←2010-10-19 2010-10-20 2010-10-21→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:14 <cpressey> brb
00:00:15 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:00:52 <Gregor> I'm thinkin' abortion should be legal up to the age of 2.
00:01:04 -!- cpressey has joined.
00:01:38 <oerjan> <elliott> apart from bass-ackwards religious countries <-- you do realize that by your probably strict standards that is the _majority_ of countries, right? :D
00:01:49 <Sgeo> What is the distinction between pre-birth abortion and post-birth abortion. I can see making a distinction in the womb, at some point in the brain's development.
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00:02:09 <elliott> oerjan: well.
00:02:10 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
00:02:18 <elliott> oerjan: sure, but not the majority of Western civilisations
00:02:18 <cpressey_> ok better
00:02:29 <elliott> by which i also basically include Japan, S. Korea and stuff :P
00:02:42 -!- cpressey_ has changed nick to cpressey.
00:02:43 <elliott> oerjan: also most of those countries are small and have little power.
00:03:00 <elliott> oerjan: i mean, i can't imagine any country in the EU taking pro-life seriously.
00:03:07 <oerjan> ireland.
00:03:20 <oerjan> poland, possibly
00:03:21 <cpressey> is the vatican in the eu?
00:03:25 <Gregor> Gotta birth 'em to eat 'em.
00:03:25 <Gregor> cpressey: No.
00:03:37 <oerjan> no, but several catholic countries are
00:03:50 <oerjan> (including the two i mentioned)
00:04:00 <cpressey> trees have personhood
00:04:15 <cpressey> paper is murder!
00:04:33 <Gregor> Not only that, but trees are your cousins. Paper is killing your family.
00:04:41 <oerjan> ireland still has prohibition against abortion _in the constitution_, afair.
00:05:13 <elliott> ok ireland, but ireland are fucking crazy :D
00:05:33 <Gregor> Yeah, who doesn't want to be part of the UK?
00:05:33 <elliott> anyway what i'm saying is that you should think very hard before considering the pro-life position reasonable if you're in the US.
00:05:41 <elliott> Gregor: I KNOW RIGHT
00:06:02 <Gregor> I formed the Reformed Tory Party of the United States just to encourage us to rejoin the UK!
00:06:16 <elliott> Gregor: I approve so hard.
00:06:28 <Gregor> lol
00:07:39 <elliott> OBAMEMPIRE
00:07:41 <elliott> OBAMPIRE
00:07:44 <elliott> OPIRE
00:07:50 <elliott> The Republick of Opire
00:08:27 <oerjan> <elliott> ok ireland, but ireland are fucking crazy :D <-- you're going to end up with No True Scotsman pretty soon :D
00:08:36 <elliott> oerjan: yes well
00:08:59 <elliott> i really meant "look at any country with a political climate you consider relatively sane, note how pro-life isn't taken seriously there, rinse, lather, repeat, consider biases introduced by own cultural setting"
00:09:12 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:13:40 <pikhq> oerjan: The "pro-lifers" *here* are a bit nuts. I can't make a judgement about those elsewhere.
00:14:08 <pikhq> But here, they simultaneously are opposed to abortion and in favor of the death sentence.
00:14:48 <Gregor> You have to give people a chance to /earn/ their death.
00:15:22 <pikhq> elliott: For what it's worth: I see some issues with abortion, but see *significantly more* issues with them not being legal.
00:15:45 <elliott> Proper birth control should of course be heavily promoted.
00:15:50 <elliott> pikhq: Out of curiosity, what issues do you see with abortion?
00:16:04 <elliott> I understand it's not a particularly pleasant experience and one that should be avoided if possible, but apart from that...
00:16:06 <oerjan> "Currently, Polish society is one of the most pro-life in Europe."
00:16:20 <elliott> oerjan: not even polse consider Polish society sane :)
00:16:22 <elliott> *poles
00:16:24 <elliott> *politics, whatever
00:16:36 <Gregor> In undergrad (?) at some point a class (?) we watched some movie (?) about an abortion clinic before it was legal ...
00:16:42 <Gregor> That movie made me want to end female suffrage :P
00:17:02 <Gregor> I think ... I THINK that it was supposed to be pro-choice.
00:17:04 <pikhq> Rather dangerous, unpleasant, and it goes from not a big deal ethically to "what the *fuck*?" depending on the stage of pregnancy.
00:17:56 <pikhq> But straight-up banning it creates even more issues and solves nothing.
00:17:57 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah. I think the dangerous thing is basically personal choice, unpleasantry is... well, that or pregnancy. And yeah, there is always the debate about when it becomes able to feel pain.
00:18:24 <Gregor> "Feels pain" is a silly border anyway. Cows feel pain.
00:18:30 <Gregor> But they're sooooooo tasty.
00:18:46 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and if a pregnancy would ever result in a mother's death, I think it's a very grey area even in the later stages of pregnancy.
00:18:53 <oerjan> apparently the actual polish laws were made considerably stricter after the fall of communism.
00:19:01 <elliott> I mean -- would you save a person or a kitten?
00:19:07 <elliott> Substitute increasingly more intelligent animals for kitten, etc.
00:19:17 <pikhq> Personally, I feel the only way to "solve" it is, of course, to make it very unlikely that anybody would be in the position where an abortion would be an option they have to consider...
00:19:31 <pikhq> elliott: *Obviously* if it's a choice between infant and mother then fuck the infant.
00:19:34 <elliott> ITT: Birth control.
00:19:52 <elliott> pikhq: Right. Now suppose the mother is ridiculously old. (Her pregnancy defies science.)
00:20:01 <elliott> Babby or dying?
00:20:08 <pikhq> Birth control, reducing poverty, making giving a child up to adoption *incredibly easy*, etc.
00:20:16 <pikhq> elliott: HARD ISSUE.
00:20:30 <pikhq> elliott: But I'm leaning towards babby.
00:20:40 <elliott> pikhq: Conclusion: Fuck old people, they're not allowed to get pregnant until we solve mortality :P
00:20:41 <Gregor> How many mother-years = one baby-year? :P
00:20:45 <elliott> It's too difficult
00:20:49 <pikhq> elliott: Hah.
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00:21:21 <oerjan> elliott: once we solve mortality, _no one_ will be allowed to get pregnant.
00:21:35 <elliott> oerjan: well until we solve scarcity.
00:21:38 <oerjan> "sorry, planet is full"
00:21:42 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, and also: I am quite against the death sentence. Unlike pro-lifers, who are pro-death in that case. :P
00:21:52 <oerjan> "sorry, galaxy is full". etc.
00:21:59 <elliott> oerjan: and solving mortality is so damn *hard* that it is incredibly likely scarcity will be solved something like hours afterwards.
00:22:08 <pikhq> oerjan: That's why we spawn universes.
00:22:17 <elliott> because i'm not exactly sure we humans can keep up with the universe trying to fuck with our lives :)
00:22:27 <pikhq> elliott: Entropy's a bitch.
00:22:36 <elliott> pikhq: entropy isn't remotely the problem
00:22:38 <oerjan> pikhq: "out of memory, simulation aborted"
00:22:44 <pikhq> oerjan: :P
00:22:46 <elliott> pikhq: consider a carefully-maintained computer made out of the most durable components
00:22:52 <elliott> forget expense
00:23:09 <elliott> pikhq: now build in some self-repairing capabilities. already it'll last *way* longer than our wetware.
00:23:23 <elliott> of course entropy is something we kinda have to solve
00:23:26 * Sgeo ponders trying Opera [again]
00:23:27 <pikhq> elliott: Sorry, entropy is guaranteed. And if we're talking about lasting infinitely long, it *will* become a problem.
00:23:30 <elliott> but we sort of have quite a few billion years to deal with that.
00:23:34 * Sgeo forgot why he ran from Opera last time
00:23:36 <elliott> pikhq: yes... but let's solve this one fisrt
00:23:37 <elliott> *first
00:23:49 <elliott> pikhq: methinks the many-more-times intelligent us may be somewhat better at solving entropy.
00:24:26 <pikhq> Okay, so we're not so much talking about *solving* mortality as we are about making life less short.
00:24:35 <pikhq> And with any luck, making it less brutish in the deal.
00:24:45 <elliott> pikhq: if we're talking about entropy, well
00:24:52 <elliott> ehh
00:25:11 <elliott> pikhq: i'd consider "until entropy fucks us in the ass" a 99.999% solution to mortality in the short term.
00:25:20 <oerjan> short and brutish, what was the third one
00:26:20 <pikhq> elliott: Fair enough.
00:26:32 <pikhq> elliott: Gives us several billion years, at least.
00:26:38 <elliott> pikhq: what is rather more worrying is the possible finiteness of space.
00:26:52 <elliott> thus, finite possible configurations
00:27:00 <oerjan> nasty was it
00:27:02 <elliott> thus, a real, actual, unsolvable maximum lifespan
00:27:21 <elliott> pikhq: because ofc it must at one point repeat a state.
00:28:08 <pikhq> elliott: At best, we'll end up having Groundhog Day. At worst, well. Big Crunch?
00:28:28 <elliott> pikhq: groundhog day is so not a utopia.
00:28:38 <pikhq> elliott: No shit.
00:28:49 <oerjan> well Groundhog eon. if it can happen we're probably already in it.
00:28:52 <elliott> pikhq: i also have serious problems with the typical naive idea of post-singularity life (see e.g. Prime Intellect, which is definitely a dystopia)
00:28:58 <oerjan> (had that idea years ago)
00:29:04 <pikhq> elliott: Anyways, as far as we know, the universe is expanding at an increasing rate.
00:29:07 <elliott> and it scares me way more than a little bit that Sgeo considers Prime Intellect's future to be a utopia...
00:29:17 <elliott> pikhq: as far as we know, everything is *moving apart* at an increasing rate
00:29:26 <elliott> which doesn't really help us as far as space goes, eh?
00:29:31 <pikhq> elliott: And, yeah, the problem with the singularity is that after it humans are *still fucking human*.
00:29:54 <elliott> pikhq: I was thinking more the absolute lack and irrelevance of personal development and achievement.
00:30:15 <pikhq> Also true. But we're still assholes.
00:30:55 <oerjan> pikhq: there is the possibility that some asocial tendencies are curable
00:31:43 <elliott> pikhq: in fact i think that as far as my limited human mind can estimate -- which is *not at all* -- the perfect singularity outcome in the short term would just be that it stops you *majorly* and irreversibly hurting people.
00:31:54 <oerjan> especially if you can redesign humans
00:32:02 <elliott> i.e. you can't stab someone to death.
00:33:54 * oerjan again considers the possibility that we are already in a post-singularity environment
00:34:26 <elliott> oerjan: see The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect (I will say no more)
00:36:55 <oerjan> i mean, if this world is actually some transcended being's idea of a _solution_ to "the absolute lack and irrelevance of personal development and achievement" you mentioned.
00:37:01 <oerjan> *beings'
00:37:16 <elliott> oerjan: mmhmm. See The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect.
00:37:24 * oerjan is still rooting against solipsism :/
00:37:43 <oerjan> I CANNOT HEAR YOU LALALALA
00:38:23 <elliott> oerjan: it totally is relevant, if you can get past the zombie rape in the first chapter :P
00:38:31 <Sgeo> It's not rape!
00:38:43 <elliott> Thank you, Sgeo, for pointing out the obvious.
00:38:55 <oerjan> alas i'm suffering from sever tl;dr syndrome these days.
00:38:58 <elliott> The act as a whole is consented to. The torture within is very much *not* consented to at the time it is being done, even though it was agreed to beforehand.
00:38:59 <oerjan> *severe
00:39:03 <elliott> It is very borderline.
00:39:05 <elliott> Desired rape, almost.
00:39:17 <elliott> oerjan: when was the last time you read a novel? :p
00:39:33 <pikhq> elliott: I'm going to call it "very hard-core BDSM play".
00:39:40 <pikhq> "Also zombies."
00:39:52 <elliott> pikhq: In which pikhq stretches the power of the word "very" to its absolute limits.
00:40:04 <pikhq> elliott: :)
00:40:39 <oerjan> i don't quite recall. hm do the ed stories count?
00:40:54 <elliott> pikhq: I think tvivat fbzrbar gur rdhvinyrag bs urebva nqqvpgvba ohg sbe *gurve bja oybbq*, chzcvat gurz jvgu fgrebvqf naq gura yrggvat mbzovr rwnphyngr fgneg gb *rng njnl ng gurve obql* is pretty much rape. Even if it was consented to beforehand :P
00:41:00 <elliott> oerjan: yes. that's a novel.
00:41:10 <oerjan> then that may be it.
00:41:38 <elliott> oerjan: well, think of it as Prime Intellect Stories!
00:41:42 <elliott> the whole thing's ONE BIG PLOT ARC.
00:41:44 <pikhq> elliott: Good use of rot13.
00:42:00 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, now the only force stopping oerjan instinctively decoding it is laziness.
00:42:35 <oerjan> well i think squeamishness plays a part too.
00:42:50 <pikhq> elliott: With full consent, it's *probably* not rape.
00:42:56 <pikhq> elliott: Just insanely freaky.
00:42:59 <elliott> pikhq: ask that to Caroline-at-the-time :)
00:43:10 <elliott> if she can respond, which is doubtful
00:43:26 <elliott> oerjan: it is not actually written in a squeamish manner, it's a very unfetishy, dry portrayal of... well, *that*.
00:43:34 <elliott> it has character relevance though!
00:49:29 <elliott> The paramount of insane minimalism: http://cultofless.com/items
00:49:43 <elliott> Note that that is actually much longer than the list of things that person actually owns.
00:49:48 <elliott> Note the "sold" and "sell" columns.
00:50:00 <elliott> "Bic Ballpoint $0 sold!"
00:50:10 <elliott> You sold your Bic Ballpoint pen. Congratulations, your life is so much fucking better.
00:50:11 <elliott> Moron.
00:50:20 <elliott> "Digg Bottle Opener $5 keep!"
00:50:20 <elliott> ...
00:51:59 -!- evincar has joined.
00:52:22 <evincar> I am returned.
00:52:32 <elliott> Guys, I think evincar goes to RIT.
00:52:41 <evincar> He sure does.
00:52:50 <elliott> I totally found this out by stalking him IRL.
00:53:11 <evincar> Or by looking at my connect/disconnect message?
00:53:23 <elliott> Well, your join message. Or that.
00:53:26 <elliott> :P
00:53:37 <evincar> Yop.
00:54:07 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:54:35 <evincar> My online identity is pretty closely tied to my real one.
00:54:46 -!- catseye has joined.
00:54:56 <elliott> Mine is only in name. Well, there is some outdated personal info somewhere but I think that's disappeared by now.
00:54:59 <oerjan> they were both kidnapped by a madman
00:55:05 <elliott> I would like a greater distance, or perhaps less.
00:55:10 <elliott> Half-lifes are not for me.
00:55:18 <elliott> Hi catseye.
00:55:26 <elliott> pikhq: catseye: Clearly you both want to know about the perfect WM design ever.
00:55:29 <elliott> Well.
00:55:31 <elliott> Second-perfect!
00:55:49 <evincar> Shoot.
00:55:56 <oerjan> *BANG*
00:56:13 <catseye> * oerjan again considers the possibility that we are already in a post-singularity environment
00:56:17 <catseye> whatever that even means
00:56:23 <elliott> evincar: But... but you're not in the Initiated Circle of Elliott's Environment Devotees.
00:56:36 <catseye> elliott: thanks, but i already have my own ideas
00:56:45 <elliott> catseye: BUT MINE ARE BETTER
00:56:53 <elliott> catseye: And you will see that when you use Kitten
00:57:04 <elliott> Admittedly I have few ideas, but.
00:59:40 <catseye> hybrid windows and tiles. multiselect windows, select how they should tile together, and you can treat that as a single window. also, a tile can contain windows.
01:00:04 <catseye> the last part is mainly to support having multiple virtual workspaces in a tile
01:00:18 <elliott> catseye: well that's quite close to some of my ideas for my *perfect* WM
01:00:21 <elliott> but perfect-but-onec
01:00:26 <elliott> catseye: you know how you wanted infinite virtual desktops?
01:00:51 <catseye> not infinite, just a lot -- and more important to make them easy to navigate (hard problem though, at least for me)
01:01:01 <elliott> catseye: well my idea makes it infinite coolely
01:01:14 <elliott> catseye: imagine a regular desktop and your taskbar below or whatever
01:01:28 <elliott> but with no window entries, maybe
01:01:43 <elliott> catseye: now imagine you can modifier key + scroll down to *zoom out* of this desktop
01:01:52 <elliott> then, you can move your mouse around to traverse an infinite space
01:01:57 <elliott> catseye: and see the windows zoomed out
01:01:57 <catseye> ah, a ZUI?
01:02:03 <elliott> click anywhere (there's a rectangle showing what this will zoom into)
01:02:05 <elliott> and it goes back to 1:1
01:02:06 <elliott> catseye: sort of
01:02:12 <elliott> except zoomed-out is a distinct mode from zoomed-in
01:02:29 <catseye> sort of a levelled-ZUI instead of continuous-
01:02:31 <elliott> catseye: oh, and there's a key combo like OS X Expose or whatever, that just shows all the windows you have in total tiled
01:02:40 <elliott> catseye: yes; you can still zoom out further though
01:02:44 <elliott> for when you have 1,000 windows open :)
01:02:47 <elliott> <elliott> catseye: oh, and there's a key combo like OS X Expose or whatever, that just shows all the windows you have in total tiled
01:02:49 <elliott> and lets you select ofc
01:02:51 <elliott> which zooms in on the right place
01:02:54 <elliott> that's just an idea
01:02:56 <elliott> i think it could work
01:03:03 <elliott> oh, and you could zoom out while dragging a window obviously
01:03:18 <catseye> zooming out would be one way to navigate the whole virtual thing, i haven't thought about it
01:03:59 <catseye> i mainly want the tiles so that some windows can stick around always, sanely (chat windows)
01:04:23 <catseye> they could live in a smallish tile on the bottom, while everything else pans and zooms
01:04:29 <elliott> catseye: anyway, my perfect-but-one-or-two design is basically just a refinement of the current crop of minimalist floating WMs :P
01:04:42 <elliott> i think i might want window controls on the side
01:04:46 <elliott> because of widescreens
01:05:03 <elliott> also, obvious stuff like "of course the close button goes *opposite* the iconify/maximise buttons, so you don't have to worry about misclicks"
01:05:14 <elliott> probably ditch window titles, don't need them
01:06:26 <elliott> catseye: did you ever use wm2?
01:06:36 <elliott> it's a curious little old WM.
01:06:38 <catseye> ctrl+mumble+right click could pop up a "control panel" for the focused window, which shows its title, close/min/max/etc gadgets, etc
01:06:47 <catseye> elliott: no, i haven'y
01:06:50 <catseye> *'t
01:06:55 <elliott> meh, i'll probably have some sort of window border at all times
01:07:05 <elliott> just a little grey slab to the left or right
01:07:18 <elliott> close on the top, iconify/maximise on the bottom
01:07:31 <elliott> definitely alt+right click to resize though
01:07:36 <elliott> it's horrific that that isn't in many existing WMs :)
01:07:56 <elliott> catseye: http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/wm2/wm2-pic.gif
01:08:00 <elliott> note zany floating window decorations
01:08:31 <elliott> it's notable, though, for being perhaps the only piece of software designed for minimalist usability in those days
01:08:31 <Sgeo> Mac!
01:08:38 <elliott> Sgeo: that has nothing to do with macs at all?
01:08:45 <Sgeo> </not-serious>
01:08:53 <elliott> no seriously explain.
01:09:09 <Sgeo> Although the ... title stripes look vaguely old mac like
01:09:22 <elliott> ...yeah, they're grey and have a square.
01:09:25 <elliott> >_<
01:09:28 <catseye> yeah i was wondering the date based on nedit and xv being the apps...
01:09:41 <elliott> people still use nedit :P
01:09:59 <catseye> do people still use xv??
01:10:05 <elliott> catseye: it was last released 1997 btw
01:10:07 <elliott> also i doubt it
01:10:10 <elliott> well it's in the evilwm screenshot, but
01:10:24 <elliott> catseye: the guy still uses wmx, which is wm2 + virtual desktops + xft + other violations of his zealot philosophy he originally typed out :)
01:10:29 <elliott> uses/maintains
01:10:52 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Wm2.png more recent screenshot from some wikipedian, this one has *gtk1 mozilla* in it!
01:10:53 <elliott> and checkerboard!
01:11:47 <elliott> i may (or may not) adopt some sort of vertical-menu-taskbar approach a la nextstep.
01:11:52 <elliott> dunno. perhaps not
01:13:49 <elliott> catseye: am i young -- i had no idea what xv actually did until now
01:13:55 <elliott> apart from it being image-related
01:15:07 <catseye> it was the first piece of unix-based graphics software i ever encountered. am i old?
01:15:20 <elliott> yes.
01:15:24 <elliott> well no not that old :)
01:15:38 <elliott> catseye: does it really do its own widgets? :p
01:15:43 <catseye> IT WAS RUNNING ON A REAL X-TERMINAL...
01:15:45 <elliott> looks like vms. apparently it ran on vms too
01:15:54 <elliott> wait not vms
01:15:56 <elliott> catseye: ok you're old
01:16:02 <elliott> exceedingly old
01:16:07 <elliott> guy came by today
01:16:09 <elliott> looking for a pl/i channel
01:16:11 <elliott> he missed you
01:16:12 <elliott> what a SHAME
01:16:14 <catseye> yeah i saw that.
01:16:19 <catseye> tickled pink.
01:16:47 <catseye> the *one* chance i get to use that knowledge...
01:16:57 <catseye> oh, ha, like i retained any of it.
01:16:59 <elliott> he'll be around freenode, keep whoising >:)
01:17:05 <elliott> i think you can set up a reminder on freenode dunno :P
01:17:20 <elliott> things i learned from irregular webcomic today: spirit's sister rover is still fully operational! wtf!
01:17:26 <elliott> Opportunity
01:17:33 <catseye> all i really remember is that it is a brutal language. structures are defined by indentation, and there are no types (just some variables are "like" other variables.)
01:17:39 <elliott> "But Spirit wasn't the only part of the 2003 Mars Exploration Rover Mission. The mission had two Mars rovers. Spirit's twin rover, Opportunity, landed on Mars 21 days after Spirit, on 25 January, 2004.
01:17:40 <elliott> And, as of today, Opportunity is still fully operational.
01:17:40 <elliott> It continues to travel across the surface of Mars, seeing new and previously unexplored Martian terrain, investigating the soil and rocks, taking pictures, making measurements, and communicating all of this valuable information back to us on Earth. For the past two Earth years it has been driving, slowly, towards the large crater known as Endeavour, making scientific measurements along the way. Barring disaster, it should reach Endeavour some tim
01:17:41 <elliott> e in the next few months."
01:18:08 <elliott> oh nice pl/i is pronounced "p l one"
01:18:16 <elliott> gotta love single-digit roman numerals
01:18:23 <catseye> yep
01:18:27 <olsner> programming language one (as in the one and only?)
01:18:35 <elliott> the first REAL programming language YAR
01:18:37 <elliott> *YARR
01:18:37 <catseye> as in Ubuntu One
01:18:43 <elliott> Ubuntu I
01:18:44 <elliott> iBuntu
01:18:50 <catseye> There Can Be Only ok nevermind
01:18:52 <elliott> iBuntu. Do youBuntu?
01:18:57 <elliott> -- tv ad in a few years time
01:19:03 <catseye> oh dear lord
01:19:07 <elliott> Find out what you'llBuntu at ibuntu.com.
01:19:20 <olsner> wasn't pl/i the one with something like a hundred defined passes of the compiler, with each pass always passing on its garbled impression of the code from the previous pass rather than aborting?
01:19:36 <elliott> [woman] "iBuntu!"
01:19:39 <catseye> olsner: it could well be. it had that feel.
01:19:39 <elliott> [man] "*i*Buntu!"
01:19:45 <elliott> [couple] "weBuntu!"
01:19:50 <elliott> [crowd] "everyoneBuntu!"
01:19:55 <catseye> olsner: it did have macros defined at the AST-level, so...
01:20:10 <elliott> [woman] "Find out why people are saying that theyBuntu... and maybe you'll be saying it too."
01:20:21 <elliott> [crowd] "iBuntu at iBuntu.com!"
01:20:23 <olsner> I seem to recall a fairly recent horror-story featuring PL/I
01:20:26 <elliott> "From Canonical."
01:20:37 <catseye> elliott: please do not let any of them see this.
01:20:54 <elliott> catseye: i will attempt to cause clog to erase the previous lines.
01:20:55 * Sgeo will pastie it and paste into #ubuntu (not really)
01:21:05 <elliott> there, that should do it
01:21:33 <elliott> ubuntu two is gonna be so ubuntu
01:21:38 <elliott> it'll fuck you in the ass. the true meaning of ubuntu
01:21:45 <elliott> ("humanity to others" is a very... loose translation)
01:21:52 <elliott> giving your "humanity" to others
01:21:57 <elliott> "giving"
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01:30:14 * catseye boots up TortoiseShell
01:31:05 <Gregor> Super Mario Brothers: The Movie: The Game
01:32:35 <catseye> it would be kind of like that "Pac Land" game
01:33:02 <catseye> where Pacman has ARMS and LEGS
01:33:04 <catseye> o.O
01:33:20 <catseye> >U<
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01:45:55 <pikhq> Gregor: So, we're seeking to evolve people into dinosaurs?
01:46:10 <Gregor> Always.
01:46:21 <olsner> what else would we be seeking?
01:46:54 <catseye> AT&T is already a good approximation
01:47:02 <catseye> Granted, that's *multiple* people
01:47:11 <catseye> But it simulates the sluggish CNS rather well.
01:47:54 <Gregor> Maaaan
01:47:55 -!- boscop has left (?).
01:47:56 <Gregor> This game is HARD
01:48:15 <catseye> Gregor: I have yet to try it
01:48:29 <catseye> Now that the protagonist is Gregor, I am somewhat averse
01:48:44 <catseye> Please tell me it is actually "chibi Gregor"
01:49:01 <Gregor> It's a tiny little walking guy, which I put a hat and tie on to make be me.
01:49:10 <catseye> Oh okay. That's not so bad.
01:49:42 <Gregor> Also, I only have it as a /game/ on my system :P
01:49:49 <catseye> It was mainly the whole "bookmarklet" technology which has scared me away from trying it.
01:49:49 <Gregor> I haven't uploaded the game components yet.
01:50:00 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:50:02 <Gregor> All it does is add two script tags to the current page.
01:51:12 <catseye> ok, figured it out. now, where to try...
01:51:34 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/
01:51:51 * Sgeo will be disconnecting from IRC ninish
01:52:44 <catseye> I tried sourceforge.net. It was quite amusing.
01:52:55 <catseye> Especially after I clicked "WebPlat!" a second time
01:57:04 <catseye> Wait, this "bookmarklet" thing though...
01:57:15 <Sgeo> Bye
01:57:33 <catseye> BYE SGEO
01:59:44 <Gregor> OK, I added the first "game" version of WebPlat.
01:59:47 <Gregor> Collect the images!
01:59:53 <Gregor> (Not yet uploaded :P )
02:00:31 <catseye> These JS bookmarklets, could they inject Ajax calls into a page? I can't see why not.
02:01:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:01:43 <pikhq> Most certainly.
02:02:03 <catseye> I should test WebPlat on IE :)
02:03:45 -!- augur has joined.
02:03:46 <Gregor> It's easy to win on Google :P
02:03:53 <Gregor> Now, the real challenge...FACEBOOK
02:04:11 <catseye> "Armillaria hinnulea... are edible, but can be easily confused with poisonous Galerina species, which can grow side-by-side with Armillaria."
02:04:24 <catseye> to whoever was saying MUSHROOMS N.P.
02:04:43 <Gregor> Images remaining:61
02:05:13 <Gregor> OMGOMGOMG
02:05:16 <Gregor> FACEBOOK IS PERFECT 8-D
02:05:26 <Gregor> (Note: it does not display perfectly, it is perfect for this game)
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02:07:25 <catseye> WOW, IE is... so not even there.
02:07:25 -!- augur has joined.
02:08:03 <catseye> There's no "Bookmarks". Instead you have a "Favorites Center".
02:09:39 <catseye> I srsly cannot create a bookmark manually.
02:09:46 <Gregor> Bleh, only got 28/33 on Facebook :P
02:09:55 * Gregor gives Wikipedia another go.
02:10:13 <catseye> I can still the JS in the URL bar, and Chibi Gregor appears...
02:10:16 <catseye> *stick
02:11:02 <Gregor> AS IF BY MAGICK
02:11:23 <pikhq> How do you collect images, exactly?
02:13:09 <catseye> How to do it: Bookmark anything else. Open "Organize Favorites". Select the link you bookmarked, right-click, "Properties". Edit URL to be that text in the textbox. CAVEAT: STILL DOES NOT WORK.
02:13:12 <pikhq> Apparently by not being on a site with annoying divs.
02:13:21 <catseye> Chibi-Gregor appears, but does not respond to input.
02:13:54 <pikhq> FUCK DIVS
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02:14:32 <Gregor> pikhq: Specifically?
02:15:31 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:16:04 <pikhq> www.dresdencodak.com
02:16:08 <pikhq> SO MANY DIVS
02:17:05 <Gregor> I can't even load it.
02:17:15 <Gregor> I can if I don't misspell though.
02:17:40 <Gregor> Hah
02:17:43 <Gregor> That is some crazy divs
02:17:47 <pikhq> Yup.\
02:18:50 <Gregor> Something is all wrong with my image counting ...
02:18:55 <Gregor> Images collected:51
02:18:56 <Gregor> Images remaining:-1
02:19:16 <catseye> halp
02:19:23 <Gregor> catseye: ?
02:19:41 * catseye flails arms outstretched in front
02:19:55 <catseye> No worries, just give me some moments.
02:21:52 <Gregor> Fixt image counting :P
02:22:02 <Gregor> Still can't win at Wikipedia though.
02:23:51 <Gregor> Images collected:7
02:23:52 <Gregor> Images remaining:10
02:23:52 <Gregor> :(
02:24:06 <catseye> You'd THINK that part would be simple.
02:24:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
02:25:12 <catseye> ok so yesterday FF *.10 became available. now FF *.11 is available. SCRAMBLEFIXCODE.
02:25:55 <Gregor> I win at Spamusers!
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02:27:11 <Mathnerd314> catseye: you're still using FF?
02:27:30 <catseye> Mathnerd314: hell, just a moment ago I was using *IE* :)
02:27:48 <catseye> Mathnerd314: I'm curious, what do you mean by "still"?
02:28:24 <catseye> Is Firefox now obsolete? Am I, as a rat, obligated to desert this sinking ship?
02:28:47 <Mathnerd314> well, FF is obsolete. Just checkout the beta
04:27:00 -!- clog has joined.
04:27:00 -!- clog has joined.
04:27:02 <catseye> (note surprise here that it doesn't TELL me "hey, um: mime type?")
04:27:06 <Gregor> clog: HELLO!
04:27:11 <pikhq> catseye: Still. FIX IT ITS A BAD IDEA.
04:27:11 <Gregor> clog: WELCOME, our friend!
04:27:20 <Gregor> clog: Will you PLEASE not talk about [X]HTML?
04:27:28 <Gregor> clog would never talk about XHTML.
04:27:29 <pikhq> catseye: It is *technically* valid to send out "HTML compatible" XHTML as application/html.
04:27:33 <pikhq> catseye: Just a bad idea.
04:27:34 <bsmntbombdood> html is a bad idea
04:27:40 <catseye> pikhq: I'll... see what I can do. It's not a high priority until something looks atrocious.
04:27:42 <bsmntbombdood> we should all use sexps
04:27:50 <pikhq> catseye: "HTML compatible" meaning it uses *absolutely no* XHTML-specific features.
04:28:07 <pikhq> catseye: And if you do that, there is no point in using XHTML at all.
04:28:17 <pikhq> catseye: So. FIX IT NAO
04:28:36 <pikhq> catseye: Or else I will sentence you to 2 months writing a tag soup parser.
04:29:52 <pikhq> Gregor: If you're not fixing it then I'm not done.
04:30:01 <Gregor> I LOVE CAPS.
04:30:05 <bsmntbombdood> oh lawd
04:30:18 <catseye> if I try codu.org/test.xhtml in IE, it prompts me to save it to disk
04:30:31 <pikhq> catseye: Yes, because IE doesn't handle XHTML at all.
04:30:38 <bsmntbombdood> at all?
04:30:54 <pikhq> catseye: And sending XHTML as application/html only works on IE at all through its tag soup parser.
04:31:01 <Gregor> bsmntbombdood: At all.
04:31:10 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Some versions will show the parse tree of the XML.
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04:31:28 <catseye> if I tell it "open it" it asks me "OMG you are running something you found on the INTERNET!" and then opens it in Firefox.
04:32:30 <bsmntbombdood> that's funny
04:32:39 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Oh. IE9 beta supports XHTML.
04:33:41 <Gregor> IE9 supports EVERYTHING.
04:33:47 <Gregor> IE9 is legitimately an OK browser.
04:34:08 <Gregor> IE9 will probably run webplat, which is what we're all supposed to be talking about ;)
04:34:18 <pikhq> And SVG... And HTML5 stuff...
04:34:49 <pikhq> It's actually fixed most of the problems of IE that make web developers angry.
04:34:57 <bsmntbombdood> internet explorer doesn't do svg?
04:35:03 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Nope!
04:35:06 <bsmntbombdood> good god
04:35:30 <pikhq> Internet Explorer didn't handle PNG fully until *this year*.
04:35:41 <pikhq> Erm, *last* year.
04:35:54 <pikhq> (previously, it had broken transparency support. Less broken in IE7.)
04:36:40 <Gregor> quintopia: While we're at it, have any game ideas? I made things more modular so I can inject new games semi-easily.
04:37:08 <quintopia> what what
04:37:09 <quintopia> oh
04:37:47 <quintopia> idea: map a key so that standing on a link and pressing that key goes to that link
04:38:34 <bsmntbombdood> i can't imagine why people would use it
04:39:10 <Gregor> quintopia: I can do that easily enough, it just takes a bit of effort to load the character on the other side of that link :P
04:39:14 <Gregor> Which is why I've punted on it thusfar.
04:40:44 <quintopia> then don't worry about loading it on the other side
04:40:48 <quintopia> just go to the link
04:40:49 * quintopia shrugs
04:41:17 <quintopia> 'snot like it's difficult to click the bookmark again
04:41:18 <oerjan> <Gregor> I LOVE CAPS. <-- not just hats?
04:41:36 <Gregor> oerjan: Boo. Hiss.
04:41:55 <Gregor> quintopia: That doesn't help the "you're adventuring" aspect much :P
04:41:59 <catseye> we call him "oerjan of the nondeterministic lexicon"
04:42:52 <quintopia> Gregor: it's a prototype :D
04:43:23 <pikhq> Gregor: Seriously though, XHTML-as-HTML is about as ignorant and redneck as it's possible to be while still knowing what XHTML is. Make it STAWP.
04:43:55 <quintopia> an easy enough way to make the character appear on the other side would be replacing all the URLs on the page with one that loads the page via codu... yes?
04:44:11 <quintopia> or not the actual URLs, but the URL it sends you to when you hit that key
04:44:14 <quintopia> yeah that'd be better
04:44:48 <catseye> Interestingly, if I force application/xml+xhtml, nothing breaks except the background image. Which is defined in CSS. So I have no idea why that breaks.
04:45:07 <pikhq> catseye: XHTML has a different DOM than HTML.
04:45:30 <pikhq> Doing this can *also* break Javascript.
04:45:44 <quintopia> come to think of it, wouldn't it be better if all this happened via codu pages like codu.org/webplat/play.html?url=yoururlhere
04:46:37 <oerjan> ururlhere
04:46:52 <quintopia> no, we don't speak of ur-URLs here
04:47:01 <oerjan> udont?
04:47:08 <oerjan> kthen.
04:48:28 <pikhq> Gregor: See that: your CSS might not work on XHTML!
04:52:29 * Gregor breaks the bookmarklet again :P
04:52:35 <catseye> It's case sensitive in XHTML.
04:52:51 <catseye> If I convert the CSS element selectors to all lowercase, it looks fine again.
04:52:56 <pikhq> Yeah, XHTML is case sensitive as well.
04:53:26 <Gregor> Now, webplat presents a menu of games!
04:53:31 <Gregor> Of which there is of course only one option!
04:53:31 <Gregor> BUT STILL!
04:53:34 <Gregor> ... MENU!
04:54:23 <pikhq> Meanwhilst, Final Fantasy!
04:54:31 <pikhq> (Meanwhilst? Is that a word? It should be.)
04:54:31 <Gregor> It seems I broke it! Hoopla!
04:55:52 <Gregor> Meanwhile, people in the 21st century are using the word "meanwhile" and sending XHTML as HTML!
04:56:33 <pikhq> Gregor: Do you use gets?
04:56:51 <pikhq> (that is, char *gets(char *s);)
04:56:53 <quintopia> and back at the ranch, a gang of zebras stars in a sylvester stallone western!
04:57:08 <Gregor> pikhq: I modified my GCC so it wouldn't give me a warning about gets, JUST so I could use it!
04:57:17 <pikhq> Gregor: So you're consistent.
04:57:39 <pikhq> "I do stupid, retarded things that you have to be smart to do out of SPITE! MWAHAHAHA."
04:58:18 <Gregor> And YOU'RE comparing using a hideously insecure function to potential rendering issues! Which I have neither committed to fixing nor committed to not fixing, merely not committed to fixing at the moment! YEAH.
04:59:17 <oerjan> schrödinger's bugfix
04:59:30 <pikhq> Gregor: It's still dumb.
05:00:59 <quintopia> "I have very strong opinions and everyone who doesn't like them is an idiot."
05:01:32 <quintopia> where'd i leave my matches...
05:01:48 <pikhq> quintopia: Technical issue -- there is, in fact, a RIGHT and a WRONG.
05:01:48 <catseye> I'm half-considering serving all my xhtml as application/xml+xhtml and letting IE users upgrade or suffer.
05:02:03 <pikhq> And it is WRONG to serve XHTML as application/html.
05:02:15 <Gregor> quintopia: Hey! I want to see a hat DRAMATICALLY SPLAYED BY A CORPSE. ... of me?
05:02:40 <pikhq> quintopia: That I know not how to argue as anything but a zealot is beside the point.
05:02:44 <pikhq> :P
05:03:00 <quintopia> pikhq: if there are issues with my last statement, it is because it was intentionally hyperbolic. hence, why i'm looking for my strawman-burning matches
05:03:19 <pikhq> quintopia: Oooh, I love strawmen!
05:03:41 <quintopia> Gregor: PATIENCE PADAWAN
05:03:43 <pikhq> Serving XHTML as application/html is raping babies. Would *you* rape babies! (only thing I love more is non sequiturs)
05:03:47 <quintopia> let the artist work
05:03:58 * Gregor lets the artist work :P
05:04:11 <pikhq> ... And quite amusingly, that last sentence is a command, not a question.
05:04:21 <pikhq> So, I just requested that everyone here rape babies.
05:04:23 <pikhq> Go me!
05:04:26 <bsmntbombdood> brb
05:04:48 <bsmntbombdood> wait, how many babies?
05:04:59 <pikhq> Unspecified amount.
05:05:12 <Gregor> If I even knew what a <DD> tag WAS, that might help me give it a more reasonable bounding box ...
05:05:14 <pikhq> I think I'm going to have to limit it to the set of naturals, though.
05:06:03 <pikhq> Nay, the integers.
05:06:30 <oerjan> Doomsday Device
05:06:37 <Sgeo> <3 xkcd
05:06:39 <bsmntbombdood> i think naturals make more sense
05:06:45 <bsmntbombdood> how does one rape negative babies?
05:06:51 <pikhq> Not my problem!
05:07:56 <Sgeo> Someone in my class is confused by XML. He doesn't know why anyone would choose to use it
05:08:20 <bsmntbombdood> Sgeo: most sane people wonder the same thing
05:08:24 <catseye> Sgeo: it's like choosing to drive on the right-hand side of the road
05:08:42 <catseye> You don't do it because it's the prettier side of the road or anything
05:09:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: You should avoid XML unless you need to interoperate with something that uses XML.
05:13:17 <Sgeo> Gregor, http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=5700495
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05:20:59 <quintopia> errrr whoops...
05:21:06 <Gregor> quintopia: ?
05:21:07 * quintopia just accidentally quit ff instead of closing a window
05:21:20 <quintopia> oh yeah gregor. i just made a gstander
05:21:31 <quintopia> for standing still without looking like you want to take a shit
05:21:40 <Gregor> Yes :P
05:25:06 <quintopia> obtw. you may have to make all the sprites taller and wider to keep your code simple, because jumping and dying require taller and wider sprites
05:25:27 <quintopia> i'll let you know exactly how many rows and columns to add to which borders
05:25:38 <quintopia> because i cba to do it myself
05:28:33 <Gregor> Okidoke.
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05:30:01 <quintopia> although, your code is going to have to be aware of the sprites' size changes anyway. adaptive bounding boxes are best...
05:30:07 <quintopia> i'll let you work it out.
05:30:15 * quintopia goes back to spiriting
05:37:40 <Gregor> quintopia: Could you at least send me the standing one so I can quickfix that? :P
05:38:30 <quintopia> aye
05:39:50 <quintopia> http://imgur.com/anCv5
05:42:13 <quintopia> http://imgur.com/PGhIz sorry to be a perfectionist, but the mouth was the wrong color on that one....
05:42:27 <quintopia> and probably is the wrong color on all the runners... :/
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05:42:48 <Gregor> I have a mouth???
05:42:50 <quintopia> you can't see it at scale, but it bugged me enough zoomed in to edit
05:43:36 <quintopia> do you seriously have long blonde hair dude?
05:43:49 <Gregor> Yup.
05:43:57 <Gregor> That's why I made this character me :P
05:44:14 <quintopia> can i see you wearing this hat pleeeeeeease?
05:44:34 <Gregor> http://codu.org/hats/SteelHomburg-med.jpg
05:44:47 <Gregor> That's not that hat, but in the pic of me I have with that hat, my hair is up :P
05:44:57 <quintopia> ah
05:44:57 <Gregor> http://codu.org/hats/Tyrolean-med.jpg
05:45:15 <quintopia> how many hats have thee?
05:45:16 <pikhq> Quite a nice hat.
05:45:20 <pikhq> http://codu.org/hats.php
05:45:27 <quintopia> so that's exhaustive?
05:45:36 <oerjan> or at least exhausting.
05:45:58 <Gregor> Not actually exhaustive, I have some new ones I haven't added yet.
05:46:04 <Gregor> Quite a few actually, I need to get to that >_>
05:46:04 <quintopia> needs more jester hat
05:46:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
05:46:28 <quintopia> i only have like three non-cap hats >>
05:46:39 <pikhq> I have no hat.
05:46:56 <pikhq> Nor do I have long hair any longer.
05:47:08 <quintopia> if you did, it would be longer hair
05:47:25 <Sgeo> I don't think I have many hat
05:47:26 <Sgeo> hats
05:47:35 <Sgeo> One from Disney World from when I was a kid
05:47:36 <catseye> I listen to "Men Without Hats"
05:47:41 <Sgeo> Battery powered thingy
05:47:49 <Sgeo> And... that's it, I think
05:47:57 <quintopia> the safety dance guys?
05:48:00 <Sgeo> I'll have to check
05:50:04 <quintopia> hat 1: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v374/158/27/12807307/n12807307_34726356_576.jpg
05:50:13 <quintopia> (indiana jones fedora thing)
05:51:12 <Gregor> Having the jumping animation would definitely be a plus X-D
05:51:18 <Gregor> BUT for the moment this is an improvement.
05:52:28 <quintopia> hat 2: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v11/101/94/12805677/n12805677_5114828_2108.jpg (only used on sep 19 and occasionally oct 31)
05:55:15 <Gregor> quintopia: By the way, these pixel-art running guy images are SOOO PERFECT for this.
05:56:01 <quintopia> hat3: http://k1.cdn.okcimg.com/php/load_okc_image.php/images/16/150x150/558x800/28x43/178x193/0/1179623903808528596.jpeg
05:56:06 * quintopia goes back to jumping man now
05:56:44 <Gregor> By the way, if possible jumper should have both a "jumping" and "falling" image.
05:57:28 <quintopia> there will be more than just jumping and falling sir
05:57:39 <Gregor> Ooh la la
06:02:28 <quintopia> oh my goodness
06:02:54 <quintopia> um, anyone want to fly to vegas for next to nothing?
06:03:09 <Gregor> Not desperately.
06:05:42 <quintopia> meh, i think it's a facebook scam anyway
06:05:53 <quintopia> back to business
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06:13:02 <Gregor> OK, wtf. Image caching fail.
06:13:07 <Gregor> It's redownloading images. A lot.
06:15:51 <quintopia> okay so i couldn't make an archive for some damn reason
06:15:52 <Gregor> (Or at least, so indicates Firebug)
06:15:55 <quintopia> http://imgur.com/bhtND&RjMf9&qvOcx
06:16:08 <quintopia> the one with the flattened tie is jumping up
06:16:18 <quintopia> the other two are for falling (alternate rapidly)
06:16:39 <quintopia> hold tight and i'll make the special double jump sequence
06:17:06 <Gregor> Oooooh!
06:17:49 <Sgeo> I should set up TrueCrypt at some point
06:18:04 <Sgeo> Unless the BitLocker thing's available to Home Premium users
06:19:06 <Mathnerd314> doesn't truecrypt have some really weird license?
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06:19:40 <quintopia> gregor: aren't you supposed to load all the images when the page/script loads into an array? i used js once for a picture gallery thing and that kept them cached.
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06:20:01 <Gregor> That's what I'm doing.
06:20:15 <Gregor> Apparently if you just bang the same .src into an image over and over again, it'll reload even if it's cached :P
06:20:23 <Gregor> Have to make sure to only request a change when there's a change :P
06:20:46 <Gregor> imgur appears to have un-transparentized those.
06:20:52 <quintopia> lame
06:21:25 <Gregor> tar + filebin = so much more reliable :P
06:21:36 <quintopia> 01:15 < quintopia> okay so i couldn't make an archive for some damn reason
06:22:41 <quintopia> okay, apparently, it successfully made an archive
06:22:49 <quintopia> but didn't give me any user feedback on success
06:22:58 <quintopia> and this is the only reason i fucking use GUIs
06:23:00 <quintopia> alright one sec
06:23:37 <quintopia> http://filebin.ca/yxuzq/jumperl.png.tar.gz
06:24:08 <Gregor> UNIX 101: No news is good news
06:24:35 <Gregor> Uhhhhh
06:24:39 <Gregor> These have no transparency either.
06:24:39 <quintopia> yep. back when programs were designed to talk to other programs
06:24:51 <quintopia> then it's a problem on my end
06:24:55 <quintopia> what color is the bg?
06:25:01 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner]).
06:27:21 <Gregor> Black.
06:27:32 <Gregor> If it wasn't, it'd be easy to fix, but it's ambiguous with the shoes ...
06:27:53 <Gregor> If the shoes are the same as in stander, I can fix it.
06:29:40 <Gregor> In fallerl0 they're obviously not though >_>
06:30:47 <quintopia> open it in an editor and see if there are multiple layers
06:31:03 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure there's a background layer that you can just delete
06:34:28 <Gregor> Only one layer for me.
06:34:35 <Gregor> (Do .pngs even support layers?)
06:34:54 <quintopia> pngs support everything
06:35:02 <quintopia> but layers may be application specific
06:35:58 <Gregor> Hrm ... his jumping looks ... kinda stiff.
06:36:15 <Gregor> The running looks good, but the jump just looks unnatural.
06:37:01 <Gregor> Not that I have any suggested fix mind you.
06:39:01 <quintopia> i have one
06:39:11 <quintopia> but first i need to fix transparency on this thing
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06:46:36 <quintopia> http://filebin.ca/nyfpq/gjumperl0.png.tar.gz
06:46:44 <quintopia> alright, i coaxed the background to white
06:46:49 <quintopia> you can delete it
06:46:53 <quintopia> put it in, let me see
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06:50:30 <quintopia> hi dur
06:51:21 <Gregor> To be clear, this is actually jumper0, faller0 and faller1, yes?
06:52:21 <quintopia> yeah, you can figure out which one was which
06:56:17 <Gregor> OK, try it now.
06:56:27 <Gregor> Jumping looks better, falling is still kinda weird IMHO.
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06:59:05 <quintopia> lololol
06:59:50 <quintopia> okay, it broken naow?
06:59:57 <Gregor> ?
06:59:59 <Gregor> Shouldn't be.
07:00:11 * Gregor tests with production version.
07:00:19 <Gregor> E_WORKSFORME
07:00:27 <quintopia> hrm
07:00:59 <quintopia> well, the menu pops up, i pick the game, and then...no dude.
07:01:07 <quintopia> :(
07:01:15 <Gregor> It might take an obscene amount of time to load :P
07:01:21 <Gregor> What browser? (Remind me ...)
07:01:24 <quintopia> ff
07:01:33 <Gregor> Odd
07:02:17 <Gregor> BTW, why did you make it a guy with long blond hair if you didn't know I had long blond hair? X-D
07:02:38 <quintopia> same thing happens on other pages
07:02:45 <Gregor> Anyway, I've no time to debug right now, need to sleep. If it magically starts working for you, hoopla?
07:02:48 <quintopia> it wasn't suppsoed to be a guy....
07:03:17 <quintopia> doubt it'll start working
07:03:23 <quintopia> i'll do the reading i need to do
07:03:26 <quintopia> nightnight
07:03:41 <Gregor> Ahhhh X-D
07:03:48 <Gregor> Well I adjusted it into a guy so bully for me :P
07:04:08 <quintopia> I COULD STILL PUT BOOBS ON IT
07:04:46 <quintopia> okay but srsly. let me know when you get it working
07:04:47 <quintopia> wait
07:04:50 <quintopia> one sec
07:05:29 <Gregor> Is there anything in the JavaScript console?
07:05:41 <quintopia> i'm getting errors about charCode of keyup event being meaningless
07:05:49 <quintopia> and so on for all keys
07:05:57 <quintopia> *key events
07:06:22 <Gregor> That's fine, that's just jQuery being jQuery. Should only be concerned about actual errors.
07:06:35 <Gregor> I know the problem X-D
07:07:26 <Gregor> Testing with http://localhost/ = I R retard.
07:07:33 <quintopia> ahahahaha
07:07:39 <Gregor> Anyway, refresh and try again :P
07:08:31 <quintopia> while you're testing, try tapping left and right once
07:08:42 <quintopia> see if it amuses you
07:08:46 <quintopia> the epicness of the hipthrust
07:09:51 <quintopia> oh, hmm, the little changes that happen when he's falling don't show up under the big motion of the falling
07:09:54 <quintopia> i can fix
07:09:58 <quintopia> ...tomorrow
07:13:05 <Gregor> quintopia: It works really well if you're falling far enough that you're scrolling with the fall, thereby keeping him in place.
07:16:43 <quintopia> haha
07:16:49 <quintopia> if you're falling that far...
07:16:52 <quintopia> you're dead
07:16:58 <quintopia> i'll make it more canabalty
07:17:28 <quintopia> (aka, leaning back and kicking to maintain balance in midair)
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07:26:52 <Gregor> I WIN AT WIKIPEDIA!
07:27:04 <Gregor> And now I really REALLY need to sleep X-D
07:27:16 <quintopia> woo
07:27:18 <quintopia> nightnight
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07:46:19 <quintopia> gregor: need to cycle through falling AND running images faster. the former looks more like shufflesliding than walking
07:58:15 <fizzie> From: Mentifex <mentifex@myuw.net>, Newsgroups: comp.sys.super,comp.lang.forth,comp.lang.javascript,alt.folklore.computers, Subject: Inching closer on the Singularity Clock.
07:58:49 <fizzie> "Greeting to all Singularitarians. The Singularity is an event brought to you free-of-charge and open-source by Project Mentifex, which has today updated the free open-source AI Mind in JavaScript for Microsoft Internet Explorer at http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/AiMind.html --"
07:58:52 <fizzie> See, it cometh!
07:59:55 <fizzie> You can write in "tom writes jokes", "ben writes books", "jerry writes rants", "ben writes articles", "will write poems", and then say "ben writes" and it will output "BEN WRITES BOOKS".
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08:00:10 <fizzie> A thinking machine! What will they invent next?!
08:00:24 <quintopia> hee
08:00:51 <quintopia> they might invent the irrational logic device next?
08:01:00 <quintopia> the infinite improbability computer?
08:03:12 <quintopia> doesn't work for me
08:05:44 <fizzie> Well, are you using IE?
08:06:41 <fizzie> It's not as interesting as older versions of the Mind, which could spew out unlimited amounts of ungrammatic nonsense about GOD doing THIS and THAT.
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13:53:43 <fizzie> Hee, they finally installed that Condor thing -- http://www.cs.wisc.edu/condor/ -- for doing parallel stuff on idle workstations. Nifty.
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14:31:44 <ais523> ugh, DHCP has suddenly stopped working here at the University on my laptop
14:31:53 <ais523> it was working yesterday, no relevant software updates since
14:31:59 <ais523> so I think something may be wrong with the routers
14:32:00 <pikhq> fizzie: Condor is a bit of a pain to deal with.
14:32:32 <pikhq> fizzie: Iiit has its own libc. Need I say more?
14:34:39 <fizzie> Fortunately "dealing" with it is (at least partially) someone else's problem; though I have to say I haven't yet tried to actually use it.
14:34:51 <fizzie> This should be a relatively homogenous environment for it, I think.
14:35:28 <pikhq> It actually works reasonably well in non-homogenous environments. It's just a pain to roll out.
14:35:55 <pikhq> Wonder if I've still got the all-VMs Condor cluster here.
14:38:28 <fizzie> Well, that's good: since rolling-out and maintaining it is the part that is done by others.
14:38:43 <pikhq> Yup.
14:48:16 <pikhq> Aaand there's more IPv4 space than there was yesterday.
14:48:34 <pikhq> Interop handed their class A back to the free pool.
14:48:44 <pikhq> One more month!
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15:00:28 <ais523> pikhq: how much of it did they keep?
15:02:16 <pikhq> ais523: None of the class A. They switched to a smaller allocation of I don't know what.
15:02:41 <pikhq> But given that they're an ISP, I'm going with "still a fuckton."
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16:08:45 <Sgeo> She is now trying to teach the basics of HTML
16:08:56 <Sgeo> Or well, skim them
16:09:13 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that it scares me that there are people in this class with no knowledge of HTML
16:10:05 <Vorpal> ais523, check with wireshark?
16:10:10 <Vorpal> (if it is still broken)
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16:13:29 <Sgeo> The whole CGI h1() thing reminds me of Seaside's painting stuff
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16:15:30 <Sgeo> Maybe people in the game progamming course will be more competent
16:16:00 <Gregor> quintopia: Still waitin' on ka-splat me :P
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16:17:40 <webquint> to whomever guessed that Plato's camera was a reference to the allegory of the cave (oerjan?), it was actually a reference to Plato's Heaven
16:17:52 <Sgeo> The sttudents in this class are morons, the professor is clueless (not as clueless as the students)
16:18:25 <Sgeo> Just argued with a student that the reason his index.html was giving 500 was because he was insisting on keeping it in cgi-bin. Finally got him to move it out, it worked
16:24:47 <webquint> gregor: not while I'm in class kthx
16:25:34 <Gregor> I sped up running and falling. They're ~11fps instead of ~8fps now.
16:29:55 <Gregor> ZOMGSICLES!
16:29:59 <Gregor> Facebook works totally correctly now!
16:30:30 <Sgeo> "A little more secure is the POST method"
16:30:51 <Sgeo> At least she is correctly stating to prefer POST... although it's a bit of a simplification to say that
16:31:07 <Sgeo> Maybe her "It's more secure" thing is just one huge deliberate oversimplification
16:32:33 <Gregor> Well, except that newly-loaded elements don't appear at all >_>
16:32:37 <Gregor> Still, pretty good :P
16:32:58 <webquint> GET is better in some situations, but choosing POST for security is like obfuscating your encryption algorithm...
16:33:44 <Sgeo> Well, if you don't know how to choose, which these students never will, then POST is probably better
16:35:31 <Sgeo> <form method="POST" action="http://localhost/cgi-bin/fig07_11.pl">
16:35:34 * Sgeo wtfs
16:38:29 <webquint> which students?
16:38:37 <Sgeo> The other students in the class
16:38:45 <Vorpal> <Gregor> I sped up running and falling. They're ~11fps instead of ~8fps now. <-- in what?
16:38:57 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://codu.org/webplat/
16:39:31 <Vorpal> oh you changed icon since before
16:40:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, I click the link to play it on the current page and it just says "Which game would you like to play? [button titled "Image collection"] at the top
16:40:35 <Vorpal> then nothing
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16:41:02 <Gregor> Vorpal: What browser?
16:41:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, firefox
16:42:01 <Vorpal> brb phone
16:42:19 <Gregor> Vorpal: That's weird, it hasn't had any problems on Firefox since ... ever :P
16:42:31 <webquint> lol in chromium, the link just displays the source code
16:43:15 <Sgeo> Not helping: The sound of drilling or jackhammers or whatever outside
16:44:54 <Gregor> webquint: ???
16:47:37 <webquint> that's what I said! "???"
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16:55:33 <Sgeo> Bye all
16:55:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm.
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16:56:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, strange, now it works
16:57:13 <webquint> bai
16:58:19 <elliott> 20:29:52 <pikhq> Gregor: If you're not fixing it then I'm not done.
16:58:30 <elliott> at least i'm only a zealot about actually important things :-P
16:58:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, why can't I collect the wikipedia logo on en.wikipedia.org ?
17:00:02 <elliott> Vorpal: it's actually a background image.
17:00:20 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, heh
17:00:47 <Gregor> You can collect it on www.wikipedia.org :P
17:00:52 <Gregor> Only actual <img> tags are collectable.
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17:02:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, on en.wikipedia.org it seems very tricky to collect both of those images down at the bottom
17:02:44 <Gregor> I've done it :P
17:02:46 <Gregor> Therefore it's possible :P
17:03:26 <elliott> Gregor: Totally gimme the bookmarklet URL or die.
17:03:44 <Gregor> elliott: http://codu.org/webplat/ it's in an input box now
17:03:48 <Gregor> JUST FOR YOU
17:03:57 <elliott> Gregor: YAY IT'S LIKE THE DAY I GOT MARRIED*
17:03:59 <elliott> *IN THE FUTURE
17:05:09 <elliott> Gregor: Pressing space does... amazing things.
17:05:14 <elliott> MULTIGREGOR
17:05:15 <elliott> Do not fix this
17:05:50 <elliott> Gregor: Hey you can enter divs now
17:05:51 <elliott> I approve
17:06:01 <elliott> Gregor: But only from the top???
17:06:47 <Gregor> You mean by pressing down?
17:06:50 <Gregor> Or otherwise?
17:06:54 <elliott> pressing down yeh
17:06:55 <elliott> *yeah
17:06:56 <Gregor> You've always been able to enter things by pressing down.
17:07:08 <elliott> Gregor: ...oh.
17:07:16 <elliott> I have been... missing out.
17:07:29 <Gregor> However, it's smarter about how many layers it puts in, so it's possible that whatever you're testing it on just had like a bajillion layers over that div, making it difficult to get through.
17:07:34 <elliott> Gregor: Amusingly it does not work on its homepage.
17:07:49 <elliott> Well.
17:07:50 <Gregor> I need some garbage there to make it more usable :P
17:07:52 <elliott> It starts immovable.
17:08:32 <elliott> Gregor: qwantz.com: So unplayable but SO RECOMMENDED
17:09:02 <elliott> Gregor: It... I fell to the bottom and it looks like he's masturbating.
17:09:14 <elliott> Oh that's your "falling" animation.
17:09:24 <Gregor> I don't have a death frame yet :P
17:11:33 <elliott> Gregor: Try the log index.
17:12:21 <elliott> Gregor: I... yeah, doesn't work.
17:12:25 <Gregor> ???
17:12:28 <Gregor> Oh
17:12:32 <elliott> But would be SO COOL
17:13:09 <Gregor> Try timecube :P
17:13:44 <elliott> Gregor: I'm falling slowly through crazy.
17:13:59 <elliott> Man evolves from teenager -
17:13:59 <elliott> in cube metamorphosis
17:13:59 <elliott> but ignores teenager to worship a male mother,
17:13:59 <elliott> guised in woman's garb,
17:13:59 <elliott> churchman called father.
17:13:59 <elliott> what
17:15:51 <elliott> Gregor: Resizing window breaks everything.
17:15:56 <Gregor> Yes, it does.
17:15:58 <Gregor> Don't do that.
17:16:10 <Gregor> I have to cache the location of every element as there is no getElementByPosition function.
17:16:46 <elliott> Your mother is no getElem-
17:18:15 <elliott> Gregor: ubuntu.com -- it thinks a lot of basically invisible things are images.
17:18:36 <elliott> Gregor: Works fine on debian.org, showing your clear bias.
17:19:36 <elliott> Gregor: I beat debian.org woo
17:19:45 <elliott> Gregor: plz stop ctrl+w snatching
17:19:53 <Gregor> That's actually bothered me too X-D
17:20:01 <Gregor> I should just turn off WASD.
17:20:10 <elliott> Gregor: I use wasd.
17:20:16 <elliott> Just make ctrl+w do window.close() :P
17:20:26 <Gregor> Bleh.
17:20:30 <Gregor> I will, but not right now :P
17:21:10 <elliott> Gregor: apple.com also unplayable :P
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17:21:47 <elliott> Gregor: Why does space do multipayer?
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17:22:09 <Gregor> elliott: Because the button from the choose-your-game loader is still focused, even though it's not visible.
17:22:15 <Gregor> So you're clicking it again.
17:22:27 <Gregor> I should actually remove it from the document instead of just making it invisible, but apparently I'm lazy.
17:22:34 <elliott> It's fun though.
17:23:07 <elliott> Gregor: apple.com/itunes is fun & challenging
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17:25:09 <elliott> Gregor: i won \o/
17:25:09 <myndzi> |
17:25:10 <myndzi> >\
17:25:11 <elliott> *I
17:25:29 <elliott> Gregor: ...HAVENWORKS
17:26:00 <Slereah> It's fun to stay at the
17:26:08 <elliott> Gregor: It's so beautiful
17:26:22 <Gregor> elliott: Isn't it weird how this very-stupid stopgap game intended only to be replaced is a lot of fun :P
17:26:26 <Slereah> \o/ |o\ /o| _o/ /o\
17:26:26 <myndzi> | | | |
17:26:26 <myndzi> /| /| /< /|
17:26:35 <elliott> Gregor: NEVER REPLACE IT OMG (You have tried it on havenworks right?)
17:26:55 <elliott> Images collected:56
17:26:55 <elliott> Images remaining:1698
17:26:57 <Gregor> No, I'm outside :P
17:27:35 <Gregor> Well, not so much replaced as made just one subgame.
17:28:13 <elliott> Gregor: You don't have horizontal scrolling; rectify.
17:30:14 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, it considers my screen border the page border,t oo, or something.
17:30:15 <elliott> Lame.
17:30:16 <elliott> *, too,
17:30:42 <quintopia> yeah, the top of the page being a boundary is annoying
17:30:54 <quintopia> cuz pages always have images at the top
17:30:59 <quintopia> and you can't get above
17:31:29 <elliott> quintopia: If you can get a few hundred images on http://havenworks.com/, I will worship you.
17:31:49 <Gregor> The horizontal issue is a huge mess
17:31:57 <elliott> HavenWorks is a huge mess :P
17:32:08 <Gregor> Some pages have wtf-wide divs floating around
17:32:11 <elliott> Gregor: /me tries it on yvettes bridal formal
17:32:16 <elliott> OH YEAH.
17:32:17 <quintopia> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
17:32:19 <Vorpal> elliott, is there any formally proven libc?
17:32:23 <elliott> Vorpal: No.
17:32:31 <elliott> Gregor: It provides the game music for you.
17:32:47 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, I guess anything dealing with IO would be tricky, floating point too perhaps. But the rest should be doable
17:32:49 <quintopia> yvette's bridal formal is to mine ears like BGP is to cpressey's
17:33:00 <Vorpal> it sounds like a fun project if I find some spare time
17:34:00 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, it's... really not that easy
17:34:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't say easy
17:34:15 <elliott> it would be an *incredible* result if someone made a full libc that was formally proven.
17:34:16 <Vorpal> just doable
17:34:26 <elliott> i.e. frankly i'd expect someone to make their own tool for it :)
17:34:35 <elliott> (proving tool)
17:34:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I very much doubt you can prove stdio without involving the kernel a lot
17:35:02 <elliott> Vorpal: there's an L4 variant that has been proven correct
17:35:04 <elliott> written in haskell
17:35:05 <Vorpal> heh
17:35:11 <elliott> Vorpal: build it on that
17:35:13 <elliott> problem solved
17:35:55 <Vorpal> elliott, but even something like a library with a large number of the "doesn't touch anything but parameters, and don't perform IO" standard libc functions would certainly be useful to people who want to prove their own code
17:36:11 <elliott> usually the libc would be considered axiomatic there...
17:36:30 <Vorpal> hm good point
17:36:39 <Vorpal> elliott, it would still be useful for embedded programming
17:37:13 <Vorpal> elliott, thinking about stuff like formally proven qsort, memcpy, memmove, strcmp and so on
17:37:34 <elliott> if your libc maintainer gets qsort right...whoa.
17:37:43 <elliott> or memcpy/memmove (maybe they tried to do tricky bullshit)
17:37:44 <elliott> *wrong...
17:38:43 <Vorpal> elliott, well, if you are writing for an embedded system you might have to provide the libc yourself. Been in that position myself
17:38:56 <Vorpal> (not where I needed to do formal proof though)
17:39:27 <Vorpal> elliott, as for qsort, well, overflow is something you might have to consider
17:39:30 <elliott> what, did you write a libc for lego? :p
17:40:00 <Vorpal> elliott, nah, another device, and not a full libc, just the stuff I needed for that thing, which was memcpy, strcmp and a handful of other ones
17:40:58 <Vorpal> hm formally proving snprintf sounds... tricky
17:41:40 <elliott> can you please say "proving snprintf correct", not just ... proving it?
17:41:45 <elliott> it's... awkward.
17:41:46 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right, I can
17:41:56 <elliott> and it sounds like you're proving that snprintf is true
17:42:00 <elliott> which... confuses my brain
17:42:17 <Vorpal> elliott, but wait, that wouldn't be correct would it? Proving means "testing" or "putting at trial" here clearly ;P
17:42:33 <Vorpal> (no not really, just that archaic meaning is fun)
17:42:52 <Vorpal> (and it also makes "the exception proves the rule" a _lot_ more sensible)
17:42:58 <Vorpal> sorry, bbiab, phone
17:46:39 <quintopia> gregorface: figured out why transparency wasn't working. should be good now.
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17:53:59 <elliott> coppro: you fail at cloaks
17:54:19 <coppro> elliott: yeah, apparently I do
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17:54:46 <coppro> I blame the ping timeout
17:55:08 <elliott> I... don't :P
17:55:27 <coppro> well too bad
17:55:52 <elliott> 22:22:49 <quintopia> but didn't give me any user feedback on success
17:55:52 <elliott> 22:22:58 <quintopia> and this is the only reason i fucking use GUIs
17:56:04 <elliott> Yeah, because it's more reasonable to expect programs to fail without error messages, and succeed by blabbing.
17:56:20 <elliott> Like gcc!
17:56:24 <elliott> $ echo '{' >x.c
17:56:30 <elliott> $ gcc x.c
17:56:33 <elliott> $ echo >x.c
17:56:35 <elliott> erm
17:56:42 <elliott> $ echo 'int main(){return 0;}' >x.c
17:56:45 <elliott> $ gcc x.c
17:56:51 <elliott> x.c:1: Compilation finished SUCCESSFULLY!
17:56:52 <coppro> no news is good news
17:57:05 <elliott> coppro: thx, someone else was already uncreative enough to say that back when it was said
17:57:07 <elliott> :P
17:58:44 <quintopia> it may be more reasonable at that, since errors require some sort of functionality to print. if a bug in a program causes it to jump to the exit(0) before it has finished, then shall we presume it succeeded? i'd rather know that it reached the printf("success!") which is provably only reachable if success was achieved. one could even barrier said message with tests that make sure success actually happened.
17:59:15 <coppro> quintopia: if you care, you can always tack a check of success on the end
17:59:21 <elliott> 06:48:16 <pikhq> Aaand there's more IPv4 space than there was yesterday.
17:59:21 <elliott> 06:48:34 <pikhq> Interop handed their class A back to the free pool.
17:59:22 <elliott> 06:48:44 <pikhq> One more month!
17:59:23 <elliott> who're interop?
17:59:36 <elliott> quintopia: in unix, if it says nothing, it worked.
17:59:41 <coppro> or take the unix route and prove each utility correct independently
17:59:46 <elliott> if it says something, it might have worked; read what it said.
17:59:49 <coppro> so therefore any composition of them is also success
17:59:53 <elliott> if it says something and exits with exit code 1, it definitely didn't work.
17:59:57 <elliott> just in case you can't read
18:00:00 <quintopia> yes, but unix is dead, like god
18:00:12 <coppro> nope
18:00:14 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
18:00:15 <quintopia> i'd rather have feedback for everything, success and failure
18:00:16 * elliott loads a webpage, involving countless dead unix machines on the internet
18:00:20 <coppro> unix philosophy is still the <3
18:00:21 <elliott> Fairly low ping time for a dead OS.
18:00:29 <elliott> quintopia: ok, seriously, you have no idea why it's a good thing?
18:00:33 <coppro> how do you pipe stuff then
18:00:34 <quintopia> i do
18:00:49 <elliott> coppro: no it isn't, unix is a piece of shit
18:00:51 <elliott> i'm just explaining the piece of shit
18:01:03 <quintopia> coppro: by setting up alternate ways of programs communicating than via files and stdio of course
18:01:20 <coppro> grep foo <file | sort "a\b\c\d\e\f\g\h\i\j\k\l\m\n\o\p\q\r\s\Success!\t\u\v\w\x\y\z"
18:01:26 <Vorpal> back
18:01:38 <coppro> (where \ = newline, and the string is the result)
18:02:08 <elliott> both quintopia and coppro are right and dead wrong in equal amounts
18:02:11 <elliott> on opposite issues
18:02:12 <elliott> interesting.
18:02:28 <coppro> elliott: unix is not dead because it still gets used
18:02:39 <Vorpal> elliott, gcc does give output on success...
18:02:41 <coppro> the fundamental "do one thing and do it well" philosophy is still excellent
18:02:42 <elliott> coppro: out of curiosity, why did you just address that message to me?
18:02:44 <Vorpal> elliott, a file is also a form of output
18:02:48 <quintopia> god gets used too, but that doesn't mean it isn't dead
18:02:49 <coppro> and that's all I'm asserting
18:02:56 <coppro> elliott: because you were the one telling me I'm wrong
18:02:58 <quintopia> in fact, since god died, it has gotten more and more popular
18:03:09 <elliott> coppro: it is good in the trivial, obvious sense; it is retarded in the sense that many people like to think it is.
18:03:22 <elliott> coppro: also, *no* commonly-used *nixes actually follow the philosophy.
18:03:23 <elliott> at all.
18:03:32 <elliott> "Plan 9 does!" yes it does. my point made
18:03:40 <coppro> lol
18:03:53 <elliott> <elliott> coppro: it is good in the trivial, obvious sense; it is retarded in the sense that many people like to think it is.
18:03:54 <elliott> that is
18:04:04 <elliott> the philosophy is obviously correct and trivial when interpreted in one way
18:04:07 <quintopia> and it's kind of a silly philosophy, IMO. as the Unix koans demonstrate
18:04:10 <elliott> and obviously ridiculous when interpreted in a silly way which most people do
18:04:21 <coppro> elliott: which silly way?
18:04:24 <quintopia> at least in the "do it as simply as possible" version of the philosophy
18:04:25 <elliott> wow are you guys actually coordinating when to say silly things to keep the balance :D
18:04:49 <elliott> coppro: "Everything does one thing except when it doesn't, and 'one thing' can include being a full GUI application with menus to do various tasks. It's one thing because it only operates on one type of data!"
18:04:55 <elliott> coppro: And similar abominations.
18:05:00 <coppro> ah, yeah, I totally agree
18:05:10 <elliott> coppro: Also the idea that the fact that the smaller components are divided into separate executable files is somehow *integral* to the philosophy.
18:05:23 <elliott> (If it isn't, then... it's just an obvious statement about how to design software components.)
18:06:10 <Vorpal> elliott, btw it seems why (used by frama-c for the actual proving bit) doesn't work on coq 8.3 yet. Compile error and I don't have enough ocaml or coq skills to sort it out.
18:06:18 <quintopia> i say, bring back the lisp machine! :D
18:06:21 <elliott> coppro: Oh, and I *severely* doubt the other component of the philosophy ("Structures are for noobs, all IO should totally be based on byte streams". Interestingly you never see people writing C programs this way; I wonder why they like "struct" so much?)
18:06:31 <elliott> quintopia: Lisp machines were great although the OSes didn't go far enough.
18:06:42 <elliott> But still, their component reuse for executing commands was limited, and Unix wins in that area.
18:06:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Use Coq 8.2?
18:07:19 <coppro> everything is a file is nice and flexible, but costs performance which, as it turns out, is very important
18:07:38 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, that's the plan. Just need to compile it myself instead of using the arch package then
18:07:42 <elliott> coppro: um, not really.
18:07:46 <elliott> plan 9 has no performance problems
18:07:51 <elliott> sure it costs performance on systems not designed for it
18:07:59 <elliott> but if your system isn't designed according to your philosphy...
18:08:02 <elliott> *philosophy
18:08:03 <elliott> what good is it?
18:08:08 <coppro> that I agree with
18:08:25 <coppro> and I suppose one should add that qualifier
18:08:31 <elliott> coppro: anyway the idea that files, and things coming into and out of a pipe, must be byte streams, is almost certainly wrong.
18:08:56 <elliott> as i said, you don't see unix programs being written that only use (char *), because structures are *useful* and rich
18:08:58 <coppro> elliott: but they are byte streams
18:08:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how well does plan9 scale to massive SMP or NUMA systems?
18:09:08 <elliott> coppro: you see absolutely no difference between passing an object around and doing
18:09:11 <elliott> f(serialise(obj));
18:09:12 <elliott> and then in f
18:09:16 <elliott> foo = deserialise(arg1);
18:09:17 <elliott> ?
18:09:19 <Vorpal> say, for SMP, 16 or 32 CPUs or more. For NUMA, 100 or more CPUs
18:09:40 <coppro> elliott: I don't think the OS should mandate an ABI
18:09:43 <elliott> one, it's plain inefficiency. two, serialising functions is... iffy (can't think why you'd want to do that? well of course not, because you're too tied to bytestreams :))
18:09:50 <elliott> <coppro> elliott: I don't think the OS should mandate an ABI
18:09:53 <elliott> lol
18:09:57 <elliott> that's... what OSes do
18:10:17 <coppro> The utilities on the OS mandate the ABI
18:10:26 <coppro> (except for system calls, which they do mandate)
18:10:40 <elliott> ...it is interesting how the terminology is twisted to give Unix an advantage, having all these silly terms that are relevant only to Unix stupidity and meaningless elsewhere
18:10:48 <elliott> because the unix fans can just say, "what about the [silly]?"
18:10:55 <Vorpal> elliott, only to some degree. Consider the Linux kernel, it mandates the syscalls and ioctls and such. But not the actually calling convention for calling something like strcpy()
18:11:00 <coppro> which? ABI? systemcalls?
18:11:12 <elliott> coppro: for instance, the distinction between an OS and its utilities
18:11:15 <elliott> I guess by OS you meant kernel.
18:11:23 <elliott> Kernel vs programs is also an artificial distinction for many system designs.
18:11:27 <coppro> elliott: ah, yeah, fair
18:11:29 <elliott> (For instance, Smalltalk.)
18:11:32 * coppro apologizes
18:11:47 <elliott> So really you can't even say "the kernel shouldn't specify that".
18:11:55 <elliott> coppro: Hell, I'm not offended, it's just interesting.
18:12:23 <elliott> coppro: Another one: "OS", "language" distinction. (Yes, it makes sense in many cases; but the terminology has somehow made them into such opposing concepts that suggesting a design where they are the same thing is considered meaningless heresy.)
18:12:26 <coppro> in that case, the bytestream abstraction still becomes necessary for communication with systems of different OSes (or the same OS on a different architecture or configuration)
18:12:48 <coppro> elliott: I sit next to a lisp machine on a regular basis now :D
18:13:06 <Vorpal> elliott, smalltalk doesn't run on bare hardware as far as I know in any current implementation? Not sure about historical implementations
18:13:16 <elliott> coppro: What model? Where? Is it for sale? How much does it cost? Answer to the last question desired irrelevant of the answer to the second-last.
18:13:19 <Vorpal> obvious example however is lisp machines
18:13:20 <elliott> Vorpal: Smalltalk was always an OS.
18:13:27 <elliott> Then it became a VM-language.
18:13:31 <elliott> i.e. OS in a box
18:13:51 <coppro> http://www.globalnerdy.com/2008/12/03/symbolics-xl1200-lisp-machine-free-to-a-good-home/
18:13:57 <Vorpal> elliott, were there any actual working non-VM implementations?
18:14:01 <elliott> Vorpal: yes. the first one.
18:14:09 <Vorpal> elliott, when and what name?
18:14:11 <elliott> coppro: i read that post a while ago!
18:14:16 <elliott> Vorpal: 70s and "Smalltalk".
18:14:36 <elliott> coppro: Yes, but, cost for buying it from you guys.
18:14:52 <coppro> elliott: You'd have to ask the CSC. I don't know if they'd sell it
18:15:06 <quintopia> i would also purchase a lisp machine. that would be hella cool.
18:15:16 <elliott> coppro: Let's put it this way, it costs $3,500 new from Symbolics.
18:15:21 <coppro> "costs"?
18:15:23 <elliott> coppro: I am willing to negotiate a price below that.
18:15:27 <elliott> coppro: Yes, Symbolics still sell Lisp Machines.
18:15:33 <elliott> http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt Prices as of February.
18:15:37 <elliott> quintopia: you can for $675
18:15:41 <elliott> you'll have to go and collect it though really
18:15:52 <elliott> in Virginia :P
18:16:01 <elliott> i guess you could pay a ridiculous, *ridiculous* amount for postage instead
18:16:08 <coppro> it is "Currently inoperable due to (at least) a missing console cable,"
18:16:13 <quintopia> hell, i'd go to virginia for it
18:16:13 <elliott> coppro: oh.
18:16:18 <Vorpal> elliott, custom hardware ore "stock" for that time?
18:16:21 <quintopia> va is cool in my book
18:16:21 <Vorpal> or*
18:16:24 <coppro> I never said it worked
18:16:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, it was at Xerox PARC.
18:16:27 <quintopia> and it's only 3 states over
18:16:28 <elliott> quintopia: Stanislav of Loper OS bought one.
18:16:29 <coppro> I merely said I sit next to it sometimes
18:16:38 <elliott> quintopia: Ask him about it if you want. He might yell at you :P
18:16:40 <Vorpal> elliott, well, that means it ran on?
18:16:55 <elliott> Vorpal really can't imagine an era before mass-produced standard computers. Wow.
18:17:09 <elliott> Vorpal: You do realise they made the Alto?
18:17:28 <Vorpal> elliott, yes
18:17:46 <elliott> Anyway I don't know if the machine is known, it was probably whatever PARC were using at the time.
18:18:00 <elliott> It predated the Alto, it seems.
18:18:08 <elliott> Vorpal: I also can't find a source for the OS thing but I'm fairly sure.
18:18:22 <Vorpal> elliott, let me rephrase it: did it go the lisp machine route of *specialised* hardware fitting the language, or did it look more like traditional PDPs and so on in the way it worked
18:18:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Hmm, it seems it was written for the Alto.
18:18:33 <Vorpal> elliott, right
18:18:36 <elliott> The hardware was relatively normal, I think.
18:18:52 <Vorpal> right, that answers my question
18:19:00 <elliott> Vorpal: It may have actually been a "program" that took complete control over the display and the like; the distinction wasn't very clear in those days.
18:19:09 <elliott> Vorpal: "The Alto had a bit-slice processor based on the Texas Instruments' 74181 chip, a ROM control store with a writable control store extension and had 128 (expandable to 512) kB of main memory and a hard disk that used a removable 2.5 MB single-platter cartridge (Diablo Systems, a company Xerox later bought) similar to those used by the IBM 2310, all housed in a cabinet about the size of a small refrigerator. The Alto's CPU was a very innova
18:19:09 <elliott> tive microcoded processor which used microcode for most of the I/O functions rather than hardware. The microcode machine had 16 tasks, one of which executed the normal instruction set (which was rather like a Data General Nova), with the others used for the display, memory refresh, disk, network, and other I/O functions. As an example, the bitmap display controller was little more than a 16-bit shift register; microcode was used to fetch display
18:19:10 <elliott> refresh data from main memory and put it in the shift register."
18:19:20 <elliott> It introduced Ethernet on personal computers, incidentally.
18:20:02 <elliott> quintopia: I'd totally buy a 3620 but while I could scrap together $675 to buy it eventually going to Virginia is... not an option.
18:20:35 <Vorpal> elliott, "personal" by some definitions
18:20:41 <elliott> quintopia: BTW apparently the CRT is very crappy (for today), and the mouse too. Stanislav was also working on an interface to use a regular LCD display and a USB or PS/2 mouse with it, I think.
18:20:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it was single-user.
18:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, looks more like workstation to me
18:20:49 <quintopia> elliott: point me to this stanislav guy
18:20:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Workstations are personal computers.
18:20:56 <elliott> quintopia: Dunno if he ever got it done though.
18:21:02 <elliott> quintopia: http://loper-os.org/
18:21:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah but what do you call the set PC \ Workstations ?
18:21:33 <coppro> elliott: anyways, back to the OS thing; byte streams are the lowest common denominator between computers; so byte-communication facilities must exist - not that they necessary need to be the normal mode of cross-process communication (/me envisions Erlang machines)
18:21:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't.
18:21:47 <elliott> quintopia: I recommend picking the LispMachine tag from the right and leaving a comment on an appropriate post.
18:21:51 <elliott> quintopia: He seems to not publish his email on that site.
18:21:52 <Vorpal> elliott, hrrm
18:22:12 <elliott> coppro: Well, you still need bytestrings for storing stuff in memory and on disk.
18:22:18 <elliott> coppro: And shoving over Ethernet.
18:22:35 <elliott> coppro: I doubt we'll ever see "object RAM" or "object disk" (not those object disks, disks that actually store objects :)) and I doubt they would be beneficial.
18:22:45 <elliott> coppro: So there's no real issue with bytestring for inter-computer communication.
18:22:49 <Gregor> quintopia: Hoopla. Still no splat though ;)
18:22:52 <quintopia> The GUI of my 4MHz Symbolics 3620 lisp machine is more responsive on average than that of my 3GHz office PC. The former boots (into a graphical everything-visible-and-modifiable programming environment, the most expressive ever created) faster than the latter boots into its syrupy imponade hell.
18:23:02 <Vorpal> <coppro> elliott: anyways, back to the OS thing; byte streams are the lowest common denominator between computers; <-- not really
18:23:05 <elliott> quintopia: He... that furore, get used to it.
18:23:08 <quintopia> Gregor: splat is low priority. let's get jumping looking nice first
18:23:18 <Gregor> quintopia: But I splat a lot :P
18:23:22 <Vorpal> coppro, 1) How large is a byte? Not always 8 bits in fact. Today yes but not historically
18:23:31 <elliott> "And then he splat, all over my computer."
18:23:34 <elliott> coppro: Let's maul Vorpal, together.
18:23:36 <Vorpal> coppro, 2) What about ternary computers, they don't use bytes
18:23:40 <elliott> coppro: Are you with me?
18:24:18 -!- Gregor has set topic: Mandelbrot was found stabbed by the Julia set | TOO SOON | Logs: http://is.gd/g4uID.
18:24:34 <Vorpal> coppro, also I read some paper that studied the viability of an erlang machine some time ago
18:24:56 -!- elliott has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities found smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | http://is.gd/g4uID.
18:25:00 <Vorpal> coppro, was quite interesting, don't know where I found it though. I don't think it was from the HiPE group, not sure though
18:25:11 <Vorpal> elliott, how disrespectful
18:25:16 <elliott> Vorpal: * Gregor has changed the topic to: Mandelbrot was found stabbed by the Julia set | TOO SOON | Logs: http://is.gd/g4uID
18:25:22 <elliott> It is never too soon.
18:25:24 <Vorpal> oh missed that
18:25:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, how disrespectful
18:25:38 <elliott> Fuck everyone who would want people to be serious and somber about their own death.
18:25:45 <Gregor> elliott: MUCH better.
18:25:47 <Gregor> elliott: I couldn't find a good fractally thing.
18:25:57 <elliott> You think Mandelbrot said "...and when I die, don't you dare get amusement out of it"?
18:26:00 <Gregor> However, "TOO SOON" was there for yuks :P
18:26:08 -!- Gregor has set topic: Mandelbrot stabbed to death; on autopsy, authorities found smaller version of Mandelbrot inside | TOO SOON | http://is.gd/g4uID.
18:26:12 <elliott> He's awesome. He died. Now stop weeping and lol.
18:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, would you have done that the day you decided to move the link all over to the right?
18:26:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd have laughed if someone did.
18:26:52 <Vorpal> hm
18:27:01 <elliott> Doesn't always joke about deaths immediately != finds joking about deaths incredibly offensive
18:27:02 <Vorpal> elliott, but you wouldn't have done it yourself I presume?
18:27:09 <elliott> Doesn't always joke about deaths immediately != finds joking about deaths incredibly offensive
18:27:15 <Vorpal> elliott, true, I would wait a few more days thoygh
18:27:18 <Vorpal> though*
18:27:33 <elliott> He's dead. It's not like his corpse is going to decompose just that little bit more so that he can't hear.
18:27:38 <elliott> ...although that would be vaguely amusing.
18:27:47 <elliott> "LOL HE DIED" "I heard that!"
18:27:51 <elliott> "Maybe we should cremate him instead."
18:28:25 <Vorpal> elliott, he might get angry and become a fractal zombie, and there is no end to those...
18:28:33 <Gregor> elliott: Your line is almost worth vandalizing Wikipedia with :P
18:28:37 <elliott> "BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS nested inside other brains"
18:31:51 <Vorpal> elliott, hm do you know if there could be any issues installing coq into ~/local/coq or such? I mean, I have no idea how it an ocaml locates libaries and such. Should I expect the kind of pain you have with installing python packages outside /usr/lib/pythonX.Y/site-packages?
18:32:08 <elliott> Vorpal: OCaml doesn't have any dynamically-linked runtime as far as I know.
18:32:10 <Vorpal> I will probably use system ocaml if possible
18:32:10 <elliott> It should work fine.
18:32:14 <Vorpal> elliott, phew
18:32:34 <Vorpal> elliott, any issues at compile time though?
18:32:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't see why. It should work.
18:33:11 <Vorpal> elliott, what about compile time finding?
18:33:17 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't see why. It should work.
18:33:22 <Vorpal> well okay
18:35:15 <elliott> Why don't AMD make any good processors.
18:35:58 * Gregor <3 Intel
18:36:05 <Vorpal> elliott, interesting build system coq has
18:36:40 <elliott> Gregor: Do you <3 their awful business practices? <3 their refusal to put virtualisation on a lot of laptop processors for no reason?
18:36:46 <elliott> Do you <3 this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11379089
18:36:52 <Vorpal> elliott, it looks like configure tries to fake looking like autoconf, but then when it was halfway done decided "screw it" and dropped the double -- for options and the = for separating options and arguments
18:36:59 <elliott> Vorpal: heh
18:38:29 <elliott> "lolita", what a hostname...
18:38:52 <Vorpal> elliott, where?
18:38:58 <elliott> http://i3.zekjur.net/screenshots/i3-8.jpg
18:38:58 <Gregor> quintopia: Can you say ... crazy spinjump? :P
18:39:17 <Vorpal> elliott, who took that?
18:39:23 <elliott> Someone who uses/develops i3?
18:39:32 <quintopia> Gregor: chill. i'm working on it.
18:39:33 <elliott> "ch3ka" is their username as you can see.
18:39:41 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, so this was not related to anything said recently in this channel?
18:39:44 <elliott> Nope.
18:39:52 <Gregor> quintopia: Oh, you're actually making something like a crazy spinjump? X-P
18:39:58 <Gregor> quintopia: I was just suggesting something different :P
18:40:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> I REALLY DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT INTEL GUYS <-- you recently changed here? I seem to remember you making fun of my reluctance with intel
18:40:29 <elliott> Vorpal: I love Intel processors, I dislike AMD's current offerings.
18:40:32 <elliott> Intel the company I hate.
18:40:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> Do you <3 this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11379089 <-- yeargh
18:40:42 <quintopia> meanwhile, you can work out the physics for making it so i can punch a <P> and all the text disappears (and it becomes non-platform) while all the <a>s within it remain platforms
18:40:49 <elliott> Vorpal: That article has pretty much pushed me over the edge.
18:40:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Before, AMD's processors were bad enough to keep me supporting Intel.
18:41:00 <elliott> Now... flergh.
18:41:09 <Gregor> quintopia: ... YES.
18:41:15 <elliott> <quintopia> meanwhile, you can work out the physics for making it so i can punch a <P> and all the text disappears (and it becomes non-platform) while all the <a>s within it remain platforms
18:41:19 <Gregor> quintopia: But no, I'm at "work" :P
18:41:19 <elliott> quintopia: let's get married
18:41:24 <elliott> IDEA MARRIAGE
18:43:36 <quintopia> oh i have so many ideas for this thing
18:43:42 <quintopia> just wait til you see the skulldog
18:43:45 <quintopia> and the balloon
18:43:51 <elliott> Gregor: Congratulations, quintopia now owns your game.
18:43:52 * quintopia has idea sex with elliott
18:44:01 * elliott sues quintopia for statutory idea rape
18:44:23 <Gregor> quintopia: I so desperately need ideas, so I'll take what I can get :P
18:44:27 <quintopia> is that a civil law tort?
18:44:37 <elliott> I tort I tor a putty cat.
18:44:40 <Gregor> quintopia: BTW, what copyright info and license should I provide for the images?
18:44:51 <elliott> Gregor: And now quintopia will profit off your game.
18:44:52 <elliott> GREAT JOB HERO
18:44:56 <quintopia> put them under MIT/X11 too
18:44:57 <quintopia> why not
18:45:04 <elliott> quintopia: Dude, profit!
18:45:17 <quintopia> elliott: all in good time
18:45:24 <Gregor> quintopia: OK, and seeing as that I don't know your real name, what Copyright (C) line would you like on them once I get the project page all put together?
18:45:31 * quintopia makes a truly devilish face
18:45:41 <elliott> Gregor: Quin T. Opia
18:45:55 <quintopia> David Rutter
18:46:08 <elliott> quintopia: That's just your ALIAS.
18:46:13 <elliott> He wants your NAME, Quin.
18:46:22 <quintopia> SHHHHHHH
18:46:25 <quintopia> NO ONE MAY KNOW
18:46:48 * Gregor vaguely wonders how many times he's been drawn in pixel-art form now X-P
18:46:51 <elliott> quintopia: Ohh right you're not calling yourself Quin any more because of that one time you raped a cat.
18:46:57 <elliott> Don't worry, I won't tell anyone.
18:47:13 <Gregor> Putting all of quintopia's stuff together as one (and counting it as me even though it wasn't originally intended to be), at least three ...
18:49:49 -!- catseye has joined.
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18:51:08 <Vorpal> Camlp4 library in : +camlp5
18:51:20 <Vorpal> elliott, slightly amusing configure output ^
18:51:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Things to learn when using OCaml: OCaml makes no sense.
18:51:43 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, that explains it
18:51:49 <elliott> Vorpal: camlp4 and camlp5 are extensions to OCaml that let you define Lisp-style macros.
18:51:52 <catseye> it's like java, where 1.6 means 6
18:51:56 <elliott> Vorpal: camlp5 is an incompatible version of the language.
18:51:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Both are maintained.
18:52:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Well.
18:52:18 <Vorpal> so, why did it find v4 in v5 hm
18:52:20 <elliott> "Camlp4 is part of the official OCaml distribution which is developed at the INRIA. Its original author is Daniel de Rauglaudre. OCaml version 3.10.0, released in May 2007, introduced a significantly modified and backwards-incompatible version of Camlp4. De Rauglaudre maintains a separate backwards-compatible version, which has been renamed Camlp5. All of the examples below are for Camlp5 or the previous version of Camlp4 (versions 3.09 and prior
18:52:20 <elliott> )."
18:52:26 <catseye> and perl, where 6 means &*%#^
18:52:26 <elliott> "Even though it was released two years ago, the current version of camlp4 doesn't have yet a manual. The "Camlp4 manual" is from 2003, and is not compatible with present version."
18:52:31 <elliott> Vorpal: If it works, try not to think about it.
18:53:19 <Vorpal> elliott, also in the list of how configure configured stuff:
18:53:23 <Vorpal> Coq web site : http://coq.inria.fr/
18:53:25 <Vorpal> hm
18:53:32 <Vorpal> I wonder what option to configure sets that
18:53:45 <elliott> --coq-web-site=http://fun.on.nimp.org/
18:53:45 -!- catseye_ has quit (Client Quit).
18:53:48 <elliott> (Don't click that. srsly)
18:54:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well. that would be -coq-web-site http://example.org/ if it existed
18:54:31 <Vorpal> but well, not there
18:54:36 <Vorpal> at least not in -help
18:54:41 <elliott> it probably isn't an option
18:55:07 <Vorpal> elliott, why then list it in the list of stuff like "found optional thing x" and so on
18:55:13 <elliott> Who knows.
18:55:18 <Vorpal> indeed
18:55:41 <catseye> france
18:55:43 <catseye> go figure
18:55:48 <elliott> Fun things to do: Turn off images, JavaScript, Java. Set up default fonts. Disable websites' ability to change fonts. Set colours to all black on white, including links. Disable sites' ability to set these too. Disable image loading.
18:56:10 <Vorpal> elliott, why not just use lynx or something
18:56:26 <elliott> Lynx isn't point-and-click. Also it keeps layout, just not colours and images.
18:56:28 <elliott> Layout is important :P
18:56:34 <Vorpal> ah, fun, it's "make world" not just plain "make"
18:56:40 <catseye> yeah there was a much easier way to accomplish that pointless task more efficiently
18:56:40 <Vorpal> for no very obvious reason
18:57:15 <catseye> Vorpal: they... are paying homage to bsd
18:57:26 <Vorpal> catseye, maybe
18:57:26 <catseye> or are just very weird
18:57:27 <Vorpal> anyway
18:57:32 <catseye> france. go figure
18:57:33 <Vorpal> it is what INSTALL says
18:57:37 <Vorpal> but in the makefile:
18:57:39 <Vorpal> NOARG: world
18:57:44 <Vorpal> is the first target
18:57:45 <elliott> make world is quite common with functional language impls
18:57:51 <elliott> since it's the whole libs and stuff
18:57:53 <elliott> not just say the compiler
18:57:54 <Vorpal> elliott, so either would actually work here
18:57:58 <elliott> catseye: it's not that pointless a task
18:58:03 <elliott> it makes several websites significantly less irritating :)
18:58:23 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, but there is nothing in plain "make" or even "make all" that implies that it is not the whole thing
18:58:33 <Vorpal> elliott, after all, "make all" logically should be exactly that, all
18:58:39 <Vorpal> always: ;
18:58:42 <Vorpal> interesting target
18:59:46 <catseye> 'all' always struck me as a bit gratuitous (it's a phony target, and 'make' should really suffice)
19:00:09 <catseye> $ make some
19:00:26 <Vorpal> catseye, by default make just uses the first target, if you have several binaries to build or such, what would you call the first target
19:00:27 <Vorpal> well
19:00:36 <Vorpal> all: program1 program2 program3 program4
19:00:40 <Vorpal> that makes kind of sense
19:01:10 <Vorpal> the rest of the coq makefile, which is custom as far as I can tell, is quite hairy. And gnu make specific.
19:01:32 <catseye> sort of. i still don't like that it's phony, though. if i were a *real* purist i'd proobably want make.sh to call 'make program1', 'make program2'...
19:01:49 <catseye> or to redesign the conceptual model :/
19:02:16 <Vorpal> catseye, make.sh? yeargh
19:02:17 <elliott> but archaeologists?
19:02:51 <cheater99> GNAA Last Measure Live!
19:08:18 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, coq seems to be a slow one to compile
19:08:25 <elliott> Vorpal: well.
19:08:29 <elliott> i'm not surprised.
19:08:32 <elliott> it's a large piece of software.
19:08:32 <Vorpal> elliott, nor am I
19:08:42 <Vorpal> elliott, but I think we are looking at hours here.
19:08:43 <elliott> Vorpal: the libraries will probably take a while too. uh, not sure if they're compiled actually
19:08:44 <elliott> but whatever
19:08:48 <elliott> Vorpal: huh -- maybe a slow machine?
19:08:51 <elliott> i wouldn't expect that long
19:08:59 <Vorpal> elliott, well, my desktop. 2 GHz
19:09:00 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe if it's trying to verify the included four-colour theorem proof :)
19:09:05 <Vorpal> sempron 3300+
19:09:10 <Vorpal> elliott, hahah
19:09:12 <elliott> Vorpal: or the goedel's first incompleteness proof (dunno if they still/ever bundle(d) that)
19:09:20 <elliott> *incompleteness theorem
19:09:27 <quintopia> elliott: is it the simplified FCT proof or the original one?
19:09:31 <Vorpal> elliott, nice
19:09:47 <elliott> quintopia: Vorpal: http://r6.ca/Goedel/goedel1.html
19:09:53 <elliott> quintopia: it's a tweaked modern one, I think
19:09:53 <Vorpal> elliott, but you are looking at 5-10 seconds per file or more here. Some files took like a minute
19:09:58 <elliott> quintopia: in fact I know :P
19:10:00 <Vorpal> elliott, slow as g++ but not as memory hungry
19:10:10 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact it is quite modest in memory usage
19:10:10 <elliott> Vorpal: and a lot faster resulting code than g++...
19:10:14 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
19:10:14 <elliott> if it's running ocaml
19:10:20 <elliott> Vorpal: or most likely ocamlopt
19:10:24 <elliott> Vorpal: wait
19:10:27 <Vorpal> elliott, it is the opt one
19:10:27 <elliott> Vorpal: do you have ocaml.opt?
19:10:31 <elliott> not ocamlopt
19:10:45 <elliott> Vorpal: wait no
19:10:47 <elliott> Vorpal: do you have ocamlopt.opt?
19:10:53 <Vorpal> elliott, better up, I have ocamlopt.opt
19:10:56 <elliott> Vorpal: that's the optimising ocaml compiler, compiled with the optimising ocaml compiler
19:10:58 <elliott> Vorpal: right
19:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: fastest compilation you can get then
19:11:11 <elliott> ocamlopt = optimising compiler
19:11:15 <elliott> .opt = compiled with optimising compiler
19:11:18 <elliott> ocamlopt.opt = obvious
19:11:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to have every ocaml thing in an .opt except ocaml itself
19:11:31 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah i think ocaml itself is fast enough that it doesn't need an .opt
19:11:36 <elliott> since it doesn't optimise as heavily
19:11:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hm what is ocamlbuild.native ?
19:11:46 <elliott> quintopia: fun thing about that proof, it could actually print out the unprovable statement
19:11:51 <Vorpal> elliott, the other ones are ocamlbuild and ocamlbuild.byte
19:11:52 <elliott> quintopia: with a little bit of tweaking of types
19:12:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, it has been going at:
19:12:10 <elliott> Vorpal: builds to (or the ocamlbuild executable is built with) native code
19:12:11 <Vorpal> COQC contrib/setoid_ring/Field_theory.v
19:12:11 <elliott> one of the two
19:12:15 <Vorpal> for about half a minute now
19:12:15 <elliott> Vorpal: rather than bytecode
19:12:20 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, then it's compiled coq
19:12:23 <elliott> and it's not using ocaml any more
19:12:29 <elliott> well it probably is
19:12:32 <elliott> but mainly coq
19:12:46 <Vorpal> elliott, well yes, it actually compiled the coqc one pretty soon, about a minute or two into the compilation
19:12:54 <Vorpal> elliott, it is the stuff after that that takes ages
19:13:00 <elliott> Vorpal: that's just because Coq is slow as fuck
19:13:06 <elliott> which is to be expected
19:13:06 <Vorpal> elliott, right
19:13:22 <Vorpal> elliott, ah but COQC contrib/setoid_ring/Field_tac.v took just half a second
19:13:33 <Vorpal> hm
19:13:36 <elliott> Vorpal: tactics
19:13:42 <elliott> they don't require complicated thought :P
19:13:57 <Vorpal> elliott, what about these fast ones then:
19:13:59 <Vorpal> COQC contrib/setoid_ring/Field.v
19:13:59 <Vorpal> COQC contrib/setoid_ring/RealField.v
19:14:02 <elliott> Vorpal: (tactics are the little proof-searching/generating mini-programs used when proving stuff)
19:14:08 <elliott> e.g.
19:14:11 <Vorpal> right
19:14:15 <elliott> reflexivity. rewrite foo.
19:14:20 <elliott> reflexivity is a tactic, so is rewrite
19:14:28 <elliott> "auto" is a tactic, so is "auto with arith"
19:14:37 <elliott> (they can have more complex syntax than just "t x y z")
19:14:50 <Vorpal> elliott, yep, it is obvious that tactics have to refer to something like that, considering how it is used in other proving software
19:14:56 <Vorpal> the term that is
19:16:28 <elliott> i want to put OS X in a vm now :)
19:16:34 <elliott> CAGE THE BEAST
19:17:14 <Vorpal> elliott, what triggered that sudden urge?
19:17:25 <elliott> dunno
19:17:55 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, iirc you *need* hw virualisation for it to work under virtualbox
19:18:09 <Vorpal> and it needs a lot of fiddling.
19:18:20 <elliott> Vorpal: It would probably work better with a Hackintosh (hate that word) build.
19:18:21 <Vorpal> elliott, doubt that will work actually
19:18:38 <Vorpal> elliott, you *still* need that iirc
19:18:41 <Vorpal> even under virtualbox
19:19:18 <quintopia> what the hell did they change about the underlying unix (bsd?) that makes it so damn hard to virtualize?
19:19:32 <Vorpal> [download] 0.6% of 106.02M at 45.14k/s ETA 39:52 <-- fuck youtube
19:20:02 <Vorpal> no it isn't my connection that is loaded, and other stuff is fast when I try it
19:20:22 <elliott> quintopia: it's not BSD at the very bottom
19:20:29 <elliott> quintopia: at the bottom, it's Mach
19:20:42 <elliott> quintopia: then, it's a heavily(!)-modified FreeBSD kernel
19:20:43 <quintopia> weird
19:20:52 <elliott> quintopia: then, it's some FreeBSD command-line stuff
19:20:53 <Vorpal> and other youtube videos download fast
19:20:54 <elliott> and the rest is all apple
19:20:58 <elliott> quintopia: oh, and remember that this all happened on ppc
19:21:01 <elliott> and *then* they ported it all to x86
19:21:11 <elliott> probably they used a lot of FreeBSD x86 code
19:21:11 <elliott> but still
19:21:23 <elliott> it's an x86->ppc->x86 port in some ways
19:21:31 <quintopia> well that answers that question
19:21:40 <elliott> quintopia: also ofc they've never attempted to make it run on anything but apple hardware for obvious reasons
19:21:44 <elliott> which is rather unconventional
19:21:56 <quintopia> nah, that's their business model
19:22:05 <elliott> not really.
19:22:09 <Vorpal> quintopia, stuff that makes it hard: requires EFI, tries to validate it only run on actual apple hardware, very limited support for hardware that apple don't use in their computers
19:22:13 <elliott> they don't make their hardware incompatible for the fuck of it :)
19:22:26 <Vorpal> thank god there is mac pro, otherwise it would probably not even have a generic VGA driver
19:22:37 <elliott> Vorpal: ITT: Laptops have display ports too
19:22:38 <Vorpal> because mac pro needs that if someone puts in an unsupported card
19:22:42 <elliott> oh, right
19:23:02 <Vorpal> elliott, external ports are completely irrelevant here :P
19:23:19 <quintopia> elliott: yes, they do. they say "we only support the hardware we support, and we're not wasting any time or money developing support for all your other fucking shit"
19:23:59 <elliott> quintopia: which is an entirely different thing from them changing the hardware for the hell of it.
19:24:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:24:56 <quintopia> i'm sure they had a much better reason than "for the hell of it"
19:25:02 <quintopia> something to do with the bottom line
19:25:13 <elliott> quintopia: and 9/11 was an inside job
19:25:45 <quintopia> and ehird is stallman's alternate personality
19:27:04 <elliott> quintopia: you... i'm the one saying that apple aren't changing their hardware configurations just to stop people using OS X on other machines, and you call me a zealot?
19:27:37 <quintopia> i never called you a zealot...
19:28:01 <elliott> you don't consider stallman a zealot?
19:28:28 <quintopia> i think he's enough of a zealot he needs an alternate personality into which to channel his less zealotous aspects
19:28:55 <quintopia> or maybe i should say, stallman is ehird's alternate personality
19:29:15 <quintopia> and you're channeling your subconcious zealotry into that public image
19:30:09 <quintopia> so does that rotaninrub guy ever talk?
19:32:27 <quintopia> (also, re: previous discussion. it seems we agree in some sense and you thought i disagreed in a different sense)
19:33:04 <elliott> lawl
19:38:43 <quintopia> lol, this new falling sprite looks like moonwalking
19:40:26 <elliott> quintopia: make it rotate constantly in a ball
19:40:27 <elliott> tumbling
19:41:40 <quintopia> no, that's for double jumps only
19:41:56 <quintopia> they will be psychonauts style doubles
19:42:23 <elliott> i like how you've taken over designing his game.
19:43:12 <Vorpal> <quintopia> lol, this new falling sprite looks like moonwalking <-- hm where?
19:43:19 <quintopia> well, i have to. how else can i prevent him from fucking it up :D
19:43:31 <Vorpal> oh websplat
19:43:39 <quintopia> Vorpal: too late. the moonwalking version is non-production.
19:44:55 <quintopia> dear gregor: rename the project "Websplat" immediately kthx
19:46:52 <elliott> so, flinix; discuss
19:47:26 <quintopia> rhode island is neither a road, nor an island: discuss amongst yaselves
19:48:19 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, coq just finished compiling
19:48:28 <elliott> <elliott> so, flinix; discuss
19:49:51 <quintopia> Michael Bay; discuss
19:50:14 <quintopia> oh look, it doesn't work for me either
19:51:09 <elliott> #;
20:08:18 <Vorpal> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
20:08:32 <Vorpal> this package gives you a Makefile.config.example and leaves the rest to you
20:08:33 <Vorpal> -_-
20:08:58 <Vorpal> pretty large file too
20:09:27 <elliott> Vorpal: which package?
20:10:08 <Vorpal> libapron, which is a dependency for some features in why that I want
20:10:18 <elliott> nothing wrong with makefile.config :P
20:10:53 <Vorpal> elliott, not in general no, but it asks stuff like where GMP or MPFR can be found
20:10:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:11:00 <Vorpal> elliott, stuff that could be easily autodetected
20:11:03 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:12:11 <Vorpal> -std=c99 -U__STRICT_ANSI__ <-- fun
20:15:50 <quintopia> GREGOR: http://filebin.ca/yosxja/croucherl.png.tar.gz
20:16:41 <quintopia> Gregor: for jumping, switch to croucher before taking off for only a couple of ms, then go to jumper0, then halfway through flight jumper1, then at peak, briefly, faller0, then rapid alternation of faller1 and faller2 as usual.
20:21:56 <elliott> Vorpal: oh god, #debian has fallen prey to But What Do You Want To Do, Really, I Mean With Your Life Syndrome:
20:22:00 <elliott> <somiaj> drasko: how about we go back to your original problem, what is it you are trying to do?
20:22:00 <elliott> <elliott> <drasko> Hi all. GCC cross compilation complains about missing MPC. What debian packet to look for ?
20:22:03 <elliott> <somiaj> well was more thinking what he is wanting to cross compile, why is he doing such a thing
20:22:17 <elliott> we refuse to answer your specific questions. totally not because we don't know the answers
20:22:25 <elliott> we just want to help you do it in the most bestest, debianest way. totally.
20:22:28 <elliott> so don't do that.
20:24:46 <Vorpal> elliott, is that representative of the channel in question?
20:25:04 <elliott> Vorpal: it only requires one active person to do it to infect the channel
20:25:21 <elliott> Vorpal: other places prone to this: #python (this is basically *all* they do), ##c
20:25:46 <elliott> seriously, ask anything in #python and they'll just say "what are you doing?" and refuse to let you give anything but the design of your entire application
20:25:57 <elliott> then they tell you not to do that, and to do everything you're doing completely differently.
20:26:03 <elliott> because it's more P Y T H O N I C
20:26:34 <Vorpal> elliott, well, in this case it is indeed absurd. Sometimes however it is justified, when someone asks a too specific question, like "how do I get the stdlib function foo to do bar" when a better solution would be "use quux to do it instead, since it is already designed to do that"
20:26:42 <elliott> Vorpal: right
20:27:18 <Vorpal> elliott, heck, when you are working on learning a new language with an extensive standard library that situation is quite common
20:27:22 <elliott> Vorpal: but not "how do i set the frobnicate register to X?" "why are you trying to do that?" "to floobidah the zigzag" "why?" "to provide an interface for my program" "don't do that, use iHyperTek(TM) instead" "fuck you" "*kicks*"
20:27:31 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
20:27:53 <elliott> later:
20:28:06 <quintopia> I C A N U S E S P A C E S
20:28:18 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: / q u i t).
20:28:29 <elliott> "how do I get iHyperTek(TM) to recoilise the dissipation?" "why?" "to provide an interface for my application" "don't do that, use the frobnicate register instead" "i will maim all your babies" "i'm infertile" "fuck you" "*kicks*"
20:28:30 <Vorpal> quintopia, no, you can't. You need to read the man page for them
20:29:21 <elliott> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231392 forty eight gigs of ram
20:29:22 <quintopia> No manual entry for space
20:29:25 <elliott> with two fan units of two fans each
20:29:29 <elliott> only $3,499.99
20:29:31 <elliott> buy now!
20:29:44 <elliott> also newegg redesigned now it sucks lol.
20:29:52 <Vorpal> elliott, what sort of mobo do you need for that
20:29:58 <elliott> Vorpal: an expensive one
20:30:17 <elliott> grr
20:30:18 <elliott> y'know
20:30:21 <elliott> amd's processors would be decent
20:30:25 <elliott> if they used like half the power
20:30:28 <Vorpal> indeed
20:30:47 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why you never see them in laptops
20:31:01 <elliott> "we're not as fast as our competitor at any reasonable price point, and your electricity bill will ensure that it's at least twice as expensive as the Intel equivalent in the long-run!"
20:31:06 <elliott> "at least we're slightly less evil."
20:31:09 <elliott> "slightly"
20:31:17 <Vorpal> hah
20:31:30 <quintopia> meh, intel is pretty damn good at doing business and i don't begrudge them for it
20:31:31 <elliott> Vorpal: did you know AMD processors are made in chinese sweatshops?
20:31:39 <elliott> and used solely by illegal computer hackers?
20:31:40 <quintopia> i begrudge them the poulsbo chipset fiasco
20:32:05 <elliott> quintopia: Doing business -- like when they told a manufacturer that only N of their laptops could use AMD processors, or their deal would go bye-bye?
20:32:15 <elliott> That's called illegal.
20:32:43 <elliott> Doing business, like selling customers tons of processors with locked features and making them pay to unlock, online, features of their CPU that they have, physically?
20:32:43 <quintopia> but think of the little chinese children!
20:32:45 <elliott> That's just called being jerks.
20:32:56 <elliott> quintopia: they use chinese adults.
20:33:14 <elliott> wait no
20:33:15 <elliott> children
20:33:19 <elliott> sorry, i remembered wrong
20:33:20 <pikhq> Children aren't sufficiently resistant to the toxic chemicals to last long enough.
20:33:23 <pikhq> :P
20:33:25 <elliott> [[If your son has requested a new "processor" from a company called "AMD", this is genuine cause for alarm. AMD is a third-world based company who make inferior, "knock-off" copies of American processor chips. They use child labor extensively in their third world sweatshops, and they deliberately disable the security features that American processor makers, such as Intel, use to prevent hacking. AMD chips are never sold in stores, and you will mo
20:33:25 <elliott> st likely be told that you have to order them from internet sites. Do not buy this chip! This is one request that you must refuse your son, if you are to have any hope of raising him well.]]
20:33:35 <quintopia> well, the do provide sources for all their in-house drivers in order to actively support linux compatibility. that counts for something.
20:33:53 <quintopia> oh man, i love that video
20:33:57 <elliott> video??
20:33:58 <elliott> noob
20:33:59 <elliott> http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html
20:34:08 <quintopia> yeah i read the original too
20:35:29 <elliott> damn that Linyos Torovoltos.
20:36:33 <elliott> the best part is this
20:36:34 <elliott> "If your son has undergone a sudden change in his style of dress, you may have a hacker on your hands. Hackers tend to dress in bright, day-glo colors. They may wear baggy pants, bright colored shirts and spiky hair dyed in bright colors to match their clothes. They may take to carrying "glow-sticks" and some wear pacifiers around their necks. (I have no idea why they do this)"
20:37:12 <quintopia> hackers=candy kids. everyone knows this.
20:37:58 <elliott> quintopia: have you got a spare radiator in your house that i could borrow?
20:38:06 <elliott> ((preferably not the radioactive kind))
20:38:16 <quintopia> i am a spare radiator
20:38:18 <elliott> wow. 3 tb disks out now
20:38:23 <elliott> quintopia: can i hook up heatpipes to you
20:38:34 <quintopia> also, i have a non-functioning AMD-having computer next to me
20:38:36 <quintopia> it will serve
20:38:54 <elliott> quintopia: i... am not sure how that is a radiator :D
20:39:01 <elliott> unless you mean turning it on
20:39:09 <quintopia> it will turn on, but not post
20:39:12 <elliott> in which case i'm obliged to inform you that radiators do not generate heat out of nothing :p
20:39:15 <quintopia> powersupply is functional
20:39:16 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:39:18 <elliott> in fact i want one to get rid of heat!
20:39:26 <elliott> quintopia: see, here's how you make a fanless computer:
20:39:36 <quintopia> 1) don't use AMD
20:39:39 <elliott> - copper. heatpipes. on. every. motherfucking. thing.
20:39:42 <elliott> - gigantic. fucking. radiator.
20:39:53 <elliott> quintopia: bigger the radiator, more awesome your system can be.
20:40:07 <elliott> note: hooking things up to a radiator is probably a gigantic pain :P
20:40:20 -!- wareya has joined.
20:41:13 <quintopia> elliott: they also make radiators for people who want MORE heat: http://www.oscarsolarwaterheaters.net/images/3.gif
20:41:36 <elliott> quintopia: yeeeeees...
20:41:39 * quintopia is wai too hot right now
20:41:41 <elliott> quintopia: the idea is that you hook that up.
20:41:49 <elliott> ...of course that only works with a watercooled system
20:41:55 <elliott> quintopia: but, i mean, think what a radiator does
20:42:04 <elliott> gets a bunch of hotness, radiates it into the air, heat all gone
20:42:12 <elliott> quintopia: now think what a watercooled system does
20:42:16 <elliott> heat warms water, heat now in water, heat all gone
20:42:17 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:42:18 <quintopia> elliott: in a car, it does it with a fan. wouldn't your fanless computer be better with a fan?
20:42:22 <elliott> water goes to radiator, radiator put water in air
20:42:25 <elliott> heat all gone
20:42:40 <elliott> quintopia: "Better" as in more efficiency for the heat vs. radiator space... sure.
20:42:44 <elliott> quintopia: You do this to have a silent system.
20:42:54 <elliott> Because you're anal as fuck.
20:43:18 <quintopia> then you just put your radiator outdoors...like an A/C unit
20:43:28 <quintopia> then you can't hear the fan
20:44:42 <elliott> quintopia: that's more of a bitch to set up.
20:45:10 <quintopia> well, you can also use the geothermal cooling system
20:45:24 <quintopia> just pipe the hot water underground in a grid around your house
20:45:46 <quintopia> no fan needed, temp goes down to ~65 year-round
20:47:51 <Vorpal> <elliott> quintopia: You do this to have a silent system. <elliott> Because you're anal as fuck. <-- err, there are other reasons. For use in recording studios comes to mind
20:48:10 <quintopia> recording technicians are anal as fuck
20:48:16 <Vorpal> quintopia, 65 is very hot
20:48:27 <quintopia> also, the computers don't go in the same room as the microphones duh
20:48:38 <quintopia> Vorpal: fahrenheit
20:48:45 <Vorpal> quintopia, oh.
20:48:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, what is that in C?
20:48:57 <Vorpal> °C that is
20:49:06 <quintopia> isn't there a bot here to do that
20:49:25 <Vorpal> quintopia, use Kelvin if you prefer
20:50:19 <quintopia> 65-32=33. 33*5=165. 165/9=~18
20:50:32 <Vorpal> 18 °C, right
20:56:42 <elliott> i suck so bad at tetris
21:03:22 <elliott> http://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html is such a wonderful page
21:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, ocaml question: this think looks for a library but expects it to be [...]/lib/foo.cxma, it is [...]/lib/foo.cma, what is the difference and can I just substitute the latter for the former?
21:03:53 <elliott> Vorpal: got no idea there, but:
21:03:56 <elliott> OMake mailing list
21:03:56 <elliott> ... $(a).cxma) $(if $(BYTE_ENABLED), $(a).cma) Basically, if you have a line ...
21:04:01 <elliott> Vorpal: seems like .cma is bytecode
21:04:02 <Vorpal> hm
21:04:06 <Vorpal> dammit
21:04:06 <elliott> Vorpal: I would recompile foo with the native code compiler.
21:04:14 <elliott> Failing that, try substituting.
21:04:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought it was native
21:04:23 <elliott> Clearly not :P
21:04:39 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. So NATIVE = 1 was not respected I guess...
21:05:23 <wareya> lol
21:05:24 <Vorpal> elliott, is the ocamlopt the native one?
21:05:30 <elliott> Vorpal: yes.
21:05:35 <Vorpal> well what the fuck then
21:05:39 <Vorpal> it compiled using that
21:05:49 <elliott> This chapter describes the Objective Caml high-performance native-code compiler ocamlopt, which compiles Caml source files to native code object files and link these object files to produce standalone executables.
21:05:55 <elliott> Vorpal: well, try substituting.
21:05:56 <elliott> see what happens
21:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well, file thinks it is bytecode
21:06:09 <elliott> Vorpal: well, try substituting.
21:06:09 <elliott> see what happens
21:06:12 <Vorpal> hm okay
21:06:12 <elliott> it may work with bytecode anyway
21:06:13 <elliott> for some reason
21:06:29 <Vorpal> elliott, it will probably be a bit slow and this thing uses native code elsewhere s
21:06:30 <Vorpal> so*
21:06:42 <elliott> Vorpal: ocaml's bytecode is insanely fast for bytecode
21:06:57 <Vorpal> elliott, can you mix byte and native in a single program?
21:07:06 <elliott> who knows
21:07:10 <elliott> Try it and see!
21:12:15 <elliott> pikhq: Ping.
21:13:11 <Vorpal> oh right, figured out how to build native ones
21:13:32 <Vorpal> apart from NATIVE=1 you had to set HAS_OCAMLOPT=1
21:13:37 <elliott> lawl
21:13:38 <Vorpal> which was not documented at all
21:13:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I found that only by digging in makefiles!
21:14:06 <Vorpal> elliott, is all of the ocaml world this insane?
21:14:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Well...
21:14:57 <elliott> Vorpal: People -- at least when I used OCaml -- tend to tell you to use GODI (http://godi.camlcity.org/godi/index.html).
21:15:07 <elliott> Which is Yet Another Language-Specific Package Manager except this one builds OCaml for you too.
21:15:15 <elliott> And it sucks immensely, but uh... I would go insane doing all that manually.
21:15:20 <elliott> At least GODI does it for you.
21:15:20 <coppro> I like language-specific package managers... some people don't, but I do
21:15:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well, this one is not really very standard
21:15:41 <Vorpal> elliott, or do they include every single library there?
21:15:56 <elliott> Vorpal: What library is it?
21:16:03 <Vorpal> elliott, apron again
21:16:16 <Vorpal> I'm starting to hate that library
21:16:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I had to rebuild it three times so far trying to get it sane
21:16:44 <elliott> Jc_annot_inference - [value] from source frama-c-Helium-20080701 (Score: 500)
21:16:55 * elliott searches for apron more concretely
21:16:59 <Vorpal> elliott, hm? well yes that is what I want to use it for
21:17:00 <Vorpal> indeed
21:17:08 <elliott> apps-frama-c
21:17:09 <elliott> Modular C static analyser
21:17:10 <Vorpal> but helium is old
21:17:13 <elliott> so it has frama-c and its dependencies.
21:17:21 <elliott> Vorpal: frama-c version 2010-04-01
21:17:24 <elliott> it appears
21:17:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I know, but apron is an *optional* dependency
21:17:34 <elliott> there is also apps-why
21:17:35 <Vorpal> just a feature I really really really want
21:17:36 <elliott> 2.26
21:17:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I need 2.27 :P
21:17:42 <elliott> latest is 2.27
21:17:45 <elliott> lawl
21:17:50 <Vorpal> elliott, for one of the features I want
21:17:51 <elliott> Vorpal: do you need the ultimate latest apron?
21:18:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I don't know. I got it to build now anyway. I think
21:18:09 <elliott> Vorpal: btw you don't *have* to use coq for all this apparently but it appears to be the most recommended thing by far
21:18:20 <Vorpal> and it installed the *.cmxa
21:18:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I need it for the why part
21:18:30 <Vorpal> which is what I really need
21:18:36 <elliott> One of the main features of Why is to be integrated with many existing provers (proof assistants such as Coq, PVS, Isabelle/HOL, HOL 4, HOL Light, Mizar and decision procedures such as Simplify, Alt-Ergo, Yices, Z3, CVC3, etc.).
21:18:41 <Vorpal> frama-c + why 2.27 with apron
21:19:01 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but why then does why refuse to build at all without coq?
21:19:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and it can use several side by side, trying different ones to find one able to prove something
21:19:38 <Vorpal> which is very nice
21:20:01 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:20:22 <Vorpal> checking for pvs... /sbin/pvs
21:20:22 <Vorpal> File descriptor 5 (/home/arvid/src/frama-c/why-2.27/config.log) leaked on pvs invocation. Parent PID 29670: /bin/sh
21:20:23 <Vorpal> hahaha
21:20:35 <Vorpal> elliott, it checks for pvs... only that is not the same pvs
21:20:40 <elliott> lawl
21:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, that is pvs from lvm2 btw
21:21:09 <Vorpal> configure: WARNING: PVS found but pvs -where did not work
21:21:23 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow).
21:22:07 <Vorpal> Floats : no (Coq library AllFloat.vo not found)
21:22:08 <Vorpal> but what
21:22:12 <Vorpal> I enabled floats
21:22:14 <Vorpal> when compiling coq
21:22:16 <Vorpal> -_-
21:22:37 <olsner> Vorpal: obviously you're doing it wrong
21:22:39 <elliott> Vorpal: it seems you did not enable them properly
21:22:44 <elliott> Vorpal: btw putting ocaml shit into its own directory is a sane idea
21:22:46 <elliott> /opt/ocaml say
21:22:49 <elliott> i'd say
21:22:52 <elliott> or ~/local/ocaml
21:22:54 <elliott> it's a bit... strange
21:22:56 <elliott> sometimes
21:22:58 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. I used ~/local/frama-c here
21:23:03 <Vorpal> since that is what I really care about
21:23:35 <Vorpal> elliott, and I already had to patch some hard coded "check for this in /usr/lib and /usr/lib/local" checks
21:23:52 <Vorpal> in one case the configure.in didn't want to produce a configure and I had to patch the configure directly
21:23:56 <Vorpal> which is quite painful
21:24:45 <elliott> Vorpal: once an ocaml package failed to build for me since i was on os x and it wanted gnu sed
21:24:53 <elliott> ended up linking gsed to sed, compiling, and delinking
21:25:53 <Vorpal> elliott, hah
21:26:06 <Vorpal> elliott, well, yeah... French people wtf
21:26:12 <Vorpal> (or something)
21:26:21 <elliott> *Frenchies
21:26:48 <elliott> Vorpal: what does pikhq recommend for snes emulation?
21:27:01 <Vorpal> elliott, why not ask pikhq directly?
21:27:05 <elliott> Vorpal: i tried to ping him
21:27:06 <elliott> no response
21:27:08 <elliott> (in-channel)
21:27:20 <Vorpal> elliott, probably that cycle-accurate-needs-a-monster-computer one
21:27:23 <elliott> Vorpal: yes.
21:27:24 <elliott> what's its name?
21:27:35 <Vorpal> elliott, if you don't have bleeding edge hardware I would suggest zsnes however
21:27:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't remember the name
21:27:47 <Vorpal> elliott, <some letter>snes iirc
21:27:56 <Vorpal> just go through the alphabet
21:27:57 <elliott> 1.33 ghz core 2 duo, 4 gigs ram, i'm sure i can handle it >:D
21:28:00 <Vorpal> until you find it
21:28:01 <elliott> ah bsnes
21:28:03 <Vorpal> elliott, likely tooo slow
21:28:09 <elliott> Vorpal: worth a try
21:28:14 <elliott> "The executive summary if you don't want to read my latest wall-of-text: bsnes the public project is now dead, however I will continue to develop the source code and release it periodically."
21:28:19 <Vorpal> elliott, cpu looks a bit on the weak side
21:28:25 <elliott> Vorpal: it is, but *eh*
21:28:35 <Vorpal> elliott, why is it dead
21:28:36 <elliott> "As it turns out, the problem of accuracy was not linear as I once naively believed, but exponential. That is to say, if emulating 90% of games requires 200MHz, then emulating 95% requires 400MHz, 97.5% requires 800MHz, etc. In other words, there are rapidly diminishing gains."
21:28:40 <elliott> Vorpal: tl;dr stuff
21:28:42 <elliott> http://byuu.org/articles/bsnes-future
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21:30:36 <elliott> Vorpal: but eh, personal projects are fine :P
21:30:59 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, assholes seem to be the reason
21:31:12 <elliott> [[So back to my original point about ensuring games work in the future on all emulators. Even after five years of bsnes being out there, and me preacing these virtues everywhere I could, we had the Lennus II translation in 2009. A fan translation that only ran in ZSNES.
21:31:12 <elliott> I really tried, I put my vitriol aside, stepped in, and offered to help. I offered to work on the game, without even having the ROM hack source code, to track down and fix the problem. Only to come across a post by one of the authors on another forum some weeks later essentially calling me an asshole for being pedantic about it not running anywhere else, all the while putting "accuracy" in quotes as if it was a made-up term. Talk about gratitude.
21:31:12 <elliott> When I responded, it was of course denied that he was referring to me, the only person who ever brought it up. But I wasn't born yesterday.]]
21:31:29 * Sgeo does not know whether to be happy or scared that some woman asked him for his number
21:31:38 <elliott> OH GOD PEOPLE WANT MY NUMBER
21:31:40 <elliott> she's probably a rapist.
21:31:55 <Sgeo> I never saw her before today
21:32:09 <elliott> shocking.
21:32:11 <Sgeo> I knew her for a few minutes
21:32:18 <elliott> people usually give other people their numbers after knowing them for years
21:32:23 <elliott> def. a rapist
21:33:16 <Vorpal> elliott, years is a bit on the extreme, could be months.
21:33:26 <elliott> Vorpal: it was extreme sarcasm.
21:33:27 <elliott> lol @ months
21:33:31 <elliott> lololol
21:33:55 <Vorpal> elliott, ;P
21:34:06 <elliott> oh you were joking too
21:34:09 <elliott> i thought you were actually carzy
21:34:10 <elliott> *crazy
21:34:11 <elliott> (carzy!)
21:34:41 <quintopia> luckyass fucker
21:34:42 <Vorpal> haha
21:34:52 <quintopia> maybe if i got out more..
21:34:58 <Vorpal> elliott, duh of course. Rather it could be a question of minutes if you have a reason for it.
21:35:23 <elliott> somehow i have a feeling there is a girl out there who does not have Sgeo's number
21:35:23 <Vorpal> but if a complete stranger walked up and asked for phone number I would be a bit confused
21:35:26 <elliott> (and she is all girls)
21:35:34 <quintopia> Sgeo: if she tried to grab your junk, she is probably a rapist
21:35:35 <elliott> Plural singularities!
21:35:42 <elliott> quintopia: Nice heuristic.
21:35:51 <quintopia> it's serverd me well
21:35:57 <Sgeo> elliott, there are a lot of girls who don't have my number. The girl who asked today is not one of them.
21:36:00 <quintopia> ass pinches are flirty, junk squeezing is rape
21:36:11 <elliott> "She said she was going to kidnap me, rape me, and then dissect me, barbecue me and eat the pieces. She didn't grab my junk so I gave her my address."
21:36:31 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you do if someone emails you source code, but instead of taring or zipping it up, attaches all the files separately. And there are about 20 of them
21:36:31 <Sgeo> Come to think of it, I don't know how old she is. She looks a bit older
21:36:35 <quintopia> wait, who said anything about the inverse being true?
21:36:37 <Vorpal> this is somewhat annoying
21:36:42 <elliott> Vorpal: what do they want you to do with it?
21:36:53 <Sgeo> Also, she asked at what time I'm usually at the bus stop in the morning...
21:37:00 <Sgeo> That creeped me out a bit
21:37:03 <elliott> Clearly she is going to rape you. At the bus stop.
21:37:09 <quintopia> did she ask what kind of candy you like?
21:37:27 <Sgeo> I'm going to text her soon
21:37:46 <quintopia> Sgeo's gonna get some cougartail! woot.
21:37:49 <Vorpal> elliott, well, makes sure it works I guess, it is related to a project at university. So I really need to do this, it is in my interest as well.
21:37:51 <elliott> Vorpal: ok tl;dr bsnes isn't dead he just isn't advertising it any more due to idiots
21:37:56 <elliott> Vorpal: oh
21:37:59 <elliott> Vorpal: i was going to suggest, like
21:38:15 <elliott> Vorpal: mailing back a C program that does system("firefox <last measure url>")
21:38:18 <Vorpal> elliott, it is somewhat annoying, since they aren't supposed to all go into the same directory either
21:38:23 <elliott> "I fixed your code, can you check if this binary works on your system?"
21:38:32 <elliott> Vorpal: email back and ask for the archived version
21:38:37 <elliott> if they don't immediately do so, yell at them
21:38:54 <Vorpal> hm
21:39:50 <Vorpal> and where the fuck did the makefile go...
21:40:36 <Vorpal> and I think this got windows mangled, there is a suspicious UPPPER.FOO look about filenames that would fit into the 8.3 thingy
21:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott, ^
21:41:13 <elliott> Vorpal: huh.
21:41:22 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: email back and ask for the archived version
21:41:26 <Vorpal> elliott, yes
21:41:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I did
21:41:43 <Vorpal> I was just looking further at the attachments in question
21:41:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
21:42:46 * elliott sets about compiling bsnes
21:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal:
21:42:57 <elliott> Minimum system requirements:
21:42:57 <elliott> Intel Atom, Intel Pentium IV or AMD Athlon processor
21:42:57 <elliott> 64MB RAM free
21:43:02 <Vorpal> what
21:43:04 <elliott> Vorpal: recommended is just core 2 duo / phenom
21:43:09 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
21:43:11 <elliott> i... think i'll be just fine, thank you
21:43:20 <Vorpal> hrrm
21:43:33 <elliott> Vorpal: apparently it doesn't require even 1 GHz for cycle-accurate emulation
21:43:35 <elliott> just like 800 MHz
21:43:40 <elliott> at least that's the impression i got from his long blog post
21:43:41 <elliott> when he talked about it
21:44:42 <elliott> Vorpal: ouch: "Another critical failure has been in the method of archival itself. When dumping the ROM contents alone, this discards everything else about the game. For an emulator, this means there is no PCB layout information. In other words, we don't know where to map ROM and RAM to. The current state of SNES emulation is to use extremely elaborate hacks that essentially put ROM and RAM everywhere, even though the real cartridges didn't exact
21:44:42 <elliott> ly work this way."
21:45:29 <elliott> Vorpal: ah, the new gui is his own toolkit it seems
21:45:30 <elliott> phoenix
21:45:35 <elliott> with the qt one being unmaintained
21:45:36 <olsner> wtf, how can you put "rom and ram everywhere"?
21:45:44 <elliott> olsner: "extremely elaborate hacks"
21:45:52 <elliott> [[Yes, certainly. There are 1,442 unique Super Famicom (Japan) games, 720 unique Super Nintendo (US) games, and 534 unique Super Ninteno (Europe) games. This gives us a grand total of 2,696 unique games.]]
21:45:54 <elliott> not much!
21:46:42 <Vorpal> what does "putting rom and ram everywhere" even mean?
21:47:01 <elliott> Vorpal: who knows?
21:47:02 <elliott> sounds scary.
21:47:23 <Vorpal> elliott, like, duplicating them to fill the address space? But then that surely would mess up other stuff
21:47:35 <elliott> I quote, "extremely elaborate hacks"
21:47:47 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed must be
21:47:55 <elliott> # profile-guided instrumentation
21:47:55 <elliott> # flags += -fprofile-generate
21:47:55 <elliott> # link += -lgcov
21:47:55 <elliott> # profile-guided optimization
21:47:55 <elliott> # flags += -fprofile-use
21:47:57 <elliott> just like you!
21:48:10 <Vorpal> elliott, hm?
21:48:22 <elliott> $ make -j3 ui=ui-phoenix
21:48:24 <elliott> Vorpal: insane optimisation :P
21:48:40 <elliott> ui-phoenix/general/main-window.cpp:62: error: expected primary-expression before ‘]’ token
21:48:40 <elliott> ui-phoenix/general/main-window.cpp:62: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘{’ token
21:48:40 <elliott> ui-phoenix/general/main-window.cpp:67: error: expected primary-expression before ‘[’ token
21:48:42 <elliott> times five billion
21:48:45 <elliott> lemme guess, a missing header file
21:48:52 <elliott> fuck gcc/g++ error messages fuuuuuuuuck them
21:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, actually that is quite nice when trying to find how fast it can go. I don't, and never have, used it for normal operation
21:49:04 <Vorpal> never even recommended anyone to do so
21:49:22 <elliott> systemLoadCartridge.onTick = []() {
21:49:22 <elliott> utility.loadCartridgeNormal();
21:49:22 <elliott> };
21:49:24 <elliott> is that...
21:49:25 <elliott> C++0x?
21:49:37 <elliott> cpp := $(subst cc,++,$(compiler)) -std=gnu++0x
21:49:39 <elliott> yes it fucking is. wow.
21:49:43 <olsner> not any valid form of c++ I recognize anyway
21:49:48 <elliott> I...
21:49:49 <elliott> Wow.
21:49:51 <elliott> Uh.
21:49:57 <elliott> So my g++ doesn't do C++0x, I guess.
21:50:16 <olsner> I think you need at least 4.3
21:50:21 <olsner> and probably 4.4 for some of it
21:50:27 <elliott> gcc version 4.4.5 (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.4.4-14ubuntu5)
21:50:28 <olsner> and/or 4.6 for the rest of it
21:50:51 <elliott> olsner: []() { ... } isn't exactly hard
21:51:12 <elliott> "GCC does not have lambdas in the current 4.4 version nor the in-development 4.5 version. See gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html for details of GCC's C++0x feature support – sstock Aug 5 '09 at 13:42"
21:51:13 <olsner> "Lambda expressions and closures: No"
21:51:40 <olsner> hmm, so how did someone manage to ever compile that code if there's no gcc version that supports it?
21:51:42 <elliott> olsner: but:
21:51:43 <elliott> New wording for C++0x lambdasN2927GCC 4.5
21:51:48 <elliott> olsner: also, it supports other compilers for other OSes
21:51:54 <coppro> lolol
21:51:55 <elliott> and defaults to qt
21:51:59 <elliott> which doesn't require c++0x :P
21:52:21 <elliott> oh!
21:52:23 <elliott> there's a gcc4.5 package
21:54:15 <elliott> $ make -j3 compiler=gcc-4.5 ui=ui-phoenix
21:54:17 <elliott> la de adh
21:54:18 <elliott> *dah
22:03:25 <Vorpal> elliott, wow, one program decided that the installed ocamlgraph was too old and extracted a local tarball with *the same version number*
22:03:48 <Vorpal> elliott, that is just mindblowing
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22:18:08 <Gregor> quintopia: zomg these images are SO AWESOME.
22:20:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, where?
22:20:59 <Gregor> Vorpal: The ones for webplat :P
22:21:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, also you should allow upgrades in the form of changing hats there
22:21:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, like, based on your own hat collection
22:21:14 <Gregor> ...
22:21:14 <Gregor> YES
22:21:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, based on your own, not like mario thus
22:21:55 <Gregor> Except that representing 30-odd hats in 7x4 pixels or whatever is quite a trick :P
22:22:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh good point
22:22:21 <coppro> DO NOT LET IT STOP YOU
22:22:53 <oerjan> The Adventures of Hatman
22:23:09 <cpressey> mouse over the hat to see ZOOMED HI DEF image
22:23:11 <Vorpal> $ gwhy-bin
22:23:11 <Vorpal> Computation of VCs...
22:23:12 <Vorpal> very nice
22:23:13 <Vorpal> now what
22:23:23 <Vorpal> oh, it is gwhy
22:23:26 <Vorpal> not gwhy-bin
22:23:30 <Vorpal> right
22:23:38 <Vorpal> $ gwhy
22:23:38 <Vorpal> don't know what to do with
22:23:40 <Vorpal> okay....
22:23:49 <Vorpal> well I guess it needs a parameter
22:24:06 <Vorpal> still, somewhat amusing error
22:24:20 <Vorpal> cpressey, nice idea
22:25:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, technically 30 odd hats in 7x4 should be easy:
22:25:10 <Vorpal> $ echo $(( 7*4 * 255 * 255 * 255 ))
22:25:10 <Vorpal> 464278500
22:25:13 <Vorpal> except, well
22:25:31 <Vorpal> most of them will look the same
22:25:38 <Gregor> Also, not like hats.
22:25:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, ah good point too
22:25:56 <Gregor> But luckily, I have enough pixels to wear a rainbow box on my head.
22:25:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, some will look like hair, or just EMISSINGNO
22:25:58 <Gregor> Hooray?
22:26:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, do what cpressey said then ;P
22:26:44 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway, did you put up the updates images so it is possible to test it?
22:27:35 <Gregor> Hmmm?
22:28:50 <Gregor> Ahhhh
22:28:56 <cpressey> Gregor: *Do* you own a rainbow-hat of some sort? You ought to.
22:28:59 <Gregor> I've been gone all day, didn't see 'em.
22:29:05 <Gregor> cpressey: I do not. Donations welcome.
22:30:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, any idea where to find one?
22:30:12 <Gregor> Nope.
22:30:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, what about a mushroom hat?
22:30:44 <Vorpal> (looks like the Toads in mario)
22:39:08 -!- catseye has joined.
22:43:25 <elliott> all this to play chrono trigger
22:43:54 -!- catseye has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:44:30 <elliott> Vorpal: #1 thing i hate about console emulation: having to assign keys
22:44:45 <elliott> i totally need an adapter for every console's control
22:44:55 <elliott> Gregor: just have a selection of your favourite hats for various abilities
22:45:05 <elliott> Gregor: fez could be fire, say (it's red!)
22:45:22 <oerjan> the fez comes with a magic carpet
22:47:04 <elliott> Vorpal: xD
22:47:07 <elliott> "gconftool-2 --type bool --set /desktop/gnome/interface/menus_have_icons true"
22:47:08 <elliott> -- make -n
22:47:20 <elliott> not entirely sure why it sets that :P
22:50:55 <elliott> Vorpal: have you got a chrono trigger rom? rom sites suck.
22:50:59 <elliott> (yes indeed, i've never played it.)
22:51:40 <fizzie> I could, hypothetically, you know, put one somewhere.
22:51:50 <elliott> fizzie: Hypothetically I would not hypothetically mind that.
22:51:59 <elliott> Huh, apparently the US release was made easier. Eh, who cares.
22:52:03 <elliott> I suck at games anyway.
22:53:36 <fizzie> By playing the SNES original you're missing out on a huge pile of the most boringest fetch-quests in the whole wide world. (One of the DS port additions.)
22:54:22 <elliott> fizzie: Something said that the Japanese original is harder.
22:54:36 <elliott> And there was this TOTAL RETRANSLATION that fixed it and also fixed all the Engrish which, really, why are you even playing any more?
22:54:41 <elliott> Engrish is the thing!
22:54:56 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, good, you're using BSNES, definitely the best SNES emulator.
22:55:20 <elliott> pikhq: On my memory of your recommendation!
22:55:27 <elliott> pikhq: Now let's see if it can do nice shit with 1.33 GHz.
22:55:57 <elliott> pikhq: It doesn't appear to have an option to scale the video though. That sads me, but whatever, the default size is okay.
22:56:06 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and, you do use the phoenix UI right?
22:56:07 <elliott> Not the Qt one?
22:57:02 <elliott> fizzie: Uhh, do I need L and R much to play Chrono Trigger?
22:57:05 <elliott> The amount of key bindings, they scare me.
22:57:35 <pikhq> elliott: The phoenix UI is fairly new; been using the Qt UI because that's got all the features.
22:57:44 <pikhq> The Qt UI, though, is no longer maintained.
22:58:00 <elliott> pikhq: Features are for LOSERS.
22:58:03 <pikhq> The current version of BSNES is the last version that will have it.
22:58:04 <elliott> pikhq: (What kind of features?)
22:58:12 <pikhq> Scaling the video for one. :P
22:58:12 <elliott> pikhq: It's keeping it, just not being maintained; at least according to his blawg.
22:58:16 <elliott> Maybe he posted something on the forums?
22:58:32 <pikhq> I'll probably port it to work via libsnes one of these days.
22:59:02 <elliott> pikhq: Mind, the default scaling setting seems about right.
22:59:15 <elliott> It couldn't handle another timesing and still be windowed on my screen, I don't think.
22:59:56 <fizzie> elliott: You need them to enter some "passwords", but not very many times. Something like twice. (You also will need to press L+R simultaneously at one point.)
23:00:18 <pikhq> elliott: I just use my PS3 controller for it, BTW.
23:00:21 <fizzie> And of course they're sort-of useful for flipping between characters inside the menus.
23:00:24 <elliott> pikhq: I own not a PS3.
23:00:36 <elliott> I could hook up my GameCube controller :-P
23:00:40 <fizzie> Heh, I just use my PS3 controller too, even though I own not a PS3 either.
23:00:52 <pikhq> The PS3 controller is, I've found, pretty ideal for emulation.
23:00:52 <elliott> not also own controller I PS3.
23:01:02 <elliott> Okay; up/down/left/right are...
23:01:08 <elliott> Do I want to remap them to WASD? ...Naw.
23:01:12 <elliott> ...maybe.
23:01:13 <fizzie> pikhq: It doesn't have L3/R3, though. :/
23:01:39 <pikhq> fizzie: Those are the analog stick buttons, aren't they?
23:02:03 <elliott> pikhq: Heh, I just realised that low-keyboard bindings suck for me since I don't have an arm rest...
23:02:15 <elliott> Too lazy as fuck to change them though.
23:02:24 <elliott> For my reference:
23:02:29 <elliott> BA = ZX
23:02:30 <elliott> YX = AS
23:02:33 <elliott> LR = DC
23:02:36 <elliott> ' = Select
23:02:39 <elliott> erm
23:02:40 <elliott> Select = '
23:02:44 <elliott> Start = Return
23:03:51 <elliott> Um, er, fizzie, that file you didn't give me, bsnes doesn't list it.
23:03:56 <elliott> Is .smc a specific format or something?
23:04:24 <pikhq> "Super MagiCom". One of those copier headered files.
23:04:32 <elliott> pikhq: So... no bsnes?
23:04:46 <elliott> So get another ROM basically?
23:04:57 <elliott> Sorry fizzie even your hypothetical scenarios are inadequate.
23:04:57 <pikhq> elliott: Qt UI would handle it. Buut, you don't want that ROM. It's nasty.
23:05:05 <elliott> Sorry fizzie. You're nasty.
23:05:08 <elliott> pikhq: Gimme yer ROM bitch :P
23:05:12 <elliott> Hypothetically.
23:05:17 <fizzie> Meh, all the GoodSNES files are .smc's, you know.
23:05:31 <fizzie> It's the industry standard.
23:05:33 <pikhq> fizzie: GoodSNES is a scourge.
23:05:50 <pikhq> Of the 90s.
23:05:51 <fizzie> s/scourge/easy way to get a whole pile of games/
23:05:57 <pikhq> Go for NoIntro.
23:06:17 <elliott> pikhq: Dood, I need a pointer to a ROM :P
23:06:21 <elliott> I can only find .smcs.
23:07:05 <fizzie> But that's not on my disk. So a lot more complicated.
23:07:06 <pikhq> elliott: Would you like Chrono Trigger (NTSC)(Eng)(1.0), Chrono Trigger (NTSC)(Jap)(1.0), or Chrono Trigger - Sample ROM (NTSC)(Jap)(1.0)?
23:07:18 <elliott> pikhq: I can't read Japanese, if that matters :P
23:07:31 <pikhq> elliott: So, I'll upload the English one. :)
23:07:37 <elliott> Yaaaay
23:07:44 <elliott> pikhq: Why parens with no spaces between them, what possesses people to do this ugly
23:08:01 <pikhq> Not my naming scheme.
23:08:03 <pikhq> *shrug*
23:08:14 <elliott> [[The idea that spacetime may not be entirely smooth – like a digital image that becomes increasingly pixelated as you zoom in – had been previously proposed by Stephen Hawking and others. Possible evidence for this model appeared last year in the unaccountable “noise” plaguing the GEO600 experiment in Germany, which searches for gravitational waves from black holes. To Hogan, the jitteriness suggested that the experiment had stumbled upo
23:08:14 <elliott> n the lower limit of the spacetime pixels’ resolution.]]
23:08:17 <elliott> oerjan: you heard it here first
23:08:41 <fizzie> And re L3/R3, I think the DualShock2 analog sticks are buttons labeled like that, but the DualShock3 I have doesn't report anything if I try to push them down.
23:09:12 <elliott> pikhq: The DualShock 3 is wireless, right?
23:09:20 <pikhq> And wired.
23:09:22 <fizzie> Oh, they're just *that* hard to push.
23:09:24 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but.
23:09:28 <fizzie> Never mind them, it does have those too. :p
23:09:28 <pikhq> (it has a USB port on it; you can plug it in.)
23:09:34 <elliott> pikhq: Yes... but that's uncomfortable!
23:09:39 <elliott> At least for where any computer would be.
23:09:43 <elliott> (Not so much a console.)
23:09:45 <pikhq> It uses Bluetooth.
23:09:45 <elliott> What's wireless latency like?
23:09:58 <pikhq> Not noticable.
23:10:05 <elliott> Kay. I'd just use that then.
23:10:14 <pikhq> elliott: http://filebin.ca/fqsxeb
23:10:17 <fizzie> I've been using the wireless side only with the N900, and haven't noticed any controller-related latency there.
23:10:28 <elliott> pikhq: Can I have the filenamed link? I'm a lazy ass. >_>
23:10:32 <elliott> (Or you could just tell me the filename.)
23:10:33 <fizzie> The Bluetooth pairing via USB is a bit silly though.
23:10:35 <pikhq> http://filebin.ca/fqsxeb/ChronoTriggerNTSCEng1.0.sfc
23:10:47 <elliott> pikhq: The filenames aren't in the naming scheme???
23:10:57 <pikhq> Filebin stripped stuff out.
23:10:58 <elliott> Way to have a pointless naming scheme, hero :P
23:11:06 <elliott> pikhq: "Chrono Trigger (NTSC)(Eng)(1.0).sfc", then?
23:11:10 <pikhq> Yup.
23:11:50 <pikhq> And BTW, I have the entire set of FDS, Gameboy, Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advance, NES, SNES, and N64 ROMs for games that were *actually put on a cartridge at some point*.
23:12:02 <elliott> pikhq: Is the sound actually that glitchy-sounding, or do I have a stupid PulseAudio problem?
23:12:07 <quintopia> Gregor: Even in 2D, people can't reverse direction on a dime (on land...in the air, they have the ability to push off air molecules to provide infinite impulse), and as such, they must do a deceleration slide before taking off the other way.
23:12:13 <pikhq> elliott: Problem of some sort.
23:12:26 <elliott> pikhq: Joooy
23:12:28 <quintopia> To this end, I present you with sliderl2r.png, which gives a rare glimpse of your face: http://imgur.com/Z4IwY
23:12:30 <pikhq> elliott: What video driver is it using?
23:12:40 <elliott> pikhq: SDL.
23:12:41 <pikhq> elliott: It matters greatly.
23:12:45 <elliott> I can also use X11 or OpenGL.
23:12:49 <pikhq> elliott: Try OpenGL.
23:13:07 <elliott> pikhq: Not X?
23:13:19 <pikhq> It'll do software scaling. And be slow.
23:13:22 <elliott> audio is set to pulseaudio; maybe the default ALSA is the best even when using ShitAudio.
23:13:32 <elliott> Input = SDL should be fine I asume
23:13:42 <pikhq> Should be.
23:13:51 <oerjan> elliott: um i'm pretty vaguely sure i've already seen it somewhere, possibly it was on reddit before
23:14:02 <elliott> pikhq: Audio: PulseAudio, OpenAL, OSS, PulseAudio, PulseAudioSimple, libao
23:14:07 <elliott> I have PulseAudio. WhaddoIdo :P
23:14:10 <elliott> oerjan: that article was, I meant
23:14:14 <elliott> oerjan: we talked about rounding errors in physics
23:14:16 <pikhq> I dunno.
23:15:07 <elliott> pikhq: Do I want both synchronise video and synchronise audio on?
23:15:18 <elliott> Only the latter was on in the default config.
23:19:35 <elliott> Vorpal: http://byuu.org/images/bsnes_20100814.png
23:19:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Okay, so basically, you only need a super-fast computer if you go with the 100% accuracy profile.
23:19:56 -!- An7iVi2uS has joined.
23:20:12 <elliott> pikhq: Probably worth recompiling the Qt UI, isn't it?
23:20:15 <elliott> *with the
23:20:25 <oerjan> An7iVi2uS: your spelling is no match for my tab complete
23:21:10 <oerjan> i mean, hi
23:22:53 <elliott> pikhq: Do I want the compatibility or performance profile?
23:24:39 <An7iVi2uS> ?
23:24:46 -!- An7iVi2uS has left (?).
23:24:48 <elliott> An7iVi2uS: we're all racists here! of glorious matter convert.
23:24:54 <elliott> cool oerjan can't even slap me for being weird to the newbie
23:24:55 <elliott> he's gone
23:25:10 <elliott> <oerjan> SEE IF I CAN'T *kickban*
23:25:23 <oerjan> all racists? i didn't even _mention_ him connecting from israel
23:25:30 <elliott> i didn't either
23:25:33 <elliott> in fact i only noticed it after typing that
23:25:38 <elliott> and didn't care
23:25:50 <elliott> i was just being incomprehensible. as always
23:26:08 <oerjan> of course Slereah has monopoly on such jokes here, that filthy jew.
23:26:20 <elliott> pikhq: Gah, it doesn't correct aspect ratio by default.
23:26:22 <elliott> pikhq: How evil.
23:26:59 <elliott> pikhq: So, uh, is Qt-Raster any good?
23:28:52 <oerjan> what the heck is "glorious matter convert" anyway
23:28:59 * oerjan googles
23:29:17 <elliott> oerjan: i made it up.
23:29:27 <elliott> although: great name for a band
23:29:31 <elliott> The Glorious Matter Convert
23:29:42 <oerjan> not a frequently used phrase, i detect
23:29:56 -!- augur has joined.
23:33:36 <elliott> "Directer"
23:37:28 <Vorpal> night →
23:39:26 <pikhq> elliott: Qt-Raster is shitty.
23:39:31 <elliott> pikhq: Okay.
23:39:51 <pikhq> elliott: Performance works quite well, but introduces bugs in a very small handful of games.
23:40:06 <pikhq> ... That hardly anybody even cares about.
23:40:14 <elliott> pikhq: Right now I'm just thinking "Kitten has no shitty sound systems".
23:40:22 <elliott> Does PulseAudio even run on non-Linux?
23:40:43 <elliott> Oh joy, it does.
23:40:46 <elliott> Well, I won't package it.
23:40:46 <elliott> Ever.
23:40:48 <elliott> And that's a promise.
23:41:11 <pikhq> Even if it manages to stop sucking?
23:41:24 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:42:00 <pikhq> Admittedly, this is about as likely as my being teleported 2 feet to the left.
23:42:11 <elliott> pikhq: Even if it stops sucking.
23:42:22 <elliott> There's another sound system that doesn't suck and it's called everything that isn't PulseAudio.
23:42:58 <Gregor> quintopia: OK, I added the new frames.
23:43:05 <Gregor> quintopia: I can't seem to formulate an opinion, so make your own :P
23:43:24 <Gregor> quintopia: Err, sorry, only the new jumping and falling frames, not crouching or turning.
23:44:13 <quintopia> but how can you jump forcefully without crouching first?
23:44:20 <elliott> video.windowed.hwFilter = 0^M
23:44:20 <elliott> video.windowed.swFilter = 0^M
23:44:20 <pikhq> elliott: How do you feel about JACK?
23:44:21 <elliott> pikhq: ? :P
23:44:33 <elliott> pikhq: JACK is uh, I have no problem with it although apparently it's a bitch and... why do you need it?
23:44:42 <elliott> It has low latency.
23:44:44 <elliott> ...So does OSS.
23:44:47 <pikhq> elliott: I was honestly just wondering about your opinion on it.
23:44:52 <elliott> pikhq: I was speaking hypothetically.
23:44:52 <pikhq> That's seriously *it*.
23:45:02 <elliott> i.e. an arbitrary "you"
23:45:06 <pikhq> Ah.
23:45:29 <pikhq> Well, JACK lets you do this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Jack-connecting_audio.png
23:45:32 <pikhq> :P
23:45:39 <elliott> As far as I can tell, JACK is what you use when you use ALSA and thus your latency sucks :P
23:45:42 <elliott> ...plus that.
23:45:47 <elliott> I mean, use it if you want, I won't begrudge you :P
23:48:09 <elliott> pikhq: God, PulseAudio just ... sucks.
23:48:19 <elliott> I... it literally makes good audio impossible.
23:49:14 <elliott> The following packages will be REMOVED:
23:49:14 <elliott> indicator-sound{a} libcanberra-pulse{a} pulseaudio{p}
23:49:14 <elliott> pulseaudio-esound-compat{a} pulseaudio-module-bluetooth{a}
23:49:14 <elliott> pulseaudio-module-gconf{a} pulseaudio-module-x11{a} ubuntu-desktop{a}
23:49:14 <elliott> 0 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 8 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
23:49:15 <elliott> Need to get 0B of archives. After unpacking 3,858kB will be freed.
23:49:17 <elliott> Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]
23:49:19 <elliott> pikhq: Do I fucking do it?
23:49:22 <pikhq> Hmm. Seems that the only real options out there are JACK and PulseAudio for something with an audio *server*. Aaaand JACK seems to be the only usable one.
23:49:49 <pikhq> And since there's not many reasons to use JACK, clearly OSS is the only sound system.
23:50:23 <elliott> pikhq: Do I fucking do it?
23:50:48 <pikhq> elliott: YES
23:51:02 <elliott> pikhq: But dude, my volume control.
23:51:31 <elliott> http://0pointer.de/lennart/lennart.png <-- needs anal raping so he can know what horrors he has unleashed upon the world
23:51:37 <elliott> DAAAMN YOUUUU
23:52:05 <elliott> "Thanks to PulseAudio, the Linux audio experience is becoming more context-aware. For example, if a video is running in one application the system should now automatically reduce the volume of everything else and increase it when the video is finished."
23:52:07 <elliott> Well it doesn't.
23:52:08 <elliott> So fuck you.
23:52:40 <Sgeo> Sound system wars1
23:52:41 <Sgeo> !
23:52:43 <elliott> [[However, the future of PCM audio is floating points. Mixing them in kernel space is problematic because (at least on Linux) FP in kernel space is a no-no. Also, the kernel people made clear more than once that maths/decoding/encoding like this should happen in userspace. Quite honestly, doing the mixing in kernel space is probably one of the primary reasons why I think that OSS4 is a bad idea. The fancier your mixing gets (i.e. including resamp
23:52:44 <elliott> ling, upmixing, downmixing, DRC, ...) the more difficulties you will have to move such a complex, time-intensive code into the kernel.]]
23:52:46 <elliott> pikhq: Translation:
23:53:02 <elliott> pikhq: "I'm not as good at programming kernel code as the OSSv4 developers, so clearly you should use PulseAudio instead."
23:53:09 <elliott> "OSS4 does a lot of signal processing (resampling, mixing) in the kernel. That is a big no-no, it's verboten in the Linux world."
23:53:11 <elliott> Fuck you it works well.
23:53:15 <elliott> "The kernel is supposed to include drivers, not processing algorithms."
23:53:23 <elliott> The kernel is supposed to not suck, too. It doesn't.
23:53:31 <elliott> "In its current form OSS4 would have exactly zero chance to even be considered by the Linux kernel people."
23:53:41 <elliott> Other things that have zero chance of being considered by Linux kernel people: Sanity
23:53:48 <elliott> "If you'd rip out all the mixing, resampling, conversion, remapping then not much would be left of OSS4, except that a slightly updated OSS3 API."
23:53:58 <elliott> Whereas with PulseAudio, if you removed all the suck, you'd have a README. If that.
23:54:04 <elliott> "Then, the driver support in ALSA these days is actually much better than OSS4 since a lot of hw manufacturers nowadays work with the Linux community to improve the in-kernel drivers."
23:54:08 <elliott> So since ALSA is so great, use PulseAudio.
23:54:12 <elliott> "OSS4 doesn't have that advantage."
23:54:16 <elliott> I am high as a kite.
23:54:21 <elliott> pikhq: I will stop now but RRRRGH
23:55:14 <elliott> pikhq: http://cdn.idg.com.au/gim/id/20602/res/18 dear god a little kid owns my linux sound system
23:55:20 <elliott> why can't it be a competent little kid, like me
23:55:36 <elliott> I hereby reassign my obligatory I am high as a kite quote.
23:55:38 <elliott> "It's pretty obvious that the complaints and criticisms about PulseAudio you can hear in some forums are not really shared by the vast majority of technical people"
23:55:38 <cpressey> drivers ARE processing algorithms JEEZ
23:55:40 <elliott> I am high as a kite.
23:56:01 <elliott> ("Translation of ... to Plain English" articles are, by law, required to translate at least one quote to "I am high as a kite.")
23:56:27 <pikhq> elliott: That's... Pretty damned ridiculous.
23:56:40 <elliott> pikhq: ITT: NetBSD
23:56:46 <elliott> Less users, less crazy!
23:56:51 <pikhq> elliott: Isn't mixing closer to the actual output significantly better?
23:56:59 <elliott> pikhq: but dude, Linux is a kernel of PURITY
23:57:05 <cpressey> oh yeah real pure
23:57:14 <cpressey> so pure it gets me high as a kite
23:57:17 <elliott> before every commit, Torvalds prints out the diff
23:57:19 <elliott> eats it
23:57:24 <elliott> and then, when he feels the need to shit
23:57:27 <elliott> he gets a blanket
23:57:33 <elliott> and he shits out a pure brick of light
23:57:41 <elliott> he then flattens this brick with a rolling pin
23:57:44 <elliott> and scans it
23:57:55 <elliott> then he uses an algorithm to convert this pure fecal brick of light back into a diff
23:57:58 <elliott> and commits that
23:58:02 <elliott> this is why Linux is perfect
23:58:19 <elliott> because of Linus Torvalds' digestive system and anus
23:58:37 <pikhq> http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/06/state-of-sound-in-linux-not-so-sorry.html
23:58:38 <elliott> pikhq: ok totally removing pulseaudio
23:58:40 <elliott> my system will break now
23:58:58 <pikhq> I love how going from libalsa to kernel-level ALSA has the highest latency always.
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