←2010-10-17 2010-10-18 2010-10-19→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:01:20 <catseye> exit
00:01:24 <catseye> BWAHAHAHAHA
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00:09:10 <oerjan> i assume that means we are doomed.
00:09:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, we always been
00:10:26 -!- catseye has joined.
00:11:00 <catseye> Mounting NTFS filesystems read-write should be stable on Ibex? Do you think so, what is your opinion?
00:12:03 <Vorpal> catseye, "no"
00:12:20 <Vorpal> catseye, on karmic or later with ntfs-3g "yes"
00:12:53 <Vorpal> catseye, but I wouldn't do it on ibex
00:12:55 <catseye> Vorpal, "fuck"
00:13:06 <Vorpal> catseye, just upgrade ... duh
00:13:21 <catseye> DUH
00:14:00 <catseye> no risk of losing the files I'm trying to copy onto the NTFS filesystem by doing that
00:14:01 <Vorpal> catseye, do you have a large enough usb drive to hold a disk image of lucid or such? And an external hdd to back the whole disk to?
00:14:02 <Vorpal> if so
00:14:06 <Vorpal> boot usb stick
00:14:24 <Vorpal> dd if=/dev/sda1 /media/external-drive/whatever
00:14:26 <Vorpal> and so on
00:14:30 <Vorpal> for each partition
00:14:31 <Gregor> I has a purry lap kitty!
00:14:48 <catseye> Gregor: so has me! aw she left
00:14:49 <Vorpal> catseye, once per partition since that is easier to loop-mount
00:15:16 <catseye> wait wait wait
00:15:21 <oerjan> catseye: it is clear that you need to sacrifice the goat here
00:15:24 <catseye> i can boot 10.10 live off the usb stick
00:15:38 <catseye> and mount both partitions r/w under that boot
00:15:54 <Vorpal> catseye, I would still be careful and back the partition up first
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00:16:45 <catseye> Vorpal: it's backed up. I made sure to back it up before restoring Windows. But I'd like to get the files onto DVD (I don't entirely trust external HDDs after my experience with my last one.)
00:16:46 <Vorpal> catseye, and remember: do it using ntfs-3g, not using the in-kernel drivers
00:17:33 <catseye> Vorpal: how do I tell the difference? in fstab (in Ibex) it just says 'ntfs-3g'
00:18:16 <Vorpal> catseye, ibex has early ntfs-3g?
00:18:17 <Vorpal> well
00:18:21 <Vorpal> I would not trust it
00:19:00 <Vorpal> catseye, I mounted ntfs with ntfs-3g using the ntfs-3g command, never by fstab
00:19:45 <zzo38> Some of the programs I have written in Enhanced CWEB, it seems it should have bibliography section.
00:20:06 <Vorpal> zzo38, use bibtex then?
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00:20:49 <catseye> I would assume an ntfs-3g fstab entry is handled by the ntfs-3g command
00:21:13 <Vorpal> catseye, same
00:21:24 <Vorpal> catseye, I wouldn't trust such an old version as that of ibex though
00:21:29 <catseye> ok, trying-this time
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00:26:14 <catseye> llo llo
00:27:21 <catseye> oh, too easy.
00:27:34 <catseye> both drives are just available from the 'Places' menu. sweet.
00:29:30 <zzo38> Vorpal: BibTeX is one possibility. Or perhaps I can just write a TeX macro for bibliography, instead.
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00:32:23 <Vorpal> mhm
00:32:25 <Vorpal> night →
00:39:37 <pikhq> I GOT ACTUAL 24P OUT OF THIS
00:40:42 <pikhq> filmdint followed by phase=U. filmdint is a hybrid inverse teleciner and deinterlacer, and phase=U attempts to autodetect and correct interlacing that's at the wrong phase.
00:44:31 <pikhq> The *only* problem? Some of the frames are deinterlacer output, because for no good reason, some frames appear to only possess the bottom portions of the source 24p frame.
00:45:23 <pikhq> Ah, running phase=U before as well fixes some of *that*.
00:45:53 <pikhq> I AM VICTORIOUS
00:46:21 * Sgeo goes to install LyX
00:46:41 <Sgeo> zzo38, what's your opinion of LyX?
00:47:00 <pikhq> Better-than-source encode FTW.
00:48:20 <zzo38> Sgeo: I have not used it, but from what I see, I would prefer typing TeX codes in a text editor instead, including macros and category codes and all of that other stuff.
00:48:45 <zzo38> (Category codes is a feature of TeX which I use often.)
00:49:54 <zzo38> I suppose LyX is OK if you want to use LaTeX, though. But I don't use LaTeX.
00:50:43 <zzo38> (Because I think Plain TeX is superior)
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01:14:51 <quintopia> it is the millennium+10, and there is no more time for Mandelbrot
01:15:27 <oerjan> the future is _so_ last decade
01:25:03 * pikhq wonders why 25i video doesn't use 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 pulldown for 24p display
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01:36:43 <Sgeo> Note to self: Don't accept defaults just because they sound vaguely reasonable
01:37:00 <Sgeo> Asking me for each package whether or not to install it is NOT reasonable
01:37:15 * Sgeo unchecks something or other
01:41:03 <catseye> elliott: I think we can safely assume NetBSD will not be happening tonight.
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01:43:37 <elliott> bac
01:43:39 <elliott> *back
01:43:42 <elliott> catseye: aww. why? :(
01:44:04 <elliott> Sgeo: what are you installing?
01:44:26 <Sgeo> LyX, which needed to install MikTeX
01:44:44 <elliott> Sgeo: installing all latex packages is a good idea
01:44:52 <elliott> hey i just realised, i'm on at the same time every day
01:44:59 <elliott> since i wake up on weekends the same time i get back from school
01:45:20 <pikhq> You may have a sleep disorder.
01:46:12 <elliott> pikhq: i deem it "teenagerism"
01:46:15 <olsner> I may have a sleeping disorder too.
01:46:27 <elliott> pikhq: The great thing is, I can't medicate it legally!
01:46:28 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> hey i just realised, i'm on at the same time every day <pikhq> You may have a sleep disorder.
01:46:37 <elliott> pikhq: Melatonin is a prescription-only drug over here.
01:46:38 <olsner> nah, I'm just not sleeping properly, it's not a disorder
01:46:45 <pikhq> oerjan: :D
01:46:52 <elliott> And convincing a GP to prescribe melatonin... hahahhahahahahahaha never. happening.
01:46:59 <oerjan> dammit, hackego isn't here
01:48:24 * Sgeo should probably make some effort to do some homwork
01:48:51 * olsner makes an effort to sleep
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01:51:53 <catseye> slackego!
01:52:12 <catseye> elliott: well, depends on how much longer it takes to copy, burn, etc.
01:52:47 * coppro wants to implement a generic tactical game engine in Haskell
01:54:38 <Sgeo> MikTeX isn't LaTeX?
01:55:00 <oerjan> coppro: in the type system!
01:55:05 * oerjan runs away
01:55:23 <catseye> ab-dab
01:55:31 <coppro> oerjan: ofc
01:55:46 <coppro> amusingly, it leads to a precise definition of a tactical game
01:59:49 <Sgeo> elliott, is Computer Modern an acceptable font to you?
02:00:12 <elliott> Sgeo: for what?
02:00:15 <elliott> your question is beyond vague
02:00:27 <elliott> <oerjan> coppro: in the type system!
02:00:32 <elliott> I want to write a typechecker.
02:00:32 <Sgeo> To look at/use/whatever
02:00:33 <elliott> In the type system!
02:00:36 <elliott> Sgeo: for *what*?
02:00:39 <elliott> what document?
02:00:58 <Sgeo> ...good point
02:01:15 <Sgeo> Is it visually pleasing with Lorem Ipsum?
02:01:26 <oerjan> elliott: the AI Emancipation Proclamation
02:01:44 <elliott> Sgeo: I refuse to answer typography questions about Lorem Ipsum...
02:03:54 <oerjan> Ipso Facto
02:04:01 * oerjan now with recycling
02:06:09 <Sgeo> I assume that Yap is a DVI viewer?
02:06:58 <elliott> pikhq: http://fbpanel.sourceforge.net/index.html
02:07:11 <elliott> Sgeo: yes
02:07:17 <elliott> "Yet Another Previewer"
02:11:56 <elliott> pikhq: Somehow setting the resolution with xrandr and rebooting... works.
02:12:11 * Sgeo decides to redo the LyX tutorial
02:12:19 <Sgeo> It's been years since I've touched LyX
02:13:01 <pikhq> elliott: ?
02:13:07 <pikhq> elliott: That.. And. Why?
02:13:13 <elliott> pikhq: I don't even know.
02:13:18 <elliott> pikhq: It... it remembers.
02:13:20 <elliott> How does it remember?
02:13:22 <elliott> I DON'T KNOW
02:14:04 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, fbpanel looks like a nice dependency-free panel.
02:19:12 <pikhq> phase,filmdint,phase,telecine,phase,pullup,softskip
02:19:38 <pikhq> I can't *believe* that is the fucking chain I need to put it through to inverse telecine it without noticable artifacting.
02:21:12 <elliott> pikhq: LeanDE (Kitten's totally approverated desktop environment) as it is right now: lwm (perhaps a forked, slightly-enhanced version), fbpanel, Midori, ?
02:21:23 <pikhq> And now I can stop stopping the encode with a better idea. Because this is actually perfect.
02:21:40 <elliott> Might tweak fbpanel a bit so that the current window is actually de-pressed.
02:21:41 <elliott> But yeah.
02:22:45 <elliott> pikhq: ...fbpanel tries to use slock by default :D
02:22:50 <elliott> suckless' locking program.
02:23:06 <elliott> TOTALLY APPROVE
02:24:04 <elliott> pikhq: Heh, LXDE's lxpanel is a fork of fbpanel.
02:24:09 <elliott> Except made to be more RUBBISH LXDE CRAP
02:24:27 <pikhq> God dammit. It's mixed telecine and interlaced. Because it hates me. HATES HATE HATES.
02:24:37 <elliott> pikhq: More better ideas, eh?
02:24:52 <pikhq> elliott: No, just hatred.
02:25:52 <elliott> pikhq: Oh lawl, fbpanel opens applications you click as child processes.
02:25:56 <elliott> pikhq: Totally needs some patching.
02:26:00 <pikhq> Fuck it. What's the best deinterlacing filter for animation?
02:27:55 <Gregor> Not telecining in the first place X-P
02:28:26 <elliott> pikhq: You should totally install lwm and admire the awesomely-designed WM.
02:28:36 <elliott> Elliott H. represent
02:28:38 <GreaseMonkey> yay i now have a new sound test for bytepusher which doesn't have an irritating female robot voice
02:28:47 <GreaseMonkey> now to get some gfx up
02:29:46 <pikhq> Linear blend appears to look best for animation.
02:29:47 <pikhq> TO ENCODING
02:30:06 <pikhq> And *still* needing the phase filter.
02:30:08 <pikhq> elliott: Mmm.
02:30:43 <elliott> Also features a Sufficiently Snarky Developer:
02:30:49 <elliott> "lwm is a window manager for X that tries to keep out of your face. There are no icons, no button bars, no icon docks, no root menus, no nothing: if you want all that, then other programs can provide it. There's no configurability either: if you want that, you want a different window manager; one that helps your operating system in its evil conquest of your disc space and its annexation of your physical memory."
02:30:56 <elliott> (Note: It has a few X resources to configure it.)
02:31:02 <elliott> Goodnight; bye.
02:31:03 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, it's telecined. And then edited. And post processed. And then it has 30i cell-shaded 3D overlayed.
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02:31:16 <pikhq> Gregor: And for kicks, it's got the wrong interlacing.
02:32:07 <Gregor> pikhq: So presumably this is something from one source used in the background of a different thing?
02:32:46 <Gregor> (That's just the only way I can imagine it being that broken :P
02:33:08 <pikhq> Gregor: It's just Invader Zim, off of DVD.
02:33:17 <pikhq> They just *put it to disc like that*.
02:33:36 <Gregor> Sweet.
02:34:23 <pikhq> The screwed up interlacing absolutely astonishes me, though. I can't believe they managed to screw up the field order.
02:34:43 <Gregor> lol, seriously? That's ... pretty broken.
02:35:17 <pikhq> Yes. The mencoder phase filter was designed to fix that.
02:36:23 <pikhq> (they use the opposite field order from NTSC)
02:38:03 <Gregor> Hm
02:39:01 <Gregor> phase filter documentation doesn't MENTION it only working in pal :P
02:48:46 <catseye> Mmmmaybe Mmmmmaverick can burn an ISO to DVD for mmmmme...?
02:49:16 <catseye> trying
02:50:42 <pikhq> Gregor: No, it's *meant* for PAL.
02:51:17 <catseye> it's going!
02:51:19 <pikhq> But it's flexible.
02:52:25 <GreaseMonkey> actually i should probably consider modifying it to play part of a rendering of cd_orbit.mod
03:00:17 <catseye> tworked! I have a NetBSD 5.0.2 install DVD. Quite glad I did not purchase the external DVD burner; it was just some problem in intrepid.
03:03:21 <pikhq> D'awww. ATSC allows for h264, but most ATSC TVs can't display it, so nobody broadcasts in it.
03:03:41 <pikhq> (h264 requires about half the bitrate for the same quality as MPEG2...)
03:10:14 <Gregor> It's also crazy-expensive to {en,de}code.
03:10:51 <Gregor> Well, it's CRAZY-expensive to encode. It's merely slightly more expensive to decode than what people are willing to put into TVs.
03:12:34 <Gregor> -
03:12:45 <Gregor> Yes. Behold my minus sign.
03:13:15 <GreaseMonkey> would VP8 or theora be expensive to decode?
03:13:21 <GreaseMonkey> kinda wondering
03:13:51 <GreaseMonkey> then again, tv manufacturers and broadcasters can probably pay for patent royalties
03:14:13 <Gregor> IIRC Theora is worse than it ought to be, VP8 is pretty OK, both are more expensive than MPEG2 or MPEG4, and less than H.264 (it doesn't take much to be less than H.264)
03:14:42 <GreaseMonkey> i quite like theora
03:15:50 <pikhq> Gregor: VP8 is actually only *slightly* less expensive than H.264.
03:16:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Because it's fundamentally H.264 without the patent violating bits.
03:16:19 <pikhq> (at least, as far as is known)
03:16:22 <Gregor> Oh, is it? That's ... weird, I thought it was totally unrelated.
03:16:46 <pikhq> Nope. ffmpeg's VP8 encoder is a hack of its h264 encoder.
03:16:47 <pikhq> :)
03:17:21 <Gregor> Hm.
03:17:35 <pikhq> Also, it's only expensive to decode in software. With a hardware decoder, it's not at all difficult.
03:17:47 <pikhq> (they're fucking putting h.264 decoders in *phones* these days, man.)
03:21:56 * Gregor is failing to find any corroborating evidence of this comparison.
03:24:57 <quintopia> http://pics.spaceghetto.st/images/k9dnf.jpg sfw
03:26:55 <pikhq> Gregor: My fucking cell phone decodes h.264.
03:27:24 <Gregor> pikhq: I'm talking about corroborating evidence of the H.264-to-VP8 similarity.
03:29:12 * Gregor goes back to not caring :P
03:30:11 <coppro> I know someone who works of ffmpeg
03:30:14 <coppro> *on
03:30:34 <coppro> He was suggesting that they rename the fastest test profile from 'veryfast' to 'plaid'
03:30:53 <Gregor> X-D
03:30:58 <Gregor> We've gone to plaid!
03:30:59 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh.
03:31:01 <catseye> oerjan: I'm trying to figure out bits of category theory and bits of domain theory so I can understand what denotational arrows would be. I think I'm inching closer...
03:31:17 <Gregor> pikhq: My phone decodes H.264 too :P
03:31:31 <Gregor> (Probably in hardware)
03:32:42 <pikhq> Gregor: http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/archives/377
03:33:37 <Gregor> Heh, just searching for "H.264" makes it pretty clear :P
03:33:49 <Gregor> So it's not that it's "based on" H.264 per se, it just rips off almost every aspect of it.
03:33:54 <pikhq> "VP8 is simply way too similar to H.264: a pithy, if slightly inaccurate, description of VP8 would be “H.264 Baseline Profile with a better entropy coder”."
03:34:00 <catseye> ok, brasero has spent twenty minutes "Creating image checksum" for a 650M image. I think it's broken.
03:34:46 <pikhq> On a slightly tangential note, it's a bit upsetting what happened to VC-1.
03:35:01 <pikhq> Microsoft tried to make a patent-free video codec.
03:35:15 <pikhq> Aaand patent trolls found some patents and set up a licensing group.
03:36:05 <Gregor> Same thing that happens whenever anybody tries to make anything patent-free.
03:36:28 <pikhq> Except when you go to great pains to make it unique or use old techniques.
03:36:35 <pikhq> (Vorbis and Theora, respectively)
03:36:36 <catseye> patent trolls are the sweetest kind of troll
03:37:38 <pikhq> Well. Theora's not *entirely* without patents. It just has a perpetual license granted to all of humanity for those patents...
03:37:53 -!- quintopia has left (?).
03:39:07 <GreaseMonkey> trick for bytepusher programmers: if you're doing just audio and no graphics, set the framebuffer to point to code where stuff is happening or something
03:39:37 <GreaseMonkey> also it's not a dumb idea to overlap the video and audio buffers
03:41:39 <catseye> that's... not always what i want to see when listening to audio, but, point taken
03:45:47 <pikhq> Hmm. MP3 should be patent-free soon. Awesome.
03:47:09 <pikhq> Though it's always ambiguous, it's *likely* that it'll be patent free by December 2012.
03:47:48 <pikhq> Likewise for MP1 and MP2.
03:48:18 <GreaseMonkey> http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~greaser/stuff/bytepusher/cd_orbit.BytePusher.gz
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03:48:29 <GreaseMonkey> sample not mine
03:50:44 <Gregor> There should be a video format that's actually just a bytecode format.
03:50:57 <Gregor> You include both the video and the code to decode and play it.
03:51:27 <pikhq> That would be wonderful for certain things.
03:51:43 <pikhq> Say, recordings from an emulator.
03:51:56 <pikhq> The "video" consists of the emulation for the video & sound chips and their inputs.
03:52:00 <Gregor> Vector video.
03:52:07 <pikhq> And vector video, yes.
03:52:20 <pikhq> From a vector arcade game. :P
03:52:32 <Gregor> And if you want conventional video, you stick a $YOUR_FAVORITE_CODEC decoder in there and you're done.
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04:05:58 <pikhq> And now I am truly, 100% satisified with how this encode is going.
04:06:10 <pikhq> IT TOOK ALL FUCKING DAY just to figure out how to make it not suck.
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04:09:41 <Sgeo> Gregor, malicious videos1
04:09:45 <Sgeo> Well, I guess not
04:10:09 <Sgeo> Or, actually. How much memory can the language request?
04:10:40 <Gregor> Way to get back your malicious videos through our good friend DoS :P
04:11:29 <pikhq> Sgeo: I'd imagine "as much as it can take before the video player comes to cockpunch the asshat that made the video."
04:12:18 <Gregor> Man, if I knew 100% more about video encoding but also knew what I do about PL, I'd totally make the procedural video codec.
04:12:26 <Gregor> Oh god it's PVC agaaaaaaaaaaain
04:12:49 <Sgeo> again?
04:13:05 <Gregor> PVC got mentioned as a coincidental initialism a couple days ago :P
04:14:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Probably the hardest thing about video encoding is realising that the patent trolls have made it nearly impossible to do anything in the field.
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04:15:13 <Gregor> That's the whole point of PlasticVideo :P
04:15:28 <pikhq> Alternately, flee the country.
04:15:44 <Sgeo> PlasticVideo?
04:16:00 <Gregor> Sgeo: Procedural Video Codec -> PVC -> PlasticVideo
04:16:11 <Sgeo> Somehow, I doubt that I'm interested in learning about how plastic gets.... Oh!
04:20:22 <Gregor> I guess it's not really a codec at all, is it :P
04:20:32 <Gregor> Well, maybe it is ... sort of.
04:20:45 <Gregor> It is to codecs as Fythe is to languages.
04:20:59 <Sgeo> FyThE
04:21:16 <Sgeo> Why is that sort of capitalization horrible everywhere else, but acceptable for TeX and LaTeX?
04:21:31 <coppro> because Knuth is special
04:22:44 <Sgeo> KnUtH
04:22:57 <Sgeo> DoNaLd KnUtH
04:23:04 <Gregor> You mean KNuTH. Vowels are lower-case.
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04:33:57 <pikhq> Oh, huh. MP2 is actually patent free.
04:34:20 <GreaseMonkey> the audio codec?
04:34:25 <pikhq> Yeah.
04:34:36 <pikhq> Not by design, just coincidence.
04:36:06 <catseye> oerjan: maybe, if you have a notion of reduction in your language, you can have one object per term in the language, and morphisms to all the terms it would reduce to.
04:36:46 <catseye> *one morphism for each term it could reduce to.
04:36:51 <catseye> this is rather simplistic
04:37:26 <Gregor> Isn't MP2 audio kinda ... garbage?
04:37:52 <pikhq> Gregor: No. It's actually in common use in broadcasting still.
04:38:39 <oerjan> quite so.
04:39:25 <pikhq> And it is most comparable to AAC, Vorbis, or other such modern codecs, starting at about 128 kbit/s.
04:39:45 <pikhq> MP3 took off because it has better performance at lower bit rates.
04:41:49 <pikhq> (MP2 was designed to have very high quality sound at 192 kbit/s and transparency at 256 kbit/s with the reference encoder, MP3 was designed to have *acceptable* performance at 128 kbit/s. Aaand then encoders improved.)
04:42:58 <pikhq> Oh, and MP3 is actually incapable of transparency. Literally incapable of it.
04:43:46 * Gregor wonders vaguely what it means for audio to be transparent.
04:44:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Perceptually identical to the uncompressed source.
04:44:24 <Gregor> Err ... that seems ... really difficult to define.
04:44:29 <pikhq> AB testing.
04:44:47 <Gregor> But different people have different sensitivities.
04:44:48 <pikhq> MP3 always has artifacting, it's just a matter of how annoying it is.
04:45:05 <coppro> same as JPEG
04:45:08 * coppro twitches
04:46:48 <pikhq> coppro: It's actually possible to have lossless JPEG, I *think*.
04:47:20 <Gregor> There is a /modification/ of JPEG to be lossless.
04:48:08 <pikhq> Gregor: No, the original JPEG standard defines a lossless scheme.
04:48:35 <Gregor> Yeah, which is totally unrelated to the non-lossless one and isn't implemented by anyone :P
04:48:43 <Sgeo> transparency?
04:48:48 <Gregor> lawl
04:48:49 <Sgeo> Oh
04:49:30 <pikhq> And I'm pretty sure ordinary JPEG can be made lossless-modulo-rounding-errors just by setting the quantisation matrix right.
04:49:35 <Sgeo> How can it be impossible for something to have transparency? Is it always known that artifacts will be of a certain size?
04:50:02 <catseye> oerjan: but if your arrows take programs (representations) to their meanings (denotations), those are really two different kinds of object, so how is that a category, unless you do some sleight-of-hand? that's where I'm stuck at atm
04:50:02 <Sgeo> *at least of a certain size
04:50:09 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, this is the case for MP3. The best it can have is not having very bad artifacting on certain sources.
04:51:23 <oerjan> maybe make it a functor and programs and meanings different categories
04:51:55 <catseye> oerjan: But "denotational functor" just doesn't have the same ring to it! oh well.
04:52:30 <oerjan> no but the arrows could be the arrows in the meaning/denotation category
04:53:07 <catseye> oh, er, ok... i suppose they could...
04:53:22 * catseye tries to visualize what those would mean
04:54:06 <catseye> compositionof meanings, i suppose
04:54:32 <catseye> ok, i need to appreciate more about functors for this to work itself out in my head now
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05:14:52 <pikhq> My God. I'm getting transparency at 450kbps.
05:15:27 <pikhq> I LOVE X264!
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05:19:31 <Gregor> Your input is cell-shaded, yes?
05:21:46 <pikhq> Yes. Still quite impressive.
05:21:53 <pikhq> Well, cell-shaded, animated on cells, etc.
05:22:14 <pikhq> You'd think that'd be easy to compress.
05:22:26 <pikhq> The problem is, most encoders fail horribly at this.
05:22:29 <Gregor> Except that hard borders are the WORST things to compress.
05:22:41 <pikhq> Yup.
05:23:03 <pikhq> Everything else is quite nice about it, but hard borders require a lot of pain.
05:23:07 <Gregor> Which is why I'm finding 450kbps semi-dubious, since I usually go for 1200 :P
05:23:30 <pikhq> I'm telling x264 to go for a target quality instead of a bitrate.
05:24:00 <pikhq> And it popped out a 450kbps average for this video. And it looks wonderful.
05:24:04 <Gregor> Hm.
05:24:39 <Sgeo> What's the native format?
05:24:49 <Gregor> s/native/source/
05:24:51 <pikhq> MPEG2 complying to DVD specs.
05:24:52 <Sgeo> I'm assuming video has to be stored as something
05:25:18 <Sgeo> Hmm
05:25:26 <pikhq> Which needed fiddling to come out well.
05:25:35 <Sgeo> How would PlasticVideo handle Worms replay files? Watching them requires having the game :(
05:26:00 <Sgeo> Might be a bit massive even to include a stripped down copy of the game with each file
05:26:24 <Gregor> Sgeo: You would have to convert them to some layers-and-sprites format.
05:26:50 <pikhq> It seems to be varying between 450 and 650 kbps average for these episodes.
05:28:20 <pikhq> Depending on the amount of cell-shaded 3D stuff in the episode, it seems.
05:29:16 <Gregor> pikhq: How does one make x264 do constant-quality? :P
05:29:40 <pikhq> Gregor: crf option.
05:30:00 <Gregor> Ah, there 'tis.
05:30:03 <Gregor> What crf do you use?
05:30:28 <pikhq> The default, which is 23.0.
05:30:42 <Sgeo> I hate Chrome's hatred of Reddit
05:30:48 <pikhq> So... Just don't pass a bitrate option.
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05:31:06 <pikhq> I'm currently encoding with -x264encopts tune=animation:preset=slow
05:31:32 <pikhq> The preset & tune options are by far my favorite recent feature.
05:32:17 * Gregor triest to remember why he added bitrate= to his script in the first place...
05:32:44 <pikhq> The crf rate control thing is somewhat recent, I think.
05:33:13 <pikhq> I know my mencoder.conf was written some 3 years ago according to what was recommended practice *then*...
05:33:49 <Gregor> Mmm.
05:33:50 <pikhq> And I only changed it today because 2-pass encoding stopped working with my settings.
05:34:09 <pikhq> And then I found out that I can completely omit 2-pass encoding now. :D
05:38:06 <Gregor> Oh? Doesn't 2-pass still do better even with constant-quality? (Better bitrate at the same quality)
05:39:17 <pikhq> 2-pass is mutually incompatible with that.
05:39:33 <pikhq> Erm. Just incompatible.
05:39:34 <pikhq> Anyways.
05:40:21 <pikhq> All 2-pass does is try and get better quality from the video while meeting the *precise* bitrate you asked for.
05:40:49 <pikhq> Which makes it both look better while shooting for a specific bitrate and makes you actually *get* the bitrate you asked for.
05:41:37 <pikhq> Really handy if you want to try and make the video fit onto, say, a Bluray disc, sucky if you just want it to look good and don't care about file size consistency.
05:43:41 <Gregor> Right.
05:51:22 <Gregor> Is Codu frozen upgrading GHC? :P
05:54:32 <Sgeo> Did I make an idiot out of myself, or is does my attempted statistics reference make sense?
05:54:33 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5695862
05:55:15 <Sgeo> s/or/xor/
05:55:28 <Sgeo> s/xor/fuck you/
06:04:11 <Gregor> Y'know what I love? Things that segfault unless you run them under gdb.
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06:16:07 <pikhq> Hmm. There is one noticable artifact here. I can see artifacts from the 4:2:0 chroma subsampling.
06:17:18 <pikhq> But, that's in the source. Can't do anything about that.
06:18:06 <Gregor> Artifacts on DVDs = fail.
06:18:48 <pikhq> Artifacts from the chroma subsampling are actually pretty impossible to avoid if the original video is just right.
06:19:09 <pikhq> (read: animated)
06:19:28 <pikhq> That's happening long before any information is actually thrown away by the codec.
06:19:52 <Sgeo> chroma subsampling?
06:20:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: The chrominance on many digital video signals is stored at a lower resolution than the luminance.
06:20:46 <Sgeo> chrominance? Anything like hue?
06:20:48 <Ilari> 36/8 and 42/8 allocated to APNIC. 7 /8s to allocate (+5 to distribute) remain.
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06:20:53 <pikhq> That's the color information.
06:21:21 <Sgeo> luminance is how dark/bright it is?
06:21:24 <pikhq> Yup.
06:21:50 <pikhq> The reason that's done is that the human eye is more sensitive to luminance than to chrominance.
06:21:56 <Sgeo> Notebook's yelling at me
06:22:04 <pikhq> And it was first done in NTSC...
06:23:33 * Sgeo turns off compy
06:23:37 <Sgeo> Nightynight
06:24:29 <pikhq> Anyways, it's somewhat noticable on animation because the hard edges between regions can sometimes result in showing an off color on those edges.
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06:32:10 <pikhq> Huh. It is possible to donate to reduce the US national debt.
06:33:06 <pikhq> Just write a check to: Attn Dept G / Bureau of the Public Debt / P.O. Box 2188 / Parkersburg, WV 26106-2188. (source: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm#DebtFinance)
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06:33:44 <pikhq> Perhaps Republicans should know about that.
06:33:44 <pikhq> :P
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06:39:45 <Gregor> When "drop in a bucket" meets "single molecule of water on Jupiter"
06:44:15 <pikhq> Yeah, but if they're poorer they'll have less influence on politics.
06:44:15 <pikhq> :P
06:49:34 <Gregor> My crf=23 gave me 1700kbps :P
06:49:39 <Gregor> Higher than the 1200 I specified.
06:50:00 <Gregor> (I figured you might want me to inform you that 1700 is in fact greater than 1200)
06:51:03 <pikhq> The resulting bitrate is quite dependent on the source quality. :)
06:51:13 <pikhq> Erm, the source.
06:51:20 <pikhq> BTW, were you doing that with preset=slow?
06:54:39 <Gregor> Nope.
06:54:42 <Gregor> Just no options at all :P
06:54:59 <Gregor> And the source is really low-quality, it's a video from my PowerShot X-P
06:55:44 <pikhq> Setting it to preset=slow should improve the quality/bitrate ratio.
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07:05:45 <Gregor> I think Codu's hard disk access got super-slow.
07:05:53 <Gregor> And that's why all the blehness.
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07:36:54 <Gregor> Yup, Codu is definitely self-destructing X-D
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07:39:08 <Gregor> HI ME!
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10:00:35 <ais523> wtf is going on on http://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher?
10:00:46 <ais523> occasionally you get a page submitted to Wikipedia which is more like an advert or press release
10:00:50 <ais523> I think that's happened there, but ontopic
10:01:07 <ais523> (I'm inclined to just leave it, it's fun to have the page around and it is actually useful)
10:05:47 <GreaseMonkey> heh, it does kinda look like that
10:06:12 <GreaseMonkey> btw it's quite easy to make a compliant VM for
10:06:19 <GreaseMonkey> like, *scarily* easy
10:09:43 <GreaseMonkey> also yeah it needs a subleq OISC VM
10:10:36 <GreaseMonkey> seems doable, have a sub table and a carry table
10:11:03 <GreaseMonkey> the carry table having $00 on no carry and $FF on carry
10:11:07 <GreaseMonkey> that's two 64KB tables
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11:23:51 <ais523> hmm, amusing changelog entry (Ubuntu bumping the version of Wine): "Many more applications work, especially those from companies named after particularly cold weather events"
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12:29:14 <cheater> ais523: ?
12:29:19 <cheater> ais523: what does that mean?
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12:59:51 <oerjan> <Gregor> I think Codu's hard disk access got super-slow.
12:59:52 <oerjan> ouch
13:05:40 <oerjan> <pikhq> Huh. It is possible to donate to reduce the US national debt.
13:07:00 <oerjan> i vaguely recall a few years ago there was some relatively rich guy in norway who had tried to pay extra taxes. he wasn't allowed to.
13:18:49 <oerjan> <cheater> ais523: what does that mean?
13:19:20 <oerjan> i second that question.
13:20:41 * oerjan suddenly realizes he hasn't seen google screw up his browser back history again in a while
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15:34:09 <Gregor> Hey now, the disk seems to have restored itself!
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15:37:59 <Gregor> Never mind, I forgot conv=fdatasync X-P
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15:38:13 <Gregor> Shockingly, the in-memory disk cache is fast.
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16:07:34 -!- elliott has set topic: RIP Benoît Mandelbrot (logs: http://is.gd/g4uID).
16:07:37 <elliott> topic spacing entirely deliberate
16:08:04 <elliott> 02:00:35 <ais523> wtf is going on on http://esolangs.org/wiki/BytePusher?
16:08:04 <elliott> 02:00:46 <ais523> occasionally you get a page submitted to Wikipedia which is more like an advert or press release
16:08:04 <elliott> 02:00:50 <ais523> I think that's happened there, but ontopic
16:08:04 <elliott> 02:01:07 <ais523> (I'm inclined to just leave it, it's fun to have the page around and it is actually useful)
16:08:09 <elliott> it's just evolved around one editor, pretty much
16:09:11 <Gregor> Unlike Wikipedia, that's OK on esolangs :P
16:09:18 <elliott> indeed
16:09:22 <elliott> and bytepusher is actually fun
16:09:50 <Gregor> That being said, it doesn't seem all that esoteric X-P
16:10:00 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, it's an OISC.
16:10:15 <elliott> Gregor: In fact, it's just MOV + JMP (unconditional).
16:10:25 <Gregor> I should read more before saying things.
16:10:28 <elliott> So... pretty esoteric OISC there.
16:10:32 <elliott> No conditionals in the actual instruction.
16:11:00 <elliott> Gregor: Although I have to say that my ripoff is TOTALLY more awesome.
16:11:06 <elliott> (I want to base it on a one-operand OISC.)
16:11:12 <Sgeo> "The HTTP protocol is connectionless and stateless"
16:11:13 <elliott> Because one-operand OISCs are awesome.
16:11:22 <elliott> Especially as program can just be written as lists of addresses.
16:11:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hm you are interested in formal proving and such right? I have a question about such a software that I heard about
16:11:40 <Vorpal> (basically, if it is any good at all)
16:11:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Name it.
16:12:16 <Vorpal> elliott, frama-c, looked in aptitude, seems to use coq internally, used to prove stuff about C code
16:12:33 <Vorpal> elliott, basically I wonder if it is worth investigating it any further
16:12:52 <elliott> I know nothing about it, but it has a Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frama-C that seems to imply it is great.
16:13:03 <elliott> Vorpal: it uses Coq or others internally, i tseems
16:13:05 <elliott> *it seems
16:13:08 <elliott> also their website is cool: http://frama-c.com/
16:13:15 <elliott> alan kay quote and odd juxtaposition of portrait with code
16:13:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i'd say definitely worth investigating further.
16:13:32 <Vorpal> elliott, heh, both ocaml and coq are pulled in when I select it in aptitude.
16:13:35 <Vorpal> elliott, thanks
16:13:46 <elliott> however i know nothing of the practical software provers because they're for grubby bad languages that you can't prove anything about really ;)
16:14:05 <elliott> you should write your software in Coq, prove things about it in Coq, and then extract it to O'Caml!
16:14:11 <elliott> *OCaml
16:14:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I just hope it isn't yet another splint (good in theory, awful in practise)
16:14:33 <elliott> Vorpal: it looks simultaneously more practical and more theoretical.
16:14:51 <elliott> slicing: this plugin enables to slice a program (program slicing). It enables to generate a smaller new C program which preserves some given properties[2].
16:14:55 <elliott> Vorpal: ^ if that actually works, so cool.
16:14:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well, a quick tests seems to indicates it treat any doxygen comments as parse errors
16:15:01 <Sgeo> "There is a big difference between GET and POST"
16:15:08 <elliott> Sgeo: why are you quoting this?
16:15:09 <Sgeo> "One is secure-er"
16:15:18 <elliott> Sgeo: securer is a word
16:15:24 <elliott> but that lecturer sounds like a moron
16:15:25 <elliott> walk out
16:15:27 <Vorpal> which is a bit of a pain, but nothing you can't work around
16:15:29 <elliott> in fact they are a moron
16:15:38 <elliott> saying one is more secure than the other
16:15:39 <elliott> Sgeo: walk out
16:15:44 <elliott> Vorpal: well they tend to be a bit anal.
16:15:47 <elliott> these tools
16:16:06 <Sgeo> Well, actually, in a sense, since having, say, a session ID in a URL is a bad idea...
16:16:09 <elliott> Vorpal: probably it only recognises /* with a spaec after it
16:16:10 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah, I just have to strip those /*@{*/ comments that are used to group stuff in doxygen out
16:16:18 <Vorpal> elliott, since that is what it is erroring on
16:16:23 <elliott> Sgeo: it's still a terrible way to introduce them and gives a bad first impression and bullshit and-- walk out
16:16:30 <elliott> why are you wasting your time?
16:16:33 <Vorpal> used for stuff like documenting a group of defines or whatever
16:16:41 <Sgeo> Because I need this class for this track
16:16:56 <elliott> Sgeo: and?
16:16:59 <elliott> doesn't mean you have to listen to idiocy
16:17:01 <Sgeo> She's glossing over it quickly, and wants to get to CGI
16:17:01 <Vorpal> Sgeo, cookies
16:17:07 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that is where you put session ids
16:17:17 <Sgeo> Vorpal, true
16:17:23 <Gregor> Must ... resist ... urge ... to make ... JavaScript+Canvas ... BytePusher ...
16:17:33 <Sgeo> BytePusher?
16:17:36 <elliott> Sgeo: you're not going to learn anything, so just leave.
16:17:40 <elliott> do something more productive.
16:17:44 <elliott> or at least interesting
16:18:07 <elliott> Gregor: NONONO implement mine, it's based on a one-operand OISC you see.
16:18:10 <elliott> Gregor: Also more fun.
16:18:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, your basic issue is that you are exploring the coding phase space breadth-first, not depth-first
16:18:27 <Vorpal> same goes for elliott really
16:18:36 <elliott> That was beyond meaningless.
16:18:41 <Gregor> No, it wasn't.
16:18:48 <Gregor> It is totally meaningful and applicable.
16:18:57 <elliott> Gregor: Well, okay, it was squarely in meaningless.
16:18:59 <Gregor> BUT I CAN'T STOP *sobs*
16:19:21 <Vorpal> well... it is a bit hard to express the idea to elliott it seems
16:19:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I AM NOT IN DENIAL SHUT UP
16:19:32 <elliott> Gregor: Have you ever realised that Javascript sucks?
16:19:33 <Sgeo> Being in here is interesting enough
16:19:35 <Vorpal> elliott, :D
16:19:37 <elliott> [Gregor jumps off a building]
16:19:45 <elliott> He realised that his life has no meaning.
16:19:48 <Gregor> elliott: JavaScript is AWESOME. -ly terrible. -ly awesome.
16:19:56 <elliott> Gregor: -ly bad.
16:20:28 <Vorpal> elliott, java or javascript, which is worst in your opinion
16:20:46 <elliott> Vorpal: I dearly hope I never have to answer that question.
16:21:08 <Sgeo> Javascript isn't that bad. It has anonymous functions.
16:21:11 <elliott> Well, at least Eich stuck as much of Scheme into JavaScript as he could.
16:21:15 <elliott> But on the other hand,
16:21:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well obviously both are quite bad.
16:21:18 <elliott> Java isn't FUCKING INSANE HOLY SHIT.
16:21:30 <elliott> Java is just bad. You know, you can deal with that.
16:21:37 * Gregor <3 JavaScript
16:21:45 <Sgeo> Javascript's WORSE in elliott's opinion?
16:21:50 <elliott> Gregor is just on drugs. Permanently. Which is why he loves JavaScript.
16:21:59 <elliott> Sgeo: Spoken like somebody who has never seen JavaScript's object model. or scoping
16:22:03 <elliott> or arithmetic shit
16:22:18 <elliott> or
16:22:18 <Gregor> The only drugs I'm on are JAVASCRIPT! Which is admittedly a pretty potent drug.
16:22:19 <elliott> anything really
16:22:34 <Sgeo> I've done stuff with YouOS before!
16:22:42 <Gregor> And I say that as a person who's written nomath.js :P
16:22:46 <elliott> I once raped a camel!
16:22:57 <Gregor> elliott: Hey! I was that camel!
16:22:57 <elliott> Moral: Don't tell people about the terrible things you've done, Sgeo.
16:23:11 <elliott> Gregor: YOU WERE ASKING FOR IT
16:23:23 <elliott> Gregor: You were singing "My Humps"
16:23:28 <Vorpal> elliott, btw didn't you brag about 800 kB/s down recently?
16:23:33 <elliott> Vorpal: No.
16:23:36 <elliott> I said that at least I got it.
16:23:39 <Vorpal> ah
16:23:40 <Vorpal> right
16:23:45 <elliott> And then mocked myself with <Scandinavia>.
16:24:10 <Vorpal> elliott, today I got updates at about 6 MB/s. Since this was over 802.11g that is pretty good
16:24:16 * Gregor watches his wonderful unreliable 100KB/s
16:24:39 <elliott> Vorpal: MiB?
16:24:52 <Vorpal> elliott, whatever the unit aptitude reports :P
16:24:57 <elliott> Vorpal: MiB.
16:25:00 <Vorpal> right
16:25:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Fuck you, you unholy piece of shit, with your BANDWIDTH
16:25:17 <elliott> It is wasted on Sweden :|
16:25:24 <elliott> You probably contracted out to Satan
16:25:28 <elliott> Just for the bandwidth.
16:25:32 <Vorpal> elliott, sadly that only happens at university when you are there very early or very late. Otherwise the wlan is just slow.
16:25:42 <elliott> Why not just camp out there
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16:25:59 <Vorpal> elliott, because I can't even get any connection that lasts more than a few seconds around noon?
16:26:22 <Vorpal> elliott, and even then it is 1 MB/s usually
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16:26:27 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean overnight
16:26:45 <Vorpal> elliott, well. I don't think is allowed, also no beds
16:26:57 <elliott> bah
16:26:59 <elliott> who needs beds
16:27:03 <elliott> when you have bandwidth
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16:27:11 <Vorpal> hm
16:27:14 <Gregor> What sort of university disallows being there at night ...
16:27:23 <Vorpal> Gregor, "sleeping there at night"
16:27:32 <Gregor> People sleep in LWSN during the day :P
16:28:28 <Sgeo> How does localtime know whether or not it's in scalar context?!
16:28:47 <elliott> Sgeo: Uhh, everything can do stuff like that IIRC
16:28:52 <Vorpal> anyway their wlan is only good in some spots. I mean, I sat at more or less the optimum place when I got 6 MiB/s
16:29:04 <Sgeo> elliott, how do I make my own function that does stuff like that?
16:29:10 <elliott> I don't know.
16:29:16 <elliott> And I don't care one bit.
16:29:19 <Vorpal> clear path to antenna, but not to close to it
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16:29:38 <elliott> Gregor: Gah, I am determined to run random binary files in putebysh to find one that does stuff.
16:29:48 <elliott> WHOA
16:29:52 <elliott> pycon_2010_tutorial.pdf is TRIPPY
16:29:55 <elliott> graphics AND sound
16:30:54 <elliott> As is cweb.zip
16:31:07 * Vorpal prods frama-c. Interesting, but so far nothing useful out of it. And half the options seem to be cryptic and well, there might be documentation for them somewhere, but I have no clue where that somewhere is
16:31:16 <elliott> ksplice-uptrack.deb flashes screen yellow but then nothing
16:31:40 <Vorpal> elliott, why should it flash screen
16:31:47 <elliott> Vorpal: in bytepusher
16:32:00 <Vorpal> eh
16:32:04 <elliott> Gregor: pldi275-richards.pdf does nothing interesting; please rectify this
16:32:08 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr running random executables
16:32:15 <Vorpal> oh
16:32:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I was trying to think of how bytepusher (esolang iirc) was related to ksplice
16:32:42 <Gregor> `echo BLAR
16:32:43 <HackEgo> BLAR
16:32:52 <elliott> Vorpal: it's an OISC-based computer
16:33:01 <elliott> oh, the yellow flash thing *may* be part of the implementation
16:33:03 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, now port linux to it, then ksplice
16:33:04 <elliott> hey /dev/urandom works as a program
16:33:12 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:33:14 <Vorpal> elliott, how is that surprising?
16:33:15 <elliott> although it takes a while to get enough data to do something
16:33:17 <elliott> Vorpal: i mean
16:33:19 <Vorpal> err
16:33:23 <elliott> it puts random shit on the screen and buzzes :)
16:33:25 <Vorpal> elliott, /dev/urandom is quite fast.
16:33:33 <elliott> if the buzzing is in ta fixed memory location though i guess that's not too surprising
16:33:35 <Vorpal> it is /dev/random that is slow
16:33:36 <elliott> Vorpal: but, like, does things
16:34:08 <elliott> *a
16:34:10 <elliott> not ta
16:34:45 <elliott> debian-testing-i386-netinst.iso is the shit
16:34:50 <elliott> even though it just sits there
16:35:49 <elliott> $ sudo ./putebysh /dev/mem
16:35:58 <Vorpal> hm
16:36:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I hope you run a recent kernel
16:36:21 <elliott> Vorpal: uh, ubuntu-recent.
16:36:22 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, does it modify the file?
16:36:24 <elliott> no.
16:36:28 <Vorpal> phew
16:36:35 <elliott> i'm not a moron
16:36:44 <elliott> i haven't even read the source so maybe it edits it, but i doubt it :P
16:37:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect you won't crash then. The program will get an error trying to read anything except a few pages such as BIOS stuff and PCI config space
16:37:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but hm, some of that could be sensitive to incorrect reads
16:37:26 <elliott> if reading a file could crash your system i'd be worried.
16:37:59 <Sgeo> UNIX permissions are a WTF
16:38:07 <elliott> Sgeo: you're a WTF.
16:38:10 <Vorpal> elliott, ITYM "if reading memory mapped registers that are only supposed to be written could fuck up said hardware, I wouldn't be surprised at all"
16:38:20 <Sgeo> If you don't have +x access on a directory, you can't read ANY files in that directory?
16:38:27 <elliott> Vorpal: then they shouldn't be exposed as a file :p
16:38:33 <Sgeo> Even given a known name?
16:38:36 <Vorpal> elliott, well, /dev/mem is your memory
16:38:37 <Sgeo> Or is that an Apache thing?
16:38:43 <elliott> that's an apache thing.
16:38:45 <Vorpal> elliott, IMO that file shouldn't exist
16:38:50 <Sgeo> Ah
16:39:00 <elliott> Vorpal: bet plan 9 gets it right >:D
16:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott, there should be some other way for graphics drivers and such to safely map in the video memory, but that would be it
16:39:32 <Vorpal> as for reading PCI config space, the kernel should expose an API for that
16:39:58 <Vorpal> not sure about the bios stuff. It would make dosemu and such useless
16:43:29 -!- sftp has joined.
16:45:26 <Sgeo> I am beginning to hate everyone in this class
16:46:31 <elliott> # xlogout - logs user out of its X session
16:46:34 <elliott> # Linux specific since uses /proc
16:46:41 <elliott> least reassuring start to a broken shell script ever
16:47:44 <Sgeo> "I've never mastered CGI.pm... I'd rather do the HTML _in_ HTML"
16:48:00 <elliott> Sgeo: CGI.pm has a bunch of functions to generate HTML markup
16:48:01 <elliott> their use is questionable.
16:48:06 <elliott> although the way stated is stupid.
16:48:09 <elliott> *reason
16:48:11 <elliott> whatever
16:48:46 <ais523_> elliott: CGI.pm is effectively HTML coded in sexps rather than SGML
16:49:03 <elliott> right, except the sexps are insane.
16:49:06 <Sgeo> o.O
16:49:15 <Sgeo> So she wasn't being totally batshit insane
16:51:06 <Vorpal> err, why sexps? I mean if it was lisp that would have been a reasonable choice of representation
16:51:12 <Vorpal> but for a perl program, err
16:51:34 <elliott> ais523_: please explain to Vorpal...
16:51:38 <ais523_> it's not syntactically sexps
16:51:41 <ais523_> just, effectively sexps
16:51:45 <Vorpal> ais523_, *ouch*
16:52:26 <ais523_> it looks like this: html(head(title("The Hello World Web Page")).body(p("Hello, world!")))
16:52:43 <Vorpal> elliott, any opinions on eiffel (the programming language)?
16:53:11 <elliott> ouch? it's just html without </>
16:53:13 <Sgeo> I tried Eiffel once
16:53:13 <Vorpal> ais523_, sexps with first parameter before the parenthesis? :D
16:53:26 <ais523_> Vorpal: it's still a sexp, effectively
16:53:27 <Vorpal> err
16:53:34 <elliott> Vorpal: bertrand meyer is excellent. eiffel is basically his perfect design. but-
16:53:34 <ais523_> I don't see why the actual syntax matters
16:53:35 <Vorpal> (not parameter, element)
16:53:36 <elliott> don't know if i'd use it
16:53:37 <elliott> *--
16:53:44 <Vorpal> elliott, why not?
16:53:47 <Vorpal> ais523_, true
16:53:56 <ais523_> syntax is the least important part of a programming language
16:53:58 <ais523_> other than Python
16:53:59 <elliott> Vorpal: i refuse to answer such an open-ended, useless question
16:54:09 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
16:54:14 <Vorpal> ais523_, what about haskell then (if you are referring to the indention stuff)
16:54:19 <ais523_> elliott: I knew that was going to be `addquoted
16:54:29 <Vorpal> elliott, okay...
16:54:42 <elliott> Vorpal: ask a better question, get a better answer
16:54:45 <ais523_> Vorpal: it was more a reference to flamewars about Python indentation-sensitivity than actual language design
16:54:55 <elliott> HackEgooooo
16:54:56 <ais523_> Haskell doesn't inspire those levels of fury on both sides
16:55:27 <Sgeo> Python's indentation sensitivity got me in a good habit of being anal about indentation
16:55:56 <Vorpal> ais523_, good point
16:56:17 <Sgeo> Although, I once elected to leave a if(1) in rather than remove it and closing brace and unindent
16:56:51 <Vorpal> if(1)? why on earth.
16:57:28 <Sgeo> It used to have a real condition in there
16:57:38 <Sgeo> Changed it to not check for anyting
16:57:40 <HackEgo> No output.
16:57:48 <Sgeo> But was too lazy to deal with indentation and the closing brace
16:57:51 <Vorpal> what
16:57:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I think addquote failed
16:58:05 <Vorpal> elliott, but better check first
16:58:07 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
16:58:08 <Vorpal> `help
16:58:30 <Vorpal> GREGOR!
16:58:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is causing this
16:59:00 <elliott> AAAAAAAAAAAH GOD PANIC
16:59:06 <elliott> *EGOSS
16:59:15 <Vorpal> INDEED!
16:59:21 <ais523_> !help
16:59:28 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, no issue. We still have fungot
16:59:28 <fungot> Vorpal: what? orwell went down?) a system similar in spirit to scheme, where the actual srfi-9 compatible define-record-type is defined appropriately, then "
16:59:48 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:59:51 <Vorpal> elliott, it can generate a near infinite number of different quotes
17:00:02 <Sgeo> Without out Geos? Our Sgeos?
17:00:11 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:00:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, <elliott> *EGOSS
17:00:15 <HackEgo> No output.
17:00:16 <ais523_> I wonder if something is wrong with Gregor's server? his bots are still running, but sometimes take ages to respond for no apparent reason
17:00:26 <Vorpal> elliott, check before readding again
17:00:33 <ais523_> `quote
17:00:54 <HackEgo> 126|<Warrigal> Ah, vulva. <Warrigal> What is that, anyway?
17:01:35 <ais523_> `quote 233
17:01:44 <ais523_> I'm trying to remember the most recently added quote number
17:02:24 <Vorpal> <ais523_> I wonder if something is wrong with Gregor's server? his bots are still running, but sometimes take ages to respond for no apparent reason <-- my guess is that the xen host is badly managed, too many vms on the server
17:02:35 <Vorpal> if it is a cheap one this is almost certainly the case
17:02:44 <Sgeo> I should redo the thingy I made once
17:02:45 <HackEgo> 233|<Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
17:02:50 <Sgeo> Wait, all that's on the dead HD
17:03:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, didn't you rescue that?
17:03:08 <ais523_> `quote 234
17:03:09 <Sgeo> Vorpal, not uet
17:03:11 <Sgeo> yet
17:03:11 <HackEgo> 234|<Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
17:03:17 <Sgeo> Still need that external mount
17:03:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, fucking damn idiot
17:03:19 <ais523_> `quote 235
17:03:20 <HackEgo> 235|<yorick> I could also send my ferrari in for repair
17:03:23 <Vorpal> well okay
17:03:24 <ais523_> `quote 236
17:03:26 <HackEgo> 236|<Vorpal> ais523, what is "MS Publisher"? <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you don't want to know. <ais523> Vorpal: be glad that you don't know the answer <alise> Vorpal: "horrible"
17:03:28 <ais523_> `quote 237
17:03:30 <HackEgo> 237|<alise> i like to imagine their mangled limbs.
17:03:34 <ais523_> `quote 238
17:03:37 <HackEgo> 238|<calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
17:03:37 <Vorpal> ais523_, suggestion: binary search
17:03:38 <ais523_> it's getting pretty recent now
17:03:42 <Sgeo> Vorpal, you talk to my dad to convince him of the urgency
17:03:44 <Vorpal> ais523_, instead of linear search
17:03:44 <ais523_> meh, it's fun to read the quotes
17:03:48 <ais523_> `quote 239
17:03:49 <HackEgo> 239|<catseye> i like the feeling of freedom you get driving a bus
17:03:53 <ais523_> `quote 240
17:03:54 <HackEgo> 240|<oklopol> comex: what? <oklopol> *vorpal <oklopol> comex: hi, tab-complete completed c to comex instead of Vorpal, dunno why
17:03:56 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you need to do that yourself
17:03:58 <ais523_> `quote 241
17:03:59 <HackEgo> 241|<fungot> Vorpal: you can't plant spiders, duh!
17:04:03 <ais523_> `quote 242
17:04:04 <HackEgo> 242|<fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
17:04:09 <ais523_> `quote 243
17:04:11 <HackEgo> 243|<fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
17:04:13 <ais523_> `quote 244
17:04:15 <HackEgo> 244|<zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
17:04:17 <Vorpal> ais523_, stop turning into elliott!
17:04:20 <ais523_> who's been adding all these quotes recently?
17:04:22 <ais523_> `quote 245
17:04:23 <HackEgo> 245|<fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task.
17:04:26 <ais523_> `quote 246
17:04:28 <HackEgo> No output.
17:04:40 <ais523_> elliott: try that `addquote again?
17:04:48 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
17:04:50 <Sgeo> His response will be along the lines of "The data can't degrade. Who told you that it can? Random people on the Internet? You believe everything you read on the Internet?"
17:04:50 <HackEgo> 246|<ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
17:05:34 <ais523_> to be fair, a dead HD will not degrade very fast if you disconnect it from everything, don't power it on, and in the special case of a crashed head, don't move it around much
17:06:54 <ais523_> I /have/ had an HD degrade over me, but it was over a period of years
17:06:58 <Sgeo> Ah, ok
17:07:04 <ais523_> and was still mostly working, it had just accumulated enough bitflips that it failed to boot Windows
17:07:19 <ais523_> (come to think of it, that only needs one bitflip, if it's in the right location)
17:07:26 <elliott> <Vorpal> <ais523_> I wonder if something is wrong with Gregor's server? his bots are still running, but sometimes take ages to respond for no apparent reason <-- my guess is that the xen host is badly managed, too many vms on the server
17:07:27 <elliott> dude, it's prgmr
17:07:33 <elliott> they're very competent
17:07:45 <elliott> they have a blog detailing all the sysadmin stuff
17:07:54 <elliott> they do ipv6, etc.
17:08:11 <elliott> Vorpal: apparently it's actually a bug in the bot code
17:08:13 <elliott> iirc
17:08:22 <Sgeo> So if it waits a few more weeks, I'm not screwed?
17:08:30 <ais523_> Sgeo: as long as it's powered off, probably not
17:08:36 <elliott> <Sgeo> His response will be along the lines of "The data can't degrade. Who told you that it can? Random people on the Internet? You believe everything you read on the Internet?"
17:08:38 <ais523_> do you not have backups, btw?
17:08:39 <elliott> Who told you that it can?
17:08:40 <elliott> Your father?
17:08:44 <elliott> You believe everything your father says?
17:09:07 <ais523_> actually, I find that nowadays I'm rarely doing anything important enough to need backing up :(
17:09:10 <elliott> Frankly, everything you have said that he has said has been idiotic bullshit from someone who clearly thinks their expanse of knowledge is far more vast than it actually is.
17:09:16 <elliott> ais523_: that's basically why i don't back up :D
17:09:17 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:09:33 <elliott> i wiped my ~/Code to transfer over to the new install when clean-installing Ubuntu 10.10
17:09:37 <elliott> didn't feel feel a pang!
17:09:38 <ais523_> perhaps someday I should actually back everything up in a single location
17:09:40 <elliott> *even feel
17:09:52 <ais523_> rather than memorising individually where each different actually important thing is backed up
17:12:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:14:16 <Sgeo> Bye for now all
17:14:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:16:36 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
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17:34:17 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:34:18 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
17:34:18 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:35:00 <Gregor> Zuu: I KNOW YOUR REAL HOSTNAME
17:35:03 <Gregor> Your masking cannot fool me!
17:36:23 <Zuu> :)
17:36:30 * Zuu cuddles Gregor ^^
17:49:59 <elliott> I think Zuu is just a secret paedophile hoping he'll come across someone underage.
17:50:03 <elliott> SCIENCE THEORIES
17:50:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:50:23 <Zuu> Hahaha
17:52:59 <Zuu> You're just envious because you arent underage :P
17:53:10 -!- tombom has joined.
17:59:26 <Gregor> elliott is.
17:59:34 <Gregor> I'm not! I can drink and fuck and EVERYTHING!
17:59:41 <elliott> Simultaneously!
17:59:45 <elliott> Zuu: I am sort of entirely underage.
17:59:49 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:59:51 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:00:20 <elliott> Although probably less so over here than wherever you are.
18:00:31 <Gregor> Zuu is Zulu.
18:00:44 <Gregor> There are no legal age limits there.
18:06:47 -!- wareya has joined.
18:06:58 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..).
18:07:08 * Zuu cuddles elliott then :)
18:07:22 <elliott> pretty sure that's technically illegal over here!
18:07:26 <elliott> (uzbekistan)
18:07:34 <Zuu> Cuddling is illegal?
18:07:43 <Zuu> ohnoes!
18:09:17 <Zuu> Anyways, my cuddles are more like, cuddling a pet cuddles, than the kind of cuddling you do in bed :)
18:09:36 <elliott> Zuu: I don't think the UK government cares much.
18:10:07 <Zuu> Haha
18:10:41 <Zuu> To be frank, i couldnt care less what the UK government cares about
18:12:56 * Zuu will continue cuddling people of any age as he pleases, regardless of how people decide to misunderstand it :)
18:13:39 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
18:13:41 <Zuu> if you dont like it, elliott, you're free to use your ignore feature ;)
18:13:56 <elliott> Zuu: err, i wasn't being serious...
18:14:10 <Zuu> i was
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18:14:48 <elliott> Gregor: so is Opus 13 permanently two-movemented now?
18:15:02 <Gregor> elliott: Yes
18:15:15 <elliott> Gregor: but now "in Three" is not ... amusing?
18:15:26 <Gregor> Nope :P
18:16:16 <Gregor> But anyway, I've decided I desperately need to write something NOT in a time signature which is a multiple of three.
18:19:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: apparently it's actually a bug in the bot code <-- well, it seems like it would be in the interest of everyone that it got debugged then, since it is raping his server
18:19:14 <elliott> no it isn't
18:19:16 <elliott> afaik
18:19:17 <elliott> it just dies
18:19:18 <elliott> Gregor: no?
18:19:29 <elliott> Gregor: Also, someone has to say 4/4 now so that you can shoot them.
18:19:39 <Gregor> 4/4 would be fine at this point.
18:19:42 <Gregor> Nothing wrong with 4/4.
18:19:47 <Vorpal> elliott, err, well it was slooow above, and the webview of the hg repo timed out
18:19:51 <Gregor> For me, 4/4 would be an unusual turn from the norm :P
18:20:07 <Gregor> Vorpal: No, it's a disk access issue.
18:20:17 <Gregor> Vorpal: prgmr's disk is performing at ~200KB/s
18:20:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm, caused by?
18:20:21 <Gregor> prgmr
18:20:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, ouch. How sucky
18:20:28 <Gregor> (Or some other client or who knows what)
18:20:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, what does "4/4" refer to in this context btw?
18:20:42 <Gregor> Vorpal: Time signature.
18:20:47 <Vorpal> ah
18:20:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, filed a ticket I hope?
18:20:55 <Gregor> Naturalismo.
18:21:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, I prefer 0/0.
18:21:18 <Gregor> So you just hate music then.
18:22:10 <Gregor> Incidentally, the denominator has to be a solution to 2^n where n is an integer for a time signature to be definable.
18:22:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, no, I just like things that looks like division by zero
18:22:58 <elliott> Gregor: Couldn't you just say "it has to be a power of two"?
18:23:03 <elliott> And avoid saying it... really... really stupidly?
18:23:12 <elliott> Er, wait.
18:23:16 <Vorpal> elliott, err?
18:23:21 <elliott> Never mind :P
18:23:27 <elliott> I just read Gregor's line weirdly.
18:23:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean it would have to be a solution to log_2 (power of two) I think
18:23:45 <Vorpal> unless I got that backwards
18:23:47 <elliott> right
18:23:52 <elliott> well uh
18:23:54 <elliott> anyway whatever
18:24:20 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, Gregor should have expressed it in terms of logarithms yes
18:24:29 <elliott> I agree less new.
18:24:30 <elliott> *now.
18:24:37 <Vorpal> why?
18:24:51 <elliott> Gregor: Write something in free time. And proper free time, not silly "I'm going to pretend that you can't tell what time signature this is written in" time.
18:24:57 <elliott> Free time is awesome.
18:24:57 <Gregor> X_X
18:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, midi doesn't inherently have time signatures right?
18:25:28 <elliott> Gregor: WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST FREE TIME
18:25:47 <Gregor> Vorpal: SMF files do, MIDI signaling doesn't.
18:25:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh
18:26:12 <elliott> Gregor: HUH?
18:26:19 <Gregor> Anyway, my last four works have been six (when not seven), twelve (when not four), three (when not two) and three (when not four).
18:26:31 <Gregor> I need some non-multiple-of-three time signatures.
18:26:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, 4/4?
18:26:46 <Vorpal> elliott, not a multiple of 3 ;P
18:26:47 <Vorpal> err
18:26:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, ^
18:26:52 <Vorpal> weird typo
18:26:57 <elliott> I said that like...
18:26:59 <elliott> FIve minutes ago.
18:26:59 <Gregor> 4/4, for me, would be new and unusual!
18:27:06 <Gregor> Yup :P
18:27:08 <elliott> Gregor: WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST FREE TIME
18:27:12 <Vorpal> Gregor, 2/3?
18:27:16 <Gregor> elliott: The fact that it's a lie.
18:27:26 <elliott> Gregor: In most cases, sure...
18:27:35 <elliott> Gregor: There are works in true free time.
18:27:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp, real free time probably
18:27:47 <Vorpal> well, pseduo-free
18:27:51 <Gregor> X-D
18:27:52 <Vorpal> since that is a PRNG
18:27:57 <Gregor> WE CAN NEVER TRULY BE FREE
18:28:01 <Gregor> (time)
18:28:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, with a hw random generator?
18:28:08 <elliott> Gregor: I don't see what's a lie about free time.
18:28:22 <elliott> Well... I suppose you could say that it changes time signature constantly instead, but that's beyond ridiculous.
18:29:16 <Gregor> Ding ding ding!
18:29:38 <elliott> Gregor: That's totally a huge technicality though, if no time signature is maintained long enough for it to express its structure in any way at all..
18:29:40 <elliott> *all...
18:30:13 * Vorpal has an urge to formally prove cfunge...
18:30:24 <elliott> Vorpal: with /that/ code?
18:30:25 <elliott> hahahaha
18:30:45 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah unlikely, it needs to be written with formal proving in mind for it to be feasible really
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18:36:43 <elliott> Gregor: Okay then, an actually irrational timesignature.
18:36:51 <elliott> "at least one such piece with a truly irrational signature already exists: one of Conlon Nancarrow's "Studies for Player Piano" contains a canon where one part is augmented in the ratio sqrt(42):1"
18:49:00 <Zuu> What is all this 'time' you guys are talking about?
18:51:33 <elliott> Zuu: Uhh, time signatures?
18:51:35 <elliott> hi cpressey
18:52:02 <Zuu> Time signatures?
18:52:24 <cpressey> they're signatures, like on your checks, but in the fabric of time
18:52:35 <olsner> elliott: have you released the kitten installation iso yet?
18:52:42 <elliott> olsner: har har.
18:52:48 <elliott> Zuu: ...do you listen to music?
18:53:23 <Zuu> ok, so time signatures on samples of music
18:53:35 * Zuu 's curiosity has been fed
18:53:39 <elliott> Zuu: ...samples?
18:53:41 <elliott> What?
18:54:06 <olsner> oh, that kind of time signature! so a PRNG would be n/n in its cycle length or something like that?
18:54:37 <elliott> olsner: ok, *you're* definitely joking surely
18:54:42 <elliott> not sure about zuu
18:55:34 <Zuu> I just curious what you guys were talking about... not much joking in that
18:55:35 <olsner> elliott: nope, not so much... maybe I'm misunderstanding something, and I'm definitely missing out on some definitions
18:55:48 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature
18:55:50 <elliott> how does anyone not know this?
18:56:57 -!- quintopia has joined.
18:57:23 <Vorpal> elliott, from frama-c help output:
18:57:25 <Vorpal> -no-type undocumented but disable some features
18:57:28 <Vorpal> XD
18:57:32 <elliott> Vorpal: ITT: Academics
18:58:00 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, well, I just find it funny that something is in effect documented as being undocumented
19:02:23 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:06:03 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:07:13 <Gregor> MORP
19:10:24 -!- Zuu has joined.
19:10:25 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
19:10:25 -!- Zuu has joined.
19:10:42 <elliott> Sometimes it is convenient to be able to have variable variable names. That is, a variable name which can be set and used dynamically. A normal variable is set with a statement such as: ...
19:10:44 <elliott> A variable variable takes the value of a variable and treats that as the name of a variable. In the above example, hello, can be used as the name of a variable by using two dollar signs. i.e. ...
19:10:58 <elliott> <Vikings> Variable, variable, variable, variable, ...
19:12:01 <Gregor> eggs and variable.
19:14:24 <Vorpal> elliott, this is C pointers if you decide that the name of variables are their memory addresses
19:14:54 <quintopia> ? indirection.
19:15:03 <quintopia> indirection is a p cool dude
19:15:06 <elliott> PHP programmers: "I'm a 3 $ programmer."
19:15:12 <elliott> quintopia: not when it's based on variable names...
19:15:16 <elliott> $foo = 3;
19:15:19 <elliott> $bar = "fo";
19:15:24 <elliott> $quux = $bar . "o";
19:15:29 <elliott> echo $$quux;
19:15:30 <elliott> prints 3
19:15:33 <elliott> this is horrific
19:15:44 <quintopia> if by horrific you mean awesome
19:15:53 <quintopia> but the $ syntax is terrible for it
19:16:01 <quintopia> there should be a dedicated indirection character
19:16:01 * elliott makes mental note to never let quintopia anything
19:16:03 <Vorpal> elliott, it is. But your address space is now not memory locations. It is instead the variable name phase space
19:16:14 <elliott> Vorpal: i was responding to quintopia :p
19:16:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and I was pointing out that by some quite reasonable definitions they *are* pointers. Just not the C type of pointers
19:16:48 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, but
19:16:50 <elliott> they're still terrible.
19:16:51 <quintopia> being a fan of esoterics, you'd have to expect i'd love strange things like that.
19:16:55 <Vorpal> elliott, agreed
19:17:05 <Vorpal> elliott, useful in bash though
19:17:06 <elliott> quintopia: most of us can sieve out the good parts of an esoteric mind from the silly parts when working on non-esoteric stuff.
19:17:12 <elliott> (see e.g. ais523)
19:17:21 <Vorpal> elliott, you know, for the "horrible return trick"
19:17:28 <elliott> Vorpal: NO NO NO NONOIODNONONONONON
19:17:31 <elliott> O
19:17:46 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, nothing wrong with some fun hacks
19:18:03 <Vorpal> elliott, of course you shouldn't use that in something you intend to maintain
19:18:04 <Gregor> I once had a language where variables could be indirected like ${$foo}
19:18:04 <Gregor> Or even ${abc$foo}
19:18:04 <Vorpal> and so on
19:18:05 <elliott> bring envbot in here for the lulz
19:18:14 <elliott> Gregor: i.e. php
19:18:18 <elliott> pretty sure ${$foo.'bar'} is valid
19:18:21 <elliott> if not, well, just one thing away
19:18:30 <elliott> in fact, ${"abc$foo"} *may* even be valid
19:18:31 <elliott> not sure
19:18:41 <elliott> maybe not
19:19:00 <quintopia> elliot: they are not all that silly when used implemented and used correctly. i mean, you don't think its silly to allow a user to specify a filename string at which you save a file, do you? but that's the same damn thing.
19:19:07 <quintopia> it's just implemented better
19:19:42 <Vorpal> quintopia, what
19:19:53 <Vorpal> very droll
19:21:06 <quintopia> Vorpal: my first major programming platform was the TI-89, where variables and files are indistinguishable, and indirection was the actual literal way to save a file at a user specified location
19:21:49 <elliott> Vorpal: he's not joking.
19:21:49 <quintopia> (i should say "global variables" and files are indistinguishable, sincee local variables didn't get saved to ram)
19:23:31 <Vorpal> quintopia, bah, you were lucky, on TI-83+ we didn't even have local variables. Nor files. At most the assembler programmers had "program variables", the TI-BAISC programmers just had the global variables.
19:23:50 <quintopia> Vorpal: i started on the TI-82. i know your pain.
19:24:20 <Vorpal> quintopia, well I replaced the batteries in my TI-83+ twice. TI-89 batteries doesn't last nearly as long
19:24:38 <Vorpal> quintopia, also, TI-83+ is not quite as bad as TI-82
19:25:27 <quintopia> the low #'d TIs didn't even have lowercase alphabet. the only way to display strings with lowercase letters was by repeatedly displaying system function names in the right places until what was left was what you wanted
19:25:51 <elliott> :D
19:25:58 <elliott> was that possible for all words?
19:25:58 <quintopia> I recall a version of Mastermind, that display Mastermind that way. It started with "Histogram" (a built-in) to get the "st"
19:26:11 <Gregor> I think I just vomited up some blood.
19:26:19 <elliott> Gregor is disgusted with free time.
19:26:27 <Gregor> X-D
19:26:38 <Vorpal> quintopia, TI-83+ does, but you can't access it normally. You either need to use some asm stuff, or you need to use a language pack and use the "enter-non-English-letter-menu" where you can enter lower case variants of all
19:26:49 <Vorpal> elliott, hmmm would be nice with a formally verified libc
19:27:30 <quintopia> Vorpal: yeah, that's basically the same thing. it has them, but not available through normal means.
19:28:02 <Vorpal> quintopia, you don't need to go through those built in names though
19:28:12 <Vorpal> just do the magic asm, then pressing alpha twice gets you lower case
19:28:49 <quintopia> ah. not so bad.
19:29:01 <Vorpal> quintopia, or write the program in that awful win3.1-ish application on the computer, and then download it
19:29:02 <quintopia> wonder if anyone made a magic asm for 82
19:29:16 <quintopia> Vorpal: oh god.
19:29:21 * Vorpal looks around for his black link cable
19:29:39 <Vorpal> well black-link I believe the name is actually
19:29:40 <quintopia> my 89 is dead and has been for a very long time.
19:29:46 <Vorpal> they called it that... because it is black
19:29:55 <quintopia> i have one somewhere
19:29:57 <Vorpal> quintopia, my TI-83+ is still alive and kicking
19:30:18 <quintopia> as well as the usb one...clear-link lol?
19:30:31 <Vorpal> quintopia, there was a third one iirc
19:30:37 <quintopia> gray-link
19:30:39 <Vorpal> and I don't have the usb one
19:30:46 <Vorpal> quintopia, which one was gray-link?
19:31:01 <quintopia> i got the usb one as a prize from a coding contest TI held, along with a red cover
19:31:09 <quintopia> the gray one
19:31:25 <Vorpal> quintopia, yeah but what connector...
19:31:44 <quintopia> oh probably serial
19:31:53 <Vorpal> quintopia, that is black-link?
19:31:56 <Vorpal> (serial I mean)
19:32:16 <quintopia> yeah
19:32:24 <quintopia> so was gray i think
19:32:30 <quintopia> but it was slower or something
19:33:52 <Vorpal> mhm
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19:40:55 <cpressey> i can mention something exists but that hardly counts as documentation
19:41:12 <pikhq> Oh, would you look at that. A California charity that is offering to pay drug addicts to be sterilised.
19:41:25 <pikhq> Did someone say "lack of informed consent"?
19:42:30 <quintopia> if they're not high *at the time*, then it can be informed consent, right?
19:42:40 <elliott> pikhq: old
19:42:59 <elliott> pikhq: "founded and formerly known as Children Requiring a Caring Kommunity [sic] or C.R.A.C.K."
19:43:01 <quintopia> also, some sterilization procedures are reversible, so if they clean themselves up, they have a way out
19:43:03 <elliott> they're just crazy.
19:43:08 <elliott> quintopia: these ones aren't.
19:43:17 <elliott> pikhq: they stop random people in the street asking them if they're addicts, suppsoedly
19:43:18 <elliott> *supposedly
19:43:25 <quintopia> weird
19:43:30 <elliott> tl;dr batshit insane people.
19:43:49 <pikhq> elliott: Project Prevention, and they're running around in the UK *right now*.
19:43:59 <elliott> i know
19:44:00 <elliott> pikhq: "founded and formerly known as Children Requiring a Caring Kommunity [sic] or C.R.A.C.K."
19:44:04 <pikhq> Oh.
19:44:04 <elliott> that says most of it :)
19:44:08 <pikhq> Okay then.
19:44:39 <elliott> pikhq: the founder is a drug addict with a child iirc
19:44:40 <elliott> SO YEAH LOL
19:44:47 <elliott> (and the child (20 now) supports the organisation... go figure)
19:45:02 <elliott> "For her, doing nothing was not an option after her own firsthand experience raising four substance-exposed children."
19:45:02 <pikhq> quintopia: Someone who is heavily addicted to a drug like that is suffering from a form of mental illness. They cannot reasonably be said to be making informed decisions when they are being *handed drug money* in exchange for something.
19:45:04 <elliott> four! jesus.
19:45:22 <pikhq> "Hey, I'll give you some crack if you let me take out your kidney." "Okay!"
19:45:42 <elliott> "I am sorry to inform you that I relapsed shortly after I graduated on May 1st. I'm back in treatment and doing very well. I apologize for not keeping in touch for I feel as though we've known one another in a different space and time. You are truly an inspiration to me, and I feel that your love knows no boundaries. Sandra, Los Angeles"
19:45:47 <elliott> that's written to project prevention by someone sterilised by them
19:45:50 <elliott> all i can say is:
19:45:50 <elliott> wut.
19:46:20 <elliott> yeah, it's just ... no fuck that.
19:47:01 <pikhq> It's also a bit of a problem, IMO, to offer to pay people in general to be sterilised. This essentially sets up a scenario wherein only those who don't want for money or who are absolutely appaled by the prospect of sterilisation can reproduce.
19:47:11 <pikhq> Which... Is not exactly healthy for society.
19:47:19 <quintopia> pikhq: nor can they be making informed decisions when they get pregnant having sex for drugs. of two possibilities violating informed consent, which has the better outcome?
19:47:55 <elliott> i don't really see much of a point in getting sterilised
19:48:26 <pikhq> quintopia: The one where we stop treating drug addiction as some horrible criminal scourage but as a mental health issue?\
19:48:34 <pikhq> Scourge.
19:48:38 <pikhq> Not scourage.
19:48:39 <elliott> i wonder if they do it to stoners too
19:48:41 <elliott> that would be amusing
19:48:55 <Gregor> <pikhq> Oh, would you look at that. A California charity that is offering to pay drug addicts to be sterilised.
19:49:00 <Gregor> Hahaha this is legal eugenics.
19:49:02 <elliott> "Dude, do you wanna get like, STERILISED, man?"
19:49:04 <Gregor> That makes me smile deep down inside.
19:49:13 <quintopia> even treating it as a mental health issue, how do you get these people to submit to proper treatment?
19:49:32 <quintopia> would it be okay to pay them to get rehabbed?
19:49:48 <elliott> quintopia: are you attempting a *reverse slippery slope* argument?
19:49:56 <elliott> "This is okay, so this crazy form of that is okay too."
19:50:07 <quintopia> er, no
19:50:17 <quintopia> that was a legitimate probing of pikhq's mindset
19:50:41 <elliott> i have no issue with paying people to go into rehab. well not so much corporations doing it, but.
19:50:42 <pikhq> quintopia: Uh, voluntarily. Most people aren't exactly living from fix to fix because they *want* to be that way.
19:50:47 <elliott> (unless, of course, there is a better solution)
19:51:07 <elliott> pikhq: most of them also don't think they have a mental issue and can quit whenever they want
19:51:21 <elliott> but, hmm
19:51:25 <elliott> pikhq: do you guys have free rehab in the US?
19:51:30 <pikhq> elliott: HAHAHAH No.
19:51:33 <pikhq> elliott: That would be communist.
19:51:54 <elliott> Communism: They want to take away your ADDICTION.
19:51:56 <Gregor> I think they do in prisons.
19:52:02 <Gregor> As per usual, you get the best care if you kill somebody.
19:52:04 <elliott> Gregor: How to get free rehab:
19:52:17 <elliott> - TOTALLY USE SOME DRUGS MAN
19:52:19 <elliott> - Rape
19:52:22 <elliott> - Woooo
19:52:38 <elliott> You have to admire the uh, logic.
19:53:03 <quintopia> surely there are some charitable organizations offering free rehab
19:53:10 <pikhq> elliott: Also, the whole mindset here is that drug addicts are *awful people*.
19:53:15 <quintopia> doesn't crossroads do that?
19:53:18 <Gregor> If you want decent healthcare, rehab (if applicable), three square meals a day, and all the other amenities, all you have to do is kill someone in cold blood. If you're lucky, you'll get all of this for life. If you're unlucky, you'll get all of this 'til midnight, but after that you won't need any of it.
19:53:23 <elliott> quintopia: is the rehab any good? is it publicised enough? (almost certainly not for the latter)
19:53:24 <pikhq> elliott: Not victims, *awful, horrible, terrible people*.
19:53:31 <elliott> pikhq: yes, i know.
19:54:03 <elliott> pikhq: of course legalising drugs would boost the economy and cut addiction right down (since you don't have to "rely" on sleazy dealers), but you guys are too illogical for that
19:54:30 <quintopia> elliott: if it were publicized enough, they'd get more customers than they can afford to treat, which they almost certainly already do
19:54:52 <elliott> quintopia: Why not fund them with taxesOH RIGHT THAT'S COMMUNISM, taxes should go to the military.
19:55:03 <quintopia> exactly
19:55:04 <elliott> To defend the US. From Canada.
19:55:10 <elliott> OH GOD CANADA
19:55:14 <quintopia> i'm glad you understand where the line must be drawn
19:55:24 <elliott> They want to EXPORT THEIR MASS-PRODUCED COMMUNISM TO US
19:55:29 <elliott> No, wait, that's China. What?
19:55:40 <elliott> Does a Debian package's description (aptitude/apt-cache show) show what virtual packages it provides?
19:55:49 <elliott> I'm wondering if Debian has one for a "graphical apt frontend". Probably not.
19:55:49 <pikhq> elliott: Just decriminalising it makes addiction rates go way the hell down.
19:55:53 <quintopia> yeah, all joking aside, China actually does suck.
19:56:06 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but it's even better to put sleazy dealers out of business.
19:56:11 <pikhq> Damned straight.
19:56:25 <elliott> quintopia: Yeah. North Korea sucks more but they don't actually participate in the rest of the world at all so it's less of a worry.
19:56:31 <elliott> I lol'd at the recent advocacy of democracy.
19:56:54 <elliott> The Communist Party of China: We're all about communism^Wpower^Wdemocratic capitalism!
19:57:07 <pikhq> elliott: There's actually an ideological split in the Communist Party there.
19:57:23 <elliott> The Communist Party is basically three or four parties in one, isn't it...
19:57:25 <elliott> (With two major parties.)
19:57:29 <pikhq> elliott: What you saw there was the freaks who see that Europe is awesome. :P
19:57:42 <elliott> Europe is... awesome is stretching it.
19:57:42 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I think French and Japanese programmers tend to have the most curious grammars.
19:57:48 <elliott> I don't think anywhere is truly awesome.
19:57:58 <elliott> Vorpal: The German ones are a bit odd too. Although perhaps in other ways.
19:58:07 <elliott> Japanese programmers are cool though.
19:58:09 <elliott> They're all insane.
19:58:23 <elliott> Debian appears not to have packagekit. Sweeeeeeeeeet
19:58:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes German ones too sometimes. I find the French more awkward. Japanese most awkward.
19:58:38 <Vorpal> elliott, Japan in general is insane
19:58:43 <elliott> Japan is fun.
19:58:49 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
19:58:52 <Vorpal> but insane
19:59:00 <elliott> There are an awful lot of Japanese golfers, methinks.
19:59:02 <elliott> Also they all use Ruby.
19:59:04 <Vorpal> elliott, what exactly is packagekit btw?
19:59:20 <elliott> Vorpal: It's, like, a daemon-based fancy-fancy abstraction layer to a metric fuckton of package managers.
19:59:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well, they've got many legitimate reasons for being insane.
19:59:32 <elliott> Vorpal: So e.g. you have GUI package managers that work on any supported backend.
19:59:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Fedora uses PackageKit's GNOME interface as its main GUI package manager, iirc.
20:00:02 <elliott> There's even sorta-maybe-works Pacman support.
20:00:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, it handles update notification and the like too.
20:00:28 <elliott> And fancy things, like prompting to run applications after you install them and the like (http://www.packagekit.org/img/gpk-run-application.png)
20:00:31 <pikhq> They went from feudalism to democracy in a generation, democracy to militant empire in a generation, militiant empire to democracy in a generation.
20:00:42 <elliott> And, uh, basically it does a bunch of stuff.
20:00:52 <pikhq> Aaand getting about 700 years of technological development in a few decades.
20:01:15 <elliott> pikhq: I like to think they still used abacuses in the 50s.
20:01:22 <elliott> (Did they?)
20:01:41 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, in the 50s people used abacuses in the west too!
20:01:46 <elliott> Well, yes.
20:01:47 <Vorpal> well, sometimes
20:01:49 <elliott> Abacuses was a bad example.
20:01:54 <elliott> pikhq: I meant, uh, you know, bamboo and all that.
20:01:57 <elliott> Oh hell, you know what I mean.
20:02:23 <elliott> They did invent tentacle rape way before anyone thinks though! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dream_of_the_Fisherman's_Wife)
20:02:39 <pikhq> elliott: Abacuses are still in (waning) use there.
20:02:49 <Vorpal> elliott, well, slide rule was probably more common than abacuses in the 50s in the west. but yeah they were still in use
20:02:55 <Vorpal> rules*
20:03:07 <elliott> er well
20:03:09 <elliott> that's japan
20:03:10 <elliott> i meant to say
20:03:13 <elliott> "back on to the topic of japan" but
20:03:17 <elliott> sjdgg you know what i mean
20:03:23 <pikhq> elliott: Primarily because a proficient abacus user can use an abacus faster than a pocket calculator.
20:03:27 <Gregor> Oh Japan, you so screwy!
20:03:30 <Vorpal> elliott, does the website for coq timeout for you as well?
20:03:31 <elliott> pikhq: For exponentiation?
20:03:43 <elliott> Vorpal: It's ... not the fastest. It may be down.
20:03:48 <elliott> Vorpal: But sometimes it's just ... slow.
20:03:58 <pikhq> elliott: No. But think like a checkout in a small store.
20:04:08 <elliott> Heh.
20:04:17 <elliott> pikhq: omg we need to organise a yearly championship
20:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, okay. Another thing from the same second level domain loaded very fast
20:04:23 <elliott> Abacus vs. Calculator
20:04:34 <elliott> Fastest abacus and calculator users from across the globe compete to work out long sums
20:04:48 <elliott> (Basic pocket calculator, obviously.)
20:04:48 <Gregor> Sounds thrilling.
20:04:55 <elliott> The fastest wins.
20:05:07 <Gregor> How about we bring in one of these electrical "computers" too.
20:05:09 <quintopia> just for fun, we should include fast mental arithmetickers
20:05:13 <Gregor> And it can do the same calculations.
20:05:16 <Vorpal> elliott, basic pocket calculator? You mean, no command history?
20:05:28 <elliott> Vorpal: No exponentiation.
20:05:41 <elliott> http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00OBwtmiPFPpcA/Pocket-Calculator-YH-H822V-.jpg
20:05:45 <elliott> Maybe slightly more advanced.
20:05:47 <quintopia> and no command history
20:05:51 <elliott> Huh, it has square roots.
20:05:51 <quintopia> only MEM
20:05:59 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, it's also used educationally, because the visual imagery of arithmetic makes things a bit more apparent.
20:06:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm completely unable to use any calculator these days where I can't do line editing and also see the last few expressions and calculations
20:06:03 <elliott> pikhq: heh
20:06:05 <Vorpal> I just find it too awkward
20:06:14 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah yeah we know that you're functionally retarded when using inferior hardware/software
20:06:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:06:41 <Vorpal> elliott, when you used a graphing calculator for years you will end up the same
20:06:58 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't ever plan to use them for extended periods of time really.
20:07:18 <pikhq> I find it very difficult to use any calculator that's not RPN.
20:07:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, awesome :D
20:07:39 <elliott> i need to learn rpn
20:07:44 <elliott> like for actual use
20:07:49 <Vorpal> http://coq.inria.fr/: The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading.
20:07:50 <Vorpal> fuck it
20:07:52 <pikhq> Open up dc and have fun.
20:07:55 <elliott> Vorpal: you can install coq-doc
20:07:56 <elliott> or whatever
20:07:58 <elliott> locally as a package
20:08:00 <elliott> maybe in the coq package for you
20:08:03 <elliott> it's in /usr/share/doc somewhere
20:08:04 <Vorpal> elliott, I need the source, for non-ubuntu
20:08:06 <elliott> all the website that matters
20:08:11 <elliott> Vorpal: get it from debian
20:08:11 * pikhq should eat
20:08:18 <Vorpal> elliott, is that last version?
20:08:37 <quintopia> rpn is a pretty cool dude. like dijkstra. dijkstra is so cool. is he still alive?
20:08:37 <elliott> Seems not.
20:08:43 <Vorpal> elliott, there you are then
20:08:45 * elliott looks for 8.3
20:08:51 <elliott> quintopia: lol no
20:09:00 <elliott> quintopia: RIP 1930--2002
20:09:03 -!- augur has joined.
20:09:05 <quintopia> oh well
20:09:15 <elliott> Vorpal: ah wait
20:09:19 <elliott> it's in experimental!
20:09:22 <elliott> (like sid but more sid)
20:09:50 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/c/coq/coq_8.3~rc1+dfsg.orig.tar.gz
20:09:56 <Vorpal> okay thanks
20:10:02 <elliott> Vorpal: http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/non-free/c/coq-doc/coq-doc_8.2pl1.orig.tar.gz
20:10:07 <elliott> Vorpal: dunno if the docs are in the above
20:10:09 <elliott> if not they're in there
20:10:14 <Vorpal> elliott, and there was a -theorems package iirc
20:10:16 <elliott> sorry about .de., it's what packages.debian.org linked me to
20:10:21 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, it's built from the coq source package.
20:10:24 <elliott> debian just splits shit up.
20:10:25 <Vorpal> elliott, ah okay
20:10:35 <Vorpal> elliott, does it take long to build btw?
20:10:40 <elliott> Vorpal: never done it!
20:10:43 <elliott> Vorpal: have fuuuuuuun
20:10:54 <elliott> Vorpal: OCaml was invented for Coq, incidentally
20:10:58 <elliott> well
20:11:02 <Vorpal> elliott, err?
20:11:03 <elliott> dunno if OCaml or just Caml
20:11:04 <elliott> Vorpal: it was
20:11:09 <elliott> Vorpal: they needed a language to implement Coq in
20:11:19 <Vorpal> elliott, arch packages ocaml, so I don't have to compile that as well
20:11:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm just giving trivia
20:12:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm trying to install frama-c on my desktop you see. I did some experiments and it seems to be awesome indeed. One or two issues but ubuntu lucid has a rather old version, and at least one one the issues is documented as fixed in a later version
20:13:41 <Vorpal> wait a second
20:13:49 <Vorpal> $ pacman -Ss coq
20:13:49 <Vorpal> community/coq 8.3-3
20:13:49 <Vorpal> Formal proof management system.
20:13:52 <Vorpal> how could I miss that
20:13:53 <Vorpal> first time
20:14:09 <elliott> Vorpal: it'll try and download from the website.
20:14:12 <elliott> which, as you know...
20:14:18 <Vorpal> elliott, no it won't, it isn't aur
20:14:21 <elliott> oh
20:14:22 <Vorpal> elliott, it is community
20:14:25 <Vorpal> also, why is the installed size 199 MB
20:14:32 <Vorpal> well, 199.77 MB
20:14:33 <Vorpal> even
20:14:45 <Vorpal> I mean, the source package was just 3 MB or something such
20:15:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm extremely surprised that arch linux has coq
20:15:14 <elliott> Vorpal: err, why?
20:15:17 <elliott> Coq is pretty popular
20:15:30 <elliott> although admittedly i wouldn't expect the kind of morons who use arch to appreciate it >:D >_>
20:15:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I wouldn't expect most users to use it indeed. And only reason I use arch is that I find non-rolling-release *painful*
20:16:13 <Vorpal> elliott, on laptops the lack of integration is even more painful
20:16:14 <elliott> Kitten~~~~~~~~~~~
20:16:19 <Vorpal> thus ubuntu there
20:16:29 <elliott> Rolling release plus KITTEN AWESOMENESS
20:16:30 <Vorpal> but on desktops, that isn't so much of an issue
20:16:47 <Vorpal> elliott, sure. I'll wait for 1.0 though
20:16:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Rolling release.
20:16:55 <elliott> There are no versions!
20:17:07 <elliott> (Although I'll probably have a major release to be incremented when I change everything.)
20:17:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well, Install CD 1.0
20:17:08 <Vorpal> then
20:17:38 <elliott> 0.1 to start with, 0.5 when you can actually boot a graphical environment but it's unstable, 0.8 when it's rough around the edges but getting there
20:17:44 <elliott> 1 when it's something i'd recommend people install as a main distro
20:18:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, you can keep recommending kitten but until I can actually install it, it isn't a very *useful* recommendation here and now :P
20:18:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes but.
20:18:18 <elliott> I'm contractually obligated.
20:19:27 <Vorpal> err, I just noticed a strange thing on a "not-actually-ultrabay, but same kind of thing for dell"-device
20:19:59 <Vorpal> elliott, it has a mini-usb port on the side of the floppy variant. Going to take out the CD one and look for that as well
20:20:34 <Vorpal> nop, none on the CD-drive
20:21:03 <Vorpal> I'm soo going to attach that and see what happens
20:23:04 <Vorpal> seems to work
20:23:07 <elliott> Probably it'll... work.
20:23:38 <olsner> oh, how annoying, dexter ends with "stay tuned for: Weeds"
20:23:40 <Vorpal> elliott, also it seems to do "detect when floppy is inserted" which is not the usual for floppy devices in my experience
20:23:46 <olsner> but Weeds hasn't been released yet :/
20:24:56 <elliott> Gregor: By the way, Opus 13 is truly excellent, although given my... erratic musical tastes you might not consider that a complement.
20:25:04 <olsner> Vorpal: I think floppy drives have detected floppy insertion for ages, like since the 80s
20:25:16 <Gregor> elliott: Uhhh, thanks maybe?
20:25:19 <olsner> but I'm not quite sure if it's usually connected to anything
20:25:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder why they did mini-usb though since it has one of those "this device should not be operated outside a computer, and is senstive to pressure, oh and to ESD as well"-stickers
20:25:39 <elliott> Gregor: The intrepidacity is clear!
20:32:19 <Vorpal> hm I seem to be reaching a state of having lots of semi-useless spare parts, but only spare weird parts, such as floppy drives, dvd-readers, firewire cards and so on
20:32:35 <Vorpal> oh and cables of course
20:32:45 <Vorpal> about the only cable I can't find is a null-modem one
20:34:22 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, I have decided that calculators suck. Even RPN ones.
20:34:31 <quintopia> DAMN STRAIGHT
20:34:34 <elliott> :P
20:35:15 <quintopia> although, that one calculator widget i had once was p cool. it didn't suck very much.
20:35:48 <quintopia> it was just a text box. enter an expression as text, get an answer. full command history, all elementary functions implemented.
20:35:57 <quintopia> minimal is cool
20:36:25 <elliott> quintopia: i'm currently being half-inspired by one i saw that had two panes; you could type text and it'd be mirrored, but any formula would be replaced by its result on the right
20:36:50 <elliott> so "2 + 2 +" would become "4 +", then typing ".5" would make it "4.5"
20:37:04 <elliott> and you could edit it etc.
20:37:04 <quintopia> not bad
20:37:14 <elliott> but ehh, it feels like you'd have to look across too much
20:37:20 <elliott> so i'm thinking about ways to display it inline and the like
20:37:26 <elliott> also the linear typing shit is just lame
20:37:27 <quintopia> that's what i was thinking too
20:37:33 <elliott> "sqrt(" takes way too long to type :)
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20:37:44 <elliott> so i'm not sure
20:37:47 <quintopia> meh, it beats clicking a button
20:39:00 <elliott> yeah but
20:39:06 <elliott> it's imperfect, which is unacceptable! :)
20:39:14 <quintopia> how about a textbox that mirrors your infix expression in rpn on the fly?
20:39:23 <elliott> heh, why?
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20:39:31 <cpressey> < Vorpal> elliott, basic pocket calculator? You mean, no command history?
20:39:34 * cpressey blinks
20:39:47 <elliott> cpressey: silver spoon. uh - silver calculator?
20:40:11 <Gregor> I'm running Windows in a VM on Debian on a MacBook WOOH
20:40:12 <Vorpal> cpressey, what is there to blink about?
20:40:12 <quintopia> just because it'd be fun to make a realtime shunting-yard?
20:40:22 <quintopia> i don't know if it'd be useful for anything...
20:40:59 <quintopia> but like i said, Dijsktra was a p cool dude
20:41:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> "sqrt(" takes way too long to type :) <-- yes, physical calculators have certain advantages
20:41:08 <cpressey> < quintopia> rpn is a pretty cool dude. like dijkstra. dijkstra is so cool. is he still alive?
20:41:16 <cpressey> not... officially
20:41:19 <Vorpal> elliott, it is shift followed by the x² button for me
20:41:21 <elliott> <3 cpressey
20:41:31 <elliott> Vorpal: separate button on the ones i use
20:41:41 <Vorpal> elliott, well, both beats sqrt(
20:41:42 <Vorpal> :P
20:41:56 <elliott> ^.5
20:42:01 <elliott> that's, like, whole BYTES shorter
20:42:06 <quintopia> lol
20:42:15 <Vorpal> hah
20:42:29 <cpressey> < elliott> Vorpal: OCaml was invented for Coq, incidentally
20:42:31 <quintopia> elliott: re: perfect calculator. one that reads your mind and types it for you.
20:42:37 <cpressey> no EXISTING language is sufficient for MY theorem prover
20:42:40 <elliott> quintopia: yeah, yeah, shut up :P
20:42:45 <elliott> cpressey: well at the time ... probably not.
20:43:02 <elliott> cpressey: note how fast OCaml is, and the fact that Coq is *still* mighty slow sometimes
20:43:16 <augur> cpressey: your theorem prover huh
20:44:26 <elliott> augur: see the line before ...
20:44:52 <quintopia> my theorem prover can prove its own existence
20:44:52 <cpressey> elliott: it was a reference to the reason ML was invented and the pattern that seems to be established there
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20:44:56 <quintopia> and nothing else >_>
20:45:13 <augur> cpressey: D:
20:45:14 <augur> what
20:45:28 <elliott> quintopia: Probo ergo sum
20:45:37 <quintopia> i used ML once.
20:45:43 <quintopia> (that's the whole story)
20:45:57 <oerjan> `echo test
20:46:08 <oerjan> <Gregor> Hey now, the disk seems to have restored itself!
20:46:09 <cpressey> augur: ML was invented to write the LCF theorem prover in.
20:46:16 <augur> ah, yes, true
20:46:20 <Gregor> oerjan: Nope.
20:46:24 <Gregor> oerjan: I was being overly optimistic.
20:46:25 <elliott> oerjan: please correct this Latin: "Futuere ergo sum"
20:46:27 <Gregor> oerjan: It most certainly has not.
20:46:29 <elliott> thanks to Wikipedia and infamy!
20:46:31 <oerjan> yeah still slow...
20:46:41 <oerjan> elliott: what's it supposed to mean?
20:46:53 <oerjan> futuere is pretty bad, i think
20:47:06 <elliott> oh wait it seems futuere isn't actually the equivalent of "fuck"
20:47:12 <Gregor> I'm afraid I'm going to get an email back that's like "Somebody was overusing the disk, slowing everything down. YOU!"
20:47:12 <elliott> "Instead, these senses attached themselves to pēdīcāre and irrumāre, "to sodomise" and "to force fellatio", respectively"
20:47:27 <elliott> oerjan: I was going for the blatantly nonsensical "I fuck therefore I am"
20:47:27 <augur> cpressey: are you writing a theorem prover tho, or were you pretending to be the MLers?
20:47:28 <cpressey> Vorpal: I was blinking at the kinds of things you find unusable
20:47:28 <Gregor> Pedicare!
20:47:35 <quintopia> egad those macron'd characters look awful in this font
20:47:42 <cpressey> augur: not... officially :D
20:47:44 <oerjan> elliott: oh i thought you were trying to bastardize a verb based on "future"
20:47:49 <elliott> oerjan: h
20:47:51 <elliott> *ha
20:47:55 <augur> cpressey: tell me about your unofficial theorem prover
20:47:57 <cpressey> augur: no, the closest I will come is a theorem checker.
20:48:07 <elliott> oerjan: no, I was going for "I [vulgar word for sexual act] therefore I am"
20:48:24 <cpressey> augur: based on supplying a transcript of a rewriting session, is all
20:48:31 <augur> ah ok
20:48:32 <oerjan> elliott: well if the verb really is futuere, you should probably have "futuo ergo sum"
20:48:39 <elliott> oerjan: i think i give up :D
20:48:45 <elliott> ergo ego sum, i have a feeling Google screwed up that one
20:48:48 <elliott> ("i do therefore i am")
20:48:55 <elliott> "facio ergo sum" may be correct
20:48:56 <oerjan> in fact futuo would usually be the dictionary term
20:48:57 <elliott> ("i act therefore i am")
20:49:03 <elliott> but it may mean in the dramatic sense of acting
20:49:23 <elliott> assidere ergo sum
20:49:25 <oerjan> ah indeed it is
20:49:28 <HackEgo> test
20:49:35 <quintopia> cpressey: a proper theorem-checker would be a theorem prover too, so's I can skip obvious steps and still get a positive check
20:49:36 <elliott> "assess, therefore I am"
20:49:41 <elliott> defecate, Google! DEFECATE
20:49:43 <elliott> not assess!
20:50:10 <elliott> ego ergo sum -> "I am therefore I am", says Google; I think it may be entirely wrong again
20:50:15 <oerjan> elliott: well, my suggestion is "futuo ergo sum", then
20:50:31 <Gregor> Bleh, I occasionally peak at 1MB/s diskspeed X_X
20:50:32 <quintopia> i will be therefore i am?
20:50:32 <elliott> oerjan: LOL, Google's Latin -> English of "futuo ergo sum":
20:50:33 <elliott> HAVE CONNECTION WITH A WOMAN, therefore I am
20:50:39 <quintopia> lol
20:50:45 <elliott> statistical translation, it's what's for dinner
20:50:54 <oerjan> (in latin, the first person present indicative is the dictionary term, and also what you want in such a sentence)
20:50:57 <cpressey> quintopia: "prover" usually connotes "proof finder" -- I have no inclination to do that part
20:50:59 <oerjan> *+singular
20:51:06 <cpressey> if you want to prove it, you gotta find it yourself
20:51:08 <elliott> cpressey: no it doesn't
20:51:31 <cpressey> elliott: to some degree it assists you in getting the proof, otherwise what good is it? it would be useless, like mine
20:51:31 <elliott> cpressey: (there are interactive development tools but mostly they just consist of little programs that throw stuff at the problem until it sticks, and also things that generate proof steps based on input)
20:51:42 <elliott> lawl
20:51:58 <oerjan> elliott: i should reiterate that my small knowledge of latin is mainly about grammar, not vocabulary
20:52:01 <quintopia> cpressey: then you can't make a theorem-checker that meets my standards, as a theorem prover is just a search routine, and i need a search routine to find the obvious skipped steps in my proofs
20:52:22 <oerjan> afk
20:52:23 <cpressey> quintopia: true enough, but your standards were not my goal
20:52:34 <elliott> Socks killed Always the menacing blowhard. He walked up to the pavement. He Thought of The World Changes related he had created, and he had to Changes related Thosses destroyed. To these I could not take it, you are and he collapsed on a He handed. Spread the wings, he said. Spread the wings.
20:52:42 <quintopia> you don't aspire high enough!
20:53:49 <Gregor> Amen.
20:54:11 <cpressey> amen to me not aspiring high enough?
20:54:40 <elliott> i think to my Google-generated nonsense
20:54:47 <elliott> enter english into latin->english, enjoy
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20:56:32 <elliott> Coca-Cola Will me at my trial to an old woman, your pieces! In the peacetime There is only War! Pepsi lord! Tear From the trees! Only in the Salvation of can you find Peace - Peace from Pepsi and so do menacing - in the Freedom of the real Coca-Cola, it goes Where the only strain it available. Amen! 1 approve of this message, and 1 am endorsed by only one known as the Most secret things.
20:57:23 <quintopia> that's a funny way of saying "anonymous"
20:57:55 <elliott> Futur, to have sexual intercourse infinitive, perfect futur, the past participle of futūtum, Latin for "to coupled to a", this richly attested and Useful. Not only the word itself, but Also derived words as perfututum horse, nothing reasonably could be translated "totally fucked", and AFTER COPULATION, "fucked out, the exhausted from intercourse", are attested in the Classical English literature. The noun derived futūtiō, "Act of intercourse",
20:57:56 <elliott> Also out into the Classical Latin, the name of the agent and the futūtor, corresponding to the English by the twin "fucker", TURN OFF Also from Changes related word.
20:58:33 <cpressey> i like the sporadic capitalization
20:59:20 <elliott> Yeah, it's... interesting.
21:00:39 <Gregor> Latin lingua stultum usquam.
21:03:22 <elliott> does anyone actually know latin here
21:04:12 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1230779/text?key=8juqvscpwzcvbg2pozpa I made it rape a way-too-popular sonnet
21:04:46 <elliott> Oh, still has "wand'rest" in there.
21:05:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I found a paper titled "Static Analysis of the XEN Kernel using Frama-C", that seems cool
21:06:00 <elliott> http://pastie.org/pastes/1230785/text?key=s5vjy5qznqtiurzpm3zndq Better rape
21:06:03 <elliott> Vorpal: cool.
21:06:08 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact there are lots of papers mentioning this tool. hm
21:06:31 <elliott> "Rough precious stones, for the favor of the wind to move the May" wat
21:06:57 <elliott> "But for you not, summer is made void perpetual" :D
21:06:59 <elliott> Void perpetual.
21:07:08 <Vorpal> elliott, is that the translation?
21:07:13 <elliott> Vorpal: it's the translation back
21:07:14 <quintopia> 01:24 < quintopia> what does doing that entail?
21:07:15 <Vorpal> elliott, also where did you get that text from
21:07:18 <quintopia> 01:38 < quintopia> bedtime
21:07:20 <Vorpal> elliott, what was it originally?
21:07:21 <quintopia> 01:41 < curiosity> :P
21:07:25 <quintopia> sorry
21:07:29 <quintopia> misclicked a link
21:07:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Translate it back with http://translate.google.com/ and you'll see.
21:07:34 <Vorpal> wat
21:07:34 <elliott> Uh, hopefully.
21:07:58 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, maybe not knowing that the function is not invertable
21:08:05 <elliott> Vorpal: ?
21:08:13 <elliott> Vorpal: what
21:08:21 <quintopia> if you know your sonnets
21:08:24 <quintopia> you'll recognize
21:08:36 <elliott> or even if you don't.
21:08:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I know that one. I don't know the name of it
21:08:44 <elliott> the first line is infamous.
21:08:48 <elliott> Vorpal: It has none.
21:08:52 <elliott> Well, "Sonnet 18".
21:08:57 <Vorpal> elliott, from where?
21:09:05 <elliott> Uhh... you know who wrote it right?
21:09:18 <Vorpal> elliott, one who couldn't spell his name consistently?
21:09:20 <Vorpal> if so yes
21:09:34 <elliott> ... yes, but I won't confirm again if you say it in such a silly way.
21:09:34 <Vorpal> elliott, but is it freestanding, not part of a play?
21:09:38 <elliott> yes.
21:09:56 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Sonnet_18_1609.jpg
21:09:58 <quintopia> He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named
21:10:09 <elliott> They totally fhake the darling buds of Maie.
21:10:35 <Vorpal> <elliott> ... yes, but I won't confirm again if you say it in such a silly way. <-- what do you have against using the English language in a way that might perhaps be seen by some as more complicated than required to express something?
21:11:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sonnet_18.ogg what the fucking fuck
21:11:10 <Vorpal> (okay, that one needs some commas)
21:13:43 <elliott> Vorpal: You see not a reason? Not in the endless folds of Plato's realm of concepts do you see some hint at a justification for not using excessive verbiage? You, not seeing a reason, even advocate this style of wording? You believe that it is superb for one and all to compose their sayings with the highest complexity and the longest form, so that to all its readers its basic message and meaning is obscured, and any more complicated message under
21:13:43 <elliott> neath is suffocated by the smothering layers of crap?
21:13:47 <elliott> BAH TO THAT I SAY
21:13:49 <elliott> BAH!
21:14:23 <Gregor> elliott: Does your oh-so-much-tastier OISC have an esolangs wiki page?
21:14:55 <elliott> Gregor: Well, sure, it will ... soon ...
21:14:57 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
21:15:10 <elliott> Gregor: It's totally hard thinking of one-operand OISCs though.
21:16:05 <elliott> Gregor: I could just use rssb, but, so boring.
21:16:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I have to say, that all things considered, I have to praise your recent speech for being expressed in a wonderful, nay, awesome!, way. Could you expand on it you think?
21:16:41 <elliott> *auuesome
21:17:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Verily, although I vuill be forced to eliminate the modern distinction between "V" and "U"; instead, I vuill use "V" at the beginning of vuords and "U" afteruuards, and deconstruct "W" into its forming "U"s.
21:17:42 <Vorpal> elliott, perhaps old chap, you are right in your suggestion there. I surmise that you have even more impressive speech prepared from this.
21:18:21 <elliott> Alſo, I vuill be forced to vse the long s.
21:19:25 <Vorpal> elliott, is it per chance to be found with a compose-key sequence? Or may it be that AltGr could be able to conjure it into existence?
21:19:32 <elliott> ſſſſſſſſſſſ
21:20:31 <elliott> Alſo ß.
21:21:03 <elliott> All you aßes can't liquefy gaſes.
21:21:16 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you write these, pray?
21:21:30 <elliott> Ctrl+U.
21:21:35 <elliott> (OH THE FUNNY)
21:21:36 <quintopia> elliott: you have a one-operand OISC without memory-mapped arithmetic?
21:21:47 <elliott> quintopia: memory-mapped arithmetic? lame :P
21:21:55 <elliott> quintopia: RSSB is an existing one-operand OISC
21:22:28 <quintopia> but it's lame cuz it requires an accumulator
21:22:45 <elliott> quintopia: figure out a why to do it without one, then, without memory-mapping crap
21:22:46 <quintopia> which is like a free operand
21:22:56 <quintopia> elliott: i'd love to
21:22:57 <Vorpal> elliott, huh? That won't work here I'm afraid, since that would go somewhere else on my system likely, when taking the configuration into consideration
21:23:16 <cpressey> it will start up outlook!
21:23:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean Ctrl+V.
21:23:18 <elliott> It was a joke.
21:23:31 <Vorpal> elliott, oh :P
21:23:36 <Vorpal> elliott, oooh
21:23:38 <Vorpal> now I get it
21:26:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I got confused you see, since on old mac (with that I mean, classical MacOS, that is, pre-OS X, which is 9.0 and older) ctrl-<key> often inserted text rather than, as is common on some other systems (such as Linux and Windows), triggering some action[1]. I do not know if this is still the case under OS X or not.
21:26:33 <Vorpal> [1] Commonly known as hotkey, shortcut or similar terms.
21:27:09 <Vorpal> Usually it was just boxes, indicating it was not something that was to be found in the font in usage.
21:27:43 <Vorpal> Alt often had "useful" (for some definitions of useful) symbols on it, like AltGr does on *nixes.
21:27:45 <cpressey> Command-Apple-Windows-Ctrl-Meta-Shift-R
21:27:55 <cpressey> *Open_Apple
21:28:05 <cpressey> *Stummie
21:31:03 <Vorpal> hm
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21:32:08 <Vorpal> I wonder if this is valid C:
21:32:09 <Vorpal> void foo(void) { /* ... */ }
21:32:09 <Vorpal> void bar(int i) {
21:32:09 <Vorpal> if (i > 0) return foo();
21:32:09 <Vorpal> /* ... */
21:32:10 <Vorpal> }
21:32:12 <Vorpal> it works
21:32:14 <Vorpal> and is elegant
21:32:17 <Vorpal> but is it valid
21:33:31 <olsner> return with a void expression? I suspect it's not valid even though it might work
21:33:38 * Gregor votes invalid.
21:33:59 <Gregor> Does it compile with -ansi -pedantic?
21:34:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, only tried clang
21:34:12 <Gregor> That's the best test you can do short of poring over the spec.
21:34:28 <coppro> yes
21:34:28 <Vorpal> /home/arvid/t.c:3:16: warning: ISO C forbids ‘return’ with expression, in function returning void
21:34:29 <coppro> it's valid
21:34:30 <Vorpal> aww
21:34:30 <fizzie> "A return statement with an expression shall not appear in a function whose return type is void."
21:34:37 <coppro> oh, wait, C
21:34:39 <coppro> nvm then
21:34:41 <fizzie>, para 1.
21:34:43 <coppro> (it's allowed in C++)
21:35:03 <olsner> fizzie :)
21:36:40 <fizzie> It is indeed different in C++; 6.6.3 para 3 in 14882:2003: "A return statement with an expression of type "cv void" can be used only in functions with a return type of cv void; the expression is evaluated just before the function returns to its caller."
21:37:20 <Vorpal> okay, this is like the single place where C++ is better than C
21:40:47 <elliott> Vorpal: not really, the construct is a bit meaningless :P
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21:42:52 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a shorthand for if (i > 0) { foo(); return; }
21:43:04 <Vorpal> if (i > 0) return foo();
21:43:08 <Vorpal> is more elegant
21:44:03 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd go as far as "elegant", because it *really* looks like foo() is returning a thing there.
21:44:27 <oerjan> (i > 0) && return foo();
21:44:34 <olsner> it does make it look like a proper tailcall
21:44:45 <olsner> and I really like tailcalls
21:44:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
21:44:57 <fizzie> Well, okay, it does look more taily, that's true.
21:45:05 <elliott> if (i > 0) jmp foo();
21:45:07 <elliott> well
21:45:08 <elliott> goto foo();
21:45:09 <elliott> like perl :-)
21:45:10 <Vorpal> <oerjan> (i > 0) && return foo(); <-- sure that works in C?
21:45:21 <Vorpal> I strongly suspect it doesn't
21:45:41 <oerjan> me too, in fact i think it's even worse than i thought before pressing enter
21:45:46 <olsner> it does not, return is a statement, && takes expressions
21:45:56 <Vorpal> silly C
21:46:05 <Vorpal> now what you need to do is:
21:46:27 <olsner> I wonder if gcc's statement-expressions can return
21:46:29 <Vorpal> (i > 0) && foo(myjmpbuf);
21:46:30 <oerjan> it may however be legal haskell
21:46:31 <Vorpal> :D
21:46:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: In GNU C, this works: (i > 0) && ({return foo();});
21:46:37 <Vorpal> I have no idea if that will work
21:46:39 <Vorpal> wait no
21:46:40 <pikhq> olsner: Very yes.
21:46:45 <Vorpal> not if foo is a void function
21:46:55 <Vorpal> it might if foo returns something
21:47:56 <oerjan> if foo is a Bool
21:48:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, or int, or any pointer, or anything in fact except void
21:48:17 <oerjan> and the Monad instance for (e ->) has been imported
21:48:22 <Vorpal> oh haskell
21:48:24 <Vorpal> right
21:48:38 <elliott> if (i > 0) ({return foo();});
21:48:50 <pikhq> Vorpal: Didn't they make return foo(); equal to foo(), return; for a void function? (I could be wrong though).
21:49:00 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah you even miss the point
21:49:04 <pikhq> elliott: It's (i > 0) && ({return foo();}); though.
21:49:12 <elliott> pikhq: It was a joke
21:49:18 <pikhq> Ah.
21:49:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, erhm in?
21:49:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, C? well gcc maybe
21:49:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: C.
21:49:38 <olsner> foo(), RETURN; with #define RETURN ({return;})
21:49:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is not legal C89/C99
21:49:50 <pikhq> Sure enough they didn't.
21:50:02 <fizzie> pikhq: That was exactly the topic, and we quoted up there the spec where it's not-legal in C, legal in C++.
21:50:07 <pikhq> I thought maybe they would to make some old K&R C work with prototypes & sane headers.
21:50:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm foo(), return; would that be valid?
21:50:13 <Vorpal> it might
21:50:21 <olsner> no, , takes expressions again
21:50:25 <Vorpal> damn
21:51:25 <fizzie> How about "void dummy() { return; } if (i > 0) foo(), __builtin_return(__builtin_apply(dummy, NULL, 0));" on GCC? Elegant! (Disclaimer: probably won't work; __builtin_return and __builtin_apply are a bit messy.)
21:51:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does __builtin_return do?
21:52:00 <Vorpal> __builtin_apply I know but...
21:52:11 <fizzie> It returns the provided argument from the containing function; and the argument must be something returned by __builtin_apply.
21:52:28 <fizzie> It's there so that you can pass the returned value along without actually knowing the type.
21:52:36 <fizzie> (I think.)
21:55:59 <oerjan> seriously hacky polymorphism? :D
21:58:35 <fizzie> oerjan: "However, these built-in functions may interact badly with some sophisticated features or other extensions of the language. It is, therefore, not recommended to use them outside very simple functions acting as mere forwarders for their arguments."
21:59:31 <fizzie> Anyway, you can sort-of do general decorator-style things, except of course not very well.
22:01:54 <Gregor> HEYWAIT
22:02:15 <Gregor> BytePusher doesn't give you sufficient time to both update every pixel and do interesting computation at 60FPS!
22:02:18 <Gregor> THAT MAKES ME CRY :(
22:02:30 <fizzie> Maybe you're just too slow!
22:02:46 <Gregor> fizzie: It has a fixed speed :P
22:03:18 <fizzie> Gregor: Well, in the "wasting too many cycles" sense of "slow", I mean.
22:04:05 <Gregor> Assuming you want to update every pixel, and that you can only update one pixel per instruction (which is true), you have exactly as many instructions per frame as are sufficient to update every pixel. But none remaining to do useful computation.
22:04:06 <fizzie> Admittedly using less than one cycle per pixel is... quite a task.
22:04:13 <Gregor> :P
22:04:44 <fizzie> How's the FPS in the example thingies?
22:05:02 <Gregor> All programs go at 60FPS.
22:05:04 <elliott> Gregor: should be like the amiga
22:05:06 <elliott> with twice the fps
22:05:13 <Gregor> fizzie: And none of the examples touch every pixel every frame.
22:05:34 <Gregor> elliott: That makes me sadface unsmileyclown!
22:05:41 <elliott> Gregor: ...why?
22:05:51 <Gregor> Idonno *shrugs*
22:06:03 <elliott> Gregor: Three? Four times?
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22:11:16 <elliott> Gregor: Well? :P
22:12:27 -!- wareya_ has joined.
22:15:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, do you need to update every pixel every time?
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22:18:51 <cheater99> HELLO
22:19:37 <cpressey> < Vorpal> okay, this is like the single place where C++ is better than C
22:19:44 <cpressey> appropriately it's an almost inconsequential improvement
22:20:08 <cpressey> yay i can return nothing in a context where i said i couldn't return anything
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22:21:47 <cheater99> yay
22:24:07 <Vorpal> <cpressey> appropriately it's an almost inconsequential improvement <-- yes indeed
22:25:31 <olsner> hmm, so I was thinking about putting netbsd on my server... too bad I use reiserfs which doesn't appear to be supported by netbsd
22:27:37 <elliott> olsner: you use reiserfs?
22:27:40 <elliott> it's unmaintained since 2006!
22:27:43 <elliott> and will never be maintained again
22:27:51 <elliott> company is dead, pretty much only dev imprisoned
22:28:04 <elliott> olsner: just use ffsv2, next-gen filesystems can wait ;)
22:28:09 <elliott> on linux btw btrfs is basically reiserfs5
22:28:10 <elliott> brb
22:28:49 <olsner> I do use reiserfs yes
22:30:54 <fizzie> You murderer of files!
22:31:19 <olsner> reiserfs was completely awesome when ext2 was the alternative
22:31:30 <cpressey> i detect a whiff of extreme drama here
22:32:03 <olsner> it's really hard to compare file systems though :)
22:32:09 <cpressey> "ReiserFS is currently supported on Linux." claims wp
22:32:36 <cpressey> "Hans Thomas Reiser (born 19 December 1963) is an American former computer entrepreneur, owner of Namesys, the primary developer of the ReiserFS and Reiser4 computer filesystems, and convicted murderer." claims wp ALSIO
22:32:40 <cpressey> *ALSO
22:32:59 <fizzie> When ext2 was the alternative, a reiserfs partition of mine blew up; after that I've had an illogical dislike of it.
22:33:25 <fizzie> The Namesys wp page does say it's pretty much dead.
22:33:46 <fizzie> But you can define "supported" many ways.
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22:34:55 <cpressey> "Categories: Linux kernel hackers | 1963 births | Living people | American people convicted of murder | People from Oakland, California | American prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment | Prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment by California | People convicted of murder by California"
22:35:17 <cpressey> No "People who named a file system after themselves"?
22:35:42 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:36:20 <fizzie> Is there a way to select an intersection of two categories from wp? I'd like to see the cardinality of kernel hackers intersect convicted murderers.
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22:40:34 <fizzie> It's 2010, year of the semantic web; I'm a bit disappointed that I can't yet ask SemantiGoogle for "killer kernel hackers" and have it hilariously misinterpret me and return only Reiser.
22:41:03 <Gregor> fizzie: I'm thinkin' ... one.
22:41:55 <fizzie> I don't know... especially among filesystem developers, you'd think the violent crime rate would be pretty high.
22:43:26 <fizzie> "semantigoogle" - 1 result. (And that's just some irclog.)
22:51:10 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Moo.).
22:54:16 <elliott> fizzie: Semantigoogle -> Semoogle -> Smoogle -> Smeagol
22:55:18 <Gregor> Semantigoogle -> semtigoogle -> semitegoogle
22:56:10 <elliott> Semantigoogle -> Semntigoogle -> Semen-to-Google
22:56:50 <Gregor> Semantigoogle -> Smfgoogle -> google fucks your mom
22:57:48 <fizzie> SemantiGoogle - SettaniMoogle - SantaMyOgre - Sat on my gorge - Sand is my urge - Soap on a pole - Raptors are fierce - ... wait, this doesn't seem to converge.
23:05:32 <oerjan> semiotigoogle
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23:39:55 <elliott> quintopia: you there?
23:40:44 <elliott> Vorpal: pikhq: you also (but for different reasons)
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23:56:52 <pikhq> Yo.
23:57:12 <oerjan> Yo.
23:58:31 <elliott> pikhq: I just realised something (reading about runit).
23:58:44 <elliott> pikhq: My service manager means I can ditch PID files.
23:58:50 <elliott> Why? The service manager knows what the PID is, duh.
23:58:56 <pikhq> :D
23:59:11 <elliott> # kill -HUP $(svpid myservice)
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