←2010-11-02 2010-11-03 2010-11-04→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:11 <Mathnerd314> *unix* software begins to mature. everything else just keeps on growing
00:00:32 <pikhq> And PCC's one of the most UNIX programs out there.
00:00:36 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ...pcc is a unix program
00:00:45 <Mathnerd314> yeah... :p
00:00:54 <pikhq> It was written for AT&T UNIX!
00:00:55 <elliott> Mathnerd314: It was developed at Bell Labs on Unix in the 70s, the heyday of Unix.
00:01:02 <elliott> It shipped with the original BSD.
00:01:09 <elliott> It only got replaced with gcc in BSD in 1994.
00:01:21 <elliott> It was unmaintained for a while but now it's been picked up again and ported to modern systems, and it's quite C99 compliant too.
00:01:36 <elliott> It's also packaged in NetBSD core (not pkgsrc) and OpenBSD.
00:01:40 <elliott> And it can built OpenBSD's kernel.
00:02:10 <Gregor> Also, it tastes like butterflies.
00:03:00 <elliott> Gregor: So, you pretty much support Debian in everything they do right?
00:03:18 <Gregor> Pretty much. Not always. X-P
00:03:27 <elliott> Gregor: So I take it you use GNOME :)
00:03:35 <Gregor> XFCE
00:03:48 <Gregor> Also, for a distro like Debian, having a default is almost meaningless :P
00:04:06 <pikhq> I can't say I blame Gregor. They are probably the least terrible binary distro out there for general use.
00:04:24 <Sgeo> Who is they?
00:05:17 <pikhq> Debian.
00:06:43 <elliott> pikhq: NO KITTEN
00:06:47 <elliott> (There is no kitten :( )
00:08:15 <pikhq> There is only Zuul.
00:08:41 <Gregor> Welp, Indiana senate went red. Wooooh.
00:09:35 <elliott> Gregor: HA HA
00:09:40 <pikhq> Here's hoping that doesn't become a trend.
00:09:53 <pikhq> Don't need another economic crash.
00:10:40 <Gregor> Well, Indiana barely went blue last time.
00:11:05 <elliott> TEXAS WENT BLUE
00:11:12 <elliott> (Note: This will never, ever happen)
00:11:24 <elliott> What would the fancy map colourers do if a third party won?
00:11:35 <Gregor> Kentucky stayed red (SHOCK!)
00:11:38 <elliott> "And California went.... ... um ... Orange!"
00:11:46 <Gregor> elliott: Usu. yellow or green.
00:12:00 <elliott> Gregor: Usually? Does it happen often? :P
00:12:23 <Gregor> elliott: There are two "independent" senators and a few independent or third-party representatives.
00:13:21 <Gregor> "Independent" != "third-party"
00:13:25 <pikhq> Then maybe we'd develop a parliament.
00:13:29 <Gregor> X-D
00:13:42 <elliott> Nth-party
00:13:52 <elliott> You know what I mean
00:14:13 <Gregor> Independent isn't a party. Independent is not-registered-as-any-party.
00:14:21 <Gregor> Third parties never win in the senate :P
00:14:41 <Gregor> Independents are just democrats or republicans minus the title :P
00:17:05 <Gregor> OH BOY, according to the Guardian, Kentucky went republican->tea party!
00:18:03 <pikhq> Gregor: With 4% of the vote counted.
00:18:15 <Gregor> pikhq: Yeahyeahyeah :P
00:19:15 <Quadlex> Speaking of esoteric things, what's the most esoteric channel you're on, on 'Node?
00:19:24 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll vote in the primaries next time
00:19:32 <Sgeo> Try to support someone who has a chance of winning
00:19:49 <Sgeo> *cough* F U Howard Kudler *cough*
00:20:11 <pikhq> Gregor: 4% of the vote counted and the Democrat has a 10% lead.
00:20:29 <Gregor> pikhq: I'm trusting Guardian :P
00:20:46 <Sgeo> Mr. Kudler couldn't find an editor, could he?
00:20:59 <Sgeo> "If your Congressman fails to keep the economy strong, sides with the big banks, and foreign energy companies, and fails vote for programs to bring businesses, jobs and employment to Nassau and Suffolk Counties. The FIRE him! "
00:21:07 <elliott> <Quadlex> Speaking of esoteric things, what's the most esoteric channel you're on, on 'Node?
00:21:11 <elliott> Umm... #esoteric
00:21:24 <Sgeo> "Does our current Congressman vote for the interests of People of Long Island, Or are his actions guided by his party and his own personal interest in America "
00:21:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: And vote for the guy who will do all that ONLY MORE.
00:21:35 <elliott> Gregor: Trusting the Guardian's first story -- EXCELLENT IDEA
00:21:35 <Gregor> I'm gonna go with ##0x50000000
00:21:45 <Sgeo> pikhq, right now I'm more raging at the .. lack of a copyeditor
00:21:46 <Gregor> That's the most esoteric channel I'm on.
00:22:15 <Quadlex> Really? In terms of 'Node's 'purpose', mine is either #cooking or #gaygeeks
00:22:44 <Gregor> Both of those should be ## channels :P
00:22:46 <olsner> elliott: I've mentioned this language before, I could summarize it as an imperative language with modules and a type system that is not as raped as C's
00:22:56 <elliott> olsner: Oh, that M++ thing
00:22:59 <elliott> olsner: No?
00:23:08 <Quadlex> Gregor: They are
00:23:10 <olsner> well, the successor of that thing
00:23:15 <elliott> Right.
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00:24:15 <Gregor> Quadlex: Neither appear to be.
00:25:16 <Quadlex> They've got redirects
00:27:20 <elliott> <Gregor> Both of those should be ## channels :P
00:27:21 <elliott> So should #esoteric
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00:27:56 <Sgeo> No, this is the official channel for the esoteric programming language Esoteric
00:27:57 <pikhq> elliott: Not so. This is the official channel of the esolangs.org wiki.
00:27:58 <pikhq> elliott: :P
00:28:09 <elliott> pikhq: Which doesn't own esoteric :P
00:28:22 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: what is Zuul? I heard it in a song and never found it.
00:28:26 <pikhq> elliott: KAJ ĈU VI HAVAS PUNKTON?
00:28:36 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: ... You must watch Ghostbusters. Nao.
00:28:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Ghostbuster
00:28:38 <olsner> elliott: one of these days I might write something about the new thing...
00:28:39 <elliott> s
00:28:46 <elliott> olsner: Thing some thing about thing thing.
00:29:56 <olsner> the new thing is called m3: m stands for module, I think, and 3 because I believe it's the third attempt at making something of this vague idea
00:30:10 <elliott> olsner: Modula-3 hates your guts :P
00:30:28 <olsner> yeah, I suspect it's taken a hundred times over already
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00:31:03 <elliott> olsner: Modula-3 is hardly some random name-taker :)
00:31:13 <olsner> I won't use jonguilexiphonaugh for this project either, that name should have an esolang
00:32:08 <Sgeo> So, Gregor knows something insane about me
00:32:19 <Sgeo> Um, that I haven't said here, I mean
00:32:29 <pikhq> Ah. I was about to say...
00:34:21 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official tech support channel for Esoteric | Homepage: http://esoteric.sourceforge.net/ | Spec: http://esoteric.sourceforge.net/esoteric_spec.pdf | Repository (Mercurial): http://bitbucket.org/esoteric/stable | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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00:35:25 -!- elliott has set topic: Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor, Hermetic Brotherhood of Light, Rosicrucianism, magick, gnosticism etc. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:35:54 <elliott> Never before has a topic been such a pack of lies :P
00:36:32 <olsner> doesn't seem too far off to me
00:36:33 <elliott> <Sgeo> So, Gregor knows something insane about me
00:36:33 <elliott> <Sgeo> Um, that I haven't said here, I mean
00:36:35 <elliott> WHAT IS IT GREGOR TELL US
00:36:58 <Gregor> Sgeo is a serial rapist.
00:37:11 <Sgeo> ^^not it and not true
00:37:14 <elliott> Knew it.
00:37:18 <elliott> Sgeo: Don't lie.
00:37:32 <olsner> Gregor: this being the support channel for serial rapists, isn't everyone?
00:37:36 <elliott> I like how Sgeo thinks that people will think the idea of him being a serial rapist is plausible enough that he has to deny it :)
00:38:54 <Gregor> Sorry, I misspoke.
00:38:56 <Gregor> He's a CEREAL rapist.
00:38:57 <Sasha> fine time to pop in
00:39:45 <elliott> Sasha: It's okay, we're just talking about rape.
00:41:00 <Sasha> eh
00:41:11 <Sasha> I have never participated in usch activities
00:41:14 <Sasha> such*
00:41:45 <Sgeo> You never participated in talking?
00:41:47 <olsner> it's about time you start talking then :)
00:42:01 <Mathnerd314> I wish I was better at multitasking, so I could simultaneously code, listen to your banal talk, and do my homework too
00:42:18 <Mathnerd314> but my screen is too small, or something
00:43:10 <Mathnerd314> and cloning is far away
00:44:47 <Mathnerd314> ideas?
00:46:48 <olsner> skip homework :) if you stick to just coding and "listen"ing to our banal talk should be within your capacity, shouldn't it?
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00:50:18 <olsner> hmm, it seems that the more tired I am, the harder it is for me to go to bed in time
00:51:08 <olsner> I guess self-control deteriorates more quickly than I grow physically tired or something like that
00:51:31 <Mathnerd314> alternately I could skip your banal talk and do the homework and code
00:51:47 <Mathnerd314> olsner: probably your sleep schedule doesn't match what your body thinks it should be
00:52:00 <olsner> of course it doesn't
00:52:37 <Mathnerd314> why? eliminate all those activities with strict times
00:54:10 <olsner> well, I want to get to work before lunch so that I can have lunch
00:54:40 <Mathnerd314> what? on weekends I never get up before ~1 pm
00:55:28 <olsner> today is not a weekend, nor is tomorrow
00:56:05 <Mathnerd314> but... sleep is more productive than working
00:58:38 <elliott> Goodnight; bye.
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00:58:47 <Sgeo> Rand Paul won
00:58:50 <Mathnerd314> bye - have fun with distro
01:00:06 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: any relation (at all) to Ayn Rand?
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01:02:59 <Sgeo> Um, I think Rand is libertarian, so philisophically, I think
01:03:28 <Mathnerd314> ok :-)
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02:18:40 <Gregor> So far this map is lookin' awfully red.
02:20:47 <Gregor> Election Alert: Fox News Projects GOP Wins Control of House :P
02:23:56 <Sgeo> I guess my vote for that K guy wasn't too helpful
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02:24:46 <MALDEK> k
02:25:19 <Sgeo> MALDEK, who are you? Are you a regular here?
02:26:27 <pikhq> Gregor: The GOP is projected by most everyone to be red.
02:26:41 <Gregor> ...................
02:26:42 <pikhq> Gregor: But it looks like the Dems will have a narrow majority in the Senate.
02:26:52 <Gregor> <pikhq> Gregor: The GOP is projected by most everyone to be red.
02:26:54 <pikhq> Gregor: ... HOUSE. NOT GOP,
02:27:03 <Gregor> pikhq: Reread that like a billion times :P
02:27:18 <MALDEK> sgeo....non reg
02:27:26 <pikhq> Gregor: But anyways. Deadlock!
02:27:56 <Gregor> House is useless and the senate has deadlocked enough as-is X-P
02:28:37 <MALDEK> sgeo....btw...who are you?
02:28:40 <Sgeo> MALDEK, to give you the quick rundown: This is obstentially about computer science topics, not magic topics
02:28:49 <Sgeo> I am Sgeo.
02:29:05 <pikhq> They're likely to get rid of the filibuster in the Senate rules.
02:29:40 <MALDEK> sgeo...yes....thanx for the hint....let me see what happens...lol
02:29:40 <Sgeo> Constantly humbled by the sheer intellect displayed in this channel.
02:29:59 <Sgeo> See what happens...?
02:30:41 <Gregor> pikhq: That'd be nice, but we'll see :P
02:30:55 <MALDEK> sgeo...yes....i regard the screen at the moment as a nice random generator....i like th eglance at those systems while relaxing
02:31:36 <Ilari> Ah, politics, the first of three levels of "higher" flamewars.
02:31:49 <pikhq> Gregor: Revising the rules of order at the beginning of a session requires a simple majority.
02:32:00 <Sgeo> Please tell me that MALDEK is real. No one else is responding to em.
02:32:12 <Sgeo> I'm not hallucinating you, am I MALDEK?
02:32:16 <pikhq> Sgeo: The M-DALEK is real.
02:32:50 <pikhq> Gregor: Erm, not session. Term.
02:32:58 <Gregor> pikhq: Bloody nonsense :P
02:33:02 <MALDEK> sgeo...what is the qualification of a valid answer?
02:33:51 <MALDEK> would that be a case of split personlity?
02:34:09 <MALDEK> your alter ego is logged in the terminal
02:34:15 <MALDEK> lol
02:35:35 * Sgeo points at MALDEK and shouts at pikhq and Gregor. "Can't you see em?!"
02:35:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: 無
02:36:01 <MALDEK> sgeo....?
02:36:19 <Gregor> Sgeo: Who?
02:36:27 <Sgeo> XChat's notification thing displayed the character correctly, XChat did not
02:37:08 <pikhq> e'kusutiȳa'to warui nã.
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02:38:59 <Sgeo> :(
02:42:55 <pikhq> Wow. The governor race here is a race between the Democrats and the American Constitution party.
02:45:18 <Sgeo> American Constitution party?
02:45:36 <Sgeo> Um
02:45:45 <Sgeo> For a Constitution party, it seems rather Christian
02:46:13 <pikhq> The Republicans in that race are just hoping to not be a write-in next time.
02:48:12 <Gregor> The Constitution is a joke.
02:48:25 <Gregor> Erm
02:48:27 <Gregor> X-D
02:48:31 <Gregor> I'll just stick with that, actually.
02:48:40 <Gregor> (Read: Constitution PARTY :P )
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02:51:31 <Sgeo> They literally have no concept of the meaning of religious freedom
02:52:15 <ais523> hmm, here's an esoproblem: an online game (Kingdom of Loathing) added a macro language, but it had a crazy bug, and I'm trying to figure out what was going on
02:53:29 <ais523> "sub f while !times 2 use spices endwhile endsub while !times 4 call f endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 4 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 4 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile" use spices 4, 3, 19, 5 times respectively
02:53:38 <ais523> someone needs to figure out the semantics of this and make it an esoprogram
02:53:43 <ais523> *esolang
02:54:10 <ais523> unfortunately, they fixed the bug, so no further experimentation is possible
03:02:12 <Sgeo> Were you able to talk to anyone else who experienced it?
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03:03:27 <Sgeo> Hi Grizly
03:04:27 <Grizly> Hey
03:10:12 <ais523> Sgeo: no, that's all the info I have to go on
03:10:26 <ais523> and I'm really interested in what the semantics of the bug were
03:10:32 <Sgeo> Can you ask the devs?
03:10:55 <ais523> not this long after the event, this was back in April
03:11:08 <ais523> besides, it's a fun programming problem to think of a plausible bug that would make /that/ happen
03:12:51 <Sgeo> ais523, aww
03:13:05 <Sgeo> Ask them to generate more examples! </crazy>
03:13:13 <Sgeo> Surely they use version control
03:14:20 <ais523> Sgeo: it's an MMO
03:14:25 <ais523> you can't roll back to a previous version...
03:14:32 <ais523> well, in theory you could, but everyone would go mad
03:14:46 <Sgeo> How well compartmentalized is the code?
03:15:52 <ais523> Sgeo: it's an MMO, the source code to the interp for that isn't public
03:16:13 <Sgeo> So you don't know if there's a chance
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03:19:34 <ais523> I think it's pretty likely that the interp for the above language was deterministic, though
03:20:43 <Sgeo> So is a sequence that begins 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
03:20:47 <Sgeo> Then the next number is 42
03:21:00 <Sgeo> Although I guess we could guess what sort of bugs are likely
03:22:05 <ais523> at least the second and fourth examples show a sort of pattern
03:25:27 <Gregor> I'm watching three maps: Guardian, CBS and FOX.
03:25:34 <Gregor> (To cover the whole spectrum :P )
03:25:41 <Gregor> FOX's is currently the bluest (huh?)
03:26:11 <Gregor> It's called Colorado and Pennsylvania for the Democrats, which the others haven't.
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03:56:34 <pikhq> Gregor: I strongly hope Colorado is blue.
03:56:45 <pikhq> Because Ken Buck is *positively crazy*.
03:56:59 <Gregor> If FOX has already called it for the dems, I'm thinkin' it goes blue :P
03:57:12 <pikhq> It's a very close race.
03:57:27 <pikhq> *Aaaah* I see what's happening.
03:57:32 <pikhq> The Republican vote is split.
03:58:10 <Gregor> Yeah, none of my sites make it look all that close :P
04:02:12 <Sgeo> Hey, now maybe both parties will be on board with changing how voting works
04:02:42 <Sgeo> Since here the suckiness hurts the Republican-like parties, and in the past, it hurt Democrat-like parties
04:02:46 <Sgeo> (I think)
04:03:08 <Sgeo> Tune in next election cycle for more "Wishful Thinking" with Sgeo Comet.
04:05:07 <Gregor> Third parties have always hurt both parties, but nobody's willing to change to a system that would potentially allow any other party to win.
04:05:32 <Gregor> Right now we have two centrist parties, both of which are mind-bogglingly terrible in their own ways :P
04:05:55 <Gregor> If you had something like runoff voting (and people understood it), there would be a potential for other parties to win.
04:06:09 <Gregor> Then we'd have actual political heterogeneity.
04:06:14 <Gregor> That'd break EVERYTHING.
04:08:14 <Sgeo> But those other parties would be at least sometimes allied with the main parties
04:08:31 <Sgeo> Otherwise, vote splitting wouldn't affect primarily one party
04:09:28 <Sgeo> Maybe, if the Tea Party sticks around, the Republicans will see it as advantageous to have a separate Tea Party coexisting with them
04:09:37 <Sgeo> Avoid O'Donnell situations in the future
04:10:03 <Sgeo> Because then O'Donnel could run concurrently with the hypothetical sane GOP candidate
04:10:25 <Sgeo> Grah, I'm actually rooting for Republicans to push for something that would have helped Republicans?
04:28:58 <pikhq> Ooooh fuck. So, the House can do subpoenas. Meaning that the Republicans willl enact a witchhunt.
04:29:19 <pikhq> On the other hand, that will really hurt elections in 2 years.
04:29:40 <pikhq> "The Republicans were nuts, just like they claimed to be. Don't vote for the fuckers again."
04:29:44 <Sgeo> subpoenas of who for what?
04:30:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Entire Obama administration, to be annoying.
04:32:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: Remember, these are the bastards who impeached Clinton for failure to keep it in his pants.
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04:35:19 <Sgeo> Wasn't it supposedly about lying about keeping it in his pans?
04:35:21 <Sgeo> *pants
04:35:39 <Sgeo> Then again, whether he kept it in his pants or not should never have come up for discussion in the first place
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05:37:44 <evincar> Hi all.
05:39:28 <Gregor> Apparently in an era when sit-com married couples slept in separate beds, Rocky and Bullwinkle slept together.
05:47:40 <evincar> Gregor: Further evidence that furries have been around forever.
05:47:57 <evincar> Get it? "Fur"ther?
05:48:04 <evincar> Furever.
05:48:06 <Gregor> ....
05:48:10 <evincar> Derp.
05:49:14 <Gregor> Of course, this show also has Dudley Do-Right, with Nell in love with Dudley's horse :P
05:49:19 <Gregor> So I guess I can't say much :P
05:51:42 <evincar> Gregor: Exactly. They're everywhere.
05:51:51 <evincar> Not that it's necessarily so bad. I mean, the vast majority of furries are just people who like to draw or write.
05:52:18 <evincar> And we probably wouldn't have any of the classic animated films that we do today if it weren't for anthropomorphic animal characters.
05:53:53 <Gregor> X-D
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06:06:02 <pikhq> WHY GOD WHY.
06:08:55 <Gregor> ..........???
06:09:27 <pikhq> Gregor: Ken Buck.
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06:30:04 <evincar> pikhq: Never trust anyone whose name matches /en B.ck/.
06:30:30 <evincar> Excuse me, /en+ B.ck/.
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06:49:20 <pikhq> I think the US needs conquering.
06:49:38 <Gregor> By who? Everybody's just as fucked-up, we're just louder about it :P
06:49:39 <pikhq> How does Norway feel about conquest?
06:53:47 <evincar> pikhq: Let me know in advance so I can mosey on over to Canada before it hits the fan.
06:54:34 <pikhq> evincar: Perhaps Canada should conquer. Though they'd be too polite about it.
06:54:44 <pikhq> "Could we please take over, eh?"
06:54:52 <evincar> pikhq: Not the Québécois.
06:55:02 <evincar> They'd be just as impolite as they pleased.
06:55:26 <pikhq> Yeah, but they're trying hard to be a seperate country.
06:56:39 <Gregor> Oy, if Canada took over, everything would end up written in English, French and Spanish.
06:56:43 <evincar> pikhq: Every once in a while it gets farther than it ought to, and Canada says "you can be a country when you take your share of the national debt".
06:57:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Isn't it already?
06:57:38 <Gregor> No. No it isn't :P
06:57:47 <Gregor> Here in AMERICA we speak AMERICAN (English) X-P
06:58:12 <pikhq> It's fairly common to add French so they can distribute to Canada easily, and Spanish for the sake of Hispanics...
07:01:36 <Gregor> Looks like no marijuana for California!
07:01:36 <Gregor> HA!
07:04:06 <pikhq> The dealers will be very happy about that.
07:08:51 * Gregor appeals to the horribly-obvious slippery-slope argument:
07:08:57 <Gregor> The dealers of cocaine, on the other hand, won't be.
07:39:43 <evincar> Gregor: This came up last night: what's your accent like?
07:39:56 <evincar> pikhq: You too, if you weren't around.
07:40:04 <evincar> I honestly don't remember right now. :P
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09:38:09 <coppro> http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Oklahoma_"Sharia_Law_Amendment",_State_Question_755_(2010)
09:38:12 <coppro> WHAT THE HELL
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12:06:37 <MALDEK> good afternoon
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12:51:07 <Vorpal> netsplit?
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14:15:22 <fizzie> Hard to say.
14:15:36 <Vorpal> hm
14:15:49 <fizzie> Possibly just a single-server glitch that didn't actually cause it to splat.
14:15:59 <Vorpal> ITYM split?
14:16:15 <fizzie> No, I think splat's funnier.
14:17:20 <fizzie> Grumble grumble Rademacher complexity.
14:18:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, rademacher?
14:19:01 <fizzie> I don't know what it is or how it works, but I'm supposed to present this machine learning paper in tomorrow's seminar course thing, and they waste half of their pages in a theoretical analysis of the Rademacher complexity of their method, so it must be something important.
14:20:23 <fizzie> It's some sort of "here's a class of functions, how complicated they are" measure; they're using it to show that the class of functions their optimization thingie can find is less complex than some alternatives, so their thing should generalize better.
14:20:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, interesting
14:23:28 <fizzie> The definition goes \hat{R}_\ell(\mathcal{F}} = \mathbb{E}_\sigma \left[ \sup_{f \in \mathcal{F}} \left| \frac{2}{\ell} \sum_{i=1}^\ell \sigma_i f(\vec{x}_i) \right| \middle| \vec{x}_1, \dots, \vec{x}_\ell \right]
14:23:41 <fizzie> That would probably be more readable with a TeX-supporting IRC client.
14:24:07 <fizzie> There's also at least one typo: the } after \mathcal{F} should be a ).
14:24:52 <fizzie> Hey, that thing actually works.
14:24:58 <fizzie> http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=\hat{R}_\ell%28\mathcal{F}%29%20=%20\mathbb{E}_\sigma%20\left[%20\sup_{f%20\in%20\mathcal{F}}%20\left|%20\frac{2}{\ell}%20\sum_{i=1}^\ell%20\sigma_i%20f%28\vec{x}_i%29%20\right|%20\middle|%20\vec{x}_1,%20\dots,%20\vec{x}_\ell%20\right]
14:25:07 <fizzie> Not a pretty link, but it does what it should.
14:25:42 <fizzie> Should've probably stripped out the spaces, though.
14:26:59 <fizzie> http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=\hat{R}_\ell%28\mathcal{F}%29=\mathbb{E}_\sigma\left[\sup_{f\in\mathcal{F}}\left|\frac{2}{\ell}\sum_{i=1}^\ell\sigma_if%28\vec{x}_i%29\right|\middle|\vec{x}_1,\dots,\vec{x}_\ell\right]
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14:27:13 <fizzie> Not that shorter. Well, that's what URL-shorteners are for.
14:28:11 <fizzie> Oh, and instead of \vec{} it should optimally be something that does \mathbb{} instead of the silly over-arrow. Oh well.
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15:50:02 <elliott> hi ais523
15:50:12 <ais523> hi
15:50:43 <ais523> hmm, I hate it when people do that to the topic
15:50:53 <elliott> ais523: No, we actually officially changed mission.
15:51:07 <elliott> I'm doing voodoo right now!
15:51:09 <ais523> that seems a little implausible
15:51:15 <ais523> and I expect it'd cause most of the channel to /part when they found out
15:51:22 <elliott> Don't you feel the voodoo doll stabs, ais523???
15:51:30 <elliott> I thought I was ready :(
15:51:37 <elliott> (Note: I am lying through my teeth)
15:51:45 <elliott> Actually not through my teeth at all, I'm just lying.
15:51:57 -!- elliott has set topic: Not the logs unless they are: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:52:28 <ais523> hmm, I need to wind down a bit
15:52:38 <Sgeo> Just helped someone with C++ stuff
15:52:42 <ais523> I had around 5 hours sleep this morning, and this afternoon by mitsake
15:52:43 <ais523> *mistake
15:52:48 <elliott> ais523: You should listen to me talk about my efforts to create a simple term rewriting tarpit!
15:52:52 <elliott> (Note: Possibly not actually interesting)
15:52:58 <elliott> ais523: Self-interpreting, specifically.
15:53:07 <Sgeo> I needed to hit him in the head with "Don't assume the contents of the data file. The program should only know the structure"
15:53:12 <Sgeo> He's in the programming track
15:53:13 <Sgeo> I weep
15:53:18 <ais523> elliott: don't worry, do the typical thing where the author of the lang monologues and other people maybe read them later
15:53:29 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm overreacting
15:53:32 <ais523> Sgeo: it's bad enough just seeing the other /teachers/ on my C course
15:53:38 <elliott> ais523: I already did that (well, with the implementation) and nobody's polite enough to pretend to be interested :)
15:53:40 <ais523> let alone some of the students
15:53:53 <ais523> elliott: I might logread it, then
15:54:12 <ais523> I'm sorry, I've been really lax with the logreading over the past couple of years
15:54:17 <Sgeo> I kind of liked xkcd
15:54:18 <elliott> ais523: It doesn't actually give any indicator as to what the language is like.
15:54:24 <elliott> Or the implementation, really, I just ranted about all my bugs :)
15:54:32 <Sgeo> It wasn't that funny, but it was cute
15:54:36 <elliott> ais523: also, logreading is hardly a duty :)
15:54:59 <elliott> Sgeo: wow, possibly worst xkcd yet
15:55:05 <elliott> wait, no, not worst xkcd yet. but -- close ...
15:55:21 <ais523> I want to make a new video codec because all the existing ones suck, at least for encoding certain sorts of video
15:55:50 <ais523> but I don't really have time
15:56:20 <elliott> ais523: Good luck doing better than H.264 :P (Yeah, I know, you've said, but still.)
15:56:53 <ais523> H.264 can't even encode a black square on a white background properly if its dimensions aren't multiples of 16
15:57:09 <elliott> Prop 19 failed? Lovely.
15:57:28 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
15:57:35 <elliott> ais523_: yes it can
15:57:42 <elliott> ais523_: try x264 with quantisation set to 0
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15:57:56 <Sgeo> Dear Active Worlds: Upgrading one update at a time, and repeatedly bugging me, is absolute fun on a bun
15:58:00 <ais523_> elliott: hmm, how does that differ from being uncompressed?
15:58:08 <ais523_> I wasn't referring to quantisation, but to DCT artifacts
15:58:23 <elliott> ais523_: it still does all the other interesting things; it ends up being a very high quality (we're talking insane compression) lossless codec
15:58:51 <elliott> ais523_: pikhq encoded a detailed 10-minute 3D short in 1080p losslessly and it was very small.
15:58:56 <elliott> Only a few gigs; I forget the exact amount.
15:58:59 <elliott> pikhq knows :P
15:59:30 <pikhq> It was 5 gigs.
15:59:48 <elliott> ais523_: And it still does DCT, as far as I know.
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16:00:01 <pikhq> ais523: Quantisation is where the loss is.
16:00:12 <pikhq> ais523: The discrete cosine transform *itself* is lossless.
16:00:15 <elliott> ais523_: Basically, H.264 is not *designed* to encode pixel-accurately; no lossy codec is!
16:00:49 * pikhq shall get coffee and then go to class
16:01:12 <ais523_> elliott: indeed; it's just the sort of artifacts it creates are really visible in certain circumstances, as opposed to, say, mp3's
16:01:30 <elliott> ais523: you clearly haven't seen the pathological mp3 testcases
16:01:35 <ais523_> which is pretty much designed on the basis of trying to cause artifacts that human hearing can't detect
16:01:42 <ais523_> elliott: I'm not surprised there are pathological cases
16:01:48 <elliott> ais523_: turns out the eye is a lot more sensitive than the ear!
16:01:53 <pikhq> ais523: Also, you may want to try some of x264's presets. preset=slow tune=animation gets wonderful results on animation.
16:01:55 <elliott> What surprise!
16:01:59 <ais523_> I wonder how mp3 handles, say, a pulsetrain
16:02:02 <elliott> pikhq: it isn't ais523 doing the encoding
16:02:05 <elliott> pikhq: it's insane encoding freaks
16:03:41 <ais523_> (pulsetrains have pretty close to pathological behaviour, as sound goes; I suppose a pulsetrain with random delays would be even worse)
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16:05:52 <elliott> ais523: pulseplanes
16:17:51 <Gregor> Wow, Alaska had more write-ins than votes for either party-line candidate.
16:18:06 <Gregor> They haven't tallied who the write-ins are for yet, though (apparently)
16:18:36 <elliott> 18:53:29 <ais523> "sub f while !times 2 use spices endwhile endsub while !times 4 call f endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 4 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 4 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile" use spices 4, 3, 19, 5 times respectively
16:18:37 <elliott> dear god what
16:18:45 <elliott> Gregor: Sarah Palin
16:18:50 <elliott> Gregor: Please, god, let it be Sarah Palin.
16:19:53 <Gregor> Apparently it's basically Republican-vs-Tea-Party.
16:19:59 <elliott> Gregor: Sweeeet
16:20:00 <Gregor> Tea Party has 34% and the Republican ticket.
16:20:13 <Gregor> 41% is write-ins, and the Republican was running a write-in campaign.
16:20:16 <Gregor> So she MAY have won.
16:20:26 <Gregor> But we don't know yet.
16:20:40 <elliott> Gregor: Upside: No longer controlled by two parties
16:20:47 <elliott> Gregor: Downside: Controlled by two parties and the Tea Party
16:21:02 <Gregor> FOX has called Colorado blue, then red, then blue; they really can't make up their damned minds :P
16:21:31 <elliott> Gregor: "Let's... let's just go with red."
16:21:32 <Gregor> (Nobody else has called Colorado anything yet)
16:24:08 <elliott> Gregor: "America's asshole"
16:24:10 <elliott> I JUST DID
16:46:41 <elliott> pikhq: Hey, I didn't realise -- Google made a Japanese font.
16:48:04 <ais523_> <elliott> dear god what <--- we really need oklopol or someone to help with this
16:48:13 <ais523_> at least the second and fourth examples follow an obvious pattern
16:48:31 <elliott> ais523_: oklopol has outgrown computers
16:48:42 <ais523_> is that even possible?
16:48:50 <ais523_> oh well, someone else with the same atitude, then
16:49:11 <elliott> ais523_: yes, he hasn't programmed in like a year or two afaik, and he only does math now, even when he comes in here :)
16:54:48 <ais523> COBOL programs are arranged like companies
16:54:51 <ais523> so they make sense to accountants
16:55:10 <elliott> ais523: wow, I just realised that
16:55:14 <elliott> (they're arranged like companies)
16:55:23 <elliott> DAMN YOU GRAVE HOPPER
16:55:43 <elliott> *GRACE
16:56:02 -!- Gregor has set topic: Last oerjan sighting: Oh apparently we forgot about 'im | Not the logs unless they are: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:56:31 <elliott> does anyone want to email oerjan?...
16:56:34 <elliott> I'm starting to worry.
16:56:34 <ais523> why are you assuming oerjan is male?
16:56:40 <elliott> ais523: We've seen pictures?
16:56:45 <elliott> Well, one picture.
16:56:50 <elliott> Also, oerjan has said /me [...]he[...] before.
16:56:52 <ais523> elliott: someone assumed Gregor was female on that basis...
16:57:00 <elliott> ais523: Also, oerjan has said /me [...]he[...] before.
16:57:04 <elliott> Also, said picture was very much male :P
16:57:14 <ais523> so was the picture of Gregor!
16:57:17 <elliott> Admittedly Mike Riley was also very obviously a he but I *doubt* we're dealing with that here.
16:57:18 <Gregor> None of my pictures are ambiguous :P
16:57:25 <Gregor> Unless hair length is your only determiner for sex.
16:57:27 <ais523> also, haven't you done /me [...]she[...] before?
16:57:35 <elliott> As alise, yes, but that was to deliberately confuse people.
16:57:51 <elliott> ais523: you have elevated hate of gendered pronouns to a superstitious level...
16:58:07 <elliott> Gregor: Everyone thinks I'm female :P
16:58:08 <ais523> I don't really hate them, but they make me feel awkward
16:58:11 <elliott> Literally everyone.
16:58:24 <elliott> ais523: how do you know 'im is male?
16:58:25 <Sgeo> elliott, you?
16:58:32 <elliott> Sgeo: ? Yes.
16:58:42 <ais523> indeed, elliott believes herself female
16:58:48 <ais523> a tragic state of affairs, being agreed with by everyone
16:58:52 <elliott> heh
16:58:58 <Gregor> I think your male, mainly to make your "everyone" generalization wrong.
16:59:09 <Sgeo> elliott has a male?
16:59:10 <elliott> Gregor: Your wrong.
17:00:22 <elliott> I wonder if anyone still actually uses Slackware :) *troll*
17:02:11 <Gregor> My wrong? Not your wrong?
17:02:34 <elliott> <Gregor> I think your male, mainly to make your "everyone" generalization wrong.
17:02:38 <elliott> Gregor: Your wrong.
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17:02:59 <Sgeo> No, Gregor was literally thinking about elliott's male
17:03:00 <Gregor> ... touche :P
17:03:31 <Sgeo> elliott's is cleverer
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17:03:42 <elliott> My male is the cleverest wrong.
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17:05:55 <Gregor> Bow ... chicka ... bow ... wow?
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17:08:14 <Phantom_Hoover> OK.,
17:08:28 <Phantom_Hoover> My computer has completely ceased to function.
17:10:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it boots to the login screen, then the mouse and keyboard have no effect whatsoever.
17:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The virtual terminals are inaccessible, although alt-sysrq still works.
17:11:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BUY A MAC
17:11:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's what I'm on right now, but that's irrelevant.
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17:19:24 <elliott> Gregor: You know the best thing about reinstalling Debian?? YOU GET TO INSTALL DEBIAN!
17:26:26 <elliott> Jesus, some Debian packages are rather out of date...
17:26:35 <elliott> Some *sid* packsges.
17:26:41 <elliott> *packages.
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18:22:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: it was my own damn fault.
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18:27:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What did you do wrong?
18:28:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: I suspect I screwed up the fstab, but that doesn't explain *everything*.
18:28:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Like the weird splash art.
18:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> (It is also worth noting that $HOME was totally empty for me upon booting)
18:30:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, might as well reboot now.
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18:33:17 <elliott> http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html I propose we adopt this time system.
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18:34:27 <elliott> It was better when I thought "person" was someone's nick, though.
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18:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> New plan!
18:35:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Reinstall Ubuntu, then replace it with something that doesn't hate me!
18:35:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the second part is still hypothetical!
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18:35:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just install Debian.
18:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, but I need a running OS on my hard drive before I start trying that stuff.
18:36:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, s/need/want/
18:37:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: A broken OS is the ideal place to install something else :P
18:37:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: ah, but not when you can only use sysrq.
18:37:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You can burn a CD from that Mac...
18:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd prefer it if it was only half-broken.
18:38:14 <Phantom_Hoover> But ANYWAY
18:39:26 <Phantom_Hoover> And also, I need to DO THINGS, so it'll have to wait for a couple of hours in any case.
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18:45:08 <elliott> "As for memory, glibc 2 has more stuff than libc 5. It has to bigger libc 5. I don't call it libc 6 if it is smaller than libc 5." -- H. J. Lu
18:45:09 <elliott> wat.
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19:00:18 <Gregor> "You don't really see a 'boogie down' button in an elevator very often."
19:09:58 <coppro> pikhq: oklahoma wins 'dumbest ballot initiative'
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19:18:22 <elliott> Gregor: ...what xD
19:18:49 <coppro> there needs to be a
19:18:52 <coppro> double down
19:18:52 <coppro> button
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19:26:22 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhkxDIr0y2U THIS FOREVER AND BEYOND
19:33:26 <Vorpal> a primary reason with C code being hard to get right is that you often end up doing accesses like pointer + index in loops. Getting linked lists or trees right in C is almost trivial. Sure not as easy as a real high level language (you still have to be careful with NULL and invalid pointers).
19:33:27 <Gregor> Bahaha
19:33:41 <Gregor> Dudley Do-Right, "Coming Out Party"
19:33:51 <Gregor> <3 outdated English :P
19:35:15 <elliott> Gregor: :D
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20:19:00 <elliott> http://release.debian.org/migration/oldest.html -- the forgotten packages.
20:21:10 <elliott> http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/i386/iso-cd/ Debian: It's 31 motherfucking CDs.
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20:52:39 <elliott> Debian reinstall time ahoy.
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21:31:07 <Vorpal> I think my printer went mad. It can print any single page just fine. Printing two the second page look like MISSINGNO
21:31:29 <Vorpal> so I can print this pdf by selecting to print one page at a time
21:31:48 <Vorpal> same thing happens from a text editor, so it isn't just pdf viewer going insane
21:31:55 <Vorpal> could be cups going insane I guess
21:33:41 <olsner> oh, you're trying to print in *linux*?
21:34:03 <olsner> just use netcat of ot
21:34:08 <Vorpal> olsner, it has worked for *years*
21:34:11 <olsner> if it's a network printer, or cat if it's local
21:34:14 <Vorpal> olsner, it's a HP printer
21:34:17 <Vorpal> usb
21:34:22 <olsner> after converting to plain ps
21:34:24 <Vorpal> worked perfectly under linux
21:34:31 <Vorpal> never got it to work well under windows
21:34:37 <olsner> bah, I refuse to believe it
21:35:14 <Vorpal> olsner, HP printers are well supported under linux. Unlike most other printers. Kind of like how Intel is well supported when it comes to GPUs
21:39:05 <Vorpal> olsner, ska ha en "datortenta" imorgon.
21:39:10 <Vorpal> udda format
21:39:17 <Vorpal> (för tentor vill säga)
21:39:28 <olsner> en sån där du sitter vid dator och kodar eller?
21:39:38 <Vorpal> olsner, just det
21:40:22 <Vorpal> olsner, reglerna är ganska vaga: "förutom kursliteraturen får man ha med sig egna anteckningar" mhm... *hehe*
21:40:53 <olsner> är perfekt för kodkurser iaf
21:41:12 <Vorpal> olsner, om jag bara får skrivaren att fungera kommer jag att ha med en utskrift av en implementation av ett AVL-träd som jag skrev idag..
21:41:35 <Vorpal> såvitt jag kan se tillåter reglerna det även om det kanske inte var tanken
21:41:51 <olsner> men ... vet inte om det är värt det när man kommer på fortsättningskurserna, då är det mycket bättre om tentan testar koncept utan att man behöver koda
21:42:00 <olsner> så kan man ha labbserie eller projekt där man får koda istället
21:42:17 <Vorpal> olsner, jo, men jag läser ju inte på master-nivå än så...
21:42:19 <fizzie> Anyone's postscript printers work well; I guess HP's custom-protocol nonsense works reasonably well too, though.
21:42:37 <fizzie> I had CUPS go all confused recently too; "reinstalling" the printer fixed it, though.
21:42:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed it does. And actually after powering off and unplugging the printer then waiting a minute or so before plugging it in again it seems to work normally
21:43:05 <Vorpal> so I guess it's internal state got confused somehow
21:43:16 <Vorpal> well, it's an old printer, I'm surprised it lasted this many years
21:43:18 <olsner> the fix was to turn it off and on again? :)
21:43:34 <Vorpal> olsner, no. Nothing as simple.
21:44:11 <Vorpal> olsner, turning it off *and* unplugging, waiting for what was presumably capacitors to discharge *then* plugging it in again and turning it on
21:44:18 <Vorpal> HIGHLY technical fix
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21:46:13 <Vorpal> anyway, I can never seem to remember more than 5 minutes which rotation is which and when you use it. And well the course literature is in English, so checking that at the exam would take ages.
21:49:05 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever been in an exam which allowed any random notes; there's been some open-book ones where the course literature goes, and some with the official lecture notes too, but none with completely custom material.
21:50:26 <Vorpal> olsner, hm btw looking at the exam papers of previous years this teacher seems to have two discrete levels of imagination when making up "scenarios" for the questions... Those are: "absurd" and "utterly absurd"
21:50:40 <olsner> for me it would definitely be harder to read the book if it was in swedish
21:50:54 <Vorpal> olsner, you mean because it would be short, concise and so on?
21:51:25 <Vorpal> instead of something you could use for tactical cover in a gunfight
21:51:35 <Vorpal> use as*
21:51:39 <Vorpal> as a*
21:51:40 <Vorpal> gah
21:51:47 <olsner> well, no, because it would be written in swedish
21:52:02 <olsner> no-one knows any swedish computer terms
21:52:15 <olsner> and neither do I, so whatever they make up is just gibberish
21:52:25 <Vorpal> olsner, actually I have had some course Swedish litterateur, mostly they mention both terms.
21:52:50 <Vorpal> and actually work fairly well because they are *not* paid per word
21:52:57 <Vorpal> (the authors that is)
21:53:15 <olsner> I think you mostly have to find the right book
21:55:00 <fizzie> There's some Finnish computer terminology "officially" specified by Kielitoimisto (the help-the-people division of the Research Institute for the Languages of Finland), and some of those are completely ludicrous and/or unknown.
21:55:04 <olsner> the "introduction to algorithms" one (http://mitpress.mit.edu/algorithms/) is not very good since it's too long
21:55:31 <Vorpal> olsner, that too. The one on data structures and such I have here in Swedish uses examples in, pseudo-code, ML and java. Not always in a redundant fashion though. Fairly good except one place. Translated to English it would say something like: "Deletion of interior nodes in red-black trees is too complex to fit the scope of this book, and is thus left as an exercise to the reader."
21:55:44 <Vorpal> which is very strange, and doesn't match at all with the rest of the book.
21:56:19 <fizzie> Most of our machine-learning/information-science/etc. textbooks haven't been so overly verbose as, say, some of the maths textbooks.
21:56:54 <olsner> we used http://www.amazon.com/Structures-Their-Algorithms-Harry-Lewis/dp/067339736X, I remember it as being concise enough
21:56:54 <Vorpal> hm
21:57:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:57:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, moth math ones have been in Swedish for me so far
21:57:18 -!- quintopia has left (?).
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21:57:56 <Vorpal> olsner, 404
21:57:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Moth math!
21:58:01 <Vorpal> oh wait
21:58:03 <Vorpal> damn comma
21:58:56 <fizzie> Our basic maths course textbooks were in English; Finnish is admittedly a smaller language market, of course. More specialized courses have had some books in Finnish too. (Mostly written by our current/former lecturers.)
21:59:22 <Vorpal> anyway, a bit sad that I can't fit a full featured AVL into much less than 150 lines + 20 lines header file
21:59:25 <Vorpal> well
21:59:31 <Vorpal> not without making it obfuscated that is
22:00:17 * Phantom_Hoover reads Sgeo's Wikipedia user page.
22:00:28 <fizzie> This is a not-so-bad general-purpose pattern recognition book: http://cgi.di.uoa.gr/~stpatrec/welcome3d.html -- though the Bishop book http://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Recognition-Learning-Information-Statistics/dp/0387310738/ is not bad either, I hear.
22:00:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, look, he has e^(a+bi) and i^i there.
22:00:44 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like cargo-cult maths.
22:00:51 <fizzie> Oh, there's already a Fourth Edition of Theodoridis & Koutroumbas.
22:00:52 <Vorpal> hm single largest thing is handling walking the tree... due to handling all combinations of {pre,post,in}{left-to-right,right-to-left}
22:01:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless he actually learnt calculus at some point.
22:02:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, must dash.
22:02:54 <Vorpal> i^i? what's the point?
22:03:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:03:37 <Vorpal> just an irrational real number *shrug*
22:04:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:07:50 -!- evincar has joined.
22:08:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_who_is_no_longer_here: Those two numbers have been there since Oct 2004.
22:15:11 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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22:17:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> Onwards and Debianwards!
22:18:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, fizzie left an important message to you in the logs
22:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> 14:08:42 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover_who_is_no_longer_here: Those two numbers have been there since Oct 2004.
22:19:38 <fizzie> For some very small values of "important".
22:19:50 <Phantom_Hoover_> So Sgeo was what, 14?
22:19:56 <Sgeo> Hmm?
22:20:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, it wouldn't have sounded good if I had said "a message of no actual consequence"
22:20:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Good, no, honest, maybe.
22:20:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, I was pondering why you have e^(a+bi) and i^i on your user page.
22:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> When, by your own account, you're a few limits short of a differential.
22:21:10 <Sgeo> I thought those were interesting
22:21:22 <Sgeo> Although i^i still confuses me
22:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, OK, it goes like this:
22:21:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, since truth <=> beauty, so follows that beauty <=> truth (since <=> is symmetrical)
22:21:55 <Phantom_Hoover_> i^i = -1^(½i)
22:22:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, and thus it must be true that it was important
22:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover_> = e^a
22:22:39 <Vorpal> what is confusing about i^i?
22:22:41 <Sgeo> a?
22:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, just a variable.
22:23:12 <Vorpal> if it had turned out to be, 1 or pi or something I could have understood...
22:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover_> a = ½i ln -1
22:23:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> Since e^i*pi = -1, ln -1 = i*pi
22:24:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, indeed. and that is a lot more interesting than plain i^i
22:24:17 <Sgeo> That... makes sense
22:24:26 -!- elliott` has joined.
22:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hence a = ... -pi? Wait, I'm confusing myself.
22:24:37 <elliott`> Debian -- the only operating system that ships with two graphical web browsers!
22:24:48 <Vorpal> elliott`, in the default install?
22:24:50 <fizzie> That looks way more complicated than just going e^(pi/2*i) = i => i^i = (e^(pi/2*i))^i = e^(i*(pi/2)*i) = e^(-pi/2).
22:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> And I don't have Mathematica any more.
22:24:57 <elliott`> Vorpal: Yes.
22:25:01 <elliott`> Vorpal: Epiphany and Iceweasel.
22:25:06 <Vorpal> elliott`, huh, why
22:25:16 <elliott`> Vorpal: Because GNOME ships with Epiphany and Epiphany sucks, I'd guess :)
22:25:17 <Phantom_Hoover_> fizzie, ah, so we get the same result.
22:25:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> Good.
22:25:25 <elliott`> Debian's "gnome" package is stock GNOME + Debian extras.
22:25:36 <elliott`> Presumably Iceweasel is among the extras.
22:25:41 <Sgeo> Why, exactly, is e^ai defined to be cos a + i sin a?
22:25:42 <Vorpal> elliott`, they don't have it split in multiple packages?
22:25:52 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, Taylor series.
22:25:55 <elliott`> Vorpal: Yes they do.
22:26:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, damn you beat me to it
22:26:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> Explaining that in IRC is an exercise in futility, though.
22:26:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, taylor series? indeed...
22:27:33 <Vorpal> I don't completely understand how they work myself
22:27:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> *Basically*, e^ix = 1 + ix - x^2/2! - ix^3/3!...
22:28:02 <elliott`> Vorpal: And shockingly, it even almost works with YouTube out of the box!
22:28:15 <Vorpal> elliott`, "almost"?
22:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> cos x (in radians) = 1 - x^2/2! + x^4/4!...
22:28:26 <Vorpal> elliott`, I never had problems with youtube-dl ;P
22:28:33 <elliott`> Vorpal: It loads the UI and everything, it just says "An unknown error has occurred" instead of the video.
22:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover_> sin x = x - x^3/3! + x^5/5!...
22:28:39 <elliott`> GNASH POWER
22:28:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, the confusing bit is *why* it is so
22:28:47 <Vorpal> elliott`, haha
22:28:52 <elliott`> No wait --
22:28:56 <elliott`> "An error occurred, please try again later."
22:29:03 <elliott`> You know, like in a few years. When Gnash works.
22:29:23 <Vorpal> elliott`, is it an error message from gnash or from youtube?
22:29:34 <elliott`> Jewtube.
22:29:47 <elliott`> http://www.jewtube.com/ It exists!
22:29:55 <Vorpal> elliott`, what is that page?
22:29:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, well, I can't explain that without calculus, which Sgeo doesn't seem to exude confidence in.
22:29:58 <Vorpal> do I dare click?
22:30:00 <Sgeo> e^(i(a+bi)) = e^(ia + ibi) = e^(-b + ai) = cos(a+bi) + i sin (a+bi) = (e^-b)(cos a + i sin a)
22:30:11 <elliott`> Vorpal: It's YouTube for Jews.
22:30:12 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, I know the basics.
22:30:32 <elliott`> Sgeo: What, exactly, do they teach you in US high school?
22:30:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, personally I always found discrete math way easier than calculus. And less of a hell when it came to exams too.
22:30:46 <elliott`> Do you get trigonometry at 17 or something? Don't answer that, I imagine the result will be depressing.
22:30:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, OK, so d/dx(e^ax) = ae^ax.
22:31:12 <Phantom_Hoover_> Pleasepleaseplease tell me you know the chain rule.
22:31:15 <Sgeo> Yes
22:31:18 <Vorpal> elliott`, I doubt they teach Taylor series are in high school though
22:31:26 <Vorpal> elliott`, even in UK
22:31:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, they do in Scotland.
22:31:33 <elliott`> Sgeo: Was that yes to my question or Phantom_Hoover_'s?
22:31:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, wow
22:31:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, we did Maclaurin series.
22:31:43 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_'s
22:31:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, hm?
22:32:00 <elliott`> Vorpal: I think Taylor series are in the Sixth Form Further Maths course or whatever.
22:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, a subset of Taylor series.
22:32:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> They're in AH (final year) maths in Scotland.
22:32:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, ah, right. Rings a bell now
22:32:30 <Sgeo> Although I think I was too unfocused to recognize the applicability until you mentioned it
22:32:32 <Sgeo> >.>
22:33:00 <elliott`> Vorpal: Maclaurin series are definitely in sixth form further maths.
22:33:01 <elliott`> Just googled.
22:33:13 <elliott`> Vorpal: Now watch as I try and disable root's password and switch to sudo ENTIRELY FROM WITHIN GNOME
22:33:14 <Vorpal> elliott`, I see. Not around here though.
22:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott`, how would that be hard? just open gnome-terminal
22:33:36 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, ...ok
22:33:38 <elliott`> Vorpal: That would end up directly invoking non-GNOME programs :)
22:33:39 <Sgeo> Um
22:33:48 <Sgeo> You just seemed to have stopped talking
22:33:52 <Vorpal> elliott`, then it probably can't be done
22:33:56 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, this next bit requires quite a lot of algebra.
22:34:41 <Sgeo> O...k? I'm too tired to work anything out, but I can follow along
22:35:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> Erm... OK, so we want f(x) = a_0 + a_1x + a_2x^2 + ... for some f.
22:36:05 <Sgeo> Oh, to approximate e^x?
22:36:06 <Sgeo> e^ax
22:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, the infinite series _is_ f(x) here.
22:36:34 <Sgeo> I... think I see where you're going with this
22:36:58 <elliott`> Vorpal: Well, I just added myself to the sudo group using GNOME.
22:37:04 <Sgeo> Do we really need to deal with the a?
22:37:12 <Sgeo> Can we just look at e^x to simplify our lives?
22:37:16 <Vorpal> elliott`, why do you hate su btw?
22:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, well, it's no great difference.
22:37:38 <Sgeo> Becaus then a_0 + a_1x + a_2x^2 + ... = a_1 + 2a_2x + ...
22:37:48 <elliott`> Vorpal: Did I ever say I hate su?
22:37:55 <Vorpal> elliott`, no but you acted like it
22:38:00 <elliott`> No I didn't.
22:38:03 <Sgeo> Or is that not the direction we're going?
22:38:08 <elliott`> I don't hate su; I like sudo more, at least for a desktop.
22:38:13 <Vorpal> mhm
22:38:15 <Vorpal> elliott`, why is that?
22:38:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK, so f'(x) = a_1 + 2a_2x + 3a_3x^2 + ...
22:38:36 <elliott`> You have almost certainly heard all the arguments and come up with counter-arguments, so what's the point?
22:38:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, thank you for reminding me why I prefer discrete math.
22:39:15 <Vorpal> elliott`, personally I don't care about sudo vs. su
22:39:21 * Sgeo decides to pretend that descrete math doesn't exist
22:39:34 <Phantom_Hoover_> f''(x) = 2a_2x + 3*2a_3x^2 + 4*3a_4x^3 + ..
22:39:59 <elliott`> Vorpal: If I didn't use sudo, I'd just have root's password be my user password, which is absurd.
22:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott`, well okay, sudo is somewhat more complex than su, thus potentially prone to more bugs. I do remember seeing the occasional CVE for sudo, but su? not as far as I can remember.
22:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> f'*n(0) = n!a_n
22:40:20 <elliott`> Vorpal: Now the fun thing the last time I used Debian/GNOME was that PolicyKit's default confiugration really loves su, so it's hard to set it properly.
22:40:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> (where f'*n is the nth derivative)
22:40:29 <Sgeo> Wait what?
22:40:29 <Vorpal> elliott`, eh I'm not sure I completely agree that is an effect of using su
22:40:33 <Vorpal> but for some perhaps
22:40:33 <Sgeo> Oh
22:40:34 <Sgeo> 0
22:40:41 <elliott`> Vorpal: For me, yes.
22:40:43 <elliott`> Vorpal: sudo is not, as far as I know, significantly more complex than su.
22:40:48 <Sgeo> Wait what?
22:40:50 <elliott`> Vorpal: Also, su is a lot older, so it's likely to be much more mature.
22:40:56 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover_, you forgot a term in f''(x)
22:41:12 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, right you are.
22:41:40 <Phantom_Hoover_> Yeah, decrease all the exponents there by one.
22:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> Anyway, can you understand the f'*n(0) bit?
22:42:15 <Sgeo> Yes
22:42:40 <Sgeo> Although out of curiosity, is there a strict and formal way to do that?
22:42:44 <Vorpal> elliott`, su is: check password, start shell. sudo is: read config file, parse it (and it has quite a lot of features, such as only allowing editing of files as a different user and what not), then check if we should keep some env vars, and discard some (as specified in the config), then ask user for own or target password, or none at all (as specified in the config) and so on
22:42:52 <Sgeo> Or is it just noticing the pattern and having a strong grasp why it is what it is?
22:43:08 <Phantom_Hoover_> Sgeo, yes, it's simple enough induction, but formalising it is pointless here.
22:43:17 <Vorpal> elliott`, so yes, I would call it a bit more complex
22:43:18 <elliott`> Vorpal: It's a fucking *desktop*
22:43:23 <Vorpal> elliott`, true
22:43:27 <Phantom_Hoover_> Anyway, a_n = f'*n(0)/n!.
22:43:32 <Vorpal> elliott`, I have nothing very much against sudo. I use it myself
22:43:34 <elliott`> "such as only allowing editing of files as a different user and what not" ;; afaik it's actually just command-based
22:43:43 <Vorpal> elliott`, I was just wondering why *you* preferred sudo over su
22:43:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hence f(x) = f(0) + f'(0)x + f''(0)x^2/2! +...
22:44:06 <elliott`> Vorpal: 'Cuz I like it.
22:44:13 <Sgeo> mind = blown
22:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> That last formula is the definition of a Maclaurin series, by the way.
22:44:51 <Sgeo> That is absolutely amazing and beautiful
22:45:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> So in the case of e^x, f'*n(0) = 1, and f(x) = 1 + x + x^2/2! + x^3/3! + ...
22:45:57 <Vorpal> elliott`, okay...
22:46:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> You should be able to see for yourself that the derivatives of e^ix cycle between e^ix, ie^ix, -e^ix and -ie^ix.
22:46:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> Since you just multiply by i each time.
22:47:01 <Sgeo> Oh, that's why we were talking about e^ax
22:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hence f'*n(0) cycles 1, i, -1, i, ...
22:47:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> *-i for that last one.
22:47:23 <elliott`> [21:44] <Sgeo> That is absolutely amazing and beautiful
22:47:26 <elliott`> wait 'til you see euler's equation
22:47:30 <elliott`> :P
22:47:37 <Phantom_Hoover_> That's what I'm getting to...
22:48:21 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK, the derivatives of sin x cycle along sin x, cos x, -sin x, -cos x, ...
22:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Same for cos x, but with the phase shifted along by one.
22:48:43 <Vorpal> kind of weird that i, pi, e ties so neatly to together when you think about it.
22:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover_> Hence f'*n(0) = 0, 1, 0, -1, ... for sin and 1, 0, -1, 0, ... for cos.
22:49:32 -!- kar8nga has joined.
22:49:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> So sin x = x - x^3/3! + x^5/5! - ...
22:50:26 <Phantom_Hoover_> And cos x = 1 - x^2/2! + x^4/4! - ...
22:51:47 <Sgeo> e^ix = 1 + ix + -x^2/2! + -x^3/3!
22:51:48 -!- elliott` has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:51:53 <Sgeo> + ... ?
22:52:10 <Sgeo> Wait
22:52:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> Now, e^ix = (1 - x^2/2! + x^4/4! - ...) + i(x - x^3/3! + x^5/5! - ...)
22:52:19 <Sgeo> That should be -ix^3/3!
22:52:46 -!- iGO has quit.
22:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover_> Those two brackets are the exact series for sin and cos, so e^ix = cos x + i sin x.
22:53:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> Q.E.D.
22:54:14 <Sgeo> Thank you
22:54:18 <Sgeo> That's beautiful
22:54:58 <evincar> Sgeo: Staggeringly.
22:55:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> It's tremendous fun to derive, too.
23:01:26 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: Dickin' around doin' nuthin'.).
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23:09:25 <elliott> Interesting Decisions, #N: Shipping TeX fonts by default. Why? I don't know...
23:09:45 <elliott> Sure makes the font selector a lot more irritating to use, though.
23:10:05 -!- sftp has joined.
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23:11:58 <nooga> uy
23:12:05 -!- elliott has joined.
23:12:10 <Phantom_Hoover_> All this mathematics has made me forget to install Debian.
23:12:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: 64-bit, right?
23:12:39 <elliott> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/squeeze_di_beta1/amd64/iso-cd/debian-squeeze-di-beta1-amd64-netinst.iso
23:12:41 <elliott> Have fun.
23:12:52 <nooga> beh
23:13:02 <nooga> bare debian is not funny
23:13:11 <elliott> nooga: "Bare" Debian comes with GNOME these days.
23:13:18 <elliott> And Firef^WIceweasel.
23:13:32 <nooga> oh
23:13:38 -!- Zuu has joined.
23:13:41 <Vorpal> <elliott`> wait 'til you see euler's equation <-- his identity or his formula? I don't remember one called "equation"
23:13:46 <elliott> Er, identity.
23:13:50 <Vorpal> elliott, ah
23:13:56 <elliott> nooga: At least if you don't untick "Graphical environment", which presumably only someone not wanting a graphical environment would do.
23:13:57 <Vorpal> elliott, then indeed
23:14:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: There's a small bit of tweaking to get it workings udo-style, if you want, afterwards, but stock Debian is actually perfectly usable.
23:14:34 <elliott> *working sudo-style,
23:14:40 * elliott tells GNOME he wants to use Iceweasel, not Epiphany.
23:14:46 <elliott> (You see, the thing is, Epiphany sucks.)
23:14:49 <Phantom_Hoover_> What have they got against su?
23:14:57 <elliott> They use su by default.
23:15:00 <Phantom_Hoover_> *sudo
23:15:00 <elliott> I don't :)
23:15:02 -!- Zuu_ has joined.
23:15:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: They just don't ship it by default and there's no obvious way to configure gksu/PolicyKit. However, once you're in the sudo group, it's just one gconf edit and one file copy and quick edit.
23:15:41 <elliott> XChat fails at text rendering when you change the font settings, brb.
23:15:42 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit).
23:16:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> But what do they have against sudo?
23:16:16 -!- elliott has joined.
23:17:26 <Gregor> "Sources confirmed that while searching for a fertile female politician with whom to repopulate Congress, DeFazio discovered the body of a still-breathing Christine O'Donnell and crushed her neck with the heel of his shoe."
23:17:29 -!- elliott_ has joined.
23:17:33 <elliott_> Dear peer: wtf did I do wrong?
23:17:51 <elliott_> 15:16:01 <Phantom_Hoover_> But what do they have against sudo?
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23:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> Gregor, ah, that explains everything?
23:18:02 <Phantom_Hoover_> *.
23:18:13 <elliott_> Same thing they have against $anything_they_don't_ship_by_default_for_whatever_reason; nothing, they just don't ship it by default.
23:20:51 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:21:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> I think I'll move my home directory over piecemeal, rather than all at once.
23:21:47 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
23:21:50 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
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23:21:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: No separate home partition?! !OOZOZMOOMOMG (note: i don't have one either)
23:22:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> No, I do.
23:22:12 <elliott> Then just re-use it.
23:22:39 <Phantom_Hoover_> Yeah, but I'm wary of bunging every setting from Ubuntu straight into minimalistic Debian.
23:23:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Just rm -rf .*
23:23:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Also, um, you have a terrible impression of Debian.
23:23:20 <Phantom_Hoover_> OK, yes
23:23:28 <elliott> Debian default installer is almost identical to Ubuntu that takes a bit more fiddling to get how you want :P
23:23:30 <Phantom_Hoover_> I wasn't complaining, but anyway...
23:23:39 <elliott> But I'd just remove all settings, really.
23:23:59 <Phantom_Hoover_> I have a couple of conf files I'd quite like to keep...
23:24:02 <elliott> It's a new OS, new configuration! New hassle!
23:24:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> My .zshrc, for one thing.
23:24:49 <elliott> zsh users, aka bash users minus a few years
23:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> And one or two app-specific folders.
23:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> elliott, you're just jealous!
23:25:12 <elliott> No, I used zsh for ages.
23:25:15 <elliott> brb
23:25:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, don't do rm -rf .*
23:25:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, bad idea
23:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal: The man with no sense of sarcasm.
23:25:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, you would lose stuff like saved passwords in mozilla, ssh keys, gpg keys
23:25:58 <Vorpal> and so on
23:26:23 <fizzie> I usually -- when updating, that is -- just move my whole home directory to something like "_" or "oldhome" or "archive", and then lie to myself that I'll sort through it on my leisure.
23:26:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, alternatively: the man who spent too much time in distro support channels
23:26:46 <fizzie> (Leading to paths like ~/_/oldhome/archive/prog/_/archived_prog/old/...)
23:26:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, what distro would mangle it?
23:27:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> _Any_ time in distro support channels is too much time.
23:27:07 <Vorpal> so that you need to move stuff away
23:27:08 <fizzie> Oh, it's just that I like a clean start.
23:27:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh okay
23:27:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't use rolling release then
23:28:01 <elliott> Vorpal: stop being stupid and making points by condescending assumptions you know to be false
23:28:05 <elliott> fizzie is an avid Debianer :P
23:28:10 <elliott> well, for some definition of avid.
23:28:14 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal: The man with no sense of sarcasm.
23:28:17 <elliott> well it was figurative
23:28:20 <Vorpal> elliott, oh is he? I didn't remember that
23:28:20 <elliott> "delete all configuration"
23:28:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I just concluded that he didn't use rolling release based on the evidence
23:29:44 <fizzie> That's not really any sort of evidence.
23:30:06 * Phantom_Hoover_ feels like an idiot.
23:30:16 <Phantom_Hoover_> How am I meant to get the ISO onto a flash drive?
23:30:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, it would be rather ill-defined what a major upgrade on rolling release was. And if it was every upgrade it would be rather inconvenient since they happen all the time
23:30:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, unetbootin?
23:30:39 <fizzie> Last reinstall was when switching from Debian to Ubuntu on this workstation. (But I still have all other computers here Debian installations, so I'm still an avid Debianer, just a bit less avid.)
23:31:17 <fizzie> And the one before that when I switched in some much larger HDs, and took that as a good chance to pretend I'd clean up my ~ again.
23:31:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, alternative answers: Using a computer. By plugging the flash drive into the relevant (probably USB) port.
23:31:48 <fizzie> So no, I don't wipe out ~ on every "aptitude upgrade".
23:31:50 <Vorpal> I suspect the first one was most useful though
23:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover_> Vorpal, I effing guessed the second one.
23:32:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, :P
23:32:07 <Phantom_Hoover_> I assume I can't just dd across.
23:32:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, iirc you need a special boot sector
23:32:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, unetbootin is easy to use
23:33:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover_, GUI program and all that
23:37:23 <Vorpal> night →
23:37:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[# Trigonometry or Algebra 3 or Pre-Calculus: ages 15+]] — WP, on the US maths curriculum.
23:37:44 <Phantom_Hoover_> [[# Calculus: ages 16+ (usually seen in 12th grade, if at all; some honors students may see it earlier).]] AAA
23:38:15 <Phantom_Hoover_> Waitaminute, that's the normal age in Scotland.
23:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover_> I'm just young for my year.
23:49:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:54:15 <coppro> pikhq: did you see my complaint about Oklahoma?
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