00:00:59 <oerjan> elliott: well it is clearly a link to the FUTURE
00:01:10 <elliott> Deewiant: because it's an empty promise?
00:01:16 <elliott> it's not going to be a useful link for ages, so it's rather pointless
00:01:53 <zzo38> elliott: Your IRC client must have some way to enter another command to IRC server though, it depends on the client. The FLUSH command I implemented can take only one parameter anyways.
00:02:45 <Deewiant> The cost of linkifying is low compared to the potential uses; it might be unlinkified for a long time after the page goes up, which is a greater loss
00:04:11 * oerjan ponders making a joke page for Feather
00:07:27 <elliott> '''Feather''' is like... ''whoa,'' man...
00:07:58 <elliott> oerjan: psht, if you weren't an admin i'd ask for it to be deleted :D
00:11:10 <elliott> hm how many characters do you need to store an sha512 digest
00:16:24 <zzo38> Is there anything wrong with the C-LONG beer program?
00:18:14 <zzo38> And do you have anything to say about TeXnicard anyways?
00:20:41 <oerjan> elliott: that was some fast editing
00:21:15 <elliott> oerjan: i just clicked the red feather link and saw you'd already created the page :)
00:21:24 <elliott> one might even say ... SYNCHRONICITY
00:21:50 <elliott> (those who are swatted are switten)
00:22:12 <oerjan> elliott: heh. but you managed to do it between me saving the page and refreshing Recent Changes
00:22:29 <oerjan> which must have been less than half a minute
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00:45:00 <quintopia> this reminds me of mel brooks's luggage in space balls: http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/top-25-gawker-passwords
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00:47:34 <Ilari> Heh... Wonder why ping times on this LAN link are so asymmetric and growing: In the start the ping times were about 0.5ms and 0.6ms. Now those are about 11.0ms and 1.7ms (resp.)
00:49:16 <elliott> quintopia: "Top 25 Gawker Passwords"? Seriously?
00:49:29 <elliott> If writing "Top" and then a number was banned on the internet, I would be a happy man.
00:49:38 <oerjan> Ilari: gravitional time dilation. check if one of the servers has become a black hole
00:49:51 <elliott> it's literally, most popular
00:50:04 <Ilari> Aren't pings round trip times?
00:51:07 <Ilari> Anyway, there's factor of ~6 difference in round-trip times...
00:51:40 <Ilari> And variability between pings is very small...
00:52:11 <elliott> quintopia: erm are you sure ping times are divided
00:52:43 <elliott> quintopia: they're not, since they're round-trip times
00:52:53 <elliott> not sure why you said they were divided by 2.
00:53:26 <Ilari> It isn't time measurement drift: Starting another ping shows the same kind of RTTs.
00:54:36 <Ilari> Actually, both times grew at start, but now that lesser time appears to have reached saturation whereas the bigger one continues to increase...
00:56:44 <Ilari> Also, pings to IPv6 address of the same host are fast (~0.6ms).
00:59:04 <elliott> Gregor: http://sprunge.us/JYDZ Please tell me how silly I am.
01:00:16 <Ilari> BTW: IPSec slows down RTT by about 0.3ms. :-)
01:06:47 <Ilari> => IPSEC doubles the latency for me... :-)
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01:16:01 <zzo38> elliott: How close are you to the batsman?
01:16:08 <elliott> zzo38: I am the goddamn batsman.
01:16:33 <zzo38> elliott: The closer you are to the batsman, the more silly you are.
01:17:15 <Gregor> Must ... kill ... everyone ...
01:18:37 <zzo38> elliott: Two or four jokers, please?
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01:23:36 <Ilari> What's the minimum worst case bound for number of UTF-8 characters required to store SHA-512 hash? :-)
01:25:02 <elliott> Ilari: if they're all in ASCII range
01:25:25 <elliott> Ilari: well, presumably you mean the actual raw hash in base 256
01:26:55 <elliott> Vorpal: these look nice: http://www.retributiongames.com/quandary/
01:27:59 <elliott> Vorpal: heh i like this: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=46707
01:28:12 <zzo38> Please read this and tell me how crazy I did this: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/computer_cricket
01:30:19 <Ilari> Ah, not UTF-8 characters, but UTF-8 bytes. It seems the number is 72, 73 or 74.
01:30:52 <zzo38> The FPGA is no good unless there is sufficient public information available to create and upload the files to the FPGA without using any software you didn't write.
01:31:04 * oerjan thinks "minimum worst case" looks a _teeny_ bit oxymoronic
01:37:16 <elliott> zzo38: methinks many people would disagree ...
01:38:29 <elliott> because it's silly to say that?
01:38:57 <elliott> zzo38: because FPGAs are useful even without meeting that condition
01:39:49 <zzo38> But it is better if it does meet the condition I wrote.
01:40:29 <pikhq> I love not studying for finals.
01:40:57 <elliott> pikhq: "Laziness + weak hash tables + dynamic scope + side effects = heisenbug. Made a race condition look like an off-by-one error."
01:41:03 <elliott> pikhq: Anyone who can combine these things is a god among men.
01:41:13 <elliott> (And then FIGURE OUT what a bug involving them is.)
01:41:22 <zzo38> Did you read my other message? Do you think the umpire is really a vampire?
01:41:23 <pikhq> elliott: Oh holy mother of god.
01:52:36 <elliott> pikhq: Please recommend me an alternative to /r/programming that isn't Slashdot.
01:54:58 -!- quintopia has changed nick to RadioBotStreams.
01:55:27 -!- RadioBotStreams has changed nick to quintopia.
01:56:41 <elliott> yeah, but I generate most of the links in #esoteric... from /r/programming :)
01:56:46 <elliott> I want something where I don't have to do the filtering work, dammit!
01:58:04 <quintopia> you are looking for programming-related news links?
01:58:36 <elliott> quintopia: pretty much... although more a CS bent
01:58:41 <elliott> but yes, programming links.
02:00:06 <Ilari> That minimum worst case is actually well defined. Consider all functions that map all 2^512 SHA-512 hashes to UTF-8 strings. For each function f, there is maximum number of bytes in resulting UTF-8 strings (L(f)). Now what is the minimum of L(f) over all possible choices of f?
02:01:51 <quintopia> elliott: start going to conferences :P
02:02:31 <elliott> quintopia: that costs rather more money than the £0 I currently spend on programming links, involves a lot more travelling that probably doesn't fit into my life, and involves a lot more boredom and time passing, too
02:02:37 <Ilari> It is at most 74 because one can split 512 bits into 74 blocks of 7 bits each, and one can encode each block using a single ASCII character (which is subset of UTF-8).
02:02:54 <quintopia> elliott: but you'll always be on the bleeding edge of CS news
02:03:20 <elliott> quintopia: i can get the same from reading random arxiv papers, I want a filter, dammit
02:03:39 <quintopia> (more seriously, there aren't many places out there where you don't have to separate the signal from the noise yourself...even conferences have some crap)
02:04:08 <Ilari> The lower bound of 72 comes from the fact that entropy of UTF-8 is ~7.1756 bits per byte, giving lower bound of ~71.353 bytes (which rounds up to 72 bytes).
02:04:30 <elliott> quintopia: yes, but /r/programming is significantly worse than it used to be.
02:05:52 <quintopia> elliott: figure out who is making it worse and get them kidnapped by ethiopian pirates?
02:06:25 <elliott> your solutions, always so practical.
02:10:48 <Ilari> Okay, I computed the exact low bound: 73.
02:11:05 <elliott> Quadrescence: sure, it is generally better than reddit -- but on the other hand, it's coated with the startup mindset
02:11:31 <elliott> quintopia: meaning, lots of stupid business articles I don't care about, lots of rubbish startup-related things I don't care about, and more links than I'd like to WEB 2.0 crap
02:11:36 <elliott> (WEB 2.0 is shouted there.)
02:12:30 <elliott> "Facebook intern visualizes friendships, draws world map" "HN: We're starting a "Move to Silicon Valley" wiki. We could use some help." "The Anatomy of a Perfect Landing Page" "Commute to work like a boss, fly there" <-- first things on the current front page that i really don't care to see
02:12:37 <elliott> quintopia: i mean, the programming links are better than reddit's. and the comments too.
02:12:54 <elliott> quintopia: but there's more completely-unrelated-to-programming crap than /r/programming, and it's more irritating than reddit's non-programming crap
02:13:02 <quintopia> elliott: write a simple software filter on top of their rss feed :P
02:13:21 <elliott> quintopia: unfortunately i have not yet written a program to classify the topic of statements from their text by interpreting them
02:14:15 <quintopia> i know someone who has. he implemented it from another paper, and is sending me a writeup on wed.
02:14:51 <quintopia> classifies with 97% accuracy in a 3-fold cross-validation
02:15:56 <elliott> quintopia: "Commute to work like a boss, fly there" -- how on earth would you classify this is "non-programming"
02:16:10 <elliott> it's near the level of AI to identify that as non-programming without also filtering out a lot of programming links
02:16:58 <quintopia> well, you'd need to look at the actual article
02:17:08 <quintopia> it takes a certain number of features
02:17:30 <elliott> quintopia: i doubt i could get past a paywall.
02:17:43 <elliott> quintopia: you realise that classification algorithms are not a new thing?
02:17:50 <quintopia> elliott: could you get past a paywall anyway?
02:17:55 <elliott> they won't categorise Hacker News for me.
02:18:04 <elliott> quintopia: i'm saying that it's pointless mentioning it without linking the paper
02:18:17 <quintopia> no, but if you take a significant subset of HNews and classify it manually, then they can
02:18:36 <Ilari> For SHA-256, the similar number is 37. And for Skein-1024, 144.
02:19:07 <elliott> Ilari: what about cubehash :)
02:19:11 <Gregor> elliott: So have you renamed it to scape🐐 yet?
02:19:32 <quintopia> i meant, your learning algorithm would need to look at the actual article linked from HNews in order to get enough data to classify
02:19:44 <elliott> quintopia: that would eat my bandwidth :)
02:20:04 <quintopia> ...how often do new articles get posted?
02:20:30 <elliott> quintopia: way more often than that, they just don't all get promoted to the front page
02:20:47 <elliott> quintopia: i don't want it using my bandwidth when i'm not viewing it, anyway!
02:20:50 <Gregor> elliott: TOO VARIOUS IF YOU ASK ME
02:20:53 <elliott> so it'd have to do it all at once --> slow
02:20:58 <Ilari> Oops, 36 (256 bits), 72 (512 bits) and 143 (1024 bits)... :-/
02:21:00 <elliott> Gregor: maybe if you write some code for it i'll CONSIDER it
02:21:24 <quintopia> elliott: best to have it hosted on a remote server then :P
02:21:33 <elliott> quintopia: or just keep reading reddi
02:22:19 <Gregor> elliott: How about if I just register goatpettingzoo.com and don't put goat porn there?
02:22:30 <quintopia> elliott: does that mean you're gonna stop whining about /r/programming's slow decline?
02:22:49 <elliott> quintopia: can you link to clog log dates when i have whined about it?
02:22:56 <elliott> OH RIGHT there's actually only one and it's today.
02:23:49 <quintopia> but complaining about something when you're not willing to work to improve is useless even if it's only once
02:24:02 <elliott> quintopia: what am i expected to do, start my own fucking site?
02:24:11 <elliott> i said that /r/programming is going to shit and *asked for alternatives*
02:24:25 <elliott> no, i already have a design for a reddit-based site and it relies fundamentally on nobody knowing about it
02:24:28 <quintopia> yes, but there are no alternatives :P
02:24:35 <elliott> quintopia: then just say that?
02:24:42 <elliott> quintopia: you whine about me whining way more than i actually whine
02:25:22 <elliott> quintopia: well, it's the same order of magnitude
02:25:47 <zzo38> Do you know what yakitori penalties are?
02:26:03 <Ilari> Restricting to BMP doesn't change the figures (36/72/143).
02:26:40 <elliott> Ilari: why on earth are you calculating this :)
02:26:49 <Ilari> Just for fun... :-)
02:27:23 <Ilari> And it is considerably easier than computing the exact expression for the entropy of UTF-8 bytes. :-)
02:28:16 <zzo38> Ilari: What is the entropy of UTF-8?
02:28:19 <Ilari> Since you need to solve one root of 4th degree polynomial (that doesn't have rational root) for that...
02:29:02 <elliott> Ilari: BAH! Throwing things at Wolfram Alpha solves all problems.
02:29:08 <quintopia> ...just expressing the polynomial and saying which root it is would be an exact expression, nay?
02:30:33 <Ilari> The polynomial is x⁴-128x³-1920x²-61438x-1048544=0 and the root in question is the root in the interval [128,256].
02:32:25 <Ilari> Take base 2 logarithm of that and you get the entropy in bits per byte.
02:33:03 <elliott> oerjan: fuck you, i was just doing that :)
02:33:07 <elliott> "solve x⁴-128x³-1920x²-61438x-1048544=0, 128 <= x <= 256"
02:33:29 <oerjan> elliott: i happened to have a src0 function in one of my haskell files
02:34:15 <elliott> Ilari: 7.1756 bits of entropy per byte
02:34:18 <elliott> oerjan: ha i did the last step before you
02:34:37 <oerjan> elliott: only because i didn't even try, PHHH
02:34:39 <zzo38> Can anything have negative or complex number entropy?
02:35:00 <elliott> oerjan: what sound are you trying to express :P
02:35:02 <oerjan> zzo38: not in this sense
02:35:02 <elliott> zzo38: no. well negative maybe.
02:35:10 <elliott> if it's a black hole, say :D
02:35:11 <zzo38> oerjan: No, it is PPHHHPHPHHHPPHPHPHPHHHPPHPHPHPPHPHPHPHPPHPHPHPHPH
02:35:37 <oerjan> is it called a raspberry sound?
02:36:13 <zzo38> What is the sound of one raspberry clapping?
02:36:19 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_a_raspberry
02:37:13 <quintopia> wow. someone sold a web app for $350? lol
02:37:32 <elliott> quintopia: i was offered IIRC $20 for the source to my digg#1 site :P
02:37:51 <oerjan> zzo38: although physically entropy might very well be negative given that afaik the zero point is an arbitrary choice
02:37:59 <elliott> (this being before digg went to shit... well ok it had gone to shit but not as much as it have now)
02:38:11 <oerjan> but informational entropy is not that way
02:38:46 <zzo38> oerjan: But what I mean is, can negative informational entropy have some meaning?
02:38:47 <oerjan> the macroscopic thermodynamic version of entropy only speaks of changes in it, not an absolute scale, iirc
02:39:18 <zzo38> Make a esolang with negative (or complex number) informational entropy.
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02:40:15 <zzo38> Please tell me what should belong in the "Multiball mode" section and "Alien abduction" section, and what things are wrong with the "Physics" section.
02:40:19 <oerjan> i know that entropy for FSA's is always non-negative, since it's a solution of a non-negative matrix maximal eigenvalue
02:40:55 <elliott> oh god http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ConversationalChaff whoever wrote this is a horrible person and knows way too much about people :)
02:41:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Would a negative entropy esolang have to be uncomputable to work? Or not?
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02:42:09 <elliott> oerjan: and why do you want to include syntactically invalid commands in your IRC server?
02:42:11 <elliott> oerjan: the babies demand to know
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02:42:45 <Gregor> <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowing_a_raspberry
02:42:46 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't think uncomputability helps, really
02:42:50 <Gregor> I hope the raspberry at least buys you dinner.
02:43:40 <oerjan> you'd rather need some esoteric concept of information to calculate the entropy of, i think
02:44:22 <oerjan> there _is_ of course such a thing as quantum information theory which i know almost nothing about, i don't know if it has any nonnegative entropies
02:45:05 <oerjan> elliott: the babies cannot demand anything, i ate them all
02:45:27 <oerjan> i already _told_ you they were tasty
02:45:49 <zzo38> Does the people who wrote the RFC of IRC know why?
02:46:31 <oerjan> zzo38: i would be surprised if they even were aware of my existence
02:46:52 <elliott> oerjan: THEY SEE EVERYTHING
02:49:27 <zzo38> elliott: Do they see my IRC server?
02:50:20 -!- daniel has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2).
02:50:26 <zzo38> Do they see invisible people?
02:51:04 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguolabial_consonant
02:51:33 <oerjan> (the r proves IPA has a symbol for _everything_)
02:53:04 <zzo38> Now make a language that has all the sounds of IPA, and a few new ones that are impossible for any people to ever speak.
02:53:38 <elliott> oerjan: i would like to meet someone who can pronounce all of IPA
02:54:14 <zzo38> elliott: Do you even know of any such people?
02:55:00 <elliott> zzo38: no, i'm not sure it's possible :)
02:55:21 <elliott> there's probably two sounds in there that are impossible to pronounce with the same mouth, like it can only learn to use one and then it can't do the other
02:57:29 <zzo38> Make the game with a monster with two mouth
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03:28:01 <pikhq> In other news, AIDS has been cured.
03:39:13 <oklofok> http://www.cureaidsinfo.com/ <<< oh so actually it was done in the 80's already
03:39:49 <oklofok> and apparently, once you've cured your aids at home, you can take up a new hobby & learn a new language
03:40:34 <pikhq> oklofok: Bone marrow from someone immune to it!
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03:40:56 <pikhq> Aaand Pidgin is crashing.
03:41:04 <pikhq> In its JSON parser‽
03:41:07 <pikhq> Why does it have one?
03:42:20 <oerjan> pikhq: that's not news
03:43:08 <pikhq> oerjan: No, but seriously. AIDS has been cured.
03:44:09 <oerjan> ...more than one person?
03:44:44 <Iwnda01> not to butt in but, there is no cure for aids.
03:45:28 <pikhq> oerjan: No, but only due to the expense.
03:46:03 <pikhq> It's fucking hard to hunt down a bone marrow donor that is genetically immune to AIDS, and this happened by chance.
03:46:12 <pikhq> Iwnda01: Yes there is.
03:46:12 <Iwnda01> not true. it's because HIV morphs so often it's apparently impossible to kill.
03:46:30 <oerjan> Iwnda01: do you even know the case we are talking about?
03:46:48 <Iwnda01> this would all be news to me.
03:46:49 <pikhq> Iwnda01: Bone marrow transplant with someone actually *immune* to the virus.
03:47:01 <pikhq> Iwnda01: Suddenly, all the immune cells in that person's body are immune to the virus.
03:47:06 <pikhq> And so HIV goes away.
03:47:10 <pikhq> Poof, cure for AIDS.
03:47:53 <coppro> There are people genetically immune to AIDS
03:47:53 <pikhq> He was named only as "the Berlin patient" in the /New England Journal of Medicine/ and /Blood/.
03:47:58 <Iwnda01> and how would we find out if they are immune without infecting them and/or possibly killing them in the long run
03:48:07 <coppro> you can devise a simple test
03:48:24 <oerjan> pikhq: i am pretty sure i saw a reddit post about him giving an interview under the full name
03:48:28 <Iwnda01> oh i see, remove the fluids and test out of the body
03:48:55 <Iwnda01> well he's got a trillion dollar body if he lives through all of the operations.
03:49:17 <pikhq> Iwnda01: About 1% of Caucasians are immune to it, actually.
03:50:14 <Iwnda01> are they making any headway with it?
03:51:13 <pikhq> Research on easier/cheaper ways of doing it are in progress.
03:51:39 <pikhq> And yes, a single person, who by *chance* needed a bone marrow transplant (leukemia), and his donor was immune to AIDS.
03:51:42 <oklofok> so we can finally have start having unprotected buttsex with strangers
03:51:44 <oerjan> http://www.aidsmap.com/page/1577949/?r=1 is the link currently on reddit
03:51:44 <pikhq> As I said earlier.
03:52:27 <Iwnda01> oklofok: that's looking at it with a hawks eye
03:52:34 <oerjan> oklofok: well you'd need to find an immune bone marrow donor first
03:52:59 <oerjan> Iwnda01: i think you may not be acquainted with oklofok's particular brand of humor
03:53:04 <oklofok> not really, you have like 50 years to do that once you get the virus
03:53:19 <Iwnda01> no i totally get him. i was just seeing which he was
03:54:04 <oerjan> oklofok: yeah but what if there _aren't_ any? compatible donors are probably rare, immune people are rare...
03:54:38 <oklofok> actually this one time, doctors told me i absolutely must have chlamydia, but then turned out i didn't; my conclusion is i'm immune to all std's
03:54:57 <Iwnda01> oklofok: you're in tall cotton
03:55:13 <oklofok> Iwnda01: what does that mean?
03:55:18 <Iwnda01> I, oklofok, am also the king pin.
03:56:23 <Iwnda01> I guess I don't get you either
03:56:30 <pikhq> oerjan: Uh, bone marrow donors are always compatible.
03:56:37 <pikhq> oerjan: They start by removing your immune system.
03:56:58 <pikhq> The new bone marrow replaces it.
03:57:06 <oerjan> pikhq: oh they are? i guess that makes sense.
03:57:30 <oerjan> pikhq: in that case it should be possible to _grow_ immune bone marrow, shouldn't it
03:57:41 <oklofok> i thought they stick a needle in the donor's back, take some shit outta there, and inject it in the other dude
03:58:29 <pikhq> oklofok: After irradiating & chemotherapying the receiver of the marrow to kill the bone marrow and the white blood cells.
03:58:55 <oklofok> pikhq: have you even *watched* house?
03:59:10 <oklofok> because that sounds just crazy!
03:59:19 <pikhq> oklofok: I don't watch House, no.
03:59:33 <pikhq> oklofok: I prefer knowing how medicine actually works.
04:00:04 <Iwnda01> plus house has a terrible attitude
04:00:27 <oerjan> `addquote <pikhq> oklofok: I don't watch House, no. <pikhq> oklofok: I prefer knowing how medicine actually works.
04:00:45 <HackEgo> 249) <pikhq> oklofok: I don't watch House, no. <pikhq> oklofok: I prefer knowing how medicine actually works.
04:01:00 <oklofok> pikhq: what, you trust a dusty old ugly book more than SMART MEDICAL TYPE PEOPLE on tv?
04:01:24 <Iwnda01> judge not the book by its dusty ugly cover
04:01:41 <oerjan> oklofok: hey you cannot trust anyone who's been spending time with blackadder
04:01:44 <pikhq> oklofok: ^ This explains the entire American political, intellectual, and cultural climate.
04:02:09 <Iwnda01> but judge the book once you read it thoroughly.
04:02:16 <oklofok> i learn all my math on numb3rs
04:03:08 <oerjan> pikhq: words to live by
04:03:19 <pikhq> oerjan: More like words to die by.
04:03:30 <pikhq> "/me is in the middle of seppuku"
04:03:36 <oklofok> Iwnda01: show about... well no idea what but they have funny clips on youtube
04:03:53 <oerjan> ok words to live by, very briefly
04:04:21 <oklofok> some sort of hacking stuff probably.
04:04:34 <pikhq> oklofok: It claims to be about math.
04:04:51 <oerjan> pikhq: which means it's probably about arithmetic?
04:05:06 <pikhq> oerjan: No, it's about BULLSHIT.
04:05:28 <pikhq> oerjan: Imagine if Treknobabble were done using mathematics jargon.
04:05:37 <oklofok> "hey let's make a show where people do like REALLY BIG SUMS MENTALLY and all teh math ppl will luuuuurb it"
04:06:16 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ Also, this.
04:06:24 <oklofok> "we have to calculate the topological invariant to find the kleene closure of this klein vierergrouppe!"
04:06:47 <pikhq> "It's how hackers chat when they don't want to be overheard."
04:06:51 <oerjan> oklofok: hey no fair i was about to write some mathobabble myself!
04:07:07 <oklofok> you can still do it, it's funny twice
04:07:08 <pikhq> (it would, of course, take a *complete* moron to use IRC to be secretive.)
04:07:14 <pikhq> (SILC, perhaps, but IRC?)
04:07:51 <oklofok> SHIPPING CHANNELS IN THE OCEAN
04:07:57 <oklofok> that's actually the only clip i know
04:08:09 <oerjan> ...does 1337 have any interesting mathematical properties?
04:08:50 <pikhq> oerjan: No, it's an incredibly mundane substitution cypher.
04:09:33 <oklofok> "OMG OMG THIS WILL BE OVER IN A SECOND" "SCREENSHOT QUICKLY BEFORE THE INFORMATION IS GONNEEEE"
04:09:39 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F3-j-GQcts&feature=related OH MY GOD THAT HURTS
04:10:05 <oerjan> !haskell [n | n <- 2:[3,5 .. 40], 1337 `mod` n == 0]
04:11:55 <oklofok> pikhq: i'm so confused i don't even know if that was a correct description
04:11:57 <oerjan> hypothesis: 1337 is the smallest uninteresting number
04:12:25 <pikhq> oklofok: It was a bizarre mangling of the Chinese Room thought experiment and the Turing Machine.
04:12:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Making it an interesting number.
04:12:37 <oklofok> yeah i'm still not sure what happened there
04:12:58 <oklofok> the chinese room experiment is ... which is called the turing test
04:12:59 <pikhq> oklofok: EXPLAINING THE JOKE MAKES IT FUNNIER
04:14:46 <oklofok> okay so yeah he just mentions perfectly programmed computer = turing test while explaining the chinese room experiment... i think
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04:15:21 * oklofok looks for halting test clip
04:16:33 * oerjan clips a halting test onto oklofok
04:17:52 <oerjan> I MOST DEFINITELY AM NOT ON STRIKE
04:19:14 <oklofok> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCinK2PUfyk <<< "i doubt you studied it *the usual way*!"
04:20:46 <pikhq> oklofok: The pain! The agony! The wrong aspect ratio!
04:21:02 <oklofok> "math math math math math math math. now let my use my brain to calculate the probabilities."
04:21:33 <oklofok> i love this show, it's like watching puppies fighting to death
04:21:41 <oklofok> you know it's really wrong
04:21:55 <pikhq> It seems to be so bad it's good.
04:34:24 <oklofok> okay i can't find any math related clips
04:34:28 <oklofok> maybe i should watch the whole show
04:34:50 <oklofok> the math guy has written articles in low-dimensional topology, so probably he talks about that stuff
04:35:26 <oerjan> yeah but only in a flat and linear way
04:36:16 <oklofok> noob, i work almost exclusively with 0 dimensional spaces
04:36:57 <oklofok> although i guess you did as well, but couldn't make a pun out of that
04:37:18 * pikhq prefers dealing with n-dimensional spaces where n is in N and less than 0.
04:37:28 <pikhq> (quick, someone make that make sense!)
04:37:39 <oklofok> there are many definitions of topological dimension
04:37:47 <oklofok> and i'm not sure any of them allow subzero dimensions
04:38:01 <oerjan> oklofok: iirc many of them coincide for zero, though
04:38:41 <oklofok> i know this fact very well because many of the ppl doing math in our uni are actually computer scientists, they don't even seem to care what the definition is, because they just work with 0 dim
04:38:47 <oerjan> well you can consider the empty set to have dimension -1
04:39:22 <oklofok> with the recursive sphere definition at least
04:39:33 <oklofok> dimension = dimension of sphere + 1
04:40:37 <oklofok> what else is there.... d dimensions = open covers have a subcover where at most d+1 sets intersect at any given point
04:41:02 <oklofok> i think i'm getting an erection
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04:41:21 <oklofok> i think i'm getting an erection
04:41:30 <oerjan> i believe that definition was the one used for the topological measures stuff
04:41:50 <oklofok> we used that in our ergodic theory seminar couple weeks ago
04:41:56 <oerjan> (you need dimension at least 2 for things to be non-trivial)
04:42:15 <oklofok> for showing something like topological entropy = sup of measure theoretic entropies for different measures
04:42:51 <oklofok> "<oerjan> (you need dimension at least 2 for things to be non-trivial)" <<< what do you mean?
04:43:23 <oklofok> i don't think that subcover thing is "trivial" for 1d
04:44:04 <oklofok> and for 0 it says that you can extract a clopen cover from any open cover... is that even true?
04:45:01 <oklofok> i certainly didn't know that if it's true
04:45:33 <oklofok> maybe it's for *refinements*
04:45:57 <oklofok> yeah obviously you can't always extract clopen covers
04:46:11 <oklofok> just take more than half the space in two open sets, but not all of it
04:46:17 <oklofok> then obv you need to take both, and get some overlap
04:46:23 <oklofok> for any definition of half
04:47:14 <oklofok> refinement being a family of open sets U such that each u \in U is a subset of an open set in the orig cover
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04:48:13 <oklofok> also why am i here, i woke up at 5 so i could do some slides and then i just idle on irc
04:48:15 <oerjan_> 05:42 oerjan> at one time i _thought_ i had a proof that if you had dimension >= 2 then you _did_ have nontrivial topological measures but it didn't survive my blackboard demonstration :/
04:48:20 <oerjan_> 05:44 oerjan> ...what does that entropy supremum (i think i recall the theorem) have to do with dimension...
04:48:34 <oklofok> with leasurely topology technobabble
04:49:17 <oklofok> okay what's your definition of topological measure
04:49:25 <oklofok> because zero dimensional spaces have very nontrivial measures!
04:50:15 <oerjan_> ...i've explained it before, they're a topological generalization of lebesgue measures, which are only defined on open and closed sets
04:51:04 <oerjan_> and which only need to be additive on partitions of the whole space into open and closed sets
04:51:26 <oklofok> you mean into clopen sets?
04:52:05 <oerjan_> and only finitely many (although we have a theorem that countable also works)
04:52:11 <oklofok> so you say this thing is trivial for 0 dim and i assume the definition assumes a zero dimensional space :D
04:52:26 <oerjan_> this thing is trivial for <= 1 dim
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04:52:40 <oklofok> (by assuming you meant clopen partition)
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04:52:53 <oerjan_> that is, all the examples become lebesgue measures
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04:54:06 <oklofok> okay, but so what's the exact definition, any function to positive reals that's finitely additive on partitions into closeds and opens?
04:54:30 <oklofok> i'm sure you've explained this before, so sorry about having absolutely no recollection :P
04:54:32 <oerjan_> also it should be continuous
04:54:57 <oerjan_> the measure of an open set is the supremum of the measures of closed sets inside
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04:55:35 <oerjan_> the additivity means that the dual also holds
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04:56:02 <oklofok> then i believe you but let's see
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04:56:37 <oerjan_> in the basic theory the space is compact, connected and locally connected
04:56:39 <oklofok> i don't know why i had to think about that
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04:57:05 <oklofok> i almost never get to see such spaces
04:57:20 <oklofok> sometimes they are connected, sometimes they are compact, but never both!
04:57:44 <oklofok> wait connected doesn't imply locally connected?
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04:58:00 <oklofok> i don't know what it means but
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04:58:49 <oklofok> i'd say locally connected is a very weird term for that
04:58:50 <oerjan_> standard example is the space of {(x, sin (1/x)) | x > 0} union 0 x [-1,1]
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04:58:58 <oklofok> neighborhood basis of connected sets
04:59:06 <oerjan_> connected, compact, but not locally connected
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04:59:30 <oklofok> i proved that's connected but not path connected in topology
04:59:39 <oerjan_> otherwise it's not compact
05:00:02 <oklofok> it's not path connected obv
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05:00:22 <oerjan_> indeed but it's not locally connected e.g. around (0,0)
05:00:23 <oklofok> but it's OBVIOUSLY connected
05:01:00 <oerjan_> because you need the entire height of the curve to connect different parts of it
05:01:38 <oklofok> i mean i get it intuitively, but i'll have to think about the defs a bit
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05:02:26 <oklofok> right you can't get ANY open set around origin
05:02:54 <oklofok> locally connected doesn't imply connected? erm. of course it doesn't, disjoint union
05:03:19 <oklofok> you know this conversation of ours would already make a pretty good tv show
05:05:20 <oerjan_> anyway the strange properties of these measures depends on it _not_ being possible to approximately partition any open set into small open or closed parts that you can add up
05:05:41 <oklofok> and then all the youtube comments would be like "lol that's SO inaccurate, what he's saying is so totally only true if the measure has no atoms!"
05:06:26 <oerjan_> but dimension <= 1 is equivalent to saying every open covering can be refined into a partition of the space into open and closed sets
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05:07:24 <oerjan_> (btw this theorem doesn't use any of the connectedness assumptions on the space)
05:07:51 <oerjan_> those are just needed to be able to construct examples nicely
05:08:22 <oklofok> hmm, i don't see why that thingie is true, but i suppose that's nontrivial?
05:08:32 <oklofok> okay if it's dimensions 0 and 1, then i'm sure it's nontrivial
05:08:48 <oklofok> because i don't know any properties those have others don't :d
05:09:02 <oerjan_> take that usual refinement of a dimension <= 1 space, then by definition the open sets only intersect at most 2 at each point
05:09:13 <oklofok> for this to be a great tv show
05:09:22 <oklofok> we need like a really stupid fbi guy
05:09:46 <oklofok> "so you're saying a locally connected spaces is like a rabbit that sticks its head into a bush when it gets scared?"
05:11:23 <oklofok> okay walk me through it, how exactly do you make the partition
05:11:55 <oerjan_> now if you look carefully at this refinement, the points that are in two given sets are of course in the open set that is their intersection
05:12:11 <oklofok> take open cover's intersections with all others, plus it minus the union of all the others?
05:12:44 <oklofok> okay so walk me through it, how do you make the partition
05:13:19 <oerjan_> on the other hand, the points that are in just _one_ given open set of the refined cover and not in any other, form a closed set
05:13:35 <oklofok> or continue your explanation whatever :D
05:13:37 <oerjan_> (the complement of the union of the other open sets)
05:13:50 <oklofok> are you explaining exactly this...
05:14:09 <oklofok> i assumed you assumed i'd just see it
05:14:20 <oklofok> because it sounded so simple
05:14:33 <oerjan_> it's not hard if you draw the sets on paper
05:14:58 <oklofok> and flying numbers on the screen
05:16:07 <oklofok> "<oerjan_> on the other hand, the points that are in just _one_ given open set of the refined cover and not in any other, form a closed set" <<< this was the part i didn't see, but yeah it's obvious now that you stated it explicitly
05:16:23 <oerjan_> they form a bipartite graph, with the closed sets for the points in exactly one refinement set being one set of vertices, and the open sets for the points in _two_ refinement sets the other set of vertices
05:16:25 <oklofok> "<oerjan_> (the complement of the union of the other open sets)" <<< and even more obvious after you gave the proof
05:16:44 <oerjan_> and edges between sets that touch
05:18:19 <oklofok> that's true for all partitions gotten this way?
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05:19:42 <oklofok> what's the definition of touch?
05:19:47 <oerjan_> well you could alternatively say edges between sets that come partially from the same original refinement set
05:20:03 <oerjan_> but i believe that is equivalent
05:20:11 <oerjan_> touch = their closures intersect
05:20:18 <oklofok> by "original refinement set" you mean "original set"?
05:20:45 <oerjan_> well we started with an arbitrary open cover and than used the dimension to refine it
05:21:42 <oerjan_> and then this refined cover pretty directly gives this graph of open vs. closed vertices
05:26:07 <oklofok> take [0, 1] with cover [0, 5), (0.4, 0.6), (0.5, 1], then (0.4, 0.5) and (0.5, 0.6) have intersecting closures even though both are intersection sets
05:27:39 <oerjan_> you only test open sets for touching closed sets
05:27:53 <oklofok> oh so then it's basically by def
05:28:02 <oklofok> coppro: are these some sorta election thingies
05:29:40 <oklofok> oerjan_: wait where were we going with this graph thing?
05:29:51 <oklofok> i should prepare for this talk thingie
05:30:30 <oerjan_> well the graph is just a side thing
05:31:01 <oerjan_> but the thing is, this allows us to partition the whole space into tiny open and closed sets
05:31:22 <oklofok> http://www.math.utu.fi/projects/jac2010/program.html <<< look i'm famous!
05:32:14 <oklofok> we had this really fun partition lemma in our seminar on beuhahrug spaces (i may remember the name wrong)
05:32:23 <oerjan_> and if you make them small enough, the measure of any larger open set can be approximated as sums of tiny sets within... but in the limit this forces the measure to be a lebesgue measure.
05:33:17 <oklofok> this topological measure thing
05:33:35 <oerjan_> johan aarnes, the advisor of my collaborator alf rustad
05:33:58 <oerjan_> originally he called it quasi-measures
05:34:04 <oklofok> right, guessed it was you ppl's or you wouldn't be the ones doing this basic research on it
05:34:13 <oklofok> or is it called basic research
05:34:21 <oklofok> fundamental essentials research
05:35:47 <oklofok> i used to define a lot of different things (used to meaning it was last months theme) but in the end i just always realize it's a known concept in disguise, so now i just try to take concrete problems others have stated and solve them
05:36:38 <oerjan_> his original example of a quasi-measure was created as a counterexample to a conjecture
05:36:51 <oklofok> of course that only works if you're willing to go far enough that open problems become solvable :D
05:37:16 <oklofok> yeah i guess that's the sensible way to come up with new things
05:37:27 <oklofok> mine is usually more like LET'S TAKE THIS RANDOM THING AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS
05:37:32 <oerjan_> about the linearity of certain functionals on C(X)
05:38:07 <oerjan_> (the measures are equivalent to certain functionals that are almost, but not necessarily quite linear)
05:38:34 <oerjan_> if they _are_ linear then they are lebesgue measures
05:39:32 <oklofok> i suppose a measure gives you the functional "integral"
05:40:28 <oklofok> i know too little about this stuff
05:40:53 <oerjan_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riesz_representation_theorem#The_representation_theorem_for_linear_functionals_on_Cc.28X.29
05:41:19 <oklofok> i know the basic riesz repr theorem
05:41:35 <oklofok> that linear functionals are dot products
05:41:37 <oerjan_> it's that linear <=> lebesgue, in our case
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05:42:37 <oerjan_> however the "almost but not quite linear"
05:42:50 <oklofok> well i don't know what a "lebesque" measure is, as an adjective
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05:43:01 <oklofok> a measure defined on... lebesque sets? :D
05:43:37 <pikhq_> In the UK, you have to be over 18 to buy... Plastic cutlery.
05:43:45 <oerjan_> for every function f in C(X), look at the sub-algebra C(f) generated by it. then the functional should be linear on it
05:44:41 <oerjan_> note that C(X) is _real_ functions. if we were looking at _complex_ functions, then indeed this requirement _would_ force the entire functional to be linear. i think this was an old theorem.
05:45:06 <oerjan_> and the conjecture which aarnes disproved was that this would hold for real C(X) as well
05:45:21 <oerjan_> oh the functional should be positive too
05:46:12 <oerjan_> the theory _has_ been generalized to signed measures/non-positive functionals too, in fact one of our articles was about it
05:48:30 <oklofok> my thinking went C... durrr... complex.
05:49:20 <oerjan_> now C here is for continuous i think
05:49:24 <oklofok> all my theorems are really boring in comparison
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05:49:53 <oklofok> i'm aware that i also think that's where it probably comes from.
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05:53:19 <pikhq> There is a restaurant with ninja waiters.
05:53:49 <oerjan_> but are they _french_ ninjas?
05:54:04 <pikhq> Halfway there, though!
05:54:07 * oerjan_ assumes pikhq got the reference
05:54:21 <pikhq> Why else do you think I was going "YES" so much? :)
05:54:42 <oklofok> i didn't get the reference
05:55:24 <oklofok> pikhq: tell me something in japanese!
05:55:26 <oerjan_> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1100/fv01076.htm
05:55:27 <pikhq> oklofok: You. Read Freefall.
05:56:05 <oklofok> oh that one, i recall seeing that furry chick
05:56:07 <pikhq> oklofok: あんた。フリーファル読め。
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05:57:16 <pikhq> A more casual form of あなた.
05:57:24 <oklofok> i don't even completely get the sentence :(
05:57:31 <pikhq> "You. Read Freefall."
05:58:03 <oerjan_> wait oklofok knows japanese?
05:58:06 <oklofok> we haven't done any of the short forms
05:58:16 <pikhq> oerjan_: He's taking a class.
05:58:20 <pikhq> oklofok: I *told* you.
05:58:31 <oklofok> shall is something more japanese
05:58:46 <pikhq> oklofok: Also, not doing the short forms of verbs first is a travesty.
05:58:57 <oklofok> pikhq: told me what? i got the sentence already if that's what you mean
05:59:11 <pikhq> oklofok: I told you not to take a formal class because it would be slow!
05:59:22 <oklofok> pikhq: i think so too, because i see them all the time and i understand nothing outside the class therefore
05:59:50 <pikhq> oklofok: The thing is, the short forms of verbs are the *actual root forms*. The conjugation goes from there.
06:00:12 <pikhq> But nooo, classes insist on teaching the teineigo conjugations.
06:00:14 <oklofok> also we've only done like 70 kanji
06:00:25 <pikhq> (-masu, -desu, etc.)
06:00:31 <oklofok> so i don't even officially know the kanji for "read"
06:01:01 <oklofok> and no one fucking ever uses them, at least in the shows i've tried to start watching
06:01:08 <pikhq> See, that's horrifically wrong, and you will have to unlearn things.
06:01:22 <pikhq> The teineigo forms are very commonly used in normal Japanese, but *it's the wrong thing to learn first*.
06:01:46 <pikhq> (shows tend to use more casual Japanese than is otherwise normal, for a variety of reasons.)
06:02:37 <oklofok> even the "quick japanese for business dudes" book does masu only, it just skips telling the basic forms of the verbs! :D
06:02:54 <oklofok> cuz it's faster to just learn masu and not ru + masu!
06:02:57 <pikhq> The worst part is, verb conjugation in Japanese is *really easy* if you start from the plain forms.
06:04:28 <oklofok> well, i'll probably take the second course anyway, it's not like i'll have enough free time next year to actually be able to study it on my own.
06:04:36 <pikhq> But no, they insist on using the teineigo forms first so that you'll be less rude if you somehow find yourself talking to someone in Japanese after 6 months of taking the class.
06:04:52 <pikhq> Even though by that point you'll have trouble saying anything at all because they suck so hard.
06:04:55 <oklofok> hopefully the unlearning i have to do occurs there
06:05:31 <oklofok> i think i could *easily* have a conversation about how good fish tastes.
06:05:38 <oklofok> sakana wa oishii desu yooo
06:06:05 <oklofok> i should learn to write japanese on the computer, maybe.
06:06:27 <pikhq> 魚が美味しいですが、僕にはカレーが一番美味しい事だと思います。
06:06:42 <oklofok> sorry, that's outside my kanjibility
06:07:38 <pikhq> さかなが おいしい ですが、 ぼくには カレーが いちばん おいしい だとおもいます。
06:08:17 <oklofok> fish is good but you find curry the best
06:08:26 <pikhq> And, yeah, if you keep up with the classes, you will be permanently illiterate.
06:08:59 <oklofok> heh, probably. i'm not keeping up with the classes, i assure you 90% of our class couldn't read taht.
06:10:05 <pikhq> Uh, it's a fairly complex particle.
06:10:27 <pikhq> But the sentence comes out as "Though fish is delicious, I think curry is the most delicious."
06:10:59 <pikhq> Seriously, you would be significantly better off spending all the time you would have on that class just watching anime without subtitles. *That alone* would be a massive improvement.
06:11:24 <oklofok> but i don't find that as entertaining as a monotone lecture
06:12:10 <oklofok> hmm, anime without subtitles might not be such a bad idea, watching it with subtitles isn't doing me much good at least.
06:12:25 <oklofok> because after a few minutes i stop listening
06:12:32 <pikhq> Yeah, the point is to *not* cling to the language you're fluent in...
06:13:13 <oklofok> and still, for some reason i've always used subtitles for learning purposes.
06:13:31 <oklofok> i guess that's intuitive as well
06:14:29 <oklofok> is "to" always used with omoimasu?
06:14:45 <oklofok> see i just know omoimasu from the dictionary...
06:15:08 <oklofok> i've never actually seen it in a sentence before
06:15:39 <oklofok> and why do you say boku *ni*?
06:15:53 <oklofok> is that also omoimasu's fault?
06:16:00 <pikhq> I'm... Not entirely sure, actually.
06:16:19 <pikhq> The grammar of Japanese has gotten a bit automatic.
06:16:37 <pikhq> The "ni" got added because that conveyed the sense I wanted. Somehow.
06:17:35 <pikhq> It's kinda got a sense of "*But as for myself*, ..." in this context, I guess?
06:17:40 <oklofok> maybe it's a bit like "X ni aimasu", like me as a person
06:18:10 <oklofok> i just know it's a human postfix thingie
06:18:23 <pikhq> I suggest you just do Japanese often enough that everything happens without thinking about it.
06:18:29 <oklofok> as well as a couple (million) other things
06:18:43 <oklofok> OR HOW ABOUT I ANALYZE IT UNTIL IT GETS A RESTRAINING ORDER?!?
06:18:57 <pikhq> No, don't. You'll never get good if you do that.
06:19:14 <oklofok> yeah, that was what the restraining order meant
06:19:33 <pikhq> Much like you'll never get good at math by taking elementary/middle school/high school math courses.
06:19:34 <oklofok> well. actually it's not really a good metaphor
06:19:49 <oklofok> true. or even just by taking any courses.
06:20:17 <pikhq> You at least have a *chance* of getting good at math when you study for a math degree.
06:21:14 <pikhq> But below college? "You, too, can learn how to do everything that we have calculators for, but didn't when the curriculum was designed!"
06:21:49 <pikhq> (don't get me wrong, manual calculation is a nice skill and all, but it really doesn't deserve to be a focus of *12 fucking years* of education.)
06:22:11 <oklofok> and done completely wrong, too
06:22:38 <oklofok> well. i guess it's an okay way to teach it to people who don't want to learn it.
06:22:45 <pikhq> The pacing on them is absurd.
06:23:58 <pikhq> Arithmetic should *not* take several years to teach.
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06:28:26 <pikhq> And I'd like to beat whoëver designed the handling of fractions in primary education.
06:28:47 <coppro> pikhq: May I join you?
06:29:00 <coppro> pikhq: I'm a math major
06:29:12 <pikhq> coppro: What are your thoughts on "improper" vs. "proper" fractions?
06:30:15 <pikhq> Oh, who am I kidding. I know your thoughts on them. "WHY THE FUCK IS THAT A DISTINCTION"
06:30:24 <coppro> pikhq: my thoughts on fractions are: teach pure fractions first. decimal notation etc. can come later
06:31:01 <oklofok> improper/proper fractions is like 4 3/8
06:31:24 <coppro> it is not wrong to draw a distinction
06:31:29 <oklofok> i'm a math major and i totally think that's not a distinction, in most contexts. not this one.
06:31:41 <coppro> it is, however, very very wrong to teach it so heavily like they do
06:31:49 <pikhq> coppro: The worst part is the notation used.
06:31:54 <coppro> especially because the notation is 4 3/8 which later on means 3/2
06:32:02 <pikhq> 2¾ looks to me like 6/4, not 10/4.
06:32:42 <pikhq> Because dammit, that's how it's used anywhere outside of elementary school.
06:34:02 <pikhq> Also strange is the insistence on things like using the LCD for adding/subtracting fractions with different denominators.
06:34:24 <oklofok> prolly, in elementary school, there should be separate classes for set theory, arithmetic, and problem solving
06:34:31 <pikhq> How often is it going to matter that you picked the *smallest* common denominator?
06:34:51 <oklofok> so that math could take 3 times more time slots
06:35:13 <oklofok> set theory is the most important thing in the world
06:35:29 <coppro> yeah, I've just heard lots of suggestions about elementary school education
06:35:32 <coppro> and set theory was never one of them
06:35:37 <coppro> totally agree now that you think of it
06:35:44 <oklofok> we used to have that here, in the 70's or something
06:35:54 <pikhq> coppro: They tried it in the 70s. Problem: it was the same teachers.
06:36:06 <oklofok> the profs think those that was good, because students were not retarded back then, because of that
06:36:08 <pikhq> Y'know, the ones that think that calculus is the highest that math goes.
06:36:19 <coppro> pikhq: oh, I had one of those in high school
06:36:25 <oklofok> unfortunately the ones that didn't become profs, and had normal idiots as teachers, probably didn't have the same idea
06:37:45 <oklofok> i wouldn't exactly drop arithmetic out, at least the ppl who aren't going to learn anything interesting anyway learn to count their money :D
06:38:00 <pikhq> Probably the worst part of primary/secondary math education is that it hardly ever touches on something very fundamental to the practice of mathematics.
06:38:22 <pikhq> oklofok: Yeah, I don't think it should be *omitted*, I just think it's taught far too slowly and they put far too much of a focus on it.
06:38:31 * coppro needs to remember to follow up with the people here who go through math+teaching
06:39:11 <oklofok> coppro: what do you mean "go through"?
06:39:32 <coppro> oklofok: math+teaching is a program here
06:39:50 <oklofok> we have something like that too, prolly every uni does
06:40:16 <oklofok> basically if you're good you do pure math, if you suck real bad you become a teacher
06:40:31 <oklofok> i'm not being an ass, it really is like that
06:41:05 <pikhq> The US system has you get a degree in education.
06:41:14 <pikhq> Voila, you are magically qualified to teach everything.
06:41:24 <pikhq> Why? Because fuck making sense.
06:41:42 <coppro> oklofok: Yeah, we have a degree in education too. Except this program is a BMath + BEd program, so the teachers come out knowing nonzero math
06:41:43 <pikhq> (in high school, you *might* start getting teachers with more qualifications. Maybe.)
06:41:44 <oklofok> i had this religious nut as a teacher through 3-6 grade who didn't know anything about anything
06:42:00 <oklofok> she knew a lot of bible stories
06:42:09 <coppro> pikhq: in my experience, it wasn't /quite/ so bad
06:43:07 <oklofok> coppro: the teachers have to learn stuff like group theory here too, it's just they pass the relevant courses with bad grades and forget the few things they memorized rote after the course.
06:43:36 <coppro> there's also a pure math with teaching option program
06:43:49 <oklofok> what i said there is partly conjecture, have to admit
06:44:00 <coppro> the requirements are actually far looser, but due to the requirement of pure math courses, basically no one goes through with it
06:44:09 <coppro> someone who does probably knows math properly
06:44:15 <oklofok> but anyway, come on, they don't actually need it, the actual facts *will* be useless to them
06:44:30 <oklofok> it's the way of thinking that you'd like them to have
06:44:55 <coppro> you want them to pass it on
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07:04:36 <Sgeo> I need help going to sleep
07:05:03 <Sgeo> Should not have watched a let's play of an apocalyptic flash game
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07:06:55 <quintopia> (It didn't render my bibliography!)
07:07:32 <quintopia> do i need to do latex bibtex latex before htlatex?
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07:28:03 <quintopia> Gregor: oh nvm, doing all the latexing and bibtexing and whatnot made it render the bibliography right
07:42:13 <Ilari> I suppose seeing large amounts of string APNIC in listing of >250k blocks allocated last month is not a good thing...
07:43:12 <Ilari> Well, unless your sensibilities are warped certain way... :-)
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07:44:03 <Ilari> APNIC: 3.19 /8s in RIR Pool
07:44:17 <Ilari> About 1.2 /8s to go...
07:45:03 <Ilari> That is about 20 million IP addresses...
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07:54:14 <Ilari> 9 210 368 addresses allocated this calender month. If this rate continues, X day is somewhere mid-January...
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08:09:54 <Ilari> Heck, if one makes pie chart of IPv6 pools + allocated, the slice for allocated isn't even visible...
08:10:06 <Ilari> (well, it is 0.027% anyway...)
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09:55:11 <fizzie> Seems that elliott's favourite algorithm evar, CubeHash, is not going to become SHA-3: http://crypto.junod.info/2010/12/10/sha-3-finalists-announced-by-nist/
09:58:44 <Ilari> Blake, Grøstl, JH, Keccak and Skein...
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10:02:57 <Ilari> Seriously, that name containing the ø is pain to type...
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10:04:01 <Ilari> CubeHash seemingly has too much symmetry anyway...
10:12:33 <fizzie> They say they'll publish a proper report on why each algorithm was accepted or not.
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10:14:22 <fizzie> One more year of public comments, and then deliberations in 2012; they're probably going to get the standard published just before the end of the world.
10:15:51 <zzo38> I want to make a program to handle compile errors of the C compiler, and then it changes the source-file and resubmit to the compiler. Example: #errorhandler no_member(register_value,is_number) _register_value_is_number
10:16:54 <zzo38> Another example: #errorhandler no_member(something_else,) _something_else_bind
10:20:03 <zzo38> You can have various kind, such as: no_member, wrong_initializer, pointer_expected, function_expected, no_label, link_error, ...
10:21:43 <zzo38> fizzie: What standard is that? Are you sure 2012 is the end of the world?
10:22:27 <fizzie> SHA-3, and no, but it's often said to be.
10:25:55 <zzo38> I have just finished playing a game titled "Square Circle". You do have to make a square circle in that game. They say you commit a crime that you are not allowed to know, but you can be freed if you make a square circle. But this is all a lie made up by the government.
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10:54:40 <Ilari> That "2012" end of the world is a complete misinterpretation of Mayan mythology. The dates don't even start to require 6 symbols (that's sometime in 4xxx or so)... :-)
10:56:50 <Ilari> Apparently somewhere in end half of 48th centry...
10:59:27 <zzo38> Do you understand how to make a square circle?
11:01:35 <Ilari> The Unix time_t to beginning of that day (in UTC) is 88 447 248 000...
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11:06:05 <fizzie> Ilari: I don't see what 6 symbols would have anything to do with it; the world was also supposed to end in 2000 (also for non-y2k-computer-related reasons) and that's equally much just the most significant digit changing.
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11:15:11 <Ilari> Seems like the year mayan calendar starts to require six symbols to represent dates is 4772...
11:16:24 <Ilari> And yes, some writings contain six-symbol absolute dates.
11:16:25 <zzo38> nooga: Use these definitions of "square" and "circle":
11:16:26 <zzo38> Circle: A figure bounded by a circumference every point of which is equidistant from the centre.
11:16:30 <zzo38> Square: A figure bounded by four equal straight lines, each of equal length, such that the four angles between adjacent sides are also equal.
11:16:36 <zzo38> Straight Line: A one-dimensional figure forming the shortest path between two points.
11:16:47 <zzo38> Now can you figure it out?
11:17:08 <fizzie> Ilari: The dreaded Y4772 problem, for all of us who stupidly allocated memory space for only five symbols in our Long Count using date systems.
11:18:00 <Ilari> And then there's thing called distance dates. Some writings have absolutely huge distance dates.
11:19:22 <Ilari> Oh, and that day happens to be Friday the 13th... :-)
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12:11:57 <Ilari> Oh, the more pessimistic estimate is back at January (30th).
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12:23:33 <elliott> analysis of dynamic programs proves they're not dynamic at all: http://gnuu.org/2010/12/13/too-lazy-to-type/
12:24:07 <elliott> "I was under the impression most people understood that 99% of stuff that happens in Ruby or Python could be done with practically no modification in a statically typed language with good enough type inference. Still, it's only 99%. The remaining 1% would be a serious pain to do with static types, which is why even the stalwart of static types, Haskell, has Data.Dynamic in case you really do need to stick arbitrary types somewhere."
12:24:09 <elliott> meanwhile, over on reddit,
12:24:25 <elliott> someone defends people using something awkward and problem-causing in 99% of the cases and helpful in 1%
12:24:39 <elliott> and then demonstrates a case that's helpful and robust in 99% of the cases and slightly fiddly in 1%
12:25:23 <elliott> 01:55:11 <fizzie> Seems that elliott's favourite algorithm evar, CubeHash, is not going to become SHA-3: http://crypto.junod.info/2010/12/10/sha-3-finalists-announced-by-nist/
12:25:31 <elliott> fizzie: Yup, I found out N days ago.
12:26:04 <elliott> fizzie: It was probably just rejected because they felt "nervous" about it as they say was the case for some algos their press release; presumably djb's black clothes and piercing stare stabbed right into their soul.
12:26:16 <elliott> Deewiant: Please, follow me around on the internet establishing upper and lower bounds for my placeholders.
12:26:41 <elliott> 02:04:01 <Ilari> CubeHash seemingly has too much symmetry anyway...
12:27:03 <elliott> Ilari: Sorry, but I don't consider a one-line IRC statement more reliable than an excellent cryptographer :-)
12:27:34 <elliott> 02:25:55 <zzo38> I have just finished playing a game titled "Square Circle". You do have to make a square circle in that game. They say you commit a crime that you are not allowed to know, but you can be freed if you make a square circle. But this is all a lie made up by the government.
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12:28:23 <elliott> 03:17:08 <fizzie> Ilari: The dreaded Y4772 problem, for all of us who stupidly allocated memory space for only five symbols in our Long Count using date systems.
12:28:28 <elliott> fizzie: Convince me not to write a library that does this.
12:28:37 <elliott> Or, no, wait! Get ais523 to put it into AceHack.
12:28:43 <elliott> Although he'll probably find that it /already/ has some of that.
12:28:45 <Deewiant> 02:25? Are you in the USA now?
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12:30:39 <elliott> Deewiant: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.12.14
12:30:50 <elliott> But yes, I'm in the army, brutally mauling puppies.
12:31:10 <elliott> Why I joined the /US/ Army to do that is anyone's guess.
12:31:12 <Deewiant> Right, didn't notice you joined.
12:31:33 <elliott> Deewiant: Or, in other words, no, but clog is in the US.
12:31:41 <elliott> Presumably it mauls puppies in a brutal fashion over HTTP.
12:32:49 <Deewiant> Alternatively, it doesn't denote AM/PM and is somewhere in Russia.
12:33:45 <elliott> Deewiant: Thank you, I vastly prefer that interpretation.
12:34:00 <elliott> Deewiant: Presumably "23:59:59" at the end of yesterday's log is 23:59 am.
12:34:44 <Deewiant> Earth does have 4 corner simultaneous 24 hour days, you know.
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12:35:10 <elliott> Deewiant: Do you just have a bank of possible references to reply to almost any statement? :-P
12:35:12 <elliott> [[1.5 Lua seems very verbose. Why isn't it like C?
12:35:12 <elliott> The compactness of C (and the Unix environment in which it grew up) comes from the technical limitations of very clunky teleprinters. Now we have tab completion and smart editors which can do abbreviations, so it doesn't really take more time to type Lua than C.]]
12:35:20 <elliott> I like how they don't bother mentioning *reading* the code at all.
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12:55:29 <elliott> `addquote <oklofok> i love this show, it's like watching puppies fighting to death <oklofok> you know it's really wrong <oklofok> but oh god <oklofok> you can't stop watching
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13:13:19 <elliott> ais523: btw, re: should the first revision contain an empty / directory, I'm not sure; shouldn't the first revision add that?
13:13:25 <elliott> (to continue an hours-old conversation...)
13:13:39 <elliott> ugh, [[cpio]] has an infobox just titled "cpio" that lists information for GNU cpio
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13:17:43 <elliott> ais523: "For instance, the size of the cloned git repository (all history, branches, tags, etc.) for the Linux kernel is approximately the size of the checked-out uncompressed HEAD, whereas the equivalent checkout of a single branch in a centralized checkout would be the compressed size of the contents of HEAD (except without any history, branches, tags, etc.)."
13:17:52 <elliott> ais523: wikipedia suggests (to me) that git compresses everything
13:18:01 <elliott> so perhaps it /does/ have multiple copies of Linux in there, just compressed
13:18:08 <elliott> and probably compressed relative to each other, too
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13:20:29 <elliott> ais523: BTW http://projects.haskell.org/camp/
13:20:38 <elliott> ais523: a darcs offshoot research VCS
13:20:42 <elliott> yet more competition to scout out :-P
13:25:19 <elliott> GNU All-Permissive License
13:25:19 <elliott> This is a simple permissive free software license, compatible with the GNU GPL, which we recommend GNU packages use for README and other small supporting files. All developers can feel free to use it in similar situations.
13:25:19 <elliott> Older versions of this license did not have the second sentence with the express warranty disclaimer. This same analysis applies to both versions.
13:25:22 <elliott> heh, gnu have their own ISC license
13:25:25 <elliott> http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/License-Notices-for-Other-Files.html
13:26:15 <oerjan> <Ilari> Seriously, that name containing the ø is pain to type...
13:26:28 <oerjan> I HAVE _NO_ IDEA WHAT YOU'RE BABBLING ABOUT
13:27:01 <elliott> maybe we'll just replace it with an o, Orjan
13:27:08 <oerjan> although that tl at the end doesn't look particularly norwegian/danish
13:27:41 <oerjan> i already replaced it with oe, duh
13:29:49 <elliott> oerjan: yeah but oe is actually vaguely accurate :D
13:30:10 <elliott> oerjan: you'll be pleased to know i mentally pronounce your name as "oar-dshjan"
13:30:20 <elliott> where dshj is a combination of dj and sh-n
13:30:36 <elliott> oerjan: or on a good day, oer-JAn
13:30:50 <oerjan> i already heard you pronounce it, remember? hm it seems you've deteriorated then
13:31:25 <elliott> oerjan: yeah that was when I had any sort of pretence of being able to get it right
13:32:21 <oerjan> the j should definitely not be an affricate
13:32:27 <fizzie> The backscroll is too long to read, so this might have been mentioned already: but git initially just stores each file into a separate file named after the hash (so identical files are stored only once, but it doesn't use delta-based representation); then every now and then when it deciders to stick all the free-floating objects into a compressed pack file, there it uses both full files and deltas.
13:33:56 <elliott> ais523: wow: " The license is a free software license, incompatible with the GPL. It permits relicensing under a certain class of licenses, those which include all the requirements of the Jabber license. The GPL is not a member of that class, so the Jabber license does not permit relicensing under the GPL. Therefore, it is not compatible."
13:34:09 <elliott> ais523: is that the first license incompatible with the GPL /because it aims to be more compatible/?
13:34:19 <fizzie> (I don't know how it decides which files to store "deltified" and which "undeltified" -- Official Terms from http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/technical/pack-format.txt -- or whether it uses the revision-history relationships to look for candidates to deltify.)
13:34:28 <elliott> fizzie: right, it's just scapegoat makes much less sense than git, so it's hard to understand how its storage model applies :D
13:34:44 <elliott> fizzie: considering the whole thing's mostly based on patching patches.
13:35:28 <fizzie> I'm not going to get into your blameable-mammal discussion, it's already too long to jump in; that was just an aside.
13:36:20 <elliott> fizzie: the basic problem is: checking out revisions is Hard when you have to trace N diffs for large N and reassemble the result. But storing multiple copies of the whole tree at periodic points sounds Big(TM).
13:36:40 <elliott> fizzie: so the question was basically "wait, how come linux's git tree isn't very big at all really, but checkouts are still fast?".
13:37:06 <elliott> ais523: clever: [[The reason that this is useful is for the "camp send" command. Rather than, as in darcs, having a separate concept of a "patch bundle", and a separate "camp apply" function to apply them, we can just use the "camp pull" command. We get the interactive patch selection etc for free.]]
13:38:58 <fizzie> Well, the way git decides what to pack and where is "magic": http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/technical/pack-heuristics.txt (that's convoluted IRC discussion about it is the official documentation, it seems)
13:40:14 <elliott> fizzie: I've seen this file before...
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13:41:16 <elliott> fizzie: But, summarise it for me: If we have a crazy recursive patch system that takes an awful long time to check out a revision, and we use this to store full copies of (things) at various (points in time), and (possibly compress them), can this give us fast checkouts without huge repositories?
13:41:21 <elliott> SURELY AN EASY QUESTION TO ANSWER
13:42:21 <fizzie> With sufficient magic, I'm sure it can! (Read: I'm still not going to get involved here.)
13:42:39 <elliott> fizzie: BUT IT'S THE BEST VCS /EVER/
13:43:26 <fizzie> Yes, I'll be sure to try it out after you have made it.
13:43:56 <elliott> fizzie: Are you *sure* you want to commit to that?
13:44:20 <elliott> fizzie: You'll have directory trees cluttered up with +scapegoat! Can you even *talk* to a man who would name a directory entry that?
13:44:40 <elliott> And really, immutable functional weenie storage -- do you trust people like that?
13:44:49 <fizzie> What, not going with Gregor's not-in-anyone's-font-ever GOAT? Well, still.
13:45:18 <oerjan> if mutation was good enough for darwin...
13:45:41 <elliott> fizzie: Can you TRUST a program that, when discussed about, was so hopelessly generic that the command "sg give-me-a-reasonable-cwd" was discussed?!
13:45:42 <fizzie> Well, I would like my weenie to be safe...
13:46:00 <elliott> YOUR WEENIE WILL NOT BE PROTECTED FROM THE GOAT AT ANY POINT IN TIME
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14:50:01 <elliott> One-operand OISCs without accumulators. Discuss.
14:52:11 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/OISC
14:52:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/RSSB is 1-operand, but has an accumulator; http://esolangs.org/wiki/TOGA_computer is two-operand, with no accumulators.
14:57:12 <reiffert> OISC without accumulator translates like OISC without registers, slow and direct addressing required?
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15:01:54 <nooga> oerjan: nice topic
15:13:47 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)
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15:24:34 <ais523> elliott: sorry about not replying earlier, I was in a meeting and it looks like the wireless went down when I was there
15:24:52 <elliott> reiffert: who cares about speed :)
15:25:00 <elliott> ais523: did you see the messages, though?
15:27:14 <ais523> elliott: the most recent nickping of yours that I saw before I rejoined was <elliott> ais523: clever: [[The reason that this is useful is for the "camp send" command. Rather than, as in darcs, having a separate concept of a "patch bundle", and a separate "camp apply" function to apply them, we can just use the "camp pull" command. We get the interactive patch selection etc for free.]]
15:27:22 <ais523> is that the most recent, or should I clog?
15:28:14 <elliott> ais523: well, there's more before that
15:28:25 <ais523> I know, I saw everything before
15:28:31 <ais523> I was just showing the last oen
15:30:27 <elliott> ais523: Any replies re: empty directory on first change; camp?
15:31:39 <ais523> I'd say the repo doesn't, platonically, exist at all until there's something in it
15:31:52 <elliott> ais523: well, yes, but I mean what "sg init" creates
15:32:07 <elliott> ais523: obviously, it needs 1 patch in there, that everything else is based on, right?
15:33:09 <ais523> but checking the directories is how you determine if two repos are currently the same project or not, effectively
15:33:17 <ais523> you can split them apart and join them, but that's an explicit change to the arrangement
15:33:27 <ais523> so, if you didn't have any changes at all, how would you know where to commit?
15:33:37 <ais523> thus, we need to decide whether the repo's created by sg init or sg commit
15:33:48 <ais523> the second would be perverse, but has a certain logic to it
15:33:58 <ais523> (in which case, sg init would just set the metadata ready for a repo to be created)
15:36:42 <elliott> ais523: well, one could argue that, if you need 1 god patch to base everything on, there's no reason it can't be the first
15:36:53 <elliott> you can't say "but you need a patch to base patches on!" and then say that 1 patch doesn't need to be based on any
15:38:14 <ais523> directories don't need to be based on anything
15:38:28 <ais523> although you can't merge them together without adding a relationship between them and some other directory
15:38:33 <elliott> ais523: sure they do; patches don't have an "insert X", they just have "append X after Y"
15:38:38 <elliott> so you need an Empty Directory to base things on
15:38:58 <ais523> "insert new empty file in Z" only requires a directory to insert it in
15:39:00 <elliott> ais523: then how do you add an item?
15:39:07 <elliott> ais523: ok, consider a file with 0 lines
15:39:46 <ais523> "add 'x' between start of file added by 5, and end of file added by 5"
15:40:13 <ais523> giving BOF and EOF their own hashes would probably make the actual storage a little simpler
15:40:31 <ais523> but the point is just what they're added between, which is the start and end of the empty file
15:40:59 <elliott> ais523: what about the fact that directories are unordered?
15:41:03 <elliott> you can't have "add X between"
15:41:54 <ais523> you just have "add X into"
15:42:02 <ais523> the "between" is only important for preserving order
15:42:08 <ais523> if you don't care about preserving order, you just give the parent
15:42:33 <ais523> e.g. if you have a directory containing files called a.txt and d.txt, you don't want to conflict on adding b.txt just because someone else added c.txt
15:42:38 <ais523> nor would there be any sensible reason to do so
15:43:00 <ais523> so directories have different operations from files because they're inherently different structures
15:43:21 <ais523> (likewise, if you were versioning, say, a key-value store, you'd have "add into", "change", "delete" because order doesn't matter)
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16:54:49 <elliott> Alhwawi_: this channel is about programming btw
17:03:17 <Vorpal> ¬confused → ¬understood, And it is well known that being confused about something means you don't understand it. Thus ¬understood → confused. Which means ¬confused → confused.
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17:05:04 <Vorpal> if we are confused, then we might have understood it. And since I feel this is pretty confusing, I'd say that confused is true. However, I can't from that conclude I understood it since we have an implication at hand (not an equivalence)
17:05:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, is my analysis of the topic you set correct?
17:05:53 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is the right question then?
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17:06:46 <Vorpal> + Topic for #esoteric set by oerjan!oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no at Mon Dec 13 05:50:37 2010 <-- from this we can conclude you set the topic, thus I'm not asking the wrong person (if you changed something else then that's your own fault)
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17:08:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, did the unicode work for you?
17:08:18 <Vorpal> (iirc you got it working some time ago?)
17:09:09 <oerjan> my font includes little outside latin scripts
17:09:19 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh. Tried dejavu?
17:09:43 <oerjan> i haven't tried anything
17:13:52 <elliott> <Vorpal> ¬confused → ¬understood, And it is well known that being confused about something means you don't understand it. Thus ¬understood → confused. Which means ¬confused → confused.
17:13:57 <elliott> Vorpal: wow you're like a master of formal logic
17:14:27 <Vorpal> elliott, stop being sarcastic
17:14:40 <elliott> okay. wait, let me reconsider. no.
17:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it was of course not serious meant
17:15:33 <Vorpal> elliott, the whole "And it is well known that being confused about something means you don't understand it" bit is obviously bogus (using confused in another, though related, sense)
17:15:34 <oerjan> Vorpal: it doesn't look like it supports windows...
17:15:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, ... what? it is just a true type font
17:15:59 <elliott> and people use it on windows
17:16:03 <oerjan> i know very little about fonts
17:16:15 <oerjan> i just didn't see any mention of windows on the page
17:16:18 <elliott> oerjan: http://sourceforge.net/projects/dejavu/files/dejavu/2.32/dejavu-fonts-ttf-2.32.zip
17:16:21 <Vorpal> hm. not sure that symbol is from it. It looks badly hinted
17:16:30 <elliott> drag contents to Control Panel -> Fonts
17:16:37 <Vorpal> the system might be picking it from elsewhere
17:17:47 * oerjan is suspicious that the mono is sans serif only...
17:19:12 <elliott> oerjan: Luxi Mono I think has decent unicode support, and is serif'd
17:19:26 <elliott> it's in http://xorg.freedesktop.org/releases/individual/font/font-bh-ttf-1.0.2.tar.bz2
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17:19:54 <elliott> i have no idea how much unicode it does, though
17:19:55 <oerjan> hm maybe i'll try that instead
17:20:09 <Vorpal> elliott, unless he has extremely high res screen, then serif isn't very good on screen
17:20:29 <oerjan> i'm already used to serif, is all
17:20:31 <elliott> Vorpal: that is incorrect.
17:20:44 <elliott> and i don't think telling oerjan "your opinions are wrong!" is productive at all
17:20:55 <ais523> elliott: *most systems render serif in an ugly way?
17:21:06 <ais523> I have seen serif rendered well on screen, but it's rare
17:21:07 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, you mean he use a line printer for irc?
17:21:17 <elliott> ais523: you use terrible settings, though
17:21:23 <elliott> ais523: (and so do most people/OSes)
17:21:35 <ais523> elliott: well, this OS renders much better than most of the others I use
17:21:45 <ais523> worst is probably Adobe Reader on CentOS
17:21:54 <ais523> which manages to screw up kerning incredibly badly
17:22:06 <ais523> it's as if any given pair of letters is kerned at random
17:22:17 <elliott> enough about this, let's talk about everyone's favourite subject -- scapegoat!
17:22:44 <Vorpal> hm wouldn't a normal res screen, but larger, brighter, and further away, give pretty much the same result as a high res screen?
17:23:10 <elliott> no, your eyes have faeries in them and would blind you if you tried to do that.
17:23:29 <ais523> Vorpal: obviously no, it has a lower bandwidth
17:23:37 <ais523> (assuming that it has the same refresh rate)
17:24:06 <Vorpal> ais523, ... wait, you mean for the GPU<->display connection?
17:24:09 <ais523> (note: applying communications theory to font rendering doesn't normally work, but it can at least prove the most egregious statements wrong instantly)
17:24:15 <ais523> Vorpal: no, for the screen<->eyes connection
17:24:44 <Vorpal> ais523, hm. Lower bandwidth how?
17:24:55 <ais523> there's just less information being sent
17:25:27 <ais523> e.g. the pixels are coarser, so the shapes of the letters aren't as defined, and that has nothing to do with the brightness of the screen
17:25:58 <ais523> hmm, I assumed that by "normal res" and "larger" you meant, say, "1024x768, but on a larger monitor"
17:26:07 <Vorpal> ais523, err, did I say res? I meant dpi
17:26:08 <ais523> I suppose "resolution" is ambiguous in this context
17:26:17 <oerjan> elliott: should i copy the entire archive to Fonts, or just the contents of the ttf/ directory?
17:26:27 <elliott> oerjan: just the .ttf files.
17:26:53 <elliott> oerjan: you *may* need to extract the archive to a normal directory first, but dragging is worth a try.
17:27:49 <Vorpal> ais523, so if it scales so the size in your field of view is the same, and the size of each pixel is the same, then you just need to take care of light level (since the light is not unidirectional). Maybe focusing distance would cause an issue
17:27:56 <Vorpal> which is what I was wondering about
17:28:09 <Vorpal> s/cause an issue/be an issue/
17:31:25 <oerjan> gah this looks horrible
17:32:02 <elliott> oerjan: JUST INSATLL UBUNTU AND ALL; YK OUR PROBLEMS WIL BE FIX
17:32:44 <oerjan> and also i'm suspicious that putty didn't say anything about it containing any chinese or japanese characters, in fact the list of scripts was precisely the same as for courier new
17:32:56 <Vorpal> elliott, does windows try to use other fonts if it can't find anything in the current font for a given codepoint?
17:33:19 <elliott> Vorpal: no it just puts a little picture of adolf hitler there
17:33:30 <elliott> oerjan: i didn't actually check if it has jewnicode :D
17:33:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: windows might i don't know, but putty certainly doesn't
17:33:40 <elliott> (adolf hitler hates jewnicode, that's why he replaces the glyph)
17:33:51 <elliott> oerjan: by jewnice i mean unicode.
17:34:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, I suspect elliott is sleep-deprived
17:34:09 <elliott> oerjan: just trying to help out
17:34:44 <elliott> oerjan: UBUNTU EVERY SONG OF THE DOVE IS IXED
17:35:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway, *if* windows or putty tries to find the symbol in other fonts, then dejavu sans has \exists
17:36:15 <elliott> Vorpal: oh yeah cuz substituting a non-mono character in mono text is just a great idea
17:36:49 <Vorpal> elliott, let me check mono too
17:37:12 <Vorpal> elliott, mono has it too
17:37:16 <Vorpal> elliott, so your point is moot
17:37:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: putty doesn't even try to substitute the CJK characters that i do have in other mono fonts
17:37:47 <oerjan> it seems to use the selected font, only
17:37:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, but shouldn't this be handled by the system text rendering API?
17:37:58 <Vorpal> and happen transparently to the application
17:38:00 <elliott> oerjan: if you answer, Vorpal will start ranting about your OS.
17:38:22 <oerjan> elliott: i suspect putty more than windows on this point
17:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, look, on linux it happens in cairo or fontconfig or something. It is just as messy
17:38:37 <oerjan> maybe i should actually upgrade putty, it's probably from 2006
17:38:40 <elliott> oerjan: why not just use a windows irc client... i mean it's just an idea :P
17:38:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I could rant about the linux implementation too
17:38:56 <elliott> oerjan: http://the.earth.li/~sgtatham/putty/latest/x86/putty.exe
17:39:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure where text rendering should happen. On one hand, there is a good case for not putting it in the display server. On the other hand, having it everywhere is a messy solution too
17:40:12 <elliott> Vorpal: shouldn't it just be a library.
17:40:20 <oerjan> Vorpal: also e.g. IE _does_ substitute when i look at the logs e.g., but the mononess is ruined
17:40:22 <elliott> "servers" are basically useless
17:40:33 <Vorpal> elliott, so what will elliotOS do?
17:40:43 <elliott> whenever you see a server in linux, it's usually a library that does privileged stuff but that is called from user code
17:40:56 <elliott> server as in X server not httpd
17:42:49 <Vorpal> elliott, where will elliott OS do font rendering?
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17:45:59 <Vorpal> U+22D8 VERY MUCH LESS-THAN ⋘ <--- "much less than" I knew about, but this one I never heard of before
17:47:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I found no "way way less than" sadly
17:53:16 <Vorpal> elliott, btw you said that substituting non-monospace for monospace missing codepoint is bad. Yes indeed. But is it worse than not being able to show the information?
17:54:12 <elliott> information is in your mind
17:54:20 <Vorpal> elliott, that is not an answer
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18:03:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: There is, however, ⪡ and ⫷; 2AA1 and 2AF7, double/triple nested less-than.
18:04:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> information is in your mind <Vorpal> elliott, that is not an answer <-- last I saw
18:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> <fizzie> Vorpal: There is, however, ⪡ and ⫷; 2AA1 and 2AF7, double/triple nested less-than.
18:10:23 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: that interpreter is slow.' wrong: there are 3 different tape types... no ends... one end... 2 ends and c begins... and otherwise. i just check if one is willing to fight chuck norris. :p
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19:00:45 <Vorpal> elliott, ever used nexttoward() ?
19:01:41 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't touch math.h generally.
19:01:56 <Vorpal> elliott, seems python has no mapping for nextafter() hm
19:02:10 <Vorpal> elliott, these are for double
19:02:24 <elliott> Can't you write it in Python, given the double epsilon?
19:02:50 <Vorpal> elliott, well, presumably I could. The trick is figuring out said epsilon
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19:04:30 <Vorpal> elliott, OR I could just create a binding with cython :D
19:04:44 <elliott> Vorpal: While x>0 { y=x; x/=2 }; return y
19:05:28 <elliott> Vorpal: wait, does python even have doubles?
19:05:36 <Vorpal> elliott, float in python is double
19:05:44 <Vorpal> elliott, it doesn't have single precision float
19:05:49 <elliott> Vorpal: oh right double is float
19:05:53 <elliott> I thought double was fixed-point there
19:06:50 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you use the epsilon now again to figure out how far it is to the next point, since the actual distance between the points you can represent will vary over the range
19:07:02 <Quadrescence> PYTHON FOLLOWS THE IEEE 764 FLOATING POINT STANDARD
19:07:16 <elliott> Quadrescence: THAT'S NICE TO KNOW
19:07:34 <Vorpal> it doesn't does it? 1.0/0.0 is not inf
19:07:37 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, how do you use the epsilon now again to figure out how far it is to the next point, since the actual distance between the points you can represent will vary over the range
19:07:39 <elliott> i was assuming fixed-point
19:07:46 <Vorpal> elliott, well, it isn't
19:08:49 <Vorpal> elliott, besides fixed point would be highly inconvenient for this thing, since I need to work both with small number (0.00284 or so say) and huge numbers (10^40 or that range)
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19:20:47 <fizzie> "You are at the mercy of the underlying machine architecture (and C or Java implementation) for the accepted range and handling of overflow." So the spec (2.6, 2.7, 3.1 all have the same text) doesn't exactly guarantee IEEE-754, but it might often be.
19:20:50 <fizzie> (Throwing an exception at 1.0/0.0 is perfectly valid, in fact one of the optional alternatives in the standard; though I guess for full compliance there should be some way of disabling it, and that -- the fpectl module -- is not built by default, it seems.)
19:38:03 <oerjan> "In My Egotistical Opinion, most people's C programs should be indented six feet downward and covered with dirt."
19:38:22 <oerjan> http://www.junauza.com/2010/12/top-50-programming-quotes-of-all-time.html
19:44:15 <Phantom_Hoover> [[44. "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone."- Bjarne Stroustrup 43. “Computer science education cannot make anybody an expert programmer any more than studying brushes and pigment can make somebody an expert painter.”- Eric S. Raymond]]
19:44:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Want to CODE FOR ME?
19:44:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Also, why did you quote esr.
19:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Two idiots. But which is right most times per day? There's only one way to find out...
19:44:51 <oerjan> there are some good ones in the comments too
19:44:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, Bjarne Stroustrup isn't an idiot.
19:45:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so those "spoof" interviews when he admits C++ was an evil plot were actually true?
19:45:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much! (Actually it's more like: he's a decent guy who had a really, really terrible idea and still hasn't realised that yet.)
19:46:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Remind me again of the well-articulated reasons C++ sucks/
19:46:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ow ow ow ow ow ow pain ow.
19:47:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When parsing your language is Turing-complete, it's time to find a new language.
19:47:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Templates.
19:47:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because of <>
19:47:43 <elliott> < can be either less than or open template.
19:47:47 <elliott> Well, okay, that's just context-sensitivity.
19:47:55 <elliott> I don't recall if parsing it is TC, but IIRC it is.
19:49:42 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> [[44. "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone."- Bjarne Stroustrup 43. “Computer science education cannot make anybody an expert programmer any more than studying brushes and pigment can make somebody an expert painter.”- Eric S. Raymond]] <-- assuming the first one i
19:49:42 <Vorpal> s ironic (which seems patently obvious), it says something about modern landline telephones...
19:49:54 <Vorpal> the second one seems more idiotic
19:50:25 <Phantom_Hoover> His whole worldview is wrong, and if you zoom in on any part of that worldview, it's still wrong.
19:50:49 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much! (Actually it's more like: he's a decent guy who had a really, really terrible idea and still hasn't realised that yet.) <-- arguably the original "C with objects" was not quite as bad as what C++ turned out as
19:52:15 <Vorpal> elliott, that said, C with object wasn't exactly good either. But it it wasn't the nightmare that modern C++ is
19:54:02 <elliott> 26. "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they’re not."
19:54:13 <elliott> Theory doesn't match practice --> theory sucks.
19:54:31 <oerjan> in theory that's a good quote
19:54:54 <Vorpal> elliott, in theory, the theories do match practise, in practise they don't ;)
19:55:09 <elliott> Vorpal: ...that's what the quote said
19:55:21 <elliott> you just reproduced it almost word for word.
19:55:35 <oerjan> have to agree with elliott there
19:56:10 <Vorpal> elliott, actually what you did too
19:56:15 <Vorpal> <elliott> Theory doesn't match practice --> theory sucks.
19:56:21 <Vorpal> that is what the original quote said too
19:56:46 <Vorpal> which is just really a pessimistic worldview
19:56:55 <Vorpal> elliott, it implies that
19:56:55 <elliott> that's not even remotely what the quote said
20:13:36 <Phantom_Hoover> [[24. "PHP is a minor evil perpetrated and created by incompetent amateurs, whereas Perl is a great and insidious evil, perpetrated by skilled but perverted professionals." ]]
20:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> [[7. “Most software today is very much like an Egyptian pyramid with millions of bricks piled on top of each other, with no structural integrity, but just done by brute force and thousands of slaves.”]]
20:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> That shows blatant ignorance of the construction of the pyramids.
20:27:33 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: It's not minor, it's a minor evil.
20:27:46 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Compared to Perl, PHP is downright refined.
20:28:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely that puts Perl so far into language hell it's squishing C++?
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20:46:45 <pikhq> PHP is definitely a great evil.
20:46:53 <pikhq> Perl, however, is clearly the work of Morgoth.
20:55:48 <olsner> calling PHP evil is an insult to all the properly evil languages (like perl)
21:04:22 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Perl makes C++ look downright angelic.
21:06:55 <pikhq> olsner: Stupidity is a high form of evil.
21:09:25 <olsner> pikhq: I don't think so, for one stupid people usually don't mean any harm by what they're doing
21:09:41 <olsner> Perl, otoh, is deliberated :P
21:09:55 <Gregor> coppro: Perl 6 will make Perl 5 look squeaky-clean :P
21:09:58 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Quite.
21:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, those who refuse to acknowledge that they are stupid, or worse, take pride in their stupidity, are being evil.
21:11:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it the boring, bloody-minded evil of PHP and C++ taken to the extreme, or is it creative, Malbolgey evil?
21:11:27 <olsner> iirc, in PHP's case the original author(s) have freely admitted not having a clue
21:11:54 <coppro> Gregor: $_ is no longer implicit in Perl 6
21:12:08 <coppro> though it can be accessed through the alternative name ""
21:12:42 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: With PHP it's incompetence. With C++ it's overengineering. With Perl, it's boldfaced evil.
21:12:45 <elliott> coppro: Please tell me the empty string actually evaluates to $_.
21:13:03 <elliott> coppro: Rather than (empty string) :P
21:13:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, ah, so Malbolgey evil that everyone else is too stupid to see?
21:14:07 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Most people see it. It also has CPAN :P
21:14:14 <olsner> it's a malbolgey evil disguised as usefulness
21:14:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, so it's Malbolgey evil that everyone sees but ignores because...?
21:15:01 * elliott downloads j602a_linux64.sh.
21:15:04 <elliott> The only sane programming environment!
21:15:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Because it's BRILLIANT, Malbolgey evil.
21:15:19 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Because it's easy to write a lot of code quickly in it ... so long as you never need to read it again.
21:15:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: $ wget http://www.jsoftware.com/download/j602a_linux64.sh
21:15:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Post haste!
21:16:13 <olsner> oh, J ... too bad it doesn't handle ~ in my keymap, and ~ is a frequently used operator
21:16:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: J, version 602, Linux 64-bit edition.
21:16:31 <elliott> olsner: Whut? It's just Java-based, the UI.
21:16:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The only sane programming environment! Proprietary but them's the breaks
21:16:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's like APL.
21:17:03 <elliott> It's basically ASCII APL :P
21:17:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Here's a program to compute the average of an array: +/%#
21:17:26 <olsner> elliott: hmm... I wonder how they managed to break Java :/
21:17:28 <elliott> + is addition, / means "over" (fold, like foldr in Haskell)
21:18:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Pretty much :P
21:18:09 <elliott> There's just A+ and it's lame.
21:18:16 <elliott> K is super-proprietary and not even free.
21:19:19 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Most people see it. It also has CPAN :P <-- the tool or the website? the website is not bad as such. Modelled after the godly ctan iirc
21:19:31 <elliott> ctan is more painful than godly.
21:19:52 <Vorpal> elliott, how is ctan painful?
21:20:19 <Vorpal> elliott, which bit of it annoys you
21:20:38 <Vorpal> elliott, the concept of a central repo for latex packages?
21:20:50 <Vorpal> I have to presume you hate that
21:20:59 <Vorpal> since you are completely unhelpful
21:21:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You have to edit bin/jwd.
21:21:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why java64?
21:21:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The UI is Java-based, but the language itself is written in C :P
21:21:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Let me put it this way: J and Python are the only languages oklopol likes.
21:21:59 <elliott> And he only likes Python because it gets his crazy shit done :P
21:22:03 <Vorpal> elliott, if hash java64 2>/dev/null; then
21:22:14 <elliott> Vorpal: ...what relevance does this have at all?
21:22:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover didn't write it.
21:22:22 <elliott> you're criticising someone else entirely's programming.
21:22:31 <elliott> we know it's trivial. we can program perfectly well thank you very much.
21:22:31 <Vorpal> elliott, it looked like your?
21:22:57 <Vorpal> elliott, he said: "<Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "java64: not found" <Phantom_Hoover> Not impressed." <-- looked like he complained about your code
21:23:00 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Could not find the main class: jx/frames/J. Program will exit.]]
21:23:01 <Vorpal> read it out of context
21:23:04 <Vorpal> and it will look the same
21:23:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What command did you run?
21:23:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: In what directory?
21:23:58 <Vorpal> olsner, what, does it fail at altgr or?
21:24:11 <olsner> Vorpal: specifically, dead keys
21:24:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I had no such error; what directory?
21:24:55 <Vorpal> olsner, bug report that is
21:25:02 <olsner> Vorpal: I chose an easier path and stopped using their product
21:25:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do you have java?
21:25:08 <Vorpal> olsner, that works too
21:25:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I HAVE BEEN PLAYING MINECRAFT WITH YOU FOR TWO WEEKS
21:25:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: are you suuuuuuuuure?
21:26:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: try running from outside bin :P
21:26:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah. I was a bit scared there. That you would have java
21:26:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why not hand-JIT J?
21:26:37 <elliott> Why do you need hexl-mode?
21:26:41 <Vorpal> elliott, for hand-jitting. Duh
21:28:07 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, checked recently, openjdk works with minecraft alpha
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21:28:14 <Vorpal> at least with downloaded one
21:28:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Get rid of openjdk, then.
21:28:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, check /etc/alternatives
21:28:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, or use update-alternatives.
21:28:32 <Vorpal> elliott, why, openjdk works fine with minecraft
21:28:33 <elliott> You're not meant to change those yourself.
21:28:37 <elliott> And because OpenJDK clearly doesn't work with J.
21:28:54 <Vorpal> elliott, true, but checking /etc/alternatives != changing it there
21:29:03 <Vorpal> elliott, checking is good for finding out WHERE it goes
21:29:18 <Vorpal> elliott, so my statement was correct
21:29:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try removing *openjdk* :P
21:29:25 <elliott> Vorpal: update-alternatives can show that.
21:29:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: As in sudo aptitude purge *openjdk*
21:29:40 <Vorpal> elliott, it involves reading help output first
21:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "Couldn't find any package blah blah blah "*openjdk*""
21:31:30 <augur> wheres alice been? :(
21:31:52 <elliott> you... didn't realise this?
21:31:56 <augur> firstly, i thought you had one l and one t
21:32:16 <augur> second, no, i thought you were some random kid named elliott
21:32:24 <elliott> some random kid named elliott :P
21:32:34 <augur> oh man, ive been hostile towards you for no reason :(
21:32:42 <elliott> good to know i'm that dislikeable
21:32:50 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed you are!
21:32:55 <augur> now go die in a fire
21:33:03 <elliott> 10.10.26:16:54:28 <augur> elliott: what
21:33:03 <elliott> 10.10.28:16:45:17 <augur> elliott: what
21:33:03 <elliott> 10.11.12:02:30:37 <augur> elliott: what
21:33:03 <elliott> 10.11.26:16:40:15 <augur> elliott: you're talkative
21:33:03 <elliott> 10.11.26:16:40:19 <augur> elliott: http://www.jaybirdgear.com/cart/sb2/#
21:33:04 <elliott> 10.11.28:14:47:16 <augur> elliott is agreeing with me on something
21:33:05 <elliott> 10.12.01:19:58:24 <augur> elliott: deny
21:33:07 <elliott> 10.12.06:12:04:29 <augur> elliott: but thats because performance is not competence
21:33:13 <augur> knowing you're ehird, now i HAVE a reason
21:33:36 <augur> i ended up not getting those you know
21:33:54 <augur> i got a pair of sony's
21:34:03 <augur> still bluetooth, but not jaybirds
21:34:14 <elliott> better than radio-based wireless ones at least
21:34:25 <elliott> those ones have constant fuzz and if you don't play audio for too long -- I'm not joking here --
21:34:26 <augur> the jaybirds were bluetooth too..
21:34:32 <elliott> augur: oh, i was just commenting in general
21:34:38 <elliott> seriously, you just sit there... haven't played music in a while
21:34:53 <augur> elliott: i missed you :(
21:35:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes, that's the introduction.
21:35:08 <augur> ironic, since you were here the whole time
21:35:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you can change that.
21:35:24 <Vorpal> elliott, how can you live with wireless headphones?
21:35:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wait, is your system actually 64-bit?
21:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, they are laggy
21:35:32 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't any more :P
21:35:37 <Vorpal> elliott, stuff doesn't sync up
21:35:40 <elliott> ...although lag was not my complaint, what?
21:35:43 <Vorpal> elliott, at least in my experience
21:35:46 <elliott> the radio ones are fine with lag
21:35:49 <elliott> just terrible at everything else
21:35:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: um, as opposed to 32-bit linux
21:35:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm talking of video sound being out of sync with the bluetooth ones I tried
21:36:15 <Vorpal> elliott, compared to plain cable ones
21:36:26 <Vorpal> elliott, which work fine, don't need battery, and give better sound
21:36:49 <Vorpal> elliott, beat my DT150 with wireless. Good luck
21:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, the FSF have some mysterious marker on java -version, so I am SUSPICIOUS
21:37:00 <Vorpal> elliott, sb live + DT150 that is
21:37:09 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't use wireless.
21:37:18 <elliott> OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.8.2) (6b18-1.8.2-4)
21:37:18 <elliott> OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 16.0-b13, mixed mode)
21:37:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WELP I TOTALLY APPROVE OF ICEDTEA YOU SHOULD INSTALL IT
21:37:59 <elliott> awesome, java doesn't do font fallback
21:39:14 <elliott> "Users can add a physical font as a fallback font to logical fonts used in Java 2D rendering by installing it in the lib/fonts/fallback directory within the JRE."
21:41:29 <elliott> grr, fallback thing doesn't work
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21:50:43 <pikhq> I hate it when things don't go through fontconfig.
21:51:16 <pikhq> There's a central point for this configuration! I don't *want* your dumb-ass ways of handling it!
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21:51:37 <pikhq> (note: if you can replace fontconfig with something less XML-loving and make it universal, I will love you forever)
21:53:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: @ has no configuration.
21:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, I will Leave And Never Come Back if you don't declare that XML is banned from @.
21:54:04 <elliott> It renders fonts in the perfect way, as determined by me, God.
21:54:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it'll have an XML parser... for feed reading, say :P
21:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, can't you configure it by messing around with the rendering code?
21:55:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: NO. It is protected.
21:55:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: By the same notion, everything is configurable because we have text editors.
21:55:47 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, yes, but in @ everything is adjustable at runtime.
21:58:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, what happens when you meddle with code that's being executed?
21:58:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your bunny turns into a fluff.
21:58:34 <elliott> That is as cute as it sounds, too.
21:58:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: More realistically: It works.
21:59:39 <pikhq> Mmmm, milkshake...
22:00:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, if you edit an executing function, nothing will happen, but the next time it's called...
22:00:40 <Vorpal> elliott, Deewiant: down?
22:00:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: If you want to change a tight-looping function while it executes, use the debugger.
22:01:25 <elliott> i.e. hit pause/break or some similar key, step a few times if you want to, and tell it to change the code, then exit the debugger and continue.
22:01:29 <Phantom_Hoover> So you still need to restart your web browser if significant changes are made to the code?
22:01:42 <elliott> Not really; I would imagine a web browser is composed of a good many functions.
22:02:03 <elliott> If the main loop was compiled to be non-recursive (looping instead) and you modified that, then maybe. But I'd like to see if I can't make it update the code in that case too.
22:02:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but presumably some of them are going to run for a very long time.
22:02:26 <elliott> Well, there's no actual main loop; FRP.
22:02:32 <elliott> Everything is just event --> reaction in the simplest case.
22:02:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Asynchronous.
22:02:46 <elliott> Indeed, your browser won't even hard-loop like that, since it's based on an event-based GUI toolkit.
22:02:56 <elliott> It's just that in @, /everything/ is asynchronous and you use FRP to do all effects.
22:04:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What, "asynchronous"?
22:05:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hard-loop = loop :P
22:05:29 <elliott> Your browser, when it pops up a dialogue box, doesn't freeze.
22:05:36 <elliott> Because it's not in a loop; it's doing everything normally.
22:05:46 <elliott> It just has an event set up for "dialogue-box-clicked-OK".
22:07:25 <fizzie> Re earlier topic, Bluetooth wireless headphones + Linux was indeed a really very laggy combination; but the same headphones were markedly better (lag-wise) in some other systems. Maybe the others do some sort of lag-compensating guesswork, who knows.
22:11:50 <elliott> Does anyone have a tool to merge two fonts?
22:12:04 <elliott> i.e. A+B => C where if char c not in A, char c in C, taken from B
22:12:09 <elliott> but otherwise char c in C, taken from A
22:13:56 <fizzie> FontForge might be capable of that, but the user interface (if you can call it that) is so confusing, no-one can tell.
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22:19:58 <calamari> elliott: are you trying to create an all-encompassing unicode font?
22:20:21 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:21:23 <elliott> calamari: Just trying to merge Droid Sans Mono with fallback DejaVu Sans Mono, for J, which doesn't do fallbacks.
22:21:29 <elliott> fizzie: Wanna TRY IT OUT FOR ME? :P
22:22:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, that made a difference
22:22:38 <calamari> can you extend a class to allow fallbacks?
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22:24:39 <elliott> calamari: it's not OSS, so no.
22:24:57 <calamari> has anyone else noticed that linux audio has really gotten lame in the past year or so, skipping and etc? I wonder if something happened to the driver for my card
22:25:31 <calamari> maybe it goes back more than a year now, I lose track of time
22:25:55 <calamari> seemed to start around the same time as that pulseaudio stuff, but that could just be a coincidence
22:26:46 <calamari> but pulseaudio isn't in the kernel, right?
22:27:42 <calamari> I was assuming if I selected ALSA, then I avoided pulseaudio messing me up
22:28:20 <elliott> calamari: not unless you uninstall pulseaudio
22:28:30 <elliott> calamari: it reroutes ALSA's library to go to pulseaudio, which then goes to ALSA
22:28:42 <elliott> calamari: note: if you're on ubuntu, uninstalling pulseaudio = no volume control
22:29:12 <calamari> and I'm also not sure if KDE 3.5's audio stuff is screwing me too
22:29:46 <calamari> since they had added yet another layer of crap lol
22:30:23 <elliott> calamari: Well, sure, that will work.
22:30:31 <elliott> calamari: You're using KDE 3.5 still?
22:30:51 <elliott> calamari: Don't; use Trinity.
22:30:59 <elliott> calamari: (Maintained fork of KDE3.5, being ported to Qt 4.)
22:31:04 <elliott> http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/
22:31:57 <calamari> oh maybe it just changed names, lets see
22:32:55 <elliott> calamari: what did you think changed names?
22:32:57 <calamari> I was using this before deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kde3-maintainers/ppa/ubuntu lucid main
22:33:36 <calamari> okay so I'm using the same one
22:34:01 <elliott> you're still on lucid? :-P
22:35:28 <calamari> I used to upgrade right away, but I got tired of stuff breaking so now I upgrade a release behind
22:35:51 <olsner> upgrade to something that's already old: FUN
22:38:12 <elliott> calamari: nope, I use gnome :P
22:38:29 <elliott> calamari: more out of convenience than anything else
22:38:50 <calamari> yeah I put gnome onmy new work lptop because I do realize kde 3.5 is crufty
22:39:23 <calamari> maybe they removed all the features they could for a while and it stabilized
22:40:53 <calamari> the earlier KDE always reminded me of some kind of Windows 3.1/95 mix.. however the later KDE was better looking at they never removed features.. instead they just scrapped the entire thing and put ot KDE 4 lol
22:41:32 <calamari> I only went to KDE3 because I was afraid of what Gnome would remove next.. there was one release where you couldn't even edit the menus
22:44:08 <calamari> to be fair, though, the menu stuff was more of an outside standards effort that they adopted.. but they definitely could have waited a bit on that one
22:45:35 <elliott> who cares about linux anyway
22:45:47 <pikhq> Nobody actually likes X11 any more.
22:46:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, I bet there is some freak that does
22:47:02 <calamari> lol if I had to choose between keyboard and mouse, the rodent would lose out
22:48:52 <calamari> you don't use xman exclusively due to it's amazing ui? oh wait, neither do I
22:49:43 <calamari> *its .. when did I start screwing that one up?
23:01:22 -!- tswett has joined.
23:01:59 -!- tswett has set topic: LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:02:18 <tswett> The sentence written on the door to Hell.
23:02:28 <tswett> Actually, there are lots of sentences. Like, nine or something. That's the last one.
23:18:30 <elliott> Cool, moving average is easy in J.
23:21:06 <fizzie> filter(ones(1,4), 1, v) in MATLABy things; not "quite" as nice.
23:22:21 * tswett decides that a Haskell moving average would fit within eighty characters.
23:24:15 <augur> elliott: whats your opinion on scheme again
23:24:55 <elliott> OK, seriously, someone merge two TTFs for me.
23:25:00 <elliott> augur: A swindle, no less.
23:25:30 <tswett> Let's consider a list, like [1,7,2,5,3,8,9,4,2,7,3]. Then you just...
23:25:36 <elliott> fizzie: tswett: Also, it only counts if you use a predefined "avg" function.
23:25:41 <elliott> That you can substitute for any function.
23:26:22 <tswett> map (avg . take 4) . tails $ [1,7,2,5,3,8,9,4,2,7,3]
23:26:51 <Mathnerd314> what's a good size for an interpreter of a "minimal" language?
23:26:56 <elliott> Mathnerd314: um, in what? bytes?
23:27:06 <fizzie> elliott: Okay: mean(buffer(v, 4, 3)). (Except you can't quite substitute "any" function there; but most do it right by default.)
23:27:27 <tswett> Funnily enough, that will take the average of [1,7,2,5], then of [7,2,5,3], . . ., then of [4,2,7,3], then of [2,7,3], then of [7,3], then of [3], then of [], at which point the program will crash.
23:27:27 <Mathnerd314> elliott: a Lisp, implemented in anything, counting tokens
23:27:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: counting tokens? pg got to you eh?
23:28:01 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Anyway it's a meaningless question without specifying the implementation language.
23:28:02 <Mathnerd314> elliott: yeah; you can count LOC if you'd rather
23:28:22 <Mathnerd314> elliott: you can use any language you want.
23:28:42 <Mathnerd314> elliott: I just want an order-of-magnitude estimate
23:28:48 <elliott> Mathnerd314: then the question is meaningless :)
23:29:07 <fizzie> buffer(v, 4, 3) gives [[0; 0; 0; v(1)] [0; 0; v(1); v(2)] [0; v(1); v(2); v(3)] [v(1); v(2); v(3); v(4)] ... ], and most functions that make sense for a vector do their operation separately for each column.
23:29:47 <Mathnerd314> elliott: ok, we'll start with c. what size is a C interpreter for Lisp
23:30:08 <elliott> 4 (+/%#)\ 1 7 2 5 3 8 9 4 2 7 3
23:30:08 <elliott> 3.75 4.25 4.5 6.25 6 5.75 5.5 4
23:30:10 <elliott> tswett: Good luck beating that.
23:30:16 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Uh, 100-200 lines? C is pretty verbose.
23:30:34 <elliott> tswett: That includes the avg function.
23:31:50 <Mathnerd314> elliott: so 700 lines of Haskell is way too long?
23:31:54 <fizzie> octave:6> sum(buffer([1 7 2 5 3 8 9 4 2 7 3], 4, 3, 'nodelay'))/4
23:31:54 <fizzie> 3.7500 4.2500 4.5000 6.2500 6.0000 5.7500 5.5000 4.0000 3.0000
23:32:04 <fizzie> I guess it's a bit longer. And repeats the window width thrice.
23:32:08 <elliott> Mathnerd314: definitely. if the language is minimal in even the slightest, definitely.
23:32:16 <elliott> 700 lines of haskell could control nukes :)
23:32:27 <Deewiant> Nuke controllers aren't that complicated.
23:32:36 <elliott> fizzie: OK, now define a function that takes a window size and a list and moving-averages them.
23:33:38 <fizzie> "f = @(w, v) mean(buffer(v, w, w-1, 'nodelay'))" if you don't mind using mean.
23:33:45 <fizzie> s/f/mavg/ if you like.
23:34:13 <fizzie> The 'nodelay' is a bit debatable; it zero-pads in front if you don't include that, but according to someone's definition that might be the right thing.
23:35:06 <elliott> fizzie: OK, now write a function that produces a screwy TABLE OF AVERAGES OR SOMETHING, like so: http://sprunge.us/MThf
23:35:13 <elliott> The last column is the moving averages, the first is the list itself; not sure what the list inbetween is.
23:35:32 <tswett> A nuke controller in Haskell.
23:35:37 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, it's each window size from 1 (just return the list directly) to the size you specify.
23:35:43 <tswett> Requires a relatively "smart" API.
23:35:45 <elliott> fizzie: With the moving averages for each window being a column.
23:36:19 <fizzie> Stop being like that, it's going to be pretty ugly.
23:36:23 <elliott> The 3D version does nothing interesting, unfortunately. :P
23:36:29 <elliott> fizzie: That's okay, I like ugly!
23:36:37 <elliott> fizzie: At least it'll teach people not to call J ugly. :P
23:37:33 <elliott> "mmavg is (add over divide length) infix infix", what's so hard about that!
23:37:42 <elliott> (When each element is pronounced :P)
23:41:43 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/gp4u I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY NOW.
23:41:51 <fizzie> It's not identical due to lack of nodelay.
23:42:04 <elliott> fizzie: Does yours handle >1D arrays?
23:42:24 <fizzie> Probably not. It almost didn't handle window width of 1 either.
23:43:41 <fizzie> I don't think buffer deals with matrices sensibly, you'd have to do something else, probably another arrayfun over a list to do the buffering.
23:43:45 <fizzie> I'm not going to try that.
23:44:01 <fizzie> MATLAB's pretty horrible when you just want to map.
23:44:17 <fizzie> At least Mathematica has that funky /@ operator or whatever they called it.
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