DHT is slow
20:19:51 <elliott> pikhq: But I forwarded UDP now too.
20:19:53 <elliott> Vorpal: It isn't.
20:19:58 <elliott> I got pikhq's file very quickly.
20:20:05 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, pure luck
20:20:08 <elliott> Just because you want to explain this away as being slow doesn't mean that is the explanation.
20:20:11 <pikhq> And I got elliot's within a minute.
20:20:15 <elliott> TWO TS
20:20:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I very much doubt you know a single thing about how DHT works theoretically or practically. Explain a DHT to me in theoretical terms.
20:20:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: We're testing the *slowest possible case* for DHT.
20:20:37 <catseye> oerjan: i was also considering giving a rewriting semantics for a rewriting language (in some way that isn't trivially meta-circular)...
20:20:40 <elliott> If you can't, how can you possibly explain why DHT is slow?
20:20:46 <elliott> It is fast.
20:20:53 <elliott> Every problem we have had was due to misconfiguration.
20:20:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, and now I'm seeding to you.
20:20:54 <Vorpal> qbittorrent in US? Is that pikhq?
20:20:58 <elliott> Yes.
20:20:59 <pikhq> Yes.
20:21:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, see how useful the country thingy was :P
20:21:04 <elliott> pikhq: You have the file now?
20:21:05 <elliott> You just dropped off.
20:21:10 <pikhq> elliott: Yes.
20:21:12 <Vorpal> err, redirect that to elliott
20:21:19 <catseye> as for botchars, ~ is alright. % and & are ugly. | might be ok.
20:21:21 <elliott> pikhq: Now I'll try another!~
20:21:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't see you
20:21:35 <elliott> Vorpal: I just saw you. Briefly.
20:21:38 <elliott> Now pikhq is back.
20:21:48 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
20:21:49 <elliott> pikhq has a phatter pipe than me, so it's probably preferring him.
20:22:09 <pikhq> Anyways, we have been testing the slowest possible case for DHT, and it's taking not too long to work.
20:22:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, your upload speed must be horrible to live with
20:22:24 <elliott> ITT: people don't allocate full bandwidth to torrents
20:22:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: I'm seeding *oodles* of other things.
20:22:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yes
20:22:33 <Vorpal> even so
20:22:34 <elliott> <pikhq> Vorpal: I'm seeding *oodles* of other things.
20:22:35 <Vorpal> elliott, see you
20:22:42 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't see that one
20:22:58 <pikhq> I usually have something like 100-200 kbps up.
20:23:01 <catseye> need dedicated routers optimized for dht to reinvent internets
20:23:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, around 100 for me
20:23:53 <pikhq> Anyways. If you do this on an even *slightly* popular torrent, then it works nearly instantly.
20:24:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed
20:24:16 <pikhq> And with 2 peers you may have to wait a bit.
20:24:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, 3 now, I'm still seeding it
20:24:36 <pikhq> Mmmf.
20:24:41 <elliott> Anyone want another file?!?!?!?!
20:24:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, ratio limit is set at 1.50 here by default
20:24:48 <Vorpal> elliott, not really no
20:24:53 <Vorpal> wait, I could try it
20:25:02 * Vorpal looks for a suitable file
20:25:03 <pikhq> elliott: No, but I'm going to demonstrate how fast I can download a vaguely popular torrent. :)
20:25:10 <Vorpal> small I guess
20:25:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Make sure to strip trackers out of the .torrent!
20:25:14 <elliott> And... and everything!
20:25:19 <elliott> pikhq: BUT MY FILE
20:25:19 <pikhq> Single episode of a currently airing show, away!
20:25:23 <elliott> It's even original content.
20:25:26 <Vorpal> elliott, of course, and starting IPs too
20:25:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Edit the .torrent and remove everything from "10:" to the encoding field (with the number before it).
20:25:49 <elliott> Once you've removed then.
20:25:53 <elliott> That's the smallest possible torrent for that file.
20:26:00 <elliott> Also, strip out everything after the ?xt= in the magnet URI.
20:26:14 <pikhq> elliott: Dude. Torrentz indexes the infohash of a torrent.
20:26:27 <pikhq> elliott: You can go completely without any of the indexes the torrent file is on.
20:26:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't need to upload the torrent file or?
20:26:40 <elliott> pikhq: Eh?
20:26:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, no.
20:26:52 <pikhq> You'll just need to turn it into a magnet URI (prefix magnet:?xt=urn:btih:) and you can download it.
20:26:54 <Vorpal> elliott, right
20:26:55 <elliott> Vorpal: As long as anyone who has it's client is on and connected to DHT, it will work.
20:27:05 <elliott> pikhq: I don't get the relevance to torrentz.
20:27:05 <pikhq> elliott: And if you prefer to do it "right" you can also include the trackers.
20:27:15 <pikhq> elliott: Torrentz stores the infohashes for torrents.
20:27:20 <elliott> And?
20:27:22 <elliott> Oh.
20:27:23 <elliott> Oh I see.
20:27:24 <Vorpal> elliott, looking for a suitable file
20:27:26 <elliott> pikhq: Awesome.
20:27:27 <pikhq> :D
20:27:28 <elliott> Vorpal: /vmlinuz
20:27:42 <elliott> pikhq: omg cascade will so open torrentz.com URLs
20:27:46 <Vorpal> elliott, no such file :P
20:27:49 <elliott> pikhq: by using the info hash and importing the trackers
20:27:53 <Vorpal> elliott, found a file at 4.6 MB
20:27:55 <elliott> Vorpal: you know what i mean
20:27:58 <Vorpal> and slightly interesting
20:28:03 <Vorpal> more than my kernel anyway
20:28:19 <elliott> DOES NOBODY WANT THE 10.7 KIB FILE
20:28:22 <pikhq> elliott: Gotta love magnet URIs.
20:28:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sure, why not; here's some raw data: http://p.zem.fi/esosmile -- note that several (at least "Bo", "BC", "XX" and so) are somewhat likely to not be actually used in a smiley context; maybe I should add some "not immediately surrounded by alphanumerics" additions.
20:28:51 <elliott> We are a very worrisome people.
20:29:00 <elliott> :-(
20:29:06 <elliott> :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-(
20:29:44 <Vorpal> elliott, it says I must add at least one node to the dht thingy
20:29:45 <Vorpal> weird
20:29:57 <Vorpal> elliott, what am I supposed to do there
20:30:05 <elliott> Vorpal: your client is a nazi
20:30:09 <elliott> use transmission to create the torrent instead
20:30:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: The preliminary spec says that you need to list a DHT node in the torrent. De facto, it's optional.
20:30:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah, so it follows the spec
20:30:33 <elliott> the preliminary spec.
20:30:37 <quintopia> fizzie: needs moar >_>
20:31:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: If it actually followed the spec that would be unimplemented.
20:31:28 <pikhq> As would IPv6 support.
20:32:07 <elliott> Psht.
20:32:10 <elliott> People hate my files and I hate them.
20:32:17 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/esosmile-2 has top-100 instead of top-50, and additional (?<!\w) in front and (?!\w) at end.
20:32:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, can I just strip the e5:nodesll12: bit
20:32:35 <Vorpal> from the torrent file
20:32:44 <quintopia> fizzie: would it match >________________________________________> ?
20:32:48 <elliott> Only if you understand bencode.
20:32:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah.
20:32:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, that seems to be the only mention of the dummy ip I added
20:33:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about the eeee?
20:33:05 <fizzie> quintopia: No, it's a bit limited. It only considers things that match (?<!\w)>?[:;XB8|][=^-]?[()Xx/\|\[\]pPdDoOCcVv#&$*<>{}](?!\w)|\(?[:;^'>][_-][:;^'<]\)? to be smileys.
20:33:16 <pikhq> That may be the end of a dictionary entry.
20:33:20 <pikhq> Hard to tell without context.
20:33:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, last thing in file
20:33:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, if that helps
20:33:52 <elliott> By not downloading my new file, you are holding back the DHTnet!
20:34:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: You should be able to remove the "5:nodesll12:" just fine.
20:34:53 <pikhq> The preceding e is the end of the info dictionary, the following e is the end of the whole file.
20:34:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, I removed e5nodes.... until the 4 e
20:35:03 <Vorpal> it worked to load
20:35:13 <pikhq> Eeeh, accepting parser.
20:35:24 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:35:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, magnet:?xt=urn:btih:0888e352cd42c175cd00041ee3a0d080f494d642 there is some &dn=filename stuff there, I guess I can cut that away :P
20:35:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, lenient in what you accent and stringent in what you send
20:35:48 <Vorpal> I guess
20:35:55 <elliott> worst phrasing of postel's law ever
20:36:06 <pikhq> Anyways. I plugged in a lightly popular torrent's infohash to my client, and it started downloading from pretty much all of the hosts instantly.
20:36:06 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, but I'm lazy
20:36:14 <quintopia> fizzie: i'm a bit fuzzy on my regexes, but wouldn't [_-] -> [[_]*-] or something like that fix it?
20:36:15 <Vorpal> accept*
20:36:19 <Vorpal> elliott, weird typo even
20:36:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and nice stats
20:36:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, is BO really a smiley though?
20:36:56 <fizzie> quintopia: Not exactly, you can't repeat inside a [] character list.
20:36:58 <pikhq> Granted, only a small amount came from DHT; after it got started on DHT, everyone else jumped on via peer exchange.
20:37:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Probably not; I don't see BO in the -2 version.
20:37:27 <Vorpal> oh
20:37:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is a new one?
20:37:36 <elliott> Vorpal: This may take a while.
20:37:37 <Vorpal> ah
20:37:42 <Vorpal> elliott, what? that magnet? yes
20:37:48 <quintopia> fizzie: how is it you do "either this character or one or more of those characters"? I know a + must be involved...
20:37:49 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't do IPv6.
20:37:49 <fizzie> Even in -2, the "BC" is most likely not a smiley.
20:37:52 <elliott> So this will actually never work.
20:37:57 * elliott removes it
20:38:10 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, how comes it worked from me to you
20:38:15 <Vorpal> elliott, if I don't do ipv4
20:38:26 <elliott> Vorpal: You clearly do IPv4 for peers.
20:38:26 <fizzie> quintopia: (x|y+) would work for "x or one or more y's". Or (?:x|y+) if the ()-capturing matters.
20:38:28 <elliott> Just not for seeding.
20:38:37 <Vorpal> elliott, hm perhaps
20:38:48 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I do seed for tcp
20:38:53 <Vorpal> elliott, tcp forwarding works fine
20:39:08 <Vorpal> elliott, meh I'll try to fix the udp thingy for ipv4
20:39:14 <quintopia> fizzie: so make it (-|_+)
20:39:19 <elliott> pikhq: TOTALLY MY NEW FILE RIGHT?
20:39:35 <Vorpal> elliott, if I time out you know I failed and I'm busy doing a factory reset to fix it :P
20:39:36 <quintopia> and add > to the class after that
20:39:55 <Vorpal> huh
20:39:58 <Vorpal> it just worked this time
20:39:59 <Vorpal> wtf
20:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott, in theory ipv4 should now work
20:40:27 <Vorpal> elliott, try it
20:40:31 <Vorpal> elliott, might take some time though
20:40:32 <elliott> Doing so.
20:40:34 <elliott> Started now.
20:40:40 <elliott> I'll say when I get a peer.
20:40:47 <pikhq> elliott: No.
20:40:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, you too
20:41:39 <elliott> Got a peer.
20:41:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I see you
20:41:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh no, not a fucking panorama. Fuck you.
20:42:05 * elliott downloads only grudgingly
20:42:12 <elliott> (to support new appliactions of DHT technology)
20:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a small one
20:42:19 <elliott> FUCKING PANORAMAS
20:42:20 <elliott> FUCK!
20:42:23 <Vorpal> elliott, why?
20:42:32 <Vorpal> elliott, be happy I didn't pick a 70 MB tiff one
20:42:33 <elliott> You are obsessed with them :P
20:42:54 <Vorpal> elliott, besides this is an old one
20:42:56 <elliott> File downloaded. I refuse to seed and will now delete it. But it worked, and amazingly quickly.
20:43:19 <Vorpal> elliott, don't you plan to look at it?
20:43:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, fine.
20:43:37 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, it was 1 minute from me adding it to the download starting, almost exactly.
20:43:40 <elliott> Still think DHT is slow?
20:43:51 <Vorpal> elliott, somewhat yes :P, slower than tracker certainly
20:43:53 <elliott> Note that nobody else was seeding it and I was the first person to ask for it, pretty much.
20:43:55 <Vorpal> for worst case
20:44:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Also a whole lot less painful than a tracker. ...and no legal grey areas for those who operate the trackers, either.
20:44:27 <elliott> Publishing a magnet URI is surely legal as it amounts to posting a file list with sizes and checksums.
20:44:37 <elliott> (Of course the *US* courts can always bullshit their way around this...)
20:44:45 <elliott> Well, it's publishing a HASH of a file list with sizes and checksums.
20:44:46 <pikhq> elliott: Nay, it amounts to posting a single checksum.
20:44:49 <Vorpal> elliott, hm perhaps I should seed some combination of envbot, cfunge, and efunge packed up in lisp.tar.xz (Lots of Interesting Software Packages) :D
20:44:56 <Vorpal> oh wait, I gave it away ;)
20:45:14 <elliott> pikhq: not if you have multiple files in the torrent
20:45:27 <pikhq> elliott: A magnet URI is just the infohash.
20:45:31 <pikhq> Single hash.
20:45:34 <elliott> pikhq: That's what I said.
20:45:37 <elliott> <elliott> Well, it's publishing a HASH of a file list with sizes and checksums.
20:45:41 <pikhq> Which *happens* to be the index in a hash table.
20:45:57 <pikhq> Aaaargh, distinction between hash and checksum!
20:46:39 <Vorpal> seeded to a ratio of 1.65
20:46:43 <Vorpal> and no further peers
20:46:45 <Vorpal> how strange
20:46:56 <pikhq> You also seeded to me.
20:47:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, and you also got from elliott?
20:47:08 <pikhq> Yup.
20:47:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, I thought he deleted it?
20:47:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Deleting it would be spending time on that file.
20:47:28 <Vorpal> I guess not
20:47:31 <elliott> That would be giving in.
20:47:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ooh, I can inject files on your harddrive this way, that you will refuse to delete
20:48:48 <elliott> On the other hand, it is always good to stand up for what you believe in.
20:48:50 <elliott> File deleted.
20:49:21 <Vorpal> meh, bbl
20:49:27 -!- aloril has joined.
20:49:50 <Vorpal> elliott, now to try the same over usenet ;)
20:53:52 <Sgeo> What did elliott not want to spend time on?
20:54:06 <elliott> Dying my hear octarine.
20:54:30 <Sgeo> Trying to impress a lady wizard?
20:54:37 <Sgeo> Also, *hair
20:54:55 * Sgeo ponders for a bit
20:55:08 <Sgeo> Hmm, there's at least one female wizard
20:57:05 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/smile.png -- smile distributions for four randomly (okay, not so randomly) chosen on-channel people and then ten globally most popular preset smileys.
20:57:45 <fizzie> Things to note: ais is a very unhappy person, and I can't keep my tongue in my mouth.
20:58:09 <elliott> ais just needs hugs.
20:58:38 <elliott> fizzie: That plot... it's...
20:58:44 <Sgeo> ghci > hugs
20:58:45 <elliott> fizzie: Ever heard of a bar chart?
20:59:26 <fizzie> elliott: Gnuplot sucks badly when it comes to those. (Okay, so they can be done, but it's horrible fiddling for multi-bar cases, needs bar-widths and manual X position adjustments.)
20:59:52 <fizzie> Besides, using line points like that to show multidimensional data has a long tradition. There's even a name for it, I think.
21:01:36 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_coordinates
21:02:01 <fizzie> I guess it shouldn't have the points in that case.
21:03:41 <Sgeo> Xom is BORED
21:04:11 <Gregor> There is no Xom. There is only Zuul.
21:04:32 * Zuu cuddles Gregor
21:04:37 <Zuu> And Zuu !
21:04:50 <Gregor> Zuu is just Zuul missing an 'l'
21:05:04 <Zuu> Yes, soneone stole it :P
21:05:21 <Gregor> Presumably the person who owns the nick "Zuul" on FreeNode!
21:05:36 <Zuu> Ohnoes!
21:06:02 <Gregor> It is the nineties and there is time for RETRIBUTION!
21:06:15 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Hmm, there's at least one female wizard <-- who made appearances in two books yes
21:06:30 <Sgeo> Two? I thought just one
21:06:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, ignore that, spoiler for very recent book
21:06:48 <Sgeo> Unless there's a newer book... ah
21:06:51 <Vorpal> well, not much a spoiler really
21:07:01 <Sgeo> I haven't been keeping up :(
21:07:04 <Vorpal> more of cameo appearance :P
21:07:12 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:08:09 <elliott> CUDDLE ORGY
21:08:10 <elliott> (wat)
21:08:17 <pikhq> I still love how a single hash is sufficient for BitTorrent.
21:08:25 <elliott> pikhq: Only because of DHT.
21:08:37 <elliott> pikhq: Now srsly, tell me you don't want to reinvent the internet by writing an awesome DHT and building everything on top of it.
21:08:38 <pikhq> elliott: Yes. And it is wonderful.
21:08:42 <elliott> (Freenet doesn't actually use a DHT.)
21:08:55 <pikhq> s/Internet/web/
21:09:33 <Gregor> s/web/webertubes/
21:09:34 <pikhq> (traditional switched networking is *definitely* better for certain things. A DHT is awesome for the web, though.)
21:10:00 <pikhq> Gaaah. Another reason we should have global multicast.
21:10:10 <pikhq> We could replace IRC with inherently multicast chatrooms.
21:10:14 <pikhq> THINK ABOUT IT.
21:10:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess mail and irc would be examples where traditional is better
21:10:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, also think of ajax
21:10:28 * Gregor sneezes, accidentally mentioning the recent trend towards "data-oriented networking" (hint: Google that term!) and how that makes more sense ...
21:10:57 <Gregor> Won't somebody think of the AJAX???
21:11:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, I never said I liked ajax, but it is sadly here, and does seem to want to stay
21:12:51 <pikhq> Gregor: BUTBUTHASHES
21:13:08 <Gregor> pikhq: BUTBUT all data-oriented networking systems are based on hashes.
21:13:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, one thing I never understood with multicast: how would core routers on the internet know where to forward it, or would they actually broadcast it?
21:13:41 <elliott> <pikhq> (traditional switched networking is *definitely* better for certain things. A DHT is awesome for the web, though.)
21:13:45 <elliott> NO IT WILL REPLACE ... SOME THINGS
21:14:10 <elliott> pikhq: What we should replace IRC with is my protocol.
21:14:16 <pikhq> Gregor: YES
21:14:31 <elliott> Which was automatically democratic, totally encrypted and totally decentralised! Think DirectNet but way better.
21:14:43 <elliott> Because DirectNet is basically shovelled donkey shit on a steaming plate full of crap, served with piss.
21:14:46 <elliott> And its author is a tramp.
21:14:50 <elliott> Who rapes taxis.
21:15:00 <elliott> Good thing I have no idea who he is at all!
21:15:07 <elliott> And will never come into contact with him!
21:16:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: ... They know which nearby routers need the multicast stream.
21:16:27 <Vorpal> pikhq ah
21:16:44 <pikhq> Sorry, which nearby *hosts*.
21:16:47 <Vorpal> right
21:16:48 <pikhq> Not necessarily a router.
21:16:56 <pikhq> It's the same protocol for both.
21:17:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, there is protocol to broadcast streams you want?
21:17:30 <Vorpal> is some*
21:17:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, how do you implement it on LAN level
21:17:53 <Vorpal> multicast MACs?
21:18:45 <quintopia> SWEET
21:18:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: IGMP is used to advertise that you want to join a stream.
21:18:55 * quintopia read up a bit
21:19:01 * quintopia spotted a cuddle orgy
21:19:03 <Sgeo> I.... clicked on a link to install Google ... voice and video thingy
21:19:06 * quintopia cuddles elliott
21:19:09 <Sgeo> And it just started installing
21:19:10 <Sgeo> WTF
21:19:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: You need at least one multicast router to have it work on a LAN.
21:19:29 <quintopia> is there a cuddle protocol for DHT?
21:19:32 -!- aloril has joined.
21:19:55 <pikhq> This does not necessarily have to be an IP router, especially if you don't want the multicast to propagate outside of your LAN.
21:21:05 <pikhq> Also, there's a defined set of multicast MACs; switches will either figure out which hosts want packets from which multicast MACs or just broadcast the multicast MACs, and let listeners discard unwanted packets.
21:22:51 <elliott> pikhq is now ignoring me in shame.
21:24:19 <quintopia> everybody get up, it's time to slam now. here's yo chance, do yo dance at the space jam!
21:24:51 * elliott stabs quintopia
21:25:44 <Sgeo> Isn't there another elliott?
21:26:07 <elliott> In the world?
21:26:13 <elliott> Probably, but I have his name.
21:26:18 <elliott> And he or she can't gave it.
21:26:25 <elliott> Sucks to be every Elliott but me.
21:26:26 <Sgeo> I meant in this channel
21:26:31 <elliott> Oh, elliottcable?
21:26:37 <Sgeo> Yes
21:26:43 <elliott> He's just a moron that came by once or twice to plug his shitty not-esoteric-at-all language.
21:26:55 <elliott> He also did bullshit in #ircnomic.
21:27:11 <elliott> Specifically he was part of the Fuck Up The Ruleset Overnight Because We're 10 Years Old brigade.
21:27:14 <nooga> LEODRT
21:27:28 <elliott> He's also a Republican. In Alaska. That means he supported Palin.
21:27:42 <quintopia> *Phallin
21:28:07 <elliott> Phallusian.
21:28:36 <pikhq> elliott: Cascade should support downloading things with just an info hash.
21:28:42 <elliott> pikhq: DUH of course it will.
21:28:45 <elliott> pikhq: Why wouldn't it?
21:28:48 <nooga> drunken electronic musicians from denmark tried to make me to show my cock to them
21:28:53 <pikhq> Lots of things don't. Dunno why.
21:29:05 <Sgeo> http://www.thestar.com/news/torontog20summit/article/875746--accused-g20-ringleader-faces-breach-of-rights-lawyer-says?bn=1
21:29:07 <nooga> how crazy is that?
21:33:26 <elliott> That's Denmark for you.
21:37:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, I wish the SixXS POP that I used was connected to mbone
21:37:11 <Vorpal> some of them are
21:37:24 <catseye> "lenient in what you accent and strident in what you send"
21:37:36 <catseye> sort of a warped postel's law for musicians and poets
21:37:44 <Vorpal> catseye, did I really write "strident"?
21:37:52 <catseye> no, that's my innovation.
21:37:55 <Vorpal> ah
21:37:59 <catseye> i am forking your misquote
21:38:15 <Vorpal> catseye, ah, as long as you clearly mark it as a derivative
21:39:24 <catseye> SBO elvis is aghast
21:39:53 <catseye> SBC elvis is extremely disappointed
21:40:53 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:40:56 <quintopia> i like it\
21:41:02 <Gregor> I don't think I've ever seen more lines in a row that are completely incomprehensible.
21:41:04 <quintopia> can we call it "catseye's law"?
21:43:06 <catseye> The Postel-Vorpal-Catseye Law of Stuff and Things
21:43:29 <catseye> to acknowledge its lineage, you see
21:43:39 <Sgeo> Gregor, I can start spamming
21:44:05 <oerjan> PVC law, ok
21:44:12 <quintopia> i was gonna suggest PVC also
21:44:15 <quintopia> that's settled then
21:44:52 <oerjan> after all, Stuff and Things is mainly plastic
21:45:21 <Gregor> But ... but ... <3 PVC
21:45:48 <Gregor> You can't just take the name of a fine plumbing-slash-musical-instrument material!
21:45:57 <oerjan> sure, you can <3 PVC all you want. but be careful about asphyxiation.
21:46:21 <Gregor> oerjan: You don't <3 pipe with your mouth ...
21:46:45 <quintopia> car Gregor | ./BlueManGroup
21:46:48 <quintopia> *cat
21:46:58 <Gregor> Pffff, PVC percussion is too easy.
21:47:07 <oerjan> Gregor: i was more thinking bags here. hm maybe that's not pvc?
21:47:14 <Gregor> I prefer PVC winds and PVC horns.
21:47:19 <Gregor> oerjan: Prooooooooobably not PVC.
21:47:25 <quintopia> when was the last time you wrote a song for pipedrum organ, Gregor?
21:47:40 <Gregor> quintopia: My PVC instruments are all in the wind/horn family!
21:47:52 <oerjan> hm there definitely are PVC plastic bags
21:48:04 <Gregor> oerjan: Pfff, when I think PVC I think PVC pipe :P
21:48:17 <catseye> "Plastic shopping bags are usually made of polyethylene." claims wp
21:48:20 <quintopia> gregor: the pipe percussion instruments need your love too
21:48:37 <quintopia> oh, my id card is pvc too
21:56:40 <Vorpal> <Gregor> I don't think I've ever seen more lines in a row that are completely incomprehensible. <-- where?
21:58:39 <oerjan> wait, you mean he _wasn't_ talking about the channel?
21:58:48 <Vorpal> catseye maybe "lenient in what you accent and strident in what you scent"
22:00:06 <Vorpal> <quintopia> gregor: the pipe percussion instruments need your love too <-- pipe percussion... would that be like tubular bells?
22:00:10 <elliott> wait what was i going to reinvent in a minute?
22:00:28 <Vorpal> elliott, you were about to reinvent the NIH syndrome.
22:01:12 <quintopia> Vorpal: google drumbone
22:01:20 <catseye> NIByMe[TM]
22:01:40 <catseye> elliott: dht-ized dns
22:02:08 <Vorpal> quintopia, why is google picture results full of fake-looking aliens...
22:02:34 <catseye> wh... Vorpal is not familiar with Blue Man Group, I infer.
22:02:45 <Vorpal> catseye, ah. Fitting name
22:04:24 <oerjan> elliott: a cure against amnesia
22:04:46 <fizzie> With the leg bone connected to the MBONE... *humm humm*
22:05:03 <elliott> i disapprove of archaeology
22:05:33 <oerjan> yeah who cares about archs anyway
22:05:52 <fizzie> We used to get some sort of strange, academic multicasts back in the student housing, when it was a direct part of Funet/NORDUnet.
22:06:15 <quintopia> vorpal: pick a video. watch.
22:06:41 <oerjan> and now you cannot have fun any longer?
22:07:36 <fizzie> I don't live there any more; they moved the student network outside the university netblocks for securitamantic reasons, but it might be it still is Funet'd with fun.
22:07:58 <fizzie> "Funet participates in inter-domain multicast routing and is connected to other academic networks and communities as Internet2 via NORDUnet and Géant2."
22:08:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, I did that already
22:08:26 <Vorpal> (which why I didn't respond right away)
22:08:30 <Vorpal> very interesting sound
22:09:33 <Vorpal> <fizzie> With the leg bone connected to the MBONE... *humm humm* <-- what
22:09:33 <quintopia> Vorpal is going to the concert here in januaryish
22:09:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh, a pun
22:09:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, wherever "here" is
22:10:03 <quintopia> i've only been to one live show, and it was the stage show
22:10:12 <quintopia> they're doing the rock concert though
22:10:21 <Vorpal> quintopia, do they keep sane level on the speakers?
22:10:24 <fizzie> Oh, and the student-run cable TV network still sticks the Finnish DVB streams directly into the IP network with multicast; technically it means that everyone with a networked computer (i.e. everyone) should be obligated to pay the "TV fee" (it's based on "being able to receive TV broadcasts", not actually doing that), but very few do.
22:10:38 <Vorpal> quintopia, all non-classical concerts/live shows I been to have been way too high volume
22:11:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, fun
22:11:36 <quintopia> Vorpal: who knows? it depends on the venue doesn't it? and where you sit too...
22:12:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, err, how does one mess with multicast under linux?
22:12:28 <Vorpal> as in, what tools and such
22:12:42 <Vorpal> quintopia, mhm
22:12:47 <Vorpal> quintopia, usually quite far back
22:12:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: You used an appropriate word: it is indeed a mess.
22:12:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh
22:13:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or rather, multicast routing is a mess. Just being an end node in a multicast network is no problem and happens pretty automagically, but if you have a single router-Linux and want the LAN behind it to be able to participate in the joys of multicast, then *that* is a mess.
22:14:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, lets assume I want my ipv6 linux router/tunnel end point to also do multicast?
22:15:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, and lets further assume I want to know how you act as a node
22:15:12 <Vorpal> I have no idea where to start with it
22:15:48 <elliott> OH YES Cascade
22:15:58 <elliott> pikhq: Fund Cascade development.
22:16:40 <elliott> pikhq: Or else.
22:17:43 <fizzie> Well, "uh." I'm not exactly sure on the v6 side, actually. If you just want to act as a node, you shouldn't need to have to configure absolutely anything; it's all done with MLD, which does multicast discovery using ICMPv6 packets. Any applications you have just register to groups and start magically seeing the packets, and multicasting outside works equally magically.
22:18:00 <fizzie> But that assumes you have a multicast-enabled router there to handle it.
22:18:29 <fizzie> (On v4, the same magic is done with IGMP.)
22:19:03 <elliott> I know of at least one band whose show regularly reaches dB levels higher than a jet engine taking off...
22:20:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: As for routing, you need a router daemon, and for IPv4 they all were either completely abandoned projects, or horribly hairy systems that assumed you were doing BGP peering with your neighbours. From what I hear, though, is that for IPv6 multicast, http://fivebits.net/proj/mrd6/ is actually a pretty lean solution. It does mostly everything in userspace, but that's just a design detail.
22:21:14 <fizzie> For routing IPv4 multicast, it's... worse. (Though if you don't mind doing everything completely statically, there's smcroute.)
22:22:51 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:23:11 <fizzie> Though now that I look at it, it actually seems that pimd has been revived from the "retired" status -- http://freshmeat.net/projects/pimd -- too.
22:23:58 <fizzie> I'd go with mrd6 if your scenario is "v6 tunnel with the other end offering multicast"; it's what they do.
22:25:43 <catseye> Ahem. Sorry.
22:25:47 * catseye regains his composure
22:26:08 <elliott> BGP
22:26:12 <catseye> AHHHHHHHHH
22:26:14 <catseye> stop that!
22:26:31 <quintopia> border gateway protocol
22:26:43 <catseye> Strangely, when expanded, it has no effect on me.
22:27:06 <quintopia> bgpbgpbgpbgpbgpbgp
22:27:31 <catseye> Actually, my knowledge of it is indirect -- I have only seen what it has done to friends of mine who were all into the networking and all.
22:27:57 <quintopia> vicarious suffering then
22:28:00 * catseye shields himself by parsing that as "b,gpb,gpb,..."
22:28:09 <quintopia> ah yes
22:28:14 <quintopia> georgia public broadcasting
22:28:19 <quintopia> an excellent pbs provider
22:30:29 <oerjan> uorygl posted this on reddit: http://cis.gvsu.edu/~swettt/crc.htm
22:31:22 <elliott> pikhq: CASCADE
22:31:38 <elliott> oerjan: That...
22:31:39 <quintopia> oerjan: what is the purpose?
22:31:53 <elliott> oerjan: That is the worst clock EVER.
22:31:59 <oerjan> TO SHOW THE TIME, OF COURSE
22:32:28 <oerjan> (reddit page: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dre3b/i_made_a_chinese_remainder_theorem_clock_it_tells/)
22:32:57 <elliott> oerjan: comment on it: "Here is an svg bezier clock with spinning chinese symbols: http://joelhewitt.s3.amazonaws.com/chin-time.xml" FAIL
22:33:05 <elliott> (it just has chinese characters warped to... tell the time badly)
22:34:46 <catseye> "I saw the word 'Chinese' in your post and this guy also saw the word 'Chinese' once, maybe at a restaurant? Anyway, link."
22:36:50 <catseye> uorygl's clock would be a mite cooler with three hands
22:39:09 <elliott> catseye: with all the hands moving at once? :p
22:39:59 <catseye> elliott: naturally!
22:40:26 <quintopia> oerjan: wouldn't it be possible to tell the time for three successive days with that clock? 3600/27=133.333...
22:40:28 <fizzie> A red, green and blue progress bar on top of each other, perhaps, with the ranges scaled to the same width.
22:40:43 <quintopia> oh wait
22:40:45 <quintopia> that's one hour
22:40:46 <quintopia> nvm
22:40:51 <catseye> fizzie: !
22:41:08 <oerjan> !haskell 25*26*128/86400
22:41:19 <pikhq> fizzie: Vorpal: MLD makes it "just work".
22:41:20 <oerjan> er...
22:41:23 <pikhq> For IPv6, that is.
22:41:25 <oerjan> !haskell 25*27*128/86400
22:41:31 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: As for routing, you need a router daemon, and for IPv4 they all were either completely abandoned projects, or horribly hairy systems that assumed you were doing BGP peering with your neighbours. From what I hear, though, is that for IPv6 multicast, http://fivebits.net/proj/mrd6/ is actually a pretty lean solution. It does mostly everything in userspace, but that's just a design detail. <-- like most ipv6 routing stuff
22:41:36 <Vorpal> (in user space)
22:41:42 <catseye> EgoBot was AWOL last time there was a !haskell...
22:41:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: s/ipv6//
22:41:57 <oerjan> !help
22:42:04 <catseye> or HackEgo or whichever is repsponsibble for !
22:42:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: About the only thing that's in kernelspace for routing is the actual routing table.
22:42:16 <oerjan> `echo test
22:42:36 <oerjan> catseye: they're always slow at first, some ugly caching stuff
22:42:59 <oerjan> assuming they're actually working
22:43:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay, I have no experience with ipv4 routing under linux
22:43:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, I mean, as a router
22:43:10 <catseye> @tell oerjan mine's still working (if it is)
22:43:10 <storkbot> catseye: Consider it noted.
22:43:12 <Vorpal> only as a client there
22:43:19 <oerjan> @help
22:43:19 <storkbot> oerjan: catseye told me to tell you: mine's still working (if it is)
22:43:25 <HackEgo> test
22:43:25 <oerjan> erm...
22:43:28 <catseye> oerjan: it is a *very* stupid bot
22:43:30 <oerjan> @help
22:43:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: You run a userspace daemon that runs the actual routing protocol; it then just dumps its routing table into Linux's routing table so things actually work.
22:43:48 <Vorpal> @source
22:43:52 <quintopia> anyone know if osu! runs with Wine/Mono?
22:43:52 <Vorpal> catseye, link to source code?
22:43:55 <catseye> all of my bots hae been more exercises in bot-writing, than actual bots
22:44:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, right
22:44:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, quite sensible
22:44:11 <catseye> Vorpal: sure, so you can exploit it right? One sec
22:44:34 <pikhq> The most common one, Quagga (a fork of GNU Zebra), has an interface that's essentially a clone of the CISCO router command line.
22:44:50 -!- wareya has joined.
22:44:51 <Vorpal> catseye, yes, @tell catseye '; DROP TABLE notes; --
22:45:25 <oerjan> `perl -e 'print (25*27*128/86400);'
22:45:28 <HackEgo> No output.
22:45:32 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'print (25*27*128/86400);'
22:45:39 <HackEgo> 1
22:45:41 <pikhq> And it's totally awesome (but overkill) to use for a VPN.
22:45:43 <catseye> Vorpal: http://pastie.org/1224393
22:45:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, huh
22:45:49 <oerjan> bah truncating
22:45:55 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'print (25*27*128/86400.0);'
22:46:01 <HackEgo> 1
22:46:04 <catseye> right, like i'd go near SQL in my own code
22:46:10 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'print (25*27*128.0/86400.0);'
22:46:15 <Vorpal> catseye, I thought it used a esolang last you poked at storkbot?
22:46:22 <Vorpal> some that you were developing as you went along
22:46:29 <HackEgo> 1
22:46:32 <Vorpal> catseye, as for the sql stuff, it was obviously a joke
22:46:35 <elliott> <pikhq> The most common one, Quagga (a fork of GNU Zebra), has an interface that's essentially a clone of the CISCO router command line.
22:46:38 <elliott> CASCADE
22:46:40 <catseye> Vorpal: yeah, i basically shelved that project. it uses the same skeleton, though, so I could merge them
22:46:44 <oerjan> bah it _isn't_ truncated
22:46:58 <oerjan> `run perl -e 'print (25*27*128);'
22:46:58 <elliott> catseye: is it lua?
22:47:03 <catseye> elliott: yes
22:47:04 <HackEgo> 86400
22:47:09 <elliott> catseye: BAH
22:47:20 <oerjan> quintopia: the clock wraps exactly at one day
22:47:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, what are you trying to calculate?
22:47:30 <Vorpal> oh
22:47:43 <Vorpal> clock of what?
22:48:34 <catseye> so it is a 24-hour clock
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22:48:57 <catseye> Vorpal: uorgyl's: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dre3b/i_made_a_chinese_remainder_theorem_clock_it_tells/
22:50:00 <elliott> now develop a way to turn it into a useful time quickly without hurting my brain!
22:50:00 <catseye> elliott: the masochist in me wants to build a bot in Go
22:50:07 <elliott> catseye: oh come on, Go is a good language
22:50:15 <elliott> the literature on it isn't so great and it's idiosyncratic
22:50:22 <elliott> but it's a pretty good language
22:50:38 <catseye> what makes a language bad, exactly?
22:50:47 <elliott> bad things
22:52:38 <Vorpal> catseye, the masochist in you would prefer using that unbounded malbolge variant
22:52:52 <catseye> I should try to learn D to have a basis for comparison
22:53:01 <elliott> D is nothing like Go :P
22:53:03 <elliott> D sucks
22:53:07 <elliott> huge ass
22:53:08 <elliott> daily
22:53:09 <Vorpal> catseye, why D specifically?
22:53:17 <Vorpal> elliott, tell that to Deewiant
22:53:18 <pikhq> elliott: ... Saaay. You could make an infohash for any arbitrary file and see if there's anybody torrenting it. :P
22:53:35 * pikhq torrents the empty file
22:54:13 <elliott> pikhq: Indeed :P
22:54:21 <elliott> pikhq: But it'd only work for a correctly-named file, dude.
22:54:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, how do you make an info hash manually like that?
22:54:28 <elliott> Unless you... omitted the name... somehow...
22:54:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Use a bencode library? Or just hack a torrent file.
22:54:43 <catseye> Vorpal: because I think both Go and D are trying to fill the same niche
22:54:44 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
22:54:50 <Vorpal> elliott, "bencode"?
22:54:58 <pikhq> elliott: Aaaargh. Right, it does depend on the filename.
22:55:00 <elliott> Vorpal: see google
22:55:06 <elliott> pikhq: NO omit the filename field
22:55:08 <elliott> pikhq: watch the carnage
22:55:11 <pikhq> elliott: Pity, too.
22:55:13 <elliott> pikhq: alternatively can you omit a checksum?
22:55:17 <elliott> if so just look for, like, "porn.jpg"
22:59:45 <catseye> Ben Codes Five
23:00:18 <fizzie> catseye: http://zem.fi/~fis/crcbar.html (with <canvas>; I don't know enough CSS to do real additive blending with it).
23:00:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:00:47 -!- augur has joined.
23:00:53 <catseye> fizzie: nyyyyaaarrrrhhh you rock.
23:01:35 <elliott> fizzie: Why... why are you so awesome?
23:01:45 <elliott> brb, I will totally blend that when I come back
23:01:52 <Vorpal> <fizzie> catseye: http://zem.fi/~fis/crcbar.html (with <canvas>; I don't know enough CSS to do real additive blending with it). <-- fun, what exactly is it?
23:02:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's that http://cis.gvsu.edu/~swettt/crc.htm except with the numbers denoted by three progress bars.
23:02:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
23:03:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, only if they are involved in file system design
23:06:31 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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23:09:44 <catseye> Hm. Can I upgrade from Ibex to ... something newer, without risking my data on this partition?
23:11:10 <pikhq> catseye: You'll be jumping from LTS to LTS, but "maybe".
23:11:18 <pikhq> catseye: Also, you should use a seperate home partition.
23:12:24 <catseye> pikhq: I totally should, yes.
23:12:54 <catseye> I can maybe find that external HDD in the storage unit and back this thing up before doing anything radical with it.
23:15:07 <pikhq> catseye: Basically, what you're *going* to be doing here is upgrading to Lucid Lynx, and then to Maverick Meerkat.
23:15:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, is LTS→LTS harder than normal upgrade?
23:15:31 <fizzie> catseye: But of course for the real men, http://zem.fi/~fis/crcsq.html
23:15:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, no reason to not stay on lucid
23:15:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not particularly, especially as LTS→LTS upgrades are officially supported.
23:16:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, right then
23:16:30 <pikhq> catseye: Why, pray tell, have you not upgraded in 2 years?
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23:17:42 <pikhq> catseye: Oh, wait. You'll want to upgrade to Jaunty Jackalope, then Karmic Koala, then Lucid Lynx, and then Maverick Meerkat...
23:17:56 <pikhq> Unless you want to keep on an LTS track.
23:18:30 <catseye> Oh man, staged upgrades. OK...
23:18:54 <pikhq> catseye: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JauntyUpgrades then https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KarmicUpgrades then https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LucidUpgrades then https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MaverickUpgrades
23:18:56 <catseye> Sort of an accident that this was an Ibex install, to begin with. But, it was better than a non-functional computer.
23:21:05 <catseye> thanks for the links, I will probably attempt it... sometime this weekend.
23:21:08 <Vorpal> <pikhq> catseye: Oh, wait. You'll want to upgrade to Jaunty Jackalope, then Karmic Koala, then Lucid Lynx, and then Maverick Meerkat... <-- note, jaunty almost reached end of life
23:21:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, no reason not to jump to lucid already if he is on the previous LTS
23:21:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: He's on 8.10, not 8.04 LTS.
23:21:58 <catseye> Or maybe I'll just install Kitten!
23:22:01 <Vorpal> catseye, januty reaches end of life at the end of this month
23:22:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, *oh*
23:22:58 <pikhq> catseye: Interpid reached EOL in April.
23:23:08 <pikhq> catseye: Why the *hell* didn't you upgrade?
23:23:22 <Vorpal> yeah that will be tricky
23:23:33 <Vorpal> upgrading past EOL is tricky from what I remember
23:23:46 <pikhq> catseye: Oh, BTW, if your Intrepid install is out-of-date, you'll need to get that up to date.
23:23:53 <catseye> pikhq: Mostly, I had no internet connection.
23:24:30 <Vorpal> catseye, for the past few years?
23:24:51 <Vorpal> catseye, well you need to first update that using the archive of old releases
23:25:02 <Vorpal> catseye, but back up files first
23:25:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh?
23:25:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, they are still on main mirrors?
23:25:36 * pikhq checks
23:25:45 <pikhq> Nope.
23:25:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, err, intrepid is listed in http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/
23:25:59 <catseye> If I can't upgrade, I'll totally just install something from scratch, after files have been backed up.
23:26:09 <Vorpal> catseye, you can, with a lot of pain
23:26:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ah, so it is.
23:26:55 <catseye> Hm, actually, installing something new will be difficult if my CDR is really not able to R anymore.
23:27:04 <pikhq> catseye: You'll need to swap your sources.list to use archive.ubuntu.com to get it fully up-to-date first.
23:27:05 <catseye> Although, flash drive, maybe.
23:27:13 <Vorpal> catseye, hm
23:27:30 <Vorpal> catseye, I installed lucid from a 1 GB usb stick recently
23:28:14 <Vorpal> catseye, used the "create startup disk" on another lucid computer
23:28:36 <catseye> Vorpal: OK -- unlikely I'll be able to do *that*.
23:29:38 <Vorpal> catseye, could do it from a non-lucid with unetbootin or such
23:29:50 <Vorpal> catseye, just slightly less convenient
23:29:57 <catseye> Where would unetbootin get me?
23:30:31 <catseye> Can't I just download something someone has made and dd it to my flash device? That would be so nice.
23:30:33 <Vorpal> catseye, iso + unetbootin + large enough usb memory stick = able to install without cd
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23:30:45 <Vorpal> catseye, well, iirc you need a bit more than just dd
23:30:47 <Vorpal> but I may be wrong
23:30:52 * pikhq should get a DVD burner some time.
23:31:05 <Vorpal> I have a DVD-RAM drive
23:31:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, :P
23:31:11 <Vorpal> never tried DVD-RAM
23:31:12 <fizzie> The Ubuntu CD images also have a usb-generator.exe Windows proggie to do the same thing the "create startup disk" does, if you happen to be on a Windows.
23:31:20 <Vorpal> but in theory my thinkpad can do DVD-RAM
23:32:38 <Vorpal> hm, why do star trek space ship bank? Has that ever been explained?
23:32:53 <fizzie> Sorry, usb-creator.exe. Last time I did Ubuntu-on-USB-stick I went with the unetbootin route too, though. (That also exists in at least some package managers, and a Windows port.)
23:33:26 <Vorpal> mhm
23:34:07 <catseye> It looks like usb-creator can take an ISO for a different version of Ubuntu and still, uh, burn a USB for it...
23:34:34 <Vorpal> catseye, "burn a USB". XD
23:34:42 <Vorpal> you meant "burn an USB" obviously
23:35:06 <catseye> Vorpal: Look, an unicorn!
23:35:19 <Vorpal> catseye, indeed. I wonder what it is doing there
23:35:36 <catseye> Vorpal, do you really pronounce it "uzzb"?
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23:36:06 <Vorpal> catseye, I pronounce it as separate letters
23:36:16 <Vorpal> catseye, in Swedish that is the normal way
23:36:32 <catseye> I do too. The first such letter is pronounced "Yoo" in my language. Thus, "an Yoo Ess Bee".
23:36:40 <Vorpal> oh wait, you call "U" "you", which does not start with a vowel sound
23:36:47 <oerjan> catseye: er...
23:36:50 <catseye> * ... sounds wrong.
23:37:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, Space Friction.
23:37:48 <Vorpal> catseye, I shall start pronouncing it "uzzb" though
23:38:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that the canon explanation?
23:38:19 <oerjan> an F, an H, an L, an M, an N, an R, an S, a U, an X, a Y
23:38:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, fhlmnrsuxy?
23:38:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: No; I haven't heard of one. They do it (IIRC) in non-warpy scenarios, otherwise I'm sure someone would have cooked up a technobabble explanation.
23:39:02 <Vorpal> I don't think I can pronounce that as one word!
23:39:39 <oerjan> um it's a list of letters with a particular property (although the Y is ambiguous whether it should be there)
23:40:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, Y is "why" isn't it?
23:40:39 <fizzie> Why is, why isn't it.
23:40:43 <oerjan> (the property _should_ be obvious from the conversation)
23:40:50 <fizzie> There's a Y/why mixup pun here somewhere.
23:40:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, :P
23:40:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: yes afaik
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23:48:34 <catseye> hi calamari, hi zzo38
23:48:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, Swedish letter names make a lot more, leave a lot fewer questions unanswered
23:48:46 <calamari> hi
23:48:49 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:49:14 <Vorpal> hi Sgeo, zzo38, calamari
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23:49:21 <calamari> catseye, you enjoy roguelike games, correct? in fact I think you even made an esolang out of one?
23:49:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:50:39 <Sgeo> Non-fixed-width fonts on IRC make me dizzy
23:50:44 <zzo38> I even made a few small roguelike games
23:50:50 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then use a fixed-width font, please.
23:51:00 <catseye> calamari: uh well, yes I enjoy them, yes I wrote (a good chunk of a very detailed) one once, but no, I have not made an esolang out of any.
23:51:23 <zzo38> I use fixed-width because I prefer fixed-width font on computer screen, and also that PuTTY uses fixed-width fonts.
23:51:40 <Sgeo> YOU use WINDOWS?
23:52:07 <calamari> I am wondering if there has been a multiplayer one that also had initially random maps but that allowed perma nent modifications by players
23:52:13 * Sgeo watches his world turn upside-down
23:52:14 <catseye> I'm totally going to be using Windows this weekend if my backup/upgrade/whatever plans work out...
23:52:23 <calamari> argh I described that horribly
23:52:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: I use Windows, although I would rather not.
23:52:45 <zzo38> When I get a new computer I certainly will not use Windows, because I will write a Linux distribution instead.
23:52:58 <calamari> basically where the players could change the map and have it stay that way until someone else changed it
23:53:17 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Non-fixed-width fonts on IRC make me dizzy <-- I know what you mean
23:53:42 <calamari> yeah I have to use a fixed width in irc
23:53:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yes zzo38 uses windows, and it was well known
23:54:28 <Vorpal> <zzo38> When I get a new computer I certainly will not use Windows, because I will write a Linux distribution instead. <-- zzo38 and elliott: maybe you should combine efforts! ;D
23:54:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: They would clash.
23:55:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, true
23:55:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, it would be interesting to watch. from a bomb shelter
23:55:36 <pikhq> :P
23:55:55 <zzo38> I am not going to put bombs in my Linux distribution!!
23:56:37 <zzo38> elliott is the one that wanted to put bombs and kittens and puppies and flowers and so on in a operating system, but I don't need to put any of this stuff in.
23:57:34 <Vorpal> zzo38, uh, I was using that in a metaphorical sense
23:58:43 <zzo38> OK
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