←2010-10-18 2010-10-19 2010-10-20→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:12:59 -!- augur has joined.
00:25:30 <quintopia> yessir
00:25:38 -!- cal153 has joined.
00:26:40 <elliott> quintopia: in a freetext calculator thing, variable assignment has to come after the expression :)
00:26:43 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:26:47 <elliott> so you can do [complex workings out]->var
00:26:51 <elliott> like STO on a calculator
00:27:28 <quintopia> oh goody
00:27:41 <quintopia> i always thought that made more sense than left assignment
00:28:06 <quintopia> why would one put the operation that comes last on the left? we read left to right damnit
00:31:12 -!- catseye has joined.
00:32:27 <Gregor> In my opinion, which you will all immediately disavow while calling me an idiot, having the target on the left of assignments in an imperative languages improves code skimmability.
00:32:38 <Gregor> *in imperative languages
00:32:46 <elliott> Gregor: Duh, I agree.
00:32:50 <elliott> I'm saying for a calculator.
00:32:56 <elliott> Where everything is evaluated immediately.
00:33:07 <elliott> 2+2 shows 4 somewhere else, then + shows 4+, then 3 shows 7
00:33:14 <elliott> then ->x or whatever stores it into x
00:33:21 <elliott> or rather counts as a definition of x, but the point is
00:33:27 <elliott> you can use it like a pocket calculator pushing buttons
00:33:29 <elliott> except sleeker
00:33:37 <Gregor> I was responding to quintopia, whose statements seem to have suggested wider applicability (maybe :P )
00:33:44 <catseye> 2+2(cursor here)=4(this is updated as you type)
00:33:48 <elliott> an esolang has that iirc
00:33:56 <elliott> catseye: perhaps, yeah
00:34:24 <catseye> have it draw the ast as you type! silly.
00:34:31 <elliott> http://peterstuifzand.nl/2010/05/30/calculators-on-computers.html, http://stuifzand.eu/abacus/ is what inspired me
00:34:33 <elliott> although it's imperfect
00:34:39 <catseye> instructive, for a prog lang env for beginners, though, maybe
00:34:55 <elliott> "I created a new calculator. This short video shows how it works. I use it more often than calculator that's included on my computer." ;; i dislike this fashionable style of writing
00:34:58 <Gregor> <catseye> have it draw the ast as you type! silly. // .. omg.
00:35:00 <Gregor> Best idea ever.
00:35:06 <elliott> where talking in really simple retard-statements is considered the mark of a minimalist
00:35:16 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, yes it is.
00:35:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:35:39 <catseye> elliott: It is the fashionable style. It works well. I use it.
00:35:45 <elliott> Gregor: Codekana, a Visual Studio extension for Windows, has a partial-AST-parser thing that it uses to highlight invalid code (missing a } somewhere and recovering after and stuff)
00:35:52 <elliott> The blog post had diagrams.
00:35:58 <elliott> That would be very cool to see in realtime.
00:36:26 <pikhq> elliott: ... Codekana?
00:36:30 <elliott> catseye: I wrote a program to do arithmetic. You type in formulas with the keyboard and it tells you the results. I find it a very useful piece of software.
00:36:35 <elliott> pikhq: http://www.codekana.com/ It's just some random VS extension.
00:36:52 <pikhq> elliott: Or as I'd write it, コデカナ?
00:36:52 <elliott> http://www.codekana.com/blog/2009/04/02/on-the-speed-of-light-innovation-and-the-future-of-parsing/ Here's the "blah blah blah" blog post about it, with diagrams.
00:36:53 <elliott> Skimmable.
00:37:08 <elliott> Does feature phi in a drawn example of C code to denote "any integer", though.
00:37:11 <elliott> Which is something you don't see every day.
00:37:20 <catseye> elliott: with the keyboard!
00:37:21 <elliott> pikhq: It's developed by the guy who wrote ViEmu.
00:37:31 <elliott> (which was a surprisingly complete vi-esque interface to Visual Studio)
00:37:32 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, I'm just going "what the hell is with the name". :P
00:37:34 <elliott> and, uh
00:37:38 <elliott> "Word, Outlook and SQL Server" too
00:37:56 <elliott> pikhq: so it can use ninja silliness and, uh,
00:37:59 <elliott> [[Inspired on “kana”, the Japanese name of reading and writing systems, I decided to call the product Codekana. And I set out to write it.]]
00:38:07 <elliott> it's, like, meant to make you look at your code in a WHOLE NEW WAY or something
00:38:07 <elliott> anyway
00:38:14 <elliott> i'm only talking about the partial ast stuff
00:38:25 <elliott> which gives a reasonable parse even if you type in partially valid code in the middle ({ without })
00:38:32 <elliott> by using history
00:38:50 <pikhq> elliott: So, it's actually a reference to kana. Without even the faintest resemblance.
00:38:56 <elliott> pikhq: Oh shut up :P
00:38:58 <pikhq> elliott: I could respect it if it used kana. :P
00:39:10 -!- catseye has changed nick to DrNinja.
00:39:19 <pikhq> 忍者医師!
00:39:24 -!- DrNinja has changed nick to catseye.
00:39:29 <catseye> No, it's too early for THAT.
00:39:30 <pikhq> 猫目!
00:39:50 <elliott> Anyway yes calculators could be so much better.
00:43:03 <catseye> "But the intermediate version, when you have typed the new code only partially, is incorrect. In this incorrect version, braces dont pair properly."
00:43:19 <catseye> I know I'm weird but... you could just prevent an unmatched brace from ever appearing.
00:43:33 -!- new-lisper has joined.
00:43:44 <pikhq> The solution is to not use braced languages.
00:43:45 <catseye> If you type {, you get {}. If you delete }, you delete {*}.
00:43:46 <pikhq> :P
00:44:08 <elliott> catseye: ITT: paredit
00:44:12 <oerjan> pikhq: i'm sure new-lisper disagrees ;D
00:44:15 <elliott> it's actually quite irritating.
00:44:16 <Gregor> Funny how you start talking about non-braced languages right as new-lisper comes in :P
00:44:21 <catseye> pikhq: Even Haskell pairs 'let' and 'in'...
00:44:55 <oerjan> catseye: not to mention, you know, _actual_ brackets
00:44:56 <catseye> elliott: I realize it can be irritating, but I don't think we've explored the space very much either
00:46:07 <catseye> The ultimate expression of this idea is probably ZX81 BASIC program entry :)
00:46:16 <catseye> at least, for the time
00:46:56 <Gregor> Bad idea of the day: A platformer in which the world you're playing again is the web.
00:47:12 <Gregor> s/again/in/ wtf
00:47:29 <elliott> Gregor: Totally preempted that one in 2006. (Long story.)
00:47:32 <oerjan> Gregor: very popular in china, that
00:47:44 <Gregor> elliott: ???
00:47:46 <Gregor> oerjan: ???
00:47:58 <elliott> Gregor: Turns out that in reality nobody actually wants to wade through levels of shock pictures and therefore it should never be made.
00:48:06 <elliott> note: okay, so that isn't what you meant
00:48:39 <Gregor> No. No it is not :P
00:49:26 <oerjan> You have been rickrolled! Return to level 4.
00:49:40 <Gregor> The playing field is not FIGURATIVELY the web.
00:49:46 <Gregor> The playing field is LITERALLY web pages.
00:49:46 <elliott> Gregor: Ohhhh.
00:49:55 <elliott> oerjan: go back three spaces.
00:50:05 <elliott> Gregor: I think something like that has maybe been done. Don't recall.
00:50:12 <elliott> Gregor: So, what, you shimmy down the jagged cliff of /b/?
00:50:23 <elliott> Wade through the gaps in long pages of styleless text?
00:50:29 <Gregor> Yes! Links are warps! You want to find certain things?
00:50:33 <elliott> Jump into Wikipedia links? :D
00:50:36 <Gregor> There could be powerups for certain elements.
00:50:37 <Gregor> Yes!
00:50:43 <elliott> Please tell me it can POST.
00:50:51 <catseye> fuk
00:50:53 <elliott> Achievement Unlocked: Vandalise Wikipedia!
00:50:57 <Gregor> X-D
00:51:14 <elliott> Gregor: You have to collect letters from pages on the internet, travel back to Google, and put them in the search box.
00:51:18 <elliott> This is the only form of key entry supported.
00:51:41 <Gregor> That ... is awesome.
00:51:43 <oerjan> letters are too easy. use whole words.
00:51:48 <Sgeo> Note to self: Telling all my problems to the wrong channel is a bad idea. Prevents me from having the energy to repeat my problems to the right channel
00:51:49 <catseye> "I need to optimize my slacking -- hey, I can surf the web *and* play a platformer *at the same time*!"
00:51:57 <Gregor> elliott: You carry them like monsters in Mario 2.
00:52:11 <elliott> oerjan: Yes
00:52:13 <elliott> Yes yes yes
00:52:27 <elliott> Aardvark ... municipal ... barely legal ... artichoke
00:52:34 <elliott> [SEARCH]
00:52:47 <Gregor> Hottest - porn - ever.
00:52:48 <elliott> Gregor: Entering a googlewhack gets you points.
00:52:56 <oerjan> also, you have only "I'm feeling lucky"
00:53:10 <elliott> Man, landing on Last Measure would be the worst thing ever.
00:53:12 <elliott> Game popups!
00:53:12 <elliott> OMG
00:53:16 <elliott> You can jump on game popups
00:53:17 <elliott> And they like
00:53:19 <elliott> bob down
00:53:21 <elliott> Because of your weight
00:53:25 <elliott> And you can jump on top of them
00:53:26 <elliott> Then climb in
00:53:32 <elliott> When you climb in they zoom to full screen
00:53:40 <elliott> Casino ads will never be the same
00:53:49 <elliott> <Sgeo> Note to self: Telling all my problems to the wrong channel is a bad idea. Prevents me from having the energy to repeat my problems to the right channel
00:53:51 <elliott> ctrl+c ctrl+v
00:54:01 <elliott> Gregor: ...now implement it in javascript
00:54:11 <elliott> Gregor: and if you visit the game in the game, all your points in the metagame count to the rael game
00:54:11 <Sgeo> I mean emotionally
00:54:12 <elliott> *real
00:54:13 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: go back three spaces. <-- or maybe like three years, come to think of it.
00:54:23 <elliott> Sgeo: ctrl+c ctrl+v requires no emotional energy.
00:54:29 <elliott> oerjan: burn :D
00:55:16 <Gregor> elliott: The problem with implementing it in JavaScript is that the only way you can inject yourself onto an arbitrary page is with a bookmarklet ...
00:55:34 <elliott> Gregor: Nonono, just use Web Sockets or whatever (when that gets implemented :P)
00:55:37 <elliott> Gregor: And render it manually.
00:55:43 <elliott> ...come to think of it, how about you do it in NOT JAVASCRIPT
00:55:47 <elliott> (rendering engine in javascript = lol)
00:55:56 <catseye> firefox plugin FIREFOX PLUGIN yeah
00:56:14 <elliott> you could do it as java with http://www.interactivepulp.com/pulpcore/?
00:56:19 <elliott> the only thing that makes java applets not sucK!
00:56:20 <elliott> *suck!
00:56:28 <Gregor> Writing it as a Firefox plugin has the advantages of discriminating against Chrome users AND being JavaScripts!
00:56:42 <elliott> or
00:56:48 <elliott> how about writing it in C or something like that
00:56:50 <elliott> CRAZY IDEA I KNOW
00:56:54 <catseye> Gregor: it's SYSTEM JAVASCRIPTS now
00:57:12 <elliott> I like how Gregor is now disparaging Javascript.
00:57:15 <oerjan> elliott> *real <-- and here i was imagining some game with ufos and aliens
00:57:22 <elliott> Unless he's beign serious.
00:57:23 <elliott> *being
00:57:34 <Gregor> elliott: I'm not sure whether I was being serious or not.
00:57:34 <elliott> oerjan: i approve
00:57:36 <elliott> ruby on raels
00:57:38 <Gregor> elliott: I haven't yet decided.
00:57:42 <pikhq> "Opponents of the mosque, who have sued the planning commission and other county officials, have argued that it shouldn't have been granted a religious use permit because, according to them, Islam isn't really a religion."
00:57:49 <pikhq> On the building of a mosque in Tennessee.
00:57:51 <elliott> http://railsblob.blogspot.com/2006/08/ruby-on-raels.html
00:57:53 <elliott> (RIP why)
00:58:07 <pikhq> WHY CAN PEOPLE BE THAT DUMB.
00:58:08 <pikhq> WHY.
00:58:30 <Sgeo> elliott, why probably isn't dead
00:58:40 <elliott> Sgeo: whoever-posted-as-why isn't
00:58:41 <elliott> why is
00:58:41 <pikhq> :P
00:59:26 <Sgeo> Who gets to decide what is and what isn't really a religion?
00:59:42 <Gregor> Sgeo: Jesus.
00:59:53 <elliott> ITT: Sgeo manages to uncover the point with blind fumbling
01:00:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: In the US legal system? The courts.
01:00:30 <elliott> Your MO--
01:00:34 <elliott> pikhq's mom.
01:00:36 <elliott> gets to decide
01:00:49 <pikhq> Yes. The courts act in her name.
01:00:57 <pikhq> Much like the Queen, except nobody knows.
01:00:58 <pikhq> :P
01:01:04 <pikhq> Except elliott.
01:01:11 <pikhq> Now I'll have to remove his brain.
01:01:11 <elliott> uh oh
01:01:17 <Gregor> And now, all of #esoteric
01:01:20 * elliott flees; helplessly
01:01:28 * elliott misuses; semicoli
01:01:45 <pikhq> Gregor: You'll just get surgically induced amnesia.
01:01:51 * Gregor misuses the fourteeth letter of the alphabet
01:02:32 <Gregor> Also the ninth and fifteenth :P
01:02:54 <pikhq> Also, it's quite amusing that people are going full retard on this but praise Bush.
01:03:13 <pikhq> Bush ran around saying "Islam is a religion of peace". Honest. I am not making this up.
01:03:30 <pikhq> (I presume he meant "as opposed to Christianity. We'll kill them all!")
01:03:47 <Sgeo> Are there current politicians saying that Islam is dangerous and needs to be destroyed?
01:03:55 <Sgeo> I think no politician would be that stupid
01:03:56 <Sgeo> I hope
01:03:58 <pikhq> Sgeo: Tea Party.
01:03:59 <elliott> HAHAHAHA
01:04:04 <elliott> HAHAHAHA
01:04:06 <new-lisper> ROFLMAO
01:04:15 <elliott> gjsdiogjsdiogjaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
01:04:16 <elliott> AHAHAHAHAHAGoodnight. Bye.
01:04:17 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Connection reset by peer review).
01:04:32 <new-lisper> Tea is for emacs users.
01:04:48 <Sgeo> Did you just call me a Tea Partier?
01:04:48 <new-lisper> Emacs is for tea drinkers.
01:04:51 <Sgeo> Take that back
01:04:53 <oerjan> <pikhq> WHAT SORT OF KIND, LOVING, RANDOM EXPLOSION THAT CREATED EVERYTHING ALLOWS FOR THIS. <-- i was going to say kind, loving, random explosions don't exist, but then i realized i would inevitably get a response involving roughly "in my pants".
01:05:11 <new-lisper> No, I didn't
01:05:20 <pikhq> oerjan: That was a hybrid of "kind loving God" and "Big Bang", of course. :)
01:05:22 <catseye> Emacs Party
01:05:24 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:05:44 <new-lisper> So, I am from Ed Party
01:05:54 <Sgeo> Notepad Party
01:05:57 <Sgeo> me ducks
01:06:05 <Sgeo> Dear key. Please work
01:06:23 <new-lisper> Or better, Cat Party
01:06:34 <catseye> SciTE-nano Coalition
01:06:42 <Gregor> Can Has Cat Party
01:06:46 <new-lisper> nothing beats "cat - > myprogram.c"
01:07:09 <new-lisper> CAN HAS CHEEZBURGUER? Party
01:09:15 <oerjan> Sgeo: it is the UNKEY
01:14:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:15:43 <catseye> it's unkey-dorey
01:20:25 <catseye> bbl
01:22:16 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:22:55 -!- wareya has joined.
01:29:16 <oerjan> bah nosebleed
01:33:50 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:34:24 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:48:31 -!- augur has joined.
01:49:46 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:51:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:54:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:14:05 <catseye> beautiful
02:14:24 <catseye> ntfs-3g created some files on my NTFS partition that contain backslashes in their names
02:14:46 <catseye> WINDOWS IS CONFUSE
02:33:02 <catseye> enum 4 0 0 doif cage lt 4 setv va00 4 subv va00 cage ages va00 endi next
02:33:06 <Gregor> Hyuk
02:36:52 <catseye> Idea: create tarball of 1,024 files, each named "abracadabra" but with different capitalization. Distribute to friends who use case-insensitive file systems.
02:37:03 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:37:22 <catseye> hm no. 2,048 files, I guess
02:37:49 <oerjan> what hocuspocus
02:37:53 -!- wareya has joined.
02:38:20 <catseye> OH i just made 2,047 files disappear!!
02:38:55 -!- new-lisper has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:46:10 <Sgeo> Wait what?
02:46:17 <Sgeo> catseye is now a Creatures person?
02:46:54 <Sgeo> Or, at least, is mocking the "Age all creatures to adult" code
02:47:06 <Sgeo> But... catseye provided absolutely no context.
02:47:15 <catseye> Sgeo: No context for you!
02:47:34 <catseye> CONFUSION REIGNS.
02:47:51 <Sgeo> I know exactly what the code you pasted does
02:47:58 <Sgeo> So will elliott, probably
02:48:06 <catseye> I just copied it from a wiki.
02:48:12 <catseye> I have never played this game myself.
02:49:13 <catseye> Sgeo: I also saw an SHA1 hash of your name.
02:49:36 <Sgeo> I was more paranoid about my name back then
02:50:43 <Sgeo> Right now, given that hash, and what #esoteric knows about my name, and this sentence, you could bruteforce my middle initial.
02:51:35 <Sgeo> How did you stumble upon that wiki?
02:52:17 <oerjan> S. Hubert G.
02:52:34 <catseye> Sgeo: tbh, I googled "Sgeo" :)
02:53:22 <catseye> "Seirei Gakuen Educational Organization", says the first hit
02:54:17 <Sgeo> If you googled for my real name, you'd find a gay DJ
02:54:22 * Sgeo is not a gay DJ.
02:54:55 <oerjan> SAYS YOU
02:56:40 <catseye> Sgeo: Are you a Windows 7 user now? er, part time anyway? Or did you install something else...
02:56:52 <Sgeo> Windows 7
02:57:04 <Sgeo> At some point, I'll get around to installing some Linux distro
02:57:07 <Sgeo> Maybe
02:59:16 <catseye> Sgeo: Use the PowerShell! Or, y'know, don't.
02:59:43 <catseye> I'm trying to figure out how to install it on Vista... PowerShell 2.0 seems to come with some intimidating "framework" thing...
03:00:08 <catseye> "WinRM is the Microsoft implementation of WS-Management Protocol, a standard Simple Object Access Protocol (SOAP)based, firewall-friendly protocol that allows for hardware and operating systems from different vendors to interoperate."
03:00:12 <catseye> ewwwwwwwwwwww
03:00:28 <catseye> That's like a triple dose of evil all in one package.
03:01:14 <catseye> Mmmmaybe I will stick with 1.0
03:03:44 <Sgeo> This is actually pretty nice music
03:10:34 <Sgeo> http://djsethgold.com/demo/DjsethGoldLive.mp3
03:12:36 <pikhq> Windows' handling of case in filenames is so confusing nowadays.
03:12:46 <pikhq> Now, it *stores* case, but is still case insensitive.
03:14:13 -!- augur has joined.
03:14:28 <Sgeo> Dear Steve Jobs: open/closed app development and integrated/fragmented are orthogonal issues
03:17:12 <Sgeo> Sure, openness to manufactuters can result in fragmentation, but there are other kinds of openness, that Android is and that iOS is not
03:19:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:25:54 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:26:27 -!- catseye has joined.
03:26:31 <catseye> POWERSHELL!!!
03:27:48 <GreaseMonkey> POWERTHIRST
03:28:01 <Slereah> 400 babies.
03:30:11 <Sgeo> enum 0 0 0 kill targ next
03:30:35 <Sgeo> That one kills everything everywhere
03:30:52 <catseye> I was going to ask if it was your intention to kill 400 babies.
03:31:04 <Sgeo> (Destroys, really. Kill all life is enum 4 0 0 dead next )
03:31:29 <Sgeo> Well, unless someone stuffed a creature into a non-4 family
03:31:34 <Sgeo> Which I've done
03:35:42 <catseye> \o/ 10.6G free, so I can actually install stuff now
03:35:42 <myndzi> |
03:35:43 <myndzi> |\
03:36:28 <catseye> And I wonder if I can get Cygwin bash running inside a Powershell window. I mean, I can get cygwin's irssi running here, so... it would be nice anyway.
03:36:31 <catseye> bbiab
03:36:33 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:41:30 <Sgeo> I love this music!
03:41:48 -!- Zuu_ has joined.
03:41:50 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:42:41 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu.
03:42:49 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
03:42:49 -!- Zuu has joined.
03:43:38 -!- augur has joined.
03:48:15 -!- catseye has joined.
03:48:31 <catseye> I wonder if his friends called him Benny
03:50:39 <catseye> ahhhh i bet i have to start a login shell for it to work
03:53:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:55:10 <catseye> ha HAAAAAAAAAA
03:55:11 <catseye> %SystemRoot%\system32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\powershell.exe -noexit C:\cygwin\cygwin.bat
03:55:53 <catseye> FINALLY, decent copy-and-pasting functionality while within Cygwin.
03:59:48 <catseye> And forget '-noexit'; it actually works better without.
04:09:53 -!- jcp has joined.
04:11:04 <catseye> eww
04:11:18 <catseye> w3m requires libgc
04:11:25 <catseye> that's vaguely disturbing
04:11:46 <catseye> (at least the cygwin port does)
04:11:50 <oerjan> *insert your mom joke*
04:12:41 <Quadrescence> your mom is so fat she had to install cygwin to install bc to run bash to compute her weight LOL
04:14:22 <oerjan> ...needs work.
04:17:01 -!- calamari has joined.
04:17:24 <Quadlex> Your mum is so fat, she gives RAMSAN's buffer overflows
04:17:46 <Quadlex> Your mum is so ugly, she has to be rendered in parallel to avoid the OS from rebooting
04:18:11 <Quadlex> Your mum is so slow, she lost against Java in a garbage collecting contest
04:18:31 <oerjan> i wonder if i really wanted a your face joke, actually.
04:18:44 <Quadlex> Your mum is so poor, google won't let her search because showing her ads is pointless
04:20:13 <Sgeo> RAMSENs?
04:20:19 <Sgeo> *RAMSANs?
04:21:17 <Quadlex> http://www.ramsan.com/
04:22:04 <quintopia> Gregor: i think having written the code yourself AND having it be in a language you are familiar with improves code skimmability...
04:22:18 <Gregor> Yes. Yes they do. Wooh.
04:25:18 <catseye> Having written the code yourself in a language you are unfamiliar with, however.
04:25:39 <catseye> Improves only "skimbility".
04:26:24 <quintopia> yes
04:26:33 -!- awilcox has joined.
04:26:34 <pikhq> I would just like to take this moment to declare that Daft Punk is awesome.
04:26:41 <awilcox> elliot, python is awesome
04:26:48 -!- awilcox has left (?).
04:26:54 <Sgeo> o.O
04:26:58 <catseye> wut
04:27:01 <quintopia> but i was meaning that AND capitalized as an "and/or" without taking up the space that takes
04:27:40 <Sgeo> (a ^ b ) v (a v b) = a v b
04:27:43 <Sgeo> So just say or
04:31:50 <catseye> :(
04:31:57 <catseye> configure: error: 'i686-pc-cygwin' is not (yet) supported by pcc.
04:53:05 <quintopia> sgeo: in english, "or" = ^, and "and/or" = ||
04:53:38 <Sgeo> I thought "or" = xor?
04:53:56 <Sgeo> Wait, that's what you said, isn't it?
04:55:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: In English, "or" = xor *only* if talking to someone who is actually familiar with xor. :P
05:03:58 <Sgeo> Ok, what's the difference between ^ and ... wait
05:04:04 <Sgeo> Who uses "or" to mean AND?
05:04:10 * Sgeo headaches
05:04:25 <Sgeo> I think I'm failing to understand some notation or another
05:06:09 <catseye> Um yes, I hadn't noticed until now, but...
05:06:26 <catseye> In C, ^ is xor, while in logic, ^ is and
05:07:32 <Sgeo> ^ should be banned from everything. It's used too much.
05:08:32 <pikhq> No, ^ should be the only unbanned ASCII character.
05:08:46 <pikhq> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
05:11:01 <quintopia> in Spiral ^ means peek/copy
05:22:04 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds).
05:24:03 -!- catseye has joined.
05:33:44 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
05:39:10 -!- augur has joined.
05:46:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
06:10:15 -!- Harpyon has joined.
06:12:01 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webplat/ SO MUCH STUPID
06:12:07 <Gregor> (It's also quite broken right now, but *eh*)
06:14:15 -!- Harpyon has quit (Client Quit).
06:15:58 <calamari> what's the point of this?
06:16:11 <coppro> epic win
06:16:17 <Gregor> Epic wiiiiin!
06:16:25 <Gregor> Run that bookmarklet on a page OTHER than that one :P
06:16:31 <calamari> yeah I did
06:16:37 <Gregor> Use WASD
06:16:51 <calamari> it shows a happy face and scrolls it down past the bottom of the page forever
06:16:58 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:17:09 <Gregor> You loaded it on a page with no platforms it could use :P
06:17:31 <Gregor> (Also, I've only tested this on Firefox)
06:17:47 <calamari> he needs a hot air balloon
06:17:51 <calamari> lol
06:18:20 <Gregor> This is just a proof of concept. There are lots of bugs to iron out, then I intend to add powerups when you find certain elements, etc.
06:18:24 <Gregor> And, y'know, a goal >_>
06:18:52 <calamari> so I need a page with a lot of images
06:18:55 <calamari> I guess?
06:19:41 <Gregor> Text works too. Wikipedia articles work.
06:20:03 <calamari> google doesn't
06:20:44 <calamari> lol
06:20:47 <Gregor> The Google homepage doesn't, but search results do.
06:20:48 <calamari> wikipedia is good
06:21:17 <calamari> search results didn't work for me, weird
06:21:21 <Gregor> Browser?
06:21:34 <Sgeo> It does not work nicely in Chrome on Wikipedia
06:21:44 <Gregor> It does not work nicely in Chrome /anywhere/
06:21:46 <calamari> firefox 3.6.10
06:22:10 <Sgeo> Gregor, I'm resuming the war against you
06:22:23 <Gregor> Sweet.
06:22:47 <coppro> it's awkward that you can't move upwards out of a box
06:23:06 <calamari> need to be able to break boxes somehow so you can go back up :)
06:23:20 <Gregor> This is a proof of concept, people :P
06:23:29 <Gregor> The biggest issue right now is that you can clip through some boxes for no obvious reason.
06:23:31 <coppro> Gregor: amstan suggests jquery
06:23:31 <Gregor> I have to fix that first.
06:23:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:23:49 <Gregor> Bleh@jquery
06:23:59 <Gregor> I guess this is EXACTLY the kind of thing you use jquery for X-P
06:24:06 <Gregor> (I never use libraries)
06:24:16 <coppro> 01:23 < ebering> aspergers, the game
06:24:18 <coppro> lol
06:24:31 <Gregor> What channel is this that you're advertising my stuff on X-P
06:25:02 <coppro> the UW computer science club
06:25:34 <Gregor> You're at UW?
06:25:42 <coppro> pink ties forever!
06:25:51 <Gregor> Tell Brian Burg "I don't know you!" Unless you know him, in which case just say hi or something.
06:26:03 <Gregor> OH
06:26:04 <coppro> I don't know him
06:26:05 <Gregor> That UW X-D
06:26:11 <Gregor> Waterloo, not Washington :P
06:26:39 <calamari> I broke I phone .. can't get nandroid to work
06:31:28 <coppro> calamari: Android probably works better than Nandroid
06:31:51 <Sgeo> Nandroid is a thingy for Android
06:31:55 <Sgeo> Backups, I think
06:32:20 <calamari> yeah
06:32:35 <calamari> trying to recover via fastboot instead of the recovery image, hopefully that'll work
06:32:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:33:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:37:23 <calamari> Gregor: cool btw :)
06:38:01 <Gregor> AND PIKHQ MISSED IT
06:38:03 <Gregor> HA HA HA
06:38:06 <calamari> let me know when you've replaced the smiley face with a paypal donation link, then I'll know it's done :)
06:38:16 <Gregor> Bahaha
06:39:43 <calamari> can it tell that it's gotten to the bottom of the page?
06:39:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: pikhq: you also (but for different reasons) <-- morning
06:40:14 <calamari> I mean of the logical page not the visible page
06:42:22 <calamari> yay, phone is restored :)
06:42:25 <Vorpal> bbl. university
06:42:58 <Gregor> calamari: Not at present, no :P
06:43:07 <Gregor> You just fall for all eternity.
06:43:28 <calamari> well yeah, but is it possible to tell
06:45:19 * calamari steals Gregors secrets
06:47:06 <Gregor> Oh, sure, it's possible to tell.
06:47:07 <Gregor> I just don't.
06:47:17 <Gregor> Gimme a break, I wrote this in like half an hour X-D
06:47:58 <calamari> no I was genuinely asking, I know nothing about js
06:48:05 <quintopia> i wrote jQuery in half an hour
06:48:15 <quintopia> js is easy
06:49:08 <calamari> s/asy/vil/
06:50:46 <catseye> It chorks
06:54:57 <calamari> it kinda works on the phone but typing forces open a search window so you can't move
06:55:22 <quintopia> Gregor: webplat is neat, but i don't like how it prevents me from jumping UP through bounding boxes unless i've dropped DOWN through them first, and then i can't land on them again!
06:55:48 <Gregor> quintopia: Proof of concept! ;)
06:55:57 <quintopia> better would be: can always jump up through them, can always land on them, can always drop through them
06:56:01 <quintopia> yes i know
06:56:07 <quintopia> perfect time for criticism!
06:56:23 <quintopia> inputs for future versions!
06:56:43 <calamari> Gregor's secrets: http://codu.org/webplat/webplat.js
06:56:59 <Gregor> I wouldn't advise that you read that :P
06:57:07 <quintopia> i can find bookmarklet source myself kthx
06:58:18 <quintopia> this could be a game...
06:59:06 <Gregor> It's intended to be a game (eventually)
06:59:22 <quintopia> imagine two players hopping around on the same page....then creating portals to other pages....and following each other around....
06:59:26 <quintopia> what is the goal in the game
07:00:08 <calamari> quintopia: to skim credit card numbers and passwords
07:00:10 <catseye> to be a proof of concept
07:00:26 <calamari> ;P
07:00:28 <quintopia> success!
07:03:52 -!- evincar has joined.
07:04:26 <evincar> Hello world.
07:05:17 <Quadlex> world: Do I know you?
07:07:08 <evincar> Only as a doll knows the paint of its eye.
07:08:04 <evincar> Jeez, now I want to make some poetic language.
07:08:52 <Quadlex> Don't do that, you'll get hives
07:08:57 <Quadlex> Or worse, a beret
07:09:34 <quintopia> also, it's been done, several times.
07:10:07 <catseye> yeah never do anything that has been done. breathing is RIGHT OUT
07:10:18 <evincar> Actually, I was leaning toward something more along the lines of why the lucky stiff's language project...
07:10:26 <evincar> ...but that's been done, or at least it was being done.
07:10:31 <evincar> I forget the name. Potion?
07:10:46 -!- calamari- has joined.
07:10:48 <evincar> Yeah, Potion.
07:10:55 <quintopia> originality is key, here
07:11:55 <evincar> Originality is hard to come by in a field that's about originality. Working on mainstream languages, you're not expected to be particularly innovative.
07:12:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:12:19 <quintopia> true that
07:12:23 <calamari-> cool neighbor lost power.. too bad for the moon, would be a good time for the telescope
07:12:29 <calamari-> neighborhood rather
07:13:15 <Gregor> jQuery might be unacceptably slow.
07:13:40 <evincar> Speed varies inversely as productivity?
07:14:01 -!- calamari has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
07:15:05 <calamari-> bbl.. Gregor tftf
07:15:21 <Gregor> I don't know what "tftf" means
07:15:28 -!- calamari- has quit (Client Quit).
07:15:47 <quintopia> gregorrrrrrrrrrrrrr
07:15:54 <quintopia> what is the goal of the planned game
07:17:31 <Gregor> I'm not sure yet X-D
07:17:57 * olsner has been reading the long cvs migration thread on the netbsd lists
07:18:00 <olsner> unfortunately they seem to be getting nowhere
07:18:21 <catseye> "tftf" means "true, false, true, false". he was trying to break your brain by toggling it too quickly.
07:18:24 <catseye> good night.
07:19:40 <Gregor> jQuery does everything better than I did, but it's SO slow :(
07:19:46 <Gregor> Load time is now almost insufferable ...
07:22:42 <evincar> Gregor: Using repeated lookups? Using plugins that are known to be performance-affecting? Using effects that create perceived lag rather than actual lag?
07:23:50 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
07:23:53 <Gregor> evincar: No plugins, there's a repeated traversal over the entire DOM that's more-or-less unavoidable because I need to change the .display type of nearly every element in the DOM before I can start caching their locations. But all the traversals are the same as I was doing raw, just now with jQuery. Plus now they work better :P
07:24:46 <quintopia> so you've just migrated that POC to jQuery?
07:24:52 <quintopia> and it's slow?
07:25:24 <Gregor> Only the initial load.
07:25:52 <quintopia> so it would rule out a game which involves tunneling to other pages quickly and repeatedly
07:26:06 <Gregor> After that it's fast.
07:26:25 <quintopia> how do you decide which elements to make into platforms?
07:26:56 <quintopia> so far, only H1s, Ps, a subset of IMGs, and As have been platforms
07:27:30 <Gregor> It's a pretty weird heuristic >_>
07:28:05 <Gregor> I played around with it and found something I liked.
07:28:05 <Gregor> Just a sec ...
07:28:24 <Gregor> Right, if a node has non-whitespace text children, OR it has no non-inline children at all, then it's a platform.
07:28:52 <quintopia> ah
07:28:56 <quintopia> seems good
07:31:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:31:06 <quintopia> another interface suggestion: make the first jumps smaller, but allow for in-air double and triple jumps that double and double again jump height resp.
07:31:24 <Gregor> That would be a powerup.
07:31:30 <Gregor> Assuming I can decide how you find powerups.
07:35:06 <Gregor> jQuery version now online.
07:35:53 <quintopia> erm
07:35:56 <quintopia> :/
07:36:02 <Gregor> ?
07:36:03 <quintopia> no worky?
07:36:15 <quintopia> trying to use here: http://eventactions.com/events-calendar/eastern-time/emory-college
07:36:15 <Gregor> Hmmm?
07:36:27 <quintopia> with same bookmark as before
07:37:05 <Gregor> Same bookmarklet as before won't work.
07:37:18 <quintopia> well, then
07:37:23 <quintopia> same link above at least?
07:37:26 <Gregor> I'm temporarily too lazy to actually put jQuery and my stuff in one file, so the bookmarklet now loads both :P
07:38:00 <Gregor> Yeah
07:38:19 <Gregor> Now, back to making it fast ...
07:38:35 <quintopia> wow that does take forever to load
07:39:43 <Gregor> What did you load it on?
07:42:35 <quintopia> ssame link above
07:42:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:43:27 <Gregor> Part of it is just Codu being slow, btw :P
07:47:17 <Gregor> By the way, if somebody wants to draw some transparent pngs in various relevant positions, I'd be ultra-thrilled to add them ;)
07:47:20 <quintopia> echo a loading... message to the status bar once the script has begun loading?
07:47:32 <quintopia> that ould give a hint how much is jquery and how much is codu
07:48:24 <quintopia> and what positions would you consider relevant?
07:49:36 <Gregor> Standing guy, running guy, jumping guy.
07:52:08 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:53:09 -!- tombom has joined.
07:55:15 <Gregor> I still have some issues with bounds >_>
07:56:19 <quintopia> how about gifs so the running guy can be properly animated?
07:56:32 * quintopia curses the lack of mng support in the world
07:57:07 <Gregor> Bleh @ gifs *sobblecopter*
07:57:14 <Gregor> How about animated gifs only for the parts that need animation :P
07:57:20 <Gregor> Wooh, fixed bounds issue.
07:58:58 <quintopia> well, what would be best is if all animation happened within your code, since you're gonna be swapping out graphics anyway
07:59:31 <Gregor> I could do that, not sure how fast it'd be.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:10 <quintopia> that way, position changes can be timed with posture changes appropriately
08:00:20 <quintopia> (yeah games are complicated that way :/)
08:01:46 <quintopia> there was this really neat windows program i used once way back in the day for creating cursors.
08:02:26 <quintopia> it gave you a super-large grid to fill in the pixels on, like 500x zoom by default
08:02:53 <quintopia> what's the closest thing to that for drawing sprites in linux?
08:03:04 <Gregor> I cannot for the life of me figure out why it thinks it needs to scroll up here ...
08:03:09 <Gregor> Not a clue.
08:07:02 <Gregor> Fixed once again by jQuery :P
08:08:21 <Gregor> Damn it jQuery, stop solving all my problems!
08:09:42 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]).
08:09:51 <quintopia> impossible
08:09:56 <quintopia> jQuery solves every problem
08:12:13 <Gregor> Hmmm, this KINDA works on Chrome. Better than it did before.
08:13:42 <quintopia> http://www.doxdesk.com/img/updates/20091116-so-large.gif
08:13:51 <quintopia> proof that jquery solves every problem
08:15:07 <Ilari> Seems like approximate rate IPv4 addresses are allocated is about 10 per second...
08:16:31 <quintopia> we still have enough to last for YEARS
08:16:36 <quintopia> ...right?
08:16:53 <Ilari> Well, two at most...
08:18:37 <Ilari> And IANA pool is likely going to run dry on early March to early June next year...
08:22:12 <quintopia> nothing like running out of numbers to accelerate the move to v6
08:23:07 -!- atrapado has joined.
08:25:39 <Ilari> Except that it could cause IPv6 migration plans that look like: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/12/our-disaster-recovery-plan.png
08:35:56 <quintopia> gregor: http://www.aseprite.org/
08:36:56 <quintopia> ilari: y2k didn't look like that. it got fixed before it broke anything. why is that?
08:38:52 <Ilari> Self-dispelling prophecy... :-)
08:42:09 <quintopia> so if you're predicting ipv4 disaster...does that mean nothing interesting will happen?
08:44:28 <Gregor> quintopia: The reason I wanted somebody else to do it for me is that I'm sprite-incompetent :P
08:44:53 <Ilari> I was saying about Y2K. Don't know if the drumming about IPv4 address exhaustion is hard enough.
08:48:31 <Ilari> Similar counter of IPv6 would likely be fun to see. Much bigger numbers and much faster countdown.
08:55:23 <Ilari> Fun fact: Currently only 1/8th of IPv6 address space is for unicast use. Most of IPv6 addresses are of undefined kind.
09:01:31 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:19:53 -!- catseye has joined.
09:20:44 -!- evincar has joined.
09:24:29 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:29:38 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
09:40:04 <Rugxulo> anybody here mess with FALSE?
09:40:20 <quintopia> gregor: http://filebin.ca/qxuvnd
09:40:47 <quintopia> i'm not that competent either, but this'll do for now
09:41:07 <quintopia> (this is only left-to-right running)
09:41:40 <quintopia> mirror for right-to-left, stop animating for jump?
09:50:28 <quintopia> also, frames 0 and 2 should be 115ms, and frames 1 and 3 100ms for smooth running
10:10:36 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]).
10:12:18 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
10:28:45 -!- dbc has joined.
10:50:18 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split).
10:51:09 -!- pikhq has joined.
10:56:16 -!- tombom has joined.
10:56:16 -!- tombom has quit (Changing host).
10:56:16 -!- tombom has joined.
11:03:36 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
12:00:40 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:07:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
12:15:38 <Vorpal> argh, I hate cards with low quality magnetic strips.
12:27:42 <fizzie> I hate how our cluster has for some unfathomable reason stopped sending out the "job started" / "job ended" notification emails. They were useful in noticing when things were finished without extra polling, since I keep looking at emails anyway.
12:45:14 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:59:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
13:00:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, write a shell script to poll it?
13:02:08 <fizzie> And send my own emails? Well, I guess I *could*, but since it already has the feature.
13:10:55 <fizzie> It's scheduled with SLURM, which has all kinds of nifty little tricks, like a dependency thing so that you can say "run D only after A, B and C have finished" (s/and/or/ or s/finished/started/ or other options also available).
13:11:04 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I wonder what it would do with circular dependencies.
13:12:41 <fizzie> Probably they'd just boringly stay in the queue until canceled.
13:17:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could make the script notify you in some other way. Anyway if you make that poll using cron it would be trivial to send email: just echo what you want to send
13:17:22 <Vorpal> and the cron daemon will send it
13:19:08 <fizzie> It's still a fact that the queue scheduler system should take care of that sort of stuff. I don't think we're supposed to be setting up all kinds of silly little cron jobs on the cluster front-end node, anyway.
13:21:27 <fizzie> Heh, decided to go check out the fancy Ganglia web-frontend of the cluster status; normally it shows all kinds of CPU/mem usage plots and other things like that you'd expect, but now it just says: "Cannot find any metrics for selected cluster "Triton", exiting. Check ganglia XML tree (telnet 8652)"
13:21:33 <Vorpal> oh god, arch is switching /usr/bin/python to mean python3
13:21:50 <Vorpal> this will cause havoc for sure
13:21:53 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure localhost:8652 won't help me here.
13:22:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe report it to whoever is the sysadmin?
13:23:22 <fizzie> If they don't notice it, sure. Though I'm not quite sure who's responsible. We have a department-internal issue tracker, but that thing is of wider scope.
13:38:58 -!- elliott has joined.
13:39:26 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, arch linux went insane, /usr/bin/python is now python3...
13:42:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Hahahaha
13:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Is that a default?
13:42:59 <elliott> Oh god it is
13:43:06 <elliott> "any program requiring 2.x needs to point to /usr/bin/python2 instead"
13:43:07 <elliott> tl;dr
13:43:13 <elliott> any python program ever requires modification tor un
13:43:14 <elliott> *to run
13:43:26 <elliott> Vorpal: but don't you see?! Arch is for people on the EDGE, we don't care if shit works as long as it's NEW!
13:43:38 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, wtf. You go make kitten usable right now :P
13:43:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Gimme a grant and it'll be 1.0 in weeks
13:43:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not going to switch to a non-rolling-release. And I'm not going to go gentoo
13:44:18 <Vorpal> elliott, any suggestions?
13:44:33 <elliott> Vorpal: I... well, no, that's sort of why I'm doing Kitten. pikhq also concluded that there's basically nothing.
13:44:38 <elliott> Vorpal: There are very few rolling release distros.
13:46:55 <Vorpal> elliott, requirements for me: rolling release, reasonably up-to-date (so nothing as outdated as, say, debian stable), allows easy tweaking of system without it trying to get in the way, not source-based. And hm probably linux kernel too. Well freebsd can support nvidia drivers iirc so...
13:47:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Kitten is NetBSD-based, as I said.
13:47:54 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, well, I'll just port it to kitten/linux. I mean, it balances out against debian/bsd so that's okay
13:47:58 <elliott> Vorpal: I, uh, try nouveau. Nvidia's driver *is* an OS-independent binary blob and a kernel interface, so you could port it, but nobody really has recently
13:48:24 <Vorpal> elliott, nouveau does not yet 3D, which I um, need
13:48:41 <Vorpal> at least it didn't when I checked about a month ago
13:48:48 <elliott> "Any 3D functionality that might exist is still unsupported. Do not ask for instructions to try it. But you can read GalliumHowto in case you are brave enough."
13:48:56 <elliott> sounds like it exists but they don't like to admit it
13:48:57 <elliott> :P
13:49:01 <elliott> maybe not though
13:49:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I looked at that, and at best it was partial for some chipsets, nothing at all for my chipset
13:49:41 * Vorpal prepares to reboot for kernel upgrade
13:49:52 <elliott> Vorpal: isn't there another nvidia driver? :/
13:50:12 <Vorpal> Traceback (most recent call last):
13:50:12 <Vorpal> File "/usr/bin/denyhosts.py", line 5, in <module>
13:50:12 <Vorpal> import DenyHosts.python2_version
13:50:12 <Vorpal> ImportError: No module named python2_version
13:50:14 <Vorpal> right
13:50:20 <Vorpal> they even fail to package stuff
13:50:57 <elliott> lawl
13:52:10 <Vorpal> removing the last bit on that line worked, as in, plain old "import DenyHosts"
13:52:17 <Vorpal> will file a bug after I rebooted for kernel upgrade
13:53:53 <elliott> Vorpal: I hereby file a bug in your system, you have proprietary components that refuse to work with software. I suggest replacing the broken element with an Intel card. :-P
13:54:08 <elliott> Or at least ATI, since they have good open-source drivers.
13:54:20 <elliott> (More gooderer, at least.)
13:54:32 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah, you find me one that is AGP and as fast
13:54:38 <elliott> Vorpal: AGP?
13:54:41 <elliott> I file a bug in your system.
13:54:42 <elliott> It uses AGP.
13:54:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yes my system is outdated
13:54:52 <elliott> I suggest you apply a sledgehammer fix.
13:54:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I do not have the money to upgrade currently.
13:55:11 <Vorpal> elliott, besides: don't fix what isn't broken
13:55:16 <Vorpal> as long as it works...
13:55:20 <elliott> Totally is broken, it can't run NetBSD.
13:55:35 <elliott> Well, quickly.
13:56:08 <elliott> Vorpal: But fine, finding an AGP card now. >:)
13:56:30 <Vorpal> elliott, old card was: geforce 7600 GS
13:56:34 <Vorpal> need to be at least as good
13:57:22 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709%20600007850&IsNodeId=1&name=AGP%204X/8X
13:57:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Pick a Radeon :P
13:58:28 <Vorpal> elliott, will recheck that when I get back after rebooting, I don't think it works in w3m and atm the nvidia userland/kernel module are out of sync, so can't start X.
13:58:30 <Vorpal> brb
14:01:16 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:02:08 <elliott> hi ais523
14:02:20 <ais523> hi
14:02:40 <ais523> gah, why do the seminars on Tuesday always have to be coincidentally relevant to what I was doing the week before?
14:03:29 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:03:39 <elliott> ais523: You realise now that if you work on a cure to cancer this week, next Tuesday...
14:03:47 <elliott> Use your power for good!
14:04:02 <ais523> elliott: well, I do multiple things in a week, it's only ever relevant to one of them, usually
14:04:12 <elliott> ais523: Dedicate an entire week to curing cancer.
14:05:46 <ais523> hmm, prediction for IPv4 exhaustion's around 9 or 10 months
14:05:54 <ais523> that could be... interesting... when it happens
14:06:15 <elliott> ais523: omg #esoteric totally needs to host an IPv4 Exhaustion party
14:06:17 <elliott> i'll bring popcorn
14:06:28 <elliott> someone bring lots of displays to put graphs and visualisations on
14:06:36 <ais523> that would be great
14:07:21 -!- Vorpal has joined.
14:07:32 * elliott wonders what happened to IPv6
14:07:34 <elliott> *IPv5
14:08:16 <elliott> ah, apparently the protocol number was used by something else
14:08:19 <ais523> IPv5 is an unrelated protocol, IIRC
14:08:20 <elliott> or something
14:08:46 <elliott> what i don't like about ipv6 is how willy-nilly people are giving out utterly gigantic ipv6 allocations
14:08:49 <elliott> sure we have an awful lot of space
14:08:54 <elliott> but didn't you learn anything from last time?!
14:09:12 <ais523> I thought IPv6 was designed so that everyone, no matter how major or minor, got a /64?
14:09:16 <elliott> "Version number 5 was used by the Internet Stream Protocol, an experimental streaming protocol." right
14:09:25 <elliott> ais523: there are larger allocations
14:09:29 <elliott> but i think /64 is the minimum or something
14:09:42 <ais523> what plausible reason would you need for something larger than a /64?
14:09:51 <elliott> ais523: allocations range from, like, ipv4 address space ("tiny!") to ... an utterly ridiculous number of ipv4 address spacse
14:09:52 <ais523> /64 is so many IPs, I can't even visualise the number
14:09:54 <elliott> *spaces
14:09:55 <elliott> how big is /64?
14:10:01 <elliott> i suck at /foo
14:10:04 <ais523> same as a 64-bit integer
14:10:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:10:10 <elliott> RIP ais523
14:10:31 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:10:36 <elliott> wb ais523
14:10:37 <ais523> [14:09] <elliott> i suck at /foo
14:10:38 <elliott> anyway
14:10:39 <ais523> [14:09] <ais523> same as a 64-bit integer
14:10:40 <ais523> [14:09] <ais523> around 16*10^18
14:10:41 <elliott> right
14:10:44 <ais523> IRC just disconnected for no obvious reason
14:10:46 <elliott> saw the first one of those
14:10:54 <elliott> ais523: you can definitely get /128 iirc
14:10:58 * coppro starts an election campaign
14:10:58 <elliott> i think /32 is the smallest
14:11:00 <elliott> ipv4 address space
14:11:08 <ais523> no, /32 is the largest
14:11:11 <ais523> the values work in reverse
14:11:14 <elliott> oh right
14:11:15 <elliott> fff
14:11:16 <elliott> you know what i meant
14:11:17 <elliott> *mean
14:11:20 <ais523> an IPv4 address space would be a /96
14:11:21 <elliott> 32-bit is the smallest
14:11:33 <elliott> ask Vorpal :P
14:11:42 <ais523> which is still large; not quite incomprehensibly large, though, just "about half the population of the world"
14:11:44 <Vorpal> there, back
14:12:10 <elliott> ais523: there aren't 8 billion people alive!
14:12:22 <ais523> elliott: I was approximating
14:12:36 <elliott> ais523: strange approximation :)
14:12:44 <coppro> closer to two-thirds
14:12:47 <Ilari> Isn't current IANA IPv6 unicast address pool at something like 99%?
14:12:56 <coppro> Ilari: of course
14:13:00 <elliott> Vorpal: what's the smallest/biggest ipv6 allocations?
14:13:03 <coppro> and it will be for a very long time
14:13:04 <elliott> smallest is /96 right?
14:13:05 <Vorpal> <elliott> [15:08:22] what i don't like about ipv6 is how willy-nilly people are giving out utterly gigantic ipv6 allocations <-- they are trying to make route aggregation more feasible
14:13:06 <ais523> 6,697,254,041 in 2008, according to Google
14:13:11 <ais523> I think it's over 7 billion by now
14:13:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well, any size is possible
14:13:21 <Vorpal> but from whom?
14:13:28 <elliott> Vorpal: you know what i meant.
14:13:29 * ais523 thinks that value is suspiciously precise
14:13:31 <elliott> most common allocations
14:13:43 <elliott> ais523: it's the sum of all the estimated populations of countries, i think
14:13:50 <coppro> Alpha says 6.79 billion as of last year
14:13:59 <elliott> ais523: which are usually census results or records or whatever + some fudge factor for everyone they missed
14:14:03 <elliott> i think
14:14:17 <coppro> by current trends we have about 2 more years to hit 7 billion
14:14:31 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I have a /48 from sixxs, and I use a /64 of that for my LAN. You don't want less than /64 really, the stateless auto-configuration is based on filling in the mac for the last bit of the ip so...
14:14:38 <Vorpal> err, less = smaller
14:14:44 <elliott> ais523: /48.
14:14:57 <Vorpal> elliott, on the other hand I heard of cases for /125 and other such
14:15:03 <elliott> SO YEAH people are pretty much throwing away ipv6 address space because there's a lot of it
14:15:10 <ais523> a /125 would contain just 6 addressible addresses?
14:15:23 <fizzie> For point-to-point tunnels I've seen /126's being used.
14:15:25 <coppro> yeah, typically end user points get /64 iirc
14:15:26 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, it isn't commonly used
14:15:44 <elliott> /46. really.
14:15:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, a /62 or would be reasonable for end-user. That would allow a few subnets if you really wanted it.
14:16:14 <coppro> IPv6 design is fundamentally "make it bloody impossible to screw this up
14:16:18 <coppro> (and they will screw this up)
14:16:32 <elliott> coppro: giving anyone a /46 is just unbelievable...
14:16:38 <Vorpal> elliott, /48 I said
14:16:40 <elliott> this is a *home* user or a *single* corporation
14:16:42 <elliott> 48, right
14:16:42 <elliott> typo
14:16:49 <elliott> there is *no way* they will use all those up!
14:16:55 <elliott> if they do
14:16:56 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed it is
14:17:00 <elliott> give them some more!
14:17:00 <coppro> a large corporation might want a /48
14:17:08 <coppro> but most would not
14:17:09 <elliott> so why not just make it designed for small allocations
14:17:10 <elliott> and stack them?
14:17:13 <Vorpal> coppro, only because of routing
14:17:16 <elliott> coppro: you do realise /48 is bigger than ipv4?
14:17:20 <coppro> elliott: yes
14:17:28 <coppro> but the ability to conveniently divide it up is key
14:17:29 <Vorpal> elliott, a /64 is bigger than ipv4 too
14:17:42 <coppro> a corporation might allocate a /40 to each country it operates in, a /32 to each region, etc.
14:17:51 <coppro> but we're talking multinationals here
14:17:53 <Vorpal> coppro, indeed, please explain about /64 and ipv6 stateless autoconfigure to elliott.
14:18:01 <fizzie> "All Global Unicast addresses other than those that start with binary 000 have a 64-bit interface ID field (i.e., n + m = 64) [read: it shouldn't really be subnetted to anything below /64], formatted as described in Section 2.5.1."
14:18:03 <Vorpal> coppro, a /32? what?
14:18:09 <Vorpal> coppro, you are counting from the wrong end
14:18:13 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709%20600007850%20600030349&IsNodeId=1&name=ATI AGP ATI cards
14:18:20 <elliott> *AGP ATI cards (just highlighting it :P)
14:18:26 <coppro> Vorpal: err, sorry
14:18:30 <coppro> yeah, I am
14:18:38 <elliott> <Vorpal> coppro, indeed, please explain about /64 and ipv6 stateless autoconfigure to elliott.
14:18:46 <elliott> how do you know i'm not criticising the designs that lead to such large alloactions too?
14:18:48 <ais523> esr is, incidentally, working on an RFC for encoding INTERCAL programs in IPv6 addresses
14:18:50 <elliott> *allocations
14:18:52 <ais523> which is arguably even more wasteful
14:18:58 <elliott> ais523: i suggest we shoot him to death.
14:19:00 <coppro> esr? really?
14:19:08 <elliott> coppro: esr is the authro of C-INTERCAL...
14:19:09 <elliott> *author
14:19:11 <coppro> oh
14:19:14 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway for a LAN you want a /64. Due to stateless autoconfig (which is nice, don't deny it, dhcp is a sucky mess) that is reasonable.
14:19:19 <ais523> elliott: I don't
14:19:22 <elliott> demonstrating the height of his coding skill
14:19:31 <elliott> sorry, wait, no, that's FETCHMAIL
14:19:34 <elliott> ais523: but... but
14:19:39 <coppro> for release roughly 5.5 months from now
14:20:08 <elliott> *roughly* 5.5 months?
14:20:26 <elliott> "Roughly 4 hours, 57 minutes and 29.32 seconds from now, I will..."
14:20:26 <fizzie> For the record, even the "not really a very big" ISP I use at home has a /32: 2001:1bc8::/32, FI-NBLNETWORKS-20040525.
14:20:26 <Vorpal> elliott, no, roughly 5.5018375 months
14:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, actually "5 and a half month" isn't that extreme
14:20:52 <ais523> waiting for April Fool's would be ridiculous, C-INTERCAL's pretty much ready for release in its current state
14:20:58 <elliott> "5.5" though :P
14:21:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it is shorter to write :P
14:21:07 <elliott> ais523: is he just going to release it with all your modifications and claim it as his own?
14:21:12 <ais523> although I'd appreciate more testing on platforms I don't have access too, the fact that it's running fine in DOSBox indicates that it is at least not completely nonportable
14:21:14 <ais523> elliott: I doubt it
14:21:23 <elliott> ais523: maybe he'll ignore all your modifications instead
14:21:28 <coppro> elliott: of course
14:21:28 <ais523> I doubt that too
14:21:31 <Vorpal> ais523, what happened to my patches?
14:21:34 <ais523> he's likely to just call me comaintainer
14:21:37 <coppro> an RFC like that can only be written on one day
14:21:41 <ais523> Vorpal: the Mac Classic patches, I still haven't really looked at
14:21:45 <ais523> the other patches are in there, though
14:21:54 <Vorpal> ais523, so the generic ones got integrated? Nice.
14:22:11 <ais523> Vorpal: I mean, the ones in the Mac Classic bundle, even the generic ones, I haven't really looked at
14:22:22 <ais523> the patches you submitted via unrelated means are in there, and have been for a while
14:22:54 <elliott> ais523: are you going to stop releasing your own versions?
14:22:56 <elliott> please don't
14:23:02 <elliott> i couldn't stomach downloading esr software
14:23:03 <elliott> :)
14:23:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, a /32? ... okay that is just silly.
14:23:10 <elliott> ais523: call it the -mm tree
14:23:26 <Vorpal> elliott, why -mm, his name is nothing like that
14:23:26 <ais523> elliott: I don't really get the concept of revulsion at software based on who technically owns it
14:23:47 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mm_tree
14:23:51 <Vorpal> ais523, technically a lot of people own different parts of it
14:23:53 <pikhq> elliott: The idea of IPv6 is to have *so incredibly many more* addresses that they can do wasteful things with the allocations just to make routing easier.
14:23:53 <elliott> ais523: it was more a joke
14:24:03 <elliott> ais523: but, your releases are more likely to be frequent and debugged than esr's, I suspect
14:24:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, it's an ISP. They're quite "high up" when it comes to routing.
14:24:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I know what the -mm tree is...
14:24:06 <elliott> even if it's mostly your changes
14:24:09 <elliott> in the real one
14:24:13 <elliott> Vorpal: he isn't called Mandrew Morton
14:24:17 <elliott> "Historically, the -mm tree focused on new developments for the memory management part of the kernel (mm)."
14:24:26 <elliott> -- but it extended to general-everything
14:24:29 <Vorpal> elliott, well, -mm still makes no sense for ais523 here
14:24:32 <elliott> and so it ceased being an acronym, really
14:24:37 <elliott> Vorpal: "experimental development tree"
14:24:49 <ais523> elliott: actually, ESR's big new feature for the upcoming release is a testsuite
14:25:18 <ais523> although he just used existing programs, and had to ask me what many of them did
14:26:01 <ais523> then I wrote a fuzztest for the optimiser
14:26:04 <ais523> which actually caught quite a few bugs
14:27:14 <elliott> ais523: he can't actually code intercal, can he?
14:27:33 <elliott> so, will you still release your EXPERIMENTAL AIS523 BRANCH or will it all be through esr now?
14:27:52 <Vorpal> ais523, where is the darcs repo for it?
14:28:15 <Vorpal> (or other repo for that matter)
14:28:39 <elliott> Vorpal: see, esr actually follows the cathedral model (afaik)
14:28:44 <Gregor> OK, webplat now has proper fallthrough and POWAHJUMP
14:28:49 <Vorpal> elliott, that would be extremely ironic
14:28:50 <elliott> Gregor: You're... making it?
14:28:55 <elliott> Vorpal: indeed
14:28:56 <Gregor> elliott: I'M AWESOME
14:28:59 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webplat/
14:29:11 <Ilari> IANA has seemingly allocated 5.116 /12s of IPv6 unicast address space. There are 512 /12s total. So IANA IPv6 pool is at 99%.
14:29:12 <elliott> It... I see nothing.
14:29:18 <elliott> Oh isee
14:29:20 <elliott> it's a bookmark
14:29:21 <elliott> *i see
14:29:55 <ais523> Vorpal: http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal
14:30:02 <elliott> Gregor: I can't fall off the page, dude. Force html to full height/width and migrate margins to body or whatever
14:30:03 <ais523> = git://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal.git
14:30:05 <elliott> So I can fall properly :P
14:30:10 <elliott> And, uh, body full height urgh i don't know
14:30:17 <Gregor> elliott: You CAN fall off the page.
14:30:24 <elliott> Gregor: Not off /webplat/ you can't.
14:30:25 <Gregor> You can drop through elements.
14:30:29 <Gregor> Yes, off /webplat/ you can.
14:30:33 <Gregor> Because you can drop through elements.
14:30:34 <elliott> Gregor: I triwed.
14:30:35 <elliott> *tried.
14:30:41 <elliott> I stop a bit below the last paragraph.
14:30:49 <Gregor> Ohohoh
14:30:54 <elliott> Because of heights.
14:30:55 <Gregor> Frowny face means you fell off :P
14:31:08 <elliott> Gregor: You... suck
14:31:42 <Vorpal> Gregor, 2 hours? that long
14:31:44 <Vorpal> huh
14:31:57 <elliott> ...
14:32:02 <elliott> Vorpal has never coded anything.
14:32:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, I would expect full featured 3D by then!
14:32:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, and custom music and so on
14:32:23 <Vorpal> elliott, you fail at humour
14:32:25 <elliott> Gregor: Plz add a textbox with the link for those of us who don't have bookmark bars :P
14:32:36 <elliott> Vorpal:
14:32:38 <elliott> <Vorpal> Gregor, 2 hours? that long
14:32:39 <elliott> <Vorpal> huh
14:32:40 <elliott> Not funny, just stupid.
14:32:43 <elliott> Big difference.
14:32:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Grmbl).
14:32:49 <Vorpal> elliott, you didn't include the next two lines
14:32:53 <Gregor> elliott: Right-click, copy link or whatever :P
14:32:57 <elliott> Vorpal:
14:32:58 <elliott> <Vorpal> Gregor, 2 hours? that long
14:32:58 <elliott> <Vorpal> huh
14:32:58 <elliott> <elliott> ...
14:32:58 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal has never coded anything.
14:33:02 <elliott> Gregor: For some reason I can't copy that particular link.
14:33:02 <Vorpal> elliott, not here
14:33:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Here.
14:33:10 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> Gregor, 2 hours? that long
14:33:11 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> huh
14:33:11 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> Gregor, I would expect full featured 3D by then!
14:33:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> ...
14:33:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal has never coded anything.
14:33:16 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, you fail at humour
14:33:19 <elliott> OMG NETWORK LAG
14:33:20 <elliott> HOW AMAZING
14:33:27 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
14:33:35 <elliott> Gregor: Invisible elements should so fall-through.
14:33:41 <elliott> (Like the ones on google.co.uk)
14:33:49 <Gregor> That's the idea.
14:33:56 <Gregor> However, it's not always easy to tell whether they're visible or not.
14:34:31 <elliott> Gregor: Are you meant to be able to double-jump?
14:34:49 <Gregor> Yes.
14:34:58 <Gregor> Double-jump is also power-jump, it lets you jump up through certain elements.
14:35:01 <ais523> is this turning web pages into platform games?
14:35:10 <ais523> that's kind-of nifty
14:35:11 <Gregor> ais523: Eventually :P
14:35:18 <elliott> Gregor: I... it freezes reddit.
14:35:26 <elliott> Holy shit horizontal scrollbar what
14:35:32 <Vorpal> elliott, ?
14:35:41 <elliott> See above
14:35:45 <Gregor> God damn it elliott, stop blaming me for the fact that this shit is super-complicated to do :P
14:35:52 <elliott> I'm not :P
14:35:56 <elliott> But you totally need to be perfect.
14:36:05 <ais523> Vorpal: what do you think of the repo?
14:36:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, why does it show "h1" in the upper corner for <h1> but not, say, "p" or such for such blocks
14:36:08 <elliott> Gregor: Okay on reddit.com you definitely start out dead.
14:36:25 <Gregor> Vorpal: It shows that for everything you touch.
14:36:28 <elliott> <ais523> Vorpal: what do you think of the repo? ;; subtle, subtle.
14:36:32 <Gregor> Vorpal: Including "P" and whatnot. If you don't see it, your browser asplode?
14:36:33 <Vorpal> ais523, well, it is git://, would prefer something I could look at in the browser
14:36:49 <ais523> Vorpal: as in http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/trees/master
14:36:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm
14:36:53 <ais523> ?
14:36:55 <ais523> I'm not sure what you mean
14:37:01 <Vorpal> ais523, ah yeah that is what i meant
14:37:03 <ais523> (? on a separate line to stop it ending up as part of the URL)
14:37:09 <ais523> (really, I should have used angle brackets)
14:37:16 <elliott> Gregor: Slashdot keyboard shortcuts clash :(
14:37:23 <elliott> :P
14:37:35 <Vorpal> ais523, well what I think of the repo: "it's a repo, yeah"
14:37:46 <ais523> that's... quite a thought
14:38:10 <elliott> Gregor: Somehow loading it twice seems to help.
14:38:13 <elliott> Sometimes.
14:38:22 <Vorpal> ais523, well, what am I supposed to think of a repo. It is just a repo, with a .git in it and so on!
14:38:23 <Gregor> elliott: Help ... what?
14:38:28 <elliott> Gregor: Help it ... work.
14:38:34 <elliott> Gregor: Sweet, it turns "free encyclopedia" into "freeencyclopedia" on Wikipedia's main page.
14:38:36 <Vorpal> ais523, would have preferred darcs of course
14:38:42 <ais523> Vorpal: normally, people would have some opinions on the contents
14:38:49 <elliott> I thought that the Wikipedians had resolved the long-term dispute about that line with a neologism.
14:38:49 <Vorpal> ais523, I haven't had time to look at it
14:38:53 <elliott> Which is very them.
14:38:53 <Gregor> elliott: It actually works pretty well on Wikipedia entries too.
14:39:00 <ais523> I'd have preferred darcs too really, but I don't have the experience in repo reconstruction that esr does
14:39:06 <ais523> apparently, he's had to do it quite a lot before
14:39:15 <Vorpal> ais523, I expect it contains c-intercal.
14:39:27 <Vorpal> looks somewhat cleaned up though
14:39:31 <ais523> and there's nothing wrong with git; it just makes things a bit more complex and frustrating than darcs does
14:39:33 <Vorpal> ais523, did you drop the prebuilt thingies?
14:39:41 <Vorpal> ais523, if so, you broke mac
14:39:43 <Vorpal> it needs them
14:39:49 <ais523> Vorpal: not from the distribution tarball
14:39:51 <ais523> but they aren't in the repo
14:39:53 <Vorpal> ais523, ah
14:40:21 <Vorpal> ais523, I presume you tested with cfunge? I don't have time to right atm
14:40:36 <Vorpal> might do it in the weekend
14:40:43 <ais523> Vorpal: I did
14:41:41 <Vorpal> http://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/blobs/master/src/perpet.c <-- hm, "Copyright (C) 1996 Eric S. Raymond", shouldn't it include me and you as well? I'm no legal expert however
14:42:20 <ais523> Vorpal: copyright notices in C-INTERCAL have always just stated the original author of the file
14:42:25 <Vorpal> ah okay
14:42:27 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if that's technically correct or not, but it's what happened
14:42:31 <ais523> (also, the original date too)
14:42:43 <ais523> unravel.c, for instance, just has an Alex Smith copyright
14:42:49 <ais523> arguably because nobody else understands it enough to patch it
14:45:12 <Vorpal> ais523, what is that file for now again?
14:45:23 <ais523> runtime support for threading
14:47:28 <Vorpal> ah
14:48:15 <Vorpal> ais523, which file had the path code?
14:48:24 <ais523> "path code"?
14:48:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:48:46 <Vorpal> ais523, that one of my patches fixed, it was generating // and such in paths
14:48:57 <ais523> oh, probably either perpet.c or uncommon.c
14:49:14 <Vorpal> not perpet, and I can't find it in uncommon
14:49:26 <Vorpal> maybe it was cesspool?
14:49:40 <ais523> that seems a little implausible, cesspool mostly doesn't care about files
14:49:59 <Vorpal> hm
14:50:08 <ais523> elliott: as for authorship of the next release, the NEWS file is split up by who actually made the change
14:50:20 <ais523> esr and Vorpal have about the same number of changes; Joris is just behind, I have considerably more
14:50:24 <elliott> ais523: what i mean is -- will you still release tarballs via your own channels?
14:50:30 <elliott> or will you only be a contributor to esr's releases?
14:50:33 <ais523> I don't have any channels
14:50:38 <Vorpal> ais523, I only had like a hanful of changes iirc?
14:50:39 <elliott> ais523: Well, sure you do.
14:50:42 <Vorpal> handful*
14:50:48 <elliott> ais523: You release C-INTERCAL.
14:50:52 <ais523> mostly, I just announced the new release on Usenet, emailed it to anyone who asked, then linked to it once someone put it online
14:51:03 <ais523> it's an unusual way to do software releases
14:51:11 <elliott> ais523: esr will obviously go by his own schedule and want to put his own changes in before release.
14:51:17 <ais523> his own changes are in already
14:51:19 <elliott> So will you keep releasing your "development" releases however?
14:51:25 <elliott> ais523: How do you know he'll never make more?
14:51:29 <ais523> elliott: I never did release development releases
14:51:36 <elliott> ais523: I know that.
14:51:40 <ais523> apart from that beta a while back, because I wanted something in time for april fool's
14:51:48 <elliott> ais523: I meant that to keep the peace with esr they'd be called development releases. It was a joke.
14:51:49 <Ilari> Then there's APNIC policy that anyone that has IPv4 allocation from APNIC but no IPv6 addresses can get a /32 without any justification and For IPv4 allocation but no IPv6 addresses can get a /48 without any justification.
14:51:50 <ais523> with the repo online, it seems implausible that an actual release is needed before it's finished
14:51:55 <Vorpal> ais523, hm did you integrate my patch from the mac stuff to fix path code?
14:52:02 <Vorpal> after all, it was generic
14:52:09 <ais523> Vorpal: as I said, I haven't really looked at those patches
14:52:22 <elliott> ais523: So the choice is between waiting for esr to decide this is a great time to release and fishing through the repo for a semi-stable version?
14:52:23 <elliott> Woooooo.
14:52:24 <Vorpal> ais523, a lot of them were generic and at least one or two fixed serious bugs
14:52:26 -!- catseye has joined.
14:52:37 <ais523> elliott: well, the current repo version is pretty stable
14:52:50 <Ilari> The first is 79 228 162 514 264 337 593 543 950 336 addresses...
14:52:52 <ais523> the only thing I really want to do before release is check the documentation for inaccuracies and typos
14:52:58 <elliott> ais523: Now, sure... Wait until esr decides it needs a fun fun rewrite of several components.
14:53:04 <ais523> he wouldn't dare
14:53:07 <ais523> as in, code-wise
14:53:10 <ais523> I doubt most people would
14:53:20 <ais523> even I don't dare to try to rewrite anything in C-INTERCAL nowadays
14:53:23 <elliott> ais523: Dude, esr is stupid enough to do anything.
14:53:26 <elliott> He wrote *fetchmail*.
14:53:40 <ais523> you seem to have a pretty low opinion...
14:53:57 <ais523> I mean, you can be annoyed at someone, or not like what they're doing
14:53:58 <elliott> Well, yes, I do :p
14:53:59 <Vorpal> ais523, and include the generic fixes, after all, without one of them, the generated C code is technically not valid.
14:54:06 <ais523> but you seem to have the sort of hatred of ESR that most people reserve for Microsoft
14:54:42 <Vorpal> hah
14:55:24 <elliott> ais523: His sociopolitical opinions are beyond idiotic and childish. He took the Jargon File, made it stupider, and then had it eclipse the original. He appointed himself leader of the Open Source Movement by parroting things that are either obvious or just wrong, and got immense fame and respect for it.
14:55:26 <elliott> And he wrote fetchmail.
14:55:31 <elliott> Oh, and he's a bigot.
14:55:53 <elliott> So... idiotic, intolerant, self-promoting and fetchmail-writing. I mean, it does add up...
14:56:19 <elliott> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/show-them-the-code
14:56:23 <elliott> (relevant comic)
14:56:30 <ais523> from what I've learnt from working with him, his main issue is doing without things without thinking of the implications
14:56:39 <ais523> like the botched attempt to simplify the build system
14:56:45 <ais523> it did motivate me to simplify it properly, though
14:56:49 <elliott> ais523: oh yeah, he also wrote that article about how you can channel gods to be great at sex.
14:56:52 <elliott> although i can't find it now
14:57:05 <elliott> that was... possibly the worst sequence of bytes i have ever experienced
14:57:11 <Ilari> Oh, and there is also AS number exhaustion... There is BGP extension for 32-bit AS numbers (standard BGP ASes are 16 bits)...
14:58:57 <catseye> "doing without things without thinking of the implications"... isn't that "generalized fail"?
14:59:07 <elliott> ais523: oh, he also flamed the Fedora dudes because he did something stupid and it broke his system, then pledged his allegiance to Linspire
14:59:09 <elliott> then Ubuntu
14:59:23 <ais523> people pledge allegiance to distros?
14:59:24 <elliott> because it can't possibly be *my* fault, I'm the leader of the Open Source Movement!
14:59:26 <ais523> does that even make sense?
14:59:27 <catseye> his allegience counts for so much
14:59:27 <elliott> ais523: esr does.
15:03:34 <ais523> elliott: opinions: deal between Facebook and Bing. Good idea?
15:03:39 <elliott> ais523: WHAT
15:03:43 <elliott> this is news to me
15:03:45 <ais523> really?
15:03:51 <elliott> yes, which surprises me too
15:04:18 <ais523> Google news gives loads of results
15:04:46 <ais523> presumably, some more trustworthy than others
15:05:03 <elliott> ais523: oh dear, bing results based on facebook connections?
15:05:10 <elliott> good thing bing is *already* useless
15:05:22 <ais523> elliott: I think the idea is that it's linked to the facebook "like" buttons
15:05:27 <elliott> yeah nothx
15:05:42 <ais523> so that if some of your friends "like" something, it's more likely to show up in your search results
15:05:49 <ais523> this does seem a little ridiculous
15:05:56 <elliott> it may simply be another search mode, dunno
15:05:58 <elliott> article wasn't claer
15:05:59 <elliott> *clear
15:06:33 <ais523> (incidentally, what bing's advertised as doing is exactly what I don't want a search engine to do; the reason I block cookies from Google, and nowhere else, is that it tries to customize search results based on searches and I prefer search engines to act literalistically)
15:07:50 <elliott> Let's invade the Linux Mark Institute!
15:09:21 <catseye> ais523: the internet -- protecting you from the internet since about 1999
15:10:26 <ais523> the internet doesn't really make much sense, but then neither does anything else in life
15:10:49 <ais523> it's probably best to just assume it's a force of nature, and try to figure out how it behaves scientifically
15:12:49 <elliott> the internet shouldn't work really, the fact that it does is impressive
15:13:07 <elliott> and it's a wonderful autonomous mind, really, we just need to cut off those little bits of centralisation
15:13:11 <elliott> (e.g. root servers)
15:13:41 <ais523> hmm, is there anything that works both in practice and in theory?
15:13:46 <ais523> most things seem to work only in one world or the other
15:13:58 <elliott> ais523: logic? of course applying logic in practice is a bit difficult
15:14:08 <elliott> ais523: anyway, if there's a disparity all it means is that your theory isn't good enough
15:14:14 <elliott> if it can't explain why it works, it's not the right theory
15:14:17 <elliott> if it can't explain why it doesn't work, it's not the right theory
15:14:24 <ais523> meh, the real world doesn't really follow logical rules, as seen by my conversation with comex in ##nomic yesterday
15:14:24 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: logic? of course applying logic in practice is a bit difficult
15:14:26 <elliott> well, in some situations
15:14:30 <elliott> ais523: ?
15:14:44 <ais523> I posted it to a-b so people not in the channel at the time coudl read it
15:14:46 <ais523> *could read it
15:15:01 <elliott> which thread?
15:15:07 <catseye> ais523: i ...can't think of any, surprisingly
15:15:18 <ais523> elliott: the one about the judgement to Bucky's CFJ
15:15:36 <ais523> we were talking about logical paradoxes involving belief
15:15:38 <elliott> ais523: have you seen esr's response to microsoft sending him a job offer, btw?
15:15:42 <ais523> no, I haven't
15:15:47 <ais523> also, Microsoft sent him a job offer?
15:15:50 <elliott> ais523: imagine the most egotistical three-year-old you can
15:15:54 <elliott> well, some microsoft recruiter
15:16:02 <elliott> ais523: I can link it if you want
15:16:09 <ais523> meh, imagining's probably more fun
15:16:20 <elliott> ais523:
15:16:21 <elliott> [[If you had bothered to do five seconds of background checking, you
15:16:21 <elliott> might have discovered that I am the guy who responded to Craig
15:16:21 <elliott> Mundie's "Who are you?" with "I'm your worst nightmare", and that I've
15:16:21 <elliott> in fact been something pretty close to your company's worst nightmare
15:16:21 <elliott> since about 1997.]]
15:16:21 <ais523> and it's likely to be a famous enough incident that I could find it by myself
15:16:26 <elliott> are you sure you can imagine things as crazy as that?
15:16:28 <elliott> (it gets worse, btw)
15:16:31 <ais523> oh, right
15:16:44 <elliott> ah, you've seen it?
15:16:55 <ais523> no, I was just replying to your "you can't possibly imagine it" comment
15:16:57 -!- tombom has joined.
15:17:03 <elliott> ah
15:17:08 <ais523> I've seen the Halloween documents, though
15:17:23 <ais523> so Microsoft were at least aware of him, unless he edited them to put mentions of himself in
15:17:34 <ais523> (now I've suggested that, it suddenly becomes vaguely plausible...!)
15:17:37 <elliott> which are those again?
15:17:53 <ais523> leaked Microsoft internal memos discussing open source and Linux, from ages ago
15:17:57 <ais523> they were leaked to ESR and he published them
15:18:11 <elliott> i think I may have seen them
15:18:20 <ais523> with a bunch of comments added for legal reasons, in order to make it technically speaking journalism
15:18:22 <catseye> ais523: boolean logic and logic gates come out *pretty* close, but only because you have things like coding theory to keep them away from the persistent misbehaving of the universe
15:18:26 <elliott> ais523: heh
15:19:36 <ais523> catseye: and I have enough training to know the differences
15:19:47 <ais523> it's actually quite easy to obtain boolean values between true and false in practice
15:19:56 <elliott> ais523: how do they behave?
15:19:59 <ais523> sometimes it seems like half of electronic engineering is trying to stop that happening
15:20:01 <elliott> (ok, stupidly general question, I know)
15:20:06 <ais523> elliott: they generally drive your power consumption through the roof
15:20:20 <ais523> and act like 0 or 1 depending on minor physical details, apart from that
15:20:30 <ais523> sometimes they screw up timing, too
15:21:03 <elliott> ais523: is bucky uorygl?
15:21:10 <ais523> no
15:21:14 <elliott> ok
15:21:15 <ais523> uorygl = Warrigal, or Tanner L. Swett
15:21:20 <elliott> yes, i know
15:21:24 <elliott> he just changes his nick a lot
15:21:30 <ais523> Bucky = Bucky, and uses the pseudonym John Smith on the lists
15:21:43 <elliott> I loved it when everyone tried to avoid saying my name directly because of the profanity
15:24:15 <Gregor> Woo I broke the bookmarklet.
15:24:36 <elliott> ais523: dear god @ that conversation
15:24:57 <ais523> the book I referenced is almost entirely about that sort of paradox
15:25:11 <ais523> it ends up proving Gödel's incompleteness theorem twice
15:25:22 <ais523> a much simpler way than the original proof
15:25:39 <elliott> ais523: was G.'s judgement correct?
15:25:43 <elliott> about your/my win
15:25:48 <elliott> well, your
15:25:50 <ais523> oh, let me check
15:26:24 <ais523> I think it falls into a gray area in the rules
15:26:47 <ais523> he 217ed an entirely new theory of logic
15:27:19 <elliott> ais523: yikes
15:27:22 <elliott> ais523: appeal?
15:27:37 <ais523> the annoying thing is, I can't actually see a flaw in the reasoning
15:27:51 <elliott> ais523: just appeal it for being judge activism, like they do in America
15:41:00 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:52:16 <elliott> catseye: hi
15:53:08 <ais523> elliott: misping?
15:53:15 <ais523> or, hmm, that doesn't seem to make sense in any context
15:53:19 <elliott> nope
15:53:32 <ais523> why would you say hi to someone who's been in the channel for a while, and not said anything for a while, when you haven't said anything for a while?
15:53:48 <elliott> ais523: to ask him something that i don't want to bother typing unless he's there :P
15:54:24 <ais523> I only do that sort of thing in /msg, in order to not send people demands out of context where I'm not there when they reply to me
15:54:56 <elliott> ais523: wait, how does the former aid the latter?
15:55:12 <ais523> because if they reply and I'm online at the time, I can instantly reply back with my actual question
15:55:19 <ais523> and then for their rereply, I generally am online
15:55:24 <elliott> well, that's what i'm going to do, no?
15:55:28 <elliott> i don't see what /msg has to do with it
15:55:34 <ais523> it doesn't, really
15:55:46 <ais523> well, apart from loggedness of the channel I suppose
16:03:52 <elliott> oerjan: for logreading reference, the company wine/debian/ubuntu were referring to is Blizzard
16:04:36 <elliott> 17:06:46 <new-lisper> nothing beats "cat - > myprogram.c"
16:04:39 <elliott> useless use of - award
16:04:56 <elliott> 18:33:02 <catseye> enum 4 0 0 doif cage lt 4 setv va00 4 subv va00 cage ages va00 endi next
16:04:57 <elliott> wat.
16:05:24 <ais523> incidentally, "useless use of cat" is not useless when using sh interactively
16:05:31 <ais523> it lets you write the line from left to right as you think of it
16:05:34 <ais523> which saves cursor motion
16:05:36 <elliott> 18:46:10 <Sgeo> Wait what?
16:05:37 <elliott> 18:46:17 <Sgeo> catseye is now a Creatures person?
16:05:37 <elliott> 18:46:54 <Sgeo> Or, at least, is mocking the "Age all creatures to adult" code
16:05:37 <elliott> 18:47:06 <Sgeo> But... catseye provided absolutely no context.
16:05:37 <elliott> lawl
16:05:38 <elliott> ais523: indeed
16:05:44 <elliott> ais523: it can also improve readability
16:05:53 <ais523> I like your "useless use of - award", though
16:05:57 <elliott> ais523: like writing haskell code with points, sometime :)
16:06:10 <elliott> *sometimes
16:06:47 <elliott> "Rememeber, nearly all cases where you have:
16:06:47 <elliott> cat file | some_command and its args ...
16:06:47 <elliott> you can rewrite it as:
16:06:47 <elliott> <file some_command and its args ..."
16:06:49 <elliott> ais523: ^ wow.
16:06:57 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$ </dev/null cat
16:06:57 <elliott> elliott@dinky:~$
16:06:58 <elliott> holy carp.
16:07:00 <ais523> elliott: that's a bashism
16:07:05 <elliott> yeah, i figured
16:07:11 <elliott> ais523: is this a bashism?:
16:07:12 <elliott> $ >foo
16:07:15 <elliott> in place of "touch foo"
16:07:21 <ais523> I think so, less sure on that one
16:07:48 <ais523> hmm, would >foo blank or touch an existing file?
16:07:51 <ais523> the first seems more logical
16:07:57 <elliott> ais523: blank
16:07:59 <ais523> after all, :> foo would blank the file
16:08:02 <elliott> ais523: i mean in place of using touch to create a file
16:08:20 <ais523> people use touch with the explicit intention to /create/ a file?
16:08:24 <elliott> ais523: err, yes
16:08:26 <elliott> ais523: I do, for instance
16:08:28 <ais523> I thought they used it either to update the timestamp, or to ensure that it exists
16:08:37 <elliott> ais523: how would you create a blank file?
16:08:39 <ais523> ensuring that a file exists isn't quite the same as creating it
16:08:47 <ais523> elliott: generally speaking, I wouldn't
16:08:53 <elliott> ais523: and if you would?
16:09:12 <ais523> the only times I've done that, it was via a GUI, so right-click | New...
16:09:23 <elliott> ais523: ok, ">foo" works in both dash and pdksh
16:09:27 <elliott> portable enough for me!
16:09:36 <ais523> I would use touch to create an empty file via the commandline, but I don't think that's ever come up
16:09:39 <elliott> ais523: and so does "</dev/null cat"
16:09:45 <ais523> hmm, interesting
16:10:04 <elliott> ais523: and any sh-alike that can do less than dash is just pitiful :)
16:10:18 * elliott installs ash, just to check
16:10:31 <elliott> ais523: works in ash, too
16:10:32 <elliott> both of them
16:10:40 <ais523> busybox sh?
16:10:44 <ais523> you can't get more bareboens than that
16:10:49 <ais523> hmm, I'll test it, I have it installed
16:10:51 <elliott> ORIGINAL BOURNE SHELL
16:10:57 <elliott> ais523: wow
16:11:00 <elliott> ubuntu ships with busybox
16:11:12 <elliott> ais523: both work
16:11:12 <ais523> of course it does, how else do you recover from a broken sh?
16:11:18 <elliott> heh, true
16:11:22 <elliott> but then why "I have it installed"?
16:11:24 <ais523> elliott: </etc/passwd doesn't print anything
16:11:31 <elliott> ais523: and?
16:11:33 <ais523> elliott: I mean, I instaleld it explicitly
16:11:34 <elliott> that's to be expected
16:11:38 <ais523> why?
16:11:40 <elliott> ais523: you're feeding /etc/passwd to nothing
16:11:43 <ais523> oh
16:11:51 <elliott> ais523: "</etc/passwd cat" should wrok
16:11:52 <elliott> *work
16:11:56 <elliott> the idea is to replace
16:11:58 <ais523> you're right, </etc/passwd cat does indeed cat /etc/passwd
16:12:02 <elliott> cat x | f
16:12:03 <elliott> with
16:12:05 <elliott> <x f
16:12:14 <elliott> with f <x and usually f x being equivalent
16:12:35 <elliott> hey, that means sh uses a special indicator to denote whether to be RPN or PN
16:12:36 <elliott> omg
16:12:37 <elliott> it can even do infix
16:12:40 <elliott> ais523: <x f >y
16:12:52 <elliott> for some definition of ifnix
16:12:53 <elliott> *infix
16:12:57 <elliott> well
16:12:59 <elliott> ais523: more like
16:13:01 <elliott> <x f <y
16:13:05 <ais523> f <x and f x are far from equivalent for some commands
16:13:20 <ais523> it's only convention that commands tend to interpret their first arg as a filename to use instead of stdin
16:13:23 <elliott> which, alas, doesn't seem to work :)
16:13:29 <ais523> ick < hello.i or whatever will fail, for instance
16:13:30 <elliott> even if you say cat - -
16:13:35 <elliott> ais523: indeed
16:14:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:14:38 <Gregor> HEEEEEY
16:14:38 <ais523> elliott: cat - /dev/fd/4 < /etc/passwd 4< /usr/share/common-licenses/GPL
16:14:48 <Gregor> webplat kinda works on Facebook now :)
16:14:50 <elliott> ais523: i approve
16:14:59 <ais523> come to think of it, 3 would work too
16:15:02 <ais523> (0, 1, 2 are taken)
16:15:19 <elliott> ais523: having to list your operands is a bit silly, though :)
16:15:20 <ais523> /dev/fd is a brilliant invention
16:15:39 <ais523> (and can incidentally be used to make suid shellscripts secure; some BSDs do that, although IIRC Linux doesn't)
16:15:48 <elliott> how?
16:16:12 <ais523> you open the file first, then check the fd to see if it was suid when it was opened
16:16:21 <ais523> if it was, you pass the file descriptor to sh or whatever as an argument
16:16:27 <ais523> no level of symlink hackery can get around that
16:16:28 <elliott> heh
16:16:36 <elliott> ais523: you still have to trust sh, though
16:16:40 <elliott> and the script itself
16:16:42 <elliott> especially if the program takes input
16:16:43 <elliott> i wouldn't
16:16:50 <ais523> oh, indeed
16:17:04 <ais523> but the point is that it isn't inherently insecure, like it used to be
16:17:12 <elliott> ("if you don't trust it don't suid it!" making proper shell scripts is almost impossible!)
16:17:37 <ais523> apparently it used to be common in university computer labs to gain root privileges via a race condition exploit on "eject", which was a suid shell script that arbitrary people could run
16:28:46 <elliott> a binary now, it seems
16:41:40 <Gregor> elliott: What's one of the pages you had that had weird behavior with webplat?
16:55:58 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
16:56:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:57:56 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
17:01:33 <elliott> Gregor: reddit
17:01:42 <elliott> 20:26:33 --- join: awilcox (AWilcox@awos/maintainer/awilcox) joined #esoteric
17:01:42 <elliott> 20:26:41 <awilcox> elliot, python is awesome
17:01:42 <elliott> 20:26:48 --- part: awilcox left #esoteric
17:01:52 <elliott> one, it's blatantly obvious greasemonkey told you to come in here or something
17:02:01 <Gregor> elliott: Wowsa.
17:02:04 <elliott> two, you can't even spell my name, why should i listen to your language opniions?
17:02:06 <Gregor> elliott: That is superbroken.
17:02:07 <ais523> two, that's not how you spell elliott?
17:02:17 <elliott> three, you just came in there to say that, you're amazingly idiotic if you think that'll change my mind
17:02:24 <elliott> four, you're therefore just saying it for the hell of it
17:02:29 <elliott> five, do you seriously have nothing better to do with your time?
17:02:35 <Gregor> eliotte: How do you spell elliott?
17:02:41 <ais523> elliott: it took all of 15 seconds
17:02:51 <ais523> five isn't really a valid point, some of the others are though
17:02:53 <elliott> six, "AWOS is my attempt at creating an Operating System". clearly not
17:03:07 <elliott> seven, python sucks.
17:03:09 <elliott> the end!
17:03:15 <elliott> ais523: and the OS one is hypocritical :P
17:03:49 <elliott> actually it is
17:03:50 <elliott> "* A universal operating system that can run DOS, Windows (3.1/9x/NT), Linux and BSD applications."
17:03:57 <elliott> the mark of an idiot OS non-developer (more or less)
17:04:06 <elliott> they *all* want compatibility with everything
17:04:46 <elliott> six point one, "kernel.kdevelop" dear god you have no taste in both languages and IDEs
17:05:09 <ais523> elliott: you dislike kdevelop?
17:05:16 <elliott> ais523: well, :)
17:05:20 <ais523> I've never used it, but you're the first person I've heard say anything bad about it
17:05:29 <elliott> ais523: it's not bad it's just...
17:05:30 <ais523> which is nice, because now I get to hear both sides of the argument in an attempt to form an opinion
17:05:32 <elliott> an IDE-style IDE
17:05:35 <elliott> for KDE
17:05:45 <elliott> so it's, like, the epitome of boringness
17:05:53 <ais523> hmm
17:05:57 <Gregor> elliott: /me can't even begin to guess why reddit is so hideously broken right now X-D
17:06:03 <ais523> really, for big enterprisey projects you need an IDE
17:06:13 <elliott> ais523: enterprisey is an epithet.
17:06:14 <ais523> the major purpose of an IDE is helping people get their head around enterprisiness
17:06:24 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I think I identified the main issue I have when coding in haskell.
17:06:41 <elliott> Vorpal: yourself?
17:07:31 <Vorpal> elliott, harhar. The issue is that I don't really have any sort of "feeling" for when lazyness matters. I keep thinking along strict evaluation lines a lot.
17:07:41 <ais523> Vorpal: don't think along evaluation lines at all
17:07:49 <Vorpal> oops, bbl missed what the time was
17:07:53 <ais523> if you're trying to get eval order in your head when writing Haskell, you're doing it wrong
17:08:00 <ais523> (I read most langs in eval order; not so with Haskell)
17:09:36 <elliott> yeah, that
17:09:55 <elliott> "I decided earlier today that my OS will be open source, under an Apache 1-like license. This was a big step for me; I wasn't sure if I wanted to be closed or open."
17:10:15 <elliott> your amateur OS is totally important enough that people will pay attention to it even if they can't study the code.
17:10:43 <ais523> wait, Apache 1?
17:10:48 <ais523> Apache abandoned that license because it was insane
17:11:22 <elliott> ais523: but that does not stop insane internet people.
17:11:33 <ais523> I suppose so
17:11:41 <elliott> who come into #esoteric presumably at the behest of GreaseMonkey (he's hosted on a "wilcoxtech" server) to tell me how awesome Python is because I dissed it
17:11:52 <elliott> without even offering any sort of argument and not even insulting my mother
17:12:02 <elliott> at least someone cares about my opinions enough :)
17:12:04 <ais523> (I've had to reimplement libraries before because the existing libraries were Apache 1-licensed)
17:13:24 <elliott> 20:55:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: In English, "or" = xor *only* if talking to someone who is actually familiar with xor. :P
17:13:26 <elliott> well, no
17:13:30 <elliott> it's xor even then, they just don't know it
17:13:59 <ais523> I'm familiar with xor, but normally interpret "or" as inclusive
17:14:03 <ais523> although it depends on context
17:14:29 <ais523> (even more, I interpret it as alternative, i.e. "do you want A or B" doesn't normally cause the answer "yes")
17:16:41 <elliott> ais523: "did you do it, or did he?"
17:16:48 <elliott> hmm
17:16:54 <elliott> ais523: "did you do fly, or did he fly?"
17:16:56 <elliott> if both of you flew, uh
17:16:57 <elliott> anyway
17:17:01 <elliott> ok so it makes little sense
17:17:11 <ais523> elliott: "both"
17:17:24 <elliott> ais523: clearly we must introduce Both Logic
17:17:32 <ais523> elliott: it already exists
17:17:42 <ais523> half the people in this department, if you ask them about truth values
17:17:52 <elliott> ais523: that's unknown logic, probably
17:17:54 <elliott> not BOTH LOGIC
17:17:56 <ais523> will draw a little diamond, with true on the left, false on the right, neither on the bottom, both on the top
17:19:35 <ais523> bottom is, incidentally, the same bottom that's the return value of an infinite loop
17:21:08 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:21:23 <elliott> ais523: and both is the type with one element
17:21:29 <elliott> (confusingly, not the type with all elements)
17:21:35 <elliott> sort of
17:21:37 <elliott> well
17:21:38 <elliott> uh
17:21:41 <elliott> it depends :D
17:21:53 <elliott> ais523: anyway, actual both logic is quite an interesting idea imo
17:21:55 <elliott> the issue is
17:21:56 <elliott> F + F = F
17:21:56 <elliott> F + T = F
17:21:56 <elliott> T + T = B
17:22:02 <elliott> what's T+B? what's F+B?
17:22:09 <elliott> where + is like souped-up and here
17:22:12 <ais523> elliott: these are the sort of people who quantify over systems of logic
17:22:21 <elliott> well
17:22:23 <elliott> T+B = B, I think
17:22:27 <elliott> F+B is probably F
17:22:30 <elliott> but it might be T
17:22:34 <elliott> ("both is just THAT TRUE!")
17:22:44 -!- cpressey has joined.
17:22:50 <elliott> hi cpressey
17:22:55 <cpressey> hi elliott
17:23:03 <elliott> cpressey: any netbsd luck?
17:23:33 <cpressey> elliott: no, mostly backing things up, now that i have something that can burn dvds.
17:23:40 <cpressey> tomorrow perhaps
17:23:55 <elliott> wait no
17:23:57 <elliott> T+B = T
17:24:07 <elliott> F + F = F
17:24:07 <elliott> F + T = F
17:24:07 <elliott> F + B = F
17:24:07 <elliott> T + B = T
17:24:07 <elliott> T + T = B
17:24:08 <elliott> i think
17:24:20 <cpressey> i am actually planning on installing 10.10 here at work so i don't have to install it at home :D
17:24:36 <elliott> 22:21:44 <Gregor> It does not work nicely in Chrome /anywhere/
17:24:37 <elliott> it does
17:24:42 <elliott> at least it did when i tried
17:24:47 <elliott> cpressey: how does that make sense xD
17:25:35 <cpressey> if i have access to a 10.10 install *somewhere*, i won't be as tempted to install it on my home machine where I COULD be installing netbsd instead!
17:25:57 <cpressey> also, getting sick of virtualbox
17:26:13 <cpressey> things will go smoother here if windows is not involved
17:26:39 <cpressey> (except for scheduling meetings; outlook actually kind of works for that, while nothing else seems to)
17:27:11 <ais523> what about talking to people in person? that's how I schedule meetings
17:27:46 <cpressey> omg civilization would fall apart
17:27:47 <elliott> 23:28:24 <Gregor> Right, if a node has non-whitespace text children, OR it has no non-inline children at all, then it's a platform.
17:27:52 <elliott> Gregor: bet wrapper divs fuck it up
17:28:07 <cpressey> ais523: it's more a matter of it being retained on a calendar as a reminder
17:28:23 <ais523> well add it to your calendar then?
17:28:26 <elliott> cpressey works for the MAN
17:28:29 <ais523> Evolution does that just fine for me
17:28:31 <elliott> he sold out
17:28:43 <ais523> even directly from emails sent from someone else's Outlook or whatever the Mac equivalent is
17:29:04 <cpressey> ais523: maybe all the non-outlook-using people here are making excuses, then :)
17:29:30 <ais523> it's possibly because everyone but me seems to hate Evolution for some reason
17:29:33 <elliott> 00:08:21 <Gregor> Damn it jQuery, stop solving all my problems!
17:29:43 <elliott> [John Resig's guiding spirit disappears from Gregor's soul]
17:29:47 <ais523> but I find it a pretty nice Outlook substitute, and get irritated at Thunderbird
17:29:58 <elliott> i hate both! but you could have guessed that
17:30:36 <elliott> ais523: wow, best imitation of zzo38's style of speech yet found:
17:30:46 <elliott> "I agree. jQuery is really the bset, it solves all kinds of browser problems and is good, as well"
17:30:48 <elliott> *best,
17:30:50 <ais523> elliott: do you hate all email programs?
17:30:58 <elliott> "and X, as well" at the end of a long sentence seems to help a lot
17:31:03 <elliott> ais523: Well ... um ... maybe ... yes
17:31:10 <ais523> elliott: I saw the comment before the introductory sentence, and thought "hey that sounds just like zzo38"
17:31:36 <ais523> it's a really charming form of grammar
17:31:47 <elliott> if unparsable
17:32:04 <elliott> (sometimes)
17:32:43 <elliott> 01:40:20 <quintopia> gregor: http://filebin.ca/qxuvnd
17:32:45 <elliott> what file format is this?
17:32:50 <elliott> the lack of a filename doesn't help...
17:33:02 <elliott> (why can't filebin specify the filename in the relevant header? sheesh)
17:34:19 <ais523> filebin specifies it in the URL, optionally
17:34:26 <ais523> does file(1) help identify the file?
17:34:49 <elliott> ais523: yes, but... it should really use the correct http header
17:34:51 <elliott> Content-Disposition or whatever
17:34:55 <elliott> it already does it to force a download
17:34:59 <elliott> it just needs ; filename=foo
17:35:22 <elliott> Friend: so have you decided what you are going to do about the websites?
17:35:22 <elliott> Mark Zuckerberg: yea i’m going to fuck them
17:35:22 <elliott> Mark Zuckerberg: probably in the year
17:35:22 <elliott> Mark Zuckerberg: *ear
17:35:24 <elliott> [on ConnectU]
17:35:33 <elliott> "On September 20, 2010, Facebook confirmed the authenticity of these leaked instant messages in a New Yorker article."
17:35:38 <elliott> ais523: it's probably a gif
17:35:50 <elliott> since that fits what quintopia said about it afterwards
17:35:51 <elliott> and the context
17:35:52 <ais523> "probably"?
17:36:07 <ais523> GIFs have a reliable magic number, don't they?
17:36:14 <ais523> or are you trying to determine what the file is without downloading it?
17:36:28 <elliott> ais523: i already dismissed the download window and ~/Downloads is huge :P
17:36:42 <ais523> you mean you don't move files to more sensible locations immediately after downloading them?
17:36:59 <cpressey> what location could possibly be more sensible than ~/Downloads?
17:37:25 <elliott> ais523: i totally would but i'm lazy as hell. also -- why not just pop up a download box if you do that?
17:37:30 <elliott> for "save as"
17:37:42 <ais523> cpressey: the fact that a file originally came from the Internet is pretty irrelevant to it, generally
17:37:59 <ais523> elliott: oh, I do normally, but sometimes the file downloads in the wrong place for no apparent reason
17:38:31 <elliott> ais523: I used to have ~/Saved/YYYY-MM; anything I wanted to keep would go there.
17:38:39 <elliott> For instance, I'd put installation ISOs there and the like.
17:38:43 <elliott> And just about anything I didn't want to delete.
17:38:52 <elliott> It saved me having to categorise what was essentially a heap of random stuff.
17:38:54 <ais523> hmm, if I don't want to keep something, I generally just delete it
17:38:57 <cpressey> ais523: i usually extract the contents to somewhere sensible, and leave the archive in the downloads directory, pretending it's a cache. of course, if it's not an archive, that's a different matter
17:39:01 <elliott> ais523: ditto
17:39:10 <cpressey> "somewhere sensible", though, is usually ~/build
17:39:10 <elliott> but if I did want to keep it, it went into ~/Saved/YYYY-MM
17:39:19 <cpressey> which barely counts
17:39:27 <elliott> although, ~/Saved/YYYYQN/ would probably be more reasonable
17:39:29 <elliott> e.g. 2010Q3
17:39:35 <elliott> for third quarter of 2010
17:40:34 <elliott> fun thing to do: compare infoboxes on Wikipedia for two identical twins
17:42:01 <Ilari> I figured new potential problem with IPv4 depletion: After the first RIR (APNIC) has been depleted, "RIR shopping" likely commerces, especially for Asian users. This will fragment the routing tables even more (and IPv4 routing table fragmentation is already bad).
17:43:32 <elliott> Ilari: how, exactly, does the internet stll manage to work?
17:43:45 <elliott> *still
17:44:06 <ais523> elliott: it's working a lot slower than in theory it should
17:44:18 <elliott> ais523: yes, but it still works remarkably well
17:44:22 <ais523> try tracerouting your connections some time, and geolocating each of the hops
17:44:34 <ais523> the number of times the route actually starts off in entirely the wrong direction is quite worrying
17:45:03 <elliott> ipv6 isn't going to happen, is it...
17:45:14 <elliott> although i have to note that ipv4 depletion was predicted to happen very very soon years ago
17:45:15 <Ilari> Routing table fragmentation is router-internal problem.
17:46:08 <ais523> elliott: it's probably going to happen eventually in 2012, and cause the end of the world
17:46:22 <ais523> (Note: Mayan calendar actually rolls over to a new cycle in 2220, it was originally misinterpreted)
17:46:32 <elliott> ais523: and cycles aren't the end of the world, etc. etc.
17:46:43 <elliott> still, i totally have plans to make plans for December 21st, 2012.
17:46:55 <ais523> elliott: no, although Mayan mythology did have it that they caused mass extinctions
17:46:57 <elliott> ais523: i wonder how many suicides it'll get
17:46:59 <elliott> even Y2k got a few
17:47:05 <ais523> ugh, a depressing thought
17:47:18 <ais523> besides, why would you bother committing suicide if the world's about to end anyway?
17:47:29 <elliott> ais523: because otherwise CTHULHU WILL CONSUME YOUR SOUL TEN TIMES MORE PAINFULLY
17:47:34 <elliott> or something to that effect
17:47:53 <elliott> ais523: at least solace can be taken in the fact that it's very unlikely someone smarter than a sack of bricks would do it
17:48:01 <elliott> (even insane intelligent people tend to be a bit more creative than that...)
17:49:23 <ais523> meh, believing I'm sane would require a huge number of assumptions about the world I'm not willing to make
17:49:23 <Ilari> Funny how many think that there's going to be some disaster because Mayans predicted there would be... Well, Mayans made no prediction of that day being special (apart of prediction of big party).
17:49:48 <ais523> Ilari: they did, according to mythology there was a mass extinction at the end of every cycle so far
17:49:51 <elliott> ais523: wait, what has your sanity got to do with it? :)
17:49:55 <ais523> admittedly, they didn't predict that the pattern would necessarily continue
17:50:14 <ais523> elliott: the topic came up
17:50:17 <elliott> also, it was 2020 as you said
17:50:19 <cpressey> did they predict their own civilization's extinction?
17:50:21 <ais523> elliott: 2220
17:50:25 <elliott> ais523: oh
17:50:26 <elliott> even better
17:50:34 <ais523> cpressey: I'm not sure
17:50:38 <elliott> ais523: although not really, as i don't get to see the *second* day of insanity
17:50:40 <ais523> their calendar didn't, but I'm not sure it was meant to
17:50:54 <Ilari> I think they though the cycle wouldn't continue (because now (IIRC 5th time), the creation actually succeeded).
17:51:01 <cpressey> elliott: ohhh i'm sure there will be *some* insanity come 2020.
17:51:09 <elliott> cpressey: there's insanity every year!
17:51:23 <elliott> the mayans weren't that hot anyway
17:51:34 <elliott> we're smarter than them :P
17:51:43 <cpressey> hm, there wasn't much panic in 1996, even though that year was explicitly mentioned in some prophecies... i guess they were too obscure
17:51:49 <ais523> I seem to remember there was an end-of-the-world scare in 1996
17:51:54 <ais523> at school, at least
17:52:02 <cpressey> ais523: hm, interesting
17:52:08 <elliott> HEAVEN'S GATE
17:52:12 <elliott> (note: unrelated to 1996)
17:52:13 <cpressey> ohhh right
17:52:13 <ais523> cpressey: that was Nostradamus's prediction, IIRC, or at least one interpretation of what he wrote
17:52:17 <cpressey> i forgot about them!
17:52:18 <elliott> that was 1997
17:52:19 <elliott> not 1996
17:52:20 <cpressey> the sneaker peopl!
17:52:21 <Gregor> <elliott> 23:28:24 <Gregor> Right, if a node has non-whitespace text children, OR it has no non-inline children at all, then it's a platform.
17:52:21 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: bet wrapper divs fuck it up
17:52:27 <elliott> btw:
17:52:28 <elliott> [[Exit Press Release:
17:52:29 <elliott> "Away Team" Returns to Level Above Human]]
17:52:31 <elliott> http://www.heavensgate.com/misc/pressrel.htm
17:52:32 <Gregor> Wrapper divs have non-inline children.
17:52:33 <elliott> translated:
17:52:38 <ais523> elliott: you wouldn't expect apocalypticists to get the year write, would you?
17:52:39 <Gregor> If they also have text, then yup, womped up.
17:52:40 <elliott> "Here's a press release, we're going to go kill ourselves now."
17:52:43 <Ilari> And when it comes to disasters, there's considerable diference between disaster that takes down western civilization and an ELE.
17:52:54 <elliott> ais523: I wouldn't expect them to get it write, no. What?
17:53:00 <ais523> um, right
17:53:00 <Gregor> <elliott> 01:40:20 <quintopia> gregor: http://filebin.ca/qxuvnd <-- this is a .tar.gz. Learn to file(1)
17:53:13 <elliott> Gregor: I don't see why I should go to the effort >:)
17:53:15 <ais523> elliott: I type by thinking what I want to type auditorily, then my fingers translate it into letters
17:53:20 <elliott> It opened with Archive Manager
17:53:27 <elliott> but it gave up and cried after showing a file with the same name as the only entry.
17:53:34 <elliott> ais523: that's... impressive... ly bad
17:53:42 <ais523> it's not deliberate, it just sort of happened
17:53:47 <elliott> ais523: can you not think non-audially?
17:53:49 <ais523> then I have to go back and correct homophones that have crept in somehow
17:53:57 <ais523> elliott: I can; but not words for some reason
17:53:59 <elliott> (not "audibly", spellcheck! :P)
17:54:00 <ais523> I normally just think in thoughts
17:54:13 <elliott> ais523: so when you're thinking about whatever you... don't even have an internal monologue?
17:54:18 <ais523> but they become sounds when I have to translate them to a language
17:54:23 <elliott> you just float around pure concept-space? i find that unlikely
17:54:39 <cpressey> ais523: i had an experience the other day which made it clear to me that i think in both thoughts and words, like on two levels
17:54:40 <ais523> elliott: I've started typing a sentence and then realised I didn't know what the next word in it was in English, or indeed any other language, before
17:54:43 <ais523> although it didn't happen often
17:54:48 <Ilari> It only takes one very bad pandemic to take down civilization. That wouldn't be even near ELE.
17:54:54 <ais523> that's proof that thoughts happen as thoughts, and only become words when you try to determine what they are
17:55:00 <ais523> cpressey: what was yours?
17:55:12 <elliott> cpressey died and experienced pure thought
17:55:16 <elliott> then his boss woke him up
17:55:22 <elliott> I N C E P T I O N
17:55:34 <cpressey> ais523: basically not being able to remember a word for something, in my internal monologue, but noticing that the thought behind it was still coherent
17:55:46 <ais523> cpressey: same here
17:56:04 <elliott> well, yes
17:56:05 <elliott> obviously
17:56:07 <elliott> sapir-whorf is false
17:56:08 <elliott> but:
17:56:12 <elliott> ais523: don't you hear an internal monologue?
17:56:14 <elliott> in normal thoughts
17:56:15 <ais523> I imagine that when people introspect, as in "what am I thinking", they translate their thoughts into English
17:56:16 <ais523> but not otherwise
17:56:23 <elliott> hmm
17:56:23 <elliott> maybe
17:56:25 <ais523> elliott: I can, but only when I choose to, or am thinking about it
17:56:31 <elliott> it's hard to figure out what we do when not introspecting
17:56:33 <elliott> for obvious reasons :)
17:56:39 <ais523> I tend to use an internal monologue the same way other people use pencil and paper
17:56:43 <ais523> to take down notes
17:56:51 <elliott> ais523: i disapprove of your memory and wish i had it
17:56:58 <ais523> (this is actually quite useful, because if I'm at a computer, I can actually write down the monologue as it happens)
17:57:38 <Ilari> Basically, what makes civilization vulernable is strong centralization and interdependence.
17:58:25 <cpressey> Ilari: at the same time, centralization and interdependence make civilization possible
17:58:34 <cpressey> stupid balancing acts
18:00:14 <Ilari> Actually, no... Its just the tendency that civilization goes towards stronger and stronger centralization and interdependence. Some centralization and interdependence is inherit, but very strong one isn't.
18:00:40 <cpressey> I didn't say "strong".
18:01:15 <cpressey> So, yes, some centralization and interdependence in inherent -- that was my point.
18:01:24 <cpressey> bbl (unless there's an ELE while I'm at lunch)
18:01:38 <elliott> FOOM
18:02:29 <Ilari> Western civilization is much more than 100 years old. And 100 years ago there was centralization and interdependence, but MUCH less than today.
18:04:04 <Ilari> Good thing, because spanish flu really pushed the system. Over the breaking point in some places. And when the breaking point was exceeded, the results were VERY VERY ugly.
18:04:28 <elliott> Ugly like ugliness.
18:04:47 <elliott> Ilari: Modern Western civilisation isn't very old though (obviously).
18:04:51 <elliott> I'd say less than 200 years.
18:05:03 <elliott> Late 1800s onwards.
18:05:55 <Ilari> Like 90% of population died... That's actually worse than in cities that were written off during Black Plague (IIRC, about 75%).
18:06:32 <Gregor> elliott: Fixed Reddit.
18:06:48 <elliott> Gregor fixed reddit singlehandedly.
18:06:51 <elliott> Gregor: "reddit" btw.
18:06:57 <elliott> ...link me again? >_>
18:07:04 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webplat/
18:07:11 <Gregor> ReDdIt
18:08:17 <Ilari> Industrialization started in 18th century.
18:08:30 <elliott> Ilari: Modern Western civilisation is a bit more than that.
18:08:45 <elliott> Gregor: you frozen my reddit.
18:08:52 <Gregor> elliott: It's slow to load.
18:08:53 <elliott> oh it fix.
18:08:55 <Gregor> elliott: But it works.
18:09:13 <elliott> Gregor: Things that suck: Walls you can't see. Make them flash a border when you hit them and then fade that out or something?
18:09:26 <elliott> Woot your thing fails on non-white background :P
18:09:36 <elliott> Gregor: Okay, serious non-nitpicky suggestion:
18:09:47 <elliott> Gregor: Have some sort of key that lets you jump into any element with child elements.
18:09:49 <Ilari> What ultimately kills civilizations: Running out of resources.
18:09:50 <Gregor> It doesn't "fail", it's explicitly set to black-on-white so it'll always be visible. I'll use the .pngs at some point.
18:09:53 <elliott> Gregor: Text acts as floor and the like.
18:09:59 <elliott> That way barriers wouldn't be an issue and it could be a game mechanic.
18:10:00 -!- sftp has joined.
18:10:23 * Gregor considers.
18:10:33 <Ilari> Usually they don't reach the amount of complexity such that one disaster could wipe it out in one shot.
18:11:12 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, if you can jump into links, you can jump into elements :P
18:11:48 <Gregor> elliott: The reason why I didn't just say that any element with children is clear in the first place is that then whether text is a boundary or not is a mystery ...
18:12:06 <Gregor> elliott: Also, it does display a boundary when you jump into something that's a not-very-visible wall?
18:12:07 <elliott> Gregor: ...text is water.
18:12:13 <elliott> It's sort-of-solid-looking, sort of not.
18:12:15 <elliott> So you can swim in it!
18:12:57 <Gregor> *brain axplote*
18:13:25 <elliott> Gregor: You can't argue with the truth.
18:13:56 <elliott> <Gregor> elliott: Also, it does display a boundary when you jump into something that's a not-very-visible wall? <-- Try it on reddit, then try and jump onto the "report" link.
18:14:08 <elliott> You bash into the "submitted ..." line, which is full-width.
18:14:11 <elliott> Despite not being visible there.
18:14:17 <elliott> But no indication of this is given.
18:14:47 <elliott> Gregor: Also, I'd just like to say that this game has hilarious physics:
18:14:51 <elliott> *physics :P
18:15:00 * Gregor tries desperately to figure out where any of the stuff you're talking about on reddit is :P
18:15:43 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, uh... you have to log in to see "report".
18:15:48 <elliott> It's next to "share" basically.
18:16:09 <elliott> Gregor: Aww, it resets Acid2.
18:16:16 <elliott> So I can't see what the fuck it thinks of the crazy smiley.
18:16:19 <Gregor> I can't produce any weirdness around "share"
18:16:24 <elliott> (Apart from "dear god what".)
18:16:27 <elliott> Gregor: Just jump up, then.
18:16:30 <elliott> You'll bash into whiteness.
18:16:44 <elliott> From the very first position, move right until there's no links directly above you.
18:16:45 <elliott> Jump.
18:16:48 <elliott> Ohshitwhitewall
18:16:56 <elliott> Gregor: Holy crap
18:16:59 <elliott> http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html
18:17:00 <elliott> Try it here
18:17:05 <elliott> And walk off the edge
18:17:47 <elliott> javascript:(function(){var%20script=document.createElement('script');script.src='http://codu.org/webplat/jquery.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);script=document.createElement('script');script.src='http://codu.org/webplat/webplat.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);})()
18:17:49 <elliott> (for my future usage)
18:20:42 <Gregor> elliott: That's ... wtf
18:20:50 <elliott> Gregor: :D
18:21:03 <Gregor> WHO ARE YOU CRAZY ACID MAN???
18:21:10 <elliott> He's on Acid2.
18:21:13 <elliott> *Acid, too.
18:21:18 <elliott> (Good joke opportunity missed!)
18:21:21 <elliott> *acid, too.
18:24:28 <Gregor> elliott: OHOHOHO, if you jump UP into something, not SIDEWAYS into something, it doesn't show the box? Is that what you mean?
18:24:41 <elliott> Gregor: Yes.
18:24:45 <Gregor> Ahhh
18:24:48 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm aware of that problem.
18:24:48 <elliott> Ohohohoho Santa
18:24:59 <elliott> Gregor: Also it totally needs to be an MMORPG.
18:25:03 <elliott> "omfg there are like 1,000 people on this page"
18:25:10 <Gregor> "FIRE ZE MISSILES"
18:25:38 <elliott> Gregor: "5,000,000 free points and a never-seen-before power 10 weapon will be released by a GM on http://meatspin.com/ at 4pm UTC!"
18:25:48 <Gregor> lawl
18:25:55 <elliott> 6pm UTC: "Sorry, guys, there was a delay at the office. Unfortunately the servers have lost the code for now, so check back again another time!"
18:25:59 <elliott> "In fact, every day!"
18:26:18 <Gregor> ... OMG OMG OMG ... you COULD have secret things to find ... they could even be handled in such a way that they couldn't be faked ...
18:26:36 <elliott> Gregor: Y'know, it's time to ditch JS if you're getting that ambitious :P
18:26:48 <Gregor> NEVAR
18:26:48 <Gregor> WebSockets will save me!
18:27:05 <elliott> Gregor: Have you considered how to handle following links yet?
18:27:07 <elliott> JUST ASKIN'
18:27:18 <Gregor> Space will probably be generic "activate element"
18:27:21 <elliott> WebSockets plus a port of WebKit to JavaScript? :P
18:27:24 <elliott> Gregor: I mean technologically.
18:27:24 <Gregor> For activating input boxes, links, whatever.
18:27:32 <Gregor> Yes.
18:27:32 <Gregor> Proxy lawl
18:28:24 <Gregor> Basically, I may be able to get away with proxying the HTML page and adding an ever-unpopular <base> tag.
18:28:40 <elliott> Gregor: Oh great, so following a link forces a kludgy new page load and loss of seamlessnessness.
18:28:42 <elliott> WOOO
18:28:51 <elliott> Gregor: How about just using XMLHttpRequest and setting document.innerHTML or whatever?
18:28:54 <elliott> That'd be less painful even for that...
18:29:02 <Gregor> I ... would that work ...
18:29:13 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. Yes it would.
18:29:30 <Gregor> (That wouldn't work because you can't XHR past the SOP, but still)
18:29:36 <elliott> Gregor: Proxy. Duh.
18:29:43 <Gregor> Fair enough.
18:29:43 <elliott> That also inserts the <script> for you.
18:31:58 <Gregor> Hmmm
18:32:03 <Gregor> Frankly that doesn't seem to gain much over a page load.
18:32:18 <elliott> Gregor: Well, uh, a lot less experience-breaking.
18:32:23 <elliott> Gregor: Also you could do a ~fancy transition~.
18:32:44 <Gregor> Except that it won't be that much less experience-breaking since you'll still have to have your location reset.
18:32:49 <elliott> Gregor: Also you could avoid hiding the information box.
18:33:14 <Gregor> ... huh?
18:33:45 <elliott> Gregor: If you have an HP/bling/etc. box.
18:33:57 <elliott> You could set up the scripts so it doesn't disappear during page load.
18:33:58 <elliott> Or something.
18:34:15 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
18:36:32 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway it totally isn't going to work MMORPG-y with Javascript :P
18:36:38 <Gregor> No :P
18:36:48 <elliott> Gregor: You could have most of it written in Javascript but driven by C++, say. (because WebKit's C++)
18:36:50 <Gregor> But it could still be an adventure-treasure-hunt.
18:42:51 <Gregor> In the non-MMO case, what should enemies be?
18:43:13 <elliott> Gregor: OTHER PEOPLE
18:43:23 <elliott> À la Sartre.
18:43:35 <Gregor> elliott: You go implement the C++ part, and then I'll get it all put together.
18:43:50 <elliott> Gregor: No no no, the enemies are just "other people".
18:43:55 <elliott> Not each enemy is another person.
18:43:58 <elliott> The only enemy is "other people".
18:44:06 <Gregor> ...
18:47:53 -!- evincar_ has joined.
18:48:08 -!- evincar_ has changed nick to evincar.
18:48:27 <evincar> Ahoy.
18:49:05 <ais523> hi
18:49:21 <evincar> Hey, long time no chat. How's life?
18:49:42 <ais523> OK, a bit busy atm
18:49:51 <elliott> wb evincar
18:49:55 <elliott> I remember you! :p
18:49:58 <ais523> so do I!
18:50:06 <evincar> Glad to hear it!
18:51:26 <evincar> So how about Mr. Mandelbrot? I feel as though I should make a fractal-inspired esolang in his honour.
18:51:30 <elliott> evincar: i forget, did you ever make any esolangs?
18:52:05 <evincar> Oh, sure, I do them as weekend projects from time to time. There are a couple of older ones on the wiki (circa 2008-2009, I think).
18:53:44 <evincar> Of course, they frequently come out too usable.
18:54:11 <elliott> usable != unesoteric
18:54:55 <evincar> I was working on a fun little stringly-typed number that ended up being something between Haiku and a shoddy Tcl clone.
18:55:18 <elliott> Haiku?
18:55:43 <elliott> ais523: incidentally, AWilcox also appears to interpret the MIT license as having an advertising clause...
18:55:54 <elliott> [[This software is licensed under a Apache1/BSD-style license. This means that you can use it, but you *must give me credit* by putting this somewhere in your documentation:
18:55:54 <elliott> 'This software program contains code developed for AWOS. (http://code.google.com/p/awos/)'
18:55:55 <elliott> This is all I ask in return for you using my code. I would appreciate, but do not require, a copy of your finished product. We can work something out if you contact me via my Gmail.]]
18:55:56 <ais523> that sounds like a typo
18:56:09 <ais523> oh "BSD-style"
18:56:09 <elliott> ais523: what sounds like a typo?
18:56:10 <elliott> oh, wait
18:56:11 <elliott> "BSD-style"
18:56:18 <cpressey> < Ilari> What ultimately kills civilizations: Running out of resources. <-- that's true in a sense that's so trivial it's effectively false
18:56:23 <elliott> ais523: lololol Apache 1 even has an advertising clause?
18:56:24 <ais523> Apache1 was insane, BSD4 was unfortunate
18:56:25 <elliott> worst license ever
18:56:38 <elliott> clearly the man not only has bad taste, but is legally insane
18:57:37 <cpressey> elliott: wait who is this awilcox person? he jumped in here last night to tell you* that python is awesome, then left.
18:57:54 <elliott> cpressey: GreaseMonkey's partner in stupid
18:57:59 <cpressey> *he spelled elliott with one t, so he might have been addressing someone else
18:58:06 <Gregor> quintopia: Can has "jumping" position too?
18:58:09 <elliott> hosts GreaseMonkey's files
18:58:11 <evincar> elliott: Excuse me, Haifu. I untypo'd.
18:58:19 <elliott> presumably GreaseMonkey got him to come in here to go HAY PYTHON IS ACTUALLY AWESOME LOL
18:58:22 <elliott> so i decided to google him
18:58:27 <elliott> turns out he has a really crappy OS project
18:58:28 <ais523> evincar: I like the concept of an untypo
18:58:34 <cpressey> great so he's not even ok yeah
18:58:41 <elliott> basically i'm kicking a retarded dog with my mind, and ASCII
18:58:44 * cpressey erases the memory
18:58:50 <ais523> and I've made them before, trying to comment on other people's typos
18:58:50 <evincar> "I meant to type it wrong, but I typed it wrong wrong and typed it right."
18:58:55 <elliott> cpressey: also he uses FreeBSD
18:59:03 <elliott> so it's like a retarded dog that... kills people
18:59:07 <elliott> i think
18:59:14 <cpressey> elliott: like forth, it tends to attract the crazies a bit
18:59:28 <elliott> cpressey: i think the problem with this guy is that he's not nearly crazy enough
18:59:39 <elliott> like, sanity isn't 0-100 and 100's good
18:59:46 <elliott> it's unnamed-property-related-to-sanity
18:59:50 <elliott> and being in about the middle is good
18:59:56 <elliott> maybe a bit higher than the middle
19:00:03 <elliott> and this guy's like 15 steps too high
19:00:08 <elliott> sort of like Vorpal >:)
19:01:35 <elliott> i would just like to say that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overwhelmingly_Large_Telescope
19:01:37 <elliott> has an amazing name
19:03:38 <Vorpal> <elliott> who come into #esoteric presumably at the behest of GreaseMonkey (he's hosted on a "wilcoxtech" server) to tell me how awesome Python is because I dissed it <-- hm, did greasmonkey use apache-1 or what?
19:03:57 <evincar> elliott: The best part is that it was too overwhelming, so they're building the "extremely large" one instead.
19:04:06 <elliott> it... is impossible to quantify how much you did not read there, Vorpal
19:04:07 <elliott> evincar: Yes.
19:04:13 <elliott> They were overwhelmed by their own design.
19:04:17 <elliott> LIKE GOD ;___;
19:04:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm unable to find the name of whoever it was about...
19:04:57 <elliott> Vorpal: You're really bad at searching.
19:05:56 <Vorpal> elliott, what, awilcox?!
19:06:10 <elliott> Now we get to find out Vorpal knows awilcox or something.
19:06:22 <elliott> (I wonder if they're good friends.)
19:06:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I know him somewhat yes. As for being friend, I'm pretty much neutral against him.
19:07:02 <Gregor> quintopia: Oh, and a "dead" position too :P
19:07:02 <Vorpal> not friend, not hostile either
19:07:04 <elliott> "neutral against"
19:07:30 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr he came in earlier today/late yesterday, told "elliot" that python was awesome, and then left.
19:07:47 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I knew he was messing around with some armature OS, but apache-1?
19:07:48 <Vorpal> wtf
19:07:51 <elliott> I lol'd at how GreaseMonkey had told his friend/webhost/whatever to come in here just to tell me that Python is great and promptly googled him.
19:07:56 <elliott> "Armature".
19:08:01 <Vorpal> oops
19:08:01 <elliott> I just so approve of using this word to mean "amateur".
19:08:04 <elliott> No, keep it :P
19:08:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Apache-1, and on his blog there's a post from 2006 saying he decided he wanted it to be open after considering closed-source!
19:08:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I blame spell checking not suggesting the right in the top position of the list or something ;P
19:08:40 <elliott> Vorpal: "* A universal operating system that can run DOS, Windows (3.1/9x/NT), Linux and BSD applications."
19:09:02 <elliott> Interestingly, using this as a heuristic to detect people who are terrible at creating OSes is effective with about 90% success rate.
19:09:06 <ais523> elliott: come to think of it, doesn't Windows fit that description? and Linux?
19:09:10 <elliott> ("Wants to emulate [popular system]")
19:09:16 <ais523> you can get appropriate emulators/compat libraries
19:09:18 <elliott> ais523: presumably, he means "on the same level as"
19:09:22 <ais523> admittedly, it doesn't always work
19:09:26 <elliott> anyway, as an *OS* goal, it's insane
19:09:32 <ais523> also, "BSD applications"?
19:09:37 <ais523> is there binary compat between BSD variants?
19:09:46 <elliott> ais523: pretty sure there is, yes
19:09:47 <elliott> ask cpressey :P
19:09:55 <elliott> ais523: they're pretty similar
19:09:57 <Gregor> Imperfect binary compatibility, but some.
19:09:59 <elliott> most development is like in drivers and stuff
19:10:48 <Vorpal> elliott, well, maybe he changed since back then, didn't knew him back then. I would classify him as a BSD licence fan. Oh and openly FreeBSD fan and linux hater.
19:10:58 <Vorpal> well, not linux hater. He dislikes linux though
19:11:05 <elliott> *groan* @ Linux "haters"
19:11:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yep
19:11:18 <elliott> It's one thing to prefer BSDs, and I'd probably agree.
19:11:23 <elliott> But c'mon, I mean, they're almost identical!
19:11:37 <elliott> You have to be the most narrow-minded idiot ever to *strongly* prefer one over the other!
19:12:00 <elliott> Vorpal: he called apache 1 a "BSD-style license"
19:12:01 <elliott> which is amusing
19:12:05 <elliott> as it has an advertising clause and also insanity
19:12:12 <elliott> also it is huge iicr
19:12:13 <elliott> *iirc
19:12:19 <Vorpal> elliott, well, he said he some years ago read a few thousand lines of the then current linux kernel source code, and since then he decided to not touch linux any more. That was at like 2.0 or something like that
19:12:27 <ais523> elliott: apache 2 is equally huge, but considerably saner
19:12:29 <evincar> I'm not sure it's valid to "strongly" prefer any particular operating system over another these days. There's compatibility where it matters and proprietary applications where there have to be or where developers are lazy.
19:12:30 <elliott> Vorpal: lol
19:12:42 <ais523> it's basically been described as BSD3 written by someone trying to cover every possible eventuality
19:12:51 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I wonder who put him up at that "python is awesome" thing...
19:15:36 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:15:40 <Vorpal> ais523, why not just make a generic match? I mean. I always thought that the "you are on your own" clause of normal BSD licenses was very wordy.
19:15:46 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:15:55 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:16:20 <ais523> apache2 is the sort of license lawyers like
19:16:22 <Vorpal> something like "I'm not responsible for any damage or other results that this software causes, no matter what"
19:16:25 <Vorpal> seems enough
19:17:09 <Vorpal> ais523, are there any holes in my example?
19:17:12 <evincar> There should be an "as-is" clause in Creative Commons.
19:17:24 <ais523> Vorpal: of course, there are holes in anything if you have sufficiently expensive lawyers
19:17:44 <Vorpal> ais523, but that is a blanket statement.... How could there possibly be any way around it
19:18:01 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I wonder who put him up at that "python is awesome" thing...
19:18:04 <elliott> Vorpal: GreaseMonkey, most likely
19:18:05 <ais523> Vorpal: law doesn't work like programming
19:18:07 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
19:18:09 <elliott> I informed GreaseMonkey that Python sucked
19:18:13 <elliott> and he was all
19:18:19 <ais523> in fact, such a disclaimer is probably completely invalid in the UK, as well as many other countries
19:18:19 <elliott> "No it's fast, see this mod player I wrote in it"
19:18:21 <elliott> and I was all
19:18:22 <ais523> for one thing, it isn't in allcaps
19:18:26 -!- EgoBot has joined.
19:18:32 <ais523> for another thing, it's probably illegally broad and doesn't have any severability clause
19:18:33 <elliott> "Nobody gives a shit, that has nothing to do with whether Python is good or not, or even whether it's fast or not really"
19:18:40 <Vorpal> elliott, yep, just got it confirmed
19:18:40 <elliott> "I wrote this mod player you see"
19:18:49 <elliott> Vorpal: CONVULSING WITH THE ENEMY?!
19:18:50 <elliott> *CONVERSING
19:19:20 <Vorpal> elliott, who? No, not greasemonkey.
19:19:26 <Vorpal> as in
19:19:31 <Vorpal> I didn't ask greasemonkey
19:19:34 <elliott> I meant awilcox.
19:19:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:19:35 <Vorpal> I asked awilcox
19:19:43 <elliott> The Python-loving, my-name-misspelling,
19:19:47 <elliott> bad-OS-writing, Apache-1-using,
19:19:51 <elliott> Linux-hating
19:19:53 <elliott> smelly person
19:19:56 <elliott> :|
19:20:17 <evincar> elliott: language. :P
19:20:22 -!- Gregor has joined.
19:20:32 <elliott> evincar: omg i said "smelly", shit :P
19:20:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: In *common law districts*, there are no holes in such a disclamer.
19:20:48 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest50677.
19:21:03 <evincar> "I'll ad your hominem."
19:21:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because the wording doesn't matter that much if the intent is clear.
19:21:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well, *shrug*.
19:21:28 <pikhq> Vorpal: However, under civil law, you need to be specific.
19:21:32 <elliott> evincar: I'll add your hominid to my collection.
19:21:50 -!- Guest50677 has changed nick to Gregor.
19:21:58 <pikhq> (note: specific wording helps in common law, because it makes the intent less debatable)
19:21:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, err, they don't accept Kleene star?
19:22:07 <Vorpal> which is what that is pretty much
19:22:13 <elliott> no it isn't
19:22:16 <elliott> it's more like shell glob
19:22:20 <Vorpal> elliott, well okay
19:22:20 <Vorpal> true
19:22:23 <elliott> and even despite that it's nothing like that at all
19:22:30 <elliott> Vorpal: it's like getting someone to sign a contract saying
19:22:41 <elliott> "If my machines of evil accidentally kill you and maul your spouse, it's not my fault"
19:22:43 <elliott> :P
19:22:54 <elliott> and then showing them into the Perfectly Locked Chamber of Evil
19:22:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: Most of the copyright licenses out there actually only really work under the US interpretation of copyright law.
19:22:58 <elliott> and turning ont he Machines of Evil
19:22:59 <elliott> *on the
19:23:13 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
19:23:14 <pikhq> This manages only to work because international treaties hack it all into working.
19:23:18 <Vorpal> elliott, that isn't accidental though
19:23:24 <Vorpal> elliott, since you turned it on
19:23:32 <elliott> Vorpal: The machines of evil were designed to make toast.
19:23:42 <elliott> Totally. It's right there on the website.
19:23:50 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, well, the shoving of them in there is suspect
19:23:51 <pikhq> Licenses that work in pretty much of the world include: GPLv3, the class of Creative Commons licenses.
19:23:59 <ais523> elliott: do you know why warranty disclaimers are always in allcaps? there's a law saying they have to be "prominent", and a court decision finding that being written in allcaps makes something prominent
19:24:00 <elliott> "I got a project to create a basic operating system which will just boot up and can run a calculator in it. I have 28 days to complete the project. I have absolute no idea about how to do it? What I know is basic C programming."
19:24:02 <evincar> elliott: Right, they need to turn it on for themselves, aware of the potential (or guaranteed) consequences of flipping the Doom Switch.
19:24:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm
19:24:08 <elliott> Someone's been posting on rent-a-coder sites!
19:24:18 <elliott> Or has just got homework in a class they are terribly badly equipped for.
19:24:19 <ais523> and so no lawyer even tries to use, say, bold
19:24:23 <elliott> ais523: you've said
19:24:30 <pikhq> GPLv3 by defining terms in such a way that it's independent of legal system, CC by having a set of essentially equivalent licenses for each country.
19:24:45 <elliott> evincar: Note: Flipping the Doom Switch is mandatory per the contract.
19:24:52 <Vorpal> ais523, wtf :D
19:24:55 <elliott> However, the flipper is still entirely responsible for whatever results.
19:25:11 <ais523> elliott: such contracts are illegal in the UK
19:25:15 <evincar> ais523: And in terms of legibility, all-caps legalese is even worse than ordinary legalese.
19:25:20 <ais523> evincar: I agree
19:25:30 <elliott> pikhq: so, basically, a bunch of platform abstraction functions vs. a bunch of ports
19:25:31 <elliott> pikhq: :)
19:25:33 <ais523> personally, I think burying something at the bottom of an EULA makes it non-prominent whether it's in allcaps or not
19:25:36 <ais523> but what do I know
19:25:41 <pikhq> elliott: Exactly.
19:25:50 <pikhq> elliott: CC actually calls it "jurisdiction ports".
19:26:27 <pikhq> ais523: Well, EULAs are of dubious legality in the US.
19:26:48 <ais523> in lots of places
19:26:58 <ais523> but a warranty disclaimer may survive disconnection from the EULA itself
19:27:32 <pikhq> I think the only ones that have been held up are designed in such a way that you can disagree with it and actually get your money back.
19:27:49 <pikhq> Though it's still ridiculous that they claim to set terms *more restrictive* than normal copyright.
19:27:52 <ais523> hmm, Slashdot story comes up that says the 2012 date is out by 60 days, rather than 208 years
19:28:14 <ais523> comments say that someone else calced it to be 4000 years out
19:28:21 <Vorpal> I would like a short concise license, that did: 1) I'm not responsible for damage (or anything else for that matter), no matter what 2) I'm the author, and if you reuse the code, you need to mention that you do so somewhere. 3) you can't use my name in advertising your product using my code (unless you have explicit permission from me)
19:28:37 <Vorpal> this is pretty much BSD, but well, it isn't concise
19:28:43 <ais523> conclusion: we don't really know how the mayan calendar syncs with ours
19:28:44 <Vorpal> it is too wordy
19:28:47 <ais523> Vorpal: BSD3 isn't wordy, really
19:28:53 <pikhq> Vorpal: Impossible in civil law.
19:28:55 <ais523> the whole thing fits onto a screen at once
19:29:04 <Vorpal> ais523, compared to how short it should be
19:29:15 <elliott> Vorpal: lol.
19:29:31 <elliott> Vorpal: (3) is implicit in all civilised countries
19:29:32 <elliott> so BSD2
19:29:49 <ais523> <acrobg> The apocalypse that won't happen Dec. 21, 2012 is now expected to not happen on Feb. 19, 2013...got it.
19:29:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: It needs to be explicit in the US. We despise civilization.
19:29:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, well then the obvious solution is to write a short liability clause and then only distribute the software under pseudonym, using tor to upload it for distribution
19:30:05 <evincar> elliott: Perhaps there ought to be a nice terse logical language for expressing legal predicates and consequents...
19:30:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, then if it causes damage they can't do anything about it anyway
19:30:12 <Vorpal> :D
19:30:16 <Gregor> The urge to click "WebPlat!" while on every page I visit is almost unbearable.
19:30:16 <ais523> evincar: there won't be, it would put certain lawyers out of a job
19:30:19 <elliott> evincar: terrible idea
19:30:25 <ais523> Gregor: what does WebPlat! do?
19:30:31 <ais523> oh, it's your platform game
19:30:33 <elliott> ais523: it's a platformer game played on web pages
19:30:43 <ais523> yep, just made the association with the conversation we'd been having
19:30:46 <evincar> ais523, elliott: Of course it's a terrible idea. I thought this site was in the business of terrible ideas in computer linguistics.
19:30:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, best to still make the other clauses longer, otherwise people might get around them in bad ways
19:30:58 <ais523> more... unconventional ideas
19:31:00 <ais523> some of them are actually good
19:31:03 <elliott> evincar: "Site"? "Computer linguistics"?
19:31:03 <ais523> occasionally
19:31:09 <evincar> Very true. I'm just playing.
19:31:10 <elliott> evincar: Community. Programming languages.
19:31:17 <elliott> Computer linguistics is computational linguistics is not programming :P
19:31:53 <evincar> Well, I was using "computer linguistics" to refer to something specifically *not* compuational linguistics.
19:32:02 <evincar> But yeah, community.
19:32:09 <evincar> *computational
19:32:18 <elliott> wow. OpenBSD has its own pkg-config
19:32:21 <elliott> because pkg-config is GPL'd...
19:32:22 <pikhq> People are critical of Creative Commons *under the premise that copyright law sucks*?
19:32:34 <pikhq> elliott: OpenBSD has its own most things.
19:32:41 <elliott> pikhq: yes, but still...
19:32:46 <elliott> that's like writing your own, I don't know, irssi
19:32:48 <elliott> sort of
19:32:55 <pikhq> elliott: I mean, why do you think they wrote OpenSSL?
19:33:04 <elliott> pikhq: desire to inject terrible code into the world?
19:33:16 <pikhq> Oh, wait, that's not them.
19:33:19 <elliott> I'd probably trust gnutls more than openssl, and that's saying something.
19:33:21 <pikhq> NAME CONFUSION
19:33:24 <elliott> yeah no openssl isn't them
19:33:40 <elliott> openssh is like the only good thing they've done :-P
19:33:49 -!- thebluestlight has joined.
19:33:56 <ais523> hmm, according to a Slashdot comment, the Mayan calendar was originally 260 days per year, but they changed it when it got out of sync
19:34:02 <ais523> which would presumably have happened pretty quickly
19:34:22 <pikhq> elliott: They're also responsible for some of GCC's "security" features.
19:34:31 <elliott> pikhq: -fno-fun
19:34:36 <pikhq> E.g., ProPolice.
19:34:45 <elliott> it's not called that any more :P
19:34:55 <elliott> it now has the incredibly catchy name:
19:34:59 <elliott> "stack smashing protector"
19:35:03 <pikhq> Bah.
19:35:30 <Vorpal> ais523, like... every few years?
19:35:32 <elliott> pikhq: Did you know: PuTTY is available for Linux?
19:35:35 <Gregor> elliott: Wall-clinging. Bad idea, or best idea ever?
19:35:41 <elliott> Gregor: BEST IDEA EVER OMG
19:35:42 <ais523> you know, I actually like the tendency of F/OSS projects to give things boring but descriptive names
19:35:51 <elliott> Gregor: Add a ninja rope like in Worms.
19:35:51 -!- tombom_ has joined.
19:35:52 -!- tombom_ has quit (Changing host).
19:35:52 -!- tombom_ has joined.
19:35:58 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, who doesn't
19:36:05 <ais523> "subpixel antialiasing" is so much more descriptive than "ClearType"
19:36:07 <elliott> ais523: I do too, except actually it's damn rare.
19:36:07 <pikhq> They've actually got quite a lot of good things done for security's sake. Which is good, because if they didn't do that actually well, then they'd basically have no reason to be used. :P
19:36:14 <elliott> ais523: GNOME basically invented doing that :P
19:36:21 <elliott> At least, as far as applications go.
19:36:22 <ais523> I couldn't figure out what the Windows option was meant to do when I first came across it
19:36:36 <elliott> ais523: well, "subpixel antialiasing" is also quite opaque...
19:36:44 <Vorpal> elliott, is it?
19:36:45 <ais523> well, it describes what it is pretty accurately
19:36:57 <pikhq> elliott: Unless you're aware of what a pixel is and what antialiasing is.
19:36:57 <ais523> you need to know what antialiasing is, ofc
19:37:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes.
19:37:08 <elliott> "Subfnur antihurklglur."
19:37:12 <pikhq> elliott: Whereas ClearType, you need to make a point of looking up what ClearType *is*.
19:37:17 <elliott> ais523: I'd go for "LCD-optimised rendering" or something.
19:37:19 <thebluestlight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Haj-CJOERTs&feature=related
19:37:22 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:37:29 <thebluestlight> Good documentary I got turned onto this week
19:37:30 <elliott> LCD is jargon too, but I figure it's gotta become universal sometime.
19:37:30 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a lie though
19:37:31 <Gregor> elliott: Too generic.
19:37:37 <elliott> Vorpal: no it's not
19:37:38 <pikhq> elliott: What's rendering?
19:37:41 <elliott> it's not the antialiasing per se that's subpixel
19:37:41 <ais523> elliott: you could use "flatscreen"
19:37:42 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you have against jargon?
19:37:49 <pikhq> elliott: Isn't that where you make lard?
19:37:50 <elliott> ais523: not all LCDs are flat screened, I'd assume :P
19:37:53 <ais523> which is what nontechnical users normally call them
19:37:56 <elliott> pikhq: True enough
19:37:59 <ais523> elliott: pretty much all
19:38:08 <pikhq> ais523: There's flatscreen CRTs.
19:38:10 <ais523> there's no reason to make an LCD screen thicker than flat
19:38:10 <elliott> Vorpal: I have nothing against jargon, I have something against pointless jargon, and something strongly for usability.
19:38:12 <Gregor> thebluestlight: People who come into IRC channels they've never been to before and immediately advertise some URL not related to the channel are rarely appreciated.
19:38:28 <ais523> pikhq: well, non-technical users seem to use "flat" to mean "thin" in this context, even though it doesn't mean that
19:38:29 <pikhq> (the display surface is flat)
19:38:29 <elliott> I don't think someone should have to learn what a pixel is, what a *sub*pixel is, and what antialiasing is, to know how to set the font rendering for their subpixel order.
19:38:41 <elliott> However, RGB has practically won.
19:38:48 <pikhq> ais523: They're marketed as flatscreen. Actually marketed.
19:38:51 <elliott> So in reality 90% of users never need to see that.
19:38:52 <ais523> pikhq: I know
19:38:55 -!- thebluestlight has left (?).
19:38:58 <elliott> You could put it in an Advanced section, but I see no reason not to make them readable too.
19:39:04 <Vorpal> elliott, it is perfectly usable to call it subpixel antialiasing! Do you try to replace words such as "clutch" and "accelerator" in cars too?
19:39:06 <Vorpal> you should
19:39:08 <ais523> anyway, flat CRTs are as far as I know only used in oscilloscopes
19:39:15 <Vorpal> they are opaque to someone who never heard of a car before
19:39:22 <Vorpal> elliott, especially clutch
19:39:24 <ais523> "accelerator" is pretty non-opaque
19:39:29 <ais523> it makes the car accelerate
19:39:31 <pikhq> ais523: High-end CRT displays.
19:39:33 <Vorpal> ais523, only if you know basic physics
19:39:33 <elliott> Meanwhile, I'm not talking to Vorpal because he compares a computer to a car.
19:39:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: In America, we replace "clutch" with "automatic transmission" ;)
19:39:41 <pikhq> (i.e. the only kind you can still purchase)
19:39:44 <ais523> elliott: never visit Slashdot
19:39:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, touche
19:39:55 <elliott> I wonder if Vorpal would like his washing machine to come plastered with washing machine engineer terminology.
19:40:03 <elliott> Perhaps he could take the time to learn it all?
19:40:05 <Vorpal> also I don't see the issue of comparing a computer to a car
19:40:12 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that would be cool
19:40:14 <ais523> elliott: they do, don't they?
19:40:20 <elliott> ais523: Uh, "cycle".
19:40:24 <elliott> That's... about it.
19:40:31 <ais523> elliott: discussion about limescale?
19:40:32 <Gregor> wtf is a cycle???
19:40:34 <Gregor> That is SO opaque.
19:40:35 <pikhq> Spin cycle. What does that mean?
19:40:39 <elliott> ais523: That's on the front of a washing machine?
19:40:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, or the "centrifuge"
19:40:45 <ais523> elliott: it's in the manual
19:40:45 <Gregor> pikhq: spin ... IN CIRCLES!
19:40:47 <pikhq> Maybe the machine itself spins?
19:40:48 <Vorpal> that is VERY opaque
19:40:50 <elliott> "I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT: Limescale in this tiny box."
19:41:00 <ais523> washing machines, you nearly always need to read the manual to use them properly
19:41:04 <pikhq> elliott: "Detergent". As opposed to "soap".
19:41:11 <pikhq> ais523: Nobody does.
19:41:13 <ais523> likewise, what's the difference between 30 and 60 degrees C?
19:41:14 <Vorpal> (besides isn't it centripetal!?)
19:41:15 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, seriously, I'm not arguing against all terminology.
19:41:22 <elliott> You know this.
19:41:24 <elliott> Don't be silly.
19:41:24 <ais523> Vorpal: no, it's the centrifugal effect
19:41:29 <Vorpal> ais523, right
19:41:44 <elliott> pikhq: I'm saying that "subpixel antialiasing" is *needlessly* jargon-filled.
19:41:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's just that the centrifugal force is make-believe.
19:41:45 <ais523> it's what you get when something was moving in a circle but you remove or reduce the centripetal force
19:42:03 <elliott> "Flat-screen optimised rendering" in the font configuration.
19:42:04 <ais523> the centrifugal effect turned out not to be a force, but it nevertheless exists, just has a different reason behind it
19:42:13 <ais523> whereas centripetal force does exist but is something else
19:42:54 <evincar> elliott: Not to mention the fact that antialiasing on a screen is already in some sense perceptually "subpixel"...
19:43:11 <ais523> hmm, that's a good point
19:43:14 <elliott> evincar: To the eye, yeah.
19:43:20 <ais523> elliott: to the calculator, too
19:43:26 <Vorpal> ais523, hm wrt. reading manuals. I have noted that multi-function printer/scanner/copier devices are often easier to use than plain old printers. Because the former often has at least a small display for showing options for copying. And uses that to display something like "paper jam" or "out of black ink". While the latter uses like 3 LEDs and blinks them in different combinations to indicate different
19:43:26 <Vorpal> errors.
19:43:27 <ais523> if everything fell on exact pixels, antialiasing wouldn't be necessary
19:43:29 <evincar> I'm a pixel artist. I ought to know these things.
19:43:46 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm a fan of reading manuals, but I'm unusual in that respect, I think
19:43:50 <elliott> Heh, I would imagine most pixel artists like to pretend font antialiasing doesn't even exist :)
19:43:58 <ais523> when people get new technology, I habitually ask them for the manual
19:44:05 <ais523> so I can read it
19:44:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: You should just purchase better printers.
19:44:22 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:44:31 <evincar> Not really. AA is one of the fundamental techniques of PA.
19:44:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, I do purchase the good ones I mentioned
19:44:43 <elliott> Vorpal: Is it inkjet?
19:44:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: If it's inkjet it sucks.
19:44:53 <elliott> What pikhq said.
19:44:54 <elliott> :P
19:45:01 <elliott> I need to obtain a nice little B&W laser printer sometime.
19:45:05 <Vorpal> elliott, inkjet yes because laser sucks at photo printing. Or did back when I bought it at least
19:45:19 <Vorpal> elliott, and I do much more photo printing than b&w text
19:45:27 <elliott> That's because you don't have a laser printer.
19:45:48 <Vorpal> elliott, har har
19:45:49 <elliott> ais523: thing I love: someone came in here to spam a Zionist documentary, and left, we didn't even notice
19:45:51 <elliott> *and we didn't even notice
19:46:00 <elliott> well, anti-Zionist or something
19:46:02 <pikhq> Color laser is *pricier*, but definitely higher quality.
19:46:03 <ais523> oh, I noticed someone came in here to spam
19:46:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, in this case I was thinking of my own HP multi-function printer, and my dad's simple hp printer. The latter is one of those that uses led to indicate failures
19:46:13 <ais523> and checked to see spambot vs. human, things seem to point towards human
19:46:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, does it work on photo paper though?
19:46:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: You'd need to check.
19:46:34 <Gregor> elliott, ais523: I noticed, didn't know what he advertised though :P
19:46:42 <ais523> my (link) replacement works just great against that sort of spam
19:46:45 <elliott> Gregor: We didn't say anything, then.
19:46:50 <ais523> (in fact, I came up with the idea during that gay porn troll incident)
19:46:58 <elliott> thing I hate about bash_completion:
19:47:02 <Gregor> elliott: I'm not part of that "we" :P
19:47:03 <elliott> it doesn't sync with globbing
19:47:16 <elliott> imo, if i tab and see a bunch of options, I should be able to type * and have it expanded to be all of them
19:47:33 <elliott> <Gregor> thebluestlight: People who come into IRC channels they've never been to before and immediately advertise some URL not related to the channel are rarely appreciated.
19:47:34 <elliott> oh indeed
19:47:37 <elliott> well we didn't notice you :D
19:47:42 <Gregor> X-P
19:47:42 <evincar> elliott: Write a patch. :P
19:47:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: If you get a laser printer, expect it to last a couple decades.
19:47:45 <ais523> elliott: it seems to be only you who didn't notice
19:47:49 <elliott> <elliott> "Flat-screen optimised rendering" in the font configuration.
19:47:50 <ais523> most people noticed, just didn't care
19:47:55 <elliott> oh, that can be simplified further
19:47:59 <elliott> "Flat-screen optimised display"
19:48:00 <pikhq> (whereas inkjet, it's often cheaper to buy a new printer than to buy ink...)
19:48:03 <elliott> (in the font configuration, that is)
19:48:09 <ais523> elliott: "Optimise for flat screens"
19:48:10 <elliott> (not just "general flatscreen optimised display" :P)
19:48:13 <elliott> ais523: oh, of course
19:48:16 <elliott> ais523 wins
19:48:27 <ais523> next, how are you going to explain the RGB vs. BGR issue? just assume RGB?
19:48:35 <elliott> ais523: *Optimise display for flat screens
19:48:55 <ais523> elliott: I was assuming that this would be in a section of display-related things
19:48:58 <elliott> ais523: i think that assuming RGB and not even exposing an interface to change it will be the obvious thing to do in a few years
19:49:06 <ais523> the adjustment was specifically to get rid of the "display" word
19:49:09 <elliott> ais523: because people are realising how silly different orders are
19:49:15 <elliott> ais523: right now, ehh
19:49:16 <ais523> elliott: well, it's more arbitrary
19:49:22 <elliott> if someone has such a display they almost certainly know
19:49:23 <ais523> there's no real reason to pick any particular order
19:49:26 <elliott> and they can click "Advanced" or whatever
19:49:40 <elliott> (although I dislike "Advanced" screens it fits in this case)
19:49:40 <ais523> I suppose RGB is winning by random drift + mimicking competitors
19:49:44 <elliott> ais523: right, so pick one consistently :P
19:49:57 <elliott> ais523: well, RGB already won for TVs looong ago, as the way to name the system
19:50:10 <elliott> saying "RGB is displayed as RGB subpixels" is a lot less silly than anything else
19:50:13 <elliott> since it's arbitrary
19:50:20 <elliott> ais523: although, I wonder if subpixel rendering looks best with a certain order?
19:50:31 <elliott> taking advantage of blue being the least visible colour or whatever (yeah, I didn't word that right; whatever)
19:50:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm. my printer is inkjet and is already 7 years old and works perfectly
19:50:57 <ais523> elliott: hmm
19:51:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay, the plastic cover looks a bit faded from sunlight, but that is it.
19:51:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Surprising. Most of them stop working in a year.
19:51:27 <pikhq> Vorpal: And cost less than the ink.
19:51:38 <elliott> Vorpal: ink prices are carefully controlled so that ink is more expensive than the printer
19:51:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, it's a HP PSC 2175. Good quality I guess.
19:51:40 <ais523> (fun fact: when I zoom in on a window using super-mousewheel, the antialiasing becomes visible as it's scaled up pixel-wise; this is how I test that antialiasing is actually working)
19:51:46 <elliott> I suspect some illegal price fixing is involved, or something
19:51:50 <Vorpal> hm, might not be 7, could be 6 or 5
19:51:57 <Vorpal> not completely sure
19:51:59 <elliott> because even the fanciest printer is cheaper than its ink
19:52:17 <elliott> ais523: it smooths the result here though, which makes it less clear
19:52:19 <Vorpal> elliott, third party ink refills then
19:52:19 <elliott> although you can set it not to
19:52:20 <ais523> elliott: I'm surprised people haven't cottoned onto the idea of buying throwaway printers just for the ink supply
19:52:28 <ais523> elliott: here too, but it's still clear enough
19:52:50 <ais523> (actually, some printer manufacturers have noticed that that's possible, and have been selling printers with nearly empty ink cartridges)
19:53:29 <elliott> Vorpal: not really
19:53:33 <elliott> the printer is still often cheaper
19:54:05 <Vorpal> mhm
19:54:41 <pikhq> Which is not the case for toner.
19:54:42 <Vorpal> didn't kodak or someone claim they were going to start selling expensive printer/cheap ink or something?
19:54:53 <ais523> kodak have been advertising that incessantly recently
19:54:59 <Vorpal> ais523, is it true or?
19:55:03 <ais523> I don't know
19:55:10 <ais523> the mere fact that it's advertised doesn't make it true
19:55:14 <ais523> they did claim it, though
19:56:20 <Vorpal> ais523, "<ais523> the mere fact that it's advertised doesn't make it true" <-- ... that is why I asked if it was true or not
19:56:44 <ais523> printer manufacturers are like credit card companies, nowadays
19:56:55 <ais523> for all I know, they may do expensive printer / cheap ink then raise the price of the ink later
19:57:25 <Vorpal> ais523, with credit card companies do you mean like visa and mastercard, or the issuing companies (the banks that is)
19:57:42 <elliott> how do you send Ctrl+Alt+Fn to a VirtualBox VM?
19:58:42 <ais523> Fn only exists on laptops...
19:58:43 <Vorpal> ais523, also... um I fail to see how "raise the prise of ink later" is like a credit card company.
19:58:50 <ais523> Vorpal: interest rates
19:59:10 <Vorpal> ais523, those stay relatively fixed iirc? though I personally stick to debit cards.
19:59:32 <pikhq> elliott: Use the left Ctrl.
19:59:42 <elliott> pikhq: I... did.
19:59:48 <pikhq> elliott: It's only the right Ctrl that VirtualBox grabs...
19:59:48 <elliott> pikhq: It changes my host Ubuntu's virtual desktop.
19:59:55 <pikhq> elliott: ...
20:00:02 <pikhq> elliott: GOD DAMNED X11.
20:00:11 <elliott> No, that's the kernel :P
20:00:13 <Vorpal> I always found it annoying that it is impossible to send stuff like ctrl-alt-f2 to virtualbox.
20:00:16 <elliott> "Then in June, Sheikh Abdul-Mohsen al-Obeikan, an adviser to the royal court, issued a religious ruling saying unrelated women could mingle with an unrelated man if he drank her breast milk five times from a glass"
20:00:20 <Vorpal> or impossible as far as I can tell
20:00:24 <elliott> "That is the interpretation made by a number of muslim clerics and scholars as to what constitutes "adoption" -- if a person drinks a woman's breast milk, that woman is considered to be his/her mother. In this case, the man would be her son, and thus a family member, circumventing the taboo about not mixing unescorted with women who are not of your family."
20:00:36 <pikhq> elliott: No, X11 has full control of the keyboard when it's displaying.
20:00:41 <elliott> tl;dr to mingle with an unrelated woman, drink her breast milk five times from a glass; she is now your mother and it is okay.
20:00:42 <pikhq> elliott: It passes that through.
20:00:46 <elliott> pikhq: Ugh.
20:00:56 <elliott> pikhq: Then how come it works even when X is hung?
20:01:10 <pikhq> ... Oh right it does.
20:01:13 <pikhq> I'm wrong!
20:01:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes and no. Fn on my laptop is.... strange. It doesn't register straight away, and if you press fn+home (handled by hardware and/or bios to toggle keyboard lighting stuff) it never reaches X or even the kernel as far as I can tell
20:01:45 <pikhq> elliott: Shariah is ridiculous.
20:01:47 <elliott> ("In 2002, religious police prohibited girls from leaving a burning school in Jeddah because their heads weren’t veiled. Fourteen died in the incident, causing uproar in the kingdom.")
20:01:56 <elliott> pikhq: Ridiculous and horrific.
20:01:59 <pikhq> Yes.
20:02:13 <pikhq> And often completely and utterly made up.
20:03:25 <ais523> there was that widely publicised story recently about a house that burnt down because its owner lived in a district that required a referendum for new public services, had repeatedly voted against a fire service to keep taxes down, and hadn't paid the fire service from the neighbouring district to put out fires on their house (at $75 a year)
20:05:10 <elliott> heh
20:05:11 <ais523> this seems to be a pretty pure expression of a free-market economy...
20:05:13 <pikhq> (The *requirement* that women be fully veiled, for instance, was invented last century. Previously, it was just a common thing in some Islamic traditions.)
20:05:27 <elliott> pikhq: ...right ctrl+alt+Fn actually works.
20:05:36 <pikhq> elliott: Huh.
20:05:37 <elliott> Presumably VirtualBox intercepts it and goes "no, X11, I want that".
20:05:37 <ais523> (the fire service did turn up, but only for the purpose of preventing the fire spreading to the houses of people who did actually pay)
20:05:58 <elliott> ais523: now: did the owner of the house vote for the services? :p
20:06:15 <ais523> elliott: I doubt it, somehow
20:06:39 <elliott> ais523: still, I have to wonder how people can just stand around and let that happen
20:06:42 <ais523> I imagine that most people who voted in favour of a tax to pay for a fire service, also paid the $75 yearly for the adjacent district to cover their house
20:06:54 <elliott> true
20:07:03 <elliott> wait
20:07:10 <elliott> pikhq: does the US have a public fire service everywhere?
20:07:54 <pikhq> elliott: Most places.
20:08:03 <elliott> pikhq: phew.
20:08:12 <pikhq> elliott: But not necessarily everywhere; it is done by the county government.
20:08:24 <elliott> pikhq: I almost thought you were no better than the Romans. :P
20:08:26 <pikhq> Or the city government.
20:08:32 <pikhq> So if people in the county are complete retards, they have no fire department.
20:08:40 <ais523> elliott: there's no federal fire service, but most states/districts/counties arrange something themselves
20:08:40 <elliott> (WHAT HAVE THEY DONE FOR US?)
20:08:46 <elliott> ais523: right.
20:08:52 <elliott> the US is so bizarre
20:08:59 <evincar> Oh hey.
20:09:08 <evincar> I had an idea a while back that might interest you.
20:09:13 <elliott> ais523: btw, you said you liked the coalition -- any thoughts on the plan to raise the tuition fee cap, which the lib dems explicitly said they would entirely oppose pre-election?
20:09:15 <pikhq> Still, *pretty much everywhere* you'll at least have a group of volunteers on call.
20:09:16 <ais523> centralising the fire service federally is something that Americans probably wouldn't even consider, it goes against the philosophy
20:09:18 <evincar> "Opensourcia."
20:09:27 <elliott> (a website registered by the lib dems got redirected to a youtube video where they stated so...)
20:09:31 <elliott> (cracked, obviously)
20:09:46 <ais523> elliott: I'm confused, in that at least 2 and probably 3 of the major parties radically changed their opinion on tuition fees recently
20:10:06 <pikhq> ais523: Well, it goes against the original philosophy to have the federal government do just about anything that could reasonably be done by a single state.
20:10:08 <ais523> what surprises me more is that Labour were a huge advocate of tuition fees for the last 8 years or so, then suddenly started opposing them
20:10:09 <elliott> ais523: I doubt the Lib Dems want it.
20:10:16 <pikhq> ais523: And that got thrown out the window ages ago.
20:10:21 <elliott> ais523: I imagine they have just become accustomed to, well, taking it in the ass from the Tories.
20:10:27 <elliott> Like they've been doing the entire coalition.
20:10:37 <ais523> elliott: well, they have massively fewer MPs
20:10:49 <ais523> really, party politics doesn't make a whole lot of sense
20:11:02 <ais523> anyway, when you look at the alternative suggestions, they actually all come out equivalent, pretty much
20:11:26 <elliott> Hows about we just take a cue from the Europeans about ... uh, most things.
20:11:41 <ais523> the competing suggestions are tuition fee (which you're given a student loan for, so you lose a certain amount of money upfront but are given an equal amount, then have to pay a percentage of your income for years after that until you've paid it back)
20:11:50 * elliott is mauled by every reader of the Daily Mail
20:11:54 <elliott> (simultaneously)
20:12:01 <ais523> and a graduate tax (after graduating, the government takes a precentage of your income years after that to fund your education)
20:12:11 <ais523> note: these two are, effectively, identical
20:12:17 <ais523> but nobody's noticed yet, and are bitching about which is better
20:12:18 <elliott> pikhq: wait, i was wrong
20:12:25 <elliott> ctrl+alt+n instead of Fn just works in debian and not here
20:12:26 <elliott> so it all works out
20:12:28 <ais523> so really, it's all just semantics
20:12:44 <elliott> ais523: You forgot "abolish tuition fees altogether".
20:12:52 <elliott> Or was that your non-alternative one?
20:13:14 <ais523> elliott: the advocates of that (lib dems last year, labour this year) advocated a graduate tax at the same time
20:13:30 <Vorpal> <ais523> centralising the fire service federally is something that Americans probably wouldn't even consider, it goes against the philosophy <-- please please don't tell me that it is privately owned...
20:13:32 <elliott> the europeans do none of that, don't they?
20:13:39 <elliott> Vorpal: some are
20:13:49 <elliott> Vorpal: there are mostly public services too, though, apparently
20:13:58 <elliott> <ais523> there was that widely publicised story recently about a house that burnt down because its owner lived in a district that required a referendum for new public services, had repeatedly voted against a fire service to keep taxes down, and hadn't paid the fire service from the neighbouring district to put out fires on their house (at $75 a year)
20:14:12 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf, so they will only try to put out a fire if you pay a subscription or something?
20:14:24 <elliott> Vorpal: That was how the original fire department operated.
20:14:24 <ais523> Vorpal: the district they were in didn't have a fire service
20:14:35 <ais523> the neighbouring district had a fire services, paid by taxes, for its own citizens
20:14:39 <Vorpal> elliott, but fires spread, so this make no sense
20:14:45 <elliott> Vorpal: They came to the house.
20:14:48 <ais523> and offered to cover houses in the district without a fire service for $75 per year per house
20:14:48 <elliott> Vorpal: They stopped it spreading anywhere else.
20:14:54 <elliott> (Because their paying customers were next door.)
20:15:00 <elliott> But they did not put out the fire on the house itself.
20:15:03 <Gregor> Yay for fire extortion!
20:15:05 <elliott> It was not owned by a paying customer.
20:15:12 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf
20:15:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: They would often offer to purchase the house for a stipend and then put out the fire.
20:15:21 <Vorpal> this is just so completely backwards
20:15:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Your house appears to be burning down. Just call me Marcus Licinius Crassus. Now I have a proposition for you...
20:15:46 <Vorpal> what about wildfires then
20:16:02 <Vorpal> elliott, XD
20:16:17 * elliott wonders if Vorpal *actually* got that
20:16:36 <elliott> "One of his most lucrative schemes took advantage of the fact that Rome had no fire department. Crassus filled this void by creating his own brigade--500 men strong--which rushed to burning buildings at the first cry of alarm. Upon arriving at the scene, however, the fire fighters did nothing while their employer bargained over the price of their services with the distressed property owner. If Crassus could not negotiate a satisfactory price, his
20:16:36 <elliott> men simply let the structure burn to the ground, after which he offered to purchase it for a fraction of its value."
20:17:08 <Vorpal> elliott, that sounds familiar
20:17:20 <Vorpal> elliott, but even without knowing that, it was funny
20:18:22 <elliott> Small chance of weather, also death.
20:18:34 <pikhq> Oh, there actually is federal firefighting in the US. Wildfires are handled by FEMA.
20:18:43 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, fires are inherently a common issue. They spread, they can become wildfires in the right conditions
20:19:23 -!- h0x5f3759df has joined.
20:19:27 <Vorpal> I wonder why California gets so many wildfires each year... I mean, how can there be anything burnable left there by now?
20:19:28 <elliott> does anyone know a reliable way to sleep forever in a shell not using e.g. a loop of sleeps?
20:19:35 <elliott> "wait 1" unfortunately doesn't work, since wait isn't your child
20:19:45 <ais523> elliott: why would he offer to purchase the house after it had already burnt down?
20:19:54 <h0x5f3759df> Is this a programming channel of esoteric languages ?
20:19:56 <Vorpal> elliott, hm why do you want to do this?
20:19:58 <elliott> h0x5f3759df: Yes.
20:20:03 <elliott> h0x5f3759df: Well, on an on-topic day.
20:20:06 <elliott> They are rare but extant!
20:20:12 -!- Agentorange has joined.
20:20:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Curiosity. Also as a thing that could go last in an .xinitrc.
20:20:14 <h0x5f3759df> PL/I guys here ?
20:20:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and the obvious way is to just leave the prompt there, waiting for input :P
20:20:21 <ais523> hmm, is PL/I esoteric?
20:20:27 <Vorpal> elliott, then the shell is just sleeping, waiting for IO
20:20:29 <pikhq> ais523: Property is valuable.
20:20:39 <elliott> PL/I is probably crazy but not likelily esoteric
20:20:46 <elliott> hmm, how do you spell likelily?
20:20:47 <Vorpal> elliott, in .xinitrc it would be trickier
20:20:48 <elliott> :P
20:20:54 <h0x5f3759df> :(
20:20:57 <ais523> elliott: the word is "likely"
20:20:59 -!- Agentorange has left (?).
20:21:00 -!- h0x5f3759df has left (?).
20:21:01 <Vorpal> elliott, just make it exec a short 3-line C program that just sleeps?
20:21:03 <elliott> ais523: shaddap
20:21:04 <elliott> oh my
20:21:07 <Vorpal> elliott, or exec the session manager or such
20:21:11 -!- ssice has joined.
20:21:12 <elliott> we scared him away
20:21:16 <evincar> Aww, I was going to compliment h0x5f3759df on his choice of username. :(
20:21:40 <ais523> is that... a hexadecimal floating point number?
20:21:59 <evincar> Yes, it's the magic fast square root.
20:22:07 <evincar> Er, inverse square root.
20:22:17 <ais523> PL/I doesn't look particularly insane to me
20:23:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:23:57 <elliott> Vorpal: for the record
20:24:02 <elliott> read </dev/full is either dangerous
20:24:04 <elliott> or VirtualBox is
20:24:18 <Vorpal> elliott, why? Shouldn't it just give an IO error or something
20:24:33 <elliott> Vorpal: it hangs forever, except my system hung too, but it seems that was virtualbox
20:24:40 <elliott> Vorpal: feel free to try; if it does hang forever, mwahaha! i win!
20:24:41 <Vorpal> elliott, also /dev/full is an extremely silly IO device
20:24:43 <elliott> Vorpal: i think it, like, sucks up memory
20:24:44 <elliott> or something
20:28:21 -!- ssice has left (?).
20:32:58 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, propose in C how to sleep forever without looping a sleep?
20:35:11 <evincar> Spawn a thread, tell it to wait for a signal, then never send it the signal? Though that's basically the same...
20:36:36 <elliott> I don't mind using sleeping, just not long-sleep-in-a-loop
20:38:31 -!- Agentorange has joined.
20:38:49 <Agentorange> Why isn't there a room for the language BrainFuck?
20:38:59 <elliott> Agentorange: it is.
20:39:00 <elliott> and it's here.
20:39:07 <elliott> *there is.
20:39:12 <Agentorange> That is a false statement sir.
20:39:18 <Agentorange> Your room is about esoteric.......
20:39:28 <elliott> Agentorange: Esoteric programming languages.
20:39:31 <elliott> Of which Brainfuck is one.
20:39:36 <Agentorange> .... I don't think so.
20:39:54 <elliott> Vorpal: evincar: anyone: please assure Agentorange here.
20:39:59 <elliott> Agentorange: Brainfuck is an esoteric programming language.
20:40:04 <elliott> Agentorange: I quote Wikipedia:
20:40:08 <pikhq> elliott:
20:40:08 <elliott> Agentorange: "The brainfuck programming language is an esoteric programming language noted for its extreme minimalism."
20:40:16 <Agentorange> .... Touche
20:40:21 <elliott> "An esoteric programming language (sometimes shortened to esolang) is a programming language designed as a test of the boundaries of computer programming language design, as a proof of concept, or as a joke. There is usually no intention of the language being adopted for real-world programming. Such languages are often popular among hackers and hobbyists. This use of esoteric is meant to distinguish these languages from more popular programming l
20:40:21 <elliott> anguages." --also Wikipedia
20:40:22 <Agentorange> However, I think it's too good to be one.
20:40:30 <elliott> ...
20:40:34 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, wait for a signal...
20:40:35 <elliott> Agentorange: "Esoteric" does not mean "bad".
20:40:39 <elliott> That's frankly quite offensive.
20:40:45 <Agentorange> ..... Elliot, you realize I'm trolling hard right?
20:40:50 <elliott> There are many interesting, worthwhile esolangs.
20:40:58 <elliott> Agentorange: *Elliott, and you wouldn't believe how many idiots say shit like that.
20:41:00 <Agentorange> ...... You realize I'm trolling hard...... right?
20:41:10 <elliott> i wanted to believe you were joking
20:41:12 <pikhq> elliott: int pause(void); should do it, except for the bit about getting out of the sleep.
20:41:16 <Agentorange> I believe I would believe so.
20:41:17 <elliott> but couldn't, because people are actually like that
20:41:46 <elliott> pikhq: for (;;) pause() is fine, I guess.
20:41:54 <elliott> I just didn't want for (;;) sleep(big) because that's boring.
20:41:59 <Agentorange> Elliott, I came in here to troll out of sheer boredom.... And my python work is finished, so I have nothing to do in my class for about four hours.
20:42:13 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, pause sleeps until you get a signal, and only ever returns if the signal handler returns.
20:42:15 <elliott> Agentorange: Are you going to stop trolling, or?
20:42:19 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, true.
20:42:19 <Agentorange> So I figure "why not make other people equally miserable as I am"
20:42:27 <Agentorange> No, I've stopped, now I'm explaining why.
20:42:28 <elliott> pikhq: Set pause as your signal handler.
20:42:32 <Agentorange> You should be able to tell.
20:42:33 <elliott> Agentorange: Okay.
20:42:34 <pikhq> elliott: Victory.
20:43:05 <pikhq> elliott: Though you could just not set them and then it'll do sane things.
20:43:16 <elliott> Agentorange: Are you named after the herbicide/etc.?
20:43:44 <Agentorange> Sometimes, when I'm alone in my dorm, I like to think of all the ways that I can troll people. You see, I do not have a life. I am a registered sex offender in seventeen countries. I am a raging alcoholic. I once made a pornography named "Enraged Baboons Fudging Nipple Factories"....
20:43:57 <Agentorange> No, I'm actually named after my old high school robotics team (not a troll)
20:44:13 <elliott> Agentorange: Seventeen countries -- decrease that number and it's more realistic.
20:44:15 <evincar> Agentorange: You don't seem to have the heart to troll properly.
20:44:22 <elliott> Yeah Agentorange is an underachiever.
20:44:25 <elliott> He should go shoot himself right now.
20:44:29 <evincar> We love him anyway.
20:44:32 <Agentorange> Evincar, first one might realize what a troll 'does'.
20:44:32 <elliott> (if he actually does this, I plead the whateverth)
20:44:42 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: evincar: anyone: please assure Agentorange here. <-- err, no this is not for brainfuck obviously. That would be on topic
20:44:42 <Agentorange> And when we have Elliott saying I should shoot myself.
20:44:51 <Agentorange> It renders me to believe I am successful.
20:44:56 <Agentorange> Thus encouraging my behaviour.
20:45:02 <elliott> Right, I'm an enabler.
20:45:24 <Agentorange> A troll is someone who does something negative or off-topic specifically to incipit negative feedback from the receiving party.
20:45:44 <Agentorange> So Evincar, there is no way to "troll properly".
20:46:07 <Agentorange> Theoretically, the greatest troll in the world could be someone who bangs his head on the keyboard repeatedly while pressing enter.
20:46:11 <elliott> I could note how trolling that nobody believes or gets angry about isn't actually trolling but THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO SAY
20:46:14 <evincar> Agentorange: Yeah, but you'd be more effective at it if you could commit to it.
20:46:15 <Agentorange> He'd be by definition, the greatest troll ever.
20:46:21 <elliott> You /are/ irritating, but for other reasons entirely.
20:46:31 <Agentorange> Evincar, I got someone telling me to shoot myself... in three minutes.
20:46:37 <Agentorange> I think I'm being pretty effective.
20:46:42 <evincar> And that's not what "incipit" means, by the way.
20:46:44 <Agentorange> Considering I am still holding your attention.
20:46:49 <evincar> Well, you're something to do, certainly.
20:46:51 <elliott> <evincar> Agentorange: You don't seem to have the heart to troll properly.
20:46:51 <elliott> <elliott> Yeah Agentorange is an underachiever.
20:46:51 <elliott> <elliott> He should go shoot himself right now.
20:46:59 <Agentorange> Yes.
20:47:01 <elliott> Context is for the weak and the suicidal!
20:47:04 <Agentorange> I did cite that.
20:47:09 * Agentorange claps
20:47:31 <elliott> So by "I'm not trolling any more" you meant "I'm still trolling really terribly, I'm just going to be stupid and irritating about it".
20:47:40 <elliott> You can only troll people with something better to do.
20:47:42 <pikhq> Agentorange: A superior troll would lead us on for a while before noting that he is a Gay Nigger, and a member of the associated Association, in America.
20:47:46 <elliott> We're in #esoteric; figure it out.
20:47:53 <elliott> "the associated Association"
20:47:57 <Agentorange> So far, I have everyones undivided attention.
20:48:07 <elliott> Agentorange: Before you, nobody had anyone's attention.
20:48:09 <Agentorange> I'd say I'm pretty effective.
20:48:10 <elliott> Because we weren't talking.
20:48:14 <elliott> This is merely amusing and slightly irritating.
20:48:15 <Agentorange> How long has this been?
20:48:20 <Agentorange> You make this seem like a span of two years.
20:48:22 <elliott> Agentorange: I hope that gives meaning to your life.
20:48:26 <evincar> Six-odd minutes.
20:48:26 <Agentorange> It does!
20:48:31 <elliott> Half-assed attention of about seven people online. Joy!
20:48:35 <Agentorange> Nothing else interests me due to the fact it's too remedial.
20:48:35 <pikhq> Pretty sad life.
20:48:54 <Agentorange> I enjoy doing this, it gives me happiness.
20:49:03 <elliott> Agentorange: So how smart do you think you are?
20:49:04 <Agentorange> This is what wakes me up in the morning.
20:49:10 <Agentorange> Making people angry on the internet.
20:49:11 <Agentorange> I r dumz
20:49:21 <pikhq> Especially sad to suck at the only thing that gives you happiness.
20:49:26 <elliott> , he says, secretly pondering how much more intelligent than mechanical society he is
20:49:42 <Agentorange> Pikhq, I still have your attention and I've never addressed you till now. I think I'm doing pretty damn good.
20:49:50 <Agentorange> Elliott, I never said that!
20:49:56 <pikhq> I do believe this has hit metatrolling.
20:50:00 <Agentorange> Now you're just being presumptuous.
20:50:02 <elliott> Please stop capitalising people's nicks who aren't.
20:50:02 <pikhq> Which actually is slightly impressive.
20:50:08 <evincar> I just got the urge to write something in Lisp, but I can never pick an implementation. :P
20:50:12 <Agentorange> Elliott, problem?
20:50:16 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, he's decided that the best way to utilise his terrible trolling skills is to troll about his trolling.
20:50:19 <pikhq> evincar: Write your own. It's tradition!
20:50:23 <Gregor> Yeah, definitely an engine for a Web Treasure Hunt ... any given game would start you at some "hub" page, and you wander around the web looking for e.g. certain images, tags or text.
20:50:26 <evincar> pikhq: Assuredly.
20:50:29 <elliott> It's amusing, like watching a retarded dog hits head against the wall repeatedly.
20:50:31 <elliott> And then crying.
20:50:34 <elliott> And then you kick it.
20:50:36 <elliott> And it squeals.
20:50:40 <Gregor> Other images, tags or text could be enemies that come flying at you for teh killzorz.
20:50:40 * elliott kicks Agentorange. Squeal!
20:50:42 <Agentorange> hah! That amuses you?
20:50:47 <Agentorange> And you say I have a sad life. :3
20:50:49 <evincar> Well, class is over. Be back this evening.
20:51:02 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: This is a quit message.).
20:51:07 <Agentorange> Oh no! NOT E-VIOLINS
20:51:09 <elliott> pikhq: Is this approaching meta-meta-trolling? Whatever it is it's terrible.
20:51:23 <Agentorange> Elliott, yes..... yes..... let the butthurt flow through you.
20:51:33 <pikhq> Agentorange: Eh, not enough GNAA.
20:51:36 <Agentorange> Elliott, can you not see they've gone to different topics of conversation?
20:51:42 <Agentorange> Well, nevermind pikhq went to me.
20:51:42 <elliott> I wonder if this is what constitutes a 4chan troll these days.
20:51:46 <elliott> Can I get Usenet back?
20:51:52 <Agentorange> Elliott, my point is, is that you are still talking to me.
20:51:58 <Agentorange> Also, 4chan blows.
20:51:59 <elliott> Agentorange: You think I have anything better to do?
20:52:04 <Agentorange> You think I don't?
20:52:17 <elliott> <Agentorange> Also, 4chan blows. ;; interesting statement for someone who's referencing a 4chan meme every .5 seconds
20:52:36 <Agentorange> So, you're basing the fact that I shouldn't think I'm so successful to hold your attention so long because you suck at finding things to do, and/or your mind is too feeble to do so.
20:52:50 <elliott> Relevant: http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/7/73/Trollface.png
20:53:09 <Agentorange> Ya'know, that trollface should be in a jpeg format.
20:53:14 <Agentorange> There's no reason for it to be in a png.
20:53:25 <Agentorange> There's not multiple busy colours and a large resolution.
20:53:33 <elliott> Oh please, you're not even trying any more.
20:53:39 <Agentorange> Was I ever?
20:53:43 <Agentorange> I'm having a great time.
20:54:02 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, remember the Funge-98 group spec reading?
20:54:08 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah?
20:54:10 <elliott> pikhq: I'm thinkin' War and Peace now.
20:54:12 <Agentorange> 4chan meme every .5 seconds?
20:54:15 <Agentorange> All I said was trolling.
20:54:22 <Agentorange> And that verb didn't come from 4chan anyway.
20:54:27 <elliott> <Agentorange> Elliott, problem?
20:54:27 <elliott> <Agentorange> Elliott, yes..... yes..... let the butthurt flow through you.
20:54:27 <Agentorange> I said that repeatedly granted.
20:54:32 <elliott> Trollface "problem?" is 4chan.
20:54:34 <elliott> "butthurt" is 4chan.
20:54:37 <Agentorange> Wrong.
20:54:37 <Agentorange> Wrong.
20:54:39 <elliott> And this, my friends, is War and Peace:
20:54:40 <Agentorange> Double wrong.
20:54:47 <Agentorange> Butthurt is from "failblog"
20:54:52 <elliott> BOOK ONE: 1805
20:54:52 <elliott> CHAPTER I
20:54:52 <elliott> "Well, Prince, so Genoa and Lucca are now just family estates of the
20:54:52 <elliott> Buonapartes. But I warn you, if you don't tell me that this means war,
20:54:52 <elliott> if you still try to defend the infamies and horrors perpetrated by that
20:54:53 <elliott> Antichrist--I really believe he is Antichrist--I will have nothing more
20:54:55 <elliott> to do with you and you are no longer my friend, no longer my 'faithful
20:54:57 <elliott> slave,' as you call yourself! But how do you do? I see I have frightened
20:54:59 <elliott> you--sit down and tell me all the news."
20:55:01 <elliott> It was in July, 1805, and the speaker was the well-known Anna Pavlovna
20:55:03 <elliott> Scherer, maid of honor and favorite of the Empress Marya Fedorovna. With
20:55:05 <elliott> these words she greeted Prince Vasili Kuragin, a man of high rank and
20:55:05 <Agentorange> trollface is from some kid at quakecon
20:55:07 <elliott> importance, who was the first to arrive at her reception. Anna Pavlovna
20:55:09 <elliott> had had a cough for some days. She was, as she said, suffering from la
20:55:09 <Agentorange> :)
20:55:11 <elliott> grippe; grippe being then a new word in St. Petersburg, used only by the
20:55:13 <elliott> elite.
20:55:15 <elliott> All her invitations without exception, written in French, and delivered
20:55:17 <elliott> by a scarlet-liveried footman that morning, ran as follows:
20:55:19 <elliott> "If you have nothing better to do, Count (or Prince), and if the
20:55:22 <elliott> prospect of spending an evening with a poor invalid is not too terrible,
20:55:23 <elliott> I shall be very charmed to see you tonight between 7 and 10--Annette
20:55:25 <elliott> Scherer."
20:55:27 <elliott> "Heavens! what a virulent attack!" replied the prince, not in the
20:55:29 <elliott> least disconcerted by this reception. He had just entered, wearing an
20:55:31 <elliott> embroidered court uniform, knee breeches, and shoes, and had stars on
20:55:34 <elliott> his breast and a serene expression on his flat face. He spoke in that
20:55:35 <elliott> refined French in which our grandfathers not only spoke but thought, and
20:55:36 <Agentorange> You == [] told [] fuckin' told [x] Toldafuckin'saurus Wrecks
20:55:37 <elliott> with the gentle, patronizing intonation natural to a man of importance
20:55:39 <elliott> who had grown old in society and at court. He went up to Anna Pavlovna,
20:55:40 <Agentorange> :)
20:55:41 <elliott> kissed her hand, presenting to her his bald, scented, and shining head,
20:55:43 <elliott> and complacently seated himself on the sofa.
20:55:45 <elliott> "First of all, dear friend, tell me how you are. Set your friend's mind
20:55:47 <elliott> at rest," said he without altering his tone, beneath the politeness
20:55:49 <elliott> and aff
20:55:51 <elliott> ected sympathy of which indifference and even irony could be
20:55:53 <elliott> discerned.
20:55:55 <Gregor> WebPlat doesn't work in Safari :(
20:55:55 <elliott> "Can one be well while suffering morally? Can one be calm in times like
20:55:57 <elliott> these if one has any feeling?" said Anna Pavlovna. "You are staying the
20:55:59 <elliott> whole evening, I hope?"
20:56:01 <elliott> "And the fete at the English ambassador's? Today is Wednesday. I must
20:56:03 <elliott> put in an appearance there," said the prince. "My daughter is coming for
20:56:05 <elliott> me to take me there."
20:56:07 <elliott> "I thought today's fete had been canceled. I confess all these
20:56:09 <elliott> festivities and fireworks are becoming wearisome."
20:56:11 <elliott> "If they had known that you wished it, the entertainment would have been
20:56:13 <elliott> put off," said the prince, who, like a wound-up clock, by force of habit
20:56:15 <elliott> said things he did not even wish to be believed.
20:56:17 <elliott> "Don't tease! Well, and what has been decided about Novosiltsev's
20:56:19 <elliott> dispatch? You know everything."
20:56:22 <elliott> "What can one say about it?" replied the prince in a cold, listless
20:56:23 <elliott> tone. "What has been decided? They have decided that Buonaparte has
20:56:25 <elliott> burnt his boats, and I believe that we are ready to burn ours."
20:56:27 <elliott> Prince Vasili always spoke languidly, like an actor repeating a stale
20:56:29 <elliott> part. Anna Pavlovna Scherer on the contrary, despite her forty years,
20:56:31 <elliott> overflowed with animation and impulsiveness. To be an enthusiast had
20:56:33 <elliott> become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she did not
20:56:35 <elliott> feel like it, she became enthusiastic in order not to disappoint the
20:56:37 <elliott> expectations of those who knew her. The subdued smile which, though it
20:56:39 <elliott> did not suit her faded features, always played round her lips expressed,
20:56:41 <elliott> as in a spoiled child, a continual consciousness of her charming defect,
20:56:43 <elliott> which she neither wished, nor could, nor considered it necessary, to
20:56:45 <elliott> correct.
20:56:47 <elliott> Now it is comment time.
20:56:49 <elliott> pikhq: What are your thoughts on this opening?
20:56:51 <elliott> Gregor: Neither do zebras.
20:56:57 <Agentorange> continue faggot.
20:57:00 <Agentorange> That was interesting.
20:57:16 <pikhq> elliott: It's insufficiently Old English.
20:57:20 <pikhq> elliott: Do Beowulf.
20:57:23 <elliott> Gregor: In WebPlat, I'm totally thinkin': elements in the page just start moving around.
20:57:26 <Agentorange> That isn't old english.
20:57:37 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I'm thinking images smaller than the user become enemies.
20:57:37 <elliott> Gregor: You know that thing with Google?
20:57:41 <Agentorange> Go read "Julius Caesar" or any other Shakespeare epics.
20:57:42 <elliott> Gregor: Where all the things are effected by gravity?
20:57:56 <Gregor> elliott: Rightright.
20:57:57 <elliott> Gregor: And you can pick them up and stuff.
20:57:59 <elliott> And they tilt around.
20:58:04 <elliott> Gregor: Make that happen to random parts of the page.
20:58:08 <elliott> No need to make it image-specific or anything.
20:58:18 <elliott> Gregor: OOH maybe some platforms are creaky and tip when you stand on them
20:58:19 <elliott> So you fall off.
20:58:33 <Gregor> elliott: I kiiiiinda want to avoid randomness as much as possible, and tipping is browser-dependent >_>
20:58:51 <elliott> Gregor: Basically, you want to turn an awesome platformer idea into a boring treasure hunt game.
20:58:58 <Gregor> No, I don't.
20:59:04 <elliott> So do :P
20:59:05 <Gregor> That's just the only implementable thing :P
20:59:13 <elliott> Gregor: ESCAPE YOUR CONFINES
20:59:14 <Gregor> Making things attack you == good.
20:59:20 <Gregor> Making RANDOM things attack you == bad.
20:59:29 <elliott> Gregor hates nethack
21:00:07 <pikhq> Agentorange: Hwæt! Wē Gār‐Dena   in geār‐dagum / þēod‐cyninga   þrym gefrūnon, / hū þā æðelingas   ellen fremedon.
21:00:09 <Gregor> I do suck at NetHack :P
21:00:19 <Agentorange> Yeah man.
21:01:05 -!- boscop has joined.
21:01:11 <elliott> Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
21:01:11 <elliott> þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
21:01:11 <elliott> hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
21:01:11 <elliott> Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
21:01:11 <elliott> 5
21:01:12 <elliott> monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
21:01:14 <elliott> egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
21:01:16 <elliott> feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
21:01:18 <elliott> weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
21:01:20 <elliott> oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
21:01:22 <elliott> 10
21:01:24 <elliott> ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
21:01:26 <elliott> gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
21:01:28 <elliott> ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned,
21:01:30 <elliott> geong in geardum, þone god sende
21:01:32 <elliott> folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat
21:01:34 <elliott> 15
21:01:36 <elliott> þe hie ær drugon aldorlease
21:01:38 <elliott> lange hwile. Him þæs liffrea,
21:01:40 <elliott> wuldres wealdend, woroldare forgeaf;
21:01:42 <elliott> Beowulf wæs breme (blæd wide sprang),
21:01:44 <elliott> Scyldes eafera Scedelandum in.
21:01:46 <elliott> boscop is so confused right now.
21:04:38 <cpressey> < h0x5f3759df> PL/I guys here ? <-- WHY YES, I HAVE PROGRAMMED IN PL/I!
21:04:50 <Gregor> cpressey: That's some scary crap, man ...
21:05:37 <elliott> I'll scare your crap.
21:06:27 <elliott> Is there a way to disown a process in *nix such that it becomes parented by someone N steps up from you?
21:06:28 <elliott> That is:
21:06:34 <Gregor> Hmm, OK, it actually does work on Safari ... it just didn't the first time ... weird.
21:06:35 <elliott> You have foo with-parent bar with-parent quux.
21:06:35 <cpressey> < Agentorange> Theoretically, the greatest troll in the world could be someone who bangs his head on the keyboard repeatedly while pressing enter.
21:06:39 <cpressey> There's a theory?
21:06:41 <elliott> You want to start asdf and make quux the parent.
21:06:44 <elliott> But quux has parent fjgdfgdfgj.
21:06:49 <elliott> How can you achieve this?
21:07:06 <elliott> cpressey: NETBSD
21:07:10 <pikhq> Christine O'Donnell: a candidate for Congress that's too dumb to realise that seperation of church and state is, in fact, in the Constitution.
21:07:23 <cpressey> < pikhq> I do believe this has hit metatrolling.
21:07:27 <cpressey> I need to study this theory.
21:07:29 <pikhq> Namely, the First Amendment. When mentioned, she thought this was a joke.
21:08:38 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miwSljJAzqg She's apparently fundamentally a moron.
21:10:25 <cpressey> Perhaps she is trolling Congress. Oh, if only.
21:10:32 <elliott> pikhq: Do you use virtual desktops? :|
21:10:37 <pikhq> elliott: Yes.
21:10:41 <elliott> BAH
21:10:44 <elliott> Am I the only one
21:13:54 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:13:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
21:13:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:14:00 <cpressey> Does your nose run and your feet smell? You're built upside-down!
21:14:10 <elliott> cpressey: ...why did you say that.
21:14:22 <cpressey> elliott: I need reasons?
21:14:26 -!- tombom_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:14:36 -!- tombom has joined.
21:14:39 <cpressey> I was in an "extremely old joke" mood?
21:14:41 <pikhq> The only thing giving me hope in humanity is that Christine O'Donnel appears to have a similar chance to winning as my cat.
21:24:06 <elliott> pikhq: Got a copy of Grey Mist to hand?
21:24:40 <pikhq> elliott: Would you like sprunge or a torrent? :P
21:24:48 <elliott> pikhq: I... sprunge :P
21:25:20 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/XLdT
21:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, virtual desktops, do you want to know if I use them or not?
21:25:39 <elliott> no :P
21:25:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't
21:25:48 <elliott> huh
21:25:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I do have them enabled, but yeah I don't ever use them
21:26:01 <Vorpal> I never find them useful
21:26:44 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, actually, make that: once / year if also a blue moon.
21:27:02 <Vorpal> I think I used virtual desktops... twice in the past 3 years. and only for short periods of time
21:27:08 <cpressey> I use them constantly you don't care ok bye
21:27:09 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:27:26 <elliott> pikhq: Got the gtkrc? iirc it had some fix in it
21:27:32 <elliott> as well as the regular
21:27:33 <elliott> setting some directory
21:28:43 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, no idea what that fix was.
21:28:48 <pikhq> I certainly don't have it handy.
21:29:01 <elliott> pikhq: WHAT YOU MEAN YOU DON'T USE GREY MIST :P
21:29:16 <pikhq> elliott: No, I mean I've just got a literally ordinary .gtkrc-2.0
21:29:27 <elliott> pikhq: Seriously? What lines?
21:29:29 <pikhq> include "/home/pikhq/.themes/GreyMist/gtk-2.0/gtkrc"
21:29:32 <pikhq> include "/home/pikhq/.gtkrc.mine"
21:29:39 <pikhq> ~/.gtkrc.mine does not exist.
21:29:55 <Vorpal> :D
21:30:07 <elliott> Hmph.
21:30:10 <elliott> I'll have to find it in the logs sometime.
21:30:46 <Vorpal> elliott, want me to search?
21:31:04 <elliott> Sure :p
21:31:05 <elliott> *:P
21:31:15 <Vorpal> elliott, what should I search for, sql like syntax accepted
21:31:32 <elliott> Vorpal: %GreyMist% or %Grey Mist%
21:31:33 <elliott> I guess
21:31:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:31:50 <Vorpal> elliott, and will it contain an URL or such?
21:31:57 <elliott> Well, days will do fine.
21:32:00 <Vorpal> elliott, since you are looking for a fix
21:32:02 <elliott> Thanks.
21:32:20 <elliott> pikhq: Ooh, I forgot I did non-colour-related things to it.
21:32:23 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:32:31 <elliott> pikhq: (The menus have no outer margins, so it's more nicely tightly-packed.)
21:33:15 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/aebX
21:33:33 <elliott> 1773779 | 2010-08-30 02:25:03 | alise_ | | | 0 | gtk-theme-name="GreyMist"
21:33:38 <elliott> pikhq: That's it. Put that above the include line.
21:33:39 <Vorpal> elliott, timestamps are in UTC
21:33:42 -!- Agentorange has left (?).
21:33:43 <elliott> That will make Qt applications work.
21:34:08 <elliott> Probably it should be in the actual thing, but eh.
21:34:24 <Vorpal> elliott, report a bug then?
21:34:38 <elliott> In the actual GreyMist.
21:34:53 <Vorpal> elliott, yes against greymist, whoever maintains it
21:35:04 <elliott> Uhh... me.
21:35:06 <elliott> I wrote it.
21:35:11 <Vorpal> elliott, oh XD
21:35:19 <Vorpal> elliott, screenshot of it?
21:35:21 <pikhq> elliott: Qt applications actually work just fine here.
21:35:22 <elliott> Concept: Elliott Hird
21:35:22 <elliott> Design: Elliott Hird
21:35:27 <elliott> Palette: Elliott Hird
21:35:29 <elliott> Implementation: Elliott Hird
21:35:31 <elliott> Testing: Elliott Hird
21:35:37 <elliott> Vorpal: You know the Mist theme?
21:35:52 <Vorpal> elliott, the one that you refused to call boxy right?
21:35:58 <elliott> Yes.
21:36:03 <Vorpal> right, I know of it
21:36:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Everywhere where that's blue -- selections and in checkboxes and the like -- imagine grey. Also, imagine that the menus have no outer margins, just so that if you highlight the top menu element the selected shading goes all the way to the borders. (That's a minor space-saving and aesthetic detail.)
21:36:35 <pikhq> elliott: Shouldn't the theme name be in the GreyMist gtkrc?
21:36:39 <Gregor> Bleh, wish JS had an event that fired whenever an element moved or was resized.
21:36:40 <elliott> tl;dr it's mist for people who cannot stand even the slightest bit of FLASHY BLUE BLING
21:36:45 <elliott> pikhq: yeah, that's what I'm thinking
21:36:55 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, I definitely think I wouldn't like it.
21:37:22 <Vorpal> elliott, as for ~/.gtkrc-2.0, I don't seem to have that file
21:37:34 <elliott> pikhq: Come to think of it, certain interface elements could do with a slightly darker border. Or at least a larger one.
21:37:40 <elliott> pikhq: Sometimes selection boxes blend in a bit.
21:37:47 <pikhq> Okay, seems not. When I start a Qt app from the command line, I get:
21:37:51 <pikhq> QGtkStyle was unable to detect the current GTK+ theme.
21:37:54 <elliott> pikhq: Indeed.
21:38:02 <elliott> That is preventing Grey Mist awesomeness from permeating your Qtspace.
21:38:15 <elliott> (Qtspace: a realm where everyone is cute.)
21:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, err, why doesn't it just read the theme from gtk?
21:38:48 <elliott> Because it needs the name to find the gtkrc or whatever.
21:38:54 <Vorpal> mhm
21:38:58 <elliott> It should probably just parse the gtkrc directly, includes and all, but *eh*
21:39:04 <elliott> I should really specify the theme name anyway.
21:39:15 <cheater99> Gregor: ondrag??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
21:39:26 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm, LXDE appears to have one or two good components.
21:39:41 <elliott> pikhq: lxpanel is like fbpanel but with some bug-ish things tweaked and working in-program configuration.
21:39:58 <pikhq> elliott: It doesn't end up actually following the include. Just the actual gtkrc.
21:40:06 <pikhq> So ridiculous.
21:40:36 <elliott> brb
21:46:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:47:32 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: for logreading reference, the company wine/debian/ubuntu were referring to is Blizzard
21:47:35 <oerjan> ah.
21:47:58 * oerjan thinks grepping for his nick will be enough logreading today.
21:48:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:52:24 <Vorpal> elliott, where is that gtkrc file?
21:52:31 <Vorpal> elliott, "find ~ -name .gtkrc-2.0" returns nothing for me...
21:53:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, where were they referring to it?
21:55:52 <Vorpal> oh found it by fuzzy grepping
21:56:22 <oerjan> in our logs? i didn't manage to find it myself :D
21:56:34 <Vorpal> 2010-10-18 12:23:27 +0200 <ais523>hmm, amusing changelog entry (Ubuntu bumping the version of Wine): "Many more applications work, especially those from companies named after particularly cold weather events"
21:56:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, I presume it refers to that
21:56:45 <oerjan> right
21:57:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, did you ask about it, or was elliott just highlighting you at random?
21:57:58 <oerjan> well i did ask, but i _definitely_ cannot find that :D
21:58:36 * oerjan thought he used the verb "seconds"
21:58:59 <oerjan> or wait maybe that was for another question
21:59:03 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:59:22 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
21:59:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, you mean I didn't find the original statement it referred to!?
22:00:00 <Vorpal> that seems highly unlikely
22:00:09 <Vorpal> that something else could fit I mean
22:00:31 <oerjan> you did. but neither you nor i found where i asked about it.
22:00:54 <oerjan> also, the "seconds" may have been a completely different matter.
22:01:38 <Vorpal> meh, not interested enough to grep further
22:01:46 <oerjan> i thought i was seconding a question by cheater at some point...
22:02:10 <oerjan> it is of course not _entirely_ unknown for the logs to contain gaps these days :D
22:02:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, you did second him
22:02:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, also I'm using personal logs here
22:02:58 <Vorpal> 2010-10-18 14:18:24 +0200 <oerjan><cheater> ais523: what does that mean?
22:02:58 <Vorpal> 2010-10-18 14:18:56 +0200 <oerjan>i second that question.
22:03:08 <oerjan> ...right.
22:03:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, and indeed it was soon after what ais said
22:03:34 <Vorpal> oerjan, mystery solved. But is it not in clog logs?
22:03:50 <Vorpal> if so yeargh, need to work on that log merging script, which is near impossible
22:03:59 <oerjan> 05:10:22 --- join: oerjan (oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric
22:04:00 <oerjan> 05:18:47 <oerjan> * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
22:04:11 <oerjan> i think it should have been _between those two
22:04:22 <oerjan> *_between_
22:04:41 <Vorpal> 2010-10-19 23:03:35 +0200 <oerjan>05:18:47 <oerjan> * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
22:04:52 <Vorpal> and
22:04:54 <Vorpal> 2010-10-18 13:58:28 +0200 +oerjan (oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no) has joined #esoteric
22:05:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, you have broken timestamps above then
22:05:13 <oerjan> erm
22:05:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, I mean, completely different days!
22:05:33 <oerjan> those are clog timestamps, i _thought_ those were 9 hours different
22:05:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, look at the relative difference between:
22:05:47 <Vorpal> <oerjan> 05:10:22 --- join: oerjan (oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric
22:05:47 <Vorpal> <oerjan> 05:18:47 <oerjan> * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
22:05:48 <Vorpal> and:
22:05:51 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> 2010-10-18 13:58:28 +0200 + oerjan (oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no) has joined #esoteric
22:05:54 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> 2010-10-19 23:03:35 +0200 <oerjan> 05:18:47 <oerjan> * catseye has not the number of faces nor the number of palms sufficient for this situation
22:06:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, see, that doesn't match at all
22:06:06 <oerjan> oh duh
22:06:16 <oerjan> i didn't check the date :D
22:06:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, and even without date it doesn't match
22:07:36 -!- augur has joined.
22:09:11 <oerjan> Vorpal: um i tell you clogs timezone is 9 hours different from ours
22:09:14 <oerjan> *clog's
22:09:24 <oerjan> in fact i _did_ find it on the correct date
22:09:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes but that wasn't what I said
22:09:34 <oerjan> 05:18:49 <oerjan> <cheater> ais523: what does that mean?
22:09:34 <oerjan> 05:19:20 <oerjan> i second that question.
22:10:06 <Vorpal> 05:18:47-05:10:22 << (2010-10-19 23:03:35)- (2010-10-18 13:58:28)
22:10:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, that is what I'm saying
22:10:17 <Vorpal> and
22:10:22 <oerjan> my error was thinking it was a /me, and therefore searching for "seconds" instead of "second"
22:10:37 <Vorpal> 05:18:47-05:10:22 << (23:03:35)- (13:58:28) also holds true
22:18:39 <oerjan> Vorpal: the 23:03:35 is from _just now_, i fail to see how it is relevant to anything
22:19:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh, right
22:19:02 <Vorpal> XD
22:19:07 <Vorpal> oh well
22:19:15 <Vorpal> I'm tired, it shows.
22:19:17 <Vorpal> night →
22:23:14 -!- wareya_ has joined.
22:24:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:24:17 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:28:24 <elliott> <Vorpal> oerjan, and indeed it was soon after what ais said
22:28:25 <elliott> it is
22:28:59 <elliott> Why don't calculators support adding time?
22:29:07 <elliott> I suck at doing base 60 addition in my head.
22:29:11 <elliott> Well some do.
22:29:18 <elliott> But nothing as convenient as "3:43 + 14:34".
22:29:58 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/Tt2qr.png WARNING: This route crosses through France.
22:30:49 <olsner> haha, it's a PNG, that's why it can't zoom and pan the map
22:31:04 <elliott> ...xD
22:32:10 * oerjan wonders why it drives to barcelona and then retraces its steps for a while
22:32:28 * elliott wonders if everyone has missed the joke or is deliberately ignoring it
22:33:01 <oerjan> hm i guess the stops were explicitly asked
22:33:06 <oerjan> *for
22:33:42 <elliott> "That's actually a pretty safe assumption at any time IMO. I'm willing to bet you have a greater than 50% chance of having some sort of strike or protest significantly impede your progress through France at any given time."
22:33:50 <elliott> Apparently "It generally has to do with passing through a country that you don't stop in to get to a destination on the other side." in actuality
22:34:12 <oerjan> except in this case it _does_ stop in paris
22:36:48 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but it goes through france twice
22:36:51 <oerjan> hm maybe it's the stretch from Monaco to Venice which triggers it
22:36:52 <elliott> and the one it warns about is one not asked for
22:36:55 <oerjan> thrice actually
22:37:10 <elliott> indeed it is
22:38:09 <oerjan> and i guess the multiple countries are for the stretch from Venice to Belgrade
22:39:05 <oerjan> passing through both Slovenia and Croatia
22:44:23 <Gregor> Marco!
22:44:34 <elliott> apfpf
22:44:57 <Gregor> Fish out of water!
22:48:21 <elliott> What's the trick to make non-xft programs work with xft again?
22:48:23 <elliott> The sorta-hacky way.
22:48:25 <elliott> xft:Sans-10?
22:49:15 <pikhq> Sounds right.
22:49:43 <elliott> pikhq: It doesn't seem to work.
22:49:46 <elliott> I have
22:49:49 <elliott> lwm.titlefont: xft:Sans
22:49:54 <elliott> and it just... displays as the default font.
22:50:07 <pikhq> :/
22:50:21 <elliott> pikhq: I guess the program has to have actual xft code, huh.
22:52:13 <elliott> pikhq: It is looking more and more like LeanDE will have to have its own WM.
22:54:56 <elliott> pikhq: Which is... not good.
22:55:11 <elliott> Huh, wait.
22:55:14 <elliott> It's ignoring my settings entirely.
22:55:46 <elliott> pikhq: ARGH stupid piece of shit typo in the manpage had me setting the wrong resource.
22:55:56 <elliott> Stab urge maximal.
22:57:58 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, uh... give me one reason not to write LeanWM.
22:58:05 <elliott> Being "lwm without the old cruft".
22:58:06 <oerjan> stabat mater dolorosa
23:03:19 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:03:31 <elliott> http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/cannam/codec.html i like the look of this
23:08:19 <elliott> has anyone here used nextstep / windowmaker?
23:09:10 <pikhq> elliott: You won't finish it.
23:09:25 <elliott> pikhq: Well, I will; the desire to create Kitten is pretty unstoppable now.
23:09:37 <elliott> pikhq: Writing a window manager isn't exactly what I'd call "difficult".
23:14:25 <elliott> catseye: you there? can i blab random ui thoughts? >_>
23:19:22 <Gregor> I just made an ENORMOUS improvement to WebPlat!
23:19:26 <Gregor> The runner is now me :P
23:26:09 <elliott> Gregor: Oh joy.
23:26:17 <elliott> Gregor: Please, please give a textbox with the bookmarklet in.
23:26:18 <elliott> Srsly.
23:26:21 <elliott> I cannot view source any more.
23:26:29 <Gregor> The bookmarklet doesn't change every time.
23:26:40 <Gregor> It only changed the once for jQuery.
23:28:27 <elliott> Gregor: BAH
23:28:32 <elliott> Gregor: Link me up :P
23:28:55 <Gregor> http://codu.org/webplat/
23:29:43 <elliott> Gregor: You brokered reddit again.
23:29:52 <elliott> I start on the right margin of the page, held on by an iframe.
23:30:00 <Gregor> E_WORKSFORME
23:30:00 <elliott> Gregor: Because of an opera advert, apparently.
23:30:10 <Gregor> Hm, I should try it without ABP :P
23:30:26 <Gregor> E_WORKSFORME
23:31:01 <Gregor> E_NO
23:31:11 <Gregor> Oh, yes
23:31:13 <Gregor> There 'tis.
23:31:27 <Gregor> I can even walk on it.
23:31:33 <elliott> Gregor: You don't start on the right of it?
23:31:34 <elliott> Okay...
23:31:46 <Gregor> Browser?
23:31:48 <elliott> Gregor: The player looks like MJ in Moonwalker.
23:31:50 <elliott> Chrome.
23:31:55 <Gregor> HEY
23:31:56 <Gregor> >_<
23:32:04 -!- cpressey has joined.
23:32:26 <Gregor> elliott: E_WORKSFORME in Chrom(ium) too.
23:32:35 <elliott> Gregor: E_NOTFORME
23:32:42 <elliott> <Gregor> HEY
23:32:43 <elliott> <Gregor> >_<
23:32:45 <oerjan> E_ISANICELETTER
23:32:46 <elliott> You didn't even draw it, id you? :P
23:32:59 <Gregor> elliott: I just added the hat and tie.
23:33:15 <elliott> oerjan: It's an ice letter?
23:33:18 <elliott> Gregor: I'm talking about the way it walks.
23:33:22 <elliott> (Yes, "it")
23:33:29 <Gregor> Ahhhh
23:33:36 <Gregor> I'm power-jogging damn it!
23:33:46 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:34:01 <elliott> javascript:(function(){var%20script=document.createElement('script');script.src='http://codu.org/webplat/jquery.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);script=document.createElement('script');script.src='http://codu.org/webplat/webplat.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);})()
23:34:43 <oerjan> EIN EISBUCHSTAV
23:34:50 <oerjan> *EIN EISBUCHSTABE
23:34:59 <elliott> Gregor: I am totally doing this on codu.
23:35:27 <Gregor> You do not :P
23:35:38 <Gregor> I can't even handle previously-invisible elements becoming new platforms.
23:35:44 <Gregor> Since the DOM doesn't give me anything useful for that.
23:35:52 <elliott> I just fell down a screen of your hats.
23:35:54 <elliott> Surreal.
23:36:05 <oerjan> The Runner of DOM
23:36:12 <elliott> Gregor: It phalluses^Wfails at http://choosemyhat.com/.
23:36:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:36:15 <elliott> The wrapper div or whatever.
23:36:26 <elliott> Also, who the hell actually votes on that?
23:36:31 <Gregor> I have no idea :P
23:38:16 <oerjan> while investigating this question i found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mid-Importance_Hat_Fetishism_articles
23:38:39 <elliott> "We bought this ad.
23:38:41 <elliott> www.opera.com"
23:38:42 <elliott> Yes. Yes you did.
23:39:11 <fizzie> "Categories: B-Class Hat Fetishism articles | Mid-Importance Hat Fetishism articles | Start-Class Republicans Named John articles | High-Importance Republicans Named John articles"
23:39:55 <elliott> fizzie: Please, please, please tell me that's real.
23:40:33 <elliott> It is!
23:40:55 <oerjan> well the page is, not so much the categories :D
23:41:37 <fizzie> Someone's user-page, also, so it's only arguably real.
23:43:53 <elliott> pikhq: Can I blab my current ideas for WMery?
23:46:25 <cpressey> whee maverick@work
23:47:52 <elliott> cpressey: Or to you? :P
23:48:52 <elliott> cpressey: YOU CANNOT FIGHT DESTINY
23:49:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:49:27 <cpressey> elliott: you can start by telling me what it is OH HI Mathnerd314
23:49:41 <elliott> cpressey: WM-ery.
23:49:43 <elliott> The eryness of WMs.
23:49:56 <cpressey> is it a WM?
23:50:03 <elliott> cpressey: i.e. what will probably be in LeanDE which will be the main-supported-ish GUI for Kitten
23:50:06 <cpressey> a HYPERWM?
23:50:07 <elliott> cpressey: Yes. Yes it is.
23:50:10 <elliott> WMery isn't its name.
23:50:20 <elliott> Its name is probably LeanWM because I'm an uncreative bastard.
23:50:23 <elliott> (Well I am but.)
23:50:28 <elliott> *amn't
23:50:51 <Sgeo> Christine O'Donnell is a moron
23:51:12 <elliott> ORLY
23:51:20 <elliott> Sgeo: I think she's been grossly misrepresented.
23:51:24 <elliott> People are blowing the whole witch thing OUT OF PROPORTION.
23:51:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:51:29 <elliott> What matters is her policies.
23:51:33 <elliott> I think
23:51:39 <elliott> that the US needs some conservatism
23:51:45 <elliott> after the disaster that the Obama administration has been.
23:51:50 <Mathnerd314> cpressey: umm... hi
23:51:52 * Sgeo doesn't give a fuck about whether or not she's a wiitch
23:52:03 <elliott> Wiiiiiiiiiiiitch
23:52:04 <Sgeo> Or even a witch
23:52:32 <cpressey> insert nintendo pun here
23:52:41 <Sgeo> It would be almost better if she were. Maybe she'd have a slight nugget of a hint of the importance of the First Amendment
23:53:04 <elliott> Sgeo: Nobody is proposing to illegalise other religions. Even if you are a witch.
23:53:23 <elliott> The Christian sociocultural context which the US exists entirely within is already strong; making it stronger is just an acceptance of identity.
23:54:13 <elliott> Sgeo: Do you have any criticisms of her actual policies?
23:54:32 * oerjan recalls a story from some years back just before halloween pointing out that in the UK while they had repealed laws against _being_ a witch, it was still illegal to dress up as one
23:55:02 * Sgeo decides to look on her website
23:56:12 <oerjan> well norway is enlightened as usual, as our royal princess was recently accused of being a witch.
23:56:35 <oerjan> (she's way into talking with angels and stuff)
23:57:29 <Sgeo> "Strongly believes in protecting the sanctity of life at ALL stages." I ... sympathize with the pro-life stance, but am scared of women hurting themselves with illegal abortions
23:57:50 <elliott> ...okay, I'm dropping out of my bullshit confuse-Sgeo character now
23:57:52 <elliott> because
23:58:04 <elliott> Sgeo: how on *earth* do you sympathise with the utterly unscientific pro-life religious nutjob stance?
23:58:23 <elliott> you do realise that the US is basically singular in considering it even remotely serious?
23:58:38 <elliott> apart from bass-ackwards religious countries
23:59:12 <oerjan> elliott: i was about to declare poe's law on you a bit ago, then thought "nah, no way _he_ is serious about meaning that"
23:59:17 <Sgeo> Even though the fetus isn't a person, it has a very good chance of becoming a person if not interfered with
23:59:33 <elliott> oerjan: i do find it interesting that Sgeo had no idea what her policies were though :)
23:59:38 <Gregor> Sgeo: So does sperm.
23:59:39 <elliott> Sgeo: interestingly enough, so do stars.
23:59:43 <Gregor> (Given proper conditions)
23:59:50 <elliott> Both masturbation and staricide are immoral!
23:59:59 <cpressey> So do infants, one could argue
←2010-10-18 2010-10-19 2010-10-20→ ↑2010 ↑all