←2010-11-03 2010-11-04 2010-11-05→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:02:31 -!- oklopol has joined.
00:03:06 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:09 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:11 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:14 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:16 <oklopol> okokokokokokokoko
00:03:22 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:26 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:29 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:36 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:40 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:41 <oklopol> okokokokokokokoko
00:03:46 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:51 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:54 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:03:59 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:04:02 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokoko
00:04:03 <oklopol> okokokokokoko
00:04:07 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:04:10 <oklopol> hi everyone
00:04:13 <oklopol> my name is oklopol
00:04:17 <oklopol> oklopol ominovorol
00:04:19 <oklopol> and i'm here to stay
00:06:05 <Sgeo> MonoDevelop or SharpDevelop?
00:06:28 <oklopol> SharpDevelop
00:07:06 <Sgeo> Elaborate?
00:07:20 <oklopol> it has more BAZAP
00:07:32 <Sgeo> ...?
00:07:38 <oklopol> it has a nicer name
00:08:26 <oklopol> what's sharpdevelop?
00:08:54 <Sgeo> http://www.icsharpcode.net/opensource/sd/
00:09:45 <oklopol> right
00:09:50 <oklopol> a text editor
00:10:48 <Sgeo> I'm just going to go ahead and assume that both SharpDevelop and MonoDevelop are more lightweight than Visual Studio
00:11:06 <oklopol> visual studio i've used, it's a nice text editor
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00:12:55 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: why are you here to stay?
00:13:48 <oklopol> why wouldn't i be?
00:16:08 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: saying 'okokoko...' lots of times
00:16:31 <elliott> mathnerd is noob
00:16:38 <elliott> hi okky!!!
00:16:41 <oklopol> ;)
00:16:57 <elliott> okokokokoko
00:17:24 <Mathnerd314> elliott: exactly. when did you come to this realization?
00:17:31 <pikhq> coppro: Mrf
00:17:46 <coppro> pikhq: agreed
00:17:51 <elliott> when you dissed okky
00:18:59 <oklopol> yeah everyone learns to love me with time
00:19:18 <elliott> yup
00:19:25 <Mathnerd314> elliott: ah, ok.
00:19:57 <oklopol> hey Mathnerd314, are you a math nerd
00:20:02 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so do you think I'm a noob in general or just in context of okky?
00:20:29 <elliott> too complex question
00:20:32 <elliott> okokokokokoko
00:20:34 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: I would say so, from a biased perspective
00:21:10 <oklopol> what kind of math nerdity do you do
00:23:27 <nooga> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
00:23:36 <nooga> thin lens approximation in 3d
00:23:48 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: abstract algebra, mostly
00:23:53 <oklopol> ooh
00:23:55 <nooga> how do i find that goddamn transformation matrix
00:24:00 <oklopol> what algebras
00:24:11 <nooga> NAOAAOAOAOOAOA
00:24:18 <oklopol> do you like
00:24:22 <oklopol> best
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00:28:16 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: commutative ones
00:28:51 -!- sftp has joined.
00:29:02 <oklopol> tell me something cool about them
00:29:54 <Mathnerd314> rather hard, since we're studying *noncommutative* algebras :p
00:31:03 <oklopol> so what are the operations, do algebras where you just have a commutative operator have some common properties, or are we talking about + and *
00:31:57 <Mathnerd314> commutative algebras seem to consist mostly of rings, ideals, and modules, all of which have both + and *
00:32:17 <oklopol> an ideal is an algebra?
00:32:19 <oklopol> in what sense
00:32:28 <oklopol> hmm
00:32:49 <oklopol> multiplication operators and addition? does each ideal give you a module like that?
00:33:57 <Mathnerd314> clarification: are we talking about fields of mathematics or specific types of mathematical objects?
00:34:17 <oklopol> i think we're talking about objects
00:35:22 <oklopol> my specific question is
00:35:29 <oklopol> ohh
00:35:42 <oklopol> "<Mathnerd314> commutative algebras seem to consist mostly of rings, ideals, and modules, all of which have both + and *" <<< so this was about fields, not objects
00:36:10 <Mathnerd314> yes. s/algebras/algebra/
00:37:34 <oklopol> so
00:37:41 <oklopol> tell me something about noncommutative algebras
00:37:54 <oklopol> something sexy
00:39:20 <oklopol> what i've done with algebra recently was inventing homomorphisms, i came up with this marvellous way to associate semigroups and groups to algebras, and of course it was just a convoluted implementation of homomorphism (semi)groups
00:39:23 <Mathnerd314> I don't know about "sexy"... but all semisimple ones are just matrices
00:40:41 <oklopol> so first of all what do we have, we have a... ring? or do we have an algebra in the sense ring-module-hybrid
00:41:08 <oklopol> i haven't done noncommutative algebra, so i can't really jump into a vague explanation, you'll have to set theory it up
00:41:19 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: a ring
00:41:22 <oklopol> okay
00:41:23 <oklopol> cool
00:41:35 <oklopol> semisimple?
00:42:39 <oklopol> "but all semisimple ones are just matrices" <<< if a ring has the property of semisimplicity, you can implement the ring as a ring of matrices?
00:42:52 <Mathnerd314> "for all modules over this ring, every submodule has a complement so that the module is a direct sum of the submodule and its complement"
00:43:08 <Mathnerd314> ^ semisimple
00:43:18 <Mathnerd314> (ring)
00:43:28 <oklopol> there must be a clever pun about how non-simple that definition is
00:43:35 <oklopol> let me see if i get it
00:44:10 <oklopol> okay that seems natural enough i guess
00:45:46 <oklopol> so was my interpretation up there correct
00:46:26 <Mathnerd314> yeah, pretty much.
00:47:24 <Mathnerd314> they might be some weird-looking matrices though
00:47:41 <oklopol> given R, i don't really know at all what modules over it are
00:49:16 <Mathnerd314> a module is something that it makes sense to multiply by an element of the ring
00:49:32 <Mathnerd314> for example, you can multiply vectors by a scalar
00:49:57 <Mathnerd314> so a module is that operation, but without constraints like commutativity etc.
00:50:08 <oklopol> module = abelian group + scalar multiplication by ring elements, with some compatibility axioms, right
00:50:34 <oklopol> hmm
00:51:22 <oklopol> i'm completely wrong ain't i
00:51:35 <Mathnerd314> no, that looks about right
00:52:13 <oklopol> i was just wondering
00:52:22 <oklopol> ah just non-commutative ring
00:53:21 <oklopol> i was wondering where non-commutativity can be found if the vectors form an abelian group, but that place is the ring
00:54:27 <oklopol> whose result is that, and from what year, are you a researcher, do you have a degree, do you have publications, and what do you work on
00:57:08 <Mathnerd314> "theorem about semisimple rings", ~20-30 years ago (IIRC), no, no, not much
00:58:26 * Mathnerd314 rereads and wikipedia's
00:58:37 <Mathnerd314> oh, it's the Artin-Wedderburn theorem
00:58:45 <Mathnerd314> never was much for names though
00:58:56 <oklopol> oh me neither
00:59:18 <oklopol> well
00:59:38 <oklopol> i can't associate them to the theorems very well, so i tend not to care about them for that reason
01:02:12 <oklopol> i was mainly wondering if that was something you had been working on, you never know
01:05:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:05:33 <elliott> back
01:06:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:06:36 <elliott> phanty revealed his age, he
01:06:37 <elliott> heh
01:06:41 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: it's just a math course I'm taking now, mostly for fun
01:10:09 <oklopol> btw you had less answers than i had questions, methinks
01:10:35 <elliott> Mathnerd314 has failed his duty to oklopol.
01:10:40 <elliott> oklopol: oerjan's disappeared :(
01:10:44 <oklopol> ?
01:10:45 <elliott> he hasn't been in here for like 10, 11 days
01:10:46 <oklopol> :o
01:10:55 <elliott> which he's never done before, afaik
01:10:59 <elliott> also he has no life so a holiday is unlikely :)
01:11:25 <elliott> oklopol: so what was this Norwegian guy, name starts with V
01:11:33 <elliott> oklopol: said you were there, norway hostname, lilja came in soon after
01:11:40 <oklopol> we stayed at his house
01:11:55 <elliott> oklopol: so you were the only one of them who hates us too much to log in :D
01:12:09 <oklopol> well i don't carry my computer around
01:12:13 <oklopol> i hate computers
01:12:20 <elliott> :)
01:12:50 <elliott> oklopol: so by "here to stay", do you mean you're not going to suddenly not be here for ages, or do you just mean for today
01:13:15 <oklopol> good question
01:14:06 <elliott> oklopol: well if it's the latter, i will make sure finland gets bombed
01:14:08 <elliott> just sayin'
01:14:16 <oklopol> ;)
01:14:54 <elliott> oklopol likes bombs too much
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01:17:54 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: indeed, I've been taking notes than memorizing the material, because I probably won't see anything like it again
01:18:09 <Mathnerd314> *rather than memorizing
01:18:10 <pikhq> God. Rand Paul won his race.
01:18:15 <pikhq> Rand fucking Paul.
01:18:28 <coppro> yes, the USA is retarded
01:18:37 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: is there something wrong with Rand Paul?
01:18:38 <elliott> it should be illegal for rand paul to have such a close name to ron paul
01:18:45 <oklopol> Mathnerd314: nono the personal questions
01:18:47 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: He is fucking crazy.
01:18:48 <coppro> did anyone pass a balanced budget requirement?
01:18:50 <oklopol> i listed questions
01:18:53 <coppro> because if he did, looooooooooool
01:18:53 <pikhq> elliott: You can blame Ron Paul for that.
01:19:02 <elliott> pikhq: why not rand paul
01:19:06 <oklopol> and you answered one less than i asked, not sure which you omitted
01:19:09 <elliott> his name isn't rand paul it's randal howard paul
01:19:10 <pikhq> elliott: Rand Paul is Ron Paul's son.
01:19:20 <elliott> oh
01:19:23 <elliott> SO HE IS
01:19:28 <coppro> balanced budgets are totally wrong for governments
01:19:39 <Mathnerd314> oklopol: oh, just make it 3 no's instead of 2
01:19:39 <elliott> pikhq: the fact that rand paul is middle-aged says something about how old ron paul is :)
01:19:53 <pikhq> coppro: Well, there was a ballot question on whether or not to forbid the state from *taking out any loans* here.
01:20:14 <elliott> Please tell me that tapeworm one passed in Washington.
01:20:27 <coppro> pikhq: oh god
01:20:39 <Mathnerd314> do you ever feel that most of this should be in #esoteric-blah rather than #esoteric ?
01:20:42 <coppro> please tell me it failed
01:20:44 <elliott> i propose that the state is not allowed to spend money
01:20:45 <coppro> Mathnerd314: no
01:20:57 <elliott> Mathnerd314: none of us are hierarchy and organisation-obsessed enough to disrupt the flow like that
01:21:02 <elliott> but yes, most of #esoteric is off-topic.
01:21:25 <pikhq> coppro: It failed hardcore.
01:21:35 <coppro> phew
01:21:42 <pikhq> coppro: 73% against.
01:21:48 <coppro> your populace has demonstrated basic macroeconomic literacy
01:21:49 <coppro> what state?
01:21:53 <pikhq> Colorado.
01:21:53 <Mathnerd314> elliott: is #esoblah disorganized enough?
01:22:06 <elliott> Mathnerd314: we like talking about random shit
01:22:08 <elliott> if you want esolangs talk
01:22:12 <elliott> say something esolang-related and interesting :)
01:22:14 <pikhq> coppro: There were also questions about reducing/eliminating various taxes.
01:22:44 <coppro> pikhq: and?
01:22:56 <coppro> actually, you know what, I'll look myself
01:23:06 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: what? you're in colorado too?
01:23:10 <pikhq> coppro: For instance, halving property tax, halving income tax, maxing vehicle taxes to $100 a year, and eliminating property taxes on those who use state-owned land for a private use.
01:23:21 <pikhq> coppro: All of them failed.
01:23:25 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Yeah.
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01:24:39 <coppro> why did Amendment P fail?
01:25:10 <elliott> ballotpedia is cool
01:25:21 <coppro> yes, that's what I'm looking on
01:25:25 <pikhq> coppro: It would cost a small amount of money this year if enacted, I guess?
01:25:29 <elliott> coppro: "Amendment P, which would move regulation of all games of chance into the Department of Revenue, would ultimately have the effect of reducing cost — or should have that effect....However, there’s a $116,000 expected startup cost, which in another year might be fine, but this year is not. Vote against."
01:25:38 <elliott> also the one below which just opposed all constitutional amendments
01:26:11 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: you're even in driving distance.
01:26:15 <pikhq> coppro: Not too upset about it failing, though. Sure, it'd be beneficial, but it's a structural detail that doesn't matter *too* much, y'know?
01:26:20 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Orly? Where are you?
01:26:26 <elliott> At least prop 19 was only beaten by a small margin.
01:26:34 <elliott> (54 to 46, rounding)
01:26:37 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: colorado springs, next to the interstate
01:26:37 <elliott> (percent, that is)
01:26:51 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Which side of town?
01:28:09 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: north-ish
01:28:09 <pikhq> I'm kinda amazed anyone was opposed to Amendment Q.
01:28:24 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Mmm...
01:28:43 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: May have to meet up sometime for God-knows-what.
01:28:56 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: geohashing!
01:29:04 <elliott> pikhq: The Steamboat Today appears to be the only media outlet to disapprove of Amendment Q because of its strange no-constitutional-amendments policy.
01:29:18 <elliott> [[Some of this fall’s ballot measures are more innocent, such as Amendment P and its attempt to transfer oversight of licenses bingo and raffle games to the Department of Revenue, and Amendment Q, which would establish a process for temporarily moving the seat of state government from Denver in the event of a disaster. But we hardly see the need for them. Why spend $116,000 to transfer gaming oversight to a different department when the current s
01:29:19 <elliott> seems to have worked just fine?]]
01:29:29 <pikhq> elliott: Aaand so 42% of people voted against it‽
01:29:31 <elliott> I have no idea who the Steambot Today are.
01:29:37 <elliott> pikhq: PROTEST VOET
01:29:37 <pikhq> elliott: Nor do I.
01:30:06 <elliott> *boat
01:30:16 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat_Pilot_%26_Today
01:30:30 <elliott> http://www.steamboatpilot.com/news/2010/oct/20/our-view-vote-no-state-amendments/
01:31:33 * Sgeo hugs version control
01:31:37 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: It would be really easy for me to get whereever you are; I'm currently going to school at PPCC (Centennial campus)
01:31:52 <Sgeo> It was easy to change the VS2010 project back into a VS2008 project
01:32:28 <pikhq> So. Few miles on I25 away.
01:32:40 <elliott> I hate version control.
01:32:42 <coppro> glad to see that Colorado hates prolifers
01:33:01 <pikhq> coppro: Only all that popular in El Paso County.
01:33:04 <Sgeo> elliott, uhh
01:33:09 <pikhq> coppro: The land of fundamentalists and retards.
01:33:20 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, and rural areas, but they can... Kinda be ignored.
01:33:35 <elliott> http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/11/conspiracy-theories.html Someone tried to buy Britain!
01:33:40 <elliott> The government, that is.
01:33:57 <elliott> coppro: I'm prolific; I'm a prolifer, one could say.
01:35:33 <elliott> HAHA "megabucks"
01:35:37 <elliott> Its chairman came to me and said, "We have this extraordinary request to assist in a major financial reconstruction. It is megabucks, but we need your help to assist us in understanding whether this business is legitimate".
01:35:48 <elliott> It is megabucks.
01:35:51 <elliott> Quite so indeed.
01:37:41 <pikhq> elliott: I strongly suspect that the Queen in Right of Britain is not for sale.
01:37:52 <elliott> pikhq: Read the quote. It's... interesting.
01:37:59 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: google maps claims it takes 18 minutes to get to PPCC. I guess that's reasonable.
01:38:06 <elliott> pikhq: [[I have had one of the biggest experiences in the laundering of terrorist money and funny money that anyone has had in the City. I have handled billions of pounds of terrorist money.]] [[My biggest terrorist client was the IRA and I am pleased to say that I managed to write off more than £1 billion of its money.]] [[I hasten to add that it is no good getting the police in, because I shall immediately call the Bank of England as my defence
01:38:06 <elliott> ss, given that it put me in to deal with these problems.]]
01:38:15 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Seems 'bout right.
01:38:28 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Might be shorter from here to PPCC, though.
01:38:38 <pikhq> ("here" being Woodmen and 24)
01:38:49 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Erm, from here *than* from PPCC.
01:40:04 <pikhq> elliott: What the hell?
01:40:05 <elliott> pikhq: I like how you're not shocked at all :P
01:40:07 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, there we go.
01:40:45 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: no, that's even father
01:40:59 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Mmkay.
01:41:09 <Mathnerd314> *farther
01:41:21 <pikhq> elliott: A random shady organization actually tried to *buy the UK*.
01:41:30 * Mathnerd314 should be doing homework instead of mispelling things on IRC
01:41:43 <elliott> pikhq: It appears that this Lord is, ehm, off his rocker.
01:41:55 <elliott> pikhq: It is likely that he laundered money and then promptly displaced his entire collection of marbles.
01:42:03 <elliott> Lord De Mauley [Government Whip]: The noble Lord is into his fifteenth minute. I wonder whether he can draw his remarks to a conclusion.
01:42:09 <elliott> Looks like he's, well, just crazy :P
01:42:32 <pikhq> One hopes.
01:43:33 <elliott> "Reads like the setup for the biggest advance fee fraud in history, doesn't it?"
01:43:36 <elliott> --comment
01:44:56 <elliott> http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_lords/newsid_9146000/9146065.stm 2h34m in
01:45:35 <elliott> [[b. It may or may not speak to Lord James' sanity that his last noteworthy appearance was during a debate on immigration on 21 October, in which he referred to an obscene song about Hermann Goering trying to have sex with a kangaroo.]]
01:45:57 <elliott> http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2010-10-21a.903.2&s=speaker%3A13880#g923.0
01:48:12 <elliott> pikhq: What's that organisation that OWNS EVERY STOCK EVER?
01:50:49 <elliott> pikhq: I forget its name.
01:50:58 <Mathnerd314> elliott: the government?
01:51:10 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Haw haw. No, the actual corporation that owns 99% of all stocks.
01:51:19 <elliott> (Buying a stock without them involves actual physical stock certificates.)
01:51:31 <elliott> (99% of all stocks worldwide, that is)
01:51:48 <Mathnerd314> http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-000923.htm ?
01:52:30 <elliott> yes
01:52:36 <elliott> them
01:52:39 <elliott> pikhq: Clearly they'er the ones.
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01:54:20 <pikhq> elliott: Depository Trust & Clearing Corporation
01:54:27 <elliott> Right.
01:54:35 <elliott> Wait, 99% of stocks in the US, but most stocks in other countries. Whatever.
01:55:03 <pikhq> They could hypothetically purchase a continent.\
01:55:31 <elliott> [[Instead, what they typically do is to put the stocks into the name of "Cede and Company" or "Cede & Co" or some such variation. And the broker might tell you that it is just a fictitious name, and will explain why it is really more practical to do that than to put it in your name.
01:55:31 <elliott> The problem with that is that it appears that Cede isn't just some dummy name, but an actual corporation that DTCC controls.]]
01:55:39 <elliott> pikhq: Looks like I believe in conspiracy theories now.
01:56:04 <pikhq> elliott: They're not really conspiracy theories if they're very well-known facts.
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01:56:14 <elliott> pikhq: Very well-known, scary, scary facts.
01:56:19 <pikhq> elliott: Yes.
01:56:26 <elliott> pikhq: Also: Very well-known by who?
01:56:33 <pikhq> elliott: Every stock broker.
01:56:44 <elliott> pikhq: Which is... the conspiracy, more or less.
01:56:46 <pikhq> elliott: Congress.
01:56:51 <pikhq> elliott: The few souls who watch CSPAN.
01:56:52 <elliott> pikhq: Conspiracy theories are known inside the conspiracy? Zomg :P
01:57:32 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, okay. The point is, it's not exactly a conspiracy theory if all the reasoning or evidence for it is a matter of public record that anyone could easily find if they cared to.
01:57:38 <pikhq> elliott: It's instead just fucking scary.
01:57:43 <elliott> pikhq: Hid in plain sight...
02:01:54 <Sgeo> Is Cede & Co necessarily a bad thing?
02:03:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: They could crash the world economy in an instant.
02:03:06 <Mathnerd314> how?
02:03:20 <Mathnerd314> who cares about who owns what?
02:03:26 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Several ways.
02:03:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: "Fuck you, we're getting rid of our stocks because we like cocaine and hookers."
02:03:57 <elliott> THE NEXT DAY
02:03:58 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: They could simply fire every single CEO at once, thereby causing crisis.
02:04:00 <elliott> "where go stocks"
02:04:26 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: They could dissolve every company.
02:04:41 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: They could assume control of every company.
02:05:01 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: hmm? how?
02:05:23 <coppro> Uh, they are merely a trust.
02:06:26 <elliott> And thus pikhq was assassinated.
02:07:53 <elliott> coppro: IIRC, they're basically not regulated at all, but, uh, pikhq knows more about this than me.
02:08:14 <coppro> elliott: They do not own shares, they keep them in trust
02:08:30 <elliott> coppro: Uhh, they do own the shares, the "shareholder" is just the beneficiary.
02:08:39 <coppro> oh, really?
02:08:40 <coppro> hrm
02:08:42 <elliott> The stocks are in the name of DTCC.
02:08:47 <elliott> Or "Cede & Co".
02:08:55 <coppro> I thought they were just a trust
02:09:00 <elliott> coppro: No -- they own the shares.
02:09:19 <elliott> Because ha ha ha why would it be something REASONABLE like THAT
02:13:42 <coppro> elliott: actually, I'm looking it up now
02:13:45 <coppro> they legally own the shares
02:13:52 <coppro> however, they are not stockholders
02:13:56 <coppro> and thus have no legal power
02:14:03 <elliott> hmm
02:14:09 <elliott> pikhq's looked into this more than i have, i defer to him, but okay.
02:14:27 <coppro> (except for the companies that they are actually invested in, of course)
02:15:21 <pikhq> coppro: Uuuh, how the hell does *that* work? The "stockholders" actually have no rights over those shares at all.
02:15:56 <pikhq> Are things even screwier than I thought?
02:16:29 <coppro> pikhq: no, they do
02:16:30 <coppro> that's the thing
02:17:50 <pikhq> coppro: *How*?
02:18:05 <coppro> pikhq: because Cede legally owns the shares, but does not have the legal rights of a shareholder
02:18:15 <pikhq> coppro: *How does that work at all*.
02:18:23 <coppro> the system is screwy, but it is better than them just owning everything
02:18:40 <coppro> pikhq: exactly how it sounds
02:19:24 <pikhq> coppro: It sounds like you're proposing a spherical cube.
02:19:48 <coppro> pikhq: it's very simple
02:20:02 <coppro> it's like having land with an easement over the entire property
02:20:54 <pikhq> Fucking hell I hate the legal system.
02:21:10 <pikhq> I keep forgetting that it would allow for spherical cubes.
02:22:03 <pikhq> Okay, so Cede & Co. *could* just go and burn all the stocks thereby causing a global panic. But other than that their ownership is somewhat meaningless.
02:22:06 <elliott> spherical cubes? Like the TIME CUBE
02:22:23 <elliott> hmm yeah, what would happen if they simply burned everything? ignoring the illegality (is it illegal?)
02:22:52 <pikhq> elliott: It may be illegal, but the resulting hard crash of everything would make prosecution very difficult.
02:23:02 <elliott> woot woot i propose we do it
02:23:14 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I'm guessing they'd just print them out again
02:23:31 <Sgeo> I think we're talking abot metaphorical burning
02:23:35 <Sgeo> abot
02:23:36 <Sgeo> Abott
02:23:46 <Sgeo> Flatland
02:23:48 <Sgeo> Active Worlds
02:23:50 <Sgeo> C#
02:23:54 <pikhq> Yes, we're talking Abott metaphorical burning.
02:23:56 <elliott> no, literal burning.
02:24:03 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Who, Cede & Co.?
02:24:07 <elliott> Mathnerd314: In this scenario, they have decided that fuck people.
02:24:47 <pikhq> So, this is just another way that everything depends on a single person not going apeshit-crazy.
02:24:58 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I don't *think* the world would end if the stock market crashed.
02:25:06 <pikhq> (another such way is, well. The President of the US could at a moment's notice end life.)
02:25:15 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so it wouldn't end if the stock market disappears either
02:25:24 <Mathnerd314> elliott: or if the stocks are burned...
02:25:34 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Yes, but the economy would crash *hard*.
02:25:34 <elliott> Mathnerd314: remember the great depression?
02:25:39 <elliott> it's sort of like 1,000 times worse than that
02:25:41 <elliott> or more
02:25:42 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no :p
02:25:54 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: All the money would be gone.
02:25:56 <elliott> i think if the stock market crashed an awful lot of people would die.
02:25:59 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Yes, all of it.
02:25:59 <elliott> like
02:26:02 <elliott> literally, crashed completely
02:26:04 <Sgeo> pikhq, um
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02:26:18 <Sgeo> Wouldn't single-celled life still live?
02:26:18 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: whatever, people start bartering
02:26:28 <Sgeo> Or at least some of it?
02:26:42 * elliott stabs Sgeo to death
02:26:43 <pikhq> Sgeo: Radiodurans would.
02:26:58 <elliott> Mathnerd314: You have a terribly naïve view of the world :P
02:27:05 -!- wareya has joined.
02:27:14 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Okay, so we go back several millenia.
02:27:16 <Sgeo> It can survive vacuu,? o.O
02:27:17 <Mathnerd314> elliott: YES. it's your job to fix it
02:27:18 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: That's "wonderful".
02:27:26 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, Radiodurans is fucking nuts.
02:27:35 <coppro> The stock market crashing would not end society
02:27:36 <Ilari> Radiodurans? You mean "lots of nukes fly" scenario?
02:27:42 <coppro> it would be Very Very Very Very Bad though
02:27:46 <elliott> Mathnerd314: RAPE AND DESPAIR
02:27:50 <Sgeo> Ilari, radiodurans is a bacterium
02:27:54 <pikhq> Ilari: The entire US stockpile.
02:27:54 <elliott> coppro: it would end *western* society
02:27:55 <Sgeo> bacteria?
02:28:00 <elliott> <Sgeo> Ilari, radiodurans is a bacterium
02:28:01 <elliott> ORLY
02:28:19 <pikhq> elliott: Bacterium can also refer to a single species of bacteria.
02:28:20 <coppro> elliott: no. we are retarded and would rebuild it worse
02:28:29 <Sgeo> I thought Ilari didn't know what it was and didn't Google
02:28:45 <Ilari> Yeah, I know. And it takes A LOT of radiation to kill it (that's where it got its name).
02:29:11 <Mathnerd314> elliott: suppose everyone suddenly just burned all the money and started doing things out of habit. would life go on as before?
02:29:19 <pikhq> Ilari: Yup. With nukes flying, radiodurans would be just fine.
02:29:37 <Sgeo> How does that evolve?
02:29:39 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: You are ignorant of macroëconomics.
02:30:09 <elliott> Mathnerd314: oh yeah 'cuz everyone would do that.
02:30:20 * elliott suspects Mathnerd314 is the naïve variety of anarchist
02:30:23 <coppro> macroeconomics is scary
02:30:35 <Ilari> Aren't there also some molds that use ionizing radiation as energy source (found inside the infamous Chernobyl 4 reactor)?
02:30:37 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: yes; I've done math but not econ
02:30:42 <pikhq> Ilari: Yeah.
02:30:53 <coppro> Mathnerd314: go take an econ course or two
02:31:16 <elliott> Ilari: yes
02:31:18 <elliott> Ilari: which is awesome
02:31:29 <pikhq> Ilari: They use melanin. :)
02:31:40 <Mathnerd314> elliott: Nation States characterizes me as "Left-Leaning College State" http://www.nationstates.net/nation=asdjeklcdh
02:31:53 <elliott> nationstates has nothing to do with actual political preferences ZOMG
02:32:13 <Mathnerd314> well, I've been doing it according to my naive views
02:32:21 <elliott> NationStates is also naïve :P
02:32:24 <elliott> It's a game.
02:32:36 <Mathnerd314> ok...
02:32:38 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: This is a bit like using a gossip magazine quiz as an indicator.
02:32:38 <elliott> "Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, all forms of advertising are banned."
02:32:40 <elliott> niiiice
02:32:42 <Sgeo> Duct tape!
02:33:04 <Sgeo> So I can't bring people to Sine?
02:33:08 <elliott> Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, the police have been reduced to using duct tape instead of handcuffs following further cutbacks.
02:33:26 <Mathnerd314> elliott: yes, I never said I made sane decisions :p
02:33:28 <elliott> "Following new legislation in FlagAsdjeklcdh, long arduous trials are held for the most trivial of offences." :D
02:33:47 <Sgeo> I like Active Worlds
02:33:55 * Sgeo promptly gets arrested
02:33:56 <elliott> Sgeo: you and all zero other people
02:34:03 * Sgeo breaks free from his duct tape
02:34:10 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: obviously. I'm trying to show how little I know
02:35:15 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Just FYI: currency actually came into existence soley because barter sucks.
02:35:26 <elliott> [LOGREADING ME] play nationstates since you can't resist, nation is called Battletoadia
02:35:32 <pikhq> (developing from using precious metals for barter in lieu of anything actually useful.)
02:35:39 <pikhq> (because barter sucks.)
02:36:27 <elliott> question
02:36:35 <elliott> do the History/Government Style fields change anything?
02:36:36 <elliott> Mathnerd314?
02:37:18 <Mathnerd314> elliott: wikipedia has a good description of how it works - basically, nothing matters; they're just indicators
02:37:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: can you change government style?
02:37:40 <elliott> who knows what i'll become
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02:39:35 <elliott> Mathnerd314 was then promptly shot by the CIA
02:39:49 <Mathnerd314> elliott: yeah, you just make decisions every day or so
02:40:09 <elliott> Mathnerd314: yes but the actual Government Style field
02:40:12 <elliott> i have played before, just don't recall it
02:40:14 <elliott> on the registration page
02:40:21 <elliott> Sensible / Liberal / Conservative / etc.
02:41:08 <Mathnerd314> elliott: read wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government:_NationStates
02:42:28 <elliott> Mathnerd314: does not answer my question :P
02:42:34 <elliott> i know what the government description things are
02:42:40 <elliott> i'm talking about the actual text box
02:42:43 <elliott> on the signup page
02:42:53 <Sgeo> Does war exist now?
02:42:58 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no
02:43:01 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: no
02:43:12 <Sgeo> Grah
02:43:15 <Sgeo> So where's the fun
02:43:18 <Sgeo> 5 questions a da
02:43:19 <Sgeo> day
02:43:21 <Sgeo> Grah
02:43:36 <elliott> Sgeo has huge psychological issues with answering
02:43:42 <elliott> Mathnerd314: no what?
02:43:54 <Sgeo> No, I mean... that's it, from what I recall
02:44:02 <elliott> Indeed.
02:44:07 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: I recall using the wirr instead of a currency
02:44:36 <Sgeo> Name the currency, name the nation, choose a location
02:44:41 <Sgeo> Answer 5 questions a day
02:44:44 <Sgeo> And.. that's it
02:44:47 <Sgeo> That's the whole thing
02:44:53 <Sgeo> Unless more was added/
02:45:23 <Sgeo> http://www.nationstates.net/nation=sgeo
02:45:31 <Sgeo> This was .... from many, many, years ago
02:46:37 <elliott> [[I bring regards from Region Inc I'd like to ask for you to join our region where YOU have a chance to take part in the government and more.]]
02:46:40 <elliott> I JUST SIGNED UP MORON
02:46:52 <Sgeo> "A loose coalition of sartorially-challenged individuals known as "Let It All Hang Out" has called on the government to relax public nudity laws.
02:46:52 <Sgeo> "
02:47:41 <elliott> http://www.nationstates.net/nation=battletoadia
02:47:43 <elliott> NEED MOAR QUESTIONS
02:48:05 * elliott sets to two per day.
02:48:14 <elliott> & with that, adieu.
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02:48:28 <Sgeo> Why did I make it illegal to make racist remarks? What did I do to freedom of speech o.O?
02:49:07 <pikhq> Sgeo: You raped it, much like Glenn Beck.
02:49:13 <Sgeo> 2710 days ago
02:49:32 <Sgeo> That's when I signed this nation up
02:49:58 * Sgeo decides not to tamper with it
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02:54:15 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: have you heard of the wirr?
02:57:00 <pikhq> Nope.
02:58:28 <Mathnerd314> something to do with "individual mutualism"
03:02:22 <pikhq> "Judicial activism". Stupidest god damned term ever.
03:03:14 <pikhq> The US is common law, people. Judges have the power and the obligation to make law. Deal with it.
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03:26:47 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: how did it get so quiet after elliott left?
03:30:27 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: c'mon, we're in the same timezone. you can't be asleep *this* early
03:30:30 <Gregor> I think that question answered itself.
03:31:01 <Mathnerd314> yeah, it did. :-/
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03:35:25 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I'm procrastinating on homework ATM.
03:35:25 <pikhq> Quite skillfully, for that matter.
03:36:10 <Mathnerd314> really? that's what I'm doing too! (less adeptly of course)
03:40:41 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: when is your homework due? mine is due tomorrow.
03:42:08 <pikhq> Tomorrow as well.
03:43:57 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: is it math homework?
03:44:30 <pikhq> Yes.
03:44:45 <pikhq> I will probably go into automatic-integration-mode in a few minutes.
03:47:32 * Mathnerd314 checks ppcc course list
03:50:13 <Mathnerd314> why is their course listing an 8 MB pdf with hundreds of crappy pictures...?
03:50:24 <pikhq> Because the smart people leave after two years.
03:50:35 <pikhq> As do the dumb people.
03:50:41 <pikhq> Leaving them with complete and utter morons.
03:51:54 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: calc 3?
03:52:01 <pikhq> Yup.
03:52:21 <Mathnerd314> yay, totally took that last semester :p
03:53:10 <Mathnerd314> (at UCCS)
03:54:01 <pikhq> Yeah, but I'm a cheap bastard.
03:54:02 <pikhq> :P
03:55:14 <Mathnerd314> uccs even looks closer...
03:56:06 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: but ppcc doesn't offer the course I'm taking now, namely Modern Analysis
03:56:53 <Mathnerd314> but I guess I get shielded from price differences because D20 is kind enough to pay my tuition
03:57:41 <coppro> D20?
03:58:23 <coppro> also, UCCS and PPCC?
03:58:38 <coppro> all I know of is the PPCA
03:58:58 <coppro> also, "Modern" analysis?
03:58:58 <pikhq> coppro: (public school) District 20; University of Colorado, Colorado Springs; and Pikes Peak Community College.
03:59:00 <coppro> what is that?
03:59:08 <coppro> ah, thanks
03:59:31 <Mathnerd314> coppro: pikhq and I happen to live within ~25 miles of each other
03:59:37 <coppro> yeah
03:59:42 <coppro> how much is that in km?
04:00:09 <pikhq> ~50km
04:00:16 <coppro> wrong
04:00:19 <coppro> more like 40
04:00:44 <coppro> and you're in math? :P
04:00:46 <Mathnerd314> coppro: why ask if you know the answer?
04:00:48 <pikhq> coppro: I use the approximation of 2km/mile for ballpark figures like that.
04:01:07 <coppro> Mathnerd314: because I want to see if you know
04:01:29 <pikhq> coppro: I know that it's actually 1.609344 kilometers per mile precisely, but it doesn't fucking matter for ballpark estimates like that.
04:01:35 <coppro> also, I don't do calc 3 for a year
04:01:38 <Gregor> http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/
04:01:39 <Mathnerd314> coppro: google gives miles, so that's what I gave. tell me when the US has a bill to switch to metric.
04:01:46 <coppro> Gregor: old
04:01:58 <coppro> Mathnerd314: it'll probably be a referendum
04:02:03 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: I don't have a time machine to go back and tell you before your birth.
04:02:30 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: that has a decent chance of getting passed
04:02:51 <coppro> is it 4 am UTC yet?
04:04:04 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Mendenhall Order. 1893. Metric has been official ever since.
04:05:00 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Also, Metric Conversion Act of 1975.
04:05:34 <Sasha> http://bash.org/?926627
04:05:36 <Sasha> gnight
04:09:24 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: ok, something that mandates use of the metric system
04:10:28 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: particularly for signage
04:10:33 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Until '98, a switch to metric for roads was planned to happen in 2000.
04:11:07 <pikhq> The problem is we *keep fucking stopping it*.
04:11:59 <pikhq> Fortunately, industry has started to beg for metrication.
04:12:13 <pikhq> Which might make it actually happen.
04:12:42 <Mathnerd314> yay :-)
04:13:02 <Mathnerd314> like I said, tell me when I get to vote / sign the petition / etc.
04:14:37 <pikhq> Also, the military is exclusively metric.
04:18:39 <Mathnerd314> Wikipedia says *illegal drugs* are measured in metric
04:18:52 <Mathnerd314> I'll bet Hitler used the metric system too!
04:21:52 <pikhq> Yes, he did.
04:22:02 <pikhq> Germany went metric in 1872.
04:23:53 <Sgeo> Dear 1010 Wins: Please don't link to cybersquatted domains
04:24:44 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: what about rel=nofollow,noindex?
04:24:56 <Sgeo> I didn't mean an actual link
04:25:04 <Sgeo> They mentioned something in a story
04:25:11 <Sgeo> http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/11/03/geo-tagging-the-dangers-of-posting-pictures-online/
04:25:20 <Sgeo> "The message was from Larry Pesce, the founder of icanstalkyou.com but its not what you think."
04:25:29 <Sgeo> Guess what? icanstalkyou.com is cybersquatted
04:31:54 <pikhq> Well fuck. I can't find my textbook.
04:32:17 <pikhq> Oh, there.
04:33:09 <coppro> the monster group scares me
04:33:16 <Sgeo> monster group?
04:33:22 <Sgeo> Are we bringing that rule back/
04:33:53 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: typosquatting, really, since http://icanstalku.com/ is real
04:47:15 <coppro> Sgeo: no, the monster group
04:47:16 <Ilari> Hah... If server certificate exceeds about 4kB, it'll overflow TCP window, leading to performance problems....
04:47:16 <coppro> it's a group
04:58:17 <Mathnerd314> interesting question: has the president ever been ill?
04:58:29 <coppro> yes
04:58:37 <Mathnerd314> when?
04:58:56 <coppro> one of your presidents died from health problems
04:59:02 <coppro> lurn istry thx
04:59:30 <Mathnerd314> well, Obama might have been a germophobe and never gotten sick
05:00:55 <Mathnerd314> see, the question was even in the news: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/27/AR2009042703597.html
05:01:52 <Mathnerd314> coppro: can't you see that I was asking about Obama?
05:18:24 <Sgeo> Nomics can have civil wars?
05:18:33 <Sgeo> I've fantasized about Agora havng a civil war
05:18:34 <Sgeo> But..
05:19:18 <Sgeo> Ok, that page is confusing
05:24:14 <Sgeo> WTF is Nano programming language
05:26:09 <Sgeo> It's supposedly inspired by Vala and Scala
05:26:57 <Gregor> Then it should be named Nala.
05:26:57 <Gregor> Or Nanala.
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06:06:20 <augur> oklopol!
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07:04:33 <balharius> hello DCC SEND "string" 0 0 0
07:08:10 <Vorpal> ... what a strange greeting
07:08:59 <Vorpal> alas, I have to leave for university now
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14:02:32 <Vorpal> hm would a bignum brainfuck without - be TC?
14:04:02 <ais523> or effectively, a 1-bit BF with "set bit" but no "clear bit"?
14:04:05 <ais523> I think quite possibly
14:05:11 <Vorpal> ais523, hm, are you sure that is equivalent?
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14:11:11 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't see any easy way to show that answering one of those questions would answer the other. For a start, with an infinite tape of bignums you would have a larger state than with an infinite tape of single bits, unless I completely mixed up something.
14:12:22 <Vorpal> the states for the bignum case would be uncountable, while for the bit case they would be countable, no?
14:52:06 <ais523> Vorpal: given that [] is the only command that cares about the value of a number, no values above 1 could be distinguished
14:52:23 <ais523> meanwhile, something to ponder: is there a number exactly equal to the number of Google results for that number?
14:55:18 <fizzie> ais523:
14:55:20 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/share/cog/corpora/google_ngram/dvd1/data/1gms$ zcat vocab.gz | egrep '^([0-9][0-9]*) \1$'
14:55:20 <fizzie> 15491 15491
14:56:04 <fizzie> Okay, so that's not exactly "google results", but in their "one trillion words from the internet" database, the number 15491 occurs 15491 times (or in 15491 documents, I forget the exact definition).
14:57:08 <fizzie> Actual google results for 15491 are 2,300,000, though; the google 1T ngram corpus is a very small part of the internet indeed.
14:57:47 <fizzie> (It is the only number there that matches.)
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15:02:06 <fizzie> Well now, that's rude!
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15:21:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, presumably his connection broke?
15:22:10 <Vorpal> unless it was a joke about a remote host being rude
15:22:19 <fizzie> Nah, it must be some form of conscientious discrimination. I'll sue.
15:22:26 <Vorpal> XD
15:22:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, he lives in UK not US
15:23:41 <fizzie> Oh, right. Then I won't sue. What's the UK equivalent? Maim?
15:24:06 <Vorpal> haha
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15:25:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, know any really good init system? upstart has a nice syntax for config files and does the right thing when it comes to supervising. But due to being event based rather than dependency based it tends to start more than it should. Just because foo is up doesn't mean everything depending on foo should start.
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15:26:13 <fizzie> Not really, no; I haven't even compared the well-known ones.
15:26:16 <Vorpal> systemd seems to get the dependency stuff right, and possibly also supervising. But config files are based on .ini like syntax... Which is quite nasty for this purpose..
15:27:14 <fizzie> Found any with XML configs yet?-)
15:27:18 <Vorpal> systemd also does deps inetd style when possible, creating sockets first and making things trying to connect to them trigger starting that thing (or block until it is up if it is already starting)
15:27:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems solaris uses that
15:27:43 <fizzie> Heh, wouldn't be too surprised. It's an Enterprise System, after all.
15:27:52 <Vorpal> but I'm looking for one that would work on linux and even a quick glance at it indicates it is very specific to solaris
15:28:01 <Vorpal> also license is... the usual weird one
15:28:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and systemd seems to have it's roots in the fedora/freedesktop.org caps. Which explains the config syntax at least...
15:29:21 <fizzie> I guess OS X's launchd has configuration that is apple-property-list and therefore indirectly XML-based, sort-of.
15:29:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm idea: use make -C /etc/init -j boot or such
15:30:06 <fizzie> I have a vague notion I've heard of a make-based init system, but maybe that was a dream or something.
15:30:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, launchd does a lot of the actual dependency stuff and so on the right way.
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15:31:08 <fizzie> "The Ubuntu Linux distribution considered using launchd in 2006. However, launchd was rejected as an option because it was released under the Apple Public Source License – which at the time was described as an "inescapable licence problem".[4]"
15:31:16 <fizzie> Oh, so they've even considered that. One wonders how seriously.
15:31:18 <Vorpal> the main issue with a make based one seems to be that you have to ensure that starting a daemon actually creates a file and that if a daemon dies the file actually gets removed. Even if it dies due to crashing or such
15:31:35 <Vorpal> also lack of supervisor
15:31:48 <Vorpal> which would make it as bad as sysvinit
15:32:49 <Vorpal> upstart syntax + systemd features seems like the perfect dream
15:32:52 <fizzie> "-- minimyth [a MythTV-centred distribution] is now defaulting to using a make based init system rather than an sh based init system --"
15:33:12 <Vorpal> I somehow read that as "MythBusters-centered"
15:33:14 <Vorpal> XD
15:33:27 <fizzie> So... explodes every week?
15:33:38 <Vorpal> hah
15:34:05 <Vorpal> anyway, neither sh-based one nor make-based one provides the critical supervising feature
15:37:01 <fizzie> It's not exactly necessarily for service-supervision to be wed with init, but as you wish.
15:37:32 <Vorpal> systemd seems to move a lot of stuff from shell scripts into C and then into systemd itself directly
15:37:35 <Vorpal> that sounds problematic
15:38:12 <Vorpal> I'm not sure what sort of stuff yet. But it could very well be stuff that only fits well into a redhatish distro.
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15:43:21 <Vorpal> also means recompiling init just to change that stuff
15:53:17 <cheater99> http://i.imgur.com/M39RA.png
15:54:48 <cheater99> fizzie: make based init system? wtf?
15:54:55 <cheater99> how does that even work?
15:56:04 <fizzie> Well, you know, make can run programs and all. Anyway, that was just from a forum posting. Based on the rest, I'd have to say "not very well" about how it works.
15:56:41 <cheater99> how about "wrong tool for the job" lol
15:57:37 <fizzie> It does sort-of handle dependencies for you.
15:57:45 <fizzie> Perhaps not a very good fit, still.
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16:09:07 <cheater99> lol
16:12:06 <Vorpal> hm, binaries produced by ghc tends to be large.... Otherwise haskell would be a nice language to write an init system in
16:14:01 <cheater99> why
16:15:27 <Vorpal> why what
16:22:23 <cheater99> yes
16:23:06 <Vorpal> ...
16:23:32 <cheater99> :'
16:23:35 <cheater99> .
16:23:47 <cheater99> '
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16:23:51 <cheater99>
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17:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Somebody please tell me Debian's netinstall thing supports WPA networks.
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17:46:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I miss anything?
17:47:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Don't you know your own mind best?
17:47:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, OK, you know about networks and stuff.
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17:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Does Debian's netinst support WPA networks?
17:47:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, while I do know a bit more than I want to about networks, I don't know about debian netinstall
17:48:05 * Gregor 's never used netinst for wireless, not to mention WPA :P
17:48:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, check if it has wpa_supplicant?
17:48:32 <Vorpal> and yeah for installs I just plug in the ethernet cable
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18:00:44 <Phantom_Hoover> SMBC got hacked, and badly.
18:01:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:05:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh?
18:05:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean the comic?
18:06:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
18:06:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.theweinerworks.com/?p=86 has an account of it.
18:07:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err, just reading a few lines in. They got hacked and *didn't* do a complete reinstall?
18:07:35 <Vorpal> How stupid
18:08:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Do I look like one acquainted with security?
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18:08:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm?
18:08:56 <Phantom_Hoover> It could be stupid; it might not be.
18:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know.
18:09:15 <Vorpal> well as that blog post shows, it was stupid
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18:28:18 <Vorpal> elliott, have you ever used an xor linked list?
18:29:00 <elliott> no.
18:29:08 <elliott> you have asked me that before
18:29:14 <Vorpal> no I doubt that
18:29:23 <elliott> no, you have
18:29:40 <Vorpal> elliott, unless it was several years ago, in which case: "do you expect me to remember that?"
18:29:48 <elliott> it was a year ago at the most
18:29:49 <elliott> i guess
18:29:50 <elliott> whatever
18:29:53 <Vorpal> hm
18:29:53 <elliott> i don't know
18:29:57 <elliott> Vorpal: i haven't, why?
18:30:48 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I'm trying to figure out if they have completely died out in modern times.
18:31:03 <Vorpal> thus my next question is: have you ever seen an xor linked list used?
18:31:07 <elliott> no
18:31:16 <oklopol> xor linked list = linked list where every adjacent pair of nodes has a link in one direction, but not the other
18:31:23 <oklopol> if you're lucky, it can be pretty useful
18:31:28 <elliott> ha
18:31:30 <Vorpal> oklopol, heh
18:31:37 <elliott> more complex code, memory is cheap, takes more cpu time, doesn't work with GC, doesn't work with debuggers
18:31:48 <Vorpal> elliott, true
18:32:09 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the xor swap trick? Used/seen it?
18:32:13 <oklopol> no change in algorithmic complexity
18:32:13 <Vorpal> I would expect "no" here too
18:32:21 <oklopol> everyone has seen that
18:32:29 <elliott> Vorpal: seen it, probably; used it, no
18:32:39 <oklopol> oh in a prog
18:32:40 <elliott> i like languages that let me say "a, b = b,a " :P
18:32:42 <Vorpal> oklopol, seen used in a context that wasn't about demonstrating the method I meant
18:32:42 <elliott> *b, a"
18:32:51 <oklopol> yeah
18:33:36 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed.
18:33:46 <Vorpal> elliott, python does, doesn't it?
18:33:53 <oklopol> ofc
18:33:57 <elliott> yes. i dislike python for different reasons entirely :)
18:34:08 <Vorpal> hm do you need a tuple to do it in python or?
18:34:25 <oklopol> the a, b on the left isn't a tuple, it's syntax
18:34:30 <Vorpal> ah
18:34:33 <elliott> yeah
18:34:33 <oklopol> IMO
18:34:36 <elliott> but the b, a on the right is a tuple
18:34:40 <Vorpal> elliott, XD
18:34:41 <oklopol> there's no pattern matching or anything
18:34:41 <elliott> a, b, c, d = x
18:34:44 <elliott> unpacks the tuple x
18:34:47 <elliott> into a b c and d
18:34:51 <elliott> so a, b = b, a
18:34:53 <elliott> equiv to
18:34:55 <elliott> a, b = (b,a)
18:34:58 <elliott> *b, a
18:35:01 <elliott> you can figure out the rest
18:35:25 <oklopol> a, (b, c) = 5, get_my_pair()
18:35:38 <Vorpal> that syntax on the lhs side always makes me think of erlang and haskell. Because it reminds me of pattern matching.
18:36:08 <Vorpal> and then I wonder why I'm using python instead of one of them
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18:43:08 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, know any good /sbin/init implementation? upstart is good except for it's event based nature. systemd gets most stuff except the config file syntax right, though it is very geared towards fedora-like distros.
18:43:21 <elliott> http://smarden.org/runit/
18:43:35 <elliott> or http://code.dogmap.org/svscan-1/
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18:44:06 <Vorpal> elliott, does it do the "create sockets, start stuff on demand when they try to connect" kind of thing that systemd does?
18:44:11 <elliott> or http://www.fefe.de/minit/ if you don't mind fefe software :P
18:44:18 <elliott> Vorpal: uhh, that's what inetd is for.
18:44:23 <elliott> (of whatever flavour)
18:44:35 <Vorpal> elliott, um. Not exactly. Not when used the rather cleaver way when systemd does
18:44:42 <elliott> which clever way is that
18:44:55 <Vorpal> elliott, this page explains it better than I could: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html
18:45:13 <elliott> Vorpal: 0pointer.de/blog = the PulseAudio developer
18:45:15 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a bit long, but very interesting and might be useful to you in your plans for new OS/distro
18:45:20 <elliott> = idiot
18:45:39 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I know, but it doesn't seem to idiotic in this case
18:45:39 <elliott> (Lennart Poettering)
18:45:48 <elliott> k i'll turn on my moron filter
18:46:06 <elliott> Vorpal: let me guess first -- is it so that if you, like, run startx
18:46:09 <elliott> and it looks for the x socket
18:46:11 <elliott> x gets magically started?
18:46:28 <Vorpal> elliott, could be, but not primary that.
18:47:09 <elliott> "Most current systems that try to parallelize boot-up still synchronize the start-up of the various daemons involved: since Avahi needs D-Bus, D-Bus is started first, and only when D-Bus signals that it is ready, Avahi is started too."
18:47:14 <elliott> this... scares me slightly, that this is a "bad thing"
18:47:22 <elliott> let's subvert dependencies for slightly fasterness!
18:47:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it lets you do stuff like start dbus at the same time as things that depend on dbus. And things that depend on dbus are not likely to be the very first thing they open. They probably read configs first and so on
18:47:51 <Vorpal> which means you wait pointlessly
18:47:55 <elliott> *probably*
18:48:13 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but if it isn't then no harm done, the reading on the socket would just block
18:48:34 <Vorpal> elliott, like when inetd is still starting the service, the thing blocks for a short time
18:48:52 <Vorpal> elliott, systemd fails however because 1) idiotic config syntax (it is based on the .desktop file syntax...), 2) too geared towards fedora
18:49:20 <elliott> systemd is in opensuse now. so there's that
18:49:41 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, i don't know -- systemd sounds like a rather large program.
18:49:44 <Vorpal> well okay, still it would be a hard fit out of box on debian for exampel I think
18:49:44 <Gregor> SO different from Fedora :P
18:49:55 <elliott> and while concurrent startup is good and starting up stuff you don't need is bad
18:50:03 <Vorpal> elliott, the idea about sockets used that way seems to be from launchd btw. And os x starts fearsomely fast.
18:50:07 <elliott> when it gets too fancy you're just insanely microöptimising
18:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, and that is one of the issues with upstart
18:50:24 <elliott> i wonder if the systemd authors ever thought "You know what, Avahi takes *too long* to start up. I have to start up *DBUS*!! I must rewrite init to make it faster."
18:50:24 <Vorpal> and yes, systemd is overengineered
18:50:36 <elliott> Vorpal: OS X's startup times are greatly underexaggerated :-)
18:50:46 <elliott> a typical OS X desktop system takes like 20, 30s to start up fully
18:50:56 <elliott> sometimes even 40s
18:50:59 <Vorpal> elliott, to some extent. But you can interact with it before that in my experience
18:51:12 <Vorpal> sure, spotlight would be a bit slow and so on
18:51:13 <elliott> most of that time is spent in the apple-logo-and-spinner in my experience
18:51:18 <elliott> it wasn't the fastest machine, but whatever :)
18:51:31 <elliott> (2.1 ghz first-generation core 2 duo, either 1 or 2 gigs of ram depending on when i measured it)
18:51:34 <Vorpal> elliott, right, My experience is that the time is spent after login in the bg
18:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, upstart does have that issue pointed out in the linked to page above
18:52:57 <elliott> which issue? i'm trying to read it but it's bloody long and it could be a lot shorter
18:53:01 <elliott> also i just woke up
18:53:16 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you just get home from school?
18:53:45 <Vorpal> elliott, see the section "On Upstart"
18:53:51 <elliott> my sleep schedule is beyond the ken of mere mortals
18:54:02 <elliott> including me
18:54:05 * elliott /On Upstart
18:54:14 <Vorpal> elliott, so... what do the teachers in school think about you then?
18:54:35 <elliott> does anyone in the universe even think? is THINKING real?
18:54:45 <elliott> just waking up is worse than sleep deprivation
18:54:46 <elliott> moving on,
18:54:57 <Vorpal> hah
18:55:25 <Vorpal> elliott, easy to a morning person! I wish I was one...
18:55:57 <elliott> "Or in other words, instead of having a clear goal and only doing the things it really needs to do to reach the goal, it does one step, and then after finishing it, it does all steps that possibly could follow it." this either makes no sense, or upstart is crazy
18:57:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I looked at upstart and ubuntu take great care to avoid doing just that. Upstart files would certainly be shorter expressed with a dependency system instead of an event one.
18:57:27 <elliott> they're not?
18:57:30 <elliott> haha
18:57:32 <elliott> that's stupid.
18:57:52 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, apart from that upstart is very nice however
18:58:01 <Vorpal> but it is, to my eyes, a major flaw
18:58:06 <elliott> deal-braker imo
18:58:31 <elliott> Vorpal: it appears that my opinions on init systems are in a bit of flux right now
18:58:53 <elliott> Vorpal: my package management opinions appear to have decided on "slackware's is *almost* complex enough" after i realised how hard writing a mega package manager would be
18:59:26 <Vorpal> elliott, a better idea that would keep the simplicity in upstart /sbin/init might be to have dependency syntax in the files and then have a separate program that generated the events from that. You could take advantage of that "caching" by putting it in one file (fewer disk access, and since the files are small, fewer read blocks) as well.
18:59:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I like the nix package manager btw
18:59:59 <elliott> so do i, so do i, but have you seen the /nix directory? i mean wow complexity man.
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19:00:12 <Vorpal> elliott, no I haven't, what is it for?
19:00:17 <elliott> everything
19:00:23 <elliott> /nix/store/packagename-LONGHASH/ is their root
19:00:24 <elliott> and the like
19:00:29 <elliott> and there's like 500 of them
19:00:33 <elliott> and so many symlinks from the normal tree to them
19:00:37 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and make -C /etc/init -j boot would seem perfect except that it doesn't provide the crucial supervising bit. And that still doesn't do the socket-masquerading and so on...
19:00:38 <elliott> and i just get scared.
19:00:51 <elliott> Vorpal: "-j boot"
19:00:52 <elliott> what
19:00:55 <elliott> isn't -j parallel
19:00:57 <Vorpal> elliott, yes
19:01:00 <Vorpal> and boot is a target
19:01:06 <Vorpal> you would have shutdown as another target
19:01:09 <elliott> Vorpal: since when does -j not require an argument? :)
19:01:41 <Vorpal> elliott, since the day they made -j without argument mean "no limit"
19:01:51 <elliott> i was not aware
19:01:52 <Vorpal> elliott, which was before I started using make
19:01:58 <elliott> Vorpal: i am not sure that is a good idea
19:02:02 <elliott> you don't have infinite cores: )
19:02:03 <elliott> * :)
19:02:03 <Gregor> It's a great way to make your computer shit itself.
19:02:09 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and you need to somehow delete target files if a daemon dies unexpectedly
19:02:18 <elliott> Vorpal: just make every target phony?
19:02:31 <elliott> or?
19:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, seems a bit messy, would mean you have to have logic to avoid dual starting in some other way
19:03:12 <Vorpal> which would defeat much of the point and also make the dependency stuff not actually work as expected
19:03:25 <elliott> debian tells me that it's using "makefile-style [concurrent? i forget] init" every time i start it up :)
19:03:51 <Vorpal> elliott, wrt -j: booting is not a CPU bound task most of the time, IO bound is quite common
19:03:54 <Vorpal> or a mix
19:04:02 <elliott> fine :P
19:04:06 <Vorpal> and sometimes waiting for, say, a reply from a dhcp server
19:04:28 <Vorpal> elliott, with two such tasks and -j2 you would stall stuff for no good reason
19:04:47 <elliott> i remember when /sbin/init was a shell script mumble fnumble
19:05:19 <Vorpal> elliott, and actually -j <more than cores> doesn't hurt a lot. Context switches aren't that important to performance. But with building software you would end up exhausting memory on most systems.
19:05:26 <Vorpal> which would not be likely at boot
19:05:31 <elliott> -j <cores> is optimal with bfs :P
19:05:56 <elliott> so gnash is now playing youtube vidyos!!
19:05:58 <Vorpal> elliott, only for building software or other CPU bound tasks.
19:05:58 <elliott> choppily
19:06:26 <Vorpal> elliott, and -j <cores+1> would be a tiny bit slower with CPU bound but not significantly so
19:06:55 <elliott> "Mr. McCane, you are... a douchebag. That's right, a *douchebag*." -- Hikaru Sulu
19:07:57 <Vorpal> elliott, defining characteristics for compiling that are not defining for booting: CPU bound *and* memory intensive. Very little IO bound usually.
19:08:04 <Vorpal> linking can be IO bound sometimes
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19:08:41 <Vorpal> elliott, that quote: what?
19:08:52 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UACK93xF-FE
19:09:03 <elliott> in which george takei is badass
19:11:11 <elliott> http://github.com/git/git git git git git git git git
19:12:05 <Vorpal> elliott, that movie, is it just me or is it mono on one ear?
19:12:20 <elliott> can't tell, laptop speakers, but it does seem so
19:12:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I use headphones and it makes it quite hard to hear when you only hear it on one ear
19:12:57 <elliott> Use mplayer or something to duplicate the channel :P
19:14:05 <elliott> SGEO WILL BE SO HAPPY
19:14:06 <elliott> http://learnyouahaskell.com/zippers
19:14:41 <Gregor> Now if only we all weren't fighting so hard to assure Sgeo's unhappiness.
19:14:50 <Vorpal> elliott, hm sadly this does not exist: https://github.com/git/git/git (also wtf at that 404 image)
19:15:08 <elliott> It's octocat.
19:15:10 <Vorpal> (looks like a cross between an octopus and hello kitty)
19:15:13 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hm3E2cGQE4
19:15:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, I did indeed say wtf about it
19:16:14 <elliott> Gregor: We make sure to kill Sgeo every day
19:16:32 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Now if only we all weren't fighting so hard to assure Sgeo's unhappiness. <-- what?
19:17:04 <Gregor> elliott: Oh shoot, now Vorpal's found out people are working to assure others' unhappiness, and soon enough he'll realize we're working to ensure his unhappiness too.
19:17:19 <Gregor> I MEAN, UH, NOTHING, HI!
19:17:21 <elliott> Let's kill them both.
19:17:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, yes I know you are all douchbags.
19:18:08 <Vorpal> but of course, it doesn't work.
19:18:08 <elliott> fail
19:18:24 <elliott> I've never put a douch in a bag.
19:18:31 <Vorpal> elliott, oh good point.
19:18:38 <elliott> Whooooooooooooosh
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19:19:01 <Vorpal> elliott, how is that a whoooosh?
19:19:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Finally, Debian finished installing.
19:19:10 <Gregor> How many of your anecdotes start with "So I was eating this baby when ..."
19:19:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Try goggling "douch".
19:19:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I know perfectly well it is probably a sexual joke
19:19:23 <elliott> ...
19:19:25 <elliott> YOU ARE STUPID
19:19:26 <Phantom_Hoover> First point of order: make the font nice.
19:19:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Font preferences, set hinting to Slight.
19:19:38 <elliott> Done.
19:19:42 <Gregor> Oh god more fontophiles nooooooooooooooo
19:19:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Avoid subpixel rendering; without Ubuntu's patches, it has obvious colour fringing.
19:19:56 <elliott> Gregor: Jesus christ it lasted four lines.
19:19:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I did notice my typo yes when you replied and decided to play along
19:20:11 <Gregor> elliott: You think I'm the messiah???
19:20:11 <elliott> Gregor: Even *Vorpal* has an opinion on what text hinting he likes, STFU
19:20:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: why, is nice subpixel rendering a dark secret known only to Canonical.
19:20:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, it's just that Debian are overly-cautious and Canonical don't care about US patents.
19:20:41 <elliott> They're expired now but whatever.
19:21:02 <elliott> Non-subpixel slight hinting looks fine, anyway, just takes a minute or two to adjust to.
19:21:28 * Phantom_Hoover has a slow, horrible realisation that he has no idea where the font preferences are.
19:21:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: System -> Preferences -> Appearance -> Fonts -> Details...
19:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, didn't notice the details thing.
19:23:26 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, the subpixel rendering looks fine for me, but I'm probably just blind.
19:25:26 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, at least on ubuntu firefox ignores that. You need to use ~/.fonts.conf for it
19:25:55 <Vorpal> err
19:25:57 <Vorpal> yeah
19:26:02 <elliott> Vorpal: No it doesn't.
19:26:07 <elliott> It used to, ages ago.
19:26:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Trust me, it can be very obvious when it wants to be :P
19:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Other things: what do I add to sudoers to let me use sudo?
19:26:40 <Vorpal> elliott, it still does on lucid iirc but now the defaults are what you want.
19:26:43 <Vorpal> so you don't notice it
19:26:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Works on Debian.
19:26:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You don't.
19:27:04 <Vorpal> elliott, perhaps.
19:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: I add myself to the sudo group?
19:27:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: System -> Administration -> Users and Groups -> Manage Groups
19:27:26 <elliott> Add yourself to sudo.
19:27:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: After that, I can tell you how to get the graphical tools using sudo as well and disable the root account password like Ubuntu; it's non-trivial.
19:28:10 <elliott> But basically:
19:28:13 <elliott> gconftool --type bool --set /apps/gksu/sudo-mode true
19:28:24 <elliott> cp /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/50-localauthority.conf /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/90-customauthority.conf
19:28:35 <elliott> Edit /etc/polkit-1/localauthority.conf.d/90-customauthority.conf and s/unix-user:0/unix-group:sudo/.
19:28:37 <elliott> Save.
19:28:41 <elliott> sudo passwd -d root
19:28:42 <elliott> sudo passwd -l root
19:28:43 <elliott> Reboot.
19:28:47 <elliott> Ta-daaaaaaaaaaaa
19:29:01 <elliott> Note: You need to log out and in again after adding yourself to the sudo group.
19:30:06 <Phantom_Hoover> What do the second and third commands do?
19:30:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, please quote them.
19:30:37 <elliott> It's unclear waht constitutes a command there :P
19:30:42 <elliott> *what
19:31:17 <Phantom_Hoover> The cp /etc/polkit... and, (OK, it's not a command), to edit /etc/polkit...
19:31:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That configures PolicyKit, which is like graphical sudo but ~capabilities~ and stuff.
19:32:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You know how in Ubuntu when you used Software Centre it prompted for your password, but not with the usual dim-screen-and-ask-for-password box?
19:32:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That's PolicyKit. In Debian it would ask for root's password instead. My change fixes that.
19:32:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I see.
19:33:55 <elliott> this could be a bit simpler to set up but it isn't :)
19:34:01 <elliott> Everything else is smooth.
19:34:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: By the way, my recommended mirror is the Swedish kernel.org mirror.
19:34:29 <Vorpal> elliott, policykit seems horribly overengineered
19:34:35 <elliott> mirrors.se.kernel.org
19:34:41 <elliott> Vorpal: it is, but you also don't have a choice :)
19:34:48 <Vorpal> elliott, sad
19:34:57 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, why do I need it?
19:35:01 <elliott> Vorpal: It's yet another one of the SELinux/AppArmour sillinesses, wherein people try and make Unix a modern OS and fail horribly.
19:35:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Because shit uses it :P
19:35:21 <Vorpal> elliott, it seems installed on arch too. And that doesn't use selinux or apparmour
19:35:32 <elliott> You installed Gnome or something.
19:35:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I do use gnome yes
19:35:38 <elliott> GNOME depends on PolicyKit I think.
19:35:42 <elliott> Indeed.
19:35:42 <Vorpal> but not gdm or such hm
19:35:53 <elliott> System -> Administration -> Users and Groups -> try and change something.
19:35:59 <elliott> It'll probably pop up a PolicyKit authorisation window.
19:36:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed).
19:36:16 <elliott> Account type's Change... button is a sure-fire authentication dialogue.
19:36:54 <Vorpal> elliott, actually nothing at all happens there
19:37:05 <Vorpal> I don't think policykit is actually configured and running
19:37:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it's Arch. You don't expect them to test how dependencies fit together, do you?
19:37:13 <elliott> Vorpal: policykit is not a daemon
19:37:17 <Vorpal> ah
19:37:18 <Vorpal> well
19:37:28 <elliott> I feel like such a freetard. Every program on my system is totally Free! I can't install non-Free software without enabling a clearly-labelled repository! I even have freaking Gnash installed!
19:37:36 <Vorpal> elliott, it could matter that I don't use gdm or such, I use startx
19:37:43 <elliott> no
19:37:46 <elliott> nothing to do with that
19:38:12 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I know that usb devices won't automount by default on here unless I use gdm
19:38:17 <Vorpal> I blame consolekit
19:38:37 <elliott> I blame international jewry.
19:38:46 <elliott> That and Ubuntu.
19:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, clarification: I blame consolekit because I'm 99% sure it is the cause :P
19:39:32 <elliott> You're not Jewish are you? *suspiciou
19:39:35 <elliott> *suspicious glare*
19:39:41 <Vorpal> :P
19:39:59 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Jew lol henry ford
19:42:28 <Vorpal> heh
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19:44:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I fear GNOME 3.
19:44:25 <elliott> Vorpal: GNOME Shell, no thanks. The question is, is the GNOME Panel still going to be maintained?
19:44:28 <elliott> If not... FORK TIME
19:44:48 <Vorpal> elliott, hm how does gnome 3 look?
19:44:48 -!- n1c0b has left (?).
19:45:00 <Vorpal> elliott, and gnome shell? is that the terminal?
19:45:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Just like GNOME 2 except... http://linux.softpedia.com/screenshots/GNOME-Shell_3.png
19:45:12 <elliott> Vorpal: That's what happens when you put your mouse in the top-left hand corner.
19:45:19 <elliott> Vorpal: The panel, ordinarily, looks just like the bit above.
19:45:29 <elliott> That replaces all the menus, etc.
19:45:31 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf
19:45:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, when will this be released?
19:45:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm going to have to switch to xfce
19:45:51 <elliott> Vorpal: GNOME 3, so 2011.
19:45:53 <Vorpal> and who knows for how long that will last
19:45:55 <elliott> Vorpal: No, gnome-panel will still be available.
19:46:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm 99.99999% sure of that.
19:46:14 <Vorpal> elliott, is it possible to make it look exactly like gnome 2 with clearlooks?
19:46:17 <elliott> Vorpal: The question is in the next few releases, if they try and stop maintaining it...
19:46:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, that *is* exactly GNOME 2 except with gnome-shell instead of gnome-panel.
19:46:42 <elliott> Vorpal: http://vimeo.com/13797705 Here's GNOME Shell "in action".
19:46:49 <elliott> (No flash yada yada not my problem blada blada)
19:47:02 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GrUtIEK1sk youtube version
19:47:23 <elliott> (Well, it's actually a mockup. But whatever.)
19:47:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and Ubuntu isn't going to use it.
19:48:04 <elliott> Vorpal: They're going to make their netbook interface Unity work on desktops too and use thati nstead.
19:48:29 <elliott> *that instead.
19:48:51 <Vorpal> elliott, with an option to not use it?
19:48:52 <Vorpal> elliott, or?
19:48:59 <elliott> Vorpal: And use what instead?
19:49:06 <Vorpal> elliott, oh my god
19:49:11 <Vorpal> elliott, when is this going to happen?
19:49:25 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: And use what instead?
19:49:30 <elliott> Vorpal: When is what going to happen?
19:49:38 <Vorpal> elliott, well, something that works like gnome 2
19:49:48 <Vorpal> elliott, when are they going to switch to that "unity" interface
19:49:51 <elliott> All your sentences are ambiguous.
19:49:57 <elliott> "with an option to not use it" -- talking about what
19:50:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, when GNOME Shell comes out. Because they don't like it.
19:50:14 <Vorpal> elliott, option not to use it = not use the netbook interface, I mean traditional gnome
19:50:19 <Vorpal> with the traditional panel
19:50:20 <Vorpal> and so on
19:50:34 <elliott> http://www.canonical.com/files/masthead/ubuntu-light/light.jpg this is what it looks like
19:50:46 <Vorpal> elliott, aaaargh
19:51:00 <elliott> Vorpal: It's actually funny how your only arguments about a terrible interface (GNOME Shell) are based on your terrible neural inability to handle the change of even a single pixel.
19:51:27 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I do think xfce looks nice and that doesn't look exactly like gnome
19:51:31 <elliott> By funny I mean that I was previously unaware that someone who thinks the right thing could somehow be more wrong than someone who thinks the wrong thing.
19:51:38 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, is it possible to make it look exactly like gnome 2 with clearlooks?
19:52:13 <Vorpal> elliott, exactly was there used in an inexact way
19:52:49 -!- wareya_ has joined.
19:53:07 -!- comex has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
19:53:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, is xfce likely to stay the same for the foreseeable future or?
19:53:23 <elliott> No, Xfce are merging with GNOME.
19:53:41 <Vorpal> elliott, joke right?
19:53:47 <elliott> No.
19:54:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:54:03 <Vorpal> elliott, [citation needed]
19:54:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:54:32 <elliott> I never said it was true.
19:54:38 <Vorpal> elliott, -_-
19:54:49 <olsner> I'm not joking, I'm lying!
19:54:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Argh, it doesn't have Japanese character support!
19:55:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You just don't have the fonts.
19:55:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: install ttf-takao
19:55:17 <Vorpal> elliott, ...
19:55:27 <elliott> What?
19:55:50 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:56:02 <Phantom_Hoover> So are you two fighting over how awful GNOME is?
19:56:11 <elliott> No.
19:56:17 <elliott> Vorpal is just being whiny and I'm trying to irritate him.
19:56:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, you *do* realise Xfce changes panel design all the time?
19:56:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Xfce 4.2: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Xfce-4.2.2.png
19:56:49 <Vorpal> elliott, you were whiny about the new gnome-panel replacement too!
19:56:50 <elliott> Vorpal: Xfce 4.6: http://iamrajendra.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/xfce46.png
19:57:01 <elliott> I wasn't whiny, I hate it because it sucks, you were just whining about everything that changed.
19:57:06 <elliott> Anyway, see above two images.
19:57:20 <Vorpal> elliott, so everything that changed sucked!
19:57:23 <Vorpal> elliott, same thing
19:57:31 <elliott> Anyway, see above two images.
19:57:34 <Vorpal> elliott, and yeah, I would dislike that
19:58:12 * elliott makes mental note: if gnome stops maintaining the panel and I take up maintaining it, don't tell Vorpal
19:59:08 <Vorpal> elliott, would fit your usual style
19:59:56 <Phantom_Hoover> But we can all agree that KDE is garbage, right?
20:00:06 <elliott> I'm more likely just to use the last gnome-panel release and keep updating the rest of GNOME if that happens.
20:00:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes indeed these days
20:00:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it used to be good
20:01:30 <Vorpal> elliott, hm twm stayed the same forever. Time to learn to love twm
20:01:35 <Vorpal> ;)
20:02:21 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, KDE 4 is a shitty UI.
20:02:36 <pikhq_> elliott: That looks more like a change in the defaults more than anything.
20:02:38 <Phantom_Hoover> All hail twm!
20:03:17 <elliott> pikhq_: It is.
20:03:22 <elliott> And so is using gnome-shell instead of gnome-panel.
20:03:39 <pikhq_> Fair enough.
20:03:57 <elliott> Gnash totally sucks
20:05:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It does.
20:05:21 <Vorpal> elliott, but it is FOSS!
20:05:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, and it sucks.
20:05:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I didn't deny that
20:05:45 <elliott> It does YouTube! Well, the audio doesn't lag if you're on a different tab, so there's that.
20:06:16 <Vorpal> elliott, slow computer?
20:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, YouTube is good enough for me.
20:06:40 <elliott> Vorpal: no.
20:06:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, it's not hot on the CPU, but Adobe Flash works just fine.
20:07:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Video/audio freeze for a split second every few seconds.
20:07:04 <elliott> In my experience.
20:07:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, problematic, but not quite *crippling*.
20:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the first video I tried has very quiet audio.
20:08:38 <Phantom_Hoover> This appears to be a general thing
20:10:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Check system volume? WFM
20:10:25 <Phantom_Hoover> My volume is at max, too; there's no obvious cause.
20:10:25 <elliott> Or YouTube volume :P
20:10:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: $ alsamixer
20:10:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, what is the system volume?
20:10:46 <elliott> In your top-right corner.
20:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, that's maxed.
20:11:04 <Vorpal> elliott, hm
20:11:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: $ alsamixer
20:11:13 <elliott> Worth a look.
20:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Also maxed.
20:11:30 <olsner> hurr durr
20:11:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, all of the controls in alsamixer are maxed?
20:11:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, there's something called "Speaker" I just maxed.
20:11:58 * Phantom_Hoover tries again.
20:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, much better.
20:15:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, laptop?
20:16:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
20:16:30 <Vorpal> explains why it had such a specific name, instead of, say, "line out" or "analogue out"
20:16:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also: just one speaker?
20:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> No, there were two controls.
20:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> They were tied, though.
20:17:40 <elliott> Uhh, presumably one control with two stereo channels :P
20:17:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, huh, not the left/right side of one thing in alsamixer?
20:17:48 <elliott> They're not tied if you use q and w or something.
20:17:57 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
20:18:03 <elliott> Interestingly my Master here is just one channel; it was two in Ubuntu.
20:18:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes, that.
20:18:31 <elliott> <H1>Forbidden</H1>Your client does not have permission to get URL <code>/search?q=x</code> from this server. (Client IP address:<br><br>
20:18:34 <elliott> Google don't like curl.
20:20:03 <coppro> lol
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20:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover_> Next point of order: change the theme to something nicer than Clearlooks.
20:22:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Grey Mist!
20:22:11 <elliott> curl -A Mozilla 'http://www.google.com/search?q=hello+world' | sed -n 's/.*resultStats>About \(.*\) results.*/\1/g;p'
20:22:13 <elliott> Work, dammit, work.
20:22:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Unity is quite nice, from the default installed ones.
20:23:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:24:13 <Vorpal> elliott, set the user agent to Mozilla
20:24:17 <Vorpal> ah wait you did
20:24:21 <elliott> Hurr :P
20:24:46 <elliott> Now tell my why my sed doesn't work.
20:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover_> Greedy regexes?
20:25:15 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you trying to do with it?
20:25:20 <elliott> oh wait
20:25:45 <elliott> Vorpal: what's the sed for "go to next line" again? :P
20:25:56 <elliott> Bleargh, I hate sed.
20:25:58 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, slipped my mind
20:26:10 <elliott> All I want is "if this substitution succeeds, print the line"!
20:28:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> Oh, no! The middle click doesn't work any more!
20:28:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: ...?
20:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover_> On Ubuntu, tapping the top-right corner of the touchpad middle-clicked.
20:29:29 <Phantom_Hoover_> It doesn't any more.
20:29:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover_: Go into Mouse preferences.
20:29:44 <elliott> There's probably something there.
20:29:56 <elliott> Maybe :P
20:30:54 <Phantom_Hoover_> Nope.
20:31:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
20:32:31 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/zDzYt.jpg this makes me want to succumb to the minecraft hype
20:35:14 <elliott> http://towardsdawns.blogspot.com/ This too.
20:36:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, gpointingdevicesettings?
20:36:22 <Vorpal> (might be missing some - in there)
20:36:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it can probably set that
20:37:15 <elliott> http://live.gnome.org/GPointingDeviceSettings
20:37:22 <elliott> "Today I decided to ask for adopter of GPointingDeviceSettings. The single reason is that I no longer have hardware (touchpad) needed to diagnose most of bugs which appear within it."
20:37:24 <elliott> Would help. :P
20:37:35 <Vorpal> elliott, heh :P
20:37:57 <elliott> Bah! That's it. I'm buying Minecraft.
20:38:16 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't manage to play the classical online either?
20:38:28 <elliott> Well I could. But the Alpha looks so nice.
20:38:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I never got the non-alpha to work :(
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20:38:53 <Vorpal> hm I could try on that non x86-64 perhaps...
20:39:47 <elliott> Vorpal: you need the sun jvm
20:40:59 <Vorpal> elliott, not openjdk?
20:41:21 <elliott> "Download Minecraft.jar, an executable jar file. It might work as-is.
20:41:21 <elliott> If you run into out of memory errors, try launching it with java -Xmx1024M -Xms512M -cp Minecraft.jar net.minecraft.LauncherFrame
20:41:22 <elliott> Also, please make sure you're running the Sun JVM... "
20:41:22 <elliott> for the alpha
20:41:26 <elliott> so i'd assume the same goes for classic too
20:41:39 <Vorpal> ah
20:42:08 <elliott> W T F "ehird" is taken
20:42:15 <elliott> oh wait
20:42:17 <elliott> it's me!
20:42:18 <Vorpal> elliott, except alpha worked up until login for me with openjdk
20:42:26 <elliott> Vorpal: you bought it?
20:42:40 <elliott> Hey, my account must be super-old... I must have registered this when Hideous told me about it, and that was in very early days...
20:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Alpha costs money, so presumably it won't let you in if you don't buy it :P
20:43:50 <elliott> Oh of *course* I remember when it was single-player only.
20:44:10 <olsner> minecraft dot ... jar!?
20:44:18 <elliott> olsner: It's written in Java :P
20:44:23 <olsner> eugh
20:44:38 <elliott> olsner: Winge winge winge, if it wasn't it'd be Windows-only.
20:45:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I decompiled minecraft alpha .jar btw. Pointless, it downloads another jar after logging in and getting a session token.
20:46:06 <Vorpal> java is after all easy to decompile
20:46:44 <elliott> heh, clever, auto-updates
20:47:17 <olsner> so you need to get your hands of the data directory of someone who's already logged in and downloaded the stuff
20:48:05 <elliott> olsner: and watch as it doesn't let you talk to the server because you're not authenticated
20:48:45 <olsner> just write your own server
20:49:05 <elliott> olsner: It's perfectly legal to use one of the third-party servers for free :P
20:49:07 <elliott> The server is up for download.
20:49:13 <elliott> So, congrats, you failed at rebellion!
20:49:34 <olsner> so then you just need to remove the checks from the downloaded jar you download
20:49:48 <elliott> ...??? Or just tell it to connect to a different server.
20:50:00 <elliott> I don't think olsner quite grasps how this works.
20:50:16 <olsner> oh, that easy? I thought it tried to authenticate the client before letting you in
20:50:28 <elliott> well, dunno; the server is up for download
20:50:35 <elliott> and so is the actual minecraft jar
20:50:45 <elliott> so one would assume you're allowed to just set up your own server
20:50:50 <elliott> especially as those already exist
20:50:57 <elliott> & i've heard friends saying they just use third-party servers
20:52:07 <elliott> Woo, single-player classic starts.
20:52:55 <elliott> Sweet, my card can't handle the AWESOME
20:56:21 <Vorpal> <olsner> so you need to get your hands of the data directory of someone who's already logged in and downloaded the stuff <-- yes
20:57:57 <Vorpal> elliott, would you send me the data dir? just for trying it out you understand. Since I can't get the classical version to work... If I can get it to work and like it enough to play it more than an hour or two I would buy it.
20:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, gyaah what version of Debian is this?
20:58:12 <Vorpal> but wasting that money without being able to test it first? nah
20:58:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, testing.
20:58:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Right now it is called "squeeze".
20:58:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is currently frozen; after squeeze's release, it will begin to be updated regularly again.
20:58:41 <elliott> Vorpal: You see, I would but I haven't bought it yet :P
20:58:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Making sure I can play it without ZOMGSLOW first.
20:59:07 <elliott> Vorpal: also surely you'd need a premium account on the server?
20:59:12 <elliott> it *is* a networked game after all
20:59:14 <elliott> i... think
20:59:38 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean *if* you buy it
20:59:46 <elliott> right
20:59:51 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't need a premium account except for downloading it
20:59:57 <Vorpal> you can play it offline after that
21:00:01 <Vorpal> by checking a box
21:00:39 <Vorpal> elliott, it says you have to login at least once but based on decompiling it decides you haven't logged in at least once due to the downloaded files missing
21:00:49 <elliott> heh
21:00:59 <Vorpal> elliott, unless the main jar have some additional checks, it should work fine
21:01:13 * elliott assumes distorted game music is due to appletness
21:01:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you got the applet to work?
21:01:23 <Vorpal> wtf
21:01:25 <Vorpal> elliott, how?
21:01:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Step 1. Install sun-java6-plugin.
21:01:34 <elliott> Step 2. There is no step 2.
21:01:37 <Vorpal> ah
21:01:51 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the partner repo right? it isn't in multiverse at least
21:01:58 <elliott> Vorpal: No, not partner.
21:02:02 <Vorpal> elliott, then where?
21:02:07 <Vorpal> elliott, on ubuntu
21:02:16 <pikhq_> Vorpal: SUCKS TO BE YOU.
21:02:19 <elliott> "non-free" :P I'm googling
21:02:26 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's in non-free on Debian.
21:02:30 <elliott> For Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, the sun-java6 packages have been dropped from the ...
21:02:32 <elliott> HA HA HA HA HA
21:02:36 <Vorpal> elliott, ouch
21:02:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Try just installing the icedtea plugin or something.
21:02:41 <elliott> It might work!
21:02:51 <pikhq_> Yeah, try that; should work just fine.
21:02:52 <Vorpal> elliott, well icedtea + openjdk did not
21:02:53 <Vorpal> hm
21:03:03 <elliott> Vorpal: the browser plugin may be a separate package
21:03:05 <Vorpal> ah
21:03:11 <elliott> it is with the sun JRE
21:03:25 <pikhq_> Weird that OpenJDK wouldn't work; it's almost exactly the same as the Sun JVM.
21:03:28 * elliott tries openjdk himself
21:03:38 <Vorpal> icedtea depends on openjdk
21:03:40 <Vorpal> -_-
21:03:53 <Vorpal> at least the package does
21:04:00 <elliott> And? :p
21:04:20 <elliott> Vorpal: icedtea is an alternative jvm for openjdk
21:04:21 <elliott> so.
21:04:24 <Vorpal> elliott, that means it will use openjdk, which doesn't work
21:04:26 * elliott icedtea6-plugin
21:04:35 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, that's all icedtea works with...
21:04:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Try icedtea6-plugin.
21:04:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I *tried* that
21:04:46 <elliott> Oh.
21:04:49 * elliott tries it
21:05:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Okay, yes, that doesn't work.
21:05:20 <elliott> Vorpal: What about the gcj jre? :p
21:05:29 <elliott> Which I doubt has a plugin.
21:05:31 <Vorpal> elliott, sun-java packages are in the partner repo on lucid. But not sun-java6-plugin
21:05:40 <elliott> Vorpal: probably one of them includes -plugin
21:05:43 <elliott> worth a try
21:06:00 <Vorpal> wait, I did a second u in aptitude and now it is there
21:06:00 <Vorpal> wtf
21:06:33 <Vorpal> makes no sense
21:08:32 <elliott> Bet it's less choppy in Chrome.
21:08:35 <elliott> The following NEW packages will be installed:
21:08:36 <elliott> chromium-browser chromium-browser-inspector{a} libv8-2.2.24{a}
21:15:41 <Gregor> pikhq_: HEY
21:15:43 <Gregor> pikhq_: HEY PIKHQ
21:15:49 <Gregor> pikhq_: GO LOOK AT ECONOMIST.COM
21:15:57 <Gregor> (Namely the doctype and MIME type)
21:18:39 * pikhq_ grabs a nuke
21:24:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Care to explain?
21:24:41 <Phantom_Hoover> text/javascript?
21:25:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, need to restart X server.
21:25:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:26:18 <Gregor> pikhq_: Kinda makes me look like small potatoes, DUNNIT
21:26:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:29:53 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: text/html for XHTML.
21:30:03 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: This is broken and people should make it stop.
21:31:02 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu.
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21:32:00 <elliott> pikhq_: Note: It's legal XHTML.
21:32:04 <elliott> Just not recommended.
21:32:10 <elliott> So you're actually saying "Work around browser bugs!".
21:32:14 <elliott> Not "follow the spec".
21:32:22 <elliott> (Okay, not legal XHTML 1.1. But nobody uses that.)
21:33:05 <pikhq_> elliott: It's legal XHTML, but it has a lot of brokenness.
21:33:20 <pikhq_> elliott: Mostly coming from how even XHTML-supporting browsers will use their HTML parsers on it.
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21:33:49 <pikhq_> elliott: And so there's a *lot* of invalid XHTML with an XHTML DTD and HTML doctype floating around.
21:33:52 <elliott> pikhq_: So your "graar things that are technically incorrect" argument LOSES because it's perfectly valid.
21:34:37 <pikhq_> elliott: Yes, it's valid, but broken.
21:35:01 <pikhq_> elliott: Because it gets treated as HTML, and HTML parsers allow for a lot of broken shit.
21:35:31 <pikhq_> elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML".
21:35:40 <elliott> <pikhq_> elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML".
21:35:47 <elliott> Thus breaking Postel's Law, one of the most important laws of the internet.
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21:36:25 <pikhq_> elliott: Also, it's invalid XHTML 5. :)
21:36:34 <elliott> <elliott> Thus breaking Postel's Law, one of the most important laws of the internet.
21:36:36 <elliott> <pikhq_> elliott: Whereas an XHTML parser would just say "fuck you" at the first sign of being non-well-formed, and so people wouldn't actually put out broken "XHTML".
21:36:37 <elliott> this
21:36:38 <elliott> is not an advantage
21:37:43 <pikhq_> elliott: Being leniant in what you accept has caused a *lot* of fucking problems on the Web. It's taking Postel's Law to Postel's Braindamage.
21:37:48 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
21:37:55 <elliott> pikhq: No, it's literally Postel's Law.
21:37:58 <elliott> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/08/postels-law
21:37:58 <elliott> http://diveintomark.org/archives/2004/01/14/thought_experiment
21:38:02 <elliott> The standard links I give to everyone about this.
21:38:10 <elliott> Read these, read all of these, and then don't stop until you have finished reading all of these two.
21:40:54 <Vorpal> elliott, so did you buy minecraft or?
21:41:03 <elliott> Vorpal: oh yeah i buy things immediately.
21:41:08 <pikhq> elliott: Problem: What people actually do is "if it's accepted by $USERAGENT, that's conservative enough." What I want is for web browsers to kick authors in the balls for that.
21:41:12 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm still trying to figure out if the sound thing would be easily fixable
21:41:24 <elliott> pikhq: Hi, I see you didn't read both of those links.
21:41:29 <elliott> Please read both of those links. Thank you.
21:41:42 <Vorpal> elliott, in minecraft? it works fine on this old x86-32 dell laptop with a pentium M!
21:41:50 <Vorpal> elliott, in the classic applet thingy
21:41:51 <elliott> Vorpal: linux sound sucks ass
21:41:55 <elliott> it's stuttery here
21:42:02 <Vorpal> elliott, ubuntu, pulseaudio alsa
21:42:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't care.
21:42:10 <Vorpal> pentium M
21:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, not even intel audio
21:42:19 <elliott> Intel audio here.
21:42:19 <Vorpal> some weird ac97 thingy
21:42:23 <elliott> That is the problem.
21:42:31 <elliott> pikhq: Also, perhaps meditate on this statement: "Just because I am a zealot, this does not mean that my zealotry should dictate how systems should operate, rather than far more important concerns."
21:42:42 <Vorpal> elliott, hm sound in applets work fine on my thinkpad with intel hd audio
21:42:50 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, the dell is intel. Just not intel hd
21:42:57 <elliott> Intel HDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD here
21:43:15 <elliott> Definition SO HIGH that LINUX HATES YOU
21:43:20 <pikhq> elliott: From those links, I get one thing: don't fucking use XHTML at all, because a conforming implementation should kick you in the balls if you fuck it up at all.
21:43:33 <pikhq> elliott: And you don't want to be kicked in the balls now do you.
21:43:40 <elliott> pikhq: Okay, so basically, removing the / before > makes Postel's Law okay again.
21:43:47 <elliott> pikhq: Even though there is no reason XML should behave differently to everything else.
21:43:52 <elliott> pikhq: Even though the only person who wanted it to was Tim Bray.
21:44:06 <elliott> Who unilaterally decided to break Postel's Law for no reason other than he wanted to, despite many complaints, in the formative days of XML.
21:44:21 <pikhq> elliott: Well, I'm in favor of deleting XML entirely, so...
21:44:22 <elliott> And yet -- if you remove that / before that > -- suddenly, your zealotry disappears and it's okay again.
21:44:25 <elliott> For no reason at all.
21:44:29 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I just installed sun vm on my thinkpad with intel hd, no stuttering
21:44:41 <Vorpal> usual sound quality for the built in speakers
21:45:01 <pikhq> elliott: See, here's the thing. XML is *supposed* to "always be entirely well formed". If you're unwilling to put up with that, fucking stop with the XML.
21:45:08 <elliott> pikhq: By the way, did I mention? Want SVG in HTML?
21:45:13 <elliott> pikhq: You have to use XHTML.
21:45:13 <pikhq> elliott: Or: TLDR; fucking stop with the XML.
21:45:16 <pikhq> elliott: HTML 5.
21:45:20 <elliott> pikhq: lolno
21:45:25 <pikhq> elliott: Lolyes.
21:45:31 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html
21:45:32 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml
21:45:35 <elliott> note how only the latter works
21:46:17 <pikhq> elliott: Invalid XHTML5 hooray.
21:46:26 <pikhq> elliott: He should be conservative in what he sends.
21:46:37 <elliott> pikhq: Care to give me a variation on the first file that works?
21:46:42 <elliott> Protip: you can't because only XHTML5 can do that.
21:47:08 <pikhq> elliott: HTML 5 has it in the spec.
21:47:13 <pikhq> elliott: Not my fault useragents don't have it.
21:47:18 <elliott> pikhq: Oh, and XHTML has text/html in the spec too.
21:47:23 <elliott> Yet you advocate working around browsers there.
21:47:32 <elliott> WHAT IS THIS? The zealot is hypocritical?
21:47:34 <elliott> No, never, surely not ...
21:47:36 <pikhq> elliott: XHTML 5 explicitly has it not in the spec.
21:47:57 <elliott> pikhq: Congratulations, you changed the topic to avoid answering my question.
21:48:55 <elliott> "This only works in XHTML 5." "Well, it's in the spec. It's the browser's problem." "But you strongly advocate not sending XHTML 1 as text/html, even though this is in the XHTML 1 spec, and it is just a browser workaround." "[CHANGE TOPIC TO SERVING HTML AS TEXT/HTML AND REFERENCE XHTML5 EVEN THOUGH THAT HAS NO RELEVANCE HERE]"
21:49:22 -!- augur has joined.
21:49:36 <Phantom_Hoover_> Fight! Fight! Fight!
21:49:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover__.
21:50:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover__ has changed nick to ________________.
21:50:13 <elliott> Ah, yes: "[implication that this is a meaningless flamewar]", the most effective way to make sure that it is impossible to claim anyone is right.
21:50:22 <pikhq> elliott: Okay. The problem is not in sending 100% valid XHTML 1 as text/html, the problem is that most people send out somewhat broken HTML with an XHTML DTD as text/html.
21:50:26 -!- ________________ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:50:30 <elliott> pikhq: Stop changing the subject.
21:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm not saying it's a flame war. It is a fight.
21:50:43 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, from what?O
21:50:57 <pikhq> elliott: Serving XHTML as text/html to serving XHTML as text/html?
21:50:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is an argument. There is a difference.
21:51:20 <Phantom_Hoover> A BORING difference!
21:51:22 <elliott> pikhq: SUBJECT 1: "SVG embedding only works in XHTML 5, not HTML 5." SUBJECT 2: "XHTML as text/html".
21:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> It's an intellectual fight¬!
21:51:27 <Phantom_Hoover> *!
21:52:03 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, subject 1. It *should* work in HTML 5. That it does not is a bug in the browsers.
21:52:07 <elliott> pikhq: You decided to disregard Subject 1 by replying that it is the browser's fault. I replied pointing out the inconsistency; as for subject 2, even with Gregor, who had perfectly valid XHTML served as text/html, you yelled at him to change the Content-Type. This is a workaround for a browser bug. But so is using XHTML 5 to embed SVG!
21:52:17 <elliott> So in Subject 1, you advocate not working around browsers.
21:52:23 <elliott> But in Subject 2, you VEHEMENTLY argue for working around browsers.
21:52:30 <elliott> You are, therefore, a zealot and a hypocrite.
21:53:09 <Gregor> A zealohypocrite.
21:53:21 <pikhq> elliott: By the way, nice job on showing me the *first* case of actually *gaining* something by sending XHTML as text/html.\
21:53:45 <pikhq> elliott: Seriously, I had no clue that there was any advantage at *all* over just using HTML.
21:53:58 <elliott> This is why http://intertwingly.net/ is XHTML 5.
21:54:18 <pikhq> elliott: Though in this case it's minor, because the only useragent without SVG support is also the only useragent without XHTML support.
21:54:41 <elliott> pikhq: ...so? The point is that XHTML 5 *does* have advantages over HTML 5, in practical use.
21:54:48 <pikhq> elliott: Such as?
21:54:52 <elliott> SVG embedding.
21:54:58 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html does not work.
21:55:01 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml works.
21:55:29 <pikhq> elliott: And the only user agent that wouldn't handle compliant XHTML 5 doesn't support the SVG embedding anyways.
21:55:48 <elliott> ...and?
21:56:02 <elliott> *The point is that your complete dismissal of XML is wrong because XHTML 5 has an advantage over HTML 5.*
21:56:09 <elliott> *I am not talking about Content-Types for once, for fuck's sake*
21:56:10 <pikhq> ... So it'll be broken even if you are liberal in what you send?
21:56:39 <elliott> ...??????????
21:56:52 <elliott> FORGET CONTENT-TYPES EXIST FOR A MOMENT (try saving these files to your computer first)
21:57:05 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.html is HTML 5, because it has no xmlns attribute in the html tag.
21:57:10 <elliott> http://burningbird.net/svg/example15-6.xhtml is XHTML 5, because it does.
21:57:17 <elliott> SVG embedding only works in the latter, in modern implementations.
21:57:18 <pikhq> XHTML 5 with the text/html doctype is invalid. You need to not be conservative in what you send in order to do that.
21:57:40 <elliott> (THUS THERE ARE NO CONTENT-TYPES)
21:58:14 <pikhq> Okay, so there are a lot of user-agents that fail at embedded SVG. Where are you going with this?
21:58:41 <elliott> they don't fail at it when it's xhtml 5
21:58:42 <elliott> jesus
21:58:47 <elliott> i'm saying that xhtml 5 has a reason to exist over html 5
21:58:57 <elliott> in reply to you saying that xml should just be forgotten about
21:59:20 <pikhq> elliott: That reason being that browsers are buggy?
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21:59:53 <pikhq> elliott: Seriously, SVG embedding *should* work 100% fine in HTML 5, but browsers have apparently not implemented it.
21:59:54 <elliott> Sure.
22:00:04 <elliott> Same with XHTML as application/xml+xhtml being preferable to text/html./
22:00:10 <elliott> It is the browser's fault but that does not make it irrelevant.
22:00:29 <elliott> Also, ironically, this works even when the XHTML 5 is transmitted as text/html, thus proving that browsers do *not* automatically treat everything sent as text/html as pure HTML.
22:00:35 <elliott> In this case, they treat it as XHTML 5.
22:00:54 <pikhq> Which is astounding. When they're allowed to they don't and when they're not allowed to they do.
22:01:21 <Gregor> MUAHAHAHAHA
22:01:25 <Gregor> You lose every argument FOREVER.
22:01:36 <pikhq> Though actually...
22:01:37 <elliott> pikhq: I think you will find that the HTML 5 parsing spec allows them to do it.
22:01:45 <elliott> Because it is, by definition, extremely liberal in what it accepts.
22:01:54 <elliott> Being that it accepts every byte string.
22:02:12 <pikhq> The behavior they're showing for the XHTML 5 *is* in fact exactly how it should work if interpreted as invalid HTML 5.
22:02:28 <pikhq> They just don't handle the case of valid HTML 5. That's... Amazingly stupid. :P
22:06:51 -!- Erofa has joined.
22:07:40 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIz3g7pdHDM
22:08:27 <pikhq> *Ah*.
22:08:34 -!- Erofa has left (?).
22:09:03 <pikhq> elliott: The HTML 5 with SVG embedded doesn't work in the version of Chrome that Debian ships with right now.
22:09:17 <pikhq> elliott: And it requires manual enabling for Firefox.
22:09:27 <pikhq> elliott: So, the way to get it to work: use a newer browser.
22:10:12 -!- Erofa has joined.
22:10:24 <pikhq> Can't tell you why it works using the HTML parser on XHTML though. Seriously, I got nothing.
22:10:36 -!- Erofa has left (?).
22:10:43 <pikhq> (Hmm. Maybe they try to parse it as XHTML then fail to the HTML parser?)
22:10:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
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22:19:01 <ais523> <elliott> Being that it accepts every byte string <--- even embedded NUL? even 9-bit bytes with the high bit set?
22:19:36 <pikhq> ais523: There's no such thing as a 9-bit byte.
22:19:50 <pikhq> ais523: But yes, U+0 is accepted by the parser.
22:21:16 <ais523> pikhq: there is a 9-bit byte, see, for example, the C standard, which allows arbitrary bytewidths >= 8
22:21:27 <ais523> and some systems actually use 9-bit bytes
22:21:29 <pikhq> ais523: Not on the Internet.
22:21:34 <ais523> OTOH, networks transmit in octets, so you'd have to be loading a local file
22:23:41 <elliott> back
22:26:03 * ais523 still puzzles about that while !times thing
22:26:11 <ais523> that is such a great bug, I want to know what caused it
22:26:42 <Ilari> What it did when you triggered that bug?
22:27:28 <ais523> Ilari: it was a bug report by someone else, in a closed-source MMO that has since been fixed
22:27:35 <ais523> it's just the ridiculousness of the bug that drove my curiosity
22:27:39 <ais523> let me try to find what I wrote
22:28:33 <ais523> <ais523> "sub f while !times 2 use spices endwhile endsub while !times 4 call f endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 2 while !times 4 use spices endwhile endwhile", "while !times 4 while !times 2 use spices endwhile endwhile" use spices 4, 3, 19, 5 times respectively
22:28:44 <ais523> that's the only info I had, but it's crazy enough to wonder what on earth is going on
22:29:16 <ais523> as a reference point, "while !times 5 use spices endwhile" would use spices 5 times; that's the intended use
22:29:39 <Ilari> No information what that piece of code actually did in buggy implementations?
22:30:14 <elliott> Ilari: hmm?
22:30:35 <ais523> Ilari: the bug was related to the nesting of while
22:30:45 <ais523> and the implementation of times
22:31:25 <Ilari> Ah, I think I understand what the bug actually is, but I haven't thought what could cause it.
22:31:38 <ais523> hmm, go for it, maybe someone else can take it back a level
22:32:31 <pikhq> elliott: Y'know what? Fuck HTML. We should go back to Gopher.
22:34:30 <Phantom_Hoover> You know what's absurdly hard?
22:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Retrieving my Evolution setup.
22:34:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Moving .evolution across did nothing,
22:37:31 <Ilari> I think it referes how many times spices are used if you run those code snppets. Looks like nested loops run totally wrong number of times...
22:39:37 <Ilari> And might not be simple bug, as it interacts with subroutine calls at well (both first and fourth should use the same amount, but they don't).
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23:07:47 <Sgeo> I was about to comment on something weird, then I realized I divided by 0.
23:07:51 <Sgeo> I want to comment anyway.
23:08:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Zuh?
23:09:25 <Sgeo> ∫0dx = 0∫dx = 0(x + C) = 0.. where'd the C go
23:09:50 <Sgeo> It's kind of clear that the division by 0 makes it screwy.. but not in a way that explains to me how the C disappeared
23:09:58 <Sgeo> There's no issue for any non-0 constant obviously
23:10:29 * Sgeo .. kind of imagines that it's a C that * 0 can be nonzero.. similar to how non-0 multipliers do it
23:10:38 <Sgeo> And that this somehow came about due to the division by 0
23:14:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, well, intuitively, the integral of 0 dx is a constant.
23:15:12 <Sgeo> Hence me asking where the C went
23:15:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FWIW, someone has posted a reversible life rule to the rule table repository.
23:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm investigating.
23:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Turns out I don't know how to compile Golly on Debian.
23:17:09 -!- iGO has joined.
23:17:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: No route to host).
23:18:46 * Phantom_Hoover installs more packages.
23:20:04 <Sgeo> I mean, clearly, for any non 0 n, ∫n dx = n∫dx = n(x+C) = nx + nC and nC is still just a constant
23:20:10 <Sgeo> Which we may as well call C
23:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Here we go.
23:20:20 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:20:25 * Phantom_Hoover investigates.
23:20:40 <Sgeo> wb pikhq
23:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> mkdir is failing; should I panic?
23:25:51 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:28:53 <Ilari> Failing with what error?
23:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover> "mkdir: error while loading shared libraries: libselinux.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"
23:30:49 <Phantom_Hoover> No, reinstalling libselinux1 does not help.
23:31:56 -!- cheater99 has joined.
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23:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Like most of my problems, it was my own fault.
23:36:23 -!- cheater00 has joined.
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23:43:15 <Sgeo> Note to self: Don't bother attempting to implement Factor in Second Life
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23:51:21 <elliott> http://www.w3.org/Provider/ServerWriter.html last modified 1995
23:51:25 <elliott> Here is a run-through of what is needed to make a www server , with examples from a suggested server for the HEPDATA base of Mike Whalley . See also etiquette .
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