←2010-12-16 2010-12-17 2010-12-18→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:03:40 <elliott> ais523: I was about to ask whether you considered objects being non-plaintext OK but then realised that it's in a DB anyway...
00:03:43 <elliott> SO NEVER MIND
00:07:52 <elliott> omg, can someone kill google for me?
00:10:55 <Vorpal> ineiros, my account seems broken. Could you when you see this message remove the files for it (same as you did for PH when he became a ghost)
00:11:25 <elliott> I was a ghost earlier today and didn't whine about it.
00:11:28 <elliott> I just reconnected and killed it.
00:12:47 <ineiros> Vorpal: Done.
00:13:26 <elliott> ineiros: He's moving in with you BTW.
00:13:37 <elliott> <Vorpal> Deewiant, if that doesn't work, do you have any way to poke the server?
00:13:38 <elliott> <Deewiant> Poke?
00:13:39 <elliott> <Vorpal> Deewiant, as in, get in contact with ineiros
00:13:44 <elliott> ineiros: Make room.
00:15:16 <elliott> Vorpal: hey you're not the most paranoid person ever now
00:15:18 <elliott> http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=106877
00:15:54 <elliott> "I don't trust you, you're lying, make a video to prove you made this" [other person] "here's a pic" [creator] "I'll make a video" [first person] "No we need a video AND a virus scanner because I am scared to even touch a zip if it might have viruses inside oh god"
00:16:28 <elliott> "I unzipped it into a sandbox, avast doesn't showed anything after the scan, it contains a world folder, with usual chunk folders but some strange text/nonextension files" <-- apparently dotfiles are viruses now
00:17:00 <elliott> "Avast crashed near the end when it was scanning those files, so i dont know, Dont wanna risk putting it into my minecraft saves folder. Might steal mah account D:"
00:17:09 <elliott> The stupidity of this place is literally unmatched and unbounded.
00:17:47 <elliott> http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/8152/31306982.png I have no idea how this image is meant to verify that the poster is not the original creator.
00:18:50 <elliott> LOL wtf, one of the people has this in their signature http://www.spa.org/images/stories/logos/468x60_tag.gif
00:18:52 <elliott> seriously??
00:18:54 <elliott> advertising a piracy hotline?
00:19:27 <elliott> "my theroy is he stolen this from another creator and is trying to get unfair gratitude/money (i hate donate buttons) from it."
00:19:51 <elliott> [[ ScottyDoesKnow wrote:You guys do realize that you can only get viruses from certain types of files right? Next somebody will post a text file and you guys will be like "ON NOEZ I'M NOT DOWNLOADING YOUR VIRUZES"
00:19:51 <elliott> Not true. Text files can contain commands to delete system32 or something else that is vital.]]
00:19:55 <elliott> this is so hilarious
00:19:57 <elliott> like a trainwreck
00:19:59 <elliott> can't stop watching
00:24:05 <nooga> elliott: yeah, despite that... enigma is playable
00:24:15 <elliott> nooga: Enigma is a wonderful game and ais523 knows that more than anyone else.
00:24:19 <elliott> It's just a TERRIBLE trailer :P
00:24:31 <nooga> i played oxyds when i was kid
00:25:18 <nooga> ehy ais523 ?
00:25:21 <nooga> why*
00:25:32 <elliott> nooga: he's made some levels, including ones that implement other games, with actual AI
00:25:38 <elliott> included in Enigma
00:25:42 <nooga> oh
00:25:45 <elliott> Anyone else = anyone else in here.
00:25:51 <ineiros> elliott: Good, my rent is killing me. :P
00:25:55 <elliott> nooga: he also single-handedly wrestled a bear to death
00:26:00 <elliott> ineiros: Oh no, he's not going to help with that.
00:26:10 <nooga> ineiros: hehe, same
00:26:13 <elliott> ineiros: He just wants to watch you sleep so that if the server goes down, he can breathe in your face until you wake up to fix it.
00:27:53 <ineiros> That's... disturbing. I might not sleep this night. :P
00:28:33 <elliott> ineiros: It's okay... he'll tuck you in silently.
00:28:37 <elliott> Like a ninja, except creepy.
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00:37:28 <elliott> Vorpal: WHOOPS LOOK AT THAT http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm301/r3ynor/plateau8.png in-air minecarts in single-player survival game
00:37:30 <elliott> circa august
00:37:33 <elliott> guess mobs don't destroy it
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01:38:04 <elliott> Vorpal: fizzie: Better Grass + Better Light + Far rendering distance + Fancy graphics + 128x128 Sanguine texture pack = oh god it is so pretty but my GPU hates me forever
01:42:44 <elliott> even the ROU is pretty
01:45:08 <oerjan> ok what the heck does ROU mean
01:45:43 -!- p_q has joined.
01:45:58 <elliott> oerjan: Rapid Offensive Unit apparently. it's a type of ship from the Culture
01:46:14 <elliott> PH built a gigantic scale replica (200 blocks long, 1 block ~= 1 m^3)
01:46:29 <elliott> out of cobblestone.
01:46:32 <elliott> floating in the air, no less.
01:46:37 <oerjan> aha
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01:47:16 <oerjan> you can defy gravity in minecraft?
01:47:39 * oerjan <- not a player, obviously
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02:02:20 <elliott> oerjan: yes
02:02:24 <elliott> oerjan: unless it's sand, or gravel
02:02:36 <elliott> oerjan: in which case gravity applies because obviously, the more granular something is, the more easily it falls
02:02:46 <oerjan> heh
02:02:58 <oerjan> _obviously_
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02:04:31 <Ilari> Wonder how much better it would look if there was also triangular and pyramidal blocks...
02:05:03 <elliott> Ilari: VIOLATING THE PURITY
02:05:13 <elliott> Ilari: (Admittedly we have half-high blocks and doors and buttons and switches and torches :P)
02:14:05 <Ilari> Granular objects get teared apart much more easily by gravitational tidal forces... :-)
02:15:29 <elliott> Ilari: See, it's obviously logical.
02:15:32 <elliott> Ilari: This is why cobblestone floats.
02:15:34 <elliott> Also dirt.
02:15:39 <elliott> Dirt is, uh, less granular than sand and gravel.
02:15:40 <elliott> STOP QUESTIONING
02:15:49 <Ilari> Fridge logic...
02:17:26 <Ilari> Even ordinary planets can generate powerful enough tidal forces to rip apart objects that aren't solid...
02:18:42 <Ilari> (the forces from gravitational gradient are greater than object self-gravity).
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02:24:20 <Ilari> 100m "rubble pile" of 10cm rocks would become about billion fragments if fragmented...
02:30:59 <Ilari> Trying some scenarios in Earth impact effects program: "Max wind velocity: 637 m/s" "Sound Intensity: 117 dB (May cause ear pain)".
02:33:37 <Ilari> 600+ m/s wind would essentially destry anything on its path. 100m/s for tornado would be in EF5 (Total destruction) catagory...
02:36:16 <pikhq_> Uuuh, damn, that's not far from being an actual shockwave from an explosion.
02:37:10 <pikhq_> See if you can get it up to 194 dB.
02:37:26 <pikhq_> (the maximum possible sound pressure in air at 1 atm)
02:37:29 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
02:39:08 <Ilari> Peak overpressure 40.3bar, peak wind 1590m/s, peak sound intensity 132dB...
02:40:06 <Ilari> 67bar, 2070m/s, 137dB...
02:41:02 <Ilari> 111bar, 2670m/s, 141dB... I don't think this is going to go much higher...
02:43:43 <Ilari> Heh... Current dB drag racing record is 180.5dB...
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03:45:12 <elliott> ais523: i need an opinion
03:45:21 <elliott> ais523: is it okay if object bodies are limited to 2 gigabytes? :D
03:45:33 <elliott> actually it'd probably be fine limited to 64k, since objects are always pretty darn small
03:45:38 <elliott> but 32-bit is Future Proof(TM).
03:45:53 <oerjan> yeah no one cares about fat objects anyway
03:46:41 * oerjan thought ais523 had a near normal sleep schedule
03:49:11 <elliott> oerjan: no way :)
03:49:18 <elliott> oerjan: he's been on american time, before
03:49:27 <elliott> oerjan: IIRC just because of collaborating with an American on something
03:49:34 <oerjan> hm
03:49:40 <elliott> oerjan: also as you've probably seen he has a tendency to be at work at 9pm :P
03:50:18 <oerjan> i said sleep schedule, not work schedule
03:51:04 <elliott> oerjan: right, just saying
04:03:07 <pikhq> Normal sleep schedules are overrated.
04:03:12 <coppro> very
04:03:32 <pikhq> The closest I've been to "normal" the past couple years is going to bed a bit after midnight.
04:03:33 <coppro> I'm happy with my sleep schedule of "go to bed whenever. wake up whenever"
04:03:46 <coppro> I think I've pulled at least an all-nighter a week
04:03:50 <pikhq> Which is actually so astonishingly close to normal that you can actually interact with people IRL with ease doing it.
04:04:05 <pikhq> Kinda odd that I've been able to do it regularly.
04:04:09 <coppro> more if you count going to bed at 5-6am an all-nighter
04:04:27 <elliott> coppro: my problem is that i have terrible akrasia wrt going to bed so i end up tired all the time
04:04:30 <oerjan> pikhq: um i consider "a bit after midnight" within normal range.
04:04:33 <elliott> and also waking up when it's dark or near it depresses me
04:04:53 <coppro> elliott: oh, so do I
04:05:02 <coppro> I rarely wake up when it's dark though
04:05:07 <elliott> coppro: solution: better living through chemistry! remind me to buy that melatonin sometime.
04:05:24 * coppro slaps elliott
04:06:26 * oerjan either forgot or didn't dare to ask the doctor about melatonin yesterday
04:06:57 <oerjan> but on the plus side, i seem not to have diabetes. yay!
04:07:00 <pikhq> oerjan: It's just at the very *edge* of normal, though.
04:10:44 <oerjan> elliott: it looks like some people are migrating from r/programming to r/coding
04:11:31 <elliott> oerjan: just like they did when /r/coding first came around; but there's always been a strong air of anti-Haskellism on /r/coding from what I've seen
04:11:38 <elliott> and a focus on "practical" shit
04:11:43 <oerjan> ah.
04:11:57 <elliott> oerjan: it may be getting better. will have to see.
04:11:59 * oerjan hasn't been to r/coding himself
04:12:13 <pikhq> Who gives a shit about practical? It should be about being interesting!
04:12:17 <elliott> oerjan: e.g. bonch was one of the first users and he's the one behind the Haskell-post-drinking-game spam he put on every haskell post he could find
04:12:28 <elliott> TAKE A DRINK / FOR EVERY HASKELL LINK or something
04:12:31 <pikhq> If it's practical and interesting, awesome. If it's completely impractical and interesting, also awesome!
04:12:32 <elliott> then "Here's to another"
04:12:32 <elliott> IIRC
04:13:58 <elliott> "I had an article to write, but the only word processor I could find on my iMac was TextEdit, essentially a stripped-down version of Notepad." --Reviewer, about OS X, failing to note that TextEdit is vastly more powerful than Notepad, and also not noting that Windows ships with no word processor.
04:14:16 <elliott> "It didn't take long to become frustrated with the iMac mouse too. It limped across my desk, the "on" switch, which is located on the belly of the mouse, scraping the mahogany of my desk as it went."
04:14:19 <elliott> Also he can't afford a mouse pad.
04:14:29 <elliott> "I booted up my bank account before realizing the Mac keyboard had no number pad"
04:14:34 <elliott> Or select the other keyboard option. Or plug in a USB one.
04:14:37 <pikhq> elliott: Windows ships with Wordpad, which actually *is* a word processor.
04:14:42 <elliott> "Neither did Ipswitch FTP, my file-uploader."
04:14:44 <pikhq> A fairly basic one, but that's beside the point.
04:14:48 <elliott> Nor can he, apparently, use another FTP app.
04:14:54 <elliott> pikhq: TextEdit is a word processor too.
04:14:58 <elliott> It has font settings, line spacing, etc.
04:15:04 <elliott> RTF-native, like WordPad.
04:15:18 <oerjan> elliott: heh i just looked at r/coding and two of the top ten links are about haskell :D
04:15:20 <pikhq> Hmm, sure enough, it's essentially on par with Wordpad.
04:15:23 <elliott> "My .flv and .mkv files triggered only error messages, and some of my .mpg clips opened to blank screens."
04:15:43 <elliott> "I opened Mac's Thunderbird, and my jaw dropped again. The font on every email was so small, I was going to need the Hubble telescope just to answer my morning mail."
04:15:45 <elliott> what the fuck
04:15:51 <elliott> you just bought it looking for things to complain about.
04:15:54 <elliott> oerjan: lawl
04:15:57 <pikhq> I think the only OS that does media playback out of the box is... Linux distros.
04:16:10 <pikhq> Well, *general* support for it.
04:16:12 <elliott> pikhq: Hmm? My Slackware install plays your .mkvs not. :P
04:16:21 <pikhq> elliott: True, it depends on the distro.
04:16:37 <elliott> "There were two obvious solutions: For the next few years I could type every letter in 16-point font, then decrease the font size just before sending it, or I could decrease the screen's radically high resolution. I sighed, realizing this was yet another Mac complication for a function my PC simply performed without fuss."
04:16:46 <elliott> JOURNALISM: It's when you complain about high PPI screens.
04:17:03 <pikhq> But... Yeah, it's usually at least a bit of a pain to get support for non-WMV or MPEG on Windows or non-Quicktime or MPEG on Mac OS.
04:17:05 <elliott> "I found the screen settings and slid the resolution bar down one notch. Suddenly everything was fuzzy. The blood vessels in my eyes began to constrict again."
04:17:07 <elliott> It's called LCDs.
04:17:17 <elliott> "The final straw came when Mac's Firefox took me to my website. To my horror, all the spacing was askew, the graphics tossed left and right like the wreckage of a hurricane. I asked myself: As a web designer, how can I design web pages when I can't see what 90 percent of my viewers are seeing?"
04:17:21 <elliott> One might -- and bear with me here --
04:17:26 <elliott> Blame your website rather than WebKit.
04:17:42 <oerjan> elliott: oh and _the_ top link doesn't mention haskell ... but it is an _oleg_ link :D
04:17:53 <elliott> oerjan: that's what we need!! /r/oleg
04:17:59 <pikhq> elliott: s/WebKit/Gecko/ He *said* Firefox, did he not?
04:18:07 <elliott> pikhq: oh indeed :D
04:18:20 <pikhq> elliott: ... Also, couldn't he just *set the DPI for his monitor right*?
04:18:23 <elliott> oerjan: if you could, wouldn't you just read oleg all day.
04:18:35 <elliott> pikhq: it's a built-in display, and OS X doesn't really support setting the ppi.
04:18:38 <elliott> pikhq: so. he has like. half a point.
04:18:48 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, that's kinda stupid.
04:18:57 <elliott> pikhq: (the "plan" is to get all of OS X's graphics scalable or something and then turn on automatic ppi detection so that /everything/ scales properly)
04:19:03 <elliott> pikhq: it's not like apple would ship a half-done solution ;)
04:19:07 <pikhq> elliott: But I'm suspecting *he's* the one being stupid.
04:19:27 <elliott> [[For a second I thought, well, I could load Parallels, the Mac OS program that allows you to run Windows applications on your iMac. But that plan was squashed fast. Before I could complete Parallels' installation, it asked for a copy of the Windows CD. I shook my head in disbelief: where the hell am I going to get a copy of the Windows CD?]]
04:19:35 <elliott> Macs are bad because I don't know where I can buy Windows.
04:19:36 <pikhq> Because it's not like a PPI issue is going to be Mac OS's fault.
04:19:38 <elliott> What.
04:19:56 <pikhq> Run Windows on a very high PPI screen and everything is about the same.
04:20:06 <elliott> "I'm returning my iMac, then headed to Best Buy to snag a PC, one four-times faster than my current computer and $400 cheaper than that iMac."
04:20:14 <elliott> And this one will fall apart seven times faster, too!
04:20:23 <elliott> "I'll spend the difference on a video editing program, a new haircut and a first-rate pair of swing dancing shoes."
04:20:23 <pikhq> Except that unless you have the very latest version, it'll look like shit if you change your setting to match your display!
04:20:26 <elliott> I am going to punch you in the testicles.
04:21:12 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, so he doesn't know the difference between decent-quality hardware and the cheapest shit that still works, either?
04:21:13 <oerjan> elliott: um no.
04:21:24 <elliott> oerjan: why not.
04:21:43 <pikhq> Not to mention that he... Can't buy a copy of Windows?
04:21:55 <pikhq> It's not like that's *niche*.
04:21:57 <elliott> pikhq: that article has managed to piss me off to the point where it's actually increased my already-present niggling desire to buy one of those shiny new MacBook Airs :D
04:22:01 <elliott> (to put Ubuntu on)
04:22:04 <pikhq> Go to any store that sells software.
04:22:11 <elliott> pikhq: (now is the time to convince me not to, by the way)
04:22:22 <pikhq> elliott: Only if you buy me one. :P
04:23:16 <elliott> pikhq: I'm sorry, only one of us can have a 1.32 kg, 0.11-0.68 inch high, 13" 1440x900, 2.13 GHz Core 2 Duo with 256 GiB of SSD storage and a Nvidia GeForce 320M GPU. And ~6-7 hours battery life.
04:23:23 <elliott> And a multitouch glass trackpad.
04:23:38 <elliott> And no fucking Ethernet port so they swindle you out of the money for the USB 2 adapter for it. :p
04:23:49 <pikhq> Sucks for you, doesn't it?
04:23:50 <elliott> (Admittedly, it is thinner than an Ethernet cable at all points.)
04:23:51 <pikhq> :P
04:24:02 <elliott> also it can only do about 80 Mbit ethernet because of USB 2 but really who cares
04:24:07 <elliott> i don't have other computers to LAN with :P
04:24:08 <oerjan> elliott: because reading much oleg would make my brain hurt just as much as anyone else's
04:24:30 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, USB 2 is 480 Mb/s nominal.
04:24:39 <elliott> pikhq: well, it doesn't manage more than 80 Mbit :P
04:24:41 <pikhq> elliott: Surely it can sustain 100 Mb/s.
04:24:44 <elliott> pikhq: it's 100 Mbit ethernet only
04:24:47 <elliott> pikhq: dunno why 80, oh well
04:24:58 <elliott> pikhq: it's actually a network adapter encased in plastic, since the motherboard doesn't even have a PHY
04:25:30 <elliott> pikhq: the machine, the ethernet adapter, and the USB optical drive total to £1,599.02, which is really a ridiculous figure considering this machine cost about £500 :)
04:25:40 <elliott> but it's shiny and thin and gaaah logical brain functions disabled.
04:25:46 <elliott> oerjan: hurt or AWESOME
04:25:55 <pikhq> "USB optical drive"? Who needs such outmoded media?
04:26:08 <elliott> pikhq: OS X upgrades are not yet offered via USB stick afaik :P
04:26:17 <pikhq> Fuck OS X.
04:26:19 <elliott> admittedly, it would save £65.
04:26:27 <elliott> pikhq: You need OS X to upgrade the EFI. Also because of shiny.
04:26:42 <pikhq> Fuck the Macbook Air, then.
04:26:58 <elliott> pikhq: I'll cut you a deal. Work on scapegoat for a few years with me and ais523, and I'll buy you the 11" model. 1.4 GHz processor, 2 GiB RAM, 64 GiB flash storage. £849!
04:27:32 <elliott> pikhq: (Anyway, the next OS X updates will probably be available by the Steve Jobs Ego-Enhancing Spooge Factory, also known as the Mac App Store, so you shouldn't actually need an optical drive.)
04:27:38 <pikhq> But by that time I'll probably have a degree and good employment!
04:30:47 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but you'll still be unable to bring yourself to buy a Mac.
04:30:55 <elliott> pikhq: Also, good employment: USA: job market: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
04:31:10 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe we could get ais523 to somehow employ us to work on scapegoat.
04:32:29 <pikhq> elliott: I intend to expatriate.
04:33:19 <elliott> pikhq: World: Job market: HAHAHAHAHA
04:34:02 <pikhq> elliott: Funny, seems to me the rest of the world is merely in a recession, rather than trying its hardest to *ruin everything*.
04:34:21 <elliott> pikhq: Recession.
04:34:59 * Gregor seems to be gainfully employed, and in the USA :P
04:35:54 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but you have a jew nose and hats.
04:35:56 <elliott> Also ties.
04:36:00 <elliott> pikhq has none of these things.
04:36:10 <oerjan> what recession? </norwegian trollface>
04:36:21 <elliott> oerjan: JUST WAIT UNTIL YOU RUN OUT OF OIL
04:36:23 <elliott> JUST WAIT
04:36:28 <Gregor> Hats are expensive, but I'd be happy to punch pikhq in the face, and you can get ties at any goodwill.
04:36:43 <elliott> Gregor: No amount of punching can reach jewnose status :P
04:37:55 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe if you committed suicide and also killed all the other jews, after punching pikhq in the face, he might have the biggest nose.
04:37:57 <elliott> But until then. No.
04:38:43 <Gregor> It's not size, it's shape.
04:38:48 <Gregor> I mean, yeah, it's size :P
04:38:51 <Gregor> But it's mainly shape!
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04:42:14 <elliott> Gregor: Sort of like penises.
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04:46:07 <oerjan> elliott: we already passed peak oil, actually. now the buzz is mainly about natural gas.
04:47:19 <elliott> oerjan: shut up.
04:47:42 <oerjan> and our ministers of finance have been fond of reminding us that despite oil and all, norway's largest amount of capital remains its workforce.
04:49:08 * pikhq has a big nose, actually.
04:50:17 <pikhq> oerjan: You guys also have the property of having things damned nice. I mean, aside from the weather, Norway sounds like an incredibly nice place to be.
04:51:46 <Gregor> Well, apart from being ... y'know ... Norway.
04:52:27 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, like you're one to talk. You live in the same country as Palin.
04:52:59 <Gregor> pikhq: And you live in the same country as Bush!
04:53:05 <pikhq> Oh God.
04:53:43 <pikhq> Where's my sword. I need to ritually remove a large portion of my digestive system, thereby causing death.
04:54:20 * oerjan imagines if bush had been born in japan instead. scary.
04:54:50 <oerjan> mass suicide all over
04:55:03 <pikhq> oerjan: Except Bush couldn't do as much there.
04:55:14 <pikhq> oerjan: If Japan goes all crazy and stuff, the world can just tell them to fuck off.
04:55:26 <pikhq> oerjan: If the US goes all crazy and stuff, well, there goes a country.
04:55:50 <oerjan> pikhq: only until japan develops the giant robots
04:56:06 <pikhq> Well, yes, Japan with mechs would fuck us all.
04:56:36 <pikhq> (citation: half of all siȳônenn anime.)
04:57:39 <oerjan> pikhq: i think it _would_ be nice if you used a transcription i could actually google :D
04:58:13 <pikhq> oerjan: Fine, fine.
04:58:15 <pikhq> oerjan: Shonen
04:58:27 <oerjan> i just guessed that actually
04:59:03 <pikhq> Alternately, you could just learn the rules of Japanese orthography minus the glyphs. :P
04:59:18 <pikhq> (which is literally all that there is to my transcription scheme...)
04:59:27 <oerjan> mhm
05:00:54 <elliott> pikhq: please translate "desu" to your scheme so i can troll /classily/
05:01:11 <pikhq> tèsu
05:04:39 * pikhq listens to ナイトフィシングイズグッド (NAITO HUĪSINNKÙ ISÙ KÙ'TÒ)[Night Fishing Is Good] by サカナクション (SAKANAKUSIȲONN)[Sakanaction] happily
05:04:57 * pikhq also wonders what's with the Engrish in the title
05:05:17 <pikhq> Only problem with Japanese music: knowing English makes much of it painful.
05:06:55 <elliott> I disagree night fishing is AWESOME
05:07:11 <pikhq> 'Tis a good album.
05:07:35 <Gregor> A lot of problems with the Japanese seem to come down to the fact that Japan wants to be America Jr.: All the America, None of the Fat!
05:07:59 <pikhq> Gregor: Not really.
05:08:15 <pikhq> Gregor: At least, that explains absolutely *none* of the WTF factor you get from there.
05:08:39 <Gregor> Oh, there's a unique WTF factor of course, but that's combined with Americaphilia.
05:08:59 <pikhq> They actually have severe foreignphobia...
05:09:07 <pikhq> "OH GOD IT'S FROM OUT OF THE COUNTRY"
05:09:44 <pikhq> And they have NIH to an extent that would shock zzo38.
05:09:48 <Gregor> Just - like - America
05:09:55 <Gregor> Err, to the last part
05:10:01 <quintopia> who likes awful puns?
05:10:18 <quintopia> (that's a rhetorical question)
05:10:26 <quintopia> oerjan: see latest xkcd
05:10:58 <elliott> quintopia: it's xkcd, the ID is above 400, and Randall is off his five-minute-comics-that-are-actually-funny streak.
05:11:05 <elliott> there is no reason to type in the keys x k c d . c o m enter
05:11:10 <pikhq> Gregor: Do Americans only usually take tours of foreign countries in highly coördinated tours with swarms of fellow Americans?
05:11:23 <pikhq> Gregor: Cause, uh, that's kinda a social norm in Japan.
05:11:26 <quintopia> elliott: you do not like awful puns. oerjan does. that should be reason enough for him.
05:11:31 <elliott> verified terrible
05:11:37 <elliott> quintopia: even oerjan recognises how bad xkcd is :)
05:11:47 <quintopia> ah well
05:11:49 <elliott> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome
05:11:57 <elliott> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_syndrome is interesting)
05:12:07 <Gregor> pikhq: No, Americans just refuse to acknowledge that other countries exist.
05:12:09 <elliott> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stendhal_syndrome
05:12:23 <quintopia> as far as awful puns go, this one made me giggle slightly more than his usually do, so i'm going to give him half credit
05:12:33 <ais523> hmm, someone on a forum suggested using Wikipedia to predict the day of the week future dates would fall on
05:12:39 <ais523> wouldn't a calendar work better?
05:12:47 <quintopia> ...or do it in your head
05:12:52 <quintopia> it's a pretty simple calculation
05:13:19 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_terrorists_have_won wikipedia confirms ir
05:13:20 <pikhq> Gregor: Okay, true, the US kinda has it bad, too.
05:13:20 <elliott> *it
05:13:30 <elliott> ais523: better than Doomsday imo
05:13:31 <elliott> :D
05:13:41 <elliott> ais523: i might implement a cal(1) that does that
05:13:55 <pikhq> Gregor: But *dear God they create their own everything* when it comes to tech for no good reason.
05:13:59 <ais523> (I'm reading about the efforts to crack the RNG in the new Pokémon games; they created something crazy with internal timings, DS ID numbers, MAC addresses, SHA-1 hashing, and to-the-frame timings, and yet people /still/ cracked it by disassembling the code)
05:14:24 <pikhq> ais523: Link?
05:14:38 <elliott> ais523: i bet reverse engineers would hate it if companies just gave up and didn't obfuscate anything
05:14:40 <elliott> where's the fun gone
05:14:41 <elliott> :P
05:14:50 <elliott> ais523: i think i pinged you a few times in the log
05:14:52 <elliott> don't recall
05:14:54 -!- TLUL has joined.
05:14:59 <ais523> pikhq: Smogon Univeristy's RNG research threads
05:15:17 <ais523> I'm not sure if there's a single post summarising yet
05:15:29 <elliott> 19:45:21 <elliott> ais523: is it okay if object bodies are limited to 2 gigabytes? :D
05:15:29 <elliott> 19:45:33 <elliott> actually it'd probably be fine limited to 64k, since objects are always pretty darn small
05:15:29 <elliott> 19:45:38 <elliott> but 32-bit is Future Proof(TM).
05:16:16 <ais523> elliott: only object I can see getting that large is a binary blob which is being stored per-file rather than per-byte (the only two units of measurement that make sense for a binary with no format data)
05:16:38 <elliott> ais523: yeah, I'll go with 48-bit or 64-bit prolly "just in case"
05:16:42 <elliott> remind me to, please :P
05:16:43 <elliott> or just...
05:16:47 <elliott> ===HEY YOU, ELLIOTT
05:16:49 <ais523> bignum?
05:16:51 <elliott> wait no
05:16:55 <elliott> ===HEY, LISTEN!===
05:16:55 <elliott> ===HEY, LISTEN!===
05:16:55 <elliott> ===HEY, LISTEN!===
05:16:56 <elliott> ===HEY, LISTEN!===
05:17:03 <elliott> there, that should make me recoil enough to pay attention
05:17:08 <elliott> ais523: in a binary file format?
05:17:16 <elliott> ais523: basically pointless, show me a >64-bit-length file :)
05:17:19 <ais523> elliott: where did you pick up zelda memes from?
05:17:41 <ais523> also, in a suitable encoding, bignums would generally be less than 64 bits long
05:17:41 <elliott> ais523: hey listen is more an everywhere meme than a zelda-specific one... also i /have/ played some of the zeldas (plural!)
05:17:58 <elliott> not very far, admittedly, but enough to want to claw navi's eyeballs out. did it have eyeballs? i forget.
05:18:08 <ais523> I thought Ocarina of Time was what started the meme in the first place
05:18:29 <ais523> even if it spread from there
05:18:46 <ais523> also, I was watching a video of someone glitching their way through the whole game (tool-assisted)
05:18:46 <elliott> it is
05:18:59 <ais523> and it turns out that the infinite sword glitch can be triggered off anything that displays a message
05:19:04 <ais523> including Navi's advice
05:19:15 <ais523> so someone actually found a use for it in a maximum-speed glitched speedrun, which was hilarious
05:19:30 <elliott> heh
05:19:46 <oerjan> <elliott> quintopia: even oerjan recognises how bad xkcd is :) <-- NO I DON'T! ER WAIT...
05:19:54 <elliott> ais523: someone should make a pokemon rom hack that lets you DISABLE ALL THE FUCKING REPEATED TEXT
05:19:59 <elliott> like telling you what a pokecentre is every fucking time
05:20:11 <elliott> does it restore my pokemon to full health! really! i didn't know that. thanks for the tip.
05:20:18 <ais523> we hope to see you again!
05:20:28 <ais523> (they actually fixed that for black and white when they realised the implications)
05:20:57 <ais523> also, ooh, an interesting theory
05:21:08 <pikhq> elliott: Probably the most annoying thing about Pokémon is the very slow walk speed.
05:21:26 <ais523> it's that the crazy generation method, because it's based off internal timings, is meant to detect whether you had an action replay connected when you caught the Pokémon or not
05:21:26 <pikhq> It's such fucking filler.
05:21:30 <elliott> pikhq: my finger is in a permanent press-B-down position
05:21:42 <elliott> *thumb
05:21:43 <ais523> elliott: they actually fixed that for HGSS, there's a toggle-permanent-B on the touchscreen
05:21:51 <pikhq> elliott: ?
05:21:55 <elliott> pikhq: "run"
05:21:57 <ais523> mostly because it's designed to be playable dpad-and-touchscreen
05:21:59 <elliott> ais523: heh, i just realised the implications of "we hope to see you again"
05:22:02 <pikhq> elliott: ...
05:22:05 <elliott> pikhq: what
05:22:15 <pikhq> elliott: When did they add that?
05:22:18 <elliott> ais523: i haven't played anything past sapphire 'cuz i'm OLDSCHOOL
05:22:19 <ais523> pikhq: only available from 3rd gen onwards, if you're wondering how you missed it all this time
05:22:27 <elliott> right i sort of haven't played first gen :)
05:22:39 <elliott> or uh, anything but sapphire, i think i played another one of the generations at some point
05:22:44 <pikhq> The last gen I played was 2nd.
05:22:47 <ais523> ah
05:22:59 <ais523> also, it's an unlockable in all the games in question, but it normally unlocks very early
05:23:03 <ais523> about when walking everywhere is getting old
05:23:17 <elliott> if you can't unlock it in previous gens, woop, guess i won't be playing them
05:23:37 <elliott> oh wait i have played diamond
05:23:38 <ais523> the transport situation gets better from gen to gen
05:23:39 <elliott> a bit
05:23:44 <ais523> but strangely, better in the later games of a gen to the earlier
05:24:00 <ais523> e.g. you can normally bicycle through guardhouses in the later games in a gen, but not the earlier games
05:24:07 <pikhq> elliott: Well, with first/second gen you can crank up the emulation speed.
05:24:12 <ais523> which is a nice timesaver as you don't have to get back on the bike again
05:24:13 <elliott> pikhq: :D
05:24:19 <elliott> ais523: how odd
05:24:35 <elliott> ais523: prediction: next gen pokemon will be partly procedurally-generated
05:24:40 <elliott> (i say prediction, I mean hope)
05:24:50 <ais523> pikhq: shall I be naive enough to assume you're referring to Pokémon Stadium's link-to-early-gen-gamepak-and-play-at-enhanced-speed feature?
05:25:00 <pikhq> ais523: That *or* a ROM.
05:25:06 <ais523> you can tell it's bad if they released an unlockable in an entirely different game just to play it faster
05:25:40 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, in Pokémon Stadium you could play an early-gen game emulated on the N64. And crank it up to 8x speed.
05:25:44 <elliott> ais523: no no clearly pikhq ripped the ROM from his actual legal cart
05:25:46 <elliott> because people do that
05:25:49 <elliott> all the time.
05:25:55 <pikhq> (Stadium 1 only did gen 1, Stadium 2 did gens 1 and 2.)
05:26:08 <elliott> guess what's a shitty game
05:26:09 <elliott> CORRECT
05:26:11 <elliott> pokemon colosseum
05:26:26 <ais523> nah, colosseum's one of the best of the Pokémon games, from what I've seen of it
05:26:30 <ais523> although admittedly I haven't actually played it
05:26:36 <elliott> ais523: really? i've played it and got so bored that I just stopped
05:26:43 <ais523> heh
05:26:44 <elliott> without even getting anywhere
05:26:47 <elliott> well, much
05:26:54 <pikhq> (or if you go by Japanese names: Stadium 2 only did gen 1, Stadium Gold & Silver did gens 1 and 2.)
05:27:05 <pikhq> (and Stadium 1 sucked)
05:27:05 <elliott> pikhq: what's jap Stadium 1
05:27:06 <ais523> it has an actual plot, an actual AI, and boss battles that are actually interesting
05:27:18 <elliott> ais523: maybe i shoulda sticked with it
05:27:20 <elliott> *stuck
05:27:22 <elliott> or *sticked :P
05:27:43 <pikhq> elliott: It only had 42 Pokémon coded in, and was crazy-hard.
05:27:44 <elliott> ais523: hmm, pokemon would be nice with a keyboard
05:27:47 <elliott> single keys for attacks
05:27:58 <ais523> that's how it works in HGSS, using the touchpad
05:28:07 <pikhq> And it was originally released for the 64DD, which bombed.
05:28:10 <ais523> actually, that works even in DPP; it's one of the few touchpad controls they actually got right there
05:30:54 <ais523> meh, I'm the sort of person who ignores most apparently interesting Pokémon news
05:31:00 <ais523> and then goes all crazy over Mental Herb blocking Taunt
05:31:31 <pikhq> Eh, I'm the sort of person that hasn't followed the series much at all. Though... Not for any real reason other than not doing so.
05:31:52 <pikhq> I mean, it's still a decent RPG series.
05:32:03 <elliott> if they removed all the dialogue
05:32:15 <elliott> and made it less irritating to avoid trainers stairing at you with their eyes causing legally-binding fights to the death
05:32:21 <elliott> and then made walking take like 0 seconds
05:32:25 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, true, almost all of the dialogue is pointless.
05:32:26 <elliott> i'd play the shit out of it.
05:32:26 <ais523> elliott: actually, that happens because of running
05:32:32 <elliott> ais523: really?
05:32:34 <ais523> for randomly-facing trainers, you can sneak past them, but only by walking
05:32:35 <elliott> ais523: today I learned!
05:32:43 <ais523> for fixed-facing trainers, there's not much you can do about it
05:32:44 <elliott> ais523: well, right, i know that
05:32:46 <ais523> other than walk round them
05:32:51 <elliott> it's the fixed ones i hate, sometimes you can't
05:32:52 <ais523> and that usually isn't possible
05:32:52 <pikhq> ais523: ... YOU CAN AVOID THOSE BASTARDS IN LATER GENS?
05:32:58 <elliott> pikhq: hahaha
05:33:01 <elliott> good luck timing it, though
05:33:09 <elliott> they love turning around to look in your direction JUST as you start to move away
05:33:19 <ais523> elliott: because you're running, it's 100% guaranteed if you run
05:33:21 <pikhq> FUCK THEM SO MUCH
05:33:27 <ais523> walking or cycling, it's just random
05:33:28 <elliott> ais523: no, when walking
05:33:30 <elliott> hmm
05:33:33 <elliott> the battle options should be
05:33:34 <elliott> fight
05:33:35 <elliott> bag
05:33:36 <elliott> run
05:33:37 <elliott> pokemon
05:33:41 <elliott> punch the little bastard
05:33:47 <elliott> at least for the stupid bug guys
05:33:53 <elliott> why do they ever think they'll win
05:33:54 <pikhq> The god damned bug catchers.
05:34:14 <pikhq> My Mewtwo will still kick your ass.
05:34:30 <ais523> hey, don't knock bug catchers, their purpose is for providing XP to speedrunners
05:34:47 <ais523> most Pokémon speedruns ignore all non-mandatory trainers but the bug catchers near the start
05:34:52 <ais523> (and in R/B, the trainer before Brock)
05:35:01 <ais523> (that is, if they don't glitch past him)
05:35:08 <pikhq> ais523: http://tasvideos.org/1678M.html What do you mean, "XP"?
05:35:15 <elliott> MY MISSINGNO DEFEATS ALL
05:35:24 <elliott> although really
05:35:24 <pikhq> elliott: I ♥ using Missingno.
05:35:27 <elliott> i primarily fight with magikarp
05:35:27 <ais523> pikhq: which TAS is that? the one that doesn't catch any Pokémon at all?
05:35:33 <elliott> have you ever fought those fishers who
05:35:34 <ais523> or even collect the first one
05:35:37 <elliott> literally just have three magikarps
05:35:40 <elliott> it's pathetic
05:35:43 <elliott> and really kind of sad
05:35:45 <ais523> elliott: ofc, great source of speed EVs
05:35:49 <elliott> well THAT one just bobbed up and down a bit
05:35:50 <pikhq> ais523: The one that corrupts the save data to skip from the very first room to the end credits.
05:35:50 <ais523> it's rather easier than farming Starlys
05:35:53 <elliott> but I'm sure this one will do something more!!
05:35:55 <elliott> why do they even bother
05:35:59 <ais523> pikhq: very first room? it was obsoleted
05:36:04 <elliott> surely they should try and NOT look at you since apparently people who lose matches PASS OUT
05:36:06 <ais523> it turned out skipping from the second room was slightly faster
05:36:13 <elliott> and have to be magically teleported to a glorified mechanical vet
05:36:20 <elliott> or is it your house, i forget
05:36:21 <elliott> vet i think
05:36:22 <ais523> elliott: nope, they even flavoured that away later on
05:36:23 <pikhq> ais523: Oh, that does leave his bedroom, doesn't it.
05:36:27 <pikhq> Goes downstairs!
05:36:29 <ais523> pikhq: yep
05:36:33 <elliott> ais523: they did? THEY ARE DESTROYING EVERYTHING I HOLD DEAR, how did they do it
05:36:41 <ais523> resetting the game in the middle of a save
05:36:45 <elliott> i mean
05:36:46 <ais523> you know the game tells you not to? that's why
05:36:48 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: nope, they even flavoured that away later on
05:36:51 <ais523> oh
05:36:52 <elliott> ais523: i've tried that tons!!
05:36:54 <elliott> it always just like
05:36:56 <elliott> broke my save
05:36:57 <elliott> or did nothing
05:36:59 <elliott> so disappointing.
05:37:02 <elliott> i tried all kinds of timing
05:37:07 <ais523> it's flavoured as you running back to a poké center, protecting the fainted Pokémon from further harm
05:37:13 <elliott> also ripping the cart now, a favourite of mine
05:37:14 <elliott> *out
05:37:25 <elliott> tends to make the soundtrack glitch music temporarily
05:37:25 <ais523> which would be hilarious in, say, the Distortion World
05:37:27 <pikhq> elliott: In the first gen, doing it during a trade would clone a Pokémon.
05:37:36 <ais523> pikhq: in the second gen too
05:37:40 <pikhq> Both parties would have the first Pokémon and lose the second.
05:37:44 <pikhq> Oh, right, second gen too.
05:37:51 <ais523> in Emerald, you could do it by interrupting the save caused before a link battle tower battle
05:37:57 <pikhq> I used that a lot with my brother. Screw you, Pidgy!
05:38:03 <ais523> (ruby and sapphire have no known exploitable glitches of the sort)
05:38:07 <pikhq> Erm, Pidgey.
05:38:15 <ais523> in diamond and pearl, you can do it during the save after depositing a Pokémon on the GTS
05:38:20 <pikhq> You could also do the same thing with the boxes in gen 2.
05:38:39 <ais523> (the DP cloning method doesn't even lose a Pokémon, it just creates an extra copy out of thin air)
05:39:41 <elliott> i should really leave, like, now
05:39:47 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:39:47 <ais523> need to sleep?
05:39:52 <ais523> apparently so
05:40:09 <pikhq> Butbut hǫke'tomonnsutâ!
05:46:08 <zzo38> I know POKESAV can also be used to modify the game state information. It seems to not always work though.
05:47:12 <zzo38> But I don't know if POKESAV is wrong or if eepinator is broken.
05:51:28 <zzo38> I once made up how you can play Pokemon Red using only a 8x8 ASCII display. It is enough, in fact you can display more information than Pokemon Red did itself, and with only 7 buttons (push only 1 button at once) you can do many actions much quicker actually, too.
05:53:22 <ais523> pokesav'ed Pokémon can be detected unless it's done really well, it doesn't generate all the data according to the algorithm Pokémon itself uses
05:53:50 <ais523> which Pokémon games do you play (emulated, simulated or on the cartridge), btw? just red/blue?
05:54:17 <zzo38> ais523: Emulated I have played Red. On the cartridge I have played Pearl.
05:54:30 <ais523> interesting
05:54:49 <zzo38> I don't play multiplayer over the internet.
05:54:54 <ais523> I mostly use a simulator to play Platinum (the simulator lets you set any legal team you want, and play against other people, using an independent codebase)
05:54:58 <zzo38> I realized many broken things in these games.
05:55:04 <ais523> because the AI isn't good enough to let single-player work
05:55:38 <ais523> proof is that I beat the final, bonus boss of Pokémon HeartGold with a team of level 5, unevolved Pokémon
05:56:00 <ais523> because training up my main squad to a level where it could win would have taken too long
05:57:01 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner]).
05:57:14 <zzo38> ais523: Did you know that an 8x8 ASCII display (no colors, no reverse video) with only 7 buttons (without pushing multiple buttons at once) is enough to play Pokemon Red and display even more information at once than Pokemon Red does?
05:57:21 <pikhq> ais523: Uh, what?
05:58:06 <ais523> zzo38: it wouldn't surprise me
05:58:22 <ais523> pikhq: it just takes a bit of strategy and a bit of lateral thinking
05:58:30 <ais523> together with some effects that are new in 4th gen, admittedly
05:58:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Did 1st gen even *use* select?
05:58:47 <zzo38> ais523: Also I have won Pokemon Pearl with only six of Ditto with no attacks and all zero IVs. But I had a lot of potions though.
05:59:04 <zzo38> pikhq: It used the SELECT button to reorder items only, I think.
05:59:09 <TLUL> Meanwhile I just used a GTS-traded maxed Mew to beat Diamond
05:59:09 <pikhq> Oh, right, so it did.
05:59:22 <pikhq> Aaaah, Mew.
05:59:27 <TLUL> So cute ^_^
05:59:31 <ais523> that was likely hacked, even if it had legal stats
05:59:34 <ais523> what nature?
05:59:40 <TLUL> Of course it was hacked
05:59:41 <TLUL> Umm
05:59:48 <TLUL> Dunno, I forget
06:00:09 <TLUL> It had perfect IVs for attack and special attack, with the extra point on speed
06:00:16 <ais523> I wrote a Pokémon legality checker, that told you things like what time and date to set the DS to to catch the Pokémon if it was legal
06:00:19 <ais523> TLUL: that's EV, not IV
06:00:28 <pikhq> ais523: Unless the game is as glitchy as gen 1 was, probably hacked. :)
06:00:31 <TLUL> Oh right
06:00:34 <TLUL> Yeah.
06:00:37 <TLUL> The IVs were all 31s
06:00:38 <ais523> IVs can be maxed in all six stats at once, under certain circumstances
06:00:41 <ais523> indeed
06:00:46 <zzo38> But in the thing I wrote about 8x8 ASCII Pokemon Red, it used all seven buttons for nearly all things. In battle mode, up/down/left/right use an attack (there are four of them), A is ITEM, B is SHIFT, C is SURRENDER.
06:01:45 <zzo38> If I ever write that game, I will write the VM first and make it as a game in the VM.
06:01:53 <TLUL> Anyone have a torrent file for Hazard's OSX cracks? The only one I can find is for tracker.thepiratebay.org, which was shut down
06:02:01 <TLUL> And now resolves to localhost
06:02:11 <TLUL> Which confused the hell out of me for a couple of seconds :P
06:02:24 <TLUL> Since I have httpd running.
06:02:26 <ais523> TLUL: no asking for ROMs/crack data on Freenode, it's against the rules
06:02:28 <pikhq> TLUL: Well, you should still have the infohash, making the torrent still good.
06:02:56 <zzo38> There was some restrictions though: Item names and attack names are all no more than five letters long. Pokemon species names don't exist, they are three-digits numbers. Nicknames are up to two letters long.
06:03:07 <TLUL> Technically I'm not asking for it, I'm asking if someone happens to have the hash of it.
06:03:10 <TLUL> Two loopholes there.
06:03:22 <pikhq> TLUL: The torrent file possesses the hash.
06:03:28 <pikhq> Bamf.
06:06:06 <zzo38> In my opinion there are many broken things in the Pokemon games and a "Limited" mode could be added to correct them.
06:06:20 <ais523> pikhq: well, I have a completely legit quint-flawless Arceus
06:06:24 <ais523> admittedly, with an imperfect nature
06:06:38 <ais523> zzo38: they might have fixed them in later games
06:06:41 <pikhq> ais523: "Mew".
06:06:51 <ais523> pikhq: Arceus is also an event mon, if you hadn't noticed
06:07:01 <ais523> I actually went and attended the event
06:07:06 <pikhq> Oh, right, so it is.
06:07:09 <ais523> because it happened to be nearby
06:07:09 <pikhq> Fuck event mons.
06:07:10 <zzo38> ais523: I have played some games and heard of some of them and the newer games tend to be even more broken.
06:08:23 <ais523> well, playing them multiplayer, the brokenness can be used on both sides
06:08:33 <ais523> although some things are banned because they make the game unbalanced, unfun, or too luck-dependent
06:08:40 <ais523> like putting more than one enemy Pokémon to sleep at a time
06:08:53 <zzo38> ais523: Well, yes. I am refering to single-player mode.
06:08:53 <coppro> and causing a tie is a loss
06:09:01 <coppro> that one's important
06:09:14 <TLUL> What?
06:09:20 <TLUL> But that's a strategic move!
06:09:26 <coppro> exactly why
06:09:30 <TLUL> Also, how do you cause a tie? Make everything die at once?
06:09:36 <ais523> yep
06:09:46 <ais523> coppro: actually, depending on the tournament, it depends on /how/ you cause a tie
06:09:53 <coppro> ais523: oh?
06:09:56 <ais523> in tPCI's official tournaments, even dying to the recoil of your own attack is enough to make you lose
06:10:17 <coppro> oh, hadn't thought of that
06:10:18 <zzo38> One thing that can be done is selecting SET battle mode. In SHIFT battle mode, the player gets an advantage to shift for free while the opponent gets no such advantage. I always played in SET mode. But the game is still very broken.
06:10:24 <ais523> in most tournaments run by other people, dying to the recoil of your own attack, if you KO the enemy's last Pokémon in the process, is a win unless it was selfdestruct/explosion
06:10:39 <ais523> zzo38: set mode's the mode used for all tournaments
06:10:43 <coppro> I guess that covers the Destiny Bond case
06:11:01 <coppro> what about Perish Song?
06:11:25 <ais523> I'm not sure there's a ruling for the non-official tournaments, as it comes up so rarely
06:11:35 <ais523> but in tPCI's tournaments, it's a loss for whoever used perish song
06:11:46 <coppro> in any case, Pokemon is losing interest to me
06:11:55 <zzo38> ais523: SET mode is automatically selected in multiplayer mode I think. In multiplayer mode, maybe it should have also draft mode and betting and doubling cube and riichi and dora and low PP starting, and money for usable items and so on.
06:11:56 <coppro> it's gettin gsilly
06:12:14 <ais523> zzo38: money for usable items would be unbalanced, it's too easy to grind
06:12:29 <ais523> 5th gen has an optional mode making you gain points that can be spent on items every turn
06:12:40 <ais523> starting at 0
06:12:55 <ais523> and of course, from 2nd gen onwards every Pokémon gets to bring a hold item into battle
06:13:00 <zzo38> ais523: No, you have a certain amount of money at the beginning of the tournament, and from that you must select all items and all pokemons too. You start with no pokemons at the beginning of the tournament either.
06:13:07 <zzo38> (Sort of like a Magic: the Gathering booster draft)
06:13:08 <ais523> ah
06:13:12 <ais523> I think there have been tournaments a bit like that
06:13:21 <ais523> but good teambuilding is normally considered more interesting
06:13:37 <ais523> I'd play you at a diamond/pearl/platinum game online, if you had a team to build
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06:14:22 <ais523> (normally, the way it's done is to agree on a list of banned Pokémon before the battle; there are some common banlists depending on what sort of power of play you want)
06:14:52 <zzo38> ais523: That is because it is Constructed. I want to play Limited.
06:14:53 <coppro> The online gaming still interests me a little
06:15:03 <coppro> but I find that it's still getting too ridiculous
06:15:16 <coppro> and I have better things to do
06:15:19 <ais523> well, the gaming itself is generally only a small subset of what's legal
06:15:21 <coppro> (like M:tG)
06:15:26 <ais523> because the rest is just underpowered/useless
06:15:34 <coppro> that's why Limited is fun
06:15:36 <ais523> (I used to play M:tG, but gave up when they released a couple of bad sets in a row)
06:15:46 <coppro> ais523: Mercadian Masques?
06:15:52 <ais523> nah, much later
06:15:57 <coppro> Kamigawa?
06:15:58 <zzo38> I also want to play with low starting PP. And riichi.
06:16:01 <ais523> zzo38: there's a Limited mode in Pokémon Platinum
06:16:04 <ais523> coppro: Lorwyn
06:16:14 <coppro> ais523: oh, ha and blargh
06:16:21 <ais523> you get to draft a team of 3 from a random 6 you start off with
06:16:27 <coppro> ais523: Do you mean Battle Factory? That was also in Emerald.
06:16:34 <ais523> then after the battle, if you win, you get to swap one of yours with one of the opponent's
06:16:35 <ais523> coppro: yes
06:16:41 <ais523> it's slightly different between the two, though
06:16:56 <ais523> and not really as fun as constructed because it's far too luck-based
06:16:57 <coppro> true
06:17:07 <ais523> if you get a bad initial selection, there's not a lot you can do aobut it
06:17:09 <ais523> *about
06:17:18 <coppro> drafting solves that problem neatly
06:17:25 <coppro> and is for that reason much nicer than Sealed
06:17:37 <ais523> not necessarily
06:17:51 <ais523> the best Pokémon in the selection will be drafted first, and some will be much better than others
06:17:59 <coppro> there is a little bit of luck in draft, I guess
06:18:08 <coppro> but skill is a far greater component
06:18:12 <ais523> e.g. if you get an SD Garchomp or whatever, the opponent is very unlikely to have a counter in their small team
06:18:28 <ais523> drafting works well in M:tG, but only because the packs are so large and because a card can't win singlehandedly
06:18:36 <ais523> it wouldn't work in Pokémon
06:19:14 <coppro> You'd need to establish conditions on movesets too - you could certainly do it if the 'packs' were built from a number of preconstructed pokemon, for instance
06:19:36 <zzo38> I have other rules too for a multiplayer similar to Pokemon: That the gender is based on the total of the IVs (or the EVs, if you want) whether it is even or odd, and you are allowed to deduct one in order to increase the bet.
06:19:44 <ais523> that's how it's done in battle factory
06:20:00 <ais523> zzo38: gender doesn't work like that since 3rd gen
06:20:16 <ais523> but it /is/ related to the IVs and nature, at least for legendaries with a random gender
06:20:22 <ais523> which is, umm, Heatran and nothing else
06:20:58 <zzo38> ais523: I mean to make it like that during the tournament. You can switch the gender between odd/even by betting an IV. And this changes many other things too, please.
06:21:10 <ais523> gender is almost irrelevant in competitive Pokémon
06:21:18 <ais523> because Attract is incredibly weak as a move, as is Captivate
06:21:19 <coppro> also zzo38, what is Riichi?
06:21:21 <ais523> and it doesn't affect anything else
06:21:28 <zzo38> (To be specific, three things at once: bet, IV, and gender.)
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06:22:07 <zzo38> coppro: Riichi is a rule in mahjong that you can lock your hand (it can no longer be adjusted) and bet 1000 additional points (given to the winner), if you manage to win, you get 1 han yaku and ura dora.
06:22:34 <coppro> zzo38: oh, thanks for clearing that up then
06:22:45 <coppro> ais523: it /could/ be relevant in a very low-grade battle with Cute Charm
06:23:23 <ais523> coppro: except that everything that gets Cute Charm gets something better as well
06:23:32 <ais523> e.g. the Cleffa line would be insane to not use Magic Guard
06:23:44 <coppro> ais523: oh, everything? never mind then
06:24:01 <zzo38> ais523: Again, it would be in Limited (draft) mode, as well as low starting PP. And you could adjust many other things in order to make everything to work together.
06:24:25 <ais523> err, except Wigglytuff, who has no other optoin
06:24:42 <ais523> Lopunny's only used for its alternate ability, likewise Delcatty
06:24:53 <ais523> and Magic Guard is amazingly better on Clefable
06:25:12 <ais523> zzo38: actually, you seem to assume PP is unimportant at the full level
06:25:13 <ais523> it isn't
06:25:24 <ais523> I've won tens of games via PP stalling
06:25:45 <ais523> reducing starting PP would basically make stall an unusable tactic
06:25:49 <zzo38> ais523: I don't assume PP is unimportant.
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06:26:44 <zzo38> And there is also items you get also with tournament money and drafting, such as ether.
06:26:51 <ais523> zzo38: wanting PP reduction sounds like you're assuming it's too high
06:26:53 <zzo38> And weather.
06:27:11 <ais523> and weather is overpowered enough just on a move or autoinduce ability
06:27:16 <ais523> putting it on an item would be completely broken
06:27:21 <zzo38> ais523: It is a bit too high because often you use the same move all the time.
06:27:41 <ais523> zzo38: only sweepers do that, and only very rarely
06:27:49 <ais523> in fact, they often switch out just to change move, because of Choice items
06:28:20 <ais523> you're probably too used to playing against an AI that doesn't switch all the time
06:29:10 <zzo38> I am talking about changing so many things that it then becomes almost an entirely different game.
06:29:21 <coppro> ais523: why would you want to use Klutz?
06:29:48 <ais523> to protect yourself from enemies swapping items onto you
06:29:54 <ais523> and to let you swap detrimental items onto them
06:30:02 <coppro> ah
06:30:15 <ais523> protection from detrimental items is important enough to make me seriously consider running Mail on a Pokémon competitively
06:30:31 <ais523> although Leftovers are likely better
06:34:11 <zzo38> By adding riichi, limited draft, low PP, many new move sets, dora indicators, rule changes per different tournaments, betting, odd/even gender with IV, item use, redouble, en passan, hit wicket, complex numbers...
06:35:09 <quintopia> logarithms
06:35:13 <quintopia> definitely logarithms
06:39:38 <zzo38> And yakitori penalties, long match with many battles, each with a few rule changes applied, declare the innings closed, hex grid, cards to be used to select rules before each battle, promotion, river, imbalance betting...
06:41:20 <zzo38> Do you know how these things are going to work in this game?
06:41:36 <ais523> most of them, no
06:41:45 <zzo38> ais523: Can you guess?
06:41:58 <ais523> zzo38: it seems like you're planning to make it into a tactical game, though, where the Pokémon have a position on a grid
06:42:11 <ais523> so it'd be more like Pokémon Mystery Dungeon than the main series of games
06:43:35 <zzo38> But everything in these messages, I have listed some things, what things would you understand most and what suggestion, changes, question, confusing, go crazy, play game?
06:44:15 <ais523> I'd say it wouldn't really be Pokémon any more
06:44:33 <zzo38> ais523: Also, it is 2 or 3 players game. Each game itself (no prior construction or things are permitted, like in Magic: the Gathering limited booster drafts).
06:44:58 <zzo38> ais523: Yes it isn't Pokemon game any more, it is new game with some similarities but almost completely different.
06:46:13 <ais523> I suspect Pokémon would be more popular
06:46:37 <zzo38> And it is strictly multiplayer. No single player mode is permitted.
06:48:07 <zzo38> You need to add dora indicators, like mahjong has, and Washizu mahjong, and betting like you can do in poker, even, and so on.
06:50:14 <zzo38> Most people don't like Test cricket because it is not exciting. Pachinko with digital display is trying to make more exciting, but actually what it does is it gets in the way of the ball!
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06:50:28 <zzo38> Do you agree with me about this?
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06:54:19 <zzo38> What is your opinion about "Most people don't like Test cricket because it is not exciting. Pachinko with digital display is trying to make more exciting, but actually what it does is it gets in the way of the ball!"?
06:56:39 <ais523> zzo38: I think that sort of sport is better watched on TV, in a stadium you're too far from the action to really see what's going on
06:59:19 <zzo38> ais523: Whether it is on TV or not, I think Test cricket has better strategy (as well as simpler rules) but most people don't like it because it is not exciting. Other people like the game with the crowd screaming 100x loud and with fire, played in such a short time that you can't do anything important.
06:59:21 <pikhq> ais523: That's actually true of a lot of spectator sports.
06:59:33 <pikhq> ais523: I think it telling that spectator sports only really took off with TV.
07:00:43 <pikhq> zzo38: hątinnko is only exciting if you think funneling your cash directly into the yakusà is exciting.
07:02:21 <zzo38> pikhq: I prefer with my own pachinko game, no digital display getting in the way of the ball (only the pins and holes affect the game), and nudging permitted.
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07:05:31 <zzo38> pikhq: Regardless of TV or not! Most people like to watch loud game with not enough time for important strategy, and with exciting to them, and they don't like to watch Test cricket.
07:06:02 <pikhq> zzo38: I note that chess is not a spectator sport.
07:06:09 <pikhq> :)
07:06:38 <zzo38> pikhq: Well, yes. Mostly, anyways. Some people do watch a chess match. But it is irrelevant.
07:07:43 <pikhq> Yeah, but it's not exactly a big thing.
07:10:07 <zzo38> But I note that I am not talking about chess. I am talking about Test cricket. It can be watched by spectators in the stadium or on television (I don't actually know how often you actually see it on television).
07:10:38 <pikhq> My point is just that chess is another strategic game that people don't usually watch.
07:11:11 <zzo38> pikhq: OK. Now I understand your point.
07:14:54 <zzo38> But, still! Even if it is the cricket game, there is different kind. Test cricket is the longest kind, and simplest kind, and the strategic kind.
07:15:27 <zzo38> Many people like to watch the short game with loud crowd talking and lots of fire and complicated rules but no strategy.
07:16:52 <zzo38> Have you ever watched a cricket game? I have never, but I still prefer Test cricket.
07:19:27 <zzo38> However, with chess it is different. There are many chess variants, some simple and some complicated, taking various amount of time to play, some with different board and equipment, but still just as good and strategic game.
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07:55:02 <zzo38> Did you know in Pokemon Pearl you can pass your turn in a trainer battle with a pokeball? And you will not lose the pokeball by doing so.
07:55:16 <pikhq> ... Huh.
07:55:39 <pikhq> So, you can't ever suffer from zugzwang in Pokémon Pearl.
07:55:59 <pikhq> (note: I'm not sure that can come up, anyways)
07:56:12 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes. In trainer battles in single-player mode, you cannot be zugzwang.
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08:02:28 <pikhq> Just Pearl?
08:09:05 <zzo38> pikhq: In Red, you will lose a pokeball from doing that, I think. In other games, I don't know.
08:09:41 <pikhq> Of course, in Red you can have 2^8-1 pokeballs at will.
08:09:57 <pikhq> Except in combat.
08:12:38 <ais523> pikhq: zugzwang definitely exists at least in multiplayer
08:12:45 <ais523> final Pokémon PP stall is the classic example
08:12:54 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, but the AI is retarded.
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08:14:59 <ais523> PP stalls can happen in single-player too, I suppose, but only by mistake
08:17:13 <zzo38> ais523: You can't use pokeballs in multiplayer!
08:17:51 <zzo38> It is usable only in single-player mode, although their effect varies depending on wild or trainer.
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08:29:34 <zzo38> Which is better, Magic Set Editor or TeXnicard? Any comment about the license at the top of this file? http://sprunge.us/DadR
08:31:00 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions for the Patterns and/or for the English?
08:37:29 <zzo38> Or what specials could be supported?
08:40:44 <zzo38> .cards -> .tex,.mf; .mf -> .tfm,.*gf; .tex,.tfm -> .dvi; .dvi,.*gf -> .miff and ImageMagick command-line sequences; .miff -> .png
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10:13:53 <Ilari> Hit another site that doesn't work due to bad IPv6 routing...
10:47:26 <Ilari> 3.02 /8s in APNIC pool (about 1 /8 to go...)
10:50:02 <Ilari> 10 986 240 addresses this month...
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13:06:45 <Phantom_Hoover> That's not a very good sign.
13:07:33 <Vorpal> indeed
13:08:33 -!- ineiros has joined.
13:11:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, joined and left?
13:11:13 <Phantom_Hoover> MC is crashing for some reason.
13:11:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what error?
13:11:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't remember. Probably NullPointerException.
13:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to be mcmap.
13:13:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, try again without it?
13:13:23 <Vorpal> or was that what you did?
13:14:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: it's not mcmap.
13:14:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, still fails?
13:15:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, were you near 4000,4000 ?
13:15:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I had the same issue there yesterday evening, had to get ineiros to remove my player files
13:15:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
13:15:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I was crafting TNT up there, placed it back in inventory. then crash
13:15:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe the map around there contains some invalid data or something
13:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming that my inventory is gone, then?
13:16:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it will be when you get reset yes
13:16:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not much to do about that
13:16:15 <Phantom_Hoover> FFF
13:16:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which is why you offload to chests often
13:16:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, can you do something for me?
13:16:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not going up to that place if that is what you want
13:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Check the chests in the ROU and Mt. Hoover; if there's 20-odd gunpowder there, it's OK.
13:17:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, can do ROU, mt. hoover is too far
13:17:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, this crash is due to you.
13:17:29 <Phantom_Hoover> You owe me one.
13:19:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not due to me. Due to notch failing at coding
13:19:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no gunpowder up in ROU
13:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm.
13:19:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm pretty sure I offloaded at Mt. Hoover anyway.
13:19:58 <Phantom_Hoover> The string, though...
13:21:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, presumably you could patch mcmap to filter the "offending" message
13:21:53 <Phantom_Hoover> What "offending" message?
13:22:03 <fizzie> The ineiros-quit had more to do with our shell-server doing "Broadcast message from root (pts/93) (Fri Dec 17 14:45:44 2010): Security fixes. The system is going DOWN for reboot in 15 minutes!" than anything else.
13:24:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, don't know, probably the last one before it crashes?
13:24:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if it was caused by buggy crafting then presumably something related an item
13:25:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or you could inject a message that sends /spawn at the start?
13:25:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hopefully you move before client disconnects
13:25:58 <Phantom_Hoover> mcmap still connects, FWIW.
13:26:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes and?
13:26:12 <Phantom_Hoover> But how to inject the signal there is beyond me.
13:26:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, *using mcmap*!
13:26:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm sure fizzie can tell you approx where it is handled
13:26:56 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, help!
13:27:10 <Vorpal> presumably it has two message loops. One that handles server->client and one that handles client->server
13:27:32 <fizzie> It has one bit of code for both, but there's a variable you can test for the direction.
13:28:06 <fizzie> main.c proxy_thread is the main message-forward loop, or just in main if you want to inject some immediately-after-connection initial stuff.
13:28:20 <fizzie> (Though it might be better to do that only after the handshake messages have been passed.)
13:28:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm.
13:29:23 <nooga> what are you
13:29:28 <nooga> doing?
13:29:46 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, would you outline how I'd patch it to make it send "/spawn" once the connection is made?
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13:31:36 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well... in main.c:proxy_thread, add in the switch a case PACKET_HANDSHAKE: if (cfg->client_to_server) { /* code to write a "/spawn" command */ }.
13:32:16 <fizzie> As for constructing a packet, there aren't any helper functions yet for that, since I don't make from scratch any packets yet.
13:33:43 <fizzie> But basically the /* code */ part would be: unsigned char bytes[] = { /* bytes for the proper packet */ }; packet_t p = { .id = PACKET_CHAT; .size = sizeof bytes; .bytes = bytes }; packet_write(sto, &p);
13:33:58 <fizzie> Uh, commas instead of semicolons in the initializer list.
13:35:01 <fizzie> And for the /* bytes */ part, maybe { PACKET_CHAT, 0x00, 0x06, '/', 's', 'p', 'a', 'w', 'n' } would do.
13:36:02 <fizzie> That's assuming both client and server send a PACKET_HANDSHAKE; I'm not sure if that's actually the case. I think they do.
13:36:14 <fizzie> If not, use PACKET_LOGIN for the triggering instead.
13:41:58 <nooga> what the hell?
13:42:06 <nooga> MC proxy?
13:42:35 <fizzie> It's an automap.
13:42:55 <fizzie> Being abused for something else here.
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13:46:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, does the bytes array include the package id?
13:46:18 <fizzie> Yes.
13:46:30 <fizzie> Actually you don't need to include it in packet_t for writing.
13:47:03 <fizzie> Since packet_write just writes .size bytes out of the .bytes array.
13:47:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, how many bytes is the packet id?
13:47:17 <fizzie> One.
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13:50:50 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, OK, copying in that code now.
13:53:18 <fizzie> What the what.
13:54:34 <fizzie> When the client sends a 0x0d packet (position+look), the fields are (in order) {X, Y, stance, Z, yaw, pitch, ground}; when the server sends that (with the same ID), the fields are {X, stance, Y, Z, yaw, pitch, ground}.
13:54:46 <fizzie> So the Y/stance fields are swapped, even though the packet ID is identical.
13:55:20 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, testing it...
13:55:50 <Phantom_Hoover> "Disconnected by server: protocol error."
13:55:58 <fizzie> Hheh. Hmm.
13:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Use PACKET_LOGIN instead of PACKET_HANDSHAKE?
13:56:36 <fizzie> You can try, but then it'd be even earlier in the session.
13:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Still a protocol error...
13:56:55 <fizzie> Of course my chat packet might be malformed, but I don't think it should.
13:56:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I made a typo somewhere...
13:57:44 <fizzie> Well, um. You can try using PACKET_SPAWN instead of PACKET_HANDSHAKE.
13:57:55 <fizzie> That's the "set spawn position" packet, you should receive one of those at the start of the session.
13:58:44 <Phantom_Hoover> PACKET_SPAWN undeclared.
13:58:54 <fizzie> I may use a different name, a sec.
13:59:03 <fizzie> PACKET_SPAWN_POSITION, sorry.
13:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Trying that...
14:00:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, saw you join at least
14:00:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It just crashed again.
14:00:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, say something else?
14:00:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what if you reconnects, maybe it updated your position just before it crashed
14:01:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I can still see what you say, BtW.
14:01:33 <fizzie> Another thing you can try (I'm not too hopeful) is to filter out all unnecessary packet types, in the hope that the crash is caused by one of those.
14:01:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did it work now?
14:02:01 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
14:02:04 <Vorpal> hm
14:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I've set it to say "aspawn", so check if that gets through.
14:02:21 * Vorpal waits
14:02:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nop.
14:02:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sure you sent it in the right direction?
14:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Didn't even get the MoTD this time.
14:03:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, to the server I mean
14:03:16 <fizzie> if (cfg->client_to_server) { ... } should make it send it to the server.
14:03:46 <Vorpal> hm
14:03:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, could try sending as soon as you get motd from server
14:04:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I think something else was wrong that time.
14:04:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Anything get through?
14:05:07 <Phantom_Hoover> If not, the message-sending code is the problem.
14:05:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nothing through indeed
14:05:40 <fizzie> You could add a fprintf(stderr, "I SPOKE\n"); in there to make sure it gets executed.
14:05:48 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH, the error has fixed itself so I live.
14:07:27 <Vorpal> if it was some broken item on the ground I assume it timed out now
14:07:43 <Vorpal> (wouldn't do that unless the chunk is loaded)
14:08:12 <fizzie> If it was indeed item-related, you could have fixed it by filtering out all the entity-related packets in the server→client stream, those are mostly "useless" in the sense that you should be able to play normally without those.
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14:10:32 <fizzie> Eh, looked at the map; it used to be mostly a neat + shape (with some irregularities), but now it's a weird misshapen critter shape.
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14:33:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so which do you choose?
14:33:46 <fizzie> "He chose... poorly."
14:35:25 <fizzie> (I may have "jumped the gun" there a bit.)
14:44:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, he was griefing yesterday. I just hope it didn't mess it up again, a bit annoying to go check at 4000,4000...
14:49:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, the lines in mcmap thing happens when you are far enough away from spawn
14:49:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, say, 1000 or 2000
14:49:41 <Vorpal> for both coords
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15:19:17 <quintopia> fizzie: matlab has a built-in perceptron algorithm, yes?
15:24:33 <Ilari> Hah... Run into some stuff mentioning IPv6 depletion modeling... :-)
15:25:05 <Ilari> Model timescale: 50-100 years (and those models might not even run into full exhaustion...)
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15:34:13 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, incidentally, what Vorpal considers "grieving" is "putting some lava right at the bottom of a hole to bedrock to make it more interesting, then removing the water added to get rid of said lava".
15:35:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, a hole I made for jumping into from the top of the marker.
15:35:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, not fun to end up burning
15:35:52 <Vorpal> it's just annoying
15:40:33 <fizzie> quintopia: The Neural Network toolbox has. I'm not sure how standard a component that is.
15:40:50 <quintopia> ah
15:41:07 <quintopia> i think it's one of the toolboxes you can install with the a version
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15:42:49 <fizzie> Octave-Forge has a clone, but (at least in the versions I've tried) it's a bit unfinished and broken. (And of course only works in Octave.)
15:43:31 <fizzie> Doing MATLAB/Octave polyglot code is not very much fun, or so I hear.
15:44:13 <quintopia> can't see why it would be
15:45:01 <fizzie> Well, they're meant to be compatible up to a degree, but it's full of quirks.
15:47:48 <fizzie> One of my favourite MATLAB quirks: logspace(a, b, n) returns a vector of n points from 10^a to 10^b (already a bit strange with the exponentiation), except that if b equals pi (either the closest possible double or float), then it's from 10^a to pi.
15:48:10 <fizzie> (a being equal to pi doesn't do anything special, of course.)
15:48:35 <quintopia> that...why would they do that?
15:48:57 <fizzie> (Er, the points are also logarithmically spaced, but that's not strange.)
15:49:29 <fizzie> >> type logspace
15:49:31 <fizzie> ...
15:49:33 <fizzie> if d2 == pi || d2 == single(pi) d2 = log10(d2);
15:49:33 <fizzie> end
15:49:45 <quintopia> yeah uh
15:49:47 <fizzie> Whoops, a newline disappeared in the paste.
15:49:50 <quintopia> still makes no sense
15:50:26 <fizzie> Yes, but they've kept that for the past ten years or so for backwards compatibility.
15:56:49 <fizzie> Another thing: in normal expression, "a && b" is a short-circuiting overall logical 'and' while "a & b" is a non-short-circuiting elementwise logical 'and'... except when used in the conditional of an "if" statement, in which & works as &&.
15:58:04 <fizzie> >> 0 && fprintf('x\n');
15:58:04 <fizzie> >> 0 & fprintf('x\n');
15:58:04 <fizzie> x
15:58:04 <fizzie> >> if 0 && fprintf('x\n'); 0; end;
15:58:04 <fizzie> >> if 0 & fprintf('x\n'); 0; end;
15:58:07 <fizzie> >>
15:58:31 <fizzie> (The whole "fprintf can be called without a fid too" thing is also a bit bizarre.)
15:59:52 <fizzie> The magic in & and if stops if it's "deeper" in the expression:
15:59:54 <fizzie> >> if ~(0 & fprintf('x\n')); 0; end;
15:59:54 <fizzie> x
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16:09:44 <elliott> 21:55:38 <ais523> proof is that I beat the final, bonus boss of Pokémon HeartGold with a team of level 5, unevolved Pokémon
16:09:47 <elliott> :D
16:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Proof of what?
16:10:19 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Proof that evilution is a LIE.
16:11:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that pokemon AI is bad
16:11:11 <elliott> 22:02:26 <ais523> TLUL: no asking for ROMs/crack data on Freenode, it's against the rules
16:11:21 <elliott> ais523: um that is not a rule we follow very strictly here :D
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16:14:52 <elliott> 22:14:53 <coppro> The online gaming still interests me a little
16:14:53 <elliott> 22:15:03 <coppro> but I find that it's still getting too ridiculous
16:15:09 <elliott> coppro: i'm going to assume that you just keep saying it's ridiculous and silly throughout the entire log without elaborating on it
16:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what's ridiculous in the world of coppro?
16:16:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pokemon, or rather it's "getting" silly and ridiculous
16:16:33 <Phantom_Hoover> They sold out when it got popular.
16:17:14 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Another thing: in normal expression, "a && b" is a short-circuiting overall logical 'and' while "a & b" is a non-short-circuiting elementwise logical 'and'... except when used in the conditional of an "if" statement, in which & works as &&. <-- apart from the "except ..." bit that matches C
16:17:18 <Vorpal> kind of
16:17:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "sold out"? has pokemon ever /not/ been popular? has it ever /not/ been hugely commercial?
16:17:25 <Vorpal> (& is bitwise as well there)
16:17:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Jesus, do I have to add ":P" to every blatantly sarcastic comment I make?
16:17:45 <elliott> Vorpal: so I've fried my GPU! (nearly)
16:17:56 <Vorpal> elliott, why
16:18:00 <Vorpal> elliott, and how
16:18:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: #esoteric tradition (at least if you ask ais523) to annoy people by ignoring obvious sarcasm
16:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, that thing.
16:18:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Far rendering distance + fancy rendering + Better Light mod + Better Grass mod (ok so that doesn't really use any processing power) + 128x128 texture pack.
16:18:49 <elliott> Vorpal: (1) SO PRETTY (2) SO SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
16:18:57 <Vorpal> elliott, but did it overheat?
16:19:00 <fizzie> The "except" bit is the only strange bit.
16:19:07 <elliott> Vorpal: No, but it doesn't like me any more.
16:19:19 <Vorpal> elliott, what?
16:19:28 <elliott> fizzie: Can I push feature additions to mcmap, too? You said bugfixes were okay.
16:19:33 <Vorpal> elliott, are you getting the GPU equiv. of a sad map?
16:19:34 <elliott> Vorpal: We are no longer friends.
16:19:35 <Vorpal> err
16:19:37 <Vorpal> sad mac*
16:19:40 <fizzie> If they make sense.
16:19:46 <Vorpal> elliott, in what way?
16:19:48 <elliott> Vorpal: The GPU equivalent of a "Hey look, you can't turn around any more!"
16:19:56 <elliott> Or you can, but IT'LL TAKE FIVE MINUTES
16:20:12 <Vorpal> elliott, right, but if you go back to normal mc it will presumably work again?
16:20:16 <elliott> Vorpal: By the way: Better Light mod: *highly* recommended.
16:20:19 <elliott> Vorpal: It just looks better.
16:20:27 <elliott> (Does lighting smarter, and smooths it out.)
16:20:34 <elliott> And yes, it will, but I'm blinded by the pretty.
16:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, so not using your 1x1 pack?
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16:21:04 <elliott> Vorpal: I decided to make Minecraft as HD as I could to kill my GPU.
16:21:06 <elliott> This is the result :P
16:21:14 <elliott> Vorpal: But I recommend Better Light anyway, no matter what the texture pack. It's really good.
16:21:31 <elliott> Everything just looks so smoother.
16:21:39 <elliott> Especially where blocks meet the ground.
16:22:10 <Vorpal> elliott, does it not require patching mc iirc
16:22:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, but it has its own patcher program. And it saves a backup.
16:22:29 <elliott> So you just run a .jar, tick Better Light, and click Patch. :p
16:22:44 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, guess what!
16:22:51 <fizzie> Re feature additions, if you're unsure you can always just push an "elliott" branch, then I can merge/reimplement them if they don't conform to my Vision(tm).
16:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> MrMPatcher.jar fails for me!
16:23:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe it doesn't like you.
16:23:16 <elliott> fizzie: Oh no, I'm never unsure.
16:23:23 <elliott> fizzie: I'm just going to add things like scaling the map :P
16:23:43 <elliott> fizzie: And maybe some command to print out coordinates of all blocks of the given values within a certain radius.
16:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, urgh.
16:24:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What?
16:24:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It's complaining about some Swing thing.
16:24:29 <oerjan> <zzo38> What is your opinion about "Most people don't like Test cricket because it is not exciting. Pachinko with digital display is trying to make more exciting, but actually what it does is it gets in the way of the ball!"?
16:24:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I really don't want to try and figure out your Java install. :p
16:24:45 <fizzie> Well, I may still end up reimplementing them if they don't conform to what I think is nice. But public is public, of course.
16:24:53 <elliott> fizzie: You know, the clone URLs look awfully "Read-Only" to me.
16:25:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, a nice feature for the map would be ground altitude mode. I'm looking for any mountain near where I am (it is fairly flat within the area I can see in MC itself)
16:25:12 <elliott> I wonder why fizzie stores all his program options in a struct.
16:25:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Write it and you get to use it. :p
16:25:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, not urgent in any way, but would be nice
16:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> My java is STILL in the iron grip of the FSF.
16:25:42 <oerjan> it's a shame david morgan-mar isn't a part of the community, he's the only other big cricket fan esolanger i know...
16:25:48 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah, I didn't demand the feature, just thought it might be a nice idea
16:25:50 <elliott> oerjan: only /other/?
16:25:58 <oerjan> than zzo38...
16:26:04 <elliott> oh
16:26:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I'm rather surprised that he's never been seen here.
16:26:21 <fizzie> I don't really know about github, it's supposed to be public. Possibly you need to be logged in though.
16:26:27 <elliott> fizzie: I am.
16:26:39 <fizzie> I'll take a look after dinner.
16:26:40 <elliott> fizzie: I don't think you can do an "outright public" thing though.
16:26:53 <elliott> You could just add me as a committer, and everyone else too. :
16:26:53 <elliott> :p
16:26:59 <fizzie> Maybe. I'll check.
16:27:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: from his iwc forum i understand that he is rather busy with his other projects, his job, and his wife
16:27:15 <fizzie> A topo-map is something I was going to do myself.
16:27:16 <elliott> The Arc anarki guys had it done but IIRC that was a special GitHub-done thing.
16:27:30 <fizzie> There's already a tracked heightmap for surface-map.
16:27:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes indeed. Btw what was the enum thingy with packet sizes
16:28:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, I didn't look into detail at it, but it looked rather confusing
16:28:15 <fizzie> The sizes aren't fixed.
16:28:21 <fizzie> But there's a list of formats.
16:28:29 <fizzie> For decoding them.
16:28:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes but why did you make an enum per packet type (as far as I could tell)
16:28:50 <fizzie> It's just a list of field types there.
16:29:02 <fizzie> It's an array per packet type.
16:29:09 <fizzie> (An array of enum values.)
16:29:11 <Vorpal> oh right
16:29:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't typedef your stuff
16:29:17 <Vorpal> right
16:30:03 <fizzie> I don't tend to typedef. Can't recall why I did for packet_t; maybe I was going to keep that opaque.
16:30:11 <elliott> fizzie: Out of curiosity, why /do/ you have opt be a struct?
16:30:40 <fizzie> Just as a sort of a namespace-prefix-thing.
16:30:48 <fizzie> Away for now; food.
16:30:52 <elliott> fizzie: Okay. Why are they gints and gchars rather than ints and chars?
16:30:53 <elliott> Wait.
16:30:55 <elliott> Don't answer that.
16:30:58 <elliott> The answer is probably horribly glib.
16:31:07 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, swat!¬
16:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> s/¬//
16:33:19 <Vorpal> elliott, gio!
16:33:26 <Vorpal> elliott, he uses async gio stuff
16:33:35 <Vorpal> I'm not sure why
16:33:40 <oerjan> swat! not, ok
16:33:41 <Vorpal> unless it is threaded
16:33:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, I can tell that it's utterly awful code made by someone with a deranged, pitiful GNU mind.
16:33:47 <elliott> But I'm sure I can hack it. :p
16:33:59 <elliott> Maybe I'll fork it and remove all traces of things starting with g.
16:35:19 <fizzie> It's not "async gio stuff", it's normally blocking gio stuff.
16:35:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, I saw the word async somewhere!
16:36:02 <elliott> fizzie: It's still gio.
16:36:04 <elliott> Why god why.
16:36:07 <fizzie> And remember the "no bitching" thing?
16:36:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I did not bitch
16:36:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, I just noticed the fact
16:36:59 <elliott> fizzie: Well, Vorpal was already flagrantly violating it, so why not. :p
16:37:10 <Vorpal> elliott, how so?
16:37:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, discovered new strangeness with MC water physics
16:37:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, built a rig near the snow/lava thingy near spawn
16:38:28 <Vorpal> (it is a bit hard to explain without testing it)
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16:47:14 <elliott> oerjan: 23:16:52 <zzo38> Have you ever watched a cricket game? I have never, but I still prefer Test cricket.
16:47:16 <elliott> oerjan: told you
16:48:06 <oerjan> very zzo
16:50:50 <elliott> oerjan: zzo is very zzo? you don't say!
16:51:01 <oerjan> which leads to a philosophical question: does this information reduce the number of cricket fan esolangers by one or not
16:51:46 <oerjan> *of known
16:53:35 <oerjan> the issue being, while most people wouldn't be considered fans of games they don't watch, most people wouldn't prefer a game they don't watch either
16:55:12 <oerjan> hm or what is the probability that zzo38 has _played_ test cricket without watching it...
17:11:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://imgur.com/7U4xZ.png
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17:12:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, Christ, that's unsettling.
17:13:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You even have realistic-ish hair, moulded into a CUBE.
17:13:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, SIGABRT
17:13:28 <Vorpal> (strange)
17:14:08 <elliott> Does SDL_BlitSurface have any kind of scaling parameter?
17:16:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, strange, but it crashed for all of us
17:16:25 <elliott> It was your nagging.
17:17:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: I abort() when things go wrong. That should be replaced with a __FILE__ + __LINE__ -enabled die() macro.
17:17:33 <fizzie> Or proper error handling, but that's for "queers".
17:17:44 <elliott> And fags.
17:18:02 <fizzie> And cigars.
17:18:04 <elliott> fizzie: I curse you -- in a non-bitching way -- for using SDL_BlitSurface, which does not support scaling.
17:18:15 <elliott> Let's see about this SDL scaling nonsense.
17:18:21 <elliott> SDL_Surface* SDL_ScaleSurface(SDL_Surface* Surface, Uint16 Width, Uint16 Height);
17:18:25 <elliott> OK, that doesn't seem too bad.
17:18:42 <fizzie> That's what you, you know, use, for drawing, in SDL.
17:18:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm also the line thing seems related to underground lava
17:18:55 <elliott> fizzie: Will you kill me if -s chooses how many blocks to show, not the pixelles?
17:18:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, when you get below-surface stuff first
17:19:02 <elliott> So -s 10x10 -x 5 is actually 50x50.
17:19:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, then some lava, then that spreads, and the spreading lines are left after it loads it properly
17:19:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, at least it looks like that
17:19:45 <fizzie> elliott: I don't have an opinion on that, either way is just fine. I'd think it'd still be easier just to have -s define the SetVideoMode numbers, though.
17:20:02 <elliott> fizzie: Totally! Except for the fact that then the blitting becomes more complicated.
17:20:54 <fizzie> Well, I would hope the blitting will handle non-integral window sizes for the resizable-window mode anyway. (If only by leaving partial blocks unblitted.)
17:21:10 <fizzie> Non-integral in this context == non-multiple-of-block-size.
17:21:20 <elliott> fizzie: I believe that, in this case, it would end up stretching it.
17:21:49 <elliott> fizzie: Is accessing opt. outside of main.c verboten?
17:22:53 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, just aborted again.
17:22:54 <fizzie> If you're going to call the SDL tutorial's SDL_ScaleSurface in map_draw, it might be a performance issue; that thing is slow as anything.
17:22:58 <fizzie> (And also C++.)
17:23:21 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, they actually wrote it theirself.
17:23:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: It could be spreading-related; if the server sends spreading lava with the multisetblock thing, I might easily be decoding that wrong.
17:23:26 <elliott> fizzie: Grmbl. Okay. New idea.
17:23:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
17:23:36 <elliott> fizzie: Is it okay if your map structure sort of kind of doesn't have a 1:1 mapping to blocks?
17:23:39 <elliott> i.e. I handle the scaling her.
17:23:40 <elliott> *there.
17:23:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I'll convert the abort()s into a proper die() now.
17:24:13 <elliott> fizzie: I'll take that as a yes.
17:24:39 <fizzie> elliott: You implement it the way you want, I'll let you know if it's okay afterwards. (If you want to have the "map" bitmap scaled, that's just fine, though then it'll end up taking N*N times more memory.)
17:24:53 <elliott> fizzie: It will, but it'll also be ~fast.
17:25:27 <elliott> fizzie: Um, I have to touch map_update, don't I.
17:25:35 <fizzie> Yes, that's where it's drawn.
17:25:42 <elliott> That function looks like it's going to eat me.
17:25:45 <elliott> As a grue.
17:26:28 <elliott> Okay I will ASSUME that cz and cx are the relevant things to scale.
17:26:54 <elliott> fizzie: But, just to check -- no "opt." outside of mainc.?
17:26:55 <elliott> *main.c?
17:27:08 <fizzie> Let's see, with -x 5 and a 400x400 block map (the smallest possible thing, since that's what you get without moving) you'll have a 15M bitmap. For the awful case where you visit spawn and (4000,4000), it's going to be 1.5 gigabytes.
17:27:35 <fizzie> I don't really have a firm opinion on opt. either, you can move it to some sort of common.h if you want.
17:27:58 <fizzie> (In fact I'll put the die macro there.)
17:28:00 <elliott> fizzie: Got a better idea that isn't horribly slow?
17:28:26 <fizzie> Not sure. In the optimal case I'd just scale with opengl, but that'd need a SDL → OpenGL switch in drawing.
17:28:57 <elliott> fizzie: Or just do it all in OpenGL. :p
17:29:08 <fizzie> Yes, that is sort of what I meant.
17:29:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, even if you start at 4000,4000 you get a bitmap from spawn
17:30:01 <fizzie> Scaling while drawing (with something a bit more elegant than SDL_ScaleSurface -- just do something that does integer scaling factors naively, it's going to be better than the floating-point-math in SDL_ScaleSurface) is probably fast enough for small windows.
17:30:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, at least it draws air over to there
17:30:38 <elliott> fizzie: Scaling doth appear to work, maybe.
17:30:42 <elliott> I'll try a higher factor to see.
17:30:56 <elliott> Oo, or maybe not.
17:30:57 <fizzie> Yes, though that might be avoidable. I'm not sure if it actually sends any chunk packets at 0, I just initialize the maps like that.
17:31:03 <fizzie> (That was to Vorpal.)
17:31:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
17:31:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, but it isn't using 1.5 GB
17:31:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, mcmap that is
17:31:36 <fizzie> No, that was with 5*5 block-size scaling.
17:31:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch okay
17:31:57 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, zooming is VAGUELY near working!!
17:32:00 <elliott> Vaguely.
17:32:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, might not be viable to do it that way then
17:32:18 <elliott> fizzie: It seems to be trying to fill the whole screen with 1x1s for some reason. Or not quite...
17:32:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe you have to do it manually if you want scaling
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17:39:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh, why not?
17:39:56 <elliott> Vorpal: 1.5 gigs is hardly much.
17:40:12 <elliott> I've allocated Minecraft 2 gigs, and I have 4 gigs; so 1.5 + 2 = 3.5 gigs. I can handle that.
17:40:46 <fizzie> It's not especially elegant, though.
17:41:04 <elliott> fizzie: You'll be pleased to know that it now fails to render anything at all.
17:43:18 <elliott> fizzie: http://imgur.com/Cwzdw.png
17:43:23 <elliott> fizzie: This reminds me of Apple IIs.
17:43:48 <elliott> fizzie: The problem is that you draw it as a 1D array X-D
17:44:37 <fizzie> Just repeat the lines. I don't think my drawing is especially weird, I even recompute all pointers for each row, IIRC.
17:45:10 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, x is left-right and z is up-down in this view,r ight?
17:46:26 <fizzie> Yes, minecraft x = bitmap x, minecraft z = bitmap y.
17:48:41 <elliott> SWEET it segfaults
17:48:58 <elliott> X Error of failed request: BadGC (invalid GC parameter)
17:48:58 <elliott> Major opcode of failed request: 60 (X_FreeGC)
17:48:58 <elliott> Resource id in failed request: 0x4400000
17:48:58 <elliott> Serial number of failed request: 112
17:48:58 <elliott> Current serial number in output stream: 111
17:49:08 <elliott> Are you even /meant/ to get those when using SDL?
17:50:23 <Deewiant> If you use it very incorrectly, I don't see why not
17:50:47 <elliott> for (int bz = 0; bz < CHUNK_ZSIZE*zoom; bz += zoom)
17:50:52 <elliott> Wrapping the innards of this loop in
17:50:54 <elliott> for (int i = 0; i < zoom; i++) {
17:50:57 <elliott> did Not Really Work.
17:51:09 <elliott> ...especially since it'd just overwrite the same pixels
17:52:36 <fizzie> Well, you do need to wrap the Uint32 *p in there too, and the pixels += pitch.
17:52:56 <fizzie> And of course scale the initial "pixels" initialization.
17:53:38 <elliott> fizzie: When I did /that/ it segfaulted.
17:53:39 <elliott> (The latter.)
17:53:55 <elliott> And yes, I wrapped everything up.
17:54:20 <elliott> Segfault ... it appears that I am truly doin' it rong.
17:54:40 <fizzie> Well, you don't want to wrap the blocks += blocks_pitch part in, but you do want the unsigned char *b = blocks bit.
17:54:55 <fizzie> And of course scale the surface size, but I guess you have done that already.
17:55:03 <elliott> fizzie: I think I have. :p
17:55:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, crashed
17:55:10 <elliott> map = SDL_CreateRGBSurface(SDL_SWSURFACE, xs*CHUNK_XSIZE, zs*CHUNK_ZSIZE, 32, rmask, gmask, bmask, 0);
17:55:11 <elliott> NOPE
17:55:20 <Vorpal> elliott, in handle_chunk
17:55:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Aw, mine didn't.
17:55:30 <Vorpal> err
17:55:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Erm, are you telling me to fix a bug?
17:55:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I tried to tab complete line number somehow XD
17:55:49 <Vorpal> elliott, and hit e instead of the number
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19:23:37 <fizzie> Okay, github updated; fixed the "too high update" bug and there's a rudimentary scaled-map mode with some bugs.
19:24:21 <fizzie> (It doesn't compute the "how many fractional blocks there should be at the edges of the screen" value correctly, so the player markers are placed only approximately in the right positions.
19:24:44 <fizzie> They seem to jump around a bit when adjusting the scaling factor. Keys are pgup/pgdown right, might change those later.)
19:24:46 <Deewiant> I note that that's one commit, not two
19:24:59 <fizzie> Yes, I have bad habits like that.
19:25:32 <elliott> See with scapegoat, you could just split it into two commits because of fractal.
19:25:36 <elliott> Also it makes you toast.
19:25:56 <fizzie> In this case I could've just added world.c in a different commit, they were nice and localized.
19:26:03 <Deewiant> With git you could also split it into two commits but that's a bad idea if anybody's pulled it already
19:26:09 <elliott> fizzie: But where's your toast?
19:26:15 <elliott> Deewiant: Go to hell, anti-toast-man.
19:26:16 <fizzie> Oh, you mean, post-datedly. Right.
19:26:23 <Deewiant> I have a toaster.
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19:28:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Rather manually.
19:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Go on.
19:28:23 <fizzie> Curiously enough, the code for scaled map-drawing is shorted than the SDL_BlitSurface one. (Because the scaled map-drawing just loops through the whole screen and skips map-x/z < 0 rows/columns, while the blitting variant computes source and destination rectangles for the (screen, map) intersection-box messily.)
19:29:04 <Gregor> http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/jstep.jpg I win the Internets forever!
19:29:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, you are publishing that please tell me you're publishing that.
19:29:43 <Gregor> X-D
19:29:46 <Gregor> 'fraid not :P
19:29:49 <Gregor> Not per se anyway
19:31:32 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's just a loop over the screen pixels, while doing "if (++m_xo == map_scale) m_xo = 0, m_x++" to repeat each map pixel map_scale times.
19:31:32 <Gregor> Although if you combined the two relevant papers, you'd have something like that :P
19:31:32 <fizzie> (In place of "m_x++", that is.)
19:31:32 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, yes, but what's the control to turn it on?
19:31:32 <fizzie> Ohhh.
19:31:32 <fizzie> Pageup a couple of times, I think.
19:31:32 <fizzie> Or down.
19:31:32 <fizzie> I think up ups the scaling factor, which is... well, illogical, depending on your logic.
19:31:32 <elliott> <Deewiant> elliott: Write programs that do one thing and do it well.
19:31:32 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh come on, git is hardly that.
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19:31:32 <fizzie> (You could think of pageup as "go farther away", in which case it should be the zoom-out key instead of scaling-factor-enlarge key.)
19:31:42 <Deewiant> elliott: No, but my toaster is.
19:31:46 <elliott> fizzie: Yo yo yo does it have -x.
19:31:52 <elliott> Deewiant: Nuh uh. It can also do bagels.
19:32:09 <Deewiant> No it can't.
19:32:15 <fizzie> elliott: Er, no. But that's just "add an option, do map_setscale(xvalue, 0); in main".
19:32:28 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, it can do ... other things.
19:32:32 <Deewiant> No it can't.
19:32:36 <elliott> Deewiant: It can burn your fingers.
19:32:47 <fizzie> (The later is true for relative, false for absolute xvalue.)
19:32:50 <elliott> fizzie: Psht. Fine. I'll do it.
19:32:59 <Deewiant> elliott: That's like saying that 'cat' can cause your disk to run out of space.
19:33:21 <elliott> Deewiant: Indeed.
19:33:29 <fizzie> Well, *my* toaster has three buttons on it!
19:33:43 <elliott> fizzie: What you should do is have three different toasting machines, and plug them into each other.
19:33:45 <fizzie> In addition to the spring-switch-thing.
19:34:29 <fizzie> The buttons are "defrost", "reheat" and "cancel". Oh, and there's also a burning-time control dial.
19:34:44 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever pressed the buttons.
19:35:30 <zzo38> The log is broken.
19:36:38 <zzo38> fizzie: Is there a button for heat one side of the bread only?
19:36:51 <fizzie> No, but maybe you could use one-sided bread somehow.
19:40:00 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, I'd advise you to make clay higher-visibility in map.c.
19:40:57 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I think there should be some sort of more structured colormap handling, maybe customizable ones, or "I'm looking for something" auto-highlights that'd desaturate other blocks and highlight-in-red the one you're looking.
19:41:36 <fizzie> I think I picked something sand-like because I had already a horrible amount of grey-whites for different stones and other white stuff.
19:41:45 <fizzie> But the colors are pretty arbitrary.
19:41:54 <fizzie> And snow/ice looks silly, I think.
19:42:58 <fizzie> It might be that I set snow-cover to air-color, so it doesn't show up in cross-section maps, but that makes snow-covered blocks show up as air in the surface-map, because it only looks for topmost non-air block, not topmost non-air-colored block.
19:44:16 <zzo38> Why is the log broken?
19:53:12 <elliott> where put1 (k,v) = do
19:53:12 <elliott> let kl = fromIntegral (B.length k) :: Word8
19:53:12 <elliott> let vl = fromIntegral (B.length v) :: Word64
19:53:12 <elliott> put (kl::Word8); put k
19:53:12 <elliott> put (vl::Word64); put v
19:53:28 <elliott> oh wait maybe bytestrings have a special serialisation
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20:01:14 <elliott> then error ("HASH COLLISION!! " ++ show o ++ " and " ++ show o' ++
20:01:14 <elliott> " have the same hash! ROCKS FALL, EVERYBODY DIES!")
20:01:18 <elliott> Think my error is scary enough?
20:02:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
20:04:09 <elliott> sweet
20:04:13 <elliott> i have two separate concepts named object
20:10:39 -!- clog has joined.
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20:10:42 <pikhq> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/CwBtv.jpg This screenshot from a channel called, and I quote, "CNN Headline News".
20:10:54 <pikhq> AND JUSTIN BIEBER.
20:10:57 <pikhq> BUT MOSTLY THE NEWS.
20:12:13 <pikhq> elliott: ... Why did I ping you for that?
20:12:18 <pikhq> That's a rant for everyone!
20:13:29 <elliott> pikhq: Actually, that's part of "Showbiz Tonight".
20:13:38 <elliott> Which I don't think anyone claims is real news.
20:13:59 <pikhq> elliott: It's a program on "CNN Headline News".
20:14:20 <pikhq> elliott: I don't care if it's a fucking show about entertainment gossip, it's *claiming to be headline news*.
20:14:39 <Gregor> Just like Ice Road Truckers claims to be History?
20:14:48 <Gregor> And Palin's Alaska claims to be Learning?
20:14:52 <pikhq> Gregor: FUCK THE HISTORY CHANNEL AS WELL.
20:14:57 <pikhq> Gregor: AND TLC.
20:15:15 <Gregor> TLC has been a joke of a channel for years *shrugs*
20:15:28 <pikhq> So's the rest of them.
20:16:02 <Gregor> No, any channel that plays Seinfeld is, ironically, not a joke of a channel for the brief duration during which they play Seinfeld.
20:16:12 <elliott> Gregor: Ice Road Truckers amuses me.
20:16:15 <Gregor> Same goes for STTNG, Corner Gas, Mythbusters ...
20:16:23 <elliott> I can't take it seriously, because I imagine the ice to be, like, miles deep.
20:16:32 <elliott> Wimps.
20:16:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Lasts very short, though.
20:16:51 <elliott> Gregor: How does one pronounced "STTNG"? Stttttng?
20:17:09 <Gregor> elliott: If you haven't coughed up any organs, you're not pronouncing it right.
20:17:14 <elliott> :D
20:17:34 <elliott> pikhq: You know what I should make????? A NEW BUILD SYSTEM
20:17:37 * elliott mauled by bears
20:17:57 <pikhq> It continues to amaze me that there's a few *hundred* channels available, and they're almost all *terrible*.
20:18:12 <elliott> Ha ha, BBC in your face. Okay so most of BBC sucks too.
20:18:15 <elliott> But we got Dirk Gently.
20:18:18 <elliott> TODO: Watch Dirk Gently.
20:18:20 <elliott> Watch it SO HARD.
20:18:27 <pikhq> elliott: YOU BASTARDS.
20:18:36 <elliott> pikhq: Problem? :trollface:
20:18:43 <pikhq> elliott: Though a lot of the BBC sucks, *it actually still has good programming*.
20:19:08 <pikhq> elliott: US channels love to cancel popular shows and rape the premise of the channel.
20:19:16 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if I need to support more than 2^64 objects in a scapegoat database
20:19:26 <elliott> er, wait
20:19:30 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if I need to support more than 2^64 keys in a scapegoat object
20:19:32 <elliott> I THINK NOT
20:19:44 <Gregor> How many US channels have wrestling now? Eight? Ten? Covering comedy, sci-fi, history, education, ...
20:19:46 <pikhq> TLC used to have interesting documentaries. Now, it's The Babies Channel.
20:19:52 <elliott> in fact, i doubt I even need to support more than 256
20:19:59 <zzo38> O! The log is fixed now.
20:20:01 <elliott> pikhq: do you think I need to support more than 256 key/values in a given scapegoat object?
20:20:11 <elliott> I suppose for an author ... if he uses, like, 30 IM services... and has 10 emails...
20:20:15 <elliott> and 20 keys...
20:20:22 <elliott> And has ... uh ...
20:20:26 <elliott> *they use
20:20:28 <pikhq> And "Discovery Health" is soon going to become the "Oprah Winfrey Network".
20:20:31 <pikhq> Yes, a channel for Oprah.
20:20:37 <pikhq> *Oprah*.
20:20:47 <elliott> pikhq: Dude, shut up and answer my question.
20:20:53 <pikhq> (and even now, it's The Babies Channel)
20:21:10 <pikhq> elliott: Bah, support 2^2^64.
20:21:15 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: do you think I need to support more than 256 key/values in a given scapegoat object?
20:21:18 <elliott> That is the question at hand :P
20:21:21 <pikhq> elliott: Bah, support 2^2^64.
20:21:25 <elliott> No.
20:21:41 <pikhq> 2^^^^^2?
20:21:43 <elliott> It's kinda relevant because there are tons of objects in the system and 8-bit vs. 32-bit count is a difference of 3 bytes per object :P
20:21:49 <elliott> (tons = literally tons.)
20:23:04 <zzo38> elliott: What is it that you are making?
20:23:21 <elliott> zzo38: Scapegoat, a version control system.
20:24:22 <zzo38> And what is it that I am making?
20:24:29 <elliott> zzo38: How should I know?
20:25:19 <zzo38> elliott: Maybe you guess. I don't know how you should know.
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20:27:40 <zzo38> What is your opinion about this file so far? http://sprunge.us/DadR
20:27:42 <elliott> hi ais523
20:31:34 <ais523> hi
20:31:44 <zzo38> Do you have opinion about this?
20:31:44 <ais523> hmm, today I learnt that Firefox doesn't respond well to having fonts uninstalled while it's trying to use them
20:31:55 <ais523> as in, it breaks even more horribly than you'd expect
20:32:28 <ais523> (Firefox is also the only application on here that breaks while it's being upgraded; most programs just use the old version until you restart them)
20:32:29 <zzo38> ais523: Why do you uninstall fonts while it is trying to use them? Does it do different depending on the operating system?
20:32:46 <ais523> zzo38: oh, because it was the Microsoft fonts that I'd been meaning to get rid of for a while
20:32:55 <ais523> because things kept using them by default
20:33:07 <ais523> and they decided to update, and the update came with a new EULA I didn't want to accept
20:33:45 <elliott> ais523: hmm, what EULA?
20:33:52 <elliott> the microsoft cor fonts are unrestricted AFAIK
20:33:59 <elliott> http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/
20:34:03 <elliott> and the site hasn't been touched since 2006, so
20:35:15 <ais523> it may have been a repeat of the old one
20:35:25 <ais523> but yes, microsoft core fonts have a license that shouldn't require a EULA
20:35:28 <ais523> which is partly why I declined it
20:41:36 <zzo38> Why should you require Microsoft's fonts anyways? (Except for Windows computer) For other computer you can use it has its own fonts to use in its programs.
20:44:11 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, Postel's law.
20:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.haskell.org/
20:44:53 <Phantom_Hoover> What.
20:45:03 <Deewiant> i
20:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Why has that been domainsquatted.
20:45:17 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Why should Postel's law have something to do with it?
20:45:45 <ais523> zzo38: mostly because everyone assumes you have them
20:45:58 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: Presumably somebody forgot to renew i t
20:46:22 <Deewiant> Works for me, though. Hooray for cacheing.
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20:46:35 <zzo38> ais523: You can still use other fonts as replacement fonts. Whatever fonts of your system should work.
20:46:40 <ais523> indeed
20:46:54 <ais523> what actually annoys me is specifying fonts by name in the first place
20:47:08 <ais523> unless you have a huge list containing fonts for a wide range of operating systems
20:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> How do I make my computer aware of the changes I've made to /etc/hosts?
20:50:57 <Deewiant> It is aware.
20:51:02 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I know Windows will do it right away. In UNIX, I don't know what you need to do.
20:51:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, it is not.
20:51:24 <zzo38> Can you read the man page?
20:51:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I changed it to fix haskell.org, and it's still broken.
20:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, quiet.
20:51:49 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: You might have to restart whatever programs you use that use domain names.
20:52:00 <Deewiant> gethostname() should read /etc/hosts every time.
20:52:44 <Gregor> Many programs cache DNS. In Firefox I'm pretty sure a ctrl+shift+R will force a relookup.
20:56:59 <zzo38> Do you really dislike TeXnicard?
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21:15:59 <elliott> ais523: Our hardware now diverges!
21:17:20 <Phantom_Hoover> :O
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21:26:36 <elliott> Shpx is such a bad curse.
21:31:19 <elliott> ais523: "Programming with Natural Language Is Actually Going to Work" --Stephen Wolfram
21:31:48 <elliott> ais523: (His evidence is Wolfram Alpha, which apparently works just great.0
21:31:50 <elliott> *great.)
21:36:19 <Vorpal> common OOP doesn't go far enough
21:36:21 <Vorpal> elliott, ^
21:36:29 <Vorpal> elliott, terrible data hiding
21:36:29 <elliott> Vorpal: What is it now.
21:36:35 <Vorpal> the most you can do is private
21:36:36 <elliott> Data hiding doesn't work.
21:36:44 <Vorpal> but that still allows the own class to access
21:36:49 <Vorpal> we need a further level
21:36:49 <elliott> Just shut up.
21:37:06 <Vorpal> "secret even to self" doesn't quite cut it
21:37:19 <Vorpal> basically, so that no one can access it
21:37:38 <Vorpal> elliott, and indeed, data hiding doesn't work. Wikileaks proves that.
21:37:39 <elliott> I see.
21:49:28 <pikhq> elliott: Wolfram Alpha, an example of natural language programming working? LOL
21:50:01 <nooga> what
21:50:04 <nooga> working?
21:57:34 <pikhq> I thought it was a good example of how not to do UI design.
21:57:54 <pikhq> Wolfram Alpha would be *much* more useful if you could just tell it *what to an interpret a string as*.
22:00:45 <Vorpal> C++: I'm not sure if templates of multiple inheritance is most awful. They are certainly both horrible
22:02:56 <elliott> Inheritance itself is the most awful.
22:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, yes quite, though the original idea (semantic networks) it is inspired by was sound
22:05:31 <Vorpal> elliott, but doesn't even smalltalk have inheritance iirc?
22:05:45 <elliott> Yes. Alan Kay did not imagine C++ _or_ Smalltalk, as I've said.
22:05:50 <elliott> (When he invented the term OOP.)
22:05:50 <Vorpal> elliott, true
22:06:07 <Vorpal> elliott, so what do you think about semantic networks?
22:06:20 <elliott> I have no opinions on them and don't plan to get any.
22:06:30 <Vorpal> ok
22:06:49 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, surely you agree that smalltalk is less awful than C++?
22:07:05 <elliott> Yes, doesn't stop it being awful though.
22:07:16 <Vorpal> true
22:23:21 <elliott> pikhq: Convince me not to make a build system.
22:25:36 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Odyssey I'm tempted to call this FFXIII.
22:26:59 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: Convince me not to make a build system
22:27:01 <elliott> *system.
22:27:05 <pikhq> elliott: No.
22:27:13 <elliott> pikhq: Whyy.
22:30:40 <elliott> pikhq: You do realise FFXIII exists?
22:30:43 <elliott> from a cursory google :P
22:30:52 <elliott> also XIV
22:31:33 <fizzie> XIV is again one of them mumorpugers, right?
22:32:37 <pikhq> elliott: The real one is painful, and XIV is actually hurting Square a lot.
22:32:51 <pikhq> elliott: Let me put it this way: net profits for Square are down 90% because of *that one game*.
22:32:55 <elliott> Lawl.
22:33:00 <fizzie> One wonders whether they'll give up the naming scheme somewhere around Final Fantasy LXVII.
22:33:16 <pikhq> fizzie: They've already kinda given up on it.
22:33:25 <pikhq> There are like 3 games with the number XIII attached.
22:33:48 <pikhq> FFXIII, FF Agito XIII, FF Versus XIII.
22:33:56 <elliott> pikhq: Phantom_Hoover: http://imgur.com/9g2rZ.png AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH GOD
22:34:00 <elliott> erm *fizzie:
22:34:04 <elliott> GET AWAY FROM ME PIG, HOLY SHIT
22:34:18 <elliott> They stare at you often, but I couldn't get a screenshot of that.
22:34:40 <fizzie> That looks very horrible.
22:35:01 <pikhq> About the only good thing from FFXIV is that it was an excuse for Uematsu to make more music.
22:35:07 <pikhq> FFXIII didn't even have that.
22:35:52 <pikhq> Heck, XIII had only one piece of music based on something Uematsu wrote: the Chocobo theme.
22:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that pig is scary.
22:42:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, consider: perhaps the Final Fantasy series jumped the shark long ago, and you should abandon rather than complain
22:43:30 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Butbut I *liked* FFXII! … Aside from the gameplay, that was absolutely positively terrible.
22:43:56 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, there's this kind of non-interactive game thing with really good graphics that's catching on.
22:44:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's called a 'film'; maybe you should try one?
22:44:55 <pikhq> Many of them suck. Just like the game industry, the film industry focuses on "oooh pretty" instead of... Merit.
22:45:09 <pikhq> And I strongly dislike it!
22:46:24 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, but consider that many, indeed most, games suck!
22:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Especially when gameplay is ignored!
22:47:05 <fizzie> Colors/Invert, what's wrong with that?
22:47:19 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, it's greyed out!
22:47:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, many things suck.
22:47:30 <fizzie> Are you in an indexed-color mode, then?
22:47:37 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't mean I can't be upset when things suck.
22:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I DON'T KNOW
22:47:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I JUST WANT TO INVERT AN IMAGE
22:47:47 <fizzie> Image/Mode/RGB?
22:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK
22:49:08 <fizzie> Anyway, even in indexed-color mode for me Colors/Value invert seems to do a full-image inversion. (Don't know if that's palette-index-dependent, though.)
22:49:59 <fizzie> Well, it's just the luminosity-channel inversion, not exactly the same thing.
22:50:50 <fizzie> Strange that it can do "Colors/Value invert" for an indexed-color image (by doing the operation for each of the palette entries, it seems) but not "Colors/Invert".
22:52:33 <fizzie> (The palette-based inverting ignores the selection, I guess whoever made those two filters had different opinions on what's sensible and what's not.)
22:56:09 <elliott> "Happy Creeper happy happy yay YAY!" http://painterlypack.net/picker/big/screenshots/happycreep.png
22:56:12 <elliott> --Painterly customiser
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22:57:26 <elliott> "I want to have the Halloween pig. н" http://painterlypack.net/picker/alternates/spookypig.png
22:57:30 <elliott> Is that just a mask or something?
22:58:19 <fizzie> Hard to say when they don't have the actual preview image there.
22:59:19 <fizzie> Incidentally, my own selections have "Happy Ghast happy Ghast yay yay yay! Happy!" selected.
22:59:48 <fizzie> (Couldn't help myself, it looked so happy.)
23:00:21 <fizzie> (http://painterlypack.net/picker/big/screenshots/happyghast.png)
23:04:49 <elliott> fizzie: Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
23:05:16 <elliott> fizzie: I'm enabling that in my Creepy Pack of Doom.
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23:55:00 <Vorpal> elliott, see /msg
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