←2010-10-15 2010-10-16 2010-10-17→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:39 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> oerjan, Swedish letter names make a lot more, leave a lot fewer questions unanswered <-- hey, why didn't you laugh!?
00:03:47 <zzo38> What is the order of pop the PC from "RTS" command on 6502, for making a fake instruction like "jmp [sound_addr_low,x]" (which I think is not a valid instruction)?
00:09:49 <fizzie> I'm not sure what the question asks; if you just mean the order of bytes in memory, if the stack pointers points to N, then the low byte of PC in RTS is read from N+1 and the high byte from N+2, after which the stack pointer will point to N+2.
00:10:59 <fizzie> Though the PC that was popped is also incremented once, too.
00:13:11 <zzo38> fizzie: OK.
00:13:36 <fizzie> (Because JSR, which is a three-byte instruction, pushes PC+2, the address of the last byte, to stack; so the increment corrects for that.)
00:14:02 * oerjan didn't connect it to Y = why
00:14:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, you fail
00:14:32 <oerjan> also i think you accidentally the sense
00:14:33 <zzo38> So the order of pushing must be HIGH(n-1) and then LOW(n-1) if you want to use RTS to jump there? Is that it?
00:14:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, um, Y do you think that?
00:15:36 <fizzie> zzo38: That should be it. (But I wouldn't trust me.)
00:15:37 <oerjan> make a lot more _what_?
00:15:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh "sense"
00:15:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah indeed
00:15:59 <fizzie> oerjan: Make a lot more questions!
00:16:09 <oerjan> but also answer them!
00:16:13 <fizzie> Yes.
00:16:27 <fizzie> Based on the amount of ?s on the last few lines, they certainly seemed to make a lot of questions.
00:16:30 <zzo38> fizzie: The reason for these kind of question is to make improvment of PPMCK.
00:16:34 <oerjan> very talkative, swedish letters.
00:17:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah, just look at "i", "å" and "ö". They say as much as 13 English letters!
00:18:08 * oerjan senses something above his head
00:18:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, "in", "river" (not exactly, between "river" and "stream"), "island"
00:18:58 <Vorpal> $ echo -n 'inriverisland' | wc -c
00:18:59 <Vorpal> 13
00:19:08 <oerjan> bah
00:19:21 <pikhq> 川島に
00:19:25 <pikhq> I can do the same for Japanese!
00:19:51 <Vorpal> $ echo -n '川島に' | wc -c
00:19:51 <Vorpal> 9
00:19:54 <Vorpal> $ echo -n 'åäö' | wc -c
00:19:54 <Vorpal> 6
00:19:59 <Vorpal> (okay, so that is cheating)
00:20:07 <pikhq> You want wc -m.
00:20:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, no, because that would look better for Japanese ;P
00:20:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: What do you think that does?
00:20:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, -m? multibyte obviously
00:21:00 <Vorpal> -c is byte count
00:21:00 <fizzie> zzo38: From what I've seen -- but I haven't seen much -- people more often seem to be mutating a JMP instruction instead of jumping via the stack. (RTS takes twice as long as a JMP to execute, 6 vs. 3, while PHA is only one cycle faster than STA with an abs address. It does save in amount of code, though.)
00:21:06 <pikhq> It prints the characters.
00:21:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, eh?
00:21:24 <pikhq> The character count.
00:21:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes
00:21:34 <pikhq> $ echo -n '川島に' | wc -m
00:21:34 <pikhq> 3
00:21:40 <pikhq> $ echo -n 'åäö' | wc -m
00:21:41 <pikhq> 3
00:21:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, .... you completely missed the joke
00:21:59 <Vorpal> wait, iåö
00:22:00 <Vorpal> I meant
00:22:01 <zzo38> The thing I still haven't figure out yet on 6502 is the divide by three, though. And then I can make it have a conditional compile switch to tell it to compile a code to divide by 2 or by 3. (It needs to divide number as large as 0x07FF at most)
00:22:04 <Vorpal> not åäö
00:22:16 <pikhq> You suck.
00:22:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, because I meant a joke that went over your head? Okay *shrug*
00:23:02 <oerjan> zzo38: you might use a shifting loop
00:23:03 <pikhq> No, because you think iåö is the same as åäö.
00:23:07 <pikhq> Obviously.
00:23:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, no I don't :P
00:23:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, it was a typo
00:23:32 <pikhq> i is *quite* far from compose-o-a.
00:23:33 <pikhq> :D
00:23:36 <zzo38> oerjan: How do I use a shifting loop?
00:23:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, well, yes but not so far if you have a ä key :P
00:23:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, like I do
00:24:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Everybody knows there's only one keyboard layout.
00:24:03 <pikhq> ONLY ONE.
00:24:06 <catseye> `run echo -n '川島に' | wc -m
00:24:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes, only the Swedish one
00:24:12 <Vorpal> very true
00:24:22 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nay, the AMERICAN one!
00:24:25 <pikhq> WE INVENTED IT
00:24:31 <pikhq> EVERYTHING ELSE IS A LIE
00:24:58 <zzo38> Now I made a few new commands in PPMCK: * ? #MACRO #CUSTOM-TUNING Xc Xl Xm
00:25:44 <HackEgo> 9
00:26:34 <fizzie> FWIW, cc65's runtime division code is http://p.zem.fi/cc65-div -- it's very messy, but it's possible the udiv16by8a bit could be adapted to do a fixed divide-by-three. Don't have time to try to understand that right now, though.
00:26:46 <oerjan> zzo38: something equivalent to c = 3*32768; b=0; while (a) {if (a >= c) { a-=c; b++; } a <<= 1; b <<= 1; }
00:27:08 <oerjan> oh wait
00:27:19 <catseye> longdivision?
00:27:23 <oerjan> not while (a), it needs to use an accurate count
00:28:05 <catseye> what is b?
00:28:20 <oerjan> b is to collect the result
00:28:32 <catseye> oh yeah, duh
00:28:46 <oerjan> and yes essentially long division
00:29:45 <catseye> HackEgo: does this mean your locale is C or something?
00:29:55 <Vorpal> night →
00:30:32 <oerjan> the loop should repeat 15 times i think for a 16-bit number (0x07ff would be less i guess, if you adjust c to fit)
00:30:44 <pikhq> catseye: Well, the C locale only does ASCII, sooo... I guess so.
00:31:18 <pikhq> `run echo $LANG
00:31:20 <HackEgo> No output.
00:31:29 <catseye> `run locale
00:31:42 <pikhq> That's C locale, alright.
00:33:44 <oerjan> zzo38: oh and dividing by 2 is of course just a single shift
00:33:59 <oerjan> well i guess you know that
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00:37:02 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, dividing by 2 is just a single shift, but I need also divide by 3 as well
00:38:52 <catseye> zzo38: OOC, what are you writing?
00:39:07 <zzo38> catseye: I am writing changes to PPMCK
00:39:34 <oerjan> hey that was _not_ out of character. pay attention!
00:39:40 <zzo38> In this case, it is divide a sixteen bit number by 2, so it does LSR and ROR
00:39:52 <catseye> "PPMCK is a MML script-based NES/Famicom music composition utility." ?
00:40:09 <zzo38> catseye: Yes. That is what PPMCK is.
00:40:20 <catseye> Oh gosh. OK.
00:40:28 <zzo38> It is a program to write music compiled into NSF
00:42:08 <catseye> oerjan: HackEgo's the one out of character here. C locale, indeed!
00:44:03 <oerjan> that's not out of character, it still has 256 of them
00:44:07 <zzo38> PPMCK is not the only program for making music compiled into NSF, but it is one of the best one, in my opinion.
00:56:53 <zzo38> I saw the cc65-div code, how do I need use that for divide sixteen bit number by constant.
00:56:58 <zzo38> ?
01:00:09 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:22:33 <calamari> okay I take it nobody has seen such a roguelike :)
01:22:43 <calamari> would it be fun?
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01:24:37 <Sgeo> C locale?
01:24:49 <Gregor> C locale: The roguelike!
01:24:57 <Sgeo> Also, what is "such a roguelike"
01:25:22 <oerjan> you are such, like a rogue
01:26:14 <calamari> Sgeo, you were actually here when I described it :)
01:26:51 <calamari> a multiplayer roguelike that remembers map changes
01:27:29 <Sgeo> here != paying attention
01:27:46 <Sgeo> I don't think I've ever seen a multiplayer roguelike before
01:27:56 <calamari> yeah you were dizzy at the time :)
01:28:53 <calamari> I have seen one, mangband
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02:10:54 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:11:51 <elliott> fizzie: ping
02:12:48 <elliott> fizzie: you can probably blend the colours by *3 the colours and opacity:.33333
02:13:32 <elliott> does anyone want to know thw owrst thing?
02:17:29 <elliott> *the worst
02:17:36 <elliott> Sgeo, oerjan, Gregor
02:17:38 <elliott> THE WORST THING
02:17:43 <zzo38> Worst thing of what?
02:18:02 <pikhq> Iie îe いいえ イイエ 五五愛
02:18:10 <oerjan> LALALA I CANNOT HEAR YOU
02:18:24 <elliott> zzo38: in the world
02:18:27 <elliott> okay pikhq
02:18:32 <elliott> do you want to know the worst thing
02:18:36 <elliott> you must it has ... destroyed me
02:18:46 <Sgeo> Opposition to modern medicine?
02:19:02 <zzo38> elliott: Do you know what is the worst thing in the world?
02:19:03 * oerjan thinks pikhq said "no"
02:19:14 <zzo38> oerjan: I think you are correct
02:19:14 <oerjan> in a very impolite way
02:19:20 <pikhq> oerjan: 5 times, each in a different writing system for Japanese!
02:19:23 <Sgeo> Ok, what's the worst thing in the world?
02:19:38 <Sgeo> *second worst. You don't seem to be dead.
02:19:40 <pikhq> mannyokàna (man'yogana) is the craziest thing ever.
02:20:01 <zzo38> pikhq: I believe you.
02:20:09 <Sgeo> elliott, are you ever going to explain?
02:20:10 <elliott> Sgeo: this is worse then death.
02:20:14 <elliott> *than
02:20:43 <Sgeo> Incredible pain that will never go away for the rest of your life?
02:20:59 <zzo38> Is it... life?
02:21:17 <elliott> zzo38: No.
02:21:19 <elliott> Sgeo: Worse.
02:21:24 <elliott> Sgeo: You're on Ubuntu right?
02:21:34 <Sgeo> Windows 7 right now
02:21:44 <zzo38> Is it... dead people that are very large and take up too much space?
02:21:44 <elliott> Sgeo: then you cannot know the pain
02:21:53 <elliott> zzo38: no. i don't think that's a huge problem...
02:22:11 <catseye> http://www.fixya.com/support/t1222056-simpletech_320gb_external_hard_drive <-- DECIDE
02:22:12 <Sgeo> A dead person the size of the moon might be a huge problem.
02:22:14 <zzo38> Is it... people?
02:22:26 <Sgeo> Dead person size of the sun would be worse.
02:22:27 <oerjan> Sgeo: OR PRECIOUS REAL ESTATE
02:22:28 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes that is what I meant.
02:23:09 * Sgeo carves up oerjan to use as a house
02:23:21 <Sgeo> elliott, describe it?
02:23:25 <elliott> Sgeo: cannot.
02:23:28 <elliott> must be experienced.
02:23:30 <oerjan> hey i'm not the size of the moon. or even a house. yet, anyhow.
02:23:48 <catseye> it's really idiotic that they don't label it on the back of the case
02:23:59 <Sgeo> elliott, well, surely there are things I'd need to do
02:24:07 <elliott> catseye: you're on ubuntu right
02:24:36 <elliott> catseye: oh btw there is an easy way to upgrade from ippepid bibex to current ubuntu totally safely but
02:24:38 <elliott> i'll tell you tomorrow
02:24:40 <elliott> too tired right now
02:24:56 <oerjan> wouldn't a dead person the size of the sun collapse into a black hole?
02:25:04 <zzo38> "ippepid bibex"??
02:25:20 <oerjan> well i guess there is still fusible material.
02:25:25 <Sgeo> Biblical LaTeX1
02:25:54 <Sgeo> Pray to your TeXan God1
02:26:06 <zzo38> What is Biblical LaTeX1?
02:26:09 <Sgeo> Dear keyboard: Please allow me to type !
02:26:22 <elliott> <zzo38> "ippepid bibex"??
02:26:25 <elliott> the intrepid bibexian.
02:27:06 <Sgeo> The ONLY Christian typesetting environment
02:27:34 <Sgeo> Users of anything else go straight to hell
02:27:48 <catseye> I think the power supply to my ADSL modem will power the external HDD. Of course, that means I'll offlinify while backing up.
02:28:13 <elliott> i sure hope i'll be able to stop watching the guild so i can go to bed
02:29:29 <Sgeo> The Guild++
02:29:39 <Sgeo> It's just one more thing I can spoil you on >:D
02:30:41 <elliott> yeah, uh
02:30:44 <elliott> not a huge plotline really
02:30:47 <elliott> it's just amusing
02:33:21 <zzo38> LaTeX (Biblical or not) is bloated and difficult to understand, but even Plain TeX has more things than needed.
02:34:13 <catseye> insipid cortex
02:35:35 <zzo38> TeX is still the best typesetting system, though.
02:36:00 <elliott> No it isn't. LaTeX is.
02:37:51 <Sgeo> Maybe I should clarify that "Biblical LaTeX" was a joke..
02:38:55 <catseye> Curses, no USB cable!
02:39:09 <catseye> GoReTeX
02:39:10 <elliott> zzo38: what about Hermeneutic LaTeX?
02:39:24 <elliott> or NyLoN?
02:39:43 <zzo38> But I still need to improve TeX, and I think it can be done with only adding a few commands: \progdef \maketoken \ifexecute \expandto \convlist \convbox \convtoks \dvibinary \pagex \pagey Hopefully this should be enough.
02:39:59 <zzo38> What are those things?
02:40:04 <Sgeo> Gor or Gore?
02:40:11 <elliott> zzo38: they are the best typesetting systems ever
02:40:19 <zzo38> How so?
02:40:42 <catseye> it is difficult to say
02:41:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: There is actually justification for a sort of "Biblical" macro set for LaTeX.
02:41:16 <catseye> OK... need... get... uzzb cable...
02:41:39 <zzo38> pikhq: And what is justification? What macros are needed?
02:42:02 <elliott> pikhq: LATEX IS UNJUSTIFIABLE IT IS BAD
02:42:44 <Sgeo> I hereby wipe my hands clean of any blood shed due to Biblical LaTeX
02:42:44 <pikhq> Sgeo: Bibles and other such critical works have particular, unique typesetting demands. Most *obviously* the need to handle chapter/verse notations in a certain way, cross-references, and footnotes.
02:42:54 <elliott> zzo38: I need to ask you a question.
02:43:05 <elliott> zzo38: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
02:43:06 <zzo38> elliott: OK
02:43:11 <pikhq> Though this isn't *unique* to the Christian Bible, it's the most common such work.
02:43:24 <Sgeo> Ah
02:43:32 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know.
02:43:40 <elliott> zzo38: But what are your thoughts on the matter?
02:44:00 <elliott> Have *you* ever really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
02:44:07 * oerjan imagines zzo38 understanding the question perfectly
02:44:36 <elliott> well zzo38 does have a certain clarity of notions about him
02:44:40 <elliott> it is only to be expected
02:45:05 <zzo38> elliott: Do you mean what I look more like or do you mean the book?
02:45:22 <elliott> zzo38: I mean whether you have really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like.
02:45:56 <zzo38> elliott: I sometimes change my decision.
02:46:08 <elliott> zzo38: That... I agree.
02:46:23 * Sgeo blinks
02:46:31 <zzo38> OK, now we agree.
02:47:11 <elliott> zzo38: Personally, I have occasionally reall been far even as decided to use even go want to do that, but I'm never sure whether to go throughg with it and look more like as my desires tell me to, you know?
02:47:52 <Sgeo> Fucken has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like how do they work?
02:48:05 <elliott> Sgeo: Ah, Christopher Fucken, inventor of Mornington Crescent?
02:48:14 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, I know. I sometimes change my opinion in future, so I don't want to change something permanently until I am more sure, I think.
02:48:24 <elliott> After whom the Fucken A manoeuvre is named.
02:48:33 <elliott> zzo38: Agreed.
02:49:18 <zzo38> elliott: Can you play Mornington Crescent? If you make an illegal move do you have to discard 2 cards?
02:49:50 <elliott> zzo38: 3, actually; 3 1/2 in the Amended Uncrossreferenced Edition 1667 of the King's Guard.
02:49:55 <elliott> That one's a bit screwy though.
02:49:59 <zzo38> I don't like the rule in Mornington Crescent that causes the rules to change if you are playing the game on Sunday.
02:50:14 <elliott> zzo38: That's only when playing with Whorffhotridge extensions, and nobody does that.
02:50:18 <zzo38> Or maybe that is not the standard edition, I don't know.
02:50:21 <elliott> Well, Martkin Plink does, but he can do whatever he wants.
02:50:30 <zzo38> I don't know a lot of the rules.
02:50:45 <Sgeo> Isn't there a rule allowing different players to use different rules?
02:50:55 <elliott> Sgeo: only when you're not a turnip
02:51:30 <elliott> I quote 5.6.7/987§33.2 in the Dewy Duodecimal numbering:
02:51:40 <elliott> (King Jam's Edition)
02:52:42 <elliott> "Iff that Sgeo is't rightly a turnippe, play shall proceed whereby all players share one sette of rules. Contrariwise, players shall maintain their owne rulesett as desirede."
02:53:12 <elliott> or in the 1998 Modern Amended & Revised Almanac Publication:
02:53:14 <zzo38> Didn't you just make up that rule now?
02:53:38 <elliott> "If Sgeo is a turnip, all players shall play by the same set of rules. However, if he is not, all players can maintain their own ruleset as they see fit."
02:53:53 <elliott> zzo38: Nope; you can check your physical copy if you want. It's in volume 55.29 of King Jam's.
02:54:05 <elliott> And you know that the Modern Amended publication is in a single volume.
02:54:45 <oerjan> Sgeo has of course chosen his nick after the famous MC player.
02:54:53 <Sgeo> elliott, you helped with some of the revisions, iirc?
02:55:00 <elliott> oerjan: you didn't know? he *is* that Sgeo!
02:55:04 <elliott> very different in-game persona, i agree
02:55:06 <oerjan> o sh...
02:55:16 <elliott> oerjan: yeah we are in esteemed company
02:55:32 <elliott> Sgeo: well. an amendment here or there in the 2007 edition.
02:55:45 <elliott> just clarifying footnotes
02:55:48 <elliott> and i think one slight reword
02:55:59 <elliott> youngest person to have a contribution accepted to a respected publication of the MC ruleset, i believe
02:56:21 <Sgeo> Awesome
02:58:00 <elliott> Sgeo: how did you use the Tradranikas Gambit in your last game against Yurtsin Robonov?
02:58:04 <elliott> has anyone ever used it that late in the game?
02:58:15 <elliott> you basically had to reset half the game to initial condition...
02:58:17 <zzo38> I believe you just made up most of these rules, but then, I think many people make up their own rules for Mornington Crescent because they don't know how to play, so that is why they make up rules. Of course there are standards, but every time I have seen someone play they always add their own rules.
02:58:21 <elliott> but i guess it's the other half that matters, right?
02:58:37 <elliott> zzo38: as i said, check your physical copy if you want a verification
02:59:07 <zzo38> I don't actually have a physical copy. I don't live in England.
03:00:09 <catseye> Have... uzzb... cable. Fhew.
03:00:30 <elliott> zzo38: you could mail one from Taupe House
03:00:32 <elliott> *mail order
03:00:41 <elliott> their website is down right now though and i don't have the address to hand
03:01:11 <Sgeo> Well, I think I was very fortunate to recall the Milardton's Maneuver. I almost did the Irevocrev gamble, whichh would have screwed me over
03:01:12 <elliott> that'd be the two-volume restructuring of the Modern Amended publication (colloquially the "Taupe Amended" edition); one of my favourites
03:01:18 <elliott> the Modern Amended format is a little too cramped I think
03:01:23 <zzo38> I would need also to get a map of Mornington Crescent, I suppose. And if they changed things in that area over time, you would need to decide and agree on whether to use the old map or new map.
03:01:25 <elliott> and that book, wow, not good for your lap!
03:01:38 <elliott> Sgeo: whichhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
03:02:03 <catseye> [PDF]
03:02:05 <catseye> bibleref.sty: a LaTeXe package for typesetting bible references
03:02:21 <catseye> i.e. it exists
03:03:45 <elliott> oerjan: didn't you do some work on mathematical models of subsets of Mornington Crescent?
03:03:53 <elliott> any progress to a grand unified theory? haha, i wish :)
03:04:06 <elliott> they always seem to get so far and then there's that little mechanic that brings the whole thing crashing down
03:04:07 <elliott> a shame
03:04:09 <elliott> true shame
03:04:50 <catseye> and when he shows up he always asks me for a cigarette even though he KNOWS i don't smoke
03:05:30 <elliott> catseye: i... yes totally
03:07:19 <oerjan> actually i've never even played the game.
03:07:42 <catseye> I once got within a block of Mornington Crescent only to discover it was actually another player's Mornington Crescent Decoy (although he had no knowledge of this.)
03:07:43 <zzo38> elliott: I doubt that, everyone plays by different rules anyways so how do you know for sure? However, I have an idea: Real maps sometimes have trap streets. So, perhaps you can make a specific set of trap streets for the game, which are designed to make the game mathematically correct.
03:07:46 <oerjan> just read a bit about it.
03:08:10 <elliott> oerjan: as we all know that doesn't stop mathematicians from modelling things :)
03:08:45 <Sgeo> zzo38, I've been turniped once
03:08:48 <elliott> oerjan: but... really? weren't you listed as one of the (admittedly very numerous!) coauthors on Tableau et al.'s famous 1997 paper?
03:10:58 <catseye> Then he used his "Grateful Dead" token (+2) to escape the sewers of Paris, and made a beeline for Erste Lage Spätlese. I didn't have enough bonus crumbs at the time to prevent such a move...
03:12:51 <zzo38> catseye: Were you playing the variant using the map of the entire world (and not only England)? (I don't remember what that variant was called, but I have read of its existence)
03:12:54 <elliott> catseye: No, that's just when the Nazis invaded your house.
03:12:58 <elliott> Just your house. Inexplicably.
03:13:00 <elliott> Keep up grandpa.
03:13:07 <oerjan> i think it is possible that i'd _heard_ of the game by 1997. so, no.
03:13:25 <elliott> oerjan: oh it was Orjan Johansen
03:13:25 <oerjan> i'm not english either, after all.
03:13:29 <elliott> oerjan: easy mistake to make
03:14:04 <catseye> elliott: Were you playing, in that round? You might have been, there were a lot of people involved.
03:14:45 <catseye> zzo38: Well, he wasn't a particularly good player. Perhaps he got lost.
03:14:53 <elliott> catseye: i have played a horribly low number of games for the amount of rubbish i know
03:15:05 <elliott> but, i think i might have been in the really big one in...
03:15:10 <elliott> when was it
03:15:11 <elliott> 2008?
03:15:14 <zzo38> catseye: O, OK.
03:15:14 <elliott> yeah
03:15:30 <elliott> catseye: oh that was the one with the subplot theme of "a great escape" right?
03:15:36 <elliott> that would explain <catseye> Then he used his "Grateful Dead" token (+2) to escape the sewers of Paris, and made a beeline for Erste Lage Spätlese. I didn't have enough bonus crumbs at the time to prevent such a move...
03:15:48 <elliott> i hate it when the subplots get too involved though. it's a gimmick.
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03:18:30 <catseye> Well, now that oerjan's gone, I can reveal to you the truth. This wasn't a game of Mornington Crescent, at all. This was a horrible experiment gone wrong, on a mailing list on the early internet...
03:18:56 <catseye> The idea was that we could create a game exactly like Mornington Crescent using only our minds.
03:18:58 <catseye> I know right?
03:19:08 * catseye shakes his head
03:19:12 <catseye> We were so foolish...
03:20:12 <zzo38> catseye: Yes, I heard of that variant, I think it was "Blind Mornington Crescent" and you have to just imagine the map, you do not have a physical map..... it is difficult if you cannot agree on the rules
03:20:54 <zzo38> Or do you mean some other variant?
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03:22:40 <catseye> zzo38: I will have to tell you some other time. Right now I must use the power supply of my ADSL modem to power my external HDD to back up this partition to have some confidence I won't lose the data when I recover Windows (Vista!) on the *other* partition so I can see if I can burn CD's from Windows maybe (I won't) but it will put me in a position to install a better OS where Ibex used to be.
03:23:00 <catseye> See you on the flipside, knock on wood.
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03:23:06 <zzo38> OK.
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03:27:40 <zzo38> Another change I made in PPMCK is to make the header strings say "<?>" if it is not set, in accordance with the standard. (The old version put the field names there instead.)
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03:28:26 <elliott> zzo38: I suggest you try the Stork Press' -- hey, bet cpressey's bot is named after them -- annual newbie games. There's information in the Taupe Amended edition of the rules (in the first appendix). Very good; I started off there.
03:28:43 <elliott> The people there are great, they'll help you get started with tactics etc. in no time. Truly the discerning newbie's choice.
03:28:51 <elliott> Well worth getting in to.
03:28:54 <elliott> I'm going now; goodnight. Bye.
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03:29:44 <zzo38> I can try.....
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03:30:13 <catseye> Well that didn't work.
03:31:01 <zzo38> What OS are you trying to install, now?
03:31:07 <catseye> The plug fits, and powers it on, but the unit does nothing. Possibly toast.
03:31:27 <Sgeo> ToastOS!
03:31:29 <catseye> zzo38: I want to start with recovering the Windows partition on this laptop.
03:31:47 <catseye> I have no guarantees this won't wipe out the Ubuntu partition...
03:31:55 <catseye> So I'm looking to back up first.
03:32:11 <zzo38> So you want to have dual boot?
03:33:52 <zzo38> I wonder if you know who Damian Yerrick is
03:34:31 <catseye> zzo38: I have a dual boot, just, one of the OSes involved won't boot :)
03:34:51 <catseye> I have not heard that name, so far as I can recall
03:35:13 <zzo38> Oops! That is a mistake. Another choice is to replace the hard drive with a new one, and use the old one as the backup
03:36:13 <zzo38> There are many Linux distributions, Ubuntu is not the only one, so, you can pick whichever one you want, or even write your own
03:37:53 <catseye> The main obstacle, at present, is that the DVD-R drive will not R. If that worked, I would just burn my data to some blank DVDs and go ahead and experiment.
03:38:53 <catseye> If it wasn't a laptop, I would consider swapping the hard drive. But, it's a laptop.
03:39:09 <catseye> Maybe I should just get a new damned computer.
03:39:47 <pikhq> Laptop hard drives can be swapped too, y'know.
03:41:29 <catseye> Yeah, but then I'd have to get another laptop harddrive to swap it with. And I don't like laptops, and this laptop has problems, as well.
03:41:45 <catseye> I should just try to build another desktop system, probably.
03:43:05 <zzo38> OK, try to build another desktop system.
03:45:45 <zzo38> I also have a question about PXELINUX, in case you know about it. I have written a module for it and it will resolve hostnames but the MAC address doesn't work, do you know what is wrong? (This is for a program I am writing at Free Geek)
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03:50:06 <catseye> I appear to have about 9 gigabytes available on my web host. I could upload all the files I care about...
03:52:25 <catseye> zzo38: PXE is cool. But I have no idea.
03:52:51 <catseye> I appear to be missing about half of one of my molars. Fantastic. How'd that happen?
04:01:20 <pikhq> http://www3.state.id.us/oasis/2005/HCR029.html Okay, some days I absolutely love ridiculous acts of legislature.
04:03:14 <catseye> my tax... dollars... at...
04:03:22 * catseye :::
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04:04:50 -!- wareya has joined.
04:08:58 <catseye> zzo38: when using Unix, do you pass the -h flag to du and df, or do you find it easier to read if you don't?
04:09:41 <zzo38> catseye: I have never used those commands.
04:10:17 <catseye> really.
04:10:30 <catseye> How about ls?
04:11:04 <catseye> For ls it's a little less useful for me to use -h.
04:11:10 <catseye> Unless the files are gigantic.
04:11:12 <zzo38> I have used ls. I have never used the -h flag of ls.
04:16:59 <pikhq> catseye: I use -h habitually.
04:17:04 -!- catseye has changed nick to DrNinja.
04:17:54 <pikhq> zzo38: You've never used du or dh?
04:17:56 <pikhq> Erm, df
04:18:21 <zzo38> Yes, I have not used those commands.
04:18:46 <DrNinja> I *just* now used dh, accidentally.
04:19:01 <DrNinja> Apparently, dh is part of debhelper.
04:20:22 <pikhq> Alas.
04:20:31 <pikhq> zzo38: You must dislike knowing anything about disk usage.
04:20:45 <Sgeo> This is a test, this is only a test.
04:21:15 <Sgeo> Uhhh.... urgent question
04:21:22 <Sgeo> How do I stop streaming in VLC?
04:21:44 <pikhq> C-c
04:22:09 <DrNinja> as much as I like this nick, it is silly.
04:22:11 -!- DrNinja has changed nick to catseye.
04:22:48 <pikhq> It was insufficiently Irish.
04:24:18 <catseye> And "catseye" is sufficiently so?
04:24:24 <catseye> Begorrah!
04:24:46 <pikhq> Now, you want nekonome. That's "Irish", right?
04:24:50 <zzo38> pikhq: No, I just never needed to know about disk usage when using Unix.
04:25:25 <catseye> pikhq: The "neko" part suggests it is highly "Irish". I don't know about the rest.
04:25:34 <pikhq> catseye: :P
04:26:18 <catseye> /nick PeterPackrat
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04:33:21 <catseye> I should totally be running LoseThos.
04:33:40 <catseye> I... I would score bravery points, but I think that's all.
04:33:47 <catseye> Oh! I would get to hear GOD MUSIC
04:34:02 <catseye> OK, well, one thing at a time.
04:35:44 <Sgeo> Surely the music could be converted to a format playable on a sane OS?
04:36:41 <catseye> Surely it could. Surely the music could be generated on a sane OS to start with.
04:37:28 <catseye> But, what's the word -- circumstantially, it's not.
04:37:42 <catseye> Oh, circumstantialness.
04:37:45 <pikhq> Dear Youtube player: you have a buffer of 1/3rd of the video. YOU DON'T NEED TO STOP THE VIDEO AND BUFFER SOME MORE.
04:38:19 <catseye> Oh dear yes. Youtube got all wacky "you are sophisticated stupid" once Google got its mitts on it.
04:39:44 <catseye> Arrgh 3.5 hours to upload 0.5 G of stuff to my webspace.
04:41:15 <Sgeo> LoseThos.com was hosted on Yahoo?
04:41:22 <Sgeo> How does that even make sense?
04:41:40 <Sgeo> http://www.losethos.com/blog.html
04:42:59 <catseye> Yahoo offers web hosting of some sort
04:43:06 <catseye> But forget that.
04:43:08 <catseye> http://www.amazon.com/Cognitive-Connection-Thought-Language-Machine/dp/0131396196
04:43:13 <catseye> You need to read this book.
04:43:17 <catseye> It is an awesome book.
04:43:23 <catseye> It contains like 50,000 errors.
04:43:32 <catseye> But it is otherwise an awesome book.
04:43:52 <pikhq> Aaah, Losethos.
04:44:11 <Sgeo> I think I like the idea of a simple OS to toy around on
04:44:16 <catseye> I have thought of putting together an "esoteric reading list" sometime, and this would be on it.
04:44:18 <pikhq> The OS that concludes that the 80s were awesome.
04:44:42 <pikhq> Especially the mono-lingual support.
04:44:50 <Sgeo> They were awesome for getting kids to learn how to program
04:44:59 <Sgeo> (I think)
04:45:00 <pikhq> (thank god it's not propogating STILL MORE incompatible encodings)
04:45:17 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/user/losethos
04:46:12 <catseye> love how the window titles CONSTANTLY SCROLL
04:47:12 <pikhq> The "lyrics". The hell?
04:47:20 -!- Epona has joined.
04:47:32 <pikhq> Back to Joco.
04:47:44 <Sgeo> There's only one way to find out if those are random or not, pikhq.
04:47:47 <Sgeo> Better take the plunge.
04:48:01 <Sgeo> Well, hmm
04:48:03 <pikhq> Fuck no. The crazy might be contagious.
04:48:03 <Sgeo> Randomly ordered
04:48:28 <catseye> http://www.amazon.com/Patterns-Software-Tales-Community/dp/0195121236/ <-- this would be awesome book #2 on my reading list.
04:48:42 <Sgeo> fwiw, I finally have a compuuter capable of running LoseThos
04:49:20 <catseye> I'm not sure what else would go on it, though. So much is not really weird enough.
04:49:42 <catseye> "Escher, Goedel, Bach" goes on my "read it, ok, but then please burn it" list.
04:50:06 <Sgeo> "LoseThos will never have networking, other
04:50:07 <Sgeo> graphics modes, or USB support, unless USB is required for keyboards and mice.
04:50:07 <Sgeo> What else is there? I'll have to find something. I might do applications, I
04:50:07 <Sgeo> guess.
04:50:07 <Sgeo> "
04:50:08 <catseye> Goedel, Escher, Bach, is probably the real order.
04:50:15 <Sgeo> eep, sorry
04:50:29 <catseye> I guess he might do applications.
04:50:31 <Sgeo> I guess I can't run it, then, unless I do some weird dual-boot thingy
04:50:33 <catseye> But why?
04:51:00 <catseye> Oh wait
04:51:02 <Sgeo> "LoseThos is not for pathetic hardware -- it's 64-bit and multicored. That's a
04:51:03 <Sgeo> common misconception."
04:51:27 <Sgeo> non-multicolored hardware EXISTS?
04:51:52 <Sgeo> (you know what i mean when I asked that)
04:53:27 <catseye> Sgeo: Multi-CORED
04:53:31 <catseye> Is different!
04:53:35 <Sgeo> Oh
04:53:43 <catseye> btw
04:53:43 <Sgeo> >.>
04:53:48 <catseye> Roger Penrose.
04:54:02 <Sgeo> I actually thought it was a typo
04:54:05 <catseye> Need to ask elliott what he thinks of Roger Penrose, wen I see him next.
04:54:07 * Sgeo facepalms at self
04:54:24 <Sgeo> @note elliott catseye wants to know what you think of Roger Penrose
04:54:31 <Sgeo> Dammit
04:54:36 <Sgeo> !note elliott catseye wants to know what you think of Roger Penrose
04:54:45 <catseye> (/me thinks Roger Penrose is a GEN-YOO-INE CRAZY PERSON btw)
04:54:56 <catseye> Sgeo: it's @tell and the bot's not here
04:55:00 <Sgeo> Ah
04:55:08 <catseye> I need to rewrite it in Go
04:55:18 <catseye> For my own incomprehensible reasons
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04:55:50 <Sgeo> Rewrite it in Factor!
04:56:04 <catseye> Ooooooh.
04:56:19 <catseye> Oh, I wish I could.
04:56:30 <catseye> Maybe I can...
04:56:42 <catseye> I want to write it in something really wrong.
04:57:12 <Sgeo> I don't know whether to say "There's nothing wrong with Factor" or not
04:57:23 <catseye> I keep gravitating towards R, because it is popular (amongst statisticians,) but wrong oh so wrong for just about everything else.
04:57:48 <catseye> I don't even know if you could do a bot, in it. Probably...
04:57:57 <catseye> (with nc's support)
04:58:04 <Sgeo> Coq!
04:58:13 <catseye> HAHAHA
04:58:39 <catseye> That's quite drôle.
04:59:30 <catseye> I'm still worried about where the missing half of my molar went, though. I mean, damn! That's a tooth! There shouldn't be a HOLE there.
04:59:41 <catseye> Well, dentist appt on the 20th...
05:01:42 <catseye> There is this book of papers, in celebration of some anniversary of the publication of Turing's paper about Turing machines, I think. It has some interesting papers in it. It would be #3 on my reading list. But I can't find it.
05:02:02 <catseye> One of the papers is by Penrose, and it's an early version of his "Shadows of the Mind" bullshit.
05:02:16 <catseye> And his arguments are obviously fallacious.
05:02:44 <catseye> "You can't duplicate someone's consciousness, because gee, I can't imagine that!" sort of stuff.
05:03:16 <catseye> The other papers are OK. Not all great, but interesting.
05:05:51 <catseye> http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Turing-Machine-Half-Century-Computerkultur/dp/3211826378
05:05:54 <catseye> i think that's the one
05:06:07 <catseye> 1937 -> 1987
05:06:54 <catseye> wish i had some nachos about now
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05:09:40 <catseye> What is the difference between "Alt" and "Alt Gr"?
05:10:51 <Gregor> catseye: Alt Gr chooses an alternate symbol set. It's like a different dimension of shift.
05:11:21 <catseye> Gregor: except I've never seen it ever never do any such thing.
05:11:36 <catseye> It just does alt.
05:11:47 <catseye> meta-Lctrl-J
05:11:47 <Gregor> catseye: You're an American, aren't you?
05:11:50 <catseye> ???!?
05:11:50 -!- Sgeo has joined.
05:11:56 <Gregor> catseye: How did you even FIND a keyboard with Alt Gr?
05:12:04 <catseye> Gregor: CANADIAN, thankyouverymuch.
05:12:10 <catseye> Gregor: It's on this laptop!
05:12:17 <Gregor> Canada: Still America's hat.
05:12:28 <catseye> Along with dedicated $ and Euro keys, it seems.
05:12:45 <catseye> Which do not do anything under Ubuntu, it seems.
05:12:58 <catseye> It's an Acer Aspire 3680-2354
05:12:59 <Gregor> catseye: Well, if it doesn't activate an alternate character set, then that's because you have it configured to use a non-international keyboard layout :P
05:13:27 <catseye> Probably so
05:16:40 <catseye> it should fuckin have a scrollbar!!! that's obvious. yay you have no idea what i'm talking about
05:17:40 <catseye> i mean when you have a window full of icons that is half off the screen
05:18:04 * catseye is chilly, gets sweater
05:21:01 <catseye> pypy
05:22:13 <catseye> It's great how there's so much code out there that is just completely useless and forgettable.
05:22:45 <catseye> The day will come, the cherry blossoms will fall, and no one will care about your code.
05:23:04 <pikhq> Ah, code rot.
05:23:26 <pikhq> "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despire".
05:23:29 <pikhq> ...
05:23:34 <pikhq> s/despire/despair/
05:25:37 <catseye> <3 it all though.
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05:29:13 <catseye> There's so much CODE out there! Did Turing ever have an inlkling (1938!) that it would be like this? Somewhere, right now, a C program is falling through a switch case that the author never intended it to.
05:30:03 <catseye> It is a bug. But the consequences aren't costing the owner of the code *very much* money. So it's not being fixed.
05:30:24 <catseye> It's in the backlog (maybe -- if it's been noticed.) It might get into the sprint someday.
05:31:20 <catseye> *inkling
05:36:53 <catseye> OK -- this would be #4 (is it?) on my "esoteric reading list":
05:36:55 <catseye> http://www.rdwarf.com/users/kioh/
05:39:06 <catseye> for instance http://www.rdwarf.com/users/kioh/haxorec54KB.jpg
05:42:19 <catseye> but i should say,
05:42:24 <catseye> i think,
05:42:32 <catseye> history, cruel as it is,
05:42:41 <catseye> will remember us, among these cherry blossoms,
05:42:48 <catseye> as the composers of this time.
05:43:16 <catseye> maybe #5 should be Hesse's "Glass Bead Game"
05:43:44 <catseye> the merge of mathematics and music as art as we know it is becomes obsolete.
05:43:54 <catseye> *merging
05:44:23 <catseye> THEN AGAIN, I AM QUITE DURNK, SO OK?
05:44:29 <Gregor> catseye: ORLY?
05:44:34 <Gregor> pikhq: http://poll.fm/2c4e9 (So anonymous :P )
05:48:23 <pikhq> ... Wait, I think I meant 7. Dammit.
05:48:53 <pikhq> You need a higher sample group.
05:49:13 <Gregor> SHOCKINGLY, random computer scientist in Indi-aaaa-na doesn't have many fans :P
05:50:20 <pikhq> You should position yourself as an up-and-coming composer instead.
05:51:57 <Sgeo> Gregor, Opus 12
05:51:58 <Gregor> My grandmother has become obsessive and weird about op. 13 mov. 1. She wants me to sell it. Or something. Idonno. Apparently all I have to do is write something in a major key to placate her.
05:52:04 <Gregor> Sgeo: NOT VALID
05:52:21 <Sgeo> =P
05:53:02 <Sgeo> That's my write-in vote
05:53:25 <Sgeo> ...you can't see the write-ins, can you?
05:53:29 <Gregor> Yes.
05:53:52 <Gregor> I only put "other" there so people write in ZEE[1-5] or GM1 or some weird stuff I've forgotten about.
05:53:55 <pikhq> ... Dammit.
05:54:04 <pikhq> I should have asked for a rerecording of Op. 1.
05:54:05 <pikhq> :P
05:54:33 <Gregor> pikhq: I actually probably could find op. 1 ...
05:54:39 <catseye> Damn, I should have said Zee5. Or whatever oneo f those it is that I like.
05:54:45 <Gregor> I should ask my mom if she has a VHS of it lying around somewhere.
05:54:55 <Gregor> Who the hell wrote "woodwind quintet ftw" X_D
05:54:56 <Gregor> *X-D
05:55:03 <pikhq> Gregor: You said that it was lost forever, though.
05:55:07 <pikhq> Gregor: Clearly, you lie.
05:55:12 <Gregor> pikhq: I do lie.
05:55:18 <Sgeo> I'm certain Miss Zarves would love to hear Opus 12
05:55:19 <Gregor> pikhq: It also probably is lost forever.
05:55:19 <catseye> Gregor: HAHAH I haven't even HEARD your window stuff.
05:55:23 <pikhq> Gregor: And should make a recording of Op. 1 through 4, just so we can mock your suck.
05:55:23 <catseye> Err, woodwind stuff.
05:55:30 <catseye> Yet I voted fo it.
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05:56:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Hmm. Kill Yourself?
05:56:11 <pikhq> ... Naah, that just needs someone to cover it.
05:56:16 <catseye> Wow.
05:56:27 <Gregor> pikhq: Yeah, needs someone with a voice that is not my voice.
05:56:35 <pikhq> Srsly
05:56:43 <Sgeo> We. Want. Opus. Twelve.
05:56:48 <Sgeo> We. Want. Opus. Twelve.
05:56:52 <Gregor> Sgeo: If by "we" ... you mean "you"
05:56:56 <Gregor> Err
05:57:01 <Gregor> Actually you mean "I"
05:57:04 <Gregor> But yeah
05:57:09 <catseye> Dude, Gregor's low-opus-numbers can't be 10x worse than my low-opus-numbers.
05:57:16 <pikhq> Same for DCVOGLLMRCMCDP. :P (nice acronym, BTW)
05:57:28 <pikhq> catseye: I guarantee his are significantly better than mine.
05:57:31 <pikhq> As I don't have any.
05:57:34 <catseye> All highly repetitive and awful SID tunes on the commodore 64.
05:57:42 <pikhq> The power of being a performer but not a composer. :P
05:58:06 <catseye> With cheesy titles, which Gregor staunchy avoids with... antiseptic opus numbers.
05:58:19 <pikhq> Op. 13 has titles in it!
05:58:28 <Gregor> catseye: I avoid titles not because I don't like good titles, but because I'm title-incompetent.
05:58:29 <pikhq> Nocturne in Three and Finale in Three.
05:58:48 <pikhq> Gregor: Well demonstrated.
05:58:49 <catseye> Those come close to being titles, I suppose.
05:58:49 <pikhq> :)
05:59:07 <pikhq> I've definitely got them on title tag.
05:59:09 <Gregor> My friend Eric keeps asking me for UNIX commands to turn into titles.
05:59:25 <catseye> Still, it's not like "Death and the Maiden" and so.
05:59:46 <pikhq> Gregor: If you can make a piece for which fdisk would be an appropriate title, you might win at music.
05:59:55 <pikhq> Erm.
05:59:56 <pikhq> fsck
05:59:56 <pikhq> That.
06:00:20 <Sgeo> http://www.aaronshep.com/rt/RTE32.html
06:00:27 <catseye> That is... so... not right.
06:00:29 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
06:00:30 <Sgeo> How isn't this a major, major copyright violation/
06:00:42 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
06:00:45 <catseye> There is a definite split here.
06:01:09 <catseye> Either "fdisk" is the worst ever title for a piece of music, because you are being pretentiously geeky, or
06:01:27 <catseye> "fdisk" is a beautiful title, because you have captured it exactly.
06:01:28 <catseye> Good luck.
06:01:36 <catseye> GOOD LUCK.
06:02:35 <catseye> Sgeo: ?
06:02:35 <pikhq> catseye: Obviously, I want him to capture it exactly.
06:02:43 <pikhq> GOOD LUCK.
06:03:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: "Story copyright © 1985 Louis Sachar. Script copyright © 1993, 2003, 2005 Aaron Shepard. Produced by permission of Avon Books, a division of the Hearst Corporation. Scripts in this series are free and may be copied, shared, and performed for any noncommercial purpose, except they may not be posted online without permission."
06:03:22 <pikhq> And it's on Aaron Shepard's website.
06:03:42 <pikhq> It is not a copyright violation because the copyright holders approve.
06:03:52 <pikhq> Tautological but true.
06:04:11 <Gregor> It's a tautology ... AND YET IT'S TRUE!
06:04:13 <catseye> Schubert is OK but Beethoven is way better.
06:04:41 <Sgeo> I don't think I've read the first book
06:04:58 <Sgeo> I've read Wayside School Gets a Little Stranger, and a bit of the math one
06:05:05 <pikhq> Gregor: :D
06:05:21 <catseye> eine kleine pimpmusik
06:05:22 <Sgeo> (I skipped over the chapter that was talking about feminine underwear. I was a kid, and it made me uncomfortable)
06:05:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: The book touch you in naughty places?
06:05:55 <Gregor> `addquote <catseye> eine kleine pimpmusik
06:06:22 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uOxOgm5jQ4
06:07:02 <Sgeo> ...there had to have been more stories than were on this page
06:07:11 <catseye> Gregor: wakka wakka wakka chow-wow
06:07:16 <HackEgo> 244|<catseye> eine kleine pimpmusik
06:07:17 <Sgeo> I guess that's why this script is online
06:08:14 <Sgeo> ...there were THREE books?
06:08:23 <Sgeo> (not counting the math one)
06:09:04 <catseye> The prof teaching the sight-singing course always wore long-sleeved sweaters... we conjecture that this was to conceal the needle tracks
06:09:11 <catseye> *conjectured
06:10:55 <catseye> hole where outside part of molar supposed to be!
06:12:15 <Sgeo> R.I.P. catseye's tooth
06:12:32 <Sgeo> Or at least, part of tooth
06:13:08 <catseye> It was abducted by aliens!
06:19:51 <catseye> In this state, my music goes by waay too quick
06:20:46 <catseye> Sgeo: Commodore 64?
06:20:51 <catseye> Gregor: Commodore 64?
06:21:08 <Gregor> I had a C64.
06:21:11 * Gregor remembers fondly.
06:21:47 <Gregor> Actually, like most other people who had a C64, I had a C128.
06:22:38 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv6Ewqx3PMs
06:23:05 <catseye> Song is not great, but I remember the video. Cute puppet.
06:23:58 <catseye> Gregor: I'm not sure what to make of the C64 now. I had a genuine C64, to start. Then a C64C as well (the power supply on those was more reliable.)
06:25:38 <catseye> My earliest music, though -- written as SIDPIC songs.
06:26:11 <Gregor> circle-triangle-underscore, EPIC, wide X
06:28:08 <catseye> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-EcasIakX4 -- MSeq sounds like something you'd do to a Monad
06:29:07 <catseye> WELL IT DOES
06:30:58 <pikhq> Typelevel strictness?
06:35:29 <pikhq> ...
06:36:00 <catseye> MY ANSWER TO THIS is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4n_zZ4TZ48
06:36:03 <pikhq> Someone reverse engineered Nethack's PRNG... And then logged onto a public server, killed himself on the first level by kicking a wand of wishing, three times a day.
06:36:25 <Gregor> pikhq: Uhhhhh
06:36:33 <pikhq> http://alt.org/nethack/player-all.php?player=WowDeath Yes.
06:36:46 <pikhq> Gregor: He could have done a bunch of ascensions, but that's funnier.
06:38:47 <pikhq> Oh, whaddya know. ais523 developed the bot that does that.
06:38:54 <pikhq> Awesome.
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06:40:11 <catseye> We are all pretty smart here, and we consistently apply it to pretty useless things.
06:40:18 <catseye> Hi zzo38!
06:40:20 <pikhq> Yup.
06:40:39 <zzo38> catseye: You are probably right..... that is one of the things done in esolangs.
06:42:35 <zzo38> I got the subroutine code working, using the PHA and RTS and stuff. Whoever told me was correct.
06:44:47 <catseye> zzo38: About the divide-by-3? cool.
06:45:21 <zzo38> catseye: No, not the divide-by-3. But my other question about how the PC is returned from the stack, worked.
06:45:29 <catseye> zzo38: Ah.
06:46:09 <zzo38> (The emulator I use allows memory view function to work even for .NSF files, which is helpful that I can see that it is working.
06:47:05 <catseye> I am sitting here, inebriated, writing nothing myself, listening to Mendelsohnn's violin concerto in E minor in amazement.
06:48:27 <zzo38> Why?
06:48:38 <GreaseMonkey> also, do not pass go, do not collect 200 zorkmids
06:48:46 <zzo38> It looks like you are writing this message, isn't it?
06:49:02 <GreaseMonkey> that's wrt the wowdeath thing
06:49:17 <zzo38> I am still not quite sure how to make the divide by three.
06:49:28 <catseye> I collected 290 zorkmids! how unfortunate.
06:50:01 * catseye pays it back, with interest
06:50:54 <GreaseMonkey> and i'm off, cya
06:51:51 <catseye> interest.
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06:53:15 <zzo38> By looking at the PPMCK codes, I see a lot of codes JSR followed by RTS, but I though JMP should be usually just as good, isn't it?
06:54:37 <catseye> zzo38: Yep. "Tail call"s!
06:56:43 <catseye> btw, I forgot who aksed, but... I got a copy of "ML for the Working Programmer" -- good introduction to functional programming, because it doesn't dwell on the trivial parts for too long, and it gets into some interesting implementations, like a lambda calculus interpreter,
06:56:58 <catseye> good night,
06:57:05 <zzo38> There is another way that works: http://sprunge.us/NYhO
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07:25:11 <zzo38> If I can make it divide by three, then I can make it the codes with semicolons to work correctly. http://sprunge.us/KFZW
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08:41:56 <asiekierka> hello
08:52:07 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[afk].
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10:13:45 <asie[afk]> "By 1992 that same company'reshaped into Outukumpu Metals Group (OMG; Cleveland)'posted sales of $200 million."
10:13:49 <asie[afk]> yes, a company called OMG
10:16:26 <augur> asie[afk]: have i mentioned my new company LULZ?
10:16:44 <augur> its a daughter company of my previous company WTFBBQ
10:20:41 <asie[afk]> but the OMG one is real
10:20:54 <asie[afk]> i haven't heard of a company called WTFBBQ
10:32:50 <fizzie> Outokumpu sounds morelikely than Outukumpu.
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11:39:05 <asie[afk]> guys
11:39:16 <asie[afk]> do you know any Brainf**k code that can be used as a benchmark for interpreters
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13:20:27 <Vorpal> <asie[afk]> do you know any Brainf**k code that can be used as a benchmark for interpreters <-- that mandelbrot one?
13:20:38 <Vorpal> asie[afk], it depends on exactly what you want to measure.
13:21:49 <Vorpal> lostking can be useful to measure how well it handles large code, but it isn't especially computation intensive, the mandlebrot one is not very large (well, for being brainfuck that is), but is quite computation intensive
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14:31:08 <elliott> 19:36:13 <zzo38> There are many Linux distributions, Ubuntu is not the only one, so, you can pick whichever one you want, or even write your own
14:31:16 <elliott> catseye: so did you write your own?
14:31:36 <elliott> or are you stuck into the false monochotomy of Ubuntu?!?!
14:36:58 <elliott> 20:54:05 <catseye> Need to ask elliott what he thinks of Roger Penrose, wen I see him next.
14:37:01 <elliott> more detailed question plz
14:37:47 <elliott> 21:11:56 <Gregor> catseye: How did you even FIND a keyboard with Alt Gr?
14:37:51 <elliott> UK keyboards have alt gr
14:38:14 <elliott> 21:23:26 <pikhq> "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despire".
14:38:17 <elliott> despire, new favourite word
14:38:19 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, but catseye is not in the UK.
14:38:26 <Gregor> And US keyboards do not.
14:38:27 <elliott> Gregor: doesn't mean he hasn't ever been
14:40:51 <elliott> 21:58:28 <Gregor> catseye: I avoid titles not because I don't like good titles, but because I'm title-incompetent.
14:40:56 <elliott> Archaeology on a Summer's Rapey Afternoon
14:41:11 <Gregor> Speaking of title-incompetent ...
14:41:23 <elliott> Gregor: That's Opus 14's title.
14:41:25 <elliott> You must
14:41:32 <Gregor> I shall not.
14:41:38 <elliott> Fine
14:41:51 <elliott> Gregor: Theme from "Tarski and Hutch"
14:43:00 <elliott> Gregor: C'mon, that is an amazing title.
14:45:41 <elliott> 22:38:47 <pikhq> Oh, whaddya know. ais523 developed the bot that does that.
14:45:42 <elliott> 22:38:54 <pikhq> Awesome.
14:45:42 <elliott> which one?
14:45:46 <elliott> was it TAEB or one he custom-made?
14:45:51 <elliott> ais didn't do TAEB, just TAEB::Planar
14:45:59 <elliott> or TAEB::AI::Planar, whatever it is
14:48:13 <elliott> [[earth_is_flat -6 points 2 hours ago[-]
14:48:13 <elliott> but science is so perfect, so pure, with its theory of evolution that doesn't apply to people, its theories on humors that morphed into germ theory that became stem cell theory and gene theory, and its communist beliefs in public health....lol]]
14:59:33 <Vorpal> hrrm, what are the chances of the ipsec daemon, the ipv6 router daemon and an ipv6 multicast daemon not interfering with each other? I should be able to get ipv6 multicast it seems.
14:59:49 <Vorpal> seems the sixxs POP I'm connected to recently added support for that
15:00:40 <catseye> elliott: i totally wrote my own. last night. running it now. yep.
15:01:08 <elliott> catseye: is the windows partition really important? i'd have just upgraded the ubuntu install
15:03:36 <elliott> Gregor: Does not-quite-debtakeover work?
15:04:21 <Gregor> elliott: It did at some point. I haven't tested it in a long while.
15:04:44 <catseye> elliott: i guess the windows partition is a "nice to have" and it sounded more of a known quantity than upgrading ubuntu, given that they both require that i back up my files somehow.
15:05:42 <elliott> Gregor: Would it work to convert a bastardised half-Debian with a custom bootloader and an insane linuxrc on an ARM platform that uses Xfbdev?
15:05:47 <elliott> To actual Debian?
15:06:00 <elliott> catseye: just move the ubuntu files to the windows partition
15:06:02 <elliott> catseye: if there's space
15:06:03 <elliott> unless
15:06:04 <elliott> wait
15:06:05 <elliott> never mind
15:06:12 <elliott> that wouldn't work
15:06:30 <Gregor> elliott: I've only tried it on borderline-sensible systems, and haven't tried it on ARM, so all I can say is "dorp."
15:07:08 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I got a debootstrap chroot working, and even got the init script to load into it.
15:07:13 <elliott> (I fucked it up for irrelevant reasons but that's not important.)
15:07:22 <elliott> Gregor: It's just, y'know, I sorta don't want the Evil System above it.
15:08:25 <catseye> elliott: once i am conscious today i plan to go out and buy something. external hdd that works, external dvd writer, or a Mac or something.
15:08:30 <catseye> no, not a mac.
15:08:52 <Gregor> elliott: It's worth a try but I guarantee nothing :P
15:08:56 <elliott> catseye: You'd probably love a Mac for a week because suddenly you've forgotten what Windows and Linux are and "hey, it's BSD" and then suddenly you want to murder someone.
15:09:17 <elliott> And you do it, because Macs make people GOAL-ORIENTED.
15:09:20 <elliott> *CRAZY.
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15:09:25 <elliott> WHOOPS
15:09:57 <catseye> elliott: it's weird, but many of the developers where I work use Macs. So I've actually had to deal with porting-to-Mac issues at work.
15:10:04 <catseye> "it's BSD". Suuuuure.
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15:10:21 <catseye> I can't even get processes to change their process group!
15:10:56 <catseye> That userland veneer isn't fooling me!
15:11:06 <elliott> catseye: It's actually BSD running on Mach. X_X
15:11:39 <Gregor> Which is totally the intended use of Mach. Take this microkernel infrastructure, then slap a monolithic kernel on it. PROBLEM SOLVED.
15:13:55 <catseye> So wish I had a working burner. But I'm not trusting an external burner to be usable by this computer, now. An external HDD, at least that's a fairly generic USB storage device that any OS ought to understand.
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15:24:58 <pikhq> Gregor: Hooray, BSD-Mach! MkLinux! Retardedness!
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15:34:52 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor: Would it work to convert a bastardised half-Debian with a custom bootloader and an insane linuxrc on an ARM platform that uses Xfbdev? <-- is this about that weird thingy again?
15:35:11 <Vorpal> you know, the one you fucked up twice
15:40:59 <elliott> Vorpal: yes.
15:41:10 <elliott> Vorpal: but hey, before i fucked it up the second time, it booted into debian
15:41:11 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, have fun
15:41:12 <elliott> with getty!
15:41:17 <elliott> *gettys, even, plural!
15:41:23 <elliott> Vorpal: well it's still bricked...
15:41:24 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right, how did you fuck it up then?
15:41:38 <Vorpal> (I forgot)
15:42:01 <elliott> Vorpal: i tried to make getty use something other than /bin/login that cleared the screen first to clear up some visual artefacts from the bootloader
15:42:10 <elliott> but since it was such a freaking simple change, i didn't bother to have a /bin/login one around
15:42:15 <elliott> turns out linux makes no sense at all
15:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, hm.
15:44:00 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:44:07 <elliott> hmm too many spaces for a title bar
15:44:11 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:44:14 <Vorpal> elliott, not at all
15:44:17 <Vorpal> fits perfectly here
15:44:20 <elliott> some people have smaller windows :P
15:44:28 <Vorpal> not that it goes into my actual title bar though
15:44:31 <elliott> ok you're right
15:44:33 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:44:33 <Vorpal> that still says just emacs :P
15:44:36 <elliott> Vorpal: i meant topic bar
15:44:40 <Vorpal> well okay
15:44:41 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:44:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it is halway through my topic bar atm
15:44:50 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:44:56 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm aligning it perfectly to mine and fuck everyone else :D
15:44:56 <Vorpal> a bit more than halfway
15:45:01 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:04 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:07 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:10 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:11 <Vorpal> argh
15:45:12 <Vorpal> spam
15:45:12 <elliott> yay
15:45:14 <elliott> there we go
15:45:20 -!- Vorpal has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:22 <Vorpal> there we go
15:45:23 <Vorpal> perfect
15:45:24 <Vorpal> ;P
15:45:25 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoit Mandelbrot http://is.gd/g4uID.
15:45:28 <elliott> FIGHT
15:45:33 <elliott> Vorpal: no this is disrespectful.
15:45:34 <elliott> the man died!
15:45:38 <Vorpal> elliott, nah, not worth doing a fight
15:45:42 <elliott> MWAHAHA IW IN
15:45:45 <elliott> *I WIN
15:45:46 <elliott> *ahem*
15:45:50 <Vorpal> err
15:47:45 <elliott> Vorpal: i only put spaces there because i thought it's a bit lame to have a eulogy for someone so awesome right next to a long log link drowning it out
15:47:47 <elliott> (also why i shortened it)
15:47:54 <elliott> this logic is admittedly leaky
15:48:14 <Vorpal> hm
15:51:10 <pikhq> elliott: Benoît Mandelbrot died? Citation?
15:51:36 <elliott> http://kottke.org/10/10/benoit-mandelbrot-rip cites a lot of twats on Twitter (unreliable, but...)
15:51:37 <elliott> and http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/
15:51:42 <elliott> Nassim Nicholas Taleb's website
15:51:44 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb
15:52:04 <elliott> "Taleb is collaborating with Benoit Mandelbrot on a general theory of risk management.[59]"
15:52:08 <elliott> so if he says Mandelbrot's dead...
15:52:26 <pikhq> He's either correct or the worst kind of troll.
15:52:36 <elliott> pikhq: I don't think he's evil :P
15:57:05 <elliott> "Thank you very much. Excuse me for sitting I am very old." -- Mandelbrot, TED talk, February 2010
15:57:36 <elliott> *Please excuse
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16:21:37 <pikhq> Maan. The reason behind so many poor design decisions in Javascript.
16:21:48 <pikhq> "Give me a break; we had 10 days and it had to look like Java."
16:22:43 <pikhq> Most perverse is its complete lack of integers.
16:23:26 <elliott> pikhq: JavaScript was the result of Brendan Eich being told to write something like Java and deciding to make it as much like Scheme as he could.
16:23:37 <elliott> Think what it would have been like if he'd just made something like Java. The man's a hero!
16:23:55 <pikhq> Quite true.
16:24:17 <pikhq> You've got to give him credit for churning out something not completely revolting in 10 days. :)
16:26:42 <pikhq> “Ten days without much sleep to build JS from scratch, "make it look like Java" (I made it look like C), and smuggle in its saving graces: first class functions (closures came later but were part of the plan), Self-ish prototypes (one per instance, not many as in Self).”
16:26:46 <pikhq> :D
16:27:35 <elliott> :D
16:33:54 <pikhq> o.O'
16:34:15 <pikhq> Apparently, Windows has *two* different notions of the default character set.
16:34:22 <pikhq> The "OEM" and the "ANSI" code pages.
16:34:49 <pikhq> The "OEM" code pages are chosen from the DOS set, and are used for DOS programs.
16:35:07 <pikhq> The "ANSI" code pages are the full set of Windows-supported character sets, and are used for everything else.
16:38:54 <elliott> pikhq: Indeed.
16:41:24 <pikhq> So many crazy hacks.
16:41:47 <pikhq> Though I guess it's at least justified since they still have the *notion* of running this freakish, 30 year old programs.
16:41:55 <pikhq> Erm, these.
16:43:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, yeah on sane systems you use something like dosbox to run them :P
16:43:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: DOSemu if you're sufficiently lucky. :)
16:43:58 <pikhq> Though, it doesn't take *much* luck to be running x86.
16:44:09 <pikhq> Or x86_64.
16:44:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, I thought it needed vm86() which wouldn't work on x86-64
16:45:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: On x86-64, it emulates an 8086.
16:45:20 <pikhq> But directly executes 32-bit code.
16:45:39 <Vorpal> huh
16:46:05 <pikhq> It's not hard to just emulate an 8086, after all. :)
16:46:56 <elliott> pikhq: i am now going to use the FELL TYPES
16:46:59 <elliott> this fact must always be announced
16:47:16 <pikhq> You would.
16:47:23 <elliott> pikhq: You...what?
16:48:10 <pikhq> Snarky, somewhat rude, yet utterly meaningless comment in American vernacular.
16:48:27 <elliott> pikhq: I get that, I just didn't see the relevance at all :)
16:48:39 <elliott> I wonder if \documentclass{memoir} would work for a newspaper/magazine type dealie...
16:48:52 <pikhq> elliott: It made sense when I hit enter.
16:49:40 <pikhq> Hmm. On other architectures, you *could* use qemu to run dosemu. XD
16:51:10 <Vorpal> argh, where the fuck is the details of the ipsec netlink kernel interface documented. Not in any man page I can find, nor in the Documentation directory of the kernel it seems!
16:52:28 <Ilari> Haha (rough translation): "Sugar is harmful but only if it fattens, hard fat is harmful even if it doesn't fatten" -- Cholesterol researcher Petri Kovanen. M-M-M-MONSTER FAIL!
16:54:35 <Ilari> Apparently he got sugar and hard fat the wrong way around...
16:55:06 <pikhq> Huh. Adobe has documentation on how to use a 32-bit Flash on 64-bit systems. They actually point you towards nspluginwrapper.
16:55:10 <elliott> new vocabulary entry: M-M-M-MONSTER FAIL!
16:55:51 <pikhq> Ilari: I. Uh. Um?
16:56:35 <elliott> pikhq: "I. Uh. Um?"?
16:57:19 <Vorpal> elliott, that is yet another new entry!
16:57:56 <pikhq> elliott: .|..
16:57:57 <Ilari> I din't invent that... :-/
16:58:07 <elliott> Ilari: Never heard it though.
16:58:13 <elliott> pikhq: You sure are angry today.
16:58:27 <pikhq> AAANGER
16:58:54 <elliott> pikhq: At what/whom?
16:59:14 <pikhq> Nothing at all.
17:02:00 <Ilari> Well, if the "hard fat" is techno fat (as opposed to animal fat or one of few kinds hard plant fats), then its harmful even if it doesn't fatten...
17:09:36 <elliott> pikhq: \setmainfont[Mapping=tex-text]{IM FELL Great Primer PRO}
17:09:38 <elliott> a w e s o m e
17:10:19 <elliott> pikhq: [[I'd suggest you try LuaLaTeX with fontspec from github[1], it should
17:10:19 <elliott> work with microtype package while being able to use OpenType fonts. But
17:10:19 <elliott> note that this is a development version of fontspec and not very well
17:10:19 <elliott> tested.]]
17:10:31 <elliott> pikhq: LuaTeX can do OpenType and microtype. Discuss.
17:11:55 <pikhq> Isn't LuaTeX the replacement for pdfTeX?
17:14:43 <elliott> pikhq: Yes.
17:15:03 <elliott> pikhq: And if you have TeX, you probably have LuaTeX too.
17:15:06 <elliott> Try it.
17:16:00 <pikhq> Mrf
17:16:15 <elliott> http://github.com/wspr/fontspec
17:16:18 <elliott> "This is the initial generation of the fontspec package with support for LuaLaTeX. (Previously, fontspec was XeLaTeX-only.)"
17:16:37 <elliott> It's on CTAN.
17:16:57 <elliott> Dunno if that's the LuaTeX-supporting version, though.
17:17:04 <elliott> pikhq: Regardless: MICROTYPE WITH OPENTYPE FONTS OMG OMG OMG
17:19:18 <pikhq> \o/
17:22:25 <elliott> pikhq: Feck; you need TeX Live 2010.
17:22:28 <elliott> Ubuntu has 2009.
17:22:33 <elliott> pikhq: Are you still on Gentoo?
17:25:26 <elliott> fungot: bork
17:25:26 <fungot> elliott: look and say, hey, look, i just want ( 3 2) ( 2 5)" means end the current box with a web server etc, and it
17:27:35 <pikhq> elliott: Yes.
17:27:42 <elliott> pikhq: bah!
17:28:02 <pikhq> I have concluded that everybody sucks at everything, and keeping Gentoo is less work.
17:30:10 <elliott> fungot: aptik
17:30:10 <fungot> elliott: it's what i'm doing. plz let me try your benchmark...
17:30:11 <elliott> pikhq: KITTEN
17:31:56 <pikhq> elliott: KI'TENN
17:33:57 <elliott> pikhq: Things that are ridiculous: the st ligature
17:38:16 <pikhq> Things that are ridiculous: how poor text display is on computers.
17:39:14 <elliott> pikhq: no it's awesome
17:39:15 <elliott> and so is linux
17:40:04 <pikhq> Awesomely bad, perhaps.
17:40:31 <elliott> pikhq: you know what else is awesome?
17:40:33 <elliott> software
17:43:53 <Vorpal> argh, nmap can't do UDP scan over ipv6
17:43:59 <Vorpal> how the fuck am I supposed to debug this then
17:47:02 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:49:34 <ais523> hmm, does the link in the topics go to the logs?
17:53:22 <elliott> ais523: yse
17:53:23 <elliott> *yes
17:53:34 <ais523> hard to tell with a shortener involved
17:53:39 <elliott> ais523: I shortened it out of some sort of warped respect for Mandelbrot that I shouldn't make anything overshadow the RIP
17:53:48 <ais523> ah, I see
17:53:51 <elliott> I would have removed the log link but that violates Freenode's policy.
17:53:56 <ais523> it looks like the link is going to an obituary or something
17:54:05 <elliott> ais523: I might add some sort of divider.
17:54:09 <ais523> I didn't even realise that Mandelbrot had been still alive...
17:54:09 <elliott> Hmm, I've spelled his name incorrectly.
17:54:53 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoît Mandelbrot (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID).
17:55:06 <ais523> that's better
17:55:11 <ais523> even though my client filters out the multiple spaces
17:56:45 <elliott> your client is odd
17:58:10 <ais523> nah, it's just doing things Befunge-98-style rather than Befunge-93-style
17:58:14 <ais523> see, nice and modern!
18:03:19 <elliott> pikhq: I will now download a torrent from torrentz using only the infohash and the tracker list.
18:03:32 <elliott> Because I'm kerr-aazy
18:05:00 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:05:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:06:27 <elliott> pikhq: Do per-file priorities actually work well?
18:08:50 <elliott> Answer: Hell yeah they do.
18:09:36 <Vorpal> this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in any respect
18:10:30 <quintopia> oshit mandelbrot died? :(((
18:10:50 <Vorpal> same version of strongswan on two different computers, both claim to be sending the packets to set up ipsec. Only one side actually sends such packages according to wireshark, Turning off all firewalls doesn't help.
18:15:13 <elliott> quintopia: no, we're just saying RIP Mandelbrot because he's gone to sleep
18:15:15 <elliott> and we want him to rest peacefully
18:15:17 <elliott> yes he's dead.
18:15:36 <quintopia> elliott: you're an asshole kthx
18:15:53 <elliott> quintopia: well i could have just /not/ put the obituary in the topic.
18:16:10 <pikhq> elliott: Mmm, screw torrent files.
18:16:22 <quintopia> ....that's not an obit
18:16:23 <elliott> pikhq: it worked fine
18:16:27 <elliott> bit of time to connect though
18:16:31 <elliott> quintopia: well he's dead and there's spaces.
18:16:34 <elliott> the spaces are the obit
18:16:40 <quintopia> but seriously, here i am expressing my distress at his death, and you're like "o yah, you're an idiot"
18:16:43 <elliott> they're, like, fractal space
18:16:46 <elliott> s
18:17:26 <Vorpal> wait, what, now it works and then ipv4 stops working?
18:26:38 * pikhq wonders why Java bootstraps
18:29:53 -!- quintopia has set topic: RIP Benot Mandelbrot http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/us/17mandelbrot.html?_r=1 (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID).
18:29:58 <quintopia> that's an obit
18:30:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:30:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:35:05 <asie[afk]> back
18:35:32 <Sgeo> wb
18:36:57 <asie[afk]> Mandelbrot dead!? D:
18:37:15 <elliott> Yes.
18:37:26 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoît Mandelbrot (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID).
18:37:33 <elliott> the topic is deliberately sparse.
18:37:35 -!- asie[afk] has changed nick to asie[sad].
18:37:53 <asie[sad]> the worse thing is
18:37:58 <asie[sad]> this is the first time i've heard about him
18:38:23 <elliott> ...seriously?
18:38:37 <elliott> asie[sad]: Have you never seen the Mandelbrot set?
18:40:29 <asie[sad]> elliott: i have
18:40:38 <asie[sad]> but i didn't know who made it, other than it was someone named Mandelbrot
18:40:47 <asie[sad]> i didn't know his name was Benoît
18:41:14 <pikhq> Someone's not a Joco fan.
18:42:14 <quintopia> it is sad that
18:42:39 <elliott> pikhq: i listened to that song just minutes ago, heh
18:42:54 <elliott> "Mandelbrot's in heaven, at least he will be when he's dead / Right now he's still alive and teaching math at Yale" needs... updating
18:43:03 <elliott> although the song also describes how to construct a julia set
18:43:28 <pikhq> Yes, because the lyrics for a Mandelbrot set didn't fit as well. :P
18:43:40 <elliott> pikhq: iirc it was an actual mistake at first
18:43:43 <elliott> but then he decided it fit better
18:43:47 <pikhq> Eh.
18:43:52 <elliott> pikhq: on the *other* hand:
18:44:19 <elliott> ehh too long to paste
18:45:34 <elliott> anyway
18:45:38 <elliott> who wants to know hell itself?
18:45:52 <asie[sad]> Unlambda? no thanks
18:46:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:46:45 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Excess Flood).
18:47:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:48:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:48:09 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:48:23 <pikhq> ... Huh. Wal-Mart is attempting to become more environmentally friendly in its supply chain because it's concluded that raping the environment hurts their bottom line.
18:49:43 <elliott> pikhq: FREE MEERKAT IN ACTION
18:49:56 <elliott> *MARQUIS
18:49:57 <quintopia> the best way to a corporations heart is through its bottom line
18:49:58 <elliott> *MARKET
18:50:24 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, a large part of this is courtesy of subsidies in pretty much every developed nation but the US. :P
18:50:38 <elliott> FREEEEE MARQUIIIIIIIS
18:56:49 <Sgeo> FightClub is gone! C_SPLAT is gone!
19:02:52 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
19:04:59 <ais523> hmm, something wrong with the Crawl bots?
19:05:17 <ais523> Henzell and co are still on IRC
19:05:41 <ais523> so presumably, just the Crawl termcast bots
19:06:04 <ais523> hmm, they're back, as of about 5 minutes ago
19:10:06 <elliott> ais523: but why would you want to?
19:10:23 <ais523> elliott: context?
19:10:43 <ais523> even after checking scrollback, I don't understand the question
19:11:04 <elliott> ais523: watch Crawl, that is :)
19:11:11 <ais523> oh
19:11:25 <ais523> elliott: to gather evidence for a proof that Crawl is fundamentally boring
19:11:45 <elliott> ais523: the opposite of Vagrant
19:13:42 <pikhq> Wow. Newsweek was bought for $1.
19:13:43 <bsmntbombdood> hello
19:13:50 <pikhq> Not an *issue* of Newsweek. The entire operation.
19:13:55 <asie[sad]> pikhq: yeah, i know
19:14:01 <asie[sad]> links or it didnt happen
19:14:02 <pikhq> asie[sad]: I didn't!
19:14:11 <ais523> pikhq: presumably they bought the debt at the same time
19:14:13 <pikhq> asie[sad]: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/06/AR2010100606096_pf.html
19:14:14 <ais523> to reduce the price
19:14:16 <pikhq> ais523: Yes.
19:14:19 <ais523> that's the usual explanation
19:14:24 <pikhq> ais523: All $10 million of it.
19:14:40 <ais523> (at least it makes more sense than buying a company with its own money, like happened to Manchester United; I'm surprised that's even possible)
19:14:43 <asie[sad]> it's actually $10.000.001
19:14:50 <asie[sad]> because of the bills
19:15:16 <pikhq> ais523: Well, y'know, it's kinda like how you can pay off a credit card using another credit card.
19:15:22 <pikhq> (PEOPLE FUCKING DO THIS.)
19:15:49 <catseye> hi i've printed chits for my fantasy, wanna join?
19:15:56 <ais523> pikhq: well, it's not actually completely implausible
19:16:13 <ais523> in theory, given enough credit card companies and enough crazy introductory offers, you can actually make money like that
19:16:33 <ais523> what is insane, is paying off a credit card using another credit card, then continuing to use the first one, which is what often actually happens
19:17:36 <Gregor> Lap kitty!
19:18:46 <Sgeo> WTF
19:18:55 <Sgeo> That wasn't some weird typo like I was expecting
19:19:08 <elliott> Sgeo: It's not insane because of the debts.
19:19:33 <Sgeo> In that case, who'd want to buy it, even for $1?
19:19:45 <catseye> Sgeo: MOGULS
19:20:15 <Gregor> pikhq: That site indicates that $10 million of the (undisclosed) total dept is being paid by the ORIGINAL owner.
19:20:44 <Gregor> Err, debt :P
19:20:53 <ais523> hmm, so they bought all but $10 million of the debt
19:21:04 <Gregor> Yes.
19:21:15 <Gregor> Which is probably more on the order of 9 digits of debt than 8 :P
19:22:45 <elliott> <Sgeo> In that case, who'd want to buy it, even for $1?
19:22:50 <elliott> well because it's like buying it for $1 + debt
19:22:57 <elliott> so if you think you can make it profitable...
19:34:44 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, because of the sheer insanity of credit cards, people were able to keep that going for *ages*.
19:35:19 <ais523> it sounds like a way to game a naïve credit rating algorithm
19:35:33 <pikhq> Well, it does fuck with your credit score a lot.
19:35:44 <pikhq> Each new credit card application reduces your credit score.
19:35:48 <ais523> oh, phew
19:35:54 <ais523> I'm glad that safeguard exists
19:35:57 <pikhq> The thing is, credit card companies were handing out cards to just about anyone.
19:36:12 <ais523> I just had a horrifying realisation "hey, you're technically paying all the cards back all the time, wouldn't that lead to a perfect score?"
19:36:17 <pikhq> With the credit rating just determining your interest rate.
19:36:41 <ais523> I don't really understand credit cards at all
19:36:50 <ais523> they seem to be built on the assumption that people will forget to pay
19:36:51 <pikhq> Moral of the story: the US financial system is basically a gigantic casino.
19:36:54 <coppro> ais523: they are
19:37:04 <coppro> or, more precisely, the assumption that people will overspend
19:37:11 <coppro> and be unable to pay
19:37:16 <ais523> and yet, if people overspend, they go bankrupt and can't pay you back
19:37:37 <pikhq> You can only go bankrupt once every 8 years, IIRC.
19:37:55 <ais523> pikhq: oh, I'm not talking about technically bankrupt, but actually
19:38:07 <ais523> whether someone can legally go bankrupt or not doesn't influence whether they actually own any money
19:38:19 <pikhq> Also, they make quite a bit of money just off of people who merely pay the minimum fees.
19:38:39 <ais523> well, "just pay the minimum" is how you use a credit card as a loan
19:38:41 <pikhq> And, even more importantly for how they actually make money: they charge merchants per transaction.
19:38:47 <ais523> yep, I figured that
19:38:55 <ais523> also, they insist that credit card and cash prices are the same
19:39:16 <ais523> thus, every time you use a credit card, the person you're buying from loses money, compared to if you'd paid cash
19:39:45 <Sgeo> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb385791.aspx
19:39:49 <Sgeo> Does 7 use the same exact model?
19:40:01 <pikhq> Which means that they make at least a *small* amount of money just so long as they end up getting back at least 100% of what's paid for using credit cards.
19:40:07 <elliott> "This model, also used in Windows 7"
19:40:13 <elliott> Reading comprehension: It's where you READ something and you then COMPREHEND it.
19:40:19 <pikhq> (for instance, using them as a 1-month, 0 interest loan)
19:41:05 * Sgeo doesn't know how to stop skimming
19:41:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's actually a reasonable security model, surprisingly.
19:41:30 <pikhq> Basically making "administrator" a matter of being on the sudoers list.
19:41:42 <ais523> much of Windows' changes since Vista, apart from the DRM stuff, have been reasonable, but too little too late
19:41:48 <ais523> well, since and including Vista
19:42:02 <pikhq> Probably the only problem with it is that previously, Windows programs assumed that they were administrator.
19:42:27 <Sgeo> Yeah, older programs keep causing Windows to ask me to allow changes to the HD
19:42:30 <pikhq> But, well, can't really fault Microsoft for the result of that being annoyance when they move toward sanity.
19:43:00 <pikhq> Especially as that old model *makes some amount of sense* for single-user, non-networked computers.
19:43:27 <elliott> catseye: invent a language
19:43:28 <pikhq> No excuse keeping it past, oh, Windows 95, though.
19:43:31 <ais523> yep, it's the Internet that caught Microsoft out
19:43:32 <Sgeo> Or in a world without bugs, kind of
19:43:40 <elliott> .
19:43:40 <Sgeo> Well, hmm
19:43:51 <Sgeo> Not really, for less than trustworthy programs
19:44:09 <Sgeo> But then again, even in the newer model, someone could trust a less-than-trustworthy program
19:44:50 <pikhq> Sgeo: If the user is intentionally executing a malicious program, all security models pretty much go out the window.
19:45:03 <pikhq> It's only a question of how much damage can be done at that point.
19:45:37 <Sgeo> Well, if the model basically keeps programs sandboxed, and the user doesn't trust it enough to let it out of its sandbox..
19:45:53 <Sgeo> Then again, I suppose the question implies full trust
19:46:06 <pikhq> Yes, but the point is that the user can just be told that "This needs to be out of its sandbox" and a moron might follow through on that.
19:47:27 <Sgeo> A while ago, I imagined an OS where the user would be quizzed before being allowed to let stuff out of their sandboxes
19:48:57 <Gregor> pikhq: AKA Java
19:49:17 <Sgeo> Got a pop-up recently that tried to do some Java thing
19:49:31 <Sgeo> I didn't know what it was, so kept clicking Cancel to the authorize thingy
19:49:36 <Sgeo> Someone not computer savvy....
19:49:51 <pikhq> Gregor: Aye.
19:50:13 <pikhq> Sgeo: Is trained to click "Okay" to everything.
19:50:47 * Sgeo decides that the Ninite install of VLC sucks
19:51:06 <Sgeo> It apparently doesn't install the VLC web plugin thingy
19:51:11 <elliott> >>> True = False
19:51:12 <elliott> >>> True
19:51:12 <elliott> False
19:51:12 <elliott> >>> True is False
19:51:12 <elliott> True
19:51:13 <elliott> --Python
19:51:49 <Sgeo> Isn't that an older version?
19:51:55 <elliott> No?
19:52:03 <Sgeo> Hmm
19:52:11 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ python
19:52:11 <elliott> Python 2.6.6 (r266:84292, Sep 15 2010, 16:22:56)
19:52:11 <elliott> [GCC 4.4.5] on linux2
19:52:11 <elliott> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
19:52:11 <elliott> >>> True = False
19:52:12 <elliott> >>> True
19:52:13 <Sgeo> What did they make unchangable recently?
19:52:14 <elliott> False
19:52:16 <elliott> >>> True is False
19:52:17 <pikhq> let True == False = True in True == False
19:52:18 <elliott> True
19:53:16 * Sgeo wants XP Mode
19:53:49 <pikhq> Sgeo: Windows 7 ships with one.
19:53:54 <elliott> pikhq: only Ultimate.
19:53:57 <elliott> "I liken starting one’s computing career with Unix, say as an undergraduate, to being born in East Africa. It is intolerably hot, your body is covered with lice and flies, you are malnourished and you suffer from numerous curable diseases. But, as far as young East Africans can tell, this is simply the natural condition and they live within it. By the time they find out differently, it is too late. They already think that the writing of shell scripts
19:53:57 <elliott> is a natural act." -- Ken Pier, Xerox PARC
19:53:58 <pikhq> It's called "XP".
19:54:09 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:54:13 <pikhq> elliott: Ah, right. *That's* why my grandmother bought Ultimate...
19:54:18 <elliott> pikhq: x_x
19:54:22 <elliott> But XP Mode is almost useless.
19:54:59 <Sgeo> I'd imagine it would be just like the fun I had with WinXP in VMware some years ago
19:55:00 <pikhq> elliott: Hey, she didn't *consult* with me before going out to buy it.
19:55:02 <Gregor> !haskell let 1 + 1 = 3 in 1 + 1
19:55:04 <EgoBot> 3
19:55:25 <elliott> pikhq: "The best version of Windows 7 is called 'Ubuntu'."
19:55:42 <elliott> Gregor: Therefore Haskell sucks, right?
19:55:46 -!- Harpyon has joined.
19:55:46 <Gregor> elliott: No.
19:55:51 <Gregor> elliott: Therefore the Python comment is silly.
19:55:58 <elliott> Gregor: I was joking with my Haskell thing.
19:56:00 <elliott> But still.
19:56:00 <asie[sad]> !haskell let 2 + 2 = Gregor in 2 + 2
19:56:05 <asie[sad]> !haskell let 2 + 2 = Gregor in 2 + 2
19:56:06 <elliott> True and False should be *constants* ffs.
19:56:09 <elliott> And not overridable. At all.
19:56:09 <asie[sad]> D:
19:56:21 <elliott> At least if you're making a language like Python.
19:56:31 <Gregor> asie[sad]: Gregor is undefined.
19:57:53 <pikhq> ...
19:58:25 <pikhq> You need Ultimate to be able to have multiple locales installed on Windows at the same time‽
19:58:53 <zzo38> When the book is shipped to me, then I can reimplement TeX.
19:58:55 <pikhq> That's astoundingly shitty.
19:59:17 -!- wareya_ has joined.
19:59:37 <zzo38> And use this reimplementation as the one I put in Linux distribution. It should pass the TRIP test and also the TRIP'' test.
19:59:59 <pikhq> Without Ultimate, you have a system-wide locale instead of a per-user locale.
20:00:02 <pikhq> That's... Retarded.
20:00:21 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:01:45 <zzo38> pikhq: Is there some way that can tell it to change locale at login so that you can make fake per-user locale?
20:01:56 <pikhq> zzo38: No.
20:02:22 <pikhq> Also, you need to reboot to change the system locale.
20:03:06 <zzo38> I suppose you don't usually need a per-user locale, which might be why they didn't do it except Ultimate.
20:03:20 <zzo38> If you don't like that, use Linux or perhaps.
20:03:33 <pikhq> Where you can have per-app locales.
20:05:26 <zzo38> There is "applocale" program available for Windows, but I don't know if there is some versions it does not work with.
20:08:40 <zzo38> I don't use credit-card. And I don't want to use credit-card. I prefer to pay everything by cash. And if I run a business, I should put a service charge on any payment that is not cash.
20:09:57 <pikhq> Which means you wouldn't be able to run credit cards.
20:10:08 <pikhq> Would you do the same for debit cards or checks, though?\
20:10:20 <pikhq> (no charges for those)
20:10:49 <elliott> pikhq: I hate naming schemes for serials.
20:10:55 <elliott> (TV series, web series, etc.)
20:10:57 <elliott> Filenaming schemes.
20:10:57 <elliott> That is.
20:11:17 <zzo38> If I run it entirely by myself, of course I will not accept any payment other than cash, but I don't run a business all by myself, so the other people can help. However I would add service charges for everything that isn't cash. But more service charge for credit cards than for debit cards and checks.
20:11:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, as a curious related remark: in Sweden businesses are no longer allowed to add a charge to the price for debit and credit cards. Banks are however still allowed to charge businesses.
20:11:41 <elliott> "[season].[episode] Title", without leading 0s, works, but then what about extras for a series? What about extras that are chronologically related in some way?
20:12:03 <elliott> Perhaps "[season].S Title" for specials and "[season].[episode]S Title" for chronological specials.
20:12:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: Is it permitted to make a discount for cash payments, then? Or not?
20:12:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, wouldn't be legal to add such charges in Sweden any more.
20:12:27 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't know
20:12:38 <pikhq> elliott: I use [season]/[episode] - Title
20:12:48 <elliott> <zzo38> When the book is shipped to me, then I can reimplement TeX.
20:12:50 <elliott> oh jesus christ.
20:13:00 <Vorpal> zzo38, I would assume that it isn't, otherwise every business would be doing that by now.
20:13:12 <Vorpal> zzo38, to make up for the banks still charging them
20:13:17 <pikhq> elliott: With leading 0s, but only because everything insists on UTF-8betical sort.
20:13:39 <elliott> pikhq: Why season directories?
20:13:58 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, what about extra material? Just in the season directory?
20:14:02 <elliott> What about chronological extra material?
20:14:04 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah.
20:14:16 <elliott> What about chronological extra material?
20:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you trying to put this in an hierarchical tree! You need to free yourself from the flawed file system abstraction here.
20:14:42 <pikhq> If it's chronologically related to a specific episode, I'll probably do something like [episode].extra - Title
20:14:59 <Vorpal> (not ironic, well, mostly not)
20:15:05 <pikhq> It's all just a hack to get around pitiful, pitiful lacking of metadata, of course.
20:15:17 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah maybe i'll just put it all in one big file and seek around it.
20:15:44 * Sgeo removes Adobe Reader 9.3 with prejudice
20:16:29 <Vorpal> elliott, the best way would be to have some sort of linked list to indicate chronological order, and some ordered set of seasons, each containing an ordered set of episodes.
20:16:39 <Vorpal> elliott, that should handle extra material
20:16:50 <elliott> Vorpal: A linked list? Seriously?
20:16:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well, depends on how many
20:17:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: That fails horribly with complex chronological ordering.
20:17:11 <Vorpal> elliott, an ordered set would be better for large amounts of data
20:17:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, um, complex in what way?
20:17:19 <pikhq> Time travel.
20:17:20 <elliott> pikhq: I HAVE A SOLUTION *deletes extra material*
20:17:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh
20:17:32 <elliott> pikhq: he meant release chronological :P
20:17:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, but there can be time travel within an episode
20:17:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I thought that is what you meant
20:17:44 <pikhq> Where chronological order is an ordered graph. :)
20:17:52 <pikhq> elliott: :P
20:18:03 <pikhq> Erm.
20:18:16 <pikhq> A *directed* graph.
20:18:22 <elliott> pikhq: Written any code lately? DHT IT
20:18:23 <zzo38> I should reimplement TeX because I don't like the way the current TeX distributions work; they work by requiring the TeX program in Pascal WEB, and then it also needs a lot of change files, and conversion programs and a lot of other things. So now it can be rewritten using Enhanced CWEB and omitting a lot of unnecessary things.
20:18:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, if there is time travel within an episode. Then one episode could show up at multiple places in the timeline. and that is kind of tricky to represent. Especially if you need to deal with "original timeline" vs. "changed timeline due to timetravel"
20:19:08 <elliott> zzo38: I am banging my head against the wall.
20:19:10 <elliott> Also crying.
20:19:17 * pikhq laughs again at Microsoft...
20:19:22 <pikhq> Starter Edition of Windows.
20:19:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, I mean: time travel could be used to retcon an entire previous episode!
20:19:24 <pikhq> Teehee.
20:19:48 <pikhq> "Make it worse than the real thing in regions where piracy of the real thing is the norm!"
20:21:13 <elliott> I am sad.
20:21:17 <elliott> WHY MUST LANGUAGES SUCK
20:21:31 <zzo38> elliott: Why did you bang your head and crying?
20:21:39 <zzo38> Are you going to break your head now?
20:21:52 * pikhq should obtain lunch
20:21:53 <elliott> zzo38: Because you're reimplementing TeX. And yes.
20:21:55 <elliott> It is breaking.
20:23:07 <zzo38> Do you not like reimplementing TeX? But surely the current way is really messy, isn't it?
20:24:02 <elliott> zzo38: Well yes. But still. Is there anything you won't reimplement in your distro?
20:24:55 <zzo38> Probably I don't reimplement everything, but I might modify many things.
20:37:09 <elliott> WHOA
20:37:13 <elliott> xrandr -o inverted
20:37:15 <elliott> that's sure something
20:37:16 <elliott> help
20:40:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:46:44 <pikhq> elliott: xrandr -o normal
20:46:48 <elliott> pikhq: yeah :P
20:54:16 * pikhq wonders if there's a way to convince an ATI card to do pillarboxed or letterboxed output for resolutions not at a 16:10 aspect ratio
20:54:45 <pikhq> (my monitor, for no apparent reason, just scales it all to 16x10)
20:55:22 <elliott> Yeah, that sucks.
21:01:24 <elliott> ais523: what does 0 on the end of a debian library package mean?
21:01:28 <elliott> e.g. libfoo0, libfoo0-dev
21:01:44 <pikhq> elliott: so version.
21:01:52 <elliott> ah.
21:02:05 <elliott> how come the libfoo-dev packages sometimes have the number after foo and sometimes don't?
21:05:18 <Gregor> They have the number when currently or at some point in the past it has been possible to have both versions installed and usable concurrently.
21:05:34 <Gregor> s/both/two or more/
21:05:46 <Gregor> It's ... kinda silly.
21:07:23 <Slereah> You know
21:07:27 <Slereah> The weirdest thing is
21:07:35 <Slereah> I didn't even know Mandlebrot was still alive
21:10:30 <olsner> me neither
21:10:42 <oerjan> what is weird about that? there are obviously many people that were famous but haven't done anything particularly newsworthy in the last decade or so
21:10:56 <elliott> oerjan: because mandelbrot seems like one of those guys who's dead
21:11:14 <oerjan> ...but his famous book was only in the 80s
21:11:16 <oerjan> afair
21:11:22 <elliott> oerjan: and IRC is full of young brats.
21:11:47 <oerjan> heh
21:12:12 <olsner> his discoveries are all surprisingly recent too, I always thought the mandelbrot set and all that stuff was discovered in the 30s or something by a mandelbrot at least 50 years older than he actually was
21:13:20 <catseye> I was vaguely under that impression too.
21:14:09 <oerjan> ...you do realise you need a graphical computer to do popular science with fractals?
21:14:15 <catseye> But French mathematicians always sound older than they are. Is Bezier still alive?
21:14:27 <Gregor> catseye: He died on Thursday.
21:14:31 <Gregor> Erm
21:14:36 <Gregor> I thought you wrote "Benoit" for some reason.
21:14:38 <Gregor> IGNORE ME.
21:14:47 <catseye> Gregor: Yeah hi Gregor, thank you.
21:15:22 <Gregor> !haskell let catseye = 0 in catseye
21:15:35 <oerjan> Pierre Étienne Bézier (September 1, 1910 . November 25, 1999)
21:15:56 <EgoBot> 0
21:15:56 <oerjan> (my unicode is currently even brokener than usual, some server misconfiguration)
21:16:10 <olsner> haha, it's true, french mathematicians always sound older than they are :)
21:16:55 <oerjan> for example, is Nicolas Bourbaki still alive or not...
21:16:57 <elliott> <olsner> his discoveries are all surprisingly recent too, I always thought the mandelbrot set and all that stuff was discovered in the 30s or something by a mandelbrot at least 50 years older than he actually was
21:16:58 * oerjan runs away
21:16:58 <elliott> that's what i felt, yeah
21:17:10 <elliott> i didn't realise fractals were so new and controversial at the time
21:17:16 <elliott> because they're so... obviously awesome
21:17:28 <olsner> oerjan: never alive due to not being an actual person :P
21:17:32 <catseye> I think (at least) I am confusing his work to a degree with Julia's.
21:17:37 <elliott> olsner: THAT'S THE JOKE
21:17:43 <oerjan> olsner: DON'T SPOIL THE JOKE
21:17:58 <elliott> http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090819180841/uncyclopedia/images/1/13/Thats_the_joke.jpg
21:18:06 <elliott> <oerjan> ...you do realise you need a graphical computer to do popular science with fractals?
21:18:10 <elliott> no reason you couldn't have traced an outline :D
21:18:28 <pikhq> Gaaah. Only two of the modes on my X11 configuration are at the native aspect ratio
21:18:31 <elliott> note that super-quick judgements like these tend not to be thought about...
21:18:40 <catseye> Julia published his first work on the Julia set in 1918, it looks like. So, yeah.
21:18:42 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, you know how you advocated 16:9 screens?
21:18:49 <elliott> pikhq: Fucking sucks at 13".
21:18:58 <elliott> I would like more height please.
21:19:07 <pikhq> elliott: I've not really advocated 16:9 screens for much more than video.
21:19:24 <pikhq> elliott: Ideally, I'd have like a 9:16 screen for most purposes that could be rotated to 16:9 for video.
21:19:37 <elliott> pikhq: Vertical screens tend to suck.
21:19:43 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and vertical 9:16 screens are abhorrent.
21:19:54 <elliott> Strains your neck to look from top to bottom, and it's so thin you feel like your screen's anorexic.
21:20:27 <Gregor> I have dual 16:10, horizontal.
21:20:33 <Gregor> 'cuz I'm awesome like that.
21:20:35 <elliott> I have your mom, horizontal.
21:20:36 <pikhq> Actually. Y'know what? 4:3 is a nice aspect ratio for computer monitors.
21:20:47 <elliott> 'cuz I'm awesome like that.
21:21:03 <Gregor> elliott: Whatever floats yer boat, man. *gak*
21:21:11 <elliott> Gregor just died.
21:21:15 <elliott> *gak*
21:21:17 <elliott> I just died!
21:21:20 <elliott> *kag*
21:21:24 <Gregor> I just gakked.
21:21:37 <catseye> My god. For his entire professional career, Julia had no nose. It was blown off in the war.
21:21:54 <oerjan> also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Levi-Montalcini is clearly relevant to this discussion.
21:22:17 <elliott> catseye: He originally designed the Julia set to be experienced olfactorily.
21:22:27 <elliott> catseye: Took him a while to realise that wouldn't work.
21:23:04 <oerjan> it resembles those internal nose pictures, doesn't it
21:23:46 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Gustav_Herglotz,_Gaston_Julia.jpeg
21:23:46 <olsner> "Gaston Julia (right), with Gustav Herglotz, comparing dogs"
21:23:49 <elliott> as we can see, he also didn't have eyes
21:24:11 <elliott> "Mandelbrot set, discovered by Pierre Fatou and Julia"
21:24:16 <elliott> what's that law again?
21:24:25 <elliott> that things are named after the second people to do them
21:24:28 <elliott> and never the first
21:24:55 <catseye> those are cute dogs
21:25:10 <oerjan> i saw that the other day
21:25:23 <elliott> catseye: That's what a FURRY would say.
21:25:48 <elliott> catseye: One day, a budding young Amiga programmer, ERIC SCHWARTZ, had that thought.
21:25:51 <elliott> NOW WHAT CATSEYE?
21:25:52 <elliott> NOW WHAT
21:26:10 <catseye> elliott: yeah so anyway
21:26:31 <elliott> [catseye hangs himself quietly]
21:26:35 <catseye> I have a working external HDD now, and I am happily copying everything to it.
21:26:47 <elliott> catseye: Do not lose that HD :P
21:26:55 <catseye> It's small enough...
21:27:39 <catseye> I only hope it's more reliable than that SimpleTech poc
21:27:59 <elliott> catseye: You should totally install NetBSD.
21:28:09 <elliott> [cogs whirr in catseye's mind and a chain reaction begins...]
21:28:14 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigler%27s_law_of_eponymy
21:28:54 -!- asie[sad] has quit.
21:29:20 <oerjan> why was asie sad, anyhow
21:29:52 <catseye> oerjan: because mandelbrot died, i think
21:30:01 <elliott> yeah
21:30:05 <elliott> catseye: TOTALLY INSTALL NETBSD
21:30:19 <Sgeo> Should I TrueCrypt my HD?
21:30:23 <catseye> elliott: finish Kitten, and I'll install that!
21:30:35 <elliott> catseye: But install NetBSD first, since that's totally like at least 33% of Kitten.
21:30:48 <oerjan> ah.
21:31:22 <catseye> elliott: The #1 obstacle is going to be install media, you see -- no CD/DVD-R.
21:31:31 <elliott> catseye: Got a USB stick?
21:31:42 <catseye> Actually I might not have tried CD-R, but I know DVD-R just doesn't happening.
21:31:45 <elliott> catseye: Got a USB stick?
21:32:01 <catseye> elliott: Yes, I picked up another one when I got my ext hdd.
21:32:13 <catseye> Can you install *NetBSD* from one of those.
21:32:15 <elliott> catseye: Yes.
21:32:17 <elliott> catseye: Yes you can.
21:32:24 <catseye> Then I might.
21:32:30 <elliott> catseye: Maybe not without the help of some third-party software, but I Can Help With That.
21:32:45 <elliott> http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/ (available for Windows and Linux) + NetBSD 5.0.2 ISO = tada.
21:33:01 <elliott> (It has the ability to download NetBSD among others and put it on the USB stick automatically but I don't trust that it gets the right ISO.)
21:33:26 <catseye> OK, 2 hours for copy session #1 to finish.
21:33:27 <elliott> catseye: How old is the computer? Hopefully it can boot USB disks.
21:33:50 <catseye> Err it probably can, it's not THAT old.
21:34:03 <catseye> Oh, so this is what Vorpal was talking about.
21:34:10 <elliott> catseye: Was he talking about unetbootin too?
21:34:20 <elliott> Except more incoherently, I guess.
21:34:30 <catseye> Yes. I thought it was some kind of PXE thing. I mean, its got "net" in it.
21:34:36 <elliott> catseye: Yeah it's a stupid name.
21:34:41 <Gregor> It is a very bad name.
21:35:02 <catseye> So would this work with *any* ISO image?
21:35:07 <catseye> I mean, of suitable size
21:35:08 <elliott> catseye: Maybe not Windows.
21:35:09 <Gregor> Has to use isolinux
21:35:12 <elliott> catseye: It basically just installs SYSLINUX instead of ISOLINUX and I don't know how that works for NetBSD but whatever it has the option to download NetBSD so presumably it works.
21:35:14 <elliott> Gregor: clearly not
21:35:19 <elliott> Gregor: http://sourceforge.net/dbimage.php?id=167328
21:35:23 <elliott> "NetBSD" is one of the options there
21:35:25 <Gregor> NetBSD almost assuredly uses isolinux.
21:35:29 <elliott> as is FreeBSD
21:35:30 <elliott> Gregor: nope
21:35:32 <elliott> custom BSD loader
21:35:36 <elliott> well "custom"
21:35:40 <elliott> afaik it's just the bsd loader
21:35:43 <Gregor> Even on ISO? That's ... surprising.
21:35:43 <elliott> i may be wrong
21:35:48 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, it's BSD.
21:35:59 <elliott> They don't use anyone else's shit, especially if it has "linux" in the name.
21:36:00 <Gregor> elliott: EVERYTHING uses isolinux.
21:36:05 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, fine.
21:36:06 <elliott> Well, whatever.
21:36:08 <elliott> catseye: It'll work fine.
21:36:14 <elliott> Gregor: Arch uses GRUB btw (but who gives a shit)
21:36:27 <catseye> grbtgrbtgrbthmok
21:36:32 <elliott> catseye: wat
21:37:42 <catseye> I don't know what isolinux is but I don't see why this would depend on it
21:37:49 <elliott> catseye: Don't worry about it
21:38:00 <elliott> catseye: It'll either work or not -- if not, there's like 10 other ways to get it onto a USB stick.
21:38:04 <catseye> The main consideration seems to be if the media's boot sequence understands that it can be run from a USB drive
21:38:08 <elliott> catseye: But it supports downloading NetBSD automatically.
21:38:09 <elliott> So it's fine.
21:38:14 <elliott> Because that means it supports it.
21:38:19 <elliott> So you can download the iso and it will work fine.
21:38:26 <catseye> IT WILL WORK FINE
21:38:31 * catseye zombie-arms
21:40:17 <catseye> What the fuck are all these distros, anyway?
21:42:02 <elliott> catseye: Crap, basically.
21:42:06 <elliott> catseye: Don't use that list.
21:42:09 <elliott> catseye: Just use the iso part.
21:42:12 <catseye> There simply isn't enough variation in the space of Linux install permutations to support as many distros as there are. Unless half of them are just "skins".
21:42:25 <elliott> Half of them are.
21:42:28 <catseye> Going to be more than 2 hours to copy, it looks like.
21:42:31 <elliott> Half of them are forks that change approximately nothing.
21:42:33 <catseye> OK, well.
21:42:49 <elliott> And the other half... :P
21:42:50 <elliott> catseye: Why are you trying to recover Windows again?
21:43:37 <catseye> elliott: No *good* reason.
21:45:01 <elliott> catseye: NETBSD PURITY
21:45:35 * catseye drinks only rainwater
21:47:13 <Gregor> elliott: I stand corrected, NetBSD is too lame to use ISOLINUX, instead it uses a friggin' boot floppy in El Torito floppy emulation mode!
21:47:23 <elliott> Gregor: Amazing.
21:47:28 <elliott> Gregor: But unetbootin supports it.
21:47:30 <elliott> So presumably it works.
21:47:48 <Gregor> Well, unetbootin' really has LESS work to do with a boot floppy than with ISOLINUX *shrugs*
21:47:56 <elliott> Indeed :P
21:47:59 <elliott> Boot floppy. Amazing.
21:48:03 <catseye> Gregor: Yes. All BSDs do it that way iirc.
21:48:06 * Gregor is apparently incapable of typing "unetbootin" without an apostrphe at the end.
21:48:20 <catseye> a 2.88M disk image.
21:48:23 <elliott> Gregor: So is this a CD-sized boot "floppy" or a floppy-sized bootloader that loads the full CD?
21:48:32 <pikhq> elliott: Bootloader.
21:48:36 <catseye> elliott: It's 2.88M.
21:48:56 <elliott> LAME
21:49:00 <pikhq> Amusingly, El Torito can also do hard drive emulation.
21:49:03 <elliott> "And here's my 600 meg floppy..."
21:49:06 <Gregor> El Torito doesn't support arbitrary floppy sizes for emulation. It supports HDD emulation, but that's effectively implemented nowhere.
21:50:20 <pikhq> No emulation is the most reliable one on modern hardware, funnily enough.
21:51:13 <Gregor> Hence why everything uses ISOLINUX *shrugs*
21:51:19 <catseye> elliott: So I take it Kitten will run the NetBSD kernel but will not go anywhere near the BSD boot model.
21:51:30 <elliott> catseye: I hadn't even thought about the bootloader.
21:51:37 <elliott> catseye: Is the hard-drive bootloader saner?
21:51:49 <pikhq> Gregor: You can then have ISOLINUX load a floppy disk emulation module.
21:51:49 <pikhq> :D
21:51:50 <catseye> elliott: mmmarginally
21:51:57 <elliott> catseye: i'll probably just do that :P
21:52:00 <olsner> goddammit, netbsd still use CVS :(
21:52:04 <Gregor> pikhq: Indeed ...
21:52:05 <pikhq> Mmmm, MEMDISK.
21:52:07 <elliott> catseye: So are you installing NetBSD or not
21:52:14 <elliott> catseye: If so, you are awesome and... and I might as well
21:52:23 <catseye> THe one on FreeBSD resides *entirely* in the boot sector, thus is tiny and crude. Nothing lie that LiLo monstrosity
21:52:25 <catseye> *like
21:52:32 <catseye> I don't remember about NetBSD's
21:52:40 <pikhq> ... MEMDISK can emulate a floppy, hard drive, *or* CD.
21:52:46 <elliott> lilo monstrosity :D
21:52:49 <catseye> elliott: Have not decided
21:52:50 <Gregor> catseye: Nobody's used LILO in like a decade :P
21:52:50 <elliott> 512 bootlaoder, impressive
21:53:02 <elliott> catseye: It means you can ANSWER COPIOUS QUESTIONS I HAVE FOR KITTEN
21:53:04 <elliott> Gregor: yes they have
21:53:11 <Gregor> elliott: I'M AN OPTIMIST DAMN IT
21:53:13 <pikhq> You could use ISOLINUX to boot MEMDISK to boot an ISO.
21:53:17 <elliott> Gregor: lilo is less shit than grub.
21:53:21 <pikhq> From RAM!
21:53:22 <elliott> the only complaint about lilo is...
21:53:28 <elliott> "you have to run it after upgrading your kernel!"
21:53:29 <elliott> OH NO
21:53:35 <elliott> UNTHINKABLE
21:53:44 <pikhq> Gregor: LILO's still the default on Slackware.
21:53:51 <pikhq> Gregor: And an option on Debian-alikes.
21:54:01 <pikhq> ... And Gentoo, for that matter.
21:54:07 <pikhq> Actually, every modern distro still has it.
21:54:09 <Gregor> pikhq: Nobody's used Slackware in MORE than a decade :P
21:54:15 <Gregor> And of course every distro still HAS it.
21:54:20 <Gregor> It's just not the DEFAULT.
21:54:22 <elliott> Gregor just hates anything outside of the modern Debian canon.
21:54:23 <catseye> The nice thing about boot0cfg is that you can use it completely independent of the OSes you have installed. I've used it to dual-boot Windows and Linux...
21:54:28 <Gregor> elliott: Pretty much.
21:54:39 <catseye> The downside is that almost all OSes show up as '????'
21:54:51 <elliott> ...which is because he's either unimaginative, has terrible taste, or is just a contrarian to contrarians.
21:55:12 <Gregor> Debian can do no wrong.
21:55:17 <Gregor> As I have defined "right" as "Debian"
21:55:38 <catseye> Debian is for plebians
21:55:41 <elliott> If "right" is Debian, I want to be a terrorist and a rapist.
21:56:03 <catseye> And booleans are for hooligans
21:56:11 <pikhq> Ahahahah. You could totally make a Win95 live CD.
21:56:13 <pikhq> ...
21:56:17 <elliott> pikhq: xDDDD
21:56:21 <elliott> pikhq: DON'T
21:56:23 <Gregor> catseye: "Debian" doesn't rhyme with "plebian" ...
21:56:26 <pikhq> elliott: It's simple.
21:56:38 <elliott> Gregor: Sure it does.
21:56:47 <pikhq> elliott: You make a HD image, and then make an ISO that boots that via MEMDISK.
21:56:48 <Gregor> Debian is named after one Deb and one Ian.
21:56:51 <elliott> Indeed.
21:56:58 <Gregor> It is pronounced like the name "Deb" concatenated with the name "Ian"
21:57:04 <elliott> I define the pronunciation of Debian to be ...
21:57:10 <pikhq> (note: not likely to work on any hardware with enough RAM to actually stick that into RAM)
21:58:26 <catseye> Gregor: Just channel Ogden Nash, it'll be fine.
22:00:03 <Sgeo> pikhq, why not?
22:00:33 <Gregor> I failed to make an AT&T SysV boot CD a while ago :P
22:01:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: It would need to load the entire HD image into RAM.
22:02:10 <pikhq> Sgeo: And Win95 doesn't like more than like 512M of RAM.
22:02:14 <Sgeo> Oh
22:02:25 <elliott> pikhq: you can fix that easily
22:02:31 <elliott> there's a patch iirc
22:02:47 <elliott> also 95 installs are less than 512 megs i think...
22:02:50 <Sgeo> Note to everyone: Stop making things that dislike more than a certain amount of resources
22:02:55 <Gregor> pikhq: That probably wouldn't work since MEMDISK only exposes the disk through BIOS, not IDE, and Win95 (presumably ... oh god please tell me it does :P) would use the IDE bus directly.
22:03:20 <pikhq> Gregor: It *tries* to use the IDE bus directly.
22:03:27 <Gregor> pikhq: However, it's much simpler than that. Just make a tiny DOS boot partition that loads a CD driver, then have Win95 actually installed on the CD.
22:03:27 <pikhq> Gregor: If it *can't*, then it uses DOS.
22:03:33 <Gregor> ORLY? That's ... silly.
22:03:36 <Gregor> But awesome? Maybe?
22:03:57 <catseye> for certain values of awesome
22:04:16 <pikhq> Also, if there is any hook into the DOS filesystem routines, then it jumps into DOS to run those hooks.
22:05:14 <pikhq> And it has its own hooks into the DOS filesystem routines so that any DOS program will end up actually calling the Win95 filesystem routines.
22:05:35 <Gregor> Also, *brain explodes*
22:05:47 <pikhq> And *also* so that DOS filesystem hooks will jump back *into* Win95.
22:06:16 <Gregor> Running AT&T SysV off a boot CD would be more entertaining.
22:06:53 <pikhq> In essence, Win95 tried as hard as it could to pretend to be DOS.
22:11:08 <catseye> elliott: Yes, probably NetBSD.
22:11:13 <catseye> elliott: Be happy.
22:11:25 <catseye> Windows first, though.
22:12:14 <catseye> -->
22:14:37 <Sgeo> This thingy for protecting the hard drive. The software just reports and optionally toggles, right?
22:14:41 <Sgeo> That makes much more sense
22:19:58 <Vorpal> so I can only conclude that ipsec tunneling is very very very screwy
22:20:09 <Vorpal> 1) it doesn't use a pseudo interface like other tunnel types
22:20:14 <oerjan> Vorpal: ipso facto
22:20:45 <Vorpal> 2) the routes look weird. Like <inner ip> via <normal standard gateway>.
22:21:04 <Vorpal> 3) wireshark at the endpoints captures packages twice, first encrypted then decrypted
22:21:10 * Sgeo is looking at notebook cases
22:21:13 <Sgeo> Any guidance?
22:21:13 <Vorpal> (note, this does not happen for transport mode)
22:21:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, what?
22:21:25 <Sgeo> http://www.amazon.com/rooCASE-Neoprene-Satellite-T115-S1100-11-6-Inch/dp/B0040OVEIE/ref=sr_1_8?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1287263804&sr=1-8
22:21:39 <Sgeo> Looks good, but I want a case I feel comfortable putting in my backpack
22:21:50 <Sgeo> And my backpack tends to get mushed around a lot
22:22:12 <Sgeo> Maybe it's not so bad to carry a case around
22:23:01 * oerjan adjusts Vorpal's punnimeter again.
22:23:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't see what you are trying to pun on
22:24:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, ipsec → ipso? No, that is too bad, can't be that
22:24:11 * oerjan thinks something is rattling inside
22:24:31 * oerjan sulks in the corner. You're mean!
22:24:47 <Vorpal> huh? it was that?
22:24:51 <Vorpal> nothing personal then
22:25:46 * oerjan bawls at ear-damaging volume, then remembers sound doesn't transfer on irc
22:28:31 <Sgeo> Dear Toshiba website: ACKNOWLEDGE MY LAPTOP'S EXISTENCE
22:33:43 <Gregor> Sgeo: Please enable Toshiba Genuine Advantage, then call this number.
22:36:02 <Sgeo> What, exactly, were Vista's problems?
22:37:56 <Gregor> It tasted like burning goats.
22:40:07 <Vorpal> Sgeo, huge, slow, annoying?
22:40:12 <Vorpal> and more
22:41:59 <Sgeo> Hmm
22:42:19 <Sgeo> Windows 7's security model seems to force you to trust anything that you want to install
22:42:29 <Sgeo> Unless it's just that I keep installing old programs
22:45:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo, same for xp or vista really
22:46:55 <Sgeo> It still sucks
22:47:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, yeah, go for linux
22:47:21 <Sgeo> There should be separate "Install" "Regular access" and "Full access" levels
22:47:44 <Sgeo> Instaling on Linux is always "full access" or "user-level"
22:47:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo, 90% (a guesstimate) of the software doesn't need more than normal user access really
22:48:32 <Vorpal> 5% (again guesstimate) of the remaining just needs one or two small things, such as listening to a privileged port.
22:48:34 <Sgeo> But surely it's best to place the executables and other such files ouut of reach of normal access
22:48:39 <Vorpal> the remaining 5% really needs root
22:49:07 <Vorpal> Sgeo, on *nix I normally install non-package-manager stuff into ~/local
22:49:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, the only case I installed something outside of package manager that needed root was with kismet. Since package manager version was outdated, installed into /opt/kismet
22:50:04 <Vorpal> and that needs privileged access for some parts to run
22:50:10 <Vorpal> oh wait, aircrack-ng too
22:50:16 <Vorpal> but that is it
22:50:35 <Sgeo> But, suppose there's an exploit in the browser. It can tamper with any software installed to ~/local
22:52:35 <Gregor> Suppose there's an exploit in the kernel. Now anything can tamper with any software installed to /usr.
22:52:45 <Gregor> Suppose there's an exploit in the CPU. Now anything can make your bus explode.
22:53:06 <Gregor> Suppose there's an exploit in the very laws of physics. Suppose that supposing exploits exist here and there isn't all that helpful.
22:53:58 <Sgeo> But browser exploits are presumably common. At least on Windows they are, even outside of IE. Why would Linux browsers be different in that respect?
22:55:08 <oerjan> Gregor: http://www.exitmundi.nl/vacuum.htm
22:55:46 <oerjan> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schild%27s_Ladder
22:56:06 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Suppose there's an exploit in the CPU. Now anything can make your bus explode. <-- only if the bus trusts the CPU!
22:56:21 <Vorpal> and it also needs some sort of explosive device built in
22:56:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why would I browse with same user account?
22:56:55 <zzo38> How is that ever going to happen?
22:56:55 <Vorpal> that is just silly
22:57:38 <Sgeo> Vorpal, oh, so ~/local with installed stuff is different from regular usage account?
22:57:49 <Sgeo> Now: To get that model of security into everyone's hands
22:58:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: There's ways of getting executable-specific permissions (y'know, where each *program* is limited in what it can do based on what the program is, rather than who's running it).
22:58:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: The *problem* is that it's often a royal pain to deal with.
22:59:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, err what?
22:59:27 <Vorpal> Sgeo, no, browser runs under a non-regular account
22:59:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Still, some distros are actually shipping using that.
22:59:33 <Sgeo> Ah
22:59:42 <Sgeo> (@ Vorpal)
22:59:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, you mean ipsec, rsbac, and such
22:59:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, apparmor too
23:00:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: SELinux and friends.
23:00:21 <Vorpal> of course, the ubuntu profiles for apparmor for user applications are generally useless
23:00:28 <Vorpal> since they more or less allow $HOME
23:00:48 <Vorpal> and writing a profile for firefox would be extremely hard
23:00:52 <pikhq> I know that they do that to make it easier to deal with, but doesn't that kinda defeat the point?
23:01:00 <Sgeo> Hmm
23:01:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed
23:01:48 <Vorpal> apparmor_status claims there are profiles for tcpdump, cupsd, ntpd, various network-manager things and so on. evince is the only "user app" that has a profile
23:02:05 <Vorpal> and well, writing profiles for daemons is way way simpler
23:02:05 <Sgeo> Nothing that requires deep analysis of programs, I thin... well, maybe. Would it be ok if profiles were written by the developers of the programs, or is that a fundamentally stupid and idiotic idea? I'm thinking the latter for not completely trusted programs, but my understanding of AppArmor might not be complete
23:02:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, well depends on if you trust them
23:02:37 <Vorpal> if you are worried about bugs
23:02:41 <Vorpal> then yes probably
23:02:48 <Sgeo> Hmm
23:03:02 <Sgeo> I think the idea I want is to have to trust as little as possible
23:03:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, then you need to write them yourself, have fun
23:03:17 <Sgeo> How much access could Joe Schmoe random userland app possibly want?
23:03:21 <Vorpal> oh and write your own browser
23:03:26 * Sgeo ignores AppArmor
23:03:46 <Sgeo> Just trying to think of a nice usable security model
23:03:52 <Sgeo> I think I hate this keyboard.
23:03:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo, consider firefox: saving download needs access. Same does file upload
23:03:59 <Vorpal> both are things you sometimes want
23:04:05 <Sgeo> Hmm, true
23:04:36 <Sgeo> Isn't there work on a user-friendly capabilities system?
23:04:48 <pikhq> Security is really, really, really annoying with a traditional, hierarchical filesystem.
23:04:59 <Vorpal> Sgeo, or what about checking a .html file locally, if you are testing a website, or just browsing local documentation
23:05:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, actually iirc plash has some sort of override-file-open-gtk-widget-with-trusted-one
23:05:42 <Vorpal> to allow selective access
23:05:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: I'm not sure you can call that a traditional, hierarchical filesystem.
23:05:45 <pikhq> :)
23:05:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, well it is accessing one
23:06:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, but true, it isn't one in itself
23:06:10 <pikhq> It just... Displays as one.
23:06:34 <catseye> I totally need to download and try the unetin thing before I try recovering Windows, in case that wipes out more than it should.
23:06:52 <zzo38> I don't need AppArmor and SELINUX and that stuff; when I make something in Linux for program capability security, instead I can add a single system call for that purpose: set_overcall(int system_call_number,void*(*new_function)(void*args,int flag))
23:07:01 <Vorpal> catseye, unetin? is that different from unetboot?
23:07:06 <Sgeo> unetbootin
23:07:11 <Vorpal> catseye, also: "recovering"? what happened?
23:07:21 <pikhq> zzo38: ... So, you're wanting something that can trace system calls?
23:07:34 <Vorpal> zzo38, you mean.... ptrace?
23:07:41 <pikhq> Yeah, we call that ptrace.
23:08:06 <Vorpal> zzo38, it exists, and is what debuggers use
23:08:10 <zzo38> pikhq: Something like that. set_overcall would be able to override itself as well, and you would need to do so if you want to have actual security.
23:08:26 <zzo38> As well as stealth so that application programs cannot tell they are overridden.
23:08:31 <Sgeo> Is there a useful subset of turing-completeness that would allow solving the halting problem, while still being powerful enough for most uses?
23:08:36 <Vorpal> well, you could easily do that in ptrace, just catch any ptrace related syscalls
23:08:40 <Vorpal> and do something else instead
23:08:56 <pikhq> Yeah, it's perfectly feasible.
23:09:07 <catseye> Vorpal: no, i meant unetbootin.
23:09:08 <zzo38> Vorpal: O, is that what ptrace does? OK, I suppose perhaps that can work
23:09:18 <Vorpal> catseye, ah
23:09:34 <zzo38> But I will need to learn how (hopefully I will learn how)
23:09:42 <Vorpal> zzo38, ptrace does a lot of things. It is able to set breakpoints and so on after all for debuggers
23:09:48 <Vorpal> and prod registers and what not
23:09:57 <catseye> Sgeo: Yes, it's called "primitive recursive functions"
23:10:02 <pikhq> Plash *intends* to eventually use ptrace for their sandboxing.
23:10:08 -!- Kater has joined.
23:10:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed
23:10:43 <pikhq> Oh, yeah.
23:10:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm?
23:10:55 <pikhq> ptrace is/was used to implement User Mode Linux.
23:10:57 -!- Kater has left (?).
23:11:01 <pikhq> To trap all system calls.
23:11:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, what, really!?
23:11:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: How else would it?
23:11:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, didn't it run a kernel in user space?
23:11:34 <pikhq> Yes.
23:11:42 <pikhq> And ran normal executables on that.
23:11:46 <Vorpal> hrrm
23:11:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, how does virtualbox and such do it
23:12:10 <pikhq> It emulates a computer.
23:12:18 <catseye> I am SHOCKED
23:12:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, actually since syscalls are done by jumping to a specific address in the program (the vdso) it would be easy to just change that one to do something else
23:12:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, not very... reliable though
23:12:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: Or via int 0x80. Or via a CPU instruction.
23:13:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, iirc that is what the actual vsdo does
23:13:07 <Vorpal> but yeah
23:13:12 <Vorpal> a bit tricky
23:13:19 <pikhq> Yeah, but it's also supported to go into the kernel directly.
23:13:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed
23:13:25 <pikhq> And this was the norm before 2.6.
23:13:30 <Vorpal> so you need ptrace
23:13:34 <pikhq> Yup.
23:13:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:13:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, what the hell does ps aux look like with uml running?
23:14:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, will there be some weird init process at a non-standard number?
23:14:16 <pikhq> Normal in the UML.
23:14:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, I meant on host
23:14:27 <pikhq> Outside, there's a single vmlinux process. :)
23:14:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, so, it doesn't show the interior ones?
23:14:46 <pikhq> No.
23:14:49 <Sgeo> How often does anyone ever want to upload system files?
23:14:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, also how does uml detect a syscall from the uml kernel to the real kernel
23:14:52 <pikhq> It does its own scheduling!
23:15:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, um, it happened that I attached /var/log/dmesg to bug reports
23:15:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well, it's running in its kernel space, so it'll just *not* trap the syscall.
23:15:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, err... what
23:16:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh it is ptracing itself?
23:16:05 <pikhq> Yes.
23:16:11 <pikhq> It runs as a single process.
23:16:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, I thought it would be two processes for that at least
23:16:23 <pikhq> Nope.
23:16:31 <Vorpal> crazy indeed
23:16:46 <pikhq> It can't do memory protection, though.
23:17:00 <pikhq> I *think* in 2.6 they added a system call to allow them to manage that.
23:17:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, so any process can write to the memory of any other process inside the uml?
23:17:08 <pikhq> Yuh.
23:17:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, *urgh*
23:17:31 <pikhq> Well, what else can they do?
23:18:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, that means a user space program could just over write the ptrace handler and be out and free
23:18:06 <pikhq> It's running a *completely* unmodified userland in user space.
23:18:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, it could single step the code :P
23:19:15 <Sgeo> Grrrr at older game that wants access to HD in normal use
23:20:12 <Vorpal> "As of Linux 2.6.0 it is integrated into the main kernel source tree. A method of running a separate kernel address space (skas) that does not require host kernel patching has been implemented; This improves performance and security over the old Traced Thread approach, in which processes running in the UML share the same address space from the host's point of view, which leads the memory inside the UML to not be protected by the Memory manageme
23:20:13 <Vorpal> nt unit. Unlike the current UML using skas, buggy or malicious software inside a UML running on a non-skas host could be able to read the memory space of other UML processes or even the UML kernel memory."
23:20:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, from wikipedia
23:20:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, now I wonder what the magic syscall is
23:28:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, ever used colinux?
23:28:18 <Vorpal> it is rather weird
23:28:50 <catseye> elliott: Sigh. I am downloading the NetBSD 5.0.2 install ISO, via torrent.
23:31:26 <olsner> but it's only 250MB, a torrent seems superfluous compared to finding a fast mirror :)
23:33:36 <catseye> olsner: perhaps. partly i was curious.
23:34:06 <catseye> torrents are also easier to continue when interrupted.
23:34:15 <zzo38> I have now posted the version 0.3 of Enhanced CWEB. Watch!
23:34:25 * catseye runs for cover
23:34:34 <olsner> you have to time it carefully to interrupt the download before it's done! :)
23:34:36 <zzo38> It has many new features and fixed features from old one
23:36:13 <catseye> olsner: ... i think we live in different worlds of network access.
23:36:37 <catseye> we have this thing here called "AT&T" and it is truly amazingly bad.
23:37:13 <zzo38> You are expected to complain about version 0.3 of Enhanced CWEB now, so that I can fix it and also answer question, please.
23:37:18 -!- augur has joined.
23:38:05 <zzo38> catseye: Now you are also expected to complain about "AT&T"
23:38:41 <catseye> zzo38: To be quite honest, I tried reading regular CWEB a few weeks ago, and could barely handle it. I don't think I'm ready for Enhanced CWEB.
23:39:19 <olsner> catseye: you should get the thing called Internet instead, it's the dog's bollocks supposedly
23:39:58 <Vorpal> olsner, I once downloaded ubuntu over http, turned out it was corrupted, some bytes had just gone missing. Used it as a starting point for redownloading it over bittorrent, about half of the thing (the first half) was usable
23:40:05 <Vorpal> the rest was just off by a few bytes
23:40:11 <Vorpal> where those few bytes had gone missing
23:40:27 <zzo38> catseye: OK. Which parts could you not handle? And are there things you don't understand? Features you should want different from normal CWEB? etc?
23:40:46 <Vorpal> olsner, since then I download any iso I can over bittorrent rather than httpo
23:40:48 <Vorpal> http*
23:41:40 <zzo38> Vorpal: I suppose bittorrent is good for large files, that is one of the things bittorrent is intended to do; which is, large files (such as videos, but it can be used for Linux distributions, too)
23:42:01 <olsner> someone could build a wget-torrent that on-the-fly checks a http download from a fast mirror against a torrent file with hashes
23:42:02 <Vorpal> zzo38, well, large enough that a failed download hurts in this case
23:42:04 <zzo38> (In addition, Ubuntu contains some videos)
23:42:18 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes.
23:42:24 <Vorpal> olsner, cool idea
23:45:52 <zzo38> catseye: I would like to know which parts you don't like, I am curious (and perhaps to make a survey, too)
23:47:53 <catseye> zzo38: I guess in the most general sense, the way I look at literate programming is more like literate Haskell, than CWEB.
23:48:22 <Sgeo> I should look for my library card
23:48:25 <catseye> That is, it is English (or other natural language) text, mixed with code, but it is basically linear.
23:48:32 <Sgeo> There are some ebooks that my library has that I want to read
23:48:35 <catseye> CWEB is more like hypertext.
23:49:44 <catseye> btw, the CWEB source I was looking at is in: http://www.fourmilab.ch/fist/
23:50:03 <zzo38> catseye: Ah. Yes, I know about literate Haskell. I prefer Enhanced CWEB, though (but that is just me)
23:50:07 <catseye> Which is also maybe a bad example because the program is relatively small and easy to understand.
23:51:06 * Sgeo assumes that zzo38 is going to make an almost completely secure, easy-to-use OS that only he will end up using
23:51:17 * Sgeo quickly scratches easy-to-use off
23:51:30 <Sgeo> Easy for zzo38-usage >.>
23:52:06 <zzo38> OK. I also don't like some of the notation used in normal CWEB; Enhanced CWEB uses some different notations that are improvement in my opinion.
23:52:11 * Sgeo hopes that none of what he just said can be construed as offensive
23:53:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: It doesn't offensive to me (but many things are not offensive to me, since I support freedom of speech). Still, you might be correct about those statements.
23:53:45 <zzo38> (I don't know about if it is offensive to other people or not.)
23:54:52 <catseye> I fully support the enhancement of all software, even if it's not something I'll ever use.
23:56:00 <zzo38> Some of the different notations in Enhanced CWEB are: normal equal sign for == and left arrow for = and up/down arrow for ++ and -- and optional line numbers in small fonts and using typograpical quotes for string delimiters, and so on...
23:56:06 <zzo38> catseye: I agree with that too
23:56:33 <zzo38> catseye: And it is also the reason to make fork of software.
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