←2010-12-14 2010-12-15 2010-12-16→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:06:31 <nooga> uh
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00:21:39 <elliott> nooga: uh?
00:21:45 <elliott> tswett: I'm waaiiiitiiiing. :p
00:24:34 <tswett> Please write a C program, at most 415241 characters long, that calculates pi to one million decimal places.
00:25:44 <elliott> tswett: That's not difficult, is it.
00:26:17 <tswett> No, too lenient. It must be at most 165373 characters long.
00:26:26 <elliott> tswett: Can it print in hex as long as the result is 1 million decimal places when converted to decimal?
00:26:42 <nooga> my gf went to a girl's party
00:27:01 <tswett> Yes, if it's accurate to one million decimal places.
00:28:21 <nooga> and got back completely stoned
00:28:24 <nooga> gerat
00:28:26 <nooga> great
00:29:08 <elliott> tswett: Just a minute then.
00:30:04 <elliott> tswett: Or a few minutes.
00:31:06 <elliott> tswett: Is it alright if I, uh, steal some code from elsewhere and adapt some of it?
00:31:07 <Deewiant> http://www.spoj.pl/ranks/PIVAL/lang=C here's some that are limited to 4096 bytes (no code, though).
00:31:20 <Deewiant> They presumably could go to 1 million given enough time
00:31:26 <tswett> elliott: only if that code is written in plain English.
00:31:40 <elliott> tswett: What if it's written in mathematicalformulas?
00:31:47 <elliott> *mathematical formulas
00:32:13 <tswett> Those are fine.
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00:35:54 <elliott> tswett: Oh fer gods sake, this is fiddly; I was just going to do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula in an infinite loop.
00:36:04 <elliott> tswett: That's an easy way to print the entirety of pi with a simple program.
00:36:07 <elliott> In hex, no less.
00:36:28 <elliott> Since you don't need any arbitary-precision this or whatever.
00:36:39 <elliott> tswett: Aha, wait, I think I've got it.
00:36:50 <elliott> tswett: Gimme a minute.
00:39:16 <elliott> tswett: Why do you want this, anywy?
00:39:18 <elliott> *anyway
00:41:33 <tswett> No good reason.
00:46:32 <elliott> tswett: this is SO NEARLY ALMOST SORT OF WORKING
00:49:37 <elliott> tswett: are you trying to kolgomorov complexitise pi? :P
00:50:37 <elliott> tswett: btw i cheated *slightly* (stole one single expression that is just a basic arithmetical calculation restated in python)
00:50:40 <elliott> just to be a bit lazy
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00:59:10 <elliott> tswett: Think I've got it.
00:59:56 <elliott> tswett: 245 foo.c
00:59:58 <elliott> tswett:
00:59:59 <elliott> #include<stdio.h>
00:59:59 <elliott> #include<math.h>
00:59:59 <elliott> int main(void){printf("3.");for(long double n=1,r,l=0;n<1000000;n++){printf("%x",(int)floorl(16*(l=(modfl((16*l)+(((120*n-89)*n+16) / ((((512*n-1024)*n+712)*n-206)*n+21)),&r)))));fflush(stdout);}printf("\n");}
01:00:04 <elliott> tswett: Valid C99, or something in that vicinity.
01:00:13 <elliott> Verification of the one million hex digits is left as an exercise to the reader.
01:00:19 <elliott> Oh, wait, that can be even shorter.
01:00:51 <elliott> 243 foo.c
01:00:53 <elliott> #include<stdio.h>
01:00:53 <elliott> #include<math.h>
01:00:53 <elliott> int main(void){printf("3.");for(long double n=1,r,l=0;n<1000000;n++){printf("%x",(int)floorl(16*(l=(modfl((16*l)+(((120*n-89)*n+16)/((((512*n-1024)*n+712)*n-206)*n+21)),&r)))));fflush(stdout);}printf("\n");}
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01:01:15 <elliott> tswett: Are you happy? :p
01:01:33 <elliott> int main(void){printf("3.");for(long double n=1,r,l=0;n<1000000;n++){printf("%x",(int)floorl(16*(l=(modfl((16*l)+(((120*n-89)*n+16)/((((512*n-1024)*n+712)*n-206)*n+21)),&r)))));fflush(stdout);}puts("");}
01:01:36 <elliott> One shorter! Oh the joy
01:01:39 <elliott> *joy!
01:02:28 <elliott> #include<stdio.h>
01:02:28 <elliott> #include<math.h>
01:02:28 <elliott> int main(void){printf("3.");for(long double n=1,r,l=0;n<1<<20;n++){printf("%x",(int)floorl(16*(l=(modfl((16*l)+(((120*n-89)*n+16)/((((512*n-1024)*n+712)*n-206)*n+21)),&r)))));fflush(stdout);}puts("");}
01:02:30 <elliott> Shorter AND prints more digits!
01:02:45 <elliott> Although the results of that one are fishy.
01:03:09 <elliott> Actually the end results are fishy in general but that might just be my eyes.
01:03:35 <elliott> tswett: praise plz
01:04:54 <elliott> Ilari: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129236621626462&w=2
01:05:04 <elliott> Ilari: Alleged FBI backdoors in widely-copies OpenBSD IPSEC code.
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01:12:28 <elliott> tswett: Do you have the power to summon oerjan?
01:16:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> Ilari: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129236621626462&w=2 <-- ouch
01:16:35 <elliott> "The FBI-backdoors-OpenBSD story is like the NSA assassinations stories: Believable except for the minor detail that it's the wrong TLA." --cperciva
01:17:13 <Vorpal> elliott, TLA?
01:17:16 <elliott> three letter acronym
01:17:24 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed
01:17:24 <elliott> one would expect it to be the NSA wanting such backdoors, not the FBI
01:17:27 <elliott> Vorpal: can i have servers+funding please
01:17:34 <Vorpal> elliott, for?
01:17:43 <elliott> Vorpal: project!
01:17:47 <elliott> also /me is trolling #openbsd now >_>
01:17:51 <Vorpal> elliott, what project
01:17:57 <elliott> (okay, opaquely enough that it doesn't actually count as trolling)
01:17:58 <Vorpal> and trolling is *never* nice
01:18:03 <elliott> it's joke-trolling
01:18:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, going to sleep as I packed the backpack
01:18:28 <elliott> Vorpal: the project project! parade!
01:18:30 <Ilari> 9.21M addresses allocated from APNIC this calender month (based on delegated file dated 2010-12-14)... At this rate, IANA pool will deplete in a month (mid-January).
01:18:40 <elliott> Ilari: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129236621626462&w=2 :P
01:18:47 <Vorpal> elliott, answer: no, you are being annoying vague too
01:18:53 <Vorpal> annoyingly*
01:18:57 <pikhq> Ilari: Freow.
01:18:58 <elliott> Vorpal: do you really /want/ me to be specific
01:19:00 <elliott> pikhq: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129236621626462&w=2
01:19:05 <elliott> amusing if nothing else
01:19:10 <Vorpal> elliott, sure
01:19:17 <Vorpal> elliott, is it for kitten?
01:19:26 <elliott> Vorpal: nope, it's an entirely separate project
01:19:28 <elliott> Vorpal: but an excellent one!
01:19:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what project
01:19:39 <elliott> Vorpal: i want to obsolete VPSes. well, mostly. >:)
01:19:46 <elliott> Vorpal: i even know how to market it!
01:19:48 <Vorpal> elliott, details
01:20:16 <pikhq> elliott: Aaaah, the joys of the spy agencies spying on each other.
01:21:06 <elliott> Vorpal: basically, you pay me $N/mo. where by me I mean $company. put "float" in front of a command, and it executes on $server, where you don't care what $server is. you can manage this process in various ways from the command-line -- putting it in the "background", monitoring it, killing it, sending stuff to its stdin, etc. -- and also view its output, log files (you have to tell it what those are, though -- pretty much looking through the / it
01:21:06 <elliott> 's in), etc.
01:21:33 <elliott> Vorpal: this process is seamlessly migrated to other servers as the server load demands, and given a Xen-or-whatever allocation according to how much you're paying us, and how much you're already using, globally
01:21:49 <elliott> Vorpal: you can start processes in more involved ways to make them integrate better with the system, by specifying more about how they act
01:22:08 <elliott> Vorpal: the migration doesn't lose internet connections and the like, because sockets and the like go through "fd proxy" machines
01:22:13 <elliott> (tl;dr custom patched libc)
01:22:23 <Vorpal> elliott, sooo. some application level virtualisation along google apps lines?
01:22:28 <elliott> Vorpal: not really, it'd be actual linux
01:22:31 <elliott> Xen-based or whatever
01:22:38 <Vorpal> elliott, but per process?
01:22:48 <elliott> Vorpal: pretty much. obviously you can spawn multiple processes at a time, but yes, per "task"
01:23:03 <elliott> Vorpal: the basic use-case is... you've made an IRC bot, and you've been running it locally, but now you want it up permanently
01:23:05 <Vorpal> elliott, and how do you count fork()
01:23:06 <elliott> put "float" in front of the command
01:23:08 <elliott> forget about it
01:23:09 <elliott> tada
01:23:11 <elliott> Vorpal: "count"?
01:23:14 <elliott> it goes in the same namespace
01:23:19 <Vorpal> elliott, same or different task
01:23:19 <elliott> as the original process
01:23:22 <elliott> same. duh
01:23:28 <elliott> "task" is up to you
01:23:28 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, fork() + execv() ?
01:23:31 <elliott> ...
01:23:31 <Vorpal> ah
01:23:32 <Vorpal> okay
01:23:34 <Vorpal> right
01:23:35 <elliott> YOU ARE SUCH A FUCKING NITPICKER >_<
01:23:38 <Vorpal> that makes sense
01:23:49 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, it'd also scale to things above IRC bots
01:24:02 <Vorpal> elliott, such as minecraft?
01:24:07 <elliott> sure :D
01:24:15 <elliott> for instance, the float command would try to automatically figure out what paths and files you've mentioned, and upload them (you are, of course, able to do this manually if the magic isn't working out)
01:24:21 <elliott> so e.g. "mybot myconffile mydatadir/"
01:24:30 <Vorpal> elliott, do you think you could implement it actually
01:24:34 <elliott> you could also access the filesystem from afar
01:24:37 <elliott> e.g., you start a web server
01:24:40 <elliott> and want to upload stuff there
01:24:43 <elliott> so you scp/sftp in
01:24:49 <elliott> Vorpal: sure, it's all technically feasible
01:25:07 <elliott> Vorpal: migrating processes w/ the patched libc for keeping FDs it'd require would be the hardest part, really
01:25:08 <Vorpal> elliott, and the file system, this is shared in the "cluster"?
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01:25:16 <elliott> Vorpal: no, it's Xen-esque
01:25:23 <elliott> every process gets its own root filesystem
01:25:30 <elliott> (of course you could share them, by setting it up manually, I suppose)
01:25:44 <Vorpal> elliott, so how do you properly migrate that. The fd-proxy would work fine for, say, sockets
01:25:52 <Vorpal> elliott, but not so great if you try to mmap() files
01:26:09 <elliott> Vorpal: well it'd pretty much re-mmap() them on the other side
01:26:25 <Vorpal> elliott, can you ensure proper mmap() semantics between threads and forks?
01:26:27 <elliott> Vorpal: it'll either have to be non-Linux-based at the migration level, or use some kind of kernel patch to be able to freeze and restore processes, I'll have to see about it
01:26:35 <elliott> it's likely that you'll have to specifically enable migrating to another server
01:26:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm thinking "database server" here
01:26:41 <elliott> Vorpal: let's see if i can!
01:26:47 <elliott> if not, fine, your DB server isn't migratable
01:26:56 <elliott> you get shitty performance if the server gets bogged down, but what can you do? you suffer that with VPSes anyway
01:27:01 <elliott> the performance of my solution is always >=VPS
01:27:07 <Vorpal> elliott, there is linux kernel support for freezing processes
01:27:09 <Vorpal> iirc
01:27:11 <elliott> basically, this is all based on the observation that VPSes generally run a bunch of services, but they rarely *interact* directly with each other
01:27:18 <elliott> and it's much easier to be able to manage them separately
01:27:36 <elliott> also, the cost of entry is way too high; setting up an IRC bot involves scp, shelling in, probably setting up a screen instance if it has a useful stdio interface
01:27:36 <elliott> etc.
01:27:42 <elliott> as opposed to just saying "here, run this somewhere on the interwebs"
01:27:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to ensure proper handling of shared memory between a db server and something using it
01:27:52 <elliott> marketing strategy: can't you guess?! Cloud! Run your programs from the cloud!
01:27:55 <Vorpal> which is annoying
01:27:56 <elliott> Total cloud virtualised environment cloud!
01:28:11 <elliott> Vorpal: well, SQL servers are often used over sockets :-P
01:28:15 <elliott> usually, even
01:28:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yes true, but they are over shm if local often
01:28:49 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, true ... I mean there'd be no limit to how "big" a task can be really
01:28:56 <elliott> since it's the sum of your resource usage that's considered
01:29:00 <Vorpal> rigjt
01:29:02 <Vorpal> right*
01:29:17 <elliott> it'd certainly be a technically interesting project to work on
01:29:27 <elliott> the only problem is that it needs a bunch of dedicated servers to get started :)
01:30:23 <Vorpal> elliott, resources I don't have
01:30:33 <elliott> Vorpal: buy them!
01:30:58 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, but the resource I lack here is money
01:31:11 <pikhq> XD
01:31:13 <Vorpal> elliott, do like xkcd suggested and report it to the idea agency or whatever it was when someone else implement this. ;P
01:31:17 <elliott> Vorpal: it's okay, you can have 50% of the profits!!!!!!!!
01:31:21 <elliott> i'm an IDEA MAN
01:31:33 <pikhq> Halliburton is offering to pay Nigeria $250 million to drop *bribery* charges against Cheney.
01:31:49 <pikhq> They are bribing someone to get away with bribery.
01:32:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, Halliburton?
01:32:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, also, are they doing that in the open?
01:32:18 <Vorpal> is it a bribe then technically
01:32:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: They do oil.
01:32:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: Also, no, not in the open.
01:33:20 <pikhq> They've also been a major military construction contractor.
01:33:40 <pikhq> Dick Cheney was their CEO.
01:33:46 <elliott> more like cheney the dick LOL
01:34:51 <tswett> elliott: I praise you, O great elliott.
01:35:37 <pikhq> He most certainly is a dick.
01:35:39 <elliott> tswett: thank you. so why did you want that program
01:36:14 <elliott> #include<stdio.h>
01:36:14 <elliott> #include<math.h>
01:36:15 <elliott> int main(){printf("3.");for(long double n=1,r,l=0;n<1000000;n++){printf("%x",(int)floorl(16*(l=(modfl((16*l)+(((120*n-89)*n+16)/((((512*n-1024)*n+712)*n-206)*n+21)),&r)))));}puts("");}
01:36:19 <elliott> doesn't flush output after every digit, but is smaller
01:36:23 <elliott> (220 chars)
01:36:27 <elliott> anyone feel like golfing it? pikhq? :P
01:36:39 <Vorpal> night →
01:39:24 <pikhq> elliott: Meh.
01:39:49 <elliott> pikhq: but it's 1 million hex digits of pi!
01:39:58 <elliott> probably, there might be an overflow in there :)
01:40:25 <tswett> elliott: like I said, no good reason.
01:41:10 <elliott> tswett: C'mon, I need to feel good about having written it :P
01:41:14 <elliott> Since it was utterly pointless.
01:43:51 <pikhq> *facepalm*...
01:44:09 <pikhq> Gawker stored passwords. But only the first 8 characters.
01:44:14 <pikhq> They actually truncated passwords.
01:44:16 <elliott> pikhq: That's because of DES.
01:44:57 <pikhq> elliott: ...
01:45:08 <pikhq> What, did they use *1 block* of DES?
01:45:34 <pikhq> SO MUCH FAIL.
01:45:49 <elliott> pikhq: Abcdefgh, Joy of Man's DESiring.
01:45:56 <elliott> (worst pun ever)
01:52:37 <tswett> elliott: I think it's amazing how you're able to write working C code at your age.
01:53:16 <tswett> You clearly understand computing better than the vast majority of people in the world.
01:54:10 <elliott> tswett: Yes. Also, I am god.
01:54:17 <elliott> Furthermore, I invented sandwiches.
01:54:55 <Mathnerd314> elliott: which kind?
01:55:10 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ALL KINDS
01:56:38 <Mathnerd314> I have a language construct, which theoretically can do everything in existence. does anyone care?
01:57:01 <coppro> maybe
01:57:33 <tswett> Mathnerd314: there are lots of those drifting around. :) But sure, what is it?
01:58:05 <pikhq> tswett: I'd imagine many of us could write working C code at elliott's age.
01:58:05 <Mathnerd314> quick description: "fixed-point ambiguous lazy definition"
01:58:22 <pikhq> But, then, we're people sitting in a channel *all about* programming. Sooo. :)
01:58:25 <elliott> <Mathnerd314> I have a language construct, which theoretically can do everything in existence. does anyone care?
01:58:27 <elliott> I do too.
01:58:29 <elliott> it's called lambda.
01:58:38 <Mathnerd314> elliott: this is more powerful.
01:58:46 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ...no, no it's not.
01:58:50 <Mathnerd314> it can do types
01:58:52 <elliott> unless it's uncomputable.
01:58:54 <elliott> in which case sure.
01:59:03 <elliott> but no, your construct is not more powerful than lambda. by definition.
01:59:17 <tswett> It may be easier to use than lambda.
01:59:29 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Lambda is Turing-complete. Therefore your construct is not more powerful than lambda. QVOD ERAT DEMONSTRANDVM
01:59:37 <elliott> Qvod.
01:59:45 <tswett> But if it's computable, lambda calculus can compute it.
01:59:49 <elliott> tswett: That's very subjective and arguable, still.
01:59:53 <elliott> I find lambda pretty easy. :p
01:59:54 <Mathnerd314> elliott: theoretically, its value is undecidable in some cases.
02:00:05 <Mathnerd314> s/its/my construct's/
02:00:14 <elliott> Mathnerd314: lambda too :P
02:00:26 <elliott> (\x. _|_) \equiv _|_
02:01:07 <Mathnerd314> I'll ignore you and give examples
02:01:09 <tswett> Mathnerd314: okay, then maybe it is more powerful than lambda.
02:01:19 <tswett> Ignoring elliott is often a good plan. :P
02:01:23 <Mathnerd314> a = 2 -- simple definition
02:01:31 <elliott> tswett: I'm right, though.
02:01:34 <Mathnerd314> a = 1; b = a -- simple assignment
02:01:41 <elliott> tswett: const _|_ = _|_
02:01:59 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ok so that's two constructs (definition and assignment) already
02:02:30 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no, just examples. the type is [(LHS,RHS)]
02:02:42 <elliott> very well.
02:02:46 <elliott> show something more interesting? :-P
02:03:39 <Mathnerd314> a = 1 : a -- infinite data structure
02:04:08 <elliott> ok, so right now it's haskell :P
02:04:17 <elliott> or is : not part of the control structure?
02:04:26 <elliott> i.e. is that "a = f x a" for arbitrary function f and value x?
02:04:47 <Mathnerd314> no, (:) is just an operator
02:05:04 <elliott> Mathnerd314: is it part of the construct?
02:05:05 <elliott> or not?
02:05:08 <Mathnerd314> a = 0 + a -- a is all numbers
02:05:31 <Mathnerd314> (all elements of rings, to be precise)
02:05:38 <elliott> Mathnerd314: erm, "a = 0 + a" -- a is 0
02:05:42 <elliott> presumably you mean 1 + a?
02:05:48 <elliott> are : and + part of the construct?
02:06:03 <Mathnerd314> no, they're just operators.
02:06:10 <elliott> very well.
02:06:15 <elliott> more examples? show some actual computation
02:06:17 <Mathnerd314> the construct finds the fixed points
02:06:30 <elliott> Mathnerd314: btw, this thing is not more powerful than lambda because it /depends/ on lambda or something equally powerful
02:06:33 <elliott> that is, it depends on functions
02:08:06 <elliott> Mathnerd314: am i being too nitpicky :)
02:08:18 <Mathnerd314> well, it does simultaneous equation solving too: a = b^2 + 1; b = a - 1 -- a is {-2,-1}, b is {-3,-2}
02:08:44 <Mathnerd314> or maybe I have that wrong
02:08:46 <elliott> ok ... do you have any actual implementation strategy for this? :)
02:09:01 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no. but I have lots of special cases.
02:09:12 <elliott> Mathnerd314: so it's not really a construct so much as a heap of special cases :)
02:10:05 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no, I can describe it simply: fixed-points of the given equations
02:10:21 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ok, but it's not really much of a construct if it doesn't have an implementation that isn't a heap of special cases
02:10:49 <Mathnerd314> right... it's too powerful to have one implementation that works all the time
02:11:10 <elliott> i think we have different definitions of power
02:11:21 <elliott> but hey, it'll fit right in to mathematica :P
02:11:54 <Mathnerd314> that's the main point: integrate math and programming so well you don't notice the difference
02:12:35 <elliott> Mathnerd314: have you ever used mathematica?
02:12:38 <elliott> you'll love it.
02:12:43 <elliott> well at least until you realise how hateful it is.
02:13:00 <Mathnerd314> a = 1 + a -- various types of infinity (-infinity and infinity for reals, set {0,1,2,3} for Z_4, etc.)
02:13:12 <elliott> -infinity and infinity aren't reals
02:13:31 <Mathnerd314> well, reals extended to limits
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02:14:30 <elliott> deewiant floating http://imgur.com/5fLbZ.png
02:14:46 * Mathnerd314 used mathematica until he met Stephan Wolfram
02:14:53 <coppro> +1
02:15:05 <coppro> I have not met him
02:15:08 <coppro> but he seems errrrgh
02:15:56 <elliott> he's funny :)
02:16:28 <elliott> "my brilliant mind was correct! it's universal! i'm a genius! a genius! i tell you! p.s. thanks to ais523 who helped fellate my ego by proving it but who cares about that"
02:18:05 <tswett> Mathnerd314: I'd like to see a formal definition of this construct.
02:18:34 <tswett> Speaking of constructs, I've been pondering languages that are based as much as possible on a single thing.
02:18:52 <tswett> Like a language where the only thing there is is the associative array, or the semaphore.
02:19:02 <tswett> Or the continuation.
02:19:33 <Mathnerd314> tswett: {variable assignments s.t. all equalities are satisfies}
02:19:49 <Mathnerd314> s/s}/d}/
02:20:11 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ok, so it's... an equation!
02:20:33 <Mathnerd314> elliott: right, I guess the key is in which types of values you have
02:20:48 <elliott> what?
02:21:25 <Mathnerd314> elliott: the variables can be assigned *sets* of values
02:21:44 <Mathnerd314> e.g. a = {1,2,3,4,...} is a legitimate result
02:21:44 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ok... so it's an equation. some equations have multiple solutions.
02:21:54 <elliott> that's... a rather old mathematical result, one would think
02:21:58 <Mathnerd314> elliott: but it has more solutions
02:22:04 <elliott> Mathnerd314: more solutions than what
02:22:10 <tswett> Mathnerd314: so it's a function that takes a set of equations, and returns the set of all values that satisfy the equations?
02:23:13 <Mathnerd314> elliott: than normal equation solving. e.g. a = !a has solution {True,False}
02:23:17 <elliott> c = root(n, a^n + b^n), n = 3+x
02:23:22 <elliott> fuck yeah!
02:23:34 <elliott> Mathnerd314: but True = !True isn't true at all
02:23:37 <elliott> and False = !False isn't true, either
02:23:40 <elliott> so that's a meaningless result
02:23:49 <elliott> and I don't think you can define results like that even *slightly* in the general case
02:24:07 <Mathnerd314> elliott: but !{True,False}={!True,!False} = {False,True} = {True,False}
02:24:24 <Mathnerd314> that's why it's weirdly powerful
02:24:43 <Mathnerd314> because it will *always* assign values
02:24:46 <elliott> Mathnerd314: ok, but you can define that with normal equations too, more or less.
02:24:58 <elliott> I mean, solving "a = !a" over sets of booleans
02:25:00 <elliott> and you get that result
02:25:12 <tswett> Mathnerd314: if so, then what constants and operators are allowed in the equations, and what values are considered to be possible solutions?
02:25:17 <Mathnerd314> right... that was what I was saying
02:25:59 <elliott> Mathnerd314: so it's an equation. :P
02:26:08 <Mathnerd314> tswett: it's defined on general functions, so you can really extend it to any domain
02:26:24 <Mathnerd314> elliott: but it always has solutions, which is not a property of most things
02:26:33 <elliott> Mathnerd314: c = root(n, a^n + b^n), n = 3+x
02:26:35 <elliott> Mathnerd314: what's the solution?
02:26:55 <Mathnerd314> elliott: an equation set dependent on x
02:26:58 <elliott> anyway the function that takes a set of equations and returns a set of bindings that satisfy those equations is... mathematics in a function
02:27:04 <elliott> Mathematica already has your heap of special cases
02:27:06 <elliott> it's called Solve
02:27:20 <elliott> Mathnerd314: erm you /do/ realise it has no solutions, right?
02:27:23 <elliott> it's fermat
02:27:31 <tswett> Mathnerd314: well, if you say "all functions are allowed", then it simply inherits the power of all the functions that you can stick into it.
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02:27:54 <Mathnerd314> tswett: right... so it's definitely at least as powerful as lambda
02:28:09 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that's misleading.
02:28:15 <elliott> It isn't "at least as powerful as"; it's all-powerful.
02:28:19 <Mathnerd314> elliott: no solutions over integers, maybe. but I can construct lots of others
02:28:20 <elliott> It can solve any theorem.
02:28:29 <Mathnerd314> elliott: probably :p
02:28:40 <elliott> Mathnerd314: c = root(n, a^n + b^n), n = 3+x, a = floor(a), b = floor(b), n = floor(b)
02:28:45 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Go on, gimme a solution.
02:29:03 <tswett> Mathnerd314: what you have is a bit like HQ9+B. It's a Turing-complete programming language with five instructions: H, Q, 9, +, and B.
02:29:04 <elliott> Anyway, it isn't "at least as powerful as" for another reason: it doesn't replace lambda, it depends on it -- it depends on functions to work.
02:29:08 <elliott> So it isn't really a control structure at all.
02:29:15 <elliott> tswett: What does B stand for? :-P
02:29:22 <tswett> Mathnerd314: but the instruction B simply executes the remainder of the program as Brainfuck, and that's where all the power lies.
02:29:33 <Mathnerd314> elliott: everything set to infinity
02:29:40 <Mathnerd314> :p
02:30:05 <elliott> Mathnerd314: c = root(n, a^n + b^n), n = 3+x, a = floor(a), b = floor(b), n = floor(b), a+1 != a, b+1 != b, n+1 != b
02:30:12 <tswett> Mathnerd314: your construct allows arbitrary things from set theory to be included. But set theory is already Turing-complete and more.
02:30:16 <elliott> Presumably you allow !=, since it's all-powerful /anyway/ you might as well make it even more fun.
02:30:44 <elliott> tswett: What /is/ the computational class of a machine that can work out every solution to a given equation, or tell you if there are none, anyway?
02:30:45 <tswett> Mathnerd314: you could just say "x = the result of running the following Brainfuck program: ..."
02:30:53 <elliott> Apart from "the highest computational class even theoretically possible".
02:31:06 <tswett> elliott: essentially, this takes questions in set theory and answers them.
02:31:18 <elliott> tswett: Yes, yes, I'm just asking a side-question.
02:31:21 <tswett> Which... is a pretty high computational class. :P
02:31:24 <zzo38> Do you know anything about weather systems?
02:31:25 <elliott> tswett: Is the computational class of a machine that can do that even /named/?
02:31:27 <elliott> It's pretty insane :P
02:31:36 <tswett> Yeah. I wonder how well-defined it is.
02:31:44 <Mathnerd314> tswett: don't forget: it gives multiple answers too
02:32:04 <Mathnerd314> it's *ambiguous*, so it's always well-defined
02:32:13 <elliott> tswett: I think it's well-defined but *almost certainly* not physically possible :P
02:32:39 <elliott> tswett: I mean, you can verify any theorem in O(1) time (well, if the machine can do it in O(1)).
02:32:46 <elliott> More importantly: You can verify any theorem haltingly.
02:32:51 <elliott> Any theorem! Any!
02:32:58 <elliott> Well, any expressable in ZFC or whatever.
02:33:01 <elliott> Which is an awful lot.
02:34:35 <Mathnerd314> elliott: right, it can "do" the halting problem, by giving {true,false} as well as true and false
02:34:49 <elliott> Mathnerd314: that...
02:34:54 <elliott> Mathnerd314: no, you can't do that.
02:35:01 <elliott> that doesn't make sense even in the framework of your definition
02:35:36 <zzo38> Do you know anything about weather systems that you can make some weather in a computer game and that the captain can sometimes predict the weather from it?
02:37:06 <Mathnerd314> elliott: hmm, I'm missing the inconsistency
02:37:51 <tswett> Mathnerd314: can it always return {true,false}, or only sometimes?
02:37:53 <elliott> Mathnerd314: {True,False} = Halts(P,P)
02:37:58 <elliott> that makes no real sense, at all
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02:41:55 <zzo38> Does anyone know anything about weather in here at all?
02:47:11 <zzo38> Do you know which channel and on which network can help?
02:50:39 <Mathnerd314> tswett: only when the input depends on the output. it returns the *least* fixed point.
02:50:51 <Mathnerd314> that's not the empty set
02:52:50 <Mathnerd314> hmm, I detect a distinct silence due to lack of elliott
03:24:07 <zzo38> " !!!"
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04:35:58 <Gregor> 🍱 have a Unicode BENTO BOX
04:39:48 <zzo38> Gregor: I do not have that font
04:39:57 <Gregor> zzo38: No one does :P
04:40:09 <Gregor> It's Unicode 6, only been out for a month and a half.
04:40:44 <zzo38> Gregor: I believe you.
04:40:53 <pikhq> yûnikotò hènntô? sukề!
04:40:54 <myndzi\> wait what
04:41:00 <myndzi\> it's actually a bento box?
04:41:01 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
04:41:12 <myndzi> or are you just joking, because it's a box (no character)
04:41:23 <Gregor> myndzi: 🏩 maybe you would like to enjoy the delicious 🍱 Unicode BENTO BOX in a Unicode LOVE HOTEL
04:41:30 <myndzi> lol.
04:41:58 <pikhq> ... They *actually put* LOVE HOTEL in‽
04:42:34 <Gregor> pikhq: 👅 I am sticking my Unicode TONGUE out at your lack of faith in Unicode!
04:42:37 <myndzi> no, he must certainly be joking
04:42:52 <myndzi> unless maybe we are talking about kanji, but that was not the impression i got
04:43:30 <zzo38> There are many things I do not like about unicode. One is that you need a lot of unicode tables to parse properly which are wide and text direction and various other properties.
04:43:31 <Gregor> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/miscellaneous_symbols_and_pictographs/list.htm
04:43:38 <myndzi> apparently love hotel is only hiragana
04:43:50 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Uh, katakana.
04:43:59 <myndzi> wait what
04:44:03 <myndzi> there really is?!
04:44:05 <myndzi> D:
04:44:09 <pikhq> Surely "rabu hoteru" should be katakana.
04:44:28 <myndzi> oh, i don't know
04:44:33 <Gregor> myndzi: There really, truly is :P
04:44:36 <zzo38> pikhq: I believe it probably should be too. Is that a term in Japanese that means something?
04:44:40 <myndzi> i didn't know if it should be katakana or not
04:44:52 <myndzi> but since i've only heard the term in anime i thought it was native
04:45:06 <zzo38> Actually I found out what it means on Wikipedia
04:45:08 <myndzi> also it is obvious that this is katakana, but i didn't bother to consider it
04:45:18 <pikhq> zzo38: It's a hotel that exists for the sake of people having sex.
04:45:31 <myndzi> ?????
04:45:34 <zzo38> It is a Japanese word though. It is based on two English words.
04:45:38 <myndzi> why so display only mirc
04:45:39 <myndzi> ラブホテル
04:45:46 <myndzi> i guess so, but whatever
04:45:55 <zzo38> Some Japanese words are a compound word based on an English word together with a Japanese word.
04:46:13 <pikhq> Yeah, wasei eigo (Japanese-made English) is not that rare.
04:46:23 <myndzi> bridge at night
04:46:24 <myndzi> wtf
04:46:36 <pikhq> And it sometimes gets put back into English!
04:46:39 <Gregor> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/index.htm UNICODE - PILE - OF - POO
04:46:41 <pikhq> (e.g. karaoke, anime)
04:46:51 <myndzi> i mean, that doesn't even make a good symbol because it's inverted
04:46:58 <myndzi> HAHA
04:47:08 <pikhq> Oh, and Pokémon.
04:47:13 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes it does come back into English too sometimes!
04:47:17 <myndzi> o rly
04:47:23 <myndzi> what english word is pokemon based on
04:47:27 <zzo38> Yes, karaoke, anime, and pokemon are all words that partially or fully in English
04:47:31 <zzo38> myndzi: Pocket Monsters
04:47:47 <pikhq> "Pocket monsters" → "poketto monsutāzu" → "pokemon"
04:48:08 <zzo38> pikhq: I don't think there is a "zu" in it.
04:48:34 <pikhq> zzo38: Ah, sure enough, they never put that syllable in.
04:48:39 <zzo38> And then the words like karaoke,anime,pokemon are in Japanese, and then are used also in English.
04:49:14 <pikhq> Karaoke, BTW, is from "kara" (empty) and "orchestra".
04:49:29 <zzo38> pikhq: That is because that syllable does not belong. It is not based on a English thing called "pocket monsters", it is based on the English words "pocket" and "monsters", therefore the "zu" does not belong.
04:49:31 <pikhq> And "anime" is fairly obviously a shortening of "animation".
04:49:43 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know where the words "karaoke" and "anime" are from.
04:49:45 <pikhq> zzo38: Sure it does. "Monsters" is not pronounced "Monster".
04:49:51 <myndzi> oh, right
04:49:58 <Gregor> Unicode SILHOUETTE OF JAPAN
04:49:59 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, but who else does here?
04:50:00 <Gregor> ... yes.
04:50:03 <zzo38> pikhq: No it doesn't. They don't use plural in Japanese.
04:50:10 <pikhq> zzo38: English does.
04:50:22 <myndzi> why is there a bunch of japanese stuff in there, why isn't there a silhouette of micronesia?
04:50:33 <pikhq> zzo38: And they *usually* follow English pluralisation patterns for English words.
04:50:45 <pikhq> myndzi: They encoded emoji.
04:51:15 <myndzi> BUT NO BLACK HAND
04:51:17 <zzo38> If it was coming from a English phrase called "pocket monsters", then it would have the "zu" in the end. But it is not based on a phrase, it is based on the two words individually.
04:51:18 <myndzi> RACIST ASSHOLES
04:51:46 <pikhq> zzo38: I can confirm that it was marketed as "Pocket Monsters" in Japan.
04:51:48 <zzo38> pikhq: How can you know? Are you Japanese??
04:52:04 <pikhq> zzo38: No, but I've played the game in Japanese!
04:52:57 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes it was marketed as "Pocket Monsters" but that is because they turned it into Japanese and then into English words. Such combined abbreviated words like "pokemon" and "daburii" is common in Japanese.
04:53:14 <pikhq> myndzi: Anyways. These are all from the emoticon/pictograph set on various Japanese cell carriers.
04:53:35 <pikhq> myndzi: The Japanocentric nature of that should be clear. :)
04:54:12 <zzo38> I have played some Japanese games too, I am not Japanese either. I also read Japanese manga book, too.
04:54:28 * Mathnerd314 hates fonts
04:54:36 <Gregor> Should I buy unicodelovehotelforyou.com or unicodelovehotelforus.com?
04:54:36 <pikhq> 日本語で?
04:54:56 <zzo38> Gregor: It depends.
04:55:10 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Clearly we should all just read bits.
04:55:28 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: no, we read pixel pattern
04:55:30 <Mathnerd314> *s
04:55:36 <pikhq> Thereby solving a wide variety of i18n issues.
04:55:40 <zzo38> *Now* can you understand why there is no "zu" in "poketto monsutaa"? It is clear to me. Why don't you understand?
04:56:09 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: we read code, not language
04:56:12 <pikhq> zzo38: Because it's a transcription of an English phrase.
04:56:25 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: everyone knows C++, right?
04:56:39 <zzo38> pikhq: No it isn't. It is a transcription of two English words. It was then later translated into an English phrase.
04:56:51 <pikhq> zzo38: That said, Japanese transcription of English phrases can be completely and utterly *bizarre* sometimes, so whatever.
04:57:16 <Gregor> Come on, anybody? Real opinions? Should I buy unicodelovehotelforyou.com or unicodelovehotelforus.com?
04:57:19 <pikhq> Moræ make things weird.
04:57:38 <zzo38> Mathnerd314: I know C, I don't know much of C++.
04:57:46 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Nobody knows C++.
04:58:06 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: ok, but surely everyone knows English...
04:58:10 <zzo38> pikhq: No, some people program in C++, I think Microsoft does.
04:58:30 <pikhq> zzo38: They program a small subset of C++.
04:58:41 <zzo38> Mathnerd314: Not everyone knows English either, and some concepts are difficult to mean in English.
04:58:45 <pikhq> Knowledge of the whole will ruin your mind forever.
04:58:55 <zzo38> Which is why mathematics is used, is one thing.
04:59:12 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: ok, everyone knows mathematics...
04:59:48 <pikhq> Sadly, no.
04:59:56 <zzo38> Mathnerd314: Not everyone knows mathematics either, but it is commonly known by mathematicians and so on in anywhere, and can specify things less ambiguous. Of course, it only specifies mathematical things!
05:00:59 <zzo38> Tell me, what you can understand from the following English phrase: charities for poor people and monsters with names starting with "A"
05:01:08 <zzo38> Is it ambiguous?
05:03:08 <Mathnerd314> yes... ambiguous languages are the best kind
05:03:41 <Mathnerd314> mathematics is ambiguous, out of context
05:04:42 <zzo38> Mathnerd314: Yes, out of context you cannot know what is the purpose of a mathematical formula, but that is because there is no information, not because there is multiple ways to interpret it.
05:04:51 <zzo38> (Even if there is multiple ways to interpret it)
05:06:19 <Mathnerd314> same thing with English; you can find out
05:07:54 <zzo38> Yes, you can find out. Sometimes.
05:08:46 <Mathnerd314> similarly in math; and if you don't understand, you ask
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05:13:16 <zzo38> Yes.
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08:27:56 <lifthrasiir> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f499/index.htm Unicode is not for color blinds either. (also see U+1F49A..1F49C)
08:33:17 <fizzie> There's also green book/blue book/orange book (1f47[d-f]).
08:33:29 <fizzie> Sorry, 1f4d[7-9] instead.
08:33:42 <fizzie> I apparently have early-onset dysxelia.
08:35:26 <fizzie> The whole block is so random. Silhouette of Japan? Orange/blue diamonds, but red/blue circles and red triangles?
08:37:04 <lifthrasiir> that's because the entire pictograms added in Unicode 6.0 are originated from Emojis, which are inherently random
08:47:35 <zzo38> !!!
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11:42:12 <elliott> fizzie: figured out how to merge fonts yet? :P
11:45:25 <elliott> Wow, FontForge truly does have a uniquely bad interface.
11:47:55 <fizzie> Didn't even try. It is pretty special.
11:49:38 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, I've merged the two fonts ... ... HOW THE HELL DO YOU RENAME A FONT?!?!?!
11:49:49 <elliott> (Thankfully merging was a direct menu item.)
11:50:01 <fizzie> Maybe you just start a new font and copy all the characters there.
11:50:09 <elliott> (Like every other operation in the known universe other than useful ones.)
11:50:19 <elliott> fizzie: No, you open the base font and merge it with the font-you-like.
11:50:23 <elliott> Now how do you rename a font. :p
11:50:28 <fizzie> No, I mean, for renaming.
11:50:32 <elliott> Oh.
11:50:41 <elliott> I'm going to hope that's not the case and keep trying :P
11:50:51 <elliott> Aha.
11:50:52 <fizzie> It's probably not a good idea, no.
11:51:29 <elliott> "Droid-DejaVu Sans Mono"; I am the creative.
11:52:10 <elliott> Validating... Your font contains ERRORS! NYAH!
11:53:09 <elliott> HA.
11:53:14 <elliott> It appears to be very DejaVu.
11:54:13 <elliott> fizzie: What GUI toolkit *is* this?
11:54:58 <fizzie> aptitude show fontforge → Tags: implemented-in::c, interface::x11, role::program, scope::application, uitoolkit::xlib, use::editing, works-with::font, x11::application
11:55:30 <elliott> fizzie: So, wait... if it uses Xlib directly, somebody actually *programmed* the buttons to have such frickin' gigantic borders?
11:55:48 <elliott> Does this person still walk the streets of polite society?
11:56:02 <fizzie> I.. think so. The dependencies don't seem to have anything relevant, at least.
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11:59:20 <elliott> fizzie: If we act calmly and rationally, we can save humanity before it is too late.
12:00:20 <elliott> Joy, the merged-the-other-way one still uses the DejaVu glyphs. I think it literally duplicates glyphs rather than selecting one, or something.
12:04:17 <elliott> fizzie: "
12:04:17 <elliott> The third approach was in fact the one I tried first, using Merge Fonts.
12:04:17 <elliott> I removed all the non-Khmer characters from KhmerOS Freehand except space, zero-width space, zero-width joiner and zero-width non-joiner (U+200B, 200C, 200D). Then I attempted the merge. The system crashed both times I tried it."
12:04:26 <elliott> Oh man, it's stable too!!!!
12:05:14 <elliott> fizzie: It... has search and replace.
12:05:16 <elliott> On splines.
12:05:17 <elliott> What.
12:05:23 <fizzie> Heh.
12:06:04 <elliott> I like how it has a scrollbar.
12:06:17 <elliott> Like, oh yeah, have fun scrolling through Unicode, pal!
12:06:38 <fizzie> I think FontForge was involved when I truetypified the rfk86 font for web-use, but somehow my mind has completely blanked off any details.
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12:08:27 <elliott> I think mine is valiantly attempting to do so now.
12:08:44 <elliott> Did you get a searing migraine too?
12:08:57 <elliott> WOOOOO IT WORKS
12:09:04 <elliott> Wait, what have I been doing for the past fifteen minutes?
12:09:07 <elliott> I don't remember anything.
12:09:48 <fizzie> Possibly. I wrote a Perl script to generate a SVG font, and then somehow it has turned into .ttf, but I don't know how.
12:09:53 <elliott> This is done in the manner proposed by W.W. Sawyer in his
12:09:53 <elliott> Vision in Elementary Mathematics (Penguin Books, 1964). In
12:09:53 <elliott> particular, his method avoids clothing the simple ideas of
12:09:53 <elliott> addition and multiplication in the much more complex ideas
12:09:53 <elliott> inherent in the decimal system.
12:09:54 <elliott> --J
12:10:03 <elliott> fizzie: Probably pixies.
12:12:09 <elliott> Yay, I have a proper J environment with a nice font and looking-enough-like-GTK-that-you-can't-tell-it's-Java-until-you-try-and-use-it.
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12:26:17 <elliott> Man, I wish ais523 knew how confusing his patch format is.
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12:57:29 <elliott> fizzie: So when do we get X-Ray-O-Vision. :p
12:57:34 <elliott> (Clearly bugging you will help!)
12:58:14 <fizzie> Maybe I'll put it somewhere as a communal christmas present.
12:58:30 <fizzie> (Except that I'm pretty sure the beta update will break it on the 20th.)
13:01:00 <fizzie> (The protocol doesn't have any sort of overall format, so it needs to know all the packet IDs that go through the pipe in order to be able to determine the packet length, to know where the next packet will start.)
13:02:33 <Ilari> Doesn't sound like good protocol design...
13:02:51 <fizzie> No, but I wasn't expecting it to be.
13:03:40 <elliott> fizzie: Can I bribe you for early access? :p
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13:09:20 <fizzie> I don't think I'm very bribable. But maybe I'll get a... uh, what's two steps before an alpha version? ... out tomorrow or so; I just need to add markers for other players, keys to look at other z-levels than the player's own in cross-section mode, surface/cross-section mode toggling with something else than a recompile, and handling of those "user removed/placed a block" packets since currently it doesn't actually update the map when you dig.
13:09:35 <fizzie> (Except if you place a torch, because the changing light-values will make the server send out a chunk update.)
13:11:11 <elliott> fizzie: Aw, but /I/ was looking forward to the low-hanging-fruit-with-large-gratification task of adding keys to look at other z-levels. :p
13:27:24 <elliott> Clearly what fizzie really needs to release his code early is a version control system to store it in. I wonder if he would like my 36-line file of scapegoat patch theory!
13:27:29 <elliott> SO TEMPTING
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13:41:12 <elliott> <3 j
13:41:17 <elliott> !y = */>:i.y
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13:41:34 <elliott> factorial y = multiply over increment integers y
13:44:15 <fizzie> f = @(y) prod(1:y)
13:44:50 <elliott> fizzie: Pssht.
13:45:23 <elliott> fizzie: Product of the sums of M lists of N random integers from 0 to X.
13:45:26 <elliott> Go go go.
13:45:43 <elliott> fizzie: (You can just put "M", "N" and "X" there, rather than making them actual parameters.)
13:45:59 <elliott> Oh, and that's 0 <= random < X.
13:46:25 <elliott> fizzie: My entry: */+/?M N$X
13:46:28 <fizzie> prod(sum(randi(X, N, M)))
13:46:37 <elliott> fizzie: WHOOPS LOOK AT THAT YOURS IS LONGER
13:46:41 <elliott> And more nested too!
13:46:43 <fizzie> How surprising.
13:47:39 <elliott> fizzie: Random positive 32-bit integer calculated by setting every bit to 0 or 1 with probability 1/2.
13:48:00 <elliott> #.?32$2
13:48:46 <fizzie> That's just random integer in the [0, 2^32-1] range.
13:48:56 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, it is, but it's the implementation details that matter.
13:49:14 <fizzie> Well, it's going to be long and ugly if you want it like that, but just a moment.
13:49:30 <elliott> fizzie: You don't think I'm /aiming/ for long, ugly and unreadable code on your part? :-P
13:50:15 <fizzie> sum((randi(2, 1, 32)-1) .* 2.^(0:31))
13:50:33 <elliott> fizzie: Wow, that is truly awful.
13:51:08 <fizzie> It's a 1x32 matrix of random bits, element-wise multiplied by [2^0 2^1 .. 2^31] and then sum'd.
13:51:23 <elliott> fizzie: I'd challenge you to implement a finite state machine... but, uh: [[
13:51:23 <elliott> x;:y implements a sequential machine (finite state machine, finite state automaton). x is the specification of a machine, including the state transition table, and y is the input. A sequential machine solves the problem of recognizing the “words” in the input. The machine starts in some initial state and processes the input one item at a time; given the current state and input item, the new state and output are determined by the state transit
13:51:24 <elliott> ion table. The machine then proceeds to process the next input item.]]
13:51:28 <elliott> I think I would win that one. :p
13:52:44 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a FSM toolbox, but, well, it's going to be longer than that; just the function-call parens take two chars.
13:53:13 <elliott> fizzie: To be fair, x /is/ a rather ugly boxed thing: "y is any array and x=.f;s;m;ijrd is a boxed list from which ijrd or both m and ijrd may be elided."
13:53:20 <elliott> But it would be shorter anyway. :p
13:53:30 <elliott> fizzie: Now: A fully-functional Minecraft server!
13:53:36 <elliott> Calling out to C is permitted as long as you provide the C source.
13:57:24 <fizzie> MATLAB's forte is the existing stuff. Let's see your J implementation of training a feed-forward neural network with Levenberg-Marquardt backpropagation; in MATLAB it's train(net,data).
14:00:02 <elliott> fizzie: M-CPM-=M-tlM-
14:00:06 <elliott> fizzie: Two characters shorter, I believe.
14:01:10 <fizzie> I am not sure if I should trust you there.
14:01:45 <elliott> fizzie: M-CPM is the module name (they're named sequentially, alphabetically; not much logic to that, immediately).
14:01:53 <elliott> Note: I'm full of shit; it's cat -v /dev/urandom output.
14:02:23 <elliott> fizzie: But admit it... for a second you felt the pangs of using an inferior language.
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14:04:58 <fizzie> Yes, though in an incident completely unrelated to this one. (I was trying to pick a random sample from a nonparametric discrete distribution which I had the PDF -- well, non-normalized, but anyway -- for, and the only single-line MATLAB solution I could figure out was pretty crappy.)
14:05:45 <fizzie> [~, t] = histc(rand(), [0 cumsum(d)]/sum(d)); -- to do "t = 1 .. length(d) randomly, with the probability of getting i proportional to d(i)".
14:06:11 <elliott> fizzie: That's probably really short in J, but I'm too lazy and inexperienced to work it out.
14:06:46 * elliott watches Deewiant's loop-booster make a round.
14:06:50 <elliott> Heh, it looks so silly when it turns.
14:06:54 -!- sftp has joined.
14:06:56 <elliott> fizzie: Have you got any iron I can borrow in MC?
14:06:57 <fizzie> The statistics toolbox has a random() function that takes a PDF, but it doesn't take matrices; it just takes "ProbDist" class objects, and the only ones I could figure out to create were either out of ~30 families of parametric distributions, or a non-parametric kernel-smoothing-fit-to-data thing.
14:07:24 <elliott> fizzie: I'm not sure why you'd store data in PDFs. ARF ARF ARF
14:07:27 <fizzie> Only in my safe place, and not too much. How much would you need?
14:07:37 <elliott> fizzie: Enough for about... two Minecart tracks?
14:07:56 <elliott> I mean, just as a unit of measurement.
14:08:12 <elliott> fizzie: I can pay it back, next time I go to Mount Hoover.
14:08:30 <fizzie> That's, what, 12 ingots? I guess I could donate that much, but I'm not sure when I'll have time to visit the World.
14:08:37 <elliott> 12? Is it? Yow.
14:08:51 <elliott> They look so flimsy.
14:09:03 <fizzie> It's |-| where the ||s are iron and - is a stick or a plank, either-or.
14:09:07 <elliott> Hmm, I have 4 ores on me, but no smelty.
14:09:17 <fizzie> That is "either-or" in the "can't remember which" sense, not in the "anything goes" sense.
14:09:38 <elliott> fizzie: Heh; increasing the height of the default window size just slightly makes the inventory and chat 1:1 pixels.
14:09:45 <elliott> And the crafting grid tiny.
14:09:56 <fizzie> Or, well (Orwell); that is the recipe, but you do get 16 tracks out of it.
14:10:11 <fizzie> You just can't get them in smaller increments.
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14:12:32 <fizzie> I haven't quite figured out the UI sizing logic. I use the 960x1200 window for playing, and the UI elements are reasonably sized; but if I open a full-screen window, they are annoyingly huge and space-wasting. I guess it scales (or at least tries to) aspect-ratio-preserving.
14:12:54 <elliott> fizzie: Can Matlab's interpret-this-list-of-integers-as-digits-in-base-N function accepts arguments LARGER than the base???
14:12:58 <elliott> 10 #. 1 2 3
14:12:58 <elliott> 123
14:12:58 <elliott> 10 #. 1 2 11
14:12:58 <elliott> 131
14:13:07 <elliott> And equ
14:13:10 <elliott> *equal to, for that matter.
14:13:52 <elliott> 1A34Z_10 = 20365
14:13:55 <elliott> _10
14:13:57 <elliott> that is
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14:14:15 <fizzie> Wellll, yes, in the sense that it doesn't have a "interpret this list of integers as digits in base-N" function, and if you do it the way I did that rand32, it's just a sum-multiply-powers-of-N thing, and there it of course will.
14:15:03 <fizzie> >> sum([1 2 11] .* 10.^(2:-1:0))
14:15:03 <fizzie> ans =
14:15:03 <fizzie> 131
14:15:36 <elliott> 1.3 #. 1 2 3
14:15:36 <elliott> 7.29
14:15:43 <elliott> fizzie: Fractional bases, does it do them? Presumably.
14:16:23 <elliott> fizzie: What about complex bases?
14:16:24 <elliott> 3j10 #. 1 2 3
14:16:24 <elliott> _82j80
14:16:26 <elliott> (_ is negative)
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14:17:31 <fizzie> Well, What does 3j10 mean? 3+10*i?
14:17:49 <fizzie> >> sum([1 2 3] .* (3+10*j).^(2:-1:0))
14:17:49 <fizzie> ans =
14:17:49 <fizzie> -82.0000 +80.0000i
14:17:51 <fizzie> I guess so.
14:18:04 <elliott> fizzie: 3j10 is 3+10i, yes.
14:18:06 <fizzie> There might be a complex-number literal format, too.
14:18:23 <fizzie> Yes, the * in my expression is superfluous.
14:18:36 <FireFly> Is that J I see there?
14:19:04 <elliott> FireFly: Yup.
14:19:11 <fizzie> There's more J in the logs if you look closely.
14:19:30 <elliott> fizzie: The string 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, interpreted in base N!, where N is a random number picked by selecting 8 random bit values and interpreting them in base 2.
14:19:34 <elliott> And N! is of course N factorial.
14:19:37 <elliott> (!#.?4$2)#.>:i.10
14:19:37 <elliott> 2036
14:19:39 <elliott> Your entry?
14:20:05 <elliott> (It is acceptable to say "I don't like you." at this point.)
14:22:04 <fizzie> I don't like the "random bit values in base 2" thing, since it's completely identical to "random integer in the range" value-wise.
14:22:13 <fizzie> But I can write that down if you like, assuming it fits in my terminal.
14:22:35 <elliott> fizzie: OK, I'll redo the random bit values in base 2 thing.
14:22:49 <fizzie> With something more horrible, I guess.
14:24:08 <elliott> fizzie: N = The base-3 interpretation of 2 random numbers in the range [0,1] (at least I think 1 is included; it might not actually be), both multiplied by ten.
14:24:11 <elliott> You still need to do the factorial thing.
14:24:14 <elliott> (!3#.10*?2$0)#.>:i.10
14:24:14 <elliott> 5.39227e234
14:24:15 <elliott> Your move.
14:24:39 <elliott> fizzie: (The rest of the challenge still applies.)
14:25:49 <fizzie> >> sum((1:10) .* prod(1:sum(10*rand(1,2).*[3 1])).^(9:-1:0))
14:25:49 <fizzie> ans =
14:25:49 <fizzie> 2.3719e+177
14:26:13 <elliott> fizzie: rand(1,2) includes 1.5, surely?
14:26:30 <fizzie> No, it's 1x2 sized matrix of [0, 1) uniform-distributed random numbers.
14:26:39 <elliott> Ah.
14:26:46 <elliott> <elliott> fizzie: The string 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, interpreted in base N!, where N is a random number picked by selecting 8 random bit values and interpreting them in base 2.
14:26:54 <elliott> fizzie: Does it do /all/ of that?
14:26:59 <elliott> Except with the new N definition.
14:27:03 <elliott> Just checking.
14:27:47 <fizzie> Yes. prod(1:...) does "N!", taking that .^(9:-1:0) gives the proper products, that's multiplied elementwise by 1:10 (the list [1 2 3 .. 10]) and then the result is sum'd together.
14:28:24 <elliott> fizzie: OK, that's not bad, not bad.
14:28:32 <elliott> Still not as good as (!3#.10*?2$0)#.>:i.10, of course.
14:28:48 <fizzie> I did the "base 3 interpretation of two numbers times ten" a bit cheatingly, though, with that manual [3 1] multiplication, but... as I said, there's no real "interpret in base-N" built-in. (Unless there is.)
14:28:49 <elliott> That 2$0 is probably clearer as 0 0.
14:29:11 <elliott> fizzie: I'd randomise the number of digits but I'm not that cruel and it'd overflow J's integer.
14:29:50 <elliott> s.
14:29:52 <elliott> (Probably.)
14:30:04 <elliott> Well, okay, so it's not an integer.
14:31:09 <fizzie> Using a separate function for base-n "decoding" would simplify the MATLAB version a lot.
14:31:11 <fizzie> >> bn = @(b,d) sum(d .* b.^(length(d)-1:-1:0));
14:31:11 <fizzie> >> bn(prod(1:bn(3, 10*rand(1,2))), 1:10)
14:31:11 <fizzie> ans =
14:31:11 <fizzie> 6.5004e+291
14:31:22 <fizzie> Well, maybe "a lot" is a bit too much to say.
14:31:42 <FireFly> Btw, elliott, I find http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm to be a great reference for J
14:32:00 <elliott> FireFly: Yeah, you can get that by hitting F1 inside J.
14:32:05 <FireFly> Ah
14:32:09 <elliott> Very useful
14:32:17 <FireFly> I usually use the command-line frontend
14:32:24 <elliott> FireFly: Why would you do that :)
14:32:25 <fizzie> And there's a built-in factorial, but it takes more characters; prod(1:N) vs. factorial(N).
14:32:25 <FireFly> Err
14:32:31 <FireFly> The terminal-based one, that is
14:32:33 <FireFly> I dunno
14:32:45 <elliott> (Okay, so the GUI one is Java. It is nice though.)
14:34:31 <elliott> Hmph, making Minecraft texture packs looks like a pain.
14:34:38 <elliott> (I want to see what 1x1 textures look like.)
14:37:27 <elliott> Oh, wait, it looks like it's all in one file.
14:44:36 <quintopia> i gotta hand it to matlab on the readability here. ...not that line noise isn't fun too.
14:47:26 <fizzie> Gnaa, horrible dumbing-down of text: http://www.shopexplorer.com/news/squarehead-audioscope-zoom-in-on-sound.html -- "Once a subject has been selected, the required microphone picks up the audio by amplifying the source, while the other mics are turned down." That's so not how it works; all sensible beamforming systems use the whole set of microphones and the known-from-geometry delays, not just "hay we have a directional microphone pointing at the source, let'
14:47:26 <fizzie> s turn that on".
14:47:48 <fizzie> What's worse, it's like they've taken the description directly from the company page, except then removed the parts they didn't understand.
14:48:27 <fizzie> "AudioScope is based on the same principle as sonar. A dish with an array of microphones can locate and record sound anywhere in a large room. A speaker's voice in an auditorium is picked up by all the microphones on the dish. Depending on the position of each microphone, the sound will reach them at a slightly different time. We use this to our advantage." → "It works in a similar way to sonar; a central dish houses a number of microphones within it that poi
14:48:28 <fizzie> nt in slightly different directions and a camera is used to view the source area. Once a subject has been selected, the required microphone picks up the audio by amplifying the source, while the other mics are turned down."
14:49:12 <fizzie> (I'd like to hear that in action, incidentally.)
14:49:35 <quintopia> an electronic implementation of auditory attention!
14:49:55 <quintopia> does it do spectral analysis to narrow in on the interesting part of the spectrum too?
14:50:57 <fizzie> They don't tell that sort of stuff, of course, since it's a commercial product.
14:51:20 <quintopia> i want to see a robot that is capable of the cocktail party effect, capable of integrating visual cues such as a speaker's mouth moving, with the lingual auditory information
14:51:45 <quintopia> s/lingual/linguistic/
14:52:32 <fizzie> That's being done in several places, I think.
14:52:40 <fizzie> Academically, I mean.
14:52:51 <fizzie> I'm not aware of any actual product-development projects.
14:54:42 <quintopia> ah, you don't know who is doing it?
14:56:13 <fizzie> Not offhand. The auditory/visual combination thing was one of the topics in our "learning from multiple sources" course; I've forgotten the name of the robotics EU project that was doing exactly that that a visiting guy from another university talked about; and I just recall seeing rather many references to the whole multimodality thing, it's sort of a buzzword.
14:56:34 <fizzie> And we have the sort-of-invented-here ICA, which is typically mentioned in the cocktail party context. (It's a blind source separation thing, not very directly related.)
14:58:09 <quintopia> oh man, this interactive film thing is such a great idea. imagine a movie that takes place entirely at a party, in one house, and there are cameras everywhere, and you can interpolate between them using standard vision techniques so as to watch from any angle...and you can track any sound source.
14:58:25 <quintopia> and EVERY partygoer is involved in some interesting story that unfolds over an hour
14:58:56 <quintopia> man, you could spend days watching that
14:59:11 <fizzie> You could spend quite a long making that, too. :p
14:59:50 <quintopia> well, yes
14:59:58 <quintopia> but no longer than it takes to make any movie
15:00:19 <quintopia> since you'd just have to actually rig a house with camoflauged cameras and sound-zoom things
15:00:28 <quintopia> and then have the actors rehearse for ages
15:00:41 <quintopia> and finally, film the entire thing in one continuous shot
15:00:48 <quintopia> like a stageplay
15:01:02 <fizzie> Oh, the robotics folks were also doing gait recognition. Someone had the audacity to ask them about whether it is, you know, actually useful for something.
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15:01:38 <quintopia> is there a punchline?
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15:02:20 <quintopia> i'd say it would be useful in strong AI for threat recognition
15:04:26 <fizzie> Well, he sort of avoided the question; there was something about how it works from a longer distance than face recognition.
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15:07:23 <fizzie> They have (a bit silly) demo-video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjyN7qjkKjU but I'm not promising anything mind-blowing there.
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15:15:26 <elliott> [[“vim doesn’t support interactive buffers? after 20 years? well, I’m a hacker. I’ll just add support for it.”
15:15:26 <elliott> sees quality of vim codebase, runs frantically in opposite direction
15:15:27 <elliott> “who needs a console in their editor anyways!!!! I am all about the unix philosophy, etc”]]
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15:19:47 <fizzie> Heh. I sort-of wanted a nice VIM/Matlab integration, didn't work out all that well.
15:20:07 <elliott> Dammit computer, I'm only using 1.4 GiB out of 3.7 GiB of RAM I have.
15:20:15 <elliott> So stop lagging, even if both my cores are being used intensively.
15:20:18 <elliott> By... uh... Firefox, I guess.
15:20:59 <elliott> fizzie: It's from “vim doesn’t support interactive buffers? after 20 years? well, I’m a hacker. I’ll just add support for it.”
15:21:00 <elliott> sees quality of vim codebase, runs frantically in opposite direction
15:21:00 <elliott> “who needs a console in their editor anyways!!!! I am all about the unix philosophy, etc”.
15:21:00 <elliott> erm.
15:21:08 <elliott> fizzie: It's from “vim doesn’t support interactive buffers? after 20 years? well, I’m a hacker. I’ll just add support for it.”
15:21:08 <elliott> sees quality of vim codebase, runs frantically in opposite direction
15:21:08 <elliott> “who needs a console in their editor anyways!!!! I am all about the unix philosophy, etc”
15:21:10 <elliott> GOD DAMMIT FIREFOX
15:21:20 <fizzie> THOU SHALT NOT COPY.
15:21:23 <elliott> fizzie: It's from http://kevinw.github.com/2010/12/15/this-is-your-brain-on-vim/.
15:21:27 <elliott> Used the menus to cut/paste that, how shameful.
15:21:47 <elliott> fizzie: I was really expecting it to end with "and then I switch to Emacs", what with the flurry of non-modal modifier key+foo binding.
15:22:00 <elliott> And the Y-combinator-browsin'-in-vim, and the vimscript hatred.
15:22:04 <elliott> But no; he's a wimp!
15:22:13 <elliott> (Because Vim users are wimps, obviously.)
15:22:27 <fizzie> A vimp.
15:23:15 <fizzie> "tries impressing someone watching over shoulder with a macro, only to mess up and uppercase/rot13 the entire file"
15:26:58 <elliott> Yes, I personally have rot13 bound to C-x x.
15:27:02 <elliott> It's just that useful.
15:27:56 <fizzie> I'm ashamed to admit I usually just paste into a tr a-z n-za-m.
15:31:31 <elliott> fizzie: I'm not ashamed to admit that I basically never use rot13 :P
15:32:25 <fizzie> Whenever I see gibberish, I rot13 it just in case.
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15:43:19 <Sgeo> I think I was suffering from IRC deprivation
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15:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. I assumed that topic was elliott being silly as always, but then I saw that zzo set it and I now fear that Cthulhu has awoken.
15:51:32 <elliott> MWAHAHA
15:53:23 <Sgeo> I'm caffenatired
15:54:40 <Sgeo> Also, I'm terrified of lonliness. Protip: Do not play One Chance. Do not watch walkthroughs of it. Especially if you're me
15:54:57 <nooga> vim
15:56:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, assuming you found out about that from qntm?
15:56:22 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes
15:56:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a shoddy copy of "Every Day the Same Dream", FWIW.
15:56:57 <Sgeo> If the plot's similar, remind me to never play that either
15:57:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Naw, the plot is different (and not crap).
15:57:23 <Phantom_Hoover> But the gameplay and several scenes are identical.
15:57:45 <Sgeo> As long as the final scenes aren't identical
15:57:49 <nooga> i've shown vim to my windows based friends and they said "what, this is retro man, like uh, does it have any keyboard shortcuts?"
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15:57:50 * Sgeo shudders
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15:58:49 <nooga> well, they can't code in visual studio 2008 so they download huuuuuuge visual studio 2010
15:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, One Chance's plot is... terrible. Particularly, as pointed out by Hughes, it seems to say "forget saving the world FAMILY FAMILY!!!1111!!"
15:59:37 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, badness of plot doesn't stop me from having nightmares
16:02:31 <Sgeo> I just saw the "good" ending
16:02:35 <Sgeo> It still haunts me
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16:05:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, have you still not read Fine Structure?
16:05:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not the end yet!
16:05:33 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, he's read some of it
16:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you are lagging behind Sgeo!
16:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> For shame!
16:06:17 <elliott> has Sgeo played eversion
16:06:20 <elliott> if not, I recommend Sgeo plays eversion
16:06:24 <elliott> it's a fun 8-bit game about happy things!
16:06:43 <Sgeo> I could swear I've seen that name before in connection with another game
16:07:41 <elliott> Sgeo: It's like this: http://zarawesome.googlepages.com/screenie.png
16:09:36 <Sgeo> Could be like Erfworld -- looks cute, full of death
16:10:50 <elliott> Sgeo: Did you think that when playing Super Mario Brothers? :P
16:11:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, think of the GOOMBA HOLOCAUST.
16:11:07 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SugarWiki/Eversion?from=Main.EVERSION this seriously reads like a trick
16:11:15 <elliott> Sgeo: http://zara.verge-rpg.com/eversion173.zip
16:11:18 <elliott> You're so damn sceptical.
16:12:02 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/Eversion uhhh
16:12:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's a lie! A troper lie!
16:14:24 <Phantom_Hoover> LIES
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16:16:13 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/Eversion
16:16:15 <Sgeo> oops
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16:22:20 <elliott> hi ais523!
16:22:27 <elliott> ais523: I implemented the basic patch logic of Scapegoat in Haskell.
16:22:29 <elliott> *scapegoat
16:22:33 <elliott> Vorpal: http://imgur.com/ymmLk.png
16:22:41 <ais523> hi
16:22:46 <ais523> sorry, trying to do something at work here
16:22:56 <elliott> ais523: ok, i'll shut up then :)
16:22:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm on far + fancy, no way I'll open browser atm
16:23:00 <ais523> I'm actually at a friend's house (for the Internet connection), but luckily ssh -X works
16:23:03 <elliott> Vorpal: wget|feh
16:23:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, feh?
16:23:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, did you tell some newspaper or other that you know 6 esolangs?
16:23:27 -!- jix has quit (Read error: No route to host).
16:23:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, 6 is pathetic, especially as you've *invented* at least 3.
16:23:43 <ais523> 6? that seems unlikely
16:23:53 <elliott> Vorpal: feh is an image viewer
16:23:59 <ais523> I seem to remember making a comment along the lines of "around 20, 30 if you count esolangs" when asked how many languages I knew
16:24:02 <ais523> but it was an estimate
16:24:30 <ais523> Waiting for TreeFrame to appear... 600 seconds left.
16:24:32 <ais523> Waiting for TreeFrame to appear... 599 seconds left.
16:24:33 <ais523> TreeFrame has appeared!
16:24:37 <ais523> this application does not fill me with confidence
16:25:02 <elliott> :D
16:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I love estimated completion times.
16:26:43 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd think the people who write them have no concept of precision.
16:27:22 <ais523> hmm, turns out it crashes immediately after you make any change
16:27:30 <ais523> so I'm having to restart it every time I change anything
16:27:34 <fizzie> TreeFrame has appeared! sounds like something from a MMORPG.
16:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Pokemon, surely?
16:28:46 <fizzie> TreeFrame has evolved to TreeFrameFactory!
16:29:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I suspect it's a timeout, not an estimated completion time
16:31:13 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, hmm.
16:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> There's an esolang in this!
16:36:49 <Sgeo> Wait, cgi scripts can't give arbitrary status codes?
16:36:52 <Sgeo> HTTP status codes?
16:37:21 -!- SaFi2266 has joined.
16:38:38 <SaFi2266> Hi all
16:38:38 <SaFi2266> Totally newbie here
16:39:22 <ais523> hi SaFi2266
16:39:42 <ais523> elliott: I fear I'm doing something insane; I just set up Evolution over ssh -X so I could send emails from work from home
16:39:58 <elliott> ais523: I...
16:40:03 <elliott> ais523: everyone who invented mail protocls hates you
16:40:08 <elliott> SaFi2266: hi, this channel is about esoteric programming languages
16:40:09 <SaFi2266> ohh hello
16:40:10 <elliott> *protocols
16:40:18 <ais523> elliott: why?
16:40:39 <elliott> ais523: because the whole point of IMAP etc. is to be able to use local programs to access any remote server :)
16:40:43 <SaFi2266> sorry
16:40:48 <elliott> SaFi2266: sorry?
16:41:08 <ais523> elliott: oh, indeed
16:41:14 <SaFi2266> but I am discovering the irc I am new
16:41:16 <ais523> I'm actually using IMAP on the remote server
16:41:24 <elliott> ais523: and yet you forward evolution over X why?! :)
16:41:32 <elliott> i suppose that computer might only have, like, outlook
16:41:34 <elliott> in which case okay
16:41:36 <ais523> so I can attach files that exist at the other end
16:41:40 <elliott> heh
16:41:42 <Deewiant> elliott: It might be a server only visible in the LAN
16:41:48 <ais523> actually, I think Thunderbird was set up already, but I just typed Evolution out of habit
16:41:59 <fizzie> There's sshfs for that sort of thing.
16:44:15 <fizzie> And CGI scripts can product many status codes, if not all; you just output a Status: header in front.
16:44:26 <Sgeo> In Perl, failing to put quotes around a string you're trying to print should not print the string
16:44:28 * Sgeo glares
16:44:45 <Sgeo> What happened was it printed out a garbled thing
16:45:03 <fizzie> Use something sensible like "use strict; use warnings;".
16:45:23 <fizzie> The strictness will disable "bareword" strings in many places.
16:46:38 <fizzie> At least I think it will.
16:47:02 <ais523> elliott: anyway, I agree that forwarding a mail client over X pretty much makes no sense
16:47:33 <Sgeo> Laziness!
16:47:41 <ais523> but at least I have two now, Thunderbird doesn't work if you're logged in twice from different workstations
16:47:43 <Deewiant> If the server isn't SSL-enabled it can.
16:47:52 <elliott> ais523: Oh, I can't resist; here's an example of the code:
16:47:54 <elliott> c1 = Insert Start End "Hello, world!"
16:47:54 <elliott> c2 = Insert c1 End "Goodbye, cruel world!"
16:47:54 <elliott> c3 = Replace c1 "Ow, my ear."
16:48:01 <elliott> *Main Data.Maybe> map snd . fromJust $ applyLis [c1,c3] empty
16:48:01 <elliott> ["","Ow, my ear.",""]
16:48:07 <elliott> (where the first and last strings are Start and End)
16:48:15 <elliott> (and map snd discards blame information)
16:48:23 <elliott> *Main Data.Maybe> map snd . fromJust $ applyLis [c1,c2,c3] empty
16:48:23 <elliott> ["","Ow, my ear.","Goodbye, cruel world!",""]
16:48:24 <elliott> but:
16:48:38 <elliott> *Main Data.Maybe> applyLis [c1,c3,c2] empty
16:48:38 <elliott> Nothing
16:48:46 <elliott> the end
16:48:47 <ais523> elliott: I've done most of the urgent and fast tasks now
16:48:57 <ais523> hmm, how does it handle a merge conflict?
16:49:05 <elliott> ais523: you mean a failing patch?
16:49:07 <elliott> it just returns Nothing :)
16:49:10 <elliott> applyLis evaluates in order
16:49:18 <elliott> it's just a convenience function
16:49:31 <elliott> it doesn't validate that the patches make sense unorderedly
16:50:15 <ais523> ah, OK
16:54:22 <nooga> i want a language with no syntax
16:54:30 <Vorpal> elliott, down?
16:54:34 <elliott> Vorpal: do
16:54:35 <elliott> yes
16:54:38 <ais523> nooga: any of the zerodimensional ones?
16:54:40 <elliott> nooga: forth
16:54:56 <elliott> ais523: anyway, the apply function is surprisingly neat!
16:55:40 <elliott> ais523: http://sprunge.us/gZDO the guards are basically a half-assed excuse for not writing a proper validation function, and the do notation is unnecessary, but it's surprisingly simple
16:55:48 <elliott> Line is just (Change,String); i.e. (blame,text)
16:58:21 <elliott> ais523: basically, I think this can work
17:02:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:03:00 <nooga> elliott: yeah, i thought about forth
17:03:21 <elliott> nooga: But you concluded that it has syntax?
17:04:04 <nooga> it's RPN
17:04:08 <elliott> nooga: Wrong.
17:04:22 <elliott> nooga: It just so happens that by default, the mathematical words defined happen to act in a manner similar to RPN calculators.
17:04:29 <elliott> Forth itself has no syntax.
17:04:51 <nooga> but then, with such language i would enable programmers to define syntaxes just like we define functions
17:04:54 <nooga> and then
17:04:59 <elliott> nooga: Indeed, that is possible in Forth.
17:05:04 <elliott> Words can read from the input stream directly.
17:05:07 <elliott> This is a very common technique.
17:05:12 <nooga> shit
17:05:15 <elliott> You can implement C as a Forth word, even, like this:
17:05:23 <elliott> run-c int main(void) { return 0; } SPECIAL-END-C-MARKER
17:06:18 <nooga> but if i'd like to use forh words between run-c and SPECIAL-END-C-MARKER...
17:06:28 <elliott> nooga: Sure, you can implement that as part of run-c.
17:07:09 <elliott> nooga: In fact, : -- the word definition word -- is implemented like run-c, except that it uses the existing "read a Forth word" procedure.
17:07:21 <elliott> It simply reads each word, and executes its immediate version.
17:07:26 <elliott> That is it.
17:07:30 <elliott> And then terminates on ;.
17:07:49 -!- jix has joined.
17:13:08 <Vorpal> elliott, you said you found dungeons. Found any records?
17:13:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I was blatantly lying.
17:13:27 <elliott> Sorry. :p
17:13:38 -!- augur has joined.
17:13:38 <Vorpal> elliott, so where did you get the TNT?
17:13:44 <Vorpal> or was that a lie too?
17:13:48 <elliott> Vorpal: I didn't. >_>
17:14:05 <Vorpal> elliott, so you never used any tnt?
17:14:09 <elliott> Nope.
17:14:15 <Vorpal> right
17:14:35 <elliott> The time I said I spent dungeoning was, in fact, spent doing nothing at all.
17:14:42 <Vorpal> hah
17:14:55 <Vorpal> elliott, so there goes my plan for public jukebox at subtree
17:17:30 <ais523> hmm, when did this become #minecraft?
17:19:10 <elliott> ais523: since we all bought minecraft
17:19:29 <elliott> ais523: in fairness, the alternatives would be silence, or /other/ off-topic stuff
17:20:13 <ais523> or scapegoat?
17:20:26 <ais523> I seem to remember this channel used to have ontopic discussions more often
17:20:29 <ais523> also, offtopic discussions more often
17:20:38 <elliott> ais523: yes, the minecraft playing has been ... excessiev
17:20:41 <elliott> *excessive
17:25:26 <elliott> ais523: I'd make a #scapegoat, except it'd never get any activity ever.
17:25:32 <elliott> Project-specific IRC channels rarely do.
17:25:47 <ais523> indeed
17:28:03 <ais523> elliott: well, #ubuntu tends to be pretty crowded
17:28:06 <ais523> especially around releases
17:28:14 <elliott> ais523: Ubuntu is a pretty big project :P
17:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, what was your response to my (awesome) naming scheme for Mitosis?
17:30:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, I believe I ignored it.
17:30:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, :(
17:40:17 <Vorpal> elliott, down?
17:40:33 <elliott> BJAODowN
17:40:45 <Vorpal> elliott, ?
17:40:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Please don't list this on a work's page as a trope.
17:40:49 <elliott> Examples can go here, on one of this page's subpages, or the work's YMMV tab."
17:40:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: TV Tropes: Now with YMMV tabs.
17:53:23 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, what is your opinion on the matter?
17:53:23 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: or something weird like a preprocessor. it creates external files with the code. perhaps in gcc-specific projects, though...
17:56:36 * pikhq finds it *incredibly* strange that international telephone calls have additional rates.
17:57:03 <pikhq> It's not like sending packets over the Atlantic costs much more than sending packets to the other side of the country.
17:57:20 <ais523> pikhq: what people are charged for something depends not on what it actually costs, but on what people are willing to pay for it
17:57:42 <pikhq> ais523: Aaaand people are morons.
17:57:42 <pikhq> Fuck.
17:58:48 * pikhq would like to replace large parts of humanity with rational actors.
17:58:56 <pikhq> It would make *so much* of economics work better!
18:01:42 <coppro> haha
18:01:52 <coppro> pikhq: you forgot well-informed
18:01:55 <quintopia> pikhq: how would you ensure that that rationality was common knowledge?
18:02:11 <pikhq> coppro: Ah, right. That too is important.
18:02:22 <pikhq> quintopia: Rationality isn't knowledge, it's a property!
18:02:53 <quintopia> pikhq: nothing will change if your world is full of rational actors that still think everyone else is irrational and uninformed
18:02:57 <coppro> pikhq: also a functioning justice system
18:03:03 <quintopia> you need to make those facts common knowledge to change anything
18:03:43 <pikhq> quintopia: Rational, well-informed actor, then.
18:03:45 <quintopia> which means proving to all these people that you have the power to make that change....
18:04:05 <pikhq> coppro: A set of rational, well-informed actors would probably be inclined to create such a system.
18:04:06 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
18:04:12 <pikhq> coppro: But, yeah, we could really do with that.
18:04:37 <coppro> pikhq: The problem is the other set of rational, well-informed actors with money
18:04:43 <coppro> who don't want a functioning justice system
18:04:47 <coppro> because they can have more money that way
18:04:48 <pikhq> Those, we lynch.
18:05:01 <coppro> pikhq: once per day, majority vote?
18:06:57 <quintopia> oh
18:07:13 * quintopia votes elliott as mob
18:07:26 <quintopia> he's a sneaky bastard. he has to be mafia.
18:09:19 <elliott> <coppro> pikhq: The problem is the other set of rational, well-informed actors with money
18:09:19 <elliott> <coppro> who don't want a functioning justice system
18:09:24 <elliott> coppro: not rational, well-informed, utilitarian actors with money
18:09:30 <elliott> rational, well-informed, selfish actors, sure
18:11:58 <Vorpal> elliott, down?
18:12:18 <Deewiant> Vorpal: No
18:12:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yes from here
18:12:42 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:12:48 <Deewiant> Yes, you and elliott left
18:12:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, so maybe it only works from .fi now
18:13:28 <Deewiant> Or Welho
18:13:33 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hm
18:13:33 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:14:13 <Vorpal> Deewiant, "no route"
18:14:34 <Vorpal> well bbl, will make food
18:15:35 -!- fizzie has joined.
18:21:26 <pikhq> https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/jeoacafpbcihiomhlakheieifhpjdfeo Glee.
18:26:04 <Sgeo_> I'm tempted to watch a Let's Play
18:26:14 <Sgeo_> But that's what screwed me over on Monday...
18:32:25 -!- SaFi2266 has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat).
18:32:55 <Sgeo_> Ugh, need to conserve battery badly
18:49:17 <elliott> pikhq: Nice.
18:49:30 <elliott> pikhq: But does it have a Firefox version? :p
18:53:30 * Sgeo_ wonders if LAWS_OF_REDDIT is still alive
18:55:31 * Sgeo_ falls asleep on the chair
18:55:36 <Sgeo_> The chair... of DOOM
18:55:44 <Sgeo_> But seriously, just a chainr
19:00:16 <Vorpal> elliott, down?
19:00:21 -!- Ilari has joined.
19:00:25 <elliott> Nwod.
19:00:33 <Vorpal> elliott, nwod?
19:00:39 <elliott> Indeed.
19:00:50 <Deewiant> Vorpal: strrev("dowN") as well as a bit like "nod"
19:01:29 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:01:47 -!- pingveno has joined.
19:04:22 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:14:13 <Sgeo_> I surrender
19:14:21 <Sgeo_> I'm going to watch a blind LP of Eversion
19:14:29 <Sgeo_> Which is the best such LP?
19:15:04 <elliott> Sgeo_: QuantumCrayons
19:15:16 <elliott> at least, it's the one I watched
19:15:31 <elliott> and it's hilarious
19:15:40 <elliott> Sgeo_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBKvtQtKf0s
19:15:44 <Sgeo_> ty
19:15:49 <elliott> ignore the suggestions sidebar
19:15:49 <elliott> :P
19:15:52 * Sgeo_ wishes he had headphones with him :/
19:16:52 <Sgeo_> How blind was QC? To the level of not knowing how dark it would get?
19:17:30 -!- cheater99 has joined.
19:17:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:18:16 <Sgeo_> Why was there a banner saying something in Russian, why did I click it, and how do I get YouTube to not be in Russian?
19:18:46 <Sgeo_> Going to go to comp. lab to get work done
19:18:47 <Sgeo_> BBL
19:18:49 <elliott> Sgeo_: He had no idea.
19:19:47 <Sgeo_> elliott, :D
19:19:49 <Sgeo_> Sounds fun
19:20:44 <elliott> Sgeo_: It's very long -- some 14 parts or something -- because after he did the first ending he repeatedly failed at getting the good ending.
19:24:16 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:25:30 <pikhq> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5141 It's a CNCable transistor.
19:37:17 <Gregor> "JavaScript is usually used to add dynamic behavior to sites, to improve the user experience orthogonally to the actual presentation of information. Pornography sites, contrarily, rarely need such additions, as a user presented with the data will improve the user experience themselves."
19:41:56 <coppro> +1
20:03:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:07:30 <coppro> pikhq: oh god
20:07:40 <oerjan> <elliott> tswett: Do you have the power to summon oerjan?
20:07:43 <oerjan> obviously not :D
20:07:44 <coppro> why do your courts suck so much
20:07:45 <coppro> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/12/15/1922205/First-Sale-Doctrine-Lost-Overseas?from=rss
20:08:49 <elliott> oerjan: i want you to work out some complex-sounding yet ultimately meaningless mathematics based on scapegoat patches
20:09:03 <oerjan> is that topic sort of like the _opposite_ of saying the lord's prayer backwards?
20:09:05 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:09:59 <oerjan> elliott: ah. i guess in that case you may have triggered my intrinsic magical defenses against work. no wonder tswett's summoning didn't work.
20:10:15 <elliott> oerjan: i've even stated it in haskell for you!
20:10:36 <oerjan> argh
20:14:01 <elliott> oerjan: the language you helped father.
20:14:05 <elliott> by greatly aiding in its development.
20:14:11 <elliott> in fact i'd say you probably invented half of haskell.
20:16:59 <elliott> dark: 3d3d3d
20:17:04 <elliott> light:9b9b9b
20:18:05 * oerjan notes those don't sum to ffffff
20:18:29 <zzo38> Do you think some kind of semi-dynamic analysis could be made that can work with TAVSYS to make it check things such as proving the game is always in a winnable state, or that things must be done in a certain sequence in the game, and so on?
20:18:53 <elliott> oerjan: indeed
20:19:23 <tswett> oerjan: "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate" is not the Lord's Prayer.
20:19:38 <tswett> Er.
20:19:42 <oerjan> and since the sum < FFFFFF, not in the correct direction either
20:19:51 <tswett> Right, it's sort of the opposite of the Lord's Prayer. So yes, precisely.
20:20:09 <tswett> oerjan greatly aided in the development of Haskell?
20:20:20 <elliott> yes, he's in the haskell 98 report
20:20:21 <elliott> :D
20:20:31 <oerjan> tswett: apart from the ridiculous hyperbole, there _might_ be a trace of truth there
20:20:41 <tswett> The man himself is in the Report?
20:20:56 <Ilari> Ugh... doing Fsck on these disks takes a long time...
20:21:01 <oerjan> yeah they extracted some of my organs and embedded them
20:21:10 <oerjan> in a typesafe way
20:21:34 <elliott> <oerjan> tswett: apart from the ridiculous hyperbole, there _might_ be a trace of truth there
20:21:36 <elliott> SO EGOTISTICAL
20:21:56 <Ilari> (just a scheduled one, not unclean shutdown)
20:25:16 <oerjan> it would appear that clog has murdered all the other bots here
20:26:20 <oerjan> or maybe clog just should be very very afraid
20:29:16 <Vorpal> Deewiant, mc crashed
20:29:20 <Vorpal> Deewiant, null pointer
20:29:25 <Deewiant> hah
20:31:33 <pikhq> coppro: ... FIRST SALE DOCTRINE.
20:31:45 <coppro> pikhq: YES
20:31:47 <pikhq> coppro: You are MOTHER-FUCKING KIDDING ME.
20:32:20 <pikhq> THAT IS BULLSHIT.
20:32:24 <pikhq> FUCKING BULLSHIT.
20:35:29 <pikhq> Fuck the US. I'm moving to the Moon.
20:37:33 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:38:05 <oerjan> yeah move to the secret nazi base there
20:38:06 <ais523> pikhq: I think the decision that the right not to be searched without a warrant doesn't apply within 100 miles of a border or any international airport is even more ridiculous
20:38:16 <ais523> I mean, what place in the US isn't?
20:38:28 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:38:51 <pikhq> ais523: Very very ridiculous.
20:39:02 <pikhq> ais523: ... *100 miles of an international airport too*?
20:39:05 <pikhq> Okay, then.
20:39:09 <pikhq> That leaves us... Uh.
20:39:12 <coppro> ais523: wait, what
20:39:16 <pikhq> Parts of Alaska.
20:39:51 <zzo38> I do not like the submission rules of arXiv and viXra. I should propose the following:
20:40:13 <zzo38> * You must submit a DVI file containing no specials, and using only fonts in the font repository. You may submit fonts to the font repository.
20:40:30 <zzo38> * In addition to the DVI file, your submission must contain exactly one attachment, no more, no less.
20:41:22 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, it has been ruled that the 4th amendment's "search and seizure" clause does not apply within 100 miles of a border.
20:41:35 <pikhq> Actually, that it doesn't apply "at the border".
20:41:50 <pikhq> Where "the border" is a 100 mile strip from a land border or sea cost.
20:42:01 <zzo38> * The attachment must be in one of the following formats (optionally compressed by gzip): .tex .w .web .zip
20:42:11 <coppro> pikhq: wait what
20:42:12 <coppro> link
20:42:13 <pikhq> This is actually used. Border patrol actually has inland checkpoints.
20:42:14 <zzo38> * It must be valid free cultural works.
20:42:22 <pikhq> http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-liberty/are-you-living-constitution-free-zone
20:42:28 <pikhq> http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone
20:42:28 <zzo38> * Pornography is not permitted.
20:43:14 <pikhq> Some 2/3rds of the US population lives within the "border".
20:43:33 <zzo38> * You must include a form with your submission including title, authors (which are allowed to be anonymous if wanted, but you are not allowed to lie about who the author is), short description, and tags/categories.
20:43:46 <zzo38> * Submission is done using HTTP or FTP.
20:43:59 <coppro> pikhq: goddamit your country
20:43:59 <zzo38> Do you think these submission rules are better?
20:44:13 <pikhq> coppro: It is very literally a police state.
20:44:53 <pikhq> coppro: We also set up "free speech zones" for protests. You can be arrested for protesting outside of them.
20:44:54 <zzo38> Oops, one more attachment format: .tar
20:45:22 <ais523> zzo38: any restrictions on what can be inside the tarball or zip archive?
20:46:13 <ais523> pikhq: my interpretation of free speech is that you can say what you like, but other people aren't obliged to give you communication channels
20:46:17 <zzo38> ais523: No, although someone can report it if it is considered to contain improper things.
20:46:36 <pikhq> ais523: The government, however, is obligated not to stop you.
20:46:43 <ais523> pikhq: indeed
20:46:46 <pikhq> ais523: And they do.
20:47:05 <ais523> hmm, are any of the amendments more or less intact?
20:47:29 <zzo38> ais523,pikhq: I agree with your interpretation of free speech. Nobody is obliged to give you communication channels but the government is obligated to not stop you from free speech. It makes sense.
20:47:31 <pikhq> Ironically, the 2nd amendment is probably the least abused.
20:47:59 <ais523> which one's that?
20:48:05 <ais523> not being american, I don't have them memorised by number?
20:48:07 <pikhq> Right to bear arms.
20:48:09 <ais523> ah, yes
20:48:20 <ais523> well, the spirit of the 2nd is completely gone
20:48:22 <pikhq> I presume you meant "of the amendments naming rights".
20:48:34 <ais523> the idea was that people should be able to form private militias to defend themselves against the government
20:48:40 <ais523> and that seems a little unlikely
20:48:52 <pikhq> People still can form private militias, and the crazies actually *do*.
20:48:53 <ais523> pikhq: hmm, although they mostly name either rights or restrictions
20:48:54 <Gregor> FLOODY TIME
20:48:55 <Gregor> ---: I keep thinking "Fujita, what does your enhanced scale say about the tornado's power level? IT'S APPROXIMATELY TWOOOOOOOOOO!"
20:48:55 <Gregor> CDGregorR: It's not Fujita's enhanced scale, it's Fujita's scale, enhanced.
20:48:55 <Gregor> ---: Fujita, what does your scale, enhanced, say about the tornado's power level? IT'S APPROXIMATELY TWOOOOOOOOOO! ... enhanced
20:48:56 <ais523> or else repeal each other
20:49:00 <Gregor> CDGregorR: FUJITA IS DEAD
20:49:03 <Gregor> ---: Zombie Fujita, what does your scale, enhanced, say about the tornado's power level? Nnnnnnngngggggggggnngh! ... enhanced
20:49:04 <pikhq> ais523: Or change procedural details.
20:49:05 <ais523> pikhq: yep, but a private militia isn't going to do a lot against the US army
20:49:11 <oerjan> not being american, it may be disturbing that i _do_ know 1, 2 and 5 by number. no guarantees of having their _content_ correctly...
20:49:18 <pikhq> *cough*Iraq*cough*
20:49:33 <pikhq> oerjan: Eh, those are the ones that Americans actually know.
20:49:36 <ais523> pikhq: well, it could work defensively, I suppose
20:49:39 <zzo38> I also do not live in United States.
20:49:47 <ais523> but that would lead to a lot of bloodshed yet not get anywhere
20:49:57 <oerjan> zzo38: *GASP* um canadian then?
20:50:12 <pikhq> oerjan: They may actually be aware of the details of others, but not actually know them by number.
20:50:18 <ais523> hmm, -0800 timezone
20:50:20 <zzo38> oerjan: I live in Canada. You might be able to figure out from my IP address my service provider too
20:50:26 <oerjan> i certainly had the impression you were north american
20:50:31 <ais523> that's pretty west for most parts of North America
20:50:33 <pikhq> (for instance, most Americans are probably aware that Prohibition was created and repealed via amendments)
20:50:35 <zzo38> And from the timezone you can figure out the province.
20:51:05 <ais523> I haven't been west of Ottawa
20:51:33 <pikhq> You'll probably find most everyone unaware of the 9th and 10th amendments.
20:52:15 <pikhq> (9th states the enumeration of rights is not comprehensive, 10th states that any powers not given to the federal government are for the states or the people.)
20:52:44 <ais523> wow, 10's abused a lot
20:52:52 <ais523> and what does 9 do, if anything/
20:52:55 <ais523> it's like Agora's R101
20:53:45 <pikhq> ais523: Nominally, it means that the government does not grant rights at all, but that there are rights completely independent of it, and that the government should not infringe them.
20:54:05 <pikhq> ais523: In practice, it means that people like to use the Bill of Rights as toilet paper.
20:54:17 * oerjan also may have a vague idea of 13 and 14, if he recalls the numbers right
20:54:36 <coppro> pikhq: Where in the constitution does it say separation of church and state? :P
20:54:42 <pikhq> coppro: 1st.
20:55:10 <coppro> pikhq: I'm kidding
20:55:18 <pikhq> I'm not!
20:55:22 <coppro> I was referencing the fact that someone actually asked that at a political debate
20:55:26 <coppro> a /candidate/
20:55:28 <zzo38> Does it need to say separation of church and state? I agree with separation of church and state, but does the law need to say it explicitly?
20:55:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Look at US political debate.
20:55:48 <pikhq> zzo38: It needs to be the most explicit thing.
20:55:50 <coppro> zzo38: Yes.
20:55:51 <coppro> Yes it does.
20:56:02 <coppro> and apparently the establishment clause is not sufficiently clear
20:56:03 <ais523> zzo38: there are enough idiots in politics that even if you do say something explicitly, some people won't get it
20:56:45 <pikhq> Also fun is people who shout "treason" like crazy in the US.
20:56:54 <pikhq> Treason is actually defined *in the Constitution*!
20:56:57 <coppro> pikhq: that one's happened here
20:57:07 <oerjan> zzo38: i vaguely recall reading that before the amendment that extended the bill of rights to apply to states and not just congress, there were states in the US that had an official religion
20:57:11 <zzo38> Perhaps I don't know because I don't live in United States. If I did live there, probably I would know. But I don't want to live in United States. If I have too much money I can make up a country instead.
20:57:13 <pikhq> People are accusing Assange of treason!
20:57:29 <coppro> pikhq: does treason including sharing state secrets?
20:57:33 <ais523> pikhq: I know, and he isn't actually American
20:57:34 <pikhq> coppro: No.
20:57:44 <coppro> pikhq: ok then
20:57:50 <coppro> (ours does, but only to wartime enemies)
20:58:01 <coppro> (but public revelation could arguably count if we have a wartime enemy)
20:58:55 <pikhq> coppro: Treason in the US is levying war against the US.
20:59:06 <pikhq> Or giving aid to the US's enemies in war.
21:00:32 <pikhq> The section of the US code defining treason and its punishment also states that you must owe allegiance to the US in the first place.
21:00:44 <pikhq> Making it literally impossible for a non-US citizen to commit treason in the US.
21:01:08 <ais523> people are furious enough in the UK at Sweden apparently trying to abuse our legal processes
21:01:11 <ais523> wrt Assange
21:01:59 <pikhq> It amazes me the effort that Sweden is going to to get Assange.
21:02:13 <pikhq> The punishment for what he's accused of is a ~$700 fine.
21:02:36 <pikhq> Seriously. They are expending all their effort on a slap on the wrist.
21:03:28 <oerjan> pikhq: in which case it somewhat amazes that assange doesn't simply agree to the extradition - the UK is no less likely than Sweden to give him further trouble, is it?
21:03:52 <oerjan> (it the US should ask for an extradition, say)
21:03:53 <ais523> oerjan: I think he's objecting on principle
21:04:02 <oerjan> *amazes me
21:04:18 <elliott> <zzo38> I do not like the submission rules of arXiv and viXra. I should propose the following:
21:04:19 <pikhq> oerjan: He did turn himself in as soon as an arrest warrant was out for him in the UK.
21:04:19 <elliott> oh jesus christ
21:04:27 <ais523> also, why would you extradite someone over a $700 fine?
21:04:29 <pikhq> oerjan: And now he is simply going through the full court process.
21:04:31 <elliott> <zzo38> * Pornography is not permitted.
21:04:34 <elliott> but what about Gregor's papers
21:04:37 <pikhq> ais523: Even worse.
21:04:38 <elliott> and all the pornography-detection result
21:04:41 <elliott> (which is actually real)
21:04:51 <pikhq> ais523: He's not even wanted for the punishment of the $700 fine.
21:04:52 <oerjan> pikhq: hm i guess he might simply just want to have things as much in the media as possible
21:04:57 <ais523> pikhq: as far as I can tell, everyone's complying with due process so far, both the UK and Assange
21:04:59 <pikhq> ais523: He's wanted as a witness *regarding* the case.
21:05:10 <ais523> pikhq: so who's the accused, then?
21:05:13 <pikhq> ais523: He is.
21:05:28 <zzo38> elliott: Descrobe about Gregor's papers.
21:05:30 <ais523> hmm, I think I'm missing something here
21:05:58 <pikhq> ais523: The prosecution is being all sorts of crazy.
21:06:25 <ais523> this feels more like an SCO scale of crazy
21:06:32 <elliott> zzo38: Gregor's papers have involved analysis of pornographic websites.
21:06:44 <pikhq> He got charged. The charges were dropped. The charges were picked up again. He stayed around for a couple *months* waiting for them to ask for a deposition. He then left to the UK. *Then* they wanted him in court.
21:06:45 <zzo38> You are allowed to describe things relating to pornography if it has possible scientific merit, your paper is just not allowed to include any pornography itself.
21:06:50 <elliott> zzo38: also, there is plenty of legitimate research which includes (censored) pornography; mostly work on content detection, to help block pornographic materials.
21:07:00 <pikhq> zzo38: But Lenna!
21:07:01 <elliott> these images are required to demonstrate the strengths and drawbacks of the methods
21:07:38 <zzo38> elliott: If it is sufficiently censored that only the part necessary for scientific research is included, you may include it.
21:07:50 <elliott> zzo38: ok, and why does it matter if it's not censored? hypothetically
21:08:07 <zzo38> The only thing that is prohibited is explicit pornography that is not related to the scientific issue at hand.
21:08:12 <elliott> i mean, if you're going to start censoring pornography, might as well add a "and no instruction on how to make bombs either!" clause
21:08:15 <elliott> it seems strange to single pornography out
21:08:26 <pikhq> ais523: Oh, and crazier. He has actually told the prosecution he would be entirely willing to give a deposition outside of Sweden.
21:08:40 <zzo38> Instructions to make bombs are permitted. Pornography is also permitted as long as only relevant parts are included.
21:08:45 <oerjan> zzo38: do the current guidelines include anything about pornography? otherwise, _why the heck mention something almost completely irrelevant to the archive_?
21:08:51 <ais523> pikhq: I think someone's milking this for publicity, but am not entirely sure who
21:08:54 <ais523> perhaps, everyone involved at once
21:09:17 <zzo38> By disallowing pornography I didn't mean to prohibit legitimate scientific research. I mean to prohibit someone posting free pornography there so that people can just watch pornography all the time.
21:09:29 <ais523> elliott: btw, I need your help to defeat an Agoran scam
21:09:30 <zzo38> If you want to watch pornography, you can find it a lot elsewhere.
21:09:36 <ais523> without 8 objections
21:09:42 <ais523> so I need all the objections I can get, really
21:09:44 <elliott> oerjan: i think, and this is just a wild guess here, that zzo38 really dislikes pornography
21:09:51 <oerjan> elliott: you don't say
21:09:52 <elliott> ais523: no, I like scams, sorry
21:09:54 <zzo38> You could also link to it in your article if it is important.
21:10:02 <coppro> I can't imagine elliott ever defeating a scam
21:10:13 <elliott> coppro: maybe with another failed scam that just happens to stop the other one working, accidentally :D
21:10:17 <ais523> elliott: well, the scam itself is boring, it's just an escalator by changing the number of objections needed to block a ratification from 1 to 8
21:10:25 <ais523> whereas getting 8 people to agree on anything is a lot more fun
21:11:30 <pikhq> ais523: Oh, and meanwhile, people in the US Justice Department are trying to *find* things to charge Assange with.
21:11:48 <pikhq> ais523: And Senators are wanting to make an ex post facto law regarding this.
21:11:59 <zzo38> If your file contains such things as the permitted kinds of pornography, or profanity, or whatever else like that, you should tag it as such "pornography", "profanity", and so on.
21:12:11 <coppro> pikhq: I know, it's hilarious
21:12:17 <ais523> pikhq: why not just "being Julian Assange is illegal?"
21:12:18 <coppro> you people are just so bad at government
21:12:19 <zzo38> So that people who do not like to watch it can filter it out.
21:12:22 <ais523> that seems pretty foolproof
21:12:33 <ais523> doesn't even need to be retroactive
21:12:38 <pikhq> coppro: Not that the UK is any better.
21:12:50 <pikhq> coppro: They're wanting to ban protests in response to the recent student protests.
21:12:53 <pikhq> Yes, ban protests.
21:13:03 <coppro> pikhq: legislators are saying this?
21:13:03 <pikhq> Because *that's* going to help.
21:13:03 <ais523> you can give him a slap on the wrist the first time, then successively higher punishments for not ceasing the behaviour
21:13:09 <ais523> pikhq: I haven't heard anything of that, and I'm in the UK
21:13:22 <zzo38> pikhq: Is there some kind of constitution that disallows banning protests?
21:13:24 <ais523> there was even a discussion about whether to use water cannon or not, and they decided no
21:13:27 <pikhq> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/student-protests-may-be-banned-altogether-if-violence-continues-2160620.html
21:13:31 <ais523> zzo38: the UK doesn't have an explicit constitution
21:13:34 <coppro> zzo38: constitution? uk? hah
21:13:46 <pikhq> Thankfully not Parliament.
21:13:48 <ais523> pikhq: broken link
21:13:56 <elliott> <zzo38> If your file contains such things as the permitted kinds of pornography, or profanity, or whatever else like that, you should tag it as such "pornography", "profanity", and so on.
21:13:57 <elliott> zzo38: fuck that
21:13:58 <coppro> pikhq: oh, ok
21:14:03 <ais523> oh, no it isn't, I forgot the l at the end
21:14:16 <ais523> oh, it's just the London police force
21:14:22 <oerjan> ais523: what about the european human rights convention? i'm sure you're a member
21:14:33 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, yes they are.
21:14:38 <ais523> they're all embarrased at the moment because someone broke Prince Charles' car's window
21:14:42 <ais523> it wasn't even bulletproof or anything
21:15:03 <elliott> ais523: how do you know that wasn't intentional :D
21:15:06 <ais523> oerjan: we are
21:15:23 <oerjan> ais523: that sounds a little reckless.
21:15:28 <ais523> the way protesting in the UK goes, is you're supposed to tell the police in advance
21:15:28 <zzo38> elliott: Anything wrong with this kind of tagging?
21:15:43 <ais523> and they make sure that there isn't going to be a huge riot or anything
21:15:43 <pikhq> oerjan: In a comical way that doesn't directly give the courts to invalidate an Act of Parliament, but hey.
21:15:46 <oerjan> hm i wonder if the norwegian king has a bulletproof car. i know the prime minister does.
21:15:54 <pikhq> Erm, give the courts the power to
21:16:01 <ais523> and the police are really embarassed at the moment because everyone knew the protest was happening, and yet they screwed up
21:16:55 <ais523> it is a little strange that the heir to the throne can drive around in an ordinary car in the middle of a riot...
21:17:00 <ais523> I'd say what actually happened was a little inevitable
21:17:13 <ais523> it seems that the police considered shooting, but decided against it
21:17:38 <ais523> (the police in the UK generally aren't armed, there are a few armed officers but they're generally only deployed when there's reason to think they might be necessary, say in response to armed criminals)
21:17:54 <pikhq> ais523: That's much saner than the US.
21:18:02 <zzo38> Example: If the author owns a store for selling pornography, they may identify themself as the owner of such a store. You may not include the logo if it is pornographic (unless it is important to the article in some way), but you may link to it.
21:18:16 <ais523> pikhq: indeed
21:18:29 <pikhq> ais523: US police are all armed, and they have an actual *paramilitary unit* they use in response to armed criminals.
21:18:32 <ais523> it also means, if you see an armed policeman, you know something serious is going on
21:18:33 <zzo38> Does it makes sense now?
21:18:40 <oerjan> pikhq: ah. norway has made laws to give some conventions precedence over our ordinary laws, including that one.
21:18:46 <ais523> (the armed policemen generally carry really big and obvious guns so everyone knows they're armed, incidentally)
21:18:54 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Members_of_the_37th_Training_Wing's_Emergency_Services_Team_at_Lackland_AFB.jpg THESE ARE FUCKING POLICE.
21:19:39 <pikhq> Yes, those are assault rifles.
21:20:20 <coppro> all our police are armed
21:20:23 <coppro> thanks to you
21:20:42 <pikhq> Oh, and these guys are also used for riot control.
21:20:53 <pikhq> And searches.
21:22:04 <oerjan> norwegian police isn't usually armed either
21:22:11 <pikhq> Especially no-knock warrants, where your first indication of their wanting to do anything is *breaking down your door and threatening your life if you don't comply*.
21:22:38 <ais523> the UK police famously do that at dawn
21:22:53 <ais523> but they normally don't shoot at you, just arrest you if you don't comply
21:23:50 <zzo38> Maybe you should be permitted to eat yourself as defense against threats made against you by the police.
21:24:03 <pikhq> If you fire back at all you will be charged with assault.
21:24:17 <elliott> zzo38: not really, what if the person makes bombs?
21:24:21 <pikhq> Except in Texas, where their trespassing gives you full license to kill them.
21:24:37 <elliott> i mean, why do you have a rule against pornography -- which is almost irrelevant in this case -- and no rules against, say, bigotry?
21:26:37 <zzo38> elliott: Because anything should be allowed in these articles. Only, some people do not like to watch pornography, so you should not include it if it is not necessary. Anyways, the article must be a DVI file containing no specials. You may use profanity in your article, but you may not use profanity in the title unless the article is related to such things (for example, a article about brainfuck programming language may contain the word "brainf
21:26:52 <elliott> zzo38: some people do not like to read statements of racial hatred
21:26:55 <elliott> why isn't that banned too?
21:27:14 <zzo38> elliott: It is banned in submissions that do not have the tag "racial hatred" assigned to them.
21:27:27 <elliott> zzo38: okay. what about papers containing the word "weasel"
21:27:32 <elliott> some people do not like to read that word
21:27:34 <elliott> so surely it should be a tag?
21:28:44 <zzo38> elliott: No, it isn't a common enough thing to worry about, like racism and profanity and so on, are. But since some people disagree with restrictions against profanity, it is still allowed as long as it is tagged as such.
21:29:30 <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck
21:29:35 <zzo38> If you want to read article only about mathematics, you may tag search "+mathematics", but if you want only articles about mathematics that have no profanity, you can tag search "+mathematics&-profanity".
21:29:37 <elliott> after the n, here
21:29:48 <elliott> zzo38: okay, then why isn't pornography allowed, but just in articles tagged "pornography"?
21:29:49 <ais523> different server, probably
21:29:53 <zzo38> ais523: ...uck programming language may contain the word "brainfuck" in its title).
21:30:02 <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
21:30:05 <ais523> *censorship
21:30:52 <zzo38> elliott: I suppose it can be allowed in articles tagged "pornography". You are right about that.
21:32:00 <zzo38> My concern is that some people might want to go there only to view pornography. It doesn't seem likely, especially that you must submit a DVI without specials and that any picture file attachments must be in an archive file instead of directly, So maybe it doesn't matter.
21:32:55 <oerjan> fizzie: Gregor: no bots today
21:33:03 <zzo38> elliott: See?
21:33:31 <elliott> Okay.
21:34:01 <oerjan> zzo38: there is a general principle that you don't make up rules for things that aren't likely to be problems
21:35:20 <oerjan> s/don't/shouldn't/
21:35:23 <zzo38> oerjan: In that case, such a rule should not be required. Just the tagging rule can be used.
21:36:21 <zzo38> You can have many kind of search functions, for example if you want to find only an article that will fit on letter-sized paper.
21:37:24 <ais523> why would anyone search based on that?
21:37:34 <ais523> even if the article had the wrong paper size, it could be scaled
21:37:53 <Gregor> oerjan: It's international Bot Awareness Day
21:37:59 <oerjan> Gregor: ah
21:38:06 -!- HackEgo has joined.
21:38:07 -!- EgoBot has joined.
21:38:13 <oerjan> `echo hi
21:38:28 <HackEgo> hi
21:38:33 <oerjan> it's slow even when it just entered...
21:38:33 <zzo38> ais523: I suppose it could also be recompiled from source if you modify the source files for the document.
21:39:03 <zzo38> But it might still be something you want to search. You might also want to search by filesize, by number of pages, by attachments, by tags, etc.
21:39:08 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
21:39:11 <HackEgo> 250) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
21:39:13 <zzo38> Or by which fonts are used....
21:39:16 <Gregor> oerjan: It's slow ESPECIALLY when it's just entered.
21:40:07 <oerjan> Gregor: i had this idea that it was slow because it sometimes needed to dredge itself up from a cache, and that that wouldn't apply if it just had done something including entering
21:40:30 <elliott> oerjan: stop making me want to delete every quote :D
21:40:54 <oerjan> elliott: what's wrong about that one? :(
21:41:11 <elliott> oerjan: oh never mine :D
21:41:14 <elliott> mind.
21:42:09 <Gregor> oerjan: Pretty much.
21:42:30 <oerjan> except for the including entering part, apparently
21:43:16 <zzo38> I suppose other things you might want to have search criteria is: title, author, date, description, filename, fonts, etc. And possibly a few more in the case of literate programs.
21:43:59 <fizzie> oerjan: Today must be the national No Bots Day.
21:44:54 <elliott> oerjan: eh?
21:45:01 <elliott> i meant the omission of the p, thought it was intentional
21:45:20 <oerjan> elliott: er that last was a response to Gregor
21:46:04 <elliott> wat
21:46:06 <elliott> okay
21:46:06 <elliott> :P
21:46:10 <oerjan> elliott: well we may never know but i doubt it :)
21:47:24 -!- fungot has joined.
21:47:35 <elliott> `delquote 250
21:47:35 <elliott> :p
21:47:44 <HackEgo> *poof*
21:48:09 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:48:21 <oerjan> elliott: :(
21:48:59 <elliott> oerjan: oh fine add it back :P
21:49:24 <oerjan> `revert
21:49:26 <HackEgo> Done.
21:50:19 <oerjan> "•In Frankfurt, they call them wieners (after Wien, or Vienna). In Vienna, however, they call them frankfurters. The fact that neither city wants to claim credit for them might tell you something.
21:50:22 <elliott> oerjan: erm let's hope that worked :D
21:50:24 <elliott> `quote 250
21:50:26 <HackEgo> No output.
21:50:29 <elliott> `quote 249
21:50:32 <HackEgo> 249) <pikhq> oklofok: I don't watch House, no. <pikhq> oklofok: I prefer knowing how medicine actually works.
21:50:43 <oerjan> elliott: huh why not?
21:50:55 <oerjan> (from yesterday's iwc annotation, updated)
21:51:11 <nooga> "The Android operating system consists of 12 million lines of code including 3 million lines of XML, 2.8 million lines of C, 2.1 million lines of Java, and 1.75 million lines of C++.[19]"
21:51:15 <nooga> XML?!
21:51:38 <oerjan> afk
21:51:48 <nooga> maybe it's because it's so verbose
21:51:55 <elliott> `revert
21:51:57 <pikhq> Define "line".
21:51:57 <HackEgo> Done.
21:51:58 <elliott> `quote 250
21:52:01 <HackEgo> No output.
21:52:03 <elliott> `help
21:52:04 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:52:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:53:17 <elliott> oerjan: so is the p intentional or not :P
21:53:21 <elliott> if not i'll add it with the p
22:13:01 <elliott> "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste."
22:13:29 <elliott> `addquote "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste." --Kode Vicious
22:13:35 <HackEgo> 250) "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste." --Kode Vicious
22:14:48 <oerjan> elliott: the absense of the p is the whole _point_ of the quote, sheesh (and it was ais523's mistake, not mine)
22:14:57 <oerjan> *absence
22:15:01 <elliott> oerjan: right
22:15:05 <elliott> oerjan: re-add it then :P
22:15:20 <oerjan> yes but why didn't the revert work?
22:15:35 <oerjan> was there some privmsg reverted instead?
22:16:52 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
22:16:53 <HackEgo> 251) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
22:17:04 <elliott> oerjan: i think revert only works with a revision number nowadays
22:17:10 <oerjan> oh
22:17:18 <elliott> `revert 266
22:17:20 <HackEgo> Done.
22:17:21 <elliott> `quote 250
22:17:22 <HackEgo> 250) "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste." --Kode Vicious
22:17:25 <elliott> hm
22:17:26 <elliott> or not :D
22:17:27 <elliott> `quote 250
22:17:28 <HackEgo> 250) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
22:17:30 <elliott> there
22:17:34 <elliott> `addquote "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste." --Kode Vicious
22:17:34 <HackEgo> 251) "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste." --Kode Vicious
22:17:52 <oerjan> ...what >_<
22:18:06 <coppro> that line is brilliant
22:18:06 <oerjan> `cat bin/revert
22:18:07 <olsner> pretty sure he meant to finish that with "censorshit"
22:18:07 <HackEgo> No output.
22:18:19 <elliott> oerjan: no, it's okay
22:18:25 <elliott> oerjan: just sometimes, it takes a while to merge the repository
22:18:32 <oerjan> oh
22:18:34 <elliott> oerjan: basically, "`A" and then "`B" both execute in separate repositories
22:18:42 <elliott> oerjan: then, after they finish, an "hg commit" is done
22:18:48 <elliott> and then it tries to merge it into the main repository
22:18:53 <elliott> so sometimes you have to wait
22:19:02 <elliott> not separate repositories, just separate / checkouts
22:20:04 <oerjan> `quote 249
22:20:05 <HackEgo> 249) <pikhq> oklofok: I don't watch House, no. <pikhq> oklofok: I prefer knowing how medicine actually works.
22:20:29 <olsner> `quote
22:20:30 <HackEgo> 128) <Warrigal> Darn, now I can't acknowledge the reference you were making.
22:22:10 <elliott> `pastenquotes
22:22:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11835
22:22:13 <elliott> olsner: quote feast for you
22:23:46 <olsner> ooh, there was one of mine in there
22:24:29 <oerjan> `quote olsner
22:24:31 <HackEgo> 175) <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok \ 222) <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION! \ 223) <olsner> DAMN YOU, I'm leaving <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD
22:25:27 <oerjan> `quote 223
22:25:28 <HackEgo> 223) <olsner> DAMN YOU, I'm leaving <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION!
22:25:42 <oerjan> `delquote 222
22:25:43 <HackEgo> *poof*
22:25:47 <oerjan> `quote olsner
22:25:48 <HackEgo> 175) <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok \ 222) <olsner> DAMN YOU, I'm leaving <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION! \ 238) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are
22:26:13 <elliott> `quote fuck
22:26:14 <HackEgo> 249) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
22:26:23 <oerjan> `quote 238
22:26:24 <HackEgo> 238) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle.
22:27:25 <oerjan> `quote f.ck
22:27:26 <HackEgo> No output.
22:27:32 <oerjan> `quote f\.ck
22:27:33 <HackEgo> No output.
22:27:46 <oerjan> ...what happened to yon regexen?
22:28:12 <oerjan> `cat bin/quote
22:28:13 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if [ "$(($1+0))" = "$1" ]; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ egrep -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
22:29:17 <oerjan> `quote f\\.ck
22:29:17 <HackEgo> No output.
22:29:21 <oerjan> `quote f\\\.ck
22:29:22 <HackEgo> No output.
22:30:22 <oerjan> `quote f\(\.\)ck
22:30:22 <HackEgo> No output.
22:30:30 <oerjan> `quote fuck
22:30:31 <HackEgo> 249) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
22:30:53 <olsner> `quote ck
22:30:55 <HackEgo> 3) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 4) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to
22:31:15 <zzo38> Do you know if you can quote search to result only the numbers?
22:31:19 <oerjan> `quote mm.
22:31:20 <HackEgo> No output.
22:31:49 <oerjan> zzo38: you could sed the result?
22:31:53 <elliott> <oerjan> ...what happened to yon regexen?
22:31:56 <elliott> good question
22:32:14 <oerjan> i am assuming some horrible shell escape disease here
22:32:19 <elliott> `run x="f.ck"; [ "$(($x+0))" = "$x" ] && echo poop
22:32:20 <HackEgo> No output.
22:32:24 <elliott> `run x="f.ck"; [ "$(($x+0))" = "$x" ] && echo poop; echo pang
22:32:25 <HackEgo> No output.
22:32:27 <elliott> what.
22:32:34 <elliott> `run x="f.ck"; [ "$(($x+0))" = "$x" ] && echo poop 2>&1; echo pang
22:32:35 <HackEgo> No output.
22:32:37 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, make a new program quotesearch that you can do that?
22:32:39 <elliott> `run x="f.ck"; [ "$(($x+0))" = "$x" ] && echo poop 2>&1; echo pang 2>&1
22:32:39 <elliott> wtf
22:32:39 <HackEgo> No output.
22:32:44 <elliott> zzo38: no, no real reason for it to exist
22:32:48 <elliott> you can just sed
22:33:06 <oerjan> elliott: um that _shouldn't_ trigger that condition, should it?
22:33:07 <zzo38> elliott: Then you will run it in a shell.
22:33:38 <zzo38> `run echo no output
22:33:39 <HackEgo> no output
22:33:44 <elliott> oerjan: but i had an echo after it
22:33:56 <oerjan> elliott: oh
22:33:56 <elliott> zzo38: the programs are shell scripts anyway
22:34:08 <zzo38> elliott: Yes.
22:35:52 <zzo38> `run quote ck | sed 's/).*$//'
22:35:53 <HackEgo> 3 \ 4 \ 9 \ 10 \ 13 \ 41 \ 43 \ 57 \ 61 \ 87 \ 88 \ 110 \ 123 \ 128 \ 129 \ 163 \ 164 \ 177 \ 186 \ 189 \ 217 \ 224 \ 238 \ 239 \ 241 \ 249
22:36:37 <zzo38> `run quote ck | wc
22:36:38 <HackEgo> 26 569 3294
22:37:07 <zzo38> `run quote zzo38 | wc
22:37:08 <HackEgo> 5 95 565
22:37:27 <oerjan> `quote .
22:37:28 <HackEgo> No output.
22:37:33 <oerjan> `quote \.
22:37:34 <HackEgo> No output.
22:37:40 <oerjan> `run quote "."
22:37:41 <HackEgo> No output.
22:37:48 <oerjan> `run quote "\."
22:37:49 <HackEgo> No output.
22:37:51 <oerjan> `run quote "\\."
22:37:52 <HackEgo> No output.
22:37:55 <oerjan> `run quote "\\\."
22:37:55 <HackEgo> No output.
22:37:58 <oerjan> `run quote "\\\\."
22:37:59 <HackEgo> No output.
22:38:02 <oerjan> `run quote "\\\\\."
22:38:02 <HackEgo> No output.
22:38:50 <zzo38> That means there is something wrong with it and you have to correct that program.
22:39:41 <zzo38> `run quote elliott | wc
22:39:42 <HackEgo> 11 194 1181
22:39:50 <zzo38> `run quote esoteric | wc
22:39:50 <HackEgo> 1 19 105
22:39:53 <oerjan> `run if [ "f.ck" ]; then echo yes; else echo no; fi
22:39:54 <HackEgo> yes
22:40:52 <zzo38> `run quote Gregor | wc
22:40:53 <HackEgo> 17 342 2102
22:41:09 * pikhq wonders why Amazon doesn't offer products not sold in the local domestic markets...
22:41:26 <zzo38> `run quote oerjan | wc
22:41:26 <HackEgo> 12 222 1318
22:41:31 <oerjan> `run if [ "$(("f.ck"+0))" = "f.ck" ]; then echo yes; else echo no; fi
22:41:31 <HackEgo> No output.
22:41:33 <elliott> `quote f(u|x)ck
22:41:34 <HackEgo> No output.
22:41:34 <pikhq> Surely they could make *some* money off of import gamers or something.
22:41:37 <elliott> `quote felt
22:41:39 <HackEgo> No output.
22:41:40 <elliott> `quote bin/quote
22:41:42 <HackEgo> No output.
22:41:43 <elliott> `cat bin/quote
22:41:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if [ "$(($1+0))" = "$1" ]; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ egrep -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
22:41:55 <zzo38> `run quote Japan | wc
22:41:56 <HackEgo> 0 0 0
22:41:57 <elliott> `run allquotes | egrep -i -- "f.ck"
22:42:00 <HackEgo> 249) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi
22:42:03 <elliott> ...
22:42:09 <elliott> i say oerjan fixes it
22:42:12 * elliott runs away screaming
22:43:13 <zzo38> Can a file be uploaded to HackEgo? Is there a FTP or something to do so?
22:43:29 <pikhq> But *no*, the only way to get something from Japan via Amazon is to pay exhorbitant shipping & handling fees.
22:43:34 <oerjan> `run sh -c 'if [ "$(("f.ck"+0))" = "f.ck" ];' 2>&1
22:43:36 <HackEgo> /bin/sh: Syntax error: end of file unexpected (expecting "then")
22:43:41 <oerjan> oops
22:43:49 <pikhq> (¥2,700 per shipment! That's ~$27!)
22:44:02 <oerjan> `run sh -c 'if [ "$(("f.ck"+0))" = "f.ck" ]; then echo yes; else echo no; fi' 2&>1
22:44:03 <HackEgo> No output.
22:44:26 <oerjan> oh wait
22:44:41 <oerjan> `run sh -c 'if [ "$((f.ck+0))" = "f.ck" ]; then echo yes; else echo no; fi' 2&>1
22:44:42 <HackEgo> No output.
22:45:09 <oerjan> zzo38: there's a wget i think
22:45:12 <zzo38> pikhq: There are some things they won't ship from Japan. But I have managed to order things from Japan though a local Japanese book store.
22:46:11 <zzo38> oerjan: Is it possible to copy the other way too?
22:46:22 <oerjan> hm
22:46:39 <oerjan> `run echo "$((f.ck+0)"
22:46:40 <HackEgo> No output.
22:46:53 <elliott> oerjan: one more ), but aha
22:46:55 <oerjan> `which paste
22:46:55 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.32135/bin/paste
22:46:56 <elliott> i think it's escaping
22:47:00 <oerjan> `run echo "$((f.ck+0))"
22:47:01 <HackEgo> No output.
22:47:22 <oerjan> zzo38: paste
22:47:38 <oerjan> and then download from repository
22:48:36 <zzo38> `run cat bin/paste
22:48:37 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTE=- \ else \ PASTE="$1" \ fi \ \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.'"$PASTENUM" \ cat "$PASTE" > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM"
22:49:03 <zzo38> Why is there no FTP?
22:49:20 <oerjan> ask Gregor
22:49:41 * pikhq needs a job.
22:49:49 <oerjan> well for one thing the machine probably doesn't accept outside connections...
22:50:07 <oerjan> hm except web, obviously
22:50:41 <oerjan> `run echo "$((f.ck+0))" 2&>1
22:50:42 <HackEgo> No output.
22:50:50 <oerjan> no error message :(
22:50:59 <oerjan> `run sh -c 'echo "$((f.ck+0))"' 2&>1
22:51:00 <HackEgo> No output.
22:51:23 <oerjan> `run sh -c 'echo hi "$((f.ck+0))" ho' 2&>1
22:51:24 <HackEgo> No output.
22:51:31 <zzo38> They don't put other connection allow? On my computer I allowed outside connection for a few different services and might add more later. You can do similar if you need to or if you want to.
22:51:59 <oerjan> s/You/Gregor/
22:52:24 <oerjan> the rest of us cannot escape the sandbox
22:52:27 <zzo38> I mean in general.
22:52:38 <zzo38> And not necessarily on HackEgo, either.
22:52:44 <elliott> oerjan: i'll fix it in a bit
22:53:02 <zzo38> But Gregor should put FTP or whatever other connection in HackEgo if there is a use for it.
22:53:06 <oerjan> elliott: good because i have no idea what $((...)) even _does_ :D
22:54:22 <oerjan> `run echo "$((2+2)"
22:54:23 <HackEgo> No output.
22:54:27 <oerjan> `run echo "$((2+2))"
22:54:28 <HackEgo> 4
22:54:37 <oerjan> ok now i have _some_ idea
22:54:54 <oerjan> `run echo "$((a+2))"
22:54:55 <HackEgo> 2
22:55:02 <oerjan> `run echo "$((f.ck+2))"
22:55:03 <HackEgo> No output.
22:55:17 <oerjan> `run echo "$((r.ck+2))"
22:55:18 <HackEgo> No output.
22:55:44 <oerjan> elliott: i suspect maybe $(()) simply doesn't support this string stuff?
22:56:02 <oerjan> `run echo "$((2 . 2))"
22:56:03 <HackEgo> No output.
22:56:10 <oerjan> `run echo "$((a . b))"
22:56:11 <HackEgo> No output.
22:56:22 <zzo38> Let's see which ports I have available for incoming connections (although not all of them have servers on it all the time): 25 70 80 194 9876
22:56:23 <elliott> duh
22:56:54 <zzo38> (I have servers on 25 and 9876 only when needed, and then I turn it off.)
22:59:39 <Gregor> oerjan, zzo38: You have an HTTP proxy, no other networking at all.
23:05:44 <zzo38> The router I have is stupid, it cannot be configured using FTP or USB or anything else. Also, it seems you cannot disable doing configuration by wirelessly, and occasionally it will stop working even though the light is still flashing.
23:09:28 <coppro> zzo38: that's the case with most routers I've used
23:09:36 <coppro> (it is stupid)
23:10:46 <fizzie> A friend had a network printer which had a FTP server built in; when you uploaded a postscript file, it printed it out.
23:11:12 <fizzie> (It did of course speak some more printery protocols too.)
23:11:17 <fizzie> (And Telnet.)
23:12:35 <zzo38> I would like to see a printer with Plan 9 protocol built in.
23:15:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:22:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:23:07 -!- augur has joined.
23:27:06 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:45:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
23:52:16 <Sgeo> elliott, it seems like the LP is missing videos
23:54:47 <Sgeo> Or not
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